From wingcat at pacbell.net  Thu Jul  1 00:03:13 2010
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2010 17:03:13 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] alternative gambling game, plus epsilon
Message-ID: <212727.76812.qm@web81607.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

--- On Wed, 6/30/10, Gregory Jones <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> Adrian wrote many interesting comments.

Thanks.

> I wrote (later on)?of how a team or non-duplication pool could get together and do this.? Good point, that just having individual buyers eliminate thier own duplicates would cause a slight anomaly to the buyers favor, from my sim,? ---* creating a very slight but marginally detectable anomaly that would look a little like weak?psi. *---? 
> ?
> It wouldn't be at all obvious how it was happening.? Is that cool or what?? {8-]
?
If it's that easy for you to deduce, it'd be on Mythbusters or similar.
A little interesting and cool, but.
?
> >...But, that would invite abuses (paying even less of that for
someone to process orders for you; you provide the capital that gets
invested)...
> ?
> Puzzling comment Adrian.? That isn't an abuse, but rather perfectly good business practice,

Ah - that's the problem.  This would presumably be presented as an
open, honest, and fair *gambling* system, yes?  To reduce it to a
reliable business, on the part of the player, is therefore contrary
to the expressed intent, and is therefore an "abuse".

Granted, that's "presented as", and the real intent might not have
been that.

> >...Even just $1000 per payout might be useful toward this end, though.
Those who know a bit about human psychology would know there are
certain numbers that many idiots will always pick regardless - such
as 123 and 111 - and simply assign those a practically 0% chance of
winning.
> 
> No need to put a feature in the software, for the game as proposed would never choose the favored numbers.? No sneaky code necessary.? {8-]

I said nothing about coding it. :P  Rather, pointing out that those
would never be chosen for that reason - so, the smart players would
simply not waste their money on those numbers.  (Likewise, the last
winning number would likely be something to avoid, for the reason
you stated.)



From spike66 at att.net  Thu Jul  1 00:50:13 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (Gregory Jones)
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2010 17:50:13 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] alternative gambling game, plus epsilon
In-Reply-To: <212727.76812.qm@web81607.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <528143.52263.qm@web81503.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



--- On Wed, 6/30/10, Adrian Tymes <wingcat at pacbell.net> wrote:
?
>...Ah - that's the problem.? This would presumably be presented as an
open, honest, and fair *gambling* system, yes?
?
Ja, but of course the term?gambling need?not be used, or even lotto for that matter, even though it resembles a lotto in some ways.? I would only insist?that it be perfectly out in the open?*exactly* what is being done.? It is a little like playing roulette without the wheel: everyone puts their bets down on the board in the dark, then the lights are turned on and the dealer pays off the?number with the?fewest chips on it.? It is gambling in a sense, that one is betting?on guessing the least popular number.
?
It is a paradox.? In the 50,000-limited 1100 game, it appears to be?that one has a 1 in?1000 chance of winning, but it is an illusion.? One actually has about a 1 in 1600?chance of winning.? If fewer than 50000 tickets are sold, the chances of winning actually decline.? If for instance less than 1000 people play, no one has any chance of winning, for at least one of the numbers must be unplayed.
?
Even if all the rules of the game are clearly stated and?well?known, I speculate that proles will *still* play the game.?
?
>... (Likewise, the last
winning number would likely be something to avoid, for the reason
you stated.)

Ja, but of course if the others followed?this line of reasoning, then a?fewer than average number of players would choose the last winning number, which would increase its probability of being the least-chosen, and thus become a repeat winner.? But if?other players followed this line of meta-reasoning, they might intentionally buy that number, reducing its chances of becoming a repeat winner.
?
{8^D
?
I love it.
?
This is such a cool paradox, it must have been discovered before now.? Anyone have a reference to this somewhere?
?
spike

?


?
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100630/7f2a6cc1/attachment.html>

From spike66 at att.net  Thu Jul  1 01:33:25 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (Gregory Jones)
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2010 18:33:25 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] alternative gambling game, plus epsilon
In-Reply-To: <528143.52263.qm@web81503.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <906327.79243.qm@web81503.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



--- On Wed, 6/30/10, Gregory Jones <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
?
>>... (Likewise, the last
winning number would likely be something to avoid, for the reason
you stated.)... Adrian
?
Ja, but of course if the others followed?this line of reasoning, then a?fewer than average number of players would choose the last winning number, which would increase its probability of being the least-chosen, and thus become a repeat winner.? But if?other players followed this line of meta-reasoning, they might intentionally buy that number, reducing its chances of becoming a repeat winner...spike
?
?
If even 40% of the players followed the lightning-never-strikes-twice philosophy, then one's chances of winning?are increased?to?about 29% by buying last round's winner.? However, if even?a?half of?a percent of the players do the same calculus I just did, they compensate for the others and the?chances of winning with that number?drop to below nominal.?? {8-]
?
spike
?
?
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100630/560b9578/attachment.html>

From ross.evans11 at gmail.com  Thu Jul  1 00:00:20 2010
From: ross.evans11 at gmail.com (Ross Evans)
Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2010 01:00:20 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Hitchens diagnosed with cancer
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikbqt8JgzWh95JTolFXgWqEdJMjqmoonIVFEF03@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTikbqt8JgzWh95JTolFXgWqEdJMjqmoonIVFEF03@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTilePXxHHch8nZF-djUrEXCqdr0qD4jcPJVVcA9I@mail.gmail.com>

2010/7/1 Dave Sill <sparge at gmail.com>

> BREAKING -- From Huffingtonpost.com
>
> Christopher Hitchens' Cancer: Author Undergoing Chemotherapy For
> Esophageal cancer More: Christopher Hitchens, Christopher Hitchens
> Cancer, Christopher Hitchens Esophageal Cancer, Media News
> Christopher Hitchens has been diagnosed with esophageal cancer.
>
> The Vanity Fair and Slate columnist and author of recent memoir
> Hitch 22 recently suspended his book tour for what was described as
> "personal reasons."
>
> Now, he reveals in a statement:
>
> I have been advised by my physician that I must undergo a course
> of chemotherapy on my esophagus. This advice seems persuasive
> to me. I regret having had to cancel so many engagements at such
> short notice. Hitchens, a well-known smoker, attempted in 2008 to
> quit but reportedly still smokes, according to a recent Washington
> Post article.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>

The fact he is having chemotherapy suggests the cancer is inoperable, and
may only become operable if treatment is sufficiently successful. Overall,
cancer of the oesophageal tissue has a pretty poor prognosis; about one
third of those diagnosed will live a year post diagnosis. It's one of a
worrying large number of cancers in which survival rates have barely moved
in fifty years.

Ross
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100701/458d805e/attachment.html>

From ross.evans11 at gmail.com  Thu Jul  1 01:39:42 2010
From: ross.evans11 at gmail.com (Ross Evans)
Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2010 02:39:42 +0100
Subject: [ExI] gaming reports
In-Reply-To: <4C2BDA32.10206@satx.rr.com>
References: <00ad01cb18ac$4ab79d60$ad753644@sx28047db9d36c>
	<4C2BDA32.10206@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTiln9yBEjaOR2d_65iU3ho97m-qtP4k4cDPv6nqc@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 12:58 AM, Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com>wrote:

> On 6/30/2010 6:30 PM, Frank McElligott wrote:
>
>>
>> Every month casinos report wins and losses to Atlantic City and Nevada
>> gaming commissions. They are part of the public record for all to see.
>>
>
> Good tip! Some interesting looking data here:
>
> <http://gaming.unlv.edu/jurisdictions.html>
>
> e.g.:
>
> <http://gaming.unlv.edu/media/longterm_nvgaming.pdf>
>
> where the house hold percentage jumps around a fair bit, year by year
> (6.04% in 2003 to 7.49% in 2007 & 2008, with a +0.61% overall trend
> 2000-2009). So much for the confident announcement that these huge
> statistics must be highly stable, making any psi (or other interfering)
> component blazingly obvious.
>
> So how is this degree of volatility possible, anyway? Degrees of despair
> and drunkenness might explain card games, but slot machines vary from 5.23%
> to 6.16% in eight years. If it just means they're crooked, and cook the
> books differently from year to year, that would invalidate any conclusions
> one might draw concerning supervenient effects.
>
> Damien Broderick
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>


Are the dice rolled the same number of times every year? The reels on the
slot machines rolled the same number of times? Of course not, and that
variation, is a major contributory factor to the year by year differences

Ross.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100701/fbfc5753/attachment.html>

From msd001 at gmail.com  Thu Jul  1 02:28:31 2010
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2010 22:28:31 -0400
Subject: [ExI] alternative gambling game
In-Reply-To: <929358.55279.qm@web81505.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <AANLkTilNlY5b-bEvQiIE10GKPWRvAiqTTVmM0QX6tOA6@mail.gmail.com>
	<929358.55279.qm@web81505.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinjKnZjs5k24K8drMS429Smenl4su8Im0WnoZLu@mail.gmail.com>

2010/6/30 Gregory Jones <spike66 at att.net>
> If the game is modified to where one inserts the money and then is given a randomly generated number, then the game comes out as I calculated, but greatly reduces the incentive to play, for it hands the lotto maker an open?invitation to cheat.? But video slots have that feature, and the proles still play.? I don't get that.


If you've ever watched a moth banging repeatedly into an incandescent
bulb it makes more sense.  The moth is wired to go towards the light
for whatever evolutionary purpose was originally served by moonlight
or reflective surfaces like water.  After the thousandth failed
attempt to reach the light, it will try again.  I imagine the
anticipation of winning is a more powerful attractor for the addicted
gambler than a loss or the cerebral gobbledegook of statistical odds.
The delusion of the next being the lucky play that wins and changes
the prole's life is more exciting than the reality that the next
million plays won't be any luckier than the most recent loss.



From msd001 at gmail.com  Thu Jul  1 02:32:39 2010
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2010 22:32:39 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Spies among us
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimOEUad-rtjGYAnY8knxKmDjEbAfoh8dy23YCnT@mail.gmail.com>
References: <201006301950.o5UJoCj9005979@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<785843.9590.qm@web81505.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<AANLkTimOEUad-rtjGYAnY8knxKmDjEbAfoh8dy23YCnT@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTim5MBDpmbmMNF2EOEupS5QjC7l-mnYyzj0LpBPQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jun 30, 2010 at 4:27 PM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I think if I was a 'deep-cover' spy I wouldn't flaunt my Russian
> friends and contacts.
> But maybe it was a double-bluff????
>

I think you ARE a 'deep-cover' spy because you aren't flaunting your
Russian friends and contacts.

I'm probably on a different kind of watch list because I don't have
enough friends and contacts on Facebook.  'gotta watch the reclusive
anti-social network types...


From wingcat at pacbell.net  Thu Jul  1 02:23:53 2010
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2010 19:23:53 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] alternative gambling game, plus epsilon
In-Reply-To: <906327.79243.qm@web81503.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <143336.84757.qm@web81606.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Quite.? The problem is, not all players will follow any given
strategy.? You know some people will do the
lightning-strikes-twice strat, just like some will do the
simple-numbers strat (111, 123, etc.) - but the
simple-numbers will likely draw a disproportionate number
of plays, just because those who follow it need spread
their bets across fewer numbers.

--- On Wed, 6/30/10, Gregory Jones <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

From: Gregory Jones <spike66 at att.net>
Subject: Re: [ExI] alternative gambling game, plus epsilon
To: "ExI chat list" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Date: Wednesday, June 30, 2010, 6:33 PM



--- On Wed, 6/30/10, Gregory Jones <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
?
>>... (Likewise, the last
winning number would likely be something to avoid, for the reason
you stated.)... Adrian
?
Ja, but of course if the others followed?this line of reasoning, then a?fewer than average number of players would choose the last winning number, which would increase its probability of being the least-chosen, and thus become a repeat winner.? But if?other players followed this line of meta-reasoning, they might intentionally buy that number, reducing its chances of becoming a repeat winner...spike
?
?
If even 40% of the players followed the lightning-never-strikes-twice philosophy, then one's chances of winning?are increased?to?about 29% by buying last round's winner.? However, if even?a?half of?a percent of the players do the same calculus I just did, they compensate for the others and the?chances of winning with that number?drop to below nominal.?? {8-]
?
spike
?
?
-----Inline Attachment Follows-----

_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100630/c68d1be8/attachment.html>

From thespike at satx.rr.com  Thu Jul  1 02:52:33 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2010 21:52:33 -0500
Subject: [ExI] gaming reports
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTiln9yBEjaOR2d_65iU3ho97m-qtP4k4cDPv6nqc@mail.gmail.com>
References: <00ad01cb18ac$4ab79d60$ad753644@sx28047db9d36c>	<4C2BDA32.10206@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTiln9yBEjaOR2d_65iU3ho97m-qtP4k4cDPv6nqc@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4C2C02F1.6060003@satx.rr.com>

On 6/30/2010 8:39 PM, Ross Evans wrote:

> Are the dice rolled the same number of times every year? The reels on
> the slot machines rolled the same number of times? Of course not, and
> that variation, is a major contributory factor to the year by year
> differences

Really? And how would that work?

Here's a much better account of slot machine mechanics, from a learned 
friend:

<In fact slot machines are not gambling devices, in the sense of playing 
odds, they are cash collection machines. Each slot is actually a 
stripped down computer with a cable link back to the corporate command 
and control center. The one I know best is International Games 
Technology which has its command center in Reno. Deep underground there 
is a very large room with literally hundreds of screens lining its 
walls. It looks very much like the NORAD center in the Colorado 
mountains, which I have also seen. Each screen represents a certain 
number of machines using split screens. An evaluation is made as to how 
much the machines should produce each day. In the project in which I was 
a partner in St. Petersburg, Russia, they were set at $150 a day. The 
algorithm for that room constantly changes the odds so that the machines 
produce a fixed amount of money each day. Because there is nothing about 
gambling -- from the point of view of the machine owner -- involved in 
this business they are not greedy. That is they don't try to make more 
than $150 a day per machine x the number of machines. Some machines make 
a bit more some less, but the room overall, with remarkable consistency, 
will average whatever the set number is, in this case $150. So the odds 
for any given machine are constantly in flux, and one machine may have 
one odds profile while a machine right next to it may have another. 
Slots don't have to be crooked; they are money trees that are remarkably 
predictable over a room. In the case I know there were 365 machines in 
five rooms. The venue gets a negotiated share, the owner of the machines 
(they are usually leased) makes a percentage, and the person/company 
putting the deal together makes a percentage. >

Damien Broderick


From thespike at satx.rr.com  Thu Jul  1 02:59:32 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2010 21:59:32 -0500
Subject: [ExI] never say never
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikn9enhVkW4xn7HVQzTZC8Veb3fsHfrIqJFZZAp@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1277553603.2126.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>	<4C26BED5.6070409@satx.rr.com>	<AANLkTinrp7FxNz3MOTgK4iGmEOvsAyzQb1MDMP0gJcK5@mail.gmail.com>	<4C28F4B0.2060208@satx.rr.com>	<AANLkTikC-t6dqL-2y30mZRZxglOtFcv7DariVpUBdh9p@mail.gmail.com>	<4C297175.4090308@satx.rr.com>	<57519E9F-6A51-4319-9F1F-BE3D1C315DFE@bellsouth.net>	<4C2984CF.6000905@satx.rr.com>	<BECB43BC-353A-49DD-9524-63150CE2E587@bellsouth.net>	<4C2997EF.3070206@satx.rr.com>	<61D8320D-D73D-4BCF-B272-3E4266B27514@bellsouth.net>	<4C2A22EE.8030601@satx.rr.com>	<009A85B4-D0DF-4979-9371-E0B55472A79A@bellsouth.net>	<4C2A37FB.9050300@satx.rr.com>	<35F4B5D4-1A8B-4FE7-BA05-C1C48D29BCD2@bellsouth.net>	<4C2AD77C.2090901@satx.rr.com>	<DB6B620A-A073-4C43-BAFD-0B87B6BF52B0@bellsouth.net>	<4C2AFBC5.9050400@satx.rr.com>	<26C8D291-8DAE-4945-B913-8A5E1977832A@bellsouth.net>	<4C2B7AAB.8020603@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTikn9enhVkW4xn7HVQzTZC8Veb3fsHfrIqJFZZAp@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4C2C0494.6060507@satx.rr.com>

On 6/30/2010 12:25 PM, Ross Evans wrote:

[JKC:]
>         With 730 drawings a year, each with a FAR larger sample size
>         than any
>         psi researcher could hope to see, and at least 25 years worth of
>         data, I
>         don't think it would be difficult at all to figure out how many
>         winners
>         you'd expect to see.

[me:]
>     Since you are so confident in your opinion, why don't you try that
>     (or locate a study by statisticians who have already done so) and
>     let us know how it works out.

> You are making the claim for psi phenomena, therefore the onus is on you
> to provide the relevant data.

Wrong. At this point, psi phenomena have nothing to do with it. The same 
assertion John made could be adduced to "prove" that there's never any 
trickery by cunning players, no tampering by cunning lottery or casino 
owners, just a vast, trustworthy Laplacean engine that churns out close 
to a perfectly predictable result year after year. Anyone who claims 
this is under precisely the same obligation to demonstrate it, using the 
available data.

Damien Broderick



From spike66 at att.net  Thu Jul  1 03:39:08 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (Gregory Jones)
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2010 20:39:08 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] gaming reports
In-Reply-To: <4C2C02F1.6060003@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <83554.97969.qm@web81505.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



--- On Wed, 6/30/10, Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com> wrote:
?
>...In fact slot machines are not gambling devices, in the sense of playing odds, they are cash collection machines. Each slot is actually a stripped down computer with a cable link back to the corporate command and control center... 
?
?
Do pardon my heavy postivity today, resulting from this very interesting and important discussion.
?
My friend from my early working days was a mechanical technican who had a second job or profitable hobby of refurbishing antique roulette wheels and slot machines.? This was in the early 80s when video slots were on the way in, but many customers specifically insisted on the old mechanical devices.? This is a fascinating world, full of illusions.
?
For instance, I fully contest an earlier comment I saw on here that a skilled?croupier could hit a particular?number more often than nominal.? I agree that some croupiers claim they can do that, but I do disagree.? This is what I meant by the comment?gambling is full of illusions, many of which are intentional.? When refurbishing a roulette wheel that may have been in constant use for twenty or more years, the first step is to remove the track that the ball goes around, called the race, which is the inner part of the stationary part called the bowl.? The race is placed on a specialized lathe and turned to exacting specifications, then polished, and checked for coplanarity and roundness, etc.? But the trueness of the race is an illusion, for if the race is out of true, it does not have any impact on how the game comes out.??A true race?just makes the ball go around in a regular and even orbit that looks right.
?
The wheel is then balanced, the bearings replaced, the runout drag set and so forth.? But again this is an illusion, for if the wheel is not balanced correctly, it still doesn't really affect the outcome of the game.? It just makes it look right, because you don't want the wheel to wobble or stop counter-rotating?before the ball drops off the race.? If it did either of these things, the game wouldn't look right, but it would still not favor any one particular number over any other.
?
The critical factor in a roulette wheel in making it a fair game is one you might not think of, even after reading this far.? Do you want to think it over before reading the next paragraph?? If so, I will ramble on a bit more and add verbiage so you can look away before reading the next paragraph, and yakkity yak and bla bla, and here is the really critical factor:
?
The critical factor in making a roulette wheel a fair game is in the length of the partitions between the numbers, which are called frets.? The frets must be even in length to make the game fair.? If they are not, the game will look fine, but will not be fair.? If the other things are wrong the game will look funny but will still be fair.
?
Like the 1100 game discussed?previously, the world of gambling?is full of illusions.? Profits are driven by the gambling public's misunderstanding of actual processes.
?
spike
?
?
?

?

?
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100630/c7fecbca/attachment.html>

From emlynoregan at gmail.com  Thu Jul  1 05:39:55 2010
From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn)
Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2010 15:09:55 +0930
Subject: [ExI] Spies among us
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTim5MBDpmbmMNF2EOEupS5QjC7l-mnYyzj0LpBPQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <201006301950.o5UJoCj9005979@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<785843.9590.qm@web81505.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<AANLkTimOEUad-rtjGYAnY8knxKmDjEbAfoh8dy23YCnT@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTim5MBDpmbmMNF2EOEupS5QjC7l-mnYyzj0LpBPQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimusiYXkTORQfJKtPIJeiyHkoBPQB9RDIfoa_uW@mail.gmail.com>

On 1 July 2010 12:02, Mike Dougherty <msd001 at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Jun 30, 2010 at 4:27 PM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I think if I was a 'deep-cover' spy I wouldn't flaunt my Russian
>> friends and contacts.
>> But maybe it was a double-bluff????
>>
>
> I think you ARE a 'deep-cover' spy because you aren't flaunting your
> Russian friends and contacts.
>
> I'm probably on a different kind of watch list because I don't have
> enough friends and contacts on Facebook. ?'gotta watch the reclusive
> anti-social network types...

Watch everyone, I say, you can't be too careful.

-- 
Emlyn

http://www.blahblahbleh.com - A simple youtube radio that I built
http://point7.wordpress.com - My blog
Find me on Facebook and Buzz



From kanzure at gmail.com  Thu Jul  1 06:08:40 2010
From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop)
Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2010 01:08:40 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: [tt] Genetic Code 2.0: Novel artificial proteins for
	industry and science
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTil9NDAb7Lvyb7qe2UlMc-InISSAALTnXxm2xGPQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTil9NDAb7Lvyb7qe2UlMc-InISSAALTnXxm2xGPQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinfy4kvBrKkURMJidT62e1Lpa0LOMEymb7VxBz5@mail.gmail.com>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Arlind Boshnjaku <arlindboshnjaku at yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 12:33 AM
Subject: [tt] Genetic Code 2.0: Novel artificial proteins for industry and
science
To: transhumanist news <tt at postbiota.org>


http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/06/100630110908.htm
Genetic Code 2.0: Novel Artificial Proteins for Industry and Science

ScienceDaily (June 30, 2010) ? The creation of synthetic proteins
plays an important role for economy and science. By the integration of
artificial amino acids in proteins (genetic code engineering), their
already existing qualities can be systematically improved, allowing
new biological features to arise. Now, scientists at the Max Planck
Institute of Biochemistry (MPIB) in Martinsried near Munich, Germany,
have succeeded in taking another important step in this research area:
For the first time, they were able to integrate three different
synthetic amino acids into one protein in a single experiment.

The research is published in the journal Angewandte Chemie (June 24, 2010).

Proteins are the main actors in our body: They transport substances,
convey messages or carry out vital processes in their role as
molecular machines. The "helmsmen of the cell" are composed of amino
acids, whose sequence is already defined by the heritable information
in every living being. The translation of this information during the
production of proteins (protein synthesis) is determined by the
genetic code. 20 amino acids form the standard set of which proteins
are built. In natural conditions, however, several hundred amino acids
can be found and, of course, new amino acids can also be produced in
the laboratory. With regard to their properties, they differ from the
20 standard amino acids, because of which, by their integration in
proteins, specific structural and biological characteristics of
proteins can be systematically changed. So far, only one type of
synthetic amino acid could be inserted into a protein during a single
experiment in a residue-specific manner; thus, only one property of a
protein could be modified at once.

Nediljko Budisa, head of the research group Molecular Biotechnology at
the MPIB, has now made important methodical progress in the area of
genetic code engineering. The scientists were able to substitute three
different natural amino acids by synthetic ones at the same time in a
single experiment. The biochemist is pleased: "The research area of
genetic code engineering and code extension has with this result
reached a new development phase."

Budisa's method could be of great importance, particularly for the
industry and economy, because the production of artificial proteins by
genetic code engineering in his view demonstrates a solid basis for
the development of new technologies. "During integration, synthetic
amino acids confer their characteristics to proteins. Thus, the
development will allow the synthesis of totally new classes of
products, whose chemical synthesis has not been possible so far by
conventional protein engineering using only the 20 standard amino
acids," explains Budisa regarding to future prospects. "Thanks to our
method, in the future it will be possible to tailor industrial
relevant proteins with novel properties: for example proteins
containing medical components."
_______________________________________________
tt mailing list
tt at postbiota.org
http://postbiota.org/mailman/listinfo/tt



-- 
- Bryan
http://heybryan.org/
1 512 203 0507
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100701/b8737430/attachment.html>

From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Thu Jul  1 08:27:36 2010
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2010 01:27:36 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Spies among us
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimusiYXkTORQfJKtPIJeiyHkoBPQB9RDIfoa_uW@mail.gmail.com>
References: <201006301950.o5UJoCj9005979@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<785843.9590.qm@web81505.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<AANLkTimOEUad-rtjGYAnY8knxKmDjEbAfoh8dy23YCnT@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTim5MBDpmbmMNF2EOEupS5QjC7l-mnYyzj0LpBPQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimusiYXkTORQfJKtPIJeiyHkoBPQB9RDIfoa_uW@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimy2XoJHO-nGYEzuxDXecdJtnLeVfHZCMXd-Yl4@mail.gmail.com>

Spike, of the Committee for Unextropian Activities stated:
JAYSUS!  A commie spy, right here all along!  OY FREAKING VEY!  They
walk among us my friends.  They quit carrying actual cards, back in
the 1950s, but they are here.  I see commies,  walking around like
regular people.  They don't see each other.  They only see what they
want to see.  They don't even know they are commies.
>>>

I just want to know if any Extropians were sexually seduced by this
Commie vixen!!  We must know what Extropian secrets may have been
compromised!!!!!

Hey wait..., what about "Natasha" Vita-More???  Oh my gosh, Max is in
grave danger!!!!!!!!!!!!

John  ; )



On 6/30/10, Emlyn <emlynoregan at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 1 July 2010 12:02, Mike Dougherty <msd001 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Wed, Jun 30, 2010 at 4:27 PM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> I think if I was a 'deep-cover' spy I wouldn't flaunt my Russian
>>> friends and contacts.
>>> But maybe it was a double-bluff????
>>>
>>
>> I think you ARE a 'deep-cover' spy because you aren't flaunting your
>> Russian friends and contacts.
>>
>> I'm probably on a different kind of watch list because I don't have
>> enough friends and contacts on Facebook. ?'gotta watch the reclusive
>> anti-social network types...
>
> Watch everyone, I say, you can't be too careful.
>
> --
> Emlyn
>
> http://www.blahblahbleh.com - A simple youtube radio that I built
> http://point7.wordpress.com - My blog
> Find me on Facebook and Buzz
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>



From giulio at gmail.com  Thu Jul  1 08:37:01 2010
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2010 10:37:01 +0200
Subject: [ExI] TransVision 2010, October 22-24 in Milan
Message-ID: <AANLkTinepmBBSX1hpfGzWMVHZK_GdbHOM3dh-dL4KzuC@mail.gmail.com>

http://transvision.cc/

TransVision 2010, October 22-24 in Milan

Transvision 2010 is a global transhumanist conference and community
convention, organized by several transhumanist activists, groups and
organizations, under the executive leadership of the Italian
Transhumanist Association (AIT) and with the collaboration of an
Advisory Board. The event will take place on October 22, 23 and 24,
2010 in Milan, Italy with many options for remote online access.

While Transvision 2010 is not organized by or connected with Humanity+
(formerly WTA), the organizer of previous Transvision conferences, we
wish to thank the Humanity+ Board for allowing the use of the name.

TransVision 2010 will be a very intense, informative, scientific as
well as entertainingly tour de force in contemporary transhumanist
thinking, activism, science, technology & innovation and grand
visionary dreams, with over 40 talks distributed over three days.
Join us to explore the scientific, technological, cultural, artistic
and social trends which could change our world beyond recognition and
may result in a singularity in only a few decades.

The first day will be mainly dedicated to the philosophical, cultural
and social aspects of transhumanism. We will also explore new forms of
artistic expressions and design inspired by transhumanist thinking.

The second day will be mainly dedicated to technology: we will cover
life extension, biotechnology and genetic engineering, cryonics and
brain preservation, whole brain emulation and mind uploading,
synthetic biology, virtual and augmented reality, artificial
intelligence, nanotechnology, converging technologies and the
technological singularity, and other transhumanist technologies,
either already emerging from the research labs and almost ready for
operational deployment, or still in a conceptual development phase.

The third day will be dedicated to the big picture, the wonderful
cosmic adventures in which the human race is about to embark, leaving
our little blue planed and spreading to the stars and beyond together
with our AI mind children. We will also cover the metaphysical,
spiritual, and even religious impact of transhumanist cosmic visions.

The conference program is packed with very well known and less known,
but also outstanding, speakers. The morning sessions are reserved for
invited talks, and the afternoon sessions are also open to contributed
talks by other participants. The official language of the conference
is English. We will also have some talks in Italian, for which
simultaneous translation will be provided. Besides the main talks, the
conference will feature round tables, debates, satellite meetings and
social events. Please contact us for any question that you might have,
register now, post a link to your blog, Twitter, Facebook etc., and
consider submitting your proposal for a talk.


From gts_2000 at yahoo.com  Thu Jul  1 15:01:53 2010
From: gts_2000 at yahoo.com (Gordon Swobe)
Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2010 08:01:53 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] mind body dualism
Message-ID: <732467.6723.qm@web36502.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

--- On Tue, 6/29/10, Stefano Vaj <stefano.vaj at gmail.com> wrote:

On 28 June 2010 00:28, Gordon Swobe <gts_2000 at yahoo.com> wrote:

>>> "The old concepts of mind-body dualism are turning out not
>>> to be true at all," Bargh said. "Our minds are deeply and organically
>>> linked to our bodies."

>> Heresy! lol.

> Really?

> I always thought that *this* was the orthodox position, beyond the 
> monotheistic or thinly secularised stuff on souls and psyches. 

Bargh's statement against dualism amounts to heresy here on ExI, I meant. 

It seems obvious to me that one must embrace a form of mind-body dualism
before accepting the belief, common here on ExI, that humans will someday
have the technology to upload their personalities into some digital realm
while leaving their organic bodies behind.

> That is, the "mind" is not something especially more esoteric nor has a 
> more independent reality than, say, "digestion". 

I agree completely.

I note also that digital simulations (or emulations) of digestion do not
actually digest food. Digital simulations of organic processes never actually perform the processes they simulate. They merely simulate those processes. For whatever reason a lot of people here on ExI think this rule does not apply to brain processes.

Most people here will agree that a digitally simulated stomach cannot
digest real food, but many of those same people will argue that a 
digitally simulated brain can think real thoughts. Mind-body dualism.

-gts






      


From jonkc at bellsouth.net  Thu Jul  1 16:21:37 2010
From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John Clark)
Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2010 12:21:37 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Sigh (was: never say never)
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimoF2nOyh7NqS3K1rmnr5mBD5gcATJFmbXYzUW9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1277553603.2126.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<4C269D20.8090005@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTimp2vzwgovSgcnEedm-Rev9kW6WaDZ7DMw22qPa@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C26AB88.2000009@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTinoxW4asA-zOnA8TJS806mAl0lfc8ArbR7NTRmu@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C26BED5.6070409@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTinrp7FxNz3MOTgK4iGmEOvsAyzQb1MDMP0gJcK5@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C28F4B0.2060208@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTikC-t6dqL-2y30mZRZxglOtFcv7DariVpUBdh9p@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C297175.4090308@satx.rr.com>
	<57519E9F-6A51-4319-9F1F-BE3D1C315DFE@bellsouth.net>
	<4C2984CF.6000905@satx.rr.com>
	<BECB43BC-353A-49DD-9524-63150CE2E587@bellsouth.net>
	<4C2997EF.3070206@satx.rr.com>
	<61D8320D-D73D-4BCF-B272-3E4266B27514@bellsouth.net>
	<4C2A22EE.8030601@satx.rr.com>
	<009A85B4-D0DF-4979-9371-E0B55472A79A@bellsouth.net>
	<4C2A37FB.9050300@satx.rr.com>
	<35F4B5D4-1A8B-4FE7-BA05-C1C48D29BCD2@bellsouth.net>
	<4C2AD77C.2090901@satx.rr.com>
	<DB6B620A-A073-4C43-BAFD-0B87B6BF52B0@bellsouth.net>
	<4C2AFBC5.9050400@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTimoF2nOyh7NqS3K1rmnr5mBD5gcATJFmbXYzUW9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <641C0BF8-A3D7-4277-A053-11390F516475@bellsouth.net>

On Jun 30, 2010, at 8:09 AM, Stefano Vaj wrote:
> 
> Are casinos' results infinitesimally but consistently worse over years
> and years than they should on a purely statistical basis? No idea...

Oh I think I have an idea, and if psi exists at all it just can't be infinitesimal. If the psi effect were anywhere near large enough for crummy scientists with teeny sample size to detect it then the effect would be obvious to a blind man in a fog bank when dealing with casinos with their HUGE sample size. In particular it would be obvious to government tax collectors who would be screaming bloody murder and asking why their take of the action is smaller than mathematicians say it should be. Casino operators would have to prove that psi is real or somebody is going to jail for tax avoidance. 

  John K Clark 




-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100701/18a7a2d0/attachment.html>

From wingcat at pacbell.net  Thu Jul  1 16:44:45 2010
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2010 09:44:45 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Sigh (was: never say never)
In-Reply-To: <641C0BF8-A3D7-4277-A053-11390F516475@bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <255021.19083.qm@web81602.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Or, psi is small enough that it can only reliably be detected with such huge
sample sizes, and even then the effect is small enough that it has been lost
in the noise (or "overhead" - an acceptable deviation from pure mathematical
models when dealing with the costs associated with running a real casino,
that don't appear in said models), which is why there have been such sporadic
results trying to reproduce it in labs with tiny sample sizes.

Of course, in that case, unless and until it can reliably be made use of, it's
practically the same as if it did not exist for most intents and purposes.

--- On Thu, 7/1/10, John Clark <jonkc at bellsouth.net> wrote:
Oh I think I have an idea, and if psi exists at all it just can't be infinitesimal. If the psi effect were anywhere near large enough for crummy scientists with teeny sample size to detect it then the effect would be obvious to a blind man in a fog bank when dealing with casinos with their HUGE sample size. In particular it would be obvious to government tax collectors who would be screaming bloody murder and asking why their take of the action is smaller than mathematicians say it should be. Casino operators would have to prove that psi is real or somebody is going to jail for tax avoidance.?
??John K Clark?





-----Inline Attachment Follows-----

_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100701/aa51470b/attachment.html>

From jonkc at bellsouth.net  Thu Jul  1 16:59:03 2010
From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John Clark)
Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2010 12:59:03 -0400
Subject: [ExI] mind body dualism
In-Reply-To: <732467.6723.qm@web36502.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <732467.6723.qm@web36502.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9CB9D4E5-8369-4321-B7F8-F7C9D8E6019C@bellsouth.net>

On Jul 1, 2010, at 11:01 AM, Gordon Swobe wrote:

> It seems obvious to me that one must embrace a form of mind-body dualism
> before accepting the belief, common here on ExI, that humans will someday
> have the technology to upload their personalities into some digital realm
> while leaving their organic bodies behind.

I agree completely, nouns (like the brain) and adjectives (like the mind) are 2 things not one thing, and if I think there are 2 things not one thing that must make me a dualist.

>> That is, the "mind" is not something especially more esoteric nor has a 
>> more independent reality than, say, "digestion". 
> 
> I agree completely.

Me too, digestion is what the gut does and mind is what the brain does.

>  I note also that digital simulations (or emulations) of digestion do not
> actually digest food.

I could be mistaken but I believe you may have mentioned that before, I know I am not mistaken when I say that all analogies have their limits and this is exactly where this one breaks down. The difference between real food and simulated food is very clear, but the difference between real arithmetic and simulated arithmetic is not, in fact the idea that there is a difference is nuts.

  John K Clark  


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100701/e5cc790a/attachment.html>

From sparge at gmail.com  Thu Jul  1 17:02:07 2010
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2010 13:02:07 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Sigh (was: never say never)
In-Reply-To: <255021.19083.qm@web81602.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <641C0BF8-A3D7-4277-A053-11390F516475@bellsouth.net> 
	<255021.19083.qm@web81602.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTiklqS4AnjQzomOlTGnPK0G18-G4-9MSOqpL43iR@mail.gmail.com>

2010/7/1 Adrian Tymes <wingcat at pacbell.net>

> Of course, in that case, unless and until it can reliably be made use of,
> it's
> practically the same as if it did not exist for most intents and purposes.


If psi is real, that's significant, whether or not there are immediate
practical applications, because it indicates that our understanding of how
things work is incomplete.

Electricity, nuclear fission/fusion, the laser, ..., could all have been
dismissed similarly back before they were understood and exploited. Luckily,
some researchers stayed open-minded, and huge breakthroughs with major
practical uses resulted.

-Dave
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100701/8ad657e4/attachment.html>

From wingcat at pacbell.net  Thu Jul  1 17:10:36 2010
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2010 10:10:36 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Sigh (was: never say never)
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTiklqS4AnjQzomOlTGnPK0G18-G4-9MSOqpL43iR@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <796891.92049.qm@web81607.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

--- On Thu, 7/1/10, Dave Sill <sparge at gmail.com> wrote:

From: Dave Sill <sparge at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ExI] Sigh (was: never say never)
To: "ExI chat list" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Date: Thursday, July 1, 2010, 10:02 AM

2010/7/1 Adrian Tymes <wingcat at pacbell.net>


Of course, in that case, unless and until it can reliably be made use of, it's
practically the same as if it did not exist for most intents and purposes.
If psi is real, that's significant, whether or not there are immediate practical applications, because it indicates that our understanding of how things work is incomplete.


Electricity, nuclear fission/fusion, the laser, ..., could all have been dismissed similarly back before they were understood and exploited. Luckily, some researchers stayed open-minded, and huge breakthroughs with major practical uses resulted.I said "most". ;)? There is a substantial difference between theoretical complete
understanding, and practical application to today's immediate concerns.

That's also why I was noting that it could be insignificant enough to have flown
beneath the radar in this way.? (Or it might not have.? Possibility is not proof.)
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100701/d1a957f6/attachment.html>

From jonkc at bellsouth.net  Thu Jul  1 17:25:22 2010
From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John Clark)
Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2010 13:25:22 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Sigh (was: never say never)
In-Reply-To: <255021.19083.qm@web81602.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <255021.19083.qm@web81602.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <8D93096D-DDC1-47B7-9B44-67E2A26DFF36@bellsouth.net>


On Jul 1, 2010, at 12:44 PM, Adrian Tymes wrote:

> Or, psi is small enough that it can only reliably be detected with such huge
> sample sizes


If psi is not detected in a large sample size then it sure as hell isn't going to be detected in a small one.

> and even then the effect is small enough that it has been lost
> in the noise 

Then as I've said it has not been detected.

> which is why there have been such sporadic results trying to reproduce it in labs with tiny sample sizes.

Or maybe psi only works in those who don't believe in it. You have a transcendental experience and become a true believer and so psi never works for you again. Only skeptics have psi ability :>)

 John K Clark


> 


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100701/c38bce6d/attachment.html>

From thespike at satx.rr.com  Thu Jul  1 18:08:21 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2010 13:08:21 -0500
Subject: [ExI] psi yet again
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinYPwtMNZZjuhl7Qm3SRrgzz8otmFboKbHr9VNM@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1277553603.2126.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>	<AANLkTingR7QSuKJQknpam8qVD1-z9JnrrgcYSlDvPhCb@mail.gmail.com>	<4C26954D.5020704@satx.rr.com>	<AANLkTikf4pcV-eOOSlGgQG474Thy4QP07dj2Fp4X5LwX@mail.gmail.com>	<4C269D20.8090005@satx.rr.com>	<AANLkTimp2vzwgovSgcnEedm-Rev9kW6WaDZ7DMw22qPa@mail.gmail.com>	<4C26AB88.2000009@satx.rr.com>	<AANLkTinoxW4asA-zOnA8TJS806mAl0lfc8ArbR7NTRmu@mail.gmail.com>	<4C26BED5.6070409@satx.rr.com>	<AANLkTinrp7FxNz3MOTgK4iGmEOvsAyzQb1MDMP0gJcK5@mail.gmail.com>	<4C28F4B0.2060208@satx.rr.com>	<AANLkTikC-t6dqL-2y30mZRZxglOtFcv7DariVpUBdh9p@mail.gmail.com>	<4C297175.4090308@satx.rr.com>	<57519E9F-6A51-4319-9F1F-BE3D1C315DFE@bellsouth.net>	<4C2984CF.6000905@satx.rr.com>	<BECB43BC-353A-49DD-9524-63150CE2E587@bellsouth.net>	<4C2997EF.3070206@satx.rr.com>	<AANLkTilCCdCG_F0c-8ENt2DXSxEUIbm-tGRlb6hq09xi@mail.gmail.com>	<AANLkTim39EQ9WuhfQBm5PQGteoMxXc85rvDarsAEWQ0C@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinYPwtMNZZjuhl7Qm3SRrgzz8otmFboKbHr9VNM@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4C2CD995.3020207@satx.rr.com>

At last, I have the final proof of psi needed to confound all you 
stubborn doubters!

========
Dear Friend

Good day and compliments, i know this letter will definitely come to
you as a huge surprise, but I implore you to take the time to go
through it carefully as the decision you make will go off a long way
to determine my future and continued existence. Please allow me to
introduce myself.I am SSgt. Eye-in-the-Skye W. Heiker, a US serving in
the Hqs.Remote Viewing Corps Iraq, III Corps-Camp Victory, which
Patrols the Baghdad province. I am desperately in need of assistance
and I have summoned up courage to contact you. I am presently in Iraq
and I found your contact particulars in an address journal. I am
seeking your assistance to evacuate the sum of $5,271,009(Five million
Two
Hundred and Seventy One Thousand and Nine USD) to the States or any
safe country of your choice, as far as I can be assured that it will
be safe in your care until I complete my service here. This is no
stolen money and there are no dangers involved.

This money was accumulatedby a secret paranormal investment group run
by the former Iraqi Regime SADDAM HUSSEIN, and came to light after the
investigations of the Remote Viewing Corps (ofwhich I am a proud
serving member) during Operations Sandtrap and Mullah-be-gone. I have
now found a secured way of getting the package out of Iraq for you to
pick up. I do not know for how long I will remain here as I have been
lucky to have survived 2 suicide bomb attacks by precognitive
alerts.This and other reasons put into consideration have prompted me
to reach out for help. If it might be of interest to you then
Endeavour to contact me and we would work out the necessary
formalities but i pray that you are iscreet about this mutually
benefiting relationship.
Contact me via my private box: ssgt.heiker419 at mail.psi so that I can
furnish you with more details.




From thespike at satx.rr.com  Thu Jul  1 18:52:45 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2010 13:52:45 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Sigh
In-Reply-To: <641C0BF8-A3D7-4277-A053-11390F516475@bellsouth.net>
References: <mailman.1.1277553603.2126.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>	<AANLkTinoxW4asA-zOnA8TJS806mAl0lfc8ArbR7NTRmu@mail.gmail.com>	<4C26BED5.6070409@satx.rr.com>	<AANLkTinrp7FxNz3MOTgK4iGmEOvsAyzQb1MDMP0gJcK5@mail.gmail.com>	<4C28F4B0.2060208@satx.rr.com>	<AANLkTikC-t6dqL-2y30mZRZxglOtFcv7DariVpUBdh9p@mail.gmail.com>	<4C297175.4090308@satx.rr.com>	<57519E9F-6A51-4319-9F1F-BE3D1C315DFE@bellsouth.net>	<4C2984CF.6000905@satx.rr.com>	<BECB43BC-353A-49DD-9524-63150CE2E587@bellsouth.net>	<4C2997EF.3070206@satx.rr.com>	<61D8320D-D73D-4BCF-B272-3E4266B27514@bellsouth.net>	<4C2A22EE.8030601@satx.rr.com>	<009A85B4-D0DF-4979-9371-E0B55472A79A@bellsouth.net>	<4C2A37FB.9050300@satx.rr.com>	<35F4B5D4-1A8B-4FE7-BA05-C1C48D29BCD2@bellsouth.net>	<4C2AD77C.2090901@satx.rr.com>	<DB6B620A-A073-4C43-BAFD-0B87B6BF52B0@bellsouth.net>	<4C2AFBC5.9050400@satx.rr.com>	<AANLkTimoF2nOyh7NqS3K1rmnr5mBD5gcATJFmbXYzUW9@mail.gmail.com>
	<641C0BF8-A3D7-4277-A053-11390F516475@bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <4C2CE3FD.9080801@satx.rr.com>

On 7/1/2010 11:21 AM, John Clark wrote:

> if psi exists at all it just can't be infinitesimal.

Of course. "Infinitesimal" is overstating the case. As Prof. Utts has 
noted, the effect size of laboratory psi using protocols such as 
ganzfeld is about the same as the effect size that allowed medical 
scientists to know that small amounts of aspirin daily mitigate the 
damage done by heart attacks.

> If the psi effect
> were anywhere near large enough for crummy scientists with teeny sample
> size to detect it then the effect would be obvious to a blind man in a
> fog bank when dealing with casinos with their HUGE sample size.

You keep saying this without offering any argument beyond assertion. 
I've already shown that in the Florida lotteries you mentioned earlier, 
the volatility is very much greater than any psi results found using 
non-selected untrained subjects.

The way reductionist science works is to make a toy model of some part 
of the world, removing as much extranaeous noise as possible, and then 
looking for a proposed salient effect. Eventually the results can be 
imported back into the larger world. Generally speaking, there's too 
damned much happening all at once in uncontrolled events to draw any 
useful conclusions, which is why scientists used lab bench experiments 
to study electricity rather than standing in the middle of thunderstorms.

 > In
> particular it would be obvious to government tax collectors who would be
> screaming bloody murder and asking why their take of the action is
> smaller than mathematicians say it should be. Casino operators would
> have to prove that psi is real or somebody is going to jail for tax
> avoidance.

You might be right, but how would that happen? I don't know much about 
lotteries (other than Tattslotto in Australia, where I have some 
800,000,000 data points in my computer), but doesn't the government 
always take a declared percentage *off the top*--that is, from the 
amount paid by customers? How could psi change that? But I might be 
wrong--please post the details of your analysis.

Damien Broderick



From nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk  Thu Jul  1 19:38:48 2010
From: nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk (Tom Nowell)
Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2010 19:38:48 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [ExI] Libertarian-spotting field guide
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1277985604.8802.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <912945.79061.qm@web27006.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

http://www.leftycartoons.com/the-24-types-of-libertarian/

Hey, I found it funny. Confess it - how many of us at one point or another had a flirtation with the "too much Heinlein" school of libertarian thought?

Tom


      



From spike66 at att.net  Thu Jul  1 19:40:37 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (Gregory Jones)
Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2010 12:40:37 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] nigerian form letters, was: Re:  psi yet again
In-Reply-To: <4C2CD995.3020207@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <31690.51743.qm@web81504.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



--- On Thu, 7/1/10, Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com> wrote:
?
>...Good day and compliments, i know this letter will definitely come to
you as a huge surprise, but I implore you to take the time to go
through it carefully as the decision you make will go off a long way...


Hilarious send up of typical Nigerian spam.? {8^D
?
Question please.? Most of us here have learned to filter spam letters like the one Damien used as a template for parody, but it brings up an interesting question: why are there so many versions of nearly the same thing?? It seems to follow a pattern:? 
?
Greetings, [whoever you are, I have no idea, but] I have heard that you are a reliable person, good Christian, [and so forth] and I want you please to help me [insert awkward non-American non-British English generously] to extract from [insert some benighted hellhole somewhere outside the mainstream of civilization, preferrably with mineral or oil holdings and a corrupt dictator] the sum of $x,xxx,xxx.xx, [xx million, etc, [spell out the amount of cash down to the cents?for some bizarre reason, perhaps assuming that the unknown but?honest and?reliable recipient can read words but not numbers.]]
?
For your good Christian cooperation, to help [insert surviving family member or charity rob their country] I offer you [insert percentage of the ill-gotten loot.]? Please hurry [because I am so very eager to hand over a buttload of money to you] give me your bank account numbers, credit card numbers, mother's maiden name, [and anything else I might use to rob you blind] so I know you are the unknown person I have heard so much about [halfway across the globe] as being so very honest and trustworthy?[and so forth.]
?
?
Question please Extro-friends, why is this particular boneheaded scam so common?? Is there *anyone* stupid enough to fall for it?? Why are there so many of them?? Is there an English textbook somewhere in Nigeria where they instruct children as a classroom exercise to write their own version of this old gag?? Or has someone figured out a way to generate them in arbitrary quantities by computer, and send them out, like an auto-loading spam gun?
?
spike
?
?
?
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100701/d740dfd5/attachment.html>

From nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk  Thu Jul  1 19:41:33 2010
From: nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk (Tom Nowell)
Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2010 19:41:33 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [ExI] Spies among us
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1277985604.8802.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <351843.21316.qm@web27004.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

John Grigg wrote:
" wait..., what about "Natasha" Vita-More???  Oh my gosh, Max is in
grave danger!!!!!!!!!!!!

John  ; )"

Don't worry John - Max was caught passing futurological secrets to the USA in the 1980s, that's why he defected and wasn't allowed to return to the UK until this year. "Natasha" is the code name of his CIA handler who also handles CIA infiltration of avant-garde artistic circles.

Tom 


      



From thespike at satx.rr.com  Thu Jul  1 20:47:53 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2010 15:47:53 -0500
Subject: [ExI] nigerian form letters, was: Re:  psi yet again
In-Reply-To: <31690.51743.qm@web81504.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <31690.51743.qm@web81504.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4C2CFEF9.4050502@satx.rr.com>

On 7/1/2010 2:40 PM, Gregory Jones wrote:

> Hilarious send up of typical Nigerian spam.  {8^D
> Question please.  Most of us here have learned to filter spam letters
> like the one Damien used as a template for parody

Nope, it was a real spam.


From pharos at gmail.com  Thu Jul  1 20:54:59 2010
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2010 21:54:59 +0100
Subject: [ExI] nigerian form letters, was: Re: psi yet again
In-Reply-To: <31690.51743.qm@web81504.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <4C2CD995.3020207@satx.rr.com>
	<31690.51743.qm@web81504.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikwtCmw2QqGlt0DqPu9nwefianNlz6l0p5kbyIx@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/1/10, Gregory Jones wrote:
>
> Question please Extro-friends, why is this particular boneheaded scam so common?
> Is there *anyone* stupid enough to fall for it?  Why are there so many of them?
> Is there an English textbook somewhere in Nigeria where they instruct children as
> a classroom exercise to write their own version of this old gag?  Or has someone
> figured out a way to generate them in arbitrary quantities by computer, and send
> them out, like an auto-loading spam gun?
>
>

Wikipedia has the story:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advance-fee_fraud>

It is big business. They steal 100s of millions of dollars every year.
They get one or two interested replies for every thousand emails, and
they send out *millions*.

Quote:
Many operations are professionally organized in Nigeria, with offices,
working fax numbers, and often contacts at government offices. The
victim who attempts to research the background of the offer often
finds that all pieces fit together. Such scammers can often lure
wealthy investors, investment groups, or other business entities into
scams resulting in multi-million dollar losses. However, many scammers
are part of less organized gangs or are operating independently; such
scammers have reduced access to the above connections and thus have
little success with wealthier investors or business entities
attempting to research them, but are still convincing to middle-class
individuals and small businesses, and can bilk hundreds of thousands
of dollars from such victims.
-----------------------


BillK


From Frankmac at ripco.com  Thu Jul  1 21:28:57 2010
From: Frankmac at ripco.com (Frank McElligott)
Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2010 17:28:57 -0400
Subject: [ExI] gaming reports
Message-ID: <00c601cb1964$6d4d5640$ad753644@sx28047db9d36c>

    Their are some who play in the same league who can not throw the ball into the ocean, Check out Wilt Chamberlain or Shaq O'Neil.
    The wide difference  in performance is Practice, Form and More practice but most important is freeing the mind of distractions. Get the form right and practice will cause muscle memory to take over as long as the mind is free. Basket is 15 ft away and 10 ft high. Right form and muscle memory do the rest. 
    To our friends spinning the ball in roulette, He/she is taught to vary the speed of the ball on the race, but that is sometimes harder than you think. He/she spins at the rate of 60 times an hour sometimes four hours a day, 5 days a week.  That my friends is over fifty thousand times a year.  Once you get bored(free mind)  the memory muscles take over and on the   next spin the ball tends to repeat it's drop point of the pervious spin . If the wheel is at the same speed or close to the same speed as the previous spin, and the ball is released at the same speed as before, it will land in the same GENERAL area.
    Pascal was good but the gambler's in this world found the flaw in this game.  Why it still exists is simple;  the casino's do all kind of tricks to stop the player from winning.  Different balls, spin different directions, forcing the dealer spinning to use both hands, but if you want to spend you life in a casino watching a ball  spinning around a race go ahead you can win a small amount, but remember if you win to much  of their money Las Vegas  Casino's will bar you from playing:)
    Find me an old croupier who is bored and you will see that all this is possible, you just have to look for that old geezer the next time you visit a casino.
    Read a book "beating Roulette"  years ago, and  it purported the same thing. If you can find the book and read it, you can beat roulette:) I never could.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100701/baa5fe11/attachment.html>

From ross.evans11 at gmail.com  Thu Jul  1 21:33:15 2010
From: ross.evans11 at gmail.com (Ross Evans)
Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2010 22:33:15 +0100
Subject: [ExI] psi yet again
In-Reply-To: <4C2CD995.3020207@satx.rr.com>
References: <mailman.1.1277553603.2126.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<AANLkTingR7QSuKJQknpam8qVD1-z9JnrrgcYSlDvPhCb@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C26954D.5020704@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTikf4pcV-eOOSlGgQG474Thy4QP07dj2Fp4X5LwX@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C269D20.8090005@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTimp2vzwgovSgcnEedm-Rev9kW6WaDZ7DMw22qPa@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C26AB88.2000009@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTinoxW4asA-zOnA8TJS806mAl0lfc8ArbR7NTRmu@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C26BED5.6070409@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTinrp7FxNz3MOTgK4iGmEOvsAyzQb1MDMP0gJcK5@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C28F4B0.2060208@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTikC-t6dqL-2y30mZRZxglOtFcv7DariVpUBdh9p@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C297175.4090308@satx.rr.com>
	<57519E9F-6A51-4319-9F1F-BE3D1C315DFE@bellsouth.net>
	<4C2984CF.6000905@satx.rr.com>
	<BECB43BC-353A-49DD-9524-63150CE2E587@bellsouth.net>
	<4C2997EF.3070206@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTilCCdCG_F0c-8ENt2DXSxEUIbm-tGRlb6hq09xi@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTim39EQ9WuhfQBm5PQGteoMxXc85rvDarsAEWQ0C@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinYPwtMNZZjuhl7Qm3SRrgzz8otmFboKbHr9VNM@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C2CD995.3020207@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimK26hk5LPtt5trIp9Jx8O9eL8CP0jsm-aQSIwo@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 7:08 PM, Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com>wrote:

> At last, I have the final proof of psi needed to confound all you stubborn
> doubters!
>
> ========
> Dear Friend
>
>
> Good day and compliments, i know this letter will definitely come to
> you as a huge surprise, but I implore you to take the time to go
> through it carefully as the decision you make will go off a long way
> to determine my future and continued existence. Please allow me to
> introduce myself.I am SSgt. Eye-in-the-Skye W. Heiker, a US serving in
> the Hqs.Remote Viewing Corps Iraq, III Corps-Camp Victory, which
> Patrols the Baghdad province. I am desperately in need of assistance
> and I have summoned up courage to contact you. I am presently in Iraq
> and I found your contact particulars in an address journal. I am
> seeking your assistance to evacuate the sum of $5,271,009(Five million
> Two
> Hundred and Seventy One Thousand and Nine USD) to the States or any
> safe country of your choice, as far as I can be assured that it will
> be safe in your care until I complete my service here. This is no
> stolen money and there are no dangers involved.
>
> This money was accumulatedby a secret paranormal investment group run
> by the former Iraqi Regime SADDAM HUSSEIN, and came to light after the
> investigations of the Remote Viewing Corps (ofwhich I am a proud
> serving member) during Operations Sandtrap and Mullah-be-gone. I have
> now found a secured way of getting the package out of Iraq for you to
> pick up. I do not know for how long I will remain here as I have been
> lucky to have survived 2 suicide bomb attacks by precognitive
> alerts.This and other reasons put into consideration have prompted me
> to reach out for help. If it might be of interest to you then
> Endeavour to contact me and we would work out the necessary
> formalities but i pray that you are iscreet about this mutually
> benefiting relationship.
> Contact me via my private box: ssgt.heiker419 at mail.psi so that I can
> furnish you with more details.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>


Given your demonstrated credulity I am surprised you didn't  fall for it.

Ross
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100701/b72b7d7c/attachment.html>

From thespike at satx.rr.com  Thu Jul  1 21:44:58 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2010 16:44:58 -0500
Subject: [ExI] psi yet again
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimK26hk5LPtt5trIp9Jx8O9eL8CP0jsm-aQSIwo@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1277553603.2126.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>	<AANLkTikf4pcV-eOOSlGgQG474Thy4QP07dj2Fp4X5LwX@mail.gmail.com>	<4C269D20.8090005@satx.rr.com>	<AANLkTimp2vzwgovSgcnEedm-Rev9kW6WaDZ7DMw22qPa@mail.gmail.com>	<4C26AB88.2000009@satx.rr.com>	<AANLkTinoxW4asA-zOnA8TJS806mAl0lfc8ArbR7NTRmu@mail.gmail.com>	<4C26BED5.6070409@satx.rr.com>	<AANLkTinrp7FxNz3MOTgK4iGmEOvsAyzQb1MDMP0gJcK5@mail.gmail.com>	<4C28F4B0.2060208@satx.rr.com>	<AANLkTikC-t6dqL-2y30mZRZxglOtFcv7DariVpUBdh9p@mail.gmail.com>	<4C297175.4090308@satx.rr.com>	<57519E9F-6A51-4319-9F1F-BE3D1C315DFE@bellsouth.net>	<4C2984CF.6000905@satx.rr.com>	<BECB43BC-353A-49DD-9524-63150CE2E587@bellsouth.net>	<4C2997EF.3070206@satx.rr.com>	<AANLkTilCCdCG_F0c-8ENt2DXSxEUIbm-tGRlb6hq09xi@mail.gmail.com>	<AANLkTim39EQ9WuhfQBm5PQGteoMxXc85rvDarsAEWQ0C@mail.gmail.com>	<AANLkTinYPwtMNZZjuhl7Qm3SRrgzz8otmFboKbHr9VNM@mail.gmail.com>	<4C2CD995.3020207@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTimK26hk5LPtt5trIp9Jx8O9eL8CP0jsm-aQSIwo@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4C2D0C5A.7030806@satx.rr.com>

On 7/1/2010 4:33 PM, Ross Evans wrote:

> Given your demonstrated credulity I am surprised you didn't  fall for it.

Given your demonstrated and repeated incivility, I am surprised you're 
still here.

Damien Broderick


From ross.evans11 at gmail.com  Thu Jul  1 22:05:09 2010
From: ross.evans11 at gmail.com (Ross Evans)
Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2010 23:05:09 +0100
Subject: [ExI] psi yet again
In-Reply-To: <4C2D0C5A.7030806@satx.rr.com>
References: <mailman.1.1277553603.2126.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<AANLkTikf4pcV-eOOSlGgQG474Thy4QP07dj2Fp4X5LwX@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C269D20.8090005@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTimp2vzwgovSgcnEedm-Rev9kW6WaDZ7DMw22qPa@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C26AB88.2000009@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTinoxW4asA-zOnA8TJS806mAl0lfc8ArbR7NTRmu@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C26BED5.6070409@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTinrp7FxNz3MOTgK4iGmEOvsAyzQb1MDMP0gJcK5@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C28F4B0.2060208@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTikC-t6dqL-2y30mZRZxglOtFcv7DariVpUBdh9p@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C297175.4090308@satx.rr.com>
	<57519E9F-6A51-4319-9F1F-BE3D1C315DFE@bellsouth.net>
	<4C2984CF.6000905@satx.rr.com>
	<BECB43BC-353A-49DD-9524-63150CE2E587@bellsouth.net>
	<4C2997EF.3070206@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTilCCdCG_F0c-8ENt2DXSxEUIbm-tGRlb6hq09xi@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTim39EQ9WuhfQBm5PQGteoMxXc85rvDarsAEWQ0C@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinYPwtMNZZjuhl7Qm3SRrgzz8otmFboKbHr9VNM@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C2CD995.3020207@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTimK26hk5LPtt5trIp9Jx8O9eL8CP0jsm-aQSIwo@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C2D0C5A.7030806@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimzz1FGB3rKYUSTAfjppBTsv-_duQ-QUytKrHHo@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 10:44 PM, Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com>wrote:

> On 7/1/2010 4:33 PM, Ross Evans wrote:
>
>  Given your demonstrated credulity I am surprised you didn't  fall for it.
>>
>
> Given your demonstrated and repeated incivility, I am surprised you're
> still here.
>
> Damien Broderick
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>


This surprise bespeaks your lack of Jedi ability. Much practise you must
hmmm.

Ross
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100701/b8dd97ab/attachment.html>

From spike66 at att.net  Thu Jul  1 23:26:07 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (Gregory Jones)
Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2010 16:26:07 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] gaming reports
In-Reply-To: <00c601cb1964$6d4d5640$ad753644@sx28047db9d36c>
Message-ID: <208170.18413.qm@web81507.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



--- On Thu, 7/1/10, Frank McElligott <Frankmac at ripco.com> wrote:
?
>...??? Find me an old croupier who is bored and you will see that all this is possible, you just have to look for that old geezer the next time you visit a casino... Frank

The world of gambling is full of illusions, some accidental, some intentional, some felonious, some having to do with human?nature and?difficult to explain.??Why is it that we?gaze into a camp fire on a gentle summer evening?? Why is it this video is so easy to watch for all four minutes??
?
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5677789064911434993#
?
This is a nice wheel this guy has in the video.? Note the design, a classic European.? It has only one green, instead of the American wheels which have two greens.? (The house wins on green.)? One like that in good condition is worth many thousands, more if it has been in use at a casino for a few decades, more still if that casino is one of the famous biggies, and still more if the casino is illegal but well known.
?
The roulette wheel seems to have a hypnotic effect that is hard to explain.? We can easily imagine old croupiers who learn how to spot the marks he can cheat by paying off less than 36 to 1, by seeing who has become too drunk to count their chips, or has become so mesmerized by the spinning ball they miss the sleight of hand, they miss the?wrong colored chip being handed out at the win, or the stack that is one short.? 
?
It is easy to imagine a waitress and a croupier working together with some kind of subtle hand signal to indicate a big roller, so that the waitress intentionally mixes his free?drinks a bit stronger and brings them a bit more often, to loosen his wallet.? I am no expert on any of this, but my imagination runs wild.? A croupier has a boring job.? He stands around doing a mindless repetitive task all day, watching, watching, watching...? Is it surprising that some, perhaps most of them, figure out ways to cheat undetected?

I do contest the notion that any croupier?could favor any certain number over any other by the way they spin the ball.? Frank if you disagree, no problem, I am cool with having that matter unresolved.? {8-]
?
spike
?
?

?
?
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100701/2140b8e0/attachment.html>

From msd001 at gmail.com  Fri Jul  2 00:28:55 2010
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2010 20:28:55 -0400
Subject: [ExI] mind body dualism
In-Reply-To: <9CB9D4E5-8369-4321-B7F8-F7C9D8E6019C@bellsouth.net>
References: <732467.6723.qm@web36502.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<9CB9D4E5-8369-4321-B7F8-F7C9D8E6019C@bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimwiNVV71GR2wIMTO5sxOHGy_UfQAQ2VdouyNOu@mail.gmail.com>

2010/7/1 John Clark <jonkc at bellsouth.net>:
> I could be mistaken but I believe you may have mentioned that before, I know
> I am not mistaken when I say that all analogies have their limits and this
> is exactly where this one breaks down. The difference between real food and
> simulated food is very clear, but the difference between real arithmetic and
> simulated arithmetic is not, in fact the idea that there is a difference is
> nuts.

Real nuts or simulated nuts?


From msd001 at gmail.com  Fri Jul  2 00:32:54 2010
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2010 20:32:54 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Libertarian-spotting field guide
In-Reply-To: <912945.79061.qm@web27006.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.1.1277985604.8802.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<912945.79061.qm@web27006.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTim2UCv5qW9gJevs-a5bLsUTOpYMJf24GS54Ry_u@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 3:38 PM, Tom Nowell <nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> http://www.leftycartoons.com/the-24-types-of-libertarian/
>
> Hey, I found it funny. Confess it - how many of us at one point or another had a flirtation with the "too much Heinlein" school of libertarian thought?

I first read that as "too much Heineken"...

'must have been a different school.


From Frankmac at ripco.com  Fri Jul  2 01:18:46 2010
From: Frankmac at ripco.com (Frank McElligott)
Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2010 21:18:46 -0400
Subject: [ExI] game reports
Message-ID: <003101cb1984$885f8550$ad753644@sx28047db9d36c>

Spike;

it's resolved,

Frank

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100701/9bf02a8c/attachment.html>

From thespike at satx.rr.com  Fri Jul  2 05:53:31 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2010 00:53:31 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Sigh
In-Reply-To: <4C2CE3FD.9080801@satx.rr.com>
References: <mailman.1.1277553603.2126.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>	<4C26BED5.6070409@satx.rr.com>	<AANLkTinrp7FxNz3MOTgK4iGmEOvsAyzQb1MDMP0gJcK5@mail.gmail.com>	<4C28F4B0.2060208@satx.rr.com>	<AANLkTikC-t6dqL-2y30mZRZxglOtFcv7DariVpUBdh9p@mail.gmail.com>	<4C297175.4090308@satx.rr.com>	<57519E9F-6A51-4319-9F1F-BE3D1C315DFE@bellsouth.net>	<4C2984CF.6000905@satx.rr.com>	<BECB43BC-353A-49DD-9524-63150CE2E587@bellsouth.net>	<4C2997EF.3070206@satx.rr.com>	<61D8320D-D73D-4BCF-B272-3E4266B27514@bellsouth.net>	<4C2A22EE.8030601@satx.rr.com>	<009A85B4-D0DF-4979-9371-E0B55472A79A@bellsouth.net>	<4C2A37FB.9050300@satx.rr.com>	<35F4B5D4-1A8B-4FE7-BA05-C1C48D29BCD2@bellsouth.net>	<4C2AD77C.2090901@satx.rr.com>	<DB6B620A-A073-4C43-BAFD-0B87B6BF52B0@bellsouth.net>	<4C2AFBC5.9050400@satx.rr.com>	<AANLkTimoF2nOyh7NqS3K1rmnr5mBD5gcATJFmbXYzUW9@mail.gmail.com>	<641C0BF8-A3D7-4277-A053-11390F516475@bellsouth.net>
	<4C2CE3FD.9080801@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <4C2D7EDB.9020205@satx.rr.com>

On 7/1/2010 1:52 PM, I wrote:

[JKC:]
>> In particular it would be obvious to government tax collectors who would be
>> screaming bloody murder and asking why their take of the action is
>> smaller than mathematicians say it should be. Casino operators would
>> have to prove that psi is real or somebody is going to jail for tax
>> avoidance.

> doesn't the government
> always take a declared percentage *off the top*--that is, from the
> amount paid by customers?

My wife the US tax lawyer assures me that this is correct.

> How could psi change that?

I'm still waiting eagerly to hear your explanation of how this 
surprising tax outrage is meant to happen.

Damien Broderick



From pharos at gmail.com  Fri Jul  2 06:58:11 2010
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 07:58:11 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Sigh
In-Reply-To: <4C2D7EDB.9020205@satx.rr.com>
References: <mailman.1.1277553603.2126.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<4C26BED5.6070409@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTinrp7FxNz3MOTgK4iGmEOvsAyzQb1MDMP0gJcK5@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C28F4B0.2060208@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTikC-t6dqL-2y30mZRZxglOtFcv7DariVpUBdh9p@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C297175.4090308@satx.rr.com>
	<57519E9F-6A51-4319-9F1F-BE3D1C315DFE@bellsouth.net>
	<4C2984CF.6000905@satx.rr.com>
	<BECB43BC-353A-49DD-9524-63150CE2E587@bellsouth.net>
	<4C2997EF.3070206@satx.rr.com>
	<61D8320D-D73D-4BCF-B272-3E4266B27514@bellsouth.net>
	<4C2A22EE.8030601@satx.rr.com>
	<009A85B4-D0DF-4979-9371-E0B55472A79A@bellsouth.net>
	<4C2A37FB.9050300@satx.rr.com>
	<35F4B5D4-1A8B-4FE7-BA05-C1C48D29BCD2@bellsouth.net>
	<4C2AD77C.2090901@satx.rr.com>
	<DB6B620A-A073-4C43-BAFD-0B87B6BF52B0@bellsouth.net>
	<4C2AFBC5.9050400@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTimoF2nOyh7NqS3K1rmnr5mBD5gcATJFmbXYzUW9@mail.gmail.com>
	<641C0BF8-A3D7-4277-A053-11390F516475@bellsouth.net>
	<4C2CE3FD.9080801@satx.rr.com> <4C2D7EDB.9020205@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikT_vz7oTRgRqzwmT0xdozjFrAhDRSLMHPttb81@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/2/10, Damien Broderick wrote:
> > doesn't the government
> > always take a declared percentage *off the top*--that is, from the
> > amount paid by customers?
> >
>
>  My wife the US tax lawyer assures me that this is correct.
>
>

>From Casino taxation in the United States
by John E. Anderson | June, 2005 |
<http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_hb3356/is_2_58/ai_n29194031/pg_3/>

All states in the U.S. that permit commercial casinos impose some form
of wagering tax. The precise definition of the tax base varies from
state to state, but the essential tax base in all cases is a form of
adjusted gross receipts (AGR), or gross gambling receipts minus payout
for prizes.
(There are other taxes as well).
-------------------------------


This is what I would expect as it is problematic to tax money the
casinos don't have.

And this would in theory allow for psi aided gamblers to make big
profits and reduce the government tax take. However, practical
considerations like how the casinos treat people who win over the odds
would quickly put a stop to any excessive wins.


BillK


From bbenzai at yahoo.com  Fri Jul  2 08:07:41 2010
From: bbenzai at yahoo.com (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 01:07:41 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] mind body dualism
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1001.1278026776.10820.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <924795.57102.qm@web114413.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

Gordon Swobe <gts_2000 at yahoo.com> tediously reiterated:
 
> It seems obvious to me that one must embrace a form of
> mind-body dualism
> before accepting the belief, common here on ExI, that
> humans will someday
> have the technology to upload their personalities into some
> digital realm
> while leaving their organic bodies behind.

,,,

> Most people here will agree that a digitally simulated
> stomach cannot
> digest real food, but many of those same people will argue
> that a 
> digitally simulated brain can think real thoughts.
> Mind-body dualism.


<Groan>
Please, not again!
Don't start this stupid argument up again, it's been done to death here and there's nothing to gain from trying to revive it.

The horse is dead, and anyone interested in seeing the whip-marks on it's dessicated body can look in the archives round about February of this year for the many (far too many) posts on 'simulation', 'is the brain a digital computer', the dreaded Chinese Room, etc.

Ben Zaiboc


      




From thespike at satx.rr.com  Fri Jul  2 16:36:52 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2010 11:36:52 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Sigh
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikT_vz7oTRgRqzwmT0xdozjFrAhDRSLMHPttb81@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1277553603.2126.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>	<4C28F4B0.2060208@satx.rr.com>	<AANLkTikC-t6dqL-2y30mZRZxglOtFcv7DariVpUBdh9p@mail.gmail.com>	<4C297175.4090308@satx.rr.com>	<57519E9F-6A51-4319-9F1F-BE3D1C315DFE@bellsouth.net>	<4C2984CF.6000905@satx.rr.com>	<BECB43BC-353A-49DD-9524-63150CE2E587@bellsouth.net>	<4C2997EF.3070206@satx.rr.com>	<61D8320D-D73D-4BCF-B272-3E4266B27514@bellsouth.net>	<4C2A22EE.8030601@satx.rr.com>	<009A85B4-D0DF-4979-9371-E0B55472A79A@bellsouth.net>	<4C2A37FB.9050300@satx.rr.com>	<35F4B5D4-1A8B-4FE7-BA05-C1C48D29BCD2@bellsouth.net>	<4C2AD77C.2090901@satx.rr.com>	<DB6B620A-A073-4C43-BAFD-0B87B6BF52B0@bellsouth.net>	<4C2AFBC5.9050400@satx.rr.com>	<AANLkTimoF2nOyh7NqS3K1rmnr5mBD5gcATJFmbXYzUW9@mail.gmail.com>	<641C0BF8-A3D7-4277-A053-11390F516475@bellsouth.net>	<4C2CE3FD.9080801@satx.rr.com>
	<4C2D7EDB.9020205@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTikT_vz7oTRgRqzwmT0xdozjFrAhDRSLMHPttb81@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4C2E15A4.4090906@satx.rr.com>

On 7/2/2010 1:58 AM, BillK wrote:

> And this would in theory allow for psi aided gamblers to make big
> profits and reduce the government tax take. However, practical
> considerations like how the casinos treat people who win over the odds
> would quickly put a stop to any excessive wins.

Hmmmmm, interesting--but I was talking about lotteries, where the number 
of tickets sold is known precisely in advance of drawing the winning 
numbers. Some people have won jackpots in the millions twice (as 
statistics suggests is inevitable), but I don't think they've been 
barred from entering the lottery again; to do so would look like an 
*admission* that some people are "lucky" or psychic or gained a corrupt 
influence, none of which would be acceptable PR.

Damien Broderick


From scerir at libero.it  Fri Jul  2 16:46:09 2010
From: scerir at libero.it (scerir)
Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 18:46:09 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] psi yet again
Message-ID: <10707737.960351278089169457.JavaMail.defaultUser@defaultHost>

Is there some literature about the remote possibility
of relevance of Benford's Law in casino's games?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benford's_law

Yes I know, there are no 'first digit' numbers in casino's
games, but such numbers are possible when you
perform statistics ... (Not sure it makes any sense though).


From jonkc at bellsouth.net  Fri Jul  2 16:36:39 2010
From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John Clark)
Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 12:36:39 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Sigh
In-Reply-To: <4C2CE3FD.9080801@satx.rr.com>
References: <mailman.1.1277553603.2126.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>	<AANLkTinoxW4asA-zOnA8TJS806mAl0lfc8ArbR7NTRmu@mail.gmail.com>	<4C26BED5.6070409@satx.rr.com>	<AANLkTinrp7FxNz3MOTgK4iGmEOvsAyzQb1MDMP0gJcK5@mail.gmail.com>	<4C28F4B0.2060208@satx.rr.com>	<AANLkTikC-t6dqL-2y30mZRZxglOtFcv7DariVpUBdh9p@mail.gmail.com>	<4C297175.4090308@satx.rr.com>	<57519E9F-6A51-4319-9F1F-BE3D1C315DFE@bellsouth.net>	<4C2984CF.6000905@satx.rr.com>	<BECB43BC-353A-49DD-9524-63150CE2E587@bellsouth.net>	<4C2997EF.3070206@satx.rr.com>	<61D8320D-D73D-4BCF-B272-3E4266B27514@bellsouth.net>	<4C2A22EE.8030601@satx.rr.com>	<009A85B4-D0DF-4979-9371-E0B55472A79A@bellsouth.net>	<4C2A37FB.9050300@satx.rr.com>	<35F4B5D4-1A8B-4FE7-BA05-C1C48D29BCD2@bellsouth.net>	<4C2AD77C.2090901@satx.rr.com>	<DB6B620A-A073-4C43-BAFD-0B87B6BF52B0@bellsouth.net>	<4C2AFBC5.9050400@satx.rr.com>	<AANLkTimoF2nOyh7NqS3K1rmnr5mBD5gcATJFmbXYzUW9@mail.gmail.com>
	<641C0BF8-A3D7-4277-A053-11390F516475@bellsouth.net>
	<4C2CE3FD.9080801@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <10C1866D-FD66-43B2-AD1B-F02F9BC82466@bellsouth.net>

On Jul 1, 2010, at 2:52 PM, Damien Broderick wrote:

> >I've already shown that in the Florida lotteries you mentioned earlier, the volatility is very much greater 

The volatility of what? I've already freely admitted that for whatever reason people prefer certain 3 digit numbers like 777 or 666 over other 3 digit numbers. So when one of those numbers does come up obviously there is going to be a big variation in the amount of money the state needs to pay out; but the question is, do these popular numbers end up also being winning numbers more often than you'd expect? Nope. Is there a "very much greater" variation in the percentage of winners in one year's 730 drawings over another year's 730 drawings? Nope. In either year are there more winners than random forces can account for? Nope.  

> >than any psi results found 

By "psi results" you mean an ASCII sequence posted by somebody I've never heard of onto a web-sight I've never heard of and peer reviewed by somebody I've never heard of. So if the results of events in the real world, where people will go to jail if there is any funny business, is incompatible with "psi results" where there are no consequences whatsoever for producing mountains of Bullshit then I'll have to side with the real world.

> using non-selected untrained subjects.

Forget the defense department, if there really is a way to train people to be good at psi I don't understand why venture capitalists aren't trampling over each other establishing new start up companies based on this wonderful new development, the potential profits are obvious and the initial startup costs minimal. 

  John K Clark

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100702/20cda61b/attachment.html>

From thespike at satx.rr.com  Fri Jul  2 17:11:29 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2010 12:11:29 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Sigh
In-Reply-To: <10C1866D-FD66-43B2-AD1B-F02F9BC82466@bellsouth.net>
References: <mailman.1.1277553603.2126.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>	<4C26BED5.6070409@satx.rr.com>	<AANLkTinrp7FxNz3MOTgK4iGmEOvsAyzQb1MDMP0gJcK5@mail.gmail.com>	<4C28F4B0.2060208@satx.rr.com>	<AANLkTikC-t6dqL-2y30mZRZxglOtFcv7DariVpUBdh9p@mail.gmail.com>	<4C297175.4090308@satx.rr.com>	<57519E9F-6A51-4319-9F1F-BE3D1C315DFE@bellsouth.net>	<4C2984CF.6000905@satx.rr.com>	<BECB43BC-353A-49DD-9524-63150CE2E587@bellsouth.net>	<4C2997EF.3070206@satx.rr.com>	<61D8320D-D73D-4BCF-B272-3E4266B27514@bellsouth.net>	<4C2A22EE.8030601@satx.rr.com>	<009A85B4-D0DF-4979-9371-E0B55472A79A@bellsouth.net>	<4C2A37FB.9050300@satx.rr.com>	<35F4B5D4-1A8B-4FE7-BA05-C1C48D29BCD2@bellsouth.net>	<4C2AD77C.2090901@satx.rr.com>	<DB6B620A-A073-4C43-BAFD-0B87B6BF52B0@bellsouth.net>	<4C2AFBC5.9050400@satx.rr.com>	<AANLkTimoF2nOyh7NqS3K1rmnr5mBD5gcATJFmbXYzUW9@mail.gmail.com>	<641C0BF8-A3D7-4277-A053-11390F516475@bellsouth.net>	<4C2CE3FD.9080801@satx.rr.com>
	<10C1866D-FD66-43B2-AD1B-F02F9BC82466@bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <4C2E1DC1.1080406@satx.rr.com>

On 7/2/2010 11:36 AM, John Clark wrote:

> So if the results of events in the real
> world, where people will go to jail if there is any funny business

STILL waiting for your explanation of how this is meant to impact the 
IRS receipts from lotteries.

Damien Broderick


From pharos at gmail.com  Fri Jul  2 17:19:42 2010
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 18:19:42 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Sigh
In-Reply-To: <4C2E15A4.4090906@satx.rr.com>
References: <mailman.1.1277553603.2126.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<4C28F4B0.2060208@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTikC-t6dqL-2y30mZRZxglOtFcv7DariVpUBdh9p@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C297175.4090308@satx.rr.com>
	<57519E9F-6A51-4319-9F1F-BE3D1C315DFE@bellsouth.net>
	<4C2984CF.6000905@satx.rr.com>
	<BECB43BC-353A-49DD-9524-63150CE2E587@bellsouth.net>
	<4C2997EF.3070206@satx.rr.com>
	<61D8320D-D73D-4BCF-B272-3E4266B27514@bellsouth.net>
	<4C2A22EE.8030601@satx.rr.com>
	<009A85B4-D0DF-4979-9371-E0B55472A79A@bellsouth.net>
	<4C2A37FB.9050300@satx.rr.com>
	<35F4B5D4-1A8B-4FE7-BA05-C1C48D29BCD2@bellsouth.net>
	<4C2AD77C.2090901@satx.rr.com>
	<DB6B620A-A073-4C43-BAFD-0B87B6BF52B0@bellsouth.net>
	<4C2AFBC5.9050400@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTimoF2nOyh7NqS3K1rmnr5mBD5gcATJFmbXYzUW9@mail.gmail.com>
	<641C0BF8-A3D7-4277-A053-11390F516475@bellsouth.net>
	<4C2CE3FD.9080801@satx.rr.com> <4C2D7EDB.9020205@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTikT_vz7oTRgRqzwmT0xdozjFrAhDRSLMHPttb81@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C2E15A4.4090906@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinzcXIiHJVgOtTQELQivbpeP_cGHl6E6QFdqBn3@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/2/10, Damien Broderick wrote:
>  Hmmmmm, interesting--but I was talking about lotteries, where the number of
> tickets sold is known precisely in advance of drawing the winning numbers.
> Some people have won jackpots in the millions twice (as statistics suggests
> is inevitable), but I don't think they've been barred from entering the
> lottery again; to do so would look like an *admission* that some people are
> "lucky" or psychic or gained a corrupt influence, none of which would be
> acceptable PR.
>
>

True, but you were arguing with John about casinos.   ;)


I found this bit of maths discussion which claims that we shouldn't be
very surprised if people win the lottery more than once.


Quote:
In order to consider the probabilities with respect to the entire
process, you need to start asking questions like:

?How many lottery games are held each year??
?How many tickets, on average, are sold over the course of each lottery??
?How many tickets does the average lottery player buy over a four year period??

?Instead of looking at Valerie?s chances alone, what are the chances
that anyone might have won two lottery tickets over a four year
period??

When you dig into the actual math describing the entire process
instead of one incorrectly singled-out and poorly-defined example, the
numbers become much more reasonable and believable. More than 125
million American adults spend $45 billion annually on some 35,000
lottery games across 40 states. With 35,000 winning events randomly
spread across 125 million gamblers, it turns out that the likelihood
of having a single person win more than once is actually rather high.
There is actually more than a 90% chance that someone will win twice
after only 10,000 lotteries. So over the course of four years as
140,00 lotteries are held, you would actually expect more than 10
people to win twice. And indeed if you google lottery+win+twice you
get many more hits than the press would otherwise believe. (As an
aside, don?t let the higher-than expected odds of winning deceive you.
While you can win, you are highly unlikely to make money doing it.)
---------------------


BillK



From thespike at satx.rr.com  Fri Jul  2 17:57:06 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2010 12:57:06 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Lotto
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinzcXIiHJVgOtTQELQivbpeP_cGHl6E6QFdqBn3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1277553603.2126.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>	<4C297175.4090308@satx.rr.com>	<57519E9F-6A51-4319-9F1F-BE3D1C315DFE@bellsouth.net>	<4C2984CF.6000905@satx.rr.com>	<BECB43BC-353A-49DD-9524-63150CE2E587@bellsouth.net>	<4C2997EF.3070206@satx.rr.com>	<61D8320D-D73D-4BCF-B272-3E4266B27514@bellsouth.net>	<4C2A22EE.8030601@satx.rr.com>	<009A85B4-D0DF-4979-9371-E0B55472A79A@bellsouth.net>	<4C2A37FB.9050300@satx.rr.com>	<35F4B5D4-1A8B-4FE7-BA05-C1C48D29BCD2@bellsouth.net>	<4C2AD77C.2090901@satx.rr.com>	<DB6B620A-A073-4C43-BAFD-0B87B6BF52B0@bellsouth.net>	<4C2AFBC5.9050400@satx.rr.com>	<AANLkTimoF2nOyh7NqS3K1rmnr5mBD5gcATJFmbXYzUW9@mail.gmail.com>	<641C0BF8-A3D7-4277-A053-11390F516475@bellsouth.net>	<4C2CE3FD.9080801@satx.rr.com>
	<4C2D7EDB.9020205@satx.rr.com>	<AANLkTikT_vz7oTRgRqzwmT0xdozjFrAhDRSLMHPttb81@mail.gmail.com>	<4C2E15A4.4090906@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTinzcXIiHJVgOtTQELQivbpeP_cGHl6E6QFdqBn3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4C2E2872.9050403@satx.rr.com>

On 7/2/2010 12:19 PM, BillK wrote:

> you were arguing with John about casinos.   ;)

Only by accident. I started talking about Lotto (since I was challenged 
about my book on that topic), then got sidetracked into a more general 
assertion about lotteries, then JKC whipped in casinos. It's obvious 
that the casino is an appalling arena to look for small effect size 
interventions of any kind, including (as you noted) the owners' quick 
way with anyone obviously taking too much dough from them. I'm 
interested in evidence for or against interventions in real life from 
psi, and lotteries (especially lotto) where you get to nominate the 
number/s of your choice are far more relevant than the bear pit of casinos.

In case anyone is interested, here is a sample of the preferences 
factors at work in Tattslotto in the draws I examined. Each cell is the 
raw vote for each number rescaled to a mean expected value of 100%:

  SATURDAY DRAW  997

WINNING NUMBERS  20 22 27 32 37 40
   SUPPLEMENTARY NUMBERS  23 38

TOTAL IS   58,273,422     MEAN IS  1,294,964.933

   1             1162572            89.78
   2             1263090            97.54
   3             1353445           104.52
   4             1318749           101.84
   5             1374645           106.15
   6             1271508            98.19
   7             1574496           121.59
   8             1340856           103.54
   9             1300274           100.41
  10             1485755           114.73
  11             1544334           119.26
  12             1446903           111.73
  13             1564392           120.81
  14             1267285            97.86
  15             1294608            99.97
  16             1215894            93.89
  17             1303089           100.63
  18             1434662           110.79
  19             1569658           121.21
  20             1601798           123.69
  21             1464726           113.11
  22             1346668           103.99
  23             1346843           104.01
  24             1174756            90.72
  25             1264991            97.69
  26             1332128           102.87
  27             1531800           118.29
  28             1487852           114.90
  29             1382858           106.79
  30             1430302           110.45
  31             1227272            94.77
  32             1054380            81.42
  33             1122991            86.72
  34             1194937            92.28
  35             1299758           100.37
  36             1306096           100.86
  37             1248649            96.42
  38             1123961            86.79
  39             1079271            83.34
  40             1201223            92.76
  41              896145            69.20
  42              963186            74.38
  43             1036134            80.01
  44             1007458            77.80
  45             1061024            81.93

You can use this to maximize your payout in those rare instances where 
the least favored numbers are drawn together. But the tax taken off the 
top still makes this unrewarding.

Damien Broderick



From jonkc at bellsouth.net  Fri Jul  2 17:37:23 2010
From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John Clark)
Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 13:37:23 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Sigh
In-Reply-To: <4C2E1DC1.1080406@satx.rr.com>
References: <mailman.1.1277553603.2126.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>	<4C26BED5.6070409@satx.rr.com>	<AANLkTinrp7FxNz3MOTgK4iGmEOvsAyzQb1MDMP0gJcK5@mail.gmail.com>	<4C28F4B0.2060208@satx.rr.com>	<AANLkTikC-t6dqL-2y30mZRZxglOtFcv7DariVpUBdh9p@mail.gmail.com>	<4C297175.4090308@satx.rr.com>	<57519E9F-6A51-4319-9F1F-BE3D1C315DFE@bellsouth.net>	<4C2984CF.6000905@satx.rr.com>	<BECB43BC-353A-49DD-9524-63150CE2E587@bellsouth.net>	<4C2997EF.3070206@satx.rr.com>	<61D8320D-D73D-4BCF-B272-3E4266B27514@bellsouth.net>	<4C2A22EE.8030601@satx.rr.com>	<009A85B4-D0DF-4979-9371-E0B55472A79A@bellsouth.net>	<4C2A37FB.9050300@satx.rr.com>	<35F4B5D4-1A8B-4FE7-BA05-C1C48D29BCD2@bellsouth.net>	<4C2AD77C.2090901@satx.rr.com>	<DB6B620A-A073-4C43-BAFD-0B87B6BF52B0@bellsouth.net>	<4C2AFBC5.9050400@satx.rr.com>	<AANLkTimoF2nOyh7NqS3K1rmnr5mBD5gcATJFmbXYzUW9@mail.gmail.com>	<641C0BF8-A3D7-4277-A053-11390F516475@bellsouth.net>	<4C2CE3FD.9080801@satx.rr.com>
	<10C1866D-FD66-43B2-AD1B-F02F9BC82466@bellsouth.net>
	<4C2E1DC1.1080406@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <BA844959-8218-4704-A7C4-4293859A3178@bellsouth.net>

On Jul 2, 2010, at 1:11 PM, Damien Broderick wrote:

> STILL waiting for your explanation of how this is meant to impact the IRS receipts from lotteries.

I have no explanation because lotteries are run by states and get to keep all the profits, they pay nothing to the IRS.

And Damien, I don't have 800,000,000 lottery data points on my computer as you do but if you can find a significant variation from probability using accepted statistical practices in all that data then it would convince even the most diehard psi skeptics, including me, that there must be something to it. Nobody could dispute the data and if your mathematical analysis is also OK then it's game over and you have won.

But you've had that data on your computer for years; why is psi still not accepted by mainstream science? And please don't give me that tired old line "because there is no theory to explain it".

 John K Clark

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100702/1ec5cbf6/attachment.html>

From thespike at satx.rr.com  Fri Jul  2 18:27:09 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2010 13:27:09 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Sigh
In-Reply-To: <BA844959-8218-4704-A7C4-4293859A3178@bellsouth.net>
References: <mailman.1.1277553603.2126.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>	<4C28F4B0.2060208@satx.rr.com>	<AANLkTikC-t6dqL-2y30mZRZxglOtFcv7DariVpUBdh9p@mail.gmail.com>	<4C297175.4090308@satx.rr.com>	<57519E9F-6A51-4319-9F1F-BE3D1C315DFE@bellsouth.net>	<4C2984CF.6000905@satx.rr.com>	<BECB43BC-353A-49DD-9524-63150CE2E587@bellsouth.net>	<4C2997EF.3070206@satx.rr.com>	<61D8320D-D73D-4BCF-B272-3E4266B27514@bellsouth.net>	<4C2A22EE.8030601@satx.rr.com>	<009A85B4-D0DF-4979-9371-E0B55472A79A@bellsouth.net>	<4C2A37FB.9050300@satx.rr.com>	<35F4B5D4-1A8B-4FE7-BA05-C1C48D29BCD2@bellsouth.net>	<4C2AD77C.2090901@satx.rr.com>	<DB6B620A-A073-4C43-BAFD-0B87B6BF52B0@bellsouth.net>	<4C2AFBC5.9050400@satx.rr.com>	<AANLkTimoF2nOyh7NqS3K1rmnr5mBD5gcATJFmbXYzUW9@mail.gmail.com>	<641C0BF8-A3D7-4277-A053-11390F516475@bellsouth.net>	<4C2CE3FD.9080801@satx.rr.com>	<10C1866D-FD66-43B2-AD1B-F02F9BC82466@bellsouth.net>	<4C2E1DC1.1080406@satx.rr.com>
	<BA844959-8218-4704-A7C4-4293859A3178@bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <4C2E2F7D.8020603@satx.rr.com>

On 7/2/2010 12:37 PM, John Clark wrote:

> I have no explanation because lotteries are run by states and get to
> keep all the profits, they pay nothing to the IRS.

In Australia they are run by private companies under the watchful eyes 
of State governments. However, your comment evades the point that by 
your earlier account the states should be screaming with rage if 1 in 
1000 guesses is modified by psi. But you still haven't told us what 
difference you think this would make to the number of prize winners, and 
whether this would necessarily exceed the noise floor. Maybe it 
would--but I want to see your numbers, not your hand-waving guesses, 
however intuitively true they seem to you. People used to be quite sure 
the earth couldn't be spherical because you'd fall off.

> And Damien, I don't have 800,000,000 lottery data points on my computer
> as you do but if you can find a significant variation from probability
> using accepted statistical practices in all that data then it would
> convince even the most diehard psi skeptics, including me, that there
> must be something to it. Nobody could dispute the data and if your
> mathematical analysis is also OK then it's game over and you have won.

I analyzed that data in terms of differences in guesses (normalized to 
take account of population preferences) at each number in the range 
1-45, depending on whether the number won or not. I had the full data 
from 23 draws made available to me. There is just the right-sized mean 
deviation to accord with other parapsychological findings.

You would not be convinced, however, for the same reason I'm not; 
although 138 data points drawn from nearly a billion guesses is pretty 
impressive, it's not really enough to be certain that bias factors have 
washed out. I'd like to see 100 or 1000 draws analyzed this way, but I 
have no access to further data, and neither does anyone else I've 
consulted over the years. So I regard this as a promising result, a 
useful pilot study, and hope some day to read the results of a far 
larger study.

But in the meantime, the results I got tend to support my claim, not 
that of die-hard skeptics.

Damien Broderick



From anders at aleph.se  Fri Jul  2 17:23:47 2010
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2010 18:23:47 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Americans polled about their views of the future
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimmQQcjlR2ePFI8HbAnuIcXbRsndoQ4pIKRED03@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTimmQQcjlR2ePFI8HbAnuIcXbRsndoQ4pIKRED03@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4C2E20A3.8090804@aleph.se>

John Grigg wrote:
> "And the results are...."
>
>   
Hi! Interesting survey. The basic thing seems to be that people have a 
rather random picture, not anything cohesive. People are often 
pessimistic about the future in general and optimistic about their own.

How are you otherwise? I am packing up things for spending July back 
home in Sweden (grandmother will be 100!), with a stop on the way in 
Marseilles for a conference. I am trying to finish papers and 
administration and do research at the same time. So much to do!

-- 
Dr Anders Sandberg,
Future of Humanity Institute
Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University



From spike66 at att.net  Fri Jul  2 19:16:26 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (Gregory Jones)
Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 12:16:26 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Americans polled about their views of the future
In-Reply-To: <4C2E20A3.8090804@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <513827.4443.qm@web81508.mail.mud.yahoo.com>


--- On Fri, 7/2/10, Anders Sandberg <anders at aleph.se> wrote:
?
...I am packing up things for spending July back home in Sweden (grandmother will be 100!)...

Anders!? So good to hear from you.? Also,?best wishes?on the possibility you are carrying the super-longevity gene:
?
http://www.latimes.com/news/science/la-sci-longevity-genes-20100702,0,1192424.story
?
Let's hope it is true.? {8-]
?
spike
?

?
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100702/7a274fb6/attachment.html>

From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Fri Jul  2 20:03:50 2010
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 13:03:50 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Sigh
In-Reply-To: <4C2E2F7D.8020603@satx.rr.com>
References: <mailman.1.1277553603.2126.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<4C28F4B0.2060208@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTikC-t6dqL-2y30mZRZxglOtFcv7DariVpUBdh9p@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C297175.4090308@satx.rr.com>
	<57519E9F-6A51-4319-9F1F-BE3D1C315DFE@bellsouth.net>
	<4C2984CF.6000905@satx.rr.com>
	<BECB43BC-353A-49DD-9524-63150CE2E587@bellsouth.net>
	<4C2997EF.3070206@satx.rr.com>
	<61D8320D-D73D-4BCF-B272-3E4266B27514@bellsouth.net>
	<4C2A22EE.8030601@satx.rr.com>
	<009A85B4-D0DF-4979-9371-E0B55472A79A@bellsouth.net>
	<4C2A37FB.9050300@satx.rr.com>
	<35F4B5D4-1A8B-4FE7-BA05-C1C48D29BCD2@bellsouth.net>
	<4C2AD77C.2090901@satx.rr.com>
	<DB6B620A-A073-4C43-BAFD-0B87B6BF52B0@bellsouth.net>
	<4C2AFBC5.9050400@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTimoF2nOyh7NqS3K1rmnr5mBD5gcATJFmbXYzUW9@mail.gmail.com>
	<641C0BF8-A3D7-4277-A053-11390F516475@bellsouth.net>
	<4C2CE3FD.9080801@satx.rr.com>
	<10C1866D-FD66-43B2-AD1B-F02F9BC82466@bellsouth.net>
	<4C2E1DC1.1080406@satx.rr.com>
	<BA844959-8218-4704-A7C4-4293859A3178@bellsouth.net>
	<4C2E2F7D.8020603@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTiki1WrF1BczOP00PV6dhJ9VDuDHcD5otI7RQd9a@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 11:27 AM, Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com> wrote:

> But in the meantime, the results I got tend to support my claim, not that of
> die-hard skeptics.


### Enough to move the existence-meter from ??% to ??% ? Tell us how
much more convinced are you about the reality of psi based on this
specific result. If the difference is on the order of 0.01%, I'll buy
it, but then it doesn't matter much - you either believe or not
believe to begin with and the change in expected probabilities is
insignificant. If the difference is 50% or so, you would have a lot of
explaining to do.

Rafal

BTW, I am sure there are employees at lotteries who can and did look
at much more data than you can access .... men with great statistical
expertise .... in hundreds of independent organizations ... and no
published reports on psi from them .... what could this imply?


From thespike at satx.rr.com  Fri Jul  2 20:26:51 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2010 15:26:51 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Sigh
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTiki1WrF1BczOP00PV6dhJ9VDuDHcD5otI7RQd9a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1277553603.2126.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>	<4C297175.4090308@satx.rr.com>	<57519E9F-6A51-4319-9F1F-BE3D1C315DFE@bellsouth.net>	<4C2984CF.6000905@satx.rr.com>	<BECB43BC-353A-49DD-9524-63150CE2E587@bellsouth.net>	<4C2997EF.3070206@satx.rr.com>	<61D8320D-D73D-4BCF-B272-3E4266B27514@bellsouth.net>	<4C2A22EE.8030601@satx.rr.com>	<009A85B4-D0DF-4979-9371-E0B55472A79A@bellsouth.net>	<4C2A37FB.9050300@satx.rr.com>	<35F4B5D4-1A8B-4FE7-BA05-C1C48D29BCD2@bellsouth.net>	<4C2AD77C.2090901@satx.rr.com>	<DB6B620A-A073-4C43-BAFD-0B87B6BF52B0@bellsouth.net>	<4C2AFBC5.9050400@satx.rr.com>	<AANLkTimoF2nOyh7NqS3K1rmnr5mBD5gcATJFmbXYzUW9@mail.gmail.com>	<641C0BF8-A3D7-4277-A053-11390F516475@bellsouth.net>	<4C2CE3FD.9080801@satx.rr.com>	<10C1866D-FD66-43B2-AD1B-F02F9BC82466@bellsouth.net>	<4C2E1DC1.1080406@satx.rr.com>	<BA844959-8218-4704-A7C4-4293859A3178@bellsouth.net>	<4C2E2F7D.8020603@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTiki1WrF1BczOP00PV6dhJ9VDuDHcD5otI7RQd9a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4C2E4B8B.7050201@satx.rr.com>

On 7/2/2010 3:03 PM, Rafal Smigrodzki wrote:

> ### Enough to move the existence-meter from ??% to ??% ?

I was already convince psi is real (but usually, like Goering's balls, 
rather small) so I didn't change anything in particular--I was looking 
for a way to *use* psi, but it turns out the stochastic jitter is too 
great for any simple application based on gaming populations. Linear 
regression helped a bit, but not enough to clear away the noise of 
shifting biases. (Example: it is demonstrable that the vote for any 
given number changes in immediately subsequent draws--because many 
punters are superstitious. Of course one can then ask "Does it change in 
the predicted direction *more* when a given number is a winner twice in 
row than when it's not?" and the overall mean answer is yes.)

> BTW, I am sure there are employees at lotteries who can and did look
> at much more data than you can access .... men with great statistical
> expertise .... in hundreds of independent organizations ...

This seems very likely, but I was astonished at how little the guys at 
Tattslotto cared about the kinds of small effects I anticipated. They 
just couldn't be bothered following it up (or so they said). Like JKC, 
they were "realists" who knew what's what, so that psi BULLSHIT just 
wasn't worth considering.

> and no
> published reports on psi from them .... what could this imply?

As far as I know, here haven't been any or many reports from the Sony 
ESPER psi lab either; they announced as it was shut down in 1998 
(following Masaru Ibuka's death) that yes, they had found such effects, 
but they weren't large enough to impact their company's program. One 
might expect them to admit it if the thing was a washout, but maybe that 
would imply public disrespect for their sainted co-founder. Realpolitik 
is a real fucker when you're going after the mysterious...

Then again, perhaps it's all gone deepest black (as I expect) and is 
attended by disinformation projects, as is known to have happened with 
many sightings of highly classified aircraft and spy balloons. 
Realpolitik is a real fucker...

Damien Broderick


From msd001 at gmail.com  Sat Jul  3 00:49:53 2010
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 20:49:53 -0400
Subject: [ExI] mind body dualism
In-Reply-To: <924795.57102.qm@web114413.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.1001.1278026776.10820.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<924795.57102.qm@web114413.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikV_Cd7QSUXJsCHilv4-_SEJ8aifhDkyD3vjPf_@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 4:07 AM, Ben Zaiboc <bbenzai at yahoo.com> wrote:
> The horse is dead, and anyone interested in seeing the whip-marks on it's dessicated body can look in the archives round about February of this year for the many (far too many) posts on 'simulation', 'is the brain a digital computer', the dreaded Chinese Room, etc.

But what about a horse of another color?  Or a simulated horse using a
high-def color palette? Or a real horse with a low-def color palette
using a gift-horse sense of chiaroscuro?



From sjatkins at mac.com  Sat Jul  3 01:03:05 2010
From: sjatkins at mac.com (samantha)
Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2010 18:03:05 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Libertarian-spotting field guide
In-Reply-To: <912945.79061.qm@web27006.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
References: <912945.79061.qm@web27006.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4C2E8C49.2070702@mac.com>

Tom Nowell wrote:
> http://www.leftycartoons.com/the-24-types-of-libertarian/
>
> Hey, I found it funny. Confess it - how many of us at one point or another had a flirtation with the "too much Heinlein" school of libertarian thought?
>
>   
Difficult to make a cartoon out of the deeply reasoned position of many 
real libertarians.

- samantha



From msd001 at gmail.com  Sat Jul  3 01:13:31 2010
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 21:13:31 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Sigh
In-Reply-To: <10C1866D-FD66-43B2-AD1B-F02F9BC82466@bellsouth.net>
References: <mailman.1.1277553603.2126.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<AANLkTinoxW4asA-zOnA8TJS806mAl0lfc8ArbR7NTRmu@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C26BED5.6070409@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTinrp7FxNz3MOTgK4iGmEOvsAyzQb1MDMP0gJcK5@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C28F4B0.2060208@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTikC-t6dqL-2y30mZRZxglOtFcv7DariVpUBdh9p@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C297175.4090308@satx.rr.com>
	<57519E9F-6A51-4319-9F1F-BE3D1C315DFE@bellsouth.net>
	<4C2984CF.6000905@satx.rr.com>
	<BECB43BC-353A-49DD-9524-63150CE2E587@bellsouth.net>
	<4C2997EF.3070206@satx.rr.com>
	<61D8320D-D73D-4BCF-B272-3E4266B27514@bellsouth.net>
	<4C2A22EE.8030601@satx.rr.com>
	<009A85B4-D0DF-4979-9371-E0B55472A79A@bellsouth.net>
	<4C2A37FB.9050300@satx.rr.com>
	<35F4B5D4-1A8B-4FE7-BA05-C1C48D29BCD2@bellsouth.net>
	<4C2AD77C.2090901@satx.rr.com>
	<DB6B620A-A073-4C43-BAFD-0B87B6BF52B0@bellsouth.net>
	<4C2AFBC5.9050400@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTimoF2nOyh7NqS3K1rmnr5mBD5gcATJFmbXYzUW9@mail.gmail.com>
	<641C0BF8-A3D7-4277-A053-11390F516475@bellsouth.net>
	<4C2CE3FD.9080801@satx.rr.com>
	<10C1866D-FD66-43B2-AD1B-F02F9BC82466@bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTilfAlOofUQvkE_2N1KhA0ypE3p0LVGSVCHQZl6-@mail.gmail.com>

2010/7/2 John Clark <jonkc at bellsouth.net>:
> By "psi results" you mean an ASCII sequence posted by somebody I've never
> heard of onto a web-sight I've never heard of and peer reviewed by somebody
> I've never heard of.?So if the results of events in the real world, where
> people will go to jail if there is any funny business, is incompatible with
> "psi results" where there are no consequences whatsoever for producing
> mountains of Bullshit then I'll have to side with the real world.

I suspect the set of "somebodies heard of by John Clark" is
statistically insignificant.  The set of "authorities trusted by John
Clark" contains either a single member or is actually the empty set.

And since I've already jokingly introduced set theory...  Is it
possible the boundary between the two sets "disbelievers" and
"open-minded skeptics"  (leaving the devout believers in another set
referred to only by this recursive statement) is caused by existing
membership of each set?  ex:  In the gestalt image that is alternately
a vase or two faces in profile, if the observer has never seen a vase
and is unable to perceive the negative space between profile spaces as
anything other than the part of the picture where the faces are not -
there is no gestalt and thus no vase.  Either side of this topic
probably has blinders that allow them to see what they already
believe.  I don't believe statistics and the many ways they can be
used to deceive even the statisticians any more than I believe the
convictions of the devoutly religious.



From giulio at gmail.com  Sat Jul  3 05:30:00 2010
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2010 07:30:00 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Libertarian-spotting field guide
In-Reply-To: <4C2E8C49.2070702@mac.com>
References: <912945.79061.qm@web27006.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
	<4C2E8C49.2070702@mac.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimHCrYtfp6sq2pNeE54dH7qeh6fMlIMeBT2_O7e@mail.gmail.com>

This one is fun:
Caption: LEFT-WING
Woman in distance, yelling to be heard: I?m HERE! i EXIST! i?m against
the goverment AND corporations! why does everyone always ignore me?

Which is precisely my own position: I am against big government and,
for the same reason, I am against big corporations with
government-like powers, which become de-facto monopolies by bribing
big government and lock the marketplace for smaller corporations.

What I fing sad is the "why does everyone always ignore me?" line,
which is correct. Most people don't want to hear reasoned and balanced
positions, they want to hear black-and-white one liners. Greedy big
government and big corporations officers know this, and use it.

On Sat, Jul 3, 2010 at 3:03 AM, samantha <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:
> Tom Nowell wrote:
>>
>> http://www.leftycartoons.com/the-24-types-of-libertarian/
>>
>> Hey, I found it funny. Confess it - how many of us at one point or another
>> had a flirtation with the "too much Heinlein" school of libertarian thought?
>>
>>
>
> Difficult to make a cartoon out of the deeply reasoned position of many real
> libertarians.
>
> - samantha
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>



From eric at m056832107.syzygy.com  Sat Jul  3 06:11:22 2010
From: eric at m056832107.syzygy.com (Eric Messick)
Date: 3 Jul 2010 06:11:22 -0000
Subject: [ExI] Libertarian-spotting field guide
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimHCrYtfp6sq2pNeE54dH7qeh6fMlIMeBT2_O7e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <912945.79061.qm@web27006.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
	<4C2E8C49.2070702@mac.com>
	<AANLkTimHCrYtfp6sq2pNeE54dH7qeh6fMlIMeBT2_O7e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20100703061122.5.qmail@syzygy.com>

Giulio Prisco writes:
>This one is fun:
>Caption: LEFT-WING
>Woman in distance, yelling to be heard: I=92m HERE! i EXIST! i=92m against
>the goverment AND corporations! why does everyone always ignore me?
>
>Which is precisely my own position: I am against big government and,
>for the same reason, I am against big corporations with
>government-like powers, which become de-facto monopolies by bribing
>big government and lock the marketplace for smaller corporations.
>
>What I fing sad is the "why does everyone always ignore me?" line,
>which is correct. Most people don't want to hear reasoned and balanced
>positions, they want to hear black-and-white one liners. Greedy big
>government and big corporations officers know this, and use it.

This is basically my position as well.

I consider concentration of power in either corporations or government
to be a problem.

I think people tend to ignore this position because anyone with
entrenched power will find the position threatening, and work to
minimize it.  Also, if power is decentralized, then it resides in
individuals, and takes skill to exercise.  People fear that they do
not have that skill, and find it easy to turn over their power to
someone else.

Thus I expect that augmented individuals will be more skillful and
more confident in their power, and more people will support this
position.  What political problems will reveal themselves when
everyone is smarter will be interesting to see.

-eric


From giulio at gmail.com  Sat Jul  3 06:43:15 2010
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2010 08:43:15 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Libertarian-spotting field guide
In-Reply-To: <20100703061122.5.qmail@syzygy.com>
References: <912945.79061.qm@web27006.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
	<4C2E8C49.2070702@mac.com>
	<AANLkTimHCrYtfp6sq2pNeE54dH7qeh6fMlIMeBT2_O7e@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100703061122.5.qmail@syzygy.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinfaayzzuYH1IOBvGNSsc0a4M5sBIlRv_P3qDHx@mail.gmail.com>

@Eric "I think people tend to ignore this position because anyone with
entrenched power will find the position threatening, and work to
minimize it."

Exactly.

On Sat, Jul 3, 2010 at 8:11 AM, Eric Messick <eric at m056832107.syzygy.com> wrote:
> Giulio Prisco writes:
>>This one is fun:
>>Caption: LEFT-WING
>>Woman in distance, yelling to be heard: I=92m HERE! i EXIST! i=92m against
>>the goverment AND corporations! why does everyone always ignore me?
>>
>>Which is precisely my own position: I am against big government and,
>>for the same reason, I am against big corporations with
>>government-like powers, which become de-facto monopolies by bribing
>>big government and lock the marketplace for smaller corporations.
>>
>>What I fing sad is the "why does everyone always ignore me?" line,
>>which is correct. Most people don't want to hear reasoned and balanced
>>positions, they want to hear black-and-white one liners. Greedy big
>>government and big corporations officers know this, and use it.
>
> This is basically my position as well.
>
> I consider concentration of power in either corporations or government
> to be a problem.
>
> I think people tend to ignore this position because anyone with
> entrenched power will find the position threatening, and work to
> minimize it. ?Also, if power is decentralized, then it resides in
> individuals, and takes skill to exercise. ?People fear that they do
> not have that skill, and find it easy to turn over their power to
> someone else.
>
> Thus I expect that augmented individuals will be more skillful and
> more confident in their power, and more people will support this
> position. ?What political problems will reveal themselves when
> everyone is smarter will be interesting to see.
>
> -eric
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>



From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Sat Jul  3 10:48:53 2010
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2010 03:48:53 -0700
Subject: [ExI] psi yet again
In-Reply-To: <10707737.960351278089169457.JavaMail.defaultUser@defaultHost>
References: <10707737.960351278089169457.JavaMail.defaultUser@defaultHost>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinKe8rf9SU7Ud7utf0-AFd8Tnp8WAKT4qE3fAIs@mail.gmail.com>

A bit off topic but..., what are some of everyone's favorite
depictions of psi within science fiction literature?  I would say
Julian May's Pliocene and Galactic Millieu series are at the top of my
list.  But the psi abilities in it are at the comic book superhero
level of power.

John


From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Sat Jul  3 11:12:13 2010
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2010 04:12:13 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Americans polled about their views of the future
In-Reply-To: <4C2E20A3.8090804@aleph.se>
References: <AANLkTimmQQcjlR2ePFI8HbAnuIcXbRsndoQ4pIKRED03@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C2E20A3.8090804@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <AANLkTilPrHICuFV5wBT0RAgNlqm9Zqrm-tdPkYZoYc0H@mail.gmail.com>

Hello Anders!,

It's been a long time (well..., at least since Convergence).  I am
currently packing up my things to move a few miles across town to a
nicer apt. complex with my roommates.  I'm currently unemployed (never
did finish college) but expect to find work soon (doing whatever...).
I would say in general my life has stalled. lol  I nearly joined the
military a few years ago, but did not (I'm now too old).  I defaulted
on my student loans (years ago) and so I cannot get Pell grants,
loans, etc. to go back to school, and of course bankruptcy will not
erase such a debt.  If you ever come across a time machine, please let
me know so I can go back to day one of my college experience...

If cryonics works I may have a second chance.  But that if an awfully
huge "if."  And I can just imagine being brought back in the year 2150
and being told that my student debt load is still owed and now even
vastly larger!! lol

I have mixed feelings about Arizona, but it's my home now (I was
raised in Alaska).  My dad lives in a rent control apt. in New York
City ($325 a month, 2 bedrooms) and in theory I could take it over.
But it's still an expensive city and I have had some former New
Yorkers say it may not be a great experience for me to relocate there.

Wow!  I'm impressed by your grandmother's longevity!  I hope you
inherited those genes and outlive us all.  : )  I'm glad your academic
career worked out so well and you have so much to do and see.  But try
to find a little time for yourself.  Oh, and don't grow up *too much!*
hee

Best wishes,

John


On 7/2/10, Anders Sandberg <anders at aleph.se> wrote:
> John Grigg wrote:
>> "And the results are...."
>>
>>
> Hi! Interesting survey. The basic thing seems to be that people have a
> rather random picture, not anything cohesive. People are often
> pessimistic about the future in general and optimistic about their own.
>
> How are you otherwise? I am packing up things for spending July back
> home in Sweden (grandmother will be 100!), with a stop on the way in
> Marseilles for a conference. I am trying to finish papers and
> administration and do research at the same time. So much to do!
>
> --
> Dr Anders Sandberg,
> Future of Humanity Institute
> Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>


From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Sat Jul  3 11:18:07 2010
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2010 04:18:07 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Americans polled about their views of the future
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTilPrHICuFV5wBT0RAgNlqm9Zqrm-tdPkYZoYc0H@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTimmQQcjlR2ePFI8HbAnuIcXbRsndoQ4pIKRED03@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C2E20A3.8090804@aleph.se>
	<AANLkTilPrHICuFV5wBT0RAgNlqm9Zqrm-tdPkYZoYc0H@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTilHRMant8qfA4LQCdyM4VfgYCh1-UtMt9XVAnpL@mail.gmail.com>

Damn!  Anders, I thought because you included a personal message that
this was to your personal email! lol  It is late and I am tired.

John

On 7/3/10, John Grigg <possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello Anders!,
>
> It's been a long time (well..., at least since Convergence).  I am
> currently packing up my things to move a few miles across town to a
> nicer apt. complex with my roommates.  I'm currently unemployed (never
> did finish college) but expect to find work soon (doing whatever...).
> I would say in general my life has stalled. lol  I nearly joined the
> military a few years ago, but did not (I'm now too old).  I defaulted
> on my student loans (years ago) and so I cannot get Pell grants,
> loans, etc. to go back to school, and of course bankruptcy will not
> erase such a debt.  If you ever come across a time machine, please let
> me know so I can go back to day one of my college experience...
>
> If cryonics works I may have a second chance.  But that if an awfully
> huge "if."  And I can just imagine being brought back in the year 2150
> and being told that my student debt load is still owed and now even
> vastly larger!! lol
>
> I have mixed feelings about Arizona, but it's my home now (I was
> raised in Alaska).  My dad lives in a rent control apt. in New York
> City ($325 a month, 2 bedrooms) and in theory I could take it over.
> But it's still an expensive city and I have had some former New
> Yorkers say it may not be a great experience for me to relocate there.
>
> Wow!  I'm impressed by your grandmother's longevity!  I hope you
> inherited those genes and outlive us all.  : )  I'm glad your academic
> career worked out so well and you have so much to do and see.  But try
> to find a little time for yourself.  Oh, and don't grow up *too much!*
> hee
>
> Best wishes,
>
> John
>
>
> On 7/2/10, Anders Sandberg <anders at aleph.se> wrote:
>> John Grigg wrote:
>>> "And the results are...."
>>>
>>>
>> Hi! Interesting survey. The basic thing seems to be that people have a
>> rather random picture, not anything cohesive. People are often
>> pessimistic about the future in general and optimistic about their own.
>>
>> How are you otherwise? I am packing up things for spending July back
>> home in Sweden (grandmother will be 100!), with a stop on the way in
>> Marseilles for a conference. I am trying to finish papers and
>> administration and do research at the same time. So much to do!
>>
>> --
>> Dr Anders Sandberg,
>> Future of Humanity Institute
>> Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
>


From msd001 at gmail.com  Sat Jul  3 14:49:23 2010
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2010 10:49:23 -0400
Subject: [ExI] psi yet again
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinKe8rf9SU7Ud7utf0-AFd8Tnp8WAKT4qE3fAIs@mail.gmail.com>
References: <10707737.960351278089169457.JavaMail.defaultUser@defaultHost>
	<AANLkTinKe8rf9SU7Ud7utf0-AFd8Tnp8WAKT4qE3fAIs@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTilYnvnFo9lncJp8VlQKp8HkCMAGKrBuZdKzABHS@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Jul 3, 2010 at 6:48 AM, John Grigg <possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com> wrote:
> A bit off topic but..., what are some of everyone's favorite
> depictions of psi within science fiction literature? ?I would say
> Julian May's Pliocene and Galactic Millieu series are at the top of my
> list. ?But the psi abilities in it are at the comic book superhero
> level of power.

absolutely agreed.  As are Xmen (duh)

The psi abilities in Firestarter were pretty awesome too.  Not sure if
the Bene Gesserit of Dune would be psi, but the Voice as depicted in
the original movie was similar to the Firestarter dad's "push"
influence.  Perhaps the Mentat would be the opposite force as pure
intellectual ability?

Deanna Trois' empathic and telepathic abilities were ever-present yet
nearly useless in every episode.  "Captain, those aliens (who are
shooting at us) have a strong emotion of anger towards us."

David Tennant Dr.Who portrayed the Ood with psychic ability that was
explained as a cultural group-mind kind of communication (like an
innate organic internet)  That's a well-executed use of telepathy.

Phenomenon gave John Travolta telekinesis along with superhuman
brainpowers.  'Never explained if it was aliens that gave him this
ability or the brain tumor that eventually killed him.  (or if the
alien superpowers caused the tumor, etc.)

fun brainstorming exercise, thanks



From lubkin at unreasonable.com  Sat Jul  3 15:10:26 2010
From: lubkin at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin)
Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2010 11:10:26 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Libertarian-spotting field guide
In-Reply-To: <20100703061122.5.qmail@syzygy.com>
References: <912945.79061.qm@web27006.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
	<4C2E8C49.2070702@mac.com>
	<AANLkTimHCrYtfp6sq2pNeE54dH7qeh6fMlIMeBT2_O7e@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100703061122.5.qmail@syzygy.com>
Message-ID: <201007031509.o63F94xr013396@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

Eric Messick wrote:

>I think people tend to ignore this position because anyone with
>entrenched power will find the position threatening, and work to
>minimize it.

It seems to me that this is parallel to assassination. Assassination is
widely denigrated as ineffective, cowardly, and beyond the pale.

A casual dispassionate look suggests it's far more cost-effective than
open warfare, and far more humane (as measured in death or suffering
per military objective achieved).

I reconcile the two by postulating that since TPTB would be the ones
assassinated, they have an incentive to vilify the practice.

Pulling back further, it seems (duh) that it's common throughout history
for those in power to encourage the promulgation of beliefs that keep
them safe and in power ("Good King Foobar was anointed by God.
To defy him is to risk eternal damnation.").

Does anyone know of a good examination of this?


-- David.



From Frankmac at ripco.com  Sat Jul  3 15:41:45 2010
From: Frankmac at ripco.com (Frank McElligott)
Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2010 11:41:45 -0400
Subject: [ExI] sigh
Message-ID: <003e01cb1ac6$424dc1b0$ad753644@sx28047db9d36c>

Once in a time long ago, a weatherman in Pennsylvania hit the lottery for 2 million, and then 6 months later did the same thing.

The television station he was working for  had kept the lottery balls in a store room while not in use for the daily drawing.

When he hit the lottery TWICE it rasied quite a few hairs, and later it was found out that he had replaced the orginal lottery balls with his set of balls(no pun intended).

He had injected most of  the his balls  with water. The ones not injected  were  lighter, and could rasied by the air jets into the winning spot, while the ones with water injected could only be rasied until their weight forced forced them down into airflow only to be raised again and fall again never entering the winning spot. As soon as the right ball(the lighter one) was place in the airflow it rasied into the winning spot. He was caught because he won to often. If your Psi had you win over and over, you probably could still play, but I think there would be a police car parked at the curb of your home:)

Frank
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100703/5e3d6b29/attachment.html>

From jonkc at bellsouth.net  Sat Jul  3 15:50:02 2010
From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John Clark)
Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2010 11:50:02 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Sigh
In-Reply-To: <4C2E2F7D.8020603@satx.rr.com>
References: <mailman.1.1277553603.2126.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>	<4C28F4B0.2060208@satx.rr.com>	<AANLkTikC-t6dqL-2y30mZRZxglOtFcv7DariVpUBdh9p@mail.gmail.com>	<4C297175.4090308@satx.rr.com>	<57519E9F-6A51-4319-9F1F-BE3D1C315DFE@bellsouth.net>	<4C2984CF.6000905@satx.rr.com>	<BECB43BC-353A-49DD-9524-63150CE2E587@bellsouth.net>	<4C2997EF.3070206@satx.rr.com>	<61D8320D-D73D-4BCF-B272-3E4266B27514@bellsouth.net>	<4C2A22EE.8030601@satx.rr.com>	<009A85B4-D0DF-4979-9371-E0B55472A79A@bellsouth.net>	<4C2A37FB.9050300@satx.rr.com>	<35F4B5D4-1A8B-4FE7-BA05-C1C48D29BCD2@bellsouth.net>	<4C2AD77C.2090901@satx.rr.com>	<DB6B620A-A073-4C43-BAFD-0B87B6BF52B0@bellsouth.net>	<4C2AFBC5.9050400@satx.rr.com>	<AANLkTimoF2nOyh7NqS3K1rmnr5mBD5gcATJFmbXYzUW9@mail.gmail.com>	<641C0BF8-A3D7-4277-A053-11390F516475@bellsouth.net>	<4C2CE3FD.9080801@satx.rr.com>	<10C1866D-FD66-43B2-AD1B-F02F9BC82466@bellsouth.net>	<4C2E1DC1.1080406@satx.rr.com>
	<BA844959-8218-4704-A7C4-4293859A3178@bellsouth.net>
	<4C2E2F7D.8020603@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <4E9727CE-134B-47DC-B6D6-68DAB4DCE6C2@bellsouth.net>

On Jul 2, 2010, at 2:27 PM, Damien Broderick wrote:

> your comment evades the point that by your earlier account the states should be screaming with rage if 1 in 1000 guesses is modified by psi.

If the psi effect is that small then there is no way these third rate psi "researchers" could have detected it. And if the psi effect were larger then that then SOMEBODY looking at lottery or casino raw data should be screaming, either in rage or in delight at having discovered something new and exciting about the world. Neither has happened and I'd be willing to bet money neither will.

> But you still haven't told us what difference you think this would make to the number of prize winners, and whether this would necessarily exceed the noise floor.

So let's see, the psi effect is well below the noise floor in lotteries and casinos with their HUGE sample size, but NOT below the noise floor with "researchers" nobody has every heard of and their insignificantly small sample size. That does not compute. 

> You would not be convinced, however, for the same reason I'm not; although 138 data points drawn from nearly a billion guesses is pretty impressive, it's not really enough to be certain that bias factors have washed out.

I have no idea what you mean by "bias factors". These people payed their dollar, made their guess, and then they either won or they did not.

  John K Clark



-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100703/7979f0d0/attachment.html>

From pharos at gmail.com  Sat Jul  3 16:17:55 2010
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2010 17:17:55 +0100
Subject: [ExI] psi yet again
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinKe8rf9SU7Ud7utf0-AFd8Tnp8WAKT4qE3fAIs@mail.gmail.com>
References: <10707737.960351278089169457.JavaMail.defaultUser@defaultHost>
	<AANLkTinKe8rf9SU7Ud7utf0-AFd8Tnp8WAKT4qE3fAIs@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinaFoNa2KMxWMFeaI7RHJc0eQbgKmTFjPJVXhOF@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/3/10, John Grigg wrote:
> A bit off topic but..., what are some of everyone's favorite
>  depictions of psi within science fiction literature?  I would say
>  Julian May's Pliocene and Galactic Millieu series are at the top of my
>  list.  But the psi abilities in it are at the comic book superhero
>  level of power.
>
>

Well. if Damien's not going to mention them................

Alfred Bester

The Demolished Man (1951)

Tiger! Tiger! (1956)
     aka The Stars, My Destination

These two books helped shape both the New Wave and cyberpunk.


BillK


From eric at m056832107.syzygy.com  Sat Jul  3 16:21:42 2010
From: eric at m056832107.syzygy.com (Eric Messick)
Date: 3 Jul 2010 16:21:42 -0000
Subject: [ExI] Libertarian-spotting field guide
In-Reply-To: <201007031509.o63F94xr013396@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <912945.79061.qm@web27006.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
	<4C2E8C49.2070702@mac.com>
	<AANLkTimHCrYtfp6sq2pNeE54dH7qeh6fMlIMeBT2_O7e@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100703061122.5.qmail@syzygy.com>
	<201007031509.o63F94xr013396@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <20100703162142.5.qmail@syzygy.com>

David Lubkin writes:
>It seems to me that this is parallel to assassination. Assassination is
>widely denigrated as ineffective, cowardly, and beyond the pale.

Yes, as you say, those who might be assassinated have a great
incentive to vilify the practice.  Heads of state don't try to kill
each other because of the danger to themselves.

Saddam Hussein didn't seem to enjoy this protection.  Perhaps he
pushed the sovereign immunity thing too far.

Back to the issue of centralized power:

It seems to me that those who are both inclined to wield power, and
skilled at acquiring it end up as leaders.  It's almost a tautology.
There is no filter in that process to insure that they are also a good
leader.

Democracy is the best such filter that we've tried, as the leader must
somehow manage to get the votes of the ruled.  The incentive is to
game the process, because the extra filter is a nuisance.  I see
little evidence that the general populace understands this incentive
structure.  I hope that augmenting intelligence will help this, but
the incentive is for the rulers to keep the populace dumb.

My only idea for fixing this is open source nanotech, leading to open
source augmentation and uploading.

Any other ideas?

-eric


From jonkc at bellsouth.net  Sat Jul  3 16:02:20 2010
From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John Clark)
Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2010 12:02:20 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Sigh
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTilfAlOofUQvkE_2N1KhA0ypE3p0LVGSVCHQZl6-@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1277553603.2126.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<AANLkTinoxW4asA-zOnA8TJS806mAl0lfc8ArbR7NTRmu@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C26BED5.6070409@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTinrp7FxNz3MOTgK4iGmEOvsAyzQb1MDMP0gJcK5@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C28F4B0.2060208@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTikC-t6dqL-2y30mZRZxglOtFcv7DariVpUBdh9p@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C297175.4090308@satx.rr.com>
	<57519E9F-6A51-4319-9F1F-BE3D1C315DFE@bellsouth.net>
	<4C2984CF.6000905@satx.rr.com>
	<BECB43BC-353A-49DD-9524-63150CE2E587@bellsouth.net>
	<4C2997EF.3070206@satx.rr.com>
	<61D8320D-D73D-4BCF-B272-3E4266B27514@bellsouth.net>
	<4C2A22EE.8030601@satx.rr.com>
	<009A85B4-D0DF-4979-9371-E0B55472A79A@bellsouth.net>
	<4C2A37FB.9050300@satx.rr.com>
	<35F4B5D4-1A8B-4FE7-BA05-C1C48D29BCD2@bellsouth.net>
	<4C2AD77C.2090901@satx.rr.com>
	<DB6B620A-A073-4C43-BAFD-0B87B6BF52B0@bellsouth.net>
	<4C2AFBC5.9050400@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTimoF2nOyh7NqS3K1rmnr5mBD5gcATJFmbXYzUW9@mail.gmail.com>
	<641C0BF8-A3D7-4277-A053-11390F516475@bellsouth.net>
	<4C2CE3FD.9080801@satx.rr.com>
	<10C1866D-FD66-43B2-AD1B-F02F9BC82466@bellsouth.net>
	<AANLkTilfAlOofUQvkE_2N1KhA0ypE3p0LVGSVCHQZl6-@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C745E90E-D605-4C9B-8C4D-AD1C180F5FA0@bellsouth.net>

On Jul 2, 2010, at 9:13 PM, Mike Dougherty wrote:

> The set of "authorities trusted by John Clark" contains either a single member or is actually the empty set.

The set of authorities I trust consists of the editors and most of the authors of Science, Nature, Physical Review Letters and all of the 20 most cited journals in the world. Occasionally the authorities I trust disagree among themselves and then we have a interesting controversy, but neither psi nor cold fusion belongs to that class, the authorities I trust are unanimous, they think both are Bullshit. 

And Mike let me ask you one question, would you believe in psi if it were not more fun to believe it than disbelieve it?

  John K Clark

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100703/ee681afa/attachment.html>

From spike66 at att.net  Sat Jul  3 17:20:45 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (Gregory Jones)
Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2010 10:20:45 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Sigh
In-Reply-To: <C745E90E-D605-4C9B-8C4D-AD1C180F5FA0@bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <365258.63312.qm@web81502.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



--- On Sat, 7/3/10, John Clark <jonkc at bellsouth.net> wrote:
?
>...but neither psi nor cold fusion belongs to that class...

The cold fusion notion is a good running start for me, for I remember clearly the wild debate we had about it at work, in March 1989.? It surprised me that a bunch of guys were willing to buy into it, to the point of speculative?investment paladium.? (There were plenty of non-blievers who were buying up paladium.? If they got out in time, they made big on that.)
?
In the debate at the time, I was the one who took the hardest line that cold fusion had to be impossible, if I understood anything about chemistry.? The nucleii do what they do in the center there all alone, and the electrons wave around out there somewhere.? The electrons and nucleii somehow transmit forces across that yawning empty abyss by some mysterious means, but they really don't *influence* each other to any extent.? So I argued that there is no way any kind of catalyst could cause or influence fusion.? Chemistry is all about electrons.? But I can think of a dozen ways a chemical reaction could have some unnoticed effect or induce a subtle experimental error that could fool even good researchers.
?
The cold fusion notion needed some kind of theoretical basis for me to take interest.? It was always missing that.? Even the standard explanation at the time lacked punch.
?
Regarding psi and lotteries, the same need for a theoretical basis applies.? We are left with something like the "we are all avatars in some meta-simulation" argument, which is actually the most compelling of those I have heard.? Damien's book has a chapter describing alternative theoretical approaches, but?I confess I have not studied it.? Failing that, I am back to trying to find tiny effects in the mechanical device used to generate random numbers.? 
?
A few days ago, we discussed roulette wheels, and the fact that they are not perfect: the frets are not perfectly equal in length?nor perfectly spaced, ruts can eventually wear in the outer edge of the wheel, subtle slight imperfections are unavoidable.? Slot machines are even more susceptible to mechanical imperfections.? In a typical lottery, randomness is generated using numbered ping pong balls in a bowl, which is really good, but not perfect.? The balls can be accidentally or?intentionally weighted or coated, the outer surfaces scuffed or smudged with something sticky or slippery, or something that can impact the air flow around it, a sneaky?operator can add a duplicate number or remove one and possibly not get caught if there is a crooked overseer.? 
?
No mechanical device for generating random numbers is perfect, not even the =rand() function in excel on a computer, which uses internal clock signals as a seed.
?
spike
?
?
?
?
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100703/663102c8/attachment.html>

From thespike at satx.rr.com  Sat Jul  3 17:52:16 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2010 12:52:16 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Sigh
In-Reply-To: <4E9727CE-134B-47DC-B6D6-68DAB4DCE6C2@bellsouth.net>
References: <mailman.1.1277553603.2126.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>	<4C297175.4090308@satx.rr.com>	<57519E9F-6A51-4319-9F1F-BE3D1C315DFE@bellsouth.net>	<4C2984CF.6000905@satx.rr.com>	<BECB43BC-353A-49DD-9524-63150CE2E587@bellsouth.net>	<4C2997EF.3070206@satx.rr.com>	<61D8320D-D73D-4BCF-B272-3E4266B27514@bellsouth.net>	<4C2A22EE.8030601@satx.rr.com>	<009A85B4-D0DF-4979-9371-E0B55472A79A@bellsouth.net>	<4C2A37FB.9050300@satx.rr.com>	<35F4B5D4-1A8B-4FE7-BA05-C1C48D29BCD2@bellsouth.net>	<4C2AD77C.2090901@satx.rr.com>	<DB6B620A-A073-4C43-BAFD-0B87B6BF52B0@bellsouth.net>	<4C2AFBC5.9050400@satx.rr.com>	<AANLkTimoF2nOyh7NqS3K1rmnr5mBD5gcATJFmbXYzUW9@mail.gmail.com>	<641C0BF8-A3D7-4277-A053-11390F516475@bellsouth.net>	<4C2CE3FD.9080801@satx.rr.com>	<10C1866D-FD66-43B2-AD1B-F02F9BC82466@bellsouth.net>	<4C2E1DC1.1080406@satx.rr.com>	<BA844959-8218-4704-A7C4-4293859A3178@bellsouth.net>	<4C2E2F7D.8020603@satx.rr.com>
	<4E9727CE-134B-47DC-B6D6-68DAB4DCE6C2@bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <4C2F78D0.3090008@satx.rr.com>

On 7/3/2010 10:50 AM, John Clark wrote:

> I have no idea what you mean by "bias factors". These people payed their
> dollar, made their guess, and then they either won or they did not.

This is depressing. You admit you don't have any idea what I'm saying, 
but you know it's wrong anyway.

Humans can't make random guesses. We don't feel right repeating the same 
number in a sequence of numbers, for example, yet we do cling to favored 
numbers on separate occasions. People often feel some numbers are 
"lucky" and others aren't. When we place bets on an array of numbers 
from, say, 1 through 50, we tend to choose numbers in the range 1-31, 
since those contain the birthdays of people we love. And so on. This is 
not news.

If you want to see the collective effect of such biases, take a look at 
the normalized scale I posted yesterday from one Lotto draw. These core 
preference factors are quite stable over time, but they do jitter about 
some. This jitter is part of what I referred to as the noise floor. It 
can be countered by averaging many draws. It is not easy to obtain this 
fine-grained detailed from lotteries. (Number of winners is too 
coarse-grained.)

Most parapsychological studies are far simpler and more controlled than 
lottery behavior, so a weak effect is easier to identify. This is a key 
part of the process known as "scientific method," most people on this 
list have heard of it.

Damien Broderick


From spike66 at att.net  Sat Jul  3 19:15:22 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (Gregory Jones)
Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2010 12:15:22 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] global warming discussion 40 yrs ago
Message-ID: <36024.66143.qm@web81506.mail.mud.yahoo.com>


?
Those of you who were around back then, do you remember discussion of global warming in the very early 70s?? I do, and I wondered if I halucinated it.? I recall from those days there was disagreement between experts whether the future would be hotter or colder.? It wasn't clear who was right, but the colder thing was a lot scarier to me.
?
In retrospect we learn that Nixon was a big envionmental guy.? Rather, it shouldn't be big news: a bunch of environmental legislation passed on his watch, the endangered species act, clean air and clean water laws, etc.? Check this:
?
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5iOFcb8sd3JqfxYwXV1OeI9TijfgQD9GNB5MO0
?
?spike
?
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100703/0c10c25e/attachment.html>

From thespike at satx.rr.com  Sat Jul  3 20:03:23 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2010 15:03:23 -0500
Subject: [ExI] global warming discussion 40 yrs ago
In-Reply-To: <36024.66143.qm@web81506.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <36024.66143.qm@web81506.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4C2F978B.7040209@satx.rr.com>

On 7/3/2010 2:15 PM, Gregory Jones wrote:

> Those of you who were around back then, do you remember discussion of
> global warming in the very early 70s?

I published an article, "The Price of Ignorance," an early Greenhouse 
effect piece, in Dec 1969.

In fact, I've been vaguely musing on putting together a book of my 
writing from around that ancient epoch, as a sort of annotated time 
capsule for the incredulous young to leaf through and marvel at The 
Things They Thought Back Then. I wonder if anyone would read it...

Damien Broderick


From thespike at satx.rr.com  Sat Jul  3 20:58:57 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2010 15:58:57 -0500
Subject: [ExI] psi yet again
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinaFoNa2KMxWMFeaI7RHJc0eQbgKmTFjPJVXhOF@mail.gmail.com>
References: <10707737.960351278089169457.JavaMail.defaultUser@defaultHost>	<AANLkTinKe8rf9SU7Ud7utf0-AFd8Tnp8WAKT4qE3fAIs@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinaFoNa2KMxWMFeaI7RHJc0eQbgKmTFjPJVXhOF@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4C2FA491.20401@satx.rr.com>

On 7/3/2010 11:17 AM, BillK wrote:

> if Damien's not going to mention them................
>
> Alfred Bester
>
> The Demolished Man (1951)
>
> Tiger! Tiger! (1956)
>       aka The Stars, My Destination
>
> These two books helped shape both the New Wave and cyberpunk.

Great, kinetic, vivid novels. But Alfie's depiction of psi is straight 
from the comics (which he wrote as well) and has zero to do with actual 
psi. I think he was another instance of the attitude one sf writer 
declared: "All the science I need I get from a bottle of scotch."

Damien Broderick


From udend05 at aol.com  Sat Jul  3 22:24:26 2010
From: udend05 at aol.com (udend05 at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2010 18:24:26 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: [Exl] Psi and EP
In-Reply-To: <8CCE911B1E31982-1F94-1D1B7@webmail-d035.sysops.aol.com>
References: <8CCE911B1E31982-1F94-1D1B7@webmail-d035.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <8CCE915A16C77B0-15DC-F1B0@webmail-m052.sysops.aol.com>


Picking up on Keith's point about psi phenomena and evolutionary psychology - are there other instances of behaviours/traits/abilities developed throughout our history that are as shadowy as so-called paranormal phenomena? I for one cannot think of any. I am not for one instant saying that because we can't see something, it necessarily isn't there (it does not amount to evidence, in that sense), but I am suggesting that if psychic abilities were a part of our evolutionary development, given their obvious selective benefits, why are they not more apparent? Let's face it: if, before setting out to hunt we just knew that a predator lay in wait for us around the next corner, we would know thereby not to go round that next corner. The benefits in this sense are quite clear. Indeed, developing such an ability would, according to the tenets of evolutionary theory, guarantee that the people in the know in this psychic way would be those more likely to survive the travails of life, thus ensuring the survival of the psychic gene for future generations, and thereby its proliferation. Yet instead what we see are debatable phenomena and shadowy statistics.




As to the last, I admit I am by no means a statistician or mathematician, so a lot of what Damien in particular has been saying has gone right over my head, but isn't it more likely for a number superstitiously held on to and thus repeatedly used to come up more often in terms of lottery or casino wins? I mean in the sense that if you keep using the same number it is bound to get drawn at some point - more so than if you kept changing the numbers randomly?


My own belief is that in our pre-history we developed a sense of 'imitative' magic (as in cave-painting images of spears stuck in animals and so on) and from there we have developed a belief in our ability to affect events through the force of our 'will' (I don't mean this word in any specialist sense). Intuition, too, can often be right, and that must reinforce this belief. But I don't believe that when we 'hit it', when we get something right, we are being psychic. It's like the old claim: 'I was thinking about my granny when lo and behold she rang me up.' You're bound to see this as special because the link (oh our pattern-dependent minds!) seems so patently obvious. But think of all the highly unremarkable times you were thinking about your granny and she didn't ring. Being so unremarkable, you forgot those episodes. In the same way, what look like oddities in lottery draws and casino wins are little more than the vagaries of randomness, of the chaos inherent in all these things, of coincidence at work. Anything else would need a great deal more in the way of evidence ('nine out of every ten times I think about my granny, she rings'). Didn't Robert Anton Wilson espouse the magical properties of a certain number? He claimed that once this number was embedded in your consciousness, you would become a part of its magic. It would spring out at you in the unlikeliest places. You would be walking down the street and look up and there it would be - the number of a particular house - the magical number that was beginning to creep into your life. But as the same author pointed out, there is no magic here - only recognition. You would see lots of other numbers, too, but they would not have this magical property, so you wouldn't notice them. But this number, being so magical, you notice all the time. It is nothing more than our brain's way of working.


Evolution has given us many gifts. Those that work are around and evidenced all the time and clearly. Psi itself (an instance of wishful thinking which generates useful positivity) would not seem to be one of those gifts.


Best,
Damian U.
 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100703/2a76d918/attachment.html>

From max at maxmore.com  Sat Jul  3 22:58:49 2010
From: max at maxmore.com (Max More)
Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2010 17:58:49 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Where's my flying car?
Message-ID: <201007032325.o63NPfuH017179@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

Why, it's right here:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38058867/ns/business-autos/

At least it's a start to the retro-future...



From sjatkins at mac.com  Sat Jul  3 23:33:28 2010
From: sjatkins at mac.com (samantha)
Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2010 16:33:28 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Where's my flying car?
In-Reply-To: <201007032325.o63NPfuH017179@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <201007032325.o63NPfuH017179@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <4C2FC8C8.6010401@mac.com>

Max More wrote:
> Why, it's right here:
>
> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38058867/ns/business-autos/
>
> At least it's a start to the retro-future...
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
Reasonably rich pilots can now commute further than ever.  If I was rich 
I would order one.  But charging so much and not including GPS, radio 
and so on is just plain cheap.

- samantha
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100703/613c9001/attachment.html>

From sjatkins at mac.com  Sat Jul  3 23:39:20 2010
From: sjatkins at mac.com (samantha)
Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2010 16:39:20 -0700
Subject: [ExI] global warming discussion 40 yrs ago
In-Reply-To: <36024.66143.qm@web81506.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <36024.66143.qm@web81506.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4C2FCA28.3050604@mac.com>

Gregory Jones wrote:
>  
> Those of you who were around back then, do you remember discussion of 
> global warming in the very early 70s?  I do, and I wondered if I 
> halucinated it.  I recall from those days there was disagreement 
> between experts whether the future would be hotter or colder.  It 
> wasn't clear who was right, but the colder thing was a lot scarier to me.
>  
> In retrospect we learn that Nixon was a big envionmental guy.  Rather, 
> it shouldn't be big news: a bunch of environmental legislation passed 
> on his watch, the endangered species act, clean air and clean water 
> laws, etc.  Check this:
>  
> http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5iOFcb8sd3JqfxYwXV1OeI9TijfgQD9GNB5MO0
>  
>  spike
>  
>
>   
You didn't hallucinate.  I also remember The Population Bomb and other 
things guaranteed to scare children from everyone's favorite scientist, 
Paul Ehrlich.  That this creature is still a professor at one of the 
most prestigious universities in the US greatly undermines my faith in 
the potential of my species. 

- samantha

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100703/c23ba6dc/attachment.html>

From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Sun Jul  4 03:22:51 2010
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2010 23:22:51 -0400
Subject: [ExI] global warming discussion 40 yrs ago
In-Reply-To: <4C2FCA28.3050604@mac.com>
References: <36024.66143.qm@web81506.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<4C2FCA28.3050604@mac.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTilZPGfZxMprnUf3tuo4qpIDWPvSpPHgunp2h7rG@mail.gmail.com>

Samantha wrote:
>
> You didn't hallucinate.? I also remember The Population Bomb and other things guaranteed to scare children from everyone's favorite scientist, Paul Ehrlich.? That this creature is still a professor at one of the most prestigious universities in the US greatly undermines my faith in the potential of my species.
>
### I recently read "Intellectuals and Society" by Sowell, featuring
the good professor as one of the exhibits. Highly recommended to
anti-intellectuals (I realized I am one after reading the book).

Rafal



From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Sun Jul  4 03:33:10 2010
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2010 23:33:10 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Sigh
In-Reply-To: <C745E90E-D605-4C9B-8C4D-AD1C180F5FA0@bellsouth.net>
References: <mailman.1.1277553603.2126.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<AANLkTinoxW4asA-zOnA8TJS806mAl0lfc8ArbR7NTRmu@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C26BED5.6070409@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTinrp7FxNz3MOTgK4iGmEOvsAyzQb1MDMP0gJcK5@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C28F4B0.2060208@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTikC-t6dqL-2y30mZRZxglOtFcv7DariVpUBdh9p@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C297175.4090308@satx.rr.com>
	<57519E9F-6A51-4319-9F1F-BE3D1C315DFE@bellsouth.net>
	<4C2984CF.6000905@satx.rr.com>
	<BECB43BC-353A-49DD-9524-63150CE2E587@bellsouth.net>
	<4C2997EF.3070206@satx.rr.com>
	<61D8320D-D73D-4BCF-B272-3E4266B27514@bellsouth.net>
	<4C2A22EE.8030601@satx.rr.com>
	<009A85B4-D0DF-4979-9371-E0B55472A79A@bellsouth.net>
	<4C2A37FB.9050300@satx.rr.com>
	<35F4B5D4-1A8B-4FE7-BA05-C1C48D29BCD2@bellsouth.net>
	<4C2AD77C.2090901@satx.rr.com>
	<DB6B620A-A073-4C43-BAFD-0B87B6BF52B0@bellsouth.net>
	<4C2AFBC5.9050400@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTimoF2nOyh7NqS3K1rmnr5mBD5gcATJFmbXYzUW9@mail.gmail.com>
	<641C0BF8-A3D7-4277-A053-11390F516475@bellsouth.net>
	<4C2CE3FD.9080801@satx.rr.com>
	<10C1866D-FD66-43B2-AD1B-F02F9BC82466@bellsouth.net>
	<AANLkTilfAlOofUQvkE_2N1KhA0ypE3p0LVGSVCHQZl6-@mail.gmail.com>
	<C745E90E-D605-4C9B-8C4D-AD1C180F5FA0@bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikO2toD0EUa_cx-P8J1y_Pln5Oz_fpo02gVZoO7@mail.gmail.com>

2010/7/3 John Clark <jonkc at bellsouth.net>:
> On Jul 2, 2010, at 9:13 PM, Mike Dougherty wrote:
>
> The set of "authorities trusted by John?Clark" contains either a single
> member or is actually the empty set.
>
> The set of authorities I trust consists of the editors and most of the
> authors of Science, Nature, Physical Review Letters and all of the 20 most
> cited journals in the world.

### Hey, I don't trust the editors of Nature! They are a bunch of
loony climate hysterics!

Rafal



From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Sun Jul  4 03:29:49 2010
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2010 23:29:49 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Libertarian-spotting field guide
In-Reply-To: <201007031509.o63F94xr013396@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <912945.79061.qm@web27006.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
	<4C2E8C49.2070702@mac.com>
	<AANLkTimHCrYtfp6sq2pNeE54dH7qeh6fMlIMeBT2_O7e@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100703061122.5.qmail@syzygy.com>
	<201007031509.o63F94xr013396@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinZlraDj5AoO2gRgiAezJrXq_hSswpZraiUs86B@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Jul 3, 2010 at 11:10 AM, David Lubkin <lubkin at unreasonable.com> wrote:
> Eric Messick wrote:
>
>> I think people tend to ignore this position because anyone with
>> entrenched power will find the position threatening, and work to
>> minimize it.
>
> It seems to me that this is parallel to assassination. Assassination is
> widely denigrated as ineffective, cowardly, and beyond the pale.
>
> A casual dispassionate look suggests it's far more cost-effective than
> open warfare, and far more humane (as measured in death or suffering
> per military objective achieved).

### Let's see: a world where assassination is easy, let's say each
human can inflict a death wish on the mean people. You don't like the
dictator? Off explodes his head. You think your boss is an asshole?
Massive internal hemorrhage solves the problem. Your GF is a slut?
....

You notice the problem with your cost-benefit analysis?

Rafal


From scerir at libero.it  Sun Jul  4 10:10:10 2010
From: scerir at libero.it (scerir)
Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2010 12:10:10 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] R:  Where's my flying car?
Message-ID: <32230868.1154171278238210115.JavaMail.defaultUser@defaultHost>

there is a slightly different implementation ...
http://www.repubblica.it/2007/03/gallerie/motori/auto-venezia/1.html



From giulio at gmail.com  Sun Jul  4 10:32:25 2010
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2010 12:32:25 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Randal A. Koene on Realistic Routes to Substrate Independent
	Minds, Teleplace, July 17, 10am PST
Message-ID: <AANLkTikUEvY1ljYQYb1009M4cc047w5COgO9tEebu7GO@mail.gmail.com>

Randal A. Koene will give a talk in Teleplace on July 17, 2010, at
10am PST (1pm EST, 6pm UK, 7pm CET).
http://telexlr8.wordpress.com/2010/07/04/randal-a-koene-on-realistic-routes-to-substrate-independent-minds-teleplace-july-17-10am-pst/
http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=136364963049075

Realistic Routes to Substrate Independent Minds
Randal A. Koene ? carboncopies.org

Take as a given that the Church-Turing thesis applies to human
thinking, that our minds are complex machines, but machines
nonetheless. Let us also assume that we already understand many of the
scientific, societal and even evolutionary pressures ? as described in
several of my previous talks ? that underscore the need to augment our
minds with the capabilities of machine intelligence and the
adaptability to operate in computational substrates other than those
of the cerebral neurophysiology. What do we know about the possible
target substrates and the procedures that may achieve a transition to
such substrates? Which are the primary remaining scientific
challenges, and which are the engineering hurdles to be overcome? At
carboncopies.org, we are taking steps to identify and formulate
rational approaches to these problems. For example, on one end of the
spectrum we investigate feasible and careful ways to accomplish
subject-specific data acquisition and whole brain emulation, while on
the other we lend support to proposals for commercially viable
developments in cognitive augmentation. We actively encourage peer
review through publications and events such as the workshop on
Advancing Substrate Independent Minds (ASIM-2010) in San Francisco,
August 16-17, 2010.

Those who already have Teleplace accounts for teleXLR8 can just ahow
up at the talk. There are a limited number of seats available for
others, please contact me if you wish to attend.



From lubkin at unreasonable.com  Sun Jul  4 12:18:14 2010
From: lubkin at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin)
Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2010 08:18:14 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Libertarian-spotting field guide
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinZlraDj5AoO2gRgiAezJrXq_hSswpZraiUs86B@mail.gmail.c
 om>
References: <912945.79061.qm@web27006.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
	<4C2E8C49.2070702@mac.com>
	<AANLkTimHCrYtfp6sq2pNeE54dH7qeh6fMlIMeBT2_O7e@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100703061122.5.qmail@syzygy.com>
	<201007031509.o63F94xr013396@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<AANLkTinZlraDj5AoO2gRgiAezJrXq_hSswpZraiUs86B@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <201007041216.o64CGjrx005525@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

I wrote:

 > A casual dispassionate look suggests it's far more cost-effective than
 > open warfare, and far more humane (as measured in death or suffering
 > per military objective achieved).

Rafal replied:

>### Let's see: a world where assassination is easy, let's say each
>human can inflict a death wish on the mean people. You don't like the
>dictator? Off explodes his head. You think your boss is an asshole?
>Massive internal hemorrhage solves the problem. Your GF is a slut?
>....
>
>You notice the problem with your cost-benefit analysis?

What does this straw man have to do with assassination?

What you are describing is ordinary murder, which *is* easy. We *are*
in a world were each human can inflict a death wish on the mean
people, and plenty of bosses and GFs get killed. You don't need to
postulate a magic power.

I am considering situations where actors do initiate or respond with
mass violence to achieve objectives, situations like state-on-state
warfare. I'm not considering whether I agree with those objectives.
Just noting that it is more humane and efficient to achieve them
through assassination.

Compare sending special forces sniper teams to eliminate
military or civilian leaders, in a progressive campaign to weaken
your foe (and perhaps induce those who remain to give you what
you want, lest they be next) with the routinized slaughter of mass
warfare. Why is it ever preferable to bomb cities or even to send
a cadre of 19 year olds off to maim and kill other 19 year olds?

It seems to me the only time that conventional warfare is a preferable
method for achieving your goals is if one of your major goals requires
a mass effect, e.g., mass casualty -- killing the infidels or altering the
demographics of your own country -- or intimidating whole populations.

Parenthetically, while I'm thinking mostly about past state-on-state
warfare, it seems to me that a contracted private defense service
in an AnCap society -- concerned with costs, reputation, lawsuits
from third-party innocents, competitive pricing, return on investment,
etc. -- would naturally gravitate toward techniques that were as
pinpoint as they could make them.

And if they didn't, they'd be supplanted by nimble start-ups, as in
any other business.

Hell, imagine a defense service that not only has low rates but
advertises that their solutions are better for the environment.
A few guys with sniper rifles compared with the lumbering
environmental depletion with every tread of an M-1 tank. There's
even a perfect name for such a business: Greenpeace.


-- David.



From pharos at gmail.com  Sun Jul  4 13:50:29 2010
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2010 14:50:29 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Libertarian-spotting field guide
In-Reply-To: <201007041216.o64CGjrx005525@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <912945.79061.qm@web27006.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
	<4C2E8C49.2070702@mac.com>
	<AANLkTimHCrYtfp6sq2pNeE54dH7qeh6fMlIMeBT2_O7e@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100703061122.5.qmail@syzygy.com>
	<201007031509.o63F94xr013396@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<AANLkTinZlraDj5AoO2gRgiAezJrXq_hSswpZraiUs86B@mail.gmail.com>
	<201007041216.o64CGjrx005525@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimLPwnYvN2XxzT5hswsxl50JpmCkZzU1qm8IdQM@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/4/10, David Lubkin wrote:
>  Compare sending special forces sniper teams to eliminate
>  military or civilian leaders, in a progressive campaign to weaken
>  your foe (and perhaps induce those who remain to give you what
>  you want, lest they be next) with the routinized slaughter of mass
>  warfare. Why is it ever preferable to bomb cities or even to send
>  a cadre of 19 year olds off to maim and kill other 19 year olds?
>
>  It seems to me the only time that conventional warfare is a preferable
>  method for achieving your goals is if one of your major goals requires
>  a mass effect, e.g., mass casualty -- killing the infidels or altering the
>  demographics of your own country -- or intimidating whole populations.
>
>  Parenthetically, while I'm thinking mostly about past state-on-state
>  warfare, it seems to me that a contracted private defense service
>  in an AnCap society -- concerned with costs, reputation, lawsuits
>  from third-party innocents, competitive pricing, return on investment,
>  etc. -- would naturally gravitate toward techniques that were as
>  pinpoint as they could make them.
>
>  And if they didn't, they'd be supplanted by nimble start-ups, as in
>  any other business.
>


I think your libertarian contract killer services are already in
operation in Mexico.

<http://dailycensored.com/2010/07/03/mexicos-july-4-election-has-the-narco-state-arrived/>

Quote:
Nearly 50 candidates and public figures have been assassinated in the
run up to Mexico?s 2010 state elections.
The political murders by the drug cartels are not focused on one
party. The Los Angeles Times suggested that the goal may be to create
chaos and elevate the drug cartel control over the entire Mexican
political system.
-----------
Calder?n was soon faced with the power of Mexican drug cartels, which
began growing exponentially. Total revenue for the nine leading
cartels was estimated at grater than $30 billion for 2007. Today it
may be at three times that figure.

As income grew, the stakes of political power also expanded. The
cartels used kidnapping and murder against public officials to gain
more favorable terms for their operations. Then the cartels began
killing each other and politicians bought by opposing groups. Mexican
citizens were often caught in the cross fire.

Calder?n?s response was to dispatch troops to fight cartel gunmen in
the streets of Mexican cities throughout the nation. Major shoot outs
became common place and accounted for a share of the estimated 22,000
deaths in Mexico?s drug war. In the mean time, well known drug lords
were treated like celebrities.
---------------



One problem with libertarian-type systems is that the bad guys
enthusiastically embrace the 'Do whatever you like' bit and forget
about the 'responsibility' bit. Yea, I know, join a bigger gang or
tell the bad guys your lawyers will sue them.  Yuk.  :(


BillK



From sparge at gmail.com  Sun Jul  4 15:42:43 2010
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2010 11:42:43 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: [Exl] Psi and EP
In-Reply-To: <8CCE915A16C77B0-15DC-F1B0@webmail-m052.sysops.aol.com>
References: <8CCE911B1E31982-1F94-1D1B7@webmail-d035.sysops.aol.com> 
	<8CCE915A16C77B0-15DC-F1B0@webmail-m052.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikx5CsTIJGLTOU9naZmFi70UGqhlkaB4H073nf8@mail.gmail.com>

2010/7/3 <udend05 at aol.com>

> As to the last, I admit I am by no means a statistician or mathematician,
> so a lot of what Damien in particular has been saying has gone right over my
> head, but isn't it more likely for a number superstitiously held on to and
> thus repeatedly used to come up more often in terms of lottery or casino
> wins? I mean in the sense that if you keep using the same number it is bound
> to get drawn at some point - more so than if you kept changing the numbers
> randomly?


No and no. The probability of a number coming up isn't affected in any way
by the number of people who've picked it, assuming there's no psi at work.
Likewise, sticking with a pick doesn't improve one's chances compared to
randomly changing. It might seem counterintuitive, but for a series of coin
tosses, tossing ten heads in a row is no more unlikely than tossing
HHTHHTTHTT.

-Dave
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100704/656a19b1/attachment.html>

From jonkc at bellsouth.net  Sun Jul  4 15:49:33 2010
From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John Clark)
Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2010 11:49:33 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Sigh
In-Reply-To: <4C2F78D0.3090008@satx.rr.com>
References: <mailman.1.1277553603.2126.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>	<4C297175.4090308@satx.rr.com>	<57519E9F-6A51-4319-9F1F-BE3D1C315DFE@bellsouth.net>	<4C2984CF.6000905@satx.rr.com>	<BECB43BC-353A-49DD-9524-63150CE2E587@bellsouth.net>	<4C2997EF.3070206@satx.rr.com>	<61D8320D-D73D-4BCF-B272-3E4266B27514@bellsouth.net>	<4C2A22EE.8030601@satx.rr.com>	<009A85B4-D0DF-4979-9371-E0B55472A79A@bellsouth.net>	<4C2A37FB.9050300@satx.rr.com>	<35F4B5D4-1A8B-4FE7-BA05-C1C48D29BCD2@bellsouth.net>	<4C2AD77C.2090901@satx.rr.com>	<DB6B620A-A073-4C43-BAFD-0B87B6BF52B0@bellsouth.net>	<4C2AFBC5.9050400@satx.rr.com>	<AANLkTimoF2nOyh7NqS3K1rmnr5mBD5gcATJFmbXYzUW9@mail.gmail.com>	<641C0BF8-A3D7-4277-A053-11390F516475@bellsouth.net>	<4C2CE3FD.9080801@satx.rr.com>	<10C1866D-FD66-43B2-AD1B-F02F9BC82466@bellsouth.net>	<4C2E1DC1.1080406@satx.rr.com>	<BA844959-8218-4704-A7C4-4293859A3178@bellsouth.net>	<4C2E2F7D.8020603@satx.rr.com>
	<4E9727CE-134B-47DC-B6D6-68DAB4DCE6C2@bellsouth.net>
	<4C2F78D0.3090008@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <A5DBC681-C0AA-421A-A198-2975F273AEF1@bellsouth.net>

On Jul 3, 2010, at 1:52 PM, Damien Broderick wrote:
> 
> Humans can't make random guesses. We don't feel right repeating the same number in a sequence of numbers, for example, yet we do cling to favored numbers on separate occasions.

True, apparently psi is misleading them.

> People often feel some numbers are "lucky" and others aren't.

And misleading them again.

> When we place bets on an array of numbers from, say, 1 through 50, we tend to choose numbers in the range 1-31, since those contain the birthdays of people we love.

And yet again.

> If you want to see the collective effect of such biases, take a look at the normalized scale I posted

So if you eliminate a very large chunk of wrong answers that psi provides you will find in the remaining answers that psi does better than random probability. Wow what a surprise!

Normalized is such a nice word, so much better than "cooking the books". Damien, if this "bias" toward certain numbers had turned out to work and resulted in more winning numbers would you have thrown them out? Of course you would have not! Not in a million years! This sort of behavior is intolerable in real science.  
> 
> Most parapsychological studies are far simpler and more controlled than lottery behavior

Controlled indeed, controlled to produce exactly the results the "experimenter" wanted to produce. This is a fine example of the quality of psi "researchers" and their methods; but then as I've said if they had  any talent in experimentation they'd be doing real science.

The lottery is the real world, there is no hand waving or fudging the books, you pay your dollar make your guess and then you either win or you do not. Usually you do not, just as the laws of probability say you should not.

 John K Clark   


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100704/389330ac/attachment.html>

From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Sun Jul  4 16:38:37 2010
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2010 12:38:37 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Libertarian-spotting field guide
In-Reply-To: <201007041216.o64CGjrx005525@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <912945.79061.qm@web27006.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
	<4C2E8C49.2070702@mac.com>
	<AANLkTimHCrYtfp6sq2pNeE54dH7qeh6fMlIMeBT2_O7e@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100703061122.5.qmail@syzygy.com>
	<201007031509.o63F94xr013396@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<AANLkTinZlraDj5AoO2gRgiAezJrXq_hSswpZraiUs86B@mail.gmail.com>
	<201007041216.o64CGjrx005525@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimcFXQqqVmKXSZTlDhb2mpLZE6VTXnivl-sNvUI@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jul 4, 2010 at 8:18 AM, David Lubkin <lubkin at unreasonable.com> wrote:
> I wrote:
>
>> A casual dispassionate look suggests it's far more cost-effective than
>> open warfare, and far more humane (as measured in death or suffering
>> per military objective achieved).
>
> Rafal replied:
>
>> ### Let's see: a world where assassination is easy, let's say each
>> human can inflict a death wish on the mean people. You don't like the
>> dictator? Off explodes his head. You think your boss is an asshole?
>> Massive internal hemorrhage solves the problem. Your GF is a slut?
>> ....
>>
>> You notice the problem with your cost-benefit analysis?
>
> What does this straw man have to do with assassination?

### I don't think this is a strawman. See below.
-----------------
>
> What you are describing is ordinary murder, which *is* easy. We *are*
> in a world were each human can inflict a death wish on the mean
> people, and plenty of bosses and GFs get killed. You don't need to
> postulate a magic power.

###  Define the difference between "ordinary murder" and
assassination. As an aside, an offensive war is murder as well.

One of the obstacles that the prospective assassin faces today is the
possibility of being detected and then possibly punished. This feature
of our world saves millions of lives every day. The death wish
situation is a thought experiment that removes this obstacle, allowing
us to examine the problems inherent in cheap and reliable
assassination.

The way I see it, the main difficulty with assassination is precisely
the feature you see as beneficial - its low cost. Instead of
convincing a lot of people to follow you into war, you hire a few
gunmen to achieve control over an adversary. Lower cost means usually
higher demand - there will be a lot of people contracting for
assassins in your world.

----------------------
>
> I am considering situations where actors do initiate or respond with
> mass violence to achieve objectives, situations like state-on-state
> warfare. I'm not considering whether I agree with those objectives.
> Just noting that it is more humane and efficient to achieve them
> through assassination.
>
> Compare sending special forces sniper teams to eliminate
> military or civilian leaders, in a progressive campaign to weaken
> your foe (and perhaps induce those who remain to give you what
> you want, lest they be next) with the routinized slaughter of mass
> warfare. Why is it ever preferable to bomb cities or even to send
> a cadre of 19 year olds off to maim and kill other 19 year olds?

### In a cost-benefit analysis you must take into consideration
long-term secondary effects of your action. If assassination was easy,
it would not end at killing heads of states. Yes, I believe that the
slaughter of millions in conventional warfare is less bad in the long
term than the slaughter of millions by assassins.

-------------------------
>
> It seems to me the only time that conventional warfare is a preferable
> method for achieving your goals is if one of your major goals requires
> a mass effect, e.g., mass casualty -- killing the infidels or altering the
> demographics of your own country -- or intimidating whole populations.

### Having the option to reliably assassinate would not diminish the
incentive use of mass slaughter to achieve such goals, don't you
think? If you want to kill the Jews because you hate their guts, being
able to murder people one by one would not stop you from murdering
them all.

------------------------
>
> Parenthetically, while I'm thinking mostly about past state-on-state
> warfare, it seems to me that a contracted private defense service
> in an AnCap society -- concerned with costs, reputation, lawsuits
> from third-party innocents, competitive pricing, return on investment,
> etc. -- would naturally gravitate toward techniques that were as
> pinpoint as they could make them.

### Decapitating the opposing organization has always been one of the
chief objectives in warfare, so this is nothing new. Mass slaughter of
peons is usually a byproduct of trying to get through to the king by
brute force, when the pinpoint option doesn't work. Note that the US
seriously tried to assassinate Hitler, Castro, and Saddam Hussein for
years, indicating that assassination is not as easy as you think. It
is potentially cheap, but so far couldn't be made to work reliably -
which is good, as my thought experiment would attest.
--------------------------
>
> And if they didn't, they'd be supplanted by nimble start-ups, as in
> any other business.

### Just ask yourself what would be the long-term repercussions of
inventing a technological means of reliably and cheaply killing select
humans. Reliability here implies that no human could take effective
precautions against that technology. Cheapness implies that the path
from wish to its fulfillment is easy.

As an added task, please analyze the effects of this assassination
technology being available to one vs. multiple players, and do it
under two scenarios: the technology is traceable (making direct
retribution possible) versus untraceable. Tell me what you think about
the long-term effects of this invention on human welfare. Don't
hesitate to use game theoretic analysis here.

Compare this to another potential world, where due to alternate
physics the only way of killing a single person belonging to a society
is by destroying the whole society (similar to what you find in one of
Greg Egan's polis societies). Looking at these of two extremes of
physical feasibility of assassination is highly instructive as a
starting point in our cost-benefit analysis.

Rafal


From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Sun Jul  4 16:44:29 2010
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2010 12:44:29 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Libertarian-spotting field guide
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimLPwnYvN2XxzT5hswsxl50JpmCkZzU1qm8IdQM@mail.gmail.com>
References: <912945.79061.qm@web27006.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
	<4C2E8C49.2070702@mac.com>
	<AANLkTimHCrYtfp6sq2pNeE54dH7qeh6fMlIMeBT2_O7e@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100703061122.5.qmail@syzygy.com>
	<201007031509.o63F94xr013396@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<AANLkTinZlraDj5AoO2gRgiAezJrXq_hSswpZraiUs86B@mail.gmail.com>
	<201007041216.o64CGjrx005525@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<AANLkTimLPwnYvN2XxzT5hswsxl50JpmCkZzU1qm8IdQM@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikEjnEM3GPa8drVRWilRGH98tNSmV5-fkIhxHo0@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jul 4, 2010 at 9:50 AM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> One problem with libertarian-type systems is that the bad guys
> enthusiastically embrace the 'Do whatever you like' bit and forget
> about the 'responsibility' bit. Yea, I know, join a bigger gang or
> tell the bad guys your lawyers will sue them. ?Yuk. ?:(
>
### Can't you just lay off ****ing on libertarians? Assassination is
not "libertarian-style", it's just wrong.

Rafal



From thespike at satx.rr.com  Sun Jul  4 17:03:15 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2010 12:03:15 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Sigh
In-Reply-To: <A5DBC681-C0AA-421A-A198-2975F273AEF1@bellsouth.net>
References: <mailman.1.1277553603.2126.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>	<4C2984CF.6000905@satx.rr.com>	<BECB43BC-353A-49DD-9524-63150CE2E587@bellsouth.net>	<4C2997EF.3070206@satx.rr.com>	<61D8320D-D73D-4BCF-B272-3E4266B27514@bellsouth.net>	<4C2A22EE.8030601@satx.rr.com>	<009A85B4-D0DF-4979-9371-E0B55472A79A@bellsouth.net>	<4C2A37FB.9050300@satx.rr.com>	<35F4B5D4-1A8B-4FE7-BA05-C1C48D29BCD2@bellsouth.net>	<4C2AD77C.2090901@satx.rr.com>	<DB6B620A-A073-4C43-BAFD-0B87B6BF52B0@bellsouth.net>	<4C2AFBC5.9050400@satx.rr.com>	<AANLkTimoF2nOyh7NqS3K1rmnr5mBD5gcATJFmbXYzUW9@mail.gmail.com>	<641C0BF8-A3D7-4277-A053-11390F516475@bellsouth.net>	<4C2CE3FD.9080801@satx.rr.com>	<10C1866D-FD66-43B2-AD1B-F02F9BC82466@bellsouth.net>	<4C2E1DC1.1080406@satx.rr.com>	<BA844959-8218-4704-A7C4-4293859A3178@bellsouth.net>	<4C2E2F7D.8020603@satx.rr.com>	<4E9727CE-134B-47DC-B6D6-68DAB4DCE6C2@bellsouth.net>	<4C2F78D0.3090008@satx.rr.com>
	<A5DBC681-C0AA-421A-A198-2975F273AEF1@bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <4C30BED3.5000305@satx.rr.com>

On 7/4/2010 10:49 AM, John Clark wrote:

>> Humans can't make random guesses. We don't feel right repeating the
>> same number in a sequence of numbers, for example, yet we do cling to
>> favored numbers on separate occasions.

> True, apparently psi is misleading them.

What? Try reading Daniel Kahneman and Amos Tversky on heuristics and biases.

>> People often feel some numbers are "lucky" and others aren't.

> And misleading them again.

What?

>> When we place bets on an array of numbers from, say, 1 through 50, we
>> tend to choose numbers in the range 1-31, since those contain the
>> birthdays of people we love.

> And yet again.

What?

 >> If you want to see the collective effect of such biases, take a look
 >> at the normalized scale I posted

 > So if you eliminate a very large chunk of wrong answers that psi
 > provides

What?

 > you will find in the remaining answers that psi does better
 > than random probability. Wow what a surprise!

What?

 > Normalized is such a nice word, so much better than "cooking the books".

If one draw has 2 million entrants and the next (a jackpot week) has 10 
million, adding the raw votes for winning numbers skews the analysis in 
favor of the larger week. The interesting question is whether a larger 
*proportion* of votes goes to, say, 17 when 17 is a winning number than 
when it is not.

Is there anyone else here who doesn't understand this elementary point?

Damien Broderick


From udend05 at aol.com  Sun Jul  4 19:18:30 2010
From: udend05 at aol.com (udend05 at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2010 15:18:30 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: [Exl] Psi and EP
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikx5CsTIJGLTOU9naZmFi70UGqhlkaB4H073nf8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8CCE911B1E31982-1F94-1D1B7@webmail-d035.sysops.aol.com>
	<8CCE915A16C77B0-15DC-F1B0@webmail-m052.sysops.aol.com>
	<AANLkTikx5CsTIJGLTOU9naZmFi70UGqhlkaB4H073nf8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8CCE9C4D22F23E7-1868-1134B@webmail-d032.sysops.aol.com>



>No and no. The probability of a number coming up isn't affected in any way by the number of people who've picked it, assuming there's no psi at work. Likewise, sticking with a pick doesn't improve one's chances compared to randomly changing. It might seem counterintuitive, but for a series of coin tosses, tossing ten heads in a row is no more unlikely than tossing HHTHHTTHTT.


Thanks for this, Dave. I stand corrected. I think I knew about the coin toss from reading Derren Brown's book. However, I don't think it materially affects the rest of my argument.


Best,
Damian U.
 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100704/31bdddf7/attachment.html>

From jonkc at bellsouth.net  Sun Jul  4 18:52:39 2010
From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John Clark)
Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2010 14:52:39 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Sigh
In-Reply-To: <4C30BED3.5000305@satx.rr.com>
References: <mailman.1.1277553603.2126.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>	<4C2984CF.6000905@satx.rr.com>	<BECB43BC-353A-49DD-9524-63150CE2E587@bellsouth.net>	<4C2997EF.3070206@satx.rr.com>	<61D8320D-D73D-4BCF-B272-3E4266B27514@bellsouth.net>	<4C2A22EE.8030601@satx.rr.com>	<009A85B4-D0DF-4979-9371-E0B55472A79A@bellsouth.net>	<4C2A37FB.9050300@satx.rr.com>	<35F4B5D4-1A8B-4FE7-BA05-C1C48D29BCD2@bellsouth.net>	<4C2AD77C.2090901@satx.rr.com>	<DB6B620A-A073-4C43-BAFD-0B87B6BF52B0@bellsouth.net>	<4C2AFBC5.9050400@satx.rr.com>	<AANLkTimoF2nOyh7NqS3K1rmnr5mBD5gcATJFmbXYzUW9@mail.gmail.com>	<641C0BF8-A3D7-4277-A053-11390F516475@bellsouth.net>	<4C2CE3FD.9080801@satx.rr.com>	<10C1866D-FD66-43B2-AD1B-F02F9BC82466@bellsouth.net>	<4C2E1DC1.1080406@satx.rr.com>	<BA844959-8218-4704-A7C4-4293859A3178@bellsouth.net>	<4C2E2F7D.8020603@satx.rr.com>	<4E9727CE-134B-47DC-B6D6-68DAB4DCE6C2@bellsouth.net>	<4C2F78D0.3090008@satx.rr.com>
	<A5DBC681-C0AA-421A-A198-2975F273AEF1@bellsouth.net>
	<4C30BED3.5000305@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <F2704899-0F56-4884-B185-F5E675C47805@bellsouth.net>

On Jul 4, 2010, at 1:03 PM, Damien Broderick wrote:

> "What?" and "What?" and "What?" and "What?" and "What?"

To which my only possible reply is what?

  John K Clark

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100704/0a36a9f8/attachment.html>

From test at ssec.wisc.edu  Sun Jul  4 19:11:59 2010
From: test at ssec.wisc.edu (Bill Hibbard)
Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2010 14:11:59 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [ExI] global warming discussion 40 yrs ago
Message-ID: <Pine.SOC.4.64.1007041405550.11927@sarah.ssec.wisc.edu>

> Those of you who were around back then, do you remember discussion
> of global warming in the very early 70s?? I do, and I wondered if I
> halucinated it.? I recall from those days there was disagreement
> between experts whether the future would be hotter or colder.? It
> wasn't clear who was right, but the colder thing was a lot scarier to me.
>
> In retrospect we learn that Nixon was a big envionmental guy.? Rather,
> it shouldn't be big news: a bunch of environmental legislation passed
> on his watch, the endangered species act, clean air and clean water
> laws, etc.? Check this:
>
> http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5iOFcb8sd3JqfxYwXV1OeI9TijfgQD9GNB5MO0

Interesting.

Here's something fun from 52 years ago:

   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lgzz-L7GFg

Those Bell Labs programs were fun for kids
in the 1950s. Here's another from 1956:

   http://www.archive.org/details/our_mr_sun

Bill


From spike66 at att.net  Sun Jul  4 19:32:53 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (Gregory Jones)
Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2010 12:32:53 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] global warming discussion 40 yrs ago
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOC.4.64.1007041405550.11927@sarah.ssec.wisc.edu>
Message-ID: <379750.61302.qm@web81505.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



--- On Sun, 7/4/10, Bill Hibbard <test at ssec.wisc.edu> wrote:\
?
Here's something fun from 52 years ago:

???http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lgzz-L7GFg

Those Bell Labs programs were fun for kids
in the 1950s. Here's another from 1956:

???http://www.archive.org/details/our_mr_sun

Bill

?
COOL Bill, where the hail did you find this stuff?? I remember them from my misspent childhood!? Whenever the elementary school teacher didn't prepare or didn't feel like teaching that day, we would get to watch this clueless old guy?asking questions of?the smart older guy, and they would?make these kinds of presentations, on that old reel to reel film using projectors that rattled so loud it was hard to hear the dialog.? 
?
The real miracle is what has happened to them in 40 years.? Now they?have become?the smart guy and the clueless young guy.
?
Thanks for the memories. 
?
{8^]
?
spike
?

?
?
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100704/597e0a82/attachment.html>

From pharos at gmail.com  Sun Jul  4 20:28:43 2010
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2010 21:28:43 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: [Exl] Psi and EP
In-Reply-To: <8CCE9C4D22F23E7-1868-1134B@webmail-d032.sysops.aol.com>
References: <8CCE911B1E31982-1F94-1D1B7@webmail-d035.sysops.aol.com>
	<8CCE915A16C77B0-15DC-F1B0@webmail-m052.sysops.aol.com>
	<AANLkTikx5CsTIJGLTOU9naZmFi70UGqhlkaB4H073nf8@mail.gmail.com>
	<8CCE9C4D22F23E7-1868-1134B@webmail-d032.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimDtWEB5GPaVQh1za4Nmi8IXws0tOXCWLG-a-FW@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/4/10, udend05 wrote:
   On 7/4/10, Dave Sill wrote:
> > No and no. The probability of a number coming up isn't affected in any way
> > by the number of people who've picked it, assuming there's no psi at work.
> > Likewise, sticking with a pick doesn't improve one's chances compared to
> > randomly changing. It might seem counterintuitive, but for a series of coin
> > tosses, tossing ten heads in a row is no more unlikely than tossing
> > HHTHHTTHTT.
>
>
> Thanks for this, Dave. I stand corrected. I think I knew about the coin toss
> from reading Derren Brown's book. However, I don't think it materially
> affects the rest of my argument.
>
>


Be careful how you bet on this though.
The odds on throwing specifically ten heads are 1024 to 1. (Same as
any other *specific* ten coin combination).


BillK


From jonkc at bellsouth.net  Sun Jul  4 21:47:09 2010
From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John Clark)
Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2010 17:47:09 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Probability mind benders [was: Psi and EP]
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimDtWEB5GPaVQh1za4Nmi8IXws0tOXCWLG-a-FW@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8CCE911B1E31982-1F94-1D1B7@webmail-d035.sysops.aol.com>
	<8CCE915A16C77B0-15DC-F1B0@webmail-m052.sysops.aol.com>
	<AANLkTikx5CsTIJGLTOU9naZmFi70UGqhlkaB4H073nf8@mail.gmail.com>
	<8CCE9C4D22F23E7-1868-1134B@webmail-d032.sysops.aol.com>
	<AANLkTimDtWEB5GPaVQh1za4Nmi8IXws0tOXCWLG-a-FW@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <511EC224-6014-45A6-BB21-5600CC43AB2B@bellsouth.net>

On Jul 4, 2010, at 4:28 PM, BillK wrote:
>> 
>> 
> Be careful how you bet on this though.


Yes, a lot of stuff about probability is not intuitive. I was reading about a really good one by Gary Foshee at the recent "Gathering for Gardener" conference in Atlanta.

Suppose I tell you that I have 2 children and one of them is a boy, what is the probability I have 2 boys? the correct answer is not 1/2 but 1/3. How can that be? Well there are 4 possible combinations, BB,GG,BG and GB but but at least one is a boy so you can get rid of GG. So all that's left is BB,BG and GB; and in only one of those 3 possibilities do I have two boys.

But Foshee was just getting warmed up!

Now I tell you that I have 2 children and one of them is a boy born on a Tuesday. What is the probability that I have 2 boys? You may think that Tuesday is not useful information in this matter so the answer would be the same as the previous example but you would be wrong. The correct answer is 13/27. How can that be?

Well there are 14 possibilities for EACH kid:
B-Mo, B-Tu, B-We, B-Th, B-Fr, B-Sa, B-Su
G-Mo, G-Tu, G-We, G-Th, G-Fr, G-Sa, G-Su

But I told you the one of my kids (the first or the second) was a boy born on a Tuesday so that narrows down the field of possibilities to: 

First child: B-Tu, second child: B-Mo, B-Tu, B-We, B-Th, B-Fr, B-Sa, B-Su, G-Mo, G-Tu, G-We, G-Th, G-Fr, G-Sa, G-Su.
Second child: B-Tu, first child: B-Mo, B-We, B-Th, B-Fr, B-Sa, B-Su, G-Mo, G-Tu, G-We, G-Th, G-Fr, 
G-Sa, G-Su.

No need to put B-Tu in the second row because it's already accounted for in the first row.
So now just count them out, 14+13= 27 possibilities. How many result in 2 boys? Count them out again 7+6=13. So 13 out of 27 possibilities give you 2 boys.

  John K Clark




-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100704/70d0bbe7/attachment.html>

From x at extropica.org  Sun Jul  4 22:26:39 2010
From: x at extropica.org (x at extropica.org)
Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2010 15:26:39 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Probability mind benders [was: Psi and EP]
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTilRU-zcNgeMvQZ2aDX_Aj_oIOHeMbRvGIDutIC1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8CCE911B1E31982-1F94-1D1B7@webmail-d035.sysops.aol.com>
	<8CCE915A16C77B0-15DC-F1B0@webmail-m052.sysops.aol.com>
	<AANLkTikx5CsTIJGLTOU9naZmFi70UGqhlkaB4H073nf8@mail.gmail.com>
	<8CCE9C4D22F23E7-1868-1134B@webmail-d032.sysops.aol.com>
	<AANLkTimDtWEB5GPaVQh1za4Nmi8IXws0tOXCWLG-a-FW@mail.gmail.com>
	<511EC224-6014-45A6-BB21-5600CC43AB2B@bellsouth.net>
	<AANLkTilRU-zcNgeMvQZ2aDX_Aj_oIOHeMbRvGIDutIC1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimpk42WDPaiQOLiX_ToReGcK2lFvG0J666PPid2@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jul 4, 2010 at 3:24 PM,  <x at extropica.org> wrote:
> the boy also have red hair? If the problem is clearly specified, the

Sorry,

s/clearly/effectively

- Jef


From x at extropica.org  Sun Jul  4 22:24:47 2010
From: x at extropica.org (x at extropica.org)
Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2010 15:24:47 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Probability mind benders [was: Psi and EP]
In-Reply-To: <511EC224-6014-45A6-BB21-5600CC43AB2B@bellsouth.net>
References: <8CCE911B1E31982-1F94-1D1B7@webmail-d035.sysops.aol.com>
	<8CCE915A16C77B0-15DC-F1B0@webmail-m052.sysops.aol.com>
	<AANLkTikx5CsTIJGLTOU9naZmFi70UGqhlkaB4H073nf8@mail.gmail.com>
	<8CCE9C4D22F23E7-1868-1134B@webmail-d032.sysops.aol.com>
	<AANLkTimDtWEB5GPaVQh1za4Nmi8IXws0tOXCWLG-a-FW@mail.gmail.com>
	<511EC224-6014-45A6-BB21-5600CC43AB2B@bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTilRU-zcNgeMvQZ2aDX_Aj_oIOHeMbRvGIDutIC1@mail.gmail.com>

2010/7/4 John Clark <jonkc at bellsouth.net>:
> On Jul 4, 2010, at 4:28 PM, BillK wrote:
>
> Be careful how you bet on this though.
>
> Yes, a lot of stuff about probability is not intuitive. I was reading about
> a really good one by?Gary Foshee at the recent "Gathering for Gardener"
> conference in Atlanta.
> Suppose I tell you that I have 2 children and one of them is a boy, what is
> the probability I have 2 boys? the correct answer is not 1/2 but 1/3. How
> can that be? Well there are 4 possible combinations, BB,GG,BG and GB but but
> at least one is a boy so you can get rid of GG. So all that's left is BB,BG
> and GB; and in only one of those 3 possibilities do I have two boys.

You must mean "not 1/4 but 1/3."  And this is true only under the
slightly incorrect prior that the ratio of male to female births is
1:1.  Like the Monty Hall "paradox", probability, not to be confused
with likelihood, changes with changing evidence.


> But Foshee was just getting warmed up!
> Now I tell you that I have 2 children and one of them is a boy born on a
> Tuesday. What is the probability that I have 2 boys? You may think that
> Tuesday is not useful information in this matter so the answer would be the
> same as the previous example but you would be wrong. The correct answer is
> 13/27. How can that be?
> Well there are 14 possibilities for EACH kid:
>
> B-Mo, B-Tu, B-We, B-Th, B-Fr, B-Sa, B-Su
>
> G-Mo, G-Tu, G-We, G-Th, G-Fr, G-Sa, G-Su
> But I told you the one of my kids (the first or the second) was a boy born
> on a Tuesday so that narrows down the field of possibilities to:
> First child: B-Tu, second child: B-Mo, B-Tu, B-We, B-Th, B-Fr, B-Sa, B-Su,
> G-Mo, G-Tu, G-We, G-Th,?G-Fr, G-Sa, G-Su.
>
> Second child: B-Tu, first child: B-Mo, B-We, B-Th, B-Fr, B-Sa, B-Su, G-Mo,
> G-Tu, G-We, G-Th, G-Fr,
> G-Sa, G-Su.
> No need to put B-Tu in the second row because it's already accounted for in
> the first row.
>
> So now just count them out, 14+13= 27 possibilities. How many result in 2
> boys? Count them out again 7+6=13. So 13 out of 27 possibilities give you 2
> boys.

Your confusion here is not about probabilities, but semantics.  Did
the boy also have red hair? If the problem is clearly specified, the
probabilities are clear and unambiguous.

In both cases, context (implicit or explicit) is significant.

- Jef



From msd001 at gmail.com  Sun Jul  4 23:20:17 2010
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2010 19:20:17 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Sigh
In-Reply-To: <C745E90E-D605-4C9B-8C4D-AD1C180F5FA0@bellsouth.net>
References: <mailman.1.1277553603.2126.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<AANLkTinoxW4asA-zOnA8TJS806mAl0lfc8ArbR7NTRmu@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C26BED5.6070409@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTinrp7FxNz3MOTgK4iGmEOvsAyzQb1MDMP0gJcK5@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C28F4B0.2060208@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTikC-t6dqL-2y30mZRZxglOtFcv7DariVpUBdh9p@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C297175.4090308@satx.rr.com>
	<57519E9F-6A51-4319-9F1F-BE3D1C315DFE@bellsouth.net>
	<4C2984CF.6000905@satx.rr.com>
	<BECB43BC-353A-49DD-9524-63150CE2E587@bellsouth.net>
	<4C2997EF.3070206@satx.rr.com>
	<61D8320D-D73D-4BCF-B272-3E4266B27514@bellsouth.net>
	<4C2A22EE.8030601@satx.rr.com>
	<009A85B4-D0DF-4979-9371-E0B55472A79A@bellsouth.net>
	<4C2A37FB.9050300@satx.rr.com>
	<35F4B5D4-1A8B-4FE7-BA05-C1C48D29BCD2@bellsouth.net>
	<4C2AD77C.2090901@satx.rr.com>
	<DB6B620A-A073-4C43-BAFD-0B87B6BF52B0@bellsouth.net>
	<4C2AFBC5.9050400@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTimoF2nOyh7NqS3K1rmnr5mBD5gcATJFmbXYzUW9@mail.gmail.com>
	<641C0BF8-A3D7-4277-A053-11390F516475@bellsouth.net>
	<4C2CE3FD.9080801@satx.rr.com>
	<10C1866D-FD66-43B2-AD1B-F02F9BC82466@bellsouth.net>
	<AANLkTilfAlOofUQvkE_2N1KhA0ypE3p0LVGSVCHQZl6-@mail.gmail.com>
	<C745E90E-D605-4C9B-8C4D-AD1C180F5FA0@bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimJJlHNhhypsgyewqQ0OsJI6cs2UsG9gJk5MlXQ@mail.gmail.com>

2010/7/3 John Clark <jonkc at bellsouth.net>:
> And Mike let me ask you one question, would you believe in psi if it were
> not more fun to believe it than disbelieve it?

I read this question 3 times and don't understand it with the 'not'
where it is, so I'll normalize it to:
would you believe in psi if it [psi?] were more fun to believe it
[psi?] than disbelieve it [psi?]  To compensate for my normalization,
you can negate my answer where appropriate to arrive at the answer I
might have given if I understood the original, unnormalized question
in the first place.  (else you'll negate my answer wherever you'd
like.)

I would not believe in psi due to any level of fun.  I might claim to
believe in all manner of silliness for the sake of gaining entry to
their parties (with free beer and snacks) - I don't think I would
actually believe what I know to be untrue.  I don't think that's the
same issue as psi.  I imagine you do believe psi is untrue.  You claim
a lack of evidence supports your belief.  I am willing to admit that
we don't know.  I won't try to defend a position that psi is real or
unreal using either suspect statistical 'evidence'  or the complete
lack of any other evidence - to do so would be a matter of Faith.   I
remain open to the possibility but not open to investing money in psi
schemes.  (There is sufficient proof that charlatans do exist)


From msd001 at gmail.com  Sun Jul  4 23:20:29 2010
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2010 19:20:29 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Sigh
In-Reply-To: <365258.63312.qm@web81502.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <C745E90E-D605-4C9B-8C4D-AD1C180F5FA0@bellsouth.net>
	<365258.63312.qm@web81502.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimgkTuLWXt7QiFi__Ixre3SIgz7olrNMPANQ6Ms@mail.gmail.com>

2010/7/3 Gregory Jones <spike66 at att.net>
> No mechanical device for generating random numbers is perfect, not even the =rand() function in excel on a computer, which uses internal clock signals as a seed.

A perfect random number generator in Excel on Windows 7 was my idea.


From kanzure at gmail.com  Mon Jul  5 12:48:54 2010
From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop)
Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2010 07:48:54 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: [tt] NS 2767: Superhuman performance could betray sport
	drug cheats
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.4.64.1007050616570.4468@panix2.panix.com>
References: <Pine.NEB.4.64.1007050616570.4468@panix2.panix.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTilRjIqJpvXvq7HC9KjvOcX_ld9l9uDszwn722GT@mail.gmail.com>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Premise Checker <checker at panix.com>
Date: Mon, Jul 5, 2010 at 5:17 AM
Subject: [tt] NS 2767: Superhuman performance could betray sport drug cheats
To: Transhuman Tech <tt at postbiota.org>


NS 2767: Superhuman performance could betray sport drug cheats
http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20727673.900-superhuman-performance-could-betray-sport-drug-cheats.html
* 30 June 2010 by Jim Giles

HEROICS will be performed this July. The Tour de France lasts 21 days,
covers 3600 kilometres and includes 25 lung-busting climbs in the Alps
and Pyrenees. Each extraordinary performance in the race will, however,
generate suspicion as well as admiration. Allegations of doping have
plagued the Tour for so long that any rider who excels now inevitably
attracts talk of drug use.

But what if a superhuman performance itself could be used as evidence
of doping? That's the thinking behind a new strategy, which asks: "Is
this physiologically possible without the aid of drugs?"

The idea is straightforward: work out the boundaries of human ability,
based on what we know about physiology and its maximal capabilities. If
an athlete's performance lies outside this limit, they are highlighted
as a potential drug-taker and given more frequent and extensive drug
screenings.

The strategy has the backing of many sports physiologists. The French
government is considering using it in sporting events, and the World
Anti-Doping Agency (WADA) is running pilot studies. But there is a
fundamental difficulty: elite sport is all about extraordinary
abilities. Can we really distinguish between exceptional athletes and
their chemically enhanced rivals on the basis of performance?

A key measurement that could be used to investigate its potential is a
cyclist's power output. This is a measure of the energy a rider uses to
drive the bike up a hill (see diagram). One popular drug, the hormone
erythropoietin (EPO), has been shown to increase the peak power output
of healthy volunteers by 16 per cent after four weeks of taking the
drug. It also increased the "time-to-exhaustion", the duration over
which a subject could maintain a high pace, by over 50 per cent
(European Journal of Applied Physiology, DOI:
10.1007/s00421-007-0522-8).

Several successful Tour de France riders, including Bjarne Riis, the
1996 winner, have admitted to using EPO in the mid to late 1990s. Prior
to widespread EPO use, Tour winners' average power output was 380 watts
on big climbs, with none exceeding 410 W, says Antoine Vayer, a
professional cycling coach based in Pordic, France. Riis had an average
power output of 445 W on Tour climbs in 1996. From 1994 onwards, Vayer
calculated that around six riders per year averaged over 410 W. Levels
dropped at the end of the decade as EPO detection, in urine or blood
samples, became more accurate.

Something else that could raise suspicions about a cyclist is a high
VO[2] max--a measure of the maximum rate at which a person uses
oxygen.

The highest VO[2] max figures on record--around 90 millilitres of
oxygen per kilogram per minute--come from cross-country skiers and
rowers, who use a high proportion of the muscles in their bodies. Elite
cyclists generally score lower because their activity uses a smaller
muscle mass.

In one study of 11 world-class cyclists, the highest VO[2] max was 82.5
ml/kg/min (Medicine and Science in Sports and Exercise, vol 34, p
2079). Levels above 85 ml/kg/min are "very rare", says Ross Tucker at
the University of Cape Town in South Africa. Olaf Schumacher at the
University of Freiburg in Germany agrees, saying that values above this
for cyclists are "definitely very high" and beyond what he feels is
"natural".

At the request of New Scientist, Tucker used Vayer's power output data
to estimate the VO[2] max of several riders on the climb of Alpe d'Huez
--one of the longest and steepest on the route--over a number of
years. Assumptions made in the calculation, such as a rider's
efficiency in converting energy into moving the bike, limit its
accuracy, but on the last eight occasions on which the Tour has visited
Alpe d'Huez, Tucker estimates that a number of the riders had a VO[2]
max above 85 ml/kg/min, with some over 90 ml/kg/min (see graph).

Do these high levels reflect a leap in human achievement, or are they a
signature of artificially enhanced physiology? Power outputs have risen
once more since the dip in 2000 and although several riders have had
positive drug tests, there are several with VO[2] max levels above 85
ml/kg/min who have a clean record. Tucker estimates that Lance
Armstrong, the US rider who has won a record seven Tours, would have
produced a VO[2] max of between 88 and 97 ml/kg/min when he climbed
Alpe d'Huez in 2004. Armstrong has not been found to have used
performance-enhancing drugs, which demonstrates the strategy's
limitations.

On the basis of a person's physiological measurements alone, it is
impossible to say otherwise. "Doping can never be inferred from
performance only," says Schumacher.

Nevertheless, Schumacher and others say that these kinds of
sophisticated physiological analyses could aid doping authorities.
Professional cyclists are already subject to regular blood and urine
tests during and outside of races. The results are added to their
"biological passport"--a regularly updated record of each athlete's
test results. Periodic estimates of power output and VO[2] max could be
added to this.

Pierre Sallet, a physiologist and athletics coach in Lyon, France, has
studied this approach for WADA. When analysing one climb in the Tour,
Sallet observed a rider who produced an average power in excess of 480
W for more than 30 minutes, a level which he considers "beyond all
norms" and reason to investigate further.

WADA plans to introduce steroid and hormone data to its biological
passport scheme this year, and says that physiological performance data
could follow. Fred Grappe of the University of Franche-Comt? in
Besan?on, France, is meeting with officials from the French Ministry of
Health and Sports in August to discuss a possible nationwide
performance monitoring programme. Grappe says he would like to use a
combination of lab tests and race monitoring to track performance.

Knowledge of what is considered to be humanly possible may not be
enough on its own, but in parallel with drug tests, physiological
monitoring can give authorities "a good idea of those who are not so
clearly clean", says Fabio Manfredini at the University of Ferrara in
Italy, who is integrating performance data into biathlons this year.
"Then we can try and control them."
_______________________________________________
tt mailing list
tt at postbiota.org
http://postbiota.org/mailman/listinfo/tt




-- 
- Bryan
http://heybryan.org/
1 512 203 0507
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100705/f2ea837e/attachment.html>

From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Mon Jul  5 14:02:59 2010
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2010 16:02:59 +0200
Subject: [ExI] gaming reports
In-Reply-To: <83554.97969.qm@web81505.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <4C2C02F1.6060003@satx.rr.com>
	<83554.97969.qm@web81505.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinuTRXLmEBvTWynI-xPn2r8JloKjTEP9H4wEJwb@mail.gmail.com>

2010/7/1 Gregory Jones <spike66 at att.net>
> Like the 1100 game discussed?previously, the world of gambling?is full of illusions.? Profits are driven by the gambling public's misunderstanding of actual processes.

Why would that be the case? A definite percentage of players stand up
with fuller pockets than they sat with. Even though you are betting
against statistics, some of such bets are by definition won. And you
only care about being amongst those happy some, not about the general
results of the gambling community.

--
Stefano Vaj



From cetico.iconoclasta at gmail.com  Mon Jul  5 14:28:23 2010
From: cetico.iconoclasta at gmail.com (Henrique Moraes Machado (CI))
Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2010 11:28:23 -0300
Subject: [ExI] Where's my flying car?
References: <201007032325.o63NPfuH017179@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <0caf01cb1c4e$5479db10$fd00a8c0@cpdhemm>

<Max More>
>Why, it's right here:
> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38058867/ns/business-autos/
> At least it's a start to the retro-future...
</Max More>

What happened to Paul Moller? His Skycar 
(http://www.moller.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=49&Itemid=57) 
has been in development for like forever plus a day...




From bbenzai at yahoo.com  Mon Jul  5 15:14:05 2010
From: bbenzai at yahoo.com (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2010 08:14:05 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Sigh
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1278331203.19362.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <506681.43915.qm@web114415.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com> asked:


> If one draw has 2 million entrants and the next (a jackpot
> week) has 10 
> million, adding the raw votes for winning numbers skews the
> analysis in 
> favor of the larger week. The interesting question is
> whether a larger 
> *proportion* of votes goes to, say, 17 when 17 is a winning
> number than 
> when it is not.
> 
> Is there anyone else here who doesn't understand this
> elementary point?


Me!

But that's probably because I don't understand the jargon, don't know how a lottery works, and am a bit dim when it comes to maths and especially statistics.  
To be honest, I haven't a clue what you're talking about.

I feel sure there must be more straightforward, less confusing ways of testing the existence or not of psychic powers?  I expect they've been tried, though.

This whole thing reminds me of the 'mobile phones cause cancer' meme:
Studies are done, show absolutely no correlation, so the proponents of the hypothesis conclude that the studies weren't big enough, rigorous enough, long enough, done properly, analysed properly, or were compromised or faked or they were just the wrong studies, etc., etc. (or they argue with the interpretation of the studies, and claim they DO show a correlation).

Meanwhile, everyone else continues using their phones as normal, with no ill-effects.

I should think the 'atheist test' applies here:  Ask the psi-positives (i.e. the people who are positive that there is such a thing) what it would take to convince them otherwise.  Compare this with the answers of the psi-atheists* to the inverse question.

By their answers shall ye know them.


And in answer to John Grigg (I think), or whoever said 'who wouldn't wish that psychic powers were possible?', I reckon I'd have to say me, because it would mean we've got our physics theories /badly/ wrong, yet somehow managed to make it work remarkably well so far.

We'd have to start all over again, reconstructing the theories of physics to completely preserve all the practical results that we see now, but allow for the psychic stuff as well.  A very tall order, I reckon.  Of course, this probably applies to biology too, and maybe lots of other things.


Ben Zaiboc

* using this term deliberately, instead of 'psi-negatives', for obvious reasons> 


      




From bbenzai at yahoo.com  Mon Jul  5 15:26:58 2010
From: bbenzai at yahoo.com (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2010 08:26:58 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Probability mind benders
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1278331203.19362.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <584088.18619.qm@web114406.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

John Clark <jonkc at bellsouth.net> riddled:

> 
> Yes, a lot of stuff about probability is not intuitive. I
> was reading about a really good one by Gary Foshee at the
> recent "Gathering for Gardener" conference in Atlanta.
> 
> Suppose I tell you that I have 2 children and one of them
> is a boy, what is the probability I have 2 boys? the correct
> answer is not 1/2 but 1/3. How can that be? Well there are 4
> possible combinations, BB,GG,BG and GB but but at least one
> is a boy so you can get rid of GG. So all that's left is
> BB,BG and GB; and in only one of those 3 possibilities do I
> have two boys.
> 
> But Foshee was just getting warmed up!
> 
> Now I tell you that I have 2 children and one of them is a
> boy born on a Tuesday. What is the probability that I have 2
> boys? You may think that Tuesday is not useful information
> in this matter so the answer would be the same as the
> previous example but you would be wrong. The correct answer
> is 13/27. How can that be?
> 
> Well there are 14 possibilities for EACH kid:
> B-Mo, B-Tu, B-We, B-Th, B-Fr, B-Sa, B-Su
> G-Mo, G-Tu, G-We, G-Th, G-Fr, G-Sa, G-Su
> 
> But I told you the one of my kids (the first or the second)
> was a boy born on a Tuesday so that narrows down the field
> of possibilities to: 
> 
> First child: B-Tu, second child: B-Mo, B-Tu, B-We, B-Th,
> B-Fr, B-Sa, B-Su, G-Mo, G-Tu, G-We, G-Th, G-Fr, G-Sa, G-Su.
> Second child: B-Tu, first child: B-Mo, B-We, B-Th, B-Fr,
> B-Sa, B-Su, G-Mo, G-Tu, G-We, G-Th, G-Fr, 
> G-Sa, G-Su.
> 
> No need to put B-Tu in the second row because it's already
> accounted for in the first row.
> So now just count them out, 14+13= 27 possibilities. How
> many result in 2 boys? Count them out again 7+6=13. So 13
> out of 27 possibilities give you 2 boys.
> 

I've read this one before, and have to say, even though I've just admitted I'm a duffer at maths, and especially statistics, this is rubbish.

Or rather, it's a trick question.  I'm sure it's not actually rubbish in the world of statistics.  I'm sure the maths is correct. But in the real world?  Given that they already have a boy, and have one more child, who in their right mind would say "I could have a boy and a boy, a boy and a girl, or a girl and a boy"?  G/G is obviously not possible, and B/G is the *same thing* as G/B.  We already know one child is a boy, so the question "what's the probability I have 2 boys?" is a trick question.  It's a different question to "what's the probability that my second child is a boy?", which is a sensible question in the circumstances.

So, what's the probability that my second child is a boy born on a Tuesday? (I've no idea, and don't really know how to work it out, but I strongly suspect the answer is in no way surprising).

Ben Zaiboc


      




From spike66 at att.net  Mon Jul  5 15:30:51 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (Gregory Jones)
Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2010 08:30:51 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] gaming reports
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinuTRXLmEBvTWynI-xPn2r8JloKjTEP9H4wEJwb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <162577.73699.qm@web81504.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



--- On Mon, 7/5/10, Stefano Vaj <stefano.vaj at gmail.com> wrote:
?
?
?
2010/7/1 Gregory Jones <spike66 at att.net>
> Like the 1100 game discussed?previously, the world of gambling?is full of illusions.? Profits are driven by the gambling public's misunderstanding of actual processes.

Why would that be the case? A definite percentage of players stand up
with fuller pockets than they sat with. Even though you are betting
against statistics, some of such bets are by definition won. And you
only care about being amongst those happy some, not about the general
results of the gambling community.

--
Stefano Vaj

?
Certainly, no argument there.? In your example, nearly half of the players walk away with more money than they had to start.
?
The illusion is in the probability of being in that winner's circle.? The 1100 game is a good example.? The game is limited to 50,000 players per round, you pick a number between 0 and 999, and the winners are those who chose the least popular number.? The unsophisticated may estimate their chances of winning at about 1 in 1100 or so, but in fact the chances are more like 1 in 1600.? There are not so many people who know how to calculate those odds closed form, perhaps 10%?? Then maybe half who can write an accurate sim?? That leaves 40% of the proles who will play and play and play,?with a prayer and blind?illusion of hope.
?
spike
?
?

?
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100705/da894af1/attachment.html>

From jonkc at bellsouth.net  Mon Jul  5 16:05:51 2010
From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John Clark)
Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2010 12:05:51 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Probability mind benders
In-Reply-To: <584088.18619.qm@web114406.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <584088.18619.qm@web114406.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <7FB5D8BF-1A7E-4333-A7BE-31E5C3CA4537@bellsouth.net>

On Jul 5, 2010, at 11:26 AM, Ben Zaiboc wrote:

> I've read this one before, and have to say, even though I've just admitted I'm a duffer at maths, and especially statistics, this is rubbish. Or rather, it's a trick question. 

It's neither rubbish or a trick question and statistical reasoning of this sort would be perfectly at home in a scientific paper. The thing is, probability (if you don't mean probability in the quantum world) is not a reflection of the thing itself but is a measure of our ignorance of it. If I ask "what is the probability that I have 2 boys?" the answer to me would be either zero or 100% but you don't know as much about my life as I do so your probability would be different.

On the other hand, in the quantum world it does seem that probability may be part of the thing itself and even after 80 years philosophers haven't worked out the confusing implications of that. 

  John K Clark

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100705/1aceed76/attachment.html>

From thespike at satx.rr.com  Mon Jul  5 16:42:01 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2010 11:42:01 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Sigh
In-Reply-To: <506681.43915.qm@web114415.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <506681.43915.qm@web114415.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4C320B59.9000406@satx.rr.com>

On 7/5/2010 10:14 AM, Ben Zaiboc wrote:

> I don't understand the jargon, don't know how a lottery works, and am a bit dim when it comes to maths and especially statistics.
> To be honest, I haven't a clue what you're talking about.

That's delightfully honest!

It seems pretty straightforward to me, but I spent a bit of time 
thinking about it.

> I feel sure there must be more straightforward, less confusing ways of testing the existence or not of psychic powers?

Please suggest some.

> I expect they've been tried, though.

Yes, and they all work, but weakly.

> I should think the 'atheist test' applies here:  Ask the psi-positives (i.e. the people who are positive that there is such a thing) what it would take to convince them otherwise.  Compare this with the answers of the psi-atheists* to the inverse question.

It might be like asking physicists what it would take to convince them 
that dark matter doen't exist. Nobody yet knows what dark matter is; 
it's a placeholder to explain various anomalous observations that have 
been made for decades. A new theory might show that the anomalies are 
not really surprising, because (for example) quantum gravity works in a 
weird unexpected way, so dark matter doesn't actually exist--but the 
*observations* are still valid.

Even observations can be made to go away. Relativity got rid of the 
planet Vulcan, and also showed that the apparent observations of that 
supposed planet must have been mistaken as well. N-rays went away. But 
to my knowledge, nobody has yet explained the anomalies that 
parapsychologists find when they try to influence or perceive the world 
by unmediated mental effort. (Except by claiming that they are all lying 
or careless or stupid or driven into error by wishful thinking; in my 
experience, only the latter could possibly be right, and applies just as 
easily to those who deny the anomalies.)

Damien Broderick


From x at extropica.org  Mon Jul  5 17:11:40 2010
From: x at extropica.org (x at extropica.org)
Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2010 10:11:40 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Probability mind benders
In-Reply-To: <7FB5D8BF-1A7E-4333-A7BE-31E5C3CA4537@bellsouth.net>
References: <584088.18619.qm@web114406.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<7FB5D8BF-1A7E-4333-A7BE-31E5C3CA4537@bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimuOr5Qz1ls2sYTxeZeS7yC49wsVlpL-7jEb12q@mail.gmail.com>

2010/7/5 John Clark <jonkc at bellsouth.net>:
> On Jul 5, 2010, at 11:26 AM, Ben Zaiboc wrote:
>
> I've read this one before, and have to say, even though I've just admitted
> I'm a duffer at maths, and especially statistics, this is rubbish.?Or
> rather, it's a trick question.
>
> The thing is probability...is not a reflection of the thing itself but is a measure of our ignorance of it.

Thanks John.  I was going to make precisely this point in response to
Ben, adding that upon the problem being effectively specified, it's
effectively solved.

As for "true" quantum randomness, it's not clear that this distinction
makes a difference.  Perhaps scerir can point us in a useful direction
in this regard.

- Jef



From mail at harveynewstrom.com  Mon Jul  5 16:56:59 2010
From: mail at harveynewstrom.com (mail at harveynewstrom.com)
Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2010 09:56:59 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Probability mind benders [was: Psi and EP]
Message-ID: <20100705095659.d32794d095cdfcc0018508d9c136b552.b6fe56eabd.wbe@email09.secureserver.net>

John Clark <jonkc at bellsouth.net> wrote,
> Now I tell you that I have 2 children and one of them is a boy born on a Tuesday.

Ambiguous in english.  Does it mean that only one child is a boy?  At
least one child is a boy?  Only one child is both a boy and born on
Tuesday?  At least one child is both a boy and born on Tuesday?

The people who calculate this "wrong" are mathematically correct for the
question they think they are being asked.  When the question is asked
clearly, nobody calculates it wrong.

This is not an example of non-intuitive statistics.

--
Harvey Newstrom, Principal Security Architect
CISSP CISA CISM CGEIT CSSLP CRISC CIFI NSA-IAM ISSAP ISSMP ISSPCS IBMCP





From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Mon Jul  5 17:56:29 2010
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2010 19:56:29 +0200
Subject: [ExI] mind body dualism
In-Reply-To: <732467.6723.qm@web36502.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <732467.6723.qm@web36502.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimgs4rYqFFOie84GjH7zTjdGPtl1n5F-62dERfr@mail.gmail.com>

On 1 July 2010 17:01, Gordon Swobe <gts_2000 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> It seems obvious to me that one must embrace a form of mind-body dualism
> before accepting the belief, common here on ExI, that humans will someday
> have the technology to upload their personalities into some digital realm
> while leaving their organic bodies behind.

No, this is where I beg to differ. I can well upload a movie on a PC
without believing in a possible "essence" of movies which would be
independent from a physical substratum.

> I note also that digital simulations (or emulations) of digestion do not
> actually digest food. Digital simulations of organic processes never actually perform the processes they simulate. They merely simulate those processes.

There again, this is a mere POV. A Mac emulating a PC is a PC in one
sense (say, at a user level), and not in another (say, the people
designing the system).

Functional equivalence at the sociological level is what (will)
define(s) human upload on different platforms - as well as continuing
identity on the same biological substratum in spite of its material
alterations for that matter - the rest being mere matters of faith
which will end up being little more than a historical curiosity.

-- 
Stefano Vaj


From thespike at satx.rr.com  Mon Jul  5 18:25:35 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2010 13:25:35 -0500
Subject: [ExI] mind body dualism
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimgs4rYqFFOie84GjH7zTjdGPtl1n5F-62dERfr@mail.gmail.com>
References: <732467.6723.qm@web36502.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<AANLkTimgs4rYqFFOie84GjH7zTjdGPtl1n5F-62dERfr@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4C32239F.5000408@satx.rr.com>

On 7/5/2010 12:56 PM, Stefano Vaj wrote:
> Functional equivalence at the sociological level is what (will)
> define(s) human upload on different platforms - as well as continuing
> identity on the same biological substratum in spite of its material
> alterations for that matter - the rest being mere matters of faith
> which will end up being little more than a historical curiosity.

Extrope posters have been going back and forth of this topic for 
something like 20 years without anyone being converted to a different 
position, as far as I know.

Just (again) for the record: I think the subject header is missing the 
point. What's in question is more like mind-body duality, or mind/body 
duality.

There is no mind without a brained body to instantiate mental processes, 
but that doesn't mean the body has to be identical to the current 
organic design derived from evolution. However it does not for a moment 
follow that if a machine makes a perfect copy of me (the duality part of 
the phrase) I will happily give up my life, knowing that my identical 
twin lives on. Hell, no.

"Functional equivalence at the sociological level"--a teleporter "clone" 
identifical to the original--might very well become accepted once such 
an innovation arrives, but the doctrine of functional equivalence at the 
sociological level is what fascist and communist and corporate 
consumerist ideologies use to make individual persons fungible and 
disposable. Hell, no.

Damien Broderick


From jonkc at bellsouth.net  Mon Jul  5 19:31:08 2010
From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John Clark)
Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2010 15:31:08 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Probability mind benders [was: Psi and EP]
In-Reply-To: <20100705095659.d32794d095cdfcc0018508d9c136b552.b6fe56eabd.wbe@email09.secureserver.net>
References: <20100705095659.d32794d095cdfcc0018508d9c136b552.b6fe56eabd.wbe@email09.secureserver.net>
Message-ID: <1EC9AA5C-6862-4A15-A38A-EDF0A7D3AE97@bellsouth.net>

On Jul 5, 2010, at 12:56 PM, mail at harveynewstrom.com wrote:

>> Now I tell you that I have 2 children and one of them is a boy born on a Tuesday.
> 
> Ambiguous in english.

It's ambiguous only in the sense of being incomplete, it does contain clear and valuable information even if not as much as we'd like. Almost everything scientists study is ambiguous in that way, that's why they use probability so much. 

And probability can be massively counterintuitive even for great minds. No less a mathematician than the great Paul Erdos got the Monty Hall Problem wrong. For a surprisingly long time he kept insisting that it can't be true. Eventually his colleagues did convince him that it was correct, but even then he felt dissatisfied and vaguely depressed; he knew it was true but it still didn't feel true.   

>  Does it mean that only one child is a boy?

Answering that question is the entire point of the exercise, is there one boy or two, and we can't know the answer with certainty but there are useful indications we can use, indications obtained by those "ambiguous" statements. We know for sure one one kid is a boy, perhaps 2 perhaps not. We don't know but we can make an educated guess and that's what probability is all about.

> The people who calculate this "wrong" are mathematically correct for the
> question they think they are being asked.  When the question is asked
> clearly, nobody calculates it wrong.

I have no idea what that means.

> This is not an example of non-intuitive statistics.

Well, there is the old chestnut about picking 23 people at random and finding that there is a greater than a 50% chance that two of them were born on the same day of the year, but I don't think it's quite as good, it's a bit easier seeing how that would be true.

  John K Clark





-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100705/eabb5795/attachment.html>

From scerir at libero.it  Mon Jul  5 19:25:54 2010
From: scerir at libero.it (scerir)
Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2010 21:25:54 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] Probability mind benders
Message-ID: <17137060.1204611278357954414.JavaMail.defaultUser@defaultHost>

> As for "true" quantum randomness, it's not clear that this distinction
> makes a difference.  
- Jef

Also regarding quantum stuff (quantum randomness in particular)
there is an "ignorance interpretation" essentially due to Einstein
and, later, to Leslie E. Ballentine (sometimes it is called "statistical
interpretation" and not "ignorance interpretation"). Also the late
P.A.M. Dirac seemed to like a sort of "ignorance" interpretation,
meaning here that we still do not know what should be the ultimate
true quantum formalism.

Of course one should also remember that according to the early
P.A.M. Dirac quantum randomness is "in re ipsa", and has nothing to
do with observers, or humans. One should also remember that according
to W. Heisenberg and J. von Neumann there is a psychophysical parallelism
between the physical event and the consciousness of the observer,
so it is not so clear (at least to me) whether the supposed randomness
resides in the consciousness or "in re" or in both.  

Not to mention here the relation between Bayes and quantum probability. 
http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/bayes.html
http://info.phys.unm.edu/papers/2001/Schack2001a.pdf
http://info.phys.unm.edu/~caves/thoughts2.2.pdf

Also notice that it is hard to find an easy experimental difference 
between quantum and non-quantum randomness. 
http://arxiv.org/abs/1004.1521
http://arxiv.org/abs/0912.4379
http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0611029

Quite frankly I think that quantum randomness is something deeper
than any "ignorance" interpretation. More than that it should be interesting
to study in much detail the (possible) relation between quantum randomness 
(whatever this means) and quantum non-locality and quantum non-separability.
That is, a relation between the algebraic quantum formalism (superposition, 
linearity,
entanglement, non-commutativity) and the geometric (or space-time) 
consequences
of the quantum formalism. It is (perhaps) possible to see that quantum 
randomness
(whatever this means) protects the principle of relativity (no FTL signals), 
at least in
certain cases. On the contrary, a deterministic (say, hidden variable) quantum 
theory 
would allow FTL signaling. (Yes, Bohmian mechanics is a sort of hidden 
variable 
deterministic quantum mechanics, but it is not fully deterministic).
See Seevinck's long paper (268 pages) at
http://philsci-archive.pitt.
edu/archive/00004583/01/DissertationMPSeevinck_philsci2.pdf
For another p.o.v., see the following papers by Travis Norsen,
http://arxiv.org/abs/0808.2178
http://arxiv.org/abs/0707.0401
http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0601205
http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0607057

There is a similar old issue in a classical context: Is it possible that if I 
rise
my hand (or my arm) while the roulette is spinning, and the ball is still 
moving,
this fact may influence .....   :-))) 
  




From jonkc at bellsouth.net  Mon Jul  5 20:03:38 2010
From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John Clark)
Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2010 16:03:38 -0400
Subject: [ExI] mind body dualism.
In-Reply-To: <4C32239F.5000408@satx.rr.com>
References: <732467.6723.qm@web36502.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<AANLkTimgs4rYqFFOie84GjH7zTjdGPtl1n5F-62dERfr@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C32239F.5000408@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <B7D916C5-FB92-4425-929D-7FFDF325198A@bellsouth.net>

On Jul 5, 2010, at 2:25 PM, Damien Broderick wrote:
> 
> Extrope posters have been going back and forth of this topic for something like 20 years without anyone being converted to a different position, as far as I know.

Often in Science a revolutionary idea does not become the new paradigm by convincing people, rather it happens by waiting for those who hold onto the old view to die and for a new generation to take over. People who have your views will be reluctant to engage in peddle to the metal upgrading for fear of interfering with the soul, or whatever euphemism you prefer for that concept; people with views like mine will have no such reservations. Guess who will win. 

>  the doctrine of functional equivalence at the sociological level is what fascist and communist and corporate consumerist ideologies use to make individual persons fungible and disposable.

I hate to break it to you Damien, but at the deepest level our bodies are fungible and if you don't like that fact feel free to rage about it if that makes you feel better. It won't change a thing.

But of course that is only at the deepest level and up to now that fact has had no practical consequences, but you can bet your soul that it's only a matter of time until it does. 

 John K Clark


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100705/22000884/attachment.html>

From jonkc at bellsouth.net  Mon Jul  5 20:10:54 2010
From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John Clark)
Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2010 16:10:54 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Probability mind benders
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimuOr5Qz1ls2sYTxeZeS7yC49wsVlpL-7jEb12q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <584088.18619.qm@web114406.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<7FB5D8BF-1A7E-4333-A7BE-31E5C3CA4537@bellsouth.net>
	<AANLkTimuOr5Qz1ls2sYTxeZeS7yC49wsVlpL-7jEb12q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1718C196-A693-4C1D-91F8-71E507F5CD23@bellsouth.net>

On Jul 5, 2010, at 1:11 PM, x at extropica.org wrote:

> As for "true" quantum randomness, it's not clear that this distinction
> makes a difference.  

It depends on what quantum interpretation is correct. If Copenhagen is true then probability really can be part of the thing itself. If Everett and his Many Worlds is true then probability is always just a measure of out ignorance and quantum probability is no different from classical probability.

 John K Clark



-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100705/6ab4da2c/attachment.html>

From msd001 at gmail.com  Mon Jul  5 22:26:52 2010
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2010 18:26:52 -0400
Subject: [ExI] mind body dualism.
In-Reply-To: <B7D916C5-FB92-4425-929D-7FFDF325198A@bellsouth.net>
References: <732467.6723.qm@web36502.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<AANLkTimgs4rYqFFOie84GjH7zTjdGPtl1n5F-62dERfr@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C32239F.5000408@satx.rr.com>
	<B7D916C5-FB92-4425-929D-7FFDF325198A@bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTilKRQjIZtC37Xq9Oytnf9dtVnF5jRhGCK3Sprk6@mail.gmail.com>

2010/7/5 John Clark <jonkc at bellsouth.net>:
> But of course that is only at the deepest level and up to now that fact has
> had no practical consequences, but you can bet your soul that it's only a
> matter of time until it does.

Careful if you bet your soul - psi influence could affect probability
such that you may lose it.  Though I guess if you believe there is no
such thing as a soul, then betting against it is simply taking
advantage of the poor fool who accepts the bet, eh?

If you believe in no soul and no psi, then I guess you enter that
wager with an expected outcome of no loss or monetary gain that is as
completely fair as honest statistics.  Ok, so honest statistics may be
a farce too...

I wonder if there were more people with absolute certainty in the no
soul/no psi camp, could an exploit be created to take advantage of
that groups belief in pure maths?

I consider this much like the "Macs don't get viruses" mantra touted
at PC users for 20+ years.  The fact was until recently there was
little incentive to design exploits around such a small community of
users.  Today, iPhones and iPads are potentially huge targets.  I
imagine completely rational atheist mathematicians are too few in
number to warrant engineering an attack meme.  (it'd be a lot of work
for a small payoff)   If sense were to prevail, however, we'd see more
419-style scams targeting this group.  Obviously they'd have to be
much more clever.  :)


From gts_2000 at yahoo.com  Mon Jul  5 23:37:05 2010
From: gts_2000 at yahoo.com (Gordon Swobe)
Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2010 16:37:05 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] [Wittrs] Re: The System Level Issue
Message-ID: <736436.92172.qm@web36505.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

--- On Mon, 7/5/10, someone wrote:

> --- In Wittrs at yahoogroups.com,
> "someone else" <wittrsamr at ...> wrote:
> 
>> He is arguing that it doesn't make
>> sense to posit that algorithms (computations)
>> are of a natural kind enough to be the basis for
>> _explaining_ how consciousness may come to be.
> 
> I read this and the following questions run around in
> mind.

Without answering your questions in detail (I'll leave that to the person to whom you addressed) consider that computations have descriptive but not explanatory powers.

I might for example write a computer simulation that describes and illustrates in perfect detail a person P driving a nail of specification S with force F with a hammer of mass M into wood with density D. If my simulation takes all the relevant parameters then we will know with certainty the depth to which the person will drive the nail into the wood with his hammer. But does my simulation actually constitute a person driving a nail into wood? Or cause such a thing to happen? Of course not. 

Short of believing in some silly religion in which we all live as avatars in some glorified computer game, we must assume that the world exists before we make computations about it. It does not follow from the fact that we can compute process X that process X = a computation.

Does my digital simulation even _explain_ the process of man-hammer-nail-wood? No, it does no more than describe the process in terms of tentative and fallible hypotheses about the biology and physics of people driving nails into wood.

In other words, digital simulations or emulations of real process do not actually perform the processes they simulate. They serve only as models of or theories about those real processes. 

I think we can and should create models and theories about real things and processes, including real brain processes. I think we should not however conflate our models and theories with the real processes they're about. A model of a thing is not the thing modeled, even when the model is digital and the thing is a brain.

cc: ExI (relevant to the mind-body dualism thread)

-gts 








      


From jonkc at bellsouth.net  Tue Jul  6 03:19:49 2010
From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John Clark)
Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2010 23:19:49 -0400
Subject: [ExI] [Wittrs] Re: The System Level Issue.
In-Reply-To: <736436.92172.qm@web36505.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <736436.92172.qm@web36505.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAF28387-EA8D-4712-83A7-672902746364@bellsouth.net>

On Jul 5, 2010, at 7:37 PM, Gordon Swobe wrote:

> consider that computations have descriptive but not explanatory powers.

I could be mistaken but I believe you may have mentioned that before.

> does my simulation actually constitute a person driving a nail into wood? Or cause such a thing to happen? Of course not. 

> I could be mistaken but I believe you may have mentioned that before.

> It does not follow from the fact that we can compute process X that process X = a computation.

> I could be mistaken but I believe you may have mentioned that before.

> digital simulations or emulations of real process do not actually perform the processes they simulate.

I could be mistaken but I believe you may have mentioned that before.

> They serve only as models of or theories about those real processes.

> I could be mistaken but I believe you may have mentioned that before.
> 
> we should not however conflate our models and theories with the real processes they're about.

I could be mistaken but I believe you may have mentioned that before.

> A model of a thing is not the thing modeled

I could be mistaken but I believe you may have mentioned that before.

 John K Clark


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100705/63e5cf39/attachment.html>

From bbenzai at yahoo.com  Tue Jul  6 06:56:20 2010
From: bbenzai at yahoo.com (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2010 23:56:20 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Belief in maths (was  mind body dualism)
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1030.1278386441.10820.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <348701.85627.qm@web114406.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

Mike Dougherty <msd001 at gmail.com> claimed that:


> ... people with absolute certainty
> in the no soul/no psi camp

have a
...

> belief in pure maths


I'm puzzled by this.

If I can assume that by 'pure maths', you mean logic, you seem to be saying that people who have absolute certainty (I'm making another assumption that this means "think that it's overwhelmingly likely") that there is no such thing as either a soul or psi, have come to this conclusion by logical reasoning, rather than, say, lack of evidence to the contrary.

Don't forget that 'no soul' and 'no psi' are the null hypotheses.  Anyone who claims that either of these things exists needs to provide evidence or a  convincing logical argument.  Anyone who doesn't, doesn't.  No logic (or maths) needed.

Or are you the type of person who, when told that there are no hypercubical golden dragons living underground on the far side of Titan, says "Ah, but you can't prove that, can you?!?!"

Ben Zaiboc


      




From giulio at gmail.com  Tue Jul  6 08:24:47 2010
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 10:24:47 +0200
Subject: [ExI] David Pearce at TransVision 2010: Fostering Post-Darwinian
	Life
Message-ID: <AANLkTikzFvpoSRDBIEmnteCORKuZYAX25aChpsNJdbTq@mail.gmail.com>

http://transvision2010.wordpress.com/2010/07/06/david-pearce-at-transvision-2010-fostering-post-darwinian-life/

David Pearce will give a talk at TransVision
2010<http://transvision2010.wordpress.com/2010/07/06/david-pearce-at-transvision-2010-fostering-post-darwinian-life/>
:

*Fostering Post-Darwinian Life
The case for paradise-engineering
by David Pearce <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Pearce_(philosopher)>

In the state-space of all possible minds, presumably only a tiny percentage
can ever be physically realized ? since matter, energy and information in
the accessible universe are all finite. So we need to consider not just
whether intuitively it is ethically good or bad for a sentient being ? or
species of sentient beings ? to exist, but also the cost of such existence
in terms of opportunities forgone. Some minds are clearly much more
beautiful than others. For example, when the technology matures, would it be
better if all our matter and energy were converted into different species of
posthuman ?smart angel??

Our response to this question may depend at least in part on how it is
posed. Thus if asked whether you?d take a wonderpill that overnight made you
several orders of magnitude smarter, happier and more ethically
sophisticated than you are now, then one might say yes. On the other hand,
if asked whether you?d consent to having your brain reformatted and its
matter reprogrammed into a different sentient being who was unimaginably
more wonderful, then one might say no. For such a supermind wouldn?t be
?me?.

More generally, a problem with being a classical utilitarian is that one is
(apparently) obliged to seek the extinction of all existing species,
including humans. This is because our matter and energy could be used more
efficiently to produce utilitronium ? whether in the guise of orgasmium,
hedonium, pleasure plasma or Jupiter brains is still unclear. Critics might
see this conclusion as a reductio of classical utilitarian ethics. Yet in a
world run on utilitarian principles, it?s hard to see how such an outcome
could be avoided, in the long run, on pain of inconsistency. True, the
physical capacity to manufacture utilitronium is decades away at best, and
perhaps centuries or more. So this argument might seem idle philosophizing.
But the classical utilitarian is supposed to recognize that time-discounting
at a rate different from zero is morally unacceptable too.

In this talk, I shall argue that we should strive for an impartial,
?God?s-eye-view? in ethics, just as we do in natural science. Thus we should
aim computationally to maximise the cosmic abundance of subjectively
hypervaluable states in our Hubble volume. This entails fostering the
emergence and spread of post-Darwinian life. I predict our descendants ? and
maybe our mature selves ? will be wiser and happier beyond the bounds of
normal human experience.*

TransVision 2010 <http://transvision2010.wordpress.com/tv2010/> is a global
transhumanist conference and community convention, organized by several
transhumanist activists, groups and organizations, under the executive
leadership of the Italian Transhumanist Association<http://transumanisti.it/>
 (AIT) and with the collaboration of an Advisory Board. The event will take
place on October 22, 23 and 24, 2010 in Milan,
Italy<http://transvision2010.wordpress.com/logistics/>with
many options for remote online
access<http://transvision2010.wordpress.com/tvirtual/>
.

*Register now <http://transvision2010.wordpress.com/registration/>*

to take advantage of our special early Bird rates, post links to Twitter,
your blogs and websites, and add your name to the TransVision 2010 Facebook
page <http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=131547903544971>.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100706/26407861/attachment.html>

From stathisp at gmail.com  Tue Jul  6 09:58:26 2010
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 19:58:26 +1000
Subject: [ExI] [Wittrs] Re: The System Level Issue
In-Reply-To: <736436.92172.qm@web36505.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <736436.92172.qm@web36505.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikvJuHPzvgaJv57dx53MsIP4rB-Cxm4x3OzWOpW@mail.gmail.com>

On 6 July 2010 09:37, Gordon Swobe <gts_2000 at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Short of believing in some silly religion in which we all live as avatars in some glorified computer game, we must assume that the world exists before we make computations about it. It does not follow from the fact that we can compute process X that process X = a computation.

Even if we don't in fact live as avatars in a computer game, the point
is that we could be. We wouldn't know. Moreover, if both are
equivalent in content we would have no good reason to prefer being in
reality to being in the simulation.


-- 
Stathis Papaioannou



From msd001 at gmail.com  Tue Jul  6 12:27:56 2010
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 08:27:56 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Belief in maths (was mind body dualism)
In-Reply-To: <348701.85627.qm@web114406.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.1030.1278386441.10820.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<348701.85627.qm@web114406.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinnmG8JEnpSlDmoABZhknPEgsxQxAvgAGmJwZzg@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 2:56 AM, Ben Zaiboc <bbenzai at yahoo.com> wrote:
> If I can assume that by 'pure maths', you mean logic, you seem to be saying that people who have absolute certainty (I'm making another assumption that this means "think that it's overwhelmingly likely") that there is no such thing as either a soul or psi, have come to this conclusion by logical reasoning, rather than, say, lack of evidence to the contrary.

I originally meant statistics and probability.  I have to include
logic because pure math is a broad category.  I have a difficult time
understanding absolute certainty no matter how it is reached.  You can
asymptotically approach certainty by way of reasoned arguments and
scientific methods.  I feel that even if you have seen a coin flip
result in heads 99 times in a row, you cannot state with absolute
certainty that the 100th toss will also be heads.  (at least until you
have shown both sides of the coin to be heads)  In the case of the no
soul or no psi argument, nobody is able to verify the other side of
the coin.  So we can observe many runs of the same result, but I don't
rule out the possibility that there may may eventually be an
unexpected result.

>
> Don't forget that 'no soul' and 'no psi' are the null hypotheses. ?Anyone who claims that either of these things exists needs to provide evidence or a ?convincing logical argument. ?Anyone who doesn't, doesn't. ?No logic (or maths) needed.
>

Agreed.  Claiming that either or both are Bullshit by lack of
existential evidence looks to me like a matter of personal belief (ie:
faith)   No logic needed.

> Or are you the type of person who, when told that there are no hypercubical golden dragons living underground on the far side of Titan, says "Ah, but you can't prove that, can you?!?!"

No.  I am the type of person who stores that statement relative to how
much I trust your ability to make truthful statements.  I remain
skeptical until I go underground on the far side of Titan.  Even after
finding no hypercubical golden dragons there, I reserve the
possibility that they may have only gone out for lunch while I was
visiting.



From bbenzai at yahoo.com  Tue Jul  6 12:51:05 2010
From: bbenzai at yahoo.com (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 05:51:05 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] [Wittrs] Re: The System Level Issue
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1278417604.15202.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <16657.46658.qm@web114406.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

Stathis Papaioannou <stathisp at gmail.com> credulously claimed:

> 
> On 6 July 2010 09:37, Gordon Swobe <gts_2000 at yahoo.com>
> wrote:
> 
> > Short of believing in some silly religion in which we
> all live as avatars in some glorified computer game, we must
> assume that the world exists before we make computations
> about it. It does not follow from the fact that we can
> compute process X that process X = a computation.
> 
> Even if we don't in fact live as avatars in a computer
> game, the point
> is that we could be. We wouldn't know. Moreover, if both
> are
> equivalent in content we would have no good reason to
> prefer being in
> reality to being in the simulation.


Stathis, what you fail to appreciate here is that a simulation /isn't real/.

Thoughts aren't patterns that can be reproduced in any suitable medium, so simulated thoughts can only be a thin shadow of the /real things/.  Thoughts are uh, well, let's not go there, ok?

So, according to this view, if we were in a simulation, we wouldn't know anything about it, because we wouldn't be real.  We wouldn't even exist.

Therefore, as we do exist, we cannot be in a simulation, because we are real, and simulations aren't. They're computations, and computations are, by their very nature, incapable of producing anything real.  

Well, they can produce real patterns, obviously, and really process real information, but that's irrelevant, because thinking is real. No, wait, I mean thinking is /not information processing/.  Yes, that's it.  So it can't be done in a simulation.  QED.  To think otherwise is to belong to a silly religion.  Do you want to belong to a silly religion? Do you?

Ben Zaiboc
(no, you can't persuade me otherwise, because I'm putting my real fingers in my real ears, and singing "LALALALALA" very loudly, with real soundwaves.  Over and over and over and over again. That's real repetition, by the way, not simulated repetition)



      




From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Tue Jul  6 14:08:31 2010
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 07:08:31 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The System Level Issue
Message-ID: <AANLkTil3qcQLYo-_l26msXPsoDTTGyReImlvjFXVnSAg@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 5:00 AM,  Stathis Papaioannou <stathisp at gmail.com> wrote:

> Even if we don't in fact live as avatars in a computer game, the point
> is that we could be. We wouldn't know. Moreover, if both are
> equivalent in content we would have no good reason to prefer being in
> reality to being in the simulation.

We might even prefer to be in a simulation.

Base reality may or may not permit time travel.  Whatever we are in
appears not to permit it.  A computer simulation that is check pointed
periodical (the state saved) could be restarted at a check point and
reentered at states corresponding to earlier times.

Keith


From dgreer_68 at hotmail.com  Tue Jul  6 15:10:19 2010
From: dgreer_68 at hotmail.com (darren shawn greer)
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 11:10:19 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Belief in maths (was mind body dualism)
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinnmG8JEnpSlDmoABZhknPEgsxQxAvgAGmJwZzg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1030.1278386441.10820.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>,
	<348701.85627.qm@web114406.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>,
	<AANLkTinnmG8JEnpSlDmoABZhknPEgsxQxAvgAGmJwZzg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <COL112-W3162C59433C84E22F208BC9DB20@phx.gbl>


> Even after finding no hypercubical golden dragons there, I reserve the possibility that they may have only gone out for lunch while I was visiting.<

 

I'm a newcomer to this list, but I had to ask this question: how long are you willing to wait before drawing a conclusion, based on belief in the absence of phyisical evidence, that the HGD either don't exist, or take extremely long lunches? Even if they do come back, logic could dictate to you that they are a hallucination or simulated by an advanced species that live on Alpha Centuri and like playing with the minds of humans who have the gall to visit Titan. Logic is great stuff, but eventually we must close off our logical processess with conclusions and shut out the endless possibilities that human logic offers. As some writer said once, keep too open a mind and nothing will stay in it.

 

If I'm intruding in the conversation, I apologize.

 

Darren




Per Ardua Ad Astra
For more info on author Darren Greer visit 
http://darrenshawngreer.blogspot.com



 

> Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 08:27:56 -0400
> From: msd001 at gmail.com
> To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> Subject: Re: [ExI] Belief in maths (was mind body dualism)
> 
> On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 2:56 AM, Ben Zaiboc <bbenzai at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > If I can assume that by 'pure maths', you mean logic, you seem to be saying that people who have absolute certainty (I'm making another assumption that this means "think that it's overwhelmingly likely") that there is no such thing as either a soul or psi, have come to this conclusion by logical reasoning, rather than, say, lack of evidence to the contrary.
> 
> I originally meant statistics and probability. I have to include
> logic because pure math is a broad category. I have a difficult time
> understanding absolute certainty no matter how it is reached. You can
> asymptotically approach certainty by way of reasoned arguments and
> scientific methods. I feel that even if you have seen a coin flip
> result in heads 99 times in a row, you cannot state with absolute
> certainty that the 100th toss will also be heads. (at least until you
> have shown both sides of the coin to be heads) In the case of the no
> soul or no psi argument, nobody is able to verify the other side of
> the coin. So we can observe many runs of the same result, but I don't
> rule out the possibility that there may may eventually be an
> unexpected result.
> 
> >
> > Don't forget that 'no soul' and 'no psi' are the null hypotheses.  Anyone who claims that either of these things exists needs to provide evidence or a  convincing logical argument.  Anyone who doesn't, doesn't.  No logic (or maths) needed.
> >
> 
> Agreed. Claiming that either or both are Bullshit by lack of
> existential evidence looks to me like a matter of personal belief (ie:
> faith) No logic needed.
> 
> > Or are you the type of person who, when told that there are no hypercubical golden dragons living underground on the far side of Titan, says "Ah, but you can't prove that, can you?!?!"
> 
> No. I am the type of person who stores that statement relative to how
> much I trust your ability to make truthful statements. I remain
> skeptical until I go underground on the far side of Titan. Even after
> finding no hypercubical golden dragons there, I reserve the
> possibility that they may have only gone out for lunch while I was
> visiting.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
 		 	   		  
_________________________________________________________________
MSN Dating: Find someone special. Start now.
http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9734384
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100706/fc7fc532/attachment.html>

From msd001 at gmail.com  Wed Jul  7 01:34:07 2010
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 21:34:07 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Belief in maths (was mind body dualism)
In-Reply-To: <COL112-W3162C59433C84E22F208BC9DB20@phx.gbl>
References: <mailman.1030.1278386441.10820.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<348701.85627.qm@web114406.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<AANLkTinnmG8JEnpSlDmoABZhknPEgsxQxAvgAGmJwZzg@mail.gmail.com>
	<COL112-W3162C59433C84E22F208BC9DB20@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <AANLkTik8FEaXOQNL6KqXNQsMsqFb_Ccu7sV_17fbgWx9@mail.gmail.com>

2010/7/6 darren shawn greer <dgreer_68 at hotmail.com>

>  > Even after finding no hypercubical golden dragons there, I reserve the
> possibility that they may have only gone out for lunch while I was
> visiting.<
>
> I'm a newcomer to this list, but I had to ask this question: how long are
> you willing to wait before drawing a conclusion, based on belief in the
> absence of phyisical evidence, that the HGD either don't exist, or take
> extremely long lunches? Even if they do come back, logic could dictate to
> you that they are a hallucination or simulated by an advanced species that
> live on Alpha Centuri and like playing with the minds of humans who have
> the gall to visit Titan. Logic is great stuff, but eventually we must close
> off our logical processess with conclusions and shut out the
> endless possibilities that human logic offers. As some writer said once,
> keep too open a mind and nothing will stay in it.
>
> If I'm intruding in the conversation, I apologize.
>

You cannot intrude on a public conversation with topical and even insightful
additions; welcome.

Yes, I considered the absurdity of maintaining too open a mind such that
nothing can be accomplished because no conclusion can be drawn.

I am a software developer during the day.  Most of my time is spent
anticipating the extremely unlikely cases and making sure the program does
not encounter those conditions.  If I defend against 99% of the truly absurd
cases of should-never-happen inputs, my boss (or QC, etc.) will surely try
something from the 1% that I did not imagine.  Most code can be broken
(whether cryptographic or procedural)  I can't be sure enough to say that
all code can be broken - because that supposes that I have the time/patience
to prove that to be true.  I dare not say one example of code is unbreakable
(the exception to the previous statement) because I am unable to guarantee
or warrant that assertion.

Is it tedious to always assert that my conclusion is within a good-enough
confidence that a principle holds for a majority of observations such that a
sufficiently useful model can likely predict future scenarios?  Yes.  I
imagine John Clark's shoot-from-the-hip style addresses this point
matter-of-factly.  ( something like, "Mike D. is just being pedantic over
word choice, I don't care to mince words with such a weaselly character"
:)   For the record I enjoy John's point of view (most of the time) and
respect the fact that verbal fencing is rarely taken personally.

So Darren, I think the answer to your question is that I'm not willing to
wait very long.  As I said to Ben, I would accept his assertion regarding
dragons to the degree that he has previously proven to be reliable on
similar assertions.  Given what I already know regarding the general
whereabouts of dragons, the reliability of his statement is further
modified.  I may be sure enough that there are no dragons on the far side of
Titan to go there, but I'm certainly not going to disbelieve direct
experience in deference to the opinion of someone else.

btw, I know early cartographers frequently identified "there be dragons
here" at the embarrasingly vacant edges of maps.  So I surmise that dragons
are usually found in and around uncharted regions.  Once we've fully
explored the underground on the far side of Titan, I'll be relatively secure
there are in fact no dragons there.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100706/b0835e19/attachment.html>

From sjatkins at mac.com  Wed Jul  7 01:37:28 2010
From: sjatkins at mac.com (samantha)
Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2010 18:37:28 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The System Level Issue
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTil3qcQLYo-_l26msXPsoDTTGyReImlvjFXVnSAg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTil3qcQLYo-_l26msXPsoDTTGyReImlvjFXVnSAg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4C33DA58.5010204@mac.com>

Keith Henson wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 5:00 AM,  Stathis Papaioannou <stathisp at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>   
>> Even if we don't in fact live as avatars in a computer game, the point
>> is that we could be. We wouldn't know. Moreover, if both are
>> equivalent in content we would have no good reason to prefer being in
>> reality to being in the simulation.
>>     
>
> We might even prefer to be in a simulation.
>
> Base reality may or may not permit time travel.  Whatever we are in
> appears not to permit it.  A computer simulation that is check pointed
> periodical (the state saved) could be restarted at a check point and
> reentered at states corresponding to earlier times.
>
>   
Hmm?  Assuming continuous simulation you can't move your state to a past 
time that the underlying computing substrate ran in its past and is not 
running now.  Ditto for the future.  But you might be able to teleport 
if you could persuade that which simulates or is in control of the 
simulation to move you to a different part of the currently running 
universe. 

- s

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100706/bbc5a971/attachment.html>

From sjatkins at mac.com  Wed Jul  7 01:48:37 2010
From: sjatkins at mac.com (samantha)
Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2010 18:48:37 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Belief in maths (was mind body dualism)
In-Reply-To: <COL112-W3162C59433C84E22F208BC9DB20@phx.gbl>
References: <mailman.1030.1278386441.10820.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<348701.85627.qm@web114406.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<AANLkTinnmG8JEnpSlDmoABZhknPEgsxQxAvgAGmJwZzg@mail.gmail.com>
	<COL112-W3162C59433C84E22F208BC9DB20@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <4C33DCF5.3010607@mac.com>

darren shawn greer wrote:
> > Even after finding no hypercubical golden dragons there, I reserve 
> the possibility that they may have only gone out for lunch while I was 
> visiting.<
>  
> I'm a newcomer to this list, but I had to ask this question: how long 
> are you willing to wait before drawing a conclusion, based on belief 
> in the absence of phyisical evidence, that the HGD either don't exist, 
> or take extremely long lunches? Even if they do come back, logic could 
> dictate to you that they are a hallucination or simulated by an 
> advanced species that live on Alpha Centuri and like playing with the 
> minds of humans who have the gall to visit Titan. Logic is great 
> stuff, but eventually we must close off our logical processess with 
> conclusions and shut out the endless possibilities that human logic 
> offers. As some writer said once, keep too open a mind and nothing 
> will stay in it.
>  
> If I'm intruding in the conversation, I apologize.
>  
> Darren
>
>
>
> *Per Ardua Ad Astra*
> *For more info on author Darren Greer **visit *
> *http://darrenshawngreer.blogspot.com 
> <http://darrenshawngreer.blogspot.com/>*
>
>
>
>  
> > Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 08:27:56 -0400
> > From: msd001 at gmail.com
> > To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > Subject: Re: [ExI] Belief in maths (was mind body dualism)
> >
> > On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 2:56 AM, Ben Zaiboc <bbenzai at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > If I can assume that by 'pure maths', you mean logic, you seem to 
> be saying that people who have absolute certainty (I'm making another 
> assumption that this means "think that it's overwhelmingly likely") 
> that there is no such thing as either a soul or psi, have come to this 
> conclusion by logical reasoning, rather than, say, lack of evidence to 
> the contrary.

Lack of evidence is a perfectly fine reason to not think something is 
so.  If it also has logical inconsistency problems and/or has no 
explanatory theory that is sufficiently sound then that is more reason 
to disbelief it.
> >
> > I originally meant statistics and probability. I have to include
> > logic because pure math is a broad category. I have a difficult time
> > understanding absolute certainty no matter how it is reached.

Everyone gets hung up over "absolute".   If I step off a cliff on earth 
with no invisible means of support am I absolutely certain I will fall?  
You bet!  Or so sure of the very high probability I would not waste a 
millisecond considering alternatives.

> You can
> > asymptotically approach certainty by way of reasoned arguments and
> > scientific methods. I feel that even if you have seen a coin flip
> > result in heads 99 times in a row, you cannot state with absolute
> > certainty that the 100th toss will also be heads.

I would say with fairly high certainty that the coin or the toss is rigged.

> (at least until you
> > have shown both sides of the coin to be heads) In the case of the no
> > soul or no psi argument, nobody is able to verify the other side of
> > the coin.
Nope.  Asserting that X exist is not the same at all as flipping what is 
supposed to be a two-sided fair coin.  False analogy.

> So we can observe many runs of the same result, but I don't
> > rule out the possibility that there may may eventually be an
> > unexpected result.

Poor logic if reasoning from the above analogy.
> >
> > >
> > > Don't forget that 'no soul' and 'no psi' are the null hypotheses. 
>  Anyone who claims that either of these things exists needs to provide 
> evidence or a  convincing logical argument.  Anyone who doesn't, 
> doesn't.  No logic (or maths) needed.
> > >
Yep.
> >
> > Agreed. Claiming that either or both are Bullshit by lack of
> > existential evidence looks to me like a matter of personal belief (ie:
> > faith) No logic needed.
> >
It has nothing at all to do with personal belief or faith.  It is simple 
reasoning that there is not sufficient reason to believe these things 
are the case.   So not believing them is the only rational course for 
now.  

> > > Or are you the type of person who, when told that there are no 
> hypercubical golden dragons living underground on the far side of 
> Titan, says "Ah, but you can't prove that, can you?!?!"
> >
> > No. I am the type of person who stores that statement relative to how
> > much I trust your ability to make truthful statements. I remain
> > skeptical until I go underground on the far side of Titan. Even after
> > finding no hypercubical golden dragons there, I reserve the
> > possibility that they may have only gone out for lunch while I was
> > visiting.
> >
What, you wait till you can take a physical trip yourself rather than 
claim maker to provide evidence?   In the meantime you do not believe 
this, right?  Is this a matter of mere faith or of applied rationality?

- samantha

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100706/c187e758/attachment.html>

From stathisp at gmail.com  Wed Jul  7 02:10:26 2010
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2010 12:10:26 +1000
Subject: [ExI] The System Level Issue
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTil3qcQLYo-_l26msXPsoDTTGyReImlvjFXVnSAg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTil3qcQLYo-_l26msXPsoDTTGyReImlvjFXVnSAg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTiml83hMi1PRdiA0RR9GlX6UuTFoDkFbaZ5jIPY5@mail.gmail.com>

On 7 July 2010 00:08, Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> wrote:

> Base reality may or may not permit time travel. ?Whatever we are in
> appears not to permit it. ?A computer simulation that is check pointed
> periodical (the state saved) could be restarted at a check point and
> reentered at states corresponding to earlier times.

That wouldn't be much fun though, since you won't be able to remember
the future as remembering the future was not part of the simulation
when run the first time.


-- 
Stathis Papaioannou



From msd001 at gmail.com  Wed Jul  7 02:30:11 2010
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 22:30:11 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Belief in maths (was mind body dualism)
In-Reply-To: <4C33DCF5.3010607@mac.com>
References: <mailman.1030.1278386441.10820.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<348701.85627.qm@web114406.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<AANLkTinnmG8JEnpSlDmoABZhknPEgsxQxAvgAGmJwZzg@mail.gmail.com>
	<COL112-W3162C59433C84E22F208BC9DB20@phx.gbl>
	<4C33DCF5.3010607@mac.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTiky-YdwbZC6x688FCjTDuYBRCn006EVQ9ctUhnc@mail.gmail.com>

2010/7/6 samantha <sjatkins at mac.com>

> What, you wait till you can take a physical trip yourself rather than claim
> maker to provide evidence?   In the meantime you do not believe this,
> right?  Is this a matter of mere faith or of applied rationality?
>
>
Apparently I have very little power to express a simple idea.  My original
assertion is that certainty that something does not exist based on the fact
that it has not been proven to exist is unfounded.  I agree that gravity has
reliably proven to explain falling at every occurrence.  I suggested the 99
throws of heads being suspicious because we're already familiar with the 1/2
probability of outcome on a fair coin.  Without a-priori knowledge of this
distribution, how do we determine whether the coin is fair or not based on
the only 99 observations being heads?  A model of coin flipping "yields
heads" was reinforced 96 times after the first 3 observations.  From that
model, there seems to be a consensus that "yields tales" is so absurd that
it should be discounted and those to posit any outcome other than heads is a
heretic.

In the example of dragons on Titan I suggest that Ben's opinion may be
informed by heresy, informed by experience and observation or informed by
speculation on universal dragon distribution.  Regardless, I accept the
truth of his statement with some modifier based on my trust in Ben:  is he
selling vacation packages to Titan?  Has he repeatedly tried to kill me by
asserting things such as 'there are no Lions in the Serengeti'?  Is he an
expert on dragons or on Titan?  These factors are considered when assessing
whether or not I should act upon the statement regarding dragons on Titan.
This conversation started regarding the existence of psi and our ability to
detect psi (or not) from statistical noise.  I posit that there are enough
opinions suggesting that it does exist to counter the opinions suggesting
that it does not exist that I will remain skeptical and reserve judgment.  I
feel like standing on either side of uncertainty requires a conviction that
I do not possess.

Comparing the [non-]existence of psi with either gravity or dragons seems to
have taken the analogy too far.

You called my coin-flip example a false analogy.  Maybe I did a better job
above.  Otherwise I must withdraw that example.  Hopefully the second
paragraph of this post was clear enough.

re: mere faith or applied rationality.  How does one know they have applied
rationality?  All wordplay aside, what method does one use to verify the
integrity of their own rationality?  If rationality is flawed, would the
rationality checker also be flawed?  To the extent that I believe myself to
be rational, I assert that I am so.  To the extent that we are in agreement
regarding my rationality, does this shared position certify rationality or
belief?
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100706/cbcd16ae/attachment.html>

From spike66 at att.net  Wed Jul  7 02:25:58 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 19:25:58 -0700
Subject: [ExI] medical marijuana
Message-ID: <3674DAB8B4C44232AD1E8CEAD6949F08@spike>

Taxifornia is on the verge of legalizing marijuana, and hoping to tax it to
try to dig out of its current budget abyss.  These days there is something
about in the news nearly every day.  I always hear about new medications
needing hundreds of millions of dollars worth of clinical testing to verify
that any new medication is safe and effective before it gets FDA approval.
So why wouldn't that apply here?  Is this a special case?  Or is it just
being legalized without FDA approval, state only and not the fed, and if so,
why couldn't you do the same trick with any experimental medication?  A
pharma company could make plenty of money selling a medication in Taxifornia
only, and Taxifornia will allow *anything* at this point if there is tax
revenue to be collected.  This state has 30 million willing and eager proles
on which to experiment.  
 
If any medication really is effective, such as pot or viagra, all we really
need to do is bring it to Taxifornia and get out of its way.
 
spike
 
 
 
 
 
 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100706/dd755dfb/attachment.html>

From ryanobjc at gmail.com  Wed Jul  7 03:12:50 2010
From: ryanobjc at gmail.com (Ryan Rawson)
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 20:12:50 -0700
Subject: [ExI] medical marijuana
In-Reply-To: <3674DAB8B4C44232AD1E8CEAD6949F08@spike>
References: <3674DAB8B4C44232AD1E8CEAD6949F08@spike>
Message-ID: <AANLkTin-sZcVn1JEafZczCY36nOTMXIrZBHWy4rynBEM@mail.gmail.com>

You are kind of conflating 2 things here (along with insulting those
of us who are California residents with your pithy and lame nickname):

- The current proposal which will legalize and regulate Cannabis
similarly to alcohol
- Medical Cannabis has been legal for 15 years

In any case, Cannabis has centuries or millenium of use (along with
alcohol, etc) and demonstrated it's human safety.

-ryan

2010/7/6 spike <spike66 at att.net>:
> Taxifornia is on the verge of legalizing marijuana, and hoping to tax it to
> try to dig out of its current budget abyss.? These days there is something
> about?in the news nearly every day.??I always hear about new medications
> needing hundreds of millions of dollars worth of clinical testing to verify
> that?any new medication?is safe and effective before it gets FDA approval.
> So why wouldn't that apply here?? Is this a special case?? Or is it just
> being legalized without FDA approval, state only and not the fed, and if
> so,?why couldn't you do the same trick with any experimental medication?? A
> pharma company could make plenty of money selling a medication in Taxifornia
> only, and Taxifornia will allow *anything* at this point if there is tax
> revenue to be collected.? This state has 30 million willing and eager proles
> on which to experiment.
>
> If any medication?really is effective, such as pot or viagra, all we really
> need to do is bring it to Taxifornia and get out of its way.
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>



From dgreer_68 at hotmail.com  Wed Jul  7 02:47:02 2010
From: dgreer_68 at hotmail.com (darren shawn greer)
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 22:47:02 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Belief in maths (was mind body dualism)
In-Reply-To: <4C33DCF5.3010607@mac.com>
References: <mailman.1030.1278386441.10820.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>,
	<348701.85627.qm@web114406.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>,
	<AANLkTinnmG8JEnpSlDmoABZhknPEgsxQxAvgAGmJwZzg@mail.gmail.com>,
	<COL112-W3162C59433C84E22F208BC9DB20@phx.gbl>,
	<4C33DCF5.3010607@mac.com>
Message-ID: <COL112-W37769A3E3F02ED45A43D3A9DB30@phx.gbl>


>Lack of evidence is a perfectly fine reason to not think something is so.  If it also has logical inconsistency problems and/or has no explanatory theory that is sufficiently sound then that is more reason to disbelief it.<



It is such an important discussion, for secular humanists and religious humanists are constantly having this argument. "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" and "It most certainly is!" I think every person has to make this decision for themselves, given the current social and cultural milieu many of us live in. A friend of mine says that in order for societies to move beyond the anthropocentric humanist view and the rampant and often exclusionary and violent individualism that has fueled history to this point, we have to ingest a certain amount of nihilism. I believe him to be right, and nowhere is this more evident (to me at least) than in the creator/no creator debate. By nihilism I think he means not a rejection of old ideas but rejection of the tendency of human beings towards polarizing argument over meaning and morality. A rejection of supreme objectivity, a move towards relative belief and relative morality, a sense of play in closed systems, an understanding that any conclusions that we do draw, and any beliefs that we do have, is simply a need to close off possibilities in order to comfort ourselves, accomplish something practical, or stay sane.

 

I've recently thought that, at the same time as post humanism and trans humanism celebrate the untapped potential of human beings and our technology, in order for it to really happen it is just as important to consider our limitations in the face of our inability to unify every aspect of the universe with theory. I gave up on theoretical physics because I believed it was an asymptotic process with a scientific method that didn?t recognize this. The near infinite and practical results of applied math and physics and chemistry within a closed system are likely to yield as many wonders in the future as did twentieth century physics (and already are.) Information-management, the various types of engineering, bio-technology, system integration, programming are all finite but unbounded systems with practically unlimited potential, but none of the counter-intuitive quantum-foam type problems of theoretical physics to fetch up the train. This is not an argument to abandon pure sciences, you understand. It is simply a belief that argument over meaning, or search for meaning, or even an attempt to uncover the grand secrets that lie at the heart of the universe will be far less important in the future than they are today. And there is a certain amount of freedom, intellectual and spiritual, in admitting that something, at the present time or perhaps forever, is unknowable. Or that you are, at present, just not smart enough to figure it out. It is a kind of growing up, and would, in my opinion and very ironically, be the first major step of the human race towards accepting a post-human existence.

 

How in the hell did I get on this from Hypercubical Golden Dragons on the underside of Titan?

 
 

Per Ardua Ad Astra
For more info on author Darren Greer visit 
http://darrenshawngreer.blogspot.com



 



Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 18:48:37 -0700
From: sjatkins at mac.com
To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
Subject: Re: [ExI] Belief in maths (was mind body dualism)

darren shawn greer wrote: 


> Even after finding no hypercubical golden dragons there, I reserve the possibility that they may have only gone out for lunch while I was visiting.<
 
I'm a newcomer to this list, but I had to ask this question: how long are you willing to wait before drawing a conclusion, based on belief in the absence of phyisical evidence, that the HGD either don't exist, or take extremely long lunches? Even if they do come back, logic could dictate to you that they are a hallucination or simulated by an advanced species that live on Alpha Centuri and like playing with the minds of humans who have the gall to visit Titan. Logic is great stuff, but eventually we must close off our logical processess with conclusions and shut out the endless possibilities that human logic offers. As some writer said once, keep too open a mind and nothing will stay in it.
 
If I'm intruding in the conversation, I apologize.
 
Darren




Per Ardua Ad Astra
For more info on author Darren Greer visit 
http://darrenshawngreer.blogspot.com



  
> Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 08:27:56 -0400
> From: msd001 at gmail.com
> To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> Subject: Re: [ExI] Belief in maths (was mind body dualism)
> 
> On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 2:56 AM, Ben Zaiboc <bbenzai at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > If I can assume that by 'pure maths', you mean logic, you seem to be saying that people who have absolute certainty (I'm making another assumption that this means "think that it's overwhelmingly likely") that there is no such thing as either a soul or psi, have come to this conclusion by logical reasoning, rather than, say, lack of evidence to the contrary.

Lack of evidence is a perfectly fine reason to not think something is so.  If it also has logical inconsistency problems and/or has no explanatory theory that is sufficiently sound then that is more reason to disbelief it. 

> 
> I originally meant statistics and probability. I have to include
> logic because pure math is a broad category. I have a difficult time
> understanding absolute certainty no matter how it is reached.
Everyone gets hung up over "absolute".   If I step off a cliff on earth with no invisible means of support am I absolutely certain I will fall?  You bet!  Or so sure of the very high probability I would not waste a millisecond considering alternatives.


You can
> asymptotically approach certainty by way of reasoned arguments and
> scientific methods. I feel that even if you have seen a coin flip
> result in heads 99 times in a row, you cannot state with absolute
> certainty that the 100th toss will also be heads.
I would say with fairly high certainty that the coin or the toss is rigged. 


(at least until you
> have shown both sides of the coin to be heads) In the case of the no
> soul or no psi argument, nobody is able to verify the other side of
> the coin.Nope.  Asserting that X exist is not the same at all as flipping what is supposed to be a two-sided fair coin.  False analogy.


So we can observe many runs of the same result, but I don't
> rule out the possibility that there may may eventually be an
> unexpected result.

Poor logic if reasoning from the above analogy.

> 
> >
> > Don't forget that 'no soul' and 'no psi' are the null hypotheses.  Anyone who claims that either of these things exists needs to provide evidence or a  convincing logical argument.  Anyone who doesn't, doesn't.  No logic (or maths) needed.
> >
Yep.

> 
> Agreed. Claiming that either or both are Bullshit by lack of
> existential evidence looks to me like a matter of personal belief (ie:
> faith) No logic needed.
> 
It has nothing at all to do with personal belief or faith.  It is simple reasoning that there is not sufficient reason to believe these things are the case.   So not believing them is the only rational course for now.   


> > Or are you the type of person who, when told that there are no hypercubical golden dragons living underground on the far side of Titan, says "Ah, but you can't prove that, can you?!?!"
> 
> No. I am the type of person who stores that statement relative to how
> much I trust your ability to make truthful statements. I remain
> skeptical until I go underground on the far side of Titan. Even after
> finding no hypercubical golden dragons there, I reserve the
> possibility that they may have only gone out for lunch while I was
> visiting.
> 
What, you wait till you can take a physical trip yourself rather than claim maker to provide evidence?   In the meantime you do not believe this, right?  Is this a matter of mere faith or of applied rationality?

- samantha

 		 	   		  
_________________________________________________________________
Learn more ways to connect with your buddies now
http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9734388
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100706/60cf9f40/attachment.html>

From pharos at gmail.com  Wed Jul  7 05:43:37 2010
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2010 06:43:37 +0100
Subject: [ExI] medical marijuana
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTin-sZcVn1JEafZczCY36nOTMXIrZBHWy4rynBEM@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3674DAB8B4C44232AD1E8CEAD6949F08@spike>
	<AANLkTin-sZcVn1JEafZczCY36nOTMXIrZBHWy4rynBEM@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimZwRzifg8bj9HHF06bZ_yci9-LBRRxn5NwX2k4@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/7/10, Ryan Rawson wrote:
> You are kind of conflating 2 things here (along with insulting those
>  of us who are California residents with your pithy and lame nickname):
>
>  - The current proposal which will legalize and regulate Cannabis
>  similarly to alcohol
>  - Medical Cannabis has been legal for 15 years
>
>  In any case, Cannabis has centuries or millenium of use (along with
>  alcohol, etc) and demonstrated it's human safety.
>
>

Quote from DEA:
There are no FDA-approved medications that are smoked. For one thing,
smoking is generally a poor way to deliver medicine. It is difficult
to administer safe, regulated dosages of medicines in smoked form.
Secondly, the harmful chemicals and carcinogens that are byproducts of
smoking create entirely new health problems. There are four times the
level of tar in a marijuana cigarette, for example, than in a tobacco
cigarette.

Morphine, for example, has proven to be a medically valuable drug, but
the FDA does not endorse the smoking of opium or heroin. Instead,
scientists have extracted active ingredients from opium, which are
sold as pharmaceutical products like morphine, codeine, hydrocodone or
oxycodone.
------------------


The FDA and big pharma want to extract the active ingredients from
cannabis and make products that can first be tested, then marketed
through the medical profession. Wikipedia claims that while the FDA
has not approved marijuana it has approved THC (a compound found in
cannabis) as an active ingredient for medicinal use.

Legalizing possession of small quantities of cannabis for registered
medical use by seriously ill people as authorised by a doctor is
hardly likely to produce much tax income for the states or stop many
ordinary people being jailed for possession.


BillK


From pharos at gmail.com  Wed Jul  7 06:42:17 2010
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2010 07:42:17 +0100
Subject: [ExI] medical marijuana
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimZwRzifg8bj9HHF06bZ_yci9-LBRRxn5NwX2k4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3674DAB8B4C44232AD1E8CEAD6949F08@spike>
	<AANLkTin-sZcVn1JEafZczCY36nOTMXIrZBHWy4rynBEM@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimZwRzifg8bj9HHF06bZ_yci9-LBRRxn5NwX2k4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinJkxYa2sncdSY960Nk8gV542KGqEhPpkwErEWM@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/7/10, BillK  wrote:
>  Legalizing possession of small quantities of cannabis for registered
>  medical use by seriously ill people as authorised by a doctor is
>  hardly likely to produce much tax income for the states or stop many
>  ordinary people being jailed for possession.
>
>


Proposition 19 though, I see, allows for much more widespread use,
similar to the alcohol licensing laws. Current polls indicate that it
might well get more than the 50% vote required in Nov 2010.

They anticipate over a billion of extra revenue. But I don't see any
estimates for the additional costs incurred along the lines of
repairing the damage that alcohol causes.

One interesting point is that cannabis would still be illegal under
federal laws. So any big businesses would be likely to be raided by
the Feds to take the assets for their benefit and imprison the
employees.


BillK


From spike66 at att.net  Wed Jul  7 06:27:41 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 23:27:41 -0700
Subject: [ExI] (no subject)
Message-ID: <CA8739234B2D401E896AAF84E1930A0D@spike>




...
	
	On 7/7/10, Ryan Rawson wrote:

Hi Ryan, welcome. {8-] Do introduce yourself.  I haven't seen your posts
before. 

	> You are kind of conflating 2 things here (along with insulting
those
	>  of us who are California residents with your pithy and lame
nickname)...

Ja, but we will get over it.  I didn't feel insulted by my pithy and lame
nickname and I have been a Taxifornia resident for over half my life.  The
taxes have been way too high here the whole time.  We pay and pay, yet it
never seems to be enough for our voracious state government.  Perhaps it is
because it uses the money to jail people for merely possessing a weed.

	
>	Quote from DEA:
	...There are four times the
	level of tar in a marijuana cigarette, for example, than in a
tobacco
	cigarette...

Sure but the dope smokers burn way fewer "reefers" than the tobacco guys,
ja?

...
	------------------
	
	> The FDA and big pharma want to extract the active ingredients from
	cannabis and make products that can first be tested, then marketed
	through the medical profession...

I know they do, and I don't like it.  I am not a smoker of "doobies" myself,
but it feels to me like the government should keep its grubby paws off those
who do.  Yes I know it is harder to control the dosage and yakity yak and
bla bla, but the importand point is that a plant is cheap, whereas doctors
and medicines are expensive, keeping it from poor people who need it.  They
should be allowed to smoke their grass.  Then let the rich people swallow a
sterile pill.  

	> Legalizing possession of small quantities of cannabis for
registered
	medical use by seriously ill people as authorised by a doctor is
	hardly likely to produce much tax income for the states...

BillK I wish I had your optimism.  They will figure out some way to tax it
so that the legal stuff will be cost competitive with the illegal.  I don't
like the notion that a medic must declare a patient seriously ill either.
Poor people can't afford doctors, but they still need medicines.  Damn this
system.  Our recent legal conniption didn't fix it.

 	>or stop many ordinary people being jailed for possession... BillK

Ja I hope so.  Then I guess they will let them go if they are in the tank
for only possession of reefers.  That will save some money.

spike
	_______________________________________________
	



From rpicone at gmail.com  Wed Jul  7 06:57:17 2010
From: rpicone at gmail.com (Robert Picone)
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 23:57:17 -0700
Subject: [ExI] medical marijuana
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinADdw_wdc25cTLf_vwfeNJZjUkgx8_X6fYqdFM@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3674DAB8B4C44232AD1E8CEAD6949F08@spike>
	<AANLkTin-sZcVn1JEafZczCY36nOTMXIrZBHWy4rynBEM@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimZwRzifg8bj9HHF06bZ_yci9-LBRRxn5NwX2k4@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinJkxYa2sncdSY960Nk8gV542KGqEhPpkwErEWM@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinADdw_wdc25cTLf_vwfeNJZjUkgx8_X6fYqdFM@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinypSiXDz_5Y83683qTJFjvYe5JTRFBdBc5PmAz@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 11:42 PM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 7/7/10, BillK  wrote:
>> >  Legalizing possession of small quantities of cannabis for registered
>> >  medical use by seriously ill people as authorised by a doctor is
>> >  hardly likely to produce much tax income for the states or stop many
>> >  ordinary people being jailed for possession.
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>> Proposition 19 though, I see, allows for much more widespread use,
>> similar to the alcohol licensing laws. Current polls indicate that it
>> might well get more than the 50% vote required in Nov 2010.
>>
>> They anticipate over a billion of extra revenue. But I don't see any
>> estimates for the additional costs incurred along the lines of
>> repairing the damage that alcohol causes.
>>
>>
It seems rather unlikely that there would be significant additional costs.
 DUIs are already policed rather heavily, and there are plenty of other
programs suited towards those goals, though language might have to be
rewritten a bit.

Anyway, so far the evidence shows that when areas have legalized usage,
there hasn't been any significant increase in local use, and any kid will
tell you it's easier for them to get weed right now than alcohol.  So I'm
not sure I see the logic behind the the idea.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100706/4fc6f4f2/attachment.html>

From rpicone at gmail.com  Wed Jul  7 06:47:33 2010
From: rpicone at gmail.com (Robert Picone)
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 23:47:33 -0700
Subject: [ExI] medical marijuana
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinJkxYa2sncdSY960Nk8gV542KGqEhPpkwErEWM@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3674DAB8B4C44232AD1E8CEAD6949F08@spike>
	<AANLkTin-sZcVn1JEafZczCY36nOTMXIrZBHWy4rynBEM@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimZwRzifg8bj9HHF06bZ_yci9-LBRRxn5NwX2k4@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinJkxYa2sncdSY960Nk8gV542KGqEhPpkwErEWM@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinADdw_wdc25cTLf_vwfeNJZjUkgx8_X6fYqdFM@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 11:42 PM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:

> On 7/7/10, BillK  wrote:
> >  Legalizing possession of small quantities of cannabis for registered
> >  medical use by seriously ill people as authorised by a doctor is
> >  hardly likely to produce much tax income for the states or stop many
> >  ordinary people being jailed for possession.
> >
> >
>
>
> Proposition 19 though, I see, allows for much more widespread use,
> similar to the alcohol licensing laws. Current polls indicate that it
> might well get more than the 50% vote required in Nov 2010.
>
> They anticipate over a billion of extra revenue. But I don't see any
> estimates for the additional costs incurred along the lines of
> repairing the damage that alcohol causes.
>
> One interesting point is that cannabis would still be illegal under
> federal laws. So any big businesses would be likely to be raided by
> the Feds to take the assets for their benefit and imprison the
> employees.
>
>
> BillK
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100706/67d602f4/attachment.html>

From wingcat at pacbell.net  Wed Jul  7 06:58:45 2010
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 23:58:45 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Belief in maths (was mind body dualism)
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTik8FEaXOQNL6KqXNQsMsqFb_Ccu7sV_17fbgWx9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <755441.29241.qm@web81607.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Welcome to the conversation.

--- On Tue, 7/6/10, Mike Dougherty <msd001 at gmail.com> wrote:
I am a software developer during the day.? Most of my time is spent anticipating the extremely unlikely cases and making sure the program does not encounter those conditions.? If I defend against 99% of the truly absurd cases of should-never-happen inputs, my boss (or QC, etc.) will surely try something from the 1% that I did not imagine.? Most code can be broken (whether cryptographic or procedural)? I can't be sure enough to say that all code can be broken - because that supposes that I have the time/patience to prove that to be true.? I dare not say one example of code is unbreakable (the exception to the previous statement) because I am unable to guarantee or warrant that assertion.? 
Actually, it is possible to completely prove the functionality of small pieces of
code, given certain assumptions.? For instance, assuming the following is run
via a standard Perl interpreter in the normal sense (with a stdout, et al), the
following code will always output the string "2" followed by a newline:
---
my $foo = 1;
$foo = $foo + 1;
print $foo . "\n";
---
The trick is, how far can one go with this, while still being economical about
the effort involved?? NASA's coding procedures - and the astronomical costs
involved - are a good example of what happens when one tries to apply this
to very complex programs.? (And even that sometimes fails, though for lack
of communication and strict adherence to model instead of for theoretical
break in the model itself.)

What you're used to is the standard heuristic, where less than complete
proof is accepted because it would simply cost far too much to do said
complete proof.? ("Cost" not just in money, but also in commitment and
effort that the stakeholders often refuse to put forth.? How often have you
been given vague requirements, where the giver refused to write them
down into something formal that you could prove whether or not you've
met?)
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100706/e186a2bc/attachment.html>

From pharos at gmail.com  Wed Jul  7 07:27:07 2010
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2010 08:27:07 +0100
Subject: [ExI] medical marijuana
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinypSiXDz_5Y83683qTJFjvYe5JTRFBdBc5PmAz@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3674DAB8B4C44232AD1E8CEAD6949F08@spike>
	<AANLkTin-sZcVn1JEafZczCY36nOTMXIrZBHWy4rynBEM@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimZwRzifg8bj9HHF06bZ_yci9-LBRRxn5NwX2k4@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinJkxYa2sncdSY960Nk8gV542KGqEhPpkwErEWM@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinADdw_wdc25cTLf_vwfeNJZjUkgx8_X6fYqdFM@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinypSiXDz_5Y83683qTJFjvYe5JTRFBdBc5PmAz@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikuWTvQWYEt_S0LDAU-CItkrXT0RI2tlfIouKWM@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/7/10, Robert Picone wrote:
> It seems rather unlikely that there would be significant additional costs.
> DUIs are already policed rather heavily, and there are plenty of other
> programs suited towards those goals, though language might have to be
> rewritten a bit.
>
> Anyway, so far the evidence shows that when areas have legalized usage,
> there hasn't been any significant increase in local use, and any kid will
> tell you it's easier for them to get weed right now than alcohol.  So I'm
> not sure I see the logic behind the the idea.
>


DUIs are only part of the problem of alcohol abuse.
Quote: There are over 20,000 alcohol-induced deaths in the United
States each year, not including motor vehicle fatalities.

See:
<http://alcoholism.about.com/od/cost/The_Costs_of_Alcohol_Abuse.htm>

Once cannabis becomes as widely abused as alcohol I would expect a
similar level of damage to society. There are always unanticipated
effects to major law changes such as this.


BillK


From bbenzai at yahoo.com  Wed Jul  7 07:54:39 2010
From: bbenzai at yahoo.com (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2010 00:54:39 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Belief in maths
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1047.1278477872.10820.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <194461.92533.qm@web114406.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

Mike Dougherty <msd001 at gmail.com> wrote:

> I posit that there are enough opinions suggesting 
> that it does exist to counter the
> opinions suggesting that it does not exist that 
> I will remain skeptical and reserve judgment.

Personally, I don't think it makes sense to weigh number or strength of opinions when trying to decide how likely something is, especially if it's an unusual something, and most especially if it's something that people are likely to have an emotional investment in.

But that's just my opinion.  You probably shouldn't count it or anything.


> Comparing the [non-]existence of psi with either gravity or
> dragons seems to
> have taken the analogy too far.


Well, the reference to gravity was just to illustrate a point about 'certainty'.  (Which relates to something I said earlier, about the meanings of words.  When Samantha says she's certain about the results of stepping off a cliff...

No, let me rephrase that. I can't speak for Samantha.

When I say I'm certain about the results of stepping off a cliff, I mean something different to what a victim of religion means when they say they're certain of god's love (or vengeance, or whatever).  The word "certain" has a different meaning.)

Dragons, however, seem to me to have roughly the same likelihood as psi.  At least, I'd be just as surprised if one was shown to exist as the other (well, actually it would depend on what kind of dragon.  I can think of some that are pretty plausible).

Ben Zaiboc


      




From bbenzai at yahoo.com  Wed Jul  7 08:00:23 2010
From: bbenzai at yahoo.com (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2010 01:00:23 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Belief in maths
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1047.1278477872.10820.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <467131.17120.qm@web114415.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

darren shawn greer <dgreer_68 at hotmail.com> opined:

> It is such an important discussion, for secular humanists
> and religious humanists are constantly having this argument.
> "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" and "It
> most certainly is!" I think every person has to make this
> decision for themselves


I strongly disagree.

The truth of the statement "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" is not a matter of opinion.  It's a logical fact.  If a person decides it's not true, they're discarding logic altogether, and simply can't be argued with.

Ben Zaiboc


      




From rpicone at gmail.com  Wed Jul  7 08:25:36 2010
From: rpicone at gmail.com (Robert Picone)
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2010 01:25:36 -0700
Subject: [ExI] medical marijuana
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikuWTvQWYEt_S0LDAU-CItkrXT0RI2tlfIouKWM@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3674DAB8B4C44232AD1E8CEAD6949F08@spike>
	<AANLkTin-sZcVn1JEafZczCY36nOTMXIrZBHWy4rynBEM@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimZwRzifg8bj9HHF06bZ_yci9-LBRRxn5NwX2k4@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinJkxYa2sncdSY960Nk8gV542KGqEhPpkwErEWM@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinADdw_wdc25cTLf_vwfeNJZjUkgx8_X6fYqdFM@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinypSiXDz_5Y83683qTJFjvYe5JTRFBdBc5PmAz@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikuWTvQWYEt_S0LDAU-CItkrXT0RI2tlfIouKWM@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinYmJh9yRleg913xqA0MnRPaormJZAZsd9b4IKa@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 12:27 AM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:

>
> DUIs are only part of the problem of alcohol abuse.
> Quote: There are over 20,000 alcohol-induced deaths in the United
> States each year, not including motor vehicle fatalities.
>
> See:
> <http://alcoholism.about.com/od/cost/The_Costs_of_Alcohol_Abuse.htm>
>
> Once cannabis becomes as widely abused as alcohol I would expect a
> similar level of damage to society. There are always unanticipated
> effects to major law changes such as this.
>
>
> BillK
>
>
Among those remaining causes of death, violence attributed to alcohol use
and alcohol poisoning are the top two.  To my knowledge, marijuana-induced
violence and cannabis overdoses aren't exactly large social dangers.

I find it hard to understand the viewpoint that marijuana is some marginal
substance that isn't abused, but could be if people were allowed access to
it which they don't have..  The laws don't exactly prevent anyone with an
intention of abusing cannabis from doing so, 42.4% of a statistical sample
of American adults self-reported marijuana use at some point in face-to-face
interview as of 2003.  Presuming that people are equally honest between
admitting to legal and illegal activities in in-person interviews, the laws
seem to be about 13% less effective than the laws against tobacco use in
France.

http://medicine.plosjournals.org/archive/1549-1676/5/7/pdf/10.1371_journal.pmed.0050141-L.pdf
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100707/55b8fefb/attachment.html>

From rpicone at gmail.com  Wed Jul  7 08:52:34 2010
From: rpicone at gmail.com (Robert Picone)
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2010 01:52:34 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Belief in maths
In-Reply-To: <467131.17120.qm@web114415.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.1047.1278477872.10820.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<467131.17120.qm@web114415.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTil2Ld0OFd88J3hTfP-sAdzfNyXmSOD2_95Mb5U9@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 1:00 AM, Ben Zaiboc <bbenzai at yahoo.com> wrote:

> darren shawn greer <dgreer_68 at hotmail.com> opined:
> I strongly disagree.
>
> The truth of the statement "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"
> is not a matter of opinion.  It's a logical fact.  If a person decides it's
> not true, they're discarding logic altogether, and simply can't be argued
> with.
>
> Ben Zaiboc
>
>
>
It isn't logical fact.  Absence of evidence is not a proof of absence, but
it most certainly can be evidence of absence.

If I sue my landlord claiming my landlord kept a grizzly bear chained in my
basement, putting me in danger and causing me great distress and mental
anguish, but I can provide no evidence myself, and all other tenants claim
they had seen no evidence of the existance of such a bear, my absence of
evidence would weigh in as evidence against the case I am making.  No sane
or logical judge would ever conclude that my own evidence presented
(eyewitness testimony by a traumatized individual) was significant while the
defendant's absence of evidence was not, therefore I was owed damages
inflicted by this bear's obvious presence.

In many cases it is perfectly reasonable to presume that if something was
true, then the likelihood would've weighed heavily in favor of qualifying
evidence being discovered by one of many investigators.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100707/aaed0460/attachment.html>

From stathisp at gmail.com  Wed Jul  7 10:47:16 2010
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2010 20:47:16 +1000
Subject: [ExI] medical marijuana
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikuWTvQWYEt_S0LDAU-CItkrXT0RI2tlfIouKWM@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3674DAB8B4C44232AD1E8CEAD6949F08@spike>
	<AANLkTin-sZcVn1JEafZczCY36nOTMXIrZBHWy4rynBEM@mail.gmail.com> 
	<AANLkTimZwRzifg8bj9HHF06bZ_yci9-LBRRxn5NwX2k4@mail.gmail.com> 
	<AANLkTinJkxYa2sncdSY960Nk8gV542KGqEhPpkwErEWM@mail.gmail.com> 
	<AANLkTinADdw_wdc25cTLf_vwfeNJZjUkgx8_X6fYqdFM@mail.gmail.com> 
	<AANLkTinypSiXDz_5Y83683qTJFjvYe5JTRFBdBc5PmAz@mail.gmail.com> 
	<AANLkTikuWTvQWYEt_S0LDAU-CItkrXT0RI2tlfIouKWM@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikHH_GutAWwQnYuLknSkanFrzHbi0kLKGP4XUJj@mail.gmail.com>

On 7 July 2010 17:27, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:

> Once cannabis becomes as widely abused as alcohol I would expect a
> similar level of damage to society. There are always unanticipated
> effects to major law changes such as this.

Marijuana is not completely benign - it can cause cancer and trigger
psychosis in the susceptible - but it is certainly safer than alcohol
both in the physical and psychological harm it can do. In many
countries cannabis use is already either decriminalised or effectively
decriminalised, and very widely used:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_cannabis


-- 
Stathis Papaioannou


From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Wed Jul  7 13:01:05 2010
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2010 06:01:05 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The System Level Issue
Message-ID: <AANLkTikCJ9d9pYoWfmY1h5YABlZZxvoS4PTvxTqOt4l0@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 9:44 PM,  samantha <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:

> Keith Henson wrote:

>> We might even prefer to be in a simulation.
>>
>> Base reality may or may not permit time travel. ?Whatever we are in
>> appears not to permit it. ?A computer simulation that is check pointed
>> periodical (the state saved) could be restarted at a check point and
>> reentered at states corresponding to earlier times.
>>
>>
> Hmm? ?Assuming continuous simulation you can't move your state to a past
> time that the underlying computing substrate ran in its past and is not
> running now. ?Ditto for the future.

It would be a new instance, restarted from a checkpoint with an
additional character inserted in the simulation or an existing
character's memory changed to reflect the character later memory
state.  And there are limits.  You can't go further into either the
local past or future than the points at which checkpoints were made.

>?But you might be able to teleport
> if you could persuade that which simulates or is in control of the
> simulation to move you to a different part of the currently running
> universe.

Obviously you pray to the spirit of the operating system.  Alternately
the sysop.

Stathis Papaioannou <stathisp at gmail.com> wrote:

> That wouldn't be much fun though, since you won't be able to remember
> the future as remembering the future was not part of the simulation
> when run the first time.

As above, why not?  A restarted simulation with a character or
characters who had knowledge of a future version of the simulation is
not going to follow the same path as the original simulation branch.

Keith



From dgreer_68 at hotmail.com  Wed Jul  7 07:30:58 2010
From: dgreer_68 at hotmail.com (darren shawn greer)
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2010 03:30:58 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Introduction
In-Reply-To: <CA8739234B2D401E896AAF84E1930A0D@spike>
References: <CA8739234B2D401E896AAF84E1930A0D@spike>
Message-ID: <COL112-W12DDD349DA88608AE483819DB30@phx.gbl>


I guess I should introduce myself as well. My name is Darren Shawn Greer. I'm a novelist/essayist from Canada. 42 years old. Single. Gay. My life and my work have undergone a transformation in the past five years that seemed to set me off from everyone I knew. I believed that post-modernism was dead, that the future belonged to technology and robotics and that humans needed to find a way to manage that to our benefit, that there was some social evolution or sea-change taking place among people--slowly to be sure and in discreet packets in terms of population-- and that the same kind of evolution was taking place in me. I met someone on-line who introduced me in a limited fashion to the intellectual concepts and critical theory of post-humanism and I stumbled across the transhuman websites and organizations by myself later on. I moved to San Francisco for a time and had some personal experiences that did indeed confirm to me that there were radical changes taking place among some people in terms of how they viewed the world and the future of humanity, though I was convinced that the majority were not even aware of them. They were not changes you could see, but rather that you could sense.

 

Anyway, it's a complicated history so I won't try to explain it in this short space. Let's just say that the more salient precepts of this new "movement" matched my own burgeoning beliefs so precisely that I was somewhat stunned to discover that it even existed. I felt the kind of relief a man can feel only when he discovers he is no longer alone.

 

Of course, I have my own experience and thinking and beliefs which may be quite different from yours and some of the more formal aspects of this new mode of intellectual categorization. But it is close enough, and seems to me a way to move forward, in my art and in my life. As I told a friend of mine recently, I appreciate originality, but I hate to be alone.



 
DSG


 

Per Ardua Ad Astra
For more info on author Darren Greer visit 
http://darrenshawngreer.blogspot.com


 		 	   		  
_________________________________________________________________
Turn down-time into play-time with Messenger games
http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9734385
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100707/5c069e0a/attachment.html>

From dgreer_68 at hotmail.com  Wed Jul  7 11:05:31 2010
From: dgreer_68 at hotmail.com (darren shawn greer)
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2010 07:05:31 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Belief in maths
In-Reply-To: <467131.17120.qm@web114415.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.1047.1278477872.10820.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>,
	<467131.17120.qm@web114415.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <COL112-W1215E4E93211F3EE4693149DB30@phx.gbl>


 I strongly disagree.
> 
> The truth of the statement "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" is not a matter of opinion. It's a logical fact. If a person decides it's not true, they're discarding logic altogether, and simply can't be argued with.<

 

 

I agree with you 100%. It is a completely logical and true statement. But men and women have been using it for centuries to deny the existence of a universal creator, dressing up their arguments in the guise of logic when in fact, as you pointed out regarding opinion vs logic, the belief in the absence of a creator is as much of an opinion or belief as its opposite stance. And all because Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. So many otherwise intelligent and insightful atheists I know destroy eloquent supporting arguments--bolstered by logic, reason and science-- because of their initial denial of this premise.

 

It would be much more logical for Christopher Hitchins and Richard Dawkins to simply say, I don't know. There's no evidence to convince me. And it doesn't matter anyway because we have valid scientific scenarios where the universe could have originated on its own. It needs no creator to explain it. But I suppose it would be illogical of me to categorically deny the existence of a God of some sort just because I don?t see the evidence.

 

What a relief that would be! An end to the unwinnable argument that has been sapping our resources and energy and holding captive our imaginations for millennia.

 

That?s pretty much what I meant, thought I may not have expressed  it well. Thanks for the reply. It made me think and re-assess (always a good thing.)




 

Per Ardua Ad Astra
For more info on author Darren Greer visit 
http://darrenshawngreer.blogspot.com



 

> Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2010 01:00:23 -0700
> From: bbenzai at yahoo.com
> To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> Subject: Re: [ExI] Belief in maths
> 
> darren shawn greer <dgreer_68 at hotmail.com> opined:
> 
> > It is such an important discussion, for secular humanists
> > and religious humanists are constantly having this argument.
> > "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" and "It
> > most certainly is!" I think every person has to make this
> > decision for themselves
> 
> 
> I strongly disagree.
> 
> The truth of the statement "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" is not a matter of opinion. It's a logical fact. If a person decides it's not true, they're discarding logic altogether, and simply can't be argued with.
> 
> Ben Zaiboc
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
 		 	   		  
_________________________________________________________________
Turn down-time into play-time with Messenger games
http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9734385
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100707/d1a07f1e/attachment.html>

From ryanobjc at gmail.com  Wed Jul  7 06:10:24 2010
From: ryanobjc at gmail.com (Ryan Rawson)
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 23:10:24 -0700
Subject: [ExI] medical marijuana
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimZwRzifg8bj9HHF06bZ_yci9-LBRRxn5NwX2k4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3674DAB8B4C44232AD1E8CEAD6949F08@spike>
	<AANLkTin-sZcVn1JEafZczCY36nOTMXIrZBHWy4rynBEM@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimZwRzifg8bj9HHF06bZ_yci9-LBRRxn5NwX2k4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikdSwVohue1oqYZytY7YxVBc8pEtZjEgUxhM2If@mail.gmail.com>

The estimates are that the state of CA would get $1 billion/year from
taxing generally legal cannabis.  It would be regulated like alcohol
and tobacco.

-ryan

On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 10:43 PM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 7/7/10, Ryan Rawson wrote:
>> You are kind of conflating 2 things here (along with insulting those
>> ?of us who are California residents with your pithy and lame nickname):
>>
>> ?- The current proposal which will legalize and regulate Cannabis
>> ?similarly to alcohol
>> ?- Medical Cannabis has been legal for 15 years
>>
>> ?In any case, Cannabis has centuries or millenium of use (along with
>> ?alcohol, etc) and demonstrated it's human safety.
>>
>>
>
> Quote from DEA:
> There are no FDA-approved medications that are smoked. For one thing,
> smoking is generally a poor way to deliver medicine. It is difficult
> to administer safe, regulated dosages of medicines in smoked form.
> Secondly, the harmful chemicals and carcinogens that are byproducts of
> smoking create entirely new health problems. There are four times the
> level of tar in a marijuana cigarette, for example, than in a tobacco
> cigarette.
>
> Morphine, for example, has proven to be a medically valuable drug, but
> the FDA does not endorse the smoking of opium or heroin. Instead,
> scientists have extracted active ingredients from opium, which are
> sold as pharmaceutical products like morphine, codeine, hydrocodone or
> oxycodone.
> ------------------
>
>
> The FDA and big pharma want to extract the active ingredients from
> cannabis and make products that can first be tested, then marketed
> through the medical profession. Wikipedia claims that while the FDA
> has not approved marijuana it has approved THC (a compound found in
> cannabis) as an active ingredient for medicinal use.
>
> Legalizing possession of small quantities of cannabis for registered
> medical use by seriously ill people as authorised by a doctor is
> hardly likely to produce much tax income for the states or stop many
> ordinary people being jailed for possession.
>
>
> BillK
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>



From jonkc at bellsouth.net  Wed Jul  7 13:59:56 2010
From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John Clark)
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2010 09:59:56 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Belief in maths (was mind body dualism).
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinnmG8JEnpSlDmoABZhknPEgsxQxAvgAGmJwZzg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1030.1278386441.10820.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<348701.85627.qm@web114406.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<AANLkTinnmG8JEnpSlDmoABZhknPEgsxQxAvgAGmJwZzg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C178C1E0-E8A4-41F1-901E-15B57875388E@bellsouth.net>

On Jul 6, 2010, at 8:27 AM, Mike Dougherty wrote:

> I feel that even if you have seen a coin flip result in heads 99 times in a row, you cannot state with absolute certainty that the 100th toss will also be heads.

Assuming that the coin is fair (and I'd have my doubts after 99 heads) the chance it will come up heads again is 50-50. And being absolutely certain is the easiest thing in the world; being absolutely certain and also correct is much more difficult, and even then you may not know you are absolutely certain and correct.

 John K Clark   

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100707/9bf496c3/attachment.html>

From pharos at gmail.com  Wed Jul  7 14:35:06 2010
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2010 15:35:06 +0100
Subject: [ExI] medical marijuana
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikdSwVohue1oqYZytY7YxVBc8pEtZjEgUxhM2If@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3674DAB8B4C44232AD1E8CEAD6949F08@spike>
	<AANLkTin-sZcVn1JEafZczCY36nOTMXIrZBHWy4rynBEM@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimZwRzifg8bj9HHF06bZ_yci9-LBRRxn5NwX2k4@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikdSwVohue1oqYZytY7YxVBc8pEtZjEgUxhM2If@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikL8xkBFUS0BAEgj0wp2P4d4_3YKHo6NegoXJbN@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/7/10, Ryan Rawson  wrote:
> The estimates are that the state of CA would get $1 billion/year from
>  taxing generally legal cannabis.  It would be regulated like alcohol
>  and tobacco.
>
>

Agreed, but how much should be deducted for the cost of collateral damages?


Another point occurs to me. If California is trying to persuade the
Feds to give them multi-billion dollar bailouts to cover their budget
deficits, it is probably not a good idea to raise money by breaking
federal laws.


BillK


From spike66 at att.net  Wed Jul  7 15:01:05 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (Gregory Jones)
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2010 08:01:05 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Introduction
In-Reply-To: <COL112-W12DDD349DA88608AE483819DB30@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <111300.24642.qm@web81503.mail.mud.yahoo.com>


--- On Wed, 7/7/10, darren shawn greer <dgreer_68 at hotmail.com> wrote:


From: darren shawn greer <dgreer_68 at hotmail.com>
Subject: [ExI] Introduction
...




I guess I should introduce myself as well. My name is Darren Shawn Greer. I'm a novelist/essayist from Canada. 42 years old. Single. Gay. My life and my work have...
?
?
?
?
?
?
Welcome Darren!? You are not alone.? \
?
spike
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100707/e05022a1/attachment.html>

From sjatkins at mac.com  Wed Jul  7 19:37:40 2010
From: sjatkins at mac.com (samantha)
Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2010 12:37:40 -0700
Subject: [ExI] medical marijuana
In-Reply-To: <3674DAB8B4C44232AD1E8CEAD6949F08@spike>
References: <3674DAB8B4C44232AD1E8CEAD6949F08@spike>
Message-ID: <4C34D784.6090900@mac.com>

spike wrote:
> Taxifornia is on the verge of legalizing marijuana, and hoping to tax 
> it to try to dig out of its current budget abyss.  These days there is 
> something about in the news nearly every day.  I always hear about new 
> medications needing hundreds of millions of dollars worth of clinical 
> testing to verify that any new medication is safe and effective before 
> it gets FDA approval.  So why wouldn't that apply here?

Millions if not hundreds of millions have been spent.  Trying to prove 
the pot is really really bad for you.  It has failed.  To me the 
argument for legalizing pot is much more simple than any medical claims.

1) You have the right as a consenting adult to imbibe whatever you wish;
2) Given (1) others have the right to supply you with what you wish.

That said, pot is not just medicine.  So FDA rules do not apply.  Did 
the FDA need to approve alcohol or tobacco?  

- s
>  
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>   

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100707/ed43a477/attachment.html>

From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Wed Jul  7 20:36:27 2010
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2010 13:36:27 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Belief in maths (was mind body dualism)
In-Reply-To: <COL112-W37769A3E3F02ED45A43D3A9DB30@phx.gbl>
References: <mailman.1030.1278386441.10820.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>,
	<348701.85627.qm@web114406.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>,
	<AANLkTinnmG8JEnpSlDmoABZhknPEgsxQxAvgAGmJwZzg@mail.gmail.com>,
	<COL112-W3162C59433C84E22F208BC9DB20@phx.gbl>,
	<4C33DCF5.3010607@mac.com>
	<COL112-W37769A3E3F02ED45A43D3A9DB30@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <788719.95149.qm@web65608.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>


Samantha wrote:

>>Lack of evidence is a perfectly fine reason to not think something is so.? If it 
>>
>>also has logical inconsistency problems and/or has no explanatory theory that is 
>>
>>sufficiently sound then that is more reason to disbelief it.<

What constitutes "evidence" is entirely dependent on an observer's personal 
history. If?Galileo Galilei?and Richard Feynman were to be resurrected into an 
empty room, closed off from the rest of the world, Feynman would have a devil of 
a time convincing Galileo of the existence of neutrinos. Any theorectical 
explanation would have to start from scratch up to and including teaching 
Galileo the calculus. Now the philosophical kicker here is the question did 
neutrinos exist in Galileo's time? Much of our current reality had no evidence 
for its existence for most of human history. And while Galileo might be 
epistemologically justified in not believing in neutrinos and black holes, was 
he ontologically *right* in doing so?


Stuart LaForge 

"For small creatures such as we the vastness is bearable only through 
love."-Carl Sagan 


      




From wincat at swbell.net  Wed Jul  7 20:39:55 2010
From: wincat at swbell.net (Norman Jacobs)
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2010 15:39:55 -0500
Subject: [ExI] medical marijuana
In-Reply-To: <4C34D784.6090900@mac.com>
References: <3674DAB8B4C44232AD1E8CEAD6949F08@spike> <4C34D784.6090900@mac.com>
Message-ID: <010401cb1e14$8f704570$ae50d050$@net>

Well said!

 

 

From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of samantha
Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2010 2:38 PM
To: ExI chat list
Subject: Re: [ExI] medical marijuana

 

spike wrote: 

Taxifornia is on the verge of legalizing marijuana, and hoping to tax it to
try to dig out of its current budget abyss.  These days there is something
about in the news nearly every day.  I always hear about new medications
needing hundreds of millions of dollars worth of clinical testing to verify
that any new medication is safe and effective before it gets FDA approval.
So why wouldn't that apply here?


Millions if not hundreds of millions have been spent.  Trying to prove the
pot is really really bad for you.  It has failed.  To me the argument for
legalizing pot is much more simple than any medical claims.

1) You have the right as a consenting adult to imbibe whatever you wish;
2) Given (1) others have the right to supply you with what you wish.

That said, pot is not just medicine.  So FDA rules do not apply.  Did the
FDA need to approve alcohol or tobacco?   

- s



 

 



  _____  



 
_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
  

 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100707/f94c15f7/attachment.html>

From thespike at satx.rr.com  Wed Jul  7 21:20:28 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2010 16:20:28 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Belief in maths (was mind body dualism)
In-Reply-To: <788719.95149.qm@web65608.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.1030.1278386441.10820.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>,
	<348701.85627.qm@web114406.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>,
	<AANLkTinnmG8JEnpSlDmoABZhknPEgsxQxAvgAGmJwZzg@mail.gmail.com>,
	<COL112-W3162C59433C84E22F208BC9DB20@phx.gbl>,
	<4C33DCF5.3010607@mac.com>	<COL112-W37769A3E3F02ED45A43D3A9DB30@phx.gbl>
	<788719.95149.qm@web65608.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4C34EF9C.6090606@satx.rr.com>

On 7/7/2010 3:36 PM, The Avantguardian wrote:

> If Galileo Galilei and Richard Feynman were to be resurrected into an
> empty room, closed off from the rest of the world, Feynman would have a devil of
> a time convincing Galileo of the existence of neutrinos. Any theorectical
> explanation would have to start from scratch up to and including teaching
> Galileo the calculus.

By a strange coincidence, something very like this forms the spine of 
last year's sf/biographical novel GALILEO'S DREAM, by the excellent Kim 
Stanley Robinson. Galileo finds all this new stuff troubling but utterly 
enthralling, and is all over it.

Damien Broderick


From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Wed Jul  7 21:26:03 2010
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2010 14:26:03 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Belief in maths
In-Reply-To: <COL112-W1215E4E93211F3EE4693149DB30@phx.gbl>
References: <mailman.1047.1278477872.10820.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<467131.17120.qm@web114415.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<COL112-W1215E4E93211F3EE4693149DB30@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <AANLkTilb22xFNQ2ySWHkJ9XEHquoLdGT3p_0E_OE2K4n@mail.gmail.com>

2010/7/7 darren shawn greer <dgreer_68 at hotmail.com>

>   I strongly disagree.
> >
> > The truth of the statement "Absence of evidence is not evidence of
> absence" is not a matter of opinion. It's a logical fact. If a person
> decides it's not true, they're discarding logic altogether, and simply can't
> be argued with.<
>
>
> I agree with you 100%. It is a completely logical and true statement.
>

### But absence of evidence *is* evidence. You cannot arbitrarily discard
this piece of information - depending on the context, absence of evidence
may be a reasonably strong evidence of absence.For example, the complete
absence of evidence for the existence of flying spaghetti monsters,
day after day, is a legitimate reason to continue disbelieving in the
spaghetti monsters. You should assign a lower likelihood to their existence
than you assign to the existence of entities for which there is evidence,
however shaky, such as the yeti. I hope you agree that the yeti is more
likely to exist than the spagetti monster, no?

Rafal
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100707/b7eed49a/attachment.html>

From thespike at satx.rr.com  Wed Jul  7 21:51:44 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2010 16:51:44 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Belief in maths
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTilb22xFNQ2ySWHkJ9XEHquoLdGT3p_0E_OE2K4n@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1047.1278477872.10820.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>	<467131.17120.qm@web114415.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>	<COL112-W1215E4E93211F3EE4693149DB30@phx.gbl>
	<AANLkTilb22xFNQ2ySWHkJ9XEHquoLdGT3p_0E_OE2K4n@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4C34F6F0.1010907@satx.rr.com>

On 7/7/2010 4:26 PM, Rafal Smigrodzki wrote:

> I hope you agree that the yeti is more likely to exist than the spagetti
> monster, no?

Not to mention their frightful offspring, the spagyeti monster.

Damien Broderick



From mbb386 at main.nc.us  Wed Jul  7 21:56:18 2010
From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB)
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2010 17:56:18 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Belief in maths
In-Reply-To: <4C34F6F0.1010907@satx.rr.com>
References: <mailman.1047.1278477872.10820.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<467131.17120.qm@web114415.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<COL112-W1215E4E93211F3EE4693149DB30@phx.gbl>
	<AANLkTilb22xFNQ2ySWHkJ9XEHquoLdGT3p_0E_OE2K4n@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C34F6F0.1010907@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <3bfbb937ff8b97c1bafdfff4e1c5710e.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>




>
>> I hope you agree that the yeti is more likely to exist than the spagetti
>> monster, no?
>
> Not to mention their frightful offspring, the spagyeti monster.
>

Thank you Damien, the laugh was sorely needed today!  It's no wonder you're a
writer. :)

Regards,
MB



From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Wed Jul  7 22:18:12 2010
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2010 15:18:12 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Belief in maths
In-Reply-To: <4C34F6F0.1010907@satx.rr.com>
References: <mailman.1047.1278477872.10820.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<467131.17120.qm@web114415.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<COL112-W1215E4E93211F3EE4693149DB30@phx.gbl>
	<AANLkTilb22xFNQ2ySWHkJ9XEHquoLdGT3p_0E_OE2K4n@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C34F6F0.1010907@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikSVGgYHeQH6mQtgOeTvdI-Cy6GCuFWpnpS_7fX@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 2:51 PM, Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com> wrote:
> On 7/7/2010 4:26 PM, Rafal Smigrodzki wrote:
>
>> I hope you agree that the yeti is more likely to exist than the spagetti
>> monster, no?
>
> Not to mention their frightful offspring, the spagyeti monster.

### That one is found only in Russia ....

Rafal


From msd001 at gmail.com  Wed Jul  7 23:51:33 2010
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2010 19:51:33 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Belief in maths (was mind body dualism).
In-Reply-To: <C178C1E0-E8A4-41F1-901E-15B57875388E@bellsouth.net>
References: <mailman.1030.1278386441.10820.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<348701.85627.qm@web114406.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<AANLkTinnmG8JEnpSlDmoABZhknPEgsxQxAvgAGmJwZzg@mail.gmail.com>
	<C178C1E0-E8A4-41F1-901E-15B57875388E@bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikWmNEWZVvtWeSWktwBRwbe1W9fCHLzr_8gH5RT@mail.gmail.com>

2010/7/7 John Clark <jonkc at bellsouth.net>:
> On Jul 6, 2010, at 8:27 AM, Mike Dougherty wrote:
>
> I feel that even if you have seen a coin flip?result in heads 99 times in a
> row, you cannot state with absolute?certainty that the 100th toss will also
> be heads.
>
> Assuming that the coin is fair (and I'd have my doubts after 99 heads) the
> chance it will come up heads again is 50-50. And being absolutely certain is
> the easiest thing in the world; being absolutely certain and also correct is
> much more difficult, and even then you may not know you are absolutely
> certain and correct.

Of course a fair coin is 50/50.  How did we learn this?

I'm not trying to make a counterpoint.  I would really like to grok
this.  Given no prior experience of a fair coin, is the 50/50
probability so obvious?  If we start with the understanding that there
are two countable states of coin then it is possible to claim one or
the other will result from 2 choices, therefore 1/2 or 50/50 chance.

Suppose we now try to enumerate the states of a hypercubic golden
dragon (for the sake of an absurdity)  What is the probability that it
will be in any of those states upon being discovered?

How do we compute probability on unknown states of objects with
complexity several orders of magnitude beyond a coin or a pair of
dice?  It's not an academic exercise where one can start with "assume
a large computronium-based Jupiter brain"  or some theoretical
"enumerate the states of the universe and subtract..."  We make these
guesses about the likelihood of everyday events... well... everyday.

How do we get from personal/subjective experience to ideal mathematical models?



From msd001 at gmail.com  Thu Jul  8 00:00:02 2010
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2010 20:00:02 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Belief in maths (was mind body dualism)
In-Reply-To: <755441.29241.qm@web81607.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <AANLkTik8FEaXOQNL6KqXNQsMsqFb_Ccu7sV_17fbgWx9@mail.gmail.com>
	<755441.29241.qm@web81607.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimAYo7CUzM_6u07xN023_BAlreuVnfmgu-74x4g@mail.gmail.com>

2010/7/7 Adrian Tymes <wingcat at pacbell.net>
> Actually, it is possible to completely prove the functionality of small pieces of
> code, given certain assumptions.? For instance, assuming the following is run
> via a standard Perl interpreter in the normal sense (with a stdout, et al), the
> following code will always output the string "2" followed by a newline:
> ---
> my $foo = 1;
> $foo = $foo + 1;
> print $foo . "\n";
> ---

Granted.  I overinflated the analogy.

> The trick is, how far can one go with this, while still being economical about
> the effort involved?? NASA's coding procedures - and the astronomical costs
> involved - are a good example of what happens when one tries to apply this
> to very complex programs.? (And even that sometimes fails, though for lack
> of communication and strict adherence to model instead of for theoretical
> break in the model itself.)

Clearly there are cases of computation that may not complete within
the lifetime of the author or possibly the lifetime of the universe.
Some of these questions are solved pragmatically by our brains.  Some
our brains simply refuse to parse/compile/run in the first place.  I
think there's an important piece in there but I'll come back to it at
a much later date.

> effort that the stakeholders often refuse to put forth.? How often have you
> been given vague requirements, where the giver refused to write them
> down into something formal that you could prove whether or not you've
> met?)

Every day.  :)



From msd001 at gmail.com  Thu Jul  8 00:07:33 2010
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2010 20:07:33 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Belief in maths
In-Reply-To: <4C34F6F0.1010907@satx.rr.com>
References: <mailman.1047.1278477872.10820.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<467131.17120.qm@web114415.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<COL112-W1215E4E93211F3EE4693149DB30@phx.gbl>
	<AANLkTilb22xFNQ2ySWHkJ9XEHquoLdGT3p_0E_OE2K4n@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C34F6F0.1010907@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikdjfk23dVMLqC-Z8XybjRgRAfkVy_B6eCdTDGi@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 5:51 PM, Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com> wrote:
> On 7/7/2010 4:26 PM, Rafal Smigrodzki wrote:
>
>> I hope you agree that the yeti is more likely to exist than the spagetti
>> monster, no?
>
> Not to mention their frightful offspring, the spagyeti monster.
>

abominable's no man; it's a beast.


From moulton at moulton.com  Thu Jul  8 04:06:07 2010
From: moulton at moulton.com (Fred C. Moulton)
Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2010 21:06:07 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Belief in maths
In-Reply-To: <COL112-W1215E4E93211F3EE4693149DB30@phx.gbl>
References: <mailman.1047.1278477872.10820.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	, <467131.17120.qm@web114415.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<COL112-W1215E4E93211F3EE4693149DB30@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <1278561967.7801.674.camel@desktop-linux>

On Wed, 2010-07-07 at 07:05 -0400, darren shawn greer wrote:
>  
> It would be much more logical for Christopher Hitchins and Richard
> Dawkins to simply say, I don't know. 

It should be pointed out that Dawkins does not say he has absolute
knowledge.  He has a nuanced view which is summarized in chapter 2 of
his book The God Delusion.  It is not an absolutist view.  

I have read more writings and listened to more lectures by Dawkins than
I have Hitchens thus I am not going to comment on Hitchens.

What I will suggest is that if people want to be taken seriously they
avoid giving the implication that they think atheists as a group have an
absolutist position on this matter.  If a particular individual has an
absolutist view then please provide a citation when criticizing that
person.

And there is a helpful heuristic to use when considering statements
which contain references to gods or creators; replace the term in
question with "the footrest at home which is a pink invisible elephant
wearing a yellow tutu and having a mass of 100 suns".  Thus the
statement "You can not disprove the existence of some undefined and
vague creator" becomes "You can not disprove the existence of the
footrest at home which is a pink invisible elephant wearing a yellow
tutu and having a mass of 100 suns".  Since it is a heuristic it might
not be applicable in every circumstance however it is often useful in
demonstrating the level of BS of which much of the talk about gods and
creators consists.

Fred




From jonkc at bellsouth.net  Thu Jul  8 04:09:06 2010
From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John Clark)
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2010 00:09:06 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Belief in maths (was mind body dualism).
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikWmNEWZVvtWeSWktwBRwbe1W9fCHLzr_8gH5RT@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1030.1278386441.10820.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<348701.85627.qm@web114406.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<AANLkTinnmG8JEnpSlDmoABZhknPEgsxQxAvgAGmJwZzg@mail.gmail.com>
	<C178C1E0-E8A4-41F1-901E-15B57875388E@bellsouth.net>
	<AANLkTikWmNEWZVvtWeSWktwBRwbe1W9fCHLzr_8gH5RT@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <15544F8B-EF77-45E8-8CF5-AE7BD2583DBF@bellsouth.net>

On Jul 7, 2010, at 7:51 PM, Mike Dougherty wrote:

> Of course a fair coin is 50/50.  How did we learn this?

From it's history. If I knew nothing about the coin except that it just produced 99 heads in a row I would say the probability it is a fair coin is greater than zero but very very small. I certainly wouldn't trust it for anything important.

 John K Clark

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100708/1ba909e2/attachment.html>

From thespike at satx.rr.com  Thu Jul  8 15:42:46 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2010 10:42:46 -0500
Subject: [ExI] proton measurement upset
Message-ID: <4C35F1F6.5050701@satx.rr.com>

Shrunken proton leaves scientists stunned
Thursday, 8 July 2010
Agence France-Presse


Measurements with lasers have revealed that the proton may be a touch 
smaller than predicted by current theories



PARIS: ... revised measurements shave 4% off the [proton]'s radius, 
according to a study in Nature.

...if borne out in further experiments, the findings could challenge 
fundamental precepts of quantum electrodynamics, the theory of how 
quantum light and matter interact, said its authors.

A team of 32 international scientists led by Randolf Pohl of the Max 
Planck Institute in Garching, Germany, had initially set out only to 
confirm what was already known rather than overturn time-honoured 
assumptions.

For decades, particle physicists have used the hydrogen atom as a 
benchmark for measuring the size of protons, which are part of the core 
of atoms. The advantage of hydrogen is its unrivalled simplicity: one 
electron circles a single proton.

But this unit of measure turns out to have been wrong by a small but 
critical margin, if the paper is right.

"We didn't imagine that there would be a gap between the known measures 
of the proton and our own," admitted co-author Paul Indelicato, director 
of the Kastler Brossel Laboratory at the Pierre and Marie Curie 
University in Paris.

The new experiment - at least 10 times more accurate than any performed 
to date - was envisioned by physicists 40 years ago, but only recent 
developments in technology made it feasible.

The trick was to replace the electron in the hydrogen atom with a 
negative muon, a particle with the same electric charge but more than 
200 times heavier and unstable to boot.

The muon's larger mass gives muonic hydrogen a smaller atomic size and 
allows a much larger interaction with the proton. As a result, the 
proton's structure can be probed more accurately than by using hydrogen.

Jeff Flowers, a researcher at Britain's National Physical Laboratory in 
Teddington, near London, said the work could take the theories of 
particle physics into new territory.

If confirmed, it would do even more than the multi-billion-dollar giant 
particle smasher at CERN in Switzerland to test the so-called Standard 
Model, which sets down the notional list of sub-atomic particles, he 
said in a commentary published in the same journal.

Either the previously accepted measures upon which hundreds of 
calculations have been based are wrong, or there is a problem with the 
theory of quantum electrodynamics itself.

Either way, physicists still have some serious explaining to do.

"Now the theoreticians are going to redo their equations, and more 
experiments will be done to confirm or overturn it," said Indelicato.

"In two years we will do another experiment with the same equipment, but 
this time with muonic helium," he added.


From dgreer_68 at hotmail.com  Wed Jul  7 16:59:16 2010
From: dgreer_68 at hotmail.com (darren shawn greer)
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2010 12:59:16 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Introduction
In-Reply-To: <111300.24642.qm@web81503.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <COL112-W12DDD349DA88608AE483819DB30@phx.gbl>,
	<111300.24642.qm@web81503.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <COL112-W2672A0DD1111AA8FA7A1B9DB30@phx.gbl>


.Welcome Darren!  You are not alone.,
 
 
Thanks Spike. That statement means alot.


Per Ardua Ad Astra
For more info on author Darren Greer visit 
http://darrenshawngreer.blogspot.com



 



Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2010 08:01:05 -0700
From: spike66 at att.net
To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
Subject: Re: [ExI] Introduction






--- On Wed, 7/7/10, darren shawn greer <dgreer_68 at hotmail.com> wrote:


From: darren shawn greer <dgreer_68 at hotmail.com>
Subject: [ExI] Introduction
...




I guess I should introduce myself as well. My name is Darren Shawn Greer. I'm a novelist/essayist from Canada. 42 years old. Single. Gay. My life and my work have...
 
 
 
 
 
 
  \
 
spike
 		 	   		  
_________________________________________________________________
Turn down-time into play-time with Messenger games
http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9734385
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100707/4197ce17/attachment.html>

From dgreer_68 at hotmail.com  Thu Jul  8 05:10:18 2010
From: dgreer_68 at hotmail.com (darren shawn greer)
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2010 01:10:18 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Belief in maths
In-Reply-To: <15544F8B-EF77-45E8-8CF5-AE7BD2583DBF@bellsouth.net>
References: <mailman.1030.1278386441.10820.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>,
	<348701.85627.qm@web114406.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>,
	<AANLkTinnmG8JEnpSlDmoABZhknPEgsxQxAvgAGmJwZzg@mail.gmail.com>,
	<C178C1E0-E8A4-41F1-901E-15B57875388E@bellsouth.net>,
	<AANLkTikWmNEWZVvtWeSWktwBRwbe1W9fCHLzr_8gH5RT@mail.gmail.com>,
	<15544F8B-EF77-45E8-8CF5-AE7BD2583DBF@bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <COL112-W4560EEC7C32C0585E3D8639DB40@phx.gbl>


> And there is a helpful heuristic to use when considering statements
> which contain references to gods or creators; replace the term in
> question with "the footrest at home which is a pink invisible elephant
> wearing a yellow tutu and having a mass of 100 suns". Thus the
> statement "You can not disprove the existence of some undefined and
> vague creator" becomes "You can not disprove the existence of the
> footrest at home which is a pink invisible elephant wearing a yellow
> tutu and having a mass of 100 suns". Since it is a heuristic it might
> not be applicable in every circumstance however it is often useful in
> demonstrating the level of BS of which much of the talk about gods and
> creators consists. 
 

 

Sure. Why not? It started with Hyercubical Golden Dragons. It could just as easily end with that. The point of that post was my belief that human beings might be better off if we collectively abandon such arguments altogether as irrelevant, unwinnable and ultimately unknowable. Not to mention that they often deteriorate into derision and sarcasm. 



Per Ardua Ad Astra
For more info on author Darren Greer visit 
http://darrenshawngreer.blogspot.com



 



From: jonkc at bellsouth.net
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2010 00:09:06 -0400
To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
Subject: Re: [ExI] Belief in maths (was mind body dualism).



On Jul 7, 2010, at 7:51 PM, Mike Dougherty wrote:
Of course a fair coin is 50/50.  How did we learn this?

>From it's history. If I knew nothing about the coin except that it just produced 99 heads in a row I would say the probability it is a fair coin is greater than zero but very very small. I certainly wouldn't trust it for anything important.


 John K Clark
 		 	   		  
_________________________________________________________________
Game on: Challenge friends to great games on Messenger
http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9734387
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100708/edd6f874/attachment.html>

From pharos at gmail.com  Thu Jul  8 17:17:09 2010
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2010 18:17:09 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Introduction
In-Reply-To: <COL112-W2672A0DD1111AA8FA7A1B9DB30@phx.gbl>
References: <COL112-W12DDD349DA88608AE483819DB30@phx.gbl>
	<111300.24642.qm@web81503.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<COL112-W2672A0DD1111AA8FA7A1B9DB30@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <AANLkTilYGV9Kk-FKZifYF29CXYstOhHsnzQH_tE41BAH@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/7/10, darren shawn greer wrote:
>
> On 7/7/10, Gregory Jones wrote:
> >  .Welcome Darren!? You are not alone.,
>
>
> Thanks Spike. That statement means alot.
>
>
>


Just wait till you find out who / what else is in the room with you!   ;)


And don't look under the bed.
And especially don't look in the closet!

But if you find one, don't poke it with a stick - just run.


BillK



From moulton at moulton.com  Thu Jul  8 18:26:29 2010
From: moulton at moulton.com (Fred C. Moulton)
Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2010 11:26:29 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Belief in maths
In-Reply-To: <COL112-W4560EEC7C32C0585E3D8639DB40@phx.gbl>
References: <mailman.1030.1278386441.10820.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	, <348701.85627.qm@web114406.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	, <AANLkTinnmG8JEnpSlDmoABZhknPEgsxQxAvgAGmJwZzg@mail.gmail.com>
	, <C178C1E0-E8A4-41F1-901E-15B57875388E@bellsouth.net>
	, <AANLkTikWmNEWZVvtWeSWktwBRwbe1W9fCHLzr_8gH5RT@mail.gmail.com>
	, <15544F8B-EF77-45E8-8CF5-AE7BD2583DBF@bellsouth.net>
	<COL112-W4560EEC7C32C0585E3D8639DB40@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <1278613589.7801.751.camel@desktop-linux>

On Thu, 2010-07-08 at 01:10 -0400, darren shawn greer wrote:
>  
>  The point of that post was my belief that human beings might be
> better off if we collectively abandon such arguments altogether as
> irrelevant, unwinnable and ultimately unknowable. Not to mention that
> they often deteriorate into derision and sarcasm. 
> 

But the arguments are not irrelevant if those arguments are successful
in getting people to stop holding certain beliefs.  There are people who
ran the Inquisition because of their beliefs.  There are people who fly
planes into buildings because of their beliefs.  There are people who
deny full civil rights to LGBT people because of their beliefs.  The
roles of arguments is to help refine our cognitive space by rejecting
and/or correcting ideas which can not stand up to rational criticism.

For a further exploration of these idea see:
     The Retreat to Commitment by W. W. Bartley
and
     The End of Faith by Sam Harris

Fred





From spike66 at att.net  Thu Jul  8 19:04:38 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (Gregory Jones)
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2010 12:04:38 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] proton measurement upset
In-Reply-To: <4C35F1F6.5050701@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <296108.21515.qm@web81508.mail.mud.yahoo.com>


--- On Thu, 7/8/10, Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com> wrote:
?
...Measurements with lasers have revealed that the proton may be a touch smaller than predicted by current theories...

A touch smaller?? 4% is huuuge.? Did they mean 4 parts per billion?? I know it is premature judgment and all that, but this result must be wrong, waaaaay wrong.? I can't imagine how this could be right.? No way!? Can't be, just can't.? That result?messes up?quantum theory all to holler.? Actually it messes up more than just quantum theory.
?
spike

?
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100708/9994dff7/attachment.html>

From rpicone at gmail.com  Thu Jul  8 19:33:44 2010
From: rpicone at gmail.com (Robert Picone)
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2010 12:33:44 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Belief in maths (was mind body dualism).
In-Reply-To: <15544F8B-EF77-45E8-8CF5-AE7BD2583DBF@bellsouth.net>
References: <mailman.1030.1278386441.10820.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<348701.85627.qm@web114406.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<AANLkTinnmG8JEnpSlDmoABZhknPEgsxQxAvgAGmJwZzg@mail.gmail.com>
	<C178C1E0-E8A4-41F1-901E-15B57875388E@bellsouth.net>
	<AANLkTikWmNEWZVvtWeSWktwBRwbe1W9fCHLzr_8gH5RT@mail.gmail.com>
	<15544F8B-EF77-45E8-8CF5-AE7BD2583DBF@bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimugAham0AmnN94IiuRb8Q5T0yZd1mn4-2i1_Yj@mail.gmail.com>

2010/7/7 John Clark <jonkc at bellsouth.net>

> On Jul 7, 2010, at 7:51 PM, Mike Dougherty wrote:
>
> Of course a fair coin is 50/50.  How did we learn this?
>
>
> From it's history. If I knew nothing about the coin except that it just
> produced 99 heads in a row I would say the probability it is a fair coin is
> greater than zero but very very small. I certainly wouldn't trust it for
> anything important.
>
>  John K Clark
>
>
> At 1/2^98 (or 1 in 317 billion billion billion, (317 octillion?)), the odds
of the next flip killing the observer are much much greater than the odds of
it being a series of fair flips, the odds of any event that has ever
occurred in the history of the universe reoccurring are much much greater
than the chances of it being a series of fair coin flips..  Even though the
chance is indeed nonzero, as with many other elements of this discussion,
there is no reasonable reason to treat it any different than if it were
zero.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100708/44c0dca4/attachment.html>

From thespike at satx.rr.com  Thu Jul  8 19:42:41 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2010 14:42:41 -0500
Subject: [ExI] proton measurement upset
In-Reply-To: <296108.21515.qm@web81508.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <296108.21515.qm@web81508.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4C362A31.6060200@satx.rr.com>

On 7/8/2010 2:04 PM, Gregory Jones wrote:

> A touch smaller?  4% is huuuge.  Did they mean 4 parts per billion?

Nope.

> I know it is premature judgment and all that, but this result must be
> wrong, waaaaay wrong.

<http://www.nature.com/news/2010/100707/full/news.2010.337.html>

The proton seems to be 0.00000000000003 millimetres smaller than 
researchers previously thought, according to work published in today's 
issue of Nature1.

The difference is so infinitesimal that it might defy belief that 
anyone, even physicists, would care. But the new measurements could mean 
that there is a gap in existing theories of quantum mechanics. "It's a 
very serious discrepancy," says Ingo Sick, a physicist at the University 
of Basel in Switzerland, who has tried to reconcile the finding with 
four decades of previous measurements. "There is really something 
seriously wrong someplace."

Protons are among the most common particles out there. Together with 
their neutral counterparts, neutrons, they form the nuclei of every atom 
in the Universe. But despite its everday appearance, the proton remains 
something of a mystery to nuclear physicists, says Randolf Pohl, a 
researcher at the Max Planck Institute of Quantum Optics in Garching, 
Germany, and an author on the Nature paper. "We don't understand a lot 
of its internal structure," he says.

 From afar, the proton looks like a small point of positive charge, but 
on much closer inspection, the particle is more complex. Each proton is 
made of smaller fundamental particles called quarks, and that means its 
charge is roughly spread throughout a spherical area.

Physicists can measure the size of the proton by watching as an electron 
interacts with a proton. A single electron orbiting a proton can occupy 
only certain, discrete energy levels, which are described by the laws of 
quantum mechanics. Some of these energy levels depend in part on the 
size of the proton, and since the 1960s physicists have made hundreds of 
measurements of the proton's size with staggering accuracy. The most 
recent estimates, made by Sick using previous data, put the radius of 
the proton at around 0.8768 femtometres (1 femtometre = 10-15 metres).

Small wonder

Pohl and his team have a come up with a smaller number by using a cousin 
of the electron, known as the muon. Muons are about 200 times heavier 
than electrons, making them more sensitive to the proton's size. To 
measure the proton radius using the muon, Pohl and his colleagues fired 
muons from a particle accelerator at a cloud of hydrogen. Hydrogen 
nuclei each consist of a single proton, orbited by an electron. 
Sometimes a muon replaces an electron and orbits around a proton. Using 
lasers, the team measured relevant muonic energy levels with extremely 
high accuracy and found that the proton was around 4% smaller than 
previously thought.

That might not sound like much, but the difference is so far from 
previous measurements that the researchers actually missed it the first 
two times they ran the experiment in 2003 and 2007. "We thought that our 
laser system was not good enough," Pohl says. In 2009, they looked 
beyond the narrow range in which they expected to see the proton radius 
and saw an unmistakable signal.

"What gives? I don't know," says Sick. He says he believes the new 
result, but that there is no obvious way to make it compatible with 
years of earlier measurements.

"Something is missing, this is very clear," agrees Carl Carlson, a 
theoretical physicist at the College of William & Mary in Williamsburg, 
Virginia. The most intriguing possibility is that previously undetected 
particles are changing the interaction of the muon and the proton. Such 
particles could be the 'superpartners' of existing particles, as 
predicted by a theory known as supersymmetry, which seeks to unite all 
of the fundamental forces of physics, except gravity.

But, Carlson says, "the first thing is to go through the existing 
calculations with a fine tooth comb". It could be that an error was 
made, or that approximations made in existing quantum calculation simply 
aren't good enough. "Right now, I'd put my money on some other 
correction," he says. "It's also where my research time will be going 
over the next month."

     *
       References
          1. Pohl, R. et al. Nature 466, 213-217 (2010). | Article



From jonkc at bellsouth.net  Thu Jul  8 21:15:34 2010
From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John Clark)
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2010 17:15:34 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Could Thorium solve our energy problem?
Message-ID: <4D8D0CDA-1A5A-473B-B42D-241F84D85D6C@bellsouth.net>

I've been reading about Thorium reactors, in particular Liquid Fluoride Thorium Reactors (LFTR) and I'm very impressed, I don't believe nearly enough is being done in this area. With all respect to Keith Henson I think this is much more likely to provide our energy needs than space based solar. I think this is what fusion wanted to be, certainly it's better than conventional nuclear fission. Consider the advantages:

*Thorium is much more common than Uranium, almost twice as common as Tin in fact. And Thorium is easier to extract from its ore than Uranium.

*A Thorium reactor burns up all the Thorium in it so at current usage that element could supply our energy needs for many thousands, perhaps millions of years; A conventional light water reactor only burns .7% of the Uranium in it.

* To burn the remaining 99.3% of Uranium you'd have to use a exotic fast neutron breeder reactor, Thorium reactors use slow neutrons and so are inherently more stable because you have much more time to react if something goes wrong. Also breeders produce massive amounts of Plutonium which is a bad thing if you're worried about people making bombs. Thorium produces an insignificant amount of Plutonium.

* Thorium does produce Uranium 233 and theoretically you could make a bomb out of that, but it would be contaminated with Uranium 232 which is a powerful gamma ray emitter which would make it suicidal to work with unless extraordinary precautions were taken, and even then the unexploded bomb would be so radioactive it would give away its presents if you tried to hide it, destroy its electronic firing circuits and degrade its chemical explosives. For these reasons even after 65 years nobody has even tried to make bomb out of Uranium 233.

*A Thorium reactor only produces about 1% as much waste as a conventional reactor and the stuff it does make is not as nasty, after about 5 years 87% of it would be safe and the remaining 13% in 300 years; a conventional reactor would take 100,000 years. 

*A Thorium reactor has an inherent safety feature, the fuel is in liquid form (Thorium dissolved in un-corrosive molten Fluoride salts) so if for whatever reason things get too hot the liquid expands and so the fuel gets less dense and the reaction slows down.

*There is yet another fail safe device. At the bottom of the reactor is something called a "freeze plug", fans blow on it to freeze it solid, if things get too hot the plug melts and the liquid drains out into a holding tank and the reaction stops; also if all electronic controls die due to a loss of electrical power the fans will stop the plug will melt and the reaction will stop.

*Thorium reactors work at much higher temperatures than conventional reactors so you have better energy efficiency; in fact they are so hot the waste heat could be used to desalinate sea water or generate hydrogen fuel from water.

* Although the liquid Fluoride salt is very hot it is not under pressure so that makes the plumbing of the thing much easier, and even if you did get a leak it would not be the utter disaster it would be in a conventional reactor; that is also why the containment building in common light water reactors need to be so much larger than the reactor itself. With Thorium nothing is under pressure and there is no danger of a disastrous phase change so the expensive containment building can be made much more compact. 

If you're interested in this technology this might be a good place to start:

http://blogs.howstuffworks.com/2009/12/01/how-a-liquid-fluoride-thorium-reactor-lftr-works/

 John K Clark  


   


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100708/e8aa0e6d/attachment.html>

From natasha at natasha.cc  Thu Jul  8 20:53:28 2010
From: natasha at natasha.cc (natasha at natasha.cc)
Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2010 16:53:28 -0400
Subject: [ExI] NEWS: Cat's Recovery
In-Reply-To: <1278613589.7801.751.camel@desktop-linux>
References: <mailman.1030.1278386441.10820.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	, <348701.85627.qm@web114406.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> ,
	<AANLkTinnmG8JEnpSlDmoABZhknPEgsxQxAvgAGmJwZzg@mail.gmail.com> ,
	<C178C1E0-E8A4-41F1-901E-15B57875388E@bellsouth.net> ,
	<AANLkTikWmNEWZVvtWeSWktwBRwbe1W9fCHLzr_8gH5RT@mail.gmail.com> ,
	<15544F8B-EF77-45E8-8CF5-AE7BD2583DBF@bellsouth.net>
	<COL112-W4560EEC7C32C0585E3D8639DB40@phx.gbl>
	<1278613589.7801.751.camel@desktop-linux>
Message-ID: <20100708165328.5m13di6cbo40osww@webmail.natasha.cc>

http://www.cnn.com/2010/TECH/innovation/07/08/cat.bionic.feet/index.html?hpt=C2

For cat fans.

Natasha



From jrd1415 at gmail.com  Thu Jul  8 21:05:06 2010
From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis)
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2010 14:05:06 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Introduction
In-Reply-To: <COL112-W12DDD349DA88608AE483819DB30@phx.gbl>
References: <CA8739234B2D401E896AAF84E1930A0D@spike>
	<COL112-W12DDD349DA88608AE483819DB30@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikQiafd3jyv3AZOv7m5GF5Tt0vM1J7bqfgPcxn-@mail.gmail.com>

2010/7/7 darren shawn greer <dgreer_68 at hotmail.com>

 ...matched my own burgeoning beliefs so precisely that I was somewhat
> stunned to discover that it even existed. I felt the kind of relief a man
> can feel only when he discovers he is no longer alone. **<http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat>
>

Darren,

That's how it was for me, as well, some twelve years ago.  An exciting, and
as you say surprising find.   Just down the road from Brigadoon.  Beyond the
Mists of Maya.

Welcome.

Best, Jeff Davis

          "Everything's hard till you know how to do it."
                                                  Ray Charles
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100708/44a12a32/attachment.html>

From jrd1415 at gmail.com  Thu Jul  8 23:52:09 2010
From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis)
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2010 16:52:09 -0700
Subject: [ExI] proton measurement upset
In-Reply-To: <296108.21515.qm@web81508.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <4C35F1F6.5050701@satx.rr.com>
	<296108.21515.qm@web81508.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTilfoSLnwRxdha73Co615C-ZgktAvC32Qw7SzlUD@mail.gmail.com>

Take a deep breath, Gregory, and here, put this paper bag over your head.
Okay, now go to your happy place........

Before we go all "The sky is falling!  The sky is falling!." how about
distracting oneself with some dilletantishly inept splainin'.

How's this:

Proton made of sub-elements called Quarks, ya?  Distinct entities these
quarks, ya?   Of Mr. Proton there be three, ya?  Inherently dynamic slash
mobile, ya?    Whether quantum or classical be the idiom, ya?   Movement,
motion, waveforms all pulsatile, ya?  Frenzied they be, ya?  Scurrying to
and fro, 'bout the plank matrix, ya?    Dancing with the Lepton who
brung'em, ya?

Dance lepton!  Dance quarks!   White lab coats watch, white lab coats
measure.  The sacred data gathered be.  Crunch your numbers, dark mutants of
algorythmic prophecy.  Crunch, crunch.  Aaaaaaaah!  Now tell of the embrace
of the three quarks and their Lepton.  They keep the thrill of her touch at
what remove?  "n" you say.  They like her that much?  The night is young,
the sweet whine of the particle accelerator thrills the air, if this music
be the mood of entanglement, mu on.

"Muon?", you say.  And here she comes.   Burly and robust in her
Lepton-hood, she boots her spindly sister-lepton out of orbit with a flip of
eigenvector, and localizes the domain of her briefly destabilized quark
triplet.   She grips them tightly, more tightly than one might suppose.  And
the dance is on.

"They call me unstable!" she announces with defiant playfulness, "But
they're just envious.  It's so boring to be unreactive.  Hold me close
darlings, I want to feel that strong force.  Closer still.  If you love me,
suck in your waveforms, boys.  There you go.  That's got it.  Four percent.
Singular talent.  You put the "pro" in proton.  I'll bond with you boys
anytime."

So you see, Gregory, everything is alright.  Theories come and go.  It's the
way of things.  Not to worry.  Tomorrow we'll have a little ceremony and
bury the old theory in the backyard, right next to Nasa's pre-eminence, and
the US Constitution.  Now now, don't cry.

Best, Jeff Davis

"Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who
         said it--no matter if I have said it--unless it agrees with
                    your own reason and your common sense."
                                                                   Buddha




2010/7/8 Gregory Jones <spike66 at att.net>

>
> --- On *Thu, 7/8/10, Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com>* wrote:
>
> ...Measurements with lasers have revealed that the proton may be a touch
> smaller than predicted by current theories...
>
> A touch smaller?  4% is huuuge.  Did they mean 4 parts per billion?  I know
> it is premature judgment and all that, but this result must be wrong,
> waaaaay wrong.  I can't imagine how this could be right.  No way!  Can't be,
> just can't.  That result messes up quantum theory all to holler.  Actually
> it messes up more than just quantum theory.
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100708/d9686dfa/attachment.html>

From sjatkins at mac.com  Fri Jul  9 00:25:32 2010
From: sjatkins at mac.com (samantha)
Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2010 17:25:32 -0700
Subject: [ExI] NEWS: Cat's Recovery
In-Reply-To: <20100708165328.5m13di6cbo40osww@webmail.natasha.cc>
References: <mailman.1030.1278386441.10820.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<348701.85627.qm@web114406.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<AANLkTinnmG8JEnpSlDmoABZhknPEgsxQxAvgAGmJwZzg@mail.gmail.com>
	<C178C1E0-E8A4-41F1-901E-15B57875388E@bellsouth.net>
	<AANLkTikWmNEWZVvtWeSWktwBRwbe1W9fCHLzr_8gH5RT@mail.gmail.com>
	<15544F8B-EF77-45E8-8CF5-AE7BD2583DBF@bellsouth.net>
	<COL112-W4560EEC7C32C0585E3D8639DB40@phx.gbl>
	<1278613589.7801.751.camel@desktop-linux>
	<20100708165328.5m13di6cbo40osww@webmail.natasha.cc>
Message-ID: <4C366C7C.3020304@mac.com>

natasha at natasha.cc wrote:
> http://www.cnn.com/2010/TECH/innovation/07/08/cat.bionic.feet/index.html?hpt=C2 
>
>
> For cat fans.

Cool.  But those back feet don't look worth a damn for fighting, 
climbing trees or even scratching with.  And they are simple prosthetics 
rather than bionics.  But I am very happy for the cat.

- seren


From sjatkins at mac.com  Fri Jul  9 00:36:53 2010
From: sjatkins at mac.com (samantha)
Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2010 17:36:53 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Could Thorium solve our energy problem?
In-Reply-To: <4D8D0CDA-1A5A-473B-B42D-241F84D85D6C@bellsouth.net>
References: <4D8D0CDA-1A5A-473B-B42D-241F84D85D6C@bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <4C366F25.5000101@mac.com>

John Clark wrote:
> I've been reading about Thorium reactors, in particular Liquid 
> Fluoride Thorium Reactors (LFTR) and I'm very impressed, I don't 
> believe nearly enough is being done in this area. With all respect 
> to Keith Henson I think this is much more likely to provide our energy 
> needs than space based solar. I think this is what fusion wanted to 
> be, certainly it's better than conventional nuclear fission. Consider 
> the advantages:

Thanks for sharing what you found.  This was on my list of things to 
look into in more detail.  If you have some useful links then please 
share them.  

I agree that this is a much more immediate energy solution than space 
based solar, at least SBSP of any design I am familiar with.  The first 
problem with SBSP is the huge mass all the mirrors and collectors 
represent and the high cost of launch.   The second is that you have no 
way to do all the assembly and maintenance required at GEO.  Doing it 
with astronauts is a non-starter.  We would need a lot better space 
robotics than we have.   Of course you could mine near earth asteroids 
first for much of the needed material and volatiles without hauling so 
much mass up the gravity well.  Which we should do anyway including for 
rare earths and precious metals.  But that is a different topic.
>
> *Thorium is much more common than Uranium, almost twice as common as 
> Tin in fact. And Thorium is easier to extract from its ore than Uranium.
>
Yes.  I have heard we have 10.000 years at current energy needs of the 
stuff.
> *A Thorium reactor burns up all the Thorium in it so at current usage 
> that element could supply our energy needs for many thousands, perhaps 
> millions of years; A conventional light water reactor only burns .7% 
> of the Uranium in it.
>
Not millions but thousands.
> * To burn the remaining 99.3% of Uranium you'd have to use a exotic 
> fast neutron breeder reactor, Thorium reactors use slow neutrons and 
> so are inherently more stable because you have much more time to react 
> if something goes wrong. Also breeders produce massive amounts of 
> Plutonium which is a bad thing if you're worried about people making 
> bombs. Thorium produces an insignificant amount of Plutonium.
>
> * Thorium does produce Uranium 233 and theoretically you could make a 
> bomb out of that, but it would be contaminated with Uranium 232 which 
> is a powerful gamma ray emitter which would make it suicidal to work 
> with unless extraordinary precautions were taken, and even then the 
> unexploded bomb would be so radioactive it would give away its 
> presents if you tried to hide it, destroy its electronic firing 
> circuits and degrade its chemical explosives. For these reasons even 
> after 65 years nobody has even tried to make bomb out of Uranium 233.
>
I am so much more concerned with resolving the looming energy crisis 
than with proliferation but nice to know.

> *A Thorium reactor only produces about 1% as much waste as a 
> conventional reactor and the stuff it does make is not as nasty, after 
> about 5 years 87% of it would be safe and the remaining 13% in 300 
> years; a conventional reactor would take 100,000 years. 
>
YAY.

> *A Thorium reactor has an inherent safety feature, the fuel is in 
> liquid form (Thorium dissolved in un-corrosive molten Fluoride salts) 
> so if for whatever reason things get too hot the liquid expands and so 
> the fuel gets less dense and the reaction slows down.
>
Nice.

> *There is yet another fail safe device. At the bottom of the reactor 
> is something called a "freeze plug", fans blow on it to freeze it 
> solid, if things get too hot the plug melts and the liquid drains out 
> into a holding tank and the reaction stops; also if all electronic 
> controls die due to a loss of electrical power the fans will stop the 
> plug will melt and the reaction will stop.
>
> *Thorium reactors work at much higher temperatures than conventional 
> reactors so you have better energy efficiency; in fact they are so hot 
> the waste heat could be used to desalinate sea water or generate 
> hydrogen fuel from water.
>
Interesting.  I was about about to ask what the comparative energy yield 
was and the comparative price per GW.

> * Although the liquid Fluoride salt is very hot it is not under 
> pressure so that makes the plumbing of the thing much easier, and even 
> if you did get a leak it would not be the utter disaster it would be 
> in a conventional reactor; that is also why the containment building 
> in common light water reactors need to be so much larger than the 
> reactor itself. With Thorium nothing is under pressure and there is no 
> danger of a disastrous phase change so the expensive containment 
> building can be made much more compact. 
>
YAY.  That lowers cost.  

> If you're interested in this technology this might be a good place to 
> start:
>
> http://blogs.howstuffworks.com/2009/12/01/how-a-liquid-fluoride-thorium-reactor-lftr-works/

Thanks again!

- samantha


From sjatkins at mac.com  Fri Jul  9 00:43:32 2010
From: sjatkins at mac.com (samantha)
Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2010 17:43:32 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Belief in maths
In-Reply-To: <1278561967.7801.674.camel@desktop-linux>
References: <mailman.1047.1278477872.10820.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<467131.17120.qm@web114415.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<COL112-W1215E4E93211F3EE4693149DB30@phx.gbl>
	<1278561967.7801.674.camel@desktop-linux>
Message-ID: <4C3670B4.1050805@mac.com>

Fred C. Moulton wrote:
> On Wed, 2010-07-07 at 07:05 -0400, darren shawn greer wrote:
>   
>>  
>> It would be much more logical for Christopher Hitchins and Richard
>> Dawkins to simply say, I don't know. 
>>     
>
> It should be pointed out that Dawkins does not say he has absolute
> knowledge.  He has a nuanced view which is summarized in chapter 2 of
> his book The God Delusion.  It is not an absolutist view.  
>
> I have read more writings and listened to more lectures by Dawkins than
> I have Hitchens thus I am not going to comment on Hitchens.
>
> What I will suggest is that if people want to be taken seriously they
> avoid giving the implication that they think atheists as a group have an
> absolutist position on this matter.  If a particular individual has an
> absolutist view then please provide a citation when criticizing that
> person.
>   
The theologies that posit a logically impossible god I have an 
absolutist position on as these are on their face absurd and can never 
ever be true.  I have no absolute position on whether there is an 
intelligent being powerful enough to create entire universes and fiddle 
with them at whatever level it will.  Indeed I have a pretty strong 
belief that such a being is in fact possible.   So there may well be one 
already somewhere is space-time or outside this space-time.    However, 
I have no evidence that one exists and is behind this universe and 
remotely cares where you or I believe such to be the case.  

- samantha
> And there is a helpful heuristic to use when considering statements
> which contain references to gods or creators; replace the term in
> question with "the footrest at home which is a pink invisible elephant
> wearing a yellow tutu and having a mass of 100 suns".  Thus the
> statement "You can not disprove the existence of some undefined and
> vague creator" becomes "You can not disprove the existence of the
> footrest at home which is a pink invisible elephant wearing a yellow
> tutu and having a mass of 100 suns".  Since it is a heuristic it might
> not be applicable in every circumstance however it is often useful in
> demonstrating the level of BS of which much of the talk about gods and
> creators consists.
>
> Fred
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>   

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100708/c9f1078f/attachment.html>

From sjatkins at mac.com  Fri Jul  9 00:44:29 2010
From: sjatkins at mac.com (samantha)
Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2010 17:44:29 -0700
Subject: [ExI] medical marijuana
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikL8xkBFUS0BAEgj0wp2P4d4_3YKHo6NegoXJbN@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3674DAB8B4C44232AD1E8CEAD6949F08@spike>
	<AANLkTin-sZcVn1JEafZczCY36nOTMXIrZBHWy4rynBEM@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimZwRzifg8bj9HHF06bZ_yci9-LBRRxn5NwX2k4@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikdSwVohue1oqYZytY7YxVBc8pEtZjEgUxhM2If@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikL8xkBFUS0BAEgj0wp2P4d4_3YKHo6NegoXJbN@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4C3670ED.4030103@mac.com>

BillK wrote:
> On 7/7/10, Ryan Rawson  wrote:
>   
>> The estimates are that the state of CA would get $1 billion/year from
>>  taxing generally legal cannabis.  It would be regulated like alcohol
>>  and tobacco.
>>
>>
>>     
>
> Agreed, but how much should be deducted for the cost of collateral damages?
>
>
> Another point occurs to me. If California is trying to persuade the
> Feds to give them multi-billion dollar bailouts to cover their budget
> deficits, it is probably not a good idea to raise money by breaking
> federal laws.
>
>   
Tell the Fed to keep its money and legalize pot.  Better all around.

- s

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100708/de28f04c/attachment.html>

From natasha at natasha.cc  Fri Jul  9 00:57:43 2010
From: natasha at natasha.cc (natasha at natasha.cc)
Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2010 20:57:43 -0400
Subject: [ExI] NEWS: Cat's Recovery
In-Reply-To: <4C366C7C.3020304@mac.com>
References: <mailman.1030.1278386441.10820.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<348701.85627.qm@web114406.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<AANLkTinnmG8JEnpSlDmoABZhknPEgsxQxAvgAGmJwZzg@mail.gmail.com>
	<C178C1E0-E8A4-41F1-901E-15B57875388E@bellsouth.net>
	<AANLkTikWmNEWZVvtWeSWktwBRwbe1W9fCHLzr_8gH5RT@mail.gmail.com>
	<15544F8B-EF77-45E8-8CF5-AE7BD2583DBF@bellsouth.net>
	<COL112-W4560EEC7C32C0585E3D8639DB40@phx.gbl>
	<1278613589.7801.751.camel@desktop-linux>
	<20100708165328.5m13di6cbo40osww@webmail.natasha.cc>
	<4C366C7C.3020304@mac.com>
Message-ID: <20100708205743.5u9fuf2hwwkwckws@webmail.natasha.cc>

Quoting samantha <sjatkins at mac.com>:

> natasha at natasha.cc wrote:
>> http://www.cnn.com/2010/TECH/innovation/07/08/cat.bionic.feet/index.html?hpt=C2 For cat   
>> fans.
>
> Cool.  But those back feet don't look worth a damn for fighting,
> climbing trees or even scratching with.  And they are simple
> prosthetics rather than bionics.  But I am very happy for the cat.

At least it is not Schr?dinger's cat. ;

Bty, the legs are designed for skin and fur to grow over them, which  
is nice.  And, yes, the cat will have to stay indoors.

Natasha





From kanzure at gmail.com  Thu Jul  8 23:56:57 2010
From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop)
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2010 18:56:57 -0500
Subject: [ExI] President's Commission on Bioethics write-in
Message-ID: <AANLkTinNCwig4SSaUH3EpwcIuEh7wf0Up6p55rwucz5n@mail.gmail.com>

Hey all,

Today, bioethics.gov began holding talks about synthetic biology and
bioethics. This committee is very much reformed since the last committee
under the previous administration. There are videos being posted on the
site, and transcripts that they typed (however, I found their transcriber to
be.. not good, so I did it myself and posted to the diybio mailing list).

The topics of synthetic biology and bioethics are dear and critical to the
transhumanism community. Interestingly enough there was a transhumanist who
spoke to the committee today. Through the DIYbio community and garage
biotech activists, I am organizing a write-in to info at bioethics.gov -- of
one nature or another. I think that there's a non-neglible probability that
something we say as a community will be heard, at least at the Bioethics
Committee level.

So here is where I explain the situation:

http://groups.google.com/group/diybio/browse_frm/thread/7dad27a5b3810f84

Now then: if something were to make its way up to the Bioethics Committee,
and then to the President of the United States, what would you say? In
particular about biotechnology, innovation, synthetic biology, garage
biotechnology, transhumanism, the ethics of human enhancement?

"People?s freedom to innovate technologically is highly valuable, even
critical, to humanity. This implies several imperatives when restrictive
measures are proposed: Assess risks and opportunities according to available
science, not popular perception.  Account for both the costs of the
restrictions themselves, and those of opportunities foregone.  Favor
measures that are proportionate to the probability and magnitude of impacts,
and that have a high expectation value.  Protect people?s freedom to
experiment, innovate, and progress."

- Bryan
http://heybryan.org/
1 512 203 0507
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100708/6ed64cb9/attachment.html>

From brentn at freeshell.org  Fri Jul  9 00:50:17 2010
From: brentn at freeshell.org (Brent Neal)
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2010 20:50:17 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Could Thorium solve our energy problem?
In-Reply-To: <4C366F25.5000101@mac.com>
References: <4D8D0CDA-1A5A-473B-B42D-241F84D85D6C@bellsouth.net>
	<4C366F25.5000101@mac.com>
Message-ID: <2BD7AB01-D5F4-45BD-94A6-C45BBD3071E8@freeshell.org>


On 8 Jul, 2010, at 20:36, samantha wrote:

> John Clark wrote:
>> I've been reading about Thorium reactors, in particular Liquid Fluoride Thorium Reactors (LFTR) and I'm very impressed, I don't believe nearly enough is being done in this area. With all respect to Keith Henson I think this is much more likely to provide our energy needs than space based solar. I think this is what fusion wanted to be, certainly it's better than conventional nuclear fission. Consider the advantages:
> 
> Thanks for sharing what you found.  This was on my list of things to look into in more detail.  If you have some useful links then please share them.  
> I agree that this is a much more immediate energy solution than space based solar, at least SBSP of any design I am familiar with.  The first problem with SBSP is the huge mass all the mirrors and collectors represent and the high cost of launch.   The second is that you have no way to do all the assembly and maintenance required at GEO.  Doing it with astronauts is a non-starter.  We would need a lot better space robotics than we have.   Of course you could mine near earth asteroids first for much of the needed material and volatiles without hauling so much mass up the gravity well.  Which we should do anyway including for rare earths and precious metals.  But that is a different topic.
>> 
>> *Thorium is much more common than Uranium, almost twice as common as Tin in fact. And Thorium is easier to extract from its ore than Uranium.
>> 
> Yes.  I have heard we have 10.000 years at current energy needs of the stuff.
>> *A Thorium reactor burns up all the Thorium in it so at current usage that element could supply our energy needs for many thousands, perhaps millions of years; A conventional light water reactor only burns .7% of the Uranium in it.
>> 
> Not millions but thousands.
>> 

Actually, less than a thousand.

I base this on a calculation I did for a presentation on sustainable energy for the layperson that I recently gave.

The relevant data are:
4.3 Mton world thorium reserves (source: OECD)
Energy density: 80TJ / ton thorium (estimate based on conversion to U233 via slow neutrons)
World energy consumption (2006): 498 EJ (source: EIA, IAEA, OECD)
World energy annual growth rate (computed from 1980-2006): 1.8%

The calculation of when the cumulative energy usage exceeds the energy available in the world's reserves of thorium is left as an exercise to the reader. Please note that you have to include the efficiency of a Carnot engine in the calculation for full marks. :)

B



--
Brent Neal, Ph.D.
http://brentn.freeshell.org
<brentn at freeshell.org>








From msd001 at gmail.com  Fri Jul  9 02:47:29 2010
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2010 22:47:29 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Belief in maths (was mind body dualism).
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimugAham0AmnN94IiuRb8Q5T0yZd1mn4-2i1_Yj@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1030.1278386441.10820.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<348701.85627.qm@web114406.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<AANLkTinnmG8JEnpSlDmoABZhknPEgsxQxAvgAGmJwZzg@mail.gmail.com>
	<C178C1E0-E8A4-41F1-901E-15B57875388E@bellsouth.net>
	<AANLkTikWmNEWZVvtWeSWktwBRwbe1W9fCHLzr_8gH5RT@mail.gmail.com>
	<15544F8B-EF77-45E8-8CF5-AE7BD2583DBF@bellsouth.net>
	<AANLkTimugAham0AmnN94IiuRb8Q5T0yZd1mn4-2i1_Yj@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTilxoO3Rr5mUXY7hdloORr-F6tavnnkQhSqGJUmk@mail.gmail.com>

2010/7/8 Robert Picone <rpicone at gmail.com>:
> At 1/2^98 (or 1 in 317 billion billion billion, (317 octillion?)), the odds
> of the next flip killing the observer are much much greater than the odds of
> it being a series of fair flips, the odds of any event that has ever
> occurred in the history of the universe reoccurring are much much greater
> than the chances of it being a series of fair coin flips.. ?Even though the
> chance is indeed nonzero, as with many other elements of this discussion,
> there is no reasonable reason to treat it any different than if it were
> zero.

how many consecutive fair flips does it take to make you suspicious?
three, five, 10?

Suppose the phenomenon is a sun dog on a spring morning.  How many
times do you have to see one before you realize what is happening?
What if you have no knowledge of the refractive index of water vapor
in the earth's atmosphere - what do you think is happening without
this crucial piece of information?  I think there are more phenomenon
in this category than in the obvious fair coin category.  I am curious
how the smart people on this list reflect on their own means of
knowing the truths they so reasonably believe  (or conversely how to
treat doubts so small that they are no different from not existing)

But maybe this is the minutiae of how a brain works and can't easily
be examined without feedback destroying the observation?



From msd001 at gmail.com  Fri Jul  9 02:51:45 2010
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2010 22:51:45 -0400
Subject: [ExI] proton measurement upset
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTilfoSLnwRxdha73Co615C-ZgktAvC32Qw7SzlUD@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4C35F1F6.5050701@satx.rr.com>
	<296108.21515.qm@web81508.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<AANLkTilfoSLnwRxdha73Co615C-ZgktAvC32Qw7SzlUD@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTiksiiQWb0rRKfy6IhHaDbT_lYTnKMrKuQvKY6qK@mail.gmail.com>

2010/7/8 Jeff Davis <jrd1415 at gmail.com>

> So you see, Gregory, everything is alright.  Theories come and go.  It's
> the way of things.  Not to worry.  Tomorrow we'll have a little ceremony and
> bury the old theory in the backyard, right next to Nasa's pre-eminence, and
> the US Constitution.  Now now, don't cry.
>
>
I expected we'd bury the old theory on the solar system object formerly
known as planet Pluto.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100708/e04beaba/attachment.html>

From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Fri Jul  9 02:55:13 2010
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2010 19:55:13 -0700
Subject: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 82, Issue 13
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1095.1278637323.10820.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.1095.1278637323.10820.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinXQos0f2t0CmH0dV91-sv9ihrIZEUPaosvLVjY@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 6:02 PM,  John Clark <jonkc at bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
> I've been reading about Thorium reactors, in particular Liquid Fluoride Thorium Reactors (LFTR) and I'm very impressed, I don't believe nearly enough is being done in this area. With all respect to Keith Henson I think this is much more likely to provide our energy needs than space based solar.

You are way out of date.  I finally came to a solution that would get
the cost of SBSP down to around two cents per kWh with a front end
investment in transportation around $100 B ($60 B in lasers).  Then
one of the people who was helping me with the SBSP analysis told me
about a project that looks like it will generate power at just over a
penny a kWh *and* the front end investment is under 1% of the SBSP
front end.  The principal is Ed Kelly and if you Google on that name
and Transmeta you will get the right guy.

It will go public sometime in August.

Near as I can tell no other energy proposals have a chance.

I am not particularly happy about it, but I am on record as saying I
would support any energy project that looked better than what I was
working on.  Not going into space closes off a lot of opportunities
but it probably doesn't matter.  Because of the singularity I don't
see humans being in charge beyond mid century anyway.

Keith



From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Fri Jul  9 03:09:05 2010
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2010 20:09:05 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Could Thorium solve our energy problem?
Message-ID: <AANLkTinLbbJScERVqWjtc1Q9WfpkZksjze9O-MtuvL4w@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 6:02 PM,  samantha <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:

[sorry for not fixing the subject on the previous reply]

> I agree that this is a much more immediate energy solution than space
> based solar, at least SBSP of any design I am familiar with. ?The first
> problem with SBSP is the huge mass all the mirrors and collectors
> represent and the high cost of launch.

To put numbers on it, for two cent power and a ten year payback, the
cost limit is around $1600/kW  (80,000 hr at 2 cents per kWh).

Though people have been more optimistic, the general consensus is that
5kg/kWh is reasonable.  so if parts and ground rectenna cost $1100/kW,
then the transport cost can't be more than $100/kg.  That's a 200 to
one reduction from current cost.  It's doable (I think) with something
like a Skylon to the point you run out of atmosphere and laser heated
hydrogen from there on up to LEO and a second stage also using laser
heated hydrogen from LEO to GEO.  It does take some $60 B of lasers.

> The second is that you have no
> way to do all the assembly and maintenance required at GEO. ?Doing it
> with astronauts is a non-starter. ?We would need a lot better space
> robotics than we have.

Not actually.  Supporting 1000 people at GEO to do assembly takes
around 1% of the mass flow to build power satellites.  But it doesn't
matter.

Keith



From jonkc at bellsouth.net  Fri Jul  9 04:20:45 2010
From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John Clark)
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2010 00:20:45 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Belief in maths (was mind body dualism).
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTilxoO3Rr5mUXY7hdloORr-F6tavnnkQhSqGJUmk@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1030.1278386441.10820.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<348701.85627.qm@web114406.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<AANLkTinnmG8JEnpSlDmoABZhknPEgsxQxAvgAGmJwZzg@mail.gmail.com>
	<C178C1E0-E8A4-41F1-901E-15B57875388E@bellsouth.net>
	<AANLkTikWmNEWZVvtWeSWktwBRwbe1W9fCHLzr_8gH5RT@mail.gmail.com>
	<15544F8B-EF77-45E8-8CF5-AE7BD2583DBF@bellsouth.net>
	<AANLkTimugAham0AmnN94IiuRb8Q5T0yZd1mn4-2i1_Yj@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTilxoO3Rr5mUXY7hdloORr-F6tavnnkQhSqGJUmk@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <818D78AE-9B06-40BF-A3D5-628C99FF5190@bellsouth.net>

On Jul 8, 2010, at 10:47 PM, Mike Dougherty wrote:
> 
> how many consecutive fair flips does it take to make you suspicious?

42

> three, five, 10?

Actually, assuming I knew nothing else about the coin, each time it came up heads my suspicion would double. However if I was allowed to examine the coin and learned: 

1) That the coin did actually have a tail side.
2) There were no unusual unsymmetrical aspects in the shape, weight distribution or magnetic attraction in the coin.

Then my suspicion would decrease. It would decrease even more if I got a professional stage magician to observe the coin flips with me.

  John K Clark  


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100709/a9e0846f/attachment.html>

From jonkc at bellsouth.net  Fri Jul  9 03:56:44 2010
From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John Clark)
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2010 23:56:44 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Could Thorium solve our energy problem?
In-Reply-To: <2BD7AB01-D5F4-45BD-94A6-C45BBD3071E8@freeshell.org>
References: <4D8D0CDA-1A5A-473B-B42D-241F84D85D6C@bellsouth.net>
	<4C366F25.5000101@mac.com>
	<2BD7AB01-D5F4-45BD-94A6-C45BBD3071E8@freeshell.org>
Message-ID: <63BD617A-A5B2-42D4-A270-4A2E1A70A4A5@bellsouth.net>

On Jul 8, 2010, at 8:50 PM, Brent Neal wrote:

> The relevant data are: 4.3 Mton world thorium reserves (source: OECD)

I don't believe that figure, if true Thorium would be one of the rarest elements in the Earth's crust when in reality it is nearly twice as common as tin. They must be using some convoluted meaning for of the word "reserves", hell the government has about 3500 tons of pure thorium they acquired during the Manhattan Project that they haven't touched in more than half a century because they think they have no use for it; even though each POUND of thorium has the energy equivalent of 1400 TONS of coal. No I think at current energy use we'd be good for a few million years, and we've already discovered Thorium deposits on the Moon and Mars.

 John K Clark

 



-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100708/f30e47a9/attachment.html>

From max at maxmore.com  Fri Jul  9 04:17:21 2010
From: max at maxmore.com (Max More)
Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2010 23:17:21 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Could Thorium solve our energy problem?
Message-ID: <201007090444.o694iCVw029847@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

Brent: Am I missing something in what you say? It seems that you are 
taking the *current* world thorium reserves and then figuring out how 
long they would last. Even then, you get almost a thousand years of 
supply. But obviously the current reserves would be replenished and 
added to once there was actually a demand for thorium. It make no 
sense to take the current relatively stock -- which is only a tiny 
fraction of what we could extract -- and then say it won't last long, 
while ignoring new supplies. Yet that's what you *seem* to be saying. 
Please correct this impression if I'm wrong.

Max

>Actually, less than a thousand.
>
>I base this on a calculation I did for a presentation on sustainable 
>energy for the layperson that I recently gave.
>
>The relevant data are:
>4.3 Mton world thorium reserves (source: OECD)
>Energy density: 80TJ / ton thorium (estimate based on conversion to 
>U233 via slow neutrons) World energy consumption (2006): 498 EJ 
>(source: EIA, IAEA, OECD) World energy annual growth rate (computed 
>from 1980-2006): 1.8%
>
>The calculation of when the cumulative energy usage exceeds the 
>energy available in the world's reserves of thorium is left as an 
>exercise to the reader. Please note that you have to include the 
>efficiency of a Carnot engine in the calculation for full marks. :)




From jonkc at bellsouth.net  Fri Jul  9 04:39:52 2010
From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John Clark)
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2010 00:39:52 -0400
Subject: [ExI] proton measurement upset
In-Reply-To: <296108.21515.qm@web81508.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <296108.21515.qm@web81508.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <184E3EC1-5029-4AA4-90C2-B429626DA8CC@bellsouth.net>

On Jul 8, 2010, at 3:04 PM, Gregory Jones wrote:

> A touch smaller?  4% is huuuge. Did they mean 4 parts per billion? 

The old figure for the radius of a proton was 0.8768 femtometers, the new figure is 0.8418 femtometers. That's about 4%. Maybe they're wrong but it's not junk science, it was in Nature and that's about as good as it gets.

 John K Clark 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100709/cdd841e9/attachment.html>

From jonkc at bellsouth.net  Fri Jul  9 05:16:42 2010
From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John Clark)
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2010 01:16:42 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Could Thorium solve our energy problem?
In-Reply-To: <201007090444.o694iCVw029847@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <201007090444.o694iCVw029847@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <E746FB57-CB17-4FF8-83DF-4BAFC1187896@bellsouth.net>

The Lemhi Pass on the Idaho-Montana border has the highest quality Thorium deposits known in the USA; one ton of ore can produce 1,200 pounds of thorium oxide, not much mining is going on though because Thorium is not used for much now. There are probably even richer deposits but nobody has a reason to go looking for them.

 John K Clark

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100709/694e862b/attachment.html>

From thespike at satx.rr.com  Fri Jul  9 04:53:46 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2010 23:53:46 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Ed Kelly and Transmeta
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinXQos0f2t0CmH0dV91-sv9ihrIZEUPaosvLVjY@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1095.1278637323.10820.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<AANLkTinXQos0f2t0CmH0dV91-sv9ihrIZEUPaosvLVjY@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4C36AB5A.6090805@satx.rr.com>

On 7/8/2010 9:55 PM, Keith Henson wrote:

> a project that looks like it will generate power at just over a
> penny a kWh*and*  the front end investment is under 1% of the SBSP
> front end.  The principal is Ed Kelly and if you Google on that name
> and Transmeta you will get the right guy.
>
> It will go public sometime in August.

I got the right company but no obvious hints of fabulous new power 
generation sources. Can you be more direct, or is this totally embargoed 
at the moment?

Damien Broderick


From pharos at gmail.com  Fri Jul  9 08:53:06 2010
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2010 09:53:06 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Ed Kelly and Transmeta
In-Reply-To: <4C36AB5A.6090805@satx.rr.com>
References: <mailman.1095.1278637323.10820.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<AANLkTinXQos0f2t0CmH0dV91-sv9ihrIZEUPaosvLVjY@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C36AB5A.6090805@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTilUayLJLqqBDLE5qd9hiKNUH4Tn7NyX1VbHMfHP@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/9/10, Damien Broderick wrote:
> On 7/8/2010 9:55 PM, Keith Henson wrote:
> > a project that looks like it will generate power at just over a
> > penny a kWh*and*  the front end investment is under 1% of the SBSP
> > front end.  The principal is Ed Kelly and if you Google on that name
> > and Transmeta you will get the right guy.
> > It will go public sometime in August.
> >
>
>  I got the right company but no obvious hints of fabulous new power
> generation sources. Can you be more direct, or is this totally embargoed at
> the moment?
>
>

Transmeta was a cpu manufacturing startup and Ed Kelly left in 2001
after management changes.

I think it is a bit unfair for Keith to call someone "way out of date"
when he is referring to a secret project unknown even to Google. By
that standard almost the whole world is 'way out of date' on every
secret project.

I am also doubtful about how much weight to place on secret blue-sky
projects that are virtually just a few Excel spreadsheets and some
PowerPoint slides. Computers are full of these proposals that will
never enter the real world. I would wait and see whether this new tech
ever gets off the ground before relying on it too much.


BillK


From brentn at freeshell.org  Fri Jul  9 10:40:30 2010
From: brentn at freeshell.org (Brent Neal)
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2010 06:40:30 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Could Thorium solve our energy problem?
In-Reply-To: <201007090444.o694iCVw029847@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <201007090444.o694iCVw029847@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <CBEBB0E1-0E6D-4C27-A458-B61327DE29CF@freeshell.org>


On 9 Jul, 2010, at 0:17, Max More wrote:

> Brent: Am I missing something in what you say? It seems that you are taking the *current* world thorium reserves and then figuring out how long they would last. Even then, you get almost a thousand years of supply. But obviously the current reserves would be replenished and added to once there was actually a demand for thorium. It make no sense to take the current relatively stock -- which is only a tiny fraction of what we could extract -- and then say it won't last long, while ignoring new supplies. Yet that's what you *seem* to be saying. Please correct this impression if I'm wrong.
> 
> Max


The OECD reserve number, according to their notes, is an estimate of the amount of thorium in ores that are potentially accessible via mining. There is, of course, a lot more thorium in the crust that even given an optimistic extrapolation of improvement in mining technology will not be economically feasible to recover - think gold in seawater type of concentrations. Barring nanoassemblers that sift through volcanic dust recovering single thorium atoms, its very unlikely that we can tap that for energy.

The real issue is that, even if you double the figure of the reserves, you don't double the time to depletion. If you put the same spreadsheet together that I did, then you can dick around with the "reserves" number and see how relatively insensitive the time to depletion is to even fairly large changes in that number. Energy is wealth, and if we are going to continue to increase energy demand per capita (and note that I'm not even talking about population growth, which I assume optimistically to level out after 2050), then that 1.8% CAGR becomes a huge burden. 

John's suggestion of mining thorium on the moon is a much better solution, IMO. We need to break the constraints placed on us by limiting ourselves to the crust of the Earth. Whether that's lunar mining or solar power satellites, that's the right solution. 

Please understand that I'm not bashing the idea of molten salt reactors on the thorium cycle. I have defended those vociferously against both so-called "greens" who wet their pants at the mere mention of nuclear power and the right wing neo-con set who believe that if GE and Westinghouse got their LWR designs blessed by the government, then the holy market has spoken and no more needs to be said. :P

B

--
Brent Neal, Ph.D.
http://brentn.freeshell.org
<brentn at freeshell.org>








From cetico.iconoclasta at gmail.com  Fri Jul  9 12:03:01 2010
From: cetico.iconoclasta at gmail.com (Henrique Moraes Machado (CI))
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2010 09:03:01 -0300
Subject: [ExI] Could Thorium solve our energy problem?
References: <4D8D0CDA-1A5A-473B-B42D-241F84D85D6C@bellsouth.net><4C366F25.5000101@mac.com>
	<2BD7AB01-D5F4-45BD-94A6-C45BBD3071E8@freeshell.org>
Message-ID: <142f01cb1f5e$afff92a0$fd00a8c0@cpdhemm>

<Brent Neal, Ph.D.>
> Actually, less than a thousand.
> I base this on a calculation I did for a presentation on sustainable 
> energy for the layperson that I recently gave.
> The relevant data are:
> 4.3 Mton world thorium reserves (source: OECD)
> Energy density: 80TJ / ton thorium (estimate based on conversion to U233 
> via slow neutrons)
> World energy consumption (2006): 498 EJ (source: EIA, IAEA, OECD)
> World energy annual growth rate (computed from 1980-2006): 1.8%
> The calculation of when the cumulative energy usage exceeds the energy 
> available in the world's reserves of thorium is left as an exercise to the 
> reader. Please note that you have to include the efficiency of a Carnot 
> engine in the calculation for full marks. :)
</Brent Neal, Ph.D.>



A thousand, ten thousand, a million. Even a couple hundred years would buy 
more than enough time to develop a usable fusion solution.



From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Fri Jul  9 12:51:41 2010
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2010 14:51:41 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Could Thorium solve our energy problem?
In-Reply-To: <142f01cb1f5e$afff92a0$fd00a8c0@cpdhemm>
References: <4D8D0CDA-1A5A-473B-B42D-241F84D85D6C@bellsouth.net>
	<4C366F25.5000101@mac.com>
	<2BD7AB01-D5F4-45BD-94A6-C45BBD3071E8@freeshell.org>
	<142f01cb1f5e$afff92a0$fd00a8c0@cpdhemm>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinlAp5Fgzo1Td6lHBpzpeH_xxCtse7QIyKdoEBC@mail.gmail.com>

On 9 July 2010 14:03, Henrique Moraes Machado (CI)
<cetico.iconoclasta at gmail.com> wrote:
> A thousand, ten thousand, a million. Even a couple hundred years would buy
> more than enough time to develop a usable fusion solution.

.

I suspect that abundant, cheap energy, even for a limited time, may as
a byproduct make the economics of space-based solar or deep geothermy
change quite significantly.

Or not?

-- 
Stefano Vaj


From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Fri Jul  9 12:41:12 2010
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2010 14:41:12 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Libertarian-spotting field guide
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimHCrYtfp6sq2pNeE54dH7qeh6fMlIMeBT2_O7e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <912945.79061.qm@web27006.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
	<4C2E8C49.2070702@mac.com>
	<AANLkTimHCrYtfp6sq2pNeE54dH7qeh6fMlIMeBT2_O7e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimMQhvXNVYOF9ajswpM_25mF3dOtbHyxDdPgTk9@mail.gmail.com>

On 3 July 2010 07:30, Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:
> Which is precisely my own position: I am against big government and,
> for the same reason, I am against big corporations with
> government-like powers, which become de-facto monopolies by bribing
> big government and lock the marketplace for smaller corporations.

I suspect that on most everyday issues I am inclined to react in
exactly the same fashion to both. The very idea of Internet
censorship, for instance, makes me instantly blinded by rage even for
the most extreme cases.

In more philosophical terms, however, while many Americans may share
the view that the prob is to limit the powers of both big corps and
big governments, I am partial to a more European (Marxian?) approach
where the primary concern as far as the government is concerned is not
so much its legal powers, but rather who is in control of it, how it
is formed, what interests and goals it serves, how it can be if
necessary overthrown by a new one, etc.

This may have to do with cultural traditions originating from the
difference between the American revolution on one side and the French
revolution and European independence wars on the other.

-- 
Stefano Vaj


From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Fri Jul  9 13:50:13 2010
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2010 15:50:13 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: [Exl] Psi and EP
In-Reply-To: <8CCE915A16C77B0-15DC-F1B0@webmail-m052.sysops.aol.com>
References: <8CCE911B1E31982-1F94-1D1B7@webmail-d035.sysops.aol.com>
	<8CCE915A16C77B0-15DC-F1B0@webmail-m052.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTilDfi93W3VWXT47mgQOsRg8jTAwB-lIiBLvRIZR@mail.gmail.com>

2010/7/4  <udend05 at aol.com>:
> Picking up on Keith's point about psi phenomena and evolutionary psychology
> - are there other instances of behaviours/traits/abilities developed
> throughout our history that are as shadowy as so-called paranormal
> phenomena?

"Weak" psi, i.e., that which does not necessarily involve
faster-than-light signalling or other esoteric stuff, may well be
described as including all adaptative behaviours the reasons or
purposes or value thereof are not immediately evident to those
adopting them. See under "acting on hunches", for instance.

All that is not very shadowy, and is in everyday experience that some
are better than others, e.g., in immediate, unconscious extrapolation
of insufficient data in view of the best possible real-time reaction.

As can be expected, such ability is certainly subject to Darwinian
pressures, and this probably explains our not-so-bad performance in
this respect in comparison with other computing devices which have
been developed with other tasks in mind.

-- 
Stefano Vaj


From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Fri Jul  9 15:11:37 2010
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2010 08:11:37 -0700
Subject: [ExI] SBSP was Ed Kelly and Transmeta
Message-ID: <AANLkTinIuEDI0XmVzUNtju9sReRQ0YzTflJQEwgrmW_T@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 5:00 AM,  BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:

> I think it is a bit unfair for Keith to call someone "way out of date"
> when he is referring to a secret project unknown even to Google.

Sorry, I have been working on this for 6 months now.  I thought I had
mentioned abandoning space based solar power on this list, but looking
back at the archives, I just quit talking about it.

>By
> that standard almost the whole world is 'way out of date' on every
> secret project.
>
> I am also doubtful about how much weight to place on secret blue-sky
> projects that are virtually just a few Excel spreadsheets and some
> PowerPoint slides. Computers are full of these proposals that will
> never enter the real world. I would wait and see whether this new tech
> ever gets off the ground before relying on it too much.

Point taken.  However, I didn't lightly abandon something I had worked
on for years and finally had a solution that made sense from both the
physics and the economics.

I will be able say more by sometime in August.

Keith


From max at maxmore.com  Fri Jul  9 16:00:54 2010
From: max at maxmore.com (Max More)
Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2010 11:00:54 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Could Thorium solve our energy problem?
Message-ID: <201007091601.o69G16dK016375@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

Thanks for clarifying, Brent.

>The OECD reserve number, according to their notes, is an estimate of 
>the amount of thorium in ores that are potentially accessible via mining.

With the caveat that I haven't looked up how exactly the OECD figures 
(educated guesses, really) what is "potentially accessible", I would 
note that similar numbers for oil reserves have consistently 
underestimated what could be extracted. Those making the calculations 
have failed to fully allow for new technologies and techniques.

Perhaps the OECD has done a better job, but it's more likely that 
they are underestimating the potential to a much *larger* degree, 
since (compared to oil for many decades) there has been little demand 
for thorium. If we were to start using much more thorium, I would bet 
(literally) that those reserve numbers would expand greatly.

Besides, thorium can be well worth using for decades, especially if 
you don't require that it replace practically *all* other energy 
sources. It doesn't have to be a perfect and permanent solution to be 
worth adopting.

Max



-------------------------------------
Max More, Ph.D.
Strategic Philosopher
The Proactionary Project
Extropy Institute Founder
www.maxmore.com
max at maxmore.com
------------------------------------- 



From max at maxmore.com  Fri Jul  9 16:39:59 2010
From: max at maxmore.com (Max More)
Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2010 11:39:59 -0500
Subject: [ExI] New York Times piece on cryonics,
 featuring Robin Hanson &  Peggy
Message-ID: <201007091640.o69Ge75T023636@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

I highly recommend this article on the deep divergence in world view 
between those (like Robin Hanson -- well known to many of us here) 
who want to live indefinitely long, through cryonic suspension if 
necessary, and those (such as his wife Peggy) who do not and don't 
want others to do so either.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/11/magazine/11cryonics-t.html?pagewanted=all

Be sure to read the comments too. Prepare to be frustrated, outraged, 
and puzzled, as well as amused at commentators who raise issues with 
no awareness that cryonics advocates have thought about them long and 
deep for many years.

Max


-------------------------------------
Max More, Ph.D.
Strategic Philosopher
The Proactionary Project
Extropy Institute Founder
www.maxmore.com
max at maxmore.com
------------------------------------- 



From wingcat at pacbell.net  Fri Jul  9 16:26:07 2010
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2010 09:26:07 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Could Thorium solve our energy problem?
In-Reply-To: <142f01cb1f5e$afff92a0$fd00a8c0@cpdhemm>
Message-ID: <258362.25261.qm@web81601.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

--- On Fri, 7/9/10, Henrique Moraes Machado (CI) <cetico.iconoclasta at gmail.com> wrote:
> <Brent Neal, Ph.D.>
> > The relevant data are:
> > 4.3 Mton world thorium reserves (source: OECD)
> > Energy density: 80TJ / ton thorium (estimate based on
> conversion to U233 via slow neutrons)
> > World energy consumption (2006): 498 EJ (source: EIA,
> IAEA, OECD)
> > World energy annual growth rate (computed from
> 1980-2006): 1.8%
> > The calculation of when the cumulative energy usage
> exceeds the energy available in the world's reserves of
> thorium is left as an exercise to the reader. Please note
> that you have to include the efficiency of a Carnot engine
> in the calculation for full marks. :)
> </Brent Neal, Ph.D.>
> 
> A thousand, ten thousand, a million. Even a couple hundred
> years would buy more than enough time to develop a usable
> fusion solution.

Not even one year - at least for full displacement.

4.3 Mtons * 80 TJ/ton = 344 EJ < 498 EJ

And that's without the Carnot engine and other unavoidable
inefficiencies (for instance, you can't simply teleport the
thorium to the reactors, so there's transportation and
extraction costs as well), which could easily reduce the
energy actually obtained to less than 1% of this amount.

Based on that data, the answer to the thread's titular
question appears to be "no".  It could perhaps solve a very
small part of the problem, but apparently not enough to be
worth much investigation.  (Now, if someone could find a way
to get far more than 80 terajoules from a ton of thorium,
that might be of use.)


From wingcat at pacbell.net  Fri Jul  9 16:45:10 2010
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2010 09:45:10 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI]  SBSP
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinLbbJScERVqWjtc1Q9WfpkZksjze9O-MtuvL4w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <877760.99279.qm@web81606.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Actually, check
http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/international/elecprih.html

Current US price for electricity is around 11 cents/kWh.
Granted, that's including taxes et al - but it's not
much better (and often worse) elsewhere, where that
isn't included.

If you could accept 10 cents/kWh - merely competitive
with today's prices (and better than rising prices - an
insulator against current trends, which may be enough
for a 10 year payback), that's an additional $6400/kW,
or almost $1300/kg given your numbers.  $1400/kg to GEO
is still a bit of an improvement on today's numbers,
but not quite as far as $100/kg.

--- On Thu, 7/8/10, Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> wrote:
> From: Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com>
> > I agree that this is a much more immediate energy
> solution than space
> > based solar, at least SBSP of any design I am familiar
> with. ?The first
> > problem with SBSP is the huge mass all the mirrors and
> collectors
> > represent and the high cost of launch.
> 
> To put numbers on it, for two cent power and a ten year
> payback, the
> cost limit is around $1600/kW? (80,000 hr at 2 cents
> per kWh).
> 
> Though people have been more optimistic, the general
> consensus is that
> 5kg/kWh is reasonable.? so if parts and ground
> rectenna cost $1100/kW,
> then the transport cost can't be more than $100/kg.?
> That's a 200 to
> one reduction from current cost.? It's doable (I
> think) with something
> like a Skylon to the point you run out of atmosphere and
> laser heated
> hydrogen from there on up to LEO and a second stage also
> using laser
> heated hydrogen from LEO to GEO.? It does take some
> $60 B of lasers.
> 
> > The second is that you have no
> > way to do all the assembly and maintenance required at
> GEO. ?Doing it
> > with astronauts is a non-starter. ?We would need a
> lot better space
> > robotics than we have.
> 
> Not actually.? Supporting 1000 people at GEO to do
> assembly takes
> around 1% of the mass flow to build power satellites.?
> But it doesn't
> matter.




From jonkc at bellsouth.net  Fri Jul  9 17:25:33 2010
From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John Clark)
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2010 13:25:33 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Could Thorium solve our energy problem?
In-Reply-To: <258362.25261.qm@web81601.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <258362.25261.qm@web81601.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4E0EE09A-C2AE-4D78-B288-1C2AED325376@bellsouth.net>

On Jul 9, 2010, at 12:26 PM, Adrian Tymes wrote:

> 4.3 Mtons * 80 TJ/ton = 344 EJ < 498 EJ

That 4.3 million figure is just plain nuts.

>  Now, if someone could find a way to get far more than 80 terajoules from a ton of thorium,
> that might be of use.

Not difficult as the true figure is 80 terajoules from a KILOGRAM of Thorium not a ton! You were off by a factor of 1000. Incidentally the Hiroshima bomb released about 60 terajoules.

 John K Clark
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100709/317ec522/attachment.html>

From kanzure at gmail.com  Fri Jul  9 20:11:24 2010
From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop)
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2010 15:11:24 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Infrared vision via vitamins (well, not really)
Message-ID: <AANLkTimPEm6QCWNOagSvFYi-6XIANfKf1emFHWfqxztb@mail.gmail.com>

Infrared vision with vitamins
http://www.edkeyes.org/blog/050825.html

"""
Although I've mostly been interested in sensory augmentation by means
of technology, there was an interesting third-hand report of
augmentation through diet and biochemistry. The military during WWII
(there are mentions of both US and British forces) evidently
experimented with putting people on diets that replaced the normal
form of vitamin A with a slightly different chemical, in the hopes
that the red-sensitive photopigment in the retina constructed from it
would be changed to a chemically similar form, present in other
animals, with spectral sensitivity extending into the near infrared.
The idea, of course, was to be able to see signal lights and so forth
that were invisible to enemy soldiers.

I did some quick checking on this, and though I couldn't find any
references to military research, there were some examples in the
regular civilian literature. Yoshikami, Pearlman, and Crescitelli
(Vision Research 9:633-646 1969) did a similar experiment on rats,
putting them on a diet which was deficient in vitamin A and
supplementing it with additions of either vitamin A1 (the normal form)
or A2 (the altered one). No behavioral studies were done, but they did
extract the retinas and perform some spectral analysis, with the
result that there was indeed some alteration of the photopigments,
specifically the addition of a second form with sensitivity shifted
redward by about 20nm.

That study cited Millard and McCann (Journal of Applied Physiology
1:807-810 1949) which was an experiment on humans, albeit with fairly
loose controls on diet. They found that behaviorally the group taking
A2 supplements had slightly improved red sensitivity, but didn't
provide any detailed spectral response curves.

So it seems to be the case that this effect is real, but small: the
best you can hope for is a shift of about 20nm, which is not really
enough to be of military significance or even detectable without
careful testing. Still, it's an interesting "hack" on human
biochemistry.
"""

What wavelength spectrum would you want to get up to- near infrared?
far? There was an article recently about cryptochrome, a protein in
avian retina for sensing magnetic fields. I can think of a few designs
for experiments for improving infrared vision, maybe through directed
evolution of (tethered?) photopigments.

- Bryan
http://heybryan.org/
1 512 203 0507


From rebelwithaclue at gmail.com  Fri Jul  9 20:33:37 2010
From: rebelwithaclue at gmail.com (rebelwithaclue at gmail.com)
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2010 14:33:37 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Infrared vision via vitamins (well, not really)
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimPEm6QCWNOagSvFYi-6XIANfKf1emFHWfqxztb@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTimPEm6QCWNOagSvFYi-6XIANfKf1emFHWfqxztb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimSkOnE1wbIk195Bxm1bjQIqXxcLih0EbTf4WxF@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Folks,

Here's another one. Here's some research that indicates that chlorin e6 eye
drops improves night vision.

http://www.rsc.org/Publishing/Journals/cb/Volume/2007/7/Chlorophylls_help_eyes.asp

...the scientists gave mice a chlorophyll derivative, chlorin e6, to see if
their red vision was improved. Using a technique called electroretinography,
which measures retinal cell responses to a flash of light, the researchers
found that the treated mice showed almost double the response to red light
when compared to non-treated mice. The group also showed that the
chlorin e6was localised in the retina and conclude that the increased
visual
sensitivity is a result of light absorption by the chlorophyll derivative.

Washington is currently performing similar research in people. It is
possible that taking a chlorophyll derivative supplement could improve night
vision, he said.

Cheers,

Kiran
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100709/20eec657/attachment.html>

From jrd1415 at gmail.com  Fri Jul  9 22:22:50 2010
From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis)
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2010 15:22:50 -0700
Subject: [ExI] New York Times piece on cryonics,
	featuring Robin Hanson & 	Peggy
In-Reply-To: <201007091640.o69Ge75T023636@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <201007091640.o69Ge75T023636@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikwbp6tuYqn1EWvi2oThmufvkgLoi4qZg9RHZeD@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 9:39 AM, Max More <max at maxmore.com> wrote:

> Be sure to read the comments too. ...

Great comments.  All the classic objections and attitudes. some
thoughtfulness, good civility, and some bright spots -- #44,  and one
of the best limericks ever, from "mick" on Ibiza,
#48.

Here it is, saved for posterity, slip it into my dewar when I'[m gone:

There was an old widow named Price
Who kept her dead husband on ice
"It's been hard since I lost him,
I'll never defrost him"
Cold comfort, but cheap at the price.

Best, Jeff Davis

 "Everything's hard till you know how to do it."
                      Ray Charles


From dgreer_68 at hotmail.com  Sat Jul 10 00:02:01 2010
From: dgreer_68 at hotmail.com (darren shawn greer)
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2010 20:02:01 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Belief in maths
In-Reply-To: <COL112-W4560EEC7C32C0585E3D8639DB40@phx.gbl>
References: <mailman.1030.1278386441.10820.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>, ,
	<348701.85627.qm@web114406.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>, ,
	<AANLkTinnmG8JEnpSlDmoABZhknPEgsxQxAvgAGmJwZzg@mail.gmail.com>, ,
	<C178C1E0-E8A4-41F1-901E-15B57875388E@bellsouth.net>, ,
	<AANLkTikWmNEWZVvtWeSWktwBRwbe1W9fCHLzr_8gH5RT@mail.gmail.com>, ,
	<15544F8B-EF77-45E8-8CF5-AE7BD2583DBF@bellsouth.net>,
	<COL112-W4560EEC7C32C0585E3D8639DB40@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <COL112-W392B61C55C07F58841058C9DB60@phx.gbl>


> 
> But the arguments are not irrelevant if those arguments are successful
> in getting people to stop holding certain beliefs. There are people who
> ran the Inquisition because of their beliefs. There are people who fly
> planes into buildings because of their beliefs. There are people who
> deny full civil rights to LGBT people because of their beliefs. The
> roles of arguments is to help refine our cognitive space by rejecting
> and/or correcting ideas which can not stand up to rational criticism.
 
 
I agree with you that in today's world the bahaviour of certain groups and individuals is dangerous enough to warrant trying to change their beliefs, or at least question them. At first blush anyway. I was referring to a futuristic world, and the hope that one day we will stop looking for deep-seated meaning outside of what is actually knowable -- ie, an irrational belief in a six-thousand year-old earth that was created by a bored, morally prescriptive creator who got bored one day and decided to "do something." There is a kind of morality explained by descriptive ethics called "territorial morality," which allows individuals and groups to hold whatever beliefs they please, and to practise whatever morals arise based on those beliefs, as long as they don't interfere with the freedom and lifestyles of others choosing to practise different morals based on different beliefs. I like this, and hope that human beings evolve some version of it in a universal social mileau. In the meantime, I guess trying to change the beliefs of others is as good a method an any at containing the fanatics. Though personally, I have never been successful using logic and reason to argue someone out of an illogical and irrational belief system.


Per Ardua Ad Astra
For more info on author Darren Greer visit 
http://darrenshawngreer.blogspot.com



 



From: dgreer_68 at hotmail.com
To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2010 01:10:18 -0400
Subject: Re: [ExI] Belief in maths



> And there is a helpful heuristic to use when considering statements
> which contain references to gods or creators; replace the term in
> question with "the footrest at home which is a pink invisible elephant
> wearing a yellow tutu and having a mass of 100 suns". Thus the
> statement "You can not disprove the existence of some undefined and
> vague creator" becomes "You can not disprove the existence of the
> footrest at home which is a pink invisible elephant wearing a yellow
> tutu and having a mass of 100 suns". Since it is a heuristic it might
> not be applicable in every circumstance however it is often useful in
> demonstrating the level of BS of which much of the talk about gods and
> creators consists. 
 
 
Sure. Why not? It started with Hyercubical Golden Dragons. It could just as easily end with that. The point of that post was my belief that human beings might be better off if we collectively abandon such arguments altogether as irrelevant, unwinnable and ultimately unknowable. Not to mention that they often deteriorate into derision and sarcasm. 



Per Ardua Ad Astra
For more info on author Darren Greer visit 
http://darrenshawngreer.blogspot.com



  


From: jonkc at bellsouth.net
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2010 00:09:06 -0400
To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
Subject: Re: [ExI] Belief in maths (was mind body dualism).



On Jul 7, 2010, at 7:51 PM, Mike Dougherty wrote:
Of course a fair coin is 50/50.  How did we learn this?

>From it's history. If I knew nothing about the coin except that it just produced 99 heads in a row I would say the probability it is a fair coin is greater than zero but very very small. I certainly wouldn't trust it for anything important.


 John K Clark




 		 	   		  
_________________________________________________________________
MSN Dating: Find someone special. Start now.
http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9734384
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100709/f515cdbc/attachment.html>

From msd001 at gmail.com  Sat Jul 10 00:13:35 2010
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2010 20:13:35 -0400
Subject: [ExI] proton measurement upset
In-Reply-To: <184E3EC1-5029-4AA4-90C2-B429626DA8CC@bellsouth.net>
References: <296108.21515.qm@web81508.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<184E3EC1-5029-4AA4-90C2-B429626DA8CC@bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinRh81fevrNulQQdz4RBn_X2bMBK2xHKtF8QFnE@mail.gmail.com>

2010/7/9 John Clark <jonkc at bellsouth.net>:
> On Jul 8, 2010, at 3:04 PM, Gregory Jones wrote:
>
> A touch smaller?? 4% is huuuge.?Did they mean 4 parts per billion?
>
> The old figure for the?radius of a proton was 0.8768 femtometers, the new
> figure is 0.8418 femtometers. That's about 4%. Maybe they're wrong but it's
> not junk science, it was in Nature and that's about as good as it gets.

Bullshit.  Nature is a cult.


I can't hit send without a disclaimer - this is the email equivalent
of failing to keep a straight face when telling an absurd lie. :)



From brentn at freeshell.org  Sat Jul 10 01:51:42 2010
From: brentn at freeshell.org (Brent Neal)
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2010 21:51:42 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Could Thorium solve our energy problem?
In-Reply-To: <201007091601.o69G16dK016375@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <201007091601.o69G16dK016375@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <629C0520-8504-4BB3-BCF2-58305642F7A3@freeshell.org>


On 9 Jul, 2010, at 12:00, Max More wrote:

> Thanks for clarifying, Brent.
> 
>> The OECD reserve number, according to their notes, is an estimate of the amount of thorium in ores that are potentially accessible via mining.
> 
> With the caveat that I haven't looked up how exactly the OECD figures (educated guesses, really) what is "potentially accessible", I would note that similar numbers for oil reserves have consistently underestimated what could be extracted. Those making the calculations have failed to fully allow for new technologies and techniques.
> 
> Perhaps the OECD has done a better job, but it's more likely that they are underestimating the potential to a much *larger* degree, since (compared to oil for many decades) there has been little demand for thorium. If we were to start using much more thorium, I would bet (literally) that those reserve numbers would expand greatly.
> 
> Besides, thorium can be well worth using for decades, especially if you don't require that it replace practically *all* other energy sources. It doesn't have to be a perfect and permanent solution to be worth adopting.
> 



You're still missing the point, though. Even if you triple the number, you're still up against a power law.

And if you heard me say that it wasn't worth it, that certainly wasn't what I intended to convey. I'm very much in favor of MSRs using the thorium cycle. Just not to the exclusion of everything else. :)

B

--
Brent Neal, Ph.D.
http://brentn.freeshell.org
<brentn at freeshell.org>








From brentn at freeshell.org  Sat Jul 10 01:59:35 2010
From: brentn at freeshell.org (Brent Neal)
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2010 21:59:35 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Could Thorium solve our energy problem?
In-Reply-To: <4E0EE09A-C2AE-4D78-B288-1C2AED325376@bellsouth.net>
References: <258362.25261.qm@web81601.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<4E0EE09A-C2AE-4D78-B288-1C2AED325376@bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <6E4FF05E-E034-46A3-9EFC-DF911EAE5D46@freeshell.org>


On 9 Jul, 2010, at 13:25, John Clark wrote:

> On Jul 9, 2010, at 12:26 PM, Adrian Tymes wrote:
> 
>> 4.3 Mtons * 80 TJ/ton = 344 EJ < 498 EJ
> 
> That 4.3 million figure is just plain nuts.
> 

Undoubtedly. But I'm willing to bet, based on oil (the example Max gave earlier) and other mineral resources, that the actual number for energy-return-feasibly recoverable thorium is less than 10x that number.  I'm also skeptical, though I have no hard data (yet) to back this up that we're more accurate than average on thorium since the most fruitful thorium deposits tend to occur in conjunction with other rare earths, which are exceptionally valuable.

Let's get back to orbital mining via robots. There are lots of other elements that should be relatively abundant in the inner solar system, including phosphorus (as apatites), the aforementioned rare earths (neodymium!) and, of course, thorium. :)

B


--
Brent Neal, Ph.D.
http://brentn.freeshell.org
<brentn at freeshell.org>








From jonkc at bellsouth.net  Sat Jul 10 02:50:03 2010
From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John Clark)
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2010 22:50:03 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Could Thorium solve our energy problem?
In-Reply-To: <6E4FF05E-E034-46A3-9EFC-DF911EAE5D46@freeshell.org>
References: <258362.25261.qm@web81601.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<4E0EE09A-C2AE-4D78-B288-1C2AED325376@bellsouth.net>
	<6E4FF05E-E034-46A3-9EFC-DF911EAE5D46@freeshell.org>
Message-ID: <FFFAD849-7F82-4E4A-9867-4F5C76E4D42D@bellsouth.net>

On Jul 9, 2010, at 9:59 PM, Brent Neal wrote:

>> That 4.3 million figure is just plain nuts.
>> 
> Undoubtedly. But I'm willing to bet, based on oil (the example Max gave earlier) and other mineral resources, that the actual number for energy-return-feasibly recoverable thorium is less than 10x that number. 

You say reserves could be 10 times your original figure, that's better but its still ridiculously too small and I'd say the same if you made it 100 times larger; but even if we use your new figure about availability and then correct for your vast underestimate of the amount of energy inherent in Thorium we find that the total amount of energy that element could supply is 10,000 times larger than your original estimate. 

 John K Clark

    

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100709/45e4ca6a/attachment.html>

From brentn at freeshell.org  Sat Jul 10 04:25:11 2010
From: brentn at freeshell.org (Brent Neal)
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2010 00:25:11 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Could Thorium solve our energy problem?
In-Reply-To: <FFFAD849-7F82-4E4A-9867-4F5C76E4D42D@bellsouth.net>
References: <258362.25261.qm@web81601.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<4E0EE09A-C2AE-4D78-B288-1C2AED325376@bellsouth.net>
	<6E4FF05E-E034-46A3-9EFC-DF911EAE5D46@freeshell.org>
	<FFFAD849-7F82-4E4A-9867-4F5C76E4D42D@bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <87B34DFA-5921-4F66-A81B-568F3730C7A1@freeshell.org>


On 9 Jul, 2010, at 22:50, John Clark wrote:

> On Jul 9, 2010, at 9:59 PM, Brent Neal wrote:
> 
>>> That 4.3 million figure is just plain nuts.
>>> 
>> Undoubtedly. But I'm willing to bet, based on oil (the example Max gave earlier) and other mineral resources, that the actual number for energy-return-feasibly recoverable thorium is less than 10x that number. 
> 
> You say reserves could be 10 times your original figure, that's better but its still ridiculously too small and I'd say the same if you made it 100 times larger; but even if we use your new figure about availability and then correct for your vast underestimate of the amount of energy inherent in Thorium we find that the total amount of energy that element could supply is 10,000 times larger than your original estimate. 
> 

I think you are wildly optimistic and haven't done either the research or the math on how much energy is released in U-233 fission. :) But there we go then. 

In a sense, I understand your passion for thorium cycle reactors. Thorium-cycle products are difficult (if not impossible, given the reference MSR design from the 1960s) to weaponize, thorium doesn't require isotopic separation like uranium does, and even better, thorium MSR plants can be built with much less capital than uranium LWRs.  But, you know, you still have to dig the stuff up. Enhanced geothermal, solar thermal/solar PV, etc. still have a good deal of advantage over nuclear of any stripe in that regard.  Thorium is somewhat advantaged in that we've already dug a lot of it up trying to get to the neodymium in the ground. Just because there isn't infinity thorium in the ground to power civilization for a hojillion years doesn't mean its not worth doing.

B



--
Brent Neal, Ph.D.
http://brentn.freeshell.org
<brentn at freeshell.org>








From jonkc at bellsouth.net  Sat Jul 10 05:10:02 2010
From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John Clark)
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2010 01:10:02 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Could Thorium solve our energy problem?
In-Reply-To: <87B34DFA-5921-4F66-A81B-568F3730C7A1@freeshell.org>
References: <258362.25261.qm@web81601.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<4E0EE09A-C2AE-4D78-B288-1C2AED325376@bellsouth.net>
	<6E4FF05E-E034-46A3-9EFC-DF911EAE5D46@freeshell.org>
	<FFFAD849-7F82-4E4A-9867-4F5C76E4D42D@bellsouth.net>
	<87B34DFA-5921-4F66-A81B-568F3730C7A1@freeshell.org>
Message-ID: <E3703DA5-F309-49AB-AF08-6BA97848233A@bellsouth.net>

On Jul 10, 2010, at 12:25 AM, Brent Neal wrote:

> I think you are wildly optimistic and haven't done either the research or the math on how much energy is released in U-233 fission.

Optimism has nothing to do with it, I maintain that it is a FACT that one kilogram of thorium contains at a minimum 200 times as much usable energy as a kilogram of Uranium as used in todays slow neutron reactors. This is true for 2 reasons:

1) A Thorium reactor uses up 100% of the Thorium while the pressurized light water reactors we use today only make use of .7% of the Uranium, the U235 part. And I'm being very generous, most of the time you have to remove the fuel rods long before they've used up all their fuel because neutron bombardment has caused cracks in the solid making further use of them dangerous; a problem a liquid fueled reactor like a Thorium reactor does not have. 

2) A Thorium reactor works at much higher temperatures so has a thermal efficiency of about 50%, while cooler Uranium reactors only get about 30%.

That combined with the fact that Thorium is over 4 times as abundant as Uranium means it could provide at least 800 times as much energy, probably closer to 1200 times.

  John K Clark   


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100710/45183864/attachment.html>

From estropico at gmail.com  Sat Jul 10 07:14:01 2010
From: estropico at gmail.com (estropico)
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2010 08:14:01 +0100
Subject: [ExI] ExtroBritannia: Ben Best on Cryonics: Purpose, History,
	and Problems 	- A Scientific and Cultural Perspective
Message-ID: <AANLkTilVUdgcIZFc5rlcF354hhaA9EZypOVs0CsPafuC@mail.gmail.com>

Cryonics: Purpose, History, and Problems - A Scientific and Cultural Perspective

Ben Best, President of the Cryonics Institute

Date: Friday 23rd July
Time: 6.30pm-8.30pm

Venue: Room 415, Birkbeck College, Torrington Square, London WC1E 7HX

About this talk:

The presentation will begin by outlining the motivation and procedures
for implementing cryonics, touching on social problems. This will be
followed by a brief history of the cryonics movement. Then some of the
technical and scientific challenges will be described. A question
period will follow.

About the speaker:

Ben Best has been President of the Cryonics Institute since 2003 and
has been a cryonics activist since the late 1980s, joining Alcor in
1991. He has written extensively about every aspect of life extension
on his website www.benbest.com

About the venue:

Room 415 is on the fourth floor (via the lift near reception) in the
main Birkbeck College building, in Torrington Square (which is a
pedestrian-only square). Torrington Square is about 10 minutes walk
from either Russell Square or Goodge St tube stations (map:
http://www.bbk.ac.uk/maps )


From sjatkins at mac.com  Sat Jul 10 08:14:20 2010
From: sjatkins at mac.com (samantha)
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2010 01:14:20 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Could Thorium solve our energy problem?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinLbbJScERVqWjtc1Q9WfpkZksjze9O-MtuvL4w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTinLbbJScERVqWjtc1Q9WfpkZksjze9O-MtuvL4w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4C382BDC.2060905@mac.com>

Keith Henson wrote:
> On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 6:02 PM,  samantha <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:
>
> [sorry for not fixing the subject on the previous reply]
>
>   
>> I agree that this is a much more immediate energy solution than space
>> based solar, at least SBSP of any design I am familiar with.  The first
>> problem with SBSP is the huge mass all the mirrors and collectors
>> represent and the high cost of launch.
>>     
>
> To put numbers on it, for two cent power and a ten year payback, the
> cost limit is around $1600/kW  (80,000 hr at 2 cents per kWh).
>   
What do you mean by "two cent power"?  
> Though people have been more optimistic, the general consensus is that
> 5kg/kWh is reasonable.
Can you point me to the work?  Does it add in a precentage of all 
components? 

>   so if parts and ground rectenna cost $1100/kW,
> then the transport cost can't be more than $100/kg.
Ah, thanks.

>   That's a 200 to
> one reduction from current cost.  It's doable (I think) with something
> like a Skylon to the point you run out of atmosphere and laser heated
> hydrogen from there on up to LEO and a second stage also using laser
> heated hydrogen from LEO to GEO.  It does take some $60 B of lasers.
>   

Or perhaps using on of the other non-rocket space launch methods.   Are 
the $60B of lasers amortized into the cost?
>   
>> The second is that you have no
>> way to do all the assembly and maintenance required at GEO.  Doing it
>> with astronauts is a non-starter.  We would need a lot better space
>> robotics than we have.
>>     
>
> Not actually.  Supporting 1000 people at GEO to do assembly takes
> around 1% of the mass flow to build power satellites.  But it doesn't
> matter.
>   
Why doesn't it matter?  It cost a lot more than mere mass to support 
astronauts working at GEO.  We don't do much of that now.   Not to 
mention I doubt we have 1000 suitably trained astronauts.

- samantha

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100710/1ff5da2a/attachment.html>

From kanzure at gmail.com  Sat Jul 10 08:22:50 2010
From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop)
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2010 03:22:50 -0500
Subject: [ExI] "How would you feel about genetically engineering humans?"
Message-ID: <AANLkTik2CbFwjpZnVRxTRSps2xzVTDWGz0Ft-4n4e13c@mail.gmail.com>

Reddit breaks out with a spontaneous case of transhumanism:

http://www.reddit.com/comments/cmfsi/how_would_you_feel_about_genetically_engineering/

What is transhumanism? "Transhumanists take humanism further by challenging
human limits by means of science and technology combined with critical and
creative thinking. We challenge the inevitability of aging and death, and we
seek continuing enhancements to our intellectual abilities, our physical
capacities, and our emotional development. We see humanity as a transitory
stage in the evolutionary development of intelligence. We advocate using
science to accelerate our move from human to a transhuman or posthuman
condition. As physicist Freeman Dyson has said: "Humanity looks to me like a
magnificent beginning but not the final word." ... "Transhumanism is the
philosophy that we can and should develop to higher levels, physically,
mentally and socially using rational methods."

I found lots of interesting comments on the reddit thread.

- Bryan
http://heybryan.org/
1 512 203 0507
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100710/0846d97b/attachment.html>

From brentn at freeshell.org  Sat Jul 10 11:22:57 2010
From: brentn at freeshell.org (Brent Neal)
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2010 07:22:57 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Could Thorium solve our energy problem?
In-Reply-To: <E3703DA5-F309-49AB-AF08-6BA97848233A@bellsouth.net>
References: <258362.25261.qm@web81601.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<4E0EE09A-C2AE-4D78-B288-1C2AED325376@bellsouth.net>
	<6E4FF05E-E034-46A3-9EFC-DF911EAE5D46@freeshell.org>
	<FFFAD849-7F82-4E4A-9867-4F5C76E4D42D@bellsouth.net>
	<87B34DFA-5921-4F66-A81B-568F3730C7A1@freeshell.org>
	<E3703DA5-F309-49AB-AF08-6BA97848233A@bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <3E8578D8-6A12-40A9-B83B-FC6F9A515EA6@freeshell.org>


On 10 Jul, 2010, at 1:10, John Clark wrote:

> On Jul 10, 2010, at 12:25 AM, Brent Neal wrote:
> 
>> I think you are wildly optimistic and haven't done either the research or the math on how much energy is released in U-233 fission.
> 
> Optimism has nothing to do with it, I maintain that it is a FACT that one kilogram of thorium contains at a minimum 200 times as much usable energy as a kilogram of Uranium as used in todays slow neutron reactors. This is true for 2 reasons:
> 


Yes, but I assumed that the uranium completely fissioned. Also an optimistic assumption. I pointed that out earlier, and also pointed out that this is a function of the molten salt reactor, not the thorium. You can get that yield on U238 if you run it in a MSR. 



B


--
Brent Neal, Ph.D.
http://brentn.freeshell.org
<brentn at freeshell.org>








From brentn at freeshell.org  Sat Jul 10 11:52:02 2010
From: brentn at freeshell.org (Brent Neal)
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2010 07:52:02 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Could Thorium solve our energy problem?
In-Reply-To: <E3703DA5-F309-49AB-AF08-6BA97848233A@bellsouth.net>
References: <258362.25261.qm@web81601.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<4E0EE09A-C2AE-4D78-B288-1C2AED325376@bellsouth.net>
	<6E4FF05E-E034-46A3-9EFC-DF911EAE5D46@freeshell.org>
	<FFFAD849-7F82-4E4A-9867-4F5C76E4D42D@bellsouth.net>
	<87B34DFA-5921-4F66-A81B-568F3730C7A1@freeshell.org>
	<E3703DA5-F309-49AB-AF08-6BA97848233A@bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <EFCF89AB-09B5-4A99-83E4-10B1D595F6D5@freeshell.org>


On 10 Jul, 2010, at 1:10, John Clark wrote:

> On Jul 10, 2010, at 12:25 AM, Brent Neal wrote:
> 
>> I think you are wildly optimistic and haven't done either the research or the math on how much energy is released in U-233 fission.
> 
> Optimism has nothing to do with it, I maintain that it is a FACT that one kilogram of thorium contains at a minimum 200 times as much usable energy as a kilogram of Uranium as used in todays slow neutron reactors. This is true for 2 reasons:
> 

John, 

Because you were using business-person math to make your assumption, and my 80 TJ number was based on a published number for U235 fission plus a bit of Kentucky windage, I decided to post the full calculation for the energy released. This calculation involves looking at the kinetic energy of the fission fragments and the energies of the released photons and electrons (which can be calculated by differencing the rest masses of the U and the fragments.) Usually, this information is captured in a table of nuclides.  Since I have long since sold my old nuclear physics text,  I went looking for the relevant tables.  Lo and behold, the following table has been helpfully posted on the internet:  http://www.kayelaby.npl.co.uk/atomic_and_nuclear_physics/4_7/4_7_1.html

You will note that for U233, the basic release of energy per atom is 197.9 MeV, with an additional 9.1 MeV available from recapturing the fast neutrons. So the most energy that can be extracted per atom of uranium-233 is 207 MeV, or 3.32 e-11 J/atom.   There are 6.023e23 atoms/mol, thus we get 2e12 J/mol.  1 mol of U233 weighs 233g, roughly. This gives us 85 GJ/g or  85 TJ/kg. Thus, my original estimate was off by about 6%, but I'm expect that when the nuclear physicists do the calculation they correct that number for the neutrons that are captured and lead to fission.

B




--
Brent Neal, Ph.D.
http://brentn.freeshell.org
<brentn at freeshell.org>








From jonkc at bellsouth.net  Sat Jul 10 14:16:18 2010
From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John Clark)
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2010 10:16:18 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Could Thorium solve our energy problem?
In-Reply-To: <EFCF89AB-09B5-4A99-83E4-10B1D595F6D5@freeshell.org>
References: <258362.25261.qm@web81601.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<4E0EE09A-C2AE-4D78-B288-1C2AED325376@bellsouth.net>
	<6E4FF05E-E034-46A3-9EFC-DF911EAE5D46@freeshell.org>
	<FFFAD849-7F82-4E4A-9867-4F5C76E4D42D@bellsouth.net>
	<87B34DFA-5921-4F66-A81B-568F3730C7A1@freeshell.org>
	<E3703DA5-F309-49AB-AF08-6BA97848233A@bellsouth.net>
	<EFCF89AB-09B5-4A99-83E4-10B1D595F6D5@freeshell.org>
Message-ID: <A874DDB7-0595-488F-AB66-17F584356369@bellsouth.net>

On Jul 10, 2010, at 7:52 AM, Brent Neal wrote:

> You will note that for U233, the basic release of energy per atom is 197.9 MeV, with an additional 9.1 MeV available from recapturing the fast neutrons. So the most energy that can be extracted per atom of uranium-233 is 207 MeV, or 3.32 e-11 J/atom.   There are 6.023e23 atoms/mol, thus we get 2e12 J/mol.  1 mol of U233 weighs 233g, roughly. This gives us 85 GJ/g or  85 TJ/kg. Thus, my original estimate was off by about 6%,

Let me quote from your calculation that I received on July 8 2010 at 8:50 PM EST:

> The relevant data are:
> 4.3 Mton world thorium reserves (source: OECD)

And that is at least 10 times too small as you have admitted.

> Energy density: 80TJ / ton thorium (estimate based on conversion to U233 via slow neutrons)

The true figure is 85TJ a KILOGRAM not a TON.
Thus you were off not by 6% but by a factor of 10,000.

 John K Clark
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100710/760b15cc/attachment.html>

From bbenzai at yahoo.com  Sat Jul 10 14:03:43 2010
From: bbenzai at yahoo.com (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2010 07:03:43 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 82, Issue 15
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1107.1278749669.10820.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <200345.82848.qm@web114420.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

> From: Max More <max at maxmore.com>
> To: Extropy-Chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Subject: [ExI] New York Times piece on cryonics, featuring
> Robin
> ??? Hanson &? Peggy
> Message-ID: <201007091640.o69Ge75T023636 at andromeda.ziaspace.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii";
> format=flowed
> 
> I highly recommend this article on the deep divergence in
> world view 
> between those (like Robin Hanson -- well known to many of
> us here) 
> who want to live indefinitely long, through cryonic
> suspension if 
> necessary, and those (such as his wife Peggy) who do not
> and don't 
> want others to do so either.
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/11/magazine/11cryonics-t.html?pagewanted=all
> 
> Be sure to read the comments too. Prepare to be frustrated,
> outraged, 
> and puzzled, as well as amused at commentators who raise
> issues with 
> no awareness that cryonics advocates have thought about
> them long and 
> deep for many years.

The thing that shocks and depresses me is not the ignorance - we know about that - but the hostility.  Why do so many people have the attitude "you think differently to me, therefore you are my enemy and I must stop you from doing what you want, even if it has no effect on me whatsoever"?

I reckon that anyone whose partner is opposed to their plans for cryonic (or any other type of) suspension should think long and hard about how to make sure their wishes are carried out, and take heed of this very disturbing comment (supported by 74 readers!):

"An easy solution would be to just agree with him all the way to the grave. Then bury or cremate him. He'll never know."

That is chilling.

Ben Zaiboc


      




From jonkc at bellsouth.net  Sat Jul 10 14:28:59 2010
From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John Clark)
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2010 10:28:59 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Could Thorium solve our energy problem?
In-Reply-To: <3E8578D8-6A12-40A9-B83B-FC6F9A515EA6@freeshell.org>
References: <258362.25261.qm@web81601.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<4E0EE09A-C2AE-4D78-B288-1C2AED325376@bellsouth.net>
	<6E4FF05E-E034-46A3-9EFC-DF911EAE5D46@freeshell.org>
	<FFFAD849-7F82-4E4A-9867-4F5C76E4D42D@bellsouth.net>
	<87B34DFA-5921-4F66-A81B-568F3730C7A1@freeshell.org>
	<E3703DA5-F309-49AB-AF08-6BA97848233A@bellsouth.net>
	<3E8578D8-6A12-40A9-B83B-FC6F9A515EA6@freeshell.org>
Message-ID: <CC8C24BB-CB6C-4A94-BA96-408A16F9EC2A@bellsouth.net>

On Jul 10, 2010, at 7:22 AM, Brent Neal wrote:

> Yes, but I assumed that the uranium completely fissioned.

There is no way you could get complete uranium fission with the pressurized light water reactors we use today, if you wanted to do that you'd have to switch over to a Plutonium based economy and even worse use fast neutron reactors. Besides the obvious danger from terrorism Plutonium reactors give me the creeps as do fast neutron reactors in general; they are inherently more unforgiving than the slow neutron type that a liquid fuel Thorium reactor would use.

 John K Clark


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100710/843872d5/attachment.html>

From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Sat Jul 10 15:02:45 2010
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2010 08:02:45 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Space based solar power
Message-ID: <AANLkTilEtK7in2egUZlH-0X4vntVPWaWkw95z1SFGSOs@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Jul 10, 2010 at 1:14 AM,  Adrian Tymes <wingcat at pacbell.net> wrote:

> Current US price for electricity is around 11 cents/kWh.
> Granted, that's including taxes et al - but it's not
> much better (and often worse) elsewhere, where that
> isn't included.
>
> If you could accept 10 cents/kWh - merely competitive
> with today's prices (and better than rising prices - an
> insulator against current trends, which may be enough
> for a 10 year payback), that's an additional $6400/kW,
> or almost $1300/kg given your numbers. ?$1400/kg to GEO
> is still a bit of an improvement on today's numbers,
> but not quite as far as $100/kg.

Sigh.

To make any economic sense out of power satellites, you have to get
the cost of power down to where it takes a substantial part of the
market.  That means substantially less than coal.

Plus the really big energy market is in liquid fuels.  You can make
carbon neutral liquid fuels from air and water but it takes several
times as much power as the total electrical output of the US, about
two TW.

The problem is that the infrastructure to build power satellites is
expensive, $100 B or more.  That's not an unreasonable number in the
context of selling $320 B a year (200 GW) of new power, but at the
kind of sales you would get at ten cents a kWh, it's an insane number.

Keith



From max at maxmore.com  Sat Jul 10 18:54:33 2010
From: max at maxmore.com (Max More)
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2010 13:54:33 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Could Thorium solve our energy problem?
Message-ID: <201007101854.o6AIsi3m022969@andromeda.ziaspace.com>


>You're still missing the point, though. Even if you triple the 
>number, you're still up against a power law.

But you mentioned a CAGR of 1.8%. That's pretty weak power law. That 
means a doubling time of 38.51 years. After a century, energy 
consumption would be only 6.05 times what it is now. Given that you 
agree that more thorium could actually be extracted than current OECD 
reserve figures suggest, it seems that growth is not a huge problem 
for quite a few decades at least.


>And if you heard me say that it wasn't worth it, that certainly 
>wasn't what I intended to convey. I'm very much in favor of MSRs 
>using the thorium cycle. Just not to the exclusion of everything else. :)

I wasn't suggesting using it to the exclusion of everything else. As 
I said (and as you quoted):
> > Besides, thorium can be well worth using for decades, especially if
> > you don't require that it replace practically *all* other energy
> > sources. It doesn't have to be a perfect and permanent solution to be
> > worth adopting.
> >

So, I don't think we disagree as much as you seem to suggest. Thorium 
can make a major contribution to meeting our energy needs, whether or 
not it can do it alone. The latter is a separate question, which 
seems to depend on (a) one's views about how much could actually be 
extracted with improved techniques and technologies; (b) whether 
thorium's energy density is 85TJ per kilogram or 85TJ per ton.

<http://entropyproduction.blogspot.com/2005/10/uber-atomic-battery.html> 
gives the number 16.3 TJ/kg for Radium-228 (which is in the 
Thorium-232 decay chain), but I don't see the relevant figure for 
thorium. I was disappointed not to find a clear answer here: 
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thorium> nor here: 
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_fuel> Nor did Asimov's 
Understanding Physics answer the question (although it did provide a 
lot of other information about thorium).

So far as I've been able to determine so far, it does sound like 
John's number of 85 TJ per *KG* is right -- *if* you can burn all the 
thorium. There seems to be agreement that, while you can use only a 
small fraction (0.7%) of natural uranium in a reactor, you can use 
all of the thorium. With fast breeder reactors, the situation seems 
even better.

But then there's this:
http://nucleargreen.blogspot.com/2010/02/evidence-for-david-mackay-of-one-ton-of.html

So, I'm still a bit baffled, and especially baffled that you guys 
(who know much more about this than I do) can't seem to agree on the 
numbers to within four orders of magnitude.

>John's suggestion of mining thorium on the moon is a much better 
>solution, IMO. We need to break the constraints placed on us by 
>limiting ourselves to the crust of the Earth. Whether that's lunar 
>mining or solar power satellites, that's the right solution.

Space mining is good, but probably won't be feasible for a while. 
Fortunately, it looks like there's enough Terra-based thorium to make 
a major contribution for quite a few decades.

Max



-------------------------------------
Max More, Ph.D.
Strategic Philosopher
The Proactionary Project
Extropy Institute Founder
www.maxmore.com
max at maxmore.com
------------------------------------- 



From jonkc at bellsouth.net  Sat Jul 10 19:27:53 2010
From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John Clark)
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2010 15:27:53 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Could Thorium solve our energy problem?
In-Reply-To: <201007101854.o6AIsi3m022969@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <201007101854.o6AIsi3m022969@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <E67EE9FA-4E11-4514-8CEF-9F72082BCDCF@bellsouth.net>

Although it would be more economical to mine high quality ore that can approach 50% Thorium content first, if at random you picked one cubic meter of rock anywhere in the Earth's crust you would find about 12 grams of Thorium in it. if placed in a liquid Thorium reactor 12 grams would produce the energy equivalent of 37 tons of coal, enough to power one person's western middle class lifestyle for about a decade. 

Or Imagine it this way, the entire Earth's crust (and then some) being made of nothing but coal, every rock you have ever seen in your life was made of pure coal and you're worried about running out of coal. Finding enough free oxygen to burn up all that coal would be a legitimate concern but running low of that fossil fuel itself not so much. 

  John K Clark
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100710/6f64c74b/attachment.html>

From kanzure at gmail.com  Sat Jul 10 19:46:21 2010
From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop)
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2010 14:46:21 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Buchanan?
Message-ID: <AANLkTin1ZkQ5CNYYvYfsnDcXpzonzah6OKukRgK46hwV@mail.gmail.com>

Not withstanding the current open questions on what to write for
bioethics.gov, I was wondering if anyone here knows Dr. Allen Buchanan. I
was surprised that I haven't heard of him yet. He seems to take a negative
view of the precautionary principle, and doesn't explicitly recognize the
proactionary principle, but does mention "cautionary heuristics".

His testimony to the president's bioethics commission:
http://www.tvworldwide.com/events/bioethics/100708/globe_show/default_go_archive.cfm?gsid=1381&type=flv&test=0&live=0

20min podcast interivew mp3 thing on human enhancement:
http://philosophybites.com/2009/05/allen-buchanan-on-enhancement.html

Beyond Humanity? The Ethics of Biomedical Enhancement
http://www.amazon.com/Beyond-Humanity-Biomedical-Enhancement-Practical/dp/0199587817/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1278790929&sr=1-7

duke page:
http://fds.duke.edu/db/aas/Philosophy/allen.buchanan

Are there other philosophers that are not well known to us? I guess asking
this question is hopeless, but I might as well try :-).

- Bryan
http://heybryan.org/
1 512 203 0507
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100710/327bab31/attachment.html>

From sjatkins at mac.com  Sat Jul 10 21:23:58 2010
From: sjatkins at mac.com (samantha)
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2010 14:23:58 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Could Thorium solve our energy problem?
In-Reply-To: <E67EE9FA-4E11-4514-8CEF-9F72082BCDCF@bellsouth.net>
References: <201007101854.o6AIsi3m022969@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<E67EE9FA-4E11-4514-8CEF-9F72082BCDCF@bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <4C38E4EE.5040804@mac.com>

So, are there any current commercial molten salt thorium reactor 
projects in the US?  If not, why not?  How much does say a 300 MW plant 
cost to build?  Which billionaires can we recruit or which energy 
companies? 

- s

John Clark wrote:
> Although it would be more economical to mine high quality ore that can 
> approach 50% Thorium content first, if at random you picked one cubic 
> meter of rock anywhere in the Earth's crust you would find about 12 
> grams of Thorium in it. if placed in a liquid Thorium reactor 12 grams 
> would produce the energy equivalent of 37 tons of coal, enough to 
> power one person's western middle class lifestyle for about a decade. 
>
> Or Imagine it this way, the entire Earth's crust (and then some) being 
> made of nothing but coal, every rock you have ever seen in your life 
> was made of pure coal and you're worried about running out of coal. 
> Finding enough free oxygen to burn up all that coal would be a 
> legitimate concern but running low of that fossil fuel itself not so 
> much. 
>
>   John K Clark
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>   

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100710/2782432b/attachment.html>

From jrd1415 at gmail.com  Sat Jul 10 21:27:53 2010
From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis)
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2010 14:27:53 -0700
Subject: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 82, Issue 15
In-Reply-To: <200345.82848.qm@web114420.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.1107.1278749669.10820.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<200345.82848.qm@web114420.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinl2ZNAO-5v52dTqMMJDILr2znfx215ZxpOBPzq@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Jul 10, 2010 at 7:03 AM, Ben Zaiboc <bbenzai at yahoo.com> wrote:

> The thing that shocks and depresses me is not the ignorance - we know about that - but the hostility. ?Why do so many people have the attitude "you think differently to me, therefore you are my enemy ...

Tribalism.

A central feature of tribalism is the us/them dichotomy.  "Us"
truthful and good, "them" untruthful and evil.  The human genes of
tribe A compete with the human genes of tribe B.  How does one tribe
distinguish itself from an "other"?

Tribe A has an identity meme set, composed of identity markers such as
culture, belief system, and narrative.  Whenever one tribal human
(which is to say any and all humans) encounters an "other" (as in "an
other tribe") human, the difference in identity markers will provoke
suspicion, caution, and defensiveness.  When the "other" speaks,
memetic conflicts provoke cognitive dissonance.  This mental "pain"
signals a challenge, ie an "attack" by a rival meme set.  Naturally --
here, literally, as in evolved over billions of generations in a
pre-cognitive state of nature -- there will follow an impulse to
strike back, to defend one's own meme set.

That's where the hostility comes from.  A foreign meme set -- cryonics
and its new-paradigm attack on death -- is just too much of an assault
on all the stabilizing and reassuring verities of the old-paradigm
meme set.

The instinct for tribalism is inbuilt and exceedingly powerful.  I see
it as the explanation for examples of astonishingly nonsensical group
think, ie trutherism (on the left) and birtherism (on the right).

That's my take on  it.  YMMV.

Best, Jeff Davis

      "The whole problem with the world is that fools
              and fanatics are always so certain of themselves,
                           and wiser people so full of doubts."
                                                   Bertrand Russell



From brentn at freeshell.org  Sat Jul 10 22:31:56 2010
From: brentn at freeshell.org (Brent Neal)
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2010 18:31:56 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Could Thorium solve our energy problem?
In-Reply-To: <201007101854.o6AIsi3m022969@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <201007101854.o6AIsi3m022969@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <E948E907-8CB7-4647-9FA0-A563421D2F33@freeshell.org>


On 10 Jul, 2010, at 14:54, Max More wrote:

> So far as I've been able to determine so far, it does sound like John's number of 85 TJ per *KG* is right -- *if* you can burn all the thorium. There seems to be agreement that, while you can use only a small fraction (0.7%) of natural uranium in a reactor, you can use all of the thorium. With fast breeder reactors, the situation seems even better.


Max -
It is 85 TJ/kg - my first number was indeed incorrect. The subsequent calculation that I made on depletion was not, though (I just bobbled the transfer from my spreadsheet, where I had 0.085 EJ/ton - I did all my calculations in EJ.)  And while you're right about the doubling period, remember, we're also talking about cumulative use. By 2500, thus, I estimate that we'll have consumed ~48.5 million exajoules since 1980, with an annual consumption of about 3 million exajoules.  While that is well within even conservative estimates of the number of joules available from thorium, its still linear vs. power law. Its just that the power law is pretty tame - 1.8 % :)

I think you're right: we aren't far off in our opinions - we're just niggling over details, as is so often the case with deep subjects! The conclusion that I try to convey to the lay audiences that I speak to about the subject is twofold: 1) We can't rely on any one source of energy. In addition to the guaranteed depletion or surpassing of the global budget (in the case of renewables) there is also the inherent risk of a monoculture.  And, 2) that if you believe, as I do, that human culture (or transhuman culture, such as it may be) will continue for thousands of years, that we will be forced to either leave the surface of the planet for resource extraction or see a collapse of civilization.

On 10 Jul, 2010, at 10:28, John Clark wrote:

> There is no way you could get complete uranium fission with the pressurized light water reactors we use today,

Yes, that's correct. I also stated that you can use uranium in a molten salt reactor, where the conversion efficiency is identical to that of thorium.  You are conflating molten salt reactors with thorium. There is no technical reason why this has to be the case.

> Although it would be more economical to mine high quality ore that can approach 50% Thorium content first, if at random you picked one cubic meter of rock anywhere in the Earth's crust you would find about 12 grams of Thorium in it. if placed in a liquid Thorium reactor 12 grams would produce the energy equivalent of 37 tons of coal, enough to power one person's western middle class lifestyle for about a decade. 


This is true. You are however neglecting to account for the energy needed to extract said thorium (a common layperson mistake, which leads to people believing things like corn based ethanol are good ideas) in your computation.  If the energy return is less than 10:1, then you are still disadvantaged relative to solar, geothermal, etc.  And CSP has a EROEI of as much as 100:1, depending on which solar plant you're talking about and whether its trough-based or tower-based, etc.


On 10 Jul, 2010, at 17:23, samantha wrote:

> So, are there any current commercial molten salt thorium reactor projects in the US?  If not, why not?  How much does say a 300 MW plant cost to build?  Which billionaires can we recruit or which energy companies?  

There are not, unfortunately, any serious attempts currently underway in the US. The Indians are actively researching it, largely due to their large domestic supply of thorium.  Last I researched it, there was a small group that was attempting to design and/or build a modern reactor in the US, but I do not believe they have the funding to build.  One advantage of the molten salt reactor is that it can be built with a much smaller footprint than a LWR.  Unfortunately, the key drawback is the NRC. The only two designs licensed to be built and operated in the US are the GE and Westinghouse LWR designs. The level of politics required to gain that license is certainly Herculean. 

My chief efforts in this regard have been to discuss MSRs with influencers in South Carolina, where they are very interested in expanding nuclear power (due to the presence of the Savannah River National Lab.)  Alas, for most of these people nuclear = uranium, and no amount of data seems to be able to convince them.  I'm attending the Innoventure Alternative Energy conference next week in Spartanburg, SC, where I'm hoping to talk to a different set of people on the subject. Since my boss is one of the conference organizers,  I hope that I'll be able to talk to a different, more technical, group of influencers.

B


--
Brent Neal, Ph.D.
http://brentn.freeshell.org
<brentn at freeshell.org>








From thirdeyeoferis at gmail.com  Sat Jul 10 22:42:47 2010
From: thirdeyeoferis at gmail.com (Thirdeye Of Eris)
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2010 18:42:47 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Could Thorium solve our energy problem?
In-Reply-To: <E948E907-8CB7-4647-9FA0-A563421D2F33@freeshell.org>
References: <201007101854.o6AIsi3m022969@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<E948E907-8CB7-4647-9FA0-A563421D2F33@freeshell.org>
Message-ID: <AANLkTin0R-HfAq-8VAYb2-uZlXAcZqTktguOExb0Ag1c@mail.gmail.com>

What about H3? it's easily available all over the surface of the moon....


-- 
"A rational anarchist believes that concepts such as ?state? and?society?
and ?government? have no existence save as physically exemplified in the
acts of self-responsible individuals. He believes that it is impossible to
shift blame, share blame, distribute blame... as blame, guilt,
responsibility are matters taking place inside human beings singly and
nowhere else. But being rational, he knows that not all individuals hold his
evaluations, so he tries to live perfectly in an imperfect world... aware
that his effort will be less than perfect yet undismayed by self-knowledge
of self-failure."

                -- Professor De La Paz from The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress by
Robert Heinlein
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100710/4819568f/attachment.html>

From dgreer_68 at hotmail.com  Sun Jul 11 01:38:29 2010
From: dgreer_68 at hotmail.com (darren shawn greer)
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2010 21:38:29 -0400
Subject: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 82, Issue 15
In-Reply-To: <200345.82848.qm@web114420.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.1107.1278749669.10820.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>,
	<200345.82848.qm@web114420.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <COL112-W55B065B975B47F8380686D9DB70@phx.gbl>


"Whether or not the human race subconsciously equates attempts to defeat death with treachery, it?s true that a general air of menace hangs over the quest for immortality in Western literature. Think Gilgamesh or Voldemort."
 
Think Genesis. I read the old testament once years ago very carefully for several reasons, but mostly to see what all the fuss was about. I grew up in a small Baptist community and I was taught that the Christian God expelled Adam and Eve for eating from the Tree of Knowedge of Good and Evil. Not so. According to Genesis, he kicked them out because he didn't want them eating from the Tree of Life, which would then make them immortal and God-like.  This taboo against extending life in dramatic ways permeates much of our mythology, both religious and secular.



Per Ardua Ad Astra
For more info on author Darren Greer visit 
http://darrenshawngreer.blogspot.com



 

> Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2010 07:03:43 -0700
> From: bbenzai at yahoo.com
> To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> Subject: Re: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 82, Issue 15
> 
> > From: Max More <max at maxmore.com>
> > To: Extropy-Chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> > Subject: [ExI] New York Times piece on cryonics, featuring
> > Robin
> >     Hanson &  Peggy
> > Message-ID: <201007091640.o69Ge75T023636 at andromeda.ziaspace.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii";
> > format=flowed
> > 
> > I highly recommend this article on the deep divergence in
> > world view 
> > between those (like Robin Hanson -- well known to many of
> > us here) 
> > who want to live indefinitely long, through cryonic
> > suspension if 
> > necessary, and those (such as his wife Peggy) who do not
> > and don't 
> > want others to do so either.
> > 
> > http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/11/magazine/11cryonics-t.html?pagewanted=all
> > 
> > Be sure to read the comments too. Prepare to be frustrated,
> > outraged, 
> > and puzzled, as well as amused at commentators who raise
> > issues with 
> > no awareness that cryonics advocates have thought about
> > them long and 
> > deep for many years.
> 
> The thing that shocks and depresses me is not the ignorance - we know about that - but the hostility. Why do so many people have the attitude "you think differently to me, therefore you are my enemy and I must stop you from doing what you want, even if it has no effect on me whatsoever"?
> 
> I reckon that anyone whose partner is opposed to their plans for cryonic (or any other type of) suspension should think long and hard about how to make sure their wishes are carried out, and take heed of this very disturbing comment (supported by 74 readers!):
> 
> "An easy solution would be to just agree with him all the way to the grave. Then bury or cremate him. He'll never know."
> 
> That is chilling.
> 
> Ben Zaiboc
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

 		 	   		  
_________________________________________________________________
Learn more ways to connect with your buddies now
http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9734388
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100710/268aed72/attachment.html>

From dgreer_68 at hotmail.com  Sun Jul 11 02:09:02 2010
From: dgreer_68 at hotmail.com (darren shawn greer)
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2010 22:09:02 -0400
Subject: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 82, Issue 15
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinl2ZNAO-5v52dTqMMJDILr2znfx215ZxpOBPzq@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1107.1278749669.10820.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>,
	<200345.82848.qm@web114420.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>,
	<AANLkTinl2ZNAO-5v52dTqMMJDILr2znfx215ZxpOBPzq@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <COL112-W331C3E545883DC8E3E65319DB70@phx.gbl>


Tribalism.
> 
> A central feature of tribalism is the us/them dichotomy. "Us"
> truthful and good, "them" untruthful and evil.

 

Edward Said said in his book Orientalism that the battle of the times is not East vs. West but fundamentalism against modernity. Margaret Lawarence (from my own country) wrote in her essay Tribalism: Us and Them that the battle consists of tribalism vs. globalism, and that tribalism is the blight in the centre of the human heart. 



Per Ardua Ad Astra
For more info on author Darren Greer visit 
http://darrenshawngreer.blogspot.com



 

> Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2010 14:27:53 -0700
> From: jrd1415 at gmail.com
> To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> Subject: Re: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 82, Issue 15
> 
> On Sat, Jul 10, 2010 at 7:03 AM, Ben Zaiboc <bbenzai at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> > The thing that shocks and depresses me is not the ignorance - we know about that - but the hostility.  Why do so many people have the attitude "you think differently to me, therefore you are my enemy ...
> 
> Tribalism.
> 
> A central feature of tribalism is the us/them dichotomy. "Us"
> truthful and good, "them" untruthful and evil. The human genes of
> tribe A compete with the human genes of tribe B. How does one tribe
> distinguish itself from an "other"?
> 
> Tribe A has an identity meme set, composed of identity markers such as
> culture, belief system, and narrative. Whenever one tribal human
> (which is to say any and all humans) encounters an "other" (as in "an
> other tribe") human, the difference in identity markers will provoke
> suspicion, caution, and defensiveness. When the "other" speaks,
> memetic conflicts provoke cognitive dissonance. This mental "pain"
> signals a challenge, ie an "attack" by a rival meme set. Naturally --
> here, literally, as in evolved over billions of generations in a
> pre-cognitive state of nature -- there will follow an impulse to
> strike back, to defend one's own meme set.
> 
> That's where the hostility comes from. A foreign meme set -- cryonics
> and its new-paradigm attack on death -- is just too much of an assault
> on all the stabilizing and reassuring verities of the old-paradigm
> meme set.
> 
> The instinct for tribalism is inbuilt and exceedingly powerful. I see
> it as the explanation for examples of astonishingly nonsensical group
> think, ie trutherism (on the left) and birtherism (on the right).
> 
> That's my take on it. YMMV.
> 
> Best, Jeff Davis
> 
> "The whole problem with the world is that fools
> and fanatics are always so certain of themselves,
> and wiser people so full of doubts."
> Bertrand Russell
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

 		 	   		  
_________________________________________________________________
Game on: Challenge friends to great games on Messenger
http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9734387
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100710/6a743364/attachment.html>

From jonkc at bellsouth.net  Sun Jul 11 04:32:25 2010
From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John Clark)
Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2010 00:32:25 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Could Thorium solve our energy problem?
In-Reply-To: <4C38E4EE.5040804@mac.com>
References: <201007101854.o6AIsi3m022969@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<E67EE9FA-4E11-4514-8CEF-9F72082BCDCF@bellsouth.net>
	<4C38E4EE.5040804@mac.com>
Message-ID: <45F4729A-5C65-4472-A6A2-9CCA90CECA23@bellsouth.net>

On Jul 10, 2010, at 5:23 PM, samantha wrote:

> So, are there any current commercial molten salt thorium reactor projects in the US? 

Not now, there were some small ones in the 1960's made by Alvin Weinberg but they were no help in developing weapons because they produced no Plutonium so they were shut down. Ironically Weinberg is the man who invented the pressurized light water reactor we use today and encouraged Admiral Rickover to put them in submarines, but when they just scaled up the submarine design for huge power plants he thought that was a dangerous move and believed his new idea, liquid Thorium salts, was a much better way to go. He was told that if he had doubts about his original invention it was time for him to get out of the nuclear business and he was fired.

Today the amount of money spent on molten salt thorium reactors is zero. I think a larger number might be appropriate.

 John K Clark  



-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100711/7ca7844e/attachment.html>

From jonkc at bellsouth.net  Sun Jul 11 05:57:51 2010
From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John Clark)
Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2010 01:57:51 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Could Thorium solve our energy problem?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTin0R-HfAq-8VAYb2-uZlXAcZqTktguOExb0Ag1c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <201007101854.o6AIsi3m022969@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<E948E907-8CB7-4647-9FA0-A563421D2F33@freeshell.org>
	<AANLkTin0R-HfAq-8VAYb2-uZlXAcZqTktguOExb0Ag1c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6A67A165-6CAC-449D-A49A-8C8AF97C2AAC@bellsouth.net>

On Jul 10, 2010, at 6:42 PM, Thirdeye Of Eris wrote:

> What about H3? it's easily available all over the surface of the moon....

You must be using the phrase "easily available" in a way that I have not previously been aware.

But it would be great because a H3 reaction produces energy but no neutrons, the same is true for a Boron-Hydrogen fusion reaction and you can pick up those ingredients at your local supermarket. Unfortunately both reactions need even higher temperatures than the standard deuterium-tritium reaction and we haven't even got that to work, except of course for in the H Bomb.

  John K Clark    

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100711/325d3410/attachment.html>

From jonkc at bellsouth.net  Sun Jul 11 05:37:42 2010
From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John Clark)
Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2010 01:37:42 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Could Thorium solve our energy problem?
In-Reply-To: <E948E907-8CB7-4647-9FA0-A563421D2F33@freeshell.org>
References: <201007101854.o6AIsi3m022969@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<E948E907-8CB7-4647-9FA0-A563421D2F33@freeshell.org>
Message-ID: <F617C9C6-9118-445A-8EE3-71AE3FBD9839@bellsouth.net>

On Jul 10, 2010, at 6:31 PM, Brent Neal wrote:

>> There is no way you could get complete uranium fission with the pressurized light water reactors we use today
> 
> Yes, that's correct. I also stated that you can use uranium in a molten salt reactor, where the conversion efficiency is identical to that of thorium.

Yes but the chemistry is much more complicated. If you use Uranium you need to constantly separate the Uranium from the Plutonium in the liquid fuel, but that's extremely hard complex and expensive to do because Uranium and Plutonium are chemically very similar. If you use Thorium you also need to constantly separate the Thorium from the Uranium 233 in the liquid fuel, but that's easy to do, just bubble Florine through it.

Probably if you want to go with Uranium 238 and use it all up the only practical way is to use a liquid metal fast neutron reactor, which I hate because they can change state so fast that if you make a mistake you have no time to react and you're in a world of hurt before you know what hit you; the fact that they use molten sodium as a coolant does not add to there appeal. Molten sodium burns when in contact with the air and explodes in the presents of water. After a short time in operation this hot liquid sodium becomes intensely radioactive.  And that's not just a theoretical danger, in 1996 a leak in a sodium pump destroyed the newest and largest breeder reactor in Japan, if it wasn't in a containment building it could have been a human disaster. It's already an economic disaster of several hundred million dollars.

And besides, no matter what you do if you insist on using up all the Uranium in your reactor you're going to end up with a Plutonium based economy. And I just don't like Plutonium. 

>>  if at random you picked one cubic meter of rock anywhere in the Earth's crust you would find about 12 grams of Thorium in it. if placed in a liquid Thorium reactor 12 grams would produce the energy equivalent of 37 tons of coal, enough to power one person's western middle class lifestyle for about a decade. 
> 
> This is true. You are however neglecting to account for the energy needed to extract said thorium

I don't know how much energy it would take to extract 12 grams of Thorium from a random cubic meter of rock but I doubt it's more than the energy required to give a person a middle class lifestyle for a decade. And with all the high grade Thorium deposits around it would be a very long time before we even bothered to try.

  John K Clark




> (a common layperson mistake, which leads to people believing things like corn based ethanol are good ideas) in your computation.  If the energy return is less than 10:1, then you are still disadvantaged relative to solar, geothermal, etc.  And CSP has a EROEI of as much as 100:1, depending on which solar plant you're talking about and whether its trough-based or tower-based, etc.
> 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100711/5f4f3dcb/attachment.html>

From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Sun Jul 11 09:06:37 2010
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2010 11:06:37 +0200
Subject: [ExI] mind body dualism
In-Reply-To: <4C32239F.5000408@satx.rr.com>
References: <732467.6723.qm@web36502.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<AANLkTimgs4rYqFFOie84GjH7zTjdGPtl1n5F-62dERfr@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C32239F.5000408@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTilKGOfLSW5Kyvcq5ORuu1mlzk4MlRz0iKHacrcx@mail.gmail.com>

On 5 July 2010 20:25, Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com> wrote:
> "Functional equivalence at the sociological level"--a teleporter "clone"
> identifical to the original--might very well become accepted once such an
> innovation arrives, but the doctrine of functional equivalence at the
> sociological level is what fascist and communist and corporate consumerist
> ideologies use to make individual persons fungible and disposable. Hell, no.

This view may well remain an option, and still end up becoming
irrelevant without any special effort by anyone to this effect.

As long as Darwinian whispers defining our survival istinct do not
kick in, "survival" remains an abstract concept,.depending on the
metaphors one chooses to adopt.

And the individual opting for plane transportation over teleport out
of philosophical concerns when all his neighbours, children, lovers
and friends routinely do the opposite without making any
phenomenological difference are not going to keep airlines in
operation for long, IMHO. Especially taking into account that those
perishing in a plane crash would instead be dead for good and
perceived as such, unless perhaps under the aspect of even vaguer
metaphors such as "immortal glory".

So, while I am pretty much in agreement that rational arguments are
futile in showing the alleged "innocuity" of teleport, uploading,
downloading, cryonic resurrection, etc., I have little doubts on what
perspective will become dominant if and when they will be implemented.

-- 
Stefano Vaj


From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Sun Jul 11 08:46:47 2010
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2010 10:46:47 +0200
Subject: [ExI] gaming reports
In-Reply-To: <162577.73699.qm@web81504.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <AANLkTinuTRXLmEBvTWynI-xPn2r8JloKjTEP9H4wEJwb@mail.gmail.com>
	<162577.73699.qm@web81504.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTili18PKfhjcGkmijAHmhi4rpmptQgVRaPmbAaHB@mail.gmail.com>

2010/7/5 Gregory Jones <spike66 at att.net>
> Certainly, no argument there.? In your example, nearly half of the players walk away with more money than they had to start.

OTOH, one might be a statistician in life, and still fancy the idea of
betting one time or another ten euros for a 1 against 2 millions odd
of winning one million.

This is a very unfavourable bet, but it remains very different from
betting, say, 10 billion times and ending up pretty certainly with
roughly half of the total money invested.

I suspect that perfect markets, where no informational asymmietry
exists, would not be that different from such scenario.

--
Stefano Vaj



From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Sun Jul 11 09:16:24 2010
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2010 11:16:24 +0200
Subject: [ExI] mind body dualism.
In-Reply-To: <B7D916C5-FB92-4425-929D-7FFDF325198A@bellsouth.net>
References: <732467.6723.qm@web36502.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<AANLkTimgs4rYqFFOie84GjH7zTjdGPtl1n5F-62dERfr@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C32239F.5000408@satx.rr.com>
	<B7D916C5-FB92-4425-929D-7FFDF325198A@bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTilQWz_qF3fW0x10HNasP1Obcb9bKFrTRgLOqkdU@mail.gmail.com>

2010/7/5 John Clark <jonkc at bellsouth.net>:
> I hate to break it to you?Damien, but at the deepest level our bodies are
> fungible and if you don't like that fact feel free to rage about it if that
> makes you feel better. It won't change a thing.

It is true however that some paradoxes are hardly avoidable. Let us
take again teleport.

Imagine a teleline employee telling you. "Sir, I am pleased to inform
you that your details have been correctly received by our Vancouver
station and you are in the process of being reconstituted right now.
Now, let us proceed to the destruction phase of the process".

I would be the first to scream and run.

OTOH, if such "destruction" is an instantaneous processus taking place
prior or simultaneously with my exiting the gate in Vancouver, I
assume that (almost) nobody would really care, not really anymore than
about the idea that any relocation in space would break continuity,
and if you move by walking from point A to point B your atoms "cease
to exist" in point A and "start existing" in point B.

And yet one would be hard pressed to define the difference. Simply, in
the first scenario ordinary survival mechanism telling you that your
genes would have a better chance if you run, come into play.

-- 
Stefano Vaj



From dgreer_68 at hotmail.com  Sun Jul 11 12:14:56 2010
From: dgreer_68 at hotmail.com (darren shawn greer)
Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2010 08:14:56 -0400
Subject: [ExI] mind body dualism.
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTilQWz_qF3fW0x10HNasP1Obcb9bKFrTRgLOqkdU@mail.gmail.com>
References: <732467.6723.qm@web36502.mail.mud.yahoo.com>,
	<AANLkTimgs4rYqFFOie84GjH7zTjdGPtl1n5F-62dERfr@mail.gmail.com>,
	<4C32239F.5000408@satx.rr.com>,
	<B7D916C5-FB92-4425-929D-7FFDF325198A@bellsouth.net>,
	<AANLkTilQWz_qF3fW0x10HNasP1Obcb9bKFrTRgLOqkdU@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <COL112-W536851FAFA8C08ACAB2CDE9DB70@phx.gbl>


>And yet one would be hard pressed to define the difference. Simply, in
>the first scenario ordinary survival mechanism telling you that your
>genes would have a better chance if you run, come into play.

 

 

I expect there is a certain amount of social conditioning invovled in such a scenario. If you were to time-travel a contemporary surgeon back to the twelfth century, and they were to tell an average guy living in that century that he could simply replace his heart with a new one, that guy would likely run screaming too. Along with any technological adavancement for the betterment or convenience of the human race the science must be popularized and people assured that the science is safe. Air travel, modern medical procedures, nuclear power all have had to undergo this process of popular assurance. If the benefit outweighs the risk, and people have been assured that the science is sound and the process safe enough, no matter how contrary to our base survival instinct, we will eventually utilize it. Human beings are remarkably adaptable in this sense, which has made possible our technological progress thus far. 


 

Forgive me. Alot of you guys are scientists, or lay mathmaticians it seems. I'm an artist, an english lit major, and an essayist. My interest in transhumanism is largely with the social conditions required for human beings to accept what I see as inevitable, the transformation of the human race through technology into something more than human. I don't see this happening without radical social and intellectual changes, as well as a shift in the way we look at each other and the world. I also see the post-human state as an evolutionary process. Dr. Andy Miah believes the evolutionary component to be unimportant compared to the technological component. I respectfully disagree. 

 

Give you an idea of why I often interject on a sociologicial basis.

 

Darren

Per Ardua Ad Astra
For more info on author Darren Greer visit 
http://darrenshawngreer.blogspot.com



 

> Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2010 11:16:24 +0200
> From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com
> To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> Subject: Re: [ExI] mind body dualism.
> 
> 2010/7/5 John Clark <jonkc at bellsouth.net>:
> > I hate to break it to you Damien, but at the deepest level our bodies are
> > fungible and if you don't like that fact feel free to rage about it if that
> > makes you feel better. It won't change a thing.
> 
> It is true however that some paradoxes are hardly avoidable. Let us
> take again teleport.
> 
> Imagine a teleline employee telling you. "Sir, I am pleased to inform
> you that your details have been correctly received by our Vancouver
> station and you are in the process of being reconstituted right now.
> Now, let us proceed to the destruction phase of the process".
> 
> I would be the first to scream and run.
> 
> OTOH, if such "destruction" is an instantaneous processus taking place
> prior or simultaneously with my exiting the gate in Vancouver, I
> assume that (almost) nobody would really care, not really anymore than
> about the idea that any relocation in space would break continuity,
> and if you move by walking from point A to point B your atoms "cease
> to exist" in point A and "start existing" in point B.
> 
> And yet one would be hard pressed to define the difference. Simply, in
> the first scenario ordinary survival mechanism telling you that your
> genes would have a better chance if you run, come into play.
> 
> -- 
> Stefano Vaj
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

 		 	   		  
_________________________________________________________________
Game on: Challenge friends to great games on Messenger
http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9734387
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100711/c325522b/attachment.html>

From jonkc at bellsouth.net  Sun Jul 11 14:53:07 2010
From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John Clark)
Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2010 10:53:07 -0400
Subject: [ExI] mind body dualism.
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTilQWz_qF3fW0x10HNasP1Obcb9bKFrTRgLOqkdU@mail.gmail.com>
References: <732467.6723.qm@web36502.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<AANLkTimgs4rYqFFOie84GjH7zTjdGPtl1n5F-62dERfr@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C32239F.5000408@satx.rr.com>
	<B7D916C5-FB92-4425-929D-7FFDF325198A@bellsouth.net>
	<AANLkTilQWz_qF3fW0x10HNasP1Obcb9bKFrTRgLOqkdU@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <F496228C-35B4-4BE7-BDC3-41725229CAF1@bellsouth.net>

On Jul 11, 2010, at 5:16 AM, Stefano Vaj wrote:

Me:
>> I hate to break it to you Damien, but at the deepest level our bodies are
>> fungible and if you don't like that fact feel free to rage about it if that
>> makes you feel better. It won't change a thing.
> 
> It is true however that some paradoxes are hardly avoidable.

I am not aware of any paradoxes in this issue; some odd situations yes but not paradoxes.

> Let us take again teleport. Imagine a teleline employee telling you. "Sir, I am pleased to inform
> you that your details have been correctly received by our Vancouver station and you are in the process of being reconstituted right now. 

My question would be: When you say "your details have been correctly received" does that include the details about what you're saying to me right now?

> Now, let us proceed to the destruction phase of the process".
> I would be the first to scream and run.

I'd be running and screaming before you if the answer was "no". It's just a little quirk of mine, I don't like having a last thought and I dislike knowing this is my last thought even more.

> OTOH, if such "destruction" is an instantaneous processus taking place
> prior or simultaneously with my exiting the gate in Vancouver, I
> assume that (almost) nobody would really care

I wouldn't care in the slightest but for some reason most on this list would, but only if you told them it was happening because otherwise they would have no way of knowing it had even occurred. In fact just telling them would not be enough because nobody would believe it, you'd have to provide ironclad proof and then they'd get upset thinking they were dead or some such nonsense. 

> And yet one would be hard pressed to define the difference.

I don't know what you're talking about, the two cases are clearly and objectively discernible. 

  John K Clark




-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100711/775a8878/attachment.html>

From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Sun Jul 11 15:58:52 2010
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2010 17:58:52 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Belief in maths (was mind body dualism)
In-Reply-To: <COL112-W37769A3E3F02ED45A43D3A9DB30@phx.gbl>
References: <mailman.1030.1278386441.10820.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<348701.85627.qm@web114406.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<AANLkTinnmG8JEnpSlDmoABZhknPEgsxQxAvgAGmJwZzg@mail.gmail.com>
	<COL112-W3162C59433C84E22F208BC9DB20@phx.gbl>
	<4C33DCF5.3010607@mac.com>
	<COL112-W37769A3E3F02ED45A43D3A9DB30@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <AANLkTim-CsxW0Z3uKslWT6GouyBHB9GFbd-Ao7dhPoma@mail.gmail.com>

2010/7/7 darren shawn greer <dgreer_68 at hotmail.com>

>  >Lack of evidence is a perfectly fine reason to not think something is
> so.  If it also has logical inconsistency problems and/or has no explanatory
> theory that is sufficiently sound then that is more reason to disbelief it.<
>
>
> It is such an important discussion, for secular humanists and religious
> humanists are constantly having this argument. "Absence of evidence is not
> evidence of absence" and "It most certainly is!"
>
>
Indeed most posthumanists could not care less instead of the "evidence of
non-existence". The very concept of the monotheistic God, e.g., is simply
not palatable, irrespective of whether it be "true" or not, and whatever
"true" might mean in the first place.


-- 
Stefano Vaj
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100711/264335c4/attachment.html>

From natasha at natasha.cc  Sun Jul 11 16:26:15 2010
From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More)
Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2010 11:26:15 -0500
Subject: [ExI] META:  Images in Email
Message-ID: <F70DA5418B3A432186312686FA42FE4E@DFC68LF1>

Please do not put images in email messages.
 
Thanks,
Natasha
 
 <http://www.natasha.cc/> Natasha Vita-More
 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100711/00c973f6/attachment.html>

From nanogirl at halcyon.com  Sun Jul 11 18:00:50 2010
From: nanogirl at halcyon.com (Gina Miller)
Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2010 12:00:50 -0600
Subject: [ExI] My "Lazarus" Nanotechnology graphic novel interview
Message-ID: <496628DDD079468CABB1F7ACEE03A5B6@3DBOXXW4850>

My new graphic novel Lazarus (http://nanogirl.com/author.html) is currently being featured on the front page of City Weekly. They interviewed me about Lazarus as well as about my other animation work and my textured paintings. It's a very lengthy interview full of photographs. You can read it here: http://www.cityweekly.net/utah/blog-3889-gina-miller.html

I hope you enjoy it, and Lazarus too! Gina

Get your copy of Lazarus: 
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0982731205
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100711/fa46e27e/attachment.html>

From michaelfd1976 at gmail.com  Sun Jul 11 17:11:29 2010
From: michaelfd1976 at gmail.com (Michael D)
Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2010 13:11:29 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Could Thorium solve our energy problem?
In-Reply-To: <F617C9C6-9118-445A-8EE3-71AE3FBD9839@bellsouth.net>
References: <201007101854.o6AIsi3m022969@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<E948E907-8CB7-4647-9FA0-A563421D2F33@freeshell.org>
	<F617C9C6-9118-445A-8EE3-71AE3FBD9839@bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTilWbGSJacacoPbzS6GMS5osLc-HCLolp5RuDefd@mail.gmail.com>

"This is true. You are however neglecting to account for the energy needed
to extract said thorium (a common layperson mistake, which leads to people
believing things like corn based ethanol are good ideas) in your
computation.  If the energy return is less than 10:1,"

Thorium and Uranium are present in trace quantities in Coal.

"Figure 1 displays the frequency distribution of uranium concentration for
approximately 2,000 coal samples from the Western United States and
approximately 300 coals from the Illinois Basin. In the majority of samples,
concentrations of uranium fall in the range from slightly below 1 to 4 parts
per million (ppm). Similar uranium concentrations are found in a variety of
common rocks and soils, as indicated in figure 2. Coals with more than 20
ppm uranium are rare in the United States. Thorium concentrations in coal
fall within a similar 1?4 ppm range, compared to an average crustal
abundance of approximately 10 ppm"

http://pubs.usgs.gov/fs/1997/fs163-97/FS-163-97.html

Considering that the energy avaialbe from fissioning uranium, thorium,
plutonium, is more than 10 million times that of burning coal, coal should
be used as a source of these elements as well as the energy required to mine
the coal and seperate these elements from the coal.

-Michael F Dickey
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100711/ddc41ae5/attachment.html>

From mbb386 at main.nc.us  Sun Jul 11 19:14:17 2010
From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB)
Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2010 15:14:17 -0400
Subject: [ExI] My "Lazarus" Nanotechnology graphic novel interview
In-Reply-To: <496628DDD079468CABB1F7ACEE03A5B6@3DBOXXW4850>
References: <496628DDD079468CABB1F7ACEE03A5B6@3DBOXXW4850>
Message-ID: <fabe991a14a8e46bbbc61cdcf8f7b81b.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>


Very cool, Gina!  Enjoyed the article. :)

Regards,
MB



From michaelfd1976 at gmail.com  Sun Jul 11 17:00:34 2010
From: michaelfd1976 at gmail.com (Michael D)
Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2010 13:00:34 -0400
Subject: [ExI] New York Times piece on cryonics,
	featuring Robin Hanson & 	Peggy
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikwbp6tuYqn1EWvi2oThmufvkgLoi4qZg9RHZeD@mail.gmail.com>
References: <201007091640.o69Ge75T023636@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<AANLkTikwbp6tuYqn1EWvi2oThmufvkgLoi4qZg9RHZeD@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikmkHkHGvrfpnM-WNOWzKEVQD1Ux0wO07XKklS5@mail.gmail.com>

Advocates of socialized medicine who are aslo cryonicists would do well to
take note of the following comments in this NYT article


"The United States is not necessarily an easy place to take up the banner of
letting go; we?re likely to call it ?giving up,? and there is of course no
purer expression of this attitude than the pursuit of cryonics."
"Robin?s expertise extends to the economics of health care, a domain in
which enormous amounts of money are spent on experimental procedures with
only a small chance of extending life."

"His students rarely accept this framing. ?We spend most of the semester
talking about how people are obsessed with taking any small chance at living
longer,? Robin says. ?And then when we get to cryonics, it?s: Well, who
needs to live longer? What?s the point of living anyway? Why can?t we solve
global hunger??


As well as a recent Yahoo news article which basically villifies America for
trying too hard to save lives, criticizing procedures that are extremely
expensive and have little chance of success.


Americans are treated, and overtreated, to death
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100628/ap_on_he_me/us_med_overtreated_final_days

- Michael F Dickey

On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 6:22 PM, Jeff Davis <jrd1415 at gmail.com> wrote:


> On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 9:39 AM, Max More <max at maxmore.com> wrote:
>
> > Be sure to read the comments too. ...
>
> Great comments.  All the classic objections and attitudes. some
> thoughtfulness, good civility, and some bright spots -- #44,  and one
> of the best limericks ever, from "mick" on Ibiza,
> #48.
>
> Here it is, saved for posterity, slip it into my dewar when I'[m gone:
>
> There was an old widow named Price
> Who kept her dead husband on ice
> "It's been hard since I lost him,
> I'll never defrost him"
> Cold comfort, but cheap at the price.
>
> Best, Jeff Davis
>
>  "Everything's hard till you know how to do it."
>                      Ray Charles
>
>  _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100711/117ed4ab/attachment.html>

From dgreer_68 at hotmail.com  Sun Jul 11 19:29:07 2010
From: dgreer_68 at hotmail.com (darren shawn greer)
Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2010 15:29:07 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Belief in maths (was mind body dualism)
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTim-CsxW0Z3uKslWT6GouyBHB9GFbd-Ao7dhPoma@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1030.1278386441.10820.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>,
	<348701.85627.qm@web114406.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>,
	<AANLkTinnmG8JEnpSlDmoABZhknPEgsxQxAvgAGmJwZzg@mail.gmail.com>,
	<COL112-W3162C59433C84E22F208BC9DB20@phx.gbl>,
	<4C33DCF5.3010607@mac.com>,
	<COL112-W37769A3E3F02ED45A43D3A9DB30@phx.gbl>,
	<AANLkTim-CsxW0Z3uKslWT6GouyBHB9GFbd-Ao7dhPoma@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <COL112-W65CCCA05B4420DE21D3CFF9DB70@phx.gbl>



 
2010/7/7 darren shawn greer <dgreer_68 at hotmail.com>



>Lack of evidence is a perfectly fine reason to not think something is so.  If it also has logical inconsistency problems and/or has no explanatory theory that is sufficiently sound then that is more reason to disbelief it.<


It is such an important discussion, for secular humanists and religious humanists are constantly having this argument. "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" and "It most certainly is!"



>Indeed most posthumanists could not care less instead of the "evidence of non-existence". The very >concept of the monotheistic God, e.g., is simply not palatable, irrespective of whether it be "true" or not,>and whatever "true" might mean in the first place.
 
Thanks, for that was my original point, that the argument is polarizing and pointless and zaps useful energies and that collectively as a species we'd be better off abandoning it altogether. My belief is that in a (perhaps remote) future the concept of god as we currently define it -- ie. the Supreme Being-- will cease to even have meaning. However, someone else made the point that it is currently very relevant, as we see alot of violence and political strife because of it. May be, but I no longer argue about my meta-physical beliefs or yours or even think much about those subjects at all. I do however spend alot of time semantically defending my position that theism vs athiesm is a losing proposition on both sides, as long as one is trying to convince the other of the correctness of their own belief. The word god still seems to have much emotive power even among those who don't believe. It's gonna take along time to get everyone to start decapitilizing it, in mind as well as on screen. :)
 
Darren
 
 
 
 


 
Per Ardua Ad Astra
For more info on author Darren Greer visit 
http://darrenshawngreer.blogspot.com



 



Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2010 17:58:52 +0200
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com
To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
Subject: Re: [ExI] Belief in maths (was mind body dualism)



 
-- 
Stefano Vaj

 		 	   		  
_________________________________________________________________
Learn more ways to connect with your buddies now
http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9734388
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100711/e68be4e6/attachment.html>

From spike66 at att.net  Sun Jul 11 20:32:55 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (Gregory Jones)
Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2010 13:32:55 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] proton measurement upset
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTilfoSLnwRxdha73Co615C-ZgktAvC32Qw7SzlUD@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <774554.16526.qm@web81505.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



--- On Thu, 7/8/10, Jeff Davis <jrd1415 at gmail.com> wrote:
?
> Take a deep breath, Gregory, and here, put this paper bag over your head.? Okay, now go to your happy place........
?
Jeff how-the-heck-are-ya Davis!? You come in here, make a few hilarious comments, then disappear for months at a time?? What is that about?? This was a most creative post.? You have real talent pal.
?
>So you see, Gregory, everything is alright.? Theories come and go.? It's the way of things.? Not to worry.? Tomorrow we'll have a little ceremony and bury the old theory in the backyard...
?
NO!? We are not going to bury quantum theory, no way Jose.? There is something wrong with the experiment.? Hasta be.
?
>right next to Nasa's pre-eminence...
?
NO!? That one has been really sick for a lot of years, but let us not bury it just yet.? Reduce its size by a factor of about four, redefine its scope back to having something to do with research and space exploration for sure, but do not bury.
?
>?and the US Constitution...
?
NO!? That one too has been under seige for a long time, but plenty of Americans are realizing that the alternatives to the US Constitution are not good.? I expect it to rise from the ashes and soar to new heights of glory, in our natural lifetimes.
?
>...Now now, don't cry.?? Best, Jeff Davis
?
Don't cry and don't give up.? Life is good, tomorrow?will be?even better.
?
spike
?
?
?
?
?

?

From: Jeff Davis <jrd1415 at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ExI] proton measurement upset
To: "ExI chat list" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Date: Thursday, July 8, 2010, 4:52 PM


Take a deep breath, Gregory, and here, put this paper bag over your head.? Okay, now go to your happy place........

Before we go all "The sky is falling!? The sky is falling!." how about distracting oneself with some dilletantishly inept splainin'.

How's this:

Proton made of sub-elements called Quarks, ya?? Distinct entities these quarks, ya??? Of Mr. Proton there be three, ya?? Inherently dynamic slash mobile, ya???? Whether quantum or classical be the idiom, ya??? Movement, motion, waveforms all pulsatile, ya?? Frenzied they be, ya?? Scurrying to and fro, 'bout the plank matrix, ya???? Dancing with the Lepton who brung'em, ya?

Dance lepton!? Dance quarks! ? White lab coats watch, white lab coats measure.? The sacred data gathered be.? Crunch your numbers, dark mutants of algorythmic prophecy.? Crunch, crunch.? Aaaaaaaah!? Now tell of the embrace of the three quarks and their Lepton.? They keep the thrill of her touch at what remove?? "n" you say.? They like her that much?? The night is young, the sweet whine of the particle accelerator thrills the air, if this music be the mood of entanglement, mu on.

"Muon?", you say.? And here she comes. ? Burly and robust in her Lepton-hood, she boots her spindly sister-lepton out of orbit with a flip of eigenvector, and localizes the domain of her briefly destabilized quark triplet.?? She grips them tightly, more tightly than one might suppose.? And the dance is on.? 

"They call me unstable!" she announces with defiant playfulness, "But they're just envious.? It's so boring to be unreactive.? Hold me close darlings, I want to feel that strong force.? Closer still.? If you love me, suck in your waveforms, boys.? There you go.? That's got it.? Four percent.? Singular talent.? You put the "pro" in proton.? I'll bond with you boys anytime."

So you see, Gregory, everything is alright.? Theories come and go.? It's the way of things.? Not to worry.? Tomorrow we'll have a little ceremony and bury the old theory in the backyard, right next to Nasa's pre-eminence, and the US Constitution.? Now now, don't cry. ? 

Best, Jeff Davis

"Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who
? ? ? ?? said it--no matter if I have said it--unless it agrees with 
??????????????????? your own reason and your common sense."
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?? ? ? ? ? ? Buddha





2010/7/8 Gregory Jones <spike66 at att.net>







--- On Thu, 7/8/10, Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com> wrote:
?
...Measurements with lasers have revealed that the proton may be a touch smaller than predicted by current theories...

A touch smaller?? 4% is huuuge.? Did they mean 4 parts per billion?? I know it is premature judgment and all that, but this result must be wrong, waaaaay wrong.? I can't imagine how this could be right.? No way!? Can't be, just can't.? That result?messes up?quantum theory all to holler.? Actually it messes up more than just quantum theory.
?
spike

?
_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat





#yiv531649590 #avg_ls_inline_popup {padding:0px 0px;margin-left:0px;margin-top:0px;width:240px;overflow:hidden;word-wrap:break-word;color:black;font-size:10px;text-align:left;line-height:13px;}

-----Inline Attachment Follows-----


_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100711/a477ae76/attachment.html>

From ryanobjc at gmail.com  Sun Jul 11 20:47:32 2010
From: ryanobjc at gmail.com (Ryan Rawson)
Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2010 13:47:32 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Could Thorium solve our energy problem?
In-Reply-To: <45F4729A-5C65-4472-A6A2-9CCA90CECA23@bellsouth.net>
References: <201007101854.o6AIsi3m022969@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<E67EE9FA-4E11-4514-8CEF-9F72082BCDCF@bellsouth.net>
	<4C38E4EE.5040804@mac.com>
	<45F4729A-5C65-4472-A6A2-9CCA90CECA23@bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTiklR9iZnp3RBeqsGBCf_FANHJM3L3lm-dkqD-JI@mail.gmail.com>

2010/7/10 John Clark <jonkc at bellsouth.net>:
> On Jul 10, 2010, at 5:23 PM, samantha wrote:
>
> So, are there any current commercial molten salt thorium reactor projects in
> the US?
>
> Not now, there were some small ones in the 1960's made by?Alvin Weinberg?but
> they were no help in developing weapons because they produced no Plutonium
> so they were shut down. Ironically?Weinberg is the man who invented the
> pressurized light water reactor we use today and encouraged?Admiral Rickover
> to put them in submarines, but when they just scaled up the submarine design
> for huge power plants he thought that was a dangerous move and believed his
> new idea, liquid Thorium salts, was a much better way to go. He was told
> that if he had doubts about his original invention it was time for him to
> get out of the nuclear business and he was fired.
> Today the amount of money spent on?molten salt thorium reactors is zero.?I
> think a larger number might be appropriate.
> ?John K Clark

Wired had an article about Thorium reactors, most if it has been
already stated here, but there is one interesting snippet:

http://www.wired.com/magazine/2009/12/ff_new_nukes/

"Locked in a struggle with a nuclear- armed Soviet Union, the US
government in the ?60s chose to build uranium-fueled reactors ? in
part because they produce plutonium that can be refined into
weapons-grade material. The course of the nuclear industry was set for
the next four decades, and thorium power became one of the great
what-if technologies of the 20th century."

Given the context of the cold war '60s this policy move (now
regrettable) does make some amount of sense.

-ryan



From spike66 at att.net  Mon Jul 12 00:00:25 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2010 17:00:25 -0700
Subject: [ExI] internet as the biggest advance in medicine ever
Message-ID: <E2327ECB468949A08B606321ED98877F@spike>

 
A couple weeks ago I made some comments about medical marijuana.  My
interest is not in that particular medication, but rather in the structure
of law in its interaction with the medical world.  Grass is illegal, but
Taxifornia is challenging that.  So why not other medications as well?  We
have a tool where thousands of patients with any oddball disease can just
try stuff, and post to some central buletin board on how it is going,
something like this:

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=control-group-patients-ta

If one has some orphan disease that can kill, learning about that disease is
an overwhelming interest.  The patient soon knows more than the doctor.  I
can imagine that is happening more and more all the time.  Medics, is it?

If one had a database of what patients were trying, coming from all over the
world, it looks to me like useful signals could eventually be extracted from
the noise.

spike 

 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100711/1dff1925/attachment.html>

From rtomek at ceti.pl  Mon Jul 12 03:34:43 2010
From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola)
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 05:34:43 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] internet as the biggest advance in medicine ever
In-Reply-To: <E2327ECB468949A08B606321ED98877F@spike>
References: <E2327ECB468949A08B606321ED98877F@spike>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1007120436450.4403@tau.ceti.pl>

On Sun, 11 Jul 2010, spike wrote:

>  
> A couple weeks ago I made some comments about medical marijuana.  My
> interest is not in that particular medication, but rather in the structure
> of law in its interaction with the medical world.  Grass is illegal, but
> Taxifornia is challenging that.  So why not other medications as well?  We
> have a tool where thousands of patients with any oddball disease can just
> try stuff, and post to some central buletin board on how it is going,
> something like this:
> 
> http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=control-group-patients-ta
> 
> If one has some orphan disease that can kill, learning about that disease is
> an overwhelming interest.  The patient soon knows more than the doctor.  I
> can imagine that is happening more and more all the time.  Medics, is it?

This is rather doubtful, at least for me (even though I am far from 
being/becoming/considering a medic). Would you trust opinions on your 
profesional subjects from someone who did not have one or two years of 
calculus? He could read a lot and with no calculus he would still sit in 
the middle of the woods. He could be great practitioner, but without big
enough knowledge equivalent he would not even be able to understand why 
this worked in his case and why it may or may not work in some other 
cases.

Just my 8gr (2 cents is about 0.08 Polish zloty which is 8 grosz - grosz 
is singular, plural is grosze, but, well, we don't have to be that 
strict).

Of course, since a library is few moves of a hand away, more people are 
actually trying to learn something (whatever they need at the moment). 
Sometimes they are lucky to find a treatment that is hard to be screwed up 
and cheap enough to be performed in a self-help manner. And this is very 
positive thing.

> If one had a database of what patients were trying, coming from all over the
> world, it looks to me like useful signals could eventually be extracted from
> the noise.

I was imagining that this takes place in a form of medical journals?

Or do you mean "milion sick monkeys in a drugstore"?

Not attacking you, but I think this experiment would do a lot of real 
damage and could have, maybe, just maybe, some positive effects. Depending 
on whom you would pay attention to, you will be either excited or 
horrified.

Right now, there are pioneers and excitement. Pioneers are cool, they 
think and quite often are above the average. Come back two years later and 
you will find "patient 5.0 institutions" on the internet, selling tap 
water. Water is optimistic case. Some hundred years ago they were selling 
uranium enriched "energy drinks" (well, sure, there were people swearing 
to feel the boost and I doubt all of them were being paid for this).

Personally, I am expecting a come back of shamans. While old shamans could 
be nice people, the new ones will just be cheap. Maybe "cheap" is the 
right keyword here.

As usually, problem of rare diseases could be solved IMHO by making an 
effort into organism modelling based on its DNA (and whatever else is a
worthy parameter). This would give some realistic and cheap (in the longer 
run at least) possibility. But, "just cheap" is easier than "realistic and 
cheap". Two ways of being cheap. Monkeys don't understand. ;-/

Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.      **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home    **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...      **
**                                                                 **
** Tomasz Rola          mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com             **


From pharos at gmail.com  Mon Jul 12 06:01:28 2010
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 07:01:28 +0100
Subject: [ExI] internet as the biggest advance in medicine ever
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1007120436450.4403@tau.ceti.pl>
References: <E2327ECB468949A08B606321ED98877F@spike>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1007120436450.4403@tau.ceti.pl>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikWX5Iy5zCwFIeSZMKTNz0BOzxRN_WPXF0Fb1hc@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/12/10, Tomasz Rola wrote:
> This is rather doubtful, at least for me (even though I am far from
>  being/becoming/considering a medic). Would you trust opinions on your
>  profesional subjects from someone who did not have one or two years of
>  calculus? He could read a lot and with no calculus he would still sit in
>  the middle of the woods. He could be great practitioner, but without big
>  enough knowledge equivalent he would not even be able to understand why
>  this worked in his case and why it may or may not work in some other
>  cases.
>
<snip>
>
>  Right now, there are pioneers and excitement. Pioneers are cool, they
>  think and quite often are above the average. Come back two years later and
>  you will find "patient 5.0 institutions" on the internet, selling tap
>  water. Water is optimistic case. Some hundred years ago they were selling
>  uranium enriched "energy drinks" (well, sure, there were people swearing
>  to feel the boost and I doubt all of them were being paid for this).
>
>  Personally, I am expecting a come back of shamans. While old shamans could
>  be nice people, the new ones will just be cheap. Maybe "cheap" is the
>  right keyword here.
>
>  As usually, problem of rare diseases could be solved IMHO by making an
>  effort into organism modelling based on its DNA (and whatever else is a
>  worthy parameter). This would give some realistic and cheap (in the longer
>  run at least) possibility. But, "just cheap" is easier than "realistic and
>  cheap". Two ways of being cheap. Monkeys don't understand. ;-/
>
>


Medical fraud is a huge business. Just look in your spam mailbox!

You have a big problem sorting out valid information from the torrent
of scams, frauds, misleading ads, exaggerated benefits,
publicity-seeking nutters or people with a book or potions to sell
you.

There are already self-help groups on the internet for specific
diseases. e.g. cancer, arthritis, old age, etc. where patients discuss
what might help each other.


BillK


From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Mon Jul 12 14:19:27 2010
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 16:19:27 +0200
Subject: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 82, Issue 13
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinXQos0f2t0CmH0dV91-sv9ihrIZEUPaosvLVjY@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1095.1278637323.10820.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<AANLkTinXQos0f2t0CmH0dV91-sv9ihrIZEUPaosvLVjY@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTilKNbXYHwtAGNhKyekNYyYcgO3ED9biKA0QIZvB@mail.gmail.com>

On 9 July 2010 04:55, Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> wrote:
> You are way out of date. ?I finally came to a solution that would get
> the cost of SBSP down to around two cents per kWh with a front end
> investment in transportation around $100 B ($60 B in lasers). ?Then
> one of the people who was helping me with the SBSP analysis told me
> about a project that looks like it will generate power at just over a
> penny a kWh *and* the front end investment is under 1% of the SBSP
> front end. ?The principal is Ed Kelly and if you Google on that name
> and Transmeta you will get the right guy.

A penny as one hundredth of a British Pound? :-/

> I am not particularly happy about it, but I am on record as saying I
> would support any energy project that looked better than what I was
> working on. ?Not going into space closes off a lot of opportunities
> but it probably doesn't matter. ?Because of the singularity I don't
> see humans being in charge beyond mid century anyway.

Why, shouldn't they have a little fun as long as they are? ;-)

-- 
Stefano Vaj



From stathisp at gmail.com  Mon Jul 12 14:52:25 2010
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 00:52:25 +1000
Subject: [ExI] New York Times piece on cryonics,
	featuring Robin Hanson & 	Peggy
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikmkHkHGvrfpnM-WNOWzKEVQD1Ux0wO07XKklS5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <201007091640.o69Ge75T023636@andromeda.ziaspace.com> 
	<AANLkTikwbp6tuYqn1EWvi2oThmufvkgLoi4qZg9RHZeD@mail.gmail.com> 
	<AANLkTikmkHkHGvrfpnM-WNOWzKEVQD1Ux0wO07XKklS5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikgQHOAXzYjASEHSiQmiGT_LOND2nVEB77zTb6v@mail.gmail.com>

2010/7/12 Michael D <michaelfd1976 at gmail.com>:
> Advocates of socialized medicine who are aslo cryonicists would do well to
> take note of the following comments in this NYT article
>
>
> "The United States is not necessarily an easy place to take up the banner of
> letting go; we?re likely to call it ?giving up,? and there is of course no
> purer expression of this attitude than the pursuit of cryonics."
>
> "Robin?s expertise extends to the economics of health care, a domain in
> which enormous amounts of money are spent on experimental procedures with
> only a small chance of extending life."
>
> "His students rarely accept this framing. ?We spend most of the semester
> talking about how people are obsessed with taking any small chance at living
> longer,? Robin says. ?And then when we get to cryonics, it?s: Well, who
> needs to live longer? What?s the point of living anyway? Why can?t we solve
> global hunger??
>
>
> As well as a recent Yahoo news article which basically villifies America for
> trying too hard to save lives, criticizing procedures that are extremely
> expensive and have little chance of success.
>
>
> Americans are treated, and overtreated, to death
> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100628/ap_on_he_me/us_med_overtreated_final_days
>
> - Michael F Dickey

At some point the entire GDP of a country would be consumed by
offering every possible medical treatment to anyone who asked for it.
Some expensive medical procedures - not necessarily cryonics - would
therefore not be covered by socialised medicine. But the same applies
to private health insurance: if you want cosmetic surgery, for
example, you have to pay for it.


-- 
Stathis Papaioannou



From thespike at satx.rr.com  Mon Jul 12 15:26:04 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 10:26:04 -0500
Subject: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 82, Issue 13
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTilKNbXYHwtAGNhKyekNYyYcgO3ED9biKA0QIZvB@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1095.1278637323.10820.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>	<AANLkTinXQos0f2t0CmH0dV91-sv9ihrIZEUPaosvLVjY@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTilKNbXYHwtAGNhKyekNYyYcgO3ED9biKA0QIZvB@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4C3B340C.8010603@satx.rr.com>

On 7/12/2010 9:19 AM, Stefano Vaj wrote:

> A penny as one hundredth of a British Pound? :-/

United Statesians informally retain "penny" for "cent."


From bbenzai at yahoo.com  Mon Jul 12 15:37:03 2010
From: bbenzai at yahoo.com (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 08:37:03 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] New York Times piece on cryonics,
	featuring Robin Hanson & Peggy
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1278936002.11479.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <77022.87917.qm@web114412.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

"trying too hard to save lives"

What kind of depressing, defeatist philosophy comes up with a phrase like that?

I've been thinking about that article, and the thing that strikes me is that nobody has said a word about the wishes of the people at the centre of the whole thing.  Don't the people doing the dying get a say?  Some of them will be happy to shuffle of this mortal coil as comfortably as possible, some will want to fight tooth and nail to the last gasp no matter what, and some will have a preference somewhere in between.  Yet here we have people presuming to make, and in some cases insisting on making, that decision for them.

Ben Zaiboc


      




From jonkc at bellsouth.net  Mon Jul 12 16:00:41 2010
From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John Clark)
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 12:00:41 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Could Thorium solve our energy problem?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTiklR9iZnp3RBeqsGBCf_FANHJM3L3lm-dkqD-JI@mail.gmail.com>
References: <201007101854.o6AIsi3m022969@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<E67EE9FA-4E11-4514-8CEF-9F72082BCDCF@bellsouth.net>
	<4C38E4EE.5040804@mac.com>
	<45F4729A-5C65-4472-A6A2-9CCA90CECA23@bellsouth.net>
	<AANLkTiklR9iZnp3RBeqsGBCf_FANHJM3L3lm-dkqD-JI@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C8900DC5-9451-4656-8A5C-1437C5D8F857@bellsouth.net>

On Jul 11, 2010, at 4:47 PM, Ryan Rawson wrote:

> Wired had an article about Thorium reactors, most if it has been
> already stated here:
> 
> http://www.wired.com/magazine/2009/12/ff_new_nukes/

From the article:

>> The real action, though, is in India and China, both of which need to satisfy an immense and growing demand for electricity. The world?s largest source of thorium, India, doesn?t have any commercial thorium reactors yet. But it has announced plans to increase its nuclear power capacity: 

In addition to India and China France is working on Thorium reactors, but for some reason they are all using solid fuel not liquid. I think that is foolish, they're just accustomed to solid fuel and don't want to try something new.

>> Critics point out that thorium?s biggest advantage ? its high efficiency ? actually presents challenges.

That remark strikes me as a rather foolish thing to say.

>>  Since the reaction is sustained for a very long time, the fuel needs special containers that are extremely durable and can stand up to corrosive salts. 
 
Fluoride salts are not corrosive, they are very stable for the same reason Teflon, another Florine compound, is stable. Florine is the most chemically reactive element known so when it reacts with something it releases a lot of energy, if you want to change that compound you must supply the same amount of energy and that isn't easy.  

The following is not from the main article but from the comment section by people I don't know:

>> Liquid fluoride thorium reactors are literally one of the top approaches for U-233 weapons material production

Untrue. Thorium reactors are not as neutron rich as the reactors we use today, it produces enough neutrons for a chain reaction but just barely; so if you start to siphon off more than trivial amounts of U-233 fuel for clandestine sinister purposes the reaction will stop and the reactor will shut down. People tend to notice that sort of thing.

And there is no "top approach" for making weapons out of U-233, nobody is approaching it at all. If you want to blow somebody up in a nuclear way there are much easier and better ways to go about it.

>> the US has detonated a number of U-233 weapons tests.

There is an internet rumor that the USA did it once sometime in the 1950's, I've never been able to confirm it. I think it unlikely, if there was a facility large enough to produce that much U-233 you'd think it would have shown up somewhere on the radar screen by now. 

>>  U-233 has nearly as low a critical mass as plutonium

U-233 critical mass is in fact 60% higher than Plutonium so you'd need more of it and it's neutron density due to spontaneous fissions is 3 times as high so it would be harder to prevent pre-detonation.  Both these facts mean that making a bomb from U-233 would be harder than making one from Plutonium which would be harder than making one from U-235. And this is ignoring the rather important fact that you'd need a two inch thick tuxedo made of lead if you expected to finish making the bomb before you died from gamma radiation. 

>>  and especially if produced in a continuous process avoiding much U-234 contamination it will be a easy to handle and fabricate material, much less tricky than Plutonium.

That is total disinformation. First of all the contaminate you have to worry about is U-232 not U-234 and despite what is said above nobody knows of a way to produce industrial quantities of U-233 for use in a bomb without that contaminant that would make it so radioactive it would be suicidal to work with, detrimental to other bomb components and easy to detect. 

 John K Clark

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100712/defdd97a/attachment.html>

From jonkc at bellsouth.net  Mon Jul 12 16:23:05 2010
From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John Clark)
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 12:23:05 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Not worth a cent
In-Reply-To: <4C3B340C.8010603@satx.rr.com>
References: <mailman.1095.1278637323.10820.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>	<AANLkTinXQos0f2t0CmH0dV91-sv9ihrIZEUPaosvLVjY@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTilKNbXYHwtAGNhKyekNYyYcgO3ED9biKA0QIZvB@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C3B340C.8010603@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <9D0985EA-8745-4179-B6DD-9048DC281048@bellsouth.net>

On Jul 12, 2010, at 11:26 AM, Damien Broderick wrote:
> 
> United Statesians informally retain "penny" for "cent."

And you know there must be something fundamentally wrong with a government that can't make money even when they quite literally own the mint. As of 2006 it cost the government 1.75 cents to make each one cent coin and 7 cents to make each 5 cent nickel coin.

There is a good way to know when it's time to stop making a coin, if you place one on the sidewalk in a busy city and nobody bothers to pick it up then stop making it.

 John K Clark 

 


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100712/8bf6ed57/attachment.html>

From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Mon Jul 12 16:22:46 2010
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 18:22:46 +0200
Subject: [ExI] medical marijuana
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimZwRzifg8bj9HHF06bZ_yci9-LBRRxn5NwX2k4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3674DAB8B4C44232AD1E8CEAD6949F08@spike>
	<AANLkTin-sZcVn1JEafZczCY36nOTMXIrZBHWy4rynBEM@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimZwRzifg8bj9HHF06bZ_yci9-LBRRxn5NwX2k4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimP6SC4V0yy_O0mGnaL2Js7LZTpwBnB-7jji96N@mail.gmail.com>

On 7 July 2010 07:43, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:
> Quote from DEA:
> There are no FDA-approved medications that are smoked.

And for good cause, I would say.

As much as I may dislike prohibitionism and the DEA, any kind of smoke
produced by combustion is hardly the healthiest way to administer any
substance.

Just think of carbon oxide.

And, for that matter, I find slightly irritating the temptation to
pretend that more or less obviously recreational uses of a given drug,
as I tend to consider all smoking habits, are being taken for some
vaguely "therapeutical" purpose.

No self-respecting Cohiba or crack smoker would ever think of doing
anything along such lines...

-- 
Stefano Vaj


From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Mon Jul 12 16:41:13 2010
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 18:41:13 +0200
Subject: [ExI] SBSP was Ed Kelly and Transmeta
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinIuEDI0XmVzUNtju9sReRQ0YzTflJQEwgrmW_T@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTinIuEDI0XmVzUNtju9sReRQ0YzTflJQEwgrmW_T@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimOrLoGLU6Cld3AsxcoXYboNGLhWRDokf8enmYn@mail.gmail.com>

On 9 July 2010 17:11, Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 5:00 AM, ?BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:
>> I am also doubtful about how much weight to place on secret blue-sky
>> projects that are virtually just a few Excel spreadsheets and some
>> PowerPoint slides. Computers are full of these proposals that will
>> never enter the real world. I would wait and see whether this new tech
>> ever gets off the ground before relying on it too much.
>
> Point taken. ?However, I didn't lightly abandon something I had worked
> on for years and finally had a solution that made sense from both the
> physics and the economics.

Mmhhh. Science is easy. Engineering? Why, it may or may not be a big deal.

With economics it starts getting complicate.

Law, inertia, cultural resistance and plain old stupidity and biases
then come into play.

I am not an IP lawyer myself, but you would be surprised to see how
many inventions or processes are never implemented (sometimes, not
even patented) that would make good engineering *and* economic sense.

This is why transhumanism is crucial. A cultural revolution was
necessary to shift the paradigm from hunting-and-gathering to
something else, another one is required now to bring things to the
next level.

-- 
Stefano Vaj



From dan_ust at yahoo.com  Mon Jul 12 17:18:05 2010
From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan)
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 10:18:05 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Not worth a cent
In-Reply-To: <9D0985EA-8745-4179-B6DD-9048DC281048@bellsouth.net>
References: <mailman.1095.1278637323.10820.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<AANLkTinXQos0f2t0CmH0dV91-sv9ihrIZEUPaosvLVjY@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTilKNbXYHwtAGNhKyekNYyYcgO3ED9biKA0QIZvB@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C3B340C.8010603@satx.rr.com>
	<9D0985EA-8745-4179-B6DD-9048DC281048@bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <443594.52020.qm@web30104.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Alternatively, it could be viewed as it's time to get the government out of the 
minting business if not completely out of the money business.

Regards,

Dan



________________________________
From: John Clark <jonkc at bellsouth.net>
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Mon, July 12, 2010 12:23:05 PM
Subject: [ExI] Not worth a cent


On Jul 12, 2010, at 11:26 AM, Damien Broderick wrote:

>United Statesians informally retain "penny" for "cent."
>
And you know there must be something fundamentally wrong with a government that 
can't make money even when they quite literally own the mint. As of 2006 it cost 
the government 1.75 cents to make each one cent coin and 7 cents to make each 5 
cent nickel coin.

There is a good way to know when it's time to stop making a coin, if you place 
one on the sidewalk in a busy city and nobody bothers to pick it up then stop 
making it.

?John K Clark?


      
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100712/5fde1ec1/attachment.html>

From michaelfd1976 at gmail.com  Mon Jul 12 17:21:41 2010
From: michaelfd1976 at gmail.com (Michael D)
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 13:21:41 -0400
Subject: [ExI] New York Times piece on cryonics,
	featuring Robin Hanson & 	Peggy
In-Reply-To: <77022.87917.qm@web114412.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.1.1278936002.11479.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<77022.87917.qm@web114412.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTiloGHt5M-R5XJb02ttI-Wtdhpq72YdYF9ISJLEA@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jul 12, 2010 at 11:37 AM, Ben Zaiboc <bbenzai at yahoo.com> wrote:

> "trying too hard to save lives"
>
> What kind of depressing, defeatist philosophy comes up with a phrase like
> that?


Actually I came up with that because I was paraphrasing the vicious theme of
that article, where it is essentially criticizing American health care for
trying to hard to save lives and american patients for wanting too much to
fight and try to live. I don't think they actually say that in the article,
it would make the absurdity of their point too clear.

>
>
> I've been thinking about that article, and the thing that strikes me is
> that nobody has said a word about the wishes of the people


Exactly my problem with it, we have a very clear word that describes the
idea of forcing someone to die who does not want to, it's called murder. The
fact that this is discussed so coldly and dismissively of the desires of
opinions of the patients themselves is utterly disturbing.  With the recent
passing of Obama's health care reform here in the US and the new wave of
articles like these I think a clear and ominous trend is arising - the
dismissal of the expensive desire to live in the elderly in favor of some
abstract utilitarian good where we all shut up, give up, and just let
ourselves die. That is why alleged transhumanists / extropians who are
advocates of socialized medicine should take note, thier desire to live is
not only disgustingly selfish by these people's standards, but will
eventually be outlawed if these wannabe social tyrants have their way - and
unfortunately they make up the majority of opinions on the matter.

Michael F Dickey
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100712/34937931/attachment.html>

From michaelfd1976 at gmail.com  Mon Jul 12 17:14:05 2010
From: michaelfd1976 at gmail.com (Michael D)
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 13:14:05 -0400
Subject: [ExI] New York Times piece on cryonics,
	featuring Robin Hanson & 	Peggy
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikgQHOAXzYjASEHSiQmiGT_LOND2nVEB77zTb6v@mail.gmail.com>
References: <201007091640.o69Ge75T023636@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<AANLkTikwbp6tuYqn1EWvi2oThmufvkgLoi4qZg9RHZeD@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikmkHkHGvrfpnM-WNOWzKEVQD1Ux0wO07XKklS5@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikgQHOAXzYjASEHSiQmiGT_LOND2nVEB77zTb6v@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinV2Jygx9iXcv04uhEXzC7KFzmS_4rr5AV9D-YC@mail.gmail.com>

>
>
> At some point the entire GDP of a country would be consumed by
> offering every possible medical treatment to anyone who asked for it.
> Some expensive medical procedures - not necessarily cryonics - would
> therefore not be covered by socialised medicine. But the same applies
> to private health insurance: if you want cosmetic surgery, for
> example, you have to pay for it.
>
>
> --
> Stathis Papaioannou
>
>
>

Yes that is true, but the problem is that in many, if not most,
implementations of socialized medicine, private health care is just simply
illegal. Since socialized medicine is often implemented in order to create a
fair medical field, where it is unfair specifically that those who can
afford it can still get to buy better care, such procedures being offered by
private medicine are outlawed.  Canada's system was of this sort until
recently when it again decided to allow private care. Where socialized
medicines goal is to provide the best care possible to as many people as
possible, private care will still generally be allowed.  Where it is
implemented to make sure no one 'unfairly' gets better care merely because
they can afford it, private care is strictly outlawed. Socilaized health
care is more often than not egalitarian, not utilitarian.

Michael F Dickey
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100712/22733dbf/attachment.html>

From nanogirl at halcyon.com  Mon Jul 12 18:28:31 2010
From: nanogirl at halcyon.com (Gina Miller)
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 12:28:31 -0600
Subject: [ExI] My "Lazarus" Nanotechnology graphic novel interview
In-Reply-To: <fabe991a14a8e46bbbc61cdcf8f7b81b.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
References: <496628DDD079468CABB1F7ACEE03A5B6@3DBOXXW4850>
	<fabe991a14a8e46bbbc61cdcf8f7b81b.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
Message-ID: <A0065E96BFEB468B9A2B3CEF2F1C998C@3DBOXXW4850>

Thank you. That is good to hear! I appreciate your taking the time to read 
it.
Gina "Nanogirl" Miller
http://nanogirl.com/author.html


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "MB" <mbb386 at main.nc.us>
To: "ExI chat list" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Sunday, July 11, 2010 1:14 PM
Subject: Re: [ExI] My "Lazarus" Nanotechnology graphic novel interview


>
> Very cool, Gina!  Enjoyed the article. :)
>
> Regards,
> MB
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> 



From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Mon Jul 12 18:33:11 2010
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 20:33:11 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Belief in maths
In-Reply-To: <467131.17120.qm@web114415.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.1047.1278477872.10820.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<467131.17120.qm@web114415.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTilbK3B7zs0fBcpTU0swt4pXHY9UbhPR3ihf_J97@mail.gmail.com>

On 7 July 2010 10:00, Ben Zaiboc <bbenzai at yahoo.com> wrote:
> The truth of the statement "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" is not a matter of opinion. ?It's a logical fact. ?If a person decides it's not true, they're discarding logic altogether, and simply can't be argued with.

"Logic" is overestimated. While teapots orbiting Mars do not have any
real impact on one's worldview, one is well entitled to shift the
burden of proof on monotheists simply because, as Nietzsche clearly
illustrated, the very idea of a Jahv?/Allah/Christian God is a
cultural product whose consequences and implications are unacceptable
for some of us.

Call it a matter of faith... :-)

-- 
Stefano Vaj



From rtomek at ceti.pl  Mon Jul 12 18:37:29 2010
From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola)
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 20:37:29 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] internet as the biggest advance in medicine ever
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikWX5Iy5zCwFIeSZMKTNz0BOzxRN_WPXF0Fb1hc@mail.gmail.com>
References: <E2327ECB468949A08B606321ED98877F@spike>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1007120436450.4403@tau.ceti.pl>
	<AANLkTikWX5Iy5zCwFIeSZMKTNz0BOzxRN_WPXF0Fb1hc@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1007121741420.30345@tau.ceti.pl>

On Mon, 12 Jul 2010, BillK wrote:

> On 7/12/10, Tomasz Rola wrote:
> > This is rather doubtful, at least for me (even though I am far from
> >  being/becoming/considering a medic). Would you trust opinions on your
> >  profesional subjects from someone who did not have one or two years of
> >  calculus? He could read a lot and with no calculus he would still sit in
> >  the middle of the woods. He could be great practitioner, but without big
> >  enough knowledge equivalent he would not even be able to understand why
> >  this worked in his case and why it may or may not work in some other
> >  cases.
> >

> <snip>
> 
> Medical fraud is a huge business. Just look in your spam mailbox!
> 
> You have a big problem sorting out valid information from the torrent
> of scams, frauds, misleading ads, exaggerated benefits,
> publicity-seeking nutters or people with a book or potions to sell
> you.

Yep, I have to fight so hard every day, to not enlarge my rick (or kick, 
or f1ck, or...). But it helps to remember, if I did it, they would send me 
even more photos of those princesses, and in my country one can only marry 
once at a time. So I don't want to break the hearts of the others and 
because of this I reject enlargement (but gently). Then, they send me 
those financial offers - aha! another trick to make me more manly and put 
me in a situation when I will have to break hearts!

But seriously, I'm afraid medical scam of today will look benign tomorrow. 
Nowadays, there are established institutions that can refute claims made 
by all kinds of false researchers. So all that goes through the fishing 
net is rather small, "enlargement medicine" (there is no law that can 
protect stupid people from believing whatever dream they want come true).

> There are already self-help groups on the internet for specific
> diseases. e.g. cancer, arthritis, old age, etc. where patients discuss
> what might help each other.

I am all for this. But I somewhat doubt that internet and urgent need can 
produce better results than studying and practicing a subject for longer 
time.

Guys finding lithium treatment for ALS were very, very lucky pioneers. And 
as I wrote, they were thinking by themselves, learning and studying by 
themselves. I can drink for them and their continuing good fortune. They 
will need a lot of it, because, as article says, they have tried many 
other means with either nothing or negative outcome.

After some sleep, I have come to my own list of possibly the best medical 
inventions (up to now, at least). In no particular order:

- use of chloroform
- libraries full of books and journals
- the whole line of devices and procedures used for looking and operating 
inside of patient (roentgen, mri, ultrasonograph, arthroscopic surgery)

Internet per se is not on the list, but for me it is just an extension of 
a library. And, as in ancient pre-internet times, people were discussing 
ideas by writing books and articles, now they use internet too. Nothing 
that couldn't be done without it, it is just easier and faster, I think.

Well, ok, there is one thing - robotic surgery via the net (and directly, 
too). Happens more and more often, great idea. But it could be done with 
dedicated cables, too, so again internet simply makes it easier (there 
were TV transmissions across continents in times where computer was 
considered something fancy). But, actually, this is not internet anymore - 
just some "internet 2" thing.

Gene therapy, when it finally starts delivering, will probably easily 
make it to the top.

Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.      **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home    **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...      **
**                                                                 **
** Tomasz Rola          mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com             **


From spike66 at att.net  Mon Jul 12 18:54:30 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (Gregory Jones)
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 11:54:30 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] internet as the biggest advance in medicine ever
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1007121741420.30345@tau.ceti.pl>
Message-ID: <806215.65455.qm@web81505.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

?
?
> Medical fraud is a huge business. Just look in your spam mailbox!
> 
> You have a big problem sorting out valid information from the torrent
> of scams, frauds, misleading ads, exaggerated benefits,
> publicity-seeking nutters or people with a book or potions to sell
> you...? BillK
?
Ja.? Let me refine my idea a bit.
?
We take all the text people write to internet support groups, reduce the data to numbers and create from that a huge matrix that has patient ID, the medications they take, and the vitals.? From that, the sufferers scan thru and try to find patterns or ideas for treatment.? 
?
BillK's comment goes towards the notion that this actually enables?medical fraud.? For instance, the Embiggen?company had some mysterious potion which they were actually selling for a completely different purpose, but they?decide to go to the Alzheimer's site and put phony patients in there who took Embiggen and their?Alzheimers disappears.? Suddenly the market for Embiggen explodes, and the Embiggen producers are rich and missing.
?
So how do we create the data matrix and make some effort to keep out most of the charlatans?? Is it possible?? Ideas?? Register the matrix users and have them monitored by the medics?
?
spike
?
?
?
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100712/38a78a81/attachment.html>

From sjatkins at mac.com  Mon Jul 12 19:11:11 2010
From: sjatkins at mac.com (samantha)
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 12:11:11 -0700
Subject: [ExI] SBSP was Ed Kelly and Transmeta
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimOrLoGLU6Cld3AsxcoXYboNGLhWRDokf8enmYn@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTinIuEDI0XmVzUNtju9sReRQ0YzTflJQEwgrmW_T@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimOrLoGLU6Cld3AsxcoXYboNGLhWRDokf8enmYn@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4C3B68CF.7070903@mac.com>

Stefano Vaj wrote:
> On 9 July 2010 17:11, Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> wrote:
>   
>> On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 5:00 AM,  BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:
>>     
>>> I am also doubtful about how much weight to place on secret blue-sky
>>> projects that are virtually just a few Excel spreadsheets and some
>>> PowerPoint slides. Computers are full of these proposals that will
>>> never enter the real world. I would wait and see whether this new tech
>>> ever gets off the ground before relying on it too much.
>>>       
>> Point taken.  However, I didn't lightly abandon something I had worked
>> on for years and finally had a solution that made sense from both the
>> physics and the economics.
>>     
>
> Mmhhh. Science is easy. Engineering? Why, it may or may not be a big deal.
>
> With economics it starts getting complicate.
>
> Law, inertia, cultural resistance and plain old stupidity and biases
> then come into play.
>
> I am not an IP lawyer myself, but you would be surprised to see how
> many inventions or processes are never implemented (sometimes, not
> even patented) that would make good engineering *and* economic sense.
>   

Ideas are cheap and plentiful, especially in their early rather 
undeveloped form.  Developed ideas requiring only inputs of money, time, 
work and further real (versus only in your head) refinement to make 
realized in actual products and services are a good deal less so.  Ideas 
that are brought all the way into reality in a way that generates more 
value than was consumed in their realization (profit) are the rarest of 
all. 
> This is why transhumanism is crucial. A cultural revolution was
> necessary to shift the paradigm from hunting-and-gathering to
> something else, another one is required now to bring things to the
> next level.
>   

Please say more about what that next level is beyond what has been done 
today.  That is the next step.  I do not see that we are generally all 
that clear on that but instead have a a bunch of rather disparate notions.

- s


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100712/bf18c0a6/attachment.html>

From thespike at satx.rr.com  Mon Jul 12 19:21:32 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 14:21:32 -0500
Subject: [ExI] New York Times piece on cryonics,
 featuring Robin Hanson & 	Peggy
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTiloGHt5M-R5XJb02ttI-Wtdhpq72YdYF9ISJLEA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1278936002.11479.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>	<77022.87917.qm@web114412.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<AANLkTiloGHt5M-R5XJb02ttI-Wtdhpq72YdYF9ISJLEA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4C3B6B3C.5020004@satx.rr.com>

On 7/12/2010 12:21 PM, Michael D wrote:

> Exactly my problem with it, we have a very clear word that describes the
> idea of forcing someone to die who does not want to, it's called murder.

Cryonics does not force anyone to die, nor does forbidding cryonics 
force anyone to die. Cryonics clients are, by definition, *dead* already.

Damien Broderick


From sjatkins at mac.com  Mon Jul 12 19:31:05 2010
From: sjatkins at mac.com (samantha)
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 12:31:05 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Belief in maths (was mind body dualism)
In-Reply-To: <COL112-W65CCCA05B4420DE21D3CFF9DB70@phx.gbl>
References: <mailman.1030.1278386441.10820.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<348701.85627.qm@web114406.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<AANLkTinnmG8JEnpSlDmoABZhknPEgsxQxAvgAGmJwZzg@mail.gmail.com>
	<COL112-W3162C59433C84E22F208BC9DB20@phx.gbl>
	<4C33DCF5.3010607@mac.com>
	<COL112-W37769A3E3F02ED45A43D3A9DB30@phx.gbl>
	<AANLkTim-CsxW0Z3uKslWT6GouyBHB9GFbd-Ao7dhPoma@mail.gmail.com>
	<COL112-W65CCCA05B4420DE21D3CFF9DB70@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <4C3B6D79.1010608@mac.com>

darren shawn greer wrote:
>
>  
> 2010/7/7 darren shawn greer <dgreer_68 at hotmail.com 
> <mailto:dgreer_68 at hotmail.com>>
>
>     >Lack of evidence is a perfectly fine reason to not think
>     something is so.  If it also has logical inconsistency problems
>     and/or has no explanatory theory that is sufficiently sound then
>     that is more reason to disbelief it.<
>
>
>     It is such an important discussion, for secular humanists and
>     religious humanists are constantly having this argument. "Absence
>     of evidence is not evidence of absence" and "It most certainly is!"
>
Is there really anything to say further though?  If there are no 
criteria for when it is remotely rational to accept a belief that are 
agreed upon by the people having a discussion then they ight as well be 
doing something else than this "discussion".  It is guaranteed to be 
fruitless.
>
> >Indeed most posthumanists could not care less instead of the 
> "evidence of non-existence". The very >concept of the monotheistic 
> God, e.g., is simply not palatable, irrespective of whether it be 
> "true" or not,>and whatever "true" might mean in the first place.
>  
> Thanks, for that was my original point, that the argument is 
> polarizing and pointless and zaps useful energies and that 
> collectively as a species we'd be better off abandoning it altogether.
If we haven't clarity of mind and plunk enough to deal with such grand 
widely held fairy tales then why would we expect to make much difference 
anywhere?  What I mean is that if we can't unify a rational viewpoint 
even for ourselves then what business do we have decrying irrationality 
or extolling rationality?  What is our basis for hoping for a better 
world? 

>  My belief is that in a (perhaps remote) future the concept of god as 
> we currently define it -- ie. the Supreme Being-- will cease to even 
> have meaning.
Why put it off to the remote future except out of cowardice?

> However, someone else made the point that it is currently very 
> relevant, as we see alot of violence and political strife because of 
> it. May be, but I no longer argue about my meta-physical beliefs or 
> yours or even think much about those subjects at all.
That is a pity because without it you cannot fully integrate your 
thinking and doing on the basis of it.
> I do however spend alot of time semantically defending my position 
> that theism vs athiesm is a losing proposition on both sides, as long 
> as one is trying to convince the other of the correctness of their own 
> belief.

I am not so big on trying to convince others as I am on understanding 
when it is valid to consider something true to the best of one's 
knowledge and evidence and applying that as widely as possible.   I gave 
up decades ago attempting to convince people who have no standards at 
all to appeal or adhere to in the process of discussing a subject.  
Getting them to agree with me would be meaningless if it has no depth of 
basis in them.   

I once led an intelligent, honest fundamentalist friend step by step, 
starting from what she did believe to be true outside fundamentalist 
conclusions, to see clearly that her beliefs were highly inconsistent 
and contradictory and the bible was filled also with such 
contradictions, inconsistencies also and with many horrid things.  She 
saw perfectly clearly that much of what she believed to be true could 
not be true.   Do you know what she said at the end?  It was what 
persuaded me to not do that again.  "Thank you for your patience and 
even, calm, fair discussion with me.  I learned a lot and see that you 
are largely right in what you said at the beginning.  But this is what I 
believe and I like believing it so I am going to keep doing so."


- samantha

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100712/e257b827/attachment.html>

From spike66 at att.net  Mon Jul 12 19:07:47 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (Gregory Jones)
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 12:07:47 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] medical marijuana
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimP6SC4V0yy_O0mGnaL2Js7LZTpwBnB-7jji96N@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <619642.12227.qm@web81504.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



--- On Mon, 7/12/10, Stefano Vaj <stefano.vaj at gmail.com> wrote:
?
>...As much as I may dislike prohibitionism and the DEA, any kind of smoke
produced by combustion is hardly the healthiest way to administer any
substance.
?

Ja agreed, but smoking?a plant may be the cheapest way to administer any drug.? The alternative means of administering drugs are tightly?controlled by governments and the medical establishment, putting?the refined?medications?out of the reach of many, if not most, people.
?
The USian recent health reform bill?did not fix that problem, but rather may have made it worse.? The health insurance companies must raise their prices to compensate for the new requirement that they cover previously-uninsurable patients.? It requires?Americans to buy health insurance, which most will not do (the fine for not buying?is cheaper than the insurance), which means they will avoid doctors and hospitals to avoid the fine.? 
?
So instead of getting the safer refined drugs,?many will get none.? The option of supplying drugs?in a cheap smoked form may be better than?the alternative, which is nothing.
?
spike
?
?
? 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100712/ea100817/attachment.html>

From thespike at satx.rr.com  Mon Jul 12 20:12:04 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 15:12:04 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Belief in maths (was mind body dualism)
In-Reply-To: <4C3B6D79.1010608@mac.com>
References: <mailman.1030.1278386441.10820.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>	<348701.85627.qm@web114406.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>	<AANLkTinnmG8JEnpSlDmoABZhknPEgsxQxAvgAGmJwZzg@mail.gmail.com>	<COL112-W3162C59433C84E22F208BC9DB20@phx.gbl>	<4C33DCF5.3010607@mac.com>	<COL112-W37769A3E3F02ED45A43D3A9DB30@phx.gbl>	<AANLkTim-CsxW0Z3uKslWT6GouyBHB9GFbd-Ao7dhPoma@mail.gmail.com>	<COL112-W65CCCA05B4420DE21D3CFF9DB70@phx.gbl>
	<4C3B6D79.1010608@mac.com>
Message-ID: <4C3B7714.9040203@satx.rr.com>

On 7/12/2010 2:31 PM, samantha wrote:

> I once led an intelligent, honest fundamentalist friend step by step,
> starting from what she did believe to be true outside fundamentalist
> conclusions, to see clearly that her beliefs were highly inconsistent
> and contradictory and the bible was filled also with such
> contradictions, inconsistencies also and with many horrid things.  She
> saw perfectly clearly that much of what she believed to be true could
> not be true.   Do you know what she said at the end?  It was what
> persuaded me to not do that again.  "Thank you for your patience and
> even, calm, fair discussion with me.  I learned a lot and see that you
> are largely right in what you said at the beginning.  But this is what I
> believe and I like believing it so I am going to keep doing so."

Similar experience here, but more horrifying because I wasn't all that 
patient, even or calm (from my book THE LAST MORTAL GENERATION):
=========================
I was once introduced to a New Age guru whom an acquaintance assured me 
was charming and spiritually wise. I found him likable, as advertised, 
sickly sentimental and utterly gullible. We had a very long and painful 
conversation, interspersed by frantic cups of tea. Each statement he 
made was weirder and more credulous than the item preceding it; the 
world was run on principles of numerology, and you can change traffic 
lights to green by wishing hard as you approach them, and aromas cured 
everything that ailed your body (except for the grave intestinal illness 
that had almost killed him a few months earlier, fixed in hospital at 
the last moment by huge doses of cortisone - which he ungratefully and 
in retrospect dubbed `toxic chemicals' forced upon him by a crudely 
reductionist science), and the iris was connected to da hip-bone, and 
UFOs were driven by little gray aliens, and Sai Baba could levitate and 
pour endless quantities of dust out of his open hand and vomit up gold 
phalluses a foot long, and crystals had magical powers, and the Urantia 
Book was the source of all wisdom, such as the passages about how humans 
had evolved through the stages of Green Men and Purple Men and Blue Men, 
and...

At first I listened to this gibberish with wonderment, as if privileged 
in an anthropological way to observe a rare sub-culture of Pre-rational 
Humankind. After a while (shame on me!) I gratuitously began to lecture 
the poor man, in an increasingly frenetic and cross-disciplinary way, on 
alternative explanations for these odd phenomena, the sort that current 
science might put forward. I ranted on, delivering myself of cognitive 
science explanations for just why he found such unsubstantiated hogwash 
so believable. He reeled away hours later in a bruised mental condition, 
I gather, and I have never seen him since.

You might wonder, as I do: why did I feel impelled to *set him 
straight*? Leave aside whether I have any warrant for thinking that my 
book-larnin' gave me a grip on truth superior to his woolly 
word-of-mouth subcultural melange; of course I do. But I don't stand on 
street corners preaching godlessness to passing Mormons. This urge only 
comes over me when I find myself in a room with one or more black 
holists whose views affront me in their inanity and intellectual 
poverty. Or, more importantly - not just their views, but their ways of 
deploying, testing, applying and revising those views.

Despite appearances, I am not especially dogmatic about any particular 
sub-sections of my world view. Like many intellectuals struggling to 
keep their heads above the torrent of new books and journal articles and 
Internet postings, I modify my opinions about quantum theory and 
cosmology and the structure of mind and society according to whichever 
brilliantly-argued source I read last. But (no credit to me in this 
fact, of course) those somewhat flexible views form a kind of 
mutually-bracing geodesic structure of some power and authority. So 
maybe they generate Dawkins-style memes that insist on broadcasting 
themselves and fighting opposing memes to the death.

===========================
Damien Broderick


From jonkc at bellsouth.net  Mon Jul 12 20:10:19 2010
From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John Clark)
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 16:10:19 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Selective attention test
In-Reply-To: <619642.12227.qm@web81504.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <619642.12227.qm@web81504.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <FF02FBD4-2CE8-4AC4-BAFC-4E24BE27E44E@bellsouth.net>

Try to observe and count the correct number of times the people in white pass the basketball.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJG698U2Mvo

  John K Clark

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100712/0c43fcd5/attachment.html>

From spike66 at att.net  Mon Jul 12 20:13:59 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (Gregory Jones)
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 13:13:59 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Belief in maths (was mind body dualism)
Message-ID: <50355.11803.qm@web81501.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



--- On Mon, 7/12/10, samantha <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:
?
>...She saw perfectly clearly that much of what she believed to be true could not be true. ? Do you know what she said at the end?? It was what persuaded me to not do that again.? "Thank you for your patience and even, calm, fair discussion with me.? I learned a lot and see that you are largely right in what you said at the beginning.? But this is what I believe and I like believing it so I am going to keep doing so."? - samantha
?
"The man convinced against his will 
Is of the same opinion still."
?
Interesting commentary, one to which I can sure relate.? The difference between your friend and me is that I had no choice.? I liked what I once believed, wanted desperately to keep believing, family pressure to keep believing, but found that being convinced against my will changed my opinion against my will.? I had no choice: I could not believe what I did not believe.? I wanted to, but couldn't.
?
Question please Samantha: how do some minds tolerate cognitive dissonance, and others like mine, tolerate none at all?? Why do some minds work like hers and other minds work like mine?
?
spike
?
?
?
?

?
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100712/202a89b0/attachment.html>

From dan_ust at yahoo.com  Mon Jul 12 20:49:11 2010
From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan)
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 13:49:11 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Selective attention test
In-Reply-To: <FF02FBD4-2CE8-4AC4-BAFC-4E24BE27E44E@bellsouth.net>
References: <619642.12227.qm@web81504.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<FF02FBD4-2CE8-4AC4-BAFC-4E24BE27E44E@bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <606993.77527.qm@web30101.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I lost count after the guy in the costume showed up. I don't want to cheat, but 
was the point the distraction?

Regards,

Dan



________________________________
From: John Clark <jonkc at bellsouth.net>
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Mon, July 12, 2010 4:10:19 PM
Subject: [ExI] Selective attention test


Try to observe and count the correct number of times the people in white pass 
the basketball.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJG698U2Mvo 

??John K Clark


      
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100712/a0c23f21/attachment.html>

From wingcat at pacbell.net  Mon Jul 12 20:56:40 2010
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 13:56:40 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] medical marijuana
Message-ID: <26743.38175.qm@web81605.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

--- On Mon, 7/12/10, Gregory Jones <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> --- On Mon, 7/12/10, Stefano Vaj <stefano.vaj at gmail.com> wrote:
> >...As much as I may dislike prohibitionism and the DEA, any kind of smoke
> > produced by combustion is hardly the healthiest way to administer any
> > substance.
> 
> Ja agreed, but smoking?a plant may be the cheapest way to administer any drug.

Cheaper by dint of poorer quality.  However, a drug of poor enough quality
that it directly contributes toward killing its patients is worse than
nothing.



From thespike at satx.rr.com  Mon Jul 12 21:38:05 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 16:38:05 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Selective attention test
In-Reply-To: <FF02FBD4-2CE8-4AC4-BAFC-4E24BE27E44E@bellsouth.net>
References: <619642.12227.qm@web81504.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<FF02FBD4-2CE8-4AC4-BAFC-4E24BE27E44E@bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <4C3B8B3D.1060307@satx.rr.com>

On 7/12/2010 3:10 PM, John Clark wrote:

> Try to observe and count the correct number of times the people in white
> pass the basketball.

There were people in white? I could only see a gorilla. (I guess that's 
selective attention for yuh.)

Damien Broderick



From natasha at natasha.cc  Mon Jul 12 23:23:49 2010
From: natasha at natasha.cc (natasha at natasha.cc)
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 19:23:49 -0400
Subject: [ExI] New York Times piece on cryonics,
	featuring Robin Hanson	&  Peggy
In-Reply-To: <4C3B6B3C.5020004@satx.rr.com>
References: <mailman.1.1278936002.11479.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<77022.87917.qm@web114412.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<AANLkTiloGHt5M-R5XJb02ttI-Wtdhpq72YdYF9ISJLEA@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C3B6B3C.5020004@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <20100712192349.5wfgzv7q8go0s0cg@webmail.natasha.cc>

Quoting Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com>:

> Cryonics does not force anyone to die, nor does forbidding cryonics
> force anyone to die. Cryonics clients are, by definition, *dead*
> already.

Cryonics patients are "suspended, not, by definition, *dead*.  It is  
true that a legal "death certificate" must be made and signed by an  
attending physician, medical examiner or coroner, but according to  
cryonics, the person is suspended.

Best,
Natasha




From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Mon Jul 12 23:02:12 2010
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 16:02:12 -0700
Subject: [ExI] internet as the biggest advance in medicine ever
In-Reply-To: <806215.65455.qm@web81505.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1007121741420.30345@tau.ceti.pl>
	<806215.65455.qm@web81505.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTil5ku1sBqliMs11OoROe7-fgpsxxtC0me5GvsAS@mail.gmail.com>

2010/7/12 Gregory Jones <spike66 at att.net>

>
> So how do we create the data matrix and make some effort to keep out most of the charlatans?? Is it possible?? Ideas?? Register the matrix users and have them monitored by the medics?
>

### What you ask is not really a medical question but a fundamental
problem in epistemology - who do we trust?

You might want to ask yourself who do you trust, under what
circumstances, and is your trust justified? Presumably, you trust your
grocer not to sell you tainted veggies, to the point of actually
eating them without first cooking them to death. Some persons might
trust Mr Obama to want to act in their best interest. Some of common
formst of trust are justified, others (due to diverse human emotional
and cognitive deficiencies) are not. There appear to be methods of
social construction and individual cognition that reliably produce
justifiable trusting relationships between parties, and there are
biases that result in unjustified trust. And then there are of course
individual differences between people and societies in terms of their
ability to use the effective methods and embody effective
constructions for trust-building. This of course leads to differential
outcomes between individuals and societies, outcomes related to both
insufficient and misplaced trust.

So, "Who should we trust?" is a big question, and there are big
obstacles to answering it. A clue where to look for answers should
come from realizing that all trust is a network effect, the result of
interactions of independent, non-equal nodes in varying topologies of
information exchange. One versed in the science of computer networks
may have here an advantage over naive observers, at least in terms of
being able to identify from first principles the network topologies
and protocols likely to work better than others.

Once such technical issues are resolved, other participants might need
to tackle the normative issues, such as "Is it acceptable to have some
stupid losers waste money and lives when they buy snake oil, if this
is the price for allowing the rest of us the best chance for learning
about and obtaining the best medicine possible?", or maybe "We should
enable a huge bureaucracy to give us the feeling that we are
protecting the defenseless [inser victim group here] from ruthless
exploitation, even if it means slowing medical progress and hurting us
all in the long term".

But my prediction is that, should we try to discuss the technical
details of justifiable trust-building in networks as applied to
medicine, we would end with the same discussion we had here before
many times.

Rafal

PS. Of course I am for abolishing all drug prescription laws, medical
licensure and the FDA, since these do not meet the technical criteria
that trustworthy institutions have to meet.



From michaelfd1976 at gmail.com  Tue Jul 13 00:34:30 2010
From: michaelfd1976 at gmail.com (Michael D)
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 20:34:30 -0400
Subject: [ExI] New York Times piece on cryonics,
	featuring Robin Hanson & 	Peggy
In-Reply-To: <4C3B6B3C.5020004@satx.rr.com>
References: <mailman.1.1278936002.11479.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<77022.87917.qm@web114412.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<AANLkTiloGHt5M-R5XJb02ttI-Wtdhpq72YdYF9ISJLEA@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C3B6B3C.5020004@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikngwiZQEUe5-91hFDVF9HiA9o8QVj2BBw7WJKJ@mail.gmail.com>

You are ignoring the context of the discusion, my comment was in relation to
stopping treatment for diseases that people might otherwise want because
others feel those treatments have too little chance of success. That is
indeed forcing someone to die against their will. Forcibly preventing a
potentially life saving medical procedure from being performed on a patient
who voluntarily desires it pays for it out of pocket is indistinguishable
from murder. The obvious connection to be made is that cryonics is also a
treatment that has little chance of success (in these people's eyes) and
thus a waste of money from the perspective of a social tyrant. And should
the validity of cryogenic suspension be proven, then yes forbidding someone
from getting it is as much murder as forbidding CPR would be. Whether you
call someone suspended, dead, or potentially-alive I don't care and is not
important to the topic of this discussion - the threat that socialized
medical care poses to procedurs that are percieved to have little chance of
success yet cost lots of money.

- Michael F Dickey

On Mon, Jul 12, 2010 at 3:21 PM, Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com>wrote:

> On 7/12/2010 12:21 PM, Michael D wrote:
>
> Exactly my problem with it, we have a very clear word that describes the
>> idea of forcing someone to die who does not want to, it's called murder.
>>
>
> Cryonics does not force anyone to die, nor does forbidding cryonics force
> anyone to die. Cryonics clients are, by definition, *dead* already.
>
> Damien Broderick
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100712/c94cff63/attachment.html>

From jonkc at bellsouth.net  Tue Jul 13 00:37:02 2010
From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John Clark)
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 20:37:02 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Selective attention test
In-Reply-To: <4C3B8B3D.1060307@satx.rr.com>
References: <619642.12227.qm@web81504.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<FF02FBD4-2CE8-4AC4-BAFC-4E24BE27E44E@bellsouth.net>
	<4C3B8B3D.1060307@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <1DC57CB4-7CCD-43A6-98A6-C586BAF3D22F@bellsouth.net>

On Jul 12, 2010, at 5:38 PM, Damien Broderick wrote:

> There were people in white? I could only see a gorilla. (I guess that's selective attention for yuh.)

OK, but see if you can spot the gorilla this time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGQmdoK_ZfY

  John K Clark
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100712/fce131da/attachment.html>

From thespike at satx.rr.com  Tue Jul 13 01:18:42 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 20:18:42 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Selective attention test
In-Reply-To: <1DC57CB4-7CCD-43A6-98A6-C586BAF3D22F@bellsouth.net>
References: <619642.12227.qm@web81504.mail.mud.yahoo.com>	<FF02FBD4-2CE8-4AC4-BAFC-4E24BE27E44E@bellsouth.net>	<4C3B8B3D.1060307@satx.rr.com>
	<1DC57CB4-7CCD-43A6-98A6-C586BAF3D22F@bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <4C3BBEF2.7010704@satx.rr.com>

On 7/12/2010 7:37 PM, John Clark wrote:

> OK, but see if you can spot the gorilla this time.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGQmdoK_ZfY

This is a trick question. They were all gorillas, except the cute girl 
who walked on halfway through and rubbed her boobs in a highly 
suggestive manner.

Damien Broderick


From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu  Tue Jul 13 02:02:56 2010
From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan)
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 19:02:56 -0700
Subject: [ExI] New York Times piece on cryonics,
	featuring Robin Hanson	&  Peggy
In-Reply-To: <20100712192349.5wfgzv7q8go0s0cg@webmail.natasha.cc>
References: <mailman.1.1278936002.11479.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<77022.87917.qm@web114412.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<AANLkTiloGHt5M-R5XJb02ttI-Wtdhpq72YdYF9ISJLEA@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C3B6B3C.5020004@satx.rr.com>
	<20100712192349.5wfgzv7q8go0s0cg@webmail.natasha.cc>
Message-ID: <20100713020256.GA28070@ofb.net>

On Mon, Jul 12, 2010 at 07:23:49PM -0400, natasha at natasha.cc wrote:
> Quoting Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com>:
>
>> Cryonics does not force anyone to die, nor does forbidding cryonics
>> force anyone to die. Cryonics clients are, by definition, *dead*
>> already.
>
> Cryonics patients are "suspended, not, by definition, *dead*.  It is  
> true that a legal "death certificate" must be made and signed by an  
> attending physician, medical examiner or coroner, but according to  
> cryonics, the person is suspended.

They're dead until such time as revival can actually be demonstrated.
That a cryonics patient is suspended and not dead is a hope, not a fact.

Or, they're dead, and there's hope that death will become reversible.

"That is not dead..."

-xx- Damien X-) 


From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu  Tue Jul 13 02:12:32 2010
From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan)
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 19:12:32 -0700
Subject: [ExI] New York Times piece on cryonics,
	featuring Robin Hanson	&  Peggy
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinV2Jygx9iXcv04uhEXzC7KFzmS_4rr5AV9D-YC@mail.gmail.com>
References: <201007091640.o69Ge75T023636@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<AANLkTikwbp6tuYqn1EWvi2oThmufvkgLoi4qZg9RHZeD@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikmkHkHGvrfpnM-WNOWzKEVQD1Ux0wO07XKklS5@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikgQHOAXzYjASEHSiQmiGT_LOND2nVEB77zTb6v@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinV2Jygx9iXcv04uhEXzC7KFzmS_4rr5AV9D-YC@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20100713021232.GB28070@ofb.net>

On Mon, Jul 12, 2010 at 01:14:05PM -0400, Michael D wrote:

>    Yes that is true, but the problem is that in many, if not most,
>    implementations of socialized medicine, private health care is just
>    simply illegal. 

This is simply false.

It may be true in Communist countries -- but then, those are countries
where *everything* private is illegal, or at risk.  There's also rather
few such countries still around.

In actual countries with "socialized" medicine, as opposed to socialized
everything, it is simply not true.  Canada was closest, with a ban on
doctors charging privately for procedures covered by Canadian Medicare,
to avoid two-tier systems.  (Though the doctors typically operate
privately, charging the system, rather than acting as public employees.)
Even there, if it *wasn't* covered it could still be privately paid for.
Elsewhere, totally private medicine certainly exists.

>    care is strictly outlawed. Socilaized health care is more often than
>    not egalitarian, not utilitarian.

Again, false.

-xx- Damien X-) 


From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu  Tue Jul 13 02:25:06 2010
From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan)
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 19:25:06 -0700
Subject: [ExI] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <CA8739234B2D401E896AAF84E1930A0D@spike>
References: <CA8739234B2D401E896AAF84E1930A0D@spike>
Message-ID: <20100713022505.GC28070@ofb.net>

On Tue, Jul 06, 2010 at 11:27:41PM -0700, spike wrote:

> Ja, but we will get over it.  I didn't feel insulted by my pithy and
> lame nickname and I have been a Taxifornia resident for over half my
> life.  The taxes have been way too high here the whole time.  We pay
> and pay, yet it never seems to be enough for our voracious state
> government.  Perhaps it is because it uses the money to jail people
> for merely possessing a weed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_tax_levels_in_the_United_States

California tax levels (% personal income) are lower than 11 other
states, such as
Alaska
Vermont
Hawaii
Arkansas
West Virginia
Maine
Minnesota
Mississippi
New Mexico
Wyoming

Interestingly, New York is slightly above the mean and median, and
"Taxachusetts" is below both.
California is 0.7% above the national mean.

I have to call BS on this meme.  Of course "way too high" is subjective,
and I'd certainly say California spends too much on prisons.  But
California as an overtaxes liberal hellhole seems rather mythical.

-xx- Damien X-) 


From michaelfd1976 at gmail.com  Tue Jul 13 02:43:34 2010
From: michaelfd1976 at gmail.com (Michael D)
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 22:43:34 -0400
Subject: [ExI] New York Times piece on cryonics,
	featuring Robin Hanson & 	Peggy
In-Reply-To: <20100713021232.GB28070@ofb.net>
References: <201007091640.o69Ge75T023636@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<AANLkTikwbp6tuYqn1EWvi2oThmufvkgLoi4qZg9RHZeD@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikmkHkHGvrfpnM-WNOWzKEVQD1Ux0wO07XKklS5@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikgQHOAXzYjASEHSiQmiGT_LOND2nVEB77zTb6v@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinV2Jygx9iXcv04uhEXzC7KFzmS_4rr5AV9D-YC@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100713021232.GB28070@ofb.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikiUplZMt3c6UXGVo2d2ebMaf2iJOF2rkSUNCgZ@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jul 12, 2010 at 10:12 PM, Damien Sullivan
<phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu>wrote:

> On Mon, Jul 12, 2010 at 01:14:05PM -0400, Michael D wrote:
>
> >    Yes that is true, but the problem is that in many, if not most,
> >    implementations of socialized medicine, private health care is just
> >    simply illegal.
>
> This is simply false.
>
>
 I guess by changing the subject that's your way of saying 'yeah I did
completely drop the context of that discussion'

- Michael F Dickey
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100712/c36a8a81/attachment.html>

From spike66 at att.net  Tue Jul 13 03:09:40 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (Gregory Jones)
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 20:09:40 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <20100713022505.GC28070@ofb.net>
Message-ID: <953761.57593.qm@web81504.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



--- On Mon, 7/12/10, Damien Sullivan <phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu> wrote:
?
California tax levels (% personal income) are lower than 11 other
states, such as... I have to call BS on this meme.? Of course "way too high" is subjective...-xx- Damien X-) 
?
?
Hi Damien X, glad to see you posting again, haven't seen your commentary in a while.
?
California taxes lower than 11 other states?? Depends wildly on how one looks at it.? For instance, California has an income tax, which doesn't hit the illegals at all, since they cannot report any income.? Not sure how that is figured in, but?state income tax?definitely hits the 9-to-5ers bigtime.? California has a high sales tax, 8.7%, so the amount one pays depends on how much one buys.? Most importantly, California has a property tax that is limited in growth to 1% per year after the initial purchase.? So it is very high right after one buys a home, but after a long time, not so bad.
?
With these things in mind, it isn't a simple statement to say that California is number 12 on the list, because it depends on so many factors.
?
spike
?
?
?
?
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100712/d7b8c6e1/attachment.html>

From p0stfuturist at yahoo.com  Tue Jul 13 02:51:42 2010
From: p0stfuturist at yahoo.com (Post Futurist)
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 19:51:42 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] medical marijuana
Message-ID: <971548.87687.qm@web59915.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

What do you hear, say, concerning the percentage of certified marijuana patients who actually use marijuana for medical treatments rather than to get high?
I've been told it is 2 percent.



      
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100712/4c6cdc25/attachment.html>

From giulio at gmail.com  Tue Jul 13 05:54:56 2010
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 07:54:56 +0200
Subject: [ExI] New York Times piece on cryonics,
	featuring Robin Hanson & 	Peggy
In-Reply-To: <20100712192349.5wfgzv7q8go0s0cg@webmail.natasha.cc>
References: <mailman.1.1278936002.11479.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<77022.87917.qm@web114412.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<AANLkTiloGHt5M-R5XJb02ttI-Wtdhpq72YdYF9ISJLEA@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C3B6B3C.5020004@satx.rr.com>
	<20100712192349.5wfgzv7q8go0s0cg@webmail.natasha.cc>
Message-ID: <AANLkTineX1Ez_qe6ilHwneRC1iu0mWiavR5IuQ4QVQ16@mail.gmail.com>

The legal definition of death is based on a certificate of death
signed by a physician with the authority to sign one. According to
this legal definition, cryonic patients are dead.

On Tue, Jul 13, 2010 at 1:23 AM,  <natasha at natasha.cc> wrote:
> Quoting Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com>:
>
>> Cryonics does not force anyone to die, nor does forbidding cryonics
>> force anyone to die. Cryonics clients are, by definition, *dead*
>> already.
>
> Cryonics patients are "suspended, not, by definition, *dead*. ?It is true
> that a legal "death certificate" must be made and signed by an attending
> physician, medical examiner or coroner, but according to cryonics, the
> person is suspended.
>
> Best,
> Natasha
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>



From bbenzai at yahoo.com  Tue Jul 13 11:21:05 2010
From: bbenzai at yahoo.com (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 04:21:05 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Belief in maths (was mind body dualism)
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1131.1278963276.10820.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <832489.74928.qm@web114413.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

samantha <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:
Re: [ExI] Belief in maths (was mind body dualism)
> 
> I once led an intelligent, honest fundamentalist friend
> step by step, 
> starting from what she did believe to be true outside
> fundamentalist 
> conclusions, to see clearly that her beliefs were highly
> inconsistent 
> and contradictory and the bible was filled also with such 
> contradictions, inconsistencies also and with many horrid
> things.? She 
> saw perfectly clearly that much of what she believed to be
> true could 
> not be true.???Do you know what she said at
> the end?? It was what 
> persuaded me to not do that again.? "Thank you for
> your patience and 
> even, calm, fair discussion with me.? I learned a lot
> and see that you 
> are largely right in what you said at the beginning.?
> But this is what I 
> believe and I like believing it so I am going to keep doing
> so."

Rather than a reason to give up, I think that's a reason to change tactics.

Logic alone will not sway a lot of (most?) people.  Emotion is needed as well.  We need to offer good emotions, not just 'cold' logic.  Think how you feel when you contemplate the kind of future you hope for.  Is it dispassionate? Or is it a fantastic excitement? Or what?

We need to think how to communicate the excitement, the happiness, etc. as well as how to make logical arguments.

Ben Zaiboc



      




From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu  Tue Jul 13 13:51:32 2010
From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan)
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 06:51:32 -0700
Subject: [ExI] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <953761.57593.qm@web81504.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <20100713022505.GC28070@ofb.net>
	<953761.57593.qm@web81504.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20100713135132.GA28415@ofb.net>

On Mon, Jul 12, 2010 at 08:09:40PM -0700, Gregory Jones wrote:

>    California taxes lower than 11 other states?  Depends wildly on how
>    one looks at it.  For instance, California has an income tax, which

Well, my url was looking at from the POV of the money actually taken as
taxes, as a percentage of income.  Which would seem the most relevant
factor.

>    doesn't hit the illegals at all, since they cannot report any income.

That's not true.  To get employed, many of them have fake information,
and employers will withhold money in their name for both the IRS and the
California.  These illegal immigrants in fact support the system, since
they pay in but have no ability to claim Social Security money later.

>    the 9-to-5ers bigtime.  California has a high sales tax, 8.7%, so the

Fairly high, but not vastly so.  Lower than Tennessee, only 1% higher
than Texas.  And IIRC with exemptions for groceries if not other items,
though that's common.
http://www.thestc.com/STrates.stm
Hmm, I see California is temporarily 1% higher, due to the budget
crisis.

>    California has a property tax that is limited in growth to 1% per year
>    after the initial purchase.  So it is very high right after one buys a
>    home, but after a long time, not so bad.

California also has lower property tax rates than most states,
especially most non Deep South states.
http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Taxes/Advice/PropertyTaxesWhereDoesYourStateRank.aspx
puts it at at 0.61%, vs. 0.63% in Nevada, 1.76% in Texas, or 1.7% in New
Hampshire.  Effectively 3.5% of income, compared to 5.8% in NH, or 4.8%
in Illinois, or 3.5% in Texas.

>    With these things in mind, it isn't a simple statement to say that
>    California is number 12 on the list, because it depends on so many
>    factors.

Those various factors apparently add up such that California is #12 on
the list.  Sales tax rate is moderately higher than most (and much
higher than some, but one might say those are the ones below average),
has fairly high but progressive income tax, and significantly lower
property tax rates.

-xx- Damien X-) 


From natasha at natasha.cc  Tue Jul 13 13:51:26 2010
From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More)
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 08:51:26 -0500
Subject: [ExI] New York Times piece on cryonics,
	featuring Robin Hanson	&  Peggy
In-Reply-To: <20100713020256.GA28070@ofb.net>
References: <mailman.1.1278936002.11479.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org><77022.87917.qm@web114412.mail.gq1.yahoo.com><AANLkTiloGHt5M-R5XJb02ttI-Wtdhpq72YdYF9ISJLEA@mail.gmail.com><4C3B6B3C.5020004@satx.rr.com><20100712192349.5wfgzv7q8go0s0cg@webmail.natasha.cc>
	<20100713020256.GA28070@ofb.net>
Message-ID: <0873FD76F0EA43969ABEBDDD0CAA0559@DFC68LF1>

Yes, you are correct that "suspensnded" is a hope for death reversal.  

Thanks. 


Natasha Vita-More

-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Damien Sullivan
Sent: Monday, July 12, 2010 9:03 PM
To: ExI chat list
Subject: Re: [ExI] New York Times piece on cryonics,featuring Robin Hanson &
Peggy

On Mon, Jul 12, 2010 at 07:23:49PM -0400, natasha at natasha.cc wrote:
> Quoting Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com>:
>
>> Cryonics does not force anyone to die, nor does forbidding cryonics 
>> force anyone to die. Cryonics clients are, by definition, *dead* 
>> already.
>
> Cryonics patients are "suspended, not, by definition, *dead*.  It is 
> true that a legal "death certificate" must be made and signed by an 
> attending physician, medical examiner or coroner, but according to 
> cryonics, the person is suspended.

They're dead until such time as revival can actually be demonstrated.
That a cryonics patient is suspended and not dead is a hope, not a fact.

Or, they're dead, and there's hope that death will become reversible.

"That is not dead..."

-xx- Damien X-)
_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat



From natasha at natasha.cc  Tue Jul 13 14:06:29 2010
From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More)
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 09:06:29 -0500
Subject: [ExI] New York Times piece on cryonics,
	featuring Robin Hanson & 	Peggy
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTineX1Ez_qe6ilHwneRC1iu0mWiavR5IuQ4QVQ16@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1278936002.11479.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org><77022.87917.qm@web114412.mail.gq1.yahoo.com><AANLkTiloGHt5M-R5XJb02ttI-Wtdhpq72YdYF9ISJLEA@mail.gmail.com><4C3B6B3C.5020004@satx.rr.com><20100712192349.5wfgzv7q8go0s0cg@webmail.natasha.cc>
	<AANLkTineX1Ez_qe6ilHwneRC1iu0mWiavR5IuQ4QVQ16@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <748DF8953757438D8B67C87CD7933BF3@DFC68LF1>


Okay.  I think Damien Sullivan was correct, as you and Damien Broderick in
regards to a historical, traditional definition of death and dead.  And
surely a reanimated person whose brain and/or brain and full body is put in
liquid nitrogen is met both the historical, traditional and the modern
meaning of "dead" as officially and legally stated by the assisting
physician, medical technician an/or coroner.  

Nevertheless, for cryonics, the person is in a suspended state, regarless of
the hope that he or she will be reanimated.

But let me remind you all that the concept of what is or is not dead has
changed over the eons.

"Definitions of death are based on observation and prognosis in meeting
certain criteria as proposed a knowledgeable authority of death.  But how
dead does someone have to be to be dead?  A limp, cold and immobile body was
once concerned dead.  But a person could be unconscious and reawaken.  A
seemingly quiet chest exhibiting stillness rather than a beating heart
evidenced death, but then a heart could beat quietly.  A candle?s still
flame could determine a loss of breathing, but like a limp body and quiet
heart, then the nostrils? weakened breath might go unnoticed.  Testing the
pulse in dominant anterior veins of the wrist, the neck or the groin
evidenced a loss of blood flow, but a person?s blood could reflow again with
a strong push on the chest, a force of oxygen into the mouth, or a slap to
the face.  The observation that someone whose heart, lungs and pulse has
stopped functioning for a period of time is not full and accurate diagnosis
that a person has ceased to exist for all time.  

"The fear of being misdiagnosed as dead can be more frightening than death
itself. Medical technologies do now provide microscopic determinants of
death; however misdiagnosis of death is possible.  I do not intend this to
be a diversion from the focus of the research, but more an insight into a
growing concern about how and when a person is actually dead." (Vita-More
2008)

It will be interesting to see what the next definition of dead will be, and
if a person has to be legally dead before suspension.  And it will be
interesting to see how dead will be redefined if and when cognition is
distributed and/or a person has more than one persona existing in different
platforms and/or time frames.


Natasha Vita-More

-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Giulio Prisco
Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2010 12:55 AM
To: ExI chat list
Subject: Re: [ExI] New York Times piece on cryonics,featuring Robin Hanson &
Peggy

The legal definition of death is based on a certificate of death signed by a
physician with the authority to sign one. According to this legal
definition, cryonic patients are dead.

On Tue, Jul 13, 2010 at 1:23 AM,  <natasha at natasha.cc> wrote:
> Quoting Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com>:
>
>> Cryonics does not force anyone to die, nor does forbidding cryonics 
>> force anyone to die. Cryonics clients are, by definition, *dead* 
>> already.
>
> Cryonics patients are "suspended, not, by definition, *dead*. ?It is 
> true that a legal "death certificate" must be made and signed by an 
> attending physician, medical examiner or coroner, but according to 
> cryonics, the person is suspended.
>
> Best,
> Natasha
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>

_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat




From spike66 at att.net  Tue Jul 13 15:34:36 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 08:34:36 -0700
Subject: [ExI] taxes again
Message-ID: <E597F73040444AEDADD5886EC9453112@spike>

 


--- On Tue, 7/13/10, Damien Sullivan <phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu> wrote:

	From: Damien Sullivan <phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu>

...	
	>...Well, my url was looking at from the POV of the money actually
taken as
	taxes, as a percentage of income.  Which would seem the most
relevant
	factor...

Ja, but to reduce that to a single number, it must be somehow averaged
across the population.  Oddly enough, it isn't clear how to do that, so the
ranking list is ambiguous depending on how the averaging calculation is
done.  Think about it: are we saying those who make $50k a year in
California are 12th on the list of those who make $50k in other states?  Or
those who make $100k?  Or average of all, and if so, do you count the
illegals and others who do not submit tax returns?  Some of those list
makers do and some do not.  It isn't clear to me how you count those.

	
	>>...    doesn't hit the illegals at all, since they cannot report
any income.
	
	>...That's not true.  To get employed, many of them have fake
information,
	and employers will withhold money in their name for both the IRS and
the
	California.  These illegal immigrants in fact support the system,
since
	they pay in but have no ability to claim Social Security money
later...

Ambiguous.  Some use fake social security numbers, others work only for
cash.  Depends on the employer.  To say they support the system is
ambiguous: the fake ID users support the social security system, but that is
a relatively small part of taxation.

	
	>>...California has a high sales tax, 8.7%, so the
	
	>...Fairly high, but not vastly so.  Lower than Tennessee, only 1%
higher
	than Texas...

	>...California also has lower property tax rates than most states...

	>...fairly high but progressive income tax, and significantly lower
	property tax rates...	-xx- Damien X-) 

Where this argument goes is to point out that California's income tax isn't
so high compared to other states, and the sales tax isn't so high compared
to other states and the real estate tax isn't so high compared to other
states.  The problem is that California has all three.  Many states only
have two of those.  So we are back to looking at the total revenue and
dividing by the number of citizens, but it isn't clear how to count the
number of citizens, nor is it clear how to average it.  California might be
low for some wage categories, but high for others.

Oddly enough, it looks to me like California is a great place to retire from
a taxation standpoint, IF you can get a house you can live in the rest of
your life, buy it 30 years before retirement and sit right there.  Then when
you retire, your income is low, your major purchases are mostly behind you
(plus you have the internet to buy your electronics tax-free) and your house
is prop 13-ed (after 30 years the annual property taxes are about 1.35% of
what you paid for the house 30 yrs ago).  It isn't usually presented as a
good place to retire, but do the math: if you get in here, buy a nice enough
house in your mid 30s and stay put right there, it is a good deal.
Otherwise not.

spike






From thirdeyeoferis at gmail.com  Tue Jul 13 06:36:00 2010
From: thirdeyeoferis at gmail.com (Thirdeye Of Eris)
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 02:36:00 -0400
Subject: [ExI] medical marijuana
In-Reply-To: <971548.87687.qm@web59915.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <971548.87687.qm@web59915.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTilKUl8rebdhWaeFt3jSU5Ci0Sw-9EDfSLLjPi6L@mail.gmail.com>

"getting high" is what causes the relief of symptoms in most cases...

2010/7/12 Post Futurist <p0stfuturist at yahoo.com>

> What do you hear, say, concerning the percentage of certified marijuana
> patients who actually use marijuana for medical treatments rather than to
> get high?
> I've been told it is 2 percent.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>


-- 
"A rational anarchist believes that concepts such as ?state? and?society?
and ?government? have no existence save as physically exemplified in the
acts of self-responsible individuals. He believes that it is impossible to
shift blame, share blame, distribute blame... as blame, guilt,
responsibility are matters taking place inside human beings singly and
nowhere else. But being rational, he knows that not all individuals hold his
evaluations, so he tries to live perfectly in an imperfect world... aware
that his effort will be less than perfect yet undismayed by self-knowledge
of self-failure."

                -- Professor De La Paz from The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress by
Robert Heinlein
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100713/cd11e8c9/attachment.html>

From wincat at swbell.net  Tue Jul 13 16:26:15 2010
From: wincat at swbell.net (Norman Jacobs)
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 11:26:15 -0500
Subject: [ExI] medical marijuana
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTilKUl8rebdhWaeFt3jSU5Ci0Sw-9EDfSLLjPi6L@mail.gmail.com>
References: <971548.87687.qm@web59915.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<AANLkTilKUl8rebdhWaeFt3jSU5Ci0Sw-9EDfSLLjPi6L@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <008f01cb22a8$1e03b280$5a0b1780$@net>

And that is the business of the patient, not the government or persons with
an opposing agenda.  Such persons should mind their own business.   .  

 

 

From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Thirdeye Of
Eris
Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2010 1:36 AM
To: ExI chat list
Subject: Re: [ExI] medical marijuana

 

"getting high" is what causes the relief of symptoms in most cases... 

2010/7/12 Post Futurist <p0stfuturist at yahoo.com>


What do you hear, say, concerning the percentage of certified marijuana
patients who actually use marijuana for medical treatments rather than to
get high?
I've been told it is 2 percent.



_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat




-- 
"A rational anarchist believes that concepts such as 'state' and'society'
and 'government' have no existence save as physically exemplified in the
acts of self-responsible individuals. He believes that it is impossible to
shift blame, share blame, distribute blame... as blame, guilt,
responsibility are matters taking place inside human beings singly and
nowhere else. But being rational, he knows that not all individuals hold his
evaluations, so he tries to live perfectly in an imperfect world... aware
that his effort will be less than perfect yet undismayed by self-knowledge
of self-failure."           
              
                -- Professor De La Paz from The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress by
Robert Heinlein

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100713/c009b282/attachment.html>

From bbenzai at yahoo.com  Tue Jul 13 19:05:52 2010
From: bbenzai at yahoo.com (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 12:05:52 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Selective attention test
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1279022403.12407.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <101160.95434.qm@web114403.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

John Clark <jonkc at bellsouth.net> wrote:
> 
> Try to observe and count the correct number of times the
> people in white pass the basketball.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJG698U2Mvo
> 

I'm afraid I don't see the point of this.

I guess I passed the selective attention test, getting the number of ball passes right and missing the gorilla.

Is the idea to demonstrate how well selective attention works?  Surely it's not surprising? It's a very useful trait.  Probably essential.

The odd thing about this test is that some people who pass it feel that somehow they've failed, because they didn't see the gorilla. But they didn't, they passed.

Maybe certain post-humans could go "... 5, 6, gorilla, 7, ..." and get it right, but I doubt many humans (not having seen the test before) could notice the gorilla without losing count.

Ben Zaiboc


      




From jonkc at bellsouth.net  Tue Jul 13 19:33:16 2010
From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John Clark)
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 15:33:16 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Selective attention test
In-Reply-To: <101160.95434.qm@web114403.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <101160.95434.qm@web114403.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <8F345938-9F43-4F8B-8891-C6F0C5C43D08@bellsouth.net>

On Jul 13, 2010, at 3:05 PM, Ben Zaiboc wrote:

>> Try to observe and count the correct number of times the
>> people in white pass the basketball.
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJG698U2Mvo
>> 
> I'm afraid I don't see the point of this.
> I guess I passed the selective attention test, getting the number of ball passes right and missing the gorilla.

I think it shows the unreliability of eyewitness testimony. Before security cameras became common bank robbers had been know to put a bandaid on their nose, later people could describe the bandaid in great detail but not what the robber looked like. 

  John K Clark

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100713/c90bb557/attachment.html>

From dan_ust at yahoo.com  Tue Jul 13 19:10:24 2010
From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan)
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 12:10:24 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] taxes again
In-Reply-To: <E597F73040444AEDADD5886EC9453112@spike>
References: <E597F73040444AEDADD5886EC9453112@spike>
Message-ID: <818302.47830.qm@web30106.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I think there are incentives to make things less comparable when it comes to 
these things. (And I don't mean this apply to other areas of life. I think 
there's a general incentive in a competitive situation to make it hard to 
compare, especially by competitors who think they won't measure up. I see this 
sometimes in the private sector too. The only difference is there you can 
generally walk away -- i.e., there's a generally cheap exit option. This 
creates, I believe, a rival incentive to make comparisons easier. The rule here 
might be: if it's unclear what's going on, this likely means someone is hiding 
something.)

Regards,

Dan


----- Original Message ----
From: spike <spike66 at att.net>
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Tue, July 13, 2010 11:34:36 AM
Subject: [ExI] taxes again

--- On Tue, 7/13/10, Damien Sullivan <phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu> wrote:

??? From: Damien Sullivan <phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu>

...??? 
??? >...Well, my url was looking at from the POV of the money actually
taken as
??? taxes, as a percentage of income.? Which would seem the most
relevant
??? factor...

Ja, but to reduce that to a single number, it must be somehow averaged
across the population.? Oddly enough, it isn't clear how to do that, so the
ranking list is ambiguous depending on how the averaging calculation is
done.? Think about it: are we saying those who make $50k a year in
California are 12th on the list of those who make $50k in other states?? Or
those who make $100k?? Or average of all, and if so, do you count the
illegals and others who do not submit tax returns?? Some of those list
makers do and some do not.? It isn't clear to me how you count those.

??? 
??? >>...? ? doesn't hit the illegals at all, since they cannot report
any income.
??? 
??? >...That's not true.? To get employed, many of them have fake
information,
??? and employers will withhold money in their name for both the IRS and
the
??? California.? These illegal immigrants in fact support the system,
since
??? they pay in but have no ability to claim Social Security money
later...

Ambiguous.? Some use fake social security numbers, others work only for
cash.? Depends on the employer.? To say they support the system is
ambiguous: the fake ID users support the social security system, but that is
a relatively small part of taxation.

??? 
??? >>...California has a high sales tax, 8.7%, so the
??? 
??? >...Fairly high, but not vastly so.? Lower than Tennessee, only 1%
higher
??? than Texas...

??? >...California also has lower property tax rates than most states...

??? >...fairly high but progressive income tax, and significantly lower
??? property tax rates...??? -xx- Damien X-) 

Where this argument goes is to point out that California's income tax isn't
so high compared to other states, and the sales tax isn't so high compared
to other states and the real estate tax isn't so high compared to other
states.? The problem is that California has all three.? Many states only
have two of those.? So we are back to looking at the total revenue and
dividing by the number of citizens, but it isn't clear how to count the
number of citizens, nor is it clear how to average it.? California might be
low for some wage categories, but high for others.

Oddly enough, it looks to me like California is a great place to retire from
a taxation standpoint, IF you can get a house you can live in the rest of
your life, buy it 30 years before retirement and sit right there.? Then when
you retire, your income is low, your major purchases are mostly behind you
(plus you have the internet to buy your electronics tax-free) and your house
is prop 13-ed (after 30 years the annual property taxes are about 1.35% of
what you paid for the house 30 yrs ago).? It isn't usually presented as a
good place to retire, but do the math: if you get in here, buy a nice enough
house in your mid 30s and stay put right there, it is a good deal.
Otherwise not.

spike


      



From dan_ust at yahoo.com  Tue Jul 13 19:13:46 2010
From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan)
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 12:13:46 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] medical marijuana
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTilKUl8rebdhWaeFt3jSU5Ci0Sw-9EDfSLLjPi6L@mail.gmail.com>
References: <971548.87687.qm@web59915.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<AANLkTilKUl8rebdhWaeFt3jSU5Ci0Sw-9EDfSLLjPi6L@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <461912.82759.qm@web30105.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

This is what I was thinking too. You're not feeling well and have terminal 
cancer -- and don't want to be doped up on morphine derivatives. So you smoke 
pot. Big deal if this might have long-term health consequences. It's your life; 
you're in pain; and you're likely not going to live long enough to get, say, 
lung cancer.

Why should anyone else have a say in this anyhow? Again, the solution is quite 
simple: eliminate states and turn over the statists to me for medical 
experimenta -- er, re-education.

Regards,

Dan


From: Thirdeye Of Eris <thirdeyeoferis at gmail.com>
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Tue, July 13, 2010 2:36:00 AM
Subject: Re: [ExI] medical marijuana

"getting high" is what causes the relief of symptoms in most cases... 


2010/7/12 Post Futurist <p0stfuturist at yahoo.com>

What do you hear, say, concerning the percentage of certified marijuana patients 
who actually use marijuana for medical treatments rather than to get high?
>I've been told it is 2 percent.
> 
>
>____________________________________________
>
>


-- 
"A rational anarchist believes that concepts such as ?state? and?society? and 
?government? have no existence save as physically exemplified in the acts of 
self-responsible individuals. He believes that it is impossible to shift blame, 
share blame, distribute blame... as blame, guilt, responsibility are matters 
taking place inside human beings singly and nowhere else. But being rational, he 
knows that not all individuals hold his evaluations, so he tries to live 
perfectly in an imperfect world... aware that his effort will be less than 
perfect yet undismayed by self-knowledge of self-failure."? ? ? ? ?? 

? ? ? ? ? ? ? 
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? -- Professor De La Paz from The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress by 
Robert Heinlein



      
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100713/32856b87/attachment.html>

From wingcat at pacbell.net  Tue Jul 13 19:31:25 2010
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 12:31:25 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Selective attention test
In-Reply-To: <101160.95434.qm@web114403.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <84136.55124.qm@web81607.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

--- On Tue, 7/13/10, Ben Zaiboc <bbenzai at yahoo.com> wrote:
> John Clark <jonkc at bellsouth.net>
> wrote:
> > 
> > Try to observe and count the correct number of times
> the
> > people in white pass the basketball.
> > 
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJG698U2Mvo
> > 
> 
> I'm afraid I don't see the point of this.
> 
> I guess I passed the selective attention test, getting the
> number of ball passes right and missing the gorilla.
> 
> Is the idea to demonstrate how well selective attention
> works?? Surely it's not surprising? It's a very useful
> trait.? Probably essential.

Actually, a "full pass" would be getting the number of
ball passes and seeing the gorilla - and any other relevant
details that you didn't know about in advance.  (I noticed
the gorilla - registered as "person in furry suit" - while
I was counting, and I'd never heard of this test before.
I also noticed one pass that was not on screen.)



From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Tue Jul 13 21:45:06 2010
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 14:45:06 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: psi yet again
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikHfe7uxpyWLMo4Jj345MNd0DVPhTT3fYYP9WT8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1277553603.2126.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<AANLkTimKQJf4UVjigRHQY9spD3YNb55zQQnOJyhE771d@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C266A99.8030706@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTikwBc-FR-Na0SXy0UBgy2qQpsuzibU3uSRr6v7K@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C2678F9.4050801@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTingR7QSuKJQknpam8qVD1-z9JnrrgcYSlDvPhCb@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C26954D.5020704@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTikf4pcV-eOOSlGgQG474Thy4QP07dj2Fp4X5LwX@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C269D20.8090005@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTimp2vzwgovSgcnEedm-Rev9kW6WaDZ7DMw22qPa@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C26AB88.2000009@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTinoxW4asA-zOnA8TJS806mAl0lfc8ArbR7NTRmu@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C26BED5.6070409@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTinrp7FxNz3MOTgK4iGmEOvsAyzQb1MDMP0gJcK5@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C28F4B0.2060208@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTikC-t6dqL-2y30mZRZxglOtFcv7DariVpUBdh9p@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C294EAB.7060902@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTinAMY-pIu_FE-btWLrSeTKmqbWwYzbeE5seaEcz@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikHfe7uxpyWLMo4Jj345MNd0DVPhTT3fYYP9WT8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <374632.6987.qm@web65603.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

Rafal wrote:

> BTW, I don't buy into the Lotto argument against psi: if psi is a
> faculty dependent on complex features of the brain to work (like
> intelligence), then its absence in most people is not suprising even
> if does give replicative advantage. If you need a 100 genes for it to
> work but the increase in fitness is small, then the overall selection
> for it will be weak. A capability manifesting in 2 out 100,000 guesses
> just won't manifest in the noisy world of casinos and lotteries - why,
> it's hard to detect even under ideal conditions in the lab.

Joan Ginther?is an interesting case study for potential psi effects or 
*something*. She has a PhD. in math and?won the Texas Lotto 4 times but won't 
say how:

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/7106614.html

Excerpt:
"The odds that Joan Ginther would hit four Texas Lottery jackpots for a combined 
nearly $21 million are astronomical. Mathematicians say the chances are as slim 
as 1 in 18 septillion - that's 18 and 24 zeros."


Stuart LaForge 

"For small creatures such as we the vastness is bearable only through 
love."-Carl Sagan 



      




From thespike at satx.rr.com  Tue Jul 13 22:19:24 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 17:19:24 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: psi yet again
In-Reply-To: <374632.6987.qm@web65603.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.1.1277553603.2126.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>	<AANLkTimKQJf4UVjigRHQY9spD3YNb55zQQnOJyhE771d@mail.gmail.com>	<4C266A99.8030706@satx.rr.com>	<AANLkTikwBc-FR-Na0SXy0UBgy2qQpsuzibU3uSRr6v7K@mail.gmail.com>	<4C2678F9.4050801@satx.rr.com>	<AANLkTingR7QSuKJQknpam8qVD1-z9JnrrgcYSlDvPhCb@mail.gmail.com>	<4C26954D.5020704@satx.rr.com>	<AANLkTikf4pcV-eOOSlGgQG474Thy4QP07dj2Fp4X5LwX@mail.gmail.com>	<4C269D20.8090005@satx.rr.com>	<AANLkTimp2vzwgovSgcnEedm-Rev9kW6WaDZ7DMw22qPa@mail.gmail.com>	<4C26AB88.2000009@satx.rr.com>	<AANLkTinoxW4asA-zOnA8TJS806mAl0lfc8ArbR7NTRmu@mail.gmail.com>	<4C26BED5.6070409@satx.rr.com>	<AANLkTinrp7FxNz3MOTgK4iGmEOvsAyzQb1MDMP0gJcK5@mail.gmail.com>	<4C28F4B0.2060208@satx.rr.com>	<AANLkTikC-t6dqL-2y30mZRZxglOtFcv7DariVpUBdh9p@mail.gmail.com>	<4C294EAB.7060902@satx.rr.com>	<AANLkTinAMY-pIu_FE-btWLrSeTKmqbWwYzbeE5seaEcz@mail.gmail.com>	<AANLkTikHfe7uxpyWLMo4Jj345MNd0DVPhTT3fYYP9WT8@mail.gmail.com>
	<374632.6987.qm@web65603.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4C3CE66C.5050807@satx.rr.com>

On 7/13/2010 4:45 PM, The Avantguardian wrote:

> Joan Ginther is an interesting case study for potential psi effects or
> *something*. She has a PhD. in math and won the Texas Lotto 4 times

*Something*. Three of them were scratchies (not lotto), two from the 
same store, hard to explain by psi. Maybe she's manipulating the deep 
grammar code of this simulation... If the winner's name had been Greg 
Egan I'd be sure of it.

Damien Broderick


From Frankmac at ripco.com  Tue Jul 13 23:45:43 2010
From: Frankmac at ripco.com (Frank McElligott)
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 19:45:43 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Lottery winner
Message-ID: <000c01cb22e5$86ea7a80$ad753644@sx28047db9d36c>

Once wrote  here concerning winning lotteries that if you kept winning they would stop you from playing, only to find a woman  in Texas who as won 4 lotteries and the state  of Texas said she is on the up and up(depression lingo)

Seems she is  a college Math professor, makes  you wonder that either she has figured it out, or she has a very high PSI,:)  Hope is is the former for Clark's sake:)

Hey  what do you think Spike


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100713/ap_on_re_us/us_luckiest_lottery_winner 

Frank
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100713/a238b5d3/attachment.html>

From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Wed Jul 14 00:22:55 2010
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 17:22:55 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: psi yet again
In-Reply-To: <4C3CE66C.5050807@satx.rr.com>
References: <mailman.1.1277553603.2126.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<AANLkTimKQJf4UVjigRHQY9spD3YNb55zQQnOJyhE771d@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C266A99.8030706@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTikwBc-FR-Na0SXy0UBgy2qQpsuzibU3uSRr6v7K@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C2678F9.4050801@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTingR7QSuKJQknpam8qVD1-z9JnrrgcYSlDvPhCb@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C26954D.5020704@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTikf4pcV-eOOSlGgQG474Thy4QP07dj2Fp4X5LwX@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C269D20.8090005@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTimp2vzwgovSgcnEedm-Rev9kW6WaDZ7DMw22qPa@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C26AB88.2000009@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTinoxW4asA-zOnA8TJS806mAl0lfc8ArbR7NTRmu@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C26BED5.6070409@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTinrp7FxNz3MOTgK4iGmEOvsAyzQb1MDMP0gJcK5@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C28F4B0.2060208@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTikC-t6dqL-2y30mZRZxglOtFcv7DariVpUBdh9p@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C294EAB.7060902@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTinAMY-pIu_FE-btWLrSeTKmqbWwYzbeE5seaEcz@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikHfe7uxpyWLMo4Jj345MNd0DVPhTT3fYYP9WT8@mail.gmail.com>
	<374632.6987.qm@web65603.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<4C3CE66C.5050807@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <552520.67280.qm@web65602.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>



----- Original Message ----
> From: Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com>
> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Sent: Tue, July 13, 2010 3:19:24 PM
> Subject: Re: [ExI] Fwd: psi yet again
> 
> On 7/13/2010 4:45 PM, The Avantguardian wrote:
> 
> > Joan Ginther is an interesting case study for potential psi effects or
> > *something*. She has a PhD. in math and won the Texas Lotto 4 times
> 
> *Something*. Three of them were scratchies (not lotto), two from the same 
>store, hard to explain by psi. Maybe she's manipulating the deep grammar code of 
>this simulation... If the winner's name had been Greg Egan I'd be sure of it.

If psi was a real evolutionary adaptation, it could manifest itself in the 
ability to consistently be in the right place at the right time because of the 
obvious survival benefit. If the winning scratchie was in store X, a psychic 
would be intuitively drawn to purchase their tickets there. I am not saying she 
is psychic but the alternative is that she cheated and I am not sure how one 
would go about doing that. And if this is a simulation, then manipulating the 
code would be a good explanation for psi. Reading the code for passive psi 
effects (remote viewing etc.) and rewriting?the code?for active effects 
(psychokinesis etc.). In any case, I am all ears if anybody has a theory on how 
she cheated if that is the?hypothesis.


      




From sjatkins at mac.com  Wed Jul 14 00:35:52 2010
From: sjatkins at mac.com (samantha)
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 17:35:52 -0700
Subject: [ExI] medical marijuana
In-Reply-To: <619642.12227.qm@web81504.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <619642.12227.qm@web81504.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4C3D0668.1060209@mac.com>

Gregory Jones wrote:
>
>
> --- On *Mon, 7/12/10, Stefano Vaj /<stefano.vaj at gmail.com>/* wrote:
>  
> >...As much as I may dislike prohibitionism and the DEA, any kind of smoke
> produced by combustion is hardly the healthiest way to administer any
> substance.
>  
>
> Ja agreed, but smoking a plant may be the cheapest way to administer 
> any drug.  The alternative means of administering drugs are 
> tightly controlled by governments and the medical establishment, 
> putting the refined medications out of the reach of many, if not most, 
> people.
>

Vaporizers are not that expensive and much better for you.  Or in the 
case of pot, cooking with it works fine.
>  
> The USian recent health reform bill did not fix that problem, but 
> rather may have made it worse.  The health insurance companies must 
> raise their prices to compensate for the new requirement that they 
> cover previously-uninsurable patients.
>
Grrrr.  That just ended the entire art of "insurance" and will 
eventually end private insurance leaving only government players.  Which 
was likely the idea.

>   It requires Americans to buy health insurance, which most will not 
> do (the fine for not buying is cheaper than the insurance), which 
> means they will avoid doctors and hospitals to avoid the fine.
>

How did the land of freedom fall so far that we allow government to tell 
us what to do and to tell insurers who to insure and at what rates? 
>  
> So instead of getting the safer refined drugs, many will get none.  
> The option of supplying drugs in a cheap smoked form may be better 
> than the alternative, which is nothing.
>
I am also very concerned what will likely happen to medical R&D and 
advanced treatments in this country.  I think a lot will not be funded 
anymore or will not be listed on the government approved care list.    I 
also have heard more than a few physician friends say they will not 
practice medicine this way.  Either they opt out of all government 
programs (many already have) around medicine and self-fund somehow to 
keep doing it the way they believe it should be done or they leave the 
profession.  This is not at all good news for we boomers. 

- samantha

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100713/96d97e7e/attachment.html>

From sjatkins at mac.com  Wed Jul 14 00:46:44 2010
From: sjatkins at mac.com (samantha)
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 17:46:44 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Belief in maths (was mind body dualism)
In-Reply-To: <50355.11803.qm@web81501.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <50355.11803.qm@web81501.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4C3D08F4.1000506@mac.com>

Gregory Jones wrote:
>
> --- On *Mon, 7/12/10, samantha /<sjatkins at mac.com>/* wrote:
>  
> >...She saw perfectly clearly that much of what she believed to be 
> true could not be true.   Do you know what she said at the end?  It 
> was what persuaded me to not do that again.  "Thank you for your 
> patience and even, calm, fair discussion with me.  I learned a lot and 
> see that you are largely right in what you said at the beginning.  But 
> this is what I believe and I like believing it so I am going to keep 
> doing so."  - samantha
>  
> "The man convinced against his will
> Is of the same opinion still."
>  
>
Yes, though it wasn't against her will.  She was interested in the 
discussion and whether her beliefs held up to the examination.
> Interesting commentary, one to which I can sure relate.  The 
> difference between your friend and me is that I had no choice.  I 
> liked what I once believed, wanted desperately to keep believing, 
> family pressure to keep believing, but found that being convinced 
> against my will changed my opinion against my will.  I had no choice: 
> I could not believe what I did not believe.  I wanted to, but couldn't.
>
Yep.  I once upon a time was pretty mystical.  I thought I wanted to be 
a contemplative nun (though decidedly not of the Christian sorts).   I 
was very happy and even blissful.   Yet I noticed too much was just 
being roundly ignored and that too many things I believed had no real 
basis.    It began to feel like another way of staying high but not 
really engaging in something real.  Bit by bit it unraveled.  It was 
hard - really hard.  So I think I can relate.
>  
> Question please Samantha: how do some minds tolerate cognitive 
> dissonance, and others like mine, tolerate none at all?  Why do some 
> minds work like hers and other minds work like mine?
>
I am not sure.  Some of us just have this deep desire or determination 
to integrate everything we possibly can.  We cannot tolerate keeping 
somethings outside the attempted integration.  It doesn't seem to be a 
matter of intelligence although more of the people with this 
characteristic are more intelligent.   I am not sure if it is even a 
matter of conscious decision to seek this full integration.    But I do 
think the same thing that made me at one time a gung ho mystic is what 
led me away from it - this deep desire to understand, to know, to make 
sense of it all.

- samantha

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100713/c959ed32/attachment.html>

From sjatkins at mac.com  Wed Jul 14 00:54:01 2010
From: sjatkins at mac.com (samantha)
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 17:54:01 -0700
Subject: [ExI] New York Times piece on cryonics,
	featuring Robin Hanson &  Peggy
In-Reply-To: <20100713021232.GB28070@ofb.net>
References: <201007091640.o69Ge75T023636@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<AANLkTikwbp6tuYqn1EWvi2oThmufvkgLoi4qZg9RHZeD@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikmkHkHGvrfpnM-WNOWzKEVQD1Ux0wO07XKklS5@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikgQHOAXzYjASEHSiQmiGT_LOND2nVEB77zTb6v@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinV2Jygx9iXcv04uhEXzC7KFzmS_4rr5AV9D-YC@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100713021232.GB28070@ofb.net>
Message-ID: <4C3D0AA9.3000707@mac.com>

Damien Sullivan wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 12, 2010 at 01:14:05PM -0400, Michael D wrote:
>
>   
>>    Yes that is true, but the problem is that in many, if not most,
>>    implementations of socialized medicine, private health care is just
>>    simply illegal. 
>>     
>
> This is simply false.
>   
I know people that escape from Canada to here for some types of care 
that they cannot legally find in Canada. 
> It may be true in Communist countries -- but then, those are countries
> where *everything* private is illegal, or at risk.  There's also rather
> few such countries still around.
>   
No.  It is not just communist countries.  Socialism is a sliding scale 
that has consequences over time.  Socialize some function like health 
care and certain results can be expected in the long run with a set of 
possible variations.
> In actual countries with "socialized" medicine, as opposed to socialized
> everything, it is simply not true.  Canada was closest, with a ban on
> doctors charging privately for procedures covered by Canadian Medicare,
> to avoid two-tier systems. 
See above.  Also restrictions on what they can and cannot do.  Overall 
some types of medicine that are not officially sanctioned simply become 
uncompetitive and disappear in the country.  Also some physicians and 
researchers simply vote with their feed and leave for places they are 
more free to practice as they wish and more likely to make a viable 
living doing so.

>  (Though the doctors typically operate
> privately, charging the system, rather than acting as public employees.)
> Even there, if it *wasn't* covered it could still be privately paid for.
> Elsewhere, totally private medicine certainly exists.
>   


>   
>>    care is strictly outlawed. Socilaized health care is more often than
>>    not egalitarian, not utilitarian.
>>     
>
>   

> Again, false.
>
>   
It has been stated as being justified on egalitarian grounds repeatedly.


- samantha

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100713/61e27add/attachment.html>

From thirdeyeoferis at gmail.com  Tue Jul 13 19:08:32 2010
From: thirdeyeoferis at gmail.com (Thirdeye Of Eris)
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 15:08:32 -0400
Subject: [ExI] medical marijuana
In-Reply-To: <008f01cb22a8$1e03b280$5a0b1780$@net>
References: <971548.87687.qm@web59915.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<AANLkTilKUl8rebdhWaeFt3jSU5Ci0Sw-9EDfSLLjPi6L@mail.gmail.com>
	<008f01cb22a8$1e03b280$5a0b1780$@net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimSi4Zsb1TzmAODHJbHrm35sX3x0QthQOwZwQ1l@mail.gmail.com>

I have an ailment that is similar in symptom profile to MS. The thing that
works the best is marijuana. If I lived in a place where I could smoke it
legally I would be able to work a job. Instead I must use very strong
opiates (methadone) whose side effects make it very difficult to work any
job at all. The relief I get from marijuana is only slightly less than from
methadone but the side effects are all but nil. Sure I get high on marijuana
but it is nothing compared to how high I get on the methadone, so high in
fact, that I cannot drive or be relied upon for anything.

2010/7/13 Norman Jacobs <wincat at swbell.net>

>  And that is the business of the patient, not the government or persons
> with an opposing agenda.  Such persons should mind their own business.   .
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:
> extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] *On Behalf Of *Thirdeye Of Eris
> *Sent:* Tuesday, July 13, 2010 1:36 AM
> *To:* ExI chat list
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] medical marijuana
>
>
>
> "getting high" is what causes the relief of symptoms in most cases...
>
> 2010/7/12 Post Futurist <p0stfuturist at yahoo.com>
>
> What do you hear, say, concerning the percentage of certified marijuana
> patients who actually use marijuana for medical treatments rather than to
> get high?
> I've been told it is 2 percent.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
>
>
> --
> "A rational anarchist believes that concepts such as ?state? and?society?
> and ?government? have no existence save as physically exemplified in the
> acts of self-responsible individuals. He believes that it is impossible to
> shift blame, share blame, distribute blame... as blame, guilt,
> responsibility are matters taking place inside human beings singly and
> nowhere else. But being rational, he knows that not all individuals hold his
> evaluations, so he tries to live perfectly in an imperfect world... aware
> that his effort will be less than perfect yet undismayed by self-knowledge
> of self-failure."
>
>                 -- Professor De La Paz from The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress by
> Robert Heinlein
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>


-- 
"A rational anarchist believes that concepts such as ?state? and?society?
and ?government? have no existence save as physically exemplified in the
acts of self-responsible individuals. He believes that it is impossible to
shift blame, share blame, distribute blame... as blame, guilt,
responsibility are matters taking place inside human beings singly and
nowhere else. But being rational, he knows that not all individuals hold his
evaluations, so he tries to live perfectly in an imperfect world... aware
that his effort will be less than perfect yet undismayed by self-knowledge
of self-failure."

                -- Professor De La Paz from The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress by
Robert Heinlein
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100713/b4b1089b/attachment.html>

From spike66 at att.net  Wed Jul 14 02:14:59 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 19:14:59 -0700
Subject: [ExI] medical marijuana
Message-ID: <AA328309EBE94A6F8DFDF8F4B7858139@spike>

 
--- On Tue, 7/13/10, samantha <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:


	
	Gregory Jones wrote: 
		 

		>>...Ja agreed, but smoking a plant may be the cheapest way
to administer any drug...
			


	>...Vaporizers are not that expensive and much better for you.  Or
in the case of pot, cooking with it works fine. 
	

Ja, I am no authority on this topic, but with grass can they not devour it?
Do not some make brownies or something?  I think I heard of such a thing at
one time.  
		

	>...Grrrr.  That just ended the entire art of "insurance" and will
eventually end private insurance leaving only government players.  Which was
likely the idea...

I have suspected this too.  Actually what I think will happens is that the
next congress will zero fund the whole thing and it will just collapse under
its own weight.

	
	>...How did the land of freedom fall so far that we allow government
to tell us what to do and to tell insurers who to insure and at what rates?

We elected it.  {8-[  
		

	>...I am also very concerned what will likely happen to medical R&D
and advanced treatments in this country...

No mystery there.  We identified that problem here, long before the current
health care bill was even a serious risk of passing.  It makes medical
research bad business.


  >...I think a lot will not be funded anymore or will not be listed on the
government approved care list...

Of course.  Why was it that the US had so much medical research before?

    >...I also have heard more than a few physician friends say they will
not practice medicine this way...

I couldn't blame them.  I wouldn't either.


  >...Either they opt out of all government programs (many already have)
around medicine and self-fund somehow to keep doing it the way they believe
it should be done or they leave the profession.  This is not at all good
news for we boomers.  
	
	- samantha
	
	
Sure isn't.  I would counterpropose that we pay the price another way.  We
make most medications over-the-counter accessible, without a doctor's help
if the prole chooses to go that route.  With every medication comes
literature that carefully explains the known risks, and the caveat that if a
prole takes this stuff and does it wrong, she might be injured or seriously
killed, buyer beware.

spike





From spike66 at att.net  Wed Jul 14 01:52:28 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 18:52:28 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Lottery winner
Message-ID: <2C5297A9895F43DA8E953047A57DE199@spike>

 
--- On Tue, 7/13/10, Frank McElligott <Frankmac at ripco.com> wrote:



	From: Frank McElligott <Frankmac at ripco.com>
...
	
	
	>...Once wrote  here concerning winning lotteries that if you kept
winning they would stop you from playing, only to find a woman  in Texas who
as won 4 lotteries and the state  of Texas said...Seems she is  a college
Math professor, makes  you wonder that either she has figured it out, or she
has a very high PSI....Hey  what do you think Spike
	 
	
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100713/ap_on_re_us/us_luckiest_lottery_winner 
	 
	Frank

	
Well Frank, let me put it this way.  When Damien writes about Psi and the
edge of our understanding, his claims are not outrageous.  He does not
saying anything like "there is some mysterious something that somehow helps
some lottery players."  He uses carefully balanced and well-thought-out
notions that give us good reasons to think about the topic, but does not
insist that some effect is definitely there.

To say there is no evidence for any of it really isn't quite true.  The four
time lottery winner could be, probably is, just a wildly unlikely anomaly.
But it is some indication that we don't understand everything about
everything.  Ja?  I would rather say something like: "There may be some
phenomena that may be evidence of some kind of psi.  There is no satisfying
explanation for why one lottery player won four times."

Hows that for a non-commital answer?  {8^D  I don't know!

We have other things that have happened that are wildly unlikely.  Cooper
and Boone discovered TWO Mersenne primes, one in december 05 and the other
in September 06.  That one defies logic and can be calculated to be wildly
unlikely, but it happened.

Hey maybe we are living in a sim, and the observers are having a ball
watching how we deal with the occasional anomaly.  Let's keep our eyes open
and our minds sharp, shall we?

spike





From spike66 at att.net  Wed Jul 14 01:52:31 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (Gregory Jones)
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 18:52:31 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Lottery winner
In-Reply-To: <000c01cb22e5$86ea7a80$ad753644@sx28047db9d36c>
Message-ID: <277792.60875.qm@web81503.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



--- On Tue, 7/13/10, Frank McElligott <Frankmac at ripco.com> wrote:


From: Frank McElligott <Frankmac at ripco.com>
Subject: [ExI] Lottery winner
To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
Date: Tuesday, July 13, 2010, 4:45 PM





Once wrote? here concerning winning lotteries that if you kept winning they would stop you from playing, only to find a woman? in Texas who as won 4 lotteries and the state? of Texas said she is on the up and up(depression lingo)
?
Seems?she is ?a college Math professor, makes ?you wonder that either she has figured it out, or she has a very high PSI,:)? Hope is is the former for Clark's sake:)
?
Hey? what do you think Spike
?

?http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100713/ap_on_re_us/us_luckiest_lottery_winner 
?
Frank
-----Inline Attachment Follows-----


_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100713/70dffe43/attachment.html>

From msd001 at gmail.com  Wed Jul 14 03:11:24 2010
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 23:11:24 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: psi yet again
In-Reply-To: <4C3CE66C.5050807@satx.rr.com>
References: <mailman.1.1277553603.2126.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<AANLkTimKQJf4UVjigRHQY9spD3YNb55zQQnOJyhE771d@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C266A99.8030706@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTikwBc-FR-Na0SXy0UBgy2qQpsuzibU3uSRr6v7K@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C2678F9.4050801@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTingR7QSuKJQknpam8qVD1-z9JnrrgcYSlDvPhCb@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C26954D.5020704@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTikf4pcV-eOOSlGgQG474Thy4QP07dj2Fp4X5LwX@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C269D20.8090005@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTimp2vzwgovSgcnEedm-Rev9kW6WaDZ7DMw22qPa@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C26AB88.2000009@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTinoxW4asA-zOnA8TJS806mAl0lfc8ArbR7NTRmu@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C26BED5.6070409@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTinrp7FxNz3MOTgK4iGmEOvsAyzQb1MDMP0gJcK5@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C28F4B0.2060208@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTikC-t6dqL-2y30mZRZxglOtFcv7DariVpUBdh9p@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C294EAB.7060902@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTinAMY-pIu_FE-btWLrSeTKmqbWwYzbeE5seaEcz@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikHfe7uxpyWLMo4Jj345MNd0DVPhTT3fYYP9WT8@mail.gmail.com>
	<374632.6987.qm@web65603.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<4C3CE66C.5050807@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimdf8LPcdCtTTKGy2bddkNa29YjnpAVsV0j8fFX@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jul 13, 2010 at 6:19 PM, Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com> wrote:
> On 7/13/2010 4:45 PM, The Avantguardian wrote:
>
>> Joan Ginther is an interesting case study for potential psi effects or
>> *something*. She has a PhD. in math and won the Texas Lotto 4 times
>
> *Something*. Three of them were scratchies (not lotto), two from the same
> store, hard to explain by psi. Maybe she's manipulating the deep grammar
> code of this simulation... If the winner's name had been Greg Egan I'd be
> sure of it.

wouldn't that be a rather obvious tell?  :)

though if one can do said task, money from lotto is certainly only an
amusing trick one does to prove a point, no?


From msd001 at gmail.com  Wed Jul 14 04:05:01 2010
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 00:05:01 -0400
Subject: [ExI] New York Times piece on cryonics,
	featuring Robin Hanson & 	Peggy
In-Reply-To: <748DF8953757438D8B67C87CD7933BF3@DFC68LF1>
References: <mailman.1.1278936002.11479.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<77022.87917.qm@web114412.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<AANLkTiloGHt5M-R5XJb02ttI-Wtdhpq72YdYF9ISJLEA@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C3B6B3C.5020004@satx.rr.com>
	<20100712192349.5wfgzv7q8go0s0cg@webmail.natasha.cc>
	<AANLkTineX1Ez_qe6ilHwneRC1iu0mWiavR5IuQ4QVQ16@mail.gmail.com>
	<748DF8953757438D8B67C87CD7933BF3@DFC68LF1>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinAatCJDJMXx6mBcuyQA25Pzkhi-rGgGlg9Cp14@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jul 13, 2010 at 10:06 AM, Natasha Vita-More <natasha at natasha.cc> wrote:
> But let me remind you all that the concept of what is or is not dead has
> changed over the eons.

So what happens when someone is pronounced dead, cryogenically
suspended then reanimated:  are they undead?  Or does that term only
apply to those who tirelessly chase the living attempting to eat their
brains?  Hmm... this gives new meaning to a term seen frequently in
identity threads on this list: philosophical zombie.  Just above the
p-zombie subsection on the zombie wikipedia page is zombie apocalypse
(which probably owes its position due to greater relevance, right?)
I propose a hybrid concept:

philosophical zombie apocalypse - it's a singularity event where
society completely collapses but nobody notices because the remaining
population lacks any sense of what was previously termed qualia.
Maybe this already happened.

> It will be interesting to see what the next definition of dead will be, and
> if a person has to be legally dead before suspension. ?And it will be
> interesting to see how dead will be redefined if and when cognition is
> distributed and/or a person has more than one persona existing in different
> platforms and/or time frames.

Is legally dead more or less dead than the normal definition?  Even
mostly dead is slightly alive.  :)

"Dead as a doornail" refers to the practice of bending the tip of the
nail after it's hammered through two pieces of wood to make a door.
By deadening (clinching) the nail the carpenter prevents the door from
coming apart but also prevents the nail from being reused (such as by
burning the door and recovering the nail).  In a time when each nail
was crafted by a smith, one must have been more careful about how they
were used.  I know this wasn't an intended definition of dead in this
context ...

Dead may become more suggestive of dormancy.  "this pub is really dead
around 11:00 am, but it'll be busy for happy hour"  it may also be
suggestive of depleted energy reserves:  "I worked a 14 hour day, I'm
dead tired".  Or "this laptop won't work because of a dead battery".
In both cases a recharge can restore "life" to make "dead" less
problematic.

It seems taboo to repurpose death in such a casual way.  However, once
people as we know them are as always-on as all the other machines
around modern man[kind] it will be difficult to understand the term in
our current context.  It will be like trying to explain to a child
today that there was once a time of day when TV programming simply
stopped.  (the first time I was allowed to stay up late enough to
witness that event I was shocked and confused, then angry, then
disappointed, then very sleepy.)



From p0stfuturist at yahoo.com  Wed Jul 14 03:56:10 2010
From: p0stfuturist at yahoo.com (Post Futurist)
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 20:56:10 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] New York Times piece on cryonics,
	featuring Robin Hanson &  Peggy
In-Reply-To: <4C3D0AA9.3000707@mac.com>
Message-ID: <679808.90113.qm@web59907.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

It might be a substantial advance if at some point in the future the cryopreservation of those not yet deceased is allowed. Can any of you physiologist guess what such might be?



      
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100713/b44d5261/attachment.html>

From msd001 at gmail.com  Wed Jul 14 04:13:36 2010
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 00:13:36 -0400
Subject: [ExI] medical marijuana
In-Reply-To: <AA328309EBE94A6F8DFDF8F4B7858139@spike>
References: <AA328309EBE94A6F8DFDF8F4B7858139@spike>
Message-ID: <AANLkTilrblEH9YdXRNIh0GAEluedNwokK1c-c-KeoesJ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jul 13, 2010 at 10:14 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> Sure isn't. ?I would counterpropose that we pay the price another way. ?We
> make most medications over-the-counter accessible, without a doctor's help
> if the prole chooses to go that route. ?With every medication comes
> literature that carefully explains the known risks, and the caveat that if a
> prole takes this stuff and does it wrong, she might be injured or seriously
> killed, buyer beware.

seriously killed?  Compared to humorously killed I can indeed see why
one should be warned.

Or maybe with a new definition of death patients can tolerate a bit of
being killed as a normal side effect as long as there is another pill
to mitigate anything up to legal death (which I believe is the serious
death analog to being seriously killed)

sorry spike, I just didn't want to ignore such an amusing combination
of words.  :)

btw, I agree.



From msd001 at gmail.com  Wed Jul 14 04:25:09 2010
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 00:25:09 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Lottery winner
In-Reply-To: <2C5297A9895F43DA8E953047A57DE199@spike>
References: <2C5297A9895F43DA8E953047A57DE199@spike>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimeY6NNQINz0lxJngLab6bXt4YaYnNZQChVfcPk@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jul 13, 2010 at 9:52 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> We have other things that have happened that are wildly unlikely. ?Cooper
> and Boone discovered TWO Mersenne primes, one in december 05 and the other
> in September 06. ?That one defies logic and can be calculated to be wildly
> unlikely, but it happened.
>
> Hey maybe we are living in a sim, and the observers are having a ball
> watching how we deal with the occasional anomaly. ?Let's keep our eyes open
> and our minds sharp, shall we?

I believe more thought is warranted on the Mersenne prime graph you
posted a few months ago.  The slope of lines drawn through consecutive
primes changed noticeably at some point in the progression.  The 'run'
of >3 primes along each of those lines seems significant too.

Does this number spiral mean something too? [1]  Or are math nerds
simply constructing a very complex filter for viewing random noise in
a way that appears to have a meaningful pattern?  Where I was
non-committal answer John Clark's question about it being more fun to
believe in psi, I readily admit that I do think it is more fun to
believe there is a deeper order in numbers than we are currently able
to understand.  Maybe it's a similar form of self-delusion, but I am
more compelled by numbers than anything anyone has ever told me.  Of
that I am sure.

[1] http://numberspiral.com/



From spike66 at att.net  Wed Jul 14 05:32:58 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 22:32:58 -0700
Subject: [ExI] lottery winner
Message-ID: <4326323CC4C5482E847A245014158777@spike>




--- On Tue, 7/13/10, Mike Dougherty <msd001 at gmail.com> wrote:
      
        On Tue, Jul 13, 2010 at 9:52 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net
      
        >>...Cooper
        > and Boone discovered TWO Mersenne primes, one in december 05 and
the other
        > in September 06.  That one defies logic and can be calculated to
be wildly
        > unlikely, but it happened... Hey maybe we are living in a sim, and
the observers are having a ball
        > watching how we deal with the occasional anomaly.  Let's keep our
eyes open
        > and our minds sharp, shall we?
      
        >I believe more thought is warranted on the Mersenne prime graph you
        posted a few months ago...

To this you refer, ja?




We aren't supposed to post images on ExI, but this isn't a bitmap.  Rather,
this is a microsloth object, so it takes only a
tiny fraction of the memory of any digital image.  Perhaps this fulfills the
spirit of the requirement.


        >...The slope of lines drawn through consecutive
        primes changed noticeably at some point in the progression.  The
'run'
        of >3 primes along each of those lines seems significant too...

Ja, it seems so crazy, I can't understand it.  That graph has shaken the
very foundation of everything I have believed for all my adult life.  How
can it be?  How?
 
Here's the data, if you want to fool with it yourself.  The columns are
marked.  For instance, reading across the first row, the first Mersenne
prime is 2^2-1 = 3, so the exponent is 2 and the log(2) of 2 is 1: 
 
 
serial number	 exponent	 log(2) of exponent	
			
1	 2	 1.0000	
2	 3	 1.5850	
3	 5	 2.3219	
4	 7	 2.8074	
5	 13	 3.7004	
6	 17	 4.0875	
7	 19	 4.2479	
8	 31	 4.9542	
9	 61	 5.9307	
10	 89	 6.4757	
11	 107	 6.7415	
12	 127	 6.9887	
13	 521	 9.0251	
14	 607	 9.2456	
15	 1279	 10.3208	
16	 2203	 11.1053	
17	 2281	 11.1555	
18	 3217	 11.6515	
19	 4253	 12.0543	
20	 4423	 12.1108	
21	 9689	 13.2421	
22	 9941	 13.2792	
23	 11213	 13.4529	
24	 19937	 14.2832	
25	 21701	 14.4055	
26	 23209	 14.5024	
27	 44497	 15.4414	
28	 86243	 16.3961	
29	 110503	 16.7537	
30	 132049	 17.0107	
31	 216091	 17.7213	
32	 756839	 19.5296	
33	 859433	 19.7130	
34	 1257787	 20.2625	
35	 1398269	 20.4152	
36	 2976221	 21.5051	
37	 3021377	 21.5268	
38	 6972593	 22.7333	
39	 13466917	 23.6829	
40	 20996011	 24.3236	
41	 24036583	 24.5187	
42	 25964951	 24.6301	
43	 30402457	 24.8577	
44	 32582657	 24.9576	
45	 37156667	 25.1471	
46	 42643801	 25.3458	
47	 43112609	 25.3616	
 

     
        >...Does this number spiral mean something too? [1]  Or are math
nerds
        simply constructing a very complex filter for viewing random noise
in
        a way that appears to have a meaningful pattern?...

The number spiral is something that has delighted me endlessly, but I have
not lost any sleep over it, as did the last seven Mersenne primes.  Why are
there eight of them bunched together way out there in the 24s and 25s?  I
expected a big empty Mersenne Desert out there, a most disappointing late
2000s, but we get this unexpected torrential downpour from a clear blue sky.
Cue the Twilight Zone music.
 
Did you guys see The Truman Show?  If not, get it and view it.  I feel like
Truman, when he has spotted something really weird and can't explain it.
 
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0120382/plotsummary

Truman Show is my favorite movie, and very relevant to this discussion.
Perhaps we are software Trumans.*  
 
Or you are.


        >Where I was...
        non-committal answer John Clark's question about it being more fun
to
        believe in psi, I readily admit that I do think it is more fun to
        believe there is a deeper order in numbers than we are currently
able
        to understand...

"More fun to believe" is to me completely irrelevant.  In my mind, if I do
not believe something, it matters not one bit how much fun it is to believe
it.  I don't believe still.  Tough luck for me, no fun for me.  Search,
search for evidence.  Live and believe based on evidence, only, ever.


        >...Maybe it's a similar form of self-delusion, but I am
        more compelled by numbers than anything anyone has ever told me.  Of
        that I am sure.
      
        [1] http://numberspiral.com/
      
      
Thanks for the link Mike.  Numbers are my friends.  I see ads saying this
company or that company won't treat you like a number.  I never understood
that.  I want to be treated like a number.  I treat numbers with great
respect!  People, well, some of them.  Numbers?  All of them.
Transcendentals get even more respect, for I know that even tho I know they
contain, in their digital form, all that pornography and such, they also
contain every cool and mind boggling commentary ever written and all that
will ever be written, and a whole bunch of really cool stuff that will never
be written, the funniest jokes, the most uplifting and inspiring notions
never conceived.  All ExI-chat people, do feel free, compelled even, to
treat me like a number.
 
spike

* I expect the term "Software Truman" to become a common term meaning
something like an avatar, only it is you, and the universal Sim is all about
feeding information to make you think you are living inside some sort of
carbon based glob of protoplasm, when in fact you, my good Software Truman,
are really nothing more than a bunch of bits, flying around in some
meta-computer in a meta-universe.  I hereby donate to the public domain the
intellectual property rights to "Software Truman."  But remember you heard
it first from me, your simulated math-fan friend, and consequently you must
treat me with respect, like a number.  s
 
 



-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100713/f0d518f7/attachment.html>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: att7b7a6.gif
Type: image/gif
Size: 4039 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100713/f0d518f7/attachment.gif>

From thespike at satx.rr.com  Wed Jul 14 05:54:09 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 00:54:09 -0500
Subject: [ExI] [The Truman Show
In-Reply-To: <4326323CC4C5482E847A245014158777@spike>
References: <4326323CC4C5482E847A245014158777@spike>
Message-ID: <4C3D5101.8050807@satx.rr.com>

On 7/14/2010 12:32 AM, spike wrote:

>   Did you guys see The Truman Show?  If not, get it and view it.  I feel
> like Truman, when he has spotted something really weird and can't
> explain it.
> http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0120382/plotsummary
>
> Truman Show is my favorite movie, and very relevant to this discussion.

If only you'd read Phil Dick's brilliant novel TIME OUT OF JOINT, as I 
did when I was 15. Now it's been stolen by TRUMAN and other ripoffs 
perhaps the ontological shock has lost its value.

In a study of sf semiotics, I mentioned

< the bleak, utterly unpretentious prose of Dick's TIME OUT OF JOINT. 
The ontologically devastating fact to keep in mind through this passage 
is that luckless Ragle Gumm's experience is not a metaphor, not a 
psychotic hallucination. This is the stuff of his being-in-the-world. It 
is a postulate possible only in an sf text, the concretisation of what 
elsewhere, even in the postmodern, would almost inevitably have to be 
read as figurative:

	Reaching around in his pockets, he found some change. A line of kids 
waited at the soft-drink stand; the kids were buying hot dogs and 
popsicles and Eskimo Pies and orange drink. He joined them.
	How quiet everything was.
	Stunning desolation washed over him. What a waste his life had been....
  	The soft-drink stand fell into bits. Molecules. He saw the molecules, 
colourless, without qualities, that made it up. Then he saw through, 
into the space beyond it, he saw the hill behind, the trees and sky. He 
saw the soft-drink stand go out of existence, along with the counter 
man, the cash register, the big dispenser of orange drink, the taps for 
Coke and root beer,....
	In its place was a slip of paper. He reached out his hand and took hold 
of the slip of paper. On it was printing, block letters.

	SOFT-DRINK STAND >

That was a moment to tear the top of your head off in 1960.

Damien Broderick


From wingcat at pacbell.net  Wed Jul 14 07:04:13 2010
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 00:04:13 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] medical marijuana
In-Reply-To: <AA328309EBE94A6F8DFDF8F4B7858139@spike>
Message-ID: <704183.67527.qm@web81607.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

--- On Tue, 7/13/10, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> Sure isn't.? I would counterpropose that we pay the
> price another way.? We
> make most medications over-the-counter accessible, without
> a doctor's help
> if the prole chooses to go that route.? With every
> medication comes
> literature that carefully explains the known risks, and the
> caveat that if a
> prole takes this stuff and does it wrong, she might be
> injured or seriously
> killed, buyer beware.

That's been tried in other fields, notably software
engineering.

A) Most such users do not Read The F(ine) Manual.

B) They sue - and sometimes win - when they get hurt anyway.
(Thus EULAs, in an attempt to ward off the most blatant of
these.)

C) In the case of medicine, many products affect one's
ability to make rational judgments - thus, the product
makes it more likely that you would overdose yourself, with
potentially fatal effects.



From giulio at gmail.com  Wed Jul 14 15:01:09 2010
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 17:01:09 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Chemical brain preservation: cryonics for uploaders
Message-ID: <AANLkTilCU4YyNh2jsHG69d50GXZrAigsXjkoNqflDGgn@mail.gmail.com>

Chemical brain preservation: cryonics for uploaders
http://giulioprisco.blogspot.com/2010/07/chemical-brain-preservation-cryonics.html

A new essay with a new spin and some interesting recent developments
on a previously discussed topic, for your comments


From wincat at swbell.net  Wed Jul 14 15:13:13 2010
From: wincat at swbell.net (Norman Jacobs)
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 10:13:13 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Lottery winner
In-Reply-To: <277792.60875.qm@web81503.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <000c01cb22e5$86ea7a80$ad753644@sx28047db9d36c>
	<277792.60875.qm@web81503.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <007f01cb2367$1491bc50$3db534f0$@net>

We should ask this lady to buy tickets for us.

 

From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Gregory Jones
Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2010 8:53 PM
To: ExI chat list
Subject: Re: [ExI] Lottery winner

 




--- On Tue, 7/13/10, Frank McElligott <Frankmac at ripco.com> wrote:


From: Frank McElligott <Frankmac at ripco.com>
Subject: [ExI] Lottery winner
To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
Date: Tuesday, July 13, 2010, 4:45 PM

Once wrote  here concerning winning lotteries that if you kept winning they
would stop you from playing, only to find a woman  in Texas who as won 4
lotteries and the state  of Texas said she is on the up and up(depression
lingo)

 

Seems she is  a college Math professor, makes  you wonder that either she
has figured it out, or she has a very high PSI,:)  Hope is is the former for
Clark's sake:)

 

Hey  what do you think Spike

 

 

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100713/ap_on_re_us/us_luckiest_lottery_winner 

 

Frank


-----Inline Attachment Follows-----

_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
<http://us.mc815.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> 
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100714/52d5a952/attachment.html>

From jonkc at bellsouth.net  Wed Jul 14 15:17:11 2010
From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John Clark)
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 11:17:11 -0400
Subject: [ExI] [The Truman Show
In-Reply-To: <4C3D5101.8050807@satx.rr.com>
References: <4326323CC4C5482E847A245014158777@spike>
	<4C3D5101.8050807@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <0BDF7B4F-35FA-4A88-A7CA-7F1DF28A52AD@bellsouth.net>

On 7/14/2010 12:32 AM, spike wrote:
> 
> Truman Show is my favorite movie, and very relevant to this discussion.

I liked "The Truman Show", but just a few months after it came out there was another movie that few have heard of called "The Thirteenth Floor" that had many of the same themes and handled them even more skillfully. I suppose everybody thought it was just a Truman knock-off but it was based on the book "Simulacron-3" by Daniel F Galouye first published in 1964.

And speaking of movies, I think the best movie of Extropian interest to come out in the last 20 years is Christopher (Batman) Nolan's "The Prestige"; I look forward to his new movie opening in just a few days "Inception". 

 John K Clark 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100714/251fe41e/attachment.html>

From thespike at satx.rr.com  Wed Jul 14 17:38:29 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 12:38:29 -0500
Subject: [ExI] [The Truman Show
In-Reply-To: <0BDF7B4F-35FA-4A88-A7CA-7F1DF28A52AD@bellsouth.net>
References: <4326323CC4C5482E847A245014158777@spike>	<4C3D5101.8050807@satx.rr.com>
	<0BDF7B4F-35FA-4A88-A7CA-7F1DF28A52AD@bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <4C3DF615.6060300@satx.rr.com>

On 7/14/2010 10:17 AM, John Clark wrote:

> And speaking of movies, I think the best movie of Extropian interest to
> come out in the last 20 years is Christopher (Batman) Nolan's "The
> Prestige"

Based, of course, on Christopher (Inverted World) Priest's more complex 
and brilliant novel THE PRESTIGE.

Damien Broderick


From p0stfuturist at yahoo.com  Wed Jul 14 00:20:32 2010
From: p0stfuturist at yahoo.com (Post Futurist)
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 17:20:32 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] medical marijuana
In-Reply-To: <461912.82759.qm@web30105.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <887067.51209.qm@web59903.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

"eliminate states and turn over the statists to me for medical experimenta -- er, re-education.
>Dan"

Not a bad idea, Dan; 
how about as a first step, since men are the gender wanting power-- with or without the state-- so much, turn the game over to women. You think?

?



      
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100713/1730cded/attachment.html>

From p0stfuturist at yahoo.com  Tue Jul 13 18:07:21 2010
From: p0stfuturist at yahoo.com (Post Futurist)
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 11:07:21 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] medical marijuana
Message-ID: <747013.5017.qm@web59913.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>


"And that is the business of the patient, not the government or persons with an opposing agenda.? Such persons should mind their own business.
?>Norman Jacobs"
?
This is?not at all to?suggest you are wrong on marijuana;?cannabis will certainly be less & less legally controlled over the years-- as should be the case with something offering such benefits. In other words I do not say you are wrong on anything, but?AM saying I do not share your optimism. In examining humanity the question isn't even about freedom so much, freedom appears to be almost?insignificant relative?to power?& violence. Perhaps freedom, genuine freedom, sans coercion, is for the 22nd century, not the 21st?
Libertarianism at this time IMO is tempting, but not convincing enough.


      
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100713/2850e3cc/attachment.html>

From ross.evans11 at gmail.com  Wed Jul 14 15:44:37 2010
From: ross.evans11 at gmail.com (Ross Evans)
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 16:44:37 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Thankyou LEF
Message-ID: <AANLkTincXhwiblMh_zAhCF4Qh3bfGmE1T-VWC-5XMTUX@mail.gmail.com>

http://longevitymeme.org/news/view_news_item.cfm?news_id=4810

They really deserve an awful lot of praise for doing this. The pharma
industry has showed no interest due to the lack of a patentable end product.

Ross
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100714/e6d4abf5/attachment.html>

From spike66 at att.net  Wed Jul 14 17:56:24 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 10:56:24 -0700
Subject: [ExI] the truman show and psi
Message-ID: <81F1D6629B164E1584D7E9E8B0992058@spike>

 
--- On Wed, 7/14/10, John Clark <jonkc at bellsouth.net> wrote:

	
	On 7/14/2010 12:32 AM, spike wrote:
	
		>>...Truman Show is my favorite movie, and very relevant to
this discussion... spike

	>...I liked "The Truman Show", but just a few months after it came
out there was another movie that few have heard of called "The Thirteenth
Floor" that had many of the same themes and handled them even more
skillfully... John K Clark 


John, here's my transhumanist take on The Truman Show, and how it is related
to Psi, a topic in which you have been involved as I recall.

Yesterday I saw a puzzle that I had first solved about 30 yrs ago in closed
form: a square dance leader invites 17 of her friends to a square dance
party, gives each a number from 2 to 18, keeping number 1 for herself.  She
instructs each to find a partner such that the sum of their numbers is a
perfect square.  What is her partner's number?

Thirty years ago I solved it closed form.  This time I have a competent
computer, so I decided to write a sim, having the partners pair up in every
possible combination, to show that the host's partner could only have one
possible number.  That sim took about 50 minutes to run, and I solved it
closed form before the sim finished, but the point is this: the sim dancers
did something I cannot do: dance thru every possible combination.  My life
isn't long enough to do that.  Keep that thought and read on please, for
this post is actually about Psi.

The Truman Show had a bunch of interesting subthemes, such as autonomy, or
possibly the illusion of free will, privacy, government authority, assumed
authority, and so forth, but there was something else which many of us
humans here will likely relate.  Truman had a girl he really loved, but one
day POOF she was gone to Fiji.  Into his lap (literally) fell the dazzling
sweetheart Laura Linney.  Hey, well, for Laura Linney, maybe Miss Fiji would
hafta go, for here is Laura, sweet, kind, good, beautiful.  So she has this
puzzling habit of endorsing household products for some unknown and unseen
sponsor.  We can overlook that for all her other fine traits.

But Truman can never quite forget Miss Fiji, a burning memory of a girl of
whom he has not even one photo.  He has Linney, and oh my, she is a fiiine
specimen of womankind.  But there is an aching empty space in his heart
which Miss Fiji once occupied, where she is sorely missed.  Do not most of
us here have a Miss Fiji?  How did that feel when you saw Truman buying the
magazines, trying to piece together a picture of his missing first love?  I
could relate, for I had a Miss Fiji, and I now have a wonderful and
satisfying life with my own Laura Linney, only better, with all Laura's
beauty, sweetness and kindness, with none of the annoying product
endorsements.  Life is gooood, and getting better.  

During the Truman Show, mistakes and anomalies kept coming up.  At the beach
with the family, a guy pops out of the trash can, "TRUMAN!  It's all fake,
you're on TV!"  Five guys grab him and haul him away, as child Truman
wonders "Whaaaat in the heeeeelllll?"

Now, imagine a species of super intelligent super programmers, who cannot
feel emotion themselves, but want to observe and understand the phenomenon,
so they write a sim that can do things they cannot do, analogous to my
dancer sim above.  They create an elaborate digital set, analogous to
Truman's world, just to see what their emotion-capable sim guy will do.

Is it so difficult to imagine that we are the Software Trumans, or that you
are, and those around you are merely three-dimensional avatars, part of the
set, digital actors analogous to everyone in Truman's world?  Could it be
that the baffling unexplainable stuff we see around us are the mistakes and
anomalies, Truman's beach guy in the trash can, possibly intentional
anomalies such as Psi, the Texas lottery champion, the last eight Mersenne
primes, quantum mechanics?  If so, how would you figure it out?  What
experiments would you run?  

Is it so hard to imagine that we, or you, exist so that some unemotional
superprogrammers can study what it is like to feel pain and joy, to wonder,
to grieve, to love? 

spike





 



From bbenzai at yahoo.com  Wed Jul 14 19:38:40 2010
From: bbenzai at yahoo.com (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 12:38:40 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] medical marijuana
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1160.1279085586.10820.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <221122.7014.qm@web114415.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

"spike" <spike66 at att.net> jested:

...
> Ja, I am no authority on this topic, but with grass can
> they not devour it?
> Do not some make brownies or something?? I think I
> heard of such a thing at
> one time.? 

LOL. Spike, you forgot the winkicon at the end of that sentence!

(come on, even if you've never done it, it deserves a wink)

Ben Zaiboc


      




From bbenzai at yahoo.com  Wed Jul 14 19:34:03 2010
From: bbenzai at yahoo.com (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 12:34:03 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Belief in maths
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1152.1279068413.10820.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <217317.48611.qm@web114407.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

samantha <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:

> Some of us just have this deep desire
> or determination 
> to integrate everything we possibly can.? We cannot
> tolerate keeping 
> somethings outside the attempted integration.? It
> doesn't seem to be a 
> matter of intelligence although more of the people with
> this 
> characteristic are more intelligent.???I am
> not sure if it is even a 
> matter of conscious decision to seek this full
> integration.? ? But I do 
> think the same thing that made me at one time a gung ho
> mystic is what 
> led me away from it - this deep desire to understand, to
> know, to make 
> sense of it all.

I believe you're on to something here.  I can't claim to be very intelligent, but can relate to this 'deep desire to understand'. I've always had it, and am very familiar with the sheer pain of frustration at not understanding something (not helped by not being very bright!).

Maybe there really are 10 kinds of people: Those who want to understand binary, and those who don't really care.  I'd hazard a guess that the former are more likely to be atheists, and the latter, religious.

Ben Zaiboc


      




From thespike at satx.rr.com  Wed Jul 14 20:01:50 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 15:01:50 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Belief in maths
In-Reply-To: <217317.48611.qm@web114407.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <217317.48611.qm@web114407.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4C3E17AE.6020200@satx.rr.com>

On 7/14/2010 2:34 PM, Ben Zaiboc wrote:

> am very familiar with the sheer pain of frustration at not understanding something (not helped by not being very bright!).

What makes you say that, Ben? Do you mean "bright but not *very* 
bright"--which probably applies to most of us here--or "rather ordinary, 
not bright" which seems from your posts to be untrue.

Damien Broderick


From spike66 at att.net  Wed Jul 14 20:43:53 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (Gregory Jones)
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 13:43:53 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] medical marijuana
In-Reply-To: <221122.7014.qm@web114415.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <68847.28387.qm@web81505.mail.mud.yahoo.com>


--- On Wed, 7/14/10, Ben Zaiboc <bbenzai at yahoo.com> wrote:
?
>> Ja, I am no authority on this topic, but with grass can?they not devour it?
>> Do not some make brownies or something?? I think I?heard of such a thing at
>> one time... spike? 

>LOL. Spike, you forgot the winkicon at the end of that sentence!

>(come on, even if you've never done it, it deserves a wink)

>Ben Zaiboc

?
OK, ---->? {8^D.? 
?
No jest however.? That "scene"?wasn't part of my growing up years.? In the 60s in Titusville Florida, everything was space and moon and rockets?and technology and such.? Everything was very GIJoe, although I didn't know it at the time.? I just assumed it was?like that?everywhere.? Long hair and beads were not seen.? It really was like the Merle Haggard song:
?
http://www.wikio.com/video/merle-haggard----okie-muskogee-958209
?
In the 70s, everything was about the local decade-long recession, families losing their homes, despair.? Ben I didn't even realize I was a redneck until I moved to Calfornia.? Damien Broderick was the first close friend I ever had who was a genuine "hippie" type, and I didn't meet him until I was in my late 30s.
?
So, really.? I heard that marijuana brownies existed, or rather I think I remember hearing of that from a long time ago, but if so, it seems that would be a much cleaner way to?ingest that particular medication, ja?? Nein?? If one can devour that stuff, why would one make that stinky smoke and risk one's lungs?? Offlist answer OK.? I guess I could google on too.
?
Now of course I am a super sophisticated man of the world, having lived most of my life in this?"hip"?"swinging"?Silicon Valley dontcha know.? It's a real "happening" kind of place, with lots of "hipsters" and such as that.
?
spike
?
?
?
?
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100714/0af86477/attachment.html>

From thespike at satx.rr.com  Wed Jul 14 21:57:52 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 16:57:52 -0500
Subject: [ExI] medical marijuana
In-Reply-To: <68847.28387.qm@web81505.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <68847.28387.qm@web81505.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4C3E32E0.9040008@satx.rr.com>

On 7/14/2010 3:43 PM, Gregory Jones wrote:

> Damien Broderick was the first close friend I ever had who was a genuine
> "hippie" type, and I didn't meet him until I was in my late 30s.

Ha. I was a hippie only in the sense that Dan Quayle was an astronaut. 
("Welcome to President Bush, Mrs. Bush, and my fellow astronauts.")## I 
once appeared on TV in the late '60s in Australia made up with goopy 
flowers on my face, the makeup grrl's idea of prime hippieness, on a 
game show where various imposters vied with the genuine article. I 
wasn't picked by any of the panel, so I wasn't even a good fake hippie. 
Later on I did have Jesus hair down to my waist, almost, and a hefty 
foliage on my face. But I very, very rarely inhaled, and then only out 
of politeness. I didn't want to mess with the wetware.

Damien Broderick

##sadly, this is apparently a misquote:

Video footage shows Quayle saying:
	"Thank you very much Bob, Mr. President, Mrs. Bush, Dick Truly and 
fellow astronauts, and ladies and gentlemen."

However, this one is even better:

	"Mars is essentially in the same orbit.? Mars is somewhat the same 
distance from the Sun, which is very important. We have seen pictures 
where there are canals, we believe, and water. If there is water, that 
means there is oxygen. If oxygen, that means we can breathe."
     * Press comment on Mars exploration (11 August 1989), televised on 
CNN and referenced in 9/1/89 Washington Post article: "A Quayle Vision 
of Mars")



From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Wed Jul 14 21:31:24 2010
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 14:31:24 -0700
Subject: [ExI] How could this former math professor find an edge in playing
	the lottery???
Message-ID: <AANLkTiledF3emXSnC-7ugDO84R-FK5vlijozxy4P91gL@mail.gmail.com>

Does anyone here have a theory regarding how this former math
professor won the lottery FOUR TIMES??  She must have figured
something out to give herself a very significant edge...  Applied
mathematics? Psi?  Computer hacking?  Or maybe she's a time traveler
who likes the simple life?  ; )

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100713/ap_on_re_us/us_luckiest_lottery_winner

John


From msd001 at gmail.com  Wed Jul 14 22:04:50 2010
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 18:04:50 -0400
Subject: [ExI] the truman show and psi
In-Reply-To: <81F1D6629B164E1584D7E9E8B0992058@spike>
References: <81F1D6629B164E1584D7E9E8B0992058@spike>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikxXckAqBQ6JlCLpEUeU3vmEgicmDCw97UnGEfH@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jul 14, 2010 at 1:56 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> Is it so hard to imagine that we, or you, exist so that some unemotional
> superprogrammers can study what it is like to feel pain and joy, to wonder,
> to grieve, to love?

not hard at all.  It's profoundly simple.  Looking for more than that
is difficult.

"You mean that's ALL it is?  Hmm.... Now what?"


From thespike at satx.rr.com  Wed Jul 14 22:21:32 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 17:21:32 -0500
Subject: [ExI] How could this former math professor find an edge in
 playing the lottery???
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTiledF3emXSnC-7ugDO84R-FK5vlijozxy4P91gL@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTiledF3emXSnC-7ugDO84R-FK5vlijozxy4P91gL@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4C3E386C.2060703@satx.rr.com>

On 7/14/2010 4:31 PM, John Grigg wrote:

> She must have figured
> something out to give herself a very significant edge...  Applied
> mathematics?

How can you "figure out" which winning scratch ticket to buy in the same 
store at different times? Aren't you given the next one in the queue?

I didn't read the press story closely, but I thought it possible that at 
least one of the wins might have been minor. Or were they all top 
$million+ prizes?

Damien Broderick


From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Wed Jul 14 23:32:44 2010
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 16:32:44 -0700
Subject: [ExI] How could this former math professor find an edge in
	playing the lottery???
In-Reply-To: <4C3E386C.2060703@satx.rr.com>
References: <AANLkTiledF3emXSnC-7ugDO84R-FK5vlijozxy4P91gL@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C3E386C.2060703@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTik58_R4Zu-q6YwLJTLpeLdbBX_415UxkZZv6bfe@mail.gmail.com>

Yes, the next one in the queue is sold to you by the clerk.  I have
only seen the low win "rippies" available in big jars where you use
your "psi" to pick yourself a lucky one. lol

All of the woman's wins were in million dollar multiples.

>From the article:
On a $50 scratch-off ticket bought in this rural farming community,
Ginther won $10 million last month in her biggest windfall yet. But it
was the fourth winning ticket in Texas for the 63-year-old former
college professor since 1993, when Ginther split an $11 million
jackpot and became the most famous native in Bishop history.

But she's a celebrity who few in this town of 3,300 people can say much about.

"That lady is pretty much scarce to everybody," said Lucas Ray Cruz,
Ginther's former neighbor. "That's just the way she is."

At the Times Market where Ginther bought her last two winning tickets,
the highway gas station is fast becoming a pilgrimage for unlucky
lottery losers. Lines stretch deep past a $5.98 bin of Mexican movie
DVDs, and a woman from

Rhode Island called last week asking to buy tickets from the charmed
store through the mail.

She was told that was illegal. The woman called back to plead again anyway.

The Texas Lottery Commission has seen repeat winners before, but none
on the scale of Ginther. Spokesman Bobby Heith said the agency has
never investigated Ginther's winnings ? three scratch-off tickets and
one lottery draw ? for possible fraud but described the verification
system as thorough. Her other winnings ? both from scratch-off tickets
? were $2 million in 2006 and $3 million in 2008.
>>>

John


On 7/14/10, Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com> wrote:
> On 7/14/2010 4:31 PM, John Grigg wrote:
>
>> She must have figured
>> something out to give herself a very significant edge...  Applied
>> mathematics?
>
> How can you "figure out" which winning scratch ticket to buy in the same
> store at different times? Aren't you given the next one in the queue?
>
> I didn't read the press story closely, but I thought it possible that at
> least one of the wins might have been minor. Or were they all top
> $million+ prizes?
>
> Damien Broderick
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>



From ismirth at gmail.com  Wed Jul 14 23:39:22 2010
From: ismirth at gmail.com (Isabelle Hakala)
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 19:39:22 -0400
Subject: [ExI] How could this former math professor find an edge in
	playing the lottery???
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTiledF3emXSnC-7ugDO84R-FK5vlijozxy4P91gL@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTiledF3emXSnC-7ugDO84R-FK5vlijozxy4P91gL@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTin6AG80YMYbuceV9K6rTJIpaPi8h5xtWR8ZX5OW@mail.gmail.com>

Three of them were scratches from what I read... and apparently she buys
them enmasse.... scratchers are an ods game. The one time she one fron a
lottery ticket? Who knows about *that* one... ? :)

On Jul 14, 2010 6:02 PM, "John Grigg" <possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com> wrote:

Does anyone here have a theory regarding how this former math
professor won the lottery FOUR TIMES??  She must have figured
something out to give herself a very significant edge...  Applied
mathematics? Psi?  Computer hacking?  Or maybe she's a time traveler
who likes the simple life?  ; )

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100713/ap_on_re_us/us_luckiest_lottery_winner

John
_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100714/c1f39683/attachment.html>

From spike66 at att.net  Thu Jul 15 01:25:20 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 18:25:20 -0700
Subject: [ExI] medical marijuana
Message-ID: <956544859CA543F3858D740A1FAD1F33@spike>

 
--- On Wed, 7/14/10, Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com> wrote:

...
	
	
	On 7/14/2010 3:43 PM, Gregory Jones wrote:
	
	>> Damien Broderick was the first close friend I ever had who was a
genuine
	>> "hippie" type, and I didn't meet him until I was in my late 30s.
	
	>Ha. I was a hippie only in the sense that Dan Quayle was an
astronaut...I once appeared on TV in the late '60s...so I wasn't even a good
fake hippie. Later on I did have Jesus hair down to my waist, almost, and a
hefty foliage on my face...	Damien Broderick

Pal, where I grew up, that would have easily earned you the uncontested
title.  Everywhere you went, you would hear comments such as "Lord Almighty!
Martha!  Get them children indoors!"


...

	
	##sadly, this is apparently a misquote:
	
	Video footage shows Quayle saying:
	    "Thank you very much Bob, Mr. President, Mrs. Bush, Dick Truly
and fellow astronauts, and ladies and gentlemen."

Ja, that and some of the other stuff was apparently exaggerated, or a
put-on.  With the current VP, we can use actual quotes.  It continues to
this day.  I saw a survey where they asked who said "I can see Russia from
my house."  Something over 70% of Americans answered Sarah Palin.*

When I really knew Quayle was a bad choice was at his nomination, when he
tried to do an acceptance speech.  The man looks like he took a triple dose
of beta blockers.  I need to look for a YouTube of that speech.  A deer in
the headlights look is an understatement.

	
	   ...Quayle: "Mars is essentially in the same orbit.. Mars is
somewhat the same distance from the Sun, which is very important...

Sure, if we verrry loosely interpret the modifier "somewhat."

 ...We have seen pictures where there are canals...

That was pure idiocy.

... we believe, and water...

Well, he turned out to be right on that.

...If there is water, that means there is oxygen...

Sounds odd, but technically correct.  Water is mostly oxygen.  Of course the
same argument could be applied to Venus, which has plenty of carbon dioxide,
which is over a third oxygen.

...If oxygen, that means we can breathe."

Well, sure, after we crack the water.

Note I am not defending Dan Quayle.  I thought he was waaay out of his
league, as is our current VP, and Palin.  The scary part is if we quizzed
every POTUS and VPOTUS and their challengers since Jimmy Carter, the level
of scientific ignorance would likely be nearly this high.  Jimmuh was a
nuclear engineer, a smart one I understand (applied mathematics at Georgia
Tech, top 10% at the US Naval Academy), but wasn't particularly successful
in office.  McCain and both of the Bushes were fighter pilots, so one would
think they would need to know something about something.

spike



*Tina Fey, goofing on Sarah Palin.  Palin said you can see Russia from
Alaska, which is true.



From spike66 at att.net  Thu Jul 15 01:49:21 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (Gregory Jones)
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 18:49:21 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] medical marijuana
In-Reply-To: <956544859CA543F3858D740A1FAD1F33@spike>
Message-ID: <549548.34796.qm@web81505.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



--- On Wed, 7/14/10, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
?
...same argument could be applied to Venus, which has plenty of carbon dioxide,
which is over a third oxygen...
?
OK so now I get to extend to myself the same charity I offered to former VP Quayle.? I blew it, but was still technically correct: over two thirds is over a third.? {8^D
?
spike
?

?
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100714/8c0bbb93/attachment.html>

From rebelwithaclue at gmail.com  Thu Jul 15 00:20:15 2010
From: rebelwithaclue at gmail.com (rebelwithaclue at gmail.com)
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 18:20:15 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Infrared vision via vitamins (well, not really)
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimSkOnE1wbIk195Bxm1bjQIqXxcLih0EbTf4WxF@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTimPEm6QCWNOagSvFYi-6XIANfKf1emFHWfqxztb@mail.gmail.com> 
	<AANLkTimSkOnE1wbIk195Bxm1bjQIqXxcLih0EbTf4WxF@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTilHcnWr9My3BYki7hCGxXUke5helz05NgEdXYc_@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Folks,

Here's another one. Here's some research that indicates that chlorin e6 eye
drops improves night vision.

http://www.rsc.org/Publishing/Journals/cb/Volume/2007/7/Chlorophylls_help_eyes.asp

...the scientists gave mice a chlorophyll derivative, chlorin e6, to see if
their red vision was improved. Using a technique called electroretinography,
which measures retinal cell responses to a flash of light, the researchers
found that the treated mice showed almost double the response to red light
when compared to non-treated mice. The group also showed that the
chlorin e6was localised in the retina and conclude that the increased
visual
sensitivity is a result of light absorption by the chlorophyll derivative.

Washington is currently performing similar research in people. It is
possible that taking a chlorophyll derivative supplement could improve night
vision, he said.

Cheers!
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100714/34bd9c78/attachment.html>

From rpicone at gmail.com  Thu Jul 15 03:57:15 2010
From: rpicone at gmail.com (Robert Picone)
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 20:57:15 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Infrared vision via vitamins (well, not really)
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimPEm6QCWNOagSvFYi-6XIANfKf1emFHWfqxztb@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTimPEm6QCWNOagSvFYi-6XIANfKf1emFHWfqxztb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTilc94QospP5-7Jo_f_zLvOq146QDM6NoB5n9EEV@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 1:11 PM, Bryan Bishop <kanzure at gmail.com> wrote:

> Infrared vision with vitamins
> http://www.edkeyes.org/blog/050825.html
>
> """
> Although I've mostly been interested in sensory augmentation by means
> of technology, there was an interesting third-hand report of
> augmentation through diet and biochemistry. The military during WWII
> (there are mentions of both US and British forces) evidently
> experimented with putting people on diets that replaced the normal
> form of vitamin A with a slightly different chemical, in the hopes
> that the red-sensitive photopigment in the retina constructed from it
> would be changed to a chemically similar form, present in other
> animals, with spectral sensitivity extending into the near infrared.
> The idea, of course, was to be able to see signal lights and so forth
> that were invisible to enemy soldiers.
>
> I did some quick checking on this, and though I couldn't find any
> references to military research, there were some examples in the
> regular civilian literature. Yoshikami, Pearlman, and Crescitelli
> (Vision Research 9:633-646 1969) did a similar experiment on rats,
> putting them on a diet which was deficient in vitamin A and
> supplementing it with additions of either vitamin A1 (the normal form)
> or A2 (the altered one). No behavioral studies were done, but they did
> extract the retinas and perform some spectral analysis, with the
> result that there was indeed some alteration of the photopigments,
> specifically the addition of a second form with sensitivity shifted
> redward by about 20nm.
>
> That study cited Millard and McCann (Journal of Applied Physiology
> 1:807-810 1949) which was an experiment on humans, albeit with fairly
> loose controls on diet. They found that behaviorally the group taking
> A2 supplements had slightly improved red sensitivity, but didn't
> provide any detailed spectral response curves.
>
> So it seems to be the case that this effect is real, but small: the
> best you can hope for is a shift of about 20nm, which is not really
> enough to be of military significance or even detectable without
> careful testing. Still, it's an interesting "hack" on human
> biochemistry.
> """
>
> What wavelength spectrum would you want to get up to- near infrared?
> far? There was an article recently about cryptochrome, a protein in
> avian retina for sensing magnetic fields. I can think of a few designs
> for experiments for improving infrared vision, maybe through directed
> evolution of (tethered?) photopigments.
>
>
Technically you already have pretty decent near infrared, just only in your
cones and not your rods, making all reds much harder to see and less vivid
in low-light environments.  Vitamin A only affects rod photopigments, which
IIRC cut off around 650 nm, where infrared is typically considered to start
at 700 nm and most people can see up to 750 nm or so in the right
environments (though those environments aren't exactly typical, thanks
either to some nuance of the multi-stage opponent process our eyes use, or a
simple lack of sufficient pupil dilation objects that reflect light just
beyond 700 nm may look black unless viewed through goggles with IR-pass
filters or under direct near-infrared light in a dark environment.  A lot of
manmade black pigments do this actually.)
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100714/7fce5b04/attachment.html>

From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Thu Jul 15 06:29:05 2010
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 23:29:05 -0700
Subject: [ExI] How could this former math professor find an edge in
	playing the lottery???
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTin6AG80YMYbuceV9K6rTJIpaPi8h5xtWR8ZX5OW@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTiledF3emXSnC-7ugDO84R-FK5vlijozxy4P91gL@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTin6AG80YMYbuceV9K6rTJIpaPi8h5xtWR8ZX5OW@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTilTukg7hvBnBDLLsY8hsZVDXAfdNCdcSIeiVxHI@mail.gmail.com>

Okay, I tend to think of all of them as "lotto tickets."  But I
suppose scratchers are scratchers, and not technically lotto tickets!
lol

John

On 7/14/10, Isabelle Hakala <ismirth at gmail.com> wrote:
> Three of them were scratches from what I read... and apparently she buys
> them enmasse.... scratchers are an ods game. The one time she one fron a
> lottery ticket? Who knows about *that* one... ? :)
>
> On Jul 14, 2010 6:02 PM, "John Grigg" <possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Does anyone here have a theory regarding how this former math
> professor won the lottery FOUR TIMES??  She must have figured
> something out to give herself a very significant edge...  Applied
> mathematics? Psi?  Computer hacking?  Or maybe she's a time traveler
> who likes the simple life?  ; )
>
> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100713/ap_on_re_us/us_luckiest_lottery_winner
>
> John
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>


From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Thu Jul 15 06:47:32 2010
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 23:47:32 -0700
Subject: [ExI] science fiction great James P. Hogan is dead
Message-ID: <AANLkTimBzDntHKqFBi6RJ7MNThSb0AVzqv5HpOVqlHMG@mail.gmail.com>

Science fiction great James P. Hogan died while at his home in Ireland...

http://www.sfsite.com/news/2010/07/12/obituary-james-p-hogan/

http://www.mymotherlode.com/news/local/1096634/SciFi-Author-Passes-Away.html

http://www.examiner.com/x-12171-Lexington-Literature-Examiner~y2010m7d13-SFF-author-James-P-Hogan-found-dead-in-his-home

John   :  (


From jonkc at bellsouth.net  Thu Jul 15 12:25:46 2010
From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John Clark)
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 08:25:46 -0400
Subject: [ExI] [The Truman Show
In-Reply-To: <4C3DF615.6060300@satx.rr.com>
References: <4326323CC4C5482E847A245014158777@spike>	<4C3D5101.8050807@satx.rr.com>
	<0BDF7B4F-35FA-4A88-A7CA-7F1DF28A52AD@bellsouth.net>
	<4C3DF615.6060300@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <7170A26B-97CA-4BAA-9A2B-539CB10DF46B@bellsouth.net>

On Jul 14, 2010, at 1:38 PM, Damien Broderick wrote:

> Based, of course, on Christopher (Inverted World) Priest's more complex and brilliant novel THE PRESTIGE.

I disagree, I think this is a rare case where the movie was better than the book, certainly the ending was better.

   John K Clark

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100715/914f882c/attachment.html>

From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Thu Jul 15 21:30:26 2010
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 14:30:26 -0700
Subject: [ExI] medical marijuana
In-Reply-To: <704183.67527.qm@web81607.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <AA328309EBE94A6F8DFDF8F4B7858139@spike>
	<704183.67527.qm@web81607.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimWC4UJ59NAQ-qC30YLEFIh8G-6yYR9qQj03cfW@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jul 14, 2010 at 12:04 AM, Adrian Tymes <wingcat at pacbell.net> wrote:
> --- On Tue, 7/13/10, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>> Sure isn't.? I would counterpropose that we pay the
>> price another way.? We
>> make most medications over-the-counter accessible, without
>> a doctor's help
>> if the prole chooses to go that route.? With every
>> medication comes
>> literature that carefully explains the known risks, and the
>> caveat that if a
>> prole takes this stuff and does it wrong, she might be
>> injured or seriously
>> killed, buyer beware.
>
> That's been tried in other fields, notably software
> engineering.
>
> A) Most such users do not Read The F(ine) Manual.
>
> B) They sue - and sometimes win - when they get hurt anyway.
> (Thus EULAs, in an attempt to ward off the most blatant of
> these.)
>
> C) In the case of medicine, many products affect one's
> ability to make rational judgments - thus, the product
> makes it more likely that you would overdose yourself, with
> potentially fatal effects.
>

### Users do not have to read the manual - they can call the IT
department, and the smart ones do it before they spend money or monkey
around the BIOS. Same applies to drug users. No need to have a
Department of Safe Software, making sure nobody gets to use programs
except ones verified by indifferent programmers hired on governement
money to check things they don't care about, like the FDA.

Rafal



From bbenzai at yahoo.com  Thu Jul 15 21:51:29 2010
From: bbenzai at yahoo.com (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 14:51:29 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Not very bright (was: Belief in maths)
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1191.1279167868.10820.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <941443.59275.qm@web114406.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com> enquired:

> On 7/14/2010 2:34 PM, Ben Zaiboc wrote:
> 
> > am very familiar with the sheer pain of frustration at
> not understanding something (not helped by not being very
> bright!).
> 
> What makes you say that, Ben? Do you mean "bright but not
> *very* 
> bright"--which probably applies to most of us here--or
> "rather ordinary, 
> not bright" which seems from your posts to be untrue.


Ha, well.  I suppose it would be trite to say "not as bright as I'd like to be", because that's probably true of everyone.

Some kinds of thinking are like juggling. You're just about ok with 3 balls, but then someone chucks 5 at you, and you go "WTF!?", and they fly all over the place.  Maybe it's a short-term memory thing, I don't know, but imagine you know that juggling 5, 7, 19 balls is a REALLY USEFUL skill, but you can barely cope with 3.  Sooo frustrating, and you start to suspect everyone else has 3 arms (Anders once tried to explain complex numbers to me, but only succeeded in making me cross-eyed.  Square root of minus 2?? what the hell does that even mean? I have NO idea, and can't see how anyone does. It might as well be the velocity of pastry).  Just hope you never have to rely on me to work out the breaking strain of your diamondoid skyhook, because I'll give you 5 answers, all of them wrong.

Other kinds of thinking are like swimming in clear water.  You wonder why so many people put on goggles with cardboard lenses before they get in, then complain about crashing into things.

Verily, life is weird and wonderful, baffling and beautiful.

Ben Zaiboc


      




From thespike at satx.rr.com  Thu Jul 15 22:25:42 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 17:25:42 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Not very bright
In-Reply-To: <941443.59275.qm@web114406.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <941443.59275.qm@web114406.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4C3F8AE6.4050105@satx.rr.com>

On 7/15/2010 4:51 PM, Ben Zaiboc wrote:

> Square root of minus 2?? what the hell does that even mean? I have NO idea, and can't see how anyone does.

It's a calculational device, comrade. Like minus 6 pastries. 1.41421356 i.

And you can draw the damned thing easily on a Cartesian graph or plane, 
where one axis is the real numbers and the other is the imaginary 
numbers. Easy as psi. I mean pi.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complex_plane>

Damien Broderick


From spike66 at att.net  Thu Jul 15 22:33:30 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 15:33:30 -0700
Subject: [ExI] medical marijuana
Message-ID: <5D4D1827DC354859B3F1650FA9B7C985@spike>

 
 
> --- On Tue, 7/13/10, spike <spike66 at att.net
<http://us.mc815.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=spike66 at att.net> > wrote:
>> Sure isn't.  I would counterpropose that we pay the
>> price another way.  We
>> make most medications over-the-counter accessible, without
>> a doctor's help
>> if the prole chooses to go that route...
>

### Users do not have to read the manual - they can call the IT
department, and the smart ones do it before they spend money or monkey
around the BIOS. Same applies to drug users. No need to have a
Department of Safe Software, making sure nobody gets to use programs
except ones verified by indifferent programmers hired on governement
money to check things they don't care about, like the FDA...Rafal
 
 
Thanks Rafal.  The opinion of an actual doctor is worth more than others.  I
like your approach.
 
I had a friend who lived along the Kern River, adjacent to an Indian
Reservation (Indian with a feather not a dot).  The tribe had a medicine
man, but he didn't do anything with the traditional remedies, the local
plants or incantations and such.  He had formal training in pharmacology, so
(had he maintained a license) he would be a titled a pharmacist.  He used
all standard drugstore medications as far as I could tell.  He couldn't help
you if you had some oddball condition, but he was really good at helping his
tribe in all the stuff that he saw nearly every day.  His patients tended to
have the classic problems: alcoholism, flab and diabetes, the ones that are
eating up the rest of the US population at an ever greater rate.  
 
Interesting aside: medics are debating genetic based medicine, where they
take into account the genetics of the patient.  I wonder how it would help
if all of the medicine man's patients are closely related?  The Kern River
people were all more or less genetically related, having descended from a
very small core group. 
 
Where the Kern River medicine man was really good was knowing when he could
prescribe something he had in his own shop and when he had to recommend the
patient go on down to see the white man's doctor.
 
spike
 
 

 
 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100715/7f35e57a/attachment.html>

From dgreer_68 at hotmail.com  Thu Jul 15 23:30:53 2010
From: dgreer_68 at hotmail.com (darren shawn greer)
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 19:30:53 -0400
Subject: [ExI] medical marijuana
In-Reply-To: <5D4D1827DC354859B3F1650FA9B7C985@spike>
References: <5D4D1827DC354859B3F1650FA9B7C985@spike>
Message-ID: <COL112-W6351FDE8E15239A820296E9DBB0@phx.gbl>


Sure isn't.  I would counterpropose that we pay the
>> price another way.  We
>> make most medications over-the-counter accessible, without
>> a doctor's help
>> if the prole chooses to go that route.  With every
>> medication comes
>> literature that carefully explains the known risks, and the
>> caveat that if a
>> prole takes this stuff and does it wrong, she might be
>> injured or seriously
>> killed, buyer beware.
 

 
There are places where this is done. In many parts of Asia, including Thailand, you can purchase most anti-biotics over-the-counter from pharmacies without the approval of a doctor. I decided to go ahead and do this in Krabi eight years ago. I switched from Larium to doxocylcine as a prophylaxis against malaria, because I self-diagnosed the former as causing depression. So I simply asked for a new anti-malarial medication and was given by an indifferent pharmacist doxocylcine. My next stop was Delhi, and little did I realize that doxocylcine is completely useless for preventing malaria in India. Most strands of the bug there are resistant to it. Result? I got malaria and nearly died. If I had seen a doctor prior to making the switch, he or she would almost have certainly checked my itinerary before putting me on a new drug.
 
Also, some medications don't treat symptoms but underlying causes. HIV medications are a good example. Reverse transcriptease inhibitors, protease inhibitors, fusion inhibitors all interfere with cellular reproduction of the virus. Sometimes it takes several different kinds at once to effectively reduce viral loads, and you only know if it's working by having regular CD4 and viral load counts. All of these drugs have resistance issues, and it is preferable to know about them before you become symptomatic, which with this disease is always a dangerous proposition. This also requires lab testing. In addition, some herbal medications, such as St. John's Wart, inhibit uptake of anti-virals into the body through the liver. This field changes so rapidly that even specialized doctors who attend conferences constantly find it hard to keep up. General practitioners often don?t even bother to try and refer patients to infectious disease clinics instead. Some diseases are very complex, and require specialized physicians to treat patients. It is often not enough to just take a pill. I see making certain drugs available without a prescription hazardous in terms of the health of the general population. This could create viruses such as HIV with a higher profile of resistance at time of sero-conversion because of wide-spread misuse of medications due to ignorance of the science involved. 



Per Ardua Ad Astra
For more info on author Darren Greer visit 
http://darrenshawngreer.blogspot.com



 



From: spike66 at att.net
To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 15:33:30 -0700
Subject: [ExI] medical marijuana


 
 
> --- On Tue, 7/13/10, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>> Sure isn't.  I would counterpropose that we pay the
>> price another way.  We
>> make most medications over-the-counter accessible, without
>> a doctor's help
>> if the prole chooses to go that route...
>

### Users do not have to read the manual - they can call the IT
department, and the smart ones do it before they spend money or monkey
around the BIOS. Same applies to drug users. No need to have a
Department of Safe Software, making sure nobody gets to use programs
except ones verified by indifferent programmers hired on governement
money to check things they don't care about, like the FDA...Rafal
 
 
Thanks Rafal.  The opinion of an actual doctor is worth more than others.  I like your approach.
 
I had a friend who lived along the Kern River, adjacent to an Indian Reservation (Indian with a feather not a dot).  The tribe had a medicine man, but he didn't do anything with the traditional remedies, the local plants or incantations and such.  He had formal training in pharmacology, so (had he maintained a license) he would be a titled a pharmacist.  He used all standard drugstore medications as far as I could tell.  He couldn't help you if you had some oddball condition, but he was really good at helping his tribe in all the stuff that he saw nearly every day.  His patients tended to have the classic problems: alcoholism, flab and diabetes, the ones that are eating up the rest of the US population at an ever greater rate.  
 
Interesting aside: medics are debating genetic based medicine, where they take into account the genetics of the patient.  I wonder how it would help if all of the medicine man's patients are closely related?  The Kern River people were all more or less genetically related, having descended from a very small core group. 
 
Where the Kern River medicine man was really good was knowing when he could prescribe something he had in his own shop and when he had to recommend the patient go on down to see the white man's doctor.
 
spike
 
 


 
 
 		 	   		  
_________________________________________________________________
MSN Dating: Find someone special. Start now.
http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9734384
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100715/3a1660ec/attachment.html>

From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Fri Jul 16 04:10:25 2010
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 21:10:25 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Iranian woman whipped 99 times and facing a death sentence...
Message-ID: <AANLkTilTVPMN8ieMCrnHb1T5ywIA2zYEIxplVnzUmDB7@mail.gmail.com>

An Iranian woman was tortured into a forced confession, whipped 99
times, and is facing probably execution for an accusation of
adultery...

http://www.care2.com/causes/womens-rights/blog/ashtiani-rescued-from-being-stoned-to-death-for-now/?z00m=19866119

John


From spike66 at att.net  Fri Jul 16 05:49:16 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (Gregory Jones)
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 22:49:16 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Not very bright
In-Reply-To: <4C3F8AE6.4050105@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <170864.62493.qm@web81504.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



--- On Thu, 7/15/10, Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com> wrote:
?
> Square root of minus 2?? what the hell does that even mean? I have NO idea, and can't see how anyone does.

It's a calculational device, comrade. Like minus 6 pastries. 1.41421356 i.

And you can draw the damned thing easily on a Cartesian graph or plane, where one axis is the real numbers and the other is the imaginary numbers. Easy as psi. I mean pi.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complex_plane>

Damien Broderick


Ja!? Imaginary numbers are unfortunately named.? If you work with them enough, they become real to you.? Controls engineers work in the complex plane all the time when doing root locus plots.? You don't want any poles on the right half of that plane, otherwise things go badly quickly.
?
Complex numbers soooo cool, and powerful beasts they are!? So much understanding is available to the prole who masters them.
?
spike
?
?
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100715/badcfddd/attachment.html>

From natasha at natasha.cc  Fri Jul 16 15:52:27 2010
From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More)
Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2010 10:52:27 -0500
Subject: [ExI] New York Times piece on cryonics,
	featuring Robin Hanson & 	Peggy
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinAatCJDJMXx6mBcuyQA25Pzkhi-rGgGlg9Cp14@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1278936002.11479.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org><77022.87917.qm@web114412.mail.gq1.yahoo.com><AANLkTiloGHt5M-R5XJb02ttI-Wtdhpq72YdYF9ISJLEA@mail.gmail.com><4C3B6B3C.5020004@satx.rr.com><20100712192349.5wfgzv7q8go0s0cg@webmail.natasha.cc><AANLkTineX1Ez_qe6ilHwneRC1iu0mWiavR5IuQ4QVQ16@mail.gmail.com><748DF8953757438D8B67C87CD7933BF3@DFC68LF1>
	<AANLkTinAatCJDJMXx6mBcuyQA25Pzkhi-rGgGlg9Cp14@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A1E1993A11294F0F9E25E39DC61A0D89@DFC68LF1>

From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Mike Dougherty
Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2010 11:05 PM
To: ExI chat list
Subject: Re: [ExI] New York Times piece on cryonics,featuring Robin Hanson &
Peggy

On Tue, Jul 13, 2010 at 10:06 AM, Natasha Vita-More <natasha at natasha.cc>
wrote:
> But let me remind you all that the concept of what is or is not dead 
> has changed over the eons.

"So what happens when someone is pronounced dead, cryogenically suspended
then reanimated:  are they undead?  

Yes in a way they are undead when they are "reanimated."

One of my favorite books on the topic of death is _Redefining Death_ by
Karen Grandstrand Gervais.  

Natasha


_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat



From giulio at gmail.com  Fri Jul 16 18:25:15 2010
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2010 20:25:15 +0200
Subject: [ExI] New York Times piece on cryonics,
	featuring Robin Hanson & 	Peggy
In-Reply-To: <20100713021232.GB28070@ofb.net>
References: <201007091640.o69Ge75T023636@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<AANLkTikwbp6tuYqn1EWvi2oThmufvkgLoi4qZg9RHZeD@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikmkHkHGvrfpnM-WNOWzKEVQD1Ux0wO07XKklS5@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikgQHOAXzYjASEHSiQmiGT_LOND2nVEB77zTb6v@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinV2Jygx9iXcv04uhEXzC7KFzmS_4rr5AV9D-YC@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100713021232.GB28070@ofb.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimNLP3TKVV_Igz5w1ab7VvVX55mhnTjyV2TyeDo@mail.gmail.com>

On the contrary it is, unfortunately, almost true in some European
countries. There is a growing trend to make private health care very
difficult to obtain, and there are control freak legislators who wish
to make it illegal.

Which, of course, can only encourage underground health care and
medical tourism at outrageous prices that only the very rich can
afford.

G.

On Tue, Jul 13, 2010 at 4:12 AM, Damien Sullivan
<phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu> wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 12, 2010 at 01:14:05PM -0400, Michael D wrote:
>
>> ? ?Yes that is true, but the problem is that in many, if not most,
>> ? ?implementations of socialized medicine, private health care is just
>> ? ?simply illegal.
>
> This is simply false.



From giulio at gmail.com  Fri Jul 16 18:28:27 2010
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2010 20:28:27 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Reminder: Randal A. Koene on Realistic Routes to Substrate
	Independent Minds, Teleplace, July 17, 10am PST
Message-ID: <AANLkTinhMmSQSdevzkDKKGTKTVbTvvNd6UheCxN-v8Wt@mail.gmail.com>

Reminder: Randal A. Koene will give a talk in Teleplace on July 17,
2010, at 10am PST (1pm EST, 6pm UK, 7pm CET).
http://telexlr8.wordpress.com/2010/07/04/randal-a-koene-on-realistic-routes-to-substrate-independent-minds-teleplace-july-17-10am-pst/
http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=136364963049075
Those who already have Teleplace accounts for teleXLR8 can just ahow
up at the talk. There are a limited number of seats available for
others, please contact me if you wish to attend.

On Sun, Jul 4, 2010 at 12:32 PM, Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:
> Randal A. Koene will give a talk in Teleplace on July 17, 2010, at
> 10am PST (1pm EST, 6pm UK, 7pm CET).
> http://telexlr8.wordpress.com/2010/07/04/randal-a-koene-on-realistic-routes-to-substrate-independent-minds-teleplace-july-17-10am-pst/
> http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=136364963049075
>
> Realistic Routes to Substrate Independent Minds
> Randal A. Koene ? carboncopies.org
>
> Take as a given that the Church-Turing thesis applies to human
> thinking, that our minds are complex machines, but machines
> nonetheless. Let us also assume that we already understand many of the
> scientific, societal and even evolutionary pressures ? as described in
> several of my previous talks ? that underscore the need to augment our
> minds with the capabilities of machine intelligence and the
> adaptability to operate in computational substrates other than those
> of the cerebral neurophysiology. What do we know about the possible
> target substrates and the procedures that may achieve a transition to
> such substrates? Which are the primary remaining scientific
> challenges, and which are the engineering hurdles to be overcome? At
> carboncopies.org, we are taking steps to identify and formulate
> rational approaches to these problems. For example, on one end of the
> spectrum we investigate feasible and careful ways to accomplish
> subject-specific data acquisition and whole brain emulation, while on
> the other we lend support to proposals for commercially viable
> developments in cognitive augmentation. We actively encourage peer
> review through publications and events such as the workshop on
> Advancing Substrate Independent Minds (ASIM-2010) in San Francisco,
> August 16-17, 2010.
>
> Those who already have Teleplace accounts for teleXLR8 can just ahow
> up at the talk. There are a limited number of seats available for
> others, please contact me if you wish to attend.
>



From natasha at natasha.cc  Fri Jul 16 19:26:27 2010
From: natasha at natasha.cc (natasha at natasha.cc)
Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2010 15:26:27 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Reminder: Randal A. Koene on Realistic Routes
	to	Substrate Independent Minds, Teleplace, July 17, 10am PST
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinhMmSQSdevzkDKKGTKTVbTvvNd6UheCxN-v8Wt@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTinhMmSQSdevzkDKKGTKTVbTvvNd6UheCxN-v8Wt@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20100716152627.gse40w5b4kgw8cc8@webmail.natasha.cc>

I'll be there.

You have created a cool environment for event Giulio. Thank you!

Natasha


Quoting Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com>:

> Reminder: Randal A. Koene will give a talk in Teleplace on July 17,
> 2010, at 10am PST (1pm EST, 6pm UK, 7pm CET).
> http://telexlr8.wordpress.com/2010/07/04/randal-a-koene-on-realistic-routes-to-substrate-independent-minds-teleplace-july-17-10am-pst/
> http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=136364963049075
> Those who already have Teleplace accounts for teleXLR8 can just ahow
> up at the talk. There are a limited number of seats available for
> others, please contact me if you wish to attend.
>
> On Sun, Jul 4, 2010 at 12:32 PM, Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Randal A. Koene will give a talk in Teleplace on July 17, 2010, at
>> 10am PST (1pm EST, 6pm UK, 7pm CET).
>> http://telexlr8.wordpress.com/2010/07/04/randal-a-koene-on-realistic-routes-to-substrate-independent-minds-teleplace-july-17-10am-pst/
>> http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=136364963049075
>>
>> Realistic Routes to Substrate Independent Minds
>> Randal A. Koene - carboncopies.org
>>
>> Take as a given that the Church-Turing thesis applies to human
>> thinking, that our minds are complex machines, but machines
>> nonetheless. Let us also assume that we already understand many of the
>> scientific, societal and even evolutionary pressures - as described in
>> several of my previous talks - that underscore the need to augment our
>> minds with the capabilities of machine intelligence and the
>> adaptability to operate in computational substrates other than those
>> of the cerebral neurophysiology. What do we know about the possible
>> target substrates and the procedures that may achieve a transition to
>> such substrates? Which are the primary remaining scientific
>> challenges, and which are the engineering hurdles to be overcome? At
>> carboncopies.org, we are taking steps to identify and formulate
>> rational approaches to these problems. For example, on one end of the
>> spectrum we investigate feasible and careful ways to accomplish
>> subject-specific data acquisition and whole brain emulation, while on
>> the other we lend support to proposals for commercially viable
>> developments in cognitive augmentation. We actively encourage peer
>> review through publications and events such as the workshop on
>> Advancing Substrate Independent Minds (ASIM-2010) in San Francisco,
>> August 16-17, 2010.
>>
>> Those who already have Teleplace accounts for teleXLR8 can just ahow
>> up at the talk. There are a limited number of seats available for
>> others, please contact me if you wish to attend.
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>






From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Sat Jul 17 12:09:44 2010
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2010 14:09:44 +0200
Subject: [ExI] mind body dualism.
In-Reply-To: <F496228C-35B4-4BE7-BDC3-41725229CAF1@bellsouth.net>
References: <732467.6723.qm@web36502.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<AANLkTimgs4rYqFFOie84GjH7zTjdGPtl1n5F-62dERfr@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C32239F.5000408@satx.rr.com>
	<B7D916C5-FB92-4425-929D-7FFDF325198A@bellsouth.net>
	<AANLkTilQWz_qF3fW0x10HNasP1Obcb9bKFrTRgLOqkdU@mail.gmail.com>
	<F496228C-35B4-4BE7-BDC3-41725229CAF1@bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikW6iTAl8TL8M8jsyFCF44CgLKLl_BJwuAXboDS@mail.gmail.com>

2010/7/11 John Clark <jonkc at bellsouth.net>

> On Jul 11, 2010, at 5:16 AM, Stefano Vaj wrote:
> Let us take again teleport. Imagine a teleline employee telling you. "Sir,
> I am pleased to inform
>
> you that your details have been correctly received by our Vancouver station
> and you are in the process of being reconstituted right now.
>
>
> My question would be: When you say "your details have been correctly
> received" does that include the details about what you're saying to me right
> now?
>
> Now, let us proceed to the destruction phase of the process".
> I would be the first to scream and run.
>
>
> I'd be running and screaming before you if the answer was "no". It's just a
> little quirk of mine, I don't like having a last thought and I dislike
> knowing this is my last thought even more.
>

The real ground behind such impulse is that "survival istinct" is a
Darwinian artifact. We can assume that as little as our genes may know about
such processes, their whisper would incline towards the behaviour that in
ordinary circumstances would leave more copies thereof around. Accordingly,
"destruction" in the framework of teleport would not make any difference to
them, and thus to you subjectively, post-teleport destruction would be
perceived as a pointless waste of chances.

I wouldn't care in the slightest but for some reason most on this list
> would, but only if you told them it was happening because otherwise they
> would have no way of knowing it had even occurred. In fact just telling them
> would not be enough because nobody would believe it, you'd have to provide
> ironclad proof and then they'd get upset thinking they were dead or some
> such nonsense.
>

Absolutely, this is what I mean by saying that there is no practical
difference from moving your body from point A to B through a number of
intermediate position or to have an identical enough body reconstituded in
point B. OTOH, there are no real philosophical reasons to adhere to the
metaphor of "movement" rather than that of "destruction" (which generates
istinctive refusal). The reasons would be simply practical, that is, those
sharing such view would simply go culturally extinct in a rather short time.

-- 
Stefano Vaj
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100717/5b08f674/attachment.html>

From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Sat Jul 17 12:24:46 2010
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2010 14:24:46 +0200
Subject: [ExI] SBSP was Ed Kelly and Transmeta
In-Reply-To: <4C3B68CF.7070903@mac.com>
References: <AANLkTinIuEDI0XmVzUNtju9sReRQ0YzTflJQEwgrmW_T@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimOrLoGLU6Cld3AsxcoXYboNGLhWRDokf8enmYn@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C3B68CF.7070903@mac.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinXNqg951-y7j63Qm_mPJ0bzY8IpWnlkK4Qwh0L@mail.gmail.com>

2010/7/12 samantha <sjatkins at mac.com>
> Stefano Vaj wrote:
> This is why transhumanism is crucial. A cultural revolution was
> necessary to shift the paradigm from hunting-and-gathering to
> something else, another one is required now to bring things to the
> next level.
>
> Please say more about what that next level is beyond what has been done today.? That is the next step.? I do not see that we are generally all that clear on that but instead have a a bunch of rather disparate notions.

Let us say that change comes more from paradigm shifts more than from
gradual evolution and refinement of what exists. Changing the world in
turn requires first changing the dominant worldview.

The illusion of Kurzweilesque views of progress, singularity, etc. is
that there are self-sustaining processes at work, similar to the
Marxist evolution of means of production, which would guarantee
incremental achievements similar to that we have attained in the past.

I suspect instead that such achievements were the (intermittent)
products of very special circumstances and of titanic efforts
commanded by, and in turn producing, cultural revolutions, in a
general framework of "punctuated equilibria".

--
Stefano Vaj



From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Sat Jul 17 12:29:26 2010
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2010 14:29:26 +0200
Subject: [ExI] medical marijuana
In-Reply-To: <619642.12227.qm@web81504.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <AANLkTimP6SC4V0yy_O0mGnaL2Js7LZTpwBnB-7jji96N@mail.gmail.com>
	<619642.12227.qm@web81504.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimso0yDdeAO1cBngI1KUV4N0JLwyQOcHM8eyQwG@mail.gmail.com>

2010/7/12 Gregory Jones <spike66 at att.net>
> Ja agreed, but smoking?a plant may be the cheapest way to administer any drug.

Really? What about ingestion?

Chewing tobacco would seem to me simpler and cheaper than smoking it.

Not to mention all one has to do before getting smokable freebase cocaine.

--
Stefano Vaj



From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Sat Jul 17 12:39:37 2010
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2010 14:39:37 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Belief in maths (was mind body dualism)
In-Reply-To: <832489.74928.qm@web114413.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.1131.1278963276.10820.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<832489.74928.qm@web114413.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTin_l468Cy5KWhKiqXJtnGal5djcjxV23JRp-rSf@mail.gmail.com>

On 13 July 2010 13:21, Ben Zaiboc <bbenzai at yahoo.com> wrote:
> samantha <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:
> We need to think how to communicate the excitement, the happiness, etc. as well as how to make logical arguments.

Much of it has to do with dominant societal values and mentalities in
a given place and age.

Monotheist beliefs were not very fashionable or plausible in 50 AD
Europe, and are not in Japan or India today.

As for Europe this has already changed once, and is changing again
(even though religious humanism tends to radicalise for obvious
compensation reasons).

Face to a fundamentalist, the most one can do is to argue that if he
is entitled to faith in the existence of God, others are equally
entitled to have a symmetrical "faith" that He does not exist, or at
least that he should definitely not for our existence to have meaning.
Nietzsche was very clear-sighted in this respect, and had a more
realistic approach than, say, Bertrand Russell.

-- 
Stefano Vaj


From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Sat Jul 17 12:44:57 2010
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2010 14:44:57 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Psi experiment
Message-ID: <AANLkTikyw8S5bSHlJGwv0Or01QeOZNjsRfSu4iF_s2av@mail.gmail.com>

Long exchanges have taken place on games, and I wonder if some very
easy experiment has ever (or should) be organised such as the
following:

Take a black-white, odd-even game with results randomised as well as possible.

Take a first group betting money while trying to guess the outcome,
and a second group betting money but without the ability to pick their
bet.

Is the first performing better than the second in average on large
numbers of bets?

Motivation should be kept up by monetary rewards, something which does
not happen in ordinary large-scale psi experiments, and possible
statistical deviations should become sooner or later measurable if a
difference exists.


-- 
Stefano Vaj


From max at maxmore.com  Sat Jul 17 18:02:29 2010
From: max at maxmore.com (Max More)
Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2010 13:02:29 -0500
Subject: [ExI] The moon is not such a harsh mistress
Message-ID: <201007171829.o6HITHkh026312@andromeda.ziaspace.com>


http://cosmiclog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2010/07/16/4692369-living-on-the-moon-its-the-pits



From spike66 at att.net  Sat Jul 17 21:01:05 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (Gregory Jones)
Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2010 14:01:05 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] atheists de-baptize unbelievers:
In-Reply-To: <201007171829.o6HITHkh026312@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <809693.83441.qm@web81508.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Why didn't we think of this?
?
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/07/17/atheists-reportedly-using-hair-dryers-baptize/?test=latestnews
?
American atheists lined up to be "de-baptized" in a ritual using a hair dryer, according to a report Friday on U.S. late-night news program "Nightline."
?
Leading atheist Edwin Kagin blasted his fellow non-believers with the hair dryer to symbolically dry up the holy water sprinkled on their heads in days past. The styling tool was emblazoned with a label reading "Reason and Truth."
?
Kagin believes parents are wrong to baptize their children before they are able to make their own choices, even slamming some religious eduction as "child abuse." He said the blast of hot air was a way for adults to undo what their parents had done.
?
"I was baptized Catholic. I don't remember any of it at all," said 24-year-old Cambridge Boxterman. "According to my mother, I screamed like a banshee ... so you can see that even as a young child I didn't want to be baptized. It's not fair. I was born atheist, and they were forcing me to become Catholic."
?
Kagin doned a monk's robe and said a few mock-Latin phrases before inviting those wishing to be de-baptized to "come forward now and receive the spirit of hot air that taketh away the stigma and taketh away the remnants of the stain of baptismal water."
?
Ironically, Kagin's own son became a fundamentalist Christian minister after having "a personal revelation in Jesus Christ."
?
"One wonders where they went wrong," he chuckled to the TV show.

?
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100717/b39a9735/attachment.html>

From thespike at satx.rr.com  Sat Jul 17 21:47:08 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2010 16:47:08 -0500
Subject: [ExI] atheists de-baptize unbelievers:
In-Reply-To: <809693.83441.qm@web81508.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <809693.83441.qm@web81508.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4C4224DC.3080203@satx.rr.com>

On 7/17/2010 4:01 PM, Gregory Jones wrote:

> Why didn't we think of this?
> http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/07/17/atheists-reportedly-using-hair-dryers-baptize/?test=latestnews
> American atheists lined up to be "de-baptized" in a ritual using a hair dryer, according
> to a report Friday on U.S. late-night news program "Nightline."

You could go further and start a huge campaign to unbaptize, from a safe 
distance, all those Mormons who go about retroactively "baptizing" dead 
Jews and other defunct humans...

Damien Broderick



From max at maxmore.com  Sat Jul 17 22:07:17 2010
From: max at maxmore.com (Max More)
Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2010 17:07:17 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Peak wood? Overcoming energy crises
Message-ID: <201007172207.o6HM7PbR029366@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

I remember learning in economic history class about the "peak wood" 
crisis (as it would now probably be termed) of centuries ago. The 
lessons from that are part of this article -- an enjoyable retort to 
those panicking about future energy supplies:

Energy crisis? We've been here before
Around 400 years ago, Britain faced another problem of dwindling 
energy resources: 'peak wood'.
Colin McInnes
http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php/debates/copenhagen_article/9202



From spike66 at att.net  Sat Jul 17 22:11:07 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (Gregory Jones)
Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2010 15:11:07 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] atheists de-baptize unbelievers:
In-Reply-To: <4C4224DC.3080203@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <933840.94218.qm@web81508.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



--- On Sat, 7/17/10, Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com> wrote:
?
>...You could go further and start a huge campaign to unbaptize, from a safe distance, all those Mormons who go about retroactively "baptizing" dead Jews and other defunct humans...Damien Broderick
?
?
Ja!? Of all the acts any group could do, that business about baptizing dead people possibly against their former will is as presumptuous as it gets.? I do know of people who just never really found any genuine happiness in this life, and longed for it all to end.??It is an egregious?notion of bringing these to some kind of immortal existence to extend their suffering indefinitely.
?
spike
?
?
?
?
?
?

?
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100717/99be8a59/attachment.html>

From max at maxmore.com  Sat Jul 17 22:20:27 2010
From: max at maxmore.com (Max More)
Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2010 17:20:27 -0500
Subject: [ExI] atheists de-baptize unbelievers:
Message-ID: <201007172220.o6HMKY7a002861@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

According to Mormon doctrine, those who are retroactively baptized 
still have to accept the baptism. They are free to reject it. That 
makes it better than baptizing those too young to choose for 
themselves. (On the assumption, of course, that the dead are still 
around somewhere. If they are not, then it hardly makes sense to 
complain about Mormons baptizing them. The only ones who might have a 
good reason to object are those, if any, who have been suspended.)

Max


>  You could go further and start a huge campaign to unbaptize, from a safe
>distance, all those Mormons who go about retroactively "baptizing" dead
>Jews and other defunct humans...
>
>Damien Broderick




From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Sun Jul 18 00:46:20 2010
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2010 17:46:20 -0700
Subject: [ExI] atheists de-baptize unbelievers:
In-Reply-To: <201007172220.o6HMKY7a002861@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <201007172220.o6HMKY7a002861@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinQVytaEJmvcYiUCBLXtvfsuzQu0vv84ADOtChO@mail.gmail.com>

You knew this was coming...  : )

Damien wrote:
You could go further and start a huge campaign to unbaptize, from a safe
distance, all those Mormons who go about retroactively "baptizing" dead
Jews and other defunct humans...
>>>

Spike replied:
Ja!  Of all the acts any group could do, that business about baptizing
dead people possibly against their former will is as presumptuous as
it gets.  I do know of people who just never really found any genuine
happiness in this life, and longed for it all to end.  It is an
egregious notion of bringing these to some kind of immortal existence
to extend their suffering indefinitely.
>>>

Mormons mean well (extremely well...) when they do their proxy
baptisms and other ordinances for the dead and I am not too concerned
about it being "*possibly* against the former will of the person" it
is done to benefit. lol

Spike, if Mormonism is actually true, then the suffering people you
describe will most likely be vastly happier in the spirit world (a
realm sort of like purgatory, where people await the resurrection &
assignment to various kingdoms/grades in the Heavens).  It is
described as a place where physical ailments are no more (as well as
financial problems, etc.,) and life is practically a paradise as
compared to here.  But bad attitudes/psyches that exist due to bad
life choices here, will still continue to exist there.  And that is
why a huge missionary program is going on *over there* to bring people
into God's fold.  Yes, Mormon missionaries will be knocking on your
door in the next life!!  Life will not end, and neither will that!
hee!  ; )

The Mormon proxy baptisms are not meant as a means of granting anyone
immortality.  It instead gives membership into God's church and
kingdom, should the person on the other side *choose* to accept it.

John


On 7/17/10, Max More <max at maxmore.com> wrote:
> According to Mormon doctrine, those who are retroactively baptized
> still have to accept the baptism. They are free to reject it. That
> makes it better than baptizing those too young to choose for
> themselves. (On the assumption, of course, that the dead are still
> around somewhere. If they are not, then it hardly makes sense to
> complain about Mormons baptizing them. The only ones who might have a
> good reason to object are those, if any, who have been suspended.)
>
> Max
>
>
>>  You could go further and start a huge campaign to unbaptize, from a safe
>>distance, all those Mormons who go about retroactively "baptizing" dead
>>Jews and other defunct humans...
>>
>>Damien Broderick
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>


From thespike at satx.rr.com  Sun Jul 18 01:29:15 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2010 20:29:15 -0500
Subject: [ExI] atheists de-baptize unbelievers:
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinQVytaEJmvcYiUCBLXtvfsuzQu0vv84ADOtChO@mail.gmail.com>
References: <201007172220.o6HMKY7a002861@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<AANLkTinQVytaEJmvcYiUCBLXtvfsuzQu0vv84ADOtChO@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4C4258EB.9080107@satx.rr.com>

On 7/17/2010 7:46 PM, John Grigg wrote:

> The Mormon proxy baptisms are not meant as a means of granting anyone
> immortality.  It instead gives membership into God's church and
> kingdom, should the person on the other side*choose*  to accept it.

Proxy de-baptizing is not meant as a means of denying anyone anything 
real, including immortality once science perfects it. It instead helps 
detach the virtuous from mind-warping foolishness and exploitation, 
should the person *choose* to accept it.

Damien Broderick


From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Sun Jul 18 02:04:19 2010
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2010 19:04:19 -0700
Subject: [ExI] atheists de-baptize unbelievers:
In-Reply-To: <4C4258EB.9080107@satx.rr.com>
References: <201007172220.o6HMKY7a002861@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<AANLkTinQVytaEJmvcYiUCBLXtvfsuzQu0vv84ADOtChO@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C4258EB.9080107@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinh3oNzBI-7KM3tGOGywoE4h61aNoZTu9CXYg02@mail.gmail.com>

Damien wrote:
Proxy de-baptizing is not meant as a means of denying anyone anything
real, including immortality once science perfects it. It instead helps
detach the virtuous from mind-warping foolishness and exploitation,
should the person *choose* to accept it.
>>

Okay, Damien, you made your point as a card-carrying atheist who
chases me around with a sharpened Occam's razor! lol  But the virtous
can come in many forms and from a multitude of groups.

Hey, I'm about to leave for a dance party (I don't get out much)!  I'm
wondering about the ratio of virtous vrs. un-virtuous women who will
be there...

John  : )


On 7/17/10, Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com> wrote:
> On 7/17/2010 7:46 PM, John Grigg wrote:
>
>> The Mormon proxy baptisms are not meant as a means of granting anyone
>> immortality.  It instead gives membership into God's church and
>> kingdom, should the person on the other side*choose*  to accept it.
>
> Proxy de-baptizing is not meant as a means of denying anyone anything
> real, including immortality once science perfects it. It instead helps
> detach the virtuous from mind-warping foolishness and exploitation,
> should the person *choose* to accept it.
>
> Damien Broderick
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>


From seculartranshumanist at gmail.com  Sun Jul 18 03:52:06 2010
From: seculartranshumanist at gmail.com (Joseph Bloch)
Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2010 23:52:06 -0400
Subject: [ExI] atheists de-baptize unbelievers:
In-Reply-To: <809693.83441.qm@web81508.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <201007171829.o6HITHkh026312@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<809693.83441.qm@web81508.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTile8bPrMoXewlpGJaUTv2b0cxuPMgYMxJHdKXvx@mail.gmail.com>

 It's a clever enough symbolic act, but ultimately it has no real meaning
(any more than baptism itself does).

Now, find a retrovirus that deactivates the "belief in God is a beneficial
trait" gene (if there is such a thing), and you might have something...

Joseph

Gregory Jones wrote:

  Why didn't we think of this?

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/07/17/atheists-reportedly-using-hair-dryers-baptize/?test=latestnews

American atheists<mailbox:///C%7C/Users/Joseph/AppData/Roaming/Thunderbird/Profiles/9ord16pv.default/Mail/mail.josephbloch-1.com/Inbox.sbd/Bills.sbd/Websites?number=7425830&part=1.3&type=application/x-message-display&filename=Re%3A%20%5BExI%5D%20atheists%20de-baptize%20unbelievers%3A.eml#>lined
up to be "de-baptized" in a ritual using a hair dryer, according to a
report Friday on U.S. late-night news program "Nightline."



Leading atheist Edwin Kagin blasted his fellow non-believers with the hair
dryer to symbolically dry up the holy water sprinkled on their heads in days
past. The styling tool was emblazoned with a label reading "Reason and
Truth."



Kagin believes parents are wrong to baptize their
children<mailbox:///C%7C/Users/Joseph/AppData/Roaming/Thunderbird/Profiles/9ord16pv.default/Mail/mail.josephbloch-1.com/Inbox.sbd/Bills.sbd/Websites?number=7425830&part=1.3&type=application/x-message-display&filename=Re%3A%20%5BExI%5D%20atheists%20de-baptize%20unbelievers%3A.eml#>before
they are able to make their own choices, even slamming some religious
eduction as "child abuse." He said the blast of hot air was a way for adults
to undo what their parents had done.



"I was baptized Catholic. I don't remember any of it at all," said
24-year-old Cambridge Boxterman. "According to my mother, I screamed like a
banshee ... so you can see that even as a young child I didn't want to be
baptized. It's not fair. I was born atheist, and they were forcing me to
become Catholic."



Kagin doned a monk's robe and said a few mock-Latin phrases before inviting
those wishing to be de-baptized to "come forward now and receive the spirit
of hot air that taketh away the stigma and taketh away the remnants of the
stain of baptismal water."



Ironically, Kagin's own
son<mailbox:///C%7C/Users/Joseph/AppData/Roaming/Thunderbird/Profiles/9ord16pv.default/Mail/mail.josephbloch-1.com/Inbox.sbd/Bills.sbd/Websites?number=7425830&part=1.3&type=application/x-message-display&filename=Re%3A%20%5BExI%5D%20atheists%20de-baptize%20unbelievers%3A.eml#>became
a fundamentalist Christian minister after having "a personal
revelation in Jesus Christ."



"One wonders where they went wrong," he chuckled to the TV show.



------------------------------

_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100717/1973fde7/attachment.html>

From steinberg.will at gmail.com  Sun Jul 18 02:59:02 2010
From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg)
Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2010 22:59:02 -0400
Subject: [ExI] atheists de-baptize unbelievers:
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinh3oNzBI-7KM3tGOGywoE4h61aNoZTu9CXYg02@mail.gmail.com>
References: <201007172220.o6HMKY7a002861@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<AANLkTinQVytaEJmvcYiUCBLXtvfsuzQu0vv84ADOtChO@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C4258EB.9080107@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTinh3oNzBI-7KM3tGOGywoE4h61aNoZTu9CXYg02@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTil-0pKUHH5ZoU9zmi6GZEX4fD3cY-GJQhMJJGwQ@mail.gmail.com>

Pretentious atheism ruins atheism.  A smart, sensible atheist ignores
baptism, because it has zero meaning outside of its believers.  Kagin seems
like he actually believes that children are wrongfully made to *become
Christian* when that drop of water touches their heads, and that he has to
undo the horror.  Wouldn't it be more productive to just...ignore the whole
thing?

I know smart people love to make belittling jokes, but sometimes too much
masturbating of the ego actually validates the other side.  Every "A for
Atheist" shirt only pounds home the idea of Faith, Symbol, Faith!

I fear for atheism when its harbingers are empathy-less prats...
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100717/15d5d7dd/attachment.html>

From thespike at satx.rr.com  Sun Jul 18 04:56:26 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2010 23:56:26 -0500
Subject: [ExI] atheists de-baptize unbelievers:
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTile8bPrMoXewlpGJaUTv2b0cxuPMgYMxJHdKXvx@mail.gmail.com>
References: <201007171829.o6HITHkh026312@andromeda.ziaspace.com>	<809693.83441.qm@web81508.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<AANLkTile8bPrMoXewlpGJaUTv2b0cxuPMgYMxJHdKXvx@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4C42897A.4050606@satx.rr.com>

On 7/17/2010 10:52 PM, Joseph Bloch wrote:

> It's a clever enough symbolic act, but ultimately it has no real meaning
> (any more than baptism itself does).

Actually it will be seen as a nasty, hostile act; the symbolism will 
look vicious and spiteful to the People of Faith, however fleetingly 
entertaining to the People of Reason. Even more so my previous jab at 
Mormon proxy baptism--but if anyone wants to make fun of $cientologists, 
they should certainly go for it. Some scams are worse than others.

Damien Broderick


From giulio at gmail.com  Sun Jul 18 09:22:35 2010
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2010 11:22:35 +0200
Subject: [ExI] atheists de-baptize unbelievers:
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTil-0pKUHH5ZoU9zmi6GZEX4fD3cY-GJQhMJJGwQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <201007172220.o6HMKY7a002861@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<AANLkTinQVytaEJmvcYiUCBLXtvfsuzQu0vv84ADOtChO@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C4258EB.9080107@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTinh3oNzBI-7KM3tGOGywoE4h61aNoZTu9CXYg02@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTil-0pKUHH5ZoU9zmi6GZEX4fD3cY-GJQhMJJGwQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTilh4S3AVxmn1KGumnUk0L87-Qmix-R7HpF4IosJ@mail.gmail.com>

Agree with Will.

Everyone should be free to waste their time and energy as they please,
provided they don't harm others. Myself, I would join a sport fan club
rather than New Atheist fundamentalists.

--
Giulio Prisco
giulio at gmail.com
(39)3387219799

On Jul 18, 2010 6:54 AM, "Will Steinberg" <steinberg.will at gmail.com> wrote:

Pretentious atheism ruins atheism.  A smart, sensible atheist ignores
baptism, because it has zero meaning outside of its believers.  Kagin seems
like he actually believes that children are wrongfully made to *become
Christian* when that drop of water touches their heads, and that he has to
undo the horror.  Wouldn't it be more productive to just...ignore the whole
thing?

I know smart people love to make belittling jokes, but sometimes too much
masturbating of the ego actually validates the other side.  Every "A for
Atheist" shirt only pounds home the idea of Faith, Symbol, Faith!

I fear for atheism when its harbingers are empathy-less prats...

_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100718/51c5e962/attachment.html>

From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Sun Jul 18 10:10:53 2010
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2010 03:10:53 -0700
Subject: [ExI] atheists de-baptize unbelievers:
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTilh4S3AVxmn1KGumnUk0L87-Qmix-R7HpF4IosJ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <201007172220.o6HMKY7a002861@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<AANLkTinQVytaEJmvcYiUCBLXtvfsuzQu0vv84ADOtChO@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C4258EB.9080107@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTinh3oNzBI-7KM3tGOGywoE4h61aNoZTu9CXYg02@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTil-0pKUHH5ZoU9zmi6GZEX4fD3cY-GJQhMJJGwQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTilh4S3AVxmn1KGumnUk0L87-Qmix-R7HpF4IosJ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTik-7y9OMWu0fRclqhsAgQGykS7hjCneYXXiZgp7@mail.gmail.com>

Will Steinberg wrote:
Pretentious atheism ruins atheism.  A smart, sensible atheist ignores
baptism, because it has zero meaning outside of its believers.  Kagin
seems like he actually believes that children are wrongfully made to
become Christian when that drop of water touches their heads, and that
he has to undo the horror.  Wouldn't it be more productive to
just...ignore the whole thing?

I know smart people love to make belittling jokes, but sometimes too
much masturbating of the ego actually validates the other side.  Every
"A for Atheist" shirt only pounds home the idea of Faith, Symbol,
Faith!
>>>

Will, very poignantly said.  I'm a believer who has friends on both
sides of the chasm.  But on Facebook I have many atheist "friends
(friends of friends)" who talk about nothing but their loathing of
Christianity & apparently all religion in general.  It is like these
people have "no lives" and quite simply don't talk about other things
(like family, work, school, popular culture) , except their
anti-religion obsession.  And the degree of arrogance, outright
crudeness, and countless straw man arguments just astounds me!  I used
to think hardcore Evangelical Christian fundamentalists took the cake
on this stuff, but I now give the nod to their obnoxious opposition.

John


On 7/18/10, Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:
> Agree with Will.
>
> Everyone should be free to waste their time and energy as they please,
> provided they don't harm others. Myself, I would join a sport fan club
> rather than New Atheist fundamentalists.
>
> --
> Giulio Prisco
> giulio at gmail.com
> (39)3387219799
>
> On Jul 18, 2010 6:54 AM, "Will Steinberg" <steinberg.will at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Pretentious atheism ruins atheism.  A smart, sensible atheist ignores
> baptism, because it has zero meaning outside of its believers.  Kagin seems
> like he actually believes that children are wrongfully made to *become
> Christian* when that drop of water touches their heads, and that he has to
> undo the horror.  Wouldn't it be more productive to just...ignore the whole
> thing?
>
> I know smart people love to make belittling jokes, but sometimes too much
> masturbating of the ego actually validates the other side.  Every "A for
> Atheist" shirt only pounds home the idea of Faith, Symbol, Faith!
>
> I fear for atheism when its harbingers are empathy-less prats...
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>


From bbenzai at yahoo.com  Sun Jul 18 14:24:33 2010
From: bbenzai at yahoo.com (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2010 07:24:33 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Belief in maths (was mind body dualism)
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1279454403.27742.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <649785.69645.qm@web114406.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

Stefano Vaj <stefano.vaj at gmail.com> declared:
 
> Face to a fundamentalist, the most one can do is to argue
> that if he
> is entitled to faith in the existence of God, others are
> equally
> entitled to have a symmetrical "faith" that He does not
> exist, or at
> least that he should definitely not for our existence to
> have meaning.

I think this is pandering to the myth that atheism is just another religion.  Atheists /don't/ 'believe there are no gods'. They just don't believe there are any gods.  This is an essential distinction, and depressingly, it seems that it needs to be repeated ad nauseam.  The central point is belief vs. non-belief, rather than belief x vs. belief y.

I often wonder whether most of the people who repeat this misrepresentation actually don't understand the difference between these two ideas, or whether they are deliberately conflating them.

Ben Zaiboc




      




From bbenzai at yahoo.com  Sun Jul 18 15:13:05 2010
From: bbenzai at yahoo.com (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2010 08:13:05 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] atheists de-baptize unbelievers
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1279454403.27742.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <454937.57187.qm@web114411.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

> Will Steinberg wrote:
> Pretentious atheism ruins atheism.? A smart, sensible
> atheist ignores
> baptism, because it has zero meaning outside of its
> believers.? 
...? 
> Wouldn't it be more
> productive to
> just...ignore the whole thing?
> 
> Every
> "A for Atheist" shirt only pounds home the idea of Faith,
> Symbol, Faith!
> 

John Grigg <possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com> wrote:
> I used
> to think hardcore Evangelical Christian fundamentalists
> took the cake
> on this stuff, but I now give the nod to their obnoxious
> opposition.

> 
> On 7/18/10, Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > Agree with Will.


You all seem to be concentrating on the effect this ritual has on religious people, but one of the reasons many atheists are drawn to it is because of the psychological effect it has on *them*.  

Yes, it's silly and objectively meaningless, and yes, they could just say to themselves "ok, I'm going to just ignore the fact that I was baptised".  Many of them, however, feel that it marks a formal shaking off of the shackles of belief, and feel a lot better for it. I don't think we should belittle them for that.

Think of it this way: One of the things that religion offers that's usually missing from atheism is the sense of community and shared activities.  I've often heard people say they like the social aspect of religion even if they don't really believe any of the superstious silliness.  If the existence of some funny rituals (that they take far less seriously than religious people usually take theirs) helps people to feel they belong to a community, and maybe be more comfortable with saying "I'm an atheist", then I'm all for them.  If you just don't like the idea of having your baptism being blow-dried away, make your own little ritual up, if you like (and post it on YouTube!).  After all, the most ancient and revered rituals of any religion were just made up at some point, as well.

Personally, I think the idea of de-baptism is great.  It can give you a feeling of washing away the bullshit, solidarity with other non-believers, and it sends a message that "Look, there are actually a lot of these pesky atheists, they're just normal folk, don't eat babies (most of them, anyway) and they have a sense of humour.  And they're finally willing to stand up and be counted".

Ben Zaiboc



      




From giulio at gmail.com  Sun Jul 18 16:28:28 2010
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2010 18:28:28 +0200
Subject: [ExI] =?windows-1252?q?Video_and_discussion_=96_Randal_A=2E_Koene?=
	=?windows-1252?q?_on_Realistic_Routes_to_Substrate-Independent_Min?=
	=?windows-1252?q?ds=2C_Teleplace=2C_July_17=2C_2010?=
Message-ID: <AANLkTikCT_HzKzCcxjpxqii1p7p_otol9vV_-CAkKPrd@mail.gmail.com>

Video and discussion ? Randal A. Koene on Realistic Routes to
Substrate-Independent Minds, Teleplace, July 17, 2010
http://giulioprisco.blogspot.com/2010/07/randal-koene-on-realistic-routes-to_18.html

Randal A. Koene gave a talk in Teleplace on ?Realistic Routes to
Substrate-Independent Minds? on July 17, 2010. We recorded the full
video of the presentation and Q/A in two versions: one from a fixed
point of view, and another from the dynamic point of view of a
participant who zooms on all slides to read the text better.

Full video of the presentation and Q/A (fixed point of view)
http://telexlr8.blip.tv/file/3894880/
Full video of the presentation and Q/A (participant?s dynamic point of view)
http://telexlr8.blip.tv/file/3894901/

This presentation has been a very comprehensive introduction to
Substrate-Independent Minds and a very interesting discussion of
current research, recent advances, and future possibilities. The Q/A
session has been very lively, and there has been no time to ask and
answer all the questions raised by the presentation. The good friends
at KurzweilAI have created a discussion forum on Realistic Routes to
Substrate-Independent Minds (continuation of Teleplace), where we can
continue the discussion. We encourage all those who attended the live
presentation in Teleplace and have other questions, as well as those
who have watched the video of the presentation and Q/A, to ask
questions and discuss on the KurzweilAI forum.
http://www.kurzweilai.net/forums/topic/realistic-routes-to-substrate-independent-minds-continuation-of-teleplace

Realistic Routes to Substrate-Independent Minds
Randal A. Koene ? carboncopies.org

Take as a given that the Church-Turing thesis applies to human
thinking, that our minds are complex machines, but machines
nonetheless. Let us also assume that we already understand many of the
scientific, societal and even evolutionary pressures ? as described in
several of my previous talks ? that underscore the need to augment our
minds with the capabilities of machine intelligence and the
adaptability to operate in computational substrates other than those
of the cerebral neurophysiology. What do we know about the possible
target substrates and the procedures that may achieve a transition to
such substrates? Which are the primary remaining scientific
challenges, and which are the engineering hurdles to be overcome? At
carboncopies.org, we are taking steps to identify and formulate
rational approaches to these problems. For example, on one end of the
spectrum we investigate feasible and careful ways to accomplish
subject-specific data acquisition and whole brain emulation, while on
the other we lend support to proposals for commercially viable
developments in cognitive augmentation. We actively encourage peer
review through publications and events such as the workshop on
Advancing Substrate Independent Minds (ASIM-2010) in San Francisco,
August 16-17, 2010.



From thespike at satx.rr.com  Sun Jul 18 16:55:16 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2010 11:55:16 -0500
Subject: [ExI] atheists de-baptize unbelievers:
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTik-7y9OMWu0fRclqhsAgQGykS7hjCneYXXiZgp7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <201007172220.o6HMKY7a002861@andromeda.ziaspace.com>	<AANLkTinQVytaEJmvcYiUCBLXtvfsuzQu0vv84ADOtChO@mail.gmail.com>	<4C4258EB.9080107@satx.rr.com>	<AANLkTinh3oNzBI-7KM3tGOGywoE4h61aNoZTu9CXYg02@mail.gmail.com>	<AANLkTil-0pKUHH5ZoU9zmi6GZEX4fD3cY-GJQhMJJGwQ@mail.gmail.com>	<AANLkTilh4S3AVxmn1KGumnUk0L87-Qmix-R7HpF4IosJ@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTik-7y9OMWu0fRclqhsAgQGykS7hjCneYXXiZgp7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4C4331F4.3000707@satx.rr.com>

On 7/18/2010 5:10 AM, John Grigg wrote:

> And the degree of arrogance, outright
> crudeness, and countless straw man arguments just astounds me!

What would be five or ten examples of these countless straw men 
arguments, John?

(I can think of a few that probably aren't quite that, but I'd be 
interested to hear yours.)

Damien Broderick


From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Sun Jul 18 18:12:48 2010
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2010 14:12:48 -0400
Subject: [ExI] medical marijuana
In-Reply-To: <COL112-W6351FDE8E15239A820296E9DBB0@phx.gbl>
References: <5D4D1827DC354859B3F1650FA9B7C985@spike>
	<COL112-W6351FDE8E15239A820296E9DBB0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <AANLkTilaPu-jMS4DMPY8ZuN6h13IMIzS8LLFJEBFeJ_l@mail.gmail.com>

2010/7/15 darren shawn greer <dgreer_68 at hotmail.com>


>   I got malaria and nearly died. If I had seen a doctor prior to making
> the switch, he or she would almost have certainly checked my itinerary
> before putting me on a new drug.
>

### Indeed. While having experts (especially experts chosen through a
bureaucracy) assume control should never be mandatory, there are good
reasons to ask experts for advice voluntarily.

---------------------------


>
> Also, some medications don't treat symptoms but underlying causes. HIV
> medications are a good example. Reverse transcriptease inhibitors, protease
> inhibitors, fusion inhibitors all interfere with cellular reproduction of
> the virus. Sometimes it takes several different kinds at once to effectively
> reduce viral loads, and you only know if it's working by having regular CD4
> and viral load counts. All of these drugs have resistance issues, and it is
> preferable to know about them before you become symptomatic, which with this
> disease is always a dangerous proposition. This also requires lab testing.
> In addition, some herbal medications, such as St. John's Wart, inhibit
> uptake of anti-virals into the body through the liver. This field changes so
> rapidly that even specialized doctors who attend conferences constantly find
> it hard to keep up. General practitioners often don?t even bother to try and
> refer patients to infectious disease clinics instead. Some diseases are very
> complex, and require specialized physicians to treat patients. It is often
> not enough to just take a pill. I see making certain drugs available without
> a prescription hazardous in terms of the health of the general population.
> This could create viruses such as HIV with a higher profile of resistance at
> time of sero-conversion because of wide-spread misuse of medications due to
> ignorance of the science involved.
>

### Here we have another case where the absence of effective private
property protection results in social harm. Since inventors of anti-viral
drugs have only a limited period of patent protection, they have a lower
incentive to oversee and restrict their use so as to extend their
effectiveness. In addition, illegally produced drugs, and larcenous
government intervention reduce the price the inventors can charge, further
reducing the incentive to protect the effectiveness of a drug.

A socially progressive solution would be of course to have unlimited
duration of universally binding patent protection on all new drugs, without
any price restrictions imposed by illegitimate third parties (governments).
In this way inventors would have the incentive and the financial resources
to achieve most extensive and persistent use of their drugs. In addition,
inventing drugs would be more lucrative, increasing the amount of capital
investment in drug research, increasing their supply.

Rafal
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100718/c1aa097b/attachment.html>

From nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk  Sun Jul 18 22:11:04 2010
From: nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk (Tom Nowell)
Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2010 22:11:04 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [ExI] Peak wood? Overcoming energy crises
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1279454403.27742.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <446055.64567.qm@web27003.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

What the article doesn't mention is the long-term environmental consequences. In the 21st century, the UK still has the least tree cover of any country in Europe, centuries after coal came into use. Also, the old nicknames of London - "the big smoke" and Edinburgh - "Auld Reekie" (that's Old Smokey in English) show that even in the 19th century the consequences of all that coal-burning were clear.

If better fission technologies, or De-T fusion, are the non-fossil technologies that are hard to deplete and cost-effective to implement, the early adopters will probably be left with the serious amounts of nuclear waste generated. (The UK has a plutonium stockpile vastly out of size in comparison to any nuclear arsenal it had, mostly from attempts at breeder reactors).


There are consequences to our energy decisions, the problem with peak oil/gas/uranium/etc. is that they force our hand and may make us rush into changing energy supplies quickly without thinking the consequences through.
(Also, as the article points out, they may force us into constraining energy consumption by ill-thought out laws or subsidies)

Tom


      



From Frankmac at ripco.com  Sun Jul 18 23:30:04 2010
From: Frankmac at ripco.com (Frank McElligott)
Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2010 19:30:04 -0400
Subject: [ExI] I know we moved on about psi
Message-ID: <001101cb26d1$670285b0$ad753644@sx28047db9d36c>

So she has won 4 lotteries, almost all scratch type and all  at 50 dollars a pop to play.

These lotteries have a small life period, once the big prize is won most people will not ponie up 50 smackers to scratch a ticket where the prize has been won.
 
The state take 50 percent off the top , 10%  goes for top prize and 40% returned to the player in smaller prizes.

Once the game is put into play by the state she waits until  over half the tickets have been bought and no winner of the top prize.

What she now knows is that the odds have improved(changed) from a sucker bet, which the lottery is,  to a one that she has a good chance of winning., all the tickets bought were losers, and the remaining tickets not yet purchased contain the winner. More important every day that goes by her odds improve.More losinf tickets are bought and removed from the pool. Now if she has kept a record of average days before the winning ticket is bought, throws out the outliers, she will improve her chances even more.  

Only reason this works is the 50 dollar's price, it limits the number of tickets  in the pool (printed) and improves the odds even more. 

Seems Stanford grad's are no dummies,  

intellect always trumps PSI, but luck and fate trumps all

Frank


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100718/2cbba151/attachment.html>

From msd001 at gmail.com  Sun Jul 18 23:16:03 2010
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2010 19:16:03 -0400
Subject: [ExI] atheists de-baptize unbelievers:
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTilh4S3AVxmn1KGumnUk0L87-Qmix-R7HpF4IosJ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <201007172220.o6HMKY7a002861@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<AANLkTinQVytaEJmvcYiUCBLXtvfsuzQu0vv84ADOtChO@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C4258EB.9080107@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTinh3oNzBI-7KM3tGOGywoE4h61aNoZTu9CXYg02@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTil-0pKUHH5ZoU9zmi6GZEX4fD3cY-GJQhMJJGwQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTilh4S3AVxmn1KGumnUk0L87-Qmix-R7HpF4IosJ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTil16nzQqto0A4urpj16434wqhSKjX0G2_sIaB7s@mail.gmail.com>

2010/7/18 Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com>:
> Agree with Will.
>
> Everyone should be free to waste their time and energy as they please,
> provided they don't harm others. Myself, I would join a sport fan club
> rather than New Atheist fundamentalists.

Giulio quotes the Wiccan Rede!  I'd continue making fun of him, but
then it would become a witch hunt.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiccan_Rede

ps: "What else floats on water?"


From kanzure at gmail.com  Sun Jul 18 23:42:17 2010
From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop)
Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2010 18:42:17 -0500
Subject: [ExI] I know we moved on about psi
In-Reply-To: <001101cb26d1$670285b0$ad753644@sx28047db9d36c>
References: <001101cb26d1$670285b0$ad753644@sx28047db9d36c>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimlb_CXNUbRSjND1n2GDFvEgL8QgYEt-WVzaz6T@mail.gmail.com>

2010/7/18 Frank McElligott <Frankmac at ripco.com>

> What she now knows is that the odds have improved(changed) from a sucker
> bet, which the lottery is,  to a one that she has a good chance of winning.,
> all the tickets bought were losers, and the remaining tickets not yet
> purchased contain the winner. More important every day that goes by her odds
> improve.More losinf tickets are bought and removed from the pool. Now if she
> has kept a record of average days before the winning ticket is bought,
> throws out the outliers, she will improve her chances even more.


I am wondering by how much the odds improve each day and whether or not the
risk is any greater than traditional investment. There's a payoff between
risk and rate of return on investment, of course, and playing initially with
the 1-in-175-million odds for a Mega Millions game is pretty crazy (although
maybe not crazy for the $1 it costs?). Still, if by investing $20M in
tickets you're able to get a 40% chance of tripling your money (and 60%
chance of just completely losing it of course), how does that work out? Hm.

- Bryan
http://heybryan.org/
1 512 203 0507
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100718/64c0e127/attachment.html>

From pharos at gmail.com  Mon Jul 19 00:08:10 2010
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2010 01:08:10 +0100
Subject: [ExI] How could this former math professor find an edge in
	playing the lottery???
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTiledF3emXSnC-7ugDO84R-FK5vlijozxy4P91gL@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTiledF3emXSnC-7ugDO84R-FK5vlijozxy4P91gL@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikIAGcyHZt6CfLzBVSrS-Cks9WT4_6iPj7IcTI2@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/14/10, John Grigg wrote:
> Does anyone here have a theory regarding how this former math
>  professor won the lottery FOUR TIMES??  She must have figured
>  something out to give herself a very significant edge...  Applied
>  mathematics? Psi?  Computer hacking?  Or maybe she's a time traveler
>  who likes the simple life?  ; )
>
>


OK. Here's how it works......

First.  She is a maths professor. So she knows how to calculate odds.

Second.  She likes a fun gamble on the scratchies and she knows that
different games have different odds of winning a prize. Not only that,
but the odds change from day to day for each game as the big prizes
are won. Sometimes all the big prizes have already been won for a
particular game but the game cards are still on sale, so a savvy
gambler would not buy cards for that game.  Then one day she gets
lucky and has her first win of 5.5 million.

Third. Now she has 5.5 million to leverage her scratch card buying
system. If she buys a million dollars worth of scratchies in a game
where the big prizes are still available she would have to be really
unlucky not to win another prize. As she has proved.

QED

BillK


From msd001 at gmail.com  Mon Jul 19 02:11:06 2010
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2010 22:11:06 -0400
Subject: [ExI] How could this former math professor find an edge in
	playing the lottery???
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikIAGcyHZt6CfLzBVSrS-Cks9WT4_6iPj7IcTI2@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTiledF3emXSnC-7ugDO84R-FK5vlijozxy4P91gL@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikIAGcyHZt6CfLzBVSrS-Cks9WT4_6iPj7IcTI2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTik62zS26PfX1EQR5Z6fKDmjKt6SgzqM_O28vgXR@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jul 18, 2010 at 8:08 PM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:
> OK. Here's how it works......

So you're saying
1) be lucky
2) keep being lucky

Or have I oversimplified?


From spike66 at att.net  Mon Jul 19 03:53:09 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (Gregory Jones)
Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2010 20:53:09 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Peak wood? Overcoming energy crises
In-Reply-To: <446055.64567.qm@web27003.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <656240.49932.qm@web81505.mail.mud.yahoo.com>


--- On Sun, 7/18/10, Tom Nowell <nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

...


...What the article doesn't mention is the long-term environmental consequences...nicknames of London - "the big smoke" and Edinburgh - "Auld Reekie" (that's Old Smokey in English) ...Tom


Tom, the most important names in evolution theory were British: Darwin of course, Thomas Huxley, Robert Chambers, Alfred Wallace, all the early big names were Brits.? People who know, is this correct?? 
?
Second, coal burning took off early in Britain, ja???So the forests around the highly industrialized areas had a lot of black coal soot.? There is a cerain moth as I recall which is ordinarily brown mottled with white splotches, so that it blends in with it's normal background, the trees with their mossy white splotches.? But some of these moths are completely black, with only a few dark brown spots.
?
In those areas where there was a lot of coal burning, perhaps the soot turned the tree trunks black, which favored the black moths to the disadvantage of the white and brown, whereas in the countryside, far from the industrial coal burning areas, the unstained trees would favor hiding the motley white and brown moths, suggesting to the careful observer the notion of natural selection.? Since Britain had both countryside and highly industrialized London with forests immediately downwind, perhaps coal burning led British naturalists to discover evolution first.
?
Tom you British guys lead the world still in evolutionary theory.? {8-]
?
spike
?
?
?
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100718/dab6e70c/attachment.html>

From giulio at gmail.com  Mon Jul 19 05:16:09 2010
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2010 07:16:09 +0200
Subject: [ExI] atheists de-baptize unbelievers:
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTil16nzQqto0A4urpj16434wqhSKjX0G2_sIaB7s@mail.gmail.com>
References: <201007172220.o6HMKY7a002861@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<AANLkTinQVytaEJmvcYiUCBLXtvfsuzQu0vv84ADOtChO@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C4258EB.9080107@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTinh3oNzBI-7KM3tGOGywoE4h61aNoZTu9CXYg02@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTil-0pKUHH5ZoU9zmi6GZEX4fD3cY-GJQhMJJGwQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTilh4S3AVxmn1KGumnUk0L87-Qmix-R7HpF4IosJ@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTil16nzQqto0A4urpj16434wqhSKjX0G2_sIaB7s@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTilYm9MOc_bzZTeBUGBKFXckYCLnQewgL_-AlZnB@mail.gmail.com>

I did not know about the Wiccan Rede, but yes, I do follow the "An it
harm none do what ye will" principles, which I consider one of the
keys for a better world. Thanks for the historical reference tho.

Why, I can think of many things that float on water. Did you have
something specific in mind?

On Mon, Jul 19, 2010 at 1:16 AM, Mike Dougherty <msd001 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 2010/7/18 Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com>:
>> Agree with Will.
>>
>> Everyone should be free to waste their time and energy as they please,
>> provided they don't harm others. Myself, I would join a sport fan club
>> rather than New Atheist fundamentalists.
>
> Giulio quotes the Wiccan Rede! ?I'd continue making fun of him, but
> then it would become a witch hunt.
>
> [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiccan_Rede
>
> ps: "What else floats on water?"
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>



From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu  Mon Jul 19 05:49:28 2010
From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan)
Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2010 22:49:28 -0700
Subject: [ExI] medical marijuana
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTilaPu-jMS4DMPY8ZuN6h13IMIzS8LLFJEBFeJ_l@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5D4D1827DC354859B3F1650FA9B7C985@spike>
	<COL112-W6351FDE8E15239A820296E9DBB0@phx.gbl>
	<AANLkTilaPu-jMS4DMPY8ZuN6h13IMIzS8LLFJEBFeJ_l@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20100719054928.GA2644@ofb.net>

On Sun, Jul 18, 2010 at 02:12:48PM -0400, Rafal Smigrodzki wrote:

>    A socially progressive solution would be of course to have unlimited
>    duration of universally binding patent protection on all new drugs,
>    without any price restrictions imposed by illegitimate third parties
>    (governments). In this way inventors would have the incentive and the

No governments, no patents.

Takes the power of a government to tell me I can't copy a book I own, or
imitate a machine or drug I saw in public.

-xx- Damien X-) 


From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Mon Jul 19 07:56:25 2010
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2010 03:56:25 -0400
Subject: [ExI] New IP thread
Message-ID: <AANLkTikZbK59Ih7sL03Hascx_9AXPbueZWjS3_SBK3pZ@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jul 19, 2010 at 1:49 AM, Damien Sullivan
<phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu> wrote:
> On Sun, Jul 18, 2010 at 02:12:48PM -0400, Rafal Smigrodzki wrote:
>
>> ? ?A socially progressive solution would be of course to have unlimited
>> ? ?duration of universally binding patent protection on all new drugs,
>> ? ?without any price restrictions imposed by illegitimate third parties
>> ? ?(governments). In this way inventors would have the incentive and the
>
> No governments, no patents.
>
> Takes the power of a government to tell me I can't copy a book I own, or
> imitate a machine or drug I saw in public.

### Define "government".

The way I see it, it is possible to have effective IP laws without
government. In fact, any law content can be generated by
non-governmental methods, aside from laws that constitute the
government itself. It's a question of what a sufficient number of
people believe is right, not an issue of the methods/sources of
generating laws. Where there is a human desire, there is a way of
making it into law - and the desire to have strong IP protection may
lead to highly efficient outcomes, despite its current lack of
popularity.

I can only advise to try to approach the problem of IP not from a
first-person perspective but to start with a comparative analysis of
efficiency of various hypothetical laws, given a range of plausible
assumptions about the properties of societies where these laws could
exist. From this exercise you might make guesses about the
laws (and supporting moral beliefs as well as technological
constraints) that are efficient, and therefore desirable. Once you
have that, ask what kind of legal methodology and what kind of social
organization would be needed to support such laws.

I do believe that a pluralistic, non-governed society consisting of
entities still recognizably human would be capable of generating
strong IP protection, and that this would be highly efficient. For a
vision of a pluralistic society with extremely strong, privately
provided IP laws see John C. Wright's "Golden Age" series.

Rafal

P.S. An interesting thought occurred to me - compare a society where
all thoughts of every individual are open to control by other
individuals (unless specifically protected from external control), vs.
a society where all individual thoughts are protected from other
individuals (unless specifically excluded from protection). Draw
parallels with operating systems that allow any program to execute any
operations on the code of another program, unless specifically
proscribed, vs. systems that generally prevent programs from modifying
each other, unless specifically allowed. Which operating system is
more robust? This is a good starting point to thinking about the deep
underpinnings of IP law.



From pharos at gmail.com  Mon Jul 19 07:58:29 2010
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2010 08:58:29 +0100
Subject: [ExI] How could this former math professor find an edge in
	playing the lottery???
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTik62zS26PfX1EQR5Z6fKDmjKt6SgzqM_O28vgXR@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTiledF3emXSnC-7ugDO84R-FK5vlijozxy4P91gL@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikIAGcyHZt6CfLzBVSrS-Cks9WT4_6iPj7IcTI2@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTik62zS26PfX1EQR5Z6fKDmjKt6SgzqM_O28vgXR@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTineyEPBGVHwE80rjCmSXmrAmdrBdKWg2i-3U7m6@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/19/10, Mike Dougherty wrote:
> So you're saying
>  1) be lucky
>  2) keep being lucky
>
>  Or have I oversimplified?
>
>

Nearly correct.  You need the first 'Be lucky'.
Like being the son of millionaire parents or being left a few million
in grandad's will.

But there is one in 40 million lucky and one in 100,000 lucky.
All 'lucky's are not equal.
With adequate funding, one in 100,000 luck becomes near certainty.


BillK


From stathisp at gmail.com  Mon Jul 19 08:12:42 2010
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2010 18:12:42 +1000
Subject: [ExI] I know we moved on about psi
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimlb_CXNUbRSjND1n2GDFvEgL8QgYEt-WVzaz6T@mail.gmail.com>
References: <001101cb26d1$670285b0$ad753644@sx28047db9d36c> 
	<AANLkTimlb_CXNUbRSjND1n2GDFvEgL8QgYEt-WVzaz6T@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinMOeppInXSvLOh2Kw04imYwoTGfTeW1r0zxAoY@mail.gmail.com>

2010/7/19 Bryan Bishop <kanzure at gmail.com>:

> I am wondering by how much the odds improve each day and whether or not the
> risk is any greater than traditional investment. There's a payoff between
> risk and rate of return on investment, of course, and playing initially with
> the 1-in-175-million odds for a Mega Millions game is pretty crazy (although
> maybe not crazy for the $1 it costs?). Still, if by investing $20M in
> tickets you're able to get a 40% chance of tripling your money (and 60%
> chance of just completely losing it of course), how does that work out? Hm.

40% * $60M = $24M, a 20% return on investment. That is extremely good,
although you will have to do it multiple times to be confident that
you will win (the more times you do it, the more likely it is that
your return will be 20%). Strangely enough, you can be more confident
of the return on the lottery than you would be with conventional
investment. Depending on what sort of lottery it is you might be able
to calculate the expected return exactly, while in conventional
investment such as on the stock market the return and its probability
are just educated guesses at best.


-- 
Stathis Papaioannou


From dgreer_68 at hotmail.com  Sun Jul 18 02:13:51 2010
From: dgreer_68 at hotmail.com (darren shawn greer)
Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2010 22:13:51 -0400
Subject: [ExI] atheists de-baptize unbelievers:
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinh3oNzBI-7KM3tGOGywoE4h61aNoZTu9CXYg02@mail.gmail.com>
References: <201007172220.o6HMKY7a002861@andromeda.ziaspace.com>,
	<AANLkTinQVytaEJmvcYiUCBLXtvfsuzQu0vv84ADOtChO@mail.gmail.com>,
	<4C4258EB.9080107@satx.rr.com>,
	<AANLkTinh3oNzBI-7KM3tGOGywoE4h61aNoZTu9CXYg02@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <COL112-W65B849486339F1493A9AB19DBE0@phx.gbl>


  Hey, I'm about to leave for a dance party (I don't get out much)! I'm
> wondering about the ratio of virtous vrs. un-virtuous women who will
> be there...

 

If you find too many virtous ones, you can always tell them that Aristotle claimed that over-regulating desire through excessive virtue was a character flaw. Not sure if that'll get you anywhere but an odd look or a slap. Last resort maybe. Have fun.

 

Darrern

 

 


Per Ardua Ad Astra
For more info on author Darren Greer visit 
http://darrenshawngreer.blogspot.com
 


 

> Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2010 19:04:19 -0700
> From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com
> To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> Subject: Re: [ExI] atheists de-baptize unbelievers:
> 
> Damien wrote:
> Proxy de-baptizing is not meant as a means of denying anyone anything
> real, including immortality once science perfects it. It instead helps
> detach the virtuous from mind-warping foolishness and exploitation,
> should the person *choose* to accept it.
> >>
> 
> Okay, Damien, you made your point as a card-carrying atheist who
> chases me around with a sharpened Occam's razor! lol But the virtous
> can come in many forms and from a multitude of groups.
> 
> Hey, I'm about to leave for a dance party (I don't get out much)! I'm
> wondering about the ratio of virtous vrs. un-virtuous women who will
> be there...
> 
> John : )
> 
> 
> On 7/17/10, Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com> wrote:
> > On 7/17/2010 7:46 PM, John Grigg wrote:
> >
> >> The Mormon proxy baptisms are not meant as a means of granting anyone
> >> immortality. It instead gives membership into God's church and
> >> kingdom, should the person on the other side*choose* to accept it.
> >
> > Proxy de-baptizing is not meant as a means of denying anyone anything
> > real, including immortality once science perfects it. It instead helps
> > detach the virtuous from mind-warping foolishness and exploitation,
> > should the person *choose* to accept it.
> >
> > Damien Broderick
> > _______________________________________________
> > extropy-chat mailing list
> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> >
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

 		 	   		  
_________________________________________________________________
Learn more ways to connect with your buddies now
http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9734388
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100717/bed8652e/attachment.html>

From dgreer_68 at hotmail.com  Sun Jul 18 14:02:55 2010
From: dgreer_68 at hotmail.com (darren shawn greer)
Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2010 10:02:55 -0400
Subject: [ExI] atheists de-baptize unbelievers:
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTik-7y9OMWu0fRclqhsAgQGykS7hjCneYXXiZgp7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <201007172220.o6HMKY7a002861@andromeda.ziaspace.com>,
	<AANLkTinQVytaEJmvcYiUCBLXtvfsuzQu0vv84ADOtChO@mail.gmail.com>,
	<4C4258EB.9080107@satx.rr.com>,
	<AANLkTinh3oNzBI-7KM3tGOGywoE4h61aNoZTu9CXYg02@mail.gmail.com>,
	<AANLkTil-0pKUHH5ZoU9zmi6GZEX4fD3cY-GJQhMJJGwQ@mail.gmail.com>,
	<AANLkTilh4S3AVxmn1KGumnUk0L87-Qmix-R7HpF4IosJ@mail.gmail.com>,
	<AANLkTik-7y9OMWu0fRclqhsAgQGykS7hjCneYXXiZgp7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <COL112-W9F4BEBE694BAC4CE96BFF9DBE0@phx.gbl>


Will, very poignantly said. I'm a believer who has friends on both
> sides of the chasm. But on Facebook I have many atheist "friends
> (friends of friends)" who talk about nothing but their loathing of
> Christianity & apparently all religion in general. It is like these
> people have "no lives" and quite simply don't talk about other things
> (like family, work, school, popular culture) , except their
> anti-religion obsession. And the degree of arrogance, outright
> crudeness, and countless straw man arguments just astounds me! I used
> to think hardcore Evangelical Christian fundamentalists took the cake
> on this stuff, but I now give the nod to their obnoxious opposition.
>

 

Well said. I've been wanting to say something similar myself, and have been a bit troubled by the amount of space spent on-line by fellow atheists ridiculing and making fun of the beliefs of others. I'm not a believer, but my parents are. They are devout Christians, with a quiet, simple faith. It has been a great stabilizer in their lives and has made them, as far as I'm concerned, happier, more balanced and productive people than they were before they believed. Because they respect my meta-physical/philosophical position as an atheist, I have been forced to respect theirs. I have learned over the years that to paint all Christians (Moslems, Parsis, Jains, Hindu's, Buddhists, whatever) with the same brush--judging them by the worst or most fanatic followers --is as misleading as saying all men are murderers because some do occasionally take lives.
 



 

Per Ardua Ad Astra
For more info on author Darren Greer visit 
http://darrenshawngreer.blogspot.com
 


 

> Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2010 03:10:53 -0700
> From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com
> To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> Subject: Re: [ExI] atheists de-baptize unbelievers:
> 
> Will Steinberg wrote:
> Pretentious atheism ruins atheism. A smart, sensible atheist ignores
> baptism, because it has zero meaning outside of its believers. Kagin
> seems like he actually believes that children are wrongfully made to
> become Christian when that drop of water touches their heads, and that
> he has to undo the horror. Wouldn't it be more productive to
> just...ignore the whole thing?
> 
> I know smart people love to make belittling jokes, but sometimes too
> much masturbating of the ego actually validates the other side. Every
> "A for Atheist" shirt only pounds home the idea of Faith, Symbol,
> Faith!
> >>>
> 
> Will, very poignantly said. I'm a believer who has friends on both
> sides of the chasm. But on Facebook I have many atheist "friends
> (friends of friends)" who talk about nothing but their loathing of
> Christianity & apparently all religion in general. It is like these
> people have "no lives" and quite simply don't talk about other things
> (like family, work, school, popular culture) , except their
> anti-religion obsession. And the degree of arrogance, outright
> crudeness, and countless straw man arguments just astounds me! I used
> to think hardcore Evangelical Christian fundamentalists took the cake
> on this stuff, but I now give the nod to their obnoxious opposition.
> 
> John
> 
> 
> On 7/18/10, Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Agree with Will.
> >
> > Everyone should be free to waste their time and energy as they please,
> > provided they don't harm others. Myself, I would join a sport fan club
> > rather than New Atheist fundamentalists.
> >
> > --
> > Giulio Prisco
> > giulio at gmail.com
> > (39)3387219799
> >
> > On Jul 18, 2010 6:54 AM, "Will Steinberg" <steinberg.will at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Pretentious atheism ruins atheism. A smart, sensible atheist ignores
> > baptism, because it has zero meaning outside of its believers. Kagin seems
> > like he actually believes that children are wrongfully made to *become
> > Christian* when that drop of water touches their heads, and that he has to
> > undo the horror. Wouldn't it be more productive to just...ignore the whole
> > thing?
> >
> > I know smart people love to make belittling jokes, but sometimes too much
> > masturbating of the ego actually validates the other side. Every "A for
> > Atheist" shirt only pounds home the idea of Faith, Symbol, Faith!
> >
> > I fear for atheism when its harbingers are empathy-less prats...
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > extropy-chat mailing list
> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> >
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

 		 	   		  
_________________________________________________________________
Game on: Challenge friends to great games on Messenger
http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9734387
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100718/5ec3cb38/attachment.html>

From rlitzkow at gmail.com  Mon Jul 19 07:40:42 2010
From: rlitzkow at gmail.com (Richard Litzkow)
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2010 17:40:42 +1000
Subject: [ExI] atheists de-baptize unbelievers:
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTilYm9MOc_bzZTeBUGBKFXckYCLnQewgL_-AlZnB@mail.gmail.com>
References: <201007172220.o6HMKY7a002861@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<AANLkTinQVytaEJmvcYiUCBLXtvfsuzQu0vv84ADOtChO@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C4258EB.9080107@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTinh3oNzBI-7KM3tGOGywoE4h61aNoZTu9CXYg02@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTil-0pKUHH5ZoU9zmi6GZEX4fD3cY-GJQhMJJGwQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTilh4S3AVxmn1KGumnUk0L87-Qmix-R7HpF4IosJ@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTil16nzQqto0A4urpj16434wqhSKjX0G2_sIaB7s@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTilYm9MOc_bzZTeBUGBKFXckYCLnQewgL_-AlZnB@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTins8wRtfcfhXKaAweck03Bn_Ru1WKxMSZPNsHLx@mail.gmail.com>

'What else floats on water' is a quote from Monty Python (Monty Python and
the Holy Grail) from the Witch Hunting sketch.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/mphg/mphg.htm

As regards the original post; as long as the participants don't take their
event seriously I think that a little mockery is only fair. We let religious
blow hards make statements about how homosexuals, Jews and Muslims 'caused'
Hurricane Katrina and the Indonesian tsunami, all without any trace of
irony, then a group of atheists de-baptising people is all in good fun.

I don't even think that this;
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/jan/06/religion-atheism is
going too far either.

- Richard Litzkow
-- 
"For what purpose humanity is there should not even concern us: why you are
there, that you should ask yourself: and if you have no ready answer, then
set yourself goals, high and noble goals, and perish in pursuit of them! I
know of no better life purpose than to perish in attempting the great and
the impossible..." Nietzsche
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100719/d956d796/attachment.html>

From ryanobjc at gmail.com  Mon Jul 19 08:17:05 2010
From: ryanobjc at gmail.com (Ryan Rawson)
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2010 01:17:05 -0700
Subject: [ExI] New IP thread
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikZbK59Ih7sL03Hascx_9AXPbueZWjS3_SBK3pZ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTikZbK59Ih7sL03Hascx_9AXPbueZWjS3_SBK3pZ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimUezfBnP0DjEACxXWeCF32W4SeChi-ag47usSd@mail.gmail.com>

I'm not really sure I buy the analogy in the PS - memory protections
and private thoughts are really not the same as "IP" which is
information people wish to make public and shared with others.

I also think it's an supposition that strong IP leads to more
efficient outcomes. Efficient comes in various flavors too, since an
efficient economy might not have creative solutions and innovations -
does the iPod belong in an efficient economy?

Strong IP has become a threat to those who make things happen and
encourages IP trolls which are a pretty sick twisted outcome of the
current system (and would be more prevalent in stronger IP regimes).
Besides which, no new invention really comes out of thin air, and it
can be a minefield for independent creators to be in the business of
IP creation.  Be it copyright claims, patent threats, or just vague
legal threats, creation ends up being a big-company thing only.

I found Free Culture particularly enlightening - lessig has thought
about this aspect fairly well I think.

-ryan

On Mon, Jul 19, 2010 at 12:56 AM, Rafal Smigrodzki
<rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 19, 2010 at 1:49 AM, Damien Sullivan
> <phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu> wrote:
>> On Sun, Jul 18, 2010 at 02:12:48PM -0400, Rafal Smigrodzki wrote:
>>
>>> ? ?A socially progressive solution would be of course to have unlimited
>>> ? ?duration of universally binding patent protection on all new drugs,
>>> ? ?without any price restrictions imposed by illegitimate third parties
>>> ? ?(governments). In this way inventors would have the incentive and the
>>
>> No governments, no patents.
>>
>> Takes the power of a government to tell me I can't copy a book I own, or
>> imitate a machine or drug I saw in public.
>
> ### Define "government".
>
> The way I see it, it is possible to have effective IP laws without
> government. In fact, any law content can be generated by
> non-governmental methods, aside from laws that constitute the
> government itself. It's a question of what a sufficient number of
> people believe is right, not an issue of the methods/sources of
> generating laws. Where there is a human desire, there is a way of
> making it into law - and the desire to have strong IP protection may
> lead to highly efficient outcomes, despite its current lack of
> popularity.
>
> I can only advise to try to approach the problem of IP not from a
> first-person perspective but to start with a comparative analysis of
> efficiency of various hypothetical laws, given a range of plausible
> assumptions about the properties of societies where these laws could
> exist. From this exercise you might make guesses about the
> laws (and supporting moral beliefs as well as technological
> constraints) that are efficient, and therefore desirable. Once you
> have that, ask what kind of legal methodology and what kind of social
> organization would be needed to support such laws.
>
> I do believe that a pluralistic, non-governed society consisting of
> entities still recognizably human would be capable of generating
> strong IP protection, and that this would be highly efficient. For a
> vision of a pluralistic society with extremely strong, privately
> provided IP laws see John C. Wright's "Golden Age" series.
>
> Rafal
>
> P.S. An interesting thought occurred to me - compare a society where
> all thoughts of every individual are open to control by other
> individuals (unless specifically protected from external control), vs.
> a society where all individual thoughts are protected from other
> individuals (unless specifically excluded from protection). Draw
> parallels with operating systems that allow any program to execute any
> operations on the code of another program, unless specifically
> proscribed, vs. systems that generally prevent programs from modifying
> each other, unless specifically allowed. Which operating system is
> more robust? This is a good starting point to thinking about the deep
> underpinnings of IP law.
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>



From giulio at gmail.com  Mon Jul 19 16:15:13 2010
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2010 18:15:13 +0200
Subject: [ExI] TransVision 2010: New confirmed speakers
Message-ID: <AANLkTikq6KrgKPioLtn3nBkhNs4_DTMDuRz6shVduWgP@mail.gmail.com>

TransVision 2010: New confirmed speakers
http://transvision2010.wordpress.com/2010/07/19/transvision-2010-new-confirmed-speakers/

The following speakers will give talks at TransVision 2010, which
brings the number of confirmed speakers to 24. Other speakers will be
announced in a few days.

Roberto Guerra: writer and video poet. His published works include,
among other writings, ?Marinetti e il Duemila? (in AA.VV. ?Divenire 3
Futurismo? edited by AIT, 2009, Sestante Edizioni) and  ?Moana Lisa
Cyberpunk? (Edizioni Diversa Sintonia, 2010). He participated in ?The
Scientist International Videoart Festival? organized by Ferrara
Video&Arte. In 2009 he organized, with Graziano Cecchini ?Futurismo
100 live?, dedicated to 100 years of Futurism. Since 2010 he is the
coordinator of the Laboratory of Futurist Literature of AIT (Italian
Transhumanist Association).

Alex Lightman is the Executive Director of Humanity+ (formerly the
World Transhumanist Association), author of over 800,000 words mainly
about science, technology, science fiction, and the future including
Brave New Unwired World: The Digital Big Bang and the Infinite
Internet. He is a graduate of MIT and attended graduate school at MIT
and Harvard. He completed Army Airborne paratrooper training, Navy
Cold Weather Survival School, and over 25 road races including six
marathons in the last 18 months. He got support from 40 countries for
his government policy recommendations for IPv6.

Marta Rossi graduated (B.A.) in Philosophy of Mind and Languages from
San Raffaele University (Milan) with a dissertation on self-reference.
She received her M.A. from the same institution with a final
dissertation on the ontology of functionalism and its consequences in
ethics and social theory. Her research are focused on mind-body
relations, philosophical and scientific accounts of consciousness and
the link between Singularity and social changes. Currently a Ph.D.
Candidate in Philosophy and Cognitive Sciences, she has been working @
iLabs since 2006, where she is Strategic Partnership Manager, leading
the management of projects in ethics, social and political theory.

Jacopo Tagliabue graduated (B.A.) in Philosophy of Mind and Languages
from San Raffaele University (Milan) with a dissertation on formal
ontology. He received his M.A. from the same institution with a final
dissertation on scientific explanations in complex systems. He studied
microeconomics, statistics and complexity theory in renowned
international institutions (London School of Economics, New York
University, Santa Fe Institute) and he is currently a Ph.D. Candidate
in Philosophy and Cognitive Sciences. He has been working @ iLabs
since 2006, where he is now Chief Scientist for Qualitative Modelling.

Francesco Verso is an Italian SF writer (tough he defines his genre as
?future fiction? from a definition of Anthony Burgess for A Clockwork
Orange). He follows transhumanism since many years because its themes
are strictly connected to the ones of his novels. Books: Antidoti
umani ? (Human Antidotes) ? short-listed for the Urania Mondadori 2004
Award, deals with human augmentation & sensorial prosthetis. e-Doll ?
winner of the Urania Mondadori 2008 Award ? is about the relationship
between Maya, a moscow teenager, and Angel, an highly sofisticated
replicant  who is employed in the business of sex. The novel talks
about the birth of consciousness and analyses aspects of human
sexuality.

TransVision 2010 is a global transhumanist conference and community
convention, organized by several transhumanist activists, groups and
organizations, under the executive leadership of the Italian
Transhumanist Association (AIT) and with the collaboration of an
Advisory Board. The event will take place on October 22, 23 and 24,
2010 in Milan, Italy with many options for remote online access.

Register now

to take advantage of our special early Bird rates, post links to
Twitter, your blogs and websites, and add your name to the TransVision
2010 Facebook page.



From bbenzai at yahoo.com  Mon Jul 19 17:43:49 2010
From: bbenzai at yahoo.com (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2010 10:43:49 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] atheists de-baptize unbelievers
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1279540802.7004.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <407447.82054.qm@web114419.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

Mike Dougherty <msd001 at gmail.com> asked: 
> 
> ps: "What else floats on water?"
> 

Uhhh, very small stones? A duck? ...

:>

Ben Zaiboc




      




From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Mon Jul 19 22:30:12 2010
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2010 15:30:12 -0700
Subject: [ExI] New IP thread
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimUezfBnP0DjEACxXWeCF32W4SeChi-ag47usSd@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTikZbK59Ih7sL03Hascx_9AXPbueZWjS3_SBK3pZ@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimUezfBnP0DjEACxXWeCF32W4SeChi-ag47usSd@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimEWdytBk-3dZUbP509w5yaDiQK6rL-UxOUAugx@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jul 19, 2010 at 1:17 AM, Ryan Rawson <ryanobjc at gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm not really sure I buy the analogy in the PS - memory protections
> and private thoughts are really not the same as "IP" which is
> information people wish to make public and shared with others.

### I did not draw an analogy between memory protection and IP. You
may review that I suggested this exercise as a way of improving one's
understanding of the relationship between some engineering principles
(applicable to both operating systems and legal systems) and their
effects on efficiency. Instead of offering opinions about analogies to
IP, I invite you to answer which approach to memory protection is
efficient, as measured by the likelihood of achieving goals inherent
in the software or human entities under consideration. This exercise
is useful in beginning a deliberation which eventually may lead you a
dispassionate analysis of IP law.
--------------------------------
>
> I also think it's an supposition that strong IP leads to more
> efficient outcomes. Efficient comes in various flavors too, since an
> efficient economy might not have creative solutions and innovations -
> does the iPod belong in an efficient economy?

### The general meaning of efficiency is the degree of achievement of
goals, given available resources. Your paragraph above seems to be
bereft of meaning in our context.

------------------------------
>
> Strong IP has become a threat to those who make things happen and
> encourages IP trolls which are a pretty sick twisted outcome of the
> current system (and would be more prevalent in stronger IP regimes).
> Besides which, no new invention really comes out of thin air, and it
> can be a minefield for independent creators to be in the business of
> IP creation. ?Be it copyright claims, patent threats, or just vague
> legal threats, creation ends up being a big-company thing only.
>

### You did not go through the exercise of thinking about efficiency
in simple systems. It appears you are providing verbal justifications
for an emotionally held position, invoking mythical creatures, such as
trolls. I can assure you from my own experience that mainly thanks to
IP it is possible to generate innovation in a small company. Do lay
out an analysis from deeper principles, starting with efficiency in
simple systems, while trying to lay aside your feelings.

FYI, I used to oppose IP but once I started looking at the issue as a
strictly engineering problem involving societal efficiency over long
periods of time (rather than personal annoyance at being prevented
from pirating movies), I changed my mind - and my feelings followed.

Rafal



From ryanobjc at gmail.com  Tue Jul 20 00:03:05 2010
From: ryanobjc at gmail.com (Ryan Rawson)
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2010 17:03:05 -0700
Subject: [ExI] New IP thread
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimEWdytBk-3dZUbP509w5yaDiQK6rL-UxOUAugx@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTikZbK59Ih7sL03Hascx_9AXPbueZWjS3_SBK3pZ@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimUezfBnP0DjEACxXWeCF32W4SeChi-ag47usSd@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimEWdytBk-3dZUbP509w5yaDiQK6rL-UxOUAugx@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimw_eEIQnEf7vpt9T0loR_oi1y1rTFR-nGT7wwK@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jul 19, 2010 at 3:30 PM, Rafal Smigrodzki
<rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 19, 2010 at 1:17 AM, Ryan Rawson <ryanobjc at gmail.com> wrote:
>> I'm not really sure I buy the analogy in the PS - memory protections
>> and private thoughts are really not the same as "IP" which is
>> information people wish to make public and shared with others.
>
> ### I did not draw an analogy between memory protection and IP. You
> may review that I suggested this exercise as a way of improving one's
> understanding of the relationship between some engineering principles
> (applicable to both operating systems and legal systems) and their
> effects on efficiency. Instead of offering opinions about analogies to
> IP, I invite you to answer which approach to memory protection is
> efficient, as measured by the likelihood of achieving goals inherent
> in the software or human entities under consideration. This exercise
> is useful in beginning a deliberation which eventually may lead you a
> dispassionate analysis of IP law.
> --------------------------------
>>
>> I also think it's an supposition that strong IP leads to more
>> efficient outcomes. Efficient comes in various flavors too, since an
>> efficient economy might not have creative solutions and innovations -
>> does the iPod belong in an efficient economy?
>
> ### The general meaning of efficiency is the degree of achievement of
> goals, given available resources. Your paragraph above seems to be
> bereft of meaning in our context.

But what are the goals?  You have one set of goals, maybe I have
another? Which are valid? Your position is that strong IP may create
efficient outcomes (whatever "outcomes" means), but I am saying that
while strong IP may create YOUR desirable outcomes, I say that overly
strong IP causes loss of efficiency in other areas, not to mention
absurd outcomes like patent "trolls" and weird lawsuits and takedowns
of children's birthday videos.  These are not mythical outcomes, they
are very real and happen on a daily basis in the US and other
countries.

>
> ------------------------------
>>
>> Strong IP has become a threat to those who make things happen and
>> encourages IP trolls which are a pretty sick twisted outcome of the
>> current system (and would be more prevalent in stronger IP regimes).
>> Besides which, no new invention really comes out of thin air, and it
>> can be a minefield for independent creators to be in the business of
>> IP creation. ?Be it copyright claims, patent threats, or just vague
>> legal threats, creation ends up being a big-company thing only.
>>
>
> ### You did not go through the exercise of thinking about efficiency
> in simple systems. It appears you are providing verbal justifications
> for an emotionally held position, invoking mythical creatures, such as
> trolls. I can assure you from my own experience that mainly thanks to
> IP it is possible to generate innovation in a small company. Do lay
> out an analysis from deeper principles, starting with efficiency in
> simple systems, while trying to lay aside your feelings.

Ignoring your insults, I would claim that getting a casual
lay-understanding of a simple system does not help in fully analyzing
complex systems. In engineering areas perhaps understanding basic
mechanical principles leads to greater understanding, but complex
socio-economic interactions challenge simple approaches - after all
micro and macro economics are not taught together and use different
principles to achieve their understandings.

>
> FYI, I used to oppose IP but once I started looking at the issue as a
> strictly engineering problem involving societal efficiency over long
> periods of time (rather than personal annoyance at being prevented
> from pirating movies), I changed my mind - and my feelings followed.

Well I'm glad you've come to a place of understanding with your piracy
tendencies, but I was really talking about things like software
patents on obvious things, over-reaching copyright (which originally
was a balancing deal) and remix rights.  Never forget that patents and
copyrights are NOT natural rights, and the government gives those
rights to individuals (and companies) and takes on the enforcement
arbitration in return for something.  That being the timely return of
inventions, books, movies, etc to the public domain so that future
generations can take the works of "the greats" and build on it.



>
> Rafal
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>



From jonkc at bellsouth.net  Tue Jul 20 04:43:03 2010
From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John Clark)
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 00:43:03 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Sarah Palin
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinMOeppInXSvLOh2Kw04imYwoTGfTeW1r0zxAoY@mail.gmail.com>
References: <001101cb26d1$670285b0$ad753644@sx28047db9d36c>
	<AANLkTimlb_CXNUbRSjND1n2GDFvEgL8QgYEt-WVzaz6T@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinMOeppInXSvLOh2Kw04imYwoTGfTeW1r0zxAoY@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A1F6F7A2-6D30-4BCB-A14C-057F6608C8C9@bellsouth.net>

Although it embarrasses me to admit it, I actually find myself agreeing with Sarah Palin on something. She said building a Mosque right next to Ground Zero in New York was a "unnecessary provocation". I never thought I'd say this but I think she's correct; well,... I guess even a stopped clock is right twice a day and it is a bit rude to build a monument glorifying the very same fascist organization responsible for the 911 terror attacks on the same ground where the World Trade Center once stood before it was destroyed by a moronic religious philosophy. If they want to celebrate that evil moronic philosophy I think another place, any other place, might be more appropriate. It would be like building a Neo-Nazi headquarters in the middle of Auschwitz. It's bad taste and just isn't polite.  

  John K Clark 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100720/f0d32f1a/attachment.html>

From rpicone at gmail.com  Tue Jul 20 06:55:40 2010
From: rpicone at gmail.com (Robert Picone)
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2010 23:55:40 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Sarah Palin
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikeBt1Dpv_4GCOnkDtLg1vk_aOW-tuf4-ejrKMA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <001101cb26d1$670285b0$ad753644@sx28047db9d36c>
	<AANLkTimlb_CXNUbRSjND1n2GDFvEgL8QgYEt-WVzaz6T@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinMOeppInXSvLOh2Kw04imYwoTGfTeW1r0zxAoY@mail.gmail.com>
	<A1F6F7A2-6D30-4BCB-A14C-057F6608C8C9@bellsouth.net>
	<AANLkTikeBt1Dpv_4GCOnkDtLg1vk_aOW-tuf4-ejrKMA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinUnDQr1vqbeAbGiAfzHAQSLXHcrB6Qgez6QtRs@mail.gmail.com>

Previous message was sent blank, my apologies.  Anyway, no, not the same
fascists, these particular fascists had been in the area, blocks away, the
entire time, they have the support of the community, and represent a group
that while it has a dillusion or two in common with a handful of murderers,
aren't said murderers and don't support them in any way.  It's like a group
of people who couldn't get into art school renting
an apartment near Auschwitz.

If the locals support it, who is anyone to tell them what they can't have in
their community?  Also:  Seems like a bit of an odd topic for this list.

On Mon, Jul 19, 2010 at 11:50 PM, Robert Picone <rpicone at gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> 2010/7/19 John Clark <jonkc at bellsouth.net>
>
>> Although it embarrasses me to admit it, I actually find myself agreeing
>> with Sarah Palin on something. She said building a Mosque right next to
>> Ground Zero in New York was a "unnecessary provocation". I never thought I'd
>> say this but I think she's correct; well,... I guess even a stopped clock is
>> right twice a day and it is a bit rude to build a monument glorifying the
>> very same fascist organization responsible for the 911 terror attacks on the
>> same ground where the World Trade Center once stood before it was destroyed
>> by a moronic religious philosophy. If they want to celebrate that evil
>> moronic philosophy I think another place, any other place, might be more
>> appropriate. It would be like building a Neo-Nazi headquarters in the middle
>> of Auschwitz. It's bad taste and just isn't polite.
>> *
>> *
>>   John K Clark
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
>>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100719/877acea0/attachment.html>

From rpicone at gmail.com  Tue Jul 20 06:50:18 2010
From: rpicone at gmail.com (Robert Picone)
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2010 23:50:18 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Sarah Palin
In-Reply-To: <A1F6F7A2-6D30-4BCB-A14C-057F6608C8C9@bellsouth.net>
References: <001101cb26d1$670285b0$ad753644@sx28047db9d36c>
	<AANLkTimlb_CXNUbRSjND1n2GDFvEgL8QgYEt-WVzaz6T@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinMOeppInXSvLOh2Kw04imYwoTGfTeW1r0zxAoY@mail.gmail.com>
	<A1F6F7A2-6D30-4BCB-A14C-057F6608C8C9@bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikeBt1Dpv_4GCOnkDtLg1vk_aOW-tuf4-ejrKMA@mail.gmail.com>

2010/7/19 John Clark <jonkc at bellsouth.net>

> Although it embarrasses me to admit it, I actually find myself agreeing
> with Sarah Palin on something. She said building a Mosque right next to
> Ground Zero in New York was a "unnecessary provocation". I never thought I'd
> say this but I think she's correct; well,... I guess even a stopped clock is
> right twice a day and it is a bit rude to build a monument glorifying the
> very same fascist organization responsible for the 911 terror attacks on the
> same ground where the World Trade Center once stood before it was destroyed
> by a moronic religious philosophy. If they want to celebrate that evil
> moronic philosophy I think another place, any other place, might be more
> appropriate. It would be like building a Neo-Nazi headquarters in the middle
> of Auschwitz. It's bad taste and just isn't polite.
> *
> *
>   John K Clark
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100719/79faed8a/attachment.html>

From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Tue Jul 20 09:23:35 2010
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 05:23:35 -0400
Subject: [ExI] New IP thread
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimw_eEIQnEf7vpt9T0loR_oi1y1rTFR-nGT7wwK@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTikZbK59Ih7sL03Hascx_9AXPbueZWjS3_SBK3pZ@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimUezfBnP0DjEACxXWeCF32W4SeChi-ag47usSd@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimEWdytBk-3dZUbP509w5yaDiQK6rL-UxOUAugx@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimw_eEIQnEf7vpt9T0loR_oi1y1rTFR-nGT7wwK@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikplrmihs6DP6pqIyjW5KswM9OTQH1ys_CvZYm5@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jul 19, 2010 at 8:03 PM, Ryan Rawson <ryanobjc at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> ### The general meaning of efficiency is the degree of achievement of
>> goals, given available resources. Your paragraph above seems to be
>> bereft of meaning in our context.
>
> But what are the goals? ?You have one set of goals, maybe I have
> another? Which are valid? Your position is that strong IP may create
> efficient outcomes (whatever "outcomes" means), but I am saying that
> while strong IP may create YOUR desirable outcomes, I say that overly
> strong IP causes loss of efficiency in other areas, not to mention
> absurd outcomes like patent "trolls" and weird lawsuits and takedowns
> of children's birthday videos. ?These are not mythical outcomes, they
> are very real and happen on a daily basis in the US and other
> countries.
>
### The notion of efficiency does not pertain to the content of goals,
only to the degree to which they are satisfied. You may want to peruse
some of the common definitions of efficiency as used in economics. It
is not a part of our discussion (yet) to make normative statements
about the relative validity of goals espoused by diverse entities. To
understand our daily life, you first need to take many inferential
steps away from it, so as to return where you started with your eyes
wide open. At the elementary level we are on, simple exercises devoid
of emotional content are needed first, before tackling potentially
confusing issues.

I notice you persist in using emotional imagery. "Takedowns of
children's birthday videos" - what could be a better way to sabotage a
rational mind? I never progressed beyond superficialities until I
engaged in analytical exercises untainted by emotions. Neither will
you.

------------------------------
> Ignoring your insults, I would claim that getting a casual
> lay-understanding of a simple system does not help in fully analyzing
> complex systems. In engineering areas perhaps understanding basic
> mechanical principles leads to greater understanding, but complex
> socio-economic interactions challenge simple approaches - after all
> micro and macro economics are not taught together and use different
> principles to achieve their understandings.

### Are you saying you can understand complex systems without first
being able to analyze simple analogues? That you feel empowered to
make insightful statements about the real world without first taking
it apart in your mind?

-------------------------

> Well I'm glad you've come to a place of understanding with your piracy
> tendencies, but I was really talking about things like software
> patents on obvious things, over-reaching copyright (which originally
> was a balancing deal) and remix rights. ?Never forget that patents and
> copyrights are NOT natural rights, and the government gives those
> rights to individuals (and companies) and takes on the enforcement
> arbitration in return for something. ?That being the timely return of
> inventions, books, movies, etc to the public domain so that future
> generations can take the works of "the greats" and build on it.
>
### I do not recognize "natural rights" as a useful category. Rights
are efficient, or not, and that is what matters.

If a "thing" is obvious, it cannot be legally patented. If there is a
patent on an obvious invention, the patent itself goes against IP law.
In a previous post you explicitly came out against "strong IP" (which
I assume pertains to what I postulated in the initial post of this
thread), now you claim you are against patents that violate current
patent law, and some peripheral issues like copyright and remix
rights.

What is it then that you oppose?

Rafal

PS. Let me restate my postulates: In order to achieve maximum
efficiency, all thoughts should enjoy very high levels of protection
against unauthorized intrusions, such as overwriting, editing, and
copying. This also pertains to agreements between entities, which are
overt expressions of thoughts, and are binding on the entities. Based
on my analyses of both simple models and observations of actual
societies, a pluralist society which protects each individual's
thoughts is likely to be able to generate more numerous, diverse and
useful ideas, compared to societies that do not afford such
protections to thoughts. Current IP law is a partial embodiment of
this notion, despite being limited by technological and other
deficiencies.

By a high level of protection I mean, among others, unlimited in time
protection from any unauthorized copying whatsoever, with legal
recourse available to extract both restorative and punitive damages.
Obviously, such damages cannot be imposed on independent reinvention.

Is this what you are against?



From stathisp at gmail.com  Tue Jul 20 10:21:38 2010
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 20:21:38 +1000
Subject: [ExI] atheists de-baptize unbelievers:
In-Reply-To: <COL112-W9F4BEBE694BAC4CE96BFF9DBE0@phx.gbl>
References: <201007172220.o6HMKY7a002861@andromeda.ziaspace.com> 
	<AANLkTinQVytaEJmvcYiUCBLXtvfsuzQu0vv84ADOtChO@mail.gmail.com> 
	<4C4258EB.9080107@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTinh3oNzBI-7KM3tGOGywoE4h61aNoZTu9CXYg02@mail.gmail.com> 
	<AANLkTil-0pKUHH5ZoU9zmi6GZEX4fD3cY-GJQhMJJGwQ@mail.gmail.com> 
	<AANLkTilh4S3AVxmn1KGumnUk0L87-Qmix-R7HpF4IosJ@mail.gmail.com> 
	<AANLkTik-7y9OMWu0fRclqhsAgQGykS7hjCneYXXiZgp7@mail.gmail.com> 
	<COL112-W9F4BEBE694BAC4CE96BFF9DBE0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikT6wepwOta2bzqafXIfo1mGOqJFsXIhv93meNO@mail.gmail.com>

2010/7/19 darren shawn greer <dgreer_68 at hotmail.com>

> Well said. I've been wanting to say something similar myself, and have been a bit troubled by the amount of space spent on-line by fellow atheists?ridiculing and making fun of the beliefs of others. I'm not a believer, but my parents are. They are devout Christians, with a quiet, simple?faith. It has been a great stabilizer in their lives and has made them, as far as I'm concerned, happier, more balanced and productive?people than they were before they believed. Because they respect my meta-physical/philosophical position as an atheist, I have been forced to respect theirs. I have learned over the years that to paint all Christians (Moslems, Parsis, Jains,?Hindu's, Buddhists, whatever) with the same brush--judging them by the worst or most fanatic followers --is as misleading as saying all men are murderers because some do occasionally take lives.

They're not all bad but they're still wrong. Truth is not a matter of
utility: if the belief in a flat Earth could be shown to have a
calming, positive influence on the life of the believer it is no less
a false belief for that. The flat-earthers are generally harmless folk
and perhaps we should leave them alone, but if they had vast amounts
of money and influence and went about successfully turning people to
their view they should be vigorously opposed.


--
Stathis Papaioannou



From bbenzai at yahoo.com  Tue Jul 20 13:57:13 2010
From: bbenzai at yahoo.com (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 06:57:13 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] atheists de-baptize unbelievers
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1279627202.7715.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <82296.32719.qm@web114417.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

Richard Litzkow <rlitzkow at gmail.com> wrote:

> 
> I don't even think that this;
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/jan/06/religion-atheism
> is
> going too far either.


You "don't even" think this is going too far?

Do you think it's the even tiniest bit extreme?  A wee bit aggressive?

I thought you were linking to an article that maybe said something that was actually abrasive, like a claim that all religious people were stupider than all atheists, or one of Pat Condell's excellent rants.  The atheist bus campaign is about the gentlest most unoffensive thing you could have. It's hardly an example of something that's on the edge of going 'too far'.

Ben Zaiboc



      




From jonkc at bellsouth.net  Tue Jul 20 15:28:51 2010
From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John Clark)
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 11:28:51 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Sarah Palin
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinUnDQr1vqbeAbGiAfzHAQSLXHcrB6Qgez6QtRs@mail.gmail.com>
References: <001101cb26d1$670285b0$ad753644@sx28047db9d36c>
	<AANLkTimlb_CXNUbRSjND1n2GDFvEgL8QgYEt-WVzaz6T@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinMOeppInXSvLOh2Kw04imYwoTGfTeW1r0zxAoY@mail.gmail.com>
	<A1F6F7A2-6D30-4BCB-A14C-057F6608C8C9@bellsouth.net>
	<AANLkTikeBt1Dpv_4GCOnkDtLg1vk_aOW-tuf4-ejrKMA@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinUnDQr1vqbeAbGiAfzHAQSLXHcrB6Qgez6QtRs@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <857DEF8A-76A6-45A4-BD19-7334CC451681@bellsouth.net>

On Jul 20, 2010, at 2:55 AM, Robert Picone wrote:

>  no, not the same fascists

Yes, the exact same fascists who nearly universally agree that it's a good thing to murder someone who writes a novel or draws a cartoon they don't like. The same fascists who degrade women and preach holy war. The same fascists who told people the lie, and actually convinced them of it, that if they killed themselves and committed mass murder in the process they would get to live for eternity in a place that sounds like Santa Claus's workshop. The same fascists who have demonstrated hyper sensitivity against the slightest criticism of their repugnant philosophy but claim to be baffled anyone would be upset at building, just yards from the hole in the ground that was once the World Trade Center, a 13 story 100 million dollar tax free monstrosity that they want to open on September 11 2011. 

> they have the support of the community

They certainly have the support of the Islamic community and of spineless politically correct leaders of government that are so terrified of being called racist that they are willing to sanction evil. 

>  and represent a group that while it has a dillusion or two in common with a handful of murderers

Except for that Mrs. Lincoln how did you like the play? 

> aren't said murderers and don't support them in any way.

Not supported in any way? I guess that's why on September 12 2001 huge demonstrations spontaneously broke out all over the Islamic world condemning the hijackers. Oh wait that didn't happen. 

>  Also:  Seems like a bit of an odd topic for this list.

Apparently you haven't been reading Extropians for long.

  John K Clark

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100720/a2ef5407/attachment.html>

From dan_ust at yahoo.com  Tue Jul 20 15:49:47 2010
From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan)
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 08:49:47 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] atheists de-baptize unbelievers
In-Reply-To: <82296.32719.qm@web114417.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <82296.32719.qm@web114417.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <776391.5517.qm@web30101.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Yeah, Christians and other religious people regularly do far more bombastic 
things. Some whacky atheists adopt a similar approach and they've gone too far?!

Also, I often get asked by religious people why not just leave this alone -- be 
an atheist and be silent. (And, for the most part, I am. I don't often bring up 
this subject -- save online.) They don't seem to care, though, about the 
continuing bombardent of religious messages -- from people knocking on my door 
on Sundays and handing out pamphlets to the various public displays... Of 
course, any public display of atheism gets a reaction.

Regards,

Dan


----- Original Message ----
From: Ben Zaiboc <bbenzai at yahoo.com>
To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
Sent: Tue, July 20, 2010 9:57:13 AM
Subject: Re: [ExI] atheists de-baptize unbelievers

Richard Litzkow <rlitzkow at gmail.com> wrote:

> 
> I don't even think that this;
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/jan/06/religion-atheism
> is
> going too far either.


You "don't even" think this is going too far?

Do you think it's the even tiniest bit extreme?? A wee bit aggressive?

I thought you were linking to an article that maybe said something that was 
actually abrasive, like a claim that all religious people were stupider than all 
atheists, or one of Pat Condell's excellent rants.? The atheist bus campaign is 
about the gentlest most unoffensive thing you could have. It's hardly an example 
of something that's on the edge of going 'too far'.

Ben Zaiboc


      



From dan_ust at yahoo.com  Tue Jul 20 16:00:15 2010
From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan)
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 09:00:15 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] IP vs. a free society/was Re:  medical marijuana
In-Reply-To: <20100719054928.GA2644@ofb.net>
References: <5D4D1827DC354859B3F1650FA9B7C985@spike>
	<COL112-W6351FDE8E15239A820296E9DBB0@phx.gbl>
	<AANLkTilaPu-jMS4DMPY8ZuN6h13IMIzS8LLFJEBFeJ_l@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100719054928.GA2644@ofb.net>
Message-ID: <894901.99789.qm@web30103.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Agreed.

Also, it isn't whether you own it or not. That's the question at issue with IP: 
whether it is indeed owned.

Finally, IP as it exists now, isn't just about someone copying what someone else 
has done. It's also about preventing others from independently doing the same 
things. For instance, you invent some new product and get it patented. Imagine 
someone else, with no knowledge of your product, comes up with the same thing -- 
"same" from the perspective of current?law. While that person didn't copy your 
work, she will most likely?be prevented from selling that product.

Regards,

Dan

----- Original Message ----
From: Damien Sullivan <phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu>
To: rafal at smigrodzki.org; ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Mon, July 19, 2010 1:49:28 AM
Subject: Re: [ExI] medical marijuana

On Sun, Jul 18, 2010 at 02:12:48PM -0400, Rafal Smigrodzki wrote:

>? ? A socially progressive solution would be of course to have unlimited
>? ? duration of universally binding patent protection on all new drugs,
>? ? without any price restrictions imposed by illegitimate third parties
>? ? (governments). In this way inventors would have the incentive and the

No governments, no patents.

Takes the power of a government to tell me I can't copy a book I own, or
imitate a machine or drug I saw in public.

-xx- Damien X-) 
_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat



      



From colin.dodson at gmail.com  Tue Jul 20 13:05:07 2010
From: colin.dodson at gmail.com (Colin D)
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 08:05:07 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Was  medical marijuana. On Insurance
Message-ID: <AANLkTilbl95wp6ENI5O8MgKt8gyc183Cr8OprNsPTasU@mail.gmail.com>

>Grrrr.  That just ended the entire art of "insurance" and will eventually
end private insurance leaving only government players.  >Which was likely
the idea.

>How did the land of freedom fall so far that we allow government to tell us
what to do and to tell insurers who to insure and at what >rates?
May I be so egalitarian as to suggest that perhaps the so-called 'free
market' isn't the best solution for all problems, and that just maybe
everyone who wants it deserves suitable and appropriate health-care,
regardless of their material wealth? With the idea in mind that human lives
are priceless, the notion of health insurance in the first place is a
ridiculous and inhumane proposition. In a time when such resources were
truly scarce, it made sense, but in today's world, very few real resources
are anywhere near scarcity-it is simply an invented problem.  To be
perfectly honest, your attitude as an extropian (but apparently not
transhumanist? ((as transhumanism is rooted in humanism)) ) deeply disturbs
me.  How are we to advance as a species or community or civilization or
whatever you'd like to call it if we are not willing to collectively take on
the cost of all of our most basic physical well-being?

>I am also very concerned what will likely happen to medical R&D and
advanced treatments in this country.
I suppose it is recent research that more money doesn't always lead to the
greatest productivity or progress. As it turns out, paying someone more than
a certain amount to do a job will not make them do it any better at all.
What works better is to pay them enough that money is no longer an issue
(may I be so bold as to suggest that a great many more problems would be
eased or solved by making money a non-issue...) and provide them with
autonomy and choice in their work.


  Yours etc.,
    Colin D


On Sat, Jul 17, 2010 at 7:29 AM, Stefano Vaj <stefano.vaj at gmail.com> wrote:

> 2010/7/12 Gregory Jones <spike66 at att.net>
> > Ja agreed, but smoking a plant may be the cheapest way to administer any
> drug.
>
> Really? What about ingestion?
>
> Chewing tobacco would seem to me simpler and cheaper than smoking it.
>
> Not to mention all one has to do before getting smokable freebase cocaine.
>
> --
> Stefano Vaj
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100720/46bf0629/attachment.html>

From wingcat at pacbell.net  Tue Jul 20 16:38:58 2010
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 09:38:58 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Sarah Palin
In-Reply-To: <857DEF8A-76A6-45A4-BD19-7334CC451681@bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <836301.82801.qm@web81605.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

--- On Tue, 7/20/10, John Clark <jonkc at bellsouth.net> wrote:
On Jul 20, 2010, at 2:55 AM, Robert Picone wrote:
?no, not the same fascistsYes, the exact same fascists who nearly universally agree that it's a good thing to murder someone who writes a novel or draws a cartoon they don't like.
The facts say otherwise.

These particular Muslims, who intend to put the mosque there, have demonstrated
through their words and actions (for instance, refusing to participate in the WTC
demonstration celebrations) that they do not agree with the above, nor with the jihad
against the western world that other Muslims are doing.? They could do (a lot) more
to dissociate themselves from and condemn those who do support it (a problem that
many in the Islamic world have), but there is a difference between "do nothing for or
against" and "actively support".? Hard as it may be to believe, there exist people
who are both Muslim and pro-USA.? These particular Muslims lie within that group.

In any case, I believe that this thread is both off-topic for and harmful to this list,
and should be ended immediately.? Do the list mods agree?
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100720/0478c27c/attachment.html>

From ryanobjc at gmail.com  Tue Jul 20 09:32:55 2010
From: ryanobjc at gmail.com (Ryan Rawson)
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 02:32:55 -0700
Subject: [ExI] New IP thread
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikplrmihs6DP6pqIyjW5KswM9OTQH1ys_CvZYm5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTikZbK59Ih7sL03Hascx_9AXPbueZWjS3_SBK3pZ@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimUezfBnP0DjEACxXWeCF32W4SeChi-ag47usSd@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimEWdytBk-3dZUbP509w5yaDiQK6rL-UxOUAugx@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimw_eEIQnEf7vpt9T0loR_oi1y1rTFR-nGT7wwK@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikplrmihs6DP6pqIyjW5KswM9OTQH1ys_CvZYm5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikP83zGsweOoQEajxa2cPsR4lkxencW-lqkIGzh@mail.gmail.com>

Yes I am against what you are arguing for. Ultimately its unrealistic
anyways.... if I read your words I have copied them into my neural net where
they will continue to live on and affect future output of mine.... have I
just made an unauthorized derivative work by criticing your emails? Will you
seek to sue me and repossess portions of my brain? Or have them erased
perhaps?

On Jul 20, 2010 2:24 AM, "Rafal Smigrodzki" <rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com>
wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 19, 2010 at 8:03 PM, Ryan Rawson <ryanobjc at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> ### The general meaning of efficiency is the degree of achievement of
>>> goals, given available resources. Your paragraph above seems to be
>>> bereft of meaning in our context.
>>
>> But what are the goals?  You have one set of goals, maybe I have
>> another? Which are valid? Your position is that strong IP may create
>> efficient outcomes (whatever "outcomes" means), but I am saying that
>> while strong IP may create YOUR desirable outcomes, I say that overly
>> strong IP causes loss of efficiency in other areas, not to mention
>> absurd outcomes like patent "trolls" and weird lawsuits and takedowns
>> of children's birthday videos.  These are not mythical outcomes, they
>> are very real and happen on a daily basis in the US and other
>> countries.
>>
> ### The notion of efficiency does not pertain to the content of goals,
> only to the degree to which they are satisfied. You may want to peruse
> some of the common definitions of efficiency as used in economics. It
> is not a part of our discussion (yet) to make normative statements
> about the relative validity of goals espoused by diverse entities. To
> understand our daily life, you first need to take many inferential
> steps away from it, so as to return where you started with your eyes
> wide open. At the elementary level we are on, simple exercises devoid
> of emotional content are needed first, before tackling potentially
> confusing issues.
>
> I notice you persist in using emotional imagery. "Takedowns of
> children's birthday videos" - what could be a better way to sabotage a
> rational mind? I never progressed beyond superficialities until I
> engaged in analytical exercises untainted by emotions. Neither will
> you.
>
> ------------------------------
>> Ignoring your insults, I would claim that getting a casual
>> lay-understanding of a simple system does not help in fully analyzing
>> complex systems. In engineering areas perhaps understanding basic
>> mechanical principles leads to greater understanding, but complex
>> socio-economic interactions challenge simple approaches - after all
>> micro and macro economics are not taught together and use different
>> principles to achieve their understandings.
>
> ### Are you saying you can understand complex systems without first
> being able to analyze simple analogues? That you feel empowered to
> make insightful statements about the real world without first taking
> it apart in your mind?
>
> -------------------------
>
>> Well I'm glad you've come to a place of understanding with your piracy
>> tendencies, but I was really talking about things like software
>> patents on obvious things, over-reaching copyright (which originally
>> was a balancing deal) and remix rights.  Never forget that patents and
>> copyrights are NOT natural rights, and the government gives those
>> rights to individuals (and companies) and takes on the enforcement
>> arbitration in return for something.  That being the timely return of
>> inventions, books, movies, etc to the public domain so that future
>> generations can take the works of "the greats" and build on it.
>>
> ### I do not recognize "natural rights" as a useful category. Rights
> are efficient, or not, and that is what matters.
>
> If a "thing" is obvious, it cannot be legally patented. If there is a
> patent on an obvious invention, the patent itself goes against IP law.
> In a previous post you explicitly came out against "strong IP" (which
> I assume pertains to what I postulated in the initial post of this
> thread), now you claim you are against patents that violate current
> patent law, and some peripheral issues like copyright and remix
> rights.
>
> What is it then that you oppose?
>
> Rafal
>
> PS. Let me restate my postulates: In order to achieve maximum
> efficiency, all thoughts should enjoy very high levels of protection
> against unauthorized intrusions, such as overwriting, editing, and
> copying. This also pertains to agreements between entities, which are
> overt expressions of thoughts, and are binding on the entities. Based
> on my analyses of both simple models and observations of actual
> societies, a pluralist society which protects each individual's
> thoughts is likely to be able to generate more numerous, diverse and
> useful ideas, compared to societies that do not afford such
> protections to thoughts. Current IP law is a partial embodiment of
> this notion, despite being limited by technological and other
> deficiencies.
>
> By a high level of protection I mean, among others, unlimited in time
> protection from any unauthorized copying whatsoever, with legal
> recourse available to extract both restorative and punitive damages.
> Obviously, such damages cannot be imposed on independent reinvention.
>
> Is this what you are against?
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100720/18d475dc/attachment.html>

From dgreer_68 at hotmail.com  Tue Jul 20 15:39:47 2010
From: dgreer_68 at hotmail.com (darren shawn greer)
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 11:39:47 -0400
Subject: [ExI] atheists de-baptize unbelievers:
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikT6wepwOta2bzqafXIfo1mGOqJFsXIhv93meNO@mail.gmail.com>
References: <201007172220.o6HMKY7a002861@andromeda.ziaspace.com>,
	<AANLkTinQVytaEJmvcYiUCBLXtvfsuzQu0vv84ADOtChO@mail.gmail.com>,
	<4C4258EB.9080107@satx.rr.com>,
	<AANLkTinh3oNzBI-7KM3tGOGywoE4h61aNoZTu9CXYg02@mail.gmail.com>,
	<AANLkTil-0pKUHH5ZoU9zmi6GZEX4fD3cY-GJQhMJJGwQ@mail.gmail.com>,
	<AANLkTilh4S3AVxmn1KGumnUk0L87-Qmix-R7HpF4IosJ@mail.gmail.com>,
	<AANLkTik-7y9OMWu0fRclqhsAgQGykS7hjCneYXXiZgp7@mail.gmail.com>,
	<COL112-W9F4BEBE694BAC4CE96BFF9DBE0@phx.gbl>,
	<AANLkTikT6wepwOta2bzqafXIfo1mGOqJFsXIhv93meNO@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <COL112-W18E70924E6137DF8D688AB9DA00@phx.gbl>


>They're not all bad but they're still wrong. Truth is not a matter of
>utility: if the belief in a flat Earth could be shown to have a
>calming, positive influence on the life of the believer it is no less
>a false belief for that. The flat-earthers are generally harmless folk
>and perhaps we should leave them alone, but if they had vast amounts
>of money and influence and went about successfully turning people to
>their view they should be vigorously opposed.


 
 

If it were a matter of something as concrete as a flat earth, then you simply show a picture of a round earth and there ends your argument. Any further discussion of flat earth is simply delusion. But it's unfortunately not a matter of the physical universe. There is neither anything in the universe that points to the necessity of a creator, nor anything that absolutely precludes one. As Huston Smith says, "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence."  Einstein was a believer in a God, because the laws he uncovered were so immutable and precise he could not imagine a process of physical creation without one. Was Einstein deluded? Perhaps. He still contributed greatly to modern science, as I doubt anyone here will argue. I wonder how much of our "opposition" is based on cultural bias; much time is spent on Christians and Moslems and hardly anyone targets Judaism. Yet some Zionist groups accept money and support from evangelical Christians who believe the Jews need to re-take the Temple Mount in order for Armageddon to get underway. The Likud party uses religion to promote its re-settlement agenda. Extreme Zionists followed Mandela around during his travels after being released from prison to naysay him at public talks and even threatened his life. Buddhists often force their children to follow the faith against their will in Asian countries. The Aum Shinrikyo, who poisoned the Tokyo subway with serin gas--killing hundreds and sickening thousands--were a Buddhist cult. Hindus assassinated Gandhi. I wouldn?t mind the anti-religious sentiment so much if it were a little less focused on specific religions; a lot of it seems to be emotive and cultural in nature and simply hides behind the guise of logic and reason. Religionists are fighting a losing battle anyway. Dawkins stopped debating them in public because it gave the fanatics an air of respectability he felt they didn't deserve. When we stop questioning the beliefs, and start simply dealing with the behavior, we have a better claim to open-mindedness ourselves. I expect that some will say that the way to change behaviour is to change beliefs.  Almost any psychologist, addictions counselor or parent will tell you it's the other way around.

 
 

 

> From: stathisp at gmail.com
> Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 20:21:38 +1000
> To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> Subject: Re: [ExI] atheists de-baptize unbelievers:
> 
> 2010/7/19 darren shawn greer <dgreer_68 at hotmail.com>
> 
> > Well said. I've been wanting to say something similar myself, and have been a bit troubled by the amount of space spent on-line by fellow atheists ridiculing and making fun of the beliefs of others. I'm not a believer, but my parents are. They are devout Christians, with a quiet, simple faith. It has been a great stabilizer in their lives and has made them, as far as I'm concerned, happier, more balanced and productive people than they were before they believed. Because they respect my meta-physical/philosophical position as an atheist, I have been forced to respect theirs. I have learned over the years that to paint all Christians (Moslems, Parsis, Jains, Hindu's, Buddhists, whatever) with the same brush--judging them by the worst or most fanatic followers --is as misleading as saying all men are murderers because some do occasionally take lives.
> 
> They're not all bad but they're still wrong. Truth is not a matter of
> utility: if the belief in a flat Earth could be shown to have a
> calming, positive influence on the life of the believer it is no less
> a false belief for that. The flat-earthers are generally harmless folk
> and perhaps we should leave them alone, but if they had vast amounts
> of money and influence and went about successfully turning people to
> their view they should be vigorously opposed.
> 
> 
> --
> Stathis Papaioannou
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

 		 	   		  
_________________________________________________________________
Turn down-time into play-time with Messenger games
http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9734385
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100720/826434e0/attachment.html>

From dgreer_68 at hotmail.com  Tue Jul 20 15:45:16 2010
From: dgreer_68 at hotmail.com (darren shawn greer)
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 11:45:16 -0400
Subject: [ExI] atheists de-baptize unbelievers
In-Reply-To: <82296.32719.qm@web114417.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.1.1279627202.7715.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>,
	<82296.32719.qm@web114417.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <COL112-W29E6023C6FE6AD9F4F80CD9DA00@phx.gbl>


>I thought you were linking to an article that maybe said something that was actually abrasive, like a claim >that all religious people were stupider than all atheists, or one of Pat Condell's excellent rants. The atheist >bus campaign is about the gentlest most unoffensive thing you could have. It's hardly an example of >something that's on the edge of going 'too far'.

 

 

 

I really think that if expressing your view point in a public campaign is going too far, then we're all in trouble. If they had said something like "Jesus was a man. You're all deluded. Now go home and spend your weekly tithe on liqour" I could see maybe a wee bit of public outcry. 

 

Darren



Per Ardua Ad Astra
For more info on author Darren Greer visit 
http://darrenshawngreer.blogspot.com
 


 

> Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 06:57:13 -0700
> From: bbenzai at yahoo.com
> To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> Subject: Re: [ExI] atheists de-baptize unbelievers
> 
> Richard Litzkow <rlitzkow at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > 
> > I don't even think that this;
> > http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/jan/06/religion-atheism
> > is
> > going too far either.
> 
> 
> You "don't even" think this is going too far?
> 
> Do you think it's the even tiniest bit extreme? A wee bit aggressive?
> 
> 
> 
> Ben Zaiboc
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

 		 	   		  
_________________________________________________________________
Game on: Challenge friends to great games on Messenger
http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9734387
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100720/3f27daf0/attachment.html>

From wingcat at pacbell.net  Tue Jul 20 16:48:46 2010
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 09:48:46 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] IP vs. a free society/was Re:  medical marijuana
In-Reply-To: <894901.99789.qm@web30103.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <304271.59544.qm@web81606.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

--- On Tue, 7/20/10, Dan <dan_ust at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Finally, IP as it exists now, isn't just about someone
> copying what someone else 
> has done. It's also about preventing others from
> independently doing the same 
> things. For instance, you invent some new product and get
> it patented. Imagine 
> someone else, with no knowledge of your product, comes up
> with the same thing -- 
> "same" from the perspective of current?law. While that
> person didn't copy your 
> work, she will most likely?be prevented from selling that
> product.

There may be a silver lining to that.  If person B refuses
to do any research and independently recreates person A's
work...has person B added any value, when they could have
simply looked up the patent database and copied person A's
work?  Sure, there is an issue of doing this a year or two
after - but what about 20 or 30 years?  I've seen
independent reinventions of things that old, spending
months or years to do what could have been accomplished
with a simple patent search.  I would not be surprised if
the same problem existed when patents were invented.



From pharos at gmail.com  Tue Jul 20 16:33:12 2010
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 17:33:12 +0100
Subject: [ExI] atheists de-baptize unbelievers
In-Reply-To: <776391.5517.qm@web30101.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <82296.32719.qm@web114417.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<776391.5517.qm@web30101.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikE2hYj5lpirAXw8Z7-Ze5trlnHLMy7hAnZlH6q@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jul 20, 2010 at 4:49 PM, Dan  wrote:
> Yeah, Christians and other religious people regularly do far more bombastic
> things. Some whacky atheists adopt a similar approach and they've gone too far?!
>
> Also, I often get asked by religious people why not just leave this alone -- be
> an atheist and be silent. (And, for the most part, I am. I don't often bring up
> this subject -- save online.) They don't seem to care, though, about the
> continuing bombardent of religious messages -- from people knocking on my door
> on Sundays and handing out pamphlets to the various public displays... Of
> course, any public display of atheism gets a reaction.
>
>


That's comparing apples and oranges.  Their holy book *orders* them to
go and spread the word and get more followers. (And another holy book
orders them to kill unbelievers, so you're lucky if they just knock on
your door).

Atheists don't have a supreme being ordering them to spread the word.
They are just being annoying because it's fun.


BillK


From dan_ust at yahoo.com  Tue Jul 20 17:51:56 2010
From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan)
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 10:51:56 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] atheists de-baptize unbelievers
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikE2hYj5lpirAXw8Z7-Ze5trlnHLMy7hAnZlH6q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <82296.32719.qm@web114417.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<776391.5517.qm@web30101.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<AANLkTikE2hYj5lpirAXw8Z7-Ze5trlnHLMy7hAnZlH6q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <463455.76385.qm@web30104.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I don't think people who find in your face atheists annoying are really going by 
that logic -- no supreme being or sacred text condoning proselytizing others -- 
because they likely don't understand that point. Rather, I think it's a double 
standard. No doubt, they would feel the same way if Deists or Pagans started 
proselytizing. And, not that these people are all alike or part of the same 
group, but this reminds me of people who aren't against gays but just don't want 
them to kiss in public and hold hands, but seem unable to conceive how some 
might feel about straight couples doing the same. In other words, they're just 
used to one group doing something and not to another doing much the same thing.

(Also, the sacred books of all three Abrahamic faiths have textual support for 
killing those of differing views. But it seems, happily, 'scriptural 
determinism" isn't in play: most self-identified members of these faiths are not 
following those passages.)

Regards,

Dan


----- Original Message ----
From: BillK <pharos at gmail.com>
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Tue, July 20, 2010 12:33:12 PM
Subject: Re: [ExI] atheists de-baptize unbelievers

On Tue, Jul 20, 2010 at 4:49 PM, Dan? wrote:
> Yeah, Christians and other religious people regularly do far more bombastic
> things. Some whacky atheists adopt a similar approach and they've gone too 
>far?!
>
> Also, I often get asked by religious people why not just leave this alone -- 
be
> an atheist and be silent. (And, for the most part, I am. I don't often bring 
up
> this subject -- save online.) They don't seem to care, though, about the
> continuing bombardent of religious messages -- from people knocking on my door
> on Sundays and handing out pamphlets to the various public displays... Of
> course, any public display of atheism gets a reaction.

That's comparing apples and oranges.? Their holy book *orders* them to
go and spread the word and get more followers. (And another holy book
orders them to kill unbelievers, so you're lucky if they just knock on
your door).

Atheists don't have a supreme being ordering them to spread the word.
They are just being annoying because it's fun.

BillK
_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat



      



From spike66 at att.net  Tue Jul 20 18:20:50 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (Gregory Jones)
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 11:20:50 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Sarah Palin
In-Reply-To: <836301.82801.qm@web81605.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <627846.52724.qm@web81508.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



--- On Tue, 7/20/10, Adrian Tymes <wingcat at pacbell.net> wrote:







--- On Tue, 7/20/10, John Clark <jonkc at bellsouth.net> wrote:

On Jul 20, 2010, at 2:55 AM, Robert Picone wrote:



?no, not the same fascistsYes, the exact same fascists who nearly universally agree that it's a good thing to murder someone who writes a novel or draws a cartoon they don't like.


The facts say otherwise.

These particular [Methodists] ... who intend to put the [synagogue] ... there, have demonstrated
through their words and actions...In any case, I believe that this thread is both off-topic for and harmful to this list,
and should be ended immediately.? Do the list mods agree?

?
Point taken, although I have seen way worse than this on ExI-chat.? 
?
I would suggest, if?discussing a particular sect or religion, do avoid naming names, for this will enable key word searches, possibly?drawing unwanted attention to?the writer.? If one must, I would suggest using those known to be harmless, such as Quakers or Episcopalians.
?
spike
?
?
?
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100720/1aee1aee/attachment.html>

From dgreer_68 at hotmail.com  Tue Jul 20 18:05:17 2010
From: dgreer_68 at hotmail.com (darren shawn greer)
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 14:05:17 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Sarah Palin
In-Reply-To: <857DEF8A-76A6-45A4-BD19-7334CC451681@bellsouth.net>
References: <001101cb26d1$670285b0$ad753644@sx28047db9d36c>,
	<AANLkTimlb_CXNUbRSjND1n2GDFvEgL8QgYEt-WVzaz6T@mail.gmail.com>,
	<AANLkTinMOeppInXSvLOh2Kw04imYwoTGfTeW1r0zxAoY@mail.gmail.com>,
	<A1F6F7A2-6D30-4BCB-A14C-057F6608C8C9@bellsouth.net>,
	<AANLkTikeBt1Dpv_4GCOnkDtLg1vk_aOW-tuf4-ejrKMA@mail.gmail.com>,
	<AANLkTinUnDQr1vqbeAbGiAfzHAQSLXHcrB6Qgez6QtRs@mail.gmail.com>,
	<857DEF8A-76A6-45A4-BD19-7334CC451681@bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <COL112-W45058808E515A85BC44D2C9DA00@phx.gbl>


>Not supported in any way? I guess that's why on September 12 2001 huge demonstrations spontaneously >broke out all over the Islamic world condemning the hijackers. Oh wait that didn't happen. 

 

 

 

Just as a point of fact, I was in Harlem in October, 2001, the day after the anthrax was delivered to the NBC building (I was in the square itself the day before, and you couldn't find anyone but hotdog vendors and policemen there.) I stood behind a black woman on Martin Luther King Avenue whose exact words were--I will never forget them--"Terrorism? You wann talk terrorism? Look at what the whites have done to our people these last two hundred years!"

 

So you see, John, an atrocity to one cultural, political or national group may seem like a random political or war-sanctioned act, perhaps even a justice, to another group. Which is why that woman in Harlem or the members of the Arab world--which aren't all Muslims, btw--weren't protesting. I agree that wanting to erect a mosque near that sight shows a lack of forethought, empathy and even a degree of oafeshness. The trick is not pretending we all don't have cultural bias, it is being able to see it, recognize it and respect its power, even when we don't agree with it. 

 

The biggest example of out-right political and cultural bias in my books in the history of man-kind was pointed out by Alexander Solzhenitsyn. The Nazi holocaust killed 6 million. Solzhenitsyn estimated that the gulags, purges and the Ukranian wheat tax of '38 killed 22 million. Yet because Russia was an ally on the winning side of the war we didn't here about it fully until Solzhenitsyn started writing about it in the late sixties, for which he was expelled from Russia (and had he not been a nobel prize winner he probably would have been purged himself.) No matter how great the atrocity, there is always a geo-political spin. If human beings have a threshold for horror, we don't seem to have reached it. 



 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Per Ardua Ad Astra
For more info on author Darren Greer visit 
http://darrenshawngreer.blogspot.com
 


 



From: jonkc at bellsouth.net
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 11:28:51 -0400
To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
Subject: Re: [ExI] Sarah Palin



On Jul 20, 2010, at 2:55 AM, Robert Picone wrote:
 no, not the same fascists

Yes, the exact same fascists who nearly universally agree that it's a good thing to murder someone who writes a novel or draws a cartoon they don't like. The same fascists who degrade women and preach holy war. The same fascists who told people the lie, and actually convinced them of it, that if they killed themselves and committed mass murder in the process they would get to live for eternity in a place that sounds like Santa Claus's workshop. The same fascists who have demonstrated hyper sensitivity against the slightest criticism of their repugnant philosophy but claim to be baffled anyone would be upset at building, just yards from the hole in the ground that was once the World Trade Center, a 13 story 100 million dollar tax free monstrosity that they want to open on September 11 2011. 



they have the support of the community

They certainly have the support of the Islamic community and of spineless politically correct leaders of government that are so terrified of being called racist that they are willing to sanction evil. 



 and represent a group that while it has a dillusion or two in common with a handful of murderers


Except for that Mrs. Lincoln how did you like the play? 


aren't said murderers and don't support them in any way.


Not supported in any way? I guess that's why on September 12 2001 huge demonstrations spontaneously broke out all over the Islamic world condemning the hijackers. Oh wait that didn't happen. 


 Also:  Seems like a bit of an odd topic for this list.


Apparently you haven't been reading Extropians for long.


  John K Clark



 		 	   		  
_________________________________________________________________
MSN Dating: Find someone special. Start now.
http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9734384
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100720/c125fe30/attachment.html>

From thespike at satx.rr.com  Tue Jul 20 19:03:04 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 14:03:04 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Stupid
Message-ID: <4C45F2E8.2050203@satx.rr.com>

<http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2010/jul/20/councillor-inquiry-stupid-scientology-tweet>

20.7.10

Councillor faces inquiry over tweet calling Church of Scientology 'stupid'

A councillor is facing a disciplinary hearing after calling the Church 
of Scientology "stupid" on Twitter, it emerged today.
The Welsh public standards watchdog investigated Cardiff councillor John 
Dixon's short message and decided it was "likely" to have breached the 
code of conduct for local authority members.
News of the ombudsman's decision prompted a flood of messages of support 
on Twitter for Dixon, the council's executive member for health, social 
care and wellbeing.
Tweets included an offer to find a lawyer to fight his case pro bono and 
many others defending his right to free speech.
The case centres on a message posted by the Liberal Democrat councillor 
during a visit to London.
It said: "I didn't know the Scientologists had a church on Tottenham 
Court Road. Just hurried past in case the stupid rubs off."
The message was posted on an account called CllrJohnDixon. He has since 
set up a second account, JohnLDixon, for his "more personal musings", in 
which he describes himself as a "microbiologist and web developer, into 
science, rugby and web geekery".
By 3pm today, Dixon's number of followers on Twitter had trebled.
One supporter said: "Instead of a disciplinary hearing, they should 
canvas all the electorate to see if they agree with you. I think they 
just might."
Another wrote: "We're all behind you mate, if any disciplinary action 
goes ahead it will be because the stupid rubbed off on someone."
Dixon later tweeted: "Just seen all the retweets about my ombudsman's 
judgement. Um... Wow... Thanks."
A spokeswoman for the Public Services Ombudsman for Wales confirmed 
there had been an investigation into Dixon.
The investigation had found there was likely to have been a breach of 
the code of conduct local authority members must follow.
The ombudsman has referred the case to Cardiff council's standards and 
ethics committee, which will consider it in the autumn. It will have to 
decide if there has been a breach and, if it finds there has been, 
consider any sanctions.
A spokesman for the Church of Scientology said: "The complaint was made 
by an individual Scientologist who was personally offended by the comments."
The spokesman suggested people go to their website to find out about the 
church and its founder, L Ron Hubbard.
Dixon argued that the remarks were made in a personal capacity rather 
than as a councillor, and said his Twitter name was CllrJohnDixon only 
because JohnDixon had been taken.
He told the Guardian he was in London in June last year to buy a wedding 
ring for his wife-to-be ? which he also tweeted about. Other postings 
made at the time included remarks about visiting a relative in Richmond 
and going to a musical.
Dixon said he thought the remark about the Church of Scientology was 
"whimsical" and had thought nothing more about it until he began to 
suspect that members of the church were following him on Twitter.
He posted another message: "Just realised the Scientologists are 
following me. Quick everyone, pretend you're out."
But he said that, in December, the ombudsman received a complaint about 
the remarks. Councillors are obliged to carry out their duties with due 
regard to the principle that there should be equal opportunity to all, 
regardless of their religion.
Dixon said that even if he had been speaking in an official capacity ? 
which he maintains he was not ? he was surprised at the complaint going 
so far.
"As a Liberal Democrat, I'm used to having things said about me. You 
take it on the chin," he said.
He said he did not have very strong opinions on Scientologists before 
the saga. "Having done some research on them, I take a harder line now," 
he added.



From rpicone at gmail.com  Tue Jul 20 19:19:24 2010
From: rpicone at gmail.com (Robert Picone)
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 12:19:24 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Sarah Palin
In-Reply-To: <857DEF8A-76A6-45A4-BD19-7334CC451681@bellsouth.net>
References: <001101cb26d1$670285b0$ad753644@sx28047db9d36c>
	<AANLkTimlb_CXNUbRSjND1n2GDFvEgL8QgYEt-WVzaz6T@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinMOeppInXSvLOh2Kw04imYwoTGfTeW1r0zxAoY@mail.gmail.com>
	<A1F6F7A2-6D30-4BCB-A14C-057F6608C8C9@bellsouth.net>
	<AANLkTikeBt1Dpv_4GCOnkDtLg1vk_aOW-tuf4-ejrKMA@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinUnDQr1vqbeAbGiAfzHAQSLXHcrB6Qgez6QtRs@mail.gmail.com>
	<857DEF8A-76A6-45A4-BD19-7334CC451681@bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTil8zRMZh65j70Ue5M4EG-AvhbznrYryUbMEHipq@mail.gmail.com>

2010/7/20 John Clark <jonkc at bellsouth.net>

> On Jul 20, 2010, at 2:55 AM, Robert Picone wrote:
>
>  no, not the same fascists
>
>
> Yes, the exact same fascists who nearly universally agree that it's a good
> thing to murder someone who writes a novel or draws a cartoon they don't
> like. The same fascists who degrade women and preach holy war. The same
> fascists who told people the lie, and actually convinced them of it, that if
> they killed themselves and committed mass murder in the process they would
> get to live for eternity in a place that sounds like Santa Claus's workshop.
> The same fascists who have demonstrated hyper sensitivity against the
> slightest criticism of their repugnant philosophy but claim to be baffled
> anyone would be upset at building, just yards from the hole in the ground
> that was once the World Trade Center, a 13 story 100 million dollar tax free
> monstrosity that they want to open on September 11 2011.
>
>
Nope, without some rather extreme stretches of the truth, these aren't the
fascists you're looking for.


> they have the support of the community
>
>
> They certainly have the support of the Islamic community and of spineless
> politically correct leaders of government that are so terrified of being
> called racist that they are willing to sanction evil.
>
>
>
While that may be the case, I meant the community around the planned
building site, you know, the ones who will actually be effected by the
project, not the ones who regard an arbitrary 3-block radius they are
unlikely to ever visit in an American city as Christian holyland which can
hold Churches but not mosques (There's been a mosque about 4 blocks away for
a couple decades).

The community board responsible for the area unanimously voted for it, but
of course, you know better what should be in their neighborhood than them.

> aren't said murderers and don't support them in any way.
>
>
> Not supported in any way? I guess that's why on September 12 2001 huge
> demonstrations spontaneously broke out all over the Islamic world condemning
> the hijackers. Oh wait that didn't happen.
>
>
You know what?  The Amish also didn't break out in spontaneous large
demonstrations, neither did Novascotians or the Iroquois.  Clearly all three
parties were in cahoots with the hijackers.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100720/27e1e5df/attachment.html>

From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu  Tue Jul 20 19:24:51 2010
From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan)
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 12:24:51 -0700
Subject: [ExI] New IP thread
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikZbK59Ih7sL03Hascx_9AXPbueZWjS3_SBK3pZ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTikZbK59Ih7sL03Hascx_9AXPbueZWjS3_SBK3pZ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20100720192451.GA6646@ofb.net>

On Mon, Jul 19, 2010 at 03:56:25AM -0400, Rafal Smigrodzki wrote:

> I can only advise to try to approach the problem of IP not from a
> first-person perspective but to start with a comparative analysis of
> efficiency of various hypothetical laws, given a range of plausible

Efficiency at what?

IP laws encourage the creation of patentable and copyrightable items, so
are efficient at that.  But they introduce inefficiencies --
increasingly large inefficiencies -- in the use of ideas, including
derivation from old ideas.

> P.S. An interesting thought occurred to me - compare a society where
> all thoughts of every individual are open to control by other
> individuals (unless specifically protected from external control), vs.
> a society where all individual thoughts are protected from other
> individuals (unless specifically excluded from protection). Draw
> parallels with operating systems that allow any program to execute any
> operations on the code of another program, unless specifically
> proscribed, vs. systems that generally prevent programs from modifying
> each other, unless specifically allowed. Which operating system is
> more robust? This is a good starting point to thinking about the deep
> underpinnings of IP law.

No, this is comparing apples and rocks.  IP has nothing to do with the
protection of "all individual thoughts", especially not in a way
relevant to computer security.  A world without IP is a world where
public ideas can be copied freely, not a world where people can control
the thoughts in my brain.  We're takling about publication, not
telepathy and mind control.

-xx- Damien X-) 


From pharos at gmail.com  Tue Jul 20 19:25:34 2010
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 20:25:34 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Stupid
In-Reply-To: <4C45F2E8.2050203@satx.rr.com>
References: <4C45F2E8.2050203@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinjY0fluyNP_a5TppwTY5qZHlJBCD3davArhXYT@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/20/10, Damien Broderick wrote:
>  Councillor faces inquiry over tweet calling Church of Scientology 'stupid'
>
>  A councillor is facing a disciplinary hearing after calling the Church of
> Scientology "stupid" on Twitter, it emerged today.
>  The Welsh public standards watchdog investigated Cardiff councillor John
> Dixon's short message and decided it was "likely" to have breached the code
> of conduct for local authority members.

> in December, the ombudsman received a complaint about the
> remarks. Councillors are obliged to carry out their duties with due regard
> to the principle that there should be equal opportunity to all, regardless
> of their religion.
>


Perhaps these 'stupid' rule-book councillors should have checked to
see that $cientology is not recognised as a religion by the UK
government and its application for charity status was rejected.
(Wikipedia).

<http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/rorycellanjones/2010/07/twitter_and_scientology_dont_u.html>

Quote>
Prominent members of the Twitterati - a crowd which includes many who
are free-thinkers sceptical about religion in any form - started
retweeting Councillor Dixon's original remark. Very rapidly, the term
#stupidscientology became a trending topic on Twitter.


BillK


From jonkc at bellsouth.net  Tue Jul 20 19:27:28 2010
From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John Clark)
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 15:27:28 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Sarah Palin
In-Reply-To: <836301.82801.qm@web81605.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <836301.82801.qm@web81605.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <7D3FA483-682E-41CE-8A22-218AA697ED6C@bellsouth.net>

On Jul 20, 2010, at 12:38 PM, Adrian Tymes wrote:

> Hard as it may be to believe, there exist people who are both Muslim and pro-USA. 
> 
I don't care if they're pro-USA or not, I'm bothered because they're pro-stupidity and pro-evil.

> In any case, I believe that this thread is both off-topic for and harmful to this list,
> and should be ended immediately.  Do the list mods agree?


One can't help wondering why you didn't say that at the very beginning of your post. You said we should not talk about it anymore, but you only said that at the very end, after you had already made apologies for a murderous and medieval philosophy. And it's a sad day when you can't speak your mind even on the Extropian list for fear of retaliation from a fascist religion who gets its power from intimidation just like the Mafia. And at least the Mafia is not hypocritical, they don't claim to speak for God.  


  John K Clark







-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100720/5d1e4844/attachment.html>

From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu  Tue Jul 20 19:47:34 2010
From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan)
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 12:47:34 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Sarah Palin
In-Reply-To: <COL112-W45058808E515A85BC44D2C9DA00@phx.gbl>
References: <857DEF8A-76A6-45A4-BD19-7334CC451681@bellsouth.net>
	<COL112-W45058808E515A85BC44D2C9DA00@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <20100720194734.GA12737@ofb.net>

On Tue, Jul 20, 2010 at 02:05:17PM -0400, darren shawn greer wrote:

>    Solzhenitsyn. The Nazi holocaust killed 6 million.
>    Solzhenitsyn estimated that the gulags, purges and the Ukranian
>    wheat tax of '38 killed 22 million. Yet because Russia was an ally on

For the record, I'm used to the Holocaust having killed 11 million, 6
million of whom were Jews.  Looking at Wikipedia, I'm not sure what's
being counted to the concentration camps themselves, vs. the general
program of extermination -- if the difference matters.  Some estimates
of Nazi deliberate death toll are 17 million or even 21 million.  And it
would have been higher: they were out to wipe out the Slavs too.

-xx- Damien X-) 


From jonkc at bellsouth.net  Tue Jul 20 19:39:13 2010
From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John Clark)
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 15:39:13 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Sarah Palin
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTil8zRMZh65j70Ue5M4EG-AvhbznrYryUbMEHipq@mail.gmail.com>
References: <001101cb26d1$670285b0$ad753644@sx28047db9d36c>
	<AANLkTimlb_CXNUbRSjND1n2GDFvEgL8QgYEt-WVzaz6T@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinMOeppInXSvLOh2Kw04imYwoTGfTeW1r0zxAoY@mail.gmail.com>
	<A1F6F7A2-6D30-4BCB-A14C-057F6608C8C9@bellsouth.net>
	<AANLkTikeBt1Dpv_4GCOnkDtLg1vk_aOW-tuf4-ejrKMA@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinUnDQr1vqbeAbGiAfzHAQSLXHcrB6Qgez6QtRs@mail.gmail.com>
	<857DEF8A-76A6-45A4-BD19-7334CC451681@bellsouth.net>
	<AANLkTil8zRMZh65j70Ue5M4EG-AvhbznrYryUbMEHipq@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E5BECA1D-3550-4859-87A2-CDE4E55CC9C1@bellsouth.net>

On Jul 20, 2010, at 3:19 PM, Robert Picone wrote:

>> Not supported in any way? I guess that's why on September 12 2001 huge demonstrations spontaneously broke out all over the Islamic world condemning the hijackers. Oh wait that didn't happen. 
> 
> 
> You know what?  The Amish also didn't break out in spontaneous large demonstrations, neither did Novascotians or the Iroquois. 

If every one of the 19 hijackers who murdered nearly 3000 people on 911 were Italian I'll bet the very next day there would be huge demonstrations of italians showing how appalled they were, the same goes for Irish or Japanese or just about ethnic group you could think of, except for the Islamic.

  John K Clark 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100720/d90ba9b7/attachment.html>

From colin.dodson at gmail.com  Tue Jul 20 17:29:06 2010
From: colin.dodson at gmail.com (Colin D)
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 12:29:06 -0500
Subject: [ExI] medical marijuana
In-Reply-To: <20100719054928.GA2644@ofb.net>
References: <5D4D1827DC354859B3F1650FA9B7C985@spike>
	<COL112-W6351FDE8E15239A820296E9DBB0@phx.gbl>
	<AANLkTilaPu-jMS4DMPY8ZuN6h13IMIzS8LLFJEBFeJ_l@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100719054928.GA2644@ofb.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikehocKeaoWyVsXmI15OAb5yQ3tXpYGhUDJ4uIj@mail.gmail.com>

Rafal:

I think you overestimate the altruism of corporate bodies. If given the
opportunity for lifetime patents, I would venture that most companies
wouldn't give two damns about real effectiveness, but on perceived value.
Just the same, if they could get away with it, they wouldn't even care if
the drug killed the people who used it (except maybe for the profit loss).
As well, big business wouldn't run on and on with research when they can
just keep selling the same old same old at the same old ridiculously high
price. As I've referenced before, productivity and progress isn't mediated
strictly by money made on it, but rather by taking money out of the picture
(pay researchers enough that they're not thinking about the pay) and giving
researchers autonomy and the tools necessary to pursue said autonomy.

Yours etc.,
  Colin D

On Mon, Jul 19, 2010 at 12:49 AM, Damien Sullivan
<phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu>wrote:

> On Sun, Jul 18, 2010 at 02:12:48PM -0400, Rafal Smigrodzki wrote:
>
> >    A socially progressive solution would be of course to have unlimited
> >    duration of universally binding patent protection on all new drugs,
> >    without any price restrictions imposed by illegitimate third parties
> >    (governments). In this way inventors would have the incentive and the
>
> No governments, no patents.
>
> Takes the power of a government to tell me I can't copy a book I own, or
> imitate a machine or drug I saw in public.
>
> -xx- Damien X-)
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100720/74110ce7/attachment.html>

From dreamaswemay at gmail.com  Tue Jul 20 16:55:27 2010
From: dreamaswemay at gmail.com (F. Crick)
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 09:55:27 -0700
Subject: [ExI] atheists de-baptize unbelievers
Message-ID: <AANLkTilpFo6aQkVkIkbxBHnaZZ47zM3-6sjjUiuoEYuM@mail.gmail.com>

Hi. I haven't introduced myself, yet, but eventually will, in a more
apropos thread. I'm not even sure if I'm using the email list
correctly, but if I'm not, I'm sure one of you fine people will be so
kind as to let me know.

On topic: it seems to me that agnosticism is a more realistic outlook.
To deny the existence of something that has, so far, been impossible
to prove or disprove seems just as foolish as to *assume* the
existence of a particular *kind* of that something that may or may not
be there. Assumptions are the mothers of all mistakes, and religion is
the mother of all assumptions, since it seeks to define conditions
after death.

In my opinion, it seems more logical to admit the lack of
understanding, and seek to rectify that deficit - not to say either
'we're right' or 'they're wrong'.


Sean


On 7/20/10, extropy-chat-request at lists.extropy.org
<extropy-chat-request at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> Send extropy-chat mailing list submissions to
> 	extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> 	http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> 	extropy-chat-request at lists.extropy.org
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> 	extropy-chat-owner at lists.extropy.org
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of extropy-chat digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Re: atheists de-baptize unbelievers: (darren shawn greer)
>    2. Re: atheists de-baptize unbelievers: (darren shawn greer)
>    3. Re: atheists de-baptize unbelievers: (Richard Litzkow)
>    4. Re: New IP thread (Ryan Rawson)
>    5. TransVision 2010: New confirmed speakers (Giulio Prisco)
>    6. Re: atheists de-baptize unbelievers (Ben Zaiboc)
>    7. Re: New IP thread (Rafal Smigrodzki)
>    8. Re: New IP thread (Ryan Rawson)
>    9. Sarah Palin (John Clark)
>   10. Re: Sarah Palin (Robert Picone)
>   11. Re: Sarah Palin (Robert Picone)
>   12. Re: New IP thread (Rafal Smigrodzki)
>   13. Re: atheists de-baptize unbelievers: (Stathis Papaioannou)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2010 22:13:51 -0400
> From: darren shawn greer <dgreer_68 at hotmail.com>
> To: <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Subject: Re: [ExI] atheists de-baptize unbelievers:
> Message-ID: <COL112-W65B849486339F1493A9AB19DBE0 at phx.gbl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
>
>   Hey, I'm about to leave for a dance party (I don't get out much)! I'm
>> wondering about the ratio of virtous vrs. un-virtuous women who will
>> be there...
>
>
>
> If you find too many virtous ones, you can always tell them that Aristotle
> claimed that over-regulating desire through excessive virtue was a character
> flaw. Not sure if that'll get you anywhere but an odd look or a slap. Last
> resort maybe. Have fun.
>
>
>
> Darrern
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Per Ardua Ad Astra
> For more info on author Darren Greer visit
> http://darrenshawngreer.blogspot.com
>
>
>
>
>
>> Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2010 19:04:19 -0700
>> From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com
>> To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> Subject: Re: [ExI] atheists de-baptize unbelievers:
>>
>> Damien wrote:
>> Proxy de-baptizing is not meant as a means of denying anyone anything
>> real, including immortality once science perfects it. It instead helps
>> detach the virtuous from mind-warping foolishness and exploitation,
>> should the person *choose* to accept it.
>> >>
>>
>> Okay, Damien, you made your point as a card-carrying atheist who
>> chases me around with a sharpened Occam's razor! lol But the virtous
>> can come in many forms and from a multitude of groups.
>>
>> Hey, I'm about to leave for a dance party (I don't get out much)! I'm
>> wondering about the ratio of virtous vrs. un-virtuous women who will
>> be there...
>>
>> John : )
>>
>>
>> On 7/17/10, Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com> wrote:
>> > On 7/17/2010 7:46 PM, John Grigg wrote:
>> >
>> >> The Mormon proxy baptisms are not meant as a means of granting anyone
>> >> immortality. It instead gives membership into God's church and
>> >> kingdom, should the person on the other side*choose* to accept it.
>> >
>> > Proxy de-baptizing is not meant as a means of denying anyone anything
>> > real, including immortality once science perfects it. It instead helps
>> > detach the virtuous from mind-warping foolishness and exploitation,
>> > should the person *choose* to accept it.
>> >
>> > Damien Broderick
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > extropy-chat mailing list
>> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>> >
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>  		 	   		
> _________________________________________________________________
> Learn more ways to connect with your buddies now
> http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9734388
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL:
> <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100717/bed8652e/attachment-0001.html>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2010 10:02:55 -0400
> From: darren shawn greer <dgreer_68 at hotmail.com>
> To: <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Subject: Re: [ExI] atheists de-baptize unbelievers:
> Message-ID: <COL112-W9F4BEBE694BAC4CE96BFF9DBE0 at phx.gbl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
>
> Will, very poignantly said. I'm a believer who has friends on both
>> sides of the chasm. But on Facebook I have many atheist "friends
>> (friends of friends)" who talk about nothing but their loathing of
>> Christianity & apparently all religion in general. It is like these
>> people have "no lives" and quite simply don't talk about other things
>> (like family, work, school, popular culture) , except their
>> anti-religion obsession. And the degree of arrogance, outright
>> crudeness, and countless straw man arguments just astounds me! I used
>> to think hardcore Evangelical Christian fundamentalists took the cake
>> on this stuff, but I now give the nod to their obnoxious opposition.
>>
>
>
>
> Well said. I've been wanting to say something similar myself, and have been
> a bit troubled by the amount of space spent on-line by fellow atheists
> ridiculing and making fun of the beliefs of others. I'm not a believer, but
> my parents are. They are devout Christians, with a quiet, simple faith. It
> has been a great stabilizer in their lives and has made them, as far as I'm
> concerned, happier, more balanced and productive people than they were
> before they believed. Because they respect my meta-physical/philosophical
> position as an atheist, I have been forced to respect theirs. I have learned
> over the years that to paint all Christians (Moslems, Parsis, Jains,
> Hindu's, Buddhists, whatever) with the same brush--judging them by the worst
> or most fanatic followers --is as misleading as saying all men are murderers
> because some do occasionally take lives.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Per Ardua Ad Astra
> For more info on author Darren Greer visit
> http://darrenshawngreer.blogspot.com
>
>
>
>
>
>> Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2010 03:10:53 -0700
>> From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com
>> To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> Subject: Re: [ExI] atheists de-baptize unbelievers:
>>
>> Will Steinberg wrote:
>> Pretentious atheism ruins atheism. A smart, sensible atheist ignores
>> baptism, because it has zero meaning outside of its believers. Kagin
>> seems like he actually believes that children are wrongfully made to
>> become Christian when that drop of water touches their heads, and that
>> he has to undo the horror. Wouldn't it be more productive to
>> just...ignore the whole thing?
>>
>> I know smart people love to make belittling jokes, but sometimes too
>> much masturbating of the ego actually validates the other side. Every
>> "A for Atheist" shirt only pounds home the idea of Faith, Symbol,
>> Faith!
>> >>>
>>
>> Will, very poignantly said. I'm a believer who has friends on both
>> sides of the chasm. But on Facebook I have many atheist "friends
>> (friends of friends)" who talk about nothing but their loathing of
>> Christianity & apparently all religion in general. It is like these
>> people have "no lives" and quite simply don't talk about other things
>> (like family, work, school, popular culture) , except their
>> anti-religion obsession. And the degree of arrogance, outright
>> crudeness, and countless straw man arguments just astounds me! I used
>> to think hardcore Evangelical Christian fundamentalists took the cake
>> on this stuff, but I now give the nod to their obnoxious opposition.
>>
>> John
>>
>>
>> On 7/18/10, Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > Agree with Will.
>> >
>> > Everyone should be free to waste their time and energy as they please,
>> > provided they don't harm others. Myself, I would join a sport fan club
>> > rather than New Atheist fundamentalists.
>> >
>> > --
>> > Giulio Prisco
>> > giulio at gmail.com
>> > (39)3387219799
>> >
>> > On Jul 18, 2010 6:54 AM, "Will Steinberg" <steinberg.will at gmail.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> > Pretentious atheism ruins atheism. A smart, sensible atheist ignores
>> > baptism, because it has zero meaning outside of its believers. Kagin
>> > seems
>> > like he actually believes that children are wrongfully made to *become
>> > Christian* when that drop of water touches their heads, and that he has
>> > to
>> > undo the horror. Wouldn't it be more productive to just...ignore the
>> > whole
>> > thing?
>> >
>> > I know smart people love to make belittling jokes, but sometimes too
>> > much
>> > masturbating of the ego actually validates the other side. Every "A for
>> > Atheist" shirt only pounds home the idea of Faith, Symbol, Faith!
>> >
>> > I fear for atheism when its harbingers are empathy-less prats...
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > extropy-chat mailing list
>> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>> >
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>  		 	   		
> _________________________________________________________________
> Game on: Challenge friends to great games on Messenger
> http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9734387
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL:
> <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100718/5ec3cb38/attachment-0001.html>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2010 17:40:42 +1000
> From: Richard Litzkow <rlitzkow at gmail.com>
> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Subject: Re: [ExI] atheists de-baptize unbelievers:
> Message-ID:
> 	<AANLkTins8wRtfcfhXKaAweck03Bn_Ru1WKxMSZPNsHLx at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> 'What else floats on water' is a quote from Monty Python (Monty Python and
> the Holy Grail) from the Witch Hunting sketch.
> http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/mphg/mphg.htm
>
> As regards the original post; as long as the participants don't take their
> event seriously I think that a little mockery is only fair. We let religious
> blow hards make statements about how homosexuals, Jews and Muslims 'caused'
> Hurricane Katrina and the Indonesian tsunami, all without any trace of
> irony, then a group of atheists de-baptising people is all in good fun.
>
> I don't even think that this;
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/jan/06/religion-atheism is
> going too far either.
>
> - Richard Litzkow
> --
> "For what purpose humanity is there should not even concern us: why you are
> there, that you should ask yourself: and if you have no ready answer, then
> set yourself goals, high and noble goals, and perish in pursuit of them! I
> know of no better life purpose than to perish in attempting the great and
> the impossible..." Nietzsche
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL:
> <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100719/d956d796/attachment-0001.html>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2010 01:17:05 -0700
> From: Ryan Rawson <ryanobjc at gmail.com>
> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Subject: Re: [ExI] New IP thread
> Message-ID:
> 	<AANLkTimUezfBnP0DjEACxXWeCF32W4SeChi-ag47usSd at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> I'm not really sure I buy the analogy in the PS - memory protections
> and private thoughts are really not the same as "IP" which is
> information people wish to make public and shared with others.
>
> I also think it's an supposition that strong IP leads to more
> efficient outcomes. Efficient comes in various flavors too, since an
> efficient economy might not have creative solutions and innovations -
> does the iPod belong in an efficient economy?
>
> Strong IP has become a threat to those who make things happen and
> encourages IP trolls which are a pretty sick twisted outcome of the
> current system (and would be more prevalent in stronger IP regimes).
> Besides which, no new invention really comes out of thin air, and it
> can be a minefield for independent creators to be in the business of
> IP creation.  Be it copyright claims, patent threats, or just vague
> legal threats, creation ends up being a big-company thing only.
>
> I found Free Culture particularly enlightening - lessig has thought
> about this aspect fairly well I think.
>
> -ryan
>
> On Mon, Jul 19, 2010 at 12:56 AM, Rafal Smigrodzki
> <rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, Jul 19, 2010 at 1:49 AM, Damien Sullivan
>> <phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu> wrote:
>>> On Sun, Jul 18, 2010 at 02:12:48PM -0400, Rafal Smigrodzki wrote:
>>>
>>>> ? ?A socially progressive solution would be of course to have unlimited
>>>> ? ?duration of universally binding patent protection on all new drugs,
>>>> ? ?without any price restrictions imposed by illegitimate third parties
>>>> ? ?(governments). In this way inventors would have the incentive and the
>>>
>>> No governments, no patents.
>>>
>>> Takes the power of a government to tell me I can't copy a book I own, or
>>> imitate a machine or drug I saw in public.
>>
>> ### Define "government".
>>
>> The way I see it, it is possible to have effective IP laws without
>> government. In fact, any law content can be generated by
>> non-governmental methods, aside from laws that constitute the
>> government itself. It's a question of what a sufficient number of
>> people believe is right, not an issue of the methods/sources of
>> generating laws. Where there is a human desire, there is a way of
>> making it into law - and the desire to have strong IP protection may
>> lead to highly efficient outcomes, despite its current lack of
>> popularity.
>>
>> I can only advise to try to approach the problem of IP not from a
>> first-person perspective but to start with a comparative analysis of
>> efficiency of various hypothetical laws, given a range of plausible
>> assumptions about the properties of societies where these laws could
>> exist. From this exercise you might make guesses about the
>> laws (and supporting moral beliefs as well as technological
>> constraints) that are efficient, and therefore desirable. Once you
>> have that, ask what kind of legal methodology and what kind of social
>> organization would be needed to support such laws.
>>
>> I do believe that a pluralistic, non-governed society consisting of
>> entities still recognizably human would be capable of generating
>> strong IP protection, and that this would be highly efficient. For a
>> vision of a pluralistic society with extremely strong, privately
>> provided IP laws see John C. Wright's "Golden Age" series.
>>
>> Rafal
>>
>> P.S. An interesting thought occurred to me - compare a society where
>> all thoughts of every individual are open to control by other
>> individuals (unless specifically protected from external control), vs.
>> a society where all individual thoughts are protected from other
>> individuals (unless specifically excluded from protection). Draw
>> parallels with operating systems that allow any program to execute any
>> operations on the code of another program, unless specifically
>> proscribed, vs. systems that generally prevent programs from modifying
>> each other, unless specifically allowed. Which operating system is
>> more robust? This is a good starting point to thinking about the deep
>> underpinnings of IP law.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2010 18:15:13 +0200
> From: Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com>
> To: transvisioncc at googlegroups.com,
> 	euro-transhumanists at googlegroups.com,	ExI chat list
> 	<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>,	extrobritannia at yahoogroups.com,
> 	transfigurism at googlegroups.com,	cosmic-engineers at googlegroups.com,
> 	turingchurch at googlegroups.com
> Subject: [ExI] TransVision 2010: New confirmed speakers
> Message-ID:
> 	<AANLkTikq6KrgKPioLtn3nBkhNs4_DTMDuRz6shVduWgP at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
>
> TransVision 2010: New confirmed speakers
> http://transvision2010.wordpress.com/2010/07/19/transvision-2010-new-confirmed-speakers/
>
> The following speakers will give talks at TransVision 2010, which
> brings the number of confirmed speakers to 24. Other speakers will be
> announced in a few days.
>
> Roberto Guerra: writer and video poet. His published works include,
> among other writings, ?Marinetti e il Duemila? (in AA.VV. ?Divenire 3
> Futurismo? edited by AIT, 2009, Sestante Edizioni) and  ?Moana Lisa
> Cyberpunk? (Edizioni Diversa Sintonia, 2010). He participated in ?The
> Scientist International Videoart Festival? organized by Ferrara
> Video&Arte. In 2009 he organized, with Graziano Cecchini ?Futurismo
> 100 live?, dedicated to 100 years of Futurism. Since 2010 he is the
> coordinator of the Laboratory of Futurist Literature of AIT (Italian
> Transhumanist Association).
>
> Alex Lightman is the Executive Director of Humanity+ (formerly the
> World Transhumanist Association), author of over 800,000 words mainly
> about science, technology, science fiction, and the future including
> Brave New Unwired World: The Digital Big Bang and the Infinite
> Internet. He is a graduate of MIT and attended graduate school at MIT
> and Harvard. He completed Army Airborne paratrooper training, Navy
> Cold Weather Survival School, and over 25 road races including six
> marathons in the last 18 months. He got support from 40 countries for
> his government policy recommendations for IPv6.
>
> Marta Rossi graduated (B.A.) in Philosophy of Mind and Languages from
> San Raffaele University (Milan) with a dissertation on self-reference.
> She received her M.A. from the same institution with a final
> dissertation on the ontology of functionalism and its consequences in
> ethics and social theory. Her research are focused on mind-body
> relations, philosophical and scientific accounts of consciousness and
> the link between Singularity and social changes. Currently a Ph.D.
> Candidate in Philosophy and Cognitive Sciences, she has been working @
> iLabs since 2006, where she is Strategic Partnership Manager, leading
> the management of projects in ethics, social and political theory.
>
> Jacopo Tagliabue graduated (B.A.) in Philosophy of Mind and Languages
> from San Raffaele University (Milan) with a dissertation on formal
> ontology. He received his M.A. from the same institution with a final
> dissertation on scientific explanations in complex systems. He studied
> microeconomics, statistics and complexity theory in renowned
> international institutions (London School of Economics, New York
> University, Santa Fe Institute) and he is currently a Ph.D. Candidate
> in Philosophy and Cognitive Sciences. He has been working @ iLabs
> since 2006, where he is now Chief Scientist for Qualitative Modelling.
>
> Francesco Verso is an Italian SF writer (tough he defines his genre as
> ?future fiction? from a definition of Anthony Burgess for A Clockwork
> Orange). He follows transhumanism since many years because its themes
> are strictly connected to the ones of his novels. Books: Antidoti
> umani ? (Human Antidotes) ? short-listed for the Urania Mondadori 2004
> Award, deals with human augmentation & sensorial prosthetis. e-Doll ?
> winner of the Urania Mondadori 2008 Award ? is about the relationship
> between Maya, a moscow teenager, and Angel, an highly sofisticated
> replicant  who is employed in the business of sex. The novel talks
> about the birth of consciousness and analyses aspects of human
> sexuality.
>
> TransVision 2010 is a global transhumanist conference and community
> convention, organized by several transhumanist activists, groups and
> organizations, under the executive leadership of the Italian
> Transhumanist Association (AIT) and with the collaboration of an
> Advisory Board. The event will take place on October 22, 23 and 24,
> 2010 in Milan, Italy with many options for remote online access.
>
> Register now
>
> to take advantage of our special early Bird rates, post links to
> Twitter, your blogs and websites, and add your name to the TransVision
> 2010 Facebook page.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2010 10:43:49 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Ben Zaiboc <bbenzai at yahoo.com>
> To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> Subject: Re: [ExI] atheists de-baptize unbelievers
> Message-ID: <407447.82054.qm at web114419.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
> Mike Dougherty <msd001 at gmail.com> asked:
>>
>> ps: "What else floats on water?"
>>
>
> Uhhh, very small stones? A duck? ...
>
> :>
>
> Ben Zaiboc
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2010 15:30:12 -0700
> From: Rafal Smigrodzki <rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com>
> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Subject: Re: [ExI] New IP thread
> Message-ID:
> 	<AANLkTimEWdytBk-3dZUbP509w5yaDiQK6rL-UxOUAugx at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> On Mon, Jul 19, 2010 at 1:17 AM, Ryan Rawson <ryanobjc at gmail.com> wrote:
>> I'm not really sure I buy the analogy in the PS - memory protections
>> and private thoughts are really not the same as "IP" which is
>> information people wish to make public and shared with others.
>
> ### I did not draw an analogy between memory protection and IP. You
> may review that I suggested this exercise as a way of improving one's
> understanding of the relationship between some engineering principles
> (applicable to both operating systems and legal systems) and their
> effects on efficiency. Instead of offering opinions about analogies to
> IP, I invite you to answer which approach to memory protection is
> efficient, as measured by the likelihood of achieving goals inherent
> in the software or human entities under consideration. This exercise
> is useful in beginning a deliberation which eventually may lead you a
> dispassionate analysis of IP law.
> --------------------------------
>>
>> I also think it's an supposition that strong IP leads to more
>> efficient outcomes. Efficient comes in various flavors too, since an
>> efficient economy might not have creative solutions and innovations -
>> does the iPod belong in an efficient economy?
>
> ### The general meaning of efficiency is the degree of achievement of
> goals, given available resources. Your paragraph above seems to be
> bereft of meaning in our context.
>
> ------------------------------
>>
>> Strong IP has become a threat to those who make things happen and
>> encourages IP trolls which are a pretty sick twisted outcome of the
>> current system (and would be more prevalent in stronger IP regimes).
>> Besides which, no new invention really comes out of thin air, and it
>> can be a minefield for independent creators to be in the business of
>> IP creation. ?Be it copyright claims, patent threats, or just vague
>> legal threats, creation ends up being a big-company thing only.
>>
>
> ### You did not go through the exercise of thinking about efficiency
> in simple systems. It appears you are providing verbal justifications
> for an emotionally held position, invoking mythical creatures, such as
> trolls. I can assure you from my own experience that mainly thanks to
> IP it is possible to generate innovation in a small company. Do lay
> out an analysis from deeper principles, starting with efficiency in
> simple systems, while trying to lay aside your feelings.
>
> FYI, I used to oppose IP but once I started looking at the issue as a
> strictly engineering problem involving societal efficiency over long
> periods of time (rather than personal annoyance at being prevented
> from pirating movies), I changed my mind - and my feelings followed.
>
> Rafal
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2010 17:03:05 -0700
> From: Ryan Rawson <ryanobjc at gmail.com>
> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Subject: Re: [ExI] New IP thread
> Message-ID:
> 	<AANLkTimw_eEIQnEf7vpt9T0loR_oi1y1rTFR-nGT7wwK at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> On Mon, Jul 19, 2010 at 3:30 PM, Rafal Smigrodzki
> <rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, Jul 19, 2010 at 1:17 AM, Ryan Rawson <ryanobjc at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> I'm not really sure I buy the analogy in the PS - memory protections
>>> and private thoughts are really not the same as "IP" which is
>>> information people wish to make public and shared with others.
>>
>> ### I did not draw an analogy between memory protection and IP. You
>> may review that I suggested this exercise as a way of improving one's
>> understanding of the relationship between some engineering principles
>> (applicable to both operating systems and legal systems) and their
>> effects on efficiency. Instead of offering opinions about analogies to
>> IP, I invite you to answer which approach to memory protection is
>> efficient, as measured by the likelihood of achieving goals inherent
>> in the software or human entities under consideration. This exercise
>> is useful in beginning a deliberation which eventually may lead you a
>> dispassionate analysis of IP law.
>> --------------------------------
>>>
>>> I also think it's an supposition that strong IP leads to more
>>> efficient outcomes. Efficient comes in various flavors too, since an
>>> efficient economy might not have creative solutions and innovations -
>>> does the iPod belong in an efficient economy?
>>
>> ### The general meaning of efficiency is the degree of achievement of
>> goals, given available resources. Your paragraph above seems to be
>> bereft of meaning in our context.
>
> But what are the goals?  You have one set of goals, maybe I have
> another? Which are valid? Your position is that strong IP may create
> efficient outcomes (whatever "outcomes" means), but I am saying that
> while strong IP may create YOUR desirable outcomes, I say that overly
> strong IP causes loss of efficiency in other areas, not to mention
> absurd outcomes like patent "trolls" and weird lawsuits and takedowns
> of children's birthday videos.  These are not mythical outcomes, they
> are very real and happen on a daily basis in the US and other
> countries.
>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Strong IP has become a threat to those who make things happen and
>>> encourages IP trolls which are a pretty sick twisted outcome of the
>>> current system (and would be more prevalent in stronger IP regimes).
>>> Besides which, no new invention really comes out of thin air, and it
>>> can be a minefield for independent creators to be in the business of
>>> IP creation. ?Be it copyright claims, patent threats, or just vague
>>> legal threats, creation ends up being a big-company thing only.
>>>
>>
>> ### You did not go through the exercise of thinking about efficiency
>> in simple systems. It appears you are providing verbal justifications
>> for an emotionally held position, invoking mythical creatures, such as
>> trolls. I can assure you from my own experience that mainly thanks to
>> IP it is possible to generate innovation in a small company. Do lay
>> out an analysis from deeper principles, starting with efficiency in
>> simple systems, while trying to lay aside your feelings.
>
> Ignoring your insults, I would claim that getting a casual
> lay-understanding of a simple system does not help in fully analyzing
> complex systems. In engineering areas perhaps understanding basic
> mechanical principles leads to greater understanding, but complex
> socio-economic interactions challenge simple approaches - after all
> micro and macro economics are not taught together and use different
> principles to achieve their understandings.
>
>>
>> FYI, I used to oppose IP but once I started looking at the issue as a
>> strictly engineering problem involving societal efficiency over long
>> periods of time (rather than personal annoyance at being prevented
>> from pirating movies), I changed my mind - and my feelings followed.
>
> Well I'm glad you've come to a place of understanding with your piracy
> tendencies, but I was really talking about things like software
> patents on obvious things, over-reaching copyright (which originally
> was a balancing deal) and remix rights.  Never forget that patents and
> copyrights are NOT natural rights, and the government gives those
> rights to individuals (and companies) and takes on the enforcement
> arbitration in return for something.  That being the timely return of
> inventions, books, movies, etc to the public domain so that future
> generations can take the works of "the greats" and build on it.
>
>
>
>>
>> Rafal
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 00:43:03 -0400
> From: John Clark <jonkc at bellsouth.net>
> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Subject: [ExI] Sarah Palin
> Message-ID: <A1F6F7A2-6D30-4BCB-A14C-057F6608C8C9 at bellsouth.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Although it embarrasses me to admit it, I actually find myself agreeing with
> Sarah Palin on something. She said building a Mosque right next to Ground
> Zero in New York was a "unnecessary provocation". I never thought I'd say
> this but I think she's correct; well,... I guess even a stopped clock is
> right twice a day and it is a bit rude to build a monument glorifying the
> very same fascist organization responsible for the 911 terror attacks on the
> same ground where the World Trade Center once stood before it was destroyed
> by a moronic religious philosophy. If they want to celebrate that evil
> moronic philosophy I think another place, any other place, might be more
> appropriate. It would be like building a Neo-Nazi headquarters in the middle
> of Auschwitz. It's bad taste and just isn't polite.
>
>   John K Clark
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL:
> <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100720/f0d32f1a/attachment-0001.html>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 10
> Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2010 23:55:40 -0700
> From: Robert Picone <rpicone at gmail.com>
> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Subject: Re: [ExI] Sarah Palin
> Message-ID:
> 	<AANLkTinUnDQr1vqbeAbGiAfzHAQSLXHcrB6Qgez6QtRs at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Previous message was sent blank, my apologies.  Anyway, no, not the same
> fascists, these particular fascists had been in the area, blocks away, the
> entire time, they have the support of the community, and represent a group
> that while it has a dillusion or two in common with a handful of murderers,
> aren't said murderers and don't support them in any way.  It's like a group
> of people who couldn't get into art school renting
> an apartment near Auschwitz.
>
> If the locals support it, who is anyone to tell them what they can't have in
> their community?  Also:  Seems like a bit of an odd topic for this list.
>
> On Mon, Jul 19, 2010 at 11:50 PM, Robert Picone <rpicone at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> 2010/7/19 John Clark <jonkc at bellsouth.net>
>>
>>> Although it embarrasses me to admit it, I actually find myself agreeing
>>> with Sarah Palin on something. She said building a Mosque right next to
>>> Ground Zero in New York was a "unnecessary provocation". I never thought
>>> I'd
>>> say this but I think she's correct; well,... I guess even a stopped clock
>>> is
>>> right twice a day and it is a bit rude to build a monument glorifying the
>>> very same fascist organization responsible for the 911 terror attacks on
>>> the
>>> same ground where the World Trade Center once stood before it was
>>> destroyed
>>> by a moronic religious philosophy. If they want to celebrate that evil
>>> moronic philosophy I think another place, any other place, might be more
>>> appropriate. It would be like building a Neo-Nazi headquarters in the
>>> middle
>>> of Auschwitz. It's bad taste and just isn't polite.
>>> *
>>> *
>>>   John K Clark
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>
>>>
>>
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL:
> <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100719/877acea0/attachment-0001.html>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 11
> Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2010 23:50:18 -0700
> From: Robert Picone <rpicone at gmail.com>
> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Subject: Re: [ExI] Sarah Palin
> Message-ID:
> 	<AANLkTikeBt1Dpv_4GCOnkDtLg1vk_aOW-tuf4-ejrKMA at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> 2010/7/19 John Clark <jonkc at bellsouth.net>
>
>> Although it embarrasses me to admit it, I actually find myself agreeing
>> with Sarah Palin on something. She said building a Mosque right next to
>> Ground Zero in New York was a "unnecessary provocation". I never thought
>> I'd
>> say this but I think she's correct; well,... I guess even a stopped clock
>> is
>> right twice a day and it is a bit rude to build a monument glorifying the
>> very same fascist organization responsible for the 911 terror attacks on
>> the
>> same ground where the World Trade Center once stood before it was
>> destroyed
>> by a moronic religious philosophy. If they want to celebrate that evil
>> moronic philosophy I think another place, any other place, might be more
>> appropriate. It would be like building a Neo-Nazi headquarters in the
>> middle
>> of Auschwitz. It's bad taste and just isn't polite.
>> *
>> *
>>   John K Clark
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
>>
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL:
> <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100719/79faed8a/attachment-0001.html>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 12
> Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 05:23:35 -0400
> From: Rafal Smigrodzki <rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com>
> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Subject: Re: [ExI] New IP thread
> Message-ID:
> 	<AANLkTikplrmihs6DP6pqIyjW5KswM9OTQH1ys_CvZYm5 at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> On Mon, Jul 19, 2010 at 8:03 PM, Ryan Rawson <ryanobjc at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> ### The general meaning of efficiency is the degree of achievement of
>>> goals, given available resources. Your paragraph above seems to be
>>> bereft of meaning in our context.
>>
>> But what are the goals? ?You have one set of goals, maybe I have
>> another? Which are valid? Your position is that strong IP may create
>> efficient outcomes (whatever "outcomes" means), but I am saying that
>> while strong IP may create YOUR desirable outcomes, I say that overly
>> strong IP causes loss of efficiency in other areas, not to mention
>> absurd outcomes like patent "trolls" and weird lawsuits and takedowns
>> of children's birthday videos. ?These are not mythical outcomes, they
>> are very real and happen on a daily basis in the US and other
>> countries.
>>
> ### The notion of efficiency does not pertain to the content of goals,
> only to the degree to which they are satisfied. You may want to peruse
> some of the common definitions of efficiency as used in economics. It
> is not a part of our discussion (yet) to make normative statements
> about the relative validity of goals espoused by diverse entities. To
> understand our daily life, you first need to take many inferential
> steps away from it, so as to return where you started with your eyes
> wide open. At the elementary level we are on, simple exercises devoid
> of emotional content are needed first, before tackling potentially
> confusing issues.
>
> I notice you persist in using emotional imagery. "Takedowns of
> children's birthday videos" - what could be a better way to sabotage a
> rational mind? I never progressed beyond superficialities until I
> engaged in analytical exercises untainted by emotions. Neither will
> you.
>
> ------------------------------
>> Ignoring your insults, I would claim that getting a casual
>> lay-understanding of a simple system does not help in fully analyzing
>> complex systems. In engineering areas perhaps understanding basic
>> mechanical principles leads to greater understanding, but complex
>> socio-economic interactions challenge simple approaches - after all
>> micro and macro economics are not taught together and use different
>> principles to achieve their understandings.
>
> ### Are you saying you can understand complex systems without first
> being able to analyze simple analogues? That you feel empowered to
> make insightful statements about the real world without first taking
> it apart in your mind?
>
> -------------------------
>
>> Well I'm glad you've come to a place of understanding with your piracy
>> tendencies, but I was really talking about things like software
>> patents on obvious things, over-reaching copyright (which originally
>> was a balancing deal) and remix rights. ?Never forget that patents and
>> copyrights are NOT natural rights, and the government gives those
>> rights to individuals (and companies) and takes on the enforcement
>> arbitration in return for something. ?That being the timely return of
>> inventions, books, movies, etc to the public domain so that future
>> generations can take the works of "the greats" and build on it.
>>
> ### I do not recognize "natural rights" as a useful category. Rights
> are efficient, or not, and that is what matters.
>
> If a "thing" is obvious, it cannot be legally patented. If there is a
> patent on an obvious invention, the patent itself goes against IP law.
> In a previous post you explicitly came out against "strong IP" (which
> I assume pertains to what I postulated in the initial post of this
> thread), now you claim you are against patents that violate current
> patent law, and some peripheral issues like copyright and remix
> rights.
>
> What is it then that you oppose?
>
> Rafal
>
> PS. Let me restate my postulates: In order to achieve maximum
> efficiency, all thoughts should enjoy very high levels of protection
> against unauthorized intrusions, such as overwriting, editing, and
> copying. This also pertains to agreements between entities, which are
> overt expressions of thoughts, and are binding on the entities. Based
> on my analyses of both simple models and observations of actual
> societies, a pluralist society which protects each individual's
> thoughts is likely to be able to generate more numerous, diverse and
> useful ideas, compared to societies that do not afford such
> protections to thoughts. Current IP law is a partial embodiment of
> this notion, despite being limited by technological and other
> deficiencies.
>
> By a high level of protection I mean, among others, unlimited in time
> protection from any unauthorized copying whatsoever, with legal
> recourse available to extract both restorative and punitive damages.
> Obviously, such damages cannot be imposed on independent reinvention.
>
> Is this what you are against?
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 13
> Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 20:21:38 +1000
> From: Stathis Papaioannou <stathisp at gmail.com>
> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Subject: Re: [ExI] atheists de-baptize unbelievers:
> Message-ID:
> 	<AANLkTikT6wepwOta2bzqafXIfo1mGOqJFsXIhv93meNO at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> 2010/7/19 darren shawn greer <dgreer_68 at hotmail.com>
>
>> Well said. I've been wanting to say something similar myself, and have
>> been a bit troubled by the amount of space spent on-line by fellow
>> atheists?ridiculing and making fun of the beliefs of others. I'm not a
>> believer, but my parents are. They are devout Christians, with a quiet,
>> simple?faith. It has been a great stabilizer in their lives and has made
>> them, as far as I'm concerned, happier, more balanced and
>> productive?people than they were before they believed. Because they
>> respect my meta-physical/philosophical position as an atheist, I have been
>> forced to respect theirs. I have learned over the years that to paint all
>> Christians (Moslems, Parsis, Jains,?Hindu's, Buddhists, whatever) with the
>> same brush--judging them by the worst or most fanatic followers --is as
>> misleading as saying all men are murderers because some do occasionally
>> take lives.
>
> They're not all bad but they're still wrong. Truth is not a matter of
> utility: if the belief in a flat Earth could be shown to have a
> calming, positive influence on the life of the believer it is no less
> a false belief for that. The flat-earthers are generally harmless folk
> and perhaps we should leave them alone, but if they had vast amounts
> of money and influence and went about successfully turning people to
> their view they should be vigorously opposed.
>
>
> --
> Stathis Papaioannou
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
> End of extropy-chat Digest, Vol 82, Issue 31
> ********************************************
>


From rpicone at gmail.com  Tue Jul 20 21:03:32 2010
From: rpicone at gmail.com (Robert Picone)
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 14:03:32 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Sarah Palin
In-Reply-To: <E5BECA1D-3550-4859-87A2-CDE4E55CC9C1@bellsouth.net>
References: <001101cb26d1$670285b0$ad753644@sx28047db9d36c>
	<AANLkTimlb_CXNUbRSjND1n2GDFvEgL8QgYEt-WVzaz6T@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinMOeppInXSvLOh2Kw04imYwoTGfTeW1r0zxAoY@mail.gmail.com>
	<A1F6F7A2-6D30-4BCB-A14C-057F6608C8C9@bellsouth.net>
	<AANLkTikeBt1Dpv_4GCOnkDtLg1vk_aOW-tuf4-ejrKMA@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinUnDQr1vqbeAbGiAfzHAQSLXHcrB6Qgez6QtRs@mail.gmail.com>
	<857DEF8A-76A6-45A4-BD19-7334CC451681@bellsouth.net>
	<AANLkTil8zRMZh65j70Ue5M4EG-AvhbznrYryUbMEHipq@mail.gmail.com>
	<E5BECA1D-3550-4859-87A2-CDE4E55CC9C1@bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTim8vtxELpwhU8Y900RYowuRSjptkxdFaCTY0hzI@mail.gmail.com>

2010/7/20 John Clark <jonkc at bellsouth.net>

> On Jul 20, 2010, at 3:19 PM, Robert Picone wrote:
>
> Not supported in any way? I guess that's why on September 12 2001 huge
>> demonstrations spontaneously broke out all over the Islamic world condemning
>> the hijackers. Oh wait that didn't happen.
>>
>>
>> You know what?  The Amish also didn't break out in spontaneous large
> demonstrations, neither did Novascotians or the Iroquois.
>
>
> If every one of the 19 hijackers who murdered nearly 3000 people on 911
> were Italian I'll bet the very next day there would be huge demonstrations
> of italians showing how appalled they were, the same goes for Irish or
> Japanese or just about ethnic group you could think of, except for the
> Islamic.
>
>   John K Clark
>

I very much doubt that, people don't really feel the need to say that murder
is bad, it's a given.  I am not aware of the militia movement, gun owners,
Irish, Catholics, or New York Residents taking to the streets
for Oklahoma City, nor am I aware of any mathematicians, survivalists,
neoluddites,  anarchists, Pols, Chicago residents, anarchists, or hooded
sweatshirt aficionados gathering together to express their discontent with
the unabomber's motivation.

Let's for a moment pose the plausible enough scenario that a poster on this
list was a child molester.  Would it then be the duty of everyone on this
list to gather together, find TV cameras, and say that pedophilia is wrong?
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100720/284f9765/attachment.html>

From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Tue Jul 20 19:13:30 2010
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 12:13:30 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Sarah Palin
Message-ID: <AANLkTinDA62CsQAEl8Xwd7DXEHo5pVzQ2PFV0LYHdl7R@mail.gmail.com>

Re this thread

There are reasons rooted in human evolution for behavior of this sort
including  9/11, the US response and the political rise of people such
as Sarah Palin.

I have expounded on them enough.  Can someone else speak up?

Keith


From dan_ust at yahoo.com  Tue Jul 20 20:37:29 2010
From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan)
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 13:37:29 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] IP vs. a free society
In-Reply-To: <304271.59544.qm@web81606.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <304271.59544.qm@web81606.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <290774.98198.qm@web30107.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Value is subjective, but I imagine if B wants to make the product and can get 
customers, then she expects value from it.

Also, one can handle the problem of independent people expending effort here 
without a patent system. Someone could broadcast, "I'm working on X," and then 
others can decide whether it's a waste of their time to work on X. (And, surely, 
you're not going to suggest, as some fans of central planning do, that 
competition is wasteful?)

Regards,

Dan

----- Original Message ----
From: Adrian Tymes <wingcat at pacbell.net>
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Tue, July 20, 2010 12:48:46 PM
Subject: Re: [ExI] IP vs. a free society/was Re: medical marijuana

--- On Tue, 7/20/10, Dan <dan_ust at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Finally, IP as it exists now, isn't just about someone
> copying what someone else 
> has done. It's also about preventing others from
> independently doing the same 
> things. For instance, you invent some new product and get
> it patented. Imagine 
> someone else, with no knowledge of your product, comes up
> with the same thing -- 
> "same" from the perspective of current?law. While that
> person didn't copy your 
> work, she will most likely?be prevented from selling that
> product.

There may be a silver lining to that.? If person B refuses
to do any research and independently recreates person A's
work...has person B added any value, when they could have
simply looked up the patent database and copied person A's
work?? Sure, there is an issue of doing this a year or two
after - but what about 20 or 30 years?? I've seen
independent reinventions of things that old, spending
months or years to do what could have been accomplished
with a simple patent search.? I would not be surprised if
the same problem existed when patents were invented.

_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


      



From spike66 at att.net  Tue Jul 20 20:38:33 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (Gregory Jones)
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 13:38:33 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Stupid
In-Reply-To: <4C45F2E8.2050203@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <137572.59088.qm@web81507.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

--- On Tue, 7/20/10, Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com> wrote:

...

<http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2010/jul/20/councillor-inquiry-stupid-scientology-tweet>

>...Councillor faces inquiry over tweet calling Church of?Presbyterianology 'stupid'

>A councillor is facing a disciplinary hearing after calling the Church of >Episcopalianology "stupid" on Twitter, it emerged today... Damien
.
.
.
He is fortunate to not be living in the US.? He could be legally prosecuted for "interfering with a religion."? Sounds like an Onion spoof, but there really is a law, in the 21st century, in the United States of America, to that effect, I kid you not.? Evidence available on request.
?
spike
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100720/09e175ed/attachment.html>

From spike66 at att.net  Tue Jul 20 20:46:59 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (Gregory Jones)
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 13:46:59 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] sean's new thread:  was   atheists de-baptize unbelievers
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTilpFo6aQkVkIkbxBHnaZZ47zM3-6sjjUiuoEYuM@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <400933.17268.qm@web81501.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



--- On Tue, 7/20/10, F. Crick <dreamaswemay at gmail.com> wrote:
?
>Hi. I haven't introduced myself, yet, but eventually will, in a more
apropos thread...? Sean

?
Hi Sean, welcome, here's your apropos thread in which to introduce yourself.
?
spike
?
?
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100720/5de5fcbf/attachment.html>

From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Tue Jul 20 21:52:04 2010
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 14:52:04 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Sarah Palin
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinDA62CsQAEl8Xwd7DXEHo5pVzQ2PFV0LYHdl7R@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTinDA62CsQAEl8Xwd7DXEHo5pVzQ2PFV0LYHdl7R@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTiko4n3wRoVExxBOkuF6IsxDADV7F-0nesPWt7OP@mail.gmail.com>

 I must respectfully disagree. Islam itself (I would like to think)
did not carry out the 9-11 attack, but instead it was
radical/terrorist members of Islam.  I say let the Mosque be built
right next to Ground Zero, but have the CIA and FBI monitor the hell
out of it with both human and electronic surveillance measures.  And
so if a Muslim cleric starts preaching hate and terrorism from the
pulpit there he goes to jail!  But I do realize there are "gray areas"
in such a scenario and we might face long trials against such a man,
which lack the final verdict we might hope to get.

I still feel it all comes back to freedom of religion.  Ironically,
the more we fight these guys, the more we tend (unless very careful)
to become *like them.*  And I think they actually know that and relish
the fact.

John


On 7/20/10, Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> wrote:
> Re this thread
>
> There are reasons rooted in human evolution for behavior of this sort
> including  9/11, the US response and the political rise of people such
> as Sarah Palin.
>
> I have expounded on them enough.  Can someone else speak up?
>
> Keith
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>


From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Tue Jul 20 22:59:24 2010
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 15:59:24 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Sarah Palin
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinDA62CsQAEl8Xwd7DXEHo5pVzQ2PFV0LYHdl7R@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTinDA62CsQAEl8Xwd7DXEHo5pVzQ2PFV0LYHdl7R@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <145659.45529.qm@web65615.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

----- Original Message ----
> From: Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com>
> To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> Sent: Tue, July 20, 2010 12:13:30 PM
> Subject: Re: [ExI] Sarah Palin
> 
> Re this thread
> 
> There are reasons rooted in human evolution for behavior of this sort
> including? 9/11, the US response and the political rise of people such
> as Sarah Palin.
> 
> I have expounded on them enough.? Can someone else speak up?
> 
> Keith

There is probably something to your hypothesis, Keith. The odd thing however is 
that it has been?perverted from its evolutionary purpose of gaining the tribe 
resources to gaining a select few economic players the resources at the cost of 
the economic stability of the tribe as a whole. The tribe got suckered by the 
military/industrial/media complex into nearly breaking itself for the benefit of 
a few through the deliberate manipulation of EP. Which is probably why the media 
bends over backwards to avoid calling incidents like this terrorism:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/19/us/19crash.html

It just doesn't fit into the "swarthy threat from afar" xenophobic narrative 
necessary to justify a billion dollar a day war on the far side of the world. 
The sad thing is we can't stop, because only the winner can stop fighting a war. 
And we haven't won yet.


Stuart LaForge 

"For small creatures such as we the vastness is bearable only through 
love."-Carl Sagan 



      




From spike66 at att.net  Tue Jul 20 23:47:27 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 16:47:27 -0700
Subject: [ExI] getting things into perspective
Message-ID: <20E18A0EA17346FC88BC2CBCF3682916@spike>

 
Cool!  Check this.  I get soooo turned on just looking at these beauties:
 
http://www.planetary.org/blog/article/00002585/
 
spike
 
{8-]
 
 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100720/ae4415c8/attachment.html>

From spike66 at att.net  Wed Jul 21 00:24:03 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 17:24:03 -0700
Subject: [ExI] laser shoots down drone
Message-ID: <F702F47D44D9401C93B163025C269D2A@spike>

We have had lasers shooting down aircraft in sf for fifty years or more.
Now it is real:
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2hs9vmlEd-A
 
Is there any point in continuing to build expensive fighter planes?
 
spike
 
 
 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100720/a53ed878/attachment.html>

From jrd1415 at gmail.com  Tue Jul 20 23:44:40 2010
From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis)
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 16:44:40 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Sarah Palin
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTiko4n3wRoVExxBOkuF6IsxDADV7F-0nesPWt7OP@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTinDA62CsQAEl8Xwd7DXEHo5pVzQ2PFV0LYHdl7R@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTiko4n3wRoVExxBOkuF6IsxDADV7F-0nesPWt7OP@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikSD76Dq8B8cX9LCgFEBhdcNElee6C54bkufOtC@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jul 20, 2010 at 2:52 PM, John Grigg <possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com> wrote:

> ?I must respectfully disagree. Islam itself (I would like to think)
> did not carry out the 9-11 attack, but instead it was
> radical/terrorist members of Islam.

Yes, I agree, Mr. Grigg.

The last nine years have seen an intense and unrelenting -- and
clearly unwarranted -- broad-brush demonization of Islam.  I see Mr.
Clark's post as reflection of that larger trend, aimed at -- and
successfully so -- making Muslims the new boogie man.  A replacement
for the old Soviet Union.

Mr. Clark's view is further amplified by his contempt for religion in
general, a view I agree with, but choose not to dwell on overmuch.
For the record, Christianity, Hinduism, Islam, Judaism, and all the
rest, are just different flavors of the same atrocity-justifying
cultural identity memeset.  They ***ALL*** do the "Gott mit uns" crap,
as they litter the earth with corpses.

Keith would want it mentioned here, that from an EP point of view -- a
gene set and meme set point of view -- these little spasms of
population reduction are entirely constructive.  Limited resources
generates stress, which leads to grouchiness, which leads to wa,r
which reduces the population, which reduces the stress,  and thus
restores equilibrium and -- voila! -- peace (temporarily).

                             ************************************

MASSIVELY POLITICALLY INCORRECT COMMENT FOLLOWS, PROCEED AT YOUR OWN RISK!!!

All this talk of Muslim badness and murder and celebrating evil, etc,
bothers me.  It's so one-sided.  It's all cultural echo chamber and no
"other side of the story".   Mark Twain spoke to this problem of what
is at bottom the fruit of cultural bias:

"I have no special regard for Satan; but I can at least claim that I
have no prejudice against him. It may even be that I lean a little his
way, on account of his not having a fair show. All religions issue
bibles against him, and say the most injurious things about him, but
we never hear his side. We have none but the evidence for the
prosecution, and yet we have rendered the verdict. To my mind, this is
irregular. It is un-English; it is un-American; it is French. Without
this precedent Dreyfus could not have been condemned. Of course Satan
has some kind of a case, it goes without saying. It may be a poor one,
but that is nothing; that can be said about any of us. As soon as I
can get at the facts I will undertake his rehabilitation myself, if I
can find an unpolitic publisher. It is a thing which we ought to be
willing to do for any one who is under a cloud. We may not pay him
reverence, for that would be indiscreet, but we can at least respect
his talents. A person who has for untold centuries maintained the
imposing position of spiritual head of four-fifths of the human race,
and political head of the whole of it, must be granted the possession
of executive abilities of the loftiest order."

So my question to anyone who cares to consider it is this:

Were the attacks of 9/11 murderous atrocities, or were they a
rational, strategic, and justified ***COUNTER-ATTACK*** against those
who had been committing violence against Muslims -- Zionist project,
Shah of Iran, Iraqi sanctions -- since forever, and utterly deaf to
any peaceful and lawful appeals to modify their violent behavior?  Was
it in fact an egregious attack, or was it ***JUSTIFIED*** and
completely predictable pushback?

I'm sorry.  I don't want to be the one to ask this question., but...

Small point.  I want to anticipate one line of rebuttal.  The "It was
a terrorist attack!  Innocent civilians were targeted and killed!"
Innocent civilians?  Guilty civilians?  Innocent military personnel?
Guilty military personnel?  Are there any real rules regarding who it
is okay to kill? or Isn't it all just war-bullshit rhetoric?

Let me answer this last question.  War is the ultimate state of
non-cooperation.  It is beyond absurd to imagine that you can tell an
adversary how they may conduct a war against you.

I'm sorry.  This whole business just sickens me.  Enough.

 Best, Jeff Davis

"...short of genocide, it is not possible to attain a final military
victory over a justified sense of grievance."
                              Michael Breen



From msd001 at gmail.com  Wed Jul 21 01:00:20 2010
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 21:00:20 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Sarah Palin
In-Reply-To: <E5BECA1D-3550-4859-87A2-CDE4E55CC9C1@bellsouth.net>
References: <001101cb26d1$670285b0$ad753644@sx28047db9d36c>
	<AANLkTimlb_CXNUbRSjND1n2GDFvEgL8QgYEt-WVzaz6T@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinMOeppInXSvLOh2Kw04imYwoTGfTeW1r0zxAoY@mail.gmail.com>
	<A1F6F7A2-6D30-4BCB-A14C-057F6608C8C9@bellsouth.net>
	<AANLkTikeBt1Dpv_4GCOnkDtLg1vk_aOW-tuf4-ejrKMA@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinUnDQr1vqbeAbGiAfzHAQSLXHcrB6Qgez6QtRs@mail.gmail.com>
	<857DEF8A-76A6-45A4-BD19-7334CC451681@bellsouth.net>
	<AANLkTil8zRMZh65j70Ue5M4EG-AvhbznrYryUbMEHipq@mail.gmail.com>
	<E5BECA1D-3550-4859-87A2-CDE4E55CC9C1@bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikrAir1TpriW-060zufu6y-jH-WUmJ-BzIlzepd@mail.gmail.com>

2010/7/20 John Clark <jonkc at bellsouth.net>:
> On Jul 20, 2010, at 3:19 PM, Robert Picone wrote:
>>
>> Not supported in any way? I guess that's why on September 12 2001 huge
>> demonstrations spontaneously broke out all over the Islamic world condemning
>> the hijackers. Oh wait that didn't happen.
>
> You know what? ?The?Amish?also didn't break out in spontaneous large
> demonstrations, neither did Novascotians or the Iroquois.
>
> If every one of the 19?hijackers who murdered nearly 3000 people on 911 were
> Italian I'll bet the very next day there would be huge demonstrations of
> italians showing how appalled they were, the same goes for Irish or Japanese
> or just about ethnic group you could think of, except for the Islamic.
> ??John K Clark

Apples & Oranges.  Islamic isn't an ethnic group, it's a shared
belief.  That it isn't shared universally is a source of great concern
for both believers and non-believers.  The same could be said of many
prevailing flavors of monotheism.  It is difficult to paint a very
accurate picture with such a broad brush.



From msd001 at gmail.com  Wed Jul 21 01:07:57 2010
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 21:07:57 -0400
Subject: [ExI] laser shoots down drone
In-Reply-To: <F702F47D44D9401C93B163025C269D2A@spike>
References: <F702F47D44D9401C93B163025C269D2A@spike>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikqbwA7qPv50VPjPUXBEpiuPVXllrQmIAOCoNo4@mail.gmail.com>

2010/7/20 spike <spike66 at att.net>:
> We have had lasers shooting down aircraft in sf for fifty years or more.
> Now it is real:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2hs9vmlEd-A
>
> Is there any point in continuing to build expensive fighter planes?

Sure.  With all the anti-fighter-plane lasers in place, it's gonna
take a lot MORE fighters to get the job done.

half joke, half sad insight into military spending  :)


From sparge at gmail.com  Wed Jul 21 02:02:24 2010
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 22:02:24 -0400
Subject: [ExI] IP vs. a free society/was Re: medical marijuana
In-Reply-To: <304271.59544.qm@web81606.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <894901.99789.qm@web30103.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<304271.59544.qm@web81606.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinvnTZZkZXKV0748rtXnR4C39synt_ijfRUsWb9@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jul 20, 2010 at 12:48 PM, Adrian Tymes <wingcat at pacbell.net> wrote:

> There may be a silver lining to that.  If person B refuses
> to do any research and independently recreates person A's
> work...has person B added any value, when they could have
> simply looked up the patent database and copied person A's
> work?
>

When person B's method is completely different and turn out to be cheaper to
produce, more reliable, or otherwise superior, yes. But if person B wants to
spend their life reinventing the wheel, and can afford to do so, what harm
is being done?

-Dave
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100720/d02aa8b6/attachment.html>

From spike66 at att.net  Wed Jul 21 02:01:18 2010
From: spike66 at att.net (Gregory Jones)
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 19:01:18 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Sarah Palin
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikSD76Dq8B8cX9LCgFEBhdcNElee6C54bkufOtC@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <205557.77001.qm@web81502.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

--- On Tue, 7/20/10, Jeff Davis <jrd1415 at gmail.com> wrote:
?
>?I see Mr.
Clark's post as reflection of that larger trend, aimed at -- and
successfully so -- making Methodists the new boogie man.? A replacement
for the old Soviet Union...
?
Don't worry Jeff, the old Soviet Union is not being replaced.? They are still the bad guys.

>...All this talk of?Episcopalian badness and murder and celebrating evil, etc,
bothers me.? It's so one-sided.? It's all cultural echo chamber and no
"other side of the story"...
?
Ja, you are right.? So here we go, some of the other side of the story:
?
http://www.theatlanticwire.com/features/view/feature/Hezbollah-Opens-Jihad-Theme-Park-1636
?
Imagine you are a writer for The Onion, and you are being asked to make?a parody of this.? How??
?
?{8^D? 
?
spike
?
?
?
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100720/475ba9bd/attachment.html>

From sparge at gmail.com  Wed Jul 21 01:50:02 2010
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 21:50:02 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Was medical marijuana. On Insurance
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTilbl95wp6ENI5O8MgKt8gyc183Cr8OprNsPTasU@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTilbl95wp6ENI5O8MgKt8gyc183Cr8OprNsPTasU@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTilZtlG9xuR4_rrSr-jcA0m1PvdF7aq-KbmF3764@mail.gmail.com>

2010/7/20 Colin D <colin.dodson at gmail.com>

> May I be so egalitarian as to suggest that perhaps the so-called 'free
> market' isn't the best solution for all problems, and that just maybe
> everyone who wants it deserves suitable and appropriate health-care,
> regardless of their material wealth?


Suggest away. And while you're at it, suggest a way to pay for all that
top-notch healthcare.

-Dave
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100720/7de8b209/attachment.html>

From stathisp at gmail.com  Wed Jul 21 03:44:28 2010
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 13:44:28 +1000
Subject: [ExI] atheists de-baptize unbelievers:
In-Reply-To: <COL112-W18E70924E6137DF8D688AB9DA00@phx.gbl>
References: <201007172220.o6HMKY7a002861@andromeda.ziaspace.com> 
	<AANLkTinQVytaEJmvcYiUCBLXtvfsuzQu0vv84ADOtChO@mail.gmail.com> 
	<4C4258EB.9080107@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTinh3oNzBI-7KM3tGOGywoE4h61aNoZTu9CXYg02@mail.gmail.com> 
	<AANLkTil-0pKUHH5ZoU9zmi6GZEX4fD3cY-GJQhMJJGwQ@mail.gmail.com> 
	<AANLkTilh4S3AVxmn1KGumnUk0L87-Qmix-R7HpF4IosJ@mail.gmail.com> 
	<AANLkTik-7y9OMWu0fRclqhsAgQGykS7hjCneYXXiZgp7@mail.gmail.com> 
	<COL112-W9F4BEBE694BAC4CE96BFF9DBE0@phx.gbl>
	<AANLkTikT6wepwOta2bzqafXIfo1mGOqJFsXIhv93meNO@mail.gmail.com> 
	<COL112-W18E70924E6137DF8D688AB9DA00@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <AANLkTik0fRPggEUdL_tYH1SuMBdjEcrD-Uq6JRildP6D@mail.gmail.com>

2010/7/21 darren shawn greer <dgreer_68 at hotmail.com>
>
> >They're not all bad but they're still wrong. Truth is not a matter of
> >utility: if the belief in a flat Earth could be shown to have a
> >calming, positive influence on the life of the believer it is no less
> >a false belief for that. The flat-earthers are generally harmless folk
> >and perhaps we should leave them alone, but if they had vast amounts
> >of money and influence and went about successfully turning people to
> >their view they should be vigorously opposed.
>
>
>
>
> If it were a matter of something as concrete as a flat earth, then you simply show a picture of a round earth and there ends your argument. Any further discussion of flat earth is simply delusion. But it's unfortunately not a matter of the physical universe. There is neither anything in the universe that points to the necessity of a creator, nor anything that absolutely precludes one. As Huston Smith says, "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence."

There are infinitely many propositions that can neither be proved nor
disproved, and the way we deal with them is for the most part to
ignore them. Have you ever tried arguing with someone who is
clinically diagnosed with a psychotic disorder? They have a ready
answer to every objection you raise to their delusional beliefs.

Einstein was a believer in a God, because the laws he uncovered were
so immutable and precise he could not imagine a process of physical
creation without one. Was Einstein deluded? Perhaps. He still
contributed greatly to modern science, as I doubt anyone here will
argue.

Einstein was an agnostic. He specifically denied believing in a
personal God. Still, it is possible to be deluded about one part od
reality and still function relatively normally. In psychiatry that
forms the distinction between delusional disorder and paranoid
schizophrenia.


--
Stathis Papaioannou



From jonkc at bellsouth.net  Wed Jul 21 03:55:04 2010
From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John Clark)
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 23:55:04 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Sarah Palin
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTiko4n3wRoVExxBOkuF6IsxDADV7F-0nesPWt7OP@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTinDA62CsQAEl8Xwd7DXEHo5pVzQ2PFV0LYHdl7R@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTiko4n3wRoVExxBOkuF6IsxDADV7F-0nesPWt7OP@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5721734D-50D1-46ED-9A78-0C0EE51343C9@bellsouth.net>

On Jul 20, 2010, at 5:52 PM, John Grigg wrote:

> I must respectfully disagree. Islam itself (I would like to think)
> did not carry out the 9-11 attack, but instead it was
> radical/terrorist members of Islam.

Yea yea I've heard that tired old apology for evil before: It's not the *real* Islamic people who have power in the Islamic world, who mutilate women, stone people to death for trivial crimes or no crime at all, believe in Bullshit and want to kill you if you don't believe in the same Bullshit they do. Real Islamic people don't give hateful and stupid speeches, engage in violent demonstrations, write screeds so dumb they would be comical if they didn't cause so much harm to the world, and vow to kill novelists and cartoonists. Real islamic people do none of those things, real Islamic people say nothing, write nothing, think nothing and in fact do nothing at all.

I'M NOT BUYING THAT LOAD OF HORSE MANURE! 

And it's interesting that about half the people responding to my comments think I'm being too mean to these religious thugs while the other half thinks we should use code words so as not to get into trouble with these oh so tolerant sweethearts. 

>  Ironically, the more we fight these guys, the more we tend (unless very careful)
> to become *like them.*

I think the real danger is in becoming tolerant of intolerance. It's as if somebody from the 1930's was intimidated from criticizing a certain German leader for fear of being called a racist and discriminating against the Aryan race. Political correctness be damned, some things are just wrong.  

 John K Clark  


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100720/99efd1df/attachment.html>

From jonkc at bellsouth.net  Wed Jul 21 04:31:24 2010
From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John Clark)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 00:31:24 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Sarah Palin
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikSD76Dq8B8cX9LCgFEBhdcNElee6C54bkufOtC@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTinDA62CsQAEl8Xwd7DXEHo5pVzQ2PFV0LYHdl7R@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTiko4n3wRoVExxBOkuF6IsxDADV7F-0nesPWt7OP@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikSD76Dq8B8cX9LCgFEBhdcNElee6C54bkufOtC@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <D1F079F1-39D9-455B-9796-EE6065A4E29E@bellsouth.net>

On Jul 20, 2010, at 7:44 PM, Jeff Davis wrote:
> 
> The last nine years have seen an intense and unrelenting -- and
> clearly unwarranted -- broad-brush demonization of Islam.

Clearly unwarranted!? Clearly? I can think of few things more warranted, and if you can't demonize something as repugnant and stupid as Islam what can you demonize?

>  I see Mr. Clark's post as reflection of that larger trend, aimed at -- and
> successfully so -- making Muslims the new boogie man.  A replacement
> for the old Soviet Union.

It works for me, certainly if somebody asked what the single greatest threat to civilization was it wouldn't take me long to give you an answer. And it wasn't the boogie man who threw acid into a young girl's face to stop her from going to school and becoming educated, or flew civilian airliners into skyscrapers, it was Islamic fundamentalists who have a direct line to God.  

> For the record, Christianity, Hinduism, Islam, Judaism, and all the
> rest, are just different flavors of the same atrocity-justifying
> cultural identity memeset.

Yes all religions are ridiculous but Islam is particularly dangerous because a disturbingly large percentage REALLY take the nonsense seriously, very seriously.

You then try to sell the idea that because the USA has done bad things in the past it is best for the future of civilization if we pretend the atrocities Islam is committing right this very minute didn't exist. I'm not buying that sack of shit idea either.

 John K Clark

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100721/605fa5a9/attachment.html>

From stathisp at gmail.com  Wed Jul 21 06:02:27 2010
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 16:02:27 +1000
Subject: [ExI] atheists de-baptize unbelievers
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTilpFo6aQkVkIkbxBHnaZZ47zM3-6sjjUiuoEYuM@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTilpFo6aQkVkIkbxBHnaZZ47zM3-6sjjUiuoEYuM@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinOZC0PVKH-5PEbedVU9SVC7vUlnNgieck76GO9@mail.gmail.com>

On 21 July 2010 02:55, F. Crick <dreamaswemay at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi. I haven't introduced myself, yet, but eventually will, in a more
> apropos thread. I'm not even sure if I'm using the email list
> correctly, but if I'm not, I'm sure one of you fine people will be so
> kind as to let me know.

You've quoted the entire digest post rather than the part of interest,
other than that your response is fine.

> On topic: it seems to me that agnosticism is a more realistic outlook.
> To deny the existence of something that has, so far, been impossible
> to prove or disprove seems just as foolish as to *assume* the
> existence of a particular *kind* of that something that may or may not
> be there. Assumptions are the mothers of all mistakes, and religion is
> the mother of all assumptions, since it seeks to define conditions
> after death.
>
> In my opinion, it seems more logical to admit the lack of
> understanding, and seek to rectify that deficit - not to say either
> 'we're right' or 'they're wrong'.

There are some things for which there is no absolute evidence against
but which it is nevertheless foolish to believe in. For example, are
you atheistic or agnostic about the goddess Athena, who sprang in full
armour from the head of Zeus when Hephaestus struck it with his hammer
to relieve a headache? The Greek gods are no more ridiculous than
Yahweh, the Hebrew sky god, yet no-one today would bother making the
point that it cannot be proved that they don't exist.

What all religious people generally say is that *obviously* other
religions are ridiculous if taken as literally true, but they were
lucky enough to be born into the one religion that is special.


-- 
Stathis Papaioannou


From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu  Wed Jul 21 07:00:10 2010
From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 00:00:10 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Sarah Palin
In-Reply-To: <D1F079F1-39D9-455B-9796-EE6065A4E29E@bellsouth.net>
References: <AANLkTinDA62CsQAEl8Xwd7DXEHo5pVzQ2PFV0LYHdl7R@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTiko4n3wRoVExxBOkuF6IsxDADV7F-0nesPWt7OP@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikSD76Dq8B8cX9LCgFEBhdcNElee6C54bkufOtC@mail.gmail.com>
	<D1F079F1-39D9-455B-9796-EE6065A4E29E@bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <20100721070005.GA2406@ofb.net>

On Wed, Jul 21, 2010 at 12:31:24AM -0400, John Clark wrote:

>    Clearly unwarranted!? Clearly? I can think of few things more
>    warranted, and if you can't demonize something as repugnant and stupid
>    as Islam what can you demonize?

Demonization.

>    the atrocities Islam is committing right this very minute didn't

"Islam" isn't committing anything, anywhere, and never has.

Some people who are Muslim are committing atrocities.  So are some
people who are Jews, or Christians, or Hindus, or atheist.

Some of them claim justification in Islam for what they do -- but then
other Muslims call them wrong.  As with most other religions.

Many *Arabs*, many of whom are Muslim, also have more specific
grievances against Israel or the US or some European countries, related
more to colonialism and nationalism and other history than to Islam per
se.  Iranians have their own grievances, linked to our support of an
oppressive regime, though those seem more nursed by the current
oppressive regime than held by the population.

I first learned of E-prime on this list.  Perhaps it's time for it to be
practiced for a while again.

-xx- Damien X-) 


From nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Jul 21 11:19:43 2010
From: nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk (Tom Nowell)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 11:19:43 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [ExI] Sarah Palin
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1258.1279650535.10820.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <283907.88603.qm@web27007.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

John Clark wrote :"If every one of the 19 hijackers who murdered nearly 3000 people on 911 were Italian I'll bet the very next day there would be huge demonstrations of italians showing how appalled they were, the same goes for Irish or Japanese or any other ethnic group" (and then mentions the exception of what Spike would call non-quakers).

Well, if the 19 hijackers had been Irish and had instead been detonating bombs in Britain, we could count on a few US politicians proudly announcing their support, such as the delightful Congressman Peter King of New York. There are several stories on the web about his support for the IRA, which finally had to be abandoned post 9/11 when he realised New Yorkers would no longer support terrorists, regardless of ethnicity.
The most recent article on him I could find is http://www.politicsinvivo.com/2010/02/ladies-and-gentlemen-congressman-peter-king/

It seems wherever there is an atrocity, you'll find a US politician shamelessly trying to find the angle that will win him a vote.

Tom


      



From sparge at gmail.com  Wed Jul 21 11:18:22 2010
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 07:18:22 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Sarah Palin
In-Reply-To: <20100721070005.GA2406@ofb.net>
References: <AANLkTinDA62CsQAEl8Xwd7DXEHo5pVzQ2PFV0LYHdl7R@mail.gmail.com> 
	<AANLkTiko4n3wRoVExxBOkuF6IsxDADV7F-0nesPWt7OP@mail.gmail.com> 
	<AANLkTikSD76Dq8B8cX9LCgFEBhdcNElee6C54bkufOtC@mail.gmail.com> 
	<D1F079F1-39D9-455B-9796-EE6065A4E29E@bellsouth.net>
	<20100721070005.GA2406@ofb.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimKceU2agCVq6N81NMSsJt10OzCINxGEEbPGt_o@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jul 21, 2010 at 3:00 AM, Damien Sullivan
<phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu>wrote:

> Some people who are Muslim are committing atrocities.  So are some
> people who are Jews, or Christians, or Hindus, or atheist.
>

The question is whether these people are committing these atrocities because
of their beliefs. If so, then those beliefs are to blame, whether or not
everyone agrees that these people are being true to their faiths.

Can you really supply examples of atheism-motivated atrocities?

-Dave
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100721/45fc1f7b/attachment.html>

From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Wed Jul 21 13:40:14 2010
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 15:40:14 +0200
Subject: [ExI] medical marijuana
In-Reply-To: <461912.82759.qm@web30105.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <971548.87687.qm@web59915.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<AANLkTilKUl8rebdhWaeFt3jSU5Ci0Sw-9EDfSLLjPi6L@mail.gmail.com>
	<461912.82759.qm@web30105.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinrseheOOjWVmv7vkV5y7mkvfd1jExELOpvzYY9@mail.gmail.com>

2010/7/13 Dan <dan_ust at yahoo.com>
> This is what I was thinking too. You're not feeling well and have terminal cancer -- and don't want to be doped up on morphine derivatives. So you smoke pot. Big deal if this might have long-term health consequences. It's your life; you're in pain; and you're likely not going to live long enough to get, say, lung cancer.

Ideally, you should be in a position to make an informed choice.

On anecdotical  evidence, I sincerely doubt that "smoking pot" is the
ideal therapeutical choice, but for example I hear that the
effectiveness/side effects balance in such circumstances is optimal
with intravenous administration of heroin, and in any even much better
than with opiates (and other painkillers) in more widespread medical
use.

Yet, such option is unavailable even to terminal patients.

--
Stefano Vaj



From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Wed Jul 21 13:30:49 2010
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 15:30:49 +0200
Subject: [ExI] medical marijuana
In-Reply-To: <971548.87687.qm@web59915.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <971548.87687.qm@web59915.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTilgtFERcyKS5n3LJ5I7bYxqknn-kFgbNcGIYmiL@mail.gmail.com>

2010/7/13 Post Futurist <p0stfuturist at yahoo.com>
> What do you hear, say, concerning the percentage of certified marijuana patients who actually use marijuana for medical treatments rather than to get high?

"High"? In Italian at least, cannabis psychotropic and physiological
effects could be qualified as a very clear "down".

--
Stefano Vaj


From jonkc at bellsouth.net  Wed Jul 21 14:17:49 2010
From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John Clark)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 10:17:49 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Sarah Palin
In-Reply-To: <283907.88603.qm@web27007.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
References: <283907.88603.qm@web27007.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <81FEF8C6-4EA2-4624-882D-F4914A381447@bellsouth.net>

On Jul 21, 2010, at 7:19 AM, Tom Nowell wrote:
> 
> Well, if the 19 hijackers had been Irish and had instead been detonating bombs in Britain, we could count on a few US politicians proudly announcing their support

Yes, unfortunately you're right about that and is yet another example of how religion poisons everything.

  John K Clark



-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100721/7795a574/attachment.html>

From colin.dodson at gmail.com  Wed Jul 21 13:08:05 2010
From: colin.dodson at gmail.com (Colin D)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 08:08:05 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Was medical marijuana. On Insurance
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTilZtlG9xuR4_rrSr-jcA0m1PvdF7aq-KbmF3764@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTilbl95wp6ENI5O8MgKt8gyc183Cr8OprNsPTasU@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTilZtlG9xuR4_rrSr-jcA0m1PvdF7aq-KbmF3764@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinZ9dU1Khmi4IQylHuhB9tFL-eUwLmxFcv1rTnn@mail.gmail.com>

Well, this does get into another discussion (another post I responded to):
Medical science.  As it stands, nothing is done about companies treating
treatments, equipment, and drugs as their property, and the pharmaceutical
industry, for example, records record profits year after year. I understand
that playing the market and all that is great for productivity and
creativity, BUT there should be a limit to this when health is concerned. A
rudimentary idea stemming from this is essentially making gov't buyouts of
drug patents etc. more routine (for the most useful and needed treatments)
and open them up for manufacturers to use royalty free (or at a
substantially lower rate) to keep the costs low. As well, preventative
measures will do wonders, but this mustn't come at the cost of liberty.
(think like AA but for the obese)  These are just a few ideas that could
quickly rein in the cost of healthcare while maintaining utmost quality.

Don't think, though, that I am foolish enough to trust our gov't
wholeheartedly-I come from Illinois, I know how it goes. Fortunately,
though, the above comes at little direct risk to the public, and as always,
more transparency and public involvement is necessary in gov't.

Yours etc.,
  Colin D

2010/7/20 Dave Sill <sparge at gmail.com>

> 2010/7/20 Colin D <colin.dodson at gmail.com>
>
> May I be so egalitarian as to suggest that perhaps the so-called 'free
>> market' isn't the best solution for all problems, and that just maybe
>> everyone who wants it deserves suitable and appropriate health-care,
>> regardless of their material wealth?
>
>
> Suggest away. And while you're at it, suggest a way to pay for all that
> top-notch healthcare.
>
> -Dave
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100721/de06f05d/attachment.html>

From dgreer_68 at hotmail.com  Wed Jul 21 13:51:58 2010
From: dgreer_68 at hotmail.com (darren shawn greer)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 09:51:58 -0400
Subject: [ExI] atheists de-baptize unbelievers:
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTik0fRPggEUdL_tYH1SuMBdjEcrD-Uq6JRildP6D@mail.gmail.com>
References: <201007172220.o6HMKY7a002861@andromeda.ziaspace.com>,
	<AANLkTinQVytaEJmvcYiUCBLXtvfsuzQu0vv84ADOtChO@mail.gmail.com>,
	<4C4258EB.9080107@satx.rr.com>,
	<AANLkTinh3oNzBI-7KM3tGOGywoE4h61aNoZTu9CXYg02@mail.gmail.com>,
	<AANLkTil-0pKUHH5ZoU9zmi6GZEX4fD3cY-GJQhMJJGwQ@mail.gmail.com>,
	<AANLkTilh4S3AVxmn1KGumnUk0L87-Qmix-R7HpF4IosJ@mail.gmail.com>,
	<AANLkTik-7y9OMWu0fRclqhsAgQGykS7hjCneYXXiZgp7@mail.gmail.com>,
	<COL112-W9F4BEBE694BAC4CE96BFF9DBE0@phx.gbl>,
	<AANLkTikT6wepwOta2bzqafXIfo1mGOqJFsXIhv93meNO@mail.gmail.com>,
	<COL112-W18E70924E6137DF8D688AB9DA00@phx.gbl>,
	<AANLkTik0fRPggEUdL_tYH1SuMBdjEcrD-Uq6JRildP6D@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <COL112-W4238ADE999FAF7AD8AAC809DA10@phx.gbl>


>Einstein was an agnostic. He specifically denied believing in a
personal God. 
 
A quote from the later Time article. Full text reached by the link below.
 
D.
 
 
 
 
'It may seem logical, in retrospect, that a combination of awe and rebellion made Einstein exceptional as a scientist. But what is less well known is that those two traits also combined to shape his spiritual journey and determine the nature of his faith. The rebellion part comes in at the beginning of his life: he rejected at first his parents' secularism and later the concepts of religious ritual and of a personal God who intercedes in the daily workings of the world. But the awe part comes in his 50s when he settled into a deism based on what he called the "spirit manifest in the laws of the universe" and a sincere belief in a "God who reveals Himself in the harmony of all that exists."'

Read more: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1607298,00.html#ixzz0uKBOv2Eq







 



From: dgreer_68 at hotmail.com
To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
Subject: RE: [ExI] atheists de-baptize unbelievers:
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 09:18:06 -0400



>Einstein was an agnostic. He specifically denied believing in a
personal God. 

 

 

Entirely untrue. He was not agnostic but a believer.  Remember Einstein's often used quip to Bohr, that "God does not play dice."? Time magazine did an interview with him--you can probably find it on-line--where he discusses his belief in God. They also did another piece in 2006 about his stated belief, and how the Christians tried unsuccesfully to make him a poster boy--his God was static and non-interventionist. But if you do the research, you'll see enough to convince yourself, I think. BTW, he  referred to God as "the Old One."


Per Ardua Ad Astra
For more info on author Darren Greer visit 
http://darrenshawngreer.blogspot.com



  

> From: stathisp at gmail.com
> Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 13:44:28 +1000
> To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> Subject: Re: [ExI] atheists de-baptize unbelievers:
> 
> 2010/7/21 darren shawn greer <dgreer_68 at hotmail.com>
> >
> > >They're not all bad but they're still wrong. Truth is not a matter of
> > >utility: if the belief in a flat Earth could be shown to have a
> > >calming, positive influence on the life of the believer it is no less
> > >a false belief for that. The flat-earthers are generally harmless folk
> > >and perhaps we should leave them alone, but if they had vast amounts
> > >of money and influence and went about successfully turning people to
> > >their view they should be vigorously opposed.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > If it were a matter of something as concrete as a flat earth, then you simply show a picture of a round earth and there ends your argument. Any further discussion of flat earth is simply delusion. But it's unfortunately not a matter of the physical universe. There is neither anything in the universe that points to the necessity of a creator, nor anything that absolutely precludes one. As Huston Smith says, "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence."
> 
> There are infinitely many propositions that can neither be proved nor
> disproved, and the way we deal with them is for the most part to
> ignore them. Have you ever tried arguing with someone who is
> clinically diagnosed with a psychotic disorder? They have a ready
> answer to every objection you raise to their delusional beliefs.
> 
> Einstein was a believer in a God, because the laws he uncovered were
> so immutable and precise he could not imagine a process of physical
> creation without one. Was Einstein deluded? Perhaps. He still
> contributed greatly to modern science, as I doubt anyone here will
> argue.
> 
> Einstein was an agnostic. He specifically denied believing in a
> personal God. Still, it is possible to be deluded about one part od
> reality and still function relatively normally. In psychiatry that
> forms the distinction between delusional disorder and paranoid
> schizophrenia.
> 
> 
> --
> Stathis Papaioannou
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat




Look 'em in the eye: FREE Messenger video chat Chat Now!
 		 	   		  
_________________________________________________________________
Learn more ways to connect with your buddies now
http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9734388
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100721/4ed0e781/attachment.html>

From dgreer_68 at hotmail.com  Wed Jul 21 13:18:06 2010
From: dgreer_68 at hotmail.com (darren shawn greer)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 09:18:06 -0400
Subject: [ExI] atheists de-baptize unbelievers:
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTik0fRPggEUdL_tYH1SuMBdjEcrD-Uq6JRildP6D@mail.gmail.com>
References: <201007172220.o6HMKY7a002861@andromeda.ziaspace.com>,
	<AANLkTinQVytaEJmvcYiUCBLXtvfsuzQu0vv84ADOtChO@mail.gmail.com>,
	<4C4258EB.9080107@satx.rr.com>,
	<AANLkTinh3oNzBI-7KM3tGOGywoE4h61aNoZTu9CXYg02@mail.gmail.com>,
	<AANLkTil-0pKUHH5ZoU9zmi6GZEX4fD3cY-GJQhMJJGwQ@mail.gmail.com>,
	<AANLkTilh4S3AVxmn1KGumnUk0L87-Qmix-R7HpF4IosJ@mail.gmail.com>,
	<AANLkTik-7y9OMWu0fRclqhsAgQGykS7hjCneYXXiZgp7@mail.gmail.com>,
	<COL112-W9F4BEBE694BAC4CE96BFF9DBE0@phx.gbl>,
	<AANLkTikT6wepwOta2bzqafXIfo1mGOqJFsXIhv93meNO@mail.gmail.com>,
	<COL112-W18E70924E6137DF8D688AB9DA00@phx.gbl>,
	<AANLkTik0fRPggEUdL_tYH1SuMBdjEcrD-Uq6JRildP6D@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <COL112-W76BB47419359B5A0E352F9DA10@phx.gbl>


>Einstein was an agnostic. He specifically denied believing in a
personal God. 

 

 

Entirely untrue. He was not agnostic but a believer.  Remember Einstein's often used quip to Bohr, that "God does not play dice."? Time magazine did an interview with him--you can probably find it on-line--where he discusses his belief in God. They also did another piece in 2006 about his stated belief, and how the Christians tried unsuccesfully to make him a poster boy--his God was static and non-interventionist. But if you do the research, you'll see enough to convince yourself, I think. BTW, he  referred to God as "the Old One."


Per Ardua Ad Astra
For more info on author Darren Greer visit 
http://darrenshawngreer.blogspot.com



 

> From: stathisp at gmail.com
> Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 13:44:28 +1000
> To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> Subject: Re: [ExI] atheists de-baptize unbelievers:
> 
> 2010/7/21 darren shawn greer <dgreer_68 at hotmail.com>
> >
> > >They're not all bad but they're still wrong. Truth is not a matter of
> > >utility: if the belief in a flat Earth could be shown to have a
> > >calming, positive influence on the life of the believer it is no less
> > >a false belief for that. The flat-earthers are generally harmless folk
> > >and perhaps we should leave them alone, but if they had vast amounts
> > >of money and influence and went about successfully turning people to
> > >their view they should be vigorously opposed.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > If it were a matter of something as concrete as a flat earth, then you simply show a picture of a round earth and there ends your argument. Any further discussion of flat earth is simply delusion. But it's unfortunately not a matter of the physical universe. There is neither anything in the universe that points to the necessity of a creator, nor anything that absolutely precludes one. As Huston Smith says, "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence."
> 
> There are infinitely many propositions that can neither be proved nor
> disproved, and the way we deal with them is for the most part to
> ignore them. Have you ever tried arguing with someone who is
> clinically diagnosed with a psychotic disorder? They have a ready
> answer to every objection you raise to their delusional beliefs.
> 
> Einstein was a believer in a God, because the laws he uncovered were
> so immutable and precise he could not imagine a process of physical
> creation without one. Was Einstein deluded? Perhaps. He still
> contributed greatly to modern science, as I doubt anyone here will
> argue.
> 
> Einstein was an agnostic. He specifically denied believing in a
> personal God. Still, it is possible to be deluded about one part od
> reality and still function relatively normally. In psychiatry that
> forms the distinction between delusional disorder and paranoid
> schizophrenia.
> 
> 
> --
> Stathis Papaioannou
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

 		 	   		  
_________________________________________________________________
Turn down-time into play-time with Messenger games
http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9734385
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100721/8def35e7/attachment.html>

From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Wed Jul 21 14:57:19 2010
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 16:57:19 +0200
Subject: [ExI] medical marijuana
In-Reply-To: <68847.28387.qm@web81505.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <221122.7014.qm@web114415.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<68847.28387.qm@web81505.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTilQ8WP_sRsuPpAhYnTUlzg7HkWTLbD_asdvfw9b@mail.gmail.com>

2010/7/14 Gregory Jones <spike66 at att.net>
>Damien Broderick was the first close friend I ever had who was a genuine "hippie" type, and I didn't meet him until I was in my late 30s.

Really? Funny, I have always fancied him more of the skinhead kind. :-D

--
Stefano Vaj


From jonkc at bellsouth.net  Wed Jul 21 14:10:14 2010
From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John Clark)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 10:10:14 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Sarah Palin
In-Reply-To: <20100721070005.GA2406@ofb.net>
References: <AANLkTinDA62CsQAEl8Xwd7DXEHo5pVzQ2PFV0LYHdl7R@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTiko4n3wRoVExxBOkuF6IsxDADV7F-0nesPWt7OP@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikSD76Dq8B8cX9LCgFEBhdcNElee6C54bkufOtC@mail.gmail.com>
	<D1F079F1-39D9-455B-9796-EE6065A4E29E@bellsouth.net>
	<20100721070005.GA2406@ofb.net>
Message-ID: <6F221A32-C6DE-4D60-B144-D83F589CE93B@bellsouth.net>

On Jul 21, 2010, at 3:00 AM, Damien Sullivan wrote:

> "Islam" isn't committing anything, anywhere, and never has.

Bullshit.
> 
> Some people who are Muslim are committing atrocities.  So are some
> people who are Jews, or Christians, or Hindus, or atheist.

Sure atheists have committed atrocities, so have people with mustaches, but unlike Islam they did not commit them because they were atheists or had mustaches. The Islamic people I'm talking about make no secret of why they did those hideous things, they will proudly tell you they were commanded to do so in their holy book and did those murders because of and for Islam. Don't take my word on this, just ask them!

Somebody once said that with or without religion good people will do good things and bad people will do bad things, but for good people to do bad things you need religion, and for that there is none better than Islam.

> I first learned of E-prime on this list.  Perhaps it's time for it to be
> practiced for a while again.

If E-prime, that royal road to the truth, leads you to conclude that Islam is not a grave danger to civilization and the appropriate response to that hideous evil is to make sorry-ass apologies to it, then E-prime is every bit as useless a tool for learning how the world works as I always suspected it to be.

  John K Clark




-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100721/f506f209/attachment.html>

From max at maxmore.com  Wed Jul 21 14:46:46 2010
From: max at maxmore.com (Max More)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 09:46:46 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Religions and violence [Was Re:  Sarah Palin]
Message-ID: <201007211513.o6LFDcxv019859@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

Damien Sullivan:
>Some of them claim justification in Islam for what they do -- but 
>then other Muslims call them wrong.  As with most other religions.

You're obviously right that Islam itself is not committing 
atrocities, some Muslims are. However, I think you're wriggling out 
of John's main point -- there *is* something about the Muslim 
religion that commands Muslims to go out and kill the infidel. Most 
Muslims don't do that, but they are just not following their religion 
fully. Thank goodness for inconsistency, in this case.

It reminds me of the great majority of Catholic students I taught in 
the Los Angeles areas some years ago. In my Philosophy of Religion 
class, I would ask if they were Catholic, central to which is the 
view that the Pope is infallible on matters of religions (ex 
cathedra). After affirming that, they would nevertheless say they 
disagreed with the Pope on sex before marriage and wearing of condoms.

(I made this same point in a post yesterday, but I never saw it 
appear on the list.)

Max



From giulio at gmail.com  Wed Jul 21 15:46:55 2010
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 17:46:55 +0200
Subject: [ExI] atheists de-baptize unbelievers:
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTins8wRtfcfhXKaAweck03Bn_Ru1WKxMSZPNsHLx@mail.gmail.com>
References: <201007172220.o6HMKY7a002861@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<AANLkTinQVytaEJmvcYiUCBLXtvfsuzQu0vv84ADOtChO@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C4258EB.9080107@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTinh3oNzBI-7KM3tGOGywoE4h61aNoZTu9CXYg02@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTil-0pKUHH5ZoU9zmi6GZEX4fD3cY-GJQhMJJGwQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTilh4S3AVxmn1KGumnUk0L87-Qmix-R7HpF4IosJ@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTil16nzQqto0A4urpj16434wqhSKjX0G2_sIaB7s@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTilYm9MOc_bzZTeBUGBKFXckYCLnQewgL_-AlZnB@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTins8wRtfcfhXKaAweck03Bn_Ru1WKxMSZPNsHLx@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTilLhNdqOFeeXtiy1vNR12e3KttvxlQ0Z2JOS2Mh@mail.gmail.com>

I agree. They have been able to raise funds for the atheist buses,
without stealing anybody's money, so nobody should complain. I don't
like militant atheists much, so I will just look the other way when I
see an atheist bus.

2010/7/19 Richard Litzkow <rlitzkow at gmail.com>:
>
> I don't even think that this;
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/jan/06/religion-atheism is
> going too far either.
>
> - Richard Litzkow


From seculartranshumanist at gmail.com  Wed Jul 21 15:57:10 2010
From: seculartranshumanist at gmail.com (Joseph Bloch)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 11:57:10 -0400
Subject: [ExI] atheists de-baptize unbelievers:
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTilLhNdqOFeeXtiy1vNR12e3KttvxlQ0Z2JOS2Mh@mail.gmail.com>
References: <201007172220.o6HMKY7a002861@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<AANLkTinQVytaEJmvcYiUCBLXtvfsuzQu0vv84ADOtChO@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C4258EB.9080107@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTinh3oNzBI-7KM3tGOGywoE4h61aNoZTu9CXYg02@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTil-0pKUHH5ZoU9zmi6GZEX4fD3cY-GJQhMJJGwQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTilh4S3AVxmn1KGumnUk0L87-Qmix-R7HpF4IosJ@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTil16nzQqto0A4urpj16434wqhSKjX0G2_sIaB7s@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTilYm9MOc_bzZTeBUGBKFXckYCLnQewgL_-AlZnB@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTins8wRtfcfhXKaAweck03Bn_Ru1WKxMSZPNsHLx@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTilLhNdqOFeeXtiy1vNR12e3KttvxlQ0Z2JOS2Mh@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinp7r43OtZdyQn_tDEYTfKe-iiysscATuwJTiQm@mail.gmail.com>

What's militant about an ad that says "There's probably no God. Now
stop worrying and enjoy your life"?

Sounds pretty mild to me; heck, it's not even a definitive statement.
It's not like they said, "There's no God, and if you think there is,
you're an idiot," or "If you pray to Allah, you support mass murder
and child rape".

Joseph

On Wed, Jul 21, 2010 at 11:46 AM, Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:
> I agree. They have been able to raise funds for the atheist buses,
> without stealing anybody's money, so nobody should complain. I don't
> like militant atheists much, so I will just look the other way when I
> see an atheist bus.
>
> 2010/7/19 Richard Litzkow <rlitzkow at gmail.com>:
>>
>> I don't even think that this;
>> http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/jan/06/religion-atheism is
>> going too far either.
>>
>> - Richard Litzkow
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>


From natasha at natasha.cc  Wed Jul 21 16:13:09 2010
From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 11:13:09 -0500
Subject: [ExI] "Cosmist Manifesto available at Amazon.com
Message-ID: <0C633D11E806435F80E45B7E9942C0E9@DFC68LF1>

Ben Goertzel's new futurist tract "The Cosmist Manifesto" is now available
on Amazon.com, courtesy of Humanity+ Press:
<http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0984609709/>
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0984609709/

Many thanks to Ben for his hard work as Chair, and currently as Vice Chair
of Humanity+ and its amazing Board of Directors!  

Natasha

 <http://www.natasha.cc/> Natasha Vita-More
 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100721/fc51c353/attachment.html>

From giulio at gmail.com  Wed Jul 21 16:45:16 2010
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 18:45:16 +0200
Subject: [ExI] atheists de-baptize unbelievers:
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinp7r43OtZdyQn_tDEYTfKe-iiysscATuwJTiQm@mail.gmail.com>
References: <201007172220.o6HMKY7a002861@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<AANLkTinQVytaEJmvcYiUCBLXtvfsuzQu0vv84ADOtChO@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C4258EB.9080107@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTinh3oNzBI-7KM3tGOGywoE4h61aNoZTu9CXYg02@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTil-0pKUHH5ZoU9zmi6GZEX4fD3cY-GJQhMJJGwQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTilh4S3AVxmn1KGumnUk0L87-Qmix-R7HpF4IosJ@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTil16nzQqto0A4urpj16434wqhSKjX0G2_sIaB7s@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTilYm9MOc_bzZTeBUGBKFXckYCLnQewgL_-AlZnB@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTins8wRtfcfhXKaAweck03Bn_Ru1WKxMSZPNsHLx@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTilLhNdqOFeeXtiy1vNR12e3KttvxlQ0Z2JOS2Mh@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinp7r43OtZdyQn_tDEYTfKe-iiysscATuwJTiQm@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimf3COVe0vV5gi1brk6GvFSGUoJghPw-hw4DUNb@mail.gmail.com>

It is certainly milder than other statements I have seen from the same
group of "New Atheists". However, I don't question their convictions
because it is no business of mine. I also don't question their
entitlement to put ads on buses if they can find the money. All I ask
in return is that they extend the same live-and-let-live indifference
to others who may think differently from them.

On Wed, Jul 21, 2010 at 5:57 PM, Joseph Bloch
<seculartranshumanist at gmail.com> wrote:
> What's militant about an ad that says "There's probably no God. Now
> stop worrying and enjoy your life"?
>
> Sounds pretty mild to me; heck, it's not even a definitive statement.
> It's not like they said, "There's no God, and if you think there is,
> you're an idiot," or "If you pray to Allah, you support mass murder
> and child rape".
>
> Joseph
>
> On Wed, Jul 21, 2010 at 11:46 AM, Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:
>> I agree. They have been able to raise funds for the atheist buses,
>> without stealing anybody's money, so nobody should complain. I don't
>> like militant atheists much, so I will just look the other way when I
>> see an atheist bus.
>>
>> 2010/7/19 Richard Litzkow <rlitzkow at gmail.com>:
>>>
>>> I don't even think that this;
>>> http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/jan/06/religion-atheism is
>>> going too far either.
>>>
>>> - Richard Litzkow
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>


From giulio at gmail.com  Wed Jul 21 17:31:25 2010
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 19:31:25 +0200
Subject: [ExI] atheists de-baptize unbelievers:
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimf3COVe0vV5gi1brk6GvFSGUoJghPw-hw4DUNb@mail.gmail.com>
References: <201007172220.o6HMKY7a002861@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<AANLkTinQVytaEJmvcYiUCBLXtvfsuzQu0vv84ADOtChO@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C4258EB.9080107@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTinh3oNzBI-7KM3tGOGywoE4h61aNoZTu9CXYg02@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTil-0pKUHH5ZoU9zmi6GZEX4fD3cY-GJQhMJJGwQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTilh4S3AVxmn1KGumnUk0L87-Qmix-R7HpF4IosJ@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTil16nzQqto0A4urpj16434wqhSKjX0G2_sIaB7s@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTilYm9MOc_bzZTeBUGBKFXckYCLnQewgL_-AlZnB@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTins8wRtfcfhXKaAweck03Bn_Ru1WKxMSZPNsHLx@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTilLhNdqOFeeXtiy1vNR12e3KttvxlQ0Z2JOS2Mh@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinp7r43OtZdyQn_tDEYTfKe-iiysscATuwJTiQm@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimf3COVe0vV5gi1brk6GvFSGUoJghPw-hw4DUNb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimDBlayiXn6uAE_7MW9EH4vt84E_98Igsoaj_Nl@mail.gmail.com>

As in my previous comment, I am not interested in questioning the beliefs of
New Atheists. They are welcome to believe whatever makes them happier.

However, I wish to note that the word "probably" used in this context
reveals a poor understanding of the notion of probability in its rigorous
Bayesian sense, and thus a poor understanding of much of modern science.

--
Giulio Prisco
giulio at gmail.com
(39)3387219799

On Jul 21, 2010 6:45 PM, "Giulio Prisco" <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:

It is certainly milder than other statements I have seen from the same
group of "New Atheists". However, I don't question their convictions
because it is no business of mine. I also don't question their
entitlement to put ads on buses if they can find the money. All I ask
in return is that they extend the same live-and-let-live indifference
to others who may think differently from them.

On Wed, Jul 21, 2010 at 5:57 PM, Joseph Bloch <
seculartranshumanist at gmail.com> wrote: > What's mili...
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100721/208f8394/attachment.html>

From sparge at gmail.com  Wed Jul 21 17:53:16 2010
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 13:53:16 -0400
Subject: [ExI] atheists de-baptize unbelievers:
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimDBlayiXn6uAE_7MW9EH4vt84E_98Igsoaj_Nl@mail.gmail.com>
References: <201007172220.o6HMKY7a002861@andromeda.ziaspace.com> 
	<AANLkTinQVytaEJmvcYiUCBLXtvfsuzQu0vv84ADOtChO@mail.gmail.com> 
	<4C4258EB.9080107@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTinh3oNzBI-7KM3tGOGywoE4h61aNoZTu9CXYg02@mail.gmail.com> 
	<AANLkTil-0pKUHH5ZoU9zmi6GZEX4fD3cY-GJQhMJJGwQ@mail.gmail.com> 
	<AANLkTilh4S3AVxmn1KGumnUk0L87-Qmix-R7HpF4IosJ@mail.gmail.com> 
	<AANLkTil16nzQqto0A4urpj16434wqhSKjX0G2_sIaB7s@mail.gmail.com> 
	<AANLkTilYm9MOc_bzZTeBUGBKFXckYCLnQewgL_-AlZnB@mail.gmail.com> 
	<AANLkTins8wRtfcfhXKaAweck03Bn_Ru1WKxMSZPNsHLx@mail.gmail.com> 
	<AANLkTilLhNdqOFeeXtiy1vNR12e3KttvxlQ0Z2JOS2Mh@mail.gmail.com> 
	<AANLkTinp7r43OtZdyQn_tDEYTfKe-iiysscATuwJTiQm@mail.gmail.com> 
	<AANLkTimf3COVe0vV5gi1brk6GvFSGUoJghPw-hw4DUNb@mail.gmail.com> 
	<AANLkTimDBlayiXn6uAE_7MW9EH4vt84E_98Igsoaj_Nl@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTil0kBdpLYJXe0eWopWxfZIJnqriPvdLLYTzHQDl@mail.gmail.com>

2010/7/21 Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com>

> However, I wish to note that the word "probably" used in this context
> ["There's probably no God."] reveals a poor understanding of the notion of
> probability in its rigorous Bayesian sense, and thus a poor understanding of
> much of modern science.


Why do you think that? Do you think "probably" was intended to mean "its
rigorous Bayesian sense" in that case? Seems likely to me that it was meant
in an informal sense, e.g., synonymous with "likely".

-Dave
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100721/b68a53a5/attachment.html>

From dan_ust at yahoo.com  Wed Jul 21 17:40:24 2010
From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 10:40:24 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Was medical marijuana. On Insurance
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTilZtlG9xuR4_rrSr-jcA0m1PvdF7aq-KbmF3764@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTilbl95wp6ENI5O8MgKt8gyc183Cr8OprNsPTasU@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTilZtlG9xuR4_rrSr-jcA0m1PvdF7aq-KbmF3764@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <265291.69645.qm@web30106.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Yes, the choice isn't between everyone gets what she or he wants or only a 
select few get what they want.

Add to this, we don't have a free market in healthcare. We have basically a 
highly regulated and subsidized?market in it and this has been the case for a 
long, long time. In the US, contrary to the views of many uninformed people, the 
actual government involvement in healthcare has been quite high for decades, 
even surpassing the so called "socialist" nations of Europe in terms of 
percentage of government money devoted to healthcare versus private spending on 
the same. (This goes along with, too, the mislabeling of many European nations 
as socialist, including those in Scandinavia; those particular nations actually 
tend to have less government intervention in the economy than other European 
nations.)

And the issue of force comes in as always. If someone is going to get something 
that she or he wouldn't get via voluntary exchange, this means it's going to 
have to be taken or paid for by someone else. Why should this be allowed or 
advocated? Why is it seen as ethical to use force?

Regards,

Dan


From: Dave Sill <sparge at gmail.com>
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Tue, July 20, 2010 9:50:02 PM
Subject: Re: [ExI] Was medical marijuana. On Insurance


2010/7/20 Colin D <colin.dodson at gmail.com>

May I be so egalitarian as to suggest that perhaps the so-called 'free market' 
isn't the best solution for all problems, and that just maybe everyone who wants 
it deserves suitable and appropriate health-care, regardless of their material 
wealth?

Suggest away. And while you're at it, suggest a way to pay for all that 
top-notch healthcare.

-Dave



      
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100721/9f596493/attachment.html>

From giulio at gmail.com  Wed Jul 21 18:13:18 2010
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 20:13:18 +0200
Subject: [ExI] atheists de-baptize unbelievers:
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTil0kBdpLYJXe0eWopWxfZIJnqriPvdLLYTzHQDl@mail.gmail.com>
References: <201007172220.o6HMKY7a002861@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<AANLkTinQVytaEJmvcYiUCBLXtvfsuzQu0vv84ADOtChO@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C4258EB.9080107@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTinh3oNzBI-7KM3tGOGywoE4h61aNoZTu9CXYg02@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTil-0pKUHH5ZoU9zmi6GZEX4fD3cY-GJQhMJJGwQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTilh4S3AVxmn1KGumnUk0L87-Qmix-R7HpF4IosJ@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTil16nzQqto0A4urpj16434wqhSKjX0G2_sIaB7s@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTilYm9MOc_bzZTeBUGBKFXckYCLnQewgL_-AlZnB@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTins8wRtfcfhXKaAweck03Bn_Ru1WKxMSZPNsHLx@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTilLhNdqOFeeXtiy1vNR12e3KttvxlQ0Z2JOS2Mh@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinp7r43OtZdyQn_tDEYTfKe-iiysscATuwJTiQm@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimf3COVe0vV5gi1brk6GvFSGUoJghPw-hw4DUNb@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimDBlayiXn6uAE_7MW9EH4vt84E_98Igsoaj_Nl@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTil0kBdpLYJXe0eWopWxfZIJnqriPvdLLYTzHQDl@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikq6bAkFBOQaTKxtlcZCQGM4JkUOo119fwQwdfK@mail.gmail.com>

I also think it was intended in the informal sense of "likely", but I could
not resist the temptation to say something bad about them;-)

--
Giulio Prisco
giulio at gmail.com
(39)3387219799

On Jul 21, 2010 7:54 PM, "Dave Sill" <sparge at gmail.com> wrote:

2010/7/21 Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com>

> However, I wish to note that the word "probably" used in this context
> ["There's probably no God."] reveals a poor understanding of the notion of
> probability in its rigorous Bayesian sense, and thus a poor understanding of
> much of modern science.


Why do you think that? Do you think "probably" was intended to mean "its
rigorous Bayesian sense" in that case? Seems likely to me that it was meant
in an informal sense, e.g., synonymous with "likely".

-Dave


_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100721/d3856f33/attachment.html>

From thespike at satx.rr.com  Wed Jul 21 18:25:05 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 13:25:05 -0500
Subject: [ExI] hippie hippie shake
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTilQ8WP_sRsuPpAhYnTUlzg7HkWTLbD_asdvfw9b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <221122.7014.qm@web114415.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>	<68847.28387.qm@web81505.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<AANLkTilQ8WP_sRsuPpAhYnTUlzg7HkWTLbD_asdvfw9b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4C473B81.6020506@satx.rr.com>

On 7/21/2010 9:57 AM, Stefano Vaj wrote:

[spike jones:]
>> Damien Broderick was the first close friend I ever had who was a genuine "hippie" type, and I didn't meet him until I was in my late 30s.

> Really? Funny, I have always fancied him more of the skinhead kind. :-D

Ha! Far from it--although these days, alas, my head does display an 
unseemly amount of skin. For the young me (no hippie either), check this 
out:

<http://www.amazon.com/Climbing-Mount-Implausible-Evolution-Science/dp/1434457796>

Damien Broderick




From pharos at gmail.com  Wed Jul 21 18:42:59 2010
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 19:42:59 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Was medical marijuana. On Insurance
In-Reply-To: <265291.69645.qm@web30106.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <AANLkTilbl95wp6ENI5O8MgKt8gyc183Cr8OprNsPTasU@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTilZtlG9xuR4_rrSr-jcA0m1PvdF7aq-KbmF3764@mail.gmail.com>
	<265291.69645.qm@web30106.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimn9QvKZkJ1mxVoHtHMY-XODMy_GyXxKjZNcLBz@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/21/10, Dan  wrote:
<snip>
> And the issue of force comes in as always. If someone is going to get
> something that she or he wouldn't get via voluntary exchange, this means
> it's going to have to be taken or paid for by someone else. Why should this
> be allowed or advocated? Why is it seen as ethical to use force?
>
>

Because you live in a human society. The usual solution to the
free-loader problem is to say that everyone who can afford it pays
their share. (It's called taxation).

Paying for just what you want at the time you want it is totally
impracticable for anything beyond trivial expenses.  Your society
(nation) needs major projects funded, some of which you personally
might never use. Others you might not need for another twenty years,
but you will want them built and ready and waiting for you.

On your own desert island, growing your own food, you can do exactly
as you please. But even there you will be paying for things that you
might never need, because they would be nice to have around, just in
case. You might not have time to build them when the need arises.


BillK


From sondheim at panix.com  Wed Jul 21 18:25:47 2010
From: sondheim at panix.com (Alan Sondheim)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 14:25:47 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [ExI] Sarah Palin
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimKceU2agCVq6N81NMSsJt10OzCINxGEEbPGt_o@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTinDA62CsQAEl8Xwd7DXEHo5pVzQ2PFV0LYHdl7R@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTiko4n3wRoVExxBOkuF6IsxDADV7F-0nesPWt7OP@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikSD76Dq8B8cX9LCgFEBhdcNElee6C54bkufOtC@mail.gmail.com>
	<D1F079F1-39D9-455B-9796-EE6065A4E29E@bellsouth.net>
	<20100721070005.GA2406@ofb.net>
	<AANLkTimKceU2agCVq6N81NMSsJt10OzCINxGEEbPGt_o@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.NEB.2.00.1007211424090.7186@panix1.panix.com>


Check out the old USSR. There's violence in all of us; the list's response 
to Muslims is fairly violent itself. For what it's worth I live in 
Brooklyn; there's a mosque and Arab section a block away on Atlantic 
Avenue and Flatbush and they're far better neighbors than the Christian 
church on the corner.

- Alan


On Wed, 21 Jul 2010, Dave Sill wrote:

> On Wed, Jul 21, 2010 at 3:00 AM, Damien Sullivan <phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu>
> wrote:
>       Some people who are Muslim are committing atrocities. ?So are
>       some
>       people who are Jews, or Christians, or Hindus, or atheist.
> 
> 
> The question is whether these people are committing these atrocities because
> of their beliefs. If so, then those beliefs are to blame, whether or not
> everyone agrees that these people are being true to their faiths.
> 
> Can you really supply examples of atheism-motivated atrocities?
> 
> -Dave
> 
> 
>


==
email archive: http://sondheim.rupamsunyata.org/
webpage http://www.alansondheim.org
music archive: http://www.espdisk.com/alansondheim/
==

From dan_ust at yahoo.com  Wed Jul 21 19:12:28 2010
From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 12:12:28 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Was medical marijuana. On Insurance
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimn9QvKZkJ1mxVoHtHMY-XODMy_GyXxKjZNcLBz@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTilbl95wp6ENI5O8MgKt8gyc183Cr8OprNsPTasU@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTilZtlG9xuR4_rrSr-jcA0m1PvdF7aq-KbmF3764@mail.gmail.com>
	<265291.69645.qm@web30106.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<AANLkTimn9QvKZkJ1mxVoHtHMY-XODMy_GyXxKjZNcLBz@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <163955.18318.qm@web30101.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I disagree with this caricature of the free society. One can live in society, 
cooperate with others, mutually benefit others, and not use coercion. This does 
for large projects.?(How is that only those who happen to use force somehow can 
carry these out? How on Earth do people like you and me do things like save up 
for holiday or a new laptop? What do we do? Call for the cops to crack some 
heads so we'll have enough mullah to pay for this?)

And the idea that taxation is necessarily is akin to the idea that some people 
must serve others -- i.e., slavery -- otherwise not all the needed work or big 
projects will get?done.

Regards,

Dan


----- Original Message ----
From: BillK <pharos at gmail.com>
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Wed, July 21, 2010 2:42:59 PM
Subject: Re: [ExI] Was medical marijuana. On Insurance

On 7/21/10, Dan? wrote:
<snip>
> And the issue of force comes in as always. If someone is going to get
> something that she or he wouldn't get via voluntary exchange, this means
> it's going to have to be taken or paid for by someone else. Why should this
> be allowed or advocated? Why is it seen as ethical to use force?
>
>

Because you live in a human society. The usual solution to the
free-loader problem is to say that everyone who can afford it pays
their share. (It's called taxation).

Paying for just what you want at the time you want it is totally
impracticable for anything beyond trivial expenses.? Your society
(nation) needs major projects funded, some of which you personally
might never use. Others you might not need for another twenty years,
but you will want them built and ready and waiting for you.

On your own desert island, growing your own food, you can do exactly
as you please. But even there you will be paying for things that you
might never need, because they would be nice to have around, just in
case. You might not have time to build them when the need arises.

BillK
_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


      



From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu  Wed Jul 21 19:12:45 2010
From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 12:12:45 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Sarah Palin
In-Reply-To: <283907.88603.qm@web27007.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.1258.1279650535.10820.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<283907.88603.qm@web27007.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20100721191245.GA23426@ofb.net>

On Wed, Jul 21, 2010 at 11:19:43AM +0000, Tom Nowell wrote:
> John Clark wrote :"If every one of the 19 hijackers who murdered
> nearly 3000 people on 911 were Italian I'll bet the very next day
> there would be huge demonstrations of italians showing how appalled
> they were, the same goes for Irish or Japanese or any other ethnic
> group" (and then mentions the exception of what Spike would call
> non-quakers).

Irgun and the Stern Gang: Zionist terrorists who did things like blow up
hotels and massacre villages, or the founding fathers and future Prime
Ministers of Israel?

-xx- Damien X-) 


From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu  Wed Jul 21 19:24:44 2010
From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 12:24:44 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Was medical marijuana. On Insurance
In-Reply-To: <265291.69645.qm@web30106.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <AANLkTilbl95wp6ENI5O8MgKt8gyc183Cr8OprNsPTasU@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTilZtlG9xuR4_rrSr-jcA0m1PvdF7aq-KbmF3764@mail.gmail.com>
	<265291.69645.qm@web30106.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20100721192444.GB23426@ofb.net>

On Wed, Jul 21, 2010 at 10:40:24AM -0700, Dan wrote:

>    been the case for a long, long time. In the US, contrary to the views
>    of many uninformed people, the actual government involvement in
>    healthcare has been quite high for decades, even surpassing the so
>    called "socialist" nations of Europe in terms of percentage of
>    government money devoted to healthcare versus private spending on the

http://mindstalk.net/socialhealth/financial.html

A few years old, but 44% of US health care spending was public, lower
than any other listed country, even Switzerland.

The US gov't spends more actual dollars, per capita, on health care than
many countries do in total spending, but that just goes to show how
overpriced US health care is.

>    same. (This goes along with, too, the mislabeling of many European
>    nations as socialist, including those in Scandinavia; those particular
>    nations actually tend to have less government intervention in the
>    economy than other European nations.)

Sort of true.  A relatively right-wing Swede I know noted that Sweden
sort of has socialism for people -- free health care, education, child
care, etc. -- and more laissez faire for business, e.g. letting Saab
fail.  US policies tend more toward socialism for big business --
subsidies, bailouts, protectionism -- and laissez faire for individuals:
letting them drown in medical bankruptcies, making them fund their own
education, skimping on public transit, discouraging mortgage holders
from walking away or renegotiating the way a business would.

So if socialism is gov't interference with production, there might be
less there, though there'll still be labor laws.  (Not always minimum
wage laws, but powerful unions and collective bargaining fills a similar
role.)  Of course, to a lot of Americans these days, socialism is the
government doing anything they don't approve of, i.e. anything beyond
the military or helping they themselves out.

Tangentially, in the US, we tell people to cook pork fully to avoid
trichinosis.  In Europe, the government inspects pigs to make sure they
don't have trichinosis, meaning people can safely enjoy rare pork.  This
seems illustrative, somehow.

>    And the issue of force comes in as always. If someone is going to get
>    something that she or he wouldn't get via voluntary exchange, this
>    means it's going to have to be taken or paid for by someone else. Why
>    should this be allowed or advocated? Why is it seen as ethical to use
>    force?

"mutual coercion, mutually agreed upon"

-xx- Damien X-) 


From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu  Wed Jul 21 19:43:57 2010
From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 12:43:57 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Religions and violence [Was Re:  Sarah Palin]
In-Reply-To: <201007211513.o6LFDcxv019859@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <201007211513.o6LFDcxv019859@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <20100721194356.GC23426@ofb.net>

On Wed, Jul 21, 2010 at 09:46:46AM -0500, Max More wrote:

> point -- there *is* something about the Muslim religion that commands 
> Muslims to go out and kill the infidel. Most Muslims don't do that, but 

Many Muslims seems to disagree about that very point, as opposed to
simply not following their religion.  And historically... for centuries
Christians were rather prone to forcible conversion of the heathens,
while for a long time, Muslims coexisted with Jews and Christians rather
better than Christians did with anyone else.  If this has changed
recently, which it seems to, perhaps the reasons are not fundamental to
either religion.

Jews rarely had much power, but in the brief Maccabean period, they seem
to have forcibly converted a neighboring kingdom, Edom.  Or conquered
and forced to live by Jewish laws, at any rate.  Wikipedia says the
Pharisees objecting to annexation, showing dissent even then.

> It reminds me of the great majority of Catholic students I taught in the 
> Los Angeles areas some years ago. In my Philosophy of Religion class, I 
> would ask if they were Catholic, central to which is the view that the 
> Pope is infallible on matters of religions (ex cathedra). After affirming 
> that, they would nevertheless say they disagreed with the Pope on sex 
> before marriage and wearing of condoms.

Papal infallibility can't be that central, seeing as it was put forth in
1870.  It's only been invoked on a couple of items: the Immaculate
Conception and the Assumption of Mary.  Sex not included.

More relevant and central is the infallibility of the *Church*,
ecumenical councils and widespread bishopric teaching, under some
circumstances.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infallibility_of_the_Church
and the supposed "submission of the intellect and will"[1] by the faithful
to even the fallible magisterium.

Immorality of pornography is apparently infallible.  Birth control might
be too.  But this would be less because the Pope says so and more
because all the bishops have always said so.

[1] 'submission'... just like the meaning of 'Islam'

-xx- Damien X-) 


From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Wed Jul 21 19:54:03 2010
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 12:54:03 -0700
Subject: [ExI] New IP thread
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikP83zGsweOoQEajxa2cPsR4lkxencW-lqkIGzh@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTikZbK59Ih7sL03Hascx_9AXPbueZWjS3_SBK3pZ@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimUezfBnP0DjEACxXWeCF32W4SeChi-ag47usSd@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimEWdytBk-3dZUbP509w5yaDiQK6rL-UxOUAugx@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimw_eEIQnEf7vpt9T0loR_oi1y1rTFR-nGT7wwK@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikplrmihs6DP6pqIyjW5KswM9OTQH1ys_CvZYm5@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikP83zGsweOoQEajxa2cPsR4lkxencW-lqkIGzh@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTik6HN5eiznfgTDtVnowqsbpFUs+YR6abW6g0mon@mail.gmail.com>

2010/7/20 Ryan Rawson <ryanobjc at gmail.com>:
> Yes I am against what you are arguing for. Ultimately its unrealistic
> anyways.... if I read your words I have copied them into my neural net where
> they will continue to live on and affect future output of mine.... have I
> just made an unauthorized derivative work by criticing your emails? Will you
> seek to sue me and repossess portions of my brain? Or have them erased
> perhaps?
>

###  (First - a technical note - could you please avoid top-posting?)

No, all my posts here are provided with the implicit understanding
that copying them into your brain, computer, printouts, etc., is
authorized. Reposting without attribution is not authorized.
Commercial use is not authorized. Thinking about them is in fact
warmly encouraged. These are the customary IP rights I claim to my
posts.

Now, are you really against a general prohibition of unauthorized
manipulation and copying of thoughts? Really? So you are not against
somebody breaking into your computer and making copies of everything
you have there? You think you should not have legal recourse against a
person who (without causing any other damage), tricks you into a
hypnotic trance (perhaps using some technological means of overcoming
your conscious defenses), finds all your secrets and implants hypnotic
suggestions, perhaphs even completely harmless ones? Is it really what
you claim? Did you just copy my paragraph into your mind, or did you
actually think about it?

Rafal


From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Wed Jul 21 19:56:18 2010
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 12:56:18 -0700
Subject: [ExI] hippie hippie shake
In-Reply-To: <4C473B81.6020506@satx.rr.com>
References: <221122.7014.qm@web114415.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<68847.28387.qm@web81505.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<AANLkTilQ8WP_sRsuPpAhYnTUlzg7HkWTLbD_asdvfw9b@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C473B81.6020506@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinNu45CuU-DmA9npUBDhz2Yqasti-85B4VoYMuq@mail.gmail.com>

Hey, that's no hippie!  It's a young academic/intellectual giving us
his classic "intense gaze."

John  ; )

On 7/21/10, Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com> wrote:
> On 7/21/2010 9:57 AM, Stefano Vaj wrote:
>
> [spike jones:]
>>> Damien Broderick was the first close friend I ever had who was a genuine
>>> "hippie" type, and I didn't meet him until I was in my late 30s.
>
>> Really? Funny, I have always fancied him more of the skinhead kind. :-D
>
> Ha! Far from it--although these days, alas, my head does display an
> unseemly amount of skin. For the young me (no hippie either), check this
> out:
>
> <http://www.amazon.com/Climbing-Mount-Implausible-Evolution-Science/dp/1434457796>
>
> Damien Broderick
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>


From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Wed Jul 21 20:26:43 2010
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 13:26:43 -0700
Subject: [ExI] New IP thread
In-Reply-To: <20100720192451.GA6646@ofb.net>
References: <AANLkTikZbK59Ih7sL03Hascx_9AXPbueZWjS3_SBK3pZ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100720192451.GA6646@ofb.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikP1tQt-JUQdeitqaWUmH9iNROc2D8JqXdN3Yzk@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jul 20, 2010 at 12:24 PM, Damien Sullivan
<phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu> wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 19, 2010 at 03:56:25AM -0400, Rafal Smigrodzki wrote:
>
>> I can only advise to try to approach the problem of IP not from a
>> first-person perspective but to start with a comparative analysis of
>> efficiency of various hypothetical laws, given a range of plausible
>
> Efficiency at what?

### Achievement of goals. See definition of efficiency.

---------------------------------------

>
> IP laws encourage the creation of patentable and copyrightable items, so
> are efficient at that. ?But they introduce inefficiencies --
> increasingly large inefficiencies -- in the use of ideas, including
> derivation from old ideas.

### No, properly used IP does not inhibit derivation from old ideas.
IP laws require disclosure of what is claimed, thus actually enabling
derivation where otherwise ideas would be kept secret, or would not be
generated in the first place.

-------------------------------------------
>
>> P.S. An interesting thought occurred to me - compare a society where
>> all thoughts of every individual are open to control by other
>> individuals (unless specifically protected from external control), vs.
>> a society where all individual thoughts are protected from other
>> individuals (unless specifically excluded from protection). Draw
>> parallels with operating systems that allow any program to execute any
>> operations on the code of another program, unless specifically
>> proscribed, vs. systems that generally prevent programs from modifying
>> each other, unless specifically allowed. Which operating system is
>> more robust? This is a good starting point to thinking about the deep
>> underpinnings of IP law.
>
> No, this is comparing apples and rocks. ?IP has nothing to do with the
> protection of "all individual thoughts", especially not in a way
> relevant to computer security. ?A world without IP is a world where
> public ideas can be copied freely, not a world where people can control
> the thoughts in my brain. ?We're takling about publication, not
> telepathy and mind control.

### The starting point in thinking about novel ideas should not be
currently existing IP law. Looking at the law should be the end point
of a discussion that starts with deeper notions. And yes, these
include analysis of stability of minds and computer programs under
various security/IP regimes.

Once you conclude that in the interest of stability thoughts have to
be generally protected, you have to take this as the default position
in any decisions about manipulation of thoughts. Should somebody claim
that unathorized copying of thoughts is in some specific situation the
proper course of action, the burden of proof is on him. If you say
that reading your thoughts against your will (which is already to some
extent possible with fMRI) is wrong, you can't say that reading
somebody's book against his will is OK - unless you can adduce some
specific arguments.

Can you?

Rafal



From thespike at satx.rr.com  Wed Jul 21 20:40:27 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 15:40:27 -0500
Subject: [ExI] hippie hippie shake
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinNu45CuU-DmA9npUBDhz2Yqasti-85B4VoYMuq@mail.gmail.com>
References: <221122.7014.qm@web114415.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>	<68847.28387.qm@web81505.mail.mud.yahoo.com>	<AANLkTilQ8WP_sRsuPpAhYnTUlzg7HkWTLbD_asdvfw9b@mail.gmail.com>	<4C473B81.6020506@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTinNu45CuU-DmA9npUBDhz2Yqasti-85B4VoYMuq@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4C475B3B.4010100@satx.rr.com>

On 7/21/2010 2:56 PM, John Grigg wrote:

> Hey, that's no hippie!  It's a young academic/intellectual

Correct. But some day I must scan some of the pix of me four or five 
years later with loooong hair and lurid flares.

"Those were the days, my friend, we thought they'd never end."

Damien Broderick
"Oh, my friend, we're older but no wiser
"For in our hearts, the dreams are still the same"


From thespike at satx.rr.com  Wed Jul 21 20:48:07 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 15:48:07 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Aussie net filter
In-Reply-To: <AD04338B-C86A-416E-9FDE-A3509620F1D7@cox.net>
References: <AD04338B-C86A-416E-9FDE-A3509620F1D7@cox.net>
Message-ID: <4C475D07.8080808@satx.rr.com>

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/07/21/2960252.htm


Labor's internet filtering policy isn't being discussed in the run-up to the
election but its impact on Australia is significant.

Championed by Minister for Broadband, Communications and the Digital
Economy, Senator Stephen Conroy, the $30million+ filter is being sold by
Labor as an internet block for child pornography, bestiality and extreme
pornography with 'wide ranging support from the Australian public' and 'only
minimal opposition against'.

But after a new, lengthy investigation it transpires that virtually none of
this is true. What Australia will get from this internet filter is a
framework for censorship that doesn't stop "the worst of the worst" but will
absolutely curtail discussion on politically incorrect topics like
euthanasia, safe drug taking and graffiti while banning relatively-tame
adult content.

(etc)



From wingcat at pacbell.net  Wed Jul 21 20:26:18 2010
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 13:26:18 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] New IP thread
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTik6HN5eiznfgTDtVnowqsbpFUs+YR6abW6g0mon@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <838247.6687.qm@web81603.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

--- On Wed, 7/21/10, Rafal Smigrodzki <rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com> wrote:
> From: Rafal Smigrodzki <rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com>
> > Yes I am against what you are arguing for. Ultimately
> its unrealistic
> > anyways.... if I read your words I have copied them
> into my neural net where
> > they will continue to live on and affect future output
> of mine.... have I
> > just made an unauthorized derivative work by criticing
> your emails? Will you
> > seek to sue me and repossess portions of my brain? Or
> have them erased
> > perhaps?
> 
> No, all my posts here are provided with the implicit
> understanding
> that copying them into your brain, computer, printouts,
> etc., is
> authorized. Reposting without attribution is not
> authorized.
> Commercial use is not authorized. Thinking about them is in
> fact
> warmly encouraged. These are the customary IP rights I
> claim to my
> posts.

That's fine for you, but what about someone who makes posts
and then tries to claim a far more restrictive IP licensing
scheme?  For instance, that by reading these words you agree
to become my slave for life (including any continuation on
alternate neural substrates or post-cryogenic revival)?

If one is allowed to dictate one's own IP terms, that is a
logical possibility.  Of course, as you note, one's thoughts
are one's own, even when shared via any medium, and one
should probably have some rights to them (depending on
context).  The trick is to find a balance between these
extremes.


From max at maxmore.com  Wed Jul 21 21:10:58 2010
From: max at maxmore.com (max at maxmore.com)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 16:10:58 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Religions and violence [Was Re:  Sarah Palin]
In-Reply-To: <20100721194356.GC23426@ofb.net>
References: <201007211513.o6LFDcxv019859@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<20100721194356.GC23426@ofb.net>
Message-ID: <20100721161058.ku3wqeoypgcckgsg@webmail.maxmore.com>

Gosh, I?m glad we?re discussing the fine details of Catholic theology  
here. :-)

Quoting Damien Sullivan <phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu>:

> Many Muslims seems to disagree about that very point, as opposed to
> Papal infallibility can't be that central, seeing as it was put forth in
> 1870.

It was first put forth *formally* in 1870, but it had been around for  
many centuries before that. See the Wikipedia source you?re looking  
at, under ?Middle Ages?. For instance: ?The infallibility of the pope  
was thus formally defined in 1870, although the tradition behind this  
view goes back much further.?

The student beliefs I mentioned may not in contradiction to an ex  
cathedra declaration, then (except, perhaps, birth control). But they  
still in conflict with the declarations of the highest authority in  
the Catholic Church, and with the magisterium. You could probably also  
substitute "pornography" for "sex before marriage" for most of them.  
So you?re technically correct, but I think my point remains intact.  
The students *did* say they accepted the Pope as the highest  
scriptural authority, and yet maintained their (conveniently) contrary  
beliefs.

Let's not get into the difference between "de fide tenenda" and "de  
fide credenda"  teachings...

The main point is: Do you agree with the Muslims who claim that their  
highest religious authorities and texts do *not* tell them to fight  
the infidel?

Max






From thespike at satx.rr.com  Wed Jul 21 21:58:22 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 16:58:22 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Religions and violence [Was Re:  Sarah Palin]
In-Reply-To: <20100721161058.ku3wqeoypgcckgsg@webmail.maxmore.com>
References: <201007211513.o6LFDcxv019859@andromeda.ziaspace.com>	<20100721194356.GC23426@ofb.net>
	<20100721161058.ku3wqeoypgcckgsg@webmail.maxmore.com>
Message-ID: <4C476D7E.7060007@satx.rr.com>

On 7/21/2010 4:10 PM, max at maxmore.com wrote:

> Do you agree with the Muslims who claim that their highest religious
> authorities and texts do *not* tell them to fight the infidel?

The texts seem (as usual) to be internally inconsistent, maybe because 
their originating context has been eroded away or glossed over.

Damien Broderick


From rtomek at ceti.pl  Wed Jul 21 22:16:24 2010
From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola)
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 00:16:24 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] Religions and violence [Was Re:  Sarah Palin]
In-Reply-To: <20100721161058.ku3wqeoypgcckgsg@webmail.maxmore.com>
References: <201007211513.o6LFDcxv019859@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<20100721194356.GC23426@ofb.net>
	<20100721161058.ku3wqeoypgcckgsg@webmail.maxmore.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1007212321160.16734@tau.ceti.pl>

On Wed, 21 Jul 2010, max at maxmore.com wrote:

> Gosh, I?m glad we?re discussing the fine details of Catholic theology here.
> :-)
> 
[...]
> The main point is: Do you agree with the Muslims who claim that their highest
> religious authorities and texts do *not* tell them to fight the infidel?
> 
> Max

I think it's a bit hard to agree or disagree, unless one reads "the text" 
in original, i.e. in Arabic language. From what I've heard so far, reading 
a translation "does not count", whatever this really means (not sure yet). 
As of authorities, I guess it is same as the case with Catholic religious 
authorities, they tend to disagree (more or less) even with their previous 
manifestations. So it's like a megamarket, which sells books, condoms and 
pistols (and many more items). Nowadays they sell, say, books, but they 
still have full stores of things being sold 50 and 200 years ago, they 
have never been invalidated, they've just became dusted and forgotten. 
Still, any willing client can go to the back of the shop and find some 
toys for himself and bunch of his comrades.

So, the subject is wide and deep, and I guess proponents of quite 
different points of view can find something to support themselves. Before 
(dis)agreeing with "the text" I would have to learn Arabic. And since 
there are at least two major interpretations of "the text" (one is 
peaceful and the other is not), I would have to read the source myself, 
anyway.

Having said all this, I must add that I believe majority of Muslims is 
peacefull and ok. At least in a sense that they don't want to fight 
religious wars, which of course means they can still fight for some other 
reason. Religious wars, anyway, killing the infidels, well, heh, if they 
are rich... I suspect every religion has a small text somewhere, which 
says that God does not love rich infidels.

Maybe I am not clear enough, so we can reverse the situation and question. 
I know there are "doves" and "hawks" in US, both have their "sacred texts" 
(some shared) and authorities - now, question is, do American "texts" and 
"authorities" tell their citizens to go to war or the other way? And the 
answer is a bit complicated, isn't it?

:-)

Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.      **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home    **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...      **
**                                                                 **
** Tomasz Rola          mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com             **


From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Wed Jul 21 22:19:55 2010
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 15:19:55 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Aussie net filter
In-Reply-To: <4C475D07.8080808@satx.rr.com>
References: <AD04338B-C86A-416E-9FDE-A3509620F1D7@cox.net>
	<4C475D07.8080808@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTilNzH3-W30CGxZ4tHU59i6AC5yfXv96kHkCOsa8@mail.gmail.com>

Damien, along with this Aussie development, we should also discuss
"The Great Firewall of China."

http://www.theage.com.au/technology/the-great-firewall-of-china-20100324-qwo9.html

http://www.greatfirewallofchina.org/

John

On 7/21/10, Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com> wrote:
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/07/21/2960252.htm
>
>
> Labor's internet filtering policy isn't being discussed in the run-up to the
> election but its impact on Australia is significant.
>
> Championed by Minister for Broadband, Communications and the Digital
> Economy, Senator Stephen Conroy, the $30million+ filter is being sold by
> Labor as an internet block for child pornography, bestiality and extreme
> pornography with 'wide ranging support from the Australian public' and 'only
> minimal opposition against'.
>
> But after a new, lengthy investigation it transpires that virtually none of
> this is true. What Australia will get from this internet filter is a
> framework for censorship that doesn't stop "the worst of the worst" but will
> absolutely curtail discussion on politically incorrect topics like
> euthanasia, safe drug taking and graffiti while banning relatively-tame
> adult content.
>
> (etc)
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>


From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Wed Jul 21 22:12:57 2010
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 15:12:57 -0700
Subject: [ExI] hippie hippie shake
In-Reply-To: <4C475B3B.4010100@satx.rr.com>
References: <221122.7014.qm@web114415.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<68847.28387.qm@web81505.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<AANLkTilQ8WP_sRsuPpAhYnTUlzg7HkWTLbD_asdvfw9b@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C473B81.6020506@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTinNu45CuU-DmA9npUBDhz2Yqasti-85B4VoYMuq@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C475B3B.4010100@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinJuAfTY0-ltINQN4GXdrcQv1Xc3uC7v4gXsjus@mail.gmail.com>

Damien Broderick wrote:
Correct. But some day I must scan some of the pix of me four or five
years later with loooong hair and lurid flares.
>>

I can't wait to see them!  : )  And I bet I'm not the only one...

I do wonder when we will have the next 60's style "sex, drugs, and
rock n' roll, turn-on, tune-in, and drop-out," and flowerpower, too"
countercultural revolution...  I think it will be brought on by
technological advancements, such as a total subjugation of std's,
nanotech to provide basic needs (hippies with an "anything box," oh,
boy!), and neurotech to provide even more amazing "trips."  Oh, and of
course an establishment to rebel against, that they consider very
unfair and tyrannical will be a key element!

Damien, the one I envision will be much more memorable than even the
last one that you went through...

John


On 7/21/10, Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com> wrote:
> On 7/21/2010 2:56 PM, John Grigg wrote:
>
>> Hey, that's no hippie!  It's a young academic/intellectual
>
> Correct. But some day I must scan some of the pix of me four or five
> years later with loooong hair and lurid flares.
>
> "Those were the days, my friend, we thought they'd never end."
>
> Damien Broderick
> "Oh, my friend, we're older but no wiser
> "For in our hearts, the dreams are still the same"
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>


From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Wed Jul 21 22:23:58 2010
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 15:23:58 -0700
Subject: [ExI] NYT: The Technocracy Boom
Message-ID: <AANLkTimCN9bWViyldqI0xz51EwQqirS4EylYDJcY3GHH@mail.gmail.com>

David Brooks in the NYT: The Technocracy Boom...

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/20/opinion/20brooks.html

John


From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Wed Jul 21 22:26:19 2010
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 15:26:19 -0700
Subject: [ExI] New IP thread
In-Reply-To: <838247.6687.qm@web81603.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <AANLkTik6HN5eiznfgTDtVnowqsbpFUs+YR6abW6g0mon@mail.gmail.com>
	<838247.6687.qm@web81603.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinSsPAXCEnJGUN4DTMujAH-PFfgFVp3UVwQGBwp@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jul 21, 2010 at 1:26 PM, Adrian Tymes <wingcat at pacbell.net> wrote:
> --- On Wed, 7/21/10, Rafal Smigrodzki <rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com> wrote:
>> From: Rafal Smigrodzki <rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com>
>> > Yes I am against what you are arguing for. Ultimately
>> its unrealistic
>> > anyways.... if I read your words I have copied them
>> into my neural net where
>> > they will continue to live on and affect future output
>> of mine.... have I
>> > just made an unauthorized derivative work by criticing
>> your emails? Will you
>> > seek to sue me and repossess portions of my brain? Or
>> have them erased
>> > perhaps?
>>
>> No, all my posts here are provided with the implicit
>> understanding
>> that copying them into your brain, computer, printouts,
>> etc., is
>> authorized. Reposting without attribution is not
>> authorized.
>> Commercial use is not authorized. Thinking about them is in
>> fact
>> warmly encouraged. These are the customary IP rights I
>> claim to my
>> posts.
>
> That's fine for you, but what about someone who makes posts
> and then tries to claim a far more restrictive IP licensing
> scheme? ?For instance, that by reading these words you agree
> to become my slave for life (including any continuation on
> alternate neural substrates or post-cryogenic revival)?

### I am not dictating my own IP terms, merely articulating the
customary rights implicitly assumed on this and many other lists.
Persons who post here implicitly agree not to claim that reading their
posts is grounds for enslavement.

>
> If one is allowed to dictate one's own IP terms, that is a
> logical possibility. ?Of course, as you note, one's thoughts
> are one's own, even when shared via any medium, and one
> should probably have some rights to them (depending on
> context). ?The trick is to find a balance between these
> extremes.

### Indeed. That's what I am suggesting - unauthorized copying of
thoughts should be prohibited ... but of course voluntary disclosure
of thoughts in certain defined situations constitutes authorization
for various forms of copying, in accordance with whatever local rules
pertain the situation. So we have a general rule "no copies unless
allowed" and other rules saying "this voluntary act authorizes certain
copies" - the rules are congruent, and together they provide for a
stable system of exchange of ideas.

What IP-deniers say boils down to claiming that any act of disclosure
of information automatically authorizes copying, even if the
disclosure is explicitly accompanied by restrictions on use of the
information. They deny that voluntary participation in the exchange of
information may be accompanied by legitimate limitations on some
further uses of that informantion - but only when it suits them. When
they want to read somebody's book, see a movie or use an invention
without paying, it's "information must be free". Of course, if the
tables are turned, and somebody in real life misuses information
*they* provided, they will demand "privacy".

Rafal



From max at maxmore.com  Wed Jul 21 22:42:53 2010
From: max at maxmore.com (max at maxmore.com)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 17:42:53 -0500
Subject: [ExI] NYT: The Technocracy Boom
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimCN9bWViyldqI0xz51EwQqirS4EylYDJcY3GHH@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTimCN9bWViyldqI0xz51EwQqirS4EylYDJcY3GHH@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20100721174253.wkcaeng3kw84s08w@webmail.maxmore.com>

Reading that piece, and even more the replies to it (especially those  
selected by the editors) really makes me despair. The  
"technoprogressives" like to make fun of those who want to leave this  
planet and its problematic accumulated institutions behind, but this  
piece makes me want to join their ranks. I continue to be amazed at  
people saying that we need even more government and more complex  
regulation because markets have failed. They really believe that US  
health care and financial institutions were unregulated.

I feel sick.

Achieving radical life extension must remain the top priority. After  
that, I'm more inclined to think that developing cheaper space  
colonization tech should be number 2. (Escaping into cyberspace is  
much cheaper, but controlling forces can easily seize the computers on  
which you run your freer societies.)

Since I lack the skills to do much about those priorities (other than  
to communicate their urgency to others), I will focus on another  
priority (in some ways surely the real #1 priority): devising ways to  
get institutions and individuals to make make better decisions.

Max


Quoting John Grigg <possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com>:

> David Brooks in the NYT: The Technocracy Boom...
>
> http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/20/opinion/20brooks.html
>
> John
> _______________________________________________





From pharos at gmail.com  Wed Jul 21 22:58:43 2010
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 23:58:43 +0100
Subject: [ExI] NYT: The Technocracy Boom
In-Reply-To: <20100721174253.wkcaeng3kw84s08w@webmail.maxmore.com>
References: <AANLkTimCN9bWViyldqI0xz51EwQqirS4EylYDJcY3GHH@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100721174253.wkcaeng3kw84s08w@webmail.maxmore.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimX1g_5maQ9IEx_MaaEaCceGeRYV3ccFRtnTq2Q@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/21/10, max wrote:
> I continue to be amazed at people saying that we need even more
> government and more complex regulation because markets have failed. They
> really believe that US health care and financial institutions were
> unregulated.
>
>


Well, I think we're all agreed that something went wrong.

Regulatory capture by big business is the big problem I see.

Not much point in having regulations when the regulators are bribed to
turn a blind eye and not do their job and the big businesses are 'too
big to fail' so must be handed billions in bailouts by the captured
government.


BillK


From msd001 at gmail.com  Wed Jul 21 22:59:08 2010
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 18:59:08 -0400
Subject: [ExI] NYT: The Technocracy Boom
In-Reply-To: <20100721174253.wkcaeng3kw84s08w@webmail.maxmore.com>
References: <AANLkTimCN9bWViyldqI0xz51EwQqirS4EylYDJcY3GHH@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100721174253.wkcaeng3kw84s08w@webmail.maxmore.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTilMREidwUatJn6_oJDxbeh9gMv0iG-relP6RcjZ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jul 21, 2010 at 6:42 PM,  <max at maxmore.com> wrote:
> Since I lack the skills to do much about those priorities (other than to
> communicate their urgency to others), I will focus on another priority (in
> some ways surely the real #1 priority): devising ways to get institutions
> and individuals to make make better decisions.

a daunting task.


From msd001 at gmail.com  Wed Jul 21 23:04:28 2010
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 19:04:28 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Sarah Palin
In-Reply-To: <5721734D-50D1-46ED-9A78-0C0EE51343C9@bellsouth.net>
References: <AANLkTinDA62CsQAEl8Xwd7DXEHo5pVzQ2PFV0LYHdl7R@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTiko4n3wRoVExxBOkuF6IsxDADV7F-0nesPWt7OP@mail.gmail.com>
	<5721734D-50D1-46ED-9A78-0C0EE51343C9@bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTik9qaAxj1PT1fx-1ooqIHiwlGDHS5M9W1TToe9I@mail.gmail.com>

2010/7/20 John Clark <jonkc at bellsouth.net>:
> I'M NOT BUYING THAT LOAD OF HORSE MANURE!

You changed animals from your normal proclamation of bovine excrement?


From max at maxmore.com  Wed Jul 21 23:38:44 2010
From: max at maxmore.com (max at maxmore.com)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 18:38:44 -0500
Subject: [ExI] NYT: The Technocracy Boom
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimX1g_5maQ9IEx_MaaEaCceGeRYV3ccFRtnTq2Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTimCN9bWViyldqI0xz51EwQqirS4EylYDJcY3GHH@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100721174253.wkcaeng3kw84s08w@webmail.maxmore.com>
	<AANLkTimX1g_5maQ9IEx_MaaEaCceGeRYV3ccFRtnTq2Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20100721183844.684jin80ows8cwc4@webmail.maxmore.com>

Bill: I agree that regulatory capture is a big problem. Not as big as  
poor motivation for and structuring of regulation in the first place,  
but still a big problem.

We may disagree on exactly how to apportion blame on government vs.  
private institutions (in so far as that distinction is even valid or  
adequate -- which it really isn't so much), but perhaps we can agree  
on this: It may be really difficult, but we should be focusing on how  
to (a) improve the decision making that leads to regulations (both the  
reasons for them and how they are structured), and (b) how to prevent  
or reduce regulatory capture.

(Both need to be tackled at once, since *some* regulatory capture is  
defensive, and may have beneficial effects. As in: Government -- we're  
going to cut off your limbs. Private bodies -- we would like to be  
involved in which limbs you cut off and how many and how painfully.)

These are enormously difficult issues of political, economic, and  
social design. We tend to focus on hard technological problems and  
solutions, but this kind of "soft" technological problem is really  
critical if we're to make it into a desirable future any time in the  
new few decades.

Projects such as the Center for Deliberative Democracy seem to me to  
be along the right lines, but only a small part of the picture.

Max


Quoting BillK <pharos at gmail.com>:

> Well, I think we're all agreed that something went wrong.
>
> Regulatory capture by big business is the big problem I see.







From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Thu Jul 22 01:04:19 2010
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 18:04:19 -0700
Subject: [ExI] EP was Sarah Palin
Message-ID: <AANLkTilrfJVoUtGuVnyV2Cfrk7s_21l5T-S74txXLBJ7@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jul 21, 2010 at 11:13 AM,  John Clark <jonkc at bellsouth.net> wrote:

> On Jul 21, 2010, at 7:19 AM, Tom Nowell wrote:
>>
>> Well, if the 19 hijackers had been Irish and had instead been detonating bombs in Britain, we could count on a few US politicians proudly announcing their support
>
> Yes, unfortunately you're right about that and is yet another example of how religion poisons everything.

It is well worth considering why we no longer have much concern about the IRA.

It is directly related to individual decisions by Irish women starting
about 40 years ago.

> On Jul 21, 2010, at 3:00 AM, Damien Sullivan wrote:
>
>> "Islam" isn't committing anything, anywhere, and never has.
>
> Bullshit.
>>
>> Some people who are Muslim are committing atrocities. ?So are some
>> people who are Jews, or Christians, or Hindus, or atheist.
>
> Sure atheists have committed atrocities, so have people with mustaches, but unlike Islam they did not commit them because they were atheists or had mustaches. The Islamic people I'm talking about make no secret of why they did those hideous things, they will proudly tell you they were commanded to do so in their holy book and did those murders because of and for Islam. Don't take my word on this, just ask them!

An evolutionary psychology model will tell you differently.  It
doesn't matter what they say because humans rationalize: they have a
"reason" for everything, but the stated reasons are almost never those
which emerge after examining "reasons" in the light of EP and its view
of evolution from the viewpoint of the genes.

> Somebody once said that with or without religion good people will do good things and bad people will do bad things, but for good people to do bad things you need religion, and for that there is none better than Islam.

To the extent that religions have *anything* to do with it, the
Christian religion was the one infesting the dudes who drove the
holders of the Islam religion out of Spain, and turned them back in
the Balkins.  Historical fact.

Though I tend to think of it in terms of cultures rather than
religions.  Arabic and other mid east cultures were genetically
selected in different ways than those of northwest Europe where the
industrial revolution started.  At least that is Gregory Clark's well
researched opinion.

You should also consider that after WW II, the cultures of the mid
east didn't generate the extremes you see today.  Can you answer why?

Keith



From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu  Thu Jul 22 01:22:34 2010
From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 18:22:34 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Religions and violence [Was Re:  Sarah Palin]
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1007212321160.16734@tau.ceti.pl>
References: <201007211513.o6LFDcxv019859@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<20100721194356.GC23426@ofb.net>
	<20100721161058.ku3wqeoypgcckgsg@webmail.maxmore.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1007212321160.16734@tau.ceti.pl>
Message-ID: <20100722012234.GA9655@ofb.net>

On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 12:16:24AM +0200, Tomasz Rola wrote:
> 
> I think it's a bit hard to agree or disagree, unless one reads "the text" 
> in original, i.e. in Arabic language. From what I've heard so far, reading 
> a translation "does not count", whatever this really means (not sure yet). 
> As of authorities, I guess it is same as the case with Catholic religious 

I misread that as Chinese religious authorities; despite being wrong,
I'll share today's link anyway:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=128628514&sc=tw
on female imams and mosques in China.

-xx- Damien X-) 


From swestrup at gmail.com  Thu Jul 22 00:08:42 2010
From: swestrup at gmail.com (Stirling Westrup)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 20:08:42 -0400
Subject: [ExI] NYT: The Technocracy Boom
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTilMREidwUatJn6_oJDxbeh9gMv0iG-relP6RcjZ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTimCN9bWViyldqI0xz51EwQqirS4EylYDJcY3GHH@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100721174253.wkcaeng3kw84s08w@webmail.maxmore.com>
	<AANLkTilMREidwUatJn6_oJDxbeh9gMv0iG-relP6RcjZ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTik9IPEYIc5aN_X-bXvp602U3bLSccOmsHUSDVf7@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jul 21, 2010 at 6:59 PM, Mike Dougherty <msd001 at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 21, 2010 at 6:42 PM, ?<max at maxmore.com> wrote:
>> Since I lack the skills to do much about those priorities (other than to
>> communicate their urgency to others), I will focus on another priority (in
>> some ways surely the real #1 priority): devising ways to get institutions
>> and individuals to make make better decisions.
>
> a daunting task.

Yes, it is, but lately I've been thinking that maybe the way to do
this is with games. The 16-25 year old of today is the CEO of tomorrow
and most young adults play video games.

So, I've been thinking about the possibilities inherent in creating
complex video games in which the route to success is not fast reflexes
but an ability to plan for the future, see through self-serving
agendas and avoid thinking biases that can lead one astray. The hope
is that the skills taught in the games will carry over to real life.

-- 
Stirling Westrup
Programmer, Entrepreneur.
https://www.linkedin.com/e/fpf/77228
http://www.linkedin.com/in/swestrup
http://technaut.livejournal.com



From patrickkmclaren at gmail.com  Thu Jul 22 00:55:49 2010
From: patrickkmclaren at gmail.com (Patrick McLaren)
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 10:55:49 +1000
Subject: [ExI] Aussie net filter
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTilNzH3-W30CGxZ4tHU59i6AC5yfXv96kHkCOsa8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AD04338B-C86A-416E-9FDE-A3509620F1D7@cox.net>
	<4C475D07.8080808@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTilNzH3-W30CGxZ4tHU59i6AC5yfXv96kHkCOsa8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikDey5YRCDnO5Tu_0SwjRwXFaHA_RT3Bd-1tVah@mail.gmail.com>

To be honest, I can't see this getting too far into production. I think it's
much more likely our government's technical capability will fall short than
it effectively filtering what they set out to censor.

On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 8:19 AM, John Grigg <possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com>wrote:

> Damien, along with this Aussie development, we should also discuss
> "The Great Firewall of China."
>
>
> http://www.theage.com.au/technology/the-great-firewall-of-china-20100324-qwo9.html
>
> http://www.greatfirewallofchina.org/
>
> John
>
> On 7/21/10, Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com> wrote:
> > http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/07/21/2960252.htm
> >
> >
> > Labor's internet filtering policy isn't being discussed in the run-up to
> the
> > election but its impact on Australia is significant.
> >
> > Championed by Minister for Broadband, Communications and the Digital
> > Economy, Senator Stephen Conroy, the $30million+ filter is being sold by
> > Labor as an internet block for child pornography, bestiality and extreme
> > pornography with 'wide ranging support from the Australian public' and
> 'only
> > minimal opposition against'.
> >
> > But after a new, lengthy investigation it transpires that virtually none
> of
> > this is true. What Australia will get from this internet filter is a
> > framework for censorship that doesn't stop "the worst of the worst" but
> will
> > absolutely curtail discussion on politically incorrect topics like
> > euthanasia, safe drug taking and graffiti while banning relatively-tame
> > adult content.
> >
> > (etc)
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > extropy-chat mailing list
> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> >
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>



-- 
Patrick McLaren
http://www.patrickmclaren.com
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100722/edb80e38/attachment.html>

From giulio at gmail.com  Thu Jul 22 06:47:58 2010
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 08:47:58 +0200
Subject: [ExI] NYT: The Technocracy Boom
In-Reply-To: <20100721174253.wkcaeng3kw84s08w@webmail.maxmore.com>
References: <AANLkTimCN9bWViyldqI0xz51EwQqirS4EylYDJcY3GHH@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100721174253.wkcaeng3kw84s08w@webmail.maxmore.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTiklUXbZ3tx4J9BlvbZ9YYtKfHkGGKROp690JAoc@mail.gmail.com>

In Hugo de Garis book, Cosmists escape to a space colony aptly named
Cosmosia to be left in peace. I suspect someday we will have to do so.

Max, institutions make decisions to self-perpetuate and help their
nomenklaturas stealing even more money from the rest of us. Their are
not interested in doing the right things, and rational thinking is not
going to change things much.

On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 12:42 AM,  <max at maxmore.com> wrote:
> Reading that piece, and even more the replies to it (especially those
> selected by the editors) really makes me despair. The "technoprogressives"
> like to make fun of those who want to leave this planet and its problematic
> accumulated institutions behind, but this piece makes me want to join their
> ranks. I continue to be amazed at people saying that we need even more
> government and more complex regulation because markets have failed. They
> really believe that US health care and financial institutions were
> unregulated.
>
> I feel sick.
>
> Achieving radical life extension must remain the top priority. After that,
> I'm more inclined to think that developing cheaper space colonization tech
> should be number 2. (Escaping into cyberspace is much cheaper, but
> controlling forces can easily seize the computers on which you run your
> freer societies.)
>
> Since I lack the skills to do much about those priorities (other than to
> communicate their urgency to others), I will focus on another priority (in
> some ways surely the real #1 priority): devising ways to get institutions
> and individuals to make make better decisions.
>
> Max
>
>
> Quoting John Grigg <possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com>:
>
>> David Brooks in the NYT: The Technocracy Boom...
>>
>> http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/20/opinion/20brooks.html
>>
>> John
>> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>


From pharos at gmail.com  Thu Jul 22 08:40:14 2010
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 09:40:14 +0100
Subject: [ExI] EP was Sarah Palin
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTilrfJVoUtGuVnyV2Cfrk7s_21l5T-S74txXLBJ7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTilrfJVoUtGuVnyV2Cfrk7s_21l5T-S74txXLBJ7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinACg2K08RApCiYvstht7qVLc4bHAzzqFfU4NJ_@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/22/10, Keith Henson  wrote:
>  It is well worth considering why we no longer have much concern about the IRA.
>  It is directly related to individual decisions by Irish women starting
>  about 40 years ago.
>
>

It might also be related to the fact that the IRA leaders are now in
the government and the rabid discrimination against Catholics is no
longer so widespread.


BillK


From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Thu Jul 22 08:57:25 2010
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 01:57:25 -0700
Subject: [ExI] NYT: Amazon Says E-Books Now Top Hardcover Sales
Message-ID: <AANLkTintxWk4beHTlVB9OzCsJ69KC8rFdp-kaZwKtXKi@mail.gmail.com>

Amazon Says E-Books Now Top Hardcover Sales...

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/20/technology/20kindle.html

John


From stathisp at gmail.com  Thu Jul 22 09:54:32 2010
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 19:54:32 +1000
Subject: [ExI] atheists de-baptize unbelievers:
In-Reply-To: <COL112-W4238ADE999FAF7AD8AAC809DA10@phx.gbl>
References: <201007172220.o6HMKY7a002861@andromeda.ziaspace.com> 
	<AANLkTinQVytaEJmvcYiUCBLXtvfsuzQu0vv84ADOtChO@mail.gmail.com> 
	<4C4258EB.9080107@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTinh3oNzBI-7KM3tGOGywoE4h61aNoZTu9CXYg02@mail.gmail.com> 
	<AANLkTil-0pKUHH5ZoU9zmi6GZEX4fD3cY-GJQhMJJGwQ@mail.gmail.com> 
	<AANLkTilh4S3AVxmn1KGumnUk0L87-Qmix-R7HpF4IosJ@mail.gmail.com> 
	<AANLkTik-7y9OMWu0fRclqhsAgQGykS7hjCneYXXiZgp7@mail.gmail.com> 
	<COL112-W9F4BEBE694BAC4CE96BFF9DBE0@phx.gbl>
	<AANLkTikT6wepwOta2bzqafXIfo1mGOqJFsXIhv93meNO@mail.gmail.com> 
	<COL112-W18E70924E6137DF8D688AB9DA00@phx.gbl>
	<AANLkTik0fRPggEUdL_tYH1SuMBdjEcrD-Uq6JRildP6D@mail.gmail.com> 
	<COL112-W4238ADE999FAF7AD8AAC809DA10@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <AANLkTin5MfZduyk3sTgXOTesBw0B8JxX8pTS0ICv9_DE@mail.gmail.com>

2010/7/21 darren shawn greer <dgreer_68 at hotmail.com>
>
> >Einstein was an agnostic. He specifically denied believing in a
> personal God.
>
> Entirely untrue. He was not agnostic but a believer.  Remember Einstein's often used quip to Bohr, that "God does not play dice."? Time magazine did an interview with him--you can probably find it on-line--where he discusses his belief in God. They also did another piece in 2006 about his stated belief, and how the Christians tried unsuccesfully to make him a poster boy--his God was static and non-interventionist. But if you do the research, you'll see enough to convince yourself, I think. BTW, he  referred to God as "the Old One."

He was *not* a believer in a personal God. In fact, as a deist, he was
closer to an atheist than an agnostic is. An agnostic may conceivably
say that the God spoken of by Jews, Christians and Muslims might
exist, whereas Einstein said that he does not exist. And his "God does
not play dice" quote was obviously meant as an amusing way to make a
point, not a statement of religious belief. As an atheist I also on
occasion use the term "God" when referring to nature, the universe
etc., and no-one has ever misunderstood me as suddenly having a
religious conversion!

See also this Wikipedia article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Einstein's_religious_views

'In a 1950 letter to M. Berkowitz, Einstein stated that "My position
concerning God is that of an agnostic. I am convinced that a vivid
consciousness of the primary importance of moral principles for the
betterment and ennoblement of life does not need the idea of a
law-giver, especially a law-giver who works on the basis of reward and
punishment." '

'It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious
convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not
believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have
expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called
religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the
world so far as our science can reveal it.'


--
Stathis Papaioannou



From giulio at gmail.com  Thu Jul 22 11:59:21 2010
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 13:59:21 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Book Review - A Cosmist Manifesto: Practical Philosophy for
	the Posthuman Age, by Ben Goertzel
Message-ID: <AANLkTilnQN6UCsLP4x-egAwXGvu8Apr87YpYdXEjunmW@mail.gmail.com>

A Cosmist Manifesto: Practical Philosophy for the Posthuman Age, by
Ben Goertzel, published by Humanity+ Press, is now available on
Amazon. My review:

Book Review - A Cosmist Manifesto: Practical Philosophy for the
Posthuman Age, by Ben Goertzel

http://giulioprisco.blogspot.com/2010/07/cosmist-manifesto-practical-philosophy.html


From nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk  Thu Jul 22 14:03:56 2010
From: nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk (Tom Nowell)
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 14:03:56 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [ExI] atheists de-baptize unbelievers
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1307.1279736003.10820.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <344734.55073.qm@web27001.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

regarding the "atheist bus", Giulio wrote:
"However, I wish to note that the word "probably" used in this context
reveals a poor understanding of the notion of probability in its rigorous
Bayesian sense, and thus a poor understanding of much of modern science."

Their use of "probably" is not driven by Bayesian logic or their arguments. It is driven by the fact it is an advertisement in the UK, and therefore has to be obey UK advertising law if they A) want to keep the campaign going more than a few days without it being pulled and B) want to avoid "atheists too militant to read the rules" headlines.

Under the UK rules, you can't make any claims that can't be firmly backed up - hence the cosmetic adverts using weasel words like "up to", or quoting clinical studies based on pitifully small sample sizes, with the study size appearing in very small print. As Prof Dawkins' supporters cannot 100% disprove the existence of God in a court of law, they can't state it as a fact in an advert. They could use a quote "There is no God, so stop worrying - Richard Dawkins", and indeed this is how some religious groups advertise, as they can quote the Bible or Koran as long as it appears in quote marks and the source of the quote is named. However, rather than use a quote, they decided inserting the word "probably" was a better way of working with the law.

Tom


      



From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Thu Jul 22 15:05:24 2010
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 08:05:24 -0700
Subject: [ExI] EP was Sarah Palin
Message-ID: <AANLkTimmtuY38cB3SXg4bFefJ-9qGG3Nzy3I4tOJJd1w@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 5:00 AM,  BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 7/22/10, Keith Henson ?wrote:
>> ?It is well worth considering why we no longer have much concern about the IRA.
>> ?It is directly related to individual decisions by Irish women starting
>> ?about 40 years ago.
>
> It might also be related to the fact that the IRA leaders are now in
> the government and the rabid discrimination against Catholics is no
> longer so widespread.

When looking for the arrow of causality, the earlier events are
particularly suspect.

But consider the reverse.  Suppose the Irish Catholic women had
continued to have far more than replacement numbers of children?
(Much like happens in the Arab/Islamic countries now.)

Then economic growth never would have gotten ahead of population
growth.  Given the declining prospects for much of the population, do
you doubt that support for the IRA and related social disruption would
have continued?

As humans we tend to look at the obvious (religion fanatics) rather
then the cause for the fanatics (a bleak future outlook).

Trying to fix the obvious in complex systems is wrong virtually every
time.  I learned about this reading the System Dynamics works of Jay
Forrester back in the early 1970s.

It's hard to over express the influence his work had on my world view.
 When I think about it, this work is compatible with EP.   Like EP, it
helps understand what is happening but neither System Dynamics nor
evolutionary psychology have had a lot of influence in making policy.

Dr Forrester is still teaching at 92.  I wonder what he thinks about
the singularity?

Keith

COUNTERINTUITIVE BEHAVIOR OF SOCIAL SYSTEMS
by
JAY W. FORRESTER

ABSTRACT

This paper addresses several social concerns: population trends; quality of
urban life; policies for urban growth; and the unexpected, ineffective, or
detrimental results often generated by government programs.

Society becomes frustrated as repeated attacks on deficiencies in social
systems lead only to worse symptoms. Legislation is debated and passed with
great hope, but many programs prove to be ineffective. Results are
often far short
of expectations. Because dynamic behavior of social systems is not understood,
government programs often cause exactly the reverse of desired results.

The field of system dynamics now can explain how such contrary results
happen. Fundamental reasons cause people to misjudge behavior of social
systems. Orderly processes in creating human judgment and intuition lead people
to wrong decisions when faced with complex and highly interacting systems.

Until we reach a much better public understanding of social systems, attempts to
develop corrective programs for social troubles will continue to be
disappointing.
This paper cautions against continuing to depend on the same past
approaches that have led to present feelings of frustration. New methods
developed over the last 30 years will lead to a better understanding of social
systems and thereby to more effective policies for guiding the future.

1 This paper was first copyrighted ? 1971 by Jay W. Forrester. It is
based on testimony for the Subcommittee on Urban Growth of the
Committee on Banking and Currency, U.S. House of Representatives, on
October 7, 1970. The original text appeared in the January, 1971,
issue of the Technology Review published by the Alumni Association of
the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. All figures are taken from
World Dynamics by Jay W. Forrester, Pegasus Communications, Waltham
MA. Updated March, 1995

2 Professor, Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Cambridge, MA, USA
Copyright ? 1995
Jay W. Forrester

http://sysdyn.clexchange.org/sdep/Roadmaps/RM1/D-4468-2.pdf



From colin.dodson at gmail.com  Thu Jul 22 12:42:43 2010
From: colin.dodson at gmail.com (Colin D)
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 07:42:43 -0500
Subject: [ExI] New IP thread
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinSsPAXCEnJGUN4DTMujAH-PFfgFVp3UVwQGBwp@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTik6HN5eiznfgTDtVnowqsbpFUs+YR6abW6g0mon@mail.gmail.com>
	<838247.6687.qm@web81603.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<AANLkTinSsPAXCEnJGUN4DTMujAH-PFfgFVp3UVwQGBwp@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikZoILSj9i3QvZQ2yMqcotzr6GdY8KoNrwbp237@mail.gmail.com>

"" What IP-deniers say boils down to claiming that any act of disclosure
of information automatically authorizes copying, even if the
disclosure is explicitly accompanied by restrictions on use of the
information. They deny that voluntary participation in the exchange of
information may be accompanied by legitimate limitations on some
further uses of that informantion - but only when it suits them. When
they want to read somebody's book, see a movie or use an invention
without paying, it's "information must be free". Of course, if the
tables are turned, and somebody in real life misuses information
*they* provided, they will demand "privacy". ""

There is a huge difference between privacy and IP. (Though I shudder to use
the term 'IP'...) Copyrights and patents, now primarily within the corporate
sphere serve far more to stifle progress than to foster it. Neither
mechanism was ever intended to do this. I wouldn't necessarily argue against
Copyrights and Patents wholesale, but I would argue that, perhaps, these
should be strictly limited to individuals (with legal liability), or when
used in the corporate sphere, taxed extremely heavily to discourage hoarding
of information, which is nearly invariably the case today.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100722/60975913/attachment.html>

From colin.dodson at gmail.com  Thu Jul 22 12:49:02 2010
From: colin.dodson at gmail.com (Colin D)
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 07:49:02 -0500
Subject: [ExI] NYT: Amazon Says E-Books Now Top Hardcover Sales
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTintxWk4beHTlVB9OzCsJ69KC8rFdp-kaZwKtXKi@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTintxWk4beHTlVB9OzCsJ69KC8rFdp-kaZwKtXKi@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTiljrST8F-uck1xPnUH5ZzeidL_iR2MC4WnRT4V_@mail.gmail.com>

I am saddened by this. Unfortunately, most ebook platforms are heavily
DRM-encumbered and tightly controlled by their vendors. No amount of
convenience can justify such behavior-if I purchase a piece of hardware, I
should get to decide what it does, and proprietary software solutions take
that away from me. Even worse, DRM mandates conformity to a single or a few
platforms, all of which will be proprietary, and thus beyond the user's
control.

Yours etc.,
  Colin D

On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 3:57 AM, John Grigg <possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com>wrote:

> Amazon Says E-Books Now Top Hardcover Sales...
>
> http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/20/technology/20kindle.html
>
> John
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100722/29127e49/attachment.html>

From giulio at gmail.com  Thu Jul 22 15:49:09 2010
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 17:49:09 +0200
Subject: [ExI] NYT: Amazon Says E-Books Now Top Hardcover Sales
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTiljrST8F-uck1xPnUH5ZzeidL_iR2MC4WnRT4V_@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTintxWk4beHTlVB9OzCsJ69KC8rFdp-kaZwKtXKi@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTiljrST8F-uck1xPnUH5ZzeidL_iR2MC4WnRT4V_@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTim3mqeeotGnplA4clfWVxg7qPp5VgeZE_hyCYdO@mail.gmail.com>

Come on Colin. Young hackers will fix that in no time.

2010/7/22 Colin D <colin.dodson at gmail.com>:
> I am saddened by this. Unfortunately, most ebook platforms are heavily
> DRM-encumbered and tightly controlled by their vendors. No amount of
> convenience can justify such behavior-if I purchase a piece of hardware, I
> should get to decide what it does, and proprietary software solutions take
> that away from me. Even worse, DRM mandates conformity to a single or a few
> platforms, all of which will be proprietary, and thus beyond the user's
> control.
>
> Yours etc.,
> ? Colin D
>
> On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 3:57 AM, John Grigg <possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> Amazon Says E-Books Now Top Hardcover Sales...
>>
>> http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/20/technology/20kindle.html
>>
>> John
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>



From pharos at gmail.com  Thu Jul 22 16:13:24 2010
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 17:13:24 +0100
Subject: [ExI] EP was Sarah Palin
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimmtuY38cB3SXg4bFefJ-9qGG3Nzy3I4tOJJd1w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTimmtuY38cB3SXg4bFefJ-9qGG3Nzy3I4tOJJd1w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTin4Q3v1J7zV7p4m2RITdFQacpH6D6u6yf2yKsgi@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/22/10, Keith Henson  wrote:
> When looking for the arrow of causality, the earlier events are
>  particularly suspect.
>
>  But consider the reverse.  Suppose the Irish Catholic women had
>  continued to have far more than replacement numbers of children?
>  (Much like happens in the Arab/Islamic countries now.)
>
>  Then economic growth never would have gotten ahead of population
>  growth.  Given the declining prospects for much of the population, do
>  you doubt that support for the IRA and related social disruption would
>  have continued?
>
>  As humans we tend to look at the obvious (religion fanatics) rather
>  then the cause for the fanatics (a bleak future outlook).
>
>

I am not arguing against your theory in the context of nations going
to war when the nation faces a choice of starve or war with the
neighbour nation. (Although there could be exceptions even to this
where the nation doesn't have enough young men to fight a war).


What I have difficulty with is stretching the theory to apply to
terrorist groups within a nation. The IRA never had more than a few
thousand members. A tiny fraction of the population. They wanted to
stop the victimisation of Catholics in Northern Ireland by the
Protestants who ran everything. When they achieved that objective they
stopped bombing and shooting. I don't see any need to make the theory
more complex than that.

Take South Africa for example. The ANC (a former terrorist group) now
forms the government and the terrorism has stopped.

Terrorist groups usually arise to fight a specific problem. Once that
problem is solved, the need for terrorism goes away.

This doesn't deny your theory of why nations go to war. I'm just
saying it is a stretch to try and apply it to 'little' local problems.


BillK


From rtomek at ceti.pl  Thu Jul 22 16:17:17 2010
From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola)
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 18:17:17 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] Religions and violence [Was Re:  Sarah Palin]
In-Reply-To: <20100722012234.GA9655@ofb.net>
References: <201007211513.o6LFDcxv019859@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<20100721194356.GC23426@ofb.net>
	<20100721161058.ku3wqeoypgcckgsg@webmail.maxmore.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1007212321160.16734@tau.ceti.pl>
	<20100722012234.GA9655@ofb.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1007221811580.28538@tau.ceti.pl>

On Wed, 21 Jul 2010, Damien Sullivan wrote:

> On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 12:16:24AM +0200, Tomasz Rola wrote:
> > 
> > I think it's a bit hard to agree or disagree, unless one reads "the text" 
> > in original, i.e. in Arabic language. From what I've heard so far, reading 
> > a translation "does not count", whatever this really means (not sure yet). 
> > As of authorities, I guess it is same as the case with Catholic religious 
> 
> I misread that as Chinese religious authorities; despite being wrong,
> I'll share today's link anyway:
> http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=128628514&sc=tw
> on female imams and mosques in China.
> 
> -xx- Damien X-) 

Very interesting indeed. A quick goog led me to this page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_as_imams

which shows this issue is a subject of dispute lasting at least 1000 years 
:-). A very nice way to learn how decentralised Islam world really is, or 
appears to be.

Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.      **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home    **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...      **
**                                                                 **
** Tomasz Rola          mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com             **


From jonkc at bellsouth.net  Thu Jul 22 17:01:36 2010
From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John Clark)
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 13:01:36 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Religions and violence [Was Re:  Sarah Palin]
In-Reply-To: <20100721194356.GC23426@ofb.net>
References: <201007211513.o6LFDcxv019859@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<20100721194356.GC23426@ofb.net>
Message-ID: <4135667C-A61C-44E5-8477-04E6BA1FDC3A@bellsouth.net>

On Jul 21, 2010, at 3:43 PM, Damien Sullivan wrote:

>  Max More wrote:
> 
>> point -- there *is* something about the Muslim religion that commands 
>> Muslims to go out and kill the infidel. 
> 
> Many Muslims seems to disagree about that very point

Where do these "many Muslims" show that they disagree with killing the infidel? Yes, they will give lip service to it and will tell you that Islam means peace (or perhaps submission, apparently they aren't sure), but what Islamic person stood up and said that a novelist and a cartoonist shouldn't be murdered for exercising their trade? Well I can think of one, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, but she could only do that from the "safety" of a Western country and even then she received so many death threats from those peace loving Muslims (including one note pinned to the body of her friend with a knife that penetrated his heart) that she's going to have to live in hiding for the rest of her life.

> And historically... for centuries Christians were rather prone to forcible conversion of the heathens,
> while for a long time, Muslims coexisted with Jews and Christians rather better than Christians did with anyone else.

Its interesting that whenever anybody uses examples to demonstrate the glories and fair-mindedness of Islamic culture the examples cited always come before the year 1500, usually centuries before.

> If this has changed recently

Recently?! In the year 900 Islamic culture was one of the most advanced in the world, superior to anything found in the west, but it's been straight downhill from there; it has contributed little of value to the world in centuries. For example, out of a pool of 1.4 Billion people, 20% of the world's population, they have produced only 6 Nobel prizes, and 3 of them were for peace and given to people like Yasser Arafat which must embarrass the Nobel organization today; in comparison out of a pool of only 12 million jews, .2% of the world's population, have produced 165 Noble prizes. This despite the fact that recent genetic studies have shown that Jews and Arabs are virtually identical, so some other factor must explain this anomaly and I think we both know what that factor is. In fact, off the top of my head I can't think of any recent Islamic person that I really admire and think will be fondly remembered for generations that mainstream Islamic culture isn't trying to kill.

> in the brief Maccabean period, they seem to have forcibly converted a neighboring kingdom, Edom.
> Or conquered and forced to live by Jewish laws 

Who cares.

  John K Clark 



-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100722/12f06220/attachment.html>

From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Thu Jul 22 21:38:33 2010
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 14:38:33 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Janelle Monae turns science fiction into rhythm and blues
Message-ID: <AANLkTikcbEh3N7LqQzT9EoOcbynfgCYJRlbXDDhy0CJO@mail.gmail.com>

This very talented young musician takes inspiration from the works of
Kurzweil, Butler, and Asimov...

http://io9.com/5592174/janelle-monae-turns-rhythm-and-blues-into-science-fiction?skyline=true&s=i

John


From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Thu Jul 22 18:26:56 2010
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 11:26:56 -0700
Subject: [ExI] New IP thread
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikZoILSj9i3QvZQ2yMqcotzr6GdY8KoNrwbp237@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTik6HN5eiznfgTDtVnowqsbpFUs+YR6abW6g0mon@mail.gmail.com>
	<838247.6687.qm@web81603.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<AANLkTinSsPAXCEnJGUN4DTMujAH-PFfgFVp3UVwQGBwp@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikZoILSj9i3QvZQ2yMqcotzr6GdY8KoNrwbp237@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTik4Z4Tmw1vQMDm2Krfuwo3jxzMe+ym+dxpSmnah@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 5:42 AM, Colin D <colin.dodson at gmail.com> wrote:
> "" What IP-deniers say boils down to claiming that any act of disclosure
> of information automatically authorizes copying, even if the
> disclosure is explicitly accompanied by restrictions on use of the
> information. They deny that voluntary participation in the exchange of
> information may be accompanied by legitimate limitations on some
> further uses of that informantion - but only when it suits them. When
> they want to read somebody's book, see a movie or use an invention
> without paying, it's "information must be free". Of course, if the
> tables are turned, and somebody in real life misuses information
> *they* provided, they will demand "privacy". ""
>
> There is a huge difference between privacy and IP. (Though I shudder to use
> the term 'IP'...) Copyrights and patents, now primarily within the corporate
> sphere serve far more to stifle progress than to foster it.

### Again, I can assure you from my own experience in the generation
of innovations that IP provides strong support for inventors. Claims
to the contrary tend to stem from lack of familiarity with the issue
or from varoius ulterior motives.

-------------------------------------------------------------

Neither
> mechanism was ever intended to do this. I wouldn't necessarily argue against
> Copyrights and Patents wholesale, but I would argue that, perhaps, these
> should be strictly limited to individuals (with legal liability), or when
> used in the corporate sphere, taxed extremely heavily to discourage hoarding
> of information, which is nearly invariably the case today.

### You appear not to be familiar with the issues under discussion. I
would like to challenge you with providing references to trustworthy,
preferably peer-reviewed publications claiming that "hoarding of
information" is "nearly invariably the case today". Your statement is
outrageously incompatible with my personal experience in this field.

Rafal


From bbenzai at yahoo.com  Thu Jul 22 22:19:19 2010
From: bbenzai at yahoo.com (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 15:19:19 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Religions and violence
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1316.1279761757.10820.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <478393.67459.qm@web114404.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com> asked:

max at maxmore.com asked:
> 
> > Do you agree with the Muslims who claim that their
> highest religious
> > authorities and texts do *not* tell them to fight the
> infidel?
> 

This is further complicated by the existence of 'Taqqiya'.  There is only one religion that I know of that explicitly encourages its members to tell lies in order to further its ends.

Ben Zaiboc


      




From msd001 at gmail.com  Thu Jul 22 22:38:22 2010
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 18:38:22 -0400
Subject: [ExI] NYT: Amazon Says E-Books Now Top Hardcover Sales
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTim3mqeeotGnplA4clfWVxg7qPp5VgeZE_hyCYdO@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTintxWk4beHTlVB9OzCsJ69KC8rFdp-kaZwKtXKi@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTiljrST8F-uck1xPnUH5ZzeidL_iR2MC4WnRT4V_@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTim3mqeeotGnplA4clfWVxg7qPp5VgeZE_hyCYdO@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikgwxecOyMTASIhnGIqmxN9QY_Kq_9VVACPNRgS@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 11:49 AM, Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:
> Come on Colin. Young hackers will fix that in no time.
>
> 2010/7/22 Colin D <colin.dodson at gmail.com>:
>> I am saddened by this. Unfortunately, most ebook platforms are heavily
>> DRM-encumbered and tightly controlled by their vendors. No amount of
>> convenience can justify such behavior-if I purchase a piece of hardware, I
>> should get to decide what it does, and proprietary software solutions take
>> that away from me. Even worse, DRM mandates conformity to a single or a few
>> platforms, all of which will be proprietary, and thus beyond the user's
>> control.


Perhaps using a printer and some form of binding the output into a
portable form with either a soft paper or hard backing to protect the
words within...


From msd001 at gmail.com  Thu Jul 22 22:47:19 2010
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 18:47:19 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Religions and violence [Was Re: Sarah Palin]
In-Reply-To: <4135667C-A61C-44E5-8477-04E6BA1FDC3A@bellsouth.net>
References: <201007211513.o6LFDcxv019859@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<20100721194356.GC23426@ofb.net>
	<4135667C-A61C-44E5-8477-04E6BA1FDC3A@bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimiTa1WFDUfRmwx3PWJKbSpPkLU_RxQeNNdMDHz@mail.gmail.com>

2010/7/22 John Clark <jonkc at bellsouth.net>:
#> out of a pool of 1.4 B (20% world's population), they have produced 6 vs
#> out of a pool of only 12 Million (.2% world's population, have produced 165
> are virtually identical, so some other factor must explain this anomaly and
> I think we both know what that factor is. In fact, off the top of my head I

New York Deli Pastrami?  Bagels?  Nope, I'm unsure what that factor
is.  I'd like the answer to be bagels though.


From bbenzai at yahoo.com  Thu Jul 22 22:41:02 2010
From: bbenzai at yahoo.com (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 15:41:02 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] NYT: The Technocracy Boom
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1279800003.23867.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <478827.96077.qm@web114407.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> In Hugo de Garis book, Cosmists escape to a space colony
> aptly named
> Cosmosia to be left in peace. I suspect someday we will
> have to do so.

What makes you (or Hugo) think they'd be left in peace?

The 'non presbyterians' would see it as a sacred duty to reach them and convert them to the One True Faith, the catholics would be compelled to reach them and save their souls (and those of their embryos), not to mention both these groups having an insatiable desire to regulate everyone's sex lives, and the gubmints would feel a pressing need to reach them and Tax them.  Not to mention the mere fact of an independent space-going colony being a serious military threat to all right-thinking folks.

The only way a space colony could 'escape' would be to keep going, faster than any pursuit, or stay hidden indefinitely. Or, of course, by becoming the very thing they are escaping from, and impose their will on everyone else.

Ben Zaiboc


      




From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Fri Jul 23 02:22:05 2010
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 19:22:05 -0700
Subject: [ExI] worth reading
Message-ID: <AANLkTikSnE84FS7D1eewH36ojrvZ9MisLKBKYqlWKk0K@mail.gmail.com>

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20727692.100-die-young-live-fast-the-evolution-of-an-underclass.html?full=true


From max at maxmore.com  Fri Jul 23 04:35:12 2010
From: max at maxmore.com (Max More)
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 23:35:12 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Buckyballs in spaaaaaace!
Message-ID: <201007230435.o6N4ZOfO009058@andromeda.ziaspace.com>


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38365987/ns/technology_and_science-space/



From giulio at gmail.com  Fri Jul 23 07:57:21 2010
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 09:57:21 +0200
Subject: [ExI] NYT: The Technocracy Boom
In-Reply-To: <478827.96077.qm@web114407.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.1.1279800003.23867.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<478827.96077.qm@web114407.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinA24gKjq+kdHYPKoJB6mTLQX=RsYbGWK5XK3GJ@mail.gmail.com>

Of course, they would not be left in peace, for the reasons you quote.
I am afraid control freaks and nanny state zealots will be around for
a long, long time.

In The Artilect War, Hugo writes about his fear of a major war between
Cosmists and Terrans, with billions of deaths. I really hope it won't
come to that, and I think physical separation (escaping to Cosmosia in
space) will be the best choice at some point. Of course, the Terrans
will still try to attack the Cosmists, who will be forced to defend
themselves.

On Fri, Jul 23, 2010 at 12:41 AM, Ben Zaiboc <bbenzai at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> In Hugo de Garis book, Cosmists escape to a space colony
>> aptly named
>> Cosmosia to be left in peace. I suspect someday we will
>> have to do so.
>
> What makes you (or Hugo) think they'd be left in peace?
>
> The 'non presbyterians' would see it as a sacred duty to reach them and convert them to the One True Faith, the catholics would be compelled to reach them and save their souls (and those of their embryos), not to mention both these groups having an insatiable desire to regulate everyone's sex lives, and the gubmints would feel a pressing need to reach them and Tax them. ?Not to mention the mere fact of an independent space-going colony being a serious military threat to all right-thinking folks.
>
> The only way a space colony could 'escape' would be to keep going, faster than any pursuit, or stay hidden indefinitely. Or, of course, by becoming the very thing they are escaping from, and impose their will on everyone else.
>
> Ben Zaiboc
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>



From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Fri Jul 23 08:30:35 2010
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 01:30:35 -0700
Subject: [ExI] NYT: The Technocracy Boom
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinA24gKjq+kdHYPKoJB6mTLQX=RsYbGWK5XK3GJ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1279800003.23867.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<478827.96077.qm@web114407.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<AANLkTinA24gKjq+kdHYPKoJB6mTLQX=RsYbGWK5XK3GJ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimZ226URverjpFuZG55sTu0Dk0QrOsgn8anP2Qt@mail.gmail.com>

Giulio wrote:
In The Artilect War, Hugo writes about his fear of a major war between
Cosmists and Terrans, with billions of deaths. I really hope it won't
come to that, and I think physical separation (escaping to Cosmosia in
space) will be the best choice at some point. Of course, the Terrans
will still try to attack the Cosmists, who will be forced to defend
themselves.
>>>

The classic Serenity or Warhammer 40k scenario.

John

On 7/23/10, Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:
> Of course, they would not be left in peace, for the reasons you quote.
> I am afraid control freaks and nanny state zealots will be around for
> a long, long time.
>
> In The Artilect War, Hugo writes about his fear of a major war between
> Cosmists and Terrans, with billions of deaths. I really hope it won't
> come to that, and I think physical separation (escaping to Cosmosia in
> space) will be the best choice at some point. Of course, the Terrans
> will still try to attack the Cosmists, who will be forced to defend
> themselves.
>
> On Fri, Jul 23, 2010 at 12:41 AM, Ben Zaiboc <bbenzai at yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> In Hugo de Garis book, Cosmists escape to a space colony
>>> aptly named
>>> Cosmosia to be left in peace. I suspect someday we will
>>> have to do so.
>>
>> What makes you (or Hugo) think they'd be left in peace?
>>
>> The 'non presbyterians' would see it as a sacred duty to reach them and
>> convert them to the One True Faith, the catholics would be compelled to
>> reach them and save their souls (and those of their embryos), not to
>> mention both these groups having an insatiable desire to regulate
>> everyone's sex lives, and the gubmints would feel a pressing need to reach
>> them and Tax them. ?Not to mention the mere fact of an independent
>> space-going colony being a serious military threat to all right-thinking
>> folks.
>>
>> The only way a space colony could 'escape' would be to keep going, faster
>> than any pursuit, or stay hidden indefinitely. Or, of course, by becoming
>> the very thing they are escaping from, and impose their will on everyone
>> else.
>>
>> Ben Zaiboc
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>



From nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk  Fri Jul 23 10:12:31 2010
From: nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk (Tom Nowell)
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 10:12:31 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [ExI] Post-scarcity & positional goods.
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1279800003.23867.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <492772.21140.qm@web27001.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

We often talk of future technologies delivering a world of "post-scarcity", especially molecular nanotech assembly. Some academics use the term post-scarcity to refer to western societies where peoples basic needs are cheaply and easily covered (or welfare is available to cover) and the majority of economic activity is centred on meeting desires rather than the lower steps of Maslow's hierarchy of needs.

I've been reading up on various critiques of consumer society, plus the Canadian riposte "The Rebel Sell" which shows how the counter-culture is in fact all about consumers distinguishing themselves by consuming different goods to the mainstream. Sooner or later these discussions always come round to positional goods - things that define status by you having a higher status item than others, or are necessarily restricted in number. When you can get a perfect copy of any other physical item, how are people going to choose their positional goods?

There will probably still be some positional things in the physical world - property has always been about "location, location, location" and despite the presence of telecommuting people still want to physically locate themselves close to services they value or in a community surrounded by people of similar status. Positional experience - or just how exclusive a holiday you had, or exclusive a golf club you're playing at - will remain scarce in the physical world. Virtual worlds may have less of a problem with these, although I've heard that property values in Second Life can be affected by location.

I'll stop here before my post becomes so long everyone skips over it - but how are people going to fulfil their status-seeking/hierarchical behaviour when everyone can have any item possible? Will we be able to reduce human desire for such goods? I'm just wondering how we get from "Here" (21st century consumers) to "there" (future versions of ourselves in a world of 3D printers for all)

Tom


      



From sparge at gmail.com  Fri Jul 23 13:07:45 2010
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 09:07:45 -0400
Subject: [ExI] worth reading
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikSnE84FS7D1eewH36ojrvZ9MisLKBKYqlWKk0K@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTikSnE84FS7D1eewH36ojrvZ9MisLKBKYqlWKk0K@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTik5UzhdKoq605gf1CSq8q2Vs55cV6=vNAzzBSi4@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 10:22 PM, Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com>wrote:

>
> http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20727692.100-die-young-live-fast-the-evolution-of-an-underclass.html?full=true


A quote:

"There is no reason to view the poor as stupid or in any way different from
anyone else, says Daniel Nettle of the University of Newcastle in the UK.
All of us are simply human beings, making the best of the hand life has
dealt us."

Does anyone really believe that some people aren't more successful because
they're simply more clever? Sure, there are people who are poor/rich because
they had the bad/good luck to be born into it, but just as surely there are
people who are poor because they suck at being successful and people who
have risen from poverty through hard work and good decision making.

I'm not sure what that quote has to do with the point of the article,
though.

-Dave
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100723/5ef57c90/attachment.html>

From jonkc at bellsouth.net  Fri Jul 23 14:44:11 2010
From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John Clark)
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 10:44:11 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Religions and violence [Was Re: Sarah Palin]
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimiTa1WFDUfRmwx3PWJKbSpPkLU_RxQeNNdMDHz@mail.gmail.com>
References: <201007211513.o6LFDcxv019859@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<20100721194356.GC23426@ofb.net>
	<4135667C-A61C-44E5-8477-04E6BA1FDC3A@bellsouth.net>
	<AANLkTimiTa1WFDUfRmwx3PWJKbSpPkLU_RxQeNNdMDHz@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <B502B0B7-EBC6-472C-B377-7D40732EF526@bellsouth.net>

On Jul 22, 2010, at 6:47 PM, Mike Dougherty wrote:

Me:
>> [Genetically Jews and Arabs] are virtually identical, so some other factor must explain this anomaly and I think we both know what that factor is. 
> 
> New York Deli Pastrami?  Bagels?  Nope, I'm unsure what that factor is.

You know what, I flat out don't believe you. I believe you can think of a cultural factor that is astronomically more likely to be the source of that HUGE Nobel deficit among the Islamic than bagels, but will not admit it (perhaps even to yourself) for fear of being called a foe of multiculturalism. I say a spade should be called a spade.

 John K Clark


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100723/8aaea21c/attachment.html>

From colin.dodson at gmail.com  Thu Jul 22 17:03:58 2010
From: colin.dodson at gmail.com (Colin D)
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 12:03:58 -0500
Subject: [ExI] NYT: Amazon Says E-Books Now Top Hardcover Sales
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTim3mqeeotGnplA4clfWVxg7qPp5VgeZE_hyCYdO@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTintxWk4beHTlVB9OzCsJ69KC8rFdp-kaZwKtXKi@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTiljrST8F-uck1xPnUH5ZzeidL_iR2MC4WnRT4V_@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTim3mqeeotGnplA4clfWVxg7qPp5VgeZE_hyCYdO@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTil-j2n2Gv1e6R6tMSrAKJyAKkD32yzI4QEVWlp_@mail.gmail.com>

Of course I have faith that that will happen, but centralized control
implemented in the first place is quite scary as it mandates a painful
transition.

On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 10:49 AM, Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:

> Come on Colin. Young hackers will fix that in no time.
>
> 2010/7/22 Colin D <colin.dodson at gmail.com>:
> > I am saddened by this. Unfortunately, most ebook platforms are heavily
> > DRM-encumbered and tightly controlled by their vendors. No amount of
> > convenience can justify such behavior-if I purchase a piece of hardware,
> I
> > should get to decide what it does, and proprietary software solutions
> take
> > that away from me. Even worse, DRM mandates conformity to a single or a
> few
> > platforms, all of which will be proprietary, and thus beyond the user's
> > control.
> >
> > Yours etc.,
> >   Colin D
> >
> > On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 3:57 AM, John Grigg <possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com
> >
> > wrote:
> >>
> >> Amazon Says E-Books Now Top Hardcover Sales...
> >>
> >> http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/20/technology/20kindle.html
> >>
> >> John
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> extropy-chat mailing list
> >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > extropy-chat mailing list
> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> >
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100722/438fa900/attachment.html>

From dgreer_68 at hotmail.com  Fri Jul 23 11:33:53 2010
From: dgreer_68 at hotmail.com (darren shawn greer)
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 07:33:53 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Post-scarcity & positional goods.
In-Reply-To: <492772.21140.qm@web27001.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.1.1279800003.23867.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>,
	<492772.21140.qm@web27001.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <COL112-W54AADD657BD66350C6B68E9DA30@phx.gbl>


Tom:

 

Personal opinion,. but I liked your post. I was considering yesterday unsubscribing from this list, because it seemed an inordinate amount of time was being spent discussing religion and politics. Important discussions, of course, but I get a lot of that in my non-virtual life. When I joined this list and others I was hoping for more discussions about how we get from "here" to "there". It's a subject that interests me and I don't think it's simply a matter of convincing the world to stop being such techno-phobes or defending cryogenics. When I first stumbled upon post-humanism I distinguished it quite radically from trans-humanism. I read Peppernel and others and tried to fit their ideas into the sea-change I was feeling in my own life and the way I looked at the world. I ran across a group of post-humanists in the flesh that were using technology to interface with the real world in ways that most weren't -- one of them had actually been identified by a Tuft's university professor in a lecture as the first and only public embodiment of a post-humanist on our planet. For them, it seems, technology is a feature of post-humanism that can only be fully utilized if there is a reduction of ego, a measure of emotional self-control, and a jettison of old morality and current ethical, national and spiritual distinctions. The search for meaning inside finite but unbounded (or closed) systems--binary and other-wise-- is more important and ultimately more valuable that searches for deeper meaning in physics and theology. Running afoul of the law is not uncommon for them; hierarchy based on talent and experience and knowledge is vital. Most importantly, and this leads back to ego-reduction, the idea of gestalt is paramount. Up to this point individual personalities have fueled history. These people see themselves not so much as individuals but as cogs in a wheel, where the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. To be post-human, or trans-human, in other words, is perhaps advancing the agenda of the species towards some utopia without being around to benefit greatly from the results. We could in fact simply be in a marked transition stage. I might not get to benefit from intelligence-enhancing drugs and I might not be able to afford a deep-freeze with hopes of revival, but I can promote it for the betterment of my species. Or I might contract for freezing and the contract superceded even when the technology is available because I am deemed too undistinguished or antedated for revival. (For those of you more familiar with the process, this is a philisophical point only. I can look the contract details up on-line if I'm truly interested.)

 

How this relates to your discussion of property owner-ship and post-scarcity I'm not sure. Perhaps just that a reduction of ego might reduce our desires to the essential -- not food or water or social equality or machines necessarily, but essential for the betterment of the species. I'm perfectly willing to accept that role. I don't think of it as self-sacrifice, and neither do my friends. I'd love to live in a world where hierarchy and brother-hood can happily co-exist, a sense of safety and belonging both. For after all, our economy, our religions and our politics, I believe, are simply manifestations of the search for those things anyway. 

 

Darren

 


 

Per Ardua Ad Astra
For more info on author Darren Greer visit 
http://darrenshawngreer.blogspot.com
 


 

> Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 10:12:31 +0000
> From: nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk
> To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> Subject: [ExI] Post-scarcity & positional goods.
> 
> We often talk of future technologies delivering a world of "post-scarcity", especially molecular nanotech assembly. Some academics use the term post-scarcity to refer to western societies where peoples basic needs are cheaply and easily covered (or welfare is available to cover) and the majority of economic activity is centred on meeting desires rather than the lower steps of Maslow's hierarchy of needs.
> 
> I've been reading up on various critiques of consumer society, plus the Canadian riposte "The Rebel Sell" which shows how the counter-culture is in fact all about consumers distinguishing themselves by consuming different goods to the mainstream. Sooner or later these discussions always come round to positional goods - things that define status by you having a higher status item than others, or are necessarily restricted in number. When you can get a perfect copy of any other physical item, how are people going to choose their positional goods?
> 
> There will probably still be some positional things in the physical world - property has always been about "location, location, location" and despite the presence of telecommuting people still want to physically locate themselves close to services they value or in a community surrounded by people of similar status. Positional experience - or just how exclusive a holiday you had, or exclusive a golf club you're playing at - will remain scarce in the physical world. Virtual worlds may have less of a problem with these, although I've heard that property values in Second Life can be affected by location.
> 
> I'll stop here before my post becomes so long everyone skips over it - but how are people going to fulfil their status-seeking/hierarchical behaviour when everyone can have any item possible? Will we be able to reduce human desire for such goods? I'm just wondering how we get from "Here" (21st century consumers) to "there" (future versions of ourselves in a world of 3D printers for all)
> 
> Tom
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

 		 	   		  
_________________________________________________________________
Turn down-time into play-time with Messenger games
http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9734385
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100723/3677f07c/attachment.html>

From dgreer_68 at hotmail.com  Fri Jul 23 15:17:09 2010
From: dgreer_68 at hotmail.com (darren shawn greer)
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 11:17:09 -0400
Subject: [ExI] worth reading
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTik5UzhdKoq605gf1CSq8q2Vs55cV6=vNAzzBSi4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTikSnE84FS7D1eewH36ojrvZ9MisLKBKYqlWKk0K@mail.gmail.com>,
	<AANLkTik5UzhdKoq605gf1CSq8q2Vs55cV6=vNAzzBSi4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <COL112-W513A14FF59E256252CA48F9DA30@phx.gbl>


Does anyone really believe that some people aren't more successful because they're simply more clever? Sure, there are people who are poor/rich because they had the bad/good luck to be born into it, but just as surely there are people who are poor because they suck at being successful and people who have risen from poverty through hard work and good decision making.


There are many ways to define "clever." Rapacious, sly, machivellian, manipulative. People become rich for a variety of reasons, just as some become poor for a variety of others. Robertson Davies postulated in his Deptford Trilogy that the ability to acquire money was a talent and not a skill, the same as writing books or painting pictures was a talent-based activity. I have a friend who lives on two dollars a day after rent and food, and has developed a harmonic matrix theory in computerized music that is being academically investigated, and his work performed, all over the world. I'd hardly call him poor because he's lazy or unsuccessful. In his opinion, he's rich. He has an art, and a good mind.
You've put me in mind of a poem I hadn't thought about in a long time. You probably know it, but here it is anyway.
Richard Cory
User Rating:9.2 /10
(93 votes)
                                                                                             - vote -                                                                                             1                                                                                             2                                                                                             3                                                                                             4                                                                                             5                                                                                             6                                                                                             7                                                                                             8                                                                                             9                                                                                             10                                                                                          
 Print friendly version E-mail this poem to e friend Send this poem as eCard Add this poem to MyPoemList  Whenever Richard Cory went down town, 
We people on the pavement looked at him: 
He was a gentleman from sole to crown, 
Clean-favoured and imperially slim. 

And he was always quietly arrayed, 
And he was always human when he talked; 
But still he fluttered pulses when he said, 
"Good Morning!" and he glittered when he walked. 

And he was rich, yes, richer than a king, 
And admirably schooled in every grace: 
In fine -- we thought that he was everything 
To make us wish that we were in his place. 

So on we worked and waited for the light, 
And went without the meat and cursed the bread, 
And Richard Cory, one calm summer night, 
Went home and put a bullet in his head. 

Edwin Arlington Robinson 




From: sparge at gmail.com
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 09:07:45 -0400
To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
Subject: Re: [ExI] worth reading

On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 10:22 PM, Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> wrote:

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20727692.100-die-young-live-fast-the-evolution-of-an-underclass.html?full=true


A quote:
"There is no reason to view the poor as stupid or in any way different from anyone else, says Daniel Nettle of the University of Newcastle in the UK. All of us are simply human beings, making the best of the hand life has dealt us."


Does anyone really believe that some people aren't more successful because they're simply more clever? Sure, there are people who are poor/rich because they had the bad/good luck to be born into it, but just as surely there are people who are poor because they suck at being successful and people who have risen from poverty through hard work and good decision making.


I'm not sure what that quote has to do with the point of the article, though.
-Dave
 		 	   		  
_________________________________________________________________
Turn down-time into play-time with Messenger games
http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9734385
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100723/50ccaa8b/attachment.html>

From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Fri Jul 23 15:51:10 2010
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 08:51:10 -0700
Subject: [ExI] EP was Sarah Palin
Message-ID: <AANLkTik48=FhpGmv2QYWjcWURN0=ssASgXFZqDQOhN3v@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jul 23, 2010 at 5:00 AM,  BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:

> I am not arguing against your theory in the context of nations going
> to war when the nation faces a choice of starve or war with the
> neighbour nation.

Modern nations are in the tens of millions to hundreds of millions.
It's downright amazing to me that psychological mechanisms evolved in
the context of tribes with that almost never had 100 members scales up
by a factor of a million.

And it is trickier than just starving because the "bleak times
a-coming" detection mechanism has a floating set point, same as most
psychological responses.  (The three bucket experiment also see
Cialdini re the timing of race riots.)

> (Although there could be exceptions even to this
> where the nation doesn't have enough young men to fight a war).

If a nation is starting a war, generally the reason is the results of
high population growth.

> What I have difficulty with is stretching the theory to apply to
> terrorist groups within a nation.

The theory either applies to wars and related social disruptions or it
doesn't.  In any case, where do you draw the line between terrorist
groups and wars?  (The mess in Sri Lanka for example.)

> The IRA never had more than a few
> thousand members. A tiny fraction of the population.

That is true, but they had much, much wider support among Irish
Catholics, even to a substantial extent in the US.  They could not
function without the wider support and when that dried up, so did the
IRA.

> They wanted to
> stop the victimisation of Catholics in Northern Ireland by the
> Protestants who ran everything. When they achieved that objective they
> stopped bombing and shooting. I don't see any need to make the theory
> more complex than that.

The typical reason people feel (and are) victimized is for being poor.
 They are poor to a large extent because there are too many of them
for their ecological niche.  But that's not enough to trigger wars,
what you need is the future looking worse than the present.  And to
make wars or unrest go away, what you need is a brighter future.  At
least that's the way the conditions in the EEA are expected to have
shaped the gene pool.

> Take South Africa for example. The ANC (a former terrorist group) now
> forms the government and the terrorism has stopped.

Terrorism organized by the ANC stopped.  The future prospects for
South Africa are *really* bleak.  The only "bright spot" is the HIV
epidemic.

> Terrorist groups usually arise to fight a specific problem. Once that
> problem is solved, the need for terrorism goes away.

Alternately, you can make a case that the former rulers of SA lost a
war and left.  There were few enough of them to make an exit possible.

> This doesn't deny your theory of why nations go to war. I'm just
> saying it is a stretch to try and apply it to 'little' local problems.

The EP approach should apply better at smaller scales, closer to the
size of hunter gatherer groups.

I don't think this model (I hesitate to call it a theory) of the
evolution of human psychological mechanisms is complete.  But getting
involved in everything from tribal wars to terrorist suicides is
irrational from the viewpoint of the individual.  The point of the
model is that (at least in the past) irrational from an individual
viewpoint was a rational survival strategy for genes in the context of
inclusive fitness.

Keith


From sabrina.ballard at hotmail.com  Fri Jul 23 16:55:33 2010
From: sabrina.ballard at hotmail.com (Sabrina Ballard)
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 12:55:33 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Post-scarcity & positional goods.
In-Reply-To: <COL112-W54AADD657BD66350C6B68E9DA30@phx.gbl>
References: <mailman.1.1279800003.23867.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<492772.21140.qm@web27001.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
	<COL112-W54AADD657BD66350C6B68E9DA30@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <AANLkTika4Fga_wo3pnwkvumxQ3bFdJ39a6twkjGXw=D4@mail.gmail.com>

I believe, with the rise of perfect 3D copies, we will move more to
specialty, handmade items with their "defects"(back to roots fad), or back
to the concept of "who you are is who you know" (networking), or even
perhaps a strength/health/intellect (bioaugmentation) heirarchy. Perhaps
even an information heirarchy - he know knows is king.

What are your thoughts on these various posibilites?
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100723/f74ee6d1/attachment.html>

From sabrina.ballard at hotmail.com  Fri Jul 23 16:49:29 2010
From: sabrina.ballard at hotmail.com (Sabrina Ballard)
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 12:49:29 -0400
Subject: [ExI] NYT: The Technocracy Boom
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimZ226URverjpFuZG55sTu0Dk0QrOsgn8anP2Qt@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1279800003.23867.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<478827.96077.qm@web114407.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<AANLkTinA24gKjq+kdHYPKoJB6mTLQX=RsYbGWK5XK3GJ@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimZ226URverjpFuZG55sTu0Dk0QrOsgn8anP2Qt@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=xDhKdVFU8HuRre8c2pMgyRChwxGPqUKeRdEsj@mail.gmail.com>

You would think that we would become able, in some ways to treat them as a
serperate nation and give them their due sovergnty.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100723/b5c7656a/attachment.html>

From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu  Fri Jul 23 18:54:59 2010
From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan)
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 11:54:59 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Religions and violence
In-Reply-To: <478393.67459.qm@web114404.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.1316.1279761757.10820.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<478393.67459.qm@web114404.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20100723185459.GA17785@ofb.net>

On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 03:19:19PM -0700, Ben Zaiboc wrote:

> This is further complicated by the existence of 'Taqqiya'.  There is
> only one religion that I know of that explicitly encourages its
> members to tell lies in order to further its ends.

The Druze?
Mystery cults?
Scientology?

-xx- Damien X-) 


From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu  Fri Jul 23 19:03:07 2010
From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan)
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 12:03:07 -0700
Subject: [ExI] New IP thread
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinSsPAXCEnJGUN4DTMujAH-PFfgFVp3UVwQGBwp@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTik6HN5eiznfgTDtVnowqsbpFUs+YR6abW6g0mon@mail.gmail.com>
	<838247.6687.qm@web81603.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<AANLkTinSsPAXCEnJGUN4DTMujAH-PFfgFVp3UVwQGBwp@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20100723190307.GB17785@ofb.net>

On Wed, Jul 21, 2010 at 03:26:19PM -0700, Rafal Smigrodzki wrote:

> What IP-deniers say boils down to claiming that any act of disclosure
> of information automatically authorizes copying, even if the
> disclosure is explicitly accompanied by restrictions on use of the
> information. They deny that voluntary participation in the exchange of
> information may be accompanied by legitimate limitations on some
> further uses of that informantion - but only when it suits them. When

Wrong again.

Of course Bob may consent to duplication restrictions on some
information, as a condition of being told that information by Alice.
NDAs.  No one denies that.

But if Bob breaks the NDA and tells Carol, Carol has not consented to
any such restriction.  IP-deniers deny that Alice has a right to impose
restrictions on what Carol can do with what are now her thoughts.
Copyright, backed up by a government, gives Alice that power anyway.  As
do privacy laws, also backed up by a government.

-xx- Damien X-) 


From thespike at satx.rr.com  Fri Jul 23 19:42:34 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 14:42:34 -0500
Subject: [ExI] How To Post Good
In-Reply-To: <COL112-W54AADD657BD66350C6B68E9DA30@phx.gbl>
References: <mailman.1.1279800003.23867.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>,
	<492772.21140.qm@web27001.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
	<COL112-W54AADD657BD66350C6B68E9DA30@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <4C49F0AA.5090103@satx.rr.com>

On 7/23/2010 6:33 AM, darren shawn greer wrote:
> Tom:
>
> Personal opinion,. but I liked your post. I was considering yesterday
> unsubscribing from this list, because it seemed an inordinate amount of
> time was being spent discussing religion and politics.

A semiotics point: if you broke your extraordinarily long pars down into 
blocks only a few sentences long, people might be more inclined to read 
them and respond.

Damien Broderick


From max at maxmore.com  Fri Jul 23 20:29:50 2010
From: max at maxmore.com (max at maxmore.com)
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 15:29:50 -0500
Subject: [ExI] La Spirale interview online
In-Reply-To: <20100723190307.GB17785@ofb.net>
References: <AANLkTik6HN5eiznfgTDtVnowqsbpFUs+YR6abW6g0mon@mail.gmail.com>
	<838247.6687.qm@web81603.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<AANLkTinSsPAXCEnJGUN4DTMujAH-PFfgFVp3UVwQGBwp@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100723190307.GB17785@ofb.net>
Message-ID: <20100723152950.vl4boxjotck4ksoo@webmail.maxmore.com>

For those of you who read French, or want some practice, the La  
Spirale interview with me is now online.

It's here: http://www.laspirale.org/texte.php?id=305

I'll be posting an English version soon, so if you don't read French,  
don't bother getting a (poor) automatic translation.

Max





From natasha at natasha.cc  Fri Jul 23 20:34:34 2010
From: natasha at natasha.cc (natasha at natasha.cc)
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 16:34:34 -0400
Subject: [ExI] La Spirale interview online
In-Reply-To: <20100723152950.vl4boxjotck4ksoo@webmail.maxmore.com>
References: <AANLkTik6HN5eiznfgTDtVnowqsbpFUs+YR6abW6g0mon@mail.gmail.com>
	<838247.6687.qm@web81603.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<AANLkTinSsPAXCEnJGUN4DTMujAH-PFfgFVp3UVwQGBwp@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100723190307.GB17785@ofb.net>
	<20100723152950.vl4boxjotck4ksoo@webmail.maxmore.com>
Message-ID: <20100723163434.ogkkzetvw0okwokc@webmail.natasha.cc>

Congratulations Max!

Quoting max at maxmore.com:

> For those of you who read French, or want some practice, the La Spirale
> interview with me is now online.
>
> It's here: http://www.laspirale.org/texte.php?id=305
>
> I'll be posting an English version soon, so if you don't read French,
> don't bother getting a (poor) automatic translation.
>
> Max
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat





From pharos at gmail.com  Fri Jul 23 20:45:06 2010
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 21:45:06 +0100
Subject: [ExI] How To Post Good
In-Reply-To: <4C49F0AA.5090103@satx.rr.com>
References: <mailman.1.1279800003.23867.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<492772.21140.qm@web27001.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
	<COL112-W54AADD657BD66350C6B68E9DA30@phx.gbl>
	<4C49F0AA.5090103@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTink7QiS_FT=rm59e0jkT0=mK9WL_YdngS7escJu@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jul 23, 2010 at 8:42 PM, Damien Broderick  wrote:
> On 7/23/2010 6:33 AM, darren shawn greer wrote:
>>
>> Tom:
>>
>> Personal opinion,. but I liked your post. I was considering yesterday
>> unsubscribing from this list, because it seemed an inordinate amount of
>> time was being spent discussing religion and politics.
>
> A semiotics point: if you broke your extraordinarily long pars down into
> blocks only a few sentences long, people might be more inclined to read them
> and respond.
>
>


Posting in plain text would be helpful as well.

HTML posts get messy in the list archives as the Mailman software
attempts to convert everything to plain text.

(And some list members may use mail clients that expect plain text.
Not quite everyone in the world uses gmail or hotmail).

BillK


From giulio at gmail.com  Fri Jul 23 21:00:50 2010
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 23:00:50 +0200
Subject: [ExI] La Spirale interview online
In-Reply-To: <20100723152950.vl4boxjotck4ksoo@webmail.maxmore.com>
References: <AANLkTik6HN5eiznfgTDtVnowqsbpFUs+YR6abW6g0mon@mail.gmail.com>
	<838247.6687.qm@web81603.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<AANLkTinSsPAXCEnJGUN4DTMujAH-PFfgFVp3UVwQGBwp@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100723190307.GB17785@ofb.net>
	<20100723152950.vl4boxjotck4ksoo@webmail.maxmore.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTim8qPvtqS5S_88K2ArriSChz72WYQwXmCSHJKgS@mail.gmail.com>

Great interview Max!

--
Giulio Prisco
giulio at gmail.com
(39)3387219799

On Jul 23, 2010 10:30 PM, <max at maxmore.com> wrote:

For those of you who read French, or want some practice, the La Spirale
interview with me is now online.

It's here: http://www.laspirale.org/texte.php?id=305

I'll be posting an English version soon, so if you don't read French, don't
bother getting a (poor) automatic translation.

Max



_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100723/5d29ca35/attachment.html>

From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Fri Jul 23 22:19:11 2010
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 15:19:11 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Hypatia- a secular saint
Message-ID: <AANLkTinP0_Y7fG=QSkzczrPOq49kP0L0uQASLygiax5-@mail.gmail.com>

I came across a FB link about Hypatia and it caused me to recall Carl
Sagan's comments about her in Cosmos.  I would say she is a "secular
saint" and in some ways was born many centuries too early (though she
was definitely needed in her own time).

A short but sweet overview of her life...

http://www.womanastronomer.com/hypatia.htm

The Wikipedia entry that has some interesting nuggets of information...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypatia

An emotionally powerful excerpt from the Cosmos series about Hypatia...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LuzcO4mWoco

The Infidel Guy program about her...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kF1oJ1RuIf0

John  : )


From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Fri Jul 23 22:23:33 2010
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 15:23:33 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Hypatia- a secular saint
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinP0_Y7fG=QSkzczrPOq49kP0L0uQASLygiax5-@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTinP0_Y7fG=QSkzczrPOq49kP0L0uQASLygiax5-@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimmq5+4QL7HX24nXmp06GqxFF8N2rV3SrZRyC_p@mail.gmail.com>

This is the website for the author who was interviewed on The Infidel
Guy show...

http://www.rememberinghypatia.com/

John

On 7/23/10, John Grigg <possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com> wrote:
> I came across a FB link about Hypatia and it caused me to recall Carl
> Sagan's comments about her in Cosmos.  I would say she is a "secular
> saint" and in some ways was born many centuries too early (though she
> was definitely needed in her own time).
>
> A short but sweet overview of her life...
>
> http://www.womanastronomer.com/hypatia.htm
>
> The Wikipedia entry that has some interesting nuggets of information...
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypatia
>
> An emotionally powerful excerpt from the Cosmos series about Hypatia...
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LuzcO4mWoco
>
> The Infidel Guy program about her...
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kF1oJ1RuIf0
>
> John  : )
>


From steinberg.will at gmail.com  Fri Jul 23 21:54:46 2010
From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg)
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 17:54:46 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Religions and violence
In-Reply-To: <20100723185459.GA17785@ofb.net>
References: <mailman.1316.1279761757.10820.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<478393.67459.qm@web114404.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<20100723185459.GA17785@ofb.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinVhj0sg-OBi21FNsYhu-967_bUv=RZwzM3NqNv@mail.gmail.com>

These things are only problems in the eyes of fundamentalists.  There are
reform/protestant Islamic groups just as in any other religion.  I really
don't understand; there are reprehensible passages in every bible.  The
Torah is full of misogyny and bizarre law, but I'm sure that when I say I
know a Jewish guy you don't think of that.  It makes more sense to think of
a Common Joe (Jomar?) Muslim just as you would any other religion.    If you
want to blanket all followers of a religion by the specifics of their texts,
be prepared to condemn a lot more people.  Which isn't to say religion is
good.  But at least keep your arguments tight*.



* , John K Clark
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100723/6fd985f2/attachment.html>

From jrd1415 at gmail.com  Fri Jul 23 22:38:04 2010
From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis)
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 15:38:04 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Religions and violence [Was Re: Sarah Palin]
In-Reply-To: <B502B0B7-EBC6-472C-B377-7D40732EF526@bellsouth.net>
References: <201007211513.o6LFDcxv019859@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<20100721194356.GC23426@ofb.net>
	<4135667C-A61C-44E5-8477-04E6BA1FDC3A@bellsouth.net>
	<AANLkTimiTa1WFDUfRmwx3PWJKbSpPkLU_RxQeNNdMDHz@mail.gmail.com>
	<B502B0B7-EBC6-472C-B377-7D40732EF526@bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikFV+LFy9mwFB_XLHgHgCK0sH4L-hvPqyekzNY7@mail.gmail.com>

2010/7/23 John Clark <jonkc at bellsouth.net>:

> I believe you can think of a
> cultural factor that is astronomically more likely to be the source of that
> HUGE Nobel deficit among the Islamic than bagels, but will not admit it

My speculation:

The Jews are successful because their historical coincidences
pushed them in the direction of mercantilism and finance capitalism.
History shows that these two economic practices promote modernity and
greater productivity.  The Jews have thus become rich by devoting
themselves to practices that enrich themselves and the wider world.
And they employed that wealth in practices -- education and culture --
which further enhanced both their wealth and pursuit of progress.  So
far it's mostly good.  I'll leave elaboration of the downside -- the
depredations of war-loving rapacious capitalism fueled by the
abundance of industrial productivity -- to "the reader".

Islam has followed a course more in line with religious conservatism.
That this has held Muslims "back" from the "blessings" of modernity,
seems a reasonable conclusion from what we see of the Muslim
"condition" today.  So the Muslim culture seems inclined to live by
traditional values and to not manifest the same enthusiasm for
cultural change via technology as the West.  And yes, I see this as a
consequence of the inherently conservative nature of the religious
practice -- Islam -- which is at the center of Muslim lives.

But -- and you knew this was coming -- where is it written that
smartness, or wealth, or Nobel Prizes is the metric by which to judge
one group "better" than another?

[Nobel invented the "death material", sold it by the ton, at
apparently a substantial profit, to the power elite of various
sovereign "nations" eager to employ it  killing and destroying their
way to dominance over their competitors.   Now this does not bear
directly on the issue: Jews progressive,smart, and constructive vs
Muslims stagnant, brain damaged, and destructive.  But if one
considers the downside, rebranding the Nobel prize as the Capitalist
Megadeath prize, then that 165 to 6 comparison doesn't quite feel as
impressive as before.]

So where are we?  Islam ended its militarily advance in Europe with
the Western pushback in Spain in the west and Vienna in the east,
settling into a period of consolidation and stability.   Then the
West, facilitated by finance capitalism, took up the imperialist
mantle, and starting in the mid 1300's, began conquering the world.
They tried to conquer the Muslim lands as well, but with only mixed
and temporary success, and with the sort of defensive pushback -- from
the Muslims this time -- one would naturally expect.

It's no crime to want to live the way you and yours have lived since
before you can remember.  The inventor of the better mousetrap, the
Collateralized Debt Obligation, or the tractor is not morally superior
to the cat owner, the guy who keeps his money in his mattress, or the
guy who plows his field with an ox.

When I was a youngster, there was a notion floating about that
intelligence was the criteria for who was "superior".  (It was a
thinly-veiled racist notion, reflecting the American view that blacks
were intellectually inferior.  I spotted the underlying racism and its
fallacy, which inevitably led to a question, "What ***IS*** a valid
basis for judging one person superior to another?  I'll let you all
assemble your own criteria, but it ain't intelligence or wealth.

The Western world is in full-throated Muslim-hating mode, with medias,
governments, and cultural groups all going at it pedal to the metal.
Can't blame anyone for getting caught up in that.  It's a human
failing, alas.  But the reality is the Muslim world is weak and
backward -- but no longer poor -- and has been on the defensive now,
defending itself against ***WESTERN AGGRESSIVENESS*** for a thousand
years.  Their militancy is defensive and justified.

Demonization is poor preparation for an accurate assessment of reality.

I've no beef with John Clark, he's excellent on scientific matters,
but on this particular social issue, well,... clearly we disagree.

I've spent too much time on this, so however clunky and disjointed it
may be, this is how I'm leaving it.

Best, Jeff Davis

I know it is a weakness of human nature to become
emotionally invested in inconsequential tribal spats,
but people who want to be transhumanists need to be
able to get past that almost as a prerequisite.  In fact,
a good portion of the transhumanist ideals are all about shedding this behavior.
                                           j. andrew rogers


From jrd1415 at gmail.com  Fri Jul 23 23:23:23 2010
From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis)
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 16:23:23 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Religions and violence
In-Reply-To: <478393.67459.qm@web114404.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.1316.1279761757.10820.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<478393.67459.qm@web114404.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikqqGNae_vkSPPwBdz8kx4oWELCzMz1iMzVFbns@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 3:19 PM, Ben Zaiboc

> There is only one religion that I know of that explicitly encourages its members to tell lies in order to further its ends.

Politicians of all stripes of course, but explicitly, the
Neoconservatives take from their founder Leo Strauss the explicit
direction to lie in order to achieve their ends.  They declare
outcomes to be everything, ethics to be quaint,  themselves to be the
illuminati, superior in their thinking, superior in their actions,
superior in their effectiveness, above the social contract and above
the childlike restraints imposed by ethics.

Admittedly, Neoconsevatism is not a religion.

Best, Jeff Davis

      "The whole problem with the world is that fools
              and fanatics are always so certain of themselves,
                           and wiser people so full of doubts."
                                                   Bertrand Russell


From jims at eos.arc.nasa.gov  Fri Jul 23 23:12:01 2010
From: jims at eos.arc.nasa.gov (Jim Stevenson)
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 16:12:01 -0700
Subject: [ExI] plain text strange = chars was   Not very bright
Message-ID: <201007232312.o6NNC1Bf010650@eos.arc.nasa.gov>

Hi.

What are all those strange characters starting with =?

They seem to clutter up posts with mime attached html.
They are generated by Winblow$ and its email programs,
and unix can not decode them.

Is the attached html really of any use to those who read with speech?

I would much appreciate a copy of this post 
without the strange chars starting with =?

--

To iliminate those strange = chars,
Please answer in plain text, not mime attached html.

Thanks much again as always.
Jim

Please forgive if you really want to attach html 
and are using its features.

Do you know that you are posting in mime attached duplicate html?
Can you please explain why the mime attached html?
If so, may I please ask  which mail program is creating these html attachments, 
under which OS, and why?
I am absolutely certain that it is not my mail program, or anything on my end,
though your mail program may hide them from you.
This is why others may not have pointed out the mime attached html problem.

Your mime attached html post, which I have appended,
is exactly what I received.

Are you using html to display anything other than plain text?
Unless you really are using the html features,
the defaults should be set to both post and answer in plain text,
or uuencode, if plain text is not an option.
your answer mode should also be set to
answer in plain text, or answer in uuencode,
not to answer in kind.

I am most concerned about viruses in unintended attachments.

If you must quote me, please put your comments first.
I have already listened to mine.

I read email with speech,
So it is not possible to scroll past the html and quotes 
without listening to them again,
and the mime code after the header is not speech friendly.
to quickly get to the new information.
The mime attached html is far from speech friendly!

--

Thanks much again as always.


>From extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org  Thu Jul 15 23:19:10 2010
Return-Path: <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org>
Received: from pagent1.arc.nasa.gov (pagent1.arc.nasa.gov [128.102.31.161])
	by eos.arc.nasa.gov (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id o6G6JAmv007931
	for <jims at eos.arc.nasa.gov>; Thu, 15 Jul 2010 23:19:10 -0700
Received: from andromeda.ziaspace.com (andromeda.ziaspace.com [192.80.49.10])
	by pagent1.arc.nasa.gov (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id o6G6J8kC010071
	(version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL)
	for <jims at eos.arc.nasa.gov>; Thu, 15 Jul 2010 23:19:09 -0700
Received: from andromeda.ziaspace.com. (IDENT:95 at localhost [IPv6:::1])
	by andromeda.ziaspace.com (8.14.4/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o6G6G9uj001298;
	Fri, 16 Jul 2010 06:18:42 GMT
Received: from web81504.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web81504.mail.mud.yahoo.com
	[68.142.199.144])
	by andromeda.ziaspace.com (8.14.4/8.14.3) with SMTP id o6G6G32h016535
	for <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>; Fri, 16 Jul 2010 06:16:04 GMT
Received: (qmail 63786 invoked by uid 60001); 16 Jul 2010 05:49:17 -0000
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=att.net; s=s1024;
	t=1279259357; bh=N23XEmSDfPcW0nIa8UNK7PkGlwjHoVjo6dhU7OQQexQ=;
	h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type;
	b=zaIa5ckdckqwoFhjIrmENOCBDlM1gVZDoLnIu7pyX9zRz0gC6hC4qIlafwcMnj1frn9LFNbM3OtytJ3t7uhg8uaw5nKOPOGTTGW5IshdhsnW6FTQNrH5ReUZKfGTpw4oQ97RZvSxEvWo+jV30zFi/Jui36FBz8zdmiLe+yIPuI0=
DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=att.net;
	h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type;
	b=h2iKMIb/MrNHvI5N9rjK9pZJ0pAjfd8vo28ftxk9jk3s/aCmqFgVZXdXUhLCB1uDby76aLHQ4Dc29NrXEusp5+0e8XA0ngGyNzmlyAcLHpYxWE6yKEowrlUrwu9o8GGIEFc6ZIK9NW5ZL/IIIfwS3t0vdnQ2J/lbJRs4NYs3OAw=;
Message-ID: <170864.62493.qm at web81504.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
X-YMail-OSG: iKwzU6oVM1nVmf6GuxTXpPdPqjiEAQ9yJgxO7DAxHefxi4C
	G4PntJBge7b6yDuSmd0mUQMFMTz67OdqDnzeyAoMdb8Vv5vxwiL4SF5m.Q6t
	mkaKLRXRD8Amgdh6DTU.X9OFgm52s0P4PBeEtmcQvw24wXTPzSysezJSL5_u
	6xNRaXzvhAbYJM36rBOCz.qpH.wbJhNZGyQhKAGPgBCV2mtOKfMKoYvPODkS
	iWOjsE56UevP6ERPZLMj6QBmNTbDaSP4rNXURd6_GSU8RRaokUegCIzVurfB
	5wvjh6yRX0zA8_T5cm3DODP7adh.EKAawmpA-
Received: from [99.137.91.247] by web81504.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP;
	Thu, 15 Jul 2010 22:49:16 PDT
X-Mailer: YahooMailClassic/11.2.4 YahooMailWebService/0.8.104.276605
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 22:49:16 -0700 (PDT)
From: Gregory Jones <spike66 at att.net>
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
In-Reply-To: <4C3F8AE6.4050105 at satx.rr.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.5 (andromeda.ziaspace.com [IPv6:::1]); Fri, 16 Jul 2010 06:18:48 +0000 (UTC)
X-Greylist: Delayed for 00:26:39 by milter-greylist-4.2.5
	(andromeda.ziaspace.com [192.80.49.10]);
	Fri, 16 Jul 2010 06:16:04 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Re: [ExI] Not very bright
X-BeenThere: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12
Precedence: list
Reply-To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
List-Id: ExI chat list <extropy-chat.lists.extropy.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/options.cgi/extropy-chat>, 
	<mailto:extropy-chat-request at lists.extropy.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat>
List-Post: <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
List-Help: <mailto:extropy-chat-request at lists.extropy.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat>, 
	<mailto:extropy-chat-request at lists.extropy.org?subject=subscribe>
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0671372351=="
Sender: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
Errors-To: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:5.0.10011,1.0.148,0.0.0000
 definitions=2010-07-16_01:2010-07-16,2010-07-16,1970-01-01 signatures=0
X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=2 spamscore=2 ipscore=0 phishscore=0
 bulkscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx
 engine=6.0.2-1004200000 definitions=main-1007150174
X-Proofpoint-Bar: *
Status: RO

--===============0671372351==
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1057707716-1279259356=:62493"

--0-1057707716-1279259356=:62493
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable



--- On Thu, 7/15/10, Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com> wrote:
=A0
> Square root of minus 2?? what the hell does that even mean? I have NO ide=
a, and can't see how anyone does.

It's a calculational device, comrade. Like minus 6 pastries. 1.41421356 i.

And you can draw the damned thing easily on a Cartesian graph or plane, whe=
re one axis is the real numbers and the other is the imaginary numbers. Eas=
y as psi. I mean pi.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complex_plane>

Damien Broderick


Ja!=A0 Imaginary numbers are unfortunately named.=A0 If you work with them =
enough, they become real to you.=A0 Controls engineers work in the complex =
plane all the time when doing root locus plots.=A0 You don't want any poles=
 on the right half of that plane, otherwise things go badly quickly.
=A0
Complex numbers soooo cool, and powerful beasts they are!=A0 So much unders=
tanding is available to the prole who masters them.
=A0
spike
=A0
=A0
--0-1057707716-1279259356=:62493
Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<table cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" border=3D"0" ><tr><td valign=3D"=
top" style=3D"font: inherit;"><DIV><BR><BR>--- On <B>Thu, 7/15/10, Damien B=
roderick <I>&lt;thespike at satx.rr.com&gt;</I></B> wrote:</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&gt; Square root of minus 2?? what the hell does that even mean? I hav=
e NO idea, and can't see how anyone does.<BR><BR>It's a calculational devic=
e, comrade. Like minus 6 pastries. 1.41421356 i.<BR><BR>And you can draw th=
e damned thing easily on a Cartesian graph or plane, where one axis is the =
real numbers and the other is the imaginary numbers. Easy as psi. I mean pi=
.<BR><BR>&lt;<A href=3D"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complex_plane" target=
=3D_blank>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complex_plane</A>&gt;<BR><BR>Damien =
Broderick<BR><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Ja!&nbsp; Imaginary numbers are unfortunately named.&nbsp; If you work=
 with them enough, they become real to you.&nbsp; Controls engineers work i=
n the complex plane all the time when doing root locus plots.&nbsp; You don=
't want any poles on the right half of that plane, otherwise things go badl=
y quickly.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Complex numbers soooo cool, and powerful beasts they are!&nbsp; So muc=
h understanding is available to the prole who masters them.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>spike</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV></td></tr></table>
--0-1057707716-1279259356=:62493--

--===============0671372351==
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline

_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

--===============0671372351==--



From dgreer_68 at hotmail.com  Fri Jul 23 23:42:12 2010
From: dgreer_68 at hotmail.com (darren shawn greer)
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 19:42:12 -0400
Subject: [ExI] How To Post Good
In-Reply-To: <4C49F0AA.5090103@satx.rr.com>
References: <mailman.1.1279800003.23867.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>, ,
	<492772.21140.qm@web27001.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>,
	<COL112-W54AADD657BD66350C6B68E9DA30@phx.gbl>,
	<4C49F0AA.5090103@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <COL112-W5421B023B749AC844AA7289DA30@phx.gbl>


A semiotics point: if you broke your extraordinarily long pars down into > blocks only a few sentences long, people might be more inclined to read > them and respond.
Thanks Damien. I know you're right, but it's a style I've developed from writing novels. I'll try to keep it in mind.
Darren

 



> Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 14:42:34 -0500
> From: thespike at satx.rr.com
> To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> Subject: [ExI] How To Post Good
> 
> On 7/23/2010 6:33 AM, darren shawn greer wrote:
> > Tom:
> >
> > Personal opinion,. but I liked your post. I was considering yesterday
> > unsubscribing from this list, because it seemed an inordinate amount of
> > time was being spent discussing religion and politics.
> 
> A semiotics point: if you broke your extraordinarily long pars down into 
> blocks only a few sentences long, people might be more inclined to read 
> them and respond.
> 
> Damien Broderick
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
 		 	   		  
_________________________________________________________________
Learn more ways to connect with your buddies now
http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9734388
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100723/7cd78e50/attachment.html>

From thespike at satx.rr.com  Fri Jul 23 23:45:02 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 18:45:02 -0500
Subject: [ExI] plain text strange = chars was   Not very bright
In-Reply-To: <201007232312.o6NNC1Bf010650@eos.arc.nasa.gov>
References: <201007232312.o6NNC1Bf010650@eos.arc.nasa.gov>
Message-ID: <4C4A297E.6030008@satx.rr.com>

On 7/23/2010 6:12 PM, Jim Stevenson wrote:
> Hi.
>
> What are all those strange characters starting with =?

You didn't identify whom you were addressing. Spike? Me? Someone else?

Damien Broderick



From mbb386 at main.nc.us  Fri Jul 23 23:47:13 2010
From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB)
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 19:47:13 -0400
Subject: [ExI] How To Post Good
In-Reply-To: <COL112-W5421B023B749AC844AA7289DA30@phx.gbl>
References: <mailman.1.1279800003.23867.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>, ,
	<492772.21140.qm@web27001.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>,
	<COL112-W54AADD657BD66350C6B68E9DA30@phx.gbl>,
	<4C49F0AA.5090103@satx.rr.com>
	<COL112-W5421B023B749AC844AA7289DA30@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <497dbfcb1a32130050eb42db4dab9d71.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>



>
> A semiotics point: if you broke your extraordinarily long pars down into > blocks
> only a few sentences long, people might be more inclined to read > them and respond.
> Thanks Damien. I know you're right, but it's a style I've developed from writing
> novels. I'll try to keep it in mind.
> Darren
>
>

It is also difficult to tell what is your post and what is quote. There's bound to
be a setting somewhere....

Regards,
MB



From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Fri Jul 23 23:49:55 2010
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 16:49:55 -0700
Subject: [ExI] worth reading
Message-ID: <AANLkTim-H5MGS3ofHdbDZt=k+BE-yXzrSvA-EUNDrnF-@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jul 23, 2010 at 3:23 PM,  Dave Sill <sparge at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 10:22 PM, Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>> http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20727692.100-die-young-live-fast-the-evolution-of-an-underclass.html?full=true
>
> A quote:
>
> "There is no reason to view the poor as stupid or in any way different from
> anyone else, says Daniel Nettle of the University of Newcastle in the UK.
> All of us are simply human beings, making the best of the hand life has
> dealt us."
>
> Does anyone really believe that some people aren't more successful because
> they're simply more clever? Sure, there are people who are poor/rich because
> they had the bad/good luck to be born into it, but just as surely there are
> people who are poor because they suck at being successful and people who
> have risen from poverty through hard work and good decision making.

Smartness as measured by IQ is less correlated to success as measured
by lifetime earnings than you might think, especially in the higher IQ
standard deviations.

Dr. Clark has a list of personality traits that are almost certainly
genetic.  Those were under heavy selection for more generations than
it took to make tame foxes out of wild ones.

> I'm not sure what that quote has to do with the point of the article,
> though.

It's pure and simple someone trying to put a politically correct
whitewash on the subject.

Keith


From thespike at satx.rr.com  Fri Jul 23 23:50:12 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 18:50:12 -0500
Subject: [ExI] How To Post Good
In-Reply-To: <COL112-W5421B023B749AC844AA7289DA30@phx.gbl>
References: <mailman.1.1279800003.23867.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>, ,
	<492772.21140.qm@web27001.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>,
	<COL112-W54AADD657BD66350C6B68E9DA30@phx.gbl>,
	<4C49F0AA.5090103@satx.rr.com>
	<COL112-W5421B023B749AC844AA7289DA30@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <4C4A2AB4.8040608@satx.rr.com>

On 7/23/2010 6:42 PM, darren shawn greer wrote:

> I know you're right, but it's a style I've developed from writing
> novels. I'll try to keep it in mind.

I've published some 45 books of varying degrees of complexity, many of 
them novels, and yeah, it can be tricky switching formats in mid stream. 
I often find myself disgorging very long email comments or responses and 
then having to go back and throw in par breaks just to make the damned 
thing lisible.

Damien Broderick



From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Sat Jul 24 00:08:10 2010
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 17:08:10 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Religions and violence [Was Re: Sarah Palin]
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=bu8d4uVBB2bEP-_6x7Yx3rL+OMM7znYeKG1bD@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jul 23, 2010 at 3:23 PM,  John Clark <jonkc at bellsouth.net> wrote:

> On Jul 22, 2010, at 6:47 PM, Mike Dougherty wrote:
>
> John Clark:
>>> [Genetically Jews and Arabs] are virtually identical, so some other factor must explain this anomaly and I think we both know what that factor is.
>>
>> New York Deli Pastrami? ?Bagels? ?Nope, I'm unsure what that factor is.
>
> You know what, I flat out don't believe you. I believe you can think of a cultural factor that is astronomically more likely to be the source of that HUGE Nobel deficit among the Islamic than bagels, but will not admit it (perhaps even to yourself) for fear of being called a foe of multiculturalism. I say a spade should be called a spade.

There are worse sins than being a foe of multiculturalism.  You can
make a case that the difference between Jews and Arabs is largely
genetic.  At the current level of reading the genes it would be hard
to tell, but at the same resolution you could not see the difference
in tame foxes and wild ones either and we know that's genetic, we even
have a count on the genes involved and know something about what they
do.

I am not saying culture has nothing to do with the disparity, but at
one time Arab culture was ahead of Western Europe.  That was before
most of the intense selection Clark talks about.  You can also make
good case that the Jews in Europe underwent some heavy selection where
the smart and prudent Jews were the ones who had most of the surviving
children.

If you want to sort out the genetic from the cultural, there were lots
of Jews that never left the mid east and were not subjected to the
some selection pressures.  How do they stack up as Nobel prize
winners?  Or are all the winners European?

All of this will be subjected to scientific investigation as we
connect personality traits to clusters of specific genes.  We will
understand the connections and be able to do something about them just
before it doesn't matter in the least.

Keith



From dgreer_68 at hotmail.com  Sat Jul 24 00:35:54 2010
From: dgreer_68 at hotmail.com (darren shawn greer)
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 20:35:54 -0400
Subject: [ExI] How To Post Good
In-Reply-To: <4C4A2AB4.8040608@satx.rr.com>
References: <mailman.1.1279800003.23867.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>,
	, , <492772.21140.qm@web27001.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>, ,
	<COL112-W54AADD657BD66350C6B68E9DA30@phx.gbl>, ,
	<4C49F0AA.5090103@satx.rr.com>,
	<COL112-W5421B023B749AC844AA7289DA30@phx.gbl>,
	<4C4A2AB4.8040608@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <COL112-W6032C1FCBA92A27376C5E09DA40@phx.gbl>


I've published some 45 books of varying degrees of complexity, many of?
> them novels, and yeah, it can be tricky switching formats in mid stream.?
> I often find myself disgorging very long email comments or responses and?
> then having to go back and throw in par breaks just to make the damned?
> thing lisible.
Yeah, I wrote for a time for an internet-based magazine and they always got to me do that. It felt wrong at first to to put in a break where you know your train of thought or internal composer did not, but the real truth is, when it comes to posting, I'm a lazy bastard. :) Thanks for the heads-up, and I'll
keep that in mind. Was that paragraph break good? (Kidding.)
Darren
?








> Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 18:50:12 -0500
> From: thespike at satx.rr.com
> To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> Subject: Re: [ExI] How To Post Good
> 
> On 7/23/2010 6:42 PM, darren shawn greer wrote:
> 
>> I know you're right, but it's a style I've developed from writing
>> novels. I'll try to keep it in mind.
> 
>?
> Damien Broderick
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
 		 	   		  
_________________________________________________________________
Game on: Challenge friends to great games on Messenger
http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9734387


From thespike at satx.rr.com  Sat Jul 24 00:43:12 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 19:43:12 -0500
Subject: [ExI] How To Post Good
In-Reply-To: <COL112-W6032C1FCBA92A27376C5E09DA40@phx.gbl>
References: <mailman.1.1279800003.23867.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>, , ,
	<492772.21140.qm@web27001.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>, ,
	<COL112-W54AADD657BD66350C6B68E9DA30@phx.gbl>, ,
	<4C49F0AA.5090103@satx.rr.com>,
	<COL112-W5421B023B749AC844AA7289DA30@phx.gbl>,
	<4C4A2AB4.8040608@satx.rr.com>
	<COL112-W6032C1FCBA92A27376C5E09DA40@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <4C4A3720.1060704@satx.rr.com>

On 7/23/2010 7:35 PM, darren shawn greer wrote:

> put in a break where you know your train of thought or internal composer did not, but the real truth is, when it comes to posting, I'm a lazy bastard. :) Thanks for the heads-up, and I'll
> keep that in mind. Was that paragraph break good? (Kidding.)

No, because it wasn't one, it needed ^p^p not just ^p.


From dgreer_68 at hotmail.com  Sat Jul 24 01:01:55 2010
From: dgreer_68 at hotmail.com (darren shawn greer)
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 21:01:55 -0400
Subject: [ExI] How To Post Good
In-Reply-To: <4C4A3720.1060704@satx.rr.com>
References: <mailman.1.1279800003.23867.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>, ,
	,,<492772.21140.qm@web27001.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>,
	,,<COL112-W54AADD657BD66350C6B68E9DA30@phx.gbl>,
	, , <4C49F0AA.5090103@satx.rr.com>, ,
	<COL112-W5421B023B749AC844AA7289DA30@phx.gbl>, ,
	<4C4A2AB4.8040608@satx.rr.com>,
	<COL112-W6032C1FCBA92A27376C5E09DA40@phx.gbl>,
	<4C4A3720.1060704@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <COL112-W345B656396E7D45A97652C9DA40@phx.gbl>





?> No, because it wasn't one, it needed ^p^p not just ^p.





Yah. Tried that one in plain text, because someone else suggested rich text might not cut it for some mail clients. Really back-fired on me, but ego-reduction, right? I am not the sum of my ideas, thank god.
D.






----------------------------------------
> Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 19:43:12 -0500
> From: thespike at satx.rr.com
> To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> Subject: Re: [ExI] How To Post Good
>
> On 7/23/2010 7:35 PM, darren shawn greer wrote:
>
>> put in a break where you know your train of thought or internal composer did not, but the real truth is, when it comes to posting, I'm a lazy bastard. :) Thanks for the heads-up, and I'll
>> keep that in mind. Was that paragraph break good? (Kidding.)
>

> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
 		 	   		  
_________________________________________________________________
Turn down-time into play-time with Messenger games
http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9734385


From dgreer_68 at hotmail.com  Sat Jul 24 02:18:01 2010
From: dgreer_68 at hotmail.com (darren shawn greer)
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 22:18:01 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Religions and violence
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikqqGNae_vkSPPwBdz8kx4oWELCzMz1iMzVFbns@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1316.1279761757.10820.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>,
	<478393.67459.qm@web114404.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>,
	<AANLkTikqqGNae_vkSPPwBdz8kx4oWELCzMz1iMzVFbns@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <COL112-W59EBE17061F864E5B59A259DA40@phx.gbl>


?> Neoconservatives take from their founder Leo Strauss the explicit> direction to lie in order to achieve their ends. They declare
> outcomes to be everything, ethics to be quaint, themselves to be the
> illuminati, superior in their thinking, superior in their actions,
> superior in their effectiveness, above the social contract and above
> the childlike restraints imposed by ethics.


?

I recently read an article by
neo-conservative intellectual Francis Fukuyama and his belief that
transhumanism is the most dangerous idea in the world.?Fukuyama doesn't implicitly
state that transhumanists have the same views about the rest of the world as
stated above, but he implies it.





?http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2004/09/01/transhumanism

Critiques of the article below.
http://reason.com/archives/2004/08/25/transhumanism-the-most-dangero

http://www.nickbostrom.com/papers/dangerous.html









----------------------------------------
> Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 16:23:23 -0700
> From: jrd1415 at gmail.com
> To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> Subject: Re: [ExI] Religions and violence
>
> On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 3:19 PM, Ben Zaiboc
>
>> There is only one religion that I know of that explicitly encourages its members to tell lies in order to further its ends.
>
> Politicians of all stripes of course, but explicitly, the
> Neoconservatives take from their founder Leo Strauss the explicit
> direction to lie in order to achieve their ends. They declare
> outcomes to be everything, ethics to be quaint, themselves to be the
> illuminati, superior in their thinking, superior in their actions,
> superior in their effectiveness, above the social contract and above
> the childlike restraints imposed by ethics.
>
> Admittedly, Neoconsevatism is not a religion.
>
> Best, Jeff Davis
>
> "The whole problem with the world is that fools
> and fanatics are always so certain of themselves,
> and wiser people so full of doubts."
> Bertrand Russell
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
 		 	   		  
_________________________________________________________________
Game on: Challenge friends to great games on Messenger
http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9734387


From pharos at gmail.com  Sat Jul 24 09:27:12 2010
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2010 10:27:12 +0100
Subject: [ExI] plain text strange = chars was Not very bright
In-Reply-To: <4C4A297E.6030008@satx.rr.com>
References: <201007232312.o6NNC1Bf010650@eos.arc.nasa.gov>
	<4C4A297E.6030008@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinUg9F5krTmycLXuaeHYGCeWWdGZdhr6JSUS7Fv@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Jul 24, 2010 at 12:45 AM, Damien Broderick  wrote:
> On 7/23/2010 6:12 PM, Jim Stevenson wrote:
>> What are all those strange characters starting with =?
>
> You didn't identify whom you were addressing. Spike? Me? Someone else?
>
>


In this particular case it was the notorious Mr Gregory Jones.  ;)

Spike appears to be using Yahoo Mail Classic.

To send an email using only plain text in Yahoo! Mail Classic:
    * Follow the Options link in Yahoo! Mail Classic's navigation bar.
    * Select General Preferences under Management.
    * Make sure Compose messages as plain text is selected under
Composing E-mails.
    * Click Save.
    * Click Compose to start your message.

--------------------


Another quite common error is for mail clients to have the default
reply option set to
'Reply in the same format'.
This means that if someone sends an HTML mail, the email client
automatically replies in HTML also.   (It's a virus!).  :)

The safer option is to set the default to plain text. Then if you
*really* want to do a fancy HTML mail with different size fonts,
graphics, etc. then you have to consciously change the options.

BillK


From dgreer_68 at hotmail.com  Sat Jul 24 10:28:30 2010
From: dgreer_68 at hotmail.com (darren shawn greer)
Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2010 06:28:30 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Religions and violence [Was Re: Sarah Palin]
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikFV+LFy9mwFB_XLHgHgCK0sH4L-hvPqyekzNY7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <201007211513.o6LFDcxv019859@andromeda.ziaspace.com>,
	<20100721194356.GC23426@ofb.net>,
	<4135667C-A61C-44E5-8477-04E6BA1FDC3A@bellsouth.net>,
	<AANLkTimiTa1WFDUfRmwx3PWJKbSpPkLU_RxQeNNdMDHz@mail.gmail.com>,
	<B502B0B7-EBC6-472C-B377-7D40732EF526@bellsouth.net>,
	<AANLkTikFV+LFy9mwFB_XLHgHgCK0sH4L-hvPqyekzNY7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <COL112-W34F23FD5814F2E99528C349DA40@phx.gbl>


> Islam has followed a course more in line with religious conservatism.
> That this has held Muslims "back" from the "blessings" of modernity,
> seems a reasonable conclusion from what we see of the Muslim
> "condition" today. So the Muslim culture seems inclined to live by
> traditional values and to not manifest the same enthusiasm for
> cultural change via technology as the West. And yes, I see this as a
> consequence of the inherently conservative nature of the religious
> practice -- Islam -- which is at the center of Muslim lives.

 
Rapacious war-loving capitalism fueled by industrial productivity aside (if that is even possible) I see the issue here as a philosophical one. One of the more pernicious by-products of increasing moral and cultural relativism in the west has been to foster an unsavory political correctness that makes it difficult to confront directly dictatorships and barbaric behavior perceived as arising from cultural differences or practices.
 
 
The trick is finding and enforcing moral/legal standards that apply to all cultures equally, but that does not violate relativism, which is necessary for humanity to move forward and unite the species in common goals, such as technological progress, social equality, etc, etc. When a group of people reject those common goals in deference to their traditional beliefs, we simply don't know what to do with them. I can say with some degree of certainty though that when people reject modernity with acts of violence and barbarism, the one thing you don't want to do is officially declare war on them, which sanctions their acts as legitimate thanks to our own barbaric philosophy of thinking the taking of life within the context of ideological conflict is justified.

 
Cheers,
 
 
Darren
 







 
> Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 15:38:04 -0700
> From: jrd1415 at gmail.com
> To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> Subject: Re: [ExI] Religions and violence [Was Re: Sarah Palin]
> 
> 2010/7/23 John Clark <jonkc at bellsouth.net>:
> 
>> I believe you can think of a
>> cultural factor that is astronomically more likely to be the source of that
>> HUGE Nobel deficit among the Islamic than bagels, but will not admit it
> 
> My speculation:
> 
> The Jews are successful because their historical coincidences
> pushed them in the direction of mercantilism and finance capitalism.
> History shows that these two economic practices promote modernity and
> greater productivity. The Jews have thus become rich by devoting
> themselves to practices that enrich themselves and the wider world.
> And they employed that wealth in practices -- education and culture --
> which further enhanced both their wealth and pursuit of progress. So
> far it's mostly good. I'll leave elaboration of the downside -- the
> depredations of war-loving rapacious capitalism fueled by the
> abundance of industrial productivity -- to "the reader".
> 

> But -- and you knew this was coming -- where is it written that
> smartness, or wealth, or Nobel Prizes is the metric by which to judge
> one group "better" than another?
> 
> [Nobel invented the "death material", sold it by the ton, at
> apparently a substantial profit, to the power elite of various
> sovereign "nations" eager to employ it killing and destroying their
> way to dominance over their competitors. Now this does not bear
> directly on the issue: Jews progressive,smart, and constructive vs
> Muslims stagnant, brain damaged, and destructive. But if one
> considers the downside, rebranding the Nobel prize as the Capitalist
> Megadeath prize, then that 165 to 6 comparison doesn't quite feel as
> impressive as before.]
> 
> So where are we? Islam ended its militarily advance in Europe with
> the Western pushback in Spain in the west and Vienna in the east,
> settling into a period of consolidation and stability. Then the
> West, facilitated by finance capitalism, took up the imperialist
> mantle, and starting in the mid 1300's, began conquering the world.
> They tried to conquer the Muslim lands as well, but with only mixed
> and temporary success, and with the sort of defensive pushback -- from
> the Muslims this time -- one would naturally expect.
> 
> It's no crime to want to live the way you and yours have lived since
> before you can remember. The inventor of the better mousetrap, the
> Collateralized Debt Obligation, or the tractor is not morally superior
> to the cat owner, the guy who keeps his money in his mattress, or the
> guy who plows his field with an ox.
> 
> When I was a youngster, there was a notion floating about that
> intelligence was the criteria for who was "superior". (It was a
> thinly-veiled racist notion, reflecting the American view that blacks
> were intellectually inferior. I spotted the underlying racism and its
> fallacy, which inevitably led to a question, "What ***IS*** a valid
> basis for judging one person superior to another? I'll let you all
> assemble your own criteria, but it ain't intelligence or wealth.
> 
> The Western world is in full-throated Muslim-hating mode, with medias,
> governments, and cultural groups all going at it pedal to the metal.
> Can't blame anyone for getting caught up in that. It's a human
> failing, alas. But the reality is the Muslim world is weak and
> backward -- but no longer poor -- and has been on the defensive now,
> defending itself against ***WESTERN AGGRESSIVENESS*** for a thousand
> years. Their militancy is defensive and justified.
> 
> Demonization is poor preparation for an accurate assessment of reality.
> 
> I've no beef with John Clark, he's excellent on scientific matters,
> but on this particular social issue, well,... clearly we disagree.
> 
> I've spent too much time on this, so however clunky and disjointed it
> may be, this is how I'm leaving it.
> 
> Best, Jeff Davis
> 
> I know it is a weakness of human nature to become
> emotionally invested in inconsequential tribal spats,
> but people who want to be transhumanists need to be
> able to get past that almost as a prerequisite. In fact,
> a good portion of the transhumanist ideals are all about shedding this behavior.
> j. andrew rogers
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat 		 	   		  
_________________________________________________________________
MSN Dating: Find someone special. Start now.
http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9734384


From dgreer_68 at hotmail.com  Sat Jul 24 11:44:16 2010
From: dgreer_68 at hotmail.com (darren shawn greer)
Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2010 07:44:16 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Breaking Protocol: A Critique of The Extropian E-mail List
In-Reply-To: <COL112-W34F23FD5814F2E99528C349DA40@phx.gbl>
References: <201007211513.o6LFDcxv019859@andromeda.ziaspace.com>, ,
	<20100721194356.GC23426@ofb.net>, ,
	<4135667C-A61C-44E5-8477-04E6BA1FDC3A@bellsouth.net>, ,
	<AANLkTimiTa1WFDUfRmwx3PWJKbSpPkLU_RxQeNNdMDHz@mail.gmail.com>, ,
	<B502B0B7-EBC6-472C-B377-7D40732EF526@bellsouth.net>, ,
	<AANLkTikFV+LFy9mwFB_XLHgHgCK0sH4L-hvPqyekzNY7@mail.gmail.com>,
	<COL112-W34F23FD5814F2E99528C349DA40@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <COL112-W5619D727A1AE19707EE66F9DA40@phx.gbl>


I wrote this to a friend of mine this morning, and decided to post it to the list for anyone interested in what a newcomer thinks--at least what I thought and my emotional and intellectual reactions to new situations are fairly typical--when he first joins your group. This may not seem relevant, but I thought some might like to know. It is embarrassingly frank, and I may be breaking some unspoken protocol or etiquette by posting it. But I am an emotional maverick, and have a compulsive need to reveal myself as well as my ideas to anyone I associate with, even virtually.
 
 
 
 
> Begin Quote: "Some of the guys on my discussion list are frighteningly intelligent, with broad ranges on knowledge on every subject you can name. I know I said I was pretty disgusted with the list, and there is some puerile stuff posted there at times. But I think I am also intimidated. Here are men and women thinking about the same things I am, and have been doing so for about ten years longer. Their scientific knowledge is greater by far -- many of them are scientists or science fiction writers or software designers. They can figure our mathematically how may terajoules can be extracted from a kilogram of Thorium, while I have a hard time with basic algebra.  
 
Still, I've decided to stay connected with the list, if only to learn. My refusal, or fear, of associating with other intellectuals has left a deficit in my knowledge. This morning I was reading Leo Strauss (or about him anyway) because of the list, and posted a snippet about cultural and moral relativism presenting challenges to addressing universally abhorrent behavior. 
 
These guys are forcing me to think, and challenging my ideas, promoting a Hegelian dialogue which made me uncomfortable at first. It's true for this writer, and probably for others, that we are not used to immediate criticism. 
 
I think of Spengler, and how a determined reader could argue with his every point as he made it. But his argument for the decline of Faustian culture, and an adherence to the tenets of cultural relativism being necessary for understanding the assumed/assimilated influential cultures of the west, unfolds like a Bach fugue. His ideas, his language, the context, the range of his knowledge serve not just to make an argument but to present one; it is almost as if argument and critical thought is in fact, when duly presented and left uninterrupted, an art in and of itself. 
 
Spengler aside. the list is good for me. It has created new associations, and I'm finding that community I so desperately seek can be taken piece-meal. It would be rare to find in one person or one small group of people all the qualities I admire and crave in others and nurture in myself."< End Quote 		 	   		  
_________________________________________________________________
MSN Dating: Find someone special. Start now.
http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9734384


From bbenzai at yahoo.com  Sat Jul 24 12:05:52 2010
From: bbenzai at yahoo.com (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2010 05:05:52 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Religions and violence
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1347.1279923823.10820.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <747742.28178.qm@web114401.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

Damien Sullivan <phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu> wrote:

> On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 03:19:19PM -0700, Ben Zaiboc
> wrote:
> 
> > This is further complicated by the existence of
> 'Taqqiya'.? There is
> > only one religion that I know of that explicitly
> encourages its
> > members to tell lies in order to further its ends.
> 
> The Druze?
> Mystery cults?
> Scientology?

The Druze are an islamic sect (or at least an offshoot of Islam). As for the others, I'm sure there are many, many cults that encourage their members to lie to outsiders, but we're talking about religions, not cults.

Perhaps I should have said "only one /major/ religion..", as there are bound to be other, minor religions that also advocate lying.

Ben Zaiboc


      




From pharos at gmail.com  Sat Jul 24 13:37:17 2010
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2010 14:37:17 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Breaking Protocol: A Critique of The Extropian E-mail List
In-Reply-To: <COL112-W5619D727A1AE19707EE66F9DA40@phx.gbl>
References: <201007211513.o6LFDcxv019859@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<20100721194356.GC23426@ofb.net>
	<4135667C-A61C-44E5-8477-04E6BA1FDC3A@bellsouth.net>
	<AANLkTimiTa1WFDUfRmwx3PWJKbSpPkLU_RxQeNNdMDHz@mail.gmail.com>
	<B502B0B7-EBC6-472C-B377-7D40732EF526@bellsouth.net>
	<AANLkTikFV+LFy9mwFB_XLHgHgCK0sH4L-hvPqyekzNY7@mail.gmail.com>
	<COL112-W34F23FD5814F2E99528C349DA40@phx.gbl>
	<COL112-W5619D727A1AE19707EE66F9DA40@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <AANLkTim_bnfKBPPLfBKz32qD51Mevn6Pk4LzkQWu8x19@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/24/10, darren shawn greer  wrote:
>
> Begin Quote: "Some of the guys on my discussion list are frighteningly intelligent,
> with broad ranges on knowledge on every subject you can name. I know I said I was
> pretty disgusted with the list, and there is some puerile stuff posted there at times.
> But I think I am also intimidated. Here are men and women thinking about the same
> things I am, and have been doing so for about ten years longer. Their scientific
> knowledge is greater by far -- many of them are scientists or science fiction writers
> or software designers. They can figure our mathematically how may terajoules can
> be extracted from a kilogram of Thorium, while I have a hard time with basic algebra.
>
>


Always remember that very intelligent people can also hold views that
are completely wrong. The intricate pyramid of logic sometimes leads
to the 'wrong' answer. Usually because of something outside the box
that collapses the whole pyramid.

This list has been going for many years and there are some unspoken
assumptions that have been argued through and nobody mentions anymore.
There are also perennial dead horses that are dragged out for a
flogging every year.  :)

Maths is important for validating what is theoretically possible. But
social factors have also got to be included as these affect what is
possible to be built in our society.


> Still, I've decided to stay connected with the list, if only to learn.
>


Hopefully, we are all here to learn.  ;)


>
>  These guys are forcing me to think, and challenging my ideas, promoting a
> Hegelian dialogue which made me uncomfortable at first. It's true for this writer,
> and probably for others, that we are not used to immediate criticism.
>
>


I would have thought that Socratic dialogue was more typical of the list.
"Socrates typically argues by cross-examining his interlocutor's
claims and premises in order to draw out a contradiction or
inconsistency among them."

Hegelian (Kantian) dialectic on the other hand,
"a thesis, giving rise to its reaction, an antithesis, which
contradicts or negates the thesis, and the tension between the two
being resolved by means of a synthesis."
is rare on the list.  I don't remember offhand a discussion that ended
up with the supporters taking the best bits out of each and creating a
compromise.  Engineers do that sort of thing when brainstorming, but
this list is more like two fortresses firing cannonballs at each
other.  :)



BillK


From giulio at gmail.com  Sat Jul 24 13:44:03 2010
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2010 15:44:03 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Breaking Protocol: A Critique of The Extropian E-mail List
In-Reply-To: <COL112-W5619D727A1AE19707EE66F9DA40@phx.gbl>
References: <201007211513.o6LFDcxv019859@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<20100721194356.GC23426@ofb.net>
	<4135667C-A61C-44E5-8477-04E6BA1FDC3A@bellsouth.net>
	<AANLkTimiTa1WFDUfRmwx3PWJKbSpPkLU_RxQeNNdMDHz@mail.gmail.com>
	<B502B0B7-EBC6-472C-B377-7D40732EF526@bellsouth.net>
	<AANLkTikFV+LFy9mwFB_XLHgHgCK0sH4L-hvPqyekzNY7@mail.gmail.com>
	<COL112-W34F23FD5814F2E99528C349DA40@phx.gbl>
	<COL112-W5619D727A1AE19707EE66F9DA40@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikGRm_B-wExzpdyT7htnc7GeJZ773U2D4F8pSW5@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks for posting this Darren. One of the many good aspects of this
list is that it does not have many "protocols" that one can "break". I
have always seen it as a place where smart people gather to discuss
interesting things. This was the first transhumanist discussion list
and, all things considered, it is still the best.

On Sat, Jul 24, 2010 at 1:44 PM, darren shawn greer
<dgreer_68 at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> I wrote this to a friend of mine this morning, and decided to post it to the list for anyone interested in what a newcomer thinks--at least what I thought and my emotional and intellectual reactions to new situations are fairly typical--when he first joins your group. This may not seem relevant, but I thought some might like to know. It is embarrassingly frank, and I may be breaking some unspoken protocol or etiquette by posting it. But I am an emotional maverick, and have a compulsive need to reveal myself as well as my ideas to anyone I associate with, even virtually.
>
>
>
>
>> Begin Quote: "Some of the guys on my discussion list are frighteningly intelligent, with broad ranges on knowledge on every subject you can name. I know I said I was pretty disgusted with the list, and there is some puerile stuff posted there at times. But I think I am also intimidated. Here are men and women thinking about the same things I am, and have been doing so for about ten years longer. Their scientific knowledge is greater by far -- many of them are scientists or science fiction writers or software designers. They can figure our mathematically how may terajoules can be extracted from a kilogram of Thorium, while I have a hard time with basic algebra.
>
> Still, I've decided to stay connected with the list, if only to learn. My refusal, or fear, of associating with other intellectuals has left a deficit in my knowledge. This morning I was reading Leo Strauss (or about him anyway) because of the list, and posted a snippet about cultural and moral relativism presenting challenges to addressing universally abhorrent behavior.
>
> These guys are forcing me to think, and challenging my ideas, promoting a Hegelian dialogue which made me uncomfortable at first. It's true for this writer, and probably for others, that we are not used to immediate criticism.
>
> I think of Spengler, and how a determined reader could argue with his every point as he made it. But his argument for the decline of Faustian culture, and an adherence to the tenets of cultural relativism being necessary for understanding the assumed/assimilated influential cultures of the west, unfolds like a Bach fugue. His ideas, his language, the context, the range of his knowledge serve not just to make an argument but to present one; it is almost as if argument and critical thought is in fact, when duly presented and left uninterrupted, an art in and of itself.
>
> Spengler aside. the list is good for me. It has created new associations, and I'm finding that community I so desperately seek can be taken piece-meal. It would be rare to find in one person or one small group of people all the qualities I admire and crave in others and nurture in myself."< End Quote
> _________________________________________________________________
> MSN Dating: Find someone special. Start now.
> http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9734384
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>



From dsunley at gmail.com  Sat Jul 24 13:17:56 2010
From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley)
Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2010 07:17:56 -0600
Subject: [ExI] NYT: The Technocracy Boom
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=xDhKdVFU8HuRre8c2pMgyRChwxGPqUKeRdEsj@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1279800003.23867.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<478827.96077.qm@web114407.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<AANLkTinA24gKjq+kdHYPKoJB6mTLQX=RsYbGWK5XK3GJ@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimZ226URverjpFuZG55sTu0Dk0QrOsgn8anP2Qt@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTi=xDhKdVFU8HuRre8c2pMgyRChwxGPqUKeRdEsj@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=3cx3gkJZZJS-F9O+XyuAmU3O1zPdyCscpPSZD@mail.gmail.com>

Canada is generally known to be the only nation, in the history of the
world, that ever got it's independence by asking nicely for it. That
was either 150 years ago, or 30 years ago, depending on how you count
it. Either way it hadn't happened before, and hasn't happened since. I
wouldn't count on it happening again.

Darin Sunley
dsunley at shaw.ca

2010/7/23 Sabrina Ballard <sabrina.ballard at hotmail.com>:
>
>
> You would think that we would become able, in some ways to treat them as a
> serperate nation and give them their due sovergnty.
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>


From sockpuppet99 at hotmail.com  Sat Jul 24 14:42:33 2010
From: sockpuppet99 at hotmail.com (Sockpuppet99@hotmail.com)
Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2010 10:42:33 -0400
Subject: [ExI] NYT: The Technocracy Boom
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=3cx3gkJZZJS-F9O+XyuAmU3O1zPdyCscpPSZD@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1279800003.23867.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<478827.96077.qm@web114407.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<AANLkTinA24gKjq+kdHYPKoJB6mTLQX=RsYbGWK5XK3GJ@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimZ226URverjpFuZG55sTu0Dk0QrOsgn8anP2Qt@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTi=xDhKdVFU8HuRre8c2pMgyRChwxGPqUKeRdEsj@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTi=3cx3gkJZZJS-F9O+XyuAmU3O1zPdyCscpPSZD@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BLU0-SMTP65B7D7D5C162BCDD0B92DBCFA40@phx.gbl>


New Zealand? Australia? Plus I think you're forgetting Canada's 1837  
uprising.

TD

Sent from my iPod

On Jul 24, 2010, at 9:17 AM, Darin Sunley <dsunley at gmail.com> wrote:

> Canada is generally known to be the only nation, in the history of the
> world, that ever got it's independence by asking nicely for it. That
> was either 150 years ago, or 30 years ago, depending on how you count
> it. Either way it hadn't happened before, and hasn't happened since. I
> wouldn't count on it happening again.
>
> Darin Sunley
> dsunley at shaw.ca
>
> 2010/7/23 Sabrina Ballard <sabrina.ballard at hotmail.com>:
>>
>>
>> You would think that we would become able, in some ways to treat  
>> them as a
>> serperate nation and give them their due sovergnty.
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>


From msd001 at gmail.com  Sat Jul 24 18:05:21 2010
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2010 14:05:21 -0400
Subject: [ExI] How To Post Good
In-Reply-To: <4C49F0AA.5090103@satx.rr.com>
References: <mailman.1.1279800003.23867.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<492772.21140.qm@web27001.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
	<COL112-W54AADD657BD66350C6B68E9DA30@phx.gbl>
	<4C49F0AA.5090103@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=zE7EqP5XNBp35dEpSaHvF3V84JvZr0fo-Vqk4@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jul 23, 2010 at 3:42 PM, Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com> wrote:
> [snip]


Can you please followup with a thread on how to post evil as a
counterpoint on how to post good?

Otherwise I'll have to assume you meant well.  If you meant well, you
should have written ... well,   "Well."


From jonkc at bellsouth.net  Sat Jul 24 17:39:34 2010
From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John Clark)
Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2010 13:39:34 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Religions and violence
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinVhj0sg-OBi21FNsYhu-967_bUv=RZwzM3NqNv@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1316.1279761757.10820.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<478393.67459.qm@web114404.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<20100723185459.GA17785@ofb.net>
	<AANLkTinVhj0sg-OBi21FNsYhu-967_bUv=RZwzM3NqNv@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <57B041DF-C7B3-4873-BCD2-586CED21E87B@bellsouth.net>

On Jul 23, 2010, at 5:54 PM, Will Steinberg wrote:

> These things are only problems in the eyes of fundamentalists.

And in Islam fundamentalists are the only ones that matter. I don't understand why some people feel it is their moral duty to make excuses for thugs. 

>  There are reform/protestant Islamic groups

If so they are being extraordinarily quiet, they don't demonstrate, they don't speak, and they don't write, or if they do they must live their lives in hiding even if they live in a western country.  

> there are reprehensible passages in every bible.  

True, but most christians and jews have the good sense to ignore the more repulsively ugly parts of their holy book.  Even most fundamentalist christians, although they say and I think really do believe every word in the Bible, don't really believe every word in the bible, like the parts about stoning or that say you should kill your children if they disobey. This is a rare example where doublethink is a good thing. 

Both species of fundamentalists take it as an axiom that every word of their respective holy books are 100% true, therefore I conclude that the Islamic variety is the more logical of the two; the Islamic fundamentalist not only believes every word is good and is divinely inspired but they are prepared to act on it, every part of it, including the hideously cruel and medieval parts. Especially those parts actually.    

> If you want to blanket all followers of a religion

And I do pretty much.

> by the specifics of their texts

But not for that reason. I don't care what's in their book, I don't even much care what they believe, I care what these gangsters do; and I fear in that comparison I may have just maligned the Mafia. 

  John K Clark


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100724/8f279b01/attachment.html>

From pharos at gmail.com  Sat Jul 24 18:36:17 2010
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2010 19:36:17 +0100
Subject: [ExI] How To Post Good
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=zE7EqP5XNBp35dEpSaHvF3V84JvZr0fo-Vqk4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1279800003.23867.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<492772.21140.qm@web27001.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
	<COL112-W54AADD657BD66350C6B68E9DA30@phx.gbl>
	<4C49F0AA.5090103@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTi=zE7EqP5XNBp35dEpSaHvF3V84JvZr0fo-Vqk4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikCFi3tgQfwXMbBXvymSmg6v7NSWtY184eiA-ia@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/24/10, Mike Dougherty  wrote:
> On Fri, Jul 23, 2010 at 3:42 PM, Damien Broderick  wrote:
>  > [snip]
>
>  Can you please followup with a thread on how to post evil as a
>  counterpoint on how to post good?
>
>  Otherwise I'll have to assume you meant well.  If you meant well, you
>  should have written ... well,   "Well."
>
>


It's not his fault. He is from a far away foreign country. Him no
speak English good.  ;)
We oughter help him better speak.


BillK


From msd001 at gmail.com  Sat Jul 24 19:13:45 2010
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2010 15:13:45 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Religions and violence [Was Re: Sarah Palin]
In-Reply-To: <B502B0B7-EBC6-472C-B377-7D40732EF526@bellsouth.net>
References: <201007211513.o6LFDcxv019859@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<20100721194356.GC23426@ofb.net>
	<4135667C-A61C-44E5-8477-04E6BA1FDC3A@bellsouth.net>
	<AANLkTimiTa1WFDUfRmwx3PWJKbSpPkLU_RxQeNNdMDHz@mail.gmail.com>
	<B502B0B7-EBC6-472C-B377-7D40732EF526@bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinYLHDFenDAag0Sc6=7BH0xsww06XR0hitWD70c@mail.gmail.com>

2010/7/23 John Clark <jonkc at bellsouth.net>:
> On Jul 22, 2010, at 6:47 PM, Mike Dougherty wrote:
> Me:
>
> [Genetically Jews and Arabs] are virtually identical, so some other factor
> must explain this anomaly and?I think we both know what that factor is.
>
> New York Deli Pastrami? ?Bagels? ?Nope, I'm unsure what that factor?is.
>
> You know what, I flat out don't believe you. I believe you can think of a
> cultural factor that is astronomically more likely to be the source of that
> HUGE Nobel deficit among the Islamic than bagels, but will not admit it
> (perhaps even to yourself) for fear of being called a foe
> of?multiculturalism. I say a spade should be called a spade.

haha.  I'm just yankin' yer chain.

I'll admit that I am unprepared to be either a friend OR a foe of
multiculturalism.  I live a mostly sheltered American lifestyle.  More
so a sheltered North Eastern American, no - A Pennsylvanian, no - a
narrow regional lifestyle.  I'm not really sure how average or typical
I may be for my own local/state/federal norms.

My wife grew up in an area with an even mix of black/white racial
distribution.  She mostly sees people for who they are before noting
their skin color.  My dad grew up in a homogeneous white community and
had very little interaction with black people in his life.  He will
relate fond memories about coworkers by starting, "This black guy that
I worked with..."  My wife hears that as racism.  I believe my dad is
relating a detail that is significant to his otherwise limited
experience.  He does the same thing with small amount of information
he's received about Italy from the single Italian immigrant he has had
personal interaction with.  So that pizza shop owner is (in my dad's
world) a representative of an entire people group; (and with no other
samples) my dad believes that all Italians are like the one Italian he
knows.  ...or that black people are like the few black people he knew.
 Is this unfair?  I think it's completely natural for how we learn to
associate properties to a group by observing individual members of the
group.  ex: Are dogs friendly?  If the first three dogs you ever
encounter snarl and bite, you are probably less likely to believe that
dogs are categorically friendly.  The exception becomes your rule.

I think the exceptional fundamentalist Christian or Muslim will bias
our perception of the majority because they are more highly visible
than their less extreme members.  If in our daily lives we have no
friendly perception of a group then it is very easy to demonize the
whole group.  It was morally easier to place Japanese Americans in
camps during WWII than it would have been for German Americans because
the majority of Americans are European descendants with friends/family
of German heritage - compared with the otherwise alien "yellow menace"
that triggers the Xenophobic/irrational defense mechanisms.  (more
obvious EP behavioral influence)

The same attitude applies to 'illegals' from Mexico.  It's very easy
to imagine hordes of threatening invaders crossing our borders to
steal public services from entitled Americans and act aggressively to
defend against the attack.  It's much more difficult (even
logistically) to meet and recognize each individual's humanity.  While
I was in Mexico, albeit in the touristy Riviera, I was surprised by
how similar the average person's work-a-day life was to my own.  How
can we judge others who are so like ourselves?

I imagine John will remind me that this thread regards Muslim jihads
and the appropriate response of us infidels to the implicit
declaration of war on our way of life.  I get it.  Christians have a
directive to convert the non-believers too.  Atheists seem compelled
to enlighten the Theists.  Pepsi drinkers try to convert Coke drinkers
and vice-versa.  My idea is better than yours and your idea is better
than mine.  It's a process of ebb and flow.  If we were somehow able
to wipe out all opposition, there would be no reference point in that
dimension.  Some of the life's complexity is lost by homogeneity.  To
the extent that complexity is good or bad depends on available
resource to deal with it.  As we approach the singularity and the rate
of complexity increases, so too does our ability to manage it.
Imbalance between our ability to manage resources and complexity leads
to corrective action (jihads, government increases, civil rights
revocation, etc.)  On a day to day basis though I feel powerless to do
much about it, so what point is there in railing against the process?

Disclaimer:  I intended no ill-will to any of the people groups (or
canines) mentioned in this post.  Religious affiliation, Ethnicity and
Nationality (and species) could easily be changed without affecting
the point I was trying to make.



From thespike at satx.rr.com  Sat Jul 24 19:15:10 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2010 14:15:10 -0500
Subject: [ExI] How To Post Real Good
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=zE7EqP5XNBp35dEpSaHvF3V84JvZr0fo-Vqk4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1279800003.23867.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>	<492772.21140.qm@web27001.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>	<COL112-W54AADD657BD66350C6B68E9DA30@phx.gbl>	<4C49F0AA.5090103@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTi=zE7EqP5XNBp35dEpSaHvF3V84JvZr0fo-Vqk4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4C4B3BBE.60502@satx.rr.com>

On 7/24/2010 1:05 PM, Mike Dougherty wrote:

> Can you please followup with a thread on how to post evil as a
> counterpoint on how to post good?
>
> Otherwise I'll have to assume you meant well.

Get a grip, my good fellow.


From msd001 at gmail.com  Sat Jul 24 19:21:41 2010
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2010 15:21:41 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Religions and violence
In-Reply-To: <57B041DF-C7B3-4873-BCD2-586CED21E87B@bellsouth.net>
References: <mailman.1316.1279761757.10820.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<478393.67459.qm@web114404.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<20100723185459.GA17785@ofb.net>
	<AANLkTinVhj0sg-OBi21FNsYhu-967_bUv=RZwzM3NqNv@mail.gmail.com>
	<57B041DF-C7B3-4873-BCD2-586CED21E87B@bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=E+XNu1n8pD2AJp6uLPUFoKJ2oLe8K5iRp8MeK@mail.gmail.com>

2010/7/24 John Clark <jonkc at bellsouth.net>:
>
> But not for that reason. I don't care what's in their book, I don't even
> much care what they believe, I care what these gangsters do; and I fear in
> that comparison I may have just maligned the Mafia.

... and girl scouts.  There's a bunch who should be stopped.  Cutely
standing about in front of grocery stores, selling overpriced boxes of
cookies with far too little content to satisfy...


From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu  Sat Jul 24 22:27:55 2010
From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan)
Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2010 15:27:55 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Religions and violence
In-Reply-To: <747742.28178.qm@web114401.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.1347.1279923823.10820.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<747742.28178.qm@web114401.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20100724222755.GA29291@ofb.net>

On Sat, Jul 24, 2010 at 05:05:52AM -0700, Ben Zaiboc wrote:

> > The Druze?
> > Mystery cults?
> > Scientology?
> 
> The Druze are an islamic sect (or at least an offshoot of Islam). As
> for the others, I'm sure there are many, many cults that encourage
> their members to lie to outsiders, but we're talking about religions,
> not cults.

"Mystery cults" were not necessarily cults in the modern colloquial
sense.  I'm not sure Scientology can be said to be so, either.  Not that
the difference between cult and religion is clearly anything other than
political.

-xx- Damien X-) 


From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu  Sat Jul 24 22:33:03 2010
From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan)
Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2010 15:33:03 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Religions and violence
In-Reply-To: <57B041DF-C7B3-4873-BCD2-586CED21E87B@bellsouth.net>
References: <mailman.1316.1279761757.10820.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<478393.67459.qm@web114404.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<20100723185459.GA17785@ofb.net>
	<AANLkTinVhj0sg-OBi21FNsYhu-967_bUv=RZwzM3NqNv@mail.gmail.com>
	<57B041DF-C7B3-4873-BCD2-586CED21E87B@bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <20100724223303.GB29291@ofb.net>

On Sat, Jul 24, 2010 at 01:39:34PM -0400, John Clark wrote:
> 
>    And in Islam fundamentalists are the only ones that matter. I don't

Wrong.

>    If so they are being extraordinarily quiet, they don't demonstrate,
>    they don't speak, and they don't write, or if they do they must live
>    their lives in hiding even if they live in a western country.

Or you don't hear them, because the mainstream media doesn't report them
much, and you in your bigotry assume they don't exist.  Have you looked?
Googled [reform Islam] or some version there of?

>      If you want to blanket all followers of a religion
> 
>    And I do pretty much.

"Yes!  I do want to make ignorant blanket statements about 1/6 of the
world's population, over a billion people, the vast majority of whom
have been as inoffensive as any other person!"

-xx- Damien X-) 


From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu  Sat Jul 24 22:48:10 2010
From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan)
Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2010 15:48:10 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Religions and violence [Was Re: Sarah Palin]
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikFV+LFy9mwFB_XLHgHgCK0sH4L-hvPqyekzNY7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <201007211513.o6LFDcxv019859@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<20100721194356.GC23426@ofb.net>
	<4135667C-A61C-44E5-8477-04E6BA1FDC3A@bellsouth.net>
	<AANLkTimiTa1WFDUfRmwx3PWJKbSpPkLU_RxQeNNdMDHz@mail.gmail.com>
	<B502B0B7-EBC6-472C-B377-7D40732EF526@bellsouth.net>
	<AANLkTikFV+LFy9mwFB_XLHgHgCK0sH4L-hvPqyekzNY7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20100724224810.GC29291@ofb.net>

On Fri, Jul 23, 2010 at 03:38:04PM -0700, Jeff Davis wrote:
> 2010/7/23 John Clark <jonkc at bellsouth.net>:
> 
> > I believe you can think of a
> > cultural factor that is astronomically more likely to be the source of that
> > HUGE Nobel deficit among the Islamic than bagels, but will not admit it
> 
> My speculation:
> 
> The Jews are successful because their historical coincidences
> pushed them in the direction of mercantilism and finance capitalism.

Some would say a subculture that gave status based on Talmud mastery --
literacy and logic -- helped too.

But, when we're talking about Jews and Nobels, are we talking Ashkenazi,
Sephardim, Mizrahi, and Ethiopian Jews in equal parts?  Were Jews always
considered supersmart?  (Tangentially, are we remembering that early in
the 20th century, the champions of basketball were Jewish?)  Or is
reality more complicated than simply what religion one sort-of follows?

> Islam has followed a course more in line with religious conservatism.
> That this has held Muslims "back" from the "blessings" of modernity,

There's also the cursive nature of Arabic, which was harder to print,
and conservatism regarding Arabic and the Koran -- conservatism indeed,
but of a different sort from the usual.

> "condition" today.  So the Muslim culture seems inclined to live by
> traditional values and to not manifest the same enthusiasm for
> cultural change via technology as the West.  And yes, I see this as a

Yet there's been a lot of change.  In both directions, for AIUI, the
Islamic fundamentalists are as much a reaction to the 19th century as
Christian ones were.  Wahabiism isn't an ancient tradition but something
more like the Southern Baptist Church, albeit more successful.  Ditto
the Taliban -- 1920s Kabul was rapidly modernizing, women in Western
clothes and all.  Saddam's Iraq was quite nice for women, relative to
the neighbors, until it became more conservative under the poverty of
sanctions.  Muslims aren't a static unchanging Other.

-xx- Damien X-) 


From colin.dodson at gmail.com  Sat Jul 24 23:26:21 2010
From: colin.dodson at gmail.com (Colin D)
Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2010 18:26:21 -0500
Subject: [ExI] NYT: Amazon Says E-Books Now Top Hardcover Sales
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikgwxecOyMTASIhnGIqmxN9QY_Kq_9VVACPNRgS@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTintxWk4beHTlVB9OzCsJ69KC8rFdp-kaZwKtXKi@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTiljrST8F-uck1xPnUH5ZzeidL_iR2MC4WnRT4V_@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTim3mqeeotGnplA4clfWVxg7qPp5VgeZE_hyCYdO@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikgwxecOyMTASIhnGIqmxN9QY_Kq_9VVACPNRgS@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=adE9Q-FmKdi-JifFxuYqJBwic2OCOcRxMPa7V@mail.gmail.com>

That's only so long as users have the rights to use their computers as they
wish. Unfortunately, this seemingly obvious right is under attack.

On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 5:38 PM, Mike Dougherty <msd001 at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 11:49 AM, Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Come on Colin. Young hackers will fix that in no time.
> >
> > 2010/7/22 Colin D <colin.dodson at gmail.com>:
> >> I am saddened by this. Unfortunately, most ebook platforms are heavily
> >> DRM-encumbered and tightly controlled by their vendors. No amount of
> >> convenience can justify such behavior-if I purchase a piece of hardware,
> I
> >> should get to decide what it does, and proprietary software solutions
> take
> >> that away from me. Even worse, DRM mandates conformity to a single or a
> few
> >> platforms, all of which will be proprietary, and thus beyond the user's
> >> control.
>
>
> Perhaps using a printer and some form of binding the output into a
> portable form with either a soft paper or hard backing to protect the
> words within...
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100724/02573848/attachment.html>

From moulton at moulton.com  Sun Jul 25 10:27:19 2010
From: moulton at moulton.com (Fred C. Moulton)
Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2010 03:27:19 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Religions and violence
In-Reply-To: <57B041DF-C7B3-4873-BCD2-586CED21E87B@bellsouth.net>
References: <mailman.1316.1279761757.10820.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<478393.67459.qm@web114404.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<20100723185459.GA17785@ofb.net>
	<AANLkTinVhj0sg-OBi21FNsYhu-967_bUv=RZwzM3NqNv@mail.gmail.com>
	<57B041DF-C7B3-4873-BCD2-586CED21E87B@bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <1280053639.26076.469.camel@desktop-linux>

On Sat, 2010-07-24 at 13:39 -0400, John Clark wrote:

> If so they are being extraordinarily quiet, they don't demonstrate,
> they don't speak, and they don't write, or if they do they must live
> their lives in hiding even if they live in a western country.  
> 

I think that the statements are wrong.  As someone else has already
pointed out this is not that difficult to research.

I find the continual repetition of overly broad generalizations and
inaccurate statements to be a getting a bit old.  I sense that this
might be an emotionally charged issue for some persons and thus I
recommend some basic research and a more nuanced approach rather than
what we have seen recently.  After all this is the Extropian list, we
should have high goals and standards.

Regards

Fred



 




From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Sun Jul 25 15:39:52 2010
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2010 08:39:52 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Religions and violence
Message-ID: <AANLkTinvQ_mqCwJSC43B_BwOTxyWLoQEbdgH1K6FDoP-@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jul 25, 2010 at 5:00 AM,  John Clark <jonkc at bellsouth.net> wrote:

> On Jul 23, 2010, at 5:54 PM, Will Steinberg wrote:

snip

>> there are reprehensible passages in every bible.
>
> True, but most christians and jews have the good sense to ignore the more repulsively ugly parts of their holy book.

The EP models states that under population stress the respective memes
would mutate back to the ugly parts being important.  The formation of
the state of Israel demonstrated that.  As for Christians . . .

"The Cathars spent much of 1209 fending off the crusaders. The leader
of the crusaders, Simon de Montfort, resorted to primitive
psychological warfare. He ordered his troops to gouge out the eyes of
100 prisoners, cut off their noses and lips, then send them back to
the towers led by a prisoner with one remaining eye."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catharism#Massacre

The problem of war, terrorism and related social unrest is not one
particular religion, the problem isn't religion at all.  The problem
is evolved human psychological mechanisms that are activated by
population stress.  The stress is almost always relieved by a
substantial fraction of the population(s) in contact dying.

If you wanted to see Islam become a peaceful religion, figure out how
to raise the average income per capita over a long term for those
peoples.

Keith


From jonkc at bellsouth.net  Sun Jul 25 16:02:50 2010
From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John Clark)
Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2010 12:02:50 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Religions and violence.
In-Reply-To: <20100724223303.GB29291@ofb.net>
References: <mailman.1316.1279761757.10820.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<478393.67459.qm@web114404.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<20100723185459.GA17785@ofb.net>
	<AANLkTinVhj0sg-OBi21FNsYhu-967_bUv=RZwzM3NqNv@mail.gmail.com>
	<57B041DF-C7B3-4873-BCD2-586CED21E87B@bellsouth.net>
	<20100724223303.GB29291@ofb.net>
Message-ID: <0FBDEF96-0B7E-4AC1-8AA9-BC6D77B2A23C@bellsouth.net>

On Jul 24, 2010, at 6:33 PM, Damien Sullivan wrote:

>>   And in Islam fundamentalists are the only ones that matter.
> 
> Wrong.

Well I'm glad you cleared that up, now we know.

> Have you looked? Googled [reform Islam]

Yes, I got 36,100 hits, and one of the first I got was "Can Islam reform from within?"; the fact that the article came from a site called "American Thinker" pretty much tells you the answer is no. Incidentally just to give you an idea of the quality of these hits, number 4 was from a moribund site that hasn't been updated since 2002 and number 5 was an interview with the author of "THE MANCHURIAN PRESIDENT- Barack Obama's Ties to Communists, Socialists and other anti-American Extremists".

I also did a search on just Islam without the "reform", I got 107,000,000 hits.

>>   If so they are being extraordinarily quiet, they don't demonstrate,
>>   they don't speak, and they don't write, or if they do they must live
>>   their lives in hiding even if they live in a western country.
> 
> Or you don't hear them, because the mainstream media doesn't report them
> much, and you in your bigotry [...]

So I'm a bigot am I, well I knew it was only a matter of time before I was accused of that. I'm a bigot for pointing out an absolute undisputed FACT about the enormous paucity of Islamic Nobel Prizes, or in general mentioning the scarcity of achievement of any sort made by that huge culture in the last several centuries; Islam has nothing to brag about scientifically or economically or artistically or politically and certainly not morally.  

People are afraid of calling Islam what it is, they are afraid of saying mutilating women and throwing acid in the face of young girls who only want an education is evil, afraid of saying stoning to death (making sure to start with only the smallest stones so it takes a long time to die) for making even the slightest criticism of their prophet is evil, afraid even to defend novelists and cartoonists from death threats. And the reason otherwise good people are afraid to make a stand against atrocities is, at least in the west, not fear of the Islamic morons themselves but fear of people like you calling them a bigot. 

Mr. Sullivan, you may not be an evil person yourself but you are an enabler of evil. And I make no apology for using such an old fashioned word as "evil", sometimes no other word will do,

  John K Clark

  



-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100725/215d0b40/attachment.html>

From jonkc at bellsouth.net  Sun Jul 25 16:52:49 2010
From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John Clark)
Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2010 12:52:49 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Religions and violence.
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinvQ_mqCwJSC43B_BwOTxyWLoQEbdgH1K6FDoP-@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTinvQ_mqCwJSC43B_BwOTxyWLoQEbdgH1K6FDoP-@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <EEAA170C-E105-42E1-AA6B-3D80437BC592@bellsouth.net>

On Jul 25, 2010, at 11:39 AM, Keith Henson wrote:
> 
> If you wanted to see Islam become a peaceful religion, figure out how
> to raise the average income per capita over a long term for those
> peoples.

That might help but I don't think it tells the entire story. None of the 19 hijackers from 911 came from the poorest of the poor, they were middle or upper middle class and many, including their leader,  
had a college education. And it's a little hard to use poverty as an excuse for barbarism from a people living directly over most of the world's oil.

  John K Clark


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100725/23d3a101/attachment.html>

From giulio at gmail.com  Sun Jul 25 17:51:48 2010
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2010 19:51:48 +0200
Subject: [ExI] TransVision 2010: Last week to register at the reduced Early
	Bird fees
Message-ID: <AANLkTim+BBw0UBJ86WbEBYtCTtiHPp1cCYBTCsBiWJGR@mail.gmail.com>

Please note that this is the last week to register for TransVision
2010 at the reduced Early Bird fees. On August 1 registration fees
will go up.

Note also that the conference venue has a limited capacity of
approximately 230 seats, so you may wish to register now to reserve
your seat.

http://transvision2010.wordpress.com/registration/


From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Mon Jul 26 04:17:04 2010
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2010 21:17:04 -0700
Subject: [ExI] India unveils prototype of a $35 computer
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=uuJKR5siSXT8S_vfYs_ENixO81TgpAVenER_W@mail.gmail.com>

India unveils prototype of $35 tablet computer

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/world/india-unveils-prototype-of-35-computer-paving-way-for-solar-powered-websurfing-in-villages-99091259.html

John


From ryanobjc at gmail.com  Sun Jul 25 03:46:41 2010
From: ryanobjc at gmail.com (Ryan Rawson)
Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2010 20:46:41 -0700
Subject: [ExI] medical marijuana
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimso0yDdeAO1cBngI1KUV4N0JLwyQOcHM8eyQwG@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTimP6SC4V0yy_O0mGnaL2Js7LZTpwBnB-7jji96N@mail.gmail.com>
	<619642.12227.qm@web81504.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<AANLkTimso0yDdeAO1cBngI1KUV4N0JLwyQOcHM8eyQwG@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikuSJjWnPSaPLSCqz5+2PGEYXrW2WPmfinLOLJC@mail.gmail.com>

"Cannabis and tobacco smoke are not equally carcinogenic"

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1277837/

For all the smoke-curious :-)

On Sat, Jul 17, 2010 at 5:29 AM, Stefano Vaj <stefano.vaj at gmail.com> wrote:
> 2010/7/12 Gregory Jones <spike66 at att.net>
>> Ja agreed, but smoking?a plant may be the cheapest way to administer any drug.
>
> Really? What about ingestion?
>
> Chewing tobacco would seem to me simpler and cheaper than smoking it.
>
> Not to mention all one has to do before getting smokable freebase cocaine.
>
> --
> Stefano Vaj
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>



From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Mon Jul 26 14:48:41 2010
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2010 07:48:41 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Religions and violence. and EP
Message-ID: <AANLkTimgTzJTsYp2hndyr_geS6RDDGW9=8Jdku_HcroS@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jul 26, 2010 at 5:00 AM,  John Clark <jonkc at bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
> On Jul 25, 2010, at 11:39 AM, Keith Henson wrote:
>>
>> If you wanted to see Islam become a peaceful religion, figure out how
>> to raise the average income per capita over a long term for those
>> peoples.
>
> That might help but I don't think it tells the entire story.

No, but it is fundamental, like plugging a hole in a dike will stop
the rising water.

> None of the 19 hijackers from 911 came from the poorest of the poor, they were middle or upper middle class and many, including their leader,  had a college education.

War and terrorism are *social* phenomena.  They emerge from a society
under stress that has been entrained by a meme that has built up over
a period of months to years.  The stress turns up the propagation
"gain" in xenophobic memes being passed from one person to another
within the group.  You need to map events like 9/11 back to the stone
age environmental situations of conflict, where it was often to the
extinction of one of the tribes.

In the stone age, it was not just the bottom social strata who went to
war when the tribe was under stress (or attack).  All the warriors
went out in a group, especially the leaders.  Anything less was
lethal.

> And it's a little hard to use poverty as an excuse for barbarism from a people living directly over most of the world's oil.

This is where Dr Cialdini's 3 buckets comes in.  It the character of
biological systems to respond to relative changes rather than
absolutes.  The gross income per person in Saudia Arabia had fallen in
the years prior to 9/11 from about $28k to $7k.  Half if this was
falling oil prices and the other half was the population doubling.

A projected 75% fall in the standard of living seems to be enough to
trip the "bleak times a-coming" detector.

I agree with you that Islam is a nasty meme set, at least in its
current state.  It's just not exceptional coming out of a stressed
society.  Nazism and communism were associated with huge numbers of
deaths in the last century, and I am not sure the memes associated
with the spasm in Rwanda even had a name.

Incidentally, your response of vilifying the memes of an attacking
tribe are themselves the expected way (from an EP viewpoint) to work
up to the mental state needed for war.  It may be more sensible than
my analytic approach.  If the planet isn't big enough for holders of
the Islamic meme set and the rest of us, I know how I want the war to
end.

Keith


From dan_ust at yahoo.com  Mon Jul 26 14:53:28 2010
From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan)
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2010 07:53:28 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] medical marijuana
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikuSJjWnPSaPLSCqz5+2PGEYXrW2WPmfinLOLJC@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTimP6SC4V0yy_O0mGnaL2Js7LZTpwBnB-7jji96N@mail.gmail.com>
	<619642.12227.qm@web81504.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<AANLkTimso0yDdeAO1cBngI1KUV4N0JLwyQOcHM8eyQwG@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikuSJjWnPSaPLSCqz5+2PGEYXrW2WPmfinLOLJC@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <580671.61195.qm@web30108.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Thanks. And smoking isn't the only way to get some benifit -- even a 
recreational one -- from marijuana.

Regards,

Dan
----- Original Message ----
From: Ryan Rawson <ryanobjc at gmail.com>
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Sat, July 24, 2010 11:46:41 PM
Subject: Re: [ExI] medical marijuana

"Cannabis and tobacco smoke are not equally carcinogenic"

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1277837/

For all the smoke-curious :-)


      


From bbenzai at yahoo.com  Mon Jul 26 16:35:28 2010
From: bbenzai at yahoo.com (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2010 09:35:28 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Religions and violence.
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1280145602.23169.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <933711.99717.qm@web114413.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

John Clark <jonkc at bellsouth.net> wrote:
> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Re: [ExI] Religions and violence.
> Message-ID: <EEAA170C-E105-42E1-AA6B-3D80437BC592 at bellsouth.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> 
> On Jul 25, 2010, at 11:39 AM, Keith Henson wrote:
> > 

> ... it's a little hard to use
> poverty as an excuse for barbarism from a people living
> directly over most of the world's oil.

I'm wondering what proportion of the population sitting on all that oil actually benefits from it?  A country may be rich while most of its population are poor (which usually speaks volumes about that country's leaders, but that's a different discussion).

Doesn't explain the educated hijackers, though.  It might be instructive to analyse just what background and what kind of education people like this have had.  e.g. early and intensive exposure to Islam, followed by a western-style education, or the reverse, or what.  You never know, a pattern might emerge.

Ben Zaiboc


      




From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Mon Jul 26 16:56:04 2010
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2010 09:56:04 -0700
Subject: [ExI] New IP thread
In-Reply-To: <20100723190307.GB17785@ofb.net>
References: <AANLkTik6HN5eiznfgTDtVnowqsbpFUs+YR6abW6g0mon@mail.gmail.com>
	<838247.6687.qm@web81603.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<AANLkTinSsPAXCEnJGUN4DTMujAH-PFfgFVp3UVwQGBwp@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100723190307.GB17785@ofb.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinS_1Rq15r49UE1wAqRHhg1cyAYun2j8nYx-GR7@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jul 23, 2010 at 12:03 PM, Damien Sullivan
<phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu> wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 21, 2010 at 03:26:19PM -0700, Rafal Smigrodzki wrote:
>
>> What IP-deniers say boils down to claiming that any act of disclosure
>> of information automatically authorizes copying, even if the
>> disclosure is explicitly accompanied by restrictions on use of the
>> information. They deny that voluntary participation in the exchange of
>> information may be accompanied by legitimate limitations on some
>> further uses of that informantion - but only when it suits them. When
>
> Wrong again.

### Right all the time.
----------------------------

>
> Of course Bob may consent to duplication restrictions on some
> information, as a condition of being told that information by Alice.
> NDAs. ?No one denies that.
>
> But if Bob breaks the NDA and tells Carol, Carol has not consented to
> any such restriction. ?IP-deniers deny that Alice has a right to impose
> restrictions on what Carol can do with what are now her thoughts.
> Copyright, backed up by a government, gives Alice that power anyway. ?As
> do privacy laws, also backed up by a government.
>
### Copyright is a form of NDA. Under a legal regime that permits
copyright (for example, for the purposes of long-term efficiency in
improving the welfare of mankind) you accede to this NDA whenever you
knowingly and actively interact (i.e. embark on a course of action
meant to interact) with a copyrighted work. The only difference
between an NDA and a copyright is that the latter is general public
knowledge - and of course this cannot be the distinction that could
make copyright invalid. If you accept the former, you must accept the
latter (unless you provide additional efficiency-related arguments) -
but, as I correctly observed, IP-deniers start out with a feeling of
entitlement, and make up justifications on the fly. I know, I used to
be one.

You keep trying to muddy the waters by claiming that copyright is
given by the government, as if this was per se a reasonable argument
against it. Firstly, government tends to be lousy at everything it
does but this is not a general argument against the existence of
services provided by it (you don't reject the idea of a the autobahn
simply because Nazis built a few). Secondly, copyright does not need
to be provided by governments, although because of the existence of
governments the alternatives (private copyright providers) are
suppressed. You are taking a contingent association for a necessary
attribute.

If you can't point towards increased efficiency in furthering human
welfare afforded by Carol's "right" to use illegitimately obtained
information, you are just blowing hot air. Don't tell me about your
feelings about "rights", tell me how the world will be improved by
your proposal to have it without IP.

Rafal



From bbenzai at yahoo.com  Mon Jul 26 17:38:23 2010
From: bbenzai at yahoo.com (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2010 10:38:23 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Religions and violence
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1280145602.23169.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <367894.11956.qm@web114408.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

Another factor that has occurred to me is sex.

Am I being naive in thinking that the most violent religions are also the most sexually repressive?  Is it true?  Is it a coincidence?

Googling on this brings up a lot of stuff, but most of it seems to be over-the-top Islam-bashing, weak apologetics or unhelpful 'advice' to confused teenagers.  I've not found any sensible arguments on the topic.  

I imagine EP has something to say on this, but I'm not qualified to do anything more than speculate.

Ben Zaiboc


      




From michaelfd1976 at gmail.com  Mon Jul 26 17:14:21 2010
From: michaelfd1976 at gmail.com (Michael D)
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2010 13:14:21 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Breaking Protocol: A Critique of The Extropian E-mail List
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikGRm_B-wExzpdyT7htnc7GeJZ773U2D4F8pSW5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <201007211513.o6LFDcxv019859@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<20100721194356.GC23426@ofb.net>
	<4135667C-A61C-44E5-8477-04E6BA1FDC3A@bellsouth.net>
	<AANLkTimiTa1WFDUfRmwx3PWJKbSpPkLU_RxQeNNdMDHz@mail.gmail.com>
	<B502B0B7-EBC6-472C-B377-7D40732EF526@bellsouth.net>
	<AANLkTikFV+LFy9mwFB_XLHgHgCK0sH4L-hvPqyekzNY7@mail.gmail.com>
	<COL112-W34F23FD5814F2E99528C349DA40@phx.gbl>
	<COL112-W5619D727A1AE19707EE66F9DA40@phx.gbl>
	<AANLkTikGRm_B-wExzpdyT7htnc7GeJZ773U2D4F8pSW5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikYCPJTp84hoEptOiOGyfq==E70mu0p4VEV3qA_@mail.gmail.com>

"Always remember that very intelligent people can also hold views that
are completely wrong."

Also remember that two people can have completely opposing yet logically
consistent views but actually hold the same values, the difference being in
the information set they have experienced.

- Michael F Dickey
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100726/cf1b0174/attachment.html>

From jonkc at bellsouth.net  Mon Jul 26 20:36:42 2010
From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John Clark)
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2010 16:36:42 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Religions and violence
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikFV+LFy9mwFB_XLHgHgCK0sH4L-hvPqyekzNY7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <201007211513.o6LFDcxv019859@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<20100721194356.GC23426@ofb.net>
	<4135667C-A61C-44E5-8477-04E6BA1FDC3A@bellsouth.net>
	<AANLkTimiTa1WFDUfRmwx3PWJKbSpPkLU_RxQeNNdMDHz@mail.gmail.com>
	<B502B0B7-EBC6-472C-B377-7D40732EF526@bellsouth.net>
	<AANLkTikFV+LFy9mwFB_XLHgHgCK0sH4L-hvPqyekzNY7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <EF03FE45-EEC3-418C-ABF4-5C3C5BA99840@bellsouth.net>

On Jul 23, 2010, at 6:38 PM, Jeff Davis wrote:
> 
> The Jews are successful because their historical coincidences
> pushed them in the direction of mercantilism and finance capitalism.[...]
> Islam has followed a course more in line with religious conservatism.
> That this has held Muslims "back"

I could not agree with you more, although the same ideas could be expressed more concisely as "Islamic culture sucks".

> But -- and you knew this was coming -- where is it written that
> smartness, or wealth, or Nobel Prizes is the metric by which to judge
> one group "better" than another?

Well, I'll write it right here if you like, I'll write that smartness and wealth and Nobel Prizes is a pretty God damn good metric for judging one group BETTER than another, especially when it includes much more personal freedom, and I don't even need weasel quotation marks.

And I was wondering if your aversion in labeling one group better than another extend to all groups, would you refuse to stand up and say most groups are superior to the Nazi group?

> rebranding the Nobel prize as the Capitalist Megadeath prize, then that 165 to 6 comparison doesn't quite feel as impressive as before.

Yes but who would be so anti-intellectual as to call the Nobel prize the Megadeath prize? Well I can think of one group and it starts with the letter "I".

> the West, facilitated by finance capitalism, took up the imperialist
> mantle, and starting in the mid 1300's, began conquering the world.
> They tried to conquer the Muslim lands as well, but with only mixed
> and temporary success, and with the sort of defensive pushback -- from
> the Muslims this time -- one would naturally expect.

Who cares, that was 700 years ago!

> It's no crime to want to live the way you and yours have lived since
> before you can remember.

But it is a crime to force others to live as if it were the twelfth century. I just don't get it, why do some otherwise freethinking people in the west feel they are obligated to make excuses for intellectual and moral midgets? These same people don't hesitate to point out the slightest flaw in their own culture, but they pretend they don't see the elephant in the living room, the hideous evil in Islam.   
>  
> The Western world is in full-throated Muslim-hating mode

No that is not true, but I wish it was. Instead the western world is in full-throated suicidal self hatred mode with a vast supply of half baked excuses for the atrocities of Islam.

> Demonization is poor preparation for an accurate assessment of reality.

Not if you're assessing a demon. 

> I know it is a weakness of human nature to become
> emotionally invested in inconsequential tribal spats,
> but people who want to be transhumanists need to be
> able to get past that

If Islam wins this tribal spat NOBODY is going to become transhuman.

 John K Clark


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100726/9cf65643/attachment.html>

From ryanobjc at gmail.com  Tue Jul 27 00:27:38 2010
From: ryanobjc at gmail.com (Ryan Rawson)
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2010 17:27:38 -0700
Subject: [ExI] New IP thread
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinS_1Rq15r49UE1wAqRHhg1cyAYun2j8nYx-GR7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTik6HN5eiznfgTDtVnowqsbpFUs+YR6abW6g0mon@mail.gmail.com>
	<838247.6687.qm@web81603.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<AANLkTinSsPAXCEnJGUN4DTMujAH-PFfgFVp3UVwQGBwp@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100723190307.GB17785@ofb.net>
	<AANLkTinS_1Rq15r49UE1wAqRHhg1cyAYun2j8nYx-GR7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTik9acB235BWwzfqfqM=gtiwkKXhdYhYtkguo-Gn@mail.gmail.com>

Rafal, you might want to consider if your rhetoric is potentially
offending people who might have been possibly sympathetic to your
viewpoint.

In the end, not everyone believes that "efficiency" is the best
option, and that there are other possible middle and end states that
are important to consider. So people who disagree with you aren't just
"IP-deniers" (that sounds like an emotional rhetorical device to me)
or stupid as you are constantly implying.



On Mon, Jul 26, 2010 at 9:56 AM, Rafal Smigrodzki
<rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Jul 23, 2010 at 12:03 PM, Damien Sullivan
> <phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu> wrote:
>> On Wed, Jul 21, 2010 at 03:26:19PM -0700, Rafal Smigrodzki wrote:
>>
>>> What IP-deniers say boils down to claiming that any act of disclosure
>>> of information automatically authorizes copying, even if the
>>> disclosure is explicitly accompanied by restrictions on use of the
>>> information. They deny that voluntary participation in the exchange of
>>> information may be accompanied by legitimate limitations on some
>>> further uses of that informantion - but only when it suits them. When
>>
>> Wrong again.
>
> ### Right all the time.
> ----------------------------
>
>>
>> Of course Bob may consent to duplication restrictions on some
>> information, as a condition of being told that information by Alice.
>> NDAs. ?No one denies that.
>>
>> But if Bob breaks the NDA and tells Carol, Carol has not consented to
>> any such restriction. ?IP-deniers deny that Alice has a right to impose
>> restrictions on what Carol can do with what are now her thoughts.
>> Copyright, backed up by a government, gives Alice that power anyway. ?As
>> do privacy laws, also backed up by a government.
>>
> ### Copyright is a form of NDA. Under a legal regime that permits
> copyright (for example, for the purposes of long-term efficiency in
> improving the welfare of mankind) you accede to this NDA whenever you
> knowingly and actively interact (i.e. embark on a course of action
> meant to interact) with a copyrighted work. The only difference
> between an NDA and a copyright is that the latter is general public
> knowledge - and of course this cannot be the distinction that could
> make copyright invalid. If you accept the former, you must accept the
> latter (unless you provide additional efficiency-related arguments) -
> but, as I correctly observed, IP-deniers start out with a feeling of
> entitlement, and make up justifications on the fly. I know, I used to
> be one.
>
> You keep trying to muddy the waters by claiming that copyright is
> given by the government, as if this was per se a reasonable argument
> against it. Firstly, government tends to be lousy at everything it
> does but this is not a general argument against the existence of
> services provided by it (you don't reject the idea of a the autobahn
> simply because Nazis built a few). Secondly, copyright does not need
> to be provided by governments, although because of the existence of
> governments the alternatives (private copyright providers) are
> suppressed. You are taking a contingent association for a necessary
> attribute.
>
> If you can't point towards increased efficiency in furthering human
> welfare afforded by Carol's "right" to use illegitimately obtained
> information, you are just blowing hot air. Don't tell me about your
> feelings about "rights", tell me how the world will be improved by
> your proposal to have it without IP.
>
> Rafal
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>



From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Tue Jul 27 05:39:44 2010
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2010 01:39:44 -0400
Subject: [ExI] New IP thread
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTik9acB235BWwzfqfqM=gtiwkKXhdYhYtkguo-Gn@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTik6HN5eiznfgTDtVnowqsbpFUs+YR6abW6g0mon@mail.gmail.com>
	<838247.6687.qm@web81603.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<AANLkTinSsPAXCEnJGUN4DTMujAH-PFfgFVp3UVwQGBwp@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100723190307.GB17785@ofb.net>
	<AANLkTinS_1Rq15r49UE1wAqRHhg1cyAYun2j8nYx-GR7@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTik9acB235BWwzfqfqM=gtiwkKXhdYhYtkguo-Gn@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=jhNuBris2xLwncCeGuPF5GdYHfYNJr-_phh=Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jul 26, 2010 at 8:27 PM, Ryan Rawson <ryanobjc at gmail.com> wrote:
> Rafal, you might want to consider if your rhetoric is potentially
> offending people who might have been possibly sympathetic to your
> viewpoint.
>
> In the end, not everyone believes that "efficiency" is the best
> option, and that there are other possible middle and end states that
> are important to consider. So people who disagree with you aren't just
> "IP-deniers" (that sounds like an emotional rhetorical device to me)
> or stupid as you are constantly implying.

### No, definitely not stupid - rather, starting out with some
emotionally held position and coming up with rationalizations for it,
some of which can be quite clever but are eventually corrupted by the
faulty premises. Most IP-not-wanters can think their way through the
issues but they don't want to. You will get much more mileage with me
if you come up with arguments, instead of accusing me of being
offensive.

And by the way, if you are saying that efficient outcomes are inferior
to "other possible middle and end states", you either did not read the
definition of efficiency, or else you truly wantonly want to make some
people potentially much worse off than possible. Do you really want
it?

Rafal


From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Tue Jul 27 13:40:48 2010
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2010 15:40:48 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Belief in maths (was mind body dualism)
In-Reply-To: <649785.69645.qm@web114406.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.1.1279454403.27742.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<649785.69645.qm@web114406.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimoko6d1GeAknug8Ec99P4cD9MC_uqOt_jTMpof@mail.gmail.com>

On 18 July 2010 16:24, Ben Zaiboc <bbenzai at yahoo.com> wrote:
> I think this is pandering to the myth that atheism is just another religion. Atheists /don't/ 'believe there are no gods'. They just don't believe there are any gods. ?This is an essential distinction, and depressingly, it seems that it needs to be repeated ad nauseam. ?The central point is belief vs. non-belief, rather than belief x vs. belief y.

What would be especially wrong in another religion, especially for
those who already *are* religious?

Skepticism is OK, but I do not see why people should not exist as well
who think that the "God" of monotheistic religions is an unacceptable
concept, simply in terms of worldviews.

--
Stefano Vaj



From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Tue Jul 27 14:04:56 2010
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2010 07:04:56 -0700
Subject: [ExI] "Mr. Deity"
Message-ID: <AANLkTiksCF5jHn=WrnN0XHNAgCZZQ7Rs2EErZkv=NNa3@mail.gmail.com>

This webshow is a comedy about God trying to manage his creations...
Michael Shermer gave it a glowing recommendation, and the fellow
behind it was raised Mormon.

http://www.mrdeity.com/

John


From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Tue Jul 27 14:03:02 2010
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2010 07:03:02 -0700
Subject: [ExI] "Mr. Diety" webshow
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=GGTujr6f-MWNyXivVmqahGPzM-=7vG4shzE3p@mail.gmail.com>

This webshow is a comedy about God trying to manage his creations...
Michael Shermer gave it a glowing recommendation, and the fellow
behind it was raised Mormon.

http://www.mrdeity.com/

John


From giulio at gmail.com  Tue Jul 27 15:51:53 2010
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2010 17:51:53 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Belief in maths (was mind body dualism)
In-Reply-To: <348701.85627.qm@web114406.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.1030.1278386441.10820.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<348701.85627.qm@web114406.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=MeTgptC0JH8-jRmeOUSy1fMMwPhiEsAZ2VG1H@mail.gmail.com>

Maths is the physics of bottlecaps. In my experience 2+2=4 is often
valid within the limits of observational error, but I am open to the
possibility of experimental refutation.


From cetico.iconoclasta at gmail.com  Tue Jul 27 19:33:21 2010
From: cetico.iconoclasta at gmail.com (Henrique Moraes Machado (CI))
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2010 16:33:21 -0300
Subject: [ExI] The Life Cycle of Software Objects - Ted Chiang's book review
	by IO9
Message-ID: <04b101cb2dc2$95177940$fd00a8c0@cpdhemm>

This review makes me want to read the book:

http://io9.com/5597704/ted-chiang-redefines-how-everybody-will-write-about-artificial-intelligence

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100727/828feee3/attachment.html>

From dan_ust at yahoo.com  Tue Jul 27 20:56:48 2010
From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan)
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2010 13:56:48 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] The Life Cycle of Software Objects - Ted Chiang's book
	review by IO9
In-Reply-To: <04b101cb2dc2$95177940$fd00a8c0@cpdhemm>
References: <04b101cb2dc2$95177940$fd00a8c0@cpdhemm>
Message-ID: <958370.47637.qm@web30103.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Yes... Have you read anything by him?

Regards,

Dan



________________________________
From: Henrique Moraes Machado (CI) <cetico.iconoclasta at gmail.com>
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Tue, July 27, 2010 3:33:21 PM
Subject: [ExI] The Life Cycle of Software Objects - Ted Chiang's book review by 
IO9


This review makes me want to read the book:
?
http://io9.com/5597704/ted-chiang-redefines-how-everybody-will-write-about-artificial-intelligence


      
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100727/83572714/attachment.html>

From max at maxmore.com  Tue Jul 27 20:58:58 2010
From: max at maxmore.com (max at maxmore.com)
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2010 15:58:58 -0500
Subject: [ExI] The Life Cycle of Software Objects - Ted Chiang's
	book	review by IO9
In-Reply-To: <04b101cb2dc2$95177940$fd00a8c0@cpdhemm>
References: <04b101cb2dc2$95177940$fd00a8c0@cpdhemm>
Message-ID: <20100727155858.dg0tpsqmgisggc48@webmail.maxmore.com>

Chiang's story "Understand" was one of the very best stories I've read  
in a long time. It's essential reading for anyone interested in  
intellectual augmentation to more than human levels.

Max

Quoting "Henrique Moraes Machado \(CI\)" <cetico.iconoclasta at gmail.com>:

> This review makes me want to read the book:
>
> http://io9.com/5597704/ted-chiang-redefines-how-everybody-will-write-about-artificial-intelligence
>
>





From thespike at satx.rr.com  Tue Jul 27 21:57:32 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2010 16:57:32 -0500
Subject: [ExI] The Life Cycle of Software Objects - Ted Chiang's book
 review by IO9
In-Reply-To: <958370.47637.qm@web30103.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <04b101cb2dc2$95177940$fd00a8c0@cpdhemm>
	<958370.47637.qm@web30103.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4C4F564C.5060509@satx.rr.com>

On 7/27/2010 3:56 PM, Dan wrote:
> Have you read anything by him?

Ted Chiang's brilliant.

(This particular idea sounds like a version of Ben Goertzel's Novamente 
AGI.)

Damien Broderick


From max at maxmore.com  Wed Jul 28 05:01:32 2010
From: max at maxmore.com (Max More)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 00:01:32 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Philosophers views on lots of issues
Message-ID: <201007280501.o6S51e0m002570@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

Can't remember where I found this, but I think it was from someone on 
Facebook. If you're interested in philosophy, this survey is really, 
really interesting and fun to explore. Note that you can select both 
the group whose responses you want to see, and the level of detail of 
the responses. Unless you're a professional philosopher, you'll find 
yourself googling terms. Have fun.

http://philpapers.org/surveys/results.pl


-------------------------------------
Max More, Ph.D.
Strategic Philosopher
Co-editor, The Transhumanist Reader
The Proactionary Project
Extropy Institute Founder
www.maxmore.com
max at maxmore.com
------------------------------------- 



From max at maxmore.com  Wed Jul 28 05:03:51 2010
From: max at maxmore.com (Max More)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 00:03:51 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Mosque at Ground Zero -- or not?
Message-ID: <201007280503.o6S53vgB019381@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

Very relevant to the very recent discussion of Muslims wanting to 
build a mosque at Ground Zero in NY. Is that even true, as J.C. (John 
Clark, not Jesus Christ) assumes? I haven't verified the information 
in the following, but it says that's definitely *not* true.

http://knappster.blogspot.com/2010/07/yes-this-is-litmus-test.html

That leaves the moral question open, but it's good to get the facts straight.

Max



From jonkc at bellsouth.net  Wed Jul 28 06:44:41 2010
From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John Clark)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 02:44:41 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Mosque at Ground Zero -- or not?
In-Reply-To: <201007280503.o6S53vgB019381@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <201007280503.o6S53vgB019381@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <25FD162E-0CF5-4658-832F-A281DB0BEA37@bellsouth.net>

On Jul 28, 2010, at 1:03 AM, Max More wrote:

> Very relevant to the very recent discussion of Muslims wanting to build a mosque at Ground Zero in NY. Is that even true, as J.C. (John Clark, not Jesus Christ) assumes? I haven't verified the information in the following, but it says that's definitely *not* true.
> 
> http://knappster.blogspot.com/2010/07/yes-this-is-litmus-test.html
> 
Quotations from that site:

> The opponents of Cordoba House oppose private property rights. 


No more than any other zoning law, and anyway I never said the government should stop it, I said it displays incredibly boorish behavior for the Muslims to even think of building it. And if the government can tax me they can sure as hell tax that monstrosity! 

It's not inconsistent for a libertarian to say somebody is a total slime-ball for doing something and also think the government should not use force to prevent it.

> Cordoba House is not a "mosque." It's an "Islamic cultural center,"


And the Space Shuttle didn't explode, there was an energetic disassembly.  

> The construction site for Cordoba House is not at "Ground Zero." It's two blocks away

Oh that is very different! A Nazi cultural center built in the middle of Auschwitz would be in bad taste, but one built 500 feet away would be just fine.

> The opponents of Cordoba House generally claim to have knowledge of Islam beyond that of us non-Muslims who don't obsess over who's worshiping where.

I don't claim to have more knowledge of Islam than other people, but apparently I do have less fear of being called a bigot (as I was on this list) from fools who ignore an obvious evil.

  John K Clark



-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100728/b6bb6aa6/attachment.html>

From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Wed Jul 28 09:27:09 2010
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 11:27:09 +0200
Subject: [ExI] La Spirale interview online
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTim8qPvtqS5S_88K2ArriSChz72WYQwXmCSHJKgS@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTik6HN5eiznfgTDtVnowqsbpFUs+YR6abW6g0mon@mail.gmail.com>
	<838247.6687.qm@web81603.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<AANLkTinSsPAXCEnJGUN4DTMujAH-PFfgFVp3UVwQGBwp@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100723190307.GB17785@ofb.net>
	<20100723152950.vl4boxjotck4ksoo@webmail.maxmore.com>
	<AANLkTim8qPvtqS5S_88K2ArriSChz72WYQwXmCSHJKgS@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikY9HT9AJW2zh538FNzF9VAmmpr-AvnNYmLPAgk@mail.gmail.com>

2010/7/23 Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com>:
> Great interview Max!

Indeed.

-- 
Stefano Vaj


From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Wed Jul 28 09:40:38 2010
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 11:40:38 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Hypatia- a secular saint
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinP0_Y7fG=QSkzczrPOq49kP0L0uQASLygiax5-@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTinP0_Y7fG=QSkzczrPOq49kP0L0uQASLygiax5-@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikBeMwOMW=Z5rJHBEBgV0gwDsKgsn9OXXAnaTf4@mail.gmail.com>

On 24 July 2010 00:19, John Grigg <possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com> wrote:
> I came across a FB link about Hypatia and it caused me to recall Carl
> Sagan's comments about her in Cosmos. ?I would say she is a "secular
> saint" and in some ways was born many centuries too early (though she
> was definitely needed in her own time).

I have always found the usage of the world "secular" in English quite
peculiar... (in Italian it means mainly "age-old" and only unusually
"lay"),.

In fact, I think it would be more appropriate to define her as a pagan.?

Having said that, for the little we know of her, she is really a
symbol and a heroin.

-- 
Stefano Vaj



From giulio at gmail.com  Wed Jul 28 09:49:53 2010
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 11:49:53 +0200
Subject: [ExI] The Life Cycle of Software Objects - Ted Chiang's book
	review by IO9
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimn2cntv6uzmX-+wVugEz=sMBM=M8pLEyeuzTZ0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <04b101cb2dc2$95177940$fd00a8c0@cpdhemm>
	<958370.47637.qm@web30103.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<4C4F564C.5060509@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTimn2cntv6uzmX-+wVugEz=sMBM=M8pLEyeuzTZ0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=WNGCuT1G6p+XVSVg6z-UspeGfL_e==XWNYbKh@mail.gmail.com>

This novel looks great, thanks for posting. I look forward to reading it.

My own ideas about future AIs are similar, they will be emotional and messy
and mainly shaped by emotional interactions like us.

Re incompressibility of experience: I quite agree, but in subjective time
which does not necessarily equal human subjective time - an emotional AI
implemented on a fast computational substrate can be trained by other fast
AIs, or have parallel interactions with hundreds of humans at the same time.

--
Giulio Prisco
giulio at gmail.com
(39)3387219799

On Jul 27, 2010 11:59 PM, "Damien Broderick" <thespike at satx.rr.com> wrote:

On 7/27/2010 3:56 PM, Dan wrote: > > Have you read anything by him?
Ted Chiang's brilliant.

(This particular idea sounds like a version of Ben Goertzel's Novamente
AGI.)

Damien Broderick
_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list

extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org

http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100728/80720a15/attachment.html>

From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Wed Jul 28 10:17:09 2010
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 03:17:09 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The Life Cycle of Software Objects - Ted Chiang's book
	review by IO9
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=WNGCuT1G6p+XVSVg6z-UspeGfL_e==XWNYbKh@mail.gmail.com>
References: <04b101cb2dc2$95177940$fd00a8c0@cpdhemm>
	<958370.47637.qm@web30103.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<4C4F564C.5060509@satx.rr.com>
	<AANLkTimn2cntv6uzmX-+wVugEz=sMBM=M8pLEyeuzTZ0@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTi=WNGCuT1G6p+XVSVg6z-UspeGfL_e==XWNYbKh@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTik5fc+ox=Rjvo8afxU0m_yy4kFN2ZFRn0eyC84m@mail.gmail.com>

Max More wrote:
Chiang's story "Understand" was one of the very best stories I've read
in a long time. It's essential reading for anyone interested in
intellectual augmentation to more than human levels.
>>>

This story is INCREDIBLY good and I've read it several times (I
normally only read things once)!  It tells the tale of two men who
become aware of each other as their intellects are raised to godlike
levels due to a very experimental medical treatment.  And as they say
in Highlander, "there can only be one!"

This is his first anthology and it is an absolute must buy!

http://www.amazon.com/Stories-Your-Life-Others-Chiang/dp/0765304198

John  : )



On 7/28/10, Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:
> This novel looks great, thanks for posting. I look forward to reading it.
>
> My own ideas about future AIs are similar, they will be emotional and messy
> and mainly shaped by emotional interactions like us.
>
> Re incompressibility of experience: I quite agree, but in subjective time
> which does not necessarily equal human subjective time - an emotional AI
> implemented on a fast computational substrate can be trained by other fast
> AIs, or have parallel interactions with hundreds of humans at the same time.
>
> --
> Giulio Prisco
> giulio at gmail.com
> (39)3387219799
>
> On Jul 27, 2010 11:59 PM, "Damien Broderick" <thespike at satx.rr.com> wrote:
>
> On 7/27/2010 3:56 PM, Dan wrote: > > Have you read anything by him?
> Ted Chiang's brilliant.
>
> (This particular idea sounds like a version of Ben Goertzel's Novamente
> AGI.)
>
> Damien Broderick
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
>
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>


From dgreer_68 at hotmail.com  Wed Jul 28 11:35:30 2010
From: dgreer_68 at hotmail.com (darren shawn greer)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 07:35:30 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Globe and Mail article: "Scientists taking Vitamin D in
	droves"
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikBeMwOMW=Z5rJHBEBgV0gwDsKgsn9OXXAnaTf4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTinP0_Y7fG=QSkzczrPOq49kP0L0uQASLygiax5-@mail.gmail.com>,
	<AANLkTikBeMwOMW=Z5rJHBEBgV0gwDsKgsn9OXXAnaTf4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <COL112-W25A3558293616DA16CC7549DA80@phx.gbl>


Article on the trend of scientists studying the effects of Vitamin D  to take it themselves. 
 
 
 
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/health/scientists-taking-vitamin-d-in-droves/article1649132/
 
 
 
My favorite comment associated with the article:
 

 
Comment: "Apparently Vitamin D can help cure mental diseases like liberalism..."
 
 
 
Response: "There's a cure for the conservative condition as well: education."

 
 
Darren





----------------------------------------
> Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 11:40:38 +0200
> From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com
> To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> Subject: Re: [ExI] Hypatia- a secular saint
>
> On 24 July 2010 00:19, John Grigg wrote:
>> I came across a FB link about Hypatia and it caused me to recall Carl
>> Sagan's comments about her in Cosmos. I would say she is a "secular
>> saint" and in some ways was born many centuries too early (though she
>> was definitely needed in her own time).
>
> I have always found the usage of the world "secular" in English quite
> peculiar... (in Italian it means mainly "age-old" and only unusually
> "lay"),.
>
> In fact, I think it would be more appropriate to define her as a pagan.?
>
> Having said that, for the little we know of her, she is really a
> symbol and a heroin.
>
> --
> Stefano Vaj
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat 		 	   		  


From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Wed Jul 28 11:59:32 2010
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 13:59:32 +0200
Subject: [ExI] NYT: The Technocracy Boom
In-Reply-To: <20100721174253.wkcaeng3kw84s08w@webmail.maxmore.com>
References: <AANLkTimCN9bWViyldqI0xz51EwQqirS4EylYDJcY3GHH@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100721174253.wkcaeng3kw84s08w@webmail.maxmore.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimCVMR5_pFZrT122Vt8MoPL7rXNAN9FrqTvkUKx@mail.gmail.com>

On 22 July 2010 00:42,  <max at maxmore.com> wrote:
> Since I lack the skills to do much about those priorities (other than to
> communicate their urgency to others)

Ultimately, "evangelism" is *more* important than implementation, and
your personal role is IMHO more crucial than that of people, of
whatever worldview, who may happen to find themselves at the helm of a
laboratory or a space programme.

First, because orienting and changing history is a higher magic than
orienting and changing matter and processes.

Secondly, because the struggle for a posthuman change is a goal per
se, reflecting a value system I am more comfortable with, irrespective
of the ifs, whens and hows of the results that can be actually
achieved (an area where surprises, on both the minus and the plus
sides are certainly to be expected anyway).

The "quest for greatness" is already a form of greatness itself.

-- 
Stefano Vaj


From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Wed Jul 28 12:29:28 2010
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 14:29:28 +0200
Subject: [ExI] medical marijuana
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikuSJjWnPSaPLSCqz5+2PGEYXrW2WPmfinLOLJC@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTimP6SC4V0yy_O0mGnaL2Js7LZTpwBnB-7jji96N@mail.gmail.com>
	<619642.12227.qm@web81504.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<AANLkTimso0yDdeAO1cBngI1KUV4N0JLwyQOcHM8eyQwG@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikuSJjWnPSaPLSCqz5+2PGEYXrW2WPmfinLOLJC@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTin-uMOmxq0yQ_viw9n3cOWv2HLnFbu_r2BKeTnV@mail.gmail.com>

On 25 July 2010 05:46, Ryan Rawson <ryanobjc at gmail.com> wrote:
> "Cannabis and tobacco smoke are not equally carcinogenic"
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1277837/

Good to know. The problem is that:
a) most people smoke cannabis *and* tobacco, not just in the sense
that they may have tobacco cigarettes and cannabis cigarettes, but
that they routinely mix dry tobacco, since it burns better, with their
hashish or marijuana;
b) inhaling "smoke", as in the product of combustion, is hardly ideal
in health terms irrespective of what is burnt.

OTOH, I have just learned that when you "smoke" crack or freebase
cocaines what you actually inhale is not smoke at all, but simply
vapours thereof.

-- 
Stefano Vaj


From max at maxmore.com  Wed Jul 28 16:29:56 2010
From: max at maxmore.com (Max More)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 11:29:56 -0500
Subject: [ExI] La Spirale interview in English
Message-ID: <201007281630.o6SGU5uk003604@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

The extensive interview with me by La Spirale 
<http://www.laspirale.org/texte.php?id=305> is now available in 
English: http://www.maxmore.com/laspirale2010.htm

I've also updated my website to include links to other items, such as 
videos of my talk, "Singularity Skepticism: Exposing Exponential 
Errors", my JET paper The Overhuman in the Transhuman", and my 
talk/paper "Why Catholics Should Support the Transhumanist Goal of 
Extended Life".

Max



-------------------------------------
Max More, Ph.D.
Strategic Philosopher
Co-editor, The Transhumanist Reader
The Proactionary Project
Extropy Institute Founder
www.maxmore.com
max at maxmore.com
------------------------------------- 



From wingcat at pacbell.net  Wed Jul 28 16:33:37 2010
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 09:33:37 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Hypatia- a secular saint
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikBeMwOMW=Z5rJHBEBgV0gwDsKgsn9OXXAnaTf4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <702050.46262.qm@web81607.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

--- On Wed, 7/28/10, Stefano Vaj <stefano.vaj at gmail.com> wrote:
> Having said that, for the little we know of her, she is
> really a
> symbol and a heroin.

Just don't get addicted to her.  ;)


From thespike at satx.rr.com  Wed Jul 28 17:38:27 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 12:38:27 -0500
Subject: [ExI] The Life Cycle of Software Objects - Ted Chiang's	book
 review by IO9
In-Reply-To: <20100727155858.dg0tpsqmgisggc48@webmail.maxmore.com>
References: <04b101cb2dc2$95177940$fd00a8c0@cpdhemm>
	<20100727155858.dg0tpsqmgisggc48@webmail.maxmore.com>
Message-ID: <4C506B13.1050607@satx.rr.com>

On 7/27/2010 3:58 PM, max at maxmore.com wrote:

> Chiang's story "Understand" was one of the very best stories I've read
> in a long time. It's essential reading for anyone interested in
> intellectual augmentation to more than human levels.

I liked it a lot, but curiously enough Eliezer Yudkowsky was scornfully 
dismissive. Not only did he see the whole plot trajectory in advance (he 
claimed) but it was based on a coarse misunderstanding of genius and 
superintelligence (something he knew from the inside, one understood). I 
paraphrase. Perhaps he was right, but I don't recall any explication of 
this dazzling implied critique. I hate it when that happens.

Damien Broderick


From pharos at gmail.com  Wed Jul 28 19:43:32 2010
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 20:43:32 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Don't confuse me with the facts!
Message-ID: <AANLkTimEA2rxSHvGW0XXt+qfxP7jqp=sdJFWahtg5ZxY@mail.gmail.com>

Recently, a few political scientists have begun to discover a human
tendency deeply discouraging to anyone with faith in the power of
information. It?s this: Facts don?t necessarily have the power to
change our minds. In fact, quite the opposite.

Full article here:
<http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2010/07/11/how_facts_backfire/?page=full>

Quotes:
In a series of studies in 2005 and 2006, researchers at the University
of Michigan found that when misinformed people, particularly political
partisans, were exposed to corrected facts in news stories, they
rarely changed their minds. In fact, they often became even more
strongly set in their beliefs. Facts, they found, were not curing
misinformation. Like an underpowered antibiotic, facts could actually
make misinformation even stronger.

?The general idea is that it?s absolutely threatening to admit you?re
wrong,? says political scientist Brendan Nyhan, the lead researcher on
the Michigan study. The phenomenon ? known as ?backfire? ? is ?a
natural defense mechanism to avoid that cognitive dissonance.?

And if you harbor the notion ? popular on both sides of the aisle ?
that the solution is more education and a higher level of political
sophistication in voters overall, well, that?s a start, but not the
solution. A 2006 study by Charles Taber and Milton Lodge at Stony
Brook University showed that politically sophisticated thinkers were
even less open to new information than less sophisticated types. These
people may be factually right about 90 percent of things, but their
confidence makes it nearly impossible to correct the 10 percent on
which they?re totally wrong.
------------


BillK



From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Wed Jul 28 22:48:17 2010
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 15:48:17 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Don't confuse me with the facts!
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimEA2rxSHvGW0XXt+qfxP7jqp=sdJFWahtg5ZxY@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTimEA2rxSHvGW0XXt+qfxP7jqp=sdJFWahtg5ZxY@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTim6cau3KzF9FVtyj8bkY7qPtqfvHo7=aLj-G1Dh@mail.gmail.com>

BillK wrote:
Recently, a few political scientists have begun to discover a human
tendency deeply discouraging to anyone with faith in the power of
information. It?s this: Facts don?t necessarily have the power to
change our minds. In fact, quite the opposite.
>>>

Full article here:
<http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2010/07/11/how_facts_backfire/?page=full>

And so in other words the war in Afghanistan will continue on and on,
despite the Wikileaks incident...

Oh, and there was that one trillion dollars worth of mineral wealth,
that I'm sure U.S. companies would like to get their hands on...

John


On 7/28/10, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:
> Recently, a few political scientists have begun to discover a human
> tendency deeply discouraging to anyone with faith in the power of
> information. It?s this: Facts don?t necessarily have the power to
> change our minds. In fact, quite the opposite.
>
> Full article here:
> <http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2010/07/11/how_facts_backfire/?page=full>
>
> Quotes:
> In a series of studies in 2005 and 2006, researchers at the University
> of Michigan found that when misinformed people, particularly political
> partisans, were exposed to corrected facts in news stories, they
> rarely changed their minds. In fact, they often became even more
> strongly set in their beliefs. Facts, they found, were not curing
> misinformation. Like an underpowered antibiotic, facts could actually
> make misinformation even stronger.
>
> ?The general idea is that it?s absolutely threatening to admit you?re
> wrong,? says political scientist Brendan Nyhan, the lead researcher on
> the Michigan study. The phenomenon ? known as ?backfire? ? is ?a
> natural defense mechanism to avoid that cognitive dissonance.?
>
> And if you harbor the notion ? popular on both sides of the aisle ?
> that the solution is more education and a higher level of political
> sophistication in voters overall, well, that?s a start, but not the
> solution. A 2006 study by Charles Taber and Milton Lodge at Stony
> Brook University showed that politically sophisticated thinkers were
> even less open to new information than less sophisticated types. These
> people may be factually right about 90 percent of things, but their
> confidence makes it nearly impossible to correct the 10 percent on
> which they?re totally wrong.
> ------------
>
>
> BillK
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>



From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Wed Jul 28 23:55:19 2010
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 16:55:19 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Transhumanist music
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=Yyo8rMo0QSKQJVSuaC=P-L_ORr3Rr9e+07FnV@mail.gmail.com>

I went looking for transhumanist themed music but did not find very
much, even after much googling.

*Must see!*  "The Nano Song!"  Children's programming meets The
Foresight Institute! LOL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFoC-uxRqCg&feature=related

Remember E. Shaun Russell?  : )

http://www.skinnydevil.com/trans-music.html

"I am the very model of a Singularitarian..."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hKG5l_TDU8

A cool & informative music video...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9IHUCl_wQg

"Our Cryonic World" by Charlie Kam...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UjTu8AbioiA

"I am the very model of a psycho-pharmacologist!"  This is outstanding...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElFL4CrDMIY&feature=related

Not Extropic, but hey, it's Kung Fu fighting set skillfully to music!

http://www.oneinchpunch.net/2010/07/22/kung-fu-music-video-mixed-by-the-chemical-brothers/

John  : )


From thespike at satx.rr.com  Thu Jul 29 01:36:26 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 20:36:26 -0500
Subject: [ExI] a new term for cryonics?
Message-ID: <4C50DB1A.4040302@satx.rr.com>

Perhaps this term has been suggested previously; I like it on a PR 
outreach/journalism level--it's at once true and much more 
non-icky/non-threatening than, say, "cryonic suspension" or "vitrification":

Rescue cooling

or maybe

Rescue freezing

Feel free to pass this along to Alcor etc.

Damien Broderick


From olga.bourlin at gmail.com  Thu Jul 29 01:16:05 2010
From: olga.bourlin at gmail.com (Olga Bourlin)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 18:16:05 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Transhumanist music
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=Yyo8rMo0QSKQJVSuaC=P-L_ORr3Rr9e+07FnV@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTi=Yyo8rMo0QSKQJVSuaC=P-L_ORr3Rr9e+07FnV@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimrYxP=8p46iewjO_m5TTtPoMiUSQrnjOmyb5ZS@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jul 28, 2010 at 4:55 PM, John Grigg <possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com> wrote:
> I went looking for transhumanist themed music but did not find very
> much, even after much googling.
>
> *Must see!* ?"The Nano Song!" ?Children's programming meets The
> Foresight Institute! LOL
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFoC-uxRqCg&feature=related

I haven't listened to all the songs posted (I am familiar with the "I
Am the Very Model of a Singularitarian" - like that one ;).

But I just wrote the following on my Facebook wall (because John -
whom I love dearly and know his "heart" ;) posted the children's Nano
Song, and I just about "fwew up" because ...:

Yipes! How many people were involved in this production, and why
didn't any of them learn their ...prepositions in school? "Ms. Moore"
here is singing: "Nano things are way too small for you or I to see
..." Aaaaaaaaaargh!!! "For" is a preposition ... one doesn't say "for
I."

It's "for me!"

You know that song: "The bells are ringing for me and my gal ..."
(Would "Ms. Moore's" version be: "The bells are ringing for I and my
gal ..."

It's "for me!"

Think of how the old Johnny Mathis song would have sounded if he sang:
"It's not for I to say you love me; It's not for I to say you'll
always care." The song itself, of course, would have been called "It's
Not for I to Say."

It's "for me!"

I tried, but I just couldn't get beyond "too small for you or I ..."

It's just not for me ... :((



From rtomek at ceti.pl  Thu Jul 29 03:22:54 2010
From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola)
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 05:22:54 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] Religions and violence
In-Reply-To: <EF03FE45-EEC3-418C-ABF4-5C3C5BA99840@bellsouth.net>
References: <201007211513.o6LFDcxv019859@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<20100721194356.GC23426@ofb.net>
	<4135667C-A61C-44E5-8477-04E6BA1FDC3A@bellsouth.net>
	<AANLkTimiTa1WFDUfRmwx3PWJKbSpPkLU_RxQeNNdMDHz@mail.gmail.com>
	<B502B0B7-EBC6-472C-B377-7D40732EF526@bellsouth.net>
	<AANLkTikFV+LFy9mwFB_XLHgHgCK0sH4L-hvPqyekzNY7@mail.gmail.com>
	<EF03FE45-EEC3-418C-ABF4-5C3C5BA99840@bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1007290343110.10686@tau.ceti.pl>

Ok, John Clark.

You have few points right, but not as many as you think (IMHO, of course). 
I would say, you tend to be 50% right. Try to improve a little, eh?

On Mon, 26 Jul 2010, John Clark wrote:

> On Jul 23, 2010, at 6:38 PM, Jeff Davis wrote:
> > 
> > The Jews are successful because their historical coincidences
> > pushed them in the direction of mercantilism and finance capitalism.[...]
> > Islam has followed a course more in line with religious conservatism.
> > That this has held Muslims "back"
> 
> I could not agree with you more, although the same ideas could be 
> expressed more concisely as "Islamic culture sucks".

As has been already stated, Islamic culture saved a lot of ancient (in a 
sense of ancient Greece and Rome) wisdom for us. True, there was also 
burning of the books. So, some people burned the books, because of their 
Muslim faith. And some people (because of the same faith) read those Greek 
maths texts (I have once heard, that while in Europe at the time some 
people could understand Greek, still they were unable to understand what 
all this means). They have been extending the knowledge, even building 
flying apparatus on occassion. In their finest years, Islamic scientists
and thinkers did whatever one would expect from any other enlightened 
people.

So, if you want to tell things like "Islamic culture this or that", it 
would be great if you were more specific. Is it about their whole culture, 
absolutely? No woman, no kitchen, no jewelry, no calligraphy of Islamic 
origin is good enough for you? Do you differentiate Islam of Saharan 
Beduins from Islam of Iranian women professors? Do you realize there are 
3-7 milion Muslims in USA? Even if you say that American Muslims suck, not 
my problem. But we have a Muslim minority in Poland (Tatar descendants, 
among others) and I don't think they suck (not as a whole, at least).

> > But -- and you knew this was coming -- where is it written that
> > smartness, or wealth, or Nobel Prizes is the metric by which to judge
> > one group "better" than another?
> 
> Well, I'll write it right here if you like, I'll write that smartness 
> and wealth and Nobel Prizes is a pretty God damn good metric for judging 
> one group BETTER than another, especially when it includes much more 
> personal freedom, and I don't even need weasel quotation marks. 

One other metrics comes to my mind. Origin of words. A number of words in 
technology, science and engineering comes from Greek and Latin. Some words 
come from Arabic and even Persian (surprisingly many of them). I believe 
there are even some words from Sanskrit and Chinese (but I cannot recall 
any ATM).

Are there any words coming from Hebrew? I am curiuos, really. Yiddish, as 
a High German dialect, does not count.

> And I was wondering if your aversion in labeling one group better than 
> another extend to all groups, would you refuse to stand up and say most 
> groups are superior to the Nazi group?

I would. You forgot to specify a criteria. So I propose, that you compare:

- unemployment rate
- number of police officers killed on duty
- number of financial scandals involving banks, insurance and other such 
institutions
- number of drug abusing teens
- number of suicidal jerks shooting people on the streets until they get 
gunned down by the SWAT

in Nazi Germany and contemporary USA.

Also, you can tell me, who had the first rocket capable of reaching space? 
Sure, that were suborbital flights actually, but if we take that space 
begins at 100km (officialy defined limit of Outer Space, or Karman 
line)...

And while I say all this, I don't count myself among Nazi supporters, 
it's just that I understand the world is a bit more complicated than 
simply black and white.

> > rebranding the Nobel prize as the Capitalist Megadeath prize, then 
> > that 165 to 6 comparison doesn't quite feel as impressive as before.
> 
> Yes but who would be so anti-intellectual as to call the Nobel prize the 
> Megadeath prize? Well I can think of one group and it starts with the 
> letter "I".

Care to give me example of members of "I" group expressing this point of 
view? Care to explain if they are representing anybody but themselves?

> > It's no crime to want to live the way you and yours have lived since
> > before you can remember.
> 
> But it is a crime to force others to live as if it were the twelfth 
> century. I just don't get it, why do some otherwise freethinking people 
> in the west feel they are obligated to make excuses for intellectual and 
> moral midgets? These same people don't hesitate to point out the 
> slightest flaw in their own culture, but they pretend they don't see the 
> elephant in the living room, the hideous evil in Islam.

Are you sure anybody _is_ forced? From what I know, people enforced to do 
anything form opposition. Where are anti-islamic guerillas? Even in Soviet 
Union, there were uprisings (with victims on both sides). Where are 
anti-islamic uprisings? Have you heard of any? If not active fighters, 
there were also many cases of sabbotage during WW2 - so, maybe guys are 
sabbotaging their Islamic regimes?

I'm not excusing anybody. But I like questions.

It seems that most of Muslim people like their way of living. What I hear 
about are some people who had bad luck of living in bad place. Based on 
what information I have, it is impossible to tell if their cases are 
typical or not. In our own culture, it happens that wife is beaten by 
drunken husband. It is bad. It is not typical. In more civilised countries 
it is actually persecuted.

> > The Western world is in full-throated Muslim-hating mode
> 
> No that is not true, but I wish it was. Instead the western world is in 
> full-throated suicidal self hatred mode with a vast supply of half baked 
> excuses for the atrocities of Islam.

I don't feel like self-hatred. I wonder why anybody would want to change 
from self-hate to Islam-hate. Probably some suicidal type that you write 
about. If someone needs hate to live, pity on him. And give him a shovel, 
he will need it.

> > I know it is a weakness of human nature to become
> > emotionally invested in inconsequential tribal spats,
> > but people who want to be transhumanists need to be
> > able to get past that
> 
> If Islam wins this tribal spat NOBODY is going to become transhuman.

I doubt it. Even if agressive Islam wins, which I doubt too, I don't think 
it will make it to last so long.

Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.      **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home    **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...      **
**                                                                 **
** Tomasz Rola          mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com             **


From max at maxmore.com  Thu Jul 29 04:49:33 2010
From: max at maxmore.com (Max More)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 23:49:33 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Transhumanist music
Message-ID: <201007290449.o6T4niDI004242@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

One you missed is the amazing singing by our own Emlyn Regan. See, 
for instance:
http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/dsp.cgi?msg=16162

I also thought that The Shamen's Phorever People was highly extropic 
and arguably transhumanist (listen to the lyrics).

Max

John Grigg:
>I went looking for transhumanist themed music but did not find very 
>much, even after much googling.





From giulio at gmail.com  Thu Jul 29 05:18:00 2010
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 07:18:00 +0200
Subject: [ExI] TRANSVISION 2010 Toward Scientific Futurism
Message-ID: <AANLkTikaagRXOfnPVaMZnyOY8_Sd8+L-ZRX9HnXPWQC5@mail.gmail.com>

Some translated excerpts of Roberto Guerra?s TRANSVISION 2010 Verso il
Futurismo Scientifico (original in Italian), with comments. Roberto is
one of the leading Italian Futurist (not Neo-Futurist: Futurism is
always Neo) artists and, like all Futurist writers, he uses language
in a mercurial and unconventional way which makes his writings a
pleasure to read, but difficult to translate. My translation is
understandable, but does not have the futurist sparks of the original,
and I encourage those who read Italian to read the original.

English: http://transvision2010.wordpress.com/2010/07/28/transvision-2010-toward-scientific-futurism/
Italian: http://transvision2010.wordpress.com/2010/07/27/transvision-2010-verso-il-futurismo-scientifico-di-roberto-guerra/



From emlynoregan at gmail.com  Thu Jul 29 05:08:30 2010
From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn)
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 15:08:30 +1000
Subject: [ExI] Transhumanist music
In-Reply-To: <201007290449.o6T4niDI004242@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <201007290449.o6T4niDI004242@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikUQFczxE1QgtANqds_BYxCJ3nCHXkcbtGifD9Z@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks for the plug Max.

Here's an up-to-date link

http://point7.wordpress.com/2010/01/17/on-leaving-on-youtube/

One day I'll make a sequel to this :-)

-- 
Emlyn

http://www.blahblahbleh.com - A simple youtube radio that I built
http://point7.wordpress.com - My blog
Find me on Facebook and Buzz



On 29 July 2010 14:49, Max More <max at maxmore.com> wrote:
> One you missed is the amazing singing by our own Emlyn Regan. See, for
> instance:
> http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/dsp.cgi?msg=16162
>
> I also thought that The Shamen's Phorever People was highly extropic and
> arguably transhumanist (listen to the lyrics).
>
> Max
>
> John Grigg:
>>
>> I went looking for transhumanist themed music but did not find very much,
>> even after much googling.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>


From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Thu Jul 29 16:23:17 2010
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 09:23:17 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Islamic culture (current) was Religions and violence
Message-ID: <AANLkTikQ7R8G_LQpfndsrKQ6b1npzAufdxH=rtGjvqcX@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 5:00 AM,  Tomasz Rola <rtomek at ceti.pl> wrote:

> On Mon, 26 Jul 2010, John Clark wrote:
>
>> On Jul 23, 2010, at 6:38 PM, Jeff Davis wrote:
>> >
>> > The Jews are successful because their historical coincidences
>> > pushed them in the direction of mercantilism and finance capitalism.[...]
>> > Islam has followed a course more in line with religious conservatism.
>> > That this has held Muslims "back"

As you point out, Islamic culture was more advanced than western
culture at one time.  The question is not so much about Muslims being
held back but why western culture (Jews included) shot ahead.  Clark
calls this the great divergence and it is the major characteristic of
the world since the industrial revolution.

>> I could not agree with you more, although the same ideas could be
>> expressed more concisely as "Islamic culture sucks".

> As has been already stated, Islamic culture saved a lot of ancient (in a
> sense of ancient Greece and Rome) wisdom for us. True, there was also
> burning of the books. So, some people burned the books, because of their
> Muslim faith. And some people (because of the same faith) read those Greek
> maths texts (I have once heard, that while in Europe at the time some
> people could understand Greek, still they were unable to understand what
> all this means). They have been extending the knowledge, even building
> flying apparatus on occassion. In their finest years, Islamic scientists
> and thinkers did whatever one would expect from any other enlightened
> people.

So what caused the divergence that left them in the dust?

I don't know if it was a cause or an effect, but the Islamic world was
very slow to accept printing.

"In the Islamic community--seat of scientific progress from 750 to
1100 AD--great Islamic empires arose about the time of the printing
press and effectively suppressed that technology until the nineteenth
century, when it did transform the culture. Robinson speculates that
printing threatened the fundamental oral transmission of the Quran,
delaying introduction of the printing press into Islamic culture for
four centuries.[79]

[79] Francis Robinson, "Technology and Religious Change: Islam and the
Impact of Print," Modern Asian Studies (1993), Vol. 27, No. 1, pp.
229-251.

http://www.acm.org/ubiquity/views/j_dewar_1.html

And even when they did, the number of books printed was a very small
fraction of the massive output of western culture.

Gregory Clark would (I think) make a case that the
Malthusian/Darwinian selection process with downward social mobility
caused the psychological traits behind literacy/numeracy to become the
population norms in large areas of Europe where they did not in the
huge swath of Islamic culture (or any other culture in the world I
should add).  Why I don't know.  It would be worth while (if there are
records) to do a study similar to the one Dr. Clark did with English
records to see if some segments of the Arab/Islamic population did
better genetically.

snip

Of course it is even more of a question why the Chinese did so poorly
for so long after being considerably ahead of western culture.  And
why are they doing so well now?

Keith


From jonkc at bellsouth.net  Thu Jul 29 17:31:04 2010
From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John Clark)
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 13:31:04 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Religions and violence
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1007290343110.10686@tau.ceti.pl>
References: <201007211513.o6LFDcxv019859@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<20100721194356.GC23426@ofb.net>
	<4135667C-A61C-44E5-8477-04E6BA1FDC3A@bellsouth.net>
	<AANLkTimiTa1WFDUfRmwx3PWJKbSpPkLU_RxQeNNdMDHz@mail.gmail.com>
	<B502B0B7-EBC6-472C-B377-7D40732EF526@bellsouth.net>
	<AANLkTikFV+LFy9mwFB_XLHgHgCK0sH4L-hvPqyekzNY7@mail.gmail.com>
	<EF03FE45-EEC3-418C-ABF4-5C3C5BA99840@bellsouth.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1007290343110.10686@tau.ceti.pl>
Message-ID: <14164DAE-A3A7-4D57-A060-7B815B09FD12@bellsouth.net>

On Jul 28, 2010, at 11:22 PM, Tomasz Rola wrote:

> As has been already stated, Islamic culture saved a lot of ancient (in a 
> sense of ancient Greece and Rome) wisdom for us.

And as I've already stated many times, whenever an Islamic apologist tries to illustrate the glories of that civilization they ALWAYS pick examples from the eleventh or twelfth century, they really have no choice, they certainly couldn't find anything modern to brag about. And by modern I mean the last few centuries. 

> In their finest years [...]

I don't care because this is not their finest year and is not even close; that was 900 years ago, perhaps more.

> Do you differentiate Islam of Saharan Beduins from Islam of Iranian women professors?

She's from Somalia not Iran but if you mean a professor like Ayaan Hirsi Ali who must remain in hiding for the rest of her life for daring to publicly say that Islam mistreats women then yes, I do differentiate her from the mainstream followers, that is to say the vast majority. It's interesting that these Islamic morons think giving a woman a death sentence for speaking her mind will prove she is not telling the truth when she says that crackpot religion mistreats women.

>> smartness and wealth and Nobel Prizes is a pretty God damn good metric for judging 
>> one group BETTER than another, especially when it includes much more 
>> personal freedom, and I don't even need weasel quotation marks. 
> 
> One other metrics comes to my mind. Origin of words.

What the hell?! A modern civilization is admirable if many centuries ago it was the source of some words we use today? That is nuts.   
> 
> Are there any words coming from Hebrew?

Who cares!
>> 
>> But it is a crime to force others to live as if it were the twelfth 
>> century.

> Are you sure anybody _is_ forced?

Of course I'm sure people are forced. Closing down opposition newspapers is force, being publicly whipped for flying a kite or even for humming is force, throwing acid in the face of young girls on their way to school because the true believers don't think women should be educated is force, flying civilian airliners into civilian skyscrapers is not only force it's barbarism. 

This knee jerk defense of Islam from certain people on the left reminds me of the defense of Stalin the left mounted in the 1930's. Even years later when it became clear to all that Stalin's evil approached that of Hitler some on the left were still angry at those early critics for being prematurely anti-Stalinist. Madness.  

> I wonder why anybody would want to change from self-hate to Islam-hate.

Is that true? Do you really wonder why some people think that might be a rather good idea?

>> who would be so anti-intellectual as to call the Nobel prize the Megadeath prize? Well I can think of one group and it starts with the letter "I".
> 
> Care to give me example of members of "I" group expressing this point of view?

No, that is an exercise for the reader. Think real hard.

  John K Clark



-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100729/e55741a8/attachment.html>

From thespike at satx.rr.com  Thu Jul 29 18:21:44 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 13:21:44 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Religions and violence
In-Reply-To: <14164DAE-A3A7-4D57-A060-7B815B09FD12@bellsouth.net>
References: <201007211513.o6LFDcxv019859@andromeda.ziaspace.com>	<20100721194356.GC23426@ofb.net>	<4135667C-A61C-44E5-8477-04E6BA1FDC3A@bellsouth.net>	<AANLkTimiTa1WFDUfRmwx3PWJKbSpPkLU_RxQeNNdMDHz@mail.gmail.com>	<B502B0B7-EBC6-472C-B377-7D40732EF526@bellsouth.net>	<AANLkTikFV+LFy9mwFB_XLHgHgCK0sH4L-hvPqyekzNY7@mail.gmail.com>	<EF03FE45-EEC3-418C-ABF4-5C3C5BA99840@bellsouth.net>	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1007290343110.10686@tau.ceti.pl>
	<14164DAE-A3A7-4D57-A060-7B815B09FD12@bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <4C51C6B8.7050101@satx.rr.com>

On 7/29/2010 12:31 PM, John Clark wrote:

>>> who would be so anti-intellectual as to call the Nobel prize
>>> the Megadeath prize? Well I can think of one group and it starts with
>>> the letter "I".
>>
>> Care to give me example of members of "I" group expressing this point
>> of view?
>
> No, that is an exercise for the reader. Think real hard.

Presumably John means "Intellectual," on the grounds that intellectuals 
(those soft-brained wankers) are always anti-intellectual.

Damien Broderick


From jrd1415 at gmail.com  Thu Jul 29 18:37:38 2010
From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis)
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 11:37:38 -0700
Subject: [ExI] I never liked the big bang theory anyway
Message-ID: <AANLkTinCFseBvvSZfa44S6ZrMwhSnU6cM5nbCoS5rXxb@mail.gmail.com>

Big Bang Abandoned in New Model of the Universe

A new cosmology successfully explains the accelerating expansion of
the universe without dark energy; but only if the universe has no
beginning and no end.

http://www.technologyreview.com/blog/arxiv/25492/?nlid=3299


From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Thu Jul 29 18:52:39 2010
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 11:52:39 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Religions and violence
In-Reply-To: <4C51C6B8.7050101@satx.rr.com>
References: <201007211513.o6LFDcxv019859@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<20100721194356.GC23426@ofb.net>
	<4135667C-A61C-44E5-8477-04E6BA1FDC3A@bellsouth.net>
	<AANLkTimiTa1WFDUfRmwx3PWJKbSpPkLU_RxQeNNdMDHz@mail.gmail.com>
	<B502B0B7-EBC6-472C-B377-7D40732EF526@bellsouth.net>
	<AANLkTikFV+LFy9mwFB_XLHgHgCK0sH4L-hvPqyekzNY7@mail.gmail.com>
	<EF03FE45-EEC3-418C-ABF4-5C3C5BA99840@bellsouth.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1007290343110.10686@tau.ceti.pl>
	<14164DAE-A3A7-4D57-A060-7B815B09FD12@bellsouth.net>
	<4C51C6B8.7050101@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTiknX8HLPFT9CkQ8P-YWwaB5gcXegJt-0u4G7Nke@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 11:21 AM, Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com> wrote:
> On 7/29/2010 12:31 PM, John Clark wrote:
>
>>>> who would be so anti-intellectual as to call the Nobel prize
>>>> the Megadeath prize? Well I can think of one group and it starts with
>>>> the letter "I".
>>>
>>> Care to give me example of members of "I" group expressing this point
>>> of view?
>>
>> No, that is an exercise for the reader. Think real hard.
>
> Presumably John means "Intellectual," on the grounds that intellectuals
> (those soft-brained wankers) are always anti-intellectual.

### I am an anti-intellectual!

Reading Sowell's "Intellectuals and Society" made me so.

Rafal


From moulton at moulton.com  Thu Jul 29 20:30:45 2010
From: moulton at moulton.com (Fred C. Moulton)
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 13:30:45 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Religions and violence
In-Reply-To: <14164DAE-A3A7-4D57-A060-7B815B09FD12@bellsouth.net>
References: <201007211513.o6LFDcxv019859@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<20100721194356.GC23426@ofb.net>
	<4135667C-A61C-44E5-8477-04E6BA1FDC3A@bellsouth.net>
	<AANLkTimiTa1WFDUfRmwx3PWJKbSpPkLU_RxQeNNdMDHz@mail.gmail.com>
	<B502B0B7-EBC6-472C-B377-7D40732EF526@bellsouth.net>
	<AANLkTikFV+LFy9mwFB_XLHgHgCK0sH4L-hvPqyekzNY7@mail.gmail.com>
	<EF03FE45-EEC3-418C-ABF4-5C3C5BA99840@bellsouth.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1007290343110.10686@tau.ceti.pl>
	<14164DAE-A3A7-4D57-A060-7B815B09FD12@bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <1280435445.26076.620.camel@desktop-linux>


On Thu, 2010-07-29 at 13:31 -0400, John Clark wrote:

> She's from Somalia not Iran but if you mean a professor like Ayaan
> Hirsi Ali who must remain in hiding for the rest of her life for 

To say that Ayann Hirsi Ali is in hiding might be misleading for some
people.  To some people being "in hiding" might mean "not being seen in
public".  That is not the case with Ayaan Hirsi Ali.  

I was in the front row of a sold out event in Palo Alto earlier this
year where Ayann Hirsi Ali was on stage and interviewed for over an
hour.  There were bodyguards but having bodyguards is not the same as
not being seen in public.  So let us all try to be more precise.

According to the information I can find online Ayaan Hirsi Ali is a
Resident Fellow at the American Enterprise Institute; not a professor.
If someone has information that she is currently (or formerly) a
professor please list the particulars and the source of the information.

Fred






From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Thu Jul 29 21:39:34 2010
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 14:39:34 -0700
Subject: [ExI] trying to convince a friend that nanotech is not so bad...
Message-ID: <AANLkTinZdfKTw_q+9nYKFuJzGQ59Yt9s6h2NGPb=BR1V@mail.gmail.com>

A friend wrote to me:
Uh hey, yeah, guess what they put nano tech aluminum in your deodorant
and suntan lotion and oooh its clear - that's so neat!! ooh and dries
fast but whoops u have cancer because it breaks the brain skin blood
barrier!!
oh also now children can get nano carbon bicycle handles and their
hands rub up against it, and it too breaks the skin brain blood
barrier, and whoops my kid needs chemo and a blood transfusion!

How about leave it perfect the way nature intended it! I am open to
non- misappropriate uses of nano but most of what i have ever seen is
being used as a weapon against ppl across the board. we already have
reverse engineered space technology, most of nanotech is being used to
fuck people in my humble opinion.
>>>

My question to the list members is this, how do you deal with these
complaints against the *current state* of nanotechnology?  And will
these problems get worse or better, as time goes by?

Thank you,

John


From sabrina.ballard at hotmail.com  Thu Jul 29 20:06:09 2010
From: sabrina.ballard at hotmail.com (Sabrina Ballard)
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 16:06:09 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Current Psychology
Message-ID: <AANLkTikFmQeXVXC25Qy1kr+Mp8QTXnSgyA71t7BxVPBm@mail.gmail.com>

The Western Psychological profession as a whole seems to be very out of
touch. They still cling to clearly outdated modes from Freud, while physical
medicine seems to be moving forward in its models. Is this my subjective
interpretation, or are any of you able to access information that would
confirm and/or deny this feeling.

Is there some benefit to Western Psychology in clinging to the ideas of
Freud and Jung? Are other models too flawed to take their places?

~Ballard
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100729/ad1bc178/attachment.html>

From sparge at gmail.com  Thu Jul 29 22:48:50 2010
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 18:48:50 -0400
Subject: [ExI] medical marijuana
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTin-uMOmxq0yQ_viw9n3cOWv2HLnFbu_r2BKeTnV@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTimP6SC4V0yy_O0mGnaL2Js7LZTpwBnB-7jji96N@mail.gmail.com> 
	<619642.12227.qm@web81504.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<AANLkTimso0yDdeAO1cBngI1KUV4N0JLwyQOcHM8eyQwG@mail.gmail.com> 
	<AANLkTikuSJjWnPSaPLSCqz5+2PGEYXrW2WPmfinLOLJC@mail.gmail.com> 
	<AANLkTin-uMOmxq0yQ_viw9n3cOWv2HLnFbu_r2BKeTnV@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=QBLkwB=VqhApLx+yQii23qXFgpbThu2EPF8J2@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jul 28, 2010 at 8:29 AM, Stefano Vaj <stefano.vaj at gmail.com> wrote:
> most people smoke cannabis *and* tobacco, not just in the sense
> that they may have tobacco cigarettes and cannabis cigarettes, but
> that they routinely mix dry tobacco, since it burns better, with their
> hashish or marijuana;

I've never heard of anyone doing that. Maybe it's a European thing...

-Dave


From rtomek at ceti.pl  Fri Jul 30 02:37:07 2010
From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola)
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2010 04:37:07 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] trying to convince a friend that nanotech is not so bad...
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinZdfKTw_q+9nYKFuJzGQ59Yt9s6h2NGPb=BR1V@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTinZdfKTw_q+9nYKFuJzGQ59Yt9s6h2NGPb=BR1V@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1007300316050.7601@tau.ceti.pl>

On Thu, 29 Jul 2010, John Grigg wrote:

> A friend wrote to me:
> Uh hey, yeah, guess what they put nano tech aluminum in your deodorant
> and suntan lotion and oooh its clear - that's so neat!! ooh and dries
> fast but whoops u have cancer because it breaks the brain skin blood
> barrier!!
> oh also now children can get nano carbon bicycle handles and their
> hands rub up against it, and it too breaks the skin brain blood
> barrier, and whoops my kid needs chemo and a blood transfusion!

Uhhum, breaking skin-brain barrier? Does it mean breaking through their 
skulls? Sorry for the pun :-).

> How about leave it perfect the way nature intended it! I am open to

Ah, what the nature intended, we cannot ask it. There is a catch involved 
with this phrase. Example: if the nature intended us to drive bicycles, we 
would have had seats permamently stuck to our bottoms - so I am grateful 
it did not (apparently) intended so. But I would like to drive my bicycle 
anyway.

Also, nature gave us those big brains, which means (to me at least) we are 
expected to meddle with things, try, search, make mistakes and try again.

> non- misappropriate uses of nano but most of what i have ever seen is
> being used as a weapon against ppl across the board. we already have
> reverse engineered space technology, most of nanotech is being used to
> fuck people in my humble opinion.

Well, not really, I think. It's not nanotech that is misused but just the 
word is applied and twisted to fit with quite normal (one would like to 
say, classical) products. So if people are fscked, it's not nanotechnology 
to be blamed, because there is not so much of it in real production use 
nowadays (I suppose). And where there is some, the trend is to not call it 
by name (like with microelectronics).

> My question to the list members is this, how do you deal with these
> complaints against the *current state* of nanotechnology?
>  And will
> these problems get worse or better, as time goes by?

Probably worse for some time. Nano is new for common folk, not many people 
care about DNA repairing machines and marketoids have already started to 
abuse the term because it is mentally connected to "The Future". In the 
real future, there is some potential in nano automatization, which will 
add to uncertainty. Why bother about being RFID-ed (or other-way-ID-ed) 
when I can have a fabricated drink? I can be put under surveillance in 
almost no time and at minimal cost thanks to the coming of microbots. One 
can be sure there will be new flavors of antigovt activism.

I didn't have the need to deal with such complaints. If I had, I would try 
my best to point the folk to positive sides while trying to make them 
understand what was nonsense. I believe in the long term positives will 
prevail. Like better implants of all kinds for elderly and disabled. 
Repairing failing body parts and tissues (as an alternative/complement to 
gene therapy and tissue engineering). Giving water cleaning kits to those 
that lack potable water access. And prospects of having amazing devices 
built really cheap, one day. And in the longer run, if it is possible to 
build transistors and vaccum tubes in a home lab today, sometime in a 
future some people (maybe we ourselves) will have truly wonderful powers 
at their disposal [1].

Well, that's just theory. As I observe a so called computer revolution, 
I have to say that while we have on our desks rough equivalents of 
supercomputers from 20 years ago, now the "power" is used in really 
strange ways. Like rendering flies hoovering over dead enemies in first 
person shooter. On the other hand, there is very real movement towards 
donating CPU cycles to research projects. So not all is bad, just I would 
like more of the good, rather than reading about "third gen hoovering 
flies".

So, whatever we think of nano future, our imagined applications will 
probably be marginal, while mainstream will go with light emitting hairs, 
animations stuck on cheeks and self moding into mythical animals (or 
those... you know... franco bilbos, bingo bilbos, gandalfs, whatever is 
their bloody name). Perhaps this is the price (very moderate indeed) for 
microbotic surgery or ability to build even better space telescopes... in 
space.

Regards,
Tomasz Rola

[1] Actually, if we want to look at it from some perspective, those who 
will posess nanotech might choose to keep it to themselves. For them, 
god-like power, for us, endless (in theory, again) obedience. Myself, I 
detest such outcome as very nonhumane in nature (I perceive transhumanism 
as humane, because in my view it intends to improve the whole mankind).

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.      **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home    **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...      **
**                                                                 **
** Tomasz Rola          mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com             **


From msd001 at gmail.com  Fri Jul 30 02:14:03 2010
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 22:14:03 -0400
Subject: [ExI] trying to convince a friend that nanotech is not so bad...
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinZdfKTw_q+9nYKFuJzGQ59Yt9s6h2NGPb=BR1V@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTinZdfKTw_q+9nYKFuJzGQ59Yt9s6h2NGPb=BR1V@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=4Xvp6FM1nfOQ9mO0Gm0Zu3WW_wbG7hJ_FzZgX@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 5:39 PM, John Grigg <possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com> wrote:
> A friend wrote to me:
> Uh hey, yeah, guess what they put nano tech aluminum in your deodorant
> and suntan lotion and oooh its clear - that's so neat!! ooh and dries
> fast but whoops u have cancer because it breaks the brain skin blood
> barrier!!
> oh also now children can get nano carbon bicycle handles and their
> hands rub up against it, and it too breaks the skin brain blood
> barrier, and whoops my kid needs chemo and a blood transfusion!
>
> How about leave it perfect the way nature intended it! I am open to
> non- misappropriate uses of nano but most of what i have ever seen is
> being used as a weapon against ppl across the board. we already have
> reverse engineered space technology, most of nanotech is being used to
> fuck people in my humble opinion.
>>>>
>
> My question to the list members is this, how do you deal with these
> complaints against the *current state* of nanotechnology? ?And will
> these problems get worse or better, as time goes by?

While waiting for a seat to get a haircut, I listened to a
conversation between a room full of stylists discussing a broken water
fountain.  One lady offered to bring in a case of bottled water that
she had purchased earlier that day which was still in her car.
Another of the group advised her that if the car was sitting in the
sun that the water was ruined because the "chemicals" in the plastic
bottles would get into the water and then drinking the water would
"cause cancer."

I imagined that this one woman really believed that a single (20 oz?)
bottle of water was so poisonous that drinking it would immediately
give her cancer.  I also imagined that this same woman would, on her
lunch break, go out of her way to secure a fast-food lunch complete
with soda.  So I wonder how much more toxic is a bottle of water left
in a car during the day compared to the typical American diet.  Within
5 minutes the alpha of the group had all others convinced that the
woman who offered to share her bottled water was effectively a
half-wit who ignorantly almost killed everyone.

I would remind your friend of the good old days before
antimicrobial/antibacterial nanotech (silver nano).  Consider the
effectiveness of sunscreens using titanium oxide.  Think of the
increased efficiency of nanoparticle strengthened steel for car
frames.  Without nanoparticle coatings, you can go back to a time
before lcd touch screens or solar panels.  Go back to uncoated
porcelain so scrubbing a toilet was a mechanical labor and not the
promise of a wonder-product.

The way nature intended?  Such as the aerosol particles like coal dust
and metallic filings?  How about we go back to lining buildings with
asbestos for fire protection?  The good old days sucked.  I want more
nanotech and I want it to be cheaper.  I'll risk having a slightly
more dangerous manufacturing facility staffed with robots if it means
goods that are inherently wear resistant or weather proof.  I'll risk
having a carbon-fiber rod break while assembling a tent if it means I
can carry 8 kilograms less weight while backpacking (which would
likely mean I was doing something incredibly stupid to break a
carbon-fiber tent pole since they're effectively indestructible)  Most
likely any cut I might incur during my hike is answered immediately
with an antiseptic spray-on skin sealant.  In a real emergency, I
could tap a few times on the touch-screen phone and follow gps
directions or call someone to retrieve me.  Nature may intend survival
of the fittest;  humans excel at building and using tools (including
nano technology) to ensure continued fitness.



From stathisp at gmail.com  Fri Jul 30 09:48:18 2010
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2010 19:48:18 +1000
Subject: [ExI] Current Psychology
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikFmQeXVXC25Qy1kr+Mp8QTXnSgyA71t7BxVPBm@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTikFmQeXVXC25Qy1kr+Mp8QTXnSgyA71t7BxVPBm@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinAhy7QO+Oe2S+D4-WBBkjMES1fLdn_DfwF70tk@mail.gmail.com>

2010/7/30 Sabrina Ballard <sabrina.ballard at hotmail.com>:
> The Western Psychological profession as a whole seems to be very out of
> touch. They still cling to clearly outdated modes from Freud, while physical
> medicine seems to be moving forward in its models. Is this my subjective
> interpretation, or are any of you able to access information that would
> confirm and/or deny this feeling.
>
> Is there some benefit to Western Psychology in clinging to the ideas of
> Freud and Jung? Are other models too flawed to take their places?

Clinical psychology at least in English-speaking countries is
dominated by Cognitive Behavioural Therapy, while psychiatry is
dominated by biological psychiatry, involving the use of physical
therapies such as medication. There are still some psychoanalytic
therapists who base their work on Freud and his disciples, but they
are rarer.


-- 
Stathis Papaioannou


From giulio at gmail.com  Fri Jul 30 10:50:56 2010
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2010 12:50:56 +0200
Subject: [ExI] teleXLR8: ASIM 2010, Suzanne Gildert on Quantum Computing,
	Ben 	Goertzel on the Cosmist Manifesto
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=HisSco2_ag5UfUGwiSwiA2ZKRBp3foJPgV69=@mail.gmail.com>

teleXLR8: ASIM 2010, Suzanne Gildert on Quantum Computing, Ben
Goertzel on the Cosmist Manifesto
http://giulioprisco.blogspot.com/2010/07/telexlr8-asim-2010-suzanne-gildert-on.html

Next events in teleXLR8, a telepresence community for cultural acceleration:

Ben Goertzel will give a talk in Teleplace on his recent book ?A
Cosmist Manifesto: Practical Philosophy for the Posthuman Age? on
September 12, 2010, at 10am PST (1pm EST, 6pm UK, 7pm CET).
http://telexlr8.wordpress.com/2010/07/30/ben-goertzel-on-the-cosmist-manifesto-in-teleplace-september-12-10am-pst/

Suzanne Gildert will give a talk in Teleplace on ?Building large-scale
quantum computers: Fundamentals, technology and applications? on
September 4, 2010, at 10am PST (1pm EST, 6pm UK, 7pm CET).
http://telexlr8.wordpress.com/2010/07/30/suzanne-gildert-on-building-large-scale-quantum-computers-teleplace-september-4-10am-pst/

We will (probably) be able to provide remote access via Teleplace to
the ASIM 2010 Conference, San Francisco, August 16-17.
http://telexlr8.wordpress.com/2010/07/29/remote-access-via-teleplace-to-the-asim-2010-conference-san-francisco-august-16-17/

Teleplace is one of the best 3D applications for telework, online
meetings, group collaboration, and e-learning in a virtual 3D
environment (v-learning). Those who already have Teleplace accounts
for teleXLR8 can just ahow up at the talks. There are a limited number
of seats available for others, please contact me if you wish to
attend.



From dgreer_68 at hotmail.com  Fri Jul 30 11:35:43 2010
From: dgreer_68 at hotmail.com (darren shawn greer)
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2010 07:35:43 -0400
Subject: [ExI] trying to convince a friend that nanotech is not so bad...
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinZdfKTw_q+9nYKFuJzGQ59Yt9s6h2NGPb=BR1V@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTinZdfKTw_q+9nYKFuJzGQ59Yt9s6h2NGPb=BR1V@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <COL112-W1344646DCC6AC72A08E0E99DAA0@phx.gbl>


> My question to the list members is this, how do you deal with these
> complaints against the *current state* of nanotechnology? And will
> these problems get worse or better, as time goes by?
 
 
 
I'm not convinced a simple round-up of the facts concerning nanotechnology, and its benefits, both current and projected, would actually convince your friend. I've had this discussion with people about various technologies and a few other subjects as well. He seems pretty emotive regarding the subject, and based on my experience, you?re unlikely to change his mind quickly. It seems to me he has a problem with human intent and competence rather than the technology itself. It might pay to remind him of that; that if human beings really want to f%$# other human beings, there are myriad ways to accomplish that at their disposal already. 
 
 
As for being the way nature intended, I agree with Tomasz. We are long past those days. Nature apparently intended for homo-erectus to live only eighteen to twenty years in a natural state, with an extreme "old age," which was unlikely in his harsh and dangerous living environment, in the mid-thirties. The old arguments apply; we are saturated with technology already and these advancements are likely to continue whether we agree with them or not. Sure, there is a possibility of misuse and error. There always is. Perhaps remind him of Turing's "machines", and the fact that some of these ideas were originally conceived for the purposes of cracking war code. Yet the benefits of Turing's work have far out-weighed any negative consequences. Computers have revolutionized our planet, and most of it for the better. Nanotechnology has the potential to do for human physical reality what the data-sphere is doing for the mind.
 
As for the situation getting worse or better--likely worse, until people have gone through the process of being assured the science is sound and the various processes safe. We will eventually concede, when we experience the benefits and they begin to outweigh the fear. You might not want to say this to him, but he should quit worrying. We are long past the point where we could simply say ?halt!?, and let nature take its course. Technology combined with human curiosity and a seemingly innate need to augment our natural reality is self-replicating. We couldn't stop now even if we wanted to.
 
Cheers,
 
Darren





Per Ardua Ad Astra

For more info on author Darren Greer visit

http://darrenshawngreer.blogspot.com

[http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4024/4245645008_1d9f941297.jpg]






----------------------------------------
> Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 14:39:34 -0700
> From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com
> To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> Subject: [ExI] trying to convince a friend that nanotech is not so bad...
>
> A friend wrote to me:
> Uh hey, yeah, guess what they put nano tech aluminum in your deodorant
> and suntan lotion and oooh its clear - that's so neat!! ooh and dries
> fast but whoops u have cancer because it breaks the brain skin blood
> barrier!!
> oh also now children can get nano carbon bicycle handles and their
> hands rub up against it, and it too breaks the skin brain blood
> barrier, and whoops my kid needs chemo and a blood transfusion!
>
> How about leave it perfect the way nature intended it! I am open to
> non- misappropriate uses of nano but most of what i have ever seen is
> being used as a weapon against ppl across the board. we already have
> reverse engineered space technology, most of nanotech is being used to
> fuck people in my humble opinion.
>>>>
>
> My question to the list members is this, how do you deal with these
> complaints against the *current state* of nanotechnology? And will
> these problems get worse or better, as time goes by?
>
> Thank you,
>
> John
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat 		 	   		  


From bbenzai at yahoo.com  Fri Jul 30 13:17:29 2010
From: bbenzai at yahoo.com (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2010 06:17:29 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] trying to convince a friend that nanotech is not so bad...
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1280491202.6176.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <285895.15939.qm@web114403.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

John Grigg <possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com> revealed:

> A friend wrote to me:
> Uh hey, yeah, guess what they put nano tech aluminum in
> your deodorant
> and suntan lotion and oooh its clear - that's so neat!! ooh
> and dries
> fast but whoops u have cancer because it breaks the brain
> skin blood
> barrier!!
> oh also now children can get nano carbon bicycle handles
> and their
> hands rub up against it, and it too breaks the skin brain
> blood
> barrier, and whoops my kid needs chemo and a blood
> transfusion!
> 
> How about leave it perfect the way nature intended it! I am
> open to
> non- misappropriate uses of nano but most of what i have
> ever seen is
> being used as a weapon against ppl across the board. we
> already have
> reverse engineered space technology, most of nanotech is
> being used to
> fuck people in my humble opinion.
> 

Yikes.

Alexander Pope had it right when he wrote "A little learning is a dang'rous thing..."

This is why everybody needs a good scientific education these days.  


> My question to the list members is this, how do you deal
> with these
> complaints against the *current state* of
> nanotechnology?  And will
> these problems get worse or better, as time goes by?

Unfortunately, most people aren't getting a good (or even any) scientific education these days, so I don't see the problem getting any better, in the short-term, anyway.

Pointing out the errors in this kind of thinking is more likely to result in entrenchment than anything else, so there's probably not much point in telling people what the blood-brain barrier actually is, why it has virtually nothing to do with cancer, why 'Natural' != 'Good', etc.

On the whole, emotions are more important in people's thinking than logic.  If you want to convince someone that something is not bad, you need to get them to feel it. Intellectual understanding is not enough.  

How can nanotech make joe soap's life better? How can it give them what their bellies and gonads want?  Show someone a big enough carrot, and make the facts available to them.  They'll do their own rationalising and adjust their own beliefs accordingly.

Ben Zaiboc


      




From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Fri Jul 30 14:27:00 2010
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2010 07:27:00 -0700
Subject: [ExI] trying to convince a friend that nanotech is not so bad...
In-Reply-To: <285895.15939.qm@web114403.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.1.1280491202.6176.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<285895.15939.qm@web114403.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimrnq_3K6-mnrQPk4GPODG4vj2N3ib69XHZNMaN@mail.gmail.com>

darren greer wrote:
He seems pretty emotive regarding the subject, and based on my
experience, you?re unlikely to change his mind quickly. It seems to me
he has a problem with human intent and competence rather than the
technology itself. It might pay to remind him of that; that if human
beings really want to f%$# other human beings, there are myriad ways
to accomplish that at their disposal already.
>>>

Ben Zaiboc wrote:
On the whole, emotions are more important in people's thinking than
logic.  If you want to convince someone that something is not bad, you
need to get them to feel it. Intellectual understanding is not enough.
>>>

Actually, it's a she, a very beautiful, young, and passionate woman...
 Yes, this friend greatly distrusts corporate America and she even
takes part in public protests against them.  But she is not entire
close-minded, and I do concede that there are some dangers with the
current state of nanotech.  Ironically, she yearns for a utopian
world, and nanotech will be a key component of any such future
society.  I plan to give her a good book on the subject, any
suggestions?

John



On 7/30/10, Ben Zaiboc <bbenzai at yahoo.com> wrote:
> John Grigg <possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com> revealed:
>
>> A friend wrote to me:
>> Uh hey, yeah, guess what they put nano tech aluminum in
>> your deodorant
>> and suntan lotion and oooh its clear - that's so neat!! ooh
>> and dries
>> fast but whoops u have cancer because it breaks the brain
>> skin blood
>> barrier!!
>> oh also now children can get nano carbon bicycle handles
>> and their
>> hands rub up against it, and it too breaks the skin brain
>> blood
>> barrier, and whoops my kid needs chemo and a blood
>> transfusion!
>>
>> How about leave it perfect the way nature intended it! I am
>> open to
>> non- misappropriate uses of nano but most of what i have
>> ever seen is
>> being used as a weapon against ppl across the board. we
>> already have
>> reverse engineered space technology, most of nanotech is
>> being used to
>> fuck people in my humble opinion.
>>
>
> Yikes.
>
> Alexander Pope had it right when he wrote "A little learning is a dang'rous
> thing..."
>
> This is why everybody needs a good scientific education these days.
>
>
>> My question to the list members is this, how do you deal
>> with these
>> complaints against the *current state* of
>> nanotechnology?  And will
>> these problems get worse or better, as time goes by?
>
> Unfortunately, most people aren't getting a good (or even any) scientific
> education these days, so I don't see the problem getting any better, in the
> short-term, anyway.
>
> Pointing out the errors in this kind of thinking is more likely to result in
> entrenchment than anything else, so there's probably not much point in
> telling people what the blood-brain barrier actually is, why it has
> virtually nothing to do with cancer, why 'Natural' != 'Good', etc.
>
> On the whole, emotions are more important in people's thinking than logic.
> If you want to convince someone that something is not bad, you need to get
> them to feel it. Intellectual understanding is not enough.
>
> How can nanotech make joe soap's life better? How can it give them what
> their bellies and gonads want?  Show someone a big enough carrot, and make
> the facts available to them.  They'll do their own rationalising and adjust
> their own beliefs accordingly.
>
> Ben Zaiboc
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>



From patrickkmclaren at gmail.com  Fri Jul 30 13:25:58 2010
From: patrickkmclaren at gmail.com (Patrick McLaren)
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2010 23:25:58 +1000
Subject: [ExI] Current Psychology
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinAhy7QO+Oe2S+D4-WBBkjMES1fLdn_DfwF70tk@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTikFmQeXVXC25Qy1kr+Mp8QTXnSgyA71t7BxVPBm@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinAhy7QO+Oe2S+D4-WBBkjMES1fLdn_DfwF70tk@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimyDZokHLag7D6F+cTqXsDowZV63w3wkPVDJhvn@mail.gmail.com>

May I ask you to review the work of my father?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niall_McLaren

>From wikipedia:

His interest lies in building the foundations for a better psychiatry: ?A
critical analysis of the logical status of modern psychiatry shows that
psychiatry has no rational basis to its practice, its teaching and its
research. At best, it is a protoscience.? In his view modern psychiatry is
currently operating within the Kuhnian realm of "normal science."

Patrick McLaren
http://www.patrickmclaren.com



On Fri, Jul 30, 2010 at 7:48 PM, Stathis Papaioannou <stathisp at gmail.com>wrote:

> 2010/7/30 Sabrina Ballard <sabrina.ballard at hotmail.com>:
> > The Western Psychological profession as a whole seems to be very out of
> > touch. They still cling to clearly outdated modes from Freud, while
> physical
> > medicine seems to be moving forward in its models. Is this my subjective
> > interpretation, or are any of you able to access information that would
> > confirm and/or deny this feeling.
> >
> > Is there some benefit to Western Psychology in clinging to the ideas of
> > Freud and Jung? Are other models too flawed to take their places?
>
> Clinical psychology at least in English-speaking countries is
> dominated by Cognitive Behavioural Therapy, while psychiatry is
> dominated by biological psychiatry, involving the use of physical
> therapies such as medication. There are still some psychoanalytic
> therapists who base their work on Freud and his disciples, but they
> are rarer.
>
>
> --
> Stathis Papaioannou
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100730/0b2e5880/attachment.html>

From rtomek at ceti.pl  Fri Jul 30 17:43:26 2010
From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola)
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2010 19:43:26 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] Religions and violence
In-Reply-To: <14164DAE-A3A7-4D57-A060-7B815B09FD12@bellsouth.net>
References: <201007211513.o6LFDcxv019859@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<20100721194356.GC23426@ofb.net>
	<4135667C-A61C-44E5-8477-04E6BA1FDC3A@bellsouth.net>
	<AANLkTimiTa1WFDUfRmwx3PWJKbSpPkLU_RxQeNNdMDHz@mail.gmail.com>
	<B502B0B7-EBC6-472C-B377-7D40732EF526@bellsouth.net>
	<AANLkTikFV+LFy9mwFB_XLHgHgCK0sH4L-hvPqyekzNY7@mail.gmail.com>
	<EF03FE45-EEC3-418C-ABF4-5C3C5BA99840@bellsouth.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1007290343110.10686@tau.ceti.pl>
	<14164DAE-A3A7-4D57-A060-7B815B09FD12@bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1007301352070.13150@tau.ceti.pl>

On Thu, 29 Jul 2010, John Clark wrote:

> On Jul 28, 2010, at 11:22 PM, Tomasz Rola wrote:
> 
> > As has been already stated, Islamic culture saved a lot of ancient (in a 
> > sense of ancient Greece and Rome) wisdom for us.
> 
> And as I've already stated many times, whenever an Islamic apologist 
> tries to illustrate the glories of that civilization they ALWAYS pick 
> examples from the eleventh or twelfth century, they really have no 
> choice, they certainly couldn't find anything modern to brag about. And 
> by modern I mean the last few centuries.

John, I think you are awesomly unfair. You do care about being fair, don't 
you? Yet you seem to judge a culture by its last 100 years? Maybe 50? This 
is simply unfair. Unless 100 years is all that culture has. But even in 
this case... well, see below.

But first things first.

I am not telling that we should pat Muslims on their heads because some 
500 or 700 years ago they were much better than today. So we should excuse 
them and what not. All I am telling is that there is much potential in 
Islam to improve and become acceptable in modern times. And they should do 
so not for us merely, but for themselves too.

Also, contrary to what you seem to display, I don't believe that Islam is 
a monolith and that all there is is only bad. If that was true, then we 
are going to be screwed or very busy for the next tens of years (and after 
that, the fallout of such war is going to be much, much worse than Islam 
itself). So I see the only realistic hope in finding someone to talk to on 
the "other side". If we decide there is noone that could be talked to, the 
only other option left is confrontation, sooner or later. And whatever you 
think of it, I don't like the idea - however I can accept selfdefence, in 
which case I would gladly go as far as I saw was needed to make it 
effective (and if I am right to assume that I am a beast in chains, you 
don't want to unchain me, please don't, because after I bite off their 
limbs I would come to bite yours, too).

It is important to try and find some way out of conflict. Such a 
conflict, with modern means, is going to be a big screwup for the whole 
world. It is wise to try to avoid it (but not at all costs - those who 
refuse to pay fast, will pay in the future and much more, anyway - 
surprisingly similar to paying debts or seeing one's dentist).

In the meantime, I try to understand the other side. No matter if they are 
going to be friends or foes, I think it is wise thing to do, as each time 
I read something I also learn something valuable about Islam. Something, 
that you seem to reject. However, it is not my problem really.

Also, I find it interesting that in one sentence you condemn some actions 
taken by one Muslim group on the other, and in the next sentence you 
condemn the whole Islam as such. So, logic tells me, you are despising 
both wrongdoers and their victims, am I right? Far below, I post a link to 
article about treatment of Nobel laureates by some Muslim groups (yip, 
thanks for ispiration). If I wanted to adopt your point of view, which 
side should I choose - or maybe all of them are equally bad? Muslim 
noblist is still a Muslim, you know. Why should I support his case?

So all in all, while you have some good points, I think you also tend to
contradict yourself.

> > In their finest years [...]
> 
> I don't care because this is not their finest year and is not even 
> close; that was 900 years ago, perhaps more.

Okay. So what time period do you actually care about? Let's assume it is 
from 1901 (the first Nobel Price awarded) upto today. Is it ok for you?

Now, let's assume we don't care what was there before this date. Sure 
there was something, maybe big emptiness there was, maybe something else. 
We don't care. Click.

For the sake of reason, we can assume that before Y1 (year one), we had
some tribes living in sands. When Y1 began, colonial powers popped out on 
the map in most places where there are Islamic countries today, and 
Ottoman Empire (on it's last legs) and Russia occupied the rest. There was 
also Iran, Afghanistan, Arabia, Libya and Morocco. The territories were 
either under foreign administration (and I don't think they cared much 
about educating their serfs) or poor and under influence of their colonial 
neighbours (Iran/Persia and Afghanistan - maybe they were somewhat 
better).

So, this is how we start the history. Now, I don't want to write for the 
whole weekend. There is a lot of info covering the subject. To simplify, 
somewhere around Y50 (up to Y65) all of those countries gained political
independence. You wouldn't expect them to invest heavily in science and 
technology during their turbulent first 20 years or so, would you? Before 
investing in universities, they had to prepare primary education, create 
infrastructure, and so on. Sometimes they had successes, sometimes they 
failed. Sometimes they could extend and build upon what had been left by 
their former "masters".

I would say, they were mostly successful - compared to countries like 
Congo, at least their children have better prospects than working in a 
mine. Maybe they could do better, but I am not sure. My understanding of 
those times is there was a lot of stir that must have contributed both to 
creative ferment and to detriment.

So, we come to Y85. We are in the middle of another war (Iraq-Iran). 
Between Y50 and Y89, there was quite a lot of conflicts in the area 
(surprisingly, after the fall of communism, they seem to quiet down a 
lot). Some countries, like Liban, have been actually brought down to their 
knees (or maybe even lower than that). There wasn't anything like big 
climate for building modern secular state (with possible exception of 
Turkey, perhaps). For me it seems, one could for example become US ally, 
which not necessarily meant ruling party would be after real development. 
Or one could go against the West, mostly against US or Israel (more or 
less), in which case development is going to be even more difficult and 
there is political need to ally with Islamic element (which doesn't see 
development in western terms as something very valuable and brings in 
even more anti-israel resentment).

What is interesting, is that guys were able to come into building atomic 
technology so fast (Y81 - Israel bombs Osiraq, Y107 - Israel bombs Deir 
ez-Zor, Y98 Pakistan tests its own bomb). Sure, they have bought most of 
hardware from western countries, including USA (I wonder if they bought 
anything from Soviet Union and/or Russia, but probably not, since we 
don't hear any big halo about it in the news).

Anyway, as I said, whatever there was achieved in Islamic region (and if 
you say nothing was achieved, I would like you to elaborate on this), so 
whatever was achieved, it was against the odds really and in a very short 
time - as we have Y110 now, which is about 50 years for going from 
semi-tribal lifestyle to their own nuclear reactors. Just my opinion.

Which makes me to state again: John, you are awesomly unfair.

> > Do you differentiate Islam of Saharan Beduins from Islam of Iranian 
> > women professors?
> 
> She's from Somalia not Iran but if you mean a professor like Ayaan Hirsi 
> Ali who must remain in hiding for the rest of her life for daring to 
> publicly say that Islam mistreats women then yes, I do differentiate her 
> from the mainstream followers, that is to say the vast majority. It's 
> interesting that these Islamic morons think giving a woman a death 
> sentence for speaking her mind will prove she is not telling the truth 
> when she says that crackpot religion mistreats women.

The case of ma'am Ayaan Hirsi Ali has been already covered by someone who 
obviously knows more about her than I. I am sorry to hear she is in 
danger. Her biogram in wikipedia reveals that she is very interesting 
persona.

Yet again, it is the same "crackpot religion" in Somalia and in Iran. 
However, the situation of women in both countries is totally different.
Even more so before Islamic revolution in Iran, but since that time women 
seem to get more and more of their "foot in the doors". My feel is, you 
can't simply say both countries are the same. Or point you finger at, say, 
Somalia, and then make a big circle on a map and say "all crap". And in 
Somalia case, the crap - I believe - is more because of disintegration of 
the state and not necessarilly because of Islam. Actually, Islam came to 
places where there were various beliefs and practices. This should be 
taken under account.

At the same time, I understand that Islam - when it is let to rule the 
country - makes life harsh for a lot of people. While on the one side Iran 
seems to be slowly reforming (going back and forth on occasion), there are 
also stories of supression of other religious groups, like Zoroastrans. On 
the other hand, it was their own Iranian people who made their Islamic
Revolution. And from what I have read, there were women too, demanding 
come back to tradition.

[Also it should be asked, to which extent those reforms are "real" rather 
than inspired by Iran current political situation (which prompts for 
securing services of thinking people instead of suppressing them).]

So for me, it's all a bit more complicated. My info says, Islam not only 
mistreats women - it treats them, too. This is why I object your 
generalizing views.

> >> smartness and wealth and Nobel Prizes is a pretty God damn good metric for judging 
> >> one group BETTER than another, especially when it includes much more 
> >> personal freedom, and I don't even need weasel quotation marks. 
> > 
> > One other metrics comes to my mind. Origin of words.
> 
> What the hell?! A modern civilization is admirable if many centuries ago 
> it was the source of some words we use today? That is nuts.

I don't think it's nuts. It tells about some culture's contributions, that 
last longer than it's buildings, people or books. It also tells a lot 
about our roots. At least about my roots, since I understand you don't 
care about yours (even if we actually share them).

If you are entitled to choose your metrics, then I am as well qualified to 
choose mine.

BTW, I don't admire modern Greece so much. My metrics are not much about 
admiration. More like about understanding.

> > Are there any words coming from Hebrew?
> 
> Who cares!

I do. I tried to find some, but on this page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_words_of_Hebrew_origin

I was only able to spot things like "meshuga" and "beelzebub". And 
"cabal"... If I learned about existence of Hebrew words in science and 
technology, it would have told me something more about Jewish 
contributions to the world's (or at least western) culture. Right now, 
lack of them only tells me Jews are relative newcomers to the field. I 
agree they are able to do good job (I myself greet engineers from Israeli 
Intel division for improving Pentium architecture, so it definitely sucks 
less). But when it comes to pioneering, this is still not here, it seems.

> >> But it is a crime to force others to live as if it were the twelfth 
> >> century.
> 
> > Are you sure anybody _is_ forced?
> 
> Of course I'm sure people are forced. Closing down opposition newspapers 
> is force, being publicly whipped for flying a kite or even for humming 
> is force, throwing acid in the face of young girls on their way to 
> school because the true believers don't think women should be educated 
> is force, flying civilian airliners into civilian skyscrapers is not 
> only force it's barbarism.

Okaaay. But since you are overgeneralising, it is hard for me to 
distinguish which countries are actually bad and which are not. Please say 
more. There is about twenty of them. Or thirty. Maybe even forty. Depends 
how we count.

> This knee jerk defense of Islam from certain people on the left reminds 
> me of the defense of Stalin the left mounted in the 1930's. Even years 
> later when it became clear to all that Stalin's evil approached that of 
> Hitler some on the left were still angry at those early critics for 
> being prematurely anti-Stalinist. Madness.

I am not sure if you mean me with this diatribe, so just for your info: I 
neither bow nor knee unless there is important reason to. I am neither for 
left nor for right, only for myself.

The real madness is, people are unable to understand the world and each 
other. Instead they just go on, placating it all with labels of their own 
invention.

In case of Stalin and Hitler, IMHO it's not quite like you write. The 
information (or lack of it) about their misdeeds was a subject of play, in 
which there were many parties involved. You can't just blame few 
journalists for it (even thou some of them had monetary interest in their 
work). And usually, there is also "folk" that follows their preachers. And 
preachers don't like to loose their followers. No surprise.

> > I wonder why anybody would want to change from self-hate to Islam-hate.
> 
> Is that true? Do you really wonder why some people think that might be a 
> rather good idea?

Yes, actually I do wonder. For me, self-hate should be resolved, perhaps 
with the aid of a specialist. Changing hate object is like changing drug. 
It doesn't help at all, one just drowns deeper in the shit. Oh, of course 
it may give impression of new life.

> >> who would be so anti-intellectual as to call the Nobel prize the 
> >> Megadeath prize? Well I can think of one group and it starts with the 
> >> letter "I". > > 
> > Care to give me example of members of "I" group expressing this point 
> > of view?
> 
> No, that is an exercise for the reader. Think real hard.

Oh, hopefully not this time. I need my "hard" for something else. But:

"megadeath prize" - 0 hits
+islam +nobel  - about 1.5 million hits

I've found this to be interesting:

http://blog.oup.com/2009/01/islam-nobel-prize/

There are names of the victims, but no names of the offenders. Sounds 
like, maybe, offenders were bandits with not much real political support? 

But, ok. Thanks for inspiring me. That was interesting (as I said far
above, I want to understand this "another world" better).

So, the only objection I have against Islam right now, is what I perceive 
as overraction in cases which don't really demand it. This, BTW, makes me 
interested in how much selfassured Muslims really are. Because 
overreaction is a sign of weakness or lack of confidence. I am very far 
from stating generalisations about their beliefs. And when I feel I come 
close to it, well, I have to watch myself.

Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.      **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home    **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...      **
**                                                                 **
** Tomasz Rola          mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com             **


From giulio at gmail.com  Fri Jul 30 17:49:48 2010
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2010 19:49:48 +0200
Subject: [ExI] TransVision 2010: New confirmed speakers,
	LAST DAY to register at the 	lowest rates
Message-ID: <AANLkTinCXBmRy=GS5T92GPHk06rohKNb901Di33ZvZx6@mail.gmail.com>

TransVision 2010: New confirmed speakers, LAST DAY to register at the
lowest rates

http://transvision2010.wordpress.com/2010/07/30/transvision-2010-new-confirmed-speakers-last-day-to-register-at-the-lowest-rate/

The following speakers will give talks at TransVision 2010, which
brings the number of confirmed speakers to 27. Other speakers will be
announced in a few days.

Pier Luigi Capucci is professor at the University of Urbino, at the
SUPSI ? University of Applied Sciences and Arts of Southern
Switzerland, at the NABA in Milan, and in other institutions. He has
been professor at the Universities of Rome ?La Sapienza?, Bologna and
Florence. Since 2008 he has been working as a supervisor in the M-Node
PhD Research Programme of the Planetary Collegium (University of
Plymouth). Capucci?s has published over 300 texts in books, magazines
and conference papers. His books include Realt? del virtuale (Reality
of the virtual, 1993), on virtual technologies and the relationships
between culture and sensorial representations; Il corpo tecnologico
(The technological body, 1994), on the impact of technologies on the
human body; and Arte e tecnologie (Art and technologies, 1996), about
arts, sciences and technologies.

Jamais Cascio is a San Francisco Bay Area-based writer and ethical
futurist specialising in design strategies and possible outcomes for
future scenarios. Selected by Foreign Policy magazine as one of the
Top 100 Global Thinkers of 2009, Cascio writes about the intersection
of emerging technologies, environmental dilemmas, and cultural
transformation, specializing in the design and creation of plausible
scenarios of the future. His work focuses on the importance of
long-term, systemic thinking, emphasizing the power of openness,
transparency and flexibility as catalysts for building a more
resilient society.

Antonio Saccoccio, born in Roma in 1974, is the founder of
Net.Futurismo. He is a composer, a writer, and a designer-producer of
multimedia performances and net.art. A student of Futurist history
(Marinetti, Papini, Boccioni, Russolo), he participated in 2009-10 in
several events dedicated to the first centenary of the Futurist
Manifesto, in Italy and abroad (Roma, Cagliari, Madrid, Torino,
Bremen, etc.). His fields of study are the relations between new media
and human sensibilities, the dissolution of traditional Art in
diffuse, evolved forms of thought and creativity, the new cognitive
paradigm and its impact on the education of new generations. Since
2010 he coordinates the Laboratory of Art and Comunication (LAC) of
AIT.

TransVision 2010 is a global transhumanist conference and community
convention, organized by several transhumanist activists, groups and
organizations, under the executive leadership of the Italian
Transhumanist Association (AIT) and with the collaboration of an
Advisory Board. The event will take place on October 22, 23 and 24,
2010 in Milan, Italy with many options for remote online access.

Register now

to take advantage of our special Early Bird rates (TOMORROW IS THE
LAST DAY TO REGISTER AT THE LOWEST RATES), post links to Twitter, your
blogs and websites, and add your name to the TransVision 2010 Facebook
page.



From thespike at satx.rr.com  Fri Jul 30 18:07:55 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2010 13:07:55 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Current Psychology
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimyDZokHLag7D6F+cTqXsDowZV63w3wkPVDJhvn@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTikFmQeXVXC25Qy1kr+Mp8QTXnSgyA71t7BxVPBm@mail.gmail.com>	<AANLkTinAhy7QO+Oe2S+D4-WBBkjMES1fLdn_DfwF70tk@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimyDZokHLag7D6F+cTqXsDowZV63w3wkPVDJhvn@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4C5314FB.9050602@satx.rr.com>

On 7/30/2010 8:25 AM, Patrick McLaren wrote:

> May I ask you to review the work of my father?
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niall_McLaren

This is the strangest and most panegyric (but intriguing) Wiki entry 
I've ever seen. I have to ask two questions:

Did Dr. McLaren, or perhaps you, write this entry?

Are his books self-published? That is, does Future Psychiatry Press have 
an independent existence?** (Not that there's anything wrong with 
publishing radical ideas oneself--there's a long history of it.) A 
sub-question: why are the books credited to Future Psychiatry Press in 
the body of the entry but to Ann Arbor, MI: Loving Healing Press in the 
footnotes?

**incidentally, http://futurepsychiatry.com/ goes to =>
"futurepsychiatry.com may be for sale. Buy this domain!"

This is a charming line:

"He likes to boast that he is the only psychiatrist in the world with 
dingoes in his garden."

Damien Broderick





From nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk  Fri Jul 30 17:49:50 2010
From: nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk (Tom Nowell)
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2010 17:49:50 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [ExI] medical marijuana (Dave Sill)
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1280491202.6176.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <820055.30578.qm@web27008.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

Without wanting to make it sound like I am a stoner, you haven't had the UK university experience without watching at least two or three of your coursemates make dubious cigarettes of rolling tobacco and either some mysterious herb or grinding something off a block of brown resin. It's apparently de rigeur for the hip student. In fact, I don't think I've ever seen someone make something to smoke *without* putting at least some tobacco in.

On a related studenty-drug-paraphernalia note, Max More mentioned that he thought the Shamen's "Phorever People" was transhumanist in tone - actually, it's 1990s neopsychedelia drawing on Leary and McKenna to present the idea that use of psychedelic drugs will lead to a state of enlightened people who will endure throughout eternity, or "Phorever people". (Indeed, they did a track called "Re-evolution" which is Terence McKenna's words spoken over their instrumental backing).

Tom


      



From wingcat at pacbell.net  Fri Jul 30 18:12:47 2010
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2010 11:12:47 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Religions and violence
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1007301352070.13150@tau.ceti.pl>
Message-ID: <917163.36651.qm@web81606.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

--- On Fri, 7/30/10, Tomasz Rola <rtomek at ceti.pl> wrote:
> On Thu, 29 Jul 2010, John Clark
> wrote:
> > And as I've already stated many times, whenever an
> Islamic apologist 
> > tries to illustrate the glories of that civilization
> they ALWAYS pick 
> > examples from the eleventh or twelfth century, they
> really have no 
> > choice, they certainly couldn't find anything modern
> to brag about. And 
> > by modern I mean the last few centuries.
> 
> John, I think you are awesomly unfair. You do care about
> being fair, don't 
> you? Yet you seem to judge a culture by its last 100 years?
> Maybe 50? This 
> is simply unfair. Unless 100 years is all that culture has.

While I disagree with John's branding of all Muslims for the
actions of some, I see his point here.  A culture is made up
of those people who are alive today - few if any of whom, at
this time, are older than 100 years of age, and most are far
younger than that.

It is entirely fair to judge a living people by their own
accomplishments.  Within the past few decades, there have
been some technological improvements, but there has also
been the mass imposition and acceptance of tyranny with
religious excuses.  Compare, for instance, life under Iran's
shah - a tinpot dictator installed as a byproduct of the
Cold War, but one who was modernizing the country - to what
the current regime has accomplished in its roughly 30 years
of rule.


From sabrina.ballard at hotmail.com  Fri Jul 30 16:40:42 2010
From: sabrina.ballard at hotmail.com (Sabrina Ballard)
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2010 12:40:42 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Current Psychology
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinAhy7QO+Oe2S+D4-WBBkjMES1fLdn_DfwF70tk@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTikFmQeXVXC25Qy1kr+Mp8QTXnSgyA71t7BxVPBm@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinAhy7QO+Oe2S+D4-WBBkjMES1fLdn_DfwF70tk@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimUV1iLnmJKQMcfD0cf9TpWbtXnsTY-6JELFYJY@mail.gmail.com>

>Clinical psychology at least in English-speaking countries is dominated by
Cognitive >Behavioural Therapy, while psychiatry is dominated by biological
psychiatry

Are those who work with CBT perhaps newer or concentrated in more urban
areas, or am I currently exercising a confirmation bias?

>A critical analysis of the logical status of modern psychiatry shows that
psychiatry has no >rational basis

So you believe that the mind is inherently rational? How does this hold with
the belief of two contradictory ideas? Isn't that inherently anti-rational?
Or am I misinterpreting what you mean when you say rational? As in the
investigations that psychiatry makes are irrational?
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100730/626e9dd5/attachment.html>

From mschock at berkeley.edu  Fri Jul 30 18:56:52 2010
From: mschock at berkeley.edu (Michael Schock)
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2010 11:56:52 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Current Psychology
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1280491202.6176.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.1.1280491202.6176.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <4C532074.3050702@berkeley.edu>

  Hi Sabrina, Stathis, et al.,

As Stathis mentioned, CBT is the dominating psychological discipline in 
the western world.  Positive Psychology, as an outgrowth of CBT, seems 
to be gaining traction in the west (and east: 
http://preview.tinyurl.com/2cnamzb).  There's a Harvard booklet on 
Positive Psychology that acts as a good starting-off point, actually.  
See http://preview.tinyurl.com/2eemetb.  Of course, there's always 
Wikipedia:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_psychology.  In 
essence, the western psychological community has spent too much time 
focusing on negative aspects of humanity (e.g. the DSM) whereas positive 
psychologists believe attention should be focused on positive traits and 
the enhancement thereof.  I speculate that Positive Psychology will work 
rather well as a psychological overlay upon any sort of collective 
intelligence that humans might develop, with a biological substrate or 
otherwise.  This is my first post!  Hope I'm replying according to 
protocol.  :)

-- 
Michael J. Schock
B.A. Physics | UC Berkeley | May 2010
mschock at berkeley.edu | mschock.info


> Message: 12
> Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2010 19:48:18 +1000
> From: Stathis Papaioannou<stathisp at gmail.com>
> To: ExI chat list<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Subject: Re: [ExI] Current Psychology
> Message-ID:
> 	<AANLkTinAhy7QO+Oe2S+D4-WBBkjMES1fLdn_DfwF70tk at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> 2010/7/30 Sabrina Ballard<sabrina.ballard at hotmail.com>:
>> The Western Psychological profession as a whole seems to be very out of
>> touch. They still cling to clearly outdated modes from Freud, while physical
>> medicine seems to be moving forward in its models. Is this my subjective
>> interpretation, or are any of you able to access information that would
>> confirm and/or deny this feeling.
>>
>> Is there some benefit to Western Psychology in clinging to the ideas of
>> Freud and Jung? Are other models too flawed to take their places?
> Clinical psychology at least in English-speaking countries is
> dominated by Cognitive Behavioural Therapy, while psychiatry is
> dominated by biological psychiatry, involving the use of physical
> therapies such as medication. There are still some psychoanalytic
> therapists who base their work on Freud and his disciples, but they
> are rarer.
>

-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: smime.p7s
Type: application/pkcs7-signature
Size: 3585 bytes
Desc: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100730/3d60c97f/attachment.bin>

From thespike at satx.rr.com  Fri Jul 30 17:20:36 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2010 12:20:36 -0500
Subject: [ExI] trying to convince a friend that nanotech is not so bad...
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimrnq_3K6-mnrQPk4GPODG4vj2N3ib69XHZNMaN@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1280491202.6176.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>	<285895.15939.qm@web114403.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<AANLkTimrnq_3K6-mnrQPk4GPODG4vj2N3ib69XHZNMaN@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4C5309E4.8080501@satx.rr.com>

On 7/30/2010 9:27 AM, John Grigg wrote:
> she is not entire
> close-minded, and I do concede that there are some dangers with the
> current state of nanotech.  Ironically, she yearns for a utopian
> world, and nanotech will be a key component of any such future
> society.  I plan to give her a good book on the subject, any
> suggestions?

What's wrong with Drexler's ENGINES OF CREATION for a starter? It's even 
free online.

http://e-drexler.com/p/06/00/EOC_Cover.html


From sabrina.ballard at hotmail.com  Fri Jul 30 20:34:05 2010
From: sabrina.ballard at hotmail.com (Sabrina Ballard)
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2010 16:34:05 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Current Psychology
In-Reply-To: <4C532074.3050702@berkeley.edu>
References: <mailman.1.1280491202.6176.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<4C532074.3050702@berkeley.edu>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinY-NzGh3Do5ZVBw_+F5jf31-LpkB3Dxpskfsqb@mail.gmail.com>

>  In essence, the western psychological community has spent too much time
> focusing on negative aspects of humanity (e.g. the DSM) whereas positive
> psychologists believe attention should be focused on positive traits and the
> enhancement thereof.


Yes I would agree that there is a tradition to focus on what is wrong with
an individual instead of working on enhancing the current "good" qualities.
I think that a change is perspective to balance this will be nessicary for
transhumanism. To both conquer the "bad" and enhance the "good". Those of
course being subjective.



>  I speculate that Positive Psychology will work rather well as a
> psychological overlay upon any sort of collective intelligence that humans
> might develop, with a biological substrate or otherwise.


Could you please elaborate on your point a bit? I think I know what you
mean, but I want to be certian. Thank you!


And yes, that is just fine for a first post. I know mine was worse and
completely unsupported.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100730/c53f21be/attachment.html>

From sparge at gmail.com  Fri Jul 30 20:37:29 2010
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2010 16:37:29 -0400
Subject: [ExI] medical marijuana (Dave Sill)
In-Reply-To: <820055.30578.qm@web27008.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.1.1280491202.6176.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org> 
	<820055.30578.qm@web27008.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinJgKPv33tUYt=8GDBdUeK2HpouVymr_yROia0D@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jul 30, 2010 at 1:49 PM, Tom Nowell <nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> Without wanting to make it sound like I am a stoner, you haven't had the UK university experience without watching at least two or three of your coursemates make dubious cigarettes of rolling tobacco and either some mysterious herb or grinding something off a block of brown resin. It's apparently de rigeur for the hip student. In fact, I don't think I've ever seen someone make something to smoke *without* putting at least some tobacco in.

It's definitely not common in the US and common in the UK and other
parts of Europe. See:

http://www.stonerforums.com/lounge/general-discussion/4387-mixing-tobacco-weed.html

-Dave



From rtomek at ceti.pl  Fri Jul 30 21:22:49 2010
From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola)
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2010 23:22:49 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] trying to convince a friend that nanotech is not so bad...
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimrnq_3K6-mnrQPk4GPODG4vj2N3ib69XHZNMaN@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1280491202.6176.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<285895.15939.qm@web114403.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<AANLkTimrnq_3K6-mnrQPk4GPODG4vj2N3ib69XHZNMaN@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1007302312470.13150@tau.ceti.pl>

On Fri, 30 Jul 2010, John Grigg wrote:

> Actually, it's a she, a very beautiful, young, and passionate woman...
>  Yes, this friend greatly distrusts corporate America and she even

Well, every sane person should distrust them...

> society.  I plan to give her a good book on the subject, any
> suggestions?

I was once extremely delighted by a "smart paper" concept, as described in 
"The Diamond Age" by Neal Stephenson. The book was a nice read, but it is 
s-f. I'm not sure if you are after such things.

Regards
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.      **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home    **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...      **
**                                                                 **
** Tomasz Rola          mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com             **


From rtomek at ceti.pl  Fri Jul 30 22:15:58 2010
From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola)
Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2010 00:15:58 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] Religions and violence
In-Reply-To: <917163.36651.qm@web81606.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <917163.36651.qm@web81606.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1007302333010.13150@tau.ceti.pl>

On Fri, 30 Jul 2010, Adrian Tymes wrote:

> --- On Fri, 7/30/10, Tomasz Rola <rtomek at ceti.pl> wrote:
> > On Thu, 29 Jul 2010, John Clark
> > wrote:
> > > And as I've already stated many times, whenever an
> > Islamic apologist 
> > > tries to illustrate the glories of that civilization
> > they ALWAYS pick 
> > > examples from the eleventh or twelfth century, they
> > really have no 
> > > choice, they certainly couldn't find anything modern
> > to brag about. And 
> > > by modern I mean the last few centuries.
> > 
> > John, I think you are awesomly unfair. You do care about
> > being fair, don't 
> > you? Yet you seem to judge a culture by its last 100 years?
> > Maybe 50? This 
> > is simply unfair. Unless 100 years is all that culture has.
> 
> While I disagree with John's branding of all Muslims for the
> actions of some, I see his point here.  A culture is made up
> of those people who are alive today - few if any of whom, at
> this time, are older than 100 years of age, and most are far
> younger than that.
> 
> It is entirely fair to judge a living people by their own
> accomplishments.

Of course. This is exactly what I tried to do in my previous post. I have 
judged contemporary Islam and came to some conclusions, which might have 
been wrong because this is very deep and broad subject and I have lots to 
learn about it.

>  Within the past few decades, there have
> been some technological improvements, but there has also
> been the mass imposition and acceptance of tyranny with
> religious excuses.

You know, I see those guys as very stretched. They have come from medieval 
age to piloting jets in a decade or so. I'm not sure, maybe I am 
exagerrating a bit, but there is some stress in all this.

>  Compare, for instance, life under Iran's
> shah - a tinpot dictator installed as a byproduct of the
> Cold War, but one who was modernizing the country - to what
> the current regime has accomplished in its roughly 30 years
> of rule.

I find Iran to be interesting subject of study. I understand that they 
have been much more affected by war than Iraq. The social structure has 
been diverted, there is a lot more of young (or reatively young) people 
(2/3 under 30yo, omg...). Youngs are questioning by definition and maybe a 
number of them connects postwar mess (there is always postwar mess) with 
their revolutionary rulers. Also, they may be reluctant to accept 
revelations "from above".

Under shah, reforms would have been probably slowed down. Now, with all 
those youngsters boiling in the pot, ayatollahs have to be cool. But, 
maybe I am too optimistic :-).

Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.      **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home    **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...      **
**                                                                 **
** Tomasz Rola          mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com             **


From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Sat Jul 31 00:17:33 2010
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2010 17:17:33 -0700
Subject: [ExI] trying to convince a friend that nanotech is not so bad...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1007302312470.13150@tau.ceti.pl>
References: <mailman.1.1280491202.6176.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<285895.15939.qm@web114403.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<AANLkTimrnq_3K6-mnrQPk4GPODG4vj2N3ib69XHZNMaN@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1007302312470.13150@tau.ceti.pl>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikT1eYnzyKT7fAdoPJqUeoMsYpvnS9Xfa=pjUVq@mail.gmail.com>

Damien Broderick wrote:
What's wrong with Drexler's ENGINES OF CREATION for a starter? It's
even free online.

http://e-drexler.com/p/06/00/EOC_Cover.html
>>>

Damien, thank you for the link!  I sent it to her, along with a
(hopefully) thoughtful message about the potential of nanotech to
transform humanity for the better.  She is intelligent and does not
have an automatic knee-jerk reaction against nanotech, and so I think
it may help her to get the big picture of what is at least possible.

My friend is part of an organization that protests nanotech and other
controversial technologies by sneaking into conferences, briefly
shouting protests at the top of their lungs, and then to make a really
lasting impression, quickly strip off *all* of their clothes, to
reveal slogans bodypainted onto their flesh! LOL

John  : )


On 7/30/10, Tomasz Rola <rtomek at ceti.pl> wrote:
> On Fri, 30 Jul 2010, John Grigg wrote:
>
>> Actually, it's a she, a very beautiful, young, and passionate woman...
>>  Yes, this friend greatly distrusts corporate America and she even
>
> Well, every sane person should distrust them...
>
>> society.  I plan to give her a good book on the subject, any
>> suggestions?
>
> I was once extremely delighted by a "smart paper" concept, as described in
> "The Diamond Age" by Neal Stephenson. The book was a nice read, but it is
> s-f. I'm not sure if you are after such things.
>
> Regards
> Tomasz Rola
>
> --
> ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.      **
> ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home    **
> ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...      **
> **                                                                 **
> ** Tomasz Rola          mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com             **
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>


From dynetis at hotmail.com  Fri Jul 30 23:10:08 2010
From: dynetis at hotmail.com (Jerome Renaux)
Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2010 01:10:08 +0200
Subject: [ExI]  RE: Current Psychology
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1280491202.6176.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.1.1280491202.6176.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <SNT133-w55EB8223EF5E613D77558EB7AA0@phx.gbl>


> The Western Psychological profession as a whole seems to be very out of
> touch. They still cling to clearly outdated modes from Freud, while physical
> medicine seems to be moving forward in its models.

Actually you maybe confusing psychology and psychoanalysis (the actual field of Freud, Jung...)
Scientific psychology hardly relies on Freudian theories anymore, or on any other author in that field. Psychology has absorbed a few concepts from psychoanalysis, but mostly altered them ib doing so. 
As an example, the idea of the subconscious as Freud meant it was completely left behind, and leaving the subconscious behind means leaving LOTS of stuffs behind. 
However, psychiatry (which is not to be confused with psycholgy either) still relies a lot on psychoanalytic concepts (at least in Europe), especially about neuroses. But as time passes, neurosciences are counterbalancing it.

These past three years I've been studying psychology in a european university. Indeed I had a few courses about psychoanalysis, but these were clearly distinct courses, not mixed with the others. And whenever I was told about the psychoanalytic point of view on something in other courses (say, usual example, about the role of dreams), I was cautiously reminded that it was one theory among others, and not the most favored one at all. Moreover, most of the time I was also exposed to neuropsychological alternatives getting much more consensus among the academical and clinical staff there.

No clearly, psychoanalytic memes are slowly disappearing from the psychological field. Neurosciences are blowing it away. 

(I apologize for the poor English.)

> 
> Message: 8
> Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 16:06:09 -0400
> From: Sabrina Ballard <sabrina.ballard at hotmail.com>
> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Subject: [ExI] Current Psychology
> Message-ID:
> 	<AANLkTikFmQeXVXC25Qy1kr+Mp8QTXnSgyA71t7BxVPBm at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> 
 Is this my subjective
> interpretation, or are any of you able to access information that would
> confirm and/or deny this feeling.
> 
> Is there some benefit to Western Psychology in clinging to the ideas of
> Freud and Jung? Are other models too flawed to take their places?
> 
> ~Ballard
 		 	   		  
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100731/bd7ac994/attachment.html>

From msd001 at gmail.com  Sat Jul 31 00:42:02 2010
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2010 20:42:02 -0400
Subject: [ExI] trying to convince a friend that nanotech is not so bad...
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikT1eYnzyKT7fAdoPJqUeoMsYpvnS9Xfa=pjUVq@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1280491202.6176.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<285895.15939.qm@web114403.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<AANLkTimrnq_3K6-mnrQPk4GPODG4vj2N3ib69XHZNMaN@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1007302312470.13150@tau.ceti.pl>
	<AANLkTikT1eYnzyKT7fAdoPJqUeoMsYpvnS9Xfa=pjUVq@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=mkBiUgz-GuCWR3SkN1yi5v7XfX0DbdvfUOrHr@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jul 30, 2010 at 8:17 PM, John Grigg <possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com> wrote:
> My friend is part of an organization that protests nanotech and other
> controversial technologies by sneaking into conferences, briefly
> shouting protests at the top of their lungs, and then to make a really
> lasting impression, quickly strip off *all* of their clothes, to
> reveal slogans bodypainted onto their flesh! LOL

Now i can understand the concern about breaking the skin-brain barrier
- probably a consideration for the ink they use to write their
anti-nano slogans.  :)

My first response was an emotional reaction to the perceived absurdity
of anti-nanotech thinking.  Now I have the perspective that if the
only problem in the world is nanotechnology, you should consider
yourself lucky that you are so well fed, watered, clothed and employed
that you have the luxury of concerning yourself with the potential
disasters of cutting edge science.  Many humans on this planet lack
essentials for survival, something nanotech may be able to positively
affect.


From rtomek at ceti.pl  Sat Jul 31 02:36:15 2010
From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola)
Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2010 04:36:15 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] Islamic culture (current) was Religions and violence
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikQ7R8G_LQpfndsrKQ6b1npzAufdxH=rtGjvqcX@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTikQ7R8G_LQpfndsrKQ6b1npzAufdxH=rtGjvqcX@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1007310104130.13150@tau.ceti.pl>

On Thu, 29 Jul 2010, Keith Henson wrote:

> As you point out, Islamic culture was more advanced than western
> culture at one time.  The question is not so much about Muslims being
> held back but why western culture (Jews included) shot ahead.  Clark
> calls this the great divergence and it is the major characteristic of
> the world since the industrial revolution.

Funny, I ask myself this question from time to time. Maybe I will find the 
answer in "Guns, Germs, and Steel: The Fates of Human Societies" by Jared 
Diamond (when I find some time for it). What he seems to suggest, is that 
both China and Islamic states underwent stagnation at some point.

Myself, I was trying to understand this. Islamic golden age seemingly ends 
with Mongol Invasions (13th century). In China, well, I have a problem to 
say. They had been very advanced already before Christ and were doing 
quite well for a thousand years (gas pipelines, naval rockets, maybe 
even pregnancy tests, wow). They continued to invent as long as to 17th 
century, gradually slowing down and I think somewhere after that they 
stagnated. Coincidentally, this was the time of the Qing Dynasty, the last 
before the establishment of the Republic in 1912. Last years of Qing were 
marked by extreme corruption, which I think must have started long before. 
During Qing, those were also the times of growing pressure from quickly
developing world powers (England, France, Germany, Russia, Japan, USA).

I guess (since I have yet to read it) Jared Diamond suggests that 
geographic expansion and strong rivalisation between European states came 
at the right time and coincided with development of strong governments, 
supported with trade and growing industry. It also helped a lot, that 
first discoverers served as biological weapons, wiping out native social 
structures (in Americas) before they could try to adapt to technology and 
new ideas. I was quite surprised when I have learned about advanced social 
organisms of North American Indians and Amazonians. They had cities too, 
but abandonded them when their cultures disintegrated after massive deaths 
caused by diseases.

Obviously, nobody could have stopped us. And so we succeeded...

> >> I could not agree with you more, although the same ideas could be
> >> expressed more concisely as "Islamic culture sucks".
> 
> > As has been already stated, Islamic culture saved a lot of ancient (in a
> > sense of ancient Greece and Rome) wisdom for us. True, there was also
[...]
> > flying apparatus on occassion. In their finest years, Islamic scientists
> > and thinkers did whatever one would expect from any other enlightened
> > people.
> 
> So what caused the divergence that left them in the dust?
> 
> I don't know if it was a cause or an effect, but the Islamic world was
> very slow to accept printing.
> 
> "In the Islamic community--seat of scientific progress from 750 to
> 1100 AD--great Islamic empires arose about the time of the printing
> press and effectively suppressed that technology until the nineteenth
> century, when it did transform the culture. Robinson speculates that
> printing threatened the fundamental oral transmission of the Quran,
> delaying introduction of the printing press into Islamic culture for
> four centuries.[79]
> 
> [79] Francis Robinson, "Technology and Religious Change: Islam and the
> Impact of Print," Modern Asian Studies (1993), Vol. 27, No. 1, pp.
> 229-251.
> 
> http://www.acm.org/ubiquity/views/j_dewar_1.html
> 
> And even when they did, the number of books printed was a very small
> fraction of the massive output of western culture.

Wow, fascinating.

I have found this:

"The ink of the scholar is more holy than the blood of martyrs"

[ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Golden_Age ]

and this:

"The oldest surviving Qur'an printed with movable type was produced in 
Venice in 1537/1538. It seems to have been prepared for sale in the 
Ottoman empire, where all movable type printing using Arabic characters 
had been forbidden in 1485. This decree was reversed in 1588, but there 
remained strong resistance to adopting movable type printing for any 
subjects, let alone the Qur'an, until the late 19th century. This seems to 
have been partly from opposition by the large profession of copyists, and 
for aesthetic reasons, and fear of mistakes in the text.[97]Catherine the 
Great of Russia sponsored a printing of the Qur'an in 1787. This was 
followed by editions from Kazan (1828), Persia (1833) and Istanbul 
(1877).[98]"

[ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qur'an ]

So, it seems they would rather copy a book than print it. But it should be 
noted that their reaction to printing took place long after the fall of 
Baghdad [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Baghdad_(1258) ] which 
marks the fall of the whole culture. The Gutenberg Revolution started 
around 1450. I think it was easier for us, because our fonts only had 26 
or so pieces, while Chinese had thousands... Perhaps Arabs could adapt the 
movable type technique, but by the time it started to get out of China, 
their cultural centres were wiped out. In such situation, they were more 
interested in traditional way, perhaps not really for traditions sake but 
more because of economic interests of some groups.

On this page [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Golden_Age ], they 
state:

"By the 10th century, Cordoba had 700 mosques, 60,000 palaces, and 70 
libraries, the largest of which had 600,000 books. In the whole 
al-Andalus, 60,000 treatises, poems, polemics and compilations were 
published each year.[20] The library of Cairo had two million books,[21] 
while the library of Tripoli is said to have had as many as three million 
books before it was destroyed by Crusaders."

So the number of printed books may have something to do with this overall 
demise of theirs. They had a lot of titles that had been lost (read: 
destroyed by Mongols and other such cultural bandits). Seems like they 
were unable to recover. Ottomans, who took over from Arabs, well they had 
been different folk. I think the climate for cultural and scientific 
growth slowly worsened as Turks engaged in more and more lost wars (like, 
rivalry with growing Russia) and their elites lost interest of external 
world. They could have sent few ships to Labrador once, but after that - 
not guts and no glory. Ironically, I think their best period was just 
around conquest of Byzantium.

But I am no expert at all (and I have lots to learn). So this is just what 
seems plausible to me (in this particular moment).

> Gregory Clark would (I think) make a case that the
> Malthusian/Darwinian selection process with downward social mobility
> caused the psychological traits behind literacy/numeracy to become the
> population norms in large areas of Europe where they did not in the
> huge swath of Islamic culture (or any other culture in the world I
> should add).  Why I don't know.  It would be worth while (if there are
> records) to do a study similar to the one Dr. Clark did with English
> records to see if some segments of the Arab/Islamic population did
> better genetically.

I think some clues can be gained from abovementioned page on Golden Age. 
It says:

"The early Islamic Empire also had the highest literacy rates among 
pre-modern societies, alongside the city of classical Athens in the 4th 
century BC,[76] and later, China after the introduction of printing from 
the 10th century."

It also says, that Islamic scholars as a group had life expectancy as 
high as 75 years while the mean was somewhere above 35 years. If you are 
interested, you can read about their educational system of maktab and 
madrasah schools. Impressing. I am somehow prone to believe that every 
Muslim is expected to at least know how to read his Qur'an book, so this 
affects literacy rate if I am right.

Putting Muslims aside, I've heard once that in former Tibet every male 
child was to go to monastery for some period of time. During this time, as 
a monk novice, boy was learning prayers and also reading and writing. I am 
not sure about girls.

I don't know what are Dr Clark's claims, but I would be far from 
suggesting that Western Europe was the first place that experienced the 
phenomenons of increased literacy...

> Of course it is even more of a question why the Chinese did so poorly
> for so long after being considerably ahead of western culture.  And
> why are they doing so well now?

Why, it seems to me they did ok for remarkably long time:

[ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_inventions ]

However, I am a bit reluctant to accept their current success as such. 
While economically it is looking great, I have the impression of their 
looming internal problems of many kinds. Once again, I'm no expert.

Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.      **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home    **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...      **
**                                                                 **
** Tomasz Rola          mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com             **


From thespike at satx.rr.com  Sat Jul 31 02:49:30 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2010 21:49:30 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Islamic culture (current) was Religions and violence
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1007310104130.13150@tau.ceti.pl>
References: <AANLkTikQ7R8G_LQpfndsrKQ6b1npzAufdxH=rtGjvqcX@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1007310104130.13150@tau.ceti.pl>
Message-ID: <4C538F3A.4040004@satx.rr.com>

On 7/30/2010 9:36 PM, Tomasz Rola wrote:

> Once again, I'm no expert.
>
> Regards,
> Tomasz Rola

Terrific recent posts, Tomasz. And your cautious approach in this 
context is admirable.

Damien Broderick


From moulton at moulton.com  Sat Jul 31 03:11:11 2010
From: moulton at moulton.com (Fred C. Moulton)
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2010 20:11:11 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Religions and violence
In-Reply-To: <917163.36651.qm@web81606.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <917163.36651.qm@web81606.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1280545871.26076.757.camel@desktop-linux>

On Fri, 2010-07-30 at 11:12 -0700, Adrian Tymes wrote:

> Compare, for instance, life under Iran's
> shah - a tinpot dictator installed as a byproduct of the
> Cold War, but one who was modernizing the country - to what
> the current regime has accomplished in its roughly 30 years
> of rule.

Going off on this tangent of trying to link a religion (in this case
Islam) to a particular country (in this case Iran) without considering
all of the other factors such as history, sanctions and the rest is just
ludicrous.  Certainly the current rulers in Iran are repressive.  And
we have all heard the reports of the Revolutionary Guard of Iran taking
over a large part of the Iranian economy.  But one needs to ask oneself
why the Revolutionary Guard came into power.  And why the opposition the
Shah was centered in the mosques which lead to the religious leaders
being perceived as the forces fighting against the tyranny of the Shah.
And remember that the government of the USA was involved in putting the
Shah in place and overthrowing Mosaddegh.  Mosaddegh a Muslim who was
educated in Europe and who appears to have been a relative moderate in
religion.  Iran might not be a perfect place right now but at least we
need to understand the history and background and avoid making erroneous
comparisons.

Secretary of State Madeleine Albright is reported to have made the
following statement in March 2000: "The Eisenhower administration
believed its actions were justified for strategic reasons. But the coup
was clearly a setback for Iran's political development and it is easy to
see now why many Iranians continue to resent this intervention by
America."

Iran serves not so much as a negative example concerning Islam instead
the situation in Iran serves as yet an example of the government of the
USA running around finding ever more situations in which to meddle and
usually make worse.  From Central America to Viet Nam to Iran to Iraq
and other places too numerous to list here we see a trail of
destruction, greed, arrogance and mendacity by the government of the
USA.

Fred




From rtomek at ceti.pl  Sat Jul 31 03:26:34 2010
From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola)
Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2010 05:26:34 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] Islamic culture (current) was Religions and violence
In-Reply-To: <4C538F3A.4040004@satx.rr.com>
References: <AANLkTikQ7R8G_LQpfndsrKQ6b1npzAufdxH=rtGjvqcX@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1007310104130.13150@tau.ceti.pl>
	<4C538F3A.4040004@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1007310525530.13150@tau.ceti.pl>

On Fri, 30 Jul 2010, Damien Broderick wrote:

> On 7/30/2010 9:36 PM, Tomasz Rola wrote:
> 
> > Once again, I'm no expert.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Tomasz Rola
> 
> Terrific recent posts, Tomasz. And your cautious approach in this context is
> admirable.
> 
> Damien Broderick

Wow, thanks :-)

Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.      **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home    **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...      **
**                                                                 **
** Tomasz Rola          mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com             **


From sabrina.ballard at hotmail.com  Sat Jul 31 04:43:03 2010
From: sabrina.ballard at hotmail.com (Sabrina Ballard)
Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2010 00:43:03 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Current Psychology
In-Reply-To: <SNT133-w55EB8223EF5E613D77558EB7AA0@phx.gbl>
References: <mailman.1.1280491202.6176.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<SNT133-w55EB8223EF5E613D77558EB7AA0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinRt4QN_40Qq1Wbazja4wkJwmBohXjhUjH6pWdH@mail.gmail.com>

Your English is quite good Jerome, don't worry.

Thank you for your input everyone. The objective data has upseated my
subjective data, and I'm glad for it! It's just been my particular
string of luck I suppose.

Thank you everyone.


From dgreer_68 at hotmail.com  Sat Jul 31 11:31:12 2010
From: dgreer_68 at hotmail.com (darren shawn greer)
Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2010 07:31:12 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Islamic culture (current) was Religions and violence
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1007310104130.13150@tau.ceti.pl>
References: <AANLkTikQ7R8G_LQpfndsrKQ6b1npzAufdxH=rtGjvqcX@mail.gmail.com>,
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1007310104130.13150@tau.ceti.pl>
Message-ID: <COL112-W21A3B78B4A1118FDB10CAB9DAB0@phx.gbl>




In China, well, I have a problem to

> say. They had been very advanced
already before Christ and were doing

> quite well for a thousand years
(gas pipelines, naval rockets, maybe

> even pregnancy tests, wow). They
continued to invent as long as to 17th

> century, gradually slowing down and
I think somewhere after that they

> stagnated.

?

?

?

?

Peter Watson in "A Terrible Beauty"
suggests it has something to do with the decline of Confucianism as the central
organizing principle of their society.

?

?

I was quite surprised when I have
learned about advanced social

> organisms of North American Indians
and Amazonians. They had cities too,

> but abandoned them?

?

The best book I have read on this
subject is Ronald White's "Stolen Continents." He estimates that the
total population of the pre-Columbian Americas, both North and South, was 54
million. By the end of the 16th century this was reduced by 80 percent due to
disease and colonial wars. 

?

?

> I don't know what are Dr Clark's
claims, but I would be far from

> suggesting that Western Europe was
the first place that experienced the

> phenomenons of increased
literacy...

?

European recorded history as a whole
makes no mention of the super-nova of 1054, which was visible in the night sky
for over two years. Practically every other northern hemisphere culture recorded the event,
including the North American indigenous population and Arab culture
(albeit briefly.) Current theories suggest that the church suppressed the
information, for whatever reason. In his novel "Space" James Michener
says that it is not that the times are dark, but that people aren't looking at
the light.
> But I am no expert at all (and I have lots to learn)

?

?

?

I'm no expert on Islamic culture either
(especially apparent after reading some of the posts by people who are far more
versed in the subject than I will likely ever be.) But I do know that it is a
mistake to confuse Arabic culture with Islamic culture too much. As has been
frequently mentioned here, Arabic culture was in full flower for a thousand
years before Islam arrived on the scene. It is possible that Islam is the main
reason for the decline of Arab culture and learning, just as the cult of
Christianity contributed to the decline of the Roman Empire. As far as I'm
concerned, both Islam and Christianity are personality cults gone viral, and need
to suppress learning and knowledge, or at least try, in order to enforce the
dogma that theirs is the one true God and their prophets absolutely correct in
every particular.?

?

Religions that don?t have this feature,
(and that have a blood-bond, or are welded together in their beliefs by some
ethnic, regional or historic commonality that discourages or is ambivalent to conversion) are less
violent and fervent. 

?

The only bright side to Islamic and
Christian fundamentalism that I can see is that growing extremism seems to
indicate cultural decline. Another is that no ayatollah has issued a fatwa
against Jeff Dunham and his hilarious puppet Ahkmed, the dead terrorist,

?

"Silence! I kill you!"

?

?

Cheers,

?

Darren?







----------------------------------------
> Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2010 04:36:15 +0200
> From: rtomek at ceti.pl
> To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> CC: rtomek at ceti.pl
> Subject: Re: [ExI] Islamic culture (current) was Religions and violence
>
> On Thu, 29 Jul 2010, Keith Henson wrote:
>
>> As you point out, Islamic culture was more advanced than western
>> culture at one time. The question is not so much about Muslims being
>> held back but why western culture (Jews included) shot ahead. Clark
>> calls this the great divergence and it is the major characteristic of
>> the world since the industrial revolution.
>
> Funny, I ask myself this question from time to time. Maybe I will find the
> answer in "Guns, Germs, and Steel: The Fates of Human Societies" by Jared
> Diamond (when I find some time for it). What he seems to suggest, is that
> both China and Islamic states underwent stagnation at some point.
>
> Myself, I was trying to understand this. Islamic golden age seemingly ends
> with Mongol Invasions (13th century). In China, well, I have a problem to
> say. They had been very advanced already before Christ and were doing
> quite well for a thousand years (gas pipelines, naval rockets, maybe
> even pregnancy tests, wow). They continued to invent as long as to 17th
> century, gradually slowing down and I think somewhere after that they
> stagnated. Coincidentally, this was the time of the Qing Dynasty, the last
> before the establishment of the Republic in 1912. Last years of Qing were
> marked by extreme corruption, which I think must have started long before.
> During Qing, those were also the times of growing pressure from quickly
> developing world powers (England, France, Germany, Russia, Japan, USA).
>
> I guess (since I have yet to read it) Jared Diamond suggests that
> geographic expansion and strong rivalisation between European states came
> at the right time and coincided with development of strong governments,
> supported with trade and growing industry. It also helped a lot, that
> first discoverers served as biological weapons, wiping out native social
> structures (in Americas) before they could try to adapt to technology and
> new ideas. I was quite surprised when I have learned about advanced social
> organisms of North American Indians and Amazonians. They had cities too,
> but abandonded them when their cultures disintegrated after massive deaths
> caused by diseases.
>
> Obviously, nobody could have stopped us. And so we succeeded...
>
>>>> I could not agree with you more, although the same ideas could be
>>>> expressed more concisely as "Islamic culture sucks".
>>
>>> As has been already stated, Islamic culture saved a lot of ancient (in a
>>> sense of ancient Greece and Rome) wisdom for us. True, there was also
> [...]
>>> flying apparatus on occassion. In their finest years, Islamic scientists
>>> and thinkers did whatever one would expect from any other enlightened
>>> people.
>>
>> So what caused the divergence that left them in the dust?
>>
>> I don't know if it was a cause or an effect, but the Islamic world was
>> very slow to accept printing.
>>
>> "In the Islamic community--seat of scientific progress from 750 to
>> 1100 AD--great Islamic empires arose about the time of the printing
>> press and effectively suppressed that technology until the nineteenth
>> century, when it did transform the culture. Robinson speculates that
>> printing threatened the fundamental oral transmission of the Quran,
>> delaying introduction of the printing press into Islamic culture for
>> four centuries.[79]
>>
>> [79] Francis Robinson, "Technology and Religious Change: Islam and the
>> Impact of Print," Modern Asian Studies (1993), Vol. 27, No. 1, pp.
>> 229-251.
>>
>> http://www.acm.org/ubiquity/views/j_dewar_1.html
>>
>> And even when they did, the number of books printed was a very small
>> fraction of the massive output of western culture.
>
> Wow, fascinating.
>
> I have found this:
>
> "The ink of the scholar is more holy than the blood of martyrs"
>
> [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Golden_Age ]
>
> and this:
>
> "The oldest surviving Qur'an printed with movable type was produced in
> Venice in 1537/1538. It seems to have been prepared for sale in the
> Ottoman empire, where all movable type printing using Arabic characters
> had been forbidden in 1485. This decree was reversed in 1588, but there
> remained strong resistance to adopting movable type printing for any
> subjects, let alone the Qur'an, until the late 19th century. This seems to
> have been partly from opposition by the large profession of copyists, and
> for aesthetic reasons, and fear of mistakes in the text.[97]Catherine the
> Great of Russia sponsored a printing of the Qur'an in 1787. This was
> followed by editions from Kazan (1828), Persia (1833) and Istanbul
> (1877).[98]"
>
> [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qur'an ]
>
> So, it seems they would rather copy a book than print it. But it should be
> noted that their reaction to printing took place long after the fall of
> Baghdad [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Baghdad_(1258) ] which
> marks the fall of the whole culture. The Gutenberg Revolution started
> around 1450. I think it was easier for us, because our fonts only had 26
> or so pieces, while Chinese had thousands... Perhaps Arabs could adapt the
> movable type technique, but by the time it started to get out of China,
> their cultural centres were wiped out. In such situation, they were more
> interested in traditional way, perhaps not really for traditions sake but
> more because of economic interests of some groups.
>
> On this page [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Golden_Age ], they
> state:
>
> "By the 10th century, Cordoba had 700 mosques, 60,000 palaces, and 70
> libraries, the largest of which had 600,000 books. In the whole
> al-Andalus, 60,000 treatises, poems, polemics and compilations were
> published each year.[20] The library of Cairo had two million books,[21]
> while the library of Tripoli is said to have had as many as three million
> books before it was destroyed by Crusaders."
>
> So the number of printed books may have something to do with this overall
> demise of theirs. They had a lot of titles that had been lost (read:
> destroyed by Mongols and other such cultural bandits). Seems like they
> were unable to recover. Ottomans, who took over from Arabs, well they had
> been different folk. I think the climate for cultural and scientific
> growth slowly worsened as Turks engaged in more and more lost wars (like,
> rivalry with growing Russia) and their elites lost interest of external
> world. They could have sent few ships to Labrador once, but after that -
> not guts and no glory. Ironically, I think their best period was just
> around conquest of Byzantium.
>
> But I am no expert at all (and I have lots to learn). So this is just what
> seems plausible to me (in this particular moment).
>
>> Gregory Clark would (I think) make a case that the
>> Malthusian/Darwinian selection process with downward social mobility
>> caused the psychological traits behind literacy/numeracy to become the
>> population norms in large areas of Europe where they did not in the
>> huge swath of Islamic culture (or any other culture in the world I
>> should add). Why I don't know. It would be worth while (if there are
>> records) to do a study similar to the one Dr. Clark did with English
>> records to see if some segments of the Arab/Islamic population did
>> better genetically.
>
> I think some clues can be gained from abovementioned page on Golden Age.
> It says:
>
> "The early Islamic Empire also had the highest literacy rates among
> pre-modern societies, alongside the city of classical Athens in the 4th
> century BC,[76] and later, China after the introduction of printing from
> the 10th century."
>
> It also says, that Islamic scholars as a group had life expectancy as
> high as 75 years while the mean was somewhere above 35 years. If you are
> interested, you can read about their educational system of maktab and
> madrasah schools. Impressing. I am somehow prone to believe that every
> Muslim is expected to at least know how to read his Qur'an book, so this
> affects literacy rate if I am right.
>
> Putting Muslims aside, I've heard once that in former Tibet every male
> child was to go to monastery for some period of time. During this time, as
> a monk novice, boy was learning prayers and also reading and writing. I am
> not sure about girls.
>
> I don't know what are Dr Clark's claims, but I would be far from
> suggesting that Western Europe was the first place that experienced the
> phenomenons of increased literacy...
>
>> Of course it is even more of a question why the Chinese did so poorly
>> for so long after being considerably ahead of western culture. And
>> why are they doing so well now?
>
> Why, it seems to me they did ok for remarkably long time:
>
> [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_inventions ]
>
> However, I am a bit reluctant to accept their current success as such.
> While economically it is looking great, I have the impression of their
> looming internal problems of many kinds. Once again, I'm no expert.
>
> Regards,
> Tomasz Rola
>
> --
> ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. **
> ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home **
> ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... **
> ** **
> ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com **
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
 		 	   		  


From max at maxmore.com  Sat Jul 31 16:27:17 2010
From: max at maxmore.com (Max More)
Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2010 11:27:17 -0500
Subject: [ExI] FDA lifts hold on embryonic stem cell trial
Message-ID: <201007311627.o6VGRS70011571@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

Would be very good if the first trials work out without problems.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38490858/ns/health-more_health_news/



From jonkc at bellsouth.net  Sat Jul 31 17:29:36 2010
From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John Clark)
Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2010 13:29:36 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Religions and violence
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1007301352070.13150@tau.ceti.pl>
References: <201007211513.o6LFDcxv019859@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<20100721194356.GC23426@ofb.net>
	<4135667C-A61C-44E5-8477-04E6BA1FDC3A@bellsouth.net>
	<AANLkTimiTa1WFDUfRmwx3PWJKbSpPkLU_RxQeNNdMDHz@mail.gmail.com>
	<B502B0B7-EBC6-472C-B377-7D40732EF526@bellsouth.net>
	<AANLkTikFV+LFy9mwFB_XLHgHgCK0sH4L-hvPqyekzNY7@mail.gmail.com>
	<EF03FE45-EEC3-418C-ABF4-5C3C5BA99840@bellsouth.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1007290343110.10686@tau.ceti.pl>
	<14164DAE-A3A7-4D57-A060-7B815B09FD12@bellsouth.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1007301352070.13150@tau.ceti.pl>
Message-ID: <1F3511E8-AFFE-4771-809E-AB423A6593B3@bellsouth.net>

On Jul 30, 2010, at 1:43 PM, Tomasz Rola wrote:
>> 
> John, I think you are awesomly unfair.

Well at least I'm awesome.

> you seem to judge a culture by its last 100 years? Maybe 50? This 
> is simply unfair.

If you are a stupid and cruel person I would not think more highly of you if I discovered that your great great great great great grandfather was brilliant and kind.

>  there is much potential in Islam to improve and become acceptable in modern times.

I agree, in fact Islam has more potential for improvement than most groups because almost any change would be an improvement. If Islam really wants to improve the first thing it should do is abandon religion.

> I don't believe that Islam is a monolith

Again I pretty much agree, they constantly fight among themselves over trivialities, certainly Muslims have killed more Muslims than non-Muslims have. But it is near monolithic in thinking we should go back to the values of the eleventh century, although some more progressive elements think the fifteenth century will do. 

>  I try to understand the other side.

That is an excellent idea, you should always know your enemy; but remember, understanding why somebody is a monster does not make him one bit less a monster.

> Also, I find it interesting that in one sentence you condemn some actions 
> taken by one Muslim group on the other, and in the next sentence you 
> condemn the whole Islam as such.

Let me ask you one question, do you condemn the whole Nazi group?

> I post a link to article about treatment of Nobel laureates by some Muslim groups

I assume you mean Muslim Nobel laureates, there were 7 not 6 as I said before, I forgot the 2006 prize for economics. Among those 7 are political hack Anwar Sadat, terrorist Yasser Arafat, and writer Naguib Mahfouz who's novel is banned in most of the Islamic world for blasphemy. 

> When Y1 began, colonial powers popped out on the map in most places where there are Islamic countries today, and [...] 

And I don't care!! It's irrelevant, explaining why Islam is a dysfunctional culture does not make it one bit less dysfunctional.

> I would say, they were mostly successful - compared to countries like Congo

Wow what a ringing endorsement. 

> What is interesting, is that guys were able to come into building atomic technology so fast 

Yes, the fact that Pakistan has the bomb is interesting, in the way a 44 magnum held to your head is interesting.

> The case of ma'am Ayaan Hirsi Ali has been already covered by someone who 
> obviously knows more about her than I. I am sorry to hear she is in 
> danger. Her biogram in wikipedia reveals that she is very interesting 
> persona. Yet again, it is the same "crackpot religion" in Somalia and in Iran.

Ayaan Hirsi Ali is indeed a remarkable and admirable human being, but she is not a Muslim, she once was but not anymore, she has publicly disavowed it and said she is an atheist. That's why the followers of that religion who's name means peace wants to disembowel her. 

> I understand that Islam - when it is let to rule the country - makes life harsh for a lot of people.

One of the great understatements of all time.

> it was their own Iranian people who made their Islamic Revolution.

If true that would undermine your assertion that it is only a tiny minority of Muslims who are troglodytes. 
 
> Changing hate object is like changing drug. It doesn't help at all

You seem to be saying hate is never appropriate, but it's impossible never to hate and I don't believe it's desirable even to try. If hate were a truly useless emotion its hard to understand why Evolution preserved it for hundreds of millions of years. Some things are just hateful. 

This last part is aimed at the apologists for all religions not just Islam, when they preach about the wonderful things these organizations have done they always ignore one little fact, it's all based on a colossal lie. Doesn't the truth count for something? 

By the way, on the front page of today's New York Times is an article about the Ground Zero Mosque: 

 http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/31/nyregion/31mosque.html?_r=1&ref=global-home

   John K Clark



-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20100731/23d4196d/attachment.html>

From rtomek at ceti.pl  Sat Jul 31 18:27:42 2010
From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola)
Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2010 20:27:42 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] Islamic culture (current) was Religions and violence
In-Reply-To: <COL112-W21A3B78B4A1118FDB10CAB9DAB0@phx.gbl>
References: <AANLkTikQ7R8G_LQpfndsrKQ6b1npzAufdxH=rtGjvqcX@mail.gmail.com>,
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1007310104130.13150@tau.ceti.pl>
	<COL112-W21A3B78B4A1118FDB10CAB9DAB0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1007311713500.31583@tau.ceti.pl>

On Sat, 31 Jul 2010, darren shawn greer wrote:

> In China, well, I have a problem to
> 
> > say. They had been very advanced
> already before Christ and were doing
> 
> Peter Watson in "A Terrible Beauty"
> suggests it has something to do with the decline of Confucianism as the central
> organizing principle of their society.

I've never linked those two things, but this sounds very likable.

> I was quite surprised when I have
> learned about advanced social
> > organisms of North American Indians
> and Amazonians. They had cities too,
> > but abandoned them?
> 
> The best book I have read on this
> subject is Ronald White's "Stolen Continents." He estimates that the
> total population of the pre-Columbian Americas, both North and South, was 54
> million. By the end of the 16th century this was reduced by 80 percent due to
> disease and colonial wars. 

Terrible. So much about contacting Aliens... Especially if we have common 
ancestors (which would have been even more terrifying).

> European recorded history as a whole
> makes no mention of the super-nova of 1054, which was visible in the night sky
> for over two years. Practically every other northern hemisphere culture recorded the event,
> including the North American indigenous population and Arab culture
> (albeit briefly.) Current theories suggest that the church suppressed the
> information, for whatever reason. In his novel "Space" James Michener
> says that it is not that the times are dark, but that people aren't looking at
> the light.

Yes, this is intriguing. I myself doubt a little the Church' ability to 
supress information to such extent. I mean, you know, everybody could see 
it. I cannot think of rational reason why not. Books could have been read 
in the night in its light. Even if noone have read books at the time, they 
were expected to observe things like "we don't have to light up the 
candle" or "the freaking light disturbs my sleep" or "animals are 
constantly upset, I wonder why"...

And at that time, not whole Europe was equally put under Churches 
influence. From my perspective, Rome was far, far away. We were, at a 
time, 88 years after christianisation (Baptism of Poland = 966 AD). I 
doubt there was enough strength in Church to tell people here what they 
should or shouldn't talk about (there were still a rebelious pagan 
elements hiding here and there). Especially that conflicts betweem Church 
and secular leaders were not uncommon (and they could be very hard for 
the looser).

And 50 years earlier, SN1006 had been observed and described by some Swiss 
monks (and usual suspects too, like Chinese, Arabs etc)...
 [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SN_1006 ]

On the other hand, it is written that "Over a span of about 2,000 years, 
Chinese astronomers recorded a total of twenty such candidate events, 
including later explosions noted by Islamic, European, and possibly Indian 
and other observers."

 [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_supernova_observation ]

So this kind of event wasn't anything unheard of. While the mean between 
observations is 100 years, i.e. 5 generations, they were quite frequent 
anyway to enter folklore. Or so I think. I mean, common, a bunch of 
illiterate warlords sails to America and what we have now, a saga with 
names, description of events that comes along archeological findings. It 
would be interesting to investigate myths from other cultures (American 
Indians, seemingly, had something to say).

Comets have been observed and recorded, however. Halley Comet once even 
made it to [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayeux_Tapestry ]. BTW, did it 
ever made it to Playboy? At least once, in Ray Bradbury's essay in Jan, 
1979 issue (p. 170)... Supernovae were not as lucky, however.

[ 
http://www.wonderclub.com/magazines/adult_magazine_single_page.php?magid=playboy&u=PLBOY197901 
]

Maybe we simply have a real problem with understanding the mindset of 
pre-reneisance Europeans. Or any mindset that is far enough from 
science-and-inquiry-in-theory-at-least-oriented life. On the other hand, 
if we look at history of acceptance of meteors' cosmic origin...

"Although meteors have been known since ancient times, they were not known 
to be an astronomical phenomenon until early in the 19th century. Prior to 
that, they were seen in the West as an atmospheric phenomenon, like 
lightning, and were not connected with strange stories of rocks falling 
from the sky. Thomas Jefferson wrote "I would more easily believe that (a) 
Yankee professor would lie than that stones would fall from heaven."[28] 
He was referring to Yale chemistry professor Benjamin Silliman' 
investigation of an 1807 meteorite that fell in Weston, Connecticut.[28] 
Silliman believed the meteor had a cosmic origin, but meteors did not 
attract much attention from astronomers until the spectacular meteor storm 
of November 1833.[29] People all across the eastern United States saw 
thousands of meteors, radiating from a single point in the sky. Astute 
observers noticed that the radiant, as the point is now called, moved with 
the stars, staying in the constellation Leo.[30]"

[ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meteoroid ]

So, maybe we are not so inquiring as we would like to believe, and quite 
the contrary - we are very fixed on what we want to observe.

BTW, from this page [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1054 ], it seems 12 
days after SN1054 went on, Eastern and Western Churches leaders 
excommunicated each other. Perhaps they got irritated... Actually it was 
pope's emissary that went to Constantinople to do it. I wonder how long 
did such travel take in those days. 

BTW2, I wonder if there are any mentions of all this in Vatican archives. 
Alas, I think they are mostly closed and definitely not on google :-). 
Besides, yes indeed there seems to have been a school of thinking in 
Church, saying that heavens were static. And mentioning that stars could 
be like suns with their own planets was no-no. However, Church had many 
problems on its head, disobeying kings, warring heretics. Times were, 
uhuh, "revolutionary" a bit... But I didn't explore them too deeply.

BTW3. From what I've heard, parchment was erasable. So, maybe the records 
have been valued low, erased and pages used to record something better 
(like recipes or maybe illuminated Bible). It was very precious material, 
asking for reuse.

> But I do know that it is a
> mistake to confuse Arabic culture with Islamic culture too much. As has been
> frequently mentioned here, Arabic culture was in full flower for a thousand
> years before Islam arrived on the scene. It is possible that Islam is the main
> reason for the decline of Arab culture and learning, just as the cult of
> Christianity contributed to the decline of the Roman Empire. As far as I'm
> concerned, both Islam and Christianity are personality cults gone viral, and need
> to suppress learning and knowledge, or at least try, in order to enforce the
> dogma that theirs is the one true God and their prophets absolutely correct in
> every particular.?

Very interesting observations, IMHO. As of viral philosophies, I would say 
in a healthy organisms most viruses are kept in check. Only after organism 
is weakened sufficiently, they are able to take over. I think Rome was 
already sliding down - corrupt leaders, coup d'etats and lack of will to do 
anything like significant reforms. From what I have heard, some Romans 
themselves detested their Empire, and opposed (even actively) restoration 
efforts. I am unable to say about pre-Islamic Arab culture...

> Religions that don't have this feature,
> (and that have a blood-bond, or are welded together in their beliefs by some
> ethnic, regional or historic commonality that discourages or is ambivalent to conversion) are less
> violent and fervent. 

I'm sceptic about it. I am afraid, every ethic and law can be bent when 
expectation of reward is high enough.

> The only bright side to Islamic and
> Christian fundamentalism that I can see is that growing extremism seems to
> indicate cultural decline. Another is that no ayatollah has issued a fatwa
> against Jeff Dunham and his hilarious puppet Ahkmed, the dead terrorist,

Seems like decline is linked, indeed. Maybe Dunham is popular there?

Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.      **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home    **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...      **
**                                                                 **
** Tomasz Rola          mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com             **

From bbenzai at yahoo.com  Sat Jul 31 18:47:42 2010
From: bbenzai at yahoo.com (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2010 11:47:42 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] trying to convince a friend that nanotech is not so bad...
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1430.1280536065.10820.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <312218.8750.qm@web114405.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

John Grigg <possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com> revealed (pun intended):

> My friend is part of an organization that protests nanotech
> and other
> controversial technologies by sneaking into conferences,
> briefly
> shouting protests at the top of their lungs, and then to
> make a really
> lasting impression, quickly strip off *all* of their
> clothes, to
> reveal slogans bodypainted onto their flesh! LOL
> 

Well there you go, that's your opportunity.  Tell her that with nanotech programmable tattoo ink, her body-decoration slogans could be so much more effective! changeable colours, video, etc...

(not to mention that she'd never have to buy cosmetics again, and could be any colour or pattern she wanted, etc.  Plus, if she likes stripping off, she could be naked on the beach without anyone realising)

Ben Zaiboc
(Only half-Joking)


      




From bbenzai at yahoo.com  Sat Jul 31 19:26:44 2010
From: bbenzai at yahoo.com (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2010 12:26:44 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Religions and violence
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1430.1280536065.10820.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <25400.53397.qm@web114412.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

Tomasz Rola <rtomek at ceti.pl> wrote:

> All I am telling is that there is much
> potential in 
> Islam to improve and become acceptable in modern times. And
> they should do 
> so not for us merely, but for themselves too.

Well, I'd love for that to be true.

The thing is, I'm skeptical of it.

How do you think Islam could become more humanitarian, more egalitarian, more tolerant, less violent, stop oppressing women and homosexuals, stop trying to control people's sex lives, stop trying to convert the whole world to Islam, etc., and not destroy itself?

Or do you mean different things by 'improve' and 'become acceptable in modern times'?

I'm struggling to understand how an 'improved' Islam, in any meaningful sense, could still be Islam.  Unless you're talking about very minor things, like for instance stop telling guys what haircuts are acceptable.

What's your vision of a modern, acceptable Islam, that can co-exist with the rest of the world?

Ben Zaiboc


      




From thespike at satx.rr.com  Sat Jul 31 19:51:39 2010
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2010 14:51:39 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Religions and violence
In-Reply-To: <25400.53397.qm@web114412.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <25400.53397.qm@web114412.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4C547ECB.7050901@satx.rr.com>

On 7/31/2010 2:26 PM, Ben Zaiboc wrote:

> What's your vision of a modern, acceptable Islam, that can co-exist with the rest of the world?

Parts of Indonesia, perhaps? (The largest Muslim population in the world.)

Damien Broderick


From bbenzai at yahoo.com  Sat Jul 31 19:41:18 2010
From: bbenzai at yahoo.com (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2010 12:41:18 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Religions and violence
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1280577602.17095.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <807134.2672.qm@web114420.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

While we're talking about the idea of a modern and acceptable Islam:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHdMlT3E7cg

In light of the principle of abrogation in the Koran, I'm wondering if anyone has created a version of it that omits the abrogated bits.  That would make things much clearer.

Ben Zaiboc


      




From rtomek at ceti.pl  Sat Jul 31 22:04:35 2010
From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola)
Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2010 00:04:35 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] Religions and violence
In-Reply-To: <25400.53397.qm@web114412.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <25400.53397.qm@web114412.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1007312256300.31583@tau.ceti.pl>

On Sat, 31 Jul 2010, Ben Zaiboc wrote:

> Tomasz Rola <rtomek at ceti.pl> wrote:
> 
> > All I am telling is that there is much
> > potential in 
> > Islam to improve and become acceptable in modern times. And
> > they should do 
> > so not for us merely, but for themselves too.
> 
> Well, I'd love for that to be true.
> 
> The thing is, I'm skeptical of it.

Guess what, maybe I am a bit sceptical too. But how about not prejudizing 
and giving a chance? I didn't judge them yet. I will have to know more (a 
lot more) before I really judge them. News alone are not telling enough 
(even if they tell the truth).

> How do you think Islam could become more humanitarian, more egalitarian, 
> more tolerant, less violent, stop oppressing women and homosexuals, stop 
> trying to control people's sex lives, stop trying to convert the whole 
> world to Islam, etc., and not destroy itself?

They were able to be very much like this in the past, I believe. True, it 
was distant past. But if people are irreversible, then everybody should be 
shut in the head after going past some point in their development. 
Including us (yupie! - corruption, scandals, lies, dumbing down, breaking 
of bonds, loss of perspectives, disillusionment - is it the time, Ben?).

> Or do you mean different things by 'improve' and 'become acceptable in 
> modern times'?

No.

> I'm struggling to understand how an 'improved' Islam, in any meaningful 
> sense, could still be Islam.  Unless you're talking about very minor 
> things, like for instance stop telling guys what haircuts are 
> acceptable. 

Would you believe, 500 years ago, that Catholic Church will have their own 
stem cells research and astronomical observatories?

I think Islam doesn't have a problem with accepting modern natural 
sciences, so this part of the job could be marked as done.

BTW, AFAIK in our own part of the world, guys were told about haircuts, 
too. The Beatles and hips, no-no. Punks? No-no! Homos? Oh no! Catch those 
homos, they're kissing! You are going to jail, you bastards! And women, 
you know, women are to sit at home and behave. And students are not 
allowed to protest - if they do, well, somebody could shoot one or two of 
them.

Times are changing, are they? History of intolerance, now that would be 
interesting book. Probably very different from what we use to think.

> What's your vision of a modern, acceptable Islam, that can co-exist with 
> the rest of the world? 

I am sorry to tell you, I have no vision of Islam as it is right now. So I 
would rather not try to answer this one question... for some time. My very 
trivial guess is, there should be division between state and religion. To 
what degree it can be done, I simply don't know. Besides, every Islamic 
country has slightly different situation. Too much input, not much time 
:-/.

Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.      **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home    **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...      **
**                                                                 **
** Tomasz Rola          mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com             **


From rtomek at ceti.pl  Sat Jul 31 23:33:35 2010
From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola)
Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2010 01:33:35 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] Religions and violence
In-Reply-To: <1F3511E8-AFFE-4771-809E-AB423A6593B3@bellsouth.net>
References: <201007211513.o6LFDcxv019859@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
	<20100721194356.GC23426@ofb.net>
	<4135667C-A61C-44E5-8477-04E6BA1FDC3A@bellsouth.net>
	<AANLkTimiTa1WFDUfRmwx3PWJKbSpPkLU_RxQeNNdMDHz@mail.gmail.com>
	<B502B0B7-EBC6-472C-B377-7D40732EF526@bellsouth.net>
	<AANLkTikFV+LFy9mwFB_XLHgHgCK0sH4L-hvPqyekzNY7@mail.gmail.com>
	<EF03FE45-EEC3-418C-ABF4-5C3C5BA99840@bellsouth.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1007290343110.10686@tau.ceti.pl>
	<14164DAE-A3A7-4D57-A060-7B815B09FD12@bellsouth.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1007301352070.13150@tau.ceti.pl>
	<1F3511E8-AFFE-4771-809E-AB423A6593B3@bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1008010005570.31583@tau.ceti.pl>

On Sat, 31 Jul 2010, John Clark wrote:

> On Jul 30, 2010, at 1:43 PM, Tomasz Rola wrote:
> >> 
> > John, I think you are awesomly unfair.
> 
> Well at least I'm awesome.

Good! But let this not stop you from improving.

> > you seem to judge a culture by its last 100 years? Maybe 50? This 
> > is simply unfair.
> 
> If you are a stupid and cruel person I would not think more highly of 
> you if I discovered that your great great great great great grandfather 
> was brilliant and kind. >

Why, actually I am stupid and cruel (how could you be so accurate?). This 
is why I have to learn and never forget about good brakes. Also, yes 
indeed I suspect at least some of my great great etc ancestors would be 
very suspicious about me. But I don't expect any favors because of this.

> >  there is much potential in Islam to improve and become acceptable in 
> > modern times.
> 
> I agree, in fact Islam has more potential for improvement than most 
> groups because almost any change would be an improvement.

Heh.

> If Islam 
> really wants to improve the first thing it should do is abandon religion.

Probably so, if you mean dissolution of state and religion. Religion as 
such is to stay in one form or another, this is unseparable part of 
humanity, I'm afraid.

> have. But it is near monolithic in thinking we should go back to the 
> values of the eleventh century, although some more progressive elements 
> think the fifteenth century will do.

In 15th century Renaissance was already blooming. Great idea. Let's tell 
them we can go for it.

> >  I try to understand the other side.
> 
> That is an excellent idea, you should always know your enemy;

... and friend

> but remember, understanding why somebody is a monster does not make him 
> one bit less a monster.

Sure, if he is a monster, knowing him better will convince me even more 
about it.

> > Also, I find it interesting that in one sentence you condemn some actions 
> > taken by one Muslim group on the other, and in the next sentence you 
> > condemn the whole Islam as such.
> 
> Let me ask you one question, do you condemn the whole Nazi group?

No, because condemning groups was - I believe - exactly what Nazi did. 

This way of thinking was one of the factors contributing to their failure 
and so I don't see any reason to adopt it.

I accept condemning individuals, however. If all of their individually 
judged members were found guilty in a court - so be it.

> > I post a link to article about treatment of Nobel laureates by some 
> > Muslim groups
> 
> I assume you mean Muslim Nobel laureates, there were 7 not 6 as I said 
> before, I forgot the 2006 prize for economics. Among those 7 are 
> political hack Anwar Sadat, terrorist Yasser Arafat, and writer Naguib 
> Mahfouz who's novel is banned in most of the Islamic world for 
> blasphemy.

Well, Nobel Prize wouldn't be worth much if it wasn't controversial. This 
is probably it's main point, especially in case of non-natural sciences.

> > When Y1 began, colonial powers popped out on the map in most places 
> > where there are Islamic countries today, and [...] 
> 
> And I don't care!! It's irrelevant, explaining why Islam is a 
> dysfunctional culture does not make it one bit less dysfunctional.

John, I've used your line of reasoning and came to my outcomes. Who 
wouldn't care? And the very fact that Islam is dysfunctional shouldn't 
stop me from analysing it. Actually, I should analyse it first, put labels 
on it next.

> > I would say, they were mostly successful - compared to countries like Congo
> 
> Wow what a ringing endorsement. 

Yep. Not every country can be like Japan. Or States.

> > What is interesting, is that guys were able to come into building 
> > atomic technology so fast 
> 
> Yes, the fact that Pakistan has the bomb is interesting, in the way a 44 
> magnum held to your head is interesting.

Hehe, funny. But John, munitions they made themselves. However, who sold 
them barrel, muzzle and trigger? There were also some guys looking the 
other side, pretending that nothing big is happening.

> Ayaan Hirsi Ali is indeed a remarkable and admirable human being, but 
> she is not a Muslim, she once was but not anymore, she has publicly 
> disavowed it and said she is an atheist. That's why the followers of 
> that religion who's name means peace wants to disembowel her.

As I said, I feel sorry about her story.

> > I understand that Islam - when it is let to rule the country - makes 
> > life harsh for a lot of people.
> 
> One of the great understatements of all time.

But this is my point - if there were so many oppressed people, something 
would have to happen. I don't tell we should skip it because only minority 
is opressed, but the majority - IMHO - doesn't feel oppressed.

> > it was their own Iranian people who made their Islamic Revolution.
> 
> If true that would undermine your assertion that it is only a tiny 
> minority of Muslims who are troglodytes.

I don't do assertions involving troglodytes :-). And I never heard of 
Islamic Revolution as something coming from abroad - and if so, from 
where? If they are occupants, where are the insurgents?

> > Changing hate object is like changing drug. It doesn't help at all
> 
> You seem to be saying hate is never appropriate, but it's impossible 
> never to hate and I don't believe it's desirable even to try. If hate 
> were a truly useless emotion its hard to understand why Evolution 
> preserved it for hundreds of millions of years. Some things are just 
> hateful.

Hate happens just as drinks happen. But if one drinks every day, many 
times a day, something is not well. Not everything that is good from 
evolution's point is good for us as humans. We neither kill our irritating
neighbors nor rape their wifes.

> This last part is aimed at the apologists for all religions not just 
> Islam, when they preach about the wonderful things these organizations 
> have done they always ignore one little fact, it's all based on a 
> colossal lie. Doesn't the truth count for something?

If you mean lie about God's existence, this had not been proved yet. Truth 
would count much more if you could prove it. Before that, "lie" is true in 
50%... or more. Besides, from logical standpoint, how sure you are that 
they are lying? I.e. knowing (having the proof) that God does not exist 
yet telling otherwise? What if they believe? Do they lie in this case?

> By the way, on the front page of today's New York Times is an article 
> about the Ground Zero Mosque: 
> 
>  http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/31/nyregion/31mosque.html?_r=1&ref=global-home

Well, I am not Newyorker. Don't they protest?

Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.      **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home    **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...      **
**                                                                 **
** Tomasz Rola          mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com             **