[ExI] Towards a new transhumanist movement.

Fri Oct 15 13:14:55 UTC 2010

 Keith wrote:

"Question: can you get bored in Heaven?"

The heaven that was shoved down my throat when I was a kid sounded pretty
dull, not least of all because I was told I would never die when I had no
concept of mortality anyway. And it was implied I would be sitting around
with a bunch of old people who would be ensured safe passage and whose idea
of a good time seemed to be sitting around watching reruns of Lawrence Welk
on Sunday afternoon.

But a heaven designed with the knowledge of our need for accomplishment and
that challenges us in some meaningful way perhaps wouldn't be. One only has
to look at the stories we tell each other to see what we value, and in
almost every case something needs to be at stake--usually something very
important, like a human life, or freedom, or identify -- in order for us to
achieve that 'epic win' that makes us feel it is or was all worthwhile. The
question I would ask myself is this: can human beings maintain a sense of
wonder and curiosity and a spirit of discovery if there is no longer
anything at stake? If we were uploaded into a simulation that ensures our
survival under optimum conditions, do those conditions include a sense of
mild oppression and a need to pool our resources and work together against a
common enemy, whether that enemy be death, disease, ignorance, political ill
will, etc? Even a powerful being with in innate benevolence (say what some
people call the seed AI) must feel that there is something to struggle
against, otherwise there would be no need to be benevolent. And the problem
with designing a simulation that way is that it would, at base, be utterly
false, because you couldn't tell the consciousness trapped in that
simulation the truth: that all their problems were simply designed that way
to keep them happy. Therefore all their achievements were false too, because
there was nothing to achieve in the first place.

This is all dependent, of course, on the the concept of individual human
identity. Maybe a human being with rational cognitive process and without
individual identity that seems dependent upon and defined by conflict would
define happiness in a completely different way. Who knows? My identity is
still very sharp, and  flawed, and shaped by the pressures that formed it.
In truth, my consciousness seems meaured by it, and so it is nearly
impossible for me to imagine awareness without it.

I find it interesting that the early Christian gnostics were playing around
with this idea millennia before the rest of us. The real hero of the old
testament for them was the serpent, for it offered Adam and Eve a glimpse of
the truth. That the endless conflict and suffering that human beings endured
was simply a realistic simulation by a jealous and clever minor God, who had
locked them in this physical prison to keep them subject. That is not much
different from those who suggest we could already be living in someone
else's simulation.

Darren

On Fri, Oct 15, 2010 at 9:03 AM, Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com>wrote:

> This seems to have been lost.  Using the original thread this time.
>
> On Thu, Oct 14, 2010 at 9:53 AM, Natasha Vita-More <natasha at natasha.cc>
> wrote:
> > I will repeat what has already been stated: no knowledgeable
> transhumanist
> > would argue that everyone should be uploaded against their will.
> >
> > A human being must have control over his/her right of body, brain and
> mind
> > and no one should coerce any human to evolve/morph/upload.
>
> I outlined a story where an evil character uploaded a mess of
> millennial Christians, I forget exactly why, on the day they had
> predicted the rapture.  After a couple of weeks they were noticed to
> be missing.  The cops found them all at home in cocoons plugged into
> the net.  The story revolves around this poor rookie cop who was sent
> into the simulation to inform them that they were not in Heaven after
> all, but had been uploaded as a joke.  They were offered a chance to
> go back to real life.  For the reasons Natasha gives, this took their
> informed consent, you can't just boot them out of a simulation even if
> they had been put there illegally.
>
> Also they were in a 50 to 1 speed up simulation so as far as they were
> concerned they had been in heaven for two years subjective.
>
> The mechanism used was non destructive, fully reversible so they could
> be put back in their bodies, with or without memory wipe of the
> experiences.  Question: can you get bored in Heaven?
>
> Lots of story possibilities that I didn't develop even in outline.
>
> Keith
>
>
> > Anyone who says otherwise is not a prominent transhumanist (caveat: or
> has
> > an alternative perspective which does not coerce anyone to do anything
> they
> > do not want to do.)
> >
> >
> > Natasha Vita-More
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
> > [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Alan Grimes
> > Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2010 9:02 AM
> > To: ExI chat list
> > Subject: Re: [ExI] Towards a new transhumanist movement.
> >
> > chrome://messenger/locale/messengercompose/composeMsgs.properties:
> > (argh).
> >
> >> Alan,
> >
> >> No prominent transhumanists are arguing that people should be uploaded
> >> even if they don't want to.
> >
> >> You would benefit from paying attention to reality for a change...
> >
> >
> > Look, Aleksei, Lets start with Bostrom. As far as he is concerned, the
> > debate on what we should be in the future is long since settled.
> > Actually, he talks like a 12 year old who's just discovered boobies about
> > the subject. The only question that he will entertain any discussion of
> is
> > whether or not we are already essentially uploads in someone else's
> > simulation.
> >
> > Now if you collar any of the "prominent transhumanists" you speak of,
> sure
> > they will croak out "sure sure, the choice is all yours." But when it
> comes
> > to actually making a promise to that effect, they will sternly refuse,
> > making some excuse about it being redundant or playing into fears. Well,
> are
> > those fears valid,
> >
> > Furthermore, when someone as offensive as "Extropia D'Silva" starts
> talking
> > about uploading everyone, I'm usually the *ONLY* person to call her on
> it,
> > much less the first. Lord knows what they talk about when I'm not
> present.
> >
> > --
> > DO NOT USE OBAMACARE.
> > DO NOT BUY OBAMACARE.
> > Powers are not rights.
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > extropy-chat mailing list
> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> >
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-- 
"I don't regret the kingdoms. What sense in borders and nations and
patriotism? But I miss the kings."

-*Harold and Maude*
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