brent.allsop at canonizer.com
Sun Oct 24 19:31:25 UTC 2010
I think this has been a great conversation, with lots of good points
being made on both sides.
It's also very telling how much miss perception there is by each of us
as individuals, about what others (and large groups of others, like
transhumanists in general) value or intend. It's very difficult to
track other beliefs when their value system is significantly different
than your own which is the obvious reason for much of these kinds of
gross miss perceptions.
In conversation groups like this, when anyone agrees, the conversation
simply stops. Once in a while you hare an 'I agree' or a 'me to' but
what is the use of that? Especially when there are hundreds or more 'me
too s'? Is anyone counting?
The only time posts are made are when someone says something anyone
disagrees with - everyone that disagrees is compelled to point out, what
is to them, their 'mistake'. Hence, most of us get a general miss
perception that we are in the minority on a great many things, and that
everyone is working to destroy our beliefs/values. What I believe is
desperately needed is a communication system that is consensus
documenting, counting, and building, not this kind of stuff that fosters
disagreement and destroys consensus and build enmity.
Alan, I believe I share much of your thinking that many 'uploaders' have
it completely wrong. I believe such prevalent mistakes in this
community are very detrimental, and significantly holding us back. For
me, I think of such behavior as being immoral, because mistaken views
are leading us in the wrong direction, when we could be progressing at a
significantly improved rate, if our beliefs better matched reality.
But, probably, like Alan, much of my perceptions are inaccurate and
mistaken for a great many 'uploaders'. If everyone that agrees with a
particular doctrine would work collaboratively to find and develop a
consensus and concisely state such doctrines, then quantitatively
communicate with everyone just how many people agree with that
consensus, it would certainly make our job much easier than us just
trying to guess what everyone believes based only on their repeated half
baked comments about what they disagree with.
Couldn't we make much more progress if, instead of everyone repeatedly
stating what they believe in half baked ways, every time the topic comes
up - wouldn't it be much better to simply say, I'm in camp X, with these
100, or 10,000.. other transhumanists? So we could all know
definitively, just what everyone believes?
Keith was great to point out that we are like cats, and can't be led by
anyone. He also accurately pointed out that transhumanists have yet to
have any noticeable influence on the world.
Take, in comparison, what the LDS church was able to do with something
like Prop 8 in California. I bet there are far more transhumanists
leaning people in California than there are LDS. Yet, because LDS were
extremely well organized and able to work together, look how such a
minority had extreme (I would say evil) influence on that very liberal
state. Obviously, this was simply because liberals can't co-operate and
work together. All the liberals were able to do is throw a protesting
disorganized cry-baby tantrum at the LDS, trying to destroy what they
wanted, after it was too late.
I am of course against being heard-able 'sheep' like animals like most
Mormons. Any time you have such a rigid hierarchy where everything only
flows down, never up, the moral bottleneck at the top results in the
kind of extreme immorality that you see in such fine examples of ability
to work together. Despite such extreme immorality in such organization,
it is my belief that their ability to work together does far more good
in the world than us transhumanists are able to do.
Again, what is needed is some kind of concise and quantitative
communication system that allows us to build consensus around what we
all agree on, to concisely describe such, and quantitatively measure
just how many of us share such beliefs. Then allow this information to
guide all off us that agree on anything to work together as a team,
instead of as one lonely person that is only pointing out the mistakes
everyone else is making.
Imagine what transhumanists could do, if they could work together, in a
networked way, as powerfully as LDS are able to do! I bet we could
finally start having influence in the world and at least double our rate
of moral progress towards the singularity.
Think of the opportunity out there, if we can but figure out how to
communicate, build consensus, and work together with all who agree with
us. So the moral expert minority signal can finally be heard above all
the general popular immoral and irrational noise still leading us all to
rot in the grave.
I'm working with others that agree with me on what I believe about
uploading, collaboratively, concisely stating what we believe on this
uploading survey topic here: http://canonizer.com/topic.asp/48/3 . All
you 'uploaders', would you care to help Alan and I better understand
just what it is all of you believe, and why, instead of just repeatedly
constantly pointing out our mistakes (which is obviously leading to our
miss perceptions)? Allan, would you care to concisely describe there
what you believe about this issue, so we can find others that agree with
you (and I?), and know just how many of us there are? So we can all
work together instead of standing alone?
Instead of all of us as individuals eternally pointing out everyone's
mistakes and differences, and trying to destroy it all, lets concisely
state what we all want, and work on all of it - together.
We obviously can't make any progress towards getting what everyone wants
till we know consciously and quantitatively what that is. Lets not just
try to destroy what most LDS have clearly described that they want, lets
work on letting them know what we want also, and why. Let's find all
possible consensus in all this, and collaboratively work on getting it
all, for everyone. Not focusing on criticizing and destroying all that
is different from what we want.
On 10/22/2010 8:46 AM, Keith Henson wrote:
> 2010/10/22 Alan Grimes<agrimes at speakeasy.net>:
>> I have two observations:
>> # People are quick to accuse me of being delusional about uploaders
>> ruling transhumanism
> Transhumanists are like cats. Lots of luck for anyone trying to rule them.
>> and plotting to take over the world.
> Plotting normally is a secret activity. The people who are into
> computronium and uploading are quite open about it. Further, they
> seem to think it's just the path that will be taken, like water
> running down hill, rather than having a lot of choice in the matter.
>> # People completely ignore Spike and Ben Z. who are basically confirming
>> everything I've claimed. -- And nobody, publicly at least, is willing to
>> call them out on it.
> Nobody seems to pay much attention to the model where you can go both
> ways, all the way to disembodied upload in a VR and clear back to a
> normal human brain in a normal human body.
>> Based on this dichotomy, I claim that I'm right about the uploaders
>> ruling transhumanism.
> See above, but so what if it is true? It's not like transhumanists
> have noticeable influence on the world at large.
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