[ExI] Strong libertarianism, societal good, & suffering (was: Cephalization, proles)

[Giulio Prisco]

Your position seems similar to mine.

There is certainly such a thing as fake libertarianism. In my book,
real libertarians wand freedom for everyone, while fake libertarians
want freedom for themselves and their group, and slavery for everyone
else. Real libertarians = good, fake libertarians = no good.

The freedom to do everything that does not cost money is not very
useful in today's world.

2011/5/16 Amon Zero <amon at doctrinezero.com>:
> On 15 May 2011 19:04, Amon Zero <amon at doctrinezero.com> wrote:
>>
>> Rafal -
>> Suffice to say, I disagree with your analysis on multiple levels. I have
>> never seen anything approaching conclusive evidence that full-blown
>> libertarianism would "produce good outcomes for the poor" (although of
>> course I've heard a *lot* of assertions), whereas I have seen plenty of
>> examples of unrestrained economic and political behaviour causing great
>> suffering to people unable to protect themselves from its effects.
>
> This conversation has been on my mind overnight, and I wasn't quite sure
> what it was about it that felt so irritating. I've just been added to a
> facebook group called "singulibertarians" by a friend, and as my wrote an
> introduction message it became clear what had been troubling me. In that
> message I asked a question and referred to the latest libertarianism thread
> in this list. I hope you don't mind if I simply re-post my message to that
> list:
> ******************************
> Hi All - Thanks for adding me to the group :-)
>
> Just a brief introduction: My name is Amon Zero, I'm a transhumanist,
> singularitarian, artist/musician and cognitive scientist by day. I live in
> London with a young family who keep me busy ;-)
>
> So, to say hello properly, I have a question:
>
> There are aspects of my worldview which overlap with libertarianism. I
> strongly believe in personal and economic freedom, but I also believe that
> both have their limits. I mention this because I'm currently embroiled in a
> heated debate with an extreme libertarian on the ExI list, and that
> conversation is making me come across as anti-libertarian just because I
> think freedoms are only helpful insofar as they create net good, and don't
> cause suffering. I wouldn't scrap protections against child labour, for
> example.
>
> I wonder if anyone here has any thoughts on this... for you, is there such a
> thing as too extreme libertarianism? At what point does a supposedly
> libertarian point of view become so extreme, and engender such extreme
> outcomes, that you're not wholly comfortable endorsing it?
>
> (Or you might care to address the converse; at what point does government
> intervention become unacceptable? What level of governance would you be
> willing to accept?)
>
> Disclaimer: I am founder of a very new movement - the Zero State
> (http://zerostate.net/) - which addresses these matters in its founding
> principles. So I do have strong opinions on this. I'm just curious how
> people feel about such things in here...
>
> - Amon
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