From jonkc at bellsouth.net  Tue Nov  1 15:54:07 2011
From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (john clark)
Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 08:54:07 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Pesky Neutrinos
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNSv-0ugfumgp+rc_+66r=OMRGQGDd1oDcSoQCeW_G7_Eg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1320162847.93368.YahooMailClassic@web82902.mail.mud.yahoo.com>



--- On Mon, 10/31/11, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:

On Oct 31, 2011, at 2:03 PM, Adrian Tymes wrote:

"Say you have 2 points, A and B.? Both start off at time T, according to their local clocks (previously synchronized to some third source"

But if they are moving relative to each other the clocks will not remain synchronized, each will see the others clock as running slow; this has nothing to do wit theory, its a experimental fact that has been observed many times in the lab and so will remain true even if Einstein is wrong.

"Someone at A asks a question at time T.? The question contains a representation of T, so others can know when - according to their own clocks - it was asked."

But the "T" at point A and the "T" at point B are NOT the same.

"The question is transmitted by some means - FTL or not - and arrives at point B at time T+X as measured by B's clock, X being the transit time."

So when A sends the question the fellow at point A looks at his clock and is says 3PM, and through a telescope he looks at the clock at point B and it says 2PM.

"Someone at point B transmits a reply"

So when he sends his answer the fellow at point B looks at his clock and is says 2PM and through a telescope he looks at the clock at point A and it says 1PM.

?"It arrives at point A at time T+X+Y as measured by A's clock."? 

Your notation is all screwed up, you're using the same symbol "T" for A's clock as observed by A and A's clock as observer by B and B's clock as observed by B and B's clock as observed by A, and that just won't work because they are all different. The reply arrives at A at 1PM on A's clock plus the time it takes to make a round trip between A and B. Nature always arranges things so that if the message speed is limited by the speed of light you will never get a answer before you ask a question, so in this example the round trip message time would be 2 hours or more so the answer to your question would always arrive after 3PM, the time according to your clock you asked the question. But if your message can move faster than light you could get the answer before 3PM, and that would be very odd indeed.

? John K Clark





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From atymes at gmail.com  Tue Nov  1 16:32:11 2011
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 09:32:11 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Pesky Neutrinos
In-Reply-To: <1320162847.93368.YahooMailClassic@web82902.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <CALAdGNSv-0ugfumgp+rc_+66r=OMRGQGDd1oDcSoQCeW_G7_Eg@mail.gmail.com>
	<1320162847.93368.YahooMailClassic@web82902.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNQftc5gAfiHwXjQ5ZgJS05m7oKHZXebbN_4h2qBEH17OQ@mail.gmail.com>

2011/11/1 john clark <jonkc at bellsouth.net>

> --- On *Mon, 10/31/11, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com>* wrote:
> "Say you have 2 points, A and B.  Both start off at time T, according to
> their local clocks (previously synchronized to some third source"
>
> But if they are moving relative to each other the clocks will not remain
> synchronized, each will see the others clock as running slow; this has
> nothing to do wit theory, its a experimental fact that has been observed
> many times in the lab and so will remain true even if Einstein is wrong.


Sorry, I thought it was implied: A and B, themselves, are not moving
relative to one another.  The only thing that moves relative to them, that
we're concerned about for this example, is signals between them.


> "Someone at A asks a question at time T.  The question contains a
> representation of T, so others can know when - according to their own
> clocks - it was asked."
>
> But the "T" at point A and the "T" at point B are NOT the same.


Actually, they are.  That's the whole point of synchronizing to some third
source: A and B have a guarantee that, at any given moment, whatever time A
thinks it is (say, however many seconds since some event) is the same time
B thinks it is.  So long as they remain motionless with respect to one
another, of course.


> "The question is transmitted by some means - FTL or not - and arrives at
> point B at time T+X as measured by B's clock, X being the transit time."
>
> So when A sends the question the fellow at point A looks at his clock and
> is says 3PM, and through a telescope he looks at the clock at point B and
> it says 2PM.
>
>
> "Someone at point B transmits a reply"
>
> So when he sends his answer the fellow at point B looks at his clock and
> is says 2PM and through a telescope he looks at the clock at point A and it
> says 1PM.


Sure, if they're a light-hour apart.


>  "It arrives at point A at time T+X+Y as measured by A's clock."
>
> Your notation is all screwed up, you're using the same symbol "T" for A's
> clock as observed by A and A's clock as observer by B and B's clock as
> observed by B and B's clock as observed by A, and that just won't work
> because they are all different.


No, it's for A's as observed by A and B's as observed by B.  It is not for
A's as observed by B nor B's as observed by A.

The reply arrives at A at 1PM on A's clock plus the time it takes to make a
> round trip between A and B. Nature always arranges things so that if the
> message speed is limited by the speed of light you will never get a answer
> before you ask a question, so in this example the round trip message time
> would be 2 hours or more so the answer to your question would always arrive
> after 3PM, the time according to your clock you asked the question. But if
> your message can move faster than light you could get the answer before
> 3PM, and that would be very odd indeed.
>

Let us say B got the question at 1:30 PM by B's clock, and A got the answer
at 2 PM by A's clock.

Faster than light, yes.  B would not observe - via light - A sending the
question until 2 PM, long after B has received and replied to it via some
non-light means.

Time travel, no.  1:30 PM is after 1 PM, and 2 PM is after both 1:30 PM and
(most importantly) 1 PM.

That is the essence of my question: why does FTL imply time travel?  Yes,
different amounts of time may pass for the traveler than for people at the
source & destination, but by the context that matters - time for the people
who are not traveling FTL, even if they are interacting with people or
things that are - effects do not happen before their causes.
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From jonkc at bellsouth.net  Tue Nov  1 16:42:14 2011
From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (john clark)
Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 09:42:14 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Pesky Neutrinos
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNQftc5gAfiHwXjQ5ZgJS05m7oKHZXebbN_4h2qBEH17OQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1320165734.86662.YahooMailClassic@web82902.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

?On Tue, 11/1/11, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:
"Sorry, I thought it was implied: A and B, themselves, are not moving relative to one another."? 
Then causality is not violated even with a FTL signal. So you can't always produce paradoxes, just some of the time; most of the time actually because usually things are moving relative to one another.

? John K Clark
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From atymes at gmail.com  Tue Nov  1 17:19:08 2011
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 10:19:08 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Pesky Neutrinos
In-Reply-To: <1320165734.86662.YahooMailClassic@web82902.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <CALAdGNQftc5gAfiHwXjQ5ZgJS05m7oKHZXebbN_4h2qBEH17OQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<1320165734.86662.YahooMailClassic@web82902.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNRhqG12oTUkJhyGbAtCJLevLd7ctwdz=ETNXQWhDEkydA@mail.gmail.com>

2011/11/1 john clark <jonkc at bellsouth.net>

>  On *Tue, 11/1/11, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com>* wrote:
>
> "Sorry, I thought it was implied: A and B, themselves, are not moving
> relative to one another."
>
> Then causality is not violated even with a FTL signal. So you can't always
> produce paradoxes, just some of the time; most of the time actually because
> usually things are moving relative to one another.
>
>
Could I get you to explain, then, a series of events whereby A can perform
some action where, from A's perspective, the actual effect (not just the
observation via light) happens before the cause?

The "time travel" arguments I'm seeing seem to reduce to, "A sends out a
FTL signal, something happens elsewhere, and the light from this arrives
back at A faster than if A had triggered this something by sending a signal
of light", or equivalently, "A sends out a FTL signal to point B, and
something happens at point B before point B observes - via light - A
sending this signal".

That is not actually "time travel" in any meaningful sense that I am aware
of.  The hypothesis that this is time travel is easily disproven: simply
have point B send back to A, the same sort of signal as A sent, triggered
by the receipt of A's signal.  If this truly was time travel, then B's
signal would be received by A before A sent the original signal.  Even if A
and B are moving relative to another, this does not seem possible, although
the notation gets trickier (for one thing, their clocks are not in sync -
thus the need to reduce this to A's clock to see if time travel actually
occurred).
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From painlord2k at libero.it  Tue Nov  1 19:39:31 2011
From: painlord2k at libero.it (Mirco Romanato)
Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2011 20:39:31 +0100
Subject: [ExI] rossi on cold fusion
In-Reply-To: <008801cc9817$1fa55360$5eeffa20$@att.net>
References: <027e01cc971e$fdb607c0$f9221740$@att.net>
	<4EAEF22B.3000408@libero.it>
	<008801cc9817$1fa55360$5eeffa20$@att.net>
Message-ID: <4EB04AF3.5040804@libero.it>

Il 31/10/2011 22:50, spike ha scritto:
>> ... On Behalf Of Mirco Romanato
> Subject: Re: [ExI] rossi on cold fusion

> Il 30/10/2011 17:14, spike ha scritto:
>> <http://nextbigfuture.com/2011/10/reports-on-rossi-1-mw-october-28-201
>> 1.html>

>>> Suppose you have some kind of magic black box that you claim makes excess
> heat.  You say you can create a closed loop device, but that 
>>> you haven't yet, for you are not a powerplant guy, rather a nuclear
> physicist, so in the meantime you have your 500kW generator here...

>> ...Spike, I'm probably a techno-prole, but these?...Mirco
> Don't know how Mirco, but let me put it this way: if I am proven wrong and
> Rossi really did something like what he is claiming, everything I think I
> know about physics and chemistry will be wrong and it will mean the
> salvation of our fondest techno-dreams.  I will be the happiest discredited
> guy in history.


I think this is a fine point, but I think it is wrong.
Rossi don't claim this.

The books you used to learn and your experience can be used to know what
work under determined settings, but if the setting change it could work
the same, could work differently or not work.

The problem is, often, you don't know what is different and what is not.

The nickel powders, for example, are not all the same.
They vary in size of the grains, in shape, in regularity of the
crystalline lattice, what impurities they have, and so on.
If you don't know what is significant, what will prevent a reaction from
occurring and what would help, you could go there, try to replicate the
experiment of Rossi and say "Don't work".

Think about the Cargo Cult: they think to have replied accurately what
the US Navy people did, but the great birds full of goodies don't come.
If they had a scientific mind, they could think they had disproved the
theory that big birds come when called and bring goodies.

But we know different. The Big Birds are flying around different places
today (Afghanistan) and bring goodies there.

But they come only when called by the right people, with the right
tools, under the right conditions.

Mirco


From painlord2k at libero.it  Tue Nov  1 21:19:51 2011
From: painlord2k at libero.it (Mirco Romanato)
Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2011 22:19:51 +0100
Subject: [ExI] rossi on cold fusion
In-Reply-To: <CAPoR7a5Q1v4BLCQBr0GuwqzhJd6WLQ-jD-u_++MrDSqw5WM_5A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AcyXHq418SKty56QS2mqDce1hgXA4g==>
	<027e01cc971e$fdb607c0$f9221740$@att.net>
	<CAPoR7a5Q1v4BLCQBr0GuwqzhJd6WLQ-jD-u_++MrDSqw5WM_5A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4EB06277.1060009@libero.it>

Il 31/10/2011 23:06, Stefano Vaj ha scritto:
> 2011/10/30 spike <spike66 at att.net>:
>> <http://nextbigfuture.com/2011/10/reports-on-rossi-1-mw-october-28-2011.html>
>>
> Some like it hot.

I prefer it working.

Mirco




From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Tue Nov  1 21:42:28 2011
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 22:42:28 +0100
Subject: [ExI] rossi on cold fusion
In-Reply-To: <4EB06277.1060009@libero.it>
References: <027e01cc971e$fdb607c0$f9221740$@att.net>
	<CAPoR7a5Q1v4BLCQBr0GuwqzhJd6WLQ-jD-u_++MrDSqw5WM_5A@mail.gmail.com>
	<4EB06277.1060009@libero.it>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a7QCCwtm_ePdNbkwD0nb1RFc9x6k=v0oau+KomDsissGw@mail.gmail.com>

On 1 November 2011 22:19, Mirco Romanato <painlord2k at libero.it> wrote:
> Il 31/10/2011 23:06, Stefano Vaj ha scritto:
>> 2011/10/30 spike <spike66 at att.net>:
>>> <http://nextbigfuture.com/2011/10/reports-on-rossi-1-mw-october-28-2011.html>
>>>
>> Some like it hot.
>
> I prefer it working.

If we open the window any day the sun shines, we know that hot does for a fact.

-- 
Stefano Vaj


From anders at aleph.se  Tue Nov  1 22:36:32 2011
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2011 22:36:32 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Pesky Neutrinos
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNRhqG12oTUkJhyGbAtCJLevLd7ctwdz=ETNXQWhDEkydA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALAdGNQftc5gAfiHwXjQ5ZgJS05m7oKHZXebbN_4h2qBEH17OQ@mail.gmail.com>	<1320165734.86662.YahooMailClassic@web82902.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<CALAdGNRhqG12oTUkJhyGbAtCJLevLd7ctwdz=ETNXQWhDEkydA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4EB07470.2070803@aleph.se>

Adrian Tymes wrote:
> 2011/11/1 john clark <jonkc at bellsouth.net <mailto:jonkc at bellsouth.net>>
>
>      On *Tue, 11/1/11, Adrian Tymes /<atymes at gmail.com
>     <mailto:atymes at gmail.com>>/* wrote:
>
>         "Sorry, I thought it was implied: A and B, themselves, are not
>         moving relative to one another." 
>
>     Then causality is not violated even with a FTL signal. So you
>     can't always produce paradoxes, just some of the time; most of the
>     time actually because usually things are moving relative to one
>     another.
>
>
>
> Could I get you to explain, then, a series of events whereby A can 
> perform some action where, from A's perspective, the actual effect 
> (not just the observation via light) happens before the cause?
I did a simple worked example here on a roleplaying forum of how a twice 
lightspeed signal to a relativistic observer in SR can produce a loop 
where you can get a return message before you sent your message:
http://www.eclipsephase.com/faster-speed-light-how-would-it-change-ep-if-all#comment-22275

Another version (final section relates to in-game assumptions, not the 
real world):
http://www.eclipsephase.com/faster-speed-light-how-would-it-change-ep-if-all#comment-22422


-- 
Anders Sandberg,
Future of Humanity Institute 
Oxford Martin School 
Faculty of Philosophy 
Oxford University 



From atymes at gmail.com  Wed Nov  2 00:24:29 2011
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 17:24:29 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Pesky Neutrinos
In-Reply-To: <4EB07470.2070803@aleph.se>
References: <CALAdGNQftc5gAfiHwXjQ5ZgJS05m7oKHZXebbN_4h2qBEH17OQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<1320165734.86662.YahooMailClassic@web82902.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<CALAdGNRhqG12oTUkJhyGbAtCJLevLd7ctwdz=ETNXQWhDEkydA@mail.gmail.com>
	<4EB07470.2070803@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNSmTYuHE4_sSHF0E-_ma6zp-7+V70AX+M9O0MhM84UHDg@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 3:36 PM, Anders Sandberg <anders at aleph.se> wrote:
> I did a simple worked example here on a roleplaying forum of how a twice
> lightspeed signal to a relativistic observer in SR can produce a loop where
> you can get a return message before you sent your message:
> http://www.eclipsephase.com/faster-speed-light-how-would-it-change-ep-if-all#comment-22275
>
> Another version (final section relates to in-game assumptions, not the real
> world):
> http://www.eclipsephase.com/faster-speed-light-how-would-it-change-ep-if-all#comment-22422

Thanks, but this appears to be simply incorrect.  For example:

> Now, an observer moving with a speed of 94% light-speed (which makes
> gamma 3) happens to be there to receive it. In his coordinate system,
> which we assume is synchronized with mine so that we both agree on
> the origin, the coordinate is 1.58 and the time is -1.32 - he will get the
> message before I sent it, at least according to his clock

No he won't.  Not unless he's set his clock to your clock plus light speed
lag, in which case, you sent it "before" you sent it too (and, in theory, he
could calculate when - by his clock, at least - you sent it if he knew where
you were relative to him at the time), though the light of you sending it
won't reach him until later.


From jonkc at bellsouth.net  Wed Nov  2 16:33:52 2011
From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (john clark)
Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2011 09:33:52 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Pesky Neutrinos
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNRhqG12oTUkJhyGbAtCJLevLd7ctwdz=ETNXQWhDEkydA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1320251632.53275.YahooMailClassic@web82903.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

On Tue, 11/1/11, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:
"Could I get you to explain, then, a series of events whereby A can perform some action where, from A's perspective, the actual effect (not just the observation via light) happens before the cause?"

You and a friend shake hands and synchronize your wristwatches, your friend heads for a spaceship but you stay put on Earth, soon the two of you are moving at nearly light speed relative to each other. 3PM is the drawing for the big Powerball lottery, so at that time you use your FTL neutrino radio to send the following message to your friend "The winning numbers are 9-31-50-55-56-6. Please send this message right back to me". You look at your friend through your normal telescope and wait for him to receive your message, at 315PM by your watch you notice that your friend receives your message and looks at his wristwatch, but because of time dilation (which must be real even if Einstein is wrong) both of you will see the other's wristwatch as running slow. 

So at 315pm by your wristwatch you notice he gets your message and looks at his wristwatch, but what he reads is 215PM. So at 215PM by his wristwatch he gets your message and sends it right back to you with his FTL neutrino radio. He looks at you through his normal telescope and waits for you to receive the relayed message, at 230PM by your friend's wristwatch he notices that you receive the relayed message and you look at your wristwatch, but because of time dilation he notices that your wristwatch reads 130PM. That is 90 minutes before the lottery drawing, so at 130PM you spend a dollar and buy a ticket, you split the 245 million dollar jackpot with your friend and everybody lives happily ever after; except of course for the logicians, they are not happy at all. 

?John K Clark
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From atymes at gmail.com  Wed Nov  2 17:01:16 2011
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2011 10:01:16 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Pesky Neutrinos
In-Reply-To: <1320251632.53275.YahooMailClassic@web82903.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <CALAdGNRhqG12oTUkJhyGbAtCJLevLd7ctwdz=ETNXQWhDEkydA@mail.gmail.com>
	<1320251632.53275.YahooMailClassic@web82903.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNQ3qFzNHkOYE9PjUp6Uyp+WPNcJB3TJEooxQj+egfd1yg@mail.gmail.com>

2011/11/2 john clark <jonkc at bellsouth.net>

> So at 315pm by your wristwatch you notice he gets your message and looks
> at his wristwatch, but what he reads is 215PM.


Right, but you know how fast the message was going, so you can compute when
he receives your message.  What does it say on your watch at that time?
Regardless of what it says on his watch, or when you would see him receive
it.

So at 215PM by his wristwatch he gets your message and sends it right back
> to you with his FTL neutrino radio. He looks at you through his normal
> telescope and waits for you to receive the relayed message, at 230PM by
> your friend's wristwatch he notices that you receive the relayed message
> and you look at your wristwatch, but because of time dilation he notices
> that your wristwatch reads 130PM.
>

Wouldn't time dilate in the other direction for you, relative to him,
because he underwent acceleration while you did not?  It's a classic
experiment that he can later return to you and his clock will be
permanently behind yours.
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From jonkc at bellsouth.net  Wed Nov  2 17:37:43 2011
From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (john clark)
Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2011 10:37:43 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Pesky Neutrinos
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNQ3qFzNHkOYE9PjUp6Uyp+WPNcJB3TJEooxQj+egfd1yg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1320255463.99281.YahooMailClassic@web82903.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

On Wed, 11/2/11, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:
"Wouldn't time dilate in the other direction for you, relative to him, because he underwent acceleration while you did not?" 
But you ARE undergoing acceleration because you are in a gravitational field, you are standing on the surface of the Earth undergoing an acceleration of 1g. Your friend is far from the Earth so he's not in a gravitational field, but he could be accelerating for other reasons. 

?John K Clark? 
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From atymes at gmail.com  Wed Nov  2 21:10:40 2011
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2011 14:10:40 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Pesky Neutrinos
In-Reply-To: <1320255463.99281.YahooMailClassic@web82903.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <CALAdGNQ3qFzNHkOYE9PjUp6Uyp+WPNcJB3TJEooxQj+egfd1yg@mail.gmail.com>
	<1320255463.99281.YahooMailClassic@web82903.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNQeER+GMtHhMd=Of-p438394_w-DXb-7VjzLKKAi6jwEA@mail.gmail.com>

2011/11/2 john clark <jonkc at bellsouth.net>

> On *Wed, 11/2/11, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com>* wrote:
>
> "Wouldn't time dilate in the other direction for you, relative to him,
> because he underwent acceleration while you did not?"
>
> But you ARE undergoing acceleration because you are in a gravitational
> field, you are standing on the surface of the Earth undergoing an
> acceleration of 1g. Your friend is far from the Earth so he's not in a
> gravitational field, but he could be accelerating for other reasons.
>
>
This acceleration is canceled out by the normal force of the Earth's
surface; relative to the Earth, you are not accelerating.  Moreover, I said
"underwent", as in a previous event: acceleration happened to the friend,
as part of escaping the Earth's reference frame.
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From jrd1415 at gmail.com  Thu Nov  3 02:01:18 2011
From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis)
Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2011 20:01:18 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Problem with time travel WAS Faster than light??
Message-ID: <CAHUTwkOCyOhp0RXu_M7zGCV7itMXRXN=3WQNSNZXUkr8O0vZnw@mail.gmail.com>

Mike, I wanted to thank you for your thoughtful reply to my post, and
to apologize for not responding until now.  The wife and I left Canada
for Baja on the first of Oct, were on the road for three weeks, and
then two more unpacking, setting up, and settling in for the winter
"season".  I only today got caught up enough to finish reading your
post.

I'm still digesting it.

I want to add the following to perhaps clarify my original remarks.

Summarizing my original post: There is no "river of time" upon which
one might travel upstream, ie back in time.  The "river of time" is a
mental construct, appending fore and aft to the reality of the "now"
the abstractions of future and past.  Meanwhile, this erroneous meme
of the existence of "bulk" time is the near universally-held view, no
doubt because life has duration, which "bulks up" the narrative of
memory, and with it the notion of time.

If one disposes of the notion of the "river of time", and with it the
notion of traveling "up-river" -- because the river doesn't exist --
the challenge of "going back in time" becomes completely
different,...and quite daunting.  Because -- starting from scratch --
"going back in time" really means achieving the "condition of being"
in a universe with a "now" state corresponding to some desired
previous "now" state of one's "native" universe..  To do this, you
either have to "reset" the parametric values of every single bit of
the universe -- except yourself, of course -- to correspond to what
they were at the desired moment in the past -- drag the whole friggin'
universe back with you -- or you have to create or find, and then
insert yourself into, an entirely new universe with those values.
Or...(insert favorite alternative methodology here)?

The notion of "time travel" is way common, yet I have never
encountered a treatment that formulates the issue in this manner or
deals with these objections/challenges.

Help me out here.  What am I doing wrong?

(Clears space on mantlepiece for Nobel prize for Extreme Geniuosness.
 Wonders how much of the ?1.15 million will remain after paying Carmen
Diaz for "personal services".)

Best, Jeff Davis

                   "Everything's hard till you know how to do it."
                                                     Ray Charles


On Wed, Sep 28, 2011 at 23:21:13 UTC
Mike Dougherty <msd001 at gmail.com>
wrote:

On Wed, Sep 28, 2011 at 4:03 PM, Jeff Davis <jrd1415 at gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm only just starting to think along these lines.  If anyone wants to
> jump in, have at it.  Even if only to tell me not to give up my day
> job.

I follow your visualization ( i think )

It seems obvious that in a 4d spacetime that there is no inherent
reason for any dimension to be perceived any particular way.  It's
even simpler to imagine an arbitrary plane (2d) subsection of a 3d
space.  The flatlanders experience their "northward" direction at a
right angle to the next adjacent cube-face's 'parallel world' version
of a 'northward' direction.  From our experience outside this 3d
space, we can see these cube faces as separate lower-dimensional
existences with some orientation or relationship to each other.  The
inhabitants of each plane, while being mathematical genius of simple
geometry have barely scratched the surface (sorry) of topological
thinking.  Edwin Abbot Abbot's "Flatlanders" does this concept much
more justice that I have space (and time!) to relate here (and now).

I also imagine the HereNow moment you describe as the only reality is
the center of the universe (or A universe).  There is no reason there
should be a "smooth" progression from one point to another.  Our
awareness of moment-to-moment might be recorded as a sequence of
odd-numbered coordinates, prime-numbered coordinates, or some
oscillation function with no discernible pattern at all.  The
perception of a history of moments may be contained in the HereNow
moment itself and any observance of a next moment already contains
some vector of the perception of history and future.  I imagine the
nodal point of a soundwave (for example) being instantaneously silent,
but actually being a unique combination of potentially hundreds of
individual waves that happen to be in-phase with each other.  Maybe
the next- moment has a signature of its being some consistency with a
particular carrier [wave] we experienced in the previous- moment.  If
I had any artistic ability, I imagine a picture would convey this idea
much better than the wrongness of words.

I'd like to continue this visualization into an example of a spacetime
foam, but I have to go to class.  If this thread is still alive next
time I check email, I'll continue.  :)



From jonkc at bellsouth.net  Thu Nov  3 14:22:21 2011
From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (john clark)
Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 07:22:21 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Pesky Neutrinos
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNQeER+GMtHhMd=Of-p438394_w-DXb-7VjzLKKAi6jwEA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1320330141.21458.YahooMailClassic@web82903.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I wrote:
"But you ARE undergoing acceleration because you are in a gravitational field, you are standing on the surface of the Earth undergoing an acceleration of 1g. Your friend is far from the Earth so he's not in a gravitational field, but he could be accelerating for other reasons." 

On Nov 2, 2011 Adrian Tymes wrote:


"This acceleration is canceled out by the normal force of the Earth's surface"

If you are in a rocket accelerating at 1g is the acceleration canceled out by the normal force of the rocket's floor?

"relative to the Earth, you are not accelerating." 

As far as time and space are concerned gravity and acceleration are equivalent. If you are in a closed box there is no way to know if you and the box are just sitting on the Earth's surface or if you are in intergalactic space being accelerated by a rocket at 1g, and any clock you have inside that box doesn't care which is true. 

GPS satellites orbit the Earth ever 12 hours at a speed of 8700 mph, because they are moving so fast the atomic clocks in them run 7200 nanoseconds per day SLOWER than a clock on the Earth's surface. But because they are further from the Earth's center and thus in a weaker gravitational field they run 45900 nanoseconds per day FASTER than a clock on the surface. So putting both figures together we would expect to see the clock in the satellite to run 45900?7200= 38700 nanoseconds per day FASTER than a clock on the ground, and this is indeed exactly what we see. The weaker gravity actually has over six times the effect on the clock than the rapid speed of the satellite does, and its in the opposite direction. ? 

?John K Clark

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From atymes at gmail.com  Thu Nov  3 16:37:53 2011
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 09:37:53 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Pesky Neutrinos
In-Reply-To: <1320330141.21458.YahooMailClassic@web82903.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <CALAdGNQeER+GMtHhMd=Of-p438394_w-DXb-7VjzLKKAi6jwEA@mail.gmail.com>
	<1320330141.21458.YahooMailClassic@web82903.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNTXfG4ffEPxQ=0_h8vstj60_jssZ1wKPE7=yx7vSV9KjA@mail.gmail.com>

2011/11/3 john clark <jonkc at bellsouth.net>

> I wrote:
> "But you ARE undergoing acceleration because you are in a gravitational
> field, you are standing on the surface of the Earth undergoing an
> acceleration of 1g. Your friend is far from the Earth so he's not in a
> gravitational field, but he could be accelerating for other reasons."
>
> On Nov 2, 2011 Adrian Tymes wrote:
>
> "This acceleration is canceled out by the normal force of the Earth's
> surface"
>
> If you are in a rocket accelerating at 1g is the acceleration canceled out
> by the normal force of the rocket's floor?


You are confusing an open system with a closed system.

Technically, the rocket is "accelerating" at 2g, opposed by 1g from the
Earth - so you have a net 1g.  The closed system of the rocket, including
you, is accelerating at 1g relative to the Earth.

On Earth, you have 1g - 1g = 0g net.  The closed system of the Earth,
including you, is accelerating at 0g relative to the Earth.

Thus, someone who syncs clocks with someone on Earth, then gets in a rocket
and leaves the Earth, can tell that he has experienced acceleration
relative to someone who remains on Earth, and therefore that he is no
longer in the same reference frame.  His clock will be behind one on Earth,
one on Earth will be ahead of his, and this is valid from both perspectives.


> "relative to the Earth, you are not accelerating."
>
> As far as time and space are concerned gravity and acceleration are
> equivalent. If you are in a closed box there is no way to know if you and
> the box are just sitting on the Earth's surface or if you are in
> intergalactic space being accelerated by a rocket at 1g, and any clock you
> have inside that box doesn't care which is true.
>

Let us assume you are in a rocket which experiences a net 1g acceleration
away from the Earth at all times.  At the start of the flight, you inside
the rocket (essentially a closed box) will feel a 2g acceleration,
gradually tapering off to 1g as the rocket escapes the Earth's gravity
well, even though at all times your velocity relative to the Earth
increases by roughly 10 meters per second per second.

This is the same phenomena employed if you are in an airplane that climbs
steeply, then falls at just the right rate.  Relative to the closed box of
the airplane, you experience 0g acceleration, until the airplane does
something to change that (preferably, that "something" is not "hit the
ground").
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From jrd1415 at gmail.com  Thu Nov  3 22:52:34 2011
From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis)
Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 16:52:34 -0600
Subject: [ExI] stripping out senescent cells
Message-ID: <CAHUTwkMz7YQ51J82KduU4-fcoez1UTd8X88GGkJt4ROE62cddg@mail.gmail.com>

http://www.technologyreview.com/biomedicine/39050/?nlid=nldly&nld=2011-11-03

Best, Jeff Davis

                     "Everything's hard till you know how to do it."
                                                            Ray Charles


From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Fri Nov  4 02:45:43 2011
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 19:45:43 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Weird new way to do physics
Message-ID: <1320374743.97047.YahooMailNeo@web65604.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

Whilest pondering the uselessness of dimensionless Planck units, I hit upon an idea that makes?them far less cumbersome to work with.?In the process,?I realized that my technique should make?physics?accessible to computers in a way they never were before. Yes, computers have been used to do physics calculations before but what?I am trying to do is get my humble PC to discover?novel laws of nature. In other words, as?I write this, my computer?is running a brute-force search?algorithm in Python to discover novel mathematical relationships between length, time, mass, charge, and temperature i.e. the fundamental dimensions of physics within certain boundaries. So using my technique, computers can be used not just to model physics but to?perform abstract dimensional analysis as well. I will let you?all know what my algorithm comes up with.
?
???

Stuart LaForge


?Institutions will try to preserve the problem to which they are the solution." -Clay Shirky



From rtomek at ceti.pl  Fri Nov  4 05:21:44 2011
From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola)
Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 06:21:44 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [ExI] Weird new way to do physics
In-Reply-To: <1320374743.97047.YahooMailNeo@web65604.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <1320374743.97047.YahooMailNeo@web65604.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1111040547120.11638@tau.ceti.pl>

On Thu, 3 Nov 2011, The Avantguardian wrote:

[...]
> this, my computer?is running a brute-force search?algorithm in Python to 

Ouch. If you want to stay high-level so much, consider learning a language 
that has better compiler (I may be not current but last time I checked, 
Python's compilers didn't impress me too much, which was probably my 
fault). 

I like Common Lisp, their compilers work, give decent performance (i.e. 
not tragic) and I can run the same code both interpreted (when developing) 
and compiled. I would like Haskell, which has even better compiler and is 
closely related to lambda calculus but I don't know it well enough to like 
or dislike. Ditto for Ocaml, but this one was few years ago on par with 
gcc wrt to generated code speed and can be easier to optimize than Haskell 
(from what I read).

Last but not least, you can try Octave or it's commercial cousin, what's 
its name. Especially if you have lots of matrix calculations, solving 
equations, differential equations etc. I have scratched Octave thanks to 
ML course at St. Anford and so far I like it. Not much, but still I would 
consider it for theoretical calculations more than Python. Unless you are 
fluent with Sage, but this is another story. The fact that there seems to 
be a way to link Common Lisp with Octave certainly doesn't have anything 
to do with it. There is also Maxima, a CAS written in Common Lisp, so 
definitely more usable from it, but not so much functionality.

All of above is based on anecdotes, fake news, fake benchmarks, fake blogs 
and only sometimes my own experience, so you are free to ignore it.

AFAIK Python as it is today is unfit for calculations, especially on 
multicore machines (because it is unicore). Unless you do it in Sage 
(which relies on libraries in written in C and optimised a lot).

You could also mix Python with functions in C/C++ for time consuming 
routines, but IMHO long term this is going to backfire one way or another 
(I mean, mixing different languages under one roof).

> I will let you?all know what my algorithm comes up with.?

Sure, please do.

Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.      **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home    **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...      **
**                                                                 **
** Tomasz Rola          mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com             **

From pharos at gmail.com  Fri Nov  4 09:04:02 2011
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 09:04:02 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Weird new way to do physics
In-Reply-To: <1320374743.97047.YahooMailNeo@web65604.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <1320374743.97047.YahooMailNeo@web65604.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armjSSpipkrgAL59Fb+FyA23pr0qHv128uahKMU0cxBX6ww@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Nov 4, 2011 at 2:45 AM, The Avantguardian wrote:
> Whilest pondering the uselessness of dimensionless Planck units, I hit upon an idea that makes?them far less
> cumbersome to work with.?In the process,?I realized that my technique should make?physics?accessible to
> computers in a way they never were before. Yes, computers have been used to do physics calculations
> before but what?I am trying to do is get my humble PC to discover?novel laws of nature. In other words, as
>?I write this, my computer?is running a brute-force search?algorithm in Python to discover novel mathematical
> relationships between length, time, mass, charge, and temperature i.e. the fundamental dimensions of physics
> within certain boundaries. So using my technique, computers can be used not just to model physics but to
>?perform abstract dimensional analysis as well. I will let you?all know what my algorithm comes up with.
>
>


Sounds like
<http://cacm.acm.org/magazines/2009/11/48443-deep-data-dives-discover-natural-laws/fulltext>
Quote:
The Lipson/Schmidt work features two key advancements. The first is
their look for invariants, or "conservations," rather than for
predictive models. "All laws of nature are essentially laws of
conservation and symmetry," says Lipson, a professor of mechanical
engineering. "So looking for invariants is fundamental."

Given crude initial conditions and some indication of what variables
to consider, the genetic program churned through a large number of
possible equations, keeping and building on the most promising ones at
each iteration and eliminating the others. The project's second key
advance was finding a way to identify the large number of trivial
equations that, while true and invariant, are coincidental and not
directly related to the behavior of the system being studied.

Lipson and Schmidt found that trivial equations could be weeded out by
looking at ratios of rates of change in the variables under
consideration. The program was written to favor those equations that
were able to use these ratios to predict connections between variables
over time. "This was one of the biggest challenges we were able to
overcome," Lipson says. "There are infinite trivial equations and just
a few interesting ones."

Like human scientists, the software favors equations with the fewest
terms. "We want to find the simplest equation powerful enough to
predict the dynamics of the system," Schmidt says.
--------------------


BillK



From amon at doctrinezero.com  Fri Nov  4 10:59:22 2011
From: amon at doctrinezero.com (Amon Zero)
Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 10:59:22 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Pro-Tech party names and the unfortunate past of Futurism
Message-ID: <CAAoBNdUFLbHSwa65Tq-D7Pbdo0fzxC515gVD+iQgw=djjxHwEA@mail.gmail.com>

http://transhumanpraxis.wordpress.com/2011/11/04/pro-tech-party-names-and-the-unfortunate-past-of-futurism/

-- 
*The New Futurism* : *ZERO STATE* : http://zerostate.net**
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From dennislmay at yahoo.com  Fri Nov  4 11:39:30 2011
From: dennislmay at yahoo.com (Dennis May)
Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 04:39:30 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Old Chemically Mature Galaxies and Fermi Paradox
Message-ID: <1320406770.83114.YahooMailNeo@web112113.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/11/111102092929.htm 
An interesting spin on the Fermi Paradox - 12 billion years ago
there were?whole?galaxies?more chemically mature than our sun.? 
About a year or two ago I recall discussion somewhere about 
how we are alone because it has only been recently that sufficient?
chemicals for life were available - according to the?Big Bang theory.
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From spike66 at att.net  Fri Nov  4 11:45:02 2011
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 04:45:02 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Weird new way to do physics
In-Reply-To: <1320374743.97047.YahooMailNeo@web65604.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <1320374743.97047.YahooMailNeo@web65604.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <009701cc9ae7$31356ed0$93a04c70$@att.net>


>...On Behalf Of The Avantguardian
>...Subject: [ExI] Weird new way to do physics

>...Whilest pondering the uselessness of dimensionless Planck units, I hit upon an idea that makes them far less cumbersome to work with. In the process, I realized that my technique should make physics accessible to computers in a way they never were before. Yes, computers have been used to do physics calculations before but what I am trying to do is get my humble PC to discover novel laws of nature. In other words, as I write this, my computer is running a brute-force search algorithm in Python to discover novel mathematical relationships between length, time, mass, charge, and temperature i.e. the fundamental dimensions of physics within certain boundaries...Stuart LaForge


Whilest?  

{8-]

Avant, I am a big Shakespeare fan too.  (8^D

In college some of us worked on a unit system that was based only on the known fundamental quantities, which is sorta what you are proposing I think.  We expressed all velocities in terms of c for instance, distances in terms of Planck lengths, time in chronons, energy in h*nu, momentum in h/c/lambda and so forth.  That exercise does produce insights.  We didn't think of having the computer do it however.  Our computers in those days only ran at about 17 Hz.  It was before all the cool prefixes were invented, all those kilos and megas and things.  Had we waited for them to find anything whilest we did our homework, we would still be waiting.

It is a fun worthwhile exercise however.  We found two different ways to derive e=mc^2.

spike   







From rtomek at ceti.pl  Fri Nov  4 15:17:19 2011
From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola)
Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 16:17:19 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [ExI] Weird new way to do physics
In-Reply-To: <CADt_azYk70cWLnqHUqpNe_hLY3KGS=zUjtvJLkJJrnp_kMRnjQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1320374743.97047.YahooMailNeo@web65604.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1111040547120.11638@tau.ceti.pl>
	<CADt_azYk70cWLnqHUqpNe_hLY3KGS=zUjtvJLkJJrnp_kMRnjQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1111041603020.8954@tau.ceti.pl>

On Fri, 4 Nov 2011, Noon Silk wrote:

> 2011/11/4 Tomasz Rola <rtomek at ceti.pl>:
> > On Thu, 3 Nov 2011, The Avantguardian wrote:
> >
> > [...]
> >> this, my computer?is running a brute-force search?algorithm in Python to
> >
> > [...]
> >
> > AFAIK Python as it is today is unfit for calculations, especially on
> > multicore machines (because it is unicore).  [...]
> 
> Obviously, this is wrong.
> 
> 
> > You could also mix Python with functions in C/C++ for time consuming
> > routines, but IMHO long term this is going to backfire one way or another
> > (I mean, mixing different languages under one roof).
> 
> As is this.

I have no other choice but remain being wrong, since you didn't care to 
explain yourself. Thus your remarks are close to useless.

At a minimum, you could have told me that there are Python implementations 
that are GIL-free:

http://wiki.python.org/moin/GlobalInterpreterLock

This would made your criticism constructive and useful.

Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.      **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home    **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...      **
**                                                                 **
** Tomasz Rola          mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com             **

From noonslists at gmail.com  Fri Nov  4 03:25:58 2011
From: noonslists at gmail.com (Noon Silk)
Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 14:25:58 +1100
Subject: [ExI] Weird new way to do physics
In-Reply-To: <1320374743.97047.YahooMailNeo@web65604.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <1320374743.97047.YahooMailNeo@web65604.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CADt_azZvXA6H8c6TDTgh4sVPn3VQZjzaeU8hNRMPp6EiLe1V1g@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Nov 4, 2011 at 1:45 PM, The Avantguardian
<avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Whilest pondering the uselessness of dimensionless Planck units, I hit upon an idea that
> makes?them far less cumbersome to work with.?In the process,?I realized that my technique should
> make?physics?accessible to computers in a way they never were before. Yes, computers have
> been used to do physics calculations before but what?I am trying to do is get my humble PC to
> discover?novel laws of nature. In other words, as?I write this, my computer?is running a brute-force
> search?algorithm in Python to discover novel mathematical relationships between length, time,
> mass, charge, and temperature i.e. the fundamental dimensions of physics within certain
> boundaries. So using my technique, computers can be used not just to model physics but
> to?perform abstract dimensional analysis as well. I will let you?all know what my algorithm comes
> up with.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nondimensionalization ?


> Stuart LaForge
>
>
> ?Institutions will try to preserve the problem to which they are the solution." -Clay Shirky

"No, that's not generally true." - Noon Silk.


-- 
Noon Silk

Fancy a quantum lunch? http://groups.google.com/group/quantum-lunch?hl=en

"Every morning when I wake up, I experience an exquisite joy ? the joy
of being this signature."



From dan_ust at yahoo.com  Fri Nov  4 19:33:08 2011
From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan)
Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 12:33:08 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Old Chemically Mature Galaxies and Fermi Paradox
In-Reply-To: <1320406770.83114.YahooMailNeo@web112113.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <1320406770.83114.YahooMailNeo@web112113.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1320435188.22755.YahooMailNeo@web160601.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

Maybe the age estimates are wrong, but it still seems like that wouldn't explain nearer ones being less "chemically mature." Is your suggestion that there's a process that resets the clock here -- and, further, that this process is technological?
?
Regards,
?
Dan
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From jonkc at bellsouth.net  Fri Nov  4 19:46:01 2011
From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (john clark)
Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 12:46:01 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Weird new way to do physics.
In-Reply-To: <1320374743.97047.YahooMailNeo@web65604.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1320435961.80403.YahooMailClassic@web82902.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

?On Thu, 11/3/11, The Avantguardian <avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com> wrote:
"Whilest pondering the uselessness of dimensionless Planck units, I hit upon an idea that makes?them far less cumbersome to work with.?In the process,?I realized that my technique should make?physics?accessible to computers in a way they never were before. Yes, computers have been used to do physics calculations before but what?I am trying to do is get my humble PC to discover?novel laws of nature. In other words, as?I write this, my computer?is running a brute-force search?algorithm in Python to discover novel mathematical relationships between length, time, mass, charge, and temperature i.e. the fundamental dimensions of physics within certain boundaries. So using my technique, computers can be used not just to model physics but to?perform abstract dimensional analysis as well. I will let you?all know what my algorithm comes up with."
It's worth a try, after all there is a precedent for that sort of thing being useful. In 1885 a High School mathematics teacher named Johann Balmer by pure trial and error found a formula (later generalized by Rydberg) for predicting the lines in the hydrogen spectrum. 35 years later this formula gave Niels Bohr the hint he needed to develop his model of the hydrogen atom and he was able to derive Balmer's formula from first principles. It would be interesting if by manipulating Planck's constant, the speed of light, and other basic physical constants, and some dimensionless numbers like PI and e and the Fine Structure Constant, you could come up with a number close to the gravitational constant big G.?? ?

John K Clark



?
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From dennislmay at yahoo.com  Fri Nov  4 20:33:59 2011
From: dennislmay at yahoo.com (Dennis May)
Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 13:33:59 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] [atlantis_II] Old Chemically Mature Galaxies and Fermi
	Paradox
References: <1320406770.83114.YahooMailNeo@web112113.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<1320435165.89067.YahooMailNeo@web160606.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> 
Message-ID: <1320438839.63741.YahooMailNeo@web112115.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

I wrote:
?
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/11/111102092929.htm

> An interesting spin on the Fermi Paradox - 12 billion years ago
> there were whole galaxies more chemically mature than our sun. 
> About a year or two ago I recall discussion somewhere about 
> how we are alone because it has only been recently that sufficient 
> chemicals for life were available - according to the Big Bang theory.


Dan
Ust wrote:
?
>? Maybe the age estimates are wrong, but it
still seems like that 
>? wouldn't explain nearer ones being less
"chemically mature." 
>? Is your suggestion that there's a process
that resets the clock 
>? here -- and, further, that this process it technological?
?
No my suggestion is that the
universe is indefinitely old.? There are
some mature galaxies at the edge
of observation ? this has been the 
case no matter how far back the observations
look.? Unfortunately
bright galaxies usually mean
young galaxies so there is cherry 
picking biasing the belief that
galaxies far away are generally 
chemically young [easy to see] ? this
seems true unless you 
methodically count them all.? Young galaxies poor in metals have
been observed nearby.? 
?
This indicates by observation
that the Big Bang age is not correct.
There should be no old galaxies
near the beginning of the Big Bang
age and there should be no metal
poor new galaxies nearby but both
have been observed.
?
I have discussed my views on how
this comes about elsewhere
[Physics_Frontier at Yahoogroups].? Short summary:
?
New galaxies are continually forming
from a combination of light 
gases ejected into intergalactic
space and matter/energy recycling
due to non-linear QM
effects.? Our own sun has been observed
ejecting high velocity streams
preferentially sorting Hydrogen
and Helium by velocity and
leaving other elements far behind.
The observation of the ratio of
hydrogen to helium could be 
nothing more than the averaging
of such ejection methods with
heavier materials generally left
behind.
?
New galaxies are always forming
but old ones lose material
to the rest of the universe
though conventional methods plus
non-linear QM.? What we see is the balance formed over an
indefinitely long period of time.
?
Dennis May
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From anders at aleph.se  Sat Nov  5 09:07:46 2011
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2011 09:07:46 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Old Chemically Mature Galaxies and Fermi Paradox
In-Reply-To: <1320435188.22755.YahooMailNeo@web160601.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <1320406770.83114.YahooMailNeo@web112113.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<1320435188.22755.YahooMailNeo@web160601.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4EB4FCE2.2080802@aleph.se>

Dan wrote:
> Maybe the age estimates are wrong, but it still seems like that 
> wouldn't explain nearer ones being less "chemically mature." Is your 
> suggestion that there's a process that resets the clock here -- and, 
> further, that this process is technological?

One reset mechanism that was suggested by Milan Circovic (and then, with 
some minor input from me, developed by him into a paper with Robert 
Bradbury) is that gamma ray bursts acts as the reset. The data suggests 
that gamma ray bursts were much more common in the past, and it is not 
hard to imagine that every time one hits a biosphere it slides back to a 
simple stage. If there is a number of "ladders" to climb and the GRBs 
act as "snakes", then a model with exponentially declining GRBs and lots 
of biospheres has a decently sharp transition from simple to complex 
biospheres. I don't think this is a good enough reset mechanism to 
answer the Fermi question, but it might be part of an answer.

-- 
Anders Sandberg,
Future of Humanity Institute 
Oxford Martin School 
Faculty of Philosophy 
Oxford University 



From pharos at gmail.com  Sat Nov  5 11:01:09 2011
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 11:01:09 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Old Chemically Mature Galaxies and Fermi Paradox
In-Reply-To: <4EB4FCE2.2080802@aleph.se>
References: <1320406770.83114.YahooMailNeo@web112113.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<1320435188.22755.YahooMailNeo@web160601.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<4EB4FCE2.2080802@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <CAL_armi2bPdMaqeVynXEv5O=4GWBMVtyAbM-F8jSjqT0=2TSFQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Nov 5, 2011 at 9:07 AM, Anders Sandberg wrote:
> One reset mechanism that was suggested by Milan Circovic (and then, with
> some minor input from me, developed by him into a paper with Robert
> Bradbury) is that gamma ray bursts acts as the reset. The data suggests that
> gamma ray bursts were much more common in the past, and it is not hard to
> imagine that every time one hits a biosphere it slides back to a simple
> stage. If there is a number of "ladders" to climb and the GRBs act as
> "snakes", then a model with exponentially declining GRBs and lots of
> biospheres has a decently sharp transition from simple to complex
> biospheres. I don't think this is a good enough reset mechanism to answer
> the Fermi question, but it might be part of an answer.
>
>

This article from an astrophysicist says not to worry. Stars and
Galaxies formed quickly in the early universe and started the
recycling mechanism.

<http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2011/11/the_heavy_metal_universe.php>
Quote:
This is the current record-holder for most distant galaxy ever:
UDFj-39546284, from when the Universe was only 480 million years old,
or 3.5% of its current age!
This galaxy is a small collection of hot, blue stars, with not even 1%
of the mass of the Milky Way! Is this where we were forming the first
stars? Or is this galaxy even typical of the galaxies that are out
there at this early stage in the Universe?

Our best theories tell us that we wouldn't be surprised if galaxies as
far back as this one were abundant, rich in metals, and -- in many
cases -- of comparable masses to our own Milky Way, already. But at
some point, some distant galaxy was first. And we want to know where
that was, and when that was.

At this point in time, there's only one plan in the works to find that out.
Add just one more reason to the list of why we need the James Webb
Space Telescope!

So until we get there, don't be surprised that the distant Universe is
full of heavy metals, evolved stars, or massive galaxies. The Universe
is a place where everything we know can not only happen, it happens
fast. It does make you wonder, though, just how long ago -- under the
right conditions -- planets, and even life, could have formed!
------------


BillK


From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Sat Nov  5 13:49:40 2011
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 06:49:40 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Weird new way to do physics
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1111040547120.11638@tau.ceti.pl>
References: <1320374743.97047.YahooMailNeo@web65604.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1111040547120.11638@tau.ceti.pl>
Message-ID: <1320500980.49860.YahooMailNeo@web65610.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

----- Original Message -----
> From: Tomasz Rola <rtomek at ceti.pl>
> To: The Avantguardian <avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com>; ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>; Tomasz Rola <rtomek at ceti.pl>
> Cc: 
> Sent: Thursday, November 3, 2011 10:21 PM
> Subject: Re: [ExI] Weird new way to do physics
> 
> On Thu, 3 Nov 2011, The Avantguardian wrote:
> 
> [...]
>> this, my computer?is running a brute-force search?algorithm in Python to 
> 
> Ouch. If you want to stay high-level so much, consider learning a language 
> that has better compiler (I may be not current but last time I checked, 
> Python's compilers didn't impress me too much, which was probably my 
> fault). 

[snip a bunch of suggested scripting languages I have heard of but never used]

How about Free BASIC Ide? In any case Python has some *impressive* strengths like its ability to handle integers as large as you have memory and time?to handle.?
?
> 
> AFAIK Python as it is today is unfit for calculations, especially on 
> multicore machines (because it is unicore). Unless you do it in Sage 
> (which relies on libraries in written in C and optimised a lot).

Ahh. That explains no matter how high of a priority I give its thread, it never uses more than 50% my processing power. I have been exploiting this as a feature rather than a bug but hey, whether it's dawn or dusk depends upon ones literal perspective on the world no??

In any case you are right, it is painfully slow. It is still running and I have thought of half a dozen improvements to make on the code, but it *is* making progress so I am afraid of terminating it to upgrade. Damn my shortsightedness. I should have coded a way to stop the program and save its progress to disk. Sigh. Still the?progress is?encouraging. It is?still a little over a 10% through its search space but its last few local minima have been the?scalar in the far right column:??

[3.1666666666666576, -4.1333333333333364, -4.1666666666666696, -3.3333333333333393, -4.9666666666666668] -3.33143361786e-08
[-0.73333333333334094, -4.06666666666667, -2.5666666666666753, 3.4666666666666566, -4.9666666666666668] -2.90099819722e-08
[-4.7666666666666675, -0.90000000000000757, -3.600000000000005, 4.0999999999999881, -4.9666666666666668] 2.29044871958e-08
[1.2999999999999929, -3.7333333333333378, -4.533333333333335, -0.36666666666667436, -4.9000000000000004] 2.1769437808e-08
[-4.2000000000000028, -0.1666666666666744, 1.1333333333333258, -0.66666666666667429, -4.8666666666666671] 1.18882326205e-08
[-4.3000000000000025, 0.23333333333332554, -0.76666666666667427, 0.099999999999992234, -4.4666666666666686] -7.44793737795e-09
[-2.1333333333333435, -2.5333333333333421, -0.10000000000000775, 2.4333333333333269, -4.4000000000000021] -4.2784336074e-09

If the output in the?far right column ever reaches zero from either the positive or negative side, then that will indicate the existence of a natural law so unintuitive that its bound to be novel. First natural law discovered by a computer. Heh. Maybe I'll get some credit too. ;-)


>> I will let you?all know what my algorithm comes up with.?
> 
> Sure, please do.

Not like I have the cred these days to publish anywhere else. At least it will have time and date stamp and tons of critical review. ;-)

?
Stuart LaForge


?Institutions will try to preserve the problem to which they are the solution." -Clay Shirky



From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Sat Nov  5 14:19:14 2011
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 07:19:14 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Old Chemically Mature Galaxies and Fermi Paradox
In-Reply-To: <4EB4FCE2.2080802@aleph.se>
References: <1320406770.83114.YahooMailNeo@web112113.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<1320435188.22755.YahooMailNeo@web160601.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<4EB4FCE2.2080802@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <1320502754.74912.YahooMailNeo@web65601.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

----- Original Message -----
> From: Anders Sandberg <anders at aleph.se>
> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Cc: 
> Sent: Saturday, November 5, 2011 2:07 AM
> Subject: Re: [ExI] Old Chemically Mature Galaxies and Fermi Paradox
> 
> Dan wrote:
>> Maybe the age estimates are wrong, but it still seems like that 
> wouldn't explain nearer ones being less "chemically mature." Is 
> your suggestion that there's a process that resets the clock here -- and, 
> further, that this process is technological?
> 
> One reset mechanism that was suggested by Milan Circovic (and then, with some 
> minor input from me, developed by him into a paper with Robert Bradbury) is that 
> gamma ray bursts acts as the reset. The data suggests that gamma ray bursts were 
> much more common in the past, and it is not hard to imagine that every time one 
> hits a biosphere it slides back to a simple stage. If there is a number of 
> "ladders" to climb and the GRBs act as "snakes", then a 
> model with exponentially declining GRBs and lots of biospheres has a decently 
> sharp transition from simple to complex biospheres. I don't think this is a 
> good enough reset mechanism to answer the Fermi question, but it might be part 
> of an answer.

Although I do admit gamma ray bursts suck when they are pointed your way, why would that pose a threat to shielded machine-phase life? I think a more elegant solution is that no sufficiently intelligent species would waste the energy communicating at interstellar distance using a spherical wave. Unless the species is so succesful, widespread, and energy abundant?that it is more economical for them to communicate by spherical wave rather than?by one or more directed tight- beam masers or modulated IR lasers, or something similar.? Maybe once "I Love Lucy" reaches them, the will send a greeting to Lucille Ball or some such. ?In any case, GRBs are a selling point for uploading that I never considered before.

Stuart LaForge


?Institutions will try to preserve the problem to which they are the solution." -Clay Shirky



From natasha at natasha.cc  Sat Nov  5 15:25:45 2011
From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More)
Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 10:25:45 -0500
Subject: [ExI] NYC: Feature Program covers transhumanism
Message-ID: <57BCE09F3300446E97BE5434FB49BABE@DFC68LF1>

http://www.studio360.org/
 

 
 
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From rtomek at ceti.pl  Sat Nov  5 18:09:15 2011
From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola)
Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 19:09:15 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [ExI] Weird new way to do physics
In-Reply-To: <1320500980.49860.YahooMailNeo@web65610.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <1320374743.97047.YahooMailNeo@web65604.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1111040547120.11638@tau.ceti.pl>
	<1320500980.49860.YahooMailNeo@web65610.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1111051603001.17629@tau.ceti.pl>

On Sat, 5 Nov 2011, The Avantguardian wrote:

> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Tomasz Rola <rtomek at ceti.pl>
> > To: The Avantguardian <avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com>; ExI chat list 
> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>; Tomasz Rola <rtomek at ceti.pl>
> > Cc: 
> > Sent: Thursday, November 3, 2011 10:21 PM
> > Subject: Re: [ExI] Weird new way to do physics
> > 
> > On Thu, 3 Nov 2011, The Avantguardian wrote:

> [snip a bunch of suggested scripting languages I have heard of but never 
> used]

> How about Free BASIC Ide? In any case Python has some *impressive* 
> strengths like its ability to handle integers as large as you have 
> memory and time?to handle.

Uhm, Basic is cool if one likes it, I guess. I don't like it very much, 
so I would rather stay away. BTW, if the authors don't plan to port it to 
64-bit, you may be stuck with 32-bit version, with some penalties to 
performance compared to 64-bits. Penalties are going to be small nowadays, 
but later the difference could grow as 64b grows and 32b remains 
noble/unchangeable legacy. It's somewhat similar to running DOS app in 
Windows world.

On Linux it is possible to run 32-bit code on 64-bit kernel/OS, not sure 
about other OSes - so you might as well be trapped in 32-bit OS in some 
cases...

Big Integers - I think most if not all languages I mentioned are on par 
with Python.

In CL, there is also rational number data type, which if I understand what 
I read, should give means to infinite precision (i.e. better than 
float/double arithmetic). Something like this:

[1]> (/ 1.0 10) ;; this gives float
0.1

[3]> (/ 1 10) ;; here's rational
1/10

One day, I would like to push CL rationals to the limits - something like 
computing Pi digits or similar. Simple arithmetic works for rationals, but 
common math routines output floating point:

[4]> (log (/ 1 10))
-2.3025851

[5]> (+ (/ 1 10) (/ 1 3))
13/30

So working with rationals requires building the whole bunch from the 
grounds up (the "grounds" is already built, fortunately). I mean, 
logarithms, trigonometric functions and the like. This is trivial using 
Taylor series, but since they are infinite sums, one needs to include 
desired limit/precision in function call.

But I disgress.

In Python, there is Decimal:

http://docs.python.org/library/decimal.html

It is not about rational numbers but it is comparable, I think.

Why I even mention this numeric stuff - see below.

BTW, Common Lisp, Haskell and Ocaml are not quite scripting languages. 
Maybe CL started as interpreter - however I believe CL started as a 
library that could be loaded into older, preexisting LISP implementations, 
which themselves could have been interpreted or not.

But I think nowadays there are implementations (of all those 
abovementioned ones) that focus more on compilation (both batch and JIT) 
and giving interpreter as an option (to ease development, for example to 
interact with proper editor: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SLIME ). They 
allow one to use all goodies a dynamic language can give - and then to 
compile it and have speed boost for free. In many cases performance should 
be comparable to C: 

http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/u64q/which-programming-languages-are-fastest.php

Those are kind of synthetic programmers' benchmarks. My favourites fare 
quite well :-) - look at median column. Of course those are not real life 
programs.

There are some consequences of this focus switch - one is, performance is 
measured wrt compiled code speed. Improvements to interpreter become 
secondary.

The other is, some languages are easier to evolve. Once they evolve, they 
should allow to use new idioms (be it a library or a new language 
construct) on existing code base - like, add OO programming to your fav 
lang and compile it all with old compiler, which makes adding OO (and 
other ideas) so much easier. While this kind of stuff can be done even in 
C (one C++ compiler either was or still is based on special purpose 
preprocessor to C), I would rather use CL for such experiments because 
IMHO it shines here. Another example is paralellization of your code. In 
Haskell this starts to be quite trivial:

http://stackoverflow.com/questions/3011668/how-difficult-is-haskell-multi-threading

http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/GHC/Concurrency

Seems like add a line here or there, recompile with special options and 
voila! it runs on multicore. Of course some cases are trivial and some are 
not. And in real life, there is no free lunch.

Overally, I think the most potential lies, probably, in Haskell. Both as 
language and as compiler. I wouldn't be suprised if one day its 
compiler-generated code outperformed C routinely. And its close connection 
to mathematical theory of computation could yield some unexpected bonuses.

However, learning Haskell seems to be royal PITA. Or maybe I should have 
started 10 yrs ago rather than learning Python. I guess I would be done by 
now :-). OTOH, I plan to program for some time counting from now. Whatever 
I learn, no matter how much my arse suffers, will be used. So the effort 
is worth it, as long as you plan to write non trivial programs and have no 
problem with maxing their execution speed and minimizing your development 
time (it is two argument function).

> > AFAIK Python as it is today is unfit for calculations, especially on 
> > multicore machines (because it is unicore). Unless you do it in Sage 
> > (which relies on libraries in written in C and optimised a lot).

> Ahh. That explains no matter how high of a priority I give its thread, 
> it never uses more than 50% my processing power. I have been exploiting 
> this as a feature rather than a bug but hey, whether it's dawn or dusk 
> depends upon ones literal perspective on the world no?

Well, if you don't mind waiting twice as long... or to be exact, about 
1.000000001-1.999 times as long, depending on what exactly you compute and 
how. Some code is simply unable to go parallel.

> In any case you are right, it is painfully slow. It is still running and 
> I have thought of half a dozen improvements to make on the code, but it 
> *is* making progress so I am afraid of terminating it to upgrade. Damn 
> my shortsightedness. I should have coded a way to stop the program and 
> save its progress to disk. Sigh. Still the?progress is?encouraging. It 
> is?still a little over a 10% through its search space but its last few 
> local minima have been the?scalar in the far right column:

> [3.1666666666666576, -4.1333333333333364, -4.1666666666666696, 
> -3.3333333333333393, -4.9666666666666668] -3.33143361786e-08
> [-0.73333333333334094, -4.06666666666667, -2.5666666666666753, 
> 3.4666666666666566, -4.9666666666666668] -2.90099819722e-08
> [-4.7666666666666675, -0.90000000000000757, -3.600000000000005, 
> 4.0999999999999881, -4.9666666666666668] 2.29044871958e-08
> [1.2999999999999929, -3.7333333333333378, -4.533333333333335, 
> -0.36666666666667436, -4.9000000000000004] 2.1769437808e-08
> [-4.2000000000000028, -0.1666666666666744, 1.1333333333333258, 
> -0.66666666666667429, -4.8666666666666671] 1.18882326205e-08
> [-4.3000000000000025, 0.23333333333332554, -0.76666666666667427, 
> 0.099999999999992234, -4.4666666666666686] -7.44793737795e-09
> [-2.1333333333333435, -2.5333333333333421, -0.10000000000000775, 
> 2.4333333333333269, -4.4000000000000021] -4.2784336074e-09

> If the output in the?far right column ever reaches zero from either the 
> positive or negative side, then that will indicate the existence of a 
> natural law so unintuitive that its bound to be novel.

Aha! Do you use floats up there, in those number lists?

Opss. Floats are tricky because they can't be implemented to be exact. I 
mean, they can if you can have infinite memory in a computer. AFAIK the 
current standard allows for exact representation of 0.5 (or other negative 
power of 2) but not 0.1. There are infinite number of reals that cannot be 
represented _exactly_ by computer float. I really mean it when I say 
"infinite", this is not a metaphore.

This means, your computation may come to zero simply because there will be 
no better float to represent a result, but not necesarilly because it 
really comes to zero.

This is why I mentioned rationals and Decimal.

If you use floats in your code, you can turn it off now. Sorry. Or you can 
leave it on, but even if you get zero, there is a need to tell if the zero 
is true or false.

Floats are good for engineering. For results in maths or physics, they are 
sometimes good - depends what is being computed.

In other words, you may consider rethinking your computations so it can 
check for zero with more precision than float/double can give.

Science cannot depend on whether you compute results with 20 digits or 
200.

Just my holly opinion(s).

At the same time, I admit that I sucked pathetically (yea, try to imagine 
this) at numerical methods.

> First natural law 
> discovered by a computer. Heh. Maybe I'll get some credit too. ;-)

Man, you are racing against the robots:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_(robot)

What is worse, on this list there are folks who will root for them rather 
than for you.

>> I will let you?all know what my algorithm comes up with.?
> 
> Sure, please do.

> Not like I have the cred these days to publish anywhere else. At least 
> it will have time and date stamp and tons of critical review. ;-)

Creds are fine. But... sometimes one can read about articles supressed 
because editors/reviewers thought otherwise. Or industry literally funding 
the whole branch of research presenting some aspect of industry in very 
good light.

So, as long as you can freely publish in alternative places, don't worry 
about creds.

Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.      **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home    **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...      **
**                                                                 **
** Tomasz Rola          mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com             **

From eugen at leitl.org  Sat Nov  5 18:15:19 2011
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 19:15:19 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Old Chemically Mature Galaxies and Fermi Paradox
In-Reply-To: <1320502754.74912.YahooMailNeo@web65601.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <1320406770.83114.YahooMailNeo@web112113.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<1320435188.22755.YahooMailNeo@web160601.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<4EB4FCE2.2080802@aleph.se>
	<1320502754.74912.YahooMailNeo@web65601.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20111105181519.GU31847@leitl.org>

On Sat, Nov 05, 2011 at 07:19:14AM -0700, The Avantguardian wrote:

> Although I do admit gamma ray bursts suck when they are pointed your way, 
> why would that pose a threat to shielded machine-phase life? 

They don't. We're looking at preexpansive life, which is
terribly fragile.

> I think a more elegant solution is that no sufficiently intelligent 
> species would waste the energy communicating at interstellar distance 
> using a spherical wave. Unless the species is so succesful, widespread, 

It's not wasted if it's a spherical wavefront of individuals.

> and energy abundant?that it is more economical for them to communicate 
> by spherical wave rather than?by one or more directed tight- beam 
> masers or modulated IR lasers, or something similar.? Maybe once 
> "I Love Lucy" reaches them, the will send a greeting to Lucille 
> Ball or some such. ?In any case, GRBs are a selling point for 
> uploading that I never considered before.

Machine-phase has many selling points. Being harder to kill is one
of them.

-- 
Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE


From jrd1415 at gmail.com  Sat Nov  5 21:51:24 2011
From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis)
Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 15:51:24 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Old Chemically Mature Galaxies and Fermi Paradox
In-Reply-To: <4EB4FCE2.2080802@aleph.se>
References: <1320406770.83114.YahooMailNeo@web112113.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<1320435188.22755.YahooMailNeo@web160601.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<4EB4FCE2.2080802@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <CAHUTwkM6caby5SUUCDexDPDQ52sxYbNR9Kd0RK++mF9ZCxmTaQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Nov 5, 2011 at 3:07 AM, Anders Sandberg <anders at aleph.se> wrote:


                           <snip>


> One reset mechanism that was suggested by Milan Circovic (and then, with
> some minor input from me, developed by him into a paper with Robert
> Bradbury)

Is there a link to that paper?

> is that gamma ray bursts acts as the reset. The data suggests that
> gamma ray bursts were much more common in the past, and it is not hard to
> imagine that every time one hits a biosphere it slides back to a simple
> stage.

Regarding the intensity, and consequent destructiveness of a GRB:  I'd
like to get some idea of the damage as a function of  distance.  How
close for utter obliteration (ie planet flat out gone)?  how close to
reduce the entire planet to scorched rock?  How close for scorched
rock on one side?  How close for atmosphere stripping?  How close for
surface searing without loss of atmosphere? And finally, how close for
a severe, transient, non-lethal climate "excursion" with substantial
survival on the planet's far side?  (This last question assumes that
the duration of the GRB is shorter than half the  rotation period of
the affected planet.  So one last question:  What's the typical
duration of a GRB?)

Best, Jeff Davis

         "Everything's hard till you know how to do it."
                                     Ray Charles


From jrd1415 at gmail.com  Sat Nov  5 21:55:36 2011
From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis)
Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 15:55:36 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Old Chemically Mature Galaxies and Fermi Paradox
In-Reply-To: <CAHUTwkM6caby5SUUCDexDPDQ52sxYbNR9Kd0RK++mF9ZCxmTaQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1320406770.83114.YahooMailNeo@web112113.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<1320435188.22755.YahooMailNeo@web160601.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<4EB4FCE2.2080802@aleph.se>
	<CAHUTwkM6caby5SUUCDexDPDQ52sxYbNR9Kd0RK++mF9ZCxmTaQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHUTwkPqZP_3fYy69Jv37zhcCjmaJPRb+TpDP5qjDOPQLaanjg@mail.gmail.com>

I Googled it, and Wikipedia offers the following:

Bursts can last from ten milliseconds to several minutes, although a
typical burst lasts 20?40 seconds.

Jeff Davis

On Sat, Nov 5, 2011 at 3:51 PM, Jeff Davis <jrd1415 at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, Nov 5, 2011 at 3:07 AM, Anders Sandberg <anders at aleph.se> wrote:
>
>
> ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? <snip>
>
>
>> One reset mechanism that was suggested by Milan Circovic (and then, with
>> some minor input from me, developed by him into a paper with Robert
>> Bradbury)
>
> Is there a link to that paper?
>
>> is that gamma ray bursts acts as the reset. The data suggests that
>> gamma ray bursts were much more common in the past, and it is not hard to
>> imagine that every time one hits a biosphere it slides back to a simple
>> stage.
>
> Regarding the intensity, and consequent destructiveness of a GRB: ?I'd
> like to get some idea of the damage as a function of ?distance. ?How
> close for utter obliteration (ie planet flat out gone)? ?how close to
> reduce the entire planet to scorched rock? ?How close for scorched
> rock on one side? ?How close for atmosphere stripping? ?How close for
> surface searing without loss of atmosphere? And finally, how close for
> a severe, transient, non-lethal climate "excursion" with substantial
> survival on the planet's far side? ?(This last question assumes that
> the duration of the GRB is shorter than half the ?rotation period of
> the affected planet. ?So one last question: ?What's the typical
> duration of a GRB?)
>
> Best, Jeff Davis
>
> ? ? ? ? "Everything's hard till you know how to do it."
> ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Ray Charles
>



From anders at aleph.se  Sat Nov  5 22:32:56 2011
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2011 22:32:56 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Old Chemically Mature Galaxies and Fermi Paradox
In-Reply-To: <CAHUTwkM6caby5SUUCDexDPDQ52sxYbNR9Kd0RK++mF9ZCxmTaQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1320406770.83114.YahooMailNeo@web112113.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>	<1320435188.22755.YahooMailNeo@web160601.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>	<4EB4FCE2.2080802@aleph.se>
	<CAHUTwkM6caby5SUUCDexDPDQ52sxYbNR9Kd0RK++mF9ZCxmTaQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4EB5B998.4020402@aleph.se>

Jeff Davis wrote:
> On Sat, Nov 5, 2011 at 3:07 AM, Anders Sandberg <anders at aleph.se> wrote:
>   
>> One reset mechanism that was suggested by Milan Circovic (and then, with
>> some minor input from me, developed by him into a paper with Robert
>> Bradbury)
>>     
>
> Is there a link to that paper?
>   

Hmm, I thought it was http://arxiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0506110 but it is 
mentioned in http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/astro-ph/pdf/0306/0306186v1.pdf 
and refers back to Annis 1999 paper, http://arxiv.org/abs/astro-ph/9901322

It might be that the full analysis has not been published. I'll ask 
Milan when I meet with him, and if there is something resting in drawers 
we need to finish it.

> Regarding the intensity, and consequent destructiveness of a GRB:  I'd
> like to get some idea of the damage as a function of  distance.  How
> close for utter obliteration (ie planet flat out gone)?  how close to
> reduce the entire planet to scorched rock?  How close for scorched
> rock on one side?  How close for atmosphere stripping?  How close for
> surface searing without loss of atmosphere? And finally, how close for
> a severe, transient, non-lethal climate "excursion" with substantial
> survival on the planet's far side? 

The big killer of biospheres is apparently the formation of large 
amounts of nitrous oxide in the stratosphere and the destruction of the 
ozone layer. Doesn't matter that one side is not hit.

http://www.andrewkaram.com/andy/pdf/HPJ.pdf
http://arxiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0601711
http://arxiv.org/abs/0809.0899
http://arxiv.org/abs/astro-ph/9912564
http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/0903/0903.4710.pdf
http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/0804/0804.3604.pdf

This one might be cool for the hobbyists who want to model things:
http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/arxiv/pdf/0804/0804.3207v4.pdf

However, as some of the above papers show, the effects are likely rarely 
enough to destroy biospheres, just mess with them.

-- 
Anders Sandberg,
Future of Humanity Institute
Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University 



From rtomek at ceti.pl  Sun Nov  6 03:45:29 2011
From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola)
Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 04:45:29 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [ExI] Weird new way to do physics
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1111051603001.17629@tau.ceti.pl>
References: <1320374743.97047.YahooMailNeo@web65604.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1111040547120.11638@tau.ceti.pl>
	<1320500980.49860.YahooMailNeo@web65610.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1111051603001.17629@tau.ceti.pl>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1111060430490.17629@tau.ceti.pl>


Oh I wouldn't be myself if I didn't answer my own emails.

On Sat, 5 Nov 2011, Tomasz Rola wrote:

> > > AFAIK Python as it is today is unfit for calculations, especially on 
> > > multicore machines (because it is unicore). Unless you do it in Sage 
> > > (which relies on libraries in written in C and optimised a lot).

Of course Python evolves too. It's just that I prefer some other direction 
and as Python is unwilling to go there, I had to find myself another 
animal.

[...]
> This means, your computation may come to zero simply because there will be 
> no better float to represent a result, but not necesarilly because it 
> really comes to zero.
> 
> This is why I mentioned rationals and Decimal.
> 
> If you use floats in your code, you can turn it off now. Sorry. Or you can 
> leave it on, but even if you get zero, there is a need to tell if the zero 
> is true or false.
> 
> Floats are good for engineering. For results in maths or physics, they are 
> sometimes good - depends what is being computed.
> 
> In other words, you may consider rethinking your computations so it can 
> check for zero with more precision than float/double can give.

As an afterthought, I guess you may be happy finding an algebraic 
solution with a help of some CAS (computer algebra system). CAS are able 
to perform symbolic computations. If you can find such symbolic form for 
your problem, perhaps you will be able to perform a search in space of 
symbolically expressed solutions. Or whatever you actually want to do, 
only computing on symbolic forms rather than on numbers.

In your case, since you already know Python, a good candidate should be 
Sage:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sage_(mathematics_software)

It is truly a behemoth among CASes. Or it seems like this. I have never 
really used it.

Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.      **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home    **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...      **
**                                                                 **
** Tomasz Rola          mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com             **


From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Sun Nov  6 11:13:14 2011
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 03:13:14 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ExI] Weird new way to do physics
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1111051603001.17629@tau.ceti.pl>
References: <1320374743.97047.YahooMailNeo@web65604.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1111040547120.11638@tau.ceti.pl>
	<1320500980.49860.YahooMailNeo@web65610.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1111051603001.17629@tau.ceti.pl>
Message-ID: <1320577994.284.YahooMailNeo@web65606.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

----- Original Message -----
> From: Tomasz Rola <rtomek at ceti.pl>
> To: The Avantguardian <avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com>; ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>; Tomasz Rola <rtomek at ceti.pl>
> Cc: 
> Sent: Saturday, November 5, 2011 11:09 AM
> Subject: Re: [ExI] Weird new way to do physics
> 
> On Sat, 5 Nov 2011, The Avantguardian wrote:
> 
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: Tomasz Rola <rtomek at ceti.pl>
>> > To: The Avantguardian <avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com>; ExI chat 
> list 
>> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>; Tomasz Rola <rtomek at ceti.pl>
>> > Cc: 
>> > Sent: Thursday, November 3, 2011 10:21 PM
>> > Subject: Re: [ExI] Weird new way to do physics
> 
> Aha! Do you use floats up there, in those number lists?
> 
> Opss. Floats are tricky because they can't be implemented to be exact. I 
> mean, they can if you can have infinite memory in a computer. AFAIK the 
> current standard allows for exact representation of 0.5 (or other negative 
> power of 2) but not 0.1. There are infinite number of reals that cannot be 
> represented _exactly_ by computer float. I really mean it when I say 
> "infinite", this is not a metaphore.
> This means, your computation may come to zero simply because there will be 
> no better float to represent a result, but not necesarilly because it 
> really comes to zero.

Yes I use floats but most of the problems I have been having have been because values that should be zero are not. Like cos (90 degs) and stuff. That's why I am going for the minimum rather than exactly zero pe rse.

> At the same time, I admit that I sucked pathetically (yea, try to imagine 
> this) at numerical methods.
> 
>> First natural law 
>> discovered by a computer. Heh. Maybe I'll get some credit too. ;-)
> 
> Man, you are racing against the robots:
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_(robot)
> 
> What is worse, on this list there are folks who will root for them rather 
> than for you.

>From what I gather, those folks you linked to have built a robot that is an experimentalist. I have programmed a computer to become a theoretician. Quite different things. Besides, in my case it is clever math implemented too hastily in computer code. The math is doing all the heavy lifting.


From spike66 at att.net  Sun Nov  6 11:55:14 2011
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 03:55:14 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Weird new way to do physics
In-Reply-To: <1320577994.284.YahooMailNeo@web65606.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <1320374743.97047.YahooMailNeo@web65604.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1111040547120.11638@tau.ceti.pl>	<1320500980.49860.YahooMailNeo@web65610.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1111051603001.17629@tau.ceti.pl>
	<1320577994.284.YahooMailNeo@web65606.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <01ce01cc9c7a$f2881710$d7984530$@att.net>


>... On Behalf Of The Avantguardian

>... values that should be zero are not. Like cos (90 degs) and stuff. ...

There is a small error introduced in the conversion from radians to degrees
in some languages.  Forget degrees.  Think in radians.  

spike



From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Sun Nov  6 20:03:51 2011
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 21:03:51 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Weird new way to do physics
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1111040547120.11638@tau.ceti.pl>
References: <1320374743.97047.YahooMailNeo@web65604.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1111040547120.11638@tau.ceti.pl>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a6-uSgtTNZ-wD9+t=9LDUdJzmjntqhQCd0f52VKa+U+zg@mail.gmail.com>

2011/11/4 Tomasz Rola <rtomek at ceti.pl>:
> Ouch. If you want to stay high-level so much, consider learning a language
> that has better compiler (I may be not current but last time I checked,
> Python's compilers didn't impress me too much, which was probably my
> fault).

What's wrong with dear, old Assembly for performance-sensitive tasks?

-- 
Stefano Vaj


From rtomek at ceti.pl  Sun Nov  6 22:45:39 2011
From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola)
Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 23:45:39 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [ExI] Weird new way to do physics
In-Reply-To: <CAPoR7a6-uSgtTNZ-wD9+t=9LDUdJzmjntqhQCd0f52VKa+U+zg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1320374743.97047.YahooMailNeo@web65604.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1111040547120.11638@tau.ceti.pl>
	<CAPoR7a6-uSgtTNZ-wD9+t=9LDUdJzmjntqhQCd0f52VKa+U+zg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1111062147480.5388@tau.ceti.pl>

On Sun, 6 Nov 2011, Stefano Vaj wrote:

> 2011/11/4 Tomasz Rola <rtomek at ceti.pl>:
> > Ouch. If you want to stay high-level so much, consider learning a language
> > that has better compiler (I may be not current but last time I checked,
> > Python's compilers didn't impress me too much, which was probably my
> > fault).
> 
> What's wrong with dear, old Assembly for performance-sensitive tasks?

Nothing is wrong with that. Except few things.

One is, there is no point to do trivial things faster. Like, 15 yrs ago 
one buddy of mine (or maybe his buddy) did directory listing routine that 
performed 20-something times faster than original DOS command. I imagine 
he spent considerable amount of time to design, write and debug this 
thing. Now, today, this kind of stuff is simply fast enough. I could even 
write my own "dir", or rather, "ls" on Linux, in Perl or Python (I mean, 
reading physical blocks from a disk etc), throw computing of some lower 
Fibonacci number in between the lines, and I guess it would still perform 
with acceptable speed. Thanks to cpu speed increase.

There would still be some speedup if I did 'ls' in assembly, but while 15 
years ago it was comparing 0.1s to 2s, nowadays it takes no more than few 
thousandth of second (and this is in case of very big directory). In 
simpler cases, there is no way to tell any difference between C and 
assembly without specialised utilities to measure their times.

Next, in case of modern well written OS I would expect C routine to 
outperform an assembly one. Because a modern OS is expected to cache disk 
blocks in RAM. One can, of course, replicate all those mechanisms in 
assembly, and after years (maybe months) of debugging, maybe there would 
be a noticeable difference. But chances are, nobody would care or take 
notice.

Not to forget - cpus are changing. With out of order execution and other 
hardware optimisations, one can get 2x-3x speedup by properly ordering 
instructions in one's code (not always, mind you). But since there are so 
many different cpu models, what speeds work on one will slow it on 
another. The best bet, I think, is to write in C and wait for compiler 
developers to take care of it. After that you can just recompile with 
newer compiler.

Even more, as GPU computing enters a scene and one can have graphical 
cores integrated into cpu, it is easy to imagine program written in OpenCL 
(a C-like language for graphical cores) outperforming the best possible 
classical (say, x86) assembly ran on the same cpu (again, this doesn't 
mean that every code will outperform).

Last but not least, non-trivial problems are getting harder and harder to 
understand. Thirty years ago it could be algorithm for cache or hashtable 
management. Today it's proving program correctness, for example. Compiling 
a code to optimal assembly is another nice problem. If one is going to 
write theorem prover, one should better choose a language that is easy to 
debug, because we don't need false theorems even if this means we get good 
ones after a month rather than after two days.

It is not that assembly is bad. It's just that number of problems where 
using it had sense had shrinked a lot. There is still some place for it, 
like smaller computers, and even if the whole program is written in C 
sometimes it makes sense to have alternative, special hand optimised 
assembly version of some functions.

Also, it is perhaps worth noting, that number of people who have any wits 
and are able to program working code in their memory does not grow, IMHO. 
Even though demand grows (probably). Sure you can get programmers of 
todays-most-popular-lang dozen a dime, but they are only as good as their 
IDE. It is ok, because there is umpteen thousand problems that such 
primitive tools can solve and one doesn't need Einstein for this. Not even 
Edison. However, I wouldn't like to see some type of folks meddling with 
code on nuclear submarine or managing air traffic. And now we have drones 
and they are going to be more and more autonomous. One day nuc subs will 
autonomously lay on the ocean floor, waiting for their day.

So it makes sense to give those who have wits the best tools that maximize 
their ability of turning idea into code. Cpu time is expendable. Human 
time is not. Thus assembly slowly goes out of the picture, even though 
there will always be guys using it. There should be.

P.S. The fact that some guy does click his way around his code in IDE does 
not necesarilly mean that he has no wits mentioned above. But if he cannot 
say how big is his program (in lines, in megabytes, or in hours), turn 
your doubts on. Or if umteen years pass and he doesn't learn something 
better (actually, I would start worrying after um years rather than after 
umteen).

All of the above is my holly-schmolly opinion, excepts from fake blogs and 
fake news etc. Maybe even fake anecdotes.

Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.      **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home    **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...      **
**                                                                 **
** Tomasz Rola          mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com             **


From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Mon Nov  7 01:31:47 2011
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 17:31:47 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ExI] Weird new way to do physics
In-Reply-To: <01ce01cc9c7a$f2881710$d7984530$@att.net>
References: <1320374743.97047.YahooMailNeo@web65604.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1111040547120.11638@tau.ceti.pl>
	<1320500980.49860.YahooMailNeo@web65610.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1111051603001.17629@tau.ceti.pl>
	<1320577994.284.YahooMailNeo@web65606.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<01ce01cc9c7a$f2881710$d7984530$@att.net>
Message-ID: <1320629507.41162.YahooMailNeo@web65607.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

----- Original Message -----
> From: spike <spike66 at att.net>
> To: 'The Avantguardian' <avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com>; 'ExI chat list' <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Cc: 
> Sent: Sunday, November 6, 2011 3:55 AM
> Subject: RE: [ExI] Weird new way to do physics
> 
> 
>> ... On Behalf Of The Avantguardian
> 
>> ... values that should be zero are not. Like cos (90 degs) and stuff. ...
> 
> There is a small error introduced in the conversion from radians to degrees
> in some languages.? Forget degrees.? Think in radians.? 

Thanks for the suggestion, Spike, unfortunately, I am using radians and simply used degrees in my example because I could not find the "pi" key on my keyboard. In any case, you should be one to talk, mister engineer, with your feet, foot-pounds, horse-power, and other English unit nonsense. What is horse-power anyway? Are you talking clydesdale-power or shetland pony-power? And whose foot dtermined the standard foot? The king of England? The guy with the biggest feet when they were building Stonehenge? Puhleez! ;-P
?
Stuart LaForge


?Institutions will try to preserve the problem to which they are the solution." -Clay Shirky 




From spike66 at att.net  Mon Nov  7 01:31:25 2011
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 17:31:25 -0800
Subject: [ExI] favorite physics websites
Message-ID: <026701cc9cec$f708dd70$e51a9850$@att.net>


Do you guys have favorite physics websites?  A friend sent me this NASA
site, but it doesn't seem to be up to date on some things.

http://www.symmetrymagazine.org/breaking/2011/11/02/fabric-of-the-cosmos-new
-pbs-nova-series-premieres-tonight/

I confess I haven't kept up with things recently, so I have some work to do.

spike



From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Mon Nov  7 02:07:26 2011
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 18:07:26 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ExI] Tongues
Message-ID: <1320631646.15623.YahooMailNeo@web65605.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

Imagine?you wakes up one morning and you find yourself in a locked and sealed?room. You have access to the Internet and?you are?greeted?by a seemingly disembodied voice that says.that you?will be?allowed to leave should one merely speak the "magic" words: ???????????? ??????????????

What?would *you*?do?
?
P.S. if you know the language and translation. Have fun. ;-)
?

Stuart LaForge


?Institutions will try to preserve the problem to which they are the solution." -Clay Shirky



From spike66 at att.net  Mon Nov  7 02:02:44 2011
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 18:02:44 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Weird new way to do physics
In-Reply-To: <1320629507.41162.YahooMailNeo@web65607.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <1320374743.97047.YahooMailNeo@web65604.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1111040547120.11638@tau.ceti.pl>	<1320500980.49860.YahooMailNeo@web65610.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1111051603001.17629@tau.ceti.pl>	<1320577994.284.YahooMailNeo@web65606.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>	<01ce01cc9c7a$f2881710$d7984530$@att.net>
	<1320629507.41162.YahooMailNeo@web65607.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <026801cc9cf1$57c4d2f0$074e78d0$@att.net>

>... On Behalf Of The Avantguardian

Subject: Re: [ExI] Weird new way to do physics

----- Original Message -----
> From: spike <spike66 at att.net>

> >  Forget degrees.  Think in radians.

>...Thanks for the suggestion, Spike, unfortunately, I am using radians and simply used degrees in my example because I could not find the "pi" key on my keyboard. In any case, you should be one to talk, mister engineer, with your feet, foot-pounds, horse-power, and other English unit nonsense...

Not my feet or pounds.  I think metric.

Engineers must be unit-bilingual.  I am more comfortable in metric units.  The English unit notion of having both a pound mass and a pound force is nonsense.  I had a professor who tried to explain the differences in the equations when using metric and English, how and where to insert G in one system but not the other.  I proposed a way to do it that works really well: in any problem using English units, step one is to convert all pounds mass to slugs.  Then the English and metric equations work the same.  Just think of a slug as a big kg, and a pound as a big Newton.

> ...What is horse-power anyway? 

746 watts.


>...Are you talking clydesdale-power or shetland pony-power? 

Agreed the horse that was used to determine 550 ft-pounds per second was surely a rather flimsy horse.  Or had the flu that day.  Humans can produce a horsepower in short bursts.  Perhaps they meant the amount a horse could do in the long haul.  Seems like they would have made it an even 1000 ft-pounds/sec.


>...And whose foot determined the standard foot? The king of England? The guy with the biggest feet when they were building Stonehenge? Puhleez! ;-P  Stuart LaForge

You got me pal.  I think metric these days.  

My MBrain pitch Friday used an acceleration unit you may not be familiar with.  Recall that I proposed moving an entire star and planetary system using light pressure from an MBrain.  In that sense, the most useful unit of acceleration is light-years per square age, where age is defined as one million years.  So a typical sunlike star with an MBrain can create an acceleration of about .03 ly/(age)^2.  If that is the case, then .5a*t^2 using a=.03, then t is about 15 ages, or 15 million years, to go a distance of the nearest star.

spike





From spike66 at att.net  Mon Nov  7 02:04:21 2011
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 18:04:21 -0800
Subject: [ExI] favorite physics websites
In-Reply-To: <026701cc9cec$f708dd70$e51a9850$@att.net>
References: <026701cc9cec$f708dd70$e51a9850$@att.net>
Message-ID: <026901cc9cf1$91cc52c0$b564f840$@att.net>

Ooops, wrong site.  This is the NASA site:

http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/universe/uni_shape.html

spike


-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of spike
Sent: Sunday, November 06, 2011 5:31 PM
To: 'ExI chat list'
Subject: [ExI] favorite physics websites


Do you guys have favorite physics websites?  A friend sent me this NASA
site, but it doesn't seem to be up to date on some things.

http://www.symmetrymagazine.org/breaking/2011/11/02/fabric-of-the-cosmos-new
-pbs-nova-series-premieres-tonight/

I confess I haven't kept up with things recently, so I have some work to do.

spike

_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat



From spike66 at att.net  Mon Nov  7 02:36:21 2011
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 18:36:21 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Tongues
In-Reply-To: <1320631646.15623.YahooMailNeo@web65605.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <1320631646.15623.YahooMailNeo@web65605.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <026a01cc9cf6$0a9422b0$1fbc6810$@att.net>


>... On Behalf Of The Avantguardian
Subject: [ExI] Tongues

>...Imagine you wakes up one morning and you find yourself in a locked and sealed room. You have access to the Internet and you are greeted by a seemingly disembodied voice that says.that you will be allowed to leave should one merely speak the "magic" words: ???????????? ??????????????  What would *you* do?  Stuart LaForge



Is this a Laotian comedy video of some sort?  I copied and pasted into google with quotes around it.  Came back with a lot of hits, all of them Asian actors doing various things.  I saw a lot of the comment "Old Time Story" with a tag of comedy.  The many hits were YouTubes with some Asian language.

I sent the comment to my neighbor who is Burmese but also speaks Laotian and other local dialects.

spike




From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Mon Nov  7 03:49:37 2011
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 19:49:37 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ExI] Weird new way to do physics
In-Reply-To: <026801cc9cf1$57c4d2f0$074e78d0$@att.net>
References: <1320374743.97047.YahooMailNeo@web65604.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1111040547120.11638@tau.ceti.pl>
	<1320500980.49860.YahooMailNeo@web65610.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1111051603001.17629@tau.ceti.pl>
	<1320577994.284.YahooMailNeo@web65606.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<01ce01cc9c7a$f2881710$d7984530$@att.net>
	<1320629507.41162.YahooMailNeo@web65607.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<026801cc9cf1$57c4d2f0$074e78d0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <1320637777.43256.YahooMailNeo@web65611.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>




----- Original Message -----
> From: spike <spike66 at att.net>
> To: 'The Avantguardian' <avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com>; 'ExI chat list' <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Cc: 
> Sent: Sunday, November 6, 2011 6:02 PM
> Subject: RE: [ExI] Weird new way to do physics
> 
>> ... On Behalf Of The Avantguardian

> 
> Engineers must be unit-bilingual.
?
But how unit-multilingual are you?? If a train starts?from Stone Henge at 40 cubits/rotation of an egg-timer?and then from there accelerates at Plutonian surface g, then riddle me this BatSpike:?how many barrels of water fall over Victorian Falls before the train reaches Dover as the laden swallow flies?
?
> 
> My MBrain pitch Friday used an acceleration unit you may not be familiar with.? 
> Recall that I proposed moving an entire star and planetary system using light 
> pressure from an MBrain.? In that sense, the most useful unit of acceleration is 
> light-years per square age, where age is defined as one million years.? So a 
> typical sunlike star with an MBrain can create an acceleration of about .03 
> ly/(age)^2.? If that is the case, then .5a*t^2 using a=.03, then t is about 15 
> ages, or 15 million years, to go a distance of the nearest star.

Congrats on?delivering your pitch but?who were you pitching? Sounds fascinating, but I am sure an MBrain would figure out?a way to travel faster than you propose even if it had to consume entire planets in its path. I mean I certainly would if I were an MBrain. Time is money, after all,?no matter how fat and shiny you are right? Besides I am no angel *now* let alone if I had the tremendous power of an MBrain at my disposal.
?
Don't worry though. One of you?would be?spared in order to act as?our emissary to the potentially numerous?worlds inhabited by intelligent species in?the galactic neighborhood of?the?MBrain. To this end, you would be given the following job perks:
?
*?An EVA suit with waste-filtration and air-recycling system and extended battery life.
?
*?A life insurance policy to provide for you and your?loved-one(s) in the unfortunate event of your demise, demolition, decompression, dismemberment, digestion, impregnation, infection, infestation,?or immolation in the performance of your duties. Note that we will be your sole beneficiary, since we?would be?the only one left.
?
*?A snazzy rocket-propelled motorcycle could be also?yours to boot!
?
Act *now* and be that lucky guy or gal get all this! As an added bonus, that lucky guy or gal would get to retain their *own* identities away from the collective to boot. 
?
Be a part of history by acting quickly to help spare the sentient life of the?galaxy needless suffering. For less than a dollar a day you could sponsor the survival of a biosphere somewhere in your very own galaxy!
?
To apply, send $10.00 USD in check, cash, or money order to me along with?a 3-minute video explaining why you should be lucky man or woman to get the position as our emmisary.
?
This message brought to you by *me*. Offer not valid in some states. Must be 18 or older to apply. All application materials will become the sole property of MBrain and will not be returned. Some travel and nudity required. Surfboard, body paint, rocket-fuel, and planetary evacuation costs?not included. Act now and be spared! We am MBrain! All your base is belong to us!?
?
Stuart LaForge


?Institutions will try to preserve the problem to which they are the solution." -Clay Shirky 




From spike66 at att.net  Mon Nov  7 04:17:04 2011
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 20:17:04 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Weird new way to do physics
In-Reply-To: <1320637777.43256.YahooMailNeo@web65611.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <1320374743.97047.YahooMailNeo@web65604.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1111040547120.11638@tau.ceti.pl>	<1320500980.49860.YahooMailNeo@web65610.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1111051603001.17629@tau.ceti.pl>	<1320577994.284.YahooMailNeo@web65606.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>	<01ce01cc9c7a$f2881710$d7984530$@att.net>	<1320629507.41162.YahooMailNeo@web65607.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>	<026801cc9cf1$57c4d2f0$074e78d0$@att.net>
	<1320637777.43256.YahooMailNeo@web65611.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <027901cc9d04$1bd92f30$538b8d90$@att.net>


>... On Behalf Of The Avantguardian

To: ExI-Chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] Weird new way to do physics


>> Engineers must be unit-bilingual.
 
>But how unit-multilingual are you?

Two is all you need.  Every unit system besides metric and English are extinct in the engineering world, or a specialty system that only specialists need.

 
>> My MBrain pitch Friday ...  If that is the case, then .5a*t^2 using a=.03, then t is about 15 ages, or 15 million years, to go a distance of the nearest star.

>...Congrats on delivering your pitch but who were you pitching?

Society of Allied Weight Engineers.

>... Sounds fascinating, but I am sure an MBrain would figure out a way to travel faster than you propose even if it had to consume entire planets in its path... Stuart LaForge

Maybe not.  It is perfectly reasonable to theorize that there is no magic physics, no way to control wormholes, no trilithium crystals, nothing that is all that far outside our currently understood physics.  This is one possible explanation to the Fermi Paradox: it is inherently difficult to do interstellar travel.  It is possible that even an MBrain must follow the rules we pretty much understand now.  I don't like to consider that possibility, but it is one of them.  

If we discount for now the possibility of strong nanotech, we can still get to the nearest star in 20 million years, then use the gravitation to bend our path to shoot off toward the next one, while leaving some replicating assemblers behind.  Note I did not say replicating nano-assemblers.  For this pitch, I theorized ordinary non-covalent bond capable replicating machines, technology we may have available to us in the near term.

spike




From spike66 at att.net  Mon Nov  7 05:47:01 2011
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 21:47:01 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Tongues
In-Reply-To: <1320631646.15623.YahooMailNeo@web65605.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <1320631646.15623.YahooMailNeo@web65605.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <028001cc9d10$ac615800$05240800$@att.net>

>... On Behalf Of The Avantguardian

>...merely speak the "magic" words: ???????????? ??????????????  ...What would *you* do?...Stuart LaForge


I copied it into Microsloth Word and noted that the font is DokChampa.  So I googled on DokChampa and learned that it is a font used to write Lao and Lao dialects.  So I posted the message to my Laotian neighbor, but haven't heard back.  Then I found a Lao dictionary online, but stopped it before it finished downloading.  I didn't see the sense in using up the disc space on something I would use only once:

http://www.simt.edu.la/Students%20workL.html

My Laotian neighbor will likely reply tomorrow.  There are also a number of Lao chat sites where one could drop in and ask, but they require a login, and I decided it wasn't worth it for just one message.  Might get spammed forever from that one visit.

Besides that, my neighbor can even demonstrate the correct pronunciation.

spike




From spike66 at att.net  Mon Nov  7 05:51:53 2011
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 21:51:53 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Tongues
In-Reply-To: <1320631646.15623.YahooMailNeo@web65605.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <1320631646.15623.YahooMailNeo@web65605.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <028101cc9d11$5add28f0$10977ad0$@att.net>


On Behalf Of The Avantguardian
Subject: [ExI] Tongues

>...Imagine you wakes up one morning and you find yourself in a locked and sealed room. You have access to the Internet and you are greeted by a seemingly disembodied voice that says.that you will be allowed to leave should one merely speak the "magic" words: ???????????? ??????????????


Doh!  You got me, cancel previous messages.  Of course I wouldn't have the previous solution available, since I don't know any fonts.  The message was delivered by a disembodied voice.  So the magic words would be delivered as sounds.  So you get out your cell phone and record the sound of the magic words, then play it back.

Or if you are my son who seems to have a tape recorder in his head, you just repeat back the magic words as you heard them, and get it pretty close to right.

Good puzzle Avant!

spike




From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Mon Nov  7 11:46:14 2011
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2011 12:46:14 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Weird new way to do physics
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1111062147480.5388@tau.ceti.pl>
References: <1320374743.97047.YahooMailNeo@web65604.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1111040547120.11638@tau.ceti.pl>
	<CAPoR7a6-uSgtTNZ-wD9+t=9LDUdJzmjntqhQCd0f52VKa+U+zg@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1111062147480.5388@tau.ceti.pl>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a4Dun4Ar0iDa9=VCOeUuqmXLqtxSWSwEwuGZOTF5kJsYw@mail.gmail.com>

On 6 November 2011 23:45, Tomasz Rola <rtomek at ceti.pl> wrote:

> On Sun, 6 Nov 2011, Stefano Vaj wrote:
> > What's wrong with dear, old Assembly for performance-sensitive tasks?
>
> Nothing is wrong with that. Except few things.
>
> One is, there is no point to do trivial things faster.


Yes, it was to some extent a tongue-in-cheek remark and an emoticon remains
for once in my pen.

In principle what you say corresponds to my own ideas with regard to energy
saving, or taylorism in work organisation: nothing wrong in efficiency, but
the dividends are asymptotical at best, and what really matters at the end
of the day is more the available power than squeezing the last drop of
juice out of it.

OTOH, whenever we are faced with endless repetitions of relatively simple
tasks, small increases in efficiencies may indeed make a difference and pay
for themselves. And, yes, a cultural loss in our ability to deal with low
level aspects of such tasks may be considered as a decadent trait. At least
until machines themselves will be able to outperform us in such dealing.


-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From rtomek at ceti.pl  Mon Nov  7 17:10:40 2011
From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola)
Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2011 18:10:40 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [ExI] Weird new way to do physics
In-Reply-To: <CAPoR7a4Dun4Ar0iDa9=VCOeUuqmXLqtxSWSwEwuGZOTF5kJsYw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1320374743.97047.YahooMailNeo@web65604.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1111040547120.11638@tau.ceti.pl>
	<CAPoR7a6-uSgtTNZ-wD9+t=9LDUdJzmjntqhQCd0f52VKa+U+zg@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1111062147480.5388@tau.ceti.pl>
	<CAPoR7a4Dun4Ar0iDa9=VCOeUuqmXLqtxSWSwEwuGZOTF5kJsYw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1111071722030.27527@tau.ceti.pl>

On Mon, 7 Nov 2011, Stefano Vaj wrote:

> On 6 November 2011 23:45, Tomasz Rola <rtomek at ceti.pl> wrote:
> 
> > On Sun, 6 Nov 2011, Stefano Vaj wrote:
> > > What's wrong with dear, old Assembly for performance-sensitive tasks?
> >
> > Nothing is wrong with that. Except few things.
> >
> > One is, there is no point to do trivial things faster.
> 
> 
> Yes, it was to some extent a tongue-in-cheek remark and an emoticon remains
> for once in my pen.
> 
> In principle what you say corresponds to my own ideas with regard to energy
> saving, or taylorism in work organisation: nothing wrong in efficiency, but
> the dividends are asymptotical at best, and what really matters at the end
> of the day is more the available power than squeezing the last drop of
> juice out of it.

Yes, you summed this up very well.

> OTOH, whenever we are faced with endless repetitions of relatively simple
> tasks, small increases in efficiencies may indeed make a difference and pay
> for themselves.

In such case, this is not trivial and of course it's good to squeeze juice 
etc. 

> And, yes, a cultural loss in our ability to deal with low
> level aspects of such tasks may be considered as a decadent trait. At least
> until machines themselves will be able to outperform us in such dealing.

I think there will always be people capable of thinking low level and 
doing such stuff either professionally or as a hobby. But they will be 
less visible "to the public", even if "the public" uses products of their 
work on a daily basis (lifts, street lights, car engines, microwave ovens, 
AV recorders, cell phones and base stations, water/gas/electricity 
infrastructure, network routers, bar code readers and so on, ad 
infinitum).

However, their jobs is so visually unattractive that it rarely gets any 
mention in the media. I wonder for example when was the last time the hex 
dump was shown in a film in a meaningful way (let's assume Matrix doesn't 
count). I mean a way that was connected to the plot and not just a mere 
decoration :-). There was a time when hexdumps were cool and making them 
was hip but the time has gone and babes no longer consider this to be 
equivalent of sexy (too bad, isn't it, cause making hex dump is so easy).

Even if they show hex dump from time to time, do they ever mention that 
hex can be edited? This sounds like kind of taboo :-) so maybe actors do 
such things in some hardcore Swedish films that never get out of their 
original country.

Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.      **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home    **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...      **
**                                                                 **
** Tomasz Rola          mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com             **


From giulio at gmail.com  Mon Nov  7 18:08:43 2011
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2011 19:08:43 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Online talk next Sunday: Ken Hayworth on How to create a
 Connectome Observatory of the mouse brain and beyond
Message-ID: <CAKTCJyc1B0GL7HfQ1=g5i0cvSBJ+PG40nTAVwWFGpndRQPOyqg@mail.gmail.com>

Ken Hayworth will give an online talk next Sunday Nov. 13 at 10am PST
in teleXLR8, on How to create a Connectome Observatory of the mouse
brain and beyond. If you wish to attend:
- If you have a teleXLR8 account created in 2011, you can just show up.
- If you have a teleXLR8 account created in 2010, I will need to
create a new account for you. Please contact me.
Please read: IMPORTANT ? invitations and logistics
http://telexlr8.wordpress.com/2011/08/19/important-invitations-and-logistics/

How to create a Connectome Observatory of the mouse brain and beyond
http://www.kurzweilai.net/how-to-create-a-connectome-observatory-of-the-mouse-brain-and-beyond

Dr. Kenneth Hayworth will present an online talk and Q/A on How to
create a Connectome Observatory of the mouse brain and beyond on
Sunday, November 13, at 10am PST.

He will present a plan to map the mouse brain at very high resolution.

The talk will be in teleXLR8, a 3D interactive video conferencing
space. Please contact the organizers if you wish to attend the talk.

Hayworth is a postdoctoral fellow at Harvard University, a co-founder
of the Brain Preservation Foundation, and designer of the Automatic
Tape-Collecting Lathe Ultramicrotome (ATLUM), which could allow
efficient nanoscale imaging of brain tissues.

?In 100 years, if we have the technology to bring someone back, it
won?t be in a biological body,? he said in a New York Times article
last year. ?It is these scanning techniques and mind-uploading that, I
think, will bring people back. This is a taboo topic in the scientific
community. But we have a cure to death right here. Why aren?t we
pursuing it??

See also:
Ken Hayworth on How to create a Connectome Observatory of the mouse
brain and beyond, OpenQwaq, November 13 2011, 10am PST | teleXLR8
http://telexlr8.wordpress.com/2011/09/24/ken-hayworth-on-how-to-create-a-connectome-observatory-of-the-mouse-brain-and-beyond-openqwaq-november-13-2011-10am-pst/



From pharos at gmail.com  Mon Nov  7 20:50:04 2011
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2011 20:50:04 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Launching Satellites from Airplanes DARPA
Message-ID: <CAL_armikZODFsq7=d3LtZ221uJttPhzq6ek6iocO8sWzA9kfMw@mail.gmail.com>

Launching satellites from launchpads is cool and everything, but if
DARPA has its way the military could soon be launching small
satellites from airliners, granting the Pentagon the ability to put
satellites aloft from virtually any airfield and at a fraction of the
cost.

<http://www.popsci.com/technology/article/2011-11/keep-steady-stream-satellites-going-darpa-wants-launch-sats-jet-airplanes>

Airborne launch platforms cruising at just 25,000 feet would place the
initial launch at an altitude that?s above much of the Earth?s denser
atmosphere. Such a system would also provide the launch
vehicle--likely something very much like an aerially launched
missile--with an initial velocity, so the rocket wouldn?t be starting
from a standstill. That should trim the cost-per-pound of
payload--DARPA hopes to cut costs by two thirds, from up to $30,000
per pound now to less than $10,000 per pound in the future.
-------------------


BillK



From dan_ust at yahoo.com  Mon Nov  7 22:19:54 2011
From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan)
Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2011 14:19:54 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ExI] Launching Satellites from Airplanes DARPA
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armikZODFsq7=d3LtZ221uJttPhzq6ek6iocO8sWzA9kfMw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armikZODFsq7=d3LtZ221uJttPhzq6ek6iocO8sWzA9kfMw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1320704394.88364.YahooMailNeo@web160606.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

Isn't this idea already implemented:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pegasus_%28rocket%29

Regards,

Dan
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From dan_ust at yahoo.com  Mon Nov  7 22:38:39 2011
From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan)
Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2011 14:38:39 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ExI] Tongues
In-Reply-To: <1320631646.15623.YahooMailNeo@web65605.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <1320631646.15623.YahooMailNeo@web65605.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1320705519.43876.YahooMailNeo@web160608.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

Exterminate all rational thought? Just my guess....

Regards,

Dan
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From dennislmay at yahoo.com  Mon Nov  7 23:27:51 2011
From: dennislmay at yahoo.com (Dennis May)
Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2011 15:27:51 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ExI] Launching Satellites from Airplanes DARPA
In-Reply-To: <1320704394.88364.YahooMailNeo@web160606.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <CAL_armikZODFsq7=d3LtZ221uJttPhzq6ek6iocO8sWzA9kfMw@mail.gmail.com>
	<1320704394.88364.YahooMailNeo@web160606.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1320708471.32907.YahooMailNeo@web112112.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

A guy I went to college with worked on Pegasus 
sometime during in the 1985-1987 time frame.
?
Same idea more or less.

Dennis


________________________________
From: Dan <dan_ust at yahoo.com>
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Monday, November 7, 2011 4:19 PM
Subject: Re: [ExI] Launching Satellites from Airplanes DARPA


Isn't this idea already implemented:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pegasus_%28rocket%29

Regards,

Dan

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From pharos at gmail.com  Tue Nov  8 00:05:27 2011
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 00:05:27 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Launching Satellites from Airplanes DARPA
In-Reply-To: <1320708471.32907.YahooMailNeo@web112112.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <CAL_armikZODFsq7=d3LtZ221uJttPhzq6ek6iocO8sWzA9kfMw@mail.gmail.com>
	<1320704394.88364.YahooMailNeo@web160606.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<1320708471.32907.YahooMailNeo@web112112.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armiKgLTdh9kXbsT6_38XF-=RTmssMf-Xq+u7MnfdSdYGoQ@mail.gmail.com>

2011/11/7 Dennis May wrote:
> A guy I went to college with worked on Pegasus
> sometime during in the 1985-1987 time frame.
>
> Same idea more or less.
>


Um, I think DARPA know about that.

They issued an interim report in June 2011 to assist bidders that
detailed about 150 earlier attempts at this idea.

See:
<http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blogs/defense/index.jsp?plckController=Blog&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&newspaperUserId=27ec4a53-dcc8-42d0-bd3a-01329aef79a7&plckPostId=Blog%3a27ec4a53-dcc8-42d0-bd3a-01329aef79a7Post%3a0427b302-0de4-49b6-988d-1dc834390f7e&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest>


BillK



From atymes at gmail.com  Tue Nov  8 01:36:38 2011
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2011 17:36:38 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Launching Satellites from Airplanes DARPA
In-Reply-To: <1320704394.88364.YahooMailNeo@web160606.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <CAL_armikZODFsq7=d3LtZ221uJttPhzq6ek6iocO8sWzA9kfMw@mail.gmail.com>
	<1320704394.88364.YahooMailNeo@web160606.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNQyNiRznDgfcaHG6TqJRVojCZ-S+3rnubZU5N_-Ejeqwg@mail.gmail.com>

They're trying to improve on it.

Heck, *I'm* trying to improve on it.  One of my side projects,
CubeCab, is to rip off and downsize the concept to launch
single CubeSats for a few tens of thousands of dollars.  It
doesn't do any wonders for the per-unit-mass launch price,
but rather, by keeping the payload mass down, the total
mission price becomes affordable to a lot more players -
and the turnaround time becomes something they can
stomach, too: days or weeks instead of years.

2011/11/7 Dan <dan_ust at yahoo.com>:
> Isn't this idea already implemented:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pegasus_%28rocket%29
>
> Regards,
>
> Dan
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>


From spike66 at att.net  Tue Nov  8 02:20:54 2011
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2011 18:20:54 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Launching Satellites from Airplanes DARPA
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNQyNiRznDgfcaHG6TqJRVojCZ-S+3rnubZU5N_-Ejeqwg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armikZODFsq7=d3LtZ221uJttPhzq6ek6iocO8sWzA9kfMw@mail.gmail.com>	<1320704394.88364.YahooMailNeo@web160606.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<CALAdGNQyNiRznDgfcaHG6TqJRVojCZ-S+3rnubZU5N_-Ejeqwg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <008501cc9dbd$0b842090$228c61b0$@att.net>


>... On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes
Subject: Re: [ExI] Launching Satellites from Airplanes DARPA

>...They're trying to improve on it.

>...Heck, *I'm* trying to improve on it.  One of my side projects, CubeCab,
is to rip off and downsize the concept to launch single CubeSats for a few
tens of thousands of dollars.  It doesn't do any wonders for the
per-unit-mass launch price, but rather, by keeping the payload mass down,
the total mission price becomes affordable to a lot more players - and the
turnaround time becomes something they can stomach, too: days or weeks
instead of years.


My own experience with it is that the problem doesn't scale down very well.
Every design I have derived has the cost per kg to LEO increasing
dramatically once the total payload goes much below 1000 kg.  I am cheering
wildly for anyone who can get those costs down.

spike



From eugen at leitl.org  Tue Nov  8 07:17:22 2011
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 08:17:22 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Launching Satellites from Airplanes DARPA
In-Reply-To: <1320708471.32907.YahooMailNeo@web112112.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <CAL_armikZODFsq7=d3LtZ221uJttPhzq6ek6iocO8sWzA9kfMw@mail.gmail.com>
	<1320704394.88364.YahooMailNeo@web160606.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<1320708471.32907.YahooMailNeo@web112112.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20111108071722.GH31847@leitl.org>

On Mon, Nov 07, 2011 at 03:27:51PM -0800, Dennis May wrote:
> A guy I went to college with worked on Pegasus 
> sometime during in the 1985-1987 time frame.

Newer ideas go into directions of a maglev launch
platform releasing a 100 t payload, with subsequent
scramjet/rocket ascent to LEO, potentially single-stage.

-- 
Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE


From eugen at leitl.org  Tue Nov  8 07:28:10 2011
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 08:28:10 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Launching Satellites from Airplanes DARPA
In-Reply-To: <008501cc9dbd$0b842090$228c61b0$@att.net>
References: <CAL_armikZODFsq7=d3LtZ221uJttPhzq6ek6iocO8sWzA9kfMw@mail.gmail.com>
	<1320704394.88364.YahooMailNeo@web160606.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<CALAdGNQyNiRznDgfcaHG6TqJRVojCZ-S+3rnubZU5N_-Ejeqwg@mail.gmail.com>
	<008501cc9dbd$0b842090$228c61b0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <20111108072810.GJ31847@leitl.org>

On Mon, Nov 07, 2011 at 06:20:54PM -0800, spike wrote:

> My own experience with it is that the problem doesn't scale down very well.
> Every design I have derived has the cost per kg to LEO increasing
> dramatically once the total payload goes much below 1000 kg.  I am cheering
> wildly for anyone who can get those costs down.

A ton to LEO can go a long way. https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/SMART-1

-- 
Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE


From pharos at gmail.com  Tue Nov  8 08:07:37 2011
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 08:07:37 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Launching Satellites from Airplanes DARPA
In-Reply-To: <20111108072810.GJ31847@leitl.org>
References: <CAL_armikZODFsq7=d3LtZ221uJttPhzq6ek6iocO8sWzA9kfMw@mail.gmail.com>
	<1320704394.88364.YahooMailNeo@web160606.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<CALAdGNQyNiRznDgfcaHG6TqJRVojCZ-S+3rnubZU5N_-Ejeqwg@mail.gmail.com>
	<008501cc9dbd$0b842090$228c61b0$@att.net>
	<20111108072810.GJ31847@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <CAL_armi1CcikPdkqWUa3HYrnL30ZZTeD8aPTfz1dXHdv1OJqzw@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Nov 8, 2011 at 7:28 AM, Eugen Leitl  wrote:
> A ton to LEO can go a long way. https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/SMART-1
>
>


Don't you mean a tonne to LEO?

(Just to tickle Spike's units funnybone).    ;)


BillK


From spike66 at att.net  Tue Nov  8 13:03:42 2011
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 05:03:42 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Launching Satellites from Airplanes DARPA
In-Reply-To: <20111108072810.GJ31847@leitl.org>
References: <CAL_armikZODFsq7=d3LtZ221uJttPhzq6ek6iocO8sWzA9kfMw@mail.gmail.com>	<1320704394.88364.YahooMailNeo@web160606.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>	<CALAdGNQyNiRznDgfcaHG6TqJRVojCZ-S+3rnubZU5N_-Ejeqwg@mail.gmail.com>	<008501cc9dbd$0b842090$228c61b0$@att.net>
	<20111108072810.GJ31847@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <00c101cc9e16$d7e0e110$87a2a330$@att.net>

>... On Behalf Of Eugen Leitl
Subject: Re: [ExI] Launching Satellites from Airplanes DARPA

On Mon, Nov 07, 2011 at 06:20:54PM -0800, spike wrote:

>> My own experience with it is that the problem doesn't scale down very
well.
> Every design I have derived has the cost per kg to LEO increasing 
> dramatically once the total payload goes much below 1000 kg.  I am 
> cheering wildly for anyone who can get those costs down.

>...A ton to LEO can go a long way.
https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/SMART-1

Agreed, but my own favorite idea for a payload is only a few tens of grams.


My best efforts at a very small rocket yielded a puzzling outcome: once you
get much below about a ton, the rocket mass and cost don't go down much
more.  It takes about the same rocket to hoist 1 kg as it takes to hoist
100.  At some point, the flight controls problem doesn't scale down, rather
it starts to scale up.  Smaller rockets take more computing power to keep
them flying pointy-end-first: the feedback loop needs to be faster.

spike 






From dennislmay at yahoo.com  Tue Nov  8 13:07:21 2011
From: dennislmay at yahoo.com (Dennis May)
Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 05:07:21 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ExI] Towards a Biological Cell Operating System
Message-ID: <1320757641.10402.YahooMailNeo@web112114.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

Easily 'Re-Programmable Cells' Could Be Key in Creation of New Life Forms
?
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/11/111107162223.htm
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From spike66 at att.net  Tue Nov  8 13:18:06 2011
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 05:18:06 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Launching Satellites from Airplanes DARPA
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armi1CcikPdkqWUa3HYrnL30ZZTeD8aPTfz1dXHdv1OJqzw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armikZODFsq7=d3LtZ221uJttPhzq6ek6iocO8sWzA9kfMw@mail.gmail.com>	<1320704394.88364.YahooMailNeo@web160606.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>	<CALAdGNQyNiRznDgfcaHG6TqJRVojCZ-S+3rnubZU5N_-Ejeqwg@mail.gmail.com>	<008501cc9dbd$0b842090$228c61b0$@att.net>	<20111108072810.GJ31847@leitl.org>
	<CAL_armi1CcikPdkqWUa3HYrnL30ZZTeD8aPTfz1dXHdv1OJqzw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00cb01cc9e18$db1daaa0$9158ffe0$@att.net>

>> A ton to LEO can go a long way.
https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/SMART-1

>Don't you mean a tonne to LEO?

>(Just to tickle Spike's units funnybone).    ;)  BillK

Harrrr.   {8-]

I forget which is which.  Commonly today, even in the US, a ton is a 1000
kg.  If they mean the other, it is called a short ton, which is about 900kg
or 2000 pounds mass as measured in a 1 g field.

Since we are on the subject of funnybones, something involving England
happened yesterday.  The European Team chess championships are taking place
currently in Greece.  The British team is surprisingly anemic.  They came in
at tenth seed with a strong young team, but were trounced by a bunch of
small countries that no one has ever heard of, such as "Romania" and
"Georgia."  Retract, I think we had a US president from "Georgia."  But that
"Romania" thing must be one of those fictitious places like Narnia or Tannu
Tuva.  

Yesterday, one of the chatterers made an offhanded comment "Has anyone seen
the British chess team?" as a snarky way of saying: we usually see better
performance by them, perhaps someone kidnapped them and put these guys in
their place.  Someone else got the gag and commented "Their team captain is
frantically searching for them."   Both of those posters were on the scene
in Greece.  Then the transmission unexpectedly went dead: nothing coming
from that server.  A wild rumor circulated from those two comments that the
British chess team was unaccounted for, setting off a flurry of inquiry,
since the server trouble had blocked transmission of all four of their
games.  Perhaps they had been apprehended by a group of local Presbyterian
militants?  People were trying to contact anyone at the scene to verify the
Brits were OK.  I didn't partake in it: I figure if some security breach had
resulted in any of the teams being actually missing in action or unaccounted
for, they would not have continued the tournament.

The Brits were found alive and well when the server came back up, playing
chess right there in the hall.

spike



From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Tue Nov  8 13:39:38 2011
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 14:39:38 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Launching Satellites from Airplanes DARPA
In-Reply-To: <20111108071722.GH31847@leitl.org>
References: <CAL_armikZODFsq7=d3LtZ221uJttPhzq6ek6iocO8sWzA9kfMw@mail.gmail.com>
	<1320704394.88364.YahooMailNeo@web160606.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<1320708471.32907.YahooMailNeo@web112112.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<20111108071722.GH31847@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a4ENp2cA=VHj37=KoxaUmHUu+SQ7MW0MCTRUS7UGvrPCg@mail.gmail.com>

On 8 November 2011 08:17, Eugen Leitl <eugen at leitl.org> wrote:

> On Mon, Nov 07, 2011 at 03:27:51PM -0800, Dennis May wrote:
> > A guy I went to college with worked on Pegasus
> > sometime during in the 1985-1987 time frame.
>
> Newer ideas go into directions of a maglev launch
> platform releasing a 100 t payload, with subsequent
> scramjet/rocket ascent to LEO, potentially single-stage.
>

*This* would indeed be cool...

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From dennislmay at yahoo.com  Tue Nov  8 13:54:35 2011
From: dennislmay at yahoo.com (Dennis May)
Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 05:54:35 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ExI] Launching Satellites from Airplanes DARPA
In-Reply-To: <00c101cc9e16$d7e0e110$87a2a330$@att.net>
References: <CAL_armikZODFsq7=d3LtZ221uJttPhzq6ek6iocO8sWzA9kfMw@mail.gmail.com>
	<1320704394.88364.YahooMailNeo@web160606.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<CALAdGNQyNiRznDgfcaHG6TqJRVojCZ-S+3rnubZU5N_-Ejeqwg@mail.gmail.com>
	<008501cc9dbd$0b842090$228c61b0$@att.net>
	<20111108072810.GJ31847@leitl.org>
	<00c101cc9e16$d7e0e110$87a2a330$@att.net>
Message-ID: <1320760475.33037.YahooMailNeo@web112112.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

Spike wrote:
?
> Agreed, but my own favorite idea for a payload is only a few tens of grams.
?
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Ice_Station/message/473
?
This is a link in the discussion of using E&M coilguns to
launch what I called Needle-Satellites from high altitude
aircraft.? Something for the tens of grams launches Spike
is interested in.
?
Dennis May


________________________________
From: spike <spike66 at att.net>
To: 'ExI chat list' <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 8, 2011 7:03 AM
Subject: Re: [ExI] Launching Satellites from Airplanes DARPA

>... On Behalf Of Eugen Leitl
Subject: Re: [ExI] Launching Satellites from Airplanes DARPA

On Mon, Nov 07, 2011 at 06:20:54PM -0800, spike wrote:

>> My own experience with it is that the problem doesn't scale down very
well.
> Every design I have derived has the cost per kg to LEO increasing 
> dramatically once the total payload goes much below 1000 kg.? I am 
> cheering wildly for anyone who can get those costs down.

>...A ton to LEO can go a long way.
https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/SMART-1

Agreed, but my own favorite idea for a payload is only a few tens of grams.


My best efforts at a very small rocket yielded a puzzling outcome: once you
get much below about a ton, the rocket mass and cost don't go down much
more.? It takes about the same rocket to hoist 1 kg as it takes to hoist
100.? At some point, the flight controls problem doesn't scale down, rather
it starts to scale up.? Smaller rockets take more computing power to keep
them flying pointy-end-first: the feedback loop needs to be faster.

spike 




_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
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From sjv2006 at gmail.com  Tue Nov  8 18:22:40 2011
From: sjv2006 at gmail.com (Stephen Van Sickle)
Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 11:22:40 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Launching Satellites from Airplanes DARPA
In-Reply-To: <00c101cc9e16$d7e0e110$87a2a330$@att.net>
References: <CAL_armikZODFsq7=d3LtZ221uJttPhzq6ek6iocO8sWzA9kfMw@mail.gmail.com>
	<1320704394.88364.YahooMailNeo@web160606.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<CALAdGNQyNiRznDgfcaHG6TqJRVojCZ-S+3rnubZU5N_-Ejeqwg@mail.gmail.com>
	<008501cc9dbd$0b842090$228c61b0$@att.net>
	<20111108072810.GJ31847@leitl.org>
	<00c101cc9e16$d7e0e110$87a2a330$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CADYziYDf4tiOJcG1Vc-bi=edR7QwhqU_+3mjKRK2uagJa7RiRA@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Nov 07, 2011 at 06:20:54PM -0800, spike wrote:
>
> >> My own experience with it is that the problem doesn't scale down very
> well.
> > Every design I have derived has the cost per kg to LEO increasing
> > dramatically once the total payload goes much below 1000 kg.  I am
> > cheering wildly for anyone who can get those costs down.
>

Are you familiar with Jordin Kare's Mockingbird?

http://www.quantumg.net/mockingbird.pdf

-sjv
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From atymes at gmail.com  Tue Nov  8 20:35:35 2011
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 12:35:35 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Launching Satellites from Airplanes DARPA
In-Reply-To: <CADYziYDf4tiOJcG1Vc-bi=edR7QwhqU_+3mjKRK2uagJa7RiRA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armikZODFsq7=d3LtZ221uJttPhzq6ek6iocO8sWzA9kfMw@mail.gmail.com>
	<1320704394.88364.YahooMailNeo@web160606.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<CALAdGNQyNiRznDgfcaHG6TqJRVojCZ-S+3rnubZU5N_-Ejeqwg@mail.gmail.com>
	<008501cc9dbd$0b842090$228c61b0$@att.net>
	<20111108072810.GJ31847@leitl.org>
	<00c101cc9e16$d7e0e110$87a2a330$@att.net>
	<CADYziYDf4tiOJcG1Vc-bi=edR7QwhqU_+3mjKRK2uagJa7RiRA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNQfpjNybDCiwnDd3gwtPiG0TgNv-h-Edm8Qpxig2RPLxA@mail.gmail.com>

2011/11/8 Stephen Van Sickle <sjv2006 at gmail.com>:
> Are you familiar with Jordin Kare's Mockingbird?
> http://www.quantumg.net/mockingbird.pdf

It's an interesting idea, and not too far from what's being
proposed these days.  But that was proposed in 1994,
and it doesn't seem to have left the drawing board.

Its main problem appears to have been, it was
proposed to the government.  It would not result in huge
profits to government contractors, therefore it was not
funded.

IMO, the only chance something like that has to be
developed, is under circumstances where it doesn't need
the government to fund it.  Otherwise, history shows that
the funding dries up at critical moments, or never gets
approved to begin with.


From spike66 at att.net  Tue Nov  8 22:35:37 2011
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 14:35:37 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Launching Satellites from Airplanes DARPA
In-Reply-To: <CADYziYDf4tiOJcG1Vc-bi=edR7QwhqU_+3mjKRK2uagJa7RiRA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armikZODFsq7=d3LtZ221uJttPhzq6ek6iocO8sWzA9kfMw@mail.gmail.com>	<1320704394.88364.YahooMailNeo@web160606.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>	<CALAdGNQyNiRznDgfcaHG6TqJRVojCZ-S+3rnubZU5N_-Ejeqwg@mail.gmail.com>	<008501cc9dbd$0b842090$228c61b0$@att.net>	<20111108072810.GJ31847@leitl.org>	<00c101cc9e16$d7e0e110$87a2a330$@att.net>
	<CADYziYDf4tiOJcG1Vc-bi=edR7QwhqU_+3mjKRK2uagJa7RiRA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <014d01cc9e66$bd27d9a0$37778ce0$@att.net>

 

 

From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Stephen Van
Sickle
Sent: Tuesday, November 08, 2011 10:23 AM
To: ExI chat list
Subject: Re: [ExI] Launching Satellites from Airplanes DARPA

 

 

On Mon, Nov 07, 2011 at 06:20:54PM -0800, spike wrote:

>> My own experience with it is that the problem doesn't scale down very
well.
> Every design I have derived has the cost per kg to LEO increasing
> dramatically once the total payload goes much below 1000 kg.  I am
> cheering wildly for anyone who can get those costs down.

 

>Are you familiar with Jordin Kare's Mockingbird?

 

>http://www.quantumg.net/mockingbird.pdf

 

>-sjv

 

I am.  This and several other small SSTOs were the hot topic of conversation
at the Society of Allied Weight Engineers conferences back about 15 yrs ago.
Actually it is a good illustration of the original concept and my own
conviction from years of discussion on that: anything you can do with one
stage can be done better with two.

 

Kare's notion of an all-recoverable SSTO was never realized.  Note that this
pitch is 17 years old this month.  We still don't have anything like it.

 

spike

 

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From anders at aleph.se  Tue Nov  8 23:23:40 2011
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2011 23:23:40 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Towards a Biological Cell Operating System
In-Reply-To: <1320757641.10402.YahooMailNeo@web112114.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <1320757641.10402.YahooMailNeo@web112114.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4EB9B9FC.8030909@aleph.se>

Dennis May wrote:
> Easily 'Re-Programmable Cells' Could Be Key in Creation of New Life Forms
>  
> http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/11/111107162223.htm

Of course, this sounds a lot like what Craig Venter is aiming for.

It is going to be fun to see what they do when they actually do research 
and not just boast to get grant money... because right now it all seems 
to be a press release about getting the grant from EPSRC.

-- 
Anders Sandberg,
Future of Humanity Institute 
Oxford Martin School 
Faculty of Philosophy 
Oxford University 



From anders at aleph.se  Tue Nov  8 23:28:45 2011
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2011 23:28:45 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Getting lost in plain sight
In-Reply-To: <00cb01cc9e18$db1daaa0$9158ffe0$@att.net>
References: <CAL_armikZODFsq7=d3LtZ221uJttPhzq6ek6iocO8sWzA9kfMw@mail.gmail.com>	<1320704394.88364.YahooMailNeo@web160606.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>	<CALAdGNQyNiRznDgfcaHG6TqJRVojCZ-S+3rnubZU5N_-Ejeqwg@mail.gmail.com>	<008501cc9dbd$0b842090$228c61b0$@att.net>	<20111108072810.GJ31847@leitl.org>	<CAL_armi1CcikPdkqWUa3HYrnL30ZZTeD8aPTfz1dXHdv1OJqzw@mail.gmail.com>
	<00cb01cc9e18$db1daaa0$9158ffe0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <4EB9BB2D.3010403@aleph.se>

spike wrote:
> The Brits were found alive and well when the server came back up, playing
> chess right there in the hall.
>   

I guess this shows the extent we have become dependent on our digital 
senses. I am reminded of the robots in the webcomic Freefall, who have 
discovered that by switching transponder chips they can become 
"invisible" or "shapeshift" in the perception of each other.

-- 
Anders Sandberg,
Future of Humanity Institute 
Oxford Martin School 
Faculty of Philosophy 
Oxford University 



From spike66 at att.net  Tue Nov  8 23:42:39 2011
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 15:42:39 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Getting lost in plain sight
In-Reply-To: <4EB9BB2D.3010403@aleph.se>
References: <CAL_armikZODFsq7=d3LtZ221uJttPhzq6ek6iocO8sWzA9kfMw@mail.gmail.com>	<1320704394.88364.YahooMailNeo@web160606.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>	<CALAdGNQyNiRznDgfcaHG6TqJRVojCZ-S+3rnubZU5N_-Ejeqwg@mail.gmail.com>	<008501cc9dbd$0b842090$228c61b0$@att.net>	<20111108072810.GJ31847@leitl.org>	<CAL_armi1CcikPdkqWUa3HYrnL30ZZTeD8aPTfz1dXHdv1OJqzw@mail.gmail.com>	<00cb01cc9e18$db1daaa0$9158ffe0$@att.net>
	<4EB9BB2D.3010403@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <000801cc9e70$1ad934f0$508b9ed0$@att.net>


>... On Behalf Of Anders Sandberg
Subject: [ExI] Getting lost in plain sight

spike wrote:
>> The Brits were found alive and well when the server came back up, 
>> playing chess right there in the hall.
   

>...I guess this shows the extent we have become dependent on our digital
senses. I am reminded of the robots in the webcomic Freefall, who have
discovered that by switching transponder chips they can become "invisible"
or "shapeshift" in the perception of each other.  --  Anders Sandberg

Ja.  Many are on edge at any international sports event.  The Israelis are
heavily guarded at all times, but most of the other teams have no special
security measures.  This tournament is in Greece, which is having its
temporary budget difficulties I understand, so if the Brits or Danes even
sneeze, the rest of the world jumps.  When any on-site spectator makes a
comment like "Has anyone seen the British team?" and "The team captain is
frantically searching for them" right when the data link goes down, the
worry-meter goes off scale.

spike





From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Wed Nov  9 06:54:22 2011
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 23:54:22 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The U.S. will no longer dominate science and research,
 says Penn State scientist
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy2bCaYpev+=06jc3ENJfKHMqWVxRRVKQ+kZDr0WHrQ7bw@mail.gmail.com>

I think a balance between competition and cooperation in this area may be a
good thing for the world, so even if we ignore a particular field of study,
someone else might not.  I wonder if U.S. leaders will become alarmed
enough to greatly increase funding due to a desire to continue dominating
scientific research...


http://www.kurzweilai.net/us-will-no-longer-dominate-science-and-research-says-penn-state-scientist


John
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From amon at doctrinezero.com  Wed Nov  9 12:06:22 2011
From: amon at doctrinezero.com (Amon Zero)
Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2011 12:06:22 +0000
Subject: [ExI] REVOLUTION NOW! all-thing.org
Message-ID: <CAAoBNdX9dh9BfN55sT7b+=4vqvW_MDE85ctVBrSi-yuJ+gW=kg@mail.gmail.com>

http://transhumanpraxis.wordpress.com/2011/11/09/revolution-now-all-thing-org/

-- 
*Anti-Capitalist Transhumanism* : *ZERO STATE* : http://zerostate.net**
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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Wed Nov  9 14:06:51 2011
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2011 15:06:51 +0100
Subject: [ExI] The U.S. will no longer dominate science and research,
 says Penn State scientist
In-Reply-To: <CAGSKFy2bCaYpev+=06jc3ENJfKHMqWVxRRVKQ+kZDr0WHrQ7bw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGSKFy2bCaYpev+=06jc3ENJfKHMqWVxRRVKQ+kZDr0WHrQ7bw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a6oWUq_wr1PoQcUQ7nNvzyDtV-h9nCzmT6mZcWoBKPWWA@mail.gmail.com>

2011/11/9 John Grigg <possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com>:
> I think a balance between competition and cooperation in this area?may be a
> good thing for the world, so even if we ignore a particular field of study,
> someone else might not.? I wonder if U.S. leaders will become alarmed enough
> to greatly increase funding due to a desire to continue dominating
> scientific research...

In fact, I am opposed to globalisation and weary of fantasies of
global governance because not only a more pluralistic world gives us
more chances in comparison with the option of putting all the eggs in
the same basket, but also because *all* systems are kept more
efficient and "honest" by competitive and Darwinian pressures
operating on them...

Speaking of papers, however, one should still see whether we are
speaking of actually relevant technoscientific stuff, or just new
variants of  "business methods" ? la Ponzi or postmodernist literary
critics... :-)

-- 
Stefano Vaj



From natasha at natasha.cc  Wed Nov  9 15:08:11 2011
From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More)
Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2011 09:08:11 -0600
Subject: [ExI] REVOLUTION NOW! all-thing.org
In-Reply-To: <CAAoBNdX9dh9BfN55sT7b+=4vqvW_MDE85ctVBrSi-yuJ+gW=kg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAoBNdX9dh9BfN55sT7b+=4vqvW_MDE85ctVBrSi-yuJ+gW=kg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C6AA16CEE08D45A7B0EBC1D1B0C385D3@DFC68LF1>

I never equated capitalism with postmodernism. Postmodernists seem to be,
for the most part, opposed to the Enlightenment, scientific realism, and
universal truths. Most postmodernists are liberals (in the US anyway) and
are adamant about social rights, cyborg feminism and enjoy theoretical
critiques of posthuman futures. While the rhetoric of postmodernists is
confusing to understand, it does have a poetic quality that takes the mind
off into realms of contradictions that is both down right confusing and
somehow strangely delightful.
 
I think one of the problems with postmodernism and capitalism is that their
ideologies and other belief systems are not codified and there are numerous
strains of thinking within both domains.  So, it is quite difficult to
ascribe a set of principles to either. (Although Foucault, and his liberal
arts adherents might disagree.)
 
 

Natasha

 

 <http://www.natasha.cc/> Natasha Vita-More

PhD Researcher, Univ. of Plymouth, UK
Chair, <http://humanityplus.org/>  Humanity+

Co-Editor, The Transhumanist Reader

 

  _____  

From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Amon Zero
Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2011 6:06 AM
To: extrobritannia at yahoogroups.com; ExI chat list; World Transhumanist
Association Discussion List; technoprogressive at yahoogroups.com;
transumanisti; transhumanistes at yahoogroupes.fr; Doctrine Zero
Subject: [ExI] REVOLUTION NOW! all-thing.org


http://transhumanpraxis.wordpress.com/2011/11/09/revolution-now-all-thing-or
g/


-- 
Anti-Capitalist Transhumanism : ZERO STATE :  <http://zerostate.net>
http://zerostate.net



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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Wed Nov  9 18:06:09 2011
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2011 19:06:09 +0100
Subject: [ExI] REVOLUTION NOW! all-thing.org
In-Reply-To: <C6AA16CEE08D45A7B0EBC1D1B0C385D3@DFC68LF1>
References: <CAAoBNdX9dh9BfN55sT7b+=4vqvW_MDE85ctVBrSi-yuJ+gW=kg@mail.gmail.com>
	<C6AA16CEE08D45A7B0EBC1D1B0C385D3@DFC68LF1>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a7UVn9D84CypNKax1+Ua_ds3jYE8Lc6BghsyMo9woEGzQ@mail.gmail.com>

2011/11/9 Natasha Vita-More <natasha at natasha.cc>

> **
> I never equated capitalism with postmodernism. Postmodernists seem to be,
> for the most part, opposed to the Enlightenment, scientific realism, and
> universal truths.
>

I have my own doubts that in order to do technoscience or be a staunch
supporter thereof one really needs to adhere acritically to any of those
narratives...

I think however that the "tout se vaut" attitude of some postmodernists
derives from an *insufficiently radical* form of relativism, which does not
realise that positing a value equivalence of different epistemological or
axiological views implies that some objective common meter to measure them
would exist.

Full-fledged relativism, OTOH, is well aware that since even critical
theorists are not a disembodied entities they ultimately have to adhere to
one worldview or another, and base their value or epistemological judgments
on it, the main difference with naive objectivism being that its being
theirs does not really require that it be "superior" in any absolute sense.

I think that this stance allows one to be both to support unashamedly one's
ideas, *and* to avoid considering all those who do not share them as
idiots, "sinners", or just "primitives". Especially given that, at least in
my reality, Darwinist mechanisms are at work amongst worldviews, so that at
least the worst and most obstinate forms of collective hallucinations tend
to have rather short historical lifespans.

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From sjatkins at mac.com  Wed Nov  9 23:05:53 2011
From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2011 15:05:53 -0800
Subject: [ExI] REVOLUTION NOW! all-thing.org
In-Reply-To: <CAAoBNdX9dh9BfN55sT7b+=4vqvW_MDE85ctVBrSi-yuJ+gW=kg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAoBNdX9dh9BfN55sT7b+=4vqvW_MDE85ctVBrSi-yuJ+gW=kg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4EBB0751.5080900@mac.com>

On 11/09/2011 04:06 AM, Amon Zero wrote:
> http://transhumanpraxis.wordpress.com/2011/11/09/revolution-now-all-thing-org/
>
> -- 
> /Anti-Capitalist Transhumanism/ : *ZERO STATE* : http://zerostate.net
>
>

Is that what you are saying Zero State is now, avowedly 
anti-capitalist?  Then I am very glad I left.  This is despicable.

- samantha

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From seculartranshumanist at gmail.com  Wed Nov  9 23:49:20 2011
From: seculartranshumanist at gmail.com (Joseph Bloch)
Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2011 18:49:20 -0500
Subject: [ExI] REVOLUTION NOW! all-thing.org
In-Reply-To: <4EBB0751.5080900@mac.com>
References: <CAAoBNdX9dh9BfN55sT7b+=4vqvW_MDE85ctVBrSi-yuJ+gW=kg@mail.gmail.com>
	<4EBB0751.5080900@mac.com>
Message-ID: <CAOFRd6i1o3nt+h1jWozGSh4XHiPiBMdh3zoWM6J1GGHSff-8+g@mail.gmail.com>

2011/11/9 Samantha Atkins <sjatkins at mac.com>:

>
> Is that what you are saying Zero State is now, avowedly anti-capitalist?
> Then I am very glad I left.? This is despicable.

Agreed. I'm glad they've stopped being coy about their true nature at last.

Joseph



From spike66 at att.net  Thu Nov 10 01:05:06 2011
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2011 17:05:06 -0800
Subject: [ExI] REVOLUTION NOW! all-thing.org
In-Reply-To: <4EBB0751.5080900@mac.com>
References: <CAAoBNdX9dh9BfN55sT7b+=4vqvW_MDE85ctVBrSi-yuJ+gW=kg@mail.gmail.com>
	<4EBB0751.5080900@mac.com>
Message-ID: <012d01cc9f44$c97a9bf0$5c6fd3d0$@att.net>

On 11/09/2011 04:06 AM, Amon Zero wrote: 

http://transhumanpraxis.wordpress.com/2011/11/09/revolution-now-all-thing-or
g/


-- 
Anti-Capitalist Transhumanism : ZERO STATE :  <http://zerostate.net>
http://zerostate.net

 

Quote from the site:

>.Anti-Capitalism is an idea that perturbs many, because it represents the
diagnosis of a problem without the offer of a solution. "What would these
people replace Capitalism with?"

 

 

I have a suggestion for a system to replace capitalism.  Unfettered
capitalism.

spike

 

 

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From spike66 at att.net  Thu Nov 10 04:42:02 2011
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2011 20:42:02 -0800
Subject: [ExI] one molecule car
Message-ID: <016e01cc9f63$18101e70$48305b50$@att.net>

Hey cool, the K.Eric told us a long time ago that we would have stuff like
this:

 

http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/104347-one-molecule-nanocar-takes-a-test-
drive

 

 

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From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Thu Nov 10 05:13:32 2011
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2011 21:13:32 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ExI] Monetary Evolution Now! was REVOLUTION NOW!
In-Reply-To: <012d01cc9f44$c97a9bf0$5c6fd3d0$@att.net>
References: <CAAoBNdX9dh9BfN55sT7b+=4vqvW_MDE85ctVBrSi-yuJ+gW=kg@mail.gmail.com>
	<4EBB0751.5080900@mac.com>
	<012d01cc9f44$c97a9bf0$5c6fd3d0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <1320902012.66049.YahooMailNeo@web65604.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

>________________________________
>From: spike <spike66 at att.net>
>To: 'ExI chat list' <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
>Sent: Wednesday, November 9, 2011 5:05 PM
>Subject: Re: [ExI] REVOLUTION NOW! all-thing.org

>I have a suggestion for a system to replace capitalism.? Unfettered capitalism.

Interestingly, this has been the topic of debate between myself and an economics student at the University of Nevada for some time now. I can pretty much some up where we, myself a left-leaning libertarian biologist and him a right-leaning libertarian economist, have found common ground as follows:
?
Spike's suggestion is rendered politically impossible by our ape heritage. What the average economist or indeed conservative is either ignorant of or refuses to believe is that every child is born into the world with a significant proportion of the population, a ravenous crowd thousands if not millions strong,?fully intent on exploiting, oppressing, cheating,?and manipulating him in every possible way without ever having to meet him or learn his name.
?
There be energy-parasites and in the case of criminals, energy-predators?that are looking for *you* and?anybody else they can prey on.
?
Economists refuse to see the alpha-males and banana thieves in the likes of Carlos Slim, Bernie Madoff,?and Mayer Amschel Bauer Rothschild?that, in the case of Rothchild moved him to say, "Give me control of a nation's money and I care not who makes it's laws". Such individuals skew?economists equations?away from rationality and into the realm of politics.
?
To put it succinctly, the?current?Federal Reserve and debt-back Fractional Reserve Banking model as well as the numerous other chest pounding alpha-male?threats we call legislation?make unfettered capitalism?impossible and speculatory bubbles and national deficits inevitable. If you have a system where the only way?some people, such as a proportion of the elderly?can eat is if they borrow money from others to buy food, or be enrolled in some government-sponsored entitlement program,?then?it is practically ineveitable that one has a national debt. Add to that the costs of?government-subsidized housing and health-care and well you get?a national debt and?cost of living?that continue to escalate even as economists cheerily?blather about boundless growth in better economic times.?
?
The only way to make?unfettered capitalism?possible is to take control of the money-supply?away from the few and put it into the?hands of all or none.
?
Notice, I said the *money supply* not the money itself.?The market?ought to control the money and its flow to and?between individuals but should do so unfettered by politics.?Also note that I did not suggest that gold or any other?material substance back the currency as that is not progress but a return to an even worsely?flawed system?since gold and practically any other substance is currently monopolized to a greater extent than cash is.
?
Instead my economist friend and I agree on?some reforms that should make the market free once and for all?and unfetter capitalism:
?
1. Labor-backed currency. For an economy of scale, there are only *two* effectively unlimited resources in the entire universe: labor?and time.?If you base your economy on a naturally-limited commodity like gold, oil, or some such, then ineveitably?a significant portion of the population?will *not* be able meet their Lazlo's hierarchy of needs without going further and further into debt?to those who own large amounts of that commodity. Similarly, a debt-based economy?like we currently have allows government to print money at a whim, give it to?a handfull of privileged bankers, and allows them to further leverage that vaporous?money?twenty-fold turning your debt to their profit and acting as the gatekeepers to your?ability to produce wealth. This is expressly *not* what Adam Smith and founding fathers had in mind.
?
One thing that could be done is base your currency on the two things that there is guaranteed to be an unlimited supply for as long as any government lasts:
?
Labor and time. Populations will continue to grow so long as an economy can evolve the means to sustain them. Furthermore a population-based money supply is self-limiting as you will not have many times more currency in circulation?at one time than what is required to sustain the overall standard of living?of said population.?Time must be brought into the equation because it reflects?productivity. The entropy of the universe always increases and as such entropy and time point in the same direction. Time is essential to measuring?the physical quantity that is literal work and therefore must itself contribute to the money supply.
?
Based upon this two fold argument the ideal basis for a?currency is literal man-hours. Every fiscal quarter, the?Federal Reserve?or Central Bank should total up the number of man-hours worked by?the country's labor-force the previous quarter, multiply that by a statitistic called the National Standard Wage (This is *not* a minimum wage!), and the?product should be the amount of money the?government prints?and loans to the banks at prime interest rates that fiscal quarter.
?
Note that this will couple the money supply directly to the economic growth of the country. Never again will more and more dollars chase fewer and fewer goods. Instead the number of all goods would determine the number of dollars in circulation. Furthermore note that this only determines the total money supply and not how much of that money supply that any individual earns. That should simply be allowed to float on the market based on the demand for ones skill-set.
?
2.?Completely privatize the Fed or Central Bank.?This is simple. Replace *all* entitlement programs with the ability for every working citizen to purchase stock in the central bank of their economy at market rates that are based on the international currency markets. Then allow those citizens to sell those shares back to either the?central bank or to another working citizen?during medical emergencies,?to settle debts, to fund their retirement, pay their taxes, etc.
?
It is not rocket science but I think this is good medicine that would?do wonders for?*any* economy. My friend, his name is Patrick, said that if Adam Smith and Karl Marx sat down in a room, they would agree this is a good reform. 
?
What are your thoughts? I especially would like suggestions on what to call this model of central banking? The Transparent Reserve model?
?
?
Stuart LaForge


?Institutions will try to preserve the problem to which they are the solution." -Clay Shirky



From amon at doctrinezero.com  Thu Nov 10 08:45:25 2011
From: amon at doctrinezero.com (Amon Zero)
Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 08:45:25 +0000
Subject: [ExI] REVOLUTION NOW! all-thing.org
In-Reply-To: <012d01cc9f44$c97a9bf0$5c6fd3d0$@att.net>
References: <CAAoBNdX9dh9BfN55sT7b+=4vqvW_MDE85ctVBrSi-yuJ+gW=kg@mail.gmail.com>
	<4EBB0751.5080900@mac.com>
	<012d01cc9f44$c97a9bf0$5c6fd3d0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAAoBNdW1JGyqzM2pzUp=SavA5fF_2_GvNU0F9Lqz=+e41=EXRA@mail.gmail.com>

2011/11/10 spike <spike66 at att.net>

> <http://zerostate.net>
>
> Quote from the site:
>
> >?Anti-Capitalism is an idea that perturbs many, because it represents the
> diagnosis of a problem without the offer of a solution. ?What would these
> people replace Capitalism *with*??****
>
> I have a suggestion for a system to replace capitalism.  Unfettered
> capitalism.
>

That is, of course, the Libertarian or anarch-Capitalist position.

It *could* work, I'll be the first to admit. And anything that works is
fine by me.

But can it actually happen? How? And what evidence do we have that it would
make things better, not worse?

These are sincere questions. People rightly criticise Anti-Cap protestors
for not suggesting or coherently arguing for viable alternatives... I agree
that such incoherent protest is in many ways worse than pointless... but
maybe other ideologies should be held to the same standard, no?
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From amon at doctrinezero.com  Thu Nov 10 08:49:17 2011
From: amon at doctrinezero.com (Amon Zero)
Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 08:49:17 +0000
Subject: [ExI] REVOLUTION NOW! all-thing.org
In-Reply-To: <CAOFRd6i1o3nt+h1jWozGSh4XHiPiBMdh3zoWM6J1GGHSff-8+g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAoBNdX9dh9BfN55sT7b+=4vqvW_MDE85ctVBrSi-yuJ+gW=kg@mail.gmail.com>
	<4EBB0751.5080900@mac.com>
	<CAOFRd6i1o3nt+h1jWozGSh4XHiPiBMdh3zoWM6J1GGHSff-8+g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAAoBNdVkv3aPyY3DU_DyBoNqR6iXCsQQYVv+EZupVizfj=98ng@mail.gmail.com>

On 9 November 2011 23:49, Joseph Bloch <seculartranshumanist at gmail.com>wrote:

> 2011/11/9 Samantha Atkins <sjatkins at mac.com>:
>
> > Is that what you are saying Zero State is now, avowedly anti-capitalist?
> > Then I am very glad I left.  This is despicable.
>
> Agreed. I'm glad they've stopped being coy about their true nature at last.
>
> Joseph
>

Well, I'd agree to the extent that I'm glad of a clarification. Far more
people who were already members of ZS seem to have agreed than I expected,
so in that sense at least it seems to have been a valid development.

I will just note that the word "coy" implies some kind of conspiracy to
hide an extant point of view. That's not really how this has been at all.
Rather, it was much more a case of I and others holding certain points of
view, having others (notably Samantha) pointing out that many of these
views were/are not compatible with various forms of Pro-Capitalism, and
conceding the point. Eventually it turned out to be easier to say we were,
what other people told us we were.

- A
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From giulio at gmail.com  Thu Nov 10 08:54:52 2011
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 09:54:52 +0100
Subject: [ExI] REVOLUTION NOW! all-thing.org
In-Reply-To: <CAAoBNdW1JGyqzM2pzUp=SavA5fF_2_GvNU0F9Lqz=+e41=EXRA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAoBNdX9dh9BfN55sT7b+=4vqvW_MDE85ctVBrSi-yuJ+gW=kg@mail.gmail.com>
	<4EBB0751.5080900@mac.com>
	<012d01cc9f44$c97a9bf0$5c6fd3d0$@att.net>
	<CAAoBNdW1JGyqzM2pzUp=SavA5fF_2_GvNU0F9Lqz=+e41=EXRA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKTCJyeTK4WdvR_=ZSg1KavVxLDE9LnfVVejw5rTAd+A45aXGA@mail.gmail.com>

Unfettered capitalism would work better than the current system.

In the current system, large corporations and banks buy their way to
de-facto monopoly, by bribing corrupted politicians and
administrators. This is _very_ far from a free market.

The current breed of capitalists pay lip service to the free market,
and the current breed of mainstream politicians pay lip service to
government oversight, but in practice they collaborate to keep things
exactly as they are.

There is a de-facto power monopoly of big corporations/banks and
corrupted big governments, _acting together_. The government that
zealot libertarians hate is owned by the same banks and corporations
that they worship.

2011/11/10 Amon Zero <amon at doctrinezero.com>:
> 2011/11/10 spike <spike66 at att.net>
>>
>> Quote from the site:
>>
>> >?Anti-Capitalism is an idea that perturbs many, because it represents the
>> > diagnosis of a problem without the offer of a solution. ?What would these
>> > people replace Capitalism with??
>>
>> I have a suggestion for a system to replace capitalism.? Unfettered
>> capitalism.
>
> That is, of course, the Libertarian or anarch-Capitalist position.
>
> It *could* work, I'll be the first to admit. And anything that works is fine
> by me.
>
> But can it actually happen? How? And what evidence do we have that it would
> make things better, not worse?
>
> These are sincere questions. People rightly criticise Anti-Cap protestors
> for not suggesting or coherently arguing for viable alternatives... I agree
> that such incoherent protest is in many ways worse than pointless... but
> maybe other ideologies should be held to the same standard, no?
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>



From amon at doctrinezero.com  Thu Nov 10 09:07:46 2011
From: amon at doctrinezero.com (Amon Zero)
Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 09:07:46 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Monetary Evolution Now! was REVOLUTION NOW!
In-Reply-To: <1320902012.66049.YahooMailNeo@web65604.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <CAAoBNdX9dh9BfN55sT7b+=4vqvW_MDE85ctVBrSi-yuJ+gW=kg@mail.gmail.com>
	<4EBB0751.5080900@mac.com>
	<012d01cc9f44$c97a9bf0$5c6fd3d0$@att.net>
	<1320902012.66049.YahooMailNeo@web65604.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAAoBNdXj2nurckU3_iOCpqa_4y0F=LfGMV-tWh3YAK3ru-+AQg@mail.gmail.com>

On 10 November 2011 05:13, The Avantguardian <avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com>wrote:

> >________________________________
> >From: spike <spike66 at att.net>
> >To: 'ExI chat list' <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> >Sent: Wednesday, November 9, 2011 5:05 PM
> >Subject: Re: [ExI] REVOLUTION NOW! all-thing.org
>
> >I have a suggestion for a system to replace capitalism.  Unfettered
> capitalism.
>
> Interestingly, this has been the topic of debate between myself and an
> economics student at the University of Nevada for some time now. I can
> pretty much some up where we, myself a left-leaning libertarian biologist
> and him a right-leaning libertarian economist, have found common ground as
> follows:
>

Wow, heaps to chew on there! Let me think on this one for a bit!

- A
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From amon at doctrinezero.com  Thu Nov 10 09:04:17 2011
From: amon at doctrinezero.com (Amon Zero)
Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 09:04:17 +0000
Subject: [ExI] REVOLUTION NOW! all-thing.org
In-Reply-To: <CAKTCJyeTK4WdvR_=ZSg1KavVxLDE9LnfVVejw5rTAd+A45aXGA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAoBNdX9dh9BfN55sT7b+=4vqvW_MDE85ctVBrSi-yuJ+gW=kg@mail.gmail.com>
	<4EBB0751.5080900@mac.com>
	<012d01cc9f44$c97a9bf0$5c6fd3d0$@att.net>
	<CAAoBNdW1JGyqzM2pzUp=SavA5fF_2_GvNU0F9Lqz=+e41=EXRA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAKTCJyeTK4WdvR_=ZSg1KavVxLDE9LnfVVejw5rTAd+A45aXGA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAAoBNdUA_z4ct=ekofk4Ui0Wf84KXtLfxWmUM=wgyj3H_zh8Sg@mail.gmail.com>

On 10 November 2011 08:54, Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:

>
> The current breed of capitalists pay lip service to the free market,
> and the current breed of mainstream politicians pay lip service to
> government oversight, but in practice they collaborate to keep things
> exactly as they are.
>

I agree, and on this point I think Anti-Cap and Anarcho-Cap should see
things the same way.

Although I have recently developed very deep reservations about
Libertarianism, I do think that Trade should be free. Where I differ from I
Libertarian, I suppose, is that I think that citizens should reserve the
right to change *any* system that isn't working.

On that basis, I can imagine an all-thing (concept from the blog post, for
those who haven't read it) advocating separation of trade and government,
which would presumably be a step toward Libertarianism. Minimizing
government in other ways strikes me as a good, thing too. The big
difference, however, is that if that just makes things worse (or bad in
some new, different way), then the people should have the option to change
gears again.

- A
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From amon at doctrinezero.com  Thu Nov 10 08:42:14 2011
From: amon at doctrinezero.com (Amon Zero)
Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 08:42:14 +0000
Subject: [ExI] REVOLUTION NOW! all-thing.org
In-Reply-To: <4EBB0751.5080900@mac.com>
References: <CAAoBNdX9dh9BfN55sT7b+=4vqvW_MDE85ctVBrSi-yuJ+gW=kg@mail.gmail.com>
	<4EBB0751.5080900@mac.com>
Message-ID: <CAAoBNdX8ZCO85+fs5UgwJ1Ej2C_5t7ery5CtVH1fbPW9Lz0RLw@mail.gmail.com>

On 9 November 2011 23:05, Samantha Atkins <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:

> **
>
> Is that what you are saying Zero State is now, avowedly anti-capitalist?
> Then I am very glad I left.  This is despicable.
>
> - samantha
>

Actually, Samantha, you'll be glad to know that your own arguments were a
deciding factor in this shift / development. Your own views, as you argued,
were not compatible with other views held by myself and other members.
Something had to give, but that did not lead to us agreeing with you.

Isn't it interesting that you, as an apparent advocate of unfettered
individual freedom, would declare it "despicable" the moment someone
disagrees with you, without offering anything like constructive argument.

Perhaps you'd like to clarify what exactly is "despicable"? Don't get me
wrong, I am aware that you must wildly disagree with my entire blog post as
an anarcho-Capitalist, but I'd like to hear *exactly* what I said that got
your goat? Was it the part where I said 'not *everything* about the current
system is awesome' (which is rather a more moderate view than your own)?

- A
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From amon at doctrinezero.com  Thu Nov 10 08:57:02 2011
From: amon at doctrinezero.com (Amon Zero)
Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 08:57:02 +0000
Subject: [ExI] REVOLUTION NOW! all-thing.org
In-Reply-To: <012d01cc9f44$c97a9bf0$5c6fd3d0$@att.net>
References: <CAAoBNdX9dh9BfN55sT7b+=4vqvW_MDE85ctVBrSi-yuJ+gW=kg@mail.gmail.com>
	<4EBB0751.5080900@mac.com>
	<012d01cc9f44$c97a9bf0$5c6fd3d0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAAoBNdVNZB0WJb+tj9Wdv1-jRiWNPydkak+-A3kjFEV+2yoVfw@mail.gmail.com>

2011/11/10 spike <spike66 at att.net>

> On 11/09/2011 04:06 AM, Amon Zero wrote: ****
>
>
> http://transhumanpraxis.wordpress.com/2011/11/09/revolution-now-all-thing-org/
> ****
>
> --
> *Anti-Capitalist Transhumanism* : *ZERO STATE* : http://zerostate.net****
>
> ** **
>
> Quote from the site:****
>
> >?Anti-Capitalism is an idea that perturbs many, because it represents the
> diagnosis of a problem without the offer of a solution. ?What would these
> people replace Capitalism *with*??
>

Also, if I may, I'd just like to copy in the entirety of the sentence
above, from the blog post, because I think it gives rather a different
impression of my point of view:

"?What would these people replace Capitalism *with*?? is a fair and
frequently asked question."

Perhaps we can take this conversation to a more constructive place...

The essence of the blog post was an emphasis on balance... that no single
principle can run society without excesses and unfortunate consequences.
Furthermore, that trade and innovation are undoubtedly *very good things*,
but they are not the sum of Capitalism.

So let's ask:
If trade = Capitalism, then what am I opposing?

Some have suggested "corruption", but I don't think that's quite right...
excessive and unfortunate activities can be technically legal and
non-corrupt. That's the point of influencing government - it legitimizes
otherwise illegitimate activities.

Maybe someone here has a constructive suggestion?

I ask this because we (ZS), unlike certain others, *would actually change
our point of view* if shown evidence and reasoned argument. We are clearly
opposed to certain things - if they are not intrinsically characteristic of
Capitalism, then what is the one word that unambiguously sums up these
clearly negatives effects on society that we oppose?

- A
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From amon at doctrinezero.com  Thu Nov 10 09:36:09 2011
From: amon at doctrinezero.com (Amon Zero)
Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 09:36:09 +0000
Subject: [ExI] REVOLUTION NOW! all-thing.org
In-Reply-To: <CAAoBNdX9dh9BfN55sT7b+=4vqvW_MDE85ctVBrSi-yuJ+gW=kg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAoBNdX9dh9BfN55sT7b+=4vqvW_MDE85ctVBrSi-yuJ+gW=kg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAAoBNdXs5EKRr7B8i1-n+med=dUBMP-r38N1P04YDyCVuMotWA@mail.gmail.com>

On 9 November 2011 12:06, Amon Zero <amon at doctrinezero.com> wrote:

>
> http://transhumanpraxis.wordpress.com/2011/11/09/revolution-now-all-thing-org/



A follow-up post, taking into account the many and varied comments made
across multiple lists in the last 24 hours:

http://transhumanpraxis.wordpress.com/2011/11/10/anti-capitalism-ok-lets-breathe-and-think-about-this/
<http://transhumanpraxis.wordpress.com/2011/11/10/anti-capitalism-ok-lets-breathe-and-think-about-this/%20>
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From giulio at gmail.com  Thu Nov 10 10:03:08 2011
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 11:03:08 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Monetary Evolution Now! was REVOLUTION NOW!
In-Reply-To: <CAAoBNdXj2nurckU3_iOCpqa_4y0F=LfGMV-tWh3YAK3ru-+AQg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAoBNdX9dh9BfN55sT7b+=4vqvW_MDE85ctVBrSi-yuJ+gW=kg@mail.gmail.com>
	<4EBB0751.5080900@mac.com>
	<012d01cc9f44$c97a9bf0$5c6fd3d0$@att.net>
	<1320902012.66049.YahooMailNeo@web65604.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<CAAoBNdXj2nurckU3_iOCpqa_4y0F=LfGMV-tWh3YAK3ru-+AQg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKTCJye3D9mVzxA=oHXYNcmfThpM5XTEYqNtES0f4cHrWgmBMg@mail.gmail.com>

Just posted on Amon's blog:

Capitalism can be good:

Smart and hard working baker Joe knows how to make good bread. He
finds a capitalist partner and opens a bakery. At the beginning he
works in the bakery himself with his family, then he hires some
workers. Then he opens a few other bakeries, treats and pays his
workers well, and continues to make good bread and sell it at
reasonable prices. Everyone wins, Joe and his family, the workers, the
investors, and the rest of us who can eat good bread.

And capitalism can be bad:

Finance shark Jim bribes his buddies in government to pass regulations
that put Joe (and all other small bakers) out of business. Then he
opens a chain of bakeries that produce tasteless and toxic bread and
sell it at outrageous prices. Of course, he continues to bribe his
buddies in government to protect his monopoly. After a few years he is
a billionaire who scams financial markets to bring entire currencies
and economies down. He owns banks protected by the government and
bailed out with citizen?s money when he needs. Every few years he (and
his buddies in government) engineer a financial crisis to force people
out of their homes and buy them back cheap. Everybody loses but Jim
and his buddies.

I suggest that we forget the terms ?capitalism? or ?anti-capitalism?,
and just build a system where Joe?s methods work and Jim?s methods
don?t.

2011/11/10 Amon Zero <amon at doctrinezero.com>:
> On 10 November 2011 05:13, The Avantguardian <avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> >________________________________
>> >From: spike <spike66 at att.net>
>> >To: 'ExI chat list' <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
>> >Sent: Wednesday, November 9, 2011 5:05 PM
>> >Subject: Re: [ExI] REVOLUTION NOW! all-thing.org
>>
>> >I have a suggestion for a system to replace capitalism.? Unfettered
>> > capitalism.
>>
>> Interestingly, this has been the topic of debate between myself and an
>> economics student at the University of Nevada for some time now. I can
>> pretty much some up where we, myself a left-leaning libertarian biologist
>> and him a right-leaning libertarian economist, have found common ground as
>> follows:
>
> Wow, heaps to chew on there! Let me think on this one for a bit!
>
> - A
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>



From amon at doctrinezero.com  Thu Nov 10 10:09:46 2011
From: amon at doctrinezero.com (Amon Zero)
Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 10:09:46 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Monetary Evolution Now! was REVOLUTION NOW!
In-Reply-To: <CAKTCJye3D9mVzxA=oHXYNcmfThpM5XTEYqNtES0f4cHrWgmBMg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAoBNdX9dh9BfN55sT7b+=4vqvW_MDE85ctVBrSi-yuJ+gW=kg@mail.gmail.com>
	<4EBB0751.5080900@mac.com>
	<012d01cc9f44$c97a9bf0$5c6fd3d0$@att.net>
	<1320902012.66049.YahooMailNeo@web65604.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<CAAoBNdXj2nurckU3_iOCpqa_4y0F=LfGMV-tWh3YAK3ru-+AQg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAKTCJye3D9mVzxA=oHXYNcmfThpM5XTEYqNtES0f4cHrWgmBMg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAAoBNdVg2UurWkjUR4BcTg4P-Y7L=t77pCbZu0f0K-sSLhSHjw@mail.gmail.com>

On 10 November 2011 10:03, Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:

> Just posted on Amon's blog:
>
> Capitalism can be good:
>
> Smart and hard working baker Joe knows how to make good bread. He
> finds a capitalist partner and opens a bakery. At the beginning he
> works in the bakery himself with his family, then he hires some
> workers. Then he opens a few other bakeries, treats and pays his
> workers well, and continues to make good bread and sell it at
> reasonable prices. Everyone wins, Joe and his family, the workers, the
> investors, and the rest of us who can eat good bread.
>
> And capitalism can be bad:
>
> Finance shark Jim bribes his buddies in government to pass regulations
> that put Joe (and all other small bakers) out of business. Then he
> opens a chain of bakeries that produce tasteless and toxic bread and
> sell it at outrageous prices. Of course, he continues to bribe his
> buddies in government to protect his monopoly. After a few years he is
> a billionaire who scams financial markets to bring entire currencies
> and economies down. He owns banks protected by the government and
> bailed out with citizen?s money when he needs. Every few years he (and
> his buddies in government) engineer a financial crisis to force people
> out of their homes and buy them back cheap. Everybody loses but Jim
> and his buddies.
>
> I suggest that we forget the terms ?capitalism? or ?anti-capitalism?,
> and just build a system where Joe?s methods work and Jim?s methods
> don?t.
>


My response there (re-posting because it not only includes another lame
joke FTW, but sums up the essence of what I'm getting at):

"Yes, well said Giulio!

Now, we know of several possible solutions to this dilemma already. I
mentioned Socialism, Communism, Fascism, & Technocracy in the original blog
post. Libertarianism wasn't mentioned, but also seems to qualify. I myself
proposed a form of radical democracy (if we want to call it that).

I'm inclined to think that we should set issues of solutions to one side,
just for a moment, and try to identify the meme which these various groups
hold in common: A diagnosis of a problem within society. I would argue that
such problems represent imbalances, but it occurs just now that this sounds
like the Medieval medical theory of "humours" applied to the "body of
society".

So we could call it "Humourism"!   ;-)
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From amon at doctrinezero.com  Thu Nov 10 10:19:13 2011
From: amon at doctrinezero.com (Amon Zero)
Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 10:19:13 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Humanity+ Talk  REVOLUTION NOW! all-thing.org
In-Reply-To: <CAAoBNdX8ZCO85+fs5UgwJ1Ej2C_5t7ery5CtVH1fbPW9Lz0RLw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAoBNdX9dh9BfN55sT7b+=4vqvW_MDE85ctVBrSi-yuJ+gW=kg@mail.gmail.com>
	<4EBB0751.5080900@mac.com>
	<CAAoBNdX8ZCO85+fs5UgwJ1Ej2C_5t7ery5CtVH1fbPW9Lz0RLw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAAoBNdXPqGL=yzbbghac6Y7BHSosSDezP3S3TOGVkq=qrY5CyA@mail.gmail.com>

On 10 November 2011 08:42, Amon Zero <amon at doctrinezero.com> wrote:

> On 9 November 2011 23:05, Samantha Atkins <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:
>
>> **
>>
>> Is that what you are saying Zero State is now, avowedly anti-capitalist?
>> Then I am very glad I left.  This is despicable.
>>
>> - samantha
>>
>
> Actually, Samantha, you'll be glad to know that your own arguments were a
> deciding factor in this shift / development. Your own views, as you argued,
> were not compatible with other views held by myself and other members.
> Something had to give, but that did not lead to us agreeing with you.
>
> Isn't it interesting that you, as an apparent advocate of unfettered
> individual freedom, would declare it "despicable" the moment someone
> disagrees with you, without offering anything like constructive argument.
>
> Perhaps you'd like to clarify what exactly is "despicable"? Don't get me
> wrong, I am aware that you must wildly disagree with my entire blog post as
> an anarcho-Capitalist, but I'd like to hear *exactly* what I said that got
> your goat? Was it the part where I said 'not *everything* about the current
> system is awesome' (which is rather a more moderate view than your own)?



Now, I'll apologise right here, for a massive mis-step. Samantha is of
course presumably not at all happy with the current system, either, but
would offer a different solution.

And strikes me as the essence of the thing:

Anti-Capitalism is, in a nutshell "Capitalism is bad"

Libertarianism is, if I'm not wrong: "The current system is bad, but the
current system != Capitalism"

Is this accurate?
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From giulio at gmail.com  Thu Nov 10 10:29:34 2011
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 11:29:34 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Monetary Evolution Now! was REVOLUTION NOW!
In-Reply-To: <CAAoBNdVg2UurWkjUR4BcTg4P-Y7L=t77pCbZu0f0K-sSLhSHjw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAoBNdX9dh9BfN55sT7b+=4vqvW_MDE85ctVBrSi-yuJ+gW=kg@mail.gmail.com>
	<4EBB0751.5080900@mac.com>
	<012d01cc9f44$c97a9bf0$5c6fd3d0$@att.net>
	<1320902012.66049.YahooMailNeo@web65604.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<CAAoBNdXj2nurckU3_iOCpqa_4y0F=LfGMV-tWh3YAK3ru-+AQg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAKTCJye3D9mVzxA=oHXYNcmfThpM5XTEYqNtES0f4cHrWgmBMg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAAoBNdVg2UurWkjUR4BcTg4P-Y7L=t77pCbZu0f0K-sSLhSHjw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKTCJycu4ba6bVdydnZRrsdyRuJgLWr245r74FsRqvDWWvxaDA@mail.gmail.com>

I fear constructive discussion between people hormonally attached to
their obsolete political memes is impossible and a waste of time for
all.

I think dialogue between reasonable libertarians and socialists is
possible, but dialogue between zealot gun-loving sociopaths who want
freedom for their group and oppression for others, and zealot
nanny-state control-freaks and thought cops who want to control the
life and mind of others, is not.

We should build a new political system for reasonable free agents in a
reasonable and open society. It is a very difficult task, but very
worth.

2011/11/10 Amon Zero <amon at doctrinezero.com>:
> On 10 November 2011 10:03, Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Just posted on Amon's blog:
>>
>> Capitalism can be good:
>>
>> Smart and hard working baker Joe knows how to make good bread. He
>> finds a capitalist partner and opens a bakery. At the beginning he
>> works in the bakery himself with his family, then he hires some
>> workers. Then he opens a few other bakeries, treats and pays his
>> workers well, and continues to make good bread and sell it at
>> reasonable prices. Everyone wins, Joe and his family, the workers, the
>> investors, and the rest of us who can eat good bread.
>>
>> And capitalism can be bad:
>>
>> Finance shark Jim bribes his buddies in government to pass regulations
>> that put Joe (and all other small bakers) out of business. Then he
>> opens a chain of bakeries that produce tasteless and toxic bread and
>> sell it at outrageous prices. Of course, he continues to bribe his
>> buddies in government to protect his monopoly. After a few years he is
>> a billionaire who scams financial markets to bring entire currencies
>> and economies down. He owns banks protected by the government and
>> bailed out with citizen?s money when he needs. Every few years he (and
>> his buddies in government) engineer a financial crisis to force people
>> out of their homes and buy them back cheap. Everybody loses but Jim
>> and his buddies.
>>
>> I suggest that we forget the terms ?capitalism? or ?anti-capitalism?,
>> and just build a system where Joe?s methods work and Jim?s methods
>> don?t.
>
>
> My response there (re-posting because it not only includes another lame joke
> FTW, but sums up the essence of what I'm getting at):
>
> "Yes, well said Giulio!
>
> Now, we know of several possible solutions to this dilemma already. I
> mentioned Socialism, Communism, Fascism, & Technocracy in the original blog
> post. Libertarianism wasn't mentioned, but also seems to qualify. I myself
> proposed a form of radical democracy (if we want to call it that).
>
> I'm inclined to think that we should set issues of solutions to one side,
> just for a moment, and try to identify the meme which these various groups
> hold in common: A diagnosis of a problem within society. I would argue that
> such problems represent imbalances, but it occurs just now that this sounds
> like the Medieval medical theory of "humours" applied to the "body of
> society".
>
> So we could call it "Humourism"!?? ;-)
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>



From amon at doctrinezero.com  Thu Nov 10 10:39:07 2011
From: amon at doctrinezero.com (Amon Zero)
Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 10:39:07 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Monetary Evolution Now! was REVOLUTION NOW!
In-Reply-To: <CAKTCJycu4ba6bVdydnZRrsdyRuJgLWr245r74FsRqvDWWvxaDA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAoBNdX9dh9BfN55sT7b+=4vqvW_MDE85ctVBrSi-yuJ+gW=kg@mail.gmail.com>
	<4EBB0751.5080900@mac.com>
	<012d01cc9f44$c97a9bf0$5c6fd3d0$@att.net>
	<1320902012.66049.YahooMailNeo@web65604.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<CAAoBNdXj2nurckU3_iOCpqa_4y0F=LfGMV-tWh3YAK3ru-+AQg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAKTCJye3D9mVzxA=oHXYNcmfThpM5XTEYqNtES0f4cHrWgmBMg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAAoBNdVg2UurWkjUR4BcTg4P-Y7L=t77pCbZu0f0K-sSLhSHjw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAKTCJycu4ba6bVdydnZRrsdyRuJgLWr245r74FsRqvDWWvxaDA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAAoBNdVQG01jdgWTE3J8ot3svMiL1bBL6Gc+7uNpRkOHwmwfcA@mail.gmail.com>

On 10 November 2011 10:29, Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:

> I fear constructive discussion between people hormonally attached to
> their obsolete political memes is impossible and a waste of time for
> all.
>
> I think dialogue between reasonable libertarians and socialists is
> possible, but dialogue between zealot gun-loving sociopaths who want
> freedom for their group and oppression for others, and zealot
> nanny-state control-freaks and thought cops who want to control the
> life and mind of others, is not.
>
> We should build a new political system for reasonable free agents in a
> reasonable and open society. It is a very difficult task, but very
> worth.
>


Yes - I agree. Tricky, but worth a shot. The tricky is to keep the meme,
and the associated label, as simple as possible.

So... starting with what we have on the table:

The idea is that some part of the body politic has become malignant. Today,
that part appears to be Capitalism. That doesn't mean that Capitalism is
*necessarily* bad, or presuppose what we mean by Capitalism, but it does
emphasise the idea "Something's wrong and we demand a solution to the
problem".

Do we agree on this much, as a starting point?

I know that it's not radical enough for at least several people on this
list, but let's try to go for a modest common point, at least to begin
with, and see where that gets us...
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From giulio at gmail.com  Thu Nov 10 10:44:31 2011
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 11:44:31 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Monetary Evolution Now! was REVOLUTION NOW!
In-Reply-To: <CAAoBNdVQG01jdgWTE3J8ot3svMiL1bBL6Gc+7uNpRkOHwmwfcA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAoBNdX9dh9BfN55sT7b+=4vqvW_MDE85ctVBrSi-yuJ+gW=kg@mail.gmail.com>
	<4EBB0751.5080900@mac.com>
	<012d01cc9f44$c97a9bf0$5c6fd3d0$@att.net>
	<1320902012.66049.YahooMailNeo@web65604.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<CAAoBNdXj2nurckU3_iOCpqa_4y0F=LfGMV-tWh3YAK3ru-+AQg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAKTCJye3D9mVzxA=oHXYNcmfThpM5XTEYqNtES0f4cHrWgmBMg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAAoBNdVg2UurWkjUR4BcTg4P-Y7L=t77pCbZu0f0K-sSLhSHjw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAKTCJycu4ba6bVdydnZRrsdyRuJgLWr245r74FsRqvDWWvxaDA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAAoBNdVQG01jdgWTE3J8ot3svMiL1bBL6Gc+7uNpRkOHwmwfcA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKTCJyecbh3ycxqvExUaYZbGcBz=NsCJ-EEBgA9044vd2Ke36w@mail.gmail.com>

re "let's try to go for a modest common point, at least to begin with,
and see where that gets us..."

Nowhere. The range of political positions here is too wide to find
concrete common points. I suggest that we focus on a subset of
participants instead.

2011/11/10 Amon Zero <amon at doctrinezero.com>:
> On 10 November 2011 10:29, Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I fear constructive discussion between people hormonally attached to
>> their obsolete political memes is impossible and a waste of time for
>> all.
>>
>> I think dialogue between reasonable libertarians and socialists is
>> possible, but dialogue between zealot gun-loving sociopaths who want
>> freedom for their group and oppression for others, and zealot
>> nanny-state control-freaks and thought cops who want to control the
>> life and mind of others, is not.
>>
>> We should build a new political system for reasonable free agents in a
>> reasonable and open society. It is a very difficult task, but very
>> worth.
>
>
> Yes - I agree. Tricky, but worth a shot. The tricky is to keep the meme, and
> the associated label, as simple as possible.
>
> So... starting with what we have on the table:
>
> The idea is that some part of the body politic has become malignant. Today,
> that part appears to be Capitalism. That doesn't mean that Capitalism is
> *necessarily* bad, or presuppose what we mean by Capitalism, but it does
> emphasise the idea "Something's wrong and we demand a solution to the
> problem".
>
> Do we agree on this much, as a starting point?
>
> I know that it's not radical enough for at least several people on this
> list, but let's try to go for a modest common point, at least to begin with,
> and see where that gets us...
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>


From bbenzai at yahoo.com  Thu Nov 10 10:40:42 2011
From: bbenzai at yahoo.com (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 02:40:42 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ExI] REVOLUTION NOW! all-thing.org
In-Reply-To: <mailman.585.1320919794.598.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <1320921642.33227.YahooMailClassic@web114410.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

Giulio wrote:
"There is a de-facto power monopoly of big corporations/banks and
corrupted big governments, _acting together_. The government that
zealot libertarians hate is owned by the same banks and corporations
that they worship."


How is this result any different to what 'unfettered capitalism' would lead to? (except that the situation wouldn't need to be covered up or denied)

Do the people here who are in favour of free-market capitalism think it's right and proper that powerful corporations (or individuals) should be able to buy or pressure governments into making legislation that suppresses their competitors, restricts consumer's choices, and forms legalised monopolies?

If you don't think so, you're in agreement with Zero State, despite the confusion that use of the term 'anti-capitalist' has caused.

Ben Zaiboc



From amon at doctrinezero.com  Thu Nov 10 11:37:05 2011
From: amon at doctrinezero.com (Amon Zero)
Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 11:37:05 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Monetary Evolution Now! was REVOLUTION NOW!
In-Reply-To: <CAKTCJyecbh3ycxqvExUaYZbGcBz=NsCJ-EEBgA9044vd2Ke36w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAoBNdX9dh9BfN55sT7b+=4vqvW_MDE85ctVBrSi-yuJ+gW=kg@mail.gmail.com>
	<4EBB0751.5080900@mac.com>
	<012d01cc9f44$c97a9bf0$5c6fd3d0$@att.net>
	<1320902012.66049.YahooMailNeo@web65604.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<CAAoBNdXj2nurckU3_iOCpqa_4y0F=LfGMV-tWh3YAK3ru-+AQg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAKTCJye3D9mVzxA=oHXYNcmfThpM5XTEYqNtES0f4cHrWgmBMg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAAoBNdVg2UurWkjUR4BcTg4P-Y7L=t77pCbZu0f0K-sSLhSHjw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAKTCJycu4ba6bVdydnZRrsdyRuJgLWr245r74FsRqvDWWvxaDA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAAoBNdVQG01jdgWTE3J8ot3svMiL1bBL6Gc+7uNpRkOHwmwfcA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAKTCJyecbh3ycxqvExUaYZbGcBz=NsCJ-EEBgA9044vd2Ke36w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAAoBNdVTdodTmO5nqsn9Vzjq+-jYG+CUmuwMG=QNJJ00bUWWyQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 10 November 2011 10:44, Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:

> re "let's try to go for a modest common point, at least to begin with,
> and see where that gets us..."
>
> Nowhere. The range of political positions here is too wide to find
> concrete common points. I suggest that we focus on a subset of
> participants instead.
>

Yes, I agree that we'd never get more than a certain % agreeing, and nor
should we try (not least because being right is more important than being
popular, in almost all regards), however...

Imagine we are casting a net. Where should we aim to put the *centre* of
that net?

It seems that we can agree that something is wrong in our society, and that
as citizens we have not only a right but a duty to attempt correcting that
wrong. My own view is that the current wrong is associated with Capitalism,
but as I've said I think trade and innovation are important as a mettr of
principle.

Couple of other constraints off the top of my head:

A number of proposed solutions strike me as problematic, and it would take
a small essay to even sketch the likely problems with Socialism, Communism,
Libertarianism, Fascism, & Technocracy. Some of these systems have some
merit, but the moment you adopt any one as gospel then you'll eventually
come back to having a major problem of one sort or another, mark my words.

As mentioned in the original blog post, I think the answer lies in a kind
of radical democracy. The idea - no matter how "crazy" from a modern
perspective - that whenever some doctrinaire system is causing problems,
people should be able to tweak the system on the fly, in a purely pragmatic
way.

An image occurs...

Imagine two mechanics looking under the bonnet (US: hood) of a car. One
says "there it is - the fan belt has snapped". The other mechanic says "I
cannot acknowledge the existence of fan belts as a matter of Hegelian
Dialectic".
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From amon at doctrinezero.com  Thu Nov 10 11:38:47 2011
From: amon at doctrinezero.com (Amon Zero)
Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 11:38:47 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Monetary Evolution Now! was REVOLUTION NOW!
In-Reply-To: <CAAoBNdVTdodTmO5nqsn9Vzjq+-jYG+CUmuwMG=QNJJ00bUWWyQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAoBNdX9dh9BfN55sT7b+=4vqvW_MDE85ctVBrSi-yuJ+gW=kg@mail.gmail.com>
	<4EBB0751.5080900@mac.com>
	<012d01cc9f44$c97a9bf0$5c6fd3d0$@att.net>
	<1320902012.66049.YahooMailNeo@web65604.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<CAAoBNdXj2nurckU3_iOCpqa_4y0F=LfGMV-tWh3YAK3ru-+AQg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAKTCJye3D9mVzxA=oHXYNcmfThpM5XTEYqNtES0f4cHrWgmBMg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAAoBNdVg2UurWkjUR4BcTg4P-Y7L=t77pCbZu0f0K-sSLhSHjw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAKTCJycu4ba6bVdydnZRrsdyRuJgLWr245r74FsRqvDWWvxaDA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAAoBNdVQG01jdgWTE3J8ot3svMiL1bBL6Gc+7uNpRkOHwmwfcA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAKTCJyecbh3ycxqvExUaYZbGcBz=NsCJ-EEBgA9044vd2Ke36w@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAAoBNdVTdodTmO5nqsn9Vzjq+-jYG+CUmuwMG=QNJJ00bUWWyQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAAoBNdWXY1Hg0hRB5PQYN8TgYdXPk8LnFdciF2Y3u9K5Feymqg@mail.gmail.com>

p.s. When I started writing this I thought it was going to the Doctrine
Zero list. Once I saw the post was on ExI I paused, shrugged, and thought
"what the hell". I hope that explains the first-party wording when
referring to a ZS point of view.


On 10 November 2011 11:37, Amon Zero <amon at doctrinezero.com> wrote:

> On 10 November 2011 10:44, Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> re "let's try to go for a modest common point, at least to begin with,
>> and see where that gets us..."
>>
>> Nowhere. The range of political positions here is too wide to find
>> concrete common points. I suggest that we focus on a subset of
>> participants instead.
>>
>
> Yes, I agree that we'd never get more than a certain % agreeing, and nor
> should we try (not least because being right is more important than being
> popular, in almost all regards), however...
>
> Imagine we are casting a net. Where should we aim to put the *centre* of
> that net?
>
> It seems that we can agree that something is wrong in our society, and
> that as citizens we have not only a right but a duty to attempt correcting
> that wrong. My own view is that the current wrong is associated with
> Capitalism, but as I've said I think trade and innovation are important as
> a mettr of principle.
>
> Couple of other constraints off the top of my head:
>
> A number of proposed solutions strike me as problematic, and it would take
> a small essay to even sketch the likely problems with Socialism, Communism,
> Libertarianism, Fascism, & Technocracy. Some of these systems have some
> merit, but the moment you adopt any one as gospel then you'll eventually
> come back to having a major problem of one sort or another, mark my words.
>
> As mentioned in the original blog post, I think the answer lies in a kind
> of radical democracy. The idea - no matter how "crazy" from a modern
> perspective - that whenever some doctrinaire system is causing problems,
> people should be able to tweak the system on the fly, in a purely pragmatic
> way.
>
> An image occurs...
>
> Imagine two mechanics looking under the bonnet (US: hood) of a car. One
> says "there it is - the fan belt has snapped". The other mechanic says "I
> cannot acknowledge the existence of fan belts as a matter of Hegelian
> Dialectic".
>



-- 
***ZERO STATE* : http://zerostate.net
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From pharos at gmail.com  Thu Nov 10 12:13:40 2011
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 12:13:40 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Monetary Evolution Now! was REVOLUTION NOW!
In-Reply-To: <CAAoBNdVTdodTmO5nqsn9Vzjq+-jYG+CUmuwMG=QNJJ00bUWWyQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAoBNdX9dh9BfN55sT7b+=4vqvW_MDE85ctVBrSi-yuJ+gW=kg@mail.gmail.com>
	<4EBB0751.5080900@mac.com>
	<012d01cc9f44$c97a9bf0$5c6fd3d0$@att.net>
	<1320902012.66049.YahooMailNeo@web65604.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<CAAoBNdXj2nurckU3_iOCpqa_4y0F=LfGMV-tWh3YAK3ru-+AQg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAKTCJye3D9mVzxA=oHXYNcmfThpM5XTEYqNtES0f4cHrWgmBMg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAAoBNdVg2UurWkjUR4BcTg4P-Y7L=t77pCbZu0f0K-sSLhSHjw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAKTCJycu4ba6bVdydnZRrsdyRuJgLWr245r74FsRqvDWWvxaDA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAAoBNdVQG01jdgWTE3J8ot3svMiL1bBL6Gc+7uNpRkOHwmwfcA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAKTCJyecbh3ycxqvExUaYZbGcBz=NsCJ-EEBgA9044vd2Ke36w@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAAoBNdVTdodTmO5nqsn9Vzjq+-jYG+CUmuwMG=QNJJ00bUWWyQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armgkxCZJ1TJhBpkOfBgD6666tQ5q+2Uh+EX8DYjvWJqs2Q@mail.gmail.com>

2011/11/10 Amon Zero wrote:
> Yes, I agree that we'd never get more than a certain % agreeing, and nor
> should we try (not least because being right is more important than being
> popular, in almost all regards), however...
>
> Imagine we are casting a net. Where should we aim to put the *centre* of
> that net?
>
> It seems that we can agree that something is wrong in our society, and that
> as citizens we have not only a right but a duty to attempt correcting that
> wrong. My own view is that the current wrong is associated with Capitalism,
> but as I've said I think trade and innovation are important as a matter of
> principle.
>
>

Not only on the Exi list. In society as a whole you will never get
more than a small percentage agreeing that the current system is
wonderful. (No matter what the system is). Until everyone gets every
wish granted you won't get agreement.

In human society 'being right' is only incidental. 'Winning the
argument' is the primary driver. That's the way humans have evolved
and we are stuck with it. Of course it is better for us if 'being
right' wins the argument, but that doesn't happen very often in
politics.
Even if a marvellous system was proposed it would be ruined as alpha
males argued for random changes to increase their status / position /
wealth.

You will be very lucky to get a system that more than half the
population agree with. Looking around, if you do, then you will
probably need some kind of religious style brain-washing involved to
numb the majority of the population.

Humans are too different to have 'one size fits all'.


BillK


From hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu  Thu Nov 10 12:03:39 2011
From: hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu (Henry Rivera)
Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 07:03:39 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Capitalism, anti capitalism, emotional arousal
Message-ID: <BF7498ED-47C3-4434-B841-95AF22F61F8F@alumni.Virginia.edu>

Wow! How interesting it is to see everyone get all worked up about Zero State's development of an ideology, which I might add is still a work in progress. My view is that capitalism is a means to an end which will become obsolete after a certain tipping point. There is nothing anyone can do about that, so in this sense Zero State is just ahead of the curve in explicitly welcoming this. An attempt to show that a political system can function without capitalistic values is worthwhile. "Unfettered capitalism" could improve things in the interim but will eventually become obsolete politically as well. The target of current contempt as I see it is systematic oppression of millions of people facilitated by capitalism as it currently exists driven by greed. Consider the data released this week in the US indicating 16% or 49 million people in the US live below or near the poverty line, which is $22,000USD for a family of four. Can anyone really defend that in this modern age particularly in a first world country? On the other hand, people working within the current system will argue their accumulation of wealth is fair game; they are playing by the rules (which they helped to create I might add, which is the nature of oppression and built into the system in the US where there is little to limit financial influence of legislators by the wealthy relative to Europe for example). Zero State is taking the position that the logical solution is a new system that doesn't facilitate the rich getting richer by rewarding greed and oppression. Anyone who read Amon's whole statement will see this is not an anti free trade position. It's more about the activity of free trade as it functions in our current political system. Calling that anti-capitalist certainly pushed some buttons and will likely change based on recent discussion. As I said the development of this new ideology is a work in progress. Contribute. It's your future too. If the direction of Zero State is not your cup of tea, propose and implement your own solutions to compete. Complacency and tolerance of oppression is despicable to me.
-Henry



From amon at doctrinezero.com  Thu Nov 10 12:20:21 2011
From: amon at doctrinezero.com (Amon Zero)
Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 12:20:21 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Monetary Evolution Now! was REVOLUTION NOW!
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armgkxCZJ1TJhBpkOfBgD6666tQ5q+2Uh+EX8DYjvWJqs2Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAoBNdX9dh9BfN55sT7b+=4vqvW_MDE85ctVBrSi-yuJ+gW=kg@mail.gmail.com>
	<4EBB0751.5080900@mac.com>
	<012d01cc9f44$c97a9bf0$5c6fd3d0$@att.net>
	<1320902012.66049.YahooMailNeo@web65604.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<CAAoBNdXj2nurckU3_iOCpqa_4y0F=LfGMV-tWh3YAK3ru-+AQg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAKTCJye3D9mVzxA=oHXYNcmfThpM5XTEYqNtES0f4cHrWgmBMg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAAoBNdVg2UurWkjUR4BcTg4P-Y7L=t77pCbZu0f0K-sSLhSHjw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAKTCJycu4ba6bVdydnZRrsdyRuJgLWr245r74FsRqvDWWvxaDA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAAoBNdVQG01jdgWTE3J8ot3svMiL1bBL6Gc+7uNpRkOHwmwfcA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAKTCJyecbh3ycxqvExUaYZbGcBz=NsCJ-EEBgA9044vd2Ke36w@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAAoBNdVTdodTmO5nqsn9Vzjq+-jYG+CUmuwMG=QNJJ00bUWWyQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAL_armgkxCZJ1TJhBpkOfBgD6666tQ5q+2Uh+EX8DYjvWJqs2Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAAoBNdV9RJggvEEJUrP59PboYu+DM0Qe+8M9Hv2L982jGT+QAw@mail.gmail.com>

On 10 November 2011 12:13, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:

>
> In human society 'being right' is only incidental. 'Winning the
> argument' is the primary driver. That's the way humans have evolved
> and we are stuck with it. Of course it is better for us if 'being
> right' wins the argument, but that doesn't happen very often in
> politics.
>

Yes, I agree. That's why I said "in almost all regards". As idealist I am,
I also have a strong pragmatic streak, and that makes it clear that you can
be as right as you like, but without influence that matters for nothing.



> You will be very lucky to get a system that more than half the
> population agree with. Looking around, if you do, then you will
> probably need some kind of religious style brain-washing involved to
> numb the majority of the population.
>
> Humans are too different to have 'one size fits all'.
>

Again, I agree, but anyone wanting to change anything needn't necessarily
directly influence anything like 50% of people. If it were a simple "flat"
population then 10% would probably do the job (given behaviour in large
human groups), and we know that we don't live in a "flat" social
environment. Some people already have high levels of influence, of
different types. So if you can influence a critical proportion of *them*,
you're on to a winner.
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From amon at doctrinezero.com  Thu Nov 10 13:23:25 2011
From: amon at doctrinezero.com (Amon Zero)
Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 13:23:25 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Capitalism, anti capitalism, emotional arousal
In-Reply-To: <BF7498ED-47C3-4434-B841-95AF22F61F8F@alumni.Virginia.edu>
References: <BF7498ED-47C3-4434-B841-95AF22F61F8F@alumni.Virginia.edu>
Message-ID: <CAAoBNdXAFGcnA_wZEDHP403zk8j=Pw8xqRq8Y57oyCkjWBXskA@mail.gmail.com>

On 10 November 2011 12:03, Henry Rivera <hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu> wrote:

> Wow! How interesting it is to see everyone get all worked up about Zero
> State's development of an ideology, which I might add is still a work in
> progress. My view is that capitalism is a means to an end which will become
> obsolete after a certain tipping point. There is nothing anyone can do
> about that, so in this sense Zero State is just ahead of the curve in
> explicitly welcoming this. An attempt to show that a political system can
> function without capitalistic values is worthwhile. "Unfettered capitalism"
> could improve things in the interim but will eventually become obsolete
> politically as well. The target of current contempt as I see it is
> systematic oppression of millions of people facilitated by capitalism as it
> currently exists driven by greed. Consider the data released this week in
> the US indicating 16% or 49 million people in the US live below or near the
> poverty line, which is $22,000USD for a family of four. Can anyone really
> defend that in this modern age particu!
>  larly in a first world country? On the other hand, people working within
> the current system will argue their accumulation of wealth is fair game;
> they are playing by the rules (which they helped to create I might add,
> which is the nature of oppression and built into the system in the US where
> there is little to limit financial influence of legislators by the wealthy
> relative to Europe for example). Zero State is taking the position that the
> logical solution is a new system that doesn't facilitate the rich getting
> richer by rewarding greed and oppression. Anyone who read Amon's whole
> statement will see this is not an anti free trade position. It's more about
> the activity of free trade as it functions in our current political system.
> Calling that anti-capitalist certainly pushed some buttons and will likely
> change based on recent discussion. As I said the development of this new
> ideology is a work in progress. Contribute. It's your future too. If the
> direction of Zero State i!
>  s not your cup of tea, propose and implement your own solutions to
> compete. Complacency and tolerance of oppression is despicable to me.
> -Henry
>


Henry, I'll get you that $100 on the weekend.

;-)

-- 
***ZERO STATE* : http://zerostate.net
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From kryonica at gmail.com  Thu Nov 10 09:38:41 2011
From: kryonica at gmail.com (Kryonica)
Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 09:38:41 +0000
Subject: [ExI] one molecule car
In-Reply-To: <016e01cc9f63$18101e70$48305b50$@att.net>
References: <016e01cc9f63$18101e70$48305b50$@att.net>
Message-ID: <1F1171A4-0EE2-4EE1-93E1-9FA257E2D3D8@gmail.com>

"And what do you put in the cars? Pharmaceuticals, generally. The idea is that ? one day, when near-freezing vacuums aren?t required ? you could drive anti-cancer drugs to a tumor."  Hopefully when I am old, if diagnosed with cancer I can just...call a minicab!  
On 10 Nov 2011, at 04:42, spike wrote:

> Hey cool, the K.Eric told us a long time ago that we would have stuff like this:
>  
> http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/104347-one-molecule-nanocar-takes-a-test-drive
>  
>  
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

Kryonica
Kryonica at gmail.com

Live long enough to live forever





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From spike66 at att.net  Thu Nov 10 13:53:36 2011
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 05:53:36 -0800
Subject: [ExI] REVOLUTION NOW! all-thing.org
In-Reply-To: <CAAoBNdW1JGyqzM2pzUp=SavA5fF_2_GvNU0F9Lqz=+e41=EXRA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAoBNdX9dh9BfN55sT7b+=4vqvW_MDE85ctVBrSi-yuJ+gW=kg@mail.gmail.com>	<4EBB0751.5080900@mac.com>	<012d01cc9f44$c97a9bf0$5c6fd3d0$@att.net>
	<CAAoBNdW1JGyqzM2pzUp=SavA5fF_2_GvNU0F9Lqz=+e41=EXRA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <008b01cc9fb0$24fa5db0$6eef1910$@att.net>

 


Subject: Re: [ExI] REVOLUTION NOW! all-thing.org

 

2011/11/10 spike <spike66 at att.net>

Quote from the site:

>.Anti-Capitalism is an idea that perturbs many, because it represents the
diagnosis of a problem without the offer of a solution. "What would these
people replace Capitalism with?"

I have a suggestion for a system to replace capitalism.  Unfettered
capitalism.


>.That is, of course, the Libertarian or anarch-Capitalist position.

 

I think of it as minarcho-capitalist or small l libertarian.  I recognize we
desperately need some government functions that cannot effectively be done
any other way.



>.These are sincere questions. People rightly criticise Anti-Cap protestors
for not suggesting or coherently arguing for viable alternatives... I agree
that such incoherent protest is in many ways worse than pointless... but
maybe other ideologies should be held to the same standard, no?

 

Ja.  One suggestion is based on the signs I keep seeing, and even on this
thread: REVOLUTION.  What we need is evolution.  We need to work our way to
better economic systems by the legal means: vote for the people who best
represent our ideals, etc.  Besides that, I just like the sound of it:
EVOLUTION NOW!

 

It does take a while.  But evolution eventually comes around to some
insanely great solutions.

 

spike

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From spike66 at att.net  Thu Nov 10 14:10:48 2011
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 06:10:48 -0800
Subject: [ExI] overposting reminder ...
Message-ID: <00a401cc9fb2$8c847db0$a58d7910$@att.net>

 

I don't like being the heavy, especially considering my lack of mass.  But
do watch the posting limit.  We have a guideline of about five a day, eight
triggers the warning.  Thanks!

 

spike

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From amon at doctrinezero.com  Thu Nov 10 14:21:31 2011
From: amon at doctrinezero.com (Amon Zero)
Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 14:21:31 +0000
Subject: [ExI] REVOLUTION NOW! all-thing.org
In-Reply-To: <008b01cc9fb0$24fa5db0$6eef1910$@att.net>
References: <CAAoBNdX9dh9BfN55sT7b+=4vqvW_MDE85ctVBrSi-yuJ+gW=kg@mail.gmail.com>
	<4EBB0751.5080900@mac.com>
	<012d01cc9f44$c97a9bf0$5c6fd3d0$@att.net>
	<CAAoBNdW1JGyqzM2pzUp=SavA5fF_2_GvNU0F9Lqz=+e41=EXRA@mail.gmail.com>
	<008b01cc9fb0$24fa5db0$6eef1910$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAAoBNdWwaOqVX1ZbfHC9im1pb-QPv+MPo4nyQeKVjTPNH8ZWXg@mail.gmail.com>

2011/11/10 spike <spike66 at att.net>

>
>
> Ja.  One suggestion is based on the signs I keep seeing, and even on this
> thread: REVOLUTION.  What we need is evolution.  We need to work our way to
> better economic systems by the legal means: vote for the people who best
> represent our ideals, etc.  Besides that, I just like the sound of it:
> EVOLUTION NOW!
>
> ** **
>
> It does take a while.  But evolution eventually comes around to some
> insanely great solutions.
>

Yes, I like that a lot. Less political baggage (outside of the US, anyway),
we can conveniently ignore the time-scales of biological evolution, and
it'll wind up the Christian Fundamentalists something terrible...  ;-)

- A
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From amon at doctrinezero.com  Thu Nov 10 14:26:34 2011
From: amon at doctrinezero.com (Amon Zero)
Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 14:26:34 +0000
Subject: [ExI] overposting reminder ...
In-Reply-To: <00a401cc9fb2$8c847db0$a58d7910$@att.net>
References: <00a401cc9fb2$8c847db0$a58d7910$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAAoBNdWLkv64rn6zfehprs+juFmLtAuhDWDMfcyiuYHn==Nciw@mail.gmail.com>

2011/11/10 spike <spike66 at att.net>

> ** **
>
> I don?t like being the heavy, especially considering my lack of mass.  But
> do watch the posting limit.  We have a guideline of about five a day, eight
> triggers the warning.  Thanks!****
>
> ** **
>
> spike
>


Apologies (hope this post doesn't count!) - Well and truly guilty, since I
got caught up in debates across different lists with different rules &
cultures. I'll abstain for a while now.

- A

-- 
***ZERO STATE* : http://zerostate.net
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From gsantostasi at gmail.com  Thu Nov 10 18:27:23 2011
From: gsantostasi at gmail.com (Giovanni Santostasi)
Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 12:27:23 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Capitalism, anti capitalism, emotional arousal
In-Reply-To: <CAAoBNdXAFGcnA_wZEDHP403zk8j=Pw8xqRq8Y57oyCkjWBXskA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BF7498ED-47C3-4434-B841-95AF22F61F8F@alumni.Virginia.edu>
	<CAAoBNdXAFGcnA_wZEDHP403zk8j=Pw8xqRq8Y57oyCkjWBXskA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL+RtPfv7oPLTBGn-F9tv6BBZu-Nd185CPZ2tDVCBxLm8jH=rA@mail.gmail.com>

I fully support Zero State stance on capitalism.
Giovanni

2011/11/10 Amon Zero <amon at doctrinezero.com>

> On 10 November 2011 12:03, Henry Rivera <hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu>wrote:
>
>> Wow! How interesting it is to see everyone get all worked up about Zero
>> State's development of an ideology, which I might add is still a work in
>> progress. My view is that capitalism is a means to an end which will become
>> obsolete after a certain tipping point. There is nothing anyone can do
>> about that, so in this sense Zero State is just ahead of the curve in
>> explicitly welcoming this. An attempt to show that a political system can
>> function without capitalistic values is worthwhile. "Unfettered capitalism"
>> could improve things in the interim but will eventually become obsolete
>> politically as well. The target of current contempt as I see it is
>> systematic oppression of millions of people facilitated by capitalism as it
>> currently exists driven by greed. Consider the data released this week in
>> the US indicating 16% or 49 million people in the US live below or near the
>> poverty line, which is $22,000USD for a family of four. Can anyone really
>> defend that in this modern age particu!
>>  larly in a first world country? On the other hand, people working within
>> the current system will argue their accumulation of wealth is fair game;
>> they are playing by the rules (which they helped to create I might add,
>> which is the nature of oppression and built into the system in the US where
>> there is little to limit financial influence of legislators by the wealthy
>> relative to Europe for example). Zero State is taking the position that the
>> logical solution is a new system that doesn't facilitate the rich getting
>> richer by rewarding greed and oppression. Anyone who read Amon's whole
>> statement will see this is not an anti free trade position. It's more about
>> the activity of free trade as it functions in our current political system.
>> Calling that anti-capitalist certainly pushed some buttons and will likely
>> change based on recent discussion. As I said the development of this new
>> ideology is a work in progress. Contribute. It's your future too. If the
>> direction of Zero State i!
>>  s not your cup of tea, propose and implement your own solutions to
>> compete. Complacency and tolerance of oppression is despicable to me.
>> -Henry
>>
>
>
> Henry, I'll get you that $100 on the weekend.
>
> ;-)
>
> --
> ***ZERO STATE* : http://zerostate.net
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From kellycoinguy at gmail.com  Thu Nov 10 18:55:19 2011
From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 11:55:19 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Capitalism, anti capitalism, emotional arousal
In-Reply-To: <BF7498ED-47C3-4434-B841-95AF22F61F8F@alumni.Virginia.edu>
References: <BF7498ED-47C3-4434-B841-95AF22F61F8F@alumni.Virginia.edu>
Message-ID: <CAPy8RwbDoy8CyKCy_yXArCX339oRx+RoKvAdXmJJVFjwriWFAQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Nov 10, 2011 at 5:03 AM, Henry Rivera
<hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu> wrote:
> My view is that capitalism is a means to an end which will become obsolete
> after a certain tipping point.

So what do you see as the inevitable final system Henry?

-Kelly


From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Thu Nov 10 18:59:01 2011
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 19:59:01 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Capitalism, anti capitalism, emotional arousal
In-Reply-To: <BF7498ED-47C3-4434-B841-95AF22F61F8F@alumni.Virginia.edu>
References: <BF7498ED-47C3-4434-B841-95AF22F61F8F@alumni.Virginia.edu>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a5YXDGmfYzZS1ERLxqw8v26iqcdSoByU6d+cZhEpQoJHg@mail.gmail.com>

On 10 November 2011 13:03, Henry Rivera <hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu> wrote:
> On the other hand, people working within the current system will argue their accumulation of wealth is fair game; they are playing by the rules (which they helped to create I might add, which is the nature of oppression and built into the system in the US where there is little to limit financial influence of legislators by the wealthy relative to Europe for example). Zero State is taking the position that the logical solution is a new system that doesn't facilitate the rich getting richer by rewarding greed and oppression.

IMHO, there are a number of question here, which might be open even
for the most fervent Randian amongst us:

- "Perfect markets", even admitting that they can exist, are really
(or can even be made) intrinsically stable?

- If markets are means to an end, and *not* a religious taboo, they
certainly proved competitive in computational terms with attempts at
the economic planning of large entities in the period 1950-1990, but
there are no reason to believe that they cannot be in turn
outperformed, one example being exactly the internal workings of large
(capitalistic!) international groups or conglomerates rather than the
relative primitive countries still adopting a socialist economic
model.

- The *political* issues with capitalism, as opposed to *ethical*
issues ("greed and oppression", etc.), are IMHO:
i) Should really power and status in all societies be determined only
by one's money?
ii) Should one's money itself be determined on the exclusive basis of
features which often have little "natural" or social utility and
mostly perpetuate themselves through vicious circles and probably
outdated civilisational paradigms?
iii) Should self-referential interests of a globalist financial system
be allowed to expropriate popular sovereignties and induce stagnation
and loss of cultural/political pluralism and diversity ? la Brave New
World?

I think those are legitimate question.

And I am not sure that any Mr. Roark would think that his place is
with the fat cats in the banks.

-- 
Stefano Vaj



From kellycoinguy at gmail.com  Thu Nov 10 19:41:52 2011
From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 12:41:52 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Capitalism, anti capitalism, emotional arousal
In-Reply-To: <CAPoR7a5YXDGmfYzZS1ERLxqw8v26iqcdSoByU6d+cZhEpQoJHg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BF7498ED-47C3-4434-B841-95AF22F61F8F@alumni.Virginia.edu>
	<CAPoR7a5YXDGmfYzZS1ERLxqw8v26iqcdSoByU6d+cZhEpQoJHg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPy8RwZUV+__qzEKvdK518Fd+WMfF3HamfmacK9cKH+WVo18bQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Nov 10, 2011 at 11:59 AM, Stefano Vaj <stefano.vaj at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 10 November 2011 13:03, Henry Rivera

> And I am not sure that any Mr. Roark would think that his place is
> with the fat cats in the banks.

If I recall correctly, the desired outcome of Objectivism (Ayn Rand's
philosophy) was not for everyone to be happy, but for those who had
the capacity of Roark to be happy... and what happened to the rest of
the people was really not her concern. In her mind, they were
"dead"... they hadn't woken up and lived life, so they weren't due
anything in particular more than you would give say a horse.

The great unwashed masses were viewed by Rand as a resource, rather
like wheat or cattle or copper, but not as true human beings. That
seemed to have been reserved to the few truly gifted and motivated
people who were willing to pick up their lives by their own boot
straps and charge forward changing the world for everyone.

Now, I don't buy into this view of Rand, though I like other things
she had to say.

So yes, Roark would not work for a bank, but he might run one. The
mindless minions could turn the cranks.

The take home lesson of Objectivism would have to be answering the
question for yourself, "Am I Alive?" And from that point of view, I
think that it has a lot of merit. Well, folks, are you alive?

-Kelly


From natasha at natasha.cc  Thu Nov 10 20:08:39 2011
From: natasha at natasha.cc (natasha at natasha.cc)
Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 15:08:39 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Capitalism, anti capitalism, emotional arousal
In-Reply-To: <CAPy8RwZUV+__qzEKvdK518Fd+WMfF3HamfmacK9cKH+WVo18bQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BF7498ED-47C3-4434-B841-95AF22F61F8F@alumni.Virginia.edu>
	<CAPoR7a5YXDGmfYzZS1ERLxqw8v26iqcdSoByU6d+cZhEpQoJHg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPy8RwZUV+__qzEKvdK518Fd+WMfF3HamfmacK9cKH+WVo18bQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20111110150839.yntsygmgc744cws4@webmail.natasha.cc>



   Quoting Kelly Anderson <kellycoinguy at gmail.com>:

> Well, folks, are you alive?

   Yes, I am alive. I have read and survived Rand.?I do not support  
her objectivism nor her revenfulness. Not for a moment.

   I think she was an amazing writer and visionary narrative  
artist?and this is what stands out in my combined molecules.

   Natasha

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From kellycoinguy at gmail.com  Thu Nov 10 21:08:57 2011
From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 14:08:57 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Capitalism, anti capitalism, emotional arousal
In-Reply-To: <20111110150839.yntsygmgc744cws4@webmail.natasha.cc>
References: <BF7498ED-47C3-4434-B841-95AF22F61F8F@alumni.Virginia.edu>
	<CAPoR7a5YXDGmfYzZS1ERLxqw8v26iqcdSoByU6d+cZhEpQoJHg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPy8RwZUV+__qzEKvdK518Fd+WMfF3HamfmacK9cKH+WVo18bQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111110150839.yntsygmgc744cws4@webmail.natasha.cc>
Message-ID: <CAPy8RwZfyZPRvwoksCy7JcSTPTDDjmb-FewtUM0_ooNsVsM9Aw@mail.gmail.com>

2011/11/10  <natasha at natasha.cc>:
> Quoting Kelly Anderson <kellycoinguy at gmail.com>:
>
>>Well, folks, are you alive?
>
> Yes, I am alive.

I believe you Natasha!!!!

> I have read and survived Rand.?I do not support her
> objectivism nor her revenfulness. Not for a moment.

That is your privilege as a living person... :-)  She did seem to have
a pretty big axe to grind, but given her childhood in communist
Russia, I can somewhat forgive her over-reaction in the other
direction.

I don't have your location on the political spectrum Natasha.. is that
because you are eclectic or eccentric in your political beliefs, or
just that you haven't said?

> I think she was an amazing writer and visionary narrative artist?and this is
> what stands out in my combined molecules.

She was one of the best authors I've ever had the pleasure to have read.

Currently, I am reading "Time Enough for Love" by Heinlein... a really
on topic book for this crowd... has it been discussed here before? It
is also a very long book, on par with Atlas Shrugged for sheer volume.

-Kelly



From natasha at natasha.cc  Thu Nov 10 21:42:04 2011
From: natasha at natasha.cc (natasha at natasha.cc)
Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 16:42:04 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Capitalism, anti capitalism, emotional arousal
In-Reply-To: <CAPy8RwZfyZPRvwoksCy7JcSTPTDDjmb-FewtUM0_ooNsVsM9Aw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BF7498ED-47C3-4434-B841-95AF22F61F8F@alumni.Virginia.edu>
	<CAPoR7a5YXDGmfYzZS1ERLxqw8v26iqcdSoByU6d+cZhEpQoJHg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPy8RwZUV+__qzEKvdK518Fd+WMfF3HamfmacK9cKH+WVo18bQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111110150839.yntsygmgc744cws4@webmail.natasha.cc>
	<CAPy8RwZfyZPRvwoksCy7JcSTPTDDjmb-FewtUM0_ooNsVsM9Aw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20111110164204.a0lp2q6c5ws40wc8@webmail.natasha.cc>



   Quoting Kelly Anderson <kellycoinguy at gmail.com>:

> 2011/11/10? <natasha at natasha.cc>:
>> Quoting Kelly Anderson <kellycoinguy at gmail.com>:
>>> Well, folks, are you alive?
>> Yes, I am alive.
> I believe you Natasha!!!!

   :-)
>> I have read and survived Rand.?I do not support her
>> objectivism nor her reven[ge]fulness. Not for a moment.

> That is your privilege as a living person... :-)? She did seem to have
> a pretty big axe to grind, but given her childhood in communist
> Russia, I can somewhat forgive her over-reaction in the other
> direction.

   I emote, therefore?I am.

   > I don't have your location on the political spectrum Natasha.. is that
> because you are eclectic or eccentric in your political beliefs, or
> just that you haven't said?

   I was a Liberal, Democrat, then an elected Green Councilperson  
for?LA County. ... ?Then I started thinking.? ... Now "I am neither  
right nor left" (Esfandiary). I tend to be more of an insightful  
Dennis Miller type than a biased Laura Ingraham type. I am not  
interested in blame and hate against those who own companies and  
provide jobs to others. Nor do I think it is?okay for shareholders to  
give ridiculous bonuses to themselves and also take money from the  
government. And I do not respect presidents to vacation in Martha?s  
Vineyard or Tim Buck Two, when people are jobless. And I certainly do  
not think that people should be receiving unemployment payout for an  
extended period of time. But I do think that one?thrives when one  
cares for?others. Narratives (TV, film, books or whatever) that make  
money off of dumbing down society are a terrible crime against humanity.

   My ideological position is as a designer. ?I think about  
socio-economics and biopolitics as a design problem. My political  
leaning:?"locate the problem, find the most effective way to resolve  
it, and get going."? This has to be done?with an?unbiased, logical  
methodology for seeing what is most workable, doable with the most  
amount of thought/knowledge and the least amount of waste.? It is a  
formula to resolve rather than to label.?



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From dennislmay at yahoo.com  Thu Nov 10 22:10:43 2011
From: dennislmay at yahoo.com (Dennis May)
Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 14:10:43 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ExI]  Capitalism, anti capitalism, emotional arousal
Message-ID: <1320963043.17735.YahooMailNeo@web112111.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

Natasha??wrote:
?
< My ideological position is as a designer.? I think about? 
< socio-economics and biopolitics as a design problem. My political? 
< leaning: "locate the problem, find the most effective way to resolve? 
< it, and get going."? This has to be done with an unbiased, logical? 
< methodology for seeing what is most workable, doable with the most? 
< amount of thought/knowledge and the least amount of waste.? It is a? 
< formula to resolve rather than to label.
?
The correct design solution is to create the societal infrastructure
for free people to find their own solutions - whether this is a minimalist
government or Anarcho-Capitalism.
?
If on the other hand you intend to?micro-manage you will immediately
run into the issue of insufficient knowledge to correctly carry out the
task of designing - and people will suffer as a result.
?
Dennis May
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From natasha at natasha.cc  Thu Nov 10 22:39:31 2011
From: natasha at natasha.cc (natasha at natasha.cc)
Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 17:39:31 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Capitalism, anti capitalism, emotional arousal
In-Reply-To: <1320963043.17735.YahooMailNeo@web112111.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <1320963043.17735.YahooMailNeo@web112111.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20111110173931.wi1k257kusow00sk@webmail.natasha.cc>



   Quoting Dennis May <dennislmay at yahoo.com>:

> Natasha??wrote:
> ?
> < My ideological position is as a designer.? I think about?
> < socio-economics and biopolitics as a design problem. My political?
> < leaning: "locate the problem, find the most effective way to resolve?
> < it, and get going."? This has to be done with an unbiased, logical?
> < methodology for seeing what is most workable, doable with the most?
> < amount of thought/knowledge and the least amount of waste.? It is a?
> < formula to resolve rather than to label.
> ?
> The correct design solution is to create the societal infrastructure
> for free people to find their own solutions - whether this is a minimalist
> government or Anarcho-Capitalism.

   Let's look at what you are saying: "the correct design solution" is  
actually your correct design solution because you?are supposing two  
systems. So, this might be better called "a design system" and that  
design system is considering a social infrastructure for people who  
are free and choose between?minimalist government and  
anarcho-capitalism as variables.

   > If on the other hand you intend to?micro-manage you will immediately
> run into the issue of insufficient knowledge to correctly carry out the
> task of designing - and people will suffer as a result.

   Micromanaging is a behavioral approach?to managing?others, and not  
a pleasant or healthy characteristic.?

   Design is a process that?finds solutions for specific situations.?



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From hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu  Thu Nov 10 23:09:13 2011
From: hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu (Henry Rivera)
Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 18:09:13 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Capitalism, anti capitalism, emotional arousal
Message-ID: <B316D68E-126D-42E4-8BDE-18FF0C04F4F5@alumni.virginia.edu>

On Thu, 10 Nov 2011 11:55:19 -0700
Kelly Anderson <kellycoinguy at gmail.com> wrote:

On Thu, Nov 10, 2011 at 5:03 AM, Henry Rivera
<hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu> wrote:
> My view is that capitalism is a means to an end which will become obsolete
> after a certain tipping point.

So what do you see as the inevitable final system Henry?

-Kelly

It's hard to imagine, but I'll venture a guess. (And I won't assume it is final but just a subsequent reality.) Maybe unfettered being with unlimited resources and information at one's disposal. True free will restrained by a desire to avoid harming other sentience. And zero suffering (in a hat tip to Amon).
-Henry 
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Thu Nov 10 23:39:30 2011
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 16:39:30 -0700
Subject: [ExI] overposting reminder ...
In-Reply-To: <CAAoBNdWLkv64rn6zfehprs+juFmLtAuhDWDMfcyiuYHn==Nciw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <00a401cc9fb2$8c847db0$a58d7910$@att.net>
	<CAAoBNdWLkv64rn6zfehprs+juFmLtAuhDWDMfcyiuYHn==Nciw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy3acKE_ouJiXL5Bachhps22Jg4WeP7YWMJKw27Kqc8ioA@mail.gmail.com>

>
> 2011/11/10 spike <spike66 at att.net>
>
>>  ** **
>>
>> I don?t like being the heavy, especially considering my lack of mass.
>> But do watch the posting limit.  We have a guideline of about five a day,
>> eight triggers the warning.  Thanks!
>>
>

I've heard three rumors about what happens if a person consistently
overposts.  One is that Spike's eyes start glowing and he transforms into a
900 pound green behemoth who will supersonically jump his way to your home
address, to administer a very stern lecture.


"SPIKE*NOT*LIKE*YOU*OVERPOSTING*SO*U*BETTER*STOP!!!," is likely what he
will say as he pokes you in the chest hard enough to leave a light bruise.
But considering how the other Hulk behaves, Spike is the picture of
self-control and good manners, even when under the emotional duress of
being a near-mindless monster with anger management issues.


The other story told is that Spike and Natasha don super-cool looking black
leather outfits as really cool music plays in the background by Daft Punk,
and then they phone in their way to the overposting bad guy's place!  You
will barely know what hit you as they pounce with an array of awesome
slo-mo Matrix Kung Fu kicks and punches!!!   After the beating you will
sincerely hope that someone caught the whole thing on their camcorder, so
you can upload it to Youtube and share it with the world to celebrate their
awesomeness!


Finally, there may be a list which has the names of all frequent
overposters, who will now be forever banned from joining with the Extropian
Jupiter Brain created at the advent of the Singularity.  And so all the
other list members will get to explore the universe with lots of other cool
people, but you get stuck on Earth watching television reruns.  This would
be far worse than not even getting to go to Italy on a highschool class
trip! lol


But hey, these stories are only rumors...


John  ; )
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Fri Nov 11 00:10:57 2011
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 17:10:57 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Science Daily: Erasing Signs of Aging in Human Cells Now a
	Reality
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy0PWtQr=_2_m5MKfS2nt04A5o0W4aZsn6xap12oWu8Eog@mail.gmail.com>

And so considering this achievement, what can we expect over the next 5-20
years?


http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/11/111103120605.htm


John
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Fri Nov 11 00:16:38 2011
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 17:16:38 -0700
Subject: [ExI] the new improve ASIMO robot from Japan
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy0_bR45y0hW=v0ktu2Uj37P9+dL1ZRoTQRNUMk+97zAMA@mail.gmail.com>

I'm quite impressed and wonder how far along they will be in a mere ten
year...


http://singularityhub.com/2011/11/10/a-first-look-at-the-slimmer-and-smarter-asimo-humanoid-robot-video/?utm_source=The+Harvest+Is+Bountiful&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=60f7e2113e-RSS_EMAIL_CAMPAIGN


John  : )
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Fri Nov 11 00:26:03 2011
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 17:26:03 -0700
Subject: [ExI] the new and improved ASIMO robot from Japan
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy1=+yUhBNSSpXmokRdzU8yJMt9ZX1VnaNy339OBg1Hi4A@mail.gmail.com>

I'm quite impressed and wonder how far along they will be in a mere ten
years...


http://singularityhub.com/2011/11/10/a-first-look-at-the-slimmer-and-smarter-asimo-humanoid-robot-video/?utm_source=The+Harvest+Is+Bountiful&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=60f7e2113e-RSS_EMAIL_CAMPAIGN


John  : )


P.S.  I think I was asleep at the keyboard when I sent out the first
posting about this link.
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From spike66 at att.net  Fri Nov 11 02:16:57 2011
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 18:16:57 -0800
Subject: [ExI] forwarding tara maya's post: capitalism, etc
Message-ID: <029401cca017$fd583490$f8089db0$@att.net>

From: Tara Maya [mailto:tara at taramayastales.com] 
Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2011 1:48 PM
To: ExI chat list
Subject: Re: [ExI] Capitalism, anti capitalism, emotional arousal

 

Almost none of my emails get through, so I apologize if I am cramming too
many ideas in at once. These are my thoughts inspired by the ongoing
discussion.

1. Happiness vs. Suffering
There is no utopia possible, because of human nature. Actually, it's worse
than that. Change human nature, and is utopia possible? No. Even if we all
upload or evolve, we are not going to have a utopia. Happiness (and
suffering) exist to let encourage (or warn) you to pursue actions  that will
(hopefully) prolong your survival or your relatives' survival, and that is
true of all living beings, not just humans. So the goal of eliminating all
suffering is a ludicrous one. Not only it isn't possible, it isn't
desirable. Life pays one coin, heads happiness, tails suffering. If you
eliminate all suffering, you eliminate all happiness; you end life.

2. Pragmatism vs. Dogmatism
Despite my belief that one cannot eliminate ALL suffering, I do believe
certain systems/regimes/relationships, etc. are worse than they need to be.
The way we can tell things can be better is that we (1) try something new
and find it to be better, or (2) see someone else try something new and find
it to be better. (Though we must be careful: the cash is always greener on
the other side of the economy.) 

The smartest thing Zero State has said so far is that they will try out and
test their ideas before advocating them. Some deeper reading of history
would also be instructive. One thing I like about the Occupy movement is
that they are trying to be the change they advocate. We, as well as they,
can all see consensus decision making become tyranny of the few over the
many, rape and abuse of property proliferate, taxation taken without
representation, and other problems plague the Occupy camps. This would not
have surprised anyone who had studied the long history of similar movements,
but if the Occupy folks have better solutions to these problems than they
have yet demonstrated, this would be the time to dazzle the world.

3. Evolution vs. Revolution
Revolutions are never undertaken by the bottom of society against the top.
They are always undertaken by the next-to-the-top of society against the
top. They usually only result in a new top. Historically, revolutions don't
have a good track record in actually improving the lot of the common joe and
jane. Evolution and innovation, slow and steady change that is much less
dramatic and not nearly so romantic, has a much better record of improving
the lives of everyone. 

Personally, I don't really understand the complaint that nothing at all is
working in our present society, so we ought to throw ALL of it out, and
start over from scratch. Starting over from scratch is a really bad idea.
You couldn't do it even if you wanted to, but if you wanted to, you'd have
...what? A cave, a stick and a rock? Seriously? The past ten thousand
generations of humans have toiled to give us, their descendants, the benefit
of their wisdom and hard work, and they have managed to pass this on to us
in a way that most animals cannot. Most animals do indeed start from scratch
every new generation, and far from changing their lives for the better, this
perpetual "revolution" only leads them to replicate the exact lifestyle of
their predecessors. It is precisely because we do NOT have to start from
scratch, because we are not condemned to perpetual revolution, that we can
stand on the shoulders of our parents and grandparents and see farther over
the horizon. To kick out the support under us would only make us fall,
perhaps to an even lower level than what we hope to replace.

4. Capitalism vs. Anti-captialism
I was raised a socialist, so the "anything but capitalism" mindset is like
mother's milk to me. But I have weaned. I learned to love capitalism the
hard way, by hating it first, and trying my best to destroy it. I learned
through trying to put anything-but-capitalism into effect, by trying it out
on a small scale, or seeing others try. In each case, anti-capitalism
returned my love with nothing but a slap to the face, whereas capitalism
returned rewards despite my loathing for it. For instance, while I was
active trying to put consensus decision-making into practice, I had two
friends who were both involved in anti-poverty programs. One roused the
Third-World workers of a certain factory in a certain Third-World state to
go on strike against the international corporation that ran the factory. The
corporation moved the factory to Vietnam and they all lost their jobs. Of
course, you could blame capitalism for that (Vietnam, as we all know, fought
a long war for the right to become a capitalist paradise), which we all did,
promptly and loudly. But meanwhile, the other friend was working with the
Grameen bank to give out micro-loans. The poor people prospered and started
their own businesses. The first activist, who had gotten the factory closed,
decided to try Grameen loans with her community (those who would still speak
to her). She was a little worried, though, and asked the second activist,
"But... loans to start new businesses... isn't that capitalism?" (She, like
all of us, belonged to the anything-but-capitalism school.) The second
activist reassured her, "Oh, no, not at all. Well. A little. But it really
works!" 

A lightbulb went off in my head. Not a big one. More like Christmas-light
size bulb. It took many more strings of little colored lights from all
different sources to convince me that capitalism, like democracy, is a lousy
system of economy, but better than all the rest. If you have a system that
works better, I'm all for it, but I'd like proof, not promises.


5. Future vs. Present
For a hundred years or more we've heard promises that the human race is
about to outgrow capitalism, but I suspect it is the other way around. I
suspect that there is so much opposition to capitalism because the human
race has yet to grow INTO it. In every nation that is touched by capitalism
and democracy, and the industrial revolution and demographic revolution that
accompanies that dangerous duo, certain individuals (and often certain
ethnic groups) prosper first, because they are better able to grasp the
opportunities. Naturally, this creates a backlash of anger, indeed, burning
hatred, against them. They are denounced as thieves and villains, even if
their activities actually raise the standard of living of all those around
them. In Nigeria, they have a saying, "The child who brings back the most
wood will be accused of collecting it from a taboo forest." The person who
earns less than you is pitied; the person who earns more than you is
resented.

It would be wonderful indeed if we could live in a world where we had
neither to pity nor resent our neighbors, but what system would this be? The
great achievement of capitalism is to coordinate reciprocal altruism on a
scale of billions. What system can replace this? Most attempts to replace
capitalism have appealed to the sentiments of mutual care that we all know
(I hope) from the family, where members love each other unconditionally, and
sacrifice even their very lives for one another without hesitation. We may
feel this way also for our dear friends, and possibly, members of our
cultural/religious community, who share ideas so closely with us that they
are like family. But it is very hard to scale up. Even our soldiers, who
give their lives for their nation, expect to be paid for the honor. The fact
is that we are not ants, or coral reefs, with millions of members so closely
genetically related that Darwin's law helps us help each other. 

In the West, we citizens are not only of different families, but of
different tribes, different races, different religions, different
world-views. And so attempts to found an economy on the altruism specific to
the family (evolved through kin selection) always ends in one of two ways:
back at capitalism, or down the road to authoritarianism. If you will not
pay your neighbor for his labor, he will not give it to you unless you
enslave him. So the USSR and Nazi Germany became slave camps; while the
Oneida commune and Israeli kibbutzim became corporations.

How does any of this relate to transhumanism? I fear it is quite at the
heart of the future. If transhumans become an entirely separate species, or
collection of species, attempts to appeal to family models of economics (kin
based altruism) will be even more doomed to fail. The fall-back position of
organizing through mass enslavement will be an ongoing temptation. The only
humane alternative is capitalism. Money is blind to your race, your
religion, your politics or your gender, or even whether you are human at
all. (Isn't that what everyone hates about it?) But this is exactly why it
is what can guarantee that transhumans and AIs and humans and whatever will
be, can still live in peace, as neighbors, in democratic societies of the
future, each earning his/her/its own living in his/her/its own way without
hurting anyone else by his/her/its industry. But I predict there will be
blood shed in the name of "brotherly" love before that is allowed to happen.



Tara Maya

 

 

 

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From spike66 at att.net  Fri Nov 11 02:59:54 2011
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 18:59:54 -0800
Subject: [ExI] forwarding tara maya's post: capitalism, etc
In-Reply-To: <029401cca017$fd583490$f8089db0$@att.net>
References: <029401cca017$fd583490$f8089db0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <02a701cca01d$fd7e4b70$f87ae250$@att.net>

 

Almost none of my emails get through, so I apologize if I am cramming too
many ideas in at once. These are my thoughts inspired by the ongoing
discussion.

1. Happiness vs. Suffering.
2. Pragmatism vs. Dogmatism.
3. Evolution vs. Revolution..

4. Capitalism vs. Anti-captialism.
5. Future vs. Present
.Tara Maya

 

 

 

 

WOW this is an excellent essay Tara, thanks!

 

Tara's server is uncooperative, which is why I was the one who forwarded
this.  Tara, welcome to ExI.  Do feel free to tell us something about Tara.
Actually you already have.  That part about microloans is really cool.

 

spike

 

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From seculartranshumanist at gmail.com  Fri Nov 11 03:38:07 2011
From: seculartranshumanist at gmail.com (Joseph Bloch)
Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 22:38:07 -0500
Subject: [ExI] China model vs. US model
Message-ID: <CAOFRd6gYcvHHVq=rsPHKFNMX_C1fQTj1ME+EoD4E5q+6RnKMLA@mail.gmail.com>

Especially in light of the recent discussion, I thought this article
was interesting:

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/nov/9/beijing-blueprint/?page=all#pagebreak

The focus on the article is the relative strengths of weaknesses of
China's political dictatorship vs. the US's political pluralism, but
the common thread seems to be the fact that both seem to be sharing a
common economic system.

Perhaps just as we speak of "democratic socialism", we might need to
enlarge our vocabulary to also include "democratic capitalism" and
"autocratic capitalism". Or would the latter simply be "fascism"?

Joe


From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Fri Nov 11 04:57:36 2011
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 21:57:36 -0700
Subject: [ExI] China model vs. US model
In-Reply-To: <CAOFRd6gYcvHHVq=rsPHKFNMX_C1fQTj1ME+EoD4E5q+6RnKMLA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOFRd6gYcvHHVq=rsPHKFNMX_C1fQTj1ME+EoD4E5q+6RnKMLA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy3dqt0w1yDKspwHrbxLAE9=en3RBifih+M6JQCRMq8RMA@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Nov 10, 2011 at 8:38 PM, Joseph Bloch <
seculartranshumanist at gmail.com> wrote:

> Especially in light of the recent discussion, I thought this article
> was interesting:
>
>
> http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/nov/9/beijing-blueprint/?page=all#pagebreak
>
> The focus on the article is the relative strengths of weaknesses of
> China's political dictatorship vs. the US's political pluralism, but
> the common thread seems to be the fact that both seem to be sharing a
> common economic system.
> >>>
>

I found the article very interesting!  I am sharing with you and the list,
a summary I wrote of a talk by Orville Schell, a very well-known China
expert.  He spoke to a small group at the Scottsdale Performing Arts
Center.  I really wish more people had attended...


John


Written by John Grigg in 2010:
Orville Schell, an Asian studies scholar and prominent journalist, spoke
last night at the Scottsdale Performing Arts Center. This frail (the
epitome of a very aged Ivy Leaguer) but charmingly earnest man shared his
troubling insights with us. He is extremely impressed both with China's
rapid growth over the last two decades, and the ability of the Communist
regime to maintain power. But he admitted deep reservations about China's
human rights record and the nature of their global influence as they grow
in power.



Schell said he had no crystal ball to give a certain prediction of the
future, and he felt things could easily go either way, in terms of the
Communists keeping a tight hold on power with very limited civil liberties
allowed, or the other scenario being where a societal blow-up causes
radical political change in ways the U.S. would like to see. He felt the
regime and society is tightly wound and the leadership, despite their
tyrannical power, tread carefully to avoid another Tiananmen Square
(Chinese leaders feel they might have narrowly avoided a toppling & it
could happen again). The Chinese govt. over the years liked to blame
foreigners for China's problems, but that incident in particular shook the
Chinese psyche deeply because they could only blame themselves for what
happened.



China he stated, does not have a firm foundation and sense of itself, as
compared to the United States with it's Constitution, Bill of Rights, and
moral compass (that we often fail to live up to, as he admitted). The
Chinese have Confucianism, Buddhism, Communism, Christianity, etc., but
nothing as defining as what our relatively new nation has to guide it. And
so they are in some ways feeling their way toward the future and trying as
a people to define themselves. But he did say that the Chinese people (top
to bottom) have a very strong sense of cultural destiny/nationalism that
drives them forward, while on the other hand, Americans have largely lost
this burning passion.



He spoke in detail about his recent trips to China and how he finds the
gigantic airports, road systems, stores, bridges and general infrastructure
there to be stunning. At one time China was known for shoddy construction,
but he said those days are largely past, and a visit to a gorgeous and
utterly massive performing arts center there made his jaw drop in wonder.
During his regular visits there (about every three months or so), Schell
notices the many changes due to the explosive growth. He stated that they
are overtaking the U.S. at a dizzying rate that is not fully grasped in the
nation, despite all the talk over here about China.



Schell was very impressed at how the Chinese Communist regime has made a
"Leninist market economy" work so well. In the U.S. we mock the idea of the
classic Soviet style "five year plans," but he said the Chinese are master
long-term planners, and they allocate vast resources toward scientific
research centers, public infrastructure, green-tech, or whatever else they
see as vital that needs financial nurturing. The government guides and
nourishes their free market economy in ways that have so far reaped great
rewards. And the Chinese have the *deep pockets* to grow their nation.



But on the other hand, Schell said the United States govt. is a basketcase
of rival political factions who have a hard time getting anything done, due
to all the infighting! And due to our inability to control our debt, we
have much less money than the Chinese to spend on vital things such as
science research or infrastructure. He spent many years in Washington and
what he saw there utterly disappointed him.



Regarding technology and business, he stated that Americans are gifted
innovators, and the Chinese have a long way to go to fully develop this
trait. But he thought it was crazy that we allow foreign students to come
here and get advanced science degrees, but then we order them home, rather
than letting them get citizenship and settle here! And now many Chinese
students don't even want to live here, because they feel there is greater
opportunity in their homeland!



I found it very painful when Schell admitted his doubts about whether the
American/Western model of government is really the best in the world, and
what may just triumph in the end. He confessed that he had a sinking
feeling the Chinese "Leninist Market" system may prove superior to our own
beloved democratic system, because they can save and spend wisely, and plan
& act in long-term ways, without our crippling bickering, deadlock and
short-sighted self-interest.



But he admitted that China does have its challenges. Pollution is a major
problem, but the Chinese are trying to deal with it by investing vastly
more money than we are to develop green-tech. Another huge fear of the
regime is that the 170 million rural people who moved to the cities to find
factory and construction jobs, might rebel if the economy slows down and
many of them become unemployed. The govt does not ever want to deploy large
numbers of military forces to put down their own people, but facing such
monstrous numbers would be nightmarish for conventional law enforcement.
Also, China needs to become much more of a consumer economy, as compared to
being an exporting economy. And so they must maintain economic growth to
expand their middle class.



Schell touched on Taiwan, saying the new generation of leaders there are
much more sensitive to the wishes of the mainland, and so he sees hope in
things being resolved non-violently. As for Tibet, the Chinese feel it was
once part of their ancient empire, and so they have the right to it. And
they view the Tibetans as ingrates for not appreciating the billions poured
into the nation, along with Chinese settlers!



I enjoyed his candor and was taken aback by his painful honesty about
America's self-destructiveness as compared to Chinese ascension. I had
expected to hear how China was not really a true challenger and that things
were being overstated in the media, but this was not to be.



As I looked over the audience I notice very few people in their twenties or
even thirties. I found this both sad and astonishing, since young people
are the ones who will have to deal with this coming of age rival superpower
that within 15 years will outstrip us economically. I could have been
visiting a retirement home...



There was a Q & A session, but some of the subjects I wanted to see
addressed, were not. I desired his opinion about the growth of the Chinese
military, the space program, and also their very successful espionage
machine that steals a great deal from us (so much for innovation...). And I
would have enjoyed his insights about the lack of young people in the
audience.

 I learned that there is an annual conference in Scottsdale, Arizona about
the U.S./China relationship, but that this year it was cancelled.  And
yet fortunately, Orville Schell still came to speak.



http://orvilleschell.com/index.htm



John Grigg
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From eugen at leitl.org  Fri Nov 11 07:56:26 2011
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 08:56:26 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Why Pioneers Breed Like Rabbits
Message-ID: <20111111075626.GX31847@leitl.org>


(same thing applies for edge of populated space)

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=why-pioneers-breed-like-rabbits&WT.mc_id=SA_WR_20111110

Why Pioneers Breed Like Rabbits

Families that colonized the Canadian frontier contributed more genetic
material to the modern population than folks who stayed home, says a new
study

By Sarah Fecht  | Thursday, November 3, 2011 | 11

Pioneers at the forefront of expansion may have an evolutionary edge over
those who come later Image: Wikimedia Commons

In the classic book series, Little House on the Prairie, Pa's wanderlust
repeatedly drives the Ingalls family westward past the edges of civilization.
That craving for open space is probably what drove Homo sapiens to leave
Africa in the first place and spread across the globe. According to new
research, the desire to expand into new territory may have provided an
evolutionary advantage to those who had it over those who lacked it.

The study, published November 4 in Science, analyzed the genealogies of
settlers in Canada's Charlevoix Saguenay Lac-Saint-Jean region, northeast of
Quebec City. Since the colony's initiation in 1608, it underwent several
waves of geographic expansion. The researchers, led by population geneticist
Laurent Excoffier of the University of Montreal, looked at the colony's
marriage and birth records between 1686 and 1960. The analysis found that
families living on the edges of the expansions had 20 percent more children
than families living at the settlement's core. They also married one year
earlier, on average, and contributed up to four times more genes to the
region's current population.

"This is a lovely paper," said Henry Harpending, an anthropologist at
University of Utah, who did not participate in the study. Although the
researchers could only include births registered in church records, which
most likely excluded illegitimate births, Harpending said the researchers
"did a thorough job, and analyzed lots of data."

The notion that pioneers tend to have more babies is consistent with the
behavior of other species. Expose a bare patch of land, and the first plants
to colonize it will most likely be species that grow quickly, reproduce
early, and create many offspring. But these early colonizers eventually cede
space to other plants that are slower growing but more efficient at using
resources such as water, nutrients and space. Shrubs and trees, for instance,
grow slowly and produce fewer offspring, but invest enough energy and
resources in those offspring to make them highly competitive in the long run.

Humans are generally more like shrubs and trees: slow growing (children take
more than a decade to reach adulthood) and efficient consumers of resources.
(Quick-breeding rabbits and mice, by contrast, are the weeds of the mammal
world.) But a change in environment can turn a slow grower into a weed. That
is what happened, Harpending says, when North American settlers found
themselves on the fringes of civilization.

Although ecologists have studied the dichotomy between fast versus slow
growers since the 1960s, they only recently started considering how range
expansion might affect those strategies; in a 2010 paper in the journal
Ecology, Benjamin Phillips, a research fellow at James Cook University in
Australia (who was not involved in the research), was the first to explore
expansion?s effects on life-history traits. He theorized that populations
have an incentive to grow exponentially when there are plentiful resources
and space. Once those niches fill up, individuals switch to a more
slow-growing, competitive strategy. But some individuals will always be on
the outskirts, with greater space and more resources. For them, it makes
sense to return to an exponential growth pattern. As populations expand
outward and then space gradually fills, Phillips's theory goes, groups on the
edge should experience rapid evolution between life-history strategies.

Support for the theory comes from several other ecological studies. Pine
trees in expanding populations have shorter generation times and smaller,
more dispersive seeds. Invasive purple loosestrife plants grow more rapidly,
and presumably reproduce earlier, than loosestrife within the plants' native
range. "It's quite amazing to see that the model fits for humans as well,"
Phillips says, "although it's not entirely surprising, since you would expect
just about any species to be governed by the same natural laws."

What was surprising to Harpending was that the increased fertility on the
expansion front seemed to have a genetic component. Pioneering ancestors with
high fertility had children who also eventually had high fertility, although
those effects were moderated by whether the offspring lived on the frontier
or within the colony's core.

Although Phillips's model does not account for such cultural complexities, it
looks as if the simple laws of nature explain the colonial behavior of humans
just as well as that of weeds and pine trees.



From dan_ust at yahoo.com  Fri Nov 11 11:09:22 2011
From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan Ust)
Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 06:09:22 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Electrically driven directional motion of a four-wheeled
	molecule on a metal surface
Message-ID: <6AC23495-288B-4392-BDCA-755C503CB7E8@yahoo.com>

http://www.physorg.com/news240075151.html

See also Nature report.

Dan


From pharos at gmail.com  Fri Nov 11 11:07:12 2011
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 11:07:12 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Why Pioneers Breed Like Rabbits
In-Reply-To: <20111111075626.GX31847@leitl.org>
References: <20111111075626.GX31847@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <CAL_armgaiLi05r9aMoOP9aFS31GmeTTSWGJWQ6npCFdxqTYnhQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 7:56 AM, Eugen Leitl wrote:
>
> (same thing applies for edge of populated space)
>
> http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=why-pioneers-breed-like-rabbits&WT.mc_id=SA_WR_20111110
>
> Why Pioneers Breed Like Rabbits
>
> Families that colonized the Canadian frontier contributed more genetic
> material to the modern population than folks who stayed home, says a new
> study
>
>


I like this paper. It explains how human (and all life) expands into
unpopulated areas.

But it stops at space.  'Simple' evolutionary life expands to fill
niches where it can find life support. It doesn't expand into deadly,
barren environments. Only a few try it, most die, and few return to
tell their tales.

OK, so you might claim that advanced human descendants would take
their life support along with them plus all the technology to create
more life support for all their progeny.

But advanced civilisation is the opposite of breeding like rabbits.
Evolutionary expansion no longer applies. They *choose* their
environment and build it to suit themselves. They *choose* how many
progeny they want to create and for what purpose. If they have
thousand-year lifespans they will probably create very few offspring.
The idea of creating millions of entities and firing them off to
colonise the universe is an insane waste of resources originating in
primitive human evolutionary drives.


BillK


From eugen at leitl.org  Fri Nov 11 12:05:52 2011
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 13:05:52 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Why Pioneers Breed Like Rabbits
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armgaiLi05r9aMoOP9aFS31GmeTTSWGJWQ6npCFdxqTYnhQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20111111075626.GX31847@leitl.org>
	<CAL_armgaiLi05r9aMoOP9aFS31GmeTTSWGJWQ6npCFdxqTYnhQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20111111120552.GZ31847@leitl.org>

On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 11:07:12AM +0000, BillK wrote:

> I like this paper. It explains how human (and all life) expands into
> unpopulated areas.

That papers explains why pioneers change their strategy to
harvest maximum benefits; it shouldn't take a paper to convince
anyone that life is intrinsically expansive. A look out of
your window or your mere existances should be sufficient
proof.
 
> But it stops at space.  'Simple' evolutionary life expands to fill

Did you just call Canadians simple evolutionary life, eh? ;)

> niches where it can find life support. It doesn't expand into deadly,
> barren environments. Only a few try it, most die, and few return to
> tell their tales.

Life which is capable of restructuring hitherto barren environments
into occupyable niches (niche (auto-)construction) has no such issues.  
 
> OK, so you might claim that advanced human descendants would take
> their life support along with them plus all the technology to create
> more life support for all their progeny.

I'm claiming that machine-phase (which can be extremely simple)
can live natively in the space environment, in fact thrive in it.
Everyone else just doesn't matter, long-term.
 
> But advanced civilisation is the opposite of breeding like rabbits.

Somebody fetch me an advanced civilisation, then. Before then, 
arguing about properties of such is indistinguishable from unicornology.

> Evolutionary expansion no longer applies. They *choose* their
> environment and build it to suit themselves. They *choose* how many
> progeny they want to create and for what purpose. If they have

The point of above paper that people and plants behave in the same
way, so it's a generic principle which is very likely scale- and 
substrate-invariant.

> thousand-year lifespans they will probably create very few offspring.

Evolution optimizes also generation lifespan durations. Diversity 
enhances stability and decreases amount of control.

> The idea of creating millions of entities and firing them off to
> colonise the universe is an insane waste of resources originating in
> primitive human evolutionary drives.

Yes, that's your opinion, we know. The universe disagrees.



From pharos at gmail.com  Fri Nov 11 12:27:43 2011
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 12:27:43 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Why Pioneers Breed Like Rabbits
In-Reply-To: <20111111120552.GZ31847@leitl.org>
References: <20111111075626.GX31847@leitl.org>
	<CAL_armgaiLi05r9aMoOP9aFS31GmeTTSWGJWQ6npCFdxqTYnhQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111111120552.GZ31847@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <CAL_armiAkj9fkdNr0PmfSxr-0J0hEy7qytW=tSgaV9fSuyFcOw@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 12:05 PM, Eugen Leitl wrote:
<snip>
> Yes, that's your opinion, we know. The universe disagrees.
>
>

Ah, but the universe doesn't disagree. If any advanced civ ever did
have expansionary ambitions the age of our galaxy means that it would
already be swamped by that species - even at sub-light expansion
speeds.

'Where is everybody?'


BillK


From eugen at leitl.org  Fri Nov 11 12:49:09 2011
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 13:49:09 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Why Pioneers Breed Like Rabbits
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armiAkj9fkdNr0PmfSxr-0J0hEy7qytW=tSgaV9fSuyFcOw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20111111075626.GX31847@leitl.org>
	<CAL_armgaiLi05r9aMoOP9aFS31GmeTTSWGJWQ6npCFdxqTYnhQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111111120552.GZ31847@leitl.org>
	<CAL_armiAkj9fkdNr0PmfSxr-0J0hEy7qytW=tSgaV9fSuyFcOw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20111111124909.GB31847@leitl.org>

On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 12:27:43PM +0000, BillK wrote:
> On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 12:05 PM, Eugen Leitl wrote:
> <snip>
> > Yes, that's your opinion, we know. The universe disagrees.
> >
> >
> 
> Ah, but the universe doesn't disagree. If any advanced civ ever did

Maybe the unicorns shit invisible fumets, or maybe the unicorns
are simply not there.

We're not in anyone's smart light cone.

> have expansionary ambitions the age of our galaxy means that it would
> already be swamped by that species - even at sub-light expansion
> speeds.
> 
> 'Where is everybody?'

As observing observer-extinguishing/observer-emergence-preventing
relativistic expansion wavefronts is hard the best way to observe
one is to be the nucleus of one. Don't look right now, but you're
soaking in it.

-- 
Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE


From dennislmay at yahoo.com  Fri Nov 11 12:38:44 2011
From: dennislmay at yahoo.com (Dennis May)
Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 04:38:44 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ExI] Why Pioneers Breed Like Rabbits
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armiAkj9fkdNr0PmfSxr-0J0hEy7qytW=tSgaV9fSuyFcOw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20111111075626.GX31847@leitl.org>
	<CAL_armgaiLi05r9aMoOP9aFS31GmeTTSWGJWQ6npCFdxqTYnhQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111111120552.GZ31847@leitl.org>
	<CAL_armiAkj9fkdNr0PmfSxr-0J0hEy7qytW=tSgaV9fSuyFcOw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1321015124.79742.YahooMailNeo@web112120.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

Bill K wrote:
?
'Where is everybody?'

Hiding from predators.? Even rabbits are
scarce when predators have free reign.
?
Dennis


________________________________
From: BillK <pharos at gmail.com>
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 6:27 AM
Subject: Re: [ExI] Why Pioneers Breed Like Rabbits

On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 12:05 PM, Eugen Leitl wrote:
<snip>
> Yes, that's your opinion, we know. The universe disagrees.
>
>

Ah, but the universe doesn't disagree. If any advanced civ ever did
have expansionary ambitions the age of our galaxy means that it would
already be swamped by that species - even at sub-light expansion
speeds.

'Where is everybody?'


BillK
_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
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From eugen at leitl.org  Fri Nov 11 13:05:20 2011
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 14:05:20 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Why Pioneers Breed Like Rabbits
In-Reply-To: <1321015124.79742.YahooMailNeo@web112120.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <20111111075626.GX31847@leitl.org>
	<CAL_armgaiLi05r9aMoOP9aFS31GmeTTSWGJWQ6npCFdxqTYnhQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111111120552.GZ31847@leitl.org>
	<CAL_armiAkj9fkdNr0PmfSxr-0J0hEy7qytW=tSgaV9fSuyFcOw@mail.gmail.com>
	<1321015124.79742.YahooMailNeo@web112120.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20111111130520.GC31847@leitl.org>

On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 04:38:44AM -0800, Dennis May wrote:
> Bill K wrote:
> ?
> 'Where is everybody?'
> 
> Hiding from predators.? Even rabbits are
> scarce when predators have free reign.

Sure, they'll be coming for our women and chocolate.
Any day now.

Q: What is the difference between an unoccupied solar system
and our solar system? 

A: None whatsoever. Both are crunchy, and good with ketchup.


From dennislmay at yahoo.com  Fri Nov 11 13:22:59 2011
From: dennislmay at yahoo.com (Dennis May)
Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 05:22:59 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ExI] Why Pioneers Breed Like Rabbits
In-Reply-To: <1321015124.79742.YahooMailNeo@web112120.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <20111111075626.GX31847@leitl.org>
	<CAL_armgaiLi05r9aMoOP9aFS31GmeTTSWGJWQ6npCFdxqTYnhQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111111120552.GZ31847@leitl.org>
	<CAL_armiAkj9fkdNr0PmfSxr-0J0hEy7qytW=tSgaV9fSuyFcOw@mail.gmail.com>
	<1321015124.79742.YahooMailNeo@web112120.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1321017779.25775.YahooMailNeo@web112114.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

Bill K wrote: 
> 'Where is everybody?'
?
I wrote:
?
> Hiding from predators.  Even rabbits are
> scarce when predators have free reign. 
How many malicious programmers with
AI and WoMD does it take to clear
a galaxy?
?
A:? Perhaps as few as one.
?
Dennis


________________________________
From: Dennis May <dennislmay at yahoo.com>
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 6:38 AM
Subject: Re: [ExI] Why Pioneers Breed Like Rabbits


Bill K wrote:
?
'Where is everybody?'

Hiding from predators.? Even rabbits are
scarce when predators have free reign.
?
Dennis


________________________________
From: BillK <pharos at gmail.com>
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 6:27 AM
Subject: Re: [ExI] Why Pioneers Breed Like Rabbits

On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 12:05 PM, Eugen Leitl wrote:
<snip>
> Yes, that's your opinion, we know. The universe disagrees.
>
>

Ah, but the universe doesn't disagree. If any advanced civ ever did
have expansionary ambitions the age of our galaxy means that it would
already be swamped by that species - even at sub-light expansion
speeds.

'Where is everybody?'


BillK
_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat



_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Fri Nov 11 14:18:59 2011
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 15:18:59 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Capitalism, anti capitalism, emotional arousal
In-Reply-To: <CAPy8RwbDoy8CyKCy_yXArCX339oRx+RoKvAdXmJJVFjwriWFAQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BF7498ED-47C3-4434-B841-95AF22F61F8F@alumni.Virginia.edu>
	<CAPy8RwbDoy8CyKCy_yXArCX339oRx+RoKvAdXmJJVFjwriWFAQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a5yRSvZEvG_iq17k0b7yXwpehTXiBscnns_0WArv-cBag@mail.gmail.com>

On 10 November 2011 19:55, Kelly Anderson > So what do you see as the
inevitable final system Henry?

"Inevitable" and "Final"?! What distinctly non-transhumanist adjectives... :-)

What is the inevitable final product of biological evolution? Of
cultural evolution? Of politics? Of art? Of philosophy? Of physics?

I would leave such myths to judeo-christianism and its secular avatars
such as classical Marxism...

-- 
Stefano Vaj


From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Fri Nov 11 14:28:50 2011
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 15:28:50 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Capitalism, anti capitalism, emotional arousal
In-Reply-To: <CAPy8RwZUV+__qzEKvdK518Fd+WMfF3HamfmacK9cKH+WVo18bQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BF7498ED-47C3-4434-B841-95AF22F61F8F@alumni.Virginia.edu>
	<CAPoR7a5YXDGmfYzZS1ERLxqw8v26iqcdSoByU6d+cZhEpQoJHg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPy8RwZUV+__qzEKvdK518Fd+WMfF3HamfmacK9cKH+WVo18bQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a59MG=Wf7igG=ujw1a1w89fNscR8WN_TztoxGs_BxM2Hw@mail.gmail.com>

On 10 November 2011 20:41, Kelly Anderson <kellycoinguy at gmail.com> wrote:
> So yes, Roark would not work for a bank, but he might run one. The
> mindless minions could turn the cranks.

I beg to differ, and strange thing indeed that I find myself defending Ms
Rand here... :-)

In *The Fountainhead* we do have a characterGail Wynand, who "runs a bank",
in the sense that he is rich and powerful, but only as long as he does not
try to exert his power in any direction other than he is expected to, and
the novel ends with his final demise.

On the contrary, Roark could easily win by playing by the rules, and yet he
chooses to work as a labourer rather than accepting them.

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Fri Nov 11 14:31:27 2011
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 15:31:27 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Capitalism, anti capitalism, emotional arousal
In-Reply-To: <20111110164204.a0lp2q6c5ws40wc8@webmail.natasha.cc>
References: <BF7498ED-47C3-4434-B841-95AF22F61F8F@alumni.Virginia.edu>
	<CAPoR7a5YXDGmfYzZS1ERLxqw8v26iqcdSoByU6d+cZhEpQoJHg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPy8RwZUV+__qzEKvdK518Fd+WMfF3HamfmacK9cKH+WVo18bQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111110150839.yntsygmgc744cws4@webmail.natasha.cc>
	<CAPy8RwZfyZPRvwoksCy7JcSTPTDDjmb-FewtUM0_ooNsVsM9Aw@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111110164204.a0lp2q6c5ws40wc8@webmail.natasha.cc>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a5jCVXjZgcuiPdDRABX0U=OmhPP8g10atUwZeEav2_1rQ@mail.gmail.com>

2011/11/10 <natasha at natasha.cc>

> My ideological position is as a designer.  I think about socio-economics
> and biopolitics as a design problem. My political leaning: "locate the
> problem, find the most effective way to resolve it, and get going."  This
> has to be done with an unbiased, logical methodology for seeing what is
> most workable, doable with the most amount of thought/knowledge and the
> least amount of waste.  It is a formula to resolve rather than to label.
>

This is *exactly* my own view.

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Fri Nov 11 14:42:07 2011
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 15:42:07 +0100
Subject: [ExI] China model vs. US model
In-Reply-To: <CAOFRd6gYcvHHVq=rsPHKFNMX_C1fQTj1ME+EoD4E5q+6RnKMLA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOFRd6gYcvHHVq=rsPHKFNMX_C1fQTj1ME+EoD4E5q+6RnKMLA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a7EVdbc2G-LzmRv17RCvyAP_xdNi2nx9Qe+mTzxaodq3Q@mail.gmail.com>

On 11 November 2011 04:38, Joseph Bloch <seculartranshumanist at gmail.com>wrote:

> The focus on the article is the relative strengths of weaknesses of
> China's political dictatorship vs. the US's political pluralism, but
> the common thread seems to be the fact that both seem to be sharing a
> common economic system.
>

Really? I think that besides a somewhat similar surface and legal context
and language, differences are dramatically underestimated.

And I am not just referring to China here, but even Japan or Korea. Go and
try to operate a company there as you would in the States, and you would
quickly realise what I mean.

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From sparge at gmail.com  Fri Nov 11 13:46:20 2011
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 08:46:20 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Humanity+ Talk REVOLUTION NOW! all-thing.org
In-Reply-To: <CAAoBNdXPqGL=yzbbghac6Y7BHSosSDezP3S3TOGVkq=qrY5CyA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAoBNdX9dh9BfN55sT7b+=4vqvW_MDE85ctVBrSi-yuJ+gW=kg@mail.gmail.com>
	<4EBB0751.5080900@mac.com>
	<CAAoBNdX8ZCO85+fs5UgwJ1Ej2C_5t7ery5CtVH1fbPW9Lz0RLw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAAoBNdXPqGL=yzbbghac6Y7BHSosSDezP3S3TOGVkq=qrY5CyA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2fME4QSvhudTdtwkgtp5sFSZzqVh3cGTsgR9x5WV-v1og@mail.gmail.com>

2011/11/10 Amon Zero <amon at doctrinezero.com>

> Anti-Capitalism is, in a nutshell "Capitalism is bad"
>
> Libertarianism is, if I'm not wrong: "The current system is bad, but the
> current system != Capitalism"
>
> Is this accurate?
>

That's a reasonable statement of a libertarian response to anticapitalism,
I think. But libertarianism is much more than antianticapitalism.

-Dave
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From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Fri Nov 11 15:38:52 2011
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 08:38:52 -0700
Subject: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 98, Issue 14
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1321012801.5574.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.1.1321012801.5574.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB6NRF4JWMWdq_1UVif71tmA1Xm7HuD3LcH0XU98C0RrLg@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 5:00 AM,   BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:

> I like this paper. It explains how human (and all life) expands into
> unpopulated areas.
>
> But it stops at space.

Right now the only thing stopping humans from going into space is the
low state of technology.

Humans were stopped by water for ten of thousands of years from
spreading into the Americas.

As some of you know, I have been working on beamed energy propulsion
for a number of years.  A recent development is finding a way to get
into space starting with an airdrop that takes a mass ratio 2 and
ground based 20 GW of beamed energy to support a half million ton per
year SBSP construction project.  It's tricky because of the limited
time (~220 s) the vehicle is in view of the ground station.  The
effective exhaust velocity is almost 20 km/s.

But in the slightly longer run, the beamed energy source will itself
be in space.  Because of the longer acceleration time you get from a
space source, the power can be reduced to 5 GW or less, or the flight
rate increased.

In any case, there seems to be a physically realistic method to reduce
the cost of getting into space by 1000.  That's only one order of
magnitude from Freeman Dyson's estimate that the cost was 10,000 times
too high.

snip

> But advanced civilisation is the opposite of breeding like rabbits.
> Evolutionary expansion no longer applies. They *choose* their
> environment and build it to suit themselves. They *choose* how many
> progeny they want to create and for what purpose. If they have
> thousand-year lifespans they will probably create very few offspring.

I suspect they will live practically forever and have *no* offspring at all.

Along that line, it seems to me humans could be extinct by the
definition of "a breeding population" before the end of this century.
That probably closes off space for good.  Speed of light delays might
limit people to the planet if they can't stand to be more than so many
nanoseconds from the center of things.  People are already spending
hundreds of millions of dollars to chop off a few ms from the New York
to London fiber path.

> The idea of creating millions of entities and firing them off to
> colonise the universe is an insane waste of resources originating in
> primitive human evolutionary drives.

Unless humans are alone in our light cone, something like this happens
universally, i.e., we see no expanding civilizations out there.

Keith


From gsantostasi at gmail.com  Fri Nov 11 18:33:58 2011
From: gsantostasi at gmail.com (Giovanni Santostasi)
Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 12:33:58 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Capitalism, anti capitalism, emotional arousal
In-Reply-To: <CAPoR7a5jCVXjZgcuiPdDRABX0U=OmhPP8g10atUwZeEav2_1rQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BF7498ED-47C3-4434-B841-95AF22F61F8F@alumni.Virginia.edu>
	<CAPoR7a5YXDGmfYzZS1ERLxqw8v26iqcdSoByU6d+cZhEpQoJHg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPy8RwZUV+__qzEKvdK518Fd+WMfF3HamfmacK9cKH+WVo18bQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111110150839.yntsygmgc744cws4@webmail.natasha.cc>
	<CAPy8RwZfyZPRvwoksCy7JcSTPTDDjmb-FewtUM0_ooNsVsM9Aw@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111110164204.a0lp2q6c5ws40wc8@webmail.natasha.cc>
	<CAPoR7a5jCVXjZgcuiPdDRABX0U=OmhPP8g10atUwZeEav2_1rQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL+RtPe9mHgJE1MWH2v8-fdFs-u2ZQqD=bVPhD80B06MhKYAPQ@mail.gmail.com>

If you listen carefully the video "New Order-Wake up call" (that it is too
much leaning towards conspiracy theorism to be taken seriously in
its entirety) in it there is a gem:
"these people have so much money that they don't care about money anymore,
it is all about power".
That is so true. This is why any talk about unfettered, enlightened
capitalism is non sense.
It is not about how to achieve wealth or increase the standards of living
of as many people as possible.
Once some people have reached a level of wealth that is so much higher than
everybody else the end game is gaining and playing with power.
This why spreading wealth is not possible in any form of capitalism because
its end game is for few people to gain unlimited power through hording
resources in the fewest hand possible.
Giovanni



2011/11/11 Stefano Vaj <stefano.vaj at gmail.com>

> 2011/11/10 <natasha at natasha.cc>
>
> My ideological position is as a designer.  I think about socio-economics
>> and biopolitics as a design problem. My political leaning: "locate the
>> problem, find the most effective way to resolve it, and get going."  This
>> has to be done with an unbiased, logical methodology for seeing what is
>> most workable, doable with the most amount of thought/knowledge and the
>> least amount of waste.  It is a formula to resolve rather than to label.
>>
>
> This is *exactly* my own view.
>
> --
> Stefano Vaj
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From spike66 at att.net  Fri Nov 11 18:53:31 2011
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 10:53:31 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Capitalism, anti capitalism, emotional arousal
In-Reply-To: <CAL+RtPe9mHgJE1MWH2v8-fdFs-u2ZQqD=bVPhD80B06MhKYAPQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BF7498ED-47C3-4434-B841-95AF22F61F8F@alumni.Virginia.edu>	<CAPoR7a5YXDGmfYzZS1ERLxqw8v26iqcdSoByU6d+cZhEpQoJHg@mail.gmail.com>	<CAPy8RwZUV+__qzEKvdK518Fd+WMfF3HamfmacK9cKH+WVo18bQ@mail.gmail.com>	<20111110150839.yntsygmgc744cws4@webmail.natasha.cc>	<CAPy8RwZfyZPRvwoksCy7JcSTPTDDjmb-FewtUM0_ooNsVsM9Aw@mail.gmail.com>	<20111110164204.a0lp2q6c5ws40wc8@webmail.natasha.cc>	<CAPoR7a5jCVXjZgcuiPdDRABX0U=OmhPP8g10atUwZeEav2_1rQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAL+RtPe9mHgJE1MWH2v8-fdFs-u2ZQqD=bVPhD80B06MhKYAPQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000f01cca0a3$350c8c70$9f25a550$@att.net>

 

 

From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Giovanni
Santostasi
Subject: Re: [ExI] Capitalism, anti capitalism, emotional arousal

 

.

>."these people have so much money that they don't care about money anymore,
it is all about power".

.

>.This why spreading wealth is not possible in any form of capitalism
because its end game is for few people to gain unlimited power through
hording resources in the fewest hand possible.

Giovanni

 

 

 

This argument leads to a paradox as soon as one considers the alternatives.
Capitalism leads to concentration of wealth which leads to concentration of
political power in the hands of those with wealth.  But the alternatives
lead to concentration of political power, used to redistribute other
people's wealth, which leads to further concentration of wealth and power in
the hands of those who redistribute other people's wealth.  

 

In one system, money is power.  In the other, power is money.  

 

Different openings, same endgame.

 

spike

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From ablainey at aol.com  Fri Nov 11 19:12:52 2011
From: ablainey at aol.com (ablainey at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 14:12:52 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [ExI]  New social network?
Message-ID: <8CE6EBD0B5D9091-B24-1839E@webmail-m002.sysops.aol.com>




 <<<<<DeLurk>>>>
Can't remember my last post?? Anyway...

For those that are interested and haven't heard there is a new social network in town called Anybeat. It's from a former exec of myspace, Veoh and a few other well known's. That's Dmitry Shapiro for those interested. The site is as anonymous as you want to make it, and none of the usual attack of the Ad's and ten million game add on's. 
Its like going back in time to the old days of simple chatting and connecting with strangers, before the corporate's started to commercialise everything.
Its very bare bones and has potential to be something quite big. I'm not sure what the final concept goal is. To be honest I don't really care, It's just nice to be somewhere other than FB!
This is a ground floor invite, so get in there quick while its fun and before the masses trample the place. Maybe try to shape its future?

It may be a fad, but give it a whirl and see what you think. It has promise. 

http://www.anybeat.com/i/4ebaba4fbb45b640b3000db8

Must point out Im not affiliated and only found the place by a long boring drawn out story that you really don't care about LOL.
I've been on there for a few days getting a feel of the place. Simple lay out, Surprisingly addictive, but not in the banal attention grabbing way, More due to the interesting people on there. (The very few people that is!!)

Anyway, not just shameless advertising of a new site. I wonder what the take is on the future of social networking? I have LinkedIn, FB and the usual suspects. I dont think any of them offers what I want or really need. To be honest Im not sure what I really need if anything at all?
Will the trend be to step back to simpler times? Or continue towards sites that want to control ever aspect of our lives?

have fun
AL

 
 
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From sparge at gmail.com  Fri Nov 11 19:30:32 2011
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 14:30:32 -0500
Subject: [ExI] New social network?
In-Reply-To: <8CE6EBD0B5D9091-B24-1839E@webmail-m002.sysops.aol.com>
References: <8CE6EBD0B5D9091-B24-1839E@webmail-m002.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2fRJ8YDMOns9=9nMYv0bXsmGg9ocQxWJF3HVxVHqL5=1A@mail.gmail.com>

2011/11/11 <ablainey at aol.com>

> Anyway, not just shameless advertising of a new site. I wonder what the
> take is on the future of social networking?


I don't think it's going away. :-) I bailed on Facebook years ago because I
found the interface and privacy issues too frustrating. These days I'm
doing Google+ and Twitter, though I use the latter more a source of
information than a channel for publishing my own info.

The problem with any any new social networking mechanism is reaching a
critical mass. You can set up the niftiest site in the world, but
attracting enough people away from Facebook to make it viable is tough.
Google+ is better than Facebook, IMO, but even with Google behind it, it's
not guaranteed to catch on sufficiently.


> I have LinkedIn, FB and the usual suspects. I dont think any of them
> offers what I want or really need. To be honest Im not sure what I really
> need if anything at all?
>

Nobody really *needs* social networking, but it does offer value to its
users.


>  Will the trend be to step back to simpler times? Or continue towards
> sites that want to control ever aspect of our lives?


I think that's a false dichotomy, but I don't see a big future for "simpler
times".

-Dave
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From spike66 at att.net  Fri Nov 11 19:22:45 2011
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 11:22:45 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Capitalism, anti capitalism, emotional arousal
References: <BF7498ED-47C3-4434-B841-95AF22F61F8F@alumni.Virginia.edu>	<CAPoR7a5YXDGmfYzZS1ERLxqw8v26iqcdSoByU6d+cZhEpQoJHg@mail.gmail.com>	<CAPy8RwZUV+__qzEKvdK518Fd+WMfF3HamfmacK9cKH+WVo18bQ@mail.gmail.com>	<20111110150839.yntsygmgc744cws4@webmail.natasha.cc>	<CAPy8RwZfyZPRvwoksCy7JcSTPTDDjmb-FewtUM0_ooNsVsM9Aw@mail.gmail.com>	<20111110164204.a0lp2q6c5ws40wc8@webmail.natasha.cc>	<CAPoR7a5jCVXjZgcuiPdDRABX0U=OmhPP8g10atUwZeEav2_1rQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAL+RtPe9mHgJE1MWH2v8-fdFs-u2ZQqD=bVPhD80B06MhKYAPQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <001a01cca0a7$4b37ea40$e1a7bec0$@att.net>

 

 

From: spike [mailto:spike66 at att.net] 
Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 10:54 AM
To: 'ExI chat list'
Subject: RE: [ExI] Capitalism, anti capitalism, emotional arousal

 

 

 

From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Giovanni
Santostasi
Subject: Re: [ExI] Capitalism, anti capitalism, emotional arousal

 

.

>>."these people have so much money that they don't care about money
anymore, it is all about power".

.

>>.This why spreading wealth is not possible in any form of capitalism
because its end game is for few people to gain unlimited power through
hording resources in the fewest hand possible.

Giovanni

 

 

 

>.This argument leads to a paradox as soon as one considers the
alternatives.  Different openings, same endgame.  spike

 

To expand a bit further, consider in any such discussion how the word
"wealth" is used.  What word precedes that word?  Is it "the" as in 'spread
THE wealth around.'  

 

The word preceding 'wealth' often tells a lot about the speaker's basic
assumptions.  What is "THE wealth"?  Note that people with certain
assumptions will never say "other people's wealth" nor will the word "my"
precede the word wealth.  Never will you hear a political candidate utter
the comment "everyone is better off when we spread MY wealth around."  Have
you?  "The" never means "my."   They are never quite sure that other
people's wealth really belongs to other people.

 

As a thought experiment, whenever you hear or read the word wealth or money,
if the word before it is "the" replace it with "other people's" and vice
versa.  What does it do to the meaning of the comment?  In many cases, this
modification clarifies the meaning of the comment.

 

spike

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From ablainey at aol.com  Fri Nov 11 19:40:00 2011
From: ablainey at aol.com (ablainey at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 14:40:00 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [ExI] one molecule car
In-Reply-To: <016e01cc9f63$18101e70$48305b50$@att.net>
References: <016e01cc9f63$18101e70$48305b50$@att.net>
Message-ID: <8CE6EC0D58F13A5-B24-18996@webmail-m002.sysops.aol.com>


 Indeed Drex did. Its about time.

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: spike <spike66 at att.net>
To: 'ExI chat list' <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 5:01
Subject: [ExI] one molecule car



Hey cool, the K.Eric told us a long time ago that we would have stuff like this:
 
http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/104347-one-molecule-nanocar-takes-a-test-drive
 
 

 
_______________________________________________

extropy-chat mailing list

extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org

http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


 
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From ablainey at aol.com  Fri Nov 11 19:47:23 2011
From: ablainey at aol.com (ablainey at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 14:47:23 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [ExI] New social network?
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2fRJ8YDMOns9=9nMYv0bXsmGg9ocQxWJF3HVxVHqL5=1A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8CE6EBD0B5D9091-B24-1839E@webmail-m002.sysops.aol.com>
	<CAM5aL2fRJ8YDMOns9=9nMYv0bXsmGg9ocQxWJF3HVxVHqL5=1A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8CE6EC1DD322BC6-B24-18AF8@webmail-m002.sysops.aol.com>

It must be my reminiscing mood. I get more of those everyday. 

 

 




>>>I think that's a false dichotomy, but I don't see a big future for "simpler times".


-Dave
 
_______________________________________________

extropy-chat mailing list

extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org

http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


 
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From kellycoinguy at gmail.com  Fri Nov 11 20:01:36 2011
From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 13:01:36 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Capitalism, anti capitalism, emotional arousal
In-Reply-To: <20111110164204.a0lp2q6c5ws40wc8@webmail.natasha.cc>
References: <BF7498ED-47C3-4434-B841-95AF22F61F8F@alumni.Virginia.edu>
	<CAPoR7a5YXDGmfYzZS1ERLxqw8v26iqcdSoByU6d+cZhEpQoJHg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPy8RwZUV+__qzEKvdK518Fd+WMfF3HamfmacK9cKH+WVo18bQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111110150839.yntsygmgc744cws4@webmail.natasha.cc>
	<CAPy8RwZfyZPRvwoksCy7JcSTPTDDjmb-FewtUM0_ooNsVsM9Aw@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111110164204.a0lp2q6c5ws40wc8@webmail.natasha.cc>
Message-ID: <CAPy8RwaXQVK2sorUeG1fzTv3ofuYUtnMh6HmZERm5OUFbvo+Ww@mail.gmail.com>

2011/11/10  <natasha at natasha.cc>:
>> I don't have your location on the political spectrum Natasha.. is that
>> because you are eclectic or eccentric in your political beliefs, or
>> just that you haven't said?
>
> I was a Liberal, Democrat, then an elected Green Councilperson for?LA
> County. ... ?Then I started thinking.? ... Now "I am neither right nor left"
> (Esfandiary).

Not familiar with Esfandiary...

> I tend to be more of an insightful Dennis Miller type than a
> biased Laura Ingraham type. I am not interested in blame and hate against
> those who own companies and provide jobs to others.

It is silly to blame the problems in society on those who provide the
money that lubricates the entire system. As an entrepreneur myself, I
do understand that there is a degree of luck in the system, and that
Bill Gates isn't ALL THAT more competent than I, but also benefited
from being in the right place at the right time, working on the right
stuff.

> Nor do I think it
> is?okay for shareholders to give ridiculous bonuses to themselves and also
> take money from the government.

I'm with you on that one.

> And I do not respect presidents to vacation
> in Martha?s Vineyard or Tim Buck Two, when people are jobless.

Here I'm not so sure... being President has to be pretty stressful,
and they never stop working, even while on vacation. I don't begrudge
the President a little R&R... It's important to his functioning well.
I would respect a president that did more of his R&R at Camp David...
I think Carter did that, and he did some things that I respect, but
was mostly an idiot.

> And I
> certainly do not think that people should be receiving unemployment payout
> for an extended period of time.

Yes, 99 weeks is ridiculous. The belief that it is the government's
job to provide jobs is even more ridiculous.

> But I do think that one?thrives when one
> cares for?others.

Altruism for it's own sake has evil components, but if you run a
company that provides a needed good or service, and you are customer
oriented, then that will certainly lead towards prosperity.

> Narratives (TV, film, books or whatever) that make money
> off of dumbing down society are a terrible crime against humanity.

Do the masses need an opiate??? Since religion no longer fills that
void for many people, do we need the NFL, NBA and comedy shows and
other television (as well as video games, the Internet LOL cats, etc.)
to provide the drug for the masses? Does this prevent mass revolt in
the street? I often think that if we cancelled all major sports for a
year, and only had reruns on TV, we would have bonfires in the
streets...

> My ideological position is as a designer. ?I think about socio-economics and
> biopolitics as a design problem. My political leaning:?"locate the problem,
> find the most effective way to resolve it, and get going."? This has to be
> done?with an?unbiased, logical methodology for seeing what is most workable,
> doable with the most amount of thought/knowledge and the least amount of
> waste.? It is a formula to resolve rather than to label.

That's all well and good. I think we all view ourselves in this
manner. It's just that most people tend to settle into a mode that
they think accomplishes this in the most effective manner. Perhaps if
you gave an example of a real world problem with it's real world
solution that you admire, that would give some insight...

I tend to be most enthusiastic about technical solutions to real
problems, and view the government as mostly getting in the way of more
of that sort of thing happening. Thus I come down mostly on the
libertarian way of thinking, though I get really confused when people
state that libertarianism is left of the current left... I don't get
that one at all.

So as an example of something I'm enthusiastic about was the thing we
noted a few weeks back about putting day light to use in slums and
favelas... or the TED talk on replacing indoor use of charcoal with
another fuel, or the Gates foundation work on zapping mosquitos with
lasers. Those are REAL solutions. Public health care is just another
government boondoggle and power grab.

-Kelly



From gsantostasi at gmail.com  Fri Nov 11 20:19:40 2011
From: gsantostasi at gmail.com (Giovanni Santostasi)
Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 14:19:40 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Capitalism, anti capitalism, emotional arousal
In-Reply-To: <000f01cca0a3$350c8c70$9f25a550$@att.net>
References: <BF7498ED-47C3-4434-B841-95AF22F61F8F@alumni.Virginia.edu>
	<CAPoR7a5YXDGmfYzZS1ERLxqw8v26iqcdSoByU6d+cZhEpQoJHg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPy8RwZUV+__qzEKvdK518Fd+WMfF3HamfmacK9cKH+WVo18bQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111110150839.yntsygmgc744cws4@webmail.natasha.cc>
	<CAPy8RwZfyZPRvwoksCy7JcSTPTDDjmb-FewtUM0_ooNsVsM9Aw@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111110164204.a0lp2q6c5ws40wc8@webmail.natasha.cc>
	<CAPoR7a5jCVXjZgcuiPdDRABX0U=OmhPP8g10atUwZeEav2_1rQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAL+RtPe9mHgJE1MWH2v8-fdFs-u2ZQqD=bVPhD80B06MhKYAPQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<000f01cca0a3$350c8c70$9f25a550$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAL+RtPfFd1gUN4BXMZoc=qZ7hP6UyUadXdVS8Y8Cz0mEEwxkqw@mail.gmail.com>

Then money is the problem.
Giovanni

2011/11/11 spike <spike66 at att.net>

> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:
> extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] *On Behalf Of *Giovanni Santostasi
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Capitalism, anti capitalism, emotional arousal****
>
> ** **
>
> ?****
>
> >?"these people have so much money that they don't care about money
> anymore, it is all about power".****
>
> ?****
>
> >?This why spreading wealth is not possible in any form of capitalism
> because its end game is for few people to gain unlimited power through
> hording resources in the fewest hand possible.****
>
> Giovanni****
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> This argument leads to a paradox as soon as one considers the
> alternatives.  Capitalism leads to concentration of wealth which leads to
> concentration of political power in the hands of those with wealth.  But
> the alternatives lead to concentration of political power, used to
> redistribute other people?s wealth, which leads to further concentration of
> wealth and power in the hands of those who redistribute other people?s
> wealth.  ****
>
> ** **
>
> In one system, money is power.  In the other, power is money.  ****
>
> ** **
>
> Different openings, same endgame.****
>
> ** **
>
> spike****
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From sparge at gmail.com  Fri Nov 11 20:21:18 2011
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 15:21:18 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Capitalism, anti capitalism, emotional arousal
In-Reply-To: <CAL+RtPfFd1gUN4BXMZoc=qZ7hP6UyUadXdVS8Y8Cz0mEEwxkqw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BF7498ED-47C3-4434-B841-95AF22F61F8F@alumni.Virginia.edu>
	<CAPoR7a5YXDGmfYzZS1ERLxqw8v26iqcdSoByU6d+cZhEpQoJHg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPy8RwZUV+__qzEKvdK518Fd+WMfF3HamfmacK9cKH+WVo18bQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111110150839.yntsygmgc744cws4@webmail.natasha.cc>
	<CAPy8RwZfyZPRvwoksCy7JcSTPTDDjmb-FewtUM0_ooNsVsM9Aw@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111110164204.a0lp2q6c5ws40wc8@webmail.natasha.cc>
	<CAPoR7a5jCVXjZgcuiPdDRABX0U=OmhPP8g10atUwZeEav2_1rQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAL+RtPe9mHgJE1MWH2v8-fdFs-u2ZQqD=bVPhD80B06MhKYAPQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<000f01cca0a3$350c8c70$9f25a550$@att.net>
	<CAL+RtPfFd1gUN4BXMZoc=qZ7hP6UyUadXdVS8Y8Cz0mEEwxkqw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2eWuEM3=KZ7QkCpe29apJs8-KJ62itwcz7VO77LdrzgsQ@mail.gmail.com>

2011/11/11 Giovanni Santostasi <gsantostasi at gmail.com>

> Then money is the problem.


I think human nature is the problem.

-Dave
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From kellycoinguy at gmail.com  Fri Nov 11 20:12:28 2011
From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 13:12:28 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Capitalism, anti capitalism, emotional arousal
In-Reply-To: <CAPoR7a59MG=Wf7igG=ujw1a1w89fNscR8WN_TztoxGs_BxM2Hw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BF7498ED-47C3-4434-B841-95AF22F61F8F@alumni.Virginia.edu>
	<CAPoR7a5YXDGmfYzZS1ERLxqw8v26iqcdSoByU6d+cZhEpQoJHg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPy8RwZUV+__qzEKvdK518Fd+WMfF3HamfmacK9cKH+WVo18bQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPoR7a59MG=Wf7igG=ujw1a1w89fNscR8WN_TztoxGs_BxM2Hw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPy8RwYyOv7Mhv_8EXpaEq04rPFbgAqGP4SJx1hyMFtSr13WUw@mail.gmail.com>

2011/11/11 Stefano Vaj <stefano.vaj at gmail.com>:
> On 10 November 2011 20:41, Kelly Anderson <kellycoinguy at gmail.com> wrote:
>> So yes, Roark would not work for a bank, but he might run one. The
>> mindless minions could turn the cranks.
>
> I beg to differ, and strange thing indeed that I find myself defending Ms
> Rand here... :-)

Yes, that is humorous.

> In The Fountainhead we do have a character Gail Wynand, who "runs a bank", in
> the sense that he is rich and powerful, but only as long as he does not try
> to exert his power in any direction other than he is expected to, and the
> novel ends with his final demise.

Gail Wynand is a powerful flawed character, to be sure. Roark would
never play to the masses the way he did.

> On the contrary, Roark could easily win by playing by the rules, and yet he
> chooses to work as a labourer rather than accepting them.

Good point Stefano... I remember Gail Wynand well... great character.

Midas Mulligan from Atlas Shrugged is more of the sort of banker that
Roark could be. Midas didn't play by the rules, and yet he was a
banker that was largely responsible for the founding and funding of
the retreat in the Colorado Rockies... So you can't say that Rand was
dead set against banking, as long as it was backed by gold. How that
would work in today's world is beyond me... to be honest.

-Kelly


From kellycoinguy at gmail.com  Fri Nov 11 20:35:42 2011
From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 13:35:42 -0700
Subject: [ExI] New social network?
In-Reply-To: <8CE6EBD0B5D9091-B24-1839E@webmail-m002.sysops.aol.com>
References: <8CE6EBD0B5D9091-B24-1839E@webmail-m002.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <CAPy8RwY_pur1Aur749cEHy4z6ESXJmRThfREfY5aLy1Xk6WAVA@mail.gmail.com>

2011/11/11  <ablainey at aol.com>:
> <<<<<DeLurk>>>>
> Can't remember my last post??

Not that I can recall...

> Anyway, not just shameless advertising of a new site. I wonder what the take
> is on the future of social networking? I have LinkedIn, FB and the usual
> suspects. I dont think any of them offers what I want or really need. To be
> honest Im not sure what I really need if anything at all?
> Will the trend be to step back to simpler times? Or continue towards sites
> that want to control ever aspect of our lives?

My best experiences in social networking have been on the numerous
email lists I've participated in over the years, including now this
one. I don't see the point of FaceBook, though I've tried a bit. I
don't get MySpace either. It's all so silly to me to have a
communication pattern that doesn't come to you, where you have to go
to it. I like email because it's there when I want it. I suppose if
you use FB all day every day, it's a bit like an advanced email
program, with a directory. But finding groups of like minded people on
mailing lists seems like a really good way to go. At least it's worked
for me.

I do use linked in, but only as a way to keep track of the current
email addresses of my friends. I hate loosing track of people that
change their email address, and linked in provides a solution to that
limited problem that I can appreciate.

But don't ask me, I thought HTTP was a dumb idea when I first saw it.
I changed my mind about that eventually... but still haven't changed
my mind about FB.

-Kelly


From kellycoinguy at gmail.com  Fri Nov 11 20:55:04 2011
From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 13:55:04 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Money and Human Nature (was Re:  Capitalism, anti capitalism,
 emotional arousal)
Message-ID: <CAPy8RwYcPYP-DGuqTkFmHpfCPQFqE==warBZw+TS3wjXUY1c9Q@mail.gmail.com>

2011/11/11 Dave Sill <sparge at gmail.com>:
> 2011/11/11 Giovanni Santostasi <gsantostasi at gmail.com>
>>
>> Then money is the problem.

Money is merely a tool that frees us from the burden of finding barter
partners. If you want to go all the way to a system where nobody owns
anything, we can discuss that. Some island systems in Tonga and Tahiti
as well as some hunter gatherer cultures allegedly got past ownership,
and simply shared all they had.

This is the partial goal of some in the open source movement, as well
as wikileaks and other parts of cyber space. You can't really
effectively get rid of money without also getting rid of the concept
of ownership.

Now, if you get rid of the concept of ownership... you have to go all
the way, and this eventually means that you cannot claim ownership of
the sub-strait that you use to compute. That is currently your brain.
Some day, it may be a different medium, and you can't own that either.

A true and full form of collectivism, where we become the Borg, where
we lose all individuality and ego is the only alternative to money
that really makes any sense.

I get the idea that most of the people on this list are fierce
individualists, and want to remain as individuals. So I don't think,
in the end, many of the list members will go along with "let's get rid
of money"...

On the other hand, you could probably find a lot of people who would
go along with let's get rid of the federal reserve, or let's get rid
of fractionalized banking... or other aspects of our financial
systems. But that is not money. Money is a much more primitive beast
than that.

> I think human nature is the problem.

Here Dave is clearly onto something... :-)  But how much of our human
nature do we really want to give up? Are we really better off without
anger? Are we better off without jealousy? Could we throw out
religion? Get rid of the concept that other people somehow "belong" to
us (as in a "committed" relationship)? What do we want to lose in
order to gain the most. And what is most important to gain?

Just adding more intelligence without any other adjustments seems to
be a rather limiting choice... likely to lead to a really bad outcome.
But is altruism the answer? Is compassion the answer? More empathy?
Love?

These are not easy questions, and I don't expect glib answers that
will solve the real problems this kind of thing brings up.

-Kelly


From kellycoinguy at gmail.com  Fri Nov 11 21:03:50 2011
From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 14:03:50 -0700
Subject: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 98, Issue 14
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB6NRF4JWMWdq_1UVif71tmA1Xm7HuD3LcH0XU98C0RrLg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1321012801.5574.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<CAPiwVB6NRF4JWMWdq_1UVif71tmA1Xm7HuD3LcH0XU98C0RrLg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPy8RwabZyq_cPOAGcsEzNKsgxt03KL+OCs8KoZtNFL4nbQa8Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 8:38 AM, Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> wrote:
> As some of you know, I have been working on beamed energy propulsion
> for a number of years. ?A recent development is finding a way to get
> into space starting with an airdrop that takes a mass ratio 2 and
> ground based 20 GW of beamed energy to support a half million ton per
> year SBSP construction project. ?It's tricky because of the limited
> time (~220 s) the vehicle is in view of the ground station. ?The
> effective exhaust velocity is almost 20 km/s.

It's exciting stuff. I'm glad you're working on it!!!

> But in the slightly longer run, the beamed energy source will itself
> be in space. ?Because of the longer acceleration time you get from a
> space source, the power can be reduced to 5 GW or less, or the flight
> rate increased.

Cool, I hadn't thought the system through to that point, and that's
really interesting...

> I suspect they will live practically forever and have *no* offspring at all.

In Heinlein's book "Time Enough for Love", that I'm currently reading,
he explains the demise of the original Earth as coming from the fact
that once it is possible to escape Earth, the very best and brightest
among us will be the ones to escape first. Leaving the great unwashed
masses to fend for themselves. It's a kind of "Atlas Shrugged" view
condensed to just a couple of pages... I suspect if space travel does
take off... and founding other worlds does become possible, that Earth
is somewhat doomed to the caprice of the idiots left behind.

Now Heinlein didn't account particularly well for artificial
intelligence, so his vision may be severely short sighted. But you can
see the result of the best and brightest of Europe leaving for
America, so there is an historical precedent for what he proposes. If
you got FTL travel before you got common artificial intelligence, then
I can see his view of the future, but that doesn't look likely. Still
a good read in terms of what do you do with a many thousand years life
span.

-Kelly



From natasha at natasha.cc  Fri Nov 11 21:05:08 2011
From: natasha at natasha.cc (natasha at natasha.cc)
Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 16:05:08 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Capitalism, anti capitalism, emotional arousal
In-Reply-To: <CAPy8RwaXQVK2sorUeG1fzTv3ofuYUtnMh6HmZERm5OUFbvo+Ww@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BF7498ED-47C3-4434-B841-95AF22F61F8F@alumni.Virginia.edu>
	<CAPoR7a5YXDGmfYzZS1ERLxqw8v26iqcdSoByU6d+cZhEpQoJHg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPy8RwZUV+__qzEKvdK518Fd+WMfF3HamfmacK9cKH+WVo18bQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111110150839.yntsygmgc744cws4@webmail.natasha.cc>
	<CAPy8RwZfyZPRvwoksCy7JcSTPTDDjmb-FewtUM0_ooNsVsM9Aw@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111110164204.a0lp2q6c5ws40wc8@webmail.natasha.cc>
	<CAPy8RwaXQVK2sorUeG1fzTv3ofuYUtnMh6HmZERm5OUFbvo+Ww@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20111111160508.5vzxyxw7kcggowkw@webmail.natasha.cc>



   Quoting Kelly Anderson <kellycoinguy at gmail.com>:

> Not familiar with Esfandiary...

   You might want to read his writings if you are interested in  
?transhuman? concepts.

(snip)
>> I don't begrudge
> the President a little R&R...

   Well, he certainly does take many, many vacations. Executive jobs  
are tough, so is raising a family. That?s understood. This issue is  
that he is not a good leader in my view. Did Giuliani go on to Aspen  
skiing as NYC was?in a rut?? If Obama looked exhausted, skinny, and  
bags under his eyes, I?d gladly help pay for a trip to the Vineyard  
because I would know that he earned it.? Yes, this is judgmental on my  
part, but it is my view and I am sticking to it.

   (snip)

   > Altruism for it's own sake has evil components,

   Why interpret what I said this way? There is a difference between  
altruism and benevolence. I speak of benevolence. Anyway,??... "random  
acts of kindness and senseless acts?beauty of beauty".

   >> Narratives (TV, film, books or whatever) that make money
>> off of dumbing down society are a terrible crime against humanity.
>
> Do the masses need an opiate??? Since religion no longer fills that
> void for many people, do we need the NFL, NBA and comedy shows and
> other television (as well as video games, the Internet LOL cats, etc.)
> to provide the drug for the masses? Does this prevent mass revolt in
> the street? I often think that if we cancelled all major sports for a
> year, and only had reruns on TV, we would have bonfires in the
> streets...

   You are obfuscating?my point. I'm not taking about cancelling TV or  
sports. I am an avid TV watcher. I am referring to specific  
narratives.? I don't need to take the time to explain these do I?? ?  
If you turn on the TV you will see programming that is informative,  
entertaining and exciting.? And you will also see programming that is  
manipulative, argumentative, and appealing to the reptilian brain.?If  
you watch the new H+ film, you will?probably thing?H+ is a horrible  
future.?So, narratives that squelch critical thinking and promote  
stupidity are not the same as programming that excites, uplifts or  
promotes contemplation.

   (snip)

   > That's all well and good. I think we all view ourselves in this
> manner. It's just that most people tend to settle into a mode that
> they think accomplishes this in the most effective manner. Perhaps if
> you gave an example of a real world problem with it's real world
> solution that you admire, that would give some insight...

   The problem is that you do not know me and are making assumptions  
that I am not *real bright*.? I'll just let this one pass.

> So as an example of something I'm enthusiastic about was the thing we
> noted a few weeks back about putting day light to use in slums and
> favelas... or the TED talk on replacing indoor use of charcoal with
> another fuel, or the Gates foundation work on zapping mosquitos with
> lasers. Those are REAL solutions. Public health care is just another
> government boondoggle and power grab.

   Yeh -- These are a design solutions to real problems.

Kelly, your posts are interesting and you mean well, but I think the  
problem in our communication is that you are talking at me and not to  
me.? This is often the case on lists.

   Take care,

   Natasha



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From spike66 at att.net  Fri Nov 11 20:53:18 2011
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 12:53:18 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Capitalism, anti capitalism, emotional arousal
In-Reply-To: <CAL+RtPfFd1gUN4BXMZoc=qZ7hP6UyUadXdVS8Y8Cz0mEEwxkqw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BF7498ED-47C3-4434-B841-95AF22F61F8F@alumni.Virginia.edu>	<CAPoR7a5YXDGmfYzZS1ERLxqw8v26iqcdSoByU6d+cZhEpQoJHg@mail.gmail.com>	<CAPy8RwZUV+__qzEKvdK518Fd+WMfF3HamfmacK9cKH+WVo18bQ@mail.gmail.com>	<20111110150839.yntsygmgc744cws4@webmail.natasha.cc>	<CAPy8RwZfyZPRvwoksCy7JcSTPTDDjmb-FewtUM0_ooNsVsM9Aw@mail.gmail.com>	<20111110164204.a0lp2q6c5ws40wc8@webmail.natasha.cc>	<CAPoR7a5jCVXjZgcuiPdDRABX0U=OmhPP8g10atUwZeEav2_1rQ@mail.gmail.com>	<CAL+RtPe9mHgJE1MWH2v8-fdFs-u2ZQqD=bVPhD80B06MhKYAPQ@mail.gmail.com>	<000f01cca0a3$350c8c70$9f25a550$@att.net>
	<CAL+RtPfFd1gUN4BXMZoc=qZ7hP6UyUadXdVS8Y8Cz0mEEwxkqw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <008301cca0b3$f0d87710$d2896530$@att.net>

 

 

From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Giovanni
Santostasi
Subject: Re: [ExI] Capitalism, anti capitalism, emotional arousal

 

Then money is the problem.

Giovanni

2011/11/11 spike <spike66 at att.net>

 

 Power is the problem.  Money is the solution.

 

spike

 

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From gsantostasi at gmail.com  Fri Nov 11 21:07:08 2011
From: gsantostasi at gmail.com (Giovanni Santostasi)
Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 15:07:08 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Money and Human Nature (was Re: Capitalism,
 anti capitalism, emotional arousal)
In-Reply-To: <CAPy8RwYcPYP-DGuqTkFmHpfCPQFqE==warBZw+TS3wjXUY1c9Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPy8RwYcPYP-DGuqTkFmHpfCPQFqE==warBZw+TS3wjXUY1c9Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL+RtPc3csd9UDriuT=BiO_Nhs6orBSm7ejRbqJo_oU_vqJw5A@mail.gmail.com>

What about Star Trek society? Read this for example

http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2005/06/lessons-from-star-trek/


Giovanni

On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 2:55 PM, Kelly Anderson <kellycoinguy at gmail.com>wrote:

> 2011/11/11 Dave Sill <sparge at gmail.com>:
> > 2011/11/11 Giovanni Santostasi <gsantostasi at gmail.com>
> >>
> >> Then money is the problem.
>
> Money is merely a tool that frees us from the burden of finding barter
> partners. If you want to go all the way to a system where nobody owns
> anything, we can discuss that. Some island systems in Tonga and Tahiti
> as well as some hunter gatherer cultures allegedly got past ownership,
> and simply shared all they had.
>
> This is the partial goal of some in the open source movement, as well
> as wikileaks and other parts of cyber space. You can't really
> effectively get rid of money without also getting rid of the concept
> of ownership.
>
> Now, if you get rid of the concept of ownership... you have to go all
> the way, and this eventually means that you cannot claim ownership of
> the sub-strait that you use to compute. That is currently your brain.
> Some day, it may be a different medium, and you can't own that either.
>
> A true and full form of collectivism, where we become the Borg, where
> we lose all individuality and ego is the only alternative to money
> that really makes any sense.
>
> I get the idea that most of the people on this list are fierce
> individualists, and want to remain as individuals. So I don't think,
> in the end, many of the list members will go along with "let's get rid
> of money"...
>
> On the other hand, you could probably find a lot of people who would
> go along with let's get rid of the federal reserve, or let's get rid
> of fractionalized banking... or other aspects of our financial
> systems. But that is not money. Money is a much more primitive beast
> than that.
>
> > I think human nature is the problem.
>
> Here Dave is clearly onto something... :-)  But how much of our human
> nature do we really want to give up? Are we really better off without
> anger? Are we better off without jealousy? Could we throw out
> religion? Get rid of the concept that other people somehow "belong" to
> us (as in a "committed" relationship)? What do we want to lose in
> order to gain the most. And what is most important to gain?
>
> Just adding more intelligence without any other adjustments seems to
> be a rather limiting choice... likely to lead to a really bad outcome.
> But is altruism the answer? Is compassion the answer? More empathy?
> Love?
>
> These are not easy questions, and I don't expect glib answers that
> will solve the real problems this kind of thing brings up.
>
> -Kelly
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From gsantostasi at gmail.com  Fri Nov 11 21:15:40 2011
From: gsantostasi at gmail.com (Giovanni Santostasi)
Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 15:15:40 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Money and Human Nature (was Re: Capitalism,
 anti capitalism, emotional arousal)
In-Reply-To: <CAL+RtPc3csd9UDriuT=BiO_Nhs6orBSm7ejRbqJo_oU_vqJw5A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPy8RwYcPYP-DGuqTkFmHpfCPQFqE==warBZw+TS3wjXUY1c9Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAL+RtPc3csd9UDriuT=BiO_Nhs6orBSm7ejRbqJo_oU_vqJw5A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL+RtPeRgCxh9AZM6rvqHRPVh12NyKdk3sPJ55cu0ryyhTyCgQ@mail.gmail.com>

>From Pavlina article:

"Technology handles all the gruntwork, which gives characters the freedom
to pursue their purpose without worrying so much about meeting their basic
needs. People work because they want to, not because they have to. The
characters have the freedom to be lazy and do nothing in this world if they
wanted to, but they choose to contribute."



On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 3:07 PM, Giovanni Santostasi
<gsantostasi at gmail.com>wrote:

> What about Star Trek society? Read this for example
>
> http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2005/06/lessons-from-star-trek/
>
>
> Giovanni
>
>
> On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 2:55 PM, Kelly Anderson <kellycoinguy at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> 2011/11/11 Dave Sill <sparge at gmail.com>:
>> > 2011/11/11 Giovanni Santostasi <gsantostasi at gmail.com>
>> >>
>> >> Then money is the problem.
>>
>> Money is merely a tool that frees us from the burden of finding barter
>> partners. If you want to go all the way to a system where nobody owns
>> anything, we can discuss that. Some island systems in Tonga and Tahiti
>> as well as some hunter gatherer cultures allegedly got past ownership,
>> and simply shared all they had.
>>
>> This is the partial goal of some in the open source movement, as well
>> as wikileaks and other parts of cyber space. You can't really
>> effectively get rid of money without also getting rid of the concept
>> of ownership.
>>
>> Now, if you get rid of the concept of ownership... you have to go all
>> the way, and this eventually means that you cannot claim ownership of
>> the sub-strait that you use to compute. That is currently your brain.
>> Some day, it may be a different medium, and you can't own that either.
>>
>> A true and full form of collectivism, where we become the Borg, where
>> we lose all individuality and ego is the only alternative to money
>> that really makes any sense.
>>
>> I get the idea that most of the people on this list are fierce
>> individualists, and want to remain as individuals. So I don't think,
>> in the end, many of the list members will go along with "let's get rid
>> of money"...
>>
>> On the other hand, you could probably find a lot of people who would
>> go along with let's get rid of the federal reserve, or let's get rid
>> of fractionalized banking... or other aspects of our financial
>> systems. But that is not money. Money is a much more primitive beast
>> than that.
>>
>> > I think human nature is the problem.
>>
>> Here Dave is clearly onto something... :-)  But how much of our human
>> nature do we really want to give up? Are we really better off without
>> anger? Are we better off without jealousy? Could we throw out
>> religion? Get rid of the concept that other people somehow "belong" to
>> us (as in a "committed" relationship)? What do we want to lose in
>> order to gain the most. And what is most important to gain?
>>
>> Just adding more intelligence without any other adjustments seems to
>> be a rather limiting choice... likely to lead to a really bad outcome.
>> But is altruism the answer? Is compassion the answer? More empathy?
>> Love?
>>
>> These are not easy questions, and I don't expect glib answers that
>> will solve the real problems this kind of thing brings up.
>>
>> -Kelly
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
>
>
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From gsantostasi at gmail.com  Fri Nov 11 21:17:29 2011
From: gsantostasi at gmail.com (Giovanni Santostasi)
Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 15:17:29 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Money and Human Nature (was Re: Capitalism,
 anti capitalism, emotional arousal)
In-Reply-To: <CAL+RtPeRgCxh9AZM6rvqHRPVh12NyKdk3sPJ55cu0ryyhTyCgQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPy8RwYcPYP-DGuqTkFmHpfCPQFqE==warBZw+TS3wjXUY1c9Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAL+RtPc3csd9UDriuT=BiO_Nhs6orBSm7ejRbqJo_oU_vqJw5A@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAL+RtPeRgCxh9AZM6rvqHRPVh12NyKdk3sPJ55cu0ryyhTyCgQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL+RtPemLdwZ2Q531k3Riq2QuH-ETyvjngu-rOL8T8WNaxg4iQ@mail.gmail.com>

What motivates people:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6XAPnuFjJc

it is not money....
at least to do creative things...

Giovanni Santostasi


On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 3:15 PM, Giovanni Santostasi
<gsantostasi at gmail.com>wrote:

> From Pavlina article:
>
> "Technology handles all the gruntwork, which gives characters the freedom
> to pursue their purpose without worrying so much about meeting their basic
> needs. People work because they want to, not because they have to. The
> characters have the freedom to be lazy and do nothing in this world if they
> wanted to, but they choose to contribute."
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 3:07 PM, Giovanni Santostasi <
> gsantostasi at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> What about Star Trek society? Read this for example
>>
>> http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2005/06/lessons-from-star-trek/
>>
>>
>> Giovanni
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 2:55 PM, Kelly Anderson <kellycoinguy at gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>> 2011/11/11 Dave Sill <sparge at gmail.com>:
>>> > 2011/11/11 Giovanni Santostasi <gsantostasi at gmail.com>
>>> >>
>>> >> Then money is the problem.
>>>
>>> Money is merely a tool that frees us from the burden of finding barter
>>> partners. If you want to go all the way to a system where nobody owns
>>> anything, we can discuss that. Some island systems in Tonga and Tahiti
>>> as well as some hunter gatherer cultures allegedly got past ownership,
>>> and simply shared all they had.
>>>
>>> This is the partial goal of some in the open source movement, as well
>>> as wikileaks and other parts of cyber space. You can't really
>>> effectively get rid of money without also getting rid of the concept
>>> of ownership.
>>>
>>> Now, if you get rid of the concept of ownership... you have to go all
>>> the way, and this eventually means that you cannot claim ownership of
>>> the sub-strait that you use to compute. That is currently your brain.
>>> Some day, it may be a different medium, and you can't own that either.
>>>
>>> A true and full form of collectivism, where we become the Borg, where
>>> we lose all individuality and ego is the only alternative to money
>>> that really makes any sense.
>>>
>>> I get the idea that most of the people on this list are fierce
>>> individualists, and want to remain as individuals. So I don't think,
>>> in the end, many of the list members will go along with "let's get rid
>>> of money"...
>>>
>>> On the other hand, you could probably find a lot of people who would
>>> go along with let's get rid of the federal reserve, or let's get rid
>>> of fractionalized banking... or other aspects of our financial
>>> systems. But that is not money. Money is a much more primitive beast
>>> than that.
>>>
>>> > I think human nature is the problem.
>>>
>>> Here Dave is clearly onto something... :-)  But how much of our human
>>> nature do we really want to give up? Are we really better off without
>>> anger? Are we better off without jealousy? Could we throw out
>>> religion? Get rid of the concept that other people somehow "belong" to
>>> us (as in a "committed" relationship)? What do we want to lose in
>>> order to gain the most. And what is most important to gain?
>>>
>>> Just adding more intelligence without any other adjustments seems to
>>> be a rather limiting choice... likely to lead to a really bad outcome.
>>> But is altruism the answer? Is compassion the answer? More empathy?
>>> Love?
>>>
>>> These are not easy questions, and I don't expect glib answers that
>>> will solve the real problems this kind of thing brings up.
>>>
>>> -Kelly
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>
>>
>>
>
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From spike66 at att.net  Fri Nov 11 21:14:40 2011
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 13:14:40 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Capitalism, anti capitalism, emotional arousal
In-Reply-To: <008301cca0b3$f0d87710$d2896530$@att.net>
References: <BF7498ED-47C3-4434-B841-95AF22F61F8F@alumni.Virginia.edu>	<CAPoR7a5YXDGmfYzZS1ERLxqw8v26iqcdSoByU6d+cZhEpQoJHg@mail.gmail.com>	<CAPy8RwZUV+__qzEKvdK518Fd+WMfF3HamfmacK9cKH+WVo18bQ@mail.gmail.com>	<20111110150839.yntsygmgc744cws4@webmail.natasha.cc>	<CAPy8RwZfyZPRvwoksCy7JcSTPTDDjmb-FewtUM0_ooNsVsM9Aw@mail.gmail.com>	<20111110164204.a0lp2q6c5ws40wc8@webmail.natasha.cc>	<CAPoR7a5jCVXjZgcuiPdDRABX0U=OmhPP8g10atUwZeEav2_1rQ@mail.gmail.com>	<CAL+RtPe9mHgJE1MWH2v8-fdFs-u2ZQqD=bVPhD80B06MhKYAPQ@mail.gmail.com>	<000f01cca0a3$350c8c70$9f25a550$@att.net>	<CAL+RtPfFd1gUN4BXMZoc=qZ7hP6UyUadXdVS8Y8Cz0mEEwxkqw@mail.gmail.com>
	<008301cca0b3$f0d87710$d2896530$@att.net>
Message-ID: <00a001cca0b6$ed4f9710$c7eec530$@att.net>

2011/11/11 spike <spike66 at att.net>

 

>. Power is the problem.  Money is the solution.

 

 

Lack of money is the root of all evil.

 

spike

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From gsantostasi at gmail.com  Fri Nov 11 21:43:41 2011
From: gsantostasi at gmail.com (Giovanni Santostasi)
Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 15:43:41 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Capitalism, anti capitalism, emotional arousal
In-Reply-To: <00a001cca0b6$ed4f9710$c7eec530$@att.net>
References: <BF7498ED-47C3-4434-B841-95AF22F61F8F@alumni.Virginia.edu>
	<CAPoR7a5YXDGmfYzZS1ERLxqw8v26iqcdSoByU6d+cZhEpQoJHg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPy8RwZUV+__qzEKvdK518Fd+WMfF3HamfmacK9cKH+WVo18bQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111110150839.yntsygmgc744cws4@webmail.natasha.cc>
	<CAPy8RwZfyZPRvwoksCy7JcSTPTDDjmb-FewtUM0_ooNsVsM9Aw@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111110164204.a0lp2q6c5ws40wc8@webmail.natasha.cc>
	<CAPoR7a5jCVXjZgcuiPdDRABX0U=OmhPP8g10atUwZeEav2_1rQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAL+RtPe9mHgJE1MWH2v8-fdFs-u2ZQqD=bVPhD80B06MhKYAPQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<000f01cca0a3$350c8c70$9f25a550$@att.net>
	<CAL+RtPfFd1gUN4BXMZoc=qZ7hP6UyUadXdVS8Y8Cz0mEEwxkqw@mail.gmail.com>
	<008301cca0b3$f0d87710$d2896530$@att.net>
	<00a001cca0b6$ed4f9710$c7eec530$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAL+RtPeM5wYGr2qrBRQ-bVm0w-k=ix3Hrn=r3bwV1pA6BJGhLQ@mail.gmail.com>

Probably you are familiar with this series of videos, but I find them very
informative and interesting. This is one is entitled "Crisis of Capitalism":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOP2V_np2c0&feature=relmfu



2011/11/11 spike <spike66 at att.net>

> 2011/11/11 spike <spike66 at att.net>****
>
>  ****
>
> >? *Power is the problem.  Money is the solution.***
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> Lack of money is the root of all evil.****
>
> ** **
>
> spike****
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From spike66 at att.net  Fri Nov 11 21:32:24 2011
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 13:32:24 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Money and Human Nature (was Re: Capitalism,
	anti capitalism, emotional arousal)
In-Reply-To: <CAL+RtPc3csd9UDriuT=BiO_Nhs6orBSm7ejRbqJo_oU_vqJw5A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPy8RwYcPYP-DGuqTkFmHpfCPQFqE==warBZw+TS3wjXUY1c9Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAL+RtPc3csd9UDriuT=BiO_Nhs6orBSm7ejRbqJo_oU_vqJw5A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00ba01cca0b9$676dba20$36492e60$@att.net>

 

 

From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Giovanni
Santostasi
.

>.Money is merely a tool that frees us from the burden of finding barter
partners.

 

Tools help us do useful work.  Useful work is good, therefore money is good.

 

 

 

>. Some island systems in Tonga and Tahiti
as well as some hunter gatherer cultures allegedly got past ownership,
and simply shared all they had.

 

 

Ja.  In what critical way do those island cultures differ from ours?  And
differ from Europe and everywhere else for that matter.  Answer: those
cultures are as close to being an enormous family as anywhere on the globe.
In families we do share everything.  Not toothbrushes, but everything else.

 

 

>. You can't really effectively get rid of money without also getting rid of
the concept
of ownership.

 

Well, sorta.  The government gets rid of my money, while keeping the concept
of ownership.  Specifically their ownership of my money.

 

 

>.A true and full form of collectivism, where we become the Borg, where
we lose all individuality and ego is the only alternative to money
that really makes any sense.

 

How is the Borg fundamentally different from our culture?  See above.

 



>.I get the idea that most of the people on this list are fierce
individualists, and want to remain as individuals. So I don't think,
in the end, many of the list members will go along with "let's get rid
of money"...

 

That depends on whose money you are proposing to get rid of.  Your money?
OK.  Mine?  Nein.  I have spent a lifetime struggling for my money and I
don't want to get rid of it.  On the other hand, I have not spent a lifetime
struggling for your money.  So I have no problem with your getting rid of
yours.  That's your business.  Unless of course you get rid of yours and
subsequently need some of mine.  I will not let you starve.  Then it becomes
my business.

 



>. Money is a much more primitive beast than that.

 

Some of my favorite beasts are primitive.



>> I think human nature is the problem.

>.Here Dave is clearly onto something... :-)  But how much of our human
nature do we really want to give up? Are we really better off without
anger? 

 

Ja I think so.

 

 

>.Are we better off without jealousy?

 

Ja I think so.

 

 

>. Could we throw out religion? -Kelly

 

Depends on what you mean by "we."  I have thrown out my religion.  You may,
with my encouragement, throw out yours.  But there are powerful forms of
religion today which resist being thrown out.  If you try to throw out that
religion, it will likely throw out you.  Permanently.

 

Good questions all, Kelly.

 

spike

 

 

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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Fri Nov 11 22:05:01 2011
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 23:05:01 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Why Pioneers Breed Like Rabbits
In-Reply-To: <20111111120552.GZ31847@leitl.org>
References: <20111111075626.GX31847@leitl.org>
	<CAL_armgaiLi05r9aMoOP9aFS31GmeTTSWGJWQ6npCFdxqTYnhQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111111120552.GZ31847@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a4beY01_Cgp+=QLYvrDffd=2sWt07+Fnqvk+CBGEj-kWQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 11 November 2011 13:05, Eugen Leitl <eugen at leitl.org> wrote:

> Life which is capable of restructuring hitherto barren environments
> into occupyable niches (niche (auto-)construction) has no such issues.
>

I fully agree with Eugen.

Before fire, everything north of tropical weather was a barren, inhabitable
environment for humans.

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From spike66 at att.net  Fri Nov 11 21:53:43 2011
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 13:53:43 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Capitalism, anti capitalism, emotional arousal
In-Reply-To: <CAL+RtPeM5wYGr2qrBRQ-bVm0w-k=ix3Hrn=r3bwV1pA6BJGhLQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BF7498ED-47C3-4434-B841-95AF22F61F8F@alumni.Virginia.edu>	<CAPoR7a5YXDGmfYzZS1ERLxqw8v26iqcdSoByU6d+cZhEpQoJHg@mail.gmail.com>	<CAPy8RwZUV+__qzEKvdK518Fd+WMfF3HamfmacK9cKH+WVo18bQ@mail.gmail.com>	<20111110150839.yntsygmgc744cws4@webmail.natasha.cc>	<CAPy8RwZfyZPRvwoksCy7JcSTPTDDjmb-FewtUM0_ooNsVsM9Aw@mail.gmail.com>	<20111110164204.a0lp2q6c5ws40wc8@webmail.natasha.cc>	<CAPoR7a5jCVXjZgcuiPdDRABX0U=OmhPP8g10atUwZeEav2_1rQ@mail.gmail.com>	<CAL+RtPe9mHgJE1MWH2v8-fdFs-u2ZQqD=bVPhD80B06MhKYAPQ@mail.gmail.com>	<000f01cca0a3$350c8c70$9f25a550$@att.net>	<CAL+RtPfFd1gUN4BXMZoc=qZ7hP6UyUadXdVS8Y8Cz0mEEwxkqw@mail.gmail.com>	<008301cca0b3$f0d87710$d2896530$@att.net>	<00a001cca0b6$ed4f9710$c7eec530$@att.net>
	<CAL+RtPeM5wYGr2qrBRQ-bVm0w-k=ix3Hrn=r3bwV1pA6BJGhLQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00c801cca0bc$62322110$26966330$@att.net>

 

 

From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Giovanni
Santostasi
Subject: Re: [ExI] Capitalism, anti capitalism, emotional arousal

 

>.Probably you are familiar with this series of videos, but I find them very
informative and interesting. This is one is entitled "Crisis of Capitalism":

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOP2V_np2c0
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOP2V_np2c0&feature=relmfu> &feature=relmfu

 

 

I am familiar with these.  Whenever I view this one I think of evolution.
Evolution got us here, evolution can get us the rest of the way.  Change
takes time, but evolution eventually finds some insanely great solutions.

I consider myself an extreme centrist evolutionary.  We have a chant: Whadda
we want?  STEADY IMPROVEMENT!  When do we want it?  GRADUALLY!

spike

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

2011/11/11 spike <spike66 at att.net>

2011/11/11 spike <spike66 at att.net>

 

>. Power is the problem.  Money is the solution.

 

 

Lack of money is the root of all evil.

 

spike


_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

 

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From sjatkins at mac.com  Fri Nov 11 22:29:56 2011
From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 14:29:56 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Capitalism, anti capitalism, emotional arousal
In-Reply-To: <BF7498ED-47C3-4434-B841-95AF22F61F8F@alumni.Virginia.edu>
References: <BF7498ED-47C3-4434-B841-95AF22F61F8F@alumni.Virginia.edu>
Message-ID: <6D634427-A434-4C11-B134-7F9E9D79F4DF@mac.com>

There are far too many people jumping on the anti-captialism bandwagon with no real understanding of what capitalism is or what is at stake.  When I see a group claiming it is defining itself by doing the same thing with no real evidence of understanding either then it is too bad for that group.

Capitalism in its true form is very much freedom in the sphere of economics.  Freedom to produce what you choose and trade it for whatever you can reach a mutually acceptable agreement on.  The rest is definition by inessentials or merely what one has been conditioned to associate with capitalism whether it has anything particularly to do with capitalism or not.  A system where the government has very large favors to sell to business is not capitalism or a result of capitalism.  It is a result of runaway government and of allowing massive government involvement in the economy.   Nor does capitalism of necessity lead to such bromides and the "rich get richer and the poor get poorer".  Historically actual capitalism has resulted in unprecedented gains to the poor as well as the rich.  

Capitalism is precisely what we have not had in the US, not actual free markets and economy, for a very long time.  So to blame Capitalism is enough to make my blood boil.

- samantha
On Nov 10, 2011, at 4:03 AM, Henry Rivera wrote:

> Wow! How interesting it is to see everyone get all worked up about Zero State's development of an ideology, which I might add is still a work in progress. My view is that capitalism is a means to an end which will become obsolete after a certain tipping point. There is nothing anyone can do about that, so in this sense Zero State is just ahead of the curve in explicitly welcoming this. An attempt to show that a political system can function without capitalistic values is worthwhile. "Unfettered capitalism" could improve things in the interim but will eventually become obsolete politically as well. The target of current contempt as I see it is systematic oppression of millions of people facilitated by capitalism as it currently exists driven by greed. Consider the data released this week in the US indicating 16% or 49 million people in the US live below or near the poverty line, which is $22,000USD for a family of four. Can anyone really defend that in this modern age particu!
> larly in a first world country? On the other hand, people working within the current system will argue their accumulation of wealth is fair game; they are playing by the rules (which they helped to create I might add, which is the nature of oppression and built into the system in the US where there is little to limit financial influence of legislators by the wealthy relative to Europe for example). Zero State is taking the position that the logical solution is a new system that doesn't facilitate the rich getting richer by rewarding greed and oppression. Anyone who read Amon's whole statement will see this is not an anti free trade position. It's more about the activity of free trade as it functions in our current political system. Calling that anti-capitalist certainly pushed some buttons and will likely change based on recent discussion. As I said the development of this new ideology is a work in progress. Contribute. It's your future too. If the direction of Zero State i!
> s not your cup of tea, propose and implement your own solutions to compete. Complacency and tolerance of oppression is despicable to me.
> -Henry
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

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From sjatkins at mac.com  Fri Nov 11 22:32:19 2011
From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 14:32:19 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Capitalism, anti capitalism, emotional arousal
In-Reply-To: <CAPoR7a59MG=Wf7igG=ujw1a1w89fNscR8WN_TztoxGs_BxM2Hw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BF7498ED-47C3-4434-B841-95AF22F61F8F@alumni.Virginia.edu>
	<CAPoR7a5YXDGmfYzZS1ERLxqw8v26iqcdSoByU6d+cZhEpQoJHg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPy8RwZUV+__qzEKvdK518Fd+WMfF3HamfmacK9cKH+WVo18bQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPoR7a59MG=Wf7igG=ujw1a1w89fNscR8WN_TztoxGs_BxM2Hw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BCB58C40-80C5-4643-953D-6BE427907730@mac.com>


On Nov 11, 2011, at 6:28 AM, Stefano Vaj wrote:

> On 10 November 2011 20:41, Kelly Anderson <kellycoinguy at gmail.com> wrote:
> > So yes, Roark would not work for a bank, but he might run one. The
> > mindless minions could turn the cranks.
> 
> I beg to differ, and strange thing indeed that I find myself defending Ms Rand here... :-)
> 
> In The Fountainhead we do have a characterGail Wynand, who "runs a bank", in the sense that he is rich and powerful, but only as long as he does not try to exert his power in any direction other than he is expected to, and the novel ends with his final demise.
> 
> On the contrary, Roark could easily win by playing by the rules, and yet he chooses to work as a labourer rather than accepting them.
> 
> -- 
> Stefano Vaj
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

Look up the Midas Mulligan character in Atlas Shrugged for Rand's conception of a virtuous banker. 

- samantha

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From sjatkins at mac.com  Fri Nov 11 22:37:04 2011
From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 14:37:04 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Capitalism, anti capitalism, emotional arousal
In-Reply-To: <CAL+RtPe9mHgJE1MWH2v8-fdFs-u2ZQqD=bVPhD80B06MhKYAPQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BF7498ED-47C3-4434-B841-95AF22F61F8F@alumni.Virginia.edu>
	<CAPoR7a5YXDGmfYzZS1ERLxqw8v26iqcdSoByU6d+cZhEpQoJHg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPy8RwZUV+__qzEKvdK518Fd+WMfF3HamfmacK9cKH+WVo18bQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111110150839.yntsygmgc744cws4@webmail.natasha.cc>
	<CAPy8RwZfyZPRvwoksCy7JcSTPTDDjmb-FewtUM0_ooNsVsM9Aw@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111110164204.a0lp2q6c5ws40wc8@webmail.natasha.cc>
	<CAPoR7a5jCVXjZgcuiPdDRABX0U=OmhPP8g10atUwZeEav2_1rQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAL+RtPe9mHgJE1MWH2v8-fdFs-u2ZQqD=bVPhD80B06MhKYAPQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56E090F7-1445-4EAD-BF84-995FD3198F6C@mac.com>


On Nov 11, 2011, at 10:33 AM, Giovanni Santostasi wrote:

> If you listen carefully the video "New Order-Wake up call" (that it is too much leaning towards conspiracy theorism to be taken seriously in its entirety) in it there is a gem:
> "these people have so much money that they don't care about money anymore, it is all about power".
> That is so true. This is why any talk about unfettered, enlightened  capitalism is non sense.
> It is not about how to achieve wealth or increase the standards of living of as many people as possible.
> Once some people have reached a level of wealth that is so much higher than everybody else the end game is gaining and playing with power.
> This why spreading wealth is not possible in any form of capitalism because its end game is for few people to gain unlimited power through hording resources in the fewest hand possible.
> Giovanni
> 
> 


If you want to see people that care about nothing but power then look at politicians, not business people and investors.  The billionaires and multi-millionaires I know are not in interested in power for power's sake but only as a means to make manifest the next thing they would love to see come into existence.     Generally I like their dreams a LOT better than those of most politicians who send goons with guns to take the money to continue trying to increase their own power and make the impossible possible. 

In a meritocracy or free market situation you can only amass a lot of money by producing things that a lot of people consider valuable enough to pay you for.  I think that is a hell of a lot cleaner than the political alternative.

- samantha

> 
> 2011/11/11 Stefano Vaj <stefano.vaj at gmail.com>
> 2011/11/10 <natasha at natasha.cc>
> 
> My ideological position is as a designer.  I think about socio-economics and biopolitics as a design problem. My political leaning: "locate the problem, find the most effective way to resolve it, and get going."  This has to be done with an unbiased, logical methodology for seeing what is most workable, doable with the most amount of thought/knowledge and the least amount of waste.  It is a formula to resolve rather than to label. 
> 
> This is *exactly* my own view.
> 
> -- 
> Stefano Vaj
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

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From natasha at natasha.cc  Fri Nov 11 22:38:09 2011
From: natasha at natasha.cc (natasha at natasha.cc)
Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 17:38:09 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Capitalism, anti capitalism, emotional arousal
In-Reply-To: <6D634427-A434-4C11-B134-7F9E9D79F4DF@mac.com>
References: <BF7498ED-47C3-4434-B841-95AF22F61F8F@alumni.Virginia.edu>
	<6D634427-A434-4C11-B134-7F9E9D79F4DF@mac.com>
Message-ID: <20111111173809.87xy73o0g8gkk0ko@webmail.natasha.cc>



   S. says:

   > Capitalism is precisely what we have not had in the US, not actual?
> free markets and economy, for a very long time.? So to blame?  
> Capitalism is enough to make my blood boil.

   Applaud!

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From kellycoinguy at gmail.com  Fri Nov 11 22:39:04 2011
From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 15:39:04 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Capitalism, anti capitalism, emotional arousal
In-Reply-To: <20111111160508.5vzxyxw7kcggowkw@webmail.natasha.cc>
References: <BF7498ED-47C3-4434-B841-95AF22F61F8F@alumni.Virginia.edu>
	<CAPoR7a5YXDGmfYzZS1ERLxqw8v26iqcdSoByU6d+cZhEpQoJHg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPy8RwZUV+__qzEKvdK518Fd+WMfF3HamfmacK9cKH+WVo18bQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111110150839.yntsygmgc744cws4@webmail.natasha.cc>
	<CAPy8RwZfyZPRvwoksCy7JcSTPTDDjmb-FewtUM0_ooNsVsM9Aw@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111110164204.a0lp2q6c5ws40wc8@webmail.natasha.cc>
	<CAPy8RwaXQVK2sorUeG1fzTv3ofuYUtnMh6HmZERm5OUFbvo+Ww@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111111160508.5vzxyxw7kcggowkw@webmail.natasha.cc>
Message-ID: <CAPy8RwbbVwA+1jeJsdo1Qw48=ATH3+ZsAUwbwuZnWzSDusjrWw@mail.gmail.com>

2011/11/11  <natasha at natasha.cc>:
> Quoting Kelly Anderson <kellycoinguy at gmail.com>:
>
>> Not familiar with Esfandiary...
>
> You might want to read his writings if you are interested in ?transhuman?
> concepts.

Are you referring to F. M. Esfandiary? He's got three books at Amazon,
entitled "Optimism One: The Emerging Radicalism" "Up-wingers" and
"Identity Card" is that what you are referring to?

>>> I don't begrudge
>> the President a little R&R...
>
> Well, he certainly does take many, many vacations. Executive jobs are tough,
> so is raising a family. That?s understood. This issue is that he is not a
> good leader in my view.

I absolutely agree with you there. I think he will be defeated in the
largest landslide since Reagan... There's just nothing to recommend
him. Even for left wingers, he's been a big disappointment. He hasn't
extracted us from the wars, there are still as many soldiers deployed
around the world, the bungled investment into solar energy are just
embarrassing.

> Did Giuliani go on to Aspen skiing as NYC was?in a
> rut?? If Obama looked exhausted, skinny, and bags under his eyes, I?d gladly
> help pay for a trip to the Vineyard because I would know that he earned it.
> Yes, this is judgmental on my part, but it is my view and I am sticking to
> it.

I can't disagree... but Presidents in general deserve and need
vacations to avoid becoming dangerously tired. And I do mean
dangerous... that's a lot of power.

>> Altruism for it's own sake has evil components,
>
> Why interpret what I said this way? There is a difference between altruism
> and benevolence. I speak of benevolence. Anyway,??... "random acts of
> kindness and senseless acts?beauty of beauty".

I wasn't interpreting. Just clarifying. Sounds like we're on the same
basic wavelength here. I believe in benevolence. I also enjoy the
"random acts of journalism" that the AP occasionally stumbles into...
LOL.

The lack of journalistic integrity has to be one of the major
contributors to the downfall of America as well...

>> Do the masses need an opiate??? Since religion no longer fills that
>> void for many people, do we need the NFL, NBA and comedy shows and
>> other television (as well as video games, the Internet LOL cats, etc.)
>> to provide the drug for the masses? Does this prevent mass revolt in
>> the street? I often think that if we cancelled all major sports for a
>> year, and only had reruns on TV, we would have bonfires in the
>> streets...
>
> You are obfuscating?my point. I'm not taking about cancelling TV or sports.
> I am an avid TV watcher. I am referring to specific narratives.? I don't
> need to take the time to explain these do I?

No. I was merely making a tangential point.

> If you turn on the TV you
> will see programming that is informative, entertaining and exciting.? And
> you will also see programming that is manipulative, argumentative, and
> appealing to the reptilian brain.?If you watch the new H+ film, you
> will?probably thing?H+ is a horrible future.?So, narratives that squelch
> critical thinking and promote stupidity are not the same as programming that
> excites, uplifts or promotes contemplation.

Fair enough.

>> That's all well and good. I think we all view ourselves in this
>> manner. It's just that most people tend to settle into a mode that
>> they think accomplishes this in the most effective manner. Perhaps if
>> you gave an example of a real world problem with it's real world
>> solution that you admire, that would give some insight...
>
> The problem is that you do not know me and are making assumptions that I am
> not *real bright*.? I'll just let this one pass.

I would never make such an assumption about you Natasha... honestly. I
don't know a lot about you, but what I do know inspires me. Please
don't think that I'm disrespecting you or your intelligence in any
way.

>> So as an example of something I'm enthusiastic about was the thing we
>> noted a few weeks back about putting day light to use in slums and
>> favelas... or the TED talk on replacing indoor use of charcoal with
>> another fuel, or the Gates foundation work on zapping mosquitos with
>> lasers. Those are REAL solutions. Public health care is just another
>> government boondoggle and power grab.
>
> Yeh -- These are a design solutions to real problems.
>
> Kelly, your posts are interesting and you mean well, but I think the problem
> in our communication is that you are talking at me and not to me.? This is
> often the case on lists.

I often feel misunderstood by you... and I wish that weren't the case.
I can't help but feel that if we met in person, we would get along
great... :-)  But my inability to express myself properly in plain old
black and white is just too limited.... I will ponder what you mean by
talking at you as opposed to "to" you... and will endeavor to do
better... but I honestly don't understand it at this point...

Very Respectfully Yours,
-Kelly



From pharos at gmail.com  Fri Nov 11 22:46:31 2011
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 22:46:31 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Why Pioneers Breed Like Rabbits
In-Reply-To: <CAPoR7a4beY01_Cgp+=QLYvrDffd=2sWt07+Fnqvk+CBGEj-kWQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20111111075626.GX31847@leitl.org>
	<CAL_armgaiLi05r9aMoOP9aFS31GmeTTSWGJWQ6npCFdxqTYnhQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111111120552.GZ31847@leitl.org>
	<CAPoR7a4beY01_Cgp+=QLYvrDffd=2sWt07+Fnqvk+CBGEj-kWQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armjW43ndjFLdND69ntHMjWzw0Kq-7T+7Ae_w8y1YBfT2Vw@mail.gmail.com>

2011/11/11 Stefano Vaj wrote:
> Before fire, everything north of tropical weather was a barren, inhabitable
> environment for humans.
>
>

I doubt if that is a correct interpretation of early human expansion.
Humans originated in Africa and spread outwards from there. In Europe
they encountered the Neanderthals who were already living in colder
climes. When the last ice age occurred they all moved back south, then
went north again when the ice retreated. Cooked food appears very
early in the fossil record. Fire was probably just one of the tools
carried along with early humans.


BillK


From sjatkins at mac.com  Fri Nov 11 22:47:23 2011
From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 14:47:23 -0800
Subject: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 98, Issue 14
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB6NRF4JWMWdq_1UVif71tmA1Xm7HuD3LcH0XU98C0RrLg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1321012801.5574.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<CAPiwVB6NRF4JWMWdq_1UVif71tmA1Xm7HuD3LcH0XU98C0RrLg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <53CE4F7C-B03E-4701-81B9-E874C87A7D17@mac.com>


On Nov 11, 2011, at 7:38 AM, Keith Henson wrote:

> On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 5:00 AM,   BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:
> 

<snip>

>> But advanced civilisation is the opposite of breeding like rabbits.
>> Evolutionary expansion no longer applies. They *choose* their
>> environment and build it to suit themselves. They *choose* how many
>> progeny they want to create and for what purpose. If they have
>> thousand-year lifespans they will probably create very few offspring.
> 
> I suspect they will live practically forever and have *no* offspring at all.
> 
> Along that line, it seems to me humans could be extinct by the
> definition of "a breeding population" before the end of this century.
> That probably closes off space for good.  Speed of light delays might
> limit people to the planet if they can't stand to be more than so many
> nanoseconds from the center of things.  People are already spending
> hundreds of millions of dollars to chop off a few ms from the New York
> to London fiber path.

Well, unless you can use one of the speculative ways to keep a planet warm without a local sun and send the earth on a journey outwards..    Then you take the entire center civilization with you. 

Also, technology is headed rapidly to the entire knowledge base of the species in a smaller and cheaper volume. Once we also have the ability to do massive intellectual churn with similarly small embedded greater than human intelligence a reasonable size starship can be an extremely rich and fast moving development space.  As you are starting fresh without much of the clutter and previous constrains of the home system it could be argued that the fastest and richest development is away from the species cradle planet.

But before we can fly we have to walk.  Until we can exploit near earth space and the inner system it is rather pointless to dream of flying away to the stars - except to escape the many poisonous inanities and lock-ins of the inner system.

- samantha

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From sjatkins at mac.com  Fri Nov 11 22:51:42 2011
From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 14:51:42 -0800
Subject: [ExI] China model vs. US model
In-Reply-To: <CAOFRd6gYcvHHVq=rsPHKFNMX_C1fQTj1ME+EoD4E5q+6RnKMLA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOFRd6gYcvHHVq=rsPHKFNMX_C1fQTj1ME+EoD4E5q+6RnKMLA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <73441249-DB29-4D7D-BE71-F1ABF3CAE601@mac.com>


On Nov 10, 2011, at 7:38 PM, Joseph Bloch wrote:

> Especially in light of the recent discussion, I thought this article
> was interesting:
> 
> http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/nov/9/beijing-blueprint/?page=all#pagebreak
> 
> The focus on the article is the relative strengths of weaknesses of
> China's political dictatorship vs. the US's political pluralism, but
> the common thread seems to be the fact that both seem to be sharing a
> common economic system.
> 
> Perhaps just as we speak of "democratic socialism", we might need to
> enlarge our vocabulary to also include "democratic capitalism" and
> "autocratic capitalism". Or would the latter simply be "fascism"?
> 

Or hey, you could do something really shocking.  Don't assume that government has any legitimate role in economics and economic transactions except a minimal number of laws and dispute resolution.   Let the economic ecology find its own balance and let all intelligent beings be free to produce and trade and keep the fruits of their labors to the maximal extent possible without having to get any permissions from non-producers and governments.

- s



From kellycoinguy at gmail.com  Fri Nov 11 22:23:58 2011
From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 15:23:58 -0700
Subject: [ExI] China model vs. US model
In-Reply-To: <CAGSKFy3dqt0w1yDKspwHrbxLAE9=en3RBifih+M6JQCRMq8RMA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOFRd6gYcvHHVq=rsPHKFNMX_C1fQTj1ME+EoD4E5q+6RnKMLA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAGSKFy3dqt0w1yDKspwHrbxLAE9=en3RBifih+M6JQCRMq8RMA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPy8RwapFqWWHJzUQc8cYzm6UpTp5LNv+QeKuj0DVitUVjDmhw@mail.gmail.com>

2011/11/10 John Grigg <possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com>:
> On Thu, Nov 10, 2011 at 8:38 PM, Joseph Bloch
> <seculartranshumanist at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
> As I looked over the audience I notice very few people in their twenties or
> even thirties. I found this both sad and astonishing, since young people are
> the ones who will have to deal with this coming of age rival superpower that
> within 15 years will?outstrip us economically. I could have been visiting a
> retirement home...

I was under the impression that China would have the world's largest
economy by 2017... what is this 15 year thing? Is that when they
outstrip us on a per capita basis?

It is hardly arguable that the overall Chinese system is better than
the US system at this moment in history. The US system is over
burdened by unnecessary bureaucracy in the form of OSHA, FDA, EPA, and
a dozen other like departments. I rather doubt that the government in
China consists of 15% of the overall economy, but I don't know for
sure about that.

We are also held back by years of idiotic bargaining with unions that
were hell bent on delivering the goods today, to hell with tomorrow.
When large car companies make more money off of their retirement funds
than from building cars, there's a problem.

We also have the entitlement issue which is truly the third rail of
American politics. Nobody wants to deal with that mess in a sane
fashion.

We also have one of the most complex tax systems ever conceived of by
man. When you only get the right answer to your question 30% of the
time when you call the IRS itself, there's something wrong.

None of this makes me a communist, of course... I see long term
problems facing China. Once they have a generation of spoiled only
children with concentrated wealth, the political climate will change,
and those spoiled children will be asking for more political freedoms.

The five year plans have been working for China, but that doesn't
guarantee that they will continue to work. They have computers and
better data than the old Soviet planners, and so they are likely to
make better decisions... and maybe they'll turn the whole economy over
to an advanced AI system at some point and really go crazy good.

Can America compete? Sure, we can. But the last three years have
really pushed us in the direction of ineffectiveness by the immense
power grab in Washington. I'm sure there's some parallel to the senate
in Rome, prior to Augustus... and perhaps America is ripe for a
dictator to do a power grab. If not now, maybe in another decade of
decline such a monster will arise. At that point, I'll be glad if I
can get myself and my family out of here. It won't be pretty if that
is the future we face. Just imagine a dictator with direct power over
as much of the economy as we've put into the hands of government. It
could be a bumpy ride kids!

-Kelly



From gsantostasi at gmail.com  Fri Nov 11 22:54:35 2011
From: gsantostasi at gmail.com (Giovanni Santostasi)
Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 16:54:35 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Capitalism, anti capitalism, emotional arousal
In-Reply-To: <6D634427-A434-4C11-B134-7F9E9D79F4DF@mac.com>
References: <BF7498ED-47C3-4434-B841-95AF22F61F8F@alumni.Virginia.edu>
	<6D634427-A434-4C11-B134-7F9E9D79F4DF@mac.com>
Message-ID: <CAL+RtPdMjCW_P3ptFgX4wN0Zw_XBsdkoPm_qnrt6yKrZNtR5xQ@mail.gmail.com>

Yeah,
Socialism is what Soviet Union and China didn't ever have.
Stop with the praises of capitalism and some ghost capitalism that never
existed.
Capitalism real or ghostly is unsustainable. Maybe it had a purpose to
reach certain goal (industrial revolution) but we need to find better ways
to organize sentient beings on this planet.
All what you have to do to understand capitalism is to read Marx, it is
very well explained in his work why it sucks for the majority of us.
Giovanni


2011/11/11 Samantha Atkins <sjatkins at mac.com>

> There are far too many people jumping on the anti-captialism bandwagon
> with no real understanding of what capitalism is or what is at stake.  When
> I see a group claiming it is defining itself by doing the same thing with
> no real evidence of understanding either then it is too bad for that group.
>
> Capitalism in its true form is very much freedom in the sphere of
> economics.  Freedom to produce what you choose and trade it for whatever
> you can reach a mutually acceptable agreement on.  The rest is definition
> by inessentials or merely what one has been conditioned to associate with
> capitalism whether it has anything particularly to do with capitalism or
> not.  A system where the government has very large favors to sell to
> business is not capitalism or a result of capitalism.  It is a result of
> runaway government and of allowing massive government involvement in the
> economy.   Nor does capitalism of necessity lead to such bromides and the
> "rich get richer and the poor get poorer".  Historically actual capitalism
> has resulted in unprecedented gains to the poor as well as the rich.
>
> Capitalism is precisely what we have not had in the US, not actual free
> markets and economy, for a very long time.  So to blame Capitalism is
> enough to make my blood boil.
>
> - samantha
> On Nov 10, 2011, at 4:03 AM, Henry Rivera wrote:
>
> Wow! How interesting it is to see everyone get all worked up about Zero
> State's development of an ideology, which I might add is still a work in
> progress. My view is that capitalism is a means to an end which will become
> obsolete after a certain tipping point. There is nothing anyone can do
> about that, so in this sense Zero State is just ahead of the curve in
> explicitly welcoming this. An attempt to show that a political system can
> function without capitalistic values is worthwhile. "Unfettered capitalism"
> could improve things in the interim but will eventually become obsolete
> politically as well. The target of current contempt as I see it is
> systematic oppression of millions of people facilitated by capitalism as it
> currently exists driven by greed. Consider the data released this week in
> the US indicating 16% or 49 million people in the US live below or near the
> poverty line, which is $22,000USD for a family of four. Can anyone really
> defend that in this modern age particu!
> larly in a first world country? On the other hand, people working within
> the current system will argue their accumulation of wealth is fair game;
> they are playing by the rules (which they helped to create I might add,
> which is the nature of oppression and built into the system in the US where
> there is little to limit financial influence of legislators by the wealthy
> relative to Europe for example). Zero State is taking the position that the
> logical solution is a new system that doesn't facilitate the rich getting
> richer by rewarding greed and oppression. Anyone who read Amon's whole
> statement will see this is not an anti free trade position. It's more about
> the activity of free trade as it functions in our current political system.
> Calling that anti-capitalist certainly pushed some buttons and will likely
> change based on recent discussion. As I said the development of this new
> ideology is a work in progress. Contribute. It's your future too. If the
> direction of Zero State i!
> s not your cup of tea, propose and implement your own solutions to
> compete. Complacency and tolerance of oppression is despicable to me.
> -Henry
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Fri Nov 11 23:04:03 2011
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 16:04:03 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Why Pioneers Breed Like Rabbits
In-Reply-To: <CAPoR7a4beY01_Cgp+=QLYvrDffd=2sWt07+Fnqvk+CBGEj-kWQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20111111075626.GX31847@leitl.org>
	<CAL_armgaiLi05r9aMoOP9aFS31GmeTTSWGJWQ6npCFdxqTYnhQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111111120552.GZ31847@leitl.org>
	<CAPoR7a4beY01_Cgp+=QLYvrDffd=2sWt07+Fnqvk+CBGEj-kWQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy2uE+CHaNaOA9J+cOjUMN1Pknm70c9tKwmW7RHHyyU_-A@mail.gmail.com>

I've been Iistening to alot of Rammstein lately, and I think Eugen
should be writing semi-autobiographical transhumanist-themed lyrics for an
industrial metal band.

What will the playlist be?

1. Fermi Paradox
2. AGI will get here (eventually)
3. I know my chemistry
4. My English is better than yours (and I was not even born into an English
speaking nation)
5. Dress like a pimp
6. The future is coming (but too late for us)
7. I'm trying to be patient, but I'm so much smarter than you
8. ........ (and many more!)........

What other song titles come to mind?


John  : )
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From spike66 at att.net  Fri Nov 11 23:00:46 2011
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 15:00:46 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Capitalism, anti capitalism, emotional arousal
In-Reply-To: <6D634427-A434-4C11-B134-7F9E9D79F4DF@mac.com>
References: <BF7498ED-47C3-4434-B841-95AF22F61F8F@alumni.Virginia.edu>
	<6D634427-A434-4C11-B134-7F9E9D79F4DF@mac.com>
Message-ID: <011b01cca0c5$c01513b0$403f3b10$@att.net>

 

 

From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Samantha Atkins



>.Nor does capitalism of necessity lead to such bromides and the "rich get
richer and the poor get poorer".  

 

Ja.  Since China went functionally capitalist, Chinese doctors have been
seeing a rash of obesity and related diseases, a sharp rise in diabetes,
etc, what they refer to as rich man's syndrome because it is their upper
class which gets these.  But note that all these things are what kills poor
people in the US: the puzzling argument is they are too poor to afford a
proper diet, so they eat cheap high fat foods.  So Chinese doctors come to
the states to study our poor man's syndrome in order to learn how to treat
their rich man's syndrome.   America has some of the richest poor people in
the world.

 

In capitalism, the rich get richer, and the poor get richer.  Granted the
rich get waaay richer, faster, but the poor get richer too.

 

This is a very important point once you look at what the poor can have.  For
the most part, they can have houses.  Granted they are not as nice as the
rich peoples' houses, but they have them.  And the American poor have food.
They generally have cars, even if not very good ones.  And TVs.  Most of the
people occupying Oakland have homes somewhere.  

 

>.  So to blame Capitalism is enough to make my blood boil.  - samantha

 

It need not.  If a system mostly works, it doesn't need defending.  The
local business people who are suffering from the Oakland occupation need
defending, but capitalism does not.  Capitalism can defend itself.  No blood
boiling required.  Criticize away, show me a better way, and we will
eventually evolve into that.

 

spike

 

Over my limit today, see you tomorrow.

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From gsantostasi at gmail.com  Fri Nov 11 23:56:57 2011
From: gsantostasi at gmail.com (Giovanni Santostasi)
Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 17:56:57 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Capitalism, anti capitalism, emotional arousal
In-Reply-To: <011b01cca0c5$c01513b0$403f3b10$@att.net>
References: <BF7498ED-47C3-4434-B841-95AF22F61F8F@alumni.Virginia.edu>
	<6D634427-A434-4C11-B134-7F9E9D79F4DF@mac.com>
	<011b01cca0c5$c01513b0$403f3b10$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAL+RtPdwDJtzuxHzGT2o6iFpPmPr7B1OEPnDwJNv4P-0B0miVg@mail.gmail.com>

This shows that poor and rich are relative concepts.
The poor people in the US are more powerful and richer in many ways than
kings in the middle ages.
The most powerful king in the middle age could not fight common disease or
get in instant communication with somebody across the world.

But that is not the point.
The point is that it is still easy for many people to go in a down-spiral
where everything is lost, even in this society that gives to some people
benefits that rich people in the past would have dreamed of.
Not just that if the society richest can afford so much more than the
average person, that is unfair. We are not talking a little more but much
more. I have posted several links about what inequality does in society (it
lowers all kind of social measure of well being). And inequality is not
inequality with other countries but within particular community.
Giovanni



2011/11/11 spike <spike66 at att.net>

> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:
> extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] *On Behalf Of *Samantha Atkins
>
> **
>
> *>?*Nor does capitalism of necessity lead to such bromides and the "rich
> get richer and the poor get poorer".  ****
>
> ** **
>
> Ja.  Since China went functionally capitalist, Chinese doctors have been
> seeing a rash of obesity and related diseases, a sharp rise in diabetes,
> etc, what they refer to as rich man?s syndrome because it is their upper
> class which gets these.  But note that all these things are what kills poor
> people in the US: the puzzling argument is they are too poor to afford a
> proper diet, so they eat cheap high fat foods.  So Chinese doctors come to
> the states to study our poor man?s syndrome in order to learn how to treat
> their rich man?s syndrome.   America has some of the richest poor people in
> the world.****
>
> ** **
>
> In capitalism, the rich get richer, and the poor get richer.  Granted the
> rich get waaay richer, faster, but the poor get richer too.****
>
> ** **
>
> This is a very important point once you look at what the poor can have.
> For the most part, they can have houses.  Granted they are not as nice as
> the rich peoples? houses, but they have them.  And the American poor have
> food.  They generally have cars, even if not very good ones.  And TVs.
> Most of the people occupying Oakland have homes somewhere.  ****
>
> ** **
>
> >?  So to blame Capitalism is enough to make my blood boil.  - samantha***
> *
>
> ** **
>
> It need not.  If a system mostly works, it doesn?t need defending.  The
> local business people who are suffering from the Oakland occupation need
> defending, but capitalism does not.  Capitalism can defend itself.  No
> blood boiling required.  Criticize away, show me a better way, and we will
> eventually evolve into that.****
>
> ** **
>
> spike****
>
> ** **
>
> Over my limit today, see you tomorrow.****
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From clementlawyer at gmail.com  Sat Nov 12 09:14:58 2011
From: clementlawyer at gmail.com (James Clement)
Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 10:14:58 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Capitalism, anti capitalism, emotional arousal
In-Reply-To: <6D634427-A434-4C11-B134-7F9E9D79F4DF@mac.com>
References: <BF7498ED-47C3-4434-B841-95AF22F61F8F@alumni.Virginia.edu>
	<6D634427-A434-4C11-B134-7F9E9D79F4DF@mac.com>
Message-ID: <2E83A2B0-8919-4FE3-9C41-AFA382BAD307@gmail.com>

On Nov 11, 2011, at 11:29 PM, Samantha Atkins <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:

> ...Capitalism in its true form is very much freedom in the sphere of economics.  Freedom to produce what you choose and trade it for whatever you can reach a mutually acceptable agreement on.  The rest is definition by inessentials or merely what one has been conditioned to associate with capitalism whether it has anything particularly to do with capitalism or not.  A system where the government has very large favors to sell to business is not capitalism or a result of capitalism.  It is a result of runaway government and of allowing massive government involvement in the economy.   Nor does capitalism of necessity lead to such bromides and the "rich get richer and the poor get poorer".  Historically actual capitalism has resulted in unprecedented gains to the poor as well as the rich.  
>> 

I completely agree with Samantha. Over time, governments, and hence politicians, gain too much power, which they can use to enrich themselves or those who would buy their favors. That's why I'm an Anarcho-Capitalist, or, at the least, a Laissez-Faire Capitalist. There is similar corruption in any economic system (capitalism, socialism, communism, etc.), where politicians have been given vast power to regulate society. The answer must start with severely limiting their power!

James Clement
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From kgh1kgh2 at gmail.com  Sat Nov 12 10:52:08 2011
From: kgh1kgh2 at gmail.com (Kevin G Haskell)
Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 05:52:08 -0500
Subject: [ExI] OWS Rolling in the Mud
Message-ID: <CAEUzo3KZhNh7x+dLXxYm9eBqAj10hQJXkdajLpG9kqGa0LsC8A@mail.gmail.com>

My heart goes out to everyone who have lost jobs, houses, gone bankrupt,
and have seen a lot of other horrible things happen to them economically.
But attacking Capitalism as the problem, when no Western nation presently
practices Capitalism, but an awful Socialist/Capitalist hybrid of one sort
of the other, is very misguided.

The problem is thousands upon thousands of pages of new regulations placed
on people trying to make an independent living, every year, by federal,
state,and local governments, are crushing the inventive and productive
class.  We have to take the burden off from the producers, and out of the
hands of the lawyers in government who know nothing other than how to make
more laws that oppress those who strive, who want to take care of
themselves and their families, not be a burden on the community, not be
dependent, and who actually provide jobs and benefits for others.  These
are the people we should be looking to for leadership, not the people who
have put us in this predicament.

But if that majority of people in the OWS movement in Western nations will
continue to blame to the wrong parties for this growing mess, then perhaps
they should at least stop using the all of the products that were produced
by Capitalism, such as their tents, clothes, most foods, cameras, phones,
computers, bathrooms, toilet paper, feminine hygiene products, soap,
shampoo, ink for their signs, the paper they write their messages on,
private and public transportation, etc.,etc.

If the want to really hate Capitalism, let them show it, and have them give
up these the products and services, and let them freely roll in the mud in
the outdoors (without the benefit of indoor heat and hot water of course,
in the winter, to clean up afterwards, or air conditioning when the weather
gets sweltering hot, again.)  Let them prove it all, and stay outside. They
can make their homemade clothes and grow their vegetables.  They also
should have no ambitions to go to soup kitchens, which are provided by
indirect donations derived by Capitalism.

Let those who advocate it here, or anywhere, feel free to either be
anti-Capitalist, or support the same sick Socialist/Capitalist mix we've
seen that has caused this corrosion and disease we've seen and see. Go
ahead to those in here (unnamed, of course,) too, and give up all of those
things.

Please do show us the way,  through your actions, and not just your words.
Go out and live among the OWS and see if they can provide for your needs
with their anti-Capitalist ideology. Let them provide for your security
(since most of you are defiant about not protecting yourselves with
firearms.) Go ahead and trust 'them," whoever they are. If we don't hear
from you, we'll assume you found it satisfactory. If we do hear from you,
then we'll assume you failed and decided to get real about ending this
Progressivism/Socialism disease that's been tearing us all down, and help
us fix this situation.

So, go ahead and roll in the mud and your own filth. The rest of us would
like to work toward furthering human development and evolution, but we'll
keep a close eye on your efforts. We promise.

Kevin
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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Sat Nov 12 15:36:30 2011
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 16:36:30 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Money and Human Nature (was Re: Capitalism,
 anti capitalism, emotional arousal)
In-Reply-To: <CAPy8RwYcPYP-DGuqTkFmHpfCPQFqE==warBZw+TS3wjXUY1c9Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPy8RwYcPYP-DGuqTkFmHpfCPQFqE==warBZw+TS3wjXUY1c9Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a4TYgSD=ZLQ_0oczPSAnsVjPnukb8SsP6NOAB=vS4SvXg@mail.gmail.com>

On 11 November 2011 21:55, Kelly Anderson <kellycoinguy at gmail.com> wrote:

> Money is merely a tool that frees us from the burden of finding barter
> partners. If you want to go all the way to a system where nobody owns
> anything, we can discuss that. Some island systems in Tonga and Tahiti
> as well as some hunter gatherer cultures allegedly got past ownership,
> and simply shared all they had.
>

Money evolved quite a lot along history, as shown for instance by Money as
Debt <http://www.moneyasdebt.net/>, as well as those in control thereof and
its social function. I am not sure that some kind of "money", probably in
the form of accounting units records, should not be maintained, and in fact
it was even during the most radical socialist experiments, but this leaves
open to debate most significant issues affecting it.

Ownership is an altogether different issue. The members of the ruling class
in Sparta, eg, had no personal ownership whatsoever (contrary to lower
classes).

Yet, they certainly did not share all they had with anybody, and had a
rather strong sense of their individuality - eg, they were certainly not
unconcerned by things such as personal honor or ambition.

-- 
Stefano Vaj

<http://int.ask.com/web?siteid=10000861&webqsrc=999&l=dis&q=Money%20as%20Debt>
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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Sat Nov 12 15:46:36 2011
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 16:46:36 +0100
Subject: [ExI] China model vs. US model
In-Reply-To: <CAPy8RwapFqWWHJzUQc8cYzm6UpTp5LNv+QeKuj0DVitUVjDmhw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOFRd6gYcvHHVq=rsPHKFNMX_C1fQTj1ME+EoD4E5q+6RnKMLA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAGSKFy3dqt0w1yDKspwHrbxLAE9=en3RBifih+M6JQCRMq8RMA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPy8RwapFqWWHJzUQc8cYzm6UpTp5LNv+QeKuj0DVitUVjDmhw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a4D8Ao17OD9G-FhqTkPNEsesRYVHv=9QeLYYd_Azgr_FQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 11 November 2011 23:23, Kelly Anderson <kellycoinguy at gmail.com> wrote:

> We are also held back by years of idiotic bargaining with unions that
> were hell bent on delivering the goods today, to hell with tomorrow.
>

One wonders about libertarians' attitude towards unions (and cartels in
general), which after all are consensual arrangements between willing
parties to further their economic interests.

Besides the possible existence of legislation supporting (or sometimes
fighting) them, the only answer I know is a blind faith that unraveling
mechanisms should always prevail, and prevent their stabilisation by
rewarding defectors. But theory of games shows that this need not be the
case...


> Once they have a generation of spoiled only
> children with concentrated wealth, the political climate will change,
> and those spoiled children will be asking for more political freedoms.
>

As that of choosing between too candidates with almost identical platforms,
reporting to the same lobbies? :-)

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Sat Nov 12 15:48:53 2011
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 16:48:53 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Why Pioneers Breed Like Rabbits
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armjW43ndjFLdND69ntHMjWzw0Kq-7T+7Ae_w8y1YBfT2Vw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20111111075626.GX31847@leitl.org>
	<CAL_armgaiLi05r9aMoOP9aFS31GmeTTSWGJWQ6npCFdxqTYnhQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111111120552.GZ31847@leitl.org>
	<CAPoR7a4beY01_Cgp+=QLYvrDffd=2sWt07+Fnqvk+CBGEj-kWQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAL_armjW43ndjFLdND69ntHMjWzw0Kq-7T+7Ae_w8y1YBfT2Vw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a45tX7WknLi-gNyZ9Rpe_ET=a=4axqDmidLFz=j7wC0Vg@mail.gmail.com>

On 11 November 2011 23:46, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:

> 2011/11/11 Stefano Vaj wrote:
> > Before fire, everything north of tropical weather was a barren,
> inhabitable
> > environment for humans.
>
> I doubt if that is a correct interpretation of early human expansion.
> Humans originated in Africa and spread outwards from there. In Europe
> they encountered the Neanderthals who were already living in colder
> climes. When the last ice age occurred they all moved back south, then
> went north again when the ice retreated. Cooked food appears very
> early in the fossil record. Fire was probably just one of the tools
> carried along with early humans.
>

So? I am not saying this was recent. I am only saying that chimps never
colonised Klondyke.

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From spike66 at att.net  Sat Nov 12 15:58:07 2011
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 07:58:07 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Money and Human Nature (was Re: Capitalism,
	anti capitalism, emotional arousal)
In-Reply-To: <CAPoR7a4TYgSD=ZLQ_0oczPSAnsVjPnukb8SsP6NOAB=vS4SvXg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPy8RwYcPYP-DGuqTkFmHpfCPQFqE==warBZw+TS3wjXUY1c9Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPoR7a4TYgSD=ZLQ_0oczPSAnsVjPnukb8SsP6NOAB=vS4SvXg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <01c801cca153$defcd1d0$9cf67570$@att.net>

 

 

From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Stefano Vaj
.


>.Money evolved quite a lot along history, as shown for instance by Money as
Debt <http://www.moneyasdebt.net/> , as well as those in control thereof and
its social function. I am not sure that some kind of "money", probably in
the form of accounting units records, should not be maintained, and in fact
it was even during the most radical socialist experiments, but this leaves
open to debate most significant issues affecting it.Stefano Vaj

 

 

During this discussion when some have commented about our need to get rid of
money, I thought of a memoir my neighbor dictated to me about the fall of
Vietnam.  She lived with her husband and three daughters during the final
days of Saigon as the communists closed in.  They were a relatively well-off
family: she was a French translator and bookkeeper for a French-owned bank,
her husband was a manufacturing technician.  Fearing instability, they
withdrew their savings and were holding it in the form of paper currency
hidden in their homes, very well hidden.

 

The communists took over the country.  She went to see if she could trade
any of the old currency for the new.  She was told the old currency was of
no value to them, to go find the people who issued it, most of whom were
dead or in prison, if she wanted to trade it for something of value.  Their
advice to her was to avoid being seen with that currency, being as it would
bring suspicion upon her and her family.  Mind reeling, she wobbled toward
the door.  On the way out, she saw some of the old currency in the waste
basket.

 

I am trying to imagine doing that with greenbacks, and seeing a pile of
hundred dollar bills in the trash.

 

spike   

 

 

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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Sat Nov 12 16:10:10 2011
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 17:10:10 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Capitalism, anti capitalism, emotional arousal
In-Reply-To: <CAL+RtPe9mHgJE1MWH2v8-fdFs-u2ZQqD=bVPhD80B06MhKYAPQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BF7498ED-47C3-4434-B841-95AF22F61F8F@alumni.Virginia.edu>
	<CAPoR7a5YXDGmfYzZS1ERLxqw8v26iqcdSoByU6d+cZhEpQoJHg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPy8RwZUV+__qzEKvdK518Fd+WMfF3HamfmacK9cKH+WVo18bQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111110150839.yntsygmgc744cws4@webmail.natasha.cc>
	<CAPy8RwZfyZPRvwoksCy7JcSTPTDDjmb-FewtUM0_ooNsVsM9Aw@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111110164204.a0lp2q6c5ws40wc8@webmail.natasha.cc>
	<CAPoR7a5jCVXjZgcuiPdDRABX0U=OmhPP8g10atUwZeEav2_1rQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAL+RtPe9mHgJE1MWH2v8-fdFs-u2ZQqD=bVPhD80B06MhKYAPQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a4a=f07Do87Wvp_6F8Wr9uK9_SC9idofeLC+AK=VaZzXA@mail.gmail.com>

2011/11/11 Giovanni Santostasi <gsantostasi at gmail.com>

> If you listen carefully the video "New Order-Wake up call" (that it is too
> much leaning towards conspiracy theorism to be taken seriously in
> its entirety) in it there is a gem:
> "these people have so much money that they don't care about money anymore,
> it is all about power".
>

This is a very important point.

There is a limit to the number or quality of steaks money can allow you to
eat, and the marginal utility function of money drops quite precipitously
at, say, Soros's  level. What makes you still work, often much longer hours
than your average Wal-Mart employee?

The answer of course is power. Now, I may be more comfortable with the will
to power than others. What I am not comfortable with is that power be
allocated exclusively on the basis of your worth in dollars, to the
detriment of whatever other features and selective criteria one can imagine.

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Sat Nov 12 16:35:28 2011
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 17:35:28 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Capitalism, anti capitalism, emotional arousal
In-Reply-To: <CAPy8RwYyOv7Mhv_8EXpaEq04rPFbgAqGP4SJx1hyMFtSr13WUw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BF7498ED-47C3-4434-B841-95AF22F61F8F@alumni.Virginia.edu>
	<CAPoR7a5YXDGmfYzZS1ERLxqw8v26iqcdSoByU6d+cZhEpQoJHg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPy8RwZUV+__qzEKvdK518Fd+WMfF3HamfmacK9cKH+WVo18bQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPoR7a59MG=Wf7igG=ujw1a1w89fNscR8WN_TztoxGs_BxM2Hw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPy8RwYyOv7Mhv_8EXpaEq04rPFbgAqGP4SJx1hyMFtSr13WUw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a64XNEDB8iTZNa_0TwyJC_2NXXcNTvf9d4VCJ5sUp1=Ag@mail.gmail.com>

On 11 November 2011 21:12, Kelly Anderson <kellycoinguy at gmail.com> wrote:

> So you can't say that Rand was
> dead set against banking, as long as it was backed by gold. How that
> would work in today's world is beyond me... to be honest.
>

I took "running a bank" simply as a metaphor of the Gail Wynand's kind of
power, where you are successful, you are even powerful in a sense, but
cannot really do anything else than play a game where you have an indeed
limited say.

The president of the United States, say, is certainly a powerful man, even
today. Yet, I suspect that any president that really tried to deviate more
than millimetres from the path dictated by circumstances and powers that
be, let alone start a revolution, would find himself impeached in a New
York minute, or removed by even more expeditious means (see under
"Kennedy").

This is why I think that political engagement is for transhumanists
certainly OK, but hardly a priority or a crucial arena.

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Sat Nov 12 16:51:05 2011
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 17:51:05 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Money and Human Nature (was Re: Capitalism,
 anti capitalism, emotional arousal)
In-Reply-To: <01c801cca153$defcd1d0$9cf67570$@att.net>
References: <CAPy8RwYcPYP-DGuqTkFmHpfCPQFqE==warBZw+TS3wjXUY1c9Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPoR7a4TYgSD=ZLQ_0oczPSAnsVjPnukb8SsP6NOAB=vS4SvXg@mail.gmail.com>
	<01c801cca153$defcd1d0$9cf67570$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a7=Fx-YzY4MjePr=tpR07Gc3ZtFkXkCo=X3ss=SdFw47w@mail.gmail.com>

2011/11/12 spike <spike66 at att.net>

> I am trying to imagine doing that with greenbacks, and seeing a pile of
> hundred dollar bills in the trash.
>

Well, what you could sooner or later be seeing is that your bits and byte
in some account are not accepted any more in exchange for goods and
services, or even for other similar bits and bytes... :-)

BTW, the communist regime in Viet Nam never abolished money, not even
foreign exchange and it was incredibly naive of them to put all their
wealth in the currency of the regime about to be defeated...

-- 
Stefano Vaj
 <http://int.ask.com/web?siteid=10000861&webqsrc=999&l=dis&q=%20>
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From alfio.puglisi at gmail.com  Sat Nov 12 16:08:17 2011
From: alfio.puglisi at gmail.com (Alfio Puglisi)
Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 17:08:17 +0100
Subject: [ExI] OWS Rolling in the Mud
In-Reply-To: <CAEUzo3KZhNh7x+dLXxYm9eBqAj10hQJXkdajLpG9kqGa0LsC8A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEUzo3KZhNh7x+dLXxYm9eBqAj10hQJXkdajLpG9kqGa0LsC8A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJUeD7hJm-p6T+65Ea2J1mnCfN4MuYmhhXdPmD4rtm1VojvVKg@mail.gmail.com>

2011/11/12 Kevin G Haskell <kgh1kgh2 at gmail.com>

> [...] when no Western nation presently practices Capitalism, but an awful
> Socialist/Capitalist hybrid of one sort of the other, is very misguided.
>
>
> But if that majority of people in the OWS movement in Western nations will
> continue to blame to the wrong parties for this growing mess, then perhaps
> they should at least stop using the all of the products that were produced
> by Capitalism, such as their tents, clothes, most foods, cameras, phones,
> computers, bathrooms, toilet paper, feminine hygiene products, soap,
> shampoo, ink for their signs, the paper they write their messages on,
> private and public transportation, etc.,etc.
>
>
There is something that puzzles me, if no nation on Earth practices pure
capitalism (and this is obviously true), but instead "some awful hybrid"
how can the production of all those goods be ascribed to capitalism and not
to something else? How is the partition done, if possible at all?

Alfio
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From gsantostasi at gmail.com  Sat Nov 12 17:20:19 2011
From: gsantostasi at gmail.com (Giovanni Santostasi)
Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 11:20:19 -0600
Subject: [ExI] OWS Rolling in the Mud
In-Reply-To: <CAEUzo3KZhNh7x+dLXxYm9eBqAj10hQJXkdajLpG9kqGa0LsC8A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEUzo3KZhNh7x+dLXxYm9eBqAj10hQJXkdajLpG9kqGa0LsC8A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL+RtPccV2iXtyt=joFBqM20c16r-NikzxFTu396Ksi=xZs5aA@mail.gmail.com>

It is the most stupid form of socialism where money is taken from the poor
to subsidize rich individuals and corporations.
Giovanni


2011/11/12 Kevin G Haskell <kgh1kgh2 at gmail.com>

> My heart goes out to everyone who have lost jobs, houses, gone bankrupt,
> and have seen a lot of other horrible things happen to them economically.
> But attacking Capitalism as the problem, when no Western nation presently
> practices Capitalism, but an awful Socialist/Capitalist hybrid of one sort
> of the other, is very misguided.
>
> The problem is thousands upon thousands of pages of new regulations placed
> on people trying to make an independent living, every year, by federal,
> state,and local governments, are crushing the inventive and productive
> class.  We have to take the burden off from the producers, and out of the
> hands of the lawyers in government who know nothing other than how to make
> more laws that oppress those who strive, who want to take care of
> themselves and their families, not be a burden on the community, not be
> dependent, and who actually provide jobs and benefits for others.  These
> are the people we should be looking to for leadership, not the people who
> have put us in this predicament.
>
> But if that majority of people in the OWS movement in Western nations will
> continue to blame to the wrong parties for this growing mess, then perhaps
> they should at least stop using the all of the products that were produced
> by Capitalism, such as their tents, clothes, most foods, cameras, phones,
> computers, bathrooms, toilet paper, feminine hygiene products, soap,
> shampoo, ink for their signs, the paper they write their messages on,
> private and public transportation, etc.,etc.
>
> If the want to really hate Capitalism, let them show it, and have them
> give up these the products and services, and let them freely roll in the
> mud in the outdoors (without the benefit of indoor heat and hot water of
> course, in the winter, to clean up afterwards, or air conditioning when the
> weather gets sweltering hot, again.)  Let them prove it all, and stay
> outside. They can make their homemade clothes and grow their vegetables.
> They also should have no ambitions to go to soup kitchens, which are
> provided by indirect donations derived by Capitalism.
>
> Let those who advocate it here, or anywhere, feel free to either be
> anti-Capitalist, or support the same sick Socialist/Capitalist mix we've
> seen that has caused this corrosion and disease we've seen and see. Go
> ahead to those in here (unnamed, of course,) too, and give up all of those
> things.
>
> Please do show us the way,  through your actions, and not just your
> words.  Go out and live among the OWS and see if they can provide for your
> needs with their anti-Capitalist ideology. Let them provide for your
> security (since most of you are defiant about not protecting yourselves
> with firearms.) Go ahead and trust 'them," whoever they are. If we don't
> hear from you, we'll assume you found it satisfactory. If we do hear from
> you, then we'll assume you failed and decided to get real about ending this
> Progressivism/Socialism disease that's been tearing us all down, and help
> us fix this situation.
>
> So, go ahead and roll in the mud and your own filth. The rest of us would
> like to work toward furthering human development and evolution, but we'll
> keep a close eye on your efforts. We promise.
>
> Kevin
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Sat Nov 12 17:07:48 2011
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 09:07:48 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ExI] Money and Human Nature (was Re: Capitalism,
	anti capitalism, emotional arousal)
In-Reply-To: <CAPoR7a4TYgSD=ZLQ_0oczPSAnsVjPnukb8SsP6NOAB=vS4SvXg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPy8RwYcPYP-DGuqTkFmHpfCPQFqE==warBZw+TS3wjXUY1c9Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPoR7a4TYgSD=ZLQ_0oczPSAnsVjPnukb8SsP6NOAB=vS4SvXg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1321117668.9527.YahooMailNeo@web65613.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

>From: Stefano Vaj <stefano.vaj at gmail.com>
>To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
>Sent: Saturday, November 12, 2011 7:36 AM
>Subject: Re: [ExI] Money and Human Nature (was Re: Capitalism, anti capitalism, emotional arousal)
>
>
>On 11 November 2011 21:55, Kelly Anderson <kellycoinguy at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>Money is merely a tool that frees us from the burden of finding barter
>>partners. If you want to go all the way to a system where nobody owns
>>anything, we can discuss that. Some island systems in Tonga and Tahiti
>>as well as some hunter gatherer cultures allegedly got past ownership,
>>and simply shared all they had.
>>
>
>Money evolved quite a lot along history, as shown for instance by Money as Debt, as well as those in control thereof and its social function. I am not sure that some kind of "money", probably in the form of accounting units records, should not be maintained, and in fact it was even during the most radical socialist experiments, but this leaves open to debate most significant issues affecting it.

I would never suggest abolishing money altogether. The only way I could envisage it even being possible is a giant barter matching database that matched?sellers to buyers and allowed multilateral trades.The website on the Internet would Ebay and Amazon together to shame. Of course I would still?certainly miss greenbacks.
?
Stuart LaForge

?Institutions will try to preserve the problem to which they are the solution." -Clay Shirky



From spike66 at att.net  Sat Nov 12 17:15:54 2011
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 09:15:54 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Money and Human Nature (was Re: Capitalism,
	anti capitalism, emotional arousal)
In-Reply-To: <CAPoR7a7=Fx-YzY4MjePr=tpR07Gc3ZtFkXkCo=X3ss=SdFw47w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPy8RwYcPYP-DGuqTkFmHpfCPQFqE==warBZw+TS3wjXUY1c9Q@mail.gmail.com>	<CAPoR7a4TYgSD=ZLQ_0oczPSAnsVjPnukb8SsP6NOAB=vS4SvXg@mail.gmail.com>	<01c801cca153$defcd1d0$9cf67570$@att.net>
	<CAPoR7a7=Fx-YzY4MjePr=tpR07Gc3ZtFkXkCo=X3ss=SdFw47w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <021401cca15e$bc638be0$352aa3a0$@att.net>

 

 

>. On Behalf Of Stefano Vaj
Subject: Re: [ExI] Money and Human Nature (was Re: Capitalism, anti
capitalism, emotional arousal)

 

2011/11/12 spike <spike66 at att.net>

>>.I am trying to imagine doing that with greenbacks, and seeing a pile of
hundred dollar bills in the trash.

>.BTW, the communist regime in Viet Nam never abolished money, not even
foreign exchange and it was incredibly naive of them to put all their wealth
in the currency of the regime about to be defeated...-- Stefano Vaj

 

They didn't.  They had some of it in the form of gems and finished jewelry.
That fact allowed them to barter a hazardous path out of Vietnam, escape
into India, and later to France, then on to California, where they
eventually became my next door neighbors.  All three daughters are highly
successful.  The oldest runs a catering business, the second is an
electronics parts buyer who speaks four languages, the youngest went to
Harvard on a scholarship, served in the Peace Corps, is now a paralegal.

 

America is still the land of opportunity.

 

spike

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From gsantostasi at gmail.com  Sat Nov 12 17:29:52 2011
From: gsantostasi at gmail.com (Giovanni Santostasi)
Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 11:29:52 -0600
Subject: [ExI] OWS Rolling in the Mud
In-Reply-To: <CAL+RtPccV2iXtyt=joFBqM20c16r-NikzxFTu396Ksi=xZs5aA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEUzo3KZhNh7x+dLXxYm9eBqAj10hQJXkdajLpG9kqGa0LsC8A@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAL+RtPccV2iXtyt=joFBqM20c16r-NikzxFTu396Ksi=xZs5aA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL+RtPdiecuVWu=n9-Hhqtb1xLzyjGHAwO+9aSnbN6oO-afHUQ@mail.gmail.com>

Kevin,
OWS is not against productions of goods in general.
Goods can be produced in many different ways. Capitalism is not necessary.
I have posted videos showing that creativity in his highest form is not
motivated by money.
In the lab were I work people do very creative work, putting hours at night
and the weekend without making millions of dollars out of this.
A lot of creative people work without the motivation of money. What is
important is to have enough money not to have to think about money.
The super-rich ARE NOT THAT CREATIVE at all. It is a myth, a lie. There are
very few Steve Jobs over there. And most of the products are anyway created
not by CEO or board members but scientists, engineers, designers that are
not paid enormous quantity of money.
Why are gong back to the same trite arguments to support capitalism?
People could come together, create wonderful things and share them as it is
done in many creative commons projects.
It is just a question of imagining new forms of organization that are not
inevitably producing few people that are ruling over everybody else.
Giovanni


On Sat, Nov 12, 2011 at 11:20 AM, Giovanni Santostasi <gsantostasi at gmail.com
> wrote:

> It is the most stupid form of socialism where money is taken from the poor
> to subsidize rich individuals and corporations.
> Giovanni
>
>
> 2011/11/12 Kevin G Haskell <kgh1kgh2 at gmail.com>
>
>> My heart goes out to everyone who have lost jobs, houses, gone bankrupt,
>> and have seen a lot of other horrible things happen to them economically.
>> But attacking Capitalism as the problem, when no Western nation presently
>> practices Capitalism, but an awful Socialist/Capitalist hybrid of one sort
>> of the other, is very misguided.
>>
>> The problem is thousands upon thousands of pages of new regulations
>> placed on people trying to make an independent living, every year, by
>> federal, state,and local governments, are crushing the inventive and
>> productive class.  We have to take the burden off from the producers, and
>> out of the hands of the lawyers in government who know nothing other than
>> how to make more laws that oppress those who strive, who want to take care
>> of themselves and their families, not be a burden on the community, not be
>> dependent, and who actually provide jobs and benefits for others.  These
>> are the people we should be looking to for leadership, not the people who
>> have put us in this predicament.
>>
>> But if that majority of people in the OWS movement in Western nations
>> will continue to blame to the wrong parties for this growing mess, then
>> perhaps they should at least stop using the all of the products that were
>> produced by Capitalism, such as their tents, clothes, most foods, cameras,
>> phones, computers, bathrooms, toilet paper, feminine hygiene products,
>> soap, shampoo, ink for their signs, the paper they write their messages on,
>> private and public transportation, etc.,etc.
>>
>> If the want to really hate Capitalism, let them show it, and have them
>> give up these the products and services, and let them freely roll in the
>> mud in the outdoors (without the benefit of indoor heat and hot water of
>> course, in the winter, to clean up afterwards, or air conditioning when the
>> weather gets sweltering hot, again.)  Let them prove it all, and stay
>> outside. They can make their homemade clothes and grow their vegetables.
>> They also should have no ambitions to go to soup kitchens, which are
>> provided by indirect donations derived by Capitalism.
>>
>> Let those who advocate it here, or anywhere, feel free to either be
>> anti-Capitalist, or support the same sick Socialist/Capitalist mix we've
>> seen that has caused this corrosion and disease we've seen and see. Go
>> ahead to those in here (unnamed, of course,) too, and give up all of those
>> things.
>>
>> Please do show us the way,  through your actions, and not just your
>> words.  Go out and live among the OWS and see if they can provide for your
>> needs with their anti-Capitalist ideology. Let them provide for your
>> security (since most of you are defiant about not protecting yourselves
>> with firearms.) Go ahead and trust 'them," whoever they are. If we don't
>> hear from you, we'll assume you found it satisfactory. If we do hear from
>> you, then we'll assume you failed and decided to get real about ending this
>> Progressivism/Socialism disease that's been tearing us all down, and help
>> us fix this situation.
>>
>> So, go ahead and roll in the mud and your own filth. The rest of us would
>> like to work toward furthering human development and evolution, but we'll
>> keep a close eye on your efforts. We promise.
>>
>> Kevin
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
>>
>
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From gsantostasi at gmail.com  Sat Nov 12 17:37:47 2011
From: gsantostasi at gmail.com (Giovanni Santostasi)
Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 11:37:47 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Capitalism, anti capitalism, emotional arousal
In-Reply-To: <CAPoR7a4a=f07Do87Wvp_6F8Wr9uK9_SC9idofeLC+AK=VaZzXA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BF7498ED-47C3-4434-B841-95AF22F61F8F@alumni.Virginia.edu>
	<CAPoR7a5YXDGmfYzZS1ERLxqw8v26iqcdSoByU6d+cZhEpQoJHg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPy8RwZUV+__qzEKvdK518Fd+WMfF3HamfmacK9cKH+WVo18bQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111110150839.yntsygmgc744cws4@webmail.natasha.cc>
	<CAPy8RwZfyZPRvwoksCy7JcSTPTDDjmb-FewtUM0_ooNsVsM9Aw@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111110164204.a0lp2q6c5ws40wc8@webmail.natasha.cc>
	<CAPoR7a5jCVXjZgcuiPdDRABX0U=OmhPP8g10atUwZeEav2_1rQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAL+RtPe9mHgJE1MWH2v8-fdFs-u2ZQqD=bVPhD80B06MhKYAPQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPoR7a4a=f07Do87Wvp_6F8Wr9uK9_SC9idofeLC+AK=VaZzXA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL+RtPeO2m=eF9LVcY+fgkWMYkw8B=sOB5MpyfRgiYFLKQkPtg@mail.gmail.com>

Stefano,
I give as an example the people in the lab where I work. People put an
enormous amount of hours but it is not about power at all. Some people put
the time and hours for power. These people should be not have power at all,
in fact the greed for power should be a way to select people that should
not have ever too much power. Power should be given to whom have a deep
desire to lead by example and to sacrifice themselves for others. And
people in power should relinquish it after a certain time.
Giovanni


2011/11/12 Stefano Vaj <stefano.vaj at gmail.com>

> 2011/11/11 Giovanni Santostasi <gsantostasi at gmail.com>
>
>> If you listen carefully the video "New Order-Wake up call" (that it is
>> too much leaning towards conspiracy theorism to be taken seriously in
>> its entirety) in it there is a gem:
>> "these people have so much money that they don't care about money
>> anymore, it is all about power".
>>
>
> This is a very important point.
>
> There is a limit to the number or quality of steaks money can allow you to
> eat, and the marginal utility function of money drops quite precipitously
> at, say, Soros's  level. What makes you still work, often much longer hours
> than your average Wal-Mart employee?
>
> The answer of course is power. Now, I may be more comfortable with the
> will to power than others. What I am not comfortable with is that power be
> allocated exclusively on the basis of your worth in dollars, to the
> detriment of whatever other features and selective criteria one can imagine.
>
> --
> Stefano Vaj
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From clementlawyer at gmail.com  Sat Nov 12 18:29:37 2011
From: clementlawyer at gmail.com (James Clement)
Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 19:29:37 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Capitalism, anti capitalism, emotional arousal
In-Reply-To: <CAPoR7a4a=f07Do87Wvp_6F8Wr9uK9_SC9idofeLC+AK=VaZzXA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BF7498ED-47C3-4434-B841-95AF22F61F8F@alumni.Virginia.edu>
	<CAPoR7a5YXDGmfYzZS1ERLxqw8v26iqcdSoByU6d+cZhEpQoJHg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPy8RwZUV+__qzEKvdK518Fd+WMfF3HamfmacK9cKH+WVo18bQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111110150839.yntsygmgc744cws4@webmail.natasha.cc>
	<CAPy8RwZfyZPRvwoksCy7JcSTPTDDjmb-FewtUM0_ooNsVsM9Aw@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111110164204.a0lp2q6c5ws40wc8@webmail.natasha.cc>
	<CAPoR7a5jCVXjZgcuiPdDRABX0U=OmhPP8g10atUwZeEav2_1rQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAL+RtPe9mHgJE1MWH2v8-fdFs-u2ZQqD=bVPhD80B06MhKYAPQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPoR7a4a=f07Do87Wvp_6F8Wr9uK9_SC9idofeLC+AK=VaZzXA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+LBAbSzaWaAJT1UAf+U3LOtrw-g7Kin3=CF2R7xFOOQLNKh+Q@mail.gmail.com>

Stefano Vaj <stefano.vaj at gmail.com>

> This is a very important point.
>
> There is a limit to the number or quality of steaks money can allow you to
> eat, and the marginal utility function of money drops quite precipitously
> at, say, Soros's  level. What makes you still work, often much longer hours
> than your average Wal-Mart employee?
>
> The answer of course is power. Now, I may be more comfortable with the
> will to power than others. What I am not comfortable with is that power be
> allocated exclusively on the basis of your worth in dollars, to the
> detriment of whatever other features and selective criteria one can imagine.
>
> Stefano,

What's wrong with wanting to create a hugely successful company? Are the
values of some (for time to read, hang out with friends, be entertained,
etc.) override the values of others to be successful in the business world?
Do you really think that wanting to have money to keep your business on
top, start new businesses, invest in other companies that interest you,
donate to charities/causes you support, etc. are any less desirable than
the quality of the steaks you eat? If one is "power" then the other is
"power" too, in which case your analysis is meaningless.

Celebrities, teachers, authors, journalists, clergy, politicians, and many
others have "power," having nothing to do with money, over people. Why
would you single out the wealthy as the only group whom you'd be
uncomfortable with having power over people?

James Clement
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From kellycoinguy at gmail.com  Sat Nov 12 19:43:04 2011
From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 12:43:04 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Capitalism, anti capitalism, emotional arousal
In-Reply-To: <CAPoR7a4a=f07Do87Wvp_6F8Wr9uK9_SC9idofeLC+AK=VaZzXA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BF7498ED-47C3-4434-B841-95AF22F61F8F@alumni.Virginia.edu>
	<CAPoR7a5YXDGmfYzZS1ERLxqw8v26iqcdSoByU6d+cZhEpQoJHg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPy8RwZUV+__qzEKvdK518Fd+WMfF3HamfmacK9cKH+WVo18bQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111110150839.yntsygmgc744cws4@webmail.natasha.cc>
	<CAPy8RwZfyZPRvwoksCy7JcSTPTDDjmb-FewtUM0_ooNsVsM9Aw@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111110164204.a0lp2q6c5ws40wc8@webmail.natasha.cc>
	<CAPoR7a5jCVXjZgcuiPdDRABX0U=OmhPP8g10atUwZeEav2_1rQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAL+RtPe9mHgJE1MWH2v8-fdFs-u2ZQqD=bVPhD80B06MhKYAPQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPoR7a4a=f07Do87Wvp_6F8Wr9uK9_SC9idofeLC+AK=VaZzXA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPy8RwYBM0yADBZCAc1-uV5+vAGtT1EP7Z8gr8t-O7BQh9BLcA@mail.gmail.com>

2011/11/12 Stefano Vaj <stefano.vaj at gmail.com>:
> 2011/11/11 Giovanni Santostasi <gsantostasi at gmail.com>
>>
> The answer of course is power. Now, I may be more comfortable with the will
> to power than others. What I am not comfortable with is that power be
> allocated exclusively on the basis of your worth in dollars, to the
> detriment of whatever other features and selective criteria one can imagine.

I don't know that it is always power that motivates billionaires...
(though with Soros, one could clearly make that argument
persuasively.) Some that I know personally (Not Soros, I don't know
him) are motivated by the many people who depend upon their company
for making a living. That is, there is a responsibility to keep those
people employed that they feel very acutely. In other words, they feel
that if they stopped working, that the people working for their
company (who made them rich) are owed a living in exchange for what
they got from those employees.

In addition, they feel a responsibility to their customers, who also
made them rich. If they stopped working, they feel that they would
leave their customers in a lurch.

So this is a case of being owned by your company, as opposed to owning
your company. This is very counter-intuitive to most people, who
imagine that the life of the rich is sitting on cushions having grapes
placed gently upon their tongues. Rich people are more often than not
workaholics.

I would make the argument that today even more important than money in
power is reputation. I have virtually no money, but perhaps I have a
little bit of a positive reputation... and maybe people listen, just a
little bit, to what I have to say... And while I don't have the
reputation of a Steve Jobs, I'm not bereft of reputation either. In
the case of Jobs, money and reputation went together, but I would
argue his power came more from reputation than from money. Can you
disagree?

-Kelly


From gsantostasi at gmail.com  Sat Nov 12 19:50:06 2011
From: gsantostasi at gmail.com (Giovanni Santostasi)
Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 13:50:06 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Capitalism, anti capitalism, emotional arousal
In-Reply-To: <CAPy8RwYBM0yADBZCAc1-uV5+vAGtT1EP7Z8gr8t-O7BQh9BLcA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BF7498ED-47C3-4434-B841-95AF22F61F8F@alumni.Virginia.edu>
	<CAPoR7a5YXDGmfYzZS1ERLxqw8v26iqcdSoByU6d+cZhEpQoJHg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPy8RwZUV+__qzEKvdK518Fd+WMfF3HamfmacK9cKH+WVo18bQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111110150839.yntsygmgc744cws4@webmail.natasha.cc>
	<CAPy8RwZfyZPRvwoksCy7JcSTPTDDjmb-FewtUM0_ooNsVsM9Aw@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111110164204.a0lp2q6c5ws40wc8@webmail.natasha.cc>
	<CAPoR7a5jCVXjZgcuiPdDRABX0U=OmhPP8g10atUwZeEav2_1rQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAL+RtPe9mHgJE1MWH2v8-fdFs-u2ZQqD=bVPhD80B06MhKYAPQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPoR7a4a=f07Do87Wvp_6F8Wr9uK9_SC9idofeLC+AK=VaZzXA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPy8RwYBM0yADBZCAc1-uV5+vAGtT1EP7Z8gr8t-O7BQh9BLcA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL+RtPe2c7NJVy7XN4ov+0-M+YTDqdRZSc90OKOBu4-q3302Zg@mail.gmail.com>

Of course there is nothing wrong with owning a business (I owned 2
restaurants myself) and it can be a very creative and challenging work and
also beneficial to others (it should be).
What we are talking about is large corporations that are manipulating the
system to obtain unrestrained power and control over large number of people
with the results of increasing the corporation influence and power at the
price of decreasing the quality of life of millions of people, ruining the
environment, creating social unrest and so on.
Owing a business and running in a enlightened way, creating products that
are useful and good for the environment is a very useful enterprise.
Giovanni


On Sat, Nov 12, 2011 at 1:43 PM, Kelly Anderson <kellycoinguy at gmail.com>wrote:

> 2011/11/12 Stefano Vaj <stefano.vaj at gmail.com>:
> > 2011/11/11 Giovanni Santostasi <gsantostasi at gmail.com>
> >>
> > The answer of course is power. Now, I may be more comfortable with the
> will
> > to power than others. What I am not comfortable with is that power be
> > allocated exclusively on the basis of your worth in dollars, to the
> > detriment of whatever other features and selective criteria one can
> imagine.
>
> I don't know that it is always power that motivates billionaires...
> (though with Soros, one could clearly make that argument
> persuasively.) Some that I know personally (Not Soros, I don't know
> him) are motivated by the many people who depend upon their company
> for making a living. That is, there is a responsibility to keep those
> people employed that they feel very acutely. In other words, they feel
> that if they stopped working, that the people working for their
> company (who made them rich) are owed a living in exchange for what
> they got from those employees.
>
> In addition, they feel a responsibility to their customers, who also
> made them rich. If they stopped working, they feel that they would
> leave their customers in a lurch.
>
> So this is a case of being owned by your company, as opposed to owning
> your company. This is very counter-intuitive to most people, who
> imagine that the life of the rich is sitting on cushions having grapes
> placed gently upon their tongues. Rich people are more often than not
> workaholics.
>
> I would make the argument that today even more important than money in
> power is reputation. I have virtually no money, but perhaps I have a
> little bit of a positive reputation... and maybe people listen, just a
> little bit, to what I have to say... And while I don't have the
> reputation of a Steve Jobs, I'm not bereft of reputation either. In
> the case of Jobs, money and reputation went together, but I would
> argue his power came more from reputation than from money. Can you
> disagree?
>
> -Kelly
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From clementlawyer at gmail.com  Sat Nov 12 17:56:07 2011
From: clementlawyer at gmail.com (James Clement)
Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 18:56:07 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Capitalism, anti capitalism, emotional arousal
In-Reply-To: <CAPoR7a5YXDGmfYzZS1ERLxqw8v26iqcdSoByU6d+cZhEpQoJHg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BF7498ED-47C3-4434-B841-95AF22F61F8F@alumni.Virginia.edu>
	<CAPoR7a5YXDGmfYzZS1ERLxqw8v26iqcdSoByU6d+cZhEpQoJHg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+LBAbS4EPozxcm5LuX6Avm6gPz0=zsjoQOAWLE8ViA=M+su7A@mail.gmail.com>

Stefano Vaj posts:

IMHO, there are a number of question here, which might be open even
for the most fervent Randian amongst us:
...
- The *political* issues with capitalism, as opposed to *ethical*
issues ("greed and oppression", etc.), are IMHO:
i) Should really power and status in all societies be determined only
by one's money?
ii) Should one's money itself be determined on the exclusive basis of
features which often have little "natural" or social utility and
mostly perpetuate themselves through vicious circles and probably
outdated civilisational paradigms?
iii) Should self-referential interests of a globalist financial system
be allowed to expropriate popular sovereignties and induce stagnation
and loss of cultural/political pluralism and diversity ? la Brave New
World?

My responses:

i) Capitalism does not set moral/ethical standards in a society.  It's an
economic system that lets competition determine factors such as what gets
produced, who owns the means of production, and what price is set for
goods, services, labor, and resources. It's perfectly acceptable that
society determines (even in a Capitalist system) that something other than
wealth is esteemed.

ii) Capitalism rewards producers with resources for supplying products or
services that are demanded by consumers. If you think the consumers are
wrong in their choices, then you can try to persuade them to spend their
capital in other ways, short of coercing them.

iii) Why do we let politicians sell their votes and provide some groups
with benefits at the expense of others? We could easily throw them out of
power, but the fact is that most people are too lazy or insecure to really
change the status quo. What I find admirable about #OWS is their contempt
for corrupt politicians and the lobbyists/Corporatocracy that pays them off
for such benefits. If we limited the power of politicians (went to a
government either controlled directly by the Citizens through referendums,
or simply limited the scope of what government could do to defense, police
and courts, then the politicians would have no ability to hand out favors,
and corruption would virtually cease.

James Clement
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From kellycoinguy at gmail.com  Sat Nov 12 19:57:42 2011
From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 12:57:42 -0700
Subject: [ExI] OWS Rolling in the Mud
In-Reply-To: <CAJUeD7hJm-p6T+65Ea2J1mnCfN4MuYmhhXdPmD4rtm1VojvVKg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEUzo3KZhNh7x+dLXxYm9eBqAj10hQJXkdajLpG9kqGa0LsC8A@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAJUeD7hJm-p6T+65Ea2J1mnCfN4MuYmhhXdPmD4rtm1VojvVKg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPy8RwYusNNm+wPrZ4wo7rV9LBgvK1Gvgj=ge7AMAKh+Dg9brA@mail.gmail.com>

2011/11/12 Alfio Puglisi <alfio.puglisi at gmail.com>:
> There is something that puzzles me, if no nation on Earth practices pure
> capitalism (and this is obviously true), but instead "some awful hybrid" how
> can the production of all those goods be ascribed to capitalism and not to
> something else? How is the partition done, if possible at all?

Alfio,

  The government itself produces very little. Oh, it does produce a
few things... security, a level of safety, environmental protection,
law enforcement, fire protection, roads, infrastructure, and a
relative pittance of research results. But by and large the government
"taxes" the productive not just in money, but also in regulation.

  If the government costs 15% of the economy... and produces less than
1% to 2% of the goods and services, then the portion of the economy
that operates within the context of some freedom must be responsible
for the rest. So I think it is quite fair to ascribe most of the
available goods and services that are available to us today to the
free capitalistic portions of our economy that remain. At the very
least, you must admit that for every dollar spent by the free portion
of the economy, we get more than for every dollar spent by the
government.

-Kelly


From gsantostasi at gmail.com  Sat Nov 12 20:15:16 2011
From: gsantostasi at gmail.com (Giovanni Santostasi)
Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 14:15:16 -0600
Subject: [ExI] OWS Rolling in the Mud
In-Reply-To: <CAPy8RwYusNNm+wPrZ4wo7rV9LBgvK1Gvgj=ge7AMAKh+Dg9brA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEUzo3KZhNh7x+dLXxYm9eBqAj10hQJXkdajLpG9kqGa0LsC8A@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAJUeD7hJm-p6T+65Ea2J1mnCfN4MuYmhhXdPmD4rtm1VojvVKg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPy8RwYusNNm+wPrZ4wo7rV9LBgvK1Gvgj=ge7AMAKh+Dg9brA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL+RtPfqBRVD6u=9fD-KVUmG0eXXQuG7VT6gCKA9eX1NMpAOiQ@mail.gmail.com>

The reason the government is so expensive is because it works in
inefficient way. That can be fixed, there are government around the world
that are more efficient. But also a big part of the cost is due to how
politics is financed. That is through propaganda that needs to
pay enormous fees to media outlet to give exposure to a politician for
election.
That propaganda machine is fed by the current capitalistic system, it is
part of the endemic problem.
The political system is creating so many regulations, taxes and then tax
breaks (with always pending expiration dates that are renewed after
successful election campaigns) as a way of extorting money from the
corporations.
It is a sick system of codependency.
Giovanni



On Sat, Nov 12, 2011 at 1:57 PM, Kelly Anderson <kellycoinguy at gmail.com>wrote:

> 2011/11/12 Alfio Puglisi <alfio.puglisi at gmail.com>:
> > There is something that puzzles me, if no nation on Earth practices pure
> > capitalism (and this is obviously true), but instead "some awful hybrid"
> how
> > can the production of all those goods be ascribed to capitalism and not
> to
> > something else? How is the partition done, if possible at all?
>
> Alfio,
>
>  The government itself produces very little. Oh, it does produce a
> few things... security, a level of safety, environmental protection,
> law enforcement, fire protection, roads, infrastructure, and a
> relative pittance of research results. But by and large the government
> "taxes" the productive not just in money, but also in regulation.
>
>  If the government costs 15% of the economy... and produces less than
> 1% to 2% of the goods and services, then the portion of the economy
> that operates within the context of some freedom must be responsible
> for the rest. So I think it is quite fair to ascribe most of the
> available goods and services that are available to us today to the
> free capitalistic portions of our economy that remain. At the very
> least, you must admit that for every dollar spent by the free portion
> of the economy, we get more than for every dollar spent by the
> government.
>
> -Kelly
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From kellycoinguy at gmail.com  Sat Nov 12 20:23:28 2011
From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 13:23:28 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Capitalism, anti capitalism, emotional arousal
In-Reply-To: <CA+LBAbS4EPozxcm5LuX6Avm6gPz0=zsjoQOAWLE8ViA=M+su7A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BF7498ED-47C3-4434-B841-95AF22F61F8F@alumni.Virginia.edu>
	<CAPoR7a5YXDGmfYzZS1ERLxqw8v26iqcdSoByU6d+cZhEpQoJHg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+LBAbS4EPozxcm5LuX6Avm6gPz0=zsjoQOAWLE8ViA=M+su7A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPy8RwYb2+4w5werWHme-t03-cq2LEuTG_bNj_3gSHjM4ypePA@mail.gmail.com>

2011/11/12 James Clement <clementlawyer at gmail.com>:
> Stefano Vaj posts:
> IMHO, there are a number of question here, which might be open even
> for the most fervent Randian amongst us:
> ...
> - The *political* issues with capitalism, as opposed to *ethical*
> issues ("greed and oppression", etc.), are IMHO:
> i) Should really power and status in all societies be determined only
> by one's money?

No, it should be only one factor. I would argue that it IS only one
factor. We have fame, reputation, ingenuity, intelligence,
friendships, family ties and so forth. A typical Kennedy, Clinton or
Bush has more influence than they deserve on their own merits, does
that mean that we should be trying to tear down the families of power?
How much money one has, and particularly how much one is willing to
spend on the spread of memes important to that person, is and should
be one factor in power. I don't agree with Soros most of the time, but
I defend his right to do what he's doing.

> ii) Should one's money itself be determined on the exclusive basis of
> features which often have little "natural" or social utility and
> mostly perpetuate themselves through vicious circles and probably
> outdated civilisational paradigms?

I don't think this is the case, at least most of the time. Can you
give more examples of what you're thinking here? The most important
feature of a person who gains riches in our system is the willingness
to take risk. Risk is central to our capitalistic system.

> iii) Should self-referential interests of a globalist financial system
> be allowed to expropriate popular sovereignties and induce stagnation
> and loss of cultural/political pluralism and diversity ? la Brave New
> World?

The brilliance of the founding fathers was in realizing the necessity
of a balance of powers in maintaining a working system. The balance of
power between government, corporations and the press (among others) is
just as important to our system as the balance between the judicial,
legislative and executive branches.

It is hard to argue that corporations are currently more powerful than
the government... but I think you can argue that the people have less
power than ever, and this had led to both the Tea Party and the Occupy
Wall street movement (to the extent that each is not astroturfed.) The
people are trying to get their power back from both. The Tea Party
from the government, and the Occupy Wall street from corporations.
Both have a point, to be sure.

The question would seem to be how to give the people their part of power.

> My responses:
> i) Capitalism does not set moral/ethical standards in a society.

Yes, that's correct.

> It's an
> economic system that lets competition determine factors such as what gets
> produced, who owns the means of production, and what price is set for goods,
> services, labor, and resources. It's perfectly acceptable that society
> determines (even in a Capitalist system) that something other than wealth is
> esteemed.

And it does.

> ii) Capitalism rewards producers with resources for supplying products or
> services that are demanded by consumers. If you think the consumers are
> wrong in their choices, then you can try to persuade them to spend their
> capital in other ways, short of coercing them.

Or you could coerce them. The government often does, in fact. When it
goes into Gibson Guitar and takes away all their rare woods, it is
limiting consumer choice. (Whether you agree or not with this specific
case.) When it artificially props up solar companies, it is doing the
same. It does that sort of thing ALL THE TIME. In fact, I would argue
that the government is the prime source of coercion in our society.

> iii) Why do we let politicians sell their votes and provide some groups with
> benefits at the expense of others? We could easily throw them out of power,
> but the fact is that most people are too lazy or insecure to really change
> the status quo.

Or ignorant...

> What I find admirable about #OWS is their contempt for
> corrupt politicians and the lobbyists/Corporatocracy that pays them off for
> such benefits. If we limited the power of politicians (went to a government
> either controlled directly by the Citizens through referendums, or simply
> limited the scope of what government could do to defense, police and courts,
> then the politicians would have no ability to hand out favors, and
> corruption would virtually cease.

If OWS had a cogent alternative to the current system, that would make
them more credible. The tea party is simple, they want lower taxes.
The OWS is more complex, as some of them want communism, some the
return to a hunter-gatherer society... it's very confusing to a casual
observer.

-Kelly



From spike66 at att.net  Sat Nov 12 20:19:21 2011
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 12:19:21 -0800
Subject: [ExI] top posting
Message-ID: <028c01cca178$5d8b4ee0$18a1eca0$@att.net>

 

Herr Assistant Moderator comment:  We* have been seeing a lotta top posting
lately, of which We* are mostly tolerant, but the ExI archive protocol is to
put your response below the meme to which you are replying.  Otherwise it
gets confusing with regard to who wrote what first, thanks.

 

spike

 

 

*The usage is the atheist's royal We, the plural pronoun referring to Herr
Assistant Moderator and Evolution.  We enjoy considering Ourselves
Evolution's representative on earth.**

 

 

 

 

 

**  {8^D

 

 

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From gsantostasi at gmail.com  Sat Nov 12 20:37:26 2011
From: gsantostasi at gmail.com (Giovanni Santostasi)
Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 14:37:26 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Capitalism, anti capitalism, emotional arousal
In-Reply-To: <CAPy8RwYb2+4w5werWHme-t03-cq2LEuTG_bNj_3gSHjM4ypePA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BF7498ED-47C3-4434-B841-95AF22F61F8F@alumni.Virginia.edu>
	<CAPoR7a5YXDGmfYzZS1ERLxqw8v26iqcdSoByU6d+cZhEpQoJHg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+LBAbS4EPozxcm5LuX6Avm6gPz0=zsjoQOAWLE8ViA=M+su7A@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPy8RwYb2+4w5werWHme-t03-cq2LEuTG_bNj_3gSHjM4ypePA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL+RtPcc4iZCcOjCk7T5GQZXd1+xTrtdzOc5C4+8Ay9ELLL6NA@mail.gmail.com>

Why people think OWS has to do with going back to hunter-gatherer society
or communism?
Look at this for example:
http://www.yesmagazine.org/issues/new-livelihoods/whos-building-the-do-it-ourselves-economy

What is here that sounds like wanting to go back to hunter-gatherer society?
Giovanni


On Sat, Nov 12, 2011 at 2:23 PM, Kelly Anderson <kellycoinguy at gmail.com>wrote:

> 2011/11/12 James Clement <clementlawyer at gmail.com>:
> > Stefano Vaj posts:
> > IMHO, there are a number of question here, which might be open even
> > for the most fervent Randian amongst us:
> > ...
> > - The *political* issues with capitalism, as opposed to *ethical*
> > issues ("greed and oppression", etc.), are IMHO:
> > i) Should really power and status in all societies be determined only
> > by one's money?
>
> No, it should be only one factor. I would argue that it IS only one
> factor. We have fame, reputation, ingenuity, intelligence,
> friendships, family ties and so forth. A typical Kennedy, Clinton or
> Bush has more influence than they deserve on their own merits, does
> that mean that we should be trying to tear down the families of power?
> How much money one has, and particularly how much one is willing to
> spend on the spread of memes important to that person, is and should
> be one factor in power. I don't agree with Soros most of the time, but
> I defend his right to do what he's doing.
>
> > ii) Should one's money itself be determined on the exclusive basis of
> > features which often have little "natural" or social utility and
> > mostly perpetuate themselves through vicious circles and probably
> > outdated civilisational paradigms?
>
> I don't think this is the case, at least most of the time. Can you
> give more examples of what you're thinking here? The most important
> feature of a person who gains riches in our system is the willingness
> to take risk. Risk is central to our capitalistic system.
>
> > iii) Should self-referential interests of a globalist financial system
> > be allowed to expropriate popular sovereignties and induce stagnation
> > and loss of cultural/political pluralism and diversity ? la Brave New
> > World?
>
> The brilliance of the founding fathers was in realizing the necessity
> of a balance of powers in maintaining a working system. The balance of
> power between government, corporations and the press (among others) is
> just as important to our system as the balance between the judicial,
> legislative and executive branches.
>
> It is hard to argue that corporations are currently more powerful than
> the government... but I think you can argue that the people have less
> power than ever, and this had led to both the Tea Party and the Occupy
> Wall street movement (to the extent that each is not astroturfed.) The
> people are trying to get their power back from both. The Tea Party
> from the government, and the Occupy Wall street from corporations.
> Both have a point, to be sure.
>
> The question would seem to be how to give the people their part of power.
>
> > My responses:
> > i) Capitalism does not set moral/ethical standards in a society.
>
> Yes, that's correct.
>
> > It's an
> > economic system that lets competition determine factors such as what gets
> > produced, who owns the means of production, and what price is set for
> goods,
> > services, labor, and resources. It's perfectly acceptable that society
> > determines (even in a Capitalist system) that something other than
> wealth is
> > esteemed.
>
> And it does.
>
> > ii) Capitalism rewards producers with resources for supplying products or
> > services that are demanded by consumers. If you think the consumers are
> > wrong in their choices, then you can try to persuade them to spend their
> > capital in other ways, short of coercing them.
>
> Or you could coerce them. The government often does, in fact. When it
> goes into Gibson Guitar and takes away all their rare woods, it is
> limiting consumer choice. (Whether you agree or not with this specific
> case.) When it artificially props up solar companies, it is doing the
> same. It does that sort of thing ALL THE TIME. In fact, I would argue
> that the government is the prime source of coercion in our society.
>
> > iii) Why do we let politicians sell their votes and provide some groups
> with
> > benefits at the expense of others? We could easily throw them out of
> power,
> > but the fact is that most people are too lazy or insecure to really
> change
> > the status quo.
>
> Or ignorant...
>
> > What I find admirable about #OWS is their contempt for
> > corrupt politicians and the lobbyists/Corporatocracy that pays them off
> for
> > such benefits. If we limited the power of politicians (went to a
> government
> > either controlled directly by the Citizens through referendums, or simply
> > limited the scope of what government could do to defense, police and
> courts,
> > then the politicians would have no ability to hand out favors, and
> > corruption would virtually cease.
>
> If OWS had a cogent alternative to the current system, that would make
> them more credible. The tea party is simple, they want lower taxes.
> The OWS is more complex, as some of them want communism, some the
> return to a hunter-gatherer society... it's very confusing to a casual
> observer.
>
> -Kelly
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike66 at att.net  Sat Nov 12 20:45:05 2011
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 12:45:05 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Capitalism, anti capitalism, emotional arousal
In-Reply-To: <CAL+RtPcc4iZCcOjCk7T5GQZXd1+xTrtdzOc5C4+8Ay9ELLL6NA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BF7498ED-47C3-4434-B841-95AF22F61F8F@alumni.Virginia.edu>	<CAPoR7a5YXDGmfYzZS1ERLxqw8v26iqcdSoByU6d+cZhEpQoJHg@mail.gmail.com>	<CA+LBAbS4EPozxcm5LuX6Avm6gPz0=zsjoQOAWLE8ViA=M+su7A@mail.gmail.com>	<CAPy8RwYb2+4w5werWHme-t03-cq2LEuTG_bNj_3gSHjM4ypePA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAL+RtPcc4iZCcOjCk7T5GQZXd1+xTrtdzOc5C4+8Ay9ELLL6NA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <02cc01cca17b$f5b3c370$e11b4a50$@att.net>

 

 

>. On Behalf Of Giovanni Santostasi
Subject: Re: [ExI] Capitalism, anti capitalism, emotional arousal

 

>.Why people think OWS has to do with going back to hunter-gatherer society
or communism? Giovanni

 

 

Because so many of the participants appear to engage in hunting for drugs
and gathering other people's personal property?

 

spike 

 

 

 

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From gsantostasi at gmail.com  Sat Nov 12 21:05:37 2011
From: gsantostasi at gmail.com (Giovanni Santostasi)
Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 15:05:37 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Capitalism, anti capitalism, emotional arousal
In-Reply-To: <02cc01cca17b$f5b3c370$e11b4a50$@att.net>
References: <BF7498ED-47C3-4434-B841-95AF22F61F8F@alumni.Virginia.edu>
	<CAPoR7a5YXDGmfYzZS1ERLxqw8v26iqcdSoByU6d+cZhEpQoJHg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+LBAbS4EPozxcm5LuX6Avm6gPz0=zsjoQOAWLE8ViA=M+su7A@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPy8RwYb2+4w5werWHme-t03-cq2LEuTG_bNj_3gSHjM4ypePA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAL+RtPcc4iZCcOjCk7T5GQZXd1+xTrtdzOc5C4+8Ay9ELLL6NA@mail.gmail.com>
	<02cc01cca17b$f5b3c370$e11b4a50$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAL+RtPcQWqCX0gDYZ5rkK9om36ixLwLpG3i0Qg-gZwwDQVGtJA@mail.gmail.com>

Because so many of the participants appear to engage in hunting for drugs
and gathering other people?s personal property?****

** **

spike


I think it is unfair to characterize the movement because of these
individuals (that are likely a minority). Unfortunately there are many
young people that do drugs and also this kind of social events attract a
lot of people that are into drugs and other dysfunctional ways to deal with
stress and the difficulties of life. But OWS cannot be reduced to a bunch
of hippies and rastafarians. I expect better from this group.
Giovanni



2011/11/12 spike <spike66 at att.net>

> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> *>?* *On Behalf Of *Giovanni Santostasi
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Capitalism, anti capitalism, emotional arousal****
>
> ** **
>
> >?Why people think OWS has to do with going back to hunter-gatherer
> society or communism? Giovanni****
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> Because so many of the participants appear to engage in hunting for drugs
> and gathering other people?s personal property?****
>
> ** **
>
> spike ****
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From gsantostasi at gmail.com  Sat Nov 12 21:08:34 2011
From: gsantostasi at gmail.com (Giovanni Santostasi)
Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 15:08:34 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Rossi's e-cat new webpage
Message-ID: <CAL+RtPd9AL4pBszZUb9i2sTwTtueaJMxbBmisqFcoUviJRun-Q@mail.gmail.com>

> Have you guys seen this new web page by Andrea Rossi himself, created on
>> 11-11-11, lol ?
>>
>
Any thoughts? It seems to me that we are dealing more and more with a scam.

http://www.leonardo-ecat.com/fp/Products/5kW_Heater/index.html

Giovanni
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From alfio.puglisi at gmail.com  Sat Nov 12 21:34:48 2011
From: alfio.puglisi at gmail.com (Alfio Puglisi)
Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 22:34:48 +0100
Subject: [ExI] OWS Rolling in the Mud
In-Reply-To: <CAPy8RwYusNNm+wPrZ4wo7rV9LBgvK1Gvgj=ge7AMAKh+Dg9brA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEUzo3KZhNh7x+dLXxYm9eBqAj10hQJXkdajLpG9kqGa0LsC8A@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAJUeD7hJm-p6T+65Ea2J1mnCfN4MuYmhhXdPmD4rtm1VojvVKg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPy8RwYusNNm+wPrZ4wo7rV9LBgvK1Gvgj=ge7AMAKh+Dg9brA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJUeD7iFVMOQphxk=PsT5Zv7CqX3KU2JY+T0YG+kTHk0ZboWvA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Nov 12, 2011 at 8:57 PM, Kelly Anderson <kellycoinguy at gmail.com>wrote:

> 2011/11/12 Alfio Puglisi <alfio.puglisi at gmail.com>:
> > There is something that puzzles me, if no nation on Earth practices pure
> > capitalism (and this is obviously true), but instead "some awful hybrid"
> how
> > can the production of all those goods be ascribed to capitalism and not
> to
> > something else? How is the partition done, if possible at all?
>
> Alfio,
>
>  The government itself produces very little. Oh, it does produce a
> few things... security, a level of safety, environmental protection,
> law enforcement, fire protection, roads, infrastructure, and a
> relative pittance of research results. But by and large the government
> "taxes" the productive not just in money, but also in regulation.
>
>  If the government costs 15% of the economy... and produces less than
> 1% to 2% of the goods and services, then the portion of the economy
> that operates within the context of some freedom must be responsible
> for the rest. So I think it is quite fair to ascribe most of the
> available goods and services that are available to us today to the
> free capitalistic portions of our economy that remain. At the very
> least, you must admit that for every dollar spent by the free portion
> of the economy, we get more than for every dollar spent by the
> government.


I had a somewhat different angle in mind.  In an industrial context, a free
market will optimize the production of goods that satisfy the current or
projected demand. In our real world, demand is not just the product
of unadulterated human desires, but is also the result of regulations,
social norms, politics, exchange treaties, and so on. Such regulations and
limitations will define the shapes of available markets, that capitalistic
mechanisms will proceed to exploit. The trajectory of development is as
much a product of the social and regulatory context, as it is the result of
the increased efficiency brought around by markets.

Over this relatively simple scheme, the biggest layer of confusion is a
result of the multiple nature of power: while governing bodies have the
theoretical power of the law at their backs, the wealthy individuals or
corporations produced by markets have the practical power of simply having
lots of money, which is in the end a claim on labor from someone else, and
can thus control their behavior (of the 'someone else', which includes
lawmakers)  as much as the first group. This interdipendency arises quite
naturally from the way the system is set up, and I am not sure of how to
proceed from this point :-)

Alfio
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From spike66 at att.net  Sat Nov 12 21:48:29 2011
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 13:48:29 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Capitalism, anti capitalism, emotional arousal
In-Reply-To: <CAL+RtPcQWqCX0gDYZ5rkK9om36ixLwLpG3i0Qg-gZwwDQVGtJA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BF7498ED-47C3-4434-B841-95AF22F61F8F@alumni.Virginia.edu>	<CAPoR7a5YXDGmfYzZS1ERLxqw8v26iqcdSoByU6d+cZhEpQoJHg@mail.gmail.com>	<CA+LBAbS4EPozxcm5LuX6Avm6gPz0=zsjoQOAWLE8ViA=M+su7A@mail.gmail.com>	<CAPy8RwYb2+4w5werWHme-t03-cq2LEuTG_bNj_3gSHjM4ypePA@mail.gmail.com>	<CAL+RtPcc4iZCcOjCk7T5GQZXd1+xTrtdzOc5C4+8Ay9ELLL6NA@mail.gmail.com>	<02cc01cca17b$f5b3c370$e11b4a50$@att.net>
	<CAL+RtPcQWqCX0gDYZ5rkK9om36ixLwLpG3i0Qg-gZwwDQVGtJA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <02ec01cca184$d1631b70$74295250$@att.net>

 

 

>. On Behalf Of Giovanni Santostasi
Subject: Re: [ExI] Capitalism, anti capitalism, emotional arousal

 

>>.Because so many of the participants appear to engage in hunting for drugs
and gathering other people's personal property?  spike

 

 

>.I think it is unfair to characterize the movement because of these
individuals (that are likely a minority). Unfortunately there are many young
people that do drugs and also this kind of social events attract a lot of
people that are into drugs and other dysfunctional ways to deal with stress
and the difficulties of life. But OWS cannot be reduced to a bunch of
hippies and rastafarians. I expect better from this group.

Giovanni

 

 

 

Giovanni, the OWS movement is inherently a target for that element of
society.  Compare for instance any video of any Occupy gathering anywhere,
then compare with video from any Tea Party gathering anywhere.  What do you
find most striking?

 

I will freely grant that the OWS movement has those among them who really
are just the homeless and crazy, but the underlying premise seems to attract
these.  I never recall seeing them at the Tea Party functions.  But the OWS
movement must face the fact that the premises under which it formed will
naturally result in cognitive dissonance.

 

For instance, is it not easily foreseen that camping in a park displaces the
local feral humans who have been camping there for some time?  If the feral
humans put away their "Will Work For Food" signs and make "Support Occupy
Wall Street" signs, then pocket the money, is that not perfectly legitimate?
Or at least as legitimate as their absurd claim that they will work for
food?  And if the OWS people either fight the cops or barricade them out, is
it not easily foreseen that the cops will go around town, round up all the
homeless crazies and take them over to Zuccotti?  

 

Consider: Youtube video shows a protester, Rocky Iskender, delivering a well
deserved thrashing to a crazy homeless guy:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJ-T-I2ZZgE

 

Then afterwards, OWS security, in the yellow vest with the + sign, hauls the
deranged screamer away, again perfectly legitimately so it would seem.
However, if you watch, the OWS protester threw the first punch (the water
bottle), and certainly the best one.  The homeless screamer did not actually
commit assault other than audio.  So legally, both Rocky Iskender and the
unidentified OWS security guard could be charged with assault!  The evidence
is as abundant as anything that ever makes it to court.  

 

Cops know they can't punch out the crazy homeless guy.  But the OWS people
are not cops, nor are the OWS makeshift security team.

 

So the OWS people are already mired in self-contradiction.

 

Another example: a highly regarded black civil rights guy, congressman John
Lewis, is pointedly refused the opportunity to speak at the Occupy Atlanta
gathering.  A white guy is the one speaking and organizing the vote to
disallow Lewis.  They spend several minutes deciding they will not allow
Rep. Lewis a few minutes to speak:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3QZlp3eGMNI

 

Contrast, the October 2010 Tea Party rally, in which the keynote speaker was
a minority, and a strong defender of civil rights.  In fact, as I recall,
nearly all the speakers that day were minorities:

 

http://sanramon.patch.com/articles/conservative-talk-at-tea-party-rally-in-p
leasanton

 

Ironically, the movement which repeatedly demonstrates that it is not racist
is repeatedly attacked for being racist, while the movement which
demonstrated on video available to the whole world that it is clearly racist
is said to stand against racism.

 

Gio, I recognize the actions of the few do not represent the views of the
many, but notice the vote at Occupy Atlanta.  Apparently the views of the
many Tea Partiers is to include, to welcome minorities, and the views of the
many OWSers is apparently racist.

 

Do the OWSers get a free pass?  Why?  Had we *ever* seen such a shameful
thing at a Tea Party rally, would we too get a free pass?  Why not?

 

spike

 

 

 

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From gsantostasi at gmail.com  Sat Nov 12 22:06:01 2011
From: gsantostasi at gmail.com (Giovanni Santostasi)
Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 16:06:01 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Capitalism, anti capitalism, emotional arousal
In-Reply-To: <02ec01cca184$d1631b70$74295250$@att.net>
References: <BF7498ED-47C3-4434-B841-95AF22F61F8F@alumni.Virginia.edu>
	<CAPoR7a5YXDGmfYzZS1ERLxqw8v26iqcdSoByU6d+cZhEpQoJHg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+LBAbS4EPozxcm5LuX6Avm6gPz0=zsjoQOAWLE8ViA=M+su7A@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPy8RwYb2+4w5werWHme-t03-cq2LEuTG_bNj_3gSHjM4ypePA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAL+RtPcc4iZCcOjCk7T5GQZXd1+xTrtdzOc5C4+8Ay9ELLL6NA@mail.gmail.com>
	<02cc01cca17b$f5b3c370$e11b4a50$@att.net>
	<CAL+RtPcQWqCX0gDYZ5rkK9om36ixLwLpG3i0Qg-gZwwDQVGtJA@mail.gmail.com>
	<02ec01cca184$d1631b70$74295250$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAL+RtPcei1rCVFUQ1cvEsb-dmoqaA6y1h_VqXD+cXL2=_2D4Hg@mail.gmail.com>

Spike,
Thank you to take the time to illustrate all your well argued points. I was
not aware of all these issues. I can see your point.
But again this is as you said something the OWS movement has to deal with
and be able to address than something that defines the movement.

I can see how this movement is more an expression of an underlying desire
for change and creating a better society.
The movement itself will not bring necessarily the change but I'm
sympathetic to it because I wish that this energy, this desire for change,
this dream of a better world could be tapped for real world changing
activities.

I just feel that our transhumanist dreams have a lot of common themes with
what these young people desire. Maybe not in the details but for sure in
general spirit.
The tea party is also moved by frustration and discontent but I find it too
misguided and ignorant to be something to feel sympathetic towards.

Giovanni





2011/11/12 spike <spike66 at att.net>

> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> *>?* *On Behalf Of *Giovanni Santostasi
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Capitalism, anti capitalism, emotional arousal****
>
> ** **
>
> >>?Because so many of the participants appear to engage in hunting for
> drugs and gathering other people?s personal property?  spike****
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> >?I think it is unfair to characterize the movement because of these
> individuals (that are likely a minority). Unfortunately there are many
> young people that do drugs and also this kind of social events attract a
> lot of people that are into drugs and other dysfunctional ways to deal with
> stress and the difficulties of life. But OWS cannot be reduced to a bunch
> of hippies and rastafarians. I expect better from this group.****
>
> Giovanni****
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> Giovanni, the OWS movement is inherently a target for that element of
> society.  Compare for instance any video of any Occupy gathering anywhere,
> then compare with video from any Tea Party gathering anywhere.  What do you
> find most striking?****
>
> ** **
>
> I will freely grant that the OWS movement has those among them who really
> are just the homeless and crazy, but the underlying premise seems to
> attract these.  I never recall seeing them at the Tea Party functions.  But
> the OWS movement must face the fact that the premises under which it formed
> will naturally result in cognitive dissonance.****
>
> ** **
>
> For instance, is it not easily foreseen that camping in a park displaces
> the local feral humans who have been camping there for some time?  If the
> feral humans put away their ?Will Work For Food? signs and make ?Support
> Occupy Wall Street? signs, then pocket the money, is that not perfectly
> legitimate?  Or at least as legitimate as their absurd claim that they will
> work for food?  And if the OWS people either fight the cops or barricade
> them out, is it not easily foreseen that the cops will go around town,
> round up all the homeless crazies and take them over to Zuccotti?  ****
>
> ** **
>
> Consider: Youtube video shows a protester, Rocky Iskender, delivering a
> well deserved thrashing to a crazy homeless guy:****
>
> ** **
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJ-T-I2ZZgE****
>
> ** **
>
> Then afterwards, OWS security, in the yellow vest with the + sign, hauls
> the deranged screamer away, again perfectly legitimately so it would seem.
> However, if you watch, the OWS protester threw the first punch (the water
> bottle), and certainly the best one.  The homeless screamer did not
> actually commit assault other than audio.  So legally, both Rocky Iskender
> and the unidentified OWS security guard could be charged with assault!  The
> evidence is as abundant as anything that ever makes it to court.  ****
>
> ** **
>
> Cops know they can?t punch out the crazy homeless guy.  But the OWS people
> are not cops, nor are the OWS makeshift security team.****
>
> ** **
>
> So the OWS people are already mired in self-contradiction.****
>
> ** **
>
> Another example: a highly regarded black civil rights guy, congressman
> John Lewis, is pointedly refused the opportunity to speak at the Occupy
> Atlanta gathering.  A white guy is the one speaking and organizing the vote
> to disallow Lewis.  They spend several minutes deciding they will not allow
> Rep. Lewis a few minutes to speak:****
>
> ** **
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3QZlp3eGMNI****
>
> ** **
>
> Contrast, the October 2010 Tea Party rally, in which the keynote speaker
> was a minority, and a strong defender of civil rights.  In fact, as I
> recall, nearly all the speakers that day were minorities:****
>
> ** **
>
>
> http://sanramon.patch.com/articles/conservative-talk-at-tea-party-rally-in-pleasanton
> ****
>
> ** **
>
> Ironically, the movement which repeatedly demonstrates that it is not
> racist is repeatedly attacked for being racist, while the movement which
> demonstrated on video available to the whole world that it is clearly
> racist is said to stand against racism.****
>
> ** **
>
> Gio, I recognize the actions of the few do not represent the views of the
> many, but notice the vote at Occupy Atlanta.  Apparently the views of the
> many Tea Partiers is to include, to welcome minorities, and the views of
> the many OWSers is apparently racist.****
>
> ** **
>
> Do the OWSers get a free pass?  Why?  Had we **ever** seen such a
> shameful thing at a Tea Party rally, would we too get a free pass?  Why not?
> ****
>
> ** **
>
> spike****
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From gsantostasi at gmail.com  Sat Nov 12 22:14:53 2011
From: gsantostasi at gmail.com (Giovanni Santostasi)
Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 16:14:53 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Capitalism, anti capitalism, emotional arousal
In-Reply-To: <02ec01cca184$d1631b70$74295250$@att.net>
References: <BF7498ED-47C3-4434-B841-95AF22F61F8F@alumni.Virginia.edu>
	<CAPoR7a5YXDGmfYzZS1ERLxqw8v26iqcdSoByU6d+cZhEpQoJHg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+LBAbS4EPozxcm5LuX6Avm6gPz0=zsjoQOAWLE8ViA=M+su7A@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPy8RwYb2+4w5werWHme-t03-cq2LEuTG_bNj_3gSHjM4ypePA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAL+RtPcc4iZCcOjCk7T5GQZXd1+xTrtdzOc5C4+8Ay9ELLL6NA@mail.gmail.com>
	<02cc01cca17b$f5b3c370$e11b4a50$@att.net>
	<CAL+RtPcQWqCX0gDYZ5rkK9om36ixLwLpG3i0Qg-gZwwDQVGtJA@mail.gmail.com>
	<02ec01cca184$d1631b70$74295250$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAL+RtPeFz2+G0JTHwoC+agUxQAwhaE5zSV5dbwGRGrXh6kDiqA@mail.gmail.com>

Yeah the chanting and repeating what anybody says like in church or like
everybody was part of the worst example of a cyborg collective was not cool
at all.
But maybe it is part of people experimenting with different ways of
creating society.
It is going to be silly and strange at times.
Giovanni


2011/11/12 spike <spike66 at att.net>

> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> *>?* *On Behalf Of *Giovanni Santostasi
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Capitalism, anti capitalism, emotional arousal****
>
> ** **
>
> >>?Because so many of the participants appear to engage in hunting for
> drugs and gathering other people?s personal property?  spike****
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> >?I think it is unfair to characterize the movement because of these
> individuals (that are likely a minority). Unfortunately there are many
> young people that do drugs and also this kind of social events attract a
> lot of people that are into drugs and other dysfunctional ways to deal with
> stress and the difficulties of life. But OWS cannot be reduced to a bunch
> of hippies and rastafarians. I expect better from this group.****
>
> Giovanni****
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> Giovanni, the OWS movement is inherently a target for that element of
> society.  Compare for instance any video of any Occupy gathering anywhere,
> then compare with video from any Tea Party gathering anywhere.  What do you
> find most striking?****
>
> ** **
>
> I will freely grant that the OWS movement has those among them who really
> are just the homeless and crazy, but the underlying premise seems to
> attract these.  I never recall seeing them at the Tea Party functions.  But
> the OWS movement must face the fact that the premises under which it formed
> will naturally result in cognitive dissonance.****
>
> ** **
>
> For instance, is it not easily foreseen that camping in a park displaces
> the local feral humans who have been camping there for some time?  If the
> feral humans put away their ?Will Work For Food? signs and make ?Support
> Occupy Wall Street? signs, then pocket the money, is that not perfectly
> legitimate?  Or at least as legitimate as their absurd claim that they will
> work for food?  And if the OWS people either fight the cops or barricade
> them out, is it not easily foreseen that the cops will go around town,
> round up all the homeless crazies and take them over to Zuccotti?  ****
>
> ** **
>
> Consider: Youtube video shows a protester, Rocky Iskender, delivering a
> well deserved thrashing to a crazy homeless guy:****
>
> ** **
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJ-T-I2ZZgE****
>
> ** **
>
> Then afterwards, OWS security, in the yellow vest with the + sign, hauls
> the deranged screamer away, again perfectly legitimately so it would seem.
> However, if you watch, the OWS protester threw the first punch (the water
> bottle), and certainly the best one.  The homeless screamer did not
> actually commit assault other than audio.  So legally, both Rocky Iskender
> and the unidentified OWS security guard could be charged with assault!  The
> evidence is as abundant as anything that ever makes it to court.  ****
>
> ** **
>
> Cops know they can?t punch out the crazy homeless guy.  But the OWS people
> are not cops, nor are the OWS makeshift security team.****
>
> ** **
>
> So the OWS people are already mired in self-contradiction.****
>
> ** **
>
> Another example: a highly regarded black civil rights guy, congressman
> John Lewis, is pointedly refused the opportunity to speak at the Occupy
> Atlanta gathering.  A white guy is the one speaking and organizing the vote
> to disallow Lewis.  They spend several minutes deciding they will not allow
> Rep. Lewis a few minutes to speak:****
>
> ** **
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3QZlp3eGMNI****
>
> ** **
>
> Contrast, the October 2010 Tea Party rally, in which the keynote speaker
> was a minority, and a strong defender of civil rights.  In fact, as I
> recall, nearly all the speakers that day were minorities:****
>
> ** **
>
>
> http://sanramon.patch.com/articles/conservative-talk-at-tea-party-rally-in-pleasanton
> ****
>
> ** **
>
> Ironically, the movement which repeatedly demonstrates that it is not
> racist is repeatedly attacked for being racist, while the movement which
> demonstrated on video available to the whole world that it is clearly
> racist is said to stand against racism.****
>
> ** **
>
> Gio, I recognize the actions of the few do not represent the views of the
> many, but notice the vote at Occupy Atlanta.  Apparently the views of the
> many Tea Partiers is to include, to welcome minorities, and the views of
> the many OWSers is apparently racist.****
>
> ** **
>
> Do the OWSers get a free pass?  Why?  Had we **ever** seen such a
> shameful thing at a Tea Party rally, would we too get a free pass?  Why not?
> ****
>
> ** **
>
> spike****
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
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>
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From gsantostasi at gmail.com  Sat Nov 12 22:22:04 2011
From: gsantostasi at gmail.com (Giovanni Santostasi)
Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 16:22:04 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Capitalism, anti capitalism, emotional arousal
In-Reply-To: <CAL+RtPeFz2+G0JTHwoC+agUxQAwhaE5zSV5dbwGRGrXh6kDiqA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BF7498ED-47C3-4434-B841-95AF22F61F8F@alumni.Virginia.edu>
	<CAPoR7a5YXDGmfYzZS1ERLxqw8v26iqcdSoByU6d+cZhEpQoJHg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+LBAbS4EPozxcm5LuX6Avm6gPz0=zsjoQOAWLE8ViA=M+su7A@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPy8RwYb2+4w5werWHme-t03-cq2LEuTG_bNj_3gSHjM4ypePA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAL+RtPcc4iZCcOjCk7T5GQZXd1+xTrtdzOc5C4+8Ay9ELLL6NA@mail.gmail.com>
	<02cc01cca17b$f5b3c370$e11b4a50$@att.net>
	<CAL+RtPcQWqCX0gDYZ5rkK9om36ixLwLpG3i0Qg-gZwwDQVGtJA@mail.gmail.com>
	<02ec01cca184$d1631b70$74295250$@att.net>
	<CAL+RtPeFz2+G0JTHwoC+agUxQAwhaE5zSV5dbwGRGrXh6kDiqA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL+RtPd=gDv-DZsr2uDR=k7gRQ69GZEK9q6HDWVv+Q0EJRVRbA@mail.gmail.com>

But I don't think not letting Lewis talk had anything to do with racism.
It was about some silly idealistic principle that nobody is better than
anybody else so he should not given special time to make a speech. That is
silly and it shows how exaggerated idealism can be used to manipulate
people bevavior in "mind mobbing".
The manipulation was not even based on bad intentions but the final result
was still absurd.
I take it though as social experimentation.
Interesting video though.
Giovanni



On Sat, Nov 12, 2011 at 4:14 PM, Giovanni Santostasi
<gsantostasi at gmail.com>wrote:

> Yeah the chanting and repeating what anybody says like in church or like
> everybody was part of the worst example of a cyborg collective was not cool
> at all.
> But maybe it is part of people experimenting with different ways of
> creating society.
> It is going to be silly and strange at times.
> Giovanni
>
>
> 2011/11/12 spike <spike66 at att.net>
>
>> ** **
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> *>?* *On Behalf Of *Giovanni Santostasi
>> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Capitalism, anti capitalism, emotional arousal****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> >>?Because so many of the participants appear to engage in hunting for
>> drugs and gathering other people?s personal property?  spike****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> >?I think it is unfair to characterize the movement because of these
>> individuals (that are likely a minority). Unfortunately there are many
>> young people that do drugs and also this kind of social events attract a
>> lot of people that are into drugs and other dysfunctional ways to deal with
>> stress and the difficulties of life. But OWS cannot be reduced to a bunch
>> of hippies and rastafarians. I expect better from this group.****
>>
>> Giovanni****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> Giovanni, the OWS movement is inherently a target for that element of
>> society.  Compare for instance any video of any Occupy gathering anywhere,
>> then compare with video from any Tea Party gathering anywhere.  What do you
>> find most striking?****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> I will freely grant that the OWS movement has those among them who really
>> are just the homeless and crazy, but the underlying premise seems to
>> attract these.  I never recall seeing them at the Tea Party functions.  But
>> the OWS movement must face the fact that the premises under which it formed
>> will naturally result in cognitive dissonance.****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> For instance, is it not easily foreseen that camping in a park displaces
>> the local feral humans who have been camping there for some time?  If the
>> feral humans put away their ?Will Work For Food? signs and make ?Support
>> Occupy Wall Street? signs, then pocket the money, is that not perfectly
>> legitimate?  Or at least as legitimate as their absurd claim that they will
>> work for food?  And if the OWS people either fight the cops or barricade
>> them out, is it not easily foreseen that the cops will go around town,
>> round up all the homeless crazies and take them over to Zuccotti?  ****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> Consider: Youtube video shows a protester, Rocky Iskender, delivering a
>> well deserved thrashing to a crazy homeless guy:****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJ-T-I2ZZgE****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> Then afterwards, OWS security, in the yellow vest with the + sign, hauls
>> the deranged screamer away, again perfectly legitimately so it would seem.
>> However, if you watch, the OWS protester threw the first punch (the water
>> bottle), and certainly the best one.  The homeless screamer did not
>> actually commit assault other than audio.  So legally, both Rocky Iskender
>> and the unidentified OWS security guard could be charged with assault!  The
>> evidence is as abundant as anything that ever makes it to court.  ****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> Cops know they can?t punch out the crazy homeless guy.  But the OWS
>> people are not cops, nor are the OWS makeshift security team.****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> So the OWS people are already mired in self-contradiction.****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> Another example: a highly regarded black civil rights guy, congressman
>> John Lewis, is pointedly refused the opportunity to speak at the Occupy
>> Atlanta gathering.  A white guy is the one speaking and organizing the vote
>> to disallow Lewis.  They spend several minutes deciding they will not allow
>> Rep. Lewis a few minutes to speak:****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3QZlp3eGMNI****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> Contrast, the October 2010 Tea Party rally, in which the keynote speaker
>> was a minority, and a strong defender of civil rights.  In fact, as I
>> recall, nearly all the speakers that day were minorities:****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>>
>> http://sanramon.patch.com/articles/conservative-talk-at-tea-party-rally-in-pleasanton
>> ****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> Ironically, the movement which repeatedly demonstrates that it is not
>> racist is repeatedly attacked for being racist, while the movement which
>> demonstrated on video available to the whole world that it is clearly
>> racist is said to stand against racism.****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> Gio, I recognize the actions of the few do not represent the views of the
>> many, but notice the vote at Occupy Atlanta.  Apparently the views of the
>> many Tea Partiers is to include, to welcome minorities, and the views of
>> the many OWSers is apparently racist.****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> Do the OWSers get a free pass?  Why?  Had we **ever** seen such a
>> shameful thing at a Tea Party rally, would we too get a free pass?  Why not?
>> ****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> spike****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
>>
>
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From bbenzai at yahoo.com  Sat Nov 12 23:20:16 2011
From: bbenzai at yahoo.com (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 15:20:16 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ExI] Best and brightest
In-Reply-To: <mailman.614.1321052087.598.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <1321140016.45514.YahooMailClassic@web114408.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

Kelly Anderson <kellycoinguy at gmail.com> wrote:

...
> you can see the result of the best and brightest of Europe leaving for
> America ...


...

Ben Zaiboc
<raises one eyebrow>



From spike66 at att.net  Sat Nov 12 23:29:08 2011
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 15:29:08 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Capitalism, anti capitalism, emotional arousal
In-Reply-To: <CAL+RtPd=gDv-DZsr2uDR=k7gRQ69GZEK9q6HDWVv+Q0EJRVRbA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BF7498ED-47C3-4434-B841-95AF22F61F8F@alumni.Virginia.edu>	<CAPoR7a5YXDGmfYzZS1ERLxqw8v26iqcdSoByU6d+cZhEpQoJHg@mail.gmail.com>	<CA+LBAbS4EPozxcm5LuX6Avm6gPz0=zsjoQOAWLE8ViA=M+su7A@mail.gmail.com>	<CAPy8RwYb2+4w5werWHme-t03-cq2LEuTG_bNj_3gSHjM4ypePA@mail.gmail.com>	<CAL+RtPcc4iZCcOjCk7T5GQZXd1+xTrtdzOc5C4+8Ay9ELLL6NA@mail.gmail.com>	<02cc01cca17b$f5b3c370$e11b4a50$@att.net>	<CAL+RtPcQWqCX0gDYZ5rkK9om36ixLwLpG3i0Qg-gZwwDQVGtJA@mail.gmail.com>	<02ec01cca184$d1631b70$74295250$@att.net>	<CAL+RtPeFz2+G0JTHwoC+agUxQAwhaE5zSV5dbwGRGrXh6kDiqA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAL+RtPd=gDv-DZsr2uDR=k7gRQ69GZEK9q6HDWVv+Q0EJRVRbA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <032301cca192$e0ad6960$a2083c20$@att.net>

 

 

>. On Behalf Of Giovanni Santostasi
Subject: Re: [ExI] Capitalism, anti capitalism, emotional arousal

 

>.But I don't think not letting Lewis talk had anything to do with racism.

 

Actually I don't either, but that makes my point exactly.  We cut the one
group plenty of slack, and the other, none.  Why?  The media hypocrisy is
stunning.

 

>. The tea party is also moved by frustration and discontent but I find it
too misguided and ignorant to be something to feel sympathetic towards. 

 

{8^D  Misguided and ignorant.  Oh boy.  Giovanni, do let me cordially invite
you to come to the states and attend rallies of both fringe movements.  See
it firsthand, talk to the participants.  Read the signs.  Watch, listen,
talk to a lot of the participants.  Note the astonishing differences, the
stunning fundamental contrast.  The TEA party people know exactly what they
want, it's right in their name, Taxed Enough Already.  At the Tea Party is
plenty of frustration, but you will not find anyone carrying a sign that
says "Shit is fucked up and shit."  (That slogan may be trademarked by an
Occupier.)

 

As a thought experiment, imagine randomly choosing an Occupier and a Tea
partier, then arranging a political debate.  Imagine a game of history
trivia.  Imagine leveling the field a little by having one randomly chosen
Tea Partier vs about four or five randomly chosen Occupiers.  We MIGHT get
an interesting match with those odds.

 

Note the fundamental difference in attitude.

 

Last note on that, since this is my fifth and final post of the day.  The
Tea parties are just good clean fun.  They really are.  The people are calm
and nice, the cops feel comfortable, not worried anyone is going to jump
them or push over their Harley or riot.  The speeches are upbeat and
hopeful.  The four events I attended, everyone seemed to be enjoying
themselves.  A CNN reporter looked like she was mildly terrified and was
ready to jump out of her skin, but I couldn't figure out why.  It seemed
safer than being in the crowd at a football game to me.  People were
treating her with respect, whether she deserved it or not. 

 

At a Tea Party rally, you will not find dazed stoners, you will find no
fistfights, no alcohol or dope, you will see them welcome the cops and treat
them with respect.  You will find no one there who has no idea why they are
there, or where they are exactly.  You will not see thieves working the
crowd.  You will see minorities well represented and welcomed with open
arms.  The Tea party tends to be older, far more well informed than the
general public, more alert, more educated and well read.  A lot of us were
around in both the Carter years and the Reagan years.  You will see respect
for other people's property and for their persons, respect for minorities
and women.  There will be no rapes.  You will hear encouraging speeches,
that this country can be saved, that America is still the land of
opportunity, and see examples of that notion up on the speakers' platform.
You will feel the attitude that America has its problems, but these can be
solved because we are Americans and we solve problems, for we love freedom,
we respect the individual's right to life, liberty and the pursuit of
happiness, and that fundamentally, the American people are good, that
America is good.  Evolution bless these people!

 

spike

 

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From dennislmay at yahoo.com  Sun Nov 13 00:35:24 2011
From: dennislmay at yahoo.com (Dennis May)
Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 16:35:24 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ExI] Best and brightest
In-Reply-To: <1321140016.45514.YahooMailClassic@web114408.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.614.1321052087.598.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<1321140016.45514.YahooMailClassic@web114408.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1321144524.69234.YahooMailNeo@web112114.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

About ten years ago some friends and I had?a few hour conversation
with a girl from Germany who was going to graduate school at the
University of Missouri at Columbia.? The funniest thing that came up
was the difference in how celebrities behave in Europe versus the United
States.? The subject came up because one girl waited on Charlie Sheen
at a Burger King drive through in Nebraska.? After everyone talked about
the celebrities we had all met over the years she was in shock.? She said
the celebrities in Germany don't mix with the people.? We had all met
numerous celebrities.? A very different view in America - it is common
to start out poor and make it big and the classes do mix all the time.
?
Ths scale of things in the US is not well understood.? Her brother talked
about flying to Miami and driving up to Missouri to see her that afternoon.
?
I saw a similar reaction by?Japanese engineers and a German friend years
ago.? They don't seem to get the idea that some US states are as big
as some countries they are used to.
?
Dennis May


________________________________
From: Ben Zaiboc <bbenzai at yahoo.com>
To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
Sent: Saturday, November 12, 2011 5:20 PM
Subject: [ExI] Best and brightest

Kelly Anderson <kellycoinguy at gmail.com> wrote:

...
> you can see the result of the best and brightest of Europe leaving for
> America ...


...

Ben Zaiboc
<raises one eyebrow>

_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Sun Nov 13 02:45:45 2011
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 19:45:45 -0700
Subject: [ExI] I'm trying to track down a particular role-playing game...
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy1u-Wm2ywtu2t2zf5E6e3xj8ijk_NZxsEP4fV74j+cvSw@mail.gmail.com>

I have been trying to remember for quite some time the name of a pen and
paper science fiction role-playing game I purchased back in the eighties,
as a kid.  It was space opera, had well done "space buccaneer" style
artwork, and came as a boxed set.  I remember some cool posters inside
giving very detailed and lengthy timelines of the various galactic
civilizations that had risen and fallen over the centuries/millennia.
There was also a poster that gave a graph showing the development of
technology and such things as "psionic computers."  The game utterly
enthralled me at the time!

I have poured over websites like Noble Knight Games (a major seller of used
rpgs), and even emailed them, but to no avail.  I have also looked at
online rpg encyclopedias with a fine tooth comb, and asked about it on
various online bulletin boards, but with no success so far.

Anyway, I thought I would ask just in case this sounded familiar to someone
on the list, or if anyone had an idea on how to conduct a better search.

Thank you,

John
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From atymes at gmail.com  Sun Nov 13 04:41:55 2011
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 20:41:55 -0800
Subject: [ExI] I'm trying to track down a particular role-playing game...
In-Reply-To: <CAGSKFy1u-Wm2ywtu2t2zf5E6e3xj8ijk_NZxsEP4fV74j+cvSw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGSKFy1u-Wm2ywtu2t2zf5E6e3xj8ijk_NZxsEP4fV74j+cvSw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNRPhqNmDCvOVyq2n+a+gTiofWKA4a6GWz_n5yJByf2L2w@mail.gmail.com>

Was this one of the editions of Traveller?

2011/11/12 John Grigg <possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com>:
> I have been trying to remember for quite some time the name of a pen and
> paper?science fiction?role-playing game I purchased back in the eighties, as
> a kid.? It was space opera, had well done "space buccaneer" style artwork,
> and came as a boxed set.? I remember some cool posters inside giving very
> detailed and lengthy timelines of the various galactic civilizations that
> had risen and fallen over the centuries/millennia.? There was also a poster
> that gave a graph showing the development of technology and such things as
> "psionic computers."? The game utterly enthralled me at the time!
>
> I have poured over websites like Noble Knight Games (a major seller of used
> rpgs), and even emailed them, but to no avail.? I have also looked at online
> rpg encyclopedias with a fine tooth comb, and asked about it on various
> online?bulletin boards,?but with no success so far.
>
> Anyway, I thought I would ask just in case this sounded familiar to someone
> on the list, or if anyone had an idea on how to conduct a better search.
>
> Thank you,
>
> John
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>



From anders at aleph.se  Sun Nov 13 04:48:41 2011
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 04:48:41 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Best and brightest
In-Reply-To: <1321144524.69234.YahooMailNeo@web112114.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.614.1321052087.598.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>	<1321140016.45514.YahooMailClassic@web114408.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<1321144524.69234.YahooMailNeo@web112114.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4EBF4C29.6040302@aleph.se>

Generally Europeans tend to be pretty mobile, even moreso if highly 
educated, while Americans tend to stay put in their country. This also 
leads to a clustering in popular countries like the UK, as well as 
formation of clusters as experts repatriate from periods abroad.

http://www.justlanded.com/english/Common/Footer/Expatriates/Expatriate-statistics-and-characteristics
http://www.parliament.uk/documents/post/postpn309.pdf
http://www.cap-lmu.de/fgz/statistics/brain-drain.php

While the US still has a pretty big draw on highly educated or ambitious 
Europeans, the draw has been noticeably reduced in recent years. Some of 
it is due to changed perceptions, some of it due to harder immigration 
rules.

A highly mobile workforce of best and brightest and a globalized world 
means that they can vote with their feet. If a country doesn't provide 
them with an environment that suits them - politically, economically, 
culturally, whatever - they move. I know at least three or four 
world-class scientists here in Oxford who explicitly say they left the 
US because they can't stand the current political climate. Maybe there 
is an equivalent number over there who were drawn by it, but I doubt it.

If one believes the importance of star scientists in creating successful 
research and technology
http://researchlibartssci.blog.asu.edu/files/2007/10/w13547.pdf
then the above might be cause for serious concern. There are plenty of 
people concerned about it already:
http://www.voanews.com/english/news/economy-and-business/US-Trying-to-Stop-Reverse-Brain-Drain-131899558.html
http://www.soc.duke.edu/globalengineering/pdfs/media/losingtheworlds/nam_usexperiencing.pdf
http://www.economist.com/node/13234953


Dennis May wrote:
>
> The funniest thing that came up
> was the difference in how celebrities behave in Europe versus the United
> States.

Differs quite a lot between cultures. Swedish celebrities and 
politicians mix directly with people. This can probably be more ascribed 
in differences in power distance than any American exceptionalism.


> Ths scale of things in the US is not well understood.  Her brother talked
> about flying to Miami and driving up to Missouri to see her that 
> afternoon.
>  
> I saw a similar reaction by Japanese engineers and a German friend years
> ago.  They don't seem to get the idea that some US states are as big
> as some countries they are used to.

Just as Americans often don't get the historical depth of many parts of 
the world. There is a pub not far from my office that is more than three 
times older than the US. Heck, my university is likely four times older 
[*]. And elements of its function are still affected by events in this 
history, events that are still remembered and referenced. There are very 
foreign cultures just a few centuries back, still very visible and 
sometimes relevant. And yet this is the barely civilized northwestern 
fringe of Europe, while the historical depth is several millennia larger 
in the southeast.


[*] Oxford University, to its embarassment, does not know how old it is.
http://www.ox.ac.uk/about_the_university/introducing_oxford/a_brief_history_of_the_university/index.html
Cambridge University got founded 1209 by scholars fleeing hostile 
townspeople in Oxford, so at least they have a clear founding date. But 
people here of course poke fun at how cowardly they were, while they 
bring up that they still feel unfairly persecuted by Prince John (yeah, 
of Robin Hood fame. He and his brother Richard Lionheart were locals - 
they were born in the same block I lived in for my first few years in 
town...).

-- 
Anders Sandberg,
Future of Humanity Institute 
Oxford Martin School 
Faculty of Philosophy 
Oxford University 



From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Sun Nov 13 05:33:24 2011
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 22:33:24 -0700
Subject: [ExI] I'm trying to track down a particular role-playing game...
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNRPhqNmDCvOVyq2n+a+gTiofWKA4a6GWz_n5yJByf2L2w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGSKFy1u-Wm2ywtu2t2zf5E6e3xj8ijk_NZxsEP4fV74j+cvSw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CALAdGNRPhqNmDCvOVyq2n+a+gTiofWKA4a6GWz_n5yJByf2L2w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy0ZFD2uXGpWT5Ka41pyiTi+OgH2uDpu+avyAGoiYfz8HA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Nov 12, 2011 at 9:41 PM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:

> Was this one of the editions of Traveller?
>
>
No.  It was definitely not Traveller, which I am familiar with and remember
well.


John
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From ddraig at gmail.com  Sun Nov 13 05:22:55 2011
From: ddraig at gmail.com (ddraig)
Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 16:22:55 +1100
Subject: [ExI] Capitalism, anti capitalism, emotional arousal
In-Reply-To: <CA+LBAbSzaWaAJT1UAf+U3LOtrw-g7Kin3=CF2R7xFOOQLNKh+Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BF7498ED-47C3-4434-B841-95AF22F61F8F@alumni.Virginia.edu>
	<CAPoR7a5YXDGmfYzZS1ERLxqw8v26iqcdSoByU6d+cZhEpQoJHg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPy8RwZUV+__qzEKvdK518Fd+WMfF3HamfmacK9cKH+WVo18bQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111110150839.yntsygmgc744cws4@webmail.natasha.cc>
	<CAPy8RwZfyZPRvwoksCy7JcSTPTDDjmb-FewtUM0_ooNsVsM9Aw@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111110164204.a0lp2q6c5ws40wc8@webmail.natasha.cc>
	<CAPoR7a5jCVXjZgcuiPdDRABX0U=OmhPP8g10atUwZeEav2_1rQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAL+RtPe9mHgJE1MWH2v8-fdFs-u2ZQqD=bVPhD80B06MhKYAPQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPoR7a4a=f07Do87Wvp_6F8Wr9uK9_SC9idofeLC+AK=VaZzXA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+LBAbSzaWaAJT1UAf+U3LOtrw-g7Kin3=CF2R7xFOOQLNKh+Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGfkSy0=ou8vCeU3uTKv3CC6jHwaXaAqF59TwfZtSTY6bORkcg@mail.gmail.com>

2011/11/13 James Clement <clementlawyer at gmail.com>:

> Celebrities, teachers, authors, journalists, clergy, politicians, and many
> others have "power," having nothing to do with money, over people. Why would
> you single out the wealthy as the only group whom you'd be uncomfortable
> with having power over people?


Influence is entirely different to power.

Dwayne
-- 
? ddraig at pobox.com irc.bluesphereweb.com #dna
? ? ? ?? ...r.e.t.u.r.n....t.o....t.h.e....s.o.u.r.c.e...
? ? ? ? http://tinyurl.com/he-is-right-you-know-jpg
our aim is wakefulness,? our enemy is dreamless sleep



From ddraig at gmail.com  Sun Nov 13 05:25:41 2011
From: ddraig at gmail.com (ddraig)
Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 16:25:41 +1100
Subject: [ExI] Capitalism, anti capitalism, emotional arousal
In-Reply-To: <CAL+RtPcQWqCX0gDYZ5rkK9om36ixLwLpG3i0Qg-gZwwDQVGtJA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BF7498ED-47C3-4434-B841-95AF22F61F8F@alumni.Virginia.edu>
	<CAPoR7a5YXDGmfYzZS1ERLxqw8v26iqcdSoByU6d+cZhEpQoJHg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+LBAbS4EPozxcm5LuX6Avm6gPz0=zsjoQOAWLE8ViA=M+su7A@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPy8RwYb2+4w5werWHme-t03-cq2LEuTG_bNj_3gSHjM4ypePA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAL+RtPcc4iZCcOjCk7T5GQZXd1+xTrtdzOc5C4+8Ay9ELLL6NA@mail.gmail.com>
	<02cc01cca17b$f5b3c370$e11b4a50$@att.net>
	<CAL+RtPcQWqCX0gDYZ5rkK9om36ixLwLpG3i0Qg-gZwwDQVGtJA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGfkSy18wr+OWa9P2KF9mmxf5U0JG0pinKa=9HuN6h9tTKyDyQ@mail.gmail.com>

2011/11/13 Giovanni Santostasi <gsantostasi at gmail.com>:

> But OWS cannot be reduced to a bunch of
> hippies and rastafarians. I expect better from this group.

You're new?

Dwayne
-- 
? ddraig at pobox.com irc.bluesphereweb.com #dna
? ? ? ?? ...r.e.t.u.r.n....t.o....t.h.e....s.o.u.r.c.e...
? ? ? ? http://tinyurl.com/he-is-right-you-know-jpg
our aim is wakefulness,? our enemy is dreamless sleep



From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Sun Nov 13 07:03:41 2011
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 00:03:41 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Capitalism, anti capitalism, emotional arousal
In-Reply-To: <CAGfkSy18wr+OWa9P2KF9mmxf5U0JG0pinKa=9HuN6h9tTKyDyQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BF7498ED-47C3-4434-B841-95AF22F61F8F@alumni.Virginia.edu>
	<CAPoR7a5YXDGmfYzZS1ERLxqw8v26iqcdSoByU6d+cZhEpQoJHg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+LBAbS4EPozxcm5LuX6Avm6gPz0=zsjoQOAWLE8ViA=M+su7A@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPy8RwYb2+4w5werWHme-t03-cq2LEuTG_bNj_3gSHjM4ypePA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAL+RtPcc4iZCcOjCk7T5GQZXd1+xTrtdzOc5C4+8Ay9ELLL6NA@mail.gmail.com>
	<02cc01cca17b$f5b3c370$e11b4a50$@att.net>
	<CAL+RtPcQWqCX0gDYZ5rkK9om36ixLwLpG3i0Qg-gZwwDQVGtJA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAGfkSy18wr+OWa9P2KF9mmxf5U0JG0pinKa=9HuN6h9tTKyDyQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy1dk9Njxc0bSA8Ywvh5cQ9ds=ryzzxHUbnC_CBCtrzNnQ@mail.gmail.com>

Spike wrote:
Cops know they can?t punch out the crazy homeless guy.  But the OWS people
are not cops, nor are the OWS makeshift security team.
>>>


Spike, only the decent and professional cops would treat the crazy homeless
guy with restraint.  But there are many who are not professional and
law-abiding, as has been proven with the numerous physical assaults on
peaceful OWS protesters.  And even when these cops get their criminal
behavior recorded, they STILL get away with it!  At worst, they get their
hands slapped.  A criminal with a badge is the worst kind...


I hope that the OWS generation can hang onto their passion for a better and
less corrupt world, so that when they are the average age of the Tea Party
folks, they will still want to lawfully agitate for change.  I am on the
whole proud of the OWS folks, because our nation is drenched in apathy and
ignorance that allows the rich and powerful to basically do what they
please in terms of exploitation and rigging the system, thereby enabling
themselves to pillage our nation's financial future.


A day of reckoning will come, as America has to eventually deal with the
ramifications of global warming, an end to cheap oil, insufficient
funding of basic scientific research, massive financial exploitation by the
elites, the hunting of terrorist boogeymen and the weakening of our
personal liberties, wars that go on and on that soak up our national
treasure that so badly needs to be spent elsewhere, and the very
real political, espionage, and military threat of a China that wants to see
us secondary to them in all respects.


I know America has survived hard times in the past to come out the stronger
in the end, but I shudder to think about the probable suffering of so many
as we procrastinate dealing with these extreme challenges.  I dearly hope
my fellow Americans can find common cause and work together successfully to
solve these titanic problems.


John
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From pharos at gmail.com  Sun Nov 13 09:07:03 2011
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 09:07:03 +0000
Subject: [ExI] I'm trying to track down a particular role-playing game...
In-Reply-To: <CAGSKFy1u-Wm2ywtu2t2zf5E6e3xj8ijk_NZxsEP4fV74j+cvSw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGSKFy1u-Wm2ywtu2t2zf5E6e3xj8ijk_NZxsEP4fV74j+cvSw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armiV_Oe+d7p_a4xEzZZ8ziqwgnvXKzQGQrgpA9WTQFdNOA@mail.gmail.com>

2011/11/13 John Grigg wrote:
> I have been trying to remember for quite some time the name of a pen and
> paper?science fiction?role-playing game I purchased back in the eighties, as
> a kid.? It was space opera, had well done "space buccaneer" style artwork,
> and came as a boxed set.? I remember some cool posters inside giving very
> detailed and lengthy timelines of the various galactic civilizations that
> had risen and fallen over the centuries/millennia.? There was also a poster
> that gave a graph showing the development of technology and such things as
> "psionic computers."? The game utterly enthralled me at the time!
>
>

Might be Space Opera.
<http://index.rpg.net/display-entry.phtml?mainid=4012>

But it is probably in this list somewhere..........
<http://spaceship.brainiac.com/spaceboard.html>


BillK



From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Sun Nov 13 09:13:48 2011
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 02:13:48 -0700
Subject: [ExI] I'm trying to track down a particular role-playing game...
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armiV_Oe+d7p_a4xEzZZ8ziqwgnvXKzQGQrgpA9WTQFdNOA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGSKFy1u-Wm2ywtu2t2zf5E6e3xj8ijk_NZxsEP4fV74j+cvSw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAL_armiV_Oe+d7p_a4xEzZZ8ziqwgnvXKzQGQrgpA9WTQFdNOA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy3U-RJFnfV90-zdXhOqoZ4FD3QrKssSScAaEh_OxRfgyw@mail.gmail.com>

 BillK wrote:

> Might be Space Opera.
> <http://index.rpg.net/display-entry.phtml?mainid=4012>
>
> But it is probably in this list somewhere..........
> <http://spaceship.brainiac.com/spaceboard.html>
>


It was not Space Opera, that was a game that I had, and remember well.  The
list is cool, but so little information is given about each game, and there
are no pictures.


John
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From pharos at gmail.com  Sun Nov 13 09:20:46 2011
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 09:20:46 +0000
Subject: [ExI] I'm trying to track down a particular role-playing game...
In-Reply-To: <CAGSKFy3U-RJFnfV90-zdXhOqoZ4FD3QrKssSScAaEh_OxRfgyw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGSKFy1u-Wm2ywtu2t2zf5E6e3xj8ijk_NZxsEP4fV74j+cvSw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAL_armiV_Oe+d7p_a4xEzZZ8ziqwgnvXKzQGQrgpA9WTQFdNOA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAGSKFy3U-RJFnfV90-zdXhOqoZ4FD3QrKssSScAaEh_OxRfgyw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armiunsHorL+=CPHu-ew=dgo6=Ui=e1G4Srpsnh_WTsunEw@mail.gmail.com>

2011/11/13 John Grigg wrote:
> It was not Space Opera, that was a game that I had, and remember well.? The
> list is cool, but so little information is given about each game, and there
> are no pictures.
>
>

Many of the games in the list have pictures of the box cover, but you
have to go through the detailed list, clicking on the games names that
have links.


BillK



From pharos at gmail.com  Sun Nov 13 10:08:05 2011
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 10:08:05 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Morality research
Message-ID: <CAL_armhQFMydgbNiDzMiohRqWFAVTZgO7CbAtaM+ianWyDAQMg@mail.gmail.com>

Yet another survey has revealed surprisingly large numbers of people
using drugs to boost their mental powers. What should be done?

MOST of us want to reach our full potential. We might drink a cup of
coffee to stay alert, or go for a run to feel on top of the job. So
where's the harm in taking a pill that can do the same thing?
<http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn21157-the-dope-on-mental-enhancement.html?full=true>

Quote:
It's not just students who claim to find the drug beneficial. Anders
Sandberg of the Future of Humanity Institute at the University of
Oxford talks openly about using cognitive-enhancing drugs. He is about
to start a study in Germany to compare the effects of a range of
cognitive enhancers, including two hormones ? ghrelin, which promotes
hunger, and oxytocin, which is associated with empathy ? to test their
powers at what he calls "moral enhancement".

"Once we have figured out how morality works as an emotional and
mental system there might be ways of improving it," he told me.
-------------

Wrong way round.   If you find ways of destroying morality then you
will be swamped by people who want to become millionaires in the
finance industry.



BillK



From bbenzai at yahoo.com  Sun Nov 13 10:25:23 2011
From: bbenzai at yahoo.com (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 02:25:23 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ExI] Diet (was:  Capitalism, anti capitalism,
	emotional arousal)
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1321099201.3010.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <1321179923.38061.YahooMailClassic@web114402.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

"spike" <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

>Ja.  Since China went functionally capitalist, Chinese doctors have been
>seeing a rash of obesity and related diseases, a sharp rise in diabetes,
>etc, what they refer to as rich man's syndrome because it is their upper
>class which gets these.  But note that all these things are what kills poor
>people in the US: the puzzling argument is they are too poor to afford a
>proper diet, so they eat cheap high fat foods.  


High-fat diets don't lead to obesity, in most people.  High-sugar ones do.  
Any diet that produces spikes of high blood sugar will lead to fat synthesis and storage, and contribute to insulin insensitivity.  If anything, fat in the diet has a moderating influence on this, partly because it triggers satiety hormones that carbohydrates don't.

The USDA 'fat is bad' orthodoxy is quite possibly what has /caused/ the obesity epidemic in the first place.

If you're overweight (I'm not talking to Spike here, LOL!), try taking a couple of spoonfuls of olive oil between meals for a few weeks, and see what happens.


Ben Zaiboc



From anders at aleph.se  Sun Nov 13 14:08:20 2011
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 14:08:20 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Morality research
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armhQFMydgbNiDzMiohRqWFAVTZgO7CbAtaM+ianWyDAQMg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armhQFMydgbNiDzMiohRqWFAVTZgO7CbAtaM+ianWyDAQMg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4EBFCF54.6090904@aleph.se>

Apropos moral enhancement, these papers might be relevant:
http://www.philosophy.ox.ac.uk/uehiro/moralenhancement2

BillK wrote:
> "Once we have figured out how morality works as an emotional and
> mental system there might be ways of improving it," he told me.
> -------------
>
> Wrong way round.   If you find ways of destroying morality then you
> will be swamped by people who want to become millionaires in the
> finance industry.
>   

Sounds like sheep to be skinned - even if lack of morality was necessary 
for becoming successful, it is not a sufficient condition.

Lack of morality is rarely a benefit: it impairs the ability to work 
well in long-term alliances. There is a reason many of the most ruthless 
regimes and groups in history have strongly emphasized the importance of 
morality (but *their* morality of course, which tends to treat outsiders 
badly). Groups filled with sociopaths and backstabbers disintegrate long 
before they can do anything large-scale. An interesting variation is 
organisations where well-defined formal rules and contracts can take the 
place of morality: here an amoral stance can function without 
necessarily messing up the organisation, at least short term.

The big questionmark about moral enhancement is whether there exist any 
low-hanging fruits that are useful. Just boosting prosociality through 
oxytocin is likely a bad idea, given some evidence that it leads to 
group parochiality. A sociopathy detector on the other hand might really 
clean up some social structures... or lead to problematic witchhunts 
(just because you don't care for other people doesn't mean you have done 
or will do anything wrong). IMHO cognitive enhancement is the best 
approach to moral enhancement, since it has multiple benefits.



-- 
Anders Sandberg,
Future of Humanity Institute 
Oxford Martin School 
Faculty of Philosophy 
Oxford University 



From gsantostasi at gmail.com  Sun Nov 13 15:05:21 2011
From: gsantostasi at gmail.com (Giovanni Santostasi)
Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 09:05:21 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Capitalism, anti capitalism, emotional arousal
In-Reply-To: <CAGfkSy18wr+OWa9P2KF9mmxf5U0JG0pinKa=9HuN6h9tTKyDyQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BF7498ED-47C3-4434-B841-95AF22F61F8F@alumni.Virginia.edu>
	<CAPoR7a5YXDGmfYzZS1ERLxqw8v26iqcdSoByU6d+cZhEpQoJHg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+LBAbS4EPozxcm5LuX6Avm6gPz0=zsjoQOAWLE8ViA=M+su7A@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPy8RwYb2+4w5werWHme-t03-cq2LEuTG_bNj_3gSHjM4ypePA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAL+RtPcc4iZCcOjCk7T5GQZXd1+xTrtdzOc5C4+8Ay9ELLL6NA@mail.gmail.com>
	<02cc01cca17b$f5b3c370$e11b4a50$@att.net>
	<CAL+RtPcQWqCX0gDYZ5rkK9om36ixLwLpG3i0Qg-gZwwDQVGtJA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAGfkSy18wr+OWa9P2KF9mmxf5U0JG0pinKa=9HuN6h9tTKyDyQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL+RtPczdaDVibbpb3ce-ozHcNXx0sUOykuCAv45F9DSxnvREQ@mail.gmail.com>

I have been in this group since a few years.
Not sure if that qualifies me as new or not ; )
Thanks John Grigg to express in a very eloquent way exactly my sentiments
on the matter.
Giovanni

On Sat, Nov 12, 2011 at 11:25 PM, ddraig <ddraig at gmail.com> wrote:

> 2011/11/13 Giovanni Santostasi <gsantostasi at gmail.com>:
>
> > But OWS cannot be reduced to a bunch of
> > hippies and rastafarians. I expect better from this group.
>
> You're new?
>
> Dwayne
> --
>   ddraig at pobox.com irc.bluesphereweb.com #dna
>          ...r.e.t.u.r.n....t.o....t.h.e....s.o.u.r.c.e...
>         http://tinyurl.com/he-is-right-you-know-jpg
> our aim is wakefulness,  our enemy is dreamless sleep
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Sun Nov 13 15:06:19 2011
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 16:06:19 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Money and Human Nature (was Re: Capitalism,
 anti capitalism, emotional arousal)
In-Reply-To: <1321117668.9527.YahooMailNeo@web65613.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <CAPy8RwYcPYP-DGuqTkFmHpfCPQFqE==warBZw+TS3wjXUY1c9Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPoR7a4TYgSD=ZLQ_0oczPSAnsVjPnukb8SsP6NOAB=vS4SvXg@mail.gmail.com>
	<1321117668.9527.YahooMailNeo@web65613.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a70TBUjz3s0K=d=uQg54OEGZ7_C08dVDdAS-0_syaRJWg@mail.gmail.com>

On 12 November 2011 18:07, The Avantguardian <avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com>wrote:

> I would never suggest abolishing money altogether. The only way I could
> envisage it even being possible is a giant barter matching database that
> matched sellers to buyers and allowed multilateral trades.The website on
> the Internet would Ebay and Amazon together to shame. Of course I would
> still certainly miss greenbacks.
>

I took the time yesterday night to watch *Money as Debt* parts II and III
on Youtube, and while not much of their content is revolutionary news, most
of it is explained in a very straightforward, concise and constructive way.

There are a few unrequired subtly anti-transhumanistic hints ("limits of
growth", etc.), but besides that I think that the issues debated there may
be much more crucial to our future than the tired and largely outdated
discussion "Adam Smith vs Karl Marx" which may still haunt many of us but
increasingly sounds as the Pope vs the Emperor to most ears.

The entire series is highly recommended, IMHO, including for the (few)
parts that deserve some criticisms, if anything for the effort of thinking
out of the box.

-- 
Stefano Vaj

<http://int.ask.com/web?siteid=10000861&webqsrc=999&l=dis&q=Money%20as%20Debt>
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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Sun Nov 13 15:15:15 2011
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 16:15:15 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Diet (was: Capitalism, anti capitalism, emotional arousal)
In-Reply-To: <1321179923.38061.YahooMailClassic@web114402.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.1.1321099201.3010.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<1321179923.38061.YahooMailClassic@web114402.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a7mVG=zFD1nFgZ9wqHRV399doy5UqPNe2a41R8jECp-6A@mail.gmail.com>

On 13 November 2011 11:25, Ben Zaiboc <bbenzai at yahoo.com> wrote:

> "spike" <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>
> >Ja.  Since China went functionally capitalist, Chinese doctors have been
> >seeing a rash of obesity and related diseases, a sharp rise in diabetes,
> >etc, what they refer to as rich man's syndrome because it is their upper
> >class which gets these.  But note that all these things are what kills
> poor
> >people in the US: the puzzling argument is they are too poor to afford a
> >proper diet, so they eat cheap high fat foods.
>
>
> High-fat diets don't lead to obesity, in most people.  High-sugar ones do.
> Any diet that produces spikes of high blood sugar will lead to fat
> synthesis and storage, and contribute to insulin insensitivity.  If
> anything, fat in the diet has a moderating influence on this, partly
> because it triggers satiety hormones that carbohydrates don't.


Indeed.

However, it may be true that damages to health from post-neolithic diets
are actually limited by (involuntary) caloric restriction.

So, as I suggest in *Biopolitica <http://www.biopolitica.it>*, a way to
distinguish rich countries from poor countries may be that in the former
the poor are fatter than the rich, while in the latter is the opposite.

In this respect, China might find itself in transition...

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From eugen at leitl.org  Sun Nov 13 15:30:44 2011
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 16:30:44 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Best and brightest
In-Reply-To: <1321144524.69234.YahooMailNeo@web112114.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.614.1321052087.598.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<1321140016.45514.YahooMailClassic@web114408.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<1321144524.69234.YahooMailNeo@web112114.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20111113153044.GO31847@leitl.org>

On Sat, Nov 12, 2011 at 04:35:24PM -0800, Dennis May wrote:

> Ths scale of things in the US is not well understood.? Her brother talked
> about flying to Miami and driving up to Missouri to see her that afternoon.
> ?
> I saw a similar reaction by?Japanese engineers and a German friend years
> ago.? They don't seem to get the idea that some US states are as big
> as some countries they are used to.

Strange. Same applies to the scale of space. Most people really have no
feel for the size of our own solar system nevermind the galaxy and
beyond.

I remember when I flew around the solar system on an emulator on
a prototype SGI Indigo, trying to hit the Sun, it's very difficult even at c.
(And then, when I flew into the Sun the simulator dumped core).


From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Sun Nov 13 15:34:54 2011
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 16:34:54 +0100
Subject: [ExI] OWS Rolling in the Mud
In-Reply-To: <CAL+RtPdiecuVWu=n9-Hhqtb1xLzyjGHAwO+9aSnbN6oO-afHUQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEUzo3KZhNh7x+dLXxYm9eBqAj10hQJXkdajLpG9kqGa0LsC8A@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAL+RtPccV2iXtyt=joFBqM20c16r-NikzxFTu396Ksi=xZs5aA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAL+RtPdiecuVWu=n9-Hhqtb1xLzyjGHAwO+9aSnbN6oO-afHUQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a54=veboQWkwn4+YNRFQfK2xLWpFaDkn_1kP5dD9_W=_w@mail.gmail.com>

2011/11/12 Giovanni Santostasi <gsantostasi at gmail.com>

> The super-rich ARE NOT THAT CREATIVE at all. It is a myth, a lie. There
> are very few Steve Jobs over there.
>

I hope not to be blasphemous here, but I consider Steve Job as "creative"
only in a rather limited fashion, unless perhaps in a period when he was
not super-rich at all. Let alone Bill Gates, or Silvio Berlusconi.

As to governments, not even in Maoist China they were supposed to deal with
production themselves.

Governments in a post-neolithic sense were established to make production
possible on a scale unheard of before, be it at the price of taking a few
people out of the economic cycle itself.

--
Stefano Vaj
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From pharos at gmail.com  Sun Nov 13 15:38:33 2011
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 15:38:33 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Morality research
In-Reply-To: <4EBFCF54.6090904@aleph.se>
References: <CAL_armhQFMydgbNiDzMiohRqWFAVTZgO7CbAtaM+ianWyDAQMg@mail.gmail.com>
	<4EBFCF54.6090904@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <CAL_armhtUxi_SrikfQrZKq4gMTM7OiZ_GssGLdFhr+bdDcmqDw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 2:08 PM, Anders Sandberg wrote:
> Sounds like sheep to be skinned - even if lack of morality was necessary for
> becoming successful, it is not a sufficient condition.

True, but it's a start.  ;)


>
> Lack of morality is rarely a benefit: it impairs the ability to work well in
> long-term alliances. There is a reason many of the most ruthless regimes and
> groups in history have strongly emphasized the importance of morality (but
> *their* morality of course, which tends to treat outsiders badly). Groups
> filled with sociopaths and backstabbers disintegrate long before they can do
> anything large-scale. An interesting variation is organisations where
> well-defined formal rules and contracts can take the place of morality: here
> an amoral stance can function without necessarily messing up the
> organisation, at least short term.

If ruthless regimes emphasise 'their' morality which destroys others,
then I am not sure what sort of morality you might seek to enhance and
how you would tell the difference.

Some might say that groups filled with psychopaths have brought the
world economy to its knees, enriching themselves and destroying the
lives of millions. These appear to be quite long-lasting and
successful groups. These might be the groups with rules and contracts
that you mention, but applying these rules requires the suspension of
what most of society would call 'morality'.


>
> The big questionmark about moral enhancement is whether there exist any
> low-hanging fruits that are useful. Just boosting prosociality through
> oxytocin is likely a bad idea, given some evidence that it leads to group
> parochiality. A sociopathy detector on the other hand might really clean up
> some social structures... or lead to problematic witchhunts (just because
> you don't care for other people doesn't mean you have done or will do
> anything wrong). IMHO cognitive enhancement is the best approach to moral
> enhancement, since it has multiple benefits.
>


Cognitive enhancement is a tool that can be used for good or evil.  I
don't know of any basis for claiming that more intelligent people are
generally more moral. How do you ensure that enhanced intelligence is
'Friendly'?


BillK


From giulio at gmail.com  Sun Nov 13 15:22:29 2011
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 16:22:29 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Capitalism, anti capitalism, emotional arousal
In-Reply-To: <CAL+RtPczdaDVibbpb3ce-ozHcNXx0sUOykuCAv45F9DSxnvREQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BF7498ED-47C3-4434-B841-95AF22F61F8F@alumni.Virginia.edu>
	<CAPoR7a5YXDGmfYzZS1ERLxqw8v26iqcdSoByU6d+cZhEpQoJHg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+LBAbS4EPozxcm5LuX6Avm6gPz0=zsjoQOAWLE8ViA=M+su7A@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPy8RwYb2+4w5werWHme-t03-cq2LEuTG_bNj_3gSHjM4ypePA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAL+RtPcc4iZCcOjCk7T5GQZXd1+xTrtdzOc5C4+8Ay9ELLL6NA@mail.gmail.com>
	<02cc01cca17b$f5b3c370$e11b4a50$@att.net>
	<CAL+RtPcQWqCX0gDYZ5rkK9om36ixLwLpG3i0Qg-gZwwDQVGtJA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAGfkSy18wr+OWa9P2KF9mmxf5U0JG0pinKa=9HuN6h9tTKyDyQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAL+RtPczdaDVibbpb3ce-ozHcNXx0sUOykuCAv45F9DSxnvREQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKTCJydyAmdKBqQ6Y=hVnRtZZZG+vT+oC0rN8xXsTqZBd6Avqg@mail.gmail.com>

Re "[Capitalism is] an economic system that lets competition determine
factors such as what gets produced, who owns the means of production,
and what price is set for goods, services, labor, and resources."

Old fairy tale. Today, capitalism is an economic system that does not
allow competition. Those who have enough money to bribe corrupted
politicians and admins into establishing regulations that kill all
potential competition, can buy a de-facto monopoly on all the things
you say. The solution is simple imo. Long life to entrepreneurial,
production-oriented capitalism, but both parasite financial capitalism
and big government must go.


From giulio at gmail.com  Sun Nov 13 15:26:58 2011
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 16:26:58 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Online talk next Sunday: Ken Hayworth on How to create a
 Connectome Observatory of the mouse brain and beyond
In-Reply-To: <CAKTCJyc1B0GL7HfQ1=g5i0cvSBJ+PG40nTAVwWFGpndRQPOyqg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKTCJyc1B0GL7HfQ1=g5i0cvSBJ+PG40nTAVwWFGpndRQPOyqg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKTCJyeE5FsvVUjOXvsh66L327jsw3nmgfFrt1rKkNrC08t62g@mail.gmail.com>

Reminder - Ken's talk is at 10am PST, 1pm EST, 7pm continental EU

On Mon, Nov 7, 2011 at 7:08 PM, Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:
> Ken Hayworth will give an online talk next Sunday Nov. 13 at 10am PST
> in teleXLR8, on How to create a Connectome Observatory of the mouse
> brain and beyond. If you wish to attend:
> - If you have a teleXLR8 account created in 2011, you can just show up.
> - If you have a teleXLR8 account created in 2010, I will need to
> create a new account for you. Please contact me.
> Please read: IMPORTANT ? invitations and logistics
> http://telexlr8.wordpress.com/2011/08/19/important-invitations-and-logistics/
>
> How to create a Connectome Observatory of the mouse brain and beyond
> http://www.kurzweilai.net/how-to-create-a-connectome-observatory-of-the-mouse-brain-and-beyond
>
> Dr. Kenneth Hayworth will present an online talk and Q/A on How to
> create a Connectome Observatory of the mouse brain and beyond on
> Sunday, November 13, at 10am PST.
>
> He will present a plan to map the mouse brain at very high resolution.
>
> The talk will be in teleXLR8, a 3D interactive video conferencing
> space. Please contact the organizers if you wish to attend the talk.
>
> Hayworth is a postdoctoral fellow at Harvard University, a co-founder
> of the Brain Preservation Foundation, and designer of the Automatic
> Tape-Collecting Lathe Ultramicrotome (ATLUM), which could allow
> efficient nanoscale imaging of brain tissues.
>
> ?In 100 years, if we have the technology to bring someone back, it
> won?t be in a biological body,? he said in a New York Times article
> last year. ?It is these scanning techniques and mind-uploading that, I
> think, will bring people back. This is a taboo topic in the scientific
> community. But we have a cure to death right here. Why aren?t we
> pursuing it??
>
> See also:
> Ken Hayworth on How to create a Connectome Observatory of the mouse
> brain and beyond, OpenQwaq, November 13 2011, 10am PST | teleXLR8
> http://telexlr8.wordpress.com/2011/09/24/ken-hayworth-on-how-to-create-a-connectome-observatory-of-the-mouse-brain-and-beyond-openqwaq-november-13-2011-10am-pst/
>



From alfio.puglisi at gmail.com  Sun Nov 13 16:00:16 2011
From: alfio.puglisi at gmail.com (Alfio Puglisi)
Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 17:00:16 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Best and brightest
In-Reply-To: <20111113153044.GO31847@leitl.org>
References: <mailman.614.1321052087.598.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<1321140016.45514.YahooMailClassic@web114408.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<1321144524.69234.YahooMailNeo@web112114.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<20111113153044.GO31847@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <CAJUeD7hJ9yOaS5pdnK7ZRQLb9Mfc2Avx6T7W1LXr8aDrMbR_6g@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 4:30 PM, Eugen Leitl <eugen at leitl.org> wrote:

> On Sat, Nov 12, 2011 at 04:35:24PM -0800, Dennis May wrote:
>
> > Ths scale of things in the US is not well understood.  Her brother talked
> > about flying to Miami and driving up to Missouri to see her that
> afternoon.
> >
> > I saw a similar reaction by Japanese engineers and a German friend years
> > ago.  They don't seem to get the idea that some US states are as big
> > as some countries they are used to.
>
> Strange. Same applies to the scale of space. Most people really have no
> feel for the size of our own solar system nevermind the galaxy and
> beyond.
>
> I remember when I flew around the solar system on an emulator on
> a prototype SGI Indigo, trying to hit the Sun, it's very difficult even at
> c.
> (And then, when I flew into the Sun the simulator dumped core).
>

You can do the same now on any PC using Celestia (
http://www.shatters.net/celestia/ ), an excellent simulator which includes
spaceflight at whatever speed you want (sans doppler effect...)
Just try to fly outside of our local stellar neighborhood , and then come
back home stopping right on Earth. Basically impossible, since at any speed
necessary for meaningful travel our planet will zip by in the blink of an
eye.

Alfio
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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Sun Nov 13 16:04:41 2011
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 17:04:41 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Capitalism, anti capitalism, emotional arousal
In-Reply-To: <CAL+RtPeO2m=eF9LVcY+fgkWMYkw8B=sOB5MpyfRgiYFLKQkPtg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BF7498ED-47C3-4434-B841-95AF22F61F8F@alumni.Virginia.edu>
	<CAPoR7a5YXDGmfYzZS1ERLxqw8v26iqcdSoByU6d+cZhEpQoJHg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPy8RwZUV+__qzEKvdK518Fd+WMfF3HamfmacK9cKH+WVo18bQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111110150839.yntsygmgc744cws4@webmail.natasha.cc>
	<CAPy8RwZfyZPRvwoksCy7JcSTPTDDjmb-FewtUM0_ooNsVsM9Aw@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111110164204.a0lp2q6c5ws40wc8@webmail.natasha.cc>
	<CAPoR7a5jCVXjZgcuiPdDRABX0U=OmhPP8g10atUwZeEav2_1rQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAL+RtPe9mHgJE1MWH2v8-fdFs-u2ZQqD=bVPhD80B06MhKYAPQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPoR7a4a=f07Do87Wvp_6F8Wr9uK9_SC9idofeLC+AK=VaZzXA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAL+RtPeO2m=eF9LVcY+fgkWMYkw8B=sOB5MpyfRgiYFLKQkPtg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a4KY-9BYKvmgc1Aa_bYgef0VzbbA++Qn_XnxFe0dHc4dA@mail.gmail.com>

2011/11/12 Giovanni Santostasi <gsantostasi at gmail.com>

> I give as an example the people in the lab where I work. People put an
> enormous amount of hours but it is not about power at all. Some people put
> the time and hours for power. These people should be not have power at all,
> in fact the greed for power should be a way to select people that should
> not have ever too much power. Power should be given to whom have a deep
> desire to lead by example and to sacrifice themselves for others. And
> people in power should relinquish it after a certain time.


I am not inclined to moralise about personal ambition, or will to power,
and I accept that this be a drive amongst other, and/or a generalisation of
drives only if understood in a very broad sense (including, eg, the quest
for status, technical perfection, fame, peer approval, greatness,
satisfaction of empathic feelings, etc.)

I agree however that maniacal craving for some forms of "power" may well
reflect socially dysfunctional features by the bearer, and that groups
should obviously select commitment to and identification with the group's
success rather than the opposite, if anything because those favouring
free-riders, "individualists" and parasites are ill-fated by definition,
pace Ayn Rand. As our own societies are in the process of demonstrating for
the umpteenth time...

But the real issue, as already discussed, is IMHO whether money, and the
availability thereof, should be the measure of all things, and the only
criterium by which power is allocated in a given society. This is neither a
universal nor an eternal truth, and certainly need not be the case for our
future unless we want it to be the case.

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Sun Nov 13 16:20:14 2011
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 17:20:14 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Capitalism, anti capitalism, emotional arousal
In-Reply-To: <CA+LBAbSzaWaAJT1UAf+U3LOtrw-g7Kin3=CF2R7xFOOQLNKh+Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BF7498ED-47C3-4434-B841-95AF22F61F8F@alumni.Virginia.edu>
	<CAPoR7a5YXDGmfYzZS1ERLxqw8v26iqcdSoByU6d+cZhEpQoJHg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPy8RwZUV+__qzEKvdK518Fd+WMfF3HamfmacK9cKH+WVo18bQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111110150839.yntsygmgc744cws4@webmail.natasha.cc>
	<CAPy8RwZfyZPRvwoksCy7JcSTPTDDjmb-FewtUM0_ooNsVsM9Aw@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111110164204.a0lp2q6c5ws40wc8@webmail.natasha.cc>
	<CAPoR7a5jCVXjZgcuiPdDRABX0U=OmhPP8g10atUwZeEav2_1rQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAL+RtPe9mHgJE1MWH2v8-fdFs-u2ZQqD=bVPhD80B06MhKYAPQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPoR7a4a=f07Do87Wvp_6F8Wr9uK9_SC9idofeLC+AK=VaZzXA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+LBAbSzaWaAJT1UAf+U3LOtrw-g7Kin3=CF2R7xFOOQLNKh+Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a65C3ucLV6PZK-Oefd4z3QzHh07guvYPddu19bo=kt_OQ@mail.gmail.com>

2011/11/12 James Clement <clementlawyer at gmail.com>

> What's wrong with wanting to create a hugely successful company? Are the
> values of some (for time to read, hang out with friends, be entertained,
> etc.) override the values of others to be successful in the business world?
> Do you really think that wanting to have money to keep your business on
> top, start new businesses, invest in other companies that interest you,
> donate to charities/causes you support, etc. are any less desirable than
> the quality of the steaks you eat? If one is "power" then the other is
> "power" too, in which case your analysis is meaningless.
>

I have nothing against power, nor against entrepreneurship. What is in
discussion here is whether the money you have - and which you may well have
simply inherited, especially in societies where social mobility is at an
overall minimum - should be the exclusive measure of what your are worth.

Celebrities, teachers, authors, journalists, clergy, politicians, and many
> others have "power," having nothing to do with money, over people. Why
> would you single out the wealthy as the only group whom you'd be
> uncomfortable with having power over people?
>

Because of course I am not indifferent to the allocation of power, and to
the composition and selection of ruling classes in a given society, and I
have serious doubts on the efficiency of those increasingly dominant in
mine. Why are "capitalists" or libertarians uncomfortable  with a system
where the power is the exclusive prerogative of Communist Party bureaucrats?

In this respect, I suspect that a society where economy dominates over
politics, and where at an economic level vested interests dominate over
collective ones, and where amongst vested interests international
speculators and bankers dominate over industrialists and real
entrepreneurs, and where short-term, myopic mechanisms dominate over
speculators and bankers, may not be really bound to an everlasting success.
I may be wrong, but...

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Sun Nov 13 17:03:02 2011
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 18:03:02 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Capitalism, anti capitalism, emotional arousal
In-Reply-To: <CAPy8RwYBM0yADBZCAc1-uV5+vAGtT1EP7Z8gr8t-O7BQh9BLcA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BF7498ED-47C3-4434-B841-95AF22F61F8F@alumni.Virginia.edu>
	<CAPoR7a5YXDGmfYzZS1ERLxqw8v26iqcdSoByU6d+cZhEpQoJHg@mail.gmail.com>
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	<20111110150839.yntsygmgc744cws4@webmail.natasha.cc>
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	<20111110164204.a0lp2q6c5ws40wc8@webmail.natasha.cc>
	<CAPoR7a5jCVXjZgcuiPdDRABX0U=OmhPP8g10atUwZeEav2_1rQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAL+RtPe9mHgJE1MWH2v8-fdFs-u2ZQqD=bVPhD80B06MhKYAPQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPoR7a4a=f07Do87Wvp_6F8Wr9uK9_SC9idofeLC+AK=VaZzXA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPy8RwYBM0yADBZCAc1-uV5+vAGtT1EP7Z8gr8t-O7BQh9BLcA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a5Ww4UsP7qmt_8uT+SEwpC1hMr4-hgqoYVABv8c5y7gQA@mail.gmail.com>

On 12 November 2011 20:43, Kelly Anderson <kellycoinguy at gmail.com> wrote:

> I don't know that it is always power that motivates billionaires...
> (though with Soros, one could clearly make that argument
> persuasively.) Some that I know personally (Not Soros, I don't know
> him) are motivated by the many people who depend upon their company
> for making a living.
>

Why wouldn't that be "power"?

I suspect that political correctness has imposed on most of us a *1984 *view
of power, where it would practically amount to one's ability to make other
people suffer in the death-throes of some or other unbearable oppression.

This in turn tends to *hide* the reality about that behind humanitarian
platitudes and the trust in blind mechanisms (as long as there is nobody
who decides and can be blamed for wrong decisions, we may well be doomed
but remain at least "morally" happy).

What is the reality? The reality, eg, is that governments used to... govern
in the XIX and XX century much more than they could ever do today, in spite
of over-regulation being much less pervasive than it is today, and were
much more answerable to elections and/or... revolutions. That in the
sixties, most children I knew aspired to be Einstein or Yuri Gagarin or
Barnard, and now would like to be a banker or a broker, something that is
very eloquent as to the respective social status of such roles. That in
Europe increasing resources are constantly being diverted from industry,
education, research towards finance and anything which can improve the
stock exchange results of next week.

Markets, far from being infallible, are nothing else than the sum of the
players therein, and say nothing about how their collective preferences
should be oriented. Accordingly, nothing in even the most radical form of
Libertarianism is a guarantee against collective suicide. At best, markets
may offer the most efficient ways to perform it.

And, yes, especially given that very little actual power remains in
political circles today mostly confined to ceremonial purposes, what is
called for is a cultural revolution, openly aimed at subverting the
dominant values and the increasing inertia of the status quo.

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From sparge at gmail.com  Sun Nov 13 17:07:30 2011
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 12:07:30 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Capitalism, anti capitalism, emotional arousal
In-Reply-To: <CAPoR7a65C3ucLV6PZK-Oefd4z3QzHh07guvYPddu19bo=kt_OQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BF7498ED-47C3-4434-B841-95AF22F61F8F@alumni.Virginia.edu>
	<CAPoR7a5YXDGmfYzZS1ERLxqw8v26iqcdSoByU6d+cZhEpQoJHg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPy8RwZUV+__qzEKvdK518Fd+WMfF3HamfmacK9cKH+WVo18bQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111110150839.yntsygmgc744cws4@webmail.natasha.cc>
	<CAPy8RwZfyZPRvwoksCy7JcSTPTDDjmb-FewtUM0_ooNsVsM9Aw@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111110164204.a0lp2q6c5ws40wc8@webmail.natasha.cc>
	<CAPoR7a5jCVXjZgcuiPdDRABX0U=OmhPP8g10atUwZeEav2_1rQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAL+RtPe9mHgJE1MWH2v8-fdFs-u2ZQqD=bVPhD80B06MhKYAPQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPoR7a4a=f07Do87Wvp_6F8Wr9uK9_SC9idofeLC+AK=VaZzXA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+LBAbSzaWaAJT1UAf+U3LOtrw-g7Kin3=CF2R7xFOOQLNKh+Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPoR7a65C3ucLV6PZK-Oefd4z3QzHh07guvYPddu19bo=kt_OQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2fsqgmAurNqo3QBeeC8LW03F_zM_BX01mQBK8S+2ifV1A@mail.gmail.com>

2011/11/13 Stefano Vaj <stefano.vaj at gmail.com>

> What is in discussion here is whether the money you have - and which you
> may well have simply inherited, especially in societies where social
> mobility is at an overall minimum - should be the exclusive measure of what
> your are worth.


Who's arguing that that is either currently the case or that it should be
the case?

-Dave
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From tara at taramayastales.com  Sun Nov 13 17:09:10 2011
From: tara at taramayastales.com (Tara Maya)
Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 09:09:10 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Money and Human Nature (was Re: Capitalism,
	anti capitalism, emotional arousal)
In-Reply-To: <CAPoR7a70TBUjz3s0K=d=uQg54OEGZ7_C08dVDdAS-0_syaRJWg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPy8RwYcPYP-DGuqTkFmHpfCPQFqE==warBZw+TS3wjXUY1c9Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPoR7a4TYgSD=ZLQ_0oczPSAnsVjPnukb8SsP6NOAB=vS4SvXg@mail.gmail.com>
	<1321117668.9527.YahooMailNeo@web65613.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<CAPoR7a70TBUjz3s0K=d=uQg54OEGZ7_C08dVDdAS-0_syaRJWg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <FDD9AA2D-53E7-415E-AD85-81EC898A8193@taramayastales.com>

> I took the time yesterday night to watch Money as Debt parts II and III on Youtube, and while not much of their content is revolutionary news, most of it is explained in a very straightforward, concise and constructive way.
> 
> There are a few unrequired subtly anti-transhumanistic hints ("limits of growth", etc.), but besides that I think that the issues debated there may be much more crucial to our future than the tired and largely outdated discussion "Adam Smith vs Karl Marx" which may still haunt many of us but increasingly sounds as the Pope vs the Emperor to most ears.
> 

Unfortunately, I don't think the anti-transhumanism is at all accidental or incidental to anti-capitalism. I think anti-capitalism, is, at heart, a revolt against the rise of urban globalism and the literariat's last stand against the digitariat.

Tara Maya

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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Sun Nov 13 17:49:50 2011
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 18:49:50 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Capitalism, anti capitalism, emotional arousal
In-Reply-To: <CAPy8RwYb2+4w5werWHme-t03-cq2LEuTG_bNj_3gSHjM4ypePA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BF7498ED-47C3-4434-B841-95AF22F61F8F@alumni.Virginia.edu>
	<CAPoR7a5YXDGmfYzZS1ERLxqw8v26iqcdSoByU6d+cZhEpQoJHg@mail.gmail.com>
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	<CAPy8RwYb2+4w5werWHme-t03-cq2LEuTG_bNj_3gSHjM4ypePA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a5W+aa==1DPTLBxXzKuQcG4RzwJM0v7uSMF1hm2ZPLw7A@mail.gmail.com>

On 12 November 2011 21:23, Kelly Anderson <kellycoinguy at gmail.com> wrote:

> > Stefano Vaj posts:
> > ii) Should one's money itself be determined on the exclusive basis of
> > features which often have little "natural" or social utility and
> > mostly perpetuate themselves through vicious circles and probably
> > outdated civilisational paradigms?
>
> I don't think this is the case, at least most of the time. Can you
> give more examples of what you're thinking here? The most important
> feature of a person who gains riches in our system is the willingness
> to take risk. Risk is central to our capitalistic system.
>

I suspect this to be a fantasy, at least in statistical terms, if we are
not speaking of King Arthur or of Hern?n Cort?s but of XXI century Europe.
Yes, you may make some money by selling copyright on a video where you are
engaged in some extreme sport, but this is roughly the extent of it.
*Existing wealth* is central to our capitalistic system, meaning that it
exactly allows you to limit considerably personal, and to some extent
financial, risks affecting others. Upward social mobility is very rarely
connected with one's risk propensity, even though downward mobility may
admittedly be a little more.


> > i) Capitalism does not set moral/ethical standards in a society.
> Yes, that's correct.
>

I am much less concerned with ethical standards than with political ones.
And political standards have to do with the ability of societies to
survive, thrive and evolve.

"Ideological capitalism" posits, at least as far as I understand it, that
this should not be any community's (ie, government's) business, since
market mechanisms are going to deliver all that automagically. In other
POVs, on the contrary, capitalism may be just a possible mean, amongst
others and subject to disproval, to an end, in particular in order to spare
the micromanagement efforts involved in total planning; ad in other POVs
again, it has shown by now its inability to deliver all that in the long
term.

Last post for today, I do not want to incur Spike's wrath... :-)

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From spike66 at att.net  Sun Nov 13 18:35:02 2011
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 10:35:02 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Capitalism, anti capitalism, emotional arousal
In-Reply-To: <CAPoR7a5W+aa==1DPTLBxXzKuQcG4RzwJM0v7uSMF1hm2ZPLw7A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BF7498ED-47C3-4434-B841-95AF22F61F8F@alumni.Virginia.edu>	<CAPoR7a5YXDGmfYzZS1ERLxqw8v26iqcdSoByU6d+cZhEpQoJHg@mail.gmail.com>	<CA+LBAbS4EPozxcm5LuX6Avm6gPz0=zsjoQOAWLE8ViA=M+su7A@mail.gmail.com>	<CAPy8RwYb2+4w5werWHme-t03-cq2LEuTG_bNj_3gSHjM4ypePA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPoR7a5W+aa==1DPTLBxXzKuQcG4RzwJM0v7uSMF1hm2ZPLw7A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <040101cca232$f5658f40$e030adc0$@att.net>

 

 

From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Stefano Vaj
.
>."Ideological capitalism" posits, at least as far as I understand it, that
this should not be any community's (ie, government's) business, since market
mechanisms are going to deliver all that automagically. In other POVs, on
the contrary, capitalism may be just a possible mean, amongst others and
subject to disproval, to an end, in particular in order to spare the
micromanagement efforts involved in total planning; ad in other POVs again,
it has shown by now its inability to deliver all that in the long term.

 

This is evenhanded and well stated, thanks.

 

 

>.Last post for today, I do not want to incur Spike's wrath... :-) --
Stefano Vaj

 

 

Stefano you have been here a long time and have never been a chronic
over-poster.  If someone has a particular topic for which they have a great
passion, and a flurry of activity comes up on a particular day, I will not
complain immediately.  I trust your judgment if you have a long history of
smart interesting commentary, sometimes called street cred.  When in doubt,
if you have something to say and have posted heavily some particular day, go
ahead, We are not rigid strict types.  On the other hand if anyone is
posting a lot of trivial, inane or annoying commentary, of course We will
watch that more closely and go offline to encourage the poster to think
harder and post smarter.  

 

We have had some successful experimentation with a temporary open season on
some particular hot topic.  I will watch, if something like that is needed,
or is requested, I am open minded to that.  I was thinking of opening the
Capitalism thread, but it appears to have peaked.

 

Our goal (Herr Assistant Moderator and Evolution) is not a rigid number of
posts in a strictly defined timeframe, but rather to improve the signal to
noise ratio of the ExI-chat list.  I am mostly encouraged by how things have
gone in the past couple years.

 

Play ball, me lads!

 

{8-]

 

spike  

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From anders at aleph.se  Sun Nov 13 21:25:12 2011
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 21:25:12 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Morality research
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armhtUxi_SrikfQrZKq4gMTM7OiZ_GssGLdFhr+bdDcmqDw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armhQFMydgbNiDzMiohRqWFAVTZgO7CbAtaM+ianWyDAQMg@mail.gmail.com>	<4EBFCF54.6090904@aleph.se>
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Message-ID: <4EC035B8.9030702@aleph.se>

BillK wrote:
> If ruthless regimes emphasise 'their' morality which destroys others,
> then I am not sure what sort of morality you might seek to enhance and
> how you would tell the difference.
>   

You probably shouldn't enhance a morality (a set of behaviors and 
explanations of the good), but rather the ability to be a moral 
decisionmaker. A deontology pill would be pretty bad if it didn't 
correspond to the true morality (if any), and we have plenty of ethical 
uncertainty. But being better able to understand other people, control 
one's impulses and predict the consequences of one's actions seem pretty 
good for everybody, no matter what ethical theory you subscribe to.


> Some might say that groups filled with psychopaths have brought the
> world economy to its knees, enriching themselves and destroying the
> lives of millions.

That is likely more because people like to blame individuals rather than 
systems. It is more fun shouting slogans against fat cat bankers than 
against principal agent failure, which IMHO is the real core cause of 
the revent crisis constellation. The deep problem is that the 
institutions that were supposed to monitor and control within and 
between institutions didn't do a very good job, and few cared or 
understood the issue. After the first financial crisis in 2007 this was 
pretty obvious, but institutional reform (by better oversight or just 
letting bad institutions go bancrupt) didn't happen for a long list of 
legal, economical and political reasons. So of course things repeated 
and got worse. But how many OWS people shout that the SEC should be 
given better tools for analysing principal agent problems, or even in 
favor of Basel III?

The density of psychopaths is probably fairly constant between different 
organisations or institutions offering wealth and power - they are 
attracted to it, and the ones that are not selected out will thrive, 
whether it is a government, a company or an aid organisation. The 
failures of institutions rarely have much to do with particular bad 
people and more with a lack of ability to filter out bad people.


> Cognitive enhancement is a tool that can be used for good or evil.  I
> don't know of any basis for claiming that more intelligent people are
> generally more moral. How do you ensure that enhanced intelligence is
> 'Friendly'?
>   

No guarantees. Unlike AI the risk of smarter people getting 
super-advantages given biomedical enhancement seem remote, so the need 
to ensure that the smartest are nicest is less pressing.

But as I said, there is some evidence that intelligence makes people 
better at cooperation. See for example http://mason.gmu.edu/~gjonesb/

-- 
Anders Sandberg,
Future of Humanity Institute 
Oxford Martin School 
Faculty of Philosophy 
Oxford University 



From kellycoinguy at gmail.com  Sun Nov 13 22:24:16 2011
From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 15:24:16 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Capitalism, anti capitalism, emotional arousal
In-Reply-To: <CAL+RtPcc4iZCcOjCk7T5GQZXd1+xTrtdzOc5C4+8Ay9ELLL6NA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BF7498ED-47C3-4434-B841-95AF22F61F8F@alumni.Virginia.edu>
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2011/11/12 Giovanni Santostasi <gsantostasi at gmail.com>:
> Why people think OWS has to do with going back to hunter-gatherer society or
> communism?

Because those are among the answers given to interviewers when
protesters are asked what they want. Simple.

> Look at this for example:
> http://www.yesmagazine.org/issues/new-livelihoods/whos-building-the-do-it-ourselves-economy
> What is here that sounds like wanting to go back to hunter-gatherer society?

The OWS demonstrators that I have heard interviewed did not provide
anything close to this cogent of answers. Some of these ideas are very
good, and should be implemented. If they are good ideas, capitalism
will provide the means for them to be implemented... and in many cases
it is already doing so. For example, local farmer's markets...

-Kelly


From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Sun Nov 13 22:54:08 2011
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 15:54:08 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Capitalism, anti capitalism, emotional arousal
In-Reply-To: <CAPy8RwYAq2rTaJopVfBvDd5BAJNKiAuwQyjHPun_U=Skz6U46A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BF7498ED-47C3-4434-B841-95AF22F61F8F@alumni.Virginia.edu>
	<CAPoR7a5YXDGmfYzZS1ERLxqw8v26iqcdSoByU6d+cZhEpQoJHg@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAGSKFy1ZNRR6tSvnoiC0nhypZJZxjzPBRNMSYT65RSimP+K=KA@mail.gmail.com>

Giovanni Santostasi wrote:
I have been in this group since a few years.
Not sure if that qualifies me as new or not ; )
Thanks John Grigg to express in a very eloquent way exactly my sentiments
on the matter.
>>>


Giovanni, I am honored by your generous words.  I dearly hope America,
Europe, China and the rest of the world can successfully navigate the next
fifty years in a way that builds a strong foundation for energy
self-sufficiency, well-funded scientific research, protection of the
environment, respected personal liberties, world peace, meeting the basic
needs of the desperately poor, and a healthy global economy.


I suspect it will be a very bumpy ride due to human nuture...


John  : )
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From kellycoinguy at gmail.com  Sun Nov 13 23:27:03 2011
From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 16:27:03 -0700
Subject: [ExI] I'm trying to track down a particular role-playing game...
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armiunsHorL+=CPHu-ew=dgo6=Ui=e1G4Srpsnh_WTsunEw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGSKFy1u-Wm2ywtu2t2zf5E6e3xj8ijk_NZxsEP4fV74j+cvSw@mail.gmail.com>
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On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 2:20 AM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:
> 2011/11/13 John Grigg wrote:
>> It was not Space Opera, that was a game that I had, and remember well.? The
>> list is cool, but so little information is given about each game, and there
>> are no pictures.
>
> Many of the games in the list have pictures of the box cover, but you
> have to go through the detailed list, clicking on the games names that
> have links.

Try searching for the games from the list on EBay... maybe you can
find pictures of the game boxes and stuff there...

-Kelly



From tara at taramayastales.com  Mon Nov 14 00:22:54 2011
From: tara at taramayastales.com (Tara Maya)
Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 16:22:54 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Consensus (was Capitalism, etc.)
In-Reply-To: <CAL+RtPd=gDv-DZsr2uDR=k7gRQ69GZEK9q6HDWVv+Q0EJRVRbA@mail.gmail.com>
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On Nov 12, 2011, at 2:22 PM, Giovanni Santostasi wrote:

> But I don't think not letting Lewis talk had anything to do with racism.
> It was about some silly idealistic principle that nobody is better than anybody else so he should not given special time to make a speech. That is silly and it shows how exaggerated idealism can be used to manipulate people bevavior in "mind mobbing".
> The manipulation was not even based on bad intentions but the final result was still absurd.
> I take it though as social experimentation.
> Interesting video though.
> Giovanni

I don't think it was racism either. It was an attempt to create a different form of government that would be superior to democracy. I know, because I've been part of that community, and it was also my hope to find an improvement to replace representative democracy.

This governing method is called "consensus decision making" or sometimes, more vaguely, "direct democracy" or "leaderless government." Consensus is required to advance any decision. Ideally, this is to ensure that everyone in the group is heard and equally respected, and that majorities must compromise with minorities. It was developed by the Quakers, where it works quite well.

I was part of a radical peace team for a year, and we used consensus decision making. It has its good points and bad points. I enjoyed the non-hierarchical aspect of CDM; this is the biggest strength of the system. Our team was usually composed of 6-12 people, which was optimum; there was enough diversity of opinion to ensure a rousing argument, but few enough  people to allow for genuine compromise. However, even with such a small group, it only works under hothouse conditions. During our training period for the team, individuals who could not handle this system, either because they were too combative or because they needed more direction, were dropped from the team. 

Even with hand-picked pacifists for team-mates, the system was impossible to scale up. I attended an international meeting of pacifists with over 200 people. Like the Occupites, we were supposed to be leaderless, and make all our decisions by consensus. Leaders were called "facilitators." In the small group, the facilitator was merely a moderator of group debate, but with over 200 people to moderate, this was unrealistic. They were, therefore, leaders, and pretending they weren't was deceptive. Unfortunately, that wasn't the end of the hypocrisy. There was no way to reach a genuine consensus of 200 people, but desperate to maintain that illusion, the (un)leaders bullied the group along. Voting -- or "temperature taking" or "testing for consensus" -- was not secret. Everyone held up cards. If someone held up a "defect" card, then the whole group had to keep debating until there was "consensus."

Again, the theory was to allow minority opinions the right to be heard, but the actual outcome was the exact opposite. Those with dissenting opinions were bullied into silence so that the rest of the group could move on. Otherwise, no decisions would be made at all! In fact, so twisted did it become, that outcomes like the Lewis-incident were not uncommon. What is so outrageous about the Lewis incident is not that a renowned Civil Rights leader was not allowed to speak, but that he was not allowed to speak DESPITE THE FACT THE MAJORITY WANTED HIM TOO. And this was done in the name of "consensus."

Sadly, this is not at all unusual for so-called "consensus decision."

I actually LOVED working on a consensus team, but after a year of experience with it, I concluded sadly that as it is now practiced in the radical community, it would be a poor replacement for democracy.

I did have an idea for a system which possibly could take good aspects of classic democracy and good aspects of CDM. Political leaders would not be career-politicians, but would be chosen randomly from the citizens... the way juries are today. Individuals could be called up to governing duty exactly the way we are today called up for jury duty, and perhaps there would also be a provision for eliminating some individuals from governing duty if they were deemed unfit. (I am a bit unsure on this point, since it begs the question, who would do the weeding out? The previous governing team? Lawyers and judges? Appointed staff?) These teams would debate and pass laws, exactly like Congress does today, and would also be divided into executive and legislative branches of the government.

Now, would this be an improvement over our present system? I have no idea. There would still the temptation for interest groups to bribe and bully the governing teams. It might be worse than democracy. But even if it were better, it certainly would not usher in a utopia, since humans would be involved. 








From kellycoinguy at gmail.com  Mon Nov 14 01:34:13 2011
From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 18:34:13 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Money and Human Nature (was Re: Capitalism,
 anti capitalism, emotional arousal)
In-Reply-To: <CAPoR7a4TYgSD=ZLQ_0oczPSAnsVjPnukb8SsP6NOAB=vS4SvXg@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAPy8RwZdHMGYw6LoZJVq4xxznGEwSm0OqOv19bZDnWNoQw1XVQ@mail.gmail.com>

2011/11/12 Stefano Vaj <stefano.vaj at gmail.com>
> On 11 November 2011 21:55, Kelly Anderson <kellycoinguy at gmail.com> wrote:
> Money evolved quite a lot along history, as shown for instance by Money as Debt, as well as those in control thereof and its social function. I am not sure that some kind of "money", probably in the form of accounting units records, should not be maintained, and in fact it was even during the most radical socialist experiments, but this leaves open to debate most significant issues affecting it.

You may have noticed my user name... KellyCoinGuy... In another life,
I am Life Member 5228 of the American Numismatic
Association...(www.ana.org) A coin collector, a numismatist. Part of
being a numismatist is studying the history of money. So I have
probably studied more about the history of money than most people out
there... However, that doesn't mean I'm an expert at economics.

My favorite book on the history of money is "Frozen Desire: The
Meaning of Money" by James Buchan. It is a great read, very well
written and it goes through a lot of the history of money in all its
forms.

I can't imagine a world without money. Once the concept is invented,
it's just real hard for it to go away...

> Ownership is an altogether different issue. The members of the ruling
>class in Sparta, eg, had no personal ownership whatsoever (contrary to
>lower classes).

Wasn't this because the ruling class in Sparta were warriors? And
weren't they due a living by the rest of society? So, in effect, they
owned whatever they needed... whenever they needed it... right? They
were the elites. Of course Spartans were weird by modern standards, so
this may not have meant much to them.

>Yet, they certainly did not share all they had with anybody, and had a
>rather strong sense of their individuality - eg, they were certainly not
>unconcerned by things such as personal honor or ambition.

Personal honor was the MOST important thing in Sparta. At least among
the ruling warrior caste.

I can see small corners and pockets where things like open source can
make money irrelevant in a very limited context... but without money
in the overall system, little corners like this just can't exist for
very long, IMHO.

Even the Spartan warriors could not exist without the money that was
exchanged by the underclasses.

-Kelly



From kellycoinguy at gmail.com  Mon Nov 14 01:37:56 2011
From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 18:37:56 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Money and Human Nature (was Re: Capitalism,
 anti capitalism, emotional arousal)
In-Reply-To: <CAPy8RwZdHMGYw6LoZJVq4xxznGEwSm0OqOv19bZDnWNoQw1XVQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPy8RwYcPYP-DGuqTkFmHpfCPQFqE==warBZw+TS3wjXUY1c9Q@mail.gmail.com>
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	<CAPy8RwZdHMGYw6LoZJVq4xxznGEwSm0OqOv19bZDnWNoQw1XVQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPy8RwbagWUJqDw2e6W8OMuU-VmBc-fDhQSiDMqiGE03fxyByQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 6:34 PM, Kelly Anderson <kellycoinguy at gmail.com> wrote:
> You may have noticed my user name... KellyCoinGuy... In another life,
> I am Life Member 5228 of the American Numismatic
> Association...(www.ana.org) A coin collector, a numismatist.

Correction that's http://www.money.org

-Kelly


From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Mon Nov 14 02:02:42 2011
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 19:02:42 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Money and Human Nature (was Re: Capitalism,
 anti capitalism, emotional arousal)
In-Reply-To: <CAPy8RwbagWUJqDw2e6W8OMuU-VmBc-fDhQSiDMqiGE03fxyByQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPy8RwYcPYP-DGuqTkFmHpfCPQFqE==warBZw+TS3wjXUY1c9Q@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAGSKFy3vFECQk7GjzmwvJ6o64ZHkmP-sMSO8d1Juswe+9S+-2Q@mail.gmail.com>

Kelly Anderson wrote:
Even the Spartan warriors could not exist without the money that was
exchanged by the underclasses.
>>>


And as Sparta gained more and more military successes, ultimately defeating
Athens (at least for a time), wealth flowed in that deeply "corrupted" the
philosophy of life/lifestyle the Spartans had embraced for centuries.  They
had before heavily frowned upon major consumer consumption and materialism,
with the exception, up to a point, of the king(s) and their family &
entourage.  But due to all the war booty and tribute given, you could now
easily see which Spartan individuals and families were among the powerful,
due to all the many fancy possessions.


John
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Mon Nov 14 03:33:38 2011
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 20:33:38 -0700
Subject: [ExI] I found the game! : )
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy3uQZw-hnx7xgPYKQa32OooaCbd6dQXDw3JP1wwF_7iJg@mail.gmail.com>

The game I was hunting for is Star Rovers!  : )  The cover art for the 1981
boxed set rpg was lame, but according to a reviewer I found, Mr. Lizard, it
was still an extremely special game of astounding imagination and fun, that
he played many times while in highschool.

This will show the laughable box artwork...

http://rpggeek.com/rpg/1742/star-rovers


He excitedly discusses the *epicly epic* game setting...

I?ve skipped a few paragraphs here and there, but nothing which would add
more "context" or "meaning" or "definitions" or any other such wuss-like
things. Hurrakku? Dragonspawn? "Starspawned"? Starknights? Rebel Axis? Some
of these words show up again in the text, never explicitly called out or
defined, others are never seen again. But you KNOW what this game is about!
Giant alien?somethings? that chew through
ENTIRE STARCLUSTERS! Biomorphs! Starknights! Ancient artifacts! Galactic
secrets! Holes in TIME AND SPACE! Some sort of outer space dragon men, or
something! Whatever! It?s cool! This game certainly isn?t about whipping
out your HP Scientific Calculator that does RPN and trying to figure out
the fuel requirements for the jump drive and if you?ll show a 15 credit
profit on that load of dried beans you?re hauling from one planet to
another. This game is about things that eat galaxies, man! Whatever they
are! Didn?t you read it, dude? They, like, eat galaxies! Or they?re running
from something that eats galaxies. Or? something. Whatever. Dragonspawn!!!!

>>>
This is what he had to say about the awesomely wonderful timeline that I
remember after all these years....


*THE. FRACKING. TIMELINE. *

I say, without fear of contradiction (mostly because being contradicted
doesn?t scare me, it just pisses me off), that this timeline, a
poster-sized piece of folded paper, is composed of 100% pure compressed *
awesome*. Never before and never again has so much unadulterated
*cool*been shoved into one simple piece of paper. The timeline reaches
from Tech
Level "A", the "Proto Social Age", where Power Source was "Muscle" and
"Communication and Transport" consisted of "Grunts & Growls" and "Walking",
all the way through endless epochs to "V", where the power source was
"Entropy" and "Economic Org. & Occupations" are "Monitors Of The
Starchildren". Along the way from stone knives to "Astral Combat", we learn
that at Tech Level "L", the "Aquarian Age" (the tech level right after "K",
the "Nuclear Age", aka 1981), we will live in "Orbital Ghettoes" and our
religions will include "Scientosophy" and "Grokism". (At tech level "Q",
religions include "Revival Of The Demonic Cults"). By tech level "R",
government will be by "Universal Government Ipsocracies". (Ipsocracies? Is
that a *word?* Yes, it is. It is a word (Ipsocracy) with only *three Google
hits*, all referring to the work of deconstructionist founder Derrida.
Whoa. Dude. Are you getting this? In 1981, the people who worked on this
game ? people who deserve far more that the obscurity to which they and
this piece of pure wonder have been cast ? tossed onto their Timeline Chart
a term so astoundingly obscure that in the umpty-zillion petabytes of
information indexed by Google, it appears only three times. In context, it
seems the word was used correctly, too. I repeat: Whoa.) Anyway, that?s the
timeline. I promised character creation, and we will be getting to it,
soon.
>>>

His summary that shows his respect for the vast scope,
imagination, and cool craziness of the game...

Well, that took a lot longer than I?d planned? I mean, this whole series,
not just this little coda (though it, too, took longer than expected). What
can I say? "Star Rovers" shares with the original Arduin books an
incredible *density* of ideas, made possible by never actually explaining
much of them in depth. Terms, words, locations, concepts are all flung onto
the page and then never heard from again. You?re left to ponder the
meaning, or make up your own. The rules were a spur to imagination, not a
set of limits upon it. The nadir of roleplaying (in my opinion), the 1990s,
was the age of the Metaplot, of deeply detailed settings that mapped out
every square foot, and that reduced PCs to bit players who walked in the
shadow of "canon" NPCs that got to have world changing adventures (in
novels), while the DM was reduced to being an automaton who read from boxed
text and didn?t dare let his players accomplish anything meaningful since
it might mean the next supplement would be useless.
>>>


http://mrlizard.com/tag/star-rovers/


I will definitely have to find and buy a copy of this game.  I just wish it
had succeeded enough that supplement books had been written for it
(especially the one for starship combat).  But the cover art was horrendous
(ironic because the inside art was excellent), which I'm sure adversely
affected sales.  And yet despite the limited output, the scope of it's
imagination was incredible!  I hope "Mr. Lizard," or another game developer
(with permission), does actually pick up where the original designers left
off, and expand the game universe & update the rule mechanics.  But they
better not suck the life out of it!

This game may not be quite as transhumanist in nature as the much more
recent Eclipse Phase or Transhuman Space, but I think it still does work in
terms of stretching the imagination.  It planted seeds/memes in my mind at
a very young age, as science fiction in various forms did with many of us.


Best wishes,

John  : )
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From kgh1kgh2 at gmail.com  Mon Nov 14 05:15:45 2011
From: kgh1kgh2 at gmail.com (Kevin G Haskell)
Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 00:15:45 -0500
Subject: [ExI] OWS rolling in the Mud
Message-ID: <CAEUzo3KLnoq-K_PcukikAf0LZeZqtiCFhcWBbUYfHp4RgPUocg@mail.gmail.com>

Alfio Puglisi replied to Kevin G Haskell, and return reply to Alfio:

Message: 8
Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 17:08:17 +0100
From: Alfio Puglisi <alfio.puglisi at gmail.com>
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: Re: [ExI] OWS Rolling in the Mud
Message-ID:
       <CAJUeD7hJm-p6T+65Ea2J1mnCfN4MuYmhhXdPmD4rtm1VojvVKg at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

2011/11/12 Kevin G Haskell <kgh1kgh2 at gmail.com>

(Kevin wrote): "> [...] when no Western nation presently practices
Capitalism, but an awful
> Socialist/Capitalist hybrid of one sort of the other, is very misguided.
>
>
> But if that majority of people in the OWS movement in Western nations will
> continue to blame to the wrong parties for this growing mess, then perhaps
> they should at least stop using the all of the products that were produced
> by Capitalism, such as their tents, clothes, most foods, cameras, phones,
> computers, bathrooms, toilet paper, feminine hygiene products, soap,
> shampoo, ink for their signs, the paper they write their messages on,
> private and public transportation, etc.,etc."
>
>
(Alfio's reply): "There is something that puzzles me, if no nation on Earth
practices pure
capitalism (and this is obviously true), but instead "some awful hybrid"
how can the production of all those goods be ascribed to capitalism and not
to something else? How is the partition done, if possible at all?

Alfio"

First, just correct something, I directed my point at Western nations, not
"no nation on Earth."  However, to reply to that, yes, we can fairly say
tha that most nations on earth also have some hybrid of
Socialism/Capitalism, but almost always, the lower income and less freedom
in nations, with few exceptions, is tied to them having more Socialism in
that mix than less. Also to point out, all nations require 'some' Socialism
if one is to regard the rule of law as a bit of Socialism as long as the
Socialism, in the form of laws, are limited, clear transparent, and fairly
applied. In order to allow Capitalism to be function properly, then it is
actually a requirement.  Even in the Founding of United States, and in
present day Hong Kong, this is true. We are far, far away from the type of
that kind of hybrid, but far more toward an impure Socialist/Capitalist mix
that I refer to as "an awful hybrid."

Regarding the rest of your point, let me divest you of the misunderstand
that you seem to share with a fair amount of the OWSers, (but not all of
them,) that the products I mentioned that the OWSers use were somehow still
produced within the "awful hybrid" of Socialism/Capitalism, and therefor,
heavy-handed Socialism must somehow still be acceptable or even a good
thing.  While it is true that these products were produced in the present
hybrid system(s,) it is 'despite' the barriers the massive amounts of
Socialistic barriers that Western government continue to pile on top of the
inventive-productive Capitalist class of people, not 'because' of the
heaven burden of Socialist governing class placed on those Capitalists.

It is the Capitalist class that produced the homes, the jobs, and the
wealth that so many of the people who now find themselves without the
luxuries and benefits, that they had them at all, and it is because of the
Socialist class that they have lost them.  Many people who have lost these
wonders of Capitalism to Socialist policies that prevent and prohibit the
flourishing of productive Capitalism, but the OWSers direct there anger at
those who produced that wealth in the first place, while supporting more of
the policies that actually have caused the problem, and that is the
Socialist class.

The Socialist class produces nothing.  It only steals from the
inventive-productive class, gives to those who are lost, dependent,and
under-educated 'because' of our Socialist public school system, and then
have trained these same people over the course of years in these same
Socialist systems to look at the productive class as all being corrupt,
using Bernie Madoff and Carlo Ponzi and early Capitalist "robber barons" as
examples for them, to attack all of Capitalism, and promote more
Socialism.  These ideas are promoted not only K-12, but through the
University years.

I hope that helps enlighten you as to point I was making.

Kevin
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From kgh1kgh2 at gmail.com  Mon Nov 14 05:25:40 2011
From: kgh1kgh2 at gmail.com (Kevin G Haskell)
Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 00:25:40 -0500
Subject: [ExI] OWS rolling in the Mud
Message-ID: <CAEUzo3K99DXMj+39axraPYgpE_-_GsruvMbaoXOJ_Whv9Y8QnQ@mail.gmail.com>

Giovanni Santostasi wrote to Kevin G Haskee, and Kevin's reply:

(Giovanni): "Message: 9
Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 11:20:19 -0600
From: Giovanni Santostasi <gsantostasi at gmail.com>
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: Re: [ExI] OWS Rolling in the Mud
Message-ID:
       <CAL+RtPccV2iXtyt=
joFBqM20c16r-NikzxFTu396Ksi=xZs5aA at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

>>It is the most stupid form of socialism where money is taken from the poor
to subsidize rich individuals and corporations.
Giovanni<<

It estimated that the percent of Americans who pay no taxes at all recently
passed 51% of the population.  Most of these people receive Social
Security, Medicare, Medicaid, welfare, state assistance, other forms of
government aid, community and church donations, and individual charity.
This money comes from the remaining 49% of the tax-paying part of the
population, including the rapidly shrinking middle-class that is slipping
into the poor under-class.

You have it reversed about who is subsidizing who.

Kevin
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From kgh1kgh2 at gmail.com  Mon Nov 14 05:54:59 2011
From: kgh1kgh2 at gmail.com (Kevin G Haskell)
Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 00:54:59 -0500
Subject: [ExI] OWS Rolling in the Mud
Message-ID: <CAEUzo3J8tjaYxodRAn9oxmN8UHp=+q3uTXeaL7jjEzaExRM7VQ@mail.gmail.com>

Giovanni Santostasi's first reply to Kevin G Haskell, and Kevin's response:

Message: 12
Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 11:29:52 -0600
From: Giovanni Santostasi <gsantostasi at gmail.com>
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: Re: [ExI] OWS Rolling in the Mud
Message-ID:
       <CAL+RtPdiecuVWu=n9-Hhqtb1xLzyjGHAwO+9aSnbN6oO-afHUQ at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

(Giovanni): >>"Kevin,
OWS is not against productions of goods in general.
Goods can be produced in many different ways. Capitalism is not necessary.
I have posted videos showing that creativity in his highest form is not
motivated by money.
In the lab were I work people do very creative work, putting hours at night
and the weekend without making millions of dollars out of this.
A lot of creative people work without the motivation of money. What is
important is to have enough money not to have to think about money.
The super-rich ARE NOT THAT CREATIVE at all. It is a myth, a lie. There are
very few Steve Jobs over there. And most of the products are anyway created
not by CEO or board members but scientists, engineers, designers that are
not paid enormous quantity of money.
Why are gong back to the same trite arguments to support capitalism?
People could come together, create wonderful things and share them as it is
done in many creative commons projects.
It is just a question of imagining new forms of organization that are not
inevitably producing few people that are ruling over everybody else.
Giovanni"<<

(Kevin replied):  There are different ways to produce wealth, yes, but all
involve some form of underlining force, by threat, actual use, and both.
But Capitalism with limited laws to maintain structure requires the least
form of force, allows for the most individual freedoms, and maximizes
wealth creation for all classes of people.

There is never enough money to not think about it, because at anytime,
radical events can happen to make us lose all of our money.  Just look at
what started happening in 2008 and since then.  Anyone can find themselves
out on the street at any time, and this is when community and individual
charity comes into play, and that is to help the afflicted get the help
they need.  In a system that practices the maximum amount of rational
Capitalism, the amount of wealth produced would allow most people not to
fall into hard times with creating their own support system, and for those
who don't, there would be so much societal and individual wealth, their
would be more than enough people with money to assist those in need.

Even Ayn Rand, who hated the idea of most altruism, realized that there
were occasions when some would be necessary.  (Yes, I agree with quite a
bit of what Ayn Rand said and wrote, but I'd like to take this opportunity
so say that I am not a purest "Randian," although she nailed down quite a
bit of things quite nicely.)

Who pays those scientists and engineers that are not the captains of
industry other than the captains of industry?  As technological society
advances, the skills that scientists and researchers are going to become
increasingly crucial for companies, and they 'will' pay them more and more
as time goes by in order to be competitive and grow.  What's more, many of
these same scientists and researchers are the same people that go on to
produce our most important, value producing, wealth producing, job
producing benefits for themselves, their employees, and all of society.
This happens, yes, because some want to 'help' people, or because they
enjoy what they do, but this is also heavily motivated by the idea by
creating great profit in 'money.'  Money is the number one reward for a
person to survive, and survival for most people in the most important
motivation there is.

There would be a lot more types of people like Steve Jobs if people were
properly educated in our public schools on how to start and effectively run
businesses.  They don't, so most creative people feel confined to
practicing within the career they were were trained within, and not taking
those skills to a higher level to expanding it.

Discussions of Capitalism are not "trite," but 'core.'  It is time to start
moving our societies away from destructive Socialism, and toward
Capitalism.  Until we find that 'perhaps' if we become Transhuman, or
evolve under the permission of the AGI species that we create (or,AGIans as
I like to coin a name,) Capitalism is an absolute must for us to uphold and
train for all classes for people.

Kevin
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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Mon Nov 14 10:02:07 2011
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 11:02:07 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Morality research
In-Reply-To: <4EBFCF54.6090904@aleph.se>
References: <CAL_armhQFMydgbNiDzMiohRqWFAVTZgO7CbAtaM+ianWyDAQMg@mail.gmail.com>
	<4EBFCF54.6090904@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a5ix0re2qBgs6stOx=BVM94niRU4obGbmGz-_2mW1pJQg@mail.gmail.com>

On 13 November 2011 15:08, Anders Sandberg <anders at aleph.se> wrote:

> Lack of morality is rarely a benefit: it impairs the ability to work well
> in long-term alliances.
>

I maintain that a difference exists between ethics and ethology. In turn,

The latter is obviously moulded by selective pressures, but depending on
the context the same pressures may well make "good deeds" the obvious
choice for a rational utility-maximising agent.

If this is the case we have conformity and compliance at best, but this
does not really seem to have much to do with moral, morality or moral
philosophy, which mostly deal with one's ability to act *against* his or
her own interest and/or pulsions.

As to playing with our ethology or "istincts", as a transhumanist I
certainly abhor any kind of prohibitionism thereupon, but we should think
long and hard about what we would like to do and why. Besides bioluddites'
platitudes on zombies, brainwashing, slave-breeding eugencis, etc.,
excessive empathy or conformism to social norms not only would
significantly degrade the quality of life of the bearer, but would reveal
problematic in the fields of, say, surgery, education, law enforcement,
business, human resources, etc,.

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Mon Nov 14 10:04:56 2011
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 11:04:56 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Morality research
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armhtUxi_SrikfQrZKq4gMTM7OiZ_GssGLdFhr+bdDcmqDw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armhQFMydgbNiDzMiohRqWFAVTZgO7CbAtaM+ianWyDAQMg@mail.gmail.com>
	<4EBFCF54.6090904@aleph.se>
	<CAL_armhtUxi_SrikfQrZKq4gMTM7OiZ_GssGLdFhr+bdDcmqDw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a6Cwv7cb+Vi2uBsrALR8uZtv0hZ-tiZsdOZmpEQavuTVA@mail.gmail.com>

On 13 November 2011 16:38, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:

> If ruthless regimes emphasise 'their' morality which destroys others,
> then I am not sure what sort of morality you might seek to enhance and
> how you would tell the difference.
>

You need not tell the difference. I you have at hand ways to improve
people's conformity to *your* moral, and thus their "morality" from you
POV, you may opt to make use of them no matter what your moral dictates.

Except of course if your moral prevents you from doing so. :-)

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From bbenzai at yahoo.com  Mon Nov 14 10:07:56 2011
From: bbenzai at yahoo.com (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 02:07:56 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ExI] Morality research
In-Reply-To: <mailman.632.1321210074.598.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <1321265276.53277.YahooMailClassic@web114408.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

I strongly recommend 'The Moral Landscape' by Sam Harris.  Fascinating and thought-provoking stuff.  I'm still reading it, and haven't made my mind up yet about his argument, but it's definitely worth reading.  I think it's particularly relevant to the question of 'friendly AI'.

Ben Zaiboc



From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Mon Nov 14 10:36:51 2011
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 11:36:51 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Consensus (was Capitalism, etc.)
In-Reply-To: <38A43BB3-0875-4990-9AB4-FA7CA55ABA3A@taramayastales.com>
References: <BF7498ED-47C3-4434-B841-95AF22F61F8F@alumni.Virginia.edu>
	<CAPoR7a5YXDGmfYzZS1ERLxqw8v26iqcdSoByU6d+cZhEpQoJHg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+LBAbS4EPozxcm5LuX6Avm6gPz0=zsjoQOAWLE8ViA=M+su7A@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPy8RwYb2+4w5werWHme-t03-cq2LEuTG_bNj_3gSHjM4ypePA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAL+RtPcc4iZCcOjCk7T5GQZXd1+xTrtdzOc5C4+8Ay9ELLL6NA@mail.gmail.com>
	<02cc01cca17b$f5b3c370$e11b4a50$@att.net>
	<CAL+RtPcQWqCX0gDYZ5rkK9om36ixLwLpG3i0Qg-gZwwDQVGtJA@mail.gmail.com>
	<02ec01cca184$d1631b70$74295250$@att.net>
	<CAL+RtPeFz2+G0JTHwoC+agUxQAwhaE5zSV5dbwGRGrXh6kDiqA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAL+RtPd=gDv-DZsr2uDR=k7gRQ69GZEK9q6HDWVv+Q0EJRVRbA@mail.gmail.com>
	<38A43BB3-0875-4990-9AB4-FA7CA55ABA3A@taramayastales.com>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a59e_=kPZZAPshx95oXKVJR25dj-4O7sp_ACAfNA14rww@mail.gmail.com>

On 14 November 2011 01:22, Tara Maya <tara at taramayastales.com> wrote:

> This governing method is called "consensus decision making" or sometimes,
> more vaguely, "direct democracy" or "leaderless government." Consensus is
> required to advance any decision. Ideally, this is to ensure that everyone
> in the group is heard and equally respected, and that majorities must
> compromise with minorities.
>

I think it may have more to do with fostering people's motivation to
struggle for shared goals, and sometimes goes hand-in-hand with a
theoretically absolute authority to implement the shared decisions by those
appointed to this effect.

In fact, such methods, which abhor actual votes, majority rule and
dissenters,  have been employed with varying degrees of success in contexts
as different as the Japanese-style management of large companies and the
Cultural Revolution in China.

Besides the possible reference to symbolic (and distant) leaders, most
decisions are taken through the relentless building of unanimous or
pseudo-unanimous consensus, negotiated throughout all the hierarchical
levels of the organisation concerned.

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From anders at aleph.se  Mon Nov 14 11:09:10 2011
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 11:09:10 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Morality research
In-Reply-To: <1321265276.53277.YahooMailClassic@web114408.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <1321265276.53277.YahooMailClassic@web114408.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4EC0F6D6.3000807@aleph.se>

Ben Zaiboc wrote:
> I strongly recommend 'The Moral Landscape' by Sam Harris.  Fascinating and thought-provoking stuff.  I'm still reading it, and haven't made my mind up yet about his argument, but it's definitely worth reading.  I think it's particularly relevant to the question of 'friendly AI'.
>   

It is worth noting that most professional ethicists dismiss it. Not just 
because of a "not invented here" or job security reasons, but because 
they find a lot of faults with his approach.

One of the interesting things to watch is how people who actually work 
on 'friendly AI' reinvent or rediscover chunks of old philosophy. The 
best even realize this, and then start interacting with philosophers - 
there is an interesting influx of new ideas on both sides (which is why 
we quite regularly have SIAI people camping out in our office, 
interacting with the more mainstream ethicists).

The problem happens when you don't think there is anything worth looking 
at in the old discipline, since obviously your fresh approach is going 
to cut through all that messy stuff. After all, they can't have thought 
about what you thought about in all those benighted centuries, right? 
This is where you do not just reinvent the wheel unnecessarily but also 
miss powerful counterarguments centuries old.

-- 
Anders Sandberg,
Future of Humanity Institute 
Oxford Martin School 
Faculty of Philosophy 
Oxford University 



From eugen at leitl.org  Mon Nov 14 11:17:53 2011
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 12:17:53 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Morality research
In-Reply-To: <4EC0F6D6.3000807@aleph.se>
References: <1321265276.53277.YahooMailClassic@web114408.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<4EC0F6D6.3000807@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <20111114111753.GD31847@leitl.org>

On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 11:09:10AM +0000, Anders Sandberg wrote:

> One of the interesting things to watch is how people who actually work  
> on 'friendly AI' reinvent or rediscover chunks of old philosophy. The  

You don't consider Friendly AI meaningless? 

> best even realize this, and then start interacting with philosophers -  
> there is an interesting influx of new ideas on both sides (which is why  
> we quite regularly have SIAI people camping out in our office,  
> interacting with the more mainstream ethicists).
>
> The problem happens when you don't think there is anything worth looking  
> at in the old discipline, since obviously your fresh approach is going  
> to cut through all that messy stuff. After all, they can't have thought  

How did the old philosophers deal with the idea of some (but not all)
humans becoming literal gods?

> about what you thought about in all those benighted centuries, right?  
> This is where you do not just reinvent the wheel unnecessarily but also  
> miss powerful counterarguments centuries old.

-- 
Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE


From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Mon Nov 14 11:32:55 2011
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 12:32:55 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Money and Human Nature (was Re: Capitalism,
 anti capitalism, emotional arousal)
In-Reply-To: <CAPy8RwZdHMGYw6LoZJVq4xxznGEwSm0OqOv19bZDnWNoQw1XVQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPy8RwYcPYP-DGuqTkFmHpfCPQFqE==warBZw+TS3wjXUY1c9Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPoR7a4TYgSD=ZLQ_0oczPSAnsVjPnukb8SsP6NOAB=vS4SvXg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPy8RwZdHMGYw6LoZJVq4xxznGEwSm0OqOv19bZDnWNoQw1XVQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a7bZXAwnw7g=UFhEz7TY4fzJMrNnwXHFu_vMNjNs2B9AA@mail.gmail.com>

On 14 November 2011 02:34, Kelly Anderson <kellycoinguy at gmail.com> wrote:

> Wasn't this because the ruling class in Sparta were warriors? And
> weren't they due a living by the rest of society? So, in effect, they
> owned whatever they needed... whenever they needed it... right? They
> were the elites.
>

They certainly were the ?lite, but could not legally by any means become
owners of anything. But the idea that an ?lite may be poorer that the
people they rule on is certainly not unheard of. Think of Jesuites, for
instance. Even at the acme of their influence, no matter how powerful they
were individually or as an order, their vows (povery, obedience, chastity)
prevented them from having any property at all in their name.

This is not a legal fiction. It actually means you cannot inherit, you
cannot sell or buy anything, you cannot have heirs, you cannot prevent the
order from taking away anything you may be using. And in principle (albeit
not always in practice) it means that your lifestyle should be, well,...
spartan.

European aristocracies, OTOH, used certainly to have a more lavish
lifestyle. But even there, at the origins of feodalism, you were not the
owner of the land you ruled on, and the king (or the higher vassal) could
take it away at any moment if you did not perform the duties for which it
was entrusted to you: military protection, economic production, enforcement
of laws, administration of justice, resolution of conflicts, collection of
taxes... Paradoxically, it was the new ideas brought by capitalism that
achieved to make them essentially parasitic classes, especially in
continental Europe.

Moreover, the idea is still widespread in the West that those who (at least
officially) rule a country need not be the richest people in that country,
or even that they should forfeit the control of any significant assets they
may have during office.

What many consider a distortion is the fact that today poorer, albeit
theoretically more powerful, rulers are in fact over-influenced by richer
private citizens, or much more often headless, self-referential
institutions, cartels and circles, such as bankers and speculators,
without any office or answeerability or visibility, through corruption,
lobbying, campaign financing, media control, etc.

Mr. Berlusconi's rule in Italy was an exception in that he was essentially
accused of being a corruptor rather than a corruptee... :-)

Even the Spartan warriors could not exist without the money that was
> exchanged by the underclasses.
>

Sure. In the broadest sense, a symbolic accounting system has never been
abandoned anywhere it has ever been adopted.

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Mon Nov 14 11:48:20 2011
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 12:48:20 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Morality research
In-Reply-To: <20111114111753.GD31847@leitl.org>
References: <1321265276.53277.YahooMailClassic@web114408.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<4EC0F6D6.3000807@aleph.se> <20111114111753.GD31847@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a4Hdr6uhQLhyjAvmPKkV=nqBBG_YdUhkGZ=DhQJeFxt3w@mail.gmail.com>

On 14 November 2011 12:17, Eugen Leitl <eugen at leitl.org> wrote:

> You don't consider Friendly AI meaningless?
>

I for one consider the concept pretty fuzzy upon closer inspection...


> How did the old philosophers deal with the idea of some (but not all)
> humans becoming literal gods?
>

Rather positively, I dare say. The concept has been the object of relentess
curses and anathemas only during the last 15 or 16 centuries, as a matter
of fundamental worldview.

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From bbenzai at yahoo.com  Mon Nov 14 11:46:56 2011
From: bbenzai at yahoo.com (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 03:46:56 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ExI] Morality research
In-Reply-To: <mailman.639.1321268965.598.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <1321271216.98693.YahooMailClassic@web114420.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

Anders Sandberg <anders at aleph.se> wrote:

> Ben Zaiboc wrote:
> > I strongly recommend 'The Moral Landscape' by Sam Harris.  Fascinating > > and thought-provoking stuff.  I'm still reading it, and haven't made 
> > my mind up yet about his argument, but it's definitely worth reading.  > > I think it's particularly relevant to the question of 'friendly AI'.
> > 
> 
> It is worth noting that most professional ethicists dismiss it. Not just
> because of a "not invented here" or job security reasons, but because
> they find a lot of faults with his approach.


Really?  They actually dismiss it, rather than argue with it?

Well, it would be interesting to see some counter-arguments explained in similarly accessible language.  If he is reinventing the wheel, at least he's doing it in a way that is understandable to the average person.  It seems (so far, I haven't finished it yet) to be a potentially useful wheel, and if there are fatal flaws with it, someone should be explaining them in easy-to-understand terms.  Perhaps someone is?  I'll have to go looking once I've finished the book.

Ben Zaiboc



From ddraig at gmail.com  Mon Nov 14 12:32:20 2011
From: ddraig at gmail.com (ddraig)
Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 23:32:20 +1100
Subject: [ExI] I found the game! : )
In-Reply-To: <CAGSKFy3uQZw-hnx7xgPYKQa32OooaCbd6dQXDw3JP1wwF_7iJg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGSKFy3uQZw-hnx7xgPYKQa32OooaCbd6dQXDw3JP1wwF_7iJg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGfkSy12+Dc1=BWcNQVRaGJuH9MDmMBBTXUDMkUDd3uVURRSdw@mail.gmail.com>

Well, that was an excellent read!

I've been checking for updates to see if anyone worked out what the
game was, less and less certain you'd find it, and you did! I was not
into role-playing when I was a kid (anything even *possibly*
intellectual rsulted in beatins at my knuckle-dragging school, which
meant no one did anything like role-playing), and by the time I hit
university it was all terribly pass?.  I've played a game of
Shadowrun, I think.  That was interesting.

But wow this game sounds cool! I'm glad you put in as much info as you
did, that review was excellent, and makes me regret, for the umpteenth
time, going to a school where *reading* got you bashed.  A whole
childhood of highly creative fun via RPGs is something I had in an
alternate timeline, but not this one(*).  Oh well, I had SF, that was
good enough.

Now you're going to have to let us know if you ever find a copy of the game :-)

Dwayne
(*) although in this one I joined the SCA when I was at uni  ;p
-- 
? ddraig at pobox.com irc.bluesphereweb.com #dna
? ? ? ?? ...r.e.t.u.r.n....t.o....t.h.e....s.o.u.r.c.e...
? ? ? ? http://tinyurl.com/he-is-right-you-know-jpg
our aim is wakefulness,? our enemy is dreamless sleep



From tara at taramayastales.com  Mon Nov 14 16:04:31 2011
From: tara at taramayastales.com (Tara Maya)
Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 08:04:31 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Money and Human Nature (was Re: Capitalism,
	anti capitalism, emotional arousal)
In-Reply-To: <CAPoR7a7bZXAwnw7g=UFhEz7TY4fzJMrNnwXHFu_vMNjNs2B9AA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPy8RwYcPYP-DGuqTkFmHpfCPQFqE==warBZw+TS3wjXUY1c9Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPoR7a4TYgSD=ZLQ_0oczPSAnsVjPnukb8SsP6NOAB=vS4SvXg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPy8RwZdHMGYw6LoZJVq4xxznGEwSm0OqOv19bZDnWNoQw1XVQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPoR7a7bZXAwnw7g=UFhEz7TY4fzJMrNnwXHFu_vMNjNs2B9AA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C83D1454-E147-492E-ACCE-E7867F309CC5@taramayastales.com>

> Stefano wrote:

> European aristocracies, OTOH, used certainly to have a more lavish lifestyle. But even there, at the origins of feodalism, you were not the owner of the land you ruled on, and the king (or the higher vassal) could take it away at any moment if you did not perform the duties for which it was entrusted to you: military protection, economic production, enforcement of laws, administration of justice, resolution of conflicts, collection of taxes... Paradoxically, it was the new ideas brought by capitalism that achieved to make them essentially parasitic classes, especially in continental Europe.
> 
> Moreover, the idea is still widespread in the West that those who (at least officially) rule a country need not be the richest people in that country, or even that they should forfeit the control of any significant assets they may have during office. 
> 
> What many consider a distortion is the fact that today poorer, albeit theoretically more powerful, rulers are in fact over-influenced by richer private citizens, or much more often headless, self-referential institutions, cartels and circles, such as bankers and speculators,  without any office or answeerability or visibility, through corruption, lobbying, campaign financing, media control, etc. 


Actually, what distinguished medieval European (and Japanese) feudalism was that lords had a great deal of stability of inheritance and property rights (and so did "free men") compared to "absolute monarchies." The situation was quite different in the Middle East, for instance, where the ruler could and did replace "nobles", including appoint eunuch slaves to the positions of greatest power. Eunuchs and slaves were the extreme example of the perfect loyal drones. They had no lineage to protect, so they wouldn't fight for their own land rights, and since they owed their power directly to the calif or sultan, they protected him to protect themselves. This lack of secure lordly property rights, combined with polygyny (and no primogeniture) made Middle East politics much volatile than European politics. Essentially, there was a civil war every time the government changed from one king to the next.

Capitalism, like autism, is a spectrum. Even a little bit of respect for property rights is better than no respect, and a little bit more is better than a little.

By the way, the complaint that the greedy, money-grubbing rich and the conniving, scheming money-lenders have too much influence is not at all new, and long antedated the formal practice of capitalism. The complaint was heard all the time in the middle ages (in both Europe and the Middle East). Nor is there anything at all new (or noble) about the Occupy cries to "Behead the Bankers!" (and yes, I have heard this, seen it on a sign, and saw it repeated by a friend on Facebook.) This is just the same old, old, old ugly that resulted in pogroms against the Jews, who were hated because they were owed money. 

It's so much easier to kill your lender than to pay back loans? then as now.


From giulio at gmail.com  Mon Nov 14 17:10:40 2011
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 18:10:40 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Online talk next Sunday: Ken Hayworth on How to create a
 Connectome Observatory of the mouse brain and beyond
In-Reply-To: <CAKTCJyeE5FsvVUjOXvsh66L327jsw3nmgfFrt1rKkNrC08t62g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKTCJyc1B0GL7HfQ1=g5i0cvSBJ+PG40nTAVwWFGpndRQPOyqg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAKTCJyeE5FsvVUjOXvsh66L327jsw3nmgfFrt1rKkNrC08t62g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKTCJyfRNNVuZDmB7o2JMpjR=_4sXvLSaDvoG-7rBpE2pu8byw@mail.gmail.com>

Ken gave a GREAT talk yesterday.

Here is a writeup with video:
http://www.kurzweilai.net/a-connectome-observatory-for-nanoscale-brain-imaging

There are two videos, one recorded by Catarina Lamm and one by Eugen
Leitl, on Youtube, Blip.tv and Vimeo:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFA2q-tS5hk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zp1TlhxZQmk
http://blip.tv/telexlr8/v1-ken-hayworth-on-how-to-create-a-connectome-observatory-of-the-mouse-brain-and-beyond-openqwaq-november-13-2011-5734670
http://blip.tv/telexlr8/v2-ken-hayworth-on-how-to-create-a-connectome-observatory-of-the-mouse-brain-and-beyond-openqwaq-november-13-2011-5734653
http://vimeo.com/32086767
http://vimeo.com/32086247

On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 4:26 PM, Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:
> Reminder - Ken's talk is at 10am PST, 1pm EST, 7pm continental EU
>
> On Mon, Nov 7, 2011 at 7:08 PM, Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Ken Hayworth will give an online talk next Sunday Nov. 13 at 10am PST
>> in teleXLR8, on How to create a Connectome Observatory of the mouse
>> brain and beyond. If you wish to attend:
>> - If you have a teleXLR8 account created in 2011, you can just show up.
>> - If you have a teleXLR8 account created in 2010, I will need to
>> create a new account for you. Please contact me.
>> Please read: IMPORTANT ? invitations and logistics
>> http://telexlr8.wordpress.com/2011/08/19/important-invitations-and-logistics/
>>
>> How to create a Connectome Observatory of the mouse brain and beyond
>> http://www.kurzweilai.net/how-to-create-a-connectome-observatory-of-the-mouse-brain-and-beyond
>>
>> Dr. Kenneth Hayworth will present an online talk and Q/A on How to
>> create a Connectome Observatory of the mouse brain and beyond on
>> Sunday, November 13, at 10am PST.
>>
>> He will present a plan to map the mouse brain at very high resolution.
>>
>> The talk will be in teleXLR8, a 3D interactive video conferencing
>> space. Please contact the organizers if you wish to attend the talk.
>>
>> Hayworth is a postdoctoral fellow at Harvard University, a co-founder
>> of the Brain Preservation Foundation, and designer of the Automatic
>> Tape-Collecting Lathe Ultramicrotome (ATLUM), which could allow
>> efficient nanoscale imaging of brain tissues.
>>
>> ?In 100 years, if we have the technology to bring someone back, it
>> won?t be in a biological body,? he said in a New York Times article
>> last year. ?It is these scanning techniques and mind-uploading that, I
>> think, will bring people back. This is a taboo topic in the scientific
>> community. But we have a cure to death right here. Why aren?t we
>> pursuing it??
>>
>> See also:
>> Ken Hayworth on How to create a Connectome Observatory of the mouse
>> brain and beyond, OpenQwaq, November 13 2011, 10am PST | teleXLR8
>> http://telexlr8.wordpress.com/2011/09/24/ken-hayworth-on-how-to-create-a-connectome-observatory-of-the-mouse-brain-and-beyond-openqwaq-november-13-2011-10am-pst/
>>
>



From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Mon Nov 14 17:47:40 2011
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 18:47:40 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Money and Human Nature (was Re: Capitalism,
 anti capitalism, emotional arousal)
In-Reply-To: <C83D1454-E147-492E-ACCE-E7867F309CC5@taramayastales.com>
References: <CAPy8RwYcPYP-DGuqTkFmHpfCPQFqE==warBZw+TS3wjXUY1c9Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPoR7a4TYgSD=ZLQ_0oczPSAnsVjPnukb8SsP6NOAB=vS4SvXg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPy8RwZdHMGYw6LoZJVq4xxznGEwSm0OqOv19bZDnWNoQw1XVQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPoR7a7bZXAwnw7g=UFhEz7TY4fzJMrNnwXHFu_vMNjNs2B9AA@mail.gmail.com>
	<C83D1454-E147-492E-ACCE-E7867F309CC5@taramayastales.com>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a5t_haWGsAjWKyU2VukrmjZJnkjH50vMADjF8dsK35dyw@mail.gmail.com>

On 14 November 2011 17:04, Tara Maya <tara at taramayastales.com> wrote:

> Actually, what distinguished medieval European (and Japanese) feudalism
> was that lords had a great deal of stability of inheritance and property
> rights (and so did "free men") compared to "absolute monarchies." The
> situation was quite different in the Middle East, for instance, where the
> ruler could and did replace "nobles", including appoint eunuch slaves to
> the positions of greatest power. Eunuchs and slaves were the extreme
> example of the perfect loyal drones. They had no lineage to protect, so
> they wouldn't fight for their own land rights, and since they owed their
> power directly to the calif or sultan, they protected him to protect
> themselves. This lack of secure lordly property rights, combined with
> polygyny (and no primogeniture) made Middle East politics much volatile
> than European politics. Essentially, there was a civil war every time the
> government changed from one king to the next.
>

Interesting issues. As to Europe, I would say that there was a curve: the
counts (comites regis) were born as the king's fellows, then became
strictly hereditary - even though kings never waives their rights to create
new ones - and ended up being easily marginalised, if not removed, by
absolute monarchs and its bourgeois or lower-nobility bureaucrats. The
Middle East had no real concept of permanent ?lites, but at the same time
the Ottoman empire managed to remain the most powerful political entity
until the beginning of the XVIII century...

By the way, the complaint that the greedy, money-grubbing rich and the
> conniving, scheming money-lenders have too much influence is not at all
> new, and long antedated the formal practice of capitalism.


Yes. Then the "conniving, scheming money-lenders" won that battle, so the
complaint was all but extinguished unless in times of very acute crises. :-)

OTOH, it is stupid to blame banks for doing what they are created to do
under the rules under which they actually operate. Same as blaming rabbits
for eating grass, or foxes for eating rabbits. Moralistic approaches seldom
solve political approaches...

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From tara at taramayastales.com  Mon Nov 14 18:20:18 2011
From: tara at taramayastales.com (Tara Maya)
Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 10:20:18 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Money and Human Nature (was Re: Capitalism,
	anti capitalism, emotional arousal)
In-Reply-To: <CAPoR7a5t_haWGsAjWKyU2VukrmjZJnkjH50vMADjF8dsK35dyw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPy8RwYcPYP-DGuqTkFmHpfCPQFqE==warBZw+TS3wjXUY1c9Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPoR7a4TYgSD=ZLQ_0oczPSAnsVjPnukb8SsP6NOAB=vS4SvXg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPy8RwZdHMGYw6LoZJVq4xxznGEwSm0OqOv19bZDnWNoQw1XVQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPoR7a7bZXAwnw7g=UFhEz7TY4fzJMrNnwXHFu_vMNjNs2B9AA@mail.gmail.com>
	<C83D1454-E147-492E-ACCE-E7867F309CC5@taramayastales.com>
	<CAPoR7a5t_haWGsAjWKyU2VukrmjZJnkjH50vMADjF8dsK35dyw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A130CB2E-2CF2-407E-B6D7-E6C65BD7E479@taramayastales.com>


> Stefano:

> Yes. Then the "conniving, scheming money-lenders" won that battle, so the complaint was all but extinguished unless in times of very acute crises. :-)
> 
> OTOH, it is stupid to blame banks for doing what they are created to do under the rules under which they actually operate. Same as blaming rabbits for eating grass, or foxes for eating rabbits. Moralistic approaches seldom solve political approaches...


I see the arguments about money as similar to the arguments about sex. A few years ago, an Australian Muslim cleric outraged his fellow Australians by saying that unveiled women deserved to be raped, because they were like people who left meat out on the porch, which was eaten by a cat. One couldn't blame the cat for eating the meat -- the person to blame was the one who left out the meat. A lot of people were mad that he compared women to meat. For some reason, not that many people were outraged that he was also saying men have no more intelligence or self-restraint than cats.

I don't think anyone will deny that sex, like money, causes a lot of heartache for humanity. (Also the two issues most likely to break up a marriage.) 

For centuries, Western clerics shared exactly the same view of sexual misconduct as the Muslim cleric. The problem was women. The solution was to cover them up, hide them, control them and keep them off the streets and out of any place of power. Otherwise hanky-panky might ensue. Anyone who suggested that it was really unfair to take away women's freedom (and really, men's freedom as well) was accused of supporting rape, prostitution and adultery. 

Obviously, I don't support corrupt crony capitalism and back-room deals between corporate rent-seekers and the politicians they have in their pocket, anymore than I advocate adultery or want women to be raped. But I think it is outrageous to take away someone's economic freedom as a "solution" to these problems. Especially since, as it turns out, it doesn't work to stop corruption anyway -- anymore than veiling women stops rape. Just the opposite...the countries with the most sexual equality have the lowest rape rates.

Earlier we had a discussion about coercion, which I was not able to comment on. It is a tremendous mistake to confuse coercion with temptation. Coercion squashes out individual responsibility. People acquire learned helplessness after repeatedly being controlled from the outside. But people who are free to make the own decisions, who must learn the hard way to resist temptation, learn to become responsible and ethical. It is true, not everyone will resist temptation. If alcohol is legal, you will end up with drunks, but this is still better than if it is illegal... then you end up with drunks AND mafia. 

Reform to try to weed out the corrupt and the criminal in big business and big government, I welcome. But it's fat cats who should be punished for eating the cream, not the cow for giving milk.
 




From anders at aleph.se  Mon Nov 14 23:12:41 2011
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 23:12:41 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Morality research
In-Reply-To: <20111114111753.GD31847@leitl.org>
References: <1321265276.53277.YahooMailClassic@web114408.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>	<4EC0F6D6.3000807@aleph.se>
	<20111114111753.GD31847@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <4EC1A069.5070209@aleph.se>

Eugen Leitl wrote:
> On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 11:09:10AM +0000, Anders Sandberg wrote:
>
>   
>> One of the interesting things to watch is how people who actually work  
>> on 'friendly AI' reinvent or rediscover chunks of old philosophy. The  
>>     
>
> You don't consider Friendly AI meaningless? 
>   

I think it is unlikely to work ('it' being safe-by-design AI; 
friendliness was just the first iteration, CEV the second, and now we 
have a plethora in Nick's manuscript). But it remains an important 
question in the fledgling field of superintelligence studies. We should 
pray that intelligence takeoffs are soft, given the difficulty of AI 
safety.


>> The problem happens when you don't think there is anything worth looking  
>> at in the old discipline, since obviously your fresh approach is going  
>> to cut through all that messy stuff. After all, they can't have thought  
>>     
>
> How did the old philosophers deal with the idea of some (but not all)
> humans becoming literal gods?
>   

I don't know the actual stoic or epicurean writings, but I think they 
actually discussed the topic. I think Lucretius would say it would be a 
very good thing if humans could become gods (who live in a sort of 
tranquil Nirvana that humans should aspire to). The ancient Greeks of 
course felt that one could achieve immortality (not necessarily just 
figurative) through excellence and heroism. Romans even had a special 
category divus for ex-mortals, separate from the deus category of a god.

We might of course care more about the rights and obligations of godhood 
than the virtues. But even here the classical ethics arguments seem to 
apply: Plato's Euthyphro dilemma would seem to imply that unless you 
manage to become a very metaphysically powerful god that can "make" 
morality as you wish, you would still be bound by universal laws of 
morality (or social contracts). So the Voltaire-Uncle Ben dictum "with 
great power comes great responsibility" might indeed apply...

(And let's not forget Empedocles memorable attempt at apotheosis...)

-- 
Anders Sandberg,
Future of Humanity Institute 
Oxford Martin School 
Faculty of Philosophy 
Oxford University 



From anders at aleph.se  Mon Nov 14 23:17:58 2011
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 23:17:58 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Online talk next Sunday: Ken Hayworth on How to create a
 Connectome Observatory of the mouse brain and beyond
In-Reply-To: <CAKTCJyfRNNVuZDmB7o2JMpjR=_4sXvLSaDvoG-7rBpE2pu8byw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKTCJyc1B0GL7HfQ1=g5i0cvSBJ+PG40nTAVwWFGpndRQPOyqg@mail.gmail.com>	<CAKTCJyeE5FsvVUjOXvsh66L327jsw3nmgfFrt1rKkNrC08t62g@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAKTCJyfRNNVuZDmB7o2JMpjR=_4sXvLSaDvoG-7rBpE2pu8byw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4EC1A1A6.4020404@aleph.se>

Giulio Prisco wrote:
> Ken gave a GREAT talk yesterday.
>   

Seconded. I was amazed by it, despite both being late and thinking I 
knew what the state of art was. Wow.

-- 
Anders Sandberg,
Future of Humanity Institute 
Oxford Martin School 
Faculty of Philosophy 
Oxford University 



From eugen at leitl.org  Tue Nov 15 11:44:00 2011
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 12:44:00 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Online talk next Sunday: Ken Hayworth on How to create
	a	Connectome Observatory of the mouse brain and beyond
In-Reply-To: <4EC1A1A6.4020404@aleph.se>
References: <CAKTCJyc1B0GL7HfQ1=g5i0cvSBJ+PG40nTAVwWFGpndRQPOyqg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAKTCJyeE5FsvVUjOXvsh66L327jsw3nmgfFrt1rKkNrC08t62g@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAKTCJyfRNNVuZDmB7o2JMpjR=_4sXvLSaDvoG-7rBpE2pu8byw@mail.gmail.com>
	<4EC1A1A6.4020404@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <20111115114400.GR31847@leitl.org>

On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 11:17:58PM +0000, Anders Sandberg wrote:
> Giulio Prisco wrote:
>> Ken gave a GREAT talk yesterday.
>>   
>
> Seconded. I was amazed by it, despite both being late and thinking I  
> knew what the state of art was. Wow.

The 10 MUSD required for the next generation of his scanner is
easily the best money spent in all of connectomics. I hope Ken won't
have any difficulties in funding it.

At such resolutions volumetric data storage becomes a problem.
With the current technology small installations beyond 10 PByte
will start costing some money, and a 1 cm^3 scan with 5 nm
resolution will produce some exabyte uncompressed. Volumetric
data set compression (e.g. with wavelets) would make it more
manageable, but will definitely have a negative impact on
feature segmentation and tracing. 

On the other hand, storage should become noticeably denser
in the next 5-10 years, so a mouse brain with that resolution
would be within reach.

-- 
Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE


From giulio at gmail.com  Tue Nov 15 11:59:24 2011
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 12:59:24 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Online talk next Sunday: Ken Hayworth on How to create a
 Connectome Observatory of the mouse brain and beyond
In-Reply-To: <20111115114400.GR31847@leitl.org>
References: <CAKTCJyc1B0GL7HfQ1=g5i0cvSBJ+PG40nTAVwWFGpndRQPOyqg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAKTCJyeE5FsvVUjOXvsh66L327jsw3nmgfFrt1rKkNrC08t62g@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAKTCJyfRNNVuZDmB7o2JMpjR=_4sXvLSaDvoG-7rBpE2pu8byw@mail.gmail.com>
	<4EC1A1A6.4020404@aleph.se> <20111115114400.GR31847@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <CAKTCJyfxKa6dCjtrZHV8raKJSDiiCmJOAEVpiYgFQPcqHKc2Dw@mail.gmail.com>

How much bigger is a human brain than a mouse brain? Like 500-1000 times?

Of course the mouse connectome observer is absolutely fascinating, but
we really want to this for humans.

According to Ken, the required resolution can be achieved NOW (and can
only improve). So we just need to build operational pipelines for
preparation, readout and storage and medical research facilities (and
regulations or better absence thereof) able to preserve brains with
sufficient accuracy for future readout.

On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 12:44 PM, Eugen Leitl <eugen at leitl.org> wrote:
> On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 11:17:58PM +0000, Anders Sandberg wrote:
>> Giulio Prisco wrote:
>>> Ken gave a GREAT talk yesterday.
>>>
>>
>> Seconded. I was amazed by it, despite both being late and thinking I
>> knew what the state of art was. Wow.
>
> The 10 MUSD required for the next generation of his scanner is
> easily the best money spent in all of connectomics. I hope Ken won't
> have any difficulties in funding it.
>
> At such resolutions volumetric data storage becomes a problem.
> With the current technology small installations beyond 10 PByte
> will start costing some money, and a 1 cm^3 scan with 5 nm
> resolution will produce some exabyte uncompressed. Volumetric
> data set compression (e.g. with wavelets) would make it more
> manageable, but will definitely have a negative impact on
> feature segmentation and tracing.
>
> On the other hand, storage should become noticeably denser
> in the next 5-10 years, so a mouse brain with that resolution
> would be within reach.
>
> --
> Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org
> ______________________________________________________________
> ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org
> 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A ?7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>



From eugen at leitl.org  Tue Nov 15 12:44:27 2011
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 13:44:27 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Online talk next Sunday: Ken Hayworth on How to create
	a	Connectome Observatory of the mouse brain and beyond
In-Reply-To: <CAKTCJyfxKa6dCjtrZHV8raKJSDiiCmJOAEVpiYgFQPcqHKc2Dw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKTCJyc1B0GL7HfQ1=g5i0cvSBJ+PG40nTAVwWFGpndRQPOyqg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAKTCJyeE5FsvVUjOXvsh66L327jsw3nmgfFrt1rKkNrC08t62g@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAKTCJyfRNNVuZDmB7o2JMpjR=_4sXvLSaDvoG-7rBpE2pu8byw@mail.gmail.com>
	<4EC1A1A6.4020404@aleph.se> <20111115114400.GR31847@leitl.org>
	<CAKTCJyfxKa6dCjtrZHV8raKJSDiiCmJOAEVpiYgFQPcqHKc2Dw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20111115124427.GV31847@leitl.org>

On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 12:59:24PM +0100, Giulio Prisco wrote:
> How much bigger is a human brain than a mouse brain? Like 500-1000 times?

Roughly three orders of magnitude. I expect Avogadro-scale
computing within my lifetime, so storage and processing is
about the least of my worries.
 
> Of course the mouse connectome observer is absolutely fascinating, but
> we really want to this for humans.

I see no fundamental problems with scaling up scanning
and storage/processing-wise (all assuming the resolution is
enough; the only way to know is to succeed).

The only issues I see is with sample preparation. Aldehyde
crosslinking via vascular perfusion should work, but anything
involving diffusion (soaking) is not going to work without
presectioning just after first fixation (preparation would
be identical to rodent brains after). Osmium tetroxide (lipid
bilayer fixative) via vascular perfusion might or might not 
work, heavy metal stains probably wouldn't work and I very 
much doubt the gradient dehydration and loading with monomer
and subsequent polymerization would work. At this point a literature
review and/or practical lab work is warranted.

I would like to point to this post on Mike Darwin's blog
(search for amber):
http://chronopause.com/index.php/2011/04/19/cryonics-nanotechnology-and-transhumanism-utopia-then-and-now/

...

If nanotechnology had stayed nanotechnology, instead of becoming
Nanotechnology, then it would all have been to the good. By way of
analogy, I?m not irrevocably wed to the idea of cryopreservation. I
have no emotional investment in low temperatures and on the contrary,
the need to maintain such an extreme and costly environment without
any break or interruption, scares the hell out of me. I?d much prefer
a preservation approach that has been validated over ~45 million
years, such as the demonstrated preservation of cellular
ultrastructure in glasses at ambient temperature, in the form plant
and animal tissues preserved in amber.

Buthidae: Scorpiones in Dominican Amber ~25-40 Million Years Old
[Poinar G and Poinar R.  The Quest for Life in Amber, Addison-Wesley,
Reading, MA, 1994.]

Plant Cell Ultra-structure in Baltic Amber ~45 Million Years Old:
Transmission electron micrographs of ultrathin cross-sections of the
amber cypress tissue. (a) Section of a parenchyma cell with a
chloroplast, the double membrane envelope (env), thylakoid membranes
(th) and large plastoglobuli (pg), membranes of the endoplasmic
reticulum (er), the golgi aparatus (g), the plasmalemma (pl) and part
of a mitochondrion (m). (b) Crosssection of a mitochondrion with the
outer envelope (env) and cristae (cr). (c) Cross-section of a
double-bordered pit from a tracheid-like cell with fine structures of
the primary and secondary cell walls. Size bars: (a) 500 nm; (b) 200
nm; (c) 1 mm.Cypress  [Proc. R. Soc. B272, 121?126 (2005)]

And if such an approach is ever developed, I?ll give it every
consideration, with no ego or emotional attachment to
cryopreservation.
 
> According to Ken, the required resolution can be achieved NOW (and can

I believe Ken that 5 nm voxels can be reached eventually; I'm dubious
that that resolution alone with electron microcopy data (heavy metal
stain) will be enough. This particular pudding is unconsumed yet.

> only improve). So we just need to build operational pipelines for
> preparation, readout and storage and medical research facilities (and

You can do fine with mice for the next decade at least, as far
as scanning and processing is concerned. 

> regulations or better absence thereof) able to preserve brains with
> sufficient accuracy for future readout.
> 
> On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 12:44 PM, Eugen Leitl <eugen at leitl.org> wrote:
> > On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 11:17:58PM +0000, Anders Sandberg wrote:
> >> Giulio Prisco wrote:
> >>> Ken gave a GREAT talk yesterday.
> >>>
> >>
> >> Seconded. I was amazed by it, despite both being late and thinking I
> >> knew what the state of art was. Wow.
> >
> > The 10 MUSD required for the next generation of his scanner is
> > easily the best money spent in all of connectomics. I hope Ken won't
> > have any difficulties in funding it.
> >
> > At such resolutions volumetric data storage becomes a problem.
> > With the current technology small installations beyond 10 PByte
> > will start costing some money, and a 1 cm^3 scan with 5 nm
> > resolution will produce some exabyte uncompressed. Volumetric
> > data set compression (e.g. with wavelets) would make it more
> > manageable, but will definitely have a negative impact on
> > feature segmentation and tracing.
> >
> > On the other hand, storage should become noticeably denser
> > in the next 5-10 years, so a mouse brain with that resolution
> > would be within reach.
> >
> > --
> > Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org
> > ______________________________________________________________
> > ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org
> > 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A ?7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE
> > _______________________________________________
> > extropy-chat mailing list
> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> >
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
-- 
Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE


From jonkc at bellsouth.net  Tue Nov 15 16:06:58 2011
From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (john clark)
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 08:06:58 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ExI] The best video of Earth from space I have seen
In-Reply-To: <CAKTCJyfxKa6dCjtrZHV8raKJSDiiCmJOAEVpiYgFQPcqHKc2Dw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1321373218.48999.YahooMailClassic@web82903.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

http://vimeo.com/32001208

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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Tue Nov 15 16:41:36 2011
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 17:41:36 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Online talk next Sunday: Ken Hayworth on How to create a
 Connectome Observatory of the mouse brain and beyond
In-Reply-To: <CAKTCJyfxKa6dCjtrZHV8raKJSDiiCmJOAEVpiYgFQPcqHKc2Dw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKTCJyc1B0GL7HfQ1=g5i0cvSBJ+PG40nTAVwWFGpndRQPOyqg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAKTCJyeE5FsvVUjOXvsh66L327jsw3nmgfFrt1rKkNrC08t62g@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAKTCJyfRNNVuZDmB7o2JMpjR=_4sXvLSaDvoG-7rBpE2pu8byw@mail.gmail.com>
	<4EC1A1A6.4020404@aleph.se> <20111115114400.GR31847@leitl.org>
	<CAKTCJyfxKa6dCjtrZHV8raKJSDiiCmJOAEVpiYgFQPcqHKc2Dw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a7rG6VH0+P=36vR9y=1Z8ouJA14MpDUmZzUukbp-ht0MQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 15 November 2011 12:59, Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:

> Of course the mouse connectome observer is absolutely fascinating, but
> we really want to this for humans.
>

Absolutely, even though this may appear not really a priority for
transmousianists amongs us. :-)

Seriously, isn't there a text version of the thing somewhere? I do not
appear ever to find the time necessary to watch videos these days... :-(

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From kellycoinguy at gmail.com  Wed Nov 16 04:41:04 2011
From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 21:41:04 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Money and Human Nature (was Re: Capitalism,
 anti capitalism, emotional arousal)
In-Reply-To: <CAPoR7a7bZXAwnw7g=UFhEz7TY4fzJMrNnwXHFu_vMNjNs2B9AA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPy8RwYcPYP-DGuqTkFmHpfCPQFqE==warBZw+TS3wjXUY1c9Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPoR7a4TYgSD=ZLQ_0oczPSAnsVjPnukb8SsP6NOAB=vS4SvXg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPy8RwZdHMGYw6LoZJVq4xxznGEwSm0OqOv19bZDnWNoQw1XVQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPoR7a7bZXAwnw7g=UFhEz7TY4fzJMrNnwXHFu_vMNjNs2B9AA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPy8Rwa7M88cVF70yci1H08cAOYZHcXQob0UPdc7-agVQptFtg@mail.gmail.com>

2011/11/14 Stefano Vaj <stefano.vaj at gmail.com>:
> On 14 November 2011 02:34, Kelly Anderson <kellycoinguy at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Wasn't this because the ruling class in Sparta were warriors? And
>> weren't they due a living by the rest of society? So, in effect, they
>> owned whatever they needed... whenever they needed it... right? They
>> were the elites.
>
> They certainly were the ?lite, but could not legally by any means become
> owners of anything. But the idea that an ?lite may be poorer that the people
> they rule on is certainly not unheard of. Think of Jesuites, for instance.
> Even at the acme of their influence, no matter how powerful they were
> individually or as an order, their vows (povery, obedience, chastity)
> prevented them from having any property at all in their name.
>
> This is not a legal fiction. It actually means you cannot inherit, you
> cannot sell or buy anything, you cannot have heirs, you cannot prevent the
> order from taking away anything you may be using. And in principle (albeit
> not always in practice) it means that your lifestyle should be, well,...
> spartan.

I am not an expert on the Jesuits... I wonder though, did they starve
first when famine hit, or last? And what other way was there at the
time to pursue a life of book learning? While they did not own
anything, the Jesuits had a fairly good lifestyle, given the state of
the overall economy of the times (most of those times, that is)...
Yes, they lived in a state of physical impoverishment... and yes, they
lived lives of physical labor... but compared to the lives of the serf
farmers around them, I don't think it was all that bad... from what
little I know about it.

> European aristocracies, OTOH, used certainly to have a more lavish
> lifestyle. But even there, at the origins of feodalism, you were not the
> owner of the land you ruled on, and the king (or the higher vassal) could
> take it away at any moment if you did not perform the duties for which it
> was entrusted to you: military protection, economic production, enforcement
> of laws, administration of justice, resolution of conflicts, collection of
> taxes... Paradoxically, it was the new ideas brought by capitalism that
> achieved to make them essentially parasitic classes, especially in
> continental Europe.

Interesting.

> Moreover, the idea is still widespread in the West that those who (at least
> officially) rule a country need not be the richest people in that country,
> or even that they should forfeit the control of any significant assets they
> may have during office.

Yes, though the retirement benefits for US politicians are
considerable. Lavish speaking fees have made the Clintons rich. Even a
one term congressman gets a nice little retirement package... as well
as a lucrati e lobbying job, if he wants it.

> What many consider a distortion is the fact that today poorer, albeit
> theoretically more powerful, rulers are in fact over-influenced by richer
> private citizens, or much more often headless, self-referential
> institutions, cartels and circles, such as bankers and speculators,? without
> any office or answeerability or visibility, through corruption, lobbying,
> campaign financing, media control, etc.

I don't like these aspects of the current system any more than the OWS
people... I just propose a different solution... large doses of
freedom.

> Mr. Berlusconi's rule in Italy was an exception in that he was essentially
> accused of being a corruptor rather than a corruptee... :-)

Ya, there is always the exception to the rule. Glad he's gone.
Khadaffi, Castro and Hussein too...

>> Even the Spartan warriors could not exist without the money that was
>> exchanged by the underclasses.
>
> Sure. In the broadest sense, a symbolic accounting system has never been
> abandoned anywhere it has ever been adopted.

I believe that is the case... although I'm sure there are exceptions
to that rule as well...

On the Yap islands "coins" were multi-ton doughnut shaped stones that
weren't moved when exchanged... just the understanding of who owned
that particular "coin" changed... LOL... the system is today used only
symbolically, for example in a dowry, and dollars have taken the place
of the stones for day to day exchange... perhaps this is better an
example of devaluation of a currency than giving up trading... LOL

I'll keep trying to think of an example, but it isn't easy for sure.

-Kelly



From kellycoinguy at gmail.com  Wed Nov 16 04:52:07 2011
From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 21:52:07 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Money and Human Nature (was Re: Capitalism,
 anti capitalism, emotional arousal)
In-Reply-To: <C83D1454-E147-492E-ACCE-E7867F309CC5@taramayastales.com>
References: <CAPy8RwYcPYP-DGuqTkFmHpfCPQFqE==warBZw+TS3wjXUY1c9Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPoR7a4TYgSD=ZLQ_0oczPSAnsVjPnukb8SsP6NOAB=vS4SvXg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPy8RwZdHMGYw6LoZJVq4xxznGEwSm0OqOv19bZDnWNoQw1XVQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPoR7a7bZXAwnw7g=UFhEz7TY4fzJMrNnwXHFu_vMNjNs2B9AA@mail.gmail.com>
	<C83D1454-E147-492E-ACCE-E7867F309CC5@taramayastales.com>
Message-ID: <CAPy8RwZoPZ9HnVKaHDEth7rNuqu0=q=WOJAcjhbJkffNUD4a7A@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 9:04 AM, Tara Maya <tara at taramayastales.com> wrote:
>"Behead the Bankers!" (and yes, I have heard this, seen it on a sign, and
>saw it repeated by a friend on Facebook.) This is just the same old, old,
>old ugly that resulted in pogroms against the Jews, who were hated
>because they were owed money.
>
>It's so much easier to kill your lender than to pay back loans? then as
>now.

The Jews got into this position because all of the Islamic world and
from time to time parts of the Christian world eschewed the charging
of usury (interest) for loans. In addition, the Catholics had an
occasional Jubilee year in which debtors may have been forgiven in
some cases... (though I cannot find a specific reference to this fact
right now). In any case, since the Jews were the only ones that
weren't prohibited religiously from charging interest in many times
and places, they often became the bankers. After all, what interest do
you have in loaning money at par? (pun intended)

And yes, there is nothing new about the hatred of bankers... though
they have invented many new reasons for the people to be pissed off at
the these days...

-Kelly



From kellycoinguy at gmail.com  Wed Nov 16 05:14:40 2011
From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 22:14:40 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Consensus (was Capitalism, etc.)
In-Reply-To: <38A43BB3-0875-4990-9AB4-FA7CA55ABA3A@taramayastales.com>
References: <BF7498ED-47C3-4434-B841-95AF22F61F8F@alumni.Virginia.edu>
	<CAPoR7a5YXDGmfYzZS1ERLxqw8v26iqcdSoByU6d+cZhEpQoJHg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+LBAbS4EPozxcm5LuX6Avm6gPz0=zsjoQOAWLE8ViA=M+su7A@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPy8RwYb2+4w5werWHme-t03-cq2LEuTG_bNj_3gSHjM4ypePA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAL+RtPcc4iZCcOjCk7T5GQZXd1+xTrtdzOc5C4+8Ay9ELLL6NA@mail.gmail.com>
	<02cc01cca17b$f5b3c370$e11b4a50$@att.net>
	<CAL+RtPcQWqCX0gDYZ5rkK9om36ixLwLpG3i0Qg-gZwwDQVGtJA@mail.gmail.com>
	<02ec01cca184$d1631b70$74295250$@att.net>
	<CAL+RtPeFz2+G0JTHwoC+agUxQAwhaE5zSV5dbwGRGrXh6kDiqA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAL+RtPd=gDv-DZsr2uDR=k7gRQ69GZEK9q6HDWVv+Q0EJRVRbA@mail.gmail.com>
	<38A43BB3-0875-4990-9AB4-FA7CA55ABA3A@taramayastales.com>
Message-ID: <CAPy8RwbM+D4U0RWa1rss2hA5k5Z+7DbrdxvsEbP+SeyxWjV4Ow@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 5:22 PM, Tara Maya <tara at taramayastales.com> wrote:
> On Nov 12, 2011, at 2:22 PM, Giovanni Santostasi wrote:
>
> This governing method is called "consensus decision making" or sometimes, more vaguely, "direct democracy" or "leaderless government."
> Sadly, this is not at all unusual for so-called "consensus decision."

Fascinating description of an alternative system and how it might work...

> I did have an idea for a system which possibly could take good aspects of classic democracy and good aspects of CDM. Political leaders would not be career-politicians, but would be chosen randomly from the citizens... the way juries are today. Individuals could be called up to governing duty exactly the way we are today called up for jury duty, and perhaps there would also be a provision for eliminating some individuals from governing duty if they were deemed unfit. (I am a bit unsure on this point, since it begs the question, who would do the weeding out? The previous governing team? Lawyers and judges? Appointed staff?) These teams would debate and pass laws, exactly like Congress does today, and would also be divided into executive and legislative branches of the government.
>
> Now, would this be an improvement over our present system? I have no idea. There would still the temptation for interest groups to bribe and bully the governing teams. It might be worse than democracy. But even if it were better, it certainly would not usher in a utopia, since humans would be involved.
>

I've heard this idea before... and at first blush it would seem that
randomly selected individuals would do a better job than the bunch in
Washington today. The problem in practice would seem to be that it
would build up a bureaucracy around the random individuals, and you
would end up with the lifer bureaucrats running things because the
poor randomly chosen individuals would have nobody else to turn to for
good advise.

In reality, much of Washington is today run by the career
bureaucrats... and they don't change from administration to
administration because nobody could get up to speed on the tremendous
amount of red tape that has been created that locks these folks in.
Republican or Democrat, after the top level few thousand people are
appointed in a given administration, it's the same tired folks from
there down decade after decade... and that's a big problem when you
talk about trying to change Washington.

-Kelly



From kellycoinguy at gmail.com  Wed Nov 16 05:20:33 2011
From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 22:20:33 -0700
Subject: [ExI] OWS Rolling in the Mud
In-Reply-To: <CAEUzo3J8tjaYxodRAn9oxmN8UHp=+q3uTXeaL7jjEzaExRM7VQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEUzo3J8tjaYxodRAn9oxmN8UHp=+q3uTXeaL7jjEzaExRM7VQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPy8RwYqWiUdSGF645xMjqzPNRe=_ytN5MRD0CCK1q816FpauA@mail.gmail.com>

2011/11/13 Kevin G Haskell <kgh1kgh2 at gmail.com>:
> Giovanni Santostasi's first reply to Kevin G Haskell, and Kevin's response:
> There would be a lot more types of people like Steve Jobs if people were
> properly educated in our public schools on how to start and effectively run
> businesses.? They don't, so most creative people feel confined to practicing
> within the career they were were trained within, and not taking those skills
> to a higher level to expanding it.

On December 1st, I am going to a fifth grade all day exercise where
they set up little mini businesses, and try to make a microcosm of
capitalism for the day. I will be sure and report back how well they
are educating the fifth graders. Interestingly, my son is a special
needs student, and he is still invited as long as I escort him. That's
pretty cool from my point of view.

So, perhaps this sort of education is not entirely dead... just "mostly dead"...

-Kelly



From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Wed Nov 16 07:54:21 2011
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 00:54:21 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The best video of Earth from space I have seen
In-Reply-To: <1321373218.48999.YahooMailClassic@web82903.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <CAKTCJyfxKa6dCjtrZHV8raKJSDiiCmJOAEVpiYgFQPcqHKc2Dw@mail.gmail.com>
	<1321373218.48999.YahooMailClassic@web82903.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy3L+G9JcrcLPAauveCLqi=twxu7H7+Tk3NZsZDPFLigKA@mail.gmail.com>

Absolutely stunning!  I'm so glad you shared this with the list.  : )

http://vimeo.com/32001208


John
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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Wed Nov 16 11:00:55 2011
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 12:00:55 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Money and Human Nature (was Re: Capitalism,
 anti capitalism, emotional arousal)
In-Reply-To: <CAPy8Rwa7M88cVF70yci1H08cAOYZHcXQob0UPdc7-agVQptFtg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPy8RwYcPYP-DGuqTkFmHpfCPQFqE==warBZw+TS3wjXUY1c9Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPoR7a4TYgSD=ZLQ_0oczPSAnsVjPnukb8SsP6NOAB=vS4SvXg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPy8RwZdHMGYw6LoZJVq4xxznGEwSm0OqOv19bZDnWNoQw1XVQ@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAPoR7a5nL4k8HfBWWmooBPeh47xEMz6KOg+gvdj4kNrx6HiuHw@mail.gmail.com>

On 16 November 2011 05:41, Kelly Anderson <kellycoinguy at gmail.com> wrote:

> I am not an expert on the Jesuits... I wonder though, did they starve
> first when famine hit, or last?


Well, Libertarians would be the first to point you to the difference
between relatively well-fed members of a communist society, including eg
the Soviet Union of the fifties and the sixties,  and even incompetent or
unlucky poor members of an ideal capitalist society. The latter can do
whatever they like with whatever they may own; the former simply are simply
maintained, not necessarily on egalitarian terms, with resources on which
they have no private control and for which they are answerable at any time.

And what other way was there at the
> time to pursue a life of book learning?


The same way as a researcher in Krusciov's Russia. Abolition of private
property of course does not mean that collective property is equally
abolished.


> Yes, though the retirement benefits for US politicians are
> considerable. Lavish speaking fees have made the Clintons rich. Even a
> one term congressman gets a nice little retirement package... as well
> as a lucrati e lobbying job, if he wants it.
>

Yes, they are granted/grant themselves a position firmly and permanently
entrenching them in the middle class. But this is peanuts, and I am not
aware of any Western statesman other than Mr. Berlusconi who has personal
assets of a scale making him independently powerful.


> Ya, there is always the exception to the rule. Glad he's gone.
> Khadaffi, Castro and Hussein too...
>

One wonders if this is really going to be invariably true for their
respective peoples... :-)

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From kellycoinguy at gmail.com  Wed Nov 16 17:43:41 2011
From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 10:43:41 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Money and Human Nature (was Re: Capitalism,
 anti capitalism, emotional arousal)
In-Reply-To: <CAPoR7a5nL4k8HfBWWmooBPeh47xEMz6KOg+gvdj4kNrx6HiuHw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPy8RwYcPYP-DGuqTkFmHpfCPQFqE==warBZw+TS3wjXUY1c9Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPoR7a4TYgSD=ZLQ_0oczPSAnsVjPnukb8SsP6NOAB=vS4SvXg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPy8RwZdHMGYw6LoZJVq4xxznGEwSm0OqOv19bZDnWNoQw1XVQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPoR7a7bZXAwnw7g=UFhEz7TY4fzJMrNnwXHFu_vMNjNs2B9AA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPy8Rwa7M88cVF70yci1H08cAOYZHcXQob0UPdc7-agVQptFtg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPoR7a5nL4k8HfBWWmooBPeh47xEMz6KOg+gvdj4kNrx6HiuHw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPy8RwYj1RH43gykfmbXD03_R4-077qib--bSHJSB+hsMVnB4Q@mail.gmail.com>

2011/11/16 Stefano Vaj <stefano.vaj at gmail.com>:
> On 16 November 2011 05:41, Kelly Anderson <kellycoinguy at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I am not an expert on the Jesuits... I wonder though, did they starve
>> first when famine hit, or last?
>
> Well, Libertarians would be the first to point you to the difference between
> relatively well-fed members of a communist society, including eg the Soviet
> Union of the fifties and the sixties,? and even incompetent or unlucky poor
> members of an ideal capitalist society. The latter can do whatever they like
> with whatever they may own; the former simply are simply maintained, not
> necessarily on egalitarian terms, with resources on which they have no
> private control and for which they are answerable at any time.

Yes, better a pauper in America than a rich man in the former USSR...

>> And what other way was there at the
>> time to pursue a life of book learning?
>
> The same way as a researcher in Krusciov's Russia. Abolition of private
> property of course does not mean that collective property is equally
> abolished.

Sorry, you lost me on this one...

>> Yes, though the retirement benefits for US politicians are
>> considerable. Lavish speaking fees have made the Clintons rich. Even a
>> one term congressman gets a nice little retirement package... as well
>> as a lucrati e lobbying job, if he wants it.
>
> Yes, they are granted/grant themselves a position firmly and permanently
> entrenching them in the middle class. But this is peanuts, and I am not
> aware of any Western statesman other than Mr. Berlusconi who has personal
> assets of a scale making him independently powerful.

Yes, but you can't deny that former president Clinton is powerful.
Even Al Gore is powerful... and he didn't even win his run... barely.

>> Ya, there is always the exception to the rule. Glad he's gone.
>> Khadaffi, Castro and Hussein too...
>
> One wonders if this is really going to be invariably true for their
> respective peoples... :-)

I'm with you on that Stefano... I'm really worried about the eventual
outcome of the Arab Spring movement... could end up with a bunch of
Irans at the other end of the pipe... scary.

Even the Italians aren't guaranteed better... in fact they are most
certainly going to go through worse before it gets better. i hope they
are patient, and that there isn't too much of a brain drain while it's
bad...

-Kelly



From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Wed Nov 16 20:56:07 2011
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 21:56:07 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Money and Human Nature (was Re: Capitalism,
 anti capitalism, emotional arousal)
In-Reply-To: <CAPy8RwYj1RH43gykfmbXD03_R4-077qib--bSHJSB+hsMVnB4Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPy8RwYcPYP-DGuqTkFmHpfCPQFqE==warBZw+TS3wjXUY1c9Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPoR7a4TYgSD=ZLQ_0oczPSAnsVjPnukb8SsP6NOAB=vS4SvXg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPy8RwZdHMGYw6LoZJVq4xxznGEwSm0OqOv19bZDnWNoQw1XVQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPoR7a7bZXAwnw7g=UFhEz7TY4fzJMrNnwXHFu_vMNjNs2B9AA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPy8Rwa7M88cVF70yci1H08cAOYZHcXQob0UPdc7-agVQptFtg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPoR7a5nL4k8HfBWWmooBPeh47xEMz6KOg+gvdj4kNrx6HiuHw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPy8RwYj1RH43gykfmbXD03_R4-077qib--bSHJSB+hsMVnB4Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a53mqv6bTLCykFradWa3wkvhiSFHYHW9ig92txjzFK+ag@mail.gmail.com>

On 16 November 2011 18:43, Kelly Anderson <kellycoinguy at gmail.com> wrote:

> Yes, better a pauper in America than a rich man in the former USSR...
>

One POV, but my point is another, namely that they do not compare. Enjoying
a relatively lavisher lifestyle does not mean that you "own" anything
yourself. A trophy wife with an appropriate pre-nuptial in the US may feed
herself just on caviar and Dom Perignon, and yet she may not even own her
pants.

 > The same way as a researcher in Krusciov's Russia. Abolition of private
> > property of course does not mean that collective property is equally
> > abolished.
>
> Sorry, you lost me on this one...
>

The Jesuit Order may be very rich. USSR or the Party might have been very
rich. This allows them to have members devoting their life to unproductive,
esoteric tasks. This does not mean that those doing so are "rich" in any
capitalistic sense.

Yes, but you can't deny that former president Clinton is powerful.
> Even Al Gore is powerful... and he didn't even win his run... barely.
>

Mmhhh. Depends on one's definition of power. Certainly their personal worth
is not really relevant. But yes, they might (still) be opinion leaders.

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From pharos at gmail.com  Thu Nov 17 11:56:13 2011
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 11:56:13 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Found! The first atoms in the Universe
Message-ID: <CAL_armgysFau9tUKRnFCAUbDiyidTWfs0DSDw0icnT+TGBEYhQ@mail.gmail.com>

Quote:
The brightest, most luminous objects visible in the farthest reaches
of the distant Universe are quasars, a good number of which are
visible right at the very end stages of reionization -- when light
becomes transparent to matter -- in the Universe. In a serendipitous
stroke of good luck, after 58 years of quasar spectroscopy, the above
team of Fumagalli, O'Meara and Prochaska found two clouds of pristine,
unpolluted gas from the Big Bang in the spectra of their quasars!

<http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2011/11/found_the_first_atoms_in_the_u.php>

So this is not only the least polluted, most pristine sample of atoms
we've ever found, it's also the newest, best test we've ever conducted
as to whether the abundances of these light elements -- from the
strength of their spectral absorption lines -- matches up with the
predictions of the Big Bang!

And that's how we found the very first atoms in the Universe, and how
they -- yet again -- proved another prediction of the Big Bang
correct!




BillK


From painlord2k at libero.it  Thu Nov 17 13:36:13 2011
From: painlord2k at libero.it (Mirco Romanato)
Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 14:36:13 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Money and Human Nature (was Re: Capitalism,
 anti capitalism, emotional arousal)
In-Reply-To: <CAGSKFy3vFECQk7GjzmwvJ6o64ZHkmP-sMSO8d1Juswe+9S+-2Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPy8RwYcPYP-DGuqTkFmHpfCPQFqE==warBZw+TS3wjXUY1c9Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPoR7a4TYgSD=ZLQ_0oczPSAnsVjPnukb8SsP6NOAB=vS4SvXg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPy8RwZdHMGYw6LoZJVq4xxznGEwSm0OqOv19bZDnWNoQw1XVQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPy8RwbagWUJqDw2e6W8OMuU-VmBc-fDhQSiDMqiGE03fxyByQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAGSKFy3vFECQk7GjzmwvJ6o64ZHkmP-sMSO8d1Juswe+9S+-2Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4EC50DCD.9070403@libero.it>

Il 14/11/2011 03:02, John Grigg ha scritto:
> Kelly Anderson wrote:
>> Even the Spartan warriors could not exist without the money that was
>> exchanged by the underclasses.

> And as Sparta gained more and more military successes, ultimately
> defeating Athens (at least for a time), wealth flowed in that deeply
> "corrupted" the philosophy of life/lifestyle the Spartans had embraced
> for centuries.  They had before heavily frowned upon major consumer
> consumption and materialism, with the exception, up to a point, of the
> king(s) and their family & entourage.  But due to all the war booty and
> tribute given, you could now easily see which Spartan individuals and
> families were among the powerful, due to all the many fancy possessions.

The Spartans defeat against Tebe was the effect of the low birthrate of
the Spartan women that, with they men out at war so long found that
childbearing was not so satisfying than managing and working for themselves.
In few years, with a low birthrate, high infant mortality and continuous
wars, the number of Spartans males fell 90%.

There are many lessons to learn from the Spartans. One of these is that
stopping to breed is not good for the future welfare.

Mirco

p.s.
Do anyone know if there is out there any (X)prize for creating the first
artificial working uterus able to bring a gestation at term with a
healthy baby?



From painlord2k at libero.it  Thu Nov 17 13:26:47 2011
From: painlord2k at libero.it (Mirco Romanato)
Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 14:26:47 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Money and Human Nature (was Re: Capitalism,
 anti capitalism, emotional arousal)
In-Reply-To: <CAL+RtPc3csd9UDriuT=BiO_Nhs6orBSm7ejRbqJo_oU_vqJw5A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPy8RwYcPYP-DGuqTkFmHpfCPQFqE==warBZw+TS3wjXUY1c9Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAL+RtPc3csd9UDriuT=BiO_Nhs6orBSm7ejRbqJo_oU_vqJw5A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4EC50B97.3000504@libero.it>

Il 11/11/2011 22:07, Giovanni Santostasi ha scritto:
> What about Star Trek society? Read this for example
> 
> http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2005/06/lessons-from-star-trek/

Star Trek society is not real.
Fictional people in the fictional series rarely behave like normal
people in real circumstances.

Why we don't argue about the moral/ethics and social behaviour in
zombies movies or TV series or comics (like the current "The Walking Dead")?

I enjoy read the comics for the drama, but it is a fact that the humans
characters inside are the most dysfunctional bunch available. They are a
greater danger to themselves and their mates than the zombies.

And there is not a hint of economic activity.

This is by design, because, if the writers wanted to describe economic
activity, they would be easily overwhelmed by the complexity of it.

Mirco


From painlord2k at libero.it  Thu Nov 17 13:42:39 2011
From: painlord2k at libero.it (Mirco Romanato)
Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 14:42:39 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Money and Human Nature (was Re: Capitalism,
 anti capitalism, emotional arousal)
In-Reply-To: <CAPoR7a7=Fx-YzY4MjePr=tpR07Gc3ZtFkXkCo=X3ss=SdFw47w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPy8RwYcPYP-DGuqTkFmHpfCPQFqE==warBZw+TS3wjXUY1c9Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPoR7a4TYgSD=ZLQ_0oczPSAnsVjPnukb8SsP6NOAB=vS4SvXg@mail.gmail.com>
	<01c801cca153$defcd1d0$9cf67570$@att.net>
	<CAPoR7a7=Fx-YzY4MjePr=tpR07Gc3ZtFkXkCo=X3ss=SdFw47w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4EC50F4F.9000501@libero.it>

Il 12/11/2011 17:51, Stefano Vaj ha scritto:
> 2011/11/12 spike <spike66 at att.net <mailto:spike66 at att.net>>
> 
>     I am trying to imagine doing that with greenbacks, and seeing a pile
>     of hundred dollar bills in the trash.
> 
> 
> Well, what you could sooner or later be seeing is that your bits and
> byte in some account are not accepted any more in exchange for goods and
> services, or even for other similar bits and bytes... :-) 
> 
> BTW, the communist regime in Viet Nam never abolished money, not even
> foreign exchange and it was incredibly naive of them to put all their
> wealth in the currency of the regime about to be defeated...

The main point people appear to miss is that currency and money are not
the same thing. Currency is a receipt for money but it is not money.
Money is a long term store of value. Currency is not.
Money is backed by itself (there is no counter party risk), currency is
backed by money (like the gold standard) or by something else like
government promises and reputation.
Money is an emergent feature of a complex economic system, currency is
an imposition of the government.

As usually happen, the promises and reputation of the governments, in
the long term, have a value of zero. Gold, silver, copper also, stay
gold, silver and copper.

Mirco


From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Thu Nov 17 15:49:01 2011
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 16:49:01 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Money and Human Nature (was Re: Capitalism,
 anti capitalism, emotional arousal)
In-Reply-To: <4EC50DCD.9070403@libero.it>
References: <CAPy8RwYcPYP-DGuqTkFmHpfCPQFqE==warBZw+TS3wjXUY1c9Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPoR7a4TYgSD=ZLQ_0oczPSAnsVjPnukb8SsP6NOAB=vS4SvXg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPy8RwZdHMGYw6LoZJVq4xxznGEwSm0OqOv19bZDnWNoQw1XVQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPy8RwbagWUJqDw2e6W8OMuU-VmBc-fDhQSiDMqiGE03fxyByQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAGSKFy3vFECQk7GjzmwvJ6o64ZHkmP-sMSO8d1Juswe+9S+-2Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<4EC50DCD.9070403@libero.it>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a4rhPn58Lq1Mr-UpLP2w=kT8UqRba5Za8L1vSJWi7+J3Q@mail.gmail.com>

On 17 November 2011 14:36, Mirco Romanato <painlord2k at libero.it> wrote:

> There are many lessons to learn from the Spartans. One of these is that
> stopping to breed is not good for the future welfare.
>

Indeed.

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From jonkc at bellsouth.net  Thu Nov 17 16:47:24 2011
From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (john clark)
Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 08:47:24 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ExI] A solution to global warming has been found, and its genocide.
In-Reply-To: <CAPoR7a4rhPn58Lq1Mr-UpLP2w=kT8UqRba5Za8L1vSJWi7+J3Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1321548444.57998.YahooMailClassic@web82906.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

>From Antarctic ice cores we know that between 1525 and 1600 the amount of the greenhouse gas CO2 in the atmosphere suddenly decreased between 6 and 10 parts per million; this period corresponds to the beginning of the "Little Ice Age" which lasted until about 1860. Richard Nevle suggested on October 11 at the Geological Society of America annual meeting that the CO2 decrease was caused by genocide in the Americas. Before Columbus there were between 40 and 100 million people in the Americas and far from being wise stewards of the land as depicted in modern myth they routinely engaged in massive deforestation to plant crops. By 1540 90% of the native population was dead, so the forests started to come back in a big way, Nevle estimates that the new trees soaked up between 2 and 17 billion tons of CO2. Its interesting that the Little Ice age finally ended about the time the Industrial Revolution started to kick up a lot of CO2 into the air.

?John K Clark


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From kellycoinguy at gmail.com  Thu Nov 17 19:40:32 2011
From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 12:40:32 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Money and Human Nature (was Re: Capitalism,
 anti capitalism, emotional arousal)
In-Reply-To: <CAPoR7a53mqv6bTLCykFradWa3wkvhiSFHYHW9ig92txjzFK+ag@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPy8RwYcPYP-DGuqTkFmHpfCPQFqE==warBZw+TS3wjXUY1c9Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPoR7a4TYgSD=ZLQ_0oczPSAnsVjPnukb8SsP6NOAB=vS4SvXg@mail.gmail.com>
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	<CAPoR7a5nL4k8HfBWWmooBPeh47xEMz6KOg+gvdj4kNrx6HiuHw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPy8RwYj1RH43gykfmbXD03_R4-077qib--bSHJSB+hsMVnB4Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPoR7a53mqv6bTLCykFradWa3wkvhiSFHYHW9ig92txjzFK+ag@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPy8RwaSQOtcO+Nvoggg5M95Ub=7YHp=Frt_yRAs34KgbyQOOg@mail.gmail.com>

2011/11/16 Stefano Vaj <stefano.vaj at gmail.com>:
> On 16 November 2011 18:43, Kelly Anderson <kellycoinguy at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Yes, better a pauper in America than a rich man in the former USSR...
>
> One POV, but my point is another, namely that they do not compare. Enjoying
> a relatively lavisher lifestyle does not mean that you "own" anything
> yourself. A trophy wife with an appropriate pre-nuptial in the US may feed
> herself just on caviar and Dom Perignon, and yet she may not even own her
> pants.

Ownership, and the right to use are related, but not equivalent
issues. Having the right to use is like owning things on a daily
basis, except that you may lose your access to those things by not
fulfilling a contract... for example a divorce in the above scenario.
Yet, as long as the contract is maintained, it is as if she is rich
and owns many things...

We seem to have strayed a bit from OWS... perhaps. Are you saying that
right to use is what OWS is after, and not ownership???

>> > The same way as a researcher in Krusciov's Russia. Abolition of private
>> > property of course does not mean that collective property is equally
>> > abolished.
>>
>> Sorry, you lost me on this one...
>
> The Jesuit Order may be very rich. USSR or the Party might have been very
> rich. This allows them to have members devoting their life to unproductive,
> esoteric tasks. This does not mean that those doing so are "rich" in any
> capitalistic sense.

OK, I'm following you now. The misspelling of Nikita Khrushchev's name
threw me a bit...

Yes, you can spend oodles of other people's money, and yet not be rich
in the capitalistic sense. Look at your average US congressman. They
are rich in the sense that they decide how to spend more money than
all but the richest private citizens, and yet if they take a small
bribe, they can lose it all. It is power over money, which isn't
identical to "rich" but is highly correlated in its properties.

The scientists who developed space flight capabilities for the
Russians was not rich, but spent a lot of money.

>> Yes, but you can't deny that former president Clinton is powerful.
>> Even Al Gore is powerful... and he didn't even win his run... barely.
>
> Mmhhh. Depends on one's definition of power. Certainly their personal worth
> is not really relevant. But yes, they might (still) be opinion leaders.

If power (influence) translates to money, both of these men are good
examples. Gore is making tens of millions of dollars off of his green
hedge funds, and Clinton makes money in a number of ways that would be
illegal were he still in office. (I'm not saying he is unethical in
this, since he IS out of office.) Clinton is probably the most
influential Democrat in America, with more credibility for most than
even the current sitting president. When he recently intoned that
Obama had made some specific missteps, it was reported by both the
left and right media. When Gore makes a movie, it wins an Oscar.
That's power any way you slice it.

-Kelly


From kellycoinguy at gmail.com  Thu Nov 17 20:39:50 2011
From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 13:39:50 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Money and Human Nature (was Re: Capitalism,
 anti capitalism, emotional arousal)
In-Reply-To: <4EC50F4F.9000501@libero.it>
References: <CAPy8RwYcPYP-DGuqTkFmHpfCPQFqE==warBZw+TS3wjXUY1c9Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPoR7a4TYgSD=ZLQ_0oczPSAnsVjPnukb8SsP6NOAB=vS4SvXg@mail.gmail.com>
	<01c801cca153$defcd1d0$9cf67570$@att.net>
	<CAPoR7a7=Fx-YzY4MjePr=tpR07Gc3ZtFkXkCo=X3ss=SdFw47w@mail.gmail.com>
	<4EC50F4F.9000501@libero.it>
Message-ID: <CAPy8RwYCxkC52gJXrirJtimhLZu6Pg09ahGJXgXE47My+fJbkA@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 6:42 AM, Mirco Romanato <painlord2k at libero.it> wrote:
> The main point people appear to miss is that currency and money are not
> the same thing. Currency is a receipt for money but it is not money.
> Money is a long term store of value. Currency is not.
> Money is backed by itself (there is no counter party risk), currency is
> backed by money (like the gold standard) or by something else like
> government promises and reputation.
> Money is an emergent feature of a complex economic system, currency is
> an imposition of the government.
>
> As usually happen, the promises and reputation of the governments, in
> the long term, have a value of zero. Gold, silver, copper also, stay
> gold, silver and copper.

Mirco,

  This is a point not lost on me. I routinely handle currency that no
longer has any value as money. Some of the more interesting pieces are
from the Weimar Republic Mark, and the Zimbabwean Dollar... printed in
denominations up to $100,000,000,000,000... the kind of numbers we
usually reserve for public debt, distances in space, etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperinflation_in_the_Weimar_Republic
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zimbabwean_dollar

Let us not forget that gold, silver and copper, while seemingly closer
to money than fiat currency, are really not money either. They are
just normally convertible to money more easily than hyper-inflated or
devalued currencies. Money itself is just whatever is taken in
exchange for goods and services that is likely to be taken in exchange
for other goods and services later. We seem to feel pretty secure in
our bits and bytes money... but the people exchanging siege notes, or
playing card currency of French Canada would probably find our belief
in non-local microscopic magnetic fields induced into microscopic
magnets on fast spinning media to be at least as strange as what they
did.

http://www.thecurrencycollector.com/seigenotes.html

Yes, money is a strange thing, and what we consider money could become
absolutely worthless... very easily.

I leave with a very telling picture from the Weimar Republic...
http://endoftheamericandream.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/Weirmar-Republic-currency.jpg
Interestingly, the domain hosting this image is "end of the American
dream"... so someone apparently thinks this is where we are headed,
and soon. They may be right, you can never tell.

-Kelly


From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Fri Nov 18 05:06:40 2011
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 21:06:40 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ExI] Money and Human Nature (was Re: Capitalism,
	anti capitalism, emotional arousal)
In-Reply-To: <C83D1454-E147-492E-ACCE-E7867F309CC5@taramayastales.com>
References: <CAPy8RwYcPYP-DGuqTkFmHpfCPQFqE==warBZw+TS3wjXUY1c9Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPoR7a4TYgSD=ZLQ_0oczPSAnsVjPnukb8SsP6NOAB=vS4SvXg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPy8RwZdHMGYw6LoZJVq4xxznGEwSm0OqOv19bZDnWNoQw1XVQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPoR7a7bZXAwnw7g=UFhEz7TY4fzJMrNnwXHFu_vMNjNs2B9AA@mail.gmail.com>
	<C83D1454-E147-492E-ACCE-E7867F309CC5@taramayastales.com>
Message-ID: <1321592800.8084.YahooMailNeo@web65612.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>



From: Tara Maya <tara at taramayastales.com>
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> 
Sent: Monday, November 14, 2011 8:04 AM
Subject: Re: [ExI] Money and Human Nature (was Re: Capitalism, anti capitalism, emotional arousal)

> Stefano wrote:

> European aristocracies, OTOH, used certainly to have a more lavish lifestyle. But even there, at the origins of feodalism, you were not the owner of the land you ruled on, and the king (or the higher vassal) could take it away at any moment if you did not perform the duties for which it was entrusted to you: military protection, economic production, enforcement of laws, administration of justice, resolution of conflicts, collection of taxes... Paradoxically, it was the new ideas brought by capitalism that achieved to make them essentially parasitic classes, especially in continental Europe.

Agreed. One of the more troublesome aspects of plutocratic capitalism is that it does away with the feudal concepts of chivalry and noblesse oblige. In other words, capitalism offers a few?fortunate individuals most of?the power and privilege?of the ancient aristocracies with few?of the responsibilities or even simple accountability?for the billions of dollars, jobs, and lives?that they move around like pawns on a chess-board.
?
After all you don't read too many accounts of nobleman kicking old peasants off their land, to allow young strong peasants to his work his fields, without so much as a thank you for 40 years of taxes. Come to think of it, you don't hear about too many Southern plantation owners not feeding their slaves once they got too old to work. Instead, they usually got the easier assignments.
?
Yet, in capitalism apparently, the only loyalty that counts, is brand loyalty.
?
> Moreover, the idea is still widespread in the West that those who (at least officially) rule a country need not be the richest people in that country, or even that they should forfeit the control of any significant assets they may have during office. 

Funny you should mention that. Toward the end of Feudal Japan but before the Meiji Restoration, there came a point when the Emperors of Japan, memebers of the?Yamato family literally believed to be the direct descendants of the Shinto Sun-Goddess, were desititue. One had to pawn some of his regalia to?pay for the funeral of?his father the former Emperor and then wait twenty years for peasants to donate enough money to him for a coranation ceremony. The reason for this is that by this point the political intrigue, deciet, and ruthlessness of the nobility had gotten so great and violence so common place that all that mattered was who had the armies. So at the time it was the?Oda clan that was the real power. The Emperor was the puppet of an impotent Shogun who was a puppet of the Oda because the Oda?had land,?money, and armies.?Neither Emporer nor Shogun were titles that anybody?in the?Oda clan?were qualified to hold, yet they managed to bribe,
 murder, and even?slaghter their way into de facto rulership of the country.?
?
?
> What many consider a distortion is the fact that today poorer, albeit theoretically more powerful, rulers are in fact over-influenced by richer private citizens, or much more often headless, self-referential institutions, cartels and circles, such as bankers and speculators,? without any office or answeerability or visibility, through corruption, lobbying, campaign financing, media control, etc. 

See point #1 above about noblesse oblige.

>Actually, what distinguished medieval European (and Japanese) feudalism was that lords had a great deal of stability of inheritance and property rights (and so did "free men") compared to "absolute monarchies." The situation was quite different in the Middle East, for instance, where the ruler could and did replace "nobles", including appoint eunuch slaves to the positions of greatest power. Eunuchs and slaves were the extreme example of the perfect loyal drones. They had no lineage to protect, so they wouldn't fight for their own land rights, and since they owed their power directly to the calif or sultan, they protected him to protect themselves. This lack of secure lordly property rights, combined with polygyny (and no primogeniture) made Middle East politics much volatile than European politics. Essentially, there was a civil war every time the government changed from one king to the next.

So caliphate politics?share traits with western liberal?democracy in the sense that the top-level beauracrats share the executive's fate, with elections replacing civil war? Interesting.?
?
>Capitalism, like autism, is a spectrum. Even a little bit of respect for property rights is better than no respect, and a little bit more is better than a little.

I agree with this sentiment mostly. But sometimes I question the validity of land ownership. The idea that?you can *own* something that was here long before you were and will be here long after you are gone is very strange and illogical.
?
?If anything, then?you are a property of the land you own, rather than vice-versa.?
?
>By the way, the complaint that the greedy, money-grubbing rich and the conniving, scheming money-lenders have too much influence is not at all new, and long antedated the formal practice of capitalism. The complaint was heard all the time in the middle ages (in both Europe and the Middle East). Nor is there anything at all new (or noble) about the Occupy cries to "Behead the Bankers!" (and yes, I have heard this, seen it on a sign, and saw it repeated by a friend on Facebook.) This is just the same old, old, old ugly that resulted in pogroms against the Jews, who were hated because they were owed money. 

If you hate bankers, then?you got to hate the Swiss too! ;-)
?
?
> It's so much easier to kill your lender than to pay back loans? then as now.

Hell your lender can't kill itself by jumping off of cliffs, these days. What do you think TARP was all about? Those banks deserved to die and didn't. So now a bunch of people somewhere are going to have to die of poverty to make up the difference. Such a shame. It's fine to treat capitalism as a game, but don't let banks play that game by a different set of rules than?everybody else.
?
Stuart LaForge
?
?Institutions will try to preserve the problem to which they are the solution." -Clay Shirky
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From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Fri Nov 18 07:30:31 2011
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 23:30:31 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ExI] Money and Human Nature (was Re: Capitalism,
	anti capitalism, emotional arousal)
In-Reply-To: <4EC50F4F.9000501@libero.it>
References: <CAPy8RwYcPYP-DGuqTkFmHpfCPQFqE==warBZw+TS3wjXUY1c9Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPoR7a4TYgSD=ZLQ_0oczPSAnsVjPnukb8SsP6NOAB=vS4SvXg@mail.gmail.com>
	<01c801cca153$defcd1d0$9cf67570$@att.net>
	<CAPoR7a7=Fx-YzY4MjePr=tpR07Gc3ZtFkXkCo=X3ss=SdFw47w@mail.gmail.com>
	<4EC50F4F.9000501@libero.it>
Message-ID: <1321601431.73228.YahooMailNeo@web65615.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

>________________________________
>From: Mirco Romanato <painlord2k at libero.it>
>To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> 
>Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2011 5:42 AM
>Subject: Re: [ExI] Money and Human Nature (was Re: Capitalism, anti capitalism, emotional arousal)
>
>Il 12/11/2011 17:51, Stefano Vaj ha scritto:
>> 2011/11/12 spike <spike66 at att.net <mailto:spike66 at att.net>>
>> 
>>? ? I am trying to imagine doing that with greenbacks, and seeing a pile
>>? ? of hundred dollar bills in the trash.

?
?
>The main point people appear to miss is that currency and money are not
>the same thing. Currency is a receipt for money but it is not money.
>Money is a long term store of value. Currency is not.
>Money is backed by itself (there is no counter party risk), currency is
>backed by money (like the gold standard) or by something else like
>government promises and reputation.
>Money is an emergent feature of a complex economic system, currency is
>an imposition of the government.

Gold backed currency is not any better than the currency we have now. All returning to the gold standard would do is?effectively act as a government fixing of the price of gold. See how that is less economic freedom than what fiat currency, bits, and bytes gives us?
?
It's actually quite well explained by Gresham's Law which is a consequence of the fact that the symbolic value of money is completely independent of the cost of the substrate that encodes it. Therefore most value is preserved by selfishly interested individuals by hoarding gold and circulating government IOUs than in actually circulating their gold. Of course this is why the government wanted to switch. Because it didn't want to circulate its hoard of gold.
?
Besides gold itself is not wealth. It the value of the time, expense, and effort to mine the gold, refine it, cast it into coins or draw it into wire or?what not wherein the value of the gold lay. Just like the economic value of water lay in the fact that it is from known clean source at a distant location and had to be packaged and shipped to your region. All that is man hours compounded by man-hours the very stuff of which our lives are made. 
?
>As usually happen, the promises and reputation of the governments, in
>the long term, have a value of zero. Gold, silver, copper also, stay
>gold, silver and copper.

Than how do you justify Taq polymerase enzyme being so many times more valuable per gram than your precious gold? Why not base all economic value on my #$&$% since?after all there are only two in the whole universe? No... Ben Franklin said time was? money not gold was money. How in the hell would you handle interest with a gold standard? Hope that gold coins multiplied like rabbits? Simply do a "currency" split like with stocks? You would be better off simply reinstitutionalizing slavery because under a gold standard maybe one in a million might ever get out of debt no matter how much and hard they worked.
?
Stuart LaForge


?Institutions will try to preserve the problem to which they are the solution." -Clay Shirky



From painlord2k at libero.it  Fri Nov 18 16:17:22 2011
From: painlord2k at libero.it (Mirco Romanato)
Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 17:17:22 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Money and Human Nature (was Re: Capitalism,
 anti capitalism, emotional arousal)
In-Reply-To: <1321601431.73228.YahooMailNeo@web65615.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <CAPy8RwYcPYP-DGuqTkFmHpfCPQFqE==warBZw+TS3wjXUY1c9Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPoR7a4TYgSD=ZLQ_0oczPSAnsVjPnukb8SsP6NOAB=vS4SvXg@mail.gmail.com>
	<01c801cca153$defcd1d0$9cf67570$@att.net>
	<CAPoR7a7=Fx-YzY4MjePr=tpR07Gc3ZtFkXkCo=X3ss=SdFw47w@mail.gmail.com>
	<4EC50F4F.9000501@libero.it>
	<1321601431.73228.YahooMailNeo@web65615.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4EC68512.50406@libero.it>

Il 18/11/2011 08:30, The Avantguardian ha scritto:

> Gold backed currency is not any better than the currency we have now.

I would have use for the yellow metal and for the silver metal. As
door-stopper they work much better than paper.

Seriously, a gold backed and convertible (if it is only backed but not
convertible it is a joke) currency would be a limit to the power of the
government to meddle in the economy and spend.

> All returning to the gold standard would do is effectively act as a
> government fixing of the price of gold. See how that is less economic
> freedom than what fiat currency, bits, and bytes gives us?

Fixing prices in a free market is always a losing proposition.
Too high no one would buy, too low they would be unable to satisfy all
the requests.
They tried to fix and rig the market before and after Bretton Wood. They
failed in the past, they are failing today.

> It's actually quite well explained by Gresham's Law which is a
> consequence of the fact that the symbolic value of money is
> completely independent of the cost of the substrate that encodes it.

This is false.
If the substrate value in greater than the facial value, the substrate
will be used and the money destroyed. This happened with coins in Italy
(and I suppose in other places) when the value of the metal was higher
than the value of the coin. Someone simply melted them.

> Therefore most value is preserved by selfishly interested individuals
> by hoarding gold and circulating government IOUs than in actually
> circulating their gold. Of course this is why the government wanted
> to switch. Because it didn't want to circulate its hoard of gold.

This is because the government IOUs are considered of lower value of the
real gold. And this is right, as an IOU have a counterpart risk that the
actual metal have not.

> Besides gold itself is not wealth.
Wealth is subjective to the owner.

> It the value of the time, expense,
> and effort to mine the gold, refine it, cast it into coins or draw it
> into wire or what not wherein the value of the gold lay.

Just simply wrong.
The value of gold mined with spoons is not greater of the value of gold
mined with mechanical shovels.
The value is in the eye of the buyer and the seller. And the price is
fixed when they exchange the goods.

> Just like
> the economic value of water lay in the fact that it is from known
> clean source at a distant location and had to be packaged and shipped
> to your region. All that is man hours compounded by man-hours the
> very stuff of which our lives are made.

This is not value, but cost.
Mixing the two show a basic misunderstanding of economic concepts.

> Than how do you justify Taq polymerase enzyme being so many times
> more valuable per gram than your precious gold?

Because people use it for some purpose they foresee will give them some
profit. But not all people, only people that know how to use it.
In fact, if you take the total stock of Taq polymerase enzyme available
in all the world, you will see that it is small relative to the annual
production. So the price could go up and down if the production or the
use change. Production can easily be increased if the price rise. So taq
Polymerase is not a good way to keep purchasing power.
Gold and partially silver have a large stock available. For gold it is
enough for something like 70 years at actual consumption rates and
production rates are similar. Essentially the quantity of gold is fixed.
This prevent large change of it value to people interested in buying or
selling it. If you want gold, you must buy it from someone that have
produced it or bought it before. And the producers are unable raise the
production to meet the demand in any significant way.

You must give real value if you want someone give you their gold and
they must do the same for you.

> Why not base all
> economic value on my #$&$% since after all there are only two in the
> whole universe?

Your whatever is not fungible, durable, divisible, can not be used for
anything useful apart you and few others ...

Anyway, gold is only the commodity chosen by the market in the last
5.000 years. Maybe the market will choose something different in future.
To know, just leave it the freedom to do so.

> No... Ben Franklin said time was money not gold was
> money.

> How in the hell would you handle interest with a gold
> standard?

Just as they handle them today when the Central banks lease gold.
They ask a 0.1% interest every 30 days or something like.
You receive 1 kg of gold and accept to pay back after 30 days, 1kg + 1
gram of gold. If you have invested the 1 kg of gold well, you will find
someone willing to separate from 1 g of gold. Currently 1 g of gold have
the same price to eat at a sushi restaurant.

> Hope that gold coins multiplied like rabbits?

Hoping to buy it from someone else in exchange for goods or services.
Exactly like I would hope to repay any debt I have incurred.

If you #$&$% have any commercial value, you could sell it or rent it in
exchange of gold.

Mirco




From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Fri Nov 18 16:30:26 2011
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 17:30:26 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Money and Human Nature (was Re: Capitalism,
 anti capitalism, emotional arousal)
In-Reply-To: <1321601431.73228.YahooMailNeo@web65615.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <CAPy8RwYcPYP-DGuqTkFmHpfCPQFqE==warBZw+TS3wjXUY1c9Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPoR7a4TYgSD=ZLQ_0oczPSAnsVjPnukb8SsP6NOAB=vS4SvXg@mail.gmail.com>
	<01c801cca153$defcd1d0$9cf67570$@att.net>
	<CAPoR7a7=Fx-YzY4MjePr=tpR07Gc3ZtFkXkCo=X3ss=SdFw47w@mail.gmail.com>
	<4EC50F4F.9000501@libero.it>
	<1321601431.73228.YahooMailNeo@web65615.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a6Ybuya+dgy0uQGPqaPONNTEnAo4K3bUMJa+mRqnwU2wA@mail.gmail.com>

On 18 November 2011 08:30, The Avantguardian <avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com>
wrote:
> Gold backed currency is not any better than the currency we have now.

Money as Debt III <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlwQJSLPqD0> (I hope I am
linking the right segment, but the entire film is highly recommended...)
contains IMHO the most simple and concise illustration of why this is the
case.

And the film certainly cannot be accused of being pro-banks.

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From kellycoinguy at gmail.com  Fri Nov 18 16:56:10 2011
From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 09:56:10 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Found! The first atoms in the Universe
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armgysFau9tUKRnFCAUbDiyidTWfs0DSDw0icnT+TGBEYhQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armgysFau9tUKRnFCAUbDiyidTWfs0DSDw0icnT+TGBEYhQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPy8Rwa3QPVM-xTjHqKk8Wfw5pTdruQBb_t6vgr=2dxLHwYLXA@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 4:56 AM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:
> Quote:
> The brightest, most luminous objects visible in the farthest reaches
> of the distant Universe are quasars, a good number of which are
> visible right at the very end stages of reionization -- when light
> becomes transparent to matter -- in the Universe. In a serendipitous
> stroke of good luck, after 58 years of quasar spectroscopy, the above
> team of Fumagalli, O'Meara and Prochaska found two clouds of pristine,
> unpolluted gas from the Big Bang in the spectra of their quasars!
>
> <http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2011/11/found_the_first_atoms_in_the_u.php>
>
> So this is not only the least polluted, most pristine sample of atoms
> we've ever found, it's also the newest, best test we've ever conducted
> as to whether the abundances of these light elements -- from the
> strength of their spectral absorption lines -- matches up with the
> predictions of the Big Bang!
>
> And that's how we found the very first atoms in the Universe, and how
> they -- yet again -- proved another prediction of the Big Bang
> correct!

Thanks for sharing this Bill. I have to say folks, that the above
article is one of the most understandable physics papers on this very
complex stuff that I've ever encountered. While I can't claim that I
fully understand everything in it, it is clear enough to follow the
reasoning and be entirely believable. I won't be able to repeat any of
his arguments tomorrow, but right now I'm amazed at this work. Anyone
who wants an example of how to make this sort of physics approachable
by mere mortals couldn't do much better than looking at this page.
Great stuff!

-Kelly


From jonkc at bellsouth.net  Fri Nov 18 17:55:09 2011
From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (john clark)
Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 09:55:09 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ExI] Online talk next Sunday: Ken Hayworth on How to create a
	Connectome Observatory of the mouse brain and beyond
In-Reply-To: <4EC1A1A6.4020404@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <1321638909.91073.YahooMailClassic@web82903.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

On Mon, 11/14/11, Anders Sandberg <anders at aleph.se> wrote:


Giulio Prisco wrote:
> Ken gave a GREAT talk yesterday.
>???
http://www.kurzweilai.net/a-connectome-observatory-for-nanoscale-brain-imaging

Seconded. I was amazed by it, despite both being late and thinking I knew what the state of art was. Wow.
Wow indeed! I had no idea current brain uploading techniques were that advanced.

? John K Clark
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From jonkc at bellsouth.net  Fri Nov 18 21:31:44 2011
From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (john clark)
Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 13:31:44 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ExI] New CERN neutrino speed results today,
	and the FTL signal is STILL THERE!
In-Reply-To: <CAPy8Rwa3QPVM-xTjHqKk8Wfw5pTdruQBb_t6vgr=2dxLHwYLXA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1321651904.13689.YahooMailClassic@web82906.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

New results were announced today by CERN from a experiment specifically designed to measure the speed of neutrinos with much less ambiguity than before, and they got the SAME FASTER THAN LIGHT RESULTS they got before.?? 

Its considerably harder to dismiss the FTL results today than it was yesterday. If it really is true and neutrinos move faster than light then you could send a message to the past, and that would cause a paradox, unless it was the past of another universe. It might provide the best experimental evidence yet that many worlds is true.

http://inspirehep.net/record/928153/files/arXiv:1109.4897.pdf?version=2

It still seems too good to be true, but where is the mistake?

John K Clark


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From pharos at gmail.com  Fri Nov 18 22:20:42 2011
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 22:20:42 +0000
Subject: [ExI] New CERN neutrino speed results today,
 and the FTL signal is STILL THERE!
In-Reply-To: <1321651904.13689.YahooMailClassic@web82906.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <CAPy8Rwa3QPVM-xTjHqKk8Wfw5pTdruQBb_t6vgr=2dxLHwYLXA@mail.gmail.com>
	<1321651904.13689.YahooMailClassic@web82906.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armhnUUnA+dG_q9dz9sO9XNV3y5eBGXAbRP6rYy8Wgg95HQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 2011/11/18 john clark wrote:
> New results were announced today by CERN from a experiment specifically designed to measure the speed of
> neutrinos with much less ambiguity than before, and they got the SAME FASTER THAN LIGHT RESULTS they got before.
>
> Its considerably harder to dismiss the FTL results today than it was yesterday. If it really is true and neutrinos move
> faster than light then you could send a message to the past, and that would cause a paradox, unless it was the past
> of another universe. It might provide the best experimental evidence yet that many worlds is true.
>
> It still seems too good to be true, but where is the mistake?
>
>


It is the same team.  It is not an independent confirmation.


BillK


From jonkc at bellsouth.net  Sat Nov 19 06:01:10 2011
From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (john clark)
Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 22:01:10 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ExI] New CERN neutrino speed results today,
	and the FTL signal is STILL THERE!
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armhnUUnA+dG_q9dz9sO9XNV3y5eBGXAbRP6rYy8Wgg95HQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1321682470.38478.YahooMailClassic@web82908.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

On Fri, 11/18/11, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:
"It is the same team.? It is not an independent confirmation."
True, but it is a new experiment and closes a major loophole, and there are only 2 or 3 teams on the planet that can do a confirmation.? Yesterday I would have said the odds the CERN people were right were 1 in 10, today I'd say its 50-50.

?John K Clark

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From painlord2k at libero.it  Sat Nov 19 08:41:07 2011
From: painlord2k at libero.it (Mirco Romanato)
Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 09:41:07 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Money and Human Nature (was Re: Capitalism,
 anti capitalism, emotional arousal)
In-Reply-To: <CAPy8RwYkH=m4+news84q8ZABs5ZB6LyKr2h508qTbcBDNs3cjg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPy8RwYcPYP-DGuqTkFmHpfCPQFqE==warBZw+TS3wjXUY1c9Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPoR7a4TYgSD=ZLQ_0oczPSAnsVjPnukb8SsP6NOAB=vS4SvXg@mail.gmail.com>
	<01c801cca153$defcd1d0$9cf67570$@att.net>
	<CAPoR7a7=Fx-YzY4MjePr=tpR07Gc3ZtFkXkCo=X3ss=SdFw47w@mail.gmail.com>
	<4EC50F4F.9000501@libero.it>
	<1321601431.73228.YahooMailNeo@web65615.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<4EC68512.50406@libero.it>
	<CAPy8RwYkH=m4+news84q8ZABs5ZB6LyKr2h508qTbcBDNs3cjg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4EC76BA3.4090805@libero.it>

Il 18/11/2011 18:06, Kelly Anderson ha scritto:
> On Fri, Nov 18, 2011 at 9:17 AM, Mirco Romanato <painlord2k at libero.it> wrote:
>> Il 18/11/2011 08:30, The Avantguardian ha scritto:

>> Seriously, a gold backed and convertible (if it is only backed but not
>> convertible it is a joke) currency would be a limit to the power of the
>> government to meddle in the economy and spend.

> The government would just make up new tricks... they always have.

It is not a reason to let them use easier trick.
This is the reason I fear that any constitutional amendment allowing the
government to go in debts only in case of formal war declaration would
bring back the old war declarations.


>> Anyway, gold is only the commodity chosen by the market in the last
>> 5.000 years. Maybe the market will choose something different in future.
>> To know, just leave it the freedom to do so.

> I think gold, as opposed to diamonds, will have a lot of value for a
> long time. It's just too hard to make gold...

Exactly.

Mirco


From kgh1kgh2 at gmail.com  Sat Nov 19 10:28:36 2011
From: kgh1kgh2 at gmail.com (Kevin G Haskell)
Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 05:28:36 -0500
Subject: [ExI] OWS Rolling in the Mud
Message-ID: <CAEUzo3KPdjCzbm80pxj0LCQZHPJd13ydW=RL151rUFxTDweg4g@mail.gmail.com>

Message: 7
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 22:20:33 -0700
From: Kelly Anderson <kellycoinguy at gmail.com>
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: Re: [ExI] OWS Rolling in the Mud
Message-ID:
       <CAPy8RwYqWiUdSGF645xMjqzPNRe=
_ytN5MRD0CCK1q816FpauA at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1


2011/11/13 Kevin G Haskell <kgh1kgh2 at gmail.com>:
> Giovanni Santostasi's first reply to Kevin G Haskell, and Kevin's
response:
> There would be a lot more types of people like Steve Jobs if people were
> properly educated in our public schools on how to start and effectively
run
> businesses.? They don't, so most creative people feel confined to
practicing
> within the career they were were trained within, and not taking those
skills
> to a higher level to expanding it.

>>On December 1st, I am going to a fifth grade all day exercise where
they set up little mini businesses, and try to make a microcosm of
capitalism for the day. I will be sure and report back how well they
are educating the fifth graders. Interestingly, my son is a special
needs student, and he is still invited as long as I escort him. That's
pretty cool from my point of view.

So, perhaps this sort of education is not entirely dead... just "mostly
dead"...

-Kelly<<

Good start, Kelly.  In middle school, We had fake money and budgets. I
remember doing that for one week.  I ended up running out of money, and had
no idea why.  Had the training gone on for the entire year, or years, every
student who graduated high school would have been extremely well versed on
how to manage their own fiances and credit, probably obtained a good idea
about how Capitalist macroeconomics work, and the ability to run a business
if they so chose, as well.  If you can get around your school dictators,
perhaps you could repeat that form of teaching throughout the year whenever
you can.

As for now, good for you, and good luck, as well.

Kevin
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Sat Nov 19 12:07:47 2011
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 05:07:47 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The Methuselah Generation: The Science of Living Forever
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy3++sdinGbv-121F-80CBOMzwCCkXhgMv4H1iO_5fPYfw@mail.gmail.com>

This is a documentary in the works about extreme life extension...


http://www.singularityweblog.com/the-methuselah-generation-the-science-of-living-forever/


John


From spike66 at att.net  Sat Nov 19 15:01:47 2011
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 07:01:47 -0800
Subject: [ExI] New CERN neutrino speed results today,
	and the FTL signal is STILL THERE!
In-Reply-To: <1321651904.13689.YahooMailClassic@web82906.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <CAPy8Rwa3QPVM-xTjHqKk8Wfw5pTdruQBb_t6vgr=2dxLHwYLXA@mail.gmail.com>
	<1321651904.13689.YahooMailClassic@web82906.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <012701cca6cc$291d5870$7b580950$@att.net>

 

 

On Behalf Of john clark
Subject: [ExI] New CERN neutrino speed results today, and the FTL signal is
STILL THERE!

 


>New results were announced today by CERN 
http://inspirehep.net/record/928153/files/arXiv:1109.4897.pdf?version=2

>It still seems too good to be true, but where is the mistake?  John K Clark



Hooooooo boy, damned if I know.  It's a hell of a time to be finding out
that everything I thought I knew, everything I have learned in life is
wrong.  Now I am trying to figure out what I no longer trust.  For instance,
do the FTL results mean I also toss all political notions?  Looks to me like
I do.  Family is safe, for unshakeable is my attitude towards family and
friends.  But the rest of it must be reviewed from the ground up.

 

spike

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From spike66 at att.net  Sat Nov 19 15:04:07 2011
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 07:04:07 -0800
Subject: [ExI] New CERN neutrino speed results today,
	and the FTL signal is STILL THERE!
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armhnUUnA+dG_q9dz9sO9XNV3y5eBGXAbRP6rYy8Wgg95HQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPy8Rwa3QPVM-xTjHqKk8Wfw5pTdruQBb_t6vgr=2dxLHwYLXA@mail.gmail.com>	<1321651904.13689.YahooMailClassic@web82906.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<CAL_armhnUUnA+dG_q9dz9sO9XNV3y5eBGXAbRP6rYy8Wgg95HQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <012c01cca6cc$7cccd680$76668380$@att.net>

>> It still seems too good to be true, but where is the mistake?



>It is the same team.  It is not an independent confirmation.  BillK


They need to publish everything about their results and techniques
forthwith.  If they can measure FTL neutrinos in Europe the yanks should be
able to duplicate it.

spike



From eugen at leitl.org  Sat Nov 19 15:43:32 2011
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 16:43:32 +0100
Subject: [ExI] New CERN neutrino speed results today,
	and the FTL	signal is STILL THERE!
In-Reply-To: <012c01cca6cc$7cccd680$76668380$@att.net>
References: <CAPy8Rwa3QPVM-xTjHqKk8Wfw5pTdruQBb_t6vgr=2dxLHwYLXA@mail.gmail.com>
	<1321651904.13689.YahooMailClassic@web82906.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<CAL_armhnUUnA+dG_q9dz9sO9XNV3y5eBGXAbRP6rYy8Wgg95HQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<012c01cca6cc$7cccd680$76668380$@att.net>
Message-ID: <20111119154332.GI31847@leitl.org>

On Sat, Nov 19, 2011 at 07:04:07AM -0800, spike wrote:

> They need to publish everything about their results and techniques
> forthwith.  If they can measure FTL neutrinos in Europe the yanks should be
> able to duplicate it.

It's weird how they stopped talking about the error to relativistically
compensate for the GPS clock sync. IIRC this was responsible for the
60-odd ns measurement.

-- 
Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE


From gsantostasi at gmail.com  Sat Nov 19 18:05:59 2011
From: gsantostasi at gmail.com (Giovanni Santostasi)
Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 12:05:59 -0600
Subject: [ExI] OWS Rolling in the Mud
In-Reply-To: <CAEUzo3KPdjCzbm80pxj0LCQZHPJd13ydW=RL151rUFxTDweg4g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEUzo3KPdjCzbm80pxj0LCQZHPJd13ydW=RL151rUFxTDweg4g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL+RtPcE_WHRBz+QCZrUL3OfsVFPPe-LWL5qvhkNrcBXDq+PXw@mail.gmail.com>

But away, the silly chanting in the OWS meetings is a humane loudspeaker.
The idea is to have everybody in the crowd to be able to hear what the
speakers is saying.
I was turned off by it when I heard it on youtube the first time but now it
seems an interesting idea.



2011/11/19 Kevin G Haskell <kgh1kgh2 at gmail.com>

> Message: 7
> Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 22:20:33 -0700
> From: Kelly Anderson <kellycoinguy at gmail.com>
>
> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Subject: Re: [ExI] OWS Rolling in the Mud
> Message-ID:
>        <CAPy8RwYqWiUdSGF645xMjqzPNRe=
> _ytN5MRD0CCK1q816FpauA at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
>
> 2011/11/13 Kevin G Haskell <kgh1kgh2 at gmail.com>:
> > Giovanni Santostasi's first reply to Kevin G Haskell, and Kevin's
> response:
> > There would be a lot more types of people like Steve Jobs if people were
> > properly educated in our public schools on how to start and effectively
> run
> > businesses.? They don't, so most creative people feel confined to
> practicing
>
> > within the career they were were trained within, and not taking those
> skills
> > to a higher level to expanding it.
>
> >>On December 1st, I am going to a fifth grade all day exercise where
> they set up little mini businesses, and try to make a microcosm of
> capitalism for the day. I will be sure and report back how well they
> are educating the fifth graders. Interestingly, my son is a special
> needs student, and he is still invited as long as I escort him. That's
> pretty cool from my point of view.
>
> So, perhaps this sort of education is not entirely dead... just "mostly
> dead"...
>
> -Kelly<<
>
> Good start, Kelly.  In middle school, We had fake money and budgets. I
> remember doing that for one week.  I ended up running out of money, and had
> no idea why.  Had the training gone on for the entire year, or years, every
> student who graduated high school would have been extremely well versed on
> how to manage their own fiances and credit, probably obtained a good idea
> about how Capitalist macroeconomics work, and the ability to run a business
> if they so chose, as well.  If you can get around your school dictators,
> perhaps you could repeat that form of teaching throughout the year whenever
> you can.
>
> As for now, good for you, and good luck, as well.
>
> Kevin
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From jonkc at bellsouth.net  Sat Nov 19 18:34:16 2011
From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (john clark)
Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 10:34:16 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ExI] New CERN neutrino speed results today,
	and the FTL signal is STILL THERE!
In-Reply-To: <20111119154332.GI31847@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <1321727656.16705.YahooMailClassic@web82907.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

On Sat, 11/19/11, Eugen Leitl <eugen at leitl.org> wrote:

"It's weird how they stopped talking about the error to relativistically
compensate for the GPS clock sync. "
Probably because few think that that can be the true explanation for these bizarre FTL results. I always thought it unlikely that the big brains at CERN could operate the LHC but were flummoxed by a GPS receiver. I mean the CERN people had enough skill at GPS to notice that after a recent earthquake the 430 mile distance between the neutrino generator and detector had suddenly increased by two and a half inches. 

? John K Clark

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From eugen at leitl.org  Sat Nov 19 19:12:31 2011
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 20:12:31 +0100
Subject: [ExI] New CERN neutrino speed results today,
	and the FTL	signal is STILL THERE!
In-Reply-To: <1321727656.16705.YahooMailClassic@web82907.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <20111119154332.GI31847@leitl.org>
	<1321727656.16705.YahooMailClassic@web82907.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20111119191231.GK31847@leitl.org>

On Sat, Nov 19, 2011 at 10:34:16AM -0800, john clark wrote:
> On Sat, 11/19/11, Eugen Leitl <eugen at leitl.org> wrote:
> 
> "It's weird how they stopped talking about the error to relativistically
> compensate for the GPS clock sync. "
> Probably because few think that that can be the true explanation for these bizarre FTL results. I always thought it unlikely that the big brains at CERN could operate the LHC but were flummoxed by a GPS receiver. I mean the CERN people had enough skill at GPS to notice that after a recent earthquake the 430 mile distance between the neutrino generator and detector had suddenly increased by two and a half inches. 

GPS position is easy, synchronizing oscillators via GPS is trickier
if you're not using relativistic corrections (actually, it's 
provably impossible given inertial fram dragging, but Earth
has nigh-negligible impact on spacetime curvature and rotates
slowly).

The experiment has troubles. It has 50 ns measurement granularity
and they're still relying on GPS. Perhaps they can lay fiber or
use two previously synchronized atomic clocks.

I still think this is nothing. We'll see soon enough.

-- 
Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE


From sjv2006 at gmail.com  Sat Nov 19 18:58:09 2011
From: sjv2006 at gmail.com (Stephen Van Sickle)
Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 11:58:09 -0700
Subject: [ExI] New CERN neutrino speed results today,
 and the FTL signal is STILL THERE!
In-Reply-To: <1321727656.16705.YahooMailClassic@web82907.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <20111119154332.GI31847@leitl.org>
	<1321727656.16705.YahooMailClassic@web82907.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CADYziYATdpQyv-6kM+7U8ZvaJRxpRssqGefxNpmSPQrAJ1nkPA@mail.gmail.com>

Probably because few think that that can be the true explanation for these
> bizarre FTL results.


 An error of 60 nanoseconds would correspond to 18 meters error in
position.  GPS is regularly accurate to 2 or 3 meters in real time with
moving vehicles.  By collecting and averaging data over >24 hours at a
fixed position, it can achieve well below 1 cm accuracy.
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From eugen at leitl.org  Sat Nov 19 20:16:15 2011
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 21:16:15 +0100
Subject: [ExI] New CERN neutrino speed results today,
	and the FTL	signal is STILL THERE!
In-Reply-To: <CADYziYATdpQyv-6kM+7U8ZvaJRxpRssqGefxNpmSPQrAJ1nkPA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20111119154332.GI31847@leitl.org>
	<1321727656.16705.YahooMailClassic@web82907.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<CADYziYATdpQyv-6kM+7U8ZvaJRxpRssqGefxNpmSPQrAJ1nkPA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20111119201615.GM31847@leitl.org>

On Sat, Nov 19, 2011 at 11:58:09AM -0700, Stephen Van Sickle wrote:
> Probably because few think that that can be the true explanation for these
> > bizarre FTL results.
> 
> 
>  An error of 60 nanoseconds would correspond to 18 meters error in
> position.  GPS is regularly accurate to 2 or 3 meters in real time with
> moving vehicles.  By collecting and averaging data over >24 hours at a
> fixed position, it can achieve well below 1 cm accuracy.

https://encrypted.google.com/search?q=neutrino+gps+fiber+ns+error


From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Sat Nov 19 20:46:21 2011
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 21:46:21 +0100
Subject: [ExI] New CERN neutrino speed results today,
 and the FTL signal is STILL THERE!
In-Reply-To: <20111119191231.GK31847@leitl.org>
References: <20111119154332.GI31847@leitl.org>
	<1321727656.16705.YahooMailClassic@web82907.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<20111119191231.GK31847@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a5p6-S3gQuzOQDq_rY1y-9YQHVAK-PyHZfFWarDqSK-YA@mail.gmail.com>

On 19 November 2011 20:12, Eugen Leitl <eugen at leitl.org> wrote:

> I still think this is nothing. We'll see soon enough.
>

I do suspect the same. But certainly hope that the results imply some
interesting new thing in fundamental physics, something which has been
sorely lacking for a few years now, at least AFAIK.

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From sjv2006 at gmail.com  Sat Nov 19 20:32:59 2011
From: sjv2006 at gmail.com (Stephen Van Sickle)
Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 13:32:59 -0700
Subject: [ExI] New CERN neutrino speed results today,
 and the FTL signal is STILL THERE!
In-Reply-To: <20111119201615.GM31847@leitl.org>
References: <20111119154332.GI31847@leitl.org>
	<1321727656.16705.YahooMailClassic@web82907.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<CADYziYATdpQyv-6kM+7U8ZvaJRxpRssqGefxNpmSPQrAJ1nkPA@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111119201615.GM31847@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <CADYziYAB=1ak7tHAWHFRv3HgOoO-eLRtYZLKRMjJUzzCmuLYEA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Nov 19, 2011 at 1:16 PM, Eugen Leitl <eugen at leitl.org> wrote:

https://encrypted.google.com/search?q=neutrino+gps+fiber+ns+error
>

https://facultystaff.richmond.edu/~ebunn/vanelburg.pdf

I also think it likely the results are an error, but the odds have
narrowed.  Probably something in the details that no one suspects yet.
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From protokol2020 at gmail.com  Sun Nov 20 09:28:15 2011
From: protokol2020 at gmail.com (Tomaz Kristan)
Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2011 10:28:15 +0100
Subject: [ExI] New CERN neutrino speed results today,
 and the FTL signal is STILL THERE!
In-Reply-To: <CADYziYAB=1ak7tHAWHFRv3HgOoO-eLRtYZLKRMjJUzzCmuLYEA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20111119154332.GI31847@leitl.org>
	<1321727656.16705.YahooMailClassic@web82907.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<CADYziYATdpQyv-6kM+7U8ZvaJRxpRssqGefxNpmSPQrAJ1nkPA@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111119201615.GM31847@leitl.org>
	<CADYziYAB=1ak7tHAWHFRv3HgOoO-eLRtYZLKRMjJUzzCmuLYEA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALMrAFRzmRXDuDLfLd9fYjToVffYCWTNKSaQCVyvcOq=qMqZCA@mail.gmail.com>

Nature is, as it is. There is no natural mechanism to preserve our favorite
ideas about how it should be, to indulge Einstein or anybody else. Physics
could be just more complicated than we were able to imagined so far. There
is also no need for something spectacular as time travel to explain this
fast neutrinos. We could be just a bit too stupid to already have a good
enough picture in physics.

 - Thomas
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From darren.greer3 at gmail.com  Sun Nov 20 14:20:34 2011
From: darren.greer3 at gmail.com (Darren Greer)
Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2011 10:20:34 -0400
Subject: [ExI] New CERN neutrino speed results today,
 and the FTL signal is STILL THERE!
In-Reply-To: <CALMrAFRzmRXDuDLfLd9fYjToVffYCWTNKSaQCVyvcOq=qMqZCA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20111119154332.GI31847@leitl.org>
	<1321727656.16705.YahooMailClassic@web82907.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<CADYziYATdpQyv-6kM+7U8ZvaJRxpRssqGefxNpmSPQrAJ1nkPA@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111119201615.GM31847@leitl.org>
	<CADYziYAB=1ak7tHAWHFRv3HgOoO-eLRtYZLKRMjJUzzCmuLYEA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CALMrAFRzmRXDuDLfLd9fYjToVffYCWTNKSaQCVyvcOq=qMqZCA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOje6chpP2Lzur-0B73MRa3PEiUv_wAV_58R9m6KZdodztS_Zg@mail.gmail.com>

2011/11/20 Tomaz Kristan <protokol2020 at gmail.com> wrote:


Nature is, as it is. There is no natural mechanism to preserve our favorite
> ideas about how it should be, to indulge Einstein or anybody else.
>

Tachyons, as far as I understand it (and I admit my understanding is
limited) do not actually violate Einstein's speed of light maxim. Particles
are free to travel faster than the speed of light but since their energy
actually decreases as their speed increases they cannot slow down to cross
the barrier, just as particles travelling slower than c cannot get enough
energy to beak it.  What it violates is the causality of special relativity
by having particles sent back in time and having messages and
replies received before they are sent, etc. Time travel always messes with
my head, so it may be my own bias that frowns upon the possibility of
reterocausality. I would be interested to know, however, why John thinks
this neutrino thing could be support for Evertt's Many World's Theory, if
he doesn't mind taking the time. Just think of me as the slow kid in
school, but the one that everyone kind of likes. :)


> Physics could be just more complicated than we were able to imagined so
> far.
>

Or it could be more simple. Something along the lines of Bohm's Implicate
Order.

Cheers,

Darren


>
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From spike66 at att.net  Sun Nov 20 17:25:52 2011
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2011 09:25:52 -0800
Subject: [ExI] npr wrote this?  indeed?
Message-ID: <008b01cca7a9$74cc00e0$5e6402a0$@att.net>

 

This article is unremarkable other than that it was posted by NPR:

 

http://www.npr.org/2011/11/14/142245517/on-capitol-hill-rands-atlas-cant-be-
shrugged-off?ft=3
<http://www.npr.org/2011/11/14/142245517/on-capitol-hill-rands-atlas-cant-be
-shrugged-off?ft=3&f=111787346&sc=nl&cc=es-20111120>
&f=111787346&sc=nl&cc=es-20111120

 

spike

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From msd001 at gmail.com  Sun Nov 20 20:11:32 2011
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2011 15:11:32 -0500
Subject: [ExI] New CERN neutrino speed results today,
 and the FTL signal is STILL THERE!
In-Reply-To: <CAOje6chpP2Lzur-0B73MRa3PEiUv_wAV_58R9m6KZdodztS_Zg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20111119154332.GI31847@leitl.org>
	<1321727656.16705.YahooMailClassic@web82907.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<CADYziYATdpQyv-6kM+7U8ZvaJRxpRssqGefxNpmSPQrAJ1nkPA@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111119201615.GM31847@leitl.org>
	<CADYziYAB=1ak7tHAWHFRv3HgOoO-eLRtYZLKRMjJUzzCmuLYEA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CALMrAFRzmRXDuDLfLd9fYjToVffYCWTNKSaQCVyvcOq=qMqZCA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAOje6chpP2Lzur-0B73MRa3PEiUv_wAV_58R9m6KZdodztS_Zg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOJFdb+OoTidsWBR0vrO3S-8ijocz6m-_pJ4fH+snd-bW6dCYA@mail.gmail.com>

2011/11/20 Darren Greer <darren.greer3 at gmail.com>:
> reterocausality. I would be interested to know, however, why John thinks
> this?neutrino?thing could be support for Evertt's Many World's Theory, if he
> doesn't mind taking the time. Just think of me as the slow kid in school,
> but the one that everyone kind of likes. :)

I'm interested in hearing that explanation myself.  My first reaction
when John mentioned support for MW was "of course" but I can't find
words to sensibly support that gut reaction.



From protokol2020 at gmail.com  Sun Nov 20 20:41:20 2011
From: protokol2020 at gmail.com (Tomaz Kristan)
Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2011 21:41:20 +0100
Subject: [ExI] npr wrote this? indeed?
In-Reply-To: <008b01cca7a9$74cc00e0$5e6402a0$@att.net>
References: <008b01cca7a9$74cc00e0$5e6402a0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CALMrAFRAd7PQBF5xJD1AN2hnMKEJLiRedtb9uDZJ49PbvNL2cg@mail.gmail.com>

Rand is of course right. It is good to see her ideas spreading.

 - Thomas

2011/11/20 spike <spike66 at att.net>

> ** **
>
> This article is unremarkable other than that it was posted by NPR:****
>
> ** **
>
>
> http://www.npr.org/2011/11/14/142245517/on-capitol-hill-rands-atlas-cant-be-shrugged-off?ft=3&f=111787346&sc=nl&cc=es-20111120
> ****
>
> ** **
>
> spike****
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From jonkc at bellsouth.net  Sun Nov 20 20:43:43 2011
From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (john clark)
Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2011 12:43:43 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ExI] The first FTL Neutrino music video
In-Reply-To: <008b01cca7a9$74cc00e0$5e6402a0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <1321821823.38466.YahooMailClassic@web82904.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpMY84T8WY0

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From jonkc at bellsouth.net  Sun Nov 20 21:11:29 2011
From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (john clark)
Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2011 13:11:29 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ExI] New CERN neutrino speed results today,
	and the FTL signal is STILL THERE!
In-Reply-To: <CAOje6chpP2Lzur-0B73MRa3PEiUv_wAV_58R9m6KZdodztS_Zg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1321823489.80003.YahooMailClassic@web82907.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

On Nov 20, 2011, at 9:20 AM, Darren Greer wrote:

"What it [FTL]violates is the causality of special relativity by having particles sent back in time and having messages and replies received before they are sent [...]? I would be interested to know, however, why John thinks this neutrino thing could be support for Evertt's Many World's Theory"

Yes, if signals can travel faster than light then you can send messages to the past, and that can cause paradoxes, so assuming the universe will not tolerate paradoxes there must be a way to avoid them. Perhaps the message is sent not to the past of this universe but to the past on another very similar parallel universe. A few years ago I wrote a post on that subject, this is part of it:
==========
What about the logical paradoxes that would result from communicating with the past, wouldn't that be enough to rule out Tachyons? It would if anybody saw them, but suppose nature rubbed out any witnesses to her crime and brought a universe to an end that was about to see a paradox.

Damn, I just knocked my coffee cup off the table, what a mess! I'm really not in the mood to clean it up, instead I'll use my iTime model 14,400 Neutrino modem and send myself some E mail 2 minutes ago. I'll just hit the send key now and

.....brought a universe to an end that was about to see a paradox. Pardon me, I just got some E mail from John, let's see what it says:

"Dear John

Be careful with that coffee cup near your elbow, you're about to knock it over."

Wow, John is right, that cup is dangerously near the edge! I'll put it in a safe place. It was nice of John to warn me about it, it's too bad that means oblivion for him and his entire universe, but that's life, nature just will not allow anybody to observe a paradox.

I know what you're thinking, how could John be so incredibly stupid, he must have been completely out of his mind!? Why else would he deliberately buy an obsolete 14,400 Neutrino modem? Well, call me cheap if you want but I still think the 28,800 model is too expensive, besides I have it on very good authority that Apple will drop the price next year.

? John K Clark

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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Mon Nov 21 00:17:23 2011
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2011 17:17:23 -0700
Subject: [ExI] How to grow old with whimsy and wit...
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy27rhtAakosRitFda+7j6z6wTpUdfX-YFQH+r81Ji5rGw@mail.gmail.com>

How to grow old with whimsy and wit
http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21228395.400-how-to-grow-old-with-whimsy-and-wit.html
16 November 2011 by Liz Else

Book information
Losing It by William Ian Miller
Published by: Yale University Press
Price: ?18.99/$27
Self-styled "aged professor" William Ian Miller grows old gracefully
in Losing It with his reflections on the time when your faculties fail

"DESPITE the best efforts of transhumanists and purveyors of the
"singularity", we all face seeing our bodies eventually collapse and
our mental marbles depart singly, or rush out en masse.

Science has no cures for ageing. Mind gyms and brain games might not
work as advertised, and neuroscientists and doctors understand normal
function not much further than being able to provide generic health
messages about taking exercise, avoiding obesity and maybe learning
meditation.

So how are we to deal with the decline of our youth in an era of
death-denying baby boomers, botox addicts, and people seeking to gloss
over the decrepitude of old age? One solution is to throw all the
erudition, wit, and distemper you can muster at it. This is the
preferred route of law professor William Ian Miller, that unusual kind
of writer whose works genuinely and comfortably span academic and lay
worlds, largely because his mind is well furnished after years of
delving into anthropology, psychology, literature and history.

The book's subtitle sets up our expectations: "Losing It: In which an
aging professor LAMENTS his shrinking BRAIN, which he flatters himself
formerly did him Noble Service. A Plaint, tragi-comical, historical,
vengeful, sometimes satirical and thankful in six parts, if his Memory
does yet serve".

And we are off on a fast and furious journey through the riches of
Miller's brain: from the peddlers of positive psychology - "these
fields are either culpably moronic or a swindle" - to the ship in the
opening of the epic poem Beowulf, laden with goods for the use of
Danish king Scyld Scefing in the next world.

He poses body-blow questions such as: "Is wisdom a sop, a payment in
unverifiable coin to make up for the provable failings of focus and
memory...?", and cites truisms by the likes of Saint Bernardino of
Siena: "Everyone wishes to reach old age, but nobody wishes to be
old".

He conjures the great and the terrifying, such as the courageous king
of Troy during its famous war with the Greeks, against whose light the
glow of our own lives pales in comparison: "Priam was sitting on top
of the world at your age; so was Margaret Thatcher, before whom all
trembled. There is nothing saga-worthy about a nursing home and
dementia - or a retirement condo for that matter..."

The cumulative effect of such a tour of ageing ought to be depressing,
but it's actually bracing. Trying to keep up with the sheer breadth of
knowledge in Losing It and actually reading all the wonderful books
Miller weaves into this strange, dark, intellectual kilim will keep
you constructively engaged while you wait for science to throw up a
wild card that might just delay, or even cancel, your own miserable
end."



From darren.greer3 at gmail.com  Mon Nov 21 01:25:35 2011
From: darren.greer3 at gmail.com (Darren Greer)
Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2011 21:25:35 -0400
Subject: [ExI] The first FTL Neutrino music video
In-Reply-To: <1321821823.38466.YahooMailClassic@web82904.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <008b01cca7a9$74cc00e0$5e6402a0$@att.net>
	<1321821823.38466.YahooMailClassic@web82904.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAOje6ch-sfgmj1hd0HLNh62vg0Bz-N28KWO5ETFuUVhkeoSaHg@mail.gmail.com>

2011/11/20 john clark <jonkc at bellsouth.net>

> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpMY84T8WY0
>
>
>
I like the animated footage of the earth being eaten by a (presumably LHC
generated) black hole. Very uplifting.

Darren
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From spike66 at att.net  Mon Nov 21 01:52:29 2011
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2011 17:52:29 -0800
Subject: [ExI] question for electronic voice effects hipsters
Message-ID: <010d01cca7f0$3a91b900$afb52b00$@att.net>

 

Have we experts among us on electronic voice enhancement?  Does autotune
allow any voice to be brought to nearly perfect in-tune?  If so, how can we,
or can we, distinguish a terrific new talent from an ordinary nobody who has
been autotuned?  For instance this one:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOu0DuxFAT0
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOu0DuxFAT0&feature=player_embedded>
&feature=player_embedded

 

Real?  Or computer enhanced?  How can we know?

 

spike

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From gsantostasi at gmail.com  Mon Nov 21 02:13:47 2011
From: gsantostasi at gmail.com (Giovanni Santostasi)
Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2011 20:13:47 -0600
Subject: [ExI] question for electronic voice effects hipsters
In-Reply-To: <010d01cca7f0$3a91b900$afb52b00$@att.net>
References: <010d01cca7f0$3a91b900$afb52b00$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAL+RtPfkX=gFxOGhUEtaF2trEw1J1ccB8oA=F5FYc-vPRgpUng@mail.gmail.com>

Why should it matter?
A microphone enhances the voice of a singer that may not have a very
powerful one.
Any musical instrument enhances the ability of an artist to do interesting
music.
Welcome are the enhancements.
Giovanni

2011/11/20 spike <spike66 at att.net>

> ** **
>
> Have we experts among us on electronic voice enhancement?  Does autotune
> allow any voice to be brought to nearly perfect in-tune?  If so, how can
> we, or can we, distinguish a terrific new talent from an ordinary nobody
> who has been autotuned?  For instance this one:****
>
> ** **
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOu0DuxFAT0&feature=player_embedded****
>
> ** **
>
> Real?  Or computer enhanced?  How can we know?****
>
> ** **
>
> spike****
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From gsantostasi at gmail.com  Mon Nov 21 02:28:34 2011
From: gsantostasi at gmail.com (Giovanni Santostasi)
Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2011 20:28:34 -0600
Subject: [ExI] question for electronic voice effects hipsters
In-Reply-To: <010d01cca7f0$3a91b900$afb52b00$@att.net>
References: <010d01cca7f0$3a91b900$afb52b00$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAL+RtPenY+VoKBBG3k9_5PxkLVCePHm1Ua19ZQZR=fWxG=hSNA@mail.gmail.com>

You can see some other videos by the singer with only a classical guitar
and she is pretty good.
G

2011/11/20 spike <spike66 at att.net>

> ** **
>
> Have we experts among us on electronic voice enhancement?  Does autotune
> allow any voice to be brought to nearly perfect in-tune?  If so, how can
> we, or can we, distinguish a terrific new talent from an ordinary nobody
> who has been autotuned?  For instance this one:****
>
> ** **
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOu0DuxFAT0&feature=player_embedded****
>
> ** **
>
> Real?  Or computer enhanced?  How can we know?****
>
> ** **
>
> spike****
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From darren.greer3 at gmail.com  Mon Nov 21 02:29:34 2011
From: darren.greer3 at gmail.com (Darren Greer)
Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2011 22:29:34 -0400
Subject: [ExI] question for electronic voice effects hipsters
In-Reply-To: <CAL+RtPfkX=gFxOGhUEtaF2trEw1J1ccB8oA=F5FYc-vPRgpUng@mail.gmail.com>
References: <010d01cca7f0$3a91b900$afb52b00$@att.net>
	<CAL+RtPfkX=gFxOGhUEtaF2trEw1J1ccB8oA=F5FYc-vPRgpUng@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOje6cjex=C5Oa7M9eFwi1+-KoAT33R7g0UdCKL_Rr6e+JQqog@mail.gmail.com>

>
>
> 2011/11/20 spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>

> ** **
>>
>> Have we experts among us on electronic voice enhancement?  Does autotune
>> allow any voice to be brought to nearly perfect in-tune?
>>
>

A quote from time magazine: " Auto-Tune doesn't make it possible for just
anyone to sing like a pro, but used as its creator intended, it can
transform a wavering performance into something technically flawless. "

Full article here.
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1877372,00.html


>> If so, how can we, or can we, distinguish a terrific new talent from an
>> ordinary nobody who has been autotuned?
>>
>
Phrasing. Vocal range. Timing. Interpretation.  And my particular favorite
though perhaps not relevant to this discussion: song-writing ability.

For instance this one:****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOu0DuxFAT0&feature=player_embedded****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> Real?  Or computer enhanced?
>>
>
No clue. Personally I hated it. But that's just a matter of taste.

Darren
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From spike66 at att.net  Mon Nov 21 02:57:50 2011
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2011 18:57:50 -0800
Subject: [ExI] question for electronic voice effects hipsters
In-Reply-To: <CAL+RtPfkX=gFxOGhUEtaF2trEw1J1ccB8oA=F5FYc-vPRgpUng@mail.gmail.com>
References: <010d01cca7f0$3a91b900$afb52b00$@att.net>
	<CAL+RtPfkX=gFxOGhUEtaF2trEw1J1ccB8oA=F5FYc-vPRgpUng@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <013301cca7f9$5b9d1be0$12d753a0$@att.net>

 

On Behalf Of Giovanni Santostasi
Subject: Re: [ExI] question for electronic voice effects hipsters

 

Why should it matter?

 

It should matter because I want to get a feel for how powerful voice
enhancement technology has become.  As a controls engineer, I have been for
years thinking about how we could take ordinary flawed voices and mimic the
transcendent quality of those few voices that stir the soul, such as Elvis
Presley, Karen Carpenter, Hayley Westenra, Josh Groban for instance, the
kinds of voices that only come around about one a decade.  What I want to
know is if we can create these kinds of sounds in arbitrary quantities.

 

Welcome are the enhancements.

Giovanni

I do welcome them indeed, but I want to know if this voice is synthesized.
If we can create soul stirring voices from ordinary talent, this is a
wonderful new day indeed.  I fear I will be disappointed to learn that Kina
Grannis is just a terrific young natural talent, and that we cannot yet
create these kinds of sounds from scratch.

 

spike 

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From spike66 at att.net  Mon Nov 21 02:59:48 2011
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2011 18:59:48 -0800
Subject: [ExI] question for electronic voice effects hipsters
In-Reply-To: <CAL+RtPenY+VoKBBG3k9_5PxkLVCePHm1Ua19ZQZR=fWxG=hSNA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <010d01cca7f0$3a91b900$afb52b00$@att.net>
	<CAL+RtPenY+VoKBBG3k9_5PxkLVCePHm1Ua19ZQZR=fWxG=hSNA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <013801cca7f9$a2466740$e6d335c0$@att.net>

 

 

On Behalf Of Giovanni Santostasi
Subject: Re: [ExI] question for electronic voice effects hipsters

 

You can see some other videos by the singer with only a classical guitar and
she is pretty good.

G

 

Doh!  I was hoping you could tell me her voice was worse than broken
fingernails on a chalk board, but we have this magic Butterworth filter
technology that transformed it into what we hear.

 

spike

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From msd001 at gmail.com  Mon Nov 21 03:53:58 2011
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2011 22:53:58 -0500
Subject: [ExI] New CERN neutrino speed results today,
 and the FTL signal is STILL THERE!
In-Reply-To: <1321823489.80003.YahooMailClassic@web82907.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <CAOje6chpP2Lzur-0B73MRa3PEiUv_wAV_58R9m6KZdodztS_Zg@mail.gmail.com>
	<1321823489.80003.YahooMailClassic@web82907.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAOJFdbLu+Poras-Ck3mmqgJx21EYBR7YiN83Bt4SLCyi5_ZqgA@mail.gmail.com>

2011/11/20 john clark <jonkc at bellsouth.net>
> Wow, John is right, that cup is dangerously near the edge! I'll put it in a safe place. It was nice of John to warn me about it, it's too bad that means oblivion for him and his entire universe, but that's life, nature just will not allow anybody to observe a paradox.
>
> I know what you're thinking, how could John be so incredibly stupid, he must have been completely out of his mind!? Why else would he deliberately buy an obsolete 14,400 Neutrino modem? Well, call me cheap if you want but I still think the 28,800 model is too expensive, besides I have it on very good authority that Apple will drop the price next year.

Many Worlds' garbage collectors use FTL signaling to prune the
overly-many into only the necessarily-many worlds that are potentially
"real" and have not-yet collapsed?

I guess if you really embrace the idea of multiple existences of
yourself you'd be willing to destroy your universe over something as
annoying as spilling your coffee so that another universe gets extra
run-time resources (where the spill doesn't happen).

Perhaps it's not as simple as the modem example.  'sounds more like
Improbability Drive.



From gsantostasi at gmail.com  Mon Nov 21 05:12:20 2011
From: gsantostasi at gmail.com (Giovanni Santostasi)
Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2011 23:12:20 -0600
Subject: [ExI] question for electronic voice effects hipsters
In-Reply-To: <013801cca7f9$a2466740$e6d335c0$@att.net>
References: <010d01cca7f0$3a91b900$afb52b00$@att.net>
	<CAL+RtPenY+VoKBBG3k9_5PxkLVCePHm1Ua19ZQZR=fWxG=hSNA@mail.gmail.com>
	<013801cca7f9$a2466740$e6d335c0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAL+RtPc5t0sMvt1wVJq5yMNN_Bg6U8AKROFxD91shnkxeTCwhg@mail.gmail.com>

Spike, not sure if fortunately or unfortunately, she is good.
Look at the other videos on youtube. She is pretty talented. I think the
autotune was used mostly to syncronize video and voice.
G.
2011/11/20 spike <spike66 at att.net>

> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> *On Behalf Of *Giovanni Santostasi
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] question for electronic voice effects hipsters****
>
> ** **
>
> You can see some other videos by the singer with only a classical guitar
> and she is pretty good.****
>
> G****
>
> ** **
>
> Doh!  I was hoping you could tell me her voice was worse than broken
> fingernails on a chalk board, but we have this magic Butterworth filter
> technology that transformed it into what we hear.****
>
> ** **
>
> spike****
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Nov 23 18:54:03 2011
From: nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk (Tom Nowell)
Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2011 18:54:03 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [ExI] longevity bulletin
In-Reply-To: <mailman.628.1321162412.598.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.628.1321162412.598.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <1322074443.15079.YahooMailNeo@web27005.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

For those interested in lifespan facts and figures, the UK Faculty and Institute of Actuaries just released bulletin no. 2
https://www.actuaries.org.uk/sites/all/files/documents/pdf/longevitybulletin02.pdf


Main article explains the differences in life expectancy projections, and the sources section at the end informs you where they get the figures from, if you want to do a little modelling yourself.

Tom



From pharos at gmail.com  Wed Nov 23 21:29:13 2011
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2011 21:29:13 +0000
Subject: [ExI] longevity bulletin
In-Reply-To: <1322074443.15079.YahooMailNeo@web27005.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.628.1321162412.598.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<1322074443.15079.YahooMailNeo@web27005.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armi=Bxa4OnZOyWCSJrk_n2horTm=7_vPUO_SgJncZt0tSA@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Nov 23, 2011 at 6:54 PM, Tom Nowell wrote:
> For those interested in lifespan facts and figures, the UK Faculty and Institute of Actuaries just released bulletin no. 2
> https://www.actuaries.org.uk/sites/all/files/documents/pdf/longevitybulletin02.pdf
>
> Main article explains the differences in life expectancy projections, and the sources section at the end informs you
> where they get the figures from, if you want to do a little modelling yourself.
>
>


Sounds good to me!  I think you just added 11 years to my expected
lifespan, so I'm not going to argue.  ;)


BillK


From eugen at leitl.org  Thu Nov 24 07:27:30 2011
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2011 08:27:30 +0100
Subject: [ExI] longevity bulletin
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armi=Bxa4OnZOyWCSJrk_n2horTm=7_vPUO_SgJncZt0tSA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.628.1321162412.598.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<1322074443.15079.YahooMailNeo@web27005.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
	<CAL_armi=Bxa4OnZOyWCSJrk_n2horTm=7_vPUO_SgJncZt0tSA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20111124072730.GL31847@leitl.org>

On Wed, Nov 23, 2011 at 09:29:13PM +0000, BillK wrote:

> Sounds good to me!  I think you just added 11 years to my expected
> lifespan, so I'm not going to argue.  ;)

You can far easily (and more reliably) to do that by your own
lifestyle choices.



From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Thu Nov 24 08:50:09 2011
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2011 01:50:09 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Anne McCaffrey has died
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy2-PKeCNUWkKHov4ckBfbi2g+bz8AQxN+hzattyjuyigA@mail.gmail.com>

Anne McCaffrey has passed away, and I never got the chance to meet
her!  : (  I always had thought a Pern film/tv series would have come
into being by this time...  Oh, well.  At least the network project
that would have been "Beverly Hills 90210 with Dragons" was aborted
before it went into production.


I have still not read "The Ship who Sang" series.


http://www.wired.com/geekdad/2011/11/r-i-p-anne-mccaffrey-1926-2011/


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ship_Who_Sang


John


From mbb386 at main.nc.us  Thu Nov 24 13:12:11 2011
From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB)
Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2011 08:12:11 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Anne McCaffrey has died
In-Reply-To: <CAGSKFy2-PKeCNUWkKHov4ckBfbi2g+bz8AQxN+hzattyjuyigA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGSKFy2-PKeCNUWkKHov4ckBfbi2g+bz8AQxN+hzattyjuyigA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b610a0c2c0b399dd00e783a6e45e3e83.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>


I am sorry to read this. She wrote a number of delightful books.

Neat lady.

Although a movie might have been good, so often movies are messed up versions of a
book and I'd rather have the movies of my mind, my own imagination.

Regards,
MB



From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Fri Nov 25 00:36:35 2011
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2011 17:36:35 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Ray Kurzweil consults on Roland Emmerich's upcoming film,
	"SINGULARITY"
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy2AHt3Ao+gy=hPG-ujeZSw+HEnB0Vcsu_ns+bf9utib3A@mail.gmail.com>

I hope this film, considering the title, turns out to be fairly good...


http://io9.com/5858502/will-ray-kurzweil-make-roland-emmerichs-singularity-movie-even-more-unrealistic-than-2012


John


From jonkc at bellsouth.net  Fri Nov 25 20:57:10 2011
From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (john clark)
Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2011 12:57:10 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ExI] Movie review: Melancholia
In-Reply-To: <CAL+RtPc5t0sMvt1wVJq5yMNN_Bg6U8AKROFxD91shnkxeTCwhg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1322254630.60822.YahooMailClassic@web82903.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I just saw the science fiction film Melancholia and it is is easily the worst movie I have ever spent money to see, or at least the first hour is, I can't comment on the remainder because I did something I have not done in over 25 years, I walked out of the theater before the movie was over. This turkey gives us a "plot" that is pretentious amateurish ridiculous and dull, characters with vapid dialog who emote with LONG vacant stares at the camera and try to convince us (unsuccessfully) that their melancholia means they are deep and not just self indulgent or have a chemical imbalance, and those aren't even the worst things about this movie. 

If Mr. von Trier can't give us something interesting to think about he could have at least presented something for us to look at without making one seasick, but apparently Mr. von Trier got a new zoom lens for his birthday and he was eager to try it out, so he zooms in, and then he zooms out, and then he zooms in, and then he zooms out again, and then he zooms way way way in and figures that would be the perfect time for a swish pan, and all the time he's playing with the zoom he's holding the camera as if fire ants were crawling up his pant legs and he was trying to shake them off. And I'm not just talking about one bad scene I'm talking about the entire first hour, perhaps the entire movie but I wouldn't know about that. Even Ed Wood knew more about how to move a camera than Mr. von Trier, I'm serious, Plan Nine from Outer Space showed more technical skill than Melancholia; so I would humbly suggest that before Mr. von Trier makes another home movie he
 sell his zoom lens and use the money to buy a tripod. 

?John K Clark? 
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From mbb386 at main.nc.us  Fri Nov 25 22:35:15 2011
From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB)
Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2011 17:35:15 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Movie review: Melancholia
In-Reply-To: <1322254630.60822.YahooMailClassic@web82903.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <1322254630.60822.YahooMailClassic@web82903.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <2383398e773ff88d1e7602dfb7ee2979.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>



> I just saw the science fiction film Melancholia and it is is easily the worst movie
> I have ever spent money to see, or at least the first hour is, I can't comment on
> the remainder because I did something I have not done in over 25 years, I walked out
> of the theater before the movie was over.

Gawwd!  Thanks for the heads-up. I'm sharing your critique with my son who likes
movies but suffers from motion sickness... maybe it will save him some money and
time!  Gee whiz.

Regards,
MB



From anders at aleph.se  Fri Nov 25 23:19:58 2011
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2011 00:19:58 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Movie review: Melancholia
In-Reply-To: <1322254630.60822.YahooMailClassic@web82903.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <1322254630.60822.YahooMailClassic@web82903.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4ED0229E.5040705@aleph.se>

Anybody expecting a science fiction film from von Trier probably has 
themselves to blame. Colliding planets does not make a film science 
fiction. He is mainly doing pretentious stuff... and occasionally fun 
horror like The Kingdom. But the default expectation should be something 
with overacted emotions and some experimental camera work.

-- 
Anders Sandberg,
Future of Humanity Institute
Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University 



From alito at organicrobot.com  Sat Nov 26 02:22:00 2011
From: alito at organicrobot.com (Alejandro Dubrovsky)
Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2011 13:22:00 +1100
Subject: [ExI] Movie review: Melancholia
In-Reply-To: <4ED0229E.5040705@aleph.se>
References: <1322254630.60822.YahooMailClassic@web82903.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<4ED0229E.5040705@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <4ED04D48.2080501@organicrobot.com>

On 11/26/11 10:19, Anders Sandberg wrote:
> Anybody expecting a science fiction film from von Trier probably has
> themselves to blame. Colliding planets does not make a film science
> fiction. He is mainly doing pretentious stuff... and occasionally fun
> horror like The Kingdom. But the default expectation should be something
> with overacted emotions and some experimental camera work.
> 

I think the default expectation should be something closer to "trying to
make the watcher uncomfortable". Also, I'll gladly take the title of
extropy-chat's biggest von Trier fan if noone else wants it.



From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Sat Nov 26 04:23:27 2011
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2011 21:23:27 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Movie review: Melancholia
In-Reply-To: <4ED04D48.2080501@organicrobot.com>
References: <1322254630.60822.YahooMailClassic@web82903.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<4ED0229E.5040705@aleph.se> <4ED04D48.2080501@organicrobot.com>
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy3MeqJ=sPJzoXZqCRnLEVf=Tvp=2t43NewwS4sTXJ6wpw@mail.gmail.com>

I was very impressed by some of Von Trier's earlier films, but based on the
reviews I have read, this movie is a real misfire.  But even a very
talented director can sometimes come out with a major dud.


John

On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 7:22 PM, Alejandro Dubrovsky <alito at organicrobot.com
> wrote:

> On 11/26/11 10:19, Anders Sandberg wrote:
> > Anybody expecting a science fiction film from von Trier probably has
> > themselves to blame. Colliding planets does not make a film science
> > fiction. He is mainly doing pretentious stuff... and occasionally fun
> > horror like The Kingdom. But the default expectation should be something
> > with overacted emotions and some experimental camera work.
> >
>
> I think the default expectation should be something closer to "trying to
> make the watcher uncomfortable". Also, I'll gladly take the title of
> extropy-chat's biggest von Trier fan if noone else wants it.
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Sat Nov 26 15:44:39 2011
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2011 07:44:39 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Getting into space cheaply
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB4gQvJCXTWQeXH=hdY5xxtxpN+QEG=wZdgBkAPLv5_Gjw@mail.gmail.com>

I think I have a conceptual method to reduce the cost of going into
space well below the $100/kg level.

It involves using beamed energy heated hydrogen that is combined with
ram air as long as there is air to scoop up.  The average eqivalent
exhaust velocity all the way to LEO is around 20 km/s, even better
than Skylon at 10.5 km/s to when it runs out of air.

If you are interested in a short writeup and the spreadsheet, let me know.

Keith


From jrd1415 at gmail.com  Sat Nov 26 15:49:23 2011
From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis)
Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2011 08:49:23 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Mars rover on its way
Message-ID: <CAHUTwkP-Bs538MkctSrdzMDXUP-COCHzNLUnXrzv-1mP-M-6jg@mail.gmail.com>

Launch sequence completed, flawlessly, one minute ago.

Best, Jeff Davis

                       "Everything's hard till you know how to do it."
                                                   Ray charles


From spike66 at att.net  Sat Nov 26 16:32:37 2011
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2011 08:32:37 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Mars rover on its way
In-Reply-To: <CAHUTwkP-Bs538MkctSrdzMDXUP-COCHzNLUnXrzv-1mP-M-6jg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHUTwkP-Bs538MkctSrdzMDXUP-COCHzNLUnXrzv-1mP-M-6jg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <003101ccac59$02d56cb0$08804610$@att.net>

On Behalf Of Jeff Davis
Subject: [ExI] Mars rover on its way

Launch sequence completed, flawlessly, one minute ago.

Best, Jeff Davis

                       "Everything's hard till you know how to do it."
                                                   Ray charles
_______________________________________________




The launch sequence isn't what scares me on this mission, it's that landing
sequence.  That is a controls engineering trick that will impress me
bigtime, if it works, but will not surprise me a bit if it fails.  Landing
something like Curiosity in the JPL way is one of those things Ray Charles
would agree is hard even after you know how to do it.

Good luck Curiosity!

spike



From atymes at gmail.com  Sat Nov 26 16:55:39 2011
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2011 08:55:39 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Getting into space cheaply
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB4gQvJCXTWQeXH=hdY5xxtxpN+QEG=wZdgBkAPLv5_Gjw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB4gQvJCXTWQeXH=hdY5xxtxpN+QEG=wZdgBkAPLv5_Gjw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNS_2EFjBgJKrfRi5K88my4Ztjz-=fRUJ1cQgM_BrOsS=w@mail.gmail.com>

How do you get the energy to the rocket on the far side of the planet from
the beam source?  Or would this require multiple beam emitters, spread
around the planet?

On Sat, Nov 26, 2011 at 7:44 AM, Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> wrote:
> I think I have a conceptual method to reduce the cost of going into
> space well below the $100/kg level.
>
> It involves using beamed energy heated hydrogen that is combined with
> ram air as long as there is air to scoop up. ?The average eqivalent
> exhaust velocity all the way to LEO is around 20 km/s, even better
> than Skylon at 10.5 km/s to when it runs out of air.
>
> If you are interested in a short writeup and the spreadsheet, let me know.
>
> Keith
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>



From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Sun Nov 27 07:50:03 2011
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2011 00:50:03 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Humor: Calvin and Hobbes bring up science fiction
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy0bruUWuUVeepQTJHitxdMt7t2BcOsZVeo8FhV++2nsow@mail.gmail.com>

I have a soft spot in my heart for Calvin and Hobbes...


http://www.gocomics.com/calvinandhobbes/2011/11/26


John


From anders at aleph.se  Sun Nov 27 07:06:41 2011
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2011 08:06:41 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Getting into space cheaply
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB4gQvJCXTWQeXH=hdY5xxtxpN+QEG=wZdgBkAPLv5_Gjw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB4gQvJCXTWQeXH=hdY5xxtxpN+QEG=wZdgBkAPLv5_Gjw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4ED1E181.5010005@aleph.se>

Keith Henson wrote:
> It involves using beamed energy heated hydrogen that is combined with
> ram air as long as there is air to scoop up.  The average eqivalent
> exhaust velocity all the way to LEO is around 20 km/s, even better
> than Skylon at 10.5 km/s to when it runs out of air.
>   

Any more thoughts about what opaqueing agents to use to make the laser 
heat the hydrogen efficiently? Or does this design not require them?

-- 
Anders Sandberg,
Future of Humanity Institute
Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University 



From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Sun Nov 27 11:26:35 2011
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2011 04:26:35 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Supercomputer speed/capacity prediction for 2020
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy2NY-fv__aEa_dM3Z95+njx8b5HuWUtEaUPkm5QmWNCSg@mail.gmail.com>

An excerpt from the article:

A group of researchers and scientists from around the world are working to
make the move from petaflops - 10 to the 15 operations per second - to
exaflops - 10 to the 18 operations per second - possible by 2020.

http://tnjn.com/2011/mar/23/supercomputers-to-increase-cap/


John
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From kellycoinguy at gmail.com  Sun Nov 27 12:14:02 2011
From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2011 05:14:02 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Weird new way to do physics
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1111071722030.27527@tau.ceti.pl>
References: <1320374743.97047.YahooMailNeo@web65604.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1111040547120.11638@tau.ceti.pl>
	<CAPoR7a6-uSgtTNZ-wD9+t=9LDUdJzmjntqhQCd0f52VKa+U+zg@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1111062147480.5388@tau.ceti.pl>
	<CAPoR7a4Dun4Ar0iDa9=VCOeUuqmXLqtxSWSwEwuGZOTF5kJsYw@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1111071722030.27527@tau.ceti.pl>
Message-ID: <CAPy8RwZB822qpZ6iyAb0wN7KtFX0mvDj444DsCdbs8CU82nmoQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Everyone!

  Again, sorry for the late reply to this thread... but on the subject
of picking a programming language and premature optimization, let me
share my personal observations of a little local company known as
WordPerfect. Back in the good old days around 1988, there was just one
really good word processor, and it was WordPerfect. It was written
entirely in assembly, and ran amazingly fast in 640K of memory, which
was all that was available to most people back in those good old days.
One day, a greasy little kid from Washington came up with this snazzy
new thing called Microsoft Windows. This enabled computers to use more
than 640K of memory, and many of the advantages of writing in
assembler went away... but the good folks at WordPerfect continued
their belief that only assembly was good enough for their program. And
they had quite a bit of trouble getting assembly to work right in this
new Windows world.

  Meanwhile, the greasy kid from Washington could not talk the
WordPerfect people into supporting his newfangled Windows program,
because they were too busy cooperating with IBM in producing a word
processor for the "obviously superior in every technical way" OS/2...
and the story started that Windows would be an also ran, and they
didn't immediatly port WordPerfect to Windows. And when they did, they
discovered it to be difficult. Very difficult. Partially because they
were still writing in assembler. Never mind now that WordPerfect ran
on something like 29 platforms already... So anyway, the kid from
Washington had to write his own word processor for Windows, and Word
was foisted upon the world.

  Fast forward to 2011, and Novel's grand scheme of buying WordPerfect
boils down to suing the greasy little kid from Washington, who is now
retired, for a couple of billion dollars. Even worse, they interrupted
his giving away his billions for a couple of days and dragged him to a
Utah court room. And even if they win, that will be the end of
WordPerfect.

  While there are many morals to this story, one moral is that picking
the most optimal programming language is usually the least of your
problems. Smart kids from another place are usually a bigger problem.

-Kelly


From kellycoinguy at gmail.com  Sun Nov 27 11:37:55 2011
From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2011 04:37:55 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Mars rover on its way
In-Reply-To: <003101ccac59$02d56cb0$08804610$@att.net>
References: <CAHUTwkP-Bs538MkctSrdzMDXUP-COCHzNLUnXrzv-1mP-M-6jg@mail.gmail.com>
	<003101ccac59$02d56cb0$08804610$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAPy8RwbmEQ7JhBoHYrfMqUvdVZjY6_8O6-QhCLuYEPwEPMQr3Q@mail.gmail.com>

> The launch sequence isn't what scares me on this mission, it's that landing
> sequence. ?That is a controls engineering trick that will impress me
> bigtime, if it works, but will not surprise me a bit if it fails. ?Landing
> something like Curiosity in the JPL way is one of those things Ray Charles
> would agree is hard even after you know how to do it.
>
> Good luck Curiosity!

Indeed. Aren't only about half of the missions to Mars successful to
date? Seems like everyone who goes there gets something wrong a lot of
the time. It would be nice for this one to work though!

-Kelly



From spike66 at att.net  Sun Nov 27 16:39:33 2011
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2011 08:39:33 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Mars rover on its way
In-Reply-To: <CAPy8RwbmEQ7JhBoHYrfMqUvdVZjY6_8O6-QhCLuYEPwEPMQr3Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHUTwkP-Bs538MkctSrdzMDXUP-COCHzNLUnXrzv-1mP-M-6jg@mail.gmail.com>	<003101ccac59$02d56cb0$08804610$@att.net>
	<CAPy8RwbmEQ7JhBoHYrfMqUvdVZjY6_8O6-QhCLuYEPwEPMQr3Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <003601ccad23$24a53850$6defa8f0$@att.net>


>... On Behalf Of Kelly Anderson
Subject: Re: [ExI] Mars rover on its way

>> The launch sequence isn't what scares me on this mission, it's that
landing sequence...

>Indeed. Aren't only about half of the missions to Mars successful to date?
Seems like everyone who goes there gets something wrong a lot of the time.
It would be nice for this one to work though! -Kelly


Mars landing missions are the controls engineer's playground.  This is JPL,
so you can be sure they would come up with something crazy complicated, but
before we discount their design, note that JPL influenced the Gravity Probe
B design, which was even more complicated than this mission, and it worked.
Yes I know PGB was primarily Stanford (go Cards!) but we used JPL assistance
for some of the controls stuff. 

Another way to think about it: assume the Curiosity mission's requirements,
then try to imagine the design alternatives.  Since you will be in transit
for over 8 months, you don't have the option of LOX/H2 retro-propellant, so
that means hauling probably monomethyl hydrazine and nitrogen tet, with all
the scaries that go with that stuff, then you get to the really cool
problems of how to detect and control altitude, speed and orientation,
maintaining all that with four propulsion systems, which is quite a trick
all by itself considering how many feedback loops are needed, all of which
must work perfectly on the first and only try.  

Given all the stuff Curiosity plans to do, the broad mission pushes the
design weight waaay up.  Consequently that balloon landing they did with
Spirit and Opportunity probably wouldn't work for something this heavy
(would it?  I think not.)  So you end up with wacky complicated stuff like
Curiosity's aerobrake, parachute, four retro-rockets and a tether notion,
and please please, we beseech thee O Holy Evolution, let this crazy scheme
work.  We want to know what Curiosity can tell us, should it survive the
landing sequence.

spike



From rtomek at ceti.pl  Sun Nov 27 16:56:01 2011
From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola)
Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2011 17:56:01 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [ExI] Weird new way to do physics
In-Reply-To: <CAPy8RwZB822qpZ6iyAb0wN7KtFX0mvDj444DsCdbs8CU82nmoQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1320374743.97047.YahooMailNeo@web65604.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1111040547120.11638@tau.ceti.pl>
	<CAPoR7a6-uSgtTNZ-wD9+t=9LDUdJzmjntqhQCd0f52VKa+U+zg@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1111062147480.5388@tau.ceti.pl>
	<CAPoR7a4Dun4Ar0iDa9=VCOeUuqmXLqtxSWSwEwuGZOTF5kJsYw@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1111071722030.27527@tau.ceti.pl>
	<CAPy8RwZB822qpZ6iyAb0wN7KtFX0mvDj444DsCdbs8CU82nmoQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1111271704060.23724@tau.ceti.pl>

On Sun, 27 Nov 2011, Kelly Anderson wrote:

> Hi Everyone!
> 
[...]
>   Meanwhile, the greasy kid from Washington could not talk the
> WordPerfect people into supporting his newfangled Windows program,
> because they were too busy cooperating with IBM in producing a word
> processor for the "obviously superior in every technical way" OS/2...
> and the story started that Windows would be an also ran, and they
> didn't immediatly port WordPerfect to Windows. And when they did, they
> discovered it to be difficult. Very difficult. Partially because they
> were still writing in assembler. Never mind now that WordPerfect ran
> on something like 29 platforms already... So anyway, the kid from
> Washington had to write his own word processor for Windows, and Word
> was foisted upon the world.

I smell a contradiction here... Since they have already ported WP to so 
many so different targets, the reason for failing with next port is not so 
obvious to me. Unless...

[...]
>   While there are many morals to this story, one moral is that picking
> the most optimal programming language is usually the least of your
> problems. Smart kids from another place are usually a bigger problem.

...unless the real problem with sleazy kids is they make their system in 
such a way, that only their own programs work well on such platform, while 
others are either denied the information or the system refuses running the 
program or... I think many application makers mark beginning of their fall 
as soon as they tried to compete with Sleazy Soft. Or as soon as Sleazy 
Soft turned its eye on their business. This has not so much to do with 
choice of right language or proper practice. IMHO, more like fighting 
uphill battle in the dark and using guns sold to you by your opponent. 
Wow, guns don't work. Wow, our maps are wrong. Crap.

If we add to this the demise of any other hardware beyond PC, there is 
simply no place to hide from Sleazy. Time will show if this is going to 
change. The playground is changing constantly. And the sleazy kids have 
the one problem, and very big - they are, I think, masters of one trick 
only.

Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.      **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home    **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...      **
**                                                                 **
** Tomasz Rola          mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com             **


From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Sun Nov 27 17:18:59 2011
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2011 18:18:59 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Supercomputer speed/capacity prediction for 2020
In-Reply-To: <CAGSKFy2NY-fv__aEa_dM3Z95+njx8b5HuWUtEaUPkm5QmWNCSg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGSKFy2NY-fv__aEa_dM3Z95+njx8b5HuWUtEaUPkm5QmWNCSg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a4yGR6tSWi+=6f2wMmjdvxcC-_THLH6EMfB_Jfu9iQ4DA@mail.gmail.com>

2011/11/27 John Grigg <possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com>

> An excerpt from the article:A group of researchers and scientists from
> around the world are working to make the move from petaflops - 10 to the 15
> operations per second - to exaflops - 10 to the 18 operations per second -
> possible by 2020.
>  http://tnjn.com/2011/mar/23/supercomputers-to-increase-cap/
>
>
Folding at home was expected to go through this threshold
first<http://www.gpucomputing.net/?q=node/5908>,
but while some of us do their best to support the project, see the
TranshumanistFoldingTeam<http://fah-web.stanford.edu/cgi-bin/main.py?qtype=teampage&teamnum=157440>,
their growth ratio seems have flattened. Quite a pity, given the importance
of the researches performed in the field of proteomics...

-- 
Stefano Vaj

<http://int.ask.com/web?siteid=10000861&webqsrc=999&l=dis&q=TranshumanistFoldingTeam>
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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Sun Nov 27 18:22:03 2011
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2011 19:22:03 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Mars rover on its way
In-Reply-To: <003601ccad23$24a53850$6defa8f0$@att.net>
References: <CAHUTwkP-Bs538MkctSrdzMDXUP-COCHzNLUnXrzv-1mP-M-6jg@mail.gmail.com>
	<003101ccac59$02d56cb0$08804610$@att.net>
	<CAPy8RwbmEQ7JhBoHYrfMqUvdVZjY6_8O6-QhCLuYEPwEPMQr3Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<003601ccad23$24a53850$6defa8f0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a7j_pEzHsR=4MpeADEaJ0F9c=X9tV4StpnRw7T3PCs=Kw@mail.gmail.com>

On 27 November 2011 17:39, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

> and please please, we beseech thee O Holy Evolution, let this crazy scheme
> work.  We want to know what Curiosity can tell us, should it survive the
> landing sequence.
>

Indeed. I would keep even my toes crossed but for how that would disturb my
deambulating during the wait... :-)

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Sun Nov 27 18:38:37 2011
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2011 19:38:37 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Weird new way to do physics
In-Reply-To: <CAPy8RwZB822qpZ6iyAb0wN7KtFX0mvDj444DsCdbs8CU82nmoQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1320374743.97047.YahooMailNeo@web65604.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1111040547120.11638@tau.ceti.pl>
	<CAPoR7a6-uSgtTNZ-wD9+t=9LDUdJzmjntqhQCd0f52VKa+U+zg@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1111062147480.5388@tau.ceti.pl>
	<CAPoR7a4Dun4Ar0iDa9=VCOeUuqmXLqtxSWSwEwuGZOTF5kJsYw@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1111071722030.27527@tau.ceti.pl>
	<CAPy8RwZB822qpZ6iyAb0wN7KtFX0mvDj444DsCdbs8CU82nmoQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a6hHUrVFLt7eg4d6pcSJdRH73BwT_J6vSDZTJF+ZPukqg@mail.gmail.com>

On 27 November 2011 13:14, Kelly Anderson <kellycoinguy at gmail.com> wrote:

> Again, sorry for the late reply to this thread... but on the subject
> of picking a programming language and premature optimization, let me
> share my personal observations of a little local company known as
> WordPerfect.
>

As in many morality stories, however, the historical truth is somewhat more
complicate.

Wordperfect for OS/2 was originally a character-based application, same as
the DOS version.

The reason why Wordperfect for Windows never succeeded has not much to do
with its programming language, but rather with the fact that it was based
on a function-key-centered user interface, same as Wordstar fundamentally
was making use of Ctrl-Key sequences and Word of drop-down menus.

Of course, only the last was consistent with a Windows-like environment -
or, for that matter, a Mac or OS/2 Presentation Manager one.

Adapting to the environment, however, would mean and meant to lose the
loyalty of existing users who had no more real reason other than the
trademark to use an altogether different wordprocessor anyway. A comma-22
situation.

The fact that Microsoft was controlling both the shell and the apps running
on it has been what made it a winner. Things were not different for Lotus
1-2-3 or Wordpro, etc.

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Sun Nov 27 19:01:06 2011
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2011 12:01:06 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Getting into space cheaply
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB4QhNYhBM-3ynBXpjz4veQBaUf683vGNGV9N1as2hJ4dA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Nov 27, 2011 at 5:00 AM,  Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:

> How do you get the energy to the rocket on the far side of the planet from
> the beam source? ?Or would this require multiple beam emitters, spread
> around the planet?

It goes into orbit in less distance than what you can see from GEO, in
the particular run on that spread sheet it took about 4,600 km to
reach orbital speed.

Anders Sandberg <anders at aleph.se> wrote:

> Any more thoughts about what opaqueing agents to use to make the laser
> heat the hydrogen efficiently? Or does this design not require them?

This is a teakettle design.  Surface skin is full of channels where
the hydrogen is pumped.  Overall reradiation loss is around 10% at
this temperature.

Keith



From kellycoinguy at gmail.com  Sun Nov 27 19:12:13 2011
From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2011 12:12:13 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Shrimp (was Re:  bull whoops ass)
Message-ID: <CAPy8RwZEy43noVHWs1qDqZx_zVLnDYSZhA6psp-FsAkFLOE9kA@mail.gmail.com>

2011/10/10 spike <spike66 at att.net>

>
> This whole thing has been simmering in my mind all weekend and putting me
> in a foul mood, so do allow me this one rant, and I will let it go, or try
> to.  We are all allowed an occasional righteous rant here occasionally, if
> we don?t abuse the privilege, and this is mine.
>

And if anyone wants to rant at me for answering old threads.. feel free! I
am deserving. Am trying to catch up...


> ****
>
> I have long known of bullfighting, and try to not think about this
> practice which I find most distasteful, for I have no moral high ground.
> Not only do I occasionally eat beef, I eat shrimp at every opportunity.
> One bull can feed an army of proles, but an army of shrimp must be slain to
> provide a most tasty sushi-meal for a single prole.  Furthermore, the bull
> is a farm animal one would suppose, but most shrimp are taken from the
> wild.  So this isn?t a moral argument exactly, although I may redouble my
> efforts to give up shrimp and cut down even further on beef.
>

Spike, You know that I don't usually give the environmentalist/
anti-capitalists/ OWS crowd an inch... but I do make a personal exception
with shrimp. Most of the shrimp in the United States is harvested from the
Gulf of Mexico and other continental shelves via a method known as bottom
trawling. The bycatch of this method is atrocious. Bycatch are the fish and
other animals that are caught, but not kept.. just thrown back into the
ocean. In addition, since the trawling is done on the bottom with weighted
nets, it destroys the bottom of the ocean floor, so plants, sea anemone,
coral and other such bottom dwellers are killed in addition to the animals
co-habitating with the shrimp. A video is worth a thousand words on this
one. It's even more striking when you know what the bottom of these areas
is supposed to look like... see the related video from the Arctic area for
a comparison...

If you have a strong stomach for over the top environmentalist bilge, here
is a Greenpeace produced piece that does give you the idea...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUHcD_jTgVA&feature=related

And now for something perhaps a bit more factual...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trawling

Alverson, et all suggest that shrimp fishing has the highest rate of
bycatch of any fishery, according to Wikipedia (cited in above article).
Alverson D L, Freeberg M K, Murawski S A and Pope J G. (1994) A global
assessment of fisheries bycatch and discards. FAO Fisheries Technical Paper
No 339 Rome, FAO 1994.

And finally, a humorous approach to bycatch
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7oVzM6LR-A
Where they claim that there are 5 pounds of bycatch for every pound of
shrimp. I've heard worse numbers than that before...

It may be worse for the larger shrimp too, though I can't find a reference
on that right now.

I was unable to find the National Geographic video of shrimp trawling and
bycatch in the Gulf that initially turned me off to shrimp. I still love
it, but I find my conscience pricked every time I indulge in the tasty
buggers, which isn't all that often any more.

I'm not an environmentalist in the anti-capitalist way, but I do love the
earth and will do things to protect it. Passing on shrimp is one of the
easiest things I can do that has a pretty big impact. I look forward to the
day when we can grow shrimp in the lab... in Kansas... :-)

I still love a good steak... even though a cow will put out more greenhouse
gas than an SUV... go Bessie go!!! Turn up the heat!!! I'm investing in
land in Canada... LOL!

-Kelly
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From kellycoinguy at gmail.com  Sun Nov 27 19:23:57 2011
From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2011 12:23:57 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Weird new way to do physics
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1111271704060.23724@tau.ceti.pl>
References: <1320374743.97047.YahooMailNeo@web65604.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1111040547120.11638@tau.ceti.pl>
	<CAPoR7a6-uSgtTNZ-wD9+t=9LDUdJzmjntqhQCd0f52VKa+U+zg@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1111062147480.5388@tau.ceti.pl>
	<CAPoR7a4Dun4Ar0iDa9=VCOeUuqmXLqtxSWSwEwuGZOTF5kJsYw@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1111071722030.27527@tau.ceti.pl>
	<CAPy8RwZB822qpZ6iyAb0wN7KtFX0mvDj444DsCdbs8CU82nmoQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1111271704060.23724@tau.ceti.pl>
Message-ID: <CAPy8Rwag_GQT0+WGmxTXAGXYwddUuaMtZYrY+dyqep5pa7tNzg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Nov 27, 2011 at 9:56 AM, Tomasz Rola <rtomek at ceti.pl> wrote:
> On Sun, 27 Nov 2011, Kelly Anderson wrote:
>
>> Hi Everyone!
>>
> [...]
>> ? Meanwhile, the greasy kid from Washington could not talk the
>> WordPerfect people into supporting his newfangled Windows program,
>> because they were too busy cooperating with IBM in producing a word
>> processor for the "obviously superior in every technical way" OS/2...
>> and the story started that Windows would be an also ran, and they
>> didn't immediatly port WordPerfect to Windows. And when they did, they
>> discovered it to be difficult. Very difficult. Partially because they
>> were still writing in assembler. Never mind now that WordPerfect ran
>> on something like 29 platforms already... So anyway, the kid from
>> Washington had to write his own word processor for Windows, and Word
>> was foisted upon the world.
>
> I smell a contradiction here... Since they have already ported WP to so
> many so different targets, the reason for failing with next port is not so
> obvious to me. Unless...

The NeXT was WordPerfect's first port to a mouse and windows system.
The guy who did it (in six months) started from scratch writing it in
Objective-C. Since he did it so fast and so well, he was promoted over
the group doing the port to Windows. They got a late start because (as
I heard from those involved) number three man Pete Peterson wanted to
teach Bill a lesson, by not supporting his new operating system by the
biggest program out there, WordPerfect. Guess Pete taught Bill a
lesson! Not!

> [...]
>> ? While there are many morals to this story, one moral is that picking
>> the most optimal programming language is usually the least of your
>> problems. Smart kids from another place are usually a bigger problem.
>
> ...unless the real problem with sleazy kids is they make their system in
> such a way, that only their own programs work well on such platform, while
> others are either denied the information or the system refuses running the
> program or... I think many application makers mark beginning of their fall
> as soon as they tried to compete with Sleazy Soft. Or as soon as Sleazy
> Soft turned its eye on their business. This has not so much to do with
> choice of right language or proper practice. IMHO, more like fighting
> uphill battle in the dark and using guns sold to you by your opponent.
> Wow, guns don't work. Wow, our maps are wrong. Crap.

And this is exactly what the trial currently going on in Utah is all
about. It will be interesting to see what the court has to say in the
end. Even though it will almost certainly be appealed, no matter who
wins. The money is just too big.

> If we add to this the demise of any other hardware beyond PC, there is
> simply no place to hide from Sleazy. Time will show if this is going to
> change. The playground is changing constantly. And the sleazy kids have
> the one problem, and very big - they are, I think, masters of one trick
> only.

We always have Linux...

As Stefano pointed out, the human interface to the first version of
WordPerfect was also flawed. This was because of two things. The power
of the "shared code" group that insisted that the Windows port use
large parts of the DOS program, and that they got a late start because
of the wish of Pete Peterson to punish Microsoft. There were a lot of
late nights over there when they finally figured out that Windows was
going to be relevant, and that OS/2 was going the way of the dodo.

It is a complex story to be sure. I'm just adding what I know from the
local folklore, living in Utah County the whole time this all was
going on. Of course the Pete Peterson thing was all rumor... but from
people that were pretty close to the situation. Some of whom were
really mad and blamed Pete, not Bill for their demise.

Why in the hell Novel decided to buy WordPerfect at the time was
completely beyond me, at the time. Some said it was because of the
personal relationship between Norda and Ashton... and because
WordPerfect's books were too disheveled for them to go public. Left
Alan with a problem of how to cash out... Alan had a very strong bias
against going public, thought that a private company was run better.
May be the case, but certainly not in the accounting department. Novel
got awful good at buying companies and killing them, and WP was just
the biggest example of a trend. Not that the companies they bought
were bad... just that Novel couldn't capitalize on them after the
acquisition.

My company was almost acquired by both WP and Novel at the time...
just for reference.

-Kelly



From kellycoinguy at gmail.com  Sun Nov 27 19:30:37 2011
From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2011 12:30:37 -0700
Subject: [ExI] China model vs. US model
In-Reply-To: <CAPoR7a4D8Ao17OD9G-FhqTkPNEsesRYVHv=9QeLYYd_Azgr_FQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOFRd6gYcvHHVq=rsPHKFNMX_C1fQTj1ME+EoD4E5q+6RnKMLA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAGSKFy3dqt0w1yDKspwHrbxLAE9=en3RBifih+M6JQCRMq8RMA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPy8RwapFqWWHJzUQc8cYzm6UpTp5LNv+QeKuj0DVitUVjDmhw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPoR7a4D8Ao17OD9G-FhqTkPNEsesRYVHv=9QeLYYd_Azgr_FQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPy8RwZgUHKcTpmgzcnAB9DKrgCneqXj9MzLa7Fv_3mASON5vQ@mail.gmail.com>

2011/11/12 Stefano Vaj <stefano.vaj at gmail.com>:
> On 11 November 2011 23:23, Kelly Anderson <kellycoinguy at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> We are also held back by years of idiotic bargaining with unions that
>> were hell bent on delivering the goods today, to hell with tomorrow.
>
> One wonders about libertarians' attitude towards unions (and cartels in
> general), which after all are consensual arrangements between willing
> parties to further their economic interests.

Whoa there big guy!!! Not in America. Most union members do not have
the option of opting out!!! It's join the union, or don't get the job.
Rand Paul is working on legislation to fix all this.. probably won't
see the light of day in the Senate, but a step in the right direction
for sure.

http://righttoworkcommittee.org/rprtwa_petition.aspx

I signed this petition... and would encourage like minded people to do
likewise... Samantha... Spike... Kasey... anyone? :-)

Voluntary unionization is one thing... and a free choice... what we
have in America today is quite different!

-Kelly


From atymes at gmail.com  Sun Nov 27 19:16:24 2011
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2011 11:16:24 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Getting into space cheaply
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB4QhNYhBM-3ynBXpjz4veQBaUf683vGNGV9N1as2hJ4dA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB4QhNYhBM-3ynBXpjz4veQBaUf683vGNGV9N1as2hJ4dA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNQtbnR7woRrnTNQK0e5==BS9quy7=HytTK_bMkhL3Nhnw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Nov 27, 2011 at 11:01 AM, Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, Nov 27, 2011 at 5:00 AM, ?Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:
>> How do you get the energy to the rocket on the far side of the planet from
>> the beam source? ?Or would this require multiple beam emitters, spread
>> around the planet?
>
> It goes into orbit in less distance than what you can see from GEO, in
> the particular run on that spread sheet it took about 4,600 km to
> reach orbital speed.

Irrelevant.  Upon launch, the satellite has an elliptical orbit.  It has to
undergo acceleration at the far side of the planet in order to achieve a
circular orbit.  Since that point is not within line of sight of the launch
point, no matter what its altitude, how are you getting energy to it at
that point?



From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Sun Nov 27 21:08:25 2011
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2011 22:08:25 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Weird new way to do physics
In-Reply-To: <CAPy8Rwag_GQT0+WGmxTXAGXYwddUuaMtZYrY+dyqep5pa7tNzg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1320374743.97047.YahooMailNeo@web65604.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1111040547120.11638@tau.ceti.pl>
	<CAPoR7a6-uSgtTNZ-wD9+t=9LDUdJzmjntqhQCd0f52VKa+U+zg@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1111062147480.5388@tau.ceti.pl>
	<CAPoR7a4Dun4Ar0iDa9=VCOeUuqmXLqtxSWSwEwuGZOTF5kJsYw@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1111071722030.27527@tau.ceti.pl>
	<CAPy8RwZB822qpZ6iyAb0wN7KtFX0mvDj444DsCdbs8CU82nmoQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1111271704060.23724@tau.ceti.pl>
	<CAPy8Rwag_GQT0+WGmxTXAGXYwddUuaMtZYrY+dyqep5pa7tNzg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a4RqZmpyMhZbAQw0hoDfF4On1vk-XEhUZe91s=tiNernA@mail.gmail.com>

On 27 November 2011 20:23, Kelly Anderson <kellycoinguy at gmail.com> wrote:

> As Stefano pointed out, the human interface to the first version of
> WordPerfect was also flawed. This was because of two things. The power
> of the "shared code" group that insisted that the Windows port use
> large parts of the DOS program, and that they got a late start because
> of the wish of Pete Peterson to punish Microsoft. There were a lot of
> late nights over there when they finally figured out that Windows was
> going to be relevant, and that OS/2 was going the way of the dodo.
>

Any OS/2 PM version would suffer from the same probs as the Windows one: in
such a change of paradigm only a marginal edge remained with regard to
existing Wordperfect users.

As to the "flawed" interface, I never liked it much, but given the number
of its fanatical followers I would not not be so adamant, and personally I
am a mourner of Wordstar, and kept using under OS/2 and Windows its DOS
version - certainly not the Windows version, suffering from the same probs
as Wordperfect for Windows or for Macintosh - as long as I could.
Basically, such things had a much steeper learning curves for casual users
and newcomers, but allowed a much more effective and extended and seemless
control to those used to them. Word is horribly clumsy, and only its
ill-deserved popularity can hide that. Another example of market failure...
:-)

I assume I should have switched to LaTex or something like that to keep a
similar experience, but my life was made simpler by adopting first Lotus
WordPro for OS/2 and then Staroffice/Openoffice.org/Libreoffice, under OS/2
first and then for Linux.

By the way, Corel is still making money out of the Wordperfect suite, even
though what made it popular especially in law firms is by now largely gone
in favour of a more extended compliance with Windows standards.

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From jrd1415 at gmail.com  Sun Nov 27 22:31:44 2011
From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis)
Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2011 15:31:44 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Shrimp (was Re: bull whoops ass)
In-Reply-To: <CAPy8RwZEy43noVHWs1qDqZx_zVLnDYSZhA6psp-FsAkFLOE9kA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPy8RwZEy43noVHWs1qDqZx_zVLnDYSZhA6psp-FsAkFLOE9kA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHUTwkMq5SuVQ5rz8MpyD6u0_eyyM5vOiSPuKPRN+57GOnnDyQ@mail.gmail.com>

Being a shrimp lover myself, I can sympathize.  But there's a rather
obvious solution that will allow you to stuff yourself with the little
yummies, while sparing yourself the environmental angst: farmed
shrimp, (of course).

Anywhere from a third to a half of all shrimp harvested for blissful
human gobbling are farmed.  So if you can find a way to distinguish
the farmed shrimp vs the enviro-rape shrimp, then you're good to chow
down.

Yeah, yeah, I know, shrimp farming has some sort of negative
environmental impact, as well.  Must get over it.  Where there's life,
there's guilt.

Soldier on.

Best, Jeff Davis

2011/11/27 Kelly Anderson <kellycoinguy at gmail.com>:
> 2011/10/10 spike <spike66 at att.net>
>>
>> This whole thing has been simmering in my mind all weekend and putting me
>> in a foul mood, so do allow me this one rant, and I will let it go, or try
>> to.? We are all allowed an occasional righteous rant here occasionally, if
>> we don?t abuse the privilege, and this is mine.
>
> And if anyone wants to rant at me for answering old threads.. feel free! I
> am deserving. Am trying to catch up...
>
>>
>> I have long known of bullfighting, and try to not think about this
>> practice which I find most distasteful, for I have no moral high ground.
>> Not only do I occasionally eat beef, I eat shrimp at every opportunity.? One
>> bull can feed an army of proles, but an army of shrimp must be slain to
>> provide a most tasty sushi-meal for a single prole.? Furthermore, the bull
>> is a farm animal one would suppose, but most shrimp are taken from the
>> wild.? So this isn?t a moral argument exactly, although I may redouble my
>> efforts to give up shrimp and cut down even further on beef.
>
> Spike, You know that I don't usually give the environmentalist/
> anti-capitalists/ OWS crowd an inch... but I do make a personal exception
> with shrimp. Most of the shrimp in the United States is harvested from the
> Gulf of Mexico and other continental shelves via a method known as bottom
> trawling. The bycatch of this method is atrocious. Bycatch are the fish and
> other animals that are caught, but not kept.. just thrown back into the
> ocean. In addition, since the trawling is done on the bottom with weighted
> nets, it destroys the bottom of the ocean floor, so plants, sea anemone,
> coral and other such bottom dwellers are killed in addition to the animals
> co-habitating with the shrimp. A video is worth a thousand words on this
> one. It's even more striking when you know what the bottom of these areas is
> supposed to look like... see the related video from the Arctic area for a
> comparison...
>
> If you have a strong stomach for over the top environmentalist bilge, here
> is a Greenpeace produced piece that does give you the idea...
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUHcD_jTgVA&feature=related
>
> And now for something perhaps a bit more factual...
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trawling
>
> Alverson, et all suggest that shrimp fishing has the highest rate of bycatch
> of any fishery, according to Wikipedia (cited in above article).
> Alverson D L, Freeberg M K, Murawski S A and Pope J G. (1994) A global
> assessment of fisheries bycatch and discards. FAO Fisheries Technical Paper
> No 339 Rome, FAO 1994.
>
> And finally, a humorous approach to bycatch
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7oVzM6LR-A
> Where they claim that there are 5 pounds of bycatch for every pound of
> shrimp. I've heard worse numbers than that before...
>
> It may be worse for the larger shrimp too, though I can't find a reference
> on that right now.
>
> I was unable to find the National Geographic video of shrimp trawling and
> bycatch in the Gulf that initially turned me off to shrimp. I still love it,
> but I find my conscience pricked every time I indulge in the tasty buggers,
> which isn't all that often any more.
>
> I'm not an environmentalist in the anti-capitalist way, but I do love the
> earth and will do things to protect it. Passing on shrimp is one of the
> easiest things I can do that has a pretty big impact. I look forward to the
> day when we can grow shrimp in the lab... in Kansas... :-)
>
> I still love a good steak... even though a cow will put out more greenhouse
> gas than an SUV... go Bessie go!!! Turn up the heat!!! I'm investing in land
> in Canada... LOL!
>
> -Kelly
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>



From kellycoinguy at gmail.com  Sun Nov 27 22:59:48 2011
From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2011 15:59:48 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Shrimp (was Re: bull whoops ass)
In-Reply-To: <CAHUTwkMq5SuVQ5rz8MpyD6u0_eyyM5vOiSPuKPRN+57GOnnDyQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPy8RwZEy43noVHWs1qDqZx_zVLnDYSZhA6psp-FsAkFLOE9kA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAHUTwkMq5SuVQ5rz8MpyD6u0_eyyM5vOiSPuKPRN+57GOnnDyQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPy8Rwa-c-pd2OJXim-oTZZS6_UHjiREmtADbJtLOCfws0CT6Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Nov 27, 2011 at 3:31 PM, Jeff Davis <jrd1415 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Being a shrimp lover myself, I can sympathize. ?But there's a rather
> obvious solution that will allow you to stuff yourself with the little
> yummies, while sparing yourself the environmental angst: farmed
> shrimp, (of course).
>
> Anywhere from a third to a half of all shrimp harvested for blissful
> human gobbling are farmed. ?So if you can find a way to distinguish
> the farmed shrimp vs the enviro-rape shrimp, then you're good to chow
> down.
>
> Yeah, yeah, I know, shrimp farming has some sort of negative
> environmental impact, as well. ?Must get over it. ?Where there's life,
> there's guilt.

Farmed shrimp is probably better than wild shrimp in terms of the
overall environmental impact. Almost all fish farms are close to shore
for the convenience of the workers involved, and to lower overall
expenses and cost to the consumer. The problem comes with the
concentration of waste near the shore. There isn't enough water churn
to flush it all out to sea fast enough, so you get a concentration of
nitrates in the water, which leads to an increase in algae growth
which kills mangroves, small wild fish, etc. It's a big problem, but
not a super duper big problem. As soon as you close the fish farm,
nature restores itself quickly... after all, nature is good at getting
rid of all kinds of shit.

The solution would appear simple enough... farm further out to sea...
the problem with that is that unfettered capitalism (which I am in
favor of) wants to farm in the low cost zones near shore.
Unfortunately, this impacts everyone else negatively... so in my
libertarian utopia, this would be a place for the limited government
(or better yet, a private assign of the government) to step in...
(sorry for any complete anarchists out there, but I'm sure you have
your own solutions, which I would love to hear) and impose a tax or
fine or levy that gives some other group the money necessary to clean
up the mess... the upshot of this is that the capitalistic bunch gets
to raise fish where it's cheaper, i.e. out in the middle of the ocean,
and balance is restored. Shrimp naturally assumes it's true price
INCLUDING the cost of cleaning up near shore activity, OR the cost of
farming out to sea, which ever is actually cheaper.

The unfettered capitalism of the California gold rush let people
destroy many environmentally sensitive sites in the Sierra Nevada and
other places. This is unacceptable (to me) moving forward. We know too
much about the true costs of such things. Unfettered capitalism must
not be allowed to make money at the expense of the environment we all
share, or the world will be a very dirty, smelly place, and it will be
very hard to live to be 400!

-Kelly



From kellycoinguy at gmail.com  Sun Nov 27 23:04:55 2011
From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2011 16:04:55 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Weird new way to do physics
In-Reply-To: <CAPoR7a4RqZmpyMhZbAQw0hoDfF4On1vk-XEhUZe91s=tiNernA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1320374743.97047.YahooMailNeo@web65604.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1111040547120.11638@tau.ceti.pl>
	<CAPoR7a6-uSgtTNZ-wD9+t=9LDUdJzmjntqhQCd0f52VKa+U+zg@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1111062147480.5388@tau.ceti.pl>
	<CAPoR7a4Dun4Ar0iDa9=VCOeUuqmXLqtxSWSwEwuGZOTF5kJsYw@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1111071722030.27527@tau.ceti.pl>
	<CAPy8RwZB822qpZ6iyAb0wN7KtFX0mvDj444DsCdbs8CU82nmoQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1111271704060.23724@tau.ceti.pl>
	<CAPy8Rwag_GQT0+WGmxTXAGXYwddUuaMtZYrY+dyqep5pa7tNzg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPoR7a4RqZmpyMhZbAQw0hoDfF4On1vk-XEhUZe91s=tiNernA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPy8RwbPhTN+RsPhwjHEbtbV11RTZR_LGxBsBXsCajH_3caK3Q@mail.gmail.com>

2011/11/27 Stefano Vaj <stefano.vaj at gmail.com>:
> On 27 November 2011 20:23, Kelly Anderson <kellycoinguy at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> As Stefano pointed out, the human interface to the first version of
>> WordPerfect was also flawed. This was because of two things. The power
>> of the "shared code" group that insisted that the Windows port use
>> large parts of the DOS program, and that they got a late start because
>> of the wish of Pete Peterson to punish Microsoft. There were a lot of
>> late nights over there when they finally figured out that Windows was
>> going to be relevant, and that OS/2 was going the way of the dodo.
>
> Any OS/2 PM version would suffer from the same probs as the Windows one: in
> such a change of paradigm only a marginal edge remained with regard to
> existing Wordperfect users.
>
> As to the "flawed" interface, I never liked it much, but given the number of
> its fanatical followers I would not not be so adamant, and personally I am a
> mourner of Wordstar, and kept using under OS/2 and Windows its DOS version -
> certainly not the Windows version, suffering from the same probs as
> Wordperfect for Windows or for Macintosh - as long as I could. Basically,
> such things had a much steeper learning curves for casual users and
> newcomers, but allowed a much more effective and extended and seemless
> control to those used to them. Word is horribly clumsy, and only its
> ill-deserved popularity can hide that. Another example of market failure...
> :-)

I really miss pe (aka pEdit), the text editor that WordPerfect made...
it rocked my world at the time. So much easier than vi.

What text editors do you use today? Not word processors, but text
editors (like Notepad, but with teeth).

-Kelly


From spike66 at att.net  Sun Nov 27 23:46:32 2011
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2011 15:46:32 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Shrimp
Message-ID: <006701ccad5e$cb48f8f0$61daead0$@att.net>

 

 

From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Kelly Anderson
.

If you have a strong stomach for over the top environmentalist bilge, here
is a Greenpeace produced piece that does give you the
idea...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUHcD_jTgVA
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUHcD_jTgVA&feature=related>
&feature=related




Ja, a bit of yellow journalism, but they make an interesting comment about
jillions of species not yet discovered.  I have no doubt that is true and
highly relevant, because we have just begun exploring the sea.

 

I have watched bugs most of my life.  As a kid, people gave me bug books,
and I knew my bugs.  They interest me more than land beasts in many ways
because of the terrific variety.  When you think about it, mammals are all
pretty much the same thing.  You can get a cat for instance, take it apart
piece by piece, and find there is a corresponding organ or bone in horses,
rats, humans, aardvarks, all mammals.  We are different shaped versions and
variations of each other.  But bugs are all over the map.

 

A few years ago, I saw an insect I had never seen before.  It looked like a
big cockroach with claws and a whip tail.  Closer inspection revealed it
wasn't an insect.  Eight legs!  Thanks to the web, I eventually discovered
it was a thelyphonida, probably a mastigoproctus.  After that day, I decided
to pop for a phone with a camera, in case I ever see an unknown (to me)
species.

 

OK so if I can go a over half a lifetime and see something like this exactly
once, it is just as easy I could have missed that.  The sea is filled with
oddball stuff, because there are so many very different ecological niches
all over the place down there, and not so many observers.  There are spiders
in the sea as well by the way.  We call them horseshoe crabs, but if you
pick up one and look underneath it, it's a big spider with a carapace on its
back.

 

So.  I will devour farmed shrimp, but let the others go.

 

spike

 

 

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From rtomek at ceti.pl  Mon Nov 28 02:15:32 2011
From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola)
Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 03:15:32 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [ExI] Weird new way to do physics
In-Reply-To: <CAPy8Rwag_GQT0+WGmxTXAGXYwddUuaMtZYrY+dyqep5pa7tNzg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1320374743.97047.YahooMailNeo@web65604.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1111040547120.11638@tau.ceti.pl>
	<CAPoR7a6-uSgtTNZ-wD9+t=9LDUdJzmjntqhQCd0f52VKa+U+zg@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1111062147480.5388@tau.ceti.pl>
	<CAPoR7a4Dun4Ar0iDa9=VCOeUuqmXLqtxSWSwEwuGZOTF5kJsYw@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1111071722030.27527@tau.ceti.pl>
	<CAPy8RwZB822qpZ6iyAb0wN7KtFX0mvDj444DsCdbs8CU82nmoQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1111271704060.23724@tau.ceti.pl>
	<CAPy8Rwag_GQT0+WGmxTXAGXYwddUuaMtZYrY+dyqep5pa7tNzg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1111280230000.23724@tau.ceti.pl>

On Sun, 27 Nov 2011, Kelly Anderson wrote:

> On Sun, Nov 27, 2011 at 9:56 AM, Tomasz Rola <rtomek at ceti.pl> wrote:
> > On Sun, 27 Nov 2011, Kelly Anderson wrote:
> >
> 
> We always have Linux...

Well, I guess this applies to ca. 7-10 percent of "we". I am very fine 
with Linux (and I stopped using Sleazy long ago, to the point it is out of 
my partitions, and I mostly used it for games before this, in theory at 
least because the Sleazy ceased playing old games).

But I admit it takes time to "feel" Linux. And every once and then I come 
to a fine puzzle that my computer gives me to solve, and I learn again and 
I'm happy (maybe even a bit proud) when I solve it. Especially when all 
forums visited prior to this show to have it wrong (I don't mean a 
"pussles" where all it takes is to read a part of manual).

In a way, Linux' target users are programmers. Or people with similar 
mindset. Some distros, like Ubuntu, can be used by "anybody" - until 
something hits the fan and "anybody" is asked to produce dmesg or fragment 
of syslog or compiling piece of C and showing what it writes. But I am 
happy to see Ubuntu on my laptop and maybe it will flourish even more.

The rest of the computer users is going to be fragged with mediocre 
designs. This is kind of decision, even if on unconscious level. However, 
since everything is connected, I may suffer because of Sleazy, too. As 
Perl programmer would have probably put it, "there is more than one way of 
suffering from other people's errors".

Just my 7 groszy (= 0.07 Polish zloty ~= 2 cents by today's exchange 
rate).

:-)

[...]
> It is a complex story to be sure. I'm just adding what I know from the
> local folklore, living in Utah County the whole time this all was
> going on. Of course the Pete Peterson thing was all rumor... but from
> people that were pretty close to the situation. Some of whom were
> really mad and blamed Pete, not Bill for their demise.
> 
> Why in the hell Novel decided to buy WordPerfect at the time was
> completely beyond me, at the time. Some said it was because of the
> personal relationship between Norda and Ashton... and because
> WordPerfect's books were too disheveled for them to go public. Left
> Alan with a problem of how to cash out... Alan had a very strong bias
> against going public, thought that a private company was run better.
> May be the case, but certainly not in the accounting department. Novel
> got awful good at buying companies and killing them, and WP was just
> the biggest example of a trend. Not that the companies they bought
> were bad... just that Novel couldn't capitalize on them after the
> acquisition.

Interesting, really. I keep forgetting that in many cases people 
voluntarily blow themselves up theirs and there are not any external 
factors to blame for this.

Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.      **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home    **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...      **
**                                                                 **
** Tomasz Rola          mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com             **


From brent.allsop at canonizer.com  Mon Nov 28 02:04:09 2011
From: brent.allsop at canonizer.com (Brent Allsop)
Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2011 19:04:09 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Proposal for collaboration with Wired Magazine and
	Canonizer.com
Message-ID: <4ED2EC19.6020208@canonizer.com>


Extropians,

We?re working on a proposal to take to a popular magazine like perhaps 
Wired, Scientific American, or something.

Googling seems to indicate that Betsy Mason is the current science 
editor for wired. I?m wondering if any of you know her, or anyone else 
at wired?

Below is a draft of a proposed cold call e-mail we were thinking of 
sending I?d be very interested to know what any of you would think, if 
you were at wired, and received a cold call e-mail something like this. 
And what do you think our possibilities of success, or not, would be 
with all this?

Thanks,

Brent Allsop



=================================================

To: Betsy Mason (Science Editor, Wired Magazine)
Subject: Collaboration proposal with wired magazine and Canonizer.com


Hello Betsy Mason,

If you have a minute, we have a proposal for a possible co-operative 
venture between Wired and Canonizer.com that we believe could be very 
mutually beneficial.

My name is Brent Allsop, one of the volunteers working on a wiki system 
that solves the communication problems plaguing Wikipedia, and the 
internet as a whole. This is a consensus building open survey system 
enabling large crowds to communicate with everyone concisely and 
quantitatively. It can do things like eliminate edit wars by creating 
wiki camps, and provide a measure of expert consensus on the reliability 
of any controversial information. This method of enabling crowds to work 
to communicate concisely and quantitatively amplifies and educates the 
wisdom of the entire crowd in many significant ways.

Science works best when theoretical scientists make testable 
predictions, as Einstein did, so the experimental scientists can get 
funding and then do the test for and thereby validated or falsify them. 
The problem is, most theoretical fields aren't this cut and dried. If a 
theoretical field is very ideologically charged such that people's 
entire religious view of themselves and their ability to survive well 
into the eternities could be drastically effected; If there are 
thousands of diverse theories; If most people struggle to get a handle 
on even one or more of these theories, let alone the majority of them. 
If there is no way to determine which of the thousands of theories are 
the best, which are fading, having been falsified for most experts, and 
which are new, emerging ones, dramatically approaching and possibly 
surpassing any currently leading ones - making it impossible for anyone 
to avoid wasting critical time on the huge number of primitive or crazy 
theories; If experimental researchers have no objective evidence that 
their proposed experiment is the most important experiment to be done in 
their effort to receive funding; If all the individual experts describe 
their current working hypothesis using their own custom contradictory 
and subtly different in critical ways terminology; there is little 
chance of any good scientific discovers coming out of such fields.

As an experimental proof of concept test of what this amplification of 
the wisdom of the crowd system can do, we started the Consciousness 
Survey Project to see if we could get any kind of a good unbiased survey 
on this theoretical field that arguably suffers from all these problems 
more than any other. Clearly, very smart people have been struggling to 
produce any kind of consensus or anything experimental scientists could 
test for, for centuries, with little to show for their work. Most 
people, including experimental researchers, ridicule the field as mere 
"Philosophies of Men". The exponentially exploding volume of information 
coming out of this field continues to do little but lead everyone, even 
the experts, to believe that most everyone is only critical of their own 
theories, and that nobody can agree on anything.

This consciousness survey project started out with only a few hobbyists, 
computer programmers with no philosophy training, including high school 
students and so on participating and doing the bulk of the wiki work in 
their spare time. Along the way we've picked up some real experts such 
as Steven Lehar, Stuart Hameroff, John Smythies, and a growing number of 
others, confirming and accelerating what we were all learning and 
developing by communicating in this manner. Watching the various 
theories start to emerge, and seeing where early leading groups of 
consensus are forming, has been exciting and surprising. Unlike the 
nobody agrees on anything results coming out of the ivory tower, the 
internet, from Wikipedia, in the name of "neutral POV", and everywhere, 
we're seeing dramatically different results. The early results seem to 
be hinting that there could be a huge amount of expert consensus, after 
all, on a great many critically important things in this field.

Despite all this drama, this canonized data is just that - raw 
scientific survey data that isn't very approachable to the general 
public. All that is missing is some good science reporting of all this 
drama. In sports, you have callers reporting on the exciting drama, as 
it unfolds, one team surpassing another, as the crowd watches and 
cheers. Our thinking is that such front row, understandable to all, 
seats to these competing theories being developed would be far more 
interesting to intelligent people than any other 'reality show'. So what 
the volunteers working on this project are seeking is a partnership with 
a modern, wired, news reporting publication company such as possibly 
Wired, Scientific American, Discover, or whatever. We are dreaming of 
having at least an introductory article describing this open survey 
process, and the surprising consensus results we have achieved so far, 
along with our solicitation of any interested Wired readers to participate.

Many of the participators, having experienced firsthand, this 
amplification of the wisdom of the crowd, are now in the camp that 
believes even a general crowd of readers, most of them not necessarily 
affiliated with the established academia, could quickly surpass what the 
establishment has been able to produce to date. The predicted results 
being an easily digestible set of improving, state of the art, concisely 
stated theories, in a consistent language, along with quantitative 
historical measures of how well accepted each was and is by this growing 
crowd. The leading theories would have accurate descriptions of how to 
test for the predictions being made in such a way that specific 
scientific experiments could be funded to validate them - falsifying all 
competing theories or vice verse.

The prediction is that, after this co-operative experiment between 
Wired, Wired readers, and Canonizer.com, the only remaining task would 
be for the nuts and bolts researchers to do the described tests, and 
validate or falsify them. If this experimental co-operation with a 
science news magazine is in any way successful, this could ultimately 
lead to what could become the most revolutionary scientific achievement 
of all time - the objective discovery of the subjective mind and its 
connection to the underlying brain matter. Obviously, as soon as all the 
experts start to abandon primitive falsified camps, and converge on any 
one theory, it will be the required proof that success has been 
achieved. The early consensus already emerging appears to indicate we 
might already be well on our way. If so, there is no telling where a 
collaboration between such a news organization and Canonizer.com could 
go from there.

The growing crowd of volunteers from around the world, looking to expand 
this survey process, are excitedly looking forward to hearing from you, 
and finding out any thoughts you, or anyone at wired, may have along 
these lines or anything.

Upwards,

Brent Allsop
Founder Canonizer.com




From rtomek at ceti.pl  Mon Nov 28 02:50:15 2011
From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola)
Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 03:50:15 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [ExI] Weird new way to do physics
In-Reply-To: <CAPoR7a4RqZmpyMhZbAQw0hoDfF4On1vk-XEhUZe91s=tiNernA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1320374743.97047.YahooMailNeo@web65604.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1111040547120.11638@tau.ceti.pl>
	<CAPoR7a6-uSgtTNZ-wD9+t=9LDUdJzmjntqhQCd0f52VKa+U+zg@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1111062147480.5388@tau.ceti.pl>
	<CAPoR7a4Dun4Ar0iDa9=VCOeUuqmXLqtxSWSwEwuGZOTF5kJsYw@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1111071722030.27527@tau.ceti.pl>
	<CAPy8RwZB822qpZ6iyAb0wN7KtFX0mvDj444DsCdbs8CU82nmoQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1111271704060.23724@tau.ceti.pl>
	<CAPy8Rwag_GQT0+WGmxTXAGXYwddUuaMtZYrY+dyqep5pa7tNzg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPoR7a4RqZmpyMhZbAQw0hoDfF4On1vk-XEhUZe91s=tiNernA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1111280316410.23724@tau.ceti.pl>

On Sun, 27 Nov 2011, Stefano Vaj wrote:

> I assume I should have switched to LaTex or something like that to keep a
> similar experience, but my life was made simpler by adopting first Lotus
> WordPro for OS/2 and then Staroffice/Openoffice.org/Libreoffice, under OS/2
> first and then for Linux.

TeX & LaTeX (actually a TeX extension it is) are nice when one plans, for 
example, to retain long term compatibility with texting on computer. There 
will be time, when all those books written in close formats become 
unreadable. Or they will require proofreading to make sure their 
conversion worked out.

So far, I think the most portable (over ages, too) doc format is plain 
ascii text.

Originally, TeX files were saved as plain ascii, so... (I think it is 
possible to use it with Unicode, too, but I'm not that advanced).

OTOH, it is so powerful (from what I have seen) that it is a real 
overkill. Fortunately, LaTeX is much easier and what's more, it is 
probably possible to learn its functional equivalent of word proc in about 
one afternoon (or I don't have high opinion about word processing). 
Provided you have it all installed and working.

Leslie Lamport wrote a good book on LaTeX, I learned from it. I don't 
remember title in English (mine was in Polish).

And nice text editor would help a lot. Something that could color TeX 
commands etc. Like, maybe Emacs or Vim. There are also LyX and Texmacs, 
which are WYSIWYG (or some other acronym, I Knew What I Meant? 
whatever...) but I don't know how nice they really are.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LaTeX

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_TeX_editors

Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.      **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home    **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...      **
**                                                                 **
** Tomasz Rola          mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com             **


From rtomek at ceti.pl  Mon Nov 28 03:18:06 2011
From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola)
Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 04:18:06 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [ExI] Weird new way to do physics
In-Reply-To: <CAPy8RwbPhTN+RsPhwjHEbtbV11RTZR_LGxBsBXsCajH_3caK3Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1320374743.97047.YahooMailNeo@web65604.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1111040547120.11638@tau.ceti.pl>
	<CAPoR7a6-uSgtTNZ-wD9+t=9LDUdJzmjntqhQCd0f52VKa+U+zg@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1111062147480.5388@tau.ceti.pl>
	<CAPoR7a4Dun4Ar0iDa9=VCOeUuqmXLqtxSWSwEwuGZOTF5kJsYw@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1111071722030.27527@tau.ceti.pl>
	<CAPy8RwZB822qpZ6iyAb0wN7KtFX0mvDj444DsCdbs8CU82nmoQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1111271704060.23724@tau.ceti.pl>
	<CAPy8Rwag_GQT0+WGmxTXAGXYwddUuaMtZYrY+dyqep5pa7tNzg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPoR7a4RqZmpyMhZbAQw0hoDfF4On1vk-XEhUZe91s=tiNernA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPy8RwbPhTN+RsPhwjHEbtbV11RTZR_LGxBsBXsCajH_3caK3Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1111280357590.23724@tau.ceti.pl>

On Sun, 27 Nov 2011, Kelly Anderson wrote:

> I really miss pe (aka pEdit), the text editor that WordPerfect made...
> it rocked my world at the time. So much easier than vi.
> 
> What text editors do you use today? Not word processors, but text
> editors (like Notepad, but with teeth).

Yup. I tend to use Gnu Emacs almost exclusively. I liked its keystrokes 
over vi and later I became intrigued by its internal Lisp interpreter.

>From time to time, especially in low-mem env I use (g)vim. It has some 
nice programmability, too. But I remain subscribed to Lisp. AFAIK vi is 
the first editor installed by many Linux flavors, so it's good to know it 
in case install goes wonky.

BTW, does sed count? I use it, sometimes, in command line etc. And cat, 
too, but this was only few times (there was a Linux once, where vi didn't 
install and I had to concoct a clone of grep that always returned only 
one thing, so that install could proceed).

I have read above paragraphs. Now I see that I am a bit strange and not 
like the merry people on the street. But at least I can do something with 
a cat that they never ever dreamt of.

Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.      **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home    **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...      **
**                                                                 **
** Tomasz Rola          mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com             **


From atymes at gmail.com  Mon Nov 28 03:39:48 2011
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2011 19:39:48 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Proposal for collaboration with Wired Magazine and
	Canonizer.com
In-Reply-To: <4ED2EC19.6020208@canonizer.com>
References: <4ED2EC19.6020208@canonizer.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNQZVAY4LvQ1VOc4GfTWLE8D6mztw1+h4BNhWRNBu2xY2w@mail.gmail.com>

1) Get to the point FASTER.  I read over this, assuming the mindset of
a typical overworked editor who's used to dealing with dozens of
crackpot suggestions from outsiders that turn out to be of no benefit to
the magazine, and yea, this came off as too long by midway through
the third paragraph, so I didn't read the rest (until I came back to being
myself).  If Betsy doesn't even read the meat of your proposal, that's an
automatic rejection.

2) Use shorter paragraphs.  This is a subset of point 1.

3) Get to the point at the start of a paragraph, not in the middle as you
do here.  Speed reading to see what you're actually suggesting skims
the first sentence of each paragraph.

4) Clearly state what exactly you are proposing.  Put bluntly, this draft
does not do that.

All of these can be accomplished by clearly detailing exactly what you
are suggesting after a single short paragraph.  Delete everything
starting with "My name is Brent Allsop..." (which is unnecessary: if
you're sending this, the email system will say that you are Brent
Allsop - and even if it doesn't, you'd better be signing it Brent Allsop
anyway), and IMMEDIATELY outline the partnership you propose.

Only after you have outlined it, do you go into why this would be a
good idea.  This should be your third paragraph.

Paragraphs four and beyond can be the history, and explaining
unusual stuff.  For instance, in paragraph two you might say, "We
believe an article about Canonizer would be of interest to your
readers", and wait until paragraph four to explain what Canonizer
is.

But yeah.  Scrap almost all of what you have here: it's worse than
useless for your intended goal.

On Sun, Nov 27, 2011 at 6:04 PM, Brent Allsop
<brent.allsop at canonizer.com> wrote:
>
> Extropians,
>
> We?re working on a proposal to take to a popular magazine like perhaps
> Wired, Scientific American, or something.
>
> Googling seems to indicate that Betsy Mason is the current science editor
> for wired. I?m wondering if any of you know her, or anyone else at wired?
>
> Below is a draft of a proposed cold call e-mail we were thinking of sending
> I?d be very interested to know what any of you would think, if you were at
> wired, and received a cold call e-mail something like this. And what do you
> think our possibilities of success, or not, would be with all this?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Brent Allsop
>
>
>
> =================================================
>
> To: Betsy Mason (Science Editor, Wired Magazine)
> Subject: Collaboration proposal with wired magazine and Canonizer.com
>
>
> Hello Betsy Mason,
>
> If you have a minute, we have a proposal for a possible co-operative venture
> between Wired and Canonizer.com that we believe could be very mutually
> beneficial.
>
> My name is Brent Allsop, one of the volunteers working on a wiki system that
> solves the communication problems plaguing Wikipedia, and the internet as a
> whole. This is a consensus building open survey system enabling large crowds
> to communicate with everyone concisely and quantitatively. It can do things
> like eliminate edit wars by creating wiki camps, and provide a measure of
> expert consensus on the reliability of any controversial information. This
> method of enabling crowds to work to communicate concisely and
> quantitatively amplifies and educates the wisdom of the entire crowd in many
> significant ways.
>
> Science works best when theoretical scientists make testable predictions, as
> Einstein did, so the experimental scientists can get funding and then do the
> test for and thereby validated or falsify them. The problem is, most
> theoretical fields aren't this cut and dried. If a theoretical field is very
> ideologically charged such that people's entire religious view of themselves
> and their ability to survive well into the eternities could be drastically
> effected; If there are thousands of diverse theories; If most people
> struggle to get a handle on even one or more of these theories, let alone
> the majority of them. If there is no way to determine which of the thousands
> of theories are the best, which are fading, having been falsified for most
> experts, and which are new, emerging ones, dramatically approaching and
> possibly surpassing any currently leading ones - making it impossible for
> anyone to avoid wasting critical time on the huge number of primitive or
> crazy theories; If experimental researchers have no objective evidence that
> their proposed experiment is the most important experiment to be done in
> their effort to receive funding; If all the individual experts describe
> their current working hypothesis using their own custom contradictory and
> subtly different in critical ways terminology; there is little chance of any
> good scientific discovers coming out of such fields.
>
> As an experimental proof of concept test of what this amplification of the
> wisdom of the crowd system can do, we started the Consciousness Survey
> Project to see if we could get any kind of a good unbiased survey on this
> theoretical field that arguably suffers from all these problems more than
> any other. Clearly, very smart people have been struggling to produce any
> kind of consensus or anything experimental scientists could test for, for
> centuries, with little to show for their work. Most people, including
> experimental researchers, ridicule the field as mere "Philosophies of Men".
> The exponentially exploding volume of information coming out of this field
> continues to do little but lead everyone, even the experts, to believe that
> most everyone is only critical of their own theories, and that nobody can
> agree on anything.
>
> This consciousness survey project started out with only a few hobbyists,
> computer programmers with no philosophy training, including high school
> students and so on participating and doing the bulk of the wiki work in
> their spare time. Along the way we've picked up some real experts such as
> Steven Lehar, Stuart Hameroff, John Smythies, and a growing number of
> others, confirming and accelerating what we were all learning and developing
> by communicating in this manner. Watching the various theories start to
> emerge, and seeing where early leading groups of consensus are forming, has
> been exciting and surprising. Unlike the nobody agrees on anything results
> coming out of the ivory tower, the internet, from Wikipedia, in the name of
> "neutral POV", and everywhere, we're seeing dramatically different results.
> The early results seem to be hinting that there could be a huge amount of
> expert consensus, after all, on a great many critically important things in
> this field.
>
> Despite all this drama, this canonized data is just that - raw scientific
> survey data that isn't very approachable to the general public. All that is
> missing is some good science reporting of all this drama. In sports, you
> have callers reporting on the exciting drama, as it unfolds, one team
> surpassing another, as the crowd watches and cheers. Our thinking is that
> such front row, understandable to all, seats to these competing theories
> being developed would be far more interesting to intelligent people than any
> other 'reality show'. So what the volunteers working on this project are
> seeking is a partnership with a modern, wired, news reporting publication
> company such as possibly Wired, Scientific American, Discover, or whatever.
> We are dreaming of having at least an introductory article describing this
> open survey process, and the surprising consensus results we have achieved
> so far, along with our solicitation of any interested Wired readers to
> participate.
>
> Many of the participators, having experienced firsthand, this amplification
> of the wisdom of the crowd, are now in the camp that believes even a general
> crowd of readers, most of them not necessarily affiliated with the
> established academia, could quickly surpass what the establishment has been
> able to produce to date. The predicted results being an easily digestible
> set of improving, state of the art, concisely stated theories, in a
> consistent language, along with quantitative historical measures of how well
> accepted each was and is by this growing crowd. The leading theories would
> have accurate descriptions of how to test for the predictions being made in
> such a way that specific scientific experiments could be funded to validate
> them - falsifying all competing theories or vice verse.
>
> The prediction is that, after this co-operative experiment between Wired,
> Wired readers, and Canonizer.com, the only remaining task would be for the
> nuts and bolts researchers to do the described tests, and validate or
> falsify them. If this experimental co-operation with a science news magazine
> is in any way successful, this could ultimately lead to what could become
> the most revolutionary scientific achievement of all time - the objective
> discovery of the subjective mind and its connection to the underlying brain
> matter. Obviously, as soon as all the experts start to abandon primitive
> falsified camps, and converge on any one theory, it will be the required
> proof that success has been achieved. The early consensus already emerging
> appears to indicate we might already be well on our way. If so, there is no
> telling where a collaboration between such a news organization and
> Canonizer.com could go from there.
>
> The growing crowd of volunteers from around the world, looking to expand
> this survey process, are excitedly looking forward to hearing from you, and
> finding out any thoughts you, or anyone at wired, may have along these lines
> or anything.
>
> Upwards,
>
> Brent Allsop
> Founder Canonizer.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>



From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Mon Nov 28 04:34:45 2011
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2011 20:34:45 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ExI] Retrocausal Writing
Message-ID: <1322454885.88125.YahooMailNeo@web65610.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

?
?
I have a question for those rather prolific writers on the list. As opposed to those times where one suffers from the dreaded writer's block has anyone else here had any instances where a piece of writing be it a novel, academic paper, or what have you simply seemed to write itself? When this occurs did you ever?gett the sense that the?finished work?was using you as a means to bring it into being? If so might this qualify as evidence of retrocausality?
?

Stuart LaForge


?Institutions will try to preserve the problem to which they are the solution." -Clay Shirky



From atymes at gmail.com  Mon Nov 28 05:27:31 2011
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2011 21:27:31 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Retrocausal Writing
In-Reply-To: <1322454885.88125.YahooMailNeo@web65610.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <1322454885.88125.YahooMailNeo@web65610.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNSJ0iFyQcVJJXBKcBQq3BjoZeApZikEXMST6SgZayKgdg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Nov 27, 2011 at 8:34 PM, The Avantguardian
<avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> has anyone else here had any instances where a piece of writing be it a novel, academic paper, or what have you simply seemed to write itself?

*raises hand*

> When this occurs did you ever?gett the sense that the?finished work?was using you as a means to bring it into being?

*keeps hand raised*

> If so might this qualify as evidence of retrocausality?

Nope.  There are different states of "being".  The idea can be fully
formed inside your head - but that's just it: it's _inside your head_.
 Ideas there exist in a different, less solid or "real" form than when
they're in a form that can be transmitted to someone else (such as
once they're written down or spoken).

What's inspiring you is not the actual finished work, though it can
seem like that at first.  Rather, what's inspiring you is the pattern
that you can very easily see how to make into a finished work - so
easy, in fact, that it seems as if you are nothing but a tool for this
pattern's end, the same way you might use a pen or a keyboard.



From eugen at leitl.org  Mon Nov 28 07:25:30 2011
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 08:25:30 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Shrimp
In-Reply-To: <006701ccad5e$cb48f8f0$61daead0$@att.net>
References: <006701ccad5e$cb48f8f0$61daead0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <20111128072529.GG31847@leitl.org>

On Sun, Nov 27, 2011 at 03:46:32PM -0800, spike wrote:

> I have watched bugs most of my life.  As a kid, people gave me bug books,
> and I knew my bugs.  They interest me more than land beasts in many ways
> because of the terrific variety.  When you think about it, mammals are all

I have the right subreddit for you right here http://www.reddit.com/r/whatsthisbug/

> pretty much the same thing.  You can get a cat for instance, take it apart
> piece by piece, and find there is a corresponding organ or bone in horses,
> rats, humans, aardvarks, all mammals.  We are different shaped versions and
> variations of each other.  But bugs are all over the map.

-- 
Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE


From anders at aleph.se  Mon Nov 28 08:33:19 2011
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 09:33:19 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Proposal for collaboration with Wired Magazine
	and	Canonizer.com
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNQZVAY4LvQ1VOc4GfTWLE8D6mztw1+h4BNhWRNBu2xY2w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4ED2EC19.6020208@canonizer.com>
	<CALAdGNQZVAY4LvQ1VOc4GfTWLE8D6mztw1+h4BNhWRNBu2xY2w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4ED3474F.6090504@aleph.se>

I agree with Adrian. Editors and other journalists are overworked, have 
short deadlines and a high information flow. "If you have a minute" is a 
natural point for any professional to skip the mail - they don't :-)

So use the first paragraph as a kind of abstract - say what you want to 
do, mention some cool stuff that might make Wired interested. If they 
get interested they will read the rest.

Even better than cold-calling is of course if you know or can find 
somebody at Wired. Or go via Kurzweilnet?

-- 
Anders Sandberg,
Future of Humanity Institute
Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University 



From steinberg.will at gmail.com  Mon Nov 28 08:19:10 2011
From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg)
Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 02:19:10 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Retrocausal Writing
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNSJ0iFyQcVJJXBKcBQq3BjoZeApZikEXMST6SgZayKgdg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1322454885.88125.YahooMailNeo@web65610.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
	<CALAdGNSJ0iFyQcVJJXBKcBQq3BjoZeApZikEXMST6SgZayKgdg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKrqSyGkXLt_6Fj-Cpq8VhxSr7LMYHeV34QLued+i+JdbkKyNg@mail.gmail.com>

the thesis has theoretical existence as a symbol-being.  you first
comprehend the symbol-being, in an ineffable sort of way, and then do what
you can to produce in language what will adequately recreate that
symbol-being for other humans.
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From amara at kurzweilai.net  Mon Nov 28 08:45:53 2011
From: amara at kurzweilai.net (Amara D. Angelica)
Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 00:45:53 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Proposal for collaboration with Wired
	Magazine	and	Canonizer.com
In-Reply-To: <4ED3474F.6090504@aleph.se>
References: <4ED2EC19.6020208@canonizer.com>	<CALAdGNQZVAY4LvQ1VOc4GfTWLE8D6mztw1+h4BNhWRNBu2xY2w@mail.gmail.com>
	<4ED3474F.6090504@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <022601ccadaa$23a4a4e0$6aedeea0$@net>

We would be very much interested (on a non-exclusive basis).


-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Anders Sandberg
Sent: Monday, November 28, 2011 12:33 AM
To: ExI chat list
Subject: Re: [ExI] Proposal for collaboration with Wired Magazine and
Canonizer.com

I agree with Adrian. Editors and other journalists are overworked, have 
short deadlines and a high information flow. "If you have a minute" is a 
natural point for any professional to skip the mail - they don't :-)

So use the first paragraph as a kind of abstract - say what you want to 
do, mention some cool stuff that might make Wired interested. If they 
get interested they will read the rest.

Even better than cold-calling is of course if you know or can find 
somebody at Wired. Or go via Kurzweilnet?

-- 
Anders Sandberg,
Future of Humanity Institute
Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University 

_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat



From darren.greer3 at gmail.com  Mon Nov 28 11:47:38 2011
From: darren.greer3 at gmail.com (Darren Greer)
Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 07:47:38 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Retrocausal Writing
In-Reply-To: <1322454885.88125.YahooMailNeo@web65610.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <1322454885.88125.YahooMailNeo@web65610.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAOje6ciAUwm6383n50KpMUtgGLit5KezsjJezgSnOKOS6+Lg6w@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Nov 28, 2011 at 12:34 AM, The Avantguardian <
avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com> wrote:

has anyone else here had any instances where a piece of writing be it a
novel, academic paper, or what have you simply seemed to write itself?

I've had it and so have others I've talked too. But I've also had times
when the damn thing had to be extracted with a chain lift and the work has
been just as good. Or part of what you're writing comes effortlessly and
seemingly fully formed and others don't.

When this occurs did you ever get the sense that the finished work was
using you as a means to bring it into being?

Yes, but I agree with with Adrian. When this happens it's as if
the subconsciousness has already written the book and you're
just consciously overseeing the details of its production. One of the
abilities required to write fiction, at least, seems to be rooted in the
ability to store and then extract seemingly unrelated bits information and
make broad connections between them. This takes place largely on
an unconscious level, or it least it does in my experience. So sometimes it
seems as if you're not doing the work but something or someone else is.


If so might this qualify as evidence of retrocausality?

I had a strange experience a couple of months ago which messed with my
head. I had written a scene where an author gets up in front of a room full
of people to do a reading and a member of the audience stands up and
accuses him of being a fraud and a reprobate. A few days later
a friend gave me a movie that I had never heard of nor seen and asked me to
watch it. The first scene in the film was identical to the scene I had
written a few days before. The whole thing was quite creepy.
Retrocausility? I doubt it. I tend to believe that I actually had seen the
film before and couldn't remember. Or I had been told about it. Or it was
just a massive coincidence. I was more impressed with the brain's ability
to store and then recall information than I was with a possible
time-related disruption of inertial frames of reference.
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From dan_ust at yahoo.com  Mon Nov 28 14:35:52 2011
From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan)
Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 06:35:52 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ExI] Life began with a planetary mega-organism?
In-Reply-To: <1322489892.82955.YahooMailNeo@web160606.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <1322489892.82955.YahooMailNeo@web160606.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1322490952.38080.YahooMailNeo@web160617.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21228404.300-life-began-with-a-planetary-megaorganism.html

Someone sent this to the Lem list. Naturally, I was wondering why no one here picked up on it... Or did I miss the post?

Anyhow, I think they're taking this too far, but it might be a useful idea to stimulate further thought and speculation.

Regards,

Dan
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From eugen at leitl.org  Mon Nov 28 15:38:52 2011
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 16:38:52 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Life began with a planetary mega-organism?
In-Reply-To: <1322490952.38080.YahooMailNeo@web160617.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <1322489892.82955.YahooMailNeo@web160606.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<1322490952.38080.YahooMailNeo@web160617.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20111128153852.GL31847@leitl.org>

On Mon, Nov 28, 2011 at 06:35:52AM -0800, Dan wrote:
> http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21228404.300-life-began-with-a-planetary-megaorganism.html
> 
> Someone sent this to the Lem list. Naturally, I was wondering why no one here picked up on it... Or did I miss the post?

Depends on the list: http://postbiota.org/pipermail/tt/2011-November/010150.html

This one doesn't news very well.

With the Lem list do you mean http://homepages.rpi.edu/~sofkam/lem/lem-l.html ?
 
> Anyhow, I think they're taking this too far, but it might be a useful idea to stimulate further thought and speculation.

-- 
Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE


From dan_ust at yahoo.com  Mon Nov 28 15:47:07 2011
From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan)
Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 07:47:07 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ExI] Life began with a planetary mega-organism?
In-Reply-To: <20111128153852.GL31847@leitl.org>
References: <1322489892.82955.YahooMailNeo@web160606.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<1322490952.38080.YahooMailNeo@web160617.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<20111128153852.GL31847@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <1322495227.18845.YahooMailNeo@web160615.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

Eugen, by Lem list, yes, I meant  http://homepages.rpi.edu/~sofkam/lem/lem-l.html 


Regards,

Dan
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From msd001 at gmail.com  Tue Nov 29 00:00:18 2011
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 19:00:18 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Life began with a planetary mega-organism?
In-Reply-To: <1322490952.38080.YahooMailNeo@web160617.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <1322489892.82955.YahooMailNeo@web160606.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<1322490952.38080.YahooMailNeo@web160617.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAOJFdbLDys4rQeWckLg146Q4RPGVyE_kci4W9mP9h_uX2gZWpw@mail.gmail.com>

2011/11/28 Dan <dan_ust at yahoo.com>:
> http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21228404.300-life-began-with-a-planetary-megaorganism.html
>
> Someone sent this to the Lem list. Naturally, I was wondering why no one
> here picked up on it... Or did I miss the post?
>
> Anyhow, I think they're taking this too far, but it might be a useful idea
> to stimulate further thought and speculation.

"New and useful molecules would have been passed from cell to cell
without competition, and eventually gone global"

Sounds to me like the genes-memes-temes progression doesn't start far
enough back.  Maybe the point is that it's cyclical.  The Internet
today is the "Luca" of tomorrow's digital life?  Remember when a few
comments on 4chan could spark a storm of popular culture that lasted
for 3 planetary revolutions at a time?  "Good times."  :)


From lubkin at unreasonable.com  Wed Nov 30 14:10:35 2011
From: lubkin at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin)
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2011 09:10:35 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Retrocausal Writing
In-Reply-To: <1322454885.88125.YahooMailNeo@web65610.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <1322454885.88125.YahooMailNeo@web65610.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <201111301434.pAUEYGg9007252@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

The Avantguardian wrote:

>any instances where a piece of writing be it a novel, academic 
>paper, or what have you simply seemed to write itself? When this 
>occurs did you ever get the sense that the finished work was using 
>you as a means to bring it into being?

When Michelangelo was sculpting, he'd reject dozens of
blocks of marble that seemed perfectly fine to his assistants.
Once he found the right block, he thought the rest of the
process was easy and obvious: The sculpture is already
within the block; just chip off everything that's not part of it.

More recently, there have been many writers who relate that
they see the story unfold in their mind's eye, and all they're
doing is writing down what they see. Then there's Heinlein's
gimmick of World as Myth -- that beloved fictional worlds
have actual existence. (Or that *we're* in someone else's
fiction, ref. 1942's "The Unpleasant Occupation of Jonathon
Hoag.")


-- David.



From kellycoinguy at gmail.com  Wed Nov 30 23:47:39 2011
From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2011 16:47:39 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Life began with a planetary mega-organism?
In-Reply-To: <1322490952.38080.YahooMailNeo@web160617.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <1322489892.82955.YahooMailNeo@web160606.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<1322490952.38080.YahooMailNeo@web160617.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAPy8RwYf3v6_nNHjLmrEU9NSnRUp=TU5shPfandf8p2KkKqLUQ@mail.gmail.com>

2011/11/28 Dan <dan_ust at yahoo.com>:
> http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21228404.300-life-began-with-a-planetary-megaorganism.html
>
> Someone sent this to the Lem list. Naturally, I was wondering why no one
> here picked up on it... Or did I miss the post?
>
> Anyhow, I think they're taking this too far, but it might be a useful idea
> to stimulate further thought and speculation.

It's really a matter of semantics... was the first life form really a
single planet sized cell? Or a soup of replicating chemicals of some
sort?

The article talked about the first evidence of chemical life being
detected some time before the first fossil cells. Does anyone know
what this evidence is?

I'm having a "discussion" with the local Jehovah's Witnesses, and I
don't know enough about the chemical origins of life to rain on that
part of their parade... Though I have thoroughly rained on other parts
of their festive procession.

How much do we know about the chemical origins of life? Their book is
quite out of date (circa 1985) so I'm assuming that a lot of the stuff
they are talking about is entirely out of date, in addition to being
misleading. I really don't understand why they have to resort to
quoting people out of context so very much... sigh. If the truth is on
your side, why would you have to be so tricky about it??

-Kelly