From natasha at natasha.cc  Wed Aug  1 00:20:17 2012
From: natasha at natasha.cc (natasha at natasha.cc)
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2012 20:20:17 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Welcome to the Future
In-Reply-To: <CAPoR7a5qWhuYnpD2ri4x0FghHaPE2nvkm902SYi1Cz_R3SuKJg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <201207312034.q6VKY14V026231@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <CAJX-7wVfAiVgfVydSHaTSZWQuBbx=VTGM-MfVahkNmKTFBHxZw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a5qWhuYnpD2ri4x0FghHaPE2nvkm902SYi1Cz_R3SuKJg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120731202017.nb6nqpkxcocw04cs@webmail.natasha.cc>

Quoting Stefano Vaj <stefano.vaj at gmail.com>:

> On 1 August 2012 01:05, Max More <max at maxmore.com> wrote:
>
>> Stop trying to predict the future and focus on making it happen!
>
> This should be carved in stone on every transhumanist doorstep.

Yes!

Natasha




From mrjones2020 at gmail.com  Wed Aug  1 02:09:51 2012
From: mrjones2020 at gmail.com (J.R. Jones)
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2012 22:09:51 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Written for another list
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB6XaQ7=YZtXJCE2-yLRzP0UJXP=No+_d+6HdxAwQqjWLw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB7-tNN-SJb2-XCVU3qYihvvFKH1in2kDWO_z0==xT2c4Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB7zu4QwOrbawVO60avEepRiX3CE44K1R3CkK-dBhHUVSg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB6XaQ7=YZtXJCE2-yLRzP0UJXP=No+_d+6HdxAwQqjWLw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CADDVf2KRGeLLC4iTQzB2LTLOvNjHN9iHAReyK=R+R4k+d4pCfw@mail.gmail.com>

On Jul 31, 2012 3:28 PM, "Keith Henson" <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Tue, Jul 31, 2012 at 5:00 AM,   "Henrique Moraes Machado"
> <cetico.iconoclasta at gmail.com> wrote:
> > And what about that maglev launcher system that people have been talking
> > recently. Better or worse (if it ever get built)?
>
> A long time ago (before the net) I ran through the engineering
> numbers.  At this remove all I remember of that effort was that it
> really didn't look good at all.  It was barely possible on the moon.
>
> I have been ask this so many times that I should either look up a
> place where it is refuted or write one myself.  As I recall, at
> constant acceleration it takes too much power near the end, at
> constant power it gets too long.
>

We need space elevators, plain n simple*.
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From rtomek at ceti.pl  Wed Aug  1 03:42:05 2012
From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola)
Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 05:42:05 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] Pistorius
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2czst0Mo_yNfDfZTr5id3X6vdxZ0muXL9qk7-XroHmifQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <50134DBC.4060204@aleph.se>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1207312114020.6453@tau.ceti.pl>
 <CAM5aL2czst0Mo_yNfDfZTr5id3X6vdxZ0muXL9qk7-XroHmifQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1208010459310.25364@tau.ceti.pl>

On Tue, 31 Jul 2012, Dave Sill wrote:

> On Tue, Jul 31, 2012 at 3:52 PM, Tomasz Rola <rtomek at ceti.pl> wrote:
> 
> > As far as I can tell, sport has two aspects about itself:
> >
> 
> I think there are more than just these two...

I think there are many aspects of every thing, but I, being ignorant in 
every domain other than how to waste time without a trace, prefer to 
reduce problem so as not to sound like a complete idiot. And even then 
results are disputable... :-)

> > 2. Competitive one, where "guys" want to be the first because it gives them
> > lots of money, their sponsors can bet and earn even more.
> 
> 
> There are lots of competitive athletes who want to be first just because
> they have competitive spirit. The two sports in which I compete, autocross
> and rowing, are strictly amateur. Cheating is pretty uncommon because
> there's not big money at stake.

Oh well, I have heard of competitive spirit. I could argue this belongs to 
heroic-popular part, but this would be cheap, because the truth is, it 
didn't come to my mind while I was writing about sports. Last time I 
thought about it, was while watching some guys doing breakdance. Last time 
I felt something like this, was during algorithmic competition year ago 
(cheating happened but poor cockbusters have been eradicated).

But sport, uh, it did not connect with the idea in my head. I know this 
tells a lot about my cynicysm and hurts a lot of people who get in just 
for the love of it. Perhaps it even tells a bit about sport itself. IMHO, 
the gap between pro and amateur sport is big and growing, it's just very 
inconvienient to show this openly, so it stays behind the scene. Of 
course, the gap is not equally big in every discipline. And in pro-future, 
there is going to be lots of enhancements of every kind. Pistorius case is 
just a very benign start of it. In a way, ideals of "citius, altius, 
fortius" will stay there (and enhancements will be introduced in the name 
of those ideals). Myself, I would really like to go and enjoy thriathlon 
from the inside, but this is not going to happen before I become a 
cyborgized (and supercharged) me. So, what kind of spirit drives me, I 
sometimes wonder. Either vanity or competitive spirit...

Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.      **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home    **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...      **
**                                                                 **
** Tomasz Rola          mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com             **


From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Wed Aug  1 04:52:01 2012
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2012 21:52:01 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Written for another list
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB6L=_NbJy-kpwe5ssCsUwfBBfQsFwuauNv7PmzdN_xEZA@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jul 31, 2012 at 3:26 PM,  Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Tue, Jul 31, 2012 at 12:00 PM, Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Mon, Jul 30, 2012 at 7:36 AM, Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> That's acceptable for powering
>>>> lasers, but I can't see much of a market for multiple GW at 20 times
>>>> the cost of electricity from nuclear plants.
>>>
>>> Nope.  If the cost of electricity is higher than what you get
>>> off the grid, then it's not acceptable for powering lasers,
>>> since you could just get it off the grid instead.
>>
>> That would be lovely.  Do you have any suggestions of how to draw 7 GW
>> off the grid from GEO?
>
> Ah, I thought you were talking groundside.
>
> But if it's 20 times the cost of nuclear reactors in GEO,
> then it's cheaper just to put nuclear reactors in GEO,
> and the higher cost is still not acceptable even for
> powering lasers.

Let me try again.

In the bootstrap plan I have outlined, the power from the first
expensive (built with conventional rockets) power sat is used to power
propulsion lasers.  That lets you build more power sats at a much
lower cost than the first one.  The energy the first one generates is
worth around 100 times as much bringing up parts for more power
satellites as it would be to sell it to ground markets.

So it is worth building the first one even though it costs more than
it would be worth if all you could do is sell the power to earth
markets.

>> It is possible to send the laser beams up to GEO and bounce them from
>> there down to the launch vehicle path some 4000 km along the equator.
>> It may even be more economical because tracking mirrors should be
>> lighter, but the risk factor of it not working due to atmospheric
>> distortion is high.  After looking at alternatives, putting a first
>> power plant and laser in GEO with conventional rockets looked to be
>> the lower total cost and risk.  This is subject to further analysis.
>> Want to do it?
>
> No, because I don't buy your premise that it is not
> practical to demonstrate this at a much lower scale.
>
>>>> I can send you the spreadsheet for the financial model if you want to
>>>> try making money on conventional propulsion.
>>>
>>> I might be interested in taking a look *if* your spreadsheet
>>> includes the costs of the intermediate conventional
>>> propulsion stage.  If it does not, then you need to add that
>>> before it is a complete, realistic model.
>>
>> It does, of course.  But only to build the first propulsion laser, not
>> to sell power for a dollar a kWh.  Now if you have a *market* for 5 GW
>> of power at a dollar a kWh, we are in business.
>
> Hmm, let's see.  You know of any customers who
> 1) are operating in a mostly-sunny environment,
> 2) have a high cost of importing fuel to their bases,
> 3) have a need for mobility (like, say, being able to
> repoint their incoming power),
> 4) already have a no-fly zone above the places they
> would like to get power, and
> 5) have a history of "price is no object" mentalities?
>
> Granted, their current need won't last forever.  But
> if they can pay to get the sat up there, and they
> take most of the power - you only need to tap it for
> a few minutes (maybe up to half an hour) to do the
> launch, and these intervals can be scheduled for
> moments of anticipated low demand - then, well...

There has been a lot of looking at selling power from space to the
military.  Never reached the big study phase because there are just
too many problems.  The military wants power in MW or sub MW chunks.
Microwave power sats at 2.45 GHz don't scale below 5 GW, that's 5000
MW, so you have to use lasers, relatively small ones compared to 3.5
GW for propulsion.  Laser about doubles the losses from 50% to 75%.
It also means the power is cut with every passing cloud.

But if we were to build laser power sats for the military, they would
probable use them as weapons rather than power.

>>>> Perhaps.  I freely admit the model may have errors in assumptions or
>>>> formula.  Though saying that without looking at the model seems a bit
>>>> over the top.
>>>
>>> No, it's basic business theory.  If you can make a profit with
>>> practice X after it's developed, and a lesser profit with
>>> practice Y that does not take significant development, then
>>> you can compare the efficiency of developing X and then
>>> making more money over time versus just using Y.
>>
>> I f can figure out a way to get this started on a smaller scale,
>> please do.  If you can, I will support your efforts.  I am not welded
>> to this approach.
>
> What is the gating factor on cost per kg, that makes a
> 10 ton solar satellite that much more efficient than a 1
> ton, or a 0.1 ton?
>
> (Side note: "a 0.1"?  "an 0.1"?  Spike, maybe you could
> clue me in as to which is correct?)

For a given frequency at one of the atmospheric windows such as 2.45
GHz, the minimum size to focus the microwave power beam is 1 km on the
power sat and 10 km on the ground, or the other way around.  This is
what leads to the huge size of these things, the microwave optics.
This has been understood for over 200 years, look up Airy disk.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airy_disk

>> As an analogy, it is not possible to mine a low grade ore body and
>> make money if you try to do it on a small scale.  Sunlight is a low
>> grade (dilute) energy source.  Collecting it on a scale of tens of TW
>> is a big task no matter how you slice it.
>
> If tracking mirrors are that much cheaper and lighter,
> then how about replacing most of the PV cells with
> those?

Some of the proposals do concentrate light.  The limit for
concentrating light on PV depends on how hot the PV cells can run and
how well they are cooled.  I favor thermal designs (Carnot engines)
largely because they can be substantially smaller (they are more
efficient) for a given power output.

>>>> I am mainly interested in making a case that there *is* a way out of
>>>> the energy/carbon problems without an 80% die off.
>>>
>>> The theoretical case has long been made.  The challenge now
>>> is the litmus test: actually doing it.
>>
>> That's news to me.  Where?
>
> The theoretical case having been made?  Here, for one.
> This very list.

I don't remember such discussion.  Could you point me to an actual
post?  In a case where we are talking about avoiding an 80% die off,
it's not much use to say they sun puts out plenty of energy so we
don't have a problem.  We do have a problem because sunlight is a
dilute energy source.  It's not easy make economical use of it, and
uneconomical modes cause the 80% die off.

> Most of the general public does not seriously believe
> that humanity will have an 80% or worse die off in the
> next century, but they do believe that the energy/carbon
> problems will get, if not solved, at least not very much
> worse than they already are - which generally requires
> at least a partial solution.
>
>>>> The cost of power at current $10,000/kg is dominated by the lift cost
>>>> of ~50,000/kW.  Cost of power at that transport rate is ~$2/kWh.
>>>>
>>>> For zero lift cost, the cost would be around 1.4 cents per kWh.  The
>>>> derivation of this is in the paper.
>>>
>>> It sounds like you have bigger concerns than the lift cost, if
>>> that is not a majority of the cost.
>>
>> It's around a third of the total cost.  I really don't understand your
>> objection to the other costs.  Do you know of a less expensive way to
>> make and transmit power to the Earth?
>
> Strawman.  My objections regarding the other costs have
> to do with the other costs themselves, not the benefits.
> To wit: what *are* the other costs, and how big of a factor
> are they?

You mean you don't understand the cost of generation equipment?  It's
a highly developed field with razor thin margins and a long history of
slow improvements.  You can get a feel for the cost by looking up what
an emergency generator costs.   PV cells are around a $1000/kW (peak).

snip

>> If you can follow the physics, why not is in here:
>> http://www.sspi.gatech.edu/aiaa-2009-0462_ssp_alternatives_potter.pdf
>>
>> There are scaling problems that are due to the transmission of
>> microwaves through the atmosphere and the distance to GEO.
>>
>> It is about the same expense to built one demonstration power
>> satellite with conventional rockets as it is to set up the
>> transportation pipeline and build them by the hundreds.
>
> The paper was written by Boeing.  Boeing institutionally
> does not believe in cheap solutions: they threaten
> Boeing's business model.  They have a history of making
> assumptions to justify keeping things expensive.

I know these people personally.  They are not influenced by Boeing
business model in this assessment.

> A demonstration - pure demonstrator - satellite can be built
> and launched for tens of thousands - not millions - of dollars.
> It's called a CubeSat.

You could pack a few mW of microwave transmitter into a CubSat.

Why bother when there are communication satellites pouring down as
much as ten kW of microwaves?

> Yes, it would provide tiny - infinitesimal - power to the ground.
> Yes, it would not be cost-efficient to do just 1U CubeSats.
>
> But as a pure demonstrator?  There is a world of difference
> between "trivial" and "nothing".
>
> Besides, if lasers really are that much better, and provide
> you energy for every launch thereafter, could you bootstrap:
> launch something small, then use it to power launching
> something a bit bigger, then gang them up to power
> launching something yet bigger, and so on exponentially?
>
> How much mass could you launch at once with, say, a
> single kW?  How many such launches would you need to
> make your next kW?

You have the right idea, but the scaling laws won't let you do it that
small.  There is a size, 5-10 tons depending on the technology, below
which you can't get *any* payload to orbit.  It has to do with the
amount of atmosphere you have to punch through, and the square/cube
scaling of the vehicles.  I assure you that if I could start with 1 kW
I would.

Keith


From eugen at leitl.org  Wed Aug  1 06:06:08 2012
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 08:06:08 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Written for another list
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv3LyqVTv69pVavWCner7rXCcvn2BS8AgfJOd_y5W=RgmA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB7-tNN-SJb2-XCVU3qYihvvFKH1in2kDWO_z0==xT2c4Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv3LyqVTv69pVavWCner7rXCcvn2BS8AgfJOd_y5W=RgmA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120801060608.GL12615@leitl.org>

On Sun, Jul 29, 2012 at 12:51:16PM -0400, John Clark wrote:
> On Sun, Jul 29, 2012  Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > The energy payback from power satellites is short, two months
> 
> 
> I think that's a pretty useless figure because the problem is not the high
> cost of rocket fuel. In fact even if the launch cost to geosynchronous
> orbit were zero I'm not at all sure power satellites would be economically
> viable.  I think liquid fluoride thorium reactors are a much better bet and
> we already have the technology or nearly so, we've had most of it since the

We don't have the technology. If you don't believe me, try calling
Areva, and order one. Alternative fuelcycle breeders don't work
in reality yet. That's just as well, because we will need fissibles
for deep space.

> 1960's, and that is pretty amazing considering the tiny amount of money
> spent developing the concept.  About half a century ago we made a blunder
> and turned to solid fuel uranium reactors and not to liquid fuel thorium
> reactors and we've been paying a huge price for that mistake ever since.

Germany is at 25.1% renewable electricity (6 months 2012). 
Photovoltaics grew 47% relative to last year, and is at 5.3%
of total energy (breaking through to >50% of peak on good
days).

Few technologies can do that kind of scaling. Nuclear is not one of them.


From eugen at leitl.org  Wed Aug  1 06:34:17 2012
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 08:34:17 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Welcome to the Future
In-Reply-To: <CAPoR7a5qWhuYnpD2ri4x0FghHaPE2nvkm902SYi1Cz_R3SuKJg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <201207312034.q6VKY14V026231@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <CAJX-7wVfAiVgfVydSHaTSZWQuBbx=VTGM-MfVahkNmKTFBHxZw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a5qWhuYnpD2ri4x0FghHaPE2nvkm902SYi1Cz_R3SuKJg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120801063417.GO12615@leitl.org>

On Wed, Aug 01, 2012 at 01:57:12AM +0200, Stefano Vaj wrote:
> On 1 August 2012 01:05, Max More <max at maxmore.com> wrote:
> 
> > Stop trying to predict the future and focus on making it happen!
> >
> 
> This should be carved in stone on every transhumanist doorstep.

Make that forehead. The only Singularity we're really good at
is being singularly ineffective.


From pharos at gmail.com  Wed Aug  1 08:26:14 2012
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 09:26:14 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Welcome to the Future
In-Reply-To: <CAJX-7wVfAiVgfVydSHaTSZWQuBbx=VTGM-MfVahkNmKTFBHxZw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <201207312034.q6VKY14V026231@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <CAJX-7wVfAiVgfVydSHaTSZWQuBbx=VTGM-MfVahkNmKTFBHxZw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armhtofXyO8mO1HzMX-Xk3wYc6+=Y5gvsbj8nUE3zDhbP+w@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Aug 1, 2012 at 12:05 AM, Max More wrote:
> Amazingly poor predictions, over a mere 25 year period. Amazing not because
> I expected many close hits (I didn't) but this list is extremely inaccurate.
>
> Stop trying to predict the future and focus on making it happen!
>
>

The future is already here ? it's just not very evenly distributed. -
William Gibson


It takes mass movements to shape the future.
Like the automobile and mass-market air transport has shaped our world
of the last century.

The home computer and the internet was the next huge change. Everybody got one.

Currently the smartphone is changing our world. People cannot live now
without one.

To predict (and make) the future you need mass movements. Things that
affect almost the whole population.

To see the future make a list of things that are increasing in
'popularity' and things that are reducing in 'popularity'.

Unemployment seems to be steadily increasing.
Life expectancy seems to be steadily increasing.
Birth rates seem to be steadily falling.
Drug consumption (prescribed and non-prescribed) seems to be increasing.

We are rushing into a future where everything is recorded. A future
where nothing will ever be forgotten. Privacy will be redefined. When
it is realized that everyone is a criminal, the idea of law-breaking
will have to change.


More suggestions?

BillK



From bbenzai at yahoo.com  Wed Aug  1 08:53:54 2012
From: bbenzai at yahoo.com (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 01:53:54 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Pistorius
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1265.1343773566.17650.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <1343811235.18463.YahooMailClassic@web114412.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

Dave Sill <sparge at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tue, Jul 31, 2012 at 11:16 AM, Stefano Vaj <stefano.vaj at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > On 31 July 2012 17:05, Dave Sill <sparge at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> I'm not sure what you're getting at. My statement above wasn't meant to
> >> stand up to legal scrutiny, but I think my intent was clear. By "natural"
> >> here I mean inborn.
> >>
> >
> > Hey, running shoes are not "inborn", yet we allow them, don't we?
> >
> 
> Yes, but (1) shoes probably don't confer an advantage, (2) there are rules
> governing shoes, and (3) shoes aren't a part of the human body. There need
> to be rules governing prostheses ensuring they don't provide an advantage.


I think many running shoe manufacturers would disagree with you on (1)!
And so would I, as shoes in general clearly do confer an advantage over bare feet.  This is just as true in running as it is in walking down the street.  If you doubt this, try stepping on just one small piece of gravel in bare feet, then try it again wearing running shoes.


> 
> > Moreover, in what sense the biochemical and structural make of an athlete,
> > which is deliberately modified to improve his or her perfomance, would be
> > inborn?
>
> In the sense that each cell in their body has their DNA and has been part
> of their body since before they were born and the "modifications" allowed
> are achieved through natural, biological processes, not a machine shop.


This is an impractical distinction.  First, at some point we'll be able to mimic the natural biological processes so that the difference between natural and artificial effectively disappears, and second, your definition would rule out advantages obtained via somatic mutations occurring after birth (natural ones as well as artificial ones), but how could you tell?  The only practical solution would be to obtain a full DNA sequence of a person prior to birth and compare it to a full sequence obtained just prior to competing in an event (of course when I say 'practical'...).

Then there is the question of epigenetic changes that happen during a person's lifetime.  should these be screened for too?  If so, how could you tell the difference between 'natural' and 'artificial' changes?

The whole thing just breaks down completely.  In effect, our advancing technology will pretty much destroy sport as we now know it.  This, in a sense, mirrors transhumanism in general, as technology will pretty much destroy 'humanity' as we know it.

We are entering a 'trans-sport' period, and will soon be in a 'post-sport' one.

Ben Zaiboc



From eugen at leitl.org  Wed Aug  1 09:18:45 2012
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 11:18:45 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Written for another list
In-Reply-To: <CADDVf2KRGeLLC4iTQzB2LTLOvNjHN9iHAReyK=R+R4k+d4pCfw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB7-tNN-SJb2-XCVU3qYihvvFKH1in2kDWO_z0==xT2c4Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB7zu4QwOrbawVO60avEepRiX3CE44K1R3CkK-dBhHUVSg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB6XaQ7=YZtXJCE2-yLRzP0UJXP=No+_d+6HdxAwQqjWLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADDVf2KRGeLLC4iTQzB2LTLOvNjHN9iHAReyK=R+R4k+d4pCfw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120801091845.GS12615@leitl.org>

On Tue, Jul 31, 2012 at 10:09:51PM -0400, J.R. Jones wrote:

> We need space elevators, plain n simple*.

You need radiant power propulsion in order to lift
the mass for the elevators.

And you pretty much want to build the elevator on the
Moon first, not Earth. 

One of the ways to provide power is to build terrestrial
PV arrays which double als realtime targetable microwave 
phased array for line of sight vehicles (whether low-altitude
low-velocity or high-altitude high-velocity). You'd be charged 
for the time slot.

The additional expense for the added aerials and timing
circuitry as well as simple coils or capacitors (which would
double for power inverters) are negligible.

Not sure about the target spot. It's obviously far more
diffuse than a battery of solid state lasers groundside,
so more suitable for large low-flying targets.


From eugen at leitl.org  Wed Aug  1 10:00:34 2012
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 12:00:34 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Welcome to the Future
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armhtofXyO8mO1HzMX-Xk3wYc6+=Y5gvsbj8nUE3zDhbP+w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <201207312034.q6VKY14V026231@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <CAJX-7wVfAiVgfVydSHaTSZWQuBbx=VTGM-MfVahkNmKTFBHxZw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armhtofXyO8mO1HzMX-Xk3wYc6+=Y5gvsbj8nUE3zDhbP+w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120801100034.GZ12615@leitl.org>

On Wed, Aug 01, 2012 at 09:26:14AM +0100, BillK wrote:

> Unemployment seems to be steadily increasing.

This is dynamite to the social order. It will blow up.

> Life expectancy seems to be steadily increasing.

Not at supercentenarian level.

> Birth rates seem to be steadily falling.

Not in all locations, not for all subpopulations.

> Drug consumption (prescribed and non-prescribed) seems to be increasing.
> 
> We are rushing into a future where everything is recorded. A future

I'll be putting a HD cam on my bike helmet shortly. Google glasses
without teh GOOG looking over your shoulders: yes, please. Root that bitch.

> where nothing will ever be forgotten. Privacy will be redefined. When

Nope. Not redefined, more difficult to enforce.

> it is realized that everyone is a criminal, the idea of law-breaking
> will have to change.

Why, selective enforcement is so very convenient. Try pissing off a LEO,
or worse: a government institution or a whole branch of it, and you'll 
see what I mean.


From kgh1kgh2 at gmail.com  Wed Aug  1 10:25:09 2012
From: kgh1kgh2 at gmail.com (Kevin G Haskell)
Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 06:25:09 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Re "Atten: For any extropy libertarians
Message-ID: <CAEUzo3LrZ5Uf4Ea9v3ANRUez=NPBcxnQ3-95VGNjsBdphrkFYw@mail.gmail.com>

On  Mon, 30 Jul 2012, Max More wrote:

>> I'm not sure I understand the "but" here.

Quite right, Max. It was a very poor choice of wording, and was not meant
to sound confrontational.

>> For the reasons Fred explained, I would object to coping and pasting
>>without explicit permission for individual pieces of writing.

>>--Max

Fair enough, and thank you.  I will be sure to ask anyone here for their
permission before
copying and pasting any comments.

Thanks.

Kevin

-- 
 * Tweet me on Twitter! - @*KevinGHaskell
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From kgh1kgh2 at gmail.com  Wed Aug  1 10:39:26 2012
From: kgh1kgh2 at gmail.com (Kevin G Haskell)
Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 06:39:26 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Atten: For any extropy technolibertarians
Message-ID: <CAEUzo3LrOJv3t1du9dD5AnH8iJCOWMwCgmP5ZbjmaE-GoiVRpQ@mail.gmail.com>

On July 30, 2012, Joshua Job wrote:

>>I don't post very often (hoping to get more active), but I think there is
a
place for just a teensy bit of sectarianism in the broader transhumanist
movement. For example, some might think that government regulations will
slow down progress unjustifiably, while others may view it as the best way
to combat existential risks from technologies like AGI and molecular
nanotechnology. The same goes for social programs--- you could think
they'll make things worse, or better.

Obviously your views on such things will effect how you go about promoting
transhumanist ideas, and what programs, organizations, and initiatives one
will support. Having a place to discuss such topics with others of like
mind is beneficial for both the movement as well as for the psychology of
the individuals involved. And since the ExI list isn't necessarily the best
place for such discussions, it makes sense to create a group especially for
libertarian transhumanists (and democratic transhumanists,
>>Singularitarians, etc.).

Well presented, Joshua, and I completely agree.  Thank you.

Best,
Kevin

-- 
 * Tweet me on Twitter! - @*KevinGHaskell
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From kgh1kgh2 at gmail.com  Wed Aug  1 10:35:10 2012
From: kgh1kgh2 at gmail.com (Kevin G Haskell)
Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 06:35:10 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Re Atten: For any extropy libertarians
Message-ID: <CAEUzo3Kd5je0OTHagJLYNcbMbAxQZsK19kvMpMT6031s+bxCVQ@mail.gmail.com>

Mon, 30 Jul 2012, Natasha wrote:

>>Probably because I am not a libertarian and he assumes we are
>>connected at the hip. Frankly, I really don't like being pigeonholed
>>one way or another.  I mean -- who cares if a person is a
>>technolibertarian or a technoprogressive or technononpartisian or
>>technotranspolitical?!  As long as we all are for longer, healthy life
>>and support the technologies that will most likely bring this about,
>>why exclude each other?

>>Natasha

No, I didn't think that. It was just a very bad choice of wording.

In many respects, I think we are all on the same team, it is true, such as
when it comes to living longer, healthier
lives, and for our support for those technologies that will make this
occur.  But there are very real reasons
why there are different groups regarding how we should approach that
developing future, and I see
concerns among technolibertarians regarding the protection of individual
choices that are often at
odds with technoprogressives and that are not shared with
technoprogressives, not to mention,
the specifics of the goals themselves.  These are no small matters.

Kevin

-- 
 * Tweet me on Twitter! - @*KevinGHaskell
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From kgh1kgh2 at gmail.com  Wed Aug  1 10:19:23 2012
From: kgh1kgh2 at gmail.com (Kevin G Haskell)
Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 06:19:23 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Re "Atten: For any extropy libertarians
Message-ID: <CAEUzo3L14AU1TUGWQgfLrVo99a2yG-bPSfXnT0MUxqaqi-eufg@mail.gmail.com>

On July 30, 2012, F.C. Moulton wrote:

>>I strongly suggest DO NOT DO IT unless you get very specific individual
>>permission.  Without permission there are several reasons to avoid it
>>but I will just list one big reason which should be sufficient.  The
>>reason not to do it without specific individual permission is that
>>people often frame answers assuming the context of prior discussions and
>>also prior meta-level discussions on the list.  There is no way to
>>maintain this context using a copy and paste for particular bits of a
>>thread. Loosing this direct context and meta-level context might change
>>how a specific comment is intended.

>>Well I will add one more which is that people join the list, leave, then
>>sometimes come back so just posting a general request for permission to
>>the list might or might not cover the people you want to quote.

Point taken, although there are often comments that do stand alone quite
well,
in context or not.

>><< What of those who believe any government is a danger to individual
>><< freedom and that libertarianism as such is only consistent with
anarchism?


>>Dan asks a very good question.  I am not interested in debating the
>>issue of anarchism versus limited government here since this is not the
>>proper forum.  I just want to emphasis that the question Dan raises is
>>very important for the project you are undertaking.

>>Fred

I did not see Dan's original post, but I do find your point about this not
being the
appropriate forum for discussion for how politics affect science incorrect,
as I've often
seen the subject broached, here.  Additionally, Extropianism itself was
once identified
as being linked and leaning as technolibertarian.  Though that may not be
the case these
day specifically as it regards libertarianism, political discussion does
come up here.  How
can it not when so many projects are partially or completely government
funded, and affect the
lives of individuals?

Thanks for your feedback.

Kevin

-- 
 * Tweet me on Twitter! - @*KevinGHaskell
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From kgh1kgh2 at gmail.com  Wed Aug  1 10:57:16 2012
From: kgh1kgh2 at gmail.com (Kevin G Haskell)
Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 06:57:16 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Atten: For any extropy technolibertarians
Message-ID: <CAEUzo3L5G_sDJ07ddeHONDck3fpZfwiz9HU2YJyGQDQd7r-P-Q@mail.gmail.com>

On July 30, 2012, PJ Manney wrote:

>>I'm with Natasha.  I'm not terribly one thing or another and have
always resisted labels, yet I'm on this list.  And I do not want my
comments taken out of context.

I look at the Extropy list like an endless dinner party of
interesting, intelligent people with ideas outside the mainstream that
I enjoy following.  It's why I'm here.  If it was a party at my house,
I would not stick a speaker outside to broadcast only bits and pieces
of the conversation inside, especially without permission.

However, if you build a successful Facebook group, the content
providers will come to you.  Just don't commit the cardinal faux pas
of Facebook and include them in your group without their permission
first.

>>PJ

When you have dinner parties, what is discussed in those parties do not
stay inside of the house after the party is over, but are taken out to be
discussed
with other people. That is the way ideas propagate.

Regarding the building of a successful FB pages, one cannot have a separate
group unless members are first actively sought out and invited, and
material from all over
the Internet, mostly meaning articles,  that is pertinent to the group is
brought to group's page and posted by
both the moderator and the members for discussion. Independent non-Internet
discovered
issues may be brought up separately, but we exist to discuss what is going
on the
world of both politics and technology from a libertarian perspective.  So,
the context providers to not just come on
their own accord as in "build it and they will come."

Your point about not including people in a group without their permission
'as members,"
however, is well taken. Some people do get upset when they are simply added
to a group, and may
complain if not asked, and I wish to avoid that.  As a consequence, while
our membership is approaching
500( and not everybody is a libertarian,)  the discussions tend to more
active by more members than
many groups with 1500-3500 people in them.

Kevin



-- 
 * Tweet me on Twitter! - @*KevinGHaskell
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From kgh1kgh2 at gmail.com  Wed Aug  1 11:01:47 2012
From: kgh1kgh2 at gmail.com (Kevin G Haskell)
Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 07:01:47 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Atten: For any extropy technolibertarians
Message-ID: <CAEUzo3JPR-OQQUZk-0rxCgxh4GiWbtp-aYruGNsqzL_b_jJUaA@mail.gmail.com>

On July 30, 2012, Natasha Vita-More wrote:

I>>nterestingly enough I was asked to be involved with a political group out
of Russia and Israel. I'm considering it. It is nonpartisan and on the
platform of radical life extension. There is another competing group and it
will be very interesting to see how this all plays out.



Nevertheless, I respect what Kevin is doing and I am confident I will be
involved as an "other".



>>N

Somebody actually added me to that group without asking first and boy was I
mad! (Just kidding. I'm interested for now, and if not, I can easily leave
the group.)  But didn't you and Hank Pellesier create a new USA version of
the Russian group?

Kevin

-- 
 * Tweet me on Twitter! - @*KevinGHaskell
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From kgh1kgh2 at gmail.com  Wed Aug  1 11:09:10 2012
From: kgh1kgh2 at gmail.com (Kevin G Haskell)
Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 07:09:10 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Re Re: Atten: For any extropy technolibertarians
Message-ID: <CAEUzo3Ksedw_=jcZG7nvsSM1zWyUQB9Sm6Qhnk8wc5TsLbM8wA@mail.gmail.com>

On July 31, 2012, Stefano Vaj wrote:



>>For the record, personally I do not care.

I do not write for a living, in spite of my narcissism I am not obsessed
with attribution, and given the couple of people who spend their life
monitoring anything I may write here or there in order to find juicy
morsels for their dossiers, I am used to weigh carefully my words, and be
ready to stand by them in any circumstance.

Accordingly, I welcome and encourage anybody who makes me the honour of
quoting or even "stealing" anything I may have said or published.

But I think that common courtesy requires respect for everybody's feelings
and choices in this respect.

--
>>Stefano Vaj

Thanks, Stefano, and I would certainly give credit to anyone I quote, in
here
or out of here.   Most material that get's posted comes directly from an
'offically'
produced article or blog, and the writer's name usually comes along with,
along with
the publication that produced it.  If anyone wrote anything here that I
found that might
be of interest, I would ask for permission first, then post it, with credit
given for the article.

Best,

Kevin


-- 
 * Tweet me on Twitter! - @*KevinGHaskell
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From bbenzai at yahoo.com  Wed Aug  1 11:49:40 2012
From: bbenzai at yahoo.com (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 04:49:40 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Welcome to the Future
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1267.1343818918.17650.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <1343821780.57834.YahooMailClassic@web114416.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:

> We are rushing into a future where everything is recorded. A
> future where nothing will ever be forgotten. Privacy will be
> redefined. When it is realized that everyone is a criminal, 
> the idea of law-breaking will have to change.


.. or the whole world will become a prison (with the worst criminals in charge, of course).


Ben Zaiboc



From sparge at gmail.com  Wed Aug  1 13:05:55 2012
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 09:05:55 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Pistorius
In-Reply-To: <1343811235.18463.YahooMailClassic@web114412.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.1265.1343773566.17650.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <1343811235.18463.YahooMailClassic@web114412.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2d2mMULPqVQ0xpdqLuG6+2xi-fRPRYL4LJ8xiLKsBHdRg@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Aug 1, 2012 at 4:53 AM, Ben Zaiboc <bbenzai at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Dave Sill <sparge at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Yes, but (1) shoes probably don't confer an advantage, (2) there are
> rules
> > governing shoes, and (3) shoes aren't a part of the human body. There
> need
> > to be rules governing prostheses ensuring they don't provide an
> advantage.
>
> I think many running shoe manufacturers would disagree with you on (1)!
>

Duh. Nonetheless, barefoot runners have set world records, won world
championships, and won Olympic gold medals.


> And so would I, as shoes in general clearly do confer an advantage over
> bare feet.  This is just as true in running as it is in walking down the
> street.  If you doubt this, try stepping on just one small piece of gravel
> in bare feet, then try it again wearing running shoes.
>

If you wear shoes all the time, your feet get soft and you have to wear
shoes. Yes, shoes have benefits, but I don't think it's been proven that
they make people run faster.

> In the sense that each cell in their body has their DNA and has been part
> > of their body since before they were born and the "modifications" allowed
> > are achieved through natural, biological processes, not a machine shop.
>
> This is an impractical distinction.  First, at some point we'll be able to
> mimic the natural biological processes so that the difference between
> natural and artificial effectively disappears,


But we're nowhere near that point yet.


> and second, your definition would rule out advantages obtained via somatic
> mutations occurring after birth (natural ones as well as artificial ones),
> but how could you tell?  The only practical solution would be to obtain a
> full DNA sequence of a person prior to birth and compare it to a full
> sequence obtained just prior to competing in an event (of course when I say
> 'practical'...).
>

I don't think a DNA test is required to prove that Pistorious' legs aren't
natural. My answer above wasn't intended to provide a mechanism for testing
athletes and, of course, it likely wouldn't be practical.

The whole thing just breaks down completely.  In effect, our advancing
> technology will pretty much destroy sport as we now know it.  This, in a
> sense, mirrors transhumanism in general, as technology will pretty much
> destroy 'humanity' as we know it.
>

Yeah, maybe someday. But not today.

We are entering a 'trans-sport' period, and will soon be in a 'post-sport'
> one.
>

I doubt it, but, if so, that's a shame.

-Dave
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From natasha at natasha.cc  Wed Aug  1 14:15:54 2012
From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More)
Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 09:15:54 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Atten: For any extropy technolibertarians
In-Reply-To: <CAEUzo3JPR-OQQUZk-0rxCgxh4GiWbtp-aYruGNsqzL_b_jJUaA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEUzo3JPR-OQQUZk-0rxCgxh4GiWbtp-aYruGNsqzL_b_jJUaA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000c01cd6ff0$29d547d0$7d7fd770$@cc>

I'm not sure who created the Russian Group.  Hank, I think, created the US
group. 

 

I did not invite anyone to it. 

 

I am reconsidering the groups because one of its thought leaders considers
baby boomers and other senior citizens to be an unnecessary, and even
damaging, marketing tool for a political outreach for life extension.

 

 

From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Kevin G Haskell
Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2012 6:02 AM
To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
Subject: Re: [ExI] Atten: For any extropy technolibertarians

 

On July 30, 2012, Natasha Vita-More wrote:

I>>nterestingly enough I was asked to be involved with a political group out
of Russia and Israel. I'm considering it. It is nonpartisan and on the
platform of radical life extension. There is another competing group and it
will be very interesting to see how this all plays out.



Nevertheless, I respect what Kevin is doing and I am confident I will be
involved as an "other".



>>N 

Somebody actually added me to that group without asking first and boy was I
mad! (Just kidding. I'm interested for now, and if not, I can easily leave
the group.)  But didn't you and Hank Pellesier create a new USA version of
the Russian group? 

Kevin


 

-- 
  Tweet me on Twitter! - @KevinGHaskell

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From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Wed Aug  1 14:46:01 2012
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 07:46:01 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Written for another list
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB6L=_NbJy-kpwe5ssCsUwfBBfQsFwuauNv7PmzdN_xEZA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB6L=_NbJy-kpwe5ssCsUwfBBfQsFwuauNv7PmzdN_xEZA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB7R+6b=pa5=K315QNGN1gYepBoPDr2JO_B5=5oYkswfkQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Aug 1, 2012 at 4:01 AM,  "J.R. Jones" <mrjones2020 at gmail.com> wrote:

> We need space elevators, plain n simple*.

Unfortunately, space elevators seem really unlikely.  Not impossible
but (short of nanotechnology) really, really hard.  Not only do we
have the cable problem, but we will have to clean out all the
satellites that can't maneuver around the cable.

That didn't keep me from proposing a constant diameter cable that used
pulleys to get the taper.  Did that years ago, the ESA talk about how
to do it is on Eugen Leitl's site.  Wrote the talk after working out a
model for chapter, UpLift Incorporated, in the same series as "The
Clinic Seed."  Here is the first page.

June 2025

On the hangar deck of the former aircraft carrier Enterprise, amid a
maze of electrical cables, water and sewer pipes, there were a hundred
lashed-down house trailers.  Mohawk-ironworker families from Ontario
and upstate New York occupied most of them.  Marc Leaf, his wife Minny
and their children lived in an outside trailer on the port side.
The Enterprise was anchored eleven miles south of Baker Island, in the
Western Pacific doldrums, just inside the only territorial waters of
the US that came within a few miles of the equator.  The location made
the UpLift suits happy though Marc could not imagine why.  Nobody was
going to attack the huge ship half way between Hawaii and Australia.
In Marc's opinion, the monotonous weather?no storms--was the reason.

The kids were in bed and Marc and Minny were at the rail holding hands
and looking out at the equatorial ocean in bright moonlight.  No
matter how bright, moonlight scenes are black and white.  Marc thought
back to a nearly silent hike he had made when a teenager in a light
snowstorm under a full moon.

It had been just below freezing that night.  Marc, his brother, his
father, his uncle, a cousin and his grandfather had walked several
miles up Willow Creek in the middle of the night.  The cloud cover was
thin; the full moon brilliantly illuminated the fresh snow, leaving
pockets of pitch black under trees and in the water.  The effect was
surreal, intensely beautiful.

Dressed in warm boots and a military surplus jacket Marc had had no
problem staying warm.  There was certainly no problem staying warm
here.  The only thing that kept it from being unbearably hot was a
constant breeze from the east.  The breeze blew through the hangar
deck and carried away the heat from trailers' purring air
conditioners.

In the background was the vibration of the 31-foot diameter driver
wheels turning at 900 rpm, the whip-cracking sound of the supersonic
space elevator cable, reminding Marc of a flag flapping in a strong
wind, and the occasional run down and run up of the variable speed
cable.  The elevator was mostly lifting parts now, but over its life,
more than ninety percent of the capacity of the elevator had raised
more cable and counterweight.  Four more doublings would take it from
its current capacity of 125 tons a day to its design capacity of 2,000
tons per day.

> From: Eugen Leitl <eugen at leitl.org>
>
> On Tue, Jul 31, 2012 at 10:09:51PM -0400, J.R. Jones wrote:
>
>> We need space elevators, plain n simple*.
>
> You need radiant power propulsion in order to lift
> the mass for the elevators.

If you use the constant diameter cable, you can lift almost all of the
elevator from the ground.

> And you pretty much want to build the elevator on the
> Moon first, not Earth.

As someone said 3 years ago at the elevator conference, you can build
a lunar elevator out through L1 out of dental floss.  (Spectra, 4.3
GPa and a density of slightly less than water.)

> One of the ways to provide power is to build terrestrial
> PV arrays which double als realtime targetable microwave
> phased array for line of sight vehicles (whether low-altitude
> low-velocity or high-altitude high-velocity). You'd be charged
> for the time slot.

> The additional expense for the added aerials and timing
> circuitry as well as simple coils or capacitors (which would
> double for power inverters) are negligible.
>
> Not sure about the target spot.

Dr Kevin Parkin has worked extensively on this.  I have done some
work.  The problem is the that it is hard to focus microwaves on a
small, far away target.  Same problem as getting power down from power
sats using microwaves, even at 110 GHz.

> It's obviously far more
> diffuse than a battery of solid state lasers groundside,
> so more suitable for large low-flying targets.

I don't think the phase stability over miles of transmitter is within
the state of the art, but it's a good idea.  Next time I see Dr Parkin
I will mention it.

Keith



From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Wed Aug  1 14:57:11 2012
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 07:57:11 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Welcome to the Future
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB5t5KoV7hO98kKi5-E_H0DPgVyL2d+-C8aR5Fz6K0ez5A@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Aug 1, 2012 at 4:01 AM,  Max More <max at maxmore.com> wrote:
>
> Stop trying to predict the future and focus on making it happen!

I try on such relatively simple topics as energy and carbon.  But
working out the technical and economic details is difficult, tedious
and seldom appreciated.  Few people here or any other place have the
skills to be useful in such work, much less the more complicated MM3
used for nanotechnology design.

Keith


From natasha at natasha.cc  Wed Aug  1 15:07:30 2012
From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More)
Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 10:07:30 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Extreme Future Festival: December 21, 2012
In-Reply-To: <000c01cd6ff0$29d547d0$7d7fd770$@cc>
References: <CAEUzo3JPR-OQQUZk-0rxCgxh4GiWbtp-aYruGNsqzL_b_jJUaA@mail.gmail.com>
 <000c01cd6ff0$29d547d0$7d7fd770$@cc>
Message-ID: <002201cd6ff7$5f9ca8c0$1ed5fa40$@cc>

Hi everyone!

 

Please help to support a transhumanist
cultural/philosophy/music/arts/fun-filled  project in LA.

 

http://www.rockethub.com/projects/9220-extreme-futurist-festival-2012

 

Thank you!

 

 

 <http://www.natasha.cc/> Natasha Vita-More
esDESiGN__1

Chairman,  <http://www.humanityplus.org/> Humanity+



Editor, The Transhumanist Reader: Classical and ContemporaryEssays on the
Science, 
Technology and Philosophy of the Human Future

 

"The things one feels absolutely certain about are never true.  Oscar Wilde
(But is this true then?)

 

From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Natasha
Vita-More
Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2012 9:16 AM
To: 'ExI chat list'
Subject: Re: [ExI] Atten: For any extropy technolibertarians

 

I'm not sure who created the Russian Group.  Hank, I think, created the US
group. 

 

I did not invite anyone to it. 

 

I am reconsidering the groups because one of its thought leaders considers
baby boomers and other senior citizens to be an unnecessary, and even
damaging, marketing tool for a political outreach for life extension.

 

 

From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Kevin G Haskell
Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2012 6:02 AM
To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
Subject: Re: [ExI] Atten: For any extropy technolibertarians

 

On July 30, 2012, Natasha Vita-More wrote:

I>>nterestingly enough I was asked to be involved with a political group out
of Russia and Israel. I'm considering it. It is nonpartisan and on the
platform of radical life extension. There is another competing group and it
will be very interesting to see how this all plays out.



Nevertheless, I respect what Kevin is doing and I am confident I will be
involved as an "other".



>>N 

Somebody actually added me to that group without asking first and boy was I
mad! (Just kidding. I'm interested for now, and if not, I can easily leave
the group.)  But didn't you and Hank Pellesier create a new USA version of
the Russian group? 

Kevin


 

-- 
  Tweet me on Twitter! - @KevinGHaskell

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From lubkin at unreasonable.com  Wed Aug  1 15:18:34 2012
From: lubkin at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin)
Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2012 11:18:34 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Welcome to the Future
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB5t5KoV7hO98kKi5-E_H0DPgVyL2d+-C8aR5Fz6K0ez5A@mail.g
 mail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB5t5KoV7hO98kKi5-E_H0DPgVyL2d+-C8aR5Fz6K0ez5A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <201208011518.q71FIi0Y014122@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

Max wrote:

>Stop trying to predict the future and focus on making it happen!

Keith replied:

>I try on such relatively simple topics as energy and carbon.  But
>working out the technical and economic details is difficult, tedious
>and seldom appreciated.  Few people here or any other place have the
>skills to be useful in such work, much less the more complicated MM3
>used for nanotechnology design.

While we do know folks who do work directly on extropian technologies,
and even some who've retooled their lives to acquire the skills to work
on the technologies that they deem most vital, I look at it as a matter of
comparative advantage.

I want Damien writing books, not designing propulsion. I'm a fair writer
myself, but I'm a better software designer than writer. And while I might
invent software that's directly significant to the future, I've long 
felt that the
most effective use of my skills is creating software that makes me
enough money to fund other people building the future.


-- David.



From nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Aug  1 16:17:03 2012
From: nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk (Tom Nowell)
Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 17:17:03 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [ExI] Templeton Foundation spends $5m on Immortality Research
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1343822402.19117.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.1.1343822402.19117.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <1343837823.8941.YahooMailNeo@web132106.mail.ird.yahoo.com>

Admittedly, it's not the sort that gets transhumanist pulses racing, but if Max or Anders feel like getting a paid trip to UC Riverside they will be happy to know that at least half the funds will go on grants to philosophers and theologians.

Press release reported at?http://www.newswise.com/articles/5-million-grant-awarded-to-uc-riverside-to-study-immortality

Home page for the "immortality project" at?http://www.sptimmortalityproject.com/

Tom



From kgh1kgh2 at gmail.com  Wed Aug  1 17:11:29 2012
From: kgh1kgh2 at gmail.com (Kevin G Haskell)
Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 13:11:29 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Atten: For any extropy libertarians
Message-ID: <CAEUzo3KWtHnoPW_6Bpy6ngp+PCBUReYYk2xkY=7Q8cTJzx=KMg@mail.gmail.com>

On July 28, 2012, Dan wrote:

>>I think there are, aside from me, several libertarians who participate
here, though the list is not really devoted to political philosophy. (Which
might be a good thing, since discussions of that tend to devolve into flame
wars and there's plenty of material to read online for those really
interested in the subject. Plus, there are other groups devoted to
political philosophy, including from a libertarian perspective.)

Regards,

>>Dan

Thanks, Dan.  Yes, that's why I put the message in this group.  I just
wanted to let them know we were there if any libertarians from this group
also wanted to have comments shared from here or to drop in some of their
own comments and/or links, there.

Kevin

-- 
 * Tweet me on Twitter! - @*KevinGHaskell
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From lubkin at unreasonable.com  Wed Aug  1 18:29:09 2012
From: lubkin at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin)
Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2012 14:29:09 -0400
Subject: [ExI] A case of fruitful longevity
Message-ID: <201208011829.q71ITK8I028131@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

I failed to notice that yesterday would have been Milton Friedman's
hundredth birthday. He nonetheless had a long, influential life, and many
people who remember him fondly. Including his son David and grandson
Patri, both of whom are mensches and on their way to leaving substantial
legacies of their own. Plus daughter Janet, about whom I know little.

Fold in sharing it all with a personal and professional partner, his wife
Rose, for 74 years, and it's hard to see what more one could ask for.


-- David.



From rtomek at ceti.pl  Wed Aug  1 18:39:23 2012
From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola)
Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 20:39:23 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] Pistorius
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2d2mMULPqVQ0xpdqLuG6+2xi-fRPRYL4LJ8xiLKsBHdRg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1265.1343773566.17650.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <1343811235.18463.YahooMailClassic@web114412.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
 <CAM5aL2d2mMULPqVQ0xpdqLuG6+2xi-fRPRYL4LJ8xiLKsBHdRg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1208012013400.19437@tau.ceti.pl>

On Wed, 1 Aug 2012, Dave Sill wrote:

> On Wed, Aug 1, 2012 at 4:53 AM, Ben Zaiboc <bbenzai at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> > Dave Sill <sparge at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Yes, but (1) shoes probably don't confer an advantage, (2) there are
> > rules
> > > governing shoes, and (3) shoes aren't a part of the human body. There
> > need
> > > to be rules governing prostheses ensuring they don't provide an
> > advantage.
> >
> > I think many running shoe manufacturers would disagree with you on (1)!
> >
> 
> Duh. Nonetheless, barefoot runners have set world records, won world
> championships, and won Olympic gold medals.

Agreed, there was a time when all runners were barefoot (and even wholly 
naked, like during ancient olympiads). There was a time when barefooters 
ran on par with booters. But recently? I don't remember anything like 
this, but I am not avid sport fan. Also, sprint has different demands to 
long run / marathon, and AFAIK there was no barefoot sprinter for a long 
time. But I may be very wrong on this, because I am not a fan.

[...]
> Yeah, maybe someday. But not today.
> 
> We are entering a 'trans-sport' period, and will soon be in a 'post-sport'
> > one.
> >
> 
> I doubt it, but, if so, that's a shame.
> 
> -Dave

I see main merit of sport as it was some time ago in need for long term 
devotion, a dedicated effort engaging both body and mind. I'm afraid we 
are more and more into "take a pill" land and this is a shame indeed. Not 
that shame could stop anybody who values money and social position, and it 
is more like shame is a sign of retardation because it does not help in 
making so called success - which is again a shame.

Long ago, there were libraries under the same roof with gymnasions, so 
that ancient sportsman could exercise both a body and spirit. But as time 
progresses, trivialisation increases. To achieve a success, spirit is no 
longer a required ingredient. I don't like it, but obviously majority does 
not need to be such sophisticated/cultured (and probably never wanted it 
anyway).

We can agree on many things, I think, but I'm afraid there is this 
transition taking place, slowly but inevitably (money talks). But I guess 
we will not see its advanced phase during our lifetime, or if we do, 
nobody would care about our incoherent mumbling.

Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.      **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home    **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...      **
**                                                                 **
** Tomasz Rola          mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com             **


From eugen at leitl.org  Wed Aug  1 21:29:41 2012
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 23:29:41 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Welcome to the Future
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB5t5KoV7hO98kKi5-E_H0DPgVyL2d+-C8aR5Fz6K0ez5A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB5t5KoV7hO98kKi5-E_H0DPgVyL2d+-C8aR5Fz6K0ez5A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120801212941.GC12615@leitl.org>

On Wed, Aug 01, 2012 at 07:57:11AM -0700, Keith Henson wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 1, 2012 at 4:01 AM,  Max More <max at maxmore.com> wrote:
> >
> > Stop trying to predict the future and focus on making it happen!
> 
> I try on such relatively simple topics as energy and carbon.  But
> working out the technical and economic details is difficult, tedious
> and seldom appreciated.  Few people here or any other place have the
> skills to be useful in such work, much less the more complicated MM3
> used for nanotechnology design.

Most people play in IT/CS sandboxes now. Physical layer engineering
is something what mostly happens elsewhere. This is a very serious 
problem. Luckily, elsewhere people are less isolated from reality.

http://www.theoildrum.com/node/9371


From moulton at moulton.com  Wed Aug  1 21:57:52 2012
From: moulton at moulton.com (F. C. Moulton)
Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2012 14:57:52 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Re "Atten: For any extropy libertarians
In-Reply-To: <CAEUzo3L14AU1TUGWQgfLrVo99a2yG-bPSfXnT0MUxqaqi-eufg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEUzo3L14AU1TUGWQgfLrVo99a2yG-bPSfXnT0MUxqaqi-eufg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5019A660.7020704@moulton.com>

On 08/01/2012 03:19 AM, Kevin G Haskell wrote:
> On July 30, 2012, F.C. Moulton wrote:
> 
>>>Dan asks a very good question.  I am not interested in debating the
>>>issue of anarchism versus limited government here since this is not the
>>>proper forum.  I just want to emphasis that the question Dan raises is
>>>very important for the project you are undertaking.
> 
>>>Fred
> 
> I did not see Dan's original post, but I do find your point about this
> not being the 
> appropriate forum for discussion for how politics affect science
> incorrect, as I've often
> seen the subject broached, here. 

No.

That is not the point I was making.  In my post I did not make a "point
about this not being the appropriate forum for discussion for how
politics affect science".

Dan raised a couple of points and I made a very specific reference to
one of the points Dan raised.  And it is obvious from my elaboration
exactly the point I was referencing.  Yet you say that you did not see
Dan's post but still start telling me you disagree with a statement that
I did not make. Perhaps it would be useful if you read what Dan wrote
and then read what I wrote and then it will be obvious that your
characterization of my comment was not accurate.

I do not attribute this malice and I am sure you did not mean me any
particular harm but it is really annoying and I feel I need to respond
lest anyone think your inaccurate statement really reflected my statement.

I am sorry I feel the need to state this is such forceful terms but if
you want to put yourself in the role of coordinating any sort of online
group then you really need to be careful when attributing positions to
other people.  And if you expect them to give you permission to do cut
and paste of their comments then you really need to demonstrate an
attention to detail and accuracy.  Just having enthusiasm is not enough.

Fred



From atymes at gmail.com  Thu Aug  2 00:46:39 2012
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 17:46:39 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Written for another list
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB6L=_NbJy-kpwe5ssCsUwfBBfQsFwuauNv7PmzdN_xEZA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB6L=_NbJy-kpwe5ssCsUwfBBfQsFwuauNv7PmzdN_xEZA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNS2T+W1-q_o+UWga14A2Vf0+NyqyyGzM43h546O6EQstQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jul 31, 2012 at 9:52 PM, Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> wrote:
> In the bootstrap plan I have outlined, the power from the first
> expensive (built with conventional rockets) power sat is used to power
> propulsion lasers.  That lets you build more power sats at a much
> lower cost than the first one.  The energy the first one generates is
> worth around 100 times as much bringing up parts for more power
> satellites as it would be to sell it to ground markets.

How do you calculate this 100 times?  What other sources of
energy could be used to bring up parts, that you are comparing
its value to?

> There has been a lot of looking at selling power from space to the
> military.  Never reached the big study phase because there are just
> too many problems.  The military wants power in MW or sub MW chunks.
> Microwave power sats at 2.45 GHz don't scale below 5 GW

So what happens if you put a 50 MW sat up?  Is it:

1) More expensive per MW?
2) More expensive overall - not per MW, but the total project cost -
than 5 GW?
3) Impossible?

If it's just #1 - so long as the total cost is lower, that's fine.

#2 or #3 would need serious justification.

> But if we were to build laser power sats for the military, they would
> probable use them as weapons rather than power.

Lasers like that are strategic weapons.  They hit areas, not
individual targets.

Most NATO militaries talk big about strategic weapons, but
in practice, they tend to make sure nobody uses them.
Collateral damage runs counter to just about every mission
they've been on for the past few decades, and this is unlikely
to change.  (Not that there hasn't been collateral damage,
just that they try to avoid wantonly inflicting it when they
have more precise options available.)

> For a given frequency at one of the atmospheric windows such as 2.45
> GHz, the minimum size to focus the microwave power beam is 1 km on the
> power sat and 10 km on the ground, or the other way around.  This is
> what leads to the huge size of these things, the microwave optics.
> This has been understood for over 200 years, look up Airy disk.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airy_disk

What about using shorter wavelengths, such as visible light?

>>>>> I am mainly interested in making a case that there *is* a way out of
>>>>> the energy/carbon problems without an 80% die off.
>>>>
>>>> The theoretical case has long been made.  The challenge now
>>>> is the litmus test: actually doing it.
>>>
>>> That's news to me.  Where?
>>
>> The theoretical case having been made?  Here, for one.
>> This very list.
>
> I don't remember such discussion.

And how long have you been on this list?

Ways to save the world without a massive dieoff are
discussed not infrequently.  Maybe not any specific
proposal or case, but the general discussion has
long since chased away any presumption that we
must necessarily fail and that humanity is doomed.

>>>>> The cost of power at current $10,000/kg is dominated by the lift cost
>>>>> of ~50,000/kW.  Cost of power at that transport rate is ~$2/kWh.
>>>>>
>>>>> For zero lift cost, the cost would be around 1.4 cents per kWh.  The
>>>>> derivation of this is in the paper.
>>>>
>>>> It sounds like you have bigger concerns than the lift cost, if
>>>> that is not a majority of the cost.
>>>
>>> It's around a third of the total cost.  I really don't understand your
>>> objection to the other costs.  Do you know of a less expensive way to
>>> make and transmit power to the Earth?
>>
>> Strawman.  My objections regarding the other costs have
>> to do with the other costs themselves, not the benefits.
>> To wit: what *are* the other costs, and how big of a factor
>> are they?
>
> You mean you don't understand the cost of generation equipment?

I meant that I didn't understand *that* the rest of the cost was
generation equipment.

>> A demonstration - pure demonstrator - satellite can be built
>> and launched for tens of thousands - not millions - of dollars.
>> It's called a CubeSat.
>
> You could pack a few mW of microwave transmitter into a CubSat.
>
> Why bother when there are communication satellites pouring down as
> much as ten kW of microwaves?

Because you don't have the money to put up a big enough
satellite to pour down 10 kW, but you might have enough for
a CubeSat.  And because there are concerns other than
just "can it be done in theory" that you must demonstrate.

The biggest one: can *YOU* do it?  Can you, personally, get
all the pieces together, make it fly, get some - any - amount
of power, and thus show that you have indeed solved all the
challenges?  (All the analysis in the world might miss some
physics objections; actually doing it will automatically do
it.)

A lot of people like us are incapable of understanding this
problem, but it is a huge one for investors.

No, no, seriously, this is a big problem.

This is the difference between theory and practice.  Once
you've shown that you can actually do it, even at
extraordinarily inefficient rates, then you become far more
able to get investment to do the full-size project, because
you have proven that you, personally, can get power sats
up and running if given the funding.

> You have the right idea, but the scaling laws won't let you do it that
> small.  There is a size, 5-10 tons depending on the technology, below
> which you can't get *any* payload to orbit.  It has to do with the
> amount of atmosphere you have to punch through, and the square/cube
> scaling of the vehicles.  I assure you that if I could start with 1 kW
> I would.

Uh huh.  I've told you about CubeCab, right?  I happen to
be looking at the minimum cost - and with it, rocket size
and mass, payload capacity, et cetera - to get something
into orbit.  A lot of people have said it is impossible to put
a single, 1U CubeSat into orbit by itself - that rockets just
don't scale that small.  I've been finding it is possible - you
have to accept horribly bad mass fractions, but you can
still greatly lower the minimum amount of rocket by doing
so.

If a single CubeSat can get a few mW down to the ground,
what kind of thrust could you get on a 1-mg launch vehicle?


From estropico at gmail.com  Thu Aug  2 07:34:28 2012
From: estropico at gmail.com (estropico)
Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2012 08:34:28 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Re Re: Atten: For any extropy technolibertarians
Message-ID: <CAMprzzdg4ZYsUxC_vdODPHHoutLaxGZEsPTofV16yRuGfF07Lw@mail.gmail.com>

> On July 31, 2012, Stefano Vaj wrote:
>
>...given the couple of people who spend their life
> monitoring anything I may write here or there in order to find juicy
> morsels for their dossiers, I am used to weigh carefully my words, and be
> ready to stand by them in any circumstance.

a) You flatter yourself...

b) If you weighted them carefully enough we wouldn't be having this
neverending diatribe....

Now please stop the petty sniping. I haven't mentioned you or your...
ahem... controversial writings and activities in ages, especially on
this list, and I'm sure no-one here wants another one of our flames
(as entertaining and informative as they might be).

Cheers,
Fabio


From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Thu Aug  2 11:51:16 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2012 13:51:16 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Pistorius
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2dgPvKXbXrTU3owoy4HjtZn0zqg=7HU1jAmJRW5L21CRg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <50134DBC.4060204@aleph.se>
 <CAM5aL2fhB2=f13q0zSK_ujK-=xjfeCjCwZGvFwY7zPp594eyuA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a7xjpzuTwnRbbp_-=ZN_awPgK6LNaLD_XMjtAUdvbyX=w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2fdxPa5VzkbcpT1LXW+ALVY3WoMu8ehpvJrwEkQgoZiJg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a7umsnZpr+A3vqTJ+TBszhNf67Ep4hPPSsCQy2Jc_07uQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2dUysYB+7H3XzCssyP_s3w0uHR0F=_Nz7wHb7FfJ+UECw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a7Qubg1Tq_ncZ9wURcioMajD8JfjA7o5Z5djx5qw7EBrA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2dgPvKXbXrTU3owoy4HjtZn0zqg=7HU1jAmJRW5L21CRg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a7SaqnjCQDKCtnL-fVJ3kPKrrje7VejcyDU54gNS0hR8Q@mail.gmail.com>

On 31 July 2012 20:20, Dave Sill <sparge at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tue, Jul 31, 2012 at 1:29 PM, Stefano Vaj <stefano.vaj at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> On 31 July 2012 18:54, Dave Sill <sparge at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Yes, but (1) shoes probably don't confer an advantage, (2) there are
>>> rules governing shoes, and (3) shoes aren't a part of the human body. There
>>> need to be rules governing prostheses ensuring they don't provide an
>>> advantage.
>>>
>>
>> 1) They do confer an advantage to those running without them
>>
>
> Huh?
>

"Over" those running without them.

2) We are not discussing here whether rules are possible (Indianapolis has
>> rules, but cars have no "inborn features"), but whether the concept of
>> "natural" is of any guidance on what they should "naturally" be
>>
>
> OK. I think it's a useful concept, you disagree.
>

I maintain that the concept itself is a cultural artifact and can be
reduced ad absurdum with appropriate examples and thought experiments in
every circumstance.

 3) Are prostheses? Where exactly the line is drawn?
>>
>
> Seriously? How about when a body part that contributes to the performance
> of a sport is replaced with a man-made replacement?
>

So, the line would be that you can add, but you cannot remove? What about
an athlete with a heart transplant? What about, more trivially, the
replacement of fat mass with lean mass?


> >Let us say that I grow enhanced legs on an athlete after the amputation
>> of the old pair, rather >than in a vat. Would such process be so much more
>> natural than adopting carbon fiber > prostheses?
>
> In the sense that each cell in their body has their DNA and has been part
>> of their body since before they were born and the "modifications" allowed
>> are achieved through natural, biological processes, not a machine shop.
>>
>
If I grew new, enhanced legs on an athlete this would be definitely a
bio.logical process, but how would that be "natural"? Tails grow back in
lizards, but legs do not grow on adult humans "naturally".

Rather than picking apart my statements and postulating thought experiments
>> whose point is unclear, how about actually taking a stand on the original
>> issue? I'll grant that making rules that ensure fair competition is hard
>> and getting harder, but I still think it's worth doing.
>>
>
I have nothing against the idea of having competitions with specialised
rules (say, in trot races horses are not allowed to gallop, irrespective of
which pace would come more "natural" to them).

My point is that they are going to be of the same arbitrary nature of those
applicable to Formula 1 racing cars, where investigating what is "natural"
for an engine or a vehicle would seem futile.

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Thu Aug  2 12:09:55 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2012 14:09:55 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Welcome to the Future
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armhtofXyO8mO1HzMX-Xk3wYc6+=Y5gvsbj8nUE3zDhbP+w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <201207312034.q6VKY14V026231@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <CAJX-7wVfAiVgfVydSHaTSZWQuBbx=VTGM-MfVahkNmKTFBHxZw@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAPoR7a65OVxQ-R-RvbiUL54tXRtMERPeaDCcbyr-RT-gLmiP2w@mail.gmail.com>

On 1 August 2012 10:26, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:

> It takes mass movements to shape the future.
> Like the automobile and mass-market air transport has shaped our world
> of the last century.
>

*Some* changes (eg, fashion) take place even in the Brave New World or in
the most stagnant period of European middle age.

The real issue is *which* changes at *which pace*.

I suspect for instance that one would not be too off-mark by saying that we
have shifted most of our personal and societal ambitions from changing the
world to replace it as much as possible with a purely virtual experience
thereof. Of course I am not tempted in the least by any neoLuddite or
moralistic attitude towards the latter technologies, only I deplore that
they are currently employed to replace rather than supplement and integrate
the former.

Moreover, it is nice to draw exponential (well, in fact, S-shaped) curves
profiting from and including the unprecedented acceleration in
technological developments and applications during the period 1870-1970,
but one would be hard-pressed to find similar improvements since which be
not directly based on the byproducts of Moore's Law.

And, as I mentioned a few times, we need not believe that some glass
ceiling of one kind or another has been attained. Hostile legal frameworks,
ideological biases, and dominant values - reflected, eg, by difference in
revenues of a banker vs an engineer or  researcher - are more than enough
to explain the predicament we find ourselves in.

So, yes, the mass movement we need is of a philosophical, cultural and
political nature. While technology may influence society, is (a certain
kind of) society that makes technology happen.

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Thu Aug  2 15:29:31 2012
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2012 08:29:31 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Written for another list
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB79iua4g0Y+0YbDagdkBi+FJJibmc5AxGwwyQ_-ML6r9w@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Aug 2, 2012 at 4:51 AM,  Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tue, Jul 31, 2012 at 9:52 PM, Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> wrote:
>> In the bootstrap plan I have outlined, the power from the first
>> expensive (built with conventional rockets) power sat is used to power
>> propulsion lasers.  That lets you build more power sats at a much
>> lower cost than the first one.  The energy the first one generates is
>> worth around 100 times as much bringing up parts for more power
>> satellites as it would be to sell it to ground markets.
>
> How do you calculate this 100 times?

The power can be used to raise 500,000 tons per year to GEO.  At
$100/kg this is worth $50 B per year.  3.5 GW sold for power at 2 cent
per kWh brings in $0.56 B/year

> What other sources of
> energy could be used to bring up parts, that you are comparing
> its value to?

It's not the source of energy but the location in GEO that makes it
useful.  In space, sunlight is really cheap energy, which is the point
of the whole project.

>> There has been a lot of looking at selling power from space to the
>> military.  Never reached the big study phase because there are just
>> too many problems.  The military wants power in MW or sub MW chunks.
>> Microwave power sats at 2.45 GHz don't scale below 5 GW
>
> So what happens if you put a 50 MW sat up?  Is it:
>
> 1) More expensive per MW?
> 2) More expensive overall - not per MW, but the total project cost -
> than 5 GW?
> 3) Impossible?
>
> If it's just #1 - so long as the total cost is lower, that's fine.
>
> #2 or #3 would need serious justification.

Between 2 and 3.  You need a minimum induced voltage on the rectenna
diodes for them to forward conduct.  50 MW is 1/100 of 5000 MW.  So
the ground antenna would need to be one km across and the antenna in
space 10 km in diameter and would cost 100 times as much as a
transmitter for a 5 GW unit.  Microwave optics is a bitch.

>> But if we were to build laser power sats for the military, they would
>> probable use them as weapons rather than power.
>
> Lasers like that are strategic weapons.  They hit areas, not
> individual targets.

Not at all.  To be useful for propulsion, they need to put about all
that power into 150 square meters at 20 MW/m^2.  That's a little over
12 meters across.  4 GW is exactly one ton of TNT per second by
definition.  Takes 26 meter optics at GEO to focus the beam that
tight.  Expensive.

> Most NATO militaries talk big about strategic weapons, but
> in practice, they tend to make sure nobody uses them.
> Collateral damage runs counter to just about every mission
> they've been on for the past few decades, and this is unlikely
> to change.  (Not that there hasn't been collateral damage,
> just that they try to avoid wantonly inflicting it when they
> have more precise options available.)
>
>> For a given frequency at one of the atmospheric windows such as 2.45
>> GHz, the minimum size to focus the microwave power beam is 1 km on the
>> power sat and 10 km on the ground, or the other way around.  This is
>> what leads to the huge size of these things, the microwave optics.
>> This has been understood for over 200 years, look up Airy disk.
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airy_disk
>
> What about using shorter wavelengths, such as visible light?

Then a cloud cuts off the power.  It's part of the reason we start the
laser propulsion above 10 km, to get over the clouds.

>>>>>> I am mainly interested in making a case that there *is* a way out of
>>>>>> the energy/carbon problems without an 80% die off.
>>>>>
>>>>> The theoretical case has long been made.  The challenge now
>>>>> is the litmus test: actually doing it.
>>>>
>>>> That's news to me.  Where?
>>>
>>> The theoretical case having been made?  Here, for one.
>>> This very list.
>>
>> I don't remember such discussion.
>
> And how long have you been on this list?

Off an on since 1989.

> Ways to save the world without a massive dieoff are
> discussed not infrequently.  Maybe not any specific
> proposal or case, but the general discussion has
> long since chased away any presumption that we
> must necessarily fail and that humanity is doomed.

Well, this is one specific proposal.  There is no certainty that I got
either the assumptions or the spreadsheet formulas right though.

>>>>>> The cost of power at current $10,000/kg is dominated by the lift cost
>>>>>> of ~50,000/kW.  Cost of power at that transport rate is ~$2/kWh.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For zero lift cost, the cost would be around 1.4 cents per kWh.  The
>>>>>> derivation of this is in the paper.
>>>>>
>>>>> It sounds like you have bigger concerns than the lift cost, if
>>>>> that is not a majority of the cost.
>>>>
>>>> It's around a third of the total cost.  I really don't understand your
>>>> objection to the other costs.  Do you know of a less expensive way to
>>>> make and transmit power to the Earth?
>>>
>>> Strawman.  My objections regarding the other costs have
>>> to do with the other costs themselves, not the benefits.
>>> To wit: what *are* the other costs, and how big of a factor
>>> are they?
>>
>> You mean you don't understand the cost of generation equipment?
>
> I meant that I didn't understand *that* the rest of the cost was
> generation equipment.

OK.  The rough cost breakdown is in the paper.

>>> A demonstration - pure demonstrator - satellite can be built
>>> and launched for tens of thousands - not millions - of dollars.
>>> It's called a CubeSat.
>>
>> You could pack a few mW of microwave transmitter into a CubSat.
>>
>> Why bother when there are communication satellites pouring down as
>> much as ten kW of microwaves?
>
> Because you don't have the money to put up a big enough
> satellite to pour down 10 kW, but you might have enough for
> a CubeSat.  And because there are concerns other than
> just "can it be done in theory" that you must demonstrate.

The communication satellites are already up there pouring down kWs of
power.  Why do I need to put up a mW cube sat when they are already
doing the same thing at orders of magnitude more power?

> The biggest one: can *YOU* do it?  Can you, personally, get
> all the pieces together, make it fly, get some - any - amount
> of power, and thus show that you have indeed solved all the
> challenges?  (All the analysis in the world might miss some
> physics objections; actually doing it will automatically do
> it.)

The hard part is not the power satellite design or getting the power
down.  That's been understood for decades, Boeing had a $10 M plus
contract to do so back in the late 70s plus they spent a *lot* of
their own money on it and still have enough interest to send people to
conferences.

The hard part is getting the cost of lifting hundreds of thousands of
tons of parts to GEO down to where power sats make economic sense.
Laser propulsion is the way to go.  That's only recently become
possible with large versions of the tiny laser diodes in CD player.

> A lot of people like us are incapable of understanding this
> problem, but it is a huge one for investors.
>
> No, no, seriously, this is a big problem.
>
> This is the difference between theory and practice.  Once
> you've shown that you can actually do it, even at
> extraordinarily inefficient rates, then you become far more
> able to get investment to do the full-size project, because
> you have proven that you, personally, can get power sats
> up and running if given the funding.

No sane investor is going to put me in charge of spending the national
budget of a fair sized country for ten years.  And putting up a
CubeSat would not affect that fact one iota.  This is about a
*concept* for how to get the cost to GEO down.  I don't even have an
IP interest in it because (for various reasons) I have been doing this
work open source.  The idea, meme if you want, stands or falls without
me.

>> You have the right idea, but the scaling laws won't let you do it that
>> small.  There is a size, 5-10 tons depending on the technology, below
>> which you can't get *any* payload to orbit.  It has to do with the
>> amount of atmosphere you have to punch through, and the square/cube
>> scaling of the vehicles.  I assure you that if I could start with 1 kW
>> I would.
>
> Uh huh.  I've told you about CubeCab, right?  I happen to
> be looking at the minimum cost - and with it, rocket size
> and mass, payload capacity, et cetera - to get something
> into orbit.  A lot of people have said it is impossible to put
> a single, 1U CubeSat into orbit by itself - that rockets just
> don't scale that small.  I've been finding it is possible - you
> have to accept horribly bad mass fractions, but you can
> still greatly lower the minimum amount of rocket by doing
> so.
>
> If a single CubeSat can get a few mW down to the ground,
> what kind of thrust could you get on a 1-mg launch vehicle?

It's easy enough to calculate.

One mw is one mJ/s.  100% applied to one mg it would generate
acceleration at one meter/sec, which is about 10% of what you need
just to overcome gravity.

But a CubeSat would be hard pressed to put out a mW.  And that mW
could not be focused by something that small so the energy would go
more or less uniformly over the entire space.

Keith


From johnkclark at gmail.com  Thu Aug  2 15:25:36 2012
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2012 11:25:36 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Written for another list
In-Reply-To: <20120801060608.GL12615@leitl.org>
References: <CAPiwVB7-tNN-SJb2-XCVU3qYihvvFKH1in2kDWO_z0==xT2c4Q@mail.gmail.com>
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On Wed, Aug 1, 2012 at 2:06 AM, Eugen Leitl <eugen at leitl.org> wrote:

> I think liquid fluoride thorium reactors are a much better bet and we
>> already have the technology or nearly so, we've had most of it since the
>>
>
> > We don't have the technology.


That is just untrue, we've had the technology for some time. Granted it was
a small experimental reactor of only 7.4 megawatts but the Molten Salt
Reactor Experiment (MSRE) at Oak Ridge operated successfully from 1965 to
1969. There were 2 reasons this approach was not pursued and why it was a
miracle they even managed to scrape together enough money to build it in
the first place:

1) Unlike all Uranium reactors Thorium reactors do not produce Plutonium
which can be used to make bombs; at the time this was perceived as a major
disadvantage, that is seen by many as less of a disadvantage today.

2) For 30 years Admiral Rickover was the Tsar  of reactor development in
the USA, when he found that a Uranium Pressurized Water Reactor would work
pretty well in a submarine he called a halt to all other types of reactor
development because he thought it would be a distraction to the task at
hand, making a fleet on nuclear submarines. He didn't even want research on
other types of Uranium reactors much less Thorium. So if you wanted to make
a reactor to power a city you had to scale up a small submarine reactor to
gargantuan dimensions, and in the last few decades we've discovered to our
sorrow it just does not scale up well. Because of Rickover nuclear reactor
technology has been like a fly caught in amber and remained nearly
unchanged for half a century.

> If you don't believe me, try calling Areva, and order one.


Try ordering a new nuclear reactor from anyone to be placed anywhere in the
USA of ANY design, it's virtually impossible for reasons that have nothing
to do with science or technology.

> Germany is at 25.1% renewable electricity


That figure sounds nice, but over 30% of the renewable electricity comes
from bio-mass which is just turning food into fuel, a pretty bad idea. And
environmentalists complain about the rest, they hate dams and yet about 20%
of that renewable energy comes from hydro power. About 40% comes from wind
power but the cost is so high it would never be economical without big
government tax subsidies, and environmentalists say it disrupts global wind
patterns, is noisy, and kills cute little birds. And 6% comes from solar
but that form of energy is so dilute you need vast (and no doubt
environmentally sensitive) amounts of land, and it too is not economical
without big government subsidies. Environmentalists say there are just too
many people on this small planet so the best thing would be if we just
froze in the dark.

By the way, technically energy from Thorium is not renewable but its
potential is so huge it might as well be.

> Few technologies can do that kind of scaling. Nuclear is not one of them.
>

You could be right but If so the reasons are cultural and not economic,
scientific, or technological.

  John K Clark
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From sparge at gmail.com  Thu Aug  2 16:43:06 2012
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2012 12:43:06 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Welcome to the Future
In-Reply-To: <1343821780.57834.YahooMailClassic@web114416.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.1267.1343818918.17650.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
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Message-ID: <CAM5aL2eXmH7J4i=8L+uR__mxJmM5up+BP1kTVurOqgWyQnG8bg@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Aug 1, 2012 at 7:49 AM, Ben Zaiboc <bbenzai at yahoo.com> wrote:

> .. or the whole world will become a prison (with the worst criminals in
> charge, of course).


I'm not sure that isn't the case today.

-Dave
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From sparge at gmail.com  Thu Aug  2 17:31:59 2012
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2012 13:31:59 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Pistorius
In-Reply-To: <CAPoR7a7SaqnjCQDKCtnL-fVJ3kPKrrje7VejcyDU54gNS0hR8Q@mail.gmail.com>
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On Thu, Aug 2, 2012 at 7:51 AM, Stefano Vaj <stefano.vaj at gmail.com> wrote:

> On 31 July 2012 20:20, Dave Sill <sparge at gmail.com> wrote:
>

>> OK. I think ["natural" is] a useful concept, you disagree.
>>
>
> I maintain that the concept itself is a cultural artifact and can be
> reduced ad absurdum with appropriate examples and thought experiments in
> every circumstance.
>

Eventually, perhaps, but we're not there yet. While it's still useful it
makes sense to use it.

Seriously? How about when a body part that contributes to the performance
>> of a sport is replaced with a man-made replacement?
>>
>
> So, the line would be that you can add, but you cannot remove?
>

No, the line would be that a man-made replacement for a body part is a
prosthetic. I don't know what the rules should be for prosthetics, but
fairness   requires that they not confer an advantage. The rule could be
that runners with prosthetic legs can't compete against runners without
prosthetic legs.


> What about an athlete with a heart transplant?
>

Not a prosthesis, a natural replacement. I don't see a problem with that.


>  What about, more trivially, the replacement of fat mass with lean mass?
>

I don't know...depends upon the mechanism and the source of the lean mass.
I don't have a problem with surgical removal of fat mass.

If I grew new, enhanced legs on an athlete this would be definitely a
> bio.logical process, but how would that be "natural"?
>

I guess it would depend upon *how* you enhanced and grew these legs, but if
they're genetically human they'd be natural in that the biochemical
processes that created and run them are the same as those that occur in
natural human legs.


> I have nothing against the idea of having competitions with specialised
> rules (say, in trot races horses are not allowed to gallop, irrespective of
> which pace would come more "natural" to them).
>
> My point is that they are going to be of the same arbitrary nature of
> those applicable to Formula 1 racing cars, where investigating what is
> "natural" for an engine or a vehicle would seem futile.


 ``"Natural" for an engine'' makes no sense. Cars are completely man-made,
so the rules governing them will have to be somewhat arbitrary.

I have nothing against performance enhancement due to equipment technology,
doping, man-made body parts, etc. I just think that in order for
competition to be fair, dopers have to compete against dopers, biomechs
have to compete against biomechs, etc.

-Dave
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From max at maxmore.com  Thu Aug  2 18:41:20 2012
From: max at maxmore.com (Max More)
Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2012 11:41:20 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Written for another list
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv3pqR_bCcv=vL7ntX7AuMTdv8xq7f7C3z6W3CAzhJquZw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB7-tNN-SJb2-XCVU3qYihvvFKH1in2kDWO_z0==xT2c4Q@mail.gmail.com>
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On Thu, Aug 2, 2012 at 8:25 AM, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

> [snip]
>
> By the way, technically energy from Thorium is not renewable but its
> potential is so huge it might as well be.
>


Technically, solar power is not renewable either. It's all a matter of time
frame. Solar will last a few billion years, Thorium... not so long, but
still long. "Renewable" is a slippery term that isn't terribly helpful.
Better to focus on "how much left, based on what technological assumptions,
at what cost?" etc.

--Max


-- 
Max More, PhD
Strategic Philosopher
Co-editor, *The Transhumanist Reader*
President & CEO, Alcor Life Extension Foundation
7895 E. Acoma Dr # 110
Scottsdale, AZ 85260
480/905-1906 ext 113
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From eugen at leitl.org  Thu Aug  2 19:41:29 2012
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2012 21:41:29 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Written for another list
In-Reply-To: <CAJX-7wXAwQELM44Y8n-1O2m2r+=HsYXbgxd=+PYLZhEL2ux1hg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB7-tNN-SJb2-XCVU3qYihvvFKH1in2kDWO_z0==xT2c4Q@mail.gmail.com>
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On Thu, Aug 02, 2012 at 11:41:20AM -0700, Max More wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 2, 2012 at 8:25 AM, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > [snip]
> >
> > By the way, technically energy from Thorium is not renewable but its
> > potential is so huge it might as well be.
> >
> 
> 
> Technically, solar power is not renewable either. It's all a matter of time
> frame. Solar will last a few billion years, Thorium... not so long, but

Again, I encourage y'all to look fast/slow breeders alternative fuelcycles.
Most of what John has said was the usual thorium polyanna talk. Do read the
technical papers and look at the history what happened. You'll find that
it's not that what happened, and not for the reasons claimed.

Our future will be decided within 30-40 years. This sounds melodramatic,
but the large scale dynamics are really qualitatively different this time.
We now have run out of options, and must resort to emergency management.
Even so, the need to switch to emergency management is not yet obvious to 
many. I suggest to stock up on popcorn.

> still long. "Renewable" is a slippery term that isn't terribly helpful.
> Better to focus on "how much left, based on what technological assumptions,
> at what cost?" etc.


From msd001 at gmail.com  Thu Aug  2 21:36:30 2012
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2012 17:36:30 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Written for another list
In-Reply-To: <20120802194129.GX12615@leitl.org>
References: <CAPiwVB7-tNN-SJb2-XCVU3qYihvvFKH1in2kDWO_z0==xT2c4Q@mail.gmail.com>
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On Thu, Aug 2, 2012 at 3:41 PM, Eugen Leitl <eugen at leitl.org> wrote:
> Our future will be decided within 30-40 years. This sounds melodramatic,
> but the large scale dynamics are really qualitatively different this time.
> We now have run out of options, and must resort to emergency management.
> Even so, the need to switch to emergency management is not yet obvious to
> many. I suggest to stock up on popcorn.

yeah, pop it now while there's still energy left to do so.  Also
invest in some airtight containers for it, stale popcorn is gross.


From kellycoinguy at gmail.com  Thu Aug  2 22:49:42 2012
From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2012 16:49:42 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Kickstarter (was Re:  RES: Written for another list)
Message-ID: <CAPy8RwbcbXS=AY27j2LMYRsqre+17gUhKoHKPHAd7qbasezrCQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jul 30, 2012 at 8:24 AM, Eugen Leitl <eugen at leitl.org> wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 30, 2012 at 10:51:48AM -0300, Henrique Moraes Machado wrote:
>
>> Have you tried kickstarter? Kidding (or am I?). I'd really love to see that
>> happen in my life time.
>
> Kickstarter hasn't yet broken into high GUSD to TUSD fundraising regime yet.

It doesn't matter.

In fund raising circles, there is an early round called "Friends and
Family" or "Doctors and Dentists"... and Kickstarter is more than
sufficient for raising capital for that first round, so long as there
is advertised that further rounds will be necessary and raised once
the concept is proven using this first round money.

Kickstarter would almost certainly get you enough money to determine
if there is an error in the math. And if there isn't, and you can
prove it with current technology, you won't be able to beat off the
venture capitalists that will be beating down your door.

The key for that first round (in addition to proving the concept in
more concrete terms) is to fill out an executive suite with key
players that have previous experience (and success) with making money
for venture capitalists. The due diligence of a venture capitalist is
nothing compared to the due diligence that these guys will do on you
from inside your company... If those smart first business people
believe in your story after a few months of kicking it around, then
the venture people will believe it too.

Don't be an idealist, hire people with a history of successfully
dealing with venture before. Preferably in the energy arena. Look for
a venture fund that is focused on energy, preferably green energy (if
such a fund exists), then look for the big successes in their
collection of companies, and send a professional head hunter after the
executives in those companies. Be very aggressive in hiring those
people, and if you succeed in hiring someone that the venture people
have made money off of before, then you're in!

Don't try to be the president of this company yourself. You just be
the technology guy. Stay humble, the VCs like that.

-Kelly


From eric at m056832107.syzygy.com  Thu Aug  2 23:36:37 2012
From: eric at m056832107.syzygy.com (Eric Messick)
Date: 2 Aug 2012 23:36:37 -0000
Subject: [ExI] Written for another list
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB79iua4g0Y+0YbDagdkBi+FJJibmc5AxGwwyQ_-ML6r9w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB79iua4g0Y+0YbDagdkBi+FJJibmc5AxGwwyQ_-ML6r9w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120802233637.29414.qmail@syzygy.com>

Keith writes:
>The hard part is getting the cost of lifting hundreds of thousands of
>tons of parts to GEO down to where power sats make economic sense.
>Laser propulsion is the way to go.  That's only recently become
>possible with large versions of the tiny laser diodes in CD player.

So, you need a demo of laser propulsion.

Here's a target for a demo: Miniaturized version of the laser stage
hovering over a set of lasers for long enough for everyone to go
"Ooooohhh..."

Scale it for as big as you can manage with whatever money you can
kickstart.

I think if the right people are standing next to such a demo, along
with the powerpoint detailing the ramifications, money will become
available.

-eric


From eugen at leitl.org  Fri Aug  3 06:57:08 2012
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2012 08:57:08 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Kickstarter (was Re:  RES: Written for another list)
In-Reply-To: <CAPy8RwbcbXS=AY27j2LMYRsqre+17gUhKoHKPHAd7qbasezrCQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPy8RwbcbXS=AY27j2LMYRsqre+17gUhKoHKPHAd7qbasezrCQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120803065708.GA12615@leitl.org>

On Thu, Aug 02, 2012 at 04:49:42PM -0600, Kelly Anderson wrote:

> Kickstarter would almost certainly get you enough money to determine
> if there is an error in the math. And if there isn't, and you can
> prove it with current technology, you won't be able to beat off the
> venture capitalists that will be beating down your door.

Are we even living in the same universe? Your prototype would
take two-digit MW radiant output, and an array of optics
to track. If you're really frugal, a few 100 MUSD
should do. And then you'll get a toy that makes it
maybe 10 km high.

And of course the next step would involve a maglev
track, and 1-2 orders of magnitude more power. 
Notice that you're competing with all the launch systems
in the world, which have started getting mightily
cheap lately. 
 
> The key for that first round (in addition to proving the concept in
> more concrete terms) is to fill out an executive suite with key
> players that have previous experience (and success) with making money
> for venture capitalists. The due diligence of a venture capitalist is

Have you noticed that SpaceX is not run by VCs?

> nothing compared to the due diligence that these guys will do on you
> from inside your company... If those smart first business people
> believe in your story after a few months of kicking it around, then
> the venture people will believe it too.
> 
> Don't be an idealist, hire people with a history of successfully
> dealing with venture before. Preferably in the energy arena. Look for
> a venture fund that is focused on energy, preferably green energy (if
> such a fund exists), then look for the big successes in their
> collection of companies, and send a professional head hunter after the
> executives in those companies. Be very aggressive in hiring those
> people, and if you succeed in hiring someone that the venture people
> have made money off of before, then you're in!

In aerospace, worst advice ever.
 
> Don't try to be the president of this company yourself. You just be
> the technology guy. Stay humble, the VCs like that.

Sorry, but you're out to lunch. Way powerful stuff you've been smoking.


From eugen at leitl.org  Fri Aug  3 07:04:55 2012
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2012 09:04:55 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Written for another list
In-Reply-To: <20120802233637.29414.qmail@syzygy.com>
References: <CAPiwVB79iua4g0Y+0YbDagdkBi+FJJibmc5AxGwwyQ_-ML6r9w@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120802233637.29414.qmail@syzygy.com>
Message-ID: <20120803070454.GC12615@leitl.org>

On Thu, Aug 02, 2012 at 11:36:37PM -0000, Eric Messick wrote:
> Keith writes:
> >The hard part is getting the cost of lifting hundreds of thousands of
> >tons of parts to GEO down to where power sats make economic sense.
> >Laser propulsion is the way to go.  That's only recently become
> >possible with large versions of the tiny laser diodes in CD player.
> 
> So, you need a demo of laser propulsion.
> 
> Here's a target for a demo: Miniaturized version of the laser stage
> hovering over a set of lasers for long enough for everyone to go
> "Ooooohhh..."

You mean like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightcraft
 
> Scale it for as big as you can manage with whatever money you can
> kickstart.

Above is what you get for that. Now what?
 
> I think if the right people are standing next to such a demo, along
> with the powerpoint detailing the ramifications, money will become
> available.

I suggest invest your money into nyan-cat propulsion. 


From mrjones2020 at gmail.com  Fri Aug  3 11:42:20 2012
From: mrjones2020 at gmail.com (J.R. Jones)
Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2012 07:42:20 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Written for another list
In-Reply-To: <20120803070454.GC12615@leitl.org>
References: <CAPiwVB79iua4g0Y+0YbDagdkBi+FJJibmc5AxGwwyQ_-ML6r9w@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120802233637.29414.qmail@syzygy.com>
 <20120803070454.GC12615@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <CADDVf2+j6DP_0tT2PykAhqLAppwyOy1454mEUc3aAeNmX9RSWQ@mail.gmail.com>

>
> I suggest invest your money into nyan-cat propulsion.
>

Peta would be all over that!
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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Fri Aug  3 12:26:14 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2012 14:26:14 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Pistorius
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2emw7tY59Th12bqZj1htO5jppOxsidr6dia9e_WGnVzWw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <50134DBC.4060204@aleph.se>
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Message-ID: <CAPoR7a57orJeobbM2GNkif7898X4pM4u7Ju_Ryo_WtV3GTZWdg@mail.gmail.com>

On 2 August 2012 19:31, Dave Sill <sparge at gmail.com> wrote:

> No, the line would be that a man-made replacement for a body part is a
> prosthetic. I don't know what the rules should be for prosthetics, but
> fairness   requires that they not confer an advantage. The rule could be
> that runners with prosthetic legs can't compete against runners without
> prosthetic legs.
>

Biological enhanced legs grown on site would man-made, but as already
discussed the shoes supplementing-replacing-improving the
friction/protection function of foot soles and toes on the ground are so
much more so...

Why don't we demand athletes to run 100mt barefoot?

 What about an athlete with a heart transplant?
>>
> Not a prosthesis, a natural replacement. I don't see a problem with that.
>

Besides the fact that it might be artificial, that even a biological one is
hardly a "natural" replacement, and that it might well be better than the
original heart, so conferring an advantage, why a hear could be
transplanted but not a pair of legs? What the rationale could be of such a
rule?

I guess it would depend upon *how* you enhanced and grew these legs, but if
> they're genetically human they'd be natural in that the biochemical
> processes that created and run them are the same as those that occur in
> natural human legs.
>

Not necessarily "exactly" the same. Moreover, I could grow "ideal" legs
that would not exist in any "natural" human being...


>  ``"Natural" for an engine'' makes no sense. Cars are completely man-made,
> so the rules governing them will have to be somewhat arbitrary.
>

Hey, my point is that we are already *man-made" ourselves. If anything,
because of selective breeding depending on culturally-governed social
environments. Should black athletes be prevented from run competition
because the lifestyle of their recent past "unnaturally selected
performance in this area rather than in other ones? But of course, if we
are speaking of Olympic athletes, their phenotypes has also been modified
from the first youth with all means known to science...

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From cetico.iconoclasta at gmail.com  Fri Aug  3 13:28:29 2012
From: cetico.iconoclasta at gmail.com (Henrique Moraes Machado)
Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2012 10:28:29 -0300
Subject: [ExI] RES:  Written for another list
In-Reply-To: <20120802194129.GX12615@leitl.org>
References: <CAPiwVB7-tNN-SJb2-XCVU3qYihvvFKH1in2kDWO_z0==xT2c4Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv3LyqVTv69pVavWCner7rXCcvn2BS8AgfJOd_y5W=RgmA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120801060608.GL12615@leitl.org>
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 <20120802194129.GX12615@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <007b01cd717b$e0a24760$a1e6d620$@gmail.com>

EL> Even so, the need to switch to emergency management is not yet obvious
to many. I suggest to stock up on popcorn.

But will we have the energy to pop the popcorn?



From eugen at leitl.org  Fri Aug  3 14:08:55 2012
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2012 16:08:55 +0200
Subject: [ExI] RES:  Written for another list
In-Reply-To: <007b01cd717b$e0a24760$a1e6d620$@gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB7-tNN-SJb2-XCVU3qYihvvFKH1in2kDWO_z0==xT2c4Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv3LyqVTv69pVavWCner7rXCcvn2BS8AgfJOd_y5W=RgmA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120801060608.GL12615@leitl.org>
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 <20120802194129.GX12615@leitl.org>
 <007b01cd717b$e0a24760$a1e6d620$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120803140855.GU12615@leitl.org>

On Fri, Aug 03, 2012 at 10:28:29AM -0300, Henrique Moraes Machado wrote:
> EL> Even so, the need to switch to emergency management is not yet obvious
> to many. I suggest to stock up on popcorn.
> 
> But will we have the energy to pop the popcorn?

You will have the energy to watch people dying on prime time TV.


From sparge at gmail.com  Fri Aug  3 14:37:24 2012
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2012 10:37:24 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Pistorius
In-Reply-To: <CAPoR7a57orJeobbM2GNkif7898X4pM4u7Ju_Ryo_WtV3GTZWdg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <50134DBC.4060204@aleph.se>
 <CAM5aL2fhB2=f13q0zSK_ujK-=xjfeCjCwZGvFwY7zPp594eyuA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a7xjpzuTwnRbbp_-=ZN_awPgK6LNaLD_XMjtAUdvbyX=w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2fdxPa5VzkbcpT1LXW+ALVY3WoMu8ehpvJrwEkQgoZiJg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a7umsnZpr+A3vqTJ+TBszhNf67Ep4hPPSsCQy2Jc_07uQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2dUysYB+7H3XzCssyP_s3w0uHR0F=_Nz7wHb7FfJ+UECw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a7Qubg1Tq_ncZ9wURcioMajD8JfjA7o5Z5djx5qw7EBrA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2dgPvKXbXrTU3owoy4HjtZn0zqg=7HU1jAmJRW5L21CRg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a7SaqnjCQDKCtnL-fVJ3kPKrrje7VejcyDU54gNS0hR8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2emw7tY59Th12bqZj1htO5jppOxsidr6dia9e_WGnVzWw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a57orJeobbM2GNkif7898X4pM4u7Ju_Ryo_WtV3GTZWdg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2fuBLXWPH9u-iQMG-mVX1KHoqnCPhEaoFxzwG2ZJeFUXw@mail.gmail.com>

I'm done. I'd just like to repeat something I said in my last message to
which you didn't respond:

I have nothing against performance enhancement due to equipment technology,
doping, man-made body parts, etc. I just think that in order for
competition to be fair, dopers have to compete against dopers, biomechs
have to compete against biomechs, etc.

-Dave
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From cetico.iconoclasta at gmail.com  Fri Aug  3 14:47:28 2012
From: cetico.iconoclasta at gmail.com (Henrique Moraes Machado)
Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2012 11:47:28 -0300
Subject: [ExI] RES:  Pistorius
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2fuBLXWPH9u-iQMG-mVX1KHoqnCPhEaoFxzwG2ZJeFUXw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <50134DBC.4060204@aleph.se>
 <CAM5aL2fhB2=f13q0zSK_ujK-=xjfeCjCwZGvFwY7zPp594eyuA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a7xjpzuTwnRbbp_-=ZN_awPgK6LNaLD_XMjtAUdvbyX=w@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <008b01cd7186$e90ea5a0$bb2bf0e0$@gmail.com>


<Dave Sill>
I have nothing against performance enhancement due to equipment technology,
doping, man-made body parts, etc. I just think that in order for competition
to be fair, dopers have to compete against dopers, biomechs have to compete
against biomechs, etc.
</Dave Sill>


I for one would like to see dopers against biomechs. Maybe this would make
sports watchable.



From mrjones2020 at gmail.com  Fri Aug  3 15:26:53 2012
From: mrjones2020 at gmail.com (J.R. Jones)
Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2012 11:26:53 -0400
Subject: [ExI] RES: Written for another list
In-Reply-To: <20120803140855.GU12615@leitl.org>
References: <CAPiwVB7-tNN-SJb2-XCVU3qYihvvFKH1in2kDWO_z0==xT2c4Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv3LyqVTv69pVavWCner7rXCcvn2BS8AgfJOd_y5W=RgmA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120801060608.GL12615@leitl.org>
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Message-ID: <CADDVf2LqtxbHnkpOZ9N+vm5itODtQhZo-zv8HBOwZvEz-RZdOQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Aug 3, 2012 10:09 AM, "Eugen Leitl" <eugen at leitl.org> wrote:
>
> On Fri, Aug 03, 2012 at 10:28:29AM -0300, Henrique Moraes Machado wrote:
> > EL> Even so, the need to switch to emergency management is not yet
obvious
> > to many. I suggest to stock up on popcorn.
> >
> > But will we have the energy to pop the popcorn?
>
> You will have the energy to watch people dying on prime time TV.

Oh! So a horror flick!

> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
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From eugen at leitl.org  Fri Aug  3 15:40:55 2012
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2012 17:40:55 +0200
Subject: [ExI] RES: Written for another list
In-Reply-To: <CADDVf2LqtxbHnkpOZ9N+vm5itODtQhZo-zv8HBOwZvEz-RZdOQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB7-tNN-SJb2-XCVU3qYihvvFKH1in2kDWO_z0==xT2c4Q@mail.gmail.com>
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 <20120801060608.GL12615@leitl.org>
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 <CADDVf2LqtxbHnkpOZ9N+vm5itODtQhZo-zv8HBOwZvEz-RZdOQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120803154055.GY12615@leitl.org>

On Fri, Aug 03, 2012 at 11:26:53AM -0400, J.R. Jones wrote:
> On Aug 3, 2012 10:09 AM, "Eugen Leitl" <eugen at leitl.org> wrote:
> >
> > On Fri, Aug 03, 2012 at 10:28:29AM -0300, Henrique Moraes Machado wrote:
> > > EL> Even so, the need to switch to emergency management is not yet
> obvious
> > > to many. I suggest to stock up on popcorn.
> > >
> > > But will we have the energy to pop the popcorn?
> >
> > You will have the energy to watch people dying on prime time TV.
> 
> Oh! So a horror flick!

More a cliffhanger, with plenty of boring scenes full 
of skeletal people succumbing to starvation. No zombies.
Plenty of machetes, some mushroom clouds. I don't care much
for it, to be honest. Zero stars out of five golden future stars.


From johnkclark at gmail.com  Fri Aug  3 16:00:47 2012
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2012 12:00:47 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Written for another list
In-Reply-To: <20120802194129.GX12615@leitl.org>
References: <CAPiwVB7-tNN-SJb2-XCVU3qYihvvFKH1in2kDWO_z0==xT2c4Q@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAJPayv3vbm_hyNTs+jgGNRgpnE2MpGCOycXMovmTgChWcBHkhQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Aug 2, 2012 at 3:41 PM, Eugen Leitl <eugen at leitl.org> wrote:

> Again, I encourage y'all to look fast/slow breeders alternative
> fuelcycles. Most of what John has said was the usual thorium polyanna talk.
> Do read the technical papers and look at the history what happened. You'll
> find that
> it's not that what happened, and not for the reasons claimed.
>

I'd like to debate this but basically all you're saying in your
cross-examination is "no";  so in my redirect I'll just say "yes".

> Our future will be decided within 30-40 years. This sounds melodramatic,
>

Yes it does sound melodramatic. I recall that 30 years ago environmentalist
were saying that if we didn't make profound changes within 30 years about
the way we used energy it would be too late and the human race will be
doomed, well today we have not done so to their satisfaction so lets just
agree that we're doomed and get on with life.

By the way I don't think conserving energy is enough, the government should
pass a law making us conserve angular momentum too. I'm thinking of
starting a advocacy group.

  John K Clark
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From eugen at leitl.org  Fri Aug  3 16:48:56 2012
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2012 18:48:56 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Written for another list
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On Fri, Aug 03, 2012 at 12:00:47PM -0400, John Clark wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 2, 2012 at 3:41 PM, Eugen Leitl <eugen at leitl.org> wrote:
> 
> > Again, I encourage y'all to look fast/slow breeders alternative
> > fuelcycles. Most of what John has said was the usual thorium polyanna talk.
> > Do read the technical papers and look at the history what happened. You'll
> > find that
> > it's not that what happened, and not for the reasons claimed.
> >
> 
> I'd like to debate this but basically all you're saying in your

I ordinarily would take you up on the kind offer, but I've already
spent an inordinary time on the Internet rehashing the thorium
debate with believers, and the conversion factor was negligible 
as the tendency to follow long, technical debates of some complexity which
is outside of people's area of expertise is low, so people
tend to side with an already based opinion.

This doesn't mean you're not accessible to reason, in fact
I'm pretty sure you are. But none of us two have got the time.

> cross-examination is "no";  so in my redirect I'll just say "yes".

No, my argument to other readers was to follow up the points
you made by doing own research. There are plenty of technical
report on operation experience, or, rather, absence, known
incidents, breeding factors, kinetics of bootstrap, inventory 
in-core, CANDU and liquid-salt types, proliferation risk of 
U-233, and so on.
 
> > Our future will be decided within 30-40 years. This sounds melodramatic,
> >
> 
> Yes it does sound melodramatic. I recall that 30 years ago environmentalist
> were saying that if we didn't make profound changes within 30 years about
> the way we used energy it would be too late and the human race will be

Well, it is too late. If we started R&D and conversion in 1970s we
wouldn't have this conversation. There wouldn't be anything to discuss,
as everything would be hunky-dory. How bad things are going to get
we'll know for sure in less than 20 years.

> doomed, well today we have not done so to their satisfaction so lets just
> agree that we're doomed and get on with life.

We (me and you) are not doomed (unless the conflict culminates in a total
nuclear exchange, which is possible but probably not very likely).
Chalk it up to our privilege.
 
> By the way I don't think conserving energy is enough, the government should

I never said a single thing about conserving energy. We need 50-100 TW
by 2050, and if we can't fill that envelope the population will react
adaptively. 

> pass a law making us conserve angular momentum too. I'm thinking of
> starting a advocacy group.

I'm think the people in Nigeria will be investing in machetes
and AK-47s. Forming advocacy groups is the last thing on your
mind if you're dying of hunger.

Of, and if you think corn prices doubling to tripling won't do a thing
to Mexico and South America... they will.


From atymes at gmail.com  Fri Aug  3 17:20:13 2012
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2012 10:20:13 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Kickstarter (was Re: RES: Written for another list)
In-Reply-To: <20120803065708.GA12615@leitl.org>
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On Thu, Aug 2, 2012 at 11:57 PM, Eugen Leitl <eugen at leitl.org> wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 02, 2012 at 04:49:42PM -0600, Kelly Anderson wrote:
>> Kickstarter would almost certainly get you enough money to determine
>> if there is an error in the math. And if there isn't, and you can
>> prove it with current technology, you won't be able to beat off the
>> venture capitalists that will be beating down your door.
>
> Are we even living in the same universe? Your prototype would
> take two-digit MW radiant output, and an array of optics
> to track. If you're really frugal, a few 100 MUSD
> should do. And then you'll get a toy that makes it
> maybe 10 km high.

Scale it down to somewhere in the KWs, and use existing
tracking services rather than building your own.

Seriously, this kind of "you must build your own and you
must build it big" mentality is what's kept the cost for most
space projects astronomical.  That needs to end.  Sure,
it's less efficient - possibly far less - to do it at smaller
scales, but it's also cheap enough that you can demonstrate
that you know what you're doing, which is almost a requirement
for attracting the funding to do it at full scale.

> And of course the next step would involve a maglev
> track, and 1-2 orders of magnitude more power.
> Notice that you're competing with all the launch systems
> in the world, which have started getting mightily
> cheap lately.

DO NOT try to develop your own launch system if you can
avoid it!  And you can avoid it, for the early stages: until
you have some sats up, your development effort is all about
the satellites instead.

>> The key for that first round (in addition to proving the concept in
>> more concrete terms) is to fill out an executive suite with key
>> players that have previous experience (and success) with making money
>> for venture capitalists. The due diligence of a venture capitalist is
>
> Have you noticed that SpaceX is not run by VCs?

The guy who is running it knows a thing or two about due
diligence, and had had previous experience making money
developing technology.

>> Don't be an idealist, hire people with a history of successfully
>> dealing with venture before. Preferably in the energy arena. Look for
>> a venture fund that is focused on energy, preferably green energy (if
>> such a fund exists), then look for the big successes in their
>> collection of companies, and send a professional head hunter after the
>> executives in those companies. Be very aggressive in hiring those
>> people, and if you succeed in hiring someone that the venture people
>> have made money off of before, then you're in!
>
> In aerospace, worst advice ever.

It may be better to hire for aerospace experience rather than
green energy experience.  Other than that, the advice
generally applies.

>> Don't try to be the president of this company yourself. You just be
>> the technology guy. Stay humble, the VCs like that.
>
> Sorry, but you're out to lunch. Way powerful stuff you've been smoking.

It's called "real life" and "experience".  Kelly's advice sounds
mostly correct to me.


From pharos at gmail.com  Fri Aug  3 17:31:02 2012
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2012 18:31:02 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Written for another list
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On Fri, Aug 3, 2012 at 5:48 PM, Eugen Leitl  wrote:
> I ordinarily would take you up on the kind offer, but I've already
> spent an inordinary time on the Internet rehashing the thorium
> debate with believers, and the conversion factor was negligible
> as the tendency to follow long, technical debates of some complexity which
> is outside of people's area of expertise is low, so people
> tend to side with an already based opinion.
>
> No, my argument to other readers was to follow up the points
> you made by doing own research. There are plenty of technical
> report on operation experience, or, rather, absence, known
> incidents, breeding factors, kinetics of bootstrap, inventory
> in-core, CANDU and liquid-salt types, proliferation risk of
> U-233, and so on.
>


You don't need to do much research. There is a very optimistic
Wikipedia article -
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_fluoride_thorium_reactor>

Even allowing for the optimistic bias it is clear that LFTRs do not
exist at present.
The Chinese have announced a 20 year development project.

Other research projects are less well funded. (but still optimistic).


BillK


From atymes at gmail.com  Fri Aug  3 19:27:37 2012
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2012 12:27:37 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Written for another list
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On Thu, Aug 2, 2012 at 8:29 AM, Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 2, 2012 at 4:51 AM,  Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, Jul 31, 2012 at 9:52 PM, Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> In the bootstrap plan I have outlined, the power from the first
>>> expensive (built with conventional rockets) power sat is used to power
>>> propulsion lasers.  That lets you build more power sats at a much
>>> lower cost than the first one.  The energy the first one generates is
>>> worth around 100 times as much bringing up parts for more power
>>> satellites as it would be to sell it to ground markets.
>>
>> How do you calculate this 100 times?
>
> The power can be used to raise 500,000 tons per year to GEO.  At
> $100/kg this is worth $50 B per year.  3.5 GW sold for power at 2 cent
> per kWh brings in $0.56 B/year

False comparison: you're leaving out all the non-energy
costs of launching stuff - and the vast bulk of modern
launch costs is non-energy.  Instead, it is the
bureaucratese and project management that comes
with a series of one-off prototypes, one after another.

So, no, you would not be getting $100/kg out of it.
(Even if you were, you're "paying" yourself: always a
red flag that you're getting an incorrect value, and not
an income stream you can use to fund the rest of the
project with in any case.)

>>> There has been a lot of looking at selling power from space to the
>>> military.  Never reached the big study phase because there are just
>>> too many problems.  The military wants power in MW or sub MW chunks.
>>> Microwave power sats at 2.45 GHz don't scale below 5 GW
>>
>> So what happens if you put a 50 MW sat up?  Is it:
>>
>> 1) More expensive per MW?
>> 2) More expensive overall - not per MW, but the total project cost -
>> than 5 GW?
>> 3) Impossible?
>>
>> If it's just #1 - so long as the total cost is lower, that's fine.
>>
>> #2 or #3 would need serious justification.
>
> Between 2 and 3.

Your proof does not convince of that.

> You need a minimum induced voltage on the rectenna
> diodes for them to forward conduct.

Watts are not a measure of voltage.  Volts are voltage.
The minimum voltage can be induced for a power less
than MW, possibly sub-W.

For example, the common household microwave oven
can induce voltage in rectennas places within them.
They use much less than a MW to do so, and the
rectennas are less than a meter across.  (The results
tend to destroy the oven, so casually experimenting
with this is not advised, but there is ample evidence
that power transfer on this small magnitude works.)
Granted, the distances are far, far less than orbital,
but we're just talking about the minimum power
received to drive the rectenna.

> 50 MW is 1/100 of 5000 MW.  So
> the ground antenna would need to be one km across and the antenna in
> space 10 km in diameter and would cost 100 times as much as a
> transmitter for a 5 GW unit.

How does the fact that you're transmitting less power
translate into requiring a larger antenna?  Unless
you're basing off the minimum - in which case, you
need to show why the minimum is so gigantic.

>>> But if we were to build laser power sats for the military, they would
>>> probable use them as weapons rather than power.
>>
>> Lasers like that are strategic weapons.  They hit areas, not
>> individual targets.
>
> Not at all.  To be useful for propulsion, they need to put about all
> that power into 150 square meters at 20 MW/m^2.  That's a little over
> 12 meters across.

That's "strategic" in modern military parlance.  You're
hitting an entire building, not a person or vehicle.
This is trivially defeated by colocating the target with
civilian infrastructure, which infrastructure is an
unacceptable target (to most modern Western
militaries, anyway).

Besides, they already have ample and sufficient
weapons to take out targets of that size - and more
controllable, too.  A missile can be pulled off if it is
realized after the shot that the target is incorrect.
A laser - once you pull the trigger, that's it.

>> What about using shorter wavelengths, such as visible light?
>
> Then a cloud cuts off the power.  It's part of the reason we start the
> laser propulsion above 10 km, to get over the clouds.

I'm talking about for prototypes and bootstrapping,
where intermittent interruption by clouds is acceptable.
You're not going to have need or even much use for
launch power 24/7 until way down the line, when you
have enough capital that you're manufacturing sats
like crazy.  (Remember, the satellites themselves
cost a lot of money, beyond their launch costs.
Unless you have them manufactured on the Moon -
and let's assume fully automated manufacture so we
can handwave ongoing labor costs - but then, the
tough part becomes getting the infrastructure up there
first.)

>>>>>>> I am mainly interested in making a case that there *is* a way out of
>>>>>>> the energy/carbon problems without an 80% die off.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The theoretical case has long been made.  The challenge now
>>>>>> is the litmus test: actually doing it.
>>>>>
>>>>> That's news to me.  Where?
>>>>
>>>> The theoretical case having been made?  Here, for one.
>>>> This very list.
>>>
>>> I don't remember such discussion.
>>
>> And how long have you been on this list?
>
> Off an on since 1989.

You must have been off every time the case was made,
then.

>> Ways to save the world without a massive dieoff are
>> discussed not infrequently.  Maybe not any specific
>> proposal or case, but the general discussion has
>> long since chased away any presumption that we
>> must necessarily fail and that humanity is doomed.
>
> Well, this is one specific proposal.  There is no certainty that I got
> either the assumptions or the spreadsheet formulas right though.

Yes, but you said you wanted to make the case that
there is at least one way.  That case has already been
made in general.  What you're actually talking about
is your specific proposal, so you need to be clearer
about your intent.

You need to be clearer to yourself, first and foremost,
as to why you're doing this.  That will help you make
your case better.

>> I meant that I didn't understand *that* the rest of the cost was
>> generation equipment.
>
> OK.  The rough cost breakdown is in the paper.

That's the one you haven't sent?  Or did you mean the
Boeing one, which I reject as an unreliable data source
since they have a history of invalid (and often
cost-inflated) data for this sort of thing.

>>> You could pack a few mW of microwave transmitter into a CubSat.
>>>
>>> Why bother when there are communication satellites pouring down as
>>> much as ten kW of microwaves?
>>
>> Because you don't have the money to put up a big enough
>> satellite to pour down 10 kW, but you might have enough for
>> a CubeSat.  And because there are concerns other than
>> just "can it be done in theory" that you must demonstrate.
>
> The communication satellites are already up there pouring down kWs of
> power.  Why do I need to put up a mW cube sat when they are already
> doing the same thing at orders of magnitude more power?

Because there are concerns other than
just "can it be done in theory" that you must demonstrate.
The biggest one: can *YOU* do it?  Can you, personally, get
all the pieces together, make it fly, get some - any - amount
of power, and thus show that you have indeed solved all the
challenges?  (All the analysis in the world might miss some
physics objections; actually doing it will automatically do
it.)

Put another way: why do you believe that the fact that
other people have put up comsats pouring down KW
of power for communication, will convince anyone that
you, personally, have the know-how and ability (if funded)
to put up satellites that would pour down any amount of
power for a different use (power itself)?

> The hard part is not the power satellite design or getting the power
> down.  That's been understood for decades, Boeing had a $10 M plus
> contract to do so back in the late 70s plus they spent a *lot* of
> their own money on it and still have enough interest to send people to
> conferences.

Perhaps it wouldn't be hard for Boeing.  But we're not
talking about Boeing.  We're talking about you.

> The hard part is getting the cost of lifting hundreds of thousands of
> tons of parts to GEO down to where power sats make economic sense.
> Laser propulsion is the way to go.  That's only recently become
> possible with large versions of the tiny laser diodes in CD player.

Right.  So, how are you going to show people that you
can do this?

> No sane investor is going to put me in charge of spending the national
> budget of a fair sized country for ten years.  And putting up a
> CubeSat would not affect that fact one iota.

By itself, perhaps not.  But putting up a CubeSat would
justify putting you in charge of something larger.  And
if that works, larger still.

And that's *how* people eventually wind up in charge
of budgets like that: they worked their way up.

> This is about a
> *concept* for how to get the cost to GEO down.  I don't even have an
> IP interest in it because (for various reasons) I have been doing this
> work open source.  The idea, meme if you want, stands or falls without
> me.

Then your work is in vain.  If there's no chance that
anyone will ever bend metal to your design, be inspired
by it, or any other concrete result, you may as well have
done nothing.

I speak from experience.  I have multiple patents for
various systems, and I now and then try to get others
to build them - see what it would take.  If I just made
the design and left it there, not seeking to get it to
those who could make it real, it would have been a
wasted effort.  (As it happens, I have yet to get some
of the designs to said people, so those efforts have
yet to bear fruit.  Others have born fruit, and it was
excellent.  But that never would have happened had I
paid no attention to the intermediate phases of how
to make the ideas real.)

>> If a single CubeSat can get a few mW down to the ground,
>> what kind of thrust could you get on a 1-mg launch vehicle?
>
> It's easy enough to calculate.
>
> One mw is one mJ/s.  100% applied to one mg it would generate
> acceleration at one meter/sec, which is about 10% of what you need
> just to overcome gravity.

So you could launch a 1 mg vehicle with about 50 mW, then,
assuming 20% efficiency?

> But a CubeSat would be hard pressed to put out a mW.

CubeSats - if dedicated mostly to solar panels and
transmitter - can pull in and put out a few Ws.  For
example:
http://www.clyde-space.com/cubesat_shop/solar_panels/1u_solar_panels/50_1u-cubesat-side-solar-panel

> And that mW
> could not be focused by something that small so the energy would go
> more or less uniformly over the entire space.

Orbit-to-ground laser communicators are being
investigated for CubeSats.  Last I heard, 1 W of
power at the source results in some number of
mW power of signal received.  One could simply
not bother to encode a signal, and instead use it
for power directly.  I forget whether they're using
visual, microwave, or another frequency, but the
receivers are less than a meter across.


From johnkclark at gmail.com  Fri Aug  3 20:40:40 2012
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2012 16:40:40 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Written for another list
In-Reply-To: <20120803164856.GZ12615@leitl.org>
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On Fri, Aug 3, 2012  PM, Eugen Leitl <eugen at leitl.org> wrote:

> There are plenty of technical report on operation experience, or, rather,
> absence,


Well, the last LFTR was shut down in 1969 so I admit there are not a lot of
people with experience at operating one, although many more than have
experience operating a power satellite.

> CANDU


CANDU is a solid fuel Uranium reactor. A LFTR is a liquid fuel Thorium
reactor. Big difference

> proliferation risk of U-233,


Proliferation is a vastly smaller problem with a LFTR and its U-233 than
with a conventional reactor and its Plutonium for a number of reasons:

1) Theoretically you can do it but it's hard to make a bomb with U-233,
much harder than with Plutonium,  and in fact nobody has ever made a pure
U-233 bomb; the closest was a Plutonium/ U-233 hybrid and the explosive
yield was much less than expected, almost a fizzle.

2) In a LFTR U-233 will always be contaminated with U232 which gives off
such intense Gamma rays it would screw up the bomb electronics, be easy to
detect, and probably killed the terrorist long before he was half finished
making it.

3) The U233 is completely burned up inside the reactor where its hard to
steal, unlike existing reactors where used fuel rods are shipped to
reprocessing  plants to extract the Plutonium. In one case the potential
bomb making material needs to be shipped across the country, with a LFTR it
never leaves the reactor building.

4) A regular reactor produces lots of neutrons but a LFTR makes less of
them, so it needs all that U233 to keep the chain reaction going, if you
try stealing some the reactor will simply stop operating making the theft
obvious.

> if you think corn prices doubling to tripling won't do a thing to Mexico
> and South America... they will.
>

And one reason corn is so expensive is that idiotic renewable energy
resource Bio-fuel; turning food into fuel is just not a good idea.

  John K Clark
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From eugen at leitl.org  Fri Aug  3 21:13:04 2012
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2012 23:13:04 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Written for another list
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On Fri, Aug 03, 2012 at 04:40:40PM -0400, John Clark wrote:
> On Fri, Aug 3, 2012  PM, Eugen Leitl <eugen at leitl.org> wrote:
> 
> > There are plenty of technical report on operation experience, or, rather,
> > absence,
> 
> 
> Well, the last LFTR was shut down in 1969 so I admit there are not a lot of

The last LFTR was not a breeder. It did not ran on the thorium fuel cycle. 
At all. It did not do online fuel reprocessing. It also ran too hot. It also had
fluorine liberation due to irradtion, despite monel alloy. It also ran
three orders of magnitude below production power.

All in all LFTR did not really exist, nevermind exist long enough
to gather enough data points.

See? These all things off the top off my head none of the thorium
polyannas mention. And this is why I refuse to discuss it. Because
it's not worth it. Somebody is wrong on the Internet? Big fucking deal.

> people with experience at operating one, although many more than have
> experience operating a power satellite.
> 
> > CANDU
> 
> 
> CANDU is a solid fuel Uranium reactor. A LFTR is a liquid fuel Thorium

There are thorium CANDUs. As a thorium advocate you should be very 
aware of differences between the different types. Why aren't you?

> reactor. Big difference

Exactly.
 
> > proliferation risk of U-233,
> 
> 
> Proliferation is a vastly smaller problem with a LFTR and its U-233 than
> with a conventional reactor and its Plutonium for a number of reasons:
> 
> 1) Theoretically you can do it but it's hard to make a bomb with U-233,
> much harder than with Plutonium,  and in fact nobody has ever made a pure

Bullshit. I can make you a U233 bomb no problem. So why don't we send
the issue to the pile of the history, where it belongs?

> U-233 bomb; the closest was a Plutonium/ U-233 hybrid and the explosive

BZZT.

> yield was much less than expected, almost a fizzle.
> 
> 2) In a LFTR U-233 will always be contaminated with U232 which gives off
> such intense Gamma rays it would screw up the bomb electronics, be easy to
> detect, and probably killed the terrorist long before he was half finished
> making it.

BZZT.
 
> 3) The U233 is completely burned up inside the reactor where its hard to

You forget online fuel processing. BZZT.

> steal, unlike existing reactors where used fuel rods are shipped to

There are no rods in a molten salt, which is processed incrementally.

> reprocessing  plants to extract the Plutonium. In one case the potential

U233 is separated online, so no PUREX. Very easy.

> bomb making material needs to be shipped across the country, with a LFTR it
> never leaves the reactor building.

Yes, you produce your fissibles inside the very building incrementally.
Ain't that the greatest feature ever?
 
> 4) A regular reactor produces lots of neutrons but a LFTR makes less of
> them, so it needs all that U233 to keep the chain reaction going, if you
> try stealing some the reactor will simply stop operating making the theft
> obvious.

Fast breeders and slow breeders have different breeding factors. Why
don't you know that, as a thorium advocate?
 
> > if you think corn prices doubling to tripling won't do a thing to Mexico
> > and South America... they will.
> >
> 
> And one reason corn is so expensive is that idiotic renewable energy

The reason corn will be so expensive is because we've got crop failure.

How many crop failures is the world away from starvation?

> resource Bio-fuel; turning food into fuel is just not a good idea.

It is an idiotic idea. But the Irish died fine despite absence of
biofuels. All it takes is 2-3 years of consecutive crop failure.
So if the rains stay out, and you have no energy for seawater desalination
nor irrigation nor nitrogen fixation, what are you gonna do? What are
you gonna do? Try dying. It's so easy. It's the default. It takes
work not to.


From msd001 at gmail.com  Sat Aug  4 01:19:40 2012
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2012 21:19:40 -0400
Subject: [ExI] RES: Written for another list
In-Reply-To: <20120803140855.GU12615@leitl.org>
References: <CAPiwVB7-tNN-SJb2-XCVU3qYihvvFKH1in2kDWO_z0==xT2c4Q@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CAJPayv3pqR_bCcv=vL7ntX7AuMTdv8xq7f7C3z6W3CAzhJquZw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJX-7wXAwQELM44Y8n-1O2m2r+=HsYXbgxd=+PYLZhEL2ux1hg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120802194129.GX12615@leitl.org>
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Message-ID: <CAOJFdbJsyGYu16PTpz-xu+9FfehpVRu7YQh74gbpNY+EcndHTg@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Aug 3, 2012 at 10:08 AM, Eugen Leitl <eugen at leitl.org> wrote:
> On Fri, Aug 03, 2012 at 10:28:29AM -0300, Henrique Moraes Machado wrote:
>> EL> Even so, the need to switch to emergency management is not yet obvious
>> to many. I suggest to stock up on popcorn.
>>
>> But will we have the energy to pop the popcorn?
>
> You will have the energy to watch people dying on prime time TV.

Are you kidding?  If they could get around the legal issues, Fox would
already be doing that...


From johnkclark at gmail.com  Sat Aug  4 06:04:15 2012
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2012 02:04:15 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Written for another list
In-Reply-To: <20120803211304.GD12615@leitl.org>
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Message-ID: <CAJPayv0tHceHSpLtQBubdAcZCzJ5+MGZM0a2TeO2wpJzCdTtpw@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Aug 3, 2012 at 5:13 PM, Eugen Leitl <eugen at leitl.org> wrote:

> The last LFTR was not a breeder. It did not ran on the thorium fuel cycle.
>

LFTR stands for Liquid Florine THORIUM Reactor, and you say it does not
have Thorium. That does not compute. A LFTR has to be a breeder because
Thorium is not fissile but U233 is and you can breed that from Thorium.

  > It did not do online fuel reprocessing.


Don't be ridiculous, if you don't do constant online reprocessing a LFTR
will not operate and the MSRE at Oak Ridge operated for years.

> It also ran too hot.


Too hot, where did you hear that? LFTR's are  supposed to run hotter than
conventional reactors, they can do so because the liquid used doesn't boil
till 680F at atmospheric pressure and you get better thermal efficiency as
a result.

>It also had fluorine liberation due to irradtion, despite monel alloy.


Yes there were problems with that at first but they were fixed. Neutrons
weakened the original alloy but when they added fine carbon particles to it
the metal the problem was greatly reduced. And Tritium diffused into the
alloy also weakening it, so they started removing the tritium along with
neutron poisons like Xenon at the reprocessing stage and that problem went
away too.


> > It also ran three orders of magnitude below production power
>

That is true and a valid criticism, I did say it was a small experimental
reactor. However it did run at full power 87% of the time for 15 months,
the official report in 1970 said " When measured against the yardstick of
other reactors in a comparable stage of development, it is seem to be
indeed remarkable".

> There are thorium CANDUs.


There is talk about testing Thorium in a CANDU and I hope it works, but if
you use solid fuel as a CANDU does then many (but perhaps not all) of the
advantages of a LFTR are lost.

> Bullshit.
>

I'm thinking of filing a copyright infringement lawsuit.

> I can make you a U233 bomb no problem.


Maybe you can make such a bomb with no problem but others have had
difficulties. As far as I know this was attempted only twice, in 1955 the
USA set off a plutonium-U233 composite bomb, it was expected to produce 33
kilotons but only managed 22; and in 1998 India tried it but it was a
complete flop, it produced a miniscule explosion of only 200 tons. To my
knowledge no nation today has U233 bombs in their stockpile. If you have
previously unavailable information on this subject I'm all ears.

As I said you can make a bomb out of U233 but its hard as hell, so with
thousands of tons of easy to use Plutonium already produced and more made
every day in conventional reactors, not to mention thousands of poorly
guarded fully functional bombs in the former USSR, why would any self
respecting terrorist bother with U233, especially when it's so hard to
steal from a LFTR?

> U233 is separated online, so no PUREX. Very easy.
>

The liquid nuclear fuel in a LFTR does need to be constantly reprocessed
while it is operating but NOT to separate out U233 but to get rid of the
Xenon-135!  Xenon is a noble gas that is harmless to people but not to
reactors because it loves to absorb neutrons. If the reprocessing is done
incorrectly nothing blows up, the reactor simply stops; and if you actually
tried to remove even a little of the U233 at this stage the reactor would
also stop.

> Fast breeders and slow breeders have different breeding factors.


Thanks for the news flash. I could be wrong but I'm guessing that Fast
breeders are faster than slow breeders. Am I correct?

> Why don't you know that, as a thorium advocate?
>

I guess I'm a little slow.

  John K Clark
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From eugen at leitl.org  Sat Aug  4 09:10:23 2012
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2012 11:10:23 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Written for another list
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Message-ID: <20120804091023.GH12615@leitl.org>

On Sat, Aug 04, 2012 at 02:04:15AM -0400, John Clark wrote:
> On Fri, Aug 3, 2012 at 5:13 PM, Eugen Leitl <eugen at leitl.org> wrote:
> 
> > The last LFTR was not a breeder. It did not ran on the thorium fuel cycle.
> >
> 
> LFTR stands for Liquid Florine THORIUM Reactor, and you say it does not

Exactly.

> have Thorium. That does not compute. A LFTR has to be a breeder because

No, I said it was not a breeder. That's because it wasn't. It had
no thorium salt blanket. It ran first on U-235 and then U-233 which
was bred in other reactors. Which did not ran on the thorium cycle.

The LFTR was not a thorium cycle reactor breeder. 

The LFTR was not a thorium cycle reactor breeder.

The LFTR was not a thorium cycle reactor breeder.

> Thorium is not fissile but U233 is and you can breed that from Thorium.
> 
>   > It did not do online fuel reprocessing.
> 
> 
> Don't be ridiculous, if you don't do constant online reprocessing a LFTR
> will not operate and the MSRE at Oak Ridge operated for years.

It ran for 1.5 effective years total at 7.4 MWh. It did not ran as
a breeder, so sustained operability of LFTR either as fast or slow 
breeders is completely untested. Rebuilding a pilot would take at
least a decade, and production, *if* the pilot was deemed viable
would be at least another decade away. Meanwhile we need a substitution
rate of effective TW/year for the next 40 years. The potential
viability window for LFTR breeders as large scale source of energy
closed in late 20th century.

Stick a fork in it. It's done.
 
> > It also ran too hot.
> 
> 
> Too hot, where did you hear that? LFTR's are  supposed to run hotter than
> conventional reactors, they can do so because the liquid used doesn't boil
> till 680F at atmospheric pressure and you get better thermal efficiency as
> a result.

We're not making progress. Again, I don't have time for this, and 
you already show that you have a very selective perception of reality.

This is typical for thorium polyannas, and this is why I no longer
debate thorium polyannas. Or creationists.
 
> >It also had fluorine liberation due to irradtion, despite monel alloy.
> 
> 
> Yes there were problems with that at first but they were fixed. Neutrons
> weakened the original alloy but when they added fine carbon particles to it
> the metal the problem was greatly reduced. And Tritium diffused into the
> alloy also weakening it, so they started removing the tritium along with
> neutron poisons like Xenon at the reprocessing stage and that problem went
> away too.
> 
> 
> > > It also ran three orders of magnitude below production power
> >
> 
> That is true and a valid criticism, I did say it was a small experimental
> reactor. However it did run at full power 87% of the time for 15 months,
> the official report in 1970 said " When measured against the yardstick of
> other reactors in a comparable stage of development, it is seem to be
> indeed remarkable".
> 
> > There are thorium CANDUs.
> 
> 
> There is talk about testing Thorium in a CANDU and I hope it works, but if
> you use solid fuel as a CANDU does then many (but perhaps not all) of the
> advantages of a LFTR are lost.
> 
> > Bullshit.
> >
> 
> I'm thinking of filing a copyright infringement lawsuit.
> 
> > I can make you a U233 bomb no problem.
> 
> 
> Maybe you can make such a bomb with no problem but others have had
> difficulties. As far as I know this was attempted only twice, in 1955 the
> USA set off a plutonium-U233 composite bomb, it was expected to produce 33
> kilotons but only managed 22; and in 1998 India tried it but it was a
> complete flop, it produced a miniscule explosion of only 200 tons. To my
> knowledge no nation today has U233 bombs in their stockpile. If you have
> previously unavailable information on this subject I'm all ears.
> 
> As I said you can make a bomb out of U233 but its hard as hell, so with
> thousands of tons of easy to use Plutonium already produced and more made
> every day in conventional reactors, not to mention thousands of poorly
> guarded fully functional bombs in the former USSR, why would any self
> respecting terrorist bother with U233, especially when it's so hard to
> steal from a LFTR?
> 
> > U233 is separated online, so no PUREX. Very easy.
> >
> 
> The liquid nuclear fuel in a LFTR does need to be constantly reprocessed
> while it is operating but NOT to separate out U233 but to get rid of the
> Xenon-135!  Xenon is a noble gas that is harmless to people but not to
> reactors because it loves to absorb neutrons. If the reprocessing is done
> incorrectly nothing blows up, the reactor simply stops; and if you actually
> tried to remove even a little of the U233 at this stage the reactor would
> also stop.
> 
> > Fast breeders and slow breeders have different breeding factors.
> 
> 
> Thanks for the news flash. I could be wrong but I'm guessing that Fast
> breeders are faster than slow breeders. Am I correct?
> 
> > Why don't you know that, as a thorium advocate?
> >
> 
> I guess I'm a little slow.


From eugen at leitl.org  Sat Aug  4 09:41:02 2012
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2012 11:41:02 +0200
Subject: [ExI] RES: Written for another list
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On Fri, Aug 03, 2012 at 09:19:40PM -0400, Mike Dougherty wrote:

> > You will have the energy to watch people dying on prime time TV.
> 
> Are you kidding?  If they could get around the legal issues, Fox would
> already be doing that...

For some reason Fox is not very interested in covering daily
realities in parts of Senegal, Mauritania, Mali, Burkina Faso, 
Algeria, Niger, Nigeria, Chad, Sudan, South Sudan, Cameroon, 
Eritrea, and other parts of the world.


From johnkclark at gmail.com  Sat Aug  4 14:28:06 2012
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2012 10:28:06 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Written for another list
In-Reply-To: <20120804091023.GH12615@leitl.org>
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On Sat, Aug 4, 2012 at 5:10 AM, Eugen Leitl <eugen at leitl.org> wrote:

> It [ the 1960 era MSRE reactor] had no thorium salt blanket.


True, they wanted to include one but the budget was so tiny they couldn't.
Incidentally in your last post you mentioned damage to the metal in the
pipes of the MSRE caused by neutrons and other forms of radiation and that
did occur, but in a large production reactor the pipes would be protected
by the Thorium blanket that breeds the U233.


> > It ran first on U-235 and then U-233 which was bred in other reactors.


True again.

> Which did not ran on the thorium cycle.
>

If it ran on U233 it had to make use of the thorium cycle because U233 does
not exist in nature; if you want some the only way to get it is to breed it
from Thorium.


> > This is typical for thorium polyannas, and this is why I no longer
> debate thorium polyannas. Or creationists.
>

Now that's a low blow, and its a pity because this was just starting to get
fun.

  John K Clark
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From eugen at leitl.org  Sat Aug  4 16:04:52 2012
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2012 18:04:52 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Written for another list
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On Sat, Aug 04, 2012 at 10:28:06AM -0400, John Clark wrote:

> > Which did not ran on the thorium cycle.
> >
> 
> If it ran on U233 it had to make use of the thorium cycle because U233 does
> not exist in nature; if you want some the only way to get it is to breed it
> from Thorium.

Using a *different* preparative neutron source which ran on 
the uranium fuel cycle. Which is why they did it with U-235
first, because they simply did not have the production 
capacity to produce enough U-233 to kickstart the process,
nevermind to show that the assembly has sufficiently
high breeding factor to be fertile. 

Again, the only interesting part of LFTR *concept* is 
in that it's a molten salt fast or slow breeder based 
on the thorium fuel cycle. Because we know that uranium
cycle fast breeders are impractical.

The *concept* has never been validated in all aspects of
practical operation in a pilot which ran for any time at
output close to commercially relevant.

As such it is currently impossible to talk about LFTR as
a practical, scalable energy source, nevermind a safe practical
energy source. 

As we've ran out of time to research and deploy solutions
we will provably not be able to find that out should we
ever want to try -- you will find a curious absence of 
such attempts even in countries which should be very interested
in alternative fuelcycle breeders. Makes one wonder,
doesn't it.

Which is why the people who so vocally, annoyingly bray about
the stupid politicians who doom the world by not deploying
all these thousands ~GW of molten salt thorium reactors per year 
are massively delusional. 

Meanwhile, we have dozens of *proven* solutions which need
to be rolled out on a very wide scale which unfortunately have
no vocal supporters. Nor absolutely vital parts of R&D
that absolutely, positively need to be done, now on an emergency
schedule (because they were not done in the last 40 years,
where we knew what we know today, and what needed to be done).

This is the part that makes me stock up on popcorn.
 
> > > This is typical for thorium polyannas, and this is why I no longer
> > debate thorium polyannas. Or creationists.
> >
> 
> Now that's a low blow, and its a pity because this was just starting to get
> fun.

You're a strange man, John.


From johnkclark at gmail.com  Sat Aug  4 17:49:39 2012
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2012 13:49:39 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Written for another list
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On Sat, Aug 4, Eugen Leitl <eugen at leitl.org> wrote:

> Using a *different* preparative neutron source which ran on the uranium
> fuel cycle. Which is why they did it with U-235 first, because they simply
> did not have the production capacity to produce enough U-233 to kickstart
> the process,
>

You always need U-235 or some other neutron source to get the ball rolling
to produce some initial U-233 for ANY Thorium reactor, but after that it's
no longer necessary and its on its own.

> Again, the only interesting part of LFTR *concept* is in that it's a
> molten salt fast or slow breeder based
> on the thorium fuel cycle.


LFTR is different from all other fission reactors in 2 ways:

1) It uses Thorium as fuel.
2) It uses a liquid not a solid fuel.

> Because we know that uranium cycle fast breeders are impractical.
>

I too think Uranium breeders suck.


> > The *concept* has never been validated in all aspects of practical
> operation


True nobody has yet made a operational LFTR power plant yet, maybe because
after a very promising start with a reactor that produced millions of watts
of power nobody has spent a nickle on the idea in nearly 45 years.
Meanwhile tens of billions of dollars have been spent on fusion reactors
and even today they have yet to output one more watt of power than they
input. Something is badly out of balance.

> we have dozens of *proven* solutions which need to be rolled out on a
> very wide scale


Proven?  You can't be talking about wind power or tidal power or solar or
bio-fuel or geothermal or fusion or power satellites. So what are you
talking about?

> which unfortunately have no vocal supporters.


They have lots of very vocal supporters in Washington, they're called
"lobbyist". Nobody would dream of building a wind farm if the government
didn't bribe companies to do so because it's just not practical otherwise.

> Nor absolutely vital parts of R&Dthat absolutely, positively need to be
> done, now on an emergency schedule (because they were not done in the last
> 40 years
>

What are you talking about?? In the last 40 years billions of dollars of
R&D money have been spent on all the "green and renewable" energy sources I
mentioned above (except power satellites), and none of them amount to a
bucket of warm spit, meanwhile the amount spent on LFTR research is zero.


> This is the part that makes me stock up on popcorn.
>

Yes, we may live in interesting times because 7 billion large mammals
called human beings want to have a a good standard of living and they can't
do that from the energy produced by moonbeams and hummingbirds despite the
insistence of environmentalists. This is serious business because if they
can't live well a sizable portion of that 7 billion are going to get mad.
So you shouldn't automatically reject a possible solution just because it
has the word "nuclear" in it.

> You're a strange man, John.
>

I've been told that before.

  John K Clark
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From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Sat Aug  4 17:30:46 2012
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2012 10:30:46 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Written for another list
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On Sat, Aug 4, 2012 at 2:10 AM,  Eugen Leitl <eugen at leitl.org> wrote:

> On Fri, Aug 03, 2012 at 12:00:47PM -0400, John Clark wrote:

snip

>> By the way I don't think conserving energy is enough, the government should
>
> I never said a single thing about conserving energy. We need 50-100 TW
> by 2050, and if we can't fill that envelope the population will react
> adaptively.

Model I have worked out should be up to cranking out two TW/year by
2025 so 50 TW should be OK.  100 TW would not be much harder.  Even
ten years ago this would have been unthinkable because we had no idea
of how to build the propulsion lasers.

>> pass a law making us conserve angular momentum too. I'm thinking of
>> starting a advocacy group.

Heh.  If we had the material to build space elevators, they can be
more than 100% energy efficient at raising cargo to GEO.  If the up
traffic is greater than the down traffic, then the elevator leans back
in the sky against the direction of the rotation of the Earth and
extracts payload velocity to GEO from the rotation of the Earth.
Slowing the Earth lengthens the day by an exceedingly small amount,
but it is enough to generate a protest slogan "Conserve Angular
Momentum."

 Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote

> On Thu, Aug 2, 2012 at 8:29 AM, Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Thu, Aug 2, 2012 at 4:51 AM,  Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, Jul 31, 2012 at 9:52 PM, Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> In the bootstrap plan I have outlined, the power from the first
>>>> expensive (built with conventional rockets) power sat is used to power
>>>> propulsion lasers.  That lets you build more power sats at a much
>>>> lower cost than the first one.  The energy the first one generates is
>>>> worth around 100 times as much bringing up parts for more power
>>>> satellites as it would be to sell it to ground markets.
>>>
>>> How do you calculate this 100 times?
>>
>> The power can be used to raise 500,000 tons per year to GEO.  At
>> $100/kg this is worth $50 B per year.  3.5 GW sold for power at 2 cent
>> per kWh brings in $0.56 B/year
>
> False comparison: you're leaving out all the non-energy
> costs of launching stuff - and the vast bulk of modern
> launch costs is non-energy.  Instead, it is the
> bureaucratese and project management that comes
> with a series of one-off prototypes, one after another.
>
> So, no, you would not be getting $100/kg out of it.
> (Even if you were, you're "paying" yourself: always a
> red flag that you're getting an incorrect value, and not
> an income stream you can use to fund the rest of the
> project with in any case.)

You asked how I calculated what the first power sat was worth powering
propulsion lasers vs selling the power.

>>>> There has been a lot of looking at selling power from space to the
>>>> military.  Never reached the big study phase because there are just
>>>> too many problems.  The military wants power in MW or sub MW chunks.
>>>> Microwave power sats at 2.45 GHz don't scale below 5 GW
>>>
>>> So what happens if you put a 50 MW sat up?  Is it:
>>>
>>> 1) More expensive per MW?
>>> 2) More expensive overall - not per MW, but the total project cost -
>>> than 5 GW?
>>> 3) Impossible?
>>>
>>> If it's just #1 - so long as the total cost is lower, that's fine.
>>>
>>> #2 or #3 would need serious justification.
>>
>> Between 2 and 3.
>
> Your proof does not convince of that.
>
>> You need a minimum induced voltage on the rectenna
>> diodes for them to forward conduct.
>
> Watts are not a measure of voltage.  Volts are voltage.
> The minimum voltage can be induced for a power less
> than MW, possibly sub-W.

Schottky diodes have a forward voltage drop between approximately
0.15?0.45 volts.  For voltage levels below where they start to
conduct, you don't get output at all from a rectenna.  Normal
operation of a rectenna is around 1/4 kW/m^2  At 25 diodes per m^2,
250 W/25 is ten W/diode.  Assuming an antenna equivalent of 50 ohms,
the induced voltage across a diode would be V^2 =10*50.  Or 22.4
volts, plenty to put the diode in forward conduction.  Keep the
geometry the same and drop the power to 0.5 MW.  Now we are down to 1
mW/diode and V^2 = 0.01*50, or 0.22 volts.  No output.

> For example, the common household microwave oven
> can induce voltage in rectennas places within them.
> They use much less than a MW to do so, and the
> rectennas are less than a meter across.  (The results
> tend to destroy the oven, so casually experimenting
> with this is not advised, but there is ample evidence
> that power transfer on this small magnitude works.)

The power level in a microwave oven is around 20 kW/m^2.

> Granted, the distances are far, far less than orbital,
> but we're just talking about the minimum power
> received to drive the rectenna.
>
>> 50 MW is 1/100 of 5000 MW.  So
>> the ground antenna would need to be one km across and the antenna in
>> space 10 km in diameter and would cost 100 times as much as a
>> transmitter for a 5 GW unit.
>
> How does the fact that you're transmitting less power
> translate into requiring a larger antenna?  Unless
> you're basing off the minimum - in which case, you
> need to show why the minimum is so gigantic.

Microwave optics.  It's what drives power sats to such large sizes.

>>>> But if we were to build laser power sats for the military, they would
>>>> probable use them as weapons rather than power.
>>>
>>> Lasers like that are strategic weapons.  They hit areas, not
>>> individual targets.
>>
>> Not at all.  To be useful for propulsion, they need to put about all
>> that power into 150 square meters at 20 MW/m^2.  That's a little over
>> 12 meters across.
>
> That's "strategic" in modern military parlance.  You're
> hitting an entire building, not a person or vehicle.
> This is trivially defeated by colocating the target with
> civilian infrastructure, which infrastructure is an
> unacceptable target (to most modern Western
> militaries, anyway).
>
> Besides, they already have ample and sufficient
> weapons to take out targets of that size - and more
> controllable, too.  A missile can be pulled off if it is
> realized after the shot that the target is incorrect.

For the kind of missiles using on drones, I don't think that is the
case.  But I am not sure.

> A laser - once you pull the trigger, that's it.
>
>>> What about using shorter wavelengths, such as visible light?
>>
>> Then a cloud cuts off the power.  It's part of the reason we start the
>> laser propulsion above 10 km, to get over the clouds.
>
> I'm talking about for prototypes and bootstrapping,
> where intermittent interruption by clouds is acceptable.
> You're not going to have need or even much use for
> launch power 24/7 until way down the line, when you
> have enough capital that you're manufacturing sats
> like crazy.  (Remember, the satellites themselves
> cost a lot of money, beyond their launch costs.

In this model, about twice the lift cost.

> Unless you have them manufactured on the Moon -
> and let's assume fully automated manufacture so we
> can handwave ongoing labor costs - but then, the
> tough part becomes getting the infrastructure up there
> first.)
>
>>>>>>>> I am mainly interested in making a case that there *is* a way out of
>>>>>>>> the energy/carbon problems without an 80% die off.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The theoretical case has long been made.  The challenge now
>>>>>>> is the litmus test: actually doing it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That's news to me.  Where?
>>>>>
>>>>> The theoretical case having been made?  Here, for one.
>>>>> This very list.
>>>>
>>>> I don't remember such discussion.
>>>
>>> And how long have you been on this list?
>>
>> Off an on since 1989.
>
> You must have been off every time the case was made,
> then.

Other than this as yet unvetted proposal, I don't recall any such case
to solve energy problems being made.  And you have yet to point to a
specific past discussion.

>>> Ways to save the world without a massive dieoff are
>>> discussed not infrequently.  Maybe not any specific
>>> proposal or case, but the general discussion has
>>> long since chased away any presumption that we
>>> must necessarily fail and that humanity is doomed.
>>
>> Well, this is one specific proposal.  There is no certainty that I got
>> either the assumptions or the spreadsheet formulas right though.
>
> Yes, but you said you wanted to make the case that
> there is at least one way.  That case has already been
> made in general.  What you're actually talking about
> is your specific proposal, so you need to be clearer
> about your intent.
>
> You need to be clearer to yourself, first and foremost,
> as to why you're doing this.  That will help you make
> your case better.

I thought I stated it clearly.

>>> I meant that I didn't understand *that* the rest of the cost was
>>> generation equipment.
>>
>> OK.  The rough cost breakdown is in the paper.
>
> That's the one you haven't sent?

I don't recall your asking for it.  Taking this as a request, will
send the current draft.

> Or did you mean the
> Boeing one, which I reject as an unreliable data source
> since they have a history of invalid (and often
> cost-inflated) data for this sort of thing.

Boeing is well aware, and has been since the 70s, that for them to get
any income from such a project they have to make an economic case.  I
would expect underestimation rather than cost-inflated from them.

>>>> You could pack a few mW of microwave transmitter into a CubSat.
>>>>
>>>> Why bother when there are communication satellites pouring down as
>>>> much as ten kW of microwaves?
>>>
>>> Because you don't have the money to put up a big enough
>>> satellite to pour down 10 kW, but you might have enough for
>>> a CubeSat.  And because there are concerns other than
>>> just "can it be done in theory" that you must demonstrate.
>>
>> The communication satellites are already up there pouring down kWs of
>> power.  Why do I need to put up a mW cube sat when they are already
>> doing the same thing at orders of magnitude more power?
>
> Because there are concerns other than
> just "can it be done in theory" that you must demonstrate.
> The biggest one: can *YOU* do it?

No.

> Can you, personally, get
> all the pieces together, make it fly, get some - any - amount
> of power, and thus show that you have indeed solved all the
> challenges?

Personally?  Not a chance.

>  (All the analysis in the world might miss some
> physics objections; actually doing it will automatically do
> it.)
>
> Put another way: why do you believe that the fact that
> other people have put up comsats pouring down KW
> of power for communication, will convince anyone that
> you, personally, have the know-how and ability (if funded)
> to put up satellites that would pour down any amount of
> power for a different use (power itself)?

The existence of communication satellites shows that a lot of the
physics questions have been answered.

>> The hard part is not the power satellite design or getting the power
>> down.  That's been understood for decades, Boeing had a $10 M plus
>> contract to do so back in the late 70s plus they spent a *lot* of
>> their own money on it and still have enough interest to send people to
>> conferences.
>
> Perhaps it wouldn't be hard for Boeing.  But we're not
> talking about Boeing.  We're talking about you.
>
>> The hard part is getting the cost of lifting hundreds of thousands of
>> tons of parts to GEO down to where power sats make economic sense.
>> Laser propulsion is the way to go.  That's only recently become
>> possible with large versions of the tiny laser diodes in CD player.
>
> Right.  So, how are you going to show people that you
> can do this?

Me personally? No way.

>> No sane investor is going to put me in charge of spending the national
>> budget of a fair sized country for ten years.  And putting up a
>> CubeSat would not affect that fact one iota.
>
> By itself, perhaps not.  But putting up a CubeSat would
> justify putting you in charge of something larger.  And
> if that works, larger still.
>
> And that's *how* people eventually wind up in charge
> of budgets like that: they worked their way up.

Ah, even if I wanted to be in charge of this, how many years would it take?

>> This is about a
>> *concept* for how to get the cost to GEO down.  I don't even have an
>> IP interest in it because (for various reasons) I have been doing this
>> work open source.  The idea, meme if you want, stands or falls without
>> me.
>
> Then your work is in vain.  If there's no chance that
> anyone will ever bend metal to your design, be inspired
> by it, or any other concrete result, you may as well have
> done nothing.

Other than try to hang the ideas together into a mutually supporting
business framework, this is not work I originated.  Power satellites
were invented by Peter Glaser, Skylon by Alan Bond, Richard Varvill
and the rest of the people at Reaction Engines.  The beamed energy
propulsion work was done by Jordin Kare and Kevin Parkins.

> I speak from experience.  I have multiple patents for
> various systems, and I now and then try to get others
> to build them - see what it would take.

I too have a list of patents.  One of them made other people a lot of money.

>  If I just made
> the design and left it there, not seeking to get it to
> those who could make it real, it would have been a
> wasted effort.  (As it happens, I have yet to get some
> of the designs to said people, so those efforts have
> yet to bear fruit.  Others have born fruit, and it was
> excellent.  But that never would have happened had I
> paid no attention to the intermediate phases of how
> to make the ideas real.)
>
>>> If a single CubeSat can get a few mW down to the ground,
>>> what kind of thrust could you get on a 1-mg launch vehicle?
>>
>> It's easy enough to calculate.
>>
>> One mw is one mJ/s.  100% applied to one mg it would generate
>> acceleration at one meter/sec, which is about 10% of what you need
>> just to overcome gravity.
>
> So you could launch a 1 mg vehicle with about 50 mW, then,
> assuming 20% efficiency?

No.  Scaling problems.

>> But a CubeSat would be hard pressed to put out a mW.
>
> CubeSats - if dedicated mostly to solar panels and
> transmitter - can pull in and put out a few Ws.  For
> example:
> http://www.clyde-space.com/cubesat_shop/solar_panels/1u_solar_panels/50_1u-cubesat-side-solar-panel
>
>> And that mW
>> could not be focused by something that small so the energy would go
>> more or less uniformly over the entire space.
>
> Orbit-to-ground laser communicators are being
> investigated for CubeSats.  Last I heard, 1 W of
> power at the source results in some number of
> mW power of signal received.  One could simply
> not bother to encode a signal, and instead use it
> for power directly.  I forget whether they're using
> visual, microwave, or another frequency, but the
> receivers are less than a meter across.

I don't have an idea of why you want me to work on CubeSats, but the
scaling is akin to launching a multi ton comm sat with Estes rockets.

snip

From: John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com>

> Thanks for the news flash. I could be wrong but I'm guessing that Fast
> breeders are faster than slow breeders. Am I correct?

Fast breeders use unmoderated, i.e., use fast neutrons.  Permits
fission of U238 in some cases.  That's how a fission-fusion-fission
bomb works.

Keith



From eugen at leitl.org  Sat Aug  4 20:09:18 2012
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2012 22:09:18 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Written for another list
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On Sat, Aug 04, 2012 at 01:49:39PM -0400, John Clark wrote:

> You always need U-235 or some other neutron source to get the ball rolling
> to produce some initial U-233 for ANY Thorium reactor, but after that it's
> no longer necessary and its on its own.

Of course, that's the theory. In practice you're looking at breeding
factor issues, and bootstrap issues, which clamp down on your growth
kinetics, and hence scaling over time.
 
The large stockpile of Pu-239 is actually your best chance to bootstrap.
Good riddance to bad rubbish.
 
> > Again, the only interesting part of LFTR *concept* is in that it's a
> > molten salt fast or slow breeder based
> > on the thorium fuel cycle.
> 
> 
> LFTR is different from all other fission reactors in 2 ways:
> 
> 1) It uses Thorium as fuel.
> 2) It uses a liquid not a solid fuel.

Yes, I'm quite aware.
 
> > Because we know that uranium cycle fast breeders are impractical.
> >
> 
> I too think Uranium breeders suck.

Didn't expect to hear that from you, but we're distinctly on the same page here.
 
> 
> > > The *concept* has never been validated in all aspects of practical
> > operation
> 
> 
> True nobody has yet made a operational LFTR power plant yet, maybe because
> after a very promising start with a reactor that produced millions of watts
> of power nobody has spent a nickle on the idea in nearly 45 years.

Not quite. The Germans did have the THTR, but apart from being not a breeder
it had too many problems, so they killed it. Canada and India (and a few lesser
countries) are still working on the thorium fuel cycle, so zero budget doesn't 
quite fit.

> Meanwhile tens of billions of dollars have been spent on fusion reactors
> and even today they have yet to output one more watt of power than they
> input. Something is badly out of balance.

I agree! Fusion, particularly Tokamak fusion is making fast breeder
power look like a bargain, by a factor of 100 at least. Throwing good
money after bad on ITER is not very sane. I reserve some judgement on
inertial confinement/laser ignition, but it's probably not going to
work out either (fusion must be a fertile breeder, too).
 
> > we have dozens of *proven* solutions which need to be rolled out on a
> > very wide scale
> 
> 
> Proven?  You can't be talking about wind power or tidal power or solar or
> bio-fuel or geothermal or fusion or power satellites. So what are you
> talking about?

Synfuels, nitrogen fixation at mild conditions, low-temperature
long-lived fuel cells from abundant materials.
 
> > which unfortunately have no vocal supporters.
> 
> 
> They have lots of very vocal supporters in Washington, they're called
> "lobbyist". Nobody would dream of building a wind farm if the government
> didn't bribe companies to do so because it's just not practical otherwise.

You'll see that at least China is converting their coal to synfuels,
with the option to drive the facilities from renewable power and hydrogen
from water electrolysis later.
 
> > Nor absolutely vital parts of R&Dthat absolutely, positively need to be
> > done, now on an emergency schedule (because they were not done in the last
> > 40 years
> >
> 
> What are you talking about?? In the last 40 years billions of dollars of
> R&D money have been spent on all the "green and renewable" energy sources I
> mentioned above (except power satellites), and none of them amount to a
> bucket of warm spit, meanwhile the amount spent on LFTR research is zero.

If I had to spend money now, I would look at nitrogen fixation at
close to RT conditions and methanol synthesis and methane synthesis
and methane fuel cells. As well as MWh scale electrochemical storage
based on cheap and abundant chemistries, like sodium, potassium,
magnesium, molten salt, sulfur, etc.

You'll find that not much money has been spent on above so far,
and right now few people are working on it, and that not a lot
of talent in that area are at all available. This is not a happy
combination.
 
> > This is the part that makes me stock up on popcorn.
> >
> 
> Yes, we may live in interesting times because 7 billion large mammals
> called human beings want to have a a good standard of living and they can't

The 100 TW figures is based on US-level consumption, which might appear
silly, until you factor in that you'll need to compensate for ecosystem
degradation, which needs a lot of energy to be thrown at to compensate
for. So I would actually use 100 TW by 2050 as a ballpart figure to aim
form.

> do that from the energy produced by moonbeams and hummingbirds despite the
> insistence of environmentalists. This is serious business because if they
> can't live well a sizable portion of that 7 billion are going to get mad.

First mad, then dead.

> So you shouldn't automatically reject a possible solution just because it
> has the word "nuclear" in it.

You will find me amazingly open-minded. Also, extremely realist.
 
> > You're a strange man, John.
> >
> 
> I've been told that before.

It can be a compliment.


From atymes at gmail.com  Sat Aug  4 19:36:23 2012
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2012 12:36:23 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Written for another list
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB45Vb9Ue04inBuwi7HzCT=sx=vj2iQfzJPeFif+Rtn06g@mail.gmail.com>
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On Sat, Aug 4, 2012 at 10:30 AM, Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> wrote:
> You asked how I calculated what the first power sat was worth powering
> propulsion lasers vs selling the power.

Yes.  And as noted, I see that you calculated this
using false assumptions.

>>> You need a minimum induced voltage on the rectenna
>>> diodes for them to forward conduct.
>>
>> Watts are not a measure of voltage.  Volts are voltage.
>> The minimum voltage can be induced for a power less
>> than MW, possibly sub-W.
>
> Schottky diodes have a forward voltage drop between approximately
> 0.15?0.45 volts.  For voltage levels below where they start to
> conduct, you don't get output at all from a rectenna.  Normal
> operation of a rectenna is around 1/4 kW/m^2  At 25 diodes per m^2,
> 250 W/25 is ten W/diode.  Assuming an antenna equivalent of 50 ohms,
> the induced voltage across a diode would be V^2 =10*50.  Or 22.4
> volts, plenty to put the diode in forward conduction.  Keep the
> geometry the same and drop the power to 0.5 MW.  Now we are down to 1
> mW/diode and V^2 = 0.01*50, or 0.22 volts.  No output.

Use less diodes per m^2, or assume more ohms.  Or just use
less m^2: at 1 m^2, that's 1/4 kW, which is less than MW.
Even 1,000 m^2 is only 250 kW.  But less diodes per m^2 is
probably the easiest solution, if you're designing for low power.

>>> 50 MW is 1/100 of 5000 MW.  So
>>> the ground antenna would need to be one km across and the antenna in
>>> space 10 km in diameter and would cost 100 times as much as a
>>> transmitter for a 5 GW unit.
>>
>> How does the fact that you're transmitting less power
>> translate into requiring a larger antenna?  Unless
>> you're basing off the minimum - in which case, you
>> need to show why the minimum is so gigantic.
>
> Microwave optics.  It's what drives power sats to such large sizes.

So again: use visible wavelengths.  Or perhaps masers,
to reduce divergence.

But how does transmitting *less* power require a *larger*
antenna?  Microwave optics does not require this.

> Other than this as yet unvetted proposal, I don't recall any such case
> to solve energy problems being made.  And you have yet to point to a
> specific past discussion.

Would you call your proposal vetted?

I do not have the complete archive of this chat on hand.
Rather, it is the nature of this chat that such discussions
happen.  If you want a specific one, would some list
member who is more familiar with the archives care to
point out other energy discussions that have happened
on this list?

>> You need to be clearer to yourself, first and foremost,
>> as to why you're doing this.  That will help you make
>> your case better.
>
> I thought I stated it clearly.

Are you just trying to make a theoretical case, or is this
something you want to actually make happen?  There is
a big difference between the two.

>>> OK.  The rough cost breakdown is in the paper.
>>
>> That's the one you haven't sent?
>
> I don't recall your asking for it.  Taking this as a request, will
> send the current draft.

Yes, please.

>> Or did you mean the
>> Boeing one, which I reject as an unreliable data source
>> since they have a history of invalid (and often
>> cost-inflated) data for this sort of thing.
>
> Boeing is well aware, and has been since the 70s, that for them to get
> any income from such a project they have to make an economic case.  I
> would expect underestimation rather than cost-inflated from them.

That's not how they work government space contracts.
Most such contracts are one-off, so they try to jam in
any cost-inflators they can get away with.  The whole
concept of off-the-shelf, truly large numbers of flights,
and such tricks that even airplane manufacture (let
alone autos & other consumer goods) have used to
lower costs is anathema to their approach.

> The existence of communication satellites shows that a lot of the
> physics questions have been answered.

Ah.  Then you are just making the theoretical case,
and to hell with the economics of how you would
actually get it working.

Okay, case made.  Now what?

> Ah, even if I wanted to be in charge of this, how many years would it take?

Something like this is going to take decades to
put into operation no matter who is in charge of it.
The question is, how many?

To answer that, you need to actually get into the
economics of how to bootstrap it, and the step by
step details of how the project could be realized.
You can't just assume $B of funding from the
get-go, because no funding agency - not even the
US government - works that way.  You start with
small scale technical demonstrators, then work
your way up.

If you really think the US government would just
pony up lots of money for this tomorrow, I advise
you to read up on Technology Readiness Levels
and how technologies go from low TRLs to high
TRLs.  All this stuff I've been saying about
bootstrapping and demonstrating?  That is in
fact a necessary prerequisite to getting the
money to build and launch the first multi-GW
powersat.  Just because these details are not
physical or technical does not make them any
less real, nor does it mean they can be
dismissed if you truly wish to make the case
that this can be done - because if there is, in
fact, no path to the destination, then the
destination can not be reached, whether or not
the destination exists.



From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Sat Aug  4 22:23:45 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2012 00:23:45 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Written for another list
In-Reply-To: <20120804200918.GT12615@leitl.org>
References: <20120802194129.GX12615@leitl.org>
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 <20120803164856.GZ12615@leitl.org>
 <CAJPayv2Ru3KzCmKJJKrVaiehSRdrZhG=DGdK5bThm2F0_7B-KQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120803211304.GD12615@leitl.org>
 <CAJPayv0tHceHSpLtQBubdAcZCzJ5+MGZM0a2TeO2wpJzCdTtpw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120804091023.GH12615@leitl.org>
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Message-ID: <CAPoR7a5xha3hCYFDX6T20nyiFb6eZp4V5jr=Pm1ge-swJc9Kdg@mail.gmail.com>

On 4 August 2012 22:09, Eugen Leitl <eugen at leitl.org> wrote:

> I agree! Fusion, particularly Tokamak fusion is making fast breeder
> power look like a bargain, by a factor of 100 at least. Throwing good
> money after bad on ITER is not very sane. I reserve some judgement on
> inertial confinement/laser ignition, but it's probably not going to
> work out either (fusion must be a fertile breeder, too).
>

I may be "ideologically" biaised in favour of fusion, but how could it
*not* work?

I mean, the physics behind it is clear enough, we have large-scale examples
of working fusion before our eyes every time the sun rises, and it is hard
to see what could prevent a solution of the related engineering probs.

And, hey, a puny 10-billion dollars have been spent on the half-hearted,
never-meant-to-be-the-real-thing ITER experimental reactor by a consortium
of *a dozen* countries while the US alone spent some 80 times more for the
oil war in Iraq.

What is the worse bet in the mid-term? What could be achieved with a
Manhattan-project kind of push?

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From eugen at leitl.org  Sun Aug  5 08:59:56 2012
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2012 10:59:56 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Written for another list
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Message-ID: <20120805085956.GW12615@leitl.org>

On Sun, Aug 05, 2012 at 12:23:45AM +0200, Stefano Vaj wrote:
> On 4 August 2012 22:09, Eugen Leitl <eugen at leitl.org> wrote:
> 
> > I agree! Fusion, particularly Tokamak fusion is making fast breeder
> > power look like a bargain, by a factor of 100 at least. Throwing good
> > money after bad on ITER is not very sane. I reserve some judgement on
> > inertial confinement/laser ignition, but it's probably not going to
> > work out either (fusion must be a fertile breeder, too).
> >
> 
> I may be "ideologically" biaised in favour of fusion, but how could it
> *not* work?

How doesn't fission work? By virtue of being uneconomic, and 
unsustainable (because you can't make breeders work). It can't
compete with renewable, which is a direct or indirect 
product of hydrogen fusion in the Sun.

Now think of an energy source that's two orders of magnitude
more expensive, and probably not sustainable either (because
breeding factor for tritium in the lithium blanket don't look
too hot). Which is competing against a far more economic
form of fusion, even with wireless delivery.
 
> I mean, the physics behind it is clear enough, we have large-scale examples
> of working fusion before our eyes every time the sun rises, and it is hard

Gravitational containment works. Magnetic containment doesn't work
really well. Inertial confinement might work, but the economics
of it are quite iffy. I'm definitely down on tokamaks, though.

> to see what could prevent a solution of the related engineering probs.

It's not hard to see at all. It's extremely challenging, while
we have a working, scalable solid state source that's racing down
to beat the pants off dirty coal (and there is no longer any
cheap, abundant dirty coal).

How do you compete against that? You can't.
 
> And, hey, a puny 10-billion dollars have been spent on the half-hearted,

We don't have any money. We must raise trillions annually world
wide to prevent

http://gizmodo.com/5898896/1970s-study-predictions-are-still-on-target-for-2030s-decline-of-humanity

Do we have what it takes? So why are we not doing it?

> never-meant-to-be-the-real-thing ITER experimental reactor by a consortium
> of *a dozen* countries while the US alone spent some 80 times more for the
> oil war in Iraq.

This is in the past, and a little bird told me that will
be over soon. Out of budget.
 
> What is the worse bet in the mid-term? What could be achieved with a
> Manhattan-project kind of push?

Manhattan was 0.4% of GDP during peak, Apollo was 0.4%.
Right now you probably need at least 3% of world GDP
for the next 40 years (this is a WAG, it could be up
to 10%). World GDP is some 70 TUSD. So we need to
spend somewhere between 2-7 TUSD/year for the next
40 years.

As a quick check, we need about TW/year substitution
rate. That's some 3-4 TWp in terms of solar. As large
scale solar is or going to be 1 USD/Wp, that looks to
be on the low side, as missing synfuels, synthons, 
desalination, and fixing food in general.

Yep, we're fucked.



From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Sun Aug  5 13:41:06 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2012 15:41:06 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Written for another list
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Message-ID: <CAPoR7a6VWf4r3TedXbb7P5442=tOUQ-J1J8spPnOaTrJHh-mFQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 5 August 2012 10:59, Eugen Leitl <eugen at leitl.org> wrote:

> > never-meant-to-be-the-real-thing ITER experimental reactor by a
> consortium
> > of *a dozen* countries while the US alone spent some 80 times more for
> the
> > oil war in Iraq.
>
> This is in the past, and a little bird told me that will
> be over soon. Out of budget.
>

ITER or the Iraqi war? Never knew they had a limited budget for the
latter... :-)


>  > What is the worse bet in the mid-term? What could be achieved with a
> > Manhattan-project kind of push?
>
> Manhattan was 0.4% of GDP during peak, Apollo was 0.4%.
>

Just for the sake of argument: the push towards "renewable" energies comes
from a deliberate alteration of the energy economics, without which we
would be happiliy sailing towards oil peak etc. without even a second
thought about using the sun for anything else than dry our laundry.

OTOH, you say that the real, or at least a main, objection to investments
in fusion energy is that it would not be economically competitive. Why
couldn't we be doing just the same as we did for solar, if we were
persuaded that this is the way to go?

I understand in this respect that, even for tokamaks, if and when DEMO were
completed  subsequent reactors would cost just just 25% of it.

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Sun Aug  5 16:26:24 2012
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2012 09:26:24 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Written for another list
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB4V87-+Zoo+Dwb=-KZC=WH6hCny70gn1m3gzpVhR6ZOUg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Aug 5, 2012 at 5:00 AM,  Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sat, Aug 4, 2012 at 10:30 AM, Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> wrote:
>> You asked how I calculated what the first power sat was worth powering
>> propulsion lasers vs selling the power.
>
> Yes.  And as noted, I see that you calculated this
> using false assumptions.

OK.  Compared to selling the power on earth, what is the same power
used for propulsion lasers worth?  You now have the paper and if you
need the economic spreadsheet, ask for it.

snip

>> Schottky diodes have a forward voltage drop between approximately
>> 0.15?0.45 volts.  For voltage levels below where they start to
>> conduct, you don't get output at all from a rectenna.  Normal
>> operation of a rectenna is around 1/4 kW/m^2  At 25 diodes per m^2,
>> 250 W/25 is ten W/diode.  Assuming an antenna equivalent of 50 ohms,
>> the induced voltage across a diode would be V^2 =10*50.  Or 22.4
>> volts, plenty to put the diode in forward conduction.  Keep the
>> geometry the same and drop the power to 0.5 MW.  Now we are down to 1
>> mW/diode and V^2 = 0.01*50, or 0.22 volts.  No output.
>
> Use less diodes per m^2,

That might be possible, using an expensive horn antenna with one diode
down deep in the horn.  It's been close to 50 years since I had a
microwave antenna theory class so I am not sure.

> or assume more ohms.

Now, that you can't do.  The impedance of an antenna is fixed by physics.

> Or just use
> less m^2: at 1 m^2, that's 1/4 kW, which is less than MW.
> Even 1,000 m^2 is only 250 kW.  But less diodes per m^2 is
> probably the easiest solution, if you're designing for low power.

That means focusing the microwave beam into a tighter spot.  Which
means a larger transmitting antenna in space.

snip

>> Microwave optics.  It's what drives power sats to such large sizes.
>
> So again: use visible wavelengths.  Or perhaps masers,
> to reduce divergence.

Visible gets interrupted by clouds so it has the same storage problem
as solar PV.  How does a maser reduce divergence over a phased array?

snip

>> Other than this as yet unvetted proposal, I don't recall any such case
>> to solve energy problems being made.  And you have yet to point to a
>> specific past discussion.
>
> Would you call your proposal vetted?

No.

> I do not have the complete archive of this chat on hand.
> Rather, it is the nature of this chat that such discussions
> happen.  If you want a specific one, would some list
> member who is more familiar with the archives care to
> point out other energy discussions that have happened
> on this list?
>
>>> You need to be clearer to yourself, first and foremost,
>>> as to why you're doing this.  That will help you make
>>> your case better.
>>
>> I thought I stated it clearly.
>
> Are you just trying to make a theoretical case, or is this
> something you want to actually make happen?  There is
> a big difference between the two.

True.  Let's be generous and say I have put in $150,000 of time on
this over the past 7 years (with a year off for jail and related court
stuff).  If the project takes 150 B, that's a factor of a million
higher.

snip

>> The existence of communication satellites shows that a lot of the
>> physics questions have been answered.
>
> Ah.  Then you are just making the theoretical case,
> and to hell with the economics of how you would
> actually get it working.
>
> Okay, case made.  Now what?

The point, in case you missed it is that I don't need to put up a
cubesat to make the case that microwaves can be generated in space and
sent to the earth.

As for economics, showing how to get the cost down is the main point
of the work I have done.

You really don't need to be nasty.

>> Ah, even if I wanted to be in charge of this, how many years would it take?
>
> Something like this is going to take decades

I am 70.  Unless you are counting on serious life extension, I am not
the right person on that fact alone.

> to
> put into operation no matter who is in charge of it.
> The question is, how many?
>
> To answer that, you need to actually get into the
> economics of how to bootstrap it, and the step by
> step details of how the project could be realized.
> You can't just assume $B of funding from the
> get-go, because no funding agency - not even the
> US government - works that way.

I am not expecting the US to be involved.

> You start with
> small scale technical demonstrators, then work
> your way up.

There will be such done on the way to power sats, but they just don't
scale so to make money on the project you have to finish a very large
minimum set of infrastructure.

> If you really think the US government would just
> pony up lots of money for this tomorrow, I advise
> you to read up on Technology Readiness Levels
> and how technologies go from low TRLs to high
> TRLs.  All this stuff I've been saying about
> bootstrapping and demonstrating?  That is in
> fact a necessary prerequisite to getting the
> money to build and launch the first multi-GW
> powersat.  Just because these details are not
> physical or technical does not make them any
> less real, nor does it mean they can be
> dismissed if you truly wish to make the case
> that this can be done - because if there is, in
> fact, no path to the destination, then the
> destination can not be reached, whether or not
> the destination exists.

You are more likely to be correct about this than I am.  It is, after
all, easier not to do something than to do it.

However, the consequences of not doing something to solve energy and
carbon problems are dire.

If you have a better idea, please share it.

Keith


From atymes at gmail.com  Sun Aug  5 17:32:43 2012
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2012 10:32:43 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Written for another list
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB4V87-+Zoo+Dwb=-KZC=WH6hCny70gn1m3gzpVhR6ZOUg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB4V87-+Zoo+Dwb=-KZC=WH6hCny70gn1m3gzpVhR6ZOUg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNS78Tj1iD0+yKtr=W-gm4Z6N8KDC7aAr99_pWY2Uzf4hQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Aug 5, 2012 at 9:26 AM, Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, Aug 5, 2012 at 5:00 AM,  Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Sat, Aug 4, 2012 at 10:30 AM, Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> You asked how I calculated what the first power sat was worth powering
>>> propulsion lasers vs selling the power.
>>
>> Yes.  And as noted, I see that you calculated this
>> using false assumptions.
>
> OK.  Compared to selling the power on earth, what is the same power
> used for propulsion lasers worth?

By itself?  $0.

It only becomes worth something when paired with the
launch vehicle & service, at which point the worth of the
power becomes inextricable from the overall worth of the
launch - save as a cost line item.

The cost line item can be $0 (since you already own all
the infrastructure and you're not paying anyone else to
use it), or at most, the opportunity cost of not selling it
as electricity (exactly equal to the market cost of
electricity, by definition).

>> Use less diodes per m^2,
>
> That might be possible, using an expensive horn antenna with one diode
> down deep in the horn.  It's been close to 50 years since I had a
> microwave antenna theory class so I am not sure.

Why would it need to be expensive?

>> or assume more ohms.
>
> Now, that you can't do.  The impedance of an antenna is fixed by physics.

Of any given antenna, yes, but you can change the antenna.
The impedance is best matched to the impedance of the line
carrying signal to/from the antenna.  V = IR, we have a minimum
V, and R is a function of materials.  So use better conductors =
less R = more I for the line, and then configure the antenna to
match the line's I.

Materials science might not quite be advancing at Moore's Law's
pace, but it is getting better.

For instance - and standing outside the general thrust of "how
do we do this at first" - what about tapping part of the power
for cryogenics, enough to make the antenna from
"high-temperature" (but still sub-room-temperature)
superconductors?  What would 0 resistance enable?

>> Or just use
>> less m^2: at 1 m^2, that's 1/4 kW, which is less than MW.
>> Even 1,000 m^2 is only 250 kW.  But less diodes per m^2 is
>> probably the easiest solution, if you're designing for low power.
>
> That means focusing the microwave beam into a tighter spot.  Which
> means a larger transmitting antenna in space.

Or visible light, or different focusing mechanisms.

>> So again: use visible wavelengths.  Or perhaps masers,
>> to reduce divergence.
>
> Visible gets interrupted by clouds so it has the same storage problem
> as solar PV.

We're talking bootstrap phase, before you have the budget
for a large sat.  Interruption by clouds is acceptable for this
phase.

> How does a maser reduce divergence over a phased array?

Smaller beam waist = smaller footprint.

>> Are you just trying to make a theoretical case, or is this
>> something you want to actually make happen?  There is
>> a big difference between the two.
>
> True.  Let's be generous and say I have put in $150,000 of time on
> this over the past 7 years (with a year off for jail and related court
> stuff).  If the project takes 150 B, that's a factor of a million
> higher.

That didn't answer my question.  Are you just trying to make
a theoretical case, or is this something you want to actually
make happen?  People can and do spend huge amounts of
time into just making theoretical cases, so that you have put
much time into it could support either answer.

If you're just making the case, do you just want to argue that
it is physically and technically possible given an infinite budget,
or do you want to make the case that it is economically
feasible too?  In the latter case, you can not ignore startup
costs and making a plan for how to bootstrap up to having
multi-GW microwave powersats.  Yes, it's fine to have that as
a goal, but to make the case, you have to show how we can
get there, and "assume a huge investment before the specific
organization putting the sats up has shown it can put lesser
powersats up with a lesser budget" is as much of a nonstarter
as "assume gravity stops for an hour".

> The point, in case you missed it is that I don't need to put up a
> cubesat to make the case that microwaves can be generated in space and
> sent to the earth.

That's not the point.

The point is to show that *you*, or whichever organization is
doing this, can assemble, install, and operate the infrastructure.
This is required before said organization can acquire a large
investment.

For the kind of investment an organization can get before that
step...well, it can put a cubesat into LEO, and a cheap antenna
that the sat only hits when over the horizon (and perhaps using
visible light, so it's further limited to when it's not cloudy).

> As for economics, showing how to get the cost down is the main point
> of the work I have done.
>
> You really don't need to be nasty.

I do if it's the only way to get across that, despite your claim
that you're doing this for the economics, you're being
aggressively naive about economic basics.

>> You start with
>> small scale technical demonstrators, then work
>> your way up.
>
> There will be such done on the way to power sats, but they just don't
> scale so to make money on the project you have to finish a very large
> minimum set of infrastructure.

You don't have to make money at first.  At first you just have
to demonstrate that you are capable of doing what you say
you want to do.  That is how you attract investment to get
that minimum infrastructure to be profitable.


From johnkclark at gmail.com  Sun Aug  5 17:48:22 2012
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2012 13:48:22 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Written for another list
In-Reply-To: <20120804200918.GT12615@leitl.org>
References: <20120802194129.GX12615@leitl.org>
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 <CAJPayv0FuhTJq7LGcEBmrMWjEUPkcfAf-gF-7=hLZzVSex8+Ag@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120804200918.GT12615@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv3VCGhDcLwFkot0kBSgnNqaiuOuUSbisue4tXKcYv2tqg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Aug 4, 2012  Eugen Leitl <eugen at leitl.org> wrote:


> > The large stockpile of Pu-239 is actually your best chance to bootstrap.
> Good riddance to bad rubbish.
>

Yes, a LFTR might be able to harmlessly burn up Plutonium and other
radioactive crap, and that's better than just trying to find a place to
hide it away.

> > I too think Uranium breeders suck.
>>
>
> > Didn't expect to hear that from you, but we're distinctly on the same
> page here.
>

I even think regular Uranium reactors suck, at least the big ones in power
plants, maybe not as much as breeders but they still suck. But a LFTR is
not just a slight modification it is RADICALLY different from anything that
exists today and that's the problem. Nuclear technology is moribund and its
bureaucracy is as cumbersome as anything in the western world, even getting
a new reactor built with conventional design would be virtually impossible,
trying something entirely new like a LFTR would be impossibility squared.
And the electric utilities that run the plants have no reason to chage,
they're accustomed to pressurized water power plants, and because of
government subsidies they typically pay more for security guards than the
Uranium fuel that powers the whole thing.

Meanwhile the environmentalists keep telling us how dreadful global warming
will be, but apparently not dreadful enough to even consider something like
a LFTR even though it produces no greenhouse gasses because it involves the
"N" word. So they just keep dreaming about powering civilization with
butterflies.

> The Germans did have the THTR, but apart from being not a breeder it had
> too many problems, so they killed it.


Yeah and the THTR was very modern by reactor standards, it was shut down
only 23 years ago during the Chernobyl panic;  but just like virtually all
reactors made during the last half century it used solid fuel. The fact is
that no molten salt reactor, not even a small experimental one, has existed
on planet Earth since 1969, and I find that as astonishing as it is
inexcusable.

> Canada and India (and a few lesser countries) are still working on the
> thorium fuel cycle,


And they're using solid nuclear fuel too, you'd think we'd have learned by
now that's not a good idea.

> Fusion, particularly Tokamak fusion is making fast breeder power look
> like a bargain, by a factor of 100 at least. Throwing good money after bad
> on ITER is not very sane.


Yeah, I'm not holding my breath but I'd be delighted if both of us turn out
to be wrong about that; and they'll probably get some good science out of
it even if they don't get any energy out of it.

> I reserve some judgement on inertial confinement/laser ignition, but it's
> probably not going to
> work out either


I hope the name of the place "The National IGNITION  Facility" turns out to
be appropriate but it never would have been built without support from the
military, since testing H-bombs is frowned upon the only way to know what
happens when one goes off is supercomputers or a super powerful LASER, and
now they have both. Oh well, it'll probably help us understand how
supernovas and Gamma Ray Bursters work.

> You'll see that at least China is converting their coal to synfuels,
>

The Nazi's did that 70 years ago and it powered their war machine, it
wasn't green energy then and it isn't now.

> If I had to spend money now, I would look at nitrogen fixation at close
> to RT conditions and methanol synthesis and methane synthesis and methane
> fuel cells. As well as MWh scale electrochemical storage
>

Can you visualize powering the blast furnace in a  steel mill with
something as dilute as solar energy, or with batteries, or windmills? I
can't, but I can see a conventional nuclear power plant doing so although I
don't like them very much, and Uranium breeders really give me the creeps;
so it's time to investigate LFTR's, we should have done it 40 years ago.

  John K Clark
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From cvanderwall14 at gmail.com  Thu Aug  2 15:34:46 2012
From: cvanderwall14 at gmail.com (Christian Vanderwall)
Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2012 08:34:46 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Welcome to the Future
In-Reply-To: <CAPoR7a65OVxQ-R-RvbiUL54tXRtMERPeaDCcbyr-RT-gLmiP2w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <201207312034.q6VKY14V026231@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <CAJX-7wVfAiVgfVydSHaTSZWQuBbx=VTGM-MfVahkNmKTFBHxZw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armhtofXyO8mO1HzMX-Xk3wYc6+=Y5gvsbj8nUE3zDhbP+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a65OVxQ-R-RvbiUL54tXRtMERPeaDCcbyr-RT-gLmiP2w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPHAwR=FUO3ZQgRaw9duuhqQcx_m_UnmvZ5-Zn4vTRMSqJPX8Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Aug 2, 2012 at 5:09 AM, Stefano Vaj <stefano.vaj at gmail.com> wrote:

>
> So, yes, the mass movement we need is of a philosophical, cultural and
> political nature. While technology may influence society, is (a certain
> kind of) society that makes technology happen.
>
>
Or perhaps all we need are gamers.  The Oculus Rift (
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1523379957/oculus-rift-step-into-the-game)
is a great example of how people are pushing the limits of virtual reality
technology in the pursuit of fun.      In the years to come, people will
begin to spend more and more time playing virtual reality games.  As the
quality of these games improves, some people (most in my opinion) will come
to the realization that virtual reality is much more enjoyable than our
current reality and will begin a push to integrate themselves into the
virtual world(s) more permanently.

-Christian
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From eugen at leitl.org  Mon Aug  6 08:20:53 2012
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2012 10:20:53 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Welcome to the Future
In-Reply-To: <CAPHAwR=FUO3ZQgRaw9duuhqQcx_m_UnmvZ5-Zn4vTRMSqJPX8Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <201207312034.q6VKY14V026231@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <CAJX-7wVfAiVgfVydSHaTSZWQuBbx=VTGM-MfVahkNmKTFBHxZw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armhtofXyO8mO1HzMX-Xk3wYc6+=Y5gvsbj8nUE3zDhbP+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a65OVxQ-R-RvbiUL54tXRtMERPeaDCcbyr-RT-gLmiP2w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPHAwR=FUO3ZQgRaw9duuhqQcx_m_UnmvZ5-Zn4vTRMSqJPX8Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120806082053.GK12615@leitl.org>

On Thu, Aug 02, 2012 at 08:34:46AM -0700, Christian Vanderwall wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 2, 2012 at 5:09 AM, Stefano Vaj <stefano.vaj at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> >
> > So, yes, the mass movement we need is of a philosophical, cultural and
> > political nature. While technology may influence society, is (a certain
> > kind of) society that makes technology happen.
> >
> >
> Or perhaps all we need are gamers.  The Oculus Rift (
> http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1523379957/oculus-rift-step-into-the-game)
> is a great example of how people are pushing the limits of virtual reality
> technology in the pursuit of fun.      In the years to come, people will

Pushing the limits of VR? This is 1990 level of technology. 
And *I still can't buy it*, in 2012. 

> begin to spend more and more time playing virtual reality games.  As the
> quality of these games improves, some people (most in my opinion) will come
> to the realization that virtual reality is much more enjoyable than our
> current reality and will begin a push to integrate themselves into the
> virtual world(s) more permanently.


From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Mon Aug  6 16:00:20 2012
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2012 09:00:20 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Written for another list
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB7EtMSDCD13vWxeNr4+BywMV_HbVCXmqs1WsG3QUPmTKA@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Aug 6, 2012 at 5:00 AM,  Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:

> From: Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com>

(snip, concede, can't argue if you think power in space is worthless.)

>>> or assume more ohms.
>>
>> Now, that you can't do.  The impedance of an antenna is fixed by physics.
>
> Of any given antenna, yes, but you can change the antenna.
> The impedance is best matched to the impedance of the line
> carrying signal to/from the antenna.  V = IR, we have a minimum
> V, and R is a function of materials.  So use better conductors =
> less R = more I for the line, and then configure the antenna to
> match the line's I.

It's not a function of the materials.  Analysis counts the conductors
as without resistance.  What's causing the voltage/current
relationship is the impedance of free space.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dipole_antenna#Half-wave_antenna

I don't know if you are old enough to remember thin net.  That was
coaxial cable that required a terminating resistor on each end.  For a
given cable geometry it required a specific resistor of a limited
range.

> Materials science might not quite be advancing at Moore's Law's
> pace, but it is getting better.
>
> For instance - and standing outside the general thrust of "how
> do we do this at first" - what about tapping part of the power
> for cryogenics, enough to make the antenna from
> "high-temperature" (but still sub-room-temperature)
> superconductors?  What would 0 resistance enable?

You can make better resonate cavities with superconductors, but you
can't change the impedance of free space one iota.  Sorry, it's built
into the universe we live in.

snip

>> How does a maser reduce divergence over a phased array?
>
> Smaller beam waist = smaller footprint.

The divergence of a beam of electromagnet energy is theta = 1.22
lamda/diameter.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airy_disk

"the angle at which the first minimum occurs (which is sometimes
described as the radius of the Airy disk) depends only on wavelength
and aperture size"

How does a maser affect this?

snip

> That didn't answer my question.  Are you just trying to make
> a theoretical case, or is this something you want to actually
> make happen?  People can and do spend huge amounts of
> time into just making theoretical cases, so that you have put
> much time into it could support either answer.
>
> If you're just making the case, do you just want to argue that
> it is physically and technically possible given an infinite budget,
> or do you want to make the case that it is economically
> feasible too?  In the latter case, you can not ignore startup
> costs and making a plan for how to bootstrap up to having
> multi-GW microwave powersats.  Yes, it's fine to have that as
> a goal, but to make the case, you have to show how we can
> get there, and "assume a huge investment before the specific
> organization putting the sats up has shown it can put lesser
> powersats up with a lesser budget" is as much of a nonstarter
> as "assume gravity stops for an hour".

Read the document I sent and see if that answers your questions.  I
would love to start this on my pocket change or even a few million.
If you have a way to modify the concept to reduce the cost, please do.

snip

Keith


From atymes at gmail.com  Mon Aug  6 16:03:47 2012
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2012 09:03:47 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Welcome to the Future
In-Reply-To: <20120806082053.GK12615@leitl.org>
References: <201207312034.q6VKY14V026231@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <CAJX-7wVfAiVgfVydSHaTSZWQuBbx=VTGM-MfVahkNmKTFBHxZw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armhtofXyO8mO1HzMX-Xk3wYc6+=Y5gvsbj8nUE3zDhbP+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a65OVxQ-R-RvbiUL54tXRtMERPeaDCcbyr-RT-gLmiP2w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPHAwR=FUO3ZQgRaw9duuhqQcx_m_UnmvZ5-Zn4vTRMSqJPX8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120806082053.GK12615@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNSwBw6g6x-B_zSXqUjBwVrZ365T1KVsfZjJ_SY0_1L=Lg@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Aug 6, 2012 at 1:20 AM, Eugen Leitl <eugen at leitl.org> wrote:
> Pushing the limits of VR? This is 1990 level of technology.
> And *I still can't buy it*, in 2012.

Well, you can, but...

As with videoconferencing, fully immersive VR is a technology
in solution of a problem, and that tends not to sell well.

What's needed are ways to apply it in ways that a lot of people
would find useful or entertaining.

Part of the problem is that full-body VR suffers from a more
extended version of the "gorilla arm" issue.  Also, how do you
use the full body as an input device?  Also also, what do you
do about lack of awareness of the real world while using your
body to manipulate things in VR?

The Kinect and similar are direct results of attempts to deal
with those issues.  Notice that they *do* sell, at least
somewhat, because they deal with the issues better than
slapping on a pair of goggles does.  Notice also that there is
a lot of experimentation going on with those platforms: it is
as yet not widely understood what they is truly good for.


From atymes at gmail.com  Mon Aug  6 22:47:14 2012
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2012 15:47:14 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Written for another list
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB7EtMSDCD13vWxeNr4+BywMV_HbVCXmqs1WsG3QUPmTKA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB7EtMSDCD13vWxeNr4+BywMV_HbVCXmqs1WsG3QUPmTKA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNTz-6xiL-jDABLtwu=DYfpDO60qmOBD6BNexuLVWfXAuw@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Aug 6, 2012 at 9:00 AM, Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> wrote:
> (snip, concede, can't argue if you think power in space is worthless.)

You misunderstand to a degree that is somewhat insulting.

You're trying to put a price on it.  That can only be done if there
is a buyer for it.  If you are the only seller and the only buyer, then
no money is changing hands.

It may have worth, but that worth can not be measured in dollars.
It's like trying to measure distance in lumens, or mass in seconds.

> you
> can't change the impedance of free space one iota.  Sorry, it's built
> into the universe we live in.

No, but we can hack around it in localized regions - and some have.

hhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metamaterial_antenna#Metamaterial_microwave_lens

>> Smaller beam waist = smaller footprint.
>
> The divergence of a beam of electromagnet energy is theta = 1.22
> lamda/diameter.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airy_disk
>
> "the angle at which the first minimum occurs (which is sometimes
> described as the radius of the Airy disk) depends only on wavelength
> and aperture size"
>
> How does a maser affect this?

Perhaps it would have been more clear if I emphasized the smaller
beam waist, i.e. smaller aperture size or diameter.

> Read the document I sent and see if that answers your questions.  I
> would love to start this on my pocket change or even a few million.
> If you have a way to modify the concept to reduce the cost, please do.

1) Rather than go on about the possible use as weapons, note the
minimum effective diameter of destruction if these were used as
weapons.  Note that those are strategic sizes, and the military is
already better served by existing weapons for targets of that
scale.  (Sure, it *could* be used as a weapon, just like anyone
*could* hijack a plane and try to fly it into a skyscraper.  Having
seen the threat, we will now secure against it, and the US military
doesn't do that kind of weapon.)

2) Sell it as power first, propulsion second.  As noted above, you
can't really put a price on the value as propulsion, because you're
"buying" it from yourself - but you absolutely can put a price on the
value as electricity.  Besides, just operating a sat-solar power
plant is complex enough, and is a milestone that can be achieved
independently, without need of also doing space propulsion.

3) If the whole point is cheap electricity focused into a laser for
propulsion (and if you're convinced that energy worth $2 if sold on
the market is worth $200 for propulsion), consider the other way:
source energy from the ground and boost rockets that way,
possibly with a few reflectors in LEO.  (So that way you're spending
$2 to get $200 worth.  I say you aren't, because that $200 is based
on things that don't actually translate to dollars, but if you insist
that you are...)  No need for giant powersats beforehand, so this
more quickly gets profit (cheap launch).

The main thing is, you're doing solar power and laser launch tied
together.  That's a fine end goal, but accomplish one first, then the
other, and you'll probably find it more feasible.

(Consider: cars and roads.  Go great together, don't they?  Roads
existed long before cars, and the first internal combustion engines
weren't meant for use on roads.  Develop them separately, then
combine them once they exist.)


From pizerdavid at yahoo.com  Mon Aug  6 23:32:06 2012
From: pizerdavid at yahoo.com (david pizer)
Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2012 16:32:06 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] We need fresh ideas!
Message-ID: <1344295926.2849.YahooMailNeo@web161703.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

Developing the technology to allow the reversal of aging to permit virtual physical immortality is the ultimate goal of most cryonicists.
Many of us believe that technology may be within the laws of physics but it may be centuries before we humans control that technology.
So the next best thing would be to create cryopreservation technology now that would allow patients to be prepared so well (at legal death) that doctors in the future can revive them.  Most of us believe that advanced cryopreservation technology is possible but that we are not there now.  You and I may suffer legal death before that advanced cryopreservation technology is perfected. 
So the logical question should be - How can we speed up the development of reversible suspended animation technology now?
The answer is that we need more resources. 
To get more resources faster we need to convince more people that cryopreservation is possible and encourage them to want to make it happen and to join with us now.  It is through more membership that more resources will become available.   Larger membership is the key to faster development of technology.  More members means more money, more volunteer labor,  more public acceptance.
So for those people who are reading this and who want to increase their odds of surviving death you need to ask yourself if you are doing everything you can to bring more resources to the cryopreservation movement? 
I would like to see some meaningful discussion on what other cryoncists are doing to help us reach our goals and what you think we should be doing now that we are not doing now.
David Pizer
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From brent.allsop at canonizer.com  Tue Aug  7 04:07:08 2012
From: brent.allsop at canonizer.com (Brent Allsop)
Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2012 22:07:08 -0600
Subject: [ExI] [universalimmortalism] We need some new energy!
In-Reply-To: <1344296113.24197.YahooMailNeo@web161704.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <1344296113.24197.YahooMailNeo@web161704.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5020946C.7070101@canonizer.com>



Hi David,

I completely agree with you, that we need more energy, and more 
believers, or converts, if you will.  We can't do anything, alone.  The 
bottom line is, many people have mistaken working hypothosis, so are 
pushing in the wrong direction, or failing to push in the right 
direction.  It's simply  a matter of they lack proper moral knowledge, 
and are thereby not choosing what they really want.

Most cryonicists think the arguments that converted them, will convert 
everyone else, and spout mostly just that.  I think that is another big 
problem, as everyone is very different.  You've got to fully understand 
and work within the current beliefs of others, before you can hope to 
help them see something better.

Also, in my opinion, I think you are grossly mistaken, and wasting 
significant amounts on any efforts towards "reversal of aging", which 
will basically get us nothing.  (i.e. we'll still have accidents that 
will kill us, and all the other problems that go along with having a 
primitive dumb minimalistic brain, even if it doesn't age.)

We simply need to discover what consciousness is, and then duplicate it, 
and copy it trillians of times - solving ALL of our problems, not just 
curing some trivial aging problem of some soon to be very outdated and 
primitive platform we're all about to completely abandon.  Any work 
spent on that is a complete immoral waist of time, in my opinion.

Again, in my opinion, your mistaken beliefs are killing us, and many 
others, because it causes you to waste time on the wrong thing.

The  bottom line is, we've got to amplify the moral intelligence and 
wisdom of everyone (maybe I'm morally mistaken also?), so everyone can 
intelligently make the right choices.

And the best way to do that is first, find out what everyone currently 
does believe, and value, and why.  Then you need to give everyone the 
ability to survey their chosen experts, to see what they say we should 
do (experts, no matter who, will always be more intelligent than lay 
populations.)  And we need to measure for what people believe, and know 
why, so we can better convert them, from within their reference, or set 
of values.  In other words, we need to provide a way for all the experts 
to measure for how well their arguments are working, or not, and find 
out what it would take to convert people to better behavior, using their 
current values, not ours, sooner, and focus on getting that.

In other words, everything we're trying to do at canonizer.com.

By the way, check out the new "Amplifying the  Wisdom of the Crowd: 
Building, and Measuring for Expert and Moral Consensus" paper by James 
Carol, linked to on the front page of Canaonizer.com.

It's all about knowing, concisely and quantitatively, what everyone else 
wants.   And   measuring that, so it can improve. If the experts can 
measure all that, concisely and quantitatively, for everyone,  then 
improving it and eventually getting it all, for and with everyone will 
be trivial.

As long as people believe they want to die, or never age in some 
primitive platform, that's where we'll continue to be heading.  I know 
what it will take to convince me, I'm already converted.  The question 
is, what do you currently believe, and what will it take to convert you, 
and everyone else, or visa versa?

Brent Allsop






On 8/6/2012 5:35 PM, david pizer wrote:
> Developing the technology to allow the reversal of aging to permit 
> virtual physical immortality is the _ultimate goal_ of most cryonicists.
> Many of us believe that technology may be within the laws of physics 
> but it may be centuries before we humans control that technology.
> _So the next best thing_ would be to create cryopreservation 
> technology now that would allow patients to be prepared so well (at 
> legal death) that doctors in the future can revive them. Most of us 
> believe that advanced cryopreservation technology is possible but that 
> we are not there now. You and I may suffer legal death before that 
> advanced cryopreservation technology is perfected.
> _So the logical question should be_ - How can we speed up the 
> development of reversible suspended animation technology now?
> The answer is that we need more resources.
> To get more resources faster we need to convince more people that 
> cryopreservation is possible and encourage them to want to make it 
> happen and to join with us now. It is through more membership that 
> more resources will become available. Larger membership is the key to 
> faster development of technology. More members means more money, more 
> volunteer labor, more public acceptance.
> So for those people who are reading this and who want to increase 
> their odds of surviving death you need to ask yourself if you are 
> doing everything you can to bring more resources to the 
> cryopreservation movement?
> I would like to see some meaningful discussion on what other 
> cryoncists are doing to help us reach our goals and what you think we 
> should be doing now that we are not doing now.
> David Pizer
> __._,_.___
> Reply to sender 
> <mailto:pizerdavid at yahoo.com?subject=Re%3A%20We%20need%20some%20new%20energy%21> 
> | Reply to group 
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From eugen at leitl.org  Tue Aug  7 08:47:09 2012
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2012 10:47:09 +0200
Subject: [ExI] [universalimmortalism] We need some new energy!
In-Reply-To: <1344296113.24197.YahooMailNeo@web161704.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <1344296113.24197.YahooMailNeo@web161704.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20120807084709.GN12615@leitl.org>

On Mon, Aug 06, 2012 at 04:35:13PM -0700, david pizer wrote:

> Developing the technology to allow the reversal of aging to permit virtual physical immortality is the ultimate goal of most cryonicists.
> Many of us believe that technology may be within the laws of physics but it may be centuries before we humans control that technology.

My working model is less than a century, unless there is
a collapse. If there's a collapse it's hard to see how
to prevent failure of CSPs and complete patient loss.

> So the next best thing would be to create cryopreservation technology now that would allow patients to be prepared so well (at legal death) that doctors in the future can revive them.  Most of us believe that advanced cryopreservation technology is possible but that we are not there now.  You and I may suffer legal death before that advanced cryopreservation technology is perfected. 

It increasingly looks like refusing fluids and arresting
is insufficient (it compromises ability to perfuse). This
complicates things a lot.

> So the logical question should be - How can we speed up the development of reversible suspended animation technology now?

By helping projects like http://www.brainpreservation.org/

> The answer is that we need more resources. 
> To get more resources faster we need to convince more people that cryopreservation is possible and encourage them to want to make it happen and to join with us now.  It is through more membership that more resources will become available.   Larger membership is the key to faster development of technology.  More members means more money, more volunteer labor,  more public acceptance.

I disagree that more members means better funding.
While not Big Science, we're talking two-digit MUSD
budgets just for an instrument. Membership fees are
barely enough to keep the CSPs from crashing.

The problem with more members it that you
get more active members trying to "help", with not
very favorable outcome. 

> So for those people who are reading this and who want to increase their odds of surviving death you need to ask yourself if you are doing everything you can to bring more resources to the cryopreservation movement? 

It has to be the right resources. Just throwing money
at the problem, and hoping that some of it will stick
is probably quite suboptimal.

> I would like to see some meaningful discussion on what other cryoncists are doing to help us reach our goals and what you think we should be doing now that we are not doing now.

I see a huge problem if we need active shutdown
premortem. I won't point out the implications, since
these are obvious.


------------------------------------

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From kgh1kgh2 at gmail.com  Tue Aug  7 09:02:40 2012
From: kgh1kgh2 at gmail.com (Kevin G Haskell)
Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2012 05:02:40 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Re Atten: For any extropy libertarians
Message-ID: <CAEUzo3+O_-PLh06M5_nv1M0hf5uLvdwK3w0No+LEyB=rnBR_8A@mail.gmail.com>

On 8/1/12, Natasha Vita-More wrote:

>>Interestingly enough I was asked to be involved with a political group out
of Russia and Israel. I'm considering it. It is nonpartisan and on the
platform of radical life extension. There is another competing group and it
will be very interesting to see how this all plays out.



Nevertheless, I respect what Kevin is doing and I am confident I will be
>>involved as an "other".

I meant to thank your for your kind support, Natasha.

Also, I was just was wondering what you meant by "other"?

Thanks, again..

Best,
Kevin

-- 
 * Tweet me on Twitter! - @*KevinGHaskell
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From natasha at natasha.cc  Tue Aug  7 13:24:24 2012
From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More)
Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2012 08:24:24 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Re Atten: For any extropy libertarians
In-Reply-To: <CAEUzo3+O_-PLh06M5_nv1M0hf5uLvdwK3w0No+LEyB=rnBR_8A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEUzo3+O_-PLh06M5_nv1M0hf5uLvdwK3w0No+LEyB=rnBR_8A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <006b01cd749f$f71011e0$e53035a0$@natasha.cc>

Hi Kevin,

 

"Other" means anything that is not accepted as the norm for a group. For
example, for most Westerners, "other" is the cyborg, homosexual, feminist,
etc.  

 

For me, it means that I am outside the realms of any political hegemony and
my personal ideology is to support person's rights, choice and freedom as it
relates to a transhumanist scope that is about the future, life extension,
empathy, etc.

 

Best,

Natasha

 

 <http://www.natasha.cc/> Natasha Vita-More, PhD



Description: esDESiGN__1

Chairman,  <http://www.humanityplus.org/> Humanity+



Editor, The Transhumanist Reader: Classical and ContemporaryEssays on the
Science, 
Technology and Philosophy of the Human Future

 

"The things one feels absolutely certain about are never true.  Oscar Wilde
(But is this true then?)

 

From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Kevin G Haskell
Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 4:03 AM
To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
Subject: [ExI] Re Atten: For any extropy libertarians

 

On 8/1/12, Natasha Vita-More wrote:

>>Interestingly enough I was asked to be involved with a political group out
of Russia and Israel. I'm considering it. It is nonpartisan and on the
platform of radical life extension. There is another competing group and it
will be very interesting to see how this all plays out.



Nevertheless, I respect what Kevin is doing and I am confident I will be
>>involved as an "other". 

I meant to thank your for your kind support, Natasha. 

Also, I was just was wondering what you meant by "other"?

Thanks, again.. 

Best,
Kevin


 

-- 
  Tweet me on Twitter! - @KevinGHaskell

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From spike66 at att.net  Tue Aug  7 16:20:26 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2012 09:20:26 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Re Atten: For any extropy libertarians
In-Reply-To: <006b01cd749f$f71011e0$e53035a0$@natasha.cc>
References: <CAEUzo3+O_-PLh06M5_nv1M0hf5uLvdwK3w0No+LEyB=rnBR_8A@mail.gmail.com>
 <006b01cd749f$f71011e0$e53035a0$@natasha.cc>
Message-ID: <012201cd74b8$8e7e0380$ab7a0a80$@att.net>

.
Subject: Re: [ExI] Re Atten: For any extropy libertarians

 

>.Hi Kevin,

 

>."Other" means anything that is not accepted as the norm for a group. For
example, for most Westerners, "other" is the cyborg, homosexual, feminist,
etc.  .Best, Natasha   <http://www.natasha.cc/> Natasha Vita-More, PhD

 

 

Hmmm, Natasha, I don't think feminists have been others for a long time now.
Homosexuals aren't really others either really.  Perhaps I am too far
removed from most westerners, but those two have been us for a while at
least.  Cyborg is still other, but the transition is happening steadily.

Regarding Cyborg, I do owe an apology to Steve Mann for not fully believing
his initial story about being assaulted in McDonalds.  The story wasn't very
believable as reported, but his photo of a perp reaching for his glasses is
sufficient evidence to me.  It is shown on his blog, about half way down the
page:

http://eyetap.blogspot.com/

I know how stories can get seriously garbled by news reporters, so I am
assuming the weird tale about urinating on his electronics and having them
short out was somehow news reportage fog.

Under no circumstances is it appropriate for a McD employee to mess with
anything any person is wearing.  They can ask him to leave if they think he
is taking pictures in the restroom or something, but they may not physically
attempt to remove the glasses.  Decision: Steve wins.  McD loses.  Won't eat
there anymore.  Steve is no longer an other.

spike

 

 

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From natasha at natasha.cc  Tue Aug  7 18:07:00 2012
From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More)
Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2012 13:07:00 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Re Atten: For any extropy libertarians
In-Reply-To: <012201cd74b8$8e7e0380$ab7a0a80$@att.net>
References: <CAEUzo3+O_-PLh06M5_nv1M0hf5uLvdwK3w0No+LEyB=rnBR_8A@mail.gmail.com>
 <006b01cd749f$f71011e0$e53035a0$@natasha.cc>
 <012201cd74b8$8e7e0380$ab7a0a80$@att.net>
Message-ID: <019e01cd74c7$714343c0$53c9cb40$@natasha.cc>

Ahem . Spike, the term "others" is postmodernist rhetoric. I probably should
have stated this, but I thought it was obvious.  My saying I am an "other"
is tongue-in-cheek. 

 

So, you are mistaken but it is not a big deal.  

 

.

 

 

 

From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of spike
Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 11:20 AM
To: 'ExI chat list'
Subject: Re: [ExI] Re Atten: For any extropy libertarians

 

.
Subject: Re: [ExI] Re Atten: For any extropy libertarians

 

>.Hi Kevin,

 

>."Other" means anything that is not accepted as the norm for a group. For
example, for most Westerners, "other" is the cyborg, homosexual, feminist,
etc.  .Best, Natasha   <http://www.natasha.cc/> Natasha Vita-More, PhD

 

 

Hmmm, Natasha, I don't think feminists have been others for a long time now.
Homosexuals aren't really others either really.  Perhaps I am too far
removed from most westerners, but those two have been us for a while at
least.  Cyborg is still other, but the transition is happening steadily.

Regarding Cyborg, I do owe an apology to Steve Mann for not fully believing
his initial story about being assaulted in McDonalds.  The story wasn't very
believable as reported, but his photo of a perp reaching for his glasses is
sufficient evidence to me.  It is shown on his blog, about half way down the
page:

http://eyetap.blogspot.com/

I know how stories can get seriously garbled by news reporters, so I am
assuming the weird tale about urinating on his electronics and having them
short out was somehow news reportage fog.

Under no circumstances is it appropriate for a McD employee to mess with
anything any person is wearing.  They can ask him to leave if they think he
is taking pictures in the restroom or something, but they may not physically
attempt to remove the glasses.  Decision: Steve wins.  McD loses.  Won't eat
there anymore.  Steve is no longer an other.

spike

 

 

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From msd001 at gmail.com  Wed Aug  8 01:12:41 2012
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2012 21:12:41 -0400
Subject: [ExI] We need fresh ideas!
In-Reply-To: <1344295926.2849.YahooMailNeo@web161703.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <1344295926.2849.YahooMailNeo@web161703.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAOJFdbLXJT1EiCN2dUDR9mG+Uqf8C5NMx6hqoQfxYmSkZRUKGg@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Aug 6, 2012 at 7:32 PM, david pizer <pizerdavid at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Developing the technology to allow the reversal of aging to permit virtual
> physical immortality is the ultimate goal of most cryonicists.

I don't know many cryonicists "irl" but i understood the goals of that
demographic to be quite different from what you claim.

> Many of us believe that technology may be within the laws of physics but it
> may be centuries before we humans control that technology.

Who is us?

> So the logical question should be - How can we speed up the development of
> reversible suspended animation technology now?
> The answer is that we need more resources.

That may be true (or not), however it's also the cure for ever other
problem people are having too.  There's a lot of competition for those
resources.  Then of course the answer is to make more resources... no,
that's not right.  The answer is to eliminate all competition to free
more resources for "us"  (again, who is us?)  Perhaps the answer is us
don't know the answer.

> To get more resources faster we need to convince more people that
> cryopreservation is possible and encourage them to want to make it happen
> and to join with us now. It is through more membership that more resources
> will become available. Larger membership is the key to faster development of
> technology. More members means more money, more volunteer labor, more public
> acceptance.

I wish anything could be this simple.

> So for those people who are reading this and who want to increase their odds
> of surviving death you need to ask yourself if you are doing everything you
> can to bring more resources to the cryopreservation movement?
> I would like to see some meaningful discussion on what other cryoncists are
> doing to help us reach our goals and what you think we should be doing now
> that we are not doing now.

Do you realize how silly the expression "surviving death" sounds?
Perhaps a competely new approach would be beneficial for making this
whole thing sound less crazy?

If I live to be old, I've paid my dues in lfe and in some sense
"deserve" to see the future.  I might have some wisdom to offer, but
only if I manage to stay aware of the limited domain of my life and
the environment in which it was lived.  I doubt I'd have much wisdom
to offer in my final years if I were transported to another part of
the country/world/etc.  So imagine I'm just an old man with nothing
useful to offer.  I doubt many people want to feel this kind of
useless.  How do you convince me that 100 years of exponential
acceleration in the rate of change in tech (and culture, etc) that my
post-legal-death reanimated self has anything at all to offer the
future?  I can't believe there's much need for "living" fossils or
museum pieces and I also doubt that the future needs no-names from the
past to make into celebrities.  If you can't convince me, who is
sympathetic to this cause, how can you convince the so-called average
prole?


From msd001 at gmail.com  Wed Aug  8 00:46:34 2012
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2012 20:46:34 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Re Atten: For any extropy libertarians
In-Reply-To: <012201cd74b8$8e7e0380$ab7a0a80$@att.net>
References: <CAEUzo3+O_-PLh06M5_nv1M0hf5uLvdwK3w0No+LEyB=rnBR_8A@mail.gmail.com>
 <006b01cd749f$f71011e0$e53035a0$@natasha.cc>
 <012201cd74b8$8e7e0380$ab7a0a80$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAOJFdb+eAwkOOUhRujLVtLBLUsAHySpzNk=2ttRZ5E1YmMdgOA@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Aug 7, 2012 at 12:20 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> Under no circumstances is it appropriate for a McD employee to mess with
> anything any person is wearing.  They can ask him to leave if they think he
> is taking pictures in the restroom or something, but they may not physically
> attempt to remove the glasses.  Decision: Steve wins.  McD loses.  Won?t eat
> there anymore.  Steve is no longer an other.

I didn't think anyone over 30 chooses to eat McD... and definitely
nobody with even minimal concern for their health...



From spike66 at att.net  Wed Aug  8 05:16:52 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2012 22:16:52 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Re Atten: For any extropy libertarians
In-Reply-To: <CAOJFdb+eAwkOOUhRujLVtLBLUsAHySpzNk=2ttRZ5E1YmMdgOA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEUzo3+O_-PLh06M5_nv1M0hf5uLvdwK3w0No+LEyB=rnBR_8A@mail.gmail.com>
 <006b01cd749f$f71011e0$e53035a0$@natasha.cc>
 <012201cd74b8$8e7e0380$ab7a0a80$@att.net>
 <CAOJFdb+eAwkOOUhRujLVtLBLUsAHySpzNk=2ttRZ5E1YmMdgOA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00e601cd7525$0606c880$12145980$@att.net>



>... On Behalf Of Mike Dougherty
Subject: Re: [ExI] Re Atten: For any extropy libertarians

On Tue, Aug 7, 2012 at 12:20 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>>... Under no circumstances is it appropriate for a McD employee to mess
with anything any person is wearing...

>...I didn't think anyone over 30 chooses to eat McD... and definitely
nobody with even minimal concern for their health...

_______________________________________________

On the contrary, McDonald's food isn't necessarily unhealthy, if devoured in
reasonable quantities, this being surprisingly small.  It is high fat, which
means you eat only a little of it.  Health-wise, McDs has been given a bad
rap.  

Most of the clientele I see in there are over 30.  My notion now is there is
nothing wrong with high-fat foods, but one must watch the quantity
carefully.  It is easy to overeat.  In some ways, it is analogous to whiskey
vs beer.  It doesn't matter which form the alcohol is devoured, only the
total amount.  McD's is the food equivalent of hard liquor.  Drink only one
shot of whiskey, no problem.  Eat only the smaller value meal on occasion,
no problem.

I may wait to see if the perps who attacked Steve Mann get fired.  If so, I
may devour an egg McMuffin on occasion.

spike



From max at maxmore.com  Wed Aug  8 06:34:46 2012
From: max at maxmore.com (Max More)
Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2012 23:34:46 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Re Atten: For any extropy libertarians
In-Reply-To: <00e601cd7525$0606c880$12145980$@att.net>
References: <CAEUzo3+O_-PLh06M5_nv1M0hf5uLvdwK3w0No+LEyB=rnBR_8A@mail.gmail.com>
 <006b01cd749f$f71011e0$e53035a0$@natasha.cc>
 <012201cd74b8$8e7e0380$ab7a0a80$@att.net>
 <CAOJFdb+eAwkOOUhRujLVtLBLUsAHySpzNk=2ttRZ5E1YmMdgOA@mail.gmail.com>
 <00e601cd7525$0606c880$12145980$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAJX-7wV+-2Nt_9ExLcT6OWePi9Zak7LrZi7BJaj+jFpSQnaDtQ@mail.gmail.com>

Depends partly on what you select at McD's. It's not necessarily worse than
other fast food places, but tends to be demonized. The fat isn't
necessarily a problem but, unfortunately, they cook not in a good saturated
fat like coconut oil, but probably in something awful like canola oil or
some other seed oil.

As spike says, it's also a matter of frequency. The occasional McD's, even
the less healthy choices, aren't going to kill you.

All this must be customized according to your specific biochemistry. We
still know extremely little, but it seems that the 20% of the population
with the allele for ApoE4 should keep their fat intake relatively low. You
can find out whether you have that allele for $99 through 23andMe. If you
do, you're also at higher risk of Alzheimers. If you have two copies, you
10 to 30 times the risk of developing Alzheimers.

--Max


On Tue, Aug 7, 2012 at 10:16 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

>
>
> >... On Behalf Of Mike Dougherty
> Subject: Re: [ExI] Re Atten: For any extropy libertarians
>
> On Tue, Aug 7, 2012 at 12:20 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> >>... Under no circumstances is it appropriate for a McD employee to mess
> with anything any person is wearing...
>
> >...I didn't think anyone over 30 chooses to eat McD... and definitely
> nobody with even minimal concern for their health...
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> On the contrary, McDonald's food isn't necessarily unhealthy, if devoured
> in
> reasonable quantities, this being surprisingly small.  It is high fat,
> which
> means you eat only a little of it.  Health-wise, McDs has been given a bad
> rap.
>
> Most of the clientele I see in there are over 30.  My notion now is there
> is
> nothing wrong with high-fat foods, but one must watch the quantity
> carefully.  It is easy to overeat.  In some ways, it is analogous to
> whiskey
> vs beer.  It doesn't matter which form the alcohol is devoured, only the
> total amount.  McD's is the food equivalent of hard liquor.  Drink only one
> shot of whiskey, no problem.  Eat only the smaller value meal on occasion,
> no problem.
>
> I may wait to see if the perps who attacked Steve Mann get fired.  If so, I
> may devour an egg McMuffin on occasion.
>
> spike
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>



-- 
Max More, PhD
Strategic Philosopher
Co-editor, *The Transhumanist Reader*
President & CEO, Alcor Life Extension Foundation
7895 E. Acoma Dr # 110
Scottsdale, AZ 85260
480/905-1906 ext 113
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From pharos at gmail.com  Wed Aug  8 10:39:38 2012
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2012 11:39:38 +0100
Subject: [ExI] We need fresh ideas!
In-Reply-To: <CAOJFdbLXJT1EiCN2dUDR9mG+Uqf8C5NMx6hqoQfxYmSkZRUKGg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1344295926.2849.YahooMailNeo@web161703.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <CAOJFdbLXJT1EiCN2dUDR9mG+Uqf8C5NMx6hqoQfxYmSkZRUKGg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armj-GtajUTyO8yXO8LL3Z=rYH+2njRyL+5r97KzN90M=-g@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Aug 8, 2012 at 2:12 AM, Mike Dougherty wrote:
<snip>
> If I live to be old, I've paid my dues in lfe and in some sense
> "deserve" to see the future.  I might have some wisdom to offer, but
> only if I manage to stay aware of the limited domain of my life and
> the environment in which it was lived.  I doubt I'd have much wisdom
> to offer in my final years if I were transported to another part of
> the country/world/etc.  So imagine I'm just an old man with nothing
> useful to offer.  I doubt many people want to feel this kind of
> useless.  How do you convince me that 100 years of exponential
> acceleration in the rate of change in tech (and culture, etc) that my
> post-legal-death reanimated self has anything at all to offer the
> future?  I can't believe there's much need for "living" fossils or
> museum pieces and I also doubt that the future needs no-names from the
> past to make into celebrities.  If you can't convince me, who is
> sympathetic to this cause, how can you convince the so-called average
> prole?
>

Well, there is talk about recreating dinos from DNA. It might be fun
for posthumans to poke a reanimated Mike aborigine and be politely
interested in his weird beliefs and behaviour. You could probably
become a soap star on the lines of 'The Neanderthal in my house' and
do lots of comic things to amuse the public.  ;)

Perhaps research into human suspended animation or hibernation might
be more useful. Some work has already been done and it could be useful
for long space journeys or for medical reasons.
I can see that being more acceptable to the general public than
'reviving the dead'. initially it might only be for shorter periods,
maybe up to a year, for safety reasons. And you would probably want to
wake up regularly, to check that the bankers hadn't stolen your
finances while you were asleep.

That would be an acceptable method of time-travel for many people.

BillK


From msd001 at gmail.com  Wed Aug  8 15:17:10 2012
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2012 11:17:10 -0400
Subject: [ExI] We need fresh ideas!
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armj-GtajUTyO8yXO8LL3Z=rYH+2njRyL+5r97KzN90M=-g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1344295926.2849.YahooMailNeo@web161703.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <CAOJFdbLXJT1EiCN2dUDR9mG+Uqf8C5NMx6hqoQfxYmSkZRUKGg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armj-GtajUTyO8yXO8LL3Z=rYH+2njRyL+5r97KzN90M=-g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOJFdb+4dVvsCf_dnV3948ybUQZuApxS_nN0Xb8orGYgh8tKKg@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Aug 8, 2012 at 6:39 AM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:
> Perhaps research into human suspended animation or hibernation might
> be more useful. Some work has already been done and it could be useful
> for long space journeys or for medical reasons.
> I can see that being more acceptable to the general public than
> 'reviving the dead'. initially it might only be for shorter periods,
> maybe up to a year, for safety reasons. And you would probably want to
> wake up regularly, to check that the bankers hadn't stolen your
> finances while you were asleep.
>
> That would be an acceptable method of time-travel for many people.

If storage was cheap enough that it could be paid for from the
interest off a savings account you might be able to "invest" in that
time-travel for the sake of building enough bank account to actually
live while you're awake.  As it is now there are a lot of us
wage-slaves who barely make enough above maintenance expenses to feel
like there is reason to keep up with the circus.

I wonder though if the average person has the mental/emotional
fortitude to leave their tribe/pack to take that one-way trip?  Maybe
a year isn't so bad... plenty of people fall out of touch for a year.
When they get back together, however, there's a year of experience to
'catch up' over.  In the case where I've literally done nothing while
you've aged another year I have nothing to share.  Every year closer
to the magical singularity makes taking a whole year off seem more
expensive than the last.  Maybe there will be slow-clubs for the
recently-awakened unenhanced or for those in the future to have the
experience of "going back in time"  (much like watching 80's TV shows
is now)

"May you live in interesting times" indeed.


From pizerdavid at yahoo.com  Wed Aug  8 19:09:47 2012
From: pizerdavid at yahoo.com (david pizer)
Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2012 12:09:47 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] We need fresh ideas!
In-Reply-To: <CAAeGuv8u5xd+4yhcep9yWzDOd9UXnKvNcC-XV8tf5bWpwxvF3g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1344295926.2849.YahooMailNeo@web161703.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <CAAeGuv8u5xd+4yhcep9yWzDOd9UXnKvNcC-XV8tf5bWpwxvF3g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1344452987.66604.YahooMailNeo@web161701.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

Patrick McLaren has two thoughtful responses to my earlier post asking to discuss how those of us who want to avoid being dead forever and are in the cryoprervation movement or related immortality movements might do things to improve our odds.
?
Patrick said:? "Surely the most pragmatic approach towards reversible methods would be
to get a Biology degree(s) and dedicate your life to conducting the relevant research."
?
Pizer's response:? There are a few people who have done as you suggest above.? They are presently conducting relevant research.? The problems they are having is that it takes massive amounts of money, and other forms of "research muscle,"?to do the relevant research to invent the technology to reverse aging and/or invent reversible suspended animation.? At the present rate of progress it might take centuries before we have either one.? If we could motivate large amounts of people to want cryopreservation for themselves then we could have many more researchers and much more money, political influence and public support for our goals.

Patrick said:? "I would think that (and hope that) the primary concern of Cryonic
organizations is sustainability, rather than the costly pursuit of? developing new technologies."
?
Pizer's response:?For many decades I have been trying to get the people in the cryopreservation movement to understand that in business it is the quality and quantity of your customers/members that provide the best chance of sustainability.? More members means more people who want the cryonics organization to endure and succeed.??? The odds are that all of us that are reading this message right now are going to have to spend some time in the tanks.?? A cryopreserved patient is pretty helpless while hanging upside down stiff as a board.?? Their best chances is in the amount of people who want to see them reanimated some day in the future, who are?outside the tank doing things to promote the success of that company.
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From spike66 at att.net  Wed Aug  8 22:13:00 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2012 15:13:00 -0700
Subject: [ExI] forward
Message-ID: <00ba01cd75b2$f95f1900$ec1d4b00$@att.net>

 

Note from Alan Brooks:

 

Brent Alsop:

"(i.e. we'll still have accidents that 
will kill us, and all the other problems that go along with having a 
primitive dumb minimalistic brain, even if it doesn't age.)"

 

 

This is one of those nagging doubts that has been in the back of my mind.

Wish more was written about it-- would someone here please do so?  Alan
Brooks

 

 

 

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From spike66 at att.net  Wed Aug  8 22:48:42 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2012 15:48:42 -0700
Subject: [ExI] bexarotene papers
Message-ID: <00d401cd75b7$f63dc280$e2b94780$@att.net>

 

Apparently bexarotene is a bust:

 

http://vitals.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/08/08/13166642-alzheimers-treatment-not
-the-hoped-for-miracle?lite

 

Damn.

 

spike

 

Alzheimer's treatment not the hoped for miracle

By Robert Bazell, Chief science and medical correspondent, NBC News

 

Robert Bazell, NBC News

A cancer drug is turning out not to be the miraculous treatment for
Alzheimer's that many had hoped. Two papers out Wednesday in the New England
Journal of Medicine warn families of Alzheimer's victims not to seek
treatment with Targretin (generic name: bexarotene). 

Last February a study from Case Western Reserve University reported that the
drug rapidly cleared the clumps of protein known as beta-amyloid, the
hallmark of Alzheimer's, from the brains of mice with a version of the
disease. Since the drug was already on the market, approved as a treatment
for lymphoma, doctors could immediately prescribe it in so-called off-label
use for Alzheimer's. And thousands of families understandably asked.

But one mouse study does not prove that a drug is effective in humans. The
drug is expensive - about $14,000 a year - and off-label use is often not
covered by insurance. The drug can also bring on severe side-effects. In one
paper in the Journal, Justin Lowenthal, Sara Hull and Steven Pearson of the
National Institutes of Health and Massachusetts General Hospital conclude
that for this drug "even if the patients are willing to take the risks for
the potential benefit, the physician's answer should be no." In the second
paper Frank LaFerla of the University of California, Irvine observes "the
field has been down this road before, as successes in preclinical models
have thus far not translated well into the clinic."

 

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From spike66 at att.net  Wed Aug  8 23:02:07 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2012 16:02:07 -0700
Subject: [ExI] bexarotene papers
Message-ID: <00e201cd75b9$d5ce2970$816a7c50$@att.net>

Oy vey, this is a bad day for those with a family member suffering from AD:

 

http://www.foxnews.com/health/2012/08/08/popcorn-ingredient-found-to-be-link
ed-with-alzheimer/?test=latestnews

 

 


Popcorn ingredient found to be linked with Alzheimer's


Published August 08, 2012

FoxNews.com

Movie popcorn has often been criticized for its high calorie count, but now
the tasty treat may harm more than just your waistline.

A recent study has found that diacetyl, an ingredient in popcorn responsible
for its buttery flavor and smell, may be linked to Alzheimer's disease,
UPI.com reported.



Read more:
<http://www.foxnews.com/health/2012/08/08/popcorn-ingredient-found-to-be-lin
ked-with-alzheimer/?test=latestnews#ixzz22zyRsUL2>
http://www.foxnews.com/health/2012/08/08/popcorn-ingredient-found-to-be-link
ed-with-alzheimer/?test=latestnews#ixzz22zyRsUL2

 

 

 

 

From: spike [mailto:spike66 at att.net] 
Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2012 3:49 PM
To: 'ExI chat list'
Subject: bexarotene papers

 

 

Apparently bexarotene is a bust:

 

http://vitals.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/08/08/13166642-alzheimers-treatment-not
-the-hoped-for-miracle?lite

 

Damn.

 

spike

 

Alzheimer's treatment not the hoped for miracle

By Robert Bazell, Chief science and medical correspondent, NBC News

 

Robert Bazell, NBC News

A cancer drug is turning out not to be the miraculous treatment for
Alzheimer's that many had hoped. Two papers out Wednesday in the New England
Journal of Medicine warn families of Alzheimer's victims not to seek
treatment with Targretin (generic name: bexarotene). 

Last February a study from Case Western Reserve University reported that the
drug rapidly cleared the clumps of protein known as beta-amyloid, the
hallmark of Alzheimer's, from the brains of mice with a version of the
disease. Since the drug was already on the market, approved as a treatment
for lymphoma, doctors could immediately prescribe it in so-called off-label
use for Alzheimer's. And thousands of families understandably asked.

But one mouse study does not prove that a drug is effective in humans. The
drug is expensive - about $14,000 a year - and off-label use is often not
covered by insurance. The drug can also bring on severe side-effects. In one
paper in the Journal, Justin Lowenthal, Sara Hull and Steven Pearson of the
National Institutes of Health and Massachusetts General Hospital conclude
that for this drug "even if the patients are willing to take the risks for
the potential benefit, the physician's answer should be no." In the second
paper Frank LaFerla of the University of California, Irvine observes "the
field has been down this road before, as successes in preclinical models
have thus far not translated well into the clinic."

 

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From mrjones2020 at gmail.com  Thu Aug  9 09:10:15 2012
From: mrjones2020 at gmail.com (J.R. Jones)
Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2012 05:10:15 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Bucky Balls Could Double Your Lifespan
Message-ID: <CADDVf2KeUUqFkpwrKxdAOf05c1pe4qUpJhNZ+bR_sYdvm=hU7Q@mail.gmail.com>

http://m.gizmodo.com/5902703/bucky-balls-could-double-your-lifespan

So where do I get these? My olive oil doesn't seem to contain C60.
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From dan_ust at yahoo.com  Thu Aug  9 19:01:08 2012
From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan)
Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2012 12:01:08 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Bucky Balls Could Double Your Lifespan
In-Reply-To: <CADDVf2KeUUqFkpwrKxdAOf05c1pe4qUpJhNZ+bR_sYdvm=hU7Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADDVf2KeUUqFkpwrKxdAOf05c1pe4qUpJhNZ+bR_sYdvm=hU7Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1344538868.80049.YahooMailNeo@web126205.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

On Thursday, August 9, 2012 5:10 AM J.R. Jones <mrjones2020 at gmail.com> wrote:
> http://m.gizmodo.com/5902703/bucky-balls-could-double-your-lifespan
>
> So where do I get these? My olive oil doesn't seem to contain C60.

What's more amazing, to me, are some of the comments, especially on living twice as long being horrible, such as:

"Still... Could you imagine working for 80 years instead of 40 for your retirement?"

This remark reminds me of a friend I had in college. A few of us were discussing life extension and he would only do it if it didn't involve much effort or discomfort. It came down to one of us asking him if he had to do one injection a day -- something many diabetics put up with now -- would he do it over the alternative of aging and dying. He quickly and seriously responded that he wouldn't do it. Of course, one could say people like this will die out. Sure, they might. But my guess is it's easy, from the armchair to talk about how you'd rather die than, say, have to brush your teeth, floss, shower, etc. when you could be nice and dead in the ground rotting, but when the option is actually available people will almost always choose life.

(This goes along with Bryan Caplan's views on the costs of holding a given position. If the costs are negligible, then, opines Caplan, people can indulge in all sorts of weird positions that make little sense. But, raise those costs to a perceptible level, and suddenly they start holding or at least acting as if they held much more sensible positions.)

Regards,

Dan
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From dan_ust at yahoo.com  Thu Aug  9 19:30:09 2012
From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan)
Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2012 12:30:09 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] bexarotene papers
In-Reply-To: <00d401cd75b7$f63dc280$e2b94780$@att.net>
References: <00d401cd75b7$f63dc280$e2b94780$@att.net>
Message-ID: <1344540609.85734.YahooMailNeo@web126203.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

Just reading the first news story, it appears one problem is no proven efficacy -- not proven non-efficacy. That means there's still hope it might work and this just depends on someone or some group doing the work to find out -- e.g., replicating the results in non-human models.

The second paper mentioned, IIRC, seems to merely tell us that treatments must start earlier -- not so much that they won't work. Maybe the model here is something like rabies: vaccinate before symptoms are perceived. The problem, of course, is finding who's been "bitten" -- unless one wants to put everyone on the drug.

Granted, this is not all great news, but it's got to be put into perspective.

Regards,

Dan
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From pharos at gmail.com  Thu Aug  9 20:27:47 2012
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2012 21:27:47 +0100
Subject: [ExI] bexarotene papers
In-Reply-To: <1344540609.85734.YahooMailNeo@web126203.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <00d401cd75b7$f63dc280$e2b94780$@att.net>
 <1344540609.85734.YahooMailNeo@web126203.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armi4OYiSdOQzg79sANZmJe1Zm_OWzQgD8L-LoSc79wyGmQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Aug 9, 2012 at 8:30 PM, Dan wrote:
> Just reading the first news story, it appears one problem is no proven
> efficacy -- not proven non-efficacy. That means there's still hope it might
> work and this just depends on someone or some group doing the work to find
> out -- e.g., replicating the results in non-human models.
>

I agree. The first article is a cautionary warning to doctors.
No further testing has been done. The one mouse study has not even
been replicated yet, so it could be a fluke result.

Quote:
They noted that contrary to comments traded in Internet chat groups,
bexarotene has a host of adverse effects, including hyperlipidemia and
increased risk for acute pancreatitis, hypothyroidism, leukopenia, and
liver damage.

"Given these known risks, without evidence that bexarotene will be
effective against human Alzheimer's disease, and absent any guidance
as to the appropriate doses for this condition, the proper exercise of
clinical judgment should certainly lead physicians to counsel patients
and families that it is premature to prescribe bexarotene for this
purpose,"

In elderly Alzheimer's patients, many of whom take multiple
medications, bexarotene could interact and interfere with other drugs.
------------------------------

> The second paper mentioned, IIRC, seems to merely tell us that treatments
> must start earlier -- not so much that they won't work. Maybe the model here
> is something like rabies: vaccinate before symptoms are perceived. The
> problem, of course, is finding who's been "bitten" -- unless one wants to
> put everyone on the drug.
>
>

The second paper is for a different drug, bapineuzumab.
Quote:
On Monday, Pfizer announced it was abandoning its efforts to market
bapineuzumab, a drug that definitely cleared amyloid plaques in
people, after a second, large clinical trial found it did not make the
patients noticeably better.
----------

So they speculate that treatment should begin before the plaques and
the dementia become noticeable.
But it is only speculation.


BillK


From spike66 at att.net  Thu Aug  9 23:25:52 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2012 16:25:52 -0700
Subject: [ExI] bexarotene papers
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armi4OYiSdOQzg79sANZmJe1Zm_OWzQgD8L-LoSc79wyGmQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <00d401cd75b7$f63dc280$e2b94780$@att.net>
 <1344540609.85734.YahooMailNeo@web126203.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAL_armi4OYiSdOQzg79sANZmJe1Zm_OWzQgD8L-LoSc79wyGmQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <008a01cd7686$51829520$f487bf60$@att.net>


-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of BillK
...

>...I agree. The first article is a cautionary warning to doctors.  No
further testing has been done. The one mouse study has not even been
replicated yet, so it could be a fluke result.  BillK
_______________________________________________


Oy vey, the LA Times today replicated a mistake from early in the cycle back
in February.  An order of magnitude error was made by someone writing "per
day" instead of "per month."  I have seen this error pop up hundreds of
times, and it may have slain patients by now.  

http://www.latimes.com/health/boostershots/la-heb-alzheimers-drug-ethics-201
20809,0,2927327.story

".Second, patients and their advocates must consider whether it is fair for
doctors to begin writing prescriptions for bexarotene for patients with
dementia. The unreimbursed cost of treating an Alzheimer's disease patient
with bexarotene -- anywhere between $1,200 and $2,500 per day out-of-pocket
by one estimate -- would make this a treatment option only for the very
wealthy."

Imagine a really wealthy family with an AD patient, reads the above comment,
says to his son, Junior, you somehow know how to score all kinds of vile
dope to poke into yourself, so take this $10k, go use your contacts, bring
me that much Targretin and don't tell me how or where you got it.  Junior
takes off, comes back an hour later with $10k in Targretin, dad shovels all
of it down grandma's throat over the next 4 to 6 days, patient mysteriously
expires from an acute overdose of bexarotene resulting in massive multiple
organ failure.  Newspapers need to be very careful about propagating
misinformation.

Eeesh.

spike



From spike66 at att.net  Thu Aug  9 23:34:15 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2012 16:34:15 -0700
Subject: [ExI] bexarotene papers
References: <00d401cd75b7$f63dc280$e2b94780$@att.net>
 <1344540609.85734.YahooMailNeo@web126203.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAL_armi4OYiSdOQzg79sANZmJe1Zm_OWzQgD8L-LoSc79wyGmQ@mail.gmail.com> 
Message-ID: <009301cd7687$7da39ef0$78eadcd0$@att.net>


Ethics hipsters, what do I do now?  I see this article, and now how do I get
the message to the LA Times to fix this goddam error forthwith, before some
desperate ill-informed prole takes and stuffs a month's supply of Targretin
into grandma in one afternoon?  Does anyone here know anyone from the Times,
or how does one go about this?  

Help me Obi Wan, and do it riiiight noooow please, immediately.

spike

_______________________________________________


Oy vey, the LA Times today replicated a mistake from early in the cycle back
in February.  An order of magnitude error was made by someone writing "per
day" instead of "per month."  I have seen this error pop up hundreds of
times, and it may have slain patients by now.  

http://www.latimes.com/health/boostershots/la-heb-alzheimers-drug-ethics-201
20809,0,2927327.story

".Second, patients and their advocates must consider whether it is fair for
doctors to begin writing prescriptions for bexarotene for patients with
dementia. The unreimbursed cost of treating an Alzheimer's disease patient
with bexarotene -- anywhere between $1,200 and $2,500 per day out-of-pocket
by one estimate -- would make this a treatment option only for the very
wealthy."

Imagine a really wealthy family with an AD patient, reads the above comment,
says to his son, Junior, you somehow know how to score all kinds of vile
dope to poke into yourself, so take this $10k, go use your contacts, bring
me that much Targretin and don't tell me how or where you got it.  Junior
takes off, comes back an hour later with $10k in Targretin, dad shovels all
of it down grandma's throat over the next 4 to 6 days, patient mysteriously
expires from an acute overdose of bexarotene resulting in massive multiple
organ failure.  Newspapers need to be very careful about propagating
misinformation.

Eeesh.

spike



From spike66 at att.net  Thu Aug  9 23:51:15 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2012 16:51:15 -0700
Subject: [ExI] bexarotene papers
In-Reply-To: <009301cd7687$7da39ef0$78eadcd0$@att.net>
References: <00d401cd75b7$f63dc280$e2b94780$@att.net>
 <1344540609.85734.YahooMailNeo@web126203.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAL_armi4OYiSdOQzg79sANZmJe1Zm_OWzQgD8L-LoSc79wyGmQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <009301cd7687$7da39ef0$78eadcd0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <00eb01cd7689$dd7a0150$986e03f0$@att.net>

OK, I created an account, logged in and was the first to comment, but the
comment hasn't shown up yet.  Any other ideas?

spike

-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of spike
Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2012 4:34 PM
To: 'ExI chat list'
Subject: Re: [ExI] bexarotene papers


Ethics hipsters, what do I do now?  I see this article, and now how do I get
the message to the LA Times to fix this goddam error forthwith, before some
desperate ill-informed prole takes and stuffs a month's supply of Targretin
into grandma in one afternoon?  Does anyone here know anyone from the Times,
or how does one go about this?  

Help me Obi Wan, and do it riiiight noooow please, immediately.

spike

_______________________________________________


Oy vey, the LA Times today replicated a mistake from early in the cycle back
in February.  An order of magnitude error was made by someone writing "per
day" instead of "per month."  I have seen this error pop up hundreds of
times, and it may have slain patients by now.  

http://www.latimes.com/health/boostershots/la-heb-alzheimers-drug-ethics-201
20809,0,2927327.story

".Second, patients and their advocates must consider whether it is fair for
doctors to begin writing prescriptions for bexarotene for patients with
dementia. The unreimbursed cost of treating an Alzheimer's disease patient
with bexarotene -- anywhere between $1,200 and $2,500 per day out-of-pocket
by one estimate -- would make this a treatment option only for the very
wealthy."

Imagine a really wealthy family with an AD patient, reads the above comment,
says to his son, Junior, you somehow know how to score all kinds of vile
dope to poke into yourself, so take this $10k, go use your contacts, bring
me that much Targretin and don't tell me how or where you got it.  Junior
takes off, comes back an hour later with $10k in Targretin, dad shovels all
of it down grandma's throat over the next 4 to 6 days, patient mysteriously
expires from an acute overdose of bexarotene resulting in massive multiple
organ failure.  Newspapers need to be very careful about propagating
misinformation.

Eeesh.

spike

_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat



From spike66 at att.net  Fri Aug 10 00:05:17 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2012 17:05:17 -0700
Subject: [ExI] bexarotene papers
References: <00d401cd75b7$f63dc280$e2b94780$@att.net>
 <1344540609.85734.YahooMailNeo@web126203.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAL_armi4OYiSdOQzg79sANZmJe1Zm_OWzQgD8L-LoSc79wyGmQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <009301cd7687$7da39ef0$78eadcd0$@att.net> 
Message-ID: <00f201cd768b$d3a092a0$7ae1b7e0$@att.net>

My comment isn't showing up.  What do we do now, coach?

spike

-----Original Message-----
From: spike [mailto:spike66 at att.net] 
Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2012 4:51 PM
To: 'ExI chat list'
Subject: RE: [ExI] bexarotene papers

OK, I created an account, logged in and was the first to comment, but the
comment hasn't shown up yet.  Any other ideas?

spike

-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of spike
Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2012 4:34 PM
To: 'ExI chat list'
Subject: Re: [ExI] bexarotene papers


Ethics hipsters, what do I do now?  I see this article, and now how do I get
the message to the LA Times to fix this goddam error forthwith, before some
desperate ill-informed prole takes and stuffs a month's supply of Targretin
into grandma in one afternoon?  Does anyone here know anyone from the Times,
or how does one go about this?  

Help me Obi Wan, and do it riiiight noooow please, immediately.

spike

_______________________________________________


Oy vey, the LA Times today replicated a mistake from early in the cycle back
in February.  An order of magnitude error was made by someone writing "per
day" instead of "per month."  I have seen this error pop up hundreds of
times, and it may have slain patients by now.  

http://www.latimes.com/health/boostershots/la-heb-alzheimers-drug-ethics-201
20809,0,2927327.story

".Second, patients and their advocates must consider whether it is fair for
doctors to begin writing prescriptions for bexarotene for patients with
dementia. The unreimbursed cost of treating an Alzheimer's disease patient
with bexarotene -- anywhere between $1,200 and $2,500 per day out-of-pocket
by one estimate -- would make this a treatment option only for the very
wealthy."

Imagine a really wealthy family with an AD patient, reads the above comment,
says to his son, Junior, you somehow know how to score all kinds of vile
dope to poke into yourself, so take this $10k, go use your contacts, bring
me that much Targretin and don't tell me how or where you got it.  Junior
takes off, comes back an hour later with $10k in Targretin, dad shovels all
of it down grandma's throat over the next 4 to 6 days, patient mysteriously
expires from an acute overdose of bexarotene resulting in massive multiple
organ failure.  Newspapers need to be very careful about propagating
misinformation.

Eeesh.

spike

_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat



From atymes at gmail.com  Fri Aug 10 00:21:11 2012
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2012 17:21:11 -0700
Subject: [ExI] bexarotene papers
In-Reply-To: <00f201cd768b$d3a092a0$7ae1b7e0$@att.net>
References: <00d401cd75b7$f63dc280$e2b94780$@att.net>
 <1344540609.85734.YahooMailNeo@web126203.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAL_armi4OYiSdOQzg79sANZmJe1Zm_OWzQgD8L-LoSc79wyGmQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <009301cd7687$7da39ef0$78eadcd0$@att.net>
 <00f201cd768b$d3a092a0$7ae1b7e0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNQbcdrOpPM21gfDd_gGn=xRArsBgU9Fy2NW41hg_f9VUg@mail.gmail.com>

Wait for their moderators to get around to approving it.
Which may be some time tomorrow.

On Thu, Aug 9, 2012 at 5:05 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> My comment isn't showing up.  What do we do now, coach?
>
> spike
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: spike [mailto:spike66 at att.net]
> Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2012 4:51 PM
> To: 'ExI chat list'
> Subject: RE: [ExI] bexarotene papers
>
> OK, I created an account, logged in and was the first to comment, but the
> comment hasn't shown up yet.  Any other ideas?
>
> spike
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
> [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of spike
> Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2012 4:34 PM
> To: 'ExI chat list'
> Subject: Re: [ExI] bexarotene papers
>
>
> Ethics hipsters, what do I do now?  I see this article, and now how do I get
> the message to the LA Times to fix this goddam error forthwith, before some
> desperate ill-informed prole takes and stuffs a month's supply of Targretin
> into grandma in one afternoon?  Does anyone here know anyone from the Times,
> or how does one go about this?
>
> Help me Obi Wan, and do it riiiight noooow please, immediately.
>
> spike
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> Oy vey, the LA Times today replicated a mistake from early in the cycle back
> in February.  An order of magnitude error was made by someone writing "per
> day" instead of "per month."  I have seen this error pop up hundreds of
> times, and it may have slain patients by now.
>
> http://www.latimes.com/health/boostershots/la-heb-alzheimers-drug-ethics-201
> 20809,0,2927327.story
>
> ".Second, patients and their advocates must consider whether it is fair for
> doctors to begin writing prescriptions for bexarotene for patients with
> dementia. The unreimbursed cost of treating an Alzheimer's disease patient
> with bexarotene -- anywhere between $1,200 and $2,500 per day out-of-pocket
> by one estimate -- would make this a treatment option only for the very
> wealthy."
>
> Imagine a really wealthy family with an AD patient, reads the above comment,
> says to his son, Junior, you somehow know how to score all kinds of vile
> dope to poke into yourself, so take this $10k, go use your contacts, bring
> me that much Targretin and don't tell me how or where you got it.  Junior
> takes off, comes back an hour later with $10k in Targretin, dad shovels all
> of it down grandma's throat over the next 4 to 6 days, patient mysteriously
> expires from an acute overdose of bexarotene resulting in massive multiple
> organ failure.  Newspapers need to be very careful about propagating
> misinformation.
>
> Eeesh.
>
> spike
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From spike66 at att.net  Fri Aug 10 00:14:08 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2012 17:14:08 -0700
Subject: [ExI] bexarotene papers
References: <00d401cd75b7$f63dc280$e2b94780$@att.net>
 <1344540609.85734.YahooMailNeo@web126203.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAL_armi4OYiSdOQzg79sANZmJe1Zm_OWzQgD8L-LoSc79wyGmQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <009301cd7687$7da39ef0$78eadcd0$@att.net> 
Message-ID: <00f301cd768d$0fc49460$2f4dbd20$@att.net>

I declare another temporary open season on posts regarding bexarotene, thru
the weekend.  I intend to post my brains out on this until that dangerous
error is fixed in the article.

Does anyone here have an existing account on LA Times?  If so, post me back
forthwith, spike66 at att.net, and let me send you something to post in their
comments section on the Targretin article.  Quickly please, let's try to
stop a catastrophe before it happens, thanks.

spike

-----Original Message-----
From: spike [mailto:spike66 at att.net] 
Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2012 5:05 PM
To: 'ExI chat list'
Subject: RE: [ExI] bexarotene papers

My comment isn't showing up.  What do we do now, coach?

spike

-----Original Message-----
From: spike [mailto:spike66 at att.net] 
Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2012 4:51 PM
To: 'ExI chat list'
Subject: RE: [ExI] bexarotene papers

OK, I created an account, logged in and was the first to comment, but the
comment hasn't shown up yet.  Any other ideas?

spike

-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of spike
Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2012 4:34 PM
To: 'ExI chat list'
Subject: Re: [ExI] bexarotene papers


Ethics hipsters, what do I do now?  I see this article, and now how do I get
the message to the LA Times to fix this goddam error forthwith, before some
desperate ill-informed prole takes and stuffs a month's supply of Targretin
into grandma in one afternoon?  Does anyone here know anyone from the Times,
or how does one go about this?  

Help me Obi Wan, and do it riiiight noooow please, immediately.

spike

_______________________________________________


Oy vey, the LA Times today replicated a mistake from early in the cycle back
in February.  An order of magnitude error was made by someone writing "per
day" instead of "per month."  I have seen this error pop up hundreds of
times, and it may have slain patients by now.  

http://www.latimes.com/health/boostershots/la-heb-alzheimers-drug-ethics-201
20809,0,2927327.story

".Second, patients and their advocates must consider whether it is fair for
doctors to begin writing prescriptions for bexarotene for patients with
dementia. The unreimbursed cost of treating an Alzheimer's disease patient
with bexarotene -- anywhere between $1,200 and $2,500 per day out-of-pocket
by one estimate -- would make this a treatment option only for the very
wealthy."

Imagine a really wealthy family with an AD patient, reads the above comment,
says to his son, Junior, you somehow know how to score all kinds of vile
dope to poke into yourself, so take this $10k, go use your contacts, bring
me that much Targretin and don't tell me how or where you got it.  Junior
takes off, comes back an hour later with $10k in Targretin, dad shovels all
of it down grandma's throat over the next 4 to 6 days, patient mysteriously
expires from an acute overdose of bexarotene resulting in massive multiple
organ failure.  Newspapers need to be very careful about propagating
misinformation.

Eeesh.

spike

_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat



From spike66 at att.net  Fri Aug 10 00:18:41 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2012 17:18:41 -0700
Subject: [ExI] bexarotene papers
References: <00d401cd75b7$f63dc280$e2b94780$@att.net>
 <1344540609.85734.YahooMailNeo@web126203.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAL_armi4OYiSdOQzg79sANZmJe1Zm_OWzQgD8L-LoSc79wyGmQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <009301cd7687$7da39ef0$78eadcd0$@att.net> 
Message-ID: <00f701cd768d$b2ccb980$18662c80$@att.net>

Never mind, the comment showed up.  Do let us hope the well-off but
desperate family reads the comment section before administering a month's
dosage.

Does anyone here have a buddy or anyone they know at the LA Times they could
call?  It isn't clear how to contact someone in charge.

spike



-----Original Message-----
From: spike [mailto:spike66 at att.net] 
Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2012 5:14 PM
To: 'ExI chat list'
Subject: RE: [ExI] bexarotene papers

I declare another temporary open season on posts regarding bexarotene, thru
the weekend.  I intend to post my brains out on this until that dangerous
error is fixed in the article.

Does anyone here have an existing account on LA Times?  If so, post me back
forthwith, spike66 at att.net, and let me send you something to post in their
comments section on the Targretin article.  Quickly please, let's try to
stop a catastrophe before it happens, thanks.

spike

-----Original Message-----
From: spike [mailto:spike66 at att.net] 
Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2012 5:05 PM
To: 'ExI chat list'
Subject: RE: [ExI] bexarotene papers

My comment isn't showing up.  What do we do now, coach?

spike

-----Original Message-----
From: spike [mailto:spike66 at att.net] 
Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2012 4:51 PM
To: 'ExI chat list'
Subject: RE: [ExI] bexarotene papers

OK, I created an account, logged in and was the first to comment, but the
comment hasn't shown up yet.  Any other ideas?

spike

-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of spike
Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2012 4:34 PM
To: 'ExI chat list'
Subject: Re: [ExI] bexarotene papers


Ethics hipsters, what do I do now?  I see this article, and now how do I get
the message to the LA Times to fix this goddam error forthwith, before some
desperate ill-informed prole takes and stuffs a month's supply of Targretin
into grandma in one afternoon?  Does anyone here know anyone from the Times,
or how does one go about this?  

Help me Obi Wan, and do it riiiight noooow please, immediately.

spike

_______________________________________________


Oy vey, the LA Times today replicated a mistake from early in the cycle back
in February.  An order of magnitude error was made by someone writing "per
day" instead of "per month."  I have seen this error pop up hundreds of
times, and it may have slain patients by now.  

http://www.latimes.com/health/boostershots/la-heb-alzheimers-drug-ethics-201
20809,0,2927327.story

".Second, patients and their advocates must consider whether it is fair for
doctors to begin writing prescriptions for bexarotene for patients with
dementia. The unreimbursed cost of treating an Alzheimer's disease patient
with bexarotene -- anywhere between $1,200 and $2,500 per day out-of-pocket
by one estimate -- would make this a treatment option only for the very
wealthy."

Imagine a really wealthy family with an AD patient, reads the above comment,
says to his son, Junior, you somehow know how to score all kinds of vile
dope to poke into yourself, so take this $10k, go use your contacts, bring
me that much Targretin and don't tell me how or where you got it.  Junior
takes off, comes back an hour later with $10k in Targretin, dad shovels all
of it down grandma's throat over the next 4 to 6 days, patient mysteriously
expires from an acute overdose of bexarotene resulting in massive multiple
organ failure.  Newspapers need to be very careful about propagating
misinformation.

Eeesh.

spike

_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat



From spike66 at att.net  Fri Aug 10 00:24:42 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2012 17:24:42 -0700
Subject: [ExI] bexarotene papers
References: <00d401cd75b7$f63dc280$e2b94780$@att.net>
 <1344540609.85734.YahooMailNeo@web126203.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAL_armi4OYiSdOQzg79sANZmJe1Zm_OWzQgD8L-LoSc79wyGmQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <009301cd7687$7da39ef0$78eadcd0$@att.net> 
Message-ID: <00f801cd768e$89ea7510$9dbf5f30$@att.net>

I'm on hold.  I'm on the phone with them.  Found the email of the author.
Stand by please.

spike

-----Original Message-----
From: spike [mailto:spike66 at att.net] 
Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2012 5:19 PM
To: 'ExI chat list'
Subject: RE: [ExI] bexarotene papers

Never mind, the comment showed up.  Do let us hope the well-off but
desperate family reads the comment section before administering a month's
dosage.

Does anyone here have a buddy or anyone they know at the LA Times they could
call?  It isn't clear how to contact someone in charge.

spike



-----Original Message-----
From: spike [mailto:spike66 at att.net] 
Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2012 5:14 PM
To: 'ExI chat list'
Subject: RE: [ExI] bexarotene papers

I declare another temporary open season on posts regarding bexarotene, thru
the weekend.  I intend to post my brains out on this until that dangerous
error is fixed in the article.

Does anyone here have an existing account on LA Times?  If so, post me back
forthwith, spike66 at att.net, and let me send you something to post in their
comments section on the Targretin article.  Quickly please, let's try to
stop a catastrophe before it happens, thanks.

spike

-----Original Message-----
From: spike [mailto:spike66 at att.net] 
Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2012 5:05 PM
To: 'ExI chat list'
Subject: RE: [ExI] bexarotene papers

My comment isn't showing up.  What do we do now, coach?

spike

-----Original Message-----
From: spike [mailto:spike66 at att.net] 
Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2012 4:51 PM
To: 'ExI chat list'
Subject: RE: [ExI] bexarotene papers

OK, I created an account, logged in and was the first to comment, but the
comment hasn't shown up yet.  Any other ideas?

spike

-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of spike
Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2012 4:34 PM
To: 'ExI chat list'
Subject: Re: [ExI] bexarotene papers


Ethics hipsters, what do I do now?  I see this article, and now how do I get
the message to the LA Times to fix this goddam error forthwith, before some
desperate ill-informed prole takes and stuffs a month's supply of Targretin
into grandma in one afternoon?  Does anyone here know anyone from the Times,
or how does one go about this?  

Help me Obi Wan, and do it riiiight noooow please, immediately.

spike

_______________________________________________


Oy vey, the LA Times today replicated a mistake from early in the cycle back
in February.  An order of magnitude error was made by someone writing "per
day" instead of "per month."  I have seen this error pop up hundreds of
times, and it may have slain patients by now.  

http://www.latimes.com/health/boostershots/la-heb-alzheimers-drug-ethics-201
20809,0,2927327.story

".Second, patients and their advocates must consider whether it is fair for
doctors to begin writing prescriptions for bexarotene for patients with
dementia. The unreimbursed cost of treating an Alzheimer's disease patient
with bexarotene -- anywhere between $1,200 and $2,500 per day out-of-pocket
by one estimate -- would make this a treatment option only for the very
wealthy."

Imagine a really wealthy family with an AD patient, reads the above comment,
says to his son, Junior, you somehow know how to score all kinds of vile
dope to poke into yourself, so take this $10k, go use your contacts, bring
me that much Targretin and don't tell me how or where you got it.  Junior
takes off, comes back an hour later with $10k in Targretin, dad shovels all
of it down grandma's throat over the next 4 to 6 days, patient mysteriously
expires from an acute overdose of bexarotene resulting in massive multiple
organ failure.  Newspapers need to be very careful about propagating
misinformation.

Eeesh.

spike

_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat



From atymes at gmail.com  Thu Aug  9 23:51:31 2012
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2012 16:51:31 -0700
Subject: [ExI] bexarotene papers
In-Reply-To: <009301cd7687$7da39ef0$78eadcd0$@att.net>
References: <00d401cd75b7$f63dc280$e2b94780$@att.net>
 <1344540609.85734.YahooMailNeo@web126203.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAL_armi4OYiSdOQzg79sANZmJe1Zm_OWzQgD8L-LoSc79wyGmQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <009301cd7687$7da39ef0$78eadcd0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNR=CtmaL1M-owXDqrkOUESO_wsFnx-fx72Pc+iez_q00g@mail.gmail.com>

http://www.latimes.com/news/custom/corrections/

On Thu, Aug 9, 2012 at 4:34 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>
> Ethics hipsters, what do I do now?  I see this article, and now how do I get
> the message to the LA Times to fix this goddam error forthwith, before some
> desperate ill-informed prole takes and stuffs a month's supply of Targretin
> into grandma in one afternoon?  Does anyone here know anyone from the Times,
> or how does one go about this?
>
> Help me Obi Wan, and do it riiiight noooow please, immediately.
>
> spike
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> Oy vey, the LA Times today replicated a mistake from early in the cycle back
> in February.  An order of magnitude error was made by someone writing "per
> day" instead of "per month."  I have seen this error pop up hundreds of
> times, and it may have slain patients by now.
>
> http://www.latimes.com/health/boostershots/la-heb-alzheimers-drug-ethics-201
> 20809,0,2927327.story
>
> ".Second, patients and their advocates must consider whether it is fair for
> doctors to begin writing prescriptions for bexarotene for patients with
> dementia. The unreimbursed cost of treating an Alzheimer's disease patient
> with bexarotene -- anywhere between $1,200 and $2,500 per day out-of-pocket
> by one estimate -- would make this a treatment option only for the very
> wealthy."
>
> Imagine a really wealthy family with an AD patient, reads the above comment,
> says to his son, Junior, you somehow know how to score all kinds of vile
> dope to poke into yourself, so take this $10k, go use your contacts, bring
> me that much Targretin and don't tell me how or where you got it.  Junior
> takes off, comes back an hour later with $10k in Targretin, dad shovels all
> of it down grandma's throat over the next 4 to 6 days, patient mysteriously
> expires from an acute overdose of bexarotene resulting in massive multiple
> organ failure.  Newspapers need to be very careful about propagating
> misinformation.
>
> Eeesh.
>
> spike
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From spike66 at att.net  Fri Aug 10 00:45:27 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2012 17:45:27 -0700
Subject: [ExI] bexarotene papers
References: <00d401cd75b7$f63dc280$e2b94780$@att.net>
 <1344540609.85734.YahooMailNeo@web126203.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAL_armi4OYiSdOQzg79sANZmJe1Zm_OWzQgD8L-LoSc79wyGmQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <009301cd7687$7da39ef0$78eadcd0$@att.net>
 <00f201cd768b$d3a092a0$7ae1b7e0$@att.net>
 <CALAdGNQbcdrOpPM21gfDd_gGn=xRArsBgU9Fy2NW41hg_f9VUg@mail.gmail.com> 
Message-ID: <010001cd7691$6fcb6ab0$4f624010$@att.net>


...

>>...Wait for their moderators to get around to approving it.
Which may be some time tomorrow...  Adrian


>...Never mind, got thru, talked to an actual human who sounded as if she
had a genuine brain, thank evolution.  I am watching the online article,
still hasn't been fixed...spike



EXCELLENT!  They FIXED IT!  Now the article reads:

"...The unreimbursed cost of treating an Alzheimer's disease patient with
bexarotene would make this a treatment option only for the very wealthy. And
to the extent that Alzheimer's patients would likely quickly deplete stores
of bexarotene..."

>From the time I saw the goof until the time is was fixed was less than an
hour and a half.  If I had just used my goddam head and found the contact
instead of going into full scale panic and calling for help from the lads on
ExI, this mighta been fixed in half the time, sheesh.

Nearly every day, I thank evolution I decided to not go to medical school.
Hell I probably would have flunked out anyway, and would be lucky if I did,
oy.

spike





From spike66 at att.net  Fri Aug 10 00:33:05 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2012 17:33:05 -0700
Subject: [ExI] bexarotene papers
References: <00d401cd75b7$f63dc280$e2b94780$@att.net>
 <1344540609.85734.YahooMailNeo@web126203.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAL_armi4OYiSdOQzg79sANZmJe1Zm_OWzQgD8L-LoSc79wyGmQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <009301cd7687$7da39ef0$78eadcd0$@att.net> 
Message-ID: <00fe01cd768f$b5ac47e0$2104d7a0$@att.net>

OK cool, I found the email @ of the author, posted my concern, but she on
the east coast, likely gone home for the day, so I got aholt of the Times,
managed to talk them out of the phone number for the editorial chief, who
agreed to blank out the paragraph forthwith until the author can verify and
change the content.

Oy vey.

spike

-----Original Message-----
From: spike [mailto:spike66 at att.net] 
Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2012 5:25 PM
To: 'ExI chat list'
Subject: RE: [ExI] bexarotene papers

I'm on hold.  I'm on the phone with them.  Found the email of the author.
Stand by please.

spike

-----Original Message-----
From: spike [mailto:spike66 at att.net] 
Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2012 5:19 PM
To: 'ExI chat list'
Subject: RE: [ExI] bexarotene papers

Never mind, the comment showed up.  Do let us hope the well-off but
desperate family reads the comment section before administering a month's
dosage.

Does anyone here have a buddy or anyone they know at the LA Times they could
call?  It isn't clear how to contact someone in charge.

spike



-----Original Message-----
From: spike [mailto:spike66 at att.net] 
Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2012 5:14 PM
To: 'ExI chat list'
Subject: RE: [ExI] bexarotene papers

I declare another temporary open season on posts regarding bexarotene, thru
the weekend.  I intend to post my brains out on this until that dangerous
error is fixed in the article.

Does anyone here have an existing account on LA Times?  If so, post me back
forthwith, spike66 at att.net, and let me send you something to post in their
comments section on the Targretin article.  Quickly please, let's try to
stop a catastrophe before it happens, thanks.

spike

-----Original Message-----
From: spike [mailto:spike66 at att.net] 
Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2012 5:05 PM
To: 'ExI chat list'
Subject: RE: [ExI] bexarotene papers

My comment isn't showing up.  What do we do now, coach?

spike

-----Original Message-----
From: spike [mailto:spike66 at att.net] 
Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2012 4:51 PM
To: 'ExI chat list'
Subject: RE: [ExI] bexarotene papers

OK, I created an account, logged in and was the first to comment, but the
comment hasn't shown up yet.  Any other ideas?

spike

-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of spike
Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2012 4:34 PM
To: 'ExI chat list'
Subject: Re: [ExI] bexarotene papers


Ethics hipsters, what do I do now?  I see this article, and now how do I get
the message to the LA Times to fix this goddam error forthwith, before some
desperate ill-informed prole takes and stuffs a month's supply of Targretin
into grandma in one afternoon?  Does anyone here know anyone from the Times,
or how does one go about this?  

Help me Obi Wan, and do it riiiight noooow please, immediately.

spike

_______________________________________________


Oy vey, the LA Times today replicated a mistake from early in the cycle back
in February.  An order of magnitude error was made by someone writing "per
day" instead of "per month."  I have seen this error pop up hundreds of
times, and it may have slain patients by now.  

http://www.latimes.com/health/boostershots/la-heb-alzheimers-drug-ethics-201
20809,0,2927327.story

".Second, patients and their advocates must consider whether it is fair for
doctors to begin writing prescriptions for bexarotene for patients with
dementia. The unreimbursed cost of treating an Alzheimer's disease patient
with bexarotene -- anywhere between $1,200 and $2,500 per day out-of-pocket
by one estimate -- would make this a treatment option only for the very
wealthy."

Imagine a really wealthy family with an AD patient, reads the above comment,
says to his son, Junior, you somehow know how to score all kinds of vile
dope to poke into yourself, so take this $10k, go use your contacts, bring
me that much Targretin and don't tell me how or where you got it.  Junior
takes off, comes back an hour later with $10k in Targretin, dad shovels all
of it down grandma's throat over the next 4 to 6 days, patient mysteriously
expires from an acute overdose of bexarotene resulting in massive multiple
organ failure.  Newspapers need to be very careful about propagating
misinformation.

Eeesh.

spike

_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat



From spike66 at att.net  Fri Aug 10 00:37:41 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2012 17:37:41 -0700
Subject: [ExI] bexarotene papers
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNQbcdrOpPM21gfDd_gGn=xRArsBgU9Fy2NW41hg_f9VUg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <00d401cd75b7$f63dc280$e2b94780$@att.net>
 <1344540609.85734.YahooMailNeo@web126203.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAL_armi4OYiSdOQzg79sANZmJe1Zm_OWzQgD8L-LoSc79wyGmQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <009301cd7687$7da39ef0$78eadcd0$@att.net>
 <00f201cd768b$d3a092a0$7ae1b7e0$@att.net>
 <CALAdGNQbcdrOpPM21gfDd_gGn=xRArsBgU9Fy2NW41hg_f9VUg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00ff01cd7690$59e41360$0dac3a20$@att.net>

>... On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes
Subject: Re: [ExI] bexarotene papers

>...Wait for their moderators to get around to approving it.
Which may be some time tomorrow...


Never mind, got thru, talked to an actual human who sounded as if she had a
genuine brain, thank evolution.  I am watching the online article, still
hasn't been fixed.

There is no time to wait for tomorrow on this sort of thing.  A lot of us
who have an AD family member are on constant google-alert for anything new,
and the LA Times has about a trillion subscribers, so the sooner this is
fixed the more easily I will sleep tonight.

spike



On Thu, Aug 9, 2012 at 5:05 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> My comment isn't showing up.  What do we do now, coach?
>
> spike
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: spike [mailto:spike66 at att.net]
> Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2012 4:51 PM
> To: 'ExI chat list'
> Subject: RE: [ExI] bexarotene papers
>
> OK, I created an account, logged in and was the first to comment, but 
> the comment hasn't shown up yet.  Any other ideas?
>
> spike
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
> [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of spike
> Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2012 4:34 PM
> To: 'ExI chat list'
> Subject: Re: [ExI] bexarotene papers
>
>
> Ethics hipsters, what do I do now?  I see this article, and now how do 
> I get the message to the LA Times to fix this goddam error forthwith, 
> before some desperate ill-informed prole takes and stuffs a month's 
> supply of Targretin into grandma in one afternoon?  Does anyone here 
> know anyone from the Times, or how does one go about this?
>
> Help me Obi Wan, and do it riiiight noooow please, immediately.
>
> spike
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> Oy vey, the LA Times today replicated a mistake from early in the 
> cycle back in February.  An order of magnitude error was made by 
> someone writing "per day" instead of "per month."  I have seen this 
> error pop up hundreds of times, and it may have slain patients by now.
>
> http://www.latimes.com/health/boostershots/la-heb-alzheimers-drug-ethi
> cs-201
> 20809,0,2927327.story
>
> ".Second, patients and their advocates must consider whether it is 
> fair for doctors to begin writing prescriptions for bexarotene for 
> patients with dementia. The unreimbursed cost of treating an 
> Alzheimer's disease patient with bexarotene -- anywhere between $1,200 
> and $2,500 per day out-of-pocket by one estimate -- would make this a 
> treatment option only for the very wealthy."
>
> Imagine a really wealthy family with an AD patient, reads the above 
> comment, says to his son, Junior, you somehow know how to score all 
> kinds of vile dope to poke into yourself, so take this $10k, go use 
> your contacts, bring me that much Targretin and don't tell me how or 
> where you got it.  Junior takes off, comes back an hour later with 
> $10k in Targretin, dad shovels all of it down grandma's throat over 
> the next 4 to 6 days, patient mysteriously expires from an acute 
> overdose of bexarotene resulting in massive multiple organ failure.  
> Newspapers need to be very careful about propagating misinformation.
>
> Eeesh.
>
> spike
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat



From spike66 at att.net  Fri Aug 10 01:04:26 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2012 18:04:26 -0700
Subject: [ExI] bexarotene papers
References: <00d401cd75b7$f63dc280$e2b94780$@att.net>
 <1344540609.85734.YahooMailNeo@web126203.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAL_armi4OYiSdOQzg79sANZmJe1Zm_OWzQgD8L-LoSc79wyGmQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <009301cd7687$7da39ef0$78eadcd0$@att.net>
 <00f201cd768b$d3a092a0$7ae1b7e0$@att.net>
 <CALAdGNQbcdrOpPM21gfDd_gGn=xRArsBgU9Fy2NW41hg_f9VUg@mail.gmail.com> 
Message-ID: <010601cd7694$1670a1d0$4351e570$@att.net>

>...EXCELLENT!  They FIXED IT!  Now the article reads:

>..."The unreimbursed cost of treating an Alzheimer's disease patient with
bexarotene would make this a treatment option only for the very wealthy..."
spike

What must it look like from inside the mind of an Alzheimer's patient?  From
our point of view, the decline is long and gradual, heartbreaking.  But from
the point of view of the patient, they are unable to recall the decline, not
sensing the development of the disease.  From their point of view, they were
well just yesterday.  Today, they are lost in their own home, suddenly
finding themselves old, not recognizing themselves in the mirror, married
over half a century to one who now appears to be a stranger.  Oy vey, what a
cruel disease.

spike





From spike66 at att.net  Fri Aug 10 01:16:23 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2012 18:16:23 -0700
Subject: [ExI] bexarotene papers
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNR=CtmaL1M-owXDqrkOUESO_wsFnx-fx72Pc+iez_q00g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <00d401cd75b7$f63dc280$e2b94780$@att.net>
 <1344540609.85734.YahooMailNeo@web126203.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAL_armi4OYiSdOQzg79sANZmJe1Zm_OWzQgD8L-LoSc79wyGmQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <009301cd7687$7da39ef0$78eadcd0$@att.net>
 <CALAdGNR=CtmaL1M-owXDqrkOUESO_wsFnx-fx72Pc+iez_q00g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <010701cd7695$c1f66ed0$45e34c70$@att.net>


>... On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes
Subject: Re: [ExI] bexarotene papers


>...http://www.latimes.com/news/custom/corrections/



Thanks Adrian.  I found an end-run during my panic session, before this came
up on the ExI list.  The LA Times was most helpful once I explained that
there was an error in their article that could cause harm bigtime, possibly
a fatality.  The first time, they transferred me to a disconnected number.
I called back and they were most apologetic, keeping me connected until they
could verify successful transfer.  I suggested they just blank out that
paragraph until they could reach the author of the article.  The editorial
chief took the initiative and modified the article herself.

The error was unfortunate, but they acted in a responsible and timely manner
to fix it.   Well done, LA Times.  

spike



From pharos at gmail.com  Fri Aug 10 07:03:37 2012
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 08:03:37 +0100
Subject: [ExI] bexarotene papers
In-Reply-To: <010701cd7695$c1f66ed0$45e34c70$@att.net>
References: <00d401cd75b7$f63dc280$e2b94780$@att.net>
 <1344540609.85734.YahooMailNeo@web126203.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAL_armi4OYiSdOQzg79sANZmJe1Zm_OWzQgD8L-LoSc79wyGmQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <009301cd7687$7da39ef0$78eadcd0$@att.net>
 <CALAdGNR=CtmaL1M-owXDqrkOUESO_wsFnx-fx72Pc+iez_q00g@mail.gmail.com>
 <010701cd7695$c1f66ed0$45e34c70$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAL_armiCQbN+qS6=JGBMxmUME0u+GQ89nxnpnmP5SebzHY9EOw@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 2:16 AM, spike wrote:
> The error was unfortunate, but they acted in a responsible and timely manner
> to fix it.   Well done, LA Times.
>
>


The Alzheimer's support groups are very keen on exchanging any
information they have, so I think they all know how much Bexarotene
costs. As do their doctors. Though, as you say, nobody knows what the
dosage should be.

Anybody wanting to try it would surely at least do a google search on
costs first, so I doubt if this pricing mistake has caused fatalities.
If anything, it might have saved lives by being too expensive for
people to try.

BillK


From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Fri Aug 10 10:25:48 2012
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 03:25:48 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Explaining technical matters
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB6A5RxdZPMWn7PYiaSZyzZn3gNn7AR5TOUc_U_RmLgWgg@mail.gmail.com>

I recently got a comment back from someone who is reading my draft
paper on laser propulsion and power satellites.

^^^^^^^^^^^^

>       To me the beauty of laser propulsion comes from its ability to use
> water rather than hydrogen as propellant.   Water is stable, dense and
> user-friendly, all the advantages that hydrogen lacks.

True statements.  However, water isn't going to give a better exhaust
velocity than SSME of 4.5 km/s, nor can it be burned with air to get
the first 25 km and 1600 m/s (2000 m/s if you launch from the
equator).  Starting that high, the aerodynamics of the larger vehicle
to hold hydrogen doesn't matter much because it's in close to a
vacuum.  LEO is 8 km/s so the needed delta V is 6 km/s.

The exhaust velocity ratio for the same temperature will be square
root of the molecular weight ratio.  For hydrogen and water that's
2/18, so the difference is a factor of three.  Hydrogen at 2700 deg K
is about 7.5 km/s, so steam at that temperature would be about 2.5
km/s.

The mass fraction for hydrogen would be 1 - e^-(6/7.5) or 55% fuel,
45% payload, structure, etc.

For water, 1 - e^-(6/2.5) or 91% water and 9% for everything else.

For a 20% structure fraction, a laser heated hydrogen vehicle gets
~25% to LEO, water heated to the same temperature gets -11% to orbit
(both cases starting at 2 km/s).

Hydrogen has been used in big rockets all the way back to the second
stage of the Saturn V.  It isn't _that_ hard to work with.  In fact,
the hydrogen load in a Skylon is a few tons less than was used in the
Saturn V second stage.

The difference is we would be flying 3 times an hour.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I don't know how to express non-linear equations to where the masses
(or even technically astute people) are going to appreciate the
difference in performance between laser heated water and laser heated
hydrogen without looking into the "rocket science" of the situation.

This is part of a proposal to displace fossil fuels with less
expensive solar energy from space.  It's the only energy source I know
about that scales large enough and is potentially cheap enough to do
that.  The consequences of not doing something about low cost energy
could be a die back of several billion people.  It should be important
to the masses since they are the ones who are most likely to die, but
I don't have a clue as to how the concepts could be explained.

Any ideas?

Keith


From pharos at gmail.com  Fri Aug 10 12:08:01 2012
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 13:08:01 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Explaining technical matters
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB6A5RxdZPMWn7PYiaSZyzZn3gNn7AR5TOUc_U_RmLgWgg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB6A5RxdZPMWn7PYiaSZyzZn3gNn7AR5TOUc_U_RmLgWgg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armj2BnAsYhPEjC-LjDZWYUjYwGS5f2Krgi8POAPvmrZoKQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 11:25 AM, Keith Henson wrote:
> For a 20% structure fraction, a laser heated hydrogen vehicle gets
> ~25% to LEO, water heated to the same temperature gets -11% to orbit
> (both cases starting at 2 km/s).
>
> Hydrogen has been used in big rockets all the way back to the second
> stage of the Saturn V.  It isn't _that_ hard to work with.  In fact,
> the hydrogen load in a Skylon is a few tons less than was used in the
> Saturn V second stage.
>
> The difference is we would be flying 3 times an hour.
>
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> I don't know how to express non-linear equations to where the masses
> (or even technically astute people) are going to appreciate the
> difference in performance between laser heated water and laser heated
> hydrogen without looking into the "rocket science" of the situation.
>
>

I'm not sure what you are asking for, but how about.......

Produce tables showing samples of each type of rocket with various
starting weights and weight delivered to LEO and laser energy
consumed.
You could add intermediate stages showing rocket speed and remaining
weight of fuel and energy consumed so far.

The differences between the rocket fuel methods should be obvious.

(Or are you asking for an explanation that avoids calculating the above tables?)

This sounds like a Spike spreadsheet special.   ;)


BillK


From msd001 at gmail.com  Fri Aug 10 12:18:00 2012
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 08:18:00 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Explaining technical matters
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB6A5RxdZPMWn7PYiaSZyzZn3gNn7AR5TOUc_U_RmLgWgg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB6A5RxdZPMWn7PYiaSZyzZn3gNn7AR5TOUc_U_RmLgWgg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOJFdb+qPuDr7H7gQePzeJB2CiDrz9TyzskG5m0U0cHTRq7hrw@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 6:25 AM, Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> wrote:
> I don't know how to express non-linear equations to where the masses
> (or even technically astute people) are going to appreciate the
> difference in performance between laser heated water and laser heated
> hydrogen without looking into the "rocket science" of the situation.
>
> Any ideas?

Probably no.  I imagine Joe six-pack would have as difficult a time
convincing you of the "fun" of his Friday night too.

My wife asked a very astute question:  Why has landing on Mars gotten
so much more attention than the confirmation of the Higgs boson?  I
suppose it has a lot to do with the fact that people can imagine the
rover being "like a car" that went all the way to another planet while
fundamental particles in a pantheon of science is too abstract for
most.

Perhaps by analogy?  Compare late 1800's coal-fired steam engine with
modern maglev trains..  or some principle that's even easier to see: a
mylar balloon filled with helium vs latex balloon filled with exhaled
breath.  Which one floats in air?  Why?


From bbenzai at yahoo.com  Fri Aug 10 13:44:23 2012
From: bbenzai at yahoo.com (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 06:44:23 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] bexarotene papers
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1315.1344562204.17650.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <1344606263.74465.YahooMailClassic@web114420.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

"spike" <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

> 
> EXCELLENT!  They FIXED IT!  Now the article reads:
> 
> "...The unreimbursed cost of treating an Alzheimer's disease patient with
> bexarotene would make this a treatment option only for the very wealthy. And
> to the extent that Alzheimer's patients would likely quickly deplete stores
> of bexarotene..."


Spike, I don't call this 'fixing it'.

They've just reworded it to omit any mention of time.  This is still consistent with the original wording, so anybody reading it will not realise it was wrong.

To fix it, they need to explicitly issue an erratum, saying the previous version was wrong, and it should have said 'per month'.  I doubt that will ever happen now.  :<

Ben Zaiboc



From bbenzai at yahoo.com  Fri Aug 10 14:01:41 2012
From: bbenzai at yahoo.com (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 07:01:41 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Explaining technical matters
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1344600001.742.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <1344607301.33948.YahooMailClassic@web114411.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> wrote:

> I don't know how to express non-linear equations to where
> the masses
> (or even technically astute people) are going to appreciate
> the
> difference in performance between laser heated water and
> laser heated
> hydrogen without looking into the "rocket science" of the
> situation.

...
> I don't have a clue as to how the concepts could be
> explained.
> 
> Any ideas?


Perhaps you don't need to explain the ideas in detail.  Perhaps it would be enough to just state the facts, make it clear that you have the science to back your statements up, and anybody who wishes to know the details can see them here... (link to a page with the gnarly details).

The vast majority of people (not the people reading this, of course!) don't have an engineer's or a scientist's mindset, they aren't interested in the details, they just want to be told 'the truth'.  If this wasn't the case, religions wouldn't have the hold that they do.

Saying something like "We can get a lot more speed out of hydrogen than out of water, because it's lighter" might make you cringe, but it makes enough superficial sense to satisfy most people, I reckon (and 'science journalists' will love it).  Or it might be better to just state the fact, Hydrogen = faster, and leave it at that.


Ben Zaiboc



From spike66 at att.net  Fri Aug 10 14:41:53 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 07:41:53 -0700
Subject: [ExI] bexarotene papers
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armiCQbN+qS6=JGBMxmUME0u+GQ89nxnpnmP5SebzHY9EOw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <00d401cd75b7$f63dc280$e2b94780$@att.net>
 <1344540609.85734.YahooMailNeo@web126203.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAL_armi4OYiSdOQzg79sANZmJe1Zm_OWzQgD8L-LoSc79wyGmQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <009301cd7687$7da39ef0$78eadcd0$@att.net>
 <CALAdGNR=CtmaL1M-owXDqrkOUESO_wsFnx-fx72Pc+iez_q00g@mail.gmail.com>
 <010701cd7695$c1f66ed0$45e34c70$@att.net>
 <CAL_armiCQbN+qS6=JGBMxmUME0u+GQ89nxnpnmP5SebzHY9EOw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <003501cd7706$498cdd50$dca697f0$@att.net>

>... On Behalf Of BillK
Subject: Re: [ExI] bexarotene papers

On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 2:16 AM, spike wrote:
>>... The error was unfortunate, but they acted in a responsible and timely
manner
> to fix it.   Well done, LA Times.


>...The Alzheimer's support groups are very keen on exchanging any
information they have, so I think they all know how much Bexarotene costs.
As do their doctors. Though, as you say, nobody knows what the dosage should
be...

Ja, but the world is swamped with black market and counterfeit Targretin.
As we discussed in February, families facing 8k per month elder-care bills
will try anything.

>...Anybody wanting to try it would surely at least do a google search on
costs first...

I would like to think so, but on this vacation I came into contact with
several people who do not use the internet at all, have no computer, and no
interest in getting one.  The mind boggles.

>... so I doubt if this pricing mistake has caused fatalities...

Ja probably not.  I hope not.  The factor of 30 error is large enough that
anyone with three milligrams of brain would realize they shouldn't be trying
to feed grandma 30 pills on one day, never mind 60.

>...  If anything, it might have saved lives by being too expensive for
people to try.  BillK

Hmmm, that is one way to look at it.  Let's hope you are right BillK.  If
Targretin is 1.2k per month, it would be worth trying for a family facing
the imminent cost of elder care, but at 1.2k per day, not.

spike

_______________________________________________





From spike66 at att.net  Fri Aug 10 14:45:36 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 07:45:36 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Explaining technical matters
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armj2BnAsYhPEjC-LjDZWYUjYwGS5f2Krgi8POAPvmrZoKQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB6A5RxdZPMWn7PYiaSZyzZn3gNn7AR5TOUc_U_RmLgWgg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armj2BnAsYhPEjC-LjDZWYUjYwGS5f2Krgi8POAPvmrZoKQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <003601cd7706$ce0510c0$6a0f3240$@att.net>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of BillK
...
>
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>>... I don't know how to express non-linear equations to where the masses 
> (or even technically astute people) are going to appreciate the 
> difference in performance between laser heated water and laser heated 
> hydrogen without looking into the "rocket science" of the situation.
>
>

I'm not sure what you are asking for, but how about.......

>...Produce tables showing samples of each type of rocket with various
starting weights and weight delivered to LEO and laser energy consumed.
...
>...This sounds like a Spike spreadsheet special.   ;)  BillK
_______________________________________________

Ja, we could make up tables for that, but right now I gotta run, guests in
town.  Spreadsheets are our friends.

spike



From spike66 at att.net  Fri Aug 10 14:52:13 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 07:52:13 -0700
Subject: [ExI] bexarotene papers
In-Reply-To: <1344606263.74465.YahooMailClassic@web114420.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.1315.1344562204.17650.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <1344606263.74465.YahooMailClassic@web114420.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <003701cd7707$baaf4ee0$300deca0$@att.net>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Ben Zaiboc
Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 6:44 AM
To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
Subject: Re: [ExI] bexarotene papers

"spike" <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

> 
> EXCELLENT!  They FIXED IT!  Now the article reads:
> 
>> "...The unreimbursed cost of treating an Alzheimer's disease patient 
> with bexarotene would make this a treatment option only for the very 
> wealthy. And to the extent that Alzheimer's patients would likely 
> quickly deplete stores of bexarotene..."


>...Spike, I don't call this 'fixing it'.

>...They've just reworded it to omit any mention of time.  This is still
consistent with the original wording, so anybody reading it will not realise
it was wrong.

>...To fix it, they need to explicitly issue an erratum, saying the previous
version was wrong, and it should have said 'per month'.  I doubt that will
ever happen now.  :<  Ben Zaiboc

_______________________________________________

Ben that occurred to me too, but I was in a panic to stop some silly prole
from overdosing their AD relative with a factor of 30 overdose.
Furthermore, once this correction is made, the statement is no longer true.
At 1200 to 2400 a month, Targretin is not an option only for the very
wealthy.  That is a fairly typical drug cost for plenty of conditions.  An
average family could carry that load, if the stuff works, and doesn't do
more harm than good.  There are plenty of ways to cut back and come up with
1200 to 2400 a month, and this is waaay cheaper than elder care, way
cheaper.

Now that the panic has subsided, I am open to suggestions on how to proceed.
I posted a correction in their commentary section, so perhaps I will let it
go at that.

spike



From kellycoinguy at gmail.com  Fri Aug 10 15:28:04 2012
From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 09:28:04 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Bucky Balls Could Double Your Lifespan
In-Reply-To: <1344538868.80049.YahooMailNeo@web126205.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <CADDVf2KeUUqFkpwrKxdAOf05c1pe4qUpJhNZ+bR_sYdvm=hU7Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <1344538868.80049.YahooMailNeo@web126205.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAPy8RwZZEoD6k2YDf-aMm9zrBq_vg3dRJ70Hfey-cKks4Hs=aA@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Aug 9, 2012 at 1:01 PM, Dan <dan_ust at yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Thursday, August 9, 2012 5:10 AM J.R. Jones <mrjones2020 at gmail.com>
> But my guess is it's easy, from the armchair
> to talk about how you'd rather die than, say, have to brush your teeth,
> floss, shower, etc. when you could be nice and dead in the ground rotting,
> but when the option is actually available people will almost always choose
> life.

So how many here actually floss daily? I don't. It probably is one of
the few things available today that actually would make a difference.
Yet I can't get out of my armchair to do it...

I also don't eat the very most healthy food. Pretty good, but I
occasionally have a burger and fries...

I like the idea of life extension, but I envision something dramatic,
a pill, a shot, something that would make a big difference rather than
a hundred little things that all added up make a little bit of a
difference.

-Kelly


From pharos at gmail.com  Fri Aug 10 16:06:17 2012
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 17:06:17 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Bucky Balls Could Double Your Lifespan
In-Reply-To: <CAPy8RwZZEoD6k2YDf-aMm9zrBq_vg3dRJ70Hfey-cKks4Hs=aA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADDVf2KeUUqFkpwrKxdAOf05c1pe4qUpJhNZ+bR_sYdvm=hU7Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <1344538868.80049.YahooMailNeo@web126205.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAPy8RwZZEoD6k2YDf-aMm9zrBq_vg3dRJ70Hfey-cKks4Hs=aA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armjy3NM+F6Xh9QG3f3A-qjQ_u36KMDOtsz8KwUXL6JGq3g@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 4:28 PM, Kelly Anderson wrote:
> I like the idea of life extension, but I envision something dramatic,
> a pill, a shot, something that would make a big difference rather than
> a hundred little things that all added up make a little bit of a
> difference.
>
>

Ageing is complicated.  Like an old car, some bits are wearing out
gradually and some bits fail instantaneously.

You need regular maintenance, replacing failed bits and cleaning,
lubricating and strengthening the older parts. Then you get unexpected
problems turning up that you haven't encountered before, because no
car ever lasted this long before.

It is unlikely one treatment will affect everything. Though I would go
for looking after the immune system as a top priority.

BillK


From kellycoinguy at gmail.com  Fri Aug 10 15:06:13 2012
From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 09:06:13 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Explaining technical matters
In-Reply-To: <CAOJFdb+qPuDr7H7gQePzeJB2CiDrz9TyzskG5m0U0cHTRq7hrw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB6A5RxdZPMWn7PYiaSZyzZn3gNn7AR5TOUc_U_RmLgWgg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOJFdb+qPuDr7H7gQePzeJB2CiDrz9TyzskG5m0U0cHTRq7hrw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPy8RwaX_44j8Z_1mn7DDUZAe+Wb5UEPOM3+NT_k2BbjyXCe4A@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 6:18 AM, Mike Dougherty <msd001 at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 6:25 AM, Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> wrote:
>> I don't know how to express non-linear equations to where the masses
>> (or even technically astute people) are going to appreciate the
>> difference in performance between laser heated water and laser heated
>> hydrogen without looking into the "rocket science" of the situation.
>>
>> Any ideas?
>
> Probably no.  I imagine Joe six-pack would have as difficult a time
> convincing you of the "fun" of his Friday night too.
>
> My wife asked a very astute question:  Why has landing on Mars gotten
> so much more attention than the confirmation of the Higgs boson?  I
> suppose it has a lot to do with the fact that people can imagine the
> rover being "like a car" that went all the way to another planet while
> fundamental particles in a pantheon of science is too abstract for
> most.

Perhaps it is also politically motivated on the part of journalists.
One news item I heard indicated that NASA was about to lose funding,
and that this could be just the boost in the arm they need to get
funding back on track... Just a thought. If you are a journalist,
would you rather write about Higgs, or Mars? I would vote for mars if
I were a journalist. Thank Zeus I am not!

Your thoughts are equally good.

-Kelly


From rtomek at ceti.pl  Fri Aug 10 17:22:53 2012
From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola)
Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 19:22:53 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] Explaining technical matters
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB6A5RxdZPMWn7PYiaSZyzZn3gNn7AR5TOUc_U_RmLgWgg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB6A5RxdZPMWn7PYiaSZyzZn3gNn7AR5TOUc_U_RmLgWgg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1208101907200.28939@tau.ceti.pl>

On Fri, 10 Aug 2012, Keith Henson wrote:

> I recently got a comment back from someone who is reading my draft
> paper on laser propulsion and power satellites.
> 
[...]
> 
> I don't know how to express non-linear equations to where the masses
> (or even technically astute people) are going to appreciate the
> difference in performance between laser heated water and laser heated
> hydrogen without looking into the "rocket science" of the situation.
> 
> This is part of a proposal to displace fossil fuels with less
> expensive solar energy from space.  It's the only energy source I know
> about that scales large enough and is potentially cheap enough to do
> that.  The consequences of not doing something about low cost energy
> could be a die back of several billion people.  It should be important
> to the masses since they are the ones who are most likely to die, but
> I don't have a clue as to how the concepts could be explained.
> 
> Any ideas?

I would say, while Mr Paris Sixpack and his wife Helen Sixpack do not see 
reason to care much about mass extinction (including their own, perhaps), 
they are still able to make rational short-term decisions. For example, 
they know it requires money to buy beer and do laundry and dishwashing. 

Explain, in down-to-ground terms, how cheaper energy translates into 
cheaper costs of life, and they will carry you on their hands.

But prepare to be dropped on your head as soon as they forget your name in 
favour of some pop singer.

BTW, it is quite possible both Paris and Helen have some philosophical 
problems of their own, like the reason to live in a world where they 
cannot see the reason to live. So it's not like they are retarded, they 
just have no mental tools to assess whether you are trying to sell them 
some strange kind of Bible or maybe a real salvation. Or to tell Jesus 
Christ from Christo Buddy, a magician from Oriental Circus - at least not 
until it gets into resurrection contest...

Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.      **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home    **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...      **
**                                                                 **
** Tomasz Rola          mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com             **


From johnkclark at gmail.com  Sat Aug 11 05:11:43 2012
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2012 01:11:43 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Bucky Balls Could Double Your Lifespan
In-Reply-To: <CAPy8RwZZEoD6k2YDf-aMm9zrBq_vg3dRJ70Hfey-cKks4Hs=aA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADDVf2KeUUqFkpwrKxdAOf05c1pe4qUpJhNZ+bR_sYdvm=hU7Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <1344538868.80049.YahooMailNeo@web126205.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAPy8RwZZEoD6k2YDf-aMm9zrBq_vg3dRJ70Hfey-cKks4Hs=aA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv0dRKOW9Ybe8puNWwd0NQFKw-ccZYCa30M5zYBUeHwi1g@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 11:28 AM, Kelly Anderson <kellycoinguy at gmail.com>wrote:

> I like the idea of life extension, but I envision something dramatic,
> a pill, a shot, something that would make a big difference rather than
> a hundred little things


Right now the one thing that would have the most dramatic effect on life
expectancy would be to stop smoking, but millions won't, in fact every day
thousands of people start smoking. Smoking kills far more people than all
illegal drugs put together.

  John K Clark
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From bbenzai at yahoo.com  Sat Aug 11 12:44:34 2012
From: bbenzai at yahoo.com (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2012 05:44:34 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] bexarotene papers
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1344686401.23941.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <1344689074.12802.YahooMailClassic@web114419.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

"spike" <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> 
> Ben that occurred to me too, but I was in a panic to stop
> some silly prole
> from overdosing their AD relative with a factor of 30
> overdose.
> Furthermore, once this correction is made, the statement is
> no longer true.
> At 1200 to 2400 a month, Targretin is not an option only for
> the very
> wealthy.? That is a fairly typical drug cost for plenty
> of conditions.? An
> average family could carry that load, if the stuff works,
> and doesn't do
> more harm than good.? There are plenty of ways to cut
> back and come up with
> 1200 to 2400 a month, and this is waaay cheaper than elder
> care, way
> cheaper.


Right you are, Spike.  I'm forgetting, USD 2400 != GBP 2400.


Ben Zaiboc



From spike66 at att.net  Sat Aug 11 15:08:02 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2012 08:08:02 -0700
Subject: [ExI] bexarotene papers
In-Reply-To: <1344689074.12802.YahooMailClassic@web114419.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.1.1344686401.23941.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <1344689074.12802.YahooMailClassic@web114419.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <005e01cd77d3$1afceac0$50f6c040$@att.net>

>... On Behalf Of Ben Zaiboc
>...Subject: Re: [ExI] bexarotene papers

>..."spike" <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> 
>>...? There are plenty of ways to cut back and come up with
> 1200 to 2400 a month, and this is waaay cheaper than elder care, way 
> cheaper.


>...Right you are, Spike.  I'm forgetting, USD 2400 != GBP 2400...Ben Zaiboc

_______________________________________________


2400 US is about 1500 pounds or 2000 euros.  There are families around here
that spend that much on alcohol.

Elder care on the other hand, *will*ruin*your*ass*dot*com.  There are
government funded options, but these are a nightmare.  I do know this from
firsthand experience.  It is no mystery.  To educate yourself, go visit a
nice privately funded elder care facility.  Go ahead, don't be afraid, do
it.  Scratch that, be afraid.  But go do it anyway, for you need to know
this my friends.

Now look around and try to imagine running this facility for about a third
of the money.  Imagine yourself the director, running the place on Medicare.
Cut two thirds of your cost.  It isn't as simple as picking  2/3 of the
staff and letting them go; you still have to pay the same amount on the
mortgage or rent, the utilities, you still have a pile of government
regulations to meet, with more being added every day, as well as the threat
of those government funds being reduced in the future, for the current US
government spending rate relies on borrowing to cover a twelve orders of
magnitude annual deficit, with neither major political party offering any
credible long term solutions.

Oy vey, what an onerous moral dilemma is this.

If you haven't done so, go visit an elder care facility. 

spike




From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Sat Aug 11 18:47:39 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2012 20:47:39 +0200
Subject: [ExI] We need fresh ideas!
In-Reply-To: <1344295926.2849.YahooMailNeo@web161703.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <1344295926.2849.YahooMailNeo@web161703.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a688oAR+d+AXkaEFWb+56gUbSPWSv5u2AhsR9YE6jSVww@mail.gmail.com>

On 7 August 2012 01:32, david pizer <pizerdavid at yahoo.com> wrote:

> *So the next best thing* would be to create cryopreservation technology
> now that would allow patients to be prepared so well (at legal death) that
> doctors in the future can revive them.
>

Why should we not allow for "turistic" cryonics?

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From pharos at gmail.com  Sat Aug 11 19:34:36 2012
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2012 20:34:36 +0100
Subject: [ExI] We need fresh ideas!
In-Reply-To: <CAPoR7a688oAR+d+AXkaEFWb+56gUbSPWSv5u2AhsR9YE6jSVww@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1344295926.2849.YahooMailNeo@web161703.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <CAPoR7a688oAR+d+AXkaEFWb+56gUbSPWSv5u2AhsR9YE6jSVww@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armiczuqEfs6mBVFZOjQcpPjxNmdJcrY6dZsVQG8YjQPP5Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Aug 11, 2012 at 7:47 PM, Stefano Vaj wrote:
> Why should we not allow for "turistic" cryonics?
>
>

"turistic" means "tourism".  :)

I think this could well appeal to some people. Hibernating for a few
years as means of time travel to visit the future has possibilities.
Especially if you have a terminal disease where the cure is known, but
needs five years to be developed into a useable treatment for humans.

This also bypasses all the legal problems about whether dead people
can own stuff, as they are not dead - just hibernating. It also
bypasses all the problems about recreating a vitrified body. Overall,
a much simpler procedure.


BillK


From msd001 at gmail.com  Sat Aug 11 20:43:35 2012
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2012 16:43:35 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Bucky Balls Could Double Your Lifespan
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv0dRKOW9Ybe8puNWwd0NQFKw-ccZYCa30M5zYBUeHwi1g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADDVf2KeUUqFkpwrKxdAOf05c1pe4qUpJhNZ+bR_sYdvm=hU7Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <1344538868.80049.YahooMailNeo@web126205.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAPy8RwZZEoD6k2YDf-aMm9zrBq_vg3dRJ70Hfey-cKks4Hs=aA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv0dRKOW9Ybe8puNWwd0NQFKw-ccZYCa30M5zYBUeHwi1g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOJFdbL=VXY9wCwU87EB8seDi19pySO_5Hyyu6Vv8mLYs1LMEA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Aug 11, 2012 at 1:11 AM, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:
> thousands of people start smoking. Smoking kills far more people than all
> illegal drugs put together.

I'm pretty sure if you took all the illegal drugs together it'd kill
you quicker than smoking.  Well, some of those illegal drugs have to
be smoked, but whatever.  I knew what you meant and you know I'm just
being silly.


From spike66 at att.net  Sat Aug 11 22:29:21 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2012 15:29:21 -0700
Subject: [ExI] self driving cars again
Message-ID: <005c01cd7810$c1549c50$43fdd4f0$@att.net>

 

 

http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2012/08/googles-self-driving-c
ars-300-000-miles-logged-not-a-single-accident-under-computer-control/260926
/

 

 

Ever since Google began designing its self-driving cars, they've wanted to
build cars that go beyond the capabilities of human-piloted vehicles, cars
that are much, much safer. When Sebastian Thrun announced the project in
2010, he wrote
<http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2010/10/what-were-driving-at.html> ,
"According to the World Health Organization, more than 1.2 million lives are
lost every year in road traffic accidents. We believe our technology has the
potential to cut that number, perhaps by as much as half."

New data indicate that Google's on the right path. Earlier this week the
company announced
<http://googleblog.blogspot.co.uk/2012/08/the-self-driving-car-logs-more-mil
es-on.html>  that the self-driving cars have now logged some 300,000 miles
and "there hasn't been a single accident under computer control." (
<http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/10/science/10google.html> The New York Times
did note in a 2010 article that a self-driving car was rear-ended while
stopped at a traffic light, so Google must not be counting the incidents
that were the fault of flawed humans.

Woohoo!  Way to go, Thrun!  

 

Work quickly lads, please.  I have six parents who need this technology
riiiight nooooow.  Between all six, they own 11 cars, and will gladly give
you all of them for three self-drivers, one for each couple.

 

I thought of an interesting idea.  I have a relative who really wants to go
touring the northwest, but she isn't a good enough driver and has no
companion.  She was married to the same man for 58 years before he passed
away about 8 yrs ago.  Now she wants to go touring one last time, but does
not want to remarry and considers it improper to shack up, even at age
nearly 90.  She is in terrific shape for her age and has pleeeeenty of
money, plenty.  She doesn't want to hire a driver, but wants to go road
touring for a few weeks, one last time, just once.  

 

With this tech, we could perhaps rig up a nifty little one-up camper
motorhome.  It wouldn't need to be much for a single person, especially a
small one, like my great aunt.  I bet a Ford Econoline van would be plenty
for that application.

 

Stanford lad, work quickly please, hurry.

 

spike

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From spike66 at att.net  Sat Aug 11 23:22:48 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2012 16:22:48 -0700
Subject: [ExI] self driving cars again
In-Reply-To: <005c01cd7810$c1549c50$43fdd4f0$@att.net>
References: <005c01cd7810$c1549c50$43fdd4f0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <006c01cd7818$38eb5ef0$aac21cd0$@att.net>

 

 

From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of spike
Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2012 3:29 PM
To: 'ExI chat list'
Subject: [ExI] self driving cars again

 

 

 

http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2012/08/googles-self-driving-c
ars-300-000-miles-logged-not-a-single-accident-under-computer-control/260926
/

 

 

>.I thought of an interesting idea.  I have a relative who really wants to
go touring the northwest, but she isn't a good enough driver and has no
companion.  ...  She doesn't want to hire a driver, but wants to go road
touring for a few weeks, one last time, just once.  spike

 

Oh there are buttloads of money to be made here.

 

If one has elderly relatives and is close to them, one is introduced to a
whole nuther world, of which younger people are generally and blissfully
unaware.  There are skerJILLIONs of older people, and this includes a lot of
those who have plenty of money and are eager to do things like I suggested
above, go solo touring in a self-driving motorhome or camper.  The reasons
for this are perfectly understandable: the elders often have special medical
needs and want to set up their medications and devices before they go.  This
is generally incompatible with staying in hotels, but would work just fine
for a camper.

 

My great aunt knows her time is short and only wants one more tour, just
one.  She does not want to actually own the camper, but would rent it,
eagerly paying a big premium.  If one could buy a self-driving camper, one
could rent it and keep it on the road all summer if not all year around.
With the thing programmed to go only the speed limit, and most of the miles
on the freeway, that under-worked engine would never even realize it has
been sold.  It would be as good as new after years of such service.

 

Furthermore, it creates a new market for something I haven't seen in
tragically many years, since my own misspent youth: a full service gas
station.  I haven't seen one of those in California since about the early
90s.  Are there any of them still around?  If a 90 year old single geezer
came riding into town, she would gladly pay 20 or 30 cents a gallon more for
some lad to come out and wash her windows and pump her gas, perhaps look at
the tires and check the oil.

 

Young people, I am not kidding: back in the olden days, gas stations hired
guys to do that, for every customer.  It was so creepy!  I don't like having
people do for me that which I can do myself.  By my great aunt really loves
it and misses that.  She has plenty of money and no children.  She is an
ideal candidate for that technology and that service.  She has pleeeenty of
friends just like her.  We could set up full service gas stations and
program the auto-campers to drive to those stations, or perhaps have a local
slacker who is paged by an incoming geezer, who then comes over and performs
the services for a tip.

 

Hey wait, better idea!  We could have on-call harlots who are paged by an
incoming lonely single geezer.  He or she just shows up at the local
station, checks over the van, fills it with gas, services the horny geezer,
collects the cash and off they go to the next, um, pit stop so to speak.
The elder returns to assisted living with tales of grand adventure to rapt
attention from the other singletons, and you fill in the rest.

 

spike

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From spike66 at att.net  Sun Aug 12 00:10:29 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2012 17:10:29 -0700
Subject: [ExI] self driving cars again
In-Reply-To: <006c01cd7818$38eb5ef0$aac21cd0$@att.net>
References: <005c01cd7810$c1549c50$43fdd4f0$@att.net>
 <006c01cd7818$38eb5ef0$aac21cd0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <008d01cd781e$e2832550$a7896ff0$@att.net>

 

 

From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of spike
Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2012 4:23 PM
To: 'ExI chat list'
Subject: Re: [ExI] self driving cars again

 

>.Young people, I am not kidding: back in the olden days, gas stations hired
guys to do that, for every customer.  It was so creepy!  I don't like having
people do for me that which I can do myself.  But my great aunt really loves
it and misses that. perhaps have a local slacker who is paged by an incoming
geezer, who then comes over and performs the services for a tip.

 

Actually the concept could be extended to commercial campgrounds.  The solo
tourist could program the camper to pull into special campsites where some
local unemployed youth would come in, plug in the AC power, drain the gray
water and black water tanks, fill with fresh water and gas and check the
tires etc.

 

>.Hey wait, better idea!  We could have on-call harlots who are paged by an
incoming lonely single geezer. spike

 

This idea really has legs.  The kind of temporary companionship an elderly
person might want is very different from the one who would attract the
business of a frat boy.  We could have specialty harlots who may even have
nursing training, so that they would just help the single tourist, check
medications, provide a nice erotic massage, share cocktails, read them bible
verses or whatever else they are interested in, sit and have pleasant
conversation, etc.  We could employ those who are too old to be
streetwalkers but would appear young to the solo tourist who rolls in with
his own cathouse.

 

We really are talking about two different kinds of harlots here, a separate
category entirely from the traditional women of the night who look like
junkies to me, and are really far too young to understand the needs of older
people.  Imagine a lonely 70 yr old woman for instance.  She isn't going to
want a 25 yr old man, but she might go for a well-preserved 60 yr old who
was kind and gentle.

 

Oh, the money to be made here, so much money.  And so fulfilling it would
be, a good deed as well as a job, for those who are difficult to employ.

 

spike

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From spike66 at att.net  Sun Aug 12 01:00:46 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2012 18:00:46 -0700
Subject: [ExI] self driving cars again
In-Reply-To: <008d01cd781e$e2832550$a7896ff0$@att.net>
References: <005c01cd7810$c1549c50$43fdd4f0$@att.net>
 <006c01cd7818$38eb5ef0$aac21cd0$@att.net>
 <008d01cd781e$e2832550$a7896ff0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <009b01cd7825$e8bf8100$ba3e8300$@att.net>

 

 

From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of spike
Subject: Re: [ExI] self driving cars again

 

>.Hey wait, better idea!  We could have on-call harlots who are paged by an
incoming lonely single geezer. spike

 

Perhaps we could even have a naming contest.  How about Freddy's Chuckwagon?
Or something that rhymes with that.

 

>.  We could have specialty harlots who may even have nursing training.spike

 

Perhaps I am obsessing too much over this notion, but there are plenty of
variations on a theme, some of which do not even involve harlots.  If you
haven't seen this video, take the three minutes and view it.  If you have
seen it, view it again:

 

http://s442.photobucket.com/albums/qq144/65norton/?action=view
<http://s442.photobucket.com/albums/qq144/65norton/?action=view&current=TCBa
nk-DreamRangers.mp4> &current=TCBank-DreamRangers.mp4

 

-          Could we not imagine a self-driving camper rigged out for five
guys on a grand adventure?  

-          How about a kind-hearted soul or a group of lonely women who
would bring them aid and comfort, even just as a charitable act, not as a
job?  

-          How about a counterpart big camper filled with elderly
adventurous single women on their own late life fling, could not we arrange
for the two campers to call each other, park in adjacent full service
camping spots and allow the occupants to entertain each other for free?  

-          The action could all be so discrete, so 100 miles away, and so
what-happens-in-Freddy's-stays-in-Freddy's-ish, so once-in-a-lifetime.  

-          The lads at the elder care hear that old Wilbur just learned his
is terminal.  Could not they arrange a little going away gift for him?  

 

Finally perhaps my best idea of this whole bizarre flight of fancy:

 

-          Could not we arrange for Alcor to train the entertainers on how
to talk to their clients about the wonders of cryonics?

 

spike

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From jrd1415 at gmail.com  Sun Aug 12 07:15:29 2012
From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis)
Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 00:15:29 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Bucky Balls Could Double Your Lifespan
In-Reply-To: <CAOJFdbL=VXY9wCwU87EB8seDi19pySO_5Hyyu6Vv8mLYs1LMEA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADDVf2KeUUqFkpwrKxdAOf05c1pe4qUpJhNZ+bR_sYdvm=hU7Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <1344538868.80049.YahooMailNeo@web126205.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAPy8RwZZEoD6k2YDf-aMm9zrBq_vg3dRJ70Hfey-cKks4Hs=aA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv0dRKOW9Ybe8puNWwd0NQFKw-ccZYCa30M5zYBUeHwi1g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOJFdbL=VXY9wCwU87EB8seDi19pySO_5Hyyu6Vv8mLYs1LMEA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHUTwkOuUmnC3K3RW1fTmjKOkq+bytpY-athKttfYPnb1PRyCA@mail.gmail.com>

Prices for c60 fullerene: 500mg $180; 5g $777.

http://www.sigmaaldrich.com/catalog/product/aldrich/379646?lang=en&region=CA

Now can someone extract from the original paper a daily dose for the
rodents in mg/kg?

And I'm thinking the original research wasn't looking to optimize the
dosage.  So an optimized doseage may be substantially less than that
given the rodents.

And I'm wondering -- someone have access to the list of citations for
the original research? -- who conducted the first toxicity studies and
with what results?  Just curious.

Best, Jeff Davis

          "Everything's hard till you know how to do it."
                                                 Ray Charles


On Sat, Aug 11, 2012 at 1:43 PM, Mike Dougherty <msd001 at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, Aug 11, 2012 at 1:11 AM, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:
>> thousands of people start smoking. Smoking kills far more people than all
>> illegal drugs put together.
>
> I'm pretty sure if you took all the illegal drugs together it'd kill
> you quicker than smoking.  Well, some of those illegal drugs have to
> be smoked, but whatever.  I knew what you meant and you know I'm just
> being silly.
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From charlie.stross at gmail.com  Sun Aug 12 09:47:41 2012
From: charlie.stross at gmail.com (Charlie Stross)
Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 10:47:41 +0100
Subject: [ExI] self driving cars again
In-Reply-To: <005c01cd7810$c1549c50$43fdd4f0$@att.net>
References: <005c01cd7810$c1549c50$43fdd4f0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <F9024BA2-7956-45DA-BAD6-D082C9813812@gmail.com>


On 11 Aug 2012, at 23:29, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

>  
> Woohoo!  Way to go, Thrun! 
>  
> Work quickly lads, please.  I have six parents who need this technology riiiight nooooow.  Between all six, they own 11 cars, and will gladly give you all of them for three self-drivers, one for each couple.
>  

Assuming they live in reasonable proximity, they don't even need one car/couple. I ran across a news report a year or two ago from a trade body -- something like the British Association of Car-Park Operators -- who'd established that, during peak rush-hour periods, 96% of the UK's private vehicle fleet was parked up at any given time.

If you discount the psychological issues associated with ownership and territorial exclusivity -- attributes of the automobile that have been inculcated by decades of high-budget advertising by the auto industry -- there shouldn't be any problem with being part of a ZipCar-like scheme where, when you whistle, a pool car comes for you. (Charge by the hour for use; charge extra for valet service if a use leaves a mess for the next user.)

Think of it as doing for automobiles what time-sharing operating systems did for computers. One side-effect: if we only need a tenth as many cars, we can make the individual cars much nicer than the average tin box on wheels.


-- Charlie




From mrjones2020 at gmail.com  Sun Aug 12 14:13:09 2012
From: mrjones2020 at gmail.com (J.R. Jones)
Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 10:13:09 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Bucky Balls Could Double Your Lifespan
In-Reply-To: <CADDVf2K2jA4FHZ=a1QZmrN1ntSwQ8TcrbXyV0Www_GzRYFcdxA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADDVf2KeUUqFkpwrKxdAOf05c1pe4qUpJhNZ+bR_sYdvm=hU7Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <1344538868.80049.YahooMailNeo@web126205.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAPy8RwZZEoD6k2YDf-aMm9zrBq_vg3dRJ70Hfey-cKks4Hs=aA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv0dRKOW9Ybe8puNWwd0NQFKw-ccZYCa30M5zYBUeHwi1g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOJFdbL=VXY9wCwU87EB8seDi19pySO_5Hyyu6Vv8mLYs1LMEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHUTwkOuUmnC3K3RW1fTmjKOkq+bytpY-athKttfYPnb1PRyCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADDVf2K2jA4FHZ=a1QZmrN1ntSwQ8TcrbXyV0Www_GzRYFcdxA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CADDVf2K=uNFuNStv0THa5=zVg1YbUN9quD0UoEei8h2TMDBZYg@mail.gmail.com>

Not sure what all this contains...but I found this...
http://extremelongevity.net/wp-content/uploads/C60-Fullerene.pdf

Perhaps this has the dosages/toxicity reports someone was interested in?.
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From spike66 at att.net  Sun Aug 12 14:14:54 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 07:14:54 -0700
Subject: [ExI] self driving cars again
In-Reply-To: <F9024BA2-7956-45DA-BAD6-D082C9813812@gmail.com>
References: <005c01cd7810$c1549c50$43fdd4f0$@att.net>
 <F9024BA2-7956-45DA-BAD6-D082C9813812@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <005501cd7894$d8be3750$8a3aa5f0$@att.net>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Charlie Stross
Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2012 2:48 AM
To: ExI chat list
Subject: Re: [ExI] self driving cars again


On 11 Aug 2012, at 23:29, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

>  
> Woohoo!  Way to go, Thrun! 
>  
>>... Work quickly lads, please.  I have six parents who need this
technology riiiight nooooow.  Between all six, they own 11 cars, and will
gladly give you all of them for three self-drivers, one for each couple.
>  

>...Assuming they live in reasonable proximity, they don't even need one
car/couple. I ran across a news report a year or two ago from a trade body
-- something like the British Association of Car-Park Operators -- who'd
established that, during peak rush-hour periods, 96% of the UK's private
vehicle fleet was parked up at any given time...

Ja.  A variation on that theme is that there is are a number of them parked
all over, spaced appropriately, so that when one calls for a ride, it is
with a few hundred meters always.  So there would still be parked cars
everywhere in the suburbs but the rush hour idle car count could be perhaps
40 percent instead of 96.  One's immediate intuition is to think that would
reduce the number of cars by a factor of about 2, but this is wrong.  It
reduces the car count by a factor of more than 10.  If 96% are parked, then
one in 25 is being operated.  If we reduced the overall car population by a
factor of 10, one in 2.5 is being operated instead of one in 25, which is
40% utilization.

This will work if we have on-call cars everywhere, ready to go on short
notice.  They could be close enough to be on-scene within a couple minutes.
Taxi service in the burbs takes usually at least 20 minutes' notice, and it
is expensive.

>...If you discount the psychological issues associated with ownership and
territorial exclusivity -- ...

There is all that, but everyone can win here.  Those who can afford it can
keep their individual cars.  I know of huge population segments who only
need a car occasionally.  Of those 11 cars I mentioned in the original post,
most (well, all of them actually) are just sitting still and quiet, as they
rot away.

>...Think of it as doing for automobiles what time-sharing operating systems
did for computers. One side-effect: if we only need a tenth as many cars, we
can make the individual cars much nicer than the average tin box on wheels.
-- Charlie

Good thinking Charlie!



From mrjones2020 at gmail.com  Sun Aug 12 14:10:17 2012
From: mrjones2020 at gmail.com (J.R. Jones)
Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 10:10:17 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Bucky Balls Could Double Your Lifespan
In-Reply-To: <CAHUTwkOuUmnC3K3RW1fTmjKOkq+bytpY-athKttfYPnb1PRyCA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADDVf2KeUUqFkpwrKxdAOf05c1pe4qUpJhNZ+bR_sYdvm=hU7Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <1344538868.80049.YahooMailNeo@web126205.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAPy8RwZZEoD6k2YDf-aMm9zrBq_vg3dRJ70Hfey-cKks4Hs=aA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv0dRKOW9Ybe8puNWwd0NQFKw-ccZYCa30M5zYBUeHwi1g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOJFdbL=VXY9wCwU87EB8seDi19pySO_5Hyyu6Vv8mLYs1LMEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHUTwkOuUmnC3K3RW1fTmjKOkq+bytpY-athKttfYPnb1PRyCA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CADDVf2K2jA4FHZ=a1QZmrN1ntSwQ8TcrbXyV0Www_GzRYFcdxA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 3:15 AM, Jeff Davis <jrd1415 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Prices for c60 fullerene: 500mg $180; 5g $777.



At those prices....  space exploration just got a bit more profitable ..
http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/spitzer/news/spitzer20120222.html

...mass equivalent to 15 Earth moons!


I'm curious though.  This stuff is thought to be great in
electronics/superconductivity.  Here it is allegedly extending lifespans by
50%+ etc....  Could aging all come down to our bodies 'shorting out'?  Are
these buckyballs keeping the circuitry open/flowing?
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From nanite1018 at gmail.com  Sun Aug 12 14:28:23 2012
From: nanite1018 at gmail.com (Joshua Job)
Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 10:28:23 -0400
Subject: [ExI] self driving cars again
In-Reply-To: <F9024BA2-7956-45DA-BAD6-D082C9813812@gmail.com>
References: <005c01cd7810$c1549c50$43fdd4f0$@att.net>
 <F9024BA2-7956-45DA-BAD6-D082C9813812@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEtn_z0QrMyETnbaiqmLerg5yQE1TQ+4fO7dgie9qNuTP3R6xw@mail.gmail.com>

It seems to me that the initial killer-app will be taxi companies. In big
cities like New York where relatively few people own cars and taxis are
prevalent, the psychological problem of "but it's not MY car" simply isn't
an issue.

Cab companies will eliminate cab drivers, who apparently get about 50% of
the fare money, and pony up the increased costs for the initial automated
vehicles. Reduced rates for car insurance will probably help this whole
process along. Heck, in a reasonably short time after their introduction,
automated cars may pay for themselves through that alone.

Similarly for truck drivers, bus drivers, chauffeurs, etc. Basically anyone
whose job it is to drive someone else around is going to quickly disappear.
Once people get used to that, I think we'll see large scale adoption.
Suburbanites who don't commute downtown might not be willing to go in for
carshare services for a while though--there's little to no incentive for
them, and the psychological blocks Charlie mentioned are pretty big.
On Aug 12, 2012 5:16 AM, "Charlie Stross" <charlie.stross at gmail.com> wrote:

>
> On 11 Aug 2012, at 23:29, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>
> >
> > Woohoo!  Way to go, Thrun!
> >
> > Work quickly lads, please.  I have six parents who need this technology
> riiiight nooooow.  Between all six, they own 11 cars, and will gladly give
> you all of them for three self-drivers, one for each couple.
> >
>
> Assuming they live in reasonable proximity, they don't even need one
> car/couple. I ran across a news report a year or two ago from a trade body
> -- something like the British Association of Car-Park Operators -- who'd
> established that, during peak rush-hour periods, 96% of the UK's private
> vehicle fleet was parked up at any given time.
>
> If you discount the psychological issues associated with ownership and
> territorial exclusivity -- attributes of the automobile that have been
> inculcated by decades of high-budget advertising by the auto industry --
> there shouldn't be any problem with being part of a ZipCar-like scheme
> where, when you whistle, a pool car comes for you. (Charge by the hour for
> use; charge extra for valet service if a use leaves a mess for the next
> user.)
>
> Think of it as doing for automobiles what time-sharing operating systems
> did for computers. One side-effect: if we only need a tenth as many cars,
> we can make the individual cars much nicer than the average tin box on
> wheels.
>
>
> -- Charlie
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From deimtee at optusnet.com.au  Sun Aug 12 15:49:05 2012
From: deimtee at optusnet.com.au (david)
Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 01:49:05 +1000
Subject: [ExI] self driving cars again
In-Reply-To: <005501cd7894$d8be3750$8a3aa5f0$@att.net>
References: <005c01cd7810$c1549c50$43fdd4f0$@att.net>
 <F9024BA2-7956-45DA-BAD6-D082C9813812@gmail.com>
 <005501cd7894$d8be3750$8a3aa5f0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <20120813014905.47b9f73c@jarrah>

On Sun, 12 Aug 2012 07:14:54 -0700
"spike" <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

<snip> 

> >...Think of it as doing for automobiles what time-sharing operating
> >systems
> did for computers. One side-effect: if we only need a tenth as many
> cars, we can make the individual cars much nicer than the average tin
> box on wheels. -- Charlie
> 
> Good thinking Charlie!
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


With a smart enough despatching system covering the area, you could use
a fleet of electric cars. You could even make cross country trips,
meeting and transferring to a new car each time the battery gets low.
They monitor their charge (as does the system), and if there isn't
enough left to make the trip, a charged car meets you on the
way. Lots of potential for a smart system.

-David.


From charlie.stross at gmail.com  Sun Aug 12 15:58:23 2012
From: charlie.stross at gmail.com (Charlie Stross)
Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 16:58:23 +0100
Subject: [ExI] self driving cars again
In-Reply-To: <20120813014905.47b9f73c@jarrah>
References: <005c01cd7810$c1549c50$43fdd4f0$@att.net>
 <F9024BA2-7956-45DA-BAD6-D082C9813812@gmail.com>
 <005501cd7894$d8be3750$8a3aa5f0$@att.net> <20120813014905.47b9f73c@jarrah>
Message-ID: <CCB0A945-A6D8-4677-A1D2-6C34679748AF@gmail.com>


On 12 Aug 2012, at 16:49, david <deimtee at optusnet.com.au> wrote:
> 
> 
> With a smart enough despatching system covering the area, you could use
> a fleet of electric cars. You could even make cross country trips,
> meeting and transferring to a new car each time the battery gets low.
> They monitor their charge (as does the system), and if there isn't
> enough left to make the trip, a charged car meets you on the
> way. Lots of potential for a smart system.

Actually, if we're talking self-driving and electric, then for long-haul trips the best solution seems to me to be able to hire a self-driving electric car with a tow bar and trailer hitch ... and to rent a trailer with a bunch of extra batteries or a compact fuel-burning generator pack. Let the car software handle reversing and steering with a trailer (software to do that is a logical requirement for self-driving cargo trucks), and don't bother carrying with the parasitic weight of a hybrid power train unless you're actually going further than the built-in batteries will allow.


-- Charlie


From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Sun Aug 12 16:16:16 2012
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 09:16:16 -0700
Subject: [ExI] More ranting on power sats
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB7x-qqpCgbw6q3Rz_i9CbzZ_Ufkfmn6wtXF4fprLg_CFA@mail.gmail.com>

Shame to put a good rant in only one place.  :-)  I will try to keep
these down to once a week.  This is in response to an article in the
Washington Post by Hansen.


This might have changed recently, but (as far as I know) none of these
people who make noise about anthropological global warming actually
want to do anything about it.

If we were suddenly able to switch to a non-carbon energy source,
people like Hansen would be out of a role.  Ideally, a switch should
have a price tag lower than the current cost of energy.

Do people like Hansen ask engineers to design an energy supply at such
a low cost that people will just quit using fossil fuels?  Are they
even interested in new low cost energy?

These are not hypothetical questions.  Solar energy is as renewable as
you can get, but the way we convert it is expensive because sunlight
is dilute and thus takes huge areas, often as not, located far from
demand.  In addition, there is the storage problem.

If you can go into space, where there is no wind or gravity,
structures can be light and last for decades to centuries.  How light?
 Ground based takes around 500 kg per kW, space about 5 kg/kW, so one
percent.  It is well understood how to get the power back via
microwaves and because the sun shines almost full time on that orbit,
there is no need for storage.

The reason this has not already been done is the high cost of getting
500,000 tons per year or more to geosynchronous orbit.  The high cost
is due to infrequent flights and small payload fraction.  Flying a few
times an hour will get the cost down to around $500/kg but that's too
much for power satellites.

We know that if we could heat hydrogen with external energy the
payload fraction would go up by a factor of about ten and the cost
down by the same factor.  Big lasers related to the tiny ones in CD
players can do that.

Propulsion lasers are very expensive, but if you run them full time,
the cost to lift parts to GEO goes down to under $100/kg.  At that
price, power satellites cost $1600/kW and for that much capital
investment, the power can be made at 2 cents per kWh.

That's less than half the cost of the next least expensive source of
power and down by a full factor of ten from the projected cost of
ground solar.  It's so low, synthetic carbon neutral fuels can be made
for around a dollar a gallon.

The energy payback is a couple of months, and the growth potential is
high enough to displace all fossil fuels in a couple of decade from
the start.

We have to so something about energy or die in famines and resource
wars.  The start up cost is probably over $100 B, but that's a deal
considering what it solves.

Know anyone who wants to actually solve the energy problem as opposed
to getting attention by incessantly going on about global warming?

This low cost transport proposal has not been peer reviewed.  If any
of you would like to do that, let me know.

The previous iteration can be found here:  http://www.theoildrum.com/node/7898


From deimtee at optusnet.com.au  Sun Aug 12 17:29:16 2012
From: deimtee at optusnet.com.au (david)
Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 03:29:16 +1000
Subject: [ExI] self driving cars again
In-Reply-To: <CCB0A945-A6D8-4677-A1D2-6C34679748AF@gmail.com>
References: <005c01cd7810$c1549c50$43fdd4f0$@att.net>
 <F9024BA2-7956-45DA-BAD6-D082C9813812@gmail.com>
 <005501cd7894$d8be3750$8a3aa5f0$@att.net>
 <20120813014905.47b9f73c@jarrah>
 <CCB0A945-A6D8-4677-A1D2-6C34679748AF@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120813032916.7a7c1ac9@jarrah>

On Sun, 12 Aug 2012 16:58:23 +0100
Charlie Stross <charlie.stross at gmail.com> wrote:

> 
> On 12 Aug 2012, at 16:49, david <deimtee at optusnet.com.au> wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > With a smart enough despatching system covering the area, you could
> > use a fleet of electric cars. You could even make cross country
> > trips, meeting and transferring to a new car each time the battery
> > gets low. They monitor their charge (as does the system), and if
> > there isn't enough left to make the trip, a charged car meets you
> > on the way. Lots of potential for a smart system.
> 
> Actually, if we're talking self-driving and electric, then for
> long-haul trips the best solution seems to me to be able to hire a
> self-driving electric car with a tow bar and trailer hitch ... and to
> rent a trailer with a bunch of extra batteries or a compact
> fuel-burning generator pack. Let the car software handle reversing
> and steering with a trailer (software to do that is a logical
> requirement for self-driving cargo trucks), and don't bother carrying
> with the parasitic weight of a hybrid power train unless you're
> actually going further than the built-in batteries will allow.
> 
> 
> -- Charlie
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


I'm curious as to why that isn't currently done. A "standard" electric
car with one to two hundred km range for the daily commute, add a
trailer with a generator in it for the long hauls. A 10Kw generator
would really extend your range. At 20Kw range would probably only be
limited by re-fueling.
It would be great for camping too. Plenty of space in the trailer, and
you can use the generator at the campsite.

-David.


From eric at m056832107.syzygy.com  Sun Aug 12 17:06:59 2012
From: eric at m056832107.syzygy.com (Eric Messick)
Date: 12 Aug 2012 17:06:59 -0000
Subject: [ExI] self driving cars again
In-Reply-To: <20120813014905.47b9f73c@jarrah>
References: <005c01cd7810$c1549c50$43fdd4f0$@att.net>
 <F9024BA2-7956-45DA-BAD6-D082C9813812@gmail.com>
 <005501cd7894$d8be3750$8a3aa5f0$@att.net> <20120813014905.47b9f73c@jarrah>
Message-ID: <20120812170659.16218.qmail@syzygy.com>

david <deimtee at optusnet.com.au> writes:

>With a smart enough despatching system covering the area, you could use
>a fleet of electric cars. You could even make cross country trips,
>meeting and transferring to a new car each time the battery gets low.

Or, take a tip from railroads.  You own a passenger pod, which you can
customize with whatever amenities you want.  It has no power train,
but instead relies on a fleet of self driving engines.

You might get a discount if you're willing to link up with other
passenger pods for a longer trip.  Different size engines would be
available for different load requirements and trip lengths.

You don't need to worry about sticky seats, or engine maintenance.

-eric


From charlie.stross at gmail.com  Sun Aug 12 17:06:05 2012
From: charlie.stross at gmail.com (Charlie Stross)
Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 18:06:05 +0100
Subject: [ExI] More ranting on power sats
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB7x-qqpCgbw6q3Rz_i9CbzZ_Ufkfmn6wtXF4fprLg_CFA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB7x-qqpCgbw6q3Rz_i9CbzZ_Ufkfmn6wtXF4fprLg_CFA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2C7A7C5C-8702-41A3-9EFE-577E1D1BB0D7@gmail.com>


On 12 Aug 2012, at 17:16, Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> wrote:

> Shame to put a good rant in only one place.  :-)  I will try to keep
> these down to once a week.  This is in response to an article in the
> Washington Post by Hansen.
> 
> 
> This might have changed recently, but (as far as I know) none of these
> people who make noise about anthropological global warming actually
> want to do anything about it.

Sorry, but you had me at "anthropological global warning": I fail to see how the study of human behaviour can contribute to climate change. Maybe if we study it less, the instability will go away, through some kind of Heisenbergian effect?

(Now, if you meant to say "anthropogenic", that's another kettle of fish ...)


-- Charlie


From johnkclark at gmail.com  Sun Aug 12 17:55:00 2012
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 13:55:00 -0400
Subject: [ExI] More ranting on power sats
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB7x-qqpCgbw6q3Rz_i9CbzZ_Ufkfmn6wtXF4fprLg_CFA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB7x-qqpCgbw6q3Rz_i9CbzZ_Ufkfmn6wtXF4fprLg_CFA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv3DS_sKnbzz9gLxo_7VPVFGBNfO4jQwMfU0Q8dau3VPcw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 12:16 PM, Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com>wrote:

> This might have changed recently, but (as far as I know) none of these
> people who make noise about anthropological global warming actually want to
> do anything about it.
>

That's very true, all they want to do is talk and apparently some things,
like nuclear power, are so sinful they shouldn't even be talked about. But
that's not really surprising, if the global warming problem were ever
solved a lot of environmentalists would be out of a job.

> because sunlight is dilute and thus takes huge areas, often as not,
> located far from demand.
>

But the microwave power density from satellites would be even more dilute
than sunlight and thus you'd need even more land area to collect the
energy. I think the microwave-electricity conversion factor would be better
than with solar, but not enough to make up for its very dilute nature. And
I concede of course that unlike solar power satellites would work at night,
but probably not in the rain, and they wouldn't work for up to 72 minutes a
day when the earth eclipses anything in geosynchronous orbit.

  John K Clark
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From spike66 at att.net  Sun Aug 12 19:10:55 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 12:10:55 -0700
Subject: [ExI] self driving cars again
In-Reply-To: <20120812170659.16218.qmail@syzygy.com>
References: <005c01cd7810$c1549c50$43fdd4f0$@att.net>
 <F9024BA2-7956-45DA-BAD6-D082C9813812@gmail.com>
 <005501cd7894$d8be3750$8a3aa5f0$@att.net> <20120813014905.47b9f73c@jarrah>
 <20120812170659.16218.qmail@syzygy.com>
Message-ID: <003e01cd78be$330530f0$990f92d0$@att.net>


>... On Behalf Of Eric Messick
Subject: Re: [ExI] self driving cars again

david <deimtee at optusnet.com.au> writes:

>>...With a smart enough despatching system covering the area, you could use

>a fleet of electric cars. You could even make cross country trips, 
>meeting and transferring to a new car each time the battery gets low.

>...Or, take a tip from railroads.  You own a passenger pod, which you can
customize with whatever amenities you want.  It has no power train, but
instead relies on a fleet of self driving engines...You don't need to worry
about sticky seats, or engine maintenance.  -eric
_______________________________________________

Ja, and there are plenty of minor variations on that theme.  We could
imagine a passenger pod set up any way you like with its own four wheels and
even possibly a small electric motor on one front wheel and a small battery,
just enough for very short distance and low speed, and for maneuvering, no
steering wheel but with a slider bar actuator on one front wheel (the other
front wheel being a free castor like on a shopping cart.)  Top speed about
average walking pace, range about a km, all the drive equipment fits inside
a box 30 cm on a side and mounted over the front left wheel.

Then when you need to go anywhere, you call on a tractor about the size of
somewhere around a riding lawnmower, which hitches to your passenger
pod/bedroom and hauls you wherever you need to go, dropping you off there
and going off to haul the next amorous couple.  

I can imagine the passenger pods being about the size of our current station
wagons, but the tractors being much smaller.

Good thinking Eric!

spike



From spike66 at att.net  Sun Aug 12 19:16:37 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 12:16:37 -0700
Subject: [ExI] self driving cars again
In-Reply-To: <CCB0A945-A6D8-4677-A1D2-6C34679748AF@gmail.com>
References: <005c01cd7810$c1549c50$43fdd4f0$@att.net>
 <F9024BA2-7956-45DA-BAD6-D082C9813812@gmail.com>
 <005501cd7894$d8be3750$8a3aa5f0$@att.net> <20120813014905.47b9f73c@jarrah>
 <CCB0A945-A6D8-4677-A1D2-6C34679748AF@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <003f01cd78be$ff94e5c0$febeb140$@att.net>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Charlie Stross
>...
Subject: Re: [ExI] self driving cars again
...

>...Actually, if we're talking self-driving and electric, then for long-haul
trips the best solution seems to me to be able to hire a self-driving
electric car with a tow bar and trailer hitch ... and to rent a trailer with
a bunch of extra batteries or a compact fuel-burning generator pack. Let the
car software handle reversing and steering with a trailer (software to do
that is a logical requirement for self-driving cargo trucks), and don't
bother carrying with the parasitic weight of a hybrid power train unless
you're actually going further than the built-in batteries will allow.  --
Charlie
_______________________________________________

Ja and another thought: if we have passenger pods with separate self-driven
tractors, we put the cushy suspension similar to what we use on our cars on
the passenger pod only.  The tractor can have harder tires and stiffer
suspension since there is no one aboard, and the drive equipment can handle
the rough ride.  Then you can have a small Diesel connected to a generator
to provide a series hybrid ride.  A few batteries to give a little extra
acceleration off the line, and we are good to go, even if not particularly
fast.

A Diesel running a constant RPM and constant load is very efficient.

spike



From jrd1415 at gmail.com  Sun Aug 12 19:33:42 2012
From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis)
Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 12:33:42 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Bucky Balls Could Double Your Lifespan
In-Reply-To: <CADDVf2K=uNFuNStv0THa5=zVg1YbUN9quD0UoEei8h2TMDBZYg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADDVf2KeUUqFkpwrKxdAOf05c1pe4qUpJhNZ+bR_sYdvm=hU7Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <1344538868.80049.YahooMailNeo@web126205.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAPy8RwZZEoD6k2YDf-aMm9zrBq_vg3dRJ70Hfey-cKks4Hs=aA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv0dRKOW9Ybe8puNWwd0NQFKw-ccZYCa30M5zYBUeHwi1g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOJFdbL=VXY9wCwU87EB8seDi19pySO_5Hyyu6Vv8mLYs1LMEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHUTwkOuUmnC3K3RW1fTmjKOkq+bytpY-athKttfYPnb1PRyCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADDVf2K2jA4FHZ=a1QZmrN1ntSwQ8TcrbXyV0Www_GzRYFcdxA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADDVf2K=uNFuNStv0THa5=zVg1YbUN9quD0UoEei8h2TMDBZYg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHUTwkPWoUWYpzOdvNowgkS4uCYzc23sALt-8f_2ys2eLDu3Eg@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks for the link, JR.

In the abstract we find the dosage for the rats to be 1.7 mg/kg of
body weight.  For an adult human male at 75kg (165 lbs) or female at
50 kg (110 lbs), this translates into dosages of 289 mg, and 187 mg
respectively, for a cost of $25.64/ day and $17.09/day.  (@ $777/5g)

Two factors might reduce this cost per dose:  a lower price for a
larger quantity, ie a bulk order; or a lower dose -- somewhere between
0.0 mg/kg and 1.7 mg/kg, if shown to be equally effective.

Best, Jeff Davis

             "Everything's hard till you know how to do it."
                                            Ray Charles


On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 7:13 AM, J.R. Jones <mrjones2020 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Not sure what all this contains...but I found this...
> http://extremelongevity.net/wp-content/uploads/C60-Fullerene.pdf


From spike66 at att.net  Sun Aug 12 19:21:37 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 12:21:37 -0700
Subject: [ExI] More ranting on power sats
In-Reply-To: <2C7A7C5C-8702-41A3-9EFE-577E1D1BB0D7@gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB7x-qqpCgbw6q3Rz_i9CbzZ_Ufkfmn6wtXF4fprLg_CFA@mail.gmail.com>
 <2C7A7C5C-8702-41A3-9EFE-577E1D1BB0D7@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <004001cd78bf$b269feb0$173dfc10$@att.net>



>... On Behalf Of Charlie Stross
...
>>... This might have changed recently, but (as far as I know) none of these

> people who make noise about anthropological global warming actually 
> want to do anything about it.

>...Sorry, but you had me at "anthropological global warning": I fail to see
how the study of human behaviour can contribute to climate change. Maybe if
we study it less, the instability will go away, through some kind of
Heisenbergian effect?  (Now, if you meant to say "anthropogenic", that's
another kettle of fish ...) -- Charlie
_______________________________________________

No, he said it right.  Anthropologists drive to work just like everyone
else, and they eat and breathe.  They contribute to global warming as much
as climatologists, geologists, proctologists, everyone else.

Charlie it is good indeed to see you posting here again man.

spike



From spike66 at att.net  Sun Aug 12 19:27:59 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 12:27:59 -0700
Subject: [ExI] More ranting on power sats
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv3DS_sKnbzz9gLxo_7VPVFGBNfO4jQwMfU0Q8dau3VPcw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB7x-qqpCgbw6q3Rz_i9CbzZ_Ufkfmn6wtXF4fprLg_CFA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv3DS_sKnbzz9gLxo_7VPVFGBNfO4jQwMfU0Q8dau3VPcw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <005201cd78c0$95df8480$c19e8d80$@att.net>

 

 

From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of John Clark



>.solar power satellites.wouldn't work for up to 72 minutes a day when the
earth eclipses anything in geosynchronous orbit.   John K Clark 

 

Indeed sir?  Did you forget that the plane of the ecliptic is tilted 23
degrees from the orbit plane of the earth's orbit about the sun?  Of course
for a few days in March and a few days in September, your comment is partly
right, if you don't consider the penumbra all the way out there.

 

spike






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From dan_ust at yahoo.com  Mon Aug 13 01:15:44 2012
From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan)
Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 18:15:44 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Plate tectonics on Mars?
Message-ID: <1344820544.12675.YahooMailNeo@web126202.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

http://www.marsdaily.com/reports/UCLA_scientist_discovers_plate_tectonics_on_Mars_999.html
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From anders at aleph.se  Mon Aug 13 10:34:52 2012
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 12:34:52 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Electromagnetic launcher efficiency
Message-ID: <5028D84C.50506@aleph.se>

Just a quick question I hope Spike, Keith or some of you others already 
know the answer to:

What is the theoretical limit to electromagnetic launcher efficiency?

As far as I can tell from the literature, the quenchgun people seem to 
claim that a superconducting coilgun storing all its energy in the coils 
is optimal:

    "The quenchgun is analogous to the Carnot engine in thermodynamics
    the ideal launcher capable of achieving the maximum theoretically
    possible efficiency. "

http://adsabs.harvard.edu/full/1992NASSP.509B.117S
However, presumably the magnetic fields will not all couple to the 
projectile. And I would really need to get a number of that efficiency - 
I cannot find the old papers cited, since they are all 80s conference 
proceedings.
http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19900012490_1990012490.pdf 

claims "nearly all energy is transmitted", but I cannot figure out how 
nearly the nearly is.

Normal railguns obviously have energy losses from ohmic resistance. The 
calculations in
http://ilin.asee.org/Conference2008/SESSIONS/Lumped%20Parameter%20Modeling%20of%20the%20Ideal%20Railgun.pdf
seem to imply that if everything was superconducting the efficiency 
would be 1, which I find doubtful.

Real electromagnetic launchers have far bigger energy losses of course, 
but I am interested in the theoretical limit. Assume you can get as much 
superconductors, perfect timing and energy as you like.

-- 
Anders Sandberg,
Future of Humanity Institute
Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University

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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Mon Aug 13 14:50:48 2012
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 10:50:48 -0400
Subject: [ExI] More ranting on power sats
In-Reply-To: <005201cd78c0$95df8480$c19e8d80$@att.net>
References: <CAPiwVB7x-qqpCgbw6q3Rz_i9CbzZ_Ufkfmn6wtXF4fprLg_CFA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv3DS_sKnbzz9gLxo_7VPVFGBNfO4jQwMfU0Q8dau3VPcw@mail.gmail.com>
 <005201cd78c0$95df8480$c19e8d80$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv3Qj=gi=od07Byv8h3QoX1EkmWbzQmF3H-9cvR37WKoDQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 3:27 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

*>>?*solar power satellites?wouldn't work for up to 72 minutes a day when
>> the earth eclipses anything in geosynchronous orbit?   John K Clark
>>
> ** **
>
> Indeed sir?  Did you forget that the plane of the ecliptic is tilted 23
> degrees from the orbit plane of the earth?s orbit about the sun?  Of course
> for a few days in March and a few days in September, your comment is partly
> right, if you don?t consider the penumbra all the way out there.
>

Between February 28 and April 11 and between September 2 and October 14 the
sun will be eclipsed by the earth every day for anything in geosynchronous
orbit, the time in shadow varies reaching a maximum of 72 minutes at the 2
equinoxes. It's particularly unfortunate that it occurs at around noon
local time the busiest part of the day, assuming the gigantic receiving
antenna was aimed at the satellite that was highest in the sky so it went
through the least amount of atmosphere. This blackout is not such a big
deal for communication satellites because they can run on chemical
batteries for a hour or so, but the problem is not as easy to solve for
power satellites, and even so battery aging is the main thing that limits
the lifetime of communication satellites.

  John K Clark
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From spike66 at att.net  Mon Aug 13 16:01:55 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 09:01:55 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Electromagnetic launcher efficiency
In-Reply-To: <5028D84C.50506@aleph.se>
References: <5028D84C.50506@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <005101cd796c$f68fa3d0$e3aeeb70$@att.net>

 

 

>.From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Anders Sandberg
Subject: [ExI] Electromagnetic launcher efficiency

 

>.Just a quick question I hope Spike, Keith or some of you others already
know the answer to:

>.What is the theoretical limit to electromagnetic launcher efficiency?

>.Real electromagnetic launchers have far bigger energy losses of course,
but I am interested in the theoretical limit. Assume you can get as much
superconductors, perfect timing and energy as you like. -- Anders Sandberg,

 
 
Anders, I don't know where I last saw the equations on that, but it is an
interesting question.  
 
A few years ago I went with the fam to Disneyland California Experience,
where they have a maglev launched roller coaster.  I stood and watched it
for half an hour.  After each launch, they have sprayers that cool the
track.  I tried to estimate the amount of energy being dissipated by the
amount of steam that comes off, but it was hopeless.  What I needed was some
kind of IR thermometer, which would allow me to find the temperature of the
track after the launch, then estimate the mass of the steel, then use the
specific heat of iron.  I could estimate the mass of the roller coaster and
the speed it was going at the end of the launch event, estimate half the
waste energy goes into the track and half goes into the rollercoaster and
the air, and get it that way.
 
Or we could just look up actual data, that might work too.
 
spike
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From deimtee at optusnet.com.au  Mon Aug 13 16:04:13 2012
From: deimtee at optusnet.com.au (david)
Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 02:04:13 +1000
Subject: [ExI] More ranting on power sats
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv3Qj=gi=od07Byv8h3QoX1EkmWbzQmF3H-9cvR37WKoDQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB7x-qqpCgbw6q3Rz_i9CbzZ_Ufkfmn6wtXF4fprLg_CFA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv3DS_sKnbzz9gLxo_7VPVFGBNfO4jQwMfU0Q8dau3VPcw@mail.gmail.com>
 <005201cd78c0$95df8480$c19e8d80$@att.net>
 <CAJPayv3Qj=gi=od07Byv8h3QoX1EkmWbzQmF3H-9cvR37WKoDQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120814020413.40c5c76b@jarrah>

On Mon, 13 Aug 2012 10:50:48 -0400
John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 3:27 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> 
> *>>?*solar power satellites?wouldn't work for up to 72 minutes a day
> when
> >> the earth eclipses anything in geosynchronous orbit?   John K Clark
> >>
> > ** **
> >
> > Indeed sir?  Did you forget that the plane of the ecliptic is
> > tilted 23 degrees from the orbit plane of the earth?s orbit about
> > the sun?  Of course for a few days in March and a few days in
> > September, your comment is partly right, if you don?t consider the
> > penumbra all the way out there.
> >
> 
> Between February 28 and April 11 and between September 2 and October
> 14 the sun will be eclipsed by the earth every day for anything in
> geosynchronous orbit, the time in shadow varies reaching a maximum of
> 72 minutes at the 2 equinoxes. It's particularly unfortunate that it
> occurs at around noon local time the busiest part of the day,
> assuming the gigantic receiving antenna was aimed at the satellite
> that was highest in the sky so it went through the least amount of
> atmosphere. This blackout is not such a big deal for communication
> satellites because they can run on chemical batteries for a hour or
> so, but the problem is not as easy to solve for power satellites, and
> even so battery aging is the main thing that limits the lifetime of
> communication satellites.
> 
>   John K Clark


I think you have misread the time. Geostationary orbits are eclipsed at
approximately midnight on the point below them.

-David.




From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Mon Aug 13 14:43:49 2012
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 07:43:49 -0700
Subject: [ExI] More ranting on power sats
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB7Pfkg28-SUCawG6xymek-yJ2tZ4yJUqGp69HdtrFJLVw@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Aug 13, 2012 at 5:00 AM, Charlie Stross
<charlie.stross at gmail.com> wrote:

snip
>
> (Now, if you meant to say "anthropogenic", that's another kettle of fish ...)

Talk about one the spell checker is *not* going to find.  :-)

> From: John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com>

> But the microwave power density from satellites would be even more dilute
> than sunlight and thus you'd need even more land area to collect the
> energy.

The higher efficiency of converting microwaves to electric power lets
the power per unit are be about the same as PV, about 99% of the
time..

>I think the microwave-electricity conversion factor would be better
> than with solar, but not enough to make up for its very dilute nature. And
> I concede of course that unlike solar power satellites would work at night,
> but probably not in the rain, and they wouldn't work for up to 72 minutes a
> day when the earth eclipses anything in geosynchronous orbit.

> From: "spike" <spike66 at att.net>

> Indeed sir?  Did you forget that the plane of the ecliptic is tilted 23
> degrees from the orbit plane of the earth's orbit about the sun?  Of course
> for a few days in March and a few days in September, your comment is partly
> right, if you don't consider the penumbra all the way out there.

It's a time of low demand and if you have a grid, then we can "cross
the beams" to keep the grid fed from power sats out of the shadow.

Keith


From spike66 at att.net  Mon Aug 13 16:30:17 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 09:30:17 -0700
Subject: [ExI] symmetrical 11-Venn discovered
Message-ID: <006501cd7970$ed96bf30$c8c43d90$@att.net>

Kewall!

 

I have long wondered about this.  If you draw a Venn diagram with the usual
three sets which creates eight distinct regions, it is pretty
straightforward, but it gets wacky complicated really fast.  The number of
regions is 2^n, where n is the number of sets.  So what does a 4-Venn look
like?  Can you draw one?  Check this, they claim to have discovered a way to
make a symmetrical 11-Venn.  It looks right to me:

 

http://cartesianproduct.wordpress.com/2012/08/12/venn-diagrams-for-11-sets/

 

{8^D  

 

Oh this is sooo cool, life.is.goooood.

 

spike

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From ginakathleenmiller at gmail.com  Mon Aug 13 15:58:43 2012
From: ginakathleenmiller at gmail.com (Gina Miller)
Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 09:58:43 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Watch the new episode of NanotubeTV
Message-ID: <CAMd8APy-iigqxZB55gyH6wiBmZS7WRcb5KmZBE9x07+5+2Pstw@mail.gmail.com>

I have completed editing the next episode of my series NanotubeTV. Episode
2 of NanotubeTV is now live! Learn of the impact Atoms, Democritus, and
J.D. Bernal had on the emerging science of nanotechnology:
https://vimeo.com/47424982

To the future...
Gina "Nanogirl" Miller
www.nanoindustries.com
www.nanogirl.com
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Mon Aug 13 17:00:24 2012
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 13:00:24 -0400
Subject: [ExI] More ranting on power sats
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB7Pfkg28-SUCawG6xymek-yJ2tZ4yJUqGp69HdtrFJLVw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB7Pfkg28-SUCawG6xymek-yJ2tZ4yJUqGp69HdtrFJLVw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv2NdCN8braABP3vRPQMZrYZUTdRSeY-U16Gw_P7mJca3w@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Aug 13, 2012 at 10:43 AM, Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com>wrote:

> > (Now, if you meant to say "anthropogenic", that's another kettle of
> fish ...)
>
> > Talk about one the spell checker is *not* going to find.  :-)
>

With the voice synthesizer on my Mac "kettle of fish" and "kettle of ghoti"
sound exactly the same. George Bernard Shaw hated English spelling and said
that if you used the same rules of pronunciation and spelling that are used
in the words tough, women, and nation then the word "Fish" should be
spelled as "Ghoti". I guess the good people at Apple remembered Shaw.

> > But the microwave power density from satellites would be even more
>> dilute than sunlight and thus you'd need even more land area to collect the
>> energy.
>>
>
> > The higher efficiency of converting microwaves to electric power lets
> the power per unit are be about the same as PV,


If it can't do better than vanilla photovoltaics one can't help but ask if
putting an object larger than a supertanker into geosynchronous orbit is
really worth the gargantuan cost.

> about 99% of the time.
>

I assume that means when its not raining.

> It's a time of low demand


I can see that 3am would be a time of low demand, but this would be around
noon.

> and if you have a grid, then we can "cross the beams" to keep the grid
> fed from power sats out of the shadow.
>

This problem like all problems is solvable, but it's going to take even
more money and we're already talking about astronomical sums. If we can't
get fusion to work I say fission Thorium reactors are a better long term
solution.

  John K Clark
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From spike66 at att.net  Mon Aug 13 16:50:25 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 09:50:25 -0700
Subject: [ExI] More ranting on power sats
In-Reply-To: <20120814020413.40c5c76b@jarrah>
References: <CAPiwVB7x-qqpCgbw6q3Rz_i9CbzZ_Ufkfmn6wtXF4fprLg_CFA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv3DS_sKnbzz9gLxo_7VPVFGBNfO4jQwMfU0Q8dau3VPcw@mail.gmail.com>
 <005201cd78c0$95df8480$c19e8d80$@att.net>
 <CAJPayv3Qj=gi=od07Byv8h3QoX1EkmWbzQmF3H-9cvR37WKoDQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120814020413.40c5c76b@jarrah>
Message-ID: <007f01cd7973$bcc995a0$365cc0e0$@att.net>


>... On Behalf Of david
Subject: Re: [ExI] More ranting on power sats

> On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 3:27 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> 
> *>>?*solar power satellites?wouldn't work for up to 72 minutes a day when
> >> the earth eclipses anything in geosynchronous orbit?   John K Clark
> >>
> > ** **
> >
>> > ...Indeed sir? ...spike
> 
>>... Between February 28 and April 11 and between September 2 and October
> 14 the sun will be eclipsed by the earth every day for anything in 
> geosynchronous orbit, the time in shadow varies reaching a maximum of
> 72 minutes at the 2 equinoxes. It's particularly unfortunate that it 
> occurs at around noon local time the busiest part of the day...   John K Clark


>...I think you have misread the time. Geostationary orbits are eclipsed at approximately midnight on the point below them.

-David.
_______________________________________________

Good catch David, I missed that too.  I was too busy trying to mentally estimate the penumbra time of a geosat, for which I get only a few minutes of penumbral eclipse.  So John's comment about 70 minutes of total eclipse on the equinoxes isn't far off the mark, 5 or 6 minutes of penumbral eclipse on either side of about an hour of totality twice a year is about right.  This isn't a show stopper, considering the temporary outage always occurs at midnight.

My contribution to all this is that a geo powersat wouldn't necessarily be at zero latitude.  I can think of some good reasons to not park it there.  Set it at 1 degree inclination.  Then of course it appears to move a degree above and below the plane of the ecliptic, and it would require some station keeping and some pointing authority, but these things are light, so tilting it a degree over 12 hours using light pressure from the sun wouldn't be that hard.  Besides that, you need to actively aim the thing anyway.

spike




From johnkclark at gmail.com  Mon Aug 13 17:06:44 2012
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 13:06:44 -0400
Subject: [ExI] More ranting on power sats
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv2NdCN8braABP3vRPQMZrYZUTdRSeY-U16Gw_P7mJca3w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB7Pfkg28-SUCawG6xymek-yJ2tZ4yJUqGp69HdtrFJLVw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv2NdCN8braABP3vRPQMZrYZUTdRSeY-U16Gw_P7mJca3w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv3=VyWPULyUu+Ysv_aYqbfQpixUNpoL43SQuj3SeYkdSw@mail.gmail.com>

Some moron named John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

> I can see that 3am would be a time of low demand, but this would be
> around noon.
>

Hey John you moron what are you smoking? Noon? It would be around 3am!

  John K Clark
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From atymes at gmail.com  Mon Aug 13 17:06:19 2012
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 10:06:19 -0700
Subject: [ExI] More ranting on power sats
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv2NdCN8braABP3vRPQMZrYZUTdRSeY-U16Gw_P7mJca3w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB7Pfkg28-SUCawG6xymek-yJ2tZ4yJUqGp69HdtrFJLVw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv2NdCN8braABP3vRPQMZrYZUTdRSeY-U16Gw_P7mJca3w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNStfEsrmFCcw+YUidoWRaRMBd=VYk9XZbUnTpg-8dq7aQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Aug 13, 2012 at 10:00 AM, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:
> With the voice synthesizer on my Mac "kettle of fish" and "kettle of ghoti"
> sound exactly the same. George Bernard Shaw hated English spelling and said
> that if you used the same rules of pronunciation and spelling that are used
> in the words tough, women, and nation then the word "Fish" should be spelled
> as "Ghoti". I guess the good people at Apple remembered Shaw.

In so far as "ghoti" exists, that is in fact the proper pronunciation.
Of course, the argument for it is full of holes (for instance, "gh"
only sounds like "f" if used at the end of a word - and indeed,
one could argue that ghoti should be an entirely silent word using
a spin on the same argument:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghoti#Silent_ghoti ).


From msd001 at gmail.com  Tue Aug 14 00:51:00 2012
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 20:51:00 -0400
Subject: [ExI] symmetrical 11-Venn discovered
In-Reply-To: <006501cd7970$ed96bf30$c8c43d90$@att.net>
References: <006501cd7970$ed96bf30$c8c43d90$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAOJFdbLC+veoCBtQNcMwEj+0ARvXqAK7XiuwnD6CrDSALOoqNw@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Aug 13, 2012 at 12:30 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> Kewall!
>
> I have long wondered about this.  If you draw a Venn diagram with the usual
> three sets which creates eight distinct regions, it is pretty
> straightforward, but it gets wacky complicated really fast.  The number of
> regions is 2^n, where n is the number of sets.  So what does a 4-Venn look
> like?  Can you draw one?  Check this, they claim to have discovered a way to
> make a symmetrical 11-Venn.  It looks right to me:
>
> http://cartesianproduct.wordpress.com/2012/08/12/venn-diagrams-for-11-sets/

Is there a relationship to fractal imagery?  Why are the numbers prime?

Perhaps outside the math nerdery, but why do some people find images
like this so compelling and beautiful?  I guess also interesting would
be why others simply do not.

I feel like Richard Dreyfuss' character in "Close Encounters..."
staring at a pile of mashed potatoes saying, "this is important"
despite having no idea why.


From kgh1kgh2 at gmail.com  Tue Aug 14 07:39:00 2012
From: kgh1kgh2 at gmail.com (Kevin G Haskell)
Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 03:39:00 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Article on Objectivism, Extropianism, and Transhumanism
Message-ID: <CAEUzo3K6jhdjW2x95QqLfh3oQj=0bsUjyMAtkecJC65imWJ3=g@mail.gmail.com>

I was just looking for something else regarding Ayn Rand and randomly
stumbled upon this excellent article, written 10 years ago by Marc Geddes
regarding the relationship between Objectivism, Transhumanism, and
Extropianism. It also mentions Max More.
Has anybody read this before?

Kevin

http://transhumanism.org/index.php/th/more/302/

-- 
 * Tweet me on Twitter! - @*KevinGHaskell
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From anders at aleph.se  Tue Aug 14 08:10:34 2012
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 10:10:34 +0200
Subject: [ExI] symmetrical 11-Venn discovered
In-Reply-To: <CAOJFdbLC+veoCBtQNcMwEj+0ARvXqAK7XiuwnD6CrDSALOoqNw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <006501cd7970$ed96bf30$c8c43d90$@att.net>
 <CAOJFdbLC+veoCBtQNcMwEj+0ARvXqAK7XiuwnD6CrDSALOoqNw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <502A07FA.1080109@aleph.se>

On 14/08/2012 02:51, Mike Dougherty wrote:
> Is there a relationship to fractal imagery? Why are the numbers prime?

There is a theorem by Henderson that states that a necessary condition 
for the existence of a symmetric n-Venn diagram is that n is a prime number.

D. W. Henderson,/Venn diagrams for more than four classes/, American 
Mathematical Monthly, 70 (1963) 424-426. http://www.jstor.org/stable/2311865

This later paper (which is freely accessible) states the basic argument 
(which is very clean and simple), and then goes on patching a serious 
hole in it:
http://www.math.umn.edu/~webb/Publications/monthly645-648-wagon.pdf 
<http://www.math.umn.edu/%7Ewebb/Publications/monthly645-648-wagon.pdf>


Fractals: I think this is mainly because of how the human mind works. We 
are bad at maintaining large amounts of information in working memory, 
so we like to work with modular or recursive objects: while the object 
is complicated, the method of making it is simple. So the successful 
methods of making multidomain Venn diagrams (see the examples on 
Wikipedia, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venn_diagram ) all tend to 
produce patterns that are fractal-like.

In general, I expect that fractals often emerge because the universe 
also tends to follow simple rather than complex programs. Even when 
these programs make organisms it is easier to grow and evolve recursive 
structures than non-recursive ones. So the important and deep question 
is what forces affect what programs get run, and what kind of simplicity 
is optimized for.


BTW, here is a stained glass Venn diagram from Gonville and Caius 
college in Cambridge:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/arenamontanus/3212655985/
I was eating breakfast in the hall when I noticed a familiar diagram in 
the stained glass windows. Then I noticed the other windows:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/arenamontanus/3213502484/in/photostream/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/arenamontanus/3213502248/in/photostream/
Venn, like the others, was a fellow there.

-- 
Anders Sandberg,
Future of Humanity Institute
Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University

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From cetico.iconoclasta at gmail.com  Tue Aug 14 12:49:53 2012
From: cetico.iconoclasta at gmail.com (Henrique Moraes Machado)
Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 09:49:53 -0300
Subject: [ExI] RES:  self driving cars again
In-Reply-To: <006c01cd7818$38eb5ef0$aac21cd0$@att.net>
References: <005c01cd7810$c1549c50$43fdd4f0$@att.net>
 <006c01cd7818$38eb5ef0$aac21cd0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <007501cd7a1b$4eab7ea0$ec027be0$@gmail.com>

<spike>
Young people, I am not kidding: back in the olden days, gas stations hired
guys to do that, for every customer.? It was so creepy!? I don?t like having
people do for me that which I can do myself.? By my great aunt really loves
it and misses that.? She has plenty of money and no children.? She is an
ideal candidate for that technology and that service.? She has pleeeenty of
friends just like her.? We could set up full service gas stations and
program the auto-campers to drive to those stations, or perhaps have a local
slacker who is paged by an incoming geezer, who then comes over and performs
the services for a tip.
</spike>


Would you think it's weird that, where I live, they tried to introduce
self-service gas stations and the workers syndicate lobbied and successfully
passed a bill that outlawed it? I do. So gas stations are required by law to
hire guys to do that, for every customer and customers are not permitted to
pump their own gas.




From scerir at alice.it  Tue Aug 14 14:28:37 2012
From: scerir at alice.it (scerir)
Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 16:28:37 +0200
Subject: [ExI] symmetrical 11-Venn discovered
In-Reply-To: <502A07FA.1080109@aleph.se>
References: <006501cd7970$ed96bf30$c8c43d90$@att.net>
 <CAOJFdbLC+veoCBtQNcMwEj+0ARvXqAK7XiuwnD6CrDSALOoqNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <502A07FA.1080109@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <306CB4F143654CE1824DB9D500F41137@PCserafino>

Anders writes:
> In general, I expect that fractals often emerge because the universe 
> also tends to follow simple rather than complex programs. Even when 
> these programs make organisms it is easier to grow and evolve recursive 
> structures than non-recursive ones. So the important and deep question 
> is what forces affect what programs get run, and what kind of simplicity 
> is optimized for.

That reminds me of a paper by Berry showing that a quantum wave
in a box evolves from a uniform state and the graph of the evolution
of the probability density is both fractal in space and in time. 
There are, in addition to these time and space fractals, infinitely 
many 'quantum revival' times, when the probability density is constant.
http://www.phy.bris.ac.uk/people/berry_mv/the_papers/Berry275.pdf

But there are chances that Anders already knows all that :-)





From spike66 at att.net  Tue Aug 14 14:44:19 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 07:44:19 -0700
Subject: [ExI] cost of renewable energy,
	was: RE:  RES:  self driving cars again
Message-ID: <006f01cd7a2b$49a4c550$dcee4ff0$@att.net>


>... On Behalf Of Henrique Moraes Machado
Subject: [ExI] RES: self driving cars again

<spike>
>>...Young people, I am not kidding: back in the olden days, gas stations
hired guys to do that, for every customer.? It was so creepy!? ...
</spike>


>...Would you think it's weird that, where I live, they tried to introduce
self-service gas stations and the workers syndicate lobbied and successfully
passed a bill that outlawed it? I do. So gas stations are required by law to
hire guys to do that, for every customer and customers are not permitted to
pump their own gas.
_______________________________________________

Henrique we have some states which do that, such as Oregon.  That particular
state was very hard hit by methamphetamines.  My dentist friend explained it
thus: you get a cold, runny nose, watery eyes, you take this medication, you
feel better.  Dopers make the logical extrapolation, what if you don't have
a cold and you take this medication, do you still feel better?  Yes.  Your
normal eyes are now dry, nasal passages dry, mouth dry, compensate with
soda, first choice Mountain Dew, twice the sugar, twice the caffeine.  Dry
mouth and lots of sugar creates bacteria heaven, pretty soon their teeth rot
out.  Would you hire some young person with no teeth?  I wouldn't; I would
have to assume they are or were meth addicts, NEXT!  Result: jillions of
toothless recovering addicts who are not employable.  Oregon legislature's
response: create a law requiring gas to be pumped by an attendant.  Well,
how hard is it to pump fuel?  Any bonehead can do it.  That policy mops up a
good percentage of the otherwise unemployable, and yes as Objectivist as I
am, I realize we need to give them some kind of job, or failing that,
dentures.  

Result: if you go to Oregon, you will likely have your gas pumped by a
toothless person, and you will pay a lot more for your gas.  Example, last
week I returned from a camping trip, paid 55 cents per gallon more in
Ashland Oregon than I did three hours south of there in Weed Taxifornia.

On a lighter note, here is a news story about what CA is paying for carbon
free energy:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/toddwoody/2012/02/07/california-reveals-price-it
-pays-for-renewable-energy/

Here is the report the above news story is based on:
 
http://www.cpuc.ca.gov/NR/rdonlyres/3B3FE98B-D833-428A-B606-47C9B64B7A89/0/Q
4RPSReporttotheLegislatureFINAL3.pdf

The table on page 17 gives the average 2011 PG&E contract price for new PV
from 3-20 MW systems as 11.39 cents/kWh.  A gallon of gasoline is about 38
kWh, so if we can estimate a conversion efficiency, this seems to suggest we
may be able to eventually solve our load leveling problem with the
renewables.

This was a surprise for me to find that solar energy isn't as expensive as I
thought.  PG&E sells it to me for 33 cents/kWh, so I assumed it costs nearly
that much to make, but they can buy it for 11.4 cents according to this
report, and that was the high end.  At that price, we are approaching
viability for solar and wind powered coal to liquid fuel conversion (I
confess I don't know much about the capital cost to build that plant.  Any
hipsters here on that?)  That would represent the highest price we would
ever need to pay for motor fuels, not counting the oddball cases where
toothless dopers run up the cost.

spike




From nanite1018 at gmail.com  Tue Aug 14 14:52:20 2012
From: nanite1018 at gmail.com (Joshua Job)
Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 10:52:20 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Article on Objectivism, Extropianism, and Transhumanism
In-Reply-To: <CAEUzo3K6jhdjW2x95QqLfh3oQj=0bsUjyMAtkecJC65imWJ3=g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEUzo3K6jhdjW2x95QqLfh3oQj=0bsUjyMAtkecJC65imWJ3=g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEtn_z04DA4KfAxJp-BFXpmj0RgS0pnVqcvYyKHmTr3YM8zhYQ@mail.gmail.com>

I've read it before, but thanks for posting it again. It grates on me a
bit, as it isn't as completely accurate depiction of Objectivism, but it's
okay generally. I'd say it makes several mistakes of misinterpretation
and/or misrepresentation, and that this causes most of his objections. I'm
a Randian Extropian, but don't identify as an Objectivist (I do have a few
philosophical disagreements, but they aren't huge).

I always thought Extropianism was a natural application of Objectivism to
transhumanist the technologies and ideas. The stress on reason,
self-improvement, and free markets that they both possess marks them good
bedfellows. At least as far as the Extropian Principles are concerned, they
seem to be quite compatible.
-Josh Job
On Aug 14, 2012 1:34 AM, "Kevin G Haskell" <kgh1kgh2 at gmail.com> wrote:

> I was just looking for something else regarding Ayn Rand and randomly
> stumbled upon this excellent article, written 10 years ago by Marc Geddes
> regarding the relationship between Objectivism, Transhumanism, and
> Extropianism. It also mentions Max More.
> Has anybody read this before?
>
> Kevin
>
> http://transhumanism.org/index.php/th/more/302/
>
> --
>  * Tweet me on Twitter! - @*KevinGHaskell
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From cetico.iconoclasta at gmail.com  Tue Aug 14 17:49:37 2012
From: cetico.iconoclasta at gmail.com (Henrique Moraes Machado)
Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 14:49:37 -0300
Subject: [ExI] RES:  cost of renewable energy,
	was: RE:  RES:  self driving cars again
In-Reply-To: <006f01cd7a2b$49a4c550$dcee4ff0$@att.net>
References: <006f01cd7a2b$49a4c550$dcee4ff0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <012d01cd7a45$2dfc6460$89f52d20$@gmail.com>


<spike>
Henrique we have some states which do that, such as Oregon.  That particular
state was very hard hit by methamphetamines.(...)
</spike> 

Holy velociraptor! This looks like the script for Monty Python sketch...



From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Tue Aug 14 18:19:53 2012
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 11:19:53 -0700
Subject: [ExI] More ranting on power sats
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB46CoEa1shJfoU3=AD6Yx4n6nDrAWRLWHL7gTUC0Foeaw@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 at 5:00 AM, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

snip

> If it can't do better than vanilla photovoltaics one can't help but ask if
> putting an object larger than a supertanker into geosynchronous orbit is
> really worth the gargantuan cost.

It does as well per area as PV does in the brightest part of a clear
day, but a rectenna produces that level of power virtually all the
time.

And you misread the documents.  500,000 tons of power sat parts builds
20 five GW units at 25,000 tons each.

>> about 99% of the time.
>>
>
> I assume that means when its not raining.

The worst rain storm on record was analyzed back in the 70s for power
sats.  It does take some energy out of the beam, but it's a relatively
small fraction.  I don't remember the exact numbers but it is nothing
to worry about.
>
>> It's a time of low demand
>
> I can see that 3am would be a time of low demand, but this would be around
> noon.
>
>> and if you have a grid, then we can "cross the beams" to keep the grid
>> fed from power sats out of the shadow.
>>
>
> This problem like all problems is solvable, but it's going to take even
> more money

This trick has no cost.

> and we're already talking about astronomical sums. If we can't
> get fusion to work I say fission Thorium reactors are a better long term
> solution.

Do you have a number on how long the thorium will last?  I be it isn't
very long if you try to use it as the primary energy source.

Keith


From mrjones2020 at gmail.com  Tue Aug 14 19:40:33 2012
From: mrjones2020 at gmail.com (J.R. Jones)
Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 15:40:33 -0400
Subject: [ExI] symmetrical 11-Venn discovered
In-Reply-To: <306CB4F143654CE1824DB9D500F41137@PCserafino>
References: <006501cd7970$ed96bf30$c8c43d90$@att.net>
 <CAOJFdbLC+veoCBtQNcMwEj+0ARvXqAK7XiuwnD6CrDSALOoqNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <502A07FA.1080109@aleph.se>
 <306CB4F143654CE1824DB9D500F41137@PCserafino>
Message-ID: <CADDVf2+=FdCpJewUoqVU-hd9Eey4EspHPR4OQfbztnnevvQcTw@mail.gmail.com>

On Aug 14, 2012 10:42 AM, "scerir" <scerir at alice.it> wrote:
>
> Anders writes:
>>
>> In general, I expect that fractals often emerge because the universe
also tends to follow simple rather than complex programs. Even when these
programs make organisms it is easier to grow and evolve recursive
structures than non-recursive ones. So the important and deep question is
what forces affect what programs get run, and what kind of simplicity is
optimized for.
>
>
> That reminds me of a paper by Berry showing that a quantum wave
> in a box evolves from a uniform state and the graph of the evolution
> of the probability density is both fractal in space and in time. There
are, in addition to these time and space fractals, infinitely many 'quantum
revival' times, when the probability density is constant.
> http://www.phy.bris.ac.uk/people/berry_mv/the_papers/Berry275.pdf
>
> But there are chances that Anders already knows all that :-)
>

All of this reminds me of

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_New_Kind_of_Science

Truly fascinating stuff.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
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From anders at aleph.se  Tue Aug 14 22:00:00 2012
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 00:00:00 +0200
Subject: [ExI] symmetrical 11-Venn discovered
In-Reply-To: <306CB4F143654CE1824DB9D500F41137@PCserafino>
References: <006501cd7970$ed96bf30$c8c43d90$@att.net>
 <CAOJFdbLC+veoCBtQNcMwEj+0ARvXqAK7XiuwnD6CrDSALOoqNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <502A07FA.1080109@aleph.se> <306CB4F143654CE1824DB9D500F41137@PCserafino>
Message-ID: <502ACA60.70608@aleph.se>

On 14/08/2012 16:28, scerir wrote:
> Anders writes:
>> In general, I expect that fractals often emerge because the universe 
>> also tends to follow simple rather than complex programs. Even when 
>> these programs make organisms it is easier to grow and evolve 
>> recursive structures than non-recursive ones. So the important and 
>> deep question is what forces affect what programs get run, and what 
>> kind of simplicity is optimized for.
>
> That reminds me of a paper by Berry showing that a quantum wave
> in a box evolves from a uniform state and the graph of the evolution
> of the probability density is both fractal in space and in time. There 
> are, in addition to these time and space fractals, infinitely many 
> 'quantum revival' times, when the probability density is constant.
> http://www.phy.bris.ac.uk/people/berry_mv/the_papers/Berry275.pdf
>
> But there are chances that Anders already knows all that :-)

I knew the rough outlines, but it is nice to see the paper. And it gets 
some elegant results with seemingly no effort.

In this case quantum mechanics adds an infinite series of periodic 
functions with a particular wavelength relation set by the boundary 
conditions: the fractal happens because there is energy at all scales 
(because of the uniform initial condition). The finite energy case is an 
approximate fractal.

I wonder if these fractals can be seen as the quantum mechanical analog 
to a random walk of a particle?

A new kind of science: sure, lots of complexity from short programs. But 
where do we get the programs from, and what is the measure?

-- 
Anders Sandberg,
Future of Humanity Institute
Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University



From scerir at alice.it  Wed Aug 15 07:49:04 2012
From: scerir at alice.it (scerir)
Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 09:49:04 +0200
Subject: [ExI] symmetrical 11-Venn discovered
In-Reply-To: <502ACA60.70608@aleph.se>
References: <006501cd7970$ed96bf30$c8c43d90$@att.net>
 <CAOJFdbLC+veoCBtQNcMwEj+0ARvXqAK7XiuwnD6CrDSALOoqNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <502A07FA.1080109@aleph.se> <306CB4F143654CE1824DB9D500F41137@PCserafino>
 <502ACA60.70608@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <2A9E82C903024A419D776F96498B286A@PCserafino>

Anders:
> I wonder if these fractals can be seen as the quantum mechanical analog 
> to a random walk of a particle?

Actually if one looks at those "quantum carpets" (link below)
http://www.phy.bris.ac.uk/people/berry_mv/the_papers/berry329.pdf
one has the perception of a sort of "walk", more ordered than random. 

Asher Peres wrote in his book: "Are you surprised? If so, this is 
the result of having been exposed to unfounded quantum superstitions, 
according to which quantum theory is afflicted by more "uncertainty" 
than classical mechanics. Exactly the opposite is true: quantum 
phenomena are more disciplined than classical ones."

As Berry himself pointed out "A quantum wave packet - representing 
an electron in an atom, for example - can be constructed from a 
superposition of highly excited stationary states so that it is localized 
near a point on the electron's classical orbit. If the packet is released, 
it starts to propagate around the orbit. This propagation is guaranteed 
by the correspondence principle: for highly excited states, quantum 
and classical physics must agree. The packet then spreads along the
orbit, and eventually fills it. (It also spreads transversely - that is
away from the orbit - but that is not important in this context.)
Over very long periods of time, however, something extraordinary
happens: the wave packet contracts and after a time, T_r, 
returns from the dead and reconstructs its initial form. This is a 
quantum revival. As time goes on, the revivals repeat. In a wide class 
of circumstances, the reconstructions are almost perfect."

Maybe there is no quantum chaos, in the sense of exponential sensitivity 
to initial conditions. But there are several novel quantum phenomena 
which may reflect the presence of a sort of chaos (or very strange attractors). 







From anders at aleph.se  Wed Aug 15 08:59:41 2012
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 10:59:41 +0200
Subject: [ExI] symmetrical 11-Venn discovered
In-Reply-To: <2A9E82C903024A419D776F96498B286A@PCserafino>
References: <006501cd7970$ed96bf30$c8c43d90$@att.net>
 <CAOJFdbLC+veoCBtQNcMwEj+0ARvXqAK7XiuwnD6CrDSALOoqNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <502A07FA.1080109@aleph.se> <306CB4F143654CE1824DB9D500F41137@PCserafino>
 <502ACA60.70608@aleph.se> <2A9E82C903024A419D776F96498B286A@PCserafino>
Message-ID: <502B64FD.4070405@aleph.se>

On 2012-08-15 09:49, scerir wrote:
> Anders:
>> I wonder if these fractals can be seen as the quantum mechanical
>> analog to a random walk of a particle?
>
> Actually if one looks at those "quantum carpets" (link below)
> http://www.phy.bris.ac.uk/people/berry_mv/the_papers/berry329.pdf
> one has the perception of a sort of "walk", more ordered than random.

Yeah, quantum mechanics is very ordered and "clean". It is ironic in the 
same way as relativity theory is about the things that are absolute to 
all observers.

Quantum chaos and whether it was "real" chaos or not was rather ho6tly 
discussed when I was doing a bit of dynamical systems. It still seems to 
be an active problem: it is not obvious how you can get sensitive 
dependence on initial condition out of a system where everything is 
essentially linear.

My own take on it is that the sloppiness and uncertainty we have about 
not just initial conditions but the exact system we are dealing with (we 
can never make exact boxes, there are slight disturbing external fields 
etc) produces more than enough randomness to smear out the nice quantum 
carpet regularities.

But the underlying mathematics of why we get such random structures as 
are shown on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_chaos still remains 
unclear: it might just be that it is a consequence of "borrowed" 
nonlinearity from force laws that makes the quantum states behave 
chaotically.

-- 
Anders Sandberg
Future of Humanity Institute
Oxford University


From anders at aleph.se  Wed Aug 15 09:07:18 2012
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 11:07:18 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Electromagnetic launcher efficiency
In-Reply-To: <005101cd796c$f68fa3d0$e3aeeb70$@att.net>
References: <5028D84C.50506@aleph.se> <005101cd796c$f68fa3d0$e3aeeb70$@att.net>
Message-ID: <502B66C6.50505@aleph.se>

On 2012-08-13 18:01, spike wrote:
> Anders, I don?t know where I last saw the equations on that, but it is an interesting question.

In a sense it goes back to the question what the entropy cost of moving 
something from A to B is. But here we also have the "real world" 
constraint that it has to be done using electromagnetic fields.

>  estimate half the waste energy goes into the track and half goes into the rollercoaster and the air

This is what has me worried. If a lot of heat goes into the launched 
object it will melt. Even a fairly modest railgun (kilometers per 
second) has more than enough energy to vaporise the object. The fact 
that naval raiguns doesn't launch puffs of metal is a good sign, but I 
would like to be sure this holds to really high velocities.


-- 
Anders Sandberg
Future of Humanity Institute
Oxford University


From johnkclark at gmail.com  Wed Aug 15 17:24:47 2012
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 13:24:47 -0400
Subject: [ExI] More ranting on power sats
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB46CoEa1shJfoU3=AD6Yx4n6nDrAWRLWHL7gTUC0Foeaw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB46CoEa1shJfoU3=AD6Yx4n6nDrAWRLWHL7gTUC0Foeaw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv1WXf8XBOwrzX=FghQq_KnM7mwy2sYvWsZRHuAvjt_E-w@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 at 2:19 PM, Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com>wrote:

> It does as well per area as PV does in the brightest part of a clear day,
> but a rectenna produces that level of power virtually all the time.
>

Considering the vast effort involved I'd really expect it to do better than
that. One of the main problems with solar is the vast amount of land
required due to the dilute nature of sunlight, and power satellites do not
solve that problem.


> > The worst rain storm on record was analyzed back in the 70s for power
> sats.  It does take some energy out of the beam, but it's a relatively
> small fraction.  I don't remember the exact numbers but it is nothing to
> worry about.
>

It depends on the microwave frequency, below about 4 GHZ rain doesn't
hinder communication satellites much but we're talking about power
satellites; if the power of the signal from a communications satellite
suddenly drops in half it's hardly noticed,  but if the output from a big
power plant suddenly drops in half it would cause havoc.  And for
frequencies higher than 4 GHZ or so rain starts to cause problems even for
communication.

>>> and if you have a grid, then we can "cross the beams" to keep the grid
>>> fed from power sats out of the shadow.
>>>
>>
>> > > This problem like all problems is solvable, but it's going to take
>> even more money
>>
>
> > This trick has no cost.
>

Directional antennas that are adjustable cost more than the non-adjustable
type, and 2 power satellites cost more than one.

> Do you have a number on how long the thorium will last?  I be it isn't
> very long if you try to use it as the primary energy source.
>

In the Earth's crust Thorium is about 4 times as abundant as Uranium which
makes it about as common as lead. And today all commercial Uranium reactors
are non-breeders, that means they only use U235 which is about one part in
143 of natural uranium, the remainder being U238 which can be used to breed
Plutonium for power but for several very good reasons it usually isn't, and
so nearly all of natural Uranium is just dead weight. By contrast natural
Thorium comes in only one isotope and reactors burn up 100% of it,  not
just .7% of the Uranium as in existing reactors; so the human race can
expect to get 4*143= 572 times as much energy from Thorium as they get from
Uranium.  And Uranium reactors have many problems but acute uranium
shortage is not near the top of the list.

  John K Clark
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From eugen at leitl.org  Wed Aug 15 17:35:15 2012
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 19:35:15 +0200
Subject: [ExI] More ranting on power sats
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv1WXf8XBOwrzX=FghQq_KnM7mwy2sYvWsZRHuAvjt_E-w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB46CoEa1shJfoU3=AD6Yx4n6nDrAWRLWHL7gTUC0Foeaw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1WXf8XBOwrzX=FghQq_KnM7mwy2sYvWsZRHuAvjt_E-w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120815173515.GO12615@leitl.org>

On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 01:24:47PM -0400, John Clark wrote:
> On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 at 2:19 PM, Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com>wrote:
> 
> > It does as well per area as PV does in the brightest part of a clear day,
> > but a rectenna produces that level of power virtually all the time.
> >
> 
> Considering the vast effort involved I'd really expect it to do better than
> that. One of the main problems with solar is the vast amount of land

The vast amount of land already covered with roofs, buildings and other
structures, you mean?

> required due to the dilute nature of sunlight, and power satellites do not

You say dilute, I say Goldilocks. Houses can be self-powering, and no
roof has melted down into a puddle of corium yet.

> solve that problem.

That's because that is not the problem they're trying to solve. 
The problem they're trying to power PW scale cultures.
 
> 
> > > The worst rain storm on record was analyzed back in the 70s for power
> > sats.  It does take some energy out of the beam, but it's a relatively
> > small fraction.  I don't remember the exact numbers but it is nothing to
> > worry about.
> >
> 
> It depends on the microwave frequency, below about 4 GHZ rain doesn't
> hinder communication satellites much but we're talking about power
> satellites; if the power of the signal from a communications satellite
> suddenly drops in half it's hardly noticed,  but if the output from a big
> power plant suddenly drops in half it would cause havoc.  And for
> frequencies higher than 4 GHZ or so rain starts to cause problems even for
> communication.
> 
> >>> and if you have a grid, then we can "cross the beams" to keep the grid
> >>> fed from power sats out of the shadow.
> >>>
> >>
> >> > > This problem like all problems is solvable, but it's going to take
> >> even more money
> >>
> >
> > > This trick has no cost.
> >
> 
> Directional antennas that are adjustable cost more than the non-adjustable
> type, and 2 power satellites cost more than one.
> 
> > Do you have a number on how long the thorium will last?  I be it isn't
> > very long if you try to use it as the primary energy source.
> >
> 
> In the Earth's crust Thorium is about 4 times as abundant as Uranium which
> makes it about as common as lead. And today all commercial Uranium reactors
> are non-breeders, that means they only use U235 which is about one part in
> 143 of natural uranium, the remainder being U238 which can be used to breed
> Plutonium for power but for several very good reasons it usually isn't, and
> so nearly all of natural Uranium is just dead weight. By contrast natural
> Thorium comes in only one isotope and reactors burn up 100% of it,  not
> just .7% of the Uranium as in existing reactors; so the human race can
> expect to get 4*143= 572 times as much energy from Thorium as they get from
> Uranium.  And Uranium reactors have many problems but acute uranium
> shortage is not near the top of the list.
> 
>   John K Clark

> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

-- 
Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE


From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Wed Aug 15 21:38:53 2012
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 17:38:53 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Bucky Balls Could Double Your Lifespan
In-Reply-To: <CAPy8RwZZEoD6k2YDf-aMm9zrBq_vg3dRJ70Hfey-cKks4Hs=aA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADDVf2KeUUqFkpwrKxdAOf05c1pe4qUpJhNZ+bR_sYdvm=hU7Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <1344538868.80049.YahooMailNeo@web126205.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAPy8RwZZEoD6k2YDf-aMm9zrBq_vg3dRJ70Hfey-cKks4Hs=aA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAAc1gFis+VmY3k_eagaK4XFtHYp3jSHg9Aj2ZY6dXFDSwCH0xg@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 11:28 AM, Kelly Anderson <kellycoinguy at gmail.com> wrote:

> So how many here actually floss daily?

### I do. If you use disposable flossers rather than spooled floss
it's actually quite easy, takes less than a minute. I found that
flossing with toothpaste in your mouth is more effective, you can feel
the interdental surfaces getting clean and less gooey as you do it. I
floss only once a day but this is still better than nothing, and I
noticed that whenever I miss it for a few days I tend to get a bit of
gum bleeding which is a common symptom of mild gingivitis, so it looks
like flossing does work to reduce my level of inflammation - and this
in turn has been linked to longer survival in better health.

Rafal


From spike66 at att.net  Wed Aug 15 23:22:55 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 16:22:55 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Bucky Balls Could Double Your Lifespan
In-Reply-To: <CAAc1gFis+VmY3k_eagaK4XFtHYp3jSHg9Aj2ZY6dXFDSwCH0xg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADDVf2KeUUqFkpwrKxdAOf05c1pe4qUpJhNZ+bR_sYdvm=hU7Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <1344538868.80049.YahooMailNeo@web126205.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAPy8RwZZEoD6k2YDf-aMm9zrBq_vg3dRJ70Hfey-cKks4Hs=aA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFis+VmY3k_eagaK4XFtHYp3jSHg9Aj2ZY6dXFDSwCH0xg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00ab01cd7b3c$e6a96dd0$b3fc4970$@att.net>


On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 11:28 AM, Kelly Anderson <kellycoinguy at gmail.com>
wrote:

> ...So how many here actually floss daily?

_______________________________________________

I managed to reverse mild gingivitis not with dental floss but with a
waterpik.  My dentist suggested I start coming into the office thrice a year
instead of the usual twice, for cleaning.  My hygienist is such a dazzling
knockout, I am tempted to devour a tall bag of oreos before the appointment,
just so she would need to work on me longer.  However, I chose the more
boring but far less expensive route of trying the waterpik with a
disinfectant mouthwash.  The waterpik without the disinfectant can make the
problem worse, but pushing debris into the pockets.  But Listerine or
equivalent in the water tightened those pockets right up, and now I have no
more problem with it, haven't for over a decade.  Of course I still enjoy
having her work on me twice a year.  That is some of the best pain I ever
get.  Furthermore, there are no guilt feelings if it is the dental hygienist
poking her ample boosoms into the side of my head (hey, I am just a passive
participant here.)  

No, I will not tell you who is my dentist; that hygienist is MINE.

Which leads me to a question.  We often hear about some hapless prole
meeting such a horrifying violent demise, they need to consult dental
records to establish the identity of the mangled remains.  But if they can't
even figure out who I am, how the heck are they going to know who is my
dentist?  And if they do, they might have read the above and that lad would
be swamped with clients wanting to ogle his, or rather MY, gorgeous and
buxom hygienist from close range, oy vey.  I shall have to double my efforts
to not be involved in an identity-obliterating accident, to prevent all the
scurrilous dogs at the mortuary from finding my hygienist, horny wretches
that they surely are.

But I digress.

What was the original question?  Oh yes, Kelly, dental floss.  Not me,
never.  It causes the dental hygienist to finish too quickly.

spike



From mbb386 at main.nc.us  Thu Aug 16 00:03:00 2012
From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB)
Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 20:03:00 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Bucky Balls Could Double Your Lifespan
In-Reply-To: <CAAc1gFis+VmY3k_eagaK4XFtHYp3jSHg9Aj2ZY6dXFDSwCH0xg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADDVf2KeUUqFkpwrKxdAOf05c1pe4qUpJhNZ+bR_sYdvm=hU7Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <1344538868.80049.YahooMailNeo@web126205.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAPy8RwZZEoD6k2YDf-aMm9zrBq_vg3dRJ70Hfey-cKks4Hs=aA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFis+VmY3k_eagaK4XFtHYp3jSHg9Aj2ZY6dXFDSwCH0xg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <45121d114f8422c0484c4718ea1e46b0.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>



> On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 11:28 AM, Kelly Anderson
> <kellycoinguy at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> So how many here actually floss daily?
>

I do. Every day.  Evening, before going to bed. I use the
regular spool of floss. Makes my mouth feel better in the
night and taste better in the morning. I can tell the
difference if I neglect it. Not bleeding, but more
sensitive gums.

I shall try it with the toothpaste as Rafal suggests, see
what I think of that. :)

Regards,
MB



From kgh1kgh2 at gmail.com  Thu Aug 16 14:15:27 2012
From: kgh1kgh2 at gmail.com (Kevin G Haskell)
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2012 10:15:27 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Article on Objectivism, Extropianism, andTranshumanism
Message-ID: <CAEUzo3Koein1Q+bF2tQy6j7vq8MJmqP6+o=sri8yP8T+q-+Z1A@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue 14, 2012, Joshua Job wrote:
>> I've read it before, but thanks for posting it again. It grates on me a
bit, as it isn't as completely accurate depiction of Objectivism, but it's
okay generally. I'd say it makes several mistakes of misinterpretation
and/or misrepresentation, and that this causes most of his objections. I'm
a Randian Extropian, but don't identify as an Objectivist (I do have a few
philosophical disagreements, but they aren't huge).

I always thought Extropianism was a natural application of Objectivism to
transhumanist the technologies and ideas. The stress on reason,
self-improvement, and free markets that they both possess marks them good
bedfellows. At least as far as the Extropian Principles are concerned, they
seem to be quite compatible.
>>-Josh Job

Thanks, Josh. That's pretty much how I saw it, as well, regarding the
relationship between Objectivism and Extropianism, and as I see it,
Extropianism being being the pre-cursor concept to Transhumanism, then it
also applies to Transhumanism. To me, more importantly, it also applies to
Singularitarianism. But that should be another article.

Thanks.
Best,
Kevin
-- 
 * Tweet me on Twitter! - @*KevinGHaskell
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From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Thu Aug 16 16:43:49 2012
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2012 09:43:49 -0700
Subject: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 107, Issue 19
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1345118401.12720.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.1.1345118401.12720.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB7pPjK1WnCvOfk0gRpLaAwtTT7PE=ywL+EJ24TFYLcSGQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 5:00 AM,  John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 at 2:19 PM, Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> It does as well per area as PV does in the brightest part of a clear day,
>> but a rectenna produces that level of power virtually all the time.
>>
> Considering the vast effort involved I'd really expect it to do better than
> that. One of the main problems with solar is the vast amount of land
> required due to the dilute nature of sunlight, and power satellites do not
> solve that problem.

Power sat rectennas are about 100 km^2 and produce 5 GW.  or 50 W/m^2,
1.2 kWh per day per square meter.  There are ways to cut the area by a
factor of 4 by putting several together at the cost of awfully large
concentrations of power.  At 200 kWh/person per day ~ 170 square
meters.  For 60 million people, 10,000 km^2.  That's about 4 % of the
UK land area, where 46% used for pastures and 25% used for
agriculture.  Rectennas, because they let 95% of the light through,
should not interfere with either use.

It would take 5 times as much area to so the same with PV, you cannot
reuse the land under PV for growing food, and you have a huge storage
problem.

>> > The worst rain storm on record was analyzed back in the 70s for power
>> sats.  It does take some energy out of the beam, but it's a relatively
>> small fraction.  I don't remember the exact numbers but it is nothing to
>> worry about.
>>
>
> It depends on the microwave frequency, below about 4 GHZ rain doesn't
> hinder communication satellites much but we're talking about power
> satellites; if the power of the signal from a communications satellite
> suddenly drops in half it's hardly noticed,  but if the output from a big
> power plant suddenly drops in half it would cause havoc.

Not really.  You have to understand how cheap these things are.  They
produce power at less cost than any other way.  If they can't be made
that cheap, then there is no point in building them at all.  So we
over build them to supply the maximum power demand.  What do you do
with the difference between maximum and current demand?  You feed it
to hydrogen plants and feed the hydrogen into making synthetic fuel.
So if the output of one drops by half (which takes a really rare
rainstorm) and they cut back a couple of GW being fed into making
hydrogen.

> And for
> frequencies higher than 4 GHZ or so rain starts to cause problems even for
> communication.
>
>>>> and if you have a grid, then we can "cross the beams" to keep the grid
>>>> fed from power sats out of the shadow.
>>>>
>>>
>>> > > This problem like all problems is solvable, but it's going to take
>>> even more money
>>>
>> > This trick has no cost.
>>
> Directional antennas that are adjustable cost more than the non-adjustable
> type,

A circle on the earth at 45 deg latitude is about 26,650 km long.  The
eclipse at 70 minutes would be 1300 km wide, the distance to GEO
~40,000 km.  The angle from GEO is about 2 deg.  So crossing the beams
to keep some of the rectennas supplied with power from outside the
eclipsed zone in GEO would mean taking power from satellites 2 deg off
from straight to GEO.  At the receiving end, that's not enough to be
concerned about, considering the rectenna is 45% off axis from the
power sat due to latitude.

At the transmitting end, the antenna is mechanically pointed toward
the receiving station on the ground.

I don't understand where directional antennas are needed.

> and 2 power satellites cost more than one.

That's obviously true, but how does it apply?  All the power
satellites are used all the time possible.  The question is: Can we
cope with a reduction to half the generation in a time zone for a few
weeks in the spring and fall of the year around local midnight?

With a little forethought as to where the power sats and rectennas
pairs are located, it seems it would cause no problem even if SBSP was
used to supply 100% of electric power.

>> Do you have a number on how long the thorium will last?  I be it isn't
>> very long if you try to use it as the primary energy source.
>>
> In the Earth's crust Thorium is about 4 times as abundant as Uranium which
> makes it about as common as lead. And today all commercial Uranium reactors
> are non-breeders, that means they only use U235 which is about one part in
> 143 of natural uranium, the remainder being U238 which can be used to breed
> Plutonium for power but for several very good reasons it usually isn't, and
> so nearly all of natural Uranium is just dead weight. By contrast natural
> Thorium comes in only one isotope and reactors burn up 100% of it,  not
> just .7% of the Uranium as in existing reactors; so the human race can
> expect to get 4*143= 572 times as much energy from Thorium as they get from
> Uranium.  And Uranium reactors have many problems but acute uranium
> shortage is not near the top of the list.

That wasn't the question.  If the human race were pulling the majority
of power from thorium reactors, how long would it last?  I think the
answer will concern you

I have seen this derived and remember the order of magnitude, though I
don't remember where.

Keith


From bbenzai at yahoo.com  Thu Aug 16 19:07:00 2012
From: bbenzai at yahoo.com (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2012 12:07:00 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Bucky Balls Could Double Your Lifespan
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1345118401.12720.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <1345144020.75903.YahooMailClassic@web114401.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

> > On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 11:28 AM, Kelly Anderson
> > <kellycoinguy at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >> So how many here actually floss daily?

I have to admit, this question (and the rest of the original post) rather flummoxed me.

If anyone was actually serious about wanting to maximise their lifespan, why on earth would a minimally bothersome thing like flossing, when it's almost certainly beneficial, be regarded as too onerous?

I'm no Ray Kurzweil, but I floss, exercise frequently and often vigorously, get plenty of sleep, eat plenty of good fatty meat and leafy vegetables, minimise the carbohydrates and junk food, and take a slew of vitamins, and it's /no bother/.  Honestly.  All these (effortless, mostly) things make me feel much better than I used to, and have improved my physical condition no end, so even if they don't affect my lifespan, they are definitely worth doing.

I know everyone is different, but good grief, man, FLOSS!  What will it cost you?  And it might make the difference between dying of a premature heart attack and living past 120.

Ben Zaiboc



From spike66 at att.net  Thu Aug 16 21:11:21 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2012 14:11:21 -0700
Subject: [ExI] magnet toys
Message-ID: <00b201cd7bf3$b0436a90$10ca3fb0$@att.net>

This is a cool toy.  I haven't ever seen them before.  Kinda reminds you of
carbon atoms:

 

http://www.wimp.com/zenmagnet/

 

 

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From anders at aleph.se  Thu Aug 16 23:07:25 2012
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2012 01:07:25 +0200
Subject: [ExI] magnet toys
In-Reply-To: <00b201cd7bf3$b0436a90$10ca3fb0$@att.net>
References: <00b201cd7bf3$b0436a90$10ca3fb0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <502D7D2D.2030009@aleph.se>

On 2012-08-16 23:11, spike wrote:
> This is a cool toy.  I haven?t ever seen them before.  Kinda reminds you
> of carbon atoms:
>
> http://www.wimp.com/zenmagnet/

They were sold as buckyballs on ThinkGeek, although there has been 
concerns about kids ingesting them (and you really don't want rare 
earths magnets sticking across intestines, ow ow ow!) So together with 
the "Bucky Balls Could Double Your Lifespan" thread I got a weird 
crossover.

Very fun toys. I like making microtubules out of them. Or placing some 
on top and some under my glass table.


-- 
Anders Sandberg
Future of Humanity Institute
Oxford University


From johnkclark at gmail.com  Fri Aug 17 00:43:38 2012
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2012 20:43:38 -0400
Subject: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 107, Issue 19
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB7pPjK1WnCvOfk0gRpLaAwtTT7PE=ywL+EJ24TFYLcSGQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1345118401.12720.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <CAPiwVB7pPjK1WnCvOfk0gRpLaAwtTT7PE=ywL+EJ24TFYLcSGQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv2hbS9abF9Ozirnfo1CDqLSvWnskWcCip6B19P+OjgySA@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 12:43 PM, Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com>wrote

> You have to understand how cheap these things are.  They produce power at
less cost than any other way.  If they can't be made that cheap, then there
is no point in building them at all.

Cheap? Find a way to cheaply put something as small as a life jacket into
low earth orbit, actually do it in reality and not just on paper, and then
it might be meaningful to talk about how much it would cost to put a
supertanker into geosynchronous orbit; until then all the cost numbers are
imaginary numbers not real numbers.  And I hope I'm wrong, I hope you can
find a way to make power satellites work.

> That wasn't the question.  If the human race were pulling the majority of
> power from thorium reactors, how long would it [Thorium] last?
>

The amount of coal mined per year worldwide is about 6 billion tons, the
USA accounts for only about 1 billion tons of that. One ton of Thorium
contains as much energy as 3 million tons of coal so you'd need 2 thousand
tons of Thorium to equal coal. The U.S.Geological Survey's latest estimate
says that one company, Thorium Energy Inc, has  915,000 tons of thorium
reserves in Idaho and Montana. That alone could replace coal for about 450
years, and that's just from the claims that one company has in 2 states.
And Norway has as much Thorium as the entire USA,  and Australia about
twice as much, and India has about 3 times as much. And we've already
discovered Thorium deposits on the Moon and Mars.

Although it would be more economical to mine high quality ore that can
approach 50% Thorium content first, if at random you picked one cubic meter
of rock anywhere in the Earth's crust you would find about 12 grams of
Thorium in it. if placed in a liquid Thorium reactor 12 grams would produce
the energy equivalent of 37 tons of coal, enough to power one person's
western middle class lifestyle for about a decade.

Or Imagine it this way, the entire Earth's crust (and then some) being made
of nothing but coal, every rock you have ever seen in your life was made of
pure coal and you're worried about running out of coal. Finding enough free
oxygen to burn up all that coal would be a legitimate concern, but running
low of that fossil fuel itself not so much.

 > I think the answer will concern you
>

It's true that large as it is we will eventually run out of Thorium, does
this concern me? About as much as global warming concerns me. Not much.

  John K Clark
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From pharos at gmail.com  Fri Aug 17 07:38:09 2012
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2012 08:38:09 +0100
Subject: [ExI] magnet toys
In-Reply-To: <502D7D2D.2030009@aleph.se>
References: <00b201cd7bf3$b0436a90$10ca3fb0$@att.net>
 <502D7D2D.2030009@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <CAL_armiTdqYhR42x_TSQecxFR5CUT_ncnuy8M0SOsCXPGH=aZA@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 12:07 AM, Anders Sandberg wrote:
> They were sold as buckyballs on ThinkGeek, although there has been concerns
> about kids ingesting them (and you really don't want rare earths magnets
> sticking across intestines, ow ow ow!) So together with the "Bucky Balls
> Could Double Your Lifespan" thread I got a weird crossover.
>
>

Yes, The CPSC is trying to ban them and there are lawsuits in progress.

<http://www.aboutlawsuits.com/buckyball-toy-ban-31041/>

For young children, these ball-bearings magnets look very like the
silver balls decoration on fancy cakes. And older children have used
them to simulate tongue and lip piercings. And it is difficult for
adults to know if one or two from the 200 box have gone missing.

On the other hand children get far more injuries from garden
trampolines or skateboards.


BillK


From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Fri Aug 17 15:04:20 2012
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2012 08:04:20 -0700
Subject: [ExI] cost of SBSP and thorium
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB49rbKHSPDDvNYENJ24Mnbb1nTFoEhmVwjweT8FxZ7ofg@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 5:00 AM,  John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 12:43 PM, Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com>wrote
>
>> You have to understand how cheap these things are.  They produce power at
> less cost than any other way.  If they can't be made that cheap, then there
> is no point in building them at all.
>
> Cheap? Find a way to cheaply put something as small as a life jacket into
> low earth orbit, actually do it in reality and not just on paper, and then
> it might be meaningful to talk about how much it would cost to put a
> supertanker into geosynchronous orbit; until then all the cost numbers are
> imaginary numbers not real numbers.  And I hope I'm wrong, I hope you can
> find a way to make power satellites work.

There are sound engineering reasons that a few pounds by itself will
always be expensive.  It's like the difference in transport cost
between a FedEx letter and a trainload of coal.

And real projects, power lines, dams, power plants (thorium included)
always started with imaginary ideas.  Physics, math, economics lets
you filter out the ones that obviously will not work, the rest might
work if something unexpected doesn't come along.

I might add that there are no thorium power reactors in spite of
places like India having a lot of it and needed energy badly.  Why?

For power sats, I can tell you one reason.  Before early this year
there were no proposals to get the transport cost down to where power
sats made sense.

>> That wasn't the question.  If the human race were pulling the majority of
>> power from thorium reactors, how long would it [Thorium] last?
>>
>
> The amount of coal mined per year worldwide is about 6 billion tons, the
> USA accounts for only about 1 billion tons of that. One ton of Thorium
> contains as much energy as 3 million tons of coal so you'd need 2 thousand
> tons of Thorium to equal coal. The U.S.Geological Survey's latest estimate
> says that one company, Thorium Energy Inc, has  915,000 tons of thorium
> reserves in Idaho and Montana. That alone could replace coal for about 450
> years, and that's just from the claims that one company has in 2 states.
> And Norway has as much Thorium as the entire USA,  and Australia about
> twice as much, and India has about 3 times as much. And we've already
> discovered Thorium deposits on the Moon and Mars.

I think the chances of mining thorium on the Moon or Mars is close to
zero.  If we had that kind of space presence, power sats would be the
obvious choice.

By taking the known and projected reserves and figuring in using
thorium to make synthetic fuels (unless you want to give up jet
travel) and world wide energy growth rates, the thorium doesn't last
as long as a century.  Now admittedly that's probably long enough to
reach the singularity and who knows what the energy situation will be
then.  More?  Less?  Hard to say.  Going from none to 30,000 one GW
thorium burners is as much of a boggle factor going from none to 30 TW
of power sats.  Or so it seems to me.

Keith


From eugen at leitl.org  Fri Aug 17 15:51:42 2012
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2012 17:51:42 +0200
Subject: [ExI] magnet toys
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armiTdqYhR42x_TSQecxFR5CUT_ncnuy8M0SOsCXPGH=aZA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <00b201cd7bf3$b0436a90$10ca3fb0$@att.net>
 <502D7D2D.2030009@aleph.se>
 <CAL_armiTdqYhR42x_TSQecxFR5CUT_ncnuy8M0SOsCXPGH=aZA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120817155142.GO12615@leitl.org>

On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 08:38:09AM +0100, BillK wrote:

> Yes, The CPSC is trying to ban them and there are lawsuits in progress.
> 
> <http://www.aboutlawsuits.com/buckyball-toy-ban-31041/>
> 
> For young children, these ball-bearings magnets look very like the
> silver balls decoration on fancy cakes. And older children have used
> them to simulate tongue and lip piercings. And it is difficult for
> adults to know if one or two from the 200 box have gone missing.
> 
> On the other hand children get far more injuries from garden
> trampolines or skateboards.

Don't forget to ban swimming pools. 


From spike66 at att.net  Fri Aug 17 15:43:04 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2012 08:43:04 -0700
Subject: [ExI] cost of SBSP and thorium
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB49rbKHSPDDvNYENJ24Mnbb1nTFoEhmVwjweT8FxZ7ofg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB49rbKHSPDDvNYENJ24Mnbb1nTFoEhmVwjweT8FxZ7ofg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <009401cd7c8e$fe4e0a60$faea1f20$@att.net>


>... On Behalf Of Keith Henson
...

>...There are sound engineering reasons that a few pounds by itself will
always be expensive.  It's like the difference in transport cost between a
FedEx letter and a trainload of coal.  Keith

Another example is that the cost of delivering a single gram to LEO isn't
all that much lower than the cost of delivering 100 kg, if you are needing
specific orbit parameters.  It is well above that before the cost starts to
scale proportional to payload.  This assumes away of course the getaway
specials they used to have when we had a shuttle, which were one kg class
payloads.  I don't know if there is anything analogous to those
opportunities today.

spike



From eugen at leitl.org  Fri Aug 17 16:25:21 2012
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2012 18:25:21 +0200
Subject: [ExI] cost of SBSP and thorium
In-Reply-To: <009401cd7c8e$fe4e0a60$faea1f20$@att.net>
References: <CAPiwVB49rbKHSPDDvNYENJ24Mnbb1nTFoEhmVwjweT8FxZ7ofg@mail.gmail.com>
 <009401cd7c8e$fe4e0a60$faea1f20$@att.net>
Message-ID: <20120817162521.GR12615@leitl.org>

On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 08:43:04AM -0700, spike wrote:

> Another example is that the cost of delivering a single gram to LEO isn't
> all that much lower than the cost of delivering 100 kg, if you are needing
> specific orbit parameters.  It is well above that before the cost starts to
> scale proportional to payload.  This assumes away of course the getaway
> specials they used to have when we had a shuttle, which were one kg class
> payloads.  I don't know if there is anything analogous to those
> opportunities today.

You've got microsats and nanosats, down to cubesats which take
a ride on a sat bus.


From eugen at leitl.org  Fri Aug 17 16:56:42 2012
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2012 18:56:42 +0200
Subject: [ExI] cost of SBSP and thorium
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB49rbKHSPDDvNYENJ24Mnbb1nTFoEhmVwjweT8FxZ7ofg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB49rbKHSPDDvNYENJ24Mnbb1nTFoEhmVwjweT8FxZ7ofg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120817165642.GV12615@leitl.org>

On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 08:04:20AM -0700, Keith Henson wrote:

> I might add that there are no thorium power reactors in spite of
> places like India having a lot of it and needed energy badly.  Why?

That's because alternative fuelcycle breeders don't exist.
If they can be made to work, which is doubtful, they will not
arrive on time to make a visible difference.

Ditto solar power satellites. However, if we manage the
transition to renewable we will need SPS rather soon, as
photons caught by photovoltaics can't be used for
photosynthesis, and we're already appropriating a considerable
fraction of the planet's net photosynthetic production.
 
> For power sats, I can tell you one reason.  Before early this year
> there were no proposals to get the transport cost down to where power
> sats made sense.
> 
> >> That wasn't the question.  If the human race were pulling the majority of
> >> power from thorium reactors, how long would it [Thorium] last?
> >>
> >
> > The amount of coal mined per year worldwide is about 6 billion tons, the
> > USA accounts for only about 1 billion tons of that. One ton of Thorium
> > contains as much energy as 3 million tons of coal so you'd need 2 thousand
> > tons of Thorium to equal coal. The U.S.Geological Survey's latest estimate
> > says that one company, Thorium Energy Inc, has  915,000 tons of thorium
> > reserves in Idaho and Montana. That alone could replace coal for about 450
> > years, and that's just from the claims that one company has in 2 states.
> > And Norway has as much Thorium as the entire USA,  and Australia about
> > twice as much, and India has about 3 times as much. And we've already
> > discovered Thorium deposits on the Moon and Mars.
> 
> I think the chances of mining thorium on the Moon or Mars is close to
> zero.  If we had that kind of space presence, power sats would be the
> obvious choice.
> 
> By taking the known and projected reserves and figuring in using
> thorium to make synthetic fuels (unless you want to give up jet
> travel) and world wide energy growth rates, the thorium doesn't last
> as long as a century.  Now admittedly that's probably long enough to
> reach the singularity and who knows what the energy situation will be
> then.  More?  Less?  Hard to say.  Going from none to 30,000 one GW
> thorium burners is as much of a boggle factor going from none to 30 TW
> of power sats.  Or so it seems to me.
> 
> Keith
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
-- 
Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE


From atymes at gmail.com  Fri Aug 17 16:58:12 2012
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2012 09:58:12 -0700
Subject: [ExI] cost of SBSP and thorium
In-Reply-To: <20120817162521.GR12615@leitl.org>
References: <CAPiwVB49rbKHSPDDvNYENJ24Mnbb1nTFoEhmVwjweT8FxZ7ofg@mail.gmail.com>
 <009401cd7c8e$fe4e0a60$faea1f20$@att.net>
 <20120817162521.GR12615@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNTefYvviYJDWA-ZEB1YiiexNtC-hTFU36rPKrFS=fB-5g@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 9:25 AM, Eugen Leitl <eugen at leitl.org> wrote:
> On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 08:43:04AM -0700, spike wrote:
>> Another example is that the cost of delivering a single gram to LEO isn't
>> all that much lower than the cost of delivering 100 kg, if you are needing
>> specific orbit parameters.  It is well above that before the cost starts to
>> scale proportional to payload.  This assumes away of course the getaway
>> specials they used to have when we had a shuttle, which were one kg class
>> payloads.  I don't know if there is anything analogous to those
>> opportunities today.
>
> You've got microsats and nanosats, down to cubesats which take
> a ride on a sat bus.

Sat buses aren't "specific orbit parameters".  I've been working on a way
to launch single CubeSats (~1 kg) as their own missions, which could
allow for specific orbit parameters, for under $100K.  (The specific intent
is to reduce the minimum cost to get something into space, for those
who can only get double-digit-million dollar budgets after they demonstrate
with less - which is most of the private sector.) Whether or not I succeed,
if it's theoretically possible for me, then it's theoretically possible for the
kind of organization that would be needed to make and launch space
power sats.


From johnkclark at gmail.com  Fri Aug 17 19:00:21 2012
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2012 15:00:21 -0400
Subject: [ExI] cost of SBSP and thorium
In-Reply-To: <20120817165642.GV12615@leitl.org>
References: <CAPiwVB49rbKHSPDDvNYENJ24Mnbb1nTFoEhmVwjweT8FxZ7ofg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120817165642.GV12615@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv1mt8kF1ee0qDscVKPv2mR+QpGzeEziG_KG-=e_z7Datw@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 Eugen Leitl <eugen at leitl.org> wrote:


> > alternative fuelcycle breeders don't exist.
>

Thorium reactors don't exist today, but they did 40 years ago, the idea
wasn't pursued because they aren't much good for making materials for
bombs, and because they already had reactors that worked pretty well in
submarines and the Navy didn't want to confuse the issue and dilute
resources with something radically new, and because, for reasons that have
nothing to do with science, no technology is more resistant to change than
nuclear technology.

> If they can be made to work, which is doubtful,


Have the laws of physics changed in the last 40 years?

> they will not arrive on time to make a visible difference. Ditto solar
> power satellites.


Eugen, are you really so certain that bio fuel is so very different in this
regard that you refuse to even consider a alternative? What if it turns out
that its not quite as wonderful as you think?

  John K Clark
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From sparge at gmail.com  Fri Aug 17 18:15:20 2012
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2012 14:15:20 -0400
Subject: [ExI] =?windows-1252?q?Niall_Ferguson=3A_Don=92t_Believe_the_Tech?=
	=?windows-1252?q?no-Utopian_Hype?=
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2eL5opC4-iLCSgxt2Y0GwE8Qyb3oNuxPcFQ0S1wPitPZQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Google+, David Brin shared the link:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2012/07/29/niall-ferguson-don-t-believe-the-techno-utopian-hype.html

Here's what Brin had to say:

"Niall Ferguson on the gap between technological optimism and economic
pessimism: The things Ferguson says are mostly true... yet when I am around
Singularity guys, I am always the grouch in the room. Only followers of Fox
News seem to have less grasp of history than the transhumanist zealots, who
think Moore's Law will automatically make us all gods in a decade or two.
On the other hand, Ferguson is a tad superficial here -- For example, while
the middle class may have stagnated in the U.S. -- (what would you expect,
when a vast portion of their wealth is simply being handed to a neo-feudal
oligarchy?) -- Ferguson ignores the far more significant news, the
fantastic rise of middle classes in developing nations.  The rate at which
the next generation is becoming more educated and technologically empowered
in China, India and even Africa is positively stunning... a vast social
leap that has been propelled largely by the American consumer and WalMart.
 Any "economist" who ignores the yang side of this yin-yang, the way the
world sum is overwhelmingly positive, is simply a fool."

-Dave
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Fri Aug 17 20:05:14 2012
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2012 16:05:14 -0400
Subject: [ExI] cost of SBSP and thorium
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB49rbKHSPDDvNYENJ24Mnbb1nTFoEhmVwjweT8FxZ7ofg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB49rbKHSPDDvNYENJ24Mnbb1nTFoEhmVwjweT8FxZ7ofg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv0vEPrMX_5PTTHgxNzkMrKMQQLW=fsF1Yo8mKvqtMT6-A@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Aug 17 Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> wrote:

> there are no thorium power reactors


Today that is true but if this was before1969 it would not be.

> in spite of places like India having a lot of it and needed energy badly.
>  Why?
>

That's the only substantial criticism I get, if it's such a great idea why
aren't we doing it?  I could ask you the same thing about power satellites.


> > I think the chances of mining thorium on the Moon or Mars is close to
> zero.  If we had that kind of space presence, power sats would be the
> obvious choice.
>

One pound of Thorium equals 3 million pounds of coal, so it all depends on
if mining Thorium on the moon is more than 3 million times as difficult as
mining coal on the earth. But of course there is no need to go to the moon,
there is plenty of Thorium right here.


> > By taking the known and projected reserves and figuring in using thorium
> to make synthetic fuels (unless you want to give up jet travel) and world
> wide energy growth rates, the thorium doesn't last as long as a century.


As I pointed out in my last post it would only take 2000 tons of Thorium to
equal the energy in 6 billion tons of coal that the world uses each year.
There is 120 TRILLION tons of Thorium in the earth's crust and if the world
needs 10 times as much energy as we get from just coal then we will run out
of Thorium in the crust of this planet in 6 billion years, and we will run
out of sunlight for your power satellites long before then. Keith, maybe
there are problems in a Thorium based economy but lack of that element is
not one of them.

> Going from none to 30,000 one GW thorium burners is as much of a boggle
> factor going from none to 30 TW
> of power sats.


A Thorium reactor has produced 7.4 megawatts of power for several years,
and it used technology that was over 40 years old; but even with today's
technology a power satellite has not managed to produced one watt for one
second.

  John K Clark
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From spike66 at att.net  Fri Aug 17 20:36:50 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2012 13:36:50 -0700
Subject: [ExI] cost of SBSP and thorium
In-Reply-To: <20120817162521.GR12615@leitl.org>
References: <CAPiwVB49rbKHSPDDvNYENJ24Mnbb1nTFoEhmVwjweT8FxZ7ofg@mail.gmail.com>
 <009401cd7c8e$fe4e0a60$faea1f20$@att.net> <20120817162521.GR12615@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <006f01cd7cb8$083b40a0$18b1c1e0$@att.net>


>... On Behalf Of Eugen Leitl
Subject: Re: [ExI] cost of SBSP and thorium

On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 08:43:04AM -0700, spike wrote:

> >...Another example is that the cost of delivering a single gram to LEO 
> isn't all that much lower than the cost of delivering 100 kg, if you 
> are needing specific orbit parameters...

>...You've got microsats and nanosats, down to cubesats which take a ride on
a sat bus.
_______________________________________________

I need to clarify that.  If you don't have someone else's rocket to ride in,
where the someone else is paying most of the cost for their big payload, and
you must pay for the control systems and everything needed to place a
payload into a specific orbit with a specific angular momentum, the cost
stops scaling down after a certain point.  You have certain required
tolerances to compensate for uncertainties in engine performance, weather
conditions, all the real-world stuff.  That makes for a smallest practical
payload capability, and it is nowhere near one gram.

Of course if you can buy a 1 kg box on someone else's rocket and deploy 100
one-gram payloads out of it, that might be a good way to go.

spike



From msd001 at gmail.com  Fri Aug 17 22:28:33 2012
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2012 18:28:33 -0400
Subject: [ExI] magnet toys
In-Reply-To: <20120817155142.GO12615@leitl.org>
References: <00b201cd7bf3$b0436a90$10ca3fb0$@att.net>
 <502D7D2D.2030009@aleph.se>
 <CAL_armiTdqYhR42x_TSQecxFR5CUT_ncnuy8M0SOsCXPGH=aZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120817155142.GO12615@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <CAOJFdbLaBGozvLsEyDc=Ht9OQ4gNerA4vJQXF8Zt8oA41sspaA@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 11:51 AM, Eugen Leitl <eugen at leitl.org> wrote:
> Don't forget to ban swimming pools.

let's just ban the children.

no wait, they don't know any better.

let's just ban the parents.

oh right... nevermind.


From spike66 at att.net  Sat Aug 18 00:24:15 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2012 17:24:15 -0700
Subject: [ExI] self driving cars again
Message-ID: <000901cd7cd7$ccb59ec0$6620dc40$@att.net>

A few weeks ago we were talking about guys racing up and down Pike's Peak in
Colorado.  Can you imagine these two yahoos survived this horrific crash
without even serious injuries?  How the heck do they do that?

 

http://www.cnn.com/video/?hpt=hp_c2#/video/showbiz/2012/08/16/celebrities-sa
y-what.cnn

 

I can easily imagine that robo-cars will be great for this race, because
they can afford to take the kinds of risks that humans seldom survive.

 

spike

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From natasha at natasha.cc  Sat Aug 18 17:47:18 2012
From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More)
Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2012 10:47:18 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Inflatable helmet
Message-ID: <00a001cd7d69$8354e730$89feb590$@natasha.cc>

This idea is a fine example of how design can be used as a preventative
measure and a fashionable design for protecting our most valuable asset.

 

http://whatsnext.blogs.cnn.com/2012/08/17/meet-the-inflatable-invisible-bike
-helmet/

 

 

 <http://www.natasha.cc/> Natasha Vita-More, PhD


Producer/Host: H+TV

Description: esDESiGN__1

Chairman,  <http://www.humanityplus.org/> Humanity+



Editor, The Transhumanist Reader: Classical and ContemporaryEssays on the
Science, 
Technology and Philosophy of the Human Future

 

"The things one feels absolutely certain about are never true.  Oscar Wilde
(But is this true then?)

 

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From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Sat Aug 18 19:18:35 2012
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2012 12:18:35 -0700
Subject: [ExI] cost of SBSP and thorium
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB7EDc+gDaX6ignvKfJENroL1GFcV1PfaV8z8fz=Tm3gKQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Aug 18, 2012 at 5:00 AM,  John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Fri, Aug 17 Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> there are no thorium power reactors
>
> Today that is true but if this was before1969 it would not be.
>
>> in spite of places like India having a lot of it and needed energy badly.
>>  Why?
>>
> That's the only substantial criticism I get, if it's such a great idea why
> aren't we doing it?  I could ask you the same thing about power satellites.

I told you why.  Until early this year nobody had an idea of how to
get the transportation down cheap enough for power satellites to make
sense economically.

snip

"The People?s Republic of China has initiated a research and
development project in thorium molten-salt breeder reactor
technology.[100] It was formally announced at the Chinese Academy of
Sciences  (CAS) annual conference in January 2011. Its ultimate target
is to investigate and develop a thorium based molten salt breeder
nuclear system in about 20 years."

*If* power sats were to be developed on the most economical schedule,
it calls for enough of them 20 years after the start to get humanity
off fossil fuels.

>> Going from none to 30,000 one GW thorium burners is as much of a boggle
>> factor going from none to 30 TW
>> of power sats.
>
> A Thorium reactor has produced 7.4 megawatts of power for several years,
> and it used technology that was over 40 years old; but even with today's
> technology a power satellite has not managed to produced one watt for one
> second.

And they never will produce one watt for one second.  If they are
built at all, they have to produce hundreds of GW or there is no
reason whatsoever to build them.

I might add that nuclear reactors, U or Th are (in my opinion) the
next best choice for supplying TWs of power to replace fossil fuel.
If you read David MacKay's book, nothing else scales into the amount
of power we need.

However, the time scale involved (which I don't understand at all)
makes them a questionably choice.  Any thoughts on why even the
Chinese think it will take 20 years?

Keith



From brentn at brentneal.me  Sat Aug 18 20:54:59 2012
From: brentn at brentneal.me (Brent Neal)
Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2012 16:54:59 -0400
Subject: [ExI] cost of SBSP and thorium
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB7EDc+gDaX6ignvKfJENroL1GFcV1PfaV8z8fz=Tm3gKQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB7EDc+gDaX6ignvKfJENroL1GFcV1PfaV8z8fz=Tm3gKQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7EB26D7A-1A08-4380-B71F-8A039C501555@brentneal.me>


On 18 Aug, 2012, at 15:18, Keith Henson wrote:

> 
> However, the time scale involved (which I don't understand at all)
> makes them a questionably choice.  Any thoughts on why even the
> Chinese think it will take 20 years?
> 
> 


This is confusing to me as well. Making fluoride salts of actinides is a well known technology. Molten salt reactors have existed, as has been pointed out here, for years. The only thing I can figure is that there are some issues with fuel handling and heat management that we were cavalier about in the 60s that need to be dealt with now. But that's not a 2-decade problem, that's a half-decade problem?

B


--
Brent Neal, Ph.D.
http://www.brentneal.me
<brentn at brentneal.me>




From sjv2006 at gmail.com  Sat Aug 18 21:34:04 2012
From: sjv2006 at gmail.com (Stephen Van Sickle)
Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2012 14:34:04 -0700
Subject: [ExI] cost of SBSP and thorium
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB49rbKHSPDDvNYENJ24Mnbb1nTFoEhmVwjweT8FxZ7ofg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB49rbKHSPDDvNYENJ24Mnbb1nTFoEhmVwjweT8FxZ7ofg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CADYziYBBrqAfjFhrkSpm6G6rTzBy_a3jC+W7P-w3p8EEK-8v_g@mail.gmail.com>

Keith wrote:

Going from none to 30,000 one GW
> thorium burners is as much of a boggle factor going from none to 30 TW
> of power sats.  Or so it seems to me.
>

I'm not so sure.  The airline industry has ~15,000 airliners in service,
with technical complexities, power densities and levels, and safety needs
comparable to those needed for power reactors. Power reactors are
physically larger, but not very mass restricted.  Global airline revenues
are ~633 billion dollars/year, the energy industry is about 5 trillion a
year.  This all suggests to me that, if reactors (or major sub assemblies)
can be built to standard designs in controlled factory conditions (as
airliners are), they are a practical energy alternative for the next few
centuries at any rate (assuming a fairly static but prosperous world)
without the need to develop any major new technologies.

The airline industry serves as an existence proof of a comparable industry
within an order of magnitude what is need.  Your approach to power sats
requires lasers, solar generators, mass to orbit, and orbital construction
at *least* three or four orders of magnitude larger than anything attempted
so far, and is not nearly as well suited to incremental investment.

Now, I personally would much prefer power sats, since it also brings with a
the ability to create a robust space-based civilization and far larger
energy generation than is possible on Earth, both things we will need if we
are to become something more than "puny humans".  It is a better solution
for the long run.  But I also think the business and technological risk is
far less for nuclear.  I'm pretty sure which risk any investor, government
or private, would prefer.

The only thing that might change this balance is the political and military
risks/benefits, or disruptive technological change (small s singularity).

--steve vs
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From clementlawyer at gmail.com  Sat Aug 18 21:51:35 2012
From: clementlawyer at gmail.com (James Clement)
Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2012 17:51:35 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Inflatable helmet
In-Reply-To: <00a001cd7d69$8354e730$89feb590$@natasha.cc>
References: <00a001cd7d69$8354e730$89feb590$@natasha.cc>
Message-ID: <CA+LBAbTGDdew9XbJYLMYQSsOmb0uV_8i3y+5TJ19gzjFeRd_BQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Aug 18, 2012 at 1:47 PM, Natasha Vita-More <natasha at natasha.cc>wrote:

> This idea is a fine example of how design can be used as a preventative
> measure and a fashionable design for protecting our most valuable asset.**
> **
>
> ** **
>
>
> http://whatsnext.blogs.cnn.com/2012/08/17/meet-the-inflatable-invisible-bike-helmet/
> ****
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> Natasha Vita-More, PhD <http://www.natasha.cc/>
>



> ****
>
> I thought it looked pretty ridiculous until I read that it was really an
> airbag. I agree this is an interesting design concept and I hope others
> pick up on it and can make it even smaller and more protective!  Thanks for
> sharing this!
>
> James
>
>
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From eugen at leitl.org  Sun Aug 19 09:17:43 2012
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2012 11:17:43 +0200
Subject: [ExI] cost of SBSP and thorium
In-Reply-To: <7EB26D7A-1A08-4380-B71F-8A039C501555@brentneal.me>
References: <CAPiwVB7EDc+gDaX6ignvKfJENroL1GFcV1PfaV8z8fz=Tm3gKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <7EB26D7A-1A08-4380-B71F-8A039C501555@brentneal.me>
Message-ID: <20120819091743.GK12615@leitl.org>

On Sat, Aug 18, 2012 at 04:54:59PM -0400, Brent Neal wrote:
> 
> On 18 Aug, 2012, at 15:18, Keith Henson wrote:
> 
> > 
> > However, the time scale involved (which I don't understand at all)
> > makes them a questionably choice.  Any thoughts on why even the
> > Chinese think it will take 20 years?
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> This is confusing to me as well. Making fluoride salts of actinides is a well known technology. Molten salt reactors have existed, as has been pointed out here, for years. The only thing I can figure is that there are some issues with fuel handling and heat management that we were cavalier about in the 60s that need to be dealt with now. But that's not a 2-decade problem, that's a half-decade problem?

Are you fucking kidding me? Why do I bother to post facts when
you all seem to prefer to exist in a make-believe universe?
 
> B
> 
> 
> --
> Brent Neal, Ph.D.
> http://www.brentneal.me
> <brentn at brentneal.me>
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
-- 
Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE


From anders at aleph.se  Sun Aug 19 08:44:39 2012
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2012 10:44:39 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Inflatable helmet
In-Reply-To: <00a001cd7d69$8354e730$89feb590$@natasha.cc>
References: <00a001cd7d69$8354e730$89feb590$@natasha.cc>
Message-ID: <5030A777.6070804@aleph.se>

Ideally all our clothes would be smart like that. Detecting an impact 
(either using accelerometers or short-range radar) it calculates an 
optimal configuration of expanding airbags. Although getting the bugs 
out the system might be tough - you don't want them to fire off in the 
wrong situation, due to hackers or impeding your movement in a crisis.

Another fun possibility is of course to make the clothes actuators on 
their own. I played around a bit with this small idea for a roleplaying 
game, making use of a concept art picture I came across to envisionm a 
jelly spacesuit/exoskeleton:
http://eclipsephase.com/comment/29051#comment-29051

-- 
Anders Sandberg
Future of Humanity Institute
Oxford University


From johnkclark at gmail.com  Sun Aug 19 15:14:52 2012
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2012 11:14:52 -0400
Subject: [ExI] cost of SBSP and thorium
In-Reply-To: <20120819091743.GK12615@leitl.org>
References: <CAPiwVB7EDc+gDaX6ignvKfJENroL1GFcV1PfaV8z8fz=Tm3gKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <7EB26D7A-1A08-4380-B71F-8A039C501555@brentneal.me>
 <20120819091743.GK12615@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv214y-hQGuOTJSbr6T9RG4j9pN1J0EyP_SW3ipUOeCaSg@mail.gmail.com>

 Brent Neal wrote:

>
> > This is confusing to me as well. Making fluoride salts of actinides is a
> well known technology. Molten salt reactors have existed, as has been
> pointed out here, for years.
>

Eugen Leitl <eugen at leitl.org> wrote


> > Are you fucking kidding me? Why do I bother to post facts when you all
> seem to prefer to exist in a make-believe universe?
>

Eugen, this is confusing to me as well. What facts about fluoride salts of
actinides or any other aspect of the universe have you posted that we are
ignoring? Actually I can't seem to remember you posting more than about 3
sentences on this subject and the meaning of the 3 sentences always boils
down to the same thing, it won't work but I'm not going to tell you why. In
fact in one exchange you specifically said "I will not discuss this with
you because of massive amounts of above BULLSHIT. Life's too short." This
illustrates the reason that nuclear power technology in general and Thorium
reactor technology in particular has not advanced in 40 years, most people
just have a irrational and primordial dislike of nuclear power, all forms
of nuclear power. The problem is that preferences based on superstition
will not save the world from energy starvation, only cool logic can do that.

  John K Clark
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From pharos at gmail.com  Sun Aug 19 15:54:11 2012
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2012 16:54:11 +0100
Subject: [ExI] cost of SBSP and thorium
In-Reply-To: <7EB26D7A-1A08-4380-B71F-8A039C501555@brentneal.me>
References: <CAPiwVB7EDc+gDaX6ignvKfJENroL1GFcV1PfaV8z8fz=Tm3gKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <7EB26D7A-1A08-4380-B71F-8A039C501555@brentneal.me>
Message-ID: <CAL_armiNs1QfPvTyLu6_WB14ww37kJnkxSfRjt1UZ2gX+b7F6A@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Aug 18, 2012 at 9:54 PM, Brent Neal wrote:
> This is confusing to me as well. Making fluoride salts of actinides is a well known technology.
> Molten salt reactors have existed, as has been pointed out here, for years. The only thing I can
> figure is that there are some issues with fuel handling and heat management that we were
> cavalier about in the 60s that need to be dealt with now. But that's not a 2-decade problem,
> that's a half-decade problem?
>
>

LFTRs are different in almost every way to existing reactors. There is
a difference between building a small test reactor and building a full
size production reactor. To build a standard nuclear power station
takes 5 to 10 years *after* all the haggling over sites and permits,
planning, design, etc.

For a list of LFTR design problems, see:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_fluoride_thorium_reactor#Design_challenges>

It is no use hand-waving and saying that the Oak Ridge test has
already solved these problems. The Chinese and other researchers won't
believe you. They will have to build their own test plant first.

So, allow 10 years for a test build and problem solving. Then a few
years for designing a full-size power station and getting quotes for
the actual build. Then 5 to 10 years for a production build.

It could easily take 20 years.


BillK



From johnkclark at gmail.com  Sun Aug 19 15:58:51 2012
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2012 11:58:51 -0400
Subject: [ExI] cost of SBSP and thorium
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB7EDc+gDaX6ignvKfJENroL1GFcV1PfaV8z8fz=Tm3gKQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB7EDc+gDaX6ignvKfJENroL1GFcV1PfaV8z8fz=Tm3gKQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv3DJWhduzJt1_6ygOcF89Hc2BQT0HKzxhx6AVhmQd5e2A@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Aug 18, 2012  Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> wrote:

> Until early this year nobody had an idea of how to get the transportation
> down cheap enough for power satellites to make sense economically.
>

I'm delighted that the long sought goal of getting into space cheaply has
been found at last and eagerly await you actually launching something,
being so cheap I don't expect I will need to wait long.

> > A Thorium reactor has produced 7.4 megawatts of power for several
>> years, and it used technology that was over 40 years old; but even with
>> today's technology a power satellite has not managed to produced one watt
>> for one second.
>>
>
> > And they never will produce one watt for one second.  If they are built
> at all, they have to produce hundreds of GW or there is no reason
> whatsoever to build them.
>

And that's another major disadvantage of power satellites. Huge engineering
projects NEVER go according to plan so you need to start small to work out
the kinks, the difference is that a small demonstration power satellite
would cost on the order of a trillion dollars while a demonstration small
LTFR would cost less than one tenth of one percent of that. I know you will
say I've overestimated the cost because there is a new way to get into
space that is very very cheap, well prove it by launching something,
anything.

> Any thoughts on why even the Chinese think it will take 20 years?
>

Your quotation, if not taken out of context, seems to indicate that we
should wait 20 years before we even start to investigate Thorium, I don't
believe the Chinese are that stupid. And I'd be delighted if it only took
20 years to switch over to a Thorium based economy, but I think it will
probably take longer, and if the irrational prejudices of the last 40 years
continue it will never happen and the environmentalists will get their way
and we'll do the moral thing, freeze to death in the dark.

  John K Clark
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Sun Aug 19 16:19:58 2012
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2012 12:19:58 -0400
Subject: [ExI] cost of SBSP and thorium
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armiNs1QfPvTyLu6_WB14ww37kJnkxSfRjt1UZ2gX+b7F6A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB7EDc+gDaX6ignvKfJENroL1GFcV1PfaV8z8fz=Tm3gKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <7EB26D7A-1A08-4380-B71F-8A039C501555@brentneal.me>
 <CAL_armiNs1QfPvTyLu6_WB14ww37kJnkxSfRjt1UZ2gX+b7F6A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv3VovsKaohaG0FqJ1H8JDmd4V0vq9XadtqaXPorhmyUxg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 11:54 AM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:

> LFTRs are different in almost every way to existing reactors.
>

I know, that's what makes them so appealing technologically and so
unappealing politically. In most places being in favor of nuclear power
would be political suicide, being in favor of a reactor that was different
in almost every way would be suicide squared.

> There is a difference between building a small test reactor and building
> a full size production reactor.


Absolutely.

> To build a standard nuclear power station takes 5 to 10 years *after* all
> the haggling over sites and permits,
> planning, design, etc.
>

Environmentalists are far better than that at dreaming up roadblocks !! In
the USA no utility has started building a new reactor for 40 years, not
even one of conventional design.

> So, allow 10 years for a test build and problem solving. Then a few years
> for designing a full-size power station and getting quotes for the actual
> build. Then 5 to 10 years for a production build. It could easily take 20
> years.
>

Considering the political realities that is a very optimistic scenario, I
hope you're right.

  John K Clark
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From brentn at brentneal.me  Sun Aug 19 16:13:37 2012
From: brentn at brentneal.me (Brent Neal)
Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2012 12:13:37 -0400
Subject: [ExI] cost of SBSP and thorium
In-Reply-To: <20120819091743.GK12615@leitl.org>
References: <CAPiwVB7EDc+gDaX6ignvKfJENroL1GFcV1PfaV8z8fz=Tm3gKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <7EB26D7A-1A08-4380-B71F-8A039C501555@brentneal.me>
 <20120819091743.GK12615@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <AB17C37F-6DA6-40C9-9135-E6DDCC73713B@brentneal.me>


On 19 Aug, 2012, at 5:17, Eugen Leitl wrote:

> On Sat, Aug 18, 2012 at 04:54:59PM -0400, Brent Neal wrote:
>> 
>> On 18 Aug, 2012, at 15:18, Keith Henson wrote:
>> 
>>> 
>>> However, the time scale involved (which I don't understand at all)
>>> makes them a questionably choice.  Any thoughts on why even the
>>> Chinese think it will take 20 years?
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> This is confusing to me as well. Making fluoride salts of actinides is a well known technology. Molten salt reactors have existed, as has been pointed out here, for years. The only thing I can figure is that there are some issues with fuel handling and heat management that we were cavalier about in the 60s that need to be dealt with now. But that's not a 2-decade problem, that's a half-decade problem?
> 
> Are you fucking kidding me? Why do I bother to post facts when
> you all seem to prefer to exist in a make-believe universe?
>> 

Eugen  -

Being cranky with us will not change the actual facts:

Overview of fluoride salt reactors: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_fluoride_thorium_reactor
You make the fluoride salts with HF, of course: http://science.howstuffworks.com/uranium-centrifuge.htm
Also more overview on the manufacture of fluoride salts here: http://www.exportcontrols.org/centrifuges.html
And a representative scholarly article here (from 1967, just to pin a date down): http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/ac60252a030

More on molten salt reactors - a presentation from Oak Ridge: http://www.ornl.gov/~webworks/cppr/y2001/pres/120507.pdf
And a reference from the journal Nuclear Applied  Technology in 1970: http://www.osti.gov/energycitations/product.biblio.jsp?osti_id=4727102

Digging into the Oak Ridge literature leads me to believe that heat management is the problem they're trying to solve now. The 1960s era Oak Ridge MSR used graphite as insulation. We understand now that this is a poor materials choice. 

The point is that thorium salt based liquid fuel reactors appear to have a very good chance of producing relatively safe, low-byproduct heat which can be used to turn a turbine and make electricity. The main reason they don't appear to have been used thus far is because they don't produce a lot of long-lived fissionables that can be used to make bombs. The military-industrial complex would not have had a lot of use for this in the 60s and 70s.

B

 




--
Brent Neal, Ph.D.
http://www.brentneal.me
<brentn at brentneal.me>




From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Sun Aug 19 16:53:51 2012
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2012 09:53:51 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Further ranting on power sat
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB5-gMkahkpwoSS6AmEJVcjXk8U2kLM1Xh101yUchEUpPw@mail.gmail.com>

http://www.linkedin.com/groups/Lesson-learnt-from-40-years-1501557.S.109960984?view=&gid=1501557&type=member&item=109960984&report.success=v9F1yUF_EhbSLiA9P0gBV2o8WgZ0Nf3cccvEI9_MquN0af_PSq6EOsM7ctJRx9bFcLpJdjpMmCtNNFD-LWRYvl5iqj0eBFWForTC9t_Mo9N0ajQqncu0Gz6DmkENNFWcPoW09y6DqfGUhJfccqrJfs6_WfhUNGQP1LpR9us_o2mhafO11rsaOOusWCFgaCp11B8RPFxbN0a

Jorgen Anders seems to think solar energy is one of the few solutions.
 I agree.  The problem is that solar energy, due to clouds and the
Earth being in the way much of the time, is even more expensive than
nuclear energy.

There may be a way to get the cost down, but it involves taking the
solar energy collectors into geosynchronous orbit.  Straightforward
analysis states that the cost to lift parts to GEO has to get down to
$100/kg for power to be delivered at 2 cent a kWh.  (That's low enough
to make synthetic transport fuel for ~$1 per gallon, desalt and pump
water 1000 km inland, recycle everything, etc.)

Laser thermal propulsion at 500,000 tons per year will get the cost
down that far where the problems of chemical propulsion make it
unlikely that $100/kg can be done at any traffic rate.

It's a very large project, and perhaps not the best way to solve the
energy/carbon problem, but there seems to be at least one way to get
out of the problems we have with a limited planet.

The fact that this can be considered at all is a "Black Swan" event of
electronics intruding into space transportation, gigawatt propulsion
lasers having roots in the tiny laser diodes used in CD players.

The previous iteration of the concept is here
http://www.theoildrum.com/node/7898



From spike66 at att.net  Sun Aug 19 16:41:15 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2012 09:41:15 -0700
Subject: [ExI] pussy riot case
Message-ID: <001e01cd7e29$741785f0$5c4691d0$@att.net>

Are any of you following the Pussy Riot trial?  I would never have heard a
word of it except that Gary Kasparov was arrested and roughed up yesterday
while standing around outside the court.

 

http://en.rian.ru/russia/20120817/175282580.html

 

It was remarkable that the first line of the story reports as fact that
Kasparov bit a police officer.  Kasparov says this isn't what happened, and
I don't trust the word of the commie police.  

 

This Pussy Riot case worries me.  Suggestions please on how to stand in
solidarity with the Pussy Rioters?

 

spike

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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Sun Aug 19 17:35:24 2012
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2012 13:35:24 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Further ranting on power sat
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB5-gMkahkpwoSS6AmEJVcjXk8U2kLM1Xh101yUchEUpPw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB5-gMkahkpwoSS6AmEJVcjXk8U2kLM1Xh101yUchEUpPw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv3d9BiK9DQ9i0OeKuivkpNy5DRYc8gpUTRM3y4wEeWcnA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 12:53 PM, Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com>wrote:

> Straightforward analysis states that the cost to lift parts to GEO has to
> get down to $100/kg for power to be delivered at 2 cent a kWh.


Straightforward? Forget launch costs, I would be very interested in seeing
somebody build on the ground a photovoltaic or heat engine solar plant that
converts sunlight to electricity, converts the electricity to microwaves,
transmits the microwaves for one mile (not 23,000), then reconverts the
microwaves back to electricity that can be sold profitably at 2 cent a kWh.
I'm far from sure that power satellites would work economically even if you
could get them into geosynchronous orbit free with the snap of your fingers.

  John K Clark
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From anders at aleph.se  Sun Aug 19 17:58:21 2012
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2012 19:58:21 +0200
Subject: [ExI] pussy riot case
In-Reply-To: <001e01cd7e29$741785f0$5c4691d0$@att.net>
References: <001e01cd7e29$741785f0$5c4691d0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <5031293D.5050600@aleph.se>

On 19/08/2012 18:41, spike wrote:
>
> Are any of you following the Pussy Riot trial?
>

Been keeping an eye on it. Not unexpected, sad, and a sign of just how 
dark Russia has turned. Plus that Putin clearly has a problem dealing 
with extrovert artist dissidents: he doesn't know how to handle people 
who pander to the world press well. Then again, few groups know how to 
do it.


> This Pussy Riot case worries me.  Suggestions please on how to stand 
> in solidarity with the Pussy Rioters?
>

Stating "we are all pussies now"?

-- 
Anders Sandberg,
Future of Humanity Institute
Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University

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From charlie.stross at gmail.com  Sun Aug 19 17:06:34 2012
From: charlie.stross at gmail.com (Charlie Stross)
Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2012 18:06:34 +0100
Subject: [ExI] pussy riot case
In-Reply-To: <001e01cd7e29$741785f0$5c4691d0$@att.net>
References: <001e01cd7e29$741785f0$5c4691d0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <52EF66A8-92DD-45F8-B752-7429F96B2DB0@gmail.com>


On 19 Aug 2012, at 17:41, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

> Are any of you following the Pussy Riot trial?

Are you joking? It's been one of the top three foreign news items in the UK for days (along with the SA police massacre of striking mine workers, and Julian Assange continuing to be a narcissistic dick) ...


-- Charlie




From eugen at leitl.org  Sun Aug 19 18:17:31 2012
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2012 20:17:31 +0200
Subject: [ExI] cost of SBSP and thorium
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv214y-hQGuOTJSbr6T9RG4j9pN1J0EyP_SW3ipUOeCaSg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB7EDc+gDaX6ignvKfJENroL1GFcV1PfaV8z8fz=Tm3gKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <7EB26D7A-1A08-4380-B71F-8A039C501555@brentneal.me>
 <20120819091743.GK12615@leitl.org>
 <CAJPayv214y-hQGuOTJSbr6T9RG4j9pN1J0EyP_SW3ipUOeCaSg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120819181731.GO12615@leitl.org>

On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 11:14:52AM -0400, John Clark wrote:
>  Brent Neal wrote:
> 
> >
> > > This is confusing to me as well. Making fluoride salts of actinides is a
> > well known technology. Molten salt reactors have existed, as has been
> > pointed out here, for years.
> >
> 
> Eugen Leitl <eugen at leitl.org> wrote
> 
> 
> > > Are you fucking kidding me? Why do I bother to post facts when you all
> > seem to prefer to exist in a make-believe universe?
> >
> 
> Eugen, this is confusing to me as well. What facts about fluoride salts of

John, you're a very poor troll.

> actinides or any other aspect of the universe have you posted that we are

That alternative fuelcycle breeders have not been validated in practice,
so stop talking about unicorn power as if it was real. 

> ignoring? Actually I can't seem to remember you posting more than about 3

Go schedule an appointment with your physician. Your memory is appalingly
short.

> sentences on this subject and the meaning of the 3 sentences always boils
> down to the same thing, it won't work but I'm not going to tell you why. In

Why are you lying, John?

> fact in one exchange you specifically said "I will not discuss this with
> you because of massive amounts of above BULLSHIT. Life's too short." This
> illustrates the reason that nuclear power technology in general and Thorium
> reactor technology in particular has not advanced in 40 years, most people
> just have a irrational and primordial dislike of nuclear power, all forms
> of nuclear power. The problem is that preferences based on superstition
> will not save the world from energy starvation, only cool logic can do that.

You're derailing the debate. Again. Why are you doing that, John?

 
>   John K Clark

> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

-- 
Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE


From charlie.stross at gmail.com  Sun Aug 19 18:17:25 2012
From: charlie.stross at gmail.com (Charlie Stross)
Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2012 19:17:25 +0100
Subject: [ExI] pussy riot case
In-Reply-To: <5031293D.5050600@aleph.se>
References: <001e01cd7e29$741785f0$5c4691d0$@att.net>
 <5031293D.5050600@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <CB55750C-7884-4B50-A8B5-3E3CC72AB683@gmail.com>


On 19 Aug 2012, at 18:58, Anders Sandberg <anders at aleph.se> wrote:

> On 19/08/2012 18:41, spike wrote:
>> Are any of you following the Pussy Riot trial? 
> 
> Been keeping an eye on it. Not unexpected, sad, and a sign of just how dark Russia has turned. Plus that Putin clearly has a problem dealing with extrovert artist dissidents: he doesn't know how to handle people who pander to the world press well. Then again, few groups know how to do it. 

More profoundly; Putin's team *really* don't get the post-TV internet weltanschaung, leaderless resistance, stuff like Anonymous and Occupy, etc.

Which in turn implies a return to an autocratic system with no safety valve to allow peaceful transfer of power when the regime overruns its popular legitimacy, which in turn implies ... nothing good, in the long run.


-- Charlie


From eugen at leitl.org  Sun Aug 19 18:24:44 2012
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2012 20:24:44 +0200
Subject: [ExI] cost of SBSP and thorium
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armiNs1QfPvTyLu6_WB14ww37kJnkxSfRjt1UZ2gX+b7F6A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB7EDc+gDaX6ignvKfJENroL1GFcV1PfaV8z8fz=Tm3gKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <7EB26D7A-1A08-4380-B71F-8A039C501555@brentneal.me>
 <CAL_armiNs1QfPvTyLu6_WB14ww37kJnkxSfRjt1UZ2gX+b7F6A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120819182444.GP12615@leitl.org>

On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 04:54:11PM +0100, BillK wrote:
> On Sat, Aug 18, 2012 at 9:54 PM, Brent Neal wrote:
> > This is confusing to me as well. Making fluoride salts of actinides is a well known technology.
> > Molten salt reactors have existed, as has been pointed out here, for years. The only thing I can
> > figure is that there are some issues with fuel handling and heat management that we were
> > cavalier about in the 60s that need to be dealt with now. But that's not a 2-decade problem,
> > that's a half-decade problem?
> >
> >
> 
> LFTRs are different in almost every way to existing reactors. There is
> a difference between building a small test reactor and building a full

Thorium is not fissible, but fertile. A thorium MSR must be kickstarted
with fissibles, and have sufficient breeding factor. This has never been
tested.

In order to validate all aspects of a new design you need to observe a commercial-scale
pilot for a decade. Before you cannot make any claims about
that particular design nevermind an envelope of designs.

This is elementary. Failure to realize this demonstrates you have no
business opening your mouth on things nuclear. Because you have got no
clue. 

> size production reactor. To build a standard nuclear power station
> takes 5 to 10 years *after* all the haggling over sites and permits,
> planning, design, etc.
> 
> For a list of LFTR design problems, see:
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_fluoride_thorium_reactor#Design_challenges>
> 
> It is no use hand-waving and saying that the Oak Ridge test has
> already solved these problems. The Chinese and other researchers won't
> believe you. They will have to build their own test plant first.
> 
> So, allow 10 years for a test build and problem solving. Then a few
> years for designing a full-size power station and getting quotes for
> the actual build. Then 5 to 10 years for a production build.
> 
> It could easily take 20 years.

In 20 years, the demand gap is 20 TW. You've missed the goal
by 20000 new reactors. You're too late. Buh-bye.

Oh, and where do you think the ~40 kT of U-233 is coming from?



From eugen at leitl.org  Sun Aug 19 18:36:33 2012
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2012 20:36:33 +0200
Subject: [ExI] cost of SBSP and thorium
In-Reply-To: <AB17C37F-6DA6-40C9-9135-E6DDCC73713B@brentneal.me>
References: <CAPiwVB7EDc+gDaX6ignvKfJENroL1GFcV1PfaV8z8fz=Tm3gKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <7EB26D7A-1A08-4380-B71F-8A039C501555@brentneal.me>
 <20120819091743.GK12615@leitl.org>
 <AB17C37F-6DA6-40C9-9135-E6DDCC73713B@brentneal.me>
Message-ID: <20120819183633.GT12615@leitl.org>

On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 12:13:37PM -0400, Brent Neal wrote:
> 
> On 19 Aug, 2012, at 5:17, Eugen Leitl wrote:
> 
> > On Sat, Aug 18, 2012 at 04:54:59PM -0400, Brent Neal wrote:
> >> 
> >> On 18 Aug, 2012, at 15:18, Keith Henson wrote:
> >> 
> >>> 
> >>> However, the time scale involved (which I don't understand at all)
> >>> makes them a questionably choice.  Any thoughts on why even the
> >>> Chinese think it will take 20 years?
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> This is confusing to me as well. Making fluoride salts of actinides is a well known technology. Molten salt reactors have existed, as has been pointed out here, for years. The only thing I can figure is that there are some issues with fuel handling and heat management that we were cavalier about in the 60s that need to be dealt with now. But that's not a 2-decade problem, that's a half-decade problem?
> > 
> > Are you fucking kidding me? Why do I bother to post facts when
> > you all seem to prefer to exist in a make-believe universe?
> >> 
> 
> Eugen  -
> 
> Being cranky with us will not change the actual facts:
> 
> Overview of fluoride salt reactors: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_fluoride_thorium_reactor
> You make the fluoride salts with HF, of course: http://science.howstuffworks.com/uranium-centrifuge.htm
> Also more overview on the manufacture of fluoride salts here: http://www.exportcontrols.org/centrifuges.html
> And a representative scholarly article here (from 1967, just to pin a date down): http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/ac60252a030

Entirely irrelevant to the problem. 
 
> More on molten salt reactors - a presentation from Oak Ridge: http://www.ornl.gov/~webworks/cppr/y2001/pres/120507.pdf

Alternative fuel cycle breeders don't exist. Figuring out whether
they can will take you at least 20 years. We do not have 20 years.

You will not be able to scale TW/year substition rate in any case.
This does not address synfuels and synthons, nor food.

> And a reference from the journal Nuclear Applied  Technology in 1970: http://www.osti.gov/energycitations/product.biblio.jsp?osti_id=4727102
> 
> Digging into the Oak Ridge literature leads me to believe that heat management is the problem they're trying to solve now. The 1960s era Oak Ridge MSR used graphite as insulation. We understand now that this is a poor materials choice. 
> 
> The point is that thorium salt based liquid fuel reactors appear to have a very good chance of producing relatively safe, low-byproduct heat which can be used to turn a turbine and make electricity. The main reason they don't appear to have been used thus far is because they don't produce a lot of long-lived fissionables that can be used to make bombs. The military-industrial complex would not have had a lot of use for this in the 60s and 70s.

Complete bullshit. Thorium fuelcycle systems have been investigated in many
countries and all of the pilots have been shut down (the latest in late 1980s).

The dolchstosslegende of thorium fuel cycle being unsuitable for
nuclear weapons is also bullshit, both because the projects were
civilian, and because U-233 happens to be as suitable for making
weapons like U-239. So you're doubly wrong here.

And this demonstrates, again, that it is useless to debate thorium
polyannas on the Internet. 

So I'll be back to enjoying my vacation, and my shitty 3G connection
which happens to work today.
 
> B
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --
> Brent Neal, Ph.D.
> http://www.brentneal.me
> <brentn at brentneal.me>
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
-- 
Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE


From eugen at leitl.org  Sun Aug 19 18:38:15 2012
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2012 20:38:15 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Further ranting on power sat
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB5-gMkahkpwoSS6AmEJVcjXk8U2kLM1Xh101yUchEUpPw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB5-gMkahkpwoSS6AmEJVcjXk8U2kLM1Xh101yUchEUpPw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120819183815.GU12615@leitl.org>

On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 09:53:51AM -0700, Keith Henson wrote:
> http://www.linkedin.com/groups/Lesson-learnt-from-40-years-1501557.S.109960984?view=&gid=1501557&type=member&item=109960984&report.success=v9F1yUF_EhbSLiA9P0gBV2o8WgZ0Nf3cccvEI9_MquN0af_PSq6EOsM7ctJRx9bFcLpJdjpMmCtNNFD-LWRYvl5iqj0eBFWForTC9t_Mo9N0ajQqncu0Gz6DmkENNFWcPoW09y6DqfGUhJfccqrJfs6_WfhUNGQP1LpR9us_o2mhafO11rsaOOusWCFgaCp11B8RPFxbN0a
> 
> Jorgen Anders seems to think solar energy is one of the few solutions.
>  I agree.  The problem is that solar energy, due to clouds and the
> Earth being in the way much of the time, is even more expensive than
> nuclear energy.

Sorry, this is incorrect. New solar is cheaper than new
nuclear

https://encrypted.google.com/search?q=solar+cheaper+than+new+nuclear&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=ubuntu&channel=fs
 
> There may be a way to get the cost down, but it involves taking the
> solar energy collectors into geosynchronous orbit.  Straightforward
> analysis states that the cost to lift parts to GEO has to get down to
> $100/kg for power to be delivered at 2 cent a kWh.  (That's low enough
> to make synthetic transport fuel for ~$1 per gallon, desalt and pump
> water 1000 km inland, recycle everything, etc.)
> 
> Laser thermal propulsion at 500,000 tons per year will get the cost
> down that far where the problems of chemical propulsion make it
> unlikely that $100/kg can be done at any traffic rate.
> 
> It's a very large project, and perhaps not the best way to solve the
> energy/carbon problem, but there seems to be at least one way to get
> out of the problems we have with a limited planet.
> 
> The fact that this can be considered at all is a "Black Swan" event of
> electronics intruding into space transportation, gigawatt propulsion
> lasers having roots in the tiny laser diodes used in CD players.
> 
> The previous iteration of the concept is here
> http://www.theoildrum.com/node/7898
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
-- 
Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE


From spike66 at att.net  Sun Aug 19 18:25:54 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2012 11:25:54 -0700
Subject: [ExI] pussy riot case
In-Reply-To: <52EF66A8-92DD-45F8-B752-7429F96B2DB0@gmail.com>
References: <001e01cd7e29$741785f0$5c4691d0$@att.net>
 <52EF66A8-92DD-45F8-B752-7429F96B2DB0@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <006c01cd7e38$123e17e0$36ba47a0$@att.net>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Charlie Stross
Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2012 10:07 AM
To: ExI chat list
Subject: Re: [ExI] pussy riot case


>...We are all pussies now... Anders

Ja, or We are all Rioters now might work too.  {8-]


On 19 Aug 2012, at 17:41, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

>>... Are any of you following the Pussy Riot trial?

>...Are you joking? It's been one of the top three foreign news items in the
UK for days...

Oy.  Barely a news footnote in the states.  I heard about it because it was
on a chess site, and only then because Kasparov had tangled with the
commies.

>...(along with the SA police massacre of striking mine workers...

This is the first I have heard of it.

>... and Julian Assange continuing to be a narcissistic dick) ...-- Charlie
_______________________________________________

That isn't news, but the legal handling of his case interests me.  It is
clear enough that the charges against him are trumped up, and they really
want him for his actions on transparency.  I have mixed feelings, but I am
more with him than against him.  Regarding narcissistic, his personality
isn't a concern to me.  I vaguely recall his being an occasional poster on
ExI back in the old days, didn't play well with the other kids if memory
serves correctly.

spike



From eugen at leitl.org  Sun Aug 19 18:45:05 2012
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2012 20:45:05 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Further ranting on power sat
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv3d9BiK9DQ9i0OeKuivkpNy5DRYc8gpUTRM3y4wEeWcnA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB5-gMkahkpwoSS6AmEJVcjXk8U2kLM1Xh101yUchEUpPw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv3d9BiK9DQ9i0OeKuivkpNy5DRYc8gpUTRM3y4wEeWcnA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120819184505.GW12615@leitl.org>

On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 01:35:24PM -0400, John Clark wrote:
> On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 12:53 PM, Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com>wrote:
> 
> > Straightforward analysis states that the cost to lift parts to GEO has to
> > get down to $100/kg for power to be delivered at 2 cent a kWh.
> 
> 
> Straightforward? Forget launch costs, I would be very interested in seeing
> somebody build on the ground a photovoltaic or heat engine solar plant that
> converts sunlight to electricity, converts the electricity to microwaves,
> transmits the microwaves for one mile (not 23,000), then reconverts the
> microwaves back to electricity that can be sold profitably at 2 cent a kWh.

Power costs 50-60 EUR/MWh.

> I'm far from sure that power satellites would work economically even if you
> could get them into geosynchronous orbit free with the snap of your fingers.
> 
>   John K Clark

> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

-- 
Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE


From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Sun Aug 19 17:49:56 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2012 19:49:56 +0200
Subject: [ExI] pussy riot case
In-Reply-To: <001e01cd7e29$741785f0$5c4691d0$@att.net>
References: <001e01cd7e29$741785f0$5c4691d0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a7=JAe8au6UrxQBid_-5SF-T5G-PKrsk8WCCF+1DsHjUA@mail.gmail.com>

On 19 August 2012 18:41, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

> This Pussy Riot case worries me.  Suggestions please on how to stand in
> solidarity with the Pussy Rioters?
>

Hey, coupla years for trespassing for the purpose of committing a felony?

What would it be like in the US, seven years according to federal
sentencing guidelines, right? :-)

As much as I may like vandalism of monotheists' ceremonies in principle, I
am too busy being concerned with Assange's predicament right now.

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From pharos at gmail.com  Sun Aug 19 19:13:46 2012
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2012 20:13:46 +0100
Subject: [ExI] cost of SBSP and thorium
In-Reply-To: <20120819183633.GT12615@leitl.org>
References: <CAPiwVB7EDc+gDaX6ignvKfJENroL1GFcV1PfaV8z8fz=Tm3gKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <7EB26D7A-1A08-4380-B71F-8A039C501555@brentneal.me>
 <20120819091743.GK12615@leitl.org>
 <AB17C37F-6DA6-40C9-9135-E6DDCC73713B@brentneal.me>
 <20120819183633.GT12615@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <CAL_armgRXx56wed-zUNbrP7JWx+69JLbkNCy9gKJQ6Wrc1Z51A@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 7:36 PM, Eugen Leitl wrote:
<snip>
> The dolchstosslegende of thorium fuel cycle being unsuitable for
> nuclear weapons is also bullshit, both because the projects were
> civilian, and because U-233 happens to be as suitable for making
> weapons like U-239. So you're doubly wrong here.
>
>

Interesting....... I understand what you are saying, but the word
'dolchstosslegende' seems unusual for the context.
In English you mean 'false story' or 'deliberately misleading story'
or 'canard'. But 'dolchstosslegende' seems to refer to the right wing
myth which helped Hitler's rise to power. Has 'dolchstosslegende'
changed into a more general, colloquial use in modern German?


BillK


From brentn at brentneal.me  Sun Aug 19 19:52:46 2012
From: brentn at brentneal.me (Brent Neal)
Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2012 15:52:46 -0400
Subject: [ExI] cost of SBSP and thorium
In-Reply-To: <20120819183633.GT12615@leitl.org>
References: <CAPiwVB7EDc+gDaX6ignvKfJENroL1GFcV1PfaV8z8fz=Tm3gKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <7EB26D7A-1A08-4380-B71F-8A039C501555@brentneal.me>
 <20120819091743.GK12615@leitl.org>
 <AB17C37F-6DA6-40C9-9135-E6DDCC73713B@brentneal.me>
 <20120819183633.GT12615@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <63562CC7-19CC-480F-AC85-6A7DE9816084@brentneal.me>


On 19 Aug, 2012, at 14:36, Eugen Leitl wrote:

> Complete bullshit. Thorium fuelcycle systems have been investigated in many
> countries and all of the pilots have been shut down (the latest in late 1980s).
> 
> The dolchstosslegende of thorium fuel cycle being unsuitable for
> nuclear weapons is also bullshit, both because the projects were
> civilian, and because U-233 happens to be as suitable for making
> weapons like U-239. So you're doubly wrong here.

I think that your knowledge of the nuclear physics here is faulty. Please go and look up the half-life of U-233.

B


--
Brent Neal, Ph.D.
http://www.brentneal.me
<brentn at brentneal.me>




From spike66 at att.net  Sun Aug 19 20:14:01 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2012 13:14:01 -0700
Subject: [ExI] pussy riot case
In-Reply-To: <CAPoR7a7=JAe8au6UrxQBid_-5SF-T5G-PKrsk8WCCF+1DsHjUA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <001e01cd7e29$741785f0$5c4691d0$@att.net>
 <CAPoR7a7=JAe8au6UrxQBid_-5SF-T5G-PKrsk8WCCF+1DsHjUA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <008801cd7e47$2cfb31d0$86f19570$@att.net>

 

 

From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Stefano Vaj
Subject: Re: [ExI] pussy riot case

 

On 19 August 2012 18:41, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

>>.This Pussy Riot case worries me.  Suggestions please on how to stand in
solidarity with the Pussy Rioters?


>.Hey, coupla years for trespassing for the purpose of committing a felony? 

Stefano, no way Jose.  Read on please.

>.What would it be like in the US, seven years according to federal
sentencing guidelines, right? :-)

No sir, not even close.  Read on please.

>.As much as I may like vandalism of monotheists' ceremonies in principle.

In order to qualify as vandalism, they would have needed to physically
destroy or deface in some way some physical object or asset.  This the Pussy
Riots did not do.  (What is the plural?  Is it Pussies Riot?  That sounds
like fun.  {8-])  From the news stories, it sounds to me like it was a
borderline call on trespassing, since ordinarily a church is considered
unrestricted public access.

>.I am too busy being concerned with Assange's predicament right now.  --
Stefano Vaj

Good call, thanks for watching that.  If you don't mind, have a you a
particular position on that?  One that you would not mind sharing?  I will
go first: ignore Julian's possibly annoying personality as irrelevant, and I
don't even know if it is true.  His stance on privacy is (I think) that all
public political figures in all public transactions should have their
secrets open to all.  We recognize this has its costs, such as our own
privacy to some extent.  But my notion is that government has access to our
secrets, so we should get access to theirs.

 

>>. Suggestions please on how to stand in solidarity with the Pussy Rioters?
spike

 

Regarding Pussy Riot, I respectfully disagree with your contention in all
three of your  lines above:  

 

http://ivn.us/2012/08/18/what-pussy-riot-did-probably-wouldnt-even-be-a-crim
e-in-the-us/

 

Putin appears to be dragging the commies back to the bad old days.  We do
not need, nor can we afford, another cold war.  Just because the good guys
(sorta) won the first time doesn't mean we want to play again.  Anything
analogous to a new iron curtain must be resisted, for that essentially
divided the world of engineering and science into two camps, which had to
invent everything independently, and most of what we invented is mostly
useless war stuff.

 

We need to work with the commies, all of humanity a big, smart team,
thinking and working together on how to solve the looming crisis of a
worldwide energy shortage.  Support Kasparov, support Pussy Riot, make your
own decision on Julian and do explain your reasoning if you wish, thanks.

 

spike

 

Moderators note: since the Pussy Riot stuff and Julian's case are current
events and are subject to rapid change, if I get enough requests, we can
declare a temporary open season on these newsworthy topics.  If you have
relevant stuff to say on these current events, go on ahead and post over the
5-a-day guideline, and we will let it slide unless people complain, which I
doubt anyone will do on news stuff.  If so, be smart and stay on topic,
thanks.  s

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From spike66 at att.net  Sun Aug 19 20:23:39 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2012 13:23:39 -0700
Subject: [ExI] dolchstosslegende, was:  RE:  cost of SBSP and thorium
Message-ID: <009301cd7e48$853d61f0$8fb825d0$@att.net>

>... On Behalf Of BillK

>...But 'dolchstosslegende' seems to refer to the right wing myth which
helped Hitler's rise to power. Has 'dolchstosslegende'
changed into a more general, colloquial use in modern German?  BillK
_______________________________________________


Interesting note for Europeans and libertarians everywhere: the way modern
political terminology is evolving in the states, the American right wing
(conservatives) are very generally aligning with the libertarians such as
the Tea Party, generally favoring smaller government, with the emphasis on
cutting government spending.  The left wing or (liberals) are proposing more
government involvement in the citizens' lives, or generally favoring more
and bigger government, with continued spending at current levels supported
by higher taxes.

The Nazis are down-wing totalitarians; they sure as hell were not for
*smaller* government or less government.  So by the evolved definitions of
modern political terms as used in the states, Hitler and his boys were far
left wing extremists.

spike 



From spike66 at att.net  Sun Aug 19 20:31:20 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2012 13:31:20 -0700
Subject: [ExI] self driving cars again
Message-ID: <009901cd7e49$980b9260$c822b720$@att.net>

 

OK, so it really was an obvious idea.  All my ideas are either old or crazy.
I thought this one might be crazy, but turns out it was sane and old:

 

http://singularityhub.com/2012/08/19/stanfords-self-driving-car-tears-it-up-
on-racetrack-tops-120-mph/?utm_source=The+Harvest+Is+Bountiful
<http://singularityhub.com/2012/08/19/stanfords-self-driving-car-tears-it-up
-on-racetrack-tops-120-mph/?utm_source=The+Harvest+Is+Bountiful&utm_medium=e
mail&utm_campaign=204dd50256-RSS_EMAIL_CAMPAIGN>
&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=204dd50256-RSS_EMAIL_CAMPAIGN

 

 

Stanford's Self-Driving Car Tears It Up On Racetrack - Tops 120 MPH

Just as Google's self-driving Prius goes for distance, recently passing
300,000 miles
<http://singularityhub.com/2012/08/15/googles-self-driving-car-passes-300000
-miles-employees-to-start-commuting-with-it/> , Stanford's self-driving Audi
TTS instead has the need for speed. The Audi, known as Shelley, sped around
the Thunderhill Raceway track north of Sacramento topping 120 miles per hour
<http://news.stanford.edu/pr/2012/pr-shelley-autonomous-car-081312.html>  on
straightaways. The less than two and a half minutes it took to complete the
3-mile course is comparable to times achieved by professional drivers.

 

 

 

Kewall.  {8-]

 

spike

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From charlie.stross at gmail.com  Sun Aug 19 21:29:47 2012
From: charlie.stross at gmail.com (Charlie Stross)
Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2012 22:29:47 +0100
Subject: [ExI] dolchstosslegende, was:  RE:  cost of SBSP and thorium
In-Reply-To: <009301cd7e48$853d61f0$8fb825d0$@att.net>
References: <009301cd7e48$853d61f0$8fb825d0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <AE9DFB7A-7A36-401C-B34E-5B90D485411E@gmail.com>


On 19 Aug 2012, at 21:23, "spike" <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

> 
> Interesting note for Europeans and libertarians everywhere: 
> ...
> The Nazis are down-wing totalitarians; they sure as hell were not for
> *smaller* government or less government.  So by the evolved definitions of
> modern political terms as used in the states, Hitler and his boys were far
> left wing extremists.

That's a naive, unidimensional analysis ("small government" = "right", "big government" = "left").

In fascist ideology, and Nazism in particular, one of the defining characteristics of the creed was that the rights of the individual were subordinate to the state, especially in respect of the disposition of their own body. Fascists were generally enthusiastic about conscription and forced labour, the death penalty, restrictions on abortion and contraception to encourage fecundity, and subordination of the individual to authority. Most of which are currently traits associated with the right in US political usage -- at least, of the religious/authoritarian chunks of the right.

We can argue around this in circles if you want (personally, I think life's too short) -- about the only thing we're likely to reach consensus on is that "fascist" is a rude name to call someone in contemporary discourse. 


-- Charlie 


From anders at aleph.se  Sun Aug 19 22:32:44 2012
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 00:32:44 +0200
Subject: [ExI] pussy riot case
In-Reply-To: <52EF66A8-92DD-45F8-B752-7429F96B2DB0@gmail.com>
References: <001e01cd7e29$741785f0$5c4691d0$@att.net>
 <52EF66A8-92DD-45F8-B752-7429F96B2DB0@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5031698C.8060707@aleph.se>

On 19/08/2012 19:06, Charlie Stross wrote:
> Are you joking? It's been one of the top three foreign news items in the UK for days (along with the SA police massacre of striking mine workers, and Julian Assange continuing to be a narcissistic dick) ...

But giving megalomaniac speeches from a balcony, thanking the people for 
their support... he is *perfect* for South America! :-)

(And foregin minister Bildt and the Ecuadoran president sending snide 
tweets at each other is an added bonus)

-- 
Anders Sandberg,
Future of Humanity Institute
Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University



From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Sun Aug 19 23:20:25 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 01:20:25 +0200
Subject: [ExI] pussy riot case
In-Reply-To: <008801cd7e47$2cfb31d0$86f19570$@att.net>
References: <001e01cd7e29$741785f0$5c4691d0$@att.net>
 <CAPoR7a7=JAe8au6UrxQBid_-5SF-T5G-PKrsk8WCCF+1DsHjUA@mail.gmail.com>
 <008801cd7e47$2cfb31d0$86f19570$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a5-hiShzyP169xLrQQgFJQ5ienC2zd38WnVOAUdsdozDg@mail.gmail.com>

On 19 August 2012 22:14, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

> If you don?t mind, have a you a particular position on that?  One that you
> would not mind sharing?
>

Sorry, I thought it needed not be mentioned, since it seems difficult to
find somebody who has not been personally exposed by Wilkileaks that is not
100% an Assange fan, at least this side of the pond.

I for one certainly am.

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From anders at aleph.se  Sun Aug 19 23:21:36 2012
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 01:21:36 +0200
Subject: [ExI] pussy riot case
In-Reply-To: <006c01cd7e38$123e17e0$36ba47a0$@att.net>
References: <001e01cd7e29$741785f0$5c4691d0$@att.net>
 <52EF66A8-92DD-45F8-B752-7429F96B2DB0@gmail.com>
 <006c01cd7e38$123e17e0$36ba47a0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <50317500.5000508@aleph.se>

On 19/08/2012 20:25, spike wrote:
> That isn't news, but the legal handling of his case interests me. It 
> is clear enough that the charges against him are trumped up, and they 
> really want him for his actions on transparency.

 From my semi-insiders perspective (since I discussed this extensively 
with my Swedish lawyer boyfriend, which automatically makes me a super 
expert :-) ), transparency is a side issue.

It more and more looks like a perfect storm of a narcissist with a posse 
of professional paranoids meeting a career bureaucrat completely 
untrained in how to handle escalation or explaining the finer point of 
the Swedish system. Essentially prosecutor Ny's career is on the line, 
and she misjudged 1) the publicity, 2) the chaotic international 
aspects. The rest of the Swedish legal community are standing at the 
sidelines and smiling.

The exception is Assange's lawyer who is trying to paint the system as 
horrifically corrupt (which is the job was hired for) and a few people 
who got annoyed enough to take him to task (there has been some 
exchanges in the newspaper debate pages; basically the game is to find 
flaws and argue they are huge or don't matter). The lawyer is winning 
online and abroad, since people don't care for the actual boring fine 
print and practice, just what the rules *seem* to say. He is not 
convincing legal people at home, but that doesn't matter.

As for extradition, that is a howler. In principle the US can ask for 
extradition from Sweden (or from the UK, which is much easier!). They 
would then need to submit information enough to convince a Swedish court 
that 1) there is a case, 2) there is enough information linking Assange 
to criminal acts to warrant an extradition. Now, if you buy the 
conspiracy theories all of this exists and is top secret - but keeping 
that top secret in a Swedish court, even if the relationship to a 
powerful foreign power is at stake, is quite tricky. And the courts can 
be very independent (the foreign department is currently wringing their 
hands over a civil case where a building the Russians consider covered 
by diplomatic immunity is going to get sold for tax debts).

But the real circus would be whether Assange would be accused of a 
capital crime. Sweden (like most EU countries) by principle do not 
extradite people if they can be killed. So the procedure would be that 
the Swedish prosecutor would ask their American counterpart to give a 
written assurance that he would not seek the death penalty. This 
assurance is never given, since writing one is apparently political 
suicide for a US prosecutor. Without it nothing will happen.

There are some theoretical loopholes where the government can get around 
the courts if they *really* badly wanted to send Assange west. But these 
are burning bridges situations in a case like this: there would be nasty 
constitutional hearings and it would turn essentially the entire legal 
community against the government. They are still smarting over the 
handling of one CIA suspect who ended up treated badly (I think he 
finally ended up with asylum and compensation).

All this could have been avoided if certain people had not tended to 
escalate. The proper handling would have involved a sequence of boring 
bureaucratic decisions, likely ending with Assange going along with it 
just to get the darn thing out of his hair.

I think outsiders do not comprehend that the transparency aspect of the 
case is not very important in Sweden. People in general - including 
politicians - are fairly in favor of Wikileaks. However, you do not mess 
with the offended-industrial complex! The fact that he seems to have 
behaved like a cad triggered some of the nastier sides of the legal 
system, where political correctness goes hand in hand with puritanism. 
The charges are not trumped up, it is just that in most countries the 
law would have shrugged: "sorry, ladies, that's life". Here it 
overreacted instead. This is why Ny is so tenacious: it is a matter of 
*principle*... and her continued career.

I'm almost hoping he escapes to Ecuador so we can see the next chapter 
when he has a falling out with El Presidente...

-- 
Anders Sandberg,
Future of Humanity Institute
Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University



From spike66 at att.net  Mon Aug 20 01:34:36 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2012 18:34:36 -0700
Subject: [ExI] pussy riot case
In-Reply-To: <CAPoR7a5-hiShzyP169xLrQQgFJQ5ienC2zd38WnVOAUdsdozDg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <001e01cd7e29$741785f0$5c4691d0$@att.net>
 <CAPoR7a7=JAe8au6UrxQBid_-5SF-T5G-PKrsk8WCCF+1DsHjUA@mail.gmail.com>
 <008801cd7e47$2cfb31d0$86f19570$@att.net>
 <CAPoR7a5-hiShzyP169xLrQQgFJQ5ienC2zd38WnVOAUdsdozDg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <002701cd7e73$f5b4d460$e11e7d20$@att.net>

 

 

From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Stefano Vaj
Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2012 4:20 PM
To: ExI chat list
Subject: Re: [ExI] pussy riot case

 

On 19 August 2012 22:14, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

>>.If you don't mind, have a you a particular position on that?  One that
you would not mind sharing?  


>.Sorry, I thought it needed not be mentioned, since it seems difficult to
find somebody who has not been personally exposed by Wilkileaks that is not
100% an Assange fan, at least this side of the pond. 

>.I for one certainly am. -- Stefano Vaj

 

 

Cool thanks.  I have been surprised at how many are in opposition to what he
is doing.  This attitude is not common among this crowd, which is a good
reason why I still hang out here after all these years.  {8-]  spike

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From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Mon Aug 20 04:47:49 2012
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2012 21:47:49 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Further ranting on power sat
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB7sNtShP-ZzjuFBDWABWvW3ryPXZSOa=uiBft0h=vUQvQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 1:26 PM,   Eugen Leitl <eugen at leitl.org> wrote:

> Sorry, this is incorrect. New solar is cheaper than new
> nuclear
>
> https://encrypted.google.com/search?q=solar+cheaper+than+new+nuclear&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=ubuntu&channel=fs

In that cased, you should correct this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cost_of_electricity_by_source#Estimates

And the US government report on which it is based

http://www.eia.gov/forecasts/aeo/electricity_generation.cfm

You might also inform Dr. David MacKay that his concerns are unfounded.

Keith


From pharos at gmail.com  Mon Aug 20 06:46:22 2012
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 07:46:22 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Further ranting on power sat
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB7sNtShP-ZzjuFBDWABWvW3ryPXZSOa=uiBft0h=vUQvQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB7sNtShP-ZzjuFBDWABWvW3ryPXZSOa=uiBft0h=vUQvQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armhPWJdahAfUCX8_7TXSMM6yQ2wJZitA8313+bLiNMSarw@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Aug 20, 2012 at 5:47 AM, Keith Henson wrote:
> On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 1:26 PM,   Eugen Leitl wrote:
>
>> Sorry, this is incorrect. New solar is cheaper than new nuclear
>> https://encrypted.google.com/search?q=solar+cheaper+than+new+nuclear&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=ubuntu&channel=fs
>
> In that cased, you should correct this:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cost_of_electricity_by_source#Estimates
>
> And the US government report on which it is based
> http://www.eia.gov/forecasts/aeo/electricity_generation.cfm
>
>


'When' is the debatable point.  It is inevitable that solar will be
cheaper at some time.
Solar power costs are on a reducing path with zero input fuel costs.
Nuclear power is becoming more expensive and will be much more
expensive in five years time when any new plants would come online..
Solar power cuts peak demand prices (daytime) forcing nuclear to cut
daytime prices and making nuclear less profitable.

Another factor is what costs and benefits are included in these comparisons.
Nuclear 'cleanup' after the plant is closed is usually underestimated.
Similarly, it only takes one failure to produce enormous recovery and
damages costs which would wipe out any possible cost benefits.
Solar power manufacturing and installation will produce much more
employment over the next ten years with benefits to the economy (and
tax income for the government).

In a few years time it will be a 'no-brainer' for every building roof
to be covered with solar panels. Solar power will be everywhere. On
your clothes to recharge your phone, on windows, on car roofs, etc.
etc.

BillK


From charlie.stross at gmail.com  Mon Aug 20 08:35:42 2012
From: charlie.stross at gmail.com (Charlie Stross)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 09:35:42 +0100
Subject: [ExI] pussy riot case
In-Reply-To: <50317500.5000508@aleph.se>
References: <001e01cd7e29$741785f0$5c4691d0$@att.net>
 <52EF66A8-92DD-45F8-B752-7429F96B2DB0@gmail.com>
 <006c01cd7e38$123e17e0$36ba47a0$@att.net> <50317500.5000508@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <95C776D2-C60E-4EC6-84E1-9ACD1394D8FD@gmail.com>


On 20 Aug 2012, at 00:21, Anders Sandberg <anders at aleph.se> wrote:

> It more and more looks like a perfect storm of a narcissist with a posse of professional paranoids meeting a career bureaucrat completely untrained in how to handle escalation or explaining the finer point of the Swedish system.

Yes, this.

However ...

> The fact that he seems to have behaved like a cad triggered some of the nastier sides of the legal system, where political correctness goes hand in hand with puritanism. The charges are not trumped up, it is just that in most countries the law would have shrugged: "sorry, ladies, that's life". Here it overreacted instead. This is why Ny is so tenacious: it is a matter of *principle*... and her continued career.

It's somewhat worse than that. The allegations against Assange would be enough to see him on trial for rape if they'd been made in the UK, and if the police took them seriously.[1] Whether he's *guilty* is another matter, because rape, when it isn't a violent attack committed by a total stranger[2], is a problematic offense to prove. But they're serious enough to tick the boxes for "extradite to Sweden" in the UK.

On the basis of his public actions I'm pretty certain that Assange has narcissistic tendencies, if not a full-blown narcissistic personality disorder. And he wouldn't be the first young-ish male to get a taste of international rock-star grade fame and go wild, overstepping the bounds of the permissible. See, for example, any number of rock stars (dodgy sex, excessive drugs, smashing up hotel rooms ...). Fame does weird things to your neurohormonal axis and it can take years to adapt to it and learn how not to be a dick. (Which puts a whole new -- and scary -- spotlight on Warhol's quip about how, "in the future, everybody will be famous for 15 minutes" ...)


-- Charlie

[1] This is a sore point, and the London Metropolitan Police are about to launch into yet another investigation into why their rape unit isn't producing convictions, or indeed investigating reported crimes ...

[2] Which is to say, most of the time.


From painlord2k at libero.it  Mon Aug 20 08:54:19 2012
From: painlord2k at libero.it (Mirco Romanato)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 10:54:19 +0200
Subject: [ExI] pussy riot case
In-Reply-To: <CAPoR7a7=JAe8au6UrxQBid_-5SF-T5G-PKrsk8WCCF+1DsHjUA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <001e01cd7e29$741785f0$5c4691d0$@att.net>
 <CAPoR7a7=JAe8au6UrxQBid_-5SF-T5G-PKrsk8WCCF+1DsHjUA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5031FB3B.3040609@libero.it>

Il 19/08/2012 19:49, Stefano Vaj ha scritto:
> On 19 August 2012 18:41, spike <spike66 at att.net
> <mailto:spike66 at att.net>> wrote:
>
> This Pussy Riot case worries me.  Suggestions please on how to stand
> in solidarity with the Pussy Rioters?
>
>
> Hey, coupla years for trespassing for the purpose of committing a
> felony?
>
> What would it be like in the US, seven years according to federal
> sentencing guidelines, right? :-)
>
> As much as I may like vandalism of monotheists' ceremonies in
> principle, I am too busy being concerned with Assange's predicament
> right now.

I would like to add the consideration of Prof Volokh
http://www.volokh.com/2012/08/17/two-year-sentences-for-punk-rockers-unauthorized-anti-putin-performance-in-russian-cathedral/

This news from Finland:
http://www.kyivpost.com/content/world/finnish-professor-sued-for-replay-of-pussy-riot-stunt-at-cathedral-in-helsinki-311587.html?flavour=mobile

Law in Victoria (Australia)
http://www.adla.com.au/web/page/vic_disturbing_religious_worship

> Summary Offences Act 1966 - SECT 21
>
> Disturbing religious worship
>
> 21. Disturbing religious worship
>
> (1) Any person who wilfully and without lawful justification or
> excuse, the proof of which lies on him, disquiets or disturbs any
> meeting of persons lawfully assembled for religious worship or
> assaults any person lawfully officiating at any such meeting or any
> of the persons there assembled shall be guilty of an offence.
>
> Penalty: 15 penalty units or imprisonment for three months.
>
> (2) A prosecution for an offence against this section shall be
> commenced within three months after the offence is committed.
>
> Entry of Police into Houses, Buildings, &c.

Nevada Laws for "Disturbing Religious Meetings" (NRS 201.270)
http://www.shouselaw.com/nevada/disturbing-religious-meetings.html

> It's not unusual for Nevada prosecutors to press charges for
> disturbing a religious meeting in conjunction with other crimes.
> Depending on the specific circumstances of the alleged incident,
> defendants often face additional and related charges such as:

Disturbing a Public Meeting or Assembly
California Penal Code 403 PC
http://www.shouselaw.com/disturbing-public-meeting.html

Related Crime: Penal Code 302 - Disturbing a Religious Meeting
In Penal Code 302, California law prohibits one from disturbing a
meeting comprised of religious worship. The statute is analogous to
Penal Code 403, except that it carries a one-year maximum sentence
(whereas Penal Code 403 only carries a six month maximum). 3 The harsher
sentence reflects the public policy interest in protecting the sanctity
of religious meetings.


In Italy we have at least:

> Art. 404. Offese a una confessione religiosa mediante vilipendio o
> danneggiamento di cose. (1)
>
> Chiunque, in luogo destinato al culto, o in luogo pubblico o aperto
> al pubblico, offendendo una confessione religiosa, vilipende con
> espressioni ingiuriose cose che formino oggetto di culto, o siano
> consacrate al culto, o siano destinate necessariamente all'esercizio
> del culto, ovvero commette il fatto in occasione di funzioni
> religiose, compiute in luogo privato da un ministro del culto, ?
> punito con la multa da euro 1.000 a euro 5.000. Chiunque
> pubblicamente e intenzionalmente distrugge, disperde, deteriora,
> rende inservibili o imbratta cose che formino oggetto di culto o
> siano consacrate al culto o siano destinate necessariamente
> all'esercizio del culto ? punito con la reclusione fino a due anni

> Art. 405. Turbamento di funzioni religiose del culto di
> unaconfessione religiosa.
>
> Chiunque impedisce o turba l'esercizio di funzioni, cerimonie o
> pratiche religiose del culto di una confessione religiosa (1), le
> quali si compiano con l'assistenza di un ministro del culto medesimo
> o in un luogo destinato al culto, o in un luogo pubblico o aperto al
> pubblico, ? punito con la reclusione fino a due anni. Se concorrono
> fatti di violenza alle persone o di minaccia, si applica la
> reclusione da uno a tre anni.

And being at least three people doing it (four with the camera man), 
they could apply Art. 416. Associazione per delinquere

It would be up to 3 years for art 405 in Italy and 1 to 5 years for art 416.

Stefano could surely correct me if there is any big mistake.

Mirco


From painlord2k at libero.it  Mon Aug 20 09:17:18 2012
From: painlord2k at libero.it (Mirco Romanato)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 11:17:18 +0200
Subject: [ExI] pussy riot case
In-Reply-To: <008801cd7e47$2cfb31d0$86f19570$@att.net>
References: <001e01cd7e29$741785f0$5c4691d0$@att.net>
 <CAPoR7a7=JAe8au6UrxQBid_-5SF-T5G-PKrsk8WCCF+1DsHjUA@mail.gmail.com>
 <008801cd7e47$2cfb31d0$86f19570$@att.net>
Message-ID: <5032009E.90308@libero.it>

Il 19/08/2012 22:14, spike ha scritto:

Spike, what about the religious freedom angle?

The Pussy Riot group infringed on the freedom of the people peacefully 
assembled there to practice their religion.
More they infringed it in a place technically devoted to it specifically.

The law could appear harsh, but as the sources I linked in the other 
message, it is not so harsher than what could happen in the US, 
Australia, Finland, Italy. Often it just depend on the mood, sympathies 
and goals of the prosecutors and judges to not throw the full book at them.

The point of these laws is to protect some individual rights from others.

Now, if three people jumped on the stage where Madonna was performing, 
or would perform in a few minutes, in front of the people assembled to 
see Madonna and her performance, what would be the penalty for the US, 
Italian,  Australia, Russian, etc. laws?
What if they did it to protest against Obama, or against abortion 
clinics or whatever?

What if instead of one single episode, this become a trend? Disrupt 
public gatherings for the sake of obtaining exposure.

If you argue against prosecuting the Pussy Riot then you must argue 
against prosecuting any individual disturbing public meeting for its 
petty reasons.

About the penalty, we could argue it is too harsh or not. I think the 
severity is more linked to the desire of the lawmakers to protect the 
Churches and churchgoing people from harassment, like could happen in 
the old USSR.

A mild punishment is often a suggestion and an encouragement to repeat 
continue the same action.

Mirco


From charlie.stross at gmail.com  Mon Aug 20 09:22:55 2012
From: charlie.stross at gmail.com (Charlie Stross)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 10:22:55 +0100
Subject: [ExI] pussy riot case
In-Reply-To: <5032009E.90308@libero.it>
References: <001e01cd7e29$741785f0$5c4691d0$@att.net>
 <CAPoR7a7=JAe8au6UrxQBid_-5SF-T5G-PKrsk8WCCF+1DsHjUA@mail.gmail.com>
 <008801cd7e47$2cfb31d0$86f19570$@att.net> <5032009E.90308@libero.it>
Message-ID: <94301133-272D-43F6-BC5A-37487F14085B@gmail.com>


On 20 Aug 2012, at 10:17, Mirco Romanato <painlord2k at libero.it> wrote:

> Il 19/08/2012 22:14, spike ha scritto:
> 
> Spike, what about the religious freedom angle?
> 
> The Pussy Riot group infringed on the freedom of the people peacefully assembled there to practice their religion.
> More they infringed it in a place technically devoted to it specifically.

This is a red herring, because the *actual* prosecution in Russia was on charges of Hooliganism -- an old Soviet catch-all offense frequently used against political dissidents, which is so broadly drawn it can be used to prosecute just about any behaviour that the agents of the state disapprove of (walking too fast on the sidewalk, wearing a loud shirt in a built-up area, and so on).

(You would also run into the interesting question -- in any similar case in the EU, or USA -- of political free speech rights.)


-- Charlie




From eugen at leitl.org  Mon Aug 20 10:14:53 2012
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 12:14:53 +0200
Subject: [ExI] cost of SBSP and thorium
In-Reply-To: <63562CC7-19CC-480F-AC85-6A7DE9816084@brentneal.me>
References: <CAPiwVB7EDc+gDaX6ignvKfJENroL1GFcV1PfaV8z8fz=Tm3gKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <7EB26D7A-1A08-4380-B71F-8A039C501555@brentneal.me>
 <20120819091743.GK12615@leitl.org>
 <AB17C37F-6DA6-40C9-9135-E6DDCC73713B@brentneal.me>
 <20120819183633.GT12615@leitl.org>
 <63562CC7-19CC-480F-AC85-6A7DE9816084@brentneal.me>
Message-ID: <20120820101453.GX12615@leitl.org>

On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 03:52:46PM -0400, Brent Neal wrote:
> 
> On 19 Aug, 2012, at 14:36, Eugen Leitl wrote:
> 
> > Complete bullshit. Thorium fuelcycle systems have been investigated in many
> > countries and all of the pilots have been shut down (the latest in late 1980s).
> > 
> > The dolchstosslegende of thorium fuel cycle being unsuitable for
> > nuclear weapons is also bullshit, both because the projects were
> > civilian, and because U-233 happens to be as suitable for making
> > weapons like U-239. So you're doubly wrong here.
> 
> I think that your knowledge of the nuclear physics here is faulty. Please go and look up the half-life of U-233.

Compare the half life of Pu-239. Nuclear warheads do not have
a shelf lifetime of more than a couple decades.


From charlie.stross at gmail.com  Mon Aug 20 10:38:17 2012
From: charlie.stross at gmail.com (Charlie Stross)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 11:38:17 +0100
Subject: [ExI] cost of SBSP and thorium
In-Reply-To: <20120820101453.GX12615@leitl.org>
References: <CAPiwVB7EDc+gDaX6ignvKfJENroL1GFcV1PfaV8z8fz=Tm3gKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <7EB26D7A-1A08-4380-B71F-8A039C501555@brentneal.me>
 <20120819091743.GK12615@leitl.org>
 <AB17C37F-6DA6-40C9-9135-E6DDCC73713B@brentneal.me>
 <20120819183633.GT12615@leitl.org>
 <63562CC7-19CC-480F-AC85-6A7DE9816084@brentneal.me>
 <20120820101453.GX12615@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <5927E172-AB57-416E-B1FA-B83A71B8F79E@gmail.com>


On 20 Aug 2012, at 11:14, Eugen Leitl <eugen at leitl.org> wrote:

> 
> Compare the half life of Pu-239. Nuclear warheads do not have
> a shelf lifetime of more than a couple decades.

I'm informed (ahem) that it's more like low single-digit years for the weapons that go into ICBM warheads. Those particular warheads need to be as light and small as possible (so you can fit more of them atop the bus, or more penaids, or other extras) so they're manufactured with very high purity ("supergrade") Pu-239. Trouble is, any Pu-240 in the mix will decay via gamma emission and mess with the explosives in the surrounding implosion system (to say nothing of the spontaneous fission problem). So the chemical explosives around the pit need to be replaced regularly, and at somewhat longer intervals the pit itself may need to be remanufactured to get rid of fission products from Pu-240 decay, and then there's the 12.3 year half life of the tritium used as a neutron emitter and a booster in suspended-core warheads.

Obviously the components that need regular replacement/refurbishment are made as modular as possible, but I'd expect a complete tear-down-and-rebuild to be needed at least once a decade unless a nuke is *specifically* designed for long-term storability.


-- Charlie




From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Mon Aug 20 10:27:15 2012
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 03:27:15 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Dreams...
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy0HGiJ79PJbfTFEej+UUQ3S_y7FH4CuUB0mU5awpm5A7w@mail.gmail.com>

My question for the list is just how "transhumanist" are your dreams?  My
own tend to feel like low-budget indie films, where I don't get the girl,
and nothing very futuristic happens.  The last dream I had that I remember
well, had me running around in a Prince of Persia style place (I've never
played the games or seen the film), where at one point I jumped and fell
around 100 feet, and to my surprise (in the dream) was not hurt.  As things
progressed I met a very beautiful woman in a sort of a tasteful I Dream of
Genie outfit (I don't have a sexy dental hygienist in my life like Spike
does, so I have to settle for this), who at one point sat in my lap, but
then ran off with a more exciting guy, in a quest to save the day...


I had a dream several years ago where I was dressed along the lines
of Robin Hood, relaxing on the grass, and in a retro steampunk city that
made me think of Atlantis.  A parade was going on, with scantily clad women
on floats, that ran in front of an extremely deep man-made body
of absolutely crystal clear water.  Monstrously huge gears and cogs were
submerged inside of it, for some unknown purpose, and people were zipping
around on the surface with strange looking water jet-ski's that didn't seem
to have enough parts to possibly operate.  A New Age female friend listened
carefully as I spoke about the dream, and then declared authoritatively
that I was remembering a previous life that occurred during the age of
Atlantis!  ; )


Anyway, I just wondered if some of you had really amazing dreams about the
future, and how much stock if any, you put into them.  And has anyone ever
tried lucid dreaming?  Years ago I spent $300 on a Novadreamer device to
help me to lucid dream, but I could never get the desired effect.


John
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Mon Aug 20 10:35:20 2012
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 03:35:20 -0700
Subject: [ExI] self driving cars again
In-Reply-To: <009901cd7e49$980b9260$c822b720$@att.net>
References: <009901cd7e49$980b9260$c822b720$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy38depGM0i1MNYEzDwXiRtty4Mo1qhsMm2gzAMnBGLmvQ@mail.gmail.com>

 And they even named the car, Shelley!  Now if they name their next
vehicle, "Spike," I will be truly amazed!


John  : )
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From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Mon Aug 20 12:31:47 2012
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 05:31:47 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] pussy riot case
In-Reply-To: <94301133-272D-43F6-BC5A-37487F14085B@gmail.com>
References: <001e01cd7e29$741785f0$5c4691d0$@att.net>
 <CAPoR7a7=JAe8au6UrxQBid_-5SF-T5G-PKrsk8WCCF+1DsHjUA@mail.gmail.com>
 <008801cd7e47$2cfb31d0$86f19570$@att.net> <5032009E.90308@libero.it>
 <94301133-272D-43F6-BC5A-37487F14085B@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1345465907.18249.YahooMailNeo@web164503.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>


>________________________________
>From: Charlie Stross <charlie.stross at gmail.com>
>To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> 
>Sent: Monday, August 20, 2012 2:22 AM
>Subject: Re: [ExI] pussy riot case
>
>
>On 20 Aug 2012, at 10:17, Mirco Romanato <painlord2k at libero.it> wrote:
>
>> Il 19/08/2012 22:14, spike ha scritto:
>> 
>> Spike, what about the religious freedom angle?
>> 
>> The Pussy Riot group infringed on the freedom of the people peacefully assembled there to practice their religion.
>> More they infringed it in a place technically devoted to it specifically.
>
>This is a red herring, because the *actual* prosecution in Russia was on charges of Hooliganism -- an old Soviet catch-all offense frequently used against political dissidents, which is so broadly drawn it can be used to prosecute just about any behaviour that the agents of the state disapprove of (walking too fast on the sidewalk, wearing a loud shirt in a built-up area, and so on).
>
>(You would also run into the interesting question -- in any similar case in the EU, or USA -- of political free speech rights.)

FWIW, I seem to remember that free speech rights didn't protect Keith Henson from prosecution for "interfering with a religion" and he just wrote some stuff on a Usenet group rather than crashing in on?some?Scientological ritual on Co$ property. I suppose how the?Pussy Riot might have?gone over?in the U.S.?would have depended on what church they were protesting.
?
?
Stuart LaForge

"Prisons are built with stones of Law. Brothels with the bricks of religion." - William Blake



From sm at vreedom.de  Mon Aug 20 13:14:16 2012
From: sm at vreedom.de (sm at vreedom.de)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 14:14:16 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Dreams...
In-Reply-To: <CAGSKFy0HGiJ79PJbfTFEej+UUQ3S_y7FH4CuUB0mU5awpm5A7w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGSKFy0HGiJ79PJbfTFEej+UUQ3S_y7FH4CuUB0mU5awpm5A7w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00e201cd7ed5$b42a3050$1c7e90f0$@vreedom.de>

 

Yes, I did. Successfully. Also wrote a SF-novel about technically induced
lucid dreaming. Best full immersion VR-machine available at the moment :)

 

Stephan

 

 

Von: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] Im Auftrag von John Grigg
Gesendet: Montag, 20. August 2012 11:27
An: ExI chat list
Betreff: [ExI] Dreams...

 

My question for the list is just how "transhumanist" are your dreams?  My
own tend to feel like low-budget indie films, where I don't get the girl,
and nothing very futuristic happens.  The last dream I had that I remember
well, had me running around in a Prince of Persia style place (I've never
played the games or seen the film), where at one point I jumped and fell
around 100 feet, and to my surprise (in the dream) was not hurt.  As things
progressed I met a very beautiful woman in a sort of a tasteful I Dream of
Genie outfit (I don't have a sexy dental hygienist in my life like Spike
does, so I have to settle for this), who at one point sat in my lap, but
then ran off with a more exciting guy, in a quest to save the day...  

 

 

I had a dream several years ago where I was dressed along the lines of Robin
Hood, relaxing on the grass, and in a retro steampunk city that made me
think of Atlantis.  A parade was going on, with scantily clad women on
floats, that ran in front of an extremely deep man-made body of absolutely
crystal clear water.  Monstrously huge gears and cogs were submerged inside
of it, for some unknown purpose, and people were zipping around on the
surface with strange looking water jet-ski's that didn't seem to have enough
parts to possibly operate.  A New Age female friend listened carefully as I
spoke about the dream, and then declared authoritatively that I was
remembering a previous life that occurred during the age of Atlantis!  ; )  

 

         

Anyway, I just wondered if some of you had really amazing dreams about the
future, and how much stock if any, you put into them.  And has anyone ever
tried lucid dreaming?  Years ago I spent $300 on a Novadreamer device to
help me to lucid dream, but I could never get the desired effect.

 

 

John

 

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From spike66 at att.net  Mon Aug 20 13:49:04 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 06:49:04 -0700
Subject: [ExI] self driving cars again
In-Reply-To: <CAGSKFy38depGM0i1MNYEzDwXiRtty4Mo1qhsMm2gzAMnBGLmvQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <009901cd7e49$980b9260$c822b720$@att.net>
 <CAGSKFy38depGM0i1MNYEzDwXiRtty4Mo1qhsMm2gzAMnBGLmvQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000f01cd7eda$90710a30$b1531e90$@att.net>

 

 

From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of John Grigg
Sent: Monday, August 20, 2012 3:35 AM
To: ExI chat list
Subject: Re: [ExI] self driving cars again

 

And they even named the car, Shelley!  Now if they name their next vehicle,
"Spike," I will be truly amazed!

 

 

John  : )

 

 

Indeed.  I was most pleased by that.  {8-]

 

s

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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Mon Aug 20 15:46:28 2012
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 11:46:28 -0400
Subject: [ExI] cost of SBSP and thorium
In-Reply-To: <20120819182444.GP12615@leitl.org>
References: <CAPiwVB7EDc+gDaX6ignvKfJENroL1GFcV1PfaV8z8fz=Tm3gKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <7EB26D7A-1A08-4380-B71F-8A039C501555@brentneal.me>
 <CAL_armiNs1QfPvTyLu6_WB14ww37kJnkxSfRjt1UZ2gX+b7F6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120819182444.GP12615@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv1ziBSkL0XStK8eA29eTN64RKXSXVs7yx_XyaFM-O_dJQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 2:24 PM, Eugen Leitl <eugen at leitl.org> wrote:

> John, you're a very poor troll.
>

On the contrary I'm a excellent troll! I've been on this list for 20 years
and according to the Guinness book of world records people that makes me
the longest lived internet troll in the world.

> Thorium is not fissible, but fertile.


Good thing too, otherwise nuclear bombs would be as easy to make as
popcorn.

> A thorium MSR must be kickstarted with fissibles, and have sufficient
> breeding factor.


Yep.

> This has never been tested.
>

The Molten Salt Reactor at Oak Ridge during the 1960's used a liquid fuel
made of U233 and Florine, it ran at full power (7.4 Megawatts) for 4167
hours. The U233 had to be bred from Thorium because U233 does not exist in
nature. It's true it was bred in a different reactor but I don't see why
that makes a fundamental difference, it still ran on the Thorium fuel
cycle; if you still find that unimpressive and want something better I'm
sorry but nobody has spent a nickel on LFTR's since 1969, and if people
like you get their way nobody ever will spend one more cent on LFTR design.

Incidentally if it had been a full LFTR with a blanket of breeding Thorium
it wouldn't have suffered the neutron damage to its metal parts that you
mentioned in one of your very rare substantial non-hysterical posts on this
subject because the Thorium would have absorbed the neutrons, that's where
the U233 comes from.

>> So, allow 10 years for a test build and problem solving. Then a few
>> years for designing a full-size power station and getting quotes for the
>> actual build. Then 5 to 10 years for a production build. It could easily
>> take 20 years.
>>
>
> > In 20 years, the demand gap is 20 TW. You've missed the goal by 20000
> new reactors. You're too late. Buh-bye.
>

It's true it could easily take 20 years or more, but not for any
technological reason. It took less than 6 years to go from the purely
theoretical discovery in Nazi Germany that the Uranium nucleus contained
enormous energy and liberating it did not violate the known fundamental
laws of Physics, to engineers in the USA making machines that used that
energy to destroy 2 cities thousands of miles away. They moved with such
incredible speed because they thought their lives quite literally depended
on it. If there were half as much urgency today we could get a medium sized
LFTR up and running in a matter of months, perhaps weeks; but that's just
not the world we live in. Eugen, you like to make scary noises about how
global warming or energy starvation is going to kill us all any second now,
but it's clear you don't really mean it, if you did you'd be the first to
push for LFTR research and anything else that might offer a solution to
this horrible situation. As it is there is zero urgency so 20 years to
build a small demonstration LFTR is very very optimistic, a infinite number
of years might be a better estimate.

> Oh, and where do you think the ~40 kT of U-233 is coming from?
>

That much U233 would supply enough energy to replace the entire world's use
of coal for at least 20 years, all 120 BILLION tons of it, and it will come
from the only place U233 can come from, Thorium. Existing Uranium reactors
have produced about 1600 tons of Plutonium, there is no way to avoid them
making the crap and regular reactors don't burn it up so it just
accumulates. A LFTR produces U233 from Thorium but it burns 100% of it up,
it has to or the reactor won't operate, and it makes virtually no Plutonium.

> Why are you lying, John?
>

This sort of emotional response indicates to me that there is something
other than logic behind your opposition.

  John K Clark
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Mon Aug 20 16:06:12 2012
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 12:06:12 -0400
Subject: [ExI] cost of SBSP and thorium
In-Reply-To: <20120819183633.GT12615@leitl.org>
References: <CAPiwVB7EDc+gDaX6ignvKfJENroL1GFcV1PfaV8z8fz=Tm3gKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <7EB26D7A-1A08-4380-B71F-8A039C501555@brentneal.me>
 <20120819091743.GK12615@leitl.org>
 <AB17C37F-6DA6-40C9-9135-E6DDCC73713B@brentneal.me>
 <20120819183633.GT12615@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv3JQxrvV5BGH7gc_jYzgycnPQARAOizN_7qh0A6Cw_h9g@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 2:36 PM, Eugen Leitl <eugen at leitl.org> wrote:

> U-233 happens to be as suitable for making weapons like U-239
>

Yes, U-233 is about as helpful in making a nuclear bomb as U-239, in other
words not much.  U-239 has a half life of only 23 minutes so your strategic
stockpile of U-239 bombs isn't going to be good for very long. The two
isotopes are similar in another way too, they both produce so many gamma
rays even a suicidal terrorist in a led suit would be dead before he was
half finished making the bomb.

  John K Clark
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Mon Aug 20 16:48:53 2012
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 12:48:53 -0400
Subject: [ExI] cost of SBSP and thorium
In-Reply-To: <5927E172-AB57-416E-B1FA-B83A71B8F79E@gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB7EDc+gDaX6ignvKfJENroL1GFcV1PfaV8z8fz=Tm3gKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <7EB26D7A-1A08-4380-B71F-8A039C501555@brentneal.me>
 <20120819091743.GK12615@leitl.org>
 <AB17C37F-6DA6-40C9-9135-E6DDCC73713B@brentneal.me>
 <20120819183633.GT12615@leitl.org>
 <63562CC7-19CC-480F-AC85-6A7DE9816084@brentneal.me>
 <20120820101453.GX12615@leitl.org>
 <5927E172-AB57-416E-B1FA-B83A71B8F79E@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv00TDtJFcCdy3jxUmDbg1iD9NuTEZ7YrOgchDE20==tww@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Aug 20, 2012 at 6:38 AM, Charlie Stross <charlie.stross at gmail.com>wrote:

> Trouble is, any Pu-240 in the mix will decay via gamma emission and mess
> with the explosives in the surrounding implosion system


But there is always a layer of Lithium Deuteride and more important a thick
U238 tamper between the Plutonium 239  tainted with Pu-240 and the chemical
explosives, and that shields against most of the gamma rays; good thing too
otherwise nuclear warheads would be lethal to the crew in submarines.

> and then there's the 12.3 year half life of the tritium used as a neutron
> emitter and a booster in suspended-core warheads.
>

Modern H-bombs may use a very small about of tritium in their neutron
initiators but the vast majority is bred in a very small fraction of a
second from Lithium Deuteride. It was originally thought that only the rare
isotope Lithium-6 would work for this purpose but it was later found that
the common isotope Lithium-7 would work almost as well. That's why the
first H-bomb test that used Lithium Deuteride, the Castle Bravo test in
1954, was expected to produce a blast of 4 megatons but ended up producing
15, it killed several Japanese fishermen who were well outside the official
danger area.

  John K Clark
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From charlie.stross at gmail.com  Mon Aug 20 17:08:15 2012
From: charlie.stross at gmail.com (Charlie Stross)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 18:08:15 +0100
Subject: [ExI] cost of SBSP and thorium
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv00TDtJFcCdy3jxUmDbg1iD9NuTEZ7YrOgchDE20==tww@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB7EDc+gDaX6ignvKfJENroL1GFcV1PfaV8z8fz=Tm3gKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <7EB26D7A-1A08-4380-B71F-8A039C501555@brentneal.me>
 <20120819091743.GK12615@leitl.org>
 <AB17C37F-6DA6-40C9-9135-E6DDCC73713B@brentneal.me>
 <20120819183633.GT12615@leitl.org>
 <63562CC7-19CC-480F-AC85-6A7DE9816084@brentneal.me>
 <20120820101453.GX12615@leitl.org>
 <5927E172-AB57-416E-B1FA-B83A71B8F79E@gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv00TDtJFcCdy3jxUmDbg1iD9NuTEZ7YrOgchDE20==tww@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <D745FD33-5208-46DD-AD78-5A4206F331B4@gmail.com>


On 20 Aug 2012, at 17:48, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

> 
> Modern H-bombs may use a very small about of tritium in their neutron
> initiators but the vast majority is bred in a very small fraction of a
> second from Lithium Deuteride. It was originally thought that only the rare
> isotope Lithium-6 would work for this purpose but it was later found that
> the common isotope Lithium-7 would work almost as well. That's why the
> first H-bomb test that used Lithium Deuteride, the Castle Bravo test in
> 1954, was expected to produce a blast of 4 megatons but ended up producing
> 15, it killed several Japanese fishermen who were well outside the official
> danger area.

If that's the crew of the "Lucky Dragon", weren't they caught in the fallout plume rather than directly killed by the heat flash/blast/prompt radiation?


-- Charlie


From johnkclark at gmail.com  Mon Aug 20 17:36:06 2012
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 13:36:06 -0400
Subject: [ExI] cost of SBSP and thorium
In-Reply-To: <D745FD33-5208-46DD-AD78-5A4206F331B4@gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB7EDc+gDaX6ignvKfJENroL1GFcV1PfaV8z8fz=Tm3gKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <7EB26D7A-1A08-4380-B71F-8A039C501555@brentneal.me>
 <20120819091743.GK12615@leitl.org>
 <AB17C37F-6DA6-40C9-9135-E6DDCC73713B@brentneal.me>
 <20120819183633.GT12615@leitl.org>
 <63562CC7-19CC-480F-AC85-6A7DE9816084@brentneal.me>
 <20120820101453.GX12615@leitl.org>
 <5927E172-AB57-416E-B1FA-B83A71B8F79E@gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv00TDtJFcCdy3jxUmDbg1iD9NuTEZ7YrOgchDE20==tww@mail.gmail.com>
 <D745FD33-5208-46DD-AD78-5A4206F331B4@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv1g-qwDejhWKW6vwaCOwLBGVzgZHvLGd-TaygUx4EkSNA@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Aug 20, 2012 at 1:08 PM, Charlie Stross <charlie.stross at gmail.com>wrote:

>> Modern H-bombs may use a very small about of tritium in their neutron
>> nitiators but the vast majority is bred in a very small fraction of a
>> second from Lithium Deuteride. It was originally thought that only the rare
>> isotope Lithium-6 would work for this purpose but it was later found that
>> the common isotope Lithium-7 would work almost as well. That's why the
>> first H-bomb test that used Lithium Deuteride, the Castle Bravo test
>> in1954, was expected to produce a blast of 4 megatons but ended up
>> producing 15, it killed several Japanese fishermen who were well outside
>> the official danger area.
>
>

> If that's the crew of the "Lucky Dragon", weren't they caught in the
> fallout plume rather than directly killed by the heat flash/blast/prompt
> radiation?
>

Yes. The unexpected excess of tritium caused more fusion reactions and thus
more extremely high energy neutrons.  Neutrons that move this fast will
cause even the hard (but not impossible) to fission U238 in the tamper to
fission. Actually in a H-bomb about 70% of the energy does not come
directly from the fusion reaction but from the fission of common hard to
fission U238 in the tamper from very fast neutrons produced by fusion; most
of the radioactive fallout also comes from the fission of that U238 by
those very very fast neutrons, and the fallout was what killed the
fishermen.

  John K Clark
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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Mon Aug 20 17:49:48 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 19:49:48 +0200
Subject: [ExI] pussy riot case
In-Reply-To: <5031FB3B.3040609@libero.it>
References: <001e01cd7e29$741785f0$5c4691d0$@att.net>
 <CAPoR7a7=JAe8au6UrxQBid_-5SF-T5G-PKrsk8WCCF+1DsHjUA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5031FB3B.3040609@libero.it>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a5=OHSpmZ84i8O7wmoTO0o-MJtAiACq3LnSJ5+zdW7AMw@mail.gmail.com>

No, as accurate as ever... :-)
Il giorno 20/ago/2012 11:06, "Mirco Romanato" <painlord2k at libero.it> ha
scritto:

> Il 19/08/2012 19:49, Stefano Vaj ha scritto:
>
>> On 19 August 2012 18:41, spike <spike66 at att.net
>> <mailto:spike66 at att.net>> wrote:
>>
>> This Pussy Riot case worries me.  Suggestions please on how to stand
>> in solidarity with the Pussy Rioters?
>>
>>
>> Hey, coupla years for trespassing for the purpose of committing a
>> felony?
>>
>> What would it be like in the US, seven years according to federal
>> sentencing guidelines, right? :-)
>>
>> As much as I may like vandalism of monotheists' ceremonies in
>> principle, I am too busy being concerned with Assange's predicament
>> right now.
>>
>
> I would like to add the consideration of Prof Volokh
> http://www.volokh.com/2012/08/**17/two-year-sentences-for-**
> punk-rockers-unauthorized-**anti-putin-performance-in-**russian-cathedral/<http://www.volokh.com/2012/08/17/two-year-sentences-for-punk-rockers-unauthorized-anti-putin-performance-in-russian-cathedral/>
>
> This news from Finland:
> http://www.kyivpost.com/**content/world/finnish-**
> professor-sued-for-replay-of-**pussy-riot-stunt-at-cathedral-**
> in-helsinki-311587.html?**flavour=mobile<http://www.kyivpost.com/content/world/finnish-professor-sued-for-replay-of-pussy-riot-stunt-at-cathedral-in-helsinki-311587.html?flavour=mobile>
>
> Law in Victoria (Australia)
> http://www.adla.com.au/web/**page/vic_disturbing_religious_**worship<http://www.adla.com.au/web/page/vic_disturbing_religious_worship>
>
>  Summary Offences Act 1966 - SECT 21
>>
>> Disturbing religious worship
>>
>> 21. Disturbing religious worship
>>
>> (1) Any person who wilfully and without lawful justification or
>> excuse, the proof of which lies on him, disquiets or disturbs any
>> meeting of persons lawfully assembled for religious worship or
>> assaults any person lawfully officiating at any such meeting or any
>> of the persons there assembled shall be guilty of an offence.
>>
>> Penalty: 15 penalty units or imprisonment for three months.
>>
>> (2) A prosecution for an offence against this section shall be
>> commenced within three months after the offence is committed.
>>
>> Entry of Police into Houses, Buildings, &c.
>>
>
> Nevada Laws for "Disturbing Religious Meetings" (NRS 201.270)
> http://www.shouselaw.com/**nevada/disturbing-religious-**meetings.html<http://www.shouselaw.com/nevada/disturbing-religious-meetings.html>
>
>  It's not unusual for Nevada prosecutors to press charges for
>> disturbing a religious meeting in conjunction with other crimes.
>> Depending on the specific circumstances of the alleged incident,
>> defendants often face additional and related charges such as:
>>
>
> Disturbing a Public Meeting or Assembly
> California Penal Code 403 PC
> http://www.shouselaw.com/**disturbing-public-meeting.html<http://www.shouselaw.com/disturbing-public-meeting.html>
>
> Related Crime: Penal Code 302 - Disturbing a Religious Meeting
> In Penal Code 302, California law prohibits one from disturbing a
> meeting comprised of religious worship. The statute is analogous to
> Penal Code 403, except that it carries a one-year maximum sentence
> (whereas Penal Code 403 only carries a six month maximum). 3 The harsher
> sentence reflects the public policy interest in protecting the sanctity
> of religious meetings.
>
>
> In Italy we have at least:
>
>  Art. 404. Offese a una confessione religiosa mediante vilipendio o
>> danneggiamento di cose. (1)
>>
>> Chiunque, in luogo destinato al culto, o in luogo pubblico o aperto
>> al pubblico, offendendo una confessione religiosa, vilipende con
>> espressioni ingiuriose cose che formino oggetto di culto, o siano
>> consacrate al culto, o siano destinate necessariamente all'esercizio
>> del culto, ovvero commette il fatto in occasione di funzioni
>> religiose, compiute in luogo privato da un ministro del culto, ?
>> punito con la multa da euro 1.000 a euro 5.000. Chiunque
>> pubblicamente e intenzionalmente distrugge, disperde, deteriora,
>> rende inservibili o imbratta cose che formino oggetto di culto o
>> siano consacrate al culto o siano destinate necessariamente
>> all'esercizio del culto ? punito con la reclusione fino a due anni
>>
>
>  Art. 405. Turbamento di funzioni religiose del culto di
>> unaconfessione religiosa.
>>
>> Chiunque impedisce o turba l'esercizio di funzioni, cerimonie o
>> pratiche religiose del culto di una confessione religiosa (1), le
>> quali si compiano con l'assistenza di un ministro del culto medesimo
>> o in un luogo destinato al culto, o in un luogo pubblico o aperto al
>> pubblico, ? punito con la reclusione fino a due anni. Se concorrono
>> fatti di violenza alle persone o di minaccia, si applica la
>> reclusione da uno a tre anni.
>>
>
> And being at least three people doing it (four with the camera man), they
> could apply Art. 416. Associazione per delinquere
>
> It would be up to 3 years for art 405 in Italy and 1 to 5 years for art
> 416.
>
> Stefano could surely correct me if there is any big mistake.
>
> Mirco
> ______________________________**_________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/**mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-**chat<http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat>
>
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From eugen at leitl.org  Mon Aug 20 19:36:30 2012
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 21:36:30 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Further ranting on power sat
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB7sNtShP-ZzjuFBDWABWvW3ryPXZSOa=uiBft0h=vUQvQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB7sNtShP-ZzjuFBDWABWvW3ryPXZSOa=uiBft0h=vUQvQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120820193630.GZ12615@leitl.org>

On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 09:47:49PM -0700, Keith Henson wrote:
> On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 1:26 PM,   Eugen Leitl <eugen at leitl.org> wrote:
> 
> > Sorry, this is incorrect. New solar is cheaper than new
> > nuclear
> >
> > https://encrypted.google.com/search?q=solar+cheaper+than+new+nuclear&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=ubuntu&channel=fs
> 
> In that cased, you should correct this:

Somebody is wrong on the Internet? Sorry, no longer can
care enough https://xkcd.com/386/
 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cost_of_electricity_by_source#Estimates
> 
> And the US government report on which it is based
> 
> http://www.eia.gov/forecasts/aeo/electricity_generation.cfm
> 
> You might also inform Dr. David MacKay that his concerns are unfounded.

I can tell you that the costs for renewable are only going down, while
the costs for nonrenewable are only going up. It doesn't take a genius
to figure out where this is going.


From anders at aleph.se  Mon Aug 20 19:14:41 2012
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 21:14:41 +0200
Subject: [ExI] pussy riot case
In-Reply-To: <95C776D2-C60E-4EC6-84E1-9ACD1394D8FD@gmail.com>
References: <001e01cd7e29$741785f0$5c4691d0$@att.net>
 <52EF66A8-92DD-45F8-B752-7429F96B2DB0@gmail.com>
 <006c01cd7e38$123e17e0$36ba47a0$@att.net> <50317500.5000508@aleph.se>
 <95C776D2-C60E-4EC6-84E1-9ACD1394D8FD@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <50328CA1.9010408@aleph.se>

There is a long and interesting debate in philosophy, law and politics 
about what kinds of protests against the political system are 
acceptable. Sure, rules are different in different times and cultures, 
but which ones make internal sense? Or, if one is universalist, which 
ones are actually right?

A not too smart op-ed writer in a Swedish newspaper made a comparison 
between the verdict against Pussy Riot and the subsequent outrage and 
the verdicts against the London rioters and the lack of widespread 
outrage against those. The problem was of course that the rioters were 
doing general vandalism to express their disquiet, not a targeted 
protest. There probably *should* have been more outrage against the 
harsh penalties against "Facebook organizers", but again this might be 
more a matter of a legal system being out of touch with informational 
realities. But even recognizing that, it is pretty clear that just 
lashing out is not really a proper protest: it does not have a goal, it 
rarely achieves any ends (at least not ends desired by the rioters).

Another recent case I have been following (since one of the perpetrators 
is in my network) was the aerial bombardment of teddy bears with 
parachutes bearing messages about democracy in Belorussia. This turned 
into grand comedy as the country first denied that it had ever happened, 
despite posted YouTube videos. Then the chief of the Air Force was 
fired. Then the Swedish ambassador was asked to leave (he has pretty 
close ties with the democratic opposition) and eventually all diplomatic 
contact between the countries ended. Meanwhile a clearly riled up 
Lukashenko was shouting, only achieving more democracy support from the 
EU and no support from Putin. Then the perpetrators were sent a formal 
letter demanding that they show up at the KGB headquarters in Minsk for 
"discussion": instead they sent a hilarious invitation to Lukashenko to 
come and visit them in Sweden, putting it online.

Was this a good protest? It got the world even more aware of the antics 
of the last pure dictatorship in Europe, put even more pressure on it 
and embarassed the leadership to no end. The message was also clear: 
things would be better with a democratic, open society. But it also 
likely put the opposition in a tougher spot. Estimating whether it all 
things consider was good is hard. But it is worth noting that during the 
Arab Spring few people on the outside felt that it was a bad idea 
criticizing bad governments because they might crack down on their 
people more harshly.

The teddy bear case also demonstrates another thing: private people can 
and do produce foreign entanglements. The Swedish foreign department 
seems to have handled the affair without rancor (and Carl Bildt has 
responded to it on his blog with perfect smug sarcasm - he gets the 
entire sarcasm budget of Sweden, since he makes good use of it) while 
the security police got totally confused when told about it: the 
responsible person appears to have disbelieved the story until he read 
about it in the newspapers, and they have no clue of what to do with KGB 
agents threatening Swedish citizens at home.

So, extrapolating: expect to see more trans-border protests as 
technology and globalisation continues apace. Today anybody can be a 
foreign agent - no competence or idea about the issues needed. So there 
will also be more cases where people stumble into conflicts and 
sensitive situations with all the finesse of elephants in china shops. 
The methods that constitute a (valid?) protest are also going to mutate 
and evolve wildly. This is going to make paranoid governments go 
bonkers, cause a few policy disasters, and open societies are going to 
have to consider just how much their citizens will be allowed to play 
James Bond.



-- 
Anders Sandberg
Future of Humanity Institute
Oxford University


From eugen at leitl.org  Mon Aug 20 20:10:02 2012
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 22:10:02 +0200
Subject: [ExI] cost of SBSP and thorium
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv1ziBSkL0XStK8eA29eTN64RKXSXVs7yx_XyaFM-O_dJQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB7EDc+gDaX6ignvKfJENroL1GFcV1PfaV8z8fz=Tm3gKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <7EB26D7A-1A08-4380-B71F-8A039C501555@brentneal.me>
 <CAL_armiNs1QfPvTyLu6_WB14ww37kJnkxSfRjt1UZ2gX+b7F6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120819182444.GP12615@leitl.org>
 <CAJPayv1ziBSkL0XStK8eA29eTN64RKXSXVs7yx_XyaFM-O_dJQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120820201002.GG12615@leitl.org>


Have fun playing in your sandbox. Alone.

On Mon, Aug 20, 2012 at 11:46:28AM -0400, John Clark wrote:
> On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 2:24 PM, Eugen Leitl <eugen at leitl.org> wrote:
> 
> > John, you're a very poor troll.
> >
> 
> On the contrary I'm a excellent troll! I've been on this list for 20 years
> and according to the Guinness book of world records people that makes me
> the longest lived internet troll in the world.
> 
> > Thorium is not fissible, but fertile.
> 
> 
> Good thing too, otherwise nuclear bombs would be as easy to make as
> popcorn.
> 
> > A thorium MSR must be kickstarted with fissibles, and have sufficient
> > breeding factor.
> 
> 
> Yep.
> 
> > This has never been tested.
> >
> 
> The Molten Salt Reactor at Oak Ridge during the 1960's used a liquid fuel
> made of U233 and Florine, it ran at full power (7.4 Megawatts) for 4167
> hours. The U233 had to be bred from Thorium because U233 does not exist in
> nature. It's true it was bred in a different reactor but I don't see why
> that makes a fundamental difference, it still ran on the Thorium fuel
> cycle; if you still find that unimpressive and want something better I'm
> sorry but nobody has spent a nickel on LFTR's since 1969, and if people
> like you get their way nobody ever will spend one more cent on LFTR design.
> 
> Incidentally if it had been a full LFTR with a blanket of breeding Thorium
> it wouldn't have suffered the neutron damage to its metal parts that you
> mentioned in one of your very rare substantial non-hysterical posts on this
> subject because the Thorium would have absorbed the neutrons, that's where
> the U233 comes from.
> 
> >> So, allow 10 years for a test build and problem solving. Then a few
> >> years for designing a full-size power station and getting quotes for the
> >> actual build. Then 5 to 10 years for a production build. It could easily
> >> take 20 years.
> >>
> >
> > > In 20 years, the demand gap is 20 TW. You've missed the goal by 20000
> > new reactors. You're too late. Buh-bye.
> >
> 
> It's true it could easily take 20 years or more, but not for any
> technological reason. It took less than 6 years to go from the purely
> theoretical discovery in Nazi Germany that the Uranium nucleus contained
> enormous energy and liberating it did not violate the known fundamental
> laws of Physics, to engineers in the USA making machines that used that
> energy to destroy 2 cities thousands of miles away. They moved with such
> incredible speed because they thought their lives quite literally depended
> on it. If there were half as much urgency today we could get a medium sized
> LFTR up and running in a matter of months, perhaps weeks; but that's just
> not the world we live in. Eugen, you like to make scary noises about how
> global warming or energy starvation is going to kill us all any second now,
> but it's clear you don't really mean it, if you did you'd be the first to
> push for LFTR research and anything else that might offer a solution to
> this horrible situation. As it is there is zero urgency so 20 years to
> build a small demonstration LFTR is very very optimistic, a infinite number
> of years might be a better estimate.
> 
> > Oh, and where do you think the ~40 kT of U-233 is coming from?
> >
> 
> That much U233 would supply enough energy to replace the entire world's use
> of coal for at least 20 years, all 120 BILLION tons of it, and it will come
> from the only place U233 can come from, Thorium. Existing Uranium reactors
> have produced about 1600 tons of Plutonium, there is no way to avoid them
> making the crap and regular reactors don't burn it up so it just
> accumulates. A LFTR produces U233 from Thorium but it burns 100% of it up,
> it has to or the reactor won't operate, and it makes virtually no Plutonium.
> 
> > Why are you lying, John?
> >
> 
> This sort of emotional response indicates to me that there is something
> other than logic behind your opposition.
> 
>   John K Clark

> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

-- 
Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE


From eugen at leitl.org  Mon Aug 20 20:17:47 2012
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 22:17:47 +0200
Subject: [ExI] cost of SBSP and thorium
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv3JQxrvV5BGH7gc_jYzgycnPQARAOizN_7qh0A6Cw_h9g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB7EDc+gDaX6ignvKfJENroL1GFcV1PfaV8z8fz=Tm3gKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <7EB26D7A-1A08-4380-B71F-8A039C501555@brentneal.me>
 <20120819091743.GK12615@leitl.org>
 <AB17C37F-6DA6-40C9-9135-E6DDCC73713B@brentneal.me>
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Message-ID: <20120820201747.GH12615@leitl.org>



On Mon, Aug 20, 2012 at 12:06:12PM -0400, John Clark wrote:
> On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 2:36 PM, Eugen Leitl <eugen at leitl.org> wrote:
> 
> > U-233 happens to be as suitable for making weapons like U-239
> >
> 
> Yes, U-233 is about as helpful in making a nuclear bomb as U-239, in other

And since you insist to take a typo, and run with it: here's the emotional
response you've been craving: FUCK YOU VERY MUCH, John. This is the only
kind of response you'll be getting from me henceforth for a couple years: 
FUCK YOU. Don't complain, you worked hard enough for it.

> words not much.  U-239 has a half life of only 23 minutes so your strategic
> stockpile of U-239 bombs isn't going to be good for very long. The two
> isotopes are similar in another way too, they both produce so many gamma
> rays even a suicidal terrorist in a led suit would be dead before he was
> half finished making the bomb.
> 
>   John K Clark

> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

-- 
Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE


From spike66 at att.net  Mon Aug 20 20:18:46 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 13:18:46 -0700
Subject: [ExI] pussy riot case
In-Reply-To: <5032009E.90308@libero.it>
References: <001e01cd7e29$741785f0$5c4691d0$@att.net>
 <CAPoR7a7=JAe8au6UrxQBid_-5SF-T5G-PKrsk8WCCF+1DsHjUA@mail.gmail.com>
 <008801cd7e47$2cfb31d0$86f19570$@att.net> <5032009E.90308@libero.it>
Message-ID: <009b01cd7f11$0116dea0$03449be0$@att.net>


>... On Behalf Of Mirco Romanato
Subject: Re: [ExI] pussy riot case

Il 19/08/2012 22:14, spike ha scritto:

>...Spike, what about the religious freedom angle?
...
>...A mild punishment is often a suggestion and an encouragement to repeat
continue the same action...Mirco


Mirco, good points all, excellent.  I stand with Pussy Riot.  The judge
should have given them two weeks in the slammer for trespassing, not two
years.  I am really squirmy about sentencing them for anything that sounds
even remotely like "interfering with a religion."

spike



From kellycoinguy at gmail.com  Mon Aug 20 21:29:02 2012
From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 15:29:02 -0600
Subject: [ExI] pussy riot case
In-Reply-To: <CAPoR7a5-hiShzyP169xLrQQgFJQ5ienC2zd38WnVOAUdsdozDg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <001e01cd7e29$741785f0$5c4691d0$@att.net>
 <CAPoR7a7=JAe8au6UrxQBid_-5SF-T5G-PKrsk8WCCF+1DsHjUA@mail.gmail.com>
 <008801cd7e47$2cfb31d0$86f19570$@att.net>
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Message-ID: <CAPy8RwaJiWCdJnm3nW_dUQn_TtuTPhPggpBqS+BkACGdmW6qsA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 5:20 PM, Stefano Vaj <stefano.vaj at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 19 August 2012 22:14, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>>
>> If you don?t mind, have a you a particular position on that?  One that you
>> would not mind sharing?
>
>
> Sorry, I thought it needed not be mentioned, since it seems difficult to
> find somebody who has not been personally exposed by Wilkileaks that is not
> 100% an Assange fan, at least this side of the pond.
>
> I for one certainly am.

I have not been personally exposed by Wikileaks. I think Assange is a
prick. He is a megalomaniac and is downright dangerous to all of us.

I get what he's trying to do, and there is a part of me that is
somewhat supportive of outing certain things... but when you start
publishing stuff that could well cost people their lives, I have to
draw the line. Publishing the names of local people who have worked
for the US armed forces is a particularly obnoxious thing to publish
because some poor soul who is just trying to feed his family ends up
getting kidnapped and killed.

It is irresponsible. I think Assange will eventually go down hard.

-Kelly



From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Tue Aug 21 00:31:16 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 02:31:16 +0200
Subject: [ExI] pussy riot case
In-Reply-To: <009b01cd7f11$0116dea0$03449be0$@att.net>
References: <001e01cd7e29$741785f0$5c4691d0$@att.net>
 <CAPoR7a7=JAe8au6UrxQBid_-5SF-T5G-PKrsk8WCCF+1DsHjUA@mail.gmail.com>
 <008801cd7e47$2cfb31d0$86f19570$@att.net>
 <5032009E.90308@libero.it>
 <009b01cd7f11$0116dea0$03449be0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a7f3aaYRESJc0Gv3fBqYE3eWz_rc3j+WTY8Vkf1EKxG7g@mail.gmail.com>

On 20 August 2012 22:18, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

> I am really squirmy about sentencing them for anything that sounds
> even remotely like "interfering with a religion."
>

In a way, this is what could make me sympathise with the Pussy Riots,
because after all they were interfering with a religion I personally
dislike (albeit probably less than catholicism or Wahhabite Islam). :-)

What makes me reluctant to feel too involved in this very minor episode,
and in fact annoys me, is that most of their supporters could not care less
about that, and in fact would have a very different or even opposite
position if the "political context" had been different.

Had it been Dawkins being arrested for stripping naked in the Westminster
cathedral during a queen-assisted ceremony, I would probably react in a
stronger way. :-)

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Tue Aug 21 00:41:23 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 02:41:23 +0200
Subject: [ExI] pussy riot case
In-Reply-To: <CAPy8RwaJiWCdJnm3nW_dUQn_TtuTPhPggpBqS+BkACGdmW6qsA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <001e01cd7e29$741785f0$5c4691d0$@att.net>
 <CAPoR7a7=JAe8au6UrxQBid_-5SF-T5G-PKrsk8WCCF+1DsHjUA@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAPoR7a6jsL5Ci9kU1whfoSukjT7Kd5O3_jGhDbfDXg00fkwi5A@mail.gmail.com>

On 20 August 2012 23:29, Kelly Anderson <kellycoinguy at gmail.com> wrote:

> I have not been personally exposed by Wikileaks. I think Assange is a
> prick.
>

OK, I stand corrected. There is at least one of us who thinks like you. :-)

With regard to his "irresponsibility", I accept the idea that some leaks
might be consider as "treason", after a fashion, from the point of view of
those who thought to be entitled to expect some loyalty from the leakers.
But at the same time, those same people not only routinely expose their
enemies, but sometimes even set a price on their heads. Isn't that "playing
with their lives"?

You can of course make a difference between the two positions, but this
strictly depends on the side you are taking in the relevant dispute. And I
am not aware that Assange owes any especial loyalty to either party.

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From sparge at gmail.com  Tue Aug 21 00:38:03 2012
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 20:38:03 -0400
Subject: [ExI] dolchstosslegende, was: RE: cost of SBSP and thorium
In-Reply-To: <AE9DFB7A-7A36-401C-B34E-5B90D485411E@gmail.com>
References: <009301cd7e48$853d61f0$8fb825d0$@att.net>
 <AE9DFB7A-7A36-401C-B34E-5B90D485411E@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2fPSDwyvr=rhvzqXm3E8fegumYMQgP4GK9=3wVtAR9tGg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 5:29 PM, Charlie Stross <charlie.stross at gmail.com>wrote:

> That's a naive, unidimensional analysis ("small government" = "right",
> "big government" = "left").
>

That's not what Spike said, which is:

"...the American right wing (conservatives) are very generally aligning
with the libertarians such as the Tea Party, generally favoring smaller
government, with the emphasis on cutting government spending.  The left
wing or (liberals) are proposing more government involvement in the
citizens' lives, or generally favoring more and bigger government, with
continued spending at current levels supported
by higher taxes."

And that's simply an observation, not an analysis.

-Dave
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From spike66 at att.net  Tue Aug 21 01:12:10 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 18:12:10 -0700
Subject: [ExI] pussy riot case
In-Reply-To: <CAPoR7a7f3aaYRESJc0Gv3fBqYE3eWz_rc3j+WTY8Vkf1EKxG7g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <001e01cd7e29$741785f0$5c4691d0$@att.net>
 <CAPoR7a7=JAe8au6UrxQBid_-5SF-T5G-PKrsk8WCCF+1DsHjUA@mail.gmail.com>
 <008801cd7e47$2cfb31d0$86f19570$@att.net> <5032009E.90308@libero.it>
 <009b01cd7f11$0116dea0$03449be0$@att.net>
 <CAPoR7a7f3aaYRESJc0Gv3fBqYE3eWz_rc3j+WTY8Vkf1EKxG7g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <010101cd7f39$fdee9ff0$f9cbdfd0$@att.net>

 

 

From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Stefano Vaj
.

>.Had it been Dawkins being arrested for stripping naked in the Westminster
cathedral during a queen-assisted ceremony, I would probably react in a
stronger way. :-)  -- Stefano Vaj

 

 

Dawkins is god.  If he did the above, I would rally in favor of having the
queen arrested for voyeurism.  

 

spike

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From spike66 at att.net  Tue Aug 21 01:27:37 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 18:27:37 -0700
Subject: [ExI] dolchstosslegende, was: RE: cost of SBSP and thorium
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2fPSDwyvr=rhvzqXm3E8fegumYMQgP4GK9=3wVtAR9tGg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <009301cd7e48$853d61f0$8fb825d0$@att.net>
 <AE9DFB7A-7A36-401C-B34E-5B90D485411E@gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2fPSDwyvr=rhvzqXm3E8fegumYMQgP4GK9=3wVtAR9tGg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <010f01cd7f3c$2684b8d0$738e2a70$@att.net>

 

 

From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Dave Sill
Subject: Re: [ExI] dolchstosslegende, was: RE: cost of SBSP and thorium

 

On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 5:29 PM, Charlie Stross <charlie.stross at gmail.com>
wrote:

 

>>.That's a naive, unidimensional analysis ("small government" = "right",
"big government" = "left").

 

>.That's not what Spike said, which is:

 

>>>."...the American right wing (conservatives) are very generally aligning
with the libertarians such as the Tea Party, generally favoring smaller
government, with the emphasis on cutting government spending.  The left wing
or (liberals) are proposing more government involvement in the citizens'
lives, or generally favoring more and bigger government, with continued
spending at current levels supported

by higher taxes."

 

>.And that's simply an observation, not an analysis.  -Dave

 

 

Ja, and a generality for sure.  The right has tepidly embraced the Tea
Party, whereas the left has eschewed and insulted us.  The Tea Party sees
both the mainstream parties as far too spendy statist big-government-ish,
and doesn't want to be embraced by either, but the right seems at least a
little closer to our position, a very little.  The two major parties
differentiate themselves on issues that now seem to be completely
irrelevant.  On the issues that really matter, the two major parties became
nearly indistinguishable.

 

This is interesting in many ways.  For about the past 30 years, we have seen
what looks to me like a convergence of the two American mainstream parties
since the mid-90s.  This year, for the first time since I have been a voter
(a tragically long time, alas) I can really tell the difference.  One party
wants to just drive off the debt cliff with little significant change.  The
other wants to drive off the debt cliff with the accelerator pedal to the
floor.

 

spike

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From pharos at gmail.com  Tue Aug 21 06:14:23 2012
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 07:14:23 +0100
Subject: [ExI] dolchstosslegende, was: RE: cost of SBSP and thorium
In-Reply-To: <010f01cd7f3c$2684b8d0$738e2a70$@att.net>
References: <009301cd7e48$853d61f0$8fb825d0$@att.net>
 <AE9DFB7A-7A36-401C-B34E-5B90D485411E@gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2fPSDwyvr=rhvzqXm3E8fegumYMQgP4GK9=3wVtAR9tGg@mail.gmail.com>
 <010f01cd7f3c$2684b8d0$738e2a70$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAL_armi+HE8gNzJh5asg=Ty34NmojaCm=Hg6qWo-1Oh6EPe-WA@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Aug 21, 2012 at 2:27 AM, spike wrote:
> This is interesting in many ways.  For about the past 30 years, we have seen
> what looks to me like a convergence of the two American mainstream parties
> since the mid-90s.  This year, for the first time since I have been a voter
> (a tragically long time, alas) I can really tell the difference.  One party
> wants to just drive off the debt cliff with little significant change.  The
> other wants to drive off the debt cliff with the accelerator pedal to the
> floor.
>


The situation is now so bad that people are suggesting that the US
might as well abolish all taxation and just keep on printing and
spending money. It would make little difference to the deficit.

The deficit is never going to be repaid and it appears impossible now
for the US to cut back to spending only what it collects in taxes.
That's why the Chinese and others are spending their dollars to
purchase real assets in the US and Africa and stuff like gold and rare
earths. Better spend those dollars quick while they are still worth
something.


BillK


From painlord2k at libero.it  Tue Aug 21 12:15:35 2012
From: painlord2k at libero.it (Mirco Romanato)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 14:15:35 +0200
Subject: [ExI] pussy riot case
In-Reply-To: <010101cd7f39$fdee9ff0$f9cbdfd0$@att.net>
References: <001e01cd7e29$741785f0$5c4691d0$@att.net>
 <CAPoR7a7=JAe8au6UrxQBid_-5SF-T5G-PKrsk8WCCF+1DsHjUA@mail.gmail.com>
 <008801cd7e47$2cfb31d0$86f19570$@att.net> <5032009E.90308@libero.it>
 <009b01cd7f11$0116dea0$03449be0$@att.net>
 <CAPoR7a7f3aaYRESJc0Gv3fBqYE3eWz_rc3j+WTY8Vkf1EKxG7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <010101cd7f39$fdee9ff0$f9cbdfd0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <50337BE7.90905@libero.it>

Il 21/08/2012 03:12, spike ha scritto:
> *From:*extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
> [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] *On Behalf Of *Stefano Vaj
> *?*
>
>>?Had it been Dawkins being arrested for stripping naked in the
> Westminster cathedral during a queen-assisted ceremony, I would probably
> react in a stronger way. :-)--Stefano Vaj
>
> Dawkins is god.  If he did the above, I would rally in favor of having
> the queen arrested for voyeurism.

Sorry, I don't believe in acting gods.
As Rothbard argued, an omnipotent god not need to act.

By the way, the two more interesting depictions of gods of the last 
times I saw are:
1) Loki when trashed by Hulk ("puny god")
2) Lilith of True Blood ("I choose you." - "I choose you". - "I choose 
you.")

Mirco



From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Tue Aug 21 12:26:11 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 14:26:11 +0200
Subject: [ExI] cost of SBSP and thorium
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv3DJWhduzJt1_6ygOcF89Hc2BQT0HKzxhx6AVhmQd5e2A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB7EDc+gDaX6ignvKfJENroL1GFcV1PfaV8z8fz=Tm3gKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv3DJWhduzJt1_6ygOcF89Hc2BQT0HKzxhx6AVhmQd5e2A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a7QrhY_9MBHgdFKFLJY8t0vF=BzA-q0qC=T6+fDN4trQw@mail.gmail.com>

On 19 August 2012 17:58, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

> I'm delighted that the long sought goal of getting into space cheaply has
> been found at last and eagerly await you actually launching something,
> being so cheap I don't expect I will need to wait long.
>

I see the irony, but even taking that seriously I suspect that there are
anyway a few details such as scale economies, engineering, funding,
socio-economic inertia... Many things that *would* work, and be cheaper or
more efficient than the alternatives, never get implemented.

There is much faith around in the Market, but markets, same as evolution,
can well get stuck with sub-optimal solutions because there is no
lower-energy path from stage A to stage B. This does not really tell us
anything on whether something would be possible or convenient.

Huge engineering projects NEVER go according to plan
>

Yes. But in most circumstances even failures have large fallouts.

Having said that, I am no especial stance for one recipe or another, also
given that I am very little conversant with the technical and economic
details and I have no patience to educate myself enough on the several
subjects involved.

I am simply biased, for sheer ideological reasons, in favour of high-tech,
large-scale, breakthrough
alleged solutions rather than scraping the bottom of the barrel with
State-sponsored programmes aimed at energy saving or at the incremental
exploitment of diluted, structurally limited and environmentally expensive
"renewable" resources.

Not so biased however to be blind to argument... :-)

--
Stefano Vaj
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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Tue Aug 21 12:39:15 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 14:39:15 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Dawkins last book (was: pussy riot case)
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a7pKT87D2xk0r+VE9m-_aP2XH1kTG_BFxYSC0s5x8cj5g@mail.gmail.com>

On 21 August 2012 03:12, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

> Dawkins is god.  If he did the above, I would rally in favor of having the
> queen arrested for voyeurism.
>

:-)

I happen to have just finished his last book, The Magic of Reality.

Big a fan as a I am, I must say that I was a little disappointed, because
the book goes much in the direction of popularisation of contemporary
scientific worldviews, and takes the pain of explaining concepts that are,
or should, be familiar to anybody with a high-school diploma.

"Should" may of course be the operational word here, but besides the fact
that some of us may be a little older or more culturally refined than his
intended audience, one wonders if this titanic effort to educate the rest
of the people out there has any chance of making a dent, given that most of
that public has probably become illiterate by now, or at least very
unlikely to buy a book of this sort.

But, hey, perhaps it could be adopted by teachers and forced upon its
readers, and as audio book it might have a lower accessibility threshold.

BTW, one think I found quite funny is that after repeating that a number of
subjects cannot be dealt extensively in the book because they are too
complicate for its scope, when Dawkins explains that matter is made of
molecules, and molecules of atoms, and atoms of particles and particles of
quarks, the author conclude: "I am not going to explain the last level more
in detail not because I think you would not understand it, but because *I*
do not understand it, and it is important to be aware of one's
limitations". :-D

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From pharos at gmail.com  Tue Aug 21 12:54:17 2012
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 13:54:17 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Dawkins last book (was: pussy riot case)
In-Reply-To: <CAPoR7a7pKT87D2xk0r+VE9m-_aP2XH1kTG_BFxYSC0s5x8cj5g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPoR7a7pKT87D2xk0r+VE9m-_aP2XH1kTG_BFxYSC0s5x8cj5g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armhRJ=1A_DymW0UDis3uB5ucQ_WyDmfkUC+kmOK_1uz5Kg@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Aug 21, 2012 at 1:39 PM, Stefano Vaj wrote:
> I happen to have just finished his last book, The Magic of Reality.
>
> Big a fan as a I am, I must say that I was a little disappointed, because
> the book goes much in the direction of popularisation of contemporary
> scientific worldviews, and takes the pain of explaining concepts that are,
> or should, be familiar to anybody with a high-school diploma.
>
>

Dawkins says that the book is aimed at children around the age of 12
and upwards to young adults.

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Magic_of_Reality>


BillK


From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Tue Aug 21 12:57:52 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 14:57:52 +0200
Subject: [ExI] dolchstosslegende, was: RE: cost of SBSP and thorium
In-Reply-To: <AE9DFB7A-7A36-401C-B34E-5B90D485411E@gmail.com>
References: <009301cd7e48$853d61f0$8fb825d0$@att.net>
 <AE9DFB7A-7A36-401C-B34E-5B90D485411E@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a5hq2RjfMUqj0dJ5WJtO7LuFXLJNUsFcd=cYTVULgx8YA@mail.gmail.com>

On 19 August 2012 23:29, Charlie Stross <charlie.stross at gmail.com> wrote:

> In fascist ideology, and Nazism in particular, one of the defining
> characteristics of the creed was that the rights of the individual were
> subordinate to the state, especially in respect of the disposition of their
> own body.
>

There is a little oversimplification with regard to the role of the "State"
here. In fact, Italian fascism was (ideologically) much more radical in
this respect, as it is made clear by the adoption of the term of
"totalitarianism" for itself, something that neither the NSDAP, nor the
Soviets, ever did. So, the Carl Schmitt's idea for instance that the party
should be subject to the State, and not the other way around, brought much
criticisms on him during the Third Reich, including the the accusation by
the SS of being a "fascist" (such criticisms quite paradoxically helped him
to defend himself during the denazification period). At the other end of
the spectrum, of course, there was the Bolshevik idea that the State was
just a mean to the ends of the party.

What all those have in common, and probably extends to most
non-totalitarian forms of socialism, is the idea that individualism should
be de-emphasised in favour of other, collective interests and powers.

By converse, individualism certainly used to be considered a left-wing
principle itself, at least for the entire duration of European Ancien
R?gime.

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Tue Aug 21 13:00:06 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 15:00:06 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Dawkins last book (was: pussy riot case)
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armhRJ=1A_DymW0UDis3uB5ucQ_WyDmfkUC+kmOK_1uz5Kg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPoR7a7pKT87D2xk0r+VE9m-_aP2XH1kTG_BFxYSC0s5x8cj5g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armhRJ=1A_DymW0UDis3uB5ucQ_WyDmfkUC+kmOK_1uz5Kg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a78ustqtRLHnsfOtYsHD9F1LJiA7TFsYFY-2d_0Q4O=dA@mail.gmail.com>

On 21 August 2012 14:54, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tue, Aug 21, 2012 at 1:39 PM, Stefano Vaj wrote:
> > I happen to have just finished his last book, The Magic of Reality.
> >
> > Big a fan as a I am, I must say that I was a little disappointed, because
> > the book goes much in the direction of popularisation of contemporary
> > scientific worldviews, and takes the pain of explaining concepts that
> are,
> > or should, be familiar to anybody with a high-school diploma.
>
> Dawkins says that the book is aimed at children around the age of 12
> and upwards to young adults.
>

Yes. And of course if you are older and not an educator, you may find it a
little bland... :-)

My question remains: is a teenager who is not familiar with the concepts
explained in the book likely to read scientific popularisation books at all?

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From pharos at gmail.com  Tue Aug 21 13:22:33 2012
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 14:22:33 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Dawkins last book (was: pussy riot case)
In-Reply-To: <CAPoR7a78ustqtRLHnsfOtYsHD9F1LJiA7TFsYFY-2d_0Q4O=dA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPoR7a7pKT87D2xk0r+VE9m-_aP2XH1kTG_BFxYSC0s5x8cj5g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armhRJ=1A_DymW0UDis3uB5ucQ_WyDmfkUC+kmOK_1uz5Kg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a78ustqtRLHnsfOtYsHD9F1LJiA7TFsYFY-2d_0Q4O=dA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armjW4npNO1COp_qq-eWiNPTgaMHuebgXqy+U39dNOX6mNg@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Aug 21, 2012 at 2:00 PM, Stefano Vaj wrote:
> My question remains: is a teenager who is not familiar with the concepts
> explained in the book likely to read scientific popularisation books at all?
>
>

Apparently it has made an appearance on some bestseller lists, so
*somebody* must be buying it.
It is also available for the iPad, so that might encourage the teens to buy it.

Hopefully if adults are buying it, they pass it along to their teens.  :)

http://richarddawkins.net/articles/643543-bestseller-lists-for-week-of-17-oct-the-magic-of-reality
http://richarddawkins.net/articles/643229-the-magic-of-reality-2-on-the-sunday-tiimes-bestseller-list


BillK


From spike66 at att.net  Tue Aug 21 13:42:37 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 06:42:37 -0700
Subject: [ExI] perps in the school yard,
	was:  RE:  Dawkins last book (was: pussy riot case)
Message-ID: <00b501cd7fa2$d4621680$7d264380$@att.net>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of BillK
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2012 5:54 AM
To: ExI chat list
Subject: Re: [ExI] Dawkins last book (was: pussy riot case)

On Tue, Aug 21, 2012 at 1:39 PM, Stefano Vaj wrote:
> I happen to have just finished his last book, The Magic of Reality.
>
>> ... takes the pain of explaining 
> concepts that are, or should, be familiar to anybody with a high-school
diploma.
>
>

>...Dawkins says that the book is aimed at children around the age of 12 and
upwards to young adults.

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Magic_of_Reality>  BillK
_______________________________________________


Cool I need something like that for my son.  He started first grade
yesterday.

Side note: by sheer coincidence, the cops were chasing couple of car thieves
yesterday morning.  They turned toward the local elementary school, so the
cops discontinued the chase, for fear they would bolt through all those kids
on their first day right at the start time, with parents milling about
everywhere, late kids running around looking for classrooms etc.  Four
minutes after the starting bell, the sleazy perps tried to lose themselves
in the cars *in the parking lot of the elementary school* so the constables
followed the wretches into the lot, twenty guys pulled out their service
revolvers, cuffed 'em and stuffed 'em, while the school did the mandatory
lockdown procedure when any firearm is on the school grounds.

So for a bunch of kids, a firearm lockdown drill was their
welcome-to-academia.  

spike



From spike66 at att.net  Tue Aug 21 13:34:14 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 06:34:14 -0700
Subject: [ExI] dolchstosslegende, was: RE: cost of SBSP and thorium
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armi+HE8gNzJh5asg=Ty34NmojaCm=Hg6qWo-1Oh6EPe-WA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <009301cd7e48$853d61f0$8fb825d0$@att.net>
 <AE9DFB7A-7A36-401C-B34E-5B90D485411E@gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2fPSDwyvr=rhvzqXm3E8fegumYMQgP4GK9=3wVtAR9tGg@mail.gmail.com>
 <010f01cd7f3c$2684b8d0$738e2a70$@att.net>
 <CAL_armi+HE8gNzJh5asg=Ty34NmojaCm=Hg6qWo-1Oh6EPe-WA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00b401cd7fa1$a8430880$f8c91980$@att.net>


>... On Behalf Of BillK
Subject: Re: [ExI] dolchstosslegende, was: RE: cost of SBSP and thorium

On Tue, Aug 21, 2012 at 2:27 AM, spike wrote:
>>... This is interesting in many ways.  For about the past 30 years, we 
> have seen what looks to me like a convergence of the two American 
> mainstream parties since the mid-90s.  This year, for the first time 
> since I have been a voter (a tragically long time, alas) I can really 
> tell the difference.  One party wants to just drive off the debt cliff 
> with little significant change.  The other wants to drive off the debt 
> cliff with the accelerator pedal to the floor.
>


>...The situation is now so bad that people are suggesting that the US might
as well abolish all taxation and just keep on printing and spending money.
It would make little difference to the deficit....The deficit is never going
to be repaid and it appears impossible now for the US to cut back to
spending only what it collects in taxes.  BillK
_______________________________________________


Here's what I find most astonishing.  The current party in power projects
increasing deficit with the resulting runaway debt, with no attempt at
projecting an eventual breakeven.  They offer no hope of long term survival.
The other party is suggesting a plan that does in principle the same thing,
only it takes 50 years instead of 20 before we have sold our country to the
Chinese.  Yet anyone who suggests we need to both raise taxes and cut
spending at least until the deficit is zero (never mind attempting to hack
away at the debt) that person is a Tea Party whacko, a crazy, a radical.  

The Tea Party has been vilified in every way, yet its main message is that
perhaps we really aren't bankrupt yet.  But the solutions are painful.  We
need to call home all troops overseas everywhere, and lay off most of the
ones we currently employ, retire the more expensive weapons systems, end
most government assistance to the poor, stop offering unrealistic
government-funded retirement promises to those currently working, end the
war on drugs, etc.  This was all great fun, but we have run out of other
peoples' money.

All this change is painful of course, but the alternative is worse.  By
saying this, *I* am the one who is labeled the crazy.  Apparently the sane
ones are those who want to continue until it all crashes with such violence
it destroys our economy and others' economies all over the world.

spike



From pharos at gmail.com  Tue Aug 21 14:54:55 2012
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 15:54:55 +0100
Subject: [ExI] dolchstosslegende, was: RE: cost of SBSP and thorium
In-Reply-To: <00b401cd7fa1$a8430880$f8c91980$@att.net>
References: <009301cd7e48$853d61f0$8fb825d0$@att.net>
 <AE9DFB7A-7A36-401C-B34E-5B90D485411E@gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2fPSDwyvr=rhvzqXm3E8fegumYMQgP4GK9=3wVtAR9tGg@mail.gmail.com>
 <010f01cd7f3c$2684b8d0$738e2a70$@att.net>
 <CAL_armi+HE8gNzJh5asg=Ty34NmojaCm=Hg6qWo-1Oh6EPe-WA@mail.gmail.com>
 <00b401cd7fa1$a8430880$f8c91980$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAL_armgg=Gq7nx2+V2f_pbvK9oBPwZZ7fGQRi8oocQSJ7UHKtw@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Aug 21, 2012 at 2:34 PM, spike wrote:
> Here's what I find most astonishing.  The current party in power projects
> increasing deficit with the resulting runaway debt, with no attempt at
> projecting an eventual breakeven.  They offer no hope of long term survival.
> The other party is suggesting a plan that does in principle the same thing,
> only it takes 50 years instead of 20 before we have sold our country to the
> Chinese.  Yet anyone who suggests we need to both raise taxes and cut
> spending at least until the deficit is zero (never mind attempting to hack
> away at the debt) that person is a Tea Party whacko, a crazy, a radical.
>
> The Tea Party has been vilified in every way, yet its main message is that
> perhaps we really aren't bankrupt yet.  But the solutions are painful.  We
> need to call home all troops overseas everywhere, and lay off most of the
> ones we currently employ, retire the more expensive weapons systems, end
> most government assistance to the poor, stop offering unrealistic
> government-funded retirement promises to those currently working, end the
> war on drugs, etc.  This was all great fun, but we have run out of other
> peoples' money.
>
> All this change is painful of course, but the alternative is worse.  By
> saying this, *I* am the one who is labeled the crazy.  Apparently the sane
> ones are those who want to continue until it all crashes with such violence
> it destroys our economy and others' economies all over the world.
>
>

You're outvoted, Spike.

<http://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2012/08/15/165-million-americans-are-dependents-of-the-state-is-tyranny-next/>

New research from Ranking Member of the Senate Budget Committee Jeff
Sessions (R-AL) reveals that this reality may already be here, with
more than 107 million Americans on some form of means-tested
government welfare.

Add to that 46 million seniors collecting Medicare (subtracting out
about 10 million on Supplemental Security Income, Medicaid, and other
senior-eligible programs already included in Sessions? means-tested
chart) and 22 million government employees at the federal, state, and
local level ? and suddenly, over 165 million people, a clear majority
of the 308 million Americans counted by the U.S. Census Bureau in
2010, are at least partially dependents of the state.
-----------------------

So who were you calling Socialist again?   :)

The article is saying that so many people in the US are on benefits
that the majority will vote against any cuts to those benefits. In
theory, he is probably correct. But majority voting isn't the way the
US is run. It is the top 0.1% that decides what happens, not the
voters. The benefits system is only to keep the population quiescent
while the rulers loot the country. The Tea Party needs to take back
the country from those who have stolen it.


BillK



From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Tue Aug 21 14:57:28 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 16:57:28 +0200
Subject: [ExI] dolchstosslegende, was: RE: cost of SBSP and thorium
In-Reply-To: <00b401cd7fa1$a8430880$f8c91980$@att.net>
References: <009301cd7e48$853d61f0$8fb825d0$@att.net>
 <AE9DFB7A-7A36-401C-B34E-5B90D485411E@gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2fPSDwyvr=rhvzqXm3E8fegumYMQgP4GK9=3wVtAR9tGg@mail.gmail.com>
 <010f01cd7f3c$2684b8d0$738e2a70$@att.net>
 <CAL_armi+HE8gNzJh5asg=Ty34NmojaCm=Hg6qWo-1Oh6EPe-WA@mail.gmail.com>
 <00b401cd7fa1$a8430880$f8c91980$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a6JV=7Apv=dSCBkeKRD4+QHu7-9P1_OcvYEJhZqxSYwmQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 21 August 2012 15:34, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> The Tea Party has been vilified in every way, yet its main message is that
> perhaps we really aren't bankrupt yet.  But the solutions are painful.  We
> need to call home all troops overseas everywhere, and lay off most of the
> ones we currently employ, retire the more expensive weapons systems, end
> most government assistance to the poor, stop offering unrealistic
> government-funded retirement promises to those currently working, end the
> war on drugs, etc.  This was all great fun, but we have run out of other
> peoples' money.

I should read more about the Tea Party, because I had no idea they
were taking such radical stances.

But, just to get to the angle which is the most pertinent to the list:
what do they propose to do with research programmes?

Because, all in all, I still believe that most of anybody's chances
lie with the fact that things do *not* remain as they are from a
technological point of view...

--
Stefano Vaj


From dan_ust at yahoo.com  Tue Aug 21 17:30:16 2012
From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan Ust)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 13:30:16 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Aphids harvest sunlight?
Message-ID: <CB2B9E5F-DFAB-410A-9837-1467C4CB25C4@yahoo.com>

http://www.nature.com/news/photosynthesis-like-process-found-in-insects-1.11214

Regards,

Dan
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From mrjones2020 at gmail.com  Tue Aug 21 20:23:11 2012
From: mrjones2020 at gmail.com (J.R. Jones)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 16:23:11 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Dreams...
In-Reply-To: <00e201cd7ed5$b42a3050$1c7e90f0$@vreedom.de>
References: <CAGSKFy0HGiJ79PJbfTFEej+UUQ3S_y7FH4CuUB0mU5awpm5A7w@mail.gmail.com>
 <00e201cd7ed5$b42a3050$1c7e90f0$@vreedom.de>
Message-ID: <CADDVf2JgjomV1RQtVT36gq76CppE9j00WzKqXEJZhNhfS+4qcw@mail.gmail.com>

On Aug 20, 2012 9:15 AM, <sm at vreedom.de> wrote:
>
>
>
> Yes, I did. Successfully.

I have as well. It's amazing, to put it mildly.

Also wrote a SF-novel about technically induced lucid dreaming.

Link?

Best full immersion VR-machine available at the moment :)

Absolutely.

>
>
>
> Stephan
>
>
>
>
>
> Von: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:
extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] Im Auftrag von John Grigg
> Gesendet: Montag, 20. August 2012 11:27
> An: ExI chat list
> Betreff: [ExI] Dreams...
>
>
>
> My question for the list is just how "transhumanist" are your dreams?  My
own tend to feel like low-budget indie films, where I don't get the girl,
and nothing very futuristic happens.  The last dream I had that I remember
well, had me running around in a Prince of Persia style place (I've never
played the games or seen the film), where at one point I jumped and fell
around 100 feet, and to my surprise (in the dream) was not hurt.  As things
progressed I met a very beautiful woman in a sort of a tasteful I Dream of
Genie outfit (I don't have a sexy dental hygienist in my life like Spike
does, so I have to settle for this), who at one point sat in my lap, but
then ran off with a more exciting guy, in a quest to save the day...
>
>
>
>
>
> I had a dream several years ago where I was dressed along the lines
of Robin Hood, relaxing on the grass, and in a retro steampunk city that
made me think of Atlantis.  A parade was going on, with scantily clad women
on floats, that ran in front of an extremely deep man-made body
of absolutely crystal clear water.  Monstrously huge gears and cogs were
submerged inside of it, for some unknown purpose, and people were zipping
around on the surface with strange looking water jet-ski's that didn't seem
to have enough parts to possibly operate.  A New Age female friend listened
carefully as I spoke about the dream, and then declared authoritatively
that I was remembering a previous life that occurred during the age of
Atlantis!  ; )
>
>
>
>
>
> Anyway, I just wondered if some of you had really amazing dreams about
the future, and how much stock if any, you put into them.  And has anyone
ever tried lucid dreaming?  Years ago I spent $300 on a Novadreamer device
to help me to lucid dream, but I could never get the desired effect.
>
>
>
>
>
> John
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From anders at aleph.se  Tue Aug 21 21:19:11 2012
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 23:19:11 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Dreams...
In-Reply-To: <CAGSKFy0HGiJ79PJbfTFEej+UUQ3S_y7FH4CuUB0mU5awpm5A7w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGSKFy0HGiJ79PJbfTFEej+UUQ3S_y7FH4CuUB0mU5awpm5A7w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5033FB4F.8010004@aleph.se>

On 20/08/2012 12:27, John Grigg wrote:
> My question for the list is just how "transhumanist" are your dreams?

Mine tend towards the very surreal, abstract and transhumanist. Mostly 
because that is how the inside of my head is.

> Anyway, I just wondered if some of you had really amazing dreams about 
> the future, and how much stock if any, you put into them.

Well, here is a small excerpt from my "autobiography file", from the 
section "My megalomaniac youth":


I have another childhood memory that I am pretty confident is by now 
far, far away from whatever happened in my young brain.

This was a dream, where a model aeroplane appeared in my bedroom after 
having squeezed under the window. It invited me to jump up on it, and 
together we flew out under the window by briefly becoming 
two-dimensional. Outside was a long dark tunnel, with walls covered with 
world maps. The floor was earthen furrows like a ploughed field. Ahead a 
traffic sign showed up, rocking as if an unseen person was holding it up 
from underground. It stated: "I am an Englishman". Passing the sign we 
saw a tiny planet with a tree and a house. Leaving the plane behind I 
went in. The interior was a single room, perhaps reminiscent of a simple 
farmstead. At the stove stood a person I knew was the Moon. At the 
dinner table was a group of people that I knew were the other planets. 
The Moon brought me to the back of the room where there was a circular 
window. Outside in the darkness I could see another planet -- now a real 
astronomical sphere rather than a personification. The planet was dark, 
but across its surface was a web of light similar to a circuit diagram 
or a vast city. I knew that this was my planet -- either I would be 
going there, or I would /become/ it.

It makes a great piece of personal narrative, doesn't it? Mysterious, 
hinting at some grand destiny, even a hint of hermetic symbolism. In my 
personal narrative it is supposed to have happened in my preschool years.

Picking apart details is not hard. The maps were from the background of 
the television news programs in the 70s. The English sign might have 
been inspired by the knowledge that a family we knew were partially 
English. An interest in space and planets obviously played a part. The 
tiny planet seems borrowed straight from the illustrations of "The 
Little Prince". And the dark planet lights were very similar to the 
lights from the back of a television set in the animated intro to the 
foreign-language children's program I occasionally saw when the Swedish 
children's programs ended. Even the basic plot -- a child brought by a 
strange messenger away to a land of magic and revelation -- is 
ubiquitous in children's stories.

These details make me actually think that I did have that dream at a 
fairly early age: there are no details that I would have learned later. 
Yet the meaning of the dream is clearly up for grabs. What would be a 
fun adventure to a child can be seen as a promise of destiny to a 
teenager. My current take on the dream is that it works pretty well as a 
symbolic motivator: it would be pretty cool if I could somehow make it real.

And, besides, I /did /more or less become an Englishman many years later.


-- 
Anders Sandberg,
Future of Humanity Institute
Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University

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From gsantostasi at gmail.com  Tue Aug 21 21:06:38 2012
From: gsantostasi at gmail.com (Giovanni Santostasi)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 16:06:38 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Dreams...
In-Reply-To: <CAGSKFy0HGiJ79PJbfTFEej+UUQ3S_y7FH4CuUB0mU5awpm5A7w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGSKFy0HGiJ79PJbfTFEej+UUQ3S_y7FH4CuUB0mU5awpm5A7w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL+RtPfs9mW5HrQVKkeS=89nvxGD23TQd84pyEs45qS8frYTbg@mail.gmail.com>

Hi John,
I have a physics background but I have spent the last 2 years working in
data analysis of sleep in 2 world famous laboratories in the field. I'm not
working on dreams so I cannot give much of scholarly input. Instead I study
the sleepless part of sleep called slow wave sleep. During this phase of
sleep the EEG shows large amplitude, slower waves (0.5 -5 Hz), in
comparison with waking waves (in the beta range above 15 Hz to 40 Hz).
These waves are associated with the most restorative part of sleep and
memory consolidation. Right now I'm working on a somehow transhumanist
project that is to develop an automatic system that can recognize the sleep
phases and follow the EEG and then tries to enhance the slow wave sleep by
stimulating the brain with sounds at the right frequency and phase. I'm
using a Phase Locked Loop to actually lock on the brain patterns during
slow wave sleep and then play back to the brain these same patterns to
exploit possible resonances in the relevant neural network.

We have done a pilot study (also testing every day the system on myself to
try many different parameters and set up) and we got an increase of slow
wave power anything in between 20-50 % that is more than what you get with
some of the sedative drugs available.
I hope one day to develop a system that is portable and easy enough to use
that people could actually use it at home with a wireless EEG and smart
phone.
Just wanted to share this with the group, sleep is a cool subject.

Giovanni


On Mon, Aug 20, 2012 at 5:27 AM, John Grigg <possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com>wrote:

> My question for the list is just how "transhumanist" are your dreams?  My
> own tend to feel like low-budget indie films, where I don't get the girl,
> and nothing very futuristic happens.  The last dream I had that I remember
> well, had me running around in a Prince of Persia style place (I've never
> played the games or seen the film), where at one point I jumped and fell
> around 100 feet, and to my surprise (in the dream) was not hurt.  As things
> progressed I met a very beautiful woman in a sort of a tasteful I Dream of
> Genie outfit (I don't have a sexy dental hygienist in my life like Spike
> does, so I have to settle for this), who at one point sat in my lap, but
> then ran off with a more exciting guy, in a quest to save the day...
>
>
> I had a dream several years ago where I was dressed along the lines
> of Robin Hood, relaxing on the grass, and in a retro steampunk city that
> made me think of Atlantis.  A parade was going on, with scantily clad women
> on floats, that ran in front of an extremely deep man-made body
> of absolutely crystal clear water.  Monstrously huge gears and cogs were
> submerged inside of it, for some unknown purpose, and people were zipping
> around on the surface with strange looking water jet-ski's that didn't seem
> to have enough parts to possibly operate.  A New Age female friend listened
> carefully as I spoke about the dream, and then declared authoritatively
> that I was remembering a previous life that occurred during the age of
> Atlantis!  ; )
>
>
> Anyway, I just wondered if some of you had really amazing dreams about the
> future, and how much stock if any, you put into them.  And has anyone ever
> tried lucid dreaming?  Years ago I spent $300 on a Novadreamer device to
> help me to lucid dream, but I could never get the desired effect.
>
>
> John
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From kellycoinguy at gmail.com  Tue Aug 21 21:48:00 2012
From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 15:48:00 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Sleep (was Re:  Dreams...)
Message-ID: <CAPy8Rwb5A9X5LunLhhOAJEYcgK1C=vNWfbqF5-2H_A1GfX-4Tw@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Aug 21, 2012 at 3:06 PM, Giovanni Santostasi
<gsantostasi at gmail.com> wrote:
> I have a physics background but I have spent the last 2 years working in
> data analysis of sleep in 2 world famous laboratories in the field. I'm not
> working on dreams so I cannot give much of scholarly input. Instead I study
> the sleepless part of sleep called slow wave sleep.

> Just wanted to share this with the group, sleep is a cool subject.

One of my earliest transhumanist thoughts was that it would be cool to
no longer need sleep. My reasoning was that sleep "wasted" a full
third of our lives, and wouldn't it be nice if we could somehow
recover that lost time. As a teenager, I announced my bold plan to my
mother. I would shorten each night's sleep by 15 minutes until I
didn't need as much sleep. I thought that somehow by depriving myself
of sleep, I would be able to reach a point where I just didn't need it
as much. The experiment of course failed miserably within two weeks.
:-)

Nevertheless, I have often reflected upon what a fuller life we could
have if the sleep cycle could be shortened or even eliminated. I would
think this would be a common transhumanist desire, but we haven't
discussed it in the time I've been on the list. If there is work being
done on radical life extension, it seems equally valid to research the
shortening of the sleep cycle, as both give you more time, which is
the ultimate transhumanist desire... I would suppose.

-Kelly


From pharos at gmail.com  Tue Aug 21 21:58:19 2012
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 22:58:19 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Sleep (was Re: Dreams...)
In-Reply-To: <CAPy8Rwb5A9X5LunLhhOAJEYcgK1C=vNWfbqF5-2H_A1GfX-4Tw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPy8Rwb5A9X5LunLhhOAJEYcgK1C=vNWfbqF5-2H_A1GfX-4Tw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armiskxJirr1Qph6fUZCD8PFBdaQD=6506yNgpOd2eK12og@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Aug 21, 2012 at 10:48 PM, Kelly Anderson wrote:
> Nevertheless, I have often reflected upon what a fuller life we could
> have if the sleep cycle could be shortened or even eliminated. I would
> think this would be a common transhumanist desire, but we haven't
> discussed it in the time I've been on the list. If there is work being
> done on radical life extension, it seems equally valid to research the
> shortening of the sleep cycle, as both give you more time, which is
> the ultimate transhumanist desire... I would suppose.
>
>

The dangers of sleep deprivation are well known. It is commonly used
as a form of torture.

There was a news item today:
<http://www.kurzweilai.net/cramming-for-a-test-dont-do-it-say-ucla-researchers>


Cramming for a test? Don?t do it, say UCLA researchers
Lack of sleep just makes it worse     August 21, 2012

Sacrificing sleep for extra study time, whether it?s cramming for a
test or plowing through a pile of homework, is actually
counterproductive, they UCLA researchers report.
----------------

Better to just enjoy your sleep.  I look forward to meeting Marilyn
every night.   :)


BillK



From spike66 at att.net  Tue Aug 21 21:57:53 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 14:57:53 -0700
Subject: [ExI] dolchstosslegende, was: RE: cost of SBSP and thorium
In-Reply-To: <CAPoR7a6JV=7Apv=dSCBkeKRD4+QHu7-9P1_OcvYEJhZqxSYwmQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <009301cd7e48$853d61f0$8fb825d0$@att.net>
 <AE9DFB7A-7A36-401C-B34E-5B90D485411E@gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2fPSDwyvr=rhvzqXm3E8fegumYMQgP4GK9=3wVtAR9tGg@mail.gmail.com>
 <010f01cd7f3c$2684b8d0$738e2a70$@att.net>
 <CAL_armi+HE8gNzJh5asg=Ty34NmojaCm=Hg6qWo-1Oh6EPe-WA@mail.gmail.com>
 <00b401cd7fa1$a8430880$f8c91980$@att.net>
 <CAPoR7a6JV=7Apv=dSCBkeKRD4+QHu7-9P1_OcvYEJhZqxSYwmQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00e701cd7fe8$044c1e50$0ce45af0$@att.net>


>... On Behalf Of Stefano Vaj
Subject: Re: [ExI] dolchstosslegende, was: RE: cost of SBSP and thorium

On 21 August 2012 15:34, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>>... The Tea Party has been vilified in every way, yet its main message is 
> that perhaps we really aren't bankrupt yet.  But the solutions are 
> painful.  We need to call home all troops overseas everywhere, and lay 
> off most of the ones we currently employ, retire the more expensive 
> weapons systems, end most government assistance to the poor, stop 
> offering unrealistic government-funded retirement promises to those 
> currently working, end the war on drugs, etc.  This was all great fun, 
> but we have run out of other peoples' money.

>...I should read more about the Tea Party, because I had no idea they were
taking such radical stances...

Stefano, most Tea Partiers probably don't make such radical stances.  But it
is clear enough to me and to those with any math skills what needs to
happen.  The numbers are available.  The fundamental principle of the Tea
Party is found in its name, which is derived from Taxed Enough Already.  It
is based on the idea that the US government cannot balance its budget by
increasing taxes, but must get there primarily by cutting spending.
Increasing taxes does not necessarily increase revenue, and may decrease
revenue, as California has demonstrated.

>...But, just to get to the angle which is the most pertinent to the list:
what do they propose to do with research programmes?

That's the bad news.  As far as I can see, those will need to be cut back
too, along with everything else.  The best stuff and that which has actual
monetary return will still be funded, even if not by the government.  But I
can see it coming as clearly as the sunrise: like it or not, everything will
need to take at least a partial cut, everything, defense, welfare, research,
education, everything.  We have no choice in this.  We can do it now
voluntarily and in an orderly fashion, or wait, and let it be horribly
destructive chaos.

>...Because, all in all, I still believe that most of anybody's chances lie
with the fact that things do *not* remain as they are from a technological
point of view... -- Stefano Vaj
_______________________________________________

Indeed.  

spike



From kellycoinguy at gmail.com  Tue Aug 21 22:13:22 2012
From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 16:13:22 -0600
Subject: [ExI] pussy riot case
In-Reply-To: <CAPoR7a6jsL5Ci9kU1whfoSukjT7Kd5O3_jGhDbfDXg00fkwi5A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <001e01cd7e29$741785f0$5c4691d0$@att.net>
 <CAPoR7a7=JAe8au6UrxQBid_-5SF-T5G-PKrsk8WCCF+1DsHjUA@mail.gmail.com>
 <008801cd7e47$2cfb31d0$86f19570$@att.net>
 <CAPoR7a5-hiShzyP169xLrQQgFJQ5ienC2zd38WnVOAUdsdozDg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPy8RwaJiWCdJnm3nW_dUQn_TtuTPhPggpBqS+BkACGdmW6qsA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a6jsL5Ci9kU1whfoSukjT7Kd5O3_jGhDbfDXg00fkwi5A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPy8RwbJckO8P5oDKCbhpY-ELxdro+PKxxnhMEGt--cNqOv_ZA@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Aug 20, 2012 at 6:41 PM, Stefano Vaj <stefano.vaj at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 20 August 2012 23:29, Kelly Anderson <kellycoinguy at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I have not been personally exposed by Wikileaks. I think Assange is a
>> prick.
>
> OK, I stand corrected. There is at least one of us who thinks like you. :-)

I love being the outlier. I am somewhat surprised that there isn't
anyone else here who thinks he is dangerous or irresponsible.

> With regard to his "irresponsibility", I accept the idea that some leaks
> might be consider as "treason", after a fashion, from the point of view of
> those who thought to be entitled to expect some loyalty from the leakers.

Army Pfc. Bradley Manning swore an oath to protect his countries
secrets, then violated that oath. That's a little stronger expectation
of loyalty than "some"...

> But at the same time, those same people not only routinely expose their
> enemies, but sometimes even set a price on their heads. Isn't that "playing
> with their lives"?

Assange himself is not guilty of treason in the sense that he has not
personally committed an offense against the country of his birth.
Nevertheless, he is guilty of promoting and enabling treason.
Similarly, while the people who founded AshleyMadison.com aren't
themselves guilty of adultery, they have certainly promoted and
enabled adultery.

He may be free under US law as I understand it to do what he is doing.
I hope so. But with freedom comes a certain amount of responsibility.
He has not exercised that, IMHO.

The charge against Assange isn't so much "playing with people's
lives", but making all of civilization less safe by outing secrets
that might well be more safely kept behind closed doors. I've heard
his counter argument, and I simply disagree. As you know, I have
serious doubts about the good intentions of governments as a system,
and would love to take them all down a notch or two... I just think
Assange is taking the wrong approach to doing that. I think I actually
agree with his goals.

> You can of course make a difference between the two positions, but this
> strictly depends on the side you are taking in the relevant dispute. And I
> am not aware that Assange owes any especial loyalty to either party.

I don't have sides. But if privacy is guaranteed to individuals, then
why not to some extent extend the same privilege to corporations and
to governments. I guess it already is. Assange clearly has balls the
size of Godzilla, and he was creative and courageous to create such a
dumping ground for the world's secrets. But it is also very clear that
he has ruined at least one life so far, that of Army Pfc. Bradley
Manning. If he hasn't damaged another single person, he clearly stands
partially responsible for the ruination of that young man's future.
And I can't support him if only for that one example.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2012/aug/19/assange-witch-hunt-release-manning
I find it humorous that Ecuador is providing cover for this guy. I
wonder what would happen if someone dumped a bunch of Ecuadorian
secrets on wikileaks what would happen. Perhaps there is an unofficial
agreement that as long as they protect Assange, they won't have their
secrets revealed.. LOL.

-Kelly


From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Tue Aug 21 22:42:15 2012
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 15:42:15 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Rocket rant
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB6tRKaE1C7xo43ZdUgOH4uxQEZxgbsudbeCTRvZLOU5gA@mail.gmail.com>

(Tagged on a discussion of spending less than NASA for space craft)

Unfortunately, I don't think any chemical only rocket can get the cost
to GEO down to where power satellites make sense.  Only 1.3% of a
Falcon Heavy makes it to GEO (19 tons out of 1440).  Skylon, because
it burns air a quarter of the way to orbit, gets 6 tons out of 300 to
GEO (2%)

At high traffic rates, Falcon Heavy might get down to $1000/kg and
Skylon to $350/kg.  I can imagine 3 Skylon takeoffs per hour.  I
cannot imagine launching 3 Falcon Heavy per hour.  If power sats must
have $100/kg to make economic sense, then neither one of them will do
it.

However, using laser-heated hydrogen, a 125-ton Skylon variation can
deliver 25-30 tons to LEO and 18 tons to GEO.  That's 15%.  Cost is
less than doubled by the investment in lasers while payload fraction
goes up by 7-8 times.

The front-end investment is over $100 B; it makes power plants cheap
enough to sell the power at 1-2 cents per kWh.  The demand is
certainly there at $1.6 B/GW, 1/5th the cost of a GW nuclear plant.
Demand at such a low cost would permit very rapid growth, to one or
two TW/year.  At that rate, power sats would end human dependence on
oil and coal within two decades from the start.

Keith


From gsantostasi at gmail.com  Tue Aug 21 22:35:31 2012
From: gsantostasi at gmail.com (Giovanni Santostasi)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 17:35:31 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Sleep (was Re: Dreams...)
In-Reply-To: <CAPy8Rwb5A9X5LunLhhOAJEYcgK1C=vNWfbqF5-2H_A1GfX-4Tw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPy8Rwb5A9X5LunLhhOAJEYcgK1C=vNWfbqF5-2H_A1GfX-4Tw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL+RtPcXE6UgRRoWHX7yAQb4Wo8+1_cpqqLEq-493nSeAkHfgw@mail.gmail.com>

Actually slow wave sleep is pretty useful. It does a lot of interesting
things. One is dealing with synaptic homeostasis. As you learn during the
day a lot of new synapses are created to store information in a physical
form. But the brain does this initially in a indiscriminate form without
prioritizing about what is important to remember and what is not. But this
is very inefficient in terms or resources utilization. The brain is really
very dense as organic substance, there is really little space between
neurons and between neural connections, it is a packed space. So real
estate is precious in the brain and decisions need to be made about what
needs to be kept and what needs to be thrown away (like the memory of your
ex).

Also while the brain is very good in minimizing energy consumption more
connections can be very energetically wasteful. So the brain has a simple
algorithm that is if a particular neural pathway corresponding with a
particular information or execution of a task was repeated many times or if
it was a very strong and loud signal there is a chance it was important. So
to consolidate this memory the brain activates repeatedly that particular
neural pathway during slow wave sleep and at the same time it gets rid of
the unused pathways in this way renormalizing the system and increasing
signal to noise ratio. It is a process similar to memory defragmentation in
computers (that is usually done in the computer downtime, a sort of
computer sleep).

Also slow wave sleep seems associated with other regulatory process. People
that had their slow wave sleep suppressed for several days showed for
example very elevated insulin levels becoming effectively temporary
diabetics. There is even a connection between slow wave sleep and
anti-aging effects.

Of course as we hack the body we could make these processes more effective
and therefore we could reduce for example the time we spend sleeping. That
is part of my effort with inducing slow wave sleep, we are testing the idea
that by producing more slow waves in the early night period
whatever utility process the slow waves address can be done more
effectively (you do see an exponential decrease of slow wave in natural
setting as they do what they are supposed to do, so it is a matter of
making the exponential decay faster) so requiring maybe less sleep over
all.

Also we are investigating the idea of presenting information during slow
wave sleep and see if this helps with the consolidation of memory. A paper
from my group just showed that you can learn better a melody you were
learning during the day when it is presented again during slow wave sleep:

http://www.northwestern.edu/newscenter/stories/2012/06/memories-reactivated-in-sleep.html


The brain is not dead or inactive while you sleep. I find it exciting that
now I can actually try to control what my brain does at night while I'm not
conscious using a Brain Computer Interface I wrote.

Next step is to maybe update memories while in suspended animation if I
ever go to that point before SENS-like technology becomes reality (kidding
on this one but why not?)
Giovanni







On Tue, Aug 21, 2012 at 4:48 PM, Kelly Anderson <kellycoinguy at gmail.com>wrote:

> On Tue, Aug 21, 2012 at 3:06 PM, Giovanni Santostasi
> <gsantostasi at gmail.com> wrote:
> > I have a physics background but I have spent the last 2 years working in
> > data analysis of sleep in 2 world famous laboratories in the field. I'm
> not
> > working on dreams so I cannot give much of scholarly input. Instead I
> study
> > the sleepless part of sleep called slow wave sleep.
>
> > Just wanted to share this with the group, sleep is a cool subject.
>
> One of my earliest transhumanist thoughts was that it would be cool to
> no longer need sleep. My reasoning was that sleep "wasted" a full
> third of our lives, and wouldn't it be nice if we could somehow
> recover that lost time. As a teenager, I announced my bold plan to my
> mother. I would shorten each night's sleep by 15 minutes until I
> didn't need as much sleep. I thought that somehow by depriving myself
> of sleep, I would be able to reach a point where I just didn't need it
> as much. The experiment of course failed miserably within two weeks.
> :-)
>
> Nevertheless, I have often reflected upon what a fuller life we could
> have if the sleep cycle could be shortened or even eliminated. I would
> think this would be a common transhumanist desire, but we haven't
> discussed it in the time I've been on the list. If there is work being
> done on radical life extension, it seems equally valid to research the
> shortening of the sleep cycle, as both give you more time, which is
> the ultimate transhumanist desire... I would suppose.
>
> -Kelly
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike66 at att.net  Wed Aug 22 03:18:09 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 20:18:09 -0700
Subject: [ExI] pussy riot case
In-Reply-To: <CAPy8RwbJckO8P5oDKCbhpY-ELxdro+PKxxnhMEGt--cNqOv_ZA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <001e01cd7e29$741785f0$5c4691d0$@att.net>
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Message-ID: <015a01cd8014$c1f93b50$45ebb1f0$@att.net>


>... On Behalf Of Kelly Anderson
...

>...Army Pfc. Bradley Manning swore an oath to protect his countries
secrets, then violated that oath. That's a little stronger expectation of
loyalty than "some"...

JA!

> ...he has ruined at least one life so far, that of Army Pfc. Bradley
Manning...  -Kelly
_______________________________________________

NEIN!

It was Army Pfc Bradley Manning who ruined the life of Army Pfc. Bradley
Manning.  He screwed up, he paid the price, and will continue to pay.  That
being said, he didn't actually spill classified information, for if it is
classified, it wouldn't have been on any network which had a USB port.  He
spilled a ton of sensitive information for sure.

I recognize that Julian has done a mixture of harm and benefit, good call on
that.  If he is a difficult sort, all the usual comments about him,
megalomaniac, etc, I don't care about that either way.  He was never a buddy
of mine.  But Private Manning deserves the punishment: the military is a
special case.

spike



From sm at vreedom.de  Wed Aug 22 07:17:58 2012
From: sm at vreedom.de (sm at vreedom.de)
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 08:17:58 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Dreams...
In-Reply-To: <CADDVf2JgjomV1RQtVT36gq76CppE9j00WzKqXEJZhNhfS+4qcw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGSKFy0HGiJ79PJbfTFEej+UUQ3S_y7FH4CuUB0mU5awpm5A7w@mail.gmail.com>
 <00e201cd7ed5$b42a3050$1c7e90f0$@vreedom.de>
 <CADDVf2JgjomV1RQtVT36gq76CppE9j00WzKqXEJZhNhfS+4qcw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <006801cd8036$42f0d080$c8d27180$@vreedom.de>

>>Also wrote a SF-novel about technically induced lucid dreaming.

>Link? 

It's DragonBytes:

http://www.vreedom.com/autor.html

But it's in German . . .

Stephan

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From anders at aleph.se  Wed Aug 22 08:05:33 2012
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 10:05:33 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Sleep (was Re:  Dreams...)
In-Reply-To: <CAPy8Rwb5A9X5LunLhhOAJEYcgK1C=vNWfbqF5-2H_A1GfX-4Tw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPy8Rwb5A9X5LunLhhOAJEYcgK1C=vNWfbqF5-2H_A1GfX-4Tw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <503492CD.3040709@aleph.se>

On 21/08/2012 23:48, Kelly Anderson wrote:
> Nevertheless, I have often reflected upon what a fuller life we could 
> have if the sleep cycle could be shortened or even eliminated. I would 
> think this would be a common transhumanist desire, but we haven't 
> discussed it in the time I've been on the list.

I remember often thinking "Why do I have to sleep? What if I could avoid 
it?" when involved in interesting late night projects. But also "If I 
could get away with it, why not always sleep?" when having to get up in 
the morning.

The answer to the second question is that sleep is private: whatever I 
achieve in my dreams will remain just there, while real world 
achievements will be shareable with others.

In the end I wrote a paper on sleep enhancement.
http://www.fhi.ox.ac.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0014/5135/Sandberg_and_Ravelingien,_Sleep_better_than_medicine.pdf
Basically I argued that sleep itself has little hedonic value: it is 
going to sleep and waking up well that are pleasurable. So if we could 
have a brief pleasant going to bed, compressed sleep (doing all 
necessary biological and software updating, with perhaps the creative 
content of dreams) and then waking up rested it would save lot of time 
and be very useful. But real enhancements are unlikely to be that good 
for a long time. The real ethical troubles lie in that sleep is 
something that is part of the time coordination across society: we have 
a lot of views on each other's habits. This might lead to pressures to 
sleep or being awake in ways that conform to others rather than our own 
autonomous desires.

But I am in favor of developing ways of sleeping more efficiently 
(current drugs don't really help) and staying awake better. The ethics 
issues in the paper can be dealt with: ethics is not the end of the 
discussion, it is just something that has to be solved socially.

-- 
Anders Sandberg,
Future of Humanity Institute
Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University



From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Wed Aug 22 11:51:32 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 13:51:32 +0200
Subject: [ExI] pussy riot case
In-Reply-To: <CAPy8RwbJckO8P5oDKCbhpY-ELxdro+PKxxnhMEGt--cNqOv_ZA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <001e01cd7e29$741785f0$5c4691d0$@att.net>
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Message-ID: <CAPoR7a6e2y9Z+Or83nGdFe0UHARiiK5FasVBFfmKzG1QAYS1bQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 22 August 2012 00:13, Kelly Anderson <kellycoinguy at gmail.com> wrote:

> But if privacy is guaranteed to individuals, then
> why not to some extent extend the same privilege to corporations and
> to governments.
>

This is a matter of debate between Eugen and me.

While I am decidedly in favour of allowing, promoting, fighting prohibition
against, any measure allowing individuals (and for that matter anything) to
protect their secrets, from encryption to anonimising tools to freenets to
anti-spyware programs, etc., I am wary of the so-called "legal" protection
of privacy, because most of its practical effect is to ensure a *monopoly"
of snooping and personal data processing in favour of public agencies (not
to mention corporations), to increase social control, and to expose most
individuals (and some corporations) to blackmail related to inevitable
breaches.

Not to mention the fact that with technological progress the social and
economic cost pertaining to any realistic enforcement of such rules is
going to balloon, and that the relevant resources are going to be
subtracted from other programmes even in a best case scenario.

So, I am inclined to believe that the world depicted in Bob Shaw's Other
Days, Other Eyes or in The Light of Other Days by Arthur C Clarke and
Stephen Baxter is not really the most nightmarish future we should be
concerned of. After all, 99% of the people during 99% of the history of
human societies, rulers included, did not enjoy any especial privacy unless
they went to substantial pains to ensure it, and we have no reason to
believe that the different state of thing which concerned the western urban
crowds for the last two or three centuries is any law of nature...

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Wed Aug 22 11:26:48 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 13:26:48 +0200
Subject: [ExI] dolchstosslegende, was: RE: cost of SBSP and thorium
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armgg=Gq7nx2+V2f_pbvK9oBPwZZ7fGQRi8oocQSJ7UHKtw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <009301cd7e48$853d61f0$8fb825d0$@att.net>
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Message-ID: <CAPoR7a6jArEm_tCysMX2ctO2zRYOFdsMgh2izwDdJ2HTWWSk0Q@mail.gmail.com>

On 21 August 2012 16:54, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:
> Add to that 46 million seniors collecting Medicare (subtracting out
> about 10 million on Supplemental Security Income, Medicaid, and other
> senior-eligible programs already included in Sessions? means-tested
> chart) and 22 million government employees at the federal, state, and
> local level ? and suddenly, over 165 million people, a clear majority
> of the 308 million Americans counted by the U.S. Census Bureau in
> 2010, are at least partially dependents of the state.

I suspect that if they are interested in the vaguest chance of going on
with that for any length of time, they should be quite in favour of cutting
programmes such as military parties abroad, if the accounting at
http://costofwar.com is accurate... :-)

My concern is that fundamental reserch and education (let alone things such
as space programmes) might go along down the drain...

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From bbenzai at yahoo.com  Wed Aug 22 12:53:25 2012
From: bbenzai at yahoo.com (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 05:53:25 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] pussy riot case
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1345636801.22931.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <1345640005.18702.YahooMailClassic@web114402.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

Kelly Anderson <kellycoinguy at gmail.com> wrote:

> Army Pfc. Bradley Manning swore an oath to protect his countries
> secrets, then violated that oath. That's a little stronger expectation
> of loyalty than "some"...

Do you think an oath, once sworn, must be binding under *all circumstances*, including a change in the perceived nature of the entity the oath was sworn to?

In other words, do you think that divorce, for example, should never be allowed under any circumstances?  That there is never a moral obligation to violate an oath under any circumstances, even if you find that the oath would lead you to do evil things?

I don't know about you, but in my book, conscience trumps oaths, which are after all just verbal contracts dressed up in fancy language, usually with threats attached.  The word 'inviolate' only actually applies to the laws of physics, not of man, and people always make cost-benefit decisions about the things they do, even things like breaching solemn promises.

If Bradley Manning violated his oath, he thought it was the Right Thing To Do, at least at the time.


> "secrets that might well be more safely kept behind closed doors"

The problem (well, /a/ problem, anyway) with this concept is that someone has to do the deciding about what these secrets are.  And who decides who that is?  And who decides who /that/ is, and ...

Who are governments supposed to be the servants of, again?


Ben Zaiboc



From sm at vreedom.de  Wed Aug 22 13:43:07 2012
From: sm at vreedom.de (sm at vreedom.de)
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 14:43:07 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Dreams...
In-Reply-To: <CAL+RtPfs9mW5HrQVKkeS=89nvxGD23TQd84pyEs45qS8frYTbg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGSKFy0HGiJ79PJbfTFEej+UUQ3S_y7FH4CuUB0mU5awpm5A7w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL+RtPfs9mW5HrQVKkeS=89nvxGD23TQd84pyEs45qS8frYTbg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00fe01cd806c$10eaf7b0$32c0e710$@vreedom.de>

Giovanni,

 

Right now I'm working on a somehow transhumanist project that is to develop
an automatic system that can recognize the sleep phases and follow the EEG
and then tries to enhance the slow wave sleep by stimulating the brain with
sounds at the right frequency and phase. I'm using a Phase Locked Loop to
actually lock on the brain patterns during slow wave sleep and then play
back to the brain these same patterns to exploit possible resonances in the
relevant neural network.

 

We have done a pilot study (also testing every day the system on myself to
try many different parameters and set up) and we got an increase of slow
wave power anything in between 20-50 % that is more than what you get with
some of the sedative drugs available.

I hope one day to develop a system that is portable and easy enough to use
that people could actually use it at home with a wireless EEG and smart
phone. 

Just wanted to share this with the group, sleep is a cool subject.

 

That's interesting . . . Could be used in principle to get my
"lucid-dream-switch". The starting of lucid dreams also has a distinctive
wave-pattern. 

Links?

 

Best

Stephan

 

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From painlord2k at libero.it  Wed Aug 22 15:11:58 2012
From: painlord2k at libero.it (Mirco Romanato)
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 17:11:58 +0200
Subject: [ExI] pussy riot case
In-Reply-To: <1345640005.18702.YahooMailClassic@web114402.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <1345640005.18702.YahooMailClassic@web114402.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5034F6BE.3010606@libero.it>

Il 22/08/2012 14:53, Ben Zaiboc ha scritto:
> Kelly Anderson <kellycoinguy at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Army Pfc. Bradley Manning swore an oath to protect his countries
>> secrets, then violated that oath. That's a little stronger
>> expectation of loyalty than "some"...

> Do you think an oath, once sworn, must be binding under *all
> circumstances*, including a change in the perceived nature of the
> entity the oath was sworn to?

Who take the oath freely must foresee all consequences and be 
responsible for his choices.
But independently from his oath, Army Pfc. Bradley Manning knew the laws 
and what he risked.

> In other words, do you think that divorce, for example, should never
> be allowed under any circumstances?  That there is never a moral
> obligation to violate an oath under any circumstances, even if you
> find that the oath would lead you to do evil things?

The moral obligation (true or not) doesn't absolves from paying for 
breaking the oath.
So, if you find the marriage too burdensome or you are no more 
"happyyyyy", you can break it, and pay the price.
Now, we could argue about the prices and the circumstances and how 
someone pay a price cheaper than others.

> I don't know about you, but in my book, conscience trumps oaths,
> which are after all just verbal contracts dressed up in fancy
> language, usually with threats attached.

Unfortunately, this only lead to a convenient use of conscience to avoid 
to pay when it is inconvenient.
Just like many women soldiers just happen to become pregnant when they 
need to be deployed. Before they collect the pay, after they find a easy 
way to avoid to earn it.

> If Bradley Manning violated his oath, he thought it was the Right
> Thing To Do, at least at the time.

If he thought it was the right thing to do, he is not entitled to 
lamenting the consequences. Anyone is able to do the right thing when it 
is easy and cost nothing.

(Ales)Sandro Pertini (ex-president of the Republic Of Italy) went in 
jail for 15 years under Mussolini (the real Fascist (TM)). He never 
lamented the time spent there. He obviously would have avoided it, 
because he went inside with black hair and went outside with gray hair. 
About it he told to Oriana Fallaci: "A man of faith cannot escape the 
sacrifices and must pay in person. Otherwise it is not a man of faith."

Mirco


From painlord2k at libero.it  Wed Aug 22 15:50:47 2012
From: painlord2k at libero.it (Mirco Romanato)
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 17:50:47 +0200
Subject: [ExI] pussy riot case
In-Reply-To: <CAPy8RwbJckO8P5oDKCbhpY-ELxdro+PKxxnhMEGt--cNqOv_ZA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <001e01cd7e29$741785f0$5c4691d0$@att.net>
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Message-ID: <5034FFD7.5020801@libero.it>

Il 22/08/2012 00:13, Kelly Anderson ha scritto:

> Assange himself is not guilty of treason in the sense that he has not
> personally committed an offense against the country of his birth.
> Nevertheless, he is guilty of promoting and enabling treason.

The problem of Assange is he is not part of any recognized "Family" or 
government. If he was, he would not be prosecuted or persecuted in this 
way. But governments can not allow the same degree of license to common 
people.

> He may be free under US law as I understand it to do what he is doing.
> I hope so. But with freedom comes a certain amount of responsibility.
> He has not exercised that, IMHO.

My opinion is different.
Assange have no responsibility to the US government.
If the US government believe Assange is an enemy of the US they could 
declare him such and deal with him like they deal with enemy combatants. 
At least they could be honest about it (rare merchandise in this day).

Instead, the US government (and a few others) extend its jurisdiction 
outside the US borders and the US citizens, as they wish.
Assange is an example, Kim Dotcom another and probably there are a lot 
more less famous.
It is not different from what Khomeini did when he declared his fatwa 
against Rushdie, even if Rushdie never when in Iran and never published 
anything in Iran.

> The charge against Assange isn't so much "playing with people's
> lives", but making all of civilization less safe by outing secrets
> that might well be more safely kept behind closed doors.

The point is Assange never had any duty to keep US secrets secret.
He never was subjected to US laws.

If the US want its secret stay secret, I would suggest to select better 
people to guard them. I have no problem with the US government punishing 
Manning (he broke a contract he freely entered).

The "making all of civilization less safe" is simply an opinion. 
Personal and respectable, but have no weight. Probably Assange have a 
different opinion.

> I don't have sides. But if privacy is guaranteed to individuals, then
> why not to some extent extend the same privilege to corporations and
> to governments.

Privacy is a personal right - "let me be alone".
Corporations and governments have not a right to "privacy" because they 
exist to mind others business. Corporations don't want be alone, because 
they want sell stuff and services to others. Government are in the 
business of extortion and regulation someone else lives. They never want 
be alone from you. They want be alone with you.

Mirco




From sparge at gmail.com  Wed Aug 22 16:08:22 2012
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 12:08:22 -0400
Subject: [ExI] dolchstosslegende, was: RE: cost of SBSP and thorium
In-Reply-To: <00e701cd7fe8$044c1e50$0ce45af0$@att.net>
References: <009301cd7e48$853d61f0$8fb825d0$@att.net>
 <AE9DFB7A-7A36-401C-B34E-5B90D485411E@gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2fPSDwyvr=rhvzqXm3E8fegumYMQgP4GK9=3wVtAR9tGg@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAM5aL2fjeWPUwzorVqXk__m80KM9haVfUP19BLfz4=EqV7XXGw@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Aug 21, 2012 at 5:57 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

> We have no choice in this.  We can do it now
> voluntarily and in an orderly fashion, or wait, and let it be horribly
> destructive chaos.
>

Ah, but that *is* a choice. And it's easy to imagine/pretend that the
disaster can/will be averted somehow. And given the choice between
guaranteed, voluntary hardship now and possible future mandatory hardship,
most voters/legislators lack the will to choose the former.

-Dave
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From mbb386 at main.nc.us  Wed Aug 22 16:40:22 2012
From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB)
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 12:40:22 -0400
Subject: [ExI] pussy riot case
In-Reply-To: <5034FFD7.5020801@libero.it>
References: <001e01cd7e29$741785f0$5c4691d0$@att.net>
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Message-ID: <9e9df8a324d2623f3639bb17428d1608.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>


Mirco wrote:
> Privacy is a personal right - "let me be alone".
> Corporations and governments have not a right to "privacy"
> because they
> exist to mind others business. Corporations don't want be
> alone, because
> they want sell stuff and services to others. Government
> are in the
> business of extortion and regulation someone else lives.
> They never want
> be alone from you. They want be alone with you.
>

Thank you for this, it is saved on my computer, it is
excellent. :)  May I share it with a friend? Your name on
it of course.

Regards,
MB



From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Wed Aug 22 17:04:02 2012
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 10:04:02 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Manning and Assange
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB4nJ332OV4qxT2jEpVpWXfgCfH-okJe_C4WJiY_5uB0Vg@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Aug 22, 2012 at 5:00 AM,  "spike" <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

>>... On Behalf Of Kelly Anderson
>
>>...Army Pfc. Bradley Manning swore an oath to protect his countries
> secrets, then violated that oath. That's a little stronger expectation of
> loyalty than "some"...
>
> JA!

It's not that clear cut.  The oath (undertaking) for military service
requires you to obey *lawful* orders.  If a military superior ordered
you to keep quiet about a murder is that a lawful order?  Was the
Baghdad airstrike (known as "Collateral Murder") in that class?

It's worth reviewing http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Calley

And perhaps the Pentagon Papers.  "A 1996 article in The New York
Times said that the Pentagon Papers "demonstrated, among other things,
that the Johnson  Administration had systematically lied, not only to
the public but also to Congress, about a subject of transcendent
national interest and significance".[2] The report was declassified
and publicly released in June 2011"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bradley_Manning#Impact_and_reception

It's not at all obvious that the leaked material actually hurt US long
term interests.  Most of it showed we had sensible people in overseas
locations who were telling the truth about the local situation,
corruption and all.  Keeping that from becoming general knowledge
maintains the status quo with the thugs running some of those
countries.  That may be in the short term interest of the US elites
who have profitable dealings with the thugs, but is it in the long
term interest of of the US?

>> ...he has ruined at least one life so far, that of Army Pfc. Bradley
> Manning...  -Kelly
> _______________________________________________
>
> NEIN!
>
> It was Army Pfc Bradley Manning who ruined the life of Army Pfc. Bradley
> Manning.  He screwed up, he paid the price, and will continue to pay.  That
> being said, he didn't actually spill classified information, for if it is
> classified, it wouldn't have been on any network which had a USB port.  He
> spilled a ton of sensitive information for sure.
>
> I recognize that Julian has done a mixture of harm and benefit, good call on
> that.

It depends on how you feel about transparency.   Unfortunately,
governmental transparency has not done well in recent times.  I guess
you can count on politicians to do the opposite of what they say.

> If he is a difficult sort, all the usual comments about him,
> megalomaniac, etc, I don't care about that either way.

There is a documentary about the 6 months when Conan O'Brian could not
work on TV and did a 30 city road show.

The producer of the documentary commented that the documentary was
really about addiction: Conan's addiction to attention.

He is, of course, damned good at what he does and deserves the
attention.  But the point here is that virtually everything that
humans do is because they are seeking attention or the integral of
attentions, status.  If attention motivates Julian Assange, what do
you expect?  Is that different in any way from what motivates
President Obama?  If so, how?

> He was never a buddy
> of mine.  But Private Manning deserves the punishment: the military is a
> special case.

People, including me, have contributed $650,000 to Manning's defense fund.

In his defense, I would quote recent US political statements about
transparency.  It could be argued that he was carrying out the
politically stated intent for better transparency.

I have mixed feelings about transparency.  It clearly would not work
to be open about the deliberations on killing people and who the
lawyers are who make the decisions (in the president's name) about who
will die this week in drone strikes.  The lawyers would live in
constant fear of their lives.

However, that process has almost eliminated the former prime objection
to propulsion lasers.  If governments (particularly the US) already
have the ability and consider it normal to extra judicially kill
people anywhere, then GW propulsion lasers don't introduce anything
new.

Keith

> spike


From sparge at gmail.com  Wed Aug 22 17:11:54 2012
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 13:11:54 -0400
Subject: [ExI] pussy riot case
In-Reply-To: <CAPy8RwbJckO8P5oDKCbhpY-ELxdro+PKxxnhMEGt--cNqOv_ZA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <001e01cd7e29$741785f0$5c4691d0$@att.net>
 <CAPoR7a7=JAe8au6UrxQBid_-5SF-T5G-PKrsk8WCCF+1DsHjUA@mail.gmail.com>
 <008801cd7e47$2cfb31d0$86f19570$@att.net>
 <CAPoR7a5-hiShzyP169xLrQQgFJQ5ienC2zd38WnVOAUdsdozDg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPy8RwaJiWCdJnm3nW_dUQn_TtuTPhPggpBqS+BkACGdmW6qsA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a6jsL5Ci9kU1whfoSukjT7Kd5O3_jGhDbfDXg00fkwi5A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPy8RwbJckO8P5oDKCbhpY-ELxdro+PKxxnhMEGt--cNqOv_ZA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2eq-KpyH7sdtgr3bpU+dnB4v=gd1OPDtNG_yvuOS54s-g@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Aug 21, 2012 at 6:13 PM, Kelly Anderson <kellycoinguy at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>
> Army Pfc. Bradley Manning swore an oath to protect his countries
> secrets, then violated that oath.


No, he swore an oath to defend the Constitution. Opinions will vary on
whether he violated that oath, but there's little doubt that he broke broke
laws or disobeyed orders.


> Assange himself is not guilty of treason in the sense that he has not
> personally committed an offense against the country of his birth.
> Nevertheless, he is guilty of promoting and enabling treason.
>

Yeah, much in the same way that anyone who isn't Muslim is a heretic in the
eyes of an Islamic government.


> Similarly, while the people who founded AshleyMadison.com aren't
> themselves guilty of adultery, they have certainly promoted and
> enabled adultery.
>

So what? Is promoting or enabling adultery illegal?

The charge against Assange isn't so much "playing with people's
> lives", but making all of civilization less safe by outing secrets
> that might well be more safely kept behind closed doors.


"Making all of civilization less safe" is a bit of a stretch.

But it is also very clear that
> he has ruined at least one life so far, that of Army Pfc. Bradley
> Manning.


No, as Spike correctly pointed out, Manning apparently did what he did
voluntarily and aware of the consequences. You might consider it "ruining
his life", but he might consider it the best thing he could have done.

-Dave
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From atymes at gmail.com  Wed Aug 22 16:31:54 2012
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 09:31:54 -0700
Subject: [ExI] pussy riot case
In-Reply-To: <1345640005.18702.YahooMailClassic@web114402.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.1.1345636801.22931.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <1345640005.18702.YahooMailClassic@web114402.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNTjrOqoAfBWXaD-0uZfeVGSBnncuXoMd-Ectp_psJL6ag@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Aug 22, 2012 at 5:53 AM, Ben Zaiboc <bbenzai at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Kelly Anderson <kellycoinguy at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Army Pfc. Bradley Manning swore an oath to protect his countries
>> secrets, then violated that oath. That's a little stronger expectation
>> of loyalty than "some"...
>
> Do you think an oath, once sworn, must be binding under *all circumstances*, including a change in the perceived nature of the entity the oath was sworn to?
>
> In other words, do you think that divorce, for example, should never be allowed under any circumstances?  That there is never a moral obligation to violate an oath under any circumstances, even if you find that the oath would lead you to do evil things?

A divorce gets filed, officially and formally, thus ending the obligation.
A change such as what you mention can be one reason for a divorce,
but there is still an announced transition from oath-bound to on longer
oath-bound.

There was no equivalent act here.  The guy was still a Pfc.


From painlord2k at libero.it  Wed Aug 22 17:40:22 2012
From: painlord2k at libero.it (Mirco Romanato)
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 19:40:22 +0200
Subject: [ExI] pussy riot case
In-Reply-To: <9e9df8a324d2623f3639bb17428d1608.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
References: <001e01cd7e29$741785f0$5c4691d0$@att.net>
 <CAPoR7a7=JAe8au6UrxQBid_-5SF-T5G-PKrsk8WCCF+1DsHjUA@mail.gmail.com>
 <008801cd7e47$2cfb31d0$86f19570$@att.net>
 <CAPoR7a5-hiShzyP169xLrQQgFJQ5ienC2zd38WnVOAUdsdozDg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPy8RwaJiWCdJnm3nW_dUQn_TtuTPhPggpBqS+BkACGdmW6qsA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a6jsL5Ci9kU1whfoSukjT7Kd5O3_jGhDbfDXg00fkwi5A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPy8RwbJckO8P5oDKCbhpY-ELxdro+PKxxnhMEGt--cNqOv_ZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5034FFD7.5020801@libero.it>
 <9e9df8a324d2623f3639bb17428d1608.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
Message-ID: <50351986.5060906@libero.it>

Il 22/08/2012 18:40, MB ha scritto:
>
> Mirco wrote:
>> Privacy is a personal right - "let me be alone".
>> Corporations and governments have not a right to "privacy"
>> because they
>> exist to mind others business. Corporations don't want be
>> alone, because
>> they want sell stuff and services to others. Government
>> are in the
>> business of extortion and regulation someone else lives.
>> They never want
>> be alone from you. They want be alone with you.
>>
>
> Thank you for this, it is saved on my computer, it is
> excellent. :)  May I share it with a friend? Your name on
> it of course.

It is free to use as in beer AND speech.

Mirco



From johnkclark at gmail.com  Wed Aug 22 17:52:36 2012
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 13:52:36 -0400
Subject: [ExI] dolchstosslegende, was: RE: cost of SBSP and thorium
In-Reply-To: <010f01cd7f3c$2684b8d0$738e2a70$@att.net>
References: <009301cd7e48$853d61f0$8fb825d0$@att.net>
 <AE9DFB7A-7A36-401C-B34E-5B90D485411E@gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2fPSDwyvr=rhvzqXm3E8fegumYMQgP4GK9=3wVtAR9tGg@mail.gmail.com>
 <010f01cd7f3c$2684b8d0$738e2a70$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv2LZe736GFojUe=2h53ALW1WjcpNsNFdnbgB4ffqf3Zyw@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Aug 20, 2012  spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:


> > The right has tepidly embraced the Tea Party,
>

I enthusiastically agree with about 30% of what the Tea Party says, the
problem is that in the other 70% they're not just wrong but crazy wrong,
and the individual Tea Party members are such creeps I'd be embarrassed to
be associated with them

> The Tea Party sees both the mainstream parties as far too spendy statist
> big-government-ish,
>

That's what they say but consider what turned a spending surplus when the
right won the presidency from what they call big spending liberals into a
huge government debt:

1) The Bush tax reductions.
2) Not one but TWO wars, they're never cheap.
3) TARP and the big bank bailout of 2008
4) Expanded Medicare

Paul Ryan, the quintessential Tea Party member, voted for ALL of them, and
Romney damns Obamacare but did almost the exact same thing when he was
governor of Massachusetts.  And I've got to say that right now in the fifth
year of The Great Recession (that started with the Republicans) we have a
lot of serious economic problems but neither inflation nor government debt
is among them, someday that could change but not now.


>   >On the issues that really matter, the two major parties became nearly
> indistinguishable.
>

I actually don't agree, I think there is a clearly distinguishable
difference. Neither comes close to something I could endorse with
enthusiasm but I have come to the conclusion that is never going to happen,
so I am not going to let the perfect stand in the way of the good and
intend to vote for Obama; he just seems a little less medieval,
hypocritical and downright creepy than the alternative. I've voted for the
Libertarian candidate in the past and still like the ideas but I now think
such a vote is pointless.

  John K Clark
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From sparge at gmail.com  Wed Aug 22 18:21:50 2012
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 14:21:50 -0400
Subject: [ExI] dolchstosslegende, was: RE: cost of SBSP and thorium
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv2LZe736GFojUe=2h53ALW1WjcpNsNFdnbgB4ffqf3Zyw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <009301cd7e48$853d61f0$8fb825d0$@att.net>
 <AE9DFB7A-7A36-401C-B34E-5B90D485411E@gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2fPSDwyvr=rhvzqXm3E8fegumYMQgP4GK9=3wVtAR9tGg@mail.gmail.com>
 <010f01cd7f3c$2684b8d0$738e2a70$@att.net>
 <CAJPayv2LZe736GFojUe=2h53ALW1WjcpNsNFdnbgB4ffqf3Zyw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2c6z-dcnf-DKFMiCHvAhzfRt8i0wynBL0ZQr0OeGoXU5g@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Aug 22, 2012 at 1:52 PM, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

> I've voted for the Libertarian candidate in the past and still like the
> ideas but I now think such a vote is pointless.


As opposed to your super meaningful vote for Obama?

No single vote matters in a US presidential election.

-Dave
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From mbb386 at main.nc.us  Wed Aug 22 18:23:51 2012
From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB)
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 14:23:51 -0400
Subject: [ExI] dolchstosslegende, was: RE: cost of SBSP and thorium
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv2LZe736GFojUe=2h53ALW1WjcpNsNFdnbgB4ffqf3Zyw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <009301cd7e48$853d61f0$8fb825d0$@att.net>
 <AE9DFB7A-7A36-401C-B34E-5B90D485411E@gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2fPSDwyvr=rhvzqXm3E8fegumYMQgP4GK9=3wVtAR9tGg@mail.gmail.com>
 <010f01cd7f3c$2684b8d0$738e2a70$@att.net>
 <CAJPayv2LZe736GFojUe=2h53ALW1WjcpNsNFdnbgB4ffqf3Zyw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a4b34515690eadd678468041c652ed7e.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>


John Clark wrote:
> I enthusiastically agree with about 30% of what the Tea
> Party says, the
> problem is that in the other 70% they're not just wrong
> but crazy wrong,
> and the individual Tea Party members are such creeps I'd
> be embarrassed to
> be associated with them
>

The truly pathetic part of this is:
substitute Republican or Democrat or even Libertarian for
TeaParty... and there I am. Still.


Regards,
MB



From spike66 at att.net  Wed Aug 22 20:04:37 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 13:04:37 -0700
Subject: [ExI] pussy riot case
In-Reply-To: <1345640005.18702.YahooMailClassic@web114402.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.1.1345636801.22931.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <1345640005.18702.YahooMailClassic@web114402.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <022e01cd80a1$5c187890$144969b0$@att.net>


>... On Behalf Of Ben Zaiboc
...

>...Do you think an oath, once sworn, must be binding under *all
circumstances*, including a change in the perceived nature of the entity the
oath was sworn to?

Ben Zaiboc

_______________________________________________


PFC Manning was still on active duty when he leaked.  The military is a
special case.  Until their hitch is up, no they don't have the legal option
of breaking the oaths that they chose to enter when they volunteered.

spike



From jrd1415 at gmail.com  Wed Aug 22 21:32:55 2012
From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis)
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 14:32:55 -0700
Subject: [ExI] pussy riot case
In-Reply-To: <CAPy8RwbJckO8P5oDKCbhpY-ELxdro+PKxxnhMEGt--cNqOv_ZA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <001e01cd7e29$741785f0$5c4691d0$@att.net>
 <CAPoR7a7=JAe8au6UrxQBid_-5SF-T5G-PKrsk8WCCF+1DsHjUA@mail.gmail.com>
 <008801cd7e47$2cfb31d0$86f19570$@att.net>
 <CAPoR7a5-hiShzyP169xLrQQgFJQ5ienC2zd38WnVOAUdsdozDg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPy8RwaJiWCdJnm3nW_dUQn_TtuTPhPggpBqS+BkACGdmW6qsA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a6jsL5Ci9kU1whfoSukjT7Kd5O3_jGhDbfDXg00fkwi5A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPy8RwbJckO8P5oDKCbhpY-ELxdro+PKxxnhMEGt--cNqOv_ZA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHUTwkM0fRCTStqTp2GHY=BeRpFvgc5zS-AjfsG=Ve+DeXp8Pw@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Aug 21, 2012 at 3:13 PM, Kelly Anderson wrote:

> I love being the outlier. I am somewhat surprised that there isn't
> anyone else here who thinks he is dangerous or irresponsible.

I am having such fun with, am more absolutely captivated by, this
Assange/Wikileaks business.

Sorry to have to come down on the other side of this issue from you
Kelly, but well, it's our fate.

So,... let's get it on.

> Army Pfc. Bradley Manning swore an oath to protect his countries
> secrets, then violated that oath. That's a little stronger expectation
> of loyalty than "some"...

In fact, he swore no such oath.  Rather he swore an oath to protect
and defend the Constitution.  Then he found himself in a rather
difficult situation: caught between his duty to obey orders (note
important detail: ***lawful*** orders), and his duty report criminal
behavior.

He reported the crimes he saw -- Sunni detained by US forces being
turned over to Iraqi forces (Shia) for torture and liquidation -- only
to be told to shut up and go back to work helping to find and turn
over more Sunni detainees.

So he was faced with a seriously nasty choice, join in the
criminality, or,... do something else.  He chose "something else",
which was to blow the whistle on the criminality.

We each have our attitude towards what he did, but in the end it is up
to a jury of his peers to decide the degrees of rightness and
wrongness of his actions.  I would add that in a just world, the US
civilian and military leadership should also stand trial alongside
him, to see whether the "alleged" criminal acts that motivated Manning
to act as he did, were in fact criminal and whether on that basis they
rose to the level of justification for Manning's actions.

Sadly, Manning will not get a civilian trial -- until his case reaches
the Supreme Court --the military will not recuse itself despite the
self-evident fox-henhouse conflict of interest, and the leadership
elite will never stand trial.  Which leads me to the conclusion that
Manning will get the fairest political show trial the military can
conduct, and spend most of his life in prison.

I don' approve, but then, I'm a person of no importance.

> Assange himself is not guilty of treason in the sense that he has not
> personally committed an offense against the country of his birth.

> Nevertheless, he is guilty of promoting and enabling treason.

The assessment of treason turns on the question of whether the US
conduct witnessed in Iraq by Manning was criminal or not.  That's for
a jury to decide.

Now on to Assange.

> He may be free under US law as I understand it to do what he is doing.
> I hope so. But with freedom comes a certain amount of responsibility.
> He has not exercised that, IMHO.
>
> The charge against Assange isn't so much "playing with people's
> lives", but making all of civilization less safe by outing secrets
> that might well be more safely kept behind closed doors. I've heard
> his counter argument, and I simply disagree. As you know, I have
> serious doubts about the good intentions of governments as a system,
> and would love to take them all down a notch or two... I just think
> Assange is taking the wrong approach to doing that. I think I actually
> agree with his goals.

As you state, this is your view.  Fair enough.

My view is that the world is undergoing a paradigm change in the
accessibility, ease of distribution, and problematic confidentiality
of information.  Assuming there is no turning back, then some will
fear the uncertain consequences of this new paradigm, and others will
say "Bring it on, and let the chips fall as they may."  If things work
out for the better, then those who feared the change will have been
proven wrong.  If things go badly, then the radical transparency
advocates will have been proven wrong.


> ... if privacy is guaranteed to individuals, then
> why not to some extent extend the same privilege to corporations and
> to governments.

It appears that privacy for individuals has been cancelled.  But even
if that were not the case, govts in the era of democracy (phony and
corrupt though it may be) conduct the people's business and have no
inherent right to keep the people's business secret from the people.
Certainly, the govt could argue that privacy was necessary for govt
effectiveness, but my experience suggests that leaders seek power and
employ secrecy primarily to maintain or enlarge that power.  This is
both an ancient truth and an ancient evil.  Modernity calls for its
repudiation and disposal.


> Assange clearly has balls the
> size of Godzilla, and he was creative and courageous to create such a
> dumping ground for the world's secrets. But it is also very clear that
> he has ruined at least one life so far, that of Army Pfc. Bradley
> Manning. If he hasn't damaged another single person, he clearly stands
> partially responsible for the ruination of that young man's future.
> And I can't support him if only for that one example.

Classic case of blaming the victims.  Manning and Assange are both
victims of lawless Washington.

Best, Jeff Davis

 "During times of universal deceit, telling the
  truth becomes a revolutionary act."
                  George Orwell


From anders at aleph.se  Wed Aug 22 21:01:10 2012
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 22:01:10 +0100
Subject: [ExI] pussy riot case
In-Reply-To: <022e01cd80a1$5c187890$144969b0$@att.net>
References: <mailman.1.1345636801.22931.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <1345640005.18702.YahooMailClassic@web114402.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
 <022e01cd80a1$5c187890$144969b0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <50354896.30905@aleph.se>

On 22/08/2012 21:04, spike wrote:
> Do you think an oath, once sworn, must be binding under *all
> circumstances*, including a change in the perceived nature of the entity the
> oath was sworn to?
>
> Ben Zaiboc
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> PFC Manning was still on active duty when he leaked.  The military is a
> special case.  Until their hitch is up, no they don't have the legal option
> of breaking the oaths that they chose to enter when they volunteered.

There is an important difference between legal and moral obligations. 
Laws are about what society allows or not, morality is what one ought to 
do.  While we might wish laws to be moral, and might even have a moral 
duty to obey laws that have come about legitimately (see the discussion 
surrounding the trial of Socrates), laws are not in themselves moral. 
There are plenty that are immoral, and some are so immoral that a moral 
person should break them.

Oaths are a bit different. They are speech acts where you state a 
constraint on your future behaviour.  Keeping an oath is a moral act; 
breaking it means you either did not mean it in the first place, that 
you cannot constrain yourself (these two reflecting badly on your 
trustworthiness), or that something more important than your reputation 
and beliefs overruled the oath. But note that an oath in this sense 
cannot be compelled: you cannot demand somebody swear something and mean 
it, it has to be a voluntary decision. Hence oaths sworn in many social 
situations are somewhat suspect, since they might be done for blending 
in rather than being sincere.

The military might have both laws, oaths and moral rules, not to mention 
sizeable social pressure. But these constraints on action are not 
absolute: for any ethical system I know, one can construct cases where 
the right thing to do is to break them. The better the constraints are, 
the more rare such cases would be.

To get back to the thread name, a Russian prosecutor might argue that it 
is important that people follow the laws that have been agreed on by the 
Duma and morally important to respect the Church. But no doubt the punk 
ladies would argue that the government and its laws were not legitimate 
enough to be respected, and by supporting the morally corrupt government 
the Church had also lost its moral protection. The fact that a 
prosecutor can win the case doesn't mean he is right about the moral 
matter. And conversely, being convinced that the government does not 
have moral authority will not protect you from its legal or extralegal 
powers.



-- 
Anders Sandberg,
Future of Humanity Institute
Oxford Martin School
Faculty of Philosophy
Oxford University



From spike66 at att.net  Wed Aug 22 23:03:58 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 16:03:58 -0700
Subject: [ExI] mars panorama
Message-ID: <026801cd80ba$6a59b9f0$3f0d2dd0$@att.net>

 

 

Oh man this is cool:

 

http://www.panoramas.dk/mars/greeley-haven.html

 

spike

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From spike66 at att.net  Wed Aug 22 23:13:30 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 16:13:30 -0700
Subject: [ExI] pussy riot case
In-Reply-To: <CAHUTwkM0fRCTStqTp2GHY=BeRpFvgc5zS-AjfsG=Ve+DeXp8Pw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <001e01cd7e29$741785f0$5c4691d0$@att.net>
 <CAPoR7a7=JAe8au6UrxQBid_-5SF-T5G-PKrsk8WCCF+1DsHjUA@mail.gmail.com>
 <008801cd7e47$2cfb31d0$86f19570$@att.net>
 <CAPoR7a5-hiShzyP169xLrQQgFJQ5ienC2zd38WnVOAUdsdozDg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPy8RwaJiWCdJnm3nW_dUQn_TtuTPhPggpBqS+BkACGdmW6qsA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a6jsL5Ci9kU1whfoSukjT7Kd5O3_jGhDbfDXg00fkwi5A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPy8RwbJckO8P5oDKCbhpY-ELxdro+PKxxnhMEGt--cNqOv_ZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHUTwkM0fRCTStqTp2GHY=BeRpFvgc5zS-AjfsG=Ve+DeXp8Pw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <027c01cd80bb$bf227ac0$3d677040$@att.net>



>... On Behalf Of Jeff Davis
...

>...He reported the crimes he saw -- Sunni detained by US forces being
turned over to Iraqi forces (Shia) for torture and liquidation -- only to be
told to shut up and go back to work helping to find and turn over more Sunni
detainees... Best, Jeff Davis


Jeff I do appreciate you, for I had never heard that part.  What we were
told is that PFC Manning downloaded a bunch of sensitive  diplomatic
information and sent it to WikiLeaks.  It couldn't have been classified
info, if he or anyone was able to put it on a flash drive.  Anyone who put
classified info on that network would be cooked.  I no longer have any
position on PFC Manning, so I will vote present until we see how the case
comes out.  I don't see that Julian did anything illegal from the point of
view of privacy.  Your commentary has caused me to  go from cocksure
ignorance to thoughtful uncertainty.

spike  



From dan_ust at yahoo.com  Wed Aug 22 23:52:50 2012
From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan)
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 16:52:50 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] mars panorama
In-Reply-To: <026801cd80ba$6a59b9f0$3f0d2dd0$@att.net>
References: <026801cd80ba$6a59b9f0$3f0d2dd0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <1345679570.99169.YahooMailNeo@web126206.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

Where are the canals and the ruins of Martian cities? Was I misinformed about all that? :)

Regards,

Dan
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From spike66 at att.net  Thu Aug 23 00:38:45 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 17:38:45 -0700
Subject: [ExI] pussy riot case
References: <001e01cd7e29$741785f0$5c4691d0$@att.net>
 <CAPoR7a7=JAe8au6UrxQBid_-5SF-T5G-PKrsk8WCCF+1DsHjUA@mail.gmail.com>
 <008801cd7e47$2cfb31d0$86f19570$@att.net>
 <CAPoR7a5-hiShzyP169xLrQQgFJQ5ienC2zd38WnVOAUdsdozDg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPy8RwaJiWCdJnm3nW_dUQn_TtuTPhPggpBqS+BkACGdmW6qsA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a6jsL5Ci9kU1whfoSukjT7Kd5O3_jGhDbfDXg00fkwi5A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPy8RwbJckO8P5oDKCbhpY-ELxdro+PKxxnhMEGt--cNqOv_ZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHUTwkM0fRCTStqTp2GHY=BeRpFvgc5zS-AjfsG=Ve+DeXp8Pw@mail.gmail.com> 
Message-ID: <001801cd80c7$a7d8e870$f78ab950$@att.net>



-----Original Message-----
From: spike [mailto:spike66 at att.net] 
...
>... On Behalf Of Jeff Davis
...

>>...He reported the crimes he saw -- Sunni detained by US forces being
turned over to Iraqi forces (Shia) for torture and liquidation -- only to be
told to shut up and go back to work helping to find and turn over more Sunni
detainees... Best, Jeff Davis

>... I no longer have any position on PFC Manning, so I will vote present
until we see how the case comes out...spike  

Hmmm, I can do better than that.  If any soldier witnesses a war crime, she
is morally and legally required to report it.  If her own commander did it,
she must report it above that level.  If PFC Manning is on trial for
reporting a war crime, then I am on his side.

Regarding PFC Manning's charges for leaking diplomatic sensitive material,
he could skate on that because no one who wrote the material would accuse
him.  If the author claims the information was classified, then it wasn't
properly marked as such, and the author is in biiiig trouble for putting
classified info on any system with a USB port, cooked a lot worse than the
person who downloaded it and leaked it.  If the information is unclassified,
there was no crime in downloading and sending.  So the accusers would slink
away like those guys in the book of John chapter 8 verse 1, and you know
what Jesus was getting that night after the hypocrites all left.

spike



From hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu  Thu Aug 23 02:13:53 2012
From: hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu (Henry Rivera)
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 22:13:53 -0400
Subject: [ExI] pussy riot case
Message-ID: <CAMdUVLy47tjgDrDvYTDEhX=LtufBRRMokCFx17s319kq6B0p1g@mail.gmail.com>

(I think this thread definitely needs a name change. Sorry I didn't take
the initiative.)

Manning took a risk knowing the consequences full well. That's on him.I
think he had informed consent, and I've seen no evidence he was coerced or
manipulated.

Assange personifies the worldview of full transparency, information
anarchy, information needs to be freed, the leveling of the playing field,
dethroning people who use an information imbalance to maintain power,
exploit, and oppress others. It sounds like Kelly takes issue with that,
which he is entitled to do. Any persecution of Assange is an attempt to
make an example of him and giving the big middle finger to cracker/hacker
transparency movement. This is personal as far as US intelligence agencies
are concerned, so emotional decisions are being made which is escalating
the situation IMHO.What Assange represents is gaining support as more
people learn about the abuse of power via places like Wikileaks. The
information age is here. There is no turning it back no matter what they do
to Assange.
-Henry
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From hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu  Thu Aug 23 02:32:20 2012
From: hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu (Henry Rivera)
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 22:32:20 -0400
Subject: [ExI] pussy riot case
Message-ID: <CAMdUVLwODNO0-WdhWH8g7iBvfpFCLDTrFUr=UVzvLydnbDbrHA@mail.gmail.com>

One more thing. Spike, I'm pretty sure I read that Manning got the info out
by burning the data on CDs, not on USB drives. I can't speak to the
security level of this information. It's certainly information that the
public was never supposed to see.
-Henry
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From spike66 at att.net  Thu Aug 23 03:29:11 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 20:29:11 -0700
Subject: [ExI] pussy riot case
In-Reply-To: <CAMdUVLwODNO0-WdhWH8g7iBvfpFCLDTrFUr=UVzvLydnbDbrHA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMdUVLwODNO0-WdhWH8g7iBvfpFCLDTrFUr=UVzvLydnbDbrHA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <006301cd80df$772072d0$65615870$@att.net>

 

 

>. On Behalf Of Henry Rivera
Subject: Re: [ExI] pussy riot case

 

>.One more thing. Spike, I'm pretty sure I read that Manning got the info
out by burning the data on CDs, not on USB drives. I can't speak to the
security level of this information. It's certainly information that the
public was never supposed to see.
-Henry

 

 

OK, I was misinformed.  Any computer system I know of which can legally
contain classified info has no CD burners anywhere in the system, nor any
way to connect one.  Those interfaces are intentionally defeated.  The only
way one can get information out is to print it on paper and carry the paper
out the door, perhaps in one's socks or under the clothing, as demonstrated
by former national security advisor Sandy Bergler (see the last three
paragraphs of this:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandy_Berger )

 

spike

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From bbenzai at yahoo.com  Thu Aug 23 08:45:23 2012
From: bbenzai at yahoo.com (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 01:45:23 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] pussy riot case
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1407.1345683147.17650.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <1345711523.80055.YahooMailClassic@web114413.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

"spike" <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

> >... On Behalf Of Ben Zaiboc
> ...
> 
> >...Do you think an oath, once sworn, must be binding
> under *all
> circumstances*, including a change in the perceived nature
> of the entity the
> oath was sworn to?
> 
> Ben Zaiboc
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> 
> PFC Manning was still on active duty when he leaked.?
> The military is a
> special case.? Until their hitch is up, no they don't
> have the legal option
> of breaking the oaths that they chose to enter when they
> volunteered.


I'm not talking about a legal option, though.  I'm talking about doing what you believe is the right thing, morally.  Of course he would have to expect to pay the price for breaking the letter of the law, as other people have noted.

On the other hand, there's a reason that "I was only following orders" is not regarded as a legitimate defence in many legal systems, when someone is accused of committing an atrocity, for example.

I don't think you can unequivocally condemn someone who has sworn a legal oath to obey his superior, and is then ordered to commit, or facilitate, or cover up, an atrocity.  It's called being between a rock and a hard place.

Ben Zaiboc



From bbenzai at yahoo.com  Thu Aug 23 08:47:38 2012
From: bbenzai at yahoo.com (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 01:47:38 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] mars panorama
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1407.1345683147.17650.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <1345711658.21009.YahooMailClassic@web114401.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

Dan <dan_ust at yahoo.com> asked:

> Where are the canals and the ruins of Martian cities? Was I misinformed about all that? :)


What I want to know is, who made all those bootprints?

Couldn't have been Dejah Thoris, she doesn't wear boots.


Ben Zaiboc



From anders at aleph.se  Thu Aug 23 09:52:48 2012
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 10:52:48 +0100
Subject: [ExI] pussy riot case
In-Reply-To: <CAMdUVLy47tjgDrDvYTDEhX=LtufBRRMokCFx17s319kq6B0p1g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMdUVLy47tjgDrDvYTDEhX=LtufBRRMokCFx17s319kq6B0p1g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5035FD70.8030604@aleph.se>

On 23/08/2012 03:13, Henry Rivera wrote:
> Assange personifies the worldview of full transparency, information 
> anarchy, information needs to be freed, the leveling of the playing 
> field, dethroning people who use an information imbalance to maintain 
> power, exploit, and oppress others. ... Any persecution of Assange is 
> an attempt to make an example of him and giving the big middle finger 
> to cracker/hacker transparency movement. 

Aaaaand that is the problem. When choosing a personification, try to 
find one less flawed. Because now valid criticism of his flaws get mixed 
up with criticism of what he stands for. And when the personification 
does stupid things the ideal is also smeared.

Objectivists get stuck with Ayn Rand. Leftists today have to deal with 
Hugo Chavez. Americans elect one president after another.

> This is personal as far as US intelligence agencies are concerned, so 
> emotional decisions are being made which is escalating the situation IMHO.

Nah, when I went to DC a while ago the intelligence people were pretty 
laid-back about it. Leaks happen, global transparency might be around 
the corner ("All our secrets are going to be on a torrent server in 
Kazakhstan, right next to the secrets of our enemies") - but they would 
still have a job. The real rancour against Wikileaks came from the 
diplomacy people. They were upset.

-- 
Anders Sandberg,
Future of Humanity Institute
Oxford Martin School
Faculty of Philosophy
Oxford University

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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Thu Aug 23 09:59:12 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 11:59:12 +0200
Subject: [ExI] pussy riot case
In-Reply-To: <5034F6BE.3010606@libero.it>
References: <1345640005.18702.YahooMailClassic@web114402.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
 <5034F6BE.3010606@libero.it>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a43M=gicEVu5o=qTrEZcageESbVnBE18-b=u8+s3=45ow@mail.gmail.com>

On 22 August 2012 17:11, Mirco Romanato <painlord2k at libero.it> wrote:

> Who take the oath freely must foresee all consequences and be responsible
> for his choices.
> But independently from his oath, Army Pfc. Bradley Manning knew the laws
> and what he risked.
>

I must say that I irrespective of any sympathy I may have for his position,
I fully agree with that.

I can easily imagine a number of circumstances where I would gladly commit
a crime, but this does not allow me to ignore the legal consequences.

 In other words, do you think that divorce, for example, should never
> be allowed under any circumstances?  That there is never a moral
> obligation to violate an oath under any circumstances, even if you
> find that the oath would lead you to do evil things?
>

An oath is an oath is an oath.

Assuming that we are are morally allowed to make unconditional oaths, we
are morally obliged to respect them, and your guilt, if any, originates
from the original oath, not from the compliance therewith - an entirely
different thing is whether the law provides for sanctions and remedies in
the event of a breach, or not (as in the case of a divorce by consent).

We feel like breaching our freely accepted obligations? Fine, but to take
the moral high ground in doing so seems indeed self-indulgent.

Let us just say that you may have economic or political or personal motives
to do so and accordingly you do not care.

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Thu Aug 23 10:06:05 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 12:06:05 +0200
Subject: [ExI] pussy riot case
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNTjrOqoAfBWXaD-0uZfeVGSBnncuXoMd-Ectp_psJL6ag@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1345636801.22931.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <1345640005.18702.YahooMailClassic@web114402.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
 <CALAdGNTjrOqoAfBWXaD-0uZfeVGSBnncuXoMd-Ectp_psJL6ag@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a5Ud22_cTGkAQ+jPxC4fbPNVia1ve1kOp3+tyMimRqd6Q@mail.gmail.com>

On 22 August 2012 18:31, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:

> A divorce gets filed, officially and formally, thus ending the obligation.
> A change such as what you mention can be one reason for a divorce,
> but there is still an announced transition from oath-bound to on longer
> oath-bound.
>

I think we mix up different levels. Under the law in your and my country, a
marriage under the law is a contract which can be terminated by either
party, basically at will, even though the failure to perform your marital
duties before that may involve a liability.

OTOH, many kinds of wedding ceremonies, especially those of a religious
nature, usually involve a personal oath to the other party "for ever, and
ever" (not so under the Shari'a, which allows as well  marriages lasting
from one day to 99 years, AFAIK).

Now, I am far from being a great fan of marriage, be it for straight or gay
people, but Irrespective of the fact that such promise is not legally
enforceable, do we really have doubts that divorcing is a breach of one's
word?

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From gsantostasi at gmail.com  Thu Aug 23 11:59:12 2012
From: gsantostasi at gmail.com (Giovanni Santostasi)
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 06:59:12 -0500
Subject: [ExI] mars panorama
In-Reply-To: <1345711658.21009.YahooMailClassic@web114401.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.1407.1345683147.17650.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <1345711658.21009.YahooMailClassic@web114401.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAL+RtPd59U6iQ3NZh++j8p7Epyn2eKeAdfChs4ySGqps7eGkEA@mail.gmail.com>

So similar to Earth and so different in its absence of life. How lucky we
are that this strange phenomenon just happened on our planet.
Giovanni


On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 3:47 AM, Ben Zaiboc <bbenzai at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Dan <dan_ust at yahoo.com> asked:
>
> > Where are the canals and the ruins of Martian cities? Was I misinformed
> about all that? :)
>
>
> What I want to know is, who made all those bootprints?
>
> Couldn't have been Dejah Thoris, she doesn't wear boots.
>
>
> Ben Zaiboc
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From gsantostasi at gmail.com  Thu Aug 23 12:04:24 2012
From: gsantostasi at gmail.com (Giovanni Santostasi)
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 07:04:24 -0500
Subject: [ExI] mars panorama
In-Reply-To: <CAL+RtPd59U6iQ3NZh++j8p7Epyn2eKeAdfChs4ySGqps7eGkEA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1407.1345683147.17650.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <1345711658.21009.YahooMailClassic@web114401.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
 <CAL+RtPd59U6iQ3NZh++j8p7Epyn2eKeAdfChs4ySGqps7eGkEA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL+RtPfHVpjYV-gOOqUWaRFm5nDA5Vo7tJR0DDUzvYxP5Zx9zg@mail.gmail.com>

This is an enhanced (by a photographer not connected with NASA but that
used NASA publicly available pictures) seen from the Curiosity Rover. I
love the rolling hills.
Giovanni
http://www.jmg-galleries.com/blog_images/mars/mars_curiosity_corrected2.jpg


On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 6:59 AM, Giovanni Santostasi
<gsantostasi at gmail.com>wrote:

> So similar to Earth and so different in its absence of life. How lucky we
> are that this strange phenomenon just happened on our planet.
> Giovanni
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 3:47 AM, Ben Zaiboc <bbenzai at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Dan <dan_ust at yahoo.com> asked:
>>
>> > Where are the canals and the ruins of Martian cities? Was I misinformed
>> about all that? :)
>>
>>
>> What I want to know is, who made all those bootprints?
>>
>> Couldn't have been Dejah Thoris, she doesn't wear boots.
>>
>>
>> Ben Zaiboc
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
>
>
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From spike66 at att.net  Thu Aug 23 13:30:15 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 06:30:15 -0700
Subject: [ExI] pussy riot case
In-Reply-To: <1345711523.80055.YahooMailClassic@web114413.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.1407.1345683147.17650.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <1345711523.80055.YahooMailClassic@web114413.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <006e01cd8133$6e5a76b0$4b0f6410$@att.net>

>... On Behalf Of Ben Zaiboc
Subject: Re: [ExI] pussy riot case

"spike" <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> 
>>... PFC Manning was still on active duty when he leaked. The military is a

> special case.? Until their hitch is up, no they don't have the legal 
> option of breaking the oaths that they chose to enter when they 
> volunteered.  spike


>...I'm not talking about a legal option, though.  I'm talking about doing
what you believe is the right thing, morally.  Of course he would have to
expect to pay the price for breaking the letter of the law, as other people
have noted.

>...On the other hand, there's a reason that "I was only following orders"
is not regarded as a legitimate defence in many legal systems, when someone
is accused of committing an atrocity, for example.

>...I don't think you can unequivocally condemn someone who has sworn a
legal oath to obey his superior, and is then ordered to commit, or
facilitate, or cover up, an atrocity.  It's called being between a rock and
a hard place.  Ben Zaiboc

_______________________________________________

Hi Ben, actually I agree with everything you said here.  In the modern
military, they go to great pains to train soldiers on what are legal order
and what are illegal orders.  If a soldier follows what she knows are
illegal orders, she is in trouble too, along with the commander.  Of course
the officer who issued the orders are in a thousand times more trouble, and
the soldier who followed the illegal orders may get off by testifying at
court martial that she feared the officer could pull out a sidearm and shoot
her on the spot, probably get off that way.  The point is the oath to follow
orders assumes a legal order.

I know personally of an interesting case where an acquaintance's daughter
was a chaplain in Afghanistan.  Apparently (we don't know the full story) a
soldier saw something he thought was illegal that his own commander knew
about, involving illegal orders.  The soldier, not knowing what to do, chose
to report the incident to the chaplain.  The chaplain (who is a first looey)
wrote a report and sent it to the colonel.  Now all hell is breaking loose.
Stand by, the case might come up either in the mainstream press or on Wiki
in the next few months.

spike




From bbenzai at yahoo.com  Thu Aug 23 13:37:35 2012
From: bbenzai at yahoo.com (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 06:37:35 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] pussy riot case
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1345723201.19056.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <1345729055.7226.YahooMailClassic@web114419.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

Stefano Vaj <stefano.vaj at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > Who take the oath freely must foresee all consequences
> and be responsible
> > for his choices.
> > But independently from his oath, Army Pfc. Bradley
> Manning knew the laws
> > and what he risked.
> >
> 
> I must say that I irrespective of any sympathy I may have
> for his position,
> I fully agree with that.
> 
> I can easily imagine a number of circumstances where I would
> gladly commit
> a crime, but this does not allow me to ignore the legal
> consequences.
> 
>  In other words, do you think that divorce, for example,
> should never
> > be allowed under any circumstances?? That there is
> never a moral
> > obligation to violate an oath under any circumstances,
> even if you
> > find that the oath would lead you to do evil things?
> >
> 
> An oath is an oath is an oath.
> 
> Assuming that we are are morally allowed to make
> unconditional oaths, we
> are morally obliged to respect them, and your guilt, if any,
> originates
> from the original oath, not from the compliance therewith -
> an entirely
> different thing is whether the law provides for sanctions
> and remedies in
> the event of a breach, or not (as in the case of a divorce
> by consent).
> 
> We feel like breaching our freely accepted obligations?
> Fine, but to take
> the moral high ground in doing so seems indeed
> self-indulgent.
> 
> Let us just say that you may have economic or political or
> personal motives
> to do so and accordingly you do not care.


This is not my point.  My point is that when the conditions under which an oath is sworn change, the oath can't be logically binding (although it may well still be legally binding).  If someone swears an oath in ignorance of a future state that affects it, they were not in full possession of the relevant facts.  If someone swears an oath to someone in the expectation that they won't commit evil acts, and require you to do the same, but then that expectation is violated, where does the oath stand?

"> Assuming that we are are morally allowed to make
> unconditional oaths, we
> are morally obliged to respect them"

The problem with this is that it's not possible to make an unconditional oath.  The only way this could possibly work would be if the oath actually made someone behave in a certain way against their will (like a magical geas). Oaths, like everything else, are always conditional.  This is a logical necessity.  As I said before, an oath is just a class of promise, or a contract.


Ben Zaiboc



From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Thu Aug 23 16:29:39 2012
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 09:29:39 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Julian Assange
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB7pjHwaxv97Dr683BgWsH46xMnqGnWc2GM__6WvBEKM0g@mail.gmail.com>

By Glenn Greenwald

The bizarre, unhealthy, blinding media contempt for Julian Assange

There are several obvious reasons why Assange provokes such unhinged
media contempt. The most obvious among them is competition: the
resentment generated by watching someone outside their profession
generate more critical scoops in a year than all other media outlets
combined. Professional and ego-based competition produces personal
hatred like nothing else can.

http://www.opednews.com/articles/The-bizarre-unhealthy-bl-by-Glenn-Greenwald-120822-111.html

One of the more amusing attacks I heard on the radio was that, being
an Australian, Julian had to have criminal genetics in his background.

Keith


From jrd1415 at gmail.com  Thu Aug 23 19:37:03 2012
From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis)
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 12:37:03 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The secret history of Pussy Riot
Message-ID: <CAHUTwkMooM2=5K5AJTi2Bh9uvdZUs_FJbS6TFh7caP10W9jAAA@mail.gmail.com>

You've heard the Western version, and you see how the US, wedded to
military Keynesianism and continuing MIC profitability, is trying to
rebrand the former Commie boogieman and thus resurrect the robust and
dependable profit stream from the halcyon days of the cold war.

Here's the other side of the story.

The secret history of Pussy Riot

http://www.counterpunch.org/2012/08/23/the-secret-history-of-pussy-riot/

One note.  I admire Israel Shamir, and generally give him credit for
reality-based commentary.  That said, he comments in the piece that
The US State Dept has funded PR's recently released single, and Shamir
provides a link:

http://articles.latimes.com/2012/aug/17/entertainment/la-et-ms-pussy-riot-new-single-state-department-20120817

I was ready to believe the claim, but I cannot find anything in the LA
Times piece that confirms US State Dept funding.

Best, Jeff Davis

         "Everything's hard till you know how to do it."
                                           Ray Charles


From kellycoinguy at gmail.com  Thu Aug 23 21:24:46 2012
From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 15:24:46 -0600
Subject: [ExI] pussy riot case
In-Reply-To: <015a01cd8014$c1f93b50$45ebb1f0$@att.net>
References: <001e01cd7e29$741785f0$5c4691d0$@att.net>
 <CAPoR7a7=JAe8au6UrxQBid_-5SF-T5G-PKrsk8WCCF+1DsHjUA@mail.gmail.com>
 <008801cd7e47$2cfb31d0$86f19570$@att.net>
 <CAPoR7a5-hiShzyP169xLrQQgFJQ5ienC2zd38WnVOAUdsdozDg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPy8RwaJiWCdJnm3nW_dUQn_TtuTPhPggpBqS+BkACGdmW6qsA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a6jsL5Ci9kU1whfoSukjT7Kd5O3_jGhDbfDXg00fkwi5A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPy8RwbJckO8P5oDKCbhpY-ELxdro+PKxxnhMEGt--cNqOv_ZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <015a01cd8014$c1f93b50$45ebb1f0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAPy8RwY7tULnEY-EPPsF44Vn8gggomOGeCaEU3gv7N8qAhzACg@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Aug 21, 2012 at 9:18 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>> ...he has ruined at least one life so far, that of Army Pfc. Bradley
> Manning...  -Kelly
> _______________________________________________
>
> NEIN!
>
> It was Army Pfc Bradley Manning who ruined the life of Army Pfc. Bradley
> Manning.  He screwed up, he paid the price, and will continue to pay.  That
> being said, he didn't actually spill classified information, for if it is
> classified, it wouldn't have been on any network which had a USB port.  He
> spilled a ton of sensitive information for sure.

I don't deny that Pfc Manning screwed up and by and large deserves
what he is getting... but the damage he could have done would have
been far less without the assistance of Mr. Assange. I don't know
about USB ports and all that, but every news story says the
information or much of it was "classified".

-Kelly


From natasha at natasha.cc  Thu Aug 23 21:12:10 2012
From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More)
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 14:12:10 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Alternatives to Dropbox
Message-ID: <008e01cd8173$f6072d20$e2158760$@natasha.cc>

Does anyone have a great alternative to Dropbox?  

 

Thanks!

 

Natasha

 

 <http://www.natasha.cc/> Natasha Vita-More, PhD

 

 

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From kellycoinguy at gmail.com  Thu Aug 23 21:40:15 2012
From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 15:40:15 -0600
Subject: [ExI] pussy riot case
In-Reply-To: <CAHUTwkM0fRCTStqTp2GHY=BeRpFvgc5zS-AjfsG=Ve+DeXp8Pw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <001e01cd7e29$741785f0$5c4691d0$@att.net>
 <CAPoR7a7=JAe8au6UrxQBid_-5SF-T5G-PKrsk8WCCF+1DsHjUA@mail.gmail.com>
 <008801cd7e47$2cfb31d0$86f19570$@att.net>
 <CAPoR7a5-hiShzyP169xLrQQgFJQ5ienC2zd38WnVOAUdsdozDg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPy8RwaJiWCdJnm3nW_dUQn_TtuTPhPggpBqS+BkACGdmW6qsA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a6jsL5Ci9kU1whfoSukjT7Kd5O3_jGhDbfDXg00fkwi5A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPy8RwbJckO8P5oDKCbhpY-ELxdro+PKxxnhMEGt--cNqOv_ZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHUTwkM0fRCTStqTp2GHY=BeRpFvgc5zS-AjfsG=Ve+DeXp8Pw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPy8RwZ6+JKZRtksKvK94fpF374h0skftU=-PWXVAQ7TeiORhg@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Aug 22, 2012 at 3:32 PM, Jeff Davis <jrd1415 at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Aug 21, 2012 at 3:13 PM, Kelly Anderson wrote:
>
>> I love being the outlier. I am somewhat surprised that there isn't
>> anyone else here who thinks he is dangerous or irresponsible.
>
> I am having such fun with, am more absolutely captivated by, this
> Assange/Wikileaks business.
>
> Sorry to have to come down on the other side of this issue from you
> Kelly, but well, it's our fate.

Ok. But I don't have much time today to hold up my end of the argument... LOL

> So,... let's get it on.
>
>> Army Pfc. Bradley Manning swore an oath to protect his countries
>> secrets, then violated that oath. That's a little stronger expectation
>> of loyalty than "some"...
>
> In fact, he swore no such oath.  Rather he swore an oath to protect
> and defend the Constitution.  Then he found himself in a rather
> difficult situation: caught between his duty to obey orders (note
> important detail: ***lawful*** orders), and his duty report criminal
> behavior.
>
> He reported the crimes he saw -- Sunni detained by US forces being
> turned over to Iraqi forces (Shia) for torture and liquidation -- only
> to be told to shut up and go back to work helping to find and turn
> over more Sunni detainees.

I don't think Pfc Manning was all that particular about what he
leaked. He just grabbed everything he could as quickly as he could and
dumped it all. That this stuff was found in the mega dump is a bit
like saying, "Hey, I found some recyclable aluminum at the land
fill"...

> So he was faced with a seriously nasty choice, join in the
> criminality, or,... do something else.  He chose "something else",
> which was to blow the whistle on the criminality.

He may have felt compelled by particular acts to do what he did, but
he dumped a whole big bag of stuff.

> We each have our attitude towards what he did, but in the end it is up
> to a jury of his peers to decide the degrees of rightness and
> wrongness of his actions.  I would add that in a just world, the US
> civilian and military leadership should also stand trial alongside
> him, to see whether the "alleged" criminal acts that motivated Manning
> to act as he did, were in fact criminal and whether on that basis they
> rose to the level of justification for Manning's actions.

He's gonna go down. The military can't let it happen any other way.
Right or wrong.

> Sadly, Manning will not get a civilian trial -- until his case reaches
> the Supreme Court --the military will not recuse itself despite the
> self-evident fox-henhouse conflict of interest, and the leadership
> elite will never stand trial.  Which leads me to the conclusion that
> Manning will get the fairest political show trial the military can
> conduct, and spend most of his life in prison.
>
> I don' approve, but then, I'm a person of no importance.

You are a voter, the person who should have the most importance.

>> Assange himself is not guilty of treason in the sense that he has not
>> personally committed an offense against the country of his birth.
>
>> Nevertheless, he is guilty of promoting and enabling treason.
>
> The assessment of treason turns on the question of whether the US
> conduct witnessed in Iraq by Manning was criminal or not.  That's for
> a jury to decide.

I was speaking in general terms... that wikileaks is a conduit for treason.

> Now on to Assange.
>
>> He may be free under US law as I understand it to do what he is doing.
>> I hope so. But with freedom comes a certain amount of responsibility.
>> He has not exercised that, IMHO.
>>
>> The charge against Assange isn't so much "playing with people's
>> lives", but making all of civilization less safe by outing secrets
>> that might well be more safely kept behind closed doors. I've heard
>> his counter argument, and I simply disagree. As you know, I have
>> serious doubts about the good intentions of governments as a system,
>> and would love to take them all down a notch or two... I just think
>> Assange is taking the wrong approach to doing that. I think I actually
>> agree with his goals.
>
> As you state, this is your view.  Fair enough.
>
> My view is that the world is undergoing a paradigm change in the
> accessibility, ease of distribution, and problematic confidentiality
> of information.  Assuming there is no turning back, then some will
> fear the uncertain consequences of this new paradigm, and others will
> say "Bring it on, and let the chips fall as they may."  If things work
> out for the better, then those who feared the change will have been
> proven wrong.  If things go badly, then the radical transparency
> advocates will have been proven wrong.

I just don't see how it can end happily when behavior can only change
in the future, and information about the past remains unchangeable. If
everything the US government has done covertly over the past 50 years
were to come out all at once, it would be bad. Very very bad. It would
lead to shooting wars, economic wars, etc.

>> ... if privacy is guaranteed to individuals, then
>> why not to some extent extend the same privilege to corporations and
>> to governments.
>
> It appears that privacy for individuals has been cancelled.  But even
> if that were not the case, govts in the era of democracy (phony and
> corrupt though it may be) conduct the people's business and have no
> inherent right to keep the people's business secret from the people.

I understand why you think that way, but I think it violates common
sense to some degree. Do we really want to know what all the Jack
Nicholson characters are doing out there to protect freedom? I don't
know that we are really ready to handle the truth.

> Certainly, the govt could argue that privacy was necessary for govt
> effectiveness, but my experience suggests that leaders seek power and
> employ secrecy primarily to maintain or enlarge that power.  This is
> both an ancient truth and an ancient evil.  Modernity calls for its
> repudiation and disposal.

I don't like secrecy in politics, but I think it is useful militarily.

>> Assange clearly has balls the
>> size of Godzilla, and he was creative and courageous to create such a
>> dumping ground for the world's secrets. But it is also very clear that
>> he has ruined at least one life so far, that of Army Pfc. Bradley
>> Manning. If he hasn't damaged another single person, he clearly stands
>> partially responsible for the ruination of that young man's future.
>> And I can't support him if only for that one example.
>
> Classic case of blaming the victims.  Manning and Assange are both
> victims of lawless Washington.

We will see if Washington can do anything about Assange short of a
predator drone striking the Ecuadorian embassy... now that would be a
bit of a mess... LOL.

-Kelly


From pharos at gmail.com  Thu Aug 23 21:56:32 2012
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 22:56:32 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Alternatives to Dropbox
In-Reply-To: <008e01cd8173$f6072d20$e2158760$@natasha.cc>
References: <008e01cd8173$f6072d20$e2158760$@natasha.cc>
Message-ID: <CAL_armgYt1PvUufG96LnzaABWiG_sWtbCceYoQH8ejaq+dcKsA@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 10:12 PM, Natasha Vita-More wrote:
> Does anyone have a great alternative to Dropbox?
>
>

Google Drive or Microsoft Skydrive are the main alternatives.

https://drive.google.com
http://www.skydrive.com/


BillK


From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Thu Aug 23 22:02:19 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 00:02:19 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Manning and Assange
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB4nJ332OV4qxT2jEpVpWXfgCfH-okJe_C4WJiY_5uB0Vg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB4nJ332OV4qxT2jEpVpWXfgCfH-okJe_C4WJiY_5uB0Vg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a5UP85burPfhALdG00qj4-QaLTO59ZjP8h_OTnNebYL3w@mail.gmail.com>

On 22 August 2012 19:04, Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> wrote:

> It's not that clear cut.  The oath (undertaking) for military service
> requires you to obey *lawful* orders.  If a military superior ordered
> you to keep quiet about a murder is that a lawful order?  Was the
> Baghdad airstrike (known as "Collateral Murder") in that class?
> It's worth reviewing http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Calley
>

This, from a lawyerly POV, is a more sensible argument.


> If attention motivates Julian Assange, what do
> you expect?  Is that different in any way from what motivates
> President Obama?  If so, how?
>

I thought just the same about the insistence of some posts about the
"narcissic" profile of Julian Assange. Hey, what's the big deal? I am a
narcissic myself, and I do not like the implicitly discriminatory
connotation of the way the term was employed. :-)


> However, that process has almost eliminated the former prime objection
> to propulsion lasers.  If governments (particularly the US) already
> have the ability and consider it normal to extra judicially kill
> people anywhere, then GW propulsion lasers don't introduce anything
> new.
>

And this is a significant silver lining in all that affair. :-)

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Thu Aug 23 22:11:04 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 00:11:04 +0200
Subject: [ExI] 2045
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a5nds4g4=dA-9ut4dpG3WMGKcjE1GaF2aqcUCPBMAQ=xQ@mail.gmail.com>

"Political" initiatives from a certain background appear to be multiplying
in recent times...

http://evolution.2045.com/

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From clementlawyer at gmail.com  Thu Aug 23 22:11:45 2012
From: clementlawyer at gmail.com (James Clement)
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 18:11:45 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Alternatives to Dropbox
In-Reply-To: <008e01cd8173$f6072d20$e2158760$@natasha.cc>
References: <008e01cd8173$f6072d20$e2158760$@natasha.cc>
Message-ID: <CA+LBAbSL2kFhN_vF2c5w+QOgF-9UmDX7NEWv_P4u79ja1RHEiQ@mail.gmail.com>

http://www.drive.comOn Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 5:12 PM, Natasha Vita-More <
natasha at natasha.cc> wrote:

> Does anyone have a great alternative to Dropbox?  ****
>
> ** **
>
> Thanks!****
>
> ** **
>
> Natasha****
>
> ** **
>
> Natasha Vita-More, PhD <http://www.natasha.cc/>****
>
> ** **
>
> **
>
I use them all (Dropbox, Evernote <https://www.evernote.com>,
Drive<https://drive.google.com>,
and Box <https://www.box.com>), but I found Box.com to be nearly as good as
DropBox.

Best regards,

James
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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Thu Aug 23 22:56:17 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 00:56:17 +0200
Subject: [ExI] pussy riot case
In-Reply-To: <006e01cd8133$6e5a76b0$4b0f6410$@att.net>
References: <mailman.1407.1345683147.17650.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <1345711523.80055.YahooMailClassic@web114413.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
 <006e01cd8133$6e5a76b0$4b0f6410$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a4=0cDDCySmjHXPOCyFE7MGUm3HXM94VzB4RsVS=3PLkw@mail.gmail.com>

On 23 August 2012 15:30, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

> >... On Behalf Of Ben Zaiboc
> >...I'm not talking about a legal option, though.  I'm talking about doing
> what you believe is the right thing, morally.  Of course he would have to
> expect to pay the price for breaking the letter of the law, as other people
> have noted.
>

I am a little lost in nested quoting, so I am not sure to whom I am
replying, but I submit that after a fashion respecting an oath might be a
moral obligation even if and when the law might allow you to infringe it
without legal consequences...

>...On the other hand, there's a reason that "I was only following orders"
> is not regarded as a legitimate defence in many legal systems, when someone
> is accused of committing an atrocity, for example.
>

As far as the military or para-military world is concerned, "obeying
orders" may well get you killed by the enemy either without much ceremony,
or possibly after a trial, the second possibility being simply more
choreographic.

OTOH, there *are* legal systems that allow, or even demand, that you
disobey "illegal" orders. So that you can be shot or tried also by your own
party not only for disobeying orders, but also for obeying them. :-)

>...I don't think you can unequivocally condemn someone who has sworn a
> legal oath to obey his superior, and is then ordered to commit, or
> facilitate, or cover up, an atrocity.  It's called being between a rock and
> a hard place.
>

"Atrocity" is however a relative concept, even more so when you are given a
gun for the explicit purpose of making use of it on living flesh, your
rules of engagement allow you to open fire first, and the XIX century
distinction between enemy forces and civilians is fading away...

As little as I may personally like, eg, US wars abroad, this can hardly be
denied.

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From spike66 at att.net  Thu Aug 23 23:58:31 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 16:58:31 -0700
Subject: [ExI] pussy riot case
In-Reply-To: <CAPy8RwY7tULnEY-EPPsF44Vn8gggomOGeCaEU3gv7N8qAhzACg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <001e01cd7e29$741785f0$5c4691d0$@att.net>
 <CAPoR7a7=JAe8au6UrxQBid_-5SF-T5G-PKrsk8WCCF+1DsHjUA@mail.gmail.com>
 <008801cd7e47$2cfb31d0$86f19570$@att.net>
 <CAPoR7a5-hiShzyP169xLrQQgFJQ5ienC2zd38WnVOAUdsdozDg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPy8RwaJiWCdJnm3nW_dUQn_TtuTPhPggpBqS+BkACGdmW6qsA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a6jsL5Ci9kU1whfoSukjT7Kd5O3_jGhDbfDXg00fkwi5A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPy8RwbJckO8P5oDKCbhpY-ELxdro+PKxxnhMEGt--cNqOv_ZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <015a01cd8014$c1f93b50$45ebb1f0$@att.net>
 <CAPy8RwY7tULnEY-EPPsF44Vn8gggomOGeCaEU3gv7N8qAhzACg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <015501cd818b$33557c10$9a007430$@att.net>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Kelly Anderson
...
>
>> ...  That being said, he didn't actually spill classified 
> information, for if it is classified, it wouldn't have been on any 
> network which had a USB port.  He spilled a ton of sensitive information
for sure.

>... but the damage he could have done would have been far less without the
assistance of Mr. Assange. I don't know about USB ports and all that, but
every news story says the information or much of it was "classified".
-Kelly
_______________________________________________


Kelly OK cool, I realized why it is you and I were misunderstanding each
other.

The people who are in big trouble here are the ones who wrote classified
info on a computer system which isn't qualified for that level of
classification.  Any system which has a disk burner, a USB port in which one
can put a flash drive, any kind of removable medium or memory, usually any
computer case which is not locked or can be opened or compromised without
setting off alarms or disabling everything, any computer which is physically
located outside a facility specifically designed for containing classified
info, any computer which meets any one of the above is an example of a
computer on which no one is allowed to write classified info.

This is puzzling: I read the Wikipedia page, which says the material was a
quarter of a million US diplomatic cables, 40% confidential, 6% secret.  So
now I don't understand how all that secret stuff ended up where a 19 yr old
PFC could get to it, 1500 secret documents, oy.  That represents a pile of
security clearances which are now up in smoke.  From the security office's
point of view, the info was already compromised by the time PFC Manning saw
it.  Whoever wrote the info on a non-secure system (see above) would lose
their clearance at the very least, which means they lose their job.  I don't
know what they do in a case like this.  We need to stand by and see what the
final verdict reads.

spike



From brainwav93 at hotmail.com  Fri Aug 24 00:16:49 2012
From: brainwav93 at hotmail.com (T. Watts)
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 18:16:49 -0600
Subject: [ExI] pussy riot case
In-Reply-To: <015501cd818b$33557c10$9a007430$@att.net>
References: <001e01cd7e29$741785f0$5c4691d0$@att.net>,
 <CAPoR7a7=JAe8au6UrxQBid_-5SF-T5G-PKrsk8WCCF+1DsHjUA@mail.gmail.com>,
 <008801cd7e47$2cfb31d0$86f19570$@att.net>,
 <CAPoR7a5-hiShzyP169xLrQQgFJQ5ienC2zd38WnVOAUdsdozDg@mail.gmail.com>,
 <CAPy8RwaJiWCdJnm3nW_dUQn_TtuTPhPggpBqS+BkACGdmW6qsA@mail.gmail.com>,
 <CAPoR7a6jsL5Ci9kU1whfoSukjT7Kd5O3_jGhDbfDXg00fkwi5A@mail.gmail.com>,
 <CAPy8RwbJckO8P5oDKCbhpY-ELxdro+PKxxnhMEGt--cNqOv_ZA@mail.gmail.com>,
 <015a01cd8014$c1f93b50$45ebb1f0$@att.net>,
 <CAPy8RwY7tULnEY-EPPsF44Vn8gggomOGeCaEU3gv7N8qAhzACg@mail.gmail.com>,
 <015501cd818b$33557c10$9a007430$@att.net>
Message-ID: <BLU159-W40F1FC77A784FBDF677FAAD3BD0@phx.gbl>


Computer security is a joke in many places it ought not be. Ira Winkler tells some hair-raising anecdotes; an employee of NSA named "Kirk" whose password was "captain", or how he talked his way into root access at a) a military base and b) a fortune 500 IT section, each in under 24 hours. I misunderstood your point, I thought you were saying physical measures were in place and were defeated, not that physical measures were not being observed.
Tom



> From: spike66 at att.net
> To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 16:58:31 -0700
> Subject: Re: [ExI] pussy riot case
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
> [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Kelly Anderson
> ...
> >
> >> ...  That being said, he didn't actually spill classified 
> > information, for if it is classified, it wouldn't have been on any 
> > network which had a USB port.  He spilled a ton of sensitive information
> for sure.
> 
> >... but the damage he could have done would have been far less without the
> assistance of Mr. Assange. I don't know about USB ports and all that, but
> every news story says the information or much of it was "classified".
> -Kelly
> _______________________________________________
> 
> 
> Kelly OK cool, I realized why it is you and I were misunderstanding each
> other.
> 
> The people who are in big trouble here are the ones who wrote classified
> info on a computer system which isn't qualified for that level of
> classification.  Any system which has a disk burner, a USB port in which one
> can put a flash drive, any kind of removable medium or memory, usually any
> computer case which is not locked or can be opened or compromised without
> setting off alarms or disabling everything, any computer which is physically
> located outside a facility specifically designed for containing classified
> info, any computer which meets any one of the above is an example of a
> computer on which no one is allowed to write classified info.
> 
> This is puzzling: I read the Wikipedia page, which says the material was a
> quarter of a million US diplomatic cables, 40% confidential, 6% secret.  So
> now I don't understand how all that secret stuff ended up where a 19 yr old
> PFC could get to it, 1500 secret documents, oy.  That represents a pile of
> security clearances which are now up in smoke.  From the security office's
> point of view, the info was already compromised by the time PFC Manning saw
> it.  Whoever wrote the info on a non-secure system (see above) would lose
> their clearance at the very least, which means they lose their job.  I don't
> know what they do in a case like this.  We need to stand by and see what the
> final verdict reads.
> 
> spike
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
 		 	   		  
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From natasha at natasha.cc  Fri Aug 24 00:31:20 2012
From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More)
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 17:31:20 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Alternatives to Dropbox
In-Reply-To: <CA+LBAbSL2kFhN_vF2c5w+QOgF-9UmDX7NEWv_P4u79ja1RHEiQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <008e01cd8173$f6072d20$e2158760$@natasha.cc>
 <CA+LBAbSL2kFhN_vF2c5w+QOgF-9UmDX7NEWv_P4u79ja1RHEiQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <002001cd818f$c8e771d0$5ab65570$@natasha.cc>

Under construction.  www.adrive.com perhaps?

 

I think this must be it.  If so, thanks a million!

 

 <http://www.natasha.cc/> Natasha Vita-More, PhD

 

 

From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of James Clement
Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2012 3:12 PM
To: ExI chat list
Subject: Re: [ExI] Alternatives to Dropbox

 

http://www.drive.comOn Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 5:12 PM, Natasha Vita-More
<natasha at natasha.cc> wrote:

Does anyone have a great alternative to Dropbox?  

 

Thanks!

 

Natasha

 

 <http://www.natasha.cc/> Natasha Vita-More, PhD

 

 

I use them all (Dropbox, Evernote <https://www.evernote.com> , Drive
<https://drive.google.com> , and Box <https://www.box.com> ), but I found
Box.com to be nearly as good as DropBox.




Best regards,

James  

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From jrd1415 at gmail.com  Fri Aug 24 00:31:24 2012
From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis)
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 17:31:24 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Manning and Assange
In-Reply-To: <CAPoR7a5UP85burPfhALdG00qj4-QaLTO59ZjP8h_OTnNebYL3w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB4nJ332OV4qxT2jEpVpWXfgCfH-okJe_C4WJiY_5uB0Vg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a5UP85burPfhALdG00qj4-QaLTO59ZjP8h_OTnNebYL3w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHUTwkOzVDQTGikrO8XS_nEk8oz2EcR=kd4tGZbeBaYNBH-FNA@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 3:02 PM, Stefano Vaj <stefano.vaj at gmail.com> wrote:

> I thought just the same about the insistence of some posts about the
> "narcissic" profile of Julian Assange. Hey, what's the big deal? I am a
> narcissic myself, and I do not like the implicitly discriminatory
> connotation of the way the term was employed. :-)

Thank you, Stefano.

 Back in '92, when Ross Perot briefly ran for President, certain
commentators remarked in a coyly critical way that he had quite the
ego.  The implication was clear:  American voters should beware of the
possibly defective thinking or character of a man with so outsized a
view of himself.

I couldn't help being astonished.  What about Clinton, HW Bush, or
Nader, or for that matter any of the lower orders of pols seeking
federal office in the Imperial city?  No egos there, right?

Give me a break.

Egotist, narcissist, it's all the same.

I think  many of those with hostility toward Assange, are just
jealous.  He's smart, confident, heroic, fearlessly tightens the
sphincters of tyrannical elites, and has babes the world over hiking
their skirts for him.  If you're a guy who can't get laid, or a woman
with relationship disappointments, well then, naturally, you can't
stand Assange, the despicable cad.

If you're an admirer of Robin Hood, you love Assange.  If you're a
"patriot" whose ego identifies with  authority and state power (so
long as the power is in the hands of your "tribe", of course) then you
hate Assange.

In short, he's Julian Assange, and they're not.

Best, Jeff Davis

 "During times of universal deceit, telling the
  truth becomes a revolutionary act."
                  George Orwell


From spike66 at att.net  Fri Aug 24 00:29:42 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 17:29:42 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Manning and Assange
In-Reply-To: <CAPoR7a5UP85burPfhALdG00qj4-QaLTO59ZjP8h_OTnNebYL3w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB4nJ332OV4qxT2jEpVpWXfgCfH-okJe_C4WJiY_5uB0Vg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a5UP85burPfhALdG00qj4-QaLTO59ZjP8h_OTnNebYL3w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <015901cd818f$8e636f00$ab2a4d00$@att.net>

 

 

From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Stefano Vaj
Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2012 3:02 PM
To: ExI chat list
Subject: Re: [ExI] Manning and Assange

 

On 22 August 2012 19:04, Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> wrote:

>.It's not that clear cut.  The oath (undertaking) for military service
requires you to obey *lawful* orders.  If a military superior ordered
you to keep quiet about a murder is that a lawful order?

 

No!  Not even close.

 

I have a colleague who related the story of something that happened when he
was in the navy.  He was a radio technician, in the navigation room working
on the intercom.  The boss of that area was a Seaman First Class, who ran
all the metrology equipment.  The navigator, a First Lieutenant, was present
in that room when the Seaman First started saying the depth was reading way
lower than expected.  They were steaming up a river on the US east coast,
don't recall the name.  The Navigator told him to check his instruments, but
the Seaman First kept insisting that they were in waters too shallow for
that ship (a destroyer) which meant they must be off course, meaning the
Navigator screwed up.  He became agitated and raised his voice, telling the
SFirst to shut up and check his instruments, who kept insisting the readings
were too low.  

 

My colleague who was a 19 yr old Seaman 3rd, was near panic, seeing a Seaman
First arguing with a First Lieutenant, which can be interpreted as mutiny.
He didn't know what to do, so he opened a comm line to the bridge, so the
Old Man was up there listening to all this, with the Lieutenant angrily
telling the tech to shut up.  The disagreement escalated in the next several
minutes until they heard a soft cuuush cuuush. cuuush.. as the ship scraped
bottom.  There was a terrified pause, at which time they heard the engines
reverse full.  The Seaman First said "Congratulations sir, you just ran us
aground." 

 

Right then, the door slammed open and the First Mate was standing there, and
Teeeen HUT!  The Lt Commander pointed to the Navigator and the technician
and said "YOU!  YOU!  Report to the bridge, immediately."   Those two left
forthwith.  The commander, on his way out, pointed to the radioman (my
colleague) and ordered "Go to your quarters immediately, stay there until
called, don't talk to anyone."  He choked out a terrified "SIR YES SIR"
which were the last words he uttered for the next several hours.  T here he
was in his quarters under orders to not talk, so he didn't.  Orders are
orders.

 

He was astonished when an ensign showed up carrying him a plate of food.  An
OSSIFER, bringing a tiny microscopic Seaman Third a plate of food!  He
thought it must be some surreal nightmare, for he was still under orders to
not talk, so he didn't, not even to thank the Ensign.

 

About an hour after that, they called him to the bridge, so here he was
among a group of men who had the authority to have him thrown overboard head
first, being asked to describe what happened in the navigation room.

 

The destroyer steamed back out to sea, apparently with no damage, and a
helicopter came down the next morning, dropped off a new navigator and took
away the old one, who they never saw again.  They heard the navigator was
charged in court martial with issuing an illegal order, shouting at the tech
to shut up.  He was likely sent back to a desk job somewhere.  My colleague
marveled that he had received essentially the same orders in a different
context from the first mate, but those orders were legal, and he damn well
followed them.

 

So the point of all this is that a soldier or sailor must recognize the
difference between legal orders and illegal ones.  To witness a war crime
and not report it is a war crime.

 

spike

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From clementlawyer at gmail.com  Fri Aug 24 00:44:35 2012
From: clementlawyer at gmail.com (James Clement)
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 20:44:35 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Alternatives to Dropbox
In-Reply-To: <002001cd818f$c8e771d0$5ab65570$@natasha.cc>
References: <008e01cd8173$f6072d20$e2158760$@natasha.cc>
 <CA+LBAbSL2kFhN_vF2c5w+QOgF-9UmDX7NEWv_P4u79ja1RHEiQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <002001cd818f$c8e771d0$5ab65570$@natasha.cc>
Message-ID: <CA+LBAbQZg9H1exHY8_+jV3i8F5+m1H0FhtXyuh748W3LOKvX9w@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 8:31 PM, Natasha Vita-More <natasha at natasha.cc>wrote:

> Under construction.  www.adrive.com perhaps?****
>
> ** **
>
> I think this must be it.  If so, thanks a million!****
>
> ** **
>
> Natasha Vita-More, PhD <http://www.natasha.cc/>****
>
> ** **
>
> **
>
Google Drive used to be Google Docs. If you haven't been to Docs since the
changeover, just click on https://drive.google.com

James


> **
>
> *From:* extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:
> extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] *On Behalf Of *James Clement
> *Sent:* Thursday, August 23, 2012 3:12 PM
> *To:* ExI chat list
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Alternatives to Dropbox****
>
> ** **
>
> http://www.drive.comOn Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 5:12 PM, Natasha Vita-More <
> natasha at natasha.cc> wrote:****
>
> Does anyone have a great alternative to Dropbox?  ****
>
>  ****
>
> Thanks!****
>
>  ****
>
> Natasha****
>
>  ****
>
> Natasha Vita-More, PhD <http://www.natasha.cc/>****
>
>  ****
>
>  ****
>
> I use them all (Dropbox, Evernote <https://www.evernote.com>, Drive<https://drive.google.com>,
> and Box <https://www.box.com>), but I found Box.com to be nearly as good
> as DropBox.****
>
>
> ****
>
> Best regards,****
>
> James  ****
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From sparge at gmail.com  Fri Aug 24 02:14:20 2012
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 22:14:20 -0400
Subject: [ExI] pussy riot case
In-Reply-To: <CAPy8RwZ6+JKZRtksKvK94fpF374h0skftU=-PWXVAQ7TeiORhg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <001e01cd7e29$741785f0$5c4691d0$@att.net>
 <CAPoR7a7=JAe8au6UrxQBid_-5SF-T5G-PKrsk8WCCF+1DsHjUA@mail.gmail.com>
 <008801cd7e47$2cfb31d0$86f19570$@att.net>
 <CAPoR7a5-hiShzyP169xLrQQgFJQ5ienC2zd38WnVOAUdsdozDg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPy8RwaJiWCdJnm3nW_dUQn_TtuTPhPggpBqS+BkACGdmW6qsA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a6jsL5Ci9kU1whfoSukjT7Kd5O3_jGhDbfDXg00fkwi5A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPy8RwbJckO8P5oDKCbhpY-ELxdro+PKxxnhMEGt--cNqOv_ZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHUTwkM0fRCTStqTp2GHY=BeRpFvgc5zS-AjfsG=Ve+DeXp8Pw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPy8RwZ6+JKZRtksKvK94fpF374h0skftU=-PWXVAQ7TeiORhg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2fq4ET5WbAJkQRPYdT7hRxD9muioFBSLen4XqvaFAUC4w@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 5:40 PM, Kelly Anderson <kellycoinguy at gmail.com>wrote:

>  If everything the US government has done covertly over the past 50 years
> were to come out all at once, it would be bad. Very very bad. It would
> lead to shooting wars, economic wars, etc.
>

Then perhaps the US government shouldn't have done those things.

-Dave
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From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Fri Aug 24 03:45:44 2012
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 20:45:44 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Manning and Assange
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB7aRSAjU0NcR4wWRZ9TK09BZdxgngtsq0WTHNQsAO3q9A@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 5:42 PM,  "spike" <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>
> On 22 August 2012 19:04, Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>.It's not that clear cut.  The oath (undertaking) for military service
> requires you to obey *lawful* orders.  If a military superior ordered
> you to keep quiet about a murder is that a lawful order?
>
> No!  Not even close.
>
> I have a colleague who related the story of something that happened when he
> was in the navy.

> My colleague who was a 19 yr old Seaman 3rd, was near panic, seeing a Seaman
> First arguing with a First Lieutenant, which can be interpreted as mutiny.
> He didn't know what to do, so he opened a comm line to the bridge, so the
> Old Man was up there listening to all this, with the Lieutenant angrily
> telling the tech to shut up.

snip, (an inspired solution!)
>
> So the point of all this is that a soldier or sailor must recognize the
> difference between legal orders and illegal ones.  To witness a war crime
> and not report it is a war crime.
>
"Collateral Murder" should be easy to find.  If you can't, I know
people who can get you a pointer to it.  The description was so awful
that I never watched the whole thing, so I don't have complete first
hand knowledge about it.   Manning saw it, rated it as a war crime and
knew it was being covered up by authorities much higher than he could
reach, so he got someone to make it public, a possibly inspired
solution, at least it got a lot of attention, somewhat like opening
the intercomm line to the bridge.

Because of what Manning did, you can watch it yourself and decide if
the gunship engaged in a war crime and make the judgment if Manning
was obligated to make it public since people far up the chain were
trying to keep what he thought of as a war crime under wraps.

Keith


From spike66 at att.net  Fri Aug 24 04:39:17 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 21:39:17 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Manning and Assange
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB7aRSAjU0NcR4wWRZ9TK09BZdxgngtsq0WTHNQsAO3q9A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB7aRSAjU0NcR4wWRZ9TK09BZdxgngtsq0WTHNQsAO3q9A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000b01cd81b2$6cb81ea0$46285be0$@att.net>



>... On Behalf Of Keith Henson

>> ...So the point of all this is that a soldier or sailor must recognize 
> the difference between legal orders and illegal ones.  To witness a 
> war crime and not report it is a war crime.

>..."Collateral Murder" should be easy to find...

OK found it, saw enough of it to know what it is.  I don't see that Julian
did anything illegal about posting that, nor PFC Manning, for the video
isn't marked as classified.  Classified info must be marked as such,
otherwise it isn't.

>....Because of what Manning did, you can watch it yourself and decide if
the gunship engaged in a war crime and make the judgment if Manning was
obligated to make it public since people far up the chain were trying to
keep what he thought of as a war crime under wraps...  Keith
_______________________________________________

It looks like a war crime to me.  This is what the video made me think of:
the modern military really emphasizes law and order.  We have these advanced
systems now, IR vision enhanced multispectral this and that, such that
helicopters can thump around so far away from the target no one even knows
they are in the area, and still be able to identify a target, in complete
darkness, and destroy whatever they choose.  We can never trust anyone with
that advanced weaponry until it is established that they are
super-disciplined follow all legal orders exactly and carefully types, no
exceptions.

Keith what ever came of this case?

spike



From brainwav93 at hotmail.com  Fri Aug 24 05:32:56 2012
From: brainwav93 at hotmail.com (T. Watts)
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 23:32:56 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Manning and Assange
In-Reply-To: <000b01cd81b2$6cb81ea0$46285be0$@att.net>
References: <CAPiwVB7aRSAjU0NcR4wWRZ9TK09BZdxgngtsq0WTHNQsAO3q9A@mail.gmail.com>,
 <000b01cd81b2$6cb81ea0$46285be0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <BLU159-W18C87773EE4FCB518BD293D3BD0@phx.gbl>


I saw the video, and it certainly appeared to me (in combination with the sound track) that the pilot believed he was shooting at bad guys. Imagine yourself in an extremely stressful situation, staring for hours at a small grainy black and white screen, trying to pick out targets from non-targets. seems to me it would be very easy to get jumpy and make mistakes. I saw no war crime, just tragic mistakes. 

> From: spike66 at att.net
> To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 21:39:17 -0700
> Subject: Re: [ExI] Manning and Assange
> 
> 
> 
> >... On Behalf Of Keith Henson
> 
> >> ...So the point of all this is that a soldier or sailor must recognize 
> > the difference between legal orders and illegal ones.  To witness a 
> > war crime and not report it is a war crime.
> 
> >..."Collateral Murder" should be easy to find...
> 
> OK found it, saw enough of it to know what it is.  I don't see that Julian
> did anything illegal about posting that, nor PFC Manning, for the video
> isn't marked as classified.  Classified info must be marked as such,
> otherwise it isn't.
> 
> >....Because of what Manning did, you can watch it yourself and decide if
> the gunship engaged in a war crime and make the judgment if Manning was
> obligated to make it public since people far up the chain were trying to
> keep what he thought of as a war crime under wraps...  Keith
> _______________________________________________
> 
> It looks like a war crime to me.  This is what the video made me think of:
> the modern military really emphasizes law and order.  We have these advanced
> systems now, IR vision enhanced multispectral this and that, such that
> helicopters can thump around so far away from the target no one even knows
> they are in the area, and still be able to identify a target, in complete
> darkness, and destroy whatever they choose.  We can never trust anyone with
> that advanced weaponry until it is established that they are
> super-disciplined follow all legal orders exactly and carefully types, no
> exceptions.
> 
> Keith what ever came of this case?
> 
> spike
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
 		 	   		  
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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Fri Aug 24 15:14:58 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 17:14:58 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: [ZERO STATE] FB being weird,
	can't see my own post on the...
In-Reply-To: <13f0a0075c365089b1a35bebbee84542@async.facebook.com>
References: <507723072586896-207354862623720@groups.facebook.com>
 <13f0a0075c365089b1a35bebbee84542@async.facebook.com>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a5AY8Ke9U4+4Qc_nTxRXPCyQxBrKjrvgZt0rVortN_Bdg@mail.gmail.com>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Amon Kalkin <notification+pcp=gpc1 at facebookmail.com>
Date: 24 August 2012 10:32
Subject: [ZERO STATE] FB being weird, can't see my own post on the...
To: ZERO STATE <zerostate at groups.facebook.com>


**
Amon Kalkin posted in ZERO
STATE<http://www.facebook.com/n/?groups%2Fzerostate%2Fpermalink%2F507723072586896%2F&mid=6a13952G5b95d8a5G3f9443cG96&bcode=I49VEizl_1.1345797156.AaREoevlct0lBF0i&n_m=stefano.vaj%40gmail.com>
[image: FB being weird, can't see my own post on
the...]<http://www.facebook.com/n/?profile.php&id=1138221822&mid=6a13952G5b95d8a5G3f9443cG96&bcode=I49VEizl_1.1345797156.AaREoevlct0lBF0i&n_m=stefano.vaj%40gmail.com>Amon
Kalkin<http://www.facebook.com/n/?profile.php&id=1138221822&mid=6a13952G5b95d8a5G3f9443cG96&bcode=I49VEizl_1.1345797156.AaREoevlct0lBF0i&n_m=stefano.vaj%40gmail.com>10:32am
Aug 24
FB being weird, can't see my own post on the Metro/Alcor thing... here's
some more info from Kryonica:

Here is the web link:

http://www.metro.co.uk/news/newsfocus/909474-the-cryonic-man-how-alcor-life-extension-preserves-your-dead-body<http://www.facebook.com/l/9AQHgOg28/www.metro.co.uk/news/newsfocus/909474-the-cryonic-man-how-alcor-life-extension-preserves-your-dead-body>
On 24 Aug 2012, at 09:12, Amon Kalkin <doctrinezero at gmail.com> wrote:

The Metro is a free London newspaper given away in train stations, with a
very high readership. This morning it features a double-page spread on
Alcor with quotes from Max More & Mark Voelker. It's very sympathetic, I
think - pleasing to see!

Kryonica
Kryonica at gmail.com

Live long enough to live forever

-- 
-- 
Zero State mailing list:
http://groups.google.com/group/DoctrineZero<http://www.facebook.com/l/dAQFNUHIl/groups.google.com/group/DoctrineZero>
http://groups.google.com/group/doctrinezero kryonica
kryonica at gmail.com
live<http://www.facebook.com/l/3AQEhV5ECAQF_NtofXi2PP4raOdfSnVsCEYM2rMk_AnwOhQ/groups.google.com/group/DoctrineZeroKryonicaKryonica at gmail.comLive>
groups.google.com<http://www.facebook.com/l/3AQEhV5ECAQF_NtofXi2PP4raOdfSnVsCEYM2rMk_AnwOhQ/groups.google.com/group/DoctrineZeroKryonicaKryonica at gmail.comLive>
**
View Post on Facebook<http://www.facebook.com/n/?groups%2Fzerostate%2Fpermalink%2F507723072586896%2F&mid=6a13952G5b95d8a5G3f9443cG96&bcode=I49VEizl_1.1345797156.AaREoevlct0lBF0i&n_m=stefano.vaj%40gmail.com>?
Edit
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From kellycoinguy at gmail.com  Fri Aug 24 17:40:42 2012
From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 11:40:42 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Manning and Assange
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB7aRSAjU0NcR4wWRZ9TK09BZdxgngtsq0WTHNQsAO3q9A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB7aRSAjU0NcR4wWRZ9TK09BZdxgngtsq0WTHNQsAO3q9A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPy8Rwb7htxpndDMSNHY_PSxvTzwTuMODf806+exj3ScVzkaNA@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 9:45 PM, Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 5:42 PM,  "spike" <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

> Because of what Manning did, you can watch it yourself and decide if
> the gunship engaged in a war crime and make the judgment if Manning
> was obligated to make it public since people far up the chain were
> trying to keep what he thought of as a war crime under wraps.

OK, so I have a question. It's a real question.

Because of the stuff Manning has released, has any one of the alleged
"war criminals" shown acting in these videos/documents been brought up
on charges that they would not have otherwise faced in any case?

-Kelly


From spike66 at att.net  Fri Aug 24 19:48:54 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 12:48:54 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Manning and Assange
In-Reply-To: <CAPy8Rwb7htxpndDMSNHY_PSxvTzwTuMODf806+exj3ScVzkaNA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB7aRSAjU0NcR4wWRZ9TK09BZdxgngtsq0WTHNQsAO3q9A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPy8Rwb7htxpndDMSNHY_PSxvTzwTuMODf806+exj3ScVzkaNA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00db01cd8231$7e8e5d40$7bab17c0$@att.net>

>... On Behalf Of Kelly Anderson
Subject: Re: [ExI] Manning and Assange

On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 9:45 PM, Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com>
wrote:

>>... Because of what Manning did, you can watch it yourself and decide if 
> the gunship engaged in a war crime and make the judgment if Manning 
> was obligated to make it public since people far up the chain were 
> trying to keep what he thought of as a war crime under wraps.

>...OK, so I have a question. It's a real question.

>...Because of the stuff Manning has released, has any one of the alleged
"war criminals" shown acting in these videos/documents been brought up on
charges that they would not have otherwise faced in any case? -Kelly
_______________________________________________


Ja, and the next questions: if they were trying to keep that under wraps,
why was it on a system that could be easily compromised with a disk burner?
What happened to the people who posted it to that system?  If that video was
classified, why isn't it properly marked?  

Note to Kelly: if the video was on an unsecured network, Manning didn't
release it.  He only forwarded it to WikiLeaks, who forwarded it to the
world.  If it isn't specifically marked as classified, it isn't classified.
If it is specifically marked classified, I don't understand how the markings
were removed and how it got onto an unsecured system and why whoever put it
there isn't in the brig too.

Note to self: there are so many unexplainables here, I need to stop posting
on the subject until I hear something that sounds understandable.

spike



From kellycoinguy at gmail.com  Fri Aug 24 20:25:20 2012
From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 14:25:20 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Manning and Assange
In-Reply-To: <00db01cd8231$7e8e5d40$7bab17c0$@att.net>
References: <CAPiwVB7aRSAjU0NcR4wWRZ9TK09BZdxgngtsq0WTHNQsAO3q9A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPy8Rwb7htxpndDMSNHY_PSxvTzwTuMODf806+exj3ScVzkaNA@mail.gmail.com>
 <00db01cd8231$7e8e5d40$7bab17c0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAPy8RwbybdPipVzkakYdVzXsTC3N-kkyAUWp0DX3zpf--96FRQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Aug 24, 2012 at 1:48 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>>... On Behalf Of Kelly Anderson
> Subject: Re: [ExI] Manning and Assange
>>...OK, so I have a question. It's a real question.
>
>>...Because of the stuff Manning has released, has any one of the alleged
> "war criminals" shown acting in these videos/documents been brought up on
> charges that they would not have otherwise faced in any case? -Kelly
> _______________________________________________

After searching around on Google for a bit, the answer SEEMS to be no.
I can't find any arrests related to Wikileaks other than that of
Manning. If there were charges, it would be easier to make the
argument that Manning did right. Maybe that's why there haven't been
any... the potential conspiracy theories make me dizzy..

> Ja, and the next questions: if they were trying to keep that under wraps,
> why was it on a system that could be easily compromised with a disk burner?
> What happened to the people who posted it to that system?  If that video was
> classified, why isn't it properly marked?

Perhaps the entire system was classified such that individual videos
in the system did not need to be marked as such, but this is only a
guess.

> Note to Kelly: if the video was on an unsecured network, Manning didn't
> release it.  He only forwarded it to WikiLeaks, who forwarded it to the
> world.  If it isn't specifically marked as classified, it isn't classified.
> If it is specifically marked classified, I don't understand how the markings
> were removed and how it got onto an unsecured system and why whoever put it
> there isn't in the brig too.
>
> Note to self: there are so many unexplainables here, I need to stop posting
> on the subject until I hear something that sounds understandable.

Another question is whether Wikileaks has had any real effect. Tunisia
was the first domino in the Arab Spring, and at least one reporter
thinks there is a connection.
http://www.theweek.co.uk/africa/wikileaks/8571/tunisia-wikileaks-had-part-ben-ali%E2%80%99s-downfall

If Wikileaks contributed to the Arab Spring, and we all know that that
continued on to Egypt, and I suspect that will all end VERY badly for
the people of the Middle East, and most probably us as well... then
can we lay at least part of the blame at the feet of Assange?

The world is full of unforeseen and unforeseeable side effects.
Assange monkeying around with the world's secrets will undoubtedly
have a large effect with both positive and negative side effects. It's
a lot of responsibility for one person to stand up and take, no matter
how narcissistic his personality is.

On a side note, I don't think any president in the last 100 years has
NOT been a narcissist. It's almost required to do the job. Or at least
to asking for it. Think about the narcissism in the statement, "I want
to be your next president"... geez. What normal person could say that?

-Kelly


From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Fri Aug 24 21:19:36 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 23:19:36 +0200
Subject: [ExI] mars panorama
In-Reply-To: <CAL+RtPd59U6iQ3NZh++j8p7Epyn2eKeAdfChs4ySGqps7eGkEA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1407.1345683147.17650.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <1345711658.21009.YahooMailClassic@web114401.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
 <CAL+RtPd59U6iQ3NZh++j8p7Epyn2eKeAdfChs4ySGqps7eGkEA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a5S+r18N6MCWbZALLzJL3AbmBfOJcFCT5zAHwx+ycxNKw@mail.gmail.com>

On 23 August 2012 13:59, Giovanni Santostasi <gsantostasi at gmail.com> wrote:

> So similar to Earth and so different in its absence of life. How lucky we
> are that this strange phenomenon just happened on our planet.
>

I think that the jury is still out with regard to procariotes...

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From sparge at gmail.com  Fri Aug 24 21:38:14 2012
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 17:38:14 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Manning and Assange
In-Reply-To: <CAPy8RwbybdPipVzkakYdVzXsTC3N-kkyAUWp0DX3zpf--96FRQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB7aRSAjU0NcR4wWRZ9TK09BZdxgngtsq0WTHNQsAO3q9A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPy8Rwb7htxpndDMSNHY_PSxvTzwTuMODf806+exj3ScVzkaNA@mail.gmail.com>
 <00db01cd8231$7e8e5d40$7bab17c0$@att.net>
 <CAPy8RwbybdPipVzkakYdVzXsTC3N-kkyAUWp0DX3zpf--96FRQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2cW+mW+VnAb383UDA=p0J0_H2HpNZHiyQmjDsrFLYb8tA@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Aug 24, 2012 at 4:25 PM, Kelly Anderson <kellycoinguy at gmail.com>wrote:

> If Wikileaks contributed to the Arab Spring, and we all know that that
> continued on to Egypt, and I suspect that will all end VERY badly for
> the people of the Middle East, and most probably us as well... then
> can we lay at least part of the blame at the feet of Assange?
>

You can blame whomever you want for whatever. I think Arab Spring was
probably a good thing, but it's too soon to say for sure. But even if
Wikileaks triggered Arab Spring and it's turns out to be a bad thing, I
think the blame would have to be shared with the government that did all of
things in those leaked documents that incited the outrage as well as the
people who read those leaked documents and reacted badly to them. Don't
blame the medium or the messenger for the message.

-Dave
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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Fri Aug 24 22:10:26 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2012 00:10:26 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Manning and Assange
In-Reply-To: <CAPy8RwbybdPipVzkakYdVzXsTC3N-kkyAUWp0DX3zpf--96FRQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB7aRSAjU0NcR4wWRZ9TK09BZdxgngtsq0WTHNQsAO3q9A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPy8Rwb7htxpndDMSNHY_PSxvTzwTuMODf806+exj3ScVzkaNA@mail.gmail.com>
 <00db01cd8231$7e8e5d40$7bab17c0$@att.net>
 <CAPy8RwbybdPipVzkakYdVzXsTC3N-kkyAUWp0DX3zpf--96FRQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a5EqVzVOtkKXq4=LPC7eQvDHFQ-KQySh3_V9p-ZcqfOyw@mail.gmail.com>

On 24 August 2012 22:25, Kelly Anderson <kellycoinguy at gmail.com> wrote:

> I can't find any arrests related to Wikileaks other than that of
> Manning. If there were charges, it would be easier to make the
> argument that Manning did right. Maybe that's why there haven't been
> any... the potential conspiracy theories make me dizzy..
>

I am no US lawyer, but I wonder whether any evidence collected on the basis
of secret information illegally disclosed would not fall under the "fruit
of a poisonous tree" doctrine, so making any prosecution futile.

This would be quite a paradox, since this doctrine is intended to protect
individuals from illegal government behaviours...

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Fri Aug 24 23:35:17 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2012 01:35:17 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Police mistake reveals plan for Assange's Embassy capture
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a49-3WggsdGFGw_EcEz546KkA0UdMatv8twrZd+GgJZSQ@mail.gmail.com>

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/08/24/police_plan_for_assange/

<<*Police mistake reveals plan for Assange's Embassy capture*

That policeman's lot is not a happy one

By Iain Thomson in San
Francisco<http://forms.theregister.co.uk/mail_author/?story_url=/2012/08/24/police_plan_for_assange/>

A fairly basic security slip has showed just how far the British police are
preparing to go to make sure Julian Assange doesn't leaving the UK without
getting his collar felt.

"Action required ? Assange to be arrested under all circumstances," reads a
handwritten briefing note photographed in the hands of one of the officers
surrounding the Ecuadorian embassy. The note says Assange is to be arrested
if he leaves the embassy in the company of another diplomat or if the
Ecuadorians try and smuggle him out in the diplomatic bag.

The police briefing note also warns that there may be an attempt at
disruption to aid Assange's escape, possibly by the protestors who are at
the embassy. The note references SS10, which may be a misspelling of SO10,
the Metropolitan Police's covert operations group, and SS20, the forces'
counter-terrorism protective security command.

Checking the diplomatic bag to the embassy might seem nonsensical,
summoning up images of Assange contorting himself into a piece of luggage,
but diplomatically protected luggage can be anything up to and including a
shipping container and they've carried people before.

In 1985 relations between the Nigerian government and the British were
strained when the former Nigerian transport minister Umaru Dikko was
abducted in London, drugged and found in diplomatic freight by police. In
that case the authorities were able to inspect the crate Dikko had been
stuffed into because the diplomatic paperwork on the flight had been
incorrectly filed.

When it comes to its own diplomatic materials, however, the British
government takes a harder line. It issued a strong
protest<http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/672786.stm>when the
sanctity of its own diplomatic bag was violated by Zimbabwean
authorities in 2000.

The Ecuadorian government has also had its own problems in this area. In
February the Italian authorities found 40kg of cocaine in diplomatic mail.
The Ecuadorians allowed the search that discovered the drugs and announced
a full investigation <http://www.mmrree.gob.ec/2012/com012.asp>.

So for the moment the stand-off continues. Assange seems safe from
extradition within the embassy grounds and has a long time to go before he
becomes a long-standing occupant. The all-time winner of the embassy
house-guest award is still held by Catholic cardinal J?zsef Mindszenty, who
lived at the US Embassy in Budapest from 1956 to 1971. >>

Hey, but during the Cold War a kind-of international law still was in
existence... :-)

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From anders at aleph.se  Sat Aug 25 09:09:10 2012
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2012 11:09:10 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Police mistake reveals plan for Assange's Embassy capture
In-Reply-To: <CAPoR7a49-3WggsdGFGw_EcEz546KkA0UdMatv8twrZd+GgJZSQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPoR7a49-3WggsdGFGw_EcEz546KkA0UdMatv8twrZd+GgJZSQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <50389636.3050908@aleph.se>

On 25/08/2012 01:35, Stefano Vaj wrote:
> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/08/24/police_plan_for_assange/
>
> <<*Police mistake reveals plan for Assange's Embassy capture*

The Economist had a nice article about the legal mess of the situation:
http://www.economist.com/node/21560881

It points out that the right grant asylum in embassies is not part of 
the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations of 1961. Apparently Latin 
America is the only region where the practice is well established 
(despite countless fictional stories about people hiding safely in the 
US or Soviet embassy). And the International Court of Justice has issued 
a ruling that "diplomatic asylum can exist only under explicit treaties 
or reciprocal usage".

It also looks at the bad fit of Assange and Ecuador. Perhaps a good 
result of the whole mess is that Rafael Correa will find it harder 
tocrack down on media and the judiciary at home.

-- 
Anders Sandberg,
Future of Humanity Institute
Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University

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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Sat Aug 25 14:59:56 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2012 16:59:56 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Police mistake reveals plan for Assange's Embassy capture
In-Reply-To: <50389636.3050908@aleph.se>
References: <CAPoR7a49-3WggsdGFGw_EcEz546KkA0UdMatv8twrZd+GgJZSQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <50389636.3050908@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a5cY7kYEebe=RiCCCJOR_JR8D57jnkyUBwj8gNmTuQa8A@mail.gmail.com>

On 25 August 2012 11:09, Anders Sandberg <anders at aleph.se> wrote:

> It points out that the right grant asylum in embassies is not part of the
> Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations of 1961.
>

Diplomatic immunities has been repeatedly infringed during history, and
their possible foundation and extend in treatises is in fact dubious. The
J?zsef Mindszenty affair shows however how the opinio necessitatis involved
in a customary foundation has been well established for centuries even, and
perhaps especially, in very contentious scenarios.

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From spike66 at att.net  Sat Aug 25 16:28:02 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2012 09:28:02 -0700
Subject: [ExI] 3d printers for sale
Message-ID: <01e301cd82de$9958b2d0$cc0a1870$@att.net>

Got a 3D printer three weeks ago, set it to print a copy of itself.  Took
all day, but finished.  Next day, did it again.  And again the day after
that.  Now I have over a million 3D printers, no place to put them all.
Need to sell some cheap, quickly.  Otherwise tomorrow I will have two
million of them.

 

spike

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From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Sat Aug 25 17:41:03 2012
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2012 10:41:03 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Manning and Assange
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB60VWujfj5TfF2Mc8RnS2Be-NgxdimWzPCjK0H_m3pX8A@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Aug 25, 2012 at 5:00 AM,  "spike" <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>
>>... On Behalf Of Kelly Anderson
> Subject: Re: [ExI] Manning and Assange
>
> On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 9:45 PM, Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>>>... Because of what Manning did, you can watch it yourself and decide if
>> the gunship engaged in a war crime and make the judgment if Manning
>> was obligated to make it public since people far up the chain were
>> trying to keep what he thought of as a war crime under wraps.
>
>>...OK, so I have a question. It's a real question.
>
>>...Because of the stuff Manning has released, has any one of the alleged
> "war criminals" shown acting in these videos/documents been brought up on
> charges that they would not have otherwise faced in any case? -Kelly
> _______________________________________________

> Ja, and the next questions: if they were trying to keep that under wraps,
> why was it on a system that could be easily compromised with a disk burner?
> What happened to the people who posted it to that system?  If that video was
> classified, why isn't it properly marked?
>
> Note to Kelly: if the video was on an unsecured network, Manning didn't
> release it.  He only forwarded it to WikiLeaks, who forwarded it to the
> world.  If it isn't specifically marked as classified, it isn't classified.
> If it is specifically marked classified, I don't understand how the markings
> were removed and how it got onto an unsecured system and why whoever put it
> there isn't in the brig too.
>
> Note to self: there are so many unexplainables here, I need to stop posting
> on the subject until I hear something that sounds understandable.

There are times you just can't evade Godwin's law.

There is wide agreement that the Nazies committed war crimes, a mess
of them were found guilty and executed at the Nuremberg trials.

Let me answer Spike's question with a question.

Germany prosecuted how many war crimes in WWII?

The US *has* persecuted war crimes prosecutions, but only when they
came to worldwide attention and it's been a long time now.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Lai_Massacre

"The My Lai Massacre was the Vietnam War mass murder of between 347
and 504 unarmed civilians in South Vietnam on March 16, 1968, by
United States Army soldiers of "Charlie" Company of 1st Battalion,
20th Infantry Regiment, 11th Brigade of the Americal Division. Most of
the victims were women, children, infants, and elderly people. Some of
the bodies were later found to be mutilated[2] and many women
allegedly raped prior to the killings.[3] While 26 U.S. soldiers were
initially charged with criminal offenses for their actions at M? Lai,
only Second Lieutenant William Calley, a platoon leader in Charlie
Company, was convicted. Found guilty of killing 22 villagers, he was
originally given a life sentence, but only served three and a half
years under house arrest.

"The incident prompted global outrage when it became public knowledge
in 1969. The massacre also increased domestic opposition to the U.S.
involvement in the Vietnam War. Three U.S. servicemen who had tried to
halt the massacre and protect the wounded were initially denounced by
several U.S. Congressmen as traitors in an attempt to cover up the
massacre. They received hate mail and death threats and found
mutilated animals on their doorsteps. "

[Sounds like scientologists]

"The three were later widely praised and decorated by the army for
their heroic actions."

Not likely to happen to Bradley Manning, but there is president.

"The fact that the massacre was successfully covered up for 18 months
was seen as a prime example of the Pentagon's "Culture of Concealment"
and of the lack of integrity that permeated the Defense
establishment."

Note that I have not watched "collateral murder."  There are different
opinions as to it being a crime or just an unfortunate accident.  Of
course one could make a case that the US had no justification for
being there in the first place.  How many "weapons of mass
destruction" did we find?

There is an event where really clasified secret material was released
June 1 of this year.  Far as I know, there is no investigation is
being held into who decided that bragging rights were more important
than a "top secret" classification.  But what would I know?

"This account of the American and Israeli effort to undermine the
Iranian nuclear program  is based on interviews over the past 18
months with current and former American, European and Israeli
officials involved in the program, as well as a range of outside
experts. None would allow their names to be used because the effort
remains highly classified, and parts of it continue to this day. "

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/01/world/middleeast/obama-ordered-wave-of-cyberattacks-against-iran.html?_r=1

(This article is adapted from ?Confront and Conceal: Obama?s Secret
Wars and Surprising Use of American Power,? to be published by Crown
on Tuesday.)

It's an interesting question as to why some leaks are rewarded and
some are punished.

Keith

> spike



From rtomek at ceti.pl  Sat Aug 25 17:41:08 2012
From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola)
Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2012 19:41:08 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] 3d printers for sale
In-Reply-To: <01e301cd82de$9958b2d0$cc0a1870$@att.net>
References: <01e301cd82de$9958b2d0$cc0a1870$@att.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1208251938370.13484@tau.ceti.pl>

On Sat, 25 Aug 2012, spike wrote:

> Got a 3D printer three weeks ago, set it to print a copy of itself.  Took
> all day, but finished.  Next day, did it again.  And again the day after
> that.  Now I have over a million 3D printers, no place to put them all.
> Need to sell some cheap, quickly.  Otherwise tomorrow I will have two
> million of them.
> 
>  
> 
> spike

Just print them legs and some simple brains (one or two neurons for start) 
and make them an instinct to run away from you (and procreate). Problem 
solved?...

Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.      **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home    **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...      **
**                                                                 **
** Tomasz Rola          mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com             **


From kellycoinguy at gmail.com  Sat Aug 25 18:27:37 2012
From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2012 12:27:37 -0600
Subject: [ExI] 3d printers for sale
In-Reply-To: <01e301cd82de$9958b2d0$cc0a1870$@att.net>
References: <01e301cd82de$9958b2d0$cc0a1870$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAPy8RwYRs+0VmHpePNo9oQs5u4Q7fCRzLBh-j7aaoQACyp5rJA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Aug 25, 2012 at 10:28 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> Got a 3D printer three weeks ago, set it to print a copy of itself.  Took
> all day, but finished.  Next day, did it again.  And again the day after
> that.  Now I have over a million 3D printers, no place to put them all.
> Need to sell some cheap, quickly.  Otherwise tomorrow I will have two
> million of them.

LOL. Seriously though, can't the 3d printers available today only
print certain parts of themselves? I thought there were still some
metal parts and such that had to be fabricated the old fashioned way.

-Kelly


From kellycoinguy at gmail.com  Sat Aug 25 18:31:12 2012
From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2012 12:31:12 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Manning and Assange
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2cW+mW+VnAb383UDA=p0J0_H2HpNZHiyQmjDsrFLYb8tA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB7aRSAjU0NcR4wWRZ9TK09BZdxgngtsq0WTHNQsAO3q9A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPy8Rwb7htxpndDMSNHY_PSxvTzwTuMODf806+exj3ScVzkaNA@mail.gmail.com>
 <00db01cd8231$7e8e5d40$7bab17c0$@att.net>
 <CAPy8RwbybdPipVzkakYdVzXsTC3N-kkyAUWp0DX3zpf--96FRQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2cW+mW+VnAb383UDA=p0J0_H2HpNZHiyQmjDsrFLYb8tA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPy8RwbVySw+Mv0QSQuLd6u2EcXB5UhcGzB2ucmouRBQg=49Dg@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Aug 24, 2012 at 3:38 PM, Dave Sill <sparge at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Aug 24, 2012 at 4:25 PM, Kelly Anderson <kellycoinguy at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> You can blame whomever you want for whatever. I think Arab Spring was
> probably a good thing, but it's too soon to say for sure.

So you think that the turn of events in Egypt, which has been at peace
with Israel for decades, and is now in the hands of Islamic
fundamentalists to possibly be a good thing. Must be nice to live in
that kind of world.

> But even if
> Wikileaks triggered Arab Spring and it's turns out to be a bad thing, I
> think the blame would have to be shared with the government that did all of
> things in those leaked documents that incited the outrage as well as the
> people who read those leaked documents and reacted badly to them. Don't
> blame the medium or the messenger for the message.

Here I think you make a pretty good point. I wouldn't lay ALL the
blame on Wikileaks by any stretch of the imagination in any case
whatsoever.

I can see the argument that people will behave more nicely when
everything they say about anybody anywhere should be said in a way
that would not be inflammatory if it were to ever go public, but don't
we have a real necessity to occasionally be able to speak truth
without spin?

-Kelly


From kellycoinguy at gmail.com  Sat Aug 25 18:44:48 2012
From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2012 12:44:48 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Manning and Assange
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB60VWujfj5TfF2Mc8RnS2Be-NgxdimWzPCjK0H_m3pX8A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB60VWujfj5TfF2Mc8RnS2Be-NgxdimWzPCjK0H_m3pX8A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPy8Rwa5r3zA=aiVgtcJsBC4Pi0=NY2_u9VuGaGrsBbVd_GgSA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Aug 25, 2012 at 11:41 AM, Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> wrote:

> Note that I have not watched "collateral murder."  There are different
> opinions as to it being a crime or just an unfortunate accident.  Of
> course one could make a case that the US had no justification for
> being there in the first place.  How many "weapons of mass
> destruction" did we find?

So, was the report that there were weapons of mass destruction a
mistake or a crime?

Since Saddam stated (after he was caught) that it was his intention
for people in the region and the Americans to THINK that he actually
had weapons of mass destruction, when in fact he probably did not, the
war was actually a victory for Saddam's department of propaganda.

> There is an event where really clasified secret material was released
> June 1 of this year.  Far as I know, there is no investigation is
> being held into who decided that bragging rights were more important
> than a "top secret" classification.  But what would I know?

According to Wired Magazine, stuxnet was discovered by  Kaspersky
Labs, a Russian computer security firm. I don't know that this was a
leak in the same sense.

> It's an interesting question as to why some leaks are rewarded and
> some are punished.

Well, yes, that is an interesting phenomena for sure. But most of the
leaks that are rewarded have to do with exploratory political moves,
not national security issues.

-Kelly


From sparge at gmail.com  Sat Aug 25 18:50:28 2012
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2012 14:50:28 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Manning and Assange
In-Reply-To: <CAPy8RwbVySw+Mv0QSQuLd6u2EcXB5UhcGzB2ucmouRBQg=49Dg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB7aRSAjU0NcR4wWRZ9TK09BZdxgngtsq0WTHNQsAO3q9A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPy8Rwb7htxpndDMSNHY_PSxvTzwTuMODf806+exj3ScVzkaNA@mail.gmail.com>
 <00db01cd8231$7e8e5d40$7bab17c0$@att.net>
 <CAPy8RwbybdPipVzkakYdVzXsTC3N-kkyAUWp0DX3zpf--96FRQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2cW+mW+VnAb383UDA=p0J0_H2HpNZHiyQmjDsrFLYb8tA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPy8RwbVySw+Mv0QSQuLd6u2EcXB5UhcGzB2ucmouRBQg=49Dg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2e_Se7ReBggYK9DYVxqQauq84VkbfUc_dTaf=ZCk000+A@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Aug 25, 2012 at 2:31 PM, Kelly Anderson <kellycoinguy at gmail.com>wrote:

> On Fri, Aug 24, 2012 at 3:38 PM, Dave Sill <sparge at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > You can blame whomever you want for whatever. I think Arab Spring was
> > probably a good thing, but it's too soon to say for sure.
>
> So you think that the turn of events in Egypt, which has been at peace
> with Israel for decades, and is now in the hands of Islamic
> fundamentalists to possibly be a good thing.
>

First, I said it's too soon to say for sure. Second, yes, I do think Egypt
is better off without Mubarek. Sure, I'd have preferred a
non-religious-fundamentalist, but apparently that's what the majority of
Egypt wanted. For some reason I didn't get a vote.

I can see the argument that people will behave more nicely when
> everything they say about anybody anywhere should be said in a way
> that would not be inflammatory if it were to ever go public, but don't
> we have a real necessity to occasionally be able to speak truth
> without spin?


Security is never perfect. Things meant to be private *will* sometimes be
made public, despite the best efforts to keep them private. Perhaps the
emphasis should be on minimizing the generation of material that would be
inflammatory if it was made public. Maybe our foreign policy should spend a
lot less effort on meddling in the affairs of others, e.g., by propping up
people like Qaddafi, Mubarek, Saddam Hussein, etc.

-Dave
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From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Sat Aug 25 20:07:00 2012
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2012 13:07:00 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Manning and Assange
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB5sGGczD76tkD2jNR_NA_Xuhfw__hMPb4zS9qQuXm2qJQ@mail.gmail.com>

Why was a Navy adviser stripped of her career?

(Last page)

Cabelly?s travails, however, may be reaching closure. A sentencing
hearing, scheduled for June, was postponed, under seal.

* * *

Eighteen months later, Todd is still afraid to come home, lest the
Cabelly case pop up and bite her again. Her parents have visited from
Vermont, where they are retired, on a few holidays. Once in 2008 they
gathered in Toronto, where she was meeting her lawyers.

At 47, she?s no longer a high-level player in big-think Middle East
strategy (though, judging by her e-mail exchanges with past and
present senior officers, Navy leaders still welcome her advice). She
worries: The drumbeat for a military attack on Iran, she says, is
being pounded ?by the same people who gave us Iraq.?

?What happened to Gwenyth in Bahrain was shocking,? said her father,
Kenneth Thompson, ?but having spent much of my working life in the
State Department, I know that such things are possible. The only way
to curb such abuses of power is to make the facts public.?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/magazine/sunk/2012/08/21/96209788-cebd-11e1-aa14-708bac2c7ee9_story.html



From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Sat Aug 25 20:17:57 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2012 22:17:57 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Manning and Assange
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB60VWujfj5TfF2Mc8RnS2Be-NgxdimWzPCjK0H_m3pX8A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB60VWujfj5TfF2Mc8RnS2Be-NgxdimWzPCjK0H_m3pX8A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a74gM89r3WkxkeArvKRcU4gjHmtQd=orO_4QQRHvYJ8rg@mail.gmail.com>

On 25 August 2012 19:41, Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> wrote:

> Germany prosecuted how many war crimes in WWII?
>

It depends on the definition. A few hundred?

It is interesting however that during the trial for the conspiracy aimed at
the assassination of Hitler "obeying orders" was obviously not a defence.

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From jrd1415 at gmail.com  Sat Aug 25 20:27:38 2012
From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis)
Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2012 13:27:38 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Manning and Assange
In-Reply-To: <CAPy8Rwa5r3zA=aiVgtcJsBC4Pi0=NY2_u9VuGaGrsBbVd_GgSA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB60VWujfj5TfF2Mc8RnS2Be-NgxdimWzPCjK0H_m3pX8A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPy8Rwa5r3zA=aiVgtcJsBC4Pi0=NY2_u9VuGaGrsBbVd_GgSA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHUTwkMGqisRHTe8owSY1ks5u7uFaNisrj6VjOyq20k1mmODiw@mail.gmail.com>

Some context re the Collateral Murder incident.

There have been disputes over whether the targeted men were armed, and
whether that justified the attack, some saying they had cameras, not
weapons, and others saying they had weapons.  This dispute is easily
cleared up.  The video clearly shows one compact AK and one loaded RPG
launcher.  It seems clear that the US Forces had a criteria -- rules
of engagement -- that held that armed men on the street could be
engaged.  So on that basis there appears to be "technical"
justification for the attack.

But that lacks context.  The incident occurred in the fiercest moment
of the Sunni/Shia "civil war" for control of Baghdad.  The Golden Dome
mosque bombing by al Quaeda in Iraq had set it off, and Sunnis and
Shia were being dragged off the street, tortured (ie harshly
interrogated), killed, and their bodies dumped, the dead numbering in
the hundreds per day.  Consequently, if one went out on the street, it
was essential to be armed for defensive purposes, as these men were.
To complete the context, it is clear from the video that the men were
lounging about and not at that moment involved in any sort of hostile
action.  The nearest hostilities involving US forces was several miles
away.

Also note that the targeting video had a range display which shows us
that the attack helicopters were over a mile away, well out of range
of the targeted men.  Note in that regard the delay between the firing
of the 30mm cannon -- you can hear it on the audio -- and the impact
of the rounds, 3-4 seconds later.

Finally, fog of war and all that, it's hard to see the subsequent
targeting of the man with the van who stops to help one of the
wounded, and is killed, as anything but criminal.  (Leaving out
entirely the issue of the unseen kids in the van.)

Regarding the legality of the invasion of Iraq: I am of the opinion
that Bush/Cheney intended to remove Saddam even before 911 gave them
the pretext, and that a close inspection of the laws appertaining --
Sovereignty clause and UN Charter -- show the entire business to have
been unlawful.  I would add that, in my view, the same legal basis for
the assessing the criminal nature of the invasion itself also indicts
every member of Congress who voted in favor of the AUMF and follow-on
war funding, and for every member of the US Military who participated
in the war (they take an oath to defend the Constitution, ie act
lawfully).

Finally, at long last, after Vietnam and now, years later Iraq,
Afghanistan, and the GWOT, I am an old man (inner child
notwithstanding).  I have come to the conclusion that the  law is
overwhelmed by war and swept away.  Replaced by a frightening
lawlessness that whispers the true nature of... leadership.

Can we please begin to design a system of governance that serves the
peace-desiring needs of regular people rather than the power-mad
sociopathic impulses of the "leadership"?

Best, Jeff Davis

  ...tell him that those of us who are
  heartbroken from never-ending grief
  caused by never-ending death caused
  by never-ending war are sick of his
  never-ending lies.
                    Missy Comely Beattie


From patrickkmclaren at gmail.com  Sat Aug 25 16:53:40 2012
From: patrickkmclaren at gmail.com (Patrick McLaren)
Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2012 12:53:40 -0400
Subject: [ExI] 3d printers for sale
In-Reply-To: <01e301cd82de$9958b2d0$cc0a1870$@att.net>
References: <01e301cd82de$9958b2d0$cc0a1870$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAAeGuv_-m3VEh2berUTR6zxDen3emQz2NC9=6gbvryC591TpUg@mail.gmail.com>

On Aug 25, 2012 12:42 PM, "spike" <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>
> Got a 3D printer three weeks ago, set it to print a copy of itself.

What make was the mother printer? RepRap, or Makerbot, or something else?
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From lubkin at unreasonable.com  Sat Aug 25 20:23:40 2012
From: lubkin at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin)
Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2012 16:23:40 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Neil Armstrong (1930-2012)
Message-ID: <201208252055.q7PKt7n7000580@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

http://www.globalnews.ca/world/6442703223/story.html

I'm glad that the most famous astronaut, like George Washington and
Lucius Quinctius Cincinnatus, did his duty, did it well, and then went home.

Ad astra, sir.

And the rest of us get back to making giant leaps already.


-- David.



From gsantostasi at gmail.com  Sat Aug 25 21:32:10 2012
From: gsantostasi at gmail.com (Giovanni Santostasi)
Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2012 16:32:10 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Neil Armstrong (1930-2012)
In-Reply-To: <201208252055.q7PKt7n7000580@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <201208252055.q7PKt7n7000580@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <CAL+RtPcehLHk+gwRwVBOxWDgz-wUSATQ+Gfoh7fAaLguKYYehw@mail.gmail.com>

I hate death, such a waste.
He was a great man.
Giovanni


On Sat, Aug 25, 2012 at 3:23 PM, David Lubkin <lubkin at unreasonable.com>wrote:

> http://www.globalnews.ca/**world/6442703223/story.html<http://www.globalnews.ca/world/6442703223/story.html>
>
> I'm glad that the most famous astronaut, like George Washington and
> Lucius Quinctius Cincinnatus, did his duty, did it well, and then went
> home.
>
> Ad astra, sir.
>
> And the rest of us get back to making giant leaps already.
>
>
> -- David.
>
> ______________________________**_________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/**mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-**chat<http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat>
>
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From atymes at gmail.com  Sat Aug 25 21:28:44 2012
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2012 14:28:44 -0700
Subject: [ExI] 3d printers for sale
In-Reply-To: <CAPy8RwYRs+0VmHpePNo9oQs5u4Q7fCRzLBh-j7aaoQACyp5rJA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <01e301cd82de$9958b2d0$cc0a1870$@att.net>
 <CAPy8RwYRs+0VmHpePNo9oQs5u4Q7fCRzLBh-j7aaoQACyp5rJA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNRBsWCKn+LNwP2bOM=Efvpddt6zzLhaRRMHiUHXAfdHVw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Aug 25, 2012 at 11:27 AM, Kelly Anderson <kellycoinguy at gmail.com> wrote:
> LOL. Seriously though, can't the 3d printers available today only
> print certain parts of themselves? I thought there were still some
> metal parts and such that had to be fabricated the old fashioned way.

Yep.  There is a lot of work being put into making those few
remaining pieces.

Part of it is, you have to find a set of tools that can make
themselves.  Anything computer-driven, for instance, could
only use chips that (in theory) the tools could themselves
make.  Most efforts seem to be missing that, and think that
getting to "99%" (by volume or mass) is substantial
progress toward 100%.


From nymphomation at gmail.com  Sat Aug 25 21:13:49 2012
From: nymphomation at gmail.com (*Nym*)
Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2012 22:13:49 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Neil Armstrong (1930-2012)
In-Reply-To: <201208252055.q7PKt7n7000580@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <201208252055.q7PKt7n7000580@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <CACMJz9-Qnw+uBznvocYABm97OTtxX7n_TL8-aRsRmtenEdsX9Q@mail.gmail.com>

On 25/08/2012, David Lubkin <lubkin at unreasonable.com> wrote:
> http://www.globalnews.ca/world/6442703223/story.html
>
> I'm glad that the most famous astronaut, like George Washington and
> Lucius Quinctius Cincinnatus, did his duty, did it well, and then went
> home.
>
> Ad astra, sir.
>
> And the rest of us get back to making giant leaps already.

'That's about all. I wonder if Man, that marvel of the universe, that glorious
paradox who has sent me to the unknown, still makes war against his brother
and lets his neighbor's children starve.'  Stretch Armstrong 1930-2012

Heavy splashings,
Thee Nymphomation


From atymes at gmail.com  Sat Aug 25 21:26:34 2012
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2012 14:26:34 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Neil Armstrong (1930-2012)
In-Reply-To: <201208252055.q7PKt7n7000580@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <201208252055.q7PKt7n7000580@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNTD7LK0ckqPyadJsRN6=ia32woP4xbn-tmCXvBa_SPfFA@mail.gmail.com>

Aww, man.

...and worse, he didn't live to see his doubts about private
space laid to rest before he was.

On Sat, Aug 25, 2012 at 1:23 PM, David Lubkin <lubkin at unreasonable.com> wrote:
> http://www.globalnews.ca/world/6442703223/story.html
>
> I'm glad that the most famous astronaut, like George Washington and
> Lucius Quinctius Cincinnatus, did his duty, did it well, and then went home.
>
> Ad astra, sir.
>
> And the rest of us get back to making giant leaps already.
>
>
> -- David.
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From brainwav93 at hotmail.com  Sun Aug 26 00:31:58 2012
From: brainwav93 at hotmail.com (T. Watts)
Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2012 18:31:58 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Neil Armstrong (1930-2012)
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNTD7LK0ckqPyadJsRN6=ia32woP4xbn-tmCXvBa_SPfFA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <201208252055.q7PKt7n7000580@andromeda.ziaspace.com>,
 <CALAdGNTD7LK0ckqPyadJsRN6=ia32woP4xbn-tmCXvBa_SPfFA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BLU159-W10885BFF8F360A4B21A092D3A30@phx.gbl>


He viciously trashed SpaceX before Congress, and I'm not sure I can ever forgive that.

> Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2012 14:26:34 -0700
> From: atymes at gmail.com
> To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> Subject: Re: [ExI] Neil Armstrong (1930-2012)
> 
> Aww, man.
> 
> ...and worse, he didn't live to see his doubts about private
> space laid to rest before he was.
> 
> On Sat, Aug 25, 2012 at 1:23 PM, David Lubkin <lubkin at unreasonable.com> wrote:
> > http://www.globalnews.ca/world/6442703223/story.html
> >
> > I'm glad that the most famous astronaut, like George Washington and
> > Lucius Quinctius Cincinnatus, did his duty, did it well, and then went home.
> >
> > Ad astra, sir.
> >
> > And the rest of us get back to making giant leaps already.
> >
> >
> > -- David.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > extropy-chat mailing list
> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
 		 	   		  
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From spike66 at att.net  Sun Aug 26 04:18:39 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2012 21:18:39 -0700
Subject: [ExI] 3d printers for sale
In-Reply-To: <CAAeGuv_-m3VEh2berUTR6zxDen3emQz2NC9=6gbvryC591TpUg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <01e301cd82de$9958b2d0$cc0a1870$@att.net>
 <CAAeGuv_-m3VEh2berUTR6zxDen3emQz2NC9=6gbvryC591TpUg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <02a101cd8341$def73bf0$9ce5b3d0$@att.net>

 

 

From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Patrick McLaren
? "spike" <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>
>>? Got a 3D printer three weeks ago, set it to print a copy of itself.

>?What make was the mother printer? RepRap, or Makerbot, or something else?

 

ACME, always ACME.  They make everything, just ask Wile E. Coyote.  It?s right in the name: American Company Making Everything.

spike

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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Sun Aug 26 11:32:13 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2012 13:32:13 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: [ZS] Project RES: #cryptoparties
In-Reply-To: <CANO8xMgQjq18=5o-80dKOQAk0ZTwY=StR=uSVp2fyQReiNK6-g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANO8xMgQjq18=5o-80dKOQAk0ZTwY=StR=uSVp2fyQReiNK6-g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a6VXOYFec4xh8idmsacBOJmJ1xHod3FBQaToMvxcEBsbw@mail.gmail.com>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Bryce Lynch <virtualadept at gmail.com>
Date: 26 August 2012 04:24
Subject: [ZS] Project RES: #cryptoparties
To: doctrinezero at googlegroups.com


In response to Australia's new data rentention laws, Telecomix has
begun spreading the meme and organizing cryptoparties - parties at
which privacy, anonymity, and cryptographic technologies are taught to
all and sundry - around the world.  I would recommend that, as part of
the privacy and anonymity parts of RES everyone look around for
cryptoparties being held in their local areas and attending to receive
training.  I'm organizing one in the DC metroplex, most likely at
HacDC for early September.

Realtime updates:
https://twitter.com/#!/search/?q=%23CryptoParty&src=hash<https://twitter.com/#%21/search/?q=%23CryptoParty&src=hash>

The wiki is a little thin at the moment but people are beginning to
capture information about local parties there:
http://www.cryptoparty.org/wiki/CryptoParty

--
The Doctor [412/724/301/703] [ZS]
https://drwho.virtadpt.net/
"I am everywhere."

--
--
Zero State mailing list:
http://groups.google.com/group/DoctrineZero






-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From pharos at gmail.com  Sun Aug 26 11:46:39 2012
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2012 12:46:39 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: [ZS] Project RES: #cryptoparties
In-Reply-To: <CAPoR7a6VXOYFec4xh8idmsacBOJmJ1xHod3FBQaToMvxcEBsbw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANO8xMgQjq18=5o-80dKOQAk0ZTwY=StR=uSVp2fyQReiNK6-g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a6VXOYFec4xh8idmsacBOJmJ1xHod3FBQaToMvxcEBsbw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armhkB_7m9rczWsV8TWpjCcoUc7oh5OYYtguPxw2zTM-x+A@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Aug 26, 2012 at 12:32 PM, Stefano Vaj wrote:
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Bryce Lynch <virtualadept at gmail.com>
> Date: 26 August 2012 04:24
> Subject: [ZS] Project RES: #cryptoparties
> To: doctrinezero at googlegroups.com
>
> In response to Australia's new data rentention laws, Telecomix has
> begun spreading the meme and organizing cryptoparties - parties at
> which privacy, anonymity, and cryptographic technologies are taught to
> all and sundry - around the world.  I would recommend that, as part of
> the privacy and anonymity parts of RES everyone look around for
> cryptoparties being held in their local areas and attending to receive
> training.  I'm organizing one in the DC metroplex, most likely at
> HacDC for early September.
>
> Realtime updates: https://twitter.com/#!/search/?q=%23CryptoParty&src=hash
>
> The wiki is a little thin at the moment but people are beginning to
> capture information about local parties there:
> http://www.cryptoparty.org/wiki/CryptoParty
>
>

You need to be a bit of an enthusiastic nerd to learn about privacy,
anonymity, and cryptographic technologies.  Most people can't be
bothered / don't think it is worth the effort.

There are a few basics which help a bit with privacy, but it starts
getting complicated / technical quite quickly. Most offices find that
security and convenience are trade-offs and convenience usually wins.


BillK


From anders at aleph.se  Sun Aug 26 12:21:38 2012
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2012 14:21:38 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: [ZS] Project RES: #cryptoparties
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armhkB_7m9rczWsV8TWpjCcoUc7oh5OYYtguPxw2zTM-x+A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANO8xMgQjq18=5o-80dKOQAk0ZTwY=StR=uSVp2fyQReiNK6-g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a6VXOYFec4xh8idmsacBOJmJ1xHod3FBQaToMvxcEBsbw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armhkB_7m9rczWsV8TWpjCcoUc7oh5OYYtguPxw2zTM-x+A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <503A14D2.7050209@aleph.se>

On 26/08/2012 13:46, BillK wrote:
> You need to be a bit of an enthusiastic nerd to learn about privacy, 
> anonymity, and cryptographic technologies. Most people can't be 
> bothered / don't think it is worth the effort. There are a few basics 
> which help a bit with privacy, but it starts getting complicated / 
> technical quite quickly. Most offices find that security and 
> convenience are trade-offs and convenience usually wins.

I recommend reading Bruce Schneier for a start. His sensible take on 
security and privacy is a good foundation for figuring out what 
protections you really want to take. Starting with tools is the wrong 
way around: first figure out what you want to protect yourself from.

For example, my personal threat profile is largely 1) drive-by-hacking 
from automated scripts and trojans, interested in using my computer as 
part of a botnet or steal credit card information, 2) crazies obsessed 
with transhumanism (I do have a few people who think i am part of the 
giant CIA-Sweden-Transhumanist mindcontrol project). The fact that 
various ISPs and data aggregation companies can guess my taste in 
pornography is not a problem unless they tell the crazies. That 
governments can mine my data is not much of a problem since I do my 
subversion in the open, often by talking at government agency functions. 
So that suggests that I should focus on making sure I don't gobble up 
trojans, and ensure I have a safely uncorrelated set of passwords for 
online services.

-- 
Anders Sandberg,
Future of Humanity Institute
Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University



From charlie.stross at gmail.com  Sun Aug 26 13:25:42 2012
From: charlie.stross at gmail.com (Charlie Stross)
Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2012 09:25:42 -0400
Subject: [ExI] 3d printers for sale
In-Reply-To: <CAPy8RwYRs+0VmHpePNo9oQs5u4Q7fCRzLBh-j7aaoQACyp5rJA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <01e301cd82de$9958b2d0$cc0a1870$@att.net>
 <CAPy8RwYRs+0VmHpePNo9oQs5u4Q7fCRzLBh-j7aaoQACyp5rJA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <39EB17F2-5940-4072-85DB-D319D7ECD18A@gmail.com>


On 25 Aug 2012, at 14:27, Kelly Anderson <kellycoinguy at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sat, Aug 25, 2012 at 10:28 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>> Got a 3D printer three weeks ago, set it to print a copy of itself.  Took
>> all day, but finished.  Next day, did it again.  And again the day after
>> that.  Now I have over a million 3D printers, no place to put them all.
>> Need to sell some cheap, quickly.  Otherwise tomorrow I will have two
>> million of them.
> 
> LOL. Seriously though, can't the 3d printers available today only
> print certain parts of themselves? I thought there were still some
> metal parts and such that had to be fabricated the old fashioned way.

That is indeed true, but ...

On Friday I got a tour of the MIT Media Lab. Wherein I saw no less than three (and possibly more) entirely different types of 3D printer -- specifically, additive depositional machines -- from the typical MakerBot/RepRap squirt-hot-gunk-onto-a-plate variety we're familiar with. For example: an additive lathe, for making axisymmetric objects (depositing rather than removing material around a central axial support), a 2D pin-grid (like an old dot-matrix printer head, only as a 2D grid rather than a line) designed to support a deformable sheet of substrate (molten solder, in this case), and so on. Not to mention a *really cool* hand-held grinding tool with 3D positional sensors; the demo was of a guy with no experience of sculpture turning a brick into a model of an elephant, with the tool moving its grinding head back out of the way if he tried to gouge too deep into the substrate.

There's more than one way to build a 3D printer, and I suspect our first fully self-reproducing ones will actually consist of a whole bunch of specialised printing tools that each have different tasks.


-- Charlie


From spike66 at att.net  Sun Aug 26 14:30:39 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2012 07:30:39 -0700
Subject: [ExI] 3d printers for sale
In-Reply-To: <39EB17F2-5940-4072-85DB-D319D7ECD18A@gmail.com>
References: <01e301cd82de$9958b2d0$cc0a1870$@att.net>
 <CAPy8RwYRs+0VmHpePNo9oQs5u4Q7fCRzLBh-j7aaoQACyp5rJA@mail.gmail.com>
 <39EB17F2-5940-4072-85DB-D319D7ECD18A@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <031901cd8397$5dcc68b0$19653a10$@att.net>

>... On Behalf Of Charlie Stross


> On Sat, Aug 25, 2012 at 10:28 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>> Got a 3D printer three weeks ago, set it to print a copy of itself.  
>> ...  Now I have over a million 3D printers, no place to put them all...

>...There's more than one way to build a 3D printer, and I suspect our first
fully self-reproducing ones will actually consist of a whole bunch of
specialised printing tools that each have different tasks.  -- Charlie
_______________________________________________

If we manage to make a Matrioshka Brain, the first step will likely be to
create some kind of device which can create both an MBrain node and a copy
of itself.  These self-replicators can work in teams, where each team member
specializes in a particular component of themselves. 

spike



From pharos at gmail.com  Sun Aug 26 14:51:08 2012
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2012 15:51:08 +0100
Subject: [ExI] 3d printers for sale
In-Reply-To: <01e301cd82de$9958b2d0$cc0a1870$@att.net>
References: <01e301cd82de$9958b2d0$cc0a1870$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAL_armgSRV6RUVudz4TOu7qQOWky9e209juiG3fmLbOV2F4_Bg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Aug 25, 2012 at 5:28 PM, spike wrote:
> Got a 3D printer three weeks ago, set it to print a copy of itself.  Took
> all day, but finished.  Next day, did it again.  And again the day after
> that.  Now I have over a million 3D printers, no place to put them all.
> Need to sell some cheap, quickly.  Otherwise tomorrow I will have two
> million of them.
>
>

I suppose you are feeding everything around you into the input hopper
for construction materials. So when you end up in a desert surrounded
by 3D printers, you will have to build a house from 3D printers. Then
start demolishing neighbours properties to feed the machines.

What happens if a neighbour starts doing the same as you? Do you feed
each others machines into your machines?
Where will it all end?


BillK


From spike66 at att.net  Sun Aug 26 14:51:14 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2012 07:51:14 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Neil Armstrong (1930-2012)
In-Reply-To: <BLU159-W10885BFF8F360A4B21A092D3A30@phx.gbl>
References: <201208252055.q7PKt7n7000580@andromeda.ziaspace.com>,
 <CALAdGNTD7LK0ckqPyadJsRN6=ia32woP4xbn-tmCXvBa_SPfFA@mail.gmail.com>
 <BLU159-W10885BFF8F360A4B21A092D3A30@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <031a01cd839a$3e27cb50$ba7761f0$@att.net>

 


> Subject: Re: [ExI] Neil Armstrong (1930-2012)
> 
> Aww, man.

 

 

http://gawker.com/5937870/nbc-news-reports-on-death-of-astronaut-neil-young

 

First it was Armstrong, then Neil Young.  Damn, I liked that guy.  Bad week
for Neils.  Somebody check on Neil Diamond, make sure he's OK.  

 

spike

 

 

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From spike66 at att.net  Sun Aug 26 16:05:13 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2012 09:05:13 -0700
Subject: [ExI] keynes vs hayek again, was:  RE:  3d printers for sale
Message-ID: <032b01cd83a4$94307010$bc915030$@att.net>


>... On Behalf Of BillK
Subject: Re: [ExI] 3d printers for sale

On Sat, Aug 25, 2012 at 5:28 PM, spike wrote:
>>... Got a 3D printer three weeks ago, set it to print a copy of itself...
>
>

>...What happens if a neighbour starts doing the same as you? Do you feed
each others machines into your machines?
Where will it all end?  BillK
_______________________________________________

If he tries that, I will throw him into the feeder for my printer and make
two copies of me, since he is twice my size.  Problem solved.  {8^D

BillK, I want you to read the following and comment, since I respect your
opinion and would like a British point of view.

Thought experiment: take two big industrialized nations that make war stuff,
such as the US and China, have them build an enormous naval fleet to go out
into the middle of the Pacific and fight it out.  With modern automated
controls, there is no reason to endanger actual humans, so make everything
robotic or remote controlled, all the guns, identification friend or foe,
all the communications between ships, everything.  These ships will be
constructed in shipyards all along the US west coast, and will be supplied
by subcontractors everywhere making stuff.  All unemployed people will be
taken in by something somewhere in this supply chain, even if they are
perfectly useless: they can be greeters like Walmart has, who only need to
smile and say good morning to the workers coming in, if they can't do
anything else at all.  In return, there is no more welfare, for there is no
need for it: anyone who wants a job can get one.  It doesn't pay much, but
it beats starvation.  Daycare is available on station, as a benefit, and as
soon as the kids hit about 15, they are given a job after their studies are
done for the day.

Instantly the unemployment rate drops from a stubborn 8% to nada, and the
tax money is flowing like a waterfall, which is good because the cost of all
this is appalling, but hey, the economy is steaming ahead as both countries,
and all the other countries who supply cars and furniture and all the other
stuff, have enormous emerging markets, since everyone is as busy as a hive
of bees on a spring day.  When the ships are all finished, they steam out to
the middle of the sea and blast each other until the whole robo-mess rests
on the bottom of the sea while each side sits at computer monitors on shore,
cheering for their own side.  When the smoke clears, there is nothing to
show for it but a big oil slicks where the robo-fleets once sailed.

So now they start on the next robo-olympics, as all that junk forms a very
expensive artificial reef.  Keynes would comment: This is brilliant.  Hayek
would comment: This is madness.

As the US is facing the expiration of the Bush tax cuts on 1 Jan 2013, we
have an across-the-board budget cut mandated to go with it.  It occurs to me
that we have developed a system that is analogous to the robo-demolition
derby described above: we build all this defense stuff, and eventually we
evolved an economic dependence on it, madness or otherwise.  Now the
political news is dominated by commentary on local economies which will
suffer if their piece of the supply line is cut.  Our congressional budget
office is forecasting a recession if the across-the-board cuts go forth.
Yet neither party is making an effort to stop it, and most Americans realize
that painful or not, the alternative is not sustainable.  We are living
waaaay beyond our means, but if all the cuts take place along with the tax
increases, we will be living only a few hundred billion beyond our means, a
fraction of the previous deficit. 

BillK, what would you say of that?  Anders and the various monster brains
present, what say ye?  Hardcore libertarians among us, commentary please?

spike



From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Sun Aug 26 16:24:29 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2012 18:24:29 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: [ZS] Project RES: #cryptoparties
In-Reply-To: <503A14D2.7050209@aleph.se>
References: <CANO8xMgQjq18=5o-80dKOQAk0ZTwY=StR=uSVp2fyQReiNK6-g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a6VXOYFec4xh8idmsacBOJmJ1xHod3FBQaToMvxcEBsbw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armhkB_7m9rczWsV8TWpjCcoUc7oh5OYYtguPxw2zTM-x+A@mail.gmail.com>
 <503A14D2.7050209@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a7v7GuFhJ+QkmEBd-54yHyWNVcjwXPRqtbpvyfZ8ob9ww@mail.gmail.com>

On 26 August 2012 14:21, Anders Sandberg <anders at aleph.se> wrote:

> For example, my personal threat profile is largely 1) drive-by-hacking
> from automated scripts and trojans, interested in using my computer as part
> of a botnet or steal credit card information, 2) crazies obsessed with
> transhumanism (I do have a few people who think i am part of the giant
> CIA-Sweden-Transhumanist mindcontrol project). The fact that various ISPs
> and data aggregation companies can guess my taste in pornography is not a
> problem unless they tell the crazies. That governments can mine my data is
> not much of a problem since I do my subversion in the open, often by
> talking at government agency functions. So that suggests that I should
> focus on making sure I don't gobble up trojans, and ensure I have a safely
> uncorrelated set of passwords for online services.
>

Can't say that I have much to hide or protect myself, and I regularly opt
for "all-public" and "lowest privacy level" everywhere on the basis of the
principle "do not put online any kind of information or statement that you
would like not to be in public domain now or in the future".

I have however two reasons for being relatively passionate about privacy,
or rather security, issues:
- the first, that adopting effective measures of such nature even if you do
not need them may be a "political" duty inasmuch as it may avoid that their
adoption becomes a "red flag" for sensitive content for legal and illegal
snoopers alike;
- the second, that as a practising lawyer, I have specific duties to offer
a proportionate degree of protection to secrets that are not mine in the
first place.

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Sun Aug 26 16:28:17 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2012 18:28:17 +0200
Subject: [ExI] First transhumanist MP in Europe, by Giulio Prisco
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a7jOc9pYAKmqy2-WWA8A-MMr2e4zTduz7-hKYgQm4wzxA@mail.gmail.com>

http://www.kurzweilai.net/italy-elects-first-transhumanist-mp

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From atymes at gmail.com  Sun Aug 26 17:03:54 2012
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2012 10:03:54 -0700
Subject: [ExI] 3d printers for sale
In-Reply-To: <39EB17F2-5940-4072-85DB-D319D7ECD18A@gmail.com>
References: <01e301cd82de$9958b2d0$cc0a1870$@att.net>
 <CAPy8RwYRs+0VmHpePNo9oQs5u4Q7fCRzLBh-j7aaoQACyp5rJA@mail.gmail.com>
 <39EB17F2-5940-4072-85DB-D319D7ECD18A@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNS5cmS=ydK0AbQY2=7FqKaFS++SQR-qPQGMRe_8d=uFxw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Aug 26, 2012 at 6:25 AM, Charlie Stross
<charlie.stross at gmail.com> wrote:
> There's more than one way to build a 3D printer, and I suspect our first fully self-reproducing ones will actually consist of a whole bunch of specialised printing tools that each have different tasks.

Agreed.  Rather than a single omnitool (which most 3D printers
seem to be modeled on), a more viable approach might better
resemble a miniature automated machine shop, similar to the
approach used to make a CNC lathe.

Alternately, accept oversized components in the 3D printer so
that the 3D printer can print them.  If the central processor is
a conductive-ink-on-paper thing half a meter on a side, rather
than a thumbnail-sized silicon-and-wires chip - can it still
handle the computational load at reasonable speeds?  If so,
then fine, the 3D printer itself is less portable, but mobility is
not its primary function.  Those and the motors seem to be the
elements that 3D printers have the most trouble printing.


From atymes at gmail.com  Sun Aug 26 17:09:06 2012
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2012 10:09:06 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Neil Armstrong (1930-2012)
In-Reply-To: <031a01cd839a$3e27cb50$ba7761f0$@att.net>
References: <201208252055.q7PKt7n7000580@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <CALAdGNTD7LK0ckqPyadJsRN6=ia32woP4xbn-tmCXvBa_SPfFA@mail.gmail.com>
 <BLU159-W10885BFF8F360A4B21A092D3A30@phx.gbl>
 <031a01cd839a$3e27cb50$ba7761f0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNS5ysE27zPoBBpCAenK+ytbiTSzL0K2=3c0kbFoCmXCZA@mail.gmail.com>

For those who didn't click the link: Neil Young yet lives;
there was a typo at first in the report on Armstrong's demise.

On Sun, Aug 26, 2012 at 7:51 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>> Subject: Re: [ExI] Neil Armstrong (1930-2012)
>>
>> Aww, man.
>
>
>
>
>
> http://gawker.com/5937870/nbc-news-reports-on-death-of-astronaut-neil-young
>
>
>
> First it was Armstrong, then Neil Young.  Damn, I liked that guy.  Bad week
> for Neils.  Somebody check on Neil Diamond, make sure he?s OK.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>



From pharos at gmail.com  Sun Aug 26 17:11:26 2012
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2012 18:11:26 +0100
Subject: [ExI] keynes vs hayek again, was: RE: 3d printers for sale
In-Reply-To: <032b01cd83a4$94307010$bc915030$@att.net>
References: <032b01cd83a4$94307010$bc915030$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAL_armhQbHW1rZ9Zkf9PdzkjEmjAOZm7GdQXKsmLdo3j_8y2ww@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Aug 26, 2012 at 5:05 PM, spike wrote:
<snip>
> So now they start on the next robo-olympics, as all that junk forms a very
> expensive artificial reef.  Keynes would comment: This is brilliant.  Hayek
> would comment: This is madness.
>
> As the US is facing the expiration of the Bush tax cuts on 1 Jan 2013, we
> have an across-the-board budget cut mandated to go with it.  It occurs to me
> that we have developed a system that is analogous to the robo-demolition
> derby described above: we build all this defense stuff, and eventually we
> evolved an economic dependence on it, madness or otherwise.  Now the
> political news is dominated by commentary on local economies which will
> suffer if their piece of the supply line is cut.  Our congressional budget
> office is forecasting a recession if the across-the-board cuts go forth.
> Yet neither party is making an effort to stop it, and most Americans realize
> that painful or not, the alternative is not sustainable.  We are living
> waaaay beyond our means, but if all the cuts take place along with the tax
> increases, we will be living only a few hundred billion beyond our means, a
> fraction of the previous deficit.
>
> BillK, what would you say of that?  Anders and the various monster brains
> present, what say ye?  Hardcore libertarians among us, commentary please?
>
>

I think you are talking about the Broken Window Fallacy.
<http://economics.about.com/od/warandtheeconomy/a/warsandeconomy.htm>

Yes, war production factories are busy and there is little
unemployment. But you get less spending on things like education,
health and entertainment. In general, people don't much enjoy living
and working under wartime conditions. (Understatement alert!).  :)

Predicting the effects of particular US tax increases is difficult.
With high unemployment and low-paying jobs, not many people are still
paying taxes. Same with Europe. All the frantic discussions are a bit
like rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic.


BillK


From lubkin at unreasonable.com  Sun Aug 26 17:31:36 2012
From: lubkin at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin)
Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2012 13:31:36 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Neil Armstrong (1930-2012)
In-Reply-To: <031a01cd839a$3e27cb50$ba7761f0$@att.net>
References: <201208252055.q7PKt7n7000580@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <CALAdGNTD7LK0ckqPyadJsRN6=ia32woP4xbn-tmCXvBa_SPfFA@mail.gmail.com>
 <BLU159-W10885BFF8F360A4B21A092D3A30@phx.gbl>
 <031a01cd839a$3e27cb50$ba7761f0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <201208261732.q7QHVxIv007554@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

Spike wrote:

>First it was Armstrong, then Neil Young.  Damn, I liked that 
>guy.  Bad week for Neils.  Somebody check on Neil Diamond, make sure he's OK.

Not a bad name. Just considering the ones I'd heard of, and skipping
over McNeil, Nielsen, Nilsson, Nigel, and Nelson, for no especial reason:

Neal Adams, Neil Armstrong, Neal Boortz, Neil Bush, Neil Cavuto, Neil
deGrassie Tyson, Neil Diamond, Niall Ferguson, Neil Gaiman, Neil Patrick
Harris, Diane Neal, Patricia Neal, Noel Neill, Sam Neill, Ryan O'Neal, Tatum
O'Neal, "April O'Neill", Eugene O'Neill, Gerard K. O'Neill, Jennifer O'Neill,
Tip O'Neill, Neil Postman, Neil Sedaka, Neil Simon, Neal Stephenson.

Of whom at least eight are involved in endeavors that are on-topic
for extropy-chat by my tally. My mother dated one of them.

(A game I've played for years is to rate a name by the fraction of positive
associations I have with it. Names aren't assigned at random. They are
indicative of age, socio-economic status, ethnic origin, religion, and
seem to influence how someone is treated, as a child or adult.)


-- David.



From atymes at gmail.com  Sun Aug 26 18:58:42 2012
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2012 11:58:42 -0700
Subject: [ExI] First transhumanist MP in Europe, by Giulio Prisco
In-Reply-To: <CAPoR7a7jOc9pYAKmqy2-WWA8A-MMr2e4zTduz7-hKYgQm4wzxA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPoR7a7jOc9pYAKmqy2-WWA8A-MMr2e4zTduz7-hKYgQm4wzxA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNSGDbvU-6giPtih0gCH01pvwYaw9KrbQ1KwS=CV5u97sQ@mail.gmail.com>

Nice.  Useful tips for any transhumanists running on this side
of the pond - in districts that are not afraid of science, anyway.

On Sun, Aug 26, 2012 at 9:28 AM, Stefano Vaj <stefano.vaj at gmail.com> wrote:
> http://www.kurzweilai.net/italy-elects-first-transhumanist-mp
>
> --
> Stefano Vaj
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>


From ilia.stambler at gmail.com  Sun Aug 26 19:09:50 2012
From: ilia.stambler at gmail.com (Ilia Stambler)
Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2012 22:09:50 +0300
Subject: [ExI] First transhumanist MP in Europe, by Giulio Prisco
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNSGDbvU-6giPtih0gCH01pvwYaw9KrbQ1KwS=CV5u97sQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPoR7a7jOc9pYAKmqy2-WWA8A-MMr2e4zTduz7-hKYgQm4wzxA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNSGDbvU-6giPtih0gCH01pvwYaw9KrbQ1KwS=CV5u97sQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJbwcBgf2e+oe=WrR2zcnwvfYDNfpvT-+3f7WPWByM3-VfSfog@mail.gmail.com>

Congratulations! An example to follow!
ilia

On Sun, Aug 26, 2012 at 9:58 PM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:

> Nice.  Useful tips for any transhumanists running on this side
> of the pond - in districts that are not afraid of science, anyway.
>
> On Sun, Aug 26, 2012 at 9:28 AM, Stefano Vaj <stefano.vaj at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > http://www.kurzweilai.net/italy-elects-first-transhumanist-mp
> >
> > --
> > Stefano Vaj
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > extropy-chat mailing list
> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> >
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Sun Aug 26 20:49:31 2012
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2012 13:49:31 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Manning and Assange
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB7U8fhsuY-8pzQ6KTHu33p8S6O-9p37vthxW6tS4dD29g@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Aug 26, 2012 at 5:00 AM,  Jeff Davis <jrd1415 at gmail.com> wrote:

snip

> Also note that the targeting video had a range display which shows us
> that the attack helicopters were over a mile away, well out of range
> of the targeted men.  Note in that regard the delay between the firing
> of the 30mm cannon -- you can hear it on the audio -- and the impact
> of the rounds, 3-4 seconds later.
>
> Finally, fog of war and all that, it's hard to see the subsequent
> targeting of the man with the van who stops to help one of the
> wounded, and is killed, as anything but criminal.  (Leaving out
> entirely the issue of the unseen kids in the van.)
>
> Regarding the legality of the invasion of Iraq: I am of the opinion
> that Bush/Cheney intended to remove Saddam even before 911 gave them
> the pretext, and that a close inspection of the laws appertaining --
> Sovereignty clause and UN Charter -- show the entire business to have
> been unlawful.  I would add that, in my view, the same legal basis for
> the assessing the criminal nature of the invasion itself also indicts
> every member of Congress who voted in favor of the AUMF and follow-on
> war funding, and for every member of the US Military who participated
> in the war (they take an oath to defend the Constitution, ie act
> lawfully).
>
> Finally, at long last, after Vietnam and now, years later Iraq,
> Afghanistan, and the GWOT, I am an old man (inner child
> notwithstanding).  I have come to the conclusion that the  law is
> overwhelmed by war and swept away.  Replaced by a frightening
> lawlessness that whispers the true nature of... leadership.
>
> Can we please begin to design a system of governance that serves the
> peace-desiring needs of regular people rather than the power-mad
> sociopathic impulses of the "leadership"?
>
> Best, Jeff Davis

Jeff, through the lens of evolutionary psychology, I think I
understand what causes wars and how to prevent them from happening.

Wars are the result of the build up of xenophobic memes, and that is
because humans have evolved to "turn up the gain" on such when they
detect a bleak future.  In the past, survival threats were almost
always from a shortage of food, and killing neighbors to take theirs
was the universally correct solution.

Here we differ from chimps in that chimps are *always* in war mode and
kill members of neighboring bands whenever they can.  With humans,
this depends on circumstances that flip a behavioral switch so
peaceful interactions between bands were possible.

It is *possible* episodic (rather than constant) war was part of the
evolution of concealed ovulation.  Young female chimps transfer to new
groups (and are accepted) when they are in visible estrous.  It has
probably been a long time since females of the line that led to humans
did that.

On this list I posted an analysis of why the psychological traits
leading to warfare (and the support of crazy leaders) were maintained.

Keeping war mode turned off is conceptually easy, just keep the income
per capita rising slightly or at least not declining and especially
don't let the future look bleak.

Implementing this prescription is much  harder.

I work on that (cheap energy) but there is little interest.  Perhaps
it is to many steps from the goal of reducing wars for people to
follow.

Keith


From anders at aleph.se  Sun Aug 26 21:45:15 2012
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2012 22:45:15 +0100
Subject: [ExI] keynes vs hayek again, was: RE: 3d printers for sale
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armhQbHW1rZ9Zkf9PdzkjEmjAOZm7GdQXKsmLdo3j_8y2ww@mail.gmail.com>
References: <032b01cd83a4$94307010$bc915030$@att.net>
 <CAL_armhQbHW1rZ9Zkf9PdzkjEmjAOZm7GdQXKsmLdo3j_8y2ww@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <503A98EB.50506@aleph.se>

On 26/08/2012 18:11, BillK wrote:
> I think you are talking about the Broken Window Fallacy. 

Exactly what came into my mind when I saw Spikes post. Making stuff in 
order to blow it up is not as effective as making stuff that is of 
value. If the alternative is not making stuff at all, then it might make 
sense.

(The orthodox libertarian answer is of course that the Market will sort 
things out if the government just got out of the way. Unfortunately 100% 
employment is likely not market efficient. )

Then again, remote control warfare is an interesting issue. The US is 
clearly going that way, and most other nations follow. There might still 
be a need for guy with a rifle on the ground, but given time even he 
might be represented by a telepresence robot. The worrying issue is that 
this also enables tele-warfare for everybody. So far I have never gotten 
any answer when I ask defence people about what they do when the first 
UAV sweeps down Fifth Avenue. While tele-warfare robot-on-robot is fine 
entertainment and produces at least broken window stimuli for the 
economy, tele-warfare robot-on-strategic targets is bad news all around. 
It is a bit like cyberwarfare but in the physical world: hard to trace 
(and hence to assign blame), potentially a nasty first mover surprise, 
and potentially relatively cheap. What do we do when an unknown party 
physically wrecks key power stations? Or is the solution air defense not 
just on housing blocks near olympic arenas but *everywhere*? The risk is 
of course that we could get something like Spikes scenario for real, but 
now putting nasty hardware everywhere (and then spending remaining 
resources making sure it is not hacked and turned against us).

-- 
Anders Sandberg,
Future of Humanity Institute
Oxford Martin School
Faculty of Philosophy
Oxford University



From spike66 at att.net  Sun Aug 26 21:32:32 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2012 14:32:32 -0700
Subject: [ExI] First transhumanist MP in Europe, by Giulio Prisco
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNSGDbvU-6giPtih0gCH01pvwYaw9KrbQ1KwS=CV5u97sQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPoR7a7jOc9pYAKmqy2-WWA8A-MMr2e4zTduz7-hKYgQm4wzxA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNSGDbvU-6giPtih0gCH01pvwYaw9KrbQ1KwS=CV5u97sQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <037e01cd83d2$4dbb1710$e9314530$@att.net>


>... On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes
Subject: Re: [ExI] First transhumanist MP in Europe, by Giulio Prisco

>...Nice.  Useful tips for any transhumanists running on this side of the
pond - in districts that are not afraid of science, anyway.


Unfortunately all our districts seem to be afraid of science.  

Some are worse than others.  We have had religious fundamentalists opposing
the teaching of evolution at least since Darwin, but that isn't what really
worries me.  What I am seeing is that somehow the notion of evolution is
being equated with racism.  It seems like this far down the road, Darwin is
under attack from both sides of the political spectrum.

spike 



From anders at aleph.se  Sun Aug 26 21:56:03 2012
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2012 22:56:03 +0100
Subject: [ExI] 3d printers for sale
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNS5cmS=ydK0AbQY2=7FqKaFS++SQR-qPQGMRe_8d=uFxw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <01e301cd82de$9958b2d0$cc0a1870$@att.net>
 <CAPy8RwYRs+0VmHpePNo9oQs5u4Q7fCRzLBh-j7aaoQACyp5rJA@mail.gmail.com>
 <39EB17F2-5940-4072-85DB-D319D7ECD18A@gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNS5cmS=ydK0AbQY2=7FqKaFS++SQR-qPQGMRe_8d=uFxw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <503A9B73.3020405@aleph.se>

On 26/08/2012 18:03, Adrian Tymes wrote:
> On Sun, Aug 26, 2012 at 6:25 AM, Charlie Stross
> <charlie.stross at gmail.com> wrote:
>> There's more than one way to build a 3D printer, and I suspect our first fully self-reproducing ones will actually consist of a whole bunch of specialised printing tools that each have different tasks.
> Agreed.  Rather than a single omnitool (which most 3D printers
> seem to be modeled on), a more viable approach might better
> resemble a miniature automated machine shop, similar to the
> approach used to make a CNC lathe.

I wonder about the pricetag. The nice thing about current 3D 
manufacturing devices is that they can do a lot of things with no need 
to add multiple heads, which keeps complexity down a lot. Adding 
multiple tooltips sounds like it would not just baloon the complexity of 
control, but also require a lot of tool-tool interaction. Laser cutters 
do not play well with heated foundations for squirting plastics.

> Alternately, accept oversized components in the 3D printer so
> that the 3D printer can print them.  If the central processor is
> a conductive-ink-on-paper thing half a meter on a side, rather
> than a thumbnail-sized silicon-and-wires chip - can it still
> handle the computational load at reasonable speeds?  If so,
> then fine, the 3D printer itself is less portable, but mobility is
> not its primary function.  Those and the motors seem to be the
> elements that 3D printers have the most trouble printing.

There are economies of scale that I suspect will beat 3D printers on a 
lot of domains. They are good for unique goods or ones where 
manufacturing time is of little issue: they rely on cheap high-precision 
stepping motors that are likely best made in large batches by a 
specialised factory. Or maybe a device that can be 3D printed to make 
them? Full closure doesn't need to imply that the replicator does 
everything within itself, it might make symbiotic machines that make 
special parts for it. A bit like an insect queen (general assembler) and 
the different castes (specialized in providing particular parts).


-- 
Anders Sandberg,
Future of Humanity Institute
Oxford Martin School
Faculty of Philosophy
Oxford University



From brainwav93 at hotmail.com  Sun Aug 26 22:10:22 2012
From: brainwav93 at hotmail.com (T. Watts)
Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2012 16:10:22 -0600
Subject: [ExI] keynes vs hayek again, was:  RE:  3d printers for sale
In-Reply-To: <032b01cd83a4$94307010$bc915030$@att.net>
References: <032b01cd83a4$94307010$bc915030$@att.net>
Message-ID: <BLU159-W4189A94F4298819A771568D3A30@phx.gbl>


A) Robot ships will be built by robots. Most associated human jobs will be skilled; Joe Sixpack need not apply, unless he can get a technical degree or certificate.
B) You have triggered the Bastiat broken window fallacy. 
C) Military Keynesianism is even less efficient than normal Keynesianism, if such a thing is possible; military spending has a very high capital-to-labor ratio, it's expensive, for very little return in the way of jobs. 

> From: spike66 at att.net
> To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2012 09:05:13 -0700
> Subject: [ExI] keynes vs hayek again, was:  RE:  3d printers for sale
> 
> 
> >... On Behalf Of BillK
> Subject: Re: [ExI] 3d printers for sale
> 
> On Sat, Aug 25, 2012 at 5:28 PM, spike wrote:
> >>... Got a 3D printer three weeks ago, set it to print a copy of itself...
> >
> >
> 
> >...What happens if a neighbour starts doing the same as you? Do you feed
> each others machines into your machines?
> Where will it all end?  BillK
> _______________________________________________
> 
> If he tries that, I will throw him into the feeder for my printer and make
> two copies of me, since he is twice my size.  Problem solved.  {8^D
> 
> BillK, I want you to read the following and comment, since I respect your
> opinion and would like a British point of view.
> 
> Thought experiment: take two big industrialized nations that make war stuff,
> such as the US and China, have them build an enormous naval fleet to go out
> into the middle of the Pacific and fight it out.  With modern automated
> controls, there is no reason to endanger actual humans, so make everything
> robotic or remote controlled, all the guns, identification friend or foe,
> all the communications between ships, everything.  These ships will be
> constructed in shipyards all along the US west coast, and will be supplied
> by subcontractors everywhere making stuff.  All unemployed people will be
> taken in by something somewhere in this supply chain, even if they are
> perfectly useless: they can be greeters like Walmart has, who only need to
> smile and say good morning to the workers coming in, if they can't do
> anything else at all.  In return, there is no more welfare, for there is no
> need for it: anyone who wants a job can get one.  It doesn't pay much, but
> it beats starvation.  Daycare is available on station, as a benefit, and as
> soon as the kids hit about 15, they are given a job after their studies are
> done for the day.
> 
> Instantly the unemployment rate drops from a stubborn 8% to nada, and the
> tax money is flowing like a waterfall, which is good because the cost of all
> this is appalling, but hey, the economy is steaming ahead as both countries,
> and all the other countries who supply cars and furniture and all the other
> stuff, have enormous emerging markets, since everyone is as busy as a hive
> of bees on a spring day.  When the ships are all finished, they steam out to
> the middle of the sea and blast each other until the whole robo-mess rests
> on the bottom of the sea while each side sits at computer monitors on shore,
> cheering for their own side.  When the smoke clears, there is nothing to
> show for it but a big oil slicks where the robo-fleets once sailed.
> 
> So now they start on the next robo-olympics, as all that junk forms a very
> expensive artificial reef.  Keynes would comment: This is brilliant.  Hayek
> would comment: This is madness.
> 
> As the US is facing the expiration of the Bush tax cuts on 1 Jan 2013, we
> have an across-the-board budget cut mandated to go with it.  It occurs to me
> that we have developed a system that is analogous to the robo-demolition
> derby described above: we build all this defense stuff, and eventually we
> evolved an economic dependence on it, madness or otherwise.  Now the
> political news is dominated by commentary on local economies which will
> suffer if their piece of the supply line is cut.  Our congressional budget
> office is forecasting a recession if the across-the-board cuts go forth.
> Yet neither party is making an effort to stop it, and most Americans realize
> that painful or not, the alternative is not sustainable.  We are living
> waaaay beyond our means, but if all the cuts take place along with the tax
> increases, we will be living only a few hundred billion beyond our means, a
> fraction of the previous deficit. 
> 
> BillK, what would you say of that?  Anders and the various monster brains
> present, what say ye?  Hardcore libertarians among us, commentary please?
> 
> spike
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
 		 	   		  
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From mrjones2020 at gmail.com  Sun Aug 26 23:32:09 2012
From: mrjones2020 at gmail.com (J.R. Jones)
Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2012 19:32:09 -0400
Subject: [ExI] keynes vs hayek again, was: RE: 3d printers for sale
In-Reply-To: <032b01cd83a4$94307010$bc915030$@att.net>
References: <032b01cd83a4$94307010$bc915030$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CADDVf2+M-ubHwOco-re86QNwfs14ufJNdo056CrApkT=t-Cmvw@mail.gmail.com>

Why can't we build infrastructure, education, aquaculture, etc.

If you want to blow stuff up from behind a monitor I can recommend some pc
gaming titles you'd love.

Seriously though. Money is economic blood flow. We put patients on bypass
until normal blood flow can be restored, a modern day 'new deal' is what
was necessary.

Instead of going to public works or the military, it all went to the
bankers and wall street.  The huge sums of money were spent, they just
weren't circulated.
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From atymes at gmail.com  Mon Aug 27 00:11:08 2012
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2012 17:11:08 -0700
Subject: [ExI] First transhumanist MP in Europe, by Giulio Prisco
In-Reply-To: <037e01cd83d2$4dbb1710$e9314530$@att.net>
References: <CAPoR7a7jOc9pYAKmqy2-WWA8A-MMr2e4zTduz7-hKYgQm4wzxA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNSGDbvU-6giPtih0gCH01pvwYaw9KrbQ1KwS=CV5u97sQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <037e01cd83d2$4dbb1710$e9314530$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNRiMrjPGk0dSNLtufYVfKF5UhkPUuHXbK5Nq2ozVLJqjA@mail.gmail.com>

>>...Nice.  Useful tips for any transhumanists running on this side of the
> pond - in districts that are not afraid of science, anyway.
>
> Unfortunately all our districts seem to be afraid of science.
>
> Some are worse than others.  We have had religious fundamentalists opposing
> the teaching of evolution at least since Darwin, but that isn't what really
> worries me.  What I am seeing is that somehow the notion of evolution is
> being equated with racism.  It seems like this far down the road, Darwin is
> under attack from both sides of the political spectrum.

I have to wonder, what would happen if more candidates openly
in favor of science came forward and ran?  Not even necessarily
to win, just to run and get media attention - which would probably
require running as a major party candidate (but then, if you don't
win, they can't expect as many favors from you in exchange for
sponsoring you).


From atymes at gmail.com  Mon Aug 27 00:40:28 2012
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2012 17:40:28 -0700
Subject: [ExI] 3d printers for sale
In-Reply-To: <503A9B73.3020405@aleph.se>
References: <01e301cd82de$9958b2d0$cc0a1870$@att.net>
 <CAPy8RwYRs+0VmHpePNo9oQs5u4Q7fCRzLBh-j7aaoQACyp5rJA@mail.gmail.com>
 <39EB17F2-5940-4072-85DB-D319D7ECD18A@gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNS5cmS=ydK0AbQY2=7FqKaFS++SQR-qPQGMRe_8d=uFxw@mail.gmail.com>
 <503A9B73.3020405@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNT8dXgt=dMPHt4dPurCFfUM297jkcRpkOpSVmZHundX-g@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Aug 26, 2012 at 2:56 PM, Anders Sandberg <anders at aleph.se> wrote:
> On 26/08/2012 18:03, Adrian Tymes wrote:
>> On Sun, Aug 26, 2012 at 6:25 AM, Charlie Stross
>> <charlie.stross at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> There's more than one way to build a 3D printer, and I suspect our first
>>> fully self-reproducing ones will actually consist of a whole bunch of
>>> specialised printing tools that each have different tasks.
>>
>> Agreed.  Rather than a single omnitool (which most 3D printers
>> seem to be modeled on), a more viable approach might better
>> resemble a miniature automated machine shop, similar to the
>> approach used to make a CNC lathe.
>
> I wonder about the pricetag. The nice thing about current 3D manufacturing
> devices is that they can do a lot of things with no need to add multiple
> heads, which keeps complexity down a lot. Adding multiple tooltips sounds
> like it would not just baloon the complexity of control, but also require a
> lot of tool-tool interaction. Laser cutters do not play well with heated
> foundations for squirting plastics.

Oh, aye, this would not be the cheapest of approaches - which is
why it is not often pursued.

What I am wondering is, might it be necessary anyway?  There's
been a lot of work into one-head approaches and we still don't
have something that can 100% reproduce itself.  "More expensive"
does not mean "impossible", but "not possible with this tool set"
does mean "impossible with this tool set".

>> Alternately, accept oversized components in the 3D printer so
>> that the 3D printer can print them.  If the central processor is
>> a conductive-ink-on-paper thing half a meter on a side, rather
>> than a thumbnail-sized silicon-and-wires chip - can it still
>> handle the computational load at reasonable speeds?  If so,
>> then fine, the 3D printer itself is less portable, but mobility is
>> not its primary function.  Those and the motors seem to be the
>> elements that 3D printers have the most trouble printing.
>
> There are economies of scale that I suspect will beat 3D printers on a lot
> of domains. They are good for unique goods or ones where manufacturing time
> is of little issue: they rely on cheap high-precision stepping motors that
> are likely best made in large batches by a specialised factory. Or maybe a
> device that can be 3D printed to make them? Full closure doesn't need to
> imply that the replicator does everything within itself, it might make
> symbiotic machines that make special parts for it. A bit like an insect
> queen (general assembler) and the different castes (specialized in providing
> particular parts).

But then those symbiotic machines, while they are working, are part
of the replicator insofar as they are helping to create the final product.
And, of course, if those symbiotic machines make sense, they might
make even better sense as permanent parts of the replicator - say, as
different heads.


From anders at aleph.se  Mon Aug 27 08:07:56 2012
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2012 09:07:56 +0100
Subject: [ExI] 3d printers for sale
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNT8dXgt=dMPHt4dPurCFfUM297jkcRpkOpSVmZHundX-g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <01e301cd82de$9958b2d0$cc0a1870$@att.net>
 <CAPy8RwYRs+0VmHpePNo9oQs5u4Q7fCRzLBh-j7aaoQACyp5rJA@mail.gmail.com>
 <39EB17F2-5940-4072-85DB-D319D7ECD18A@gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNS5cmS=ydK0AbQY2=7FqKaFS++SQR-qPQGMRe_8d=uFxw@mail.gmail.com>
 <503A9B73.3020405@aleph.se>
 <CALAdGNT8dXgt=dMPHt4dPurCFfUM297jkcRpkOpSVmZHundX-g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <503B2ADC.8060900@aleph.se>


On 27/08/2012 01:40, Adrian Tymes wrote:
> But then those symbiotic machines, while they are working, are part of 
> the replicator insofar as they are helping to create the final 
> product. And, of course, if those symbiotic machines make sense, they 
> might make even better sense as permanent parts of the replicator - 
> say, as different heads.

90% of the time you will not be using the symbiotic machine part. It 
will be too specialised. So it would be cumbersome to actually have it a 
part of the core replicator. Think of it as one of Bruce Sterling's 
spimes instead: a smart object instantiated whenever needed, and then 
recycled (or stored out of the way).

-- 
Anders Sandberg,
Future of Humanity Institute
Oxford Martin School
Faculty of Philosophy
Oxford University



From pharos at gmail.com  Mon Aug 27 10:41:22 2012
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2012 11:41:22 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: [ZS] Project RES: #cryptoparties
In-Reply-To: <503A14D2.7050209@aleph.se>
References: <CANO8xMgQjq18=5o-80dKOQAk0ZTwY=StR=uSVp2fyQReiNK6-g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a6VXOYFec4xh8idmsacBOJmJ1xHod3FBQaToMvxcEBsbw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armhkB_7m9rczWsV8TWpjCcoUc7oh5OYYtguPxw2zTM-x+A@mail.gmail.com>
 <503A14D2.7050209@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <CAL_armg1nidgweR9tMU0QUsGo5sQ=ZVSn=nt1Z72bR4POTK6vg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Aug 26, 2012 at 1:21 PM, Anders Sandberg wrote:
> I recommend reading Bruce Schneier for a start. His sensible take on
> security and privacy is a good foundation for figuring out what protections
> you really want to take. Starting with tools is the wrong way around: first
> figure out what you want to protect yourself from.
>

Yes, I read Schneier, but then I'm a security nerd!  :)
Your more average computer user would quickly get bored. A lot of what
he talks about has little relevance to day-to-day web browsing.


> For example, my personal threat profile is largely 1) drive-by-hacking from
> automated scripts and trojans, interested in using my computer as part of a
> botnet or steal credit card information, 2) crazies obsessed with
> transhumanism (I do have a few people who think i am part of the giant
> CIA-Sweden-Transhumanist mindcontrol project). The fact that various ISPs
> and data aggregation companies can guess my taste in pornography is not a
> problem unless they tell the crazies. That governments can mine my data is
> not much of a problem since I do my subversion in the open, often by talking
> at government agency functions. So that suggests that I should focus on
> making sure I don't gobble up trojans, and ensure I have a safely
> uncorrelated set of passwords for online services.
>
>

That view is the wrong way round for non-techy users. For them you
need security systems that are invisible and will work in spite of all
their daft behaviour.
(Useful even for experts, as everybody makes mistakes sometimes)  :)


That's why I recommend such people get an Apple computer. At a stroke
all the millions of Windows attacks disappear. No viruses, trojans,
drive-by hacks, etc.
(Yes, I know that a few Apple viruses do exist, but in practice they
are still extremely rare).

Apple computers are more expensive, so if price is a problem, then I
install a user-friendly Linux system such as Linux Mint. If they want
a really cheap old computer then there are versions of Linux such as
Puppy Linux which will run fast on old computers.  Windows viruses
have no effect on Linux computers.
(Although Linux and Apple pcs can pass Windows viruses on to Windows
users via infected files).

For a small business, they should have an old diskless computer
dedicated for online banking *only* and boot it from a Linux CD. The
CD cannot be infected. If any infection does get in the computer it
will be wiped clean by a reboot.

There are many extensions that can be added to Firefox and Chrome to
improve privacy and security, but some require user training. So I
don't automatically recommend installing everything as for some people
it would make their browser too difficult to use. As users learn more,
security can gradually be increased if they show interest.

There are many web sites providing security and privacy information.
<http://bypass-censorship.org/>
<https://www.techsupportalert.com/content/how-stay-safe-while-online.htm-0>
<https://www.techsupportalert.com/content/how-protect-your-online-privacy.htm>
<https://www.techsupportalert.com/content/how-harden-your-browser-against-malware-and-privacy-concerns.htm>
<http://www.digitizd.com/2012/07/27/10-firefox-extensions-for-security-anonymous-browsing/>

BillK


From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Mon Aug 27 12:36:43 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2012 14:36:43 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Manning and Assange
In-Reply-To: <CAHUTwkMGqisRHTe8owSY1ks5u7uFaNisrj6VjOyq20k1mmODiw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB60VWujfj5TfF2Mc8RnS2Be-NgxdimWzPCjK0H_m3pX8A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPy8Rwa5r3zA=aiVgtcJsBC4Pi0=NY2_u9VuGaGrsBbVd_GgSA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHUTwkMGqisRHTe8owSY1ks5u7uFaNisrj6VjOyq20k1mmODiw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a6AFT385udWU_yYiih5ZYKSEvrpmyk6kSj_FXaahZUGjw@mail.gmail.com>

On 25 August 2012 22:27, Jeff Davis <jrd1415 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Regarding the legality of the invasion of Iraq: I am of the opinion
> that Bush/Cheney intended to remove Saddam even before 911 gave them
> the pretext, and that a close inspection of the laws appertaining --
> Sovereignty clause and UN Charter -- show the entire business to have
> been unlawful.  I would add that, in my view, the same legal basis for
> the assessing the criminal nature of the invasion itself also indicts
> every member of Congress who voted in favor of the AUMF and follow-on
> war funding, and for every member of the US Military who participated
> in the war (they take an oath to defend the Constitution, ie act
> lawfully).
>
> Finally, at long last, after Vietnam and now, years later Iraq,
> Afghanistan, and the GWOT, I am an old man (inner child
> notwithstanding).  I have come to the conclusion that the  law is
> overwhelmed by war and swept away.  Replaced by a frightening
> lawlessness that whispers the true nature of... leadership.
>

According to the time-honoured tradition of international law, wars are for
sovereign states ultimately discretionary, and they are only bound to
respect a few customary and conventional rules during their course.

It *is* however internationally (besides possibly internally) illegal to
wage war without declaring it, or to pretend that the operations are not
acts war but of military reprisals or international policing, or to breach
war laws, or to interfere with the internal business of another foreign
state.

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From charlie.stross at gmail.com  Mon Aug 27 13:22:39 2012
From: charlie.stross at gmail.com (Charlie Stross)
Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2012 09:22:39 -0400
Subject: [ExI] keynes vs hayek again, was:  RE:  3d printers for sale
In-Reply-To: <032b01cd83a4$94307010$bc915030$@att.net>
References: <032b01cd83a4$94307010$bc915030$@att.net>
Message-ID: <8F125AFB-DEFA-409D-992E-5F84FC0C38B8@gmail.com>


On 26 Aug 2012, at 12:05, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

> 
> Thought experiment: take two big industrialized nations that make war stuff,
> such as the US and China, have them build an enormous naval fleet to go out
> into the middle of the Pacific and fight it out. 
...

>   All unemployed people will be
> taken in by something somewhere in this supply chain, even if they are
> perfectly useless:

...

> Instantly the unemployment rate drops from a stubborn 8% to nada, and the
> tax money is flowing like a waterfall,

Let me enumerate some of the ways this doesn't work.

Firstly: the definition of "unemployed people" is a movable feast, even if we examine people of working age. Is somebody in a hospital bed with locked-in syndrome unemployed? How about early-onset dementia? Or paranoid schizophrenia? Or someone with terminal cancer, or post-viral syndrome (some days they can work, other days they can barely get out of bed due to fatigue and muscle pain).

Yes, these are all medical examples. But medicine is a big part of social security in the civilized world.

How about people with personality disorders who you might not *want* to have working for you, as an employer? Do you really want to put psychopaths in a public-facing role? Or employ habitual thieves, or narcissistic managers? 

But let's dodge those issues. Let's look at "unemployment" figures. Essentially, an unemployment figure below 2.5% corresponds to 100% employment. Given average employment tenure of 3 years (or 150 weeks), 2.5% unemployment corresponds to 3 weeks per worker per average employment -- i.e. three weeks on average while changing jobs. If you want to reduce unemployment below 2.5% you're effectively reducing the liquidity of your labour market to the point where employers can't get enough bodies to fill all their niches.

If you look at the actual figures for employment in the developed world, the actual fully-utilized employment rate for people aged between 16 and 65 -- roughly, people of working age with full-time jobs that utilize their skills appropriately -- tends to peak around 50%. If this sounds low to you, consider parents with small children, people changing jobs, people pursuing higher education,  PhD's flipping burgers in McD's (they're certainly not fully employed, even if they're working 60 hours a week -- there are a LOT of people employed in jobs well beneath their training and abilities), people in jail (often for victimless crimes, or due to being picked up as a result of mental illness -- they need hospital beds, not jail cells), people in hospital, and so on. 

Frankly, any modern society needs some sort of social safety net in order to avoid murdering its population in windrows. We learned this the hard way during the industrialization process in the 19th century, and got a reminder course during the 1930s; seems we need to re-learn the lesson. The key problem is how to make a social security net that works humanely while minimizing its drag on the productive sector -- however we define that. (Are investment brokers who award themselves megadollar bonuses for throwing darts at a stock chart while blindfold "productive"? Our current system values them as such, regardless of outcomes ...)



-- Charlie


From charlie.stross at gmail.com  Mon Aug 27 13:43:46 2012
From: charlie.stross at gmail.com (Charlie Stross)
Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2012 09:43:46 -0400
Subject: [ExI] keynes vs hayek again, was:  RE:  3d printers for sale
In-Reply-To: <BLU159-W4189A94F4298819A771568D3A30@phx.gbl>
References: <032b01cd83a4$94307010$bc915030$@att.net>
 <BLU159-W4189A94F4298819A771568D3A30@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <EAF83ED9-DDE0-4B75-810F-DB2D1B51CCB0@gmail.com>


On 26 Aug 2012, at 18:10, T. Watts <brainwav93 at hotmail.com> wrote:

> A) Robot ships will be built by robots. Most associated human jobs will be skilled; Joe Sixpack need not apply, unless he can get a technical degree or certificate.
> 
> B) You have triggered the Bastiat broken window fallacy. 
> 
> C) Military Keynesianism is even less efficient than normal Keynesianism, if such a thing is possible; military spending has a very high capital-to-labor ratio, it's expensive, for very little return in the way of jobs. 

If you want a Kenysian stimulus program that generates employment, then it needs to focus on some sector which is labour intensive and not amenable to automation (or rather, where the cost of automation vastly exceeds the cost of using trained labour).

Hairdressing: you *can't* reduce the time for a haircut (unless you switch to shaving) and the imaging and robotic systems needed to effectively identify hair growth patterns on unique and different individuals and come up with an aesthetically pleasing hairstyle based on same is challenging, to say the least.

Ditto cooking, waiting at tables, and other service sector jobs. We can maybe automate some cleaning, but short of full AI there's still going to be a role for humans in most of these areas.

The big one is of course personal care. And the increase in the proportion of the population living into old age suggests a great Keynsian stimulus program (with the caveat that if we crack the senescence problem it goes away fast): decent staffing levels for assisted living/old age homes would provide a *huge* employment opportunity, and deliver a significantly increased quality of life for the elderly as a side-effect.

Plus, I think that caring for people who need help is a more humane and useful source of make-work than building killer drones.



-- Charlie


From bbenzai at yahoo.com  Mon Aug 27 13:46:16 2012
From: bbenzai at yahoo.com (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2012 06:46:16 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: [ZS] Project RES: #cryptoparties
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1346068801.13615.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <1346075176.93875.YahooMailClassic@web114416.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:


> There are many web sites providing security and privacy
> information.
> <http://bypass-censorship.org/>
> <https://www.techsupportalert.com/content/how-stay-safe-while-online.htm-0>
> <https://www.techsupportalert.com/content/how-protect-your-online-privacy.htm>
> <https://www.techsupportalert.com/content/how-harden-your-browser-against-malware-and-privacy-concerns.htm>
> <http://www.digitizd.com/2012/07/27/10-firefox-extensions-for-security-anonymous-browsing/>


Hilarious that every one of those links tries to set cookies and/or brings up warnings about insecure content.

Ben Zaiboc



From pharos at gmail.com  Mon Aug 27 14:14:21 2012
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2012 15:14:21 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: [ZS] Project RES: #cryptoparties
In-Reply-To: <1346075176.93875.YahooMailClassic@web114416.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.1.1346068801.13615.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <1346075176.93875.YahooMailClassic@web114416.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armgdARO9sx+sRxYRwUwKZf-JjoAxk9w3MxNgM+a-7iSQjw@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Aug 27, 2012 at 2:46 PM, Ben Zaiboc wrote:
> Hilarious that every one of those links tries to set cookies and/or brings up warnings about insecure content.
>
>

And that is exactly why I don't try to inflict too much security on
people that don't understand what is going on. It just frightens them
and makes the situation worse.


Every one of billions of web sites sets cookies. You need to learn
about cookie control. Cookies won't harm your computer, but some can
be used for tracking and advert purposes.

The 'insecure content' message is a general caution that there *might*
be something insecure on a web page. Most people that understand web
site design switch those warnings off, because they are virtually
worthless.

To be specific:
A web page may contain several CSS and JavaScript files and these may
be getting served from different locations. If the page is served over
https but the associated files are served from a non-secure http
website, the browser will display the ?insecure content? warning.
--------------
It is a feature of the website design, not  a danger. Just switch the
warnings off if you are panicking.

You can have too much of a good thing, you know.  ;)


BillK



From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Mon Aug 27 14:21:54 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2012 16:21:54 +0200
Subject: [ExI] keynes vs hayek again, was: RE: 3d printers for sale
In-Reply-To: <8F125AFB-DEFA-409D-992E-5F84FC0C38B8@gmail.com>
References: <032b01cd83a4$94307010$bc915030$@att.net>
 <8F125AFB-DEFA-409D-992E-5F84FC0C38B8@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a6byHf4RkmwOmLZOBg2GFt3+cbGwjsr27xNCEhiFo5KZw@mail.gmail.com>

On 27 August 2012 15:22, Charlie Stross <charlie.stross at gmail.com> wrote:

> Let me enumerate some of the ways this doesn't work.
>
> Firstly: the definition of "unemployed people" is a movable feast, even if
> we examine people of working age. Is somebody in a hospital bed with
> locked-in syndrome unemployed? How about early-onset dementia? Or paranoid
> schizophrenia? Or someone with terminal cancer, or post-viral syndrome
> (some days they can work, other days they can barely get out of bed due to
> fatigue and muscle pain).
>

Let us take another traditional "anticapitalist" theme which is much less
debated these days in comparison with welfare.

What about people who do not work because they are rentiers (annuitants,
people living of their means, whatever one says in English) or are
maintained by others?

Should appropriate socials pressures exist to have them contribute to the
community they live in?

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From charlie.stross at gmail.com  Mon Aug 27 15:11:12 2012
From: charlie.stross at gmail.com (Charlie Stross)
Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2012 11:11:12 -0400
Subject: [ExI] keynes vs hayek again, was: RE: 3d printers for sale
In-Reply-To: <CAPoR7a6byHf4RkmwOmLZOBg2GFt3+cbGwjsr27xNCEhiFo5KZw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <032b01cd83a4$94307010$bc915030$@att.net>
 <8F125AFB-DEFA-409D-992E-5F84FC0C38B8@gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a6byHf4RkmwOmLZOBg2GFt3+cbGwjsr27xNCEhiFo5KZw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <744816EC-9E70-4FCE-A70B-3BAFFBFA7825@gmail.com>


On 27 Aug 2012, at 10:21, Stefano Vaj <stefano.vaj at gmail.com> wrote:

> On 27 August 2012 15:22, Charlie Stross <charlie.stross at gmail.com> wrote:
> Let me enumerate some of the ways this doesn't work.
> 
> Firstly: the definition of "unemployed people" is a movable feast, even if we examine people of working age. Is somebody in a hospital bed with locked-in syndrome unemployed? How about early-onset dementia? Or paranoid schizophrenia? Or someone with terminal cancer, or post-viral syndrome (some days they can work, other days they can barely get out of bed due to fatigue and muscle pain).
> 
> Let us take another traditional "anticapitalist" theme which is much less debated these days in comparison with welfare.
> 
> What about people who do not work because they are rentiers (annuitants, people living of their means, whatever one says in English) or are maintained by others? 
> 
> Should appropriate socials pressures exist to have them contribute to the community they live in?

Back off even further: how does one define "contribute to the community they live in"? (Is a rentier with a private income who devotes their idle life to painting or writing fiction -- and is therefore able to produce works of art that entertain people but don't necessarily generate enough income to live on -- a parasite? What about a rentier with a private income who generates employment in the cocaine trade?) Or how about the traditional "vicar's wife" or "first lady"? Someone who probably isn't working for a living but who is making themselves useful indirectly?

Or even further: *why* do we consider it useful or morally good for everyone to make a tangible contribution?



-- Charlie


From anders at aleph.se  Mon Aug 27 20:36:20 2012
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2012 22:36:20 +0200
Subject: [ExI] keynes vs hayek again, was: RE: 3d printers for sale
In-Reply-To: <744816EC-9E70-4FCE-A70B-3BAFFBFA7825@gmail.com>
References: <032b01cd83a4$94307010$bc915030$@att.net>
 <8F125AFB-DEFA-409D-992E-5F84FC0C38B8@gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a6byHf4RkmwOmLZOBg2GFt3+cbGwjsr27xNCEhiFo5KZw@mail.gmail.com>
 <744816EC-9E70-4FCE-A70B-3BAFFBFA7825@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <503BDA44.3070106@aleph.se>

On 27/08/2012 17:11, Charlie Stross wrote:
>
> Back off even further: how does one define "contribute to the community they live in"? (Is a rentier with a private income who devotes their idle life to painting or writing fiction -- and is therefore able to produce works of art that entertain people but don't necessarily generate enough income to live on -- a parasite? What about a rentier with a private income who generates employment in the cocaine trade?) Or how about the traditional "vicar's wife" or "first lady"? Someone who probably isn't working for a living but who is making themselves useful indirectly?

I am often thinking about this, since I live an ultra-privileged life as 
an Oxford scholar. Sure, I do grant hunting and need to publish or 
perish, but let's face it: it is a creative job with no heavy lifting, 
light demands and very flexible hours in a lovely place. Am I really 
contributing anything? Sure, I research how to deal with existential 
risk and how to improve ethics and rationality, things I consider to be 
important... but I do know there are people who think what I am doing is 
complete ivory tower stuff divorced from reality. What if they are right?

I think a partial answer could be made along the lines of Robert R. 
Wilson's famous defense of Fermilab ("It has nothing to do directly with 
defending our country except to make it worth defending.") There are 
activities that do not serve any instrumental purposes yet are 
worthwhile. Even if all that I do is philosophy, that might be good 
enough (I wouldn't be happy with that state, though).

This is also true for the painter, fiction writer or perhaps also the 
vicar's wife. Human relationships are not primarily useful - we tend to 
look down on people who just see contacts as merely tools - but have 
some kind of value or importance in themselves. A community without 
relationships would not really be a community.

> Or even further: *why* do we consider it useful or morally good for everyone to make a tangible contribution?

I think one could make an Aristotelian case that it is part of an 
excellent human life. We are social beings, and true happiness is doing 
something we experience meaningful. To not use ones skills to the 
fullest, or on projects that are not meaningful, means that one is 
missing out. Sure, there are projects that just benefit me, and I think 
they can be both moral and valuable. But just doing such projects leaves 
out large areas of endeavor - doing something that is meaningful because 
it contributes to the community is clearly a way towards excellence and 
happiness.

Ideally of course we should set things up so this doesn't have to be 
forced by want or coercion, but just from a desire to be really great 
people. But I suspect that requires us to get rather far into a post 
scarcity society. For the time being we should figure out how to handle 
the paradoxical tensions of a *less* scarcity-dominated society.


-- 
Anders Sandberg,
Future of Humanity Institute
Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University



From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Mon Aug 27 20:29:44 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2012 22:29:44 +0200
Subject: [ExI] keynes vs hayek again, was: RE: 3d printers for sale
In-Reply-To: <744816EC-9E70-4FCE-A70B-3BAFFBFA7825@gmail.com>
References: <032b01cd83a4$94307010$bc915030$@att.net>
 <8F125AFB-DEFA-409D-992E-5F84FC0C38B8@gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a6byHf4RkmwOmLZOBg2GFt3+cbGwjsr27xNCEhiFo5KZw@mail.gmail.com>
 <744816EC-9E70-4FCE-A70B-3BAFFBFA7825@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a4XQOq206v6zKOjSxSkZwzGOKKmtZ9=8VObKO=Th-dt9w@mail.gmail.com>

On 27 August 2012 17:11, Charlie Stross <charlie.stross at gmail.com> wrote:

> Back off even further: how does one define "contribute to the community
> they live in"? (Is a rentier with a private income who devotes their idle
> life to painting or writing fiction -- and is therefore able to produce
> works of art that entertain people but don't necessarily generate enough
> income to live on -- a parasite? What about a rentier with a private income
> who generates employment in the cocaine trade?) Or how about the
> traditional "vicar's wife" or "first lady"? Someone who probably isn't
> working for a living but who is making themselves useful indirectly?
>

Good questions. And the answers are...?


> Or even further: *why* do we consider it useful or morally good for
> everyone to make a tangible contribution?
>

In fact, most of "us" (meaning western citizens) do not, and could not care
less. This is simply a traditional socialist and/or communitarian tenet,
probably out of fashion by now.

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From charlie.stross at gmail.com  Mon Aug 27 21:04:41 2012
From: charlie.stross at gmail.com (Charlie Stross)
Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2012 17:04:41 -0400
Subject: [ExI] keynes vs hayek again, was: RE: 3d printers for sale
In-Reply-To: <CAPoR7a4XQOq206v6zKOjSxSkZwzGOKKmtZ9=8VObKO=Th-dt9w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <032b01cd83a4$94307010$bc915030$@att.net>
 <8F125AFB-DEFA-409D-992E-5F84FC0C38B8@gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a6byHf4RkmwOmLZOBg2GFt3+cbGwjsr27xNCEhiFo5KZw@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CAPoR7a4XQOq206v6zKOjSxSkZwzGOKKmtZ9=8VObKO=Th-dt9w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <96D76115-BE93-4485-BD5F-6147B3F1450B@gmail.com>


On 27 Aug 2012, at 16:29, Stefano Vaj <stefano.vaj at gmail.com> wrote:

> On 27 August 2012 17:11, Charlie Stross <charlie.stross at gmail.com> wrote:
> Back off even further: how does one define "contribute to the community they live in"? (Is a rentier with a private income who devotes their idle life to painting or writing fiction -- and is therefore able to produce works of art that entertain people but don't necessarily generate enough income to live on -- a parasite? What about a rentier with a private income who generates employment in the cocaine trade?) Or how about the traditional "vicar's wife" or "first lady"? Someone who probably isn't working for a living but who is making themselves useful indirectly?
> 
> Good questions. And the answers are...?

If I had easy answers I wouldn't be asking the question. (Nor would Anders need to equivocate in answering it.)

I suspect that like many problems in human social behaviour this is a "wicked" problem -- there's no single right one-size-fits-all-cases answer and, moreover, trying to apply any given solution changes the phase space within which the problem is defined and generates new undesirable edge conditions.

> Or even further: *why* do we consider it useful or morally good for everyone to make a tangible contribution?
> 
> In fact, most of "us" (meaning western citizens) do not, and could not care less. This is simply a traditional socialist and/or communitarian tenet, probably out of fashion by now.

Then why are our governments so obsessed with the unemployment figures? Or with mandatory mass education to provide a useful work-force?

It seems to me that it's not so much out of fashion as so totally pervasive that our relationship with the idea of work is that of fishes with water.


-- Charlie


From jrd1415 at gmail.com  Mon Aug 27 21:17:38 2012
From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis)
Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2012 14:17:38 -0700
Subject: [ExI] keynes vs hayek again, was: RE: 3d printers for sale
In-Reply-To: <503A98EB.50506@aleph.se>
References: <032b01cd83a4$94307010$bc915030$@att.net>
 <CAL_armhQbHW1rZ9Zkf9PdzkjEmjAOZm7GdQXKsmLdo3j_8y2ww@mail.gmail.com>
 <503A98EB.50506@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <CAHUTwkMwJ3CEmzJYMZEB4wKHJfNo8uc2k7fUssTvp7n3xCycMg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Aug 26, 2012 at 2:45 PM, Anders Sandberg <anders at aleph.se> wrote:
> On 26/08/2012 18:11, BillK wrote:
>.. 100% employment is likely not market efficient.

Human happiness and social harmony trump market efficiency.
Rationalize, "nationalize", or abolish markets in their current form.

>
...

>The worrying issue is that this also
> enables tele-warfare for everybody. So far I have never gotten any answer
> when I ask defence people about what they do when the first UAV sweeps down
> Fifth Avenue.
 ...

> tele-warfare robot-on-strategic targets is bad news
...

> ... hard to trace (and hence to assign
> blame), potentially a nasty first mover surprise, and potentially relatively
> cheap. What do we do when an unknown party physically wrecks key power stations?

Let's summarize: easy, cheap, hard to trace.  Then let's add that the
developed nations have infrastructure that is utterly dependent on
high-technology that is both strikingly vulnerable to even the most
feeble attack and virtually unprotected.

> Or is the solution air defense not just on housing blocks near
> Olympic arenas but *everywhere*?

Here's where we part company and the true magnitude of the threat
jumps out at you.

Air defense?  Forget it.  The threat won't come from the skies.
because air attack by high-tech, ?ber-expensive drones operated by
wealthy-enough-to-build-them actors is a self-absorption-generated
projection of our way of war-for-profit onto some hypothetical
adversary.

Not.  Any attack by an adversary, will be driven by their own goals
and by their own more modest means.

I have largely refrained from writing about this, so as not to give
anyone ideas -- including the DHS, about me -- but I'm under no
illusions that these vulnerabilities are at all difficult for
aggrieved militants to figure out on their own.

Here's the deal.   Car bombs with wireless teleoperation.  In the US,
with all its cars, its open roads, and traditional unrestricted
freedom of movement, car drones would mean the end of society as we
know it.  (It used to be that one would need a wireless transmitter
nearby for terminal guidance, but with ubiquetous mobile computing,
we're just one drive-by-wire system and one smart phone app away from
full implementation.)

Shortly after the first attack, the govt security services -- too many
to list -- would immediately lock down the country.  Burly guys with
sloping brows and automatic weapons would be on every street corner.
Bomb proof checkpoints would spring up along roadways everywhere, and
there would be full-employment -- unlimited employment even -- for
security "contractors".  That we're into end stage.   The cancer of
militarism finally strangles US productivity, and parasitizes the last
of US "treasure".

The US is profoundly vulnerable in a near-endless number of ways.  The
car drone might be one of the biggies, but its just one of many.

I'm actually surprised it hasn't happened yet, and I hope it's because
my thinking is somehow flawed.

Remember, good citizens have nothing to fear.  Best of luck to you all.

Best, Jeff Davis

"A nation that continues year after year to spend
      more money on military defense than on programs
                      of social uplift is approaching spiritual death."
                                                   Martin Luther King



From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Mon Aug 27 22:49:36 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2012 00:49:36 +0200
Subject: [ExI] keynes vs hayek again, was: RE: 3d printers for sale
In-Reply-To: <503BDA44.3070106@aleph.se>
References: <032b01cd83a4$94307010$bc915030$@att.net>
 <8F125AFB-DEFA-409D-992E-5F84FC0C38B8@gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a6byHf4RkmwOmLZOBg2GFt3+cbGwjsr27xNCEhiFo5KZw@mail.gmail.com>
 <744816EC-9E70-4FCE-A70B-3BAFFBFA7825@gmail.com>
 <503BDA44.3070106@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a5Ug1bs4BVLR=uxH4B9B5-+4sfAQP-G1ynKxa6QYss01Q@mail.gmail.com>

On 27 August 2012 22:36, Anders Sandberg <anders at aleph.se> wrote:

> I am often thinking about this, since I live an ultra-privileged life as
> an Oxford scholar. Sure, I do grant hunting and need to publish or perish,
> but let's face it: it is a creative job with no heavy lifting, light
> demands and very flexible hours in a lovely place.
>

Mmhhh.  I suspect that "creative" work, either as a philosopher or a music
composer or an entrepreneur or even a politician, can actually be much more
demanding, competitive, challenging and actually painful and/or risky than
a 9-to-5 clerk-level employment.

And for sure I do not envy, say, the stupid but unavoidable daily tasks of
Queen Elizabeth, for that matter.

It is true however that the higher you are on the social ladder the more
likely you are to find yourself in a better position to manage yourself
rather than having others managing you.

But I am not sure this has much to do with *working* or finding some niche
where you do not.

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From jrd1415 at gmail.com  Mon Aug 27 22:57:00 2012
From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis)
Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2012 15:57:00 -0700
Subject: [ExI] keynes vs hayek again, was: RE: 3d printers for sale
In-Reply-To: <744816EC-9E70-4FCE-A70B-3BAFFBFA7825@gmail.com>
References: <032b01cd83a4$94307010$bc915030$@att.net>
 <8F125AFB-DEFA-409D-992E-5F84FC0C38B8@gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a6byHf4RkmwOmLZOBg2GFt3+cbGwjsr27xNCEhiFo5KZw@mail.gmail.com>
 <744816EC-9E70-4FCE-A70B-3BAFFBFA7825@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHUTwkPqRkbreex9mKFL-p9AFyALHuaMmMfmX5xEmPXFtv5_FA@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Aug 27, 2012 at 8:11 AM, Charlie Stross
<charlie.stross at gmail.com> wrote:

> Or even further: *why* do we consider it useful or morally good for everyone to make a tangible contribution?

Can we please consider dumping the Calvinist notion that to be moral
and to deserve what you get, and for it to have value, you must work
for it?

We can all see advanced automation coming, and we're all familiar with
the flying sabots that speak to the fear of losing one's means of
survival.   Can't we just accept that at some point, when productivity
is up and employment down, to prevent class warare, we're going to
have to provide -- essentially free of charge -- a guaranteed
subsistence to everyone?  The fact that our current value system
considers this "wrong" in a variety of ways does not alter the
impending reality.

Just one source of drama in a rapidly changing world.

Best, Jeff Davis

              "Everything's hard till you know how to do it."
                                                   Ray Charles


From anders at aleph.se  Mon Aug 27 23:49:29 2012
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2012 00:49:29 +0100
Subject: [ExI] keynes vs hayek again, was: RE: 3d printers for sale
In-Reply-To: <CAPoR7a5Ug1bs4BVLR=uxH4B9B5-+4sfAQP-G1ynKxa6QYss01Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <032b01cd83a4$94307010$bc915030$@att.net>
 <8F125AFB-DEFA-409D-992E-5F84FC0C38B8@gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a6byHf4RkmwOmLZOBg2GFt3+cbGwjsr27xNCEhiFo5KZw@mail.gmail.com>
 <744816EC-9E70-4FCE-A70B-3BAFFBFA7825@gmail.com> <503BDA44.3070106@aleph.se>
 <CAPoR7a5Ug1bs4BVLR=uxH4B9B5-+4sfAQP-G1ynKxa6QYss01Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <503C0789.7090908@aleph.se>

On 27/08/2012 23:49, Stefano Vaj wrote:
> On 27 August 2012 22:36, Anders Sandberg <anders at aleph.se 
> <mailto:anders at aleph.se>> wrote:
>
>     I am often thinking about this, since I live an ultra-privileged
>     life as an Oxford scholar. Sure, I do grant hunting and need to
>     publish or perish, but let's face it: it is a creative job with no
>     heavy lifting, light demands and very flexible hours in a lovely
>     place.
>
>
> Mmhhh.  I suspect that "creative" work, either as a philosopher or a 
> music composer or an entrepreneur or even a politician, can actually 
> be much more demanding, competitive, challenging and actually painful 
> and/or risky than a 9-to-5 clerk-level employment.

Richard Florida made the point that the creative class in many ways is 
more stressed than the service class. It might be a better kind of 
stress than the stress of fearing for your position when you pull 
all-nighters to make your startup work or because you cannot drop a 
mathematical problem. Knowing that you better come up with fresh and 
unique ideas to do your job is deeply unsettling. 9-to-5 work has a 
natural cut-off, but creative work doesn't, and if not managed right 
will eat your life. However, I think the feeling of being in control 
over one's life (no matter how real or imaginary) outweighs the direct 
stress.

There is plenty of workism around saying that it is good to work 
(usually based on some kind of protestant assumption of 
self-mortification or a variant of my Aristotelian virtue theory). But 
this is unlikely to motivate many to dig ditches or be clerks if they 
don't have to. The tricky part about creative work is that it often 
seduces us: we do it because it is rewarding, and before we know it we 
cannot drop it. In a post-scarcity world the creatives are likely nearly 
as stressed as now.

Over the long span we have a transition from a society were all levels 
of human skill are economically competitive, over a situation where 
automation makes skills under some certain level cheaper to do by 
technology, to a situation where nearly all human skill is redundant. 
This transition makes society in general much richer, since the cost of 
producing wealth goes down. The current headache is how to re-school 
people whose jobs have been substituted by technology (either to 
something completely different or to jobs enabled by this substitution) 
or find some other way to ensuring their livelihood. This is likely 
driving lots of current stress in society. But just as scary as lack of 
food and shelter is loss of social status. Many people get their social 
positions from their jobs (or think they do), and that is threatened by 
this trend even if there is an endless supply of material security. In 
fact, if material security doesn't matter then social status becomes 
nearly the only thing. So this suggests that high-status people are 
going to react even less well to automation of their jobs than 
low-status people. So it might be the creatives who have the worst 
situation in the long run: they self-identify with their skills, and 
automation threatens their self concepts.

Maybe the proles are going to be the long-term winners.  Although I do 
not think we should underestimate human creativity in creating status 
markers.

-- 
Anders Sandberg,
Future of Humanity Institute
Oxford Martin School
Faculty of Philosophy
Oxford University

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From spike66 at att.net  Tue Aug 28 00:23:11 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2012 17:23:11 -0700
Subject: [ExI] keynes vs hayek again, was: RE: 3d printers for sale
In-Reply-To: <CAPoR7a6byHf4RkmwOmLZOBg2GFt3+cbGwjsr27xNCEhiFo5KZw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <032b01cd83a4$94307010$bc915030$@att.net>
 <8F125AFB-DEFA-409D-992E-5F84FC0C38B8@gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a6byHf4RkmwOmLZOBg2GFt3+cbGwjsr27xNCEhiFo5KZw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00f901cd84b3$4f6f2970$ee4d7c50$@att.net>

 

 

 

On Behalf Of Stefano Vaj
.



>.What about people who do not work because they are rentiers (annuitants,
people living of their means, whatever one says in English) or are
maintained by others?

 

In all three cases, these people DO contribute to the community in which
they live, every time they buy anything locally.


>.Should appropriate socials pressures exist to have them contribute to the
community they live in? -- Stefano Vaj

Such pressures already exist, in the form of hunger if nothing else.  Their
money (or that of their maintainers) finds its way into the local economy.

 

spike 



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From spike66 at att.net  Tue Aug 28 04:47:59 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2012 21:47:59 -0700
Subject: [ExI] keynes vs hayek again, was: RE: 3d printers for sale
In-Reply-To: <503BDA44.3070106@aleph.se>
References: <032b01cd83a4$94307010$bc915030$@att.net>
 <8F125AFB-DEFA-409D-992E-5F84FC0C38B8@gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a6byHf4RkmwOmLZOBg2GFt3+cbGwjsr27xNCEhiFo5KZw@mail.gmail.com>
 <744816EC-9E70-4FCE-A70B-3BAFFBFA7825@gmail.com> <503BDA44.3070106@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <017901cd84d8$4d06b520$e7141f60$@att.net>


>... On Behalf Of Anders Sandberg
...
Subject: Re: [ExI] keynes vs hayek again, was: RE: 3d printers for sale

On 27/08/2012 17:11, Charlie Stross wrote:
>
>>... Back off even further: how does one define "contribute to the
community they live in"? ...

>...I am often thinking about this, since I live an ultra-privileged life as
an Oxford scholar. Sure, I do grant hunting and need to publish or perish,
but let's face it: it is a creative job with no heavy lifting, light demands
and very flexible hours in a lovely place. Am I really contributing
anything? Sure, I research how to deal with existential risk and how to
improve ethics and rationality, things I consider to be important... but I
do know there are people who think what I am doing is complete ivory tower
stuff divorced from reality. What if they are right?...

What if they are right?  Then those who feel that way need not to contribute
to your grants.  Anders, do let me assure you sir, humanity needs it ivory
towers, even if they are sometimes ridiculed.  The ivory towers help us
navigate the seas of moral ambiguity in which we find ourselves every day of
our lives.

Do what you do so very well and don't worry about insufficient contribution.
Your life is a fantasy to me: living at Oxford, dealing with those topics,
that whole scholarly life is just monster kewall.  We cannot all do that, so
we choose you.

spike  





From spike66 at att.net  Tue Aug 28 05:18:00 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2012 22:18:00 -0700
Subject: [ExI] keynes vs hayek again, was: RE: 3d printers for sale
In-Reply-To: <CAHUTwkMwJ3CEmzJYMZEB4wKHJfNo8uc2k7fUssTvp7n3xCycMg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <032b01cd83a4$94307010$bc915030$@att.net>
 <CAL_armhQbHW1rZ9Zkf9PdzkjEmjAOZm7GdQXKsmLdo3j_8y2ww@mail.gmail.com>
 <503A98EB.50506@aleph.se>
 <CAHUTwkMwJ3CEmzJYMZEB4wKHJfNo8uc2k7fUssTvp7n3xCycMg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <018001cd84dc$7e9e7d80$7bdb7880$@att.net>


>... On Behalf Of Jeff Davis
...

>...The US is profoundly vulnerable in a near-endless number of ways.  The
car drone might be one of the biggies, but its just one of many.  I'm
actually surprised it hasn't happened yet, and I hope it's because my
thinking is somehow flawed...Best, Jeff Davis

It isn't flawed Jeff.  The people that ponder this kind of thing have been
thinking about possible defenses against car drones for years.  Robo-cars
are newish, but didn't just happen last week.  When I attended the DARPA
Grand Challenge in 2004, none of the racers finished in the required time,
but from a controls perspective, a race through the desert is far harder
than driving on paved roads.  

As a controls engineer, it occurred to me, and others, that this technology
could easily be adapted to the relatively easy task of making a supercruise
on the freeway.  Then Sebastian Thune came along and won the next DARPA
challenge, then gave us streetable robo-cars.  Within minutes, it was clear
that these things could easily be made into guided weapons of enormous
destructive capacity, and if the 1000 kg or so which can be packed into a
Prius isn't bad enough, one could hitch on a trailer with five times that
much.

This horrifying attack was done with five tons of ammonium nitrate and
nitromethane:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oklahoma_City_bombing

Car-drones are a big threat.  It might be hard to combat such a weapon.

spike




From brainwav93 at hotmail.com  Tue Aug 28 06:19:56 2012
From: brainwav93 at hotmail.com (T. Watts)
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2012 00:19:56 -0600
Subject: [ExI] keynes vs hayek again, was: RE: 3d printers for sale
In-Reply-To: <018001cd84dc$7e9e7d80$7bdb7880$@att.net>
References: <032b01cd83a4$94307010$bc915030$@att.net>,
 <CAL_armhQbHW1rZ9Zkf9PdzkjEmjAOZm7GdQXKsmLdo3j_8y2ww@mail.gmail.com>,
 <503A98EB.50506@aleph.se>,
 <CAHUTwkMwJ3CEmzJYMZEB4wKHJfNo8uc2k7fUssTvp7n3xCycMg@mail.gmail.com>,
 <018001cd84dc$7e9e7d80$7bdb7880$@att.net>
Message-ID: <BLU159-W186D3862DE0ECB2056C897D3A10@phx.gbl>


I believe some of our major cities, the power could be knocked out for weeks with a deer rifle or a few sacks of thermite. There was an article in Omni magazine by G. Gordon Liddy on our vulnerabilities.

> From: spike66 at att.net
> To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2012 22:18:00 -0700
> Subject: Re: [ExI] keynes vs hayek again, was: RE: 3d printers for sale
> 
> 
> >... On Behalf Of Jeff Davis
> ...
> 
> >...The US is profoundly vulnerable in a near-endless number of ways.  The
> car drone might be one of the biggies, but its just one of many.  I'm
> actually surprised it hasn't happened yet, and I hope it's because my
> thinking is somehow flawed...Best, Jeff Davis
> 
> It isn't flawed Jeff.  The people that ponder this kind of thing have been
> thinking about possible defenses against car drones for years.  Robo-cars
> are newish, but didn't just happen last week.  When I attended the DARPA
> Grand Challenge in 2004, none of the racers finished in the required time,
> but from a controls perspective, a race through the desert is far harder
> than driving on paved roads.  
> 
> As a controls engineer, it occurred to me, and others, that this technology
> could easily be adapted to the relatively easy task of making a supercruise
> on the freeway.  Then Sebastian Thune came along and won the next DARPA
> challenge, then gave us streetable robo-cars.  Within minutes, it was clear
> that these things could easily be made into guided weapons of enormous
> destructive capacity, and if the 1000 kg or so which can be packed into a
> Prius isn't bad enough, one could hitch on a trailer with five times that
> much.
> 
> This horrifying attack was done with five tons of ammonium nitrate and
> nitromethane:
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oklahoma_City_bombing
> 
> Car-drones are a big threat.  It might be hard to combat such a weapon.
> 
> spike
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
 		 	   		  
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From anders at aleph.se  Tue Aug 28 08:06:20 2012
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2012 10:06:20 +0200
Subject: [ExI] keynes vs hayek again, was: RE: 3d printers for sale
In-Reply-To: <018001cd84dc$7e9e7d80$7bdb7880$@att.net>
References: <032b01cd83a4$94307010$bc915030$@att.net>
 <CAL_armhQbHW1rZ9Zkf9PdzkjEmjAOZm7GdQXKsmLdo3j_8y2ww@mail.gmail.com>
 <503A98EB.50506@aleph.se>
 <CAHUTwkMwJ3CEmzJYMZEB4wKHJfNo8uc2k7fUssTvp7n3xCycMg@mail.gmail.com>
 <018001cd84dc$7e9e7d80$7bdb7880$@att.net>
Message-ID: <503C7BFC.60902@aleph.se>


On 28/08/2012 07:18, spike wrote:
> Car-drones are a big threat.  It might be hard to combat such a weapon.

Current society is very vulnerable to autonomous car-bombs (or my 
earlier sketch of terrorist drones). That doesn't mean it will remain 
vulnerable if they start to occur. It is a bit like computer security: 
it was nonexistent until needed. But continuing that analogy, if the 
incentives or popular solutions turn out to be bad, then we might get a 
suboptimal situation, like in computer security (in fact, bad computer 
security together with robot-like devices makes all such devices 
potentially malicious).

What would a *good* solution to the car-bomb problem be? Transparency is 
only good enough if it prevents bad things before they happen, so we 
need very proactive monitoring. Since a car already is a deadly device 
(just get it to drive fast to crash) it is not clear that it could see a 
hack attack coming: for transparency to fully work we need to have 
solved the computer security problem. Something like capability approach 
might be more promising: there are built in and *hardwired* safety rules 
(like "don't hit pedestrians", "if loaded by more than X kg of 
something, running with no driver, and approaching a federal building, 
allow a surveillance sweep in a sepaarate garage"), and to participate 
in the traffic system a car has to prove cryptographically that it 
follows them ("trusted commuting"). Loads of implementation and 
introduction problems of course.

An insurance friend of mine pointed out that one could estimate the 
probability of a terrorist attack on US soil in two ways: either try to 
run a complex model based on your theory of terrorism, known data, Monte 
Carlo simulation etc., or consider the question "What is the maximum 
number of real terrorist attacks that the US government/people would 
accept per year before they implemented a solution?" The latter method 
is crude, but actually helps bound the question in a constructive way. I 
am pretty confident that a similar question for car drones will produce 
a fairly low number, and that the "market" will find a way of solving 
the problem even if we cannot imagine how.

The scary part is that we apparently have decided that the number of 
cyberattacks we accept per year is pretty high: the "equilibrium" might 
not be rational.



-- 
Anders Sandberg,
Future of Humanity Institute
Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University



From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Tue Aug 28 11:05:54 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2012 13:05:54 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Assange, Anonymous and Extraditions
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a6eshLXKg5_7N--JwhvM+eHtJPJJ9Z8ycuRKhjH+uMgVQ@mail.gmail.com>

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/08/26/ecuador_pres_slams_uk_gov/


<<British Minister likens Anonymous to fascists and racists

Ecuador pres defends Assange bedroom antics, questions Pinochet irony

By Natalie Apostolou<http://forms.theregister.co.uk/mail_author/?story_url=/2012/08/26/ecuador_pres_slams_uk_gov/>

Hacktivist cabal Anonymous has continued its attack on UK government
websites in retaliation to the UK?s treatment of Julian Assange, this time
hitting former Wales and Northern Ireland Secretary, Peter Hain.

Hain told the BBC <http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-19381444> he feels
Anonymous' actions resemble those he experienced in the ?anti-apartheid and
anti-fascist struggles." The MP participated in South Africa's
anti-apartheid movement in the 1970s. "I have had these attacks for 40
years, mostly from racists and fascists."

He added that Anonymous had got its targets wrong as he has been a
supporter of Assange.

Hain used the attack to urge for cyber security, taking to Twitter where he
wrote <https://twitter.com/PeterHain/status/239339211281551361> "after
targeting of several sites in recent months latest incident is more
evidence that UK needs to wake up to growing cyber security threat."
Anonymous targeted the UK?s Ministry of Justice and the Home Office last
week.

Meanwhile, Ecuador's President Rafael Correa said that the standoff
regarding Assange as an ?unfortunate incident over, after a grave
diplomatic error by the British in which they said they would enter our
embassy."

Ecuadorian officials have been outraged at British government threats of
trying to seize Assange should he stray from the Ecuadorian embassy where
he has been camped for two months.

The Washington-based Organization of American States also condemned
Britain's threat with South American foreign ministers claiming Britain's
stance is unacceptable.

Correa told the UK?s Sunday Times that the sex crime allegations made
against Assange would not be deemed a crime in Latin America. "The crimes
that Assange is accused of, they would not be crimes in 90 to 95 per cent
of the planet," he said.

He also played the Pinochet card, questioning the British government?s
contradictory approach to extradition, when it did not extradite former
Chilean dictator Augusto Pinochet after his 1998 arrest in London.

Pinochet was wanted on an international arrest warrant issued by Spanish
judge Baltasar Garzon, who is now featured on Assange's legal team.

"Britain supported Augusto Pinochet unconditionally. And they let him go,
they didn't extradite him on humanitarian grounds, whereas they want to
extradite Julian Assange for not using a condom, for the love of God,?
Correa said.>>

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From pharos at gmail.com  Tue Aug 28 11:27:11 2012
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2012 12:27:11 +0100
Subject: [ExI] keynes vs hayek again, was: RE: 3d printers for sale
In-Reply-To: <503C7BFC.60902@aleph.se>
References: <032b01cd83a4$94307010$bc915030$@att.net>
 <CAL_armhQbHW1rZ9Zkf9PdzkjEmjAOZm7GdQXKsmLdo3j_8y2ww@mail.gmail.com>
 <503A98EB.50506@aleph.se>
 <CAHUTwkMwJ3CEmzJYMZEB4wKHJfNo8uc2k7fUssTvp7n3xCycMg@mail.gmail.com>
 <018001cd84dc$7e9e7d80$7bdb7880$@att.net> <503C7BFC.60902@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <CAL_armja9dKJf2vMngycfV5uk9-cH=n0OsdhKV2GPc3MXE5O3g@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Aug 28, 2012 at 9:06 AM, Anders Sandberg wrote:
<snip>
> The scary part is that we apparently have decided that the number of
> cyberattacks we accept per year is pretty high: the "equilibrium" might not
> be rational.
>
>

Not really 'decided'.  More like 'we have to put up with cyberattacks
until we figure out a good way to stop them'. :)

The original design of the internet did not include security as it was
really just a few friends communicating by computer. Governments are
playing 'whack a mole' to try to discourage cyberattacks. But like
drugs, the rewards can be huge for minimal risk.

Governments would like everyone to sign on with an authorised ID, so
that misbehaviour can be easily tracked back to source. That's why
smartphones are going to be your passport to everything. It's the next
best thing to having RFID chips put inside everyone. (Oooooh,
government's wet dream!).

The web needs a major redesign to enable security. Luckily it will
probably be too expensive. But if it is ever done, I guarantee you
won't like it much!


BillK


From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Tue Aug 28 11:27:39 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2012 13:27:39 +0200
Subject: [ExI] pussy riot case
In-Reply-To: <009b01cd7f11$0116dea0$03449be0$@att.net>
References: <001e01cd7e29$741785f0$5c4691d0$@att.net>
 <CAPoR7a7=JAe8au6UrxQBid_-5SF-T5G-PKrsk8WCCF+1DsHjUA@mail.gmail.com>
 <008801cd7e47$2cfb31d0$86f19570$@att.net>
 <5032009E.90308@libero.it>
 <009b01cd7f11$0116dea0$03449be0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a7BwwueXE843cK2g4L5V-8W_DC1hBgn0rBDw0L4LPaK8Q@mail.gmail.com>

On 20 August 2012 22:18, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

> I stand with Pussy Riot.  The judge
> should have given them two weeks in the slammer for trespassing, not two
> years.
>

Looks like Pussy Riots in Germany you may end up getting a harsher sentence
than their colleagues in Russia:
http://rt.com/news/pussy-riot-cologne-cathedral-463/.

What surprises me is that most Americans I speak with are persuaded that US
courts would be much more lenient in equivalent circumstances, which does
not correspond to what I can infer from  federal sentencing guidelines...

Any US lawyer care to comment?

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From charlie.stross at gmail.com  Tue Aug 28 11:27:50 2012
From: charlie.stross at gmail.com (Charlie Stross)
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2012 07:27:50 -0400
Subject: [ExI] keynes vs hayek again, was: RE: 3d printers for sale
In-Reply-To: <503C7BFC.60902@aleph.se>
References: <032b01cd83a4$94307010$bc915030$@att.net>
 <CAL_armhQbHW1rZ9Zkf9PdzkjEmjAOZm7GdQXKsmLdo3j_8y2ww@mail.gmail.com>
 <503A98EB.50506@aleph.se>
 <CAHUTwkMwJ3CEmzJYMZEB4wKHJfNo8uc2k7fUssTvp7n3xCycMg@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <F8053E1F-A14C-4858-A28F-849811A4C6F2@gmail.com>


On 28 Aug 2012, at 04:06, Anders Sandberg <anders at aleph.se> wrote:

> 
> On 28/08/2012 07:18, spike wrote:
>> Car-drones are a big threat.  It might be hard to combat such a weapon.
> 
> Current society is very vulnerable to autonomous car-bombs (or my earlier sketch of terrorist drones). That doesn't mean it will remain vulnerable if they start to occur. It is a bit like computer security: it was nonexistent until needed. But continuing that analogy, if the incentives or popular solutions turn out to be bad, then we might get a suboptimal situation, like in computer security (in fact, bad computer security together with robot-like devices makes all such devices potentially malicious).
> 
> What would a *good* solution to the car-bomb problem be?

As with all security threats, a *good* solution is to pre-empt the incentives that generate such a threat. Lone wolf individuals with a grudge, such as Timothy McVeigh -- and the odd psychotic genius, such as Anders Breivik -- are perhaps inevitable in any complex society, but to do serious damage to a society takes more than one person: it takes an organized group with a recruiting base, and such groups usually nucleate around causes where there is huge injustice perceived by a much larger population.

A good start would be to work on identifying such potential flashpoints and defusing them before they generate radicals who are willing to take up arms. But that's a political problem, and possibly a structural problem for any government that attempts to administer a diverse population. Worse, trying to solve it requires compromise with radical minority political viewpoints, which in turn may be seen as weakness or immorality or whatever by other groups (including the political party or coalition running the government).

And that still doesn't buy us a solution to state-level actors engaging in this kind of strategy.

It's one reason why I consider drone strikes to be a reprehensible and very dangerous form of warfare. They're basically assassination weapons. And assassination is *cheap*. It lowers the threshold of violence and makes it possible for poor governments to play on a level playing field with world powers, which in turn generates more flashpoints and ultimately causes chaos. (Never mind that the current US drone policy in Afghanistan includes attacking people who go out to retrieve the bodies of those killed in earlier strikes -- arguably a war crime -- and attacking funerals and other public gatherings. In a part of the world where the blood feud is a common social pattern! Which means those missile strikes are a potent recruiting tool for the Taliban. Madness, right?)

> Transparency is only good enough if it prevents bad things before they happen, so we need very proactive monitoring.
> Since a car already is a deadly device (just get it to drive fast to crash) it is not clear that it could see a hack attack coming: for transparency to fully work we need to have solved the computer security problem. Something like capability approach might be more promising: there are built in and *hardwired* safety rules (like "don't hit pedestrians", "if loaded by more than X kg of something, running with no driver, and approaching a federal building, allow a surveillance sweep in a sepaarate garage"), and to participate in the traffic system a car has to prove cryptographically that it follows them ("trusted commuting"). Loads of implementation and introduction problems of course.

No.

More like: automated ubiquitous vehicle sensor networks in all roads so that all operational vehicles, manned or automated, are identified and tracked at all times. And a mandatory fail-safe police despatch controlled cut-off for automated vehicles: as in, UNLESS an AV has permission to operate, it WILL shut down immediately and be flagged up in a control room. Yes, normally all AVs will have permission to operate -- but it needs to be a system whereby AVs can only operate by permit, and if an attempt is made to disable or spoof the automated remote cut-off, that needs to generate an urgent police call. ("Someone is feloniously trying to turn vehicle XYZZY into a potential getaway car or car bomb. Investigate immediately: caution advised.")

And even that isn't going to prevent the Provisional IRA 1970's intelligent car bomb algorithm (which I believe is currently being used in Syria):

1. Find someone who works for the British government (e.g. a builder who works on police stations, or a fast food vendor who sells to soldiers)

2. Take their family hostage at gunpoint.

3. Put them in their own car. Tell them to drive to a police station. Tell them they're being watched, and if they don't go where they're told they'll come home to find their family in pieces.



-- Charlie


From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Tue Aug 28 13:37:09 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2012 15:37:09 +0200
Subject: [ExI] keynes vs hayek again, was: RE: 3d printers for sale
In-Reply-To: <CAHUTwkPqRkbreex9mKFL-p9AFyALHuaMmMfmX5xEmPXFtv5_FA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <032b01cd83a4$94307010$bc915030$@att.net>
 <8F125AFB-DEFA-409D-992E-5F84FC0C38B8@gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a6byHf4RkmwOmLZOBg2GFt3+cbGwjsr27xNCEhiFo5KZw@mail.gmail.com>
 <744816EC-9E70-4FCE-A70B-3BAFFBFA7825@gmail.com>
 <CAHUTwkPqRkbreex9mKFL-p9AFyALHuaMmMfmX5xEmPXFtv5_FA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a5Q_Lx=w+1raQVA7PvBReWJLQPLu5gEimAEFraj4vEUYA@mail.gmail.com>

On 28 August 2012 00:57, Jeff Davis <jrd1415 at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mon, Aug 27, 2012 at 8:11 AM, Charlie Stross
> <charlie.stross at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Or even further: *why* do we consider it useful or morally good for
> everyone to make a tangible contribution?
>
> Can we please consider dumping the Calvinist notion that to be moral
> and to deserve what you get, and for it to have value, you must work
> for it?
>

This is not the only plausible rationale behind that.

For instance, a very traditional view is that a given community is
automatically entitled to demand that its members support each other and
the community as such.

This is certainly true for anthills, eg, and human communities factually
governed by such views might even have an evolutionary/game theory/memetic
edge on other ones.

In history, however, this contribution never needed be "tangible" in the
literal sense of the word. In fact, division of labours allowed societies
to have members specialised and permanently engaged in poetry, history,
medicine, politics, religion, mathematics, writing, advocacy, trade, etc.

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Tue Aug 28 13:44:00 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2012 15:44:00 +0200
Subject: [ExI] keynes vs hayek again, was: RE: 3d printers for sale
In-Reply-To: <503C0789.7090908@aleph.se>
References: <032b01cd83a4$94307010$bc915030$@att.net>
 <8F125AFB-DEFA-409D-992E-5F84FC0C38B8@gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a6byHf4RkmwOmLZOBg2GFt3+cbGwjsr27xNCEhiFo5KZw@mail.gmail.com>
 <744816EC-9E70-4FCE-A70B-3BAFFBFA7825@gmail.com>
 <503BDA44.3070106@aleph.se>
 <CAPoR7a5Ug1bs4BVLR=uxH4B9B5-+4sfAQP-G1ynKxa6QYss01Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <503C0789.7090908@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a76qcjaQp6cqUiZBzxL0C1rY2SpAB7Y6uAbU0hABjO5aQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 28 August 2012 01:49, Anders Sandberg <anders at aleph.se> wrote:

> But just as scary as lack of food and shelter is loss of social status.
> Many people get their social positions from their jobs (or think they do),
> and that is threatened by this trend even if there is an endless supply of
> material security. In fact, if material security doesn't matter then social
> status becomes nearly the only thing. So this suggests that high-status
> people are going to react even less well to automation of their jobs than
> low-status people. So it might be the creatives who have the worst
> situation in the long run: they self-identify with their skills, and
> automation threatens their self concepts.
>

Yes, I fully agree. In fact, this is even more accurate for the kind of
"creative" work which is purely artistic, literary, philosophical, etc.,
where status, sense of personal fulfilment, fame, peer-recognition and
other non-monetary rewards play an even larger role than they can for, say,
an art director or a trial lawyer.

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From anders at aleph.se  Tue Aug 28 20:09:32 2012
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2012 21:09:32 +0100
Subject: [ExI] keynes vs hayek again, was: RE: 3d printers for sale
In-Reply-To: <F8053E1F-A14C-4858-A28F-849811A4C6F2@gmail.com>
References: <032b01cd83a4$94307010$bc915030$@att.net>
 <CAL_armhQbHW1rZ9Zkf9PdzkjEmjAOZm7GdQXKsmLdo3j_8y2ww@mail.gmail.com>
 <503A98EB.50506@aleph.se>
 <CAHUTwkMwJ3CEmzJYMZEB4wKHJfNo8uc2k7fUssTvp7n3xCycMg@mail.gmail.com>
 <018001cd84dc$7e9e7d80$7bdb7880$@att.net> <503C7BFC.60902@aleph.se>
 <F8053E1F-A14C-4858-A28F-849811A4C6F2@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <503D257C.9020103@aleph.se>

On 28/08/2012 12:27, Charlie Stross wrote:
> On 28 Aug 2012, at 04:06, Anders Sandberg <anders at aleph.se> wrote:
> What would a *good* solution to the car-bomb problem be?
> As with all security threats, a *good* solution is to pre-empt the incentives that generate such a threat.
...
> A good start would be to work on identifying such potential flashpoints and defusing them before they generate radicals who are willing to take up arms. But that's a political problem, and possibly a structural problem for any government that attempts to administer a diverse population.

There is also the problem that such a "political technology" would be 
double-edged: it might work well for defusing any legitimate grievances. 
Especially Putin's Russia has demonstrated that it is possible to buy 
out a lot of potential opponents with oil money (although there is 
plenty of stick around too, besides the carrot). One could imagine a 
near future total surveillance society that uses its databases together 
with some randomized trials to produce evidence based policy for keeping 
citizens compliant.

The fundamental problem comes about when the government sets the agenda 
of the citizens too efficiently.



> It's one reason why I consider drone strikes to be a reprehensible and very dangerous form of warfare. They're basically assassination weapons. And assassination is *cheap*. It lowers the threshold of violence and makes it possible for poor governments to play on a level playing field with world powers, which in turn generates more flashpoints and ultimately causes chaos.

A bit like non-lethal weapons. Ah, "less lethal weapons", sorry. Lowers 
the threshold for attacking, since the cost seems to be much lower. "Oh, 
if I was wrong I can always apologize. No harm done, right?"



> More like: automated ubiquitous vehicle sensor networks in all roads 
> so that all operational vehicles, manned or automated, are identified 
> and tracked at all times. And a mandatory fail-safe police despatch 
> controlled cut-off for automated vehicles: as in, UNLESS an AV has 
> permission to operate, it WILL shut down immediately and be flagged up 
> in a control room. Yes, normally all AVs will have permission to 
> operate -- but it needs to be a system whereby AVs can only operate by 
> permit, and if an attempt is made to disable or spoof the automated 
> remote cut-off, that needs to generate an urgent police call.

Ah, the immune system problem. Since it is impossible to determine what 
could be pathogenic, it is easier - and doable - to catalogue what is 
"self" and attack/reject everything non-self. Of course, human systems 
can have slightly smarter systems for converting nonself into self, 
although that introduces some risk.





-- 
Anders Sandberg,
Future of Humanity Institute
Oxford Martin School
Faculty of Philosophy
Oxford University



From anders at aleph.se  Tue Aug 28 20:25:11 2012
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2012 21:25:11 +0100
Subject: [ExI] keynes vs hayek again, was: RE: 3d printers for sale
In-Reply-To: <CAPoR7a5Q_Lx=w+1raQVA7PvBReWJLQPLu5gEimAEFraj4vEUYA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <032b01cd83a4$94307010$bc915030$@att.net>
 <8F125AFB-DEFA-409D-992E-5F84FC0C38B8@gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a6byHf4RkmwOmLZOBg2GFt3+cbGwjsr27xNCEhiFo5KZw@mail.gmail.com>
 <744816EC-9E70-4FCE-A70B-3BAFFBFA7825@gmail.com>
 <CAHUTwkPqRkbreex9mKFL-p9AFyALHuaMmMfmX5xEmPXFtv5_FA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a5Q_Lx=w+1raQVA7PvBReWJLQPLu5gEimAEFraj4vEUYA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <503D2927.7050407@aleph.se>

On 28/08/2012 14:37, Stefano Vaj wrote:
> On Mon, Aug 27, 2012 at 8:11 AM, Charlie Stross
>
>     <charlie.stross at gmail.com <mailto:charlie.stross at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>     > Or even further: *why* do we consider it useful or morally good
>     for everyone to make a tangible contribution?
>
> For instance, a very traditional view is that a given community is 
> automatically entitled to demand that its members support each other 
> and the community as such.
>
> This is certainly true for anthills, eg, and human communities 
> factually governed by such views might even have an evolutionary/game 
> theory/memetic edge on other ones.
>
> In history, however, this contribution never needed be "tangible" in 
> the literal sense of the word. In fact, division of labours allowed 
> societies to have members specialised and permanently engaged in 
> poetry, history, medicine, politics, religion, mathematics, writing, 
> advocacy, trade, etc.


I think it is possible to make a social signalling argument here. 
(Channeling my model of Robin Hanson:) Doing something good for the 
other group members is of course good for them, even though it is costly 
for you. If everybody does it you benefit anyway, thanks to group 
economies of scale. But there is always a temptation to be a defector. 
Hence we look down on people who visibly do not contribute.

But even when we actually don't contribute we might do things that 
*signal* contribution. In fact, doing costly signalling is very 
convincing: if the poet spends so much time on writing, then we assume 
it must be a valuable contribution even though we do not understand the 
poem. Yeah, it is not useful, but it happens to be very patriotic. Or so 
he tells me. Of course, if he is not convincing he will be kicked out, 
so he will be motivated to make it look like he is essential.


-- 
Anders Sandberg,
Future of Humanity Institute
Oxford Martin School
Faculty of Philosophy
Oxford University

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From spike66 at att.net  Wed Aug 29 01:27:27 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2012 18:27:27 -0700
Subject: [ExI] anternet
Message-ID: <035201cd8585$74117c60$5c347520$@att.net>

 

COOL!

 

Stanford researchers discover the 'anternet'

A collaboration between a Stanford ant biologist and a computer scientist
has revealed that the behavior of harvester ants as they forage for food
mirrors the protocols that control traffic on the Internet.

By Bjorn Carey 

Katherine Decktar 

Harvester ant foragers waiting inside the nest.

On the surface, ants and the Internet don't seem to have much in common. But
two Stanford researchers have discovered that a species of harvester ants
determine how many foragers to send out of the nest in much the same way
that Internet protocols discover how much bandwidth is available for the
transfer of data. The researchers are calling it the "anternet.".

 

 

 

 

http://news.stanford.edu/news/2012/august/ants-mimic-internet-082312.html

 

 

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From anders at aleph.se  Wed Aug 29 09:00:03 2012
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2012 11:00:03 +0200
Subject: [ExI] anternet
In-Reply-To: <035201cd8585$74117c60$5c347520$@att.net>
References: <035201cd8585$74117c60$5c347520$@att.net>
Message-ID: <503DDA13.1060704@aleph.se>

On 29/08/2012 03:27, spike wrote:
>
> COOL!
>

I assume you are immediately going to become an anternet hacker?

I remember a cute paper about using crabs in pipes as digital signals, 
where the crabs interacting at crossing produced logic gates. Maybe one 
could do the same thing with the ants? It works in Terry Pratchett's 
novels, anyway.

-- 
Anders Sandberg,
Future of Humanity Institute
Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University

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From kellycoinguy at gmail.com  Wed Aug 29 13:09:21 2012
From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2012 07:09:21 -0600
Subject: [ExI] keynes vs hayek again, was: RE: 3d printers for sale
In-Reply-To: <503A98EB.50506@aleph.se>
References: <032b01cd83a4$94307010$bc915030$@att.net>
 <CAL_armhQbHW1rZ9Zkf9PdzkjEmjAOZm7GdQXKsmLdo3j_8y2ww@mail.gmail.com>
 <503A98EB.50506@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <CAPy8RwYHtm=yA5ZusKi2-xj92h8_-obgfw0hcYazHNymZQtKtQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Aug 26, 2012 at 3:45 PM, Anders Sandberg <anders at aleph.se> wrote:
> (The orthodox libertarian answer is of course that the Market will sort
> things out if the government just got out of the way. Unfortunately 100%
> employment is likely not market efficient. )

Of course there is that faction of the libertarian wing that says it's
ok for government to exist for purposes of war. I fear something like
this might take place as the only way for government to grow if
libertarianism were actually implemented with the current set of
politicians.

-Kelly
PS. I go to court today.


From pharos at gmail.com  Wed Aug 29 16:06:36 2012
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2012 17:06:36 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Phonesat Cubesat for $3500
Message-ID: <CAL_armhEWJqLXxgBQGotW1is7_yNfZmUgcwBQ2mqMetGPXKATg@mail.gmail.com>

PhoneSat ? NASA?s smartphone nanosatellite
August 29, 2012

NASA?s new PhoneSat project at Ames Research Center will soon
demonstrate the ability to launch the lowest-cost and easiest-to-build
satellites ever flown in space by using consumer smartphones.

<http://www.kurzweilai.net/phonesat-nasas-smartphone-nanosatellite>


BillK



From jrd1415 at gmail.com  Wed Aug 29 19:05:07 2012
From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2012 12:05:07 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Assange, Anonymous and Extraditions
In-Reply-To: <CAPoR7a6eshLXKg5_7N--JwhvM+eHtJPJJ9Z8ycuRKhjH+uMgVQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPoR7a6eshLXKg5_7N--JwhvM+eHtJPJJ9Z8ycuRKhjH+uMgVQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHUTwkOizc3eT+7CrWf9hM3A+71-uHEXWwVKXUZg6KPMC45=ag@mail.gmail.com>

My wife says I'm one sick puppy because of my fascination with
Assange.   She's right of course, and not just about Assange.

Anyway,...trying to get at the facts in this business is wonderfully
difficult, and everyone reporting or blogging or commenting is
reveling in a bacchanal of sleaze.  Party down!

For anyone interested here is some indisputably authentic/reliable
documentation in the form of the 68-page Swedish Police Protocol
(investigation report).

http://rixstep.com/1/20110204,04.shtml

The truth will out, the truth wins out. Let no journalist ever again
speculate into what the protocols say. Six months of digging and the
people at Flashback have the actual documents. The sleaze printed by
rags such as the Daily Mail, Sweden's Aftonbladet and Expressen, and
perhaps above all the toxic Nick Davies of the Guardian, can stand no
more. Yet more: these documents are an indictment of the 'news
organisations' who've printed deliberate inaccuracies all along or
even worse: refused to print anything at all. Nick Davies' account of
the protocols was maliciously skewed; both Aftonbladet and Expressen
had copies early on and printed nothing. Bloggers had copies but
arrogantly kept the information to their Smeagol selves.
 - The Assange Police Protocol: Translator's Note

Note of caution: It is my preliminary impression that the website and
its non-protocol commentary have a pro-Assange spin.  Caveat emptor.

Best, Jeff Davis

"Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who
      said it--no matter if I have said it--unless it agrees with
           your own reason and your common sense."
                                                     Buddha


From anders at aleph.se  Wed Aug 29 21:16:01 2012
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2012 22:16:01 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Assange, Anonymous and Extraditions
In-Reply-To: <CAHUTwkOizc3eT+7CrWf9hM3A+71-uHEXWwVKXUZg6KPMC45=ag@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPoR7a6eshLXKg5_7N--JwhvM+eHtJPJJ9Z8ycuRKhjH+uMgVQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHUTwkOizc3eT+7CrWf9hM3A+71-uHEXWwVKXUZg6KPMC45=ag@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <503E8691.2070807@aleph.se>

On 29/08/2012 20:05, Jeff Davis wrote:
> For anyone interested here is some indisputably authentic/reliable
> documentation in the form of the 68-page Swedish Police Protocol
> (investigation report).
>
> http://rixstep.com/1/20110204,04.shtml

I did a cursory comparision with the original (at least I assume so, it 
looks plausible) at 
https://info.publicintelligence.net/AssangeSexAllegations.pdf and it 
looks in the large like a workable translation. However, a lot of the 
interview text is about as messy as spoken language usually is: I 
suspect the translation corrects this (how the heck do you translate 
non-grammatical mumblings?) and this might change the contents in rather 
subtle ways even if the translator is not biased. Which looks pretty 
likely. The translation also leaves out many pages of bureaucratic forms 
that actually carry important legal meaning (but again, translating that 
requires a specialised legal translator to get the terminology right). 
Plus some hilarious forensics where they try to study "The Condom" and 
infer what it can and cannot have experienced. (OK, I have officially 
watched too much CSI)

One of the problems with transparency is that just because information 
is available it doesn't necessarily make sense without context or 
specialised knowledge. To make a *proper* judgement based on these 
documents is pretty hard, but that will not stop people from doing it 
anyway, likely jumping to conclusions they like. This is one of the 
problems we need to solve as we move towards a more transparent world: 
how do we keep the extra information from just feeding existing 
polarisation, and ensure that it actually produces better decisions?




-- 
Anders Sandberg,
Future of Humanity Institute
Oxford Martin School
Faculty of Philosophy
Oxford University



From pharos at gmail.com  Wed Aug 29 21:27:35 2012
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2012 22:27:35 +0100
Subject: [ExI] USA now funds Chinese military
Message-ID: <CAL_armgWYVuZD6nOczm=xMvJ66svuGeBp6frSC7+4x19Mo0LYw@mail.gmail.com>

<http://www.sovereignman.com/expat/some-clear-thinking-on-the-debt-8569/>

If you haven?t heard yet, the United States of America just hit $16
trillion in debt yesterday. On a gross, nominal basis, this makes the
US, by far, the greatest debtor in the history of the world.
At an average interest rate of 2.130%, Uncle Sam will shuffle $340
billion out the door just in interest payments this year? and it?s a
number that?s only going up. To put it in context, China owns so much
US debt that the INTEREST INCOME they receive from the Treasury
Department is nearly enough to fund their entire military budget.
-------------------------


BillK



From spike66 at att.net  Wed Aug 29 21:49:01 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2012 14:49:01 -0700
Subject: [ExI] anternet
In-Reply-To: <503DDA13.1060704@aleph.se>
References: <035201cd8585$74117c60$5c347520$@att.net>
 <503DDA13.1060704@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <04b501cd8630$1a750040$4f5f00c0$@att.net>

 

 

 

On Behalf Of Anders Sandberg
Subject: Re: [ExI] anternet

 

On 29/08/2012 03:27, spike wrote: 

 

COOL!


>.I assume you are immediately going to become an anternet hacker?
-- 

Anders Sandberg,
 
 
 
I tried Anders.  Those two orange trees you recall seeing in my backyard
have aphid-farming ants.  I noticed they run a subroutine: go up tree, get
nectar from aphid, take nectar down tree to nest, repeat until dead.
 
The ants have apparently no means of learning, for no matter what I tried to
do to them, they never could run any other program.  I used tanglefoot
ant-goo to make all the ants cross a narrow strip of paper to go either
direction.  Then I made what I call the double-straw experiment, where they
had to go through one of two tubes, which were not big enough for ants to
pass each other inside.  They got all tangled up in there, so I eventually
simplified it to two holes in the strip of paper, adjacent.  All they had to
figure out is for the holes to be one-way: always go thru the hole on the
right for instance, one hole for upgoing ants, one for downgoing ants.
 
I was most disappointed with them really.  No matter what I did, they never
could figure out how to make both holes into one-way paths.  I tried
dividing the holes with a strip of tanglefoot, I tried coloring them
differently so they could tell the difference, no use.  These little beasts
that can somehow manage to get a completely different beast to hand over
nectar cannot figure out something so simple as making two adjacent paths
into one-ways.  Instead they get all wadded up and piled on top of each
other, many of them getting caught in the damn tanglefoot, generally looking
like the billion stooges.
 
spike
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From spike66 at att.net  Wed Aug 29 23:21:12 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2012 16:21:12 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Assange, Anonymous and Extraditions
In-Reply-To: <CAHUTwkOizc3eT+7CrWf9hM3A+71-uHEXWwVKXUZg6KPMC45=ag@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPoR7a6eshLXKg5_7N--JwhvM+eHtJPJJ9Z8ycuRKhjH+uMgVQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHUTwkOizc3eT+7CrWf9hM3A+71-uHEXWwVKXUZg6KPMC45=ag@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <04e001cd863c$fb146530$f13d2f90$@att.net>



>... On Behalf Of Jeff Davis
Subject: Re: [ExI] Assange, Anonymous and Extraditions

>...My wife says I'm one sick puppy because of my fascination with
Assange.   She's right of course, and not just about Assange.

Nay, me lad.  Assange isn't just about Assange.  This is important stuff.
Privacy policy matters.  Information control needs to be completely
rethought in this age when any yahoo can google up your name and find
everything of importance.  You and I are lucky in that we have options: with
a name like Jeff Davis, well let's see: Spokeo finds 3400 Jeff Davis's in
Texas alone.  Popular name down there in Dixie.

I google on Spike Jones, and find 25,700,000 hits, none of which are mine.

>... is reveling in a bacchanal of sleaze...

You almost make reveling in bacchanal of sleaze sound like a bad thing.


>...Note of caution: It is my preliminary impression that the website and
its non-protocol commentary have a pro-Assange spin.  Caveat emptor.  Best,
Jeff Davis


Ja, but it none of this about Julian Assange.  If he gets anything, the info
has already leaked, upstream of him.  Julian isn't the leaker, only an
endgame player.  The commentaries on his personality traits are completely
irrelevant.  You don't care if your newspaper editor is a difficult bastard,
ja?  Neither do I, doesn't matter.  Do explain to your bride what this
episode is really about.

spike



From spike66 at att.net  Wed Aug 29 23:25:24 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2012 16:25:24 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Assange, Anonymous and Extraditions
In-Reply-To: <503E8691.2070807@aleph.se>
References: <CAPoR7a6eshLXKg5_7N--JwhvM+eHtJPJJ9Z8ycuRKhjH+uMgVQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHUTwkOizc3eT+7CrWf9hM3A+71-uHEXWwVKXUZg6KPMC45=ag@mail.gmail.com>
 <503E8691.2070807@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <04ea01cd863d$9100fae0$b302f0a0$@att.net>


>... On Behalf Of Anders Sandberg
...
>...Plus some hilarious forensics where they try to study "The Condom" and
infer what it can and cannot have experienced. -- Anders Sandberg,


I flatly refuse to use experienced condoms.

spike







From johnkclark at gmail.com  Thu Aug 30 14:05:11 2012
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2012 10:05:11 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Low-calorie diet not linked with longevity
Message-ID: <CAJPayv0TX3Yo-XPvjffJ1YrbO_yH3CwLpYKJ48-6JexCbnNQFQ@mail.gmail.com>

http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/low-calorie-diet-not-linked-with-longevity-in-monkeys-study-finds/2012/08/29/294ec174-f1fa-11e1-a612-3cfc842a6d89_story.html
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From pharos at gmail.com  Thu Aug 30 15:24:49 2012
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2012 16:24:49 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Low-calorie diet not linked with longevity
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv0TX3Yo-XPvjffJ1YrbO_yH3CwLpYKJ48-6JexCbnNQFQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv0TX3Yo-XPvjffJ1YrbO_yH3CwLpYKJ48-6JexCbnNQFQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armi+Vyahv89mJeQpfXD-M9SGBH-ZHBGuAwZKpNXiWxgh1Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Aug 30, 2012 at 3:05 PM, John Clark  wrote:
> http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/low-calorie-diet-not-linked-with-longevity-in-monkeys-study-finds/2012/08/29/294ec174-f1fa-11e1-a612-3cfc842a6d89_story.html
>
>


I don't think it is all bad news.  They say that the reduced calorie
group stayed healthy for longer, so there are health benefits to be
gained. And it is obvious that obesity brings disease and earlier
death.

One researcher commented that the comparison depends on the state of
the control group. If the control group eats normally, but still a
reasonably healthy diet, then they are probably near the max lifespan
anyway.
"He notes that calorie restriction produces a bigger effect on
longevity "if the control group is couch potatoes".


BillK


From sparge at gmail.com  Thu Aug 30 15:49:59 2012
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2012 11:49:59 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Low-calorie diet not linked with longevity
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armi+Vyahv89mJeQpfXD-M9SGBH-ZHBGuAwZKpNXiWxgh1Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv0TX3Yo-XPvjffJ1YrbO_yH3CwLpYKJ48-6JexCbnNQFQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armi+Vyahv89mJeQpfXD-M9SGBH-ZHBGuAwZKpNXiWxgh1Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2fBoW+Uu1ZoDVHRFXye=c9af6Rv=ceOjgw4-t5EM6Gugg@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Aug 30, 2012 at 11:24 AM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:

> "He notes that calorie restriction produces a bigger effect on
> longevity "if the control group is couch potatoes".
>

Seems to me that calorie restriction's effect on longevity is independent
of any control group. If the CR and control groups have different levels of
activity, then the results observed may be a result of that, rather than CR.

-Dave
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From natasha at natasha.cc  Thu Aug 30 16:10:15 2012
From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More)
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2012 09:10:15 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Giuseppe Vatinno
Message-ID: <003601cd86c9$f1a3e150$d4eba3f0$@natasha.cc>

Hi -

 

Does anyone know Vatinno personally or have a means to contact him?

 

Thank you,

 

Natasha

 

 <http://www.natasha.cc/> Natasha Vita-More, PhD

 

 

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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Thu Aug 30 16:30:08 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2012 18:30:08 +0200
Subject: [ExI] =?windows-1252?q?Severe_Diet_Doesn=92t_Prolong_Life=2C_at_L?=
	=?windows-1252?q?east_in_Monkeys?=
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a5y+B_7sX-yfOLwxhitRz0gWHqyRFT=R369tOQBGfSRcA@mail.gmail.com>

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/30/science/low-calorie-diet-doesnt-prolong-life-study-of-monkeys-finds.html?src=un&feedurl=http%3A%2F%2Fjson8.nytimes.com%2Fpages%2Fscience%2Findex.jsonp

Lifespans are not so malleable. But I suspect that a "paleo" lifestyle (ie,
removing as much as possible vegetables, such as cereals, potatoes,
high-glycemic fruits and legumes, etc., from your diet) works much more
than caloric restriction. Let alone in terms of quality, besides duration,
of life.

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Thu Aug 30 16:32:20 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2012 18:32:20 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Giuseppe Vatinno
In-Reply-To: <003601cd86c9$f1a3e150$d4eba3f0$@natasha.cc>
References: <003601cd86c9$f1a3e150$d4eba3f0$@natasha.cc>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a72+FeN5FRAzKACUZuw-0D-GEXO6ec2vX73aiEpMq0iCA@mail.gmail.com>

On 30 August 2012 18:10, Natasha Vita-More <natasha at natasha.cc> wrote:

> Does anyone know Vatinno personally or have a means to contact him?
>

Of course. He has been for a while a fellow member and an officer of
the Associazione
Italiana Transumanisti <http://www.transumanisti.it>.

In fact, I think you may have met him yourself.

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Thu Aug 30 16:37:07 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2012 18:37:07 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Low-calorie diet not linked with longevity
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2fBoW+Uu1ZoDVHRFXye=c9af6Rv=ceOjgw4-t5EM6Gugg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv0TX3Yo-XPvjffJ1YrbO_yH3CwLpYKJ48-6JexCbnNQFQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armi+Vyahv89mJeQpfXD-M9SGBH-ZHBGuAwZKpNXiWxgh1Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2fBoW+Uu1ZoDVHRFXye=c9af6Rv=ceOjgw4-t5EM6Gugg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a5O6ZcqB6=9tca5bOXBC4kiXC2+7CSyS_9DJBcnuV4QuQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 30 August 2012 17:49, Dave Sill <sparge at gmail.com> wrote:

> Seems to me that calorie restriction's effect on longevity is independent
> of any control group.
>

As Dr. Atkins was fond of saying (quoting by heart): "I do not know whether
to undergo severe caloric restriction would allow you to live 120 years.
But for sure it would feel like it." :-)

OTOH, what I am persuaded of, upon anedoctical but consistent evidence, is
that caloric restriction limits to some extent the adverse effects of
hi-carbo and vegetarian diets...

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From pharos at gmail.com  Thu Aug 30 16:54:57 2012
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2012 17:54:57 +0100
Subject: [ExI]
	=?windows-1252?q?Severe_Diet_Doesn=92t_Prolong_Life=2C_at_L?=
	=?windows-1252?q?east_in_Monkeys?=
In-Reply-To: <CAPoR7a5y+B_7sX-yfOLwxhitRz0gWHqyRFT=R369tOQBGfSRcA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPoR7a5y+B_7sX-yfOLwxhitRz0gWHqyRFT=R369tOQBGfSRcA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armjWhg25Gm1BJw88TPYjq9xU3hpSOm0uK_SzPeTo1heRWg@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Aug 30, 2012 at 5:30 PM, Stefano Vaj  wrote:
> http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/30/science/low-calorie-diet-doesnt-prolong-life-study-of-monkeys-finds.html?src=un&feedurl=http%3A%2F%2Fjson8.nytimes.com%2Fpages%2Fscience%2Findex.jsonp
>
> Lifespans are not so malleable. But I suspect that a "paleo" lifestyle (ie,
> removing as much as possible vegetables, such as cereals, potatoes,
> high-glycemic fruits and legumes, etc., from your diet) works much more than
> caloric restriction. Let alone in terms of quality, besides duration, of
> life.
>
>

I thought a paleo diet (at least some versions of it) included quite a
lot of fruit and veg and nuts. It is cereal foods mainly that they
avoid.


BillK


From max at maxmore.com  Thu Aug 30 17:41:52 2012
From: max at maxmore.com (Max More)
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2012 10:41:52 -0700
Subject: [ExI]
	=?windows-1252?q?Severe_Diet_Doesn=92t_Prolong_Life=2C_at_L?=
	=?windows-1252?q?east_in_Monkeys?=
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armjWhg25Gm1BJw88TPYjq9xU3hpSOm0uK_SzPeTo1heRWg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPoR7a5y+B_7sX-yfOLwxhitRz0gWHqyRFT=R369tOQBGfSRcA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armjWhg25Gm1BJw88TPYjq9xU3hpSOm0uK_SzPeTo1heRWg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJX-7wWAn+bj5KOi_qsNo9QgAKvyiZbyPFHkVm8FpGTNWxUkSw@mail.gmail.com>

Cereals, potatoes, and legumes are avoided on a paleo diet, vegetables are
definitely favored, but paleo types vary considerably when it comes the
amount and type of fruits and nuts consumed. A common paleo view is that
fruit has been bred to be much sweeter than the fruit we adapted to.
However, Denise Minger made a fascinating and detail case against that view:
http://rawfoodsos.com/2011/05/31/wild-and-ancient-fruit/

Most paleos seem to favor only modest amounts of nuts.

--Max


On Thu, Aug 30, 2012 at 9:54 AM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thu, Aug 30, 2012 at 5:30 PM, Stefano Vaj  wrote:
> >
> http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/30/science/low-calorie-diet-doesnt-prolong-life-study-of-monkeys-finds.html?src=un&feedurl=http%3A%2F%2Fjson8.nytimes.com%2Fpages%2Fscience%2Findex.jsonp
> >
> > Lifespans are not so malleable. But I suspect that a "paleo" lifestyle
> (ie,
> > removing as much as possible vegetables, such as cereals, potatoes,
> > high-glycemic fruits and legumes, etc., from your diet) works much more
> than
> > caloric restriction. Let alone in terms of quality, besides duration, of
> > life.
> >
> >
>
> I thought a paleo diet (at least some versions of it) included quite a
> lot of fruit and veg and nuts. It is cereal foods mainly that they
> avoid.
>
>
> BillK
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>



-- 
Max More, PhD
Strategic Philosopher
Co-editor, *The Transhumanist Reader*
President & CEO, Alcor Life Extension Foundation
7895 E. Acoma Dr # 110
Scottsdale, AZ 85260
480/905-1906 ext 113
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From max at maxmore.com  Thu Aug 30 17:47:14 2012
From: max at maxmore.com (Max More)
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2012 10:47:14 -0700
Subject: [ExI]
	=?windows-1252?q?Severe_Diet_Doesn=92t_Prolong_Life=2C_at_L?=
	=?windows-1252?q?east_in_Monkeys?=
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armjWhg25Gm1BJw88TPYjq9xU3hpSOm0uK_SzPeTo1heRWg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPoR7a5y+B_7sX-yfOLwxhitRz0gWHqyRFT=R369tOQBGfSRcA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armjWhg25Gm1BJw88TPYjq9xU3hpSOm0uK_SzPeTo1heRWg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJX-7wUC5aAaUfiP7zDQ3Nrd2W1qNHy2T6qh3LtgY2mV72PrTg@mail.gmail.com>

Right after I replied on this topic, I noticed that I had some new results
from 23andMe. Coincidentally, one of these is for hereditary fructose
intolerance. As always, any general approach to diet should be considering
in light of your personal genetics. The new entry says:

Hereditary fructose intolerance (HFI) is a genetic condition in which
affected individuals are not able to break down fructose. Fructose is a
sugar found in fruit, but it is also in many of the sugars we use to
sweeten our foods, such as white cane sugar and high-fructose corn syrup.
HFI is caused by mutations in the aldolase B (ALDOB)
gene<https://www.23andme.com/you/journal/fructose_intolerance/overview/#Gene>and
is inherited in an autosomal recessive manner, which means that a person
must inherit a mutated copy of the gene from each parent to develop the
disease. Approximately one in 20,000 individuals of European ancestry has
HFI, and about 1% of people with European ancestry is a carrier for the
condition. Although HFI can be fatal if untreated, with early detection and
a fructose-free diet individuals with HFI may lead a normal and healthy
life.

My result:
Does not have any of the ALDOB mutations reported by 23andMe. May still
have other mutations in ALDOB.

--Max


On Thu, Aug 30, 2012 at 9:54 AM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thu, Aug 30, 2012 at 5:30 PM, Stefano Vaj  wrote:
> >
> http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/30/science/low-calorie-diet-doesnt-prolong-life-study-of-monkeys-finds.html?src=un&feedurl=http%3A%2F%2Fjson8.nytimes.com%2Fpages%2Fscience%2Findex.jsonp
> >
> > Lifespans are not so malleable. But I suspect that a "paleo" lifestyle
> (ie,
> > removing as much as possible vegetables, such as cereals, potatoes,
> > high-glycemic fruits and legumes, etc., from your diet) works much more
> than
> > caloric restriction. Let alone in terms of quality, besides duration, of
> > life.
> >
> >
>
> I thought a paleo diet (at least some versions of it) included quite a
> lot of fruit and veg and nuts. It is cereal foods mainly that they
> avoid.
>
>
> BillK
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>



-- 
Max More, PhD
Strategic Philosopher
Co-editor, *The Transhumanist Reader*
President & CEO, Alcor Life Extension Foundation
7895 E. Acoma Dr # 110
Scottsdale, AZ 85260
480/905-1906 ext 113
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From jrd1415 at gmail.com  Thu Aug 30 19:04:03 2012
From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis)
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2012 12:04:03 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Self-driving cars
Message-ID: <CAHUTwkORytdRB20LnrKcHwcnu7mj-=cnAJAX0O1inW7a0pgVPQ@mail.gmail.com>

This article from Brian Wang's Next Big Future

http://archive.feedblitz.com/64651/~4225771/14734665/402ea13060affe9a87245d9b2ace89b8#64651_6

adds to the conversation.

Increased highway capacity -- up to 400% -- and better energy
efficiency due to "drafting".

With the deployment of "smartness" and electric vehicles, we gain from
a number of synergies.  Reduced emissions, safer transport (major
gains in productivity, cost-reduction, and grief-avoidance), quieter
transport, fully automated (ie cheaper) cargo transport, reduced
dependence/price of hydrocarbon energy sources.

A smart world is an efficient world, where everyone gets a first world
standard of living without burning up the commons.

Best, Jeff Davis

 "And I think to myself, what a wonderful world!"
                 Louie Armstrong


From msd001 at gmail.com  Thu Aug 30 19:29:02 2012
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2012 15:29:02 -0400
Subject: [ExI] anternet
In-Reply-To: <04b501cd8630$1a750040$4f5f00c0$@att.net>
References: <035201cd8585$74117c60$5c347520$@att.net>
 <503DDA13.1060704@aleph.se>
 <04b501cd8630$1a750040$4f5f00c0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAOJFdbKKxPxDGPvqYOqYy61_d1Ltr6B1mL8Aog1JcNSrGd8+oA@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Aug 29, 2012 at 5:49 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> I was most disappointed with them really.  No matter what I did, they never
> could figure out how to make both holes into one-way paths.  I tried
> dividing the holes with a strip of tanglefoot, I tried coloring them
> differently so they could tell the difference, no use.  These little beasts
> that can somehow manage to get a completely different beast to hand over
> nectar cannot figure out something so simple as making two adjacent paths
> into one-ways.  Instead they get all wadded up and piled on top of each
> other, many of them getting caught in the damn tanglefoot, generally looking
> like the billion stooges.

Do ants see color?  do they see it well enough to use it for
information?  I would be disappointed too if I put braille signs
behind glass that read either "push or pull" but people ignored the
signs completely.  It wouldn't be surprising that sighted individuals
would not even notice braille or that non-sighted would not be able to
feel braille behind glass.  (as contrived as this is, I saw a McD's
with exactly this situation.  I collect these amusing observations
else I'd have ignored it too)

Is there a chemical signal for "don't go in there" that could be
placed around the exit tunnel such that ants approaching would be less
likely to approach it without impeding the progress of ants already in
the tunnel going in the "correct" direction as they approach the exit?

And are the chemical trails used by the ants sufficiently powerful to
override anything you might come up with?  If the natural environment
lacks one-way streets, the traffic line to&from may be too strong to
program around.  If you hated to be wet and I sprayed you with water
each time you ate, your hunger would eventually overcome your
preference to remain dry.  Ants following their 'subroutine' don't
have much reason to deviate from that program in the natural world, do
they?


From spike66 at att.net  Thu Aug 30 23:12:15 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2012 16:12:15 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Low-calorie diet not linked with longevity
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armi+Vyahv89mJeQpfXD-M9SGBH-ZHBGuAwZKpNXiWxgh1Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv0TX3Yo-XPvjffJ1YrbO_yH3CwLpYKJ48-6JexCbnNQFQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armi+Vyahv89mJeQpfXD-M9SGBH-ZHBGuAwZKpNXiWxgh1Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <070701cd8704$e5ad6f20$b1084d60$@att.net>



...
> I don't think it is all bad news.  They say that the reduced calorie group
stayed healthy for longer, so there are health benefits to be gained. And it
is obvious that obesity brings disease and earlier death.  BillK
_______________________________________________


Ja.  CR doesn't necessarily add years to your life but it adds hunger to
your ye...  wait, I meant, it subtracts food from your...  wait, no...



From spike66 at att.net  Fri Aug 31 15:24:25 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2012 08:24:25 -0700
Subject: [ExI] starving monkeys
Message-ID: <010801cd878c$b4af7020$1e0e5060$@att.net>

 

 


Severe Diet Doesn't Prolong Life, at Least in Monkeys


By GINA KOLATA
<http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/k/gina_kolata/in
dex.html> 


 

>.For 25 years, the rhesus monkeys were kept semi-starved, lean and hungry.
The males' weights were so low they were the equivalent of a 6-foot-tall man
who tipped the scales at just 120 to 133 pounds. The hope was that if the
monkeys lived longer, healthier lives by eating a lot less, then maybe
people, their evolutionary cousins, would, too. Some scientists,
anticipating such benefits, began severely restricting their own diets. 

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/30/science/low-calorie-diet-doesnt-prolong-li
fe-study-of-monkeys-finds.html?_r=1
<http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/30/science/low-calorie-diet-doesnt-prolong-l
ife-study-of-monkeys-finds.html?_r=1&adxnnl=1&adxnnlx=1346426271-s1lPqKQHeUe
oVHGYFUtjGw> &adxnnl=1&adxnnlx=1346426271-s1lPqKQHeUeoVHGYFUtjGw

 

 

This study really caught my attention because of the second sentence.  I am
a six-ft tall man and my weight is right in the middle of the range they
give to describe the monkeys they kept "semi-starved, lean and hungry."  On
a side note, the window of opportunity to replicate these tests may be
closing.  Animal rights activists may eventually shut down all such efforts.

 

spike  

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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Fri Aug 31 15:21:13 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2012 17:21:13 +0200
Subject: [ExI]
	=?windows-1252?q?Severe_Diet_Doesn=92t_Prolong_Life=2C_at_L?=
	=?windows-1252?q?east_in_Monkeys?=
In-Reply-To: <CAJX-7wWAn+bj5KOi_qsNo9QgAKvyiZbyPFHkVm8FpGTNWxUkSw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPoR7a5y+B_7sX-yfOLwxhitRz0gWHqyRFT=R369tOQBGfSRcA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armjWhg25Gm1BJw88TPYjq9xU3hpSOm0uK_SzPeTo1heRWg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJX-7wWAn+bj5KOi_qsNo9QgAKvyiZbyPFHkVm8FpGTNWxUkSw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a75kEPP=jcTeHLm_a63=UUPpYpfZabQgVbO3pd0d+nGbw@mail.gmail.com>

On 30 August 2012 19:41, Max More <max at maxmore.com> wrote:

> Cereals, potatoes, and legumes are avoided on a paleo diet, vegetables are
> definitely favored, but paleo types vary considerably when it comes the
> amount and type of fruits and nuts consumed.
>

Yes, exactly, especially if you are a neo-Atkinsonite like mysef. :-)

But while a rigid eskimo-style nutrition seems unobjectionable from a paleo
POV, I do eat plenty of leaves salads and herbs myself, such as lettuce,
chicory, basil, spinach, rocket and other I would be not be able to name in
English (hey, even my cat chew a little catnip from time to time, so I
guess this does not disqualify me as a bona fide carnivorous).

For fruits, I am well aware of their deplorable sugar content :-), but have
two criteria:
i) favour the kinds of fruit which is either not cultivated or at least
not  the recent product of caloric-efficient agricultural selection and
hybridation, and which have the best ratio between sugar and vitanutrients
(for both purposes, wild berries would seem the best around...);
ii) limit the quantity anyway, which is the very exception for a diet where
you have limit in the kind but not in the amount of caloric intake.
I am not so persuaded about the diffidence against nuts, OTOH.

At the same time, I am always amazed at the kind of ideological bias and
hostility that even some transhumanists (say, Tarrero or Pearce) regularly
express on the subject.

I am fully in favour, say, of growing meat (or vegetables, for that
matter)) in vials, but I do not really feel like recommending autotrophy or
veganism simply because the tech is not there yet.

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From dynetis at hotmail.com  Fri Aug 31 19:30:15 2012
From: dynetis at hotmail.com (Jerome Renaux)
Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2012 21:30:15 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Fund raising for a master in artificial intelligence
Message-ID: <SNT133-W25EACC9F8186FC11BA2BC3B7A60@phx.gbl>


Dear extropians;

I've been silently reading the list for a little more than two years and have benefited from it a great deal. It introduced me to transhumanism and to a score of fascinating topics, one of them being artificial intelligence. I quickly became vividly interested in that field, especially since I was already studying neurosciences at university and have always been very interested in computer sciences. 

I recently graduated in neuropsychology, and have also acquired a good background in linguistics and statistics these past few years. Then, I applied to a very interesting one-year study programme in artificial intelligence (http://www.mai.kuleuven.be/), and had the immense joy of being admitted. I'm thrilled about the perspectives it will open to me. However, this endeavor has a cost, and I'll need help to cover it. That's why I decided to open an Indiegogo fund raising campaign. Here is the link to the campaign : http://www.indiegogo.com/AI-dream .

For those who do not know about it, Indiegogo is a very well designed platform to easily set up fund raising campaigns that can grow very successful. One of the most recent and talked-about successes was the raise of more than 1 million USD to make a Tesla museum on the old Wardenclyffe site (http://www.indiegogo.com/teslamuseum). Considerable projects can get funds on this platform, and I think it might interests some people on the list, regardless of my own campaign. 

Since my interest in AI was born here, I thought about turning to the list for my first call. I thought that some of you, also interested in artificial intelligence, might be sympathetic to my cause. Especially, the "reward" I'm willing to offer might interest some of you (see the description of the campaign).

Aside of financial help, your comments could be very helpful and will be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.

Best regards;

Jerome Renaux
 		 	   		  
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From spike66 at att.net  Fri Aug 31 19:31:38 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2012 12:31:38 -0700
Subject: [ExI] 100 yr old on leno,
	was:  RE: 	Severe Diet Doesn't Prolong Life, at Least in Monkeys
Message-ID: <01c901cd87af$3e80d6f0$bb8284d0$@att.net>

 

 

Priceless:

 

http://www.lolbucket.com/video/KN5K8Y4S1AMA/100-year-old-Idaho-woman-on-Jay-
Leno-show

 

spike

 

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