[ExI] repercieve the economy [was: Engineering]

ablainey at aol.com ablainey at aol.com
Fri Dec 21 19:26:57 UTC 2012

I think Spike gets it.
Its a natural drive toward the greater good by the application of a libertarian economy and removing much of governments real power. Everyone gets to create money. How much they create depends on them being as efficient and innovative as possible which benefits everyone.
Its a politically dangerous idea. However it is already happening with micro generation and many are cashing in, me included.
A cynic might say this is exactly the reason why politicians always seem to opt for idiotic solutions rather than properly support home energy production?



-----Original Message-----
From: spike <spike66 at att.net>
To: 'ExI chat list' <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Fri, 21 Dec 2012 18:38
Subject: Re: [ExI] repercieve the economy [was: Engineering]

>... On Behalf Of Mirco Romanato
Subject: Re: [ExI] repercieve the economy [was: Engineering]

Il 21/12/2012 14:20, ablainey at aol.com ha scritto:

>>... I fully agree Spike, Energy already is money... 

>...The problem is how the masses can understand the problem when smart elites 
have problem grasping the problem?

The massed do not need to understand the problem.  Only the investors.  If they 
fail, they're broke.  Otherwise, rich.  There are mountains of money going 
unmade here.

>...Energy is consumed where gold is recycled...

Renewable energy is recycled.

>...A currency based on energy give a lot of power to the people producing 

Precisely so, sir, thanks.  That would be us.

>... (they have the money printer)...

Ja and those of us who have a renewable source, even a very limited one, would 
then have a money printer, even if a small one.

>...and force the other people to depend from them...

...with the exception of those who have renewable energy sources.  This would 
force people to depend on themselves.

>... Obviously we are talking about legal tender with a monopoly imposed by the 
force of the government, otherwise there would not be reason to argue...

No argument here, you are right.  If energy is money, that breaks the government 
monopoly on legal tender, and we cannot have that, now can we?

>...It would be an improvement over fiat money, but would be vastly less useful 
than gold, silver or bitcoin.

Agree with the first part, disagree with the second.  Energy makes great 
currency because it has real, rather than arbitrary, value.  Energy is life.  
Life is valuable.  Therefore energy is valuable.

>...I want something that I can hold in my hand and I have total control over. 
Something I can move around how I see fit and useful to myself and my goals...

Exactly!  Me too.

>...Something other people can not create, destroy or take away at will without 
a large effort and a lot of work and cost...

Partially agree.  I want something other people can create, but cannot take 

>...How much energy I can hold in my hand?

Signor Mirco, I don't know how sturdy a lad you are, so I can only do BOTECs on 
myself.  I have no problem hoisting my five gallon (20 liter) gasoline can in 
one paw, and gasoline is a bit over 30 kiloWatt-hours per gallon, so I can hold 
over 150 kWh in my hand.  I have a 50 liter tank I use as an external on my 
motorcycle, so that is over 400 kWh.

>... How much energy can I move from here to there using my car?

My Detroit has a 33 gallon tank, intentionally oversized for hauling.  Without 
external tanks, that is already over a megawatt hour.

>... How much this energy will last if I don't use it?

With fuel stabilizer, over a year easy.

>...3) What prevent the emitter(s) from reducing the production and raising the 
value of the single unit of energy...

...spot shortages are prevented by massive redundancy in the hands of millions 
of energy-producing proles.

>... Less he produce more it is valuable.  Mirco

Agreed, and the more valuable, the more the millions of other proles compensate 
to meet the common need.  For profit of course.

This is a system which would encourage the development of renewable sources by 
market forces rather than by whimsical and illogical government action in the 
form of tax credits.  It takes government and energy speculators out of the 
loop.  It puts engineering skills and individual thinking into the loop.

Consider for a minute all the collective intellectual energy is poured into the 
choice of what car we drive.  Now as an intellectual exercise, remove the sheet 
metal from the outside, and look at just the drivetrain and electronics.  If you 
do that, you see that there really isn't nearly as much variation as we would 
think, given the nearly infinite variety we perceive in car choices.  Most of 
this intellectual energy is really wasted, focusing on trivial variations in how 
sheet metal is fashioned, paint choices, a dash of chrome here and there.  So 
most automotive engineering today is really just marketing.

What if all that intellectual energy on the part of the consumer could instead 
be focused on something that matters, such as figuring out how to use one's 
financial resources, roof area, sun exposure, and so on, to figure out how best 
to set up ground based solar power?  And what if a fraction of the intellectual 
energy we waste on football and American Idol is used instead to ponder how best 
to use the energy each prole produces, working towards increasing efficiencies 
and smarter, more productive ways to live our lives.



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