[ExI] repercieve the economy [was: Engineering]

[ablainey at aol.com]

Check your premises. You are still thinking in terms of money with a dynamic floating value and instant debt creation. When was the last time you saw a KW change energy content according to who sold it? It can't.

 Also think how inflation can occur? can you devalue a fixed unit of energy? 
How is producing your own energy going to create debt? Do you need to pay that energy back to the fed + usury? If you do borrow and incur interest, that interest is paid with your future energy generation. Which only costs you time.
You simply allocate the energy units to the creditor when you do generate it. I could do that right now as the infrastructure already exists. I have a grid tie solar setup, a feed in tarrif and a bank account. Currently the meter reads in kWh, that is converted and I am paid for generation in £ and then my creditors take payment in £. There is no real reason why the kWh need to be converted during the process. They already have a guarenteed 25 year fixed monetary value per unit. I could in theory set up a loan today using future energy generation as a guarantee. Then use that loan to put more panels on the roof or improve the efficiency of the system. thus increasing my income.


-----Original Message-----
From: Mirco Romanato <painlord2k at libero.it>
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Sat, 22 Dec 2012 23:02
Subject: Re: [ExI] repercieve the economy [was: Engineering]


Il 22/12/2012 15:46, ablainey at aol.com ha scritto:
> 
> 
>>> ... On Behalf Of Mirco Romanato
> 
> 
> 
>>Money is money because it can change hands, usually any hand. How do you
>>plan to sell your energy to others? In what form? Gasoline from corn is
>>not the same as diesel from algae or electricity connected to the grid.
>>They could be money, but they are different money from each other. It is
>>like having to deal with US$, €, yen and every one can be used only for
>>a limited subset of purchases.
> 
> Money will still be money, only it will be backed by something that
> exists or is known to exist.

So, it is not money but credit.
Money is not baked by anything. But they are simply promises you will be
able to use them to purchase what you want in future.
A gold coin or a silver coin have value for themselves, not for who
promise they will have value in future.

> Not backed by nothing or created from debt
> or backed by something that may or may not exist in the ground somewhere.

The US$ was backed by gold before it was not. What would prevent the
people from backing their currency with energy (whatever it be) and then
take back their promise to deliver it when asked?

> Exchange rates already exist for energy, KW to BTU to Joule......The
> value of each energy source is calculable. You can use whatever
> universal symbol you want or convert to/from any other.
> the financial infrastructure that exists doesn't care if you change the
> $ prefix to a KW or any other denomination.

If they don't care, there is no difference from a unbacked Fed Note and
your system. They are all debit based. And debits are promises made to
be broken some day.

Do you understand there is something called Counterpart Risk?
The risk the other will not fulfill his promises.

> No man is an island in any type of economy. How can you underbid? The
> energy is the money. Why would you sell energy at lower than its value?
> Will you sell me $100 for $50? If so im happy to buy.

No, they will simply outbought you like the Chinese are doing with the
Egyptians. The prices of things will go up in term of energy required to
be given. In the case of Chinese and Egyptians, Chinese pigs will eat
before Egypt inhabitants because the Chinese want eat pig and will pay
the pig enough to allow the pig farm to buy corn at prices higher than
Egyptians. The owner of the power plant will simply be able to pay
higher prices for everything and you with your limited production will
have the same money you have before but with higher prices. So you will
be poorer.

I would suggest you to to read Rothbard's "Man, Economy and State".
After reading the first few chapters you should understand why when
money increase in quantity people are worse off.

> you are not producing it at lower cost. You are just producing it. The
> efficiency at which you produce it does not change the value of the
> product only your profitability.

It change the prices of all other goods for you.

> Yes I will need your steel. How much energy you produce or have stored
> doesn't effect the cost of the steel.

If you pay in energy it effect the price because energy is the money
used to pay for it in your system, isn't it?

If they pay in energy it is cheaper to produce for them than for you,
they can buy more steel than you and they will drive the price higher.
If they are much more efficient than you to produce energy, they will
drive prices so high you will not be able to produce energy in any
competitive way with them. You will work at loss (because your input
will cost, in energy, more than your output in energy).


> The bank balance of a steel mill
> doesn't effect the price of its product, the market value does.
> Your increased efficiency relates to your profit not my buying power.

If I and others are much more efficient than you, your buying power will
not buy anything.

Mirco





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