From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Sun Jul  1 12:17:05 2012
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2012 05:17:05 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Asteroid search mission looking for funding
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB6nZ3cnMtpLBrs+NTPvoYL8JfF5CHZKEZ=-S+tTgL2Atw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jul 1, 2012 at 5:00 AM,  Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> How are launch costs going to come down?  Only one of these
> is likely to be able to do anything about that.

Oddly, I am going to be talking about this very subject (Skylon and
laser propulsion) at ESTEC about this Monday and Tue of this week.

Keith


From atymes at gmail.com  Sun Jul  1 16:37:23 2012
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2012 09:37:23 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Asteroid search mission looking for funding
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB6nZ3cnMtpLBrs+NTPvoYL8JfF5CHZKEZ=-S+tTgL2Atw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB6nZ3cnMtpLBrs+NTPvoYL8JfF5CHZKEZ=-S+tTgL2Atw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNSP80EM81J0hHqoSH+AmubX3O_TXMOuS6-O11JuUnj8MQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jul 1, 2012 at 5:17 AM, Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, Jul 1, 2012 at 5:00 AM,  Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:
>> How are launch costs going to come down?  Only one of these
>> is likely to be able to do anything about that.
>
> Oddly, I am going to be talking about this very subject (Skylon and
> laser propulsion) at ESTEC about this Monday and Tue of this week.

Yes, but which one of the two - a charity mission, or a business - is
more likely to give you money for that?  ;)


From lubkin at unreasonable.com  Wed Jul  4 18:59:58 2012
From: lubkin at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin)
Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2012 14:59:58 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Cyborg news
Message-ID: <201207041951.q64Jpptw004777@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

<http://www2.electronicproducts.com/New_chemical_circuit_enables_control_of_muscles_in_our_bodies-article-olcn_jul2012-html.aspx>

New chemical circuit enables control of muscles in our bodies

<http://www2.electronicproducts.com/New_robot_beats_humans_in_rock_paper_scissors_100_of_the_time-article-fajb_robot_rock_paper_jul2012-html.aspx>

New robot beats humans in rock, paper, scissors 100% of the time


-- David.



From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Thu Jul  5 15:36:44 2012
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 08:36:44 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Naked Mole Rat.
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB44Si7sq9wqzXnMLAkhWy6yykufw=1Yud91+ONeDqykJw@mail.gmail.com>

We have talked about naked mole rats here for years.  Kethi

^^^^^^^^^^^

 Naked mole rat may hold the secret to long life
  July 4, 2012
  ...................................

Researchers in Israel and the U.S. are working to uncover the secret
to the naked mole rat?s long ? and active ? lifespan. High levels of
brain-protecting protein are unique in the rodent, say Tel Aviv
University (TAU) researchers. Compared to the average three year life
span of a common rat, the 10 to 30 year life of [...]

MORE | http://kurzweilai.us1.list-manage.com/track/click?u=aad1a7eea269839c7d10845e8&id=95dedd64d0&e=6ccbd62dbf



From dan_ust at yahoo.com  Thu Jul  5 18:36:14 2012
From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan)
Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 11:36:14 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Naked Mole Rat.
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB44Si7sq9wqzXnMLAkhWy6yykufw=1Yud91+ONeDqykJw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB44Si7sq9wqzXnMLAkhWy6yykufw=1Yud91+ONeDqykJw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1341513374.20220.YahooMailNeo@web160606.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

Uplift candidate?

I'm really surprised no one commented on the Higgs boson news.

Regards,

Dan
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From sjv2006 at gmail.com  Thu Jul  5 19:19:31 2012
From: sjv2006 at gmail.com (Stephen Van Sickle)
Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 12:19:31 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Naked Mole Rat.
In-Reply-To: <1341513374.20220.YahooMailNeo@web160606.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <CAPiwVB44Si7sq9wqzXnMLAkhWy6yykufw=1Yud91+ONeDqykJw@mail.gmail.com>
 <1341513374.20220.YahooMailNeo@web160606.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CADYziYCahJ=yp62mPpZcc+mOegsDtmHh9mr0teum1o46cCyA9g@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jul 5, 2012 at 11:36 AM, Dan <dan_ust at yahoo.com> wrote:

> I'm really surprised no one commented on the Higgs boson news.


Very well.

A Higgs Boson walks into a Catholic church. Priest says "What are you
doing here?" The Higgs Boson says "You can't have mass without me"


From spike66 at att.net  Thu Jul  5 19:51:48 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 12:51:48 -0700
Subject: [ExI] higgs boson: was RE:  Naked Mole Rat.
Message-ID: <013901cd5ae7$9da67710$d8f36530$@att.net>

 

From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Dan
.

>.I'm really surprised no one commented on the Higgs boson news.

Regards,

Dan 

 

 

We knew it was there.  Americans are pissed because we canceled the program
that would have found it.  

 

}8-[

 

Cool that they found it however. 

 

{8-]

 

spike

 

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From anders at aleph.se  Thu Jul  5 21:53:59 2012
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2012 22:53:59 +0100
Subject: [ExI] higgs boson: was RE:  Naked Mole Rat.
In-Reply-To: <013901cd5ae7$9da67710$d8f36530$@att.net>
References: <013901cd5ae7$9da67710$d8f36530$@att.net>
Message-ID: <4FF60CF7.9080402@aleph.se>

We are too cool to fall for the Higgsmania.

Besides, it just confirmed the Standard Model we already believed in. It 
would have been far more fun (but bad for funding) if it had been proven 
not to exist.

-- 
Anders Sandberg,
Future of Humanity Institute
Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University



From pharos at gmail.com  Fri Jul  6 08:06:32 2012
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2012 09:06:32 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Gov surveillance here to stay
Message-ID: <CAL_armha5wrNysbR+5tBTEiOvtRi+M-6RyMiXEFfxmSQV5eUSA@mail.gmail.com>

The Wall Street Journal reports:
Libya's caretaker government has quietly reactivated some of the
interception equipment that fallen dictator Moammar Gadhafi once used
to spy on his opponents.
<http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304782404577488493816611850.html>

Quote:
Libya is among the post-Arab Spring nations grappling with a difficult
question as they move toward democracy: Whether or not to use the
security tools left behind by former dictators.
------------

And the answer is 'Yes'. It is too good not to use. The oppressed
become the new oppressors.
Every gov that gets surveillance techniques will use it and increase
the capability.
Why do you think your lovely smartphone includes unique ID, GPS,
camera and microphone?
(which can be remotely activated or have spying software installed
without your permission).

The future is here already. You must assume that every use of your
phone, or internet access is recorded and scanned for possible threats
to the state.
If you are not plotting, then it will be no immediate inconvenience to you.

But if you ever come to the attention of the authorities for *any*
reason, all your records will be retrieved and analysed.
The Miranda warning applies to all your electronic communications.
".... anything the person says will be used against that person in court".

Supercomputers and unlimited data storage enables the state to treat
everyone as a potential criminal, so everything they do or say, every
place they visit and every person they contact is now regarded as
potential court evidence.


BillK


From pharos at gmail.com  Fri Jul  6 07:25:58 2012
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2012 08:25:58 +0100
Subject: [ExI] higgs boson: was RE: Naked Mole Rat.
In-Reply-To: <4FF60CF7.9080402@aleph.se>
References: <013901cd5ae7$9da67710$d8f36530$@att.net>
 <4FF60CF7.9080402@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <CAL_armi1N2PGJGkDe7BysFY9VJSKjnVgywJwvF7-cAyemtsn5g@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jul 5, 2012 at 10:53 PM, Anders Sandberg <anders at aleph.se> wrote:
> We are too cool to fall for the Higgsmania.
>
> Besides, it just confirmed the Standard Model we already believed in. It
> would have been far more fun (but bad for funding) if it had been proven not
> to exist.
>

Very good review of where the Higgs fits in to the scheme of things.
<http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2012/07/05/explaining-the-higgs-on-tv-last-night/>

And he promises an article soon on the still unanswered questions.


BillK


From anders at aleph.se  Fri Jul  6 12:16:27 2012
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2012 13:16:27 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Gov surveillance here to stay
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armha5wrNysbR+5tBTEiOvtRi+M-6RyMiXEFfxmSQV5eUSA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armha5wrNysbR+5tBTEiOvtRi+M-6RyMiXEFfxmSQV5eUSA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FF6D71B.30401@aleph.se>

On 06/07/2012 09:06, BillK wrote:
> Why do you think your lovely smartphone includes unique ID, GPS,
> camera and microphone?

Because the consumers really want it. The fatal mistake of thinking it 
is because "They" put it there misses the far more unsettling aspect 
that *we* are voting with our wallets to produce a transparent, 
trackable world with smart gadgets.

Some of that is an accidental side effect (consider EFFs interesting 
demonstraiton that our browser customisation makes us identifiable: 
https://panopticlick.eff.org/ ) - many of these side effects suprise the 
Powers That Be too (consider all leaks due to improper redaction of 
PDFs). But I think what most people honestly do want is a world that has 
"magical properties" of transparency and services for them that also 
produce transparency for others - and they are not willing to pay much 
money or effort to reduce this information leakage.

If it was just They who did things, we could in principle stop Them. But 
now it is *us* who are doing it, and we are unlikely to stop ourselves.


> The future is here already. You must assume that every use of your
> phone, or internet access is recorded and scanned for possible threats
> to the state.
> If you are not plotting, then it will be no immediate inconvenience to you.

At least that is the common assumption. Given the growing number of more 
or less embarassing mistakes, there is a realy issue of false positives. 
Plotters are rare: people looking like plotters are far more common.

> Supercomputers and unlimited data storage enables the state to treat
> everyone as a potential criminal, so everything they do or say, every
> place they visit and every person they contact is now regarded as
> potential court evidence.

The really interesting thing is when this ability percolates downwards. 
Right now companies like Acxiom and Facebook are using similar methods. 
In a few years it will be feasible for smaller groups and individuals to 
do big data mining too.

I suspect the best strategy is to get people aware that we are careening 
into the transparent society, that we better get ultra-tolerant, and 
that we better get strong accountability measures into place to keep 
governments and other concentrations of power safe and sane.

-- 
Anders Sandberg,
Future of Humanity Institute
Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University



From pizerdavid at yahoo.com  Fri Jul  6 16:35:58 2012
From: pizerdavid at yahoo.com (david pizer)
Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2012 09:35:58 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] cryonics info
Message-ID: <1341592558.72990.YahooMailNeo@web161701.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

?
The latest issue (June=July) of Venturist "News and Views" is now on our website.
?
Lots of new info with pictures.
?
Aschwin D. presents a very good review of Sebastian Seung's? "Connectome" which is a very popular book with cryonicists right now.
?
Mark P. has an interesting?review of "Why Atheism will Replace Religion"? (by Nigel Barber, Ph.D.)
?
There is a review of the recent Venturist Conference, our first in many years.? Even a picture of a wild racoon trying to break into the event.? (Proving that supporting cryonics can be dangerous :=)
?
Take a look at?? venturist.info??? and then let us have your comments.
?
David P.
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From anders at aleph.se  Fri Jul  6 18:22:47 2012
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2012 19:22:47 +0100
Subject: [ExI] cryonics info
In-Reply-To: <1341592558.72990.YahooMailNeo@web161701.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <1341592558.72990.YahooMailNeo@web161701.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4FF72CF7.6060309@aleph.se>

On 06/07/2012 17:35, david pizer wrote:
> Aschwin D. presents a very good review of Sebastian Seung's  
> "Connectome" which is a very popular book with cryonicists right now.

BTW, we heard him give a talk here recently. Here is a recording:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBpy29IPO8c

Q&A:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y25pVy0-Zo0

Might be a bit far from getting us out of the Dewars right now, but it 
is promising in many ways.

-- 
Anders Sandberg,
Future of Humanity Institute
Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University

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From spike66 at att.net  Sat Jul  7 19:00:40 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2012 12:00:40 -0700
Subject: [ExI] fighting blammisphy on the internet
Message-ID: <001b01cd5c72$cdcddbe0$696993a0$@att.net>

Names have been changed to protect the guilty.  This just gets funnier as
you go down.

 

Posted on
<http://markrathbun.wordpress.com/2012/07/05/scientology-inc-wants-to-censor
-cruiseholmes-break-up-news/> July 5, 2012 by
<http://markrathbun.wordpress.com/author/martyrathbun09/>
ma..rtyra..th..bun09 |
<http://markrathbun.wordpress.com/2012/07/05/scientology-inc-wants-to-censor
-cruiseholmes-break-up-news/#comments> 172 Comments 

Good Luck.  It is sort of like showing up to a nuclear war with a squirt
gun.

The following is a write up posted by an Office of Special Affairs (dirty
tricks and propaganda arm of [Presbyterians] Inc.) operative on how to
counter free speech on the internet.  It is posted currently with specific
reference to those commenting on the break up of Tom Cruise and Katies
Holmes and [Nazarenes] Inc's role in the affair.   The recipient Ray McKay
is a well-known [Southern Baptist] operative.  "Razzline members" refers to
members of a corporate [United Methodist] on line collective.    When will
David Mis..ca..vig.e (supreme leader of corporate [Episcopalian] and Tom
Cruise's best man) ever learn that attempts to suppress communication and
expression only make more news than the news he attempts to censor?

From: Daniele Lattanzi [mailto:dlmc0809 at live.com]
Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2012 1:53 AM
To: Ray McKay
Subject: RE: Simple hatting on how to fight back on the internet
and Stand Up For Your Religion

Dear Razz Line members,

I am not a big fan of media, but you may have glanced the news of
the split between TC and Holmes and all the speculations around.
While this is a personal matter, when people start to bring our
religion into the middle and a bunch of uninformed people start to
spread false datum, rumors and defame our religion it became a
matter that does affect my Dynamics and I believe that affects
yours as well.

Well, I am not somebody that I am going to simply stand and watch a
bunch of uninformed people putting my religion under the carpet. So
here is a simple hatting on how you can causative fight back and at
the same time stand up and defend our religion on the internet.

Microsoft or Google or any of these big online company require that
each person when create an account with them follow a Code of
Conduct when they are on the internet. If there are abuse of such
Code of Conduct, those website do actually invite you to report the
matter to the Moderator - in other word, write the matter to
Ethics.

These is where things can be turn around!

Here is a simple example on how to fight back abuse of the Code of
Conduct that is happening within the Microsoft (MSN) website:

1. One of the Code of Conduct that Microsoft impose is to not
"threatens, defames, degrades. an individual or group of
individuals for any reason; including on the basis of age, gender,
disability, ethnicity, sexual orientation, race, religion; or
incites or encourages anyone else to do so.."

So is you go to MSN Now - What's Trending? you will see different
articles about TC and Holmes split. The articles then ask for
comment.. (Note: if the article does not show up anymore on the
first page, go to the search bar and type 'Tom Cruise Divorce'.
or a similar search. You want to go where the comment section is)

On each comment if you place your mouse over it,it show up on the
bottom right a tag that say 'REPORT'.

2. Click the "Report" Tag and a small window show up. Click the tab
"Send Note to Moderator"

3. Once you do that a new window show up and you can send a text of
100 character. You can write something like 'Violate Your Code of
Conduct'. "defames or degrades a group for any reason including on
the basis of religion."

The above exact comment it fit.

4. Read the comment from people and pick the ones that fit the
violation of the Code of Conduct.

5. Report the Violation!! That's it!! You are done.

6. Now rinse and repeat the same process from step 2 to 5..

Once you got the hang of it it get pretty fast and in one hour you
can report of lots of these nonsense comment!

If is only one person (me) reporting these issues, the Moderator at
Microsoft will not take the comment off. if you start to have 10 or
20 people reporting it, they are going to take this down.

LRH give an exact quote on the Price of Freedom that you find on
Tape 1 - Transcript page 32 - The Genus of Dian..etics and
[Religionology] - ANATOMY OF THE HUMAN MIND CONGRESS. The same quote
appear also in the Tech Dictionary under the Price of Freedom.

Ok - there you have it!! This simple hatting is something that you
can use now for this or similar situations that may happen in the
future.

Over to you!
Best
Daniel

 

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From msd001 at gmail.com  Sat Jul  7 19:40:03 2012
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2012 15:40:03 -0400
Subject: [ExI] fighting blammisphy on the internet
In-Reply-To: <001b01cd5c72$cdcddbe0$696993a0$@att.net>
References: <001b01cd5c72$cdcddbe0$696993a0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAOJFdbLeXqhkBBvi9mXXcGe=uyASe_p-eNC8bRUz91KXEVSjVg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Jul 7, 2012 at 3:00 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> Names have been changed to protect the guilty.  This just gets funnier as
> you go down.

Reminds me of a Simpson's episode where Marge is in the hospital...

Nurse: ?You?re here to rest. If you want the window cleaned, just push
the call button.?
Marge: ?Oh, I don?t want to be a bother.?
Nurse: ?Wouldn?t bother us. It just turns up your morphine."

... so let'em "moderate" the internet by "flagging" posts.



From spike66 at att.net  Sat Jul  7 23:01:56 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2012 16:01:56 -0700
Subject: [ExI] electronic voting again
Message-ID: <009401cd5c94$828853a0$8798fae0$@att.net>

So here we are, coming up for the fifith major US election just since I have
been hanging out on extropians, or ninth if you count congressional
midterms.  Every other year we get to discussing end-to-end auditable voting
systems, and every time it never happens.  You would think in all that time
of having the technology and an identified problem that we would have
somehow solved it by now, but we are no closer to having that system now
than we were 16 yrs ago.  This time we are coming up on an election with
enormous long term consequences, and ever greater risk of a disputed
election.  Yet somehow we just can't seem to get any traction on a problem
that can be solved with fairly straightforward technology.

 

Sigh.

 

spike

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From msd001 at gmail.com  Sun Jul  8 00:19:13 2012
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2012 20:19:13 -0400
Subject: [ExI] electronic voting again
In-Reply-To: <009401cd5c94$828853a0$8798fae0$@att.net>
References: <009401cd5c94$828853a0$8798fae0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAOJFdb+H5e4O5TyYbKXxDsiXikRY+LvfX=-X-4UU7vQf8beKcA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Jul 7, 2012 at 7:01 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> So here we are, coming up for the fifith major US election just since I have
> been hanging out on extropians, or ninth if you count congressional
> midterms.  Every other year we get to discussing end-to-end auditable voting
> systems, and every time it never happens.  You would think in all that time
> of having the technology and an identified problem that we would have
> somehow solved it by now, but we are no closer to having that system now
> than we were 16 yrs ago.  This time we are coming up on an election with
> enormous long term consequences, and ever greater risk of a disputed
> election.  Yet somehow we just can?t seem to get any traction on a problem
> that can be solved with fairly straightforward technology.

The problem you have identified can be solved with technology.  I
think the question is whether or not this is a problem that anyone
with the power to solve actually wants to do so.  I'm pretty sure
clowns can drive larger cars too but it's not in the nature of clowns.



From clementlawyer at gmail.com  Sun Jul  8 01:48:47 2012
From: clementlawyer at gmail.com (James Clement)
Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2012 21:48:47 -0400
Subject: [ExI] electronic voting again
In-Reply-To: <009401cd5c94$828853a0$8798fae0$@att.net>
References: <009401cd5c94$828853a0$8798fae0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CA+LBAbTbQ+GeDfm2WXNhwj9q+F_hBHk1i1XcaH2+Mhuknj858w@mail.gmail.com>

On Jul 7, 2012 7:18 PM, "spike" <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>
> So here we are, coming up for the fifith major US election just since I
have been hanging out on extropians, or ninth if you count congressional
midterms.  Every other year we get to discussing end-to-end auditable
voting systems, and every time it never happens.  You would think in all
that time of having the technology and an identified problem that we would
have somehow solved it by now, but we are no closer to having that system
now than we were 16 yrs ago.  This time we are coming up on an election
with enormous long term consequences, and ever greater risk of a disputed
election.  Yet somehow we just can?t seem to get any traction on a problem
that can be solved with fairly straightforward technology.
>
>

Spike,

Incumbents and political party hacks
run the elections, and they have absolutely no incentive to let the people
decide anything.  Citizens and the MSM would prefer to look down our noses
at election fraud in Russia and elsewhere than admit it's the SOP in "the
Land of the Free."

Building a nanotech army,

James
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From spike66 at att.net  Sun Jul  8 06:06:49 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2012 23:06:49 -0700
Subject: [ExI] electronic voting again
In-Reply-To: <CA+LBAbTbQ+GeDfm2WXNhwj9q+F_hBHk1i1XcaH2+Mhuknj858w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <009401cd5c94$828853a0$8798fae0$@att.net>
 <CA+LBAbTbQ+GeDfm2WXNhwj9q+F_hBHk1i1XcaH2+Mhuknj858w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00d201cd5ccf$ddb05940$99110bc0$@att.net>

 

>. On Behalf Of James Clement
Subject: Re: [ExI] electronic voting again


On Jul 7, 2012 7:18 PM, "spike" <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>
>>. So here we are, coming up for the fifith major US election.but we are no
closer to having that system now than we were 16 yrs ago.  Yet somehow we
just can't seem to get any traction on a problem that can be solved with
fairly straightforward technology.
>
>  

>.Spike,  Incumbents and political party hacks run the elections, and they
have absolutely no incentive to let the people decide anything.James

 

Ja, we had similar comments before, but the way I am going with this is not
the motive, but rather by noting the danger of civil unrest if we have
another super close election, as this one is shaping up to be.  In 2000 it
came down to a single state (Florida) and it was one of those oddball cases
where one feller won the popular vote but the other feller won Florida by a
whisker and took the electoral vote.  I don't recall either of their names,
but it didn't matter much.  This time, that decider state could be Florida
again, or it could be Ohio or Virginia, but the point is, if we have a
disputed election, this time it has far greater consequences than it did in
2000.  In that one, no one really cared much, because the candidates were
practically identical on everything.  

This time it really is different.  There is a lot riding on this election,
and if there is suspicious activity and a disputed outcome, we face real
trouble.  The hell of it is, we are doing this to ourselves intentionally.
I don't understand that.

spike

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From pharos at gmail.com  Sun Jul  8 07:41:32 2012
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2012 08:41:32 +0100
Subject: [ExI] electronic voting again
In-Reply-To: <00d201cd5ccf$ddb05940$99110bc0$@att.net>
References: <009401cd5c94$828853a0$8798fae0$@att.net>
 <CA+LBAbTbQ+GeDfm2WXNhwj9q+F_hBHk1i1XcaH2+Mhuknj858w@mail.gmail.com>
 <00d201cd5ccf$ddb05940$99110bc0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAL_armhLpTyPrTTTeEh8QLjVj1TgBhUSh-ug9CCuMa=va-r6=Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jul 8, 2012 at 7:06 AM, spike  wrote:
> the point is, if we have a
> disputed election, this time it has far greater consequences than it did in
> 2000.  In that one, no one really cared much, because the candidates were
> practically identical on everything.
>
> This time it really is different.  There is a lot riding on this election,
> and if there is suspicious activity and a disputed outcome, we face real
> trouble.  The hell of it is, we are doing this to ourselves intentionally.
> I don?t understand that.
>
>

I don't understand, Spike. From an outsider's POV neither Romney or
Obama will do anything to solve America's problems. So it doesn't
matter who wins. Things will just continue getting worse in slightly
different ways.

The longer it carries on the greater the risk of civil disruption. But
I don't see any signs of an alternative appearing.


BillK



From eugen at leitl.org  Sun Jul  8 08:14:29 2012
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2012 10:14:29 +0200
Subject: [ExI] electronic voting again
In-Reply-To: <009401cd5c94$828853a0$8798fae0$@att.net>
References: <009401cd5c94$828853a0$8798fae0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <20120708081428.GD12615@leitl.org>

On Sat, Jul 07, 2012 at 04:01:56PM -0700, spike wrote:

> election.  Yet somehow we just can't seem to get any traction on a problem
> that can be solved with fairly straightforward technology.

Yeah. Technology no more complicated than paper ballots, pencil, and
urns. 


From atymes at gmail.com  Sun Jul  8 07:36:45 2012
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2012 00:36:45 -0700
Subject: [ExI] electronic voting again
In-Reply-To: <00d201cd5ccf$ddb05940$99110bc0$@att.net>
References: <009401cd5c94$828853a0$8798fae0$@att.net>
 <CA+LBAbTbQ+GeDfm2WXNhwj9q+F_hBHk1i1XcaH2+Mhuknj858w@mail.gmail.com>
 <00d201cd5ccf$ddb05940$99110bc0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNTd=fQ4TbYtyDrEvCPvqXR1mmk36+aQT_HocLL9WAKJYg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Jul 7, 2012 at 11:06 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> This time it really is different.  There is a lot riding on this election,
> and if there is suspicious activity and a disputed outcome, we face real
> trouble.  The hell of it is, we are doing this to ourselves intentionally.
> I don?t understand that.

Those with the power to do something about it, do not believe that we
do face real trouble from their shenanigans.  Either their person will
win or lose; they don't think massive civil unrest will result no matter
what happens - and they point to the lack of a major US civil war in
2000 as evidence.

I suspect they are right.  Even if there is evidence of massive vote
fraud that gives either Romney or Obama the win despite a substantial
majority of votes going to the other guy, the worst that is likely to
happen is the same sporadic civil disobedience that has happened
since Obama took office - possibly a little more intense, but barely
something that even registers on their radars.

Now, if we had a president who had actually done a lot more of what
Obama promised back in 2004, and he lost out on a second term in
a way that convinced most people it was due to this kind of fraud,
then we might have a problem.



From spike66 at att.net  Sun Jul  8 15:06:26 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2012 08:06:26 -0700
Subject: [ExI] electronic voting again
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNTd=fQ4TbYtyDrEvCPvqXR1mmk36+aQT_HocLL9WAKJYg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <009401cd5c94$828853a0$8798fae0$@att.net>
 <CA+LBAbTbQ+GeDfm2WXNhwj9q+F_hBHk1i1XcaH2+Mhuknj858w@mail.gmail.com>
 <00d201cd5ccf$ddb05940$99110bc0$@att.net>
 <CALAdGNTd=fQ4TbYtyDrEvCPvqXR1mmk36+aQT_HocLL9WAKJYg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00fa01cd5d1b$3fe70fa0$bfb52ee0$@att.net>


>... On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes
Subject: Re: [ExI] electronic voting again

On Sat, Jul 7, 2012 at 11:06 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>>... This time it really is different.  There is a lot riding on this 
> election, and if there is suspicious activity and a disputed outcome, 
> we face real trouble.  The hell of it is, we are doing this to ourselves
intentionally.
> I don't understand that.

>...Those with the power to do something about it, do not believe that we do
face real trouble from their shenanigans...
Now, if we had a president who had actually done a lot more of what Obama
promised back in 2004, and he lost out on a second term in a way that
convinced most people it was due to this kind of fraud, then we might have a
problem.

_______________________________________________

Ja, who would have guessed that one?  Obama turned out to be nearly
identical to Bush43.  The only real change I can see is that medical
insurance companies have been struck down.  They will be required to sell
insurance to anyone regardless of health, and yet the small tax incentive
for healthy people to buy insurance is vastly insufficient to bring in large
numbers of new healthy customers into the insurance office.  Result: health
insurance companies must fail.

>... worst that is likely to happen is the same sporadic civil disobedience
that has happened since Obama took office...

The Occupy movement?  That was the only example I saw of civil disobedience,
and that never amounted to much of anything.  Once the weather warmed up, I
expected it to really get rolling, but instead it fizzled to nothing as far
as I know.

Perhaps my premise is wrong: there really isn't much riding on this
election.

spike





From bbenzai at yahoo.com  Sun Jul  8 16:16:56 2012
From: bbenzai at yahoo.com (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2012 09:16:56 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] fighting blammisphy on the internet
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1341748801.21078.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <1341764216.84459.YahooMailClassic@web114412.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

"spike" <spike66 at att.net>
> 
> Names have been changed to protect the guilty.? This
> just gets funnier as
> you go down.
> 
>  
> 
> Posted on
> <http://markrathbun.wordpress.com/2012/07/05/scientology-inc-wants-to-censor
> -cruiseholmes-break-up-news/> July 5, 2012 by
> <http://markrathbun.wordpress.com/author/martyrathbun09/>
> ma..rtyra..th..bun09 |

> The recipient Ray McKay
> is a well-known [Southern Baptist] operative.?
> "Razzline members" refers to
> members of a corporate [United Methodist] on line
> collective.? ? When will
> David Mis..ca..vig.e (supreme leader of corporate
> [Episcopalian] and Tom
> Cruise's best man) ever learn that attempts to suppress
> communication and
> expression only make more news than the news he attempts to
> censor?
> 
> From: Daniele Lattanzi [mailto:dlmc0809 at live.com]
...
> While this is a personal matter, when people start to bring
> our
> religion into the middle ...


Sorry if I'm being a bit thick, but what religion is being referred to here?

I thought this was about scientology, not religion?

Or have I missed something?

Ben Zaiboc <confused>



From pharos at gmail.com  Sun Jul  8 16:37:53 2012
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2012 17:37:53 +0100
Subject: [ExI] fighting blammisphy on the internet
In-Reply-To: <1341764216.84459.YahooMailClassic@web114412.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.1.1341748801.21078.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <1341764216.84459.YahooMailClassic@web114412.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armhQe7=DkGSzyH0RiNNetLQAfND5ys62HRBP_Xks=gt5yQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jul 8, 2012 at 5:16 PM, Ben Zaiboc wrote:
> Sorry if I'm being a bit thick, but what religion is being referred to here?
>
> I thought this was about scientology, not religion?
> Or have I missed something?
>
>

If you want your tax deductibles, you have to believe $sci-ology is a religion.


BillK


From spike66 at att.net  Sun Jul  8 17:03:18 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2012 10:03:18 -0700
Subject: [ExI] fighting blammisphy on the internet
In-Reply-To: <1341764216.84459.YahooMailClassic@web114412.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.1.1341748801.21078.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <1341764216.84459.YahooMailClassic@web114412.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <011601cd5d2b$93127650$b93762f0$@att.net>



>...Sorry if I'm being a bit thick, but what religion is being referred to
here?

>...I thought this was about sc..iento..lo.gy, not religion?

>...Or have I missed something?  Ben Zaiboc <confused>


Taking the name of Co$ in vain is blammisphy Ben.  Penalties include prison
time, as has been demonstrated by one of our own.  Solution: randomly
substitute the name with religion not protected under blammisphy laws.

spike  




From atymes at gmail.com  Sun Jul  8 17:32:15 2012
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2012 10:32:15 -0700
Subject: [ExI] fighting blammisphy on the internet
In-Reply-To: <1341764216.84459.YahooMailClassic@web114412.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.1.1341748801.21078.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <1341764216.84459.YahooMailClassic@web114412.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNTn-y00NJTXHAfzjLQ9hTSw_RsNkqLwPYKAr+X8SJNJGA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jul 8, 2012 at 9:16 AM, Ben Zaiboc <bbenzai at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Sorry if I'm being a bit thick, but what religion is being referred to here?
>
> I thought this was about...not religion?

"Cult" is a subtype of "religion".  Especially cults that call
themselves churches.


From kellycoinguy at gmail.com  Sun Jul  8 18:37:08 2012
From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2012 12:37:08 -0600
Subject: [ExI] electronic voting again
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armhLpTyPrTTTeEh8QLjVj1TgBhUSh-ug9CCuMa=va-r6=Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <009401cd5c94$828853a0$8798fae0$@att.net>
 <CA+LBAbTbQ+GeDfm2WXNhwj9q+F_hBHk1i1XcaH2+Mhuknj858w@mail.gmail.com>
 <00d201cd5ccf$ddb05940$99110bc0$@att.net>
 <CAL_armhLpTyPrTTTeEh8QLjVj1TgBhUSh-ug9CCuMa=va-r6=Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPy8RwbZmv5eVtVXHhbQFH_4mkQdqyKTcNTjNuzDxQjLBczPQg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jul 8, 2012 at 1:41 AM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, Jul 8, 2012 at 7:06 AM, spike  wrote:

> I don't understand, Spike. From an outsider's POV neither Romney or
> Obama will do anything to solve America's problems. So it doesn't
> matter who wins. Things will just continue getting worse in slightly
> different ways.

I see it as slightly different... I see it as Obama making things
worse at a break neck pace, and Romney making things worse somewhat
more slowly... I'd rather go to hell slowly than rapidly, but hey,
that's just me.

> The longer it carries on the greater the risk of civil disruption. But
> I don't see any signs of an alternative appearing.

We have had alternatives, like Ron Paul, but the establishment
undercuts guys like that before they have a chance to even get their
ideas understood by the masses.

-Kelly


From anders at aleph.se  Sun Jul  8 21:18:37 2012
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2012 22:18:37 +0100
Subject: [ExI] electronic voting again
In-Reply-To: <00fa01cd5d1b$3fe70fa0$bfb52ee0$@att.net>
References: <009401cd5c94$828853a0$8798fae0$@att.net>
 <CA+LBAbTbQ+GeDfm2WXNhwj9q+F_hBHk1i1XcaH2+Mhuknj858w@mail.gmail.com>
 <00d201cd5ccf$ddb05940$99110bc0$@att.net>
 <CALAdGNTd=fQ4TbYtyDrEvCPvqXR1mmk36+aQT_HocLL9WAKJYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <00fa01cd5d1b$3fe70fa0$bfb52ee0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <4FF9F92D.6040204@aleph.se>

On 08/07/2012 16:06, spike wrote:
> Perhaps my premise is wrong: there really isn't much riding on this 
> election.

I think there is some truth to this. While we tend to think that the 
pomp and circumstance of our democracies are what matters, the real 
issues are seldom up for votes or political decisions: open societies, 
economic structure, dominant values. They change based on far broader 
trends - both a good and a bad thing, since they are hard to manipulate.

My guess is that what is really bringing the US down is a sclerotic 
institutional structure. US voting has the pathological properties it 
has not because of tech but because of the voting structure doesn't 
scale well - the system was set up based on assumptions that do not hold 
any more. Various checks and balances and feedback mechanisms seem to be 
if not out of kilter then in need of a big overhaul, but besides the 
high costs of doing so any constitutional tinkering is also problematic 
because the US is highly dependent on its constitution and its mythology 
for its functioning.

-- 
Anders Sandberg,
Future of Humanity Institute
Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University



From spike66 at att.net  Sun Jul  8 22:00:07 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2012 15:00:07 -0700
Subject: [ExI] electronic voting again
In-Reply-To: <4FF9F92D.6040204@aleph.se>
References: <009401cd5c94$828853a0$8798fae0$@att.net>
 <CA+LBAbTbQ+GeDfm2WXNhwj9q+F_hBHk1i1XcaH2+Mhuknj858w@mail.gmail.com>
 <00d201cd5ccf$ddb05940$99110bc0$@att.net>
 <CALAdGNTd=fQ4TbYtyDrEvCPvqXR1mmk36+aQT_HocLL9WAKJYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <00fa01cd5d1b$3fe70fa0$bfb52ee0$@att.net> <4FF9F92D.6040204@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <000901cd5d55$09ccc330$1d664990$@att.net>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Anders Sandberg

>...problematic because the US is highly dependent on its constitution and
its mythology for its functioning.  --  Anders Sandberg...


Ja, Anders, and here is a fun exercise for you, next time you are in the
states.  Ask any number of proles two questions: 1) Does your constitution
guarantee a non-felon adult citizen the right to vote, and 2) Does your
constitution guarantee you the right to keep your vote private?

Surprising answer to these questions: 1) yes and 2) no.  We have the right
to vote but not necessarily the right to a secret ballot in the
constitution.  I would argue that it is now possible with current technology
to have both verifiability and privacy, but for the sake of argument will
agree that under some circumstances, privacy does come at the expense of
privacy.  We as a society have given away a constitutionally guaranteed
right in exchange for a right that is not constitutionally guaranteed.

We seem to be making no effort to rectify that situation, and I fear we do
so at our peril.

spike





From gts_2000 at yahoo.com  Mon Jul  9 10:53:41 2012
From: gts_2000 at yahoo.com (Gordon)
Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2012 03:53:41 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Prediction markets
Message-ID: <1341831221.36320.YahooMailNeo@web162403.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

I remember a conversation I had on this discussion list about ten years ago with Robin Hanson about the future of prediction markets. Robin is perhaps the father of prediction markets.?(Robin, are you still active here on ExI?)

In any event, I have decided I want to participate in these markets. I'm looking at depositing money at intrade.com. Would this be prudent? Is intrade reputable??I tried to deposit money there last night, only to learn that intrade cannot accept credit or debit cards issued by US banks. I would need to send a paper check or do a bank wire. That makes me a little nervous.?

I've heard of other prediction markets like the Iowa Electronic Markets. I don't know which is best. Does anyone here have any experience/knowledge on this subject? Thanks in advance.

-gts (Gordon)
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From sparge at gmail.com  Mon Jul  9 13:34:12 2012
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2012 09:34:12 -0400
Subject: [ExI] nintendo ds for grownups
In-Reply-To: <016601cd4ea3$fa344de0$ee9ce9a0$@att.net>
References: <005c01cd4e4b$baa1c4d0$2fe54e70$@att.net>
 <CAL_armj38hY_yUhwBtLPmjpAEENf1Ccdae=98ifbP2OyvqAYgQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNSz9gxpn3YsAHjvd4BF1sxixDKGBBH52qcFsVRbP_Ujkg@mail.gmail.com>
 <016601cd4ea3$fa344de0$ee9ce9a0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2f=2XY1SXy0M=RiFOR6jnuzmsr2YGRxPppjpw0msBgA=Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 1:17 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

> I have thought so hard on how to carry a iPad or equivalent, and nothing
> works for me.  I don't want to carry a backpack or a fanny pack, I don't
> want to hang it around my neck.  A DS is just the size it could be carried
> as naturally as a cell phone, in a pocket.  It would compromise on screen
> size, but I think it would work.
>
> If we use the DS hardware, I know there are many game cartridges which can
> be carried, so it stands to reason those could be programmed with a
> spreadsheet and a word processor, as well as a voice-to-text, which might
> be
> better than trying to include a keyboard.
>

Maybe too late to help, but I'm just catching up on my email backlog.

Consider the Dell Streak, an Android (Froyo) minitablet/phone that's now
discontinued and available for cheap. It's 6.0" x 3.1" x 0.4" vs the DS's
5.9" x 3.3" x 1.1". It's got an 800 ? 480 display an a 1 GHz Snapdragon
CPU. And it would double as a phone/camera/satnav/etc.

-Dave
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From spike66 at att.net  Mon Jul  9 14:13:05 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2012 07:13:05 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Prediction markets
In-Reply-To: <1341831221.36320.YahooMailNeo@web162403.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <1341831221.36320.YahooMailNeo@web162403.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <006e01cd5ddc$f5e953f0$e1bbfbd0$@att.net>

 

 

From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Gordon
.

 

 

Hi Gordon, we missed you man!

 

>. I remember a conversation I had on this discussion list about ten years
ago with Robin Hanson about the future of prediction markets. Robin is
perhaps the father of prediction markets. (Robin, are you still active here
on ExI?)

 

We haven't seen a post by Robin in several years.  I just checked; he is not
subscribed.

 

>.I'm looking at depositing money at intrade.com. -gts (Gordon)

 

I have followed InTrade for a long time, haven't played it.  Advise going in
with small amounts until you get the hang of it.  I think InTrade is OK.
The forum doesn't have complaints against the company.  Both InTrade and
Iowa Futures tend to be most active around political events: that's where
the high volume trading takes place.  

 

>. I've heard of other prediction markets like the Iowa Electronic Markets.
I don't know which is best.

 

Try them both, report back, me lad.  You will be doing a good deed for your
fans back here at ExI.

 

spike

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From spike66 at att.net  Mon Jul  9 14:20:22 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2012 07:20:22 -0700
Subject: [ExI] nintendo ds for grownups
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2f=2XY1SXy0M=RiFOR6jnuzmsr2YGRxPppjpw0msBgA=Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <005c01cd4e4b$baa1c4d0$2fe54e70$@att.net>
 <CAL_armj38hY_yUhwBtLPmjpAEENf1Ccdae=98ifbP2OyvqAYgQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNSz9gxpn3YsAHjvd4BF1sxixDKGBBH52qcFsVRbP_Ujkg@mail.gmail.com>
 <016601cd4ea3$fa344de0$ee9ce9a0$@att.net>
 <CAM5aL2f=2XY1SXy0M=RiFOR6jnuzmsr2YGRxPppjpw0msBgA=Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <007901cd5ddd$fa17ed00$ee47c700$@att.net>

 

 

From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Dave Sill


Subject: Re: [ExI] nintendo ds for grownups

 

On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 1:17 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

 

 

>>
  A DS is just the size it could be carried as naturally as a cell phone,
in a pocket


 

>
Consider the Dell Streak, an Android (Froyo) minitablet/phone that's now
discontinued and available for cheap. It's 6.0" x 3.1" x 0.4" vs the DS's
5.9" x 3.3" x 1.1". It's got an 800 ? 480 display an a 1 GHz Snapdragon CPU.
And it would double as a phone/camera/satnav/etc.  -Dave

 

 

Thanks Dave!  I will look at that.  So far, an iPhone is hard to beat.  It
isn?t great for spreadsheets, but I might need to deal with it anyway.  I am
looking for retinal displays that might work with an iPhone.  An iPad is
compelling enough that I am still looking for a good way to carry it in some
kind of small backpack arrangement.

 

spike

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From pharos at gmail.com  Mon Jul  9 15:14:16 2012
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2012 16:14:16 +0100
Subject: [ExI] nintendo ds for grownups
In-Reply-To: <007901cd5ddd$fa17ed00$ee47c700$@att.net>
References: <005c01cd4e4b$baa1c4d0$2fe54e70$@att.net>
 <CAL_armj38hY_yUhwBtLPmjpAEENf1Ccdae=98ifbP2OyvqAYgQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNSz9gxpn3YsAHjvd4BF1sxixDKGBBH52qcFsVRbP_Ujkg@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CAM5aL2f=2XY1SXy0M=RiFOR6jnuzmsr2YGRxPppjpw0msBgA=Q@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAL_armj2xDLDdFbH9HSzNcoEkjit1qOP_xehOHOJsFv=MgErsA@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jul 9, 2012 at 3:20 PM, spike wrote:
> Thanks Dave!  I will look at that.  So far, an iPhone is hard to beat.  It
> isn?t great for spreadsheets, but I might need to deal with it anyway.  I am
> looking for retinal displays that might work with an iPhone.  An iPad is
> compelling enough that I am still looking for a good way to carry it in some
> kind of small backpack arrangement.
>


There are persistent rumours about a 7" iPad coming in Oct 2012. Cost
200-250 USD.
<http://www.imore.com/7inch-ipad-mini-track-october-release-200-price-point>

Also, this review might be useful.
Why I Just Dumped the iPad (Hint: Size Matters) for a 7-inch Samsung
Galaxy Tab running Google Android.
<http://gigaom.com/mobile/why-i-just-dumped-the-ipad-hint-size-matters/>


BillK



From bbenzai at yahoo.com  Mon Jul  9 15:38:01 2012
From: bbenzai at yahoo.com (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2012 08:38:01 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] fighting blammisphy on the internet
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1341835201.15868.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <1341848281.76545.YahooMailClassic@web114417.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

Various people wrote:

> If you want your tax deductibles, you have to believe $sci-ology is a religion.
> 

> Taking the name of Co$ in vain is blammisphy Ben.  Penalties include prison
> time, as has been demonstrated by one of our own.  Solution: randomly
> substitute the name with religion not protected under blammisphy laws.
> 

> "Cult" is a subtype of "religion".  Especially cults that call
> themselves churches.

Ah, thanks.

I was just being thick.  I suppose the word 'religion' can be interpreted just about any way you like!

Ben Zaiboc




From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Mon Jul  9 15:47:25 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2012 17:47:25 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Gov surveillance here to stay
In-Reply-To: <4FF6D71B.30401@aleph.se>
References: <CAL_armha5wrNysbR+5tBTEiOvtRi+M-6RyMiXEFfxmSQV5eUSA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FF6D71B.30401@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a7j8zM2SnxiRWYpOVBEgWZtn__gNpMfyKAt9DEYB-PPhw@mail.gmail.com>

On 6 July 2012 14:16, Anders Sandberg <anders at aleph.se> wrote:

> Because the consumers really want it. The fatal mistake of thinking it is
> because "They" put it there misses the far more unsettling aspect that *we*
> are voting with our wallets to produce a transparent, trackable world with
> smart gadgets.
>

Yes, I agree with that.

Take for instance the monumental failure of IT programmes rumoured to have
been implemented in the nineties to extract intelligence from Internet and
TLC traffic and connections useful for people profiling. Heck, somebody
launched Facebook and in a New York minute everybody was actively
cooperating in their own profiling, with the additional joke of "privacy"
options being made available for those jealous of their data.

This is why an angle I am more interested in is the fact that They are
using exactly the same gadgets as everybody else, only most of the times in
a less proficient way. Hence, Wikileaks.

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From jrd1415 at gmail.com  Mon Jul  9 17:40:23 2012
From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis)
Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2012 10:40:23 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Gov surveillance here to stay
In-Reply-To: <CAPoR7a7j8zM2SnxiRWYpOVBEgWZtn__gNpMfyKAt9DEYB-PPhw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armha5wrNysbR+5tBTEiOvtRi+M-6RyMiXEFfxmSQV5eUSA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FF6D71B.30401@aleph.se>
 <CAPoR7a7j8zM2SnxiRWYpOVBEgWZtn__gNpMfyKAt9DEYB-PPhw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHUTwkMi84sZe_fg5H+VDjvrFDr87aU_Lm3_p4ZgjX49KjqC6g@mail.gmail.com>

Flame, Flamer, Skywiper.  These are names given to the 20mb
cyber-espionage trojan(?) crafted -- presumably by the US and Israel
-- to spy on Iran.  This cyber-weapon is described as so sophisticated
that its development required resources so substantial as to be
virtually the exclusive province of high tech nations.  This most
sophisticated cyber-espionage "tool kit" is now in the public domain,
available to every hacker, "extremist", and two-bit psychopath on the
planet. They couldn't have done it themselves, so the US national
security brain trust chose to help out: they developed it, gift
wrapped it, and delivered it free of charge to one and all.  Keeping
us safe from a ridiculous fairy tale of boogieman(not!) Iran.  Can
anyone make sense out of this beyond clueless arrogance?

On the bright side: a little tweak to make it once again invisible,
and every corrupt pol, defense contractor, corporate schemer, and
secretive lobbyist will have the details of their machinations and
larceny published on Wikileaks.

Interesting times indeed!  I don't know whether to dance and sing, or
curl up in a fetal position and whimper.

(Okay, I've decided: dance and sing and bookmark Wikileaks.  Let the
games begin.)

Best, Jeff Davis

"White people are clever, but they are not wise."
              Ishi, the last of the Yahi nation


From gts_2000 at yahoo.com  Mon Jul  9 23:05:32 2012
From: gts_2000 at yahoo.com (Gordon)
Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2012 16:05:32 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Prediction markets
In-Reply-To: <006e01cd5ddc$f5e953f0$e1bbfbd0$@att.net>
References: <1341831221.36320.YahooMailNeo@web162403.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <006e01cd5ddc$f5e953f0$e1bbfbd0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <1341875132.26644.YahooMailNeo@web162405.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

?>?Hi Gordon, we missed you man!

Thanks spike. I have exactly 23,141 unread messages in my ExI email folder. It might take me a little while to catch up.?

>?Try them both, report back, me lad.? You will be doing a good deed for your fans back here at ExI.

?
Perhaps I will try them both. I'll let you know what happens. :)

-gts
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From msd001 at gmail.com  Mon Jul  9 23:03:36 2012
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2012 19:03:36 -0400
Subject: [ExI] nintendo ds for grownups
In-Reply-To: <007901cd5ddd$fa17ed00$ee47c700$@att.net>
References: <005c01cd4e4b$baa1c4d0$2fe54e70$@att.net>
 <CAL_armj38hY_yUhwBtLPmjpAEENf1Ccdae=98ifbP2OyvqAYgQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNSz9gxpn3YsAHjvd4BF1sxixDKGBBH52qcFsVRbP_Ujkg@mail.gmail.com>
 <016601cd4ea3$fa344de0$ee9ce9a0$@att.net>
 <CAM5aL2f=2XY1SXy0M=RiFOR6jnuzmsr2YGRxPppjpw0msBgA=Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <007901cd5ddd$fa17ed00$ee47c700$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAOJFdb+LFj=YL2LSbWOEkhjW-LWFHpd6FpmX2xk1gtU79+-EJA@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jul 9, 2012 at 10:20 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> Thanks Dave!  I will look at that.  So far, an iPhone is hard to beat.  It
> isn?t great for spreadsheets, but I might need to deal with it anyway.  I am
> looking for retinal displays that might work with an iPhone.  An iPad is
> compelling enough that I am still looking for a good way to carry it in some
> kind of small backpack arrangement.

I just had a mental image of Spike wearing an iPad like a Tron-disc...



From atymes at gmail.com  Tue Jul 10 00:36:28 2012
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2012 17:36:28 -0700
Subject: [ExI] nintendo ds for grownups
In-Reply-To: <CAOJFdb+LFj=YL2LSbWOEkhjW-LWFHpd6FpmX2xk1gtU79+-EJA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <005c01cd4e4b$baa1c4d0$2fe54e70$@att.net>
 <CAL_armj38hY_yUhwBtLPmjpAEENf1Ccdae=98ifbP2OyvqAYgQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNSz9gxpn3YsAHjvd4BF1sxixDKGBBH52qcFsVRbP_Ujkg@mail.gmail.com>
 <016601cd4ea3$fa344de0$ee9ce9a0$@att.net>
 <CAM5aL2f=2XY1SXy0M=RiFOR6jnuzmsr2YGRxPppjpw0msBgA=Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <007901cd5ddd$fa17ed00$ee47c700$@att.net>
 <CAOJFdb+LFj=YL2LSbWOEkhjW-LWFHpd6FpmX2xk1gtU79+-EJA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNQYf_bgtZyzgzM9QK=9XQ_5bSTuDj7D37js-wM_FVLjpQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jul 9, 2012 at 4:03 PM, Mike Dougherty <msd001 at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 9, 2012 at 10:20 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>> Thanks Dave!  I will look at that.  So far, an iPhone is hard to beat.  It
>> isn?t great for spreadsheets, but I might need to deal with it anyway.  I am
>> looking for retinal displays that might work with an iPhone.  An iPad is
>> compelling enough that I am still looking for a good way to carry it in some
>> kind of small backpack arrangement.
>
> I just had a mental image of Spike wearing an iPad like a Tron-disc...

That's about what it would be like, if he had a robust way to secure it
without enclosing it.  Velcro probably would not work for the amount
of bending and general activity the back sees.  Most backpacks are
pouches, so it'd be more like a sheathe - though perhaps he could get
a transparent one.

(Personally, I wear an Android on my wrist and it works well enough.
Velcro does - mostly - work for that, though the supplier I got the
wrist mount from has moved on to an all-metal-and-plastic configuration
that reportedly works better.)



From dan_ust at yahoo.com  Tue Jul 10 12:11:58 2012
From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan Ust)
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2012 08:11:58 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Machine learning course @ Caltech
Message-ID: <F0C02796-4A5A-473C-9EDA-83B984A7EFC0@yahoo.com>

http://www.work.caltech.edu/telecourse.html

Regards,

Dan


From gts_2000 at yahoo.com  Tue Jul 10 12:41:48 2012
From: gts_2000 at yahoo.com (Gordon)
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2012 05:41:48 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] bees again
In-Reply-To: <004601cd53df$95d10b90$c17322b0$@att.net>
References: <004601cd53df$95d10b90$c17322b0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <1341924108.56961.YahooMailNeo@web162404.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

spike,

> Hey check this, watch these hummingbirds hassle each other....

?
http://www.youtube-nocookie.com/embed/xHkq1edcbk4?rel=0
?
> Is that astonishing photography or what?

Wonderful! I shared with other people who feel the same way. Thanks for posting it!

-gts?
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From spike66 at att.net  Tue Jul 10 14:46:38 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2012 07:46:38 -0700
Subject: [ExI] bees again
In-Reply-To: <1341924108.56961.YahooMailNeo@web162404.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <004601cd53df$95d10b90$c17322b0$@att.net>
 <1341924108.56961.YahooMailNeo@web162404.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <014301cd5eaa$cfd9ef70$6f8dce50$@att.net>

 

 

>. On Behalf Of Gordon
Subject: Re: [ExI] bees again

 

spike,

 

>> .Hey check this, watch these hummingbirds hassle each other....

 

 <http://www.youtube-nocookie.com/embed/xHkq1edcbk4?rel=0>
http://www.youtube-nocookie.com/embed/xHkq1edcbk4?rel=0

 


>.Wonderful! I shared with other people who feel the same way. Thanks for
posting it!  -gts 

 

 

Glad you liked it Gordon.  

 

On the subject of bees again, I am seeing a bunch of dying bees this summer.
I saw dying bees for the first time about five years ago, and every year
since then but at a lower level.  I didn't know for sure if they were always
there and I just hadn't noticed but in any case, I am seeing way more of
them this year.  I should have kept a log, but individual observations are
of little use: not enough data.  If we were to get a few thousand bee
watchers to keep a log, noting date, time and place of observation, perhaps
we could see some patterns.  

 

As I noted a few months ago, I observed something this year that led me to
believe the cause had to be some kind of pesticide: two bees staggering
about on the sidewalk about a meter apart, both too weak to fly, both dead
within an hour, neither with parasites that I could tell.  I had no
handkerchief or other means to carry them, so I picked them up in my hands
and carried them home, hoping for the best.  Neither stung, but it felt
weird.  I kept them in a jar for a few weeks to see if anything would hatch
out of them.  This season I have had five negative observations for
parasites, no positives.

 

I never have been able to figure out any alternate explanation for that
observation of the two dying together other than a pesticide on the roses.

 

The biggest challenge I can see in having a site for observations is in
getting the participants to record negative findings.  It is difficult to
distinguish between active observers seeing no bees and observers going
inactive.  Doctors have faced this challenge since forever: if patients
start feeling better, they just go away and don't report back until they are
sick the next time.  We need a better way of recording negative
observations.

 

spike 

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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Tue Jul 10 14:51:37 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2012 16:51:37 +0200
Subject: [ExI] electronic voting again
In-Reply-To: <4FF9F92D.6040204@aleph.se>
References: <009401cd5c94$828853a0$8798fae0$@att.net>
 <CA+LBAbTbQ+GeDfm2WXNhwj9q+F_hBHk1i1XcaH2+Mhuknj858w@mail.gmail.com>
 <00d201cd5ccf$ddb05940$99110bc0$@att.net>
 <CALAdGNTd=fQ4TbYtyDrEvCPvqXR1mmk36+aQT_HocLL9WAKJYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <00fa01cd5d1b$3fe70fa0$bfb52ee0$@att.net>
 <4FF9F92D.6040204@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a4ohqNrSACvfJtdjOrF81KPLYrbDdC=DQzn3s1B8+T_JQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 8 July 2012 23:18, Anders Sandberg <anders at aleph.se> wrote:

> I think there is some truth to this. While we tend to think that the pomp
> and circumstance of our democracies are what matters, the real issues are
> seldom up for votes or political decisions: open societies, economic
> structure, dominant values. They change based on far broader trends - both
> a good and a bad thing, since they are hard to manipulate.
>

The so-called "metapolitical" strategy can be summarised as follows: you
want really to change things? Work on mentalities and dominant values. If
you are successful, politics will follow, if anything at the level of
public discourse - but at a certain point, revolutions do happen if changes
remain purely cosmetic.

This has in turn much to do with my transhumanist "activism".

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From natasha at natasha.cc  Tue Jul 10 23:01:07 2012
From: natasha at natasha.cc (natasha at natasha.cc)
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2012 19:01:07 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Survey on Transhumanism
In-Reply-To: <CAPoR7a4ohqNrSACvfJtdjOrF81KPLYrbDdC=DQzn3s1B8+T_JQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <009401cd5c94$828853a0$8798fae0$@att.net>
 <CA+LBAbTbQ+GeDfm2WXNhwj9q+F_hBHk1i1XcaH2+Mhuknj858w@mail.gmail.com>
 <00d201cd5ccf$ddb05940$99110bc0$@att.net>
 <CALAdGNTd=fQ4TbYtyDrEvCPvqXR1mmk36+aQT_HocLL9WAKJYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <00fa01cd5d1b$3fe70fa0$bfb52ee0$@att.net> <4FF9F92D.6040204@aleph.se>
 <CAPoR7a4ohqNrSACvfJtdjOrF81KPLYrbDdC=DQzn3s1B8+T_JQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120710190107.hxnxlzfs6cck8s0o@webmail.natasha.cc>



   I was emailed this survey / questionnaire. Some of the questions  
are a bit black and white, and some are quite good.? I hope you all  
Extropes fill this thing out!"100 Transhumanists needed for survey -  
questionnaire funded by Terasem, fiscally sponsored by World Future  
Society. Results will be published in e-book; with your name if you  
wish."Go to the following link to fill out:  
https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/transhuman

   Best,

   Natasha

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From pharos at gmail.com  Wed Jul 11 10:26:04 2012
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 11:26:04 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Why is there Something rather than Nothing?
Message-ID: <CAL_armgEM9ukTvcX6EtTxKd5mwkbrgBw0o-Lyff79pSbg6fWXg@mail.gmail.com>

Michael Shermer discusses 12 possible answers to the question of why
there is something rather than nothing.

<http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/12-07-11/#feature>

Now, I find all these speculations about multiple universes, the
multiverse, bubble nucleation of spacetime, branes, etc. all very
interesting.

But, the mind-boggling bit that is worrying me........

Our galaxy is pretty big, with hundreds of billions of star systems.
But when you look out, all these faint points of light turn out to be
hundreds of billions of *galaxies*.
That's a lot of space out there.
And if you have multiple universes, it is all multiplied up again.

You need a big bag to hold all these universes in. Where does all that
*space* come from?
(And who's carrying the bag?).


BillK


From pharos at gmail.com  Wed Jul 11 10:53:04 2012
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 11:53:04 +0100
Subject: [ExI] nintendo ds for grownups
In-Reply-To: <007901cd5ddd$fa17ed00$ee47c700$@att.net>
References: <005c01cd4e4b$baa1c4d0$2fe54e70$@att.net>
 <CAL_armj38hY_yUhwBtLPmjpAEENf1Ccdae=98ifbP2OyvqAYgQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNSz9gxpn3YsAHjvd4BF1sxixDKGBBH52qcFsVRbP_Ujkg@mail.gmail.com>
 <016601cd4ea3$fa344de0$ee9ce9a0$@att.net>
 <CAM5aL2f=2XY1SXy0M=RiFOR6jnuzmsr2YGRxPppjpw0msBgA=Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <007901cd5ddd$fa17ed00$ee47c700$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAL_armgsaPjjxNqBW-uPT0rcARATyeCTa0Co5x=U1JhqQ3Ut3Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jul 9, 2012 at 3:20 PM, spike  wrote:
> An iPad is
> compelling enough that I am still looking for a good way to carry it in some
> kind of small backpack arrangement.
>
>


And then the new Google Nexus 7" tablet has just been announced.
(Made by Asus).  Most people seem to think it is pretty good.
Review here:
<http://www.anandtech.com/show/6054/google-nexus-7-mini-review>

BillK


From steinberg.will at gmail.com  Wed Jul 11 11:15:43 2012
From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg)
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 07:15:43 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Why is there Something rather than Nothing?
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armgEM9ukTvcX6EtTxKd5mwkbrgBw0o-Lyff79pSbg6fWXg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armgEM9ukTvcX6EtTxKd5mwkbrgBw0o-Lyff79pSbg6fWXg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKrqSyFahDY-b2xhXKf3+Ty9jzUJC27phn52V9WnmX7-H8z6Xg@mail.gmail.com>

Who's to say that's big?
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From mrjones2020 at gmail.com  Wed Jul 11 16:27:13 2012
From: mrjones2020 at gmail.com (J.R. Jones)
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 12:27:13 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Why is there Something rather than Nothing?
In-Reply-To: <CAKrqSyFahDY-b2xhXKf3+Ty9jzUJC27phn52V9WnmX7-H8z6Xg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armgEM9ukTvcX6EtTxKd5mwkbrgBw0o-Lyff79pSbg6fWXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyFahDY-b2xhXKf3+Ty9jzUJC27phn52V9WnmX7-H8z6Xg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CADDVf2LJGCYXjRhtWy7t=nHgFM-nLLr0RFDhHHoXeTg-rkAUaw@mail.gmail.com>

On Jul 11, 2012 8:12 AM, "Will Steinberg" <steinberg.will at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Who's to say that's big?

Great point. Relativity. Isn't it grand?

> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike66 at att.net  Wed Jul 11 19:43:56 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 12:43:56 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Why is there Something rather than Nothing?
In-Reply-To: <CADDVf2LJGCYXjRhtWy7t=nHgFM-nLLr0RFDhHHoXeTg-rkAUaw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armgEM9ukTvcX6EtTxKd5mwkbrgBw0o-Lyff79pSbg6fWXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyFahDY-b2xhXKf3+Ty9jzUJC27phn52V9WnmX7-H8z6Xg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADDVf2LJGCYXjRhtWy7t=nHgFM-nLLr0RFDhHHoXeTg-rkAUaw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <007d01cd5f9d$82db80a0$889281e0$@att.net>

 

 

>. On Behalf Of J.R. Jones
Subject: Re: [ExI] Why is there Something rather than Nothing?


On Jul 11, 2012 8:12 AM, "Will Steinberg" <steinberg.will at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>. Who's to say that's big?   

>.Great point. Relativity. Isn't it grand? 

We have no way of knowing if relativity is grand.  Compared to something
still grander, it isn't.

spike

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From listsb at infinitefaculty.org  Wed Jul 11 21:57:48 2012
From: listsb at infinitefaculty.org (Brian Manning Delaney)
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 23:57:48 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Alzheimer's vaccine trial a success
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armi0D5LFjfzeWVYQh8YU3mBSyinrvfA2pB80Wzt+wSFKXg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armi0D5LFjfzeWVYQh8YU3mBSyinrvfA2pB80Wzt+wSFKXg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FFDF6DC.1080908@infinitefaculty.org>

El 2012-06-08 08:16, BillK escribi?:
> [NEWS 6 June] A study led by Karolinska Institutet reports for the
> first time the positive effects of an active vaccine against
> Alzheimer's disease. The new vaccine, CAD106, can prove a breakthrough
> in the search for a cure for this seriously debilitating dementia
> disease. The study is published in the distinguished scientific
> journal Lancet Neurology.
> <http://ki.se/ki/jsp/polopoly.jsp?l=en&d=130&a=145109&newsdep=130>

Thanks for the very useful news, and thanks again to Spike, for efforts 
in getting the straight dope on bexarotene, all of which is now even 
more important to me personally, since yet another person I know was 
just diagnosed with (very early stage) Alzheimer's.

Did some digging on what else might be available to him that his docs 
don't know about. For those who might find this information useful, take 
a look at

- creatine, at least if the patient carries apoE ?4:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21118604
(Look at the full text, avail. for free -- which is actually mostly 
about the effects of creatine supplementation in people without 
Alzheimer's -- first couple pages, to see the snippet about Alzheimer's.)

and

- metformin, if the patient is diabetic (and maybe even if they're not):
http://www.cell.com/cell-stem-cell/fulltext/S1934-5909%2812%2900174-9

Both of these are mostly shots in the dark, since so little research has 
been done on them in connection with Alzheimer's, but they're likely not 
harmful. (B12 status has to be monitored with metformin.)

-Brian


From pharos at gmail.com  Wed Jul 11 22:41:27 2012
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 23:41:27 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Alzheimer's vaccine trial a success
In-Reply-To: <4FFDF6DC.1080908@infinitefaculty.org>
References: <CAL_armi0D5LFjfzeWVYQh8YU3mBSyinrvfA2pB80Wzt+wSFKXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FFDF6DC.1080908@infinitefaculty.org>
Message-ID: <CAL_armhNv-wBOgHv8fJQyDxtdSFvLifQtsOheocLVkTz46Ufqw@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jul 11, 2012 at 10:57 PM, Brian Manning Delaney  wrote:
> Both of these are mostly shots in the dark, since so little research has
> been done on them in connection with Alzheimer's, but they're likely not
> harmful. (B12 status has to be monitored with metformin.)
>
>


I think that it is significant that notice is taken that elderly
bodies work differently to youthful bodies.

i.e. things that don't matter when young become significant when old.
Supplements and diet need to change to take account of this.

Don't carefully work out a regime for age 30-40 and stick with it regardless.
Review regularly.

BillK


From spike66 at att.net  Wed Jul 11 23:05:59 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 16:05:59 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Alzheimer's vaccine trial a success
In-Reply-To: <4FFDF6DC.1080908@infinitefaculty.org>
References: <CAL_armi0D5LFjfzeWVYQh8YU3mBSyinrvfA2pB80Wzt+wSFKXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FFDF6DC.1080908@infinitefaculty.org>
Message-ID: <00da01cd5fb9$bca32790$35e976b0$@att.net>


>... On Behalf Of Brian Manning Delaney
Subject: Re: [ExI] Alzheimer's vaccine trial a success

El 2012-06-08 08:16, BillK escribi?:
>>... [NEWS 6 June] A study led by Karolinska Institutet reports for the 
> first time the positive effects of an active vaccine against 
> Alzheimer's disease. The new vaccine, CAD106, can prove a breakthrough 
> in the search for a cure for this seriously debilitating dementia 
> disease. The study is published in the distinguished scientific 
> journal Lancet Neurology.
> <http://ki.se/ki/jsp/polopoly.jsp?l=en&d=130&a=145109&newsdep=130>

>...Thanks for the very useful news, and thanks again to Spike, for efforts in getting the straight dope on bexarotene, all of which is now even more important to me personally, since yet another person I know was just diagnosed with (very early stage) Alzheimer's...  --Brian

I have been scanning for online reports of treatments of AD patients with bexarotene.  There have been sporadic reports of modest success, but not one that is convincing or even compelling.  Just as we speculated back in February when Dr. Landreth's report came out, there have been people experimenting with the stuff, but even I was shocked at the levels to which they took it.  I was pondering dosages and how to enhance the amount of the stuff that crosses the BB barrier.  If these informal reports have any credibility (they need to be anonymous for understandable legal reasons) there are people who are fearlessly using enormous doses of the stuff, way higher than what would be used in a typical melanoma patient.  

Bexarotene is a known thyroid suppressant.  Dr. Landreth's worst nightmare is apparently playing out: desperate families have bought bexarotene by the case from England and took a wild shot in the dark for how much to give grandma, with the assumption that what the hell, too little is just as fatal as too much.  But reliable reports of results are hard to come by.  One report that a patient was using twice the usual melanoma dose said they though the patient may have improved some.  But that was two months ago, and that person hasn't posted back.  They were deluged with inquiries but never answered any of them as far as I can tell, or if so, nothing ever came up in Google searches.

I have concluded sadly that bexarotene isn't the miracle we were all hoping for, however there are plenty of parallel lines of research which may bear fruit.

What I have learned is that we are quickly developing patient groups, where information is pooled on various diseases.  A person with an orphan disease can find the few hundred others all over the globe with a similar  condition, to share information, treatment ideas, results, and if nothing else, just good old fashioned human sympathy.  For patients to cry together online is better I suppose than to cry alone.  For many of these conditions we are just now reaching critical mass.  As you might expect, Alzheimer's has a massive online support group, which I urge you to use if applicable.

Never lose hope: this vaccine might be the way.  Good luck to us.

spike

 





From anders at aleph.se  Wed Jul 11 23:54:18 2012
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 09:54:18 +1000
Subject: [ExI] Why is there Something rather than Nothing?
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armgEM9ukTvcX6EtTxKd5mwkbrgBw0o-Lyff79pSbg6fWXg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armgEM9ukTvcX6EtTxKd5mwkbrgBw0o-Lyff79pSbg6fWXg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FFE122A.80206@aleph.se>

Isn't this question just auto-begging?


On 11/07/2012 20:26, BillK wrote:
> You need a big bag to hold all these universes in. Where does all that
> *space* come from?

 From a mathematical standpoint the bag is not terribly big, unless you 
go to Tegmark level 4 multiverses (in which case the concept of "bag" 
becomes extremely problematic: there are horrors out there like the Set 
of All Sets that are not baggable). A spatially infinite universe is 
just of cardinality aleph-1 if continous and aleph-0 if discrete. Add 
inflation and you still remain in that cardinality. With full quantum 
many worlds you go up one level, perhaps ending up with aleph-2. But 
there is an *infinite* hierarchy of alephs beyond...


-- 
Anders Sandberg,
Future of Humanity Institute
Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University



From msd001 at gmail.com  Thu Jul 12 03:16:53 2012
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 23:16:53 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Why is there Something rather than Nothing?
In-Reply-To: <4FFE122A.80206@aleph.se>
References: <CAL_armgEM9ukTvcX6EtTxKd5mwkbrgBw0o-Lyff79pSbg6fWXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FFE122A.80206@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <CAOJFdb+Gn6UZiu1LqXMfDpyNVtdThzD=rr2rGZcx+JBRMyhuYQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jul 11, 2012 at 7:54 PM, Anders Sandberg <anders at aleph.se> wrote:
> From a mathematical standpoint the bag is not terribly big, unless you go to
> Tegmark level 4 multiverses (in which case the concept of "bag" becomes
> extremely problematic: there are horrors out there like the Set of All Sets
> that are not baggable). A spatially infinite universe is just of cardinality
> aleph-1 if continous and aleph-0 if discrete. Add inflation and you still
> remain in that cardinality. With full quantum many worlds you go up one
> level, perhaps ending up with aleph-2. But there is an *infinite* hierarchy
> of alephs beyond...

in the context of alephs, is an infinite hierachy of alephs measured
in alephs or is *infinite* a qualitative measure rather than a
cardinality?


From anders at aleph.se  Thu Jul 12 04:22:18 2012
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 14:22:18 +1000
Subject: [ExI] Why is there Something rather than Nothing?
In-Reply-To: <CAOJFdb+Gn6UZiu1LqXMfDpyNVtdThzD=rr2rGZcx+JBRMyhuYQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armgEM9ukTvcX6EtTxKd5mwkbrgBw0o-Lyff79pSbg6fWXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FFE122A.80206@aleph.se>
 <CAOJFdb+Gn6UZiu1LqXMfDpyNVtdThzD=rr2rGZcx+JBRMyhuYQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FFE50FA.2020700@aleph.se>

On 12/07/2012 13:16, Mike Dougherty wrote:
>
> in the context of alephs, is an infinite hierachy of alephs measured
> in alephs or is *infinite* a qualitative measure rather than a
> cardinality?

No, it is ordinal.

Cardinals denote how many of something there is ("1 X, 2 Xs, 3 Xs, 
aleph_0 Xs...") while ordinals denote an ordering ("1, 2, 3, ... omega, 
omega+1, omega+2, ... , 2*omega, 2*omega+1, ... , omega^2, ... , 
omega^3, ... omega^omega, ... omega^omega^omega, ... , epsilon...). See 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordinal_number

-- 
Anders Sandberg,
Future of Humanity Institute
Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University



From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Thu Jul 12 04:34:35 2012
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 21:34:35 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Article on power sats and laser propulsion
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB5x5zTd7VUOigv5e8b1S174goRvP+Fonu5FByf=HwA2zA@mail.gmail.com>

I have a draft version of an article for the JBIS on power sats and
laser propulsion.  It's not for public dissemination.

It has not even been copy edited.  But if you want to read it and
comment, let me know and I will send you a copy.  The whole subject is
being taken just a bit seriously as a way to cope with energy and
carbon.  I spent an hour discussing it at ESTEC recently.

Keith


From clementlawyer at gmail.com  Thu Jul 12 05:24:36 2012
From: clementlawyer at gmail.com (James Clement)
Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 01:24:36 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Alzheimer's vaccine trial a success
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armi0D5LFjfzeWVYQh8YU3mBSyinrvfA2pB80Wzt+wSFKXg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armi0D5LFjfzeWVYQh8YU3mBSyinrvfA2pB80Wzt+wSFKXg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+LBAbQf4t9tu=eOFE5Wapph=w+cKw0TT=ZEsjMOmQSNb1HGfw@mail.gmail.com>

\On Fri, Jun 8, 2012 at 2:16 AM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:

> [NEWS 6 June] A study led by Karolinska Institutet reports for the
> first time the positive effects of an active vaccine against
> Alzheimer's disease. The new vaccine, CAD106, can prove a breakthrough
> in the search for a cure for this seriously debilitating dementia
> disease. The study is published in the distinguished scientific
> journal Lancet Neurology.
> <http://ki.se/ki/jsp/polopoly.jsp?l=en&d=130&a=145109&newsdep=130>
>


This was just a phase-one clinical study, meaning their objective was to
determine whether anyone would die or get a terrible side effect from the
treatment.  Here's the summary from the Lancet Neurology:

The Lancet Neurology, Volume 11, Issue
7<http://www.thelancet.com/journals/laneur/issue/vol11no7/PIIS1474-4422(12)X7020-0>,
Pages 597 - 604, July 2012
<Previous Article<http://www.thelancet.com/journals/laneur/article/PIIS1474-4422(12)70106-0/fulltext>
|Next Article<http://www.thelancet.com/journals/laneur/article/PIIS1474-4422(12)70098-4/fulltext>
>
doi:10.1016/S1474-4422(12)70140-0<http://www.thelancet.com/popup?fileName=cite-using-doi>Cite
or Link Using DOI <http://www.thelancet.com/popup?fileName=cite-using-doi>
This article can be found in the following collections:
Neurology<http://www.thelancet.com/collections/Neurology?collexcode=115>
 (Dementias<http://www.thelancet.com/collections/Neurology?collexcode=115&subcollexcode=115103>
)
Published Online: 06 June 2012
Safety, tolerability, and antibody response of active A? immunotherapy with
CAD106 in patients with Alzheimer's disease: randomised, double-blind,
placebo-controlled, first-in-human study
Prof Bengt Winblad<http://www.thelancet.com/search/results?fieldName=Authors&searchTerm=Bengt+Winblad>
 MD a<http://www.thelancet.com/journals/laneur/article/PIIS1474-4422(12)70140-0/fulltext#aff1>
 [image: Corresponding
Author]<http://www.thelancet.com/journals/laneur/article/PIIS1474-4422(12)70140-0/fulltext#cor1>[image:
Email Address] <bengt.winblad at ki.se>, Niels
Andreasen<http://www.thelancet.com/search/results?fieldName=Authors&searchTerm=Niels+Andreasen>
 MD a<http://www.thelancet.com/journals/laneur/article/PIIS1474-4422(12)70140-0/fulltext#aff1>
, Prof Lennart Minthon<http://www.thelancet.com/search/results?fieldName=Authors&searchTerm=Lennart+Minthon>
 MD b<http://www.thelancet.com/journals/laneur/article/PIIS1474-4422(12)70140-0/fulltext#aff2>
, Annette Floesser<http://www.thelancet.com/search/results?fieldName=Authors&searchTerm=Annette+Floesser>
 MSc c<http://www.thelancet.com/journals/laneur/article/PIIS1474-4422(12)70140-0/fulltext#aff3>
, Georges Imbert<http://www.thelancet.com/search/results?fieldName=Authors&searchTerm=Georges+Imbert>
 PhD c<http://www.thelancet.com/journals/laneur/article/PIIS1474-4422(12)70140-0/fulltext#aff3>
,Thomas Dumortier<http://www.thelancet.com/search/results?fieldName=Authors&searchTerm=Thomas+Dumortier>
 MSc d<http://www.thelancet.com/journals/laneur/article/PIIS1474-4422(12)70140-0/fulltext#aff4>
, R Paul Maguire<http://www.thelancet.com/search/results?fieldName=Authors&searchTerm=R%20Paul+Maguire>
 PhD c<http://www.thelancet.com/journals/laneur/article/PIIS1474-4422(12)70140-0/fulltext#aff3>
, Kaj Blennow<http://www.thelancet.com/search/results?fieldName=Authors&searchTerm=Kaj+Blennow>
 MD e<http://www.thelancet.com/journals/laneur/article/PIIS1474-4422(12)70140-0/fulltext#aff5>
, Joens Lundmark<http://www.thelancet.com/search/results?fieldName=Authors&searchTerm=Joens+Lundmark>
 MD f<http://www.thelancet.com/journals/laneur/article/PIIS1474-4422(12)70140-0/fulltext#aff6>
, Matthias Staufenbiel<http://www.thelancet.com/search/results?fieldName=Authors&searchTerm=Matthias+Staufenbiel>
 PhD c<http://www.thelancet.com/journals/laneur/article/PIIS1474-4422(12)70140-0/fulltext#aff3>
, Prof Jean-Marc
Orgogozo<http://www.thelancet.com/search/results?fieldName=Authors&searchTerm=Jean-Marc+Orgogozo>
 MD g<http://www.thelancet.com/journals/laneur/article/PIIS1474-4422(12)70140-0/fulltext#aff7>
, Ana Graf<http://www.thelancet.com/search/results?fieldName=Authors&searchTerm=Ana+Graf>
 MD d<http://www.thelancet.com/journals/laneur/article/PIIS1474-4422(12)70140-0/fulltext#aff4>
Summary
Background
Immunotherapy targeting the amyloid ? (A?) peptide is a potential strategy
to slow the progression of Alzheimer's disease. We aimed to assess the
safety and tolerability of CAD106, a novel active A? immunotherapy for
patients with Alzheimer's disease, designed to induce N-terminal
A?-specific antibodies without an A?-specific T-cell response.
Methods
We did a phase 1, double-blind, placebo-controlled, 52-week study in two
centres in Sweden. Participants, aged 50--80 years, with mild-to-moderate
Alzheimer's disease were entered into one of two cohorts according to time
of study entry and then randomly allocated (by use of a computer-generated
randomisation sequence) to receive either CAD106 or placebo (4:1; cohort
one received CAD106 50 ?g or placebo, cohort two received CAD106 150 ?g or
placebo). Each patient received three subcutaneous injections. All
patients, caregivers, and investigators were masked to treatment allocation
throughout the study. Primary objectives were to assess the safety and
tolerability of CAD106 and to identify the A?-specific antibody response.
Safety assessment was done by recording of all adverse events, assessment
of MRI scans, physical and neurological examinations, vital signs,
electrocardiography, electroencephalography, and laboratory analysis of
blood and CSF. Patients with A?-IgG serum titres higher than 16 units at
least once during the study were classified as responders. This study is
registered with ClinicalTrials.gov <http://clinicaltrials.gov/>, number
NCT00411580 <http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT00411580>.
Findings
Between August, 2005, and March, 2007, we randomly allocated 31 patients
into cohort one (24 patients to CAD106 treatment and seven to placebo) and
27 patients into cohort two (22 patients to CAD106 treatment and five to
placebo). 56 of 58 patients reported adverse events. In cohort one,
nasopharyngitis was the most commonly reported adverse event (10 of 24
CAD106-treated patients). In cohort two, injection site erythema was the
most commonly reported adverse event (14 of 22 CAD106-treated patients).
Overall, nine patients reported serious adverse events--none was thought to
be related to the study drug. We recorded no clinical or subclinical cases
of meningoencephalitis. 16 of 24 (67%) CAD106-treated patients in cohort
one and 18 of 22 (82%) in cohort two developed A? antibody response meeting
pre-specified responder threshold. One of 12 placebo-treated patients (8%)
had A?-IgG concentrations that qualified them as a responder.
Interpretation
Our findings suggest that CAD106 has a favourable safety profile and
acceptable antibody response in patients with Alzheimer's disease. Larger
trials with additional dose investigations are needed to confirm the safety
and establish the efficacy of CAD106.
Funding
Novartis Pharma AG.

Best regards,

James Clement
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From pharos at gmail.com  Thu Jul 12 07:28:40 2012
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 08:28:40 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Alzheimer's vaccine trial a success
In-Reply-To: <CA+LBAbQf4t9tu=eOFE5Wapph=w+cKw0TT=ZEsjMOmQSNb1HGfw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armi0D5LFjfzeWVYQh8YU3mBSyinrvfA2pB80Wzt+wSFKXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+LBAbQf4t9tu=eOFE5Wapph=w+cKw0TT=ZEsjMOmQSNb1HGfw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armhGfS4Lq_AW=28_EExxSX8jYU2gzkgyG=+kqg6XzHrpHA@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 6:24 AM, James Clement  wrote:
>
> This was just a phase-one clinical study, meaning their objective was to determine whether anyone
> would die or get a terrible side effect from the treatment.
> Here's the summary from the Lancet Neurology:
<snip>
>
> Interpretation
> Our findings suggest that CAD106 has a favourable safety profile and acceptable antibody
> response in patients with Alzheimer's disease. Larger trials with additional dose investigations
> are needed to confirm the safety and establish the efficacy of CAD106.
>
>


Not quite accurate. The results are better than you suggest.

Their *primary* objective was to determine whether anyone would die or
get a terrible side effect from the treatment. But they also found
good antibody generation in both cohorts of patients.
Quote:
16 of 24 (67%) CAD106-treated patients in cohort one and 18 of 22
(82%) in cohort two developed A? antibody response meeting
pre-specified responder threshold.

As the original report says:
The researchers found that 80 per cent of the patients involved in the
trials developed their own protective antibodies against beta-amyloid
without suffering any side-effects over the three years of the study.
The researchers believe that this suggests that the CAD106 vaccine is
a tolerable treatment for patients with mild to moderate Alzheimer's.
Larger trials must now be conducted to confirm the CAD106 vaccine's
efficacy.
--------------

BillK



From spike66 at att.net  Thu Jul 12 15:27:25 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 08:27:25 -0700
Subject: [ExI] what big eyes you have
Message-ID: <000f01cd6042$d86d4440$8947ccc0$@att.net>

Why do big beasts have big eyes?  I get why small beasts have small eyes
(packaging considerations) but human eyes are about the size of a ping pong
ball and they seem to work fine; they can see close, they can see far.
Eagles have smaller eyeballs than ours, but they work even better.  So why
don't elephants and cows have ping pong ball sized eyes?  I can't think of
any advantage to eyeballs scaling with the size of the beast, but I can
think of some serious disadvantages, such as they would be more easily
injured and would be more affected by gravity.  Granted an elephant with
little beady human eyes would look weird, but we would get used to it.  So
why didn't evolution think of it by now?

 

spike

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From pharos at gmail.com  Thu Jul 12 17:09:52 2012
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 18:09:52 +0100
Subject: [ExI] what big eyes you have
In-Reply-To: <000f01cd6042$d86d4440$8947ccc0$@att.net>
References: <000f01cd6042$d86d4440$8947ccc0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAL_armhU2J3E9K0U4dZf7QLux4scpawP04Dj-SOWhwom7tPZSg@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 4:27 PM, spike  wrote:
> Why do big beasts have big eyes?  I get why small beasts have small eyes
> (packaging considerations) but human eyes are about the size of a ping pong
> ball and they seem to work fine; they can see close, they can see far.
> Eagles have smaller eyeballs than ours, but they work even better.  So why
> don?t elephants and cows have ping pong ball sized eyes?  I can?t think of
> any advantage to eyeballs scaling with the size of the beast, but I can
> think of some serious disadvantages, such as they would be more easily
> injured and would be more affected by gravity.  Granted an elephant with
> little beady human eyes would look weird, but we would get used to it.  So
> why didn?t evolution think of it by now?
>
>


'Cause it's not true.  :)
As a general rule, eyes, like brains, (like pretty much every body
part) scale with body size.
<http://www.noadi.net/EyeSizes.html>

But there are loads of exceptions.
Animal, insect, fish, etc. eyes are differently designed to human eyes
and optimised for different purposes.
Human eyes are more general purpose, like their brains.

If light-gathering is important, then animals have proportionally
bigger eyes. Owls, nocturnal rodents, deep sea animals, etc.

Eagle eyes only work better in one respect. Long distance focusing,
because they can focus both the lens and the cornea. Tiger Woods and
others had to get an eye op to improve their vision above normal.

(Now discuss penis and testicle size).   :)



BillK



From dan_ust at yahoo.com  Thu Jul 12 17:44:43 2012
From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan)
Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 10:44:43 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] what big eyes you have
In-Reply-To: <000f01cd6042$d86d4440$8947ccc0$@att.net>
References: <000f01cd6042$d86d4440$8947ccc0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <1342115083.97602.YahooMailNeo@web160606.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

You would do better to compare human to other primate eyes. But one noticeable feature of human eyes is that there are whites. This appears to evolved under pressure of socialization. It's easier for humans to tell who other humans are looking at.

Regards,

Dan

________________________________
 From: spike <spike66 at att.net>
To: 'ExI chat list' <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> 
Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2012 11:27 AM
Subject: [ExI] what big eyes you have
 

Why do big beasts have big eyes?? I get why small beasts have small eyes (packaging considerations) but human eyes are about the size of a ping pong ball and they seem to work fine; they can see close, they can see far.? Eagles have smaller eyeballs than ours, but they work even better.? So why don?t elephants and cows have ping pong ball sized eyes?? I can?t think of any advantage to eyeballs scaling with the size of the beast, but I can think of some serious disadvantages, such as they would be more easily injured and would be more affected by gravity.? Granted an elephant with little beady human eyes would look weird, but we would get used to it.? So why didn?t evolution think of it by now?
?
spike
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From msd001 at gmail.com  Thu Jul 12 17:59:06 2012
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 13:59:06 -0400
Subject: [ExI] what big eyes you have
In-Reply-To: <000f01cd6042$d86d4440$8947ccc0$@att.net>
References: <000f01cd6042$d86d4440$8947ccc0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAOJFdbKmAz8Ykkck=5C6rThFQXj-gOZ=QWqmqCZMOdw_KH8beA@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 11:27 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> Why do big beasts have big eyes?  I get why small beasts have small eyes
> (packaging considerations) but human eyes are about the size of a ping pong
> ball and they seem to work fine; they can see close, they can see far.
> Eagles have smaller eyeballs than ours, but they work even better.  So why
> don?t elephants and cows have ping pong ball sized eyes?  I can?t think of
> any advantage to eyeballs scaling with the size of the beast, but I can
> think of some serious disadvantages, such as they would be more easily
> injured and would be more affected by gravity.  Granted an elephant with
> little beady human eyes would look weird, but we would get used to it.  So
> why didn?t evolution think of it by now?

Given your typical engineering approach to such questions...

What is the smallest eye capable of producing equivalence to human
vision?  The numbers would probably be different based on whether
you're talking about biologically or technologically -produced
hardware.

I imagine there is a balance between the size required to collect
enough light and the size required to attach enough nerves to actually
use the information at "retina display" resolution.

(bonus thought) how many eyes might we be able to support if we woke
up after brain-only cryopreservation and had the entire spinal cord's
worth of nerves to carry vision's bandwidth?  Imagine if your goal was
to monitor real-time camera feeds from various locations around the
world in an effort to "see" everything at once...  how many cameras
would be required to saturate your nervous system with image data -
and would your brain eventually just cook itself with that much
vision-processing?  (i assume the rate of activation over the optic
nerve is much higher than a somatic nerve, but I'm not well-informed)



From dan_ust at yahoo.com  Thu Jul 12 19:34:33 2012
From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan)
Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 12:34:33 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Alzheimer's vaccine trial a success
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armhNv-wBOgHv8fJQyDxtdSFvLifQtsOheocLVkTz46Ufqw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armi0D5LFjfzeWVYQh8YU3mBSyinrvfA2pB80Wzt+wSFKXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FFDF6DC.1080908@infinitefaculty.org>
 <CAL_armhNv-wBOgHv8fJQyDxtdSFvLifQtsOheocLVkTz46Ufqw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1342121673.96669.YahooMailNeo@web160605.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

On Wednesday, July 11, 2012 6:41 PM BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:
On Wed, Jul 11, 2012 at 10:57 PM, Brian Manning Delaney? wrote:
>> Both of these are mostly shots in the dark, since so little research has
>> been done on them in connection with Alzheimer's, but they're likely not
>> harmful. (B12 status has to be monitored with metformin.)
>
> I think that it is significant that notice is taken that elderly
> bodies work differently to youthful bodies.
>
> i.e. things that don't matter when young become significant when old.
> Supplements and diet need to change to take account of this.
>
> Don't carefully work out a regime for age 30-40 and stick with it regardless.
> Review regularly.

This is a good point. I've heard that one problem with supplements and diet for the elderly is that there's usually a decline in the ability to absorb nutrients. So, even, say, for some reason, the same amounts of micronutrients had the same benefit when they made it through the digestive system, they might not be making it through in the first place. And, of course, it's unlikely the same kinds and amounts of therapy are needed at different ages (presuming, of course, changes have occurred*).

Regards,

Dan

* It's unlikely it's the mere passage of time, but specific alterations that take place. For different individuals, these might happen at different times and to different degrees and might not cluster in the same fashion.
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From pharos at gmail.com  Thu Jul 12 20:33:43 2012
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 21:33:43 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Alzheimer's vaccine trial a success
In-Reply-To: <1342121673.96669.YahooMailNeo@web160605.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <CAL_armi0D5LFjfzeWVYQh8YU3mBSyinrvfA2pB80Wzt+wSFKXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FFDF6DC.1080908@infinitefaculty.org>
 <CAL_armhNv-wBOgHv8fJQyDxtdSFvLifQtsOheocLVkTz46Ufqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <1342121673.96669.YahooMailNeo@web160605.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armgKfN9E_Jiw2wYv0O251HFX-4pMzrL7ashLH_ZrqHRgWA@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 8:34 PM, Dan  wrote:
> This is a good point. I've heard that one problem with supplements and diet
> for the elderly is that there's usually a decline in the ability to absorb
> nutrients. So, even, say, for some reason, the same amounts of
> micronutrients had the same benefit when they made it through the digestive
> system, they might not be making it through in the first place. And, of
> course, it's unlikely the same kinds and amounts of therapy are needed at
> different ages (presuming, of course, changes have occurred*).
>
> * It's unlikely it's the mere passage of time, but specific alterations that
> take place. For different individuals, these might happen at different times
> and to different degrees and might not cluster in the same fashion.
>
>

One interesting new line of research is suggesting that cancer in the
elderly is caused by the immune system wearing out. The theory is that
cancer cells appear in the body all your life, but are usually killed
off by the immune system. The cancer disease only appears when the
immune system fails or there is a huge increase in cancer cells which
overwhelms the immune system (e.g.radiation, or asbestos, etc.).

<http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/05/07/us-immunotherapy-idUSBRE84604720120507>
Insight: Training immune system to fight cancer comes of age
By Bill Berkrot    NEW YORK | Mon May 7, 2012
More than 100 years after researchers first explored the potential to
harness the body's immune system to fight cancer, the field's leading
doctors see the concept finally proving itself on a large scale in the
next year or two.
--------------


BillK


From max at maxmore.com  Thu Jul 12 21:29:57 2012
From: max at maxmore.com (Max More)
Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 14:29:57 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Natasha's brand new doctorate
Message-ID: <CAJX-7wWAb5bevEQJDEEATKJAP48ADukw5VkgsqF+DxZ2FrGyiQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hello all.

I want to make sure that all (especially you old-timers) here know that one
of the longest-term subscribers (who also happens to be my wife) is a
newly-minted PhD.

Despite full-time work and numerous other activities, Natasha pushed on and
completed her doctoral work, capped off with a dissertation:

?Life Expansion: Toward an Artistic, Design-Based Theory of the Transhuman
/ Posthuman?

Natasha flew to England to defend her dissertation last week. Her defense
on July 5 was a thorough success!

She is now the very well-deserved possessor of a doctorate from Great
Britain?s University of Plymouth's Science, Technology Research Centre,
School of Media Arts and Design.

Here?s the abstract:

Abstract:
The thesis? study of life expansion proposes a framework for artistic,
design-based approaches concerned with prolonging human life and sustaining
personal identity. To delineate the topic: life expansion means increasing
the length of time a person is alive and diversifying the matter in which a
person exists. For human life, the length of time is bounded by a single
century and its matter is tied to biology. Life expansion is located in the
domain of human enhancement, distinctly linked to technological interfaces
with biology.
        The thesis identifies human-computer interaction and the potential
of emerging and speculative technologies as seeding the promulgation of
human enhancement that approach life expansion. In doing so, the thesis
constructs an inquiry into historical and current attempts to append human
physiology and intervene with its mortality. By encountering emerging and
speculative technologies for prolonging life and sustaining personal
identity as possible media for artistic, design-based approaches to human
enhancement, a new axis is sought that identifies the transhuman and
posthuman as conceptual paradigms for life expansion.
        The thesis asks: What are the required conditions that enable
artistic, design-based approaches to human enhancement that explicitly
pursue extending human life? This question centers on the potential of the
study?s proposed enhancement technologies in their relationship to life,
death, and the human condition. Notably, the thesis investigates artistic
approaches, as distinct from those of the natural sciences, and the borders
that need to be mediated between them.
        The study navigates between the domains of life extension, art and
design, technology, and philosophy in forming the framework for a theory of
life expansion. The critical approach seeks to uncover invisible borders
between these interconnecting forces by bringing to light issues of
sustaining life and personal identity, ethical concerns, including
morphological freedom and extinction risk. Such issues relate to the
thesis? interest in life expansion and the use emerging and speculative
technologies.
        The study takes on a triad approach in its investigation:
qualitative interviews with experts of the emerging and speculative
technologies; field studies encountering research centers of such
technologies; and an artistic, autopoietic process that explores the
heuristics of life expansion. This investigation forms an integrative view
of the human use of technology and its melioristic aim. The outcome of the
research is a theoretical framework for further research in artistic
approaches to life expansion.

I?m very proud of what Natasha has accomplished. This was a highly unusual
topic that had to overcome some significant academic barriers.

Onward!

--Max



-- 
Max More, PhD
Strategic Philosopher
Co-editor, *The Transhumanist Reader*
CEO, Alcor Life Extension Foundation
7895 E. Acoma Dr # 110
Scottsdale, AZ 85260
480/905-1906 ext 113
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From atymes at gmail.com  Thu Jul 12 23:27:59 2012
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 16:27:59 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Natasha's brand new doctorate
In-Reply-To: <CAJX-7wWAb5bevEQJDEEATKJAP48ADukw5VkgsqF+DxZ2FrGyiQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJX-7wWAb5bevEQJDEEATKJAP48ADukw5VkgsqF+DxZ2FrGyiQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNQjM_K+93kWLe084vizS4ubEcpGKQEre+9Va3XQoOgRSA@mail.gmail.com>

Congrats!

What field is the PhD officially in?
On Jul 12, 2012 4:19 PM, "Max More" <max at maxmore.com> wrote:

> Hello all.
>
> I want to make sure that all (especially you old-timers) here know that
> one of the longest-term subscribers (who also happens to be my wife) is a
> newly-minted PhD.
>
> Despite full-time work and numerous other activities, Natasha pushed on
> and completed her doctoral work, capped off with a dissertation:
>
> ?Life Expansion: Toward an Artistic, Design-Based Theory of the Transhuman
> / Posthuman?
>
> Natasha flew to England to defend her dissertation last week. Her defense
> on July 5 was a thorough success!
>
> She is now the very well-deserved possessor of a doctorate from Great
> Britain?s University of Plymouth's Science, Technology Research Centre,
> School of Media Arts and Design.
>
> Here?s the abstract:
>
> Abstract:
> The thesis? study of life expansion proposes a framework for artistic,
> design-based approaches concerned with prolonging human life and sustaining
> personal identity. To delineate the topic: life expansion means increasing
> the length of time a person is alive and diversifying the matter in which a
> person exists. For human life, the length of time is bounded by a single
> century and its matter is tied to biology. Life expansion is located in the
> domain of human enhancement, distinctly linked to technological interfaces
> with biology.
>         The thesis identifies human-computer interaction and the potential
> of emerging and speculative technologies as seeding the promulgation of
> human enhancement that approach life expansion. In doing so, the thesis
> constructs an inquiry into historical and current attempts to append human
> physiology and intervene with its mortality. By encountering emerging and
> speculative technologies for prolonging life and sustaining personal
> identity as possible media for artistic, design-based approaches to human
> enhancement, a new axis is sought that identifies the transhuman and
> posthuman as conceptual paradigms for life expansion.
>         The thesis asks: What are the required conditions that enable
> artistic, design-based approaches to human enhancement that explicitly
> pursue extending human life? This question centers on the potential of the
> study?s proposed enhancement technologies in their relationship to life,
> death, and the human condition. Notably, the thesis investigates artistic
> approaches, as distinct from those of the natural sciences, and the borders
> that need to be mediated between them.
>         The study navigates between the domains of life extension, art and
> design, technology, and philosophy in forming the framework for a theory of
> life expansion. The critical approach seeks to uncover invisible borders
> between these interconnecting forces by bringing to light issues of
> sustaining life and personal identity, ethical concerns, including
> morphological freedom and extinction risk. Such issues relate to the
> thesis? interest in life expansion and the use emerging and speculative
> technologies.
>         The study takes on a triad approach in its investigation:
> qualitative interviews with experts of the emerging and speculative
> technologies; field studies encountering research centers of such
> technologies; and an artistic, autopoietic process that explores the
> heuristics of life expansion. This investigation forms an integrative view
> of the human use of technology and its melioristic aim. The outcome of the
> research is a theoretical framework for further research in artistic
> approaches to life expansion.
>
> I?m very proud of what Natasha has accomplished. This was a highly unusual
> topic that had to overcome some significant academic barriers.
>
> Onward!
>
> --Max
>
>
>
> --
> Max More, PhD
> Strategic Philosopher
> Co-editor, *The Transhumanist Reader*
> CEO, Alcor Life Extension Foundation
> 7895 E. Acoma Dr # 110
> Scottsdale, AZ 85260
> 480/905-1906 ext 113
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From aware at awareresearch.com  Thu Jul 12 23:28:50 2012
From: aware at awareresearch.com (Aware)
Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 16:28:50 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Natasha's brand new doctorate
In-Reply-To: <CAJX-7wWAb5bevEQJDEEATKJAP48ADukw5VkgsqF+DxZ2FrGyiQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJX-7wWAb5bevEQJDEEATKJAP48ADukw5VkgsqF+DxZ2FrGyiQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKgYfJwweFJjytJXv9w6PdaZoTO-Sr1NWOdk-08UdNGBzTyuHw@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 2:29 PM, Max More <max at maxmore.com> wrote:
> I want to make sure that all (especially you old-timers) here know that one of the longest-term subscribers (who also happens to be my wife) is a newly-minted PhD.

Congratulations Natasha!
- Jef <recloaking>


From pjmanney at gmail.com  Fri Jul 13 00:03:37 2012
From: pjmanney at gmail.com (PJ Manney)
Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 17:03:37 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Natasha's brand new doctorate
In-Reply-To: <CAJX-7wWAb5bevEQJDEEATKJAP48ADukw5VkgsqF+DxZ2FrGyiQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJX-7wWAb5bevEQJDEEATKJAP48ADukw5VkgsqF+DxZ2FrGyiQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJrtBE1gkge7+C1j=BfnSHZE8mZtXsokDXVunc1x1LjguGG4+A@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 2:29 PM, Max More <max at maxmore.com> wrote:
> I want to make sure that all (especially you old-timers) here know that
> one of the longest-term subscribers (who also happens to be my wife) is a
> newly-minted PhD.

Awesome!  Congratulations Dr. Vita-More!  You rock!

xxoo,
PJ


From kellycoinguy at gmail.com  Fri Jul 13 00:14:46 2012
From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 18:14:46 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Natasha's brand new doctorate
In-Reply-To: <CAJX-7wWAb5bevEQJDEEATKJAP48ADukw5VkgsqF+DxZ2FrGyiQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJX-7wWAb5bevEQJDEEATKJAP48ADukw5VkgsqF+DxZ2FrGyiQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPy8Rwas=Oy35OjhCOBkvp8wh=itYFKzXErHRGZfFfkRFfnxCg@mail.gmail.com>

Congratulations to BOTH of you... supporting a spouse through
obtaining a PHD is a non-trivial activity as well! Something like
having a pregnant wife... :-)

-Kelly


From brentn at brentneal.me  Fri Jul 13 00:43:19 2012
From: brentn at brentneal.me (Brent Neal)
Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 20:43:19 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Natasha's brand new doctorate
In-Reply-To: <CAJX-7wWAb5bevEQJDEEATKJAP48ADukw5VkgsqF+DxZ2FrGyiQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJX-7wWAb5bevEQJDEEATKJAP48ADukw5VkgsqF+DxZ2FrGyiQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1F7A84DD-3091-4971-8CAF-715E6D755359@brentneal.me>


On 12 Jul, 2012, at 17:29, Max More wrote:

> Hello all.
> 
> I want to make sure that all (especially you old-timers) here know that one of the longest-term subscribers (who also happens to be my wife) is a newly-minted PhD.
> 

Natasha -

Congratulations and well-done!

B

--
Brent Neal, Ph.D.
http://www.brentneal.me
<brentn at brentneal.me>




From spike66 at att.net  Fri Jul 13 01:07:58 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 18:07:58 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Natasha's brand new doctorate
In-Reply-To: <CAJX-7wWAb5bevEQJDEEATKJAP48ADukw5VkgsqF+DxZ2FrGyiQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJX-7wWAb5bevEQJDEEATKJAP48ADukw5VkgsqF+DxZ2FrGyiQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00c401cd6093$f14803a0$d3d80ae0$@att.net>

Well done Natasha!  Congrats.

 

Now you must hear every amateur wordplay comedian deriving every variation
of wordplay involving More paradox.  That's a cheerful thing to endure.

 

spike

 

From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Max More
Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2012 2:30 PM
To: ExI chat list
Subject: [ExI] Natasha's brand new doctorate

 

Hello all.

 

I want to make sure that all (especially you old-timers) here know that one
of the longest-term subscribers (who also happens to be my wife) is a
newly-minted PhD.

 

.

Onward!

 

--Max

 

 

 

-- 

Max More, PhD

 

 

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From pizerdavid at yahoo.com  Fri Jul 13 01:07:28 2012
From: pizerdavid at yahoo.com (david pizer)
Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 18:07:28 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Natasha's brand new doctorate
In-Reply-To: <CAJX-7wWAb5bevEQJDEEATKJAP48ADukw5VkgsqF+DxZ2FrGyiQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJX-7wWAb5bevEQJDEEATKJAP48ADukw5VkgsqF+DxZ2FrGyiQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1342141648.30705.YahooMailNeo@web161706.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

This is great news -? Congradulations!

 

________________________________
 From: Max More <max at maxmore.com>
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> 
Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2012 3:29 PM
Subject: [ExI] Natasha's brand new doctorate
  

Hello all.

I want to make sure that all (especially you old-timers) here know that one of the longest-term subscribers (who also happens to be my wife) is a newly-minted PhD.
 
Despite full-time work and numerous other activities, Natasha pushed on and completed her doctoral work, capped off with a dissertation:

?Life Expansion: Toward an Artistic, Design-Based Theory of the Transhuman / Posthuman? 

Natasha flew to England to defend her dissertation last week. Her defense on July 5 was a thorough success!

She is now the very well-deserved possessor of a doctorate from Great Britain?s University of Plymouth's Science, Technology Research Centre, School of Media Arts and Design.? 

Here?s the abstract:

Abstract:
The thesis? study of life expansion proposes a framework for artistic, design-based approaches concerned with prolonging human life and sustaining personal identity. To delineate the topic: life expansion means increasing the length of time a person is alive and diversifying the matter in which a person exists. For human life, the length of time is bounded by a single century and its matter is tied to biology. Life expansion is located in the domain of human enhancement, distinctly linked to technological interfaces with biology. 
? ? ? ? The thesis identifies human-computer interaction and the potential of emerging and speculative technologies as seeding the promulgation of human enhancement that approach life expansion. In doing so, the thesis constructs an inquiry into historical and current attempts to append human physiology and intervene with its mortality. By encountering emerging and speculative technologies for prolonging life and sustaining personal identity as possible media for artistic, design-based approaches to human enhancement, a new axis is sought that identifies the transhuman and posthuman as conceptual paradigms for life expansion. 
? ? ? ? The thesis asks: What are the required conditions that enable artistic, design-based approaches to human enhancement that explicitly pursue extending human life? This question centers on the potential of the study?s proposed enhancement technologies in their relationship to life, death, and the human condition. Notably, the thesis investigates artistic approaches, as distinct from those of the natural sciences, and the borders that need to be mediated between them. 
? ? ? ? The study navigates between the domains of life extension, art and design, technology, and philosophy in forming the framework for a theory of life expansion. The critical approach seeks to uncover invisible borders between these interconnecting forces by bringing to light issues of sustaining life and personal identity, ethical concerns, including morphological freedom and extinction risk. Such issues relate to the thesis? interest in life expansion and the use emerging and speculative technologies. 
? ? ? ? The study takes on a triad approach in its investigation: qualitative interviews with experts of the emerging and speculative technologies; field studies encountering research centers of such technologies; and an artistic, autopoietic process that explores the heuristics of life expansion. This investigation forms an integrative view of the human use of technology and its melioristic aim. The outcome of the research is a theoretical framework for further research in artistic approaches to life expansion. 

I?m very proud of what Natasha has accomplished. This was a highly unusual topic that had to overcome some significant academic barriers.

Onward!

--Max 


-- 

Max More, PhD
Strategic Philosopher
Co-editor, The Transhumanist Reader
CEO, Alcor Life Extension Foundation
7895 E. Acoma Dr # 110 
Scottsdale, AZ 85260
480/905-1906 ext 113

_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
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From natasha at natasha.cc  Fri Jul 13 01:33:52 2012
From: natasha at natasha.cc (natasha at natasha.cc)
Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 21:33:52 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Natasha's brand new doctorate
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNQjM_K+93kWLe084vizS4ubEcpGKQEre+9Va3XQoOgRSA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJX-7wWAb5bevEQJDEEATKJAP48ADukw5VkgsqF+DxZ2FrGyiQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQjM_K+93kWLe084vizS4ubEcpGKQEre+9Va3XQoOgRSA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120712213352.scj3ct0sveo0gw00@webmail.natasha.cc>

The "official" department paperwork is being processed ... but it is  
in the School of Media Arts and Design(which includes consciousness  
studies).

Quoting Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com>:

> Congrats!
>
> What field is the PhD officially in?
> On Jul 12, 2012 4:19 PM, "Max More" <max at maxmore.com> wrote:
>
>> Hello all.
>>
>> I want to make sure that all (especially you old-timers) here know that
>> one of the longest-term subscribers (who also happens to be my wife) is a
>> newly-minted PhD.
>>
>> Despite full-time work and numerous other activities, Natasha pushed on
>> and completed her doctoral work, capped off with a dissertation:
>>
>> "Life Expansion: Toward an Artistic, Design-Based Theory of the Transhuman
>> / Posthuman"
>>
>> Natasha flew to England to defend her dissertation last week. Her defense
>> on July 5 was a thorough success!
>>
>> She is now the very well-deserved possessor of a doctorate from Great
>> Britain's University of Plymouth's Science, Technology Research Centre,
>> School of Media Arts and Design.
>>
>> Here's the abstract:
>>
>> Abstract:
>> The thesis' study of life expansion proposes a framework for artistic,
>> design-based approaches concerned with prolonging human life and sustaining
>> personal identity. To delineate the topic: life expansion means increasing
>> the length of time a person is alive and diversifying the matter in which a
>> person exists. For human life, the length of time is bounded by a single
>> century and its matter is tied to biology. Life expansion is located in the
>> domain of human enhancement, distinctly linked to technological interfaces
>> with biology.
>>         The thesis identifies human-computer interaction and the potential
>> of emerging and speculative technologies as seeding the promulgation of
>> human enhancement that approach life expansion. In doing so, the thesis
>> constructs an inquiry into historical and current attempts to append human
>> physiology and intervene with its mortality. By encountering emerging and
>> speculative technologies for prolonging life and sustaining personal
>> identity as possible media for artistic, design-based approaches to human
>> enhancement, a new axis is sought that identifies the transhuman and
>> posthuman as conceptual paradigms for life expansion.
>>         The thesis asks: What are the required conditions that enable
>> artistic, design-based approaches to human enhancement that explicitly
>> pursue extending human life? This question centers on the potential of the
>> study's proposed enhancement technologies in their relationship to life,
>> death, and the human condition. Notably, the thesis investigates artistic
>> approaches, as distinct from those of the natural sciences, and the borders
>> that need to be mediated between them.
>>         The study navigates between the domains of life extension, art and
>> design, technology, and philosophy in forming the framework for a theory of
>> life expansion. The critical approach seeks to uncover invisible borders
>> between these interconnecting forces by bringing to light issues of
>> sustaining life and personal identity, ethical concerns, including
>> morphological freedom and extinction risk. Such issues relate to the
>> thesis' interest in life expansion and the use emerging and speculative
>> technologies.
>>         The study takes on a triad approach in its investigation:
>> qualitative interviews with experts of the emerging and speculative
>> technologies; field studies encountering research centers of such
>> technologies; and an artistic, autopoietic process that explores the
>> heuristics of life expansion. This investigation forms an integrative view
>> of the human use of technology and its melioristic aim. The outcome of the
>> research is a theoretical framework for further research in artistic
>> approaches to life expansion.
>>
>> I'm very proud of what Natasha has accomplished. This was a highly unusual
>> topic that had to overcome some significant academic barriers.
>>
>> Onward!
>>
>> --Max
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Max More, PhD
>> Strategic Philosopher
>> Co-editor, *The Transhumanist Reader*
>> CEO, Alcor Life Extension Foundation
>> 7895 E. Acoma Dr # 110
>> Scottsdale, AZ 85260
>> 480/905-1906 ext 113
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
>>
>






From mbb386 at main.nc.us  Fri Jul 13 02:12:29 2012
From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB)
Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 22:12:29 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Natasha's brand new doctorate
In-Reply-To: <20120712213352.scj3ct0sveo0gw00@webmail.natasha.cc>
References: <CAJX-7wWAb5bevEQJDEEATKJAP48ADukw5VkgsqF+DxZ2FrGyiQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQjM_K+93kWLe084vizS4ubEcpGKQEre+9Va3XQoOgRSA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120712213352.scj3ct0sveo0gw00@webmail.natasha.cc>
Message-ID: <6fe7dc1a4bf90c44f16b45c72092b4a3.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>

Congratulations, Natasha!

Regards,
MB



From rtomek at ceti.pl  Fri Jul 13 02:28:47 2012
From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola)
Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2012 04:28:47 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] Natasha's brand new doctorate
In-Reply-To: <CAJX-7wWAb5bevEQJDEEATKJAP48ADukw5VkgsqF+DxZ2FrGyiQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJX-7wWAb5bevEQJDEEATKJAP48ADukw5VkgsqF+DxZ2FrGyiQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1207130426380.7078@tau.ceti.pl>

On Thu, 12 Jul 2012, Max More wrote:

> Hello all.
> 
> I want to make sure that all (especially you old-timers) here know that one
> of the longest-term subscribers (who also happens to be my wife) is a
> newly-minted PhD.

Wow, congratulations.

Is it possible to read the text online?

Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.      **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home    **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...      **
**                                                                 **
** Tomasz Rola          mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com             **


From gsantostasi at gmail.com  Fri Jul 13 02:05:50 2012
From: gsantostasi at gmail.com (Giovanni Santostasi)
Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 21:05:50 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Natasha's brand new doctorate
In-Reply-To: <CAJrtBE1gkge7+C1j=BfnSHZE8mZtXsokDXVunc1x1LjguGG4+A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJX-7wWAb5bevEQJDEEATKJAP48ADukw5VkgsqF+DxZ2FrGyiQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJrtBE1gkge7+C1j=BfnSHZE8mZtXsokDXVunc1x1LjguGG4+A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL+RtPe5zaPhzo7=Nh_+Ops7WYKxT=L-uHPfQXL+SCgWP7tdMQ@mail.gmail.com>

Congratulations Dr. Vita-More, you are one of my favorite intellectual and
transhumanists.
Giovanni


On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 7:03 PM, PJ Manney <pjmanney at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 2:29 PM, Max More <max at maxmore.com> wrote:
> > I want to make sure that all (especially you old-timers) here know that
> > one of the longest-term subscribers (who also happens to be my wife) is a
> > newly-minted PhD.
>
> Awesome!  Congratulations Dr. Vita-More!  You rock!
>
> xxoo,
> PJ
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From brent.allsop at canonizer.com  Fri Jul 13 04:00:02 2012
From: brent.allsop at canonizer.com (Brent Allsop)
Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 22:00:02 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Natasha's brand new doctorate
In-Reply-To: <00c401cd6093$f14803a0$d3d80ae0$@att.net>
References: <CAJX-7wWAb5bevEQJDEEATKJAP48ADukw5VkgsqF+DxZ2FrGyiQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <00c401cd6093$f14803a0$d3d80ae0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <4FFF9D42.6060608@canonizer.com>


You go girl!!

Brent Allsop



On 7/12/2012 7:07 PM, spike wrote:
>
> Well done Natasha!  Congrats.
>
> Now you must hear every amateur wordplay comedian deriving every 
> variation of wordplay involving More paradox.  That's a cheerful thing 
> to endure.
>
> spike
>
> *From:*extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org 
> [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] *On Behalf Of *Max More
> *Sent:* Thursday, July 12, 2012 2:30 PM
> *To:* ExI chat list
> *Subject:* [ExI] Natasha's brand new doctorate
>
> Hello all.
>
> I want to make sure that all (especially you old-timers) here know 
> that one of the longest-term subscribers (who also happens to be my 
> wife) is a newly-minted PhD.
>
> ...
>
> Onward!
>
> --Max
>
> -- 
>
> Max More, PhD
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


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From ilia.stambler at gmail.com  Fri Jul 13 04:54:00 2012
From: ilia.stambler at gmail.com (Ilia Stambler)
Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2012 07:54:00 +0300
Subject: [ExI] Natasha's brand new doctorate
In-Reply-To: <CAL+RtPe5zaPhzo7=Nh_+Ops7WYKxT=L-uHPfQXL+SCgWP7tdMQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJX-7wWAb5bevEQJDEEATKJAP48ADukw5VkgsqF+DxZ2FrGyiQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJrtBE1gkge7+C1j=BfnSHZE8mZtXsokDXVunc1x1LjguGG4+A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL+RtPe5zaPhzo7=Nh_+Ops7WYKxT=L-uHPfQXL+SCgWP7tdMQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJbwcBg2JswoB7QvOwzpvtmyPOLqrxkFAbHrO_Q1hDQ=h+kRrw@mail.gmail.com>

CONGRATULATIONS DR. VITA-MORE!

Mazal Tov from Israel!!

ilia

On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 5:05 AM, Giovanni Santostasi
<gsantostasi at gmail.com>wrote:

> Congratulations Dr. Vita-More, you are one of my favorite intellectual and
> transhumanists.
> Giovanni
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 7:03 PM, PJ Manney <pjmanney at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 2:29 PM, Max More <max at maxmore.com> wrote:
>> > I want to make sure that all (especially you old-timers) here know that
>> > one of the longest-term subscribers (who also happens to be my wife) is
>> a
>> > newly-minted PhD.
>>
>> Awesome!  Congratulations Dr. Vita-More!  You rock!
>>
>> xxoo,
>> PJ
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Fri Jul 13 05:21:16 2012
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 22:21:16 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Natasha's brand new doctorate
In-Reply-To: <CAKgYfJwweFJjytJXv9w6PdaZoTO-Sr1NWOdk-08UdNGBzTyuHw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJX-7wWAb5bevEQJDEEATKJAP48ADukw5VkgsqF+DxZ2FrGyiQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKgYfJwweFJjytJXv9w6PdaZoTO-Sr1NWOdk-08UdNGBzTyuHw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1342156876.42586.YahooMailNeo@web164503.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

?
?
Congratulations, Doctor Natasha! :-)

?
?
Stuart LaForge
?
"Prisons are built with stones of Law. Brothels with the bricks of religion." - William Blake



From giulio at gmail.com  Fri Jul 13 05:01:54 2012
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2012 07:01:54 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Natasha's brand new doctorate
In-Reply-To: <CAJX-7wWAb5bevEQJDEEATKJAP48ADukw5VkgsqF+DxZ2FrGyiQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJX-7wWAb5bevEQJDEEATKJAP48ADukw5VkgsqF+DxZ2FrGyiQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKTCJyfEC2u-X4u139Wxn8R2jsZaxTnD8M9E+RJt+EPua-CAhQ@mail.gmail.com>

Congratulations Dr. Vita-More !

On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 11:29 PM, Max More <max at maxmore.com> wrote:
> Hello all.
>
> I want to make sure that all (especially you old-timers) here know that one
> of the longest-term subscribers (who also happens to be my wife) is a
> newly-minted PhD.
>
> Despite full-time work and numerous other activities, Natasha pushed on and
> completed her doctoral work, capped off with a dissertation:
>
> ?Life Expansion: Toward an Artistic, Design-Based Theory of the Transhuman /
> Posthuman?
>
> Natasha flew to England to defend her dissertation last week. Her defense on
> July 5 was a thorough success!
>
> She is now the very well-deserved possessor of a doctorate from Great
> Britain?s University of Plymouth's Science, Technology Research Centre,
> School of Media Arts and Design.
>
> Here?s the abstract:
>
> Abstract:
> The thesis? study of life expansion proposes a framework for artistic,
> design-based approaches concerned with prolonging human life and sustaining
> personal identity. To delineate the topic: life expansion means increasing
> the length of time a person is alive and diversifying the matter in which a
> person exists. For human life, the length of time is bounded by a single
> century and its matter is tied to biology. Life expansion is located in the
> domain of human enhancement, distinctly linked to technological interfaces
> with biology.
>         The thesis identifies human-computer interaction and the potential
> of emerging and speculative technologies as seeding the promulgation of
> human enhancement that approach life expansion. In doing so, the thesis
> constructs an inquiry into historical and current attempts to append human
> physiology and intervene with its mortality. By encountering emerging and
> speculative technologies for prolonging life and sustaining personal
> identity as possible media for artistic, design-based approaches to human
> enhancement, a new axis is sought that identifies the transhuman and
> posthuman as conceptual paradigms for life expansion.
>         The thesis asks: What are the required conditions that enable
> artistic, design-based approaches to human enhancement that explicitly
> pursue extending human life? This question centers on the potential of the
> study?s proposed enhancement technologies in their relationship to life,
> death, and the human condition. Notably, the thesis investigates artistic
> approaches, as distinct from those of the natural sciences, and the borders
> that need to be mediated between them.
>         The study navigates between the domains of life extension, art and
> design, technology, and philosophy in forming the framework for a theory of
> life expansion. The critical approach seeks to uncover invisible borders
> between these interconnecting forces by bringing to light issues of
> sustaining life and personal identity, ethical concerns, including
> morphological freedom and extinction risk. Such issues relate to the thesis?
> interest in life expansion and the use emerging and speculative
> technologies.
>         The study takes on a triad approach in its investigation:
> qualitative interviews with experts of the emerging and speculative
> technologies; field studies encountering research centers of such
> technologies; and an artistic, autopoietic process that explores the
> heuristics of life expansion. This investigation forms an integrative view
> of the human use of technology and its melioristic aim. The outcome of the
> research is a theoretical framework for further research in artistic
> approaches to life expansion.
>
> I?m very proud of what Natasha has accomplished. This was a highly unusual
> topic that had to overcome some significant academic barriers.
>
> Onward!
>
> --Max
>
>
>
> --
> Max More, PhD
> Strategic Philosopher
> Co-editor, The Transhumanist Reader
> CEO, Alcor Life Extension Foundation
> 7895 E. Acoma Dr # 110
> Scottsdale, AZ 85260
> 480/905-1906 ext 113
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>



From eugen at leitl.org  Fri Jul 13 09:21:28 2012
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2012 11:21:28 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Natasha's brand new doctorate
In-Reply-To: <CAJrtBE1gkge7+C1j=BfnSHZE8mZtXsokDXVunc1x1LjguGG4+A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJX-7wWAb5bevEQJDEEATKJAP48ADukw5VkgsqF+DxZ2FrGyiQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJrtBE1gkge7+C1j=BfnSHZE8mZtXsokDXVunc1x1LjguGG4+A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120713092128.GE12615@leitl.org>

On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 05:03:37PM -0700, PJ Manney wrote:
> On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 2:29 PM, Max More <max at maxmore.com> wrote:
> > I want to make sure that all (especially you old-timers) here know that
> > one of the longest-term subscribers (who also happens to be my wife) is a
> > newly-minted PhD.
> 
> Awesome!  Congratulations Dr. Vita-More!  You rock!

Woo-hoo! Congratulations, Natasha!
 


From kryonica at gmail.com  Fri Jul 13 09:14:29 2012
From: kryonica at gmail.com (Kryonica)
Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2012 10:14:29 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Natasha's brand new doctorate
In-Reply-To: <CAJX-7wWAb5bevEQJDEEATKJAP48ADukw5VkgsqF+DxZ2FrGyiQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJX-7wWAb5bevEQJDEEATKJAP48ADukw5VkgsqF+DxZ2FrGyiQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3A2EF8E5-E587-43C2-8EE7-369A985E259D@gmail.com>

Congratulations!  Hopefully this dissertation will take the form of a book at some stage?  I would like to read it.
On 12 Jul 2012, at 22:29, Max More wrote:

> Hello all.
> 
> I want to make sure that all (especially you old-timers) here know that one of the longest-term subscribers (who also happens to be my wife) is a newly-minted PhD.
> 
> Despite full-time work and numerous other activities, Natasha pushed on and completed her doctoral work, capped off with a dissertation:
> 
> ?Life Expansion: Toward an Artistic, Design-Based Theory of the Transhuman / Posthuman?
> 
> Natasha flew to England to defend her dissertation last week. Her defense on July 5 was a thorough success!
> 
> She is now the very well-deserved possessor of a doctorate from Great Britain?s University of Plymouth's Science, Technology Research Centre, School of Media Arts and Design. 
> 
> Here?s the abstract:
> 
> Abstract:
> The thesis? study of life expansion proposes a framework for artistic, design-based approaches concerned with prolonging human life and sustaining personal identity. To delineate the topic: life expansion means increasing the length of time a person is alive and diversifying the matter in which a person exists. For human life, the length of time is bounded by a single century and its matter is tied to biology. Life expansion is located in the domain of human enhancement, distinctly linked to technological interfaces with biology.
>         The thesis identifies human-computer interaction and the potential of emerging and speculative technologies as seeding the promulgation of human enhancement that approach life expansion. In doing so, the thesis constructs an inquiry into historical and current attempts to append human physiology and intervene with its mortality. By encountering emerging and speculative technologies for prolonging life and sustaining personal identity as possible media for artistic, design-based approaches to human enhancement, a new axis is sought that identifies the transhuman and posthuman as conceptual paradigms for life expansion.
>         The thesis asks: What are the required conditions that enable artistic, design-based approaches to human enhancement that explicitly pursue extending human life? This question centers on the potential of the study?s proposed enhancement technologies in their relationship to life, death, and the human condition. Notably, the thesis investigates artistic approaches, as distinct from those of the natural sciences, and the borders that need to be mediated between them.
>         The study navigates between the domains of life extension, art and design, technology, and philosophy in forming the framework for a theory of life expansion. The critical approach seeks to uncover invisible borders between these interconnecting forces by bringing to light issues of sustaining life and personal identity, ethical concerns, including morphological freedom and extinction risk. Such issues relate to the thesis? interest in life expansion and the use emerging and speculative technologies.
>         The study takes on a triad approach in its investigation: qualitative interviews with experts of the emerging and speculative technologies; field studies encountering research centers of such technologies; and an artistic, autopoietic process that explores the heuristics of life expansion. This investigation forms an integrative view of the human use of technology and its melioristic aim. The outcome of the research is a theoretical framework for further research in artistic approaches to life expansion.
> 
> I?m very proud of what Natasha has accomplished. This was a highly unusual topic that had to overcome some significant academic barriers.
> 
> Onward!
> 
> --Max
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Max More, PhD
> Strategic Philosopher
> Co-editor, The Transhumanist Reader
> CEO, Alcor Life Extension Foundation
> 7895 E. Acoma Dr # 110
> Scottsdale, AZ 85260
> 480/905-1906 ext 113
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat




From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Fri Jul 13 09:31:35 2012
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2012 02:31:35 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Natasha's brand new doctorate
In-Reply-To: <20120713092128.GE12615@leitl.org>
References: <CAJX-7wWAb5bevEQJDEEATKJAP48ADukw5VkgsqF+DxZ2FrGyiQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJrtBE1gkge7+C1j=BfnSHZE8mZtXsokDXVunc1x1LjguGG4+A@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120713092128.GE12615@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy2yzwcO18P3g39PtNM8TUsr=qP4RQgeY_YLWSzqi7w7KQ@mail.gmail.com>

Natasha, CONGRATULATIONS!!!  Now there are *two* doctors in the house!  :
)  I'm so glad that you now have the heavy academic hammer of a PhD by your
name, as you go to various prestigious conferences to advance the cause.


Best wishes,

John

On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 2:21 AM, Eugen Leitl <eugen at leitl.org> wrote:

> On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 05:03:37PM -0700, PJ Manney wrote:
> > On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 2:29 PM, Max More <max at maxmore.com> wrote:
> > > I want to make sure that all (especially you old-timers) here know that
> > > one of the longest-term subscribers (who also happens to be my wife)
> is a
> > > newly-minted PhD.
> >
> > Awesome!  Congratulations Dr. Vita-More!  You rock!
>
> Woo-hoo! Congratulations, Natasha!
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From ginakathleenmiller at gmail.com  Fri Jul 13 16:04:15 2012
From: ginakathleenmiller at gmail.com (Gina Miller)
Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2012 10:04:15 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Natasha's brand new doctorate
In-Reply-To: <4FFF9D42.6060608@canonizer.com>
References: <CAJX-7wWAb5bevEQJDEEATKJAP48ADukw5VkgsqF+DxZ2FrGyiQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <00c401cd6093$f14803a0$d3d80ae0$@att.net>
 <4FFF9D42.6060608@canonizer.com>
Message-ID: <CAMd8APx-FOdvLrGO+3QzsPm5cz7=_LAttUcNHrwufP=rohM+6Q@mail.gmail.com>

Congratulations Natasha! So fitting for such a brilliant mind.

Gina "Nanogirl" Miller
nanogirl.com


On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 10:00 PM, Brent Allsop
<brent.allsop at canonizer.com>wrote:

>
> You go girl!!
>
> Brent Allsop
>
>
>
> On 7/12/2012 7:07 PM, spike wrote:
>
>  Well done Natasha!  Congrats.****
>
> ** **
>
> Now you must hear every amateur wordplay comedian deriving every variation
> of wordplay involving More paradox.  That?s a cheerful thing to endure.***
> *
>
> ** **
>
> spike****
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [
> mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org<extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org>]
> *On Behalf Of *Max More
> *Sent:* Thursday, July 12, 2012 2:30 PM
> *To:* ExI chat list
> *Subject:* [ExI] Natasha's brand new doctorate****
>
> ** **
>
> Hello all.****
>
> ** **
>
> I want to make sure that all (especially you old-timers) here know that
> one of the longest-term subscribers (who also happens to be my wife) is a
> newly-minted PhD.****
>
> ** **
>
> ?****
>
> Onward!****
>
> ** **
>
> --Max****
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> -- ****
>
> Max More, PhD****
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing listextropy-chat at lists.extropy.orghttp://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Fri Jul 13 22:13:57 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2012 00:13:57 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Why is there Something rather than Nothing?
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armgEM9ukTvcX6EtTxKd5mwkbrgBw0o-Lyff79pSbg6fWXg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armgEM9ukTvcX6EtTxKd5mwkbrgBw0o-Lyff79pSbg6fWXg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a6y9H2rVyTffFAaHxjDArec+VyWxiE3YfKU421TvLbuBw@mail.gmail.com>

On 11 July 2012 12:26, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:

> Michael Shermer discusses 12 possible answers to the question of why
> there is something rather than nothing.
>
> <http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/12-07-11/#feature>
>

Hey, looks in the Anglo-Saxon word unless you are a postmodernist scholar
you are not very likely to be familiar with Heidegger yet... :-)

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Fri Jul 13 23:25:07 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2012 01:25:07 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Natasha's brand new doctorate
In-Reply-To: <CAJX-7wWAb5bevEQJDEEATKJAP48ADukw5VkgsqF+DxZ2FrGyiQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJX-7wWAb5bevEQJDEEATKJAP48ADukw5VkgsqF+DxZ2FrGyiQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a6wVQ4XrjGi69wsgtTod2OPOTohOh1yBRvdWuxsr4hk6A@mail.gmail.com>

On 12 July 2012 23:29, Max More <max at maxmore.com> wrote:

> I want to make sure that all (especially you old-timers) here know that
> one of the longest-term subscribers (who also happens to be my wife) is a
> newly-minted PhD.
>

I heartily congratulate Natasha for that, and hope that the full text of
her dissertation is becoming publicly available soon.?


> Natasha flew to England to defend her dissertation last week.
>

I love such anglo-saxon archaisms, in Italy we merely *present* them, but
this sounds much more, well, doctoral. :-)

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From spike66 at att.net  Sat Jul 14 00:24:20 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2012 17:24:20 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Natasha's brand new doctorate
In-Reply-To: <CAPoR7a6wVQ4XrjGi69wsgtTod2OPOTohOh1yBRvdWuxsr4hk6A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJX-7wWAb5bevEQJDEEATKJAP48ADukw5VkgsqF+DxZ2FrGyiQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a6wVQ4XrjGi69wsgtTod2OPOTohOh1yBRvdWuxsr4hk6A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <002901cd6157$037fab40$0a7f01c0$@att.net>

 

 

From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Stefano Vaj
.

 

>>.Natasha flew to England to defend her dissertation last week. 

 

>.I love such anglo-saxon archaisms, in Italy we merely *present* them, but
this sounds much more, well, doctoral. :-) -- Stefano Vaj

 

 

I disagree so much Stefano.  The more active verb "defend" is the right
word, for it is much more wonderfully descriptive of the exhausting and
rigorous process of getting the highly esteemed doctoral degree.  There is
nothing passive about that course of study.  Over the years, requirement
inflation has caused students to take longer and longer to achieve that
level.  

 

Stanford for one of many such examples, has created a de facto coalition
with the defense industry for voluntary slave labor reseachers from among
the talented graduate students, in an arrangement that is clearly beneficial
to Stanford and the biz, and arguably the student.  Arrangements are made
for a pittance of a stipend, sufficient for survival but not for living in
luxury.  Plenty of graduate students find they rather enjoy the intellectual
stimulation and (ahem) *scenery* of campus life, and cheerfully accept the
lifestyle restrictions, sometimes taking nearly a decade to finish the
doctoral degree, displaying no great urgency to graduate.

 

Still, when that time eventually arrives to defend that dissertation, the
battle can be understandably fierce.  The number of PhDs awarded is
necessarily kept low, and only the good ones will do.

 

spike

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From natasha at natasha.cc  Sat Jul 14 00:53:35 2012
From: natasha at natasha.cc (natasha at natasha.cc)
Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2012 20:53:35 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Natasha's brand new doctorate
In-Reply-To: <002901cd6157$037fab40$0a7f01c0$@att.net>
References: <CAJX-7wWAb5bevEQJDEEATKJAP48ADukw5VkgsqF+DxZ2FrGyiQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a6wVQ4XrjGi69wsgtTod2OPOTohOh1yBRvdWuxsr4hk6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <002901cd6157$037fab40$0a7f01c0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <20120713205335.dfucsbmu8kwck4s0@webmail.natasha.cc>

LOL ... i love you all.

Quoting spike <spike66 at att.net>:

>>
> From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
> [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Stefano Vaj

>
>>> Natasha flew to England to defend her dissertation last week.
>
>> I love such anglo-saxon archaisms, in Italy we merely *present* them, but
> this sounds much more, well, doctoral. :-) -- Stefano Vaj
>
> I disagree so much Stefano.  The more active verb "defend" is the right
> word, for it is much more wonderfully descriptive of the exhausting and
> rigorous process of getting the highly esteemed doctoral degree.  There is
> nothing passive about that course of study.  Over the years, requirement
> inflation has caused students to take longer and longer to achieve that
> level.
>
> Stanford for one of many such examples, has created a de facto coalition
> with the defense industry for voluntary slave labor reseachers from among
> the talented graduate students, in an arrangement that is clearly beneficial
> to Stanford and the biz, and arguably the student.  Arrangements are made
> for a pittance of a stipend, sufficient for survival but not for living in
> luxury.  Plenty of graduate students find they rather enjoy the intellectual
> stimulation and (ahem) *scenery* of campus life, and cheerfully accept the
> lifestyle restrictions, sometimes taking nearly a decade to finish the
> doctoral degree, displaying no great urgency to graduate.
>
> Still, when that time eventually arrives to defend that dissertation, the
> battle can be understandably fierce.  The number of PhDs awarded is
> necessarily kept low, and only the good ones will do.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>






From max at maxmore.com  Sat Jul 14 04:01:03 2012
From: max at maxmore.com (Max More)
Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2012 21:01:03 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Bryan Singer's anti-transhumanist webshow
Message-ID: <CAJX-7wUAOhJ7dq4khBzS_HMSTARdBk3S3ZFVGYa_x02OTxCJ+w@mail.gmail.com>

I've been hearing about this. Here's a clip:

http://io9.com/5925911/the-creepiest-footage-yet-from-bryan-singers-brain-implant-webseries-h%252B


--Max

-- 
Max More, PhD
Strategic Philosopher
Co-editor, *The Transhumanist Reader*
CEO, Alcor Life Extension Foundation
7895 E. Acoma Dr # 110
Scottsdale, AZ 85260
480/905-1906 ext 113
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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Sat Jul 14 11:26:26 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2012 13:26:26 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Natasha's brand new doctorate
In-Reply-To: <002901cd6157$037fab40$0a7f01c0$@att.net>
References: <CAJX-7wWAb5bevEQJDEEATKJAP48ADukw5VkgsqF+DxZ2FrGyiQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a6wVQ4XrjGi69wsgtTod2OPOTohOh1yBRvdWuxsr4hk6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <002901cd6157$037fab40$0a7f01c0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a7sW2q7bhXKPEn7rfq4uSvc_pnf_kJkMTzSEpsVLNgtrQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 14 July 2012 02:24, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

> I disagree so much Stefano.  The more active verb ?defend? is the right
> word, for it is much more wonderfully descriptive of the exhausting and
> rigorous process of getting the highly esteemed doctoral degree.
>

I was not being ironic, I fully agree. This is or should be the right word,
and it used to be the word in Bologna and Padua when  the first
universities were established. Being a "doctor" of something literally
involved having a thesis (at that time, it was just law or medicine) and
defending them successful from the challenge of your (future) peers, who
then were welcoming you in their ranks.

The lexical change in Italy reflects the fact that process is currently
perceived as too "adversarial", something which is pretty stupid.

Conversely, while research doctorates obviously exist, we do not have the
bachelor/bacellier/lizenz-master/maitrise/magister-doctor system, so that
after high school one engages in a four-five (six only for medicine)
course, you present a dissertation, and then you are called a doctor
anyway.

Strangely enough, in the Italian-Spanish system, "master" courses are
undertaken by people who are already doctors! An equivalent exists however
for jurists in the US, where law being a postgraduate thing, most law
schools make you not an LLB, but a JD, so that you get your LLM after your
JD degree, like in Italy,

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From spike66 at att.net  Sat Jul 14 15:13:49 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2012 08:13:49 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Natasha's brand new doctorate
In-Reply-To: <CAPoR7a7sW2q7bhXKPEn7rfq4uSvc_pnf_kJkMTzSEpsVLNgtrQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJX-7wWAb5bevEQJDEEATKJAP48ADukw5VkgsqF+DxZ2FrGyiQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a6wVQ4XrjGi69wsgtTod2OPOTohOh1yBRvdWuxsr4hk6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <002901cd6157$037fab40$0a7f01c0$@att.net>
 <CAPoR7a7sW2q7bhXKPEn7rfq4uSvc_pnf_kJkMTzSEpsVLNgtrQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <003501cd61d3$45974e30$d0c5ea90$@att.net>

 

 

> On Behalf Of Stefano Vaj
Subject: Re: [ExI] Natasha's brand new doctorate

 

On 14 July 2012 02:24, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

>>.I disagree so much Stefano.  The more active verb "defend" is the right
word, for it is much more wonderfully descriptive of the exhausting and
rigorous process of getting the highly esteemed doctoral degree.  


>.I was not being ironic, I fully agree.The lexical change in Italy reflects
the fact that process is currently perceived as too "adversarial", something
which is pretty stupid.  -- Stefano Vaj

 

 

Ja OK, cool thanks.  

 

We have a kind of attitude here in the states which seems to always be
trending away from all things adversarial, such as the notion that all kids
are winners, let's nurture their delicate self-esteem, etc.  I would contend
that everything everywhere and everywhen is adversarial, and must be, by
human nature.  Competition can be friendly; you can like the person or team
whose ass you are desperately struggling to whoop, no problem there.  I
cheerfully recommend it.  Be nice, be a sportsman, but whoop ass all the
same, in sport, academia and business.  

 

We live in a world and a time in which we no longer need to struggle for the
basics of survival; we do not encounter predators, we do not face
starvation, we are not exposed to nature's harsh elements.  We have evolved
to conquer all these kinds of challenges which suddenly all simultaneously
retreated under the attack of wonderfully stampeding technological advance.
So what do we do with all these evolutionary vestigial abilities to contend
with adversity?  We create rtificial adversity, such as video games and
sports, the professional striving to dominate her business competitors,
contrived (but singularly worthwhile) goals in academic achievement,
artificial battles in politics, to suggest a few good examples.  

 

All of these contrived artificial struggles are the things that cause us to
achieve personal and corporate excellence in a time when all our traditional
challenges suddenly went away faster than we could evolve to no longer need
them.

 

My proposal for our race: get rid of those artificial battles which are
physically dangerous: the kinds that involve military anything or any kind
of physical injury or serious death to anyone.  Keep and nurture the rest of
them, while inventing new and interesting challenges in which humans and
corporations may compete, the result of which is excellence for all and
superiority for some.

 

spike

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From msd001 at gmail.com  Sat Jul 14 16:03:45 2012
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2012 12:03:45 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Artificial Battles was Natasha's brand new doctorate
Message-ID: <CAOJFdbLpva-HMn4qFS4Pd48S1h==MpfHp7dKWnVhYLAZrzaBXA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Jul 14, 2012 at 11:13 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> My proposal for our race: get rid of those artificial battles which are
> physically dangerous: the kinds that involve military anything or any kind
> of physical injury or serious death to anyone.  Keep and nurture the rest of
> them, while inventing new and interesting challenges in which humans and
> corporations may compete, the result of which is excellence for all and
> superiority for some.

Have you never seen an infomercial?  These mind-penetrating jingles
and artificial gotta-have-it responses are masterful exploitation of
psychology and culture.  Sure you may be immune to the want/need for a
hand-puppet attached to a blanket*, but you are caught in the
crossfire when your child becomes infected with this meme.  Even if
you say "No" there are grandparents whose immunity [so strong when you
were a child] failed the moment your own kids arrived.

The marketing environment is producing arguably toxic levels of
competing memes.  I'm horrified and fascinated by where evolution will
take this trend.

*http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UFUwjvYtsU


From pharos at gmail.com  Sat Jul 14 16:19:39 2012
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2012 17:19:39 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Artificial Battles was Natasha's brand new doctorate
In-Reply-To: <CAOJFdbLpva-HMn4qFS4Pd48S1h==MpfHp7dKWnVhYLAZrzaBXA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOJFdbLpva-HMn4qFS4Pd48S1h==MpfHp7dKWnVhYLAZrzaBXA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armhgORzsdU1yuUa+uEGeqjShHULTm7w9pFPGep0VUKvPcw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Jul 14, 2012 at 5:03 PM, Mike Dougherty wrote:
> On Sat, Jul 14, 2012 at 11:13 AM, spike wrote:
>> My proposal for our race: get rid of those artificial battles which are
>> physically dangerous: the kinds that involve military anything or any kind
>> of physical injury or serious death to anyone.  Keep and nurture the rest of
>> them, while inventing new and interesting challenges in which humans and
>> corporations may compete, the result of which is excellence for all and
>> superiority for some.
>
> Have you never seen an infomercial?  These mind-penetrating jingles
> and artificial gotta-have-it responses are masterful exploitation of
> psychology and culture.  Sure you may be immune to the want/need for a
> hand-puppet attached to a blanket*, but you are caught in the
> crossfire when your child becomes infected with this meme.  Even if
> you say "No" there are grandparents whose immunity [so strong when you
> were a child] failed the moment your own kids arrived.
>
> The marketing environment is producing arguably toxic levels of
> competing memes.  I'm horrified and fascinated by where evolution will
> take this trend.
>
>

I find Spike's idea of fair and sportsmanlike competition rather
quaint and idealistic.

We are now living through the terrifying results of decades of fraud
and corruption.

That is the biggest challenge we face - getting fair competition
rather than ruthless greed and criminal scheming.


BillK


From msd001 at gmail.com  Sat Jul 14 16:35:47 2012
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2012 12:35:47 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Artificial Battles was Natasha's brand new doctorate
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armhgORzsdU1yuUa+uEGeqjShHULTm7w9pFPGep0VUKvPcw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOJFdbLpva-HMn4qFS4Pd48S1h==MpfHp7dKWnVhYLAZrzaBXA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armhgORzsdU1yuUa+uEGeqjShHULTm7w9pFPGep0VUKvPcw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOJFdbLOm8qeuNsq+pz-wnY+DVPfm8dAJYsLPQcXZok-FwoyOg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Jul 14, 2012 at 12:19 PM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:
> I find Spike's idea of fair and sportsmanlike competition rather
> quaint and idealistic.
>
> We are now living through the terrifying results of decades of fraud
> and corruption.
>
> That is the biggest challenge we face - getting fair competition
> rather than ruthless greed and criminal scheming.

I'm not sure I understand what "fair competition" even means.

Nature certainly provides a hostile environment wrt competition for
resources; a limited number of gazelles and a gazelle-limited number
of lions who compete as unfairly as they can with claws & fangs.

In our "civilized" version of primordial plains, it's better to be the
lion than the gazelle - but I can't imagine crying unfair when my
peers with the bigger teeth get a bigger share.  ...not that I have
any delusions of being a lion or even a gazelle.  I'll be honest and
suggest in the world today I'm hardly a fieldmouse.


From pharos at gmail.com  Sat Jul 14 17:02:29 2012
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2012 18:02:29 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Artificial Battles was Natasha's brand new doctorate
In-Reply-To: <CAOJFdbLOm8qeuNsq+pz-wnY+DVPfm8dAJYsLPQcXZok-FwoyOg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOJFdbLpva-HMn4qFS4Pd48S1h==MpfHp7dKWnVhYLAZrzaBXA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armhgORzsdU1yuUa+uEGeqjShHULTm7w9pFPGep0VUKvPcw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOJFdbLOm8qeuNsq+pz-wnY+DVPfm8dAJYsLPQcXZok-FwoyOg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armgHW4CgBuG7WNOBb5GgAtNAB-LgL7G1wJNUoL202fZ2jw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Jul 14, 2012 at 5:35 PM, Mike Dougherty wrote:
> I'm not sure I understand what "fair competition" even means.
>
> Nature certainly provides a hostile environment wrt competition for
> resources; a limited number of gazelles and a gazelle-limited number
> of lions who compete as unfairly as they can with claws & fangs.
>
> In our "civilized" version of primordial plains, it's better to be the
> lion than the gazelle - but I can't imagine crying unfair when my
> peers with the bigger teeth get a bigger share.  ...not that I have
> any delusions of being a lion or even a gazelle.  I'll be honest and
> suggest in the world today I'm hardly a fieldmouse.
>

Pleased to meet you. I've got some investment bonds to sell you that
are 'guaranteed' to treble your money in a year. Just sign here. Quick
now! This special deal will be gone by tomorrow!

The question is - Do we want a society where psychopaths are the great
successes?

<http://www.zerohedge.com/contributed/2012-07-14/why-don%E2%80%99t-corrupt-players-wall-street-and-dc-show-remorse-their-destructive-a>
Quotes:
Many bankers, regulators and politicians have been caught in lie after
lie and scandal after scandal.
Why haven't they been shamed by all of the disclosures about their
behavior, and chastised by the destruction their actions are causing?

We'll answer each of these questions one at a time.
Many of the People Running Wall Street and D.C. Are - LITERALLY - Psychopaths
---------------------
As we've repeatedly noted, psychopaths caused the financial crisis ?
and they will do it again and again unless they are removed from
power.
------------------
These "financial psychopaths" generally lack empathy and interest in
what other people feel or think. At the same time, they display an
abundance of charm, charisma, intelligence, credentials, an
unparalleled capacity for lying, fabrication, and manipulation, and a
drive for thrill seeking.
------------------------


Is that the 'successes' we, as a society, should be striving for?

BillK



From atymes at gmail.com  Sat Jul 14 16:24:33 2012
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2012 09:24:33 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Natasha's brand new doctorate
In-Reply-To: <003501cd61d3$45974e30$d0c5ea90$@att.net>
References: <CAJX-7wWAb5bevEQJDEEATKJAP48ADukw5VkgsqF+DxZ2FrGyiQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a6wVQ4XrjGi69wsgtTod2OPOTohOh1yBRvdWuxsr4hk6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <002901cd6157$037fab40$0a7f01c0$@att.net>
 <CAPoR7a7sW2q7bhXKPEn7rfq4uSvc_pnf_kJkMTzSEpsVLNgtrQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <003501cd61d3$45974e30$d0c5ea90$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNRKY2pFBpd0_FZpCfJFjRBz4iO7ufQYwFhvfxvmi=PRkw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Jul 14, 2012 at 8:13 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> My proposal for our race: get rid of those artificial battles which are
> physically dangerous: the kinds that involve military anything or any kind
> of physical injury or serious death to anyone.  Keep and nurture the rest of
> them, while inventing new and interesting challenges in which humans and
> corporations may compete, the result of which is excellence for all and
> superiority for some.

Military anything is intended to result in superiority for some.

As to getting rid of it - sure, them first.  Problem is, so long as there exists
a "them" who is unenlightened and wishes to seize power by military
means...well.  Old saying: "to ensure peace, prepare for war; to ensure war,
prepare only for peace".  Until and unless we change everyone's condition -
not just our own - this facet of human nature will remain.  It's like proposing
to do away with gravity.


From spike66 at att.net  Sat Jul 14 17:27:30 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2012 10:27:30 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Artificial Battles was Natasha's brand new doctorate
In-Reply-To: <CAOJFdbLpva-HMn4qFS4Pd48S1h==MpfHp7dKWnVhYLAZrzaBXA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOJFdbLpva-HMn4qFS4Pd48S1h==MpfHp7dKWnVhYLAZrzaBXA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <006001cd61e5$f30d69c0$d9283d40$@att.net>

>... On Behalf Of Mike Dougherty
Subject: [ExI] Artificial Battles was Natasha's brand new doctorate

On Sat, Jul 14, 2012 at 11:13 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>>... My proposal for our race: get rid of those artificial battles which 
> are physically dangerous: the kinds that involve military anything or 
> any kind of physical injury or serious death to anyone.  Keep and 
> nurture the rest of them, while inventing new and interesting 
> challenges in which humans and corporations may compete, the result of 
> which is excellence for all and superiority for some.

>...Have you never seen an infomercial?

Not in the past decade, but I know approximately what they are.

>...  These mind-penetrating jingles and artificial gotta-have-it responses
are masterful exploitation of psychology and culture...

Cool, a competition for mind-penetrating jingles!

>... but you are caught in the crossfire when your child becomes infected
with this meme...

How well I know.  Read on please.

>...  Even if you say "No" there are grandparents whose immunity [so strong
when you were a child] failed the moment your own kids arrived...

Oy, you understate your case Mike.  My son is now 6, the youngest of the
grandchildren, and the only grandchild for three of the six grandparents (my
parents split and remarried a long time ago.)  So it will come as no
surprise that my son ends up the recipient of piles and piles of toys and
clothes from older cousins as well as mind-numbing stacks of gifts from
grandparents, aunts, uncles, friends and colleagues.  He has no access to
commercial television after we turned off the cable four yrs ago (we weren't
using it, no point in paying for it.)  My son has few or no perceived needs,
but he gets piles of stuff from everywhere, so many toys he has no time to
play with so many of them.

This presents a new problem for me, since I grew up in a time when the
economics of scarcity were still very much in play.  I have a meme deeply
rooted which equates work with reward.  I can't quite convince myself that
the economics of scarcity is a completely outdated notion, so I am training
my son to work at things in exchange for rewards, but it is difficult to
reward him.  He has too much stuff already to the point he has no room for
more.  So what now?

>...The marketing environment is producing arguably toxic levels of
competing memes.  I'm horrified and fascinated by where evolution will take
this trend.   *http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UFUwjvYtsU   Mike

Ja me too.  I can't say I am horrified really.  I am old enough to remember
when Americans were involved in actual warfare, the kind which required the
physical presence of large numbers of involuntary participants.  This is
something which can justifiably cause us to be horrified.  Marketing?  Not
so much.  Mind control compelling proles to buy stuff they don't need?
Hmmm, I would use the adjective concerned rather than horrified.

spike





From msd001 at gmail.com  Sat Jul 14 17:49:48 2012
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2012 13:49:48 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Artificial Battles was Natasha's brand new doctorate
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armgHW4CgBuG7WNOBb5GgAtNAB-LgL7G1wJNUoL202fZ2jw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOJFdbLpva-HMn4qFS4Pd48S1h==MpfHp7dKWnVhYLAZrzaBXA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armhgORzsdU1yuUa+uEGeqjShHULTm7w9pFPGep0VUKvPcw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOJFdbLOm8qeuNsq+pz-wnY+DVPfm8dAJYsLPQcXZok-FwoyOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armgHW4CgBuG7WNOBb5GgAtNAB-LgL7G1wJNUoL202fZ2jw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOJFdb+gn8qmo4smFjMyzikAJLGdgy6C96WMbi11D5Nxc10-rw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Jul 14, 2012 at 1:02 PM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:
> Many of the People Running Wall Street and D.C. Are - LITERALLY - Psychopaths
> ---------------------
> As we've repeatedly noted, psychopaths caused the financial crisis ?
> and they will do it again and again unless they are removed from
> power.
> ------------------
>
> Is that the 'successes' we, as a society, should be striving for?

Hmm... not exactly what I meant.  I don't strive to out-psycho the
dominant psychopaths.  I proposed dealing with them as a feature of
the landscape rather than demanding the landscape be made level in
order to be "fair."



From spike66 at att.net  Sat Jul 14 17:37:56 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2012 10:37:56 -0700
Subject: [ExI] self-driving cars again
Message-ID: <006d01cd61e7$67be5940$373b0bc0$@att.net>

 

Slate ran a short article on a feature of auto-autos that I had thought of,
but they take it a step further.  The software will drive only at the legal
speed limit.  I doubt they will program them to go faster.  I went a
different direction than Slate.  I reasoned that if auto^2s will only go the
speed limit tops always, this obviates the need for capability of going
faster.  I took the typical mechanical engineers approach: speed limits are
very low compared to even slow cars, so we can save a lot of weight in
drivetrain and structure, as well as simplifying the control software and
hardware.

 

Slate went off in a different direction.  They reason that when auto^2s hit
the market, they will be expensive, and so they will be for rich people, and
rich people don't want to poke along at the legal speed limit which wastes
time and has its own risks: it blocks traffic.  The human occupants run the
risk of being shot by irate human drivers stuck behind the reprehensible
copulating couple in the auto^2.  

 

Slate reasons this is a show stopper for auto^2s: they only go the speed
limit always, and no one wants to go that slow:

 

http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense/2012/07/13/eric_schmidt_on_self_driv
ing_cars_biggest_problem_they_obey_speed_limits.html

spike

 

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From pharos at gmail.com  Sat Jul 14 18:07:14 2012
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2012 19:07:14 +0100
Subject: [ExI] self-driving cars again
In-Reply-To: <006d01cd61e7$67be5940$373b0bc0$@att.net>
References: <006d01cd61e7$67be5940$373b0bc0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAL_armhbdyNeykbNhE=zSpa3tE958837sqBvFMEV1OGetpZ3qg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Jul 14, 2012 at 6:37 PM, spike  wrote:
> Slate ran a short article on a feature of auto-autos that I had thought of,
> but they take it a step further.  The software will drive only at the legal
> speed limit.  I doubt they will program them to go faster.  I went a
> different direction than Slate.  I reasoned that if auto^2s will only go the
> speed limit tops always, this obviates the need for capability of going
> faster.  I took the typical mechanical engineers approach: speed limits are
> very low compared to even slow cars, so we can save a lot of weight in
> drivetrain and structure, as well as simplifying the control software and
> hardware.
>
> Slate went off in a different direction.  They reason that when auto^2s hit
> the market, they will be expensive, and so they will be for rich people, and
> rich people don?t want to poke along at the legal speed limit which wastes
> time and has its own risks: it blocks traffic.  The human occupants run the
> risk of being shot by irate human drivers stuck behind the reprehensible
> copulating couple in the auto^2.
>
> Slate reasons this is a show stopper for auto^2s: they only go the speed
> limit always, and no one wants to go that slow:
>


Another article I read referenced this article and took another view.
They agreed that initially these cars will be for rich people. So the
rich people, as usual, will either ignore the laws or get the laws
changed to suit themselves. They will tune the cars to go as fast as
is safe, depending on the conditions, and probably just treat the
speeding fines as a business expense.
Alternatively, they will get their tame senators to create special
lanes for these cars. So when you are stuck in the traffic, the
masters of the universe will be hurtling past at 200 mph.


BillK



From msd001 at gmail.com  Sat Jul 14 18:16:40 2012
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2012 14:16:40 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Artificial Battles was Natasha's brand new doctorate
In-Reply-To: <006001cd61e5$f30d69c0$d9283d40$@att.net>
References: <CAOJFdbLpva-HMn4qFS4Pd48S1h==MpfHp7dKWnVhYLAZrzaBXA@mail.gmail.com>
 <006001cd61e5$f30d69c0$d9283d40$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAOJFdbKWZLY++AW-Gkby79SpBD5=oKfSdzSvuNgo0a-g23Srdg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Jul 14, 2012 at 1:27 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> Oy, you understate your case Mike.  My son is now 6, the youngest of the
> grandchildren, and the only grandchild for three of the six grandparents (my
>
> rooted which equates work with reward.  I can't quite convince myself that
> the economics of scarcity is a completely outdated notion, so I am training
> my son to work at things in exchange for rewards, but it is difficult to
> reward him.  He has too much stuff already to the point he has no room for
> more.  So what now?

My own childhood's scarcity taught me conservation.  I'm sure you've
already made your son aware (to the degree a 6 year old can be) that
energy is still a finite resource - even while material goods seem
unlimited.  The other reward I remember (and appreciated) from my
childhood was responsibility.  Earning trust and proving
responsibility is still difficult even in a post-scarcity environment.
 If your son learns how to do so at a young age, it'll make him more
successful in pretty much every context where success is measurable.
Of course, my opinion comes only from having been a child not from
having any of my own.  :)


> Ja me too.  I can't say I am horrified really.  I am old enough to remember
> when Americans were involved in actual warfare, the kind which required the
> physical presence of large numbers of involuntary participants.  This is
> something which can justifiably cause us to be horrified.  Marketing?  Not
> so much.  Mind control compelling proles to buy stuff they don't need?
> Hmmm, I would use the adjective concerned rather than horrified.

fair enough.  I have been fortunate to be shielded from true horrors
of war & warfare.  I was imagining the dystopian future when the trend
of insidious memeplexes dictate mass behavior.  Wait, maybe that's
not-so-future.  dunno.  Horrified may be too much hyperbole compared
with actual warfare atrocities but I definitely wanted a word stronger
than concerned.  Let's call it "doubleplusconcerned" with the
intention that a reference to newspeak conveys the right tone,
especialy wrt Proles.


From natasha at natasha.cc  Sat Jul 14 17:59:48 2012
From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More)
Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2012 12:59:48 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Artificial Battles
In-Reply-To: <CAOJFdbLpva-HMn4qFS4Pd48S1h==MpfHp7dKWnVhYLAZrzaBXA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOJFdbLpva-HMn4qFS4Pd48S1h==MpfHp7dKWnVhYLAZrzaBXA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00e601cd61ea$75f6c300$61e44900$@cc>

Please remove my name from this thread!

Thank you.

Natasha


-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Mike Dougherty
Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2012 11:04 AM
To: ExI chat list
Subject: [ExI] Artificial Battles was Natasha's brand new doctorate

On Sat, Jul 14, 2012 at 11:13 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> My proposal for our race: get rid of those artificial battles which 
> are physically dangerous: the kinds that involve military anything or 
> any kind of physical injury or serious death to anyone.  Keep and 
> nurture the rest of them, while inventing new and interesting 
> challenges in which humans and corporations may compete, the result of 
> which is excellence for all and superiority for some.

Have you never seen an infomercial?  These mind-penetrating jingles and
artificial gotta-have-it responses are masterful exploitation of psychology
and culture.  Sure you may be immune to the want/need for a hand-puppet
attached to a blanket*, but you are caught in the crossfire when your child
becomes infected with this meme.  Even if you say "No" there are
grandparents whose immunity [so strong when you were a child] failed the
moment your own kids arrived.

The marketing environment is producing arguably toxic levels of competing
memes.  I'm horrified and fascinated by where evolution will take this
trend.

*http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UFUwjvYtsU
_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat



From spike66 at att.net  Sat Jul 14 20:47:04 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2012 13:47:04 -0700
Subject: [ExI] subeject line discipline, was:  RE:  ... brand new doctorate
Message-ID: <001a01cd6201$d41e7e70$7c5b7b50$@att.net>



As is the custom, the current thread has wandered far from the topic of
Natasha's degree.  Most of the time it doesn't matter much, but when a
person's name is in the subject line, then subject line discipline matters,
thanks.  

spike



From kellycoinguy at gmail.com  Sat Jul 14 21:30:15 2012
From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2012 15:30:15 -0600
Subject: [ExI] self-driving cars again
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armhbdyNeykbNhE=zSpa3tE958837sqBvFMEV1OGetpZ3qg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <006d01cd61e7$67be5940$373b0bc0$@att.net>
 <CAL_armhbdyNeykbNhE=zSpa3tE958837sqBvFMEV1OGetpZ3qg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPy8RwbRq0+EC+_pbiJNxKrbtwiDnLnc2P7FMwH1LWt8hPZ_XQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Jul 14, 2012 at 12:07 PM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Slate reasons this is a show stopper for auto^2s: they only go the speed
>> limit always, and no one wants to go that slow:

I don't see why they should not go faster than people...

> Another article I read referenced this article and took another view.
> They agreed that initially these cars will be for rich people. So the
> rich people, as usual, will either ignore the laws or get the laws
> changed to suit themselves. They will tune the cars to go as fast as
> is safe, depending on the conditions, and probably just treat the
> speeding fines as a business expense.
> Alternatively, they will get their tame senators to create special
> lanes for these cars. So when you are stuck in the traffic, the
> masters of the universe will be hurtling past at 200 mph.

I agree with Bill here.. I think the auto-autos will go much faster,
though 200 mph might be a bit of an overstatement. The government will
have self interest to make auto-autos popular because they mean less
road maintenance and construction because more cars can use the same
amount of pavement safely. It seems unlikely to me that the government
will force auto-autos to go the speed limit for this reason.

The Nevada law doesn't go into the details of whether an autonomous
vehicle needs to obey the speed limit.
http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/50leg/2r/bills/hb2679p.htm
As laws go, this one is pretty simple... basically a one liner.

-Kelly


From kellycoinguy at gmail.com  Sat Jul 14 21:37:01 2012
From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2012 15:37:01 -0600
Subject: [ExI] First PhD to an AGI
Message-ID: <CAPy8RwYZy37bhtOoDKiCC4U45V-DtWZkV_tXD=eX677vH9eK_g@mail.gmail.com>

With our newly minted doctor in residence, the question occurs to me
as to when you think an accredited university will first award a
doctorate degree to an artificial intelligence? Anyone want to put
their bet into the pool as to when that might occur?

I'll go first, I'm guessing 2035.

-Kelly


From brent.allsop at canonizer.com  Sat Jul 14 21:26:49 2012
From: brent.allsop at canonizer.com (Brent Allsop)
Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2012 15:26:49 -0600
Subject: [ExI] =?windows-1252?q?Currently_leading_=93qualia=94_camp_attack?=
 =?windows-1252?q?ing_Dennett=92s_=93mistake=94=2E?=
Message-ID: <5001E419.8050406@canonizer.com>


Open letter to Dr.s Daniel Dennett and Keith Frankish,

There is a new emerging camp, at Canonizer.com, very supportive of 
Daniel Dennett?s ideas about consciousness currently being called 
Representational Functionalism (current camp: 
http://canonizer.com/topic.asp/88/18).  Despite rapid achievement of 
some significant consensus for this new camp, at that level, it still 
lags behind the leading expert consensus Property Dualism camp (current 
camp: http://canonizer.com/topic.asp/88/19 ).

In response to the theoretically revolutionary success of this new 
emerging camp, the experts supporting the currently leading ?classic 
qualia? property dualism camp are working to canonize a new version of 
their camp statement containing a significant attack against this 
upstart.  This attack is against the ?mistake? most often attributed to 
Daniel Dennett, when people claim we don?t have qualia "it just seems 
like we do." [Consciousness Explained P. 375].

The experts in this upstart camp, in response to this pending attack, 
have proposed that Daniel Dennett doesn?t mean that we don't have some 
subjective experiences.  It would be tautologically false to say,  "We 
don't have the experiences that we seem to have, we just seem to have 
them."  Instead, they suggest that Dennett is saying something like "we 
don't have experiences that have any magical properties beyond the 
causal structure and dynamics of physics, it just seems like we do."

Is this response being taken by this upstart camp the best consensus 
thinking by the most experts?  How many other experts are there that 
think this is a completely inadequate response, for the reasons being 
given in the newly proposed Property Dualism statement containing this 
attack?  Is this really a mistake?  Are there any other better ways to 
think about this issue out there, and how much consensus might there be 
for such?  Both camps would like to know, what Dr. Dennett, and others 
in this camp thinks, so we can avoid this kind of speculation in any 
statements that end up making it through the canonization process.

This is an open letter in that we are seeking to survey for what 
everyone thinks on this issue.  How many people will be in the camp 
Dennett will ultimately end up in, before he ends up there, after all 
the arguments and science are said and done?

The new version of Property Dualism camp, and related sub camp 
statements, containing this attack are being collaboratively developed 
by everyone in a wiki way on Google docs, to eventually be 'canonized' 
once finalized by everyone in their respective camps. We invite any and 
everyone to help improve this process, whatever your current working 
hypothesis is regarding consciousness.  Here are the links to the 
proposed drafts of the new Goggle doc statements containing this attack:

?    Property Dualism 
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1gginaif0YTvDVSwFF7V_wRei-SDZlelt0LPIc5I_gD8/edit
?    Material Property Dualism 
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dogSoCsouz2RhQ-CTNjtnYJ8Xr6JILNDki5Kn_met_o/edit
?    Macro Material Property Dualism 
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1V03WBMSY5cKf97NoM6KPZSKtxEEHg5MZJfb6FPq0Ui0/edit

As always, the goal of this open survey process is to amplify everyone's 
wisdom with significantly improved communication by collaboratively 
developing concise descriptions of the best theories of consciousness, 
building consensus around such, and rigorously tracking how much 
consensus there is for each, as we approach what could turn out to be 
the greatest and most consensus building scientific discovery of all 
time.  It appears there may already be much more consensus than anyone 
realizes.

   Brent Allsop
   Volunteer Consciousness Survey Project




From anders at aleph.se  Sun Jul 15 00:18:42 2012
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2012 01:18:42 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Artificial Battles
In-Reply-To: <CAOJFdbLOm8qeuNsq+pz-wnY+DVPfm8dAJYsLPQcXZok-FwoyOg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOJFdbLpva-HMn4qFS4Pd48S1h==MpfHp7dKWnVhYLAZrzaBXA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armhgORzsdU1yuUa+uEGeqjShHULTm7w9pFPGep0VUKvPcw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOJFdbLOm8qeuNsq+pz-wnY+DVPfm8dAJYsLPQcXZok-FwoyOg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <50020C62.7030304@aleph.se>

In Sweden you also have a real thesis defense, where not only a board of 
professors judge the dissertation and your explanations, but an opponent 
who at least in theory will try to ask hard questions. Of course, this 
being modern Sweden, this is not too adversarial - you don't go up for a 
defense unless you have a sufficiently good thesis, and the opponent 
usually doesn't go for the jugular. Back in the day it could be far more 
tough, and in the old system you also had a "second opponent" to give 
you help and sometimes a "third opponent" to make jokes to keep people 
awake (kid you not).

There is something relevant here: in order to bring out quality, you 
need not just encouragement but also honest criticism - especially of 
important weak points. And that requires somebody who has incentives to 
be honest and cut to the bone, not just keep people happy. Security is 
best tested by red teams who actually try to break it, science is 
advanced by people testing theories to the breaking point.

The problem is the incentive structure. Most bosses do not like being 
shown their mistakes by red teams, and academics will often build 
strange coalitions to review papers nicely. The institutional frameworks 
we build should be aware of *why* they are supposed to reward artificial 
battles, so that they can try to avoid accidentally rewarding the wrong 
behavior.

Markets are typically not *intended* to produce innovation and 
efficiency, it is just that they tend to do it under a range of 
circumstances. We can set up institutions to favor beneficial 
competition (patents, SEC, antitrust regulations, etc), but again these 
institutions need to be kept on the track. That in turn requires further 
criticism and artificial battles - and hence other institutions. It is 
checks and balances all the way down.

As for academia, I wonder if we shouldn't have a duty to act as 
wandering opponents who show up unnanounced at random offices and ask 
pertinent questions from time to time. Eric Drexler has suggested that 
we might have a "duty to respond" to claims we hear, making sure that 
each intellectual encounter leaves a bit of logged trace data.

-- 
Anders Sandberg,
Future of Humanity Institute
Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University



From anders at aleph.se  Sun Jul 15 00:24:03 2012
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2012 01:24:03 +0100
Subject: [ExI] First PhD to an AGI
In-Reply-To: <CAPy8RwYZy37bhtOoDKiCC4U45V-DtWZkV_tXD=eX677vH9eK_g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPy8RwYZy37bhtOoDKiCC4U45V-DtWZkV_tXD=eX677vH9eK_g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <50020DA3.8050008@aleph.se>

On 14/07/2012 22:37, Kelly Anderson wrote:
> With our newly minted doctor in residence, the question occurs to me
> as to when you think an accredited university will first award a
> doctorate degree to an artificial intelligence? Anyone want to put
> their bet into the pool as to when that might occur?

There are two kinds of cases: 1) a "joke" or honorary doctorate assigned 
to some software as a publicity stunt, and 2) a serious doctorate due to 
a real academic accomplishment.

Type 1 is not too unlikely in the near future as some minor university 
desperately want to court publicity and pretends to give it. I would 
guess sometime by 2020 or so, but it could happen tomorrow - there are 
robot scientists now after all.

Type 2 is trickier: doctorates are legal claims, and in most countries I 
think you need to be a legal person to get one. So then the question 
becomes when you think AGIs will be legal persons somewhere. I suspect 
it will take a while even after AGI arrives - any sane legal system 
would be cautious about software persons.


-- 
Anders Sandberg,
Future of Humanity Institute
Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University



From spike66 at att.net  Sun Jul 15 04:23:00 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2012 21:23:00 -0700
Subject: [ExI] self-driving cars again
In-Reply-To: <CAPy8RwbRq0+EC+_pbiJNxKrbtwiDnLnc2P7FMwH1LWt8hPZ_XQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <006d01cd61e7$67be5940$373b0bc0$@att.net>
 <CAL_armhbdyNeykbNhE=zSpa3tE958837sqBvFMEV1OGetpZ3qg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPy8RwbRq0+EC+_pbiJNxKrbtwiDnLnc2P7FMwH1LWt8hPZ_XQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <006001cd6241$858f26c0$90ad7440$@att.net>


>... On Behalf Of Kelly Anderson
Subject: Re: [ExI] self-driving cars again

On Sat, Jul 14, 2012 at 12:07 PM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Slate reasons this is a show stopper for auto^2s: they only go the 
>> speed limit always, and no one wants to go that slow:

>...I don't see why they should not go faster than people...

Besides the still-unsolved problems of legal liability, note that the
difficulty of the control problem posed by auto^2 scales by a function far
more complicated than any known polynomial relationship to the speed.  Some
form of auto^2 existed back in the mid 80s.  When I was up on the range at
China Lake setting up for an astronomical observation, there were marines
out there with an automated jeep.  It was going about walking speed.  Twenty
years later, I was at the first DARPA challenge, where about thirty entrants
attempted to herd their auto^2s over a desert road at an average speed of 20
mph.  All failed, every one.

I would argue that it might eventually be possible to go really fast with
auto^2, but the problem is vastly more difficult than it sounds.  There are
a large number of effects that can be ignored completely at small speeds,
but which increase dramatically with speed.

Thune is offering a free class through Udacity on programming auto^2s.
Check it out.

>> ... So when you are stuck in the traffic, the masters of the universe
will be hurtling past at 200 mph.

>...I agree with Bill here.. I think the auto-autos will go much faster,
though 200 mph might be a bit of an overstatement. -Kelly

I can easily imagine it taking a full decade of proofing before auto^2s are
allowed to go faster than the current speed limits, and even then, I can
imagine they wouldn't do it because of the challenges of interacting with
carbon based drivers.

Here's what I expect to see very soon: robot racing, probably on a dirt oval
flat track.  That would be a really cool control problem to try to solve.
In flat track, the cars actually have their wheels turned right while they
go left: the back end is splayed outboard and the wheels spinning.  I can
imagine something like half scale sprint cars:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gyWwSG5a5gk

so the cars would be about 100 pound affairs with 500cc single cylinder
motorcycle engines for instance, and could be built for about a couple
thousand dollars, not including the cost of the software and sensors.  That
will be a really fun sport to watch.  I predict some form of robot racing
will show up in the next five years.

spike



From pharos at gmail.com  Sun Jul 15 06:28:00 2012
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2012 07:28:00 +0100
Subject: [ExI] self-driving cars again
In-Reply-To: <006001cd6241$858f26c0$90ad7440$@att.net>
References: <006d01cd61e7$67be5940$373b0bc0$@att.net>
 <CAL_armhbdyNeykbNhE=zSpa3tE958837sqBvFMEV1OGetpZ3qg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPy8RwbRq0+EC+_pbiJNxKrbtwiDnLnc2P7FMwH1LWt8hPZ_XQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <006001cd6241$858f26c0$90ad7440$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAL_armgT-f7NRk7xwuhxjM82270zjcV-U2DZf_DqO-Fw-9KyvA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jul 15, 2012 at 5:23 AM, spike wrote:
> I would argue that it might eventually be possible to go really fast with
> auto^2, but the problem is vastly more difficult than it sounds.  There are
> a large number of effects that can be ignored completely at small speeds,
> but which increase dramatically with speed.
>
> Thune is offering a free class through Udacity on programming auto^2s.
> Check it out.
>

They had a robot car racing up Pikes Peak. Time trial, though. And so
far still slower than the best humans. But still quite a respectable
performance. Robot cars can do drifting now.


> I can easily imagine it taking a full decade of proofing before auto^2s are
> allowed to go faster than the current speed limits, and even then, I can
> imagine they wouldn't do it because of the challenges of interacting with
> carbon based drivers.
>
>

If robot drivers have to keep to speed limits, then public transport
becomes a bit more cost effective if you have a robot driver in the
bus. Perhaps even electric buses for real economy. You could have
fleets of buses continually driving around. Smaller mini buses on the
less busy routes. Perhaps you wouldn't even need bus stops. They could
pickup and set down anywhere on the route, selected by passengers.



BillK


From kryonica at gmail.com  Sun Jul 15 08:39:18 2012
From: kryonica at gmail.com (Kryonica)
Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2012 09:39:18 +0100
Subject: [ExI] First PhD to an AGI
In-Reply-To: <CAPy8RwYZy37bhtOoDKiCC4U45V-DtWZkV_tXD=eX677vH9eK_g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPy8RwYZy37bhtOoDKiCC4U45V-DtWZkV_tXD=eX677vH9eK_g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3F14121D-92AD-4627-97E5-7416C6BBC426@gmail.com>


On 14 Jul 2012, at 22:37, Kelly Anderson wrote:

> With our newly minted doctor in residence, the question occurs to me
> as to when you think an accredited university will first award a
> doctorate degree to an artificial intelligence? Anyone want to put
> their bet into the pool as to when that might occur?
> 
> I'll go first, I'm guessing 2035.

Later than that because academics will fear the competition in a world in which the ONLY thing that distinguishes them from their cleverer AI competitors is a piece of paper with "Ph D" printed on it.  So how long will it take them to give in?  For computer scientists and mathematicians, perhaps not that long because their fear will be overcome by their admiration for their own brainchildren.  For people working in the humanities, much longer.  Say 2050 for computer science and 2070 for English or History.  And I think the first Ph D in Theology awarded an AI will only be so after a long fight with the Vatican and only once the pope himself is a cyborg.  Say 2250 or thereabout, judging from how long it took the Church to come to terms with the theory of evolution.
> 
> -Kelly
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat




From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Sun Jul 15 09:39:36 2012
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2012 02:39:36 -0700
Subject: [ExI] First PhD to an AGI
In-Reply-To: <3F14121D-92AD-4627-97E5-7416C6BBC426@gmail.com>
References: <CAPy8RwYZy37bhtOoDKiCC4U45V-DtWZkV_tXD=eX677vH9eK_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <3F14121D-92AD-4627-97E5-7416C6BBC426@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy2+Sdxm-h+mhJWALB+RW5EA=YiLHvVkHvHK73h-vex+Wg@mail.gmail.com>

 Kryonica wrote:

>  Later than that because academics will fear the competition in a world
> in which the ONLY thing that distinguishes them from their cleverer AI
> competitors is a piece of paper with "Ph D" printed on it.  So how long
> will it take them to give in?  For computer scientists and mathematicians,
> perhaps not that long because their fear will be overcome by their
> admiration for their own brainchildren.  For people working in the
> humanities, much longer.  Say 2050 for computer science and 2070 for
> English or History.  And I think the first Ph D in Theology awarded an AI
> will only be so after a long fight with the Vatican and only once the pope
> himself is a cyborg.  Say 2250 or thereabout, judging from how long it took
> the Church to come to terms with the theory of evolution.
>


I agree with your timeline, for the same reasons that you list.  But I
think once the field is wide open for AI to earn any sort of
advanced degree, we will see AI's earning PhD's at the rate Boy Scouts earn
merit badges! lol  I could envision a decade old AI in the late 21st
century, literally having dozens or even hundreds of PhD's.  And so even if
they do not wipe out humanity, they may still patronize us with their
academic prowess.


This of course opens up the discussion as to whether AI could be
truly patronizing to humans...  ; )


John
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From fortean1 at mindspring.com  Sun Jul 15 00:50:32 2012
From: fortean1 at mindspring.com (Terry W. Colvin)
Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2012 17:50:32 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [ExI] FW.....Journal Collection
Message-ID: <25081359.1342313432581.JavaMail.root@mswamui-bichon.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

[forteana] Journal Collection
Date: Jul 14, 2012 10:53 AM

HI folks!

Although time generally permits me only the chance to lurk and observe the list from afar, I have the opportunity to make a meager offering to the List.

Having been involved in paranormal and Fortean research for longer than I care to think, here's a little something you may enjoy. 

Scott Colborn and I began and directed The Fortean Research Center (FRC) ? based in Lincoln Nebraska ? from 1982 until 1995. At its peak, the FRC boasted about 250 members worldwide, and gained national attention by hosting three international conferences. The FRC's radio program, Exploring Unexplained Phenomena, has been airing weekly since 1985 on Lincoln radio station, KZUM, 89.3 FM.

If you go to the link below, you will be able to download a reduced-resolution file of the entire collection of the Journal of the Fortean Research Center, a little over 630 pages of material. Two potential cover versions are included in the file, one of which will be utilized in a hard copy version.

I plan on making a print version available through Lulu.com, so please, give me your vote on which front cover you prefer. 

A full-resolution PDF version will also be available, but at 950+ megabytes, I'm working out the best way to keep high-resolution and reasonable file size. As soon as I determine the best delivery system, the high-resolution version will also be available.

But for now (through Friday July 27), you can download the collection free of charge at the following link.


The file 'Complete reduced-size Journal.pdf' (70.2 MB) is available for download at

<http://dropbox.unl.edu/uploads/20120727/77466e16d3add9ba/1st%20Complete%20reduced-size%20PDF.pdf >
for the next 14 days.

It will be removed after Friday, July 27, 2012.

Enjoy, and feel free to let me know your cover preference offline!

Ray


Terry W. Colvin

Tucson, Arizona ( 10 June to 13 August 2012 )



From kellycoinguy at gmail.com  Sun Jul 15 15:26:14 2012
From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2012 09:26:14 -0600
Subject: [ExI] First PhD to an AGI
In-Reply-To: <3F14121D-92AD-4627-97E5-7416C6BBC426@gmail.com>
References: <CAPy8RwYZy37bhtOoDKiCC4U45V-DtWZkV_tXD=eX677vH9eK_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <3F14121D-92AD-4627-97E5-7416C6BBC426@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPy8RwZYAZmgAR=AhksT6CBLsp8vHjKuZv0Dhd1STHKaZLPr7Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jul 15, 2012 at 2:39 AM, Kryonica <kryonica at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 14 Jul 2012, at 22:37, Kelly Anderson wrote:
>
>> I'll go first, I'm guessing 2035.
>
> Later than that because academics will fear the competition in a world in
> which the ONLY thing that distinguishes them from their cleverer AI competitors
> is a piece of paper with "Ph D" printed on it.

But academics are not the only game in town on college campuses. There
are also administrators. And somewhere, some administrator is going to
say, "This is a way we can compete, stand out, be different than
everyone else out there"... And it will happen over the objection of
academics because of the business of keeping some college open. One
would assume that AGIs would have money to pay for a degree, how is
the administration going to say no to that money everywhere?

> So how long will it take them to give in?  For computer scientists and
> mathematicians, perhaps not that long because their fear will be
> overcome by their admiration for their own brainchildren.  For people
> working in the humanities, much longer.  Say 2050 for computer science
> and 2070 for English or History.

Thanks for putting a stick in the ground!

> And I think the first Ph D in Theology
> awarded an AI will only be so after a long fight with the Vatican and only
> once the pope himself is a cyborg.  Say 2250 or thereabout, judging from
> how long it took the Church to come to terms with the theory of evolution.

While I agree with you that it will take longer for religions to catch
on than other parts of society, the pope being a cyborg is difficult
to imagine, but probably inevitable. Unless the Catholic church joins
(or temporarily joins) the group of churches that reject post humanity
like they were Amish.

-Kelly


From kellycoinguy at gmail.com  Sun Jul 15 15:30:12 2012
From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2012 09:30:12 -0600
Subject: [ExI] First PhD to an AGI
In-Reply-To: <CAGSKFy2+Sdxm-h+mhJWALB+RW5EA=YiLHvVkHvHK73h-vex+Wg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPy8RwYZy37bhtOoDKiCC4U45V-DtWZkV_tXD=eX677vH9eK_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <3F14121D-92AD-4627-97E5-7416C6BBC426@gmail.com>
 <CAGSKFy2+Sdxm-h+mhJWALB+RW5EA=YiLHvVkHvHK73h-vex+Wg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPy8Rwbv63wJov5Zft+AkEkqPqZ_yfzMR5xW7s8dr5AaSj0OhA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jul 15, 2012 at 3:39 AM, John Grigg <possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Kryonica wrote:
> I agree with your timeline, for the same reasons that you list.  But I think
> once the field is wide open for AI to earn any sort of advanced degree, we
> will see AI's earning PhD's at the rate Boy Scouts earn merit badges!

Especially if the courses are taught by other AGIs, which might happen
first... already seeing the beginnings of that now.

> lol  I
> could envision a decade old AI in the late 21st century, literally having
> dozens or even hundreds of PhD's.  And so even if they do not wipe out
> humanity, they may still patronize us with their academic prowess.

I'd hate to have to compete intellectually with that, of course.

> This of course opens up the discussion as to whether AI could be truly
> patronizing to humans...  ; )

Whether they are patronizing or not, we will FEEL as though they are
patronizing. Don't you feel like Google sometimes comes across as just
a wee bit patronizing now? Oh, you want THAT answer, well here's THAT
answer moron!!! Aww... I feel like a dumb ass now...

-Kelly


From kellycoinguy at gmail.com  Sun Jul 15 15:50:28 2012
From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2012 09:50:28 -0600
Subject: [ExI] self-driving cars again
In-Reply-To: <006001cd6241$858f26c0$90ad7440$@att.net>
References: <006d01cd61e7$67be5940$373b0bc0$@att.net>
 <CAL_armhbdyNeykbNhE=zSpa3tE958837sqBvFMEV1OGetpZ3qg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPy8RwbRq0+EC+_pbiJNxKrbtwiDnLnc2P7FMwH1LWt8hPZ_XQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <006001cd6241$858f26c0$90ad7440$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAPy8RwbV+r1FC1nhRmjBFStCJCQbJ0_oNpJR7eVCY6efbfAbug@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Jul 14, 2012 at 10:23 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>>... On Behalf Of Kelly Anderson
> Subject: Re: [ExI] self-driving cars again
>
> On Sat, Jul 14, 2012 at 12:07 PM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Slate reasons this is a show stopper for auto^2s: they only go the
>>> speed limit always, and no one wants to go that slow:
>
>>...I don't see why they should not go faster than people...
>
> Besides the still-unsolved problems of legal liability,

Granted.

> note that the
> difficulty of the control problem posed by auto^2 scales by a function far
> more complicated than any known polynomial relationship to the speed.

Yes, that is somewhat the case... but I don't think it's exponentially
more difficult.

> Some
> form of auto^2 existed back in the mid 80s.  When I was up on the range at
> China Lake setting up for an astronomical observation, there were marines
> out there with an automated jeep.  It was going about walking speed.

In the mid 80s (which was the last time I did any work with software
relating to autonomous vehicles, and damn little then) the primary
problem relating to what works today is that we didn't have distance
maps. In today's autonomous world, you have hardware similar to the
Kinect (in functionality, not implementation) that gives you R,G,B and
distance for every pixel. Back in the mid 80s, we were deriving depth
images from binocular vision using optical flow and other
computationally expensive techniques. We still can't really do
binocular vision (it's not really a completely solvable problem
mathematically for various reasons) but we now have depth maps from
hardware.

> Twenty
> years later, I was at the first DARPA challenge, where about thirty entrants
> attempted to herd their auto^2s over a desert road at an average speed of 20
> mph.  All failed, every one.

And this was primarily a function of software that was solved the very
next year when I believe three teams finished. That was in 2005. Now
the software in 2012 is pretty good, at least Google's version of the
software. Thune and probably a lot of the same algorithms as the
Stanford "Stanley" Darpa challenge teams. (Wasn't he one of the guys
teaching that AI course last fall too?)

> I would argue that it might eventually be possible to go really fast with
> auto^2, but the problem is vastly more difficult than it sounds.  There are
> a large number of effects that can be ignored completely at small speeds,
> but which increase dramatically with speed.

While I don't disagree, flowing with traffic also has it's advantages.
If the speed limit is 55, and everyone else is going 65, you have more
difficulty computing how to drive at 55 than 65 because you can't as
easily follow traffic when it is flowing around you. Locking onto the
car ahead of you is a simple enough trick that it would work most of
the time as a default mechanism. It's what people do for the most
part.

> Thune is offering a free class through Udacity on programming auto^2s.
> Check it out.

I will. Fun! If I do that course, then I'll really be able to know
better how it all works today... in more detail.

>>> ... So when you are stuck in the traffic, the masters of the universe
> will be hurtling past at 200 mph.
>
>>...I agree with Bill here.. I think the auto-autos will go much faster,
> though 200 mph might be a bit of an overstatement. -Kelly
>
> I can easily imagine it taking a full decade of proofing before auto^2s are
> allowed to go faster than the current speed limits, and even then, I can
> imagine they wouldn't do it because of the challenges of interacting with
> carbon based drivers.

Once most of the carbon based drivers are gone... then all bets are
off... though you'll always have to deal with older generations of
autonomous cars too.

> Here's what I expect to see very soon: robot racing, probably on a dirt oval
> flat track.  That would be a really cool control problem to try to solve.

I agree that this could happen really fast.

> In flat track, the cars actually have their wheels turned right while they
> go left: the back end is splayed outboard and the wheels spinning.  I can
> imagine something like half scale sprint cars:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gyWwSG5a5gk
>
> so the cars would be about 100 pound affairs with 500cc single cylinder
> motorcycle engines for instance, and could be built for about a couple
> thousand dollars, not including the cost of the software and sensors.  That
> will be a really fun sport to watch.  I predict some form of robot racing
> will show up in the next five years.

I don't doubt it at all. Racing has always been the place that people
have tried out new technologies. So how long will it be before they
allow a robot driver to win at Indy? I say win because if it's good
enough to be allowed to drive, it's going to be good enough to likely
win.

-Kelly


From kellycoinguy at gmail.com  Sun Jul 15 15:52:36 2012
From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2012 09:52:36 -0600
Subject: [ExI] self-driving cars again
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armgT-f7NRk7xwuhxjM82270zjcV-U2DZf_DqO-Fw-9KyvA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <006d01cd61e7$67be5940$373b0bc0$@att.net>
 <CAL_armhbdyNeykbNhE=zSpa3tE958837sqBvFMEV1OGetpZ3qg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPy8RwbRq0+EC+_pbiJNxKrbtwiDnLnc2P7FMwH1LWt8hPZ_XQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <006001cd6241$858f26c0$90ad7440$@att.net>
 <CAL_armgT-f7NRk7xwuhxjM82270zjcV-U2DZf_DqO-Fw-9KyvA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPy8RwazROZqbZtOoxuOKQh5VTqX_vcS8yQXzz9Ft92Ea8e1ng@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jul 15, 2012 at 12:28 AM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:
> If robot drivers have to keep to speed limits, then public transport
> becomes a bit more cost effective if you have a robot driver in the
> bus. Perhaps even electric buses for real economy. You could have
> fleets of buses continually driving around. Smaller mini buses on the
> less busy routes. Perhaps you wouldn't even need bus stops. They could
> pickup and set down anywhere on the route, selected by passengers.

My bet for the first commercial autonomous vehicles will be long haul
semi tractor trailers... perhaps Walmart trucks.

-Kelly


From kellycoinguy at gmail.com  Sun Jul 15 15:56:26 2012
From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2012 09:56:26 -0600
Subject: [ExI] self-driving cars again
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armgT-f7NRk7xwuhxjM82270zjcV-U2DZf_DqO-Fw-9KyvA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <006d01cd61e7$67be5940$373b0bc0$@att.net>
 <CAL_armhbdyNeykbNhE=zSpa3tE958837sqBvFMEV1OGetpZ3qg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPy8RwbRq0+EC+_pbiJNxKrbtwiDnLnc2P7FMwH1LWt8hPZ_XQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <006001cd6241$858f26c0$90ad7440$@att.net>
 <CAL_armgT-f7NRk7xwuhxjM82270zjcV-U2DZf_DqO-Fw-9KyvA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPy8Rwaqf02tdSdfwh-jAEOgm4tMtsEZJDhTR3YuXBp97hCExw@mail.gmail.com>

This was in the VERY next email I read... LOL

http://www.ted.com/talks/chris_gerdes_the_future_race_car_150mph_and_no_driver.html

-Kelly


From spike66 at att.net  Sun Jul 15 16:37:41 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2012 09:37:41 -0700
Subject: [ExI] self-driving cars again
In-Reply-To: <CAPy8Rwaqf02tdSdfwh-jAEOgm4tMtsEZJDhTR3YuXBp97hCExw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <006d01cd61e7$67be5940$373b0bc0$@att.net>
 <CAL_armhbdyNeykbNhE=zSpa3tE958837sqBvFMEV1OGetpZ3qg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPy8RwbRq0+EC+_pbiJNxKrbtwiDnLnc2P7FMwH1LWt8hPZ_XQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <006001cd6241$858f26c0$90ad7440$@att.net>
 <CAL_armgT-f7NRk7xwuhxjM82270zjcV-U2DZf_DqO-Fw-9KyvA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPy8Rwaqf02tdSdfwh-jAEOgm4tMtsEZJDhTR3YuXBp97hCExw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <009d01cd62a8$27c397d0$774ac770$@att.net>


>... Behalf Of Kelly Anderson
Subject: Re: [ExI] self-driving cars again

>...This was in the VERY next email I read... LOL

>...http://www.ted.com/talks/chris_gerdes_the_future_race_car_150mph_and_no_
driver.html

-Kelly
_______________________________________________

WOW Excellent.  Almost as if Gerdes read my mind, he has a picture at 50
seconds into the video of what I was describing yesterday: a half scale
sprint car.

He starts out my talking about times when you are driving where your mind
really isn't on the task.  Cars are so easy to operate, especially if you
have automatic transmission, they take very little brain activity, but
riding a motorcycle safely requires attention and at least a few brain
cycles.  Over the years on four occasions I have been out riding and decided
my concentration was insufficient for the task, so in all four cases I
turned around and went back home.

This is an exciting new thing.  I have always loved car racing, but even I
have to admit it does get boring, even to enthusiasts.  This notion of robot
racing is really cool Kelly, thanks.

spike



From spike66 at att.net  Sun Jul 15 16:52:46 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2012 09:52:46 -0700
Subject: [ExI] skylon/SABRE
Message-ID: <00a101cd62aa$43062150$c91263f0$@att.net>

Keith's vision may be a step closer:

 

.Reaction Engines has announced that is has successfully tested the key
pre-cooler component of its revolutionary SABRE engine crucial to the
development of its SKYLON spaceplane
<http://www.gizmag.com/skylon-spaceplane/19033/> . The company claims that
craft equipped with SABRE engines will be able to fly to any destination on
Earth in under 4 hours, or travel directly into space...

 

http://www.gizmag.com/sabre-engine/23304/

 

 

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From spike66 at att.net  Sun Jul 15 17:10:16 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2012 10:10:16 -0700
Subject: [ExI] self-driving cars again
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armgT-f7NRk7xwuhxjM82270zjcV-U2DZf_DqO-Fw-9KyvA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <006d01cd61e7$67be5940$373b0bc0$@att.net>
 <CAL_armhbdyNeykbNhE=zSpa3tE958837sqBvFMEV1OGetpZ3qg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPy8RwbRq0+EC+_pbiJNxKrbtwiDnLnc2P7FMwH1LWt8hPZ_XQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <006001cd6241$858f26c0$90ad7440$@att.net>
 <CAL_armgT-f7NRk7xwuhxjM82270zjcV-U2DZf_DqO-Fw-9KyvA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00a601cd62ac$b4b6d3b0$1e247b10$@att.net>



>... Behalf Of BillK
Subject: Re: [ExI] self-driving cars again

On Sun, Jul 15, 2012 at 5:23 AM, spike wrote:
>>... I would argue that it might eventually be possible to go really fast
with auto^2, but the problem is vastly more difficult than it sounds.  
> There are a large number of effects that can be ignored completely at
small speeds, but which increase dramatically with speed.


>...They had a robot car racing up Pikes Peak. Time trial, though. And so
far still slower than the best humans. But still quite a respectable
performance. Robot cars can do drifting now...  BillK

Cool thanks BillK.  I missed this somehow.  I have set my Google alerts to
find robot car races.

Regarding drifting on a dirt track, this was mentioned in the TED talk.  I
don't know why it is, but steering into a drift really is completely
instinctive.  I don't know why that is, or what evolutionary process would
have developed that mental process, but at least in me, the first time I did
it, both in a pickup truck and on a motorcycle, my instincts kicked in
exactly right and kept my front wheels pointed in the right direction as the
back end came around.  It's really cool they figured out how to get the
software to respond correctly.

In the TED talk I mentioned earlier, he never did explain those brief slides
of what looks to me exactly like half scale sprint cars, but that looks to
me like an ideal platform for developing experimental robot racers.
Actually no it isn't.  We can buy used-up street cars for less money than
you can build even a half scale sprinter, and it would have plenty of speed
capability to match the best software and sensors.  At least for now, we
could get 1-2kUSD clunkers off the used car lot and retrofit them.  It might
be a magic couple of years where anyone with ideas on software can easily
and cheaply rig up a competitive robo-racer.  Later of course, the software
gets better, demanding better and far more expensive hardware.

The saying from my own misspent youth regarding racing is "Speed costs
money.  How fast would you like to spend?"

Right at first (now), a competitive robo-race car can be relatively cheap,
far less expensive than a competitive car in any meat-guided car race.

spike





From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Sun Jul 15 17:59:39 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2012 19:59:39 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Natasha's brand new doctorate
In-Reply-To: <003501cd61d3$45974e30$d0c5ea90$@att.net>
References: <CAJX-7wWAb5bevEQJDEEATKJAP48ADukw5VkgsqF+DxZ2FrGyiQ@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAPoR7a6cx=p_gJtVktjcR6E2HRhAeT_OrwW06RNn4mMZfDUu-Q@mail.gmail.com>

On 14 July 2012 17:13, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

> So what do we do with all these evolutionary vestigial abilities to
> contend with adversity?  We create rtificial adversity, such as video games
> and sports, the professional striving to dominate her business competitors,
> contrived (but singularly worthwhile) goals in academic achievement,
> artificial battles in politics, to suggest a few good examples.
>

I suspect that 95% of human competition and selection has been "cultural"
and "artificial" since the neolithic revolution. Just think of access to
better and more abundant food and reproductive partners. Of course, this
trend has known an unprecedented acceleration since the XIX century.

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From spike66 at att.net  Sun Jul 15 17:49:12 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2012 10:49:12 -0700
Subject: [ExI] self-driving cars again
In-Reply-To: <00a601cd62ac$b4b6d3b0$1e247b10$@att.net>
References: <006d01cd61e7$67be5940$373b0bc0$@att.net>
 <CAL_armhbdyNeykbNhE=zSpa3tE958837sqBvFMEV1OGetpZ3qg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPy8RwbRq0+EC+_pbiJNxKrbtwiDnLnc2P7FMwH1LWt8hPZ_XQ@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <00b001cd62b2$250a1190$6f1e34b0$@att.net>

>... On Behalf Of spike


>...They had a robot car racing up Pikes Peak. ...BillK

BillK, you gave me an excellent idea.  About 20 ago, I drove that road up
Pike's Peak.  It was a memorable experience, most of it dirt, stunning
scenery, but you could see it would be dangerous as all hell if you were
racing.  One miscalculation, over the side you go, and goodbye cruel world.

Yahoos have been racing up that road in hotrods since as long as there have
been hotrods.  The best times are so fast, it would require an expensive car
to challenge even an average human driver.  But what about racing down Pikes
Peak?  There you need really good brakes, which are cheap compared to really
good engines.  

But something else occurred to me.  Humans can't really accept more than
about a 1% chance of doing the old rotating scenery routine, for we are
delicate meat bags and have only one life.  But if you are a robo-car, you
can accept a much higher risk of going over the side.  If you are a cheap
robo-car, built with standard drivetrain and modified brakes, you can accept
a 50% risk of failure: your software survives the crash undamaged, and
plenty of the expensive actuator hardware can probably be salvaged from the
crumpled heap at the bottom of the ravine.

Another thought: if we were to make a Pikes Peak downhill racer from a
standard used car lot refugee, you could reduce weight by taking off
everything that you don't need since there are no apes aboard.  So much
stuff could be recycled or sold as spare parts: the seats, the dashboard,
the doors, windows, air conditioner, the bumpers, the body panels, hell,
most of the car could come off, reducing weight and possibly generating cash
for the cost of recovering the wreckage if it goes over the side.  The
environmentalists should like that part.  Top speeds on that road would be
low enough that increased wind resistance wouldn't be much of a factor.  All
you really need is engine, drivetrain and brakes.  

For that matter, a bare-naked stripper would be a good uphill racer for the
same reason: much lighter by removing all human interface stuff and way
higher tolerance for risk.

In some ways, the software is improved by the unsuccessful run: after the
accident, it now knows exactly how fast it can't quite go, and exactly where
it can't go that fast.

spike



From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Sun Jul 15 18:02:41 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2012 20:02:41 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Artificial Battles was Natasha's brand new doctorate
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armhgORzsdU1yuUa+uEGeqjShHULTm7w9pFPGep0VUKvPcw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOJFdbLpva-HMn4qFS4Pd48S1h==MpfHp7dKWnVhYLAZrzaBXA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armhgORzsdU1yuUa+uEGeqjShHULTm7w9pFPGep0VUKvPcw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a5QEMAxpp=ajzVuLJcRaN1-96ayA4DzORj1SE3pS=56Eg@mail.gmail.com>

On 14 July 2012 18:19, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:

> I find Spike's idea of fair and sportsmanlike competition rather
> quaint and idealistic.
>

Yes and no.

Certainly, "? la guerre comme ? la guerre" (and, by the way, "en amour
comme en guerre").

OTOH, ritualisation of aggressiveness is pervasive (see Konrad Lorenz),
especially amongst predators. And we certainly qualify as such.

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Sun Jul 15 18:06:11 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2012 20:06:11 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Artificial Battles was Natasha's brand new doctorate
In-Reply-To: <CAOJFdb+gn8qmo4smFjMyzikAJLGdgy6C96WMbi11D5Nxc10-rw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOJFdbLpva-HMn4qFS4Pd48S1h==MpfHp7dKWnVhYLAZrzaBXA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armhgORzsdU1yuUa+uEGeqjShHULTm7w9pFPGep0VUKvPcw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOJFdbLOm8qeuNsq+pz-wnY+DVPfm8dAJYsLPQcXZok-FwoyOg@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAPoR7a7mp=DPneKxxmLxVegdyntqapKC2j0fRJPaw=VPyu1FTw@mail.gmail.com>

On 14 July 2012 19:49, Mike Dougherty <msd001 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hmm... not exactly what I meant.  I don't strive to out-psycho the
> dominant psychopaths.
>

By the way, I suspect that the concept of psychopathy or sociopathy are
abused. An affected individual should by definition be somebody who is
dysfunctional in a given social context. Somebody who is perfectly adapted
to a given society can therefore hardly be considered one.

The "pathology", if anything, may of course still qualify the society
concerned. :-)

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From spike66 at att.net  Sun Jul 15 18:20:27 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2012 11:20:27 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Artificial Battles was ... brand new doctorate
Message-ID: <00cb01cd62b6$831258c0$89370a40$@att.net>

 

 

Regarding subject lines again, do remove names please from subject lines as
soon as appropriate, which is several days ago now, thanks.

 

spike

 

 

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From rtomek at ceti.pl  Sun Jul 15 23:02:21 2012
From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola)
Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2012 01:02:21 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] First PhD to an AGI
In-Reply-To: <3F14121D-92AD-4627-97E5-7416C6BBC426@gmail.com>
References: <CAPy8RwYZy37bhtOoDKiCC4U45V-DtWZkV_tXD=eX677vH9eK_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <3F14121D-92AD-4627-97E5-7416C6BBC426@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1207152359020.6185@tau.ceti.pl>

On Sun, 15 Jul 2012, Kryonica wrote:

> 
> On 14 Jul 2012, at 22:37, Kelly Anderson wrote:
> 
> > With our newly minted doctor in residence, the question occurs to me
> > as to when you think an accredited university will first award a
> > doctorate degree to an artificial intelligence? Anyone want to put
> > their bet into the pool as to when that might occur?
> > 
> > I'll go first, I'm guessing 2035.
> 
> Later than that because academics will fear the competition in a world 
> in which the ONLY thing that distinguishes them from their cleverer AI 
> competitors is a piece of paper with "Ph D" printed on it.  So how long 
> will it take them to give in?  For computer scientists and 
> mathematicians, perhaps not that long because their fear will be 
> overcome by their admiration for their own brainchildren.  For people 
> working in the humanities, much longer.  Say 2050 for computer science 
> and 2070 for English or History.

Not sure about dates but agree on general attitude. For the same reasons, 
AGI will get engineering degrees easier.

>  And I think the first Ph D in Theology awarded an AI will only be so 
> after a long fight with the Vatican and only once the pope himself is a 
> cyborg.  Say 2250 or thereabout, judging from how long it took the 
> Church to come to terms with the theory of evolution.

I guess universities have lots of independency, and in such case one 
should not count on Vatican having much to say about this. Of course their 
suggestions might be listened to. Overally, whoever gives money to the 
uni, has a say about such thing. And I would expect some money involved in 
denying AGI any kind of independency. Like, if Wall Street had their owh 
AGI-based money machine, would they really allow growth of any idea 
suggesting money should belong to the software?

As of pope becoming a cyborg, this is doable anytime. All it takes are, 
for example:

- hip replacement

- ear implant

- connecting to dialyzer

- heart's pacemaker implantation

- implantation of total artificial heart

- any surgical procedure involving connection to cardiopulmonary bypass 
(we allow the pope to become a cyborg temporarilly, right?)

I wouldn't expect as much opposition from the Church officials as from the 
Church-goers themselves. Afterall, officials are expected to be educated, 
mostly modern folks, with PhDs and sometimes academic achievements. OTOH, 
we will wait and maybe we'll see who makes bigger opposition and for what 
reason :-). And BTW, why AGI would care it was denied PhD in Theology?

I mean, it is easy to fall into trap when one starts extrapolating future 
behaviour of institutions and people involved. For example, there was once 
Trofim Lysenko, who opposed Mendelian theory of inheritance and is said to 
have a role in purges of scientists researching genetics in USSR. If you 
don't know, sometimes this could mean not only you but your closest family 
and even further relatives or friends could go into prison or travel to 
Siberia - those travels were often unidirectional. Actually, I believe 
Siberia was preferred to prison, because there prisoners could be worked 
to death rather than having free prison meals. After all, if a geneticist 
was an enemy of people, he did not deserve a bullet, let alone calm and 
long life in prison.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trofim_Lysenko

About decade after Lysenko's star begun to fade, in 1966, Wlodzimierz 
Sedlak wrote a habilitation thesis "Mozliwosc odtworzenia poczatkow 
ewolucji organicznej na podstawie komponentu krzemowego" ("On possibility 
of recreating organic evolution's beginnings on a base of silicon 
substrate" - I'm not sure if this is the best translation, cannot spot 
anything better) - this one was from theoretical biology, but he also had 
PhD in pedagogy as well as made some pioneering research in bioelectronics 
- and he was a Polish Catholic priest, by the way.

Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.      **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home    **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...      **
**                                                                 **
** Tomasz Rola          mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com             **


From emlynoregan at gmail.com  Sun Jul 15 23:46:41 2012
From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn)
Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2012 09:16:41 +0930
Subject: [ExI] Anders interviewed on Australia's Late Night Live about AI
Message-ID: <CAMp1VPA4zd1KWamvaruM=UzD1LiMg7thtVazKLx5pYsPvABZoQ@mail.gmail.com>

I think anyone can listen/download the podcast.

http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/latenightlive/11th-july-2012/4112990

Lovely surprise Anders, and a fun interview to listen to.
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From spike66 at att.net  Mon Jul 16 00:38:41 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2012 17:38:41 -0700
Subject: [ExI] self-driving cars again
In-Reply-To: <00b001cd62b2$250a1190$6f1e34b0$@att.net>
References: <006d01cd61e7$67be5940$373b0bc0$@att.net>
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Message-ID: <002301cd62eb$594c6d70$0be54850$@att.net>

Apologies for the overposting today, but not for replying to my own message,
this being considered fair game here.


>... On Behalf Of spike
...

>...Yahoos have been racing up that road in hotrods since as long as there
have been hotrods.  The best times are so fast, it would require an
expensive car to challenge even an average human driver.  But what about
racing down Pikes Peak?  There you need really good brakes, which are cheap
compared to really good engines... spike

_______________________________________________

I had an even better idea: a robot race down Pikes Peak with an unpowered
vehicle.  That greatly simplifies the braking problem, since the vehicle
would already be extremely light, and we already have motorcycle disk brakes
that could easily handle anything that a downhill racer would encounter.  It
makes the task of software development somewhat simpler: speed control is
one dimensional, with the only control being the brakes.  In fact we already
have electrically actuated brakes: some trailer have them.  That lets us use
entirely off-the-shelf parts, a trailer brake controller and servo-calipers.
Oh man, this would be so simple, even I might able to build a car that would
do that.  We might be able to use an existing dune buggy frame, modify it
for this course by lowering the suspension.   Then it becomes entirely a
software development challenge (not that it would be easy.)

Idea: you could rig up a treble anchor hook, in case you fail to make a
turn.  The computer drops that hook, if it is lucky, the hook catches
something that will hold, a shock cord stops the vehicle before it gets
completely wrecked at the bottom of the ravine, the apes come and haul it
back up, perhaps with little or no damage.

I have a college buddy who lives in Highlands Ranch.  Perhaps we could park
the hardware at his house between record attempts.

I can imagine this becoming a really popular sport.  Remember that once you
go into the record books, you stay there forever, even if some other yahoo
comes along later and breaks your record.  The first autonomous unpowered
vehicle down Pike's sets a record, regardless of how slow it goes.

spike





From spike66 at att.net  Mon Jul 16 01:31:55 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2012 18:31:55 -0700
Subject: [ExI] self-driving cars again
In-Reply-To: <002301cd62eb$594c6d70$0be54850$@att.net>
References: <006d01cd61e7$67be5940$373b0bc0$@att.net>
 <CAL_armhbdyNeykbNhE=zSpa3tE958837sqBvFMEV1OGetpZ3qg@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <002d01cd62f2$c9981f50$5cc85df0$@att.net>

Double apologies for even more overposting today.  I will cool it tomorrow.

_______________________________________________

>...I had an even better idea: a robot race down Pikes Peak with an
unpowered vehicle...spike
_______________________________________________


No, scratch that, better idea.  The hell with Pike's Peak, too far away.  We
have a perfectly adequate hill right here next to San Jose, the road up
Mount Hamilton where the Lick Observatory sits.  That is a paved road,
really winding, hairpin turns everywhere.  We have the Stanford lads right
close by, a big city where there are plenty of amateur AI programmers and
some actual professional bit-slingers.  We could get up there at the crack
of dawn on any summer day and have a really cool unpowered robot race.  I
could keep the car right here in my own garage.  If it has no motor, there
is very little risk of starting a fire in the event of a crash.

We could start with something as simple as this:

http://gokartsusa.com/azusa3557gokart.aspx

We don't need the engine, so off that comes, or just look for a frame.  With
engine, this rig is about 100 pounds, so once we get that motor off and the
sensors on, we might still be under 100 pounds.  Or, something like this
might be all you would need:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/go-kart-frame-streaker-1-seater-live-axle-go-cart-ro
lling-frame-/221067918762?pt=Go_Karts&hash=item3378acbdaa

You know if this sport catches on, it's only a matter of time before the
controls engineers try to rig a robo-bicycle to enter the game, and
remember, the first person who does it goes into the record books forever.

People risk their lives and do all manner of wacky things to get world
records, especially anything having to do with speed and danger:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rollie_Free

We could get a guy on either end with phones, temporarily close the road to
Mount Hamilton, turn it loose.

Kewall!

spike



From kellycoinguy at gmail.com  Mon Jul 16 03:05:27 2012
From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2012 21:05:27 -0600
Subject: [ExI] self-driving cars again
In-Reply-To: <009d01cd62a8$27c397d0$774ac770$@att.net>
References: <006d01cd61e7$67be5940$373b0bc0$@att.net>
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On Sun, Jul 15, 2012 at 10:37 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>
>>... Behalf Of Kelly Anderson
> Subject: Re: [ExI] self-driving cars again
>
>>...This was in the VERY next email I read... LOL
>
>>...http://www.ted.com/talks/chris_gerdes_the_future_race_car_150mph_and_no_
> driver.html
>
> -Kelly
> _______________________________________________
>
> WOW Excellent.  Almost as if Gerdes read my mind, he has a picture at 50
> seconds into the video of what I was describing yesterday: a half scale
> sprint car.

I thought you would enjoy that part.

> He starts out my talking about times when you are driving where your mind
> really isn't on the task.  Cars are so easy to operate, especially if you
> have automatic transmission, they take very little brain activity, but
> riding a motorcycle safely requires attention and at least a few brain
> cycles.  Over the years on four occasions I have been out riding and decided
> my concentration was insufficient for the task, so in all four cases I
> turned around and went back home.

You are a wise man Spike. Thanks for staying with us.

> This is an exciting new thing.  I have always loved car racing, but even I
> have to admit it does get boring, even to enthusiasts.  This notion of robot
> racing is really cool Kelly, thanks.

You're welcome Spike. I was a big fan of Robot Wars and the like, and
always yearned for an autonomous version of that sport. I hope they
have it one day. Sadly, even the future version of robot wars as
presented in Real Steel did not feature autonomous robots. I rather
believe the future of robotic competition will be more and more
autonomous. Otherwise, it's just remote control competition, not true
robotic competition. I would hope that the public could appreciate the
difference.

-Kelly


From anders at aleph.se  Mon Jul 16 06:18:12 2012
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2012 07:18:12 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Anders interviewed on Australia's Late Night Live about AI
In-Reply-To: <CAMp1VPA4zd1KWamvaruM=UzD1LiMg7thtVazKLx5pYsPvABZoQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMp1VPA4zd1KWamvaruM=UzD1LiMg7thtVazKLx5pYsPvABZoQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5003B224.70906@aleph.se>

On 16/07/2012 00:46, Emlyn wrote:
>
> I think anyone can listen/download the podcast.
>
> http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/latenightlive/11th-july-2012/4112990
>
> Lovely surprise Anders, and a fun interview to listen to.
>

Thanks! It was a very fun interview. If you scour Australian media 
carefully you will notice I had a busy week - I gave five interviews in 
total. The same evening I was also around on The Drum newsshow where I 
defended one of my papers on love enhancement and talked a bit of 
cryonics. The weirdest moment was after the radio show as I was on my 
way back down the elevator in the ABC building and noticed a small TV in 
the wall showing me in the *live* news show. It took me a moment to 
realize that it was a re-run and I hadn't doubled or time travelled (sigh).

Overall, the RSS 2012 conference I attended was very good. The papers 
can be seen here
http://www.roboticsproceedings.org/rss08/
My favorite in the "gosh" category is of course the rocket-propelled 
robotic insects,
http://www.roboticsproceedings.org/rss08/p24.html
and the nicest theoretical paper (both in my opinion and the award 
committee) was the one about learning safe control
http://www.roboticsproceedings.org/rss08/p11.html
but my real favorite paper is the one about learning routes using 
*extremely* low resolution imagery
http://www.roboticsproceedings.org/rss08/p38.html
- in principle most of the world's road network could fit on a hard 
drive (but not in practice).

Of course, none of these robots are likely to have a hard takeoff... 
except the rocket insects of course.

-- 
Anders Sandberg,
Future of Humanity Institute
Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University



From pharos at gmail.com  Mon Jul 16 07:28:05 2012
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2012 08:28:05 +0100
Subject: [ExI] self-driving cars again
In-Reply-To: <002d01cd62f2$c9981f50$5cc85df0$@att.net>
References: <006d01cd61e7$67be5940$373b0bc0$@att.net>
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 <002d01cd62f2$c9981f50$5cc85df0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAL_armijiuLWBCcp_nmHaoSsVCE+YU4vw66vVAT=1a4DdCP+2w@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jul 16, 2012 at 2:31 AM, spike wrote:
> No, scratch that, better idea.  The hell with Pike's Peak, too far away.  We
> have a perfectly adequate hill right here next to San Jose, the road up
> Mount Hamilton where the Lick Observatory sits.  That is a paved road,
> really winding, hairpin turns everywhere.  We have the Stanford lads right
> close by, a big city where there are plenty of amateur AI programmers and
> some actual professional bit-slingers.  We could get up there at the crack
> of dawn on any summer day and have a really cool unpowered robot race.  I
> could keep the car right here in my own garage.  If it has no motor, there
> is very little risk of starting a fire in the event of a crash.
>
> We could start with something as simple as this:
>
> http://gokartsusa.com/azusa3557gokart.aspx
>
> We don't need the engine, so off that comes, or just look for a frame.  With
> engine, this rig is about 100 pounds, so once we get that motor off and the
> sensors on, we might still be under 100 pounds.



:)  At the risk of setting you off again.......

The motor is not just used for driving the wheels.
You will need a good battery to power the sensors and the computers.
And to operate the steering and brakes.

To get faster times you probably need better tyres for cornering grip.
And a bit of streamlining cover as air resistance quickly builds up
above 50 mph.
Maybe a wing for cornering downforce?

Then you need a stronger frame to carry all that gear.


BillK


From eugen at leitl.org  Mon Jul 16 12:53:15 2012
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2012 14:53:15 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Artificial Battles was Natasha's brand new doctorate
In-Reply-To: <CAOJFdbLpva-HMn4qFS4Pd48S1h==MpfHp7dKWnVhYLAZrzaBXA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOJFdbLpva-HMn4qFS4Pd48S1h==MpfHp7dKWnVhYLAZrzaBXA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120716125315.GH12615@leitl.org>

On Sat, Jul 14, 2012 at 12:03:45PM -0400, Mike Dougherty wrote:

> The marketing environment is producing arguably toxic levels of
> competing memes.  I'm horrified and fascinated by where evolution will
> take this trend.

Only those without TVs will survive?


From spike66 at att.net  Mon Jul 16 14:18:38 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2012 07:18:38 -0700
Subject: [ExI] self-driving cars again
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armijiuLWBCcp_nmHaoSsVCE+YU4vw66vVAT=1a4DdCP+2w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <006d01cd61e7$67be5940$373b0bc0$@att.net>
 <CAL_armhbdyNeykbNhE=zSpa3tE958837sqBvFMEV1OGetpZ3qg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPy8RwbRq0+EC+_pbiJNxKrbtwiDnLnc2P7FMwH1LWt8hPZ_XQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <006001cd6241$858f26c0$90ad7440$@att.net>
 <CAL_armgT-f7NRk7xwuhxjM82270zjcV-U2DZf_DqO-Fw-9KyvA@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <002701cd635d$e53470e0$af9d52a0$@att.net>


>... On Behalf Of BillK
Subject: Re: [ExI] self-driving cars again

On Mon, Jul 16, 2012 at 2:31 AM, spike wrote:
>> ...No, scratch that, better idea.  The hell with Pike's Peak, too far 
> away.  We have a perfectly adequate hill right here next to San Jose, 
> the road up Mount Hamilton where the Lick Observatory sits...
> We don't need the engine, so off that comes, or just look for a frame.  
> With engine, this rig is about 100 pounds, so once we get that motor 
> off and the sensors on, we might still be under 100 pounds.

>...:)  At the risk of setting you off again...The motor is not just used
for driving the wheels.
You will need a good battery to power the sensors and the computers.
And to operate the steering and brakes...

Oh my, ja, this is the mechanical engineer's playground.  A battery would be
good, or better yet, a supercapacitor with power generated off the axle as
the car descends.  For that matter we could even use the power generated as
a braking assist, and use the excess power to do something fun, like run a
siren or something.  {8^D  The engineering students at Stanford and San Jose
State U would have a blast with this, and also that other school up the
street whose name escapes me.  Berkel something or other.  We could get
teams from all three, or four if Santa Clara U wants to play.


>...To get faster times you probably need better tyres for cornering grip...

Ja!  We have the super sticky motorcycle tires, already preadapted for this
sort of silliness.  The fun part will be in seeing if we can get a
four-wheeled vehicle to tilt all four wheels into a turn to take advantage
of the motorcycle tires, or even more fun: just go ahead and rig a
de-engined motorcycle to make the run.  That would have a lot of advantages:
the brakes are already more than adequate without modification, the tire
infrastructure is already in place, they are available cheaply in arbitrary
quantities with zero risk of ever running short, it has the advantage of
challenging humans directly at their own game (motorcycles race up on that
road all the time.)  It would be super wicked cool to get a robo-bike
tearing down the hill so fast that biker proles couldn't catch it, even with
the advantage of an engine.  {8^D

>...And a bit of streamlining cover as air resistance quickly builds up
above 50 mph...

The faster bikes already have fairings.  We could easily make an aerodynamic
cover (for where we remove the radiator) out of moldable polyethylene.

That road has another way in which it is ideal: there are no houses in the
upper 2/3 of the run, and nothing you would risk damaging if things gang aft
agley.

>...Maybe a wing for cornering downforce? BillK

Cool, like the sprint cars?  With a two-wheeler, that wouldn't be necessary
of course, and forgive me for fixating on a robo-motorcycle, but that is
something I find fills me with awe and wonder, just the sight of a riderless
motorcycle tearing down that hill with a dozen racer boys chasing it and
failing to keep up.  Oh my evolution, that would be a kick.  People would
buy tick... THAT'S IT!  This is one HELLLLL of a spectator sport!  We could
have proles on the insides of the turns so they aren't in much danger, have
them kick in five bucks for it, or up on the cliffs twenty feet above the
road, a series of bikes released every couple minutes like Isle of Man time
trials.  We could set up betting and so forth.  This is the new NASCAR,
except quieter and cleaner.

spike



From spike66 at att.net  Mon Jul 16 16:00:31 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2012 09:00:31 -0700
Subject: [ExI] self-driving cars again
In-Reply-To: <002701cd635d$e53470e0$af9d52a0$@att.net>
References: <006d01cd61e7$67be5940$373b0bc0$@att.net>
 <CAL_armhbdyNeykbNhE=zSpa3tE958837sqBvFMEV1OGetpZ3qg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPy8RwbRq0+EC+_pbiJNxKrbtwiDnLnc2P7FMwH1LWt8hPZ_XQ@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <004501cd636c$20b31f00$62195d00$@att.net>



>... On Behalf Of spike
>...  People would buy tick... THAT'S IT!  This is one HELLLLL of a
spectator sport!  We could have proles on the insides of the turns so they
aren't in much danger, have them kick in five bucks for it, or up on the
cliffs twenty feet above the road, a series of bikes released every couple
minutes like Isle of Man time trials.  We could set up betting and so forth.
This is the new NASCAR, except quieter and cleaner.

spike

_______________________________________________


Hey I had an even better idea.  That road up to Mount Hamilton would be
great for the big race, but I know of several other roads right close by
which could be closed all weekend for testing robo-cars and bikes.  One is
called Old Calaveras Road, in the hills to the north and east of Milpitas
and San Jose:

https://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&q=ed+levin+park&fb=1&gl=us&hq=ed
+levin+park&hnear=0x808fcae48af93ff5:0xb99d8c0aca9f717b,San+Jose,+CA&cid=0,0
,15365086620364915672&ei=BjYEUK2sCpTE2QW_l92hCw&sqi=2&ved=0CIsBEPwSMAM

There's a rock quarry up along that road but it is closed on weekends.  We
could perhaps get them to close the road to traffic all weekend and use it
to work out the bugs on all those experimental soap-box derby cars for
grownups.

Besides Old Calaveras Road, there is Uridias Ranch Road which the owners
might be willing to close for the racer lads.  When you look at that range
of hills east of San Jose, you see we could make a dirt course anywhere up
there, a serpentine dirt road about 5 miles long, coming down off of there,
with a road to the top for the participants.  We could set up bleachers for
paying spectators and such.  

Those hills aren't good for much of anything but cattle grazing now and very
few of those: they are too steep for crops or houses and cannot be
effectively irrigated.  We could make a closed course which proles would pay
five bucks to let their experimental cars and bikes race down, use it to
tune up their self-driving car software.  We could make a buttload of money
and advance technology at the same time, or rather, *you* could advance the
technology while *I* make the buttload of money.

Ohh, sooo kewallll...

spike



From pharos at gmail.com  Mon Jul 16 17:47:59 2012
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2012 18:47:59 +0100
Subject: [ExI] self-driving cars again
In-Reply-To: <004501cd636c$20b31f00$62195d00$@att.net>
References: <006d01cd61e7$67be5940$373b0bc0$@att.net>
 <CAL_armhbdyNeykbNhE=zSpa3tE958837sqBvFMEV1OGetpZ3qg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPy8RwbRq0+EC+_pbiJNxKrbtwiDnLnc2P7FMwH1LWt8hPZ_XQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <006001cd6241$858f26c0$90ad7440$@att.net>
 <CAL_armgT-f7NRk7xwuhxjM82270zjcV-U2DZf_DqO-Fw-9KyvA@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAL_armhcC61ZvRAw_4RmBOFN7xWs-45UOVygAw0PAnPS48ECtA@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jul 16, 2012 at 5:00 PM, spike wrote:
<snip>
> Those hills aren't good for much of anything but cattle grazing now and very
> few of those: they are too steep for crops or houses and cannot be
> effectively irrigated.  We could make a closed course which proles would pay
> five bucks to let their experimental cars and bikes race down, use it to
> tune up their self-driving car software.  We could make a buttload of money
> and advance technology at the same time, or rather, *you* could advance the
> technology while *I* make the buttload of money.
>
> Ohh, sooo kewallll...
>
>

Just a thought that going for a robot motorcycle might be a step too far.
They seem to be very scarce at present. Google only finds a few not
very successful attempts.
You would have to develop all the balance technology as well. I would
move that to phase two, unless you find a determined team that wants
to tackle the problem.

You could try automating something like the Piaggio MP3 curver
three-wheel scooter (minus the engine). That still leans into the
corners and with three wheels, you don't need to develop the balance
tech.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piaggio_MP3>

BillK


From scerir at alice.it  Mon Jul 16 18:01:57 2012
From: scerir at alice.it (scerir)
Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2012 20:01:57 +0200
Subject: [ExI] higgs boson: was RE:  Naked Mole Rat.
In-Reply-To: <013901cd5ae7$9da67710$d8f36530$@att.net>
References: <013901cd5ae7$9da67710$d8f36530$@att.net>
Message-ID: <54A9A1241BFA41E7B831CC0374E46CE5@PCserafino>

>.I'm really surprised no one commented on the Higgs boson news.

Dan, here it is, by Weinberg in person 
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/14/opinion/weinberg-why-the-higgs-boson-matters.html



From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Mon Jul 16 18:05:05 2012
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2012 11:05:05 -0700
Subject: [ExI] skylon/SABRE
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB4u7EA+7PZY4krdE=UfdXfoUWwTLeK5LU-2+K=-irA-QQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jul 16, 2012 at 5:00 AM,  "spike" <spike66 at att.net>> wrote:

> Keith's vision may be a step closer:
>
> .Reaction Engines has announced that is has successfully tested the key
> pre-cooler component of its revolutionary SABRE engine crucial to the
> development of its SKYLON spaceplane
> <http://www.gizmag.com/skylon-spaceplane/19033/> . The company claims that
> craft equipped with SABRE engines will be able to fly to any destination on
> Earth in under 4 hours, or travel directly into space...

My "vision" such as it is stems from the observation that if we
already had a power sat and equipped it with propulsion lasers,
further power sats would be a very expensive way to make electric
power.  In fact, the power would be so cheap the current oil companies
could use it to make carbon neutral synthetic transportation fuels for
~$1 per gallon.

The profits from doing this are so high that it seems to be worth
putting up a first power sat dedicated to propulsion with relatively
conventional means, such as Falcon Heavy or Skylon.

Reaction Engines isn't particularly enthusiastic about taking out the
oxygen tank and adding hydrogen heaters for a Gen II laser powered
Skylon.  However, if the organization doing this wants to buy 16 of
the original design for building up the seed power sat and propulsion
lasers, they will probably go along with a Gen II design.  :-)  The
mass fraction that gets to GEO for the Gen II is 6 times that of the
"conventional" Skylon.

Two weeks ago I talked about this project at an Advanced Concepts
conference at ESTEC in the Netherlands.  (Two days of conference and
two days of flying, oh my.)  I discussed the topic with a packed room
for over an hour.  There was a bit of sticker shock since my initial
estimate was 35 times ESA's yearly budget, but there was general
agreement that I have the physics and economics at least plausible.

I have a 17 page draft article going off to the JBIS this Friday.  I
can't make it pubic, but if some of you want to read it and comment, I
can send you a copy for review.  Don't ask unless you think you can
get comments back to me by Thursday.  Dr. Phil Chapman read an earlier
version.  He wrote three pages of comment/objections that I mostly
incorporated.

Keith


From scerir at alice.it  Mon Jul 16 18:25:01 2012
From: scerir at alice.it (scerir)
Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2012 20:25:01 +0200
Subject: [ExI] higgs boson
In-Reply-To: <54A9A1241BFA41E7B831CC0374E46CE5@PCserafino>
References: <013901cd5ae7$9da67710$d8f36530$@att.net>
 <54A9A1241BFA41E7B831CC0374E46CE5@PCserafino>
Message-ID: <8A03FD14A2EB4556B7E12896E91522BA@PCserafino>

> Dan, here it is, by Weinberg in person 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/14/opinion/weinberg-why-the-higgs-boson-matters.html

There's a story, that when Robert McNamara was Secretary of Defense 
he was given a tour of Fermilab.  
At the end he asked Robert Wilson how the lab contributed to national defense.  
Wilson replied, "It's part of what makes it worth defending."
(courtesy of B.M.)



From spike66 at att.net  Mon Jul 16 18:25:24 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2012 11:25:24 -0700
Subject: [ExI] self-driving cars again
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armhcC61ZvRAw_4RmBOFN7xWs-45UOVygAw0PAnPS48ECtA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <006d01cd61e7$67be5940$373b0bc0$@att.net>
 <CAL_armhbdyNeykbNhE=zSpa3tE958837sqBvFMEV1OGetpZ3qg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPy8RwbRq0+EC+_pbiJNxKrbtwiDnLnc2P7FMwH1LWt8hPZ_XQ@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <007f01cd6380$5e43ae70$1acb0b50$@att.net>

... Behalf Of BillK
Subject: Re: [ExI] self-driving cars again

On Mon, Jul 16, 2012 at 5:00 PM, spike wrote:
<snip>
> ...  We could make a closed course which 
> proles would pay five bucks to let their experimental cars and bikes 
> race down... Ohh, sooo kewallll...
>
>

>...Just a thought that going for a robot motorcycle might be a step too
far...

I think you are right BillK.  I am attracted to the problem just because I
like controls engineering, but it wouldn't be a damn bit easy.  You might be
able to find some Stanford hotshots who want to do it, but something like
that might require a corporate sponsorship and a dedicated bunch of lads.
The whole problem reminds me of helicopters.  Guys were thinking of vertical
takeoff and landing when the Wright brothers managed to take off, but it
took decades to work out the control problem.  It would be an order of
magnitude harder than a four wheeler, but ultimately I expect the best runs
to be made by a two wheeler because of the lowered rolling resistance and
better cornering characteristics, just as the fast bikers can negotiate Mt.
Hamiliton Road faster than the fast carers.  

>...They seem to be very scarce at present. Google only finds a few not very
successful attempts...

There was a guy who showed up at the DARPA challenge in 2005.  His bike
wobbled around and didn't go far, but the crowd went nuts over his entry.
Even the non-engineers can see what a difficult problem he had (partially)
solved.

>...You could try automating something like the Piaggio MP3 curver
three-wheel scooter (minus the engine). That still leans into the corners
and with three wheels, you don't need to develop the balance tech.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piaggio_MP3>...BillK
_______________________________________________

Ja, that three-wheeler notion has a lot of promise, and could be a separate
class of competitors.

I am contacting some local businesses with the notion to see if any of them
want to sponsor a car.  Google might be interested, and Intel's products
would surely be used, as well as tire companies and such as that.
Eventually, just as in NASCAR, the competition eventually comes down to tire
and suspension technology, but there are a lot of controls problems to work
until that happens.

This is really exciting, a whole nuther area of racing is opening.  This is
one that has a magic combination: it is something that amateurs can
participate in, doesn't cost all that much, it doesn't involve any actual
danger (which will cause a few to lose interest) but is wide open to new
ideas and new inventions, with lots of practical real world applications.  

When a sport is mature, such as NASCAR, all the entries look and even
perform almost identically.  This one is so new, everyone will have their
own ideas on how to do this game.  This is so exciting.  BillK, I know it is
pretty flat over there in Jolly Olde.  Have you convenient access to any
local hills?  Nothing will get this going like a little intercontinental
rivalry, and OH NO the limeys are going to whoop our asses, etc.  When I
write the proposals, I can suggest there is a British guy all over this, and
we don't want to be buying robo-racer tech from them, now do we, and so
forth.  

Competition breeds excellence.

spike





From pharos at gmail.com  Mon Jul 16 19:19:06 2012
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2012 20:19:06 +0100
Subject: [ExI] self-driving cars again
In-Reply-To: <007f01cd6380$5e43ae70$1acb0b50$@att.net>
References: <006d01cd61e7$67be5940$373b0bc0$@att.net>
 <CAL_armhbdyNeykbNhE=zSpa3tE958837sqBvFMEV1OGetpZ3qg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPy8RwbRq0+EC+_pbiJNxKrbtwiDnLnc2P7FMwH1LWt8hPZ_XQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <006001cd6241$858f26c0$90ad7440$@att.net>
 <CAL_armgT-f7NRk7xwuhxjM82270zjcV-U2DZf_DqO-Fw-9KyvA@mail.gmail.com>
 <00a601cd62ac$b4b6d3b0$1e247b10$@att.net>
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Message-ID: <CAL_armi2wHKWVYK368vTLisj+bLE3QMLmdtiT5Zo+i0gzU9pgA@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jul 16, 2012 at 7:25 PM, spike  wrote:
<snip>
> I am contacting some local businesses with the notion to see if any of them
> want to sponsor a car.  Google might be interested, and Intel's products
> would surely be used, as well as tire companies and such as that.
> Eventually, just as in NASCAR, the competition eventually comes down to tire
> and suspension technology, but there are a lot of controls problems to work
> until that happens.
>
> This is really exciting, a whole nuther area of racing is opening.  This is
> one that has a magic combination: it is something that amateurs can
> participate in, doesn't cost all that much, it doesn't involve any actual
> danger (which will cause a few to lose interest) but is wide open to new
> ideas and new inventions, with lots of practical real world applications.
>
> When a sport is mature, such as NASCAR, all the entries look and even
> perform almost identically.  This one is so new, everyone will have their
> own ideas on how to do this game.  This is so exciting.  BillK, I know it is
> pretty flat over there in Jolly Olde.  Have you convenient access to any
> local hills?  Nothing will get this going like a little intercontinental
> rivalry, and OH NO the limeys are going to whoop our asses, etc.  When I
> write the proposals, I can suggest there is a British guy all over this, and
> we don't want to be buying robo-racer tech from them, now do we, and so
> forth.
>
>

Really, what you're talking about is robot Soapbox cart racing.
(Gravity Racers is the all-inclusive term these days).

Soapbox derbies happen all over, even in the UK.
See:
<http://www.soapboxracing.co.uk/>
<http://www.belchford.org.uk/Belchford%20Downhill%20Challenge%20Soapbox%20Cart%20Race%20Page.html>

It might be useful to link the Google people with the Soapbox Derby people.
But I don't know if the robot car tech is being made available to
amateur enthusiasts yet.

BillK


From jrd1415 at gmail.com  Mon Jul 16 19:10:51 2012
From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis)
Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2012 12:10:51 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The evolution of evolution
Message-ID: <CAHUTwkN-2DRyTYDsASgsHgQ68eNnvH+2w5jodbEzjWuyTakJRA@mail.gmail.com>

Friends,

Thought this worth passing on.

Computer Scientists Reproduce the Evolution of Evolvability

Simulation explains the origin of one of nature's most important
organising principles.

In particular, this phrase caught my imagination:

"Knowing [a certain discovery] will substantially advance ?elds that
harness evolution for engineering,"

http://www.technologyreview.com/view/428504/computer-scientists-reproduce-the-evolution-of/?nlid=nldly&nld=2012-07-16

Best, Jeff Davis

        "Everything's hard till you know how to do it."
                                         Ray Charles



From dan_ust at yahoo.com  Mon Jul 16 20:22:32 2012
From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan)
Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2012 13:22:32 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] higgs boson: was RE:  Naked Mole Rat.
In-Reply-To: <54A9A1241BFA41E7B831CC0374E46CE5@PCserafino>
References: <013901cd5ae7$9da67710$d8f36530$@att.net>
 <54A9A1241BFA41E7B831CC0374E46CE5@PCserafino>
Message-ID: <1342470152.23218.YahooMailNeo@web160605.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

On Monday, July 16, 2012 2:01 PM scerir <scerir at alice.it> wrote:

 >>.I'm really surprised no one commented on the Higgs boson news.
>
> Dan, here it is, by Weinberg in person 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/14/opinion/weinberg-why-the-higgs-boson-matters.html

Thanks for that. Not really relevant, but one of my favorite quotes is from Weinberg:

"With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -- that takes religion."

Regards,

Dan
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From anders at aleph.se  Mon Jul 16 20:42:45 2012
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2012 21:42:45 +0100
Subject: [ExI] self-driving cars again
In-Reply-To: <006001cd6241$858f26c0$90ad7440$@att.net>
References: <006d01cd61e7$67be5940$373b0bc0$@att.net>
 <CAL_armhbdyNeykbNhE=zSpa3tE958837sqBvFMEV1OGetpZ3qg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPy8RwbRq0+EC+_pbiJNxKrbtwiDnLnc2P7FMwH1LWt8hPZ_XQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <006001cd6241$858f26c0$90ad7440$@att.net>
Message-ID: <50047CC5.3030405@aleph.se>

Here is something that came up at the robotics conference, and I might 
write a paper about if I get enough ideas:

Robotic cars will occasionally end up in situations like the trolley problem
http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2012/06/the-google-trolley-problem.html
- an accident is imminent, and the car(s) will need to make split second 
decisions that would have been called moral decisions if humans had made 
them.

First, the cars will have to act under uncertain information and the 
effect of their decisions can be unpredictable. This is not too 
different from current airbag deployment systems, that already makes a 
rudimentary judgement of when a crash is likely enough that launching 
the airbag is likely safer than not doing it. The car might for example 
make a guess at whether swerving off the road is a better choice than 
being hit by a truck.

Second, in a multi-car collision there is plenty of time for the cars to 
have a brief negotiation and coordinate their actions. This can turn 
into really fun issues, like the cars estimating which action saves the 
most lives - but what if one car just wants to protect its own 
passengers? Or one of them is dumb?

Third, the above negotiation complexities are fun from a philosophical 
and game theoretic standpoint, but in practice it is likely that there 
will be a decision on some standard behaviour among all smart cars. What 
principles would make sense to base such a system on? Minimizing number 
of killed or hurt people obviously, but what minimization principle? Or 
should car behaviour actually reflect what the owners would have done in 
their place? How to balance uncertainty and risk, and damage to one's 
own or other's property?

Overall, what I am thinking of is what kind of auto-morality and 
auto-ethics we should (or ought to) implement beyond the engineeringwise 
more obvious safety and reliability concerns.

Thoughts?

-- 
Anders Sandberg,
Future of Humanity Institute
Oxford Martin School
Faculty of Philosophy
Oxford University



From spike66 at att.net  Mon Jul 16 21:00:41 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2012 14:00:41 -0700
Subject: [ExI] self-driving cars again
In-Reply-To: <50047CC5.3030405@aleph.se>
References: <006d01cd61e7$67be5940$373b0bc0$@att.net>
 <CAL_armhbdyNeykbNhE=zSpa3tE958837sqBvFMEV1OGetpZ3qg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPy8RwbRq0+EC+_pbiJNxKrbtwiDnLnc2P7FMwH1LWt8hPZ_XQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <006001cd6241$858f26c0$90ad7440$@att.net> <50047CC5.3030405@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <00d201cd6396$10155490$303ffdb0$@att.net>


... On Behalf Of Anders Sandberg
Subject: Re: [ExI] self-driving cars again

>...Robotic cars will occasionally end up in situations like the trolley
problem
http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2012/06/the-google-trolley-
problem.html
- an accident is imminent, and the car(s) will need to make split second
decisions that would have been called moral decisions if humans had made
them... what kind of auto-morality and auto-ethics we should (or ought to)
implement beyond the engineeringwise more obvious safety and reliability
concerns... Thoughts? -- Anders Sandberg 


My first guess is to program the car for collision avoidance without trying
to make value judgments regarding the objects being avoided.  The problem
here is in helping the sensors distinguishing between a baby carriage on the
sidewalk and a tumbleweed blowing across the road or a dog which bolts out
into the path.  My intuition tells me we need to write the software to stay
in the lane and brake hard, rather than trying to make split second
decisions or value judgments.

If it is any help, the auto^2 would have the potential for much faster
reaction time and greater awareness of everything nearby.  I expect the
auto^2s to greatly exceed humans in safety once they are five years on the
road.

spike



From atymes at gmail.com  Mon Jul 16 20:56:52 2012
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2012 13:56:52 -0700
Subject: [ExI] self-driving cars again
In-Reply-To: <50047CC5.3030405@aleph.se>
References: <006d01cd61e7$67be5940$373b0bc0$@att.net>
 <CAL_armhbdyNeykbNhE=zSpa3tE958837sqBvFMEV1OGetpZ3qg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPy8RwbRq0+EC+_pbiJNxKrbtwiDnLnc2P7FMwH1LWt8hPZ_XQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <006001cd6241$858f26c0$90ad7440$@att.net>
 <50047CC5.3030405@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNQHPSp6y7RfFHj9E1UbhmGbjMLpEeo5kCyppmkWEgSN6w@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jul 16, 2012 at 1:42 PM, Anders Sandberg <anders at aleph.se> wrote:
> Robotic cars will occasionally end up in situations like the trolley problem
> http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2012/06/the-google-trolley-problem.html
> - an accident is imminent,

The programming will likely reject that hypothesis.  Being in a
condition state where any action will result in your vehicle
impacting people harmfully is equal to a failure condition,
therefore, the programming tries to avoid getting into that state,
such as by not driving fast enough to prevent coming to a
complete halt within the visible distance.

> and the car(s) will need to make split second
> decisions that would have been called moral decisions if humans had made
> them.

And they may yet be for self-driving cars - but the morality
is on the part of the programmer.


From anders at aleph.se  Mon Jul 16 21:51:45 2012
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2012 22:51:45 +0100
Subject: [ExI] self-driving cars again
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNQHPSp6y7RfFHj9E1UbhmGbjMLpEeo5kCyppmkWEgSN6w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <006d01cd61e7$67be5940$373b0bc0$@att.net>
 <CAL_armhbdyNeykbNhE=zSpa3tE958837sqBvFMEV1OGetpZ3qg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPy8RwbRq0+EC+_pbiJNxKrbtwiDnLnc2P7FMwH1LWt8hPZ_XQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <006001cd6241$858f26c0$90ad7440$@att.net> <50047CC5.3030405@aleph.se>
 <CALAdGNQHPSp6y7RfFHj9E1UbhmGbjMLpEeo5kCyppmkWEgSN6w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <50048CF1.6050901@aleph.se>

On 16/07/2012 21:56, Adrian Tymes wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 16, 2012 at 1:42 PM, Anders Sandberg <anders at aleph.se> wrote:
>> Robotic cars will occasionally end up in situations like the trolley problem
>> http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2012/06/the-google-trolley-problem.html
>> - an accident is imminent,
> The programming will likely reject that hypothesis.  Being in a
> condition state where any action will result in your vehicle
> impacting people harmfully is equal to a failure condition,
> therefore, the programming tries to avoid getting into that state,
> such as by not driving fast enough to prevent coming to a
> complete halt within the visible distance.

That kind of careful programming might make it impossible to drive at all.

Applying reachability analysis to failure conditions mean that all 
states where a failure can occur due to a worst-case disturbance must 
also be avoided, and so do all states that can lead to one of them, and 
so on. What remains is the safe set. If you find yourself in the unsafe 
set you can of course apply some control strategy to get out of it as 
fast as possible - disaster is not guaranteed. But the problem remains: 
often the safe set ends up very small. This is extra true for vehicles 
dealing with an unknown environment where weird random events can 
happen. There are some current robotics work on trying to keep the 
safety guarantees from becoming too conservative ( 
http://www.roboticsproceedings.org/rss08/p11.html ) but it is not clear 
that this approach could actually work for a robotic car that should 
drive in normal traffic.

I am interested in what the system does when the careful programming has 
failed. Not adding safeguards for those states would be pretty stupid, 
even if 99.9% of the actual safety of the car comes from avoiding 
getting even close to failure states.


-- 
Anders Sandberg,
Future of Humanity Institute
Oxford Martin School
Faculty of Philosophy
Oxford University



From pharos at gmail.com  Mon Jul 16 22:27:23 2012
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2012 23:27:23 +0100
Subject: [ExI] self-driving cars again
In-Reply-To: <50048CF1.6050901@aleph.se>
References: <006d01cd61e7$67be5940$373b0bc0$@att.net>
 <CAL_armhbdyNeykbNhE=zSpa3tE958837sqBvFMEV1OGetpZ3qg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPy8RwbRq0+EC+_pbiJNxKrbtwiDnLnc2P7FMwH1LWt8hPZ_XQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <006001cd6241$858f26c0$90ad7440$@att.net>
 <50047CC5.3030405@aleph.se>
 <CALAdGNQHPSp6y7RfFHj9E1UbhmGbjMLpEeo5kCyppmkWEgSN6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <50048CF1.6050901@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <CAL_armjAqx9QqG8OsMKhMUrGSQ+zjv3OTvFpNGOQRvP_zufGAg@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jul 16, 2012 at 10:51 PM, Anders Sandberg wrote:
<snip>
> I am interested in what the system does when the careful programming has
> failed. Not adding safeguards for those states would be pretty stupid, even
> if 99.9% of the actual safety of the car comes from avoiding getting even
> close to failure states.
>
>

What the system does when a crash is inevitable is limited by the
choices available.
Basically, in a car about to crash, the choice is maximum braking and
/ or turning to minimize damage. If a crash can be avoided by driving
off road into a field, then it is not a failure situation.
Communication with other vehicles won't happen in a crash situation.
That may have occurred earlier when trying to avoid a crash. But in
failure mode it is every man for himself.
Each robot will try to minimize the damage to it's own occupants. Send
an emergency call for assistance and fire the airbags at the best
possible time.

In theory, in some circumstances it is possible that some priority
system could be considered. Like choosing the one car that could
escape the worst of the accident. But as you say, some sort of value
system would have to be programmed in. Such as, the car containing a
baby should escape. But then every driver would lie and tell their
robot that they always carried a baby in the car. When survival is at
stake, a small lie costs nothing. All the other drivers are strangers
and worth less to you than yourself and your family.


BillK


From pharos at gmail.com  Tue Jul 17 08:43:44 2012
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2012 09:43:44 +0100
Subject: [ExI] higgs boson: was RE: Naked Mole Rat.
In-Reply-To: <54A9A1241BFA41E7B831CC0374E46CE5@PCserafino>
References: <013901cd5ae7$9da67710$d8f36530$@att.net>
 <54A9A1241BFA41E7B831CC0374E46CE5@PCserafino>
Message-ID: <CAL_armgZbvLf50NduRG7nQ0ztLJ08UfB=cObnRuf-2JA6gf3bw@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jul 16, 2012 at 7:01 PM, scerir wrote:
> Dan, here it is, by Weinberg in person
> http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/14/opinion/weinberg-why-the-higgs-boson-matters.html
>
>

More speculation about the Higgs boson.
<http://www.gizmag.com/higgs-boson-cern-alternative-particle/23319/>

Quotes:
Is it or isn't it? The Higgs boson story
By Brian Dodson      22:08 July 16, 2012

The recent discovery at the Large Hadron Collider (LHC) of the
European Organization for Nuclear Research (CERN) of a massive
particle "consistent with" the predicted properties of the Higgs boson
hit the news with the force of a hurricane. But the phrase "consistent
with" suggests that the CERN observation may also be "consistent with"
other types of particle. Is it or isn't it? We're going to attempt to
clarify the situation for you.
--------------------

BillK


From nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Jul 17 16:32:41 2012
From: nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk (Tom Nowell)
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2012 17:32:41 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [ExI] cybernetic hate crime?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1342526403.20957.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.1.1342526403.20957.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <1342542761.93409.YahooMailNeo@web132102.mail.ird.yahoo.com>

http://io9.com/5926587/what-may-be-the-worlds-first-cybernetic-hate-crime-unfolds-in-french-mcdonalds?



Steve Mann, the "father of wearable computing," has been physically assaulted while visiting a McDonalds in Paris, France.
The Canadian university professor was at the restaurant with his family when three different McDonalds employees took exception to his "Digital Eye Glass" device and attempted to forcibly remove it from his head. Mann was then physically removed from the store by the employees, along with having his support documentation destroyed.
This may be the first ever recorded assault of a person instigated by the prominent display of aGoogle Glass-like wearable computer.
The incident is particularly troubling, not only because Mann's device is very similar to Google Glass, but because the assault could be a harbinger of things to come as the technology becomes increasingly prominent. Assaults such as this one may become more frequent should people (and corporations) respond poorly to the use of such devices. Details of the assault were made available by Mann on his?blog.
He, along with his wife and children, were touring the Champs Elysees area when the incident took place. After sitting down to grab a bite to eat, Mann was questioned by a McDonalds employee about the Eye Glass. Since Mann had spent the day going to museums and landmarks, he had brought a letter from his doctor along with other support documentation explaining the device.
He has worn computer vision of some kind for the past 34 years and is a pioneer in the field of wearable computing. Mann then describes what happened next:
After reviewing the documentation, the purported McDonalds employee accepted me (and my family) as a customer, and left us to place our order. In what follows, I will refer to this person as "Possible Witness 1".
>We ordered two Ranch Wraps, one burger, and one mango McFlurry, from a cashier who I will refer to as "Possible Witness 2". My daughter handled the cash to pay Possible Witness 2, as my daughter wanted to practice her French. Possible Witness 2 complimented my daughter on her fluency in French.
>Next my family and I seated ourselves in the restaurant right by the entrance, so we could watch people walking along Avenue Champs Elysees while we ate our meal.
>Subsequently another person within McDonalds physically assaulted me, while I was in McDonand's, eating my McDonald's Ranch Wrap that I had just purchased at this McDonald's. He angrily grabbed my eyeglass, and tried to pull it off my head. The eyeglass is permanently attached and does not come off my skull without special tools.
>I tried to calm him down and I showed him the letter from my doctor and the documentation I had brought with me. He (who I will refer to as Perpetrator 1) then brought me to two other persons. He was standing in the middle, right in front of me, and there was another person to my left seated at a table (who I will refer to as Perpetrator 2), and a third person to my right. The third person (who I will refer to as Perpetrator 3) was holding a broom and dustpan, and wearing a shirt with a McDonald's logo on it. The person in the center (Perpetrator 1) handed the materials I had given him to the person to my left (Perpetrator 2), while the three of them reviewed my doctor's letter and the documentation.
>After all three of them reviewed this material, and deliberated on it for some time, Perpetrator 2 angrily crumpled and ripped up the letter from my doctor. My other documentation was also destroyed by Perpetrator 1.
>I noticed that Perpetrator 1 was wearing a name tag clipped to his belt. When I looked down at it, he quickly covered it up with his hand, and pulled it off and turned it around so that it was facing inwards, so that only the blank white backside of it was then facing outwards.
>Perpetrator 1 pushed me out the door, onto the street.
Ironically, it was because of the assault that Mann was able to capture images of the McDonalds employees. The Eye Glass utilizes a system called "Augmediated Reality" which helps the wearer see better. When the computer is damaged, buffered pictures for processing remain in its memory and are not overwritten. Subsequently, Mann was able to capture images of the assault.
Mann contacted police after the incident, but "did not receive much help from them." He is hoping that the fast-food chain will repair his broken Glass, and that "McDonalds would see fit to support vision research."
The assault has already enraged a number of people who are calling for an immediate apology. Users on Reddit have been?quick to act, going so far as to publish the address and phone number of the McDonalds in question, while?Techcruch?has called for?a McDonald's boycott.
According to Andy Greenberg of?Forbes,?McDonalds has assured him?that, "that the company "[takes] the claims and feedback of our customers very seriously. We are in the process of gathering information about this situation and we ask for patience until all of the facts are known."
Mann is?no stranger to controversy?? nor to discrimination. He was once thrown out of a Wal-mart, has had run-ins with the New York City Police department and U.S. Secret Service.
(story by George Dvorsky on io9 website, Mann's blog about this is at?http://eyetap.blogspot.ca/2012/07/physical-assault-by-mcdonalds-for.html)




From pharos at gmail.com  Tue Jul 17 17:07:14 2012
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2012 18:07:14 +0100
Subject: [ExI] cybernetic hate crime?
In-Reply-To: <1342542761.93409.YahooMailNeo@web132102.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.1.1342526403.20957.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <1342542761.93409.YahooMailNeo@web132102.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armg6_WZDJUH8DodtUC+1cyK+0XeCouXUvaqH8MS-gMpCDw@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jul 17, 2012 at 5:32 PM, Tom Nowell  wrote:
> http://io9.com/5926587/what-may-be-the-worlds-first-cybernetic-hate-crime-unfolds-in-french-mcdonalds
>
> Steve Mann, the "father of wearable computing," has been physically assaulted while visiting
> a McDonalds in Paris, France.
> The Canadian university professor was at the restaurant with his family when three different
> McDonalds employees took exception to his "Digital Eye Glass" device and attempted to
> forcibly remove it from his head. Mann was then physically removed from the store by the
> employees, along with having his support documentation destroyed.
> This may be the first ever recorded assault of a person instigated by the prominent display
> of a Google Glass-like wearable computer.
>


As Schneier recently commented, we are living in a very temporary
phase of our society.

In 15 years the cameras will be invisible and everywhere. Everything
will be recorded. And I mean *everything*.
Possibly we will become a very polite society.


BillK


From sparge at gmail.com  Tue Jul 17 18:26:58 2012
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2012 14:26:58 -0400
Subject: [ExI] cybernetic hate crime?
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armg6_WZDJUH8DodtUC+1cyK+0XeCouXUvaqH8MS-gMpCDw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1342526403.20957.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <1342542761.93409.YahooMailNeo@web132102.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
 <CAL_armg6_WZDJUH8DodtUC+1cyK+0XeCouXUvaqH8MS-gMpCDw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2do18UvujHWOaBKk7VbeMCFcYWo=bOwc=14QBv2vtRJuQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jul 17, 2012 at 1:07 PM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tue, Jul 17, 2012 at 5:32 PM, Tom Nowell  wrote:
> >
> http://io9.com/5926587/what-may-be-the-worlds-first-cybernetic-hate-crime-unfolds-in-french-mcdonalds
> >
> > Steve Mann, the "father of wearable computing," has been physically
> assaulted while visiting
> > a McDonalds in Paris, France.
>

His first mistake was going to France. His second was going to McDonalds.

-Dave
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From eugen at leitl.org  Tue Jul 17 19:28:52 2012
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2012 21:28:52 +0200
Subject: [ExI] cybernetic hate crime?
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armg6_WZDJUH8DodtUC+1cyK+0XeCouXUvaqH8MS-gMpCDw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1342526403.20957.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <1342542761.93409.YahooMailNeo@web132102.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
 <CAL_armg6_WZDJUH8DodtUC+1cyK+0XeCouXUvaqH8MS-gMpCDw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120717192852.GI12615@leitl.org>

On Tue, Jul 17, 2012 at 06:07:14PM +0100, BillK wrote:

> As Schneier recently commented, we are living in a very temporary
> phase of our society.
> 
> In 15 years the cameras will be invisible and everywhere. Everything
> will be recorded. And I mean *everything*.

Right. Everything. Like the insides of embassies, Fort Meade,
corporate boardroom, arms and drugs dealers, backroom deals
in Washington, and so on. All at your fingertips. You better
believe it, and would you be interested in that prime piece
of real estate in Brooklyn, perchance?

> Possibly we will become a very polite society.

Serfs are always polite. Lords, who own their asses, less so.


From natasha at natasha.cc  Tue Jul 17 20:47:28 2012
From: natasha at natasha.cc (natasha at natasha.cc)
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2012 16:47:28 -0400
Subject: [ExI] atoms and cells - what is shared between them?
In-Reply-To: <20120717192852.GI12615@leitl.org>
References: <mailman.1.1342526403.20957.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <1342542761.93409.YahooMailNeo@web132102.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
 <CAL_armg6_WZDJUH8DodtUC+1cyK+0XeCouXUvaqH8MS-gMpCDw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120717192852.GI12615@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <20120717164728.t4kxsx4s8wgg0ksw@webmail.natasha.cc>


Greg Fahy had written:

"The final most stable state of biomolecules at the end of all  
possible degradation is, for the most part, carbon dioxide, water,  
nitrogen gas or nitrogen compounds, and sulfur compounds, with  
inorganic and trace amounts of organic minerals (Fahy 2008)."

All molecules are made of atoms which are, for the most part,  
indestructible and, thereby, immortal. *If atoms are the elemental  
components from which all cells are derived, then why does programmed  
cell death occur?*

Also, is it true that if apoptosis is a chemical process, it has no  
connection with the atomic constitutionof cells?

Any insights on thsi will be greatly appreciated.

Many thanks!
Natasha



From anders at aleph.se  Tue Jul 17 21:30:09 2012
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2012 22:30:09 +0100
Subject: [ExI] cybernetic hate crime?
In-Reply-To: <20120717192852.GI12615@leitl.org>
References: <mailman.1.1342526403.20957.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <1342542761.93409.YahooMailNeo@web132102.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
 <CAL_armg6_WZDJUH8DodtUC+1cyK+0XeCouXUvaqH8MS-gMpCDw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120717192852.GI12615@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <5005D961.10903@aleph.se>

On 17/07/2012 20:28, Eugen Leitl wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 17, 2012 at 06:07:14PM +0100, BillK wrote:
>
>> As Schneier recently commented, we are living in a very temporary
>> phase of our society.
>>
>> In 15 years the cameras will be invisible and everywhere. Everything
>> will be recorded. And I mean *everything*.
> Right. Everything. Like the insides of embassies, Fort Meade,
> corporate boardroom, arms and drugs dealers, backroom deals
> in Washington, and so on.

Well, McDonalds Champs Elysees probably viewed their environment to be 
something like this, which partially explains their behavior. Meanwhile 
professor Mann viewed his augmentation as part of his body, while they 
did not recognize this.

The whole affair is a fine demonstration of things to come. The 
fundamental problem is that our social norms about public/private, 
self/nonself, and who gets to control information flows where and about 
what are lagging behind de facto cultural and technological change.

Of course the boardrooms and drug dealers will want to control what 
recording devices are present, just like McDonalds or your mother. But 
it is not clear their enforcement abilities will be up to it, especially 
when the recording aspect becomes incorporated in many technologies they 
do want - often in both integral and non-obvious ways. Do you think the 
CEOs will be giving up their blackberries before talking shop, even 
though they might actually have a few privacy-breaking options or bugs? 
And even if some groups and environments are good at maintaining their 
privacy the bigger turmoil will be affecting them in other ways.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/arenamontanus/2110525526/


-- 
Anders Sandberg,
Future of Humanity Institute
Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University



From anders at aleph.se  Tue Jul 17 21:37:09 2012
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2012 22:37:09 +0100
Subject: [ExI] atoms and cells - what is shared between them?
In-Reply-To: <20120717164728.t4kxsx4s8wgg0ksw@webmail.natasha.cc>
References: <mailman.1.1342526403.20957.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <1342542761.93409.YahooMailNeo@web132102.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
 <CAL_armg6_WZDJUH8DodtUC+1cyK+0XeCouXUvaqH8MS-gMpCDw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120717192852.GI12615@leitl.org>
 <20120717164728.t4kxsx4s8wgg0ksw@webmail.natasha.cc>
Message-ID: <5005DB05.7000109@aleph.se>

On 17/07/2012 21:47, natasha at natasha.cc wrote:
>
> All molecules are made of atoms which are, for the most part, 
> indestructible and, thereby, immortal. *If atoms are the elemental 
> components from which all cells are derived, then why does programmed 
> cell death occur?*

Because atoms and organisms are phenomena on different levels. The fact 
that water molecules cannot show waves or disappear doesn't prevent a 
large collection like a puddle to have waves or to dry out.

Programmed cell death is an adaptation multicellular organisms use to 
construct or control their tissues. It has been favored because 
organisms with the right apoptosis programs can function well in the 
environment  and hence reproduce well. Note that there are no 
unicellular organisms with apoptosis: there survival is all about each 
cell doing well.


>
> Also, is it true that if apoptosis is a chemical process, it has no 
> connection with the atomic constitutionof cells?

Cell chemistry, especially the dynamics of proteins and signals like in 
apoptosis, is about molecules interacting - with a few chemical 
exceptions individual atoms do not occur other than as constituents of 
molecules. So if atoms disappeared but molecules behaved the same cells 
would work the same.


-- 
Anders Sandberg,
Future of Humanity Institute
Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University



From jrd1415 at gmail.com  Wed Jul 18 00:23:19 2012
From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis)
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2012 17:23:19 -0700
Subject: [ExI] cybernetic hate crime?
In-Reply-To: <1342542761.93409.YahooMailNeo@web132102.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.1.1342526403.20957.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <1342542761.93409.YahooMailNeo@web132102.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAHUTwkOsyWP2dQLiwJ6zygVi9W_RYqbYNkDWYFDygj_W4kq4gw@mail.gmail.com>

I'm suspicious.  Something's missing here.  The reason for the
"assault".   It reminds me of the kid who says so-and-so hit me, but
neglects to report how he spit in so-and-so's face first.

What "really" happened.

Jeff Davis

On Tue, Jul 17, 2012 at 9:32 AM, Tom Nowell <nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> http://io9.com/5926587/what-may-be-the-worlds-first-cybernetic-hate-crime-unfolds-in-french-mcdonalds
>
>
>
> Steve Mann, the "father of wearable computing," has been physically assaulted while visiting a McDonalds in Paris, France.
> The Canadian university professor was at the restaurant with his family when three different McDonalds employees took exception to his "Digital Eye Glass" device and attempted to forcibly remove it from his head. Mann was then physically removed from the store by the employees, along with having his support documentation destroyed.
> This may be the first ever recorded assault of a person instigated by the prominent display of aGoogle Glass-like wearable computer.
> The incident is particularly troubling, not only because Mann's device is very similar to Google Glass, but because the assault could be a harbinger of things to come as the technology becomes increasingly prominent. Assaults such as this one may become more frequent should people (and corporations) respond poorly to the use of such devices. Details of the assault were made available by Mann on his blog.
> He, along with his wife and children, were touring the Champs Elysees area when the incident took place. After sitting down to grab a bite to eat, Mann was questioned by a McDonalds employee about the Eye Glass. Since Mann had spent the day going to museums and landmarks, he had brought a letter from his doctor along with other support documentation explaining the device.
> He has worn computer vision of some kind for the past 34 years and is a pioneer in the field of wearable computing. Mann then describes what happened next:
> After reviewing the documentation, the purported McDonalds employee accepted me (and my family) as a customer, and left us to place our order. In what follows, I will refer to this person as "Possible Witness 1".
>>We ordered two Ranch Wraps, one burger, and one mango McFlurry, from a cashier who I will refer to as "Possible Witness 2". My daughter handled the cash to pay Possible Witness 2, as my daughter wanted to practice her French. Possible Witness 2 complimented my daughter on her fluency in French.
>>Next my family and I seated ourselves in the restaurant right by the entrance, so we could watch people walking along Avenue Champs Elysees while we ate our meal.
>>Subsequently another person within McDonalds physically assaulted me, while I was in McDonand's, eating my McDonald's Ranch Wrap that I had just purchased at this McDonald's. He angrily grabbed my eyeglass, and tried to pull it off my head. The eyeglass is permanently attached and does not come off my skull without special tools.
>>I tried to calm him down and I showed him the letter from my doctor and the documentation I had brought with me. He (who I will refer to as Perpetrator 1) then brought me to two other persons. He was standing in the middle, right in front of me, and there was another person to my left seated at a table (who I will refer to as Perpetrator 2), and a third person to my right. The third person (who I will refer to as Perpetrator 3) was holding a broom and dustpan, and wearing a shirt with a McDonald's logo on it. The person in the center (Perpetrator 1) handed the materials I had given him to the person to my left (Perpetrator 2), while the three of them reviewed my doctor's letter and the documentation.
>>After all three of them reviewed this material, and deliberated on it for some time, Perpetrator 2 angrily crumpled and ripped up the letter from my doctor. My other documentation was also destroyed by Perpetrator 1.
>>I noticed that Perpetrator 1 was wearing a name tag clipped to his belt. When I looked down at it, he quickly covered it up with his hand, and pulled it off and turned it around so that it was facing inwards, so that only the blank white backside of it was then facing outwards.
>>Perpetrator 1 pushed me out the door, onto the street.
> Ironically, it was because of the assault that Mann was able to capture images of the McDonalds employees. The Eye Glass utilizes a system called "Augmediated Reality" which helps the wearer see better. When the computer is damaged, buffered pictures for processing remain in its memory and are not overwritten. Subsequently, Mann was able to capture images of the assault.
> Mann contacted police after the incident, but "did not receive much help from them." He is hoping that the fast-food chain will repair his broken Glass, and that "McDonalds would see fit to support vision research."
> The assault has already enraged a number of people who are calling for an immediate apology. Users on Reddit have been quick to act, going so far as to publish the address and phone number of the McDonalds in question, while Techcruch has called for a McDonald's boycott.
> According to Andy Greenberg of Forbes, McDonalds has assured him that, "that the company "[takes] the claims and feedback of our customers very seriously. We are in the process of gathering information about this situation and we ask for patience until all of the facts are known."
> Mann is no stranger to controversy ? nor to discrimination. He was once thrown out of a Wal-mart, has had run-ins with the New York City Police department and U.S. Secret Service.
> (story by George Dvorsky on io9 website, Mann's blog about this is at http://eyetap.blogspot.ca/2012/07/physical-assault-by-mcdonalds-for.html)
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat



From anders at aleph.se  Wed Jul 18 07:55:06 2012
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2012 08:55:06 +0100
Subject: [ExI] cybernetic hate crime?
In-Reply-To: <CAHUTwkOsyWP2dQLiwJ6zygVi9W_RYqbYNkDWYFDygj_W4kq4gw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1342526403.20957.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <1342542761.93409.YahooMailNeo@web132102.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
 <CAHUTwkOsyWP2dQLiwJ6zygVi9W_RYqbYNkDWYFDygj_W4kq4gw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <50066BDA.5030208@aleph.se>

On 18/07/2012 01:23, Jeff Davis wrote:
> I'm suspicious.  Something's missing here.  The reason for the
> "assault".   It reminds me of the kid who says so-and-so hit me, but
> neglects to report how he spit in so-and-so's face first.
>
> What "really" happened.

Yes, there is plenty left out. One interesting aspect is that Mann has a 
powerful media advantage: he have documentary information he can edit 
and disseminate, and he is a darling of the digerati. Just because you 
do sousveilance doesn't mean the sousveiled information as it is 
revealed to others will be neutral. And in this case it creates an 
information asymmetry visavi the McDonalds employees. If only they had 
wearcams and blogs too...

My guess the real origin is a combination of personality, 
misunderstanding (cultural and direct) and uncertainty avoidant 
employees caught by a belief that they must enforce a recording ban that 
is on the books. While I like much of Manns work, he does have a 
tendency to put the minions of organisations in a squeeze.


-- 
Anders Sandberg,
Future of Humanity Institute
Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University



From spike66 at att.net  Wed Jul 18 13:00:56 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2012 06:00:56 -0700
Subject: [ExI] cybernetic hate crime?
In-Reply-To: <CAHUTwkOsyWP2dQLiwJ6zygVi9W_RYqbYNkDWYFDygj_W4kq4gw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1342526403.20957.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <1342542761.93409.YahooMailNeo@web132102.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
 <CAHUTwkOsyWP2dQLiwJ6zygVi9W_RYqbYNkDWYFDygj_W4kq4gw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00a201cd64e5$5fa6aea0$1ef40be0$@att.net>



On Behalf Of Jeff Davis
Subject: Re: [ExI] cybernetic hate crime?

>...I'm suspicious.  Something's missing here.  The reason for the
"assault".   It reminds me of the kid who says so-and-so hit me, but
neglects to report how he spit in so-and-so's face first.

What "really" happened.

Jeff Davis

On Tue, Jul 17, 2012 at 9:32 AM, Tom Nowell <nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
http://io9.com/5926587/what-may-be-the-worlds-first-cybernetic-hate-crime-un
folds-in-french-mcdonalds
>
>
>
>> Steve Mann, the "father of wearable computing," has been physically
assaulted while visiting a McDonalds in Paris, France...

Oy vey, I had the same feeling when I read the story, that big important
pieces of it were missing.  Whenever two or more people's behavior defies
explanation, we are only getting one point of view.   (Claimer: I am a big
fan of wearable computers, and likely will take Mann's side when in doubt,
so feel free to multiply through by that factor, and secondly, why do we
have disclaimers without claimers?  What is the opposite of a disclaimer?)

Steve says the restaurant employees questioned him, then, apparently
satisfied, they allowed him to order food, and it sounds like he received
the order and was devouring same, when THREE perpetrators, actual McDonald's
employees, who are trained to be cool with everything, retroactively
approached him, attempted to remove his devices (is that bizarre or what?),
discovered they were surgically attached, then hurled him onto the street,
at which time he apparently urinated in his clothing, causing various
devices to short circuit.

This story, as written, is not believable, and wouldn't hold up in court.
That bit about having to use the restroom when the three perps attacked
stretches my imagination.  If one is sitting down to a meal, one gets
comfortable first, ja?  And just being hurled out of a McDonald's wouldn't
necessarily cause self-urination.  This has never happened to me in all the
times I have been hurled out of a McDonald's.  But why is the part about
needing to use the restroom relevant to the story in any case?

I would like to hear an account by the three former McDonald's employees on
what happened in that fine dining establishment.  I cannot even imagine any
justification for any employee attempting to physically remove the device,
and their (presumed) firing is amply appropriate.  However it is easy for me
to imagine that they were by some means provoked.  I am not arguing in their
favor: the three Frog hamburger flippers should not be given their jobs
back.  But Steve needs to offer a bit more explanation for why he thinks the
three perps decided to attempt to remove his devices, other than their claim
that photography is not allowed in their establishment (which in general is
not true; I never saw a No Photography sign in a restaurant.)  Perhaps a
customer reported that Steve went into the restroom and was apparently
taking pictures in there, perhaps for posting realtime on the internet?  If
so, this is an important part of the story.  

The reason I write about this is that it is easy to imagine these kinds of
devices becoming common soon, since memory has rather suddenly become cheap
enough and power-frugal enough that wearable computers can do a lot of
useful tasks.  As a society, we need to get over the fact that anyone can
digitally record anything we do in public.

spike



From eugen at leitl.org  Wed Jul 18 13:18:53 2012
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2012 15:18:53 +0200
Subject: [ExI] [tt] The Strange Neuroscience of Immortality
Message-ID: <20120718131853.GG12615@leitl.org>

----- Forwarded message from Eugen Leitl <eugen at leitl.org> -----

From: Eugen Leitl <eugen at leitl.org>
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2012 14:56:10 +0200
To: tt at postbiota.org, foundation-volunteers at googlegroups.com,
	neuro at postbiota.org, cryo at postbiota.org,
	New_Cryonet at yahoogroups.com,
	Gerontology Research Group <grg at lists.ucla.edu>
Subject: [tt] The Strange Neuroscience of Immortality
User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17)


http://chronicle.com/article/The-Strange-Neuroscience-of/132819/

July 16, 2012

The Strange Neuroscience of Immortality

By Evan R. Goldstein

Cambridge, Mass.

The Strange Neuroscience of Immortality 2

Illustrations by Harry Campbell for The Chronicle Review

In the basement of the Northwest Science Building here at Harvard University,
a locked door is marked with a pink and yellow sign: "Caution: Radioactive
Material." Inside researchers buzz around wearing dour expressions and
plastic gloves. Among them is Kenneth Hayworth. He's tall and gaunt, dressed
in dark-blue jeans, a blue polo shirt, and gray running shoes. He looks like
someone who sleeps little and eats less.

Hayworth has spent much of the past few years in a windowless room carving
brains into very thin slices. He is by all accounts a curious man, known for
casually saying things like, "The human race is on a beeline to mind
uploading: We will preserve a brain, slice it up, simulate it on a computer,
and hook it up to a robot body." He wants that brain to be his brain. He
wants his 100 billion neurons and more than 100 trillion synapses to be
encased in a block of transparent, amber-colored resin?before he dies of
natural causes.

Why? Ken Hayworth believes that he can live forever.

But first he has to die.

"If your body stops functioning, it starts to eat itself," he explains to me
one drab morning this spring, "so you have to shut down the enzymes that
destroy the tissue." If all goes according to plan, he says cheerfully, "I'll
be a perfect fossil." Then one day, not too long from now, his consciousness
will be revived on a computer. By 2110, Hayworth predicts, mind uploading?the
transfer of a biological brain to a silicon-based operating system?will be as
common as laser eye surgery is today.

It's the kind of scheme you expect to encounter in science fiction, not an
Ivy League laboratory. But little is conventional about Hayworth, 41, a
veteran of NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory and a self-described
"outlandishly futuristic thinker." While a graduate student at the University
of Southern California, he built a machine in his garage that changed the way
brain tissue is cut and imaged in electron microscopes. The combination of
technical smarts and entrepreneurial gumption earned him a grant from the
McKnight Endowment Fund for Neuroscience, a subsidiary of the McKnight
Foundation, and an invitation to Harvard, where he stayed, on a postdoctoral
fellowship, until April.

To understand why Hayworth wants to plastinate his own brain you have to
understand his field?connectomics, a new branch of neuroscience. A connectome
is a complete map of a brain's neural circuitry. Some scientists believe that
human connectomes will one day explain consciousness, memory, emotion, even
diseases like autism, schizophrenia, and Alzheimer's?the cures for which
might be akin to repairing a wiring error. In 2010 the National Institutes of
Health established the Human Connectome Project, a $40-million,
multi-institution effort to study the field's medical potential.

Among some connectomics scholars, there is a grand theory: We are our
connectomes. Our unique selves?the way we think, act, feel?is etched into the
wiring of our brains. Unlike genomes, which never change, connectomes are
forever being molded and remolded by life experience. Sebastian Seung, a
professor of computational neuroscience at the Massachusetts Institute of
Technology and a prominent proponent of the grand theory, describes the
connectome as the place where "nature meets nurture."

Hayworth takes this theory a few steps further. He looks at the growth of
connectomics?especially advances in brain preservation, tissue imaging, and
computer simulations of neural networks?and sees something else: a cure for
death. In a new paper in the International Journal of Machine Consciousness,
he argues that mind uploading is an "enormous engineering challenge" but one
that can be accomplished without "radically new science and technologies."

"There are those who say that death is just part of the human condition, so
we should embrace it. 'I'm not one of those people'"

That is not a prevailing view. Many scholars regard Hayworth's belief in
immortality as, at best, an eccentric diversion, too silly to take seriously.
"I'm going to pretend you didn't ask me that," J. Anthony Movshon, a
professor of neural science and psychology at New York University, snapped
when I raised the subject.

But to Hayworth, science is about overturning expectations: "If 100 years ago
someone said that we'd have satellites in orbit and little boxes on our desks
that can communicate across the world, they would have sounded very
outlandish." One hundred years from now, he believes, our descendants will
not understand how so many of us failed for so long to embrace immortality.
In an unpublished essay, "Killed by Bad Philosophy," he writes, "Our
grandchildren will say that we died not because of heart disease, cancer, or
stroke, but instead that we died pathetically out of ignorance and
superstition"?by which he means the belief that there is something
fundamentally unknowable about consciousness, and that therefore it can never
be replicated on a computer.

Hayworth knows he's courting ridicule. Talk of immortality has long been
banished to the margins of intellectual life, to specialized circles on the
Internet and places like Scottsdale, Ariz., home of the Alcor Life Extension
Foundation, a focal point of the cryonics movement. (Hayworth has been a
member of Alcor, if a skeptical one, since the mid-1990s.) In the popular
mind, the quest to defeat death has become the stuff of late-night comedy (if
you don't know about Ted Williams's head, Google it), not serious science.

So where does that leave Hayworth, an iconoclast with legitimate research
credentials? Academe is an uneasy fit. His ideas are taboo and often ignored.
(Just try getting a grant to study mind uploading.) Harvard has distanced
itself from Hayworth, and a colleague at the Howard Hughes Medical
Institute's Janelia Farm Research Campus, in Ashburn, Va.?a center of
connectomics scholarship, where Hayworth recently started as a senior
scientist?told him that his interest in brain preservation and mind uploading
is "a significant negative," to the point that it delayed his hiring.

But Hayworth seems unfazed, confident in the march of progress. "We've had a
lot of breakthroughs?genomics, space flight?but those are trivial in
comparison to mind uploading," he told me recently. "This will be
earth-shattering because it will open up possibilities we've never dreamed
of." Perhaps sensing my skepticism, he added, "Other neuroscientists will
come around when they see the massive amounts of connectome data that we're
generating, and they'll say, 'Wow, the future has arrived.'"

***

Connectomics is a new way of looking at an old idea. Since the mid-19th
century, scientists have known that the brain comprises a dense web of
neurons. Only recently, however, have they been able to get a detailed
glimpse. The view is daunting. A piece of human brain tissue the size of a
thimble contains around 50 million neurons and close to a trillion synapses.
Scientists compare the task of tracing each connection to untangling a
heaping plate of microscopically thin spaghetti.

In 1986, researchers did manage to map the nervous system of a
millimeter-long soil worm known as C. elegans. Though the creature has only
302 neurons and 7,000 synapses, the project took a dozen years. (The lead
scientist, Sydney Brenner, who won a Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine in
2002, is also at Janelia Farm.) C. elegans's remains the only connectome ever
completed. According to one projection, if the same techniques were used to
map just one cubic millimeter of human cortex, it could take a million
person-years.

In 2010, Jeff Lichtman, a professor of molecular and cellular biology at
Harvard and a leading light in connectomics, and Narayanan Kasthuri, also of
Harvard, published a small paper full of big numbers. Based on their
estimates, a human connectome would generate one trillion gigabytes of raw
data. By comparison, the entire Human Genome Project requires only a few
gigabytes. A human connectome would be the most complicated map the world has
ever seen.  The Strange Neuroscience of Immortality 1

Yet it could be a reality before the end of the century, if not sooner,
thanks to new technologies that "automate the process of seeing smaller," as
Sebastian Seung puts it in his new book, Connectome: How The Brain's Wiring
Makes Us Who We Are (Houghton Mifflin Harcourt). "Neuroscience has not yet
been able to deliver on the idea of understanding the brain as a bunch of
neurons because our tools have been too crude," he explains in an interview.
"But now there's a new optimism that we can deliver on that promise."

One source of optimism resides on a counter in a small room in the corner of
the Harvard lab. It's about the size of a sewing machine, and it's called an
ultramicrotome. Such devices have been in use for decades. This one, however,
is tricked out with enhancements that Hayworth began developing years ago in
his garage.

Perched on a stool, he talks me through how it works. A tiny diamond blade
shaves tissue samples into slices as thin as 30 nanometers?more than a
thousandth as thin as a human hair. The slices are then brought to another
part of the lab and imaged in an electron microscope. Stack up a few hundred
or thousands of these pictures and you get a high-resolution,
three-dimensional view of a neural network?the building blocks of a
connectome.

Ultramicrotome slices have traditionally been collected manually, which was
slow going and error-prone. Hayworth transformed the process. He shows me how
slices are now automatically affixed to a spool of white, carbon-coated tape.
Along with Richard Schalek, a colleague at Harvard's Center for Brain
Science, Hayworth started a company, Synaptoscopics, to spread this
innovation to other labs.

Thus far, tape-collection devices have been installed at several
institutions, including Columbia, MIT, Harvard Medical School, and the Albert
Einstein College of Medicine, at Yeshiva University. Hayworth and Schalek
recently traveled to Vienna to meet with engineers from the microscope maker
Leica Microsystems, which is interested in adding Hayworth's device to its
product line.

The idea for the machine came to Hayworth when he was working at the Jet
Propulsion Laboratory. It was his first job after graduating from the
University of California at Los Angeles with a degree in computer science. He
designed gyroscopes to orient spacecraft. Most of his dozen or so patents?he
can't recall the exact number?originated at NASA. Don't be too impressed, he
says: "I've made zero money on all of them so far."

Hayworth left the space agency in 2003 to begin graduate studies at the
University of Southern California. "It was immediately clear to everyone in
the department that Ken is an extraordinary engineer, scientist, and deep,
creative thinker," says Irving Biederman, a professor of neuroscience there.
But when Hayworth shopped his design for an automated brain slicer among the
faculty, no one was interested. So he joined Biederman's lab, conducting fMRI
research on the human visual system. At night and on weekends, he tinkered in
his garage. Six months and $10,000 of his own money later, he had a crude but
functional prototype, which Biederman took to calling "the apple peeler."

Hayworth put up a slapdash Web site with photos and, as he puts it, "a grand
vision of where I wanted this to go." He also sent a blind e-mail to John
Fiala, then a research assistant professor of neuroscience at Boston
University. Fiala had written a paper in 2002 calling for fresh approaches to
imaging entire brains?fly, mouse, eventually human. It made a big impression
on Hayworth. Fiala passed a link to Hayworth's Web site to Jeff Lichtman, at
Harvard. Not long after, out of the blue, Hayworth received a call. "It was
crazy," he says. "Jeff wanted to fly me out to Harvard to give a talk."

It didn't go well. "Ken's ideas met with skepticism and even derision,"
recalls Fiala, who was at the meeting. But Lichtman flew Hayworth out a
second time to meet with a group of electron-microscope specialists. "I'd
never even used an electron microscope," Hayworth says with a snort. "I'd
read all the papers and tried to figure out what was required, but I had no
leg to stand on." He shakes his head. "It was intimidating."

Hayworth says that Lichtman remained skeptical but agreed to jointly apply
for a grant from the McKnight Endowment Fund for Neuroscience. In 2005 they
received $200,000 to further develop the brain-slicing prototype. More funds
soon followed. Hayworth began to split his time between Los Angeles and
Boston, between USC and Harvard, between cognitive neuroscience and
connectomics. His wife and two young sons remained in Los Angeles. "Ken did
the equivalent of two dissertations in two different fields," says Biederman.

Hayworth received his Ph.D. in 2009 and joined Lichtman's lab full time.
Discussing their collaboration with The New York Times a few years ago,
Lichtman said, "Ken reminded me of Scotty from Star Trek. I just kept asking
for more juice?pushing him like a psychopath to slice thinner and thinner."
(Lichtman did not respond to e-mails requesting an interview.)

You have to wonder: Why didn't Fiala dismiss Hayworth as a na?ve crank? After
all, at the time, Hayworth was an unknown grad student working out of his
garage. Asked to explain, Fiala, who has since left academe, quotes Eric
Kandel's autobiography, In Search of Memory, in which the Nobel-winning
neuroscientist attributes his own early success to plucking the "low-hanging
fruit." As Fiala told me, "If Ken achieves a comparable amount of success, it
will be because he went after the highest fruit in the tree at the start of
his career." To put it another way, Hayworth was too audacious to ignore.

***

After a tour of the Harvard lab, Hayworth and I end up in a quiet room. Just
a laptop, another ultramicrotome, and some tools strewn across two
workbenches. Hayworth closes the door and pulls up two chairs. We talk about
the one-bedroom apartment he rents near the campus, his Roman Catholic
upbringing and later embrace of atheism, and his hope to one day visit Mars.

Then he leans in close. "I'm pissed at the human condition. We have a very
short life span. Maybe there are strong people who say, 'That's just the
human condition, we should embrace it.' I'm not one of those people."

He goes on: "You're going to become old and frail. At some point you'll be so
old and so frail that you'll stop caring. You'll say"?his voice rises a
register?"'Death, I don't know why I didn't embrace you a long time ago.'" He
takes a deep breath. "I want to give people the option to hit pause. It's not
suicide," he says, stressing each syllable. "It's a pause. You can tell your
family members, 'I'm pretty sure I'll see you on the other side.' That's the
difference." He thrusts a finger into the air. "This isn't cryonics, where
maybe you have a .001 percent chance of surviving. We've got a good
scientific case for brain preservation and mind uploading."

That case is deeply speculative. Here's how Hayworth envisions his own
brain-preservation procedure. Before becoming "very sick or very old," he'll
opt for an "early 'retirement' to the future," he writes. There will be a
send-off party with friends and family, followed by a trip to the hospital.
"I'm not going in for some back-alley situation. We need to get the science
right to convince the medical community. It's a very clear dividing line: I
will not advocate any technique until we have good proof that it works."

After Hayworth is placed under anesthesia, a cocktail of toxic chemicals will
be perfused through his still-functioning vascular system, fixing every
protein and lipid in his brain into place, preventing decay, and killing him
instantly. Then he will be injected with heavy-metal staining solutions to
make his cell membranes visible under a microscope. All of the water will
then be drained from his brain and spinal cord, replaced by pure plastic
resin. Every neuron and synapse in his central nervous system will be
protected down to the nanometer level, Hayworth says, "the most perfectly
preserved fossil imaginable."

His plastic-embedded brain will eventually be cut into strips, perhaps using
a machine like the one he invented, and then imaged in an electron
microscope. His physical brain will be destroyed, but in its place will be a
precise map of his connectome. In 100 years or so, he says, scientists will
be able to determine the function of each neuron and synapse and build a
computer simulation of his mind. And because the plastination process will
have preserved his spinal nerves, he's hopeful that his computer-generated
mind can be connected to a robot body.

"This is not something everyone would want to do," Hayworth allows. "But it's
something everyone should have the right to do."

***

Hayworth might sound arrogant, but he doesn't come across that way in person.
His demeanor is a strange mix of intellectual hubris and personal modesty.
Indeed, he has a winningly wry, self-deprecating charm. He sometimes prefaces
his out-there statements with a disclaimer: "This is going to sound
grandiose, I apologize." He jokes that his ideas seem like they were cooked
up late at night on Art Bell's radio show.

It's a funny line that suggests a serious question: Should we take Hayworth
seriously? Mainstream science, it seems, does not. But the skepticism of his
colleagues isn't what most frustrates him. It's their indifference. "People
should be skeptical," he says, "but why aren't we firing papers back and
forth arguing about why brain preservation or mind uploading won't work?" He
drops his head in his hands. "This is what shakes me the most. I'm a big
believer in the scientific process?peer review, grant procedures?and to see
these questions go unpursued is just, is just ... " He trails off. "Something
is wrong with this situation."

A few years ago, in an effort to pry open the scientific mind, Hayworth
founded the Brain Preservation Foundation. Its central mission is to promote
research into whole-brain preservation and ensure that any breakthroughs are
legally available. The foundation has published a Brain Preservation Bill of
Rights on its Web site. "It is our individual unalienable right to choose
death, or to choose the possibility of further life for our memories or
identity, as desired," the document declares.

"Under the appropriate conditions, it must also be our right to choose to
undergo an uncertain medical procedure which may indeed shorten our life, but
which we believe has the possibility of greatly extending it, in quality as
well as in duration." In a footnote, Hayworth likens the struggle to legalize
brain preservation to the battle for abortion rights.

The foundation's most significant initiative is a cash prize?currently
$106,720, as donations are solicited?for the first individual or team to
preserve the connectome of a large mammal. Announcing the prize in Cryonics
magazine, published by Alcor, Hayworth challenged his generation of
scientists to "re-evaluate what is possible, to move beyond the expectations
of their parents and grandparents and look at the problem with a fresh
perspective."

For now there are two top contenders for the prize: 21st Century Medicine, a
cryobiology company in California, and Shawn Mikula, a postdoc at the Max
Planck Institute for Medical Research, in Heidelberg, Germany, a major center
of connectomics scholarship. A dependable brain-preservation protocol is
possible within five years, Hayworth says. "We might have a whole mouse brain
preserved very soon."

Current methods of preserving brain tissue, an intensely fragile substance,
top out at around one cubic millimeter?far, far short of an entire human
brain. At the Harvard lab, Hayworth and his colleagues use a technique that
has been around for decades. They cut open the chest of a live mouse and
insert a needle into the left ventricle. A series of solutions and chemicals
are injected into the mouse's vasculature. The operation is well established
but still unpredictable. "When we do brain-tissue perfusions, there is a
stack of five mice that have gone bad," Hayworth says. "They just didn't work
for one reason or another."

"Visioneers have ideas that stand out there as something to be looked at,
maybe shot down, proven or disproven, but they are part of the process of
staking out where the frontier of science is."

The advisory board of the Brain Preservation Foundation includes several
prominent thinkers. Among them are Sebastian Seung; Olaf Sporns, a
neuroscientist at the University of Indiana at Bloomington, who, in 2005,
gave connectomics its name; Gregory Stock, a former director of UCLA's
Program on Medicine, Technology and Society; David Eagleman, a neuroscientist
at Baylor College of Medicine; and Michael Shermer, founding publisher of
Skeptic magazine, a keep-them-honest quarterly that tries to distinguish
science from pseudoscience.

Some board members insist that they don't share all of Hayworth's views.
Sporns, for example, says he joined the group because there is a need in
neuroscience for better brain-preservation techniques. About mind uploading,
however, he's dubious. "It's a fundamentally flawed idea," he says, running
through a litany of technical objections. But after a few minutes, Sporns
takes a different tack: "Science has tremendous self-correcting mechanisms.
Truly crazy ideas never go far, but unconventional ideas do sometimes push
forward the boundaries of knowledge. So I salute Ken's courage and hope he
continues to push the envelope."

W. Patrick McCray, a historian of science at the University of California at
Santa Barbara, has a name for people like Hayworth: visioneers. In a
forthcoming book from Princeton University Press, McCray describes visioneers
as technology-minded, entrepreneurial futurists who propose radical, even
heretical ideas. What distinguishes a visioneer from your average arm-waving
crank?or politician?hollering about moon colonies? Expertise and credibility,
says McCray. "When a skilled physicist offers a detailed design and shows you
the numbers, you might conclude that space colonies are not economically or
politically possible, but maybe they're technically possible."

He adds: "Visioneers have ideas that stand out there as something to be
looked at, maybe shot down, proven or disproven, but they are part of the
process of staking out where the frontier of science is."

These days Hayworth has a more quotidian concern on his mind: money. The
Brain Preservation Foundation has no headquarters, operating budget, or
endowment, just a handful of volunteers and a sticker on Hayworth's home
mailbox. A few months ago, the IRS granted the foundation nonprofit status.
The process took longer than expected. "They seemed confused by the concept,"
Hayworth explains with a grin. Donations have not been rolling in.

He has tried to rally deep-pocketed allies to the cause. Before creating the
foundation he met with Peter Diamandis, founder of the X Prize Foundation,
which offers cash to entrepreneurs who achieve big goals, like building a
mobile device that would allow people to diagnose their own diseases.
Hayworth, who tried to persuade him to establish a brain-preservation X
Prize, came away with the impression that the issue is "too hot" for
Diamandis's corporate sponsors. More recently Hayworth met with
representatives of Peter Thiel, a founder of PayPal and biotech entrepreneur.
Hayworth was told that Thiel is interested in his ideas, but thus far not
much has come of it.

"This is not a cheap endeavor," Hayworth says, noting the strain on his
personal finances. "It's a bottomless pit." (Most of the foundation's
prize-money fund comes from an anonymous $100,000 pledge.) But given his
druthers, he adds, "I would take every bit of money I have and can get my
hands on and throw it at some science project."

***

"Mind uploading is part of the zeitgeist," says Sebastian Seung. "People have
become believers in virtual worlds because of their experience with
computers. That makes them more willing to consider far-out ideas." We're in
Seung's lab at MIT. He's dressed in black sneakers and a white T-shirt with a
sentence from his book, Connectome, emblazoned across the chest: "The neuron
is my second favorite cell." (Seung's favorite cell: sperm.)

Connectome comes adorned with praise?"page-turner," "path-breaking
neuroscientist"?from big-name scholars like Michael S. Gazzaniga and Steven
Strogatz. The book is full of bold speculations: that mapping connectomes
might cure mental disorders, improve cognition, explain how memories form.
Connectomes, Seung writes, will "dominate our thinking about what it means to
be human."

The last two chapters?"To Freeze or to Pickle?" and "Save As ..."?are devoted
to what he calls the "logical extreme" of connectomics: cryonics and mind
uploading. "There is only one truly interesting problem in science and
technology," Seung writes, "and that is immortality."

His tone, in the book and in conversation, is that of an open-minded skeptic.
Of brain preservation, he says simply, "it's possible" but not imminent. As
for immortality, he's quite sure that he'll die, just as we all will. The
discussion about these issues has reached an impasse, he explains. Until
someone dead is brought back to life, "it's just your word against mine, a
philosophical debate." But connectomics can provide a way forward, he says.
"We can't prove immortality is possible, but we can disprove it. And once you
provide the potential for an idea to be disproved, it can become part of
scientific discourse."

Seung proposes a two-part test. First, is it true that we are our
connectomes? Second, does cryonics or chemical brain preservation keep the
connectome intact? If either statement is false, then freezing or uploading
can't work. If both statements are true, immortality isn't in the offing, he
cautions, but it's at least plausible. "Some colleagues may think this is all
kind of crazy," he says, "but these questions can be addressed in an
intellectually rigorous way."

For now, however, "I am my connectome" is an untestable hypothesis, and some
within the field bristle at the notion. "There is a relationship between
aspects of connectivity and personality and behavior, but I am not my
connectome," says Olaf Sporns. "If I had a complete map of your circuits, I
wouldn't be able to read it like a book."

The speculative frenzy in connectomics reminds him of the buzz about genomics
in the 1980s and 90s: "People thought it would explain who you are, but it
didn't turn out that way." Genomics did revolutionize science, however, and
connectomics might do the same. "It's difficult to imagine doing biology
without knowledge of the genome," says Sporns, who is writing a book about
connectomics for MIT Press. "We have a similar need in neuroscience for a
foundation to ask better questions. The connectome could be that foundation."

J. Anthony Movshon, of NYU, takes a dimmer view. More than 25 years after the
C. elegans connectome was completed, he says, we have only a faint
understanding of the worm's nervous system. "We know it has sensory neurons
that drive the muscles and tell the worm to move this way or that. And we've
discovered that some chemicals cause one response and other chemicals cause
the opposite response. Yet the same circuit carries both signals." He scoffs,
"How can the connectome explain that?"

Movshon, who has debated Seung in public, sums his argument up like this:
"Our brains are not the pattern of connections they contain, but the signals
that pass along those connections."

The Baylor neuroscientist David Eagleman offers an analogy. Suppose that an
alien creates a perfect street map of Manhattan. Would that explain how
Manhattan functions and what makes it unique? To answer those questions, he
says, the alien would need to see what's happening inside those buildings,
how people are interacting. Dropping the analogy, Eagleman says, "Maybe we
need to know the states of the individual proteins, their exact spatial
distributions, how they articulate with neighboring proteins, and so on." To
understand the brain well enough to copy it, neurons might be insufficient.

"Neuroscience is obsessed with neurons because our best technology allows us
to measure them," Eagleman says. "But each individual neuron is in fact as
complicated as a city, with millions of proteins inside of it, trafficking
and interacting in extraordinarily complex biochemical cascades."

***

Hayworth left Harvard in April. He says he was lured to Janelia Farm by a new
approach to brain imaging that uses a focused ion beam instead of a diamond
blade. "This technology could, with an Apollo or Manhattan Project budget,
map an entire human brain," he says. "It's capable of a resolution for mind
uploading." The immediate goal is more modest. Hayworth and his colleagues
want to find the connectome of a fly.

Asked if he'd rather have stayed on at Jeff Lichtman's lab at Harvard,
Hayworth says there was no discussion of moving him into a permanent role.
"It's not easy to transition directly from a postdoc into an academic
position at Harvard." Even so, his departure raises a question: Did his
unorthodox views diminish his job prospects? He doesn't think so.

"I tried to not get Jeff in trouble," he says, insisting that he kept his
brain-preservation work separate from his official duties at the lab. But
there was the potential for awkwardness. Last year Hayworth agreed to
participate in a Discovery Channel show about immortality. The interview had
to take place in Los Angeles because Lichtman would not allow Hayworth to be
filmed on the campus or be identified with Harvard.

Hayworth says that he is uninterested in being a public figure, but that
someone needs to be out front pushing these ideas. "It is not yet possible
for a scientist to say that one of the end goals of connectomics is mind
uploading, and one of the possible applications of chemical brain
preservation is as a medical technique to preserve people after they die," he
tells me. "I'm willing to put my career on the line to create space for
dialogue and research on this issue."

My conversations with Hayworth took place over several months, and I was
struck by how his optimism often gave way to despair. "I've become jaded
about whether brain preservation will happen in my lifetime," he told me at
one point. "I see how much pushback I get. Even most neuroscientists seem to
believe that there is something magical about consciousness?that if the brain
stops, the magic leaves, and if the magic leaves, you can't bring the magic
back."

I asked him if the scope of his ambitions ever gives him pause. If he could
achieve immortality, might it usher in a new set of problems, problems that
we can't even imagine?

"Here's what could happen," he said. "We're going to understand how the brain
works like we now understand how a computer works. At some point, we might
realize that the stuff we hold onto as human beings?the idea of the self, the
role of mortality, the meaning of existence?is fundamentally wrong."

Lowering his voice, he continued. "It may be that we learn so much that we
lose part of our humanity because we know too much." He thought this over for
a long moment. "I try not to go too far down that road," he said at last,
"because I feel that I would go mad."

Evan R. Goldstein is managing editor of The Chronicle Review.

_______________________________________________
tt mailing list
tt at postbiota.org
http://postbiota.org/mailman/listinfo/tt

----- End forwarded message -----
-- 
Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE


From dan_ust at yahoo.com  Wed Jul 18 17:30:25 2012
From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan Ust)
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2012 13:30:25 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Evolution: The birth of new genes
Message-ID: <2D783261-D8E9-43D6-8EE3-704AFE735E9D@yahoo.com>

http://www.nature.com/nrg/journal/v13/n8/full/nrg3287.html

Abstract:

"This paper presents and tests a model for the evolution of new genes from non-genic sequences."

Regards,

Dan
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From dan_ust at yahoo.com  Wed Jul 18 21:08:27 2012
From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan)
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2012 14:08:27 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Deep carbon export from a Southern Ocean iron-fertilized
	diatom bloom
Message-ID: <1342645707.17438.YahooMailNeo@web160601.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v487/n7407/full/nature11229.html

Just from the abstract, seems to confirm one possible way to deal with excessive carbon dioxide in the atmosphere.

Regards,

Dan
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From msd001 at gmail.com  Wed Jul 18 22:54:31 2012
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2012 18:54:31 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Deep carbon export from a Southern Ocean iron-fertilized
 diatom bloom
In-Reply-To: <1342645707.17438.YahooMailNeo@web160601.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <1342645707.17438.YahooMailNeo@web160601.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAOJFdbKCVH5_5AqMP1UoPw7q7bC7T7i3gL0QEdXzSWBF38+frw@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jul 18, 2012 at 5:08 PM, Dan <dan_ust at yahoo.com> wrote:
> http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v487/n7407/full/nature11229.html
>
> Just from the abstract, seems to confirm one possible way to deal with
> excessive carbon dioxide in the atmosphere.

Interestingly, we'll likely become so good at converting co2 to fuels
that we'll be sucking that sludge up from the ocean floor to get the
carbon out of it.  (or we won't, but then it hardly matters)


From msd001 at gmail.com  Wed Jul 18 22:36:52 2012
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2012 18:36:52 -0400
Subject: [ExI] cybernetic hate crime?
In-Reply-To: <00a201cd64e5$5fa6aea0$1ef40be0$@att.net>
References: <mailman.1.1342526403.20957.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <1342542761.93409.YahooMailNeo@web132102.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
 <CAHUTwkOsyWP2dQLiwJ6zygVi9W_RYqbYNkDWYFDygj_W4kq4gw@mail.gmail.com>
 <00a201cd64e5$5fa6aea0$1ef40be0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAOJFdbK6-aq5-tDbcPoeSVR7PN1WjmTPsfsntp7XkQdbh0NH-Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jul 18, 2012 at 9:00 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> The reason I write about this is that it is easy to imagine these kinds of
> devices becoming common soon, since memory has rather suddenly become cheap
> enough and power-frugal enough that wearable computers can do a lot of
> useful tasks.  As a society, we need to get over the fact that anyone can
> digitally record anything we do in public.

I understand the surgical interface may be a requirement for full
integration with biology, but it seems this kind of abuse would make
obvious that a break-away design would be a wise feature.  I think it
makes more sense to degrade gracefully all the way to "no signal" than
to risk imminent death from a violent disconnect.  (Not saying that
was true of this case but in general)


From atymes at gmail.com  Thu Jul 19 02:24:48 2012
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2012 19:24:48 -0700
Subject: [ExI] An infographic about the TSA
Message-ID: <CALAdGNQm9=o=RiVbFYM0K-FLasuLzzkvQeseOWmmbgZRZ2VXSw@mail.gmail.com>

http://floorgem.com/blog/infographic-tsa-grope-pillage/

It speaks for itself.


From kellycoinguy at gmail.com  Thu Jul 19 06:32:26 2012
From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2012 00:32:26 -0600
Subject: [ExI] An infographic about the TSA
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNQm9=o=RiVbFYM0K-FLasuLzzkvQeseOWmmbgZRZ2VXSw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALAdGNQm9=o=RiVbFYM0K-FLasuLzzkvQeseOWmmbgZRZ2VXSw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPy8RwbjFaGH5BXDTyj6=t1nFd+sFiFs40mLOtsxTE5idKY_4g@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jul 18, 2012 at 8:24 PM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:
> http://floorgem.com/blog/infographic-tsa-grope-pillage/
>
> It speaks for itself.

The sad thing is just how predictable everything on that graphic was
from day one.

-Kelly


From eugen at leitl.org  Thu Jul 19 08:30:42 2012
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2012 10:30:42 +0200
Subject: [ExI] cybernetic hate crime?
In-Reply-To: <CAOJFdbK6-aq5-tDbcPoeSVR7PN1WjmTPsfsntp7XkQdbh0NH-Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1342526403.20957.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <1342542761.93409.YahooMailNeo@web132102.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
 <CAHUTwkOsyWP2dQLiwJ6zygVi9W_RYqbYNkDWYFDygj_W4kq4gw@mail.gmail.com>
 <00a201cd64e5$5fa6aea0$1ef40be0$@att.net>
 <CAOJFdbK6-aq5-tDbcPoeSVR7PN1WjmTPsfsntp7XkQdbh0NH-Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120719083042.GT12615@leitl.org>

On Wed, Jul 18, 2012 at 06:36:52PM -0400, Mike Dougherty wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 18, 2012 at 9:00 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> > The reason I write about this is that it is easy to imagine these kinds of
> > devices becoming common soon, since memory has rather suddenly become cheap
> > enough and power-frugal enough that wearable computers can do a lot of
> > useful tasks.  As a society, we need to get over the fact that anyone can
> > digitally record anything we do in public.

The only reason I'm not recording at least my commute is expense of
a FullHD sports camera. I expect to record continuously and push it
into the cloud as soon as Google glasses or a similiar product will 
become available (2013 or 2014). 
 
> I understand the surgical interface may be a requirement for full
> integration with biology, but it seems this kind of abuse would make
> obvious that a break-away design would be a wise feature.  I think it

In general if you're recording and wearing a HUD with I/O
capability you can also have highly targetable defense systems
which can be potentially triggered very quickly.

These do not need to be lethal (e.g. a metal storm clip)
as a blinding laser or disabling spray (I routinely carry two
cans of mace when biking, and had to use one just yesterday)
would be a deterrent to casual attackers.

> makes more sense to degrade gracefully all the way to "no signal" than
> to risk imminent death from a violent disconnect.  (Not saying that
> was true of this case but in general)


From spike66 at att.net  Thu Jul 19 13:41:44 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2012 06:41:44 -0700
Subject: [ExI] cybernetic hate crime?
In-Reply-To: <20120719083042.GT12615@leitl.org>
References: <mailman.1.1342526403.20957.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <1342542761.93409.YahooMailNeo@web132102.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
 <CAHUTwkOsyWP2dQLiwJ6zygVi9W_RYqbYNkDWYFDygj_W4kq4gw@mail.gmail.com>
 <00a201cd64e5$5fa6aea0$1ef40be0$@att.net>
 <CAOJFdbK6-aq5-tDbcPoeSVR7PN1WjmTPsfsntp7XkQdbh0NH-Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120719083042.GT12615@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <002e01cd65b4$42217520$c6645f60$@att.net>


>... On Behalf Of Eugen Leitl

>...These do not need to be lethal (e.g. a metal storm clip) as a blinding
laser or disabling spray (I routinely carry two cans of mace when biking,
and had to use one just yesterday) would be a deterrent to casual
attackers...  Eugen

Oy vey, do explain please sir "casual attackers?"  Are you OK?  I do hope
the casual attacker was sufficiently dissuaded to go pursue other lines of
business.  

Here in the states we have guns, which results in our having no casual
attackers, which explains why we don't know the definition.  This doesn't
mean we don't have attackers.  Rather it is just that they are only formal
attackers; they mean business.  This means the honest citizen is advised to
carry lethal deterrence, with all those businesslike attackers about.

Here is an example of a couple of formal attackers from yesterday, who tried
to rob an internet caf? (?) one with a formal shotgun and the other with a
formal baseball bat.  A 71 year old patron pulled out Mister Thirty Eight
and deterred their formal asses:

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/07/18/florida-customer-shoots-suspects-during
-internet-cafe-robbery/

Sometimes the good guys win.

spike





From eugen at leitl.org  Thu Jul 19 14:42:45 2012
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2012 16:42:45 +0200
Subject: [ExI] cybernetic hate crime?
In-Reply-To: <002e01cd65b4$42217520$c6645f60$@att.net>
References: <mailman.1.1342526403.20957.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <1342542761.93409.YahooMailNeo@web132102.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
 <CAHUTwkOsyWP2dQLiwJ6zygVi9W_RYqbYNkDWYFDygj_W4kq4gw@mail.gmail.com>
 <00a201cd64e5$5fa6aea0$1ef40be0$@att.net>
 <CAOJFdbK6-aq5-tDbcPoeSVR7PN1WjmTPsfsntp7XkQdbh0NH-Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120719083042.GT12615@leitl.org> <002e01cd65b4$42217520$c6645f60$@att.net>
Message-ID: <20120719144245.GG12615@leitl.org>

On Thu, Jul 19, 2012 at 06:41:44AM -0700, spike wrote:

> Oy vey, do explain please sir "casual attackers?"  Are you OK?  I do hope
> the casual attacker was sufficiently dissuaded to go pursue other lines of
> business.  

The casual attacker was of the furry four-legged kind, and was
sufficiently deterred to stop pursuit and starting rolling in
the grass, to get rid of the capsaicin cloud (no direct hit). 
As I commute by bike during much of the year I have 2-3 such 
incidents annually.

Sadly, it's illegal to apply the spray to the dog owners, which 
are the actual culprits.


From kellycoinguy at gmail.com  Thu Jul 19 15:15:36 2012
From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2012 09:15:36 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Getting Old
Message-ID: <CAPy8RwbVNUniMXS1O6JNdH88QoTXy6YaUXRUOToX8CqE85b93A@mail.gmail.com>

Ok, this is an ad for Pfizer... so if that offends you move on... but
they have some interesting things to say imho...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdkMeojspb0
It's nice to think that there is this conversation going on at least.
They aren't quite talking radical life extension yet...

Also, there is a link to a jumble... which I hadn't encountered
before, that was kind of interesting but weird...

-Kelly


From anders at aleph.se  Fri Jul 20 08:38:11 2012
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2012 09:38:11 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Getting Old
In-Reply-To: <CAPy8RwbVNUniMXS1O6JNdH88QoTXy6YaUXRUOToX8CqE85b93A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPy8RwbVNUniMXS1O6JNdH88QoTXy6YaUXRUOToX8CqE85b93A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <500918F3.5090507@aleph.se>

On 19/07/2012 16:15, Kelly Anderson wrote:
> Ok, this is an ad for Pfizer... so if that offends you move on... but
> they have some interesting things to say imho...

They are using the same core argument as I usually do in defending life 
extnesion: that it gives you a better chance to pursue your life 
projects. Not bad.

Of course, we might quibble on how much current lifespan increseas are 
due to pharma and how much is other things.

-- 
Anders Sandberg,
Future of Humanity Institute
Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University



From anders at aleph.se  Fri Jul 20 08:46:56 2012
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2012 09:46:56 +0100
Subject: [ExI] cybernetic hate crime?
In-Reply-To: <50066BDA.5030208@aleph.se>
References: <mailman.1.1342526403.20957.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <1342542761.93409.YahooMailNeo@web132102.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
 <CAHUTwkOsyWP2dQLiwJ6zygVi9W_RYqbYNkDWYFDygj_W4kq4gw@mail.gmail.com>
 <50066BDA.5030208@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <50091B00.1010208@aleph.se>

I did a longer essay on the topic here:

http://blog.practicalethics.ox.ac.uk/2012/07/with-great-documentary-power-comes-great-responsibility/

-- 
Anders Sandberg,
Future of Humanity Institute
Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University



From dan_ust at yahoo.com  Fri Jul 20 10:28:29 2012
From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan Ust)
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2012 06:28:29 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Schmidt vs. Thiel over the future of technology
Message-ID: <68B7DF3D-5F02-445D-8884-B0402A9FA023@yahoo.com>

http://tech.fortune.cnn.com/2012/07/17/transcript-schmidt-thiel/

Comments?

Dan


From natasha at natasha.cc  Fri Jul 20 22:59:41 2012
From: natasha at natasha.cc (natasha at natasha.cc)
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2012 18:59:41 -0400
Subject: [ExI] atoms and cells - what is shared between them?
Message-ID: <20120720185941.nmzmrxw0pc8cos4o@webmail.natasha.cc>

Anders wrote:

On 17/07/2012 21:47, natasha at natasha.cc wrote:

> All molecules are made of atoms which are, for the most part,  
> indestructible and, thereby, immortal. *If atoms are the elemental  
> components from which all cells are derived, then why does  
> programmed cell death occur?*

"Because atoms and organisms are phenomena on different levels. The fact
that water molecules cannot show waves or disappear doesn't prevent a
large collection like a puddle to have waves or to dry out."

"Programmed cell death is an adaptation multicellular organisms use to
construct or control their tissues. It has been favored because
organisms with the right apoptosis programs can function well in the
environment  and hence reproduce well. Note that there are no
unicellular organisms with apoptosis: there survival is all about each
cell doing well."


> Also, is it true that if apoptosis is a chemical process, it has no  
> connection with the atomic constitutionof cells?

"Cell chemistry, especially the dynamics of proteins and signals like in
apoptosis, is about molecules interacting - with a few chemical
exceptions individual atoms do not occur other than as constituents of
molecules. So if atoms disappeared but molecules behaved the same cells
would work the same."

Thank you ANDERS!  And thanks to Max who discussed this with me via telephone.

So, this is how I am stating it and I think it makes sense of my questions:

Atoms and cells are phenomena on different levels; yet, it is the  
organization of the molecules, which contain atoms, that forms a  
system such as a cellular system. The dynamics of apoptosis concerns  
molecules interacting, where individual atoms do not take place other  
than as constituents of the molecules. When the cells die it is  
because the molecules that form the them are no longer in the same  
position or organization and, therefore, not capable of performing the  
necessary cell functions. Thus, cell death occurs because the  
molecules, containing atoms, have been rearranged by metabolic  
processes or by the effects of random damage. Of consequence is that  
the atoms may still exist, but because the molecular position or  
organization has changed, they are prevented from performing their  
functions and unable to assist the efficacy of a cell?s role in  
relation to the entire system of the organism.

Natasha




From bbenzai at yahoo.com  Sat Jul 21 13:18:37 2012
From: bbenzai at yahoo.com (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2012 06:18:37 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] atoms and cells - what is shared between them?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1342872001.4454.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <1342876717.19053.YahooMailClassic@web114409.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

> From: natasha at natasha.cc

> Anders wrote:
> 
> On 17/07/2012 21:47, natasha at natasha.cc wrote:
> 
> > All molecules are made of atoms which are, for the most
> part,? 
> > indestructible and, thereby, immortal. *If atoms are
> the elemental? 
> > components from which all cells are derived, then why
> does? 
> > programmed cell death occur?*
> 
> "Because atoms and organisms are phenomena on different
> levels. The fact
> that water molecules cannot show waves or disappear doesn't
> prevent a
> large collection like a puddle to have waves or to dry
> out."
> 
> "Programmed cell death is an adaptation multicellular
> organisms use to
> construct or control their tissues. It has been favored
> because
> organisms with the right apoptosis programs can function
> well in the
> environment? and hence reproduce well. Note that there
> are no
> unicellular organisms with apoptosis: there survival is all
> about each
> cell doing well."
> 
> 
> > Also, is it true that if apoptosis is a chemical
> process, it has no? 
> > connection with the atomic constitutionof cells?
> 
> "Cell chemistry, especially the dynamics of proteins and
> signals like in
> apoptosis, is about molecules interacting - with a few
> chemical
> exceptions individual atoms do not occur other than as
> constituents of
> molecules. So if atoms disappeared but molecules behaved the
> same cells
> would work the same."



In general, I think it's a very important point that anyone thinking about any of these issues (including things like AI, consciousness, virtual reality, uploading, as well as biology) understands the concept of levels of abstraction.  It's such a vital concept that without it, imo, nothing constructive can really be said, and a lack of appreciation of this concept leads to various silliness like people complaining that brains are not computers, programs can never be conscious, a simulation is not the same as the 'real thing', etc.  As I've said elsewhere, Quarks are vital to things like tables, but nobody in their right mind who wants to make a table would even think about considering the quarks it's composed of.  Quarks are on a level so far removed from carpentry that although they underlie it, they are irrelevant in any practical sense (being about 8 levels of abstraction away from wood).

This concept applies to just about everything I can think of.  There are levels of abstraction, and it's important to pick the right level to talk about before opening your mouth.  Ignoring this leads to people saying things like "brains use quantum mechanics to produce minds".  True, but as irrelevant as saying that tables are made of quarks.

Ben Zaiboc



From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Sat Jul 21 14:42:02 2012
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2012 07:42:02 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Paleolithic Diet vs IF vs CR was Re:  Getting Old
In-Reply-To: <500918F3.5090507@aleph.se>
References: <CAPy8RwbVNUniMXS1O6JNdH88QoTXy6YaUXRUOToX8CqE85b93A@mail.gmail.com>
 <500918F3.5090507@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <1342881722.55458.YahooMailNeo@web164505.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>


?
----- Original Message -----
> From: Anders Sandberg <anders at aleph.se>
> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Cc: 
> Sent: Friday, July 20, 2012 1:38 AM
> Subject: Re: [ExI] Getting Old
> 
> On 19/07/2012 16:15, Kelly Anderson wrote:
>> Ok, this is an ad for Pfizer... so if that offends you move on... but
>> they have some interesting things to say imho...
> 
> They are using the same core argument as I usually do in defending life 
> extnesion: that it gives you a better chance to pursue your life projects. Not 
> bad.
> 
> Of course, we might quibble on how much current lifespan increseas are due to 
> pharma and how much is other things.

True that. If I recall correctly the?widespread adoption of underground sewers carefully segregated from drinking water sources?caused the biggest jump in life expectancy in history. A close second was the?discovery of penicillin. I say?discovery?because technically?a fungus?was the party that invented?penicillin but unfortunately never filed a patent application.
?
Speaking of getting old?I have been experimenting with various dietary modifications based on the assumption that the best diet would be the one that we evolved with?for the longest time. I have been having?some good success at weight loss using a varient of calorie restriction called intermittent fasting. In the beginning I started simply eating every other day.

Essentially I would fast on nothing but water/black coffee/ unsweetened tea for an entire wake/sleep cyle of ~24 hours and then eat?a hearty balanced diet for another?wake-sleep cycle. I lost?about 10 lbs in the first two weeks and then tapered off to about 1-3 lbs a week. In some ways it is an easier diet to stick to than traditional CR where?I was?always hungry.?With this diet?I was only?only hungry for half?of every 48 hours, so it reduced the temptation to cheat knowing that if I just went to bed hungry, I could eat as much as I wanted when I woke up.

I am also experimenting with variations in the diet such as eating only low-sugar, low starch, high fiber fruits and vegetables like cucumbers, celery, and brocolli etc.?without bananas, potatoes, rice,?or other high calorie "vegetarian fare" for a 24 hour period and then eating what I wanted for a 24 hour period. I seem to still be losing about 1-2 lbs a week.

This diet feels very natural to me. Much more so than the?three meals a day model that people would have you believe is a defining hallmark of civilization. It feels like I am?living on?foraged vegetables for a day until I can successfully catch some prey. Almost like a diet that is paleolithic in timing,?and not just?in content. I am thinking that the next?permutation should be eating without rythym. i.e. only eating meat / high calorie carbs on days where I achieve a specified coin flip or?die roll to simulate hunting and gathering.

The?underlying mechanism of this diet is that you?don't have to eat a?small fixed number of calories every day for CR to work. You can instead achieve the same effect by eating?no or very few calories one day and lots of calories the next. So long as the *moving average*?over?several days meets?your calorie restriction target, you still get the benefits.????


Stuart LaForge
?
"Prisons are built with stones of Law. Brothels with the bricks of religion." - William Blake??



From clementlawyer at gmail.com  Sat Jul 21 22:22:50 2012
From: clementlawyer at gmail.com (James Clement)
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2012 18:22:50 -0400
Subject: [ExI] X-prizes could spur robotics development
Message-ID: <CA+LBAbR4ryCtvDGsgTSkQhVOQ_mQyFdw0+hGbz29eG61CP5hkA@mail.gmail.com>

Google Alerts brought this to my attention today:
http://nextbigfuture.com/2012/07/x-prizes-could-spur-robotics-development.html


X-prizes could spur robotics development
 Google has offered $20 million to the first privately funded group to send
a robot to the moon. This prize, which is the largest X-prize ever offered,
will expire at the end of 2015. There are currently 26 teams actively
trying to win the prize. One of those teams, Astrobotic, is lead by "Red"
Whittaker. Dr. Whittaker is a Carnegie Mellon roboticist who is determined
to win the prize. In an interview with Sander Olson for Next Big Future,
Astrobotic CEO Whittaker discusses how the X-prize will spur robotics
development and competition, why AI isn't essential to the development of
robotics, and why the capabilities of robots could equal those of
biological systems within a decade.
Red Whittaker
Question: How long before driverless cars become commercially available?
The short answer is five years. The development of driverless cars is
proceed incrementally, with cars already offering navigational aids and
hands free parking. Carnegie Mellon is still developing driverless cars.
This technology is also appearing in mining machines, construction
machines, defense, agriculture, trucks, etc. These are all big money
markets, and the R&D funding will only increase as a thriving industry
develops.
Question: Roboticists are excited about the Kinect device. How will this
change the field of robotics?
The Kinect device is an inexpensive device that can provide range data and
sensing in light and dark environments. It is ideal for many different
robotics applications. The sensing capabilities of the kinect have been
around for a while, but they were prohibitively expensive for most robotic
applications. But the kinect costs maybe $100 dollars, and Microsoft will
soon introduce an improved version with greater sensitivity. So it has the
potential to be a game-changer for robotics.
Question: How has funding for robotics research changed during the past
decade?
Funding for robotics is now greater than it ever has been before. Twenty
years ago, it would have been irresponsible for a major company to commit
to robotics in mining, driving, defense, or virtually any field except
manufacturing. The enabling technologies simply weren't ready. Now that the
enabling technologies have been developed, companies are proliferating, new
startups are frequently emerging, and big companies are adopting. So this
is way beyond simply funding science projects.
Question: Carnegie Mellon is one of the contestants for the lunar x-prize.
How confident are you that you will be able to land a rover on the moon by
2015?
We are very confident of landing a rover on the moon. There are currently
26 teams competing for the prize. The prize is $20 million for a
non-federal program that lands a rover on the moon. Our ambition is to
reach the pole to drill for lunar ice. We have an active program, and we
are making steady progress.
Question: Are you concerned that the Chinese Change 3 lunar rover, set to
land in 2013, might accomplish the task first?
The prize is for a non-federal moon landing. If a Government succeeds
before a team, the prize is reduced to $15 million. I am amazed by the
effectiveness of the x-prize to jump-start research. These prizes award one
shot accomplishments, but the larger impact is to springboard further
development.
Question: What role will the lunar X-prize have on robotics?
The cash prize is an incentive. A team will spend more than the prize to
succeed, but the follow-on payoff is a multiple of the expenditure. This is
why x-prizes are so effective, It provides an incentive to employ many
different approaches. The robotic x-prizes are specifically designed to
spur R&D on robotics applications, and they succeed at that.
Question: How important is Government funding to your project?
Government money for any of our projects is a component of a balanced
portfolio. The Government didn't put any money into Lindbergh crossing the
Atlantic, or to Deep Blue or Watson. So grants are good for incremental
research, but I am more excited by transformational R&D. For these
high-risk, high-reward tasks, corporations and x-prizes are often more
effective than grants.
Question: How much AI research is Carnegie Mellon doing?
Carnegie Mellon essentially created the field of Artificial Intelligence.
Carnegie Mellon currently has one of the best AI programs on the planet,
and there is extensive collaboration between AI and robotics.
Question: How important are AI advances to robotic development?
Although AI advances do benefit the robotics industry, the robotics
industry can grow exponentially even without embracing AI breakthroughs.
For instance, our mining robot had to solve various issues involved with
navigating in dark, uneven tunnels. Although this robot was limited in its
capabilities, it was good enough to get the job done, and it succeeded in
all of its objectives. That is the case with many robotic tasks - robots
simply don't require the general, flexible, and subtle intelligence that
humans have for most jobs they will be given.
Question: But what about robots that need to work outside of structured
environments?
Unstructured environments do require more sophisticated AI, but even in
those environments narrow AI programs generally get the job done. For
instance, we developed a robot to drive around Antarctica, looking for
meteorites. The robot was effectively able to navigate, and to locate
meteorites. The same is true of the mars rovers - they can't play chess or
Jeopardy, but they effectively perform the tasks that they are programmed
to do. But for narrow AI tasks, robots often outperform humans.
Question: What robotic advances would you like to see by 2022?
By 2022, we should have made enough progress in areas such as sensing,
planning, modeling, autonomy, and power, that the capabilities of robots
will be approaching those of biological systems. We should see exponential
growth both in the number of robots in operation and in the capabilities of
robots. I am convinced that robotics will play as large a role in society
during the next three decades as computers and the internet have played in
the last three.

Best regards,

James
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From anders at aleph.se  Sun Jul 22 11:54:37 2012
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2012 12:54:37 +0100
Subject: [ExI] atoms and cells - what is shared between them?
In-Reply-To: <20120720185941.nmzmrxw0pc8cos4o@webmail.natasha.cc>
References: <20120720185941.nmzmrxw0pc8cos4o@webmail.natasha.cc>
Message-ID: <500BE9FD.2060405@aleph.se>

Yup.

A living and a dead body after all contain the same number of atoms, 
just arranged in a different way.

Perhaps the main difference is that living bodies have a lot of 
molecules in metastable high energy states ready for use, and that dead 
bodies do not. From a revival perspective the real issue is of course 
the ordering of the molecules rather than their energy states, but 
typically low energy states also have high entropy: there are more ways 
of being dead than alive, but they are all macroscopically fairly boring.

On 20/07/2012 23:59, natasha at natasha.cc wrote:
> Atoms and cells are phenomena on different levels; yet, it is the 
> organization of the molecules, which contain atoms, that forms a 
> system such as a cellular system. The dynamics of apoptosis concerns 
> molecules interacting, where individual atoms do not take place other 
> than as constituents of the molecules. When the cells die it is 
> because the molecules that form the them are no longer in the same 
> position or organization and, therefore, not capable of performing the 
> necessary cell functions. Thus, cell death occurs because the 
> molecules, containing atoms, have been rearranged by metabolic 
> processes or by the effects of random damage. Of consequence is that 
> the atoms may still exist, but because the molecular position or 
> organization has changed, they are prevented from performing their 
> functions and unable to assist the efficacy of a cell?s role in 
> relation to the entire system of the organism.


-- 
Anders Sandberg,
Future of Humanity Institute
Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University



From natasha at natasha.cc  Sun Jul 22 16:57:27 2012
From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More)
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2012 11:57:27 -0500
Subject: [ExI] atoms and cells - what is shared between them?
In-Reply-To: <500BE9FD.2060405@aleph.se>
References: <20120720185941.nmzmrxw0pc8cos4o@webmail.natasha.cc>
 <500BE9FD.2060405@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <002401cd682b$13757680$3a606380$@cc>

Thank you Anders!

-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Anders Sandberg
Sent: Sunday, July 22, 2012 6:55 AM
To: ExI chat list
Subject: Re: [ExI] atoms and cells - what is shared between them?

Yup.

A living and a dead body after all contain the same number of atoms, just
arranged in a different way.

Perhaps the main difference is that living bodies have a lot of molecules in
metastable high energy states ready for use, and that dead bodies do not.
>From a revival perspective the real issue is of course the ordering of the
molecules rather than their energy states, but typically low energy states
also have high entropy: there are more ways of being dead than alive, but
they are all macroscopically fairly boring.

On 20/07/2012 23:59, natasha at natasha.cc wrote:
> Atoms and cells are phenomena on different levels; yet, it is the 
> organization of the molecules, which contain atoms, that forms a 
> system such as a cellular system. The dynamics of apoptosis concerns 
> molecules interacting, where individual atoms do not take place other 
> than as constituents of the molecules. When the cells die it is 
> because the molecules that form the them are no longer in the same 
> position or organization and, therefore, not capable of performing the 
> necessary cell functions. Thus, cell death occurs because the 
> molecules, containing atoms, have been rearranged by metabolic 
> processes or by the effects of random damage. Of consequence is that 
> the atoms may still exist, but because the molecular position or 
> organization has changed, they are prevented from performing their 
> functions and unable to assist the efficacy of a cell's role in 
> relation to the entire system of the organism.


--
Anders Sandberg,
Future of Humanity Institute
Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University

_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat



From jrd1415 at gmail.com  Tue Jul 24 22:48:41 2012
From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis)
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2012 15:48:41 -0700
Subject: [ExI] StemCells Inc.and Alzheimer's.
Message-ID: <CAHUTwkPJeQzAGCnzYxsWxvvT=v1CsjvQc1RDqt8OYuFKhSoMmQ@mail.gmail.com>

Human stem cells found to restore memory.

StemCells Inc. hopes a clinical trial of its proprietary stem cells in
rodents will lead to a clinical trial with Alzheimer's patients.

http://www.technologyreview.com/news/428532/human-stem-cells-found-to-restore-memory/?nlid=nldly&nld=2012-07-24

                                ****************************************
One little comment:  For some time I've wondered if, as these results
seem to suggest, memory is not always lost, but sometimes just made
inaccessible.

Best, Jeff Davis

           "Everything's hard till  you know how to do it."
                                            Ray Charles


From spike66 at att.net  Tue Jul 24 23:45:21 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2012 16:45:21 -0700
Subject: [ExI] StemCells Inc.and Alzheimer's.
In-Reply-To: <CAHUTwkPJeQzAGCnzYxsWxvvT=v1CsjvQc1RDqt8OYuFKhSoMmQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHUTwkPJeQzAGCnzYxsWxvvT=v1CsjvQc1RDqt8OYuFKhSoMmQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <002a01cd69f6$64477b90$2cd672b0$@att.net>

>... Behalf Of Jeff Davis

Subject: [ExI] StemCells Inc.and Alzheimer's.

Human stem cells found to restore memory.

>...StemCells Inc. hopes a clinical trial of its proprietary stem cells in
rodents will lead to a clinical trial with Alzheimer's patients.

>...http://www.technologyreview.com/news/428532/human-stem-cells-found-to-re
store-memory/?nlid=nldly&nld=2012-07-24

                                ****************************************
>...One little comment:  For some time I've wondered if, as these results
seem to suggest, memory is not always lost, but sometimes just made
inaccessible.  Best, Jeff Davis


Jeff I have evidence to offer that this is exactly the case.  Most of us
have known Alzheimer's patients who are sometimes lost, other times not very
different from normal.  I don't know why it works that way.  Most of us have
lost a name of someone or something familiar, and later brought it right
back without any trouble.

Good luck to the stem cell guys, we sure need a treatment.

spike





From dan_ust at yahoo.com  Wed Jul 25 03:21:53 2012
From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan)
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2012 20:21:53 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] StemCells Inc.and Alzheimer's.
In-Reply-To: <CAHUTwkPJeQzAGCnzYxsWxvvT=v1CsjvQc1RDqt8OYuFKhSoMmQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHUTwkPJeQzAGCnzYxsWxvvT=v1CsjvQc1RDqt8OYuFKhSoMmQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1343186513.36940.YahooMailNeo@web126206.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

On Tuesday, July 24, 2012 6:48 PM Jeff Davis <jrd1415 at gmail.com> wrote:
> One little comment:? For some time I've wondered if, as these results
> seem to suggest, memory is not always lost, but sometimes just made
> inaccessible.

Well, not only does this research seem to show that, but it's part of the conventional views of memory*: that memory might either be lost through loss of whatever is stored or loss of a means to access it (or access it correctly).

Regards,

Dan

* See, e.g., _Memory: A Very Short Introduction_ by Jonathan K. Foster.
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From spike66 at att.net  Wed Jul 25 04:12:18 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2012 21:12:18 -0700
Subject: [ExI] StemCells Inc.and Alzheimer's.
In-Reply-To: <1343186513.36940.YahooMailNeo@web126206.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <CAHUTwkPJeQzAGCnzYxsWxvvT=v1CsjvQc1RDqt8OYuFKhSoMmQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <1343186513.36940.YahooMailNeo@web126206.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <001e01cd6a1b$af011f40$0d035dc0$@att.net>

Ja, I think we will learn that memory is a complicated collection of
physical effects.

 

From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Dan
Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2012 8:22 PM
To: ExI chat list
Subject: Re: [ExI] StemCells Inc.and Alzheimer's.

 

On Tuesday, July 24, 2012 6:48 PM Jeff Davis <jrd1415 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>. One little comment:  For some time I've wondered if, as these results
> seem to suggest, memory is not always lost, but sometimes just made
> inaccessible.

>.Well, not only does this research seem to show that, but it's part of the
conventional views of memory*: that memory might either be lost through loss
of whatever is stored or loss of a means to access it (or access it
correctly).  Regards,  Dan

 

Ja, I think we will learn that memory is a complicated collection of
physical effects.  For instance, every time we remember an event, it
rewrites the memory, so that memory drifts.  But numbers do not.  Equations
usually do not.  But memories of events drift in accordance with our general
outlook.  This effect is driving me nuts in my own efforts to write my
memoirs: they come out a lot more interesting and funny, generally cheerful,
happy and fun, when the events at the time were more towards neutral or even
negative.  

 

I treasure old friends with whom I shared experiences.  I like to talk to
them and see how well our recollections agree.  I have at least one friend
whose old memories have drifted towards the negative.

 

OK friends, which is it with you?  Do your old memories drift?  If so, which
way?  Why do you suppose?  Are there other axes besides positive/negative?
Such as boring/interesting?  Weird/normal?  

 

spike





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From dan_ust at yahoo.com  Wed Jul 25 13:10:17 2012
From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan Ust)
Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2012 09:10:17 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Support for the Thermal Origin of the Pioneer Anomaly
Message-ID: <8F2E143C-49FB-4327-979F-91C78E1EBE56@yahoo.com>

http://prl.aps.org/abstract/PRL/v108/i24/e241101

Any surprises there?

Regards,

Dan


From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Wed Jul 25 15:19:42 2012
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2012 08:19:42 -0700
Subject: [ExI] A new author looking for Kickstarter support
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy0oSrQ1gJQgTFCXNxbkQp0y-RC_3gr768eKxh-eq=yRZg@mail.gmail.com>

My friend Donna Cook has written an epic fantasy novel, GIFT OF THE
PHOENIX, which will hopefully be self-published soon.  She has set up a
Kickstarter profile and has till August 5th to raise the needed funds.  I
wish I could say this were a tale of hard science fiction (considering this
list), but alas, she loves fantasy.  Please watch her video and consider
donating.  : )


Ballroom dancing is the favorite pastime of Donna and her artist husband,
when they are not busy with their small horde of children at home.


Donna worked extensively for over a year with an editing/criticism group of
over one-hundred people, so that she could polish and hone the manuscript
before she spent money on it.


http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1737802436/gift-of-the-phoenix?ref=live


 John
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From mrjones2020 at gmail.com  Wed Jul 25 20:30:07 2012
From: mrjones2020 at gmail.com (J.R. Jones)
Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2012 16:30:07 -0400
Subject: [ExI] StemCells Inc.and Alzheimer's.
In-Reply-To: <002a01cd69f6$64477b90$2cd672b0$@att.net>
References: <CAHUTwkPJeQzAGCnzYxsWxvvT=v1CsjvQc1RDqt8OYuFKhSoMmQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <002a01cd69f6$64477b90$2cd672b0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CADDVf2JtB2eEsuZ=YzD8ov8SjXyFvcNt2zO16qzrpDKzfGNJiA@mail.gmail.com>

> Jeff I have evidence to offer that this is exactly the case.  Most of us
> have known Alzheimer's patients who are sometimes lost, other times not
very
> different from normal.  I don't know why it works that way.  Most of us
have
> lost a name of someone or something familiar, and later brought it right
> back without any trouble.
>
> Good luck to the stem cell guys, we sure need a treatment.

So it's like mental data carving..
That's great news!
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From msd001 at gmail.com  Thu Jul 26 01:37:08 2012
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2012 21:37:08 -0400
Subject: [ExI] StemCells Inc.and Alzheimer's.
In-Reply-To: <001e01cd6a1b$af011f40$0d035dc0$@att.net>
References: <CAHUTwkPJeQzAGCnzYxsWxvvT=v1CsjvQc1RDqt8OYuFKhSoMmQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <1343186513.36940.YahooMailNeo@web126206.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <001e01cd6a1b$af011f40$0d035dc0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAOJFdbLfN93ZoreBDucHCKS3cOYiKazS7fM0VyxzMRb8whtugw@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 12:12 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> I treasure old friends with whom I shared experiences.  I like to talk to
> them and see how well our recollections agree.  I have at least one friend
> whose old memories have drifted towards the negative.
>
> OK friends, which is it with you?  Do your old memories drift?  If so, which
> way?  Why do you suppose?  Are there other axes besides positive/negative?
> Such as boring/interesting?  Weird/normal?

Are the facts recorded in a neutral encoding and it is the reassembly
that wraps them in your current mindset?

How much of the phenomenal Now is a merely the story we tell ourselves
about the world "out there"?

Why should our memories be any more or less malleable than so-called real time?

Of course this gets into the ol' identity issue(s) but without the
difference of opinion of those around me claiming that I am not who I
say I am, who am I to believe:  my own consistency of
episodic/experiential memory or the photo id card I'm expected to
carry?

for the audio/video inclined: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1wg1DNHbNU
or the text-only club: http://www.purelyrics.com/index.php?lyrics=pxfpopzy


From eugen at leitl.org  Thu Jul 26 09:17:06 2012
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2012 11:17:06 +0200
Subject: [ExI] types of cars and ethics
Message-ID: <20120726091706.GV12615@leitl.org>


(take this as an anecdote, not a scientific study)

http://gizmodo.com/5927083/roadkill-experiment-shows-that-six-percent-of-drivers-are-sadistic-animal-killers

Roadkill Experiment Shows That Six Percent of Drivers Are Sadistic Animal
Killers

Jesus Diaz	

Our friend Mark Rober from NASA makes some awesome videos, but this science
experiment must be his best yet. He basically showed that six percent of the
drivers out there are sadistic animal killers.

This is what he did:

? He alternatively placed a rubber animal?and a leaf as a control object?on
the shoulder of a road: a turtle, a snake, or a spider.

? He watched one thousand cars pass by and annotated the drivers' reaction.

The results are quite surprising.

He found out that 94 percent of drivers did what anyone in their sane mind
would do: keep driving on their lane. Remember that the animals were on the
road's shoulder, way outside their driving path. They didn't pose any danger
whatsoever to the drivers' safety.

On the other hand, six percent went out of the driving lane to run over the
animals. Think about that: sixty out of one thousand drivers actually went
out of their way to kill a living thing that didn't represent any danger to
their lives?and risking their own lives in the process, no less. Six percent
were just cruel because they could be. For their own sadistic pleasure, I can
only imagine.

Mark says that "one thing that might explain the higher numbers here?in case
people question my methods?is that I used a tarantula." Apparently, people
seemed pretty eager about hitting a spider. "If you take that out it goes to
2.8% which is closer to the other turtle vs. snake studies I ended up
finding."

It is still quite a surprisingly high number. At least compared to a 2008
study using the Psychopathy Checklist, which discovered that 1.2 percent of
the US population were potential psychopaths. 1.2 vs 2.8 is a huge
difference.

Now, I'm not going to pull a PETA?I actually hate PETA?and say that the six
(or 2.8) percent are all potential psychopaths, but clearly these people have
some kind of mental problem. At the very least, their empathy circuits must
be pretty broken. Personally, I wouldn't like to be friends with any of them.

And I really don't care which kind of animal they ran over because all of
them were located outside of the lane and posed absolutely no danger to the
drivers. Needless to say, if a turtle or a snake is on the middle of your
lane, never risk your life to save it. Your safety must come first, but this
was not the case. This was all the contrary. And it's quite disgusting.

Jesus Diaz 7 days ago

Oh, and two more things:

? 89 percent of the 6 percent were SUV drivers.

? Mark repeated the study "on a smaller scale on a secluded road leading up
to a gun club by my house. Turns out, if you're a turtle, snake or tarantula,
your chances are almost (but not quite) double of getting run over there."

Like he says, correlation does not imply causation, but I'm sure you people
will have a lot to say about this.

But all this is not important. The important thing is: would you get out of
your lane to kill an animal for the sake of it?


From bbenzai at yahoo.com  Thu Jul 26 13:10:42 2012
From: bbenzai at yahoo.com (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2012 06:10:42 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] types of cars and ethics
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1343304001.18640.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <1343308242.36543.YahooMailClassic@web114412.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

Eugen Leitl <eugen at leitl.org> asked:

> The important thing is: would you get out of
> your lane to kill an animal for the sake of it?


I'd get out of bed to kill a (female*) mosquito.

Does that make me a psychopath?

I'm sure at least some of those people think snakes and tarantulas are Bad Things, and need to be killed before they hurt people.


* Not sexist, just aware that male mozzies don't bite, and if you leave them alone after sneaking up on them, there's less selection pressure on the species to develop good newspaper-avoiding skills.

Ben Zaiboc



From eugen at leitl.org  Thu Jul 26 13:41:16 2012
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2012 15:41:16 +0200
Subject: [ExI] types of cars and ethics
In-Reply-To: <1343308242.36543.YahooMailClassic@web114412.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.1.1343304001.18640.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <1343308242.36543.YahooMailClassic@web114412.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20120726134116.GJ12615@leitl.org>

On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 06:10:42AM -0700, Ben Zaiboc wrote:
> Eugen Leitl <eugen at leitl.org> asked:
> 
> > The important thing is: would you get out of
> > your lane to kill an animal for the sake of it?
> 
> 
> I'd get out of bed to kill a (female*) mosquito.

Over 1% went out of their way to drive over turtles. 

I like turtles.

Plus, tendency to drive over living things *did* 
correlate with SUV use. In USia, at least. 
 
> Does that make me a psychopath?
> 
> I'm sure at least some of those people think snakes and tarantulas are Bad Things, and need to be killed before they hurt people.
> 
> 
> * Not sexist, just aware that male mozzies don't bite, and if you leave them alone after sneaking up on them, there's less selection pressure on the species to develop good newspaper-avoiding skills.


From pharos at gmail.com  Thu Jul 26 13:49:17 2012
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2012 14:49:17 +0100
Subject: [ExI] types of cars and ethics
In-Reply-To: <20120726134116.GJ12615@leitl.org>
References: <mailman.1.1343304001.18640.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <1343308242.36543.YahooMailClassic@web114412.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
 <20120726134116.GJ12615@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <CAL_armgV3C8vcLtby0SxqMnL_6611XceUQe9g1K5dOv=Bw2chg@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 2:41 PM, Eugen Leitl wrote:
> Over 1% went out of their way to drive over turtles.
> I like turtles.
>
> Plus, tendency to drive over living things *did*
> correlate with SUV use. In USia, at least.
>

Economizing.    It saves on cartridges.

BillK


From mbb386 at main.nc.us  Thu Jul 26 14:31:19 2012
From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2012 10:31:19 -0400
Subject: [ExI] types of cars and ethics
In-Reply-To: <20120726134116.GJ12615@leitl.org>
References: <mailman.1.1343304001.18640.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <1343308242.36543.YahooMailClassic@web114412.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
 <20120726134116.GJ12615@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <f92ef44ab74b26cbc6162dcd49404eb7.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>


Eugen wrote:

> Over 1% went out of their way to drive over turtles.
>
> I like turtles.
>
> Plus, tendency to drive over living things *did*
> correlate with SUV use. In USia, at least.
>

Ugh. I like turtles too. I've stopped and moved them from
the road - in the direction they were headed. The most
challenging was a snapper!

I also like snakes. And have moved them as well. (Most
recently a 5 foot black rat snake.)

I live (and drive) on narrow curving hilly country roads
with no shoulders so anything small like that that's
visible is likely *on* the road, and there's not much
avoiding to be done.

In my experience, many men will aim for cats, most people
will avoid dogs. Not sure if it's the size thing, but I
suspect it is all these guys love dogs and dislike cats.

Squirrels will suicide, it's very strange. They see the
car coming, they sit and watch, and as the car reaches
them they dash into the road - under the wheels. Thunk.

Rabbits are hard to avoid, because they run so many
directions - never sticking to a straight course off the
road, but tacking back and forth in front of the vehicle.

Possums are slow and nobody seems to care. Too sad, as
they're rather cool critters.

I've never met a woman who aimed for animals, *except*
they will aim for snakes. Bummer. Do they expect the snake
to fly up off the ground and into the SUV? :*

Regards,
MB



From clementlawyer at gmail.com  Thu Jul 26 14:14:49 2012
From: clementlawyer at gmail.com (James Clement)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2012 10:14:49 -0400
Subject: [ExI] U.S. District Court rules that stem cells are drugs
Message-ID: <CA+LBAbR+X8uJioSSLfp9THkFX9hStt6QC903=bEyKfcqVLZvnA@mail.gmail.com>

This is very disappointing news, since it means that the safest and
potentially most effective regenerative medical treatment we have
(autologous stem cells) is now going to be virtually impossible to pursue
in the U.S. (at least as long as this court decision hasn't been
overturned). I guess this shouldn't be a surprise, however, since there's
so much money to be made by Big Pharma for one-size-fits-all, allogeneic
stem cell treatments.. This obviously makes the even more desirable
treatment, doing gene therapy on autologous stem cells before returning
them to one's body, even more unlikely in the near future.

What's the status of autologous stem cell treatments in other parts of the
world?

Best regards,

James

U.S. District Court rules that stem cells are drugs

Krista Conger on July 25th, 2012 1 Comment

Peter Aldhous from New Scientist reports today that the U.S. District Court
in Washington, DC, has ruled that a person?s own cultured stem cells are
drugs subject to regulation by the Food and Drug Administration.

This is a big deal, as it?s the cornerstone of an ongoing argument between
the agency and Colorado-based Regenerative Sciences (The FDA Law Blog
summarized the legal tussles nicely last October). It?s also germane to the
issues surrounding Texas-based Celltex, which I?ve blogged about before.

According to Aldhous:

It?s official: stem cells are drugs. At least, that?s the opinion of the
[court]? which has ruled that the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) has
the authority to regulate clinics offering controversial stem cell
therapies.

Treatments in which stem cells are harvested from bone marrow and injected
straight back into the same patient are deemed part of routine medical
practice ? not regulated by the US government. But if the cells are
subjected to more than ?minimal manipulation?, the FDA maintains that the
therapy becomes a ?drug?, which must be specifically approved for use.

Aldhous also quotes Regenerative Sciences? medical director Christopher
Centeno, MD, vowing to appeal the ruling, as well as Stanford?s own
Christopher Scott:

?I think it?s a good ruling, and I?m glad to see that that the FDA has
exercised its muscle on the case,? says Christopher Scott, who heads the
Program on Stem Cells in Society at Stanford University in California.

Scott hopes that the FDA will now step up its efforts to regulate other
clinics offering unproven stem cell therapies. These include Celltex of
Sugar Land, Texas, which rose to prominence after Texas governor Rick Perry
was injected with stem cells supplied by the company to aid his recovery
from back surgery.

This is obviously not the last of the story? we?ll keep you posted.
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From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Thu Jul 26 14:49:27 2012
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2012 07:49:27 -0700
Subject: [ExI] StemCells Inc.and Alzheimer's.
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB6Hd_Kz7LRyiF6KsG6XCL+a+hFomxtAnomrZppitwKaXA@mail.gmail.com>

The FDA has ruled that it's illegal to remove stem cells, expand them
(by growth) and reinject them into the person they were extracted from
in the US.

So my wife is having the procedure done for her knees in the Cayman Islands.

They had a power blackout here most of yesterday.

Keith


From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Thu Jul 26 16:34:56 2012
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2012 12:34:56 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Aerographite
Message-ID: <CAAc1gFjOjUGBmUOvUyihAE2eAZSE3Ve7X9v3PUX0Dq9_8_vabA@mail.gmail.com>

A question for the mathematically proficient people: If you made a
sphere of aerographite, covered with a gas non-permeable membrane, for
example a few layers of graphene, and partially evacuated the inside,
would it float in the air without being crushed by its pressure?

See here, aerographite weighs about 0.3 g per liter, and is pretty stiff:

http://nextbigfuture.com/2012/07/aerographite-is-lightest-material.html#more

air is about 1.3 g/l, so you would need to remove about one gram of
air from a 1-liter sphere of aerographite to achieve neutral buoyancy
- but what would be the pressure on the surface of the sphere? Assume
you are not using a lighter-than air gas inside.

Atomically precise macroscopic carbon structures could be truly amazing.

Rafal


From spike66 at att.net  Thu Jul 26 17:31:21 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2012 10:31:21 -0700
Subject: [ExI] types of cars and ethics
In-Reply-To: <20120726091706.GV12615@leitl.org>
References: <20120726091706.GV12615@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <00cd01cd6b54$7b315d30$71941790$@att.net>


>... On Behalf Of Eugen Leitl
Subject: [ExI] types of cars and ethics


(take this as an anecdote, not a scientific study)

http://gizmodo.com/5927083/roadkill-experiment-shows-that-six-percent-of-drivers-are-sadistic-animal-killers

Roadkill Experiment Shows That Six Percent of Drivers Are Sadistic Animal Killers
...

? He alternatively placed a rubber animal?and a leaf as a control object?on the shoulder of a road: a turtle, a snake, or a spider.

? He watched one thousand cars pass by and annotated the drivers' reaction.

...

There are three different experiments here, actually at least three.  We humans have a natural revulsion for spiders and insects.  I had it at one time, but as a child I wondered why, since only ants, bees and wasps sting, and then only when provoked.  So I began really examining insects, under the microscope if possible, and pretty soon I had no more revulsion for insects than normal people have for squirrels and birds.  I urge people to really look closely at bugs.  They are far more interesting and diverse than mammals, and they are the easiest wildlife to observe because of being so common.

Spiders bite, but only when practically invited.  Tarantulas are not aggressive and are not poisonous, but will inflict a painful mechanical bite if you attack them first.  So why don't we have this aversion to horseshoe crabs?  We don't care if they swim all around us at the beach, but if you pick up one and look at it, they are huge spiders with a big shell over them.  If they didn't have that shell, swimmers would out freak.  Instinct?  If you want something fun and freaky, go witness a tarantula migration.

Running over turtles: I don't understand that one.  Pass.  Shame on that driver.

Snakes: most people cannot identify from a moving car the harmfulness or otherwise of a snake.  They may flatten the slithery bastard just because they think they are protecting the children and the clueless.  But even if they don't, snakes devour mice and other furry beasts, so the car driver might be crushing the reptile in order to save the mammals.

Back to the turtles for a minute.  Any egregious bastard who would intentionally flatten a turtle, oy.  I propose we set up a camera down the road from the rubber turtle and snap photos of the drivers who intentionally kill those harmless beasts, then post them on a web page.

spike




From dan_ust at yahoo.com  Thu Jul 26 18:29:55 2012
From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2012 11:29:55 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] types of cars and ethics
In-Reply-To: <f92ef44ab74b26cbc6162dcd49404eb7.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
References: <mailman.1.1343304001.18640.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <1343308242.36543.YahooMailClassic@web114412.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
 <20120726134116.GJ12615@leitl.org>
 <f92ef44ab74b26cbc6162dcd49404eb7.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
Message-ID: <1343327395.55378.YahooMailNeo@web126201.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

MB wrote:

"Ugh. I like turtles too. I've stopped and moved them from the road - in the direction they were headed. The most challenging was a snapper!"


I don't really like turtles. They have a smell that's horrid and they're kind of freaky looking. Yet, I, too, have removed quite a few turtles from the road -- including one off a bike path. She was actually just finished laying eggs.

Sad to report, too, I had a friend who would be amongst those six percent. He once went out of his way to kill a rabbit with his car. And there were several occasions where he hit cats. Needless to say, we're no longer friends.


Regards,

Dan
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From spike66 at att.net  Thu Jul 26 18:32:39 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2012 11:32:39 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Aerographite
In-Reply-To: <CAAc1gFjOjUGBmUOvUyihAE2eAZSE3Ve7X9v3PUX0Dq9_8_vabA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAc1gFjOjUGBmUOvUyihAE2eAZSE3Ve7X9v3PUX0Dq9_8_vabA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00d701cd6b5d$09ee38b0$1dcaaa10$@att.net>


>...If you made a sphere of aerographite, covered with a gas non-permeable
membrane, for example a few layers of graphene, and partially evacuated the
inside, would it float in the air without being crushed by its pressure?

>...See here, aerographite weighs about 0.3 g per liter, and is pretty
stiff:

>...http://nextbigfuture.com/2012/07/aerographite-is-lightest-material.html#
more

>...Rafal


I can think of uses for it, but not this one.  You would be better off
filling your coated aerographite sphere with methane, which is cheap and
about half the density of air.  Helium is better but more expensive, and
hydrogen is better still, but more expensive than methane.  Heated air is
another possibility.  I would consider a large pressure differential as a
hopeless engineering path, even if we get a really good new material.

In the article, that graph of various materials' specific strength is a
little misleading.  Note the vertical axis is E/(rho)^2, which makes you
think it is better than everything.  I would argue it is about the same as
balsa wood in the parameter that really counts, but it isn't nearly as
strong as balsa wood by volume, so you need a lot more volume, which brings
it to a similar weight to a comparable balsa structure.  Of course, if we
have a new material which can be formed in any shape, and still have
balsa-ish mechanical properties, that would be cool.

If we can make this stuff in a 3D printer, that would be a huge
breakthrough.

They need to have Styrofoam somewhere on this chart.

Note that this chart shows aerographite a couple orders of magnitude less
dense than graphene aerogel, so if it had similar mechanical properties to
aerogel, it would be four orders of magnitude higher on this graph.  It is
showing about 2.5 orders, so I would expect it to be far more delicate than
aerogel.  Aerogel can be scratched with the corner of a piece of paper.

spike



From rtomek at ceti.pl  Thu Jul 26 18:49:12 2012
From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2012 20:49:12 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] Luciano Iess: Liquid ocean on Saturn's moon Titan
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1207262045320.19927@tau.ceti.pl>


http://earthsky.org/space/saturns-moon-titan-has-underground-ocean

moon TitanCassini spacecraft image of Titan		

Cassini spacecraft observation of ???tides??? in the solid surface of 
Titan suggest that this large moon of the planet Saturn has an ocean below 
ground.



 
Download???Embed 

Scientists have long suspected that Saturn???s largest moon, called Titan, 
might have a liquid ocean beneath its surface. New analysis of data from 
NASA???s Cassini spacecraft now has lead to the ???almost inescapable??? 
conclusion that, indeed, Saturn???s moon Titan likely harbors a layer of 
liquid water under its ice shell. This finding appeared in the June 28, 
2012 issue of the journal Science. EarthSky spoke to planetary scientist 
Luciano Iess of Sapienza University in Rome, Italy, who led the discovery 
team. He said:

The main finding is that underneath the external icy crust of Titan, there 
is an underneath ocean. There is a liquid layer. The study was carried out 
by studying, essentially, the tides on Titan.

This artist's concept shows a possible scenario for the internal structure 
of Titan, as suggested by data from NASA's Cassini spacecraft. Scientists 
have been trying to determine what is under Titan's organic-rich 
atmosphere and icy crust. Image credit: A. Tavani

Unlike the tides familiar to beach-goers on Earth, the tides on Titan are 
up and down movements of the surface ice. Earth also undergoes measurable 
land tides, caused by our nearby moon. If Titan were made entirely of 
stiff rock and ice, the scientists say, the gravitational attraction of 
Saturn would cause ???tides??? on Titan???s solid surface about three feet 
(one meter) in height. Instead, according too the estimates of Iess and 
his team, Titan???s tides are as large as about 30 feet (10 meters) ??? 10 
times larger than anticipated. 

The height of these moving bulges, or tides, suggests Titan is not made 
entirely of solid rocky material. That is why, scientists believe, there 
must be liquid water beneath Titan???s surface. 

The height of the land tides on Titan let Iess??? team estimate the amount 
of water in Titan???s underground ocean. Iess said there could be more 
than 10 times all the water of Earth. Because Titan???s surface is mostly 
made of water ice, which is abundant in moons of the outer solar system, 
scientists infer Titan???s ocean is likely mostly liquid water. Otherwise, 
Iess said, little is known about the underground ocean on Titan.

On Earth, water means life. Does the presence of an underground ocean on 
Titan indicate there is life on this moon of Saturn? Dr. Iess said:

We have discovered water. We don???t have to expect that this water 
contains life. It may or may not. I???m personally rather skeptical, but 
this is a matter of judgment, which may not be too scientific after all. 

Saturn's largest moon, Titan, as seen by the Cassini spacecraft. When we 
gaze at the moon with the eye, we see only the upper layers of its dense 
atmosphere. But many mysteries lie beneath.

The Cassini spacecraft made it possible to measure the height of the tides 
of solid ice on Saturn???s moon Titan. Cassini has been orbiting Saturn, 
and winding among the ringed planet???s moons, since 2004.

Bottom line: Cassini spacecraft observation of land tides in the solid 
surface of Titan suggest that this large moon of the planet Saturn has an 
ocean of liquid water below its icy surface. Planetary scientist Luciano 
Iess of Sapienza University in Rome, Italy led the discovery team. The 
team made their announcement in late June 2012.

Cassini scientists: Mystery of Saturn???s jet streams solved

-- 
Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.      **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home    **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...      **
**                                                                 **
** Tomasz Rola          mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com             **

From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Thu Jul 26 19:23:04 2012
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2012 15:23:04 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Aerographite
In-Reply-To: <00d701cd6b5d$09ee38b0$1dcaaa10$@att.net>
References: <CAAc1gFjOjUGBmUOvUyihAE2eAZSE3Ve7X9v3PUX0Dq9_8_vabA@mail.gmail.com>
 <00d701cd6b5d$09ee38b0$1dcaaa10$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAAc1gFgHCCcPh9TU_E760y6e6KGY81xscq1f9j6rKFkhE-_5mg@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 2:32 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>
>>...If you made a sphere of aerographite, covered with a gas non-permeable
> membrane, for example a few layers of graphene, and partially evacuated the
> inside, would it float in the air without being crushed by its pressure?
>
>>...See here, aerographite weighs about 0.3 g per liter, and is pretty
> stiff:
>
>>...http://nextbigfuture.com/2012/07/aerographite-is-lightest-material.html#
> more
>
>>...Rafal
>
>
> I can think of uses for it, but not this one.  You would be better off
> filling your coated aerographite sphere with methane, which is cheap and
> about half the density of air.  Helium is better but more expensive, and
> hydrogen is better still, but more expensive than methane.  Heated air is
> another possibility.  I would consider a large pressure differential as a
> hopeless engineering path, even if we get a really good new material.
>
> In the article, that graph of various materials' specific strength is a
> little misleading.  Note the vertical axis is E/(rho)^2, which makes you
> think it is better than everything.  I would argue it is about the same as
> balsa wood in the parameter that really counts, but it isn't nearly as
> strong as balsa wood by volume, so you need a lot more volume, which brings
> it to a similar weight to a comparable balsa structure.  Of course, if we
> have a new material which can be formed in any shape, and still have
> balsa-ish mechanical properties, that would be cool.

### Think about this - a 10 km high column of aerographite, perhaps
filled with methane, might be neutrally buoyant in Earth's
atmosphere.... does this suggest something?

Imagine building the space rail launcher with this stuff - the pillars
might need to be ridiculously thick but thanks to neutral average
buoyancy in most the atmosphere, you could build very tall structures
with almost no pressure on the foundations, and reaching well into
space.

Rafal


From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Thu Jul 26 18:36:31 2012
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2012 14:36:31 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Alzheimer's vaccine trial a success
In-Reply-To: <4FFDF6DC.1080908@infinitefaculty.org>
References: <CAL_armi0D5LFjfzeWVYQh8YU3mBSyinrvfA2pB80Wzt+wSFKXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FFDF6DC.1080908@infinitefaculty.org>
Message-ID: <CAAc1gFg9hLT7h9wonpGibM0Pr-XixB14qQUbzW8zmg3_173sGw@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jul 11, 2012 at 5:57 PM, Brian Manning Delaney
<listsb at infinitefaculty.org> wrote:
> El 2012-06-08 08:16, BillK escribi?:
>>
>> [NEWS 6 June] A study led by Karolinska Institutet reports for the
>> first time the positive effects of an active vaccine against
>> Alzheimer's disease. The new vaccine, CAD106, can prove a breakthrough
>> in the search for a cure for this seriously debilitating dementia
>> disease. The study is published in the distinguished scientific
>> journal Lancet Neurology.
>> <http://ki.se/ki/jsp/polopoly.jsp?l=en&d=130&a=145109&newsdep=130>

### This is study is useless. It does not show positive effects
against AD, merely evidence of immunization against amyloid, a form of
induced autoimmunity. All other studies of drugs using immune
mechanisms to eliminate amyloid failed (most recently bapizenumab -
http://www.fiercebiotech.com/story/jj-pfizer-report-ominous-phiii-failure-bapineuzumab-alzheimers-study/2012-07-23,
another billion dollars down the drain) - so why should this one work?

Amyloid is not the cause of AD. Repeat, then repeat again, and maybe
in 10 - 20 years when the current crop of AD researchers die out, the
amyloid hypothesis will die with them.

Rafal



From eugen at leitl.org  Thu Jul 26 20:41:47 2012
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2012 22:41:47 +0200
Subject: [ExI] types of cars and ethics
In-Reply-To: <1343327395.55378.YahooMailNeo@web126201.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.1.1343304001.18640.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <1343308242.36543.YahooMailClassic@web114412.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
 <20120726134116.GJ12615@leitl.org>
 <f92ef44ab74b26cbc6162dcd49404eb7.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
 <1343327395.55378.YahooMailNeo@web126201.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20120726204147.GV12615@leitl.org>

On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 11:29:55AM -0700, Dan wrote:
> MB wrote:
> 
> "Ugh. I like turtles too. I've stopped and moved them from the road - in the direction they were headed. The most challenging was a snapper!"
> 
> 
> I don't really like turtles. They have a smell that's horrid and they're kind of freaky looking. Yet, I, too, have removed quite a few turtles from the road -- including one off a bike path. She was actually just finished laying eggs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMNry4PE93Y
 
> Sad to report, too, I had a friend who would be amongst those six percent. He once went out of his way to kill a rabbit with his car. And there were several occasions where he hit cats. Needless to say, we're no longer friends.


From anders at aleph.se  Thu Jul 26 20:26:39 2012
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2012 21:26:39 +0100
Subject: [ExI] StemCells Inc.and Alzheimer's.
In-Reply-To: <CAOJFdbLfN93ZoreBDucHCKS3cOYiKazS7fM0VyxzMRb8whtugw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHUTwkPJeQzAGCnzYxsWxvvT=v1CsjvQc1RDqt8OYuFKhSoMmQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <1343186513.36940.YahooMailNeo@web126206.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <001e01cd6a1b$af011f40$0d035dc0$@att.net>
 <CAOJFdbLfN93ZoreBDucHCKS3cOYiKazS7fM0VyxzMRb8whtugw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5011A7FF.6020400@aleph.se>

On 26/07/2012 02:37, Mike Dougherty wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 12:12 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>> I treasure old friends with whom I shared experiences.  I like to talk to
>> them and see how well our recollections agree.  I have at least one friend
>> whose old memories have drifted towards the negative.
>>
>> OK friends, which is it with you?  Do your old memories drift?  If so, which
>> way?  Why do you suppose?  Are there other axes besides positive/negative?
>> Such as boring/interesting?  Weird/normal?
> Are the facts recorded in a neutral encoding and it is the reassembly
> that wraps them in your current mindset?

It looks like the encoding is biased by the original mindset, then gets 
modified by reconsolidation and other memory-warping processes, and then 
reassembly maps them in our current mindset. Memories do drift, 
especially if you have persistent mood disorders. But they are never 
neutral factual accounts.


> How much of the phenomenal Now is a merely the story we tell ourselves
> about the world "out there"?

What kind of answer would you like? Or would even make sense?

Remember that 75% of the input to the lateral geniculate nucleus comes 
from the cortex, not the eye.


> Why should our memories be any more or less malleable than so-called real time?

Because they would then be useless. Memory is about storing past 
information so that it can guide future decisions - if it is too 
malleable you don't get enough information into the future.


-- 
Anders Sandberg,
Future of Humanity Institute
Oxford Martin School
Faculty of Philosophy
Oxford University



From anders at aleph.se  Thu Jul 26 20:19:15 2012
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2012 21:19:15 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Aerographite
In-Reply-To: <CAAc1gFjOjUGBmUOvUyihAE2eAZSE3Ve7X9v3PUX0Dq9_8_vabA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAc1gFjOjUGBmUOvUyihAE2eAZSE3Ve7X9v3PUX0Dq9_8_vabA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5011A643.2070003@aleph.se>

On 26/07/2012 17:34, Rafal Smigrodzki wrote:
> A question for the mathematically proficient people: If you made a
> sphere of aerographite, covered with a gas non-permeable membrane, for
> example a few layers of graphene, and partially evacuated the inside,
> would it float in the air without being crushed by its pressure?

I think you have a problem. To quote from Wikipedia:

> Pressure vessels are held together against the gas pressure due to 
> tensile forces within the walls of the container. The normal (tensile) 
> stress <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stress_%28mechanics%29> in the 
> walls of the container is proportional to the pressure and radius of 
> the vessel and inversely proportional to the thickness of the 
> walls.^[5] <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pressure_vessel#cite_note-4> 
> Therefore pressure vessels are designed to have a thickness 
> proportional to the radius of tank and the pressure of the tank and 
> inversely proportional to the maximum allowed normal stress of the 
> particular material used in the walls of the container.

So an ultra-thin balloon needs to be ultra-stiff. 1 TPa stiffness is not 
really that useful when your balloon thickness is around 0.335 nm. Of 
course, given the lower pressure inside what we are looking for is not 
really the tensile stress but compression stress.


-- 
Anders Sandberg,
Future of Humanity Institute
Oxford Martin School
Faculty of Philosophy
Oxford University

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From mbb386 at main.nc.us  Thu Jul 26 21:44:58 2012
From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2012 17:44:58 -0400
Subject: [ExI] types of cars and ethics
In-Reply-To: <1343327395.55378.YahooMailNeo@web126201.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.1.1343304001.18640.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <1343308242.36543.YahooMailClassic@web114412.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
 <20120726134116.GJ12615@leitl.org>
 <f92ef44ab74b26cbc6162dcd49404eb7.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
 <1343327395.55378.YahooMailNeo@web126201.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <fc3bdbd2e71f31b468db0de8e4f6e9d3.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>

Dan wrote:.
>
> Sad to report, too, I had a friend who would be amongst
> those six percent. He once went out of his way to kill a
> rabbit with his car. And there were several occasions
> where he hit cats. Needless to say, we're no longer
> friends.
>


Good for you. :)

One of my friends worked in a lab with rats. His co-worker
enjoyed hurting/teasing the rats and my friend complained
to authorities, but nothing was done.  It was a state job,
and the guy hadn't done anything "wrong".  My friend
changed his work shifts to avoid the fellow. Said it was
*disgusting*.

Regards,
MB



From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Thu Jul 26 21:47:30 2012
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2012 17:47:30 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Fwd:  Alzheimer's vaccine trial a success
In-Reply-To: <CAAc1gFjXo54RCNpHt7ox_a955ofbhFctx4XvtkVvVzEdbLo5EA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armi0D5LFjfzeWVYQh8YU3mBSyinrvfA2pB80Wzt+wSFKXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FFDF6DC.1080908@infinitefaculty.org>
 <CAAc1gFg9hLT7h9wonpGibM0Pr-XixB14qQUbzW8zmg3_173sGw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1CQcS1wo6+kkhakd4xq+W88QmjhV_326NquCenCMN6-g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFjXo54RCNpHt7ox_a955ofbhFctx4XvtkVvVzEdbLo5EA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAAc1gFhNBLFsCiRRjhP_yM0NfLDjDeqmJ-S7eMpnxOhPz+QtFA@mail.gmail.com>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Rafal Smigrodzki <rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 5:47 PM
Subject: Re: [ExI] Alzheimer's vaccine trial a success
To: John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com>


On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 3:51 PM, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 2:36 PM, Rafal Smigrodzki
> <rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> > Amyloid is not the cause of AD. Repeat, then repeat again,
>
>
> Maybe, maybe not, but they are certainly closely linked; just a few days ago
> it was reported that people with a rare mutation in the gene that codes for
> the  amyloid-beta precursor protein are much more unlikely than the general
> population to get Alzheimer's disease. And in general those lucky enough to
> have this mutation have better mental function when they are between 80 and
> 100 than those who don't.

### Yes, we have known for something like 20 years that APP mutations
can cause familial AD (FAD) but there was no linkage between APP gene
and SAD (sporadic AD, about 99% of all cases). And now we have another
very rare mutation that has the opposite effect - so what? I know that
the  AD people are crowing about it
(http://www.alzforum.org/new/detail.asp?id=3209) but why? Again, more
than 99.9% of the elderly population, both with AD and without it,
don't have the mutation. If APP gene is almost always identical
between AD and healthy subjects, how could anybody claim that APP is
the *cause* (not a correlate) of AD? And the doubts go further:
Clearly, something affects amyloid processing in the elderly. A large
fraction of us will develop amyloid deposits. A large fraction of us
will become demented. Some of us will have both, some of us will have
neither, and some of us will have one but not the other. In other
words, APP gene mutations are not necessary for senile dementia to
occur, and amyloid accumulation is neither sufficient nor necessary
for dementia to occur. Removing amyloid or directly manipulating its
production by pharmacological means (gamma secretase inhibitors) have
completely and repeatedly failed in human studies - what else would a
non-biased person need to reject the idea that amyloid is the cause of
AD?

Rafal


-- 
Rafal Smigrodzki, MD-PhD
Senior Scientist,
Gencia Corporation
706 B Forest St.

Charlottesville, VA 22903

tel: (434) 295-4800

fax: (434) 295-4951



This electronic message transmission contains information from the
biotechnology firm of Gencia Corporation which may be confidential or
privileged. The information is intended to be for the use of the
individual or entity named above. If you are not the intended
recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use
of the contents of this information is prohibited. If you have
received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us by
telephone (434-295-4800) or by electronic mail
(fportell at genciabiotech.com) immediately.


From pharos at gmail.com  Thu Jul 26 22:09:59 2012
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2012 23:09:59 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: Alzheimer's vaccine trial a success
In-Reply-To: <CAAc1gFhNBLFsCiRRjhP_yM0NfLDjDeqmJ-S7eMpnxOhPz+QtFA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armi0D5LFjfzeWVYQh8YU3mBSyinrvfA2pB80Wzt+wSFKXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <4FFDF6DC.1080908@infinitefaculty.org>
 <CAAc1gFg9hLT7h9wonpGibM0Pr-XixB14qQUbzW8zmg3_173sGw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1CQcS1wo6+kkhakd4xq+W88QmjhV_326NquCenCMN6-g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFjXo54RCNpHt7ox_a955ofbhFctx4XvtkVvVzEdbLo5EA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFhNBLFsCiRRjhP_yM0NfLDjDeqmJ-S7eMpnxOhPz+QtFA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armjL_mJobGedOH3b3F=s8TY29H+cx2YSEvu_nZqwRCdp1g@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 10:47 PM, Rafal Smigrodzki wrote:
> ### Yes, we have known for something like 20 years that APP mutations
> can cause familial AD (FAD) but there was no linkage between APP gene
> and SAD (sporadic AD, about 99% of all cases). And now we have another
> very rare mutation that has the opposite effect - so what? I know that
> the  AD people are crowing about it
> (http://www.alzforum.org/new/detail.asp?id=3209) but why? Again, more
> than 99.9% of the elderly population, both with AD and without it,
> don't have the mutation. If APP gene is almost always identical
> between AD and healthy subjects, how could anybody claim that APP is
> the *cause* (not a correlate) of AD? And the doubts go further:
> Clearly, something affects amyloid processing in the elderly. A large
> fraction of us will develop amyloid deposits. A large fraction of us
> will become demented. Some of us will have both, some of us will have
> neither, and some of us will have one but not the other. In other
> words, APP gene mutations are not necessary for senile dementia to
> occur, and amyloid accumulation is neither sufficient nor necessary
> for dementia to occur. Removing amyloid or directly manipulating its
> production by pharmacological means (gamma secretase inhibitors) have
> completely and repeatedly failed in human studies - what else would a
> non-biased person need to reject the idea that amyloid is the cause of
> AD?
>
>

Probably because there is not just one cause of Alzheimer's. Just like
there is not just one cause of cancer.
These are complex diseases. There are many types of dementia, just as
there are many types of cancer.  I suspect that repairing a weakened
or failing immune system would greatly benefit many patients.

There are encouraging reports on this line of research for cancer and AD.


BillK


From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Thu Jul 26 22:53:22 2012
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2012 15:53:22 -0700
Subject: [ExI] types of cars and ethics
In-Reply-To: <fc3bdbd2e71f31b468db0de8e4f6e9d3.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
References: <mailman.1.1343304001.18640.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <1343308242.36543.YahooMailClassic@web114412.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
 <20120726134116.GJ12615@leitl.org>
 <f92ef44ab74b26cbc6162dcd49404eb7.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
 <1343327395.55378.YahooMailNeo@web126201.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <fc3bdbd2e71f31b468db0de8e4f6e9d3.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy2zANyCOVyVtc9QG68zJ6ccNsZVS3L4q2jzRWYJJZjTmQ@mail.gmail.com>

And then there are those drivers who will will go out of their way to hit
pedestrians, and especially the homeless...  If robotics were much more
advanced, I would want to see studies done on that subject.


John
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From jrd1415 at gmail.com  Thu Jul 26 23:27:17 2012
From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2012 16:27:17 -0700
Subject: [ExI] StemCells Inc.and Alzheimer's.
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB6Hd_Kz7LRyiF6KsG6XCL+a+hFomxtAnomrZppitwKaXA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB6Hd_Kz7LRyiF6KsG6XCL+a+hFomxtAnomrZppitwKaXA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHUTwkPuxgEziqKpZRT9mO17jQ+=uN8OseCgeVRX0405jLND_A@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks for this comment, Keith.  I've been watching for news about
joint/cartilage regeneration.  Like this one:

http://www.technologyreview.com/biomedicine/25893/?nlid=3312

The remarkable success -- or apparent success -- of the above research
persuaded me that we could expect some unprecedented therapies in
short order.  But I hadn't heard that they had arrived.  This
"quietness" is particularly surprising considering the massive (a
gazillion arthritics waiting impatiently) demand.

Please tell us more about your wife's treatment, the prognosis going
in, and the results coming out.

(Now I'll read the rest of the posts in this thread.)

Need new knees and a new right foot.

Best Jeff Davis

              "Everything's hard till you know how to do it."
                                      Ray Charles


On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 7:49 AM, Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> wrote:
> The FDA has ruled that it's illegal to remove stem cells, expand them
> (by growth) and reinject them into the person they were extracted from
> in the US.
>
> So my wife is having the procedure done for her knees in the Cayman Islands.
>
> They had a power blackout here most of yesterday.
>
> Keith


From mbb386 at main.nc.us  Fri Jul 27 00:05:39 2012
From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2012 20:05:39 -0400
Subject: [ExI] types of cars and ethics
In-Reply-To: <CAGSKFy2zANyCOVyVtc9QG68zJ6ccNsZVS3L4q2jzRWYJJZjTmQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1343304001.18640.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <1343308242.36543.YahooMailClassic@web114412.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
 <20120726134116.GJ12615@leitl.org>
 <f92ef44ab74b26cbc6162dcd49404eb7.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
 <1343327395.55378.YahooMailNeo@web126201.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <fc3bdbd2e71f31b468db0de8e4f6e9d3.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
 <CAGSKFy2zANyCOVyVtc9QG68zJ6ccNsZVS3L4q2jzRWYJJZjTmQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <152b8f6bc6f048c71c7af6b20f86e9a6.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>


John wrote:
> And then there are those drivers who will will go out of
> their way to hit
> pedestrians, and especially the homeless...  If robotics
> were much more
> advanced, I would want to see studies done on that
> subject.
>
>

What kind of horrible place do you live? That's right
disgusting.

I will say some bicycle riders like to taunt drivers -
which leads to hot tempers and mean words.

Regards,
MB



From msd001 at gmail.com  Fri Jul 27 00:10:15 2012
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2012 20:10:15 -0400
Subject: [ExI] StemCells Inc.and Alzheimer's.
In-Reply-To: <5011A7FF.6020400@aleph.se>
References: <CAHUTwkPJeQzAGCnzYxsWxvvT=v1CsjvQc1RDqt8OYuFKhSoMmQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <1343186513.36940.YahooMailNeo@web126206.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <001e01cd6a1b$af011f40$0d035dc0$@att.net>
 <CAOJFdbLfN93ZoreBDucHCKS3cOYiKazS7fM0VyxzMRb8whtugw@mail.gmail.com>
 <5011A7FF.6020400@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <CAOJFdbKQf1cy=_n3bT7LD=X9zSDbCBsyz3QSCnFJwTOxbQKwZw@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 4:26 PM, Anders Sandberg <anders at aleph.se> wrote:
> Remember that 75% of the input to the lateral geniculate nucleus comes from
> the cortex, not the eye.

Nope, can't remember that; it's the first I've heard of such.

>> Why should our memories be any more or less malleable than so-called real
>> time?
>
> Because they would then be useless. Memory is about storing past information
> so that it can guide future decisions - if it is too malleable you don't get
> enough information into the future.

How much is enough?  I don't feel I ever recorded "enough" in the
first moment.  I also feel like this is effect is getting worse as
more information changes state in each moment of the world in which we
live.  It is already such that the Internet remembers more about the
90's, 80's, 70's than I will ever recall.  No doubt the Internet will
soon know more about my life than even my wife is aware of my life (or
than *I* am aware of my life).  This is partially a problem of
attention-span and largely a fact that machines are better at
remembering stuff humans.

... but I expect that you will find that sentiment wrong for many
reasons.  I understand.


From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Fri Jul 27 00:40:09 2012
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2012 17:40:09 -0700
Subject: [ExI] types of cars and ethics
In-Reply-To: <152b8f6bc6f048c71c7af6b20f86e9a6.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
References: <mailman.1.1343304001.18640.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <1343308242.36543.YahooMailClassic@web114412.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
 <20120726134116.GJ12615@leitl.org>
 <f92ef44ab74b26cbc6162dcd49404eb7.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
 <1343327395.55378.YahooMailNeo@web126201.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <fc3bdbd2e71f31b468db0de8e4f6e9d3.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
 <CAGSKFy2zANyCOVyVtc9QG68zJ6ccNsZVS3L4q2jzRWYJJZjTmQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <152b8f6bc6f048c71c7af6b20f86e9a6.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy1im7_C0mnc=YBykfnFH9Jzu29BJt9S5E1q9ie17hmeDQ@mail.gmail.com>

 I wrote:
And then there are those drivers who will will go out of their way to hit
pedestrians, and especially the homeless...  If robotics were much more
advanced, I would want to see studies done on that subject.
>>>


MB replied:

>  What kind of horrible place do you live? That's right
> disgusting.
>


Phoenix/Mesa, Arizona...


John
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From jrd1415 at gmail.com  Fri Jul 27 00:48:19 2012
From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2012 17:48:19 -0700
Subject: [ExI] StemCells Inc.and Alzheimer's.
In-Reply-To: <5011A7FF.6020400@aleph.se>
References: <CAHUTwkPJeQzAGCnzYxsWxvvT=v1CsjvQc1RDqt8OYuFKhSoMmQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <1343186513.36940.YahooMailNeo@web126206.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <001e01cd6a1b$af011f40$0d035dc0$@att.net>
 <CAOJFdbLfN93ZoreBDucHCKS3cOYiKazS7fM0VyxzMRb8whtugw@mail.gmail.com>
 <5011A7FF.6020400@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <CAHUTwkMsED50NS7CEJVPFs2+Ziym+5VWcVSHA+uKBPCw1xQUew@mail.gmail.com>

Anders writes:

> Remember that 75% of the input to the lateral geniculate nucleus comes from
> the cortex, not the eye.

Anders,

A question or two.

Synaptic firing periodicity.

A neuron to neuron synapse fires.  Axonal terminus to dendritic input.
 How frequently can it do this?    [What is the neuronal firing
frequency?  Is it variable in a given neuron, or in different neuron
types, or by location/function?  I'm talking about brain only --
include the brain stem if you want -- not the sympathetic nervous
system, spinal cord, or motor neurons.]

The signal arrives at its dendritic destinations, where, presumably,
the process is repeated.

Expand this isolated microscopic event by billions of neurons and
trillions of synapses, to the whole brain in glorious action.  This
"action" is more or less continuous from pre-natal to mortal
close-of-business, is it not?

>From Wikipedia: Neural oscillations

"At the level of neural ensembles, synchronized activity of large
numbers of neurons can give rise to macroscopic oscillations,... .
Oscillatory activity in groups of neurons generally arise from
feedback connections between the neurons that result in the
synchronization of their firing patterns."

I'm trying to get a picture of the spacial distribution of the firing
pattern: the feedback loops, the "synchronization" of these firings,
and from-where-to-where-and-back-again layout.

For instance, you wrote:

"...75% of the input to the lateral geniculate nucleus comes from the cortex..."

The cortex is the outer layer (or is that the neocortex?).  Where is
the geniculate nucleus?  And after receiving the input does it
repeatedly fire back to the cortex in a feedback loop?  Or,
alternatively, does it fire to other intermediate locations and only
then back to the cortex?  Is there ongoing oscillation here, and
synchronization?

I've broken my rule here, not to ask a question before doing my
homework, so I'll take a link to the answer, in lieu of a long reply.

Thanks.

Best, Jeff Davis

        "You are what you think."
                       Jeff Davis


From spike66 at att.net  Fri Jul 27 01:40:12 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2012 18:40:12 -0700
Subject: [ExI] types of cars and ethics
In-Reply-To: <CAGSKFy2zANyCOVyVtc9QG68zJ6ccNsZVS3L4q2jzRWYJJZjTmQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1343304001.18640.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <1343308242.36543.YahooMailClassic@web114412.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
 <20120726134116.GJ12615@leitl.org>
 <f92ef44ab74b26cbc6162dcd49404eb7.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
 <1343327395.55378.YahooMailNeo@web126201.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <fc3bdbd2e71f31b468db0de8e4f6e9d3.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
 <CAGSKFy2zANyCOVyVtc9QG68zJ6ccNsZVS3L4q2jzRWYJJZjTmQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <008901cd6b98$c44bb7b0$4ce32710$@att.net>

 

 

>.From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of John Grigg
Subject: Re: [ExI] types of cars and ethics

 

>.And then there are those drivers who will will go out of their way to hit
pedestrians, and especially the homeless...  If robotics were much more
advanced, I would want to see studies done on that subject.  John

 

One of the biggest challenges for robo-cars will be how to deal with furry
beasts bolting into the path.  With the proper IR sensors, the software will
detect a deer, rabbit or dog beside the road from a greater distance.  I
would suggest slowing for anything larger than a squirrel.  What I don't
know is how to deal with birds, for they are warm and are more likely to
hang around beside the road.

 

That bit about drivers swerving to flatten beasts is really working on my
mind.  It reminds me of slaying bulls for fun and thrills.  Robo-cars will
never swerve to hit things, but may be annoying with excessive caution when
birds perch beside the road.

 

spike

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From spike66 at att.net  Fri Jul 27 01:57:02 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2012 18:57:02 -0700
Subject: [ExI] robo-cars again, was:  RE:  types of cars and ethics
Message-ID: <008e01cd6b9b$1e3bf080$5ab3d180$@att.net>

 

From: spike [mailto:spike66 at att.net] 
.

 

>.That bit about drivers swerving to flatten beasts is really working on my
mind.  It reminds me of slaying bulls for fun and thrills.  Robo-cars will
never swerve to hit things, but may be annoying with excessive caution when
birds perch beside the road. spike

 

Now that I think about it, an early robo-car will be programmed to pass only
under certain circumstances.  I can see this being a problem with bicycles
and even pedestrians.  I can easily envision an early robo-car slowing all
the way down to 5 kph, and following meekly a few paces behind a pedestrian,
as a string of robo-cars behind it follow suit all the way down to walking
speed, as their enraged occupants scream for the wretched device to get
going.  This reaction of course assumes the young couple is finished with
their activities, or the occupant is awake.

 

It isn't clear to me that there is a good solution to the bicycle/pedestrian
problem, but it has become clear to me that in one form or another,
robo-cars are coming anyway and this is a problem that needs to be solved.
The pent-up demand for a self-driver is enormous, from all those people who
have lost their drivers' licenses as a result of ageing eyes and slowing
reflexes.  For so many people, a self-driver does not need to go fast or
far.  They only need to haul grandma to the grocery store and bingo at the
church.

 

How many of us have parents or grandparents who really need a robo-car now?
Mine do, very soon.  Right now would be an excellent time for those things
to show up at the local car dealer.  They have some really good newish cars
they can trade for one, three V-8s with all the trimmings for a small 4
banger with no steering wheel.  

 

Friends, there are buttloads of money to be made here.  Robo-cars will be
the fourth wave in our lifetimes: computers, internet, cell phones, now
robo-cars.

 

spike

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From spike66 at att.net  Fri Jul 27 02:07:18 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2012 19:07:18 -0700
Subject: [ExI] types of cars and ethics
In-Reply-To: <152b8f6bc6f048c71c7af6b20f86e9a6.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
References: <mailman.1.1343304001.18640.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <1343308242.36543.YahooMailClassic@web114412.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
 <20120726134116.GJ12615@leitl.org>
 <f92ef44ab74b26cbc6162dcd49404eb7.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
 <1343327395.55378.YahooMailNeo@web126201.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <fc3bdbd2e71f31b468db0de8e4f6e9d3.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
 <CAGSKFy2zANyCOVyVtc9QG68zJ6ccNsZVS3L4q2jzRWYJJZjTmQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <152b8f6bc6f048c71c7af6b20f86e9a6.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
Message-ID: <009901cd6b9c$8d05a500$a710ef00$@att.net>


>... On Behalf Of MB


>...I will say some bicycle riders like to taunt drivers - which leads to
hot tempers and mean words.


_______________________________________________

You said something important here MB.  Driving software will not get angry.
If a bicycle rider is poking along in the middle of the lane, a robo-driver
will likely fall in behind and contentedly follow indefinitely, without a
trace of simulated anger or aggressiveness.  This is a bigger problem than
the controls challenges of guiding the Detroit.  

Suggestions please: what if we get a number of ideological anti-internal
combustion bicycle riders who wait until they see a robo-car coming, then
just ride out in front and block progress?  They know the robo-car will not
be nearly as big a risk as doing the same to a bio-driver.  A few
anti-global-warming idealists could gum up the progress easily and
relatively safely, and wouldn't even be breaking the law.  In California, a
bicyclist has all the same rights as the internal combustion devices.  They
too can legally carry a sidearm in most circumstances.

spike



From msd001 at gmail.com  Fri Jul 27 02:08:55 2012
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2012 22:08:55 -0400
Subject: [ExI] types of cars and ethics
In-Reply-To: <008901cd6b98$c44bb7b0$4ce32710$@att.net>
References: <mailman.1.1343304001.18640.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <1343308242.36543.YahooMailClassic@web114412.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
 <20120726134116.GJ12615@leitl.org>
 <f92ef44ab74b26cbc6162dcd49404eb7.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
 <1343327395.55378.YahooMailNeo@web126201.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <fc3bdbd2e71f31b468db0de8e4f6e9d3.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
 <CAGSKFy2zANyCOVyVtc9QG68zJ6ccNsZVS3L4q2jzRWYJJZjTmQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <008901cd6b98$c44bb7b0$4ce32710$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAOJFdbJy2VaOba7dWnHbngt0ZpKy4x9b0NXBQXwPpnNGCbmxNQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 9:40 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> That bit about drivers swerving to flatten beasts is really working on my
> mind.  It reminds me of slaying bulls for fun and thrills.  Robo-cars will
> never swerve to hit things, but may be annoying with excessive caution when
> birds perch beside the road.

I'm sure auto^2 will be no worse than people in deal with a crossing
line of geese.  Seriously people, armored with even a Mini you should
be brave enough to advance slowly on the geese - eventually _their_
survival instincts will keep them on the curb long enough to assert
your dominance over the land.

stupid birds - they can fly, why are they walking around in our roads?


From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Fri Jul 27 14:18:29 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2012 16:18:29 +0200
Subject: [ExI] types of cars and ethics
In-Reply-To: <20120726091706.GV12615@leitl.org>
References: <20120726091706.GV12615@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a4WM=HCe=yRYJ3mPEobkn8GbvOx_b54QjK7F4+Bo-h-Mw@mail.gmail.com>

On 26 July 2012 11:17, Eugen Leitl <eugen at leitl.org> wrote:
>
> (take this as an anecdote, not a scientific study)
>
> http://gizmodo.com/5927083/roadkill-experiment-shows-that-six-percent-of-drivers-are-sadistic-animal-killers
>
> Roadkill Experiment Shows That Six Percent of Drivers Are Sadistic Animal
> Killers

No, come on, they sound just as plain-vanilla killers. A truly
sadistic killer stops the car and torture the animal for a while
before crushing it under its wheels... :-)

-- 
Stefano Vaj


From dan_ust at yahoo.com  Fri Jul 27 19:05:02 2012
From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2012 12:05:02 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] types of cars and ethics
In-Reply-To: <fc3bdbd2e71f31b468db0de8e4f6e9d3.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
References: <mailman.1.1343304001.18640.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <1343308242.36543.YahooMailClassic@web114412.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
 <20120726134116.GJ12615@leitl.org>
 <f92ef44ab74b26cbc6162dcd49404eb7.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
 <1343327395.55378.YahooMailNeo@web126201.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <fc3bdbd2e71f31b468db0de8e4f6e9d3.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
Message-ID: <1343415902.91017.YahooMailNeo@web126201.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

MB wrote:

"One of my friends worked in a lab with rats. His co-worker
enjoyed hurting/teasing the rats and my friend complained
to authorities, but nothing was done.? It was a state job,
and the guy hadn't done anything "wrong".? My friend
changed his work shifts to avoid the fellow. Said it was
*disgusting*."

I'd keep an eye on the sadist. He might escalate and, if and when he does, there's a chance to nip this in the bud.

Regards,

Dan
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From mbb386 at main.nc.us  Fri Jul 27 20:10:55 2012
From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2012 16:10:55 -0400
Subject: [ExI] types of cars and ethics
In-Reply-To: <1343415902.91017.YahooMailNeo@web126201.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.1.1343304001.18640.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <1343308242.36543.YahooMailClassic@web114412.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
 <20120726134116.GJ12615@leitl.org>
 <f92ef44ab74b26cbc6162dcd49404eb7.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
 <1343327395.55378.YahooMailNeo@web126201.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <fc3bdbd2e71f31b468db0de8e4f6e9d3.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
 <1343415902.91017.YahooMailNeo@web126201.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <e74eb2d7809a2dd83bda3f08fc7429f5.squirrel@main.nc.us>


Dan wrote:
> I'd keep an eye on the sadist. He might escalate and, if
> and when he does, there's a chance to nip this in the
> bud.
>

You are right - people like that need watching.

This was long ago and far away. I don't know the end of
the story.

Parents need to *notice* - if they see the kid doing hurty
stuff, act quickly. As you say "Nip it in the bud".
Preferably when they're young.

That said, I was a pretty nasty kid myself. And grew up to
be a bit of a bleeding heart. ???

Regards,
MB
ps. I'm glad you're still on this list - a while back I
thought you might be falling away, funding problems.  I
liked your website and stuff.



From jrd1415 at gmail.com  Fri Jul 27 22:59:55 2012
From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2012 15:59:55 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Aerographite
In-Reply-To: <CAAc1gFjOjUGBmUOvUyihAE2eAZSE3Ve7X9v3PUX0Dq9_8_vabA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAc1gFjOjUGBmUOvUyihAE2eAZSE3Ve7X9v3PUX0Dq9_8_vabA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHUTwkPSziRjH0oNirM61vqnvS_aEVqy7Vuzh34hEfyLa0ZkBQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 9:34 AM, Rafal Smigrodzki
<rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com> wrote:
> A question for the mathematically proficient people: If you made a
> sphere of aerographite, covered with a gas non-permeable membrane, for
> example a few layers of graphene, and partially evacuated the inside,
> would it float in the air without being crushed by its pressure?

                                ***********************************

Start with the ideal gas law:

PV = nRT.

We propose to suck out some of the air from inside the Aerographite
sphere to reduce the mass of (sphere + air) to match the mass of an
equal volume of air at STP..  The reduced air pressure inside the
sphere will be P(2), and the reduced amount of air will be n(2).

V, R, and T are constant in this case, so that

PV = nRT   =>     P/n = RT/V  = a constant.

P/n being a constant means that

P(1)/n(1) = P(2)/n(2), so that

P(2) = n(2)/n(1) x P(1).

density of aerographite = 0.3 g/l
density of air at STP    = 1.3 g/l

Neutral buoyancy requires that:

mass of aerographite sphere + mass of air inside = mass of air displaced

Rearranging gives:

mass of air inside = mass of air displaced - mass aerographite sphere

For a sphere with a volume of one liter, this becomes:

mass of air inside = m(2) = 1.3 g - 0.3 g = 1.0 g

The ratio of m(1) to m(2) is the same as the ratio of n(1) to n(2), so

 n(2)/n(1) = m(2)/m(1) = 1.0/1.3 = 0.769

Then P(2) = n(2)/n(1) x P(1) = 0.769 P(1)

P(1) = Air at STP  =   101   kPa = 14.7 psi
P(2) = 0.769 P(1)  =    77.7 kPa = 11.3 psi

P(2) - P(1) =               23.3 kPa =   3.4 psi

This is the unbalanced pressure, the net pressure on the outside of
the sphere, when using air as the gas inside.

As the sphere is "solid", the above pressure load per unit area -- in
this case, 3.4 psi -- equals the compression load per unit area

So, if the compression strength -- the maximum loading without
deformation, expressed in psi -- is greater than 3.4 psi, the
neutrally-buoyant-sphere will not be crushed.

If the compression strength of the aerographite sphere is greater than
14.7 psi, you could pump all the air out, pump the interior down to a
vacuum, without crush failure.  This would create the condition of
maximum buoyancy, which would allow the sphere to rise to its maximum
altitude, where the air density equals its own 0.3 g/liter.

A little note:Because air density decreases with altitude, the 0.769
sphere will only be neutrally buoyant near sea level.  So only there,
can it displace enough mass to support itself.  And there it will
settle, at the equilibrium altitude, and hang.

I couldn't extract a compressive strength from the information in the article.

 Help, anyone?

That was fun.

Best, Jeff Davis

 "Everything's hard till you know how to do it."
                    Ray Charles


From jrd1415 at gmail.com  Fri Jul 27 23:11:01 2012
From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2012 16:11:01 -0700
Subject: [ExI] types of cars and ethics
In-Reply-To: <00cd01cd6b54$7b315d30$71941790$@att.net>
References: <20120726091706.GV12615@leitl.org>
 <00cd01cd6b54$7b315d30$71941790$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAHUTwkPj0MiUOZX_udLiQTToKY4gqTuR4fShPLejVSWBKiWn4g@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 10:31 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

> Back to the turtles for a minute.  Any egregious bastard who would intentionally flatten a turtle, oy.  I propose we set up a camera down the road from the rubber turtle and snap photos of the drivers who intentionally kill those harmless beasts, then post them on a web page.

"He sees you when you're sleeping
He's knows when you're awake
He can tell if you've been bad or good..."

Your idea is better than mine, Spike.  I figured a rubber turtle with
a caltrop inside.  Run over it once, never run over it -- or a real
turtle -- again.

Best, Jeff Davis

     "And I think to myself, what a wonderful world."
                               Louie Armstrong



From anders at aleph.se  Fri Jul 27 23:51:16 2012
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2012 00:51:16 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Aerographite
In-Reply-To: <CAHUTwkPSziRjH0oNirM61vqnvS_aEVqy7Vuzh34hEfyLa0ZkBQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAc1gFjOjUGBmUOvUyihAE2eAZSE3Ve7X9v3PUX0Dq9_8_vabA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHUTwkPSziRjH0oNirM61vqnvS_aEVqy7Vuzh34hEfyLa0ZkBQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <50132974.7010305@aleph.se>

On 27/07/2012 23:59, Jeff Davis wrote:
> I couldn't extract a compressive strength from the information in the 
> article. Help, anyone?

This paper 
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/adma.201201519/abstract
has a graphene structure with compressive strength of 361 MPa.

However, according to http://www.zeitnews.org/node/2449 (which discusses 
a folded form that has even higher compressive strength) the compressive 
strength of "real" graphene is less than 2 GPa. "As is well known, 
graphene can't withstand any compression," one researcher says - but 
that is presumably a unidirectional compression rather than an uniform one.



-- 
Anders Sandberg,
Future of Humanity Institute
Oxford Martin School
Faculty of Philosophy
Oxford University

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From spike66 at att.net  Sat Jul 28 01:17:42 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2012 18:17:42 -0700
Subject: [ExI] types of cars and ethics
In-Reply-To: <1343415902.91017.YahooMailNeo@web126201.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.1.1343304001.18640.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <1343308242.36543.YahooMailClassic@web114412.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
 <20120726134116.GJ12615@leitl.org>
 <f92ef44ab74b26cbc6162dcd49404eb7.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
 <1343327395.55378.YahooMailNeo@web126201.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <fc3bdbd2e71f31b468db0de8e4f6e9d3.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
 <1343415902.91017.YahooMailNeo@web126201.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <00b301cd6c5e$ca031e20$5e095a60$@att.net>

 

 

>. On Behalf Of Dan
Subject: Re: [ExI] types of cars and ethics

 

MB wrote:

>."One of my friends worked in a lab with rats. His co-worker
enjoyed hurting/teasing the rats .

 

 

I am seriously considering going back to vegetarianism, just to apologize
for my species to cows.  We can be such bastards.  On the other hand, we
humans have many socially redeeming qualities.  I know for a fact one can
eat little or no meat without harming your health at all, or possibly even
benefit, if you balance the diet correctly.  I don't know what makes a
fraction of humankind enjoy hurting beasts.  I hope we can eventually fix
that.

 

spike

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From anders at aleph.se  Sat Jul 28 02:26:04 2012
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2012 03:26:04 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Pistorius
Message-ID: <50134DBC.4060204@aleph.se>

I have been asked to write a piece on Oscar Pistorius participation in 
the olympics (and not the paralympics). Not being very sports interested 
myself, I would be curious to hear what more sports interested members 
of the list (if any) make of the whole thing.

Normalization of enhancement, the olympics as a biomedical freak show, 
personality cult, or recognition of enormous tenacity?

(At least the opening ceremony gave a special recognition to Sir Tim 
Berners-Lee - when was the last time a scientist or technologist was 
honored like that?)

-- 
Anders Sandberg,
Future of Humanity Institute
Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University



From spike66 at att.net  Sat Jul 28 02:33:07 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2012 19:33:07 -0700
Subject: [ExI] types of cars and ethics
In-Reply-To: <CAHUTwkPj0MiUOZX_udLiQTToKY4gqTuR4fShPLejVSWBKiWn4g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20120726091706.GV12615@leitl.org>
 <00cd01cd6b54$7b315d30$71941790$@att.net>
 <CAHUTwkPj0MiUOZX_udLiQTToKY4gqTuR4fShPLejVSWBKiWn4g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00c801cd6c69$53093290$f91b97b0$@att.net>



>... On Behalf Of Jeff Davis
...
Subject: Re: [ExI] types of cars and ethics

On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 10:31 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

>>... Back to the turtles for a minute.  Any egregious bastard who would
intentionally flatten a turtle, oy.  I propose we set up a camera down the
road from the rubber turtle and snap photos of the drivers who intentionally
kill those harmless beasts, then post them on a web page.

>...Your idea is better than mine, Spike.  I figured a rubber turtle with a
caltrop inside.  Run over it once, never run over it -- or a real turtle --
again.  Best, Jeff Davis


Have we any US legal eagles here?  If we did something like this, imagine,
we could create a perfect image, since we would know exactly where the evil
grimace would be located.  The operator's face would be about 1.5 meters
above the road and about 1.5 meters to the left of the turtle.  Imagine how
we could set up and pre-focus a good camera, making stunningly good photos
of some evil bastard intentionally slaying a harmless beast.  Legal eagles,
what US laws, if any, do we violate if we post those in some public forum
such as evilbastards.com for some well-deserved public shame?  How is it any
different from PeopleofWalmart.com?  There the subjects haven't done
anything wrong nor illegal, they haven't killed anything, but rather they
just dress weird.  No cruelty or actual antisocial behavior there, ja?  So
if we took pictures and posted them of people flattening a turtle, are there
any possible lawsuits?  I would think the first amendment would cover it.

spike





From spike66 at att.net  Sat Jul 28 03:46:16 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2012 20:46:16 -0700
Subject: [ExI] olympic opening ceremonies
Message-ID: <00d301cd6c73$8c5768f0$a5063ad0$@att.net>

I just finished viewing the Olympic opening ceremonies, so I have a message
for the British among us, BillK and some others here, I think Max is
originally from England and others.  Brits, I am very proud of your country,
and I am very proud of you.  That show was excellent, so well done.  That
history of the industrial revolution theme was BRILLIANT!  It really defines
kewall.  In the theme of the value of competition, may these opening
ceremonies set the standard, and may they be the goal to match and exceed
for future Olympic hosts, and may future Olympic shows rise to the very high
standards set by England in 2012.

 

Brits, may evolution save the queen.  I hope your athletes win a pile of
medals, a tall, wide and deep pile of them.

 

spike

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From kellycoinguy at gmail.com  Sat Jul 28 04:38:40 2012
From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2012 22:38:40 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Aerographite
In-Reply-To: <50132974.7010305@aleph.se>
References: <CAAc1gFjOjUGBmUOvUyihAE2eAZSE3Ve7X9v3PUX0Dq9_8_vabA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHUTwkPSziRjH0oNirM61vqnvS_aEVqy7Vuzh34hEfyLa0ZkBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <50132974.7010305@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <CAPy8RwZRc00FdC=5E8Vfk2+506uy1ZuSM00dWk_chcW1Qw2HLA@mail.gmail.com>

Would it make any difference if you had a blue million VERY SMALL
(nanoscale) balls with the air all or partially evacuated, as opposed
to one larger structure? Does that change the math? I know really
small stuff sometimes behaves radically differently... of course you
would have more weight in the overall walls, with more walls, so maybe
it doesn't work anyway... Thoughts?

-Kelly


From kellycoinguy at gmail.com  Sat Jul 28 04:31:48 2012
From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2012 22:31:48 -0600
Subject: [ExI] types of cars and ethics
In-Reply-To: <f92ef44ab74b26cbc6162dcd49404eb7.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
References: <mailman.1.1343304001.18640.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <1343308242.36543.YahooMailClassic@web114412.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
 <20120726134116.GJ12615@leitl.org>
 <f92ef44ab74b26cbc6162dcd49404eb7.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
Message-ID: <CAPy8RwYuWsY1HK6vQDEnf4bgzEb=TFQMUO0PLDjA6zbMZjw1zA@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 8:31 AM, MB <mbb386 at main.nc.us> wrote:
> Eugen wrote:
>
> I also like snakes. And have moved them as well. (Most
> recently a 5 foot black rat snake.)

I once got out of the car to escort a rattle snake across the road.
>From a safe distance of course, but I kept the sadists from running
him/her over...

I once comforted a dying fawn for a half hour after it got hit by a
car... poor thing. It did eventually die, sadly, but with it's head in
my lap.

Now, I did once intentionally run over a wild turkey... in the road...
I ate it too. It turns out that it was not very yummy... animals
killed by vehicles turn out to be rather inedible. Live and learn. :-)

Meat is murder... yummy yummy murder...

I had a friend who once avoided some small furry thing and went over a
60 foot cliff. He wasn't wearing a seat belt, and was damn lucky IMHO
to have survived uninjured enough to climb back up the cliff. Do not
avoid something in your lane.

-Kelly


From kgh1kgh2 at gmail.com  Sat Jul 28 04:33:33 2012
From: kgh1kgh2 at gmail.com (Kevin G Haskell)
Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2012 00:33:33 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Atten: For any extropy technolibertarians -
Message-ID: <CAEUzo3Kv62xzBjZ-C0VvYo-TKfofLGZF+ucmh-v4PAKZMvoQqQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all,

I love Max an Natasha, but I just want to let you know about the Facebook
group I moderate called "Technolibertarians."
https://www.facebook.com/groups/technolibertarians/

Please feel free to send a request to join.

I wanted to ask Max, Natasha, and anybody in here if they would mind if I
ever copy and pasted questions and answers that were written in here to
post in my group?  I haven't, yet, and could, but would that make anybody
upset?

I was an early Extropian, though not as early as Max and Natasha.  But I
still strongly think that people who support small government and
individual freedom should constantly remain a bug in the ears of those
Transhumanists who receive government money, and who would deign themselves
the new leaders of humanity, but who understand and sympathize with the
people who advocate smaller, more efficient government, and maximum
individual freedoms, remain a force to be heard an appreciated.

Technolibertarian-types need listservs, and all sorts of avenues, if we are
to be heard, and at least, survive.  Just wanted to let everyone know we
exist, and you are invited.

Best,
Kevin George Haskell


-- 
 * Tweet me on Twitter! - @*KevinGHaskell
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From spike66 at att.net  Sat Jul 28 05:16:42 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2012 22:16:42 -0700
Subject: [ExI] types of cars and ethics
In-Reply-To: <CAPy8RwYuWsY1HK6vQDEnf4bgzEb=TFQMUO0PLDjA6zbMZjw1zA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1343304001.18640.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <1343308242.36543.YahooMailClassic@web114412.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
 <20120726134116.GJ12615@leitl.org>
 <f92ef44ab74b26cbc6162dcd49404eb7.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
 <CAPy8RwYuWsY1HK6vQDEnf4bgzEb=TFQMUO0PLDjA6zbMZjw1zA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00e801cd6c80$2d0728b0$87157a10$@att.net>



On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 8:31 AM, MB <mbb386 at main.nc.us> wrote:
> Eugen wrote:
>
> I also like snakes. And have moved them as well. (Most recently a 5 
> foot black rat snake.)

I once got out of the car to escort a rattle snake across the road.
>From a safe distance of course, but I kept the sadists from running him/her
over...-Kelly
_______________________________________________

Ja?  What about all the warm furry critters that rattler will bite and
devour in her lifetime?  And what of all her fangy offspring, and all the
warm furry beasts those offspring will bite and devour?  And what about all
the mosquitoes that would have bitten those warm furries, who will now go
hungry because of your good deed of escorting bite-girl across the road?
And what of those stem cells which would have otherwise been extracted from
the mosquitoes you starved, which would have otherwise been re-injected into
a young female human, who then became impregnated while your stem cell was
swimming around in her veins, which then would have been incorporated into
her reproductive organs, giving the otherwise doomed stem cell a new path
for indefinite survival?

Wonderfully complicated is the field of ethics.  I like the simpler ethics
principles, such as do not use bulls as play toys, and don't buy tickets to
watch others do so.





From spike66 at att.net  Sat Jul 28 05:08:23 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2012 22:08:23 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Aerographite
In-Reply-To: <CAPy8RwZRc00FdC=5E8Vfk2+506uy1ZuSM00dWk_chcW1Qw2HLA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAc1gFjOjUGBmUOvUyihAE2eAZSE3Ve7X9v3PUX0Dq9_8_vabA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHUTwkPSziRjH0oNirM61vqnvS_aEVqy7Vuzh34hEfyLa0ZkBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <50132974.7010305@aleph.se>
 <CAPy8RwZRc00FdC=5E8Vfk2+506uy1ZuSM00dWk_chcW1Qw2HLA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00e701cd6c7f$03d6fd40$0b84f7c0$@att.net>


>... On Behalf Of Kelly Anderson
Subject: Re: [ExI] Aerographite

>...Would it make any difference if you had a blue million VERY SMALL
(nanoscale) balls with the air all or partially evacuated, as opposed to one
larger structure? Does that change the math? I know really small stuff
sometimes behaves radically differently... of course you would have more
weight in the overall walls, with more walls, so maybe it doesn't work
anyway... Thoughts?

-Kelly
_______________________________________________

In general, the mass of a pressure vessels made of any isotropic material
will scale as the cube of the linear dimension, as will its volume.  For
instance, if you have a spherical steel pressure vessel of 100 kg that holds
10 kg of air, then one with twice the diameter will have a mass of 800 kg
and hold 80 kg of air.  I don't think you gain anything by scaling downward.

spike



From anders at aleph.se  Sat Jul 28 12:26:13 2012
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2012 13:26:13 +0100
Subject: [ExI] olympic opening ceremonies
In-Reply-To: <00d301cd6c73$8c5768f0$a5063ad0$@att.net>
References: <00d301cd6c73$8c5768f0$a5063ad0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <5013DA65.5040203@aleph.se>

Seeing Brunel and his team of dancing victorian engineers was great fun.

"Isambard Kingdom Brunel was like the Wolverine of the early 
Victorians.  He was short, ripped, had big sideburns, smoked 50 cigars a 
day, AND KICKED EVERYONE'S ASS!!"
-2D goggles

C.f. http://sydneypadua.com/2dgoggles/talk-to-the-hand/


On 28/07/2012 04:46, spike wrote:
> Brits, may evolution save the queen.  I hope your athletes win a pile 
> of medals, a tall, wide and deep pile of them.

Evolution save the queen? That actually makes sense. Britain seems to be 
based on the meta-principle that you are allowed to add new stuff as 
long as you keep all the old. Layer upon layer, just like how evolution 
builds organisms by exapting previous systems and adding superstructures 
on top of them. Hence weird things like the City of London being a 
10,000 inhabitant town inside the city *called* London, with a special 
representative in parliament  and voting rights for medieval guilds and 
corporations. Or Oxford University, built on institutions that were 
originally monastic lodging-houses and kept together by a library and a 
shared distrust of the townspeople. Or that Magdalen Street is not 
pronounced "Magdalen" but "Maudlin" - but the church on it, St. 
Magdalen, has the normal pronounciation...

Of course the downside is that all the existing weirdness constrains the 
functionality of anything new. I doubt we are ever going to see good 
railway services or plumbing here since they have to follow the patterns 
set by early pioneers. But the cool thing about a seriously retrofitted 
society is that everything is unique and complicated... which is of 
course also a major annoyance.

(As for myself, I think I feel about as British as I feel Swedish... I'm 
probably just an internationalist with a fondness for north-west Europe. )

-- 
Anders Sandberg,
Future of Humanity Institute
Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University

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From nymphomation at gmail.com  Sat Jul 28 13:06:43 2012
From: nymphomation at gmail.com (*Nym*)
Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2012 14:06:43 +0100
Subject: [ExI] olympic opening ceremonies
In-Reply-To: <00d301cd6c73$8c5768f0$a5063ad0$@att.net>
References: <00d301cd6c73$8c5768f0$a5063ad0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CACMJz98bZ3RsMyHGaWe3mqYenx=fsZg8d=AaSyoA1fTz0387oQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 28/07/2012, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> I just finished viewing the Olympic opening ceremonies, so I have a message
> for the British among us, BillK and some others here, I think Max is
> originally from England and others.  Brits, I am very proud of your
> country,
> and I am very proud of you.  That show was excellent, so well done.  That
> history of the industrial revolution theme was BRILLIANT!

I'm afraid I missed most of the show.

I did see two parachutists jump out of a helicopter from my vantage
point on nearby Bow flyover. Unfortunately at that time my hands were
handcuffed behind my back, as I had just been arrested by a
territorial support officer for cycling with too many friends (AKA
Critical Mass..)

I've been charged with breach of Section 12 of the Public Order Act
and also 'being a public nuisance' but since they charged 160 of us
with exactly the same offense I seem to be in good company.

All in all, a very strange (and long) night..

Media:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2180130/Cyclists-protesting-Olympic-restrictions-arrested-scuffles-police.html
http://www.demotix.com/news/1359227/police-arrest-critical-mass-cyclists-near-olympic-stadium
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imoSpvfJz_A

o_O

Heavy splashings,
Thee Nymphomation

'If you cannot afford an executioner, a duty executioner
will be appointed to you free of charge by the court'


From dan_ust at yahoo.com  Sat Jul 28 15:34:02 2012
From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan)
Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2012 08:34:02 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Atten: For any extropy technolibertarians -
In-Reply-To: <CAEUzo3Kv62xzBjZ-C0VvYo-TKfofLGZF+ucmh-v4PAKZMvoQqQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEUzo3Kv62xzBjZ-C0VvYo-TKfofLGZF+ucmh-v4PAKZMvoQqQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1343489642.10559.YahooMailNeo@web126201.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

On Saturday, July 28, 2012 12:33 AM Kevin G Haskell <kgh1kgh2 at gmail.com> wrote:
> I love Max an Natasha, but I just want to let you
> know about the Facebook group I moderate called
> "Technolibertarians."
> https://www.facebook.com/groups/technolibertarians/
>
> Please feel free to send a request to join.

Good show!

> I wanted to ask Max, Natasha, and anybody in here if
> they would mind if I ever copy and pasted questions
> and answers that were written in here to post in my
> group?? I haven't, yet, and could, but would that make
> anybody upset?
>
> I was an early Extropian, though not as early as Max
> and Natasha.? But I still strongly think that people
> who support small government and individual freedom
> should constantly remain a bug in the ears of those
> Transhumanists who receive government money, and who
> would deign themselves the new leaders of humanity,
> but who understand and sympathize with the people who
> advocate smaller, more efficient government, and maximum
> individual freedoms, remain a force to be heard an appreciated.

What of those who believe any government is a danger to individual freedom and that libertarianism as such is only consistent with anarchism?

> Technolibertarian-types need listservs, and all sorts
> of avenues, if we are to be heard, and at least,
> survive.? Just wanted to let everyone know we exist,
> and you are invited.

I think there are, aside from me, several libertarians who participate here, though the list is not really devoted to political philosophy. (Which might be a good thing, since discussions of that tend to devolve into flame wars and there's plenty of material to read online for those really interested in the subject. Plus, there are other groups devoted to political philosophy, including from a libertarian perspective.)

Regards,

Dan
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From dan_ust at yahoo.com  Sat Jul 28 15:43:58 2012
From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan)
Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2012 08:43:58 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] types of cars and ethics
In-Reply-To: <e74eb2d7809a2dd83bda3f08fc7429f5.squirrel@main.nc.us>
References: <mailman.1.1343304001.18640.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <1343308242.36543.YahooMailClassic@web114412.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
 <20120726134116.GJ12615@leitl.org>
 <f92ef44ab74b26cbc6162dcd49404eb7.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
 <1343327395.55378.YahooMailNeo@web126201.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <fc3bdbd2e71f31b468db0de8e4f6e9d3.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
 <1343415902.91017.YahooMailNeo@web126201.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <e74eb2d7809a2dd83bda3f08fc7429f5.squirrel@main.nc.us>
Message-ID: <1343490238.48870.YahooMailNeo@web126204.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

On Friday, July 27, 2012 4:10 PM MB <mbb386 at main.nc.us> wrote:
> Dan wrote:
>> I'd keep an eye on the sadist. He might escalate and, if
>> and when he does, there's a chance to nip this in the
>> bud.
>
> You are right - people like that need watching.
>
> This was long ago and far away. I don't know the end of
> the story.

It might that times have changed. I think, nowadays, a person caught doing any of that might be confronted directly -- if her or his colleagues are not also sadists.

> Parents need to *notice* - if they see the kid doing
> hurty stuff, act quickly. As you say "Nip it in the bud".
> Preferably when they're young.

Most def.

> That said, I was a pretty nasty kid myself. And grew up
> to be a bit of a bleeding heart. ???

It might be learning or other changes took place. It might be a numbers game. Maybe most kids who do such things turn out okay in the long run, but a few have something like, say, the so called "warrior gene" -- and those are the ones who need to be watched.

> ps. I'm glad you're still on this list - a while back I
> thought you might be falling away, funding problems.? I
> liked your website and stuff.

My participation here waxes and wanes. I don't always feel I have something to add* and sometimes, when traffic is really high, I tune out because it's hard to follow and keep up with my other projects.

Thanks for your concern.

Regards,

Dan

* I'm sure one or more here believe I never have anything to add. :)

"Stay thirsty, my friends."
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From pharos at gmail.com  Sat Jul 28 16:05:05 2012
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2012 17:05:05 +0100
Subject: [ExI] olympic opening ceremonies
In-Reply-To: <CACMJz98bZ3RsMyHGaWe3mqYenx=fsZg8d=AaSyoA1fTz0387oQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <00d301cd6c73$8c5768f0$a5063ad0$@att.net>
 <CACMJz98bZ3RsMyHGaWe3mqYenx=fsZg8d=AaSyoA1fTz0387oQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armgka9mik6-WLsffvJ-bCNoOZbkMvH6aquR0jxxcAfnEQA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Jul 28, 2012 at 2:06 PM, *Nym* wrote:
> I'm afraid I missed most of the show.
>
> I did see two parachutists jump out of a helicopter from my vantage
> point on nearby Bow flyover. Unfortunately at that time my hands were
> handcuffed behind my back, as I had just been arrested by a
> territorial support officer for cycling with too many friends (AKA
> Critical Mass..)
>
>

Somewhat similarly I also missed the show.

My hands were also handcuffed behind my back.
But that was because my girlfriend has been studying '50 Shades of
Grey' and I don't think she's quite got the hang of it yet.


BillK


From anders at aleph.se  Sat Jul 28 16:48:23 2012
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2012 17:48:23 +0100
Subject: [ExI] olympic opening ceremonies
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armgka9mik6-WLsffvJ-bCNoOZbkMvH6aquR0jxxcAfnEQA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <00d301cd6c73$8c5768f0$a5063ad0$@att.net>
 <CACMJz98bZ3RsMyHGaWe3mqYenx=fsZg8d=AaSyoA1fTz0387oQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armgka9mik6-WLsffvJ-bCNoOZbkMvH6aquR0jxxcAfnEQA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <501417D7.80000@aleph.se>

On 28/07/2012 17:05, BillK wrote:
> My hands were also handcuffed behind my back.

Seems like I have missed the trend. I better get handcuffed too, it is 
simply the done thing these days!


As for the paganism of the opening ceremonies, I think that is 
appropriate. The Olympic games were originally religious festivities, 
and were revived as a kind of festivities for abstractions like Peace 
and Excellence. Note the magical fire ceremonies. And if you squint 
hard, you can see the worship of mortals pushing themselves towards 
demigodhood. One reason so many people dislike doping is that the 
athletes are supposed to represent the best there is of humanity, and 
breaking rules in the wrong way is seen as tarnishing it. Which of 
course leaves plenty of questions about cases like Pistorius - a new 
path to godhood?

-- 
Anders Sandberg,
Future of Humanity Institute
Oxford Martin School
Faculty of Philosophy
Oxford University



From spike66 at att.net  Sat Jul 28 17:02:25 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2012 10:02:25 -0700
Subject: [ExI] olympic opening ceremonies
In-Reply-To: <501417D7.80000@aleph.se>
References: <00d301cd6c73$8c5768f0$a5063ad0$@att.net>
 <CACMJz98bZ3RsMyHGaWe3mqYenx=fsZg8d=AaSyoA1fTz0387oQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armgka9mik6-WLsffvJ-bCNoOZbkMvH6aquR0jxxcAfnEQA@mail.gmail.com>
 <501417D7.80000@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <013901cd6ce2$c415bca0$4c4135e0$@att.net>



>... On Behalf Of Anders Sandberg
Subject: Re: [ExI] olympic opening ceremonies

On 28/07/2012 17:05, BillK wrote:
>>... My hands were also handcuffed behind my back.

>...Seems like I have missed the trend. I better get handcuffed too, it is
simply the done thing these days!

>...As for the paganism of the opening ceremonies, I think that is 
appropriate. The Olympic games were originally religious festivities, 
and were revived as a kind of festivities for abstractions like Peace 
and Excellence... --  Anders Sandberg,



Since they are interested in the whole Olympics history thing, I am hoping
they bring back the original notion of having the athletes compete nude.  Oh
my, I would be sooo very there for the beach volleyball competition.
Actually, all those sports would be a lot more fun to watch.  Women's ping
pong would be cool, all the swimming competitors look like something carved
of the purest marble, oh my.

Now think of it this way: the stuffy rules committee and capitalist
advertisement committees would likely shy away from the whole idea, so what
we need are good computer simulations of top Olympic athletes competing
nude.  We could do photoshop or something, and use some of our digital image
magic to make it happen, ja?  It could even be used in those competitions
where nudity isn't really practical, like the equestrians, swordswomanship,
the downhill skiing etc.  Oh, there are buttloads of money to be made here.

spike




From anders at aleph.se  Sat Jul 28 18:46:23 2012
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2012 19:46:23 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Next year in 44 Nysa?
Message-ID: <5014337F.2060307@aleph.se>

I am currently enjoying reading the game module "Rimward" for the 
roleplaying game Eclipse Phase. For those who haven't encountered the 
game, it is an excellent hard sf game of "transhuman conspiracy and 
horror" set ten years after the singularity went badly wrong. It has a 
very rich setting and actually does try to allow the players to explore 
trans- and posthuman modes of existence. Rimward is the source book 
about the outer part of the solar system. One of the major factions 
is... the Extropians.

It is pretty fun to see how a game actually gets things mostly right, 
and then takes our ideas out for a spin (after all, it is a game). A quote:

> THE FIRST TRANSHUMANISTS
>
> While author FM-2030 may have been the first to really identify the 
> concepts behind transhumanism, it was Dr. Max More who defined the 
> term and created an ongoing dialogue with others through his Extropy 
> Institute, mailing list, magazine, and conferences. Dr. More defined 
> ?extropy? as the opposite of entropy, or ?the extent of a living or 
> organizational system?s intelligence, functional order, vitality, 
> energy, life, experience, and capacity and drive for improvement and 
> growth.? Early extropians developed a futuristic outlook based on the 
> proactionary principle, emphasized rational thinking and optimism, and 
> were acutely interested in the possibilities of life extension, AI, 
> nanotechnology, cryonics, space exploration, robotics, uploading, and 
> more. The vast majority of these early transhumanists held a 
> libertarian or anarcho-capitalist political viewpoint, though the 
> transhumanist movement soon expanded and developed a more 
> technoprogressive agenda.
>
> Among the hypercapitalist CEOs and management who pushed our species? 
> expansion into space were a number of self-described libertarian 
> transhumanists. A dedicated group of these idealists, including 
> prominent libertarian billionaires Hayek Taggart and Petra Thiel, 
> united forces and established a new corporation, Extropy Now, with the 
> explicit intent of establishing the first independent outpost in the 
> solar system. Diverting many of their personal assets, they staked a 
> homesteading claim on the asteroid 44 Nysa, previously mined and 
> recently abandoned by Triple Peaks Prospecting, one of Taggart?s many 
> Belt resource exploitation ventures. Naming it Extropia, in honor of 
> those early thinkers and activists, they established a society that 
> operated entirely on a free market basis with interactions mediated by 
> social contracts.
>
> Over time, numerous other Extropian outposts were founded. Extropia 
> remains the largest, and to this day serves as an ideological neutral 
> zone between the inner and outer system factions.

It then goes on explaining how an anarcho-capitalist society functions; 
not too different from David Friedman's sketch in "The Machinery of 
Freedom", but with more AI support.

> Nomic is a freelance judiciary AGI, one of many making their home on 
> Extropia. She is arguably one of the most well-known and respected 
> private courts; her reputation remains extraordinarily high despite 
> some controversy and her nature as an AGI.

There are plenty of other kinds of transhumanists in the setting, 
ranging from anarchist technoprogressives (who gets perhaps the biggest 
writup in this module, simply because most of us have a hard time 
understanding how the heck anarchism is supposed to work) to the 
somewhat Nietzschean ultimates, not to mention the *really* divergent 
groups like exhumans. But in many ways transhumanism is about as 
mainstream as liberalism today - it has been around for generations, and 
nobody but a Jovian would bat an eyelid at bring uploaded into a robot 
octopus body (still, most cool people stand out from the proles by 
insisting on wearing hard-to-maintain and expensive biological bodies).

I love roleplaying games that explain ideological differences by saying 
that one faction is Keynesian and another is Hayekian. Things have 
certainly come a long way since tunnels and trolls.

-- 
Anders Sandberg,
Future of Humanity Institute
Oxford Martin School
Faculty of Philosophy
Oxford University



From jrd1415 at gmail.com  Sun Jul 29 00:47:08 2012
From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis)
Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2012 17:47:08 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The seat of meta-consciousness in the brain
Message-ID: <CAHUTwkNY60g6ojw9kQ_adYuaeKpE53Z+s54sQoPwsMMXqN8jXQ@mail.gmail.com>

Studies of lucid dreamers visualize which centers of the brain become
active when we become aware of ourselves

http://www.mpg.de/5925490/meta-consciousness-brain


Best, Jeff Davis


From bbenzai at yahoo.com  Sun Jul 29 13:16:00 2012
From: bbenzai at yahoo.com (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2012 06:16:00 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] olympic opening ceremonies
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1343563202.22141.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <1343567760.56116.YahooMailClassic@web114406.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

"spike" <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
 
> Since they are interested in the whole Olympics history
> thing, I am hoping
> they bring back the original notion of having the athletes
> compete nude.? Oh
> my, I would be sooo very there for the beach volleyball
> competition.
> Actually, all those sports would be a lot more fun to
> watch.? Women's ping
> pong would be cool, all the swimming competitors look like
> something carved
> of the purest marble, oh my.
> 
> Now think of it this way: the stuffy rules committee and
> capitalist
> advertisement committees would likely shy away from the
> whole idea, so what
> we need are good computer simulations of top Olympic
> athletes competing
> nude.? We could do photoshop or something, and use some
> of our digital image
> magic to make it happen, ja?? It could even be used in
> those competitions
> where nudity isn't really practical, like the equestrians,
> swordswomanship,
> the downhill skiing etc.? Oh, there are buttloads of
> money to be made here.


I like your thinking Spike, but somehow doubt that this happening will ever coincide with the making of buttloads of money (cubic or otherwise), and may be more likely to coincide with a jail sentence, or at least a hefty fine:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/apr/13/olympics-2012-branding-police-sponsors

http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20091023/0449066652.shtml

http://www.canada.com/montrealgazette/news/story.html?id=657daec0-134e-4edf-90c3-ac57565c478b

http://www.acluutah.org/olympictrademark.htm

Ben Zaiboc



From bbenzai at yahoo.com  Sun Jul 29 13:22:13 2012
From: bbenzai at yahoo.com (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2012 06:22:13 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] olympic opening ceremonies
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1343563202.22141.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <1343568133.9362.YahooMailClassic@web114420.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

Anders Sandberg <anders at aleph.se> wrote:

> (As for myself, I think I feel about as British as I feel
> Swedish... I'm 
> probably just an internationalist with a fondness for
> north-west Europe. )


Anders, you give yourself away.  If you really felt British, you'd be saying "...with a fondness for north-west Europe and Britain."  :>>

Ben Zaiboc



From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Sun Jul 29 15:51:26 2012
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2012 08:51:26 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Written for another list
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB7-tNN-SJb2-XCVU3qYihvvFKH1in2kDWO_z0==xT2c4Q@mail.gmail.com>

But I though it might interest a few people here.

As most of you know, I have worked for a number of years on solutions
to the carbon and energy problems.  Less than six months ago, it
occurred to me that there was a solution, one offering power on the
scale of tens of TW and cost down into the 1-2 cents per kWh.

It's based on on old idea, power satellites, and a new "Black Swan"
development from electronics, high efficiency solid state lasers.

If we had one power satellite equipped with propulsion lasers, it
would lower the cost of raising parts to GEO for more satellites to
under $100/kg.  At that price, the cost of power from space falls to
under 2 cents per kWh.  That would allow making synthetic liquid
transportation fuels for $1-2 per gallon.

The problem is building the first power satellite without cheap laser
propulsion.  However, it is so valuable in the role of laser
propulsion that an economic model shows it would be paid off in a few
years from the profits of selling relatively low cost power plants
even if we have to build the first one with relatively conventional
rockets.

The energy payback from power satellites is short, two months, and the
profit is so high that an initial 100 GW/year business could triple in
capacity every year with only ten percent of production invested in
more laser capacity.

The model might not be correct, but if it is, then it looks like
humanity could painlessly quit using fossil fuels in no more than two
decades.  If we still have warming problems, either CO2 could be
removed from the air and stored as synthetic oil back in the ground or
sunshades at L2 can be used to block as much sunlight as desired.

Amazing what grown up versions of the tiny laser diodes in CD players can do.

Keith


From atymes at gmail.com  Sun Jul 29 20:37:35 2012
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2012 13:37:35 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Written for another list
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB7-tNN-SJb2-XCVU3qYihvvFKH1in2kDWO_z0==xT2c4Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB7-tNN-SJb2-XCVU3qYihvvFKH1in2kDWO_z0==xT2c4Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNTamNXm7MBkWEy0uKqadu9AmMm99orSdFNwx6d+9fSL9w@mail.gmail.com>

Demonstrate it at lower cost with existing technology
first, even if you have to accept a much, much slower
rate of payback at first.

If what you say is true, then it should be possible to
achieve profitability in several years with chemical
propulsion alone, even assuming the amount you're
squirreling away for R&D on the better-cheaper laser
propulsion gets wasted.

If it is not, then the rest of your model is probably bogus.

That is what most investors will tell you.

On Sun, Jul 29, 2012 at 8:51 AM, Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> wrote:
> But I though it might interest a few people here.
>
> As most of you know, I have worked for a number of years on solutions
> to the carbon and energy problems.  Less than six months ago, it
> occurred to me that there was a solution, one offering power on the
> scale of tens of TW and cost down into the 1-2 cents per kWh.
>
> It's based on on old idea, power satellites, and a new "Black Swan"
> development from electronics, high efficiency solid state lasers.
>
> If we had one power satellite equipped with propulsion lasers, it
> would lower the cost of raising parts to GEO for more satellites to
> under $100/kg.  At that price, the cost of power from space falls to
> under 2 cents per kWh.  That would allow making synthetic liquid
> transportation fuels for $1-2 per gallon.
>
> The problem is building the first power satellite without cheap laser
> propulsion.  However, it is so valuable in the role of laser
> propulsion that an economic model shows it would be paid off in a few
> years from the profits of selling relatively low cost power plants
> even if we have to build the first one with relatively conventional
> rockets.
>
> The energy payback from power satellites is short, two months, and the
> profit is so high that an initial 100 GW/year business could triple in
> capacity every year with only ten percent of production invested in
> more laser capacity.
>
> The model might not be correct, but if it is, then it looks like
> humanity could painlessly quit using fossil fuels in no more than two
> decades.  If we still have warming problems, either CO2 could be
> removed from the air and stored as synthetic oil back in the ground or
> sunshades at L2 can be used to block as much sunlight as desired.
>
> Amazing what grown up versions of the tiny laser diodes in CD players can do.
>
> Keith
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From jonkc at bellsouth.net  Mon Jul 30 04:41:18 2012
From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (john clark)
Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2012 21:41:18 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Written for another list
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNTamNXm7MBkWEy0uKqadu9AmMm99orSdFNwx6d+9fSL9w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1343623278.77411.YahooMailClassic@web181206.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

On Sun, Jul 29, 2012? Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> wrote:

>? The energy payback from power satellites is short, two months

I think that's a pretty useless figure because the problem is not the high cost of rocket fuel. In fact even if the launch cost to geosynchronous orbit were zero I'm not at all sure power satellites would be economically viable.? I think liquid fluoride thorium reactors are a much better bet and we already have the technology or nearly so, we've had most of it since the 1960's, and that is pretty amazing considering the tiny amount of money spent developing the concept.? About half a century ago we made a blunder and turned to solid fuel uranium reactors and not to liquid fuel thorium reactors and we've been paying a huge price for that mistake ever since.

? John K Clark?? 



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From cetico.iconoclasta at gmail.com  Mon Jul 30 13:51:48 2012
From: cetico.iconoclasta at gmail.com (Henrique Moraes Machado)
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2012 10:51:48 -0300
Subject: [ExI] RES:  Written for another list
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB7-tNN-SJb2-XCVU3qYihvvFKH1in2kDWO_z0==xT2c4Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB7-tNN-SJb2-XCVU3qYihvvFKH1in2kDWO_z0==xT2c4Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00fc01cd6e5a$78e862e0$6ab928a0$@gmail.com>

KH> 
> As most of you know, I have worked for a number of years on solutions to
the carbon
> and energy problems.  Less than six months ago, it occurred to me that
there was a
> solution, one offering power on the scale of tens of TW and cost down into
the 1-2
> cents per kWh.
> It's based on on old idea, power satellites, and a new "Black Swan"
> development from electronics, high efficiency solid state lasers.
> If we had one power satellite equipped with propulsion lasers, it would
lower the cost
> of raising parts to GEO for more satellites to under $100/kg.  At that
price, the cost of
> power from space falls to under 2 cents per kWh.  That would allow making
synthetic
> liquid transportation fuels for $1-2 per gallon.
> The problem is building the first power satellite without cheap laser
propulsion.
> However, it is so valuable in the role of laser propulsion that an
economic model shows
> it would be paid off in a few years from the profits of selling relatively
low cost power
> plants even if we have to build the first one with relatively conventional
rockets.

Have you tried kickstarter? Kidding (or am I?). I'd really love to see that
happen in my life time.
And what about that maglev launcher system that people have been talking
recently. Better or worse (if it ever get built)?




From eugen at leitl.org  Mon Jul 30 14:24:03 2012
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2012 16:24:03 +0200
Subject: [ExI] RES:  Written for another list
In-Reply-To: <00fc01cd6e5a$78e862e0$6ab928a0$@gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB7-tNN-SJb2-XCVU3qYihvvFKH1in2kDWO_z0==xT2c4Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <00fc01cd6e5a$78e862e0$6ab928a0$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120730142403.GI12615@leitl.org>

On Mon, Jul 30, 2012 at 10:51:48AM -0300, Henrique Moraes Machado wrote:

> Have you tried kickstarter? Kidding (or am I?). I'd really love to see that
> happen in my life time.

Kickstarter hasn't yet broken into high GUSD to TUSD fundraising regime yet.

> And what about that maglev launcher system that people have been talking
> recently. Better or worse (if it ever get built)?


From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Mon Jul 30 14:36:42 2012
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2012 07:36:42 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Written for another list
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB7-tNN-SJb2-XCVU3qYihvvFKH1in2kDWO_z0==xT2c4Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB7-tNN-SJb2-XCVU3qYihvvFKH1in2kDWO_z0==xT2c4Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB7zu4QwOrbawVO60avEepRiX3CE44K1R3CkK-dBhHUVSg@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jul 30, 2012 at 5:00 AM,  Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:

> Demonstrate it at lower cost with existing technology
> first, even if you have to accept a much, much slower
> rate of payback at first.

There might be a way to do this, but I don't know how.  The people who
have really studied this, for example,

http://www.sspi.gatech.edu/aiaa-2009-0462_ssp_alternatives_potter.pdf

get numbers around a dollar a kWh.  That's acceptable for powering
lasers, but I can't see much of a market for multiple GW at 20 times
the cost of electricity from nuclear plants.

> If what you say is true, then it should be possible to
> achieve profitability in several years with chemical
> propulsion alone, even assuming the amount you're
> squirreling away for R&D on the better-cheaper laser
> propulsion gets wasted.

I can send you the spreadsheet for the financial model if you want to
try making money on conventional propulsion.

> If it is not, then the rest of your model is probably bogus.

Perhaps.  I freely admit the model may have errors in assumptions or
formula.  Though saying that without looking at the model seems a bit
over the top.

> That is what most investors will tell you.

I have no  present intention of showing this project to investors.
For one thing, I am assured that there is only one, the Chinese
government.  That is already underway.

I am mainly interested in making a case that there *is* a way out of
the energy/carbon problems without an 80% die off.

> From: john clark <jonkc at bellsouth.net>
>
> On Sun, Jul 29, 2012? Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>? The energy payback from power satellites is short, two months
>
> I think that's a pretty useless figure

Wind and solar runs about two years.

> because the problem is not the high cost of rocket fuel.

It never has been.  The cost of hydrogen is a few dollars per kg to
GEO in this model.

> In fact even if the launch cost to geosynchronous orbit were zero I'm not at all sure power satellites would be economically viable.?

The cost of power at current $10,000/kg is dominated by the lift cost
of ~50,000/kW.  Cost of power at that transport rate is ~$2/kWh.

For zero lift cost, the cost would be around 1.4 cents per kWh.  The
derivation of this is in the paper.

> I think liquid fluoride thorium reactors are a much better bet and we already have the technology or nearly so, we've had most of it since the 1960's, and that is pretty amazing considering the tiny amount of money spent developing the concept.? About half a century ago we made a blunder and turned to solid fuel uranium reactors and not to liquid fuel thorium reactors and we've been paying a huge price for that mistake ever since.

First, will thorium scale to 10s of TW?  If it will, i.e., there is
enough, how much capital investment per kW?  Make a convincing case
it's possible and less expensive than power sats and I will work on
that instead.

I am concerned with solving the problem and am not that particular as
to how.  Google oil drum stratosolar.

Keith

Keith



From atymes at gmail.com  Mon Jul 30 16:45:32 2012
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2012 09:45:32 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Written for another list
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB7zu4QwOrbawVO60avEepRiX3CE44K1R3CkK-dBhHUVSg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB7-tNN-SJb2-XCVU3qYihvvFKH1in2kDWO_z0==xT2c4Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB7zu4QwOrbawVO60avEepRiX3CE44K1R3CkK-dBhHUVSg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNTRwwS2UUMJNFQqTxwqAyvXOVGf5ZtERWA09hSXOgMMZA@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jul 30, 2012 at 7:36 AM, Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> wrote:
> That's acceptable for powering
> lasers, but I can't see much of a market for multiple GW at 20 times
> the cost of electricity from nuclear plants.

Nope.  If the cost of electricity is higher than what you get
off the grid, then it's not acceptable for powering lasers,
since you could just get it off the grid instead.

> I can send you the spreadsheet for the financial model if you want to
> try making money on conventional propulsion.

I might be interested in taking a look *if* your spreadsheet
includes the costs of the intermediate conventional
propulsion stage.  If it does not, then you need to add that
before it is a complete, realistic model.

(I could assume nanosanta for a nanotech project, and
handwave the costs of developing nanosanta.  That wouldn't
be a current real world business model either.)

> Perhaps.  I freely admit the model may have errors in assumptions or
> formula.  Though saying that without looking at the model seems a bit
> over the top.

No, it's basic business theory.  If you can make a profit with
practice X after it's developed, and a lesser profit with
practice Y that does not take significant development, then
you can compare the efficiency of developing X and then
making more money over time versus just using Y.

> I have no  present intention of showing this project to investors.
> For one thing, I am assured that there is only one, the Chinese
> government.  That is already underway.

Nope.  If you really did have a case, there are private investors
in the US.  There are, in fact, already startups actively
pursuing this - maybe you should apply for a job so you can
actually help make this future?

http://www.spaceenergy.com/
http://www.solarenspace.com/ (though information about their
post-2009 status is hard to find)

> I am mainly interested in making a case that there *is* a way out of
> the energy/carbon problems without an 80% die off.

The theoretical case has long been made.  The challenge now
is the litmus test: actually doing it.

> The cost of power at current $10,000/kg is dominated by the lift cost
> of ~50,000/kW.  Cost of power at that transport rate is ~$2/kWh.
>
> For zero lift cost, the cost would be around 1.4 cents per kWh.  The
> derivation of this is in the paper.

It sounds like you have bigger concerns than the lift cost, if
that is not a majority of the cost.


From dan_ust at yahoo.com  Mon Jul 30 17:19:04 2012
From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan)
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2012 10:19:04 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Written for another list
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNTamNXm7MBkWEy0uKqadu9AmMm99orSdFNwx6d+9fSL9w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB7-tNN-SJb2-XCVU3qYihvvFKH1in2kDWO_z0==xT2c4Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNTamNXm7MBkWEy0uKqadu9AmMm99orSdFNwx6d+9fSL9w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1343668744.74312.YahooMailNeo@web126205.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

On Sunday, July 29, 2012 4:37 PM Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com
> Demonstrate it at lower cost with existing technology
> first, even if you have to accept a much, much slower
> rate of payback at first.

Or even no payback. It could just be a proof of concept that doesn't even break even, but merely shows it can be done at such and such a price and gives good clues to what it would be like to operate the thing and what might happen at larger scales. Also, in this case, you're not blowing all your resources on a gigantic project that might fail, but a very small one where a failure is far less costly and you can more easily recover from it to try again.

> If what you say is true, then it should be possible to
> achieve profitability in several years with chemical
> propulsion alone, even assuming the amount you're
> squirreling away for R&D on the better-cheaper laser
> propulsion gets wasted.

Agreed. It would also using off the shelf launch technology -- reducing risk in one area. And costs might come down if one shops around for launchers rather than making specialized ones integral to the project.

> If it is not, then the rest of your model is probably bogus.
>
> That is what most investors will tell you.

I wouldn't say "bogus," but it's certainly how things would play out.

Regards,

Dan
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From sparge at gmail.com  Mon Jul 30 17:04:53 2012
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2012 13:04:53 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Pistorius
In-Reply-To: <50134DBC.4060204@aleph.se>
References: <50134DBC.4060204@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2fhB2=f13q0zSK_ujK-=xjfeCjCwZGvFwY7zPp594eyuA@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jul 27, 2012 at 10:26 PM, Anders Sandberg <anders at aleph.se> wrote:

> I have been asked to write a piece on Oscar Pistorius participation in the
> olympics (and not the paralympics). Not being very sports interested
> myself, I would be curious to hear what more sports interested members of
> the list (if any) make of the whole thing.
>
> Normalization of enhancement, the olympics as a biomedical freak show,
> personality cult, or recognition of enormous tenacity?
>

Maybe too late, but here goes anyway...

I think Oscar Pistorius is remarkable and I support his efforts to compete
in the Olympics, but I can't get over the nagging feeling that his
artificial legs give him some kind of advantage over those with natural
legs. We have a situation analogous to a person with eyeglasses entering an
eyesight competition with documentation asserting that his glasses provide
no advantage.

While it would seem unjust to deny him the right to compete in the
Olympics, it would also be unjust to allow him to compete if he has an
advantage over the other competitors beyond superior natural ability/desire.

-Dave
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From moulton at moulton.com  Mon Jul 30 21:30:51 2012
From: moulton at moulton.com (F. C. Moulton)
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2012 14:30:51 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Atten: For any extropy technolibertarians -
In-Reply-To: <1343489642.10559.YahooMailNeo@web126201.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <CAEUzo3Kv62xzBjZ-C0VvYo-TKfofLGZF+ucmh-v4PAKZMvoQqQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <1343489642.10559.YahooMailNeo@web126201.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5016FD0B.8040900@moulton.com>

On 07/28/2012 08:34 AM, Dan wrote:
> On Saturday, July 28, 2012 12:33 AM Kevin G Haskell <kgh1kgh2 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>> I love Max an Natasha, but I just want to let you
>> know about the Facebook group I moderate called
>> "Technolibertarians."
>> https://www.facebook.com/groups/technolibertarians/
>>
>> Please feel free to send a request to join.
> 
> Good show!

Sounds interesting.

>> I wanted to ask Max, Natasha, and anybody in here if
>> they would mind if I ever copy and pasted questions
>> and answers that were written in here to post in my
>> group?  I haven't, yet, and could, but would that make
>> anybody upset?

I strongly suggest DO NOT DO IT unless you get very specific individual
permission.  Without permission there are several reasons to avoid it
but I will just list one big reason which should be sufficient.  The
reason not to do it without specific individual permission is that
people often frame answers assuming the context of prior discussions and
also prior meta-level discussions on the list.  There is no way to
maintain this context using a copy and paste for particular bits of a
thread. Loosing this direct context and meta-level context might change
how a specific comment is intended.

Well I will add one more which is that people join the list, leave, then
sometimes come back so just posting a general request for permission to
the list might or might not cover the people you want to quote.

> What of those who believe any government is a danger to individual
> freedom and that libertarianism as such is only consistent with anarchism?
> 

Dan asks a very good question.  I am not interested in debating the
issue of anarchism versus limited government here since this is not the
proper forum.  I just want to emphasis that the question Dan raises is
very important for the project you are undertaking.

Fred

>


From max at maxmore.com  Mon Jul 30 23:46:50 2012
From: max at maxmore.com (Max More)
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2012 16:46:50 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Atten: For any extropy technolibertarians -
In-Reply-To: <CAEUzo3Kv62xzBjZ-C0VvYo-TKfofLGZF+ucmh-v4PAKZMvoQqQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEUzo3Kv62xzBjZ-C0VvYo-TKfofLGZF+ucmh-v4PAKZMvoQqQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJX-7wVrojrqu6sZZE-4eF8h_QeSs1o_NZAfjquXcdnk=ysCMg@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jul 27, 2012 at 9:33 PM, Kevin G Haskell <kgh1kgh2 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I love Max an Natasha, but I just want to let you know about the Facebook
> group I moderate called "Technolibertarians."
> https://www.facebook.com/groups/technolibertarians/
>
>
I'm not sure I understand the "but" here.


> Please feel free to send a request to join.
>
> I wanted to ask Max, Natasha, and anybody in here if they would mind if I
> ever copy and pasted questions and answers that were written in here to
> post in my group?  I haven't, yet, and could, but would that make anybody
> upset?
>

For the reasons Fred explained, I would object to coping and pasting
without explicit permission for individual pieces of writing.

--Max


-- 
Max More, PhD
Strategic Philosopher
Co-editor, *The Transhumanist Reader*
President & CEO, Alcor Life Extension Foundation
7895 E. Acoma Dr # 110
Scottsdale, AZ 85260
480/905-1906 ext 113
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From natasha at natasha.cc  Tue Jul 31 00:51:15 2012
From: natasha at natasha.cc (natasha at natasha.cc)
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2012 20:51:15 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Atten: For any extropy technolibertarians -
In-Reply-To: <CAJX-7wVrojrqu6sZZE-4eF8h_QeSs1o_NZAfjquXcdnk=ysCMg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEUzo3Kv62xzBjZ-C0VvYo-TKfofLGZF+ucmh-v4PAKZMvoQqQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJX-7wVrojrqu6sZZE-4eF8h_QeSs1o_NZAfjquXcdnk=ysCMg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120730205115.m4szwtb94w0gkk8w@webmail.natasha.cc>

Quoting Max More <max at maxmore.com>:

> On Fri, Jul 27, 2012 at 9:33 PM, Kevin G Haskell <kgh1kgh2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I love Max an Natasha, but I just want to let you know about the Facebook
>> group I moderate called "Technolibertarians."
>> https://www.facebook.com/groups/technolibertarians/
>>
>>
> I'm not sure I understand the "but" here.

Probably because I am not a libertarian and he assumes we are  
connected at the hip. Frankly, I really don't like being pigeonholed  
one way or another.  I mean -- who cares if a person is a  
technolibertarian or a technoprogressive or technononpartisian or  
technotranspolitical?!  As long as we all are for longer, healthy life  
and support the technologies that will most likely bring this about,  
why exclude each other?

Natasha





From nanite1018 at gmail.com  Tue Jul 31 01:37:56 2012
From: nanite1018 at gmail.com (Joshua Job)
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2012 21:37:56 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Atten: For any extropy technolibertarians -
In-Reply-To: <20120730205115.m4szwtb94w0gkk8w@webmail.natasha.cc>
References: <CAEUzo3Kv62xzBjZ-C0VvYo-TKfofLGZF+ucmh-v4PAKZMvoQqQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJX-7wVrojrqu6sZZE-4eF8h_QeSs1o_NZAfjquXcdnk=ysCMg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120730205115.m4szwtb94w0gkk8w@webmail.natasha.cc>
Message-ID: <CAEtn_z0b51QCtiytKKFFCu1nvgq==NUmrQHAJoWDMg6JAE8sDw@mail.gmail.com>

I don't post very often (hoping to get more active), but I think there is a
place for just a teensy bit of sectarianism in the broader transhumanist
movement. For example, some might think that government regulations will
slow down progress unjustifiably, while others may view it as the best way
to combat existential risks from technologies like AGI and molecular
nanotechnology. The same goes for social programs--- you could think
they'll make things worse, or better.

Obviously your views on such things will effect how you go about promoting
transhumanist ideas, and what programs, organizations, and initiatives one
will support. Having a place to discuss such topics with others of like
mind is beneficial for both the movement as well as for the psychology of
the individuals involved. And since the ExI list isn't necessarily the best
place for such discussions, it makes sense to create a group especially for
libertarian transhumanists (and democratic transhumanists,
Singularitarians, etc.).
On Jul 30, 2012 9:18 PM, <natasha at natasha.cc> wrote:

> Quoting Max More <max at maxmore.com>:
>
>  On Fri, Jul 27, 2012 at 9:33 PM, Kevin G Haskell <kgh1kgh2 at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>  Hi all,
>>>
>>> I love Max an Natasha, but I just want to let you know about the Facebook
>>> group I moderate called "Technolibertarians."
>>> https://www.facebook.com/**groups/technolibertarians/<https://www.facebook.com/groups/technolibertarians/>
>>>
>>>
>>>  I'm not sure I understand the "but" here.
>>
>
> Probably because I am not a libertarian and he assumes we are connected at
> the hip. Frankly, I really don't like being pigeonholed one way or another.
>  I mean -- who cares if a person is a technolibertarian or a
> technoprogressive or technononpartisian or technotranspolitical?!  As long
> as we all are for longer, healthy life and support the technologies that
> will most likely bring this about, why exclude each other?
>
> Natasha
>
>
>
> ______________________________**_________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/**mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-**chat<http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat>
>
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From pjmanney at gmail.com  Tue Jul 31 01:52:42 2012
From: pjmanney at gmail.com (PJ Manney)
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2012 18:52:42 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Atten: For any extropy technolibertarians -
In-Reply-To: <20120730205115.m4szwtb94w0gkk8w@webmail.natasha.cc>
References: <CAEUzo3Kv62xzBjZ-C0VvYo-TKfofLGZF+ucmh-v4PAKZMvoQqQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJX-7wVrojrqu6sZZE-4eF8h_QeSs1o_NZAfjquXcdnk=ysCMg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120730205115.m4szwtb94w0gkk8w@webmail.natasha.cc>
Message-ID: <CAJrtBE0xdcN4Y+7Yjg8JbQMGuXMjwEi9EZr=u9tspa1qXXct2Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jul 30, 2012 at 5:51 PM, <natasha at natasha.cc> wrote:
> Probably because I am not a libertarian and he assumes we are connected at
> the hip. Frankly, I really don't like being pigeonholed one way or another.
> I mean -- who cares if a person is a technolibertarian or a
> technoprogressive or technononpartisian or technotranspolitical?!  As long
> as we all are for longer, healthy life and support the technologies that
> will most likely bring this about, why exclude each other?

I'm with Natasha.  I'm not terribly one thing or another and have
always resisted labels, yet I'm on this list.  And I do not want my
comments taken out of context.

I look at the Extropy list like an endless dinner party of
interesting, intelligent people with ideas outside the mainstream that
I enjoy following.  It's why I'm here.  If it was a party at my house,
I would not stick a speaker outside to broadcast only bits and pieces
of the conversation inside, especially without permission.

However, if you build a successful Facebook group, the content
providers will come to you.  Just don't commit the cardinal faux pas
of Facebook and include them in your group without their permission
first.

PJ


From natasha at natasha.cc  Tue Jul 31 02:52:18 2012
From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More)
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2012 21:52:18 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Atten: For any extropy technolibertarians -
In-Reply-To: <CAEtn_z0b51QCtiytKKFFCu1nvgq==NUmrQHAJoWDMg6JAE8sDw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEUzo3Kv62xzBjZ-C0VvYo-TKfofLGZF+ucmh-v4PAKZMvoQqQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJX-7wVrojrqu6sZZE-4eF8h_QeSs1o_NZAfjquXcdnk=ysCMg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120730205115.m4szwtb94w0gkk8w@webmail.natasha.cc>
 <CAEtn_z0b51QCtiytKKFFCu1nvgq==NUmrQHAJoWDMg6JAE8sDw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000c01cd6ec7$7fe2ce10$7fa86a30$@cc>

Interestingly enough I was asked to be involved with a political group out
of Russia and Israel. I'm considering it. It is nonpartisan and on the
platform of radical life extension. There is another competing group and it
will be very interesting to see how this all plays out.

 

Nevertheless, I respect what Kevin is doing and I am confident I will be
involved as an "other". 

 

N

 

 <http://www.natasha.cc/> Natasha Vita-More, PhD 

esDESiGN__1

Chairman,  <http://www.humanityplus.org/> Humanity+



Editor, The Transhumanist Reader: Classical and ContemporaryEssays on the
Science, 
Technology and Philosophy of the Human Future

 

"The things one feels absolutely certain about are never true.  Oscar Wilde
(But is this true then?)

 

From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Joshua Job
Sent: Monday, July 30, 2012 8:38 PM
To: ExI chat list
Subject: Re: [ExI] Atten: For any extropy technolibertarians -

 

I don't post very often (hoping to get more active), but I think there is a
place for just a teensy bit of sectarianism in the broader transhumanist
movement. For example, some might think that government regulations will
slow down progress unjustifiably, while others may view it as the best way
to combat existential risks from technologies like AGI and molecular
nanotechnology. The same goes for social programs--- you could think they'll
make things worse, or better. 

Obviously your views on such things will effect how you go about promoting
transhumanist ideas, and what programs, organizations, and initiatives one
will support. Having a place to discuss such topics with others of like mind
is beneficial for both the movement as well as for the psychology of the
individuals involved. And since the ExI list isn't necessarily the best
place for such discussions, it makes sense to create a group especially for
libertarian transhumanists (and democratic transhumanists, Singularitarians,
etc.).

On Jul 30, 2012 9:18 PM, <natasha at natasha.cc> wrote:

Quoting Max More <max at maxmore.com>:

On Fri, Jul 27, 2012 at 9:33 PM, Kevin G Haskell <kgh1kgh2 at gmail.com> wrote:

Hi all,

I love Max an Natasha, but I just want to let you know about the Facebook
group I moderate called "Technolibertarians."
https://www.facebook.com/groups/technolibertarians/



I'm not sure I understand the "but" here.


Probably because I am not a libertarian and he assumes we are connected at
the hip. Frankly, I really don't like being pigeonholed one way or another.
I mean -- who cares if a person is a technolibertarian or a
technoprogressive or technononpartisian or technotranspolitical?!  As long
as we all are for longer, healthy life and support the technologies that
will most likely bring this about, why exclude each other?

Natasha



_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

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From pharos at gmail.com  Tue Jul 31 13:13:13 2012
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2012 14:13:13 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Gmail now has video conference calls
Message-ID: <CAL_armjmt9bZrdbw6--nO90xNczNcznbpypT9nNoG1BObKafbw@mail.gmail.com>

Video chat face-to-face-to-face with Hangouts in Gmail
<http://gmailblog.blogspot.co.uk/2012/07/video-chat-face-to-face-to-face-with.html>
You?ll be able to chat with all the same people you did before and, in
fact, with Hangouts you?ll now be able to reach them not only when
they are using Gmail but also if they are on Google+ in the browser or
on their Android or iOS devices.

All Gmail users will benefit from this upgrade, but if you and the
person you're chatting with also use Google+, you?ll get even more
from the Hangouts experience. You'll be able to video chat with up to
nine people at once, watch YouTube videos together, collaborate on
Google documents and share your screen.
-------------------

So if you want to chat to somebody offlist, or have a conference call
about a paper, you can now link from Gmail.


BillK



From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Tue Jul 31 13:29:22 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2012 15:29:22 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Pistorius
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2fhB2=f13q0zSK_ujK-=xjfeCjCwZGvFwY7zPp594eyuA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <50134DBC.4060204@aleph.se>
 <CAM5aL2fhB2=f13q0zSK_ujK-=xjfeCjCwZGvFwY7zPp594eyuA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a7xjpzuTwnRbbp_-=ZN_awPgK6LNaLD_XMjtAUdvbyX=w@mail.gmail.com>

On 30 July 2012 19:04, Dave Sill <sparge at gmail.com> wrote:

> While it would seem unjust to deny him the right to compete in the
> Olympics, it would also be unjust to allow him to compete if he has an
> advantage over the other competitors beyond superior natural ability/desire.
>

The crucial issue is that the word "natural" in this stance does not bear
closer inspection. Certainly not with regard to modern athletes.


-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Tue Jul 31 14:39:27 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2012 16:39:27 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Atten: For any extropy technolibertarians -
In-Reply-To: <CAJrtBE0xdcN4Y+7Yjg8JbQMGuXMjwEi9EZr=u9tspa1qXXct2Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEUzo3Kv62xzBjZ-C0VvYo-TKfofLGZF+ucmh-v4PAKZMvoQqQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJX-7wVrojrqu6sZZE-4eF8h_QeSs1o_NZAfjquXcdnk=ysCMg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120730205115.m4szwtb94w0gkk8w@webmail.natasha.cc>
 <CAJrtBE0xdcN4Y+7Yjg8JbQMGuXMjwEi9EZr=u9tspa1qXXct2Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a4qy2R8kU8wuUypA00tBf33DvS+uF8rCjawcitoQiw5ZQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 31 July 2012 03:52, PJ Manney <pjmanney at gmail.com> wrote:

> I'm with Natasha.  I'm not terribly one thing or another and have
> always resisted labels, yet I'm on this list.  And I do not want my
> comments taken out of context.
>

For the record, personally I do not care.

I do not write for a living, in spite of my narcissism I am not obsessed
with attribution, and given the couple of people who spend their life
monitoring anything I may write here or there in order to find juicy
morsels for their dossiers, I am used to weigh carefully my words, and be
ready to stand by them in any circumstance.

Accordingly, I welcome and encourage anybody who makes me the honour of
quoting or even "stealing" anything I may have said or published.

But I think that common courtesy requires respect for everybody's feelings
and choices in this respect.

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From pharos at gmail.com  Tue Jul 31 14:40:03 2012
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2012 15:40:03 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Pistorius
In-Reply-To: <CAPoR7a7xjpzuTwnRbbp_-=ZN_awPgK6LNaLD_XMjtAUdvbyX=w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <50134DBC.4060204@aleph.se>
 <CAM5aL2fhB2=f13q0zSK_ujK-=xjfeCjCwZGvFwY7zPp594eyuA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a7xjpzuTwnRbbp_-=ZN_awPgK6LNaLD_XMjtAUdvbyX=w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armhvM_K6mJhSSo5YHmv=8yfnWayRmtdce9EEiLKDR4UDQQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jul 31, 2012 at 2:29 PM, Stefano Vaj wrote:
> The crucial issue is that the word "natural" in this stance does not bear
> closer inspection. Certainly not with regard to modern athletes.
>
>

Especially with the genetically modified Chinese dolphin-human hybrids
this year. No drugs detected, but they communicate underwater with
clicks and get fish thrown to them after the race.  ;)

Then there is Phelps, that Australian champion swimmer that has been
bred to have flippers instead of feet (size 14) and hyper-mobile ankle
joints, so that he can whip his huge feet like fins.

I can't wait till 100 metres sprinters turn up with huge legs and tiny
bodies on top.


BillK


From sparge at gmail.com  Tue Jul 31 15:05:13 2012
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2012 11:05:13 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Pistorius
In-Reply-To: <CAPoR7a7xjpzuTwnRbbp_-=ZN_awPgK6LNaLD_XMjtAUdvbyX=w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <50134DBC.4060204@aleph.se>
 <CAM5aL2fhB2=f13q0zSK_ujK-=xjfeCjCwZGvFwY7zPp594eyuA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a7xjpzuTwnRbbp_-=ZN_awPgK6LNaLD_XMjtAUdvbyX=w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2fdxPa5VzkbcpT1LXW+ALVY3WoMu8ehpvJrwEkQgoZiJg@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jul 31, 2012 at 9:29 AM, Stefano Vaj <stefano.vaj at gmail.com> wrote:

> On 30 July 2012 19:04, Dave Sill <sparge at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> While it would seem unjust to deny him the right to compete in the
>> Olympics, it would also be unjust to allow him to compete if he has an
>> advantage over the other competitors beyond superior natural ability/desire.
>>
>
> The crucial issue is that the word "natural" in this stance does not bear
> closer inspection. Certainly not with regard to modern athletes.


I'm not sure what you're getting at. My statement above wasn't meant to
stand up to legal scrutiny, but I think my intent was clear. By "natural"
here I mean inborn.

-Dave
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From mrjones2020 at gmail.com  Tue Jul 31 14:09:11 2012
From: mrjones2020 at gmail.com (J.R. Jones)
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2012 10:09:11 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Gmail now has video conference calls
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armjmt9bZrdbw6--nO90xNczNcznbpypT9nNoG1BObKafbw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armjmt9bZrdbw6--nO90xNczNcznbpypT9nNoG1BObKafbw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CADDVf2Lh36bX54dobfcsf5hoH5f=2S6jCtPd=5PAtqOPCa+Vzg@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jul 31, 2012 at 9:13 AM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:

> Video chat face-to-face-to-face with Hangouts in Gmail
> <
> http://gmailblog.blogspot.co.uk/2012/07/video-chat-face-to-face-to-face-with.html
> >
> You?ll be able to chat with all the same people you did before and, in
> fact, with Hangouts you?ll now be able to reach them not only when
> they are using Gmail but also if they are on Google+ in the browser or
> on their Android or iOS devices.
>
> All Gmail users will benefit from this upgrade, but if you and the
> person you're chatting with also use Google+, you?ll get even more
> from the Hangouts experience. You'll be able to video chat with up to
> nine people at once, watch YouTube videos together, collaborate on
> Google documents and share your screen.
> -------------------
>
> So if you want to chat to somebody offlist, or have a conference call
> about a paper, you can now link from Gmail.
>
>
> BillK
>
>
I wonder about the security of the connection, given the recent
developments regarding Skype, or even Facebook and their chat for that
matter.  I suppose, assume you are or can be watched/eavesdropped, unless
you've taken your own specific precautions against..

Either way, yes it's a great service.  Feature packed, and accessible from
many many locations.  And free*.
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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Tue Jul 31 15:11:24 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2012 17:11:24 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Pistorius
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armhvM_K6mJhSSo5YHmv=8yfnWayRmtdce9EEiLKDR4UDQQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <50134DBC.4060204@aleph.se>
 <CAM5aL2fhB2=f13q0zSK_ujK-=xjfeCjCwZGvFwY7zPp594eyuA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a7xjpzuTwnRbbp_-=ZN_awPgK6LNaLD_XMjtAUdvbyX=w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armhvM_K6mJhSSo5YHmv=8yfnWayRmtdce9EEiLKDR4UDQQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a7BWt861rqbP=qosLitybt_FgzgpyjgQ1BFzUfgGHy6Bw@mail.gmail.com>

On 31 July 2012 16:40, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tue, Jul 31, 2012 at 2:29 PM, Stefano Vaj wrote:
> > The crucial issue is that the word "natural" in this stance does not bear
> > closer inspection. Certainly not with regard to modern athletes.
>
> Especially with the genetically modified Chinese dolphin-human hybrids
> this year. No drugs detected, but they communicate underwater with
> clicks and get fish thrown to them after the race.  ;)
>

One can well imagine an arbitrary system of limitations or handicaps, such
as that we already have with racing horses, or for weight categories,
gender, age and golf proficiency with humans.

But this would not have anything of especially "natural".

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Tue Jul 31 15:16:09 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2012 17:16:09 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Pistorius
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2fdxPa5VzkbcpT1LXW+ALVY3WoMu8ehpvJrwEkQgoZiJg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <50134DBC.4060204@aleph.se>
 <CAM5aL2fhB2=f13q0zSK_ujK-=xjfeCjCwZGvFwY7zPp594eyuA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a7xjpzuTwnRbbp_-=ZN_awPgK6LNaLD_XMjtAUdvbyX=w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2fdxPa5VzkbcpT1LXW+ALVY3WoMu8ehpvJrwEkQgoZiJg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a7umsnZpr+A3vqTJ+TBszhNf67Ep4hPPSsCQy2Jc_07uQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 31 July 2012 17:05, Dave Sill <sparge at gmail.com> wrote:

> I'm not sure what you're getting at. My statement above wasn't meant to
> stand up to legal scrutiny, but I think my intent was clear. By "natural"
> here I mean inborn.
>

Hey, running shoes are not "inborn", yet we allow them, don't we?

Moreover, in what sense the biochemical and structural make of an athlete,
which is deliberately modified to improve his or her perfomance, would be
inborn?

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From atymes at gmail.com  Tue Jul 31 16:32:46 2012
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2012 09:32:46 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Gmail now has video conference calls
In-Reply-To: <CADDVf2Lh36bX54dobfcsf5hoH5f=2S6jCtPd=5PAtqOPCa+Vzg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armjmt9bZrdbw6--nO90xNczNcznbpypT9nNoG1BObKafbw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADDVf2Lh36bX54dobfcsf5hoH5f=2S6jCtPd=5PAtqOPCa+Vzg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNQ1YSD6rZgWbXdCdZKH7PrKEH-U3Yq8WnwYG4x5hAHU4A@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jul 31, 2012 at 7:09 AM, J.R. Jones <mrjones2020 at gmail.com> wrote:
> I wonder about the security of the connection, given the recent developments
> regarding Skype, or even Facebook and their chat for that matter.  I
> suppose, assume you are or can be watched/eavesdropped, unless you've taken
> your own specific precautions against..

Always.


From sparge at gmail.com  Tue Jul 31 16:54:31 2012
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2012 12:54:31 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Pistorius
In-Reply-To: <CAPoR7a7umsnZpr+A3vqTJ+TBszhNf67Ep4hPPSsCQy2Jc_07uQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <50134DBC.4060204@aleph.se>
 <CAM5aL2fhB2=f13q0zSK_ujK-=xjfeCjCwZGvFwY7zPp594eyuA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a7xjpzuTwnRbbp_-=ZN_awPgK6LNaLD_XMjtAUdvbyX=w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2fdxPa5VzkbcpT1LXW+ALVY3WoMu8ehpvJrwEkQgoZiJg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a7umsnZpr+A3vqTJ+TBszhNf67Ep4hPPSsCQy2Jc_07uQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2dUysYB+7H3XzCssyP_s3w0uHR0F=_Nz7wHb7FfJ+UECw@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jul 31, 2012 at 11:16 AM, Stefano Vaj <stefano.vaj at gmail.com> wrote:

> On 31 July 2012 17:05, Dave Sill <sparge at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I'm not sure what you're getting at. My statement above wasn't meant to
>> stand up to legal scrutiny, but I think my intent was clear. By "natural"
>> here I mean inborn.
>>
>
> Hey, running shoes are not "inborn", yet we allow them, don't we?
>

Yes, but (1) shoes probably don't confer an advantage, (2) there are rules
governing shoes, and (3) shoes aren't a part of the human body. There need
to be rules governing prostheses ensuring they don't provide an advantage.

Moreover, in what sense the biochemical and structural make of an athlete,
> which is deliberately modified to improve his or her perfomance, would be
> inborn?


In the sense that each cell in their body has their DNA and has been part
of their body since before they were born and the "modifications" allowed
are achieved through natural, biological processes, not a machine shop.

-Dave
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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Tue Jul 31 17:29:52 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2012 19:29:52 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Pistorius
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2dUysYB+7H3XzCssyP_s3w0uHR0F=_Nz7wHb7FfJ+UECw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <50134DBC.4060204@aleph.se>
 <CAM5aL2fhB2=f13q0zSK_ujK-=xjfeCjCwZGvFwY7zPp594eyuA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a7xjpzuTwnRbbp_-=ZN_awPgK6LNaLD_XMjtAUdvbyX=w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2fdxPa5VzkbcpT1LXW+ALVY3WoMu8ehpvJrwEkQgoZiJg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a7umsnZpr+A3vqTJ+TBszhNf67Ep4hPPSsCQy2Jc_07uQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2dUysYB+7H3XzCssyP_s3w0uHR0F=_Nz7wHb7FfJ+UECw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a7Qubg1Tq_ncZ9wURcioMajD8JfjA7o5Z5djx5qw7EBrA@mail.gmail.com>

On 31 July 2012 18:54, Dave Sill <sparge at gmail.com> wrote:

> Yes, but (1) shoes probably don't confer an advantage, (2) there are rules
> governing shoes, and (3) shoes aren't a part of the human body. There need
> to be rules governing prostheses ensuring they don't provide an advantage.
>

1) They do confer an advantage to those running without them
2) We are not discussing here whether rules are possible (Indianapolis has
rules, but cars have no "inborn features"), but whether the concept of
"natural" is of any guidance on what they should "naturally" be
3) Are prostheses? Where exactly the line is drawn?


> In the sense that each cell in their body has their DNA and has been part
> of their body since before they were born and the "modifications" allowed
> are achieved through natural, biological processes, not a machine shop.
>

Let us say that I grow enhanced legs on an athlete after the amputation of
the old pair, rather than in a vat. Would such process be so much more
natural than adopting carbon fiber prostheses?

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From ginakathleenmiller at gmail.com  Tue Jul 31 18:22:16 2012
From: ginakathleenmiller at gmail.com (Gina Miller)
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2012 12:22:16 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Evolution: The birth of new genes
In-Reply-To: <2D783261-D8E9-43D6-8EE3-704AFE735E9D@yahoo.com>
References: <2D783261-D8E9-43D6-8EE3-704AFE735E9D@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAMd8APzTUTwCeXsaFfu3mjWdWMxdUTXagtsJN_4rqstBAi7mKA@mail.gmail.com>

Does anyone have the full article of this?

Gina "Nanogirl" Miller
www.nanogirl.com

On Wed, Jul 18, 2012 at 11:30 AM, Dan Ust <dan_ust at yahoo.com> wrote:

> http://www.nature.com/nrg/journal/v13/n8/full/nrg3287.html
>
> Abstract:
>
> "This paper presents and tests a model for the evolution of new genes from
> non-genic sequences."
>
> Regards,
>
> Dan
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Tue Jul 31 19:00:47 2012
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2012 12:00:47 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Written for another list
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB7zu4QwOrbawVO60avEepRiX3CE44K1R3CkK-dBhHUVSg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB7-tNN-SJb2-XCVU3qYihvvFKH1in2kDWO_z0==xT2c4Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB7zu4QwOrbawVO60avEepRiX3CE44K1R3CkK-dBhHUVSg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB6XaQ7=YZtXJCE2-yLRzP0UJXP=No+_d+6HdxAwQqjWLw@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jul 31, 2012 at 5:00 AM,   "Henrique Moraes Machado"
<cetico.iconoclasta at gmail.com> wrote:

> Have you tried kickstarter? Kidding (or am I?). I'd really love to see that
> happen in my life time.

I have not tried it yet, not having a part of the project that is
small enough to fund this way, at least not yet.  John Mankins tried
to raise money for something related and it failed.

> And what about that maglev launcher system that people have been talking
> recently. Better or worse (if it ever get built)?

A long time ago (before the net) I ran through the engineering
numbers.  At this remove all I remember of that effort was that it
really didn't look good at all.  It was barely possible on the moon.

I have been ask this so many times that I should either look up a
place where it is refuted or write one myself.  As I recall, at
constant acceleration it takes too much power near the end, at
constant power it gets too long.

Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mon, Jul 30, 2012 at 7:36 AM, Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> wrote:
>> That's acceptable for powering
>> lasers, but I can't see much of a market for multiple GW at 20 times
>> the cost of electricity from nuclear plants.
>
> Nope.  If the cost of electricity is higher than what you get
> off the grid, then it's not acceptable for powering lasers,
> since you could just get it off the grid instead.

That would be lovely.  Do you have any suggestions of how to draw 7 GW
off the grid from GEO?

It is possible to send the laser beams up to GEO and bounce them from
there down to the launch vehicle path some 4000 km along the equator.
It may even be more economical because tracking mirrors should be
lighter, but the risk factor of it not working due to atmospheric
distortion is high.  After looking at alternatives, putting a first
power plant and laser in GEO with conventional rockets looked to be
the lower total cost and risk.  This is subject to further analysis.
Want to do it?

>> I can send you the spreadsheet for the financial model if you want to
>> try making money on conventional propulsion.
>
> I might be interested in taking a look *if* your spreadsheet
> includes the costs of the intermediate conventional
> propulsion stage.  If it does not, then you need to add that
> before it is a complete, realistic model.

It does, of course.  But only to build the first propulsion laser, not
to sell power for a dollar a kWh.  Now if you have a *market* for 5 GW
of power at a dollar a kWh, we are in business.

> (I could assume nanosanta for a nanotech project, and
> handwave the costs of developing nanosanta.  That wouldn't
> be a current real world business model either.)
>
>> Perhaps.  I freely admit the model may have errors in assumptions or
>> formula.  Though saying that without looking at the model seems a bit
>> over the top.
>
> No, it's basic business theory.  If you can make a profit with
> practice X after it's developed, and a lesser profit with
> practice Y that does not take significant development, then
> you can compare the efficiency of developing X and then
> making more money over time versus just using Y.

I f can figure out a way to get this started on a smaller scale,
please do.  If you can, I will support your efforts.  I am not welded
to this approach.

As an analogy, it is not possible to mine a low grade ore body and
make money if you try to do it on a small scale.  Sunlight is a low
grade (dilute) energy source.  Collecting it on a scale of tens of TW
is a big task no matter how you slice it.

>> I have no  present intention of showing this project to investors.
>> For one thing, I am assured that there is only one, the Chinese
>> government.  That is already underway.
>
> Nope.  If you really did have a case, there are private investors
> in the US.  There are, in fact, already startups actively
> pursuing this - maybe you should apply for a job so you can
> actually help make this future?
>
> http://www.spaceenergy.com/
> http://www.solarenspace.com/ (though information about their
> post-2009 status is hard to find)

I happen to be intimately knowledgeable about both of these.  I should
not say more on a public forum, but if you want to call sometime . .
..

>> I am mainly interested in making a case that there *is* a way out of
>> the energy/carbon problems without an 80% die off.
>
> The theoretical case has long been made.  The challenge now
> is the litmus test: actually doing it.

That's news to me.  Where?

>> The cost of power at current $10,000/kg is dominated by the lift cost
>> of ~50,000/kW.  Cost of power at that transport rate is ~$2/kWh.
>>
>> For zero lift cost, the cost would be around 1.4 cents per kWh.  The
>> derivation of this is in the paper.
>
> It sounds like you have bigger concerns than the lift cost, if
> that is not a majority of the cost.

It's around a third of the total cost.  I really don't understand your
objection to the other costs.  Do you know of a less expensive way to
make and transmit power to the Earth?

> From: Dan <dan_ust at yahoo.com>
>
> On Sunday, July 29, 2012 4:37 PM Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com
>> Demonstrate it at lower cost with existing technology
>> first, even if you have to accept a much, much slower
>> rate of payback at first.
>
> Or even no payback. It could just be a proof of concept that doesn't even break even, but merely shows it can be done at such and such a price and gives good clues to what it would be like to operate the thing and what might happen at larger scales. Also, in this case, you're not blowing all your resources on a gigantic project that might fail, but a very small one where a failure is far less costly and you can more easily recover from it to try again.

That's a great idea!  Wonder why it has not already been done?

If you can follow the physics, why not is in here:
http://www.sspi.gatech.edu/aiaa-2009-0462_ssp_alternatives_potter.pdf

There are scaling problems that are due to the transmission of
microwaves through the atmosphere and the distance to GEO.

It is about the same expense to built one demonstration power
satellite with conventional rockets as it is to set up the
transportation pipeline and build them by the hundreds.

As for a demonstration that satellites in GEO can deliver measurable
power to the earth, have you ever set up a satellite antenna?

Keith



From rtomek at ceti.pl  Tue Jul 31 19:52:57 2012
From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola)
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2012 21:52:57 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] Pistorius
In-Reply-To: <50134DBC.4060204@aleph.se>
References: <50134DBC.4060204@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1207312114020.6453@tau.ceti.pl>

On Sat, 28 Jul 2012, Anders Sandberg wrote:

> I have been asked to write a piece on Oscar Pistorius participation in the
> olympics (and not the paralympics). Not being very sports interested myself, I
> would be curious to hear what more sports interested members of the list (if
> any) make of the whole thing.
> 
> Normalization of enhancement, the olympics as a biomedical freak show,
> personality cult, or recognition of enormous tenacity?

As far as I can tell, sport has two aspects about itself:

1. A popular one, where "folk" would gather and see how "our guys" (out)do 
"other guys" and be proud etc etc, there is also some connection with 
religious rituals, festivities, show of power and maybe more. There is 
also this thing about people from the slums who by their own willpower 
and spirit raise themselves to the level of the mightiest of the world, 
i.e. heroic tale told/printed part after part by the media ("see, you 
could have done this too, if you worked hard enough") - compare to 
gladiators who could gain freedom and wealth if they entertained 
spectators well enough.

2. Competitive one, where "guys" want to be the first because it gives them 
lots of money, their sponsors can bet and earn even more. So we have 
erythropoietin and anabolics (as well as pregnancy-abortion cycle used in 
the role of doping, I hear), and computer-designed shoes and helmets and 
bicycles, and computers analysing and optimising body movements and so on. 
Heroic aspect slowly dims and is outgrown by industrial-financial aspect. 
Sporthumans become less amiable, and it is harder to identify with them or 
their success as they are more and more a living laboratory glass.

With this in mind, and remembering we love heroic stories, Pistorius fits 
very well. Without his prostheses he would have been limited and maybe 
even pitiful. Now, add his strong will to carbon fibre and we have great 
man. I feel much more sympathy to him than to few other sportsmen, even 
though at the same time I try to analyse the issue without emotional 
arguments.

The first aspect will have to stay because there is a growing need to feed 
masses with entertainment and cheap bread. The second aspect will have to 
stay too, only behind the courtain. So Pistorius is enfant terrible of 
sport, unable to hide his legs under the rug and use them at the same 
time.

Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.      **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home    **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...      **
**                                                                 **
** Tomasz Rola          mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com             **


From lubkin at unreasonable.com  Tue Jul 31 20:11:43 2012
From: lubkin at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin)
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2012 16:11:43 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Welcome to the Future
Message-ID: <201207312034.q6VKY14V026231@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

<http://www.writersofthefuture.com/time-capsule-predictions>

Predictions of 2012 from Asimov, Benford, Budrys, Card,
Feinberg, Glashow, Pohl, Pournelle, Powers, Silverberg,
Williamson, Wolfe, Wolverton, Zelazny.


-- David.



From sparge at gmail.com  Tue Jul 31 20:34:58 2012
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2012 16:34:58 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Pistorius
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1207312114020.6453@tau.ceti.pl>
References: <50134DBC.4060204@aleph.se>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1207312114020.6453@tau.ceti.pl>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2czst0Mo_yNfDfZTr5id3X6vdxZ0muXL9qk7-XroHmifQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jul 31, 2012 at 3:52 PM, Tomasz Rola <rtomek at ceti.pl> wrote:

> On Sat, 28 Jul 2012, Anders Sandberg wrote:
>
> > I have been asked to write a piece on Oscar Pistorius participation in
> the
> > olympics (and not the paralympics). Not being very sports interested
> myself, I
> > would be curious to hear what more sports interested members of the list
> (if
> > any) make of the whole thing.
> >
> > Normalization of enhancement, the olympics as a biomedical freak show,
> > personality cult, or recognition of enormous tenacity?
>
> As far as I can tell, sport has two aspects about itself:
>

I think there are more than just these two...

1. A popular one, where "folk" would gather and see how "our guys" (out)do
> "other guys" and be proud etc etc, there is also some connection with
> religious rituals, festivities, show of power and maybe more. There is
> also this thing about people from the slums who by their own willpower
> and spirit raise themselves to the level of the mightiest of the world,
> i.e. heroic tale told/printed part after part by the media ("see, you
> could have done this too, if you worked hard enough") - compare to
> gladiators who could gain freedom and wealth if they entertained
> spectators well enough.
>

I think first of all you have to consider the differences between
participating in sport and sport as entertainment. And you need to separate
professional players from amateurs. Some people play golf simply because
they enjoy it. They don't get fame or fortune, and they may not even enjoy
informal competition. At the other end of the scale are professionals who
play because they're good enough to make a living at it. They may not even
enjoy playing it. But not every sport is equally spectator-friendly or
potentially lucrative.

Then there are the spectators. They may or may not have ever played the
game, but they enjoy watching others play it. For the most part, spectators
prefer watching the best players.


> 2. Competitive one, where "guys" want to be the first because it gives them
> lots of money, their sponsors can bet and earn even more.


There are lots of competitive athletes who want to be first just because
they have competitive spirit. The two sports in which I compete, autocross
and rowing, are strictly amateur. Cheating is pretty uncommon because
there's not big money at stake.

So we have
> erythropoietin and anabolics (as well as pregnancy-abortion cycle used in
> the role of doping, I hear), and computer-designed shoes and helmets and
> bicycles, and computers analysing and optimising body movements and so on.
> Heroic aspect slowly dims and is outgrown by industrial-financial aspect.
> Sporthumans become less amiable, and it is harder to identify with them or
> their success as they are more and more a living laboratory glass.
>
> With this in mind, and remembering we love heroic stories, Pistorius fits
> very well. Without his prostheses he would have been limited and maybe
> even pitiful. Now, add his strong will to carbon fibre and we have great
> man. I feel much more sympathy to him than to few other sportsmen, even
> though at the same time I try to analyse the issue without emotional
> arguments.


Running isn't a professional sport. There are a handful of runners who
could live comfortably on endorsements, but most competitive runners do it
because they enjoy the competition. But they don't enjoy unfair
competition. If they have to compete against people with motorized shoes or
jetpacks, they'll likely stop trying. There's nothing preventing folks with
motorized shoes from holding "motorized shoe" running competitions. But
pretending they don't offer an advantage over non-motorized shoes is silly.

The first aspect will have to stay because there is a growing need to feed
> masses with entertainment and cheap bread. The second aspect will have to
> stay too, only behind the courtain. So Pistorius is enfant terrible of
> sport, unable to hide his legs under the rug and use them at the same
> time.
>

He wants to be accepted as a normal runner but that's just not likely to
happen anytime soon. Yes, it's unfortunate. Maybe his speed really is
result of his ability and not his artificial legs. The problem, I think, is
that we don't know definitively if his legs give him an advantage.

-Dave
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From sparge at gmail.com  Tue Jul 31 18:20:14 2012
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2012 14:20:14 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Pistorius
In-Reply-To: <CAPoR7a7Qubg1Tq_ncZ9wURcioMajD8JfjA7o5Z5djx5qw7EBrA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <50134DBC.4060204@aleph.se>
 <CAM5aL2fhB2=f13q0zSK_ujK-=xjfeCjCwZGvFwY7zPp594eyuA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a7xjpzuTwnRbbp_-=ZN_awPgK6LNaLD_XMjtAUdvbyX=w@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAM5aL2dgPvKXbXrTU3owoy4HjtZn0zqg=7HU1jAmJRW5L21CRg@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jul 31, 2012 at 1:29 PM, Stefano Vaj <stefano.vaj at gmail.com> wrote:

> On 31 July 2012 18:54, Dave Sill <sparge at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Yes, but (1) shoes probably don't confer an advantage, (2) there are
>> rules governing shoes, and (3) shoes aren't a part of the human body. There
>> need to be rules governing prostheses ensuring they don't provide an
>> advantage.
>>
>
> 1) They do confer an advantage to those running without them
>

Huh?


> 2) We are not discussing here whether rules are possible (Indianapolis has
> rules, but cars have no "inborn features"), but whether the concept of
> "natural" is of any guidance on what they should "naturally" be
>

OK. I think it's a useful concept, you disagree.


>  3) Are prostheses? Where exactly the line is drawn?
>

Seriously? How about when a body part that contributes to the performance
of a sport is replaced with a man-made replacement?

In the sense that each cell in their body has their DNA and has been part
>> of their body since before they were born and the "modifications" allowed
>> are achieved through natural, biological processes, not a machine shop.
>>
>
> Let us say that I grow enhanced legs on an athlete after the amputation of
> the old pair, rather than in a vat. Would such process be so much more
> natural than adopting carbon fiber prostheses?


More natural? Sure. Sufficiently natural to allow fair competition with
someone who has their inborn legs? No.

Rather than picking apart my statements and postulating thought experiments
whose point is unclear, how about actually taking a stand on the original
issue? I'll grant that making rules that ensure fair competition is hard
and getting harder, but I still think it's worth doing.

-Dave
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Sun Jul 29 16:51:16 2012
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2012 12:51:16 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Written for another list
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB7-tNN-SJb2-XCVU3qYihvvFKH1in2kDWO_z0==xT2c4Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB7-tNN-SJb2-XCVU3qYihvvFKH1in2kDWO_z0==xT2c4Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv3LyqVTv69pVavWCner7rXCcvn2BS8AgfJOd_y5W=RgmA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jul 29, 2012  Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> wrote:

> The energy payback from power satellites is short, two months


I think that's a pretty useless figure because the problem is not the high
cost of rocket fuel. In fact even if the launch cost to geosynchronous
orbit were zero I'm not at all sure power satellites would be economically
viable.  I think liquid fluoride thorium reactors are a much better bet and
we already have the technology or nearly so, we've had most of it since the
1960's, and that is pretty amazing considering the tiny amount of money
spent developing the concept.  About half a century ago we made a blunder
and turned to solid fuel uranium reactors and not to liquid fuel thorium
reactors and we've been paying a huge price for that mistake ever since.

  John K Clark
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From atymes at gmail.com  Tue Jul 31 22:25:53 2012
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2012 15:25:53 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Written for another list
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB6XaQ7=YZtXJCE2-yLRzP0UJXP=No+_d+6HdxAwQqjWLw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB7-tNN-SJb2-XCVU3qYihvvFKH1in2kDWO_z0==xT2c4Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB7zu4QwOrbawVO60avEepRiX3CE44K1R3CkK-dBhHUVSg@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CALAdGNQSLKi6rv4NyNp8LtmCNJmFtFFgC9NEn1nbQb-R394XaA@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jul 31, 2012 at 12:00 PM, Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> wrote:
> Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, Jul 30, 2012 at 7:36 AM, Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> That's acceptable for powering
>>> lasers, but I can't see much of a market for multiple GW at 20 times
>>> the cost of electricity from nuclear plants.
>>
>> Nope.  If the cost of electricity is higher than what you get
>> off the grid, then it's not acceptable for powering lasers,
>> since you could just get it off the grid instead.
>
> That would be lovely.  Do you have any suggestions of how to draw 7 GW
> off the grid from GEO?

Ah, I thought you were talking groundside.

But if it's 20 times the cost of nuclear reactors in GEO,
then it's cheaper just to put nuclear reactors in GEO,
and the higher cost is still not acceptable even for
powering lasers.

> It is possible to send the laser beams up to GEO and bounce them from
> there down to the launch vehicle path some 4000 km along the equator.
> It may even be more economical because tracking mirrors should be
> lighter, but the risk factor of it not working due to atmospheric
> distortion is high.  After looking at alternatives, putting a first
> power plant and laser in GEO with conventional rockets looked to be
> the lower total cost and risk.  This is subject to further analysis.
> Want to do it?

No, because I don't buy your premise that it is not
practical to demonstrate this at a much lower scale.

>>> I can send you the spreadsheet for the financial model if you want to
>>> try making money on conventional propulsion.
>>
>> I might be interested in taking a look *if* your spreadsheet
>> includes the costs of the intermediate conventional
>> propulsion stage.  If it does not, then you need to add that
>> before it is a complete, realistic model.
>
> It does, of course.  But only to build the first propulsion laser, not
> to sell power for a dollar a kWh.  Now if you have a *market* for 5 GW
> of power at a dollar a kWh, we are in business.

Hmm, let's see.  You know of any customers who
1) are operating in a mostly-sunny environment,
2) have a high cost of importing fuel to their bases,
3) have a need for mobility (like, say, being able to
repoint their incoming power),
4) already have a no-fly zone above the places they
would like to get power, and
5) have a history of "price is no object" mentalities?

Granted, their current need won't last forever.  But
if they can pay to get the sat up there, and they
take most of the power - you only need to tap it for
a few minutes (maybe up to half an hour) to do the
launch, and these intervals can be scheduled for
moments of anticipated low demand - then, well...

>>> Perhaps.  I freely admit the model may have errors in assumptions or
>>> formula.  Though saying that without looking at the model seems a bit
>>> over the top.
>>
>> No, it's basic business theory.  If you can make a profit with
>> practice X after it's developed, and a lesser profit with
>> practice Y that does not take significant development, then
>> you can compare the efficiency of developing X and then
>> making more money over time versus just using Y.
>
> I f can figure out a way to get this started on a smaller scale,
> please do.  If you can, I will support your efforts.  I am not welded
> to this approach.

What is the gating factor on cost per kg, that makes a
10 ton solar satellite that much more efficient than a 1
ton, or a 0.1 ton?

(Side note: "a 0.1"?  "an 0.1"?  Spike, maybe you could
clue me in as to which is correct?)

> As an analogy, it is not possible to mine a low grade ore body and
> make money if you try to do it on a small scale.  Sunlight is a low
> grade (dilute) energy source.  Collecting it on a scale of tens of TW
> is a big task no matter how you slice it.

If tracking mirrors are that much cheaper and lighter,
then how about replacing most of the PV cells with
those?

>>> I am mainly interested in making a case that there *is* a way out of
>>> the energy/carbon problems without an 80% die off.
>>
>> The theoretical case has long been made.  The challenge now
>> is the litmus test: actually doing it.
>
> That's news to me.  Where?

The theoretical case having been made?  Here, for one.
This very list.

Most of the general public does not seriously believe
that humanity will have an 80% or worse die off in the
next century, but they do believe that the energy/carbon
problems will get, if not solved, at least not very much
worse than they already are - which generally requires
at least a partial solution.

>>> The cost of power at current $10,000/kg is dominated by the lift cost
>>> of ~50,000/kW.  Cost of power at that transport rate is ~$2/kWh.
>>>
>>> For zero lift cost, the cost would be around 1.4 cents per kWh.  The
>>> derivation of this is in the paper.
>>
>> It sounds like you have bigger concerns than the lift cost, if
>> that is not a majority of the cost.
>
> It's around a third of the total cost.  I really don't understand your
> objection to the other costs.  Do you know of a less expensive way to
> make and transmit power to the Earth?

Strawman.  My objections regarding the other costs have
to do with the other costs themselves, not the benefits.
To wit: what *are* the other costs, and how big of a factor
are they?

> From: Dan <dan_ust at yahoo.com>
>> Or even no payback. It could just be a proof of concept that doesn't even break even, but merely shows it can be done at such and such a price and gives good clues to what it would be like to operate the thing and what might happen at larger scales. Also, in this case, you're not blowing all your resources on a gigantic project that might fail, but a very small one where a failure is far less costly and you can more easily recover from it to try again.
>
> That's a great idea!  Wonder why it has not already been done?
>
> If you can follow the physics, why not is in here:
> http://www.sspi.gatech.edu/aiaa-2009-0462_ssp_alternatives_potter.pdf
>
> There are scaling problems that are due to the transmission of
> microwaves through the atmosphere and the distance to GEO.
>
> It is about the same expense to built one demonstration power
> satellite with conventional rockets as it is to set up the
> transportation pipeline and build them by the hundreds.

The paper was written by Boeing.  Boeing institutionally
does not believe in cheap solutions: they threaten
Boeing's business model.  They have a history of making
assumptions to justify keeping things expensive.

A demonstration - pure demonstrator - satellite can be built
and launched for tens of thousands - not millions - of dollars.
It's called a CubeSat.

Yes, it would provide tiny - infinitesimal - power to the ground.
Yes, it would not be cost-efficient to do just 1U CubeSats.

But as a pure demonstrator?  There is a world of difference
between "trivial" and "nothing".

Besides, if lasers really are that much better, and provide
you energy for every launch thereafter, could you bootstrap:
launch something small, then use it to power launching
something a bit bigger, then gang them up to power
launching something yet bigger, and so on exponentially?

How much mass could you launch at once with, say, a
single kW?  How many such launches would you need to
make your next kW?



From max at maxmore.com  Tue Jul 31 23:05:51 2012
From: max at maxmore.com (Max More)
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2012 16:05:51 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Welcome to the Future
In-Reply-To: <201207312034.q6VKY14V026231@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <201207312034.q6VKY14V026231@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <CAJX-7wVfAiVgfVydSHaTSZWQuBbx=VTGM-MfVahkNmKTFBHxZw@mail.gmail.com>

Amazingly poor predictions, over a mere 25 year period. Amazing not because
I expected many close hits (I didn't) but this list is extremely inaccurate.

Stop trying to predict the future and focus on making it happen!

--Max


On Tue, Jul 31, 2012 at 1:11 PM, David Lubkin <lubkin at unreasonable.com>wrote:

> <http://www.**writersofthefuture.com/time-**capsule-predictions<http://www.writersofthefuture.com/time-capsule-predictions>
> >
>
> Predictions of 2012 from Asimov, Benford, Budrys, Card,
> Feinberg, Glashow, Pohl, Pournelle, Powers, Silverberg,
> Williamson, Wolfe, Wolverton, Zelazny.
>
>
> -- David.
>
> ______________________________**_________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/**mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-**chat<http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat>
>



-- 
Max More, PhD
Strategic Philosopher
Co-editor, *The Transhumanist Reader*
President & CEO, Alcor Life Extension Foundation
7895 E. Acoma Dr # 110
Scottsdale, AZ 85260
480/905-1906 ext 113
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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Tue Jul 31 23:57:12 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 01:57:12 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Welcome to the Future
In-Reply-To: <CAJX-7wVfAiVgfVydSHaTSZWQuBbx=VTGM-MfVahkNmKTFBHxZw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <201207312034.q6VKY14V026231@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <CAJX-7wVfAiVgfVydSHaTSZWQuBbx=VTGM-MfVahkNmKTFBHxZw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a5qWhuYnpD2ri4x0FghHaPE2nvkm902SYi1Cz_R3SuKJg@mail.gmail.com>

On 1 August 2012 01:05, Max More <max at maxmore.com> wrote:

> Stop trying to predict the future and focus on making it happen!
>

This should be carved in stone on every transhumanist doorstep.

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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