From alito at organicrobot.com  Thu Mar  1 03:09:06 2012
From: alito at organicrobot.com (Alejandro Dubrovsky)
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2012 14:09:06 +1100
Subject: [ExI] AI milestones
In-Reply-To: <4F4E710F.9040303@aleph.se>
References: <4F4E710F.9040303@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <4F4EE852.6030308@organicrobot.com>


On 03/01/12 05:40, Anders Sandberg wrote:
> I have been asked to make a list of milestones in AI development. This
> is my current list, what have I missed? And what *actually* matters?
> Academic papers easily overstate their importance or rig demos, actual
> use is often hidden inside industry (few papers or reports), and
> impressiveness might correlate very loosely with real importance.
> 
[snipped]

That looks like an excellent list.

Things that I would probably add:

Should Shakey be part of it? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shakey_the_robot

The 80s look surprisingly bare too.  The neural network renaissance
should have produced something interesting, but I can't think of
anything at the moment.

Anything on automated music composition maybe? (David Cope's work for
example: people couldn't tell work from a composer from the work done in
the style of the composer by the program)

Siri as first popular program which people think of as (vaguely) AI?

The gradual automatisation of post sorting?



From pjmanney at gmail.com  Thu Mar  1 03:41:07 2012
From: pjmanney at gmail.com (PJ Manney)
Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 19:41:07 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Future Day = March 1, 2012
In-Reply-To: <8252EF90-D3E9-458A-AB26-1182CFE4AAF3@mac.com>
References: <1DCCBD25-0CCD-48B0-8955-BAEB8B4CED4F@mac.com>
	<8252EF90-D3E9-458A-AB26-1182CFE4AAF3@mac.com>
Message-ID: <CAJrtBE074GPpOMHx6epS4o8b_9nPUQB22jHivEg12yZYZsN8Ug@mail.gmail.com>

I'll be on Fast Forward Radio with Phil Bowermaster and Stephen Gordon
discussing the reasoning behind having a future-based holiday and talk
about how we each celebrated.

http://blog.speculist.com/fastforward_radio/future-day-fastforward-radio.html

Maybe we'll have some fun suggesting holiday traditions for future
Future Days and songs appropriate for the season.  Any suggestions?

Hope you listen in!

PJ

On Wed, Feb 29, 2012 at 10:21 AM, Samantha Atkins <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:
> Forgot the link.
>
> http://futureday.org/
>
>
> On Feb 29, 2012, at 10:10 AM, Samantha Atkins wrote:
>
> What will you do on the very 1st Future Day to celebrate, observe, reflect,
> meet with like minded folks, spread the word, envision and dedicate to
> bringing what you envision into reality?? ?I think a day set aside to focus
> on these things, to bring them to wider attention and to celebrate what is
> within our grasp is a fabulous idea!
>
> How do you plan to observe Future Day?
>
> - samantha
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>



From msd001 at gmail.com  Thu Mar  1 04:23:53 2012
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 23:23:53 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Farming
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB4NBEYPng-PgXtFQWArju_TH+gOtggu7q6=V7ErvKh+PQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB4NBEYPng-PgXtFQWArju_TH+gOtggu7q6=V7ErvKh+PQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOJFdbJQ6-SXocgQyLonxNdk8zgb1mdtsSrQRB9uqUzFLVAJ4A@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Feb 29, 2012 at 6:25 PM, Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> wrote:
> We are, however, just about the last with farm experience.
>
> My children have virtually no experience since by the time they were
> growing up the farming relatives had retired or died.
>
> Even the children of current farmers don't have much experience with
> anything but the pointy end of a large industrial farming support
> system.

Doesn't this only illustrate the gap between us fortunate ones and
those scratching at the dirt hoping to yield enough food to make it to
another day of scratching at the dirt?


From kellycoinguy at gmail.com  Thu Mar  1 05:51:35 2012
From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 22:51:35 -0700
Subject: [ExI] AI milestones
In-Reply-To: <4F4E710F.9040303@aleph.se>
References: <4F4E710F.9040303@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <CAPy8RwZowb1DZ6dPtZJrKvw7hSwGGs=dR68YpGb50eGY6m6vzQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Feb 29, 2012 at 11:40 AM, Anders Sandberg <anders at aleph.se> wrote:
> I have been asked to make a list of milestones in AI development. This is my
> current list, what have I missed?

Fun list.

Asimo

Expert systems for some kinds of medical diagnosis were perfected long ago.

Statistical methods for treating patients with heart attacks
(discussed by Seth Godin, not sure how much AI was in there)

The recent flying machines with dynamic controls that learn to fly
through hoops certainly should make it onto the list, as well as the
first bipedal robots of a few years back.


I'm going to have to digest this one...

2009 OCR accuracy for commercial OCR software between 71% to 98% for
typeset text. For ISO 1073-1:1976 and similar typefaces intended for
OCR performance is human-equivalent. Holley, Rose (April 2009). "How
Good Can It Get? Analysing and Improving OCR Accuracy in Large Scale
Historic Newspaper Digitisation Programs". D-Lib Magazine.
http://www.dlib.org/dlib/march09/holley/03holley.html

There are commercial OCR engines that scan well over 99% accuracy for
typeset text... so I'm thinking that the problem is old newspapers and
bad image acquisition here... I've seen some marks in the 80% range
for hand printed text, for heaven sake!!

-Kelly


From steinberg.will at gmail.com  Thu Mar  1 07:22:50 2012
From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg)
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2012 01:22:50 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Future Day = March 1, 2012
In-Reply-To: <CAJrtBE074GPpOMHx6epS4o8b_9nPUQB22jHivEg12yZYZsN8Ug@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1DCCBD25-0CCD-48B0-8955-BAEB8B4CED4F@mac.com>
	<8252EF90-D3E9-458A-AB26-1182CFE4AAF3@mac.com>
	<CAJrtBE074GPpOMHx6epS4o8b_9nPUQB22jHivEg12yZYZsN8Ug@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKrqSyE29+DFfXn-r=V-4wMhBFt4uCxKLZ02EEgSbD0k07L5gQ@mail.gmail.com>

Spike, you might have malware
On Feb 29, 2012 10:13 PM, "PJ Manney" <pjmanney at gmail.com> wrote:

> I'll be on Fast Forward Radio with Phil Bowermaster and Stephen Gordon
> discussing the reasoning behind having a future-based holiday and talk
> about how we each celebrated.
>
>
> http://blog.speculist.com/fastforward_radio/future-day-fastforward-radio.html
>
> Maybe we'll have some fun suggesting holiday traditions for future
> Future Days and songs appropriate for the season.  Any suggestions?
>
> Hope you listen in!
>
> PJ
>
> On Wed, Feb 29, 2012 at 10:21 AM, Samantha Atkins <sjatkins at mac.com>
> wrote:
> > Forgot the link.
> >
> > http://futureday.org/
> >
> >
> > On Feb 29, 2012, at 10:10 AM, Samantha Atkins wrote:
> >
> > What will you do on the very 1st Future Day to celebrate, observe,
> reflect,
> > meet with like minded folks, spread the word, envision and dedicate to
> > bringing what you envision into reality?   I think a day set aside to
> focus
> > on these things, to bring them to wider attention and to celebrate what
> is
> > within our grasp is a fabulous idea!
> >
> > How do you plan to observe Future Day?
> >
> > - samantha
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > extropy-chat mailing list
> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Thu Mar  1 16:46:21 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2012 17:46:21 +0100
Subject: [ExI] AI milestones
In-Reply-To: <00ca01ccf721$bf3bcad0$3db36070$@att.net>
References: <4F4E710F.9040303@aleph.se>
	<00c301ccf719$69cc6df0$3d6549d0$@att.net>
	<CAOJFdbJKXxuAiDf6L4gC=3PLQ-0C1ytTfsxOXVyLNt+p8hp-HQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<00ca01ccf721$bf3bcad0$3db36070$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a67Vu8wG0825r1OsW1_iE5dYQiy15-bv=k073YZ9VvOHw@mail.gmail.com>

On 29 February 2012 21:35, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> In a sense, a heat seeking missile is a robot after it is fired, and it
sure
> as all hell kills people, or tries to, or rather does what it is
programmed
> to do.  Industrial equipment has had automated controls for a long time.
> Nearly a century ago we had automated continuous miners and coal drilling
> equipment, which would occasionally spark a coal dust explosion which
killed
> plenty of guys.  Autopilots are robots in a sense, and they have been
known
> to fail, killing planeloads of proles.  You can probably think of examples
> that predated 1979.

In Artificious Intelligences<http://www.divenire.org/articolo_versione.asp?id=1>I
maintainand try to demonstrate, that there is really no other possible
sense.

We can simply have a robot more flexible in performing its tasks, or with a
better, more "high-level" understanding of their meaning.

Or we can program it to execute a (pseudo-)Darwinian program, in which case
it will do its best to (survive as a mean to) reproduce, possibly by
pursuing through all sorts of intermediate goals, again with varying
degrees of "intelligence".

In all events, the latter feature can be easily implemented in the system
as of now by including into it a biological "coprocessor" - for instance a
man at a keyboard - without any actual difference for the target in the
crosshair.

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From spike66 at att.net  Thu Mar  1 16:47:55 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2012 08:47:55 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Future Day = March 1, 2012
In-Reply-To: <CAKrqSyE29+DFfXn-r=V-4wMhBFt4uCxKLZ02EEgSbD0k07L5gQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1DCCBD25-0CCD-48B0-8955-BAEB8B4CED4F@mac.com>	<8252EF90-D3E9-458A-AB26-1182CFE4AAF3@mac.com>	<CAJrtBE074GPpOMHx6epS4o8b_9nPUQB22jHivEg12yZYZsN8Ug@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAKrqSyE29+DFfXn-r=V-4wMhBFt4uCxKLZ02EEgSbD0k07L5gQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <005d01ccf7cb$0d6a8c10$283fa430$@att.net>

 

 

From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Will Steinberg
Sent: Wednesday, February 29, 2012 11:23 PM
To: ExI chat list
Subject: Re: [ExI] Future Day = March 1, 2012

 

Spike, you might have malware

 

 

Thanks Will, ran a Norton script to clean it.  Anyone else get junk from my
email account?

spike

 

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From sjatkins at mac.com  Thu Mar  1 17:35:09 2012
From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2012 09:35:09 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Future Day = March 1, 2012
In-Reply-To: <CAJrtBE074GPpOMHx6epS4o8b_9nPUQB22jHivEg12yZYZsN8Ug@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1DCCBD25-0CCD-48B0-8955-BAEB8B4CED4F@mac.com>
	<8252EF90-D3E9-458A-AB26-1182CFE4AAF3@mac.com>
	<CAJrtBE074GPpOMHx6epS4o8b_9nPUQB22jHivEg12yZYZsN8Ug@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1DC8616C-BC68-41D6-B223-A299E52F8C72@mac.com>


On Feb 29, 2012, at 7:41 PM, PJ Manney wrote:

> I'll be on Fast Forward Radio with Phil Bowermaster and Stephen Gordon
> discussing the reasoning behind having a future-based holiday and talk
> about how we each celebrated.
> 
> http://blog.speculist.com/fastforward_radio/future-day-fastforward-radio.html
> 
> Maybe we'll have some fun suggesting holiday traditions for future
> Future Days and songs appropriate for the season.  Any suggestions?

I think spending part of the day in reflection on what you want from the future, clarifying your picture of the best future possible, is good.  From there thoughts on what the steps are to get there, what it will take.     Include if you can the changes in ourselves at an inner level, in our working psychology and in our institutions.   Then blog about it, write essays, make art, get together and hash it out with others.     Think especially on what things you can do in your own life and with your own time to make some of what you desire a bit more likely.

Gatherings with local H+ folks and interested persons of any and all types including tilting a few glasses are in order.

Of course some of you do this much of this sort of thing every day.   

- samantha

> 
> Hope you listen in!
> 
> PJ
> 
> On Wed, Feb 29, 2012 at 10:21 AM, Samantha Atkins <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:
>> Forgot the link.
>> 
>> http://futureday.org/
>> 
>> 
>> On Feb 29, 2012, at 10:10 AM, Samantha Atkins wrote:
>> 
>> What will you do on the very 1st Future Day to celebrate, observe, reflect,
>> meet with like minded folks, spread the word, envision and dedicate to
>> bringing what you envision into reality?   I think a day set aside to focus
>> on these things, to bring them to wider attention and to celebrate what is
>> within our grasp is a fabulous idea!
>> 
>> How do you plan to observe Future Day?
>> 
>> - samantha
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat



From pharos at gmail.com  Thu Mar  1 17:48:13 2012
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2012 17:48:13 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Future Day = March 1, 2012
In-Reply-To: <005d01ccf7cb$0d6a8c10$283fa430$@att.net>
References: <1DCCBD25-0CCD-48B0-8955-BAEB8B4CED4F@mac.com>
	<8252EF90-D3E9-458A-AB26-1182CFE4AAF3@mac.com>
	<CAJrtBE074GPpOMHx6epS4o8b_9nPUQB22jHivEg12yZYZsN8Ug@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAKrqSyE29+DFfXn-r=V-4wMhBFt4uCxKLZ02EEgSbD0k07L5gQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<005d01ccf7cb$0d6a8c10$283fa430$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAL_armjT7j=H8J4-W-mHH15=39P=w8MZGNhSf+03puT_YvdHcA@mail.gmail.com>

2012/3/1 spike wrote:
> Thanks Will, ran a Norton script to clean it.? Anyone else get junk from my
> email account?
>
>


If you ever get infected with malware, I would recommend scanning with
three or four different anti-malware programs. Each program often
picks up bits that other software misses.
They don't all scan for the same things.


BillK



From anders at aleph.se  Thu Mar  1 18:02:04 2012
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2012 18:02:04 +0000
Subject: [ExI] AI milestones
In-Reply-To: <CAPy8RwZowb1DZ6dPtZJrKvw7hSwGGs=dR68YpGb50eGY6m6vzQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4F4E710F.9040303@aleph.se>
	<CAPy8RwZowb1DZ6dPtZJrKvw7hSwGGs=dR68YpGb50eGY6m6vzQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4F4FB99C.2070202@aleph.se>

On 01/03/2012 05:51, Kelly Anderson wrote:
> Asimo 

Hmm, the first walker might be a milestone. But what is Asimo besides 
amazingly cute?


> Expert systems for some kinds of medical diagnosis were perfected long 
> ago. Statistical methods for treating patients with heart attacks 
> (discussed by Seth Godin, not sure how much AI was in there)

Some of the most amazing statistical methods for treatment are utterly 
simple, just a three level decision tree. Here we have a case of 
interesting and important work in AI/machine learning producing a 
conceptually important result, but the result itself is trivial. Goes to 
show that AI breakthroughs can be simple.

The real question is how good the average expert system is. Presumably 
it has to be cost-effective, which leads to the question of how common 
they are in different domains.


> The recent flying machines with dynamic controls that learn to fly 
> through hoops certainly should make it onto the list, as well as the 
> first bipedal robots of a few years back.

Why are the flyers worth to be on the list? (still trying to figure out 
the criteria myself)


> There are commercial OCR engines that scan well over 99% accuracy for 
> typeset text... so I'm thinking that the problem is old newspapers and 
> bad image acquisition here... I've seen some marks in the 80% range 
> for hand printed text, for heaven sake!!

Any references would be welcome. Yes, it was old newspapers.

-- 
Anders Sandberg,
Future of Humanity Institute
Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University



From natasha at natasha.cc  Thu Mar  1 19:48:33 2012
From: natasha at natasha.cc (natasha at natasha.cc)
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2012 14:48:33 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Future Day!  Today in Second Life at 6:00 PM EST
Message-ID: <20120301144833.0buj5rxa8w0koswk@webmail.natasha.cc>



    
<http://slurl.com/secondlife/Terasem/121/155/30/?img=http%3A//hplusmagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/futuredaylogo.png&title=Future%20Day%20in%20Second%20Life%2C%20March%201%202012%206pm%20EST&msg=Future%20Day%20in%20Second%20Life%2C%20March%201%202012%206pm%25[1]>

   See: http://futureday.org/[2]?

    
<http://singularityhub.com/2012/03/01/happy-future-day-march-1st-2012-marks-the-start-of-this-soon-to-be-great-tradition-celebrate-change/[3]>

   http://www.kurzweilai.net/future-day-a-new-global-holiday-march-1[4]



Links:
------
[1]  
http://slurl.com/secondlife/Terasem/121/155/30/?img=http%3A//hplusmagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/futuredaylogo.png&title=Future%20Day%20in%20Second%20Life%2C%20March%201%202012%206pm%20EST&msg=Future%20Day%20in%20Second%20Life%2C%20March%201%202012%206pm%25
[2] http://futureday.org/
[3]  
http://singularityhub.com/2012/03/01/happy-future-day-march-1st-2012-marks-the-start-of-this-soon-to-be-great-tradition-celebrate-change/
[4] http://www.kurzweilai.net/future-day-a-new-global-holiday-march-1


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From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Thu Mar  1 23:36:53 2012
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2012 15:36:53 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ExI] Transhumanist Philosophy
Message-ID: <1330645013.30690.YahooMailNeo@web164505.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

?
Here is my admittedly meager contribution to Transhumanism a la Max More, Nick Bostrum, et. al.:
?"If I define myself by what I am, then I lock myself into?obsolete self-knowledge and restrict my ability to adapt and evolve. If I define myself by what I am constantly becoming from moment to moment, then I constantly adapt and evolve. If I define myself correctly, then I control my own evolution."
?
?
?
Stuart LaForge


"The state that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards, and its fighting by fools." -Thucydides.
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From emlynoregan at gmail.com  Thu Mar  1 23:42:50 2012
From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn)
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 10:12:50 +1030
Subject: [ExI] Peter Diamandis TED talk: Abundance is our future
Message-ID: <CAMp1VPAKxzCNeNBuh-8OAm-AKuBq5iNCbgkL5LK_MFk0LsVyCQ@mail.gmail.com>

http://www.ted.com/talks/peter_diamandis_abundance_is_our_future.html

Beautiful talk, just excellent.

-- 
Emlyn


From mrjones2020 at gmail.com  Fri Mar  2 00:55:13 2012
From: mrjones2020 at gmail.com (J.R. Jones)
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2012 19:55:13 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Farming
In-Reply-To: <CAOJFdbJQ6-SXocgQyLonxNdk8zgb1mdtsSrQRB9uqUzFLVAJ4A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB4NBEYPng-PgXtFQWArju_TH+gOtggu7q6=V7ErvKh+PQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAOJFdbJQ6-SXocgQyLonxNdk8zgb1mdtsSrQRB9uqUzFLVAJ4A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CADDVf2JYWOvbz3ze3sGJ7-TFd_RQGJL3M-fNmVzfmCEQA9hJxg@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Feb 29, 2012 at 11:23 PM, Mike Dougherty <msd001 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Doesn't this only illustrate the gap between us fortunate ones and
> those scratching at the dirt hoping to yield enough food to make it to
> another day of scratching at the dirt?
>

The 'fortunate' ones only remain so, so long as the current system is in
place.  I don't think you'll feel so fortunate, should you go to Giant
Eagle tomorrow to find the shelves empty, with no means/knowledge to
replace the items you intended to purchase.
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From tech101 at gmail.com  Fri Mar  2 02:02:39 2012
From: tech101 at gmail.com (Adam A. Ford)
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 13:02:39 +1100
Subject: [ExI] Peter Diamandis TED talk: Abundance is our future
In-Reply-To: <CAMp1VPAKxzCNeNBuh-8OAm-AKuBq5iNCbgkL5LK_MFk0LsVyCQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMp1VPAKxzCNeNBuh-8OAm-AKuBq5iNCbgkL5LK_MFk0LsVyCQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABG8BmwX=CuCJFbK1mhoDWFPMOQrAd6qrGCQOLTef+gq8VGFZA@mail.gmail.com>

Yes, agreed. We watched it as part of the first Future Day event in
Melbourne.

Have you seen 'Peter Weyland at TED2023: I will change the world' which is
a trailer to the new movie Promethius by Ridley Scott?
http://blog.ted.com/ted2023/

Kind regards,

Adam A. Ford
Singularity Summit Australia Coordinator
H+ Australia, H+ @ Melbourne Summit Coordinator

Mob: +61 421 979 977 | Email:  tech101 at gmail.com
<http://summit.singinst.org.au>

SinginstAU <http://www.singinst.org.au/> | Singularity
Summit<http://summit.singinst.org.au/>
(AU) | Facebook<http://www.facebook.com/pages/The-Singularity-Summit-Australia/136972026316342?v=app_2344061033>|
Twitter <http://twitter.com/singsum_au> |
Youtube<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zMAiGcDHG8>| Singinst
media <http://singinst.org/media/interviews> (US) | H+ @ Melb
Summit<http://www.humanityplus.org.au/conference>
 (AU)

"A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move
toward higher levels." ("Atomic Education Urged by Albert Einstein", New
York Times, 25 May 1946)

Please consider the environment before printing this email



On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 10:42 AM, Emlyn <emlynoregan at gmail.com> wrote:

> http://www.ted.com/talks/peter_diamandis_abundance_is_our_future.html
>
> Beautiful talk, just excellent.
>
> --
> Emlyn
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Fri Mar  2 10:01:30 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 11:01:30 +0100
Subject: [ExI] AI milestones
In-Reply-To: <CAPy8RwZowb1DZ6dPtZJrKvw7hSwGGs=dR68YpGb50eGY6m6vzQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4F4E710F.9040303@aleph.se>
	<CAPy8RwZowb1DZ6dPtZJrKvw7hSwGGs=dR68YpGb50eGY6m6vzQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a7RdPtqvwsAb2WRvyeKO-QxKGj6+C3YLr3DX-mw_J_NTw@mail.gmail.com>

On 1 March 2012 06:51, Kelly Anderson <kellycoinguy at gmail.com> wrote:

> There are commercial OCR engines that scan well over 99% accuracy for
> typeset text...
>

This is an impressive achievement, and sounds great, but let us keep in
mind that 99% in OCR accuracy means more than one mistype each two lines,
some of which cannot be resolved on the basis of the context alone.

I was once a testimonial, as a semi-famous lawyer, for IBM Voice Type
Dictation, and the dictation system in comparison have the advantage of
recognising not single phonemes, but basically entire words, and on the
basis of the preceding and subsequent ones ("trigrammes"). OTOH, mistakes
accordingly become harder to identify, especially if one does not so on the
fly.

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From spike66 at att.net  Fri Mar  2 07:32:39 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2012 23:32:39 -0800
Subject: [ExI] FW:  Jaw-dropping CWRU Alzheimer's breakthrough?
References: <006e01ccf015$4a77b3c0$df671b40$@att.net>	<CAPoR7a5XOAiAdzDvGudgkvfWatnmu_Uy0NowmAZ8rAYmyaxB8w@mail.gmail.com>	<007601ccf061$78548240$68fd86c0$@att.net>	<002401ccf382$a3c35f90$eb4a1eb0$@att.net>	<CAHUTwkNhL6P9OLuZXpKir64TsCKcK2Zy6=jhoe0qQ8+K4oXV1w@mail.gmail.com>	<CAPoR7a5S8Xh6ayEotuy4FjfXjs_=U9yyHRTtL27Kj6Nazpdjmg@mail.gmail.com>	<007f01ccf4fe$17cc0960$47641c20$@att.net>	<CAHUTwkMtbT9qahLd+yXKxrSu1ed2_UumdiruGy5i_+52ZhGVqA@mail.gmail.com>	<017601ccf590$19a23ba0$4ce6b2e0$@att.net>
	<CAOJFdb+OqSyq3SpTAtUPXRDWAcOv8WZZRGhcfEhZRAYFaTq+Jg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <003c01ccf846$a6abae10$f4030a30$@att.net>

 

 


Subject: RE: [ExI] Jaw-dropping CWRU Alzheimer's breakthrough?

 

 

 

Hey cool, a report came out from the Salk Institute in December about a new
Alzheimer's drug they were testing, which they just called compound J147,
perhaps to prevent a stampede of amateur pharmacists from experimenting with
it on themselves and their family members. 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=xz_0zujJjD0>
&v=xz_0zujJjD0

 

They did show a screen shot of the molecule, which I captured at one minute
forty seconds.  Here's the cool part.  Notice the similarity to bexarotene
on the right below:

 

 



 

 

>From the screen shot, J147 has nitrogens in two places where bexarotene has
carbons, the methyl groups are slightly different, the double bond to oxygen
is moved over to a different position and there are three chlorines
substituted on one of the methyl groups.  I would call J147 (left) a
chemical cousin to bexarotene.  Source: US patent from 1998.   

 

It wouldn't surprise me if a family of chemicals similar to bexarotene may
all have some impact on beta amyloids.  We know that the statins are a group
of similar chemicals.  So if we have stumbled upon a kind of Lipitor for the
brain, there will be plenty of one-offs from which to choose.  What I want
to know is if Salk Institute and Case Western influenced each other, or if
the two groups discovered this independently.

 

We know ways to take a known molecule and synthesize a chemical one-off
through substitution.  Chlorine for hydrogen on your outermost methyl is an
easy one.  If we need to go around patent 5,780,676 which still has a little
over three years in it, that might be the way to do it.  Again the stoner
crowd may come riding to the rescue: they do stuff like this all the time.
They can take some controlled stone-forming chemical which is illegal, do a
one-off and create a perfectly legal stone-former.  So they should be able
to teach us a few of those tricks, in which case they would aid humanity
bigtime.

 

This is going to be an interesting next few months as clinical test results
start coming in.

 

spike

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Fri Mar  2 15:11:00 2012
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 08:11:00 -0700
Subject: [ExI] EP, lasers and power satellites
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB4JW6QYENSBb9zD5s6534hgtU1TZX+MKhB_biVNEP06jQ@mail.gmail.com>

Robert Wright was my first introduction to Evolutionary Psychology.
He is now an editor at The Atlantic and wrote this piece:

http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2012/03/why-bombing-iran-would-mean-invading-iran/253834/?google_editors_picks=true

I responded in the comments section:

Robert, I have been a fan since _Moral Animal_, cited you a number of
times and have a couple of EP publications, though my degree is in
engineering.

I would like to suggest a different way, expensive, but much less so
than a war with Iran.  It also provides a solution to energy and
carbon and, unlike a war, it could make enough money to pay off the
national debt, including that needed for Social Security. It even
makes synthetic gasoline for a dollar a gallon.

Long term, solar is the best energy source.  It's hard to use because
it is intermittent.   Dr. Peter Glaser suggested in 1968 that we go
into space (geosynchronous orbit) to collect energy and send it down
by microwaves similar to those communication satellites use.   The
problem is the high cost of shipping millions of tons of parts to GEO.
  Google seth potter boeing power satellite for one of the studies
showing the cost would be around a dollar a kWh given current
transport cost.

We need power at two cents per kWh to make synthetic fuels.  If you
analyze the contribution to cost of space transport, it has to get
down to around $100/kg to GEO.  I don't think that can be done with
chemical fuels.  The SpaceX Falcon Heavy is 40 times too expensive.

Beamed energy propulsion is a different matter.  Instead of getting 1
or 2% of a rocket liftoff mass to orbit as payload, the higher exhaust
velocity from laser heated hydrogen will allow 25% payload and a fully
reusable first stage.  It looks easy to get a cost reduction from over
$10,000 a kg to under $100.  The reason this has not been proposed
before is that the big solid state laser diodes and multi kW fiber
lasers are just coming on the market.

While they make it possible, it's still expensive in parts and the
cost to lift an initial seed laser to GEO.  I estimate the cost to be
between$50 and $100 billion.  That's less then the space station,
about the same as the F-22 and much less than the Iraq War.

So how does laser propulsion keep us from worrying about Iran?  In
addition to propelling rockets to space by heating hydrogen, they can
_melt_ rockets or aircraft being used to deliver nukes.  The SDI
software was repurposed to kill mosquitoes.  Google jordin kare
mosquito laser for the story.  We can repurpose it back to its
original use, after killing a few million mosquitoes it should be
reliable.  Done with Manhattan project type of management, it could be
ready before Iran could make nuclear bombs.

Given that the alternate is a war with Iran, I don't think anyone is
going to be concerned about putting propulsion lasers in space that
are not intended as weapons even though the could be used that way.

Between drones and Hellfire missiles, the US already has the ability
to fire on even our own citizens anywhere in the world.  A propulsion
laser is in the same class as a Hellfire missile so it isn't going to
make things any worse.

If you want to read a slightly out of date longer version, Google
Henson Oil Drum.

Keith


From timhalterman at gmail.com  Fri Mar  2 16:09:30 2012
From: timhalterman at gmail.com (Tim Halterman)
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 10:09:30 -0600
Subject: [ExI] EP, lasers and power satellites
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB4JW6QYENSBb9zD5s6534hgtU1TZX+MKhB_biVNEP06jQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB4JW6QYENSBb9zD5s6534hgtU1TZX+MKhB_biVNEP06jQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMSRAW6D0frFtVn0eVCUX3nrv_4v1eJw8LTHdahi+QYp6ch_0w@mail.gmail.com>

>
>
> Between drones and Hellfire missiles, the US already has the ability
> to fire on even our own citizens anywhere in the world.  A propulsion
> laser is in the same class as a Hellfire missile so it isn't going to
> make things any worse.
>
>
> Keith
>
>
>

Keith,
    I'm sorry this jumped out at me slightly.  Looking at stuxnet virus as
an example I really can't see something like this ever being secure
enough.  We've even recently seen a drone being spoofed and stolen (this is
not necesarilly a fact but appeared plausible).  What would prevent this
potential weapon from possibily falling into the wrong hands.  Even Iran
has the capabilities of putting satellites into space, this would involve
security not even from the software communication side but also the
hardware side, these satellites could be physically manipulated in space.
Do we need defense satellites for defense satellites?  This reminds me of
the star wars talk in the Reagan days.

Tim
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From msd001 at gmail.com  Fri Mar  2 17:19:45 2012
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 12:19:45 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Farming
In-Reply-To: <CADDVf2JYWOvbz3ze3sGJ7-TFd_RQGJL3M-fNmVzfmCEQA9hJxg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB4NBEYPng-PgXtFQWArju_TH+gOtggu7q6=V7ErvKh+PQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAOJFdbJQ6-SXocgQyLonxNdk8zgb1mdtsSrQRB9uqUzFLVAJ4A@mail.gmail.com>
	<CADDVf2JYWOvbz3ze3sGJ7-TFd_RQGJL3M-fNmVzfmCEQA9hJxg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOJFdb+WqWFMBf=zsZXQCF7FbgG0xtdVGDKBAOTLYZcxC1FFXw@mail.gmail.com>

2012/3/1 J.R. Jones <mrjones2020 at gmail.com>:
> On Wed, Feb 29, 2012 at 11:23 PM, Mike Dougherty <msd001 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Doesn't this only illustrate the gap between us fortunate ones and
>> those scratching at the dirt hoping to yield enough food to make it to
>> another day of scratching at the dirt?
>
> The 'fortunate' ones only remain so, so long as the current system is in
> place.? I don't think you'll feel so fortunate, should you go to Giant Eagle
> tomorrow to find the shelves empty, with no means/knowledge to replace the
> items you intended to purchase.

You are so right.  I imagine this is one of those
population-correcting events that ensures the strongest will survive:
either the smartly prepared or the brutest takers will remain after I
have starved (and many like me).

I pretty sure it wouldn't take very long without supplies for polite
society to turn very ugly.



From spike66 at att.net  Fri Mar  2 19:47:36 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 11:47:36 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Farming
In-Reply-To: <CAOJFdb+WqWFMBf=zsZXQCF7FbgG0xtdVGDKBAOTLYZcxC1FFXw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB4NBEYPng-PgXtFQWArju_TH+gOtggu7q6=V7ErvKh+PQ@mail.gmail.com>	<CAOJFdbJQ6-SXocgQyLonxNdk8zgb1mdtsSrQRB9uqUzFLVAJ4A@mail.gmail.com>	<CADDVf2JYWOvbz3ze3sGJ7-TFd_RQGJL3M-fNmVzfmCEQA9hJxg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAOJFdb+WqWFMBf=zsZXQCF7FbgG0xtdVGDKBAOTLYZcxC1FFXw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <006b01ccf8ad$51b81170$f5283450$@att.net>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Mike Dougherty
...

>...I pretty sure it wouldn't take very long without supplies for polite
society to turn very ugly.

_______________________________________________

We are all twenty meals from cannibalism.

spike



From sjatkins at mac.com  Sat Mar  3 00:03:26 2012
From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2012 16:03:26 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Jaw-dropping CWRU Alzheimer's breakthrough?
In-Reply-To: <1330346071.48236.YahooMailNeo@web132106.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.466.1330314863.825.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<1330346071.48236.YahooMailNeo@web132106.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4F515FCE.1020800@mac.com>

On 02/27/2012 04:34 AM, Tom Nowell wrote:
> Spike asked how come stoners take colossal risks putting god knows 
> what junk into themselves and get a free pass. Well, the simple answer 
> is they're not actually taking that big a risk. They have the mighty 
> power of mammalian evolution on their side, and the human body is 
> amazing at detoxifying all sorts of crap. You can fill yourself with 
> rubbish, wash down your pharmaceuticals with a dose of ethanol that 
> would butcher some other mammals, get the munchies and eat some junk 
> food which is more additives than farm produce and still only have a 
> modest hangover in the morning.
>
> I remember hearing a statistic about how many millions of pills of 
> what customers believe is MDMA are taken each week in the UK, but I 
> thought the figure I remembered was too high. 
> http://mdma.net/club-drugs/uk.html reproduced an Observer article from 
> 2003 stating the UN reckoned 730k people took MDMA in the UK, and the 
> National Criminal Intelligence Service said from 500k to 2m pills of 
> "MDMA" (well, something that produces a similar high mixed with random 
> cutting agents, but lets pretend it's actually the drug people thought 
> they were paying for) were consumed each week.

End the War on [some] Drugs.  Sue producers of defective tabs for 
fraud.  Simple.

>
> If that's true, then in 2003 from 25m to 100m badly produced, 
> minimally quality controlled tablets were taken in the UK for the 
> purposes of getting high, and only 72 people died in "ecstasy related 
> deaths", some of which were down to accidents they could have had on 
> other intoxicating substances, some due to allergy, some due to people 
> overdrinking water because they thought they needed that much while 
> taking the drug. http://thedea.org/statistics.html says that in a UK 
> study of 81 deaths where MDMA was present, only 6 died of MDMA 
> toxicity. So, maybe 100 million tablets for single figures of actual 
> deaths from poisoning. It says a lot about the resilience of the human 
> body that large-scale consumption of illegal synthetic drugs still 
> kills less people than old-fashioned heroin or cocaine. (It also says 
> a lot about the UK that so many people escape the tedium of their 
> lives through getting completely off their faces, nothing has changed 
> since the gin-swilling drunks depicted by Hogarth in the 18th century)
>

Compare that to the numbers that died from alcohol.  Or from tobacco.

- samantha

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From sjatkins at mac.com  Sat Mar  3 00:05:32 2012
From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2012 16:05:32 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Jaw-dropping CWRU Alzheimer's breakthrough?
In-Reply-To: <CAPy8RwbyZWVURXyni9gaT+PcpzqL94u2aJ9nAMzo_GpPs-7q-w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.466.1330314863.825.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<1330346071.48236.YahooMailNeo@web132106.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
	<00f101ccf565$40f7deb0$c2e79c10$@att.net>
	<CAPy8RwbyZWVURXyni9gaT+PcpzqL94u2aJ9nAMzo_GpPs-7q-w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4F51604C.20000@mac.com>

On 02/28/2012 11:47 PM, Kelly Anderson wrote:
> 2012/2/27 spike<spike66 at att.net>:
>> Thanks Tom!  That is exactly what I suspected.  Our litigious society goes
>> to heck and gone chasing tiny risks, when huge risks result from inaction.
>> I propose a class of medications in which we apply the shocking caveat that
>> the patient accepts her own risk, because we do not know everything.  The
>> stoners REALLY ARE a special class of people, I say with all due respect and
>> humility, for they accept their own risk, in the sense they don?t sue anyone
>> if their dope is insufficiently pure and safe.  Of course they load their
>> cost and risk onto us in other ways, but they don?t sue.
> Only because we LET them. A very large expense for the government is
> in taking care of the children of drug abusers that they deem
> necessary to remove from their parents.

Are you saying that an adult needs your permission to put something in 
their own body?  Really?


>   My kids have probably cost the
> government a couple of million dollars over their childhood, and
> that's just 8 children!!
>
> If we would legalize drugs, and encourage people taking certain drugs
> to be sterilized so we don't have to take care of the kids they can't
> take care of (or the system won't LET them take care of because they
> take drugs), we would go a long way towards solving ALL of our
> financial problems...
>

Are you saying you or anyone else should be able to force people to be 
sterilized?  Really?

- samantha



From sjatkins at mac.com  Sat Mar  3 00:09:37 2012
From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2012 16:09:37 -0800
Subject: [ExI] RIP: Peak Oil - we won't be running out any time soon
In-Reply-To: <20120224211652.GM7343@leitl.org>
References: <CAPoR7a67Os-gOp3PTDfBuh4bZN5RAJTEaaabUbQX1EOPQ2WtLg@mail.gmail.com>
	<20120224211652.GM7343@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <4F516141.7030101@mac.com>

On 02/24/2012 01:16 PM, Eugen Leitl wrote:
> On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 09:29:19PM +0100, Stefano Vaj wrote:
>> Interesting...
>> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/02/23/peak_oil_is_dead_citigroup/
> The opposite, it's the usual fact-free arm-waving. Head over to
> http://theoildrum.com/ for the actual numbers and reliable facts.
>
> I like The Register, but it takes a giant rock of salt.

Yep, and a pint a bitters.

- s



From sjatkins at mac.com  Sat Mar  3 00:19:44 2012
From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2012 16:19:44 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Doomsday Oil Price: (was RIP: Peak Oil)
In-Reply-To: <00da01ccf414$666c2b30$33448190$@att.net>
References: <CAPoR7a67Os-gOp3PTDfBuh4bZN5RAJTEaaabUbQX1EOPQ2WtLg@mail.gmail.com>
	<20120224211652.GM7343@leitl.org>
	<1330122650.78329.YahooMailNeo@web164502.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<CALAdGNSK_WdsxcEgexwQ=qw+DQYJ2XP7PekJyWD=ky_G9Br1rg@mail.gmail.com>
	<1330201603.28318.YahooMailNeo@web164506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<CALAdGNS8p-_cqR5vRoqGV1YA336fRmGBxq_X+M0=qH0Q0HjMAg@mail.gmail.com>
	<00da01ccf414$666c2b30$33448190$@att.net>
Message-ID: <4F5163A0.70500@mac.com>

On 02/25/2012 03:22 PM, spike wrote:
>> ... On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes
> ...
>
>>   The point is how fast can the oil companies come up with an affordable
> synfuel that can work in the cars that are on the road RIGHT NOW?
>
> But it isn't really about cars.  Alternatives there are fairly easy: way
> smaller lighter slower cars, and failing that, bicycles and scooters.

Try your average commute on a bicycle.  Scooters are ok.  But really the 
largest part of oil use by personal vehicles is commuting.  So have 
everyone that can do their job from home do so.  That we still have 
hours of daily nasty traffic and spend $100 billion/yr in the US alone 
of lost productivity commuting to jobs is much more damning than the 
lack of flying cars.

Also remember that the last (at least) leg of almost all delivery 
services, including to the shelves of stores, is by truck.  This is a 
very direct increase to the price of all goods if oil rises to high.  
Many distribution channels can simply disappear at a certain price point.

> But
> it isn't really all about cars, or even semi-trucks that carry food from the
> agricultural areas to the population centers, for we can retrofit and slow
> these and save a lot of fuel.

Slowing them is actually wasteful and expensive on multiple fronts.  We 
can't retrofit them at all quickly except for flex fuel which is pretty 
easy to do.

>    The transition to renewable energy is really
> about fertilizer and powering farm equipment.

It doesn't have to be renewable.  We have enough thorium for 10000 
years.  And used correctly it produces energy cheaper than anything we 
have today and far cleaner than almost all alternatives.

- samantha



From msd001 at gmail.com  Sat Mar  3 01:04:46 2012
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 20:04:46 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Farming
In-Reply-To: <006b01ccf8ad$51b81170$f5283450$@att.net>
References: <CAPiwVB4NBEYPng-PgXtFQWArju_TH+gOtggu7q6=V7ErvKh+PQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAOJFdbJQ6-SXocgQyLonxNdk8zgb1mdtsSrQRB9uqUzFLVAJ4A@mail.gmail.com>
	<CADDVf2JYWOvbz3ze3sGJ7-TFd_RQGJL3M-fNmVzfmCEQA9hJxg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAOJFdb+WqWFMBf=zsZXQCF7FbgG0xtdVGDKBAOTLYZcxC1FFXw@mail.gmail.com>
	<006b01ccf8ad$51b81170$f5283450$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAOJFdb+7AT+uRbB9J16pZ-5p==ADo-rtdtRHLOHLYysk2R68-Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 2:47 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Mike Dougherty
>>...I pretty sure it wouldn't take very long without supplies for polite
> society to turn very ugly.
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> We are all twenty meals from cannibalism.

We are all twenty meals FOR cannibalism.


From spike66 at att.net  Sat Mar  3 04:18:23 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 20:18:23 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Jaw-dropping CWRU Alzheimer's breakthrough?
In-Reply-To: <4F51604C.20000@mac.com>
References: <mailman.466.1330314863.825.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>	<1330346071.48236.YahooMailNeo@web132106.mail.ird.yahoo.com>	<00f101ccf565$40f7deb0$c2e79c10$@att.net>	<CAPy8RwbyZWVURXyni9gaT+PcpzqL94u2aJ9nAMzo_GpPs-7q-w@mail.gmail.com>
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>... On Behalf Of Samantha Atkins
Subject: Re: [ExI] Jaw-dropping CWRU Alzheimer's breakthrough?

On 02/28/2012 11:47 PM, Kelly Anderson wrote:
> 2012/2/27 spike<spike66 at att.net>:
>> Thanks Tom!  That is exactly what I suspected.  Our litigious society 
>> goes to heck and gone chasing tiny risks, when huge risks result from
inaction.
>> I propose a class of medications in which we apply the shocking 
>> caveat that the patient accepts her own risk...

>...Are you saying that an adult needs your permission to put something in
their own body?  Really? - samantha


Is not the entire concept absurd?

This whole bexarotene adventure caused me to really ponder something I
seldom give a second thought, for I am one of the fortunate ones, to have
reached the half century mark without having to take any medications of any
kind on a regular basis, no vitamins, no little orange plastic bottles,
nothing.  I don't think about it much, but consider the absurdity on
multiple levels.

We have constructed a monstrosity of a procedure to get a new medication
approved.  This process can cost half a billion dollars or more, and
investors are eager to make their money back (imagine that), so we have
situations like Targretin.  If bexarotene is taken in that form, the daily
dose is about 40 dollars, but reagent grade bex is under a dollar a day.
For your money, you get a dosage of bexarotene which is measured to within
about 20 parts per thousand, so you can be sure you are getting right at the
lab tested and demonstrated safe 75 milligrams, but I challenge you to fail
to notice the obvious astonishing failure of logic: humans vary in size by
at least a factor of two, even if we stay within the two sigma range.  Yet
all patients are given the same very precisely measured 75 milligrams.  You
are also assured of not devouring a fraction of a milligram of catalysts,
don't you feel better now, without all that bad old aluminum trichlor and
(gasp!) sodium hydroxide.

Even this observation fails to plumb the depths of the absurdity, for skinny
people have a larger proportion of their body mass in bone, which does not
interact much with medications.  If I compare my bony ass self with normal
people, my non-bone mass is perhaps a factor of three below that of my own
good friend and colleague who is easily two of me, three if we look at just
non-bone mass.  Yet we both get the same VERY PRECISELY measured dosage.

Samantha, your post points toward the fact that our wonderfully safe system
is protecting us to death.  Many people cannot come up with an extra 1200 a
month, especially those suffering from the financially debilitating malady
of Alzheimer's.  So if one is squirmy about medications anyway (as I am) and
never eats medications off-label, our medical system keeps a possibly
life-saving medication away from the patient.  But if the stoner community
comes galloping to our aid, and eats this stuff in reagent form dissolved in
alcohol, they being generally more comfortable with this sort of thing, then
they will have performed a wonderful service for humankind, for reagent
grade bexarotene is within the reach of even the poor among us.  If it works
out that way, I may be forced to stop making snarky comments about the
stoner community.  They will no longer be dopers, but rather the volunteer
medical test community which enjoys a good time through advanced chemistry.

All that being said, I recommend you not go out and devour bex before you
talk to your doctor, for there are known side effects which can likely be
compensated, specifically hypothyroidism.  There are others, but I can
imagine there are plenty of doctors around who will so welcome that data
that they will do what they can for you.

According to the word on the street, it will take 8 to 10 years for proper
clinical trials, if they are done at all (no guarantee, for the patent will
expire soon.)  But there will be plenty of reliable-ish data coming in the
next few months from the afore mentioned recreational chemists.

Encouraging parting shot: the Salk Institute has been experimenting with an
AD medication, which they do not identify chemically, but which they offer a
screen shot in the following video at about 1 minute 40 seconds.  It is
chemically very similar to bexarotene, with the differences being slight
relocation of the methyl groups and chlorine substitution of three
hydrogens.  Check it out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=xz_0zujJjD0

Is this a great time to be alive or what?

spike  







From deimtee at optusnet.com.au  Sat Mar  3 08:52:08 2012
From: deimtee at optusnet.com.au (david)
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2012 19:52:08 +1100
Subject: [ExI] Jaw-dropping CWRU Alzheimer's breakthrough?
In-Reply-To: <00ca01ccf8f4$aca75d60$05f61820$@att.net>
References: <mailman.466.1330314863.825.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<1330346071.48236.YahooMailNeo@web132106.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
	<00f101ccf565$40f7deb0$c2e79c10$@att.net>
	<CAPy8RwbyZWVURXyni9gaT+PcpzqL94u2aJ9nAMzo_GpPs-7q-w@mail.gmail.com>
	<4F51604C.20000@mac.com> <00ca01ccf8f4$aca75d60$05f61820$@att.net>
Message-ID: <20120303195208.45bb2102@jarrah>


On a related front, it looks like research into protein-clump busting
is continuing apace, although this model is even further away from
human - modified zebrafish.

http://scienceblog.com/52489/parkinsons-disease-stopped-in-animal-model/

(thanks to Eugen's tt list for this link)

-David.


From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Sat Mar  3 11:31:02 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2012 12:31:02 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Human Testing
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a77AF6OjBgevwpZD_4J7RWD4L4y0=MxnBH0pBbwLTkTAA@mail.gmail.com>

On 3 March 2012 05:18, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> We have constructed a monstrosity of a procedure to get a new medication
> approved.

Interestingly, this has much to do with the existing taboo about
research programmes and experiments involving humans, which
immediately evoke in the collective perception Frankenstein,
horror-movie mad scientists, concentration camps, etc.

This goes much beyond the concern for the welfare of the people
involved - which is hardly justifiable anyway from, say, a utilitarian
ethical perspective - and derives from the fundamentally
anti-transhumanist stance where all this (in fact, until the XVIII
century even corpse dissections...) is blasphemy, and a breach of a
"do not touch what is in the image of God" command.

So, while the prohibition have been relaxed with time, the regulatory
system is still based on the idea that it is morally much better to
let 1000 people be killed by the "hand of god" than to risk to harm
one with your own.

-- 
Stefano Vaj


From spike66 at att.net  Sat Mar  3 14:39:10 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2012 06:39:10 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Human Testing
In-Reply-To: <CAPoR7a77AF6OjBgevwpZD_4J7RWD4L4y0=MxnBH0pBbwLTkTAA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPoR7a77AF6OjBgevwpZD_4J7RWD4L4y0=MxnBH0pBbwLTkTAA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <002c01ccf94b$65af9150$310eb3f0$@att.net>

>... On Behalf Of Stefano Vaj
Subject: [ExI] Human Testing

On 3 March 2012 05:18, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>> We have constructed a monstrosity of a procedure to get a new medication
approved...

>...Interestingly, this has much to do with the existing taboo about
research programmes and experiments involving humans...So, while the
prohibition have been relaxed with time, the regulatory system is still
based on the idea that it is morally much better to let 1000 people be
killed by the "hand of god" than to risk to harm one with your own.  --
Stefano Vaj
_______________________________________________

Ja, and this latest case will really tear the mask off of that problem.  We
have long known there are maddening ethical dilemmas posed by medical
research.  Imagine that there is a class of molecules which somehow breaks
up beta amyloid clumps, thereby saving Alzheimer's and Parkinson's patients
(as well as a long list of lesser known degenerative maladies) and this
class of molecules are easily synthesized.  In order to determine the
efficacy, you need a control group, a subset of patients who get a placebo.
These die, and ruin their families in the process, all while there is
growing consensus and evidence that the medications given to the others are
effective.  These live, and perhaps leave the medical facility.

For a double blind test to be done correctly, the placebo patients must be
chosen randomly.  There is no way for the researchers to give the real meds
to those who have a ton of money for instance, for that could (and probably
would) skew the results.  They can't pick the smartest patients for real
meds either.  The doctors would not know which patients were being given the
real meds.

So suppose the doctors recommend the trial be halted and all the patients
are given the medications (this is a common outcome.)  They reason that it
would cost less than four cigarettes a day and is relatively mild in side
effects.  Recall that the trial was halted early, so it still is not clear
if the medications are effective.  Then we risk introducing another Aricept,
which is the current commonly prescribed AD medication, which from firsthand
observation of a family member, appears to do not a damn thing, and yet it
too has a list of side effects and risks.  

So now we are in a hell of a position: if ANYTHING works, or seems to, it is
probably better than the go-to drugs we now have, Aricept and Namenda.  So
we are at a high risk of moving to a medication which may not work very
well, but is better than two meds we know don't work very well either.  To
make things worse, Aricept and Namenda apparently do help some patients.
The syndrome we call Alzheimer's is actually a collection of related
disorders.  Untangling all of it is wildly complicated.

In all the articles I am reading, the chemical class to which bexarotene
belongs is creating a stir for a reason I find striking: in these articles
the medics will marvel at the gentleness of the side effects.  They are not
actually claiming these medications work against the disease, but seem to be
say, WOW this doesn't kill our patients!

If so, bexarotene might be a huge leap forward, for it is low cost (if taken
at reagent grade) and its side effects are probably mild in most patients.
Then if reagent grade bexarotene eventually proves to be not effective, we
might be in a situation where the patients who take an alternate medical
treatment are better off than those who take the one approved by the medical
establishment, and almost as well off as those who eschew all medications.

Oy vey, is this a hell of a note or what?  How did we get here?

spike



From spike66 at att.net  Sat Mar  3 14:56:41 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2012 06:56:41 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Jaw-dropping CWRU Alzheimer's breakthrough?
In-Reply-To: <00ca01ccf8f4$aca75d60$05f61820$@att.net>
References: <mailman.466.1330314863.825.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>	<1330346071.48236.YahooMailNeo@web132106.mail.ird.yahoo.com>	<00f101ccf565$40f7deb0$c2e79c10$@att.net>	<CAPy8RwbyZWVURXyni9gaT+PcpzqL94u2aJ9nAMzo_GpPs-7q-w@mail.gmail.com>	<4F51604C.20000@mac.com>
	<00ca01ccf8f4$aca75d60$05f61820$@att.net>
Message-ID: <003001ccf94d$d83f3200$88bd9600$@att.net>


> 2012/2/27 spike<spike66 at att.net>:
>> Thanks Tom!  That is exactly what I suspected.  Our litigious society 
>> goes to heck and gone chasing tiny risks, when huge risks result from
inaction.
>> I propose a class of medications in which we apply the shocking 
>> caveat that the patient accepts her own risk...


I perceive a massive sea-change in the medical establishment brought about
by the informed and empowered patient.  Compare now to twenty years ago.
Even that recently, the information about a new medication was all in the
hands of the medical community.  But now with widespread use of the
internet, everything is different.  As soon as the bexarotene results were
announced in the popular press, several of us ran with the ball, discovered
low cost sources of the active ingredient (by low cost, I mean about 2% the
price of the pharmaceutical grade) and figured out a way to deliver it,
worked out the chemistry for dissolving it, estimated the risks involved in
using reagent grade material and so on.  We found out there are several
research facilities looking into this class of drugs, and that Case Western
wasn't the leader in all this, nor was the Salk Institute (the jury is still
out on that one.)  We found out that apparently several different facilities
may have discovered the beta amyloid breaking characteristics of the
curcumin-class molecules semi-independently, and we found out that amateur
scientists may get ahold of curcumin, modify it in a home chemistry lab, all
of this being done legally, morally and ethically, and give it to mice for
instance. 

There are patient communities online as well.  The Alzheimer's online
community is huge, but it is a one-off: the patients themselves are often
not particularly helpful, for they live inside the partially disabled brain.
Clear communications must come from a family member.  But the point is, the
internet provides perhaps the most powerful weapon against disease ever
devised.

Medical researchers no longer have a stranglehold on information.  Regarding
my 1 to 10 thought experiment I proposed recently, this is a poster-child
example.  We can find out things so much more readily today than even twenty
years ago, I see it as a fundamental game changer.

spike




From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Sat Mar  3 15:21:55 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2012 16:21:55 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Human Testing
In-Reply-To: <002c01ccf94b$65af9150$310eb3f0$@att.net>
References: <CAPoR7a77AF6OjBgevwpZD_4J7RWD4L4y0=MxnBH0pBbwLTkTAA@mail.gmail.com>
	<002c01ccf94b$65af9150$310eb3f0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a7TjaRRNAgaOEd4BiGEVvhzzCcWFeM9cGvVxdLnabhpbw@mail.gmail.com>

On 3 March 2012 15:39, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> Ja, and this latest case will really tear the mask off of that problem. ?We
> have long known there are maddening ethical dilemmas posed by medical
> research. ?Imagine that there is a class of molecules which somehow breaks
> up beta amyloid clumps, thereby saving Alzheimer's and Parkinson's patients
> (as well as a long list of lesser known degenerative maladies) and this
> class of molecules are easily synthesized. ?In order to determine the
> efficacy, you need a control group, a subset of patients who get a placebo.
> These die, and ruin their families in the process, all while there is
> growing consensus and evidence that the medications given to the others are
> effective. ?These live, and perhaps leave the medical facility.

This is a well-known conundrum, but I suspect that after all in a
dominant mentality still shaped by 1500+ years of monotheist values
the real problem is not so much in the placebo patients who are after
all left in the care of the Providence, but of the reluctance to
decide in the God's stead who is going to live or die , who is going
to run a risk and who is going to have a chance, etc.

Sure, at the end of the day the survival instinct, the demand for
medical treatment and the wish to stop suffering are so strong that
*some* research and progress are of course in place. But I maintain
that the obsession also in this field for the Precautionary Principle
betrays a deep and deeply rooted, superstitious unease with regard to
any technoscientific effort involving the human body and the human
life.

--
Stefano Vaj



From spike66 at att.net  Sat Mar  3 15:20:57 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2012 07:20:57 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Jaw-dropping CWRU Alzheimer's breakthrough?
References: <mailman.466.1330314863.825.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>	<1330346071.48236.YahooMailNeo@web132106.mail.ird.yahoo.com>	<00f101ccf565$40f7deb0$c2e79c10$@att.net>	<CAPy8RwbyZWVURXyni9gaT+PcpzqL94u2aJ9nAMzo_GpPs-7q-w@mail.gmail.com>	<4F51604C.20000@mac.com>
	<00ca01ccf8f4$aca75d60$05f61820$@att.net> 
Message-ID: <003401ccf951$3bb77dd0$b3267970$@att.net>



From: spike [mailto:spike66 at att.net] 
Subject: RE: [ExI] Jaw-dropping CWRU Alzheimer's breakthrough?


>...we found out that amateur scientists may get ahold of curcumin, modify
it in a home chemistry lab, all of this being done legally, morally and
ethically... spike 


WOW check this!  Many of you here may know John Smart.  He used to hang out
on ExI years ago, and do let me assure you he is appropriately named.  He
gives pitches at the local singularity events.  I thought his singularity
pitches were even more insightful than Eliezer's in some important ways.
John heads up the Acceleration Studies Foundation:

http://accelerating.org/

I just stumbled across a paper that shows John was onto the beneficial
effects of curcumin at least three years ago:

http://accelerating.org/articles/curcumin.html

He even mentions the possible benefits to AD patients in that article.

Note that the Salk Institute created J147 as a chemical one-off of curcumin
extract, and bexarotene is very similar to Salk's J147, and UCLA's custom
molecule CLR01:

http://www.news-medical.net/news/20120302/CLR01-blocks-toxic-aggregations-of
-proteins-in-mouse-model-of-Parkinsons.aspx

John, if you are lurking, WELL DONE, me lad.

spike



From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Sat Mar  3 15:34:36 2012
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2012 08:34:36 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Wireless technology jump.
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB4Ne16d+b0A-H6gGAQ-1VzRKcd5144x9HHOMDE+bA1jvQ@mail.gmail.com>

http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/120803-vortex-radio-waves-could-boost-wireless-capacity-infinitely

"It is hard to put into words just how significant Thide?s discovery
could be. If the vortex preserves other aspects of wireless
communications, such as multiplexing, then in the short term we could
be looking at a wireless spectrum that can carry 10 or 20 times as
much data. In the long term, as our understanding of orbital angular
momentum grows, our wireless spectrum could effectively be infinite.
To be honest, this is such a huge twist for wireless communications
that the full repercussions are not yet known."

There are several entries by the professor who invented this trick in
the comments along with pointers into peer reviewed papers.

Keith



From deimtee at optusnet.com.au  Sat Mar  3 15:48:01 2012
From: deimtee at optusnet.com.au (david)
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2012 02:48:01 +1100
Subject: [ExI] Human Testing
In-Reply-To: <002c01ccf94b$65af9150$310eb3f0$@att.net>
References: <CAPoR7a77AF6OjBgevwpZD_4J7RWD4L4y0=MxnBH0pBbwLTkTAA@mail.gmail.com>
	<002c01ccf94b$65af9150$310eb3f0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <20120304024801.667ad800@jarrah>

On Sat, 3 Mar 2012 06:39:10 -0800
"spike" <spike66 at att.net> wrote:



> If so, bexarotene might be a huge leap forward, for it is low cost
> (if taken at reagent grade) and its side effects are probably mild in
> most patients. 
 
> spike
> 


It has been a long time since I seriously studied chemistry, but given
that the data sheets claim it to be "moderately soluble in ethanol
(with warming)" the reageant grade would seem to be a candidate for a
simple re-crystallization.

Basically, warm up some alcohol, saturate it with reagent grade
bexarotene, filter off the liquid and throw away the solids - this gets
rid of insoluble impurities.  
Then you cool it down to crystallize the bexarotene, and filter again.
Most of the remaining impurities will remain in solution. The solids
this time will be almost pure bexarotene. 

Personally, this would be enough for oral medication, but I would be a
lot more wary if you are planning to inject it.

A currently practicing chemist would certainly do better, but
re-crystallization is something you could do at home with minimal
equipment, and with reasonable yields - from memory I think we got in
the range of 40 to 80% recovery.

-David


From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Sat Mar  3 16:03:37 2012
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2012 09:03:37 -0700
Subject: [ExI] EP, lasers and power satellites
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB7963PWBMzF_Auq1Yrp9qErCiTAV5DXt5Ya1TaZX0QYcw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Mar 3, 2012 at 5:00 AM,  Tim Halterman <timhalterman at gmail.com> wrote:

(Keith)
>>
>> Between drones and Hellfire missiles, the US already has the ability
>> to fire on even our own citizens anywhere in the world. ?A propulsion
>> laser is in the same class as a Hellfire missile so it isn't going to
>> make things any worse.

> Keith,
> ? ?I'm sorry this jumped out at me slightly. ?Looking at stuxnet virus as
> an example I really can't see something like this ever being secure
> enough.

If it comes down to building laser propulsion to solve the
energy/carbon problems or several billion people starving and dying in
resource wars, which do you pick?

> We've even recently seen a drone being spoofed and stolen (this is
> not necesarilly a fact but appeared plausible). ?What would prevent this
> potential weapon from possibily falling into the wrong hands. ?Even Iran
> has the capabilities of putting satellites into space, this would involve
> security not even from the software communication side but also the
> hardware side, these satellites could be physically manipulated in space.

That's true, but it's not simple.  Two GW of propulsion output
requires four square km of radiator just to get rid of the waste heat
from the lasers.  The income from this thing is $50 B per year, so
there is reason to be sure it is not diverted.

> Do we need defense satellites for defense satellites?

A big propulsion laser is its own defense.  It's possible to destroy
one with a big nuke inside a thick carbide shell, but it's not an easy
task.  Certainly beyond Iran for a *long* time.

> This reminds me of the star wars talk in the Reagan days.

Well, yes.  Things, particularly computers, have come a long way since
those days.  Did you read the article on what the software is being
used for now?

Keith



From spike66 at att.net  Sat Mar  3 15:57:29 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2012 07:57:29 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Wireless technology jump.
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB4Ne16d+b0A-H6gGAQ-1VzRKcd5144x9HHOMDE+bA1jvQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB4Ne16d+b0A-H6gGAQ-1VzRKcd5144x9HHOMDE+bA1jvQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <003801ccf956$572ecb90$058c62b0$@att.net>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Keith Henson
Subject: [ExI] Wireless technology jump.

>...http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/120803-vortex-radio-waves-could-boost
-wireless-capacity-infinitely


...There are several entries by the professor who invented this trick in the
comments along with pointers into peer reviewed papers.  Keith

_______________________________________________

Keith if this is true, it has enormous implications regarding sending power
down from orbit.  For the same reasons you can stack signals on the same
frequency, it looks to me like we could stack power to a rectenna on the
same frequency.

spike



From spike66 at att.net  Sat Mar  3 16:21:13 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2012 08:21:13 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Human Testing
In-Reply-To: <20120304024801.667ad800@jarrah>
References: <CAPoR7a77AF6OjBgevwpZD_4J7RWD4L4y0=MxnBH0pBbwLTkTAA@mail.gmail.com>	<002c01ccf94b$65af9150$310eb3f0$@att.net>
	<20120304024801.667ad800@jarrah>
Message-ID: <004b01ccf959$a762b010$f6281030$@att.net>


>... On Behalf Of david
Subject: Re: [ExI] Human Testing

On Sat, 3 Mar 2012 06:39:10 -0800
"spike" <spike66 at att.net> wrote:



>>... If so, bexarotene might be a huge leap forward, for it is low cost (if
taken at reagent grade) and its side effects are probably mild in most
patients.   spike
 
>...It has been a long time since I seriously studied chemistry, but given
that the data sheets claim it to be "moderately soluble in ethanol (with
warming)" the reageant grade would seem to be a candidate for a simple
re-crystallization...Personally, this would be enough for oral medication,
but I would be a lot more wary if you are planning to inject it.  -David
_______________________________________________


Injection is out of the question, and recrystallization is probably
unnecessary for this application.

The signal one gets in studying a number of these kinds of molecules is that
several of them are thought to have beneficial effects on beta amyloids, but
in general they do not readily cross the blood brain barrier.  The challenge
then is to get that to happen.  If a particular molecule crosses one per
thousand in the bloodstream, and we figure out a chemical cousin with
similar beneficial effects that crosses ten per thousand, then it requires a
tenth the dose, meaning a tenth the harmful side effects.  The reason J147
was creating such excitement is that it is lipophilic and a more eager
barrier permeant.

I am struck by the feeling the researchers generally agree that J147, CLR01
and bexarotene probably have beneficial effects on the brain, but the
challenge is in getting the molecule to the site without poisoning the
patient.

spike




From spike66 at att.net  Sat Mar  3 16:39:03 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2012 08:39:03 -0800
Subject: [ExI] EP, lasers and power satellites
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB7963PWBMzF_Auq1Yrp9qErCiTAV5DXt5Ya1TaZX0QYcw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB7963PWBMzF_Auq1Yrp9qErCiTAV5DXt5Ya1TaZX0QYcw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <004c01ccf95c$252b3d80$6f81b880$@att.net>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Keith Henson

On Sat, Mar 3, 2012 at 5:00 AM,  Tim Halterman <timhalterman at gmail.com>
wrote:
...

>>... This reminds me of the star wars talk in the Reagan days.

>...Well, yes.  Things, particularly computers, have come a long way since
those days.  Did you read the article on what the software is being used for
now?  Keith

_______________________________________________

Not just software but also hardware Keith.  We developed brilliant pebbles
in the 80s with the notion of having a bunch of them in orbit, ready to hit
nuclear missiles on the way up.  The notion of having all that stuff in
orbit turned out to be impractical and unnecessary, as well as politically
imprudent.  The brilliant pebbles were put on the tips of ground based
missiles known today as THAAD.  Now the notion is that THAAD missiles would
hit incoming re-entry bodies at the edge of the atmosphere.  I expect all
the money spent on star wars research to be made back several times over,
when every little country wants THAAD missiles, for they can buy a quiver
full of those for the cost of a single offensive nuke.  

As the number of nations with nuclear missiles proliferates, we transition
from the no-longer-practical notion of mutual assured destruction to the
more comfortable and far cheaper era of mutual assured survival.  As more
nations get THAAD, it becomes pointless for nations to develop nuclear
missiles, sooo...  We take them apart and make power plants out of the
now-useless warheads.  

Along with this is the delightful mutual assured making a buttload of money
for controls engineers.  Then warfare transitions once again, to nations
attacking each other by sending viruses to infest the other guy's computers.
Deal!

spike  



From atymes at gmail.com  Sat Mar  3 17:26:15 2012
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2012 09:26:15 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Jaw-dropping CWRU Alzheimer's breakthrough?
In-Reply-To: <003001ccf94d$d83f3200$88bd9600$@att.net>
References: <mailman.466.1330314863.825.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<1330346071.48236.YahooMailNeo@web132106.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
	<00f101ccf565$40f7deb0$c2e79c10$@att.net>
	<CAPy8RwbyZWVURXyni9gaT+PcpzqL94u2aJ9nAMzo_GpPs-7q-w@mail.gmail.com>
	<4F51604C.20000@mac.com> <00ca01ccf8f4$aca75d60$05f61820$@att.net>
	<003001ccf94d$d83f3200$88bd9600$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNRpPNckR43-gBYNj77YNbDzbH3D+ErasDxSb5BaHYGFHQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Mar 3, 2012 at 6:56 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> I perceive a massive sea-change in the medical establishment brought about
> by the informed and empowered patient.

I point to the many volumes written on the classic problems with
self-medication - even when conducted by doctors, as informed as
average patients can be today.

> Medical researchers no longer have a stranglehold on information.

Is not the empowered patient you describe, conducting medical research?
It's a new type, new set of motivations and circumstances, but it's the same
activity.


From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Sat Mar  3 17:33:53 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2012 18:33:53 +0100
Subject: [ExI] EP, lasers and power satellites
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB7963PWBMzF_Auq1Yrp9qErCiTAV5DXt5Ya1TaZX0QYcw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB7963PWBMzF_Auq1Yrp9qErCiTAV5DXt5Ya1TaZX0QYcw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a6Ux=QOAWsCzftNQmJ6OCEfAJOUWp6ja7r573yQ5QB6qA@mail.gmail.com>

On 3 March 2012 17:03, Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> wrote:
> If it comes down to building laser propulsion to solve the
> energy/carbon problems or several billion people starving and dying in
> resource wars, which do you pick?

Let me think...

I would go for the laser. Hey, I *love* light beams... :-)

-- 
Stefano Vaj


From atymes at gmail.com  Sat Mar  3 17:44:12 2012
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2012 09:44:12 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Human Testing
In-Reply-To: <002c01ccf94b$65af9150$310eb3f0$@att.net>
References: <CAPoR7a77AF6OjBgevwpZD_4J7RWD4L4y0=MxnBH0pBbwLTkTAA@mail.gmail.com>
	<002c01ccf94b$65af9150$310eb3f0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNQd4amSkT5HekJjiATPajYp6i8Sx9gxK0Lw+miVu4BWww@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Mar 3, 2012 at 6:39 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> For a double blind test to be done correctly, the placebo patients must be
> chosen randomly. ?There is no way for the researchers to give the real meds
> to those who have a ton of money for instance, for that could (and probably
> would) skew the results. ?They can't pick the smartest patients for real
> meds either. ?The doctors would not know which patients were being given the
> real meds.

I'm looking forward to the rise of disposable test organs, where you can
try out a drug on some thing that's exactly like a whatever-you're-treating,
without the mess (ethical and otherwise) of bringing in a whole person to
test it on.

Of course, there will be issues of accuracy of the test organ, especially
at first - just like there are with animal tests, as models for humans.  But
those will likely be figured out over time.  And you can more closely
inspect the progress of the drug with a test organ - mounted in a life
support system designed for observability - than you can inside an animal.



From atymes at gmail.com  Sat Mar  3 17:20:30 2012
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2012 09:20:30 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Wireless technology jump.
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB4Ne16d+b0A-H6gGAQ-1VzRKcd5144x9HHOMDE+bA1jvQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB4Ne16d+b0A-H6gGAQ-1VzRKcd5144x9HHOMDE+bA1jvQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNTKXAxYjwZQ84da-2R6o9PY7=uaJ7aVUAqDiLdA+q425Q@mail.gmail.com>

Checking the paper behind it...there was some crosstalk/overlap at some point -
see http://ej.iop.org/images/1367-2630/14/3/033001/Full/nj400111f2_online.jpg -
so I'm not sure if "potentially infinite" is justified here.  But even
if it merely
doubles or triples the bandwidth available, that's still quite an advancement.

On Sat, Mar 3, 2012 at 7:34 AM, Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> wrote:
> http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/120803-vortex-radio-waves-could-boost-wireless-capacity-infinitely
>
> "It is hard to put into words just how significant Thide?s discovery
> could be. If the vortex preserves other aspects of wireless
> communications, such as multiplexing, then in the short term we could
> be looking at a wireless spectrum that can carry 10 or 20 times as
> much data. In the long term, as our understanding of orbital angular
> momentum grows, our wireless spectrum could effectively be infinite.
> To be honest, this is such a huge twist for wireless communications
> that the full repercussions are not yet known."
>
> There are several entries by the professor who invented this trick in
> the comments along with pointers into peer reviewed papers.
>
> Keith
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat



From eugen at leitl.org  Sat Mar  3 17:59:57 2012
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2012 18:59:57 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Farming
In-Reply-To: <CAOJFdb+WqWFMBf=zsZXQCF7FbgG0xtdVGDKBAOTLYZcxC1FFXw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB4NBEYPng-PgXtFQWArju_TH+gOtggu7q6=V7ErvKh+PQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAOJFdbJQ6-SXocgQyLonxNdk8zgb1mdtsSrQRB9uqUzFLVAJ4A@mail.gmail.com>
	<CADDVf2JYWOvbz3ze3sGJ7-TFd_RQGJL3M-fNmVzfmCEQA9hJxg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAOJFdb+WqWFMBf=zsZXQCF7FbgG0xtdVGDKBAOTLYZcxC1FFXw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120303175957.GN7343@leitl.org>

On Fri, Mar 02, 2012 at 12:19:45PM -0500, Mike Dougherty wrote:

> I pretty sure it wouldn't take very long without supplies for polite
> society to turn very ugly.

There are plenty of desert communities in the middle of nowhere which
require a steady flow of water, energy and supplies to keep them going.

Particularly in the US where the supply chain is tied to diesel, one
shudders to think what a long-term increase in diesel prices with 
intermittent spikes and shortages/rationing will do to these communities
which are already teetering on the brink. 

Here's hoping the new ghost towns will not be populated with too many
actual ghosts. You can consider that LA riots where just a dry run.


From eugen at leitl.org  Sat Mar  3 18:09:24 2012
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2012 19:09:24 +0100
Subject: [ExI] EP, lasers and power satellites
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB7963PWBMzF_Auq1Yrp9qErCiTAV5DXt5Ya1TaZX0QYcw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB7963PWBMzF_Auq1Yrp9qErCiTAV5DXt5Ya1TaZX0QYcw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120303180924.GR7343@leitl.org>

On Sat, Mar 03, 2012 at 09:03:37AM -0700, Keith Henson wrote:

> If it comes down to building laser propulsion to solve the
> energy/carbon problems or several billion people starving and dying in
> resource wars, which do you pick?

But we don't need to build laser propulsion. We need to engage
a concerted program of actions *immediately*. If successful, we
wil have completed the conversion to a sustainable society by
2050 latest. We will have plenty of time then.

I'm sorry, but this power-pie-in-the-sky thing is. Not. Helping. 


From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Sat Mar  3 18:13:59 2012
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2012 13:13:59 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Jaw-dropping CWRU Alzheimer's breakthrough?
In-Reply-To: <003401ccf951$3bb77dd0$b3267970$@att.net>
References: <mailman.466.1330314863.825.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<1330346071.48236.YahooMailNeo@web132106.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
	<00f101ccf565$40f7deb0$c2e79c10$@att.net>
	<CAPy8RwbyZWVURXyni9gaT+PcpzqL94u2aJ9nAMzo_GpPs-7q-w@mail.gmail.com>
	<4F51604C.20000@mac.com> <00ca01ccf8f4$aca75d60$05f61820$@att.net>
	<003401ccf951$3bb77dd0$b3267970$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAAc1gFjgL9sMrSHvFxfjuGkC9HZhTuDz_f8p266c1YMrWZAHEQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Mar 3, 2012 at 10:20 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

>
> I just stumbled across a paper that shows John was onto the beneficial
> effects of curcumin at least three years ago:
>
> http://accelerating.org/articles/curcumin.html
>
> He even mentions the possible benefits to AD patients in that article.
>
> Note that the Salk Institute created J147 as a chemical one-off of curcumin
> extract, and bexarotene is very similar to Salk's J147, and UCLA's custom
> molecule CLR01:

### This is interesting - curcumin is believed to be a mitochondrial
uncoupler (its antioxidant effect is just a side effect of this
mechanism). If bexarotene is also an uncoupler, this would explain its
efficacy against cancer cells which are generally susceptible to
uncoupling. There are some theoretical reasons to believe that
uncouplers may have beneficial effects on certain mitochondrial
diseases like AD or PD, as long as the doses are carefully controlled.
A drug that fixes mitochondrial dysfunction in AD is likely to
dissipate amyloid as a side effect.

So, maybe bexarotene could be useful in AD - but, as I mentioned
before, the mouse study is only the flimsiest sliver of evidence.
Definitely not worth spending 1200$ a month just in case it works a
little bit.

Rafal


From spike66 at att.net  Sat Mar  3 20:02:01 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2012 12:02:01 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Jaw-dropping CWRU Alzheimer's breakthrough?
In-Reply-To: <CAAc1gFjgL9sMrSHvFxfjuGkC9HZhTuDz_f8p266c1YMrWZAHEQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.466.1330314863.825.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>	<1330346071.48236.YahooMailNeo@web132106.mail.ird.yahoo.com>	<00f101ccf565$40f7deb0$c2e79c10$@att.net>	<CAPy8RwbyZWVURXyni9gaT+PcpzqL94u2aJ9nAMzo_GpPs-7q-w@mail.gmail.com>	<4F51604C.20000@mac.com>
	<00ca01ccf8f4$aca75d60$05f61820$@att.net>	<003401ccf951$3bb77dd0$b3267970$@att.net>
	<CAAc1gFjgL9sMrSHvFxfjuGkC9HZhTuDz_f8p266c1YMrWZAHEQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <007c01ccf978$80167950$80436bf0$@att.net>


>... On Behalf Of Rafal Smigrodzki
...
>
> Note that the Salk Institute created J147 as a chemical one-off of 
> curcumin extract, and bexarotene is very similar to Salk's J147, and 
> UCLA's custom molecule CLR01:

### This is interesting - curcumin is believed to be a mitochondrial
uncoupler (its antioxidant effect is just a side effect of this mechanism).
If bexarotene is also an uncoupler, this would explain its efficacy against
cancer cells which are generally susceptible to uncoupling. There are some
theoretical reasons to believe that uncouplers may have beneficial effects
on certain mitochondrial diseases like AD or PD, as long as the doses are
carefully controlled.
A drug that fixes mitochondrial dysfunction in AD is likely to dissipate
amyloid as a side effect.

So, maybe bexarotene could be useful in AD - but, as I mentioned before, the
mouse study is only the flimsiest sliver of evidence.
Definitely not worth spending 1200$ a month just in case it works a little
bit.

Rafal
_______________________________________________

Thanks Rafal!  What if it didn't cost 1200 a month, but rather about 30
bucks a month?  If we decide to live with the risk of half a milligram of
unknown with each dose (probably all just nontoxic catalytic salts, quite
harmless in those doses) and let the stuff soak in ethanol to slay the
microbeasts, that seems like a reasonable risk to me.  Dissolving in alcohol
is also an ideal way to control dosage.  I know how to determine how much of
the bex dissolves per unit volume, and controlling by volume is waaay
eeeeasssy easy compared to measuring out milligram quantities, ja?  This is
an example of stuff I would be willing to take myself, even with no AD
symptoms.  I can do qualitative analysis on a sample to insure that half
milligram doesn't contain any heavy metals which might accumulate, lead or
mercury for instance.

Of course we would not encourage anyone to devour the stuff, oh dear no,
that would make it a medication or a dietary supplement, in which case we
would be so deeply buried in laws it would take a postcard a month to get to
us.  This would be for, you know, like, washing your hands and such.



From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Sat Mar  3 21:40:27 2012
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2012 13:40:27 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ExI] EP, lasers and power satellites
References: <CAPiwVB7963PWBMzF_Auq1Yrp9qErCiTAV5DXt5Ya1TaZX0QYcw@mail.gmail.com>
	<004c01ccf95c$252b3d80$6f81b880$@att.net> 
Message-ID: <1330810827.68903.YahooMailNeo@web164504.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>


----- Original Message -----
> From: spike <spike66 at att.net>
> To: 'ExI chat list' <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Cc: 
> Sent: Saturday, March 3, 2012 8:39 AM
> Subject: Re: [ExI] EP, lasers and power satellites


> As the number of nations with nuclear missiles proliferates, we transition
> from the no-longer-practical notion of mutual assured destruction to the
> more comfortable and far cheaper era of mutual assured survival.? As more
> nations get THAAD, it becomes pointless for nations to develop nuclear
> missiles, sooo...? We take them apart and make power plants out of the
> now-useless warheads.? 

Something tells me that era and this era were the same era: The era of caculated risk. Nothing is ever assured in life, not even death nor taxes, despite urban myth to the contrary.

> 
> Along with this is the delightful mutual assured making a buttload of money
> for controls engineers.? Then warfare transitions once again, to nations
> attacking each other by sending viruses to infest the other guy's computers.
> Deal!

You can't squeeze the fat future through the narrow now without crushing a?lot of?hopes. There will always be work for those who specialize in crushing hope.
?
Stuart LaForge


"The state that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards, and its fighting by fools." -Thucydides.




From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Sun Mar  4 18:06:21 2012
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2012 11:06:21 -0700
Subject: [ExI] EP, lasers and power satellites
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB6qT34AYWwvj0-Og0+--cOx0r0XPwgtBaqbzx9QeLY6Cw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Mar 4, 2012 at 5:00 AM,  Eugen Leitl <eugen at leitl.org> wrote:

> On Sat, Mar 03, 2012 at 09:03:37AM -0700, Keith Henson wrote:
>
>> If it comes down to building laser propulsion to solve the
>> energy/carbon problems or several billion people starving and dying in
>> resource wars, which do you pick?
>
> But we don't need to build laser propulsion. We need to engage
> a concerted program of actions *immediately*. If successful, we
> will have completed the conversion to a sustainable society by
> 2050 latest.

I have never understood completely how you would fix the problems, but
to the limited extent I do, they involve vast numbers of people
(nations) doing things you personally think would work in a
coordinated way.  That strikes me as an exceedingly remote
possibility.  Laser propulsion isn't likely either but at least it is
something one country or even a private organization could do.  That's
a different order of probability.

> We will have plenty of time then.

Well, yes.  If we don't solve the energy problem well before 2050,
chances are most of the race will die of starvation or resource wars
by then.  (Assuming of course that people have not mostly uploaded
that is.)

> I'm sorry, but this power-pie-in-the-sky thing is. Not. Helping.

I am flexible.  Spent a couple of years working on StratoSolar before
it got too complex to continue.  Convince me that your solutions are
more likely to work.

Given human evolved-in-the-stone-age psychology that's going to be a
difficult task.

Keith


From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Sun Mar  4 19:27:56 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2012 20:27:56 +0100
Subject: [ExI] EP, lasers and power satellites
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB6qT34AYWwvj0-Og0+--cOx0r0XPwgtBaqbzx9QeLY6Cw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB6qT34AYWwvj0-Og0+--cOx0r0XPwgtBaqbzx9QeLY6Cw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a61UXqnEqGdAhrAmQOqySU9YB_DDLp4jDHgZwjTvkqLzg@mail.gmail.com>

On 4 March 2012 19:06, Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> wrote:

> Given human evolved-in-the-stone-age psychology that's going to be a
> difficult task.
>

This psychology has served us well as long as it was in place,  so I would
not be so prone to dismiss it out of hand.

If anything, I am more concerned about the fact that in comparison to the
stone age we are less and less  open to innovation and to large-scale
civilisational projects: see the introduction of cattle breeding,
agriculture, metallurgy, explorations, pyramids, sedentary communities...

What do we have now? "Rational" economic policies, inertia, and the
precautionary principle,

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Mon Mar  5 02:29:17 2012
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2012 18:29:17 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ExI] EP, lasers and power satellites
References: <CAPiwVB6qT34AYWwvj0-Og0+--cOx0r0XPwgtBaqbzx9QeLY6Cw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPoR7a61UXqnEqGdAhrAmQOqySU9YB_DDLp4jDHgZwjTvkqLzg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1330914557.79228.YahooMailNeo@web164504.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

>
>On 4 March 2012 19:06, Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>Given human evolved-in-the-stone-age psychology that's going to be a
>>difficult task.
>>
>
>This psychology has served us well as long as it was in place,? so I would not be so prone to dismiss it out of hand.

It can only be dismissed in any circumstance to ones misfortune. The first rule of?survival is work with what you got. And frankly?what you got?are lords and ladies?of the apes?attempting to?fight, pray, and hump their way to paradise.?
?
>If anything, I am more concerned about the fact that in comparison to the stone age we are less and less? open to innovation and to large-scale civilisational projects: see the introduction of cattle breeding, agriculture, metallurgy, explorations, pyramids, sedentary communities...

Yes. Technological innovation?has?historically progressed in the long term much like a driven oscillator. Civilizations rising and falling with each successive civilization pushing the technological bar up higher and higher. There is a critical amplitude of oscillation called the singularity. The question is whether civilization will gel into the singularity on this oscillation or the next. If we achieve singularity, it would be like a like a socioeconomic phase-change or quantum leap to a different energy orbital. Post-singularity humanity will find itself in a whole new wide-open world of bioeconomic niches that I can't quite see.?
?
>What do we have now? "Rational" economic policies, inertia, and the precautionary principle,

What we have is relative peace, Stefano. Historically, peace is a stalemate in?the?tug of war of an ever increasing number of?humans, corporations, national, and local governments all pulling on an N-dimensional rope. When that rope shifts a little for any reason, it is called a political victory for somebody. When that rope shifts?a lot, it is called?war and nation-states,?or empires?are being?built?or broken.
?
?
Stuart LaForge


"The state that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards, and its fighting by fools." -Thucydides.




From eugen at leitl.org  Mon Mar  5 04:15:57 2012
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2012 05:15:57 +0100
Subject: [ExI] EP, lasers and power satellites
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB6qT34AYWwvj0-Og0+--cOx0r0XPwgtBaqbzx9QeLY6Cw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB6qT34AYWwvj0-Og0+--cOx0r0XPwgtBaqbzx9QeLY6Cw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120305041557.GP7343@leitl.org>

On Sun, Mar 04, 2012 at 11:06:21AM -0700, Keith Henson wrote:

> I have never understood completely how you would fix the problems, but

The two most critical areas are energy and food. Fixing energy
is necessary but not sufficient for securing food sustainability.
The third critical issue is sustainable resource base, but it's
not biting yet.

> to the limited extent I do, they involve vast numbers of people
> (nations) doing things you personally think would work in a
> coordinated way.  That strikes me as an exceedingly remote

Yes, the basic issue of progress. The same thing we've been doing
for a couple centuries. It obviously has been working sufficiently.

> possibility.  Laser propulsion isn't likely either but at least it is
> something one country or even a private organization could do.  That's
> a different order of probability.

Radiant energy propulsion (which is essential for space access and
will be coming eventually) by itself buys you only some high ground.
It turns out high ground and storage are not relevant at the moment.

What is relevant at the moment is mass production of thin-film PV and
grid-tied inverters, upgrade of the grid, increasing electrification
to substitute for hydrocarbons where feasible, and building up synfuel
capability. These are ~TUSD/year investments, for the duration of
half a century. 
 
> > We will have plenty of time then.
> 
> Well, yes.  If we don't solve the energy problem well before 2050,
> chances are most of the race will die of starvation or resource wars
> by then.  (Assuming of course that people have not mostly uploaded
> that is.)

We'd be lucky to have a large mammal upload by 2050. It's not going
to happen until there's a lot of money spent on it -- Markram is having
trouble raising a GUSD. Neuroscience guys are not used to Big Science
budgets, and think their budget is zero sum.
 
> > I'm sorry, but this power-pie-in-the-sky thing is. Not. Helping.
> 
> I am flexible.  Spent a couple of years working on StratoSolar before
> it got too complex to continue.  Convince me that your solutions are
> more likely to work.

We're seeing them working in Germany. The issue is that it's not
nearly enough in Germany, and the rest of the planet are dragging
their feet.
 
> Given human evolved-in-the-stone-age psychology that's going to be a
> difficult task.

We may well be truly fucked, but I think it's too early to tell.

I genuinely hope that deployment will pick up speed as people will
be facing first serious shortages, and the connection between these
and energy hunger becomes apparent. People may be stupid collectively,
but they can execute if there's a consensus. The question is how late
it will be by then, and whether depopulation will get bad enough for 
wars sufficiently disruptive to shut down everything. 


From eugen at leitl.org  Mon Mar  5 04:22:51 2012
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2012 05:22:51 +0100
Subject: [ExI] EP, lasers and power satellites
In-Reply-To: <CAPoR7a61UXqnEqGdAhrAmQOqySU9YB_DDLp4jDHgZwjTvkqLzg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB6qT34AYWwvj0-Og0+--cOx0r0XPwgtBaqbzx9QeLY6Cw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPoR7a61UXqnEqGdAhrAmQOqySU9YB_DDLp4jDHgZwjTvkqLzg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120305042251.GV7343@leitl.org>

On Sun, Mar 04, 2012 at 08:27:56PM +0100, Stefano Vaj wrote:

> What do we have now? "Rational" economic policies, inertia, and the
> precautionary principle,

Do an informal tally of people in a certain radius from you are doing,
and how much of it is actually productive, considering the energy and
material flow to sustain them. Frightening, isn't it?


From kellycoinguy at gmail.com  Mon Mar  5 05:21:22 2012
From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2012 22:21:22 -0700
Subject: [ExI] EP, lasers and power satellites
In-Reply-To: <004c01ccf95c$252b3d80$6f81b880$@att.net>
References: <CAPiwVB7963PWBMzF_Auq1Yrp9qErCiTAV5DXt5Ya1TaZX0QYcw@mail.gmail.com>
	<004c01ccf95c$252b3d80$6f81b880$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAPy8RwZ2872dE3xtSXstfXFsBF1MAUdA42R2Q1Y1+qLr5VJv6g@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Mar 3, 2012 at 9:39 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> As the number of nations with nuclear missiles proliferates, we transition
> from the no-longer-practical notion of mutual assured destruction to the
> more comfortable and far cheaper era of mutual assured survival.

It would be easier today to get a nuke in on the ground/under the
water than in the air... we aren't safe from nukes if people are
willing to walk/drive/submarine them in... This is one reason that the
border patrol is so important.

I have had a prediction on the table for over a decade that the first
US city to be hit by a nuclear bomb will be San Diego... and I also
predict that it will happen before 2025. (When this comes true, I'll
look like a genius or a terrorist... I truly hope I'm wrong about this
one folks. I don't need the NSA beating down my door.) I have a fair
bit of reasoning behind this prediction, but I won't go through the
basis of my prediction at this point.

-Kelly


From kellycoinguy at gmail.com  Mon Mar  5 05:15:14 2012
From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2012 22:15:14 -0700
Subject: [ExI] EP, lasers and power satellites
In-Reply-To: <CAMSRAW6D0frFtVn0eVCUX3nrv_4v1eJw8LTHdahi+QYp6ch_0w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB4JW6QYENSBb9zD5s6534hgtU1TZX+MKhB_biVNEP06jQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAMSRAW6D0frFtVn0eVCUX3nrv_4v1eJw8LTHdahi+QYp6ch_0w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPy8Rwb94rvnD33rErBGtOTE2G7wpU+u3PmCG836PMsWBaVGCQ@mail.gmail.com>

2012/3/2 Tim Halterman <timhalterman at gmail.com>:
> Do we need
> defense satellites for defense satellites?

No, you should be able to put in a separate system inside each
satellite that would enable it to self destruct (perhaps in a way that
could be repaired with a space walk, but not from the ground.) on
command. Then, even if the system is hijacked, you just turn the thing
off. Permanently, until the next space walk or whatever. Smart people
can figure this part out.

> This reminds me of the star wars
> talk in the Reagan days.

Ah yes, the good old days. By the way, it did work, it just took a
little longer than Reagan wanted.

-Kelly


From kellycoinguy at gmail.com  Mon Mar  5 09:50:43 2012
From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2012 02:50:43 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Farming
In-Reply-To: <20120303175957.GN7343@leitl.org>
References: <CAPiwVB4NBEYPng-PgXtFQWArju_TH+gOtggu7q6=V7ErvKh+PQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAOJFdbJQ6-SXocgQyLonxNdk8zgb1mdtsSrQRB9uqUzFLVAJ4A@mail.gmail.com>
	<CADDVf2JYWOvbz3ze3sGJ7-TFd_RQGJL3M-fNmVzfmCEQA9hJxg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAOJFdb+WqWFMBf=zsZXQCF7FbgG0xtdVGDKBAOTLYZcxC1FFXw@mail.gmail.com>
	<20120303175957.GN7343@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <CAPy8Rwapa5-fgX6XgUYGEMCtGET=2XQxN9zu4fr7ifC+QsVHFw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Mar 3, 2012 at 10:59 AM, Eugen Leitl <eugen at leitl.org> wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 02, 2012 at 12:19:45PM -0500, Mike Dougherty wrote:
>
>> I pretty sure it wouldn't take very long without supplies for polite
>> society to turn very ugly.
>
> There are plenty of desert communities in the middle of nowhere which
> require a steady flow of water, energy and supplies to keep them going.
>
> Particularly in the US where the supply chain is tied to diesel, one
> shudders to think what a long-term increase in diesel prices with
> intermittent spikes and shortages/rationing will do to these communities
> which are already teetering on the brink.
>
> Here's hoping the new ghost towns will not be populated with too many
> actual ghosts. You can consider that LA riots where just a dry run.

I have a bit of a survivalist bent... not TOO far off the deep end...
I tried living off the [electric] grid for about 5 years, and what I
discovered is that it is very difficult to get completely off the
[entire] grid. I still needed gasoline, eventually food from
elsewhere... no man is an island... and it is very expensive to live
in such a way as to avoid the problems of society melting down. If and
when it all goes to hell, it's going to be a very bad day in LA. I'm
better off where I am here in Utah, but now that I've moved into the
city, it's still going to be very difficult. The only thing I have
going for me is that I grew up with gardens and agriculture (I once
worked as a migrant farm laborer), as did many of my neighbors... so
we might be able to just make it, except that the hungry crowds from
LA would just have to be eaten as they migrated up here, or they would
ruin the scenery completely. The waves of immigrants from California
are hard enough to deal with now and society is only melting around
the edges at this point.

-Kelly


From kellycoinguy at gmail.com  Mon Mar  5 09:57:02 2012
From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2012 02:57:02 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Wireless technology jump.
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB4Ne16d+b0A-H6gGAQ-1VzRKcd5144x9HHOMDE+bA1jvQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB4Ne16d+b0A-H6gGAQ-1VzRKcd5144x9HHOMDE+bA1jvQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPy8RwYbGEfaYx09zPR-+veffUqJszJ5CW6wzjtohPhCahukBA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Mar 3, 2012 at 8:34 AM, Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> wrote:
> http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/120803-vortex-radio-waves-could-boost-wireless-capacity-infinitely
>
> "It is hard to put into words just how significant Thide?s discovery
> could be. If the vortex preserves other aspects of wireless
> communications, such as multiplexing, then in the short term we could
> be looking at a wireless spectrum that can carry 10 or 20 times as
> much data. In the long term, as our understanding of orbital angular
> momentum grows, our wireless spectrum could effectively be infinite.
> To be honest, this is such a huge twist for wireless communications
> that the full repercussions are not yet known."
>
> There are several entries by the professor who invented this trick in
> the comments along with pointers into peer reviewed papers.

Apparently, the Italians are pretty good at this radio stuff... :-)

I hope this turns out to be useful, we sure could use a lot more
bandwidth. I am suspicious of anyone selling "infinite" solutions,
however... that sounds like a bit of hype.

-Kelly



From scerir at alice.it  Mon Mar  5 22:21:56 2012
From: scerir at alice.it (scerir)
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2012 23:21:56 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Wireless technology jump.
In-Reply-To: <CAPy8RwYbGEfaYx09zPR-+veffUqJszJ5CW6wzjtohPhCahukBA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB4Ne16d+b0A-H6gGAQ-1VzRKcd5144x9HHOMDE+bA1jvQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPy8RwYbGEfaYx09zPR-+veffUqJszJ5CW6wzjtohPhCahukBA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8BCF3ACE3DA846258870CDDE91E9310C@PCserafino>

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/03/120302083011.htm



From kellycoinguy at gmail.com  Tue Mar  6 05:30:31 2012
From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2012 22:30:31 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Doomsday Oil Price: (was RIP: Peak Oil)
In-Reply-To: <20120229112356.GB7343@leitl.org>
References: <1330122650.78329.YahooMailNeo@web164502.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<CALAdGNSK_WdsxcEgexwQ=qw+DQYJ2XP7PekJyWD=ky_G9Br1rg@mail.gmail.com>
	<1330201603.28318.YahooMailNeo@web164506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<CALAdGNS8p-_cqR5vRoqGV1YA336fRmGBxq_X+M0=qH0Q0HjMAg@mail.gmail.com>
	<00da01ccf414$666c2b30$33448190$@att.net>
	<CALAdGNSws9mgiYM46Q9-V-EF4R17kuKFQzdtWt5m9FLP+nyhTQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<1330380003.19357.YahooMailNeo@web164503.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<20120228072720.GR7343@leitl.org> <4F4D34CB.9050006@libero.it>
	<CAPy8RwbpQN5+YLh_ZNcdr=VBFRa=QTVuFv-MvjPPquAM-oqVww@mail.gmail.com>
	<20120229112356.GB7343@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <CAPy8RwYE8r8mhsuueQi77U8Jw3PFsXbiyu9kEdNdj2kwCSiXtw@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Feb 29, 2012 at 4:23 AM, Eugen Leitl <eugen at leitl.org> wrote:
> On Wed, Feb 29, 2012 at 12:39:37AM -0700, Kelly Anderson wrote:
>> Solar is VERY expensive on a per house retrofit basis. And that is how
>
> FWIW, some 40% of new German installations by power are small and
> invidually owned. It's about over half if you consider the farmers.

The only reason you have this in Germany is because of the government
subsidies. I have read some reports that indicate that all the PV
installed there is actually counter productive, when you consider that
current PV panels have an effective life of around 15 years. Of
course, if the rest of the system, inverters and so forth have a
longer life span, it may well pay off. The worst part of all of these
systems is the batteries, which die after only around 3-4 years in
most cases. Dead batteries put my former system into a completely
useless state for nearly a year.

>> it is normally approached in the USA. Medium sized 200-500 household
>> installations is an entirely different animal, and that's going to be
>> competitive in the next decade.
>
> Germany is at 20% renewable now, but it's only electricity.
> Too little too late. If US thinks they can wait, well, consider
> the outcome if that assumption is wrong.

I'd much rather be the US than Germany economically right now. Greece
and friends are dragging you down pretty heavy, and that's not pretty.
Solar or lack of it is the least of the problems Europe has at the
moment... at least according to the media reports I've heard.

>> >> it is certainly less expensive than new nuclear,
>> >
>> > If you make the solar jump in the loops as you do with new nuclear
>> > plants it would be much more expensive than new nuclear.
>
> Er. New nuclear is expensive because of safety requirements.
> Obviously PV panels don't have corium as main failure mode and
> millions of pipe welds to control.

Nuclear is expensive because it is caught between brain dead engineers
that think they need to design each plant from scratch, and brain dead
tree huggers on the other side that think it's dangerous, when it
clearly is not statistically, even when you take Chernobyl and
Fukashima into account. Yet people think bears are dangerous when they
kill relatively few people too... it's part of the human psychology to
be afraid of a strange form of death more than a familiar form of
death.

>> Nuclear won't work because of the tree huggers. It's DOA, despite
>> being highly reasonable technology.
>
> The only reasonable technology is a sustainable one. To qualify
> as borderline sustainable nuclear needs breeders, and breeders (whatever
> fuel cycle) are the most expensive and unsafe power sources known
> to man, and they breed pitifully to boot. If you don't have breeders, and
> ramp up you'll get peak uranium before 2040. That means we don't
> have to bother, as these will probably never EROEI nor ROI.
>
>> > Do any foundry use solar for producing aluminium or steel or whatever?
>
> Of course.
>
>> > At what costs?
>>
>> A lot of aluminum is smelted near large hydroelectric dams. The TVA
>
> Geothermal in Iceland produces very cheap and plentiful power, but
> Hulduf?lk (and Sigur Ros) hate aluminium plants.

Too bad, it would be a great place to do aluminum.

>> dams were originally built to this purpose. If hydroelectric isn't
>> solar, what is... ;-)
>>
>> >> Solar PV will be cheaper than dirty coal in less than 10 years, at
>> >> which point the whole debate will look very silly in the retrospect.
>> >
>> > In the next ten years is not now.
>>
>> We don't have a huge problem right now. If we did, we would have $15 a
>> gallon gasoline.
>
> We have 1.70 EUR/l at the moment, FWIW.

I have never truly understood why gasoline is so much more expensive
in Europe than in the US. I always assumed that it was because the
European governments were screwing up the free market or taxing the
hell out of it, but I don't know if that's the case or not. Maybe the
US government subsidizes the prices here somehow to keep them
artificially low. I don't understand that part. Wish I did.

>> > If wishes were horses we would be endangered by their manure.
>> > When, in ten years, PV will produce power at rates lower or comparable
>> > with dirty coal or dirty nuclear we will see. In the interim, it is not
>> > true.
>> >
>> > If I'm in high water, being able to swim the next week will not prevent
>> > me from drowning now.
>>
>> Who is drowning now? I bought gasoline today. It was reasonably
>> priced. It's all hyped up for political reasons. Do we need a national
>
> Increasing inability to meet demand at declining EROEI are hardly
> political reasons. Given lack of electrified rail in many locations
> in the world one is looking forward to LA riot level of disruption when
> there's not just price ballistically penetrating the ceiling, but also
> actual rationing.

I just don't see it happening without a huge blow up in Iran or equivalent.

>> energy policy? You bet. Let's stop subsidizing the oil industry. Other
>> than that, let's just let the market work.a
>
> Markets don't work in areas like long-term planning (30-40 years) or
> public infrastructure. I don't know why people hate on FiTs, we wouldn't
> have these cheap PV panels if Germany hadn't kickstart the market
> single-handedly. Now the work's done.

Do we really need to plan 30 years ahead in energy? What would that
long term a plan even look like? What would it even say? Let's find
more oil? Let's hope Moore's Law applies to solar panels? what? I
really think that the Germans did a bit of service to man kind with
their solar government subsidies, but I don't think it worked real
well for Germany. Just like the US going into Afghanistan might have
helped some people, but at a big cost to America. Not sure it was
worth it to us, but maybe it was worth it for the Afghan people? Only
time will tell for sure. This global international relations stuff is
hard. Very complicated. Perhaps the most complicated system on earth,
if you include the economics of it all.

-Kelly



From kellycoinguy at gmail.com  Tue Mar  6 15:35:33 2012
From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 08:35:33 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Wireless technology jump.
In-Reply-To: <8BCF3ACE3DA846258870CDDE91E9310C@PCserafino>
References: <CAPiwVB4Ne16d+b0A-H6gGAQ-1VzRKcd5144x9HHOMDE+bA1jvQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPy8RwYbGEfaYx09zPR-+veffUqJszJ5CW6wzjtohPhCahukBA@mail.gmail.com>
	<8BCF3ACE3DA846258870CDDE91E9310C@PCserafino>
Message-ID: <CAPy8RwbVZ13xOaFBLdBV0K18c=e9GD4YdyUT_2M_g1ezXuT=jw@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 3:21 PM, scerir <scerir at alice.it> wrote:
> http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/03/120302083011.htm

The possible application to astronomy is an interesting twist... ;-)

-Kelly


From rtomek at ceti.pl  Tue Mar  6 19:08:32 2012
From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola)
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 20:08:32 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [ExI] Doomsday Oil Price: (was RIP: Peak Oil)
In-Reply-To: <CAPy8RwYE8r8mhsuueQi77U8Jw3PFsXbiyu9kEdNdj2kwCSiXtw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1330122650.78329.YahooMailNeo@web164502.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<CALAdGNSK_WdsxcEgexwQ=qw+DQYJ2XP7PekJyWD=ky_G9Br1rg@mail.gmail.com>
	<1330201603.28318.YahooMailNeo@web164506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<CALAdGNS8p-_cqR5vRoqGV1YA336fRmGBxq_X+M0=qH0Q0HjMAg@mail.gmail.com>
	<00da01ccf414$666c2b30$33448190$@att.net>
	<CALAdGNSws9mgiYM46Q9-V-EF4R17kuKFQzdtWt5m9FLP+nyhTQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<1330380003.19357.YahooMailNeo@web164503.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<20120228072720.GR7343@leitl.org> <4F4D34CB.9050006@libero.it>
	<CAPy8RwbpQN5+YLh_ZNcdr=VBFRa=QTVuFv-MvjPPquAM-oqVww@mail.gmail.com>
	<20120229112356.GB7343@leitl.org>
	<CAPy8RwYE8r8mhsuueQi77U8Jw3PFsXbiyu9kEdNdj2kwCSiXtw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1203061903190.24482@tau.ceti.pl>

On Mon, 5 Mar 2012, Kelly Anderson wrote:

> I'd much rather be the US than Germany economically right now. Greece
> and friends are dragging you down pretty heavy, and that's not pretty.
> Solar or lack of it is the least of the problems Europe has at the
> moment... at least according to the media reports I've heard.

If we are at it, links, please? I am just interested, not challenging your 
POV.

> >> >> it is certainly less expensive than new nuclear,
> >> >
> >> > If you make the solar jump in the loops as you do with new nuclear
> >> > plants it would be much more expensive than new nuclear.
> >
> > Er. New nuclear is expensive because of safety requirements.
> > Obviously PV panels don't have corium as main failure mode and
> > millions of pipe welds to control.
> 
> Nuclear is expensive because it is caught between brain dead engineers
> that think they need to design each plant from scratch, and brain dead
> tree huggers on the other side that think it's dangerous, when it
> clearly is not statistically, even when you take Chernobyl and
> Fukashima into account. Yet people think bears are dangerous when they
> kill relatively few people too... it's part of the human psychology to
> be afraid of a strange form of death more than a familiar form of
> death.

There seem to be mixed reports (no time to analyse in depth) about coal 
power station producing quite some amounts of radioactivity - because coal 
is not pure, it contains lots of additional substances. Even if there is 
not radiation from coal burning, there is a lot of other stuff going into 
air, contributing to acid rains, smog etc etc.

But. A vision of fireplace full of burning wood, distributing nice heat in 
your room/house is so heart catching. Truly a coal power station is in the 
same league, and I would expect Snow White working there, too.

This was a moment when I realized tree huggers are emotion-driven. 
Unfortunately, I expect good decision making to be based on facts, 
emotions have some place but not much (eradicating emotions is not good, 
humans are not robots, yet humans who only know emotions are IMHO closer 
to animals than to rational beings).

Since that time, whenever I hear tree huggers oppose something, in my mind 
I add one point in favour of this thing, even before I start gathering 
facts to judge it.

Questions remain. Like, who gives those guys money. From what I've heard, 
western Greens had been backed by Red money, but Red is long dead now.

People are idiots but the money says truth.

[...]
> >> We don't have a huge problem right now. If we did, we would have $15 a
> >> gallon gasoline.
> >
> > We have 1.70 EUR/l at the moment, FWIW.
> 
> I have never truly understood why gasoline is so much more expensive
> in Europe than in the US. I always assumed that it was because the
> European governments were screwing up the free market or taxing the
> hell out of it, but I don't know if that's the case or not. Maybe the
> US government subsidizes the prices here somehow to keep them
> artificially low. I don't understand that part. Wish I did.

Oh, if you were a Pole, or (I guess) even better, a Russian, you would 
have had inborn understanding there is a theoretical economy (which says a 
lot about "better wins", or "mutual exchange of surplus goods") and a real 
economy, which is real.

I am used to see, in the same news, talk about oil prices going down on 
"world markets" and oil going up here in PL. The first reasonable thought 
I had after hearing we would be fraking shale gas was "ok, we are going to 
have our own gas, so how much the price will increase this time". Indeed, 
fraking is yet to start and we already had two increases, if memory serves 
me.

The real economy is not limited to old-style industry. Consider a 
software, for example, where a small business starts selling a half-baked 
software and goes into global domination, while at the same time kicking 
better alternatives out of the market. I could argue their soft is 
half-baked even now, but on the other hand, I admire those guys. Their 
understanding of reality is so good, I almost feel shivers on my back when 
I try to imagine it. Of course I stay away from their products, which 
doesn't diminish my fascination with their success.

[...]
> Do we really need to plan 30 years ahead in energy? What would that
> long term a plan even look like? What would it even say?

I guess it should start like this: "Those who don't plan their future will 
have none. Yes they may be alive, only spending their days in Ethernal 
Present, not remembering and not prospecting."

Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.      **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home    **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...      **
**                                                                 **
** Tomasz Rola          mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com             **


From kellycoinguy at gmail.com  Tue Mar  6 20:04:57 2012
From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 13:04:57 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Character Recognition (was Re:  AI milestones)
Message-ID: <CAPy8Rwb+k2qJMWxL=L6K-=c0BidTRDx6-j29RoMtUhaHUDHdBw@mail.gmail.com>

2012/3/2 Stefano Vaj <stefano.vaj at gmail.com>:
> On 1 March 2012 06:51, Kelly Anderson <kellycoinguy at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> There are commercial OCR engines that scan well over 99% accuracy for
>> typeset text...
>
>
> This is an impressive achievement, and sounds great, but let us keep in mind
> that 99% in OCR accuracy means more than one mistype each two lines, some of
> which cannot be resolved on the basis of the context alone.

I know. Approximately 80 characters per line. About ten of which are
spaces, means 99% recognition rate is unusable for many (though not
all) applications.

Little known fact, ?the title of Kelly Anderson's absolutely
fantastic, but never finished/published/defended, Master's Thesis was
"Character Recognition in the Context of Forms", so while I am
hopelessly out of date, last published paper in character recognition
was in SPIE in 1991 (or so)... this is an area that I am pretty
familiar with.

> I was once a testimonial, as a semi-famous lawyer, for IBM Voice Type
> Dictation, and the dictation system in comparison have the advantage of
> recognising not single phonemes, but basically entire words, and on the
> basis of the preceding and subsequent ones ("trigrammes"). OTOH, mistakes
> accordingly become harder to identify, especially if one does not so on the
> fly.

This might have been using Markov chains.. a really primitive kind of
limited context. When I say primitive, I mean simple to implement, not
ineffective. Any kind of context is absolutely critical to getting
good rates of character recognition and Markov chains is a good way to
easily put in a little context.

To see how this works, consider that in English, the letter Q is
nearly always followed by the letter U. Similarly, you can process a
large amount of typical text of the type you are processing... and
create a probability table for each letter digram in English. So the
Q->U entry in the table (Q followed by U) would contain a number like
97%, that is, this is much more likely than QA (Qadi, Qat, Qabala...)
and QW occurs only in the word Qwerty, and QK doesn't happen at all,
ever, in English. So the Q->K entry contains 0%.

With this information, I can now compute an additional probability
function that helps you to know if you are recognizing FORM, F0RM or
FQRM. So I don't need a full dictionary to know which word is probably
right. (+1 if you guessed FORM.) Markov chains can be computed
separately for the first two letters of English words, the last two
letters, and the middle of words probabilities for even more fine
control.

Now, the next level of context is a dictionary, but as anyone doing a
ReCapcha lately knows, there are a lot of words in old newspapers that
won't be in the typical dictionary. Especially proper names.

You can also do Markov chains for word pairs. You are very unlikely to
run into the word pair "

Above that, you have the context of grammar. Running a grammar checker
on recognized text to make sure it's good English would probably be
fairly effective on old newspapers. The incidence of grammar errors in
old New York Times is probably relatively low compared to general
text. See a grammar error, take it up to the next level. For example,
in Italian text recognition, you can check for gender agreement
between articles and the following text. Does every sentence have a
verb and a subject, for example.

The highest level of context for text is doing actual text
understanding. That is, trying to tell what the text means, and does
it make sense. And, would it make more sense if this word were
actually this other word... We do that all the time in processing
misspelled words. We know what they meant because of the high level of
redundancy in written English (or any human language).

We humans are very good at text recognition because of the context. If
you present humans with the text out of context, they do little better
than computers with no context. Give humans the context, and they are
much better than humans.

So, yes, context is critical to performant text recognition by
computers and people. You would not be a very good recognizer of hand
written Chinese, even though you are a human.

The recent discussions of Go, and the discussions of Watson last year,
as well as autonomous vehicles...  make me wonder if it isn't time to
bump text recognition up to the next level. I think it is very
possible. Someone is probably doing it.

In my master's thesis, I was recognizing numbers on 1040 forms. If the
numbers don't add up, then the probability that something was
misrecognized went up... and further processing was done. With the
right context, I got up to 100% accurate recognition of one field of
hand printed text. Granted, it was a special case. :-) But that's the
point.

-Kelly



From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Tue Mar  6 20:39:32 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 21:39:32 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Character Recognition (was Re: AI milestones)
In-Reply-To: <CAPy8Rwb+k2qJMWxL=L6K-=c0BidTRDx6-j29RoMtUhaHUDHdBw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPy8Rwb+k2qJMWxL=L6K-=c0BidTRDx6-j29RoMtUhaHUDHdBw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a50v_MBfx9KHZUfe4NqqSYFeCz3aqfn7Oah7PL-KO1qDw@mail.gmail.com>

On 6 March 2012 21:04, Kelly Anderson <kellycoinguy at gmail.com> wrote:

> This might have been using Markov chains.. a really primitive kind of
> limited context. When I say primitive, I mean simple to implement, not
> ineffective. Any kind of context is absolutely critical to getting
> good rates of character recognition and Markov chains is a good way to
> easily put in a little context.
>

Yes. This is still the case with computer dictation AFAIK.


> To see how this works, consider that in English, the letter Q is
> nearly always followed by the letter U.


The only exception, as for other matters, being Al Qaeda... :-)


> We humans are very good at text recognition because of the context. If
> you present humans with the text out of context, they do little better
> than computers with no context. Give humans the context, and they are
> much better than humans.
>

I also understand that in spoken language we actually hear no more than 20%
of uttered phonemes in mormal circumstances. This is of course is even more
of a disaster for languages that have a lot of omophones (say, Japanese).
Yet, we manage to put everything in context.


-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Wed Mar  7 02:31:47 2012
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 18:31:47 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ExI] Canonizer (was Re: Ignorant fear mongering (was Re: Doomsday
	Oil Price: (was RIP: Peak Oil)))
In-Reply-To: <4F4962C5.1040206@canonizer.com>
References: <CAPoR7a67Os-gOp3PTDfBuh4bZN5RAJTEaaabUbQX1EOPQ2WtLg@mail.gmail.com>
	<20120224211652.GM7343@leitl.org>
	<1330122650.78329.YahooMailNeo@web164502.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<20120225101558.GQ7343@leitl.org>
	<CAPoR7a4O_kawidaTZWG=009yiUrpSo=dQXmeq3QL7mhV0_opPg@mail.gmail.com>
	<20120225114020.GY7343@leitl.org> <4F48DDD8.20600@canonizer.com>
	<CAHUTwkPLjn-tq=Gj0yr-y_GCQh0jDLM6scVeDCjCvRH0z5_aOw@mail.gmail.com>
	<1330206802.60347.YahooMailNeo@web164501.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<4F4962C5.1040206@canonizer.com>
Message-ID: <1331087507.72843.YahooMailNeo@web164504.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

----- Original Message -----
> From: Brent Allsop <brent.allsop at canonizer.com>
> To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> Cc: 
> Sent: Saturday, February 25, 2012 2:37 PM
> Subject: Re: [ExI] Ignorant fear mongering (was Re: Doomsday Oil Price: (was RIP: Peak Oil))
> 
> 
> Sorry,
> 
> I'm just being open about my current beliefs, and how I feat as I read this, 
> whether I'm mistaken or not.? It may not have come through in that post, but 
> I really do care about and respect what you (and everyone else saying the same 
> thing) are saying.? It's just that I don't really have time to fully 
> study some of the sources you guys were quoting, let alone read every post, nor 
> become near the expert you guys are on any of this.? I was just simply trying to 
> point out how just talking about it, like this, add infinitem, without tracking 
> and summarizing what everyone is saying / believing - as compared to the experts 
> (as person chooses to select them) it's kind of a waist.

So what you are saying is you want to use both your "ask the audience" and "phone a friend" lifeline for every possible question in life? And so if they agree that's great, if they disagree, which do you go with? Hmm?

> I basically don't have time to read add infinite wasteful statements like 
> all this, but if you guys would canonize some of your work, so we could 
> basically find out what everyone thinks are the most compelling reasons, so my 
> ignorrant wisdom can keep up with you experts, in some kind of accelerated, with 
> an easy and concise state of the art reference.? That data you are pointing out 
> - obviously convinces you.? If it is really morally important, if peoples life 
> are dependent on it, you need to also find out, and measure, what everyone else 
> is thinking, and what it will take to help them see the moral light.? - Just 
> like we're doing with the consciousness survey project.

There is a jarring-incongruency in the idea of "cononizing" yourself by editing a wiki.?Sainting yourself is like knighting yourself, I can't do it without feeling pretty silly.?I don't claim to be a saint or a villain. Just a work in progress. So I won't write not one bit to your site. You however are free to?cut and paste?my writings there if you choose to. And if not, then my words were clearly not meant for you.

> In my mind, all you've posted was a? waste, and long washed under the 
> bridge, never to be seen again (I even missed the opening of the thread).? But 
> if the same stuff was concisely and quantitatively canonized, constantly 
> improving in a wiki way....?? Maybe then some of us mistaken masses, currently 
> more interested in other things, could have a hope of keeping up, so less people 
> end up suffering?? I'm just trying to raise the level of communication in 
> this group, and enable to it progress, instead of everyone being eternally stuck 
> in the yes / no / yes / no mud, nobody caring anything about what anyone else 
> but them thinks, forever.

You might think it was a waste, but my words have delightfully muddied the waters of the future, simply by being considered by conscious minds such as yours.

Stuart LaForge


"The state that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards, and its fighting by fools." -Thucydides.




From spike66 at att.net  Wed Mar  7 17:22:10 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 09:22:10 -0800
Subject: [ExI] kerBOOM
Message-ID: <00fd01ccfc86$d4bb8ca0$7e32a5e0$@att.net>

WOW!  We had an X5 flare last night.  {8^]  

 

You lads up north will likely get some good auroras out of the deal.

 

Cycle 24 isn't going to be such a disappointment after all.

 

http://spaceweather.com/

 

spike

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From kellycoinguy at gmail.com  Wed Mar  7 18:11:59 2012
From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 11:11:59 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Stepping into a Pile of Crap (Maybe)
Message-ID: <CAPy8RwbpoUsLkmwDPzT_kQjWQYXg9j_Sz5N1b+FSZbKUHPWKwQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hopefully this isn't too far off topic... but I know some of you have
had run ins with bad PR in the past, and I thought this might be a
good place to get some advice. You're the smartest people I know
collectively.

Recently, there has been a dust up about president Obama's web subsite
for African Americans.

http://www.barackobama.com/african-americans

Some people, me included, think this is racist. To point out this
fact, I am considering the creation of a parallel web site...

http://www.caucasiansformittromney.com

Meant entirely as comedic relief, and to offer a foil to the
president's web site. It might bring more people to be aware of the
president's racist web site, which is more or less the secondary goal.
The primary goal is to make a buck. :-) Hey, let's be honest about it,
right?


Obviously, if this gets any attention at all, I'm going to rue the day
I was born. I could get it bad from both sides. Tea Party people will
think I'm making them out to look racist... I mean the number of
things that could go wrong, badly wrong, are innumerable. Then again,
all this bad publicity could cause the site to go viral, and I could
stand to make a few bucks selling T-Shirts, accepting donations, or
just selling advertising.

Shockingly, I got a bunch of domain names related to this concept...
without even trying real hard... Apparently, there isn't anyone else
out there dumb enough to consider this angle.


So, please try and talk me out of this. :-)  Please!

-Kelly


From kellycoinguy at gmail.com  Wed Mar  7 18:19:17 2012
From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 11:19:17 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Character Recognition (was Re: AI milestones)
In-Reply-To: <CAPoR7a50v_MBfx9KHZUfe4NqqSYFeCz3aqfn7Oah7PL-KO1qDw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPy8Rwb+k2qJMWxL=L6K-=c0BidTRDx6-j29RoMtUhaHUDHdBw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPoR7a50v_MBfx9KHZUfe4NqqSYFeCz3aqfn7Oah7PL-KO1qDw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPy8RwYBYQ9mby-KmWtSyn9zE-6-WJKkQOBkyLDsza2Vj4hSWQ@mail.gmail.com>

2012/3/6 Stefano Vaj <stefano.vaj at gmail.com>:
> On 6 March 2012 21:04, Kelly Anderson <kellycoinguy at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> This might have been using Markov chains.. a really primitive kind of
>> limited context. When I say primitive, I mean simple to implement, not
>> ineffective. Any kind of context is absolutely critical to getting
>> good rates of character recognition and Markov chains is a good way to
>> easily put in a little context.
>
> Yes. This is still the case with computer dictation AFAIK.

I'm sure they are also using many more advanced techniques, along with
huge databases (such as trained neural networks), to get the pretty
decent results they are indeed getting these days.

The amazing thing is that even after it works fairly well, people
don't want to use it. I occasionally do dictation of text messages on
my phone, and tried to use Dragon on my computer, but I tire of it...
because it isn't 100% accurate is part of it, but the other part is
that my neural pathways are just better at typing well than speaking
well...

>> To see how this works, consider that in English, the letter Q is
>> nearly always followed by the letter U.
>
> The only exception, as for other matters, being Al Qaeda... :-)

LOL, not the only exception, but clearly a big one. Words of Islamic
origin are indeed most of the exceptions to this rule.

>> We humans are very good at text recognition because of the context. If
>> you present humans with the text out of context, they do little better
>> than computers with no context. Give humans the context, and they are
>> much better than humans.
>
>
> I also understand that in spoken language we actually hear no more than 20%
> of uttered phonemes in mormal circumstances. This is of course is even more
> of a disaster for languages that have a lot of omophones (say, Japanese).
> Yet, we manage to put everything in context.

It's entirely possible that we only hear 20%, but as I said there is a
lot of redundancy built into most human languages to compensate.
Context is nearly EVERYTHING in pattern recognition... and computers
are piss poor at putting things into context. That's my basic thesis
on this matter.

-Kelly


From scerir at alice.it  Wed Mar  7 18:25:46 2012
From: scerir at alice.it (scerir)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 19:25:46 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Wireless technology jump.
In-Reply-To: <CAPy8RwbVZ13xOaFBLdBV0K18c=e9GD4YdyUT_2M_g1ezXuT=jw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB4Ne16d+b0A-H6gGAQ-1VzRKcd5144x9HHOMDE+bA1jvQ@mail.gmail.com><CAPy8RwYbGEfaYx09zPR-+veffUqJszJ5CW6wzjtohPhCahukBA@mail.gmail.com><8BCF3ACE3DA846258870CDDE91E9310C@PCserafino>
	<CAPy8RwbVZ13xOaFBLdBV0K18c=e9GD4YdyUT_2M_g1ezXuT=jw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <B33D87CC3783465EAD0A528DDBDB3D6F@PCserafino>

>> http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/03/120302083011.htm
> The possible application to astronomy is an interesting twist... ;-)
> -Kelly

there are popular, verbose presentations, like this one ;-)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wm7DnvJ_mc
(in Italian only)

links
http://www.springerlink.com/content/b248t3v2j3805207/
http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1107/1107.2348.pdf

F. Tamburini, Bo Thid?, G. Molina-Terriza and G. Anzolin
Twisting of light around rotating black holes
Nature Physics, 7, 195, 2011




From kellycoinguy at gmail.com  Wed Mar  7 18:58:27 2012
From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 11:58:27 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Doomsday Oil Price: (was RIP: Peak Oil)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1203061903190.24482@tau.ceti.pl>
References: <1330122650.78329.YahooMailNeo@web164502.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<CALAdGNSK_WdsxcEgexwQ=qw+DQYJ2XP7PekJyWD=ky_G9Br1rg@mail.gmail.com>
	<1330201603.28318.YahooMailNeo@web164506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<CALAdGNS8p-_cqR5vRoqGV1YA336fRmGBxq_X+M0=qH0Q0HjMAg@mail.gmail.com>
	<00da01ccf414$666c2b30$33448190$@att.net>
	<CALAdGNSws9mgiYM46Q9-V-EF4R17kuKFQzdtWt5m9FLP+nyhTQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<1330380003.19357.YahooMailNeo@web164503.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<20120228072720.GR7343@leitl.org> <4F4D34CB.9050006@libero.it>
	<CAPy8RwbpQN5+YLh_ZNcdr=VBFRa=QTVuFv-MvjPPquAM-oqVww@mail.gmail.com>
	<20120229112356.GB7343@leitl.org>
	<CAPy8RwYE8r8mhsuueQi77U8Jw3PFsXbiyu9kEdNdj2kwCSiXtw@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1203061903190.24482@tau.ceti.pl>
Message-ID: <CAPy8RwZ5K6f17KbemgWz_6CXBwmrPKEszuTWJt=f2-RMtNCurQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Mar 6, 2012 at 12:08 PM, Tomasz Rola <rtomek at ceti.pl> wrote:
> On Mon, 5 Mar 2012, Kelly Anderson wrote:
>
>> I'd much rather be the US than Germany economically right now. Greece
>> and friends are dragging you down pretty heavy, and that's not pretty.
>> Solar or lack of it is the least of the problems Europe has at the
>> moment... at least according to the media reports I've heard.
>
> If we are at it, links, please? I am just interested, not challenging your
> POV.

http://globalpublicsquare.blogs.cnn.com/2012/02/21/roundup-eurozone-approves-new-greek-bailout/?iref=allsearch

"Eurozone finance ministers agreed to a new $172 billion bailout
package (WSJ) for Greece early this morning, along with a 53 percent
write-down of Greek debt by the country's private sector creditors."

>> >> >> it is certainly less expensive than new nuclear,
>> >> >
>> >> > If you make the solar jump in the loops as you do with new nuclear
>> >> > plants it would be much more expensive than new nuclear.
>> >
>> > Er. New nuclear is expensive because of safety requirements.
>> > Obviously PV panels don't have corium as main failure mode and
>> > millions of pipe welds to control.
>>
>> Nuclear is expensive because it is caught between brain dead engineers
>> that think they need to design each plant from scratch, and brain dead
>> tree huggers on the other side that think it's dangerous, when it
>> clearly is not statistically, even when you take Chernobyl and
>> Fukashima into account. Yet people think bears are dangerous when they
>> kill relatively few people too... it's part of the human psychology to
>> be afraid of a strange form of death more than a familiar form of
>> death.
>
> There seem to be mixed reports (no time to analyse in depth) about coal
> power station producing quite some amounts of radioactivity - because coal
> is not pure, it contains lots of additional substances. Even if there is
> not radiation from coal burning, there is a lot of other stuff going into
> air, contributing to acid rains, smog etc etc.

Not to mention mention mine accidents, death from asthma, etc., etc.,
etc... Coal is just dangerous, even without considering possible
climate effects.

> But. A vision of fireplace full of burning wood, distributing nice heat in
> your room/house is so heart catching. Truly a coal power station is in the
> same league, and I would expect Snow White working there, too.

Burning wood is no less environmentally friendly than coal... it is
just older trees...

> This was a moment when I realized tree huggers are emotion-driven.

Ya think!?!

> Unfortunately, I expect good decision making to be based on facts,
> emotions have some place but not much (eradicating emotions is not good,
> humans are not robots, yet humans who only know emotions are IMHO closer
> to animals than to rational beings).

Yes, though emotions are one of the subconscious' way of trying to get
the attention of the conscious mind. As such, they should never be
completely ignored. Your subconscious may have something important it
is trying to bring to your attention. But yes, I prefer logic over
emotion in the long term.

> Since that time, whenever I hear tree huggers oppose something, in my mind
> I add one point in favour of this thing, even before I start gathering
> facts to judge it.

Yeah, that's my emotional response too. LOL.

> Questions remain. Like, who gives those guys money. From what I've heard,
> western Greens had been backed by Red money, but Red is long dead now.

I think that they give each other money mostly now. People donate to
the Sierra club, for example. Who supports Green Peace? I don't know,
idiots?

> People are idiots but the money says truth.

Come on... some people with lots of money are still idiots. Two words:
George Soros... nuff said.

> [...]
>> >> We don't have a huge problem right now. If we did, we would have $15 a
>> >> gallon gasoline.
>> >
>> > We have 1.70 EUR/l at the moment, FWIW.
>>
>> I have never truly understood why gasoline is so much more expensive
>> in Europe than in the US. I always assumed that it was because the
>> European governments were screwing up the free market or taxing the
>> hell out of it, but I don't know if that's the case or not. Maybe the
>> US government subsidizes the prices here somehow to keep them
>> artificially low. I don't understand that part. Wish I did.
>
> Oh, if you were a Pole, or (I guess) even better, a Russian, you would
> have had inborn understanding there is a theoretical economy (which says a
> lot about "better wins", or "mutual exchange of surplus goods") and a real
> economy, which is real.
>
> I am used to see, in the same news, talk about oil prices going down on
> "world markets" and oil going up here in PL. The first reasonable thought
> I had after hearing we would be fraking shale gas was "ok, we are going to
> have our own gas, so how much the price will increase this time". Indeed,
> fraking is yet to start and we already had two increases, if memory serves
> me.

Sucks to be you. This is a real shame.

> The real economy is not limited to old-style industry. Consider a
> software, for example, where a small business starts selling a half-baked
> software and goes into global domination, while at the same time kicking
> better alternatives out of the market. I could argue their soft is
> half-baked even now, but on the other hand, I admire those guys. Their
> understanding of reality is so good, I almost feel shivers on my back when
> I try to imagine it. Of course I stay away from their products, which
> doesn't diminish my fascination with their success.
>
> [...]
>> Do we really need to plan 30 years ahead in energy? What would that
>> long term a plan even look like? What would it even say?
>
> I guess it should start like this: "Those who don't plan their future will
> have none. Yes they may be alive, only spending their days in Ethernal
> Present, not remembering and not prospecting."

Nice quote. However, it side steps the main question. What would a
long term energy plan look like? What would it say? Would it say
things like "We want to have 20% of of the transportation sector's
energy to be solar photovoltaic by 2035."??? What would it say? How
would that affect decisions made today? Is it just an excuse for more
government meddling in the private sector?

-Kelly


From kellycoinguy at gmail.com  Wed Mar  7 19:06:36 2012
From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 12:06:36 -0700
Subject: [ExI] exoskeleton makes the lame to walk
In-Reply-To: <1330385967.85496.YahooMailNeo@web164504.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <012501ccf570$532ef3b0$f98cdb10$@att.net>
	<1330385967.85496.YahooMailNeo@web164504.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAPy8RwYM-bFJGSCAeaFVQHjWm13Ft4Mx8zeF=hmQW7EFq_V2kQ@mail.gmail.com>

Video is worth a thousand words in this case...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QK-qsas8dqA

-Kelly


From pharos at gmail.com  Wed Mar  7 19:23:22 2012
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 19:23:22 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Doomsday Oil Price: (was RIP: Peak Oil)
In-Reply-To: <CAPy8RwZ5K6f17KbemgWz_6CXBwmrPKEszuTWJt=f2-RMtNCurQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1330122650.78329.YahooMailNeo@web164502.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<CALAdGNSK_WdsxcEgexwQ=qw+DQYJ2XP7PekJyWD=ky_G9Br1rg@mail.gmail.com>
	<1330201603.28318.YahooMailNeo@web164506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<CALAdGNS8p-_cqR5vRoqGV1YA336fRmGBxq_X+M0=qH0Q0HjMAg@mail.gmail.com>
	<00da01ccf414$666c2b30$33448190$@att.net>
	<CALAdGNSws9mgiYM46Q9-V-EF4R17kuKFQzdtWt5m9FLP+nyhTQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<1330380003.19357.YahooMailNeo@web164503.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<20120228072720.GR7343@leitl.org> <4F4D34CB.9050006@libero.it>
	<CAPy8RwbpQN5+YLh_ZNcdr=VBFRa=QTVuFv-MvjPPquAM-oqVww@mail.gmail.com>
	<20120229112356.GB7343@leitl.org>
	<CAPy8RwYE8r8mhsuueQi77U8Jw3PFsXbiyu9kEdNdj2kwCSiXtw@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1203061903190.24482@tau.ceti.pl>
	<CAPy8RwZ5K6f17KbemgWz_6CXBwmrPKEszuTWJt=f2-RMtNCurQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armgX_iVGhZmYRsR3Rn_fFx4konMqXs9Q+iYrZsSQtfJnbA@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 6:58 PM, Kelly Anderson  wrote:
> "Eurozone finance ministers agreed to a new $172 billion bailout
> package (WSJ) for Greece early this morning, along with a 53 percent
> write-down of Greek debt by the country's private sector creditors."
>

Just to be clear. This is political spin.

Greece won't see a penny of this 'bailout'.
This is another bailout of the French and German banks. These banks
are bust, just as Greece is bust. Greece cannot make the payments due
to the bankers, so the Eurozone will lend even more money to Greece so
that Greece can immediately pay it on to the bankers. It is a farce.
Refusing to accept that it all has to be written off, bankrupt banks
closed down and everything restarted with a clean sheet,.
Like Iceland has done.

Now I hear that Greece is considering selling Corfu to raise money! I
bet a few billionaire bankers will have their snouts in that trough.


BillK


From nymphomation at gmail.com  Wed Mar  7 18:52:52 2012
From: nymphomation at gmail.com (*Nym*)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 18:52:52 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Stepping into a Pile of Crap (Maybe)
In-Reply-To: <CAPy8RwbpoUsLkmwDPzT_kQjWQYXg9j_Sz5N1b+FSZbKUHPWKwQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPy8RwbpoUsLkmwDPzT_kQjWQYXg9j_Sz5N1b+FSZbKUHPWKwQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACMJz99i8PDiwCaRzXehE43up8DQeo+fgZkOS81NgNh-fan0vQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 07/03/2012, Kelly Anderson <kellycoinguy at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hopefully this isn't too far off topic... but I know some of you have
> had run ins with bad PR in the past, and I thought this might be a
> good place to get some advice. You're the smartest people I know
> collectively.
>
> Recently, there has been a dust up about president Obama's web subsite
> for African Americans.
>
> http://www.barackobama.com/african-americans
>
> Some people, me included, think this is racist. To point out this
> fact, I am considering the creation of a parallel web site...
>
> http://www.caucasiansformittromney.com

[Suspending Godwin for a while..]

I wouldn't bother, you'll look like a Nazi complaining it's unfair
there isn't a parallel network of guerrillas** helping national
socialists escape to Switzerland or England..

If you think affirmative action is a blunt instrument to deal with
inequality* then try to come up with something better, rather than
just take the piss.

*I do, but then I kept quiet about my idea of 'Music of Pasty White
Origin' awards to counter the MOBOs..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_of_Black_Origin_Awards

** http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secret_Army

o_O

Heavy splashings,
Thee Nymphomation

'If you cannot afford an executioner, a duty executioner
will be appointed to you free of charge by the court'


From msd001 at gmail.com  Wed Mar  7 19:47:21 2012
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 14:47:21 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Stepping into a Pile of Crap (Maybe)
In-Reply-To: <CAPy8RwbpoUsLkmwDPzT_kQjWQYXg9j_Sz5N1b+FSZbKUHPWKwQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPy8RwbpoUsLkmwDPzT_kQjWQYXg9j_Sz5N1b+FSZbKUHPWKwQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOJFdbJDT9tv8Rp032ri0yCjP6QqxM6zZ0+3y_jytjEezUOv3A@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 1:11 PM, Kelly Anderson <kellycoinguy at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hopefully this isn't too far off topic... but I know some of you have
> had run ins with bad PR in the past, and I thought this might be a
> good place to get some advice. You're the smartest people I know
> collectively.
>
> Recently, there has been a dust up about president Obama's web subsite
> for African Americans.
>
> http://www.barackobama.com/african-americans
>
> Some people, me included, think this is racist. To point out this
> fact, I am considering the creation of a parallel web site...

You know that McDonalds (likely other mega-corps) have "targeted"
marketing subsites?

from: http://www.mcdonalds.com/us/en/websites.html

http://www.365black.com/365black/index.jsp is "Deeply Rooted in the Community"
also: "At McDonald's?, we believe that African-American culture and
achievement should be celebrated 365 days a year ? not just during
Black History Month."

You could also go here:
http://www.myinspirasian.com/html/english/index.html#/?slide=0
and take the Asian Phrases Challenge.  It makes me wonder if they
would target a Latino community by quizzing their knowledge of
Spanish.

Latino: http://www.meencanta.com/
Nope.  They do, however, provide a link to switch to English.  I guess
that's good.

In case you aren't fitting into a specific ethnicity though, you might
be a member of the children (http://www.happymeal.com/en_US/) or
tweens (http://www.mcworld.com/) demographic.  While there you (or
your unsuspecting children) will be subject to lines like "Hey kids,
this is advertising!"  (is that Truth in Advertising that it is
in-fact advertising?)

Kelly, I say go for it.  You are in good company.  If anyone objects
you can point blame at others and claim to only be doing what other
successful companies are clearly getting away with.



From rtomek at ceti.pl  Wed Mar  7 20:16:55 2012
From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 21:16:55 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [ExI] Doomsday Oil Price: (was RIP: Peak Oil)
In-Reply-To: <CAPy8RwZ5K6f17KbemgWz_6CXBwmrPKEszuTWJt=f2-RMtNCurQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1330122650.78329.YahooMailNeo@web164502.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<CALAdGNSK_WdsxcEgexwQ=qw+DQYJ2XP7PekJyWD=ky_G9Br1rg@mail.gmail.com>
	<1330201603.28318.YahooMailNeo@web164506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<CALAdGNS8p-_cqR5vRoqGV1YA336fRmGBxq_X+M0=qH0Q0HjMAg@mail.gmail.com>
	<00da01ccf414$666c2b30$33448190$@att.net>
	<CALAdGNSws9mgiYM46Q9-V-EF4R17kuKFQzdtWt5m9FLP+nyhTQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<1330380003.19357.YahooMailNeo@web164503.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<20120228072720.GR7343@leitl.org> <4F4D34CB.9050006@libero.it>
	<CAPy8RwbpQN5+YLh_ZNcdr=VBFRa=QTVuFv-MvjPPquAM-oqVww@mail.gmail.com>
	<20120229112356.GB7343@leitl.org>
	<CAPy8RwYE8r8mhsuueQi77U8Jw3PFsXbiyu9kEdNdj2kwCSiXtw@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1203061903190.24482@tau.ceti.pl>
	<CAPy8RwZ5K6f17KbemgWz_6CXBwmrPKEszuTWJt=f2-RMtNCurQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1203072021200.23013@tau.ceti.pl>

On Wed, 7 Mar 2012, Kelly Anderson wrote:

> On Tue, Mar 6, 2012 at 12:08 PM, Tomasz Rola <rtomek at ceti.pl> wrote:
> > On Mon, 5 Mar 2012, Kelly Anderson wrote:
> >
> >> I'd much rather be the US than Germany economically right now. Greece
> >> and friends are dragging you down pretty heavy, and that's not pretty.
> >> Solar or lack of it is the least of the problems Europe has at the
> >> moment... at least according to the media reports I've heard.
> >
> > If we are at it, links, please? I am just interested, not challenging your
> > POV.
> 
> http://globalpublicsquare.blogs.cnn.com/2012/02/21/roundup-eurozone-approves-new-greek-bailout/?iref=allsearch
> 
> "Eurozone finance ministers agreed to a new $172 billion bailout
> package (WSJ) for Greece early this morning, along with a 53 percent
> write-down of Greek debt by the country's private sector creditors."

Thanks, will read.

> > Questions remain. Like, who gives those guys money. From what I've heard,
> > western Greens had been backed by Red money, but Red is long dead now.
> 
> I think that they give each other money mostly now. People donate to
> the Sierra club, for example. Who supports Green Peace? I don't know,
> idiots?
> 
> > People are idiots but the money says truth.
> 
> Come on... some people with lots of money are still idiots. Two words:
> George Soros... nuff said.

I'm not sure about this. My understanding of idiocy is such that rich 
idiots become poor idiots very quickly. So, to judge where this particular 
guy is heading, I would need some data on his finances. OTOH, if he is an 
idiot but has good advisors... Yep, complicated.

[...]
> Sucks to be you. This is a real shame.

Really depends. If after all I land on top of this, maybe it will suck 
less, maybe I will even like it :-). Life is a process.

> >> Do we really need to plan 30 years ahead in energy? What would that
> >> long term a plan even look like? What would it even say?
> >
> > I guess it should start like this: "Those who don't plan their future will
> > have none. Yes they may be alive, only spending their days in Ethernal
> > Present, not remembering and not prospecting."
> 
> Nice quote.

You can cite me any way you want :-).

> However, it side steps the main question. What would a
> long term energy plan look like? What would it say? Would it say
> things like "We want to have 20% of of the transportation sector's
> energy to be solar photovoltaic by 2035."??? What would it say? How
> would that affect decisions made today? Is it just an excuse for more
> government meddling in the private sector?

I guess there can be both "theoretic" plans and real plans. The real ones 
are backed by real numbers. Unfortunately, access to real numbers might be 
hard. For example, is it possible to have prognosis of oil available in 
the next 50 years, 100% certain? No, if for nothing else, two reasons: 
there are companies who could loose value if real numbers made them look 
ugly and twice, to be even close to "absolutely certain" would require 
doing much more research. I might be wrong, but I don't think process of 
oil making had been replicated in lab. Synfuel is not oil.

Besides, it is somewhat hard to prognose about progress. Hundred+ years 
ago, prognosis was that London would be inevitably covered by horse 
manure, based on city/population growth speed and their expected 
transportation needs.

The prognosis was ok, it just didn't mention cars.

Fifty+ years ago, there was much talking about Moon/Mars/Jupiter bases and 
other such fancy stuff (energy, food, illnesses - all solved).

Those prognoses were ok, too. They just forgot that people really don't 
care about this more than they care about some boysband breaking up. Or 
they care about being cool and up to date, and space missions don't look 
cool anymore (apart from space shooters for PS3).

So... so much about long term planning. I suspect most of this is some 
form of masturbation. Unless you can put your hand on real numbers. I 
suspect 50 years ago there were some thinkers who realized space age 
required commitment hard to find in human race. Their voice was not good 
enough masterbator, so it was lost in noise (assuming they wanted to talk 
about it).

With real numbers and with lots of simplification, it is possible to make 
some simulation and based on them, some plans. Like World3 model from 
"Limits to growth"/"Beyond the limits". Problem is, again, that such 
simulations are not cool.

Do we need any transportation after 2035?

Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.      **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home    **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...      **
**                                                                 **
** Tomasz Rola          mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com             **


From mrjones2020 at gmail.com  Wed Mar  7 19:57:56 2012
From: mrjones2020 at gmail.com (J.R. Jones)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 14:57:56 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Extra gene keeps mice cancer-free and permanently skinny
Message-ID: <CADDVf2KNssiybOTVS4c+9xO4oFXrtcG1W4E4doixag5xic3b6w@mail.gmail.com>

Have any of you read this?  Anyone working with PTEN?  Sounds like it's too
good to be true.  All the stated benefits should increase longevity too no?

http://io9.com/5891100/extra-gene-keeps-mice-cancer+free-and-permanently-skinny
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From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Wed Mar  7 20:24:11 2012
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 12:24:11 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ExI] Banks (was Re:  Doomsday Oil Price: (was RIP: Peak Oil))
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armgX_iVGhZmYRsR3Rn_fFx4konMqXs9Q+iYrZsSQtfJnbA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1330122650.78329.YahooMailNeo@web164502.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<CALAdGNSK_WdsxcEgexwQ=qw+DQYJ2XP7PekJyWD=ky_G9Br1rg@mail.gmail.com>
	<1330201603.28318.YahooMailNeo@web164506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<CALAdGNS8p-_cqR5vRoqGV1YA336fRmGBxq_X+M0=qH0Q0HjMAg@mail.gmail.com>
	<00da01ccf414$666c2b30$33448190$@att.net>
	<CALAdGNSws9mgiYM46Q9-V-EF4R17kuKFQzdtWt5m9FLP+nyhTQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<1330380003.19357.YahooMailNeo@web164503.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<20120228072720.GR7343@leitl.org> <4F4D34CB.9050006@libero.it>
	<CAPy8RwbpQN5+YLh_ZNcdr=VBFRa=QTVuFv-MvjPPquAM-oqVww@mail.gmail.com>
	<20120229112356.GB7343@leitl.org>
	<CAPy8RwYE8r8mhsuueQi77U8Jw3PFsXbiyu9kEdNdj2kwCSiXtw@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1203061903190.24482@tau.ceti.pl>
	<CAPy8RwZ5K6f17KbemgWz_6CXBwmrPKEszuTWJt=f2-RMtNCurQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAL_armgX_iVGhZmYRsR3Rn_fFx4konMqXs9Q+iYrZsSQtfJnbA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1331151851.92406.YahooMailNeo@web164504.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

----- Original Message -----
> From: BillK <pharos at gmail.com>
> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Cc: 
> Sent: Wednesday, March 7, 2012 11:23 AM
> Subject: Re: [ExI] Doomsday Oil Price: (was RIP: Peak Oil)
> 
> On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 6:58 PM, Kelly Anderson? wrote:
>> "Eurozone finance ministers agreed to a new $172 billion bailout
>> package (WSJ) for Greece early this morning, along with a 53 percent
>> write-down of Greek debt by the country's private sector 
> creditors."
>> 
> 
> Just to be clear. This is political spin.
> 
> Greece won't see a penny of this 'bailout'.
> This is another bailout of the French and German banks. These banks
> are bust, just as Greece is bust. Greece cannot make the payments due
> to the bankers, so the Eurozone will lend even more money to Greece so
> that Greece can immediately pay it on to the bankers. It is a farce.
> Refusing to accept that it all has to be written off, bankrupt banks
> closed down and everything restarted with a clean sheet,.
> Like Iceland has done.
> 
> Now I hear that Greece is considering selling Corfu to raise money! I
> bet a few billionaire bankers will have their snouts in that trough.

In a day and age when everyone is having to deal with the prospect of losing their jobs to automation, aren't bankers at all worried? I mean other than the right to ownership, which software doesn't have but that corporations do, what exactly do bankers *do* that a machine can't do better? I for one almost always use my bank's ATM. Does the CEO of my bank do any more for me than that ATM machine? I mean other than give himself fat bonuses for screwing up the economy?

You really want to get back at the bankers, Bill, program and design a bank that can operate at a huge profit with zero employees. Then if the bank goes broke, you can just pull the plug on it and not have to worry about it whining to the government.



Stuart LaForge


"The state that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards, and its fighting by fools." -Thucydides.




From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Wed Mar  7 20:55:58 2012
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 12:55:58 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ExI] Extra gene keeps mice cancer-free and permanently skinny
In-Reply-To: <CADDVf2KNssiybOTVS4c+9xO4oFXrtcG1W4E4doixag5xic3b6w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADDVf2KNssiybOTVS4c+9xO4oFXrtcG1W4E4doixag5xic3b6w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1331153758.39586.YahooMailNeo@web164505.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

________________________________
>From: J.R. Jones <mrjones2020 at gmail.com>
>To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> 
>Sent: Wednesday, March 7, 2012 11:57 AM
>Subject: [ExI] Extra gene keeps mice cancer-free and permanently skinny
>
>
>Have any of you read this? ?Anyone working with PTEN? ?Sounds like it's too good to be true. ?All the stated benefits should increase longevity too no?

But of course. And similar effects have been found with other turmor supressor genes in various organisms. Look up mice with extra P-53. Also having an extra super-oxide dismutase gene makes uber-flies that are more active, live longer, have more sex, and burn more total calories than their none-enhanced counterparts. The problem??A biotechnician?has to get to you as an embryo in order to give you an extra copy of any of these genes. This is called *germline* genetic engineering. It is considered the ultimate in playing God. Find out if human germline engineering is legal in your nation. If it is, you could literally buy your children long life and other advantages. Note that this might have unintended consequences for the unenhanced, which is why everyone will soon need to shell out the money for a smart-phone.
?
Stuart LaForge


"The state that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards, and its fighting by fools." -Thucydides



From atymes at gmail.com  Wed Mar  7 21:14:31 2012
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 13:14:31 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Banks (was Re: Doomsday Oil Price: (was RIP: Peak Oil))
In-Reply-To: <1331151851.92406.YahooMailNeo@web164504.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <1330122650.78329.YahooMailNeo@web164502.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<CALAdGNSK_WdsxcEgexwQ=qw+DQYJ2XP7PekJyWD=ky_G9Br1rg@mail.gmail.com>
	<1330201603.28318.YahooMailNeo@web164506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<CALAdGNS8p-_cqR5vRoqGV1YA336fRmGBxq_X+M0=qH0Q0HjMAg@mail.gmail.com>
	<00da01ccf414$666c2b30$33448190$@att.net>
	<CALAdGNSws9mgiYM46Q9-V-EF4R17kuKFQzdtWt5m9FLP+nyhTQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<1330380003.19357.YahooMailNeo@web164503.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<20120228072720.GR7343@leitl.org> <4F4D34CB.9050006@libero.it>
	<CAPy8RwbpQN5+YLh_ZNcdr=VBFRa=QTVuFv-MvjPPquAM-oqVww@mail.gmail.com>
	<20120229112356.GB7343@leitl.org>
	<CAPy8RwYE8r8mhsuueQi77U8Jw3PFsXbiyu9kEdNdj2kwCSiXtw@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1203061903190.24482@tau.ceti.pl>
	<CAPy8RwZ5K6f17KbemgWz_6CXBwmrPKEszuTWJt=f2-RMtNCurQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAL_armgX_iVGhZmYRsR3Rn_fFx4konMqXs9Q+iYrZsSQtfJnbA@mail.gmail.com>
	<1331151851.92406.YahooMailNeo@web164504.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNSfaQgc7um6y8reqiHAPAEg4U-+Tp-9XA=iHzAKraWEnQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 12:24 PM, The Avantguardian
<avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> In a day and age when everyone is having to deal with the prospect of losing their jobs to automation, aren't bankers at all worried? I mean other than the right to ownership, which software doesn't have but that corporations do, what exactly do bankers *do* that a machine can't do better? I for one almost always use my bank's ATM. Does the CEO of my bank do any more for me than that ATM machine? I mean other than give himself fat bonuses for screwing up the economy?

Bank CEOs' pay is - or, at least, is widely perceived to be - not
connected to the value they give, but instead to the amount of
assets their organization controls.

Said CEOs would gladly replace their entire teller staff with ATMs
if they could.  Opening accounts, making cashiers' checks, and
other such services are currently done manually, but in theory
they could be done by ATMs.  (Yes, some people prefer dealing
with a human face, so tellers are retained to get those peoples'
money invested in the banks.)

Where banks make their money - and where the CEOs are mainly
interested - is in loans.  If you could replace the entire loan making
process with software (or as much of it as possible), then you might
possibly start threatening the CEOs - though they have been trying
this on their own.  (Indeed, some banks tried replacing a certain part
of the process that legally can't - yet - be replaced by machines.
This is the "robo-signing" scandal.)



From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Thu Mar  8 00:40:39 2012
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 16:40:39 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ExI] Banks
References: <1330122650.78329.YahooMailNeo@web164502.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<CALAdGNSK_WdsxcEgexwQ=qw+DQYJ2XP7PekJyWD=ky_G9Br1rg@mail.gmail.com>
	<1330201603.28318.YahooMailNeo@web164506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<CALAdGNS8p-_cqR5vRoqGV1YA336fRmGBxq_X+M0=qH0Q0HjMAg@mail.gmail.com>
	<00da01ccf414$666c2b30$33448190$@att.net>
	<CALAdGNSws9mgiYM46Q9-V-EF4R17kuKFQzdtWt5m9FLP+nyhTQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<1330380003.19357.YahooMailNeo@web164503.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<20120228072720.GR7343@leitl.org> <4F4D34CB.9050006@libero.it>
	<CAPy8RwbpQN5+YLh_ZNcdr=VBFRa=QTVuFv-MvjPPquAM-oqVww@mail.gmail.com>
	<20120229112356.GB7343@leitl.org>
	<CAPy8RwYE8r8mhsuueQi77U8Jw3PFsXbiyu9kEdNdj2kwCSiXtw@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1203061903190.24482@tau.ceti.pl>
	<CAPy8RwZ5K6f17KbemgWz_6CXBwmrPKEszuTWJt=f2-RMtNCurQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAL_armgX_iVGhZmYRsR3Rn_fFx4konMqXs9Q+iYrZsSQtfJnbA@mail.gmail.com>
	<1331151851.92406.YahooMailNeo@web164504.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<CALAdGNSfaQgc7um6y8reqiHAPAEg4U-+Tp-9XA=iHzAKraWEnQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1331167239.55818.YahooMailNeo@web164501.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

---- Original Message -----
> From: Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com>
> To: The Avantguardian <avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com>; ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Cc: 
> Sent: Wednesday, March 7, 2012 1:14 PM
> Subject: Re: [ExI] Banks (was Re: Doomsday Oil Price: (was RIP: Peak Oil))
> 
> On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 12:24 PM, The Avantguardian
> <avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>> In a day and age when everyone is having to deal with the prospect of 
> losing their jobs to automation, aren't bankers at all worried? I mean other 
> than the right to ownership, which software doesn't have but that 
> corporations do, what exactly do bankers *do* that a machine can't do 
> better? I for one almost always use my bank's ATM. Does the CEO of my bank 
> do any more for me than that ATM machine? I mean other than give himself fat 
> bonuses for screwing up the economy?
> 
> Bank CEOs' pay is - or, at least, is widely perceived to be - not
> connected to the value they give, but instead to the amount of
> assets their organization controls.

This perception might be a huge part of the problem when those assetts can be things like millions of foreclosed homes that the shareholder's of the banks can't actually use or sell. If the goal of the banks is to increase its assetts in an open-ended fashion, the end result of an institution that both creates money and increases its own assets?is that it ends up owning everything yet controlling nothing because?very little of what it owns is part of the actual banking process.??

> Said CEOs would gladly replace their entire teller staff with ATMs
> if they could.? Opening accounts, making cashiers' checks, and
> other such services are currently done manually, but in theory
> they could be done by ATMs.? (Yes, some people prefer dealing
> with a human face, so tellers are retained to get those peoples'
> money invested in the banks.)

Fine, then contract with some young beautiful people to walk around your ATM kiosk helping the elderly to use the ATM. There are already cameras on all ATMs so you won't have to worry about too much hanky panky.

> Where banks make their money - and where the CEOs are mainly
> interested - is in loans.? If you could replace the entire loan making
> process with software (or as much of it as possible), then you might
> possibly start threatening the CEOs - though they have been trying
> this on their own.? (Indeed, some banks tried replacing a certain part
> of the process that legally can't - yet - be replaced by machines.
> This is the "robo-signing" scandal.)

As usual for the state, the act that is being punished is actually slightly removed from the ethical violation that warrants punshment. The ethical violation was not that they used a machine to authorize sales by signing in place of?the signatory. The ethical violation is that they so used?a machine to commit a super human level of fraud in single trading day, selling garbage they knew was worthless to suckers.??
?
Stuart LaForge


"The state that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards, and its fighting by fools." -Thucydides.




From spike66 at att.net  Thu Mar  8 02:49:31 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 18:49:31 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Banks (was Re: Doomsday Oil Price: (was RIP: Peak Oil))
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNSfaQgc7um6y8reqiHAPAEg4U-+Tp-9XA=iHzAKraWEnQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1330122650.78329.YahooMailNeo@web164502.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>	<CALAdGNSK_WdsxcEgexwQ=qw+DQYJ2XP7PekJyWD=ky_G9Br1rg@mail.gmail.com>	<1330201603.28318.YahooMailNeo@web164506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>	<CALAdGNS8p-_cqR5vRoqGV1YA336fRmGBxq_X+M0=qH0Q0HjMAg@mail.gmail.com>	<00da01ccf414$666c2b30$33448190$@att.net>	<CALAdGNSws9mgiYM46Q9-V-EF4R17kuKFQzdtWt5m9FLP+nyhTQ@mail.gmail.com>	<1330380003.19357.YahooMailNeo@web164503.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>	<20120228072720.GR7343@leitl.org>
	<4F4D34CB.9050006@libero.it>	<CAPy8RwbpQN5+YLh_ZNcdr=VBFRa=QTVuFv-MvjPPquAM-oqVww@mail.gmail.com>	<20120229112356.GB7343@leitl.org>	<CAPy8RwYE8r8mhsuueQi77U8Jw3PFsXbiyu9kEdNdj2kwCSiXtw@mail.gmail.com>	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1203061903190.24482@tau.ceti.pl>	<CAPy8RwZ5K6f17KbemgWz_6CXBwmrPKEszuTWJt=f2-RMtNCurQ@mail.gmail.com>	<CAL_armgX_iVGhZmYRsR3Rn_fFx4konMqXs9Q+iYrZsSQtfJnbA@mail.gmail.com>	<1331151851.92406.YahooMailNeo@web164504.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<CALAdGNSfaQgc7um6y8reqiHAPAEg4U-+Tp-9XA=iHzAKraWEnQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <01f901ccfcd6$177d99d0$4678cd70$@att.net>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes
...

>...Yes, some people prefer dealing with a human face, so tellers are
retained...

Ja, I don't see why the rest of us should subsidize that.  Consider, a low
level teller position pays about 40k, and there are costs associated with
any employee which double their salary at the lower end, so about 80k cost
per year to the bank per bio-teller.  Or would we call that a NTM, a
non-automated teller machine?  At current typical savings account rates, .75
percent, it requires over ten million dollars worth of savings to generate
the earnings of a single NTM.  There are plenty of us who do not ever want
to deal with a human face.  They are so... biological, eeewwww, gross.  All
that icky metabolism, I am so squicked.  

Actually I love bank tellers, for usually they are women under 35.  To most
men over about 50, nearly all women under 35 are beautiful.  Banks put their
nice, friendly ones out front.  But I still don't think I should be required
to pay their salaries, for I only see them once or twice a year.


>...Indeed, some banks tried replacing a certain part of the process that
legally can't - yet - be replaced by machines.
This is the "robo-signing" scandal.)

I don't see why there should be a legal prohibition against robo-signing.
What we need is a loan vending machine, or some completely automated process
which has some mysterious algorithm which determines if you get your loan or
not.  It has access to all your records, and digs around in ways only it's
programmer understands.  Clearly a machine would not be vulnerable to a
racism charge, for the machine wouldn't know or care what race the person
is.  It is also perfectly OK for it to robo-sign, being completely unable to
do otherwise.

spike 



From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Thu Mar  8 03:49:11 2012
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 19:49:11 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ExI] Banks (was Re: Doomsday Oil Price: (was RIP: Peak Oil))
In-Reply-To: <01f901ccfcd6$177d99d0$4678cd70$@att.net>
References: <1330122650.78329.YahooMailNeo@web164502.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<CALAdGNSK_WdsxcEgexwQ=qw+DQYJ2XP7PekJyWD=ky_G9Br1rg@mail.gmail.com>
	<1330201603.28318.YahooMailNeo@web164506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<CALAdGNS8p-_cqR5vRoqGV1YA336fRmGBxq_X+M0=qH0Q0HjMAg@mail.gmail.com>
	<00da01ccf414$666c2b30$33448190$@att.net>
	<CALAdGNSws9mgiYM46Q9-V-EF4R17kuKFQzdtWt5m9FLP+nyhTQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<1330380003.19357.YahooMailNeo@web164503.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<20120228072720.GR7343@leitl.org> <4F4D34CB.9050006@libero.it>
	<CAPy8RwbpQN5+YLh_ZNcdr=VBFRa=QTVuFv-MvjPPquAM-oqVww@mail.gmail.com>
	<20120229112356.GB7343@leitl.org>
	<CAPy8RwYE8r8mhsuueQi77U8Jw3PFsXbiyu9kEdNdj2kwCSiXtw@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1203061903190.24482@tau.ceti.pl>
	<CAPy8RwZ5K6f17KbemgWz_6CXBwmrPKEszuTWJt=f2-RMtNCurQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAL_armgX_iVGhZmYRsR3Rn_fFx4konMqXs9Q+iYrZsSQtfJnbA@mail.gmail.com>
	<1331151851.92406.YahooMailNeo@web164504.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<CALAdGNSfaQgc7um6y8reqiHAPAEg4U-+Tp-9XA=iHzAKraWEnQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<01f901ccfcd6$177d99d0$4678cd70$@att.net>
Message-ID: <1331178551.90660.YahooMailNeo@web164501.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>




----- Original Message -----
> From: spike <spike66 at att.net>
> To: 'ExI chat list' <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Cc: 
> Sent: Wednesday, March 7, 2012 6:49 PM
> Subject: Re: [ExI] Banks (was Re: Doomsday Oil Price: (was RIP: Peak Oil))
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
> [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes
> ...
> 
>> ...Yes, some people prefer dealing with a human face, so tellers are
> retained...
> 
> Ja, I don't see why the rest of us should subsidize that.? Consider, a low
> level teller position pays about 40k, and there are costs associated with
> any employee which double their salary at the lower end, so about 80k cost
> per year to the bank per bio-teller.? Or would we call that a NTM, a
> non-automated teller machine?? At current typical savings account rates, .75
> percent, it requires over ten million dollars worth of savings to generate
> the earnings of a single NTM.? There are plenty of us who do not ever want
> to deal with a human face.? They are so... biological, eeewwww, gross.? All
> that icky metabolism, I am so squicked.? 
> 
> Actually I love bank tellers, for usually they are women under 35.? To most
> men over about 50, nearly all women under 35 are beautiful.? Banks put their
> nice, friendly ones out front.? But I still don't think I should be required
> to pay their salaries, for I only see them once or twice a year.
> 
> 
>> ...Indeed, some banks tried replacing a certain part of the process that
> legally can't - yet - be replaced by machines.
> This is the "robo-signing" scandal.)
> 
> I don't see why there should be a legal prohibition against robo-signing.
> What we need is a loan vending machine, or some completely automated process
> which has some mysterious algorithm which determines if you get your loan or
> not.? It has access to all your records, and digs around in ways only it's
> programmer understands.? Clearly a machine would not be vulnerable to a
> racism charge, for the machine wouldn't know or care what race the person
> is.? It is also perfectly OK for it to robo-sign, being completely unable to
> do otherwise.

It doesn't have to be mysterious. The loan software could be open-source, water-tight,?and bullet-proof. You could even have it printed like a contract on the outside of the loan vending machine. If the end of work approaches, let's automate the parasite industries?first. This will give?humanity the biggest collective single boost of economic efficiency that I can foresee.
?
?
Stuart LaForge


"The state that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards, and its fighting by fools." -Thucydides. 




From kellycoinguy at gmail.com  Thu Mar  8 04:31:32 2012
From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 21:31:32 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Stepping into a Pile of Crap (Maybe)
In-Reply-To: <CACMJz99i8PDiwCaRzXehE43up8DQeo+fgZkOS81NgNh-fan0vQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPy8RwbpoUsLkmwDPzT_kQjWQYXg9j_Sz5N1b+FSZbKUHPWKwQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CACMJz99i8PDiwCaRzXehE43up8DQeo+fgZkOS81NgNh-fan0vQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPy8RwY3c7VGJxep3H19MW=G2QoKD_Cj6=JAOSpcS9_WwXwa5Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 11:52 AM, *Nym* <nymphomation at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 07/03/2012, Kelly Anderson <kellycoinguy at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hopefully this isn't too far off topic... but I know some of you have
>> had run ins with bad PR in the past, and I thought this might be a
>> good place to get some advice. You're the smartest people I know
>> collectively.
>>
>> Recently, there has been a dust up about president Obama's web subsite
>> for African Americans.
>>
>> http://www.barackobama.com/african-americans
>>
>> Some people, me included, think this is racist. To point out this
>> fact, I am considering the creation of a parallel web site...
>>
>> http://www.caucasiansformittromney.com
>
> [Suspending Godwin for a while..]

There's a way to be sure you're making a persuasive argument... LOL. :-)

> I wouldn't bother, you'll look like a Nazi complaining it's unfair
> there isn't a parallel network of guerrillas** helping national
> socialists escape to Switzerland or England..

I don't think I buy that argument particularly. What I'm looking for
is, "If you do this, Jimmy Hoffa will rise from his grave and beat you
senseless." You know specific mean things that might happen to me if I
do it.

> If you think affirmative action is a blunt instrument to deal with
> inequality* then try to come up with something better, rather than
> just take the piss.

I'm not a huge fan of affirmative action, but I do understand where it
came from. The blacks have received a poor deal from America over the
years, and a worse deal at the hands of the Democrats. The blacks were
far far far better off before Lyndon Johnson screwed them over with
his advertising of government assistance to impoverished communities.
That was a really bad idea.

> *I do, but then I kept quiet about my idea of 'Music of Pasty White
> Origin' awards to counter the MOBOs..
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_of_Black_Origin_Awards

Ouch. That hurts my head...

> ** http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secret_Army
>
> o_O
>
> Heavy splashings,
> Thee Nymphomation
>
> 'If you cannot afford an executioner, a duty executioner
> will be appointed to you free of charge by the court'

See, now that's the useful sort of information I was fishing for... :-)

-Kelly


From kellycoinguy at gmail.com  Thu Mar  8 04:35:27 2012
From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 21:35:27 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Stepping into a Pile of Crap (Maybe)
In-Reply-To: <CAOJFdbJDT9tv8Rp032ri0yCjP6QqxM6zZ0+3y_jytjEezUOv3A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPy8RwbpoUsLkmwDPzT_kQjWQYXg9j_Sz5N1b+FSZbKUHPWKwQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAOJFdbJDT9tv8Rp032ri0yCjP6QqxM6zZ0+3y_jytjEezUOv3A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPy8Rwb-oxDz8RLH=Zo6pe4=2jK70tve_O7MyScb_w-wZm0Urw@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 12:47 PM, Mike Dougherty <msd001 at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 1:11 PM, Kelly Anderson <kellycoinguy at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hopefully this isn't too far off topic... but I know some of you have
>> had run ins with bad PR in the past, and I thought this might be a
>> good place to get some advice. You're the smartest people I know
>> collectively.
>>
>> Recently, there has been a dust up about president Obama's web subsite
>> for African Americans.
>>
>> http://www.barackobama.com/african-americans
>>
>> Some people, me included, think this is racist. To point out this
>> fact, I am considering the creation of a parallel web site...
>
> You know that McDonalds (likely other mega-corps) have "targeted"
> marketing subsites?
>
> from: http://www.mcdonalds.com/us/en/websites.html
>
> http://www.365black.com/365black/index.jsp is "Deeply Rooted in the Community"
> also: "At McDonald's?, we believe that African-American culture and
> achievement should be celebrated 365 days a year ? not just during
> Black History Month."
>
> You could also go here:
> http://www.myinspirasian.com/html/english/index.html#/?slide=0
> and take the Asian Phrases Challenge. ?It makes me wonder if they
> would target a Latino community by quizzing their knowledge of
> Spanish.

OK, this is just sick and wrong... not only that, but it doesn't work
(the asian phrases web page)...

> Latino: http://www.meencanta.com/
> Nope. ?They do, however, provide a link to switch to English. ?I guess
> that's good.

Isn't that special.

> In case you aren't fitting into a specific ethnicity though, you might
> be a member of the children (http://www.happymeal.com/en_US/) or
> tweens (http://www.mcworld.com/) demographic. ?While there you (or
> your unsuspecting children) will be subject to lines like "Hey kids,
> this is advertising!" ?(is that Truth in Advertising that it is
> in-fact advertising?)
>
> Kelly, I say go for it. ?You are in good company. ?If anyone objects
> you can point blame at others and claim to only be doing what other
> successful companies are clearly getting away with.

I am just sick and tired of all the political correctness that's going
around. Seems to be killing us as a society. Thanks for the thumbs
up... If I turn up dead, it's either my ex wife, or the Democrat SWAT
team. :-)

-Kelly



From kellycoinguy at gmail.com  Thu Mar  8 04:46:36 2012
From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 21:46:36 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Doomsday Oil Price: (was RIP: Peak Oil)
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armgX_iVGhZmYRsR3Rn_fFx4konMqXs9Q+iYrZsSQtfJnbA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1330122650.78329.YahooMailNeo@web164502.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<CALAdGNSK_WdsxcEgexwQ=qw+DQYJ2XP7PekJyWD=ky_G9Br1rg@mail.gmail.com>
	<1330201603.28318.YahooMailNeo@web164506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<CALAdGNS8p-_cqR5vRoqGV1YA336fRmGBxq_X+M0=qH0Q0HjMAg@mail.gmail.com>
	<00da01ccf414$666c2b30$33448190$@att.net>
	<CALAdGNSws9mgiYM46Q9-V-EF4R17kuKFQzdtWt5m9FLP+nyhTQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<1330380003.19357.YahooMailNeo@web164503.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<20120228072720.GR7343@leitl.org> <4F4D34CB.9050006@libero.it>
	<CAPy8RwbpQN5+YLh_ZNcdr=VBFRa=QTVuFv-MvjPPquAM-oqVww@mail.gmail.com>
	<20120229112356.GB7343@leitl.org>
	<CAPy8RwYE8r8mhsuueQi77U8Jw3PFsXbiyu9kEdNdj2kwCSiXtw@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1203061903190.24482@tau.ceti.pl>
	<CAPy8RwZ5K6f17KbemgWz_6CXBwmrPKEszuTWJt=f2-RMtNCurQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAL_armgX_iVGhZmYRsR3Rn_fFx4konMqXs9Q+iYrZsSQtfJnbA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPy8RwYZa-okQqf=8Sd-tPF6NmdgnEQSuEQ4=d7GMf5vn39owQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 12:23 PM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 6:58 PM, Kelly Anderson ?wrote:
>> "Eurozone finance ministers agreed to a new $172 billion bailout
>> package (WSJ) for Greece early this morning, along with a 53 percent
>> write-down of Greek debt by the country's private sector creditors."
>>
>
> Just to be clear. This is political spin.
>
> Greece won't see a penny of this 'bailout'.
> This is another bailout of the French and German banks. These banks
> are bust, just as Greece is bust. Greece cannot make the payments due
> to the bankers, so the Eurozone will lend even more money to Greece so
> that Greece can immediately pay it on to the bankers. It is a farce.
> Refusing to accept that it all has to be written off, bankrupt banks
> closed down and everything restarted with a clean sheet,.
> Like Iceland has done.

My original assertion was that Europe is messed up. Whether it is
Greece that is messed up, or French banks, it's still a mess. If at
some point everyone is going to default on everything, then maybe the
current congress is doing the right thing by borrowing all the money
they can while the borrowing is good. It's all going to hell tomorrow
anyway, follows this line of reasoning, so why not live high on the
hog until the hog spontaneously combusts.

> Now I hear that Greece is considering selling Corfu to raise money! I
> bet a few billionaire bankers will have their snouts in that trough.

I understand they are going to rent the Parthenon out for private
parties too... that's symbolic of course, but it's a symbol of just
how messed up they are.

If shooting one Archduke can cause that bit of trouble 90 years ago in
Europe, where is this all going to end?

-Kelly



From kellycoinguy at gmail.com  Thu Mar  8 04:59:37 2012
From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 21:59:37 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Doomsday Oil Price: (was RIP: Peak Oil)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1203072021200.23013@tau.ceti.pl>
References: <1330122650.78329.YahooMailNeo@web164502.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<CALAdGNSK_WdsxcEgexwQ=qw+DQYJ2XP7PekJyWD=ky_G9Br1rg@mail.gmail.com>
	<1330201603.28318.YahooMailNeo@web164506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<CALAdGNS8p-_cqR5vRoqGV1YA336fRmGBxq_X+M0=qH0Q0HjMAg@mail.gmail.com>
	<00da01ccf414$666c2b30$33448190$@att.net>
	<CALAdGNSws9mgiYM46Q9-V-EF4R17kuKFQzdtWt5m9FLP+nyhTQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<1330380003.19357.YahooMailNeo@web164503.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<20120228072720.GR7343@leitl.org> <4F4D34CB.9050006@libero.it>
	<CAPy8RwbpQN5+YLh_ZNcdr=VBFRa=QTVuFv-MvjPPquAM-oqVww@mail.gmail.com>
	<20120229112356.GB7343@leitl.org>
	<CAPy8RwYE8r8mhsuueQi77U8Jw3PFsXbiyu9kEdNdj2kwCSiXtw@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1203061903190.24482@tau.ceti.pl>
	<CAPy8RwZ5K6f17KbemgWz_6CXBwmrPKEszuTWJt=f2-RMtNCurQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1203072021200.23013@tau.ceti.pl>
Message-ID: <CAPy8Rwayp5ZtXyrZ3qUCUMyLZrK3p7J0sfC_c5HHHd05ruMRGg@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 1:16 PM, Tomasz Rola <rtomek at ceti.pl> wrote:
> On Wed, 7 Mar 2012, Kelly Anderson wrote:
>> Come on... some people with lots of money are still idiots. Two words:
>> George Soros... nuff said.
>
> I'm not sure about this. My understanding of idiocy is such that rich
> idiots become poor idiots very quickly. So, to judge where this particular
> guy is heading, I would need some data on his finances. OTOH, if he is an
> idiot but has good advisors... Yep, complicated.

George Soros is not a financial idiot. He is a financial genius.
According to some, he is sitting on an extremely large cache of
physical gold. If he manages to melt down the world economy, he could
easily end up being the richest man on earth. The policies that he
promotes would seem to be pushing us in that direction, so no, I do
not think he is a financial idiot, I think he is willing to flush the
world down the toilet to end up being the richest man on earth. Aside
from that, I also think that he really does want a one world
government, and melting down all of the sovereign nations is the
shortest path to achieving that dubious goal.

> [...]
>> Sucks to be you. This is a real shame.
>
> Really depends. If after all I land on top of this, maybe it will suck
> less, maybe I will even like it :-). Life is a process.

Hey, life sucks for me too some days and in some ways. Can happen in
the greatest country in the world.

>> >> Do we really need to plan 30 years ahead in energy? What would that
>> >> long term a plan even look like? What would it even say?
>> >
>> > I guess it should start like this: "Those who don't plan their future will
>> > have none. Yes they may be alive, only spending their days in Ethernal
>> > Present, not remembering and not prospecting."
>>
>> Nice quote.
>
> You can cite me any way you want :-).
>
>> However, it side steps the main question. What would a
>> long term energy plan look like? What would it say? Would it say
>> things like "We want to have 20% of of the transportation sector's
>> energy to be solar photovoltaic by 2035."??? What would it say? How
>> would that affect decisions made today? Is it just an excuse for more
>> government meddling in the private sector?
>
> I guess there can be both "theoretic" plans and real plans. The real ones
> are backed by real numbers. Unfortunately, access to real numbers might be
> hard. For example, is it possible to have prognosis of oil available in
> the next 50 years, 100% certain? No, if for nothing else, two reasons:
> there are companies who could loose value if real numbers made them look
> ugly and twice, to be even close to "absolutely certain" would require
> doing much more research. I might be wrong, but I don't think process of
> oil making had been replicated in lab. Synfuel is not oil.

Synfuel is equivalent to oil in most important ways... It lacks some
of the longer chain exotics, but most refining removes those anyway.
Pure hexane and octane would be just fine for running your ape around
in a rolling can.

> Besides, it is somewhat hard to prognose about progress. Hundred+ years
> ago, prognosis was that London would be inevitably covered by horse
> manure, based on city/population growth speed and their expected
> transportation needs.

And in 1850 there was great concern over the shortage of whale oil too...

> The prognosis was ok, it just didn't mention cars.
>
> Fifty+ years ago, there was much talking about Moon/Mars/Jupiter bases and
> other such fancy stuff (energy, food, illnesses - all solved).
>
> Those prognoses were ok, too. They just forgot that people really don't
> care about this more than they care about some boysband breaking up. Or
> they care about being cool and up to date, and space missions don't look
> cool anymore (apart from space shooters for PS3).
>
> So... so much about long term planning. I suspect most of this is some
> form of masturbation. Unless you can put your hand on real numbers. I
> suspect 50 years ago there were some thinkers who realized space age
> required commitment hard to find in human race. Their voice was not good
> enough masterbator, so it was lost in noise (assuming they wanted to talk
> about it).

There were people listening to Arthur C. Clarke in the 40s, they just
weren't spending money.

> With real numbers and with lots of simplification, it is possible to make
> some simulation and based on them, some plans. Like World3 model from
> "Limits to growth"/"Beyond the limits". Problem is, again, that such
> simulations are not cool.

Again, you started this conversation saying that only government is
long term thinking enough to solve the energy problem. First, I don't
think government usually solves problems, at least not without a LOT
of bad unintended consequences. Second, most governments think more
short term than most good established corporations. Intel is working
at least ten years ahead of production in their research. What's the
government doing that reaches that far into the future? The only
examples I can think of are military.

I doubt there is ONE government employee reading this list (other than
the bots at the NSA, hi bots!)

> Do we need any transportation after 2035?

I predict that there will be more transportation then than there is now.

-Kelly


From hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu  Thu Mar  8 11:46:42 2012
From: hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu (Henry Rivera)
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2012 06:46:42 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Stepping into a Pile of Crap (Maybe)
In-Reply-To: <mailman.555.1331182006.825.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.555.1331182006.825.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <4A5C8026-AC20-43FB-88DE-F6EBD59A6973@alumni.Virginia.edu>

Kelly, you may succeed in getting attention and money, but I'd suggest it won't be worth the negativity that will be directed at you if it get national attention. Also, you may not get as much attention as you think as there are already plenty of sites arguing that democrats are racist, republicans are racist, Obama is racist, etc. and none have got much national media attention. Firstly, your premise that the Obama support page is racist will be a difficult sell. I for one don't see it as racist. I won't bother searching, but I suspect you can find all sorts of groups supporting or opposing all the candidates. There's probably already some sites like whiteprideforrebublicans.org or christiansagainstobama.org and they aren't satirical. Categories of people collectively trying to gain support among others perceived to be in that category for their preferred candidate will always exist (even if the validity of those categories is questionable (race is a social construct)). Categories of minority groups doing this socially accepted in particular as it is seen as a way to compensate for the majority groups which have been doing this from the beginning via groups like the KKK. Secondly, your site won't be seen as satire despite your intent (Poe's Law). Instead you'll look like a racist. Do what you like. If you are looking for specific consequences, you could get hate mail, threats, DDOS attacks, and bad press for your other business ventures. Some people will get what you are up to, but I think it will be lost on most.
-Henry



From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Thu Mar  8 13:19:59 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2012 14:19:59 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Character Recognition (was Re: AI milestones)
In-Reply-To: <CAPy8RwYBYQ9mby-KmWtSyn9zE-6-WJKkQOBkyLDsza2Vj4hSWQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPy8Rwb+k2qJMWxL=L6K-=c0BidTRDx6-j29RoMtUhaHUDHdBw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPoR7a50v_MBfx9KHZUfe4NqqSYFeCz3aqfn7Oah7PL-KO1qDw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPy8RwYBYQ9mby-KmWtSyn9zE-6-WJKkQOBkyLDsza2Vj4hSWQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a7so0JR6X1CU3RHbuyHMMuf19HnaDw=yceNPhz9xedG4g@mail.gmail.com>

On 7 March 2012 19:19, Kelly Anderson <kellycoinguy at gmail.com> wrote:

> The amazing thing is that even after it works fairly well, people
> don't want to use it. I occasionally do dictation of text messages on
> my phone, and tried to use Dragon on my computer, but I tire of it...
> because it isn't 100% accurate is part of it, but the other part is
> that my neural pathways are just better at typing well than speaking
> well...
>

Do you like dictating in general? Personally, I do not.

This is the real issue. Office automation, seventies-style, in law firms
was based on dictaphones and multiple secretaries with electric
typewriters, sometimes even making use of "libraries" of arguments same as
we with cut&paste and templates. There are people I know who wrote entire
books by dictaphones.

I am of a later generation, when lawyers already had PCs on their own
desks... :-)

Where does it leave us with voice interface? Basically, I have two reasons
still to like it:

- Redundance is good anyway. For that matter, I am not much in love with
the mouse itself, but as long as I have an interface with keyboard
alternatives and shortcuts, nothing wrong in having one at hand.

- What I discovered is that all the point with dictation is not really
"hands free", but "eyes free". If you have to input text by quoting or by
translating on the fly or while examining documents, what it saves you is
the effort of mowing the eyes back and forth from the paper to the screen
and the other way around, something that can be *extremely" tiring.

- Devices that do not have a decent keyboard (smartphones, tablets, even
micronetbooks) or scenarios where you are keeping your device with one hand
while standing are also obvious opportunities to put it at work.


-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Thu Mar  8 13:23:38 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2012 14:23:38 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Extra gene keeps mice cancer-free and permanently skinny
In-Reply-To: <1331153758.39586.YahooMailNeo@web164505.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <CADDVf2KNssiybOTVS4c+9xO4oFXrtcG1W4E4doixag5xic3b6w@mail.gmail.com>
	<1331153758.39586.YahooMailNeo@web164505.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a6hOJ5rjMzTZoREfgQE0Jv1=qDXQALqHu86DY_Um_YJWQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 7 March 2012 21:55, The Avantguardian <avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com>wrote:

> This is called *germline* genetic engineering. It is considered the
> ultimate in playing God. Find out if human germline engineering is legal in
> your nation.
>

If it is not, now you know what ticket you should buy with all those
frequent-flyer points that sit unused... :-)

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From spike66 at att.net  Thu Mar  8 17:36:45 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2012 09:36:45 -0800
Subject: [ExI] jaw dropping etc: targeted ad for targretin
Message-ID: <02b801ccfd52$0877db40$196791c0$@att.net>

 

This was a mind blower.  The datamining mechanisms of the advertising
industry somehow found me based (apparently) on my Google history.  I just
got this in my inbox.  Has anyone else here received this ad?  Note the
second paragraph:

 

http://www.unitedpharmacies-uk.com/Targretin_Bexarotene_75mg_100_Capsules_p_
1803.html

 

spike

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From natasha at natasha.cc  Thu Mar  8 18:15:01 2012
From: natasha at natasha.cc (natasha at natasha.cc)
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2012 13:15:01 -0500
Subject: [ExI] ?Risks: Global Catastrophic, Extinction, Existential and ...
Message-ID: <20120308131501.c9alcn6ehw4w8gww@webmail.natasha.cc>



   The idea of humans dealing with risks of all sorts, most often  
catastrophic risks such as asteroids hitting the earth, a nuclear war,  
or a world threatening virus have had theorists thinking for eons  
about the future. More recently, we are concerned with global warming,  
bio warfare, runaway nanoassemblers and super AI/AGI entities. Most of  
these risks lie outside the personal issue of radical life extension.?

   If we consider radical?human life?extension, ?what type of risk  
might there be?? (Extinction risk is obvious, but I'm wondering if  
extinction risk is more relevant to a species rather than a person.)?  
So, I started thinking about the elements of a person that keep  
him/her alive: foresight, insight, intelligence, creativity,  
willingness to change, etc. I also thought about what might keep a  
person from not continuing to exist: depression/sadness.? Then I  
thought about what someone else might do to keep me from  
existing:?inflicting his/her values/beliefs onto my sphere of  
existence that would endanger my right to live. I arrived  
back?at?morphological freedom, as understood by More on one hand and  
Sandberg on the other, which pertains to a negative right --? a right  
to exist and a right not to be coerced to exist. But again, here the  
behavior of morphological freedom is a freedom and does not answer the  
question of?what could a risk be that reflects a person's choice/right  
to live/exist?

   It?may be simply a matter of discrimination about a right not to die.

   Does anyone have thoughts on this?

   Thanks,

   Natasha



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From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Thu Mar  8 21:34:38 2012
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2012 13:34:38 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ExI] Extra gene keeps mice cancer-free and permanently skinny
In-Reply-To: <CAPoR7a6hOJ5rjMzTZoREfgQE0Jv1=qDXQALqHu86DY_Um_YJWQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADDVf2KNssiybOTVS4c+9xO4oFXrtcG1W4E4doixag5xic3b6w@mail.gmail.com>
	<1331153758.39586.YahooMailNeo@web164505.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<CAPoR7a6hOJ5rjMzTZoREfgQE0Jv1=qDXQALqHu86DY_Um_YJWQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1331242478.10792.YahooMailNeo@web164501.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>


>________________________________
>From: Stefano Vaj <stefano.vaj at gmail.com>
>To: The Avantguardian <avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com>; ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> 
>Sent: Thursday, March 8, 2012 5:23 AM
>Subject: Re: [ExI] Extra gene keeps mice cancer-free and permanently skinny
>
>
>On 7 March 2012 21:55, The Avantguardian <avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>This is called *germline* genetic engineering. It is considered the ultimate in playing God. Find out if human germline engineering is legal in your nation.
>>
>If it is not, now you know what ticket you should buy with all those frequent-flyer points that sit unused... :-)

Ooops, would you look at that! Death and all his friends still has the run of the *whole* asylum. Better luck next year. ;-)?
?
Stuart LaForge


"The state that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards, and its fighting by fools." -Thucydides.



From moulton at moulton.com  Thu Mar  8 22:13:11 2012
From: moulton at moulton.com (F. C. Moulton)
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2012 14:13:11 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Stepping into a Pile of Crap (Maybe)
In-Reply-To: <CAPy8RwY3c7VGJxep3H19MW=G2QoKD_Cj6=JAOSpcS9_WwXwa5Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPy8RwbpoUsLkmwDPzT_kQjWQYXg9j_Sz5N1b+FSZbKUHPWKwQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CACMJz99i8PDiwCaRzXehE43up8DQeo+fgZkOS81NgNh-fan0vQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPy8RwY3c7VGJxep3H19MW=G2QoKD_Cj6=JAOSpcS9_WwXwa5Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4F592EF7.7080406@moulton.com>

On 03/07/2012 08:31 PM, Kelly Anderson wrote:
>  The blacks were
> far far far better off before Lyndon Johnson screwed them over with
> his advertising of government assistance to impoverished communities.


Do you have any real evidence for your assertion? If so present it;
because what you are saying is contracted by what I found with a simple
google search.  Go to the PDF document:
   http://www.censusgov/prod/2001pubs/p60-214.pdf
And look on the graph on page 4 listing Poverty Rates by Race from 1959
to 2000.  Notice that the poverty rate for Blacks Fell after Johnson
enacted his programs.  But also so did the rate for White population.
And it looks like the the poverty rate for both Whites and Blacks was
falling prior to Johnson's programs.

So it looks to me like the issue of race and poverty is very complex and
does not lend itself to simplistic arguments.  Particularly simplistic
arguments which do not agree with the data at hand. Now if you want to
challenge the data then provide some clear well thought out criticism.

But please this is the Extropian list and I really think we need to
maintain high levels of discussion and avoid hand waving BS.

Fred


From moulton at moulton.com  Thu Mar  8 21:49:22 2012
From: moulton at moulton.com (F. C. Moulton)
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2012 13:49:22 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Doomsday Oil Price: (was RIP: Peak Oil)
In-Reply-To: <CAPy8Rwayp5ZtXyrZ3qUCUMyLZrK3p7J0sfC_c5HHHd05ruMRGg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1330122650.78329.YahooMailNeo@web164502.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<CALAdGNSK_WdsxcEgexwQ=qw+DQYJ2XP7PekJyWD=ky_G9Br1rg@mail.gmail.com>
	<1330201603.28318.YahooMailNeo@web164506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<CALAdGNS8p-_cqR5vRoqGV1YA336fRmGBxq_X+M0=qH0Q0HjMAg@mail.gmail.com>
	<00da01ccf414$666c2b30$33448190$@att.net>
	<CALAdGNSws9mgiYM46Q9-V-EF4R17kuKFQzdtWt5m9FLP+nyhTQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<1330380003.19357.YahooMailNeo@web164503.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<20120228072720.GR7343@leitl.org> <4F4D34CB.9050006@libero.it>
	<CAPy8RwbpQN5+YLh_ZNcdr=VBFRa=QTVuFv-MvjPPquAM-oqVww@mail.gmail.com>
	<20120229112356.GB7343@leitl.org>
	<CAPy8RwYE8r8mhsuueQi77U8Jw3PFsXbiyu9kEdNdj2kwCSiXtw@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1203061903190.24482@tau.ceti.pl>
	<CAPy8RwZ5K6f17KbemgWz_6CXBwmrPKEszuTWJt=f2-RMtNCurQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1203072021200.23013@tau.ceti.pl>
	<CAPy8Rwayp5ZtXyrZ3qUCUMyLZrK3p7J0sfC_c5HHHd05ruMRGg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4F592962.3060106@moulton.com>

On 03/07/2012 08:59 PM, Kelly Anderson wrote:

>  I think he is willing to flush the
> world down the toilet to end up being the richest man on earth. 

Do you really have any solid evidence that George Soros is willing to
flush the world down the toilet?  I mean real evidence not some hand
waving  BS.  So if you have evidence then present it, if you have no
evidence then perhaps an apology and retraction is in order.

Fred





From pharos at gmail.com  Thu Mar  8 21:55:03 2012
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2012 21:55:03 +0000
Subject: [ExI] ?Risks: Global Catastrophic, Extinction,
	Existential and ...
In-Reply-To: <20120308131501.c9alcn6ehw4w8gww@webmail.natasha.cc>
References: <20120308131501.c9alcn6ehw4w8gww@webmail.natasha.cc>
Message-ID: <CAL_armgk5XNFF7Xtt_-KjFsJ+3DAXSgPpqv6zhWbq2mX4_h=yw@mail.gmail.com>

2012/3/8  Natasha wrote:
> If we consider radical?human life?extension, ?what type of risk might there
> be?? (Extinction risk is obvious, but I'm wondering if extinction risk is
> more relevant to a species rather than a person.)? So, I started thinking
> about the elements of a person that keep him/her alive: foresight, insight,
> intelligence, creativity, willingness to change, etc. I also thought about
> what might keep a person from not continuing to exist: depression/sadness.
> Then I thought about what someone else might do to keep me from
> existing:?inflicting his/her values/beliefs onto my sphere of existence that
> would endanger my right to live. I arrived back?at?morphological freedom, as
> understood by More on one hand and Sandberg on the other, which pertains to
> a negative right --? a right to exist and a right not to be coerced to
> exist. But again, here the behavior of morphological freedom is a freedom
> and does not answer the question of?what could a risk be that reflects a
> person's choice/right to live/exist?
>
>


Humans have no experience of radical life extension. e.g. 1,000 year lifespans.

So we are guessing what it will be like. Asking 80-90 year olds is not
much help because they will mostly have ageing health problems to cope
with.

I expect boredom and 'seen it all before' attitudes to appear in a lot
of cases. Ennui is a good word.

Now I know that this claim will immediately have all the 20-30 year
old list members protesting that they will *never* get bored and will
always find something new and interesting to occupy their time. But
from the 70 year POV youngsters are already noted for having strange
and impractical opinions.  ;)

And, of course, Exi list members are not much like your average member
of the public at large. It won't just be transhumanists that live
longer. Joe six-pack will also be faced with 1,000 years of ball games
and X-factor shows.

Western society is already pretty heavily medicated to get through
life, so long life spans could well need chemical and psychological
mental support. But if we have the tech to increase lifespan, then
with a bit of luck we will also have the tech to enable people to
survive the experience.


BillK



From moulton at moulton.com  Thu Mar  8 22:20:44 2012
From: moulton at moulton.com (F. C. Moulton)
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2012 14:20:44 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Stepping into a Pile of Crap (Maybe)
In-Reply-To: <4F592EF7.7080406@moulton.com>
References: <CAPy8RwbpoUsLkmwDPzT_kQjWQYXg9j_Sz5N1b+FSZbKUHPWKwQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CACMJz99i8PDiwCaRzXehE43up8DQeo+fgZkOS81NgNh-fan0vQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPy8RwY3c7VGJxep3H19MW=G2QoKD_Cj6=JAOSpcS9_WwXwa5Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<4F592EF7.7080406@moulton.com>
Message-ID: <4F5930BC.2060807@moulton.com>

On 03/08/2012 02:13 PM, F. C. Moulton wrote:

>    http://www.censusgov/prod/2001pubs/p60-214.pdf
> 

Looks like the URL got corrupted; should be:

http://www.census.gov/prod/2001pubs/p60-214.pdf

Fred



From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Thu Mar  8 22:20:56 2012
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2012 14:20:56 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ExI] ?Risks: Global Catastrophic, Extinction,
	Existential and ...
In-Reply-To: <20120308131501.c9alcn6ehw4w8gww@webmail.natasha.cc>
References: <20120308131501.c9alcn6ehw4w8gww@webmail.natasha.cc>
Message-ID: <1331245256.80154.YahooMailNeo@web164502.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

>________________________________
>From: "natasha at natasha.cc" <natasha at natasha.cc>
>To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org; extrobritannia at yahoogroups.com 
>Sent: Thursday, March 8, 2012 10:15 AM
>Subject: [ExI] ?Risks: Global Catastrophic, Extinction, Existential and ...
>
>
>The idea of humans dealing with risks of all sorts, most often catastrophic risks such as asteroids hitting the earth, a nuclear war, or a world threatening virus have had theorists thinking for eons about the future. More recently, we are concerned with global warming, bio warfare, runaway nanoassemblers and super AI/AGI entities. Most of these risks lie outside the personal issue of radical life extension.? 
>If we consider radical?human life?extension, ?what type of risk might there be?? (Extinction risk is obvious, but I'm wondering if extinction risk is more relevant to a species rather than a person.)? So, I started thinking about the elements of a person that keep him/her alive: foresight, insight, intelligence, creativity, willingness to change, etc. I also thought about what might keep a person from not continuing to exist: depression/sadness.? Then I thought about what someone else might do to keep me from existing:?inflicting his/her values/beliefs onto my sphere of existence that would endanger my right to live. I arrived back?at?morphological freedom, as understood by More on one hand and Sandberg on the other, which pertains to a negative right --? a right to exist and a right not to be coerced to exist. But again, here the behavior of morphological freedom is a freedom and does not answer the question of?what could a risk be that
 reflects a person's choice/right to live/exist?
>It?may be simply a matter of discrimination about a right not to die.
>Does anyone have thoughts on this?

Greetings, Natasha. In so far as I understand what you are asking, I think successful radical life extension would create few truly novel personal risks, The risks such a life-extended person would face would be the same kinds of risks as normally, or even?short-lived people, it is just that such a person would have more exposure to them because of their longer life.?Think about it in terms of passenger deaths per transportation mile. You would travel more miles living a thousand years than living?one hundred, therefore be more at risk for an accident. Same could be said of viruses. In?a certain?sense viruses try to hack your bodies immune system so?the longer you live, the more opportunitues they get to crack your code. Likewise, in a thousand years of surfing, shark attack will probably be something you encounter.?
?
I imagine most of the truly novel risks would?have a?phychological/psychiatric basis. Like suffering from a?bicententenial crisis?or engaging in extremely risky behavior in the pursuit of novelty. e.g. sex in free fall like the?eagles or something.??
?
Stuart LaForge


"The state that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards, and its fighting by fools." -Thucydides.



From gsantostasi at gmail.com  Thu Mar  8 21:55:55 2012
From: gsantostasi at gmail.com (Giovanni Santostasi)
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2012 15:55:55 -0600
Subject: [ExI] ?Risks: Global Catastrophic, Extinction,
	Existential and ...
In-Reply-To: <20120308131501.c9alcn6ehw4w8gww@webmail.natasha.cc>
References: <20120308131501.c9alcn6ehw4w8gww@webmail.natasha.cc>
Message-ID: <CAL+RtPeryB6vPtpnu5MCsjm1Y8LbqAwtR6JPL7G5rdYNw-oxuQ@mail.gmail.com>

Happy woman's day Natasha.
Giovanni


On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 12:15 PM, <natasha at natasha.cc> wrote:

> The idea of humans dealing with risks of all sorts, most often
> catastrophic risks such as asteroids hitting the earth, a nuclear war, or a
> world threatening virus have had theorists thinking for eons about the
> future. More recently, we are concerned with global warming, bio warfare,
> runaway nanoassemblers and super AI/AGI entities. Most of these risks lie
> outside the personal issue of radical life extension.
>
> If we consider radical human life extension,  what type of risk might
> there be?  (Extinction risk is obvious, but I'm wondering if extinction
> risk is more relevant to a species rather than a person.)  So, I started
> thinking about the elements of a person that keep him/her alive: foresight,
> insight, intelligence, creativity, willingness to change, etc. I also
> thought about what might keep a person from not continuing to exist:
> depression/sadness.  Then I thought about what someone else might do to
> keep me from existing: inflicting his/her values/beliefs onto my sphere of
> existence that would endanger my right to live. I arrived
> back at morphological freedom, as understood by More on one hand and
> Sandberg on the other, which pertains to a negative right --  a right to
> exist and a right not to be coerced to exist. But again, here the behavior
> of morphological freedom is a freedom and does not answer the question
> of what could a risk be that reflects a person's choice/right to live/exist?
>
> It may be simply a matter of discrimination about a right not to die.
>
> Does anyone have thoughts on this?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Natasha
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From anders at aleph.se  Thu Mar  8 23:36:02 2012
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2012 23:36:02 +0000
Subject: [ExI] ?Risks: Global Catastrophic, Extinction,
 Existential and ...
In-Reply-To: <20120308131501.c9alcn6ehw4w8gww@webmail.natasha.cc>
References: <20120308131501.c9alcn6ehw4w8gww@webmail.natasha.cc>
Message-ID: <4F594262.8040306@aleph.se>

On 08/03/2012 18:15, natasha at natasha.cc wrote:
>
> If we consider radical human life extension,  what type of risk might 
> there be?  (Extinction risk is obvious, but I'm wondering if 
> extinction risk is more relevant to a species rather than a person.)
>

In Nick's latest studies of existential risks he recognizes that there 
might be axiological existential risks - threats to the well-being and 
value of the species. So some critics of life extension might actually 
think that it is an xrisk. For example, we might create a situation 
where we have indefinite but not very valuable lives (filled with ennui 
and stagnation, yet afraid of dying), yet this culture is a so strong 
attractor that it can never be escaped (perhaps because all resources 
end up controlled by the immortals), and hence prevents humanity from 
ever reaching its true potential. This is a rather strong claim that 
depends on 1) life extension having strong general negative effects that 
are not outweighed by benefits, 2) once instituted it becomes a 
permanent and unavoidable state. I think the onus on people willing to 
argue 1 and 2 is pretty heavy.

Another common claim is that life extension would increase extinction 
risks by making us evolve slower or reduce our flexibility. This of 
course misses that we can evolve using our own means or recognize the 
need to maintain flexible decision structures.


>   So, I started thinking about the elements of a person that keep 
> him/her alive: foresight, insight, intelligence, creativity, 
> willingness to change, etc. I also thought about what might keep a 
> person from not continuing to exist: depression/sadness.  Then I 
> thought about what someone else might do to keep me from 
> existing: inflicting his/her values/beliefs onto my sphere of 
> existence that would endanger my right to live. I arrived 
> back at morphological freedom, as understood by More on one hand and 
> Sandberg on the other, which pertains to a negative right --  a right 
> to exist and a right not to be coerced to exist. But again, here the 
> behavior of morphological freedom is a freedom and does not answer the 
> question of what could a risk be that reflects a person's choice/right 
> to live/exist?
>

In my scheme of rights, I used the right to life and the right to 
freedom as the foundations (if I remember it right, it was a while 
ago...) The right to life is a response to the risk of being killed or 
being threatened with being killed. The right to freedom is a response 
to the risk of being coerced or having freedom of action reduced. I 
think this is a general property of rights in this kind of liberal 
negative rights framework: each right has a corresponding risk it is the 
response to.

I guess the opposite to a risk of (unwanted) death is a risk of having 
an unwanted life. Much ethics deals with the question of whether there 
are lives not worth living, and what is allowed to be done to avoid 
them. This is not much of a problem of my fairly simple morphological 
freedom scheme, since it just places autonomy at the top and allows 
rational adults to decide whatever they want. If I do not want to die 
and have the means to extend my life (without infringing the rights of 
others), then I have a right to choose it.

However, in real life rights are never as pure negative rights as they 
are in liberal ethics, and quite often involve or even need positive 
rights - claims on other people for help. We are also entangled in thick 
and messy social and cultural bonds that not just influence us but cause 
"voluntary" reductions of our freedom (when I promise something I reduce 
my future options to lie, if I want to remain a honest person). This is 
where a right to life might become tricky in terms of how life extension 
plays out against the other links - but while this is where the cultural 
and social action is, it is also so individual and messy that formal 
philosophy cannot say much except generalities.

Life extension will always be risky because it is going into uncharted 
waters by definition: nobody will have lived as long as the frontier 
cohort, and we will not know if there are some subtle problem with 
living a century, a millennium or an eon extra. But while such risks 
should be taken seriously they are no valid argument against trying: 
some risks appear very worth taking.

-- 
Anders Sandberg,
Future of Humanity Institute
Oxford Martin School
Faculty of Philosophy
Oxford University



From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Fri Mar  9 12:07:45 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2012 13:07:45 +0100
Subject: [ExI] ?Risks: Global Catastrophic, Extinction,
	Existential and ...
In-Reply-To: <20120308131501.c9alcn6ehw4w8gww@webmail.natasha.cc>
References: <20120308131501.c9alcn6ehw4w8gww@webmail.natasha.cc>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a6EJxHYiaMy_XHYp9SPdn6516OBb0Z-2Bgn8s6HaHjo2w@mail.gmail.com>

2012/3/8 <natasha at natasha.cc>

> (Extinction risk is obvious, but I'm wondering if extinction risk is more
> relevant to a species rather than a person.)


I think that by now the "interest of the species" is an ideological
construct who does not really bear closer inspection either in descriptive
or normative terms.

Defining OTOH in a more rigorous fashion "existential risk" as the opposite
of "Darwinian success", I think that no final argument exists as to what
the best strategy may be in terms of specific lifespans.

What can be said is that we are programmed like everybody else for a
"survival instinct", as a consequence of the fact that not exhibiting it is
in most circumstances hardly an adaptive behaviour. So, seeking immortality
is a normal trait of our ethology, and one I personally see no compelling
reasons to change...

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From Carsten.Zander at t-online.de  Fri Mar  9 12:02:20 2012
From: Carsten.Zander at t-online.de (Carsten Zander)
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2012 13:02:20 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Are we children in an  !!educational!!  virtual reality?
Message-ID: <4F59F14C.2080305@t-online.de>

Are we "children"?

"The people of the future have decided not to put their descendents 
directly into this infinitely diverse future world, but instead let 
their children grow up in a somewhat less complex, yet instructive and 
problem-oriented world."

Full text:
http://www.exometa.com/vr.htm


Carsten





From eugen at leitl.org  Fri Mar  9 12:22:28 2012
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2012 13:22:28 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Are we children in an  !!educational!!  virtual reality?
In-Reply-To: <4F59F14C.2080305@t-online.de>
References: <4F59F14C.2080305@t-online.de>
Message-ID: <20120309122228.GN9891@leitl.org>

On Fri, Mar 09, 2012 at 01:02:20PM +0100, Carsten Zander wrote:
> Are we "children"?
>
> "The people of the future have decided not to put their descendents  
> directly into this infinitely diverse future world, but instead let  
> their children grow up in a somewhat less complex, yet instructive and  
> problem-oriented world."

Apart from the classical objection (how do you falsify this?),
the physical reality has not to be too distinct from virtual
reality (orelse there's no point in having a useless sandbox
around) which instantly runs into huge problems in how we understand
simulation complexity.

It's a really weak idea.

> Full text:
> http://www.exometa.com/vr.htm


From giulio at gmail.com  Fri Mar  9 13:54:51 2012
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2012 14:54:51 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Are we children in an !!educational!! virtual reality?
In-Reply-To: <4F59F14C.2080305@t-online.de>
References: <4F59F14C.2080305@t-online.de>
Message-ID: <CAKTCJyfxVV+dxzES5xCb+-jdEJ0_+UB4M4zi8eB=-RvrAVWCxA@mail.gmail.com>

Nice! Especially the conclusion.

On Fri, Mar 9, 2012 at 1:02 PM, Carsten Zander
<Carsten.Zander at t-online.de> wrote:
> Are we "children"?
>
> "The people of the future have decided not to put their descendents directly
> into this infinitely diverse future world, but instead let their children
> grow up in a somewhat less complex, yet instructive and problem-oriented
> world."
>
> Full text:
> http://www.exometa.com/vr.htm
>
>
> Carsten
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From msd001 at gmail.com  Fri Mar  9 15:15:51 2012
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2012 10:15:51 -0500
Subject: [ExI] ?Risks: Global Catastrophic, Extinction,
	Existential and ...
In-Reply-To: <20120308131501.c9alcn6ehw4w8gww@webmail.natasha.cc>
References: <20120308131501.c9alcn6ehw4w8gww@webmail.natasha.cc>
Message-ID: <CAOJFdbJ68=KDx1cxe7k9Lwx_sT+_bGg45x+4C_gzrZjXboWJCA@mail.gmail.com>

2012/3/8  <natasha at natasha.cc>:
> If we consider radical?human life?extension, ?what type of risk might there
> be?? (Extinction risk is obvious, but I'm wondering if extinction risk is
> more relevant to a species rather than a person.)? So, I started thinking
> about the elements of a person that keep him/her alive: foresight, insight,
> intelligence, creativity, willingness to change, etc. I also thought about
> what might keep a person from not continuing to exist: depression/sadness.

Recalcitrant Obsolescence.  By resisting change perceived as a "fad"
one might be inclined to maintain their identity even as it grows
farther out of compliance with the current mainstream.  I'd imagine
that the main stream would grow much wider to accommodate a reasonable
amount of this; there will inevitably be those who defend their right
to become living fossils.  Maybe this isn't personal existential risk
in the sense of death making that identity pattern unavailable.
However, those who continue to "grow" with the exponential increases
in technology would perceive even steady linear growth as merely
logarithmic until no growth is perceptible.

Instead of reliving one's youth through music of 1960's, 70's, 80's it
would be "Hits from three centuries near the turn of the millennium"
:)  So many comical exaggerations of 100 year lifespan simply
stretched out to 1000 or more...



From rtomek at ceti.pl  Fri Mar  9 17:40:30 2012
From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola)
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2012 18:40:30 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [ExI] Doomsday Oil Price: (was RIP: Peak Oil)
In-Reply-To: <CAPy8Rwayp5ZtXyrZ3qUCUMyLZrK3p7J0sfC_c5HHHd05ruMRGg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1330122650.78329.YahooMailNeo@web164502.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<CALAdGNSK_WdsxcEgexwQ=qw+DQYJ2XP7PekJyWD=ky_G9Br1rg@mail.gmail.com>
	<1330201603.28318.YahooMailNeo@web164506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<CALAdGNS8p-_cqR5vRoqGV1YA336fRmGBxq_X+M0=qH0Q0HjMAg@mail.gmail.com>
	<00da01ccf414$666c2b30$33448190$@att.net>
	<CALAdGNSws9mgiYM46Q9-V-EF4R17kuKFQzdtWt5m9FLP+nyhTQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<1330380003.19357.YahooMailNeo@web164503.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<20120228072720.GR7343@leitl.org> <4F4D34CB.9050006@libero.it>
	<CAPy8RwbpQN5+YLh_ZNcdr=VBFRa=QTVuFv-MvjPPquAM-oqVww@mail.gmail.com>
	<20120229112356.GB7343@leitl.org>
	<CAPy8RwYE8r8mhsuueQi77U8Jw3PFsXbiyu9kEdNdj2kwCSiXtw@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1203061903190.24482@tau.ceti.pl>
	<CAPy8RwZ5K6f17KbemgWz_6CXBwmrPKEszuTWJt=f2-RMtNCurQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1203072021200.23013@tau.ceti.pl>
	<CAPy8Rwayp5ZtXyrZ3qUCUMyLZrK3p7J0sfC_c5HHHd05ruMRGg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1203091713450.13181@tau.ceti.pl>

On Wed, 7 Mar 2012, Kelly Anderson wrote:

> On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 1:16 PM, Tomasz Rola <rtomek at ceti.pl> wrote:
> > On Wed, 7 Mar 2012, Kelly Anderson wrote:
> >> Come on... some people with lots of money are still idiots. Two words:
> >> George Soros... nuff said.
> >
> > I'm not sure about this. My understanding of idiocy is such that rich
> > idiots become poor idiots very quickly. So, to judge where this particular
> > guy is heading, I would need some data on his finances. OTOH, if he is an
> > idiot but has good advisors... Yep, complicated.
> 
> George Soros is not a financial idiot. He is a financial genius.
> According to some, he is sitting on an extremely large cache of
> physical gold. If he manages to melt down the world economy, he could
> easily end up being the richest man on earth. The policies that he
> promotes would seem to be pushing us in that direction, so no, I do
> not think he is a financial idiot, I think he is willing to flush the
> world down the toilet to end up being the richest man on earth. Aside
> from that, I also think that he really does want a one world
> government, and melting down all of the sovereign nations is the
> shortest path to achieving that dubious goal.

I think the very fact we discuss his plans on this forum is a proof he 
should rethink his strategy. A villain exposed is a villain with his 
trousers down. There must be more effective way of doing harm to humanity, 
like playing guitar loudly and badly in a public place. So, instead of 
this "I am bad" daydreaming, he should go around the world with a guitar, 
doing wrong everywhere, making people aggressive with his play, causing 
city-wide riots against guitar playing etc.

This would be something bad. Even worse if he tried the same with a 
violin. Or if he started printing lousy books and distributing them 
around, instigating riots agains literacy...

But gold trading? Being the richest MITW? BTW, there is always 
someone-the-richest man. How is the current one not as bad as the next 
one? Or a previous one?

Perhaps you have just failed victim of a current one's propaganda, let's 
call him Antisoros for simplicity.

> > [...]
> >> Sucks to be you. This is a real shame.
> >
> > Really depends. If after all I land on top of this, maybe it will suck
> > less, maybe I will even like it :-). Life is a process.
> 
> Hey, life sucks for me too some days and in some ways. Can happen in
> the greatest country in the world.

Yep, there was a lot of suckiness in Russia. Probably still there is some. 
The bigger the country, the bigger suck can hide inside.

> >> However, it side steps the main question. What would a
> >> long term energy plan look like? What would it say? Would it say
> >> things like "We want to have 20% of of the transportation sector's
> >> energy to be solar photovoltaic by 2035."??? What would it say? How
> >> would that affect decisions made today? Is it just an excuse for more
> >> government meddling in the private sector?

[...]

> > Besides, it is somewhat hard to prognose about progress. Hundred+ years
> > ago, prognosis was that London would be inevitably covered by horse
> > manure, based on city/population growth speed and their expected
> > transportation needs.
> 
> And in 1850 there was great concern over the shortage of whale oil too...

Right.

[...]
> > With real numbers and with lots of simplification, it is possible to make
> > some simulation and based on them, some plans. Like World3 model from
> > "Limits to growth"/"Beyond the limits". Problem is, again, that such
> > simulations are not cool.
> 
> Again, you started this conversation saying that only government is
> long term thinking enough to solve the energy problem.

Did I really state anything like this? My control of "govt-ass kissing" 
mania of mine went wonky, obviously. That's seriously scary...

or...

Maybe I didn't say anything like this...

> First, I don't
> think government usually solves problems, at least not without a LOT
> of bad unintended consequences. Second, most governments think more
> short term than most good established corporations. Intel is working
> at least ten years ahead of production in their research. What's the
> government doing that reaches that far into the future? The only
> examples I can think of are military.

I myself am a bit sceptical about government's ability to solve problems, 
as long as government is safe from it. So, unemployment is not their 
biggest problem (up to a certain moment, when it begins to propel social 
unrest) but on the other hand, avian flu and SARS are their problem and I 
expect them to be very effective in solving this, and maybe I can prosper 
too.

I could also speculate that other cases of problem solving is just effect 
of accidents coming in right order.

However, I am unwilling to treat any group as uniform, homogenous mass, 
which is why I am unwilling to engage in 
corporate/government/Muslims/Jews/capitalism bashing. At the same time, I 
am unwilling to engage in group-ass-kissing of any above mentioned (and 
others) groups.

> I doubt there is ONE government employee reading this list (other than
> the bots at the NSA, hi bots!)

Au contraire, go bots, go! There, Osama!

There might be some corporate researchers lurking out here. They may be 
prohibited or choose not to talk. I wouldn't be surprised.

> > Do we need any transportation after 2035?
> 
> I predict that there will be more transportation then than there is now.

Depends. There is no transportation without things to be transported. And 
besides basic needs (food, shelter building/improving, weaponry) and some 
luxury (paper books, wine) the rest can be delivered with less 
transportation than nowadays, I guess. Only slower or by the wire.

Back to the problem of longterm planning.

As I said, once we have some real numbers... There are laws of physics. 
Having ten billion people, one needs this and this much of soil to feed 
them. Or this and this much of sea water to grow algae or fish. There 
doesn't seem possible to give them all an ipod - but maybe it is. If you 
can hook them on the net by means of cables plugged into their skulls, 
they can spend most of their days in the dark body magasines. Very low 
energy, all this.

Even less energy, legalize pot, sell it away on subsidied price. No need 
for hi-tek. All happy. Even better, legalize hard drugs. In Russia, 
junkies cook themselves something called krokodil. The drug is toxic, it 
harms internal organs and skin in place of injection gets green/grey, 
hence the name krokodil. The average life span of krokodil user is about 
2-3 years. The upside - it can be made in a kitchen.

However, such vegetation is not life at all.

So perhaps one should first plan a kind of life one would like to have, 
next confronting it with energy bill.

Besides, any serious plan like this would have to consider population 
size. This probably means, any plans on the net not touching this topic 
are just masterbators (a polite name for this is propaganda).

Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.      **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home    **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...      **
**                                                                 **
** Tomasz Rola          mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com             **


From spike66 at att.net  Fri Mar  9 17:46:31 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2012 09:46:31 -0800
Subject: [ExI] homebrew cold freon bath super computer
Message-ID: <000901ccfe1c$909efe20$b1dcfa60$@att.net>

We have a tool at work which is a cold Freon bath: it uses the kind of Freon
we can still have, no chlorine, and maintains the Freon down to minus 20
celcius.  I heard from a colleague they were getting rid of it.  I have half
a mind to try to buy it at auction if I can get it for a song.  Reasoning:
we could set up a heat sink for a homebrew supercomputer.  

 

Freon is a low conductor, so we should be able to submerge a circuit card in
that stuff, ja?  A couple years ago a cell phone won a big chess tournament
which included two grandmasters (it beat one of them and drew the other, not
by phoning a friend but by doing all the calcs right there in realtime.)  So
modern phones make plenty of MIPS (processor hipsters, help me here please.)
I also know that phones are considered electronic waste once they get about
three yrs old, tossed into the trash. 

 

Idea: we get some application which is calculation intensive but does not
require a huge amount of communication between nodes such as chess or
Mersenne prime search, collect a bunch of these discarded phones, take the
processor cards out of them, remove the batteries and replace with an
external power source, figure out some kind of I/O system such as bluetooth,
stack the cards, submerge the whole mess in cold freon and BOOM, we have a
great poor-man's highly parallel super computer, ja?

 

Would that be a cool science fair project or what?

 

spike

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From spike66 at att.net  Fri Mar  9 17:56:52 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2012 09:56:52 -0800
Subject: [ExI] homebrew cold freon bath super computer
Message-ID: <000e01ccfe1e$026ccae0$074660a0$@att.net>

 

 

From: spike [mailto:spike66 at att.net] 
Subject: homebrew cold freon bath super computer

 

We have a tool at work which is a cold Freon bath. submerge the whole mess
in cold freon and BOOM, we have a great poor-man's highly parallel super
computer, ja? spike

 

 

 

 

Another thought: in the last several years, I have heard a lot of moaning
about how processor clock speeds suddenly stopped increasing, settling
around 4 GHz.  But it looks to me like we have enjoyed tremendous progress,
not in calculations per unit time, but rather in calculations per unit
energy.  That these little phone processors can do so much is really
exciting, because there are so many useful tasks that do not require
trillions of calculations, but perhaps only a few billion.  Chess is a good
example: it is playing at the level of the best humans using less than a
watt.  If we can do all that for just that little bit of energy, we can
stack them closely and carry away the waste heat using a simple device.
This reduces the latency between nodes and opens up a whole nuther
collection of capabilities and a whole nuther field of cool challenges.

 

Processor hipsters, have we had major advances in calculations per unit
energy, or watt?

 

spike

 

 

 

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From eugen at leitl.org  Fri Mar  9 19:43:26 2012
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2012 20:43:26 +0100
Subject: [ExI] homebrew cold freon bath super computer
In-Reply-To: <000e01ccfe1e$026ccae0$074660a0$@att.net>
References: <000e01ccfe1e$026ccae0$074660a0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <20120309194326.GA9891@leitl.org>

On Fri, Mar 09, 2012 at 09:56:52AM -0800, spike wrote:
>  
> 
> We have a tool at work which is a cold Freon bath. submerge the whole mess

Where do you work now, if it's not a secret?

> in cold freon and BOOM, we have a great poor-man's highly parallel super
> computer, ja? spike

Fluorinert & Co is *really* expensive. People have been using submersion
in mineral oil, though. As long as you don't use hard drives (SSDs are fine)
mineral oil works well enough, albeit messy.
 
> Another thought: in the last several years, I have heard a lot of moaning
> about how processor clock speeds suddenly stopped increasing, settling

Purely sequential people are screwed, yes. Notice that multithreaded people
will be equally screwed at sufficiently high core count (no memory coherency
for you), but they yet blissfully unaware.

> around 4 GHz.  But it looks to me like we have enjoyed tremendous progress,
> not in calculations per unit time, but rather in calculations per unit
> energy.  That these little phone processors can do so much is really

Sure, Koomey's Law:
http://spectrum.ieee.org/podcast/computing/hardware/is-there-a-moores-law-for-energy-efficiency

> exciting, because there are so many useful tasks that do not require
> trillions of calculations, but perhaps only a few billion.  Chess is a good
> example: it is playing at the level of the best humans using less than a
> watt.  If we can do all that for just that little bit of energy, we can
> stack them closely and carry away the waste heat using a simple device.
> This reduces the latency between nodes and opens up a whole nuther
> collection of capabilities and a whole nuther field of cool challenges.

Watercooled racks and since recently whole turnkey supercomputers are
available.

Now 3D-stacking with TSV with forced (microliquidics) liquid (metal as
in Ga or K/Na eutectic?) cooling has not made mainstream yet. 

I anticipate liquid cooling in enthusiast APU/memory stack setups very soon
now (couple more years) and then in the mainstream by 2020 latest.
 
> Processor hipsters, have we had major advances in calculations per unit
> energy, or watt?

Sure, websearch Koomey's Law.


From dan_ust at yahoo.com  Fri Mar  9 20:02:41 2012
From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan)
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2012 12:02:41 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ExI] ?Risks: Global Catastrophic, Extinction,
	Existential and ...
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armgk5XNFF7Xtt_-KjFsJ+3DAXSgPpqv6zhWbq2mX4_h=yw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20120308131501.c9alcn6ehw4w8gww@webmail.natasha.cc>
	<CAL_armgk5XNFF7Xtt_-KjFsJ+3DAXSgPpqv6zhWbq2mX4_h=yw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1331323361.32032.YahooMailNeo@web160603.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

On Thursday, March 8, 2012 4:55 PM BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:
> 2012/3/8? Natasha wrote:
>> If we consider radical human life extension,? what type of risk might there
>> be?? (Extinction risk is obvious, but I'm wondering if extinction risk is
>> more relevant to a species rather than a person.)? So, I started thinking
>> about the elements of a person that keep him/her alive: foresight, insight,
>> intelligence, creativity, willingness to change, etc. I also thought about
>> what might keep a person from not continuing to exist: depression/sadness.
>> Then I thought about what someone else might do to keep me from
>> existing: inflicting his/her values/beliefs onto my sphere of existence that
>> would endanger my right to live. I arrived back at morphological freedom, as
>> understood by More on one hand and Sandberg on the other, which pertains to
>> a negative right --? a right to exist and a right not to be coerced to
>> exist. But again, here the behavior of morphological freedom is a freedom
>> and does not answer the question of what could a risk be that reflects a
>> person's choice/right to live/exist?
> 
> Humans have no experience of radical life extension. e.g. 1,000 year lifespans.
> 
> So we are guessing what it will be like. Asking 80-90 year olds is not
> much help because they will mostly have ageing health problems to cope
> with.
> 
> I expect boredom and 'seen it all before' attitudes to appear in a lot
> of cases. Ennui is a good word.
> 
> Now I know that this claim will immediately have all the 20-30 year
> old list members protesting that they will *never* get bored and will
> always find something new and interesting to occupy their time. But
> from the 70 year POV youngsters are already noted for having strange
> and impractical opinions.? ;)

There might be something else going here. A typical 70 year old is not exactly the same as a typical 20 to 30 year old with simply more years of life experiences. The 70 year old is likely to be functioning in a different way because of aging. E.g., she or he might be less active, less driven, and even suffer from depression. (E.g., let's say you love to snowboard, but now that you're older you either can't do this at all or ache and are in pain for days afterward, and you just can't keep up like you used to. You're no longer having fun not because you've done this before, but because you've done much better before and your current performance and enjoyment are way below your former expectations.) And this decline might have been going on for decades, so that the 70 year old's perspective here is different not simply because she has been there done that, but because her brain has altered to make her not seek out new experiences, no have great
 expectations, and so forth.

Presumably, if radical life extension is successful, it's not going to be extending a wretched decrepit state*, but revivifying the aged and preventing aging in the not yet aged. So, I think some of these problems will be attenuated if not avoided completely.

Regards,

Dan

* It also seems to me that some of the improvements in life expectancy have been slowing down aging or at least avoiding some of the usual things that go along with aging. Watching old movies and old TV shows, I tend to see people who are relatively young looking worn out and much older. Mayhap many people alive today are aging less slowly already -- albeit not radically enough to live, say, thousand year life spans.
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From eugen at leitl.org  Fri Mar  9 20:30:49 2012
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2012 21:30:49 +0100
Subject: [ExI] ?Risks: Global Catastrophic, Extinction,
	Existential and	...
In-Reply-To: <1331323361.32032.YahooMailNeo@web160603.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <20120308131501.c9alcn6ehw4w8gww@webmail.natasha.cc>
	<CAL_armgk5XNFF7Xtt_-KjFsJ+3DAXSgPpqv6zhWbq2mX4_h=yw@mail.gmail.com>
	<1331323361.32032.YahooMailNeo@web160603.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20120309203049.GF9891@leitl.org>

On Fri, Mar 09, 2012 at 12:02:41PM -0800, Dan wrote:

> > Now I know that this claim will immediately have all the 20-30 year
> > old list members protesting that they will *never* get bored and will
> > always find something new and interesting to occupy their time. But
> > from the 70 year POV youngsters are already noted for having strange
> > and impractical opinions.? ;)
> 
> There might be something else going here. A typical 70 year old is not exactly the same as a typical 20 to 30 year old with simply more years of life experiences. The 70 year old is likely to be functioning in a different way because of aging. E.g., she or he might be less active, less driven, and even suffer from depression. (E.g., let's say you love to snowboard, but now that you're older you either can't do this at all or ache and are in pain for days afterward, and you just can't keep up like you used to. You're no longer having fun not because you've done this before, but because you've done much better before and your current performance and enjoyment are way below your former expectations.) And this decline might have been going on for decades, so that the 70 year old's perspective here is different not simply because she has been there done that, but because her brain has altered to make her not seek out new experiences, no have great
>  expectations, and so forth.

Really really really bad things happen at aging, e.g. see
http://chronopause.com/index.php/2011/05/30/going-going-gone/
and subsequent parts (the tiny hyperlink at the bottom of each part).
 
> Presumably, if radical life extension is successful, it's not going to be extending a wretched decrepit state*, but revivifying the aged and preventing aging in the not yet aged. So, I think some of these problems will be attenuated if not avoided completely.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Dan
> 
> * It also seems to me that some of the improvements in life expectancy have been slowing down aging or at least avoiding some of the usual things that go along with aging. Watching old movies and old TV shows, I tend to see people who are relatively young looking worn out and much older. Mayhap many people alive today are aging less slowly already -- albeit not radically enough to live, say, thousand year life spans.

See attitudes of supercentenarials. Ennui and glumness as well as compressed time flux 
is not intrinsic to information acquisition. I'd consider them artifacts of aging, and
reasonably easily fixed (e.g. consider a radically changed outlook during an intensive
psychedelic drug experience).


From spike66 at att.net  Fri Mar  9 20:59:36 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2012 12:59:36 -0800
Subject: [ExI] homebrew cold freon bath super computer
In-Reply-To: <20120309194326.GA9891@leitl.org>
References: <000e01ccfe1e$026ccae0$074660a0$@att.net>
	<20120309194326.GA9891@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <007601ccfe37$89b3a550$9d1aeff0$@att.net>


... On Behalf Of Eugen Leitl
...

On Fri, Mar 09, 2012 at 09:56:52AM -0800, spike wrote:
>  
> 
>> ...We have a tool at work which is a cold Freon bath. submerge the whole
mess

>...Where do you work now, if it's not a secret?

Lockheeed.  Note that this answer assumes an open-minded definition of the
term "work."  I am not currently doing an engineering task.  But things are
looking up.  I have an interview a week from today, and in my entire career,
I have never had a refusal after interviewing.  Each of my 8 interviews
resulted in an offer, so I am hopeful.  If I don't get eliminated because of
advanced age, I will be back in the saddle soon.

>> in cold freon and BOOM, we have a great poor-man's highly parallel super
computer, ja? spike

>...Fluorinert & Co is *really* expensive. People have been using submersion
in mineral oil, though. As long as you don't use hard drives (SSDs are fine)
mineral oil works well enough, albeit messy...

Ja, mineral oil, even cooking oil would probably do.  It would be an
interesting experiment to try distilled water.  The conductivity is low
enough, I bet it would work as a cooling fluid.  It's clean, green and
practically free.  If that works, I would try tap water.  I might do it just
to see if a phone works underwater.  Has anyone tried it? 

>> ... processor clock speeds suddenly stopped increasing...

>...Purely sequential people are screwed, yes. Notice that multithreaded
people will be equally screwed at sufficiently high core count (no memory
coherency for you), but they yet blissfully unaware...

Screwed only if we depend on continuously increasing computing power.  That
was a most wonderful drug, which was with us our entire lives, but we can
adjust to computers which improve slowly.  Reasoning:  look where we ended
up.  Jaysus!  We hold a supercomputer in the palm of our hand, and we THROW
THE DAMN THING IN THE TRASH when it is three years old!  We HAVE terrific
computers!  Now!  So, we are not screwed if the extended version of Moore's
law peters out on us.  Software continues to improve.

...
 
>>... Processor hipsters, have we had major advances in calculations per
unit energy, or watt?

>...Sure, websearch Koomey's Law.
_______________________________________________


Thanks!  Will do.  Is this a great time to be alive or watt?  {8-]

spike



From spike66 at att.net  Fri Mar  9 21:10:21 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2012 13:10:21 -0800
Subject: [ExI] apparently wordplay is genetic
Message-ID: <008001ccfe39$0a773fc0$1f65bf40$@att.net>

As you know, I indulge in wordplay at every opportunity, if not more so.
This morning my five year old son was not quite well.  It was an ambiguous
case, and he does not like missing school, so we allowed him to make the
call.  His mother said "Isaac, would you rather go to school today, or stay
home sick?"  He replied "If I went to school today I would be homesick."  

 

Haaaaahahahahahahaaaaahahahahahaaaaa.  {8^D

 

spike  

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From rtomek at ceti.pl  Fri Mar  9 22:03:52 2012
From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola)
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2012 23:03:52 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [ExI] homebrew cold freon bath super computer
In-Reply-To: <000901ccfe1c$909efe20$b1dcfa60$@att.net>
References: <000901ccfe1c$909efe20$b1dcfa60$@att.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1203092211300.13181@tau.ceti.pl>

On Fri, 9 Mar 2012, spike wrote:

> We have a tool at work which is a cold Freon bath: it uses the kind of 
> Freon we can still have, no chlorine, and maintains the Freon down to 
> minus 20 celcius.  I heard from a colleague they were getting rid of it.  
> I have half a mind to try to buy it at auction if I can get it for a 
> song.  Reasoning: we could set up a heat sink for a homebrew 
> supercomputer.
> 
> Freon is a low conductor, so we should be able to submerge a circuit 
> card in that stuff, ja?  A couple years ago a cell phone won a big chess 
> tournament which included two grandmasters (it beat one of them and drew 
> the other, not by phoning a friend but by doing all the calcs right 
> there in realtime.)  So modern phones make plenty of MIPS (processor 
> hipsters, help me here please.) I also know that phones are considered 
> electronic waste once they get about three yrs old, tossed into the 
> trash.
> 
> Idea: we get some application which is calculation intensive but does 
> not require a huge amount of communication between nodes such as chess 
> or Mersenne prime search, collect a bunch of these discarded phones, 
> take the processor cards out of them, remove the batteries and replace 
> with an external power source, figure out some kind of I/O system such 
> as bluetooth, stack the cards, submerge the whole mess in cold freon and 
> BOOM, we have a great poor-man's highly parallel super computer, ja?
> 
> Would that be a cool science fair project or what?

Or what, I think. I mean, if you'd like some results out of this, better 
aim for as much practicality as possible.

Used phones might be fine computing devices as long as you can have your 
software installed on them. Imagine making custom Android images for five 
different phone models. Without technical specs. And producers highly 
unwilling to cooperate. Some of Android phones had been rooted, some not. 
So this could be as easy as downloading root image or making one by 
yourself. You could also make the soft using Android SDK and install it as 
usual but I'm not sure this would give the best performance.

With some modifications, your plan could be doable:

1. Don't buy this freon bath, you won't need it. Instead, put X amount of 
cash into envelope.

2. Dig the phones out of trash, clean them up, install software updates 
and as many free apps as you can find, sell on eBay, put Y amount of 
cash into same envelope.

3. Take envelope, take (X+Y) bucks out, buy yourself used 100Mbps switch 
on eBay (5-8 ports should suffice for a start, but if you can spot 
cheap 16 ports, grab it). 1Gbps switch would be nicer (more future proof) 
but they eat more cash.

4a. For the rest of the cash buy yourself some cheap Linux based micros 
with ARM cpu and 200-something megs of ram, like BeagleBone or Raspberry 
Pi

4b. You may consider buying and dismantling old broken laptops - their 
cpus may have better floating point performance, should be cheaper than 
BeagleBones, plus you can sell unused parts - basically, anything from 
last 6-8 years should fit

5. Install your soft (Beowulf, maybe?), connect the plugs, run run run.

6. Don't worry about temperature, if you don't overclock you should be 
fine with air cooling (and maybe custom made big box with few grand 
voltage regulated 120+mm propellers and many holes) - but I would measure 
temps all the time, just in case.

At least this is how I would do this.

No matter if you go 4a or 4b route, the extra and most important bonus is, 
you don't need to reverse engineer the bloody phone to run what you need. 
One way or another you get a platform that is Linux friendly and runs 
your apps natively, whithout asking anybody for permission or 
circumventing whimsical EULAs.

Sorry if after modifications the plan is not exotic enough for you. Seems 
to me, exotic is what makes you tick :-).

6b. If you really want to use freon and will be unhappy without it, 
consider old fridge as supercomputer case. This will probably make your 
head explode when you start dealing with ice on circuits, but if only 
freon makes your day...

6c. You will have to keep disks out of the freezer all the time. This may 
contribute to their faster demise or you will make a custom box to keep 
them stable. I mean hard disks. Solids should be ok as long as you stay 
inside their working specs.

Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.      **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home    **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...      **
**                                                                 **
** Tomasz Rola          mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com             **


From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Fri Mar  9 22:14:10 2012
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2012 14:14:10 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ExI] Axiological Risk (was ? Risk:)
References: <20120308131501.c9alcn6ehw4w8gww@webmail.natasha.cc>
	<4F594262.8040306@aleph.se> 
Message-ID: <1331331250.63640.YahooMailNeo@web164506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

----- Original Message -----
> From: Anders Sandberg <anders at aleph.se>
> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Cc: 
> Sent: Thursday, March 8, 2012 3:36 PM
> Subject: Re: [ExI] ?Risks: Global Catastrophic, Extinction, Existential and ...
> 
> On 08/03/2012 18:15, natasha at natasha.cc wrote:
>> 
>> If we consider radical human life extension,? what type of risk might there 
> be?? (Extinction risk is obvious, but I'm wondering if extinction risk is 
> more relevant to a species rather than a person.)
>> 
> 
> In Nick's latest studies of existential risks he recognizes that there might 
> be axiological existential risks - threats to the well-being and value of the 
> species. So some critics of life extension might actually think that it is an 
> xrisk. For example, we might create a situation where we have indefinite but not 
> very valuable lives (filled with ennui and stagnation, yet afraid of dying), yet 
> this culture is a so strong attractor that it can never be escaped (perhaps 
> because all resources end up controlled by the immortals), and hence prevents 
> humanity from ever reaching its true potential. This is a rather strong claim 
> that depends on 1) life extension having strong general negative effects that 
> are not outweighed by benefits, 2) once instituted it becomes a permanent and 
> unavoidable state. I think the onus on people willing to argue 1 and 2 is pretty 
> heavy.

Axiological risk is an interesting point to raise. I can see why a humanist would try using such an argument against life-extension and transhuman tech in general. But I think that the weakness of this argument lies in the false assumptions of the universality and consistency?of human values, be they ethical or aesthetic, across space and time.
?
Because axiology is based on a relative value set, the?humanist must assume?their particular brand of?"western mainstream culture"?is the human norm and then cloak themselves in armor of "human values". But these very "human values" have undergone extensive evolution?themselves.?After all,?you will probably never have to pay?a weregild to a?woman?for slaying her husband in a meadhall during a drunken brawl, oh?son of Viking beserkers. And I seldomly consider the size of the lip-disks of my potential mates, despite their importance and sexiness in several very human tribes around the world. So there is a certain cultural narcisism that comes with such assumptions that?you could call, "the Golden Culture fallacy"?in analogy to the Golden Age that never existed.
?
Really what has been slowly defining and continually redefining what it means to be human over the aeons are not humanist philosophers but WOMEN. They are?the genetically conservative gatekeepers of the human form and function. If tomorrow women?all got together and decided that they wanted humanity to?be three feet tall, blue, and furry.?Simply by choosing their mates very carefully for a few hundred years, this task could be accomplished. Of course women prefer to?breed based on simple attraction and koinophilia, but that really is?a choice and?natural station?that they posses.???
?
While I may tip my hat to ethical and aesthetic axiology, I agree with Stefano that in the long term, the only value that truly matters is Darwinian survival value. And while women may have bred us to be acceptable at cocktail parties, the hirsute barbarian is not buried deeply beneath. So outside of hollywood, I think?the odds of unenhanced humans being held under the thumb of cowardly immortals who control everything is actually quite small. An immortal's head would still look the same on a revolutionary's pike.
?
I imagine that as more people get life-extension, their long-term outcomes would run the?spectrum from adaptive to pathological. Those that stagnate would be weeded out fairly quickly. Those that courageously?leave their comfort zone to test?their boundaries, will, in the long run, have no boundaries. Those that embrace change as it passes over them?will be loved by time and circumstance. That is the way of nature.
?
> Another common claim is that life extension would increase extinction risks by 
> making us evolve slower or reduce our flexibility. This of course misses that we 
> can evolve using our own means or recognize the need to maintain flexible 
> decision structures.

That is the death-mongers using life-extension as a strawman. The *real* issue is morphological freedom and self-directed evolution. You enable the technology for life-extension and you simultaneously enable the technology that would allow us to evolve into gigantic water-breathing bioluminescent freaks in the space?a single generation if we saw a survival advantage in doing so.
?
[...]
> However, in real life rights are never as pure negative rights as they are in 
> liberal ethics, and quite often involve or even need positive rights - claims on 
> other people for help. We are also entangled in thick and messy social and 
> cultural bonds that not just influence us but cause "voluntary" 
> reductions of our freedom (when I promise something I reduce my future options 
> to lie, if I want to remain a honest person). This is where a right to life 
> might become tricky in terms of how life extension plays out against the other 
> links - but while this is where the cultural and social action is, it is also so 
> individual and messy that formal philosophy cannot say much except generalities.

I am sensitive to the fact that there are many philosophies regarding rights and that many are probably more subtle than mine. But in the real world that exists outside of this fragile consensual dream-bubble of three square meals a day and warm bed at night, you have only?what rights you?willing to?assert and defend. And in over 3.5 billion years of life on this planet, species has?EVER asked anyones permission to exist.

?
> Life extension will always be risky because it is going into uncharted waters by 
> definition: nobody will have lived as long as the frontier cohort, and we will 
> not know if there are some subtle problem with living a century, a millennium or 
> an eon extra. But while such risks should be taken seriously they are no valid 
> argument against trying: some risks appear very worth taking.

Yes I certainly agree. If only to avoid the cultural and genetic stagnation that the humanists are warning us of. At some point a transhumanist somewhere must drop the "-ist" and become.
?
?
Stuart LaForge


"The state that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards, and its fighting by fools." -Thucydides.

"The state that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards, and its fighting by fools." -Thucydides.



From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Fri Mar  9 23:51:21 2012
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2012 15:51:21 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ExI] Axiological Risk (was ? Risk:)
In-Reply-To: <1331331250.63640.YahooMailNeo@web164506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <20120308131501.c9alcn6ehw4w8gww@webmail.natasha.cc>
	<4F594262.8040306@aleph.se>
	<1331331250.63640.YahooMailNeo@web164506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1331337081.33608.YahooMailNeo@web164506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

I was holding the ctrl key and?really don't want this to be misquoted:? "And in over 3.5 billion years of life on this planet, NO species has?EVER asked 
anyones permission to exist."



Stuart LaForge


"The state that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards, and its fighting by fools." -Thucydides. 


----- Original Message -----
> From: The Avantguardian <avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com>
> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Cc: 
> Sent: Friday, March 9, 2012 2:14 PM
> Subject: [ExI] Axiological Risk (was ? Risk:)
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Anders Sandberg <anders at aleph.se>
>> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
>> Cc: 
>> Sent: Thursday, March 8, 2012 3:36 PM
>> Subject: Re: [ExI] ?Risks: Global Catastrophic, Extinction, Existential and 
> ...
>> 
>> On 08/03/2012 18:15, natasha at natasha.cc wrote:
>>> 
>>> If we consider radical human life extension,? what type of risk might 
> there 
>> be?? (Extinction risk is obvious, but I'm wondering if extinction risk 
> is 
>> more relevant to a species rather than a person.)
>>> 
>> 
>> In Nick's latest studies of existential risks he recognizes that there 
> might 
>> be axiological existential risks - threats to the well-being and value of 
> the 
>> species. So some critics of life extension might actually think that it is 
> an 
>> xrisk. For example, we might create a situation where we have indefinite 
> but not 
>> very valuable lives (filled with ennui and stagnation, yet afraid of 
> dying), yet 
>> this culture is a so strong attractor that it can never be escaped (perhaps 
> 
>> because all resources end up controlled by the immortals), and hence 
> prevents 
>> humanity from ever reaching its true potential. This is a rather strong 
> claim 
>> that depends on 1) life extension having strong general negative effects 
> that 
>> are not outweighed by benefits, 2) once instituted it becomes a permanent 
> and 
>> unavoidable state. I think the onus on people willing to argue 1 and 2 is 
> pretty 
>> heavy.
> 
> Axiological risk is an interesting point to raise. I can see why a humanist 
> would try using such an argument against life-extension and transhuman tech in 
> general. But I think that the weakness of this argument lies in the false 
> assumptions of the universality and consistency?of human values, be they ethical 
> or aesthetic, across space and time.
> ?
> Because axiology is based on a relative value set, the?humanist must 
> assume?their particular brand of?"western mainstream culture"?is the 
> human norm and then cloak themselves in armor of "human values". But 
> these very "human values" have undergone extensive 
> evolution?themselves.?After all,?you will probably never have to pay?a weregild 
> to a?woman?for slaying her husband in a meadhall during a drunken brawl, oh?son 
> of Viking beserkers. And I seldomly consider the size of the lip-disks of my 
> potential mates, despite their importance and sexiness in several very human 
> tribes around the world. So there is a certain cultural narcisism that comes 
> with such assumptions that?you could call, "the Golden Culture 
> fallacy"?in analogy to the Golden Age that never existed.
> ?
> Really what has been slowly defining and continually redefining what it means to 
> be human over the aeons are not humanist philosophers but WOMEN. They are?the 
> genetically conservative gatekeepers of the human form and function. If tomorrow 
> women?all got together and decided that they wanted humanity to?be three feet 
> tall, blue, and furry.?Simply by choosing their mates very carefully for a few 
> hundred years, this task could be accomplished. Of course women prefer to?breed 
> based on simple attraction and koinophilia, but that really is?a choice 
> and?natural station?that they posses.???
> ?
> While I may tip my hat to ethical and aesthetic axiology, I agree with Stefano 
> that in the long term, the only value that truly matters is Darwinian survival 
> value. And while women may have bred us to be acceptable at cocktail parties, 
> the hirsute barbarian is not buried deeply beneath. So outside of hollywood, I 
> think?the odds of unenhanced humans being held under the thumb of cowardly 
> immortals who control everything is actually quite small. An immortal's head 
> would still look the same on a revolutionary's pike.
> ?
> I imagine that as more people get life-extension, their long-term outcomes would 
> run the?spectrum from adaptive to pathological. Those that stagnate would be 
> weeded out fairly quickly. Those that courageously?leave their comfort zone to 
> test?their boundaries, will, in the long run, have no boundaries. Those that 
> embrace change as it passes over them?will be loved by time and circumstance. 
> That is the way of nature.
> ?
>> Another common claim is that life extension would increase extinction risks 
> by 
>> making us evolve slower or reduce our flexibility. This of course misses 
> that we 
>> can evolve using our own means or recognize the need to maintain flexible 
>> decision structures.
> 
> That is the death-mongers using life-extension as a strawman. The *real* issue 
> is morphological freedom and self-directed evolution. You enable the technology 
> for life-extension and you simultaneously enable the technology that would allow 
> us to evolve into gigantic water-breathing bioluminescent freaks in the space?a 
> single generation if we saw a survival advantage in doing so.
> ?
> [...]
>> However, in real life rights are never as pure negative rights as they are 
> in 
>> liberal ethics, and quite often involve or even need positive rights - 
> claims on 
>> other people for help. We are also entangled in thick and messy social and 
>> cultural bonds that not just influence us but cause "voluntary" 
>> reductions of our freedom (when I promise something I reduce my future 
> options 
>> to lie, if I want to remain a honest person). This is where a right to life 
> 
>> might become tricky in terms of how life extension plays out against the 
> other 
>> links - but while this is where the cultural and social action is, it is 
> also so 
>> individual and messy that formal philosophy cannot say much except 
> generalities.
> 
> I am sensitive to the fact that there are many philosophies regarding rights and 
> that many are probably more subtle than mine. But in the real world that exists 
> outside of this fragile consensual dream-bubble of three square meals a day and 
> warm bed at night, you have only?what rights you?willing to?assert and defend. 
> And in over 3.5 billion years of life on this planet, species has?EVER asked 
> anyones permission to exist.
> 
> ?
>> Life extension will always be risky because it is going into uncharted 
> waters by 
>> definition: nobody will have lived as long as the frontier cohort, and we 
> will 
>> not know if there are some subtle problem with living a century, a 
> millennium or 
>> an eon extra. But while such risks should be taken seriously they are no 
> valid 
>> argument against trying: some risks appear very worth taking.
> 
> Yes I certainly agree. If only to avoid the cultural and genetic stagnation that 
> the humanists are warning us of. At some point a transhumanist somewhere must 
> drop the "-ist" and become.
> ?
> ?
> Stuart LaForge
> 
> 
> "The state that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its 
> thinking done by cowards, and its fighting by fools." -Thucydides.
> 
> "The state that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its 
> thinking done by cowards, and its fighting by fools." -Thucydides.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> 



From anders at aleph.se  Sat Mar 10 00:38:45 2012
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2012 00:38:45 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Axiological Risk (was ? Risk:)
In-Reply-To: <1331331250.63640.YahooMailNeo@web164506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <20120308131501.c9alcn6ehw4w8gww@webmail.natasha.cc>
	<4F594262.8040306@aleph.se>
	<1331331250.63640.YahooMailNeo@web164506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4F5AA295.80201@aleph.se>

On 09/03/2012 22:14, The Avantguardian wrote:
> Axiological risk is an interesting point to raise. I can see why a 
> humanist would try using such an argument against life-extension and 
> transhuman tech in general. But I think that the weakness of this 
> argument lies in the false assumptions of the universality and 
> consistency of human values, be they ethical or aesthetic, across 
> space and time.   Because axiology is based on a relative value set, 
> the humanist must assume their particular brand of "western mainstream 
> culture" is the human norm and then cloak themselves in armor of 
> "human values". 

Axiology doesn't have to be based on a relative value set. There are 
certainly people around that think that there might be a One True 
Eternal Value System, but that we currently do not know it, for 
instance. They might say that we cannot evaluate whether there is 
axiological risk in a lot of future scenarios, but that scenarios where 
humans stop being experiencers or evaluators of value (for example by 
devolving) would represent axiological hazards no matter what the OTEVS is.

As always, there is plenty of philosophy on the topic.
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/value-theory/
Whether one will find it trivial hairsplitting or profound insights is 
very personal.

> While I may tip my hat to ethical and aesthetic axiology, I agree with 
> Stefano that in the long term, the only value that truly matters is 
> Darwinian survival value.

But is that good in itself, good for something, or just a neutral state 
of affairs? If the latter, we could just as well choose not to survive - 
not just axiological xrisks but all xrisks cease to matter.


-- 
Anders Sandberg,
Future of Humanity Institute
Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University



From spike66 at att.net  Sat Mar 10 01:38:36 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2012 17:38:36 -0800
Subject: [ExI] homebrew cold freon bath super computer
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1203092211300.13181@tau.ceti.pl>
References: <000901ccfe1c$909efe20$b1dcfa60$@att.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1203092211300.13181@tau.ceti.pl>
Message-ID: <00ab01ccfe5e$83e510b0$8baf3210$@att.net>



>... On Behalf Of Tomasz Rola
Subject: Re: [ExI] homebrew cold freon bath super computer

On Fri, 9 Mar 2012, spike wrote:

>> We have a tool at work which is a cold Freon bath... Would that be a cool
science fair project or what?

>...Or what, I think. I mean, if you'd like some results out of this, better
aim for as much practicality as possible...

Ja, I think you are right.  The Freon bath coming available caused me to
think of the idea of a stack of low-end processors, but it is waay overkill
for that application, a solution in search of a problem.  Now I need to
think of something to use that cold Freon.

>...Used phones might be fine computing devices as long as you can have your
software installed on them. Imagine making custom Android images for five
different phone models...

I need to have all identical phones, objection noted.  I don't want to
master several different proprietary protocols.  I find it sufficiently
annoying to learn a new systems every couple years as it is.


>...With some modifications, your plan could be doable:

>...4a. For the rest of the cash buy yourself some cheap Linux based micros
with ARM cpu and 200-something megs of ram, like BeagleBone or Raspberry Pi

This I find interesting.  I might try that.  Those Pis are supposed to be
powerful and easily interfaced.  I can imagine setting a cluster of about
100 of those in an ordinary water bath cooling system dumping the heat into
a refrigerator, running something that is useful enough to take up room in
my fridge.  I think I can wire them together and figure out a way to bring
the signal out to a switch on the kitchen counter, perhaps by cutting a
notch in the door seal, or drilling a hole in the side of the refrigerator.
Good chance my bride will be less enthusiastic about this whole notion than
I am.

>...4b. You may consider buying and dismantling old broken laptops - ...

Possibly better performance than phones, but too much stuff there I don't
need.  Your Raspberry idea is better.

>...5. Install your soft (Beowulf, maybe?), connect the plugs, run run run.

Ja, but run what what what?  Folding at home?  Codebreakers?

>...6. Don't worry about temperature, if you don't overclock you should be
fine with air cooling (and maybe custom made big box with few grand voltage
regulated 120+mm propellers and many holes) - but I would measure temps all
the time, just in case...

Hard to say.  If I invest in 100 of these and want them in close quarters, I
need a major power supply.  I would think it would require a home
refrigerator scale cooling system.


>...Sorry if after modifications the plan is not exotic enough for you.
Seems to me, exotic is what makes you tick :-)... Tomasz Rola

Ja it is an aerospace engineer's thing.  Why make something simple and
straightforward, when it can be made complex and wonderful?

spike



From msd001 at gmail.com  Sat Mar 10 04:06:30 2012
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2012 23:06:30 -0500
Subject: [ExI] homebrew cold freon bath super computer
In-Reply-To: <00ab01ccfe5e$83e510b0$8baf3210$@att.net>
References: <000901ccfe1c$909efe20$b1dcfa60$@att.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1203092211300.13181@tau.ceti.pl>
	<00ab01ccfe5e$83e510b0$8baf3210$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAOJFdbLc6w_3d-Rt_0RWi-Yw0qWka1kpw330BkC=H3706mf5ew@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Mar 9, 2012 at 8:38 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> Hard to say. ?If I invest in 100 of these and want them in close quarters, I
> need a major power supply. ?I would think it would require a home
> refrigerator scale cooling system.

Are they going to be sufficiently faster if they're in a 1 cubic meter
volume than 10 meters apart?  I am curious if you can get enough solar
power to run the cpu far enough separated from each other that air
cooling is fine.  Either you've got a source for cheap ethernet cable
or you hookup $15 worth of usb wifi.  Maybe you don't have a router
than can talk to 100 nodes at once, but you might even be able to have
each node act as a forwarder so you can continue to scale this mesh
across your neighbors' fields too.  This won't be cheap to build but
you might manage to make it fairly sustainable.

>>...Sorry if after modifications the plan is not exotic enough for you.
> Seems to me, exotic is what makes you tick :-)... Tomasz Rola
>
> Ja it is an aerospace engineer's thing. ?Why make something simple and
> straightforward, when it can be made complex and wonderful?
>
BOTECs on how long it'll take for solar-powered computering mesh to
pay for itself doing "odd jobs"?  (consult Farmer's Almanac for your
local area average solar input)



From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 10 04:26:44 2012
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2012 20:26:44 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ExI] Axiological Risk (was ? Risk:)
In-Reply-To: <4F5AA295.80201@aleph.se>
References: <20120308131501.c9alcn6ehw4w8gww@webmail.natasha.cc>
	<4F594262.8040306@aleph.se>
	<1331331250.63640.YahooMailNeo@web164506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<4F5AA295.80201@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <1331353604.48755.YahooMailNeo@web164503.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

----- Original Message -----
> From: Anders Sandberg <anders at aleph.se>
> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Cc: 
> Sent: Friday, March 9, 2012 4:38 PM
> Subject: Re: [ExI] Axiological Risk (was ? Risk:)
> 
> On 09/03/2012 22:14, The Avantguardian wrote:
>> Axiological risk is an interesting point to raise. I can see why a humanist 
> would try using such an argument against life-extension and transhuman tech in 
> general. But I think that the weakness of this argument lies in the false 
> assumptions of the universality and consistency of human values, be they ethical 
> or aesthetic, across space and time.? Because axiology is based on a relative 
> value set, the humanist must assume their particular brand of "western 
> mainstream culture" is the human norm and then cloak themselves in armor of 
> "human values". 
> 
> Axiology doesn't have to be based on a relative value set. There are 
> certainly people around that think that there might be a One True Eternal Value 
> System, but that we currently do not know it, for instance. They might say that 
> we cannot evaluate whether there is axiological risk in a lot of future 
> scenarios, but that scenarios where humans stop being experiencers or evaluators 
> of value (for example by devolving) would represent axiological hazards no 
> matter what the OTEVS is.

As I am interested in approaches to quantifying and analyzing morality in ways other than game theory, I will look this OTEVS over when I have more time. Devolving is sometimes the only way forward. You shouldn't think of it as a one way process any more than complexification is. A tapeworm in the vacuum of space will simply die, less than useless. A tapeworm in the vacuum of space is a bad tapeworm. But a tapeworm in the context of rich and diverse biosphere is fully redeemable. Its descendants might someday ponder elliptical orbits. Or perhaps slightly more likely, the combination of tapeworm and host might someday find?themselves stronger than host alone, perhaps immune to amebic dysentary, for a real life anecdote. Do you see how wide the future is for that tapeworm? Do you see how the tapeworm is infinitely more valuable in a moral sense than?a rock?

> As always, there is plenty of philosophy on the topic.
> http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/value-theory/
> Whether one will find it trivial hairsplitting or profound insights is very 
> personal.

Interesting link. Thank you.
>> While I may tip my hat to ethical and aesthetic axiology, I agree with 
> Stefano that in the long term, the only value that truly matters is Darwinian 
> survival value.
> 
> But is that good in itself, good for something, or just a neutral state of 
> affairs? If the latter, we could just as well choose not to survive - not just 
> axiological xrisks but all xrisks cease to matter.

Life is anything but neutral. And I can think of about 10^12 cells that are distinctly pro- Anders. If you can't see moral worth in a tapeworm, then you won't see moral worth in yourself or?God for that matter,?should you ever meet him.

Stuart LaForge
?
"The state that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards, and its fighting by fools." -Thucydides.




From spike66 at att.net  Sat Mar 10 04:39:35 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2012 20:39:35 -0800
Subject: [ExI] homebrew cold freon bath super computer
In-Reply-To: <CAOJFdbLc6w_3d-Rt_0RWi-Yw0qWka1kpw330BkC=H3706mf5ew@mail.gmail.com>
References: <000901ccfe1c$909efe20$b1dcfa60$@att.net>	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1203092211300.13181@tau.ceti.pl>	<00ab01ccfe5e$83e510b0$8baf3210$@att.net>
	<CAOJFdbLc6w_3d-Rt_0RWi-Yw0qWka1kpw330BkC=H3706mf5ew@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00c801ccfe77$cc67cda0$653768e0$@att.net>



>... On Behalf Of Mike Dougherty
Subject: Re: [ExI] homebrew cold freon bath super computer

On Fri, Mar 9, 2012 at 8:38 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>> Hard to say. ?If I invest in 100 of these and want them in close 
> quarters, I need a major power supply. ?I would think it would require 
> a home refrigerator scale cooling system.

>...Are they going to be sufficiently faster if they're in a 1 cubic meter
volume than 10 meters apart?

That I don't know, but the motive for the whole immersion notion is not
about speed but rather about room.  If I want to run 100 computers, I don't
want them scattered all over my house, don?t even want them in a big breezy
rack.  I would go for something the size of a gallon of milk, residing
permanently in my fridge.  I would sacrifice some cabinet space to house the
100 watt power supply too.

>...BOTECs on how long it'll take for solar-powered computering mesh to pay
for itself doing "odd jobs"?  (consult Farmer's Almanac for your local area
average solar input)  ...Mike

_______________________________________________

They can do it now.  Consider that cell phone at the chess tournament.  It
played a dozen games, winning 11 and drawing 1, so clearly it didn't run out
of battery charge.  The rules of its participation required that it not be
plugged into a charger, to help insure it wasn't somehow rigged to get
signals through the wire.  The best lithium ion batteries are rated at about
250 wh/kg and a phone battery is about 12 grams, so that comes out close to
3 watt hours.  Another source tells me a Li-ion has a capacity of 700 mAh at
3.7 volts, and that also comes out to about 3 watt hours almost, and a
typical chess game at top level is about three hours, so that phone is doing
all those calcs for about a watt on the high end.  So my reasoning is that
you could keep a stack of 100 of them in your refrigerator, with the power
source outside.  I think a typical refrigerator can handle a 100 watt heat
load, although I would need to check that.  I could just get a 100 watt
incandescent bulb and put it in there, see if everything stays cold.

Has anyone a link to how much power a typical cell phone processor needs?

spike




From eugen at leitl.org  Sat Mar 10 09:48:59 2012
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2012 10:48:59 +0100
Subject: [ExI] homebrew cold freon bath super computer
In-Reply-To: <00ab01ccfe5e$83e510b0$8baf3210$@att.net>
References: <000901ccfe1c$909efe20$b1dcfa60$@att.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1203092211300.13181@tau.ceti.pl>
	<00ab01ccfe5e$83e510b0$8baf3210$@att.net>
Message-ID: <20120310094859.GW9891@leitl.org>

On Fri, Mar 09, 2012 at 05:38:36PM -0800, spike wrote:

> >...4a. For the rest of the cash buy yourself some cheap Linux based micros
> with ARM cpu and 200-something megs of ram, like BeagleBone or Raspberry Pi
> 
> This I find interesting.  I might try that.  Those Pis are supposed to be
> powerful and easily interfaced.  I can imagine setting a cluster of about
> 100 of those in an ordinary water bath cooling system dumping the heat into
> a refrigerator, running something that is useful enough to take up room in
> my fridge.  I think I can wire them together and figure out a way to bring
> the signal out to a switch on the kitchen counter, perhaps by cutting a
> notch in the door seal, or drilling a hole in the side of the refrigerator.
> Good chance my bride will be less enthusiastic about this whole notion than
> I am.

No need, ARM is easily aircooled.
 
> >...4b. You may consider buying and dismantling old broken laptops - ...
> 
> Possibly better performance than phones, but too much stuff there I don't
> need.  Your Raspberry idea is better.

For any practical application you'd do much better with a riff on
http://limulus.basement-supercomputing.com/wiki/LimulusCase
 
> >...5. Install your soft (Beowulf, maybe?), connect the plugs, run run run.
> 
> Ja, but run what what what?  Folding at home?  Codebreakers?

Any MPI code. Fluid dynamics, nuke hydro, finite elements, astro
simulations, molecular or quantum codes, whatever tickles your fancy.

Chances are, whatever your favorite problem space somebody has a
package for it somewhere. Maybe even in the depositories, see
Scientific Linux.
 
> >...6. Don't worry about temperature, if you don't overclock you should be
> fine with air cooling (and maybe custom made big box with few grand voltage
> regulated 120+mm propellers and many holes) - but I would measure temps all
> the time, just in case...
> 
> Hard to say.  If I invest in 100 of these and want them in close quarters, I
> need a major power supply.  I would think it would require a home
> refrigerator scale cooling system.
> 
> 
> >...Sorry if after modifications the plan is not exotic enough for you.
> Seems to me, exotic is what makes you tick :-)... Tomasz Rola
> 
> Ja it is an aerospace engineer's thing.  Why make something simple and
> straightforward, when it can be made complex and wonderful?


From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Sat Mar 10 11:06:24 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2012 12:06:24 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Axiological Risk (was ? Risk:)
In-Reply-To: <1331331250.63640.YahooMailNeo@web164506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <20120308131501.c9alcn6ehw4w8gww@webmail.natasha.cc>
	<4F594262.8040306@aleph.se>
	<1331331250.63640.YahooMailNeo@web164506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a73z=F2xDCxPBiopC9wMggkmbBVWGwmW4XLvEuNG5+uzg@mail.gmail.com>

On 9 March 2012 23:14, The Avantguardian <avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com>wrote:

> Axiological risk is an interesting point to raise. *I can see why a
> humanist would try using such an argument against life-extension and
> transhuman tech in general*. But I think that the weakness of this
> argument lies in the false assumptions of the universality and
> consistency of human values, be they ethical or aesthetic, across space and
> time.
>

!!!

My very mantra.

Because axiology is based on a relative value set, the humanist must
> assume their particular brand of "western mainstream culture" is the human
> norm and then cloak themselves in armor of "human values". But these very
> "human values" have undergone extensive evolution themselves. After
> all, you will probably never have to pay a weregild to a woman for slaying
> her husband in a meadhall during a drunken brawl, oh son of Viking
> beserkers. And I seldomly consider the size of the lip-disks of my
> potential mates, despite their importance and sexiness in several very
> human tribes around the world. So there is a certain cultural narcisism
> that comes with such assumptions that you could call, "the Golden Culture
> fallacy" in analogy to the Golden Age that never existed.
>

Were I not already in love with Natasha, I would ask you to marry me... :-)

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From anders at aleph.se  Sat Mar 10 16:10:47 2012
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2012 16:10:47 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Axiological Risk (was ? Risk:)
In-Reply-To: <4F5AA295.80201@aleph.se>
References: <20120308131501.c9alcn6ehw4w8gww@webmail.natasha.cc>
	<4F594262.8040306@aleph.se>
	<1331331250.63640.YahooMailNeo@web164506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<4F5AA295.80201@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <4F5B7D07.2070200@aleph.se>

Good point made by a colleague:

Might *not* ever developing life extension be an axiological risk?

If the benefits in value of life extension are vast, then not fulfilling 
this possibility (assuming, uncontroversially here at least, that it is 
possible) would mean mankind never reaches its full potential. Hence an 
axiological risk exists in the form of failure of getting life extension.

It is of course an individual risk too for all of us.

-- 
Anders Sandberg,
Future of Humanity Institute
Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University



From rtomek at ceti.pl  Sat Mar 10 18:02:30 2012
From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola)
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2012 19:02:30 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [ExI] homebrew cold freon bath super computer
In-Reply-To: <00ab01ccfe5e$83e510b0$8baf3210$@att.net>
References: <000901ccfe1c$909efe20$b1dcfa60$@att.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1203092211300.13181@tau.ceti.pl>
	<00ab01ccfe5e$83e510b0$8baf3210$@att.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1203101639530.18863@tau.ceti.pl>

On Fri, 9 Mar 2012, spike wrote:

> 
> 
> >... On Behalf Of Tomasz Rola
> Subject: Re: [ExI] homebrew cold freon bath super computer
> 
> On Fri, 9 Mar 2012, spike wrote:
> 
> >> We have a tool at work which is a cold Freon bath... Would that be a cool
> science fair project or what?
> 
> >...Or what, I think. I mean, if you'd like some results out of this, better
> aim for as much practicality as possible...
> 
> Ja, I think you are right.  The Freon bath coming available caused me to
> think of the idea of a stack of low-end processors, but it is waay overkill
> for that application, a solution in search of a problem.  Now I need to
> think of something to use that cold Freon.

Can't help the mania. :-)

> >...With some modifications, your plan could be doable:
> 
> >...4a. For the rest of the cash buy yourself some cheap Linux based micros
> with ARM cpu and 200-something megs of ram, like BeagleBone or Raspberry Pi
> 
> This I find interesting.  I might try that.  Those Pis are supposed to be
> powerful and easily interfaced.  I can imagine setting a cluster of about
> 100 of those in an ordinary water bath cooling system dumping the heat into
> a refrigerator, running something that is useful enough to take up room in
> my fridge.  I think I can wire them together and figure out a way to bring
> the signal out to a switch on the kitchen counter, perhaps by cutting a
> notch in the door seal, or drilling a hole in the side of the refrigerator.
> Good chance my bride will be less enthusiastic about this whole notion than
> I am.
> 
> >...4b. You may consider buying and dismantling old broken laptops - ...
> 
> Possibly better performance than phones, but too much stuff there I don't
> need.  Your Raspberry idea is better.
> 
> >...5. Install your soft (Beowulf, maybe?), connect the plugs, run run run.
> 
> Ja, but run what what what?  Folding at home?  Codebreakers?

Okay. This question should be asked at the very beginning. Spike, do you 
want to build a cluster for some specific computing task or do you want to 
have it as interesting hobby project?

I think my previous answer should be scrapped, remember only "frak the 
phones" part. I really back this part up. Might be wrong, but spent some 
time thinking/reading and came to conclusion that once manufacturer stops 
supporting a phone (or any other proprietary embedded device), it quickly 
becomes a dead weight, mostly good only as a doorstep or fancy ninja 
weapon.

So, back to the board.

If all you want is taking part in existing distributed project, you might 
be better with Intel-compatible hardware. I think those projects have 
precompiled clients ready for download.

You can use some old hardware if you have it. If this is just "one 
hardware", no need for buying a switch.

In case you want more hardware, you want a switch, too. There are plenty 
of SOHO-aimed cheap network gear. Wifi might work in such case (small 
cluster, <10 pieces). Or a router. Actually it depends on how you connect 
to the internet. But I think you want to keep your home network unexposed 
to the rest of the cruel world.

If you want many tens of hardware, you want to build a skeletal network,
too. I don't know much about this but I guess you need gigabit switch for 
backbone and 100Mbps switches for subnets. SOHO-class switches might or 
might not be good enough (costs++). Wifi will most probably be unable to 
perform in such situation (i.e. I guess you will face strange blockages in 
cluster's work, only helped by reboot).

Now, after you perform manual labour and make all the easy stuff, there 
are issues related to software and maintainance. The more you know from 
this list, the better:

1. Install Linux, basic configuration tasks. There are some Linux distros 
tuned for Beowulf clusters, I guess this can make few things easier. 

2. Moving around the installed system, reading docs (man pages, 
/usr/share/doc) - the best browser for this I know is emacs editor. Using 
command line for simple things.

3a. Installing and deinstalling software with package manager.

3b. Configuring network, static addresses.

3c. Configuring network with DHCP.

4. Grabbing some source from sourceforge or savannah.gnu or 
savannah.nongnu, unpacking (tar, gzip/bzip2, unzip), finding your way 
inside (emacs), reading README, using configure and make to compile it, 
install into /usr/local (I use stow).

5. Writing nontrivial shell scripts (emacs, bash) using various cmd line 
tools (ls, cut, awk, sed and more)

6. (optional) Writing some (working) code in Python

7. (optional) Writing some (working) code in C

If not much of above sounds familiar, you might want to learn a bit first, 
before you start fiddling with hardware. I mean, you can also count on 
"learning on the run" but I'm afraid this would end with problems piling 
up, you start cursing all day long and heavy binging in later stages.

For starting with Linux, you can try VirtualBox. I assume you are Windows 
user, right? VirtualBox will give you a virtual computer, with which you 
can do every bad thing you ever dreamt of. After irreversible error, you 
simply scratch it and start over. I would choose Debian Linux for 
practical reasons. Usually I recommend Ubuntu but it is actually aimed 
towards Windows refugees and packed with all kinds of graphical wizards. 
In cluster situation, you should count only on console (a vt100 terminal, 
if you like).

Oh, there might be some nice semi-automated Linux distros for painless 
Beowulf, I'm not really sure because I am not this deep into the subject. 
I assume if I can manage with console, I can manage with browser-based 
administration, too. But the other way, it is not so sure.

Now, some practical issues about Raspberries. AFAIK they don't sell yet
- not sure if you could buy more than 2 when they start. Also, while all 
they micros with ARMs are very cool and some folks are doing nice things 
with them (like DecBox: [ http://retrocmp.com/projects/decbox ]), they are 
also rather new and unsupported, so once you decide to built on them, you 
are very much on your own. Hence the need to know what to do with your 
hands in front of Linux console (hint: keep yer hands on top of the desk).

They start coming with GPUs, which gives them nice theoretical 
performance. However, I am not sure if their GPUs are supported by current 
software incarnation. So you might end up with 700MHz nodes that maybe 
will one day outmatch 2 year old PC cpu, one on one.

I think big scale usage of ARM cpus is in the future (which means it's not 
quite in the present).

BTW, the current PC market is at least aimed at gamers, which means 
performance rulez. With micros, what rulez is energy saving. So this is a 
bit different. Just MHO.

Apart from Limulus mentioned by Eugen, I found this (a bit aged but 
interesting):

http://www.calvin.edu/~adams/research/microwulf/

You can also google around for hints, there are some project descriptions 
on the net (hardware, software).

So, to sum this all in one sentence, I myself would aim at small cluster 
and cheapish 100Mbps switch (but 16 ports would be nice to have). Actual 
hardware - rather PCs/laptops than Raspberries, if you count on starting 
soon. If you go with micros, this will take you more time, I think. Rather 
than pushing for more nodes, I would push for more power/node. What you 
would not like is time spent on maintaining your cluster - the more exotic 
it goes, the more you drink and the more divorces you have. So I would try 
to minimize this one thing and make this aim a general rule, overriding 
any other rule.

Whatever you choose, don't blow it up. It's better to have small cluster 
that you are able to operate than huge unusable one. I would start small, 
adding units in small steps.

> >...6. Don't worry about temperature, if you don't overclock you should be
> fine with air cooling (and maybe custom made big box with few grand voltage
> regulated 120+mm propellers and many holes) - but I would measure temps all
> the time, just in case...
> 
> Hard to say.  If I invest in 100 of these and want them in close quarters, I
> need a major power supply.  I would think it would require a home
> refrigerator scale cooling system.

Actually, they say Raspberry Pi needs about 3.5W to operate. Even if all 
of this was outputed as heat, a 100 pieces would've been rough equivalent 
of 4x100W lightbulbed chandelier.

If you want to put them all into small volume, temperature measurement is 
your friend (few temperature sensors placed strategically). Ventillation 
is your another friend. You may regulate it all manually or you may want 
to create some form of automation, increasing air pumping or turning off 
some nodes if temp goes too high. Remember to account for measurements 
inaccuracies. But automation is, uh, tricky.

You can also consider gluing small radiators to your cpus - the kind that 
overclockers glue to mosfets on their motherboards. They also come with 
thermoconductive gluing tape AFAIR, so no glue is needed. They should be 
cheap.

WRT to wifi as interconnect - apart from performance, I wouldn't do this 
because of security. Every neighbor, every stranger driving by can break 
into such cluster for fun or maybe even for profit. Yes there are "steps 
for securing", but it doesn't hurt to close the doors too. With wifi, it's 
like you make big holes in the walls.

> >...Sorry if after modifications the plan is not exotic enough for you.
> Seems to me, exotic is what makes you tick :-)... Tomasz Rola
> 
> Ja it is an aerospace engineer's thing.  Why make something simple and
> straightforward, when it can be made complex and wonderful?

Ja, it's exotic hunter there. How about cluster of calculators?

http://www.cemetech.net/projects/item.php?id=33

Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.      **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home    **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...      **
**                                                                 **
** Tomasz Rola          mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com             **


From rtomek at ceti.pl  Sat Mar 10 19:12:25 2012
From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola)
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2012 20:12:25 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [ExI] homebrew cold freon bath super computer
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1203101639530.18863@tau.ceti.pl>
References: <000901ccfe1c$909efe20$b1dcfa60$@att.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1203092211300.13181@tau.ceti.pl>
	<00ab01ccfe5e$83e510b0$8baf3210$@att.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1203101639530.18863@tau.ceti.pl>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1203102009210.18863@tau.ceti.pl>

On Sat, 10 Mar 2012, Tomasz Rola wrote:

[...]
> I think my previous answer should be scrapped, remember only "frak the 
> phones" part. I really back this part up. Might be wrong, but spent some 
> time thinking/reading and came to conclusion that once manufacturer stops 
> supporting a phone (or any other proprietary embedded device), it quickly 
> becomes a dead weight, mostly good only as a doorstep or fancy ninja 
> weapon.

OK, it gets better, one bit a month:

http://www.liquidware.com/shop/show/BB-AND-HDE/Android+Hardware+Development+Environment

[...]
> Now, some practical issues about Raspberries. AFAIK they don't sell yet
> - not sure if you could buy more than 2 when they start. Also, while all 
> they micros with ARMs are very cool and some folks are doing nice things 
> with them (like DecBox: [ http://retrocmp.com/projects/decbox ]), they are 

Or this:

http://antipastohw.blogspot.com/2010/08/using-open-source-graphing-calculator.html

http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2010/08/diy-graphing-calculator/

Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.      **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home    **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...      **
**                                                                 **
** Tomasz Rola          mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com             **


From rtomek at ceti.pl  Sat Mar 10 23:57:13 2012
From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola)
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2012 00:57:13 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [ExI] homebrew cold freon bath super computer
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1203101639530.18863@tau.ceti.pl>
References: <000901ccfe1c$909efe20$b1dcfa60$@att.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1203092211300.13181@tau.ceti.pl>
	<00ab01ccfe5e$83e510b0$8baf3210$@att.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1203101639530.18863@tau.ceti.pl>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1203110035250.11123@tau.ceti.pl>


And some afterthoughts, batch no. ...

On Sat, 10 Mar 2012, Tomasz Rola wrote:

> Now, after you perform manual labour and make all the easy stuff, there 
> are issues related to software and maintainance. The more you know from 
> this list, the better:
> 

The list wasn't meant to scare you off (hint: say you wasn't scared). 
Rather, serve as a sketchy plan. Also, no need to become an expert in any 
of this. It is more about knowing your way around, so you know there is 
some docs to peek into or can ask better questions on the net.

BTW, I think many if no all of the things you might learn, you will 
quickly find yourself using them one way or another on a daily basis.

For example, it was my long habit to run Python interpreter soon after 
logging in and use it for all kinds of quick calculations. Until one day I 
started using Common Lisp interpreter for this - but that's another story. 
Python is - I guess - one of the easiest to learn of contemporary 
mainstream languages. You can have a glimpse of it from some youtube 
videos, like those:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMi-uN-6O1Q

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6pdG1oWFX4

> For starting with Linux, you can try VirtualBox. I assume you are Windows 
> user, right? VirtualBox will give you a virtual computer, with which you 
> can do every bad thing you ever dreamt of. After irreversible error, you 
> simply scratch it and start over. I would choose Debian Linux for 
> practical reasons. Usually I recommend Ubuntu but it is actually aimed 
> towards Windows refugees and packed with all kinds of graphical wizards. 
> In cluster situation, you should count only on console (a vt100 terminal, 
> if you like).

I forgot to mention, last time I used VBox (some, say, two years ago) it 
was possible to make more than one such virtual PCs, connected via virtual 
network, running different OSes etc. So, once you get comfortable with one 
Linux, you might want to make a virtual Beowulf cluster first, to feel the 
things.

Also, you can make use of cloud services with knowledge of VBox. I think 
Amazon Cloud accepts images made with it, so you can have a cluster in 
this way, too.

So all in all, this might be lots of fun.

Ok, enough of this.

Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.      **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home    **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...      **
**                                                                 **
** Tomasz Rola          mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com             **


From spike66 at att.net  Sun Mar 11 05:57:02 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2012 21:57:02 -0800
Subject: [ExI] homebrew cold freon bath super computer
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1203110035250.11123@tau.ceti.pl>
References: <000901ccfe1c$909efe20$b1dcfa60$@att.net>	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1203092211300.13181@tau.ceti.pl>	<00ab01ccfe5e$83e510b0$8baf3210$@att.net>	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1203101639530.18863@tau.ceti.pl>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1203110035250.11123@tau.ceti.pl>
Message-ID: <001b01ccff4b$c89611d0$59c23570$@att.net>


>... On Behalf Of Tomasz Rola
>...Subject: Re: [ExI] homebrew cold freon bath super computer

>...And some afterthoughts, batch no. ...

On Sat, 10 Mar 2012, Tomasz Rola wrote:

>>... Now, after you perform manual labour and make all the easy stuff, 

>...The list wasn't meant to scare you off (hint: say you wasn't scared).
...Regards, Tomasz Rola

--

I wasn't scared.

I presented the question this evening to a friend who is a processor
hipster, and he assured me there are plenty of processors available whose
power use is so low, I would be unlikely to need to resort to heat transfer
heroics.  So then my task was to convince him that I really like heat
transfer heroics.

In any case, I got to looking at my refrigerator and doing some calcs, and
realized that rejecting a steady 100 watts would really challenge the thing.
I like really challenging my refrigerator.  I want to rig some kind of
feedback loop such that I can run a bunch of processes, then have them shut
down as soon as it gets above about 6C in there, and turn back on when it
drops below about 2C.  I think GIMPS would be a good application: very
calculation intensive, doesn't require a lot of I/O, and if for whatever
reason there is no I/O available for months at a time, it stores the work it
has done.  We could have them grind away on 100 megadigit primes, for which
the EFF 150kUSD prize is still out there.  Of course it wouldn't pay for the
electricity used, since it would cost about 8 cents for each candidate, and
the mathematical expectation is just over one cent each, but it would be
cool anyway:

https://www.eff.org/awards/coop

Tomasz, there is something I need to explain.  Back in the 80s, before there
were all that many computer applications, those of us who were into that
kind of thing used to build up fast computers, by finding the fastest
processor board available, overclocking it, getting the fastest memory
available, the biggest disk drive, some of which held a thousandth as much
as a five dollar keychain drive today, assuming one had plenty of extra
money to spend on it, and connect it all up to a 15 inch color monitor.
Then we were in tall cotton, my young friends.  We were hot stuff, the bees
knees.  It was a natural geek version of having a hopped up car.  Of course
we still didn't really have any good applications for the machines in those
days.  But it is making me nuts to think of processors going into the trash,
when they could be salvaged perhaps and put to work doing something, even if
useless.

spike



From pharos at gmail.com  Sun Mar 11 07:46:21 2012
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2012 07:46:21 +0000
Subject: [ExI] homebrew cold freon bath super computer
In-Reply-To: <001b01ccff4b$c89611d0$59c23570$@att.net>
References: <000901ccfe1c$909efe20$b1dcfa60$@att.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1203092211300.13181@tau.ceti.pl>
	<00ab01ccfe5e$83e510b0$8baf3210$@att.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1203101639530.18863@tau.ceti.pl>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1203110035250.11123@tau.ceti.pl>
	<001b01ccff4b$c89611d0$59c23570$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAL_armgzZgazGYB8XNZ1TryJKPyMJm_FV72j+KmC9jHjeyUYWg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Mar 11, 2012 at 5:57 AM, spike wrote:
> ?But it is making me nuts to think of processors going into the trash,
> when they could be salvaged perhaps and put to work doing something, even if
> useless.
>
>

I enjoy rebuilding old pcs, putting a lightweight Linux on them and
making them do useful stuff as well.

But nowadays it is not really worth spending the electricity on, if
you have a useful application in mind.

An old pc can be converted to act as a hardware router for your home
network. But why bother? You end up running a whole pc instead of a
little cheap Netgear box.

You can use an old pc as a database store for your network. But why
bother? The old disk drive is too small and you have to run another
pc. Instead you can have a little box external hard drive that holds a
terabyte of data, or use memory sticks for storage.
Anything you can make an old pc do can be done better and cheaper
using modern equipment. That's Moore's Law in action.

Pcs are so cheap and powerful now that old pcs are probably better
given to charities for refurbishing and sending to third world
villages.

Though I'll probably never need to buy another pc again for myself.
The 2 or 3 year old pcs that friends throw out do me just fine!  :)


BillK



From eugen at leitl.org  Sun Mar 11 09:19:48 2012
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2012 10:19:48 +0100
Subject: [ExI] homebrew cold freon bath super computer
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armgzZgazGYB8XNZ1TryJKPyMJm_FV72j+KmC9jHjeyUYWg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <000901ccfe1c$909efe20$b1dcfa60$@att.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1203092211300.13181@tau.ceti.pl>
	<00ab01ccfe5e$83e510b0$8baf3210$@att.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1203101639530.18863@tau.ceti.pl>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1203110035250.11123@tau.ceti.pl>
	<001b01ccff4b$c89611d0$59c23570$@att.net>
	<CAL_armgzZgazGYB8XNZ1TryJKPyMJm_FV72j+KmC9jHjeyUYWg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120311091948.GN9891@leitl.org>

On Sun, Mar 11, 2012 at 07:46:21AM +0000, BillK wrote:

> I enjoy rebuilding old pcs, putting a lightweight Linux on them and
> making them do useful stuff as well.

Very commendable activity, that.
 
> But nowadays it is not really worth spending the electricity on, if
> you have a useful application in mind.

That is the core problem in keeping old hardware alive.
 
> An old pc can be converted to act as a hardware router for your home
> network. But why bother? You end up running a whole pc instead of a
> little cheap Netgear box.

There are very good reasons some us run powerful (but low-power)
machines as routers. Consumer routers are typically incapable of
dealing with with modern (>100 MBit/s) residential broadband,
plenty of state tables (also IPv6), VPN, IDS, proxy and sundry 
other activities. 
 
> You can use an old pc as a database store for your network. But why
> bother? The old disk drive is too small and you have to run another
> pc. Instead you can have a little box external hard drive that holds a
> terabyte of data, or use memory sticks for storage.

I convert old (but still low-power) PCs into reasonably powerful
home file servers with RAID. They're a lot more versatile than these
100 EUR ARM NAS appliances you can buy at the food discounter.

> Anything you can make an old pc do can be done better and cheaper
> using modern equipment. That's Moore's Law in action.

Due to smaller structures modern systems have a short life time,
while we have 20+ old systems still in operation (though we've
gotten rid of the oldest VAX and according washing mashine drive).
 
> Pcs are so cheap and powerful now that old pcs are probably better
> given to charities for refurbishing and sending to third world
> villages.
> 
> Though I'll probably never need to buy another pc again for myself.
> The 2 or 3 year old pcs that friends throw out do me just fine!  :)


From bbenzai at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 11 11:28:52 2012
From: bbenzai at yahoo.com (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2012 04:28:52 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Nuclear hopper
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1331380801.16890.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <1331465332.25219.YahooMailClassic@web114403.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

Interesting concept for high-volume space launches:

http://nextbigfuture.com/2012/03/friedlanders-idea-for-nuclear-hopper.html

Ben Zaiboc



From rtomek at ceti.pl  Sun Mar 11 17:14:39 2012
From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola)
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2012 18:14:39 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [ExI] homebrew cold freon bath super computer
In-Reply-To: <001b01ccff4b$c89611d0$59c23570$@att.net>
References: <000901ccfe1c$909efe20$b1dcfa60$@att.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1203092211300.13181@tau.ceti.pl>
	<00ab01ccfe5e$83e510b0$8baf3210$@att.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1203101639530.18863@tau.ceti.pl>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1203110035250.11123@tau.ceti.pl>
	<001b01ccff4b$c89611d0$59c23570$@att.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1203111718370.8723@tau.ceti.pl>

On Sat, 10 Mar 2012, spike wrote:

[...]
> I presented the question this evening to a friend who is a processor
> hipster, and he assured me there are plenty of processors available whose
> power use is so low, I would be unlikely to need to resort to heat transfer
> heroics.  So then my task was to convince him that I really like heat
> transfer heroics.

Cool. If you'd like to play more with this, maybe overclocking some big 
multicore cpu would satiate you :-).

[...]
> drops below about 2C.  I think GIMPS would be a good application: very
> calculation intensive, doesn't require a lot of I/O, and if for whatever
> reason there is no I/O available for months at a time, it stores the work it
> has done.  We could have them grind away on 100 megadigit primes, for which
> the EFF 150kUSD prize is still out there.  Of course it wouldn't pay for the
> electricity used, since it would cost about 8 cents for each candidate, and
> the mathematical expectation is just over one cent each, but it would be
> cool anyway:
> 
> https://www.eff.org/awards/coop

Yes, primes, very sexy. I like them, too. Even without a prize.

> Tomasz, there is something I need to explain.  Back in the 80s, before there
> were all that many computer applications, those of us who were into that
> kind of thing used to build up fast computers, by finding the fastest
> processor board available, overclocking it, getting the fastest memory
> available, the biggest disk drive, some of which held a thousandth as much
> as a five dollar keychain drive today, assuming one had plenty of extra
> money to spend on it, and connect it all up to a 15 inch color monitor.
> Then we were in tall cotton, my young friends.  We were hot stuff, the bees
> knees.  It was a natural geek version of having a hopped up car.  Of course
> we still didn't really have any good applications for the machines in those
> days.

Yes, those were great days, in many ways. However, I would say there was 
nice soft back then, and even more important, people wanting to play with 
it. My definition of nice soft... well, let's say Common Lisp and 
Smalltalk fit the definition and leave it there. Now, there is all kind of 
computing power you'd want, but people program in languages like Java or 
Visual Basic, and I cannot see this as cool.

OTOH, I can see how it is always about making things from elements. Making 
hopped up cars, DIY computers or software from parts. The rest is in 
details, but general rule seems to stay the same.

> But it is making me nuts to think of processors going into the trash, 
> when they could be salvaged perhaps and put to work doing something, 
> even if useless.

I'm afraid you can't help it. I think about a decade ago, things were 
designed in more hack-friendly manner - like first models of iPaq PDAs 
which had JTAG interface, so it was possible to reprogram their flash 
even after bricking them. But I guess those days are over now. Myself, I 
simply got used to thinking of those devices as cement bricks. Once their 
software cannot be updated, they are as dead as if they browned out.

BTW, it is possible electronics is or will be designed in such a way, that 
after, say, five years something will pop and brown anyway. You know, just 
to be sure you upgrade to "better" thing. Unless you eke out more money 
in a shop, in which case you may get "unenhanced" version that will last 
ten years.

Thanks to computing entering mainstream consciousness, not many people 
care about hackability anymore. Selling products (and bringing money home) 
is important and since business always grows on throwing old stuff away, 
there is no point in reusing old product. Primes? What's this? Are they 
sold? If not, either they don't exist or are unimportant enough for the 
public to care.

Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.      **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home    **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...      **
**                                                                 **
** Tomasz Rola          mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com             **


From spike66 at att.net  Mon Mar 12 04:10:29 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2012 21:10:29 -0700
Subject: [ExI] self driving cars in california
Message-ID: <00ad01cd0006$106990d0$313cb270$@att.net>

 

This brings up a whole bunch of interesting questions.  I see the Google car
puttering around, a couple times a month these days.  I have only seen the
Stanford car once, but it might be that I just wasn't up in that
neighborhood often enough.  It looks to me like this would be a great
development for those who like to drink or smoke weed.  Or who are old.  Or
all the above.

 

http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1073910_california-proposes-rules-for-aut
onomous-cars

 

spike

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From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 12 06:46:17 2012
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2012 23:46:17 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Axiological Risk (was ? Risk:)
In-Reply-To: <4F5B7D07.2070200@aleph.se>
References: <20120308131501.c9alcn6ehw4w8gww@webmail.natasha.cc>
	<4F594262.8040306@aleph.se>
	<1331331250.63640.YahooMailNeo@web164506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<4F5AA295.80201@aleph.se> <4F5B7D07.2070200@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <1331534777.6472.YahooMailNeo@web164505.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>



?----- Original Message -----
> From: Anders Sandberg <anders at aleph.se>
> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Cc: 
> Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2012 8:10 AM
> Subject: Re: [ExI] Axiological Risk (was ? Risk:)
> 
>G ood point made by a colleague:
> 
> Might *not* ever developing life extension be an axiological risk?
> 
> If the benefits in value of life extension are vast, then not fulfilling this 
> possibility (assuming, uncontroversially here at least, that it is possible) 
> would mean mankind never reaches its full potential. Hence an axiological risk 
> exists in the form of failure of getting life extension.

Yes. Your friend does have a good point. I'll up the ante on him: Might *not* developing?the means for self-directed evolution be an existential risk?

Allow me to phrase it another way: Might not having the ability to keep the gills we all develop and lose in the womb into adulthood pose an existential risk in a world with melting ice packs and rising sea levels? I can think of other scenarios if your friend doubts.

> It is of course an individual risk too for all of us.

Yes, the fatality rate of death is alarming. ;-)

?
Stuart LaForge


"The state that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards, and its fighting by fools." -Thucydides



From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 12 20:49:39 2012
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 13:49:39 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Pink Slime
Message-ID: <1331585379.63556.YahooMailNeo@web164506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/nationworld/la-na-nn-pink-slime-20120309,0,1666063.story
?
Since many here were discussing food issues including tissue-cultured meat, I thought I would bring up so-called pink slime. I find it curious that many of the most vehement oppononents of this stuff are probably PETA donor/activists who are offering the huge prize for the tissue cultured meat. Chances are when they get that?lab grown meat, their squick factor will cause them to protest the very stuff they funded the development of.?FWIW I prefer pink slime to "grey goo" any day. Oh BTW margarine which many non-dairy vegans eat? Before they add the yellow dye, it is a dull grey largely trans-fat. Unless it is made from?some very?specific?oils.?Not quite as dangerous as "grey goo" but dangerous nonetheless.?

Stuart LaForge


"The state that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done?by cowards, and its fighting by fools." -Thucydides.



From atymes at gmail.com  Mon Mar 12 22:11:57 2012
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 15:11:57 -0700
Subject: [ExI] self driving cars in california
In-Reply-To: <00ad01cd0006$106990d0$313cb270$@att.net>
References: <00ad01cd0006$106990d0$313cb270$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNQvRpH94LVaYdijukYzmqcfCSmNry6psFUN7RVuKHDXVw@mail.gmail.com>

It's about time they started hammering this out.

2012/3/11 spike <spike66 at att.net>:
>
>
> This brings up a whole bunch of interesting questions.? I see the Google car
> puttering around, a couple times a month these days.? I have only seen the
> Stanford car once, but it might be that I just wasn?t up in that
> neighborhood often enough.? It looks to me like this would be a great
> development for those who like to drink or smoke weed.? Or who are old.? Or
> all the above.
>
>
>
> http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1073910_california-proposes-rules-for-autonomous-cars
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>



From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Mon Mar 12 22:51:24 2012
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 15:51:24 -0700
Subject: [ExI] self driving cars in california
In-Reply-To: <00ad01cd0006$106990d0$313cb270$@att.net>
References: <00ad01cd0006$106990d0$313cb270$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy2UFB5ir1tAMi4KuikddPZQJnSfqKdzonHgNpB7-rM0Fw@mail.gmail.com>

I worry about the computers on board the self-driven cars, being able to
successfully navigate around the illogical and dangerous movements of human
controlled vehicles.  I want to see human driven cars largely be a thing of
the past, so tens of thousands of human lives can be saved in the United
States.  I'm so sick of the carnage going on, and constantly hearing how a
friend/acquaintance/relative lost a friend/acquaintance/relative in a
horrible car accident.  It seems like cancer, heart disease and car wrecks
are the killers of the people I care about.


I vaguely remember reading a wonderful sf short story from the seventies,
with a title something like "The Egg."  It tells the tale of a Tony
Stark-style character who after a near fatal car accident, builds an
egg-shaped car that holds the driver in a placenta-like chamber, so that
just about any collision can be survived.


John

2012/3/11 spike <spike66 at att.net>

>  ** **
>
> This brings up a whole bunch of interesting questions.  I see the Google
> car puttering around, a couple times a month these days.  I have only seen
> the Stanford car once, but it might be that I just wasn?t up in that
> neighborhood often enough.  It looks to me like this would be a great
> development for those who like to drink or smoke weed.  Or who are old.  Or
> all the above.****
>
> ** **
>
>
> http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1073910_california-proposes-rules-for-autonomous-cars
> ****
>
> ** **
>
> spike****
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Mon Mar 12 22:31:59 2012
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 15:31:59 -0700
Subject: [ExI] homebrew cold freon bath super computer
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1203111718370.8723@tau.ceti.pl>
References: <000901ccfe1c$909efe20$b1dcfa60$@att.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1203092211300.13181@tau.ceti.pl>
	<00ab01ccfe5e$83e510b0$8baf3210$@att.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1203101639530.18863@tau.ceti.pl>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1203110035250.11123@tau.ceti.pl>
	<001b01ccff4b$c89611d0$59c23570$@att.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1203111718370.8723@tau.ceti.pl>
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy3MtKBka65hv0MscXyeoYrdD2MXgQoSo2coP0s0QV02UA@mail.gmail.com>

I'd love to go to a Maker Fair with this group.


John  : )

On Sun, Mar 11, 2012 at 10:14 AM, Tomasz Rola <rtomek at ceti.pl> wrote:

> On Sat, 10 Mar 2012, spike wrote:
>
> [...]
> > I presented the question this evening to a friend who is a processor
> > hipster, and he assured me there are plenty of processors available whose
> > power use is so low, I would be unlikely to need to resort to heat
> transfer
> > heroics.  So then my task was to convince him that I really like heat
> > transfer heroics.
>
> Cool. If you'd like to play more with this, maybe overclocking some big
> multicore cpu would satiate you :-).
>
> [...]
> > drops below about 2C.  I think GIMPS would be a good application: very
> > calculation intensive, doesn't require a lot of I/O, and if for whatever
> > reason there is no I/O available for months at a time, it stores the
> work it
> > has done.  We could have them grind away on 100 megadigit primes, for
> which
> > the EFF 150kUSD prize is still out there.  Of course it wouldn't pay for
> the
> > electricity used, since it would cost about 8 cents for each candidate,
> and
> > the mathematical expectation is just over one cent each, but it would be
> > cool anyway:
> >
> > https://www.eff.org/awards/coop
>
> Yes, primes, very sexy. I like them, too. Even without a prize.
>
> > Tomasz, there is something I need to explain.  Back in the 80s, before
> there
> > were all that many computer applications, those of us who were into that
> > kind of thing used to build up fast computers, by finding the fastest
> > processor board available, overclocking it, getting the fastest memory
> > available, the biggest disk drive, some of which held a thousandth as
> much
> > as a five dollar keychain drive today, assuming one had plenty of extra
> > money to spend on it, and connect it all up to a 15 inch color monitor.
> > Then we were in tall cotton, my young friends.  We were hot stuff, the
> bees
> > knees.  It was a natural geek version of having a hopped up car.  Of
> course
> > we still didn't really have any good applications for the machines in
> those
> > days.
>
> Yes, those were great days, in many ways. However, I would say there was
> nice soft back then, and even more important, people wanting to play with
> it. My definition of nice soft... well, let's say Common Lisp and
> Smalltalk fit the definition and leave it there. Now, there is all kind of
> computing power you'd want, but people program in languages like Java or
> Visual Basic, and I cannot see this as cool.
>
> OTOH, I can see how it is always about making things from elements. Making
> hopped up cars, DIY computers or software from parts. The rest is in
> details, but general rule seems to stay the same.
>
> > But it is making me nuts to think of processors going into the trash,
> > when they could be salvaged perhaps and put to work doing something,
> > even if useless.
>
> I'm afraid you can't help it. I think about a decade ago, things were
> designed in more hack-friendly manner - like first models of iPaq PDAs
> which had JTAG interface, so it was possible to reprogram their flash
> even after bricking them. But I guess those days are over now. Myself, I
> simply got used to thinking of those devices as cement bricks. Once their
> software cannot be updated, they are as dead as if they browned out.
>
> BTW, it is possible electronics is or will be designed in such a way, that
> after, say, five years something will pop and brown anyway. You know, just
> to be sure you upgrade to "better" thing. Unless you eke out more money
> in a shop, in which case you may get "unenhanced" version that will last
> ten years.
>
> Thanks to computing entering mainstream consciousness, not many people
> care about hackability anymore. Selling products (and bringing money home)
> is important and since business always grows on throwing old stuff away,
> there is no point in reusing old product. Primes? What's this? Are they
> sold? If not, either they don't exist or are unimportant enough for the
> public to care.
>
> Regards,
> Tomasz Rola
>
> --
> ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.      **
> ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home    **
> ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...      **
> **                                                                 **
> ** Tomasz Rola          mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com             **
>  _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From seculartranshumanist at gmail.com  Tue Mar 13 01:19:34 2012
From: seculartranshumanist at gmail.com (Joseph Bloch)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 21:19:34 -0400
Subject: [ExI] The Atlantic Interview with S. Matthew Liao
Message-ID: <CAOFRd6jX0R7UeXPYGcAQyST0WyiK5vvUP1E33cuyQpi_ZAYF9Q@mail.gmail.com>

http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2012/03/how-engineering-the-human-body-could-combat-climate-change/253981/

I'm a little saddened that the only way the topic of human engineering
could get talked about in even a remotely positive way was to link it
to "climate change", but at least its more positive than much of the
coverage of Transhumanism in recent years, and there's a mention of
Anders as a "colleague" of Dr. Liao. Alas, the dreaded "T-Word" is not
mentioned at all in the article. Apparently Francis Fukuyama has won.

Joseph


From max at maxmore.com  Tue Mar 13 02:31:32 2012
From: max at maxmore.com (Max More)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 19:31:32 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Atlantic article on human reengineering with very strong
	reactions
Message-ID: <CAJX-7wVcrpNWs_yNp5q5TWh7e7t8eyZWisMhEt7OQ6zMH8naDQ@mail.gmail.com>

This article is about a paper (co-authored by Anders Sandberg) that
considers ways of reengineering humans so as to "combat" climate change.
I'll restrain myself from commenting, except to say that it's an
interesting piece, as is the intensity of the comments in response.

http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2012/03/how-engineering-the-human-body-could-combat-climate-change/253981/


-- 
Max More, PhD
Strategic Philosopher
Co-editor, *The Transhumanist Reader*
CEO, Alcor Life Extension Foundation
7895 E. Acoma Dr # 110
Scottsdale, AZ 85260
480/905-1906 ext 113
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From anders at aleph.se  Tue Mar 13 11:02:35 2012
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 11:02:35 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Atlantic article on human reengineering with very strong
 reactions
In-Reply-To: <CAJX-7wVcrpNWs_yNp5q5TWh7e7t8eyZWisMhEt7OQ6zMH8naDQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJX-7wVcrpNWs_yNp5q5TWh7e7t8eyZWisMhEt7OQ6zMH8naDQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4F5F294B.1080205@aleph.se>

On 13/03/2012 02:31, Max More wrote:
> This article is about a paper (co-authored by Anders Sandberg) that 
> considers ways of reengineering humans so as to "combat" climate 
> change. I'll restrain myself from commenting, except to say that it's 
> an interesting piece, as is the intensity of the comments in 
> response.<http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2012/03/how-engineering-the-human-body-could-combat-climate-change/253981/>

I liked that Slashdot tagged the article 'troll'. This is probably the 
closest I have ever got to actually trolling people.

And of course, the only long-term sustainable approach is to become a 
solid state civilization...
http://www.aleph.se/andart/archives/2009/03/a_really_green_and_sustainable_humanity.html

-- 
Anders Sandberg,
Future of Humanity Institute
Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University

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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Tue Mar 13 12:04:24 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 13:04:24 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Pink Slime
In-Reply-To: <1331585379.63556.YahooMailNeo@web164506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <1331585379.63556.YahooMailNeo@web164506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a59hdSdeh=bWmavnqQ2zq32dkYMOu1tgp+q1tkG3UwnRA@mail.gmail.com>

On 12 March 2012 21:49, The Avantguardian <avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com>wrote:

>
> http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/nationworld/la-na-nn-pink-slime-20120309,0,1666063.story
>
> Since many here were discussing food issues including tissue-cultured
> meat, I thought I would bring up so-called pink slime.
>

There is more to meat than dry-aged beef tenderloin. Not only animal
proteins are good even when they do not come from prime cuts, all other
things being equal, but gastronomically it has been a loss that so much of
modern cuisine tends to ignore ever larger parts of the animal and an ever
larger number of animals.

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Tue Mar 13 12:25:42 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 13:25:42 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Atlantic article on human reengineering with very strong
	reactions
In-Reply-To: <4F5F294B.1080205@aleph.se>
References: <CAJX-7wVcrpNWs_yNp5q5TWh7e7t8eyZWisMhEt7OQ6zMH8naDQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<4F5F294B.1080205@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a6Bv52-4DYdw4qXGJ1iOsZ9Z+eE9QmvoxB40JYcbDDPKw@mail.gmail.com>

2012/3/13 Anders Sandberg <anders at aleph.se>

> And of course, the only long-term sustainable approach is to become a
> solid state civilization...
>

What's wrong with liquid-state civilisations? :-)

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From kryonica at gmail.com  Tue Mar 13 12:08:52 2012
From: kryonica at gmail.com (Kryonica)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 12:08:52 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Pink Slime
In-Reply-To: <CAPoR7a59hdSdeh=bWmavnqQ2zq32dkYMOu1tgp+q1tkG3UwnRA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1331585379.63556.YahooMailNeo@web164506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<CAPoR7a59hdSdeh=bWmavnqQ2zq32dkYMOu1tgp+q1tkG3UwnRA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <25470147-7E2A-4B9F-BA3D-B30BE572F3E3@gmail.com>

But this morning on BBC news we were once more reminded of the dangers of eating red and processed meat...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-17345967

On 13 Mar 2012, at 12:04, Stefano Vaj wrote:

> On 12 March 2012 21:49, The Avantguardian <avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/nationworld/la-na-nn-pink-slime-20120309,0,1666063.story
>  
> Since many here were discussing food issues including tissue-cultured meat, I thought I would bring up so-called pink slime.
> 
> There is more to meat than dry-aged beef tenderloin. Not only animal proteins are good even when they do not come from prime cuts, all other things being equal, but gastronomically it has been a loss that so much of modern cuisine tends to ignore ever larger parts of the animal and an ever larger number of animals.
> 
> -- 
> Stefano Vaj
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

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From msd001 at gmail.com  Tue Mar 13 12:20:25 2012
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 08:20:25 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Atlantic article on human reengineering with very strong
	reactions
In-Reply-To: <4F5F294B.1080205@aleph.se>
References: <CAJX-7wVcrpNWs_yNp5q5TWh7e7t8eyZWisMhEt7OQ6zMH8naDQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<4F5F294B.1080205@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <CAOJFdbK2wD4M97=RmynmQMkDJNG_j5C-huCCM2-sGrkbRjm1zg@mail.gmail.com>

2012/3/13 Anders Sandberg <anders at aleph.se>:
> And of course, the only long-term sustainable approach is to become a solid
> state civilization...
> http://www.aleph.se/andart/archives/2009/03/a_really_green_and_sustainable_humanity.html

I agree that's A plan, but the ONLY one?


From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Tue Mar 13 13:00:26 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 14:00:26 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Pink Slime
In-Reply-To: <25470147-7E2A-4B9F-BA3D-B30BE572F3E3@gmail.com>
References: <1331585379.63556.YahooMailNeo@web164506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<CAPoR7a59hdSdeh=bWmavnqQ2zq32dkYMOu1tgp+q1tkG3UwnRA@mail.gmail.com>
	<25470147-7E2A-4B9F-BA3D-B30BE572F3E3@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a5ZDqitujCE3_diCrgT=WbfO0OddxMdKnaaH96yNiM=pg@mail.gmail.com>

2012/3/13 Kryonica <kryonica at gmail.com>

> But this morning on BBC news we were once more reminded of the dangers of
> eating red and processed meat...
>
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-17345967
>

Yes, the key words in my previous messages being "all other things being
equal"?

*If* you have carbos in your diet, the less red meat (or, for that matter,
the less of absolutely anything) you eat, the better. For instance, carbos
disrupt self-regulation in fat assumptions, and stimulate your body to
produce excess colestherol, so that adding further quantities by dietary
intake may not really be a good idea.

Moreover, the assumption that "pink slime" is nutritionally perfect is
subject to a likely disproval.

Ideally, we should eat meat of healthy animals of an ideal age having died
a relatively painless death after a healthy life in the wild, unaffected by
the passage of time or inappropriate preservation.

This is pretty close to what some hunter-gatherer culture manage(d) to
obtain from their environment (eskimos having eg a much lower incidence of
cardiovascular diseases...) , and to what we still can obtain in the
affluent world with a deliberate and expensive nutritional-savvy effort,
but I suspect that it is not really be reflected in the ingredients and
status of your average pink slime - or of a mass-market morning sausage,
for that matter.

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From kgh1kgh2 at gmail.com  Tue Mar 13 13:04:21 2012
From: kgh1kgh2 at gmail.com (Kevin G Haskell)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 09:04:21 -0400
Subject: [ExI] "Only 50,000 Years to Reach Higher Ground"
Message-ID: <CAEUzo3K43=OVxU7W=UBsb5sTX86qSxCPTmjDh71kqeYD_cW3Kw@mail.gmail.com>

What will we ever do? :)

http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/the_age_peddles/
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From kgh1kgh2 at gmail.com  Tue Mar 13 13:36:16 2012
From: kgh1kgh2 at gmail.com (Kevin G Haskell)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 09:36:16 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Eliminate people to reduce 'warming' and 'save Earth?"
Message-ID: <CAEUzo3KL3k0A0BqoOMgt=RAyJ-Q_biiC9uwOkhVFRtXHC5gVkA@mail.gmail.com>

Do we need to not just stop, but reduce human population in order to stop
the "warming of the Earth in order to save it?"

Your Gaian worshipers at work:

https://hauntingthelibrary.wordpress.com/2012/03/05/
global-warming-and-over-procreators-what-about-coercion-asks-eco-professor/
Kevin George Haskell,

Technolibertarians at groups.facebook.com
and
Singulibertarians at groups.facebook.com (C.H.A.R.T.S)
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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Tue Mar 13 14:48:04 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 15:48:04 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Eliminate people to reduce 'warming' and 'save Earth?"
In-Reply-To: <CAEUzo3KL3k0A0BqoOMgt=RAyJ-Q_biiC9uwOkhVFRtXHC5gVkA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEUzo3KL3k0A0BqoOMgt=RAyJ-Q_biiC9uwOkhVFRtXHC5gVkA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a6UfYd=e09XAWpK9qRFnaRVAfxNywjCS5P9Li5HK9AXAQ@mail.gmail.com>

2012/3/13 Kevin G Haskell <kgh1kgh2 at gmail.com>

> Do we need to not just stop, but reduce human population in order to stop
> the "warming of the Earth in order to save it?"
>

If we were also to eliminate animal and vegetal populations altogether,
Mother Earth would be indeniably spared a lot of pointless and erosive
chemical processes... :-)

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From nymphomation at gmail.com  Tue Mar 13 15:17:05 2012
From: nymphomation at gmail.com (*Nym*)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 15:17:05 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Eliminate people to reduce 'warming' and 'save Earth?"
In-Reply-To: <CAEUzo3KL3k0A0BqoOMgt=RAyJ-Q_biiC9uwOkhVFRtXHC5gVkA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEUzo3KL3k0A0BqoOMgt=RAyJ-Q_biiC9uwOkhVFRtXHC5gVkA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACMJz981fh+z2iqFeqP4M5LHKP3VB6KVnC=iqPpqyb3G56N2mw@mail.gmail.com>

On 13/03/2012, Kevin G Haskell <kgh1kgh2 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Do we need to not just stop, but reduce human population in order to stop
> the "warming of the Earth in order to save it?"

Perfectly reasonable suggestion & one that many of us have been
practising for decades.

> Your Gaian worshipers at work:

Linked page contains no mention of  'gaia' nor any mention of
religion. Neither does the article suggest 'eliminating people'.

'Support policies that limit human numbers' does not usually mean
anything more coercive than educating women and allowing everyone
access to birth control technology.

> Technolibertarians at groups.facebook.com
> and
> Singulibertarians at groups.facebook.com (C.H.A.R.T.S)

Hahaha, no political bias there then!

Often commentators say that science fiction is not about the future
but about the present. With a lot of transhumanists I sometimes wonder
if they are not about the future either, but more concerned with
promoting the interests of the 1% in our present time.  Phony concern
about 'christian' 'values issues' is the other way of dividing and
ruling the proletariat, as any fule kno.

HTH

Heavy splashings,
Thee Nymphomation

'If you cannot afford an executioner, a duty executioner
will be appointed to you free of charge by the court'


From florent.berthet at gmail.com  Tue Mar 13 16:06:31 2012
From: florent.berthet at gmail.com (Florent Berthet)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 17:06:31 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Eliminate people to reduce 'warming' and 'save Earth?"
In-Reply-To: <CAPoR7a6UfYd=e09XAWpK9qRFnaRVAfxNywjCS5P9Li5HK9AXAQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEUzo3KL3k0A0BqoOMgt=RAyJ-Q_biiC9uwOkhVFRtXHC5gVkA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPoR7a6UfYd=e09XAWpK9qRFnaRVAfxNywjCS5P9Li5HK9AXAQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAA9DTzRawRUQRNz337FscM9dYmVgFkq9+ihkysySb1c+Sj0P1Q@mail.gmail.com>

Don't give them ideas... ;)


2012/3/13 Stefano Vaj <stefano.vaj at gmail.com>:
> 2012/3/13 Kevin G Haskell <kgh1kgh2 at gmail.com>
>>
>> Do we need to not just stop, but reduce human population in order to stop
>> the "warming of the Earth in order to save it?"
>
>
> If we were also to eliminate animal and vegetal populations altogether,
> Mother Earth would be indeniably spared a lot of pointless and erosive
> chemical processes... :-)
>
> --
> Stefano Vaj
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>


From spike66 at att.net  Tue Mar 13 19:17:38 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 12:17:38 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Pink Slime
In-Reply-To: <CAPoR7a59hdSdeh=bWmavnqQ2zq32dkYMOu1tgp+q1tkG3UwnRA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1331585379.63556.YahooMailNeo@web164506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<CAPoR7a59hdSdeh=bWmavnqQ2zq32dkYMOu1tgp+q1tkG3UwnRA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00f101cd014d$f4cf2c60$de6d8520$@att.net>

 

 

From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Stefano Vaj
Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 5:04 AM
To: The Avantguardian; ExI chat list
Subject: Re: [ExI] Pink Slime

 

On 12 March 2012 21:49, The Avantguardian <avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com>
wrote:

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/nationworld/la-na-nn-pink-slime-20120309,0,
1666063.story
 
>>.Since many here were discussing food issues including tissue-cultured
meat, I thought I would bring up so-called pink slime.



>.There is more to meat than dry-aged beef tenderloin. .-- Stefano Vaj

 

Ja, but I want you guys to stop and really ponder what it is that makes good
meat.  It isn't flavor really, although that is certainly part of it.  What
makes for good meat is texture.  Consider the title of this thread, pink
slime.  It tells us two things that make for a poor substitute for meat: it
isn't the right color and it isn't the right texture.  Something the
meat-substitute industry has been struggling to do for decades is to match
the way meat tears apart when it is being devoured.  This is a function of
the cross linking in the tissues.  Jello or slime isn't the same thing: not
enough cross=linking.  Rubber isn't the same: far too much cross linking,
for it doesn't tear apart under the teeth as does flesh.  Somewhere in
between is the perfect tender prime cut.  Our job is to engineer that.

 

spike

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From spike66 at att.net  Tue Mar 13 19:27:39 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 12:27:39 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Atlantic article on human reengineering with very strong
	reactions
In-Reply-To: <4F5F294B.1080205@aleph.se>
References: <CAJX-7wVcrpNWs_yNp5q5TWh7e7t8eyZWisMhEt7OQ6zMH8naDQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<4F5F294B.1080205@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <00fa01cd014f$5b333860$1199a920$@att.net>

 

 

>. On Behalf Of Anders Sandberg
Subject: Re: [ExI] Atlantic article on human reengineering with very strong
reactions

 

On 13/03/2012 02:31, Max More wrote: 

>>This article is about a paper (co-authored by Anders Sandberg) that
considers ways of reengineering humans so as to "combat" climate change.


>.I liked that Slashdot tagged the article 'troll'. This is probably the
closest I have ever got to actually trolling people.

>.And of course, the only long-term sustainable approach is to become a
solid state civilization...
http://www.aleph.se/andart/archives/2009/03/a_really_green_and_sustainable_h
umanity.html -- Anders Sandberg,

 
 
Anders, I dropped my teeth this morning.  The local AM radio was all over
this story, telling of this NYU professor who was urging his students to do
genetic engineering to make people smaller so that they would be more
environmentally friendly.  Of course that sold me bigtime: I have long
advocated for smaller people.  The advantages are many, once you realize
that so many things scale down as the square and the cube of our linear
dimension.  For instance, if humans were to evolve to half scale, think of
how we could scale down houses and cars.  Our current freeway and road
system would be so very adequate!  Our current farm system would be so
capable of feeding us.  If we were half scale, we would need only a quarter
of the amount of food per person.  Our cars would be the size of shopping
carts, our offices spacious beyond our current ambitions.  Our manned
spacecraft would be increased in volume by a factor of 8, or reduced in mass
by the same.
 
The local radio DJ was horrified, but I thought it was a great idea.
 
The notion isn't to modify our DNA directly, but rather modify our sexual
desires, so that we are attracted to smaller people.  Then the DNA
modification happens by mate selection.
 
spike
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From pharos at gmail.com  Tue Mar 13 20:33:41 2012
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 20:33:41 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Atlantic article on human reengineering with very strong
	reactions
In-Reply-To: <00fa01cd014f$5b333860$1199a920$@att.net>
References: <CAJX-7wVcrpNWs_yNp5q5TWh7e7t8eyZWisMhEt7OQ6zMH8naDQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<4F5F294B.1080205@aleph.se>
	<00fa01cd014f$5b333860$1199a920$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAL_armjovL3yTf-H3g2riOLPaGtvJSZP8gNuX_-48Ko+BmKA3w@mail.gmail.com>

On 2012/3/13 spike scribbled furiously:
> The notion isn?t to modify our DNA directly, but rather modify our sexual
> desires, so that we are attracted to smaller people.? Then the DNA
> modification happens by mate selection.
>
>

Sooooo, for you there is no more tall blonde blue-eyed Swedish females
with legs all the way up to their shoulders?????


BillK



From sparge at gmail.com  Tue Mar 13 19:52:23 2012
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 15:52:23 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Pink Slime
In-Reply-To: <00f101cd014d$f4cf2c60$de6d8520$@att.net>
References: <1331585379.63556.YahooMailNeo@web164506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<CAPoR7a59hdSdeh=bWmavnqQ2zq32dkYMOu1tgp+q1tkG3UwnRA@mail.gmail.com>
	<00f101cd014d$f4cf2c60$de6d8520$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2fG18Xv-4TUKKps5H0uhT2zUpHK619XHZ4hzktiQMCxqA@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 3:17 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

> **
>
> Ja, but I want you guys to stop and really ponder what it is that makes
> good meat.  It isn?t flavor really, although that is certainly part of it.
> What makes for good meat is texture.  Consider the title of this thread,
> pink slime.  It tells us two things that make for a poor substitute for
> meat: it isn?t the right color and it isn?t the right texture.
>

"Pink slime" isn't a meat substitute, it's a meat by-product that used to
extend ground beef.

 Something the meat-substitute industry has been struggling to do for
> decades is to match the way meat tears apart when it is being devoured.
> This is a function of the cross linking in the tissues.  Jello or slime
> isn?t the same thing: not enough cross=linking.  Rubber isn?t the same: far
> too much cross linking, for it doesn?t tear apart under the teeth as does
> flesh.  Somewhere in between is the perfect tender prime cut.  Our job is
> to engineer that.
>

Why do we need to engineer the perfect meat substitute when we've got
already got real meat that's relatively inexpensive, nutritious, and
renewable?

-Dave
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From spike66 at att.net  Tue Mar 13 21:26:16 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 14:26:16 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Atlantic article on human reengineering with very
	strong	reactions
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armjovL3yTf-H3g2riOLPaGtvJSZP8gNuX_-48Ko+BmKA3w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJX-7wVcrpNWs_yNp5q5TWh7e7t8eyZWisMhEt7OQ6zMH8naDQ@mail.gmail.com>	<4F5F294B.1080205@aleph.se>	<00fa01cd014f$5b333860$1199a920$@att.net>
	<CAL_armjovL3yTf-H3g2riOLPaGtvJSZP8gNuX_-48Ko+BmKA3w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <015101cd015f$ecf91480$c6eb3d80$@att.net>

-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of BillK
Subject: Re: [ExI] Atlantic article on human reengineering with very strong
reactions

On 2012/3/13 spike scribbled furiously:

>> ...The notion isn?t to modify our DNA directly, but rather modify our 
> sexual desires, so that we are attracted to smaller people.? Then the 
> DNA modification happens by mate selection.

>...Sooooo, for you there is no more tall blonde blue-eyed Swedish females
with legs all the way up to their shoulders?????  BillK

_______________________________________________

No, for me and for my son, already born, there is no changing what has
already happened.  But perhaps my grandchildren may be genetically modified
to be sexually attracted to the smallest members in their clade.  It should
be no surprise we would go for tall blue eyed Swedish girls: both I and my
son (and my wife) are a quarter Swedish.  But it can be easily imagined that
humans are currently near the high end of our scale with our current design:
we are nearly as big as we can get.  Recall that the heart receives its
oxygen from its surface, and the surface area scales as the square of the
linear dimension, whereas its workload scales approximately as the fourth
power of the linear dimension.  Really tall people die young of heart
failure.

We can scale humans downward, for we know there are humans smaller than
typical humans today, the Bayaka and Bambenga people of Africa for instance.

We also know that attitudes and outlooks, while usually thought to be
entirely learned behaviors, do have some genetic component, this being
incompletely understood.  So perhaps the key to humankind being more in tune
with nature and Earth-friendly is to give birth to more people who have the
genetic makeup which would compel them to have fewer children.  Those with
the genetic and memetic makeup which compels them to have more children
would then merely need to have fewer children, and those with the genetic
and memetic makeup which compels them to have fewer children must be
encouraged to breed more.

Problem solved.

spike






From seculartranshumanist at gmail.com  Tue Mar 13 22:32:51 2012
From: seculartranshumanist at gmail.com (Joseph Bloch)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 18:32:51 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Atlantic article on human reengineering with very strong
	reactions
In-Reply-To: <00fa01cd014f$5b333860$1199a920$@att.net>
References: <CAJX-7wVcrpNWs_yNp5q5TWh7e7t8eyZWisMhEt7OQ6zMH8naDQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<4F5F294B.1080205@aleph.se>
	<00fa01cd014f$5b333860$1199a920$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAOFRd6h+RBQgRFUjwV1tGMPHb2aw2165NWk6EWMUxcNcCRjejg@mail.gmail.com>

2012/3/13 spike <spike66 at att.net>:
>
>
> Anders, I dropped my teeth this morning.? The local AM radio was all over
> this story, telling of this NYU professor who was urging his students to do
> genetic engineering to make people smaller so that they would be more
> environmentally friendly.? Of course that sold me bigtime: I have long
> advocated for smaller people.? The advantages are many, once you realize
> that so many things scale down as the square and the cube of our linear
> dimension.? For instance, if humans were to evolve to half scale, think of
> how we could scale down houses and cars.? Our current freeway and road
> system would be so very adequate!? Our current farm system would be so
> capable of feeding us.? If we were half scale, we would need only a quarter
> of the amount of food per person.? Our cars would be the size of shopping
> carts, our offices spacious beyond our current ambitions.? Our manned
> spacecraft would be increased in volume by a factor of 8, or reduced in mass
> by the same.

Spike, alas, the idea was anticipated in almost every detail by a
"Superfriends" cartoon from 1973. ;-)

"Gulliver?s Gigantic Goof": Using his micro-wave reducer, mad Dr.
Hiram Gulliver shrinks all adults- including the Superfriends- to two
inches tall to help the population problem (by saving resources)...
and also to rule over them (he will remain full-sized to watch over
the mini population of the world). The Green Arrow joins the
Superfriends to stop him and to return things to normal.

Joseph



From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 13 22:51:50 2012
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 15:51:50 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Eliminate people to reduce 'warming' and 'save Earth?"
In-Reply-To: <CACMJz981fh+z2iqFeqP4M5LHKP3VB6KVnC=iqPpqyb3G56N2mw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEUzo3KL3k0A0BqoOMgt=RAyJ-Q_biiC9uwOkhVFRtXHC5gVkA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CACMJz981fh+z2iqFeqP4M5LHKP3VB6KVnC=iqPpqyb3G56N2mw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1331679110.30308.YahooMailNeo@web164504.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

----- Original Message -----
> From: *Nym* <nymphomation at gmail.com>
> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Cc: 
> Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 8:17 AM
> Subject: Re: [ExI] Eliminate people to reduce 'warming' and 'save Earth?"
> 
> On 13/03/2012, Kevin G Haskell <kgh1kgh2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Do we need to not just stop, but reduce human population in order to stop
>> the "warming of the Earth in order to save it?"
> 
> Perfectly reasonable suggestion & one that many of us have been
> practising for decades.

The problem with reasoned arguments against procreation is that only reasonable people will abstain from procreating. This has the problem of giving?irrational people a huge reproductive advantage. In the parlance of biology, you are?*selecting* for stupid people.?You really want results??Have the Pope tell people that God has had second thoughts about the "be fruitful and multiply" thing. THAT?might do the trick.?In the mean time, I feel the need to urge the smart to breed too. Lest everybody thinks they can outsource being smart to China.

>> Your Gaian worshipers at work:
> 
> Linked page contains no mention of? 'gaia' nor any mention of
> religion. Neither does the article suggest 'eliminating people'.
> 
> 'Support policies that limit human numbers' does not usually mean
> anything more coercive than educating women and allowing everyone
> access to birth control technology.

Tell me about it. If you want a revolution in the middle-east, then don't smuggle them guns, smuggle them birth-control pills instead. But in the long run, we are going to need more living area plain and simple. I suggest not waiting until the earth is as hot and crowded as a space capsule before we start moving.

Stuart LaForge


"The state that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards, and its fighting by fools." -Thucydides.




From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Tue Mar 13 23:43:06 2012
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 16:43:06 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Atlantic article on human reengineering with very strong
	reactions
In-Reply-To: <CAOFRd6h+RBQgRFUjwV1tGMPHb2aw2165NWk6EWMUxcNcCRjejg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJX-7wVcrpNWs_yNp5q5TWh7e7t8eyZWisMhEt7OQ6zMH8naDQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<4F5F294B.1080205@aleph.se>
	<00fa01cd014f$5b333860$1199a920$@att.net>
	<CAOFRd6h+RBQgRFUjwV1tGMPHb2aw2165NWk6EWMUxcNcCRjejg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy1K7o0u9EAZeZfRM1-BBbKyhpWDZioEqCN9c6O0xzp3XA@mail.gmail.com>

Spike wrote:
Anders, I dropped my teeth this morning.  The local AM radio was all over
this story, telling of this NYU professor who was urging his students to do
genetic engineering to make people smaller so that they would be more
environmentally friendly.  Of course that sold me bigtime: I have long
advocated for smaller people.  The advantages are many, once you realize
that so many things scale down as the square and the cube of our linear
dimension.  For instance, if humans were to evolve to half scale, think of
how we could scale down houses and cars.  Our current freeway and road
system would be so very adequate!  Our current farm system would be so
capable of feeding us.  If we were half scale, we would need only a quarter
of the amount of food per person.  Our cars would be the size of shopping
carts, our offices spacious beyond our current ambitions.  Our manned
spacecraft would be increased in volume by a factor of 8, or reduced in
mass by the same.

The local radio DJ was horrified, but I thought it was a great idea. The
notion isn?t to modify our DNA directly, but rather modify our sexual
desires, so that we are attracted to smaller people.  Then the DNA
modification happens by mate selection.
>>>


Well..., considering how fast computers/a.i./robotics/nanotech are
advancing, I don't see how making us smaller, especially by old school mate
selection, is going to be the answer to our problems!  C'mon Spike, put on
that MEGA-ENGINEERING safety hat of yours!  : )


I do love the mental picture of cities full of little people who run around
in shopping cart sized automobiles!  "Oz comes to the 21st century!"
"Everyone is a Munchkin!" lol  I just don't see people going for this,
because it would be seen as a competitive disadvantage for one's offspring,
even if it was an advantage for a culture/nation.  And could you just
imagine the transition period??  And if this happened now, I would be run
out of town for recently having dated a gal who is 6'3! hee


Somtow Sucharitkul wrote a novel called STARSHIP HAIKU, where humans have
been shrunk down to Spikean proportions, due to over-population pressures.
I remember enjoying the novel (I love his Inquestor series, where godlike
enforcers maintain statism and pain among humanity's many
interstellar empires), though I don't recall many details.


A great sf plotline coming from this discussion would be if a race of
"hobbit humans" had survived and thrived to make it to our era, and they
became a great power, perhaps having South America under their
control.  They explore space and wisely use planetary resources in ways
that make the "tall-ees" really jealous!  Oh, but they can certainly fight
and defend their territory.  It would be a fun book.


I think this discussion has been a fun exercise as food for thought.


John  : )


 On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 3:32 PM, Joseph Bloch <
seculartranshumanist at gmail.com> wrote:

> 2012/3/13 spike <spike66 at att.net>:
> >
> >
> > Anders, I dropped my teeth this morning.  The local AM radio was all over
> > this story, telling of this NYU professor who was urging his students to
> do
> > genetic engineering to make people smaller so that they would be more
> > environmentally friendly.  Of course that sold me bigtime: I have long
> > advocated for smaller people.  The advantages are many, once you realize
> > that so many things scale down as the square and the cube of our linear
> > dimension.  For instance, if humans were to evolve to half scale, think
> of
> > how we could scale down houses and cars.  Our current freeway and road
> > system would be so very adequate!  Our current farm system would be so
> > capable of feeding us.  If we were half scale, we would need only a
> quarter
> > of the amount of food per person.  Our cars would be the size of shopping
> > carts, our offices spacious beyond our current ambitions.  Our manned
> > spacecraft would be increased in volume by a factor of 8, or reduced in
> mass
> > by the same.
>
> Spike, alas, the idea was anticipated in almost every detail by a
> "Superfriends" cartoon from 1973. ;-)
>
> "Gulliver?s Gigantic Goof": Using his micro-wave reducer, mad Dr.
> Hiram Gulliver shrinks all adults- including the Superfriends- to two
> inches tall to help the population problem (by saving resources)...
> and also to rule over them (he will remain full-sized to watch over
> the mini population of the world). The Green Arrow joins the
> Superfriends to stop him and to return things to normal.
>
> Joseph
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From msd001 at gmail.com  Wed Mar 14 00:58:14 2012
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 20:58:14 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Pink Slime
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2fG18Xv-4TUKKps5H0uhT2zUpHK619XHZ4hzktiQMCxqA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1331585379.63556.YahooMailNeo@web164506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<CAPoR7a59hdSdeh=bWmavnqQ2zq32dkYMOu1tgp+q1tkG3UwnRA@mail.gmail.com>
	<00f101cd014d$f4cf2c60$de6d8520$@att.net>
	<CAM5aL2fG18Xv-4TUKKps5H0uhT2zUpHK619XHZ4hzktiQMCxqA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOJFdbLqtbyV4xx6z06jCv0_THTYtLOVRH0P4yrdmCxZSL0OXg@mail.gmail.com>

I saw this blog post and it made me think of this thread.

http://monsterbegood.com/2012/03/12/cheap-source-of-protein/


From msd001 at gmail.com  Wed Mar 14 01:28:08 2012
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 21:28:08 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Atlantic article on human reengineering with very strong
	reactions
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armjovL3yTf-H3g2riOLPaGtvJSZP8gNuX_-48Ko+BmKA3w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJX-7wVcrpNWs_yNp5q5TWh7e7t8eyZWisMhEt7OQ6zMH8naDQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<4F5F294B.1080205@aleph.se>
	<00fa01cd014f$5b333860$1199a920$@att.net>
	<CAL_armjovL3yTf-H3g2riOLPaGtvJSZP8gNuX_-48Ko+BmKA3w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOJFdbKiURg5qz0ikSyJq8G4OF69R_sZH0x7vCE2wNJckkBrdA@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 4:33 PM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 2012/3/13 spike scribbled furiously:
>> The notion isn?t to modify our DNA directly, but rather modify our sexual
>> desires, so that we are attracted to smaller people.? Then the DNA
>> modification happens by mate selection.
>
> Sooooo, for you there is no more tall blonde blue-eyed Swedish females
> with legs all the way up to their shoulders?????

Sure, they'll still be in demand - but their shoulders would only be
at a height of 28" from the floor.

Doesn't 100+ years of gravity have a more pronounced (negative) effect
on taller people than shorter?



From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 14 03:09:54 2012
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 20:09:54 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Cheap Source of Protein was Re:  Pink Slime
In-Reply-To: <CAOJFdbLqtbyV4xx6z06jCv0_THTYtLOVRH0P4yrdmCxZSL0OXg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1331585379.63556.YahooMailNeo@web164506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<CAPoR7a59hdSdeh=bWmavnqQ2zq32dkYMOu1tgp+q1tkG3UwnRA@mail.gmail.com>
	<00f101cd014d$f4cf2c60$de6d8520$@att.net>
	<CAM5aL2fG18Xv-4TUKKps5H0uhT2zUpHK619XHZ4hzktiQMCxqA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAOJFdbLqtbyV4xx6z06jCv0_THTYtLOVRH0P4yrdmCxZSL0OXg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1331694594.19109.YahooMailNeo@web164506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

http://edibug.wordpress.com/list-of-edible-insects/
?
Note that their are several species of ants on the list. If one notes that about 1/5th of the terrestrial animal biomass is in ants, one realizes that a simple shift in dietary preferences means we won't be starving any time soon. Also?ant-farming might take on a whole new meaning.?

Stuart LaForge


"The state that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards, and its fighting by fools." -Thucydides. 


----- Original Message -----
> From: Mike Dougherty <msd001 at gmail.com>
> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Cc: 
> Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 5:58 PM
> Subject: Re: [ExI] Pink Slime
> 
> I saw this blog post and it made me think of this thread.
> 
> http://monsterbegood.com/2012/03/12/cheap-source-of-protein/
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> 



From spike66 at att.net  Wed Mar 14 04:21:34 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 21:21:34 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Cheap Source of Protein was Re:  Pink Slime
In-Reply-To: <1331694594.19109.YahooMailNeo@web164506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <1331585379.63556.YahooMailNeo@web164506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>	<CAPoR7a59hdSdeh=bWmavnqQ2zq32dkYMOu1tgp+q1tkG3UwnRA@mail.gmail.com>	<00f101cd014d$f4cf2c60$de6d8520$@att.net>	<CAM5aL2fG18Xv-4TUKKps5H0uhT2zUpHK619XHZ4hzktiQMCxqA@mail.gmail.com>	<CAOJFdbLqtbyV4xx6z06jCv0_THTYtLOVRH0P4yrdmCxZSL0OXg@mail.gmail.com>
	<1331694594.19109.YahooMailNeo@web164506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <001e01cd0199$f1731e90$d4595bb0$@att.net>



>...On Behalf Of The Avantguardian
>...Subject: [ExI] Cheap Source of Protein was Re: Pink Slime

>...http://edibug.wordpress.com/list-of-edible-insects/
?
>... Also?ant-farming might take on a whole new meaning.  Stuart LaForge

Woohoo!  Cool.

Our tastes in food are entirely psychological.  Our stomachs scarcely know
the difference between one beast and another.  If after a good meal, we
learn we had just devoured aardvark, it might cause gastric distress, but if
we went about our merry way and only learned of it several days later, well
I suppose it could cause gastric distress long after the unfortunate beast
had been sent out to sea.

Think of shrimp or prawns.  Had we not been introduced to it in our
childhoods, there is no way we would look at that sea bug and  conclude that
it is food.  Ah yes I know, just my mention of shrimp has you thinking
sushi.  Food is psychological.  If we figure out how to control and
manipulate our appetites, it would be the biggest breakthrough in technology
ever.

spike





From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 14 08:09:37 2012
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 01:09:37 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Atlantic article on human reengineering with very strong
	reactions
In-Reply-To: <CAPoR7a6Bv52-4DYdw4qXGJ1iOsZ9Z+eE9QmvoxB40JYcbDDPKw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJX-7wVcrpNWs_yNp5q5TWh7e7t8eyZWisMhEt7OQ6zMH8naDQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<4F5F294B.1080205@aleph.se>
	<CAPoR7a6Bv52-4DYdw4qXGJ1iOsZ9Z+eE9QmvoxB40JYcbDDPKw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1331712577.9755.YahooMailNeo@web164505.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

>________________________________
>From: Stefano Vaj <stefano.vaj at gmail.com>
>To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> 
>Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 5:25 AM
>Subject: Re: [ExI] Atlantic article on human reengineering with very strong reactions
>
>
>2012/3/13 Anders Sandberg <anders at aleph.se>
>
Don't mind the more boorish comments, Anders. Some people just don't realize that the great unknown they?worship as God doesn't value them over the sparrows of the earth. Besides there is no such thing as bad publicity and you did combine two of the most controversial issues of our times. So congrats.

>
>What's wrong with liquid-state civilisations? :-) 

Whats wrong with a mutually symbiotic civilizations of solid-state and liquid crystal beings each doing what each does best to the benefit of both??VIVAT VITAM.?Long live?life in all its forms.
?
Stuart LaForge



From kryonica at gmail.com  Wed Mar 14 08:26:42 2012
From: kryonica at gmail.com (Kryonica)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 08:26:42 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Pink Slime
In-Reply-To: <CAPoR7a5ZDqitujCE3_diCrgT=WbfO0OddxMdKnaaH96yNiM=pg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1331585379.63556.YahooMailNeo@web164506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<CAPoR7a59hdSdeh=bWmavnqQ2zq32dkYMOu1tgp+q1tkG3UwnRA@mail.gmail.com>
	<25470147-7E2A-4B9F-BA3D-B30BE572F3E3@gmail.com>
	<CAPoR7a5ZDqitujCE3_diCrgT=WbfO0OddxMdKnaaH96yNiM=pg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <19E85B7D-8E2B-492B-A81D-12A3A47D74D7@gmail.com>

In fact they say this morning that the "bad" red meat is pork, beef and lamb and does not include game, which seems to be consistent with a paleo pre-agricultural diet.  However they also advocate for pulses and beans, and to go vegetarian at least one day a week, which is not paleo.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-17349943

On 13 Mar 2012, at 13:00, Stefano Vaj wrote:

> 2012/3/13 Kryonica <kryonica at gmail.com>
> But this morning on BBC news we were once more reminded of the dangers of eating red and processed meat...
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-17345967
> 
> Yes, the key words in my previous messages being "all other things being equal"?
> 
> *If* you have carbos in your diet, the less red meat (or, for that matter, the less of absolutely anything) you eat, the better. For instance, carbos disrupt self-regulation in fat assumptions, and stimulate your body to produce excess colestherol, so that adding further quantities by dietary intake may not really be a good idea.
> 
> Moreover, the assumption that "pink slime" is nutritionally perfect is subject to a likely disproval. 
> 
> Ideally, we should eat meat of healthy animals of an ideal age having died a relatively painless death after a healthy life in the wild, unaffected by the passage of time or inappropriate preservation. 
> 
> This is pretty close to what some hunter-gatherer culture manage(d) to obtain from their environment (eskimos having eg a much lower incidence of cardiovascular diseases...) , and to what we still can obtain in the affluent world with a deliberate and expensive nutritional-savvy effort, but I suspect that it is not really be reflected in the ingredients and status of your average pink slime - or of a mass-market morning sausage, for that matter.
> 
> -- 
> Stefano Vaj
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Wed Mar 14 09:55:00 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 10:55:00 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Pink Slime
In-Reply-To: <00f101cd014d$f4cf2c60$de6d8520$@att.net>
References: <1331585379.63556.YahooMailNeo@web164506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<CAPoR7a59hdSdeh=bWmavnqQ2zq32dkYMOu1tgp+q1tkG3UwnRA@mail.gmail.com>
	<00f101cd014d$f4cf2c60$de6d8520$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a5VBZ-EXffxd2o0NdZmGAYzEYf2QAcV0OB9Bk_x0-CjAg@mail.gmail.com>

2012/3/13 spike <spike66 at att.net>

> Ja, but I want you guys to stop and really ponder what it is that makes
> good meat.  It isn?t flavor really, although that is certainly part of it.
> What makes for good meat is texture. Consider the title of this thread,
> pink slime.  It tells us two things that make for a poor substitute for
> meat: it isn?t the right color and it isn?t the right texture.
>

"Colour" should be easy enough, and if we can engineer the production of
entire, structured body organs for, say, transplant, foie gras should not
be much more difficult than a human liver... :-)

Admittedly, however, one thing is to provide nutritionally-equivalent
proteins to austronauts or to grain-fed people on the border of starvation,
for which some ideal "pink slime" might be enough, another to come up with
a "meatoid" artificial product that be *better* than the original from a
gastronomic point of view. Which it would need to be, especially as long as
it would cost more and not less.

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Wed Mar 14 10:19:34 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 11:19:34 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Pink Slime
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2fG18Xv-4TUKKps5H0uhT2zUpHK619XHZ4hzktiQMCxqA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1331585379.63556.YahooMailNeo@web164506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<CAPoR7a59hdSdeh=bWmavnqQ2zq32dkYMOu1tgp+q1tkG3UwnRA@mail.gmail.com>
	<00f101cd014d$f4cf2c60$de6d8520$@att.net>
	<CAM5aL2fG18Xv-4TUKKps5H0uhT2zUpHK619XHZ4hzktiQMCxqA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a4q4o-VRJREPQx_s=Jpx9i7JeLP0rs0as3YdJKGix1D=w@mail.gmail.com>

2012/3/13 Dave Sill <sparge at gmail.com>

> Why do we need to engineer the perfect meat substitute when we've got
> already got real meat that's relatively inexpensive, nutritious, and
> renewable?
>

Some have utilitarian concerns, even though it is unclear why,
hypothetically, a painless, unexpected death after a decent-condition
living of animal populations which would not otherwise exist at all would
detract much from the happiness/suffering balance in the universe.

For the rest of us, the interest of meatoid is basically twofold:

- It might provide a more efficient way of producing animal proteins,
without the waste involved in breeding full-fledged animals around them
(who burn calories for other purposes, grow inedible parts, etc.): in this
respect, it would be the same of cloning a liver rather than cloning an
entire individual, *The Island*-style, and then perform a transplant. This
could also be a way out of the conundrum introduced by the neolithic
revolution (quantity or quality?), allowing us to have our pie and eat it
too.

- At least theoretically, it might be engineered as a "superior" product,
in terms of gastronomic and/or nutritional qualities and/or consistency
across product units, same as a replicant in comparison with a "natural"
human being with its genetic and phenotypic vagaries. Economics of
manufacturing here would not really count, as long as meatoid
price-perfomance ratio were still better than meat, allowing it to be
marketed as a luxury product.

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From kryonica at gmail.com  Wed Mar 14 10:17:51 2012
From: kryonica at gmail.com (Kryonica)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 10:17:51 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Pink Slime
In-Reply-To: <CAPoR7a5VBZ-EXffxd2o0NdZmGAYzEYf2QAcV0OB9Bk_x0-CjAg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1331585379.63556.YahooMailNeo@web164506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<CAPoR7a59hdSdeh=bWmavnqQ2zq32dkYMOu1tgp+q1tkG3UwnRA@mail.gmail.com>
	<00f101cd014d$f4cf2c60$de6d8520$@att.net>
	<CAPoR7a5VBZ-EXffxd2o0NdZmGAYzEYf2QAcV0OB9Bk_x0-CjAg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <162AA354-65BD-47A2-9F8F-8E289EA7F1AC@gmail.com>

Continental Europeans, of which I am one, are VERY finicky on the flavour and texture of their foie gras.  I think that it is only the day when French scientists with French taste buds  and familiar with French standards of gastronomy decide to produce artificial foie gras - and any other meat - that we will begin to get products that replace the kind of foie gras that I want to eat.  There are a lot of different goose and duck livers with a variety of textures and flavours, some not nice, others delicious, many just ordinary.  Artificial goose liver will be on my plate the day it is as tasty as the very best liver found today.  The same goes for fillet of beef. Ask anyone from Argentina.  Food should be good, not just nutritious.  "Good" here means prize-winningly Three Star Michelin-ishly yummy.
On 14 Mar 2012, at 09:55, Stefano Vaj wrote:

> 2012/3/13 spike <spike66 at att.net>
> Ja, but I want you guys to stop and really ponder what it is that makes good meat.  It isn?t flavor really, although that is certainly part of it.  What makes for good meat is texture. Consider the title of this thread, pink slime.  It tells us two things that make for a poor substitute for meat: it isn?t the right color and it isn?t the right texture. 
> 
> 
> "Colour" should be easy enough, and if we can engineer the production of entire, structured body organs for, say, transplant, foie gras should not be much more difficult than a human liver... :-)
> 
> Admittedly, however, one thing is to provide nutritionally-equivalent proteins to austronauts or to grain-fed people on the border of starvation, for which some ideal "pink slime" might be enough, another to come up with a "meatoid" artificial product that be *better* than the original from a gastronomic point of view. Which it would need to be, especially as long as it would cost more and not less.
> 
> -- 
> Stefano Vaj
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

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From anders at aleph.se  Wed Mar 14 10:05:51 2012
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 10:05:51 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Cheap Source of Protein was Re:  Pink Slime
In-Reply-To: <001e01cd0199$f1731e90$d4595bb0$@att.net>
References: <1331585379.63556.YahooMailNeo@web164506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>	<CAPoR7a59hdSdeh=bWmavnqQ2zq32dkYMOu1tgp+q1tkG3UwnRA@mail.gmail.com>	<00f101cd014d$f4cf2c60$de6d8520$@att.net>	<CAM5aL2fG18Xv-4TUKKps5H0uhT2zUpHK619XHZ4hzktiQMCxqA@mail.gmail.com>	<CAOJFdbLqtbyV4xx6z06jCv0_THTYtLOVRH0P4yrdmCxZSL0OXg@mail.gmail.com>
	<1331694594.19109.YahooMailNeo@web164506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<001e01cd0199$f1731e90$d4595bb0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <4F606D7F.5080909@aleph.se>

On 14/03/2012 04:21, spike wrote:
> Think of shrimp or prawns.

Did someone mention sushi? :-)

Yes, food preferences are surprisingly flexible. One constant however is 
that all cultures have a fairly narrow list of "acceptable" meat and 
regards anything else as weird or disgusting. What ends up on what list 
is largely due to upbringing.

Getting proteins from insects is likely a smart move: very productive, 
low GHG emissions, less ethical concern than vertebrates. There might be 
an allergy issue: people with allergy to prawns apparently cannot handle 
many insects, likely because they are allergic to arthropods in general. 
So we cannot entirely rely on insects for food, unless we cure those 
allergies.

Another problem is size. I of course want to solve it by rearing the 
insects in a high oxygen environment so they grow larger...

Eating at the lowest level possible in the nutrient chain increases the 
available food a lot, and lowers risk of toxin accumulation. Algae and 
designer yeasts can be very useful.

-- 
Anders Sandberg,
Future of Humanity Institute
Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University



From anders at aleph.se  Wed Mar 14 10:31:17 2012
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 10:31:17 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Pink Slime
In-Reply-To: <162AA354-65BD-47A2-9F8F-8E289EA7F1AC@gmail.com>
References: <1331585379.63556.YahooMailNeo@web164506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<CAPoR7a59hdSdeh=bWmavnqQ2zq32dkYMOu1tgp+q1tkG3UwnRA@mail.gmail.com>
	<00f101cd014d$f4cf2c60$de6d8520$@att.net>
	<CAPoR7a5VBZ-EXffxd2o0NdZmGAYzEYf2QAcV0OB9Bk_x0-CjAg@mail.gmail.com>
	<162AA354-65BD-47A2-9F8F-8E289EA7F1AC@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4F607375.8070901@aleph.se>

On 14/03/2012 10:17, Kryonica wrote:
> Food should be good, not just nutritious.  "Good" here means 
> prize-winningly Three Star Michelin-ishly yummy.

Yes. This is why I am so interested in Myhrvold's "Modernist Cuisine". 
The stuff I have seen from the tomes suggest that he is serious about 
bringing yumminess into the 21st century... with Science!

http://modernistcuisine.com/

(Modernist cooking seems to refrain from the more eccentric or 
experimental aspects of molecular gastronomy - certainly the gels, foams 
and dusts are there, but now integrated into dishes rather than the main 
point.)

-- 
Anders Sandberg,
Future of Humanity Institute
Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University



From kryonica at gmail.com  Wed Mar 14 10:27:29 2012
From: kryonica at gmail.com (Kryonica)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 10:27:29 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Cheap Source of Protein was Re:  Pink Slime
In-Reply-To: <4F606D7F.5080909@aleph.se>
References: <1331585379.63556.YahooMailNeo@web164506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>	<CAPoR7a59hdSdeh=bWmavnqQ2zq32dkYMOu1tgp+q1tkG3UwnRA@mail.gmail.com>	<00f101cd014d$f4cf2c60$de6d8520$@att.net>	<CAM5aL2fG18Xv-4TUKKps5H0uhT2zUpHK619XHZ4hzktiQMCxqA@mail.gmail.com>	<CAOJFdbLqtbyV4xx6z06jCv0_THTYtLOVRH0P4yrdmCxZSL0OXg@mail.gmail.com>
	<1331694594.19109.YahooMailNeo@web164506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<001e01cd0199$f1731e90$d4595bb0$@att.net>
	<4F606D7F.5080909@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <D35AD130-CE21-43E7-942F-FBB6B02D3F76@gmail.com>

Yuck!
On 14 Mar 2012, at 10:05, Anders Sandberg wrote:

> Getting proteins from insects is likely a smart move

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From kryonica at gmail.com  Wed Mar 14 10:36:06 2012
From: kryonica at gmail.com (Kryonica)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 10:36:06 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Pink Slime
In-Reply-To: <4F607375.8070901@aleph.se>
References: <1331585379.63556.YahooMailNeo@web164506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<CAPoR7a59hdSdeh=bWmavnqQ2zq32dkYMOu1tgp+q1tkG3UwnRA@mail.gmail.com>
	<00f101cd014d$f4cf2c60$de6d8520$@att.net>
	<CAPoR7a5VBZ-EXffxd2o0NdZmGAYzEYf2QAcV0OB9Bk_x0-CjAg@mail.gmail.com>
	<162AA354-65BD-47A2-9F8F-8E289EA7F1AC@gmail.com>
	<4F607375.8070901@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <F52A0AA0-4065-49CA-8AEA-4238D2D565BA@gmail.com>

Scientific yumminess! Will there be Nobel prizes in gastronomy then to scientists that create new and irresistible flavours?
On 14 Mar 2012, at 10:31, Anders Sandberg wrote:

> On 14/03/2012 10:17, Kryonica wrote:
>> Food should be good, not just nutritious.  "Good" here means prize-winningly Three Star Michelin-ishly yummy.
> 
> Yes. This is why I am so interested in Myhrvold's "Modernist Cuisine". The stuff I have seen from the tomes suggest that he is serious about bringing yumminess into the 21st century... with Science!
> 
> http://modernistcuisine.com/
> 
> (Modernist cooking seems to refrain from the more eccentric or experimental aspects of molecular gastronomy - certainly the gels, foams and dusts are there, but now integrated into dishes rather than the main point.)
> 
> -- 
> Anders Sandberg,
> Future of Humanity Institute
> Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat




From eugen at leitl.org  Wed Mar 14 10:44:25 2012
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 11:44:25 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Cheap Source of Protein was Re:  Pink Slime
In-Reply-To: <4F606D7F.5080909@aleph.se>
References: <1331585379.63556.YahooMailNeo@web164506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<CAPoR7a59hdSdeh=bWmavnqQ2zq32dkYMOu1tgp+q1tkG3UwnRA@mail.gmail.com>
	<00f101cd014d$f4cf2c60$de6d8520$@att.net>
	<CAM5aL2fG18Xv-4TUKKps5H0uhT2zUpHK619XHZ4hzktiQMCxqA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAOJFdbLqtbyV4xx6z06jCv0_THTYtLOVRH0P4yrdmCxZSL0OXg@mail.gmail.com>
	<1331694594.19109.YahooMailNeo@web164506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<001e01cd0199$f1731e90$d4595bb0$@att.net>
	<4F606D7F.5080909@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <20120314104425.GO9891@leitl.org>

On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 10:05:51AM +0000, Anders Sandberg wrote:

> Eating at the lowest level possible in the nutrient chain increases the  
> available food a lot, and lowers risk of toxin accumulation. Algae and  
> designer yeasts can be very useful.

Algaculture has a long history in human food production, and with
today's embedded controllers you could even run a roof photobioreactor
effectively while scrubing CO2/NOx and possibly recycle nitrogen and
phosphates. Of course there's the problem of pharmaceutical load in
human urine, nevermind the yuck factor (somehow it's okay to put
urine on compost or water plants with 1:10 diluted urine, but not if
you use it in algaculture, except for animal food).


From anders at aleph.se  Wed Mar 14 10:47:00 2012
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 10:47:00 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Atlantic article on human reengineering with very strong
 reactions
In-Reply-To: <1331712577.9755.YahooMailNeo@web164505.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <CAJX-7wVcrpNWs_yNp5q5TWh7e7t8eyZWisMhEt7OQ6zMH8naDQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<4F5F294B.1080205@aleph.se>
	<CAPoR7a6Bv52-4DYdw4qXGJ1iOsZ9Z+eE9QmvoxB40JYcbDDPKw@mail.gmail.com>
	<1331712577.9755.YahooMailNeo@web164505.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4F607724.5000802@aleph.se>

On 13/03/2012 12:20, Mike Dougherty wrote:
> I agree that's A plan, but the ONLY one?

No, of course not. I think one of the big problems with most climate 
discussions is that people have formed very tight camps around certain 
plans, and absolutely refuse to countenance mentions of other 
possibilities. I suspect that real climate solutions will be messy mixes 
of approaches.


On 14/03/2012 08:09, The Avantguardian wrote:
> Don't mind the more boorish comments, Anders. Some people just don't realize that the great unknown they worship as God doesn't value them over the sparrows of the earth. Besides there is no such thing as bad publicity and you did combine two of the most controversial issues of our times. So congrats.

Thanks. Actually, many of the worst comments come from groups that I 
have absolutely no respect for, so they paradoxically boost my ego. Who 
knew there was so many bioconservative climate denialists? I always 
believed the biggest rage would be from the more normal greens.


On 13/03/2012 19:27, spike wrote:
> Of course that sold me bigtime: I have long advocated for smaller people.

I actually think that was why I came up with the idea in our discussions 
while writing the paper. I remembered some of our earlier discussions 
about reduced Mars expeditions.


> The notion isn't to modify our DNA directly, but rather modify our sexual desires, so that we are attracted to smaller people.  Then the DNA modification happens by mate selection.

That is going to take a long while... but it will fun doing it.

Of course, I am already together with a tall blond Swede, so I might be 
out of the game for the moment :-)


-- 
Anders Sandberg,
Future of Humanity Institute
Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University

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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Wed Mar 14 10:58:14 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 11:58:14 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Eliminate people to reduce 'warming' and 'save Earth?"
In-Reply-To: <1331679110.30308.YahooMailNeo@web164504.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <CAEUzo3KL3k0A0BqoOMgt=RAyJ-Q_biiC9uwOkhVFRtXHC5gVkA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CACMJz981fh+z2iqFeqP4M5LHKP3VB6KVnC=iqPpqyb3G56N2mw@mail.gmail.com>
	<1331679110.30308.YahooMailNeo@web164504.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a4Ac2PCrUqbGMsbGrfSj2xcjqY5+O39KYbFNws-3ntbsQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 13 March 2012 23:51, The Avantguardian <avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com>wrote:

> The problem with reasoned arguments against procreation is that only
> reasonable people will abstain from procreating.
>

There a few marginal qualifications (eg, strategies based on either
relatively high or low parental investments are both Darwinistically
plausible, and are widely adopted across and within species...), but this
is the core of it.

Moreover, natura abhorret vacuum, and whatever resources are spared by one
genetic lineage are in principle exploited by another, not saved for the
future welfare of Mother Earth or whatever.

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From giogavir at yahoo.it  Wed Mar 14 11:08:10 2012
From: giogavir at yahoo.it (giorgio gaviraghi)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 11:08:10 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [ExI] Eliminate people to reduce 'warming' and 'save Earth?"
In-Reply-To: <CAPoR7a4Ac2PCrUqbGMsbGrfSj2xcjqY5+O39KYbFNws-3ntbsQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEUzo3KL3k0A0BqoOMgt=RAyJ-Q_biiC9uwOkhVFRtXHC5gVkA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CACMJz981fh+z2iqFeqP4M5LHKP3VB6KVnC=iqPpqyb3G56N2mw@mail.gmail.com>
	<1331679110.30308.YahooMailNeo@web164504.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<CAPoR7a4Ac2PCrUqbGMsbGrfSj2xcjqY5+O39KYbFNws-3ntbsQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1331723290.96620.YahooMailNeo@web28615.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

Joe 
we measure the
areas directly with CAD? The habitat cylinder surface is like a developed rectangle, 1Km wide by 1.864Km long
total area 1.864 sq Kms. the inner cylindres are smaller since they have the lenght, 1Km , in common but the radius is smaller .
Giorgio
?
 

________________________________
 Da: Stefano Vaj <stefano.vaj at gmail.com>
A: The Avantguardian <avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com>; ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> 
Inviato: Mercoled? 14 Marzo 2012 7:58
Oggetto: Re: [ExI] Eliminate people to reduce 'warming' and 'save Earth?"
  

On 13 March 2012 23:51, The Avantguardian <avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com> wrote:

The problem with reasoned arguments against procreation is that only reasonable people will abstain from procreating.
>
There a few marginal qualifications (eg, strategies based on either relatively high or low parental investments are both Darwinistically plausible, and are widely adopted across and within species...), but this is the core of it.

Moreover, natura abhorret vacuum, and whatever resources are spared by one genetic lineage are in principle exploited by another, not saved for the future welfare of Mother Earth or whatever.

-- 
Stefano Vaj

_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
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From kryonica at gmail.com  Wed Mar 14 12:10:40 2012
From: kryonica at gmail.com (Kryonica)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 12:10:40 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Decelerating birth rates worldwide
Message-ID: <8AE94E23-0289-449E-8744-E8807C2993AD@gmail.com>

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/13/opinion/brooks-the-fertility-implosion.html?_r=1

Why we need rejuvenation therapies for the 2030ies at the latest.


From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Wed Mar 14 12:14:39 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 13:14:39 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Pink Slime
In-Reply-To: <162AA354-65BD-47A2-9F8F-8E289EA7F1AC@gmail.com>
References: <1331585379.63556.YahooMailNeo@web164506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<CAPoR7a59hdSdeh=bWmavnqQ2zq32dkYMOu1tgp+q1tkG3UwnRA@mail.gmail.com>
	<00f101cd014d$f4cf2c60$de6d8520$@att.net>
	<CAPoR7a5VBZ-EXffxd2o0NdZmGAYzEYf2QAcV0OB9Bk_x0-CjAg@mail.gmail.com>
	<162AA354-65BD-47A2-9F8F-8E289EA7F1AC@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a4zxZX5V5otypZchN+cEWgaoa+KZQbV7gF57nt-FLdVAQ@mail.gmail.com>

2012/3/14 Kryonica <kryonica at gmail.com>

> There are a lot of different goose and duck livers with a variety of
> textures and flavours, some not nice, others delicious, many just ordinary.
>  Artificial goose liver will be on my plate the day it is as tasty as the
> very best liver found today.  The same goes for fillet of beef. Ask anyone
> from Argentina.  Food should be good, not just nutritious.  "Good" here
> means prize-winningly Three Star Michelin-ishly yummy.
>

Yes, I agree with that. I do not know exactly what "better than best" may
mean, having never tried it, even though theoretically it should always be
possible (including in the sense of serving variance in personal tastes...)
but the artificial thing would *already* have an edge if it allowed us
simply to have the very best consistently.

Something which is very difficult even with top-of-the-line "natural"
products, given that we do not really control all the relevant factors
unless roughly.

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Wed Mar 14 12:18:59 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 13:18:59 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Cheap Source of Protein was Re: Pink Slime
In-Reply-To: <1331694594.19109.YahooMailNeo@web164506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <1331585379.63556.YahooMailNeo@web164506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<CAPoR7a59hdSdeh=bWmavnqQ2zq32dkYMOu1tgp+q1tkG3UwnRA@mail.gmail.com>
	<00f101cd014d$f4cf2c60$de6d8520$@att.net>
	<CAM5aL2fG18Xv-4TUKKps5H0uhT2zUpHK619XHZ4hzktiQMCxqA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAOJFdbLqtbyV4xx6z06jCv0_THTYtLOVRH0P4yrdmCxZSL0OXg@mail.gmail.com>
	<1331694594.19109.YahooMailNeo@web164506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a4K4r_cYcXts6kamYaCKKDXf2x-OJHGURta3eAUu=RpHg@mail.gmail.com>

On 14 March 2012 04:09, The Avantguardian <avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com>wrote:

> http://edibug.wordpress.com/list-of-edible-insects/
>
> Note that their are several species of ants on the list. If one notes that
> about 1/5th of the terrestrial animal biomass is in ants
>

I hear such assessments from time to time, but really ants would be 1/5 of
the entire biomass, including other all insects, protozoa, plancton, algae,
terrestrial vegetals, etc.?!

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From pharos at gmail.com  Wed Mar 14 12:37:28 2012
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 12:37:28 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Cheap Source of Protein was Re: Pink Slime
In-Reply-To: <CAPoR7a4K4r_cYcXts6kamYaCKKDXf2x-OJHGURta3eAUu=RpHg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1331585379.63556.YahooMailNeo@web164506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<CAPoR7a59hdSdeh=bWmavnqQ2zq32dkYMOu1tgp+q1tkG3UwnRA@mail.gmail.com>
	<00f101cd014d$f4cf2c60$de6d8520$@att.net>
	<CAM5aL2fG18Xv-4TUKKps5H0uhT2zUpHK619XHZ4hzktiQMCxqA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAOJFdbLqtbyV4xx6z06jCv0_THTYtLOVRH0P4yrdmCxZSL0OXg@mail.gmail.com>
	<1331694594.19109.YahooMailNeo@web164506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<CAPoR7a4K4r_cYcXts6kamYaCKKDXf2x-OJHGURta3eAUu=RpHg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armgXZdoA7XBBncZMRzjs6oPkaB87rhvnV4nxDyO-A59WEA@mail.gmail.com>

On 2012/3/14 Stefano Vaj ha scritto:
> I hear such assessments from time to time, but really ants would be 1/5 of
> the entire biomass, including other all insects, protozoa, plancton, algae,
> terrestrial vegetals, etc.?!
>
>

No. The estimates are 15-20% of the
*terrestrial animal biomass*, and in tropical regions where ants are
especially abundant, they monopolize 25% or more.
(excludes Ocean biomass and Bacterial biomass).

See: <http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=536123>

BillK


From pharos at gmail.com  Wed Mar 14 12:48:04 2012
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 12:48:04 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Decelerating birth rates worldwide
In-Reply-To: <8AE94E23-0289-449E-8744-E8807C2993AD@gmail.com>
References: <8AE94E23-0289-449E-8744-E8807C2993AD@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armg_Y2mDFHJ_L=3iEheP6NTBx0Uy4oQodaC_xW6E96q=EQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 12:10 PM, Kryonica  wrote:
> http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/13/opinion/brooks-the-fertility-implosion.html?_r=1
>
> Why we need rejuvenation therapies for the 2030ies at the latest.
>


While it is good that women are becoming empowered in the developing
countries and thus reducing the birth rate there is another problem
not mentioned in the article.

Gender selection. The reduced birth rate in developing countries is
also attached to a preference for male children. So, many males in the
younger generation will be unable to marry and have a family.  This
could lead to disruption in their society.


BillK


From kryonica at gmail.com  Wed Mar 14 12:50:48 2012
From: kryonica at gmail.com (Kryonica)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 12:50:48 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Decelerating birth rates worldwide
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armg_Y2mDFHJ_L=3iEheP6NTBx0Uy4oQodaC_xW6E96q=EQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8AE94E23-0289-449E-8744-E8807C2993AD@gmail.com>
	<CAL_armg_Y2mDFHJ_L=3iEheP6NTBx0Uy4oQodaC_xW6E96q=EQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9D55C4BF-BF47-4EED-B15C-C2684048BD48@gmail.com>

So we also need to grow babies in vats then? :-)
On 14 Mar 2012, at 12:48, BillK wrote:

> On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 12:10 PM, Kryonica  wrote:
>> http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/13/opinion/brooks-the-fertility-implosion.html?_r=1
>> 
>> Why we need rejuvenation therapies for the 2030ies at the latest.
>> 
> 
> 
> While it is good that women are becoming empowered in the developing
> countries and thus reducing the birth rate there is another problem
> not mentioned in the article.
> 
> Gender selection. The reduced birth rate in developing countries is
> also attached to a preference for male children. So, many males in the
> younger generation will be unable to marry and have a family.  This
> could lead to disruption in their society.
> 
> 
> BillK
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat




From eugen at leitl.org  Wed Mar 14 13:03:58 2012
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 14:03:58 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Atlantic article on human reengineering with very
	strong	reactions
In-Reply-To: <CAPoR7a6Bv52-4DYdw4qXGJ1iOsZ9Z+eE9QmvoxB40JYcbDDPKw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJX-7wVcrpNWs_yNp5q5TWh7e7t8eyZWisMhEt7OQ6zMH8naDQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<4F5F294B.1080205@aleph.se>
	<CAPoR7a6Bv52-4DYdw4qXGJ1iOsZ9Z+eE9QmvoxB40JYcbDDPKw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120314130358.GC9891@leitl.org>

On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 01:25:42PM +0100, Stefano Vaj wrote:
> 2012/3/13 Anders Sandberg <anders at aleph.se>
> 
> > And of course, the only long-term sustainable approach is to become a
> > solid state civilization...
> >
> 
> What's wrong with liquid-state civilisations? :-)

Physics of computation requires a rigid lattice in
order to maximize the rate of Ops/J/volume.

Liquid may be useful in cooling, but even then there's
a trade-off (reduction in functionality concentration,
introduction of vibrations distorting circuit geometry
and contaminating species (think graphene electronics
and spintronics).

Some like it radiant-cooled glowing hot, some hard and old, millikelvin cold.


From eugen at leitl.org  Wed Mar 14 13:05:13 2012
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 14:05:13 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Atlantic article on human reengineering with very
	strong	reactions
In-Reply-To: <CAOJFdbK2wD4M97=RmynmQMkDJNG_j5C-huCCM2-sGrkbRjm1zg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJX-7wVcrpNWs_yNp5q5TWh7e7t8eyZWisMhEt7OQ6zMH8naDQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<4F5F294B.1080205@aleph.se>
	<CAOJFdbK2wD4M97=RmynmQMkDJNG_j5C-huCCM2-sGrkbRjm1zg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120314130513.GD9891@leitl.org>

On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 08:20:25AM -0400, Mike Dougherty wrote:
> 2012/3/13 Anders Sandberg <anders at aleph.se>:
> > And of course, the only long-term sustainable approach is to become a solid
> > state civilization...
> > http://www.aleph.se/andart/archives/2009/03/a_really_green_and_sustainable_humanity.html
> 
> I agree that's A plan, but the ONLY one?

Nothing can touch solid-state. What would be the alternatives?


From cetico.iconoclasta at gmail.com  Wed Mar 14 12:50:58 2012
From: cetico.iconoclasta at gmail.com (Henrique Moraes Machado)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 09:50:58 -0300
Subject: [ExI] Self-Charged Graphene Battery Harvests Electricity from
	Thermal Energy of the Environment
Message-ID: <00ae01cd01e1$1d270be0$577523a0$@gmail.com>

So, what do you think of this?

-----
http://arxiv.org/abs/1203.0161

Self-Charged Graphene Battery Harvests Electricity from Thermal Energy of
the Environment

The energy of ionic thermal motion presents universally, which is as high as
4 kJ\bullet kg-1\bullet K-1 in aqueous solution, where thermal velocity of
ions is in the order of hundreds of meters per second at room
temperature1,2. Moreover, the thermal velocity of ions can be maintained by
the external environment, which means it is unlimited. However, little study
has been reported on converting the ionic thermal energy into electricity.
Here we present a graphene device with asymmetric electrodes configuration
to capture such ionic thermal energy and convert it into electricity. An
output voltage around 0.35 V was generated when the device was dipped into
saturated CuCl2 solution, in which this value lasted over twenty days. A
positive correlation between the open-circuit voltage and the temperature,
as well as the cation concentration, was observed. Furthermore, we
demonstrated that this finding is of practical value by lighting a
commercial light-emitting diode up with six of such graphene devices
connected in series. This finding provides a new way to understand the
behavior of graphene at molecular scale and represents a huge breakthrough
for the research of self-powered technology. Moreover, the finding will
benefit quite a few applications, such as artificial organs, clean renewable
energy and portable electronics.



From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Wed Mar 14 13:31:49 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 14:31:49 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Atlantic article on human reengineering with very strong
	reactions
In-Reply-To: <20120314130358.GC9891@leitl.org>
References: <CAJX-7wVcrpNWs_yNp5q5TWh7e7t8eyZWisMhEt7OQ6zMH8naDQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<4F5F294B.1080205@aleph.se>
	<CAPoR7a6Bv52-4DYdw4qXGJ1iOsZ9Z+eE9QmvoxB40JYcbDDPKw@mail.gmail.com>
	<20120314130358.GC9891@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a6ceaQ3fY+85AnhQbNSPkGRscM=mRcpS7tZmse-8LCEQQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 14 March 2012 14:03, Eugen Leitl <eugen at leitl.org> wrote:

> Physics of computation requires a rigid lattice in
> order to maximize the rate of Ops/J/volume.
>

I never gave it much thought, but I remember some speculation as to the
degree of computation performed in principle in stellar plasma, which is
not really "rigid" in any usual sense...

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 14 13:27:07 2012
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 06:27:07 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Atlantic article on human reengineering with very strong
	reactions
In-Reply-To: <20120314130513.GD9891@leitl.org>
References: <CAJX-7wVcrpNWs_yNp5q5TWh7e7t8eyZWisMhEt7OQ6zMH8naDQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<4F5F294B.1080205@aleph.se>
	<CAOJFdbK2wD4M97=RmynmQMkDJNG_j5C-huCCM2-sGrkbRjm1zg@mail.gmail.com>
	<20120314130513.GD9891@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <1331731627.80285.YahooMailNeo@web164503.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>




----- Original Message -----
> From: Eugen Leitl <eugen at leitl.org>
> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Cc: 
> Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 6:05 AM
> Subject: Re: [ExI] Atlantic article on human reengineering with very strong reactions
> 
> On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 08:20:25AM -0400, Mike Dougherty wrote:
>> 2012/3/13 Anders Sandberg <anders at aleph.se>:
>> > And of course, the only long-term sustainable approach is to become a 
> solid
>> > state civilization...
>> > 
> http://www.aleph.se/andart/archives/2009/03/a_really_green_and_sustainable_humanity.html
>> 
>> I agree that's A plan, but the ONLY one?
> 
> Nothing can touch solid-state. What would be the alternatives?

Intelligent swarms of nano-replicators? Cyborgs, iBorgs, in a pinch maybe even?you with a stick. Solid state will probably have its day when?apha is larger. Then even catalysis wont help wet-ware.?Till then water deserves to feel as well.
?
Stuart LaForge
?
"The state that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards, and its fighting by fools." -Thucydides. 




From eugen at leitl.org  Wed Mar 14 13:49:33 2012
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 14:49:33 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Atlantic article on human reengineering with very
	strong	reactions
In-Reply-To: <CAPoR7a6ceaQ3fY+85AnhQbNSPkGRscM=mRcpS7tZmse-8LCEQQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJX-7wVcrpNWs_yNp5q5TWh7e7t8eyZWisMhEt7OQ6zMH8naDQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<4F5F294B.1080205@aleph.se>
	<CAPoR7a6Bv52-4DYdw4qXGJ1iOsZ9Z+eE9QmvoxB40JYcbDDPKw@mail.gmail.com>
	<20120314130358.GC9891@leitl.org>
	<CAPoR7a6ceaQ3fY+85AnhQbNSPkGRscM=mRcpS7tZmse-8LCEQQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120314134933.GL9891@leitl.org>

On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 02:31:49PM +0100, Stefano Vaj wrote:

> I never gave it much thought, but I remember some speculation as to the
> degree of computation performed in principle in stellar plasma, which is
> not really "rigid" in any usual sense...

How do you make a machine from plasma? 

I mean, we have theoretical constraints from computability, e.g.
by Seth Lloyd, but they're meaningless for practical devices.


From eugen at leitl.org  Wed Mar 14 14:02:42 2012
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 15:02:42 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Atlantic article on human reengineering with very
	strong	reactions
In-Reply-To: <1331731627.80285.YahooMailNeo@web164503.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <CAJX-7wVcrpNWs_yNp5q5TWh7e7t8eyZWisMhEt7OQ6zMH8naDQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<4F5F294B.1080205@aleph.se>
	<CAOJFdbK2wD4M97=RmynmQMkDJNG_j5C-huCCM2-sGrkbRjm1zg@mail.gmail.com>
	<20120314130513.GD9891@leitl.org>
	<1331731627.80285.YahooMailNeo@web164503.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20120314140242.GM9891@leitl.org>

On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 06:27:07AM -0700, The Avantguardian wrote:

> > Nothing can touch solid-state. What would be the alternatives?
> 
> Intelligent swarms of nano-replicators? 

I don't know why you mention matter manipulation,
we're talking about the ultimate limits of classical
computation. You could use a piece of a molecular
circuit to control a matter-manipulating machine
to build many things, including bulk molecular circuitry.

If you want to maximize the rate of bit tweakage,
they you minimize the dead volume so you minimize
relativistic latency so your light cone bases
sit tighter. Classically, you can't getter better
than a closest packing (e.g. hcp) of invidual
cells, an information crystal. If you never erase
bits (reversible computation) then you don't have
to worry about Landauer's limit (but it might be
too slow for practical use, as evolution selects
for fastest systems within attainable metabolic
footprint.

> Cyborgs, iBorgs, in a pinch maybe even?you with a stick. 

What we've got here is failure to communicate.

> Solid state will probably have its day when?apha is larger. 

Solid state is down to small atom groups and single
spins in the lab. I'd say that's within touching distance
of the fundamental limits, if scaled up to volume.

> Then even catalysis wont help wet-ware.?Till then water deserves to feel as well.

Some men you just can't reach.


From anders at aleph.se  Wed Mar 14 14:29:31 2012
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 14:29:31 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Atlantic article on human reengineering with very strong
 reactions
In-Reply-To: <20120314130358.GC9891@leitl.org>
References: <CAJX-7wVcrpNWs_yNp5q5TWh7e7t8eyZWisMhEt7OQ6zMH8naDQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<4F5F294B.1080205@aleph.se>
	<CAPoR7a6Bv52-4DYdw4qXGJ1iOsZ9Z+eE9QmvoxB40JYcbDDPKw@mail.gmail.com>
	<20120314130358.GC9891@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <4F60AB4B.5070107@aleph.se>

Incidentlly, The Guardian has a nice blog post where we get to defend 
ourselves.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/blog/2012/mar/14/human-engineering-climate-change-philosophy

Perhaps most interesting because it mentions that:

> Bill McKibben tweeted 
> <https://twitter.com/#%21/billmckibben/status/179338270180786176> that 
> the paper contained the "worst climate change solutions of all time". 

Now that is high praise indeed! Almost on par with Fukuyama writing that 
transhumanism is the world's most dangerous idea.


-- 
Anders Sandberg,
Future of Humanity Institute
Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University

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From kellycoinguy at gmail.com  Wed Mar 14 13:53:16 2012
From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 07:53:16 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Atlantic article on human reengineering with very strong
	reactions
In-Reply-To: <00fa01cd014f$5b333860$1199a920$@att.net>
References: <CAJX-7wVcrpNWs_yNp5q5TWh7e7t8eyZWisMhEt7OQ6zMH8naDQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<4F5F294B.1080205@aleph.se>
	<00fa01cd014f$5b333860$1199a920$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAPy8Rwa--kjbOjo5LRMj1PnaT3_6BK+9oM6+6rT8SyVokbRCPA@mail.gmail.com>

2012/3/13 spike <spike66 at att.net>:
>>? On Behalf Of Anders Sandberg
> Subject: Re: [ExI] Atlantic article on human reengineering with very strong
> reactions
>
>>?And of course, the only long-term sustainable approach is to become a
>> solid state civilization...
> http://www.aleph.se/andart/archives/2009/03/a_really_green_and_sustainable_humanity.html
> -- Anders Sandberg,
>
> The notion isn?t to modify our DNA directly, but rather modify our sexual
> desires, so that we are attracted to smaller people.? Then the DNA
> modification happens by mate selection.

I'm with the general plan of smaller people up to this point...
(didn't read the original article this time) first anything that is to
happen by natural selection is going to take too long to be useful to
the problems we may face (If we do really face resource problems, but
that's another thread that's been beat half to death), and second just
because everyone in the world is attracted to Angelina Jolie, that
doesn't mean we all only mate with her... even if we would like to.
Lots of people settle for the leftovers after all the pretty people
are taken. So being repulsed by tall women won't make us mate much
less with them. Overall, it's just too slow a solution. On a
geological scale global warming is a nearly instantaneous event. We
cannot fight it with evolutionary speed and hope to make any
measurable progress.

-Kelly



From spike66 at att.net  Wed Mar 14 14:43:34 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 07:43:34 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Cheap Source of Protein was Re:  Pink Slime
In-Reply-To: <D35AD130-CE21-43E7-942F-FBB6B02D3F76@gmail.com>
References: <1331585379.63556.YahooMailNeo@web164506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>	<CAPoR7a59hdSdeh=bWmavnqQ2zq32dkYMOu1tgp+q1tkG3UwnRA@mail.gmail.com>	<00f101cd014d$f4cf2c60$de6d8520$@att.net>	<CAM5aL2fG18Xv-4TUKKps5H0uhT2zUpHK619XHZ4hzktiQMCxqA@mail.gmail.com>	<CAOJFdbLqtbyV4xx6z06jCv0_THTYtLOVRH0P4yrdmCxZSL0OXg@mail.gmail.com>	<1331694594.19109.YahooMailNeo@web164506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>	<001e01cd0199$f1731e90$d4595bb0$@att.net>	<4F606D7F.5080909@aleph.se>
	<D35AD130-CE21-43E7-942F-FBB6B02D3F76@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <008f01cd01f0$d5dad680$81908380$@att.net>

 

>.On 14 Mar 2012, at 10:05, Anders Sandberg wrote:

 

>.Getting proteins from insects is likely a smart move

 

 

In general, devouring any warm blooded beast is an energy loser.  The
warm-and-furries need to metabolize so many plants or other beasts just to
create a little meat.  Insects on the other hand, are cold blooded, they
grow quickly and energy-efficiently, they can directly metabolize so many
raw plant fibers, they are robust, pre-adapted for widely varying
environments, we don't really need to concern ourselves much about their
suffering as we do with closer cousins on the evolutionary family tree.  So
many advantages!  But I can imagine there is a good chance we will not
devour them directly, as we do with a plate of fried shrimp.  I have a hard
time imagining a plate of fried beetles will be commonly seen in my natural
lifetime.  

 

We need some kind of processing, which will turn the wretched bugs into
something that I can imagine will be more like a nutritious substance with a
texture somewhere between a hotdog and a cracker, some kind of homogeneous
mass which can be fed to children at a young age, so that they think of it
as food, long before their squick instincts begin.  Many of us whose tastes
in food are long since set, but who think early and often about beast
welfare will brutally overpower those instincts, and devour the substance
anyway, even if we don't really like it.  I will, early and often.

 

spike

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From spike66 at att.net  Wed Mar 14 15:12:48 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 08:12:48 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Atlantic article on human reengineering with very strong
	reactions
In-Reply-To: <4F607724.5000802@aleph.se>
References: <CAJX-7wVcrpNWs_yNp5q5TWh7e7t8eyZWisMhEt7OQ6zMH8naDQ@mail.gmail.com>	<4F5F294B.1080205@aleph.se>	<CAPoR7a6Bv52-4DYdw4qXGJ1iOsZ9Z+eE9QmvoxB40JYcbDDPKw@mail.gmail.com>	<1331712577.9755.YahooMailNeo@web164505.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<4F607724.5000802@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <00a901cd01f4$eaea6410$c0bf2c30$@att.net>

 

>. On Behalf Of Anders Sandberg
Subject: Re: [ExI] Atlantic article on human reengineering with very strong
reactions

 

On 13/03/2012 12:20, Mike Dougherty wrote: 

>>.I agree that's A plan, but the ONLY one?


>.No, of course not. I think one of the big problems with most climate
discussions is that people have formed very tight camps around certain
plans, and absolutely refuse to countenance mentions of other possibilities.
I suspect that real climate solutions will be messy mixes of approaches.--
Anders Sandberg,

 
 
Any mechanical engineer will recognize that all the low hanging fruit today
is in conservation.  We can easily start with ape haulers because their
performance specifications were developed in an era when oil came gushing
out of the ground under its own pressure.  Our expectation of our ape
haulers to do so much, go so fast and accelerate so hard has caused us to
paint ourselves into a corner, where even our smallest cars are remarkably
heavy.  
 
Recall the specification for the original Volkwagen only needed to peak at
100 kph.  If we can tolerate that one specification today, there are
remarkable weight savings available.  We can build new ape haulers from the
ground-up, as opposed to using standard parts from existing vehicles, which
are too heavy and over-sturdy for vehicles that peak at 100 kph.  Even full
electrics are far more practical if we can tolerate that modest top speed,
although it will be better if we go with series hybrids under those
conditions.
 
spike
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From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Wed Mar 14 15:25:10 2012
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 11:25:10 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Jaw-dropping CWRU Alzheimer's breakthrough?
In-Reply-To: <007c01ccf978$80167950$80436bf0$@att.net>
References: <mailman.466.1330314863.825.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
	<1330346071.48236.YahooMailNeo@web132106.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
	<00f101ccf565$40f7deb0$c2e79c10$@att.net>
	<CAPy8RwbyZWVURXyni9gaT+PcpzqL94u2aJ9nAMzo_GpPs-7q-w@mail.gmail.com>
	<4F51604C.20000@mac.com> <00ca01ccf8f4$aca75d60$05f61820$@att.net>
	<003401ccf951$3bb77dd0$b3267970$@att.net>
	<CAAc1gFjgL9sMrSHvFxfjuGkC9HZhTuDz_f8p266c1YMrWZAHEQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<007c01ccf978$80167950$80436bf0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAAc1gFirKEeQknUWvYjeTbyfCO8-cYNyWutJPSbdUm0z1kmRBg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Mar 3, 2012 at 3:02 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

>
> Of course we would not encourage anyone to devour the stuff, oh dear no,
> that would make it a medication or a dietary supplement, in which case we
> would be so deeply buried in laws it would take a postcard a month to get to
> us. ?This would be for, you know, like, washing your hands and such.
>

### Absolutely no comments on this one, Spike :)

Rafal



From eugen at leitl.org  Wed Mar 14 16:10:18 2012
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 17:10:18 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Atlantic article on human reengineering with very
	strong	reactions
In-Reply-To: <00a901cd01f4$eaea6410$c0bf2c30$@att.net>
References: <CAJX-7wVcrpNWs_yNp5q5TWh7e7t8eyZWisMhEt7OQ6zMH8naDQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<4F5F294B.1080205@aleph.se>
	<CAPoR7a6Bv52-4DYdw4qXGJ1iOsZ9Z+eE9QmvoxB40JYcbDDPKw@mail.gmail.com>
	<1331712577.9755.YahooMailNeo@web164505.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<4F607724.5000802@aleph.se>
	<00a901cd01f4$eaea6410$c0bf2c30$@att.net>
Message-ID: <20120314161018.GV9891@leitl.org>

On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 08:12:48AM -0700, spike wrote:

> Any mechanical engineer will recognize that all the low hanging fruit today
> is in conservation.  We can easily start with ape haulers because their
> performance specifications were developed in an era when oil came gushing
> out of the ground under its own pressure.  Our expectation of our ape
> haulers to do so much, go so fast and accelerate so hard has caused us to
> paint ourselves into a corner, where even our smallest cars are remarkably
> heavy.  

The average european car is about a ton, US is twice that. The problem
is expensive fitness display, more weight for luxuries and also subjective
perception of more safety.
  
> Recall the specification for the original Volkwagen only needed to peak at
> 100 kph.  If we can tolerate that one specification today, there are

There's no problem with 130 km/h cruise if you have a spike cache, as
you can dump a lot of power into electric motors if you allow them to
cool off afterwards. Plus, electric eliminates mass like transmission and
associated loss, as well as recover braking, which reduces battery.
Assuming Envia can deliver, we might get our 10 kEUR EVs yet.

http://www.technologyreview.com/energy/39806/?ref=rss

> remarkable weight savings available.  We can build new ape haulers from the
> ground-up, as opposed to using standard parts from existing vehicles, which
> are too heavy and over-sturdy for vehicles that peak at 100 kph.  Even full

Probably progress in robotics can automate composite lamination. Another
key progress is make wheels smart, put servos in there and use software
instruments, and drive-by-wire.

> electrics are far more practical if we can tolerate that modest top speed,
> although it will be better if we go with series hybrids under those
> conditions.

Something like http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ein-Liter-Auto_von_VW would
be best executed a pure EV, if battery energy density can deliver.
Unfortunately they pushed the weight to 795 kg from intial 290 kg, and
can handle over 200 km/h but at some 70 kEUR it's useless.

They did reduce the carbon monocoque costs down to 5 kEUR starting
from initial 35 kEUR in 2002, and production takes only 1 hour, no
longer requring thermal curing.


From spike66 at att.net  Wed Mar 14 15:59:25 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 08:59:25 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Jaw-dropping CWRU Alzheimer's breakthrough?
In-Reply-To: <CAAc1gFirKEeQknUWvYjeTbyfCO8-cYNyWutJPSbdUm0z1kmRBg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.466.1330314863.825.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>	<1330346071.48236.YahooMailNeo@web132106.mail.ird.yahoo.com>	<00f101ccf565$40f7deb0$c2e79c10$@att.net>	<CAPy8RwbyZWVURXyni9gaT+PcpzqL94u2aJ9nAMzo_GpPs-7q-w@mail.gmail.com>	<4F51604C.20000@mac.com>	<00ca01ccf8f4$aca75d60$05f61820$@att.net>	<003401ccf951$3bb77dd0$b3267970$@att.net>	<CAAc1gFjgL9sMrSHvFxfjuGkC9HZhTuDz_f8p266c1YMrWZAHEQ@mail.gmail.com>	<007c01ccf978$80167950$80436bf0$@att.net>
	<CAAc1gFirKEeQknUWvYjeTbyfCO8-cYNyWutJPSbdUm0z1kmRBg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00c001cd01fb$6eaa8360$4bff8a20$@att.net>



-----Original Message-----
From: Rafal Smigrodzki [mailto:rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com] 
Subject: Re: [ExI] Jaw-dropping CWRU Alzheimer's breakthrough?

On Sat, Mar 3, 2012 at 3:02 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

>
> Of course we would not encourage anyone to devour the stuff, oh dear 
> no, that would make it a medication or a dietary supplement, in which 
> case we would be so deeply buried in laws it would take a postcard a 
> month to get to us.  This would be for, you know, like, washing your hands and such.
>

### Absolutely no comments on this one, Spike :)

Rafal


Ja, I have not been posting everything I have been reading, but I will condense the message.  For the sake of generality, let me put bexarotene in with a class of chemicals I will call curcumins.  You may not be able to find that, but one of the UCLA researchers used that term, and I took it, for that class of diphenols with two unsaturated carbonyl groups.  The turmeric-derived curcuminoids are being studied for their impact on the mechanisms which sweep out beta amyloids in the brain.

Of the curcuminoids, bexarotene is a particularly low blood-brain barrier crosser, which makes it more favorable for a medication in which we do not want to worry about what we are doing to the brain while treating something else.  Most curcuminoids are better crossers, so the focus now is on which of these may have the same beneficial effects that bexarotene apparently has on genetically-induced mouse brains.

>From a strictly theoretical standpoint, bexarotene as an Alzheimer's treatment is looking like probably a bad idea, since it takes so much of the stuff to get just a little into the brain, and it is known to have bad side effects.  But it will likely lead to good ideas, such as using one of the chemical cousins in the curcumin class, which can be given at a far lower dose, extracted cheaply from existing spices long known to be safe, etc.

So the original bexarotene report really stirred the anthill.  Several research facilities flew into high gear, each picking their favorite curcuminoid and studying the hell out of it, with the hope that there is an enormous prize awaiting the first to find the best one.  Keep in mind that we all face huge risk of Alzheimers, and none of the current medications do anything, and that if you or any one of your family gets Alzheimer's, it can ruin the whole family because institutional care is verrry expensive, and home care is very time intensive.  Bexarotene probably isn't the answer, but it may point to an answer.

spike





From sparge at gmail.com  Wed Mar 14 16:10:07 2012
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 12:10:07 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Cheap Source of Protein was Re: Pink Slime
In-Reply-To: <D35AD130-CE21-43E7-942F-FBB6B02D3F76@gmail.com>
References: <1331585379.63556.YahooMailNeo@web164506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<CAPoR7a59hdSdeh=bWmavnqQ2zq32dkYMOu1tgp+q1tkG3UwnRA@mail.gmail.com>
	<00f101cd014d$f4cf2c60$de6d8520$@att.net>
	<CAM5aL2fG18Xv-4TUKKps5H0uhT2zUpHK619XHZ4hzktiQMCxqA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAOJFdbLqtbyV4xx6z06jCv0_THTYtLOVRH0P4yrdmCxZSL0OXg@mail.gmail.com>
	<1331694594.19109.YahooMailNeo@web164506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<001e01cd0199$f1731e90$d4595bb0$@att.net> <4F606D7F.5080909@aleph.se>
	<D35AD130-CE21-43E7-942F-FBB6B02D3F76@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2fDPRzC=iddBreba9j=J_xMRwfBkBqOFb2tWa+4WkTXPg@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 6:27 AM, Kryonica <kryonica at gmail.com> wrote:

> Yuck!
>
> On 14 Mar 2012, at 10:05, Anders Sandberg wrote:
>
> Getting proteins from insects is likely a smart move
>
> Yeah, insects are gross, unlike yummy fatty liver from a force-fed goose
or duck.

-Dave
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From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Wed Mar 14 14:54:22 2012
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 07:54:22 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Alternate to shrinking people
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB7sLZRRHVeUJ6QMFv5hU_FFty3_a=S7waoHw-STczcoYw@mail.gmail.com>

Abstract

Space Transportation in an Era of SBSP

Space based solar power can be used to power transport into space at
remarkably low cost.  Two GW of laser energy beamed down from GEO can
support a traffic flow of 500,000 tons per year at a cost well under
$100/kg.  The front-end cost is high, at $10 per watt, $20 B for 2 GW,
and the cost to lift the first seed laser (500 MW) would be even more,
$25 B at the Falcon Heavy estimated rate.  The investment in
propulsion lasers would pay off in a few years lifting power satellite
parts to GEO.  Diverting only a few percent of power satellite
construction into additional propulsion lasers leads to a traffic flow
in the millions of tons and a rate of power satellite construction
exceeding one TW per year.  Large as the front-end cost is, it makes
sense both in terms of economic return and as a way to reduce military
expenditures, i.e., propulsion lasers on this scale reduce or
eliminate the perceived need to fight wars with emerging nuclear
powers.  Such a program solves energy and carbon problems in addition
to providing energy security for all countries.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^

My presentation to the Alternative Energy NOW conference (full of
military people and the head of strategic planning at ExxonMobil) is
here:

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0Bzm7IoVgps00ZWw0eng4TmRSWkdNWFhpZFk2QzNQUQ/edit

A couple of days later NASA released a 698 page study on beamed energy
propulsion,

http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20120002761_2012003334.pdf

Beamed energy propulsion is going main stream.

With enough cheap energy, recycling everything becomes fairly easy.

We could even make fresh water from sea water and pump it inland a
thousand miles for crops.

Keith


From kryonica at gmail.com  Wed Mar 14 16:29:52 2012
From: kryonica at gmail.com (Kryonica)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 16:29:52 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Cheap Source of Protein was Re: Pink Slime
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2fDPRzC=iddBreba9j=J_xMRwfBkBqOFb2tWa+4WkTXPg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1331585379.63556.YahooMailNeo@web164506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<CAPoR7a59hdSdeh=bWmavnqQ2zq32dkYMOu1tgp+q1tkG3UwnRA@mail.gmail.com>
	<00f101cd014d$f4cf2c60$de6d8520$@att.net>
	<CAM5aL2fG18Xv-4TUKKps5H0uhT2zUpHK619XHZ4hzktiQMCxqA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAOJFdbLqtbyV4xx6z06jCv0_THTYtLOVRH0P4yrdmCxZSL0OXg@mail.gmail.com>
	<1331694594.19109.YahooMailNeo@web164506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<001e01cd0199$f1731e90$d4595bb0$@att.net>
	<4F606D7F.5080909@aleph.se>
	<D35AD130-CE21-43E7-942F-FBB6B02D3F76@gmail.com>
	<CAM5aL2fDPRzC=iddBreba9j=J_xMRwfBkBqOFb2tWa+4WkTXPg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <43C3B1F1-EA89-4ED4-ACC1-D94F54FA1F2B@gmail.com>

You are absolutely right Dave: force-fed geese and duck taste heavenly, as do snails and other French delicacies.  True it is cruel but then nature has never been much on the moral side and has made force-fed geese a lot tastier than non-sentient lentils.
On 14 Mar 2012, at 16:10, Dave Sill wrote:

> On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 6:27 AM, Kryonica <kryonica at gmail.com> wrote:
> Yuck!
> 
> On 14 Mar 2012, at 10:05, Anders Sandberg wrote:
> 
>> Getting proteins from insects is likely a smart move
> 
> Yeah, insects are gross, unlike yummy fatty liver from a force-fed goose or duck.
> 
> -Dave
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

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From eugen at leitl.org  Wed Mar 14 16:44:38 2012
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 17:44:38 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Cheap Source of Protein was Re: Pink Slime
In-Reply-To: <43C3B1F1-EA89-4ED4-ACC1-D94F54FA1F2B@gmail.com>
References: <CAPoR7a59hdSdeh=bWmavnqQ2zq32dkYMOu1tgp+q1tkG3UwnRA@mail.gmail.com>
	<00f101cd014d$f4cf2c60$de6d8520$@att.net>
	<CAM5aL2fG18Xv-4TUKKps5H0uhT2zUpHK619XHZ4hzktiQMCxqA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAOJFdbLqtbyV4xx6z06jCv0_THTYtLOVRH0P4yrdmCxZSL0OXg@mail.gmail.com>
	<1331694594.19109.YahooMailNeo@web164506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<001e01cd0199$f1731e90$d4595bb0$@att.net>
	<4F606D7F.5080909@aleph.se>
	<D35AD130-CE21-43E7-942F-FBB6B02D3F76@gmail.com>
	<CAM5aL2fDPRzC=iddBreba9j=J_xMRwfBkBqOFb2tWa+4WkTXPg@mail.gmail.com>
	<43C3B1F1-EA89-4ED4-ACC1-D94F54FA1F2B@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120314164438.GA9891@leitl.org>

On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 04:29:52PM +0000, Kryonica wrote:
> You are absolutely right Dave: force-fed geese and duck taste heavenly, as do snails and other French delicacies.  True it is cruel but then nature has never been much on the moral side and has made force-fed geese a lot tastier than non-sentient lentils.

Nothing against foie gras, but don't hate on lentilles vertes du Puy.



From kryonica at gmail.com  Wed Mar 14 16:52:24 2012
From: kryonica at gmail.com (Kryonica)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 16:52:24 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Cheap Source of Protein was Re: Pink Slime
In-Reply-To: <20120314164438.GA9891@leitl.org>
References: <CAPoR7a59hdSdeh=bWmavnqQ2zq32dkYMOu1tgp+q1tkG3UwnRA@mail.gmail.com>
	<00f101cd014d$f4cf2c60$de6d8520$@att.net>
	<CAM5aL2fG18Xv-4TUKKps5H0uhT2zUpHK619XHZ4hzktiQMCxqA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAOJFdbLqtbyV4xx6z06jCv0_THTYtLOVRH0P4yrdmCxZSL0OXg@mail.gmail.com>
	<1331694594.19109.YahooMailNeo@web164506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<001e01cd0199$f1731e90$d4595bb0$@att.net>
	<4F606D7F.5080909@aleph.se>
	<D35AD130-CE21-43E7-942F-FBB6B02D3F76@gmail.com>
	<CAM5aL2fDPRzC=iddBreba9j=J_xMRwfBkBqOFb2tWa+4WkTXPg@mail.gmail.com>
	<43C3B1F1-EA89-4ED4-ACC1-D94F54FA1F2B@gmail.com>
	<20120314164438.GA9891@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <EBAB26AA-592F-453A-BD44-9B019073A9B7@gmail.com>

Absolutely true.  And with salty meat they taste their best.  Ah those French!  
On 14 Mar 2012, at 16:44, Eugen Leitl wrote:

> On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 04:29:52PM +0000, Kryonica wrote:
>> You are absolutely right Dave: force-fed geese and duck taste heavenly, as do snails and other French delicacies.  True it is cruel but then nature has never been much on the moral side and has made force-fed geese a lot tastier than non-sentient lentils.
> 
> Nothing against foie gras, but don't hate on lentilles vertes du Puy.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat




From atymes at gmail.com  Wed Mar 14 18:40:30 2012
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 11:40:30 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Alternate to shrinking people
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB7sLZRRHVeUJ6QMFv5hU_FFty3_a=S7waoHw-STczcoYw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB7sLZRRHVeUJ6QMFv5hU_FFty3_a=S7waoHw-STczcoYw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNTBwyx9cs297qmaO5R11+wfQP_RZgAPxy5x1AgOBd_mZQ@mail.gmail.com>

Reading through the study...

Page 15, table 2.2.  Restated on page 18, table 2.3.
DRM 1-A and 1-C are 40 kg payloads; 1-B is 80 kg.

Even ignoring the launch vehicle costs, the recurring
per-launch ground operations costs come to $666,666.67,
$916,666.67, and $791,666.67 respectively.  Per kg, that's
about $17K, $11K, and $20K, respectively.

That is way more than $100/kg - and again, that's ignoring
the launch vehicle costs, though those are on the order
of$1K/kg (and thus need to be addressed to get under
$100/kg).

What kinds of cost savings are you anticipating, that the
NASA study does not reflect?  Granted, simply not using
the traditional overengineer-because-cost-is-no-object
approach could be a huge part of that.

On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 7:54 AM, Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> wrote:
> Abstract
>
> Space Transportation in an Era of SBSP
>
> Space based solar power can be used to power transport into space at
> remarkably low cost. ?Two GW of laser energy beamed down from GEO can
> support a traffic flow of 500,000 tons per year at a cost well under
> $100/kg. ?The front-end cost is high, at $10 per watt, $20 B for 2 GW,
> and the cost to lift the first seed laser (500 MW) would be even more,
> $25 B at the Falcon Heavy estimated rate. ?The investment in
> propulsion lasers would pay off in a few years lifting power satellite
> parts to GEO. ?Diverting only a few percent of power satellite
> construction into additional propulsion lasers leads to a traffic flow
> in the millions of tons and a rate of power satellite construction
> exceeding one TW per year. ?Large as the front-end cost is, it makes
> sense both in terms of economic return and as a way to reduce military
> expenditures, i.e., propulsion lasers on this scale reduce or
> eliminate the perceived need to fight wars with emerging nuclear
> powers. ?Such a program solves energy and carbon problems in addition
> to providing energy security for all countries.
>
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> My presentation to the Alternative Energy NOW conference (full of
> military people and the head of strategic planning at ExxonMobil) is
> here:
>
> https://docs.google.com/file/d/0Bzm7IoVgps00ZWw0eng4TmRSWkdNWFhpZFk2QzNQUQ/edit
>
> A couple of days later NASA released a 698 page study on beamed energy
> propulsion,
>
> http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20120002761_2012003334.pdf
>
> Beamed energy propulsion is going main stream.
>
> With enough cheap energy, recycling everything becomes fairly easy.
>
> We could even make fresh water from sea water and pump it inland a
> thousand miles for crops.
>
> Keith
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat



From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Wed Mar 14 19:07:14 2012
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 15:07:14 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Eliminate people to reduce 'warming' and 'save Earth?"
In-Reply-To: <CACMJz981fh+z2iqFeqP4M5LHKP3VB6KVnC=iqPpqyb3G56N2mw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEUzo3KL3k0A0BqoOMgt=RAyJ-Q_biiC9uwOkhVFRtXHC5gVkA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CACMJz981fh+z2iqFeqP4M5LHKP3VB6KVnC=iqPpqyb3G56N2mw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAAc1gFi_iq7YMj9O-u1EK8StvYVU7GKRwr4aEVZibUQXfUWHjA@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 11:17 AM, *Nym* <nymphomation at gmail.com> wrote:

>
> 'Support policies that limit human numbers' does not usually mean
> anything more coercive than educating women and allowing everyone
> access to birth control technology.

### Birth-controlling feminists = Shakers without the furniture?

The future belongs to those who show up.

Rafal


From eugen at leitl.org  Wed Mar 14 19:26:59 2012
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 20:26:59 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Eliminate people to reduce 'warming' and 'save Earth?"
In-Reply-To: <CAAc1gFi_iq7YMj9O-u1EK8StvYVU7GKRwr4aEVZibUQXfUWHjA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEUzo3KL3k0A0BqoOMgt=RAyJ-Q_biiC9uwOkhVFRtXHC5gVkA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CACMJz981fh+z2iqFeqP4M5LHKP3VB6KVnC=iqPpqyb3G56N2mw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAAc1gFi_iq7YMj9O-u1EK8StvYVU7GKRwr4aEVZibUQXfUWHjA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120314192659.GE9891@leitl.org>

On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 03:07:14PM -0400, Rafal Smigrodzki wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 11:17 AM, *Nym* <nymphomation at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> >
> > 'Support policies that limit human numbers' does not usually mean
> > anything more coercive than educating women and allowing everyone
> > access to birth control technology.
> 
> ### Birth-controlling feminists = Shakers without the furniture?
> 
> The future belongs to those who show up.

http://pukeko.net.nz/blog/2012/03/the-fourth-turning-will-not-be-progressive/


From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 14 19:36:24 2012
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 12:36:24 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Eliminate people to reduce 'warming' and 'save Earth?"
In-Reply-To: <CAPoR7a6UfYd=e09XAWpK9qRFnaRVAfxNywjCS5P9Li5HK9AXAQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEUzo3KL3k0A0BqoOMgt=RAyJ-Q_biiC9uwOkhVFRtXHC5gVkA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPoR7a6UfYd=e09XAWpK9qRFnaRVAfxNywjCS5P9Li5HK9AXAQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1331753784.76014.YahooMailNeo@web164506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

>________________________________
>From: Stefano Vaj <stefano.vaj at gmail.com>
>To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> 
>Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 7:48 AM
>Subject: Re: [ExI] Eliminate people to reduce 'warming' and 'save Earth?"
>
>
>2012/3/13 Kevin G Haskell <kgh1kgh2 at gmail.com>
>
>Do we need to not just stop, but reduce human population in order to stop the "warming of the Earth in order to save it?"
>>
>If we were also to eliminate animal and vegetal populations altogether, Mother Earth would be indeniably spared a lot of pointless and erosive chemical processes... :-)

Ha! But then you still leave the inestimable species(?) of microbes of both archaea and eubacteria that are capable of eating iron. Microbes with the foresight to be able to eat the end products of stellar fusion not to mention literally eat Gaea's guts. And we humans are supposed to feel guilty about crowding out big mammals that try to eat us??The Red Queen?rules the roost and if the the bloody bitch gave a shit about grizzly bears, then she would have given the bears the bomb first.
?
For what its worth, a male grizzly bear will gladly eat another grizzly's cubs so mother?grizzlies need to be extra defensive when they got cubs. Not that I am hating on grizzly bears or anything. I am just saying that overly-zealous defenders of Mother Earth?should not expect any personal gestures of appreciation from grizzly bears?for all their hard work on?the bears'?behalf, should they ever encounter any.?Unless the tree-hugger's intent was simply to give the grizzlies a free lunch as well.
?
And if?a great rock should fall, it would fall upon us all. And without us humans, grizzly bears and giraffes have zero chance of surviving a KT boundary event?level impact. By simple virtue of us being potentially able to deflect such a rock, we humans?have greater moral value than grizzly bears, simply because we *could* save them and anything larger than a cat.
?
Stuart LaForge

"The state that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards, and its fighting by fools." -Thucydides.



From clementlawyer at gmail.com  Wed Mar 14 18:13:15 2012
From: clementlawyer at gmail.com (James Clement)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 14:13:15 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Coalition Wants Moratorium on 'Extreme' Synthetic Bio
	Businesses
Message-ID: <CA+LBAbQjHYukERWGHeghBBAyJ+_gG-bQz_KBeD5g+Xum5z0w7Q@mail.gmail.com>

Arggg!

Coalition Wants Moratorium on 'Extreme' Synthetic Bio Businesses
March 13, 2012

   - Type size:-<http://www.genomeweb.com/coalition-wants-moratorium-extreme-synthetic-bio-businesses>
   +<http://www.genomeweb.com/coalition-wants-moratorium-extreme-synthetic-bio-businesses>
   - Email <http://www.genomeweb.com/forward?path=node%2F1042311>
   - Printer-friendly version <http://www.genomeweb.com/print/1042311>
   - RSS Feed <http://feeds.genomeweb.com/genomeweb/genomeweb-daily-news>
   - Subscribe to GenomeWeb Daily
News<http://www.genomeweb.com/gw/subscribe/14?destination=node/1042311>

 By Matt Jones

NEW YORK (GenomeWeb News) ? An international advocacy coalition today
called for a moratorium on the development of new synthetic organisms for
commercial use while new international regulations for governing the
synthetic biology sector are created to protect the environment and people
from unknown perils.

The coalition said today that synbio represents "extreme genetic
engineering." It said there currently is little or no governance over
synthetic organisms, and private companies cannot be trusted to
self-regulate and protect people and the environment from risk and harm.

"We are calling for a global moratorium on the release and commercial use
of synthetic organisms until we have established a public interest research
agenda, examined alternatives, developed the proper regulations, and put
into place rigorous biosafety measures," Carolyn Raffensperger, executive
director of the Science and Environmental Health Network, said in a
statement today.

"Self-regulation of the synthetic biology industry simply won't work,"
added Andy Kimbrell, executive director of the International Center for
Technology Assessment. "Current laws and regulations around biotechnology
are outdated and inadequate to deal with the novel risks posed by synthetic
biology technologies and their products."

Friends of the Earth and over 100 international groups focused on
environmental, bioscience, food safety, human and consumer rights issues,
and religion, said in areport published
today<http://www.genomeweb.com/www.foe.org/principles-for-synthetic-biology>
that
although the synbio market had a value of more than $1.6 billion in 2011
and could hit $10.8 billion by 2016, there has been "little or no
governance of the industry or assessment of the novel risks posed by
synthetic organisms."

In a conference call today unveiling the report, Jaydee Hanson, policy
director at the International Center for Technology Assessment, said that
the first creation of a synthetic
genome<http://www.genomeweb.com/jcvi-team-creates-functional-microbe-controlled-synthetic-genome>
and
its implantation into a microbe by the J. Craig Venter Institute in 2010
"should have been a wake-up call for governments around the world, but
little new oversight resulted."

"The ability to synthesize DNA and create synthetic organisms and products
is far outpacing our understanding of how these novel products work in the
real world. Even engineering simple organisms could have major ecological
and health effects," Hanson said.

In its report, "The Principles for the Oversight of Synthetic Biology," the
consortium calls for governments to take specific steps to account for a
range of possible effects caused by synthetic organisms.

It calls for a moratorium on the release and commercial use of synthetic
organisms, cells, or genomes, until a government research agenda has been
established to study the public's interest. The moratorium also would hold
while alternative approaches are considered and risk assessments are made,
and international oversight and security mechanisms are developed.

The group also wants mandatory regulations that would treat synthetic
biology as a unique activity and would be stronger than current the
regulations on pathogens, containment, drugs, and worker protections.

The report seeks a number of public health and worker safety regulations
for preventing human exposures to synthetic organisms that have not been
proven safe. These would include protocols to ensure that the organisms are
securely contained, that the public would be informed of the nature of the
work being conducted in the community, and that workers and the public be
informed of risks associated with synthetic biology and organisms. Another
requirement suggested by the group is that methods be available for
tracking, disabling, or destroying synbio strains, if necessary.

Requirements also need to be put in place to protect against the potential
dangers that synthetic organisms might pose if they are released into the
environment, intentionally or unintentionally, the consortium said. "The
capacity of each synthetic organism to survive in the environment and
reproduce must be known before any such organisms leave the laboratory. ?
Once released into the environment, these organisms may be impossible to
recall or eliminate," the group said its report.

To that end, the consortium wants governments to require that premarket
environmental impact assessments are conducted for each distinct synthetic
organism and each product derived from them.

Among other proposals, the coalition also said it wants a prohibition on
the use of synthetic biology to change the human genetic makeup, human
genome, epigenome, or microbiome, because any such genetic alterations "are
too risky and fraught with ethical concerns."

Gregory Kaebnick, a scholar at the Hastings Center, a non-partisan
bioethics organization, told *GenomeWeb Daily News* today that the
coalition is "calling attention to an important set of issues."

However, Kaebnick said that the coalition has focused its recommendations
too much on "halting commercialization," and the report appears to have an
"anti-corporate" message. He also said that they failed to consider
potential dangers of research projects, such as the recent development of a
dangerous new strain of H5N1.

Kaebnick also took issue with the coalition's central contentions
concerning regulation.

"I don't think it's true that synthetic biology is developing with little
oversight or regulation. There is a fair amount of talk at the federal
level about it. ? The question is: What are the gaps in the existing
regulations? How do we deal with a technology that is changing and evolving
very rapidly? How do we set up oversight mechanisms?"

The Obama Administration responded to JCVI's synthetic microbe by
immediately commissioning a report, released in 2010, which included a
number of recommendations<http://www.genomeweb.com/white-house-council-receives-synthetic-biology-report>
for
addressing safety, security, and ethical questions involved in synbio.

That report, from the Presidential Commission for the Study of Bioethical
Issues, advised a policy based in prudent vigilance that involves ways to
use government and private sector resources to oversee synthetic bio
research and business without stifling innovation.

As *GWDN* reported last month, the administration has been pursuing
implementation of some of those recommendations, although about half of
them have spurred little or no
actions<http://www.genomeweb.com/report-card-governments-synthetic-bio-initiatives-shows-mixed-results>
or
have been disregarded.

Kaebnick suggested that the coalition's focus on corporations and its
heightened concern about synthetic biology business, as opposed to genetic
engineering research, may have colored its report and "gotten in the way of
the message."

"People freak out a little bit when they see the words 'synthetic biology
or 'genetic engineering,' particularly when you tack the word 'extreme' in
front of it," Kaebnick said.


James Clement, J.D., LL.M.
CEO, Androcyte LLC
U.S. Cell:  407-929-2965
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From spike66 at att.net  Wed Mar 14 19:40:27 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 12:40:27 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Atlantic article on human reengineering with
	very	strong	reactions
In-Reply-To: <20120314161018.GV9891@leitl.org>
References: <CAJX-7wVcrpNWs_yNp5q5TWh7e7t8eyZWisMhEt7OQ6zMH8naDQ@mail.gmail.com>	<4F5F294B.1080205@aleph.se>	<CAPoR7a6Bv52-4DYdw4qXGJ1iOsZ9Z+eE9QmvoxB40JYcbDDPKw@mail.gmail.com>	<1331712577.9755.YahooMailNeo@web164505.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>	<4F607724.5000802@aleph.se>	<00a901cd01f4$eaea6410$c0bf2c30$@att.net>
	<20120314161018.GV9891@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <004c01cd021a$4f2bfae0$ed83f0a0$@att.net>



-----Original Message-----
>... On Behalf Of Eugen Leitl
...
  
>>... Recall the specification for the original Volkwagen only needed to 
> peak at 100 kph.  If we can tolerate that one specification today, there
are

>...There's no problem with 130 km/h cruise if you have a spike cache...

Ja, top speed is expensive from an engineering point of view.  The power
requirement scales as the cube of the top speed capability, and the weight
of the engine and drive train scales approximately linearly with the peak
power.  We can imagine high end cars with that 130 kph but not long term
cruise.  I am envisioning an occasional use second car which isn't
particularly capable and doesn't need to be anything but low cost.

>... we might get our 10 kEUR EVs yet...

I think so, possibly even below 10KEUR if we do it right.

>...Probably progress in robotics can automate composite lamination...They
did reduce the carbon monocoque costs down to 5 kEUR starting from initial
35 kEUR in 2002, and production takes only 1 hour, no longer requring
thermal curing...

Ja, but carbon fiber is probably overkill for what I have in mind.  If we
keep that peak speed down, a good option is injection molded polycarbonate,
such as you have in a motorcycle fairing: it's cheap, light, durable, easily
replaceable, easily modifiable, easily repairable, etc, many advantages.
But it will not hold up to 200 kph windspeeds in the form I have in mind.
If we go to typical modern IC vehicle speeds, our cost and weight are back
up to where they are now for all the same reasons.

spike




From kryonica at gmail.com  Wed Mar 14 19:59:57 2012
From: kryonica at gmail.com (Kryonica)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 19:59:57 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Coalition Wants Moratorium on 'Extreme' Synthetic Bio
	Businesses
In-Reply-To: <CA+LBAbQjHYukERWGHeghBBAyJ+_gG-bQz_KBeD5g+Xum5z0w7Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+LBAbQjHYukERWGHeghBBAyJ+_gG-bQz_KBeD5g+Xum5z0w7Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4F1EEDEF-850C-4541-99F5-E0226E251B37@gmail.com>

After GMOs...  After all it was only to be expected and this kind of thing will occur with every single new technology.  The only way to handle it is to create another newer technology to distract luddite attention away from their current target.  After all they no longer talk so much about GMOs and IVFs because they're distracted by ... Synthetic bio.
On 14 Mar 2012, at 18:13, James Clement wrote:

> Arggg!
> 
> Coalition Wants Moratorium on 'Extreme' Synthetic Bio Businesses
> March 13, 2012
> Type size:
> -
> +
> Email
> Printer-friendly version
> RSS Feed
> Subscribe to GenomeWeb Daily News
> By Matt Jones
> 
> NEW YORK (GenomeWeb News) ? An international advocacy coalition today called for a moratorium on the development of new synthetic organisms for commercial use while new international regulations for governing the synthetic biology sector are created to protect the environment and people from unknown perils.
> 
> The coalition said today that synbio represents "extreme genetic engineering." It said there currently is little or no governance over synthetic organisms, and private companies cannot be trusted to self-regulate and protect people and the environment from risk and harm.
> 
> "We are calling for a global moratorium on the release and commercial use of synthetic organisms until we have established a public interest research agenda, examined alternatives, developed the proper regulations, and put into place rigorous biosafety measures," Carolyn Raffensperger, executive director of the Science and Environmental Health Network, said in a statement today.
> 
> "Self-regulation of the synthetic biology industry simply won't work," added Andy Kimbrell, executive director of the International Center for Technology Assessment. "Current laws and regulations around biotechnology are outdated and inadequate to deal with the novel risks posed by synthetic biology technologies and their products."
> 
> Friends of the Earth and over 100 international groups focused on environmental, bioscience, food safety, human and consumer rights issues, and religion, said in areport published today that although the synbio market had a value of more than $1.6 billion in 2011 and could hit $10.8 billion by 2016, there has been "little or no governance of the industry or assessment of the novel risks posed by synthetic organisms."
> 
> In a conference call today unveiling the report, Jaydee Hanson, policy director at the International Center for Technology Assessment, said that the first creation of a synthetic genome and its implantation into a microbe by the J. Craig Venter Institute in 2010 "should have been a wake-up call for governments around the world, but little new oversight resulted."
> 
> "The ability to synthesize DNA and create synthetic organisms and products is far outpacing our understanding of how these novel products work in the real world. Even engineering simple organisms could have major ecological and health effects," Hanson said.
> 
> In its report, "The Principles for the Oversight of Synthetic Biology," the consortium calls for governments to take specific steps to account for a range of possible effects caused by synthetic organisms.
> 
> It calls for a moratorium on the release and commercial use of synthetic organisms, cells, or genomes, until a government research agenda has been established to study the public's interest. The moratorium also would hold while alternative approaches are considered and risk assessments are made, and international oversight and security mechanisms are developed.
> 
> The group also wants mandatory regulations that would treat synthetic biology as a unique activity and would be stronger than current the regulations on pathogens, containment, drugs, and worker protections.
> 
> The report seeks a number of public health and worker safety regulations for preventing human exposures to synthetic organisms that have not been proven safe. These would include protocols to ensure that the organisms are securely contained, that the public would be informed of the nature of the work being conducted in the community, and that workers and the public be informed of risks associated with synthetic biology and organisms. Another requirement suggested by the group is that methods be available for tracking, disabling, or destroying synbio strains, if necessary.
> 
> Requirements also need to be put in place to protect against the potential dangers that synthetic organisms might pose if they are released into the environment, intentionally or unintentionally, the consortium said. "The capacity of each synthetic organism to survive in the environment and reproduce must be known before any such organisms leave the laboratory. ? Once released into the environment, these organisms may be impossible to recall or eliminate," the group said its report.
> 
> To that end, the consortium wants governments to require that premarket environmental impact assessments are conducted for each distinct synthetic organism and each product derived from them.
> 
> Among other proposals, the coalition also said it wants a prohibition on the use of synthetic biology to change the human genetic makeup, human genome, epigenome, or microbiome, because any such genetic alterations "are too risky and fraught with ethical concerns."
> 
> Gregory Kaebnick, a scholar at the Hastings Center, a non-partisan bioethics organization, told GenomeWeb Daily News today that the coalition is "calling attention to an important set of issues."
> 
> However, Kaebnick said that the coalition has focused its recommendations too much on "halting commercialization," and the report appears to have an "anti-corporate" message. He also said that they failed to consider potential dangers of research projects, such as the recent development of a dangerous new strain of H5N1.
> 
> Kaebnick also took issue with the coalition's central contentions concerning regulation.
> 
> "I don't think it's true that synthetic biology is developing with little oversight or regulation. There is a fair amount of talk at the federal level about it. ? The question is: What are the gaps in the existing regulations? How do we deal with a technology that is changing and evolving very rapidly? How do we set up oversight mechanisms?"
> 
> The Obama Administration responded to JCVI's synthetic microbe by immediately commissioning a report, released in 2010, which included a number of recommendations for addressing safety, security, and ethical questions involved in synbio.
> 
> That report, from the Presidential Commission for the Study of Bioethical Issues, advised a policy based in prudent vigilance that involves ways to use government and private sector resources to oversee synthetic bio research and business without stifling innovation.
> 
> As GWDN reported last month, the administration has been pursuing implementation of some of those recommendations, although about half of them have spurred little or no actions or have been disregarded.
> 
> Kaebnick suggested that the coalition's focus on corporations and its heightened concern about synthetic biology business, as opposed to genetic engineering research, may have colored its report and "gotten in the way of the message."
> 
> "People freak out a little bit when they see the words 'synthetic biology or 'genetic engineering,' particularly when you tack the word 'extreme' in front of it," Kaebnick said.
> 
> 
> 
> James Clement, J.D., LL.M.
> CEO, Androcyte LLC
> U.S. Cell:  407-929-2965
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

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From spike66 at att.net  Wed Mar 14 19:48:31 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 12:48:31 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Cheap Source of Protein was Re: Pink Slime
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2fDPRzC=iddBreba9j=J_xMRwfBkBqOFb2tWa+4WkTXPg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1331585379.63556.YahooMailNeo@web164506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>	<CAPoR7a59hdSdeh=bWmavnqQ2zq32dkYMOu1tgp+q1tkG3UwnRA@mail.gmail.com>	<00f101cd014d$f4cf2c60$de6d8520$@att.net>	<CAM5aL2fG18Xv-4TUKKps5H0uhT2zUpHK619XHZ4hzktiQMCxqA@mail.gmail.com>	<CAOJFdbLqtbyV4xx6z06jCv0_THTYtLOVRH0P4yrdmCxZSL0OXg@mail.gmail.com>	<1331694594.19109.YahooMailNeo@web164506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>	<001e01cd0199$f1731e90$d4595bb0$@att.net>
	<4F606D7F.5080909@aleph.se>	<D35AD130-CE21-43E7-942F-FBB6B02D3F76@gmail.com>
	<CAM5aL2fDPRzC=iddBreba9j=J_xMRwfBkBqOFb2tWa+4WkTXPg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <005c01cd021b$6fdadf80$4f909e80$@att.net>

On Behalf Of Dave Sill
Subject: Re: [ExI] Cheap Source of Protein was Re: Pink Slime

 

>>.On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 6:27 AM, Kryonica <kryonica at gmail.com> wrote:

 

 

Yuck!

 

On 14 Mar 2012, at 10:05, Anders Sandberg wrote:





>>>.Getting proteins from insects is likely a smart move

>.Yeah, insects are gross, unlike yummy fatty liver from a force-fed goose
or duck.

 

-Dave

 

 

Has anyone here actually eaten a bug?  I have, but it wasn't voluntarily,
and I didn't get to taste it.  I didn't even realize my mouth was open as I
was riding my motorcycle.  It did hurt when it drilled me in the back of the
throat.  There was nothing to do but gulp and drink.

 

For all we know, insects are as tasty as crunchy little shrimp.

 

spike

 

PS Kryonica, the above shows why we encourage bottom posting in replies.
Top posting messes up chronological order.  s

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From nymphomation at gmail.com  Wed Mar 14 19:36:41 2012
From: nymphomation at gmail.com (*Nym*)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 19:36:41 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Eliminate people to reduce 'warming' and 'save Earth?"
In-Reply-To: <20120314192659.GE9891@leitl.org>
References: <CAEUzo3KL3k0A0BqoOMgt=RAyJ-Q_biiC9uwOkhVFRtXHC5gVkA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CACMJz981fh+z2iqFeqP4M5LHKP3VB6KVnC=iqPpqyb3G56N2mw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAAc1gFi_iq7YMj9O-u1EK8StvYVU7GKRwr4aEVZibUQXfUWHjA@mail.gmail.com>
	<20120314192659.GE9891@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <CACMJz9-+EJchd1dqWaYx4Pa3RFdzsXQk-NW3-yxRROzZDq_sFQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 14/03/2012, Eugen Leitl <eugen at leitl.org> wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 03:07:14PM -0400, Rafal Smigrodzki wrote:
>> On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 11:17 AM, *Nym* <nymphomation at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> > 'Support policies that limit human numbers' does not usually mean
>> > anything more coercive than educating women and allowing everyone
>> > access to birth control technology.
>>
>> ### Birth-controlling feminists = Shakers without the furniture?

Sorry, you think feminism is genetic?
o_O

>> The future belongs to those who show up.

Poor Chinese and Indians then!

(o:

Heavy splashings,
Thee Nymphomation

'If you cannot afford an executioner, a duty executioner
will be appointed to you free of charge by the court'


From kryonica at gmail.com  Wed Mar 14 20:04:52 2012
From: kryonica at gmail.com (Kryonica)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 20:04:52 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Cheap Source of Protein was Re: Pink Slime
In-Reply-To: <005c01cd021b$6fdadf80$4f909e80$@att.net>
References: <1331585379.63556.YahooMailNeo@web164506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>	<CAPoR7a59hdSdeh=bWmavnqQ2zq32dkYMOu1tgp+q1tkG3UwnRA@mail.gmail.com>	<00f101cd014d$f4cf2c60$de6d8520$@att.net>	<CAM5aL2fG18Xv-4TUKKps5H0uhT2zUpHK619XHZ4hzktiQMCxqA@mail.gmail.com>	<CAOJFdbLqtbyV4xx6z06jCv0_THTYtLOVRH0P4yrdmCxZSL0OXg@mail.gmail.com>	<1331694594.19109.YahooMailNeo@web164506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>	<001e01cd0199$f1731e90$d4595bb0$@att.net>
	<4F606D7F.5080909@aleph.se>	<D35AD130-CE21-43E7-942F-FBB6B02D3F76@gmail.com>
	<CAM5aL2fDPRzC=iddBreba9j=J_xMRwfBkBqOFb2tWa+4WkTXPg@mail.gmail.com>
	<005c01cd021b$6fdadf80$4f909e80$@att.net>
Message-ID: <C86AEE49-0BF6-4D77-AA42-C19261587A09@gmail.com>


On 14 Mar 2012, at 19:48, spike wrote:

> On Behalf Of Dave Sill
> Subject: Re: [ExI] Cheap Source of Protein was Re: Pink Slime
>  
> >>?On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 6:27 AM, Kryonica <kryonica at gmail.com> wrote:
>  
>  
> Yuck!
>  
> On 14 Mar 2012, at 10:05, Anders Sandberg wrote:
> 
> 
> >>>?Getting proteins from insects is likely a smart move
> >?Yeah, insects are gross, unlike yummy fatty liver from a force-fed goose or duck.
>  
> -Dave
>  
>  
> Has anyone here actually eaten a bug?  I have, but it wasn?t voluntarily, and I didn?t get to taste it.  I didn?t even realize my mouth was open as I was riding my motorcycle.  It did hurt when it drilled me in the back of the throat.  There was nothing to do but gulp and drink.
>  
> For all we know, insects are as tasty as crunchy little shrimp.
>  
> spike
>  
> PS Kryonica, the above shows why we encourage bottom posting in replies.  Top posting messes up chronological order.  s
OK
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

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From sparge at gmail.com  Wed Mar 14 20:11:50 2012
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 16:11:50 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Cheap Source of Protein was Re: Pink Slime
In-Reply-To: <005c01cd021b$6fdadf80$4f909e80$@att.net>
References: <1331585379.63556.YahooMailNeo@web164506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<CAPoR7a59hdSdeh=bWmavnqQ2zq32dkYMOu1tgp+q1tkG3UwnRA@mail.gmail.com>
	<00f101cd014d$f4cf2c60$de6d8520$@att.net>
	<CAM5aL2fG18Xv-4TUKKps5H0uhT2zUpHK619XHZ4hzktiQMCxqA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAOJFdbLqtbyV4xx6z06jCv0_THTYtLOVRH0P4yrdmCxZSL0OXg@mail.gmail.com>
	<1331694594.19109.YahooMailNeo@web164506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<001e01cd0199$f1731e90$d4595bb0$@att.net> <4F606D7F.5080909@aleph.se>
	<D35AD130-CE21-43E7-942F-FBB6B02D3F76@gmail.com>
	<CAM5aL2fDPRzC=iddBreba9j=J_xMRwfBkBqOFb2tWa+4WkTXPg@mail.gmail.com>
	<005c01cd021b$6fdadf80$4f909e80$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2fo6RC=M8GmoMX9AnnA2iXkkQj_05YSnqTF5x8JK9b5CA@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 3:48 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

>
>
> Has anyone here actually eaten a bug?
>

No, not a whole, chew-it-up-and-taste-it bug. But these look pretty good:

http://theevolutionstore.com/store/cricket-snacks-og0300/

Can't go wrong with bacon flavor, IMO.

-Dave
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From sparge at gmail.com  Wed Mar 14 20:21:47 2012
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 16:21:47 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Cheap Source of Protein was Re: Pink Slime
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2fo6RC=M8GmoMX9AnnA2iXkkQj_05YSnqTF5x8JK9b5CA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1331585379.63556.YahooMailNeo@web164506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<CAPoR7a59hdSdeh=bWmavnqQ2zq32dkYMOu1tgp+q1tkG3UwnRA@mail.gmail.com>
	<00f101cd014d$f4cf2c60$de6d8520$@att.net>
	<CAM5aL2fG18Xv-4TUKKps5H0uhT2zUpHK619XHZ4hzktiQMCxqA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAOJFdbLqtbyV4xx6z06jCv0_THTYtLOVRH0P4yrdmCxZSL0OXg@mail.gmail.com>
	<1331694594.19109.YahooMailNeo@web164506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<001e01cd0199$f1731e90$d4595bb0$@att.net> <4F606D7F.5080909@aleph.se>
	<D35AD130-CE21-43E7-942F-FBB6B02D3F76@gmail.com>
	<CAM5aL2fDPRzC=iddBreba9j=J_xMRwfBkBqOFb2tWa+4WkTXPg@mail.gmail.com>
	<005c01cd021b$6fdadf80$4f909e80$@att.net>
	<CAM5aL2fo6RC=M8GmoMX9AnnA2iXkkQj_05YSnqTF5x8JK9b5CA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2dkKVM-L1LgjRxbALfTSPmOyzqV_ztP1StqMojOxVV4ZA@mail.gmail.com>

See also:

  http://edibug.wordpress.com/list-of-edible-insects/

-Dave
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From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 14 20:25:49 2012
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 13:25:49 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Coalition Wants Moratorium on 'Extreme' Synthetic Bio
	Businesses
In-Reply-To: <CA+LBAbQjHYukERWGHeghBBAyJ+_gG-bQz_KBeD5g+Xum5z0w7Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+LBAbQjHYukERWGHeghBBAyJ+_gG-bQz_KBeD5g+Xum5z0w7Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1331756749.88271.YahooMailNeo@web164503.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

>________________________________
>From: James Clement <clementlawyer at gmail.com>
>To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> 
>Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 11:13 AM
>Subject: [ExI] Coalition Wants Moratorium on 'Extreme' Synthetic Bio Businesses
>
>
>Arggg!
>
>
>Coalition Wants Moratorium on 'Extreme' Synthetic Bio Businesses
>March 13, 2012

I can't believe the countless hoards that seem intent on forever prohibiting exactly what I spent 10 years of my life and?over?$100,000?of my money at university learning how to do. I have the knowledge, skills, and desire to?read and write the?scripting language?of life. But instead now, because of people like this, I drive a taxi cab. With all these bioconservative apes in charge, in the US, a biology degree might as well be a degree in?music appreciation. I even tried to start a religion that would allow me to practice my arts under first amendment rights. But it didn't really take off. Maybe I should have gotten a degree in obstructionism. Seems to be a growth industry these days.

Stuart LaForge


"The state that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards, and its fighting by fools." -Thucydides.



From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Wed Mar 14 20:35:44 2012
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 16:35:44 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Eliminate people to reduce 'warming' and 'save Earth?"
In-Reply-To: <CACMJz9-+EJchd1dqWaYx4Pa3RFdzsXQk-NW3-yxRROzZDq_sFQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEUzo3KL3k0A0BqoOMgt=RAyJ-Q_biiC9uwOkhVFRtXHC5gVkA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CACMJz981fh+z2iqFeqP4M5LHKP3VB6KVnC=iqPpqyb3G56N2mw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAAc1gFi_iq7YMj9O-u1EK8StvYVU7GKRwr4aEVZibUQXfUWHjA@mail.gmail.com>
	<20120314192659.GE9891@leitl.org>
	<CACMJz9-+EJchd1dqWaYx4Pa3RFdzsXQk-NW3-yxRROzZDq_sFQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAAc1gFgmjPFq6hbxyzAXSfU1Gy9Fzh5w8PYi1sJaPLeXcg4vJw@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 3:36 PM, *Nym* <nymphomation at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 14/03/2012, Eugen Leitl <eugen at leitl.org> wrote:
>> On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 03:07:14PM -0400, Rafal Smigrodzki wrote:

>>> ### Birth-controlling feminists = Shakers without the furniture?
>
> Sorry, you think feminism is genetic?
> o_O
>
### It is possible that there is a genetic component to the tendency
to espouse feminist views but the mode of transmission (cultural vs.
combined cultural-genetic) is out of context in relation to the
argument I presented. As you may know, the Shaker worldview was
transmitted culturally, and led to its own disappearance, along with
the bodies, minds and genes of its carriers.

>>> The future belongs to those who show up.
>
> Poor Chinese and Indians then!

### ?

Rafal


From atymes at gmail.com  Wed Mar 14 21:51:18 2012
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 14:51:18 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Coalition Wants Moratorium on 'Extreme' Synthetic Bio
	Businesses
In-Reply-To: <CA+LBAbQjHYukERWGHeghBBAyJ+_gG-bQz_KBeD5g+Xum5z0w7Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+LBAbQjHYukERWGHeghBBAyJ+_gG-bQz_KBeD5g+Xum5z0w7Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNTjQYVTO-X4ofgYY4-2TL=svjBC0C4V_AfW-DYDZkGVKQ@mail.gmail.com>

They can want it all they want.  It's nothing to care about unless they
actually get anywhere.  There is enough money being made off of
synthetic bio, that no such moratorium can get passed in most
Western countries.  (Yeah, I know, but it's a silver lining to the
corruption.)

On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 11:13 AM, James Clement <clementlawyer at gmail.com> wrote:
> Arggg!
>
> Coalition Wants Moratorium on 'Extreme' Synthetic Bio Businesses
>
> March 13, 2012
>
> Type size:-+
> Email
> Printer-friendly version
> RSS Feed
> Subscribe to GenomeWeb Daily News
>
> By?Matt Jones
>
> NEW YORK (GenomeWeb News) ? An international advocacy coalition today called
> for a moratorium on the development of new synthetic organisms for
> commercial use while new international regulations for governing the
> synthetic biology sector are created to protect the environment and people
> from unknown perils.
>
> The coalition said today that synbio represents "extreme genetic
> engineering." It said there currently is little or no governance over
> synthetic organisms, and private companies cannot be trusted to
> self-regulate and protect people and the environment from risk and harm.
>
> "We are calling for a global moratorium on the release and commercial use of
> synthetic organisms until we have established a public interest research
> agenda, examined alternatives, developed the proper regulations, and put
> into place rigorous biosafety measures," Carolyn Raffensperger, executive
> director of the Science and Environmental Health Network, said in a
> statement today.
>
> "Self-regulation of the synthetic biology industry simply won't work," added
> Andy Kimbrell, executive director of the International Center for Technology
> Assessment. "Current laws and regulations around biotechnology are outdated
> and inadequate to deal with the novel risks posed by synthetic biology
> technologies and their products."
>
> Friends of the Earth and over 100 international groups focused on
> environmental, bioscience, food safety, human and consumer rights issues,
> and religion, said in areport published today?that although the synbio
> market had a value of more than $1.6 billion in 2011 and could hit $10.8
> billion by 2016, there has been "little or no governance of the industry or
> assessment of the novel risks posed by synthetic organisms."
>
> In a conference call today unveiling the report, Jaydee Hanson, policy
> director at the International Center for Technology Assessment, said that
> the first?creation of a synthetic genome?and its implantation into a microbe
> by the J. Craig Venter Institute in 2010 "should have been a wake-up call
> for governments around the world, but little new oversight resulted."
>
> "The ability to synthesize DNA and create synthetic organisms and products
> is far outpacing our understanding of how these novel products work in the
> real world. Even engineering simple organisms could have major ecological
> and health effects," Hanson said.
>
> In its report, "The Principles for the Oversight of Synthetic Biology," the
> consortium calls for governments to take specific steps to account for a
> range of possible effects caused by synthetic organisms.
>
> It calls for a moratorium on the release and commercial use of synthetic
> organisms, cells, or genomes, until a government research agenda has been
> established to study the public's interest. The moratorium also would hold
> while alternative approaches are considered and risk assessments are made,
> and international oversight and security mechanisms are developed.
>
> The group also wants mandatory regulations that would treat synthetic
> biology as a unique activity and would be stronger than current the
> regulations on pathogens, containment, drugs, and worker protections.
>
> The report seeks a number of public health and worker safety regulations for
> preventing human exposures to synthetic organisms that have not been proven
> safe. These would include protocols to ensure that the organisms are
> securely contained, that the public would be informed of the nature of the
> work being conducted in the community, and that workers and the public be
> informed of risks associated with synthetic biology and organisms. Another
> requirement suggested by the group is that methods be available for
> tracking, disabling, or destroying synbio strains, if necessary.
>
> Requirements also need to be put in place to protect against the potential
> dangers that synthetic organisms might pose if they are released into the
> environment, intentionally or unintentionally, the consortium said. "The
> capacity of each synthetic organism to survive in the environment and
> reproduce must be known before any such organisms leave the laboratory. ?
> Once released into the environment, these organisms may be impossible to
> recall or eliminate," the group said its report.
>
> To that end, the consortium wants governments to require that premarket
> environmental impact assessments are conducted for each distinct synthetic
> organism and each product derived from them.
>
> Among other proposals, the coalition also said it wants a prohibition on the
> use of synthetic biology to change the human genetic makeup, human genome,
> epigenome, or microbiome, because any such genetic alterations "are too
> risky and fraught with ethical concerns."
>
> Gregory Kaebnick, a scholar at the Hastings Center, a non-partisan bioethics
> organization, told?GenomeWeb Daily News?today that the coalition is "calling
> attention to an important set of issues."
>
> However, Kaebnick said that the coalition has focused its recommendations
> too much on "halting commercialization," and the report appears to have an
> "anti-corporate" message. He also said that they failed to consider
> potential dangers of research projects, such as the recent development of a
> dangerous new strain of H5N1.
>
> Kaebnick also took issue with the coalition's central contentions concerning
> regulation.
>
> "I don't think it's true that synthetic biology is developing with little
> oversight or regulation. There is a fair amount of talk at the federal level
> about it. ? The question is: What are the gaps in the existing regulations?
> How do we deal with a technology that is changing and evolving very rapidly?
> How do we set up oversight mechanisms?"
>
> The Obama Administration responded to JCVI's synthetic microbe by
> immediately commissioning a report, released in 2010, which?included a
> number of recommendations?for addressing safety, security, and ethical
> questions involved in synbio.
>
> That report, from the Presidential Commission for the Study of Bioethical
> Issues, advised a policy based in prudent vigilance that involves ways to
> use government and private sector resources to oversee synthetic bio
> research and business without stifling innovation.
>
> As?GWDN?reported last month, the administration has been pursuing
> implementation of some of those recommendations, although about half of them
> have?spurred little or no actions?or have been disregarded.
>
> Kaebnick suggested that the coalition's focus on corporations and its
> heightened concern about synthetic biology business, as opposed to genetic
> engineering research, may have colored its report and "gotten in the way of
> the message."
>
> "People freak out a little bit when they see the words 'synthetic biology or
> 'genetic engineering,' particularly when you tack the word 'extreme' in
> front of it," Kaebnick said.
>
>
>
> James Clement, J.D., LL.M.
> CEO, Androcyte LLC
> U.S. Cell: ?407-929-2965
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>



From anders at aleph.se  Wed Mar 14 23:05:35 2012
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 23:05:35 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Cheap Source of Protein was Re: Pink Slime
In-Reply-To: <005c01cd021b$6fdadf80$4f909e80$@att.net>
References: <1331585379.63556.YahooMailNeo@web164506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>	<CAPoR7a59hdSdeh=bWmavnqQ2zq32dkYMOu1tgp+q1tkG3UwnRA@mail.gmail.com>	<00f101cd014d$f4cf2c60$de6d8520$@att.net>	<CAM5aL2fG18Xv-4TUKKps5H0uhT2zUpHK619XHZ4hzktiQMCxqA@mail.gmail.com>	<CAOJFdbLqtbyV4xx6z06jCv0_THTYtLOVRH0P4yrdmCxZSL0OXg@mail.gmail.com>	<1331694594.19109.YahooMailNeo@web164506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>	<001e01cd0199$f1731e90$d4595bb0$@att.net>
	<4F606D7F.5080909@aleph.se>	<D35AD130-CE21-43E7-942F-FBB6B02D3F76@gmail.com>
	<CAM5aL2fDPRzC=iddBreba9j=J_xMRwfBkBqOFb2tWa+4WkTXPg@mail.gmail.com>
	<005c01cd021b$6fdadf80$4f909e80$@att.net>
Message-ID: <4F61243F.70105@aleph.se>

On 14/03/2012 19:48, spike wrote:
> Has anyone here actually eaten a bug?  I have, but it wasn't 
> voluntarily, and I didn't get to taste it.  I didn't even realize my 
> mouth was open as I was riding my motorcycle.  It did hurt when it 
> drilled me in the back of the throat.  There was nothing to do but 
> gulp and drink.
>
> For all we know, insects are as tasty as crunchy little shrimp.
>
>

Yup. I have tried the cricket tacos at Cafe Oaxaca in San Francisco, and 
they were very good. crunchy and enjoyable.

I have also tried dried Mopane worm (not a hit) and dried mealworm 
(crunchy, maybe good with a beer). But I prefer the crickets.

-- 
Anders Sandberg,
Future of Humanity Institute
Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University

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From spike66 at att.net  Wed Mar 14 23:52:31 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 16:52:31 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Cheap Source of Protein was Re: Pink Slime
In-Reply-To: <4F61243F.70105@aleph.se>
References: <1331585379.63556.YahooMailNeo@web164506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>	<CAPoR7a59hdSdeh=bWmavnqQ2zq32dkYMOu1tgp+q1tkG3UwnRA@mail.gmail.com>	<00f101cd014d$f4cf2c60$de6d8520$@att.net>	<CAM5aL2fG18Xv-4TUKKps5H0uhT2zUpHK619XHZ4hzktiQMCxqA@mail.gmail.com>	<CAOJFdbLqtbyV4xx6z06jCv0_THTYtLOVRH0P4yrdmCxZSL0OXg@mail.gmail.com>	<1331694594.19109.YahooMailNeo@web164506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>	<001e01cd0199$f1731e90$d4595bb0$@att.net>	<4F606D7F.5080909@aleph.se>	<D35AD130-CE21-43E7-942F-FBB6B02D3F76@gmail.com>	<CAM5aL2fDPRzC=iddBreba9j=J_xMRwfBkBqOFb2tWa+4WkTXPg@mail.gmail.com>	<005c01cd021b$6fdadf80$4f909e80$@att.net>
	<4F61243F.70105@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <013101cd023d$85adc170$91094450$@att.net>

 

 

From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Anders Sandberg
Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 4:06 PM
To: ExI chat list
Subject: Re: [ExI] Cheap Source of Protein was Re: Pink Slime

 

On 14/03/2012 19:48, spike wrote: 

>>.Has anyone here actually eaten a bug?  . For all we know, insects are as
tasty as crunchy little shrimp.

 


>.Yup. I have tried the cricket tacos at Cafe Oaxaca in San Francisco, and
they were very good. dried mealworm (crunchy, maybe good with a beer). .--
Anders Sandberg

 
 
Anders' offhanded comment contains a critically important notion.  If you
are going to retrain your mind to eat things you are currently unaccustomed
to devouring, there are two important steps to follow.  First, go light
rations for a couple days before, or very low fat for two or three days, so
that everything looks good.  Then snack lightly on crackers and drink some
beer.  It must be beer, no other alcohol, beer.  It does open one's mind to
new foods.  I don't know why that is, but you will understand if you have
ever been out with buddies on a fishing day, eating things and drinking
beer.  After a day of that, one will swallow anything that comes out of the
water.  That's how I became turned on to raw oysters.  It works.
 
spike
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From nymphomation at gmail.com  Thu Mar 15 02:44:15 2012
From: nymphomation at gmail.com (*Nym*)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 02:44:15 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Eliminate people to reduce 'warming' and 'save Earth?"
In-Reply-To: <CAAc1gFgmjPFq6hbxyzAXSfU1Gy9Fzh5w8PYi1sJaPLeXcg4vJw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEUzo3KL3k0A0BqoOMgt=RAyJ-Q_biiC9uwOkhVFRtXHC5gVkA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CACMJz981fh+z2iqFeqP4M5LHKP3VB6KVnC=iqPpqyb3G56N2mw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAAc1gFi_iq7YMj9O-u1EK8StvYVU7GKRwr4aEVZibUQXfUWHjA@mail.gmail.com>
	<20120314192659.GE9891@leitl.org>
	<CACMJz9-+EJchd1dqWaYx4Pa3RFdzsXQk-NW3-yxRROzZDq_sFQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAAc1gFgmjPFq6hbxyzAXSfU1Gy9Fzh5w8PYi1sJaPLeXcg4vJw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACMJz98yoH4MDa-KXtzmuoUpsFZpTnRAE8qV77Ox4N=LTnx+XA@mail.gmail.com>

On 14/03/2012, Rafal Smigrodzki <rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 3:36 PM, *Nym* <nymphomation at gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 14/03/2012, Eugen Leitl <eugen at leitl.org> wrote:
>>> On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 03:07:14PM -0400, Rafal Smigrodzki wrote:
>
>>>> ### Birth-controlling feminists = Shakers without the furniture?
>>
>> Sorry, you think feminism is genetic?
>> o_O
>>
> ### It is possible that there is a genetic component to the tendency
> to espouse feminist views but the mode of transmission (cultural vs.
> combined cultural-genetic) is out of context in relation to the
> argument I presented. As you may know, the Shaker worldview was
> transmitted culturally, and led to its own disappearance, along with
> the bodies, minds and genes of its carriers.

I suspect feminism has a much lower drop-out rate than the Shakers,
along with a far higher take up rate (Shakers topped out at around
6,000 members after about a century.) Faster communications, the wider
spread of basic education in the future and the resulting 'network
effect' will likely more than make up for the use of effective
contraception.

Also, it wasn't just the Shakers, the bodies and minds of everyone
around at the time of their heyday have disappeared too.

Heavy splashings,
Thee Nymphomation

'If you cannot afford an executioner, a duty executioner
will be appointed to you free of charge by the court'


From spike66 at att.net  Thu Mar 15 04:09:17 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 21:09:17 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Jaw-dropping CWRU Alzheimer's breakthrough?
References: <mailman.466.1330314863.825.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>	<1330346071.48236.YahooMailNeo@web132106.mail.ird.yahoo.com>	<00f101ccf565$40f7deb0$c2e79c10$@att.net>	<CAPy8RwbyZWVURXyni9gaT+PcpzqL94u2aJ9nAMzo_GpPs-7q-w@mail.gmail.com>	<4F51604C.20000@mac.com>	<00ca01ccf8f4$aca75d60$05f61820$@att.net>	<003401ccf951$3bb77dd0$b3267970$@att.net>	<CAAc1gFjgL9sMrSHvFxfjuGkC9HZhTuDz_f8p266c1YMrWZAHEQ@mail.gmail.com>	<007c01ccf978$80167950$80436bf0$@att.net>
	<CAAc1gFirKEeQknUWvYjeTbyfCO8-cYNyWutJPSbdUm0z1kmRBg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000501cd0261$665dd0c0$33197240$@att.net>


...

On Sat, Mar 3, 2012 at 3:02 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

> >...  This would be for, you know, like, washing your hands and such.

>...Ja, I have not been posting everything I have been reading, but I will condense the message...spike


Rafal might wish to comment on my encouraging observations while studying bexarotene.  This bex adventure is a really good example of model based science in medicine.  Most of my exposure to the field as a patient and as a friend of doctors convinced me their science is mostly if not almost entirely observational: take this stuff and this happens, take that and the other thing happens.  They map the symptoms with the medications and side effects and try to make their best guess at what to prescribe, not really knowing why they see what they see, or having only a sketchy idea.

The bexarotene development has demonstrated at least some of these researchers, and Rafal's comments, demonstrate they have at least some theoretical model for why this stuff appears to do what it does, and why, and how to take the next step.  For instance, we have a notion that bex somehow stimulates the mechanism which cleans up beta amyloids, but it isn't a good barrier crosser, but other similar medications are good crossers.  We have a notion for how to create lipophilic substances that may help a particular medication find its way into the brain without altering whatever it is that made it effective in stimulating beta amyloid reducing mechanisms.  

Medicine is becoming a science with models which have at least some predictive capability.  The progress seems slow, but if they demonstrate a breakthrough from predictive theoretical models, then this is a huge advance in medical science, perhaps the biggest since penicillin.  Half of us here will eventually get Alzheimer's symptoms if we live long enough.  If these researchers find the answer, they have saved untold suffering and waste of a lifetime of learning.

spike




From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Thu Mar 15 04:27:43 2012
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 21:27:43 -0700
Subject: [ExI] A science fiction anthology from MIT's Technology Review
	magazine
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy0A03ZzSbXq+TWk-bT4rH0LUcwHGy+-VnJBHLX6EDPJfg@mail.gmail.com>

This should prove good reading...


http://www.technologyreview.com/sf/?cmp=hse


John  : )
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From eugen at leitl.org  Thu Mar 15 08:51:41 2012
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 09:51:41 +0100
Subject: [ExI] [Beowulf] oil immersion cooled blades
Message-ID: <20120315085141.GP9891@leitl.org>

----- Forwarded message from "Lux, Jim (337C)" <james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov> -----

From: "Lux, Jim (337C)" <james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov>
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 20:12:47 -0700
To: Mark Hahn <hahn at mcmaster.ca>,
	"beowulf at beowulf.org" <Beowulf at beowulf.org>
Subject: Re: [Beowulf] oil immersion cooled blades
user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.12.0.110505

Immersing motherboards in oil has been done for years (probably even
mentioned on this list).  There's countless hacker versions using various
and sundry off the shelf mobos and power supplies etc in various and
sundry containers (ice chests, aquariums, purpose built acrylic boxes)
using a variety of coolants.



The vast majority of these have no "thermal engineering".. They're more
"we tried it and it seemed to work".  There's not a lot of content at the
hardcore computer website. It could be ok or it might not.  They're not
real clear on how they actually get the heat out of the enclosures. The
MSDS for their coolant says that it's basically synthetic mineral oil with
a antioxidant (you can look up the CAS number to get more info). I'd be a
bit nervous about the fire hazard aspects of a machine room full of the
stuff.

So here's my experience using oil as an insulator/coolant.
1) it wicks up insulated wire, particularly stranded.  Put the mobo in oil
and the power supply outside, and pretty soon your power supply will be
full of oil.
2) oil leaks.  There is *nothing* that is oil insulated that doesn't have
a fine film of oil on its surface eventually, unless it is in a
hermetically sealed can with welded/crimped seals.
3) oil is a mess when you need to fix something



The Cray-2 used Fluorinert(tm) FC-74 as the coolant, which is very nice to
work with, although expensive.
It doesn't wet things very well, so when you pull something out of the
bath, it doesn't bring much fluid with it. The Cray used it as a heat
transfer medium to water coolant.  I think they had a way to drain it into
a tank quickly for servicing.


 It can be used for ebullient (boiling) cooling by picking the right vapor
pressure/BP grade (the Cray didn't use this). Ebullient cooling is quite
efficient at moving the heat away because it's a phase change, and the
bubbling causes good circulation, but it does require careful design so
you don't get film boiling/Leidenfrost effect (the phenomenon that
protects your feet when walking across burning coals barefoot)



On 3/14/12 3:02 PM, "Mark Hahn" <hahn at mcmaster.ca> wrote:

>> Server blades in oil
>
>sounds like some brutalist take on molecular gastronomy!
>
>> Hardcore Computer LSS 200
>
>http://www.hardcorecomputer.com/Resources/assets/Documents/LSS-specs.pdf
>
>seems kind of uninspiring, in hardware specs.  1366 socket, not 2011,
>optional fast network, gpu, etc, builtin ipmi.  8x in 5U, so not really
>a density play.
>
>I guess I'm a bit skeptical about the utility of this approach -
>would be nice if they had some technical literature.  something about
>thermal resistance.  define how the oil bath dumps the heat (water
>hookups in the back?)  comparison to modern heatpipe-based solutions, etc.
>_______________________________________________
>Beowulf mailing list, Beowulf at beowulf.org sponsored by Penguin Computing
>To change your subscription (digest mode or unsubscribe) visit
>http://www.beowulf.org/mailman/listinfo/beowulf

_______________________________________________
Beowulf mailing list, Beowulf at beowulf.org sponsored by Penguin Computing
To change your subscription (digest mode or unsubscribe) visit http://www.beowulf.org/mailman/listinfo/beowulf

----- End forwarded message -----
-- 
Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE


From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 15 11:24:19 2012
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 04:24:19 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Coalition Wants Moratorium on 'Extreme' Synthetic Bio
	Businesses
References: <CA+LBAbQjHYukERWGHeghBBAyJ+_gG-bQz_KBeD5g+Xum5z0w7Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNTjQYVTO-X4ofgYY4-2TL=svjBC0C4V_AfW-DYDZkGVKQ@mail.gmail.com> 
Message-ID: <1331810659.15090.YahooMailNeo@web164504.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

?
----- Original Message -----
> From: Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com>
> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Cc: 
> Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 2:51 PM
> Subject: Re: [ExI] Coalition Wants Moratorium on 'Extreme' Synthetic Bio Businesses
> 
>T hey can want it all they want.? It's nothing to care about unless they
> actually get anywhere.? There is enough money being made off of
> synthetic bio, that no such moratorium can get passed in most
> Western countries.? (Yeah, I know, but it's a silver lining to the
> corruption.)

And?it is a severe economic drag?on several industries ranging from agriculture to biotech and medicine. Probably billions of dollars in opportunity costs.
?
?Yet this mentality of "if it wasn't evolved by random chance, then that?is playing God, and the thing will be an abomination that will run amok!" is always spun as *caution* when really all it really is? is cowardly ignorance. It is perpetuated by the media with formulaic science-fiction and horror plot lines that haven't deviated significantly from "Frankenstein" since Shelley first wrote it.

Fear of the unknown?can become a habit of?cowardice born of the ignorance.

Whenever I hear a Bioconservative harp on about the dangers of biology, I hear a child advising me "Never?play with Daddy's remote control or he will spank you!"

Yet this same guy's wife might have a chihuahua?descended from wolves and I can see the shame in the chihuahua's eyes because it knows?what his master doesn't. And that is that at heart it is a wolf?but it knows it is so weak it would be eaten if?it managed to escape its captivity and actually tried to run with the pack. Have you seen seen wolves? Never a hint of shame in a wolf's eyes. Submission occasionally yes, but never shame.
,
Then I think all the ways people routinely play God in day to day circumstance: Whenever an animal breeder changes a breed,?(s)he is playing God.?Whenever a soldier or a cop pulls a trigger, (s)he is playing God. Whenever a judge swings a gavel, (s)he is playing God. So why aren't there ethicists getting underfoot?and tripping up?these professions??
?
Sometimes I want to say to these people: I am a biologist?furthermore I am?middle-aged and not getting any younger.?So give me the damn remote control, kid,?before I use my scary biology powers to spank you my damn self!

Yet I refrain,?knowing those bastards would say, "See I told you it was too dangerous to allow!"?

?
Stuart LaForge


"The state that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards, and its fighting by fools." -Thucydides.




From cetico.iconoclasta at gmail.com  Thu Mar 15 12:45:38 2012
From: cetico.iconoclasta at gmail.com (Henrique Moraes Machado)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 09:45:38 -0300
Subject: [ExI] RES:  [Beowulf] oil immersion cooled blades
In-Reply-To: <20120315085141.GP9891@leitl.org>
References: <20120315085141.GP9891@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <008f01cd02a9$8a134660$9e39d320$@gmail.com>

> So here's my experience using oil as an insulator/coolant.
> 1) it wicks up insulated wire, particularly stranded.  Put the mobo in oil
and
> the power supply outside, and pretty soon your power supply will be full
of
> oil.
> 2) oil leaks.  There is *nothing* that is oil insulated that doesn't have
a fine
> film of oil on its surface eventually, unless it is in a hermetically
sealed can
> with welded/crimped seals.
> 3) oil is a mess when you need to fix something

What about some coarse powder? Is there anything that could be used for
this?



From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Thu Mar 15 14:09:10 2012
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 10:09:10 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Why humans are dying out
Message-ID: <CAAc1gFhC3QF13gpJFEOutA0_eLeLA6CNSBcPvuQeDirHphhKmA@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 10:44 PM, *Nym* <nymphomation at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 14/03/2012, Rafal Smigrodzki <rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>> ### It is possible that there is a genetic component to the tendency
>> to espouse feminist views but the mode of transmission (cultural vs.
>> combined cultural-genetic) is out of context in relation to the
>> argument I presented. As you may know, the Shaker worldview was
>> transmitted culturally, and led to its own disappearance, along with
>> the bodies, minds and genes of its carriers.
>
> I suspect feminism has a much lower drop-out rate than the Shakers,
> along with a far higher take up rate (Shakers topped out at around
> 6,000 members after about a century.) Faster communications, the wider
> spread of basic education in the future and the resulting 'network
> effect' will likely more than make up for the use of effective
> contraception.

### In larger and faster networks, fads and the madness of crowds
reach greater sizes faster but they also sometimes disappear just as
precipitously. Furthermore, since there are likely to be alleles that
confer resistance to persistent severe aversion to procreation (e.g.
feminist beliefs that outlast the window of fertility and interfere
with procreation, Skopcy religious fervor, various monastic movements,
etc.), for the most part within a few generations such beliefs become
very uncommon due to biological, evolutionary processes (changes in
allele frequency) rather than due to strictly memetic processes.

My theory about the modern trend to diminishing procreation, also
known as the demographic transition, is that modern levels of
affluence interact with some psychological adaptations active
predominantly in women. In the ancestral environment females had a
choice of reproductive strategies whose success depended on their
position in the social hierarchy - women in lower levels had to mate
and reproduce early due to the precariousness of their very existence,
while women in higher strata could afford to hold out to mate with
males highest in the hierarchy, the ones who had access to multiple
females. In this situation, bearing a son of a high status male
conferred unusual fitness rewards, since this son would be able to
sire a much larger number of grandchildren than the son produced in
the union with a low status male. This tendency to search for high
status males is also called hypergamy. Modern affluence, with good
nutrition and low levels of interpersonal stress, seems to simulate
the experience of a high-status ancestral woman - and strongly
triggers the hypergamous strategy, searching for high status males,
and deferring procreation. In some individuals, a super-hypergamy may
be found - a feeling that no man is good enough which seems to be the
defining feature of radical feminism.

In this view, feminism is not the cause of non-procreation but rather
its correlate. Contraceptives add to the story but they are not
essential, since the demographic transition started long before modern
contraceptives became available. Liberal outlook is also irrelevant,
since the demographic transition has wreaked havoc in many traditional
societies, including strongly patriarchal ones (Japan, China), and is
seen in Muslim theocracies (Iran, many Arab countries). Being rich and
reducing levels of interpersonal violence seems rather paradoxically
sufficient to trigger procreation aversion in most humans.

But in evolution there is constant churn of existing alleles, and in
response to changed conditions the frequency of previously
fitness-conferring but now fitness-reducing alleles is likely to
change quickly. This is especially true of alleles that produce nearly
zero fitness - they may get weeded out in a single generation (in the
case of fully penetrant autosomal dominant traits), or in just 5 - 6
generations in the case of multigenic adaptations.

I doubt that evolution will achieve the elimination of
anti-procreative hypergamy before the singularity wipes the
existential slate clean but most likely we will see some indications
of evolutionary processes at work. Even now there is an increasing
number of high status US women who choose to have 4 - 6 children - I
personally know a few physicians who went this way.

Presumably, the memetic correlates of low procreation will also go the
way of the Shakers.

>
> Also, it wasn't just the Shakers, the bodies and minds of everyone
> around at the time of their heyday have disappeared too.

### The beliefs and genes that animated procreating humans were much
less likely to disappear. True, their bodies and most memories died
but their essence lives on, while the Shakers are merely remembered,
usually in the context of furniture shopping.

Rafal


From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Thu Mar 15 14:11:46 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 15:11:46 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Cheap Source of Protein was Re: Pink Slime
In-Reply-To: <4F61243F.70105@aleph.se>
References: <1331585379.63556.YahooMailNeo@web164506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
 <CAPoR7a59hdSdeh=bWmavnqQ2zq32dkYMOu1tgp+q1tkG3UwnRA@mail.gmail.com>
 <00f101cd014d$f4cf2c60$de6d8520$@att.net>
 <CAM5aL2fG18Xv-4TUKKps5H0uhT2zUpHK619XHZ4hzktiQMCxqA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOJFdbLqtbyV4xx6z06jCv0_THTYtLOVRH0P4yrdmCxZSL0OXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <1331694594.19109.YahooMailNeo@web164506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
 <001e01cd0199$f1731e90$d4595bb0$@att.net>
 <4F606D7F.5080909@aleph.se>
 <D35AD130-CE21-43E7-942F-FBB6B02D3F76@gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2fDPRzC=iddBreba9j=J_xMRwfBkBqOFb2tWa+4WkTXPg@mail.gmail.com>
 <005c01cd021b$6fdadf80$4f909e80$@att.net> <4F61243F.70105@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a64XzyN983OJwW1W7Q0CKPKMKe_AJnqdKX40cG-iq5f_Q@mail.gmail.com>

2012/3/15 Anders Sandberg <anders at aleph.se>

> Yup. I have tried the cricket tacos at Cafe Oaxaca in San Francisco, and
> they were very good. crunchy and enjoyable.
>
> I have also tried dried Mopane worm (not a hit) and dried mealworm
> (crunchy, maybe good with a beer). But I prefer the crickets.
>

I suspect however that most insects are not really edible unless processed
one way or another - which is strictly true for many other everyday foods,
for that matter.

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Thu Mar 15 14:18:50 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 15:18:50 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Eliminate people to reduce 'warming' and 'save Earth?"
In-Reply-To: <1331753784.76014.YahooMailNeo@web164506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <CAEUzo3KL3k0A0BqoOMgt=RAyJ-Q_biiC9uwOkhVFRtXHC5gVkA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a6UfYd=e09XAWpK9qRFnaRVAfxNywjCS5P9Li5HK9AXAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <1331753784.76014.YahooMailNeo@web164506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a4HK1H1X4nfJW4uqPhK6-86ny6TYnqw7eEiii4qre1w2g@mail.gmail.com>

On 14 March 2012 20:36, The Avantguardian <avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com>wrote:

> Ha! But then you still leave the inestimable species(?) of microbes of
> both archaea and eubacteria that are capable of eating iron. Microbes with
> the foresight to be able to eat the end products of stellar fusion not to
> mention literally eat Gaea's guts.


In Gaian terms, a reasonable measure to protect our planet could be that of
stripping it of an atmosphere and of liquid water. Yes, this makes for
additional radiations and meteorite craters, but our moon show how
"cleaner" a planetary body is without this pollution-prone components...


> And we humans are supposed to feel guilty about crowding out big mammals
> that try to eat us? The Red Queen rules the roost and if the the bloody
> bitch gave a shit about grizzly bears, then she would have given the bears
> the bomb first.
>

Should we feel "guilty" about grizzly possible extinction? Probably not.

But I simply enjoy the idea of having enough resources to waste that I can
afford keeping grizzlies around, for the sake of it, on the same basis that
I would happily resurrect dinosaurs, Jurassic Park-style, even though no
plausible sense of guilt is involved in their extinction.

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From agrimes at speakeasy.net  Thu Mar 15 12:26:38 2012
From: agrimes at speakeasy.net (Alan Grimes)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 08:26:38 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Oil immersion rig.
Message-ID: <4F61DFFE.6060401@speakeasy.net>

This was mentioned on slashdot a few years ago:

http://www.hardcorecomputer.com/ProductConfigurator_productReactorX.aspx


-- 
E T F
N H E
D E D

Powers are not rights.



From spike66 at att.net  Thu Mar 15 15:37:05 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 08:37:05 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Cheap Source of Protein was Re: Pink Slime
In-Reply-To: <CAPoR7a64XzyN983OJwW1W7Q0CKPKMKe_AJnqdKX40cG-iq5f_Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1331585379.63556.YahooMailNeo@web164506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
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Message-ID: <007101cd02c1$7a731b00$6f595100$@att.net>

 

 

>. On Behalf Of Stefano Vaj
Subject: Re: [ExI] Cheap Source of Protein was Re: Pink Slime

 

2012/3/15 Anders Sandberg <anders at aleph.se>

>>.Yup. I have tried the cricket tacos at Cafe Oaxaca in San Francisco, and
they were very good. crunchy and enjoyable. 

>.I suspect however that most insects are not really edible unless processed
one way or another - which is strictly true for many other everyday foods,
for that matter.  -- Stefano Vaj

 

 

Ja.  For most moderns, if you gave us a basket of wheat and a sack of
potatoes, we would be near starvation before we figured out what to do with
them.  We haven't so much increased our knowledge as we have specialized.
We know how to drive cars, set up tax sheltered annuities, write fast
compact code, but we would have a damn hard time even surviving without a
steady electric supply in the wall.  Of course, the old knowledge isn't
exactly lost but rather merely externalized.  We don't need to know
everything: there is a good website out there somewhere that explains
exactly how to process a basket of wheat and a sack of potatoes.  But of
course we need a steady supply of power to use that, and a functional
internet.  I find it remarkable that in the past fifty years, humanity has
become dependent on electricity for survival, and in the past twenty years,
dependent on the internet for reasonable levels of functional adequacy, to
access the pool of accumulated knowledge.

 

Nearly all bugs are edible: our stomachs know what to do.  But to make them
palatable requires a great deal of skill, some of which is yet to be
discovered, skills which will eventually be distributed via the internet.

 

spike

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From jrd1415 at gmail.com  Thu Mar 15 16:42:46 2012
From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 09:42:46 -0700
Subject: [ExI] mitochondrial DNA repair
Message-ID: <CAHUTwkPkM0gQz2DzMsbvL-3wTXUjJb1uzJP1jxA05U6KY-f4Lg@mail.gmail.com>

Fiends,

The notion of DNA repair as a life extension/health maintenance
strategy has been around for a while. In that context, I've worried
about the challenge of mitochondrial repair -- DNA and structural --
("rejuvenation", loosely speaking).  How, or if, it could be done.

I imagined it to be hard, and worried, forgetting my boy Ray's truism.
 Well, I'm pleasantly surprised to announce that it doesn't appear to
be "hard" any longer.

Now I'm pondering just how large a part -- fundamental? --
mitochondrial decline may play in the larger gradual decline we refer
to as aging, and consequently, just how large an impact on extending
lifespan this new discovery may eventually enable.

UCLA scientists find way to repair mutations in human mitochondria
http://newsroom.ucla.edu/portal/ucla/ucla-scientist-find-way-to-repair-230241.aspx

What a fabulously amazing time we live in.

Best, Jeff Davis

         "Everything's hard till you know how to do it."
                                    Ray Charles


From spike66 at att.net  Thu Mar 15 17:23:06 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 10:23:06 -0700
Subject: [ExI] mitochondrial DNA repair
In-Reply-To: <CAHUTwkPkM0gQz2DzMsbvL-3wTXUjJb1uzJP1jxA05U6KY-f4Lg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHUTwkPkM0gQz2DzMsbvL-3wTXUjJb1uzJP1jxA05U6KY-f4Lg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <001801cd02d0$492d6fa0$db884ee0$@att.net>

>... The notion of DNA repair as a life extension/health maintenance
strategy has been around for a while. In that context, I've worried about
the challenge of mitochondrial repair -- DNA and structural --
("rejuvenation", loosely speaking).  How, or if, it could be done... Jeff
Davis  


No pal, this is bad.  If we figure out how to repair DNA in mitochondria,
then they are rejuvenated and become as effective in creating ATP as they
were in our misspent youth.  The result is you have all these old geezers
running around with the energy level we had when we were young, and what do
you suppose they would do with all that energy?  Yup, you know we would.
Geezers everywhere, banging each other's brains out, like we did back in
college, and of course they would compete with the teenagers, but with the
advantage of a lifetime of experience in how to talk to and how to treat
young women, as well as a ton of money from a lifetime of savings.  They
would of course out-compete the teenage boys, and what a confused world this
would become, with all that going on.

Lets do it.

Quickly.

spike









From sparge at gmail.com  Thu Mar 15 17:52:02 2012
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 13:52:02 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Cheap Source of Protein was Re: Pink Slime
In-Reply-To: <007101cd02c1$7a731b00$6f595100$@att.net>
References: <1331585379.63556.YahooMailNeo@web164506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
 <CAPoR7a59hdSdeh=bWmavnqQ2zq32dkYMOu1tgp+q1tkG3UwnRA@mail.gmail.com>
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 <007101cd02c1$7a731b00$6f595100$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2fUYYm7iL2uoCvoTg5PZywf8h9jnk3sxZhvbNWExddF2Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Mar 15, 2012 at 11:37 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

> Nearly all bugs are edible: our stomachs know what to do.  But to make
> them palatable requires a great deal of skill, some of which is yet to be
> discovered, skills which will eventually be distributed via the internet.*
> ***
>
>
I think you're overstating the case. A lot of insects require minimal
preparation, e.g., light roasting or a little seasoning. And the skills and
knowledge are already readily available on the 'net. Google entomophagy.
And check out http://girlmeetsbug.com/ . Also, the practice is already
common in many parts of the world. It's just not common in the "first
world".

Obviously some people will have a hard time getting over their lifelong
insect-revulsion conditioning, but I don't think it's necessary to get
everyone on board.

-Dave
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From atymes at gmail.com  Thu Mar 15 18:58:43 2012
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 11:58:43 -0700
Subject: [ExI] mitochondrial DNA repair
In-Reply-To: <001801cd02d0$492d6fa0$db884ee0$@att.net>
References: <CAHUTwkPkM0gQz2DzMsbvL-3wTXUjJb1uzJP1jxA05U6KY-f4Lg@mail.gmail.com>
 <001801cd02d0$492d6fa0$db884ee0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNT0JcU7vzP4sxhCNwTC_W6rtfDEArZfKt=nUirJxkdpxw@mail.gmail.com>

It is amusing to read this, while another thread bemoans the
lack of reproduction by liberal tribes (who would presumably
be more apt to take advantage of "playing God" techs).

Though I have to wonder if this makes human cloning more
viable.  If so, then does that perhaps ease the path for
automated child-raising technologies (more children that
did not come out of a womb, and thus could be "nobody's"
from birth)?  And in that case, does that mean a financially
successful culture can more readily convert its capital
into population, by simply building more of this capacity,
without requiring individual members to sponsor each
child?  (Not that any couple that wants to have and raise
a child in the traditional way would be prohibited; just that
there would be this alternative - presumably government
or charity funded, just like most schools are today.)

On Thu, Mar 15, 2012 at 10:23 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> No pal, this is bad. ?If we figure out how to repair DNA in mitochondria,
> then they are rejuvenated and become as effective in creating ATP as they
> were in our misspent youth. ?The result is you have all these old geezers
> running around with the energy level we had when we were young, and what do
> you suppose they would do with all that energy? ?Yup, you know we would.
> Geezers everywhere, banging each other's brains out, like we did back in
> college, and of course they would compete with the teenagers, but with the
> advantage of a lifetime of experience in how to talk to and how to treat
> young women, as well as a ton of money from a lifetime of savings. ?They
> would of course out-compete the teenage boys, and what a confused world this
> would become, with all that going on.
>
> Lets do it.
>
> Quickly.



From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Thu Mar 15 19:32:04 2012
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 15:32:04 -0400
Subject: [ExI] mitochondrial DNA repair
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNT0JcU7vzP4sxhCNwTC_W6rtfDEArZfKt=nUirJxkdpxw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHUTwkPkM0gQz2DzMsbvL-3wTXUjJb1uzJP1jxA05U6KY-f4Lg@mail.gmail.com>
 <001801cd02d0$492d6fa0$db884ee0$@att.net>
 <CALAdGNT0JcU7vzP4sxhCNwTC_W6rtfDEArZfKt=nUirJxkdpxw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAAc1gFgzpQFY20nBeLEzA_U4xj80LgatpcX4v1zro3YGyiufsg@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Mar 15, 2012 at 2:58 PM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:

>
> Though I have to wonder if this makes human cloning more
> viable. ?If so, then does that perhaps ease the path for
> automated child-raising technologies (more children that
> did not come out of a womb, and thus could be "nobody's"
> from birth)? ?And in that case, does that mean a financially
> successful culture can more readily convert its capital
> into population, by simply building more of this capacity,
> without requiring individual members to sponsor each
> child? ?(Not that any couple that wants to have and raise
> a child in the traditional way would be prohibited; just that
> there would be this alternative - presumably government
> or charity funded, just like most schools are today.)

### This could be possible, in a Brave-New-World-ish way - basically,
a top-down model of organic subunit replacement in the social
superoganism, versus the bottom-up method we have now. It's hard to
predict which organisation is likely to be more viable. The top down
model could be capable of very fast, targeted changes aimed at
throwing resources on well-understood and relatively short-term
problems, just like a Manhattan Project, or a communist five year plan
during wartime - fast and powerful but very brittle and inefficient
over longer timespans. On the other hand, the bottom up, multiply
redundant approach of individual replicators using genetic
technologies to maximize the fitness of their offspring, or redesigned
clone copies, could be more effective at dealing with emergent issue,
the unknown unknowns that inevitably spring up over longer timespans,
just as the capitalist market excels at long term unplanned but robust
growth and continuous, reliable progress. And of course, hybrid
systems could exist as well.

Time will tell.

Rafal



From msd001 at gmail.com  Thu Mar 15 19:07:38 2012
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 15:07:38 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Cheap Source of Protein was Re: Pink Slime
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2fUYYm7iL2uoCvoTg5PZywf8h9jnk3sxZhvbNWExddF2Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1331585379.63556.YahooMailNeo@web164506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
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 <005c01cd021b$6fdadf80$4f909e80$@att.net> <4F61243F.70105@aleph.se>
 <CAPoR7a64XzyN983OJwW1W7Q0CKPKMKe_AJnqdKX40cG-iq5f_Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <007101cd02c1$7a731b00$6f595100$@att.net>
 <CAM5aL2fUYYm7iL2uoCvoTg5PZywf8h9jnk3sxZhvbNWExddF2Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOJFdbJRfXb8JCQ=zFXib7o85tSQm9=Je4QsZuaKQ4Prk9=uQw@mail.gmail.com>

2012/3/15 Dave Sill <sparge at gmail.com>:
> Obviously some people will have a hard time getting over their lifelong
> insect-revulsion conditioning, but I don't think it's necessary to get
> everyone on board.

If the general public could get 5 deep-fried McCrunchies and a sauce
to dip 'em in for a dollar, I'm pretty sure we'd be eating
whatever-the-hell-it-was without much concern.  Afterall, a global
megacorp would never do anything that would hurt me, their customer...
right?


From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Thu Mar 15 20:39:05 2012
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 16:39:05 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Pink Slime
In-Reply-To: <25470147-7E2A-4B9F-BA3D-B30BE572F3E3@gmail.com>
References: <1331585379.63556.YahooMailNeo@web164506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
 <CAPoR7a59hdSdeh=bWmavnqQ2zq32dkYMOu1tgp+q1tkG3UwnRA@mail.gmail.com>
 <25470147-7E2A-4B9F-BA3D-B30BE572F3E3@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAAc1gFiO7b7CupXqiN16gWtyGk97JjSdSGRnh6UhR9B6Qh2_xg@mail.gmail.com>

2012/3/13 Kryonica <kryonica at gmail.com>:
> But this morning on BBC news we were once more reminded of the dangers of
> eating red and processed meat...
>
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-17345967

### I am mildly skeptical of the red meat kills claims. It's true that
red meat contains significant amounts of iron which is toxic to
mitochondria. Modern humans bleed less, usually do not have intestinal
parasites that cause iron loss, and eat more meat than many ancestral
populations and as a result may accumulate unhealthy amounts of this
element. The overexposure to iron is postulated to be cause of shorter
lifespans in men as compared to women who are protected from iron
overload at least during their reproductive years. Men tend to have
higher levels of ferritin, a measure of pro-inflammatory processess,
than women and children. A recent randomized controlled study has
shown that reducing irons levels in middle aged men by phlebotomies
lead to both lower ferritin levels and lower all cause mortality (!)
which is the absolute no-proxy genuine real result in any medical
intervention study.

So if you like meat and if you are worried about it killing you, just
donate blood on a quarterly basis which is sufficient to keep your
ferritin levels below 50 and should completely protect you from meat's
poisonous impact.

Rafal


From spike66 at att.net  Thu Mar 15 20:34:12 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 13:34:12 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Cheap Source of Protein was Re: Pink Slime
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2fUYYm7iL2uoCvoTg5PZywf8h9jnk3sxZhvbNWExddF2Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1331585379.63556.YahooMailNeo@web164506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
 <CAPoR7a59hdSdeh=bWmavnqQ2zq32dkYMOu1tgp+q1tkG3UwnRA@mail.gmail.com>
 <00f101cd014d$f4cf2c60$de6d8520$@att.net>
 <CAM5aL2fG18Xv-4TUKKps5H0uhT2zUpHK619XHZ4hzktiQMCxqA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOJFdbLqtbyV4xx6z06jCv0_THTYtLOVRH0P4yrdmCxZSL0OXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <1331694594.19109.YahooMailNeo@web164506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
 <001e01cd0199$f1731e90$d4595bb0$@att.net> <4F606D7F.5080909@aleph.se>
 <D35AD130-CE21-43E7-942F-FBB6B02D3F76@gmail.com>
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 <005c01cd021b$6fdadf80$4f909e80$@att.net> <4F61243F.70105@aleph.se>
 <CAPoR7a64XzyN983OJwW1W7Q0CKPKMKe_AJnqdKX40cG-iq5f_Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <007101cd02c1$7a731b00$6f595100$@att.net>
 <CAM5aL2fUYYm7iL2uoCvoTg5PZywf8h9jnk3sxZhvbNWExddF2Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <006b01cd02ea$fc344820$f49cd860$@att.net>

 

 

>. On Behalf Of Dave Sill
Subject: Re: [ExI] Cheap Source of Protein was Re: Pink Slime

 

On Thu, Mar 15, 2012 at 11:37 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

>>.Nearly all bugs are edible: our stomachs know what to do.  But to make
them palatable requires a great deal of skill, some of which is yet to be
discovered, skills which will eventually be distributed via the internet.

 

>.I think you're overstating the case. A lot of insects require minimal
preparation, e.g., light roasting or a little seasoning.

 

Ja I think at least roasting will be necessary, to drive off some or most of
the water.  Otherwise they would be too gooey and get stuck in the teeth
etc, not advisable for a first date.  I have in mind some sort of tumbling
cylinder the size of a 55 gallon drum, turning slowly over a direct heat
source so that it holds at about 130C for several hours.  This should reduce
any size bug to a pile of dark gravelly consistency, which could then be
ground to a high-protein granular or dark flour consistency, from which we
could add yeast to produce a breadlike substance or perhaps high protein
crackers.

 

>.Obviously some people will have a hard time getting over their lifelong
insect-revulsion conditioning., 

 

Hunger and beer.  Great combination for reprogramming the appetite.

 

>. but I don't think it's necessary to get everyone on board.  -Dave

 

Agreed, and I don't want everyone on board.  Everyone is not on board with
sushi; this is a good thing.  All the more for me.  Enough left over to feed
that mighty devourer of sushi, the astounding Anders.

 

spike

 

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From spike66 at att.net  Thu Mar 15 20:53:13 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 13:53:13 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Pink Slime
In-Reply-To: <CAAc1gFiO7b7CupXqiN16gWtyGk97JjSdSGRnh6UhR9B6Qh2_xg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1331585379.63556.YahooMailNeo@web164506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
 <CAPoR7a59hdSdeh=bWmavnqQ2zq32dkYMOu1tgp+q1tkG3UwnRA@mail.gmail.com>
 <25470147-7E2A-4B9F-BA3D-B30BE572F3E3@gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFiO7b7CupXqiN16gWtyGk97JjSdSGRnh6UhR9B6Qh2_xg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <007c01cd02ed$a41de620$ec59b260$@att.net>



>... On Behalf Of Rafal Smigrodzki
Subject: Re: [ExI] Pink Slime

2012/3/13 Kryonica <kryonica at gmail.com>:
> But this morning on BBC news we were once more reminded of the dangers 
> of eating red and processed meat...
>
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-17345967

### I am mildly skeptical of the red meat kills claims. It's true that red
meat contains significant amounts of iron which is toxic to
mitochondria...So if you like meat and if you are worried about it killing
you, just donate blood on a quarterly basis which is sufficient to keep your
ferritin levels below 50 and should completely protect you from meat's
poisonous impact... Rafal
_______________________________________________


Rafal!  You are a gift, pal.  You offer reasonable explanations for that
which I already figured out to some extent via careful observation and
intuition.  Yesterday I hit the five gallon mark in blood donation.

spike



From sparge at gmail.com  Thu Mar 15 21:01:28 2012
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 17:01:28 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Pink Slime
In-Reply-To: <CAAc1gFiO7b7CupXqiN16gWtyGk97JjSdSGRnh6UhR9B6Qh2_xg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1331585379.63556.YahooMailNeo@web164506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
 <CAPoR7a59hdSdeh=bWmavnqQ2zq32dkYMOu1tgp+q1tkG3UwnRA@mail.gmail.com>
 <25470147-7E2A-4B9F-BA3D-B30BE572F3E3@gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFiO7b7CupXqiN16gWtyGk97JjSdSGRnh6UhR9B6Qh2_xg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2fkrqDpWM1nykAgEqydqAmrS-0e8gPmtCA+iP88Mb2Cwg@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Mar 15, 2012 at 4:39 PM, Rafal Smigrodzki <
rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com> wrote:

>
> ### I am mildly skeptical of the red meat kills claims.


I'm more than mildly skeptical. This is an observational study based on
self-reported eating habits. The mortality in the sample populations was
very low, and a 20% increase is insignificant. For more detailed debunking
see:

http://www.gnolls.org/2893/always-be-skeptical-of-nutrition-headlines-or-what-red-meat-consumption-and-mortality-pan-et-al-really-tells-us/
http://www.marksdailyapple.com/will-eating-red-meat-kill-you/
http://garytaubes.com/2012/03/science-pseudoscience-nutritional-epidemiology-and-meat
http://www.zoeharcombe.com/2012/03/red-meat-mortality-the-usual-bad-science/

So if you like meat and if you are worried about it killing you, just
> donate blood on a quarterly basis which is sufficient to keep your
> ferritin levels below 50 and should completely protect you from meat's
> poisonous impact.


I'm there.

-Dave
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From jrd1415 at gmail.com  Thu Mar 15 21:02:46 2012
From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 14:02:46 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Jaw-dropping CWRU Alzheimer's breakthrough?
In-Reply-To: <000501cd0261$665dd0c0$33197240$@att.net>
References: <mailman.466.1330314863.825.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
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Message-ID: <CAHUTwkO3nD4r=i1sLtXNYV3G_YSX5GAH9+V2+M6dN+9WZZ=s+g@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 9:09 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

>...we have a notion that bex somehow stimulates the mechanism which cleans up beta amyloids, but it isn't a good barrier crosser, but other similar medications are good crossers.

In several of your postings, Spike, you have mentioned that bex "isn't
a good barrier crosser".  These multiple assertions are liable to
cause folks to accept it as fact.  (Which it very well might be; links
please.)  However, before that claim matures into solid belief, I have
a couple of questions:

In the CWRU research, the mice were administered bex, and it "worked".
 So one might well ask, "If bex crosses the BBB only poorly, how come
it worked?"

One possible answer would be:  "The word "poorly" is seriously
imprecise.  Poorly relevant to what?  Clearly in the CWRU research,
poorly did NOT mean too poorly to be effective.  In terms of
effectiveness, there was no poorly to it.

We need to get at real numbers here, because if it "worked" in the
mouse model, then either "poorly" is still good enough, or bex's
effectiveness in the brain is not a function of its BBB crossing
ability.  In this latter regard I am reminded of this comment about
bex from the Wikipedia article:
                      --------------
Bexarotene is a retinoid specifically selective for retinoid X
receptors [RxRs]...
RXRs are located primarily in visceral organs such as the liver and kidney.
                      --------------

Liver and kidneys.

Since the current "theory" (as I understand it, of course) is that bex
upregulates ApoE, and that the Beta-Amyloid clearance follows, one
might ask, "Does ApoE usher from the liver and kidneys, and from there
proceed to the brain, crossing the BBB to perform its cleanup? In
which case it is ApoE's BBB crossing ability that is crucial -- and
apparently sufficient -- not bex's.

And a related question:  The CWRU research indicated that the
"cleanup" included reduction of soluble Beta-amyloid by 25% in a six
hour period.

Now, I haven't read the original research paper, so I may need someone
who has to help me here.  What I want to know is: were the soluble
beta-amyloid levels that were measured as having been reduced by 25%
measured in (1) blood, (2) body-wide blood and cytoplasm, or (3) brain
cell cytoplasm?

If the reduced amyloid levels are body-wide levels, then any reduction
in soluble amyloid levels in the brain could logically be the natural
result of equilibration of plasma amyloid levels body-wide by
diffusion.

Finally, plaque digestion in the brain has to be on site, as the
plaques are immobile.  If ApoE is the agent of plaque digestion then
ApoE must either cross the BBB or originate -- by up-regulation
presumably -- on the other side of the BBB.

Just trying to keep this all straight.

Best, Jeff Davis

   "Everything's hard till you know how to do it."
                        Ray Charles


From gsantostasi at gmail.com  Thu Mar 15 20:57:23 2012
From: gsantostasi at gmail.com (Giovanni Santostasi)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 15:57:23 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Right to medical information
Message-ID: <CAL+RtPe+LDQmbX0ZCz+3jrrN7pkON9ay03=Ed3qvvd2cyc2TBA@mail.gmail.com>

How this is possible? Right to medical information should be sacred:

https://www.aclu.org/blog/reproductive-freedom/kansas-pregnant-women-little-lie-your-doctor-wont-hurt-you


Giovanni


On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 11:21 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

>
>
> >...On Behalf Of The Avantguardian
> >...Subject: [ExI] Cheap Source of Protein was Re: Pink Slime
>
> >...http://edibug.wordpress.com/list-of-edible-insects/
>
> >... Also ant-farming might take on a whole new meaning.  Stuart LaForge
>
> Woohoo!  Cool.
>
> Our tastes in food are entirely psychological.  Our stomachs scarcely know
> the difference between one beast and another.  If after a good meal, we
> learn we had just devoured aardvark, it might cause gastric distress, but
> if
> we went about our merry way and only learned of it several days later, well
> I suppose it could cause gastric distress long after the unfortunate beast
> had been sent out to sea.
>
> Think of shrimp or prawns.  Had we not been introduced to it in our
> childhoods, there is no way we would look at that sea bug and  conclude
> that
> it is food.  Ah yes I know, just my mention of shrimp has you thinking
> sushi.  Food is psychological.  If we figure out how to control and
> manipulate our appetites, it would be the biggest breakthrough in
> technology
> ever.
>
> spike
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike66 at att.net  Thu Mar 15 21:32:17 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 14:32:17 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Jaw-dropping CWRU Alzheimer's breakthrough?
In-Reply-To: <CAHUTwkO3nD4r=i1sLtXNYV3G_YSX5GAH9+V2+M6dN+9WZZ=s+g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.466.1330314863.825.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <1330346071.48236.YahooMailNeo@web132106.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
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Message-ID: <00a401cd02f3$192f6f60$4b8e4e20$@att.net>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Jeff Davis
Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 2:03 PM
To: ExI chat list
Subject: Re: [ExI] Jaw-dropping CWRU Alzheimer's breakthrough?

On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 9:09 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

>>...we have a notion that bex somehow stimulates the mechanism which cleans
up beta amyloids, but it isn't a good barrier crosser, but other similar
medications are good crossers.

>...In several of your postings, Spike, you have mentioned that bex "isn't a
good barrier crosser".  These multiple assertions are liable to cause folks
to accept it as fact.  (Which it very well might be; links please.)
However, before that claim matures into solid belief, I have a couple of
questions:...In the CWRU research, the mice were administered bex, and it
"worked".
 So one might well ask, "If bex crosses the BBB only poorly, how come it
worked?"... Best, Jeff Davis


Jeff this is making me crazy, since the AD channels are smoking with
information but I don't know how to evaluate it.  What I understand is that
bexarotene is a lower crosser than some other similar medications, but
actual numbers are difficult to find.  The labs that have them aren't
talking.  Apparently substitution of a single COOH group with a methyl helps
it cross the barrier without harming its impact on beta amyloid mechanisms.
The problem with bexarotene is apparently the dose required to get
therapeutic levels in the brain cause a lot of side effects, especially in
those who have hypothyroid symptoms, which my family member does.  

However the medics know how to increase the crossing rate without wrecking
the medication, and are working the problem as fast as they can, and may it
be faster still.  Apparently the miraculous impact of bexarotene on mice is
not seen to the same degree in humans, or at least not nearly as quickly.
Damn.

UCLA and Salk have identified chemically related better crossers, but it
isn't clear that it is as effective as bexarotene was on the mice.  I am
hoping they publish soon.

spike 






From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 15 22:14:08 2012
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 15:14:08 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Jaw-dropping CWRU Alzheimer's breakthrough?
In-Reply-To: <00a401cd02f3$192f6f60$4b8e4e20$@att.net>
References: <mailman.466.1330314863.825.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <1330346071.48236.YahooMailNeo@web132106.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
 <00f101ccf565$40f7deb0$c2e79c10$@att.net>
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Message-ID: <1331849648.23359.YahooMailNeo@web164504.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>



?----- Original Message -----
> From: spike <spike66 at att.net>
> To: 'ExI chat list' <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Cc: 
> Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 2:32 PM
> Subject: Re: [ExI] Jaw-dropping CWRU Alzheimer's breakthrough?

[snip]
> However the medics know how to increase the crossing rate without wrecking
> the medication, and are working the problem as fast as they can, and may it
> be faster still.? Apparently the miraculous impact of bexarotene on mice is
> not seen to the same degree in humans, or at least not nearly as quickly.
> Damn.

Is there any data about intracranial bexarotene administration in mice? You might be able to deliver it by lumbar puncture?directly into the?spine or?epidural space. That would get the drug directly into the cerebrospinal fluid and the blood brain barrier would be less of an issue. It does carry more risk but how desperate is the situation?

Stuart LaForge


"The state that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards, and its fighting by fools." -Thucydides.




From kellycoinguy at gmail.com  Fri Mar 16 00:45:06 2012
From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 18:45:06 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Right to medical information
In-Reply-To: <CAL+RtPe+LDQmbX0ZCz+3jrrN7pkON9ay03=Ed3qvvd2cyc2TBA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL+RtPe+LDQmbX0ZCz+3jrrN7pkON9ay03=Ed3qvvd2cyc2TBA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPy8Rwb21EMddMsM-rKEsVTO05FGthdYszqaC4HPfoVuM8M02g@mail.gmail.com>

2012/3/15 Giovanni Santostasi <gsantostasi at gmail.com>:
> How this is possible? Right to medical information should be sacred:
>
> https://www.aclu.org/blog/reproductive-freedom/kansas-pregnant-women-little-lie-your-doctor-wont-hurt-you
>
> Giovanni

Damn, Giovanni, this is pretty stinking frightening!!! Gives a whole
new meaning to , "I don't think we're in Kansas anymore", in that
Kansas has now become the domain of Oz.

For those who didn't read the article, there is a law winding its way
through the Kansas legislature allowing doctors who are opposed to
abortion to "opt out" of telling women information about their coming
baby that might lead the woman to get an abortion. Said information
coming from an ultrasound or probably other procedures as well. Why
even have the procedure if you can't trust the information!?! Even
Mormon women sometimes abort babies with severe birth defects with a
wink and a nod from the religious authorities. I'm shocked, absolutely
shocked! I hope this is some kind of bizarre hoax, or that this bill
hasn't a prayer... of course it is Kansas... land of intelligent
design.

-Kelly


From kellycoinguy at gmail.com  Fri Mar 16 00:49:27 2012
From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 18:49:27 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Pink Slime
In-Reply-To: <CAPoR7a5VBZ-EXffxd2o0NdZmGAYzEYf2QAcV0OB9Bk_x0-CjAg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1331585379.63556.YahooMailNeo@web164506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
 <CAPoR7a59hdSdeh=bWmavnqQ2zq32dkYMOu1tgp+q1tkG3UwnRA@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAPy8RwZB+c0Sc_tjMK1JH-tZJhqUEatKs=YU6Tw+PwZGcR+LUA@mail.gmail.com>

2012/3/14 Stefano Vaj <stefano.vaj at gmail.com>:
> "Colour" should be easy enough, and if we can engineer the production of
> entire, structured body organs for, say, transplant, foie gras should not be
> much more difficult than a human liver... :-)

Makes you wonder if someday there won't be quite the same prohibition
against cannibalism as there is today. Would you eat factory produced
meat based on human DNA? Of all the human societal prohibitions, that
against cannibalism is one of the most universal. Brave new world
indeed.

-Kelly


From kellycoinguy at gmail.com  Fri Mar 16 01:04:57 2012
From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 19:04:57 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Cheap Source of Protein was Re: Pink Slime
In-Reply-To: <005c01cd021b$6fdadf80$4f909e80$@att.net>
References: <1331585379.63556.YahooMailNeo@web164506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
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Message-ID: <CAPy8RwaN_6h=-Vk9bZv4bWtRFhUrPmJWtdzm9-bCbdhjJ-P+kw@mail.gmail.com>

2012/3/14 spike <spike66 at att.net>:
> On Behalf Of Dave Sill
> Subject: Re: [ExI] Cheap Source of Protein was Re: Pink Slime
>
> Has anyone here actually eaten a bug?? I have, but it wasn?t voluntarily,
> and I didn?t get to taste it.? I didn?t even realize my mouth was open as I
> was riding my motorcycle.? It did hurt when it drilled me in the back of the
> throat.? There was nothing to do but gulp and drink.

I have eaten ants on a voluntary basis from time to time. Live. I have
found that some ants are not very good. The ones that bunch up in
large masses on the sidewalks are particularly nasty and bitter. The
good ones have a very nice zing to them from the formic acid. This
sour taste (somewhat reminiscent of a lime, but IMHO a little better
tasting than that) is really the dominant flavor drive in ants.
Generally, the slightly larger ants are better, and if you aren't too
adventurous, you can always start with chocolate covered ants.

http://insectcandy.bizland.com/store/page1.html

> For all we know, insects are as tasty as crunchy little shrimp.

Many of them are. I've heard that praying mantises aren't bad, saw
some African kids eating them... and in China insects are on the menu
here and there. Great taste treat. They eat snakes too... and fish
eyes... lots of weird stuff.

Parenthetically, there is a hypothesis that early primate evolution
was driven by the niche of eating insects in the low canopy. So
insects are highly likely to be pretty darn healthy for us.

I suspect that if they were processed, that none of us would find them
in the least bit disgusting. People who eschew sea weed eat processed
kelp far more often than they would suspect. I wonder if you would
even have to note that there were insects in the food... so long as it
met other nutritional requirements and was processed early enough and
thoroughly enough. Perhaps you could even use insect derived proteins
for your artificial meats...

I have a rule when I go into a restaurant... if it's on the menu and
I've never had it before... I will order it first thing. The wilder
sounding the better. The only thing I have passed on given the
opportunity is snails... for some reason, that just makes me go EEWWW.
I think it's the thought of slime, though they probably wash that off.
If I encounter it again though, I'll order it. Rules are rules.

-Kelly



From spike66 at att.net  Fri Mar 16 00:57:46 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 17:57:46 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Jaw-dropping CWRU Alzheimer's breakthrough?
In-Reply-To: <1331849648.23359.YahooMailNeo@web164504.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.466.1330314863.825.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <1330346071.48236.YahooMailNeo@web132106.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
 <00f101ccf565$40f7deb0$c2e79c10$@att.net>
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Message-ID: <00ca01cd030f$cdc7ab60$69570220$@att.net>


[snip]
>>... However the medics know how to increase the crossing rate without 
> wrecking the medication, and are working the problem as fast as they 
> can...

>...Is there any data about intracranial bexarotene administration in mice?
You might be able to deliver it by lumbar puncture?directly into the?spine
or?epidural space. That would get the drug directly into the cerebrospinal
fluid and the blood brain barrier would be less of an issue. It does carry
more risk but how desperate is the situation?  Stuart LaForge

Eeesh, I don't know Avant.  I am waaaay outside my area of expertise here.
I was still thinking about the notion of dissolving the bex in some material
which might increase its barrier crossing rate, such as alcohol, but again I
am way outside my area of expertise.  My intuition tells me that if this
stuff were dissolved in alcohol, it would ionize the COOH group off of there
perhaps, or if not that, then ionize the hydrogen with the COOH in place.
But I don't know if it works that way.

Good luck to us, we will probably know a lot more about this a few months
from now.  If we scale metabolism linearly, a day to a mouse is about a
month to a human.  But I don't know if it works that way either, nor do I
know if the barrier scales.  The mouse has a lot less volume to surface area
in its brain than a human, but the blood is pretty similar: mouse blood
cells are not that different in size from ours.

I don't know if bexarotene is THE ONE, but I suspect one of her sisters will
be.  Good luck!

spike







From spike66 at att.net  Fri Mar 16 01:04:37 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 18:04:37 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Pink Slime
In-Reply-To: <CAPy8RwZB+c0Sc_tjMK1JH-tZJhqUEatKs=YU6Tw+PwZGcR+LUA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1331585379.63556.YahooMailNeo@web164506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
 <CAPoR7a59hdSdeh=bWmavnqQ2zq32dkYMOu1tgp+q1tkG3UwnRA@mail.gmail.com>
 <00f101cd014d$f4cf2c60$de6d8520$@att.net>
 <CAPoR7a5VBZ-EXffxd2o0NdZmGAYzEYf2QAcV0OB9Bk_x0-CjAg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPy8RwZB+c0Sc_tjMK1JH-tZJhqUEatKs=YU6Tw+PwZGcR+LUA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00cb01cd0310$c28a0e40$479e2ac0$@att.net>

>... On Behalf Of Kelly Anderson
Subject: Re: [ExI] Pink Slime

2012/3/14 Stefano Vaj <stefano.vaj at gmail.com>:
>>... "Colour" should be easy enough, and if we can engineer the production 
> of entire, structured body organs for, say, transplant, foie gras 
> should not be much more difficult than a human liver... :-)

>...Makes you wonder if someday there won't be quite the same prohibition
against cannibalism as there is today. Would you eat factory produced meat
based on human DNA? Of all the human societal prohibitions, that against
cannibalism is one of the most universal. Brave new world indeed.  -Kelly
_______________________________________________


I don't see why that would be prohibited so long as no humans were slain.
If a vampire club drinks each other's blood there is no crime committed, nor
is there if some young mother wants to donate a placenta to be devoured by
someone who has some notion that it is a good idea.  No law is broken there,
as far as I know.  The real message here is I would oppose ANY law that was
made because we think of some notion is gross or offensive but not actually
harmful.  Reasoning: I don't want some sensitive type deciding that cryonics
is too gross and we should be doing it because it offends their delicate
sensibility.  So, devouring lab grown human flesh is OK with me.

spike



From kellycoinguy at gmail.com  Fri Mar 16 01:28:33 2012
From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 19:28:33 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Eliminate people to reduce 'warming' and 'save Earth?"
In-Reply-To: <1331679110.30308.YahooMailNeo@web164504.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <CAEUzo3KL3k0A0BqoOMgt=RAyJ-Q_biiC9uwOkhVFRtXHC5gVkA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACMJz981fh+z2iqFeqP4M5LHKP3VB6KVnC=iqPpqyb3G56N2mw@mail.gmail.com>
 <1331679110.30308.YahooMailNeo@web164504.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAPy8RwbJ_hX8nbF0UxgE0r1Z5nsE-w64qs6vKYSDAtO2mm6y8A@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 4:51 PM, The Avantguardian
<avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
>> Perfectly reasonable suggestion & one that many of us have been
>> practising for decades.
>
> The problem with reasoned arguments against procreation is that only
> reasonable people will abstain from procreating.

This is a thought I've had for years...

> This has the problem of giving?irrational people a huge reproductive
> advantage. In the parlance of biology, you are?*selecting* for stupid
> people.?You really want results??Have the Pope tell people that God
> has had second thoughts about the "be fruitful and multiply" thing.
> THAT?might do the trick.?In the mean time, I feel the need to urge
> the smart to breed too. Lest everybody thinks they can outsource being
> smart to China.

I've read accounts suggesting tax credits for smart people to have
children.. can't remember if it was fiction or just a hopeful
suggestion. Or perhaps both.

> Tell me about it. If you want a revolution in the middle-east, then
> don't smuggle them guns, smuggle them birth-control pills instead.

Serious question... would that result in you being subjected to many
years in prison or capital punishment under Sharia law?

> But in the long run, we are going to need more living area plain and
> simple. I suggest not waiting until the earth is as hot and crowded as
> a space capsule before we start moving.

As the smart people begin to leave earth, that will leave behind only
the dumb and lazy. There was a lovely piece of science fiction I saw
not too long ago about that... Ah, "Masters of Science Fiction" --
"The Discarded" I believe it was where they discussed that...

-Kelly



From spike66 at att.net  Fri Mar 16 01:30:00 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 18:30:00 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Cheap Source of Protein was Re: Pink Slime
In-Reply-To: <CAPy8RwaN_6h=-Vk9bZv4bWtRFhUrPmJWtdzm9-bCbdhjJ-P+kw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1331585379.63556.YahooMailNeo@web164506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
 <CAPoR7a59hdSdeh=bWmavnqQ2zq32dkYMOu1tgp+q1tkG3UwnRA@mail.gmail.com>
 <00f101cd014d$f4cf2c60$de6d8520$@att.net>
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Message-ID: <00cc01cd0314$4e806900$eb813b00$@att.net>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Kelly Anderson
...
>
>> ...Has anyone here actually eaten a bug?? I have, but it wasn?t 
> voluntarily, and I didn?t get to taste it...  spike


>...I have eaten ants on a voluntary basis from time to time...The only
thing I have passed on given the opportunity is snails... for some reason,
that just makes me go EEWWW... -Kelly

Good, that's all the more for me.  {8-]

Where this whole thread goes is if we master the technology of controlling
our appetite, it will be an enormous breakthrough, a species saver.  There
are so many materials our stomachs can handle with no problem: our digestive
systems are open minded compared to our minds.  We can imagine putting
together all manner of nutritious but revolting concoctions.  One thing I
would like to try some time is to swallow a tube and attempt to introduce
some kind of processes material without experiencing its flavor.  Perhaps
add spices such that it tastes familiar when we burp.  The original intent
of spices were to cover the foul taste of meat that was a bit past its prime
or was a more revolting cut of meat.  Seems like we could put some
horrifying glop into the blender, mix it all up, add some Taco Bell hot
sauce, swallow a tube, drain it into there without tasting it.  We could
toss bugs in there, aardvark gizzards, rutabagas, our daily vitamins, all of
it, and down it all goes.

Perhaps we pretreat with hunger and beer?

spike





From kellycoinguy at gmail.com  Fri Mar 16 03:00:30 2012
From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 21:00:30 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Cheap Source of Protein was Re: Pink Slime
In-Reply-To: <00cc01cd0314$4e806900$eb813b00$@att.net>
References: <1331585379.63556.YahooMailNeo@web164506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
 <CAPoR7a59hdSdeh=bWmavnqQ2zq32dkYMOu1tgp+q1tkG3UwnRA@mail.gmail.com>
 <00f101cd014d$f4cf2c60$de6d8520$@att.net>
 <CAM5aL2fG18Xv-4TUKKps5H0uhT2zUpHK619XHZ4hzktiQMCxqA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOJFdbLqtbyV4xx6z06jCv0_THTYtLOVRH0P4yrdmCxZSL0OXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <1331694594.19109.YahooMailNeo@web164506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
 <001e01cd0199$f1731e90$d4595bb0$@att.net>
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Message-ID: <CAPy8RwbG+ZaHqBaQde4J02H245yEA586_uv3u1hcNiWCuQv4eQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Mar 15, 2012 at 7:30 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> -----Original Message-----
> From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
> [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Kelly Anderson
> ...
>>
>>> ...Has anyone here actually eaten a bug?? I have, but it wasn?t
>> voluntarily, and I didn?t get to taste it... ?spike
>
>
>>...I have eaten ants on a voluntary basis from time to time...The only
> thing I have passed on given the opportunity is snails... for some reason,
> that just makes me go EEWWW... -Kelly
>
> Good, that's all the more for me. ?{8-]

Maybe next time...

> Where this whole thread goes is if we master the technology of controlling
> our appetite, it will be an enormous breakthrough, a species saver.


> There
> are so many materials our stomachs can handle with no problem: our digestive
> systems are open minded compared to our minds.

Clearly, that is the case.

> We can imagine putting
> together all manner of nutritious but revolting concoctions.

We do, it's called processed foods. There are all manner of algae,
kelp, etc. in processed foods. Even petroleum by products.

> One thing I
> would like to try some time is to swallow a tube and attempt to introduce
> some kind of processes material without experiencing its flavor.

It would be an interesting experiment... the primary thing I would
want to know is if you felt full afterwards... My dad told me once
that his hunger went away after intravenous feeding and that it was a
very strange feeling for him...

>?Perhaps
> add spices such that it tastes familiar when we burp. ?The original intent
> of spices were to cover the foul taste of meat that was a bit past its prime
> or was a more revolting cut of meat.

And, it was originally only available to the rich and royal.

> Seems like we could put some
> horrifying glop into the blender, mix it all up, add some Taco Bell hot
> sauce, swallow a tube, drain it into there without tasting it. ?We could
> toss bugs in there, aardvark gizzards, rutabagas, our daily vitamins, all of
> it, and down it all goes.

What do you think Taco Bell hot sauce was originally designed to do?
Think about it.

> Perhaps we pretreat with hunger and beer?

'Hunger is the Best Sauce in the World'
     - Miguel de Cervantes

-Kelly



From kellycoinguy at gmail.com  Fri Mar 16 03:52:59 2012
From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 21:52:59 -0600
Subject: [ExI] [Beowulf] oil immersion cooled blades
In-Reply-To: <20120315085141.GP9891@leitl.org>
References: <20120315085141.GP9891@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <CAPy8RwbNFHkxvgA3VOYfgOjs+K_4v-RHHq3kv6rxKvmXj8NASg@mail.gmail.com>

I saw a demonstration of a startup company here in Utah that managed
somehow to create laminar flow of fluids and air in tubes... it was
really an amazing demo, and their claim was that it could be used to
cool microchips much better than current technology. If I can get the
name of the company I'll pass it along. I don't recall myself right
now, and Mr. Google seems to know nothing of it.

It was an impressive demo.

-Kelly


From kellycoinguy at gmail.com  Fri Mar 16 03:56:11 2012
From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 21:56:11 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Coalition Wants Moratorium on 'Extreme' Synthetic Bio
	Businesses
In-Reply-To: <1331756749.88271.YahooMailNeo@web164503.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <CA+LBAbQjHYukERWGHeghBBAyJ+_gG-bQz_KBeD5g+Xum5z0w7Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <1331756749.88271.YahooMailNeo@web164503.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAPy8RwZwk+8Xm20pQ++KybNoGTt=NEjfq4fDTWmBDYW+RaO6EQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 2:25 PM, The Avantguardian
<avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>________________________________
>>From: James Clement <clementlawyer at gmail.com>
>>To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
>>Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 11:13 AM
>>Subject: [ExI] Coalition Wants Moratorium on 'Extreme' Synthetic Bio Businesses
>>
>>
>>Arggg!
>>
>>
>>Coalition Wants Moratorium on 'Extreme' Synthetic Bio Businesses
>>March 13, 2012
>
> I can't believe the countless hoards that seem intent on forever prohibiting exactly what I spent 10 years of my life and?over?$100,000?of my money at university learning how to do. I have the knowledge, skills, and desire to?read and write the?scripting language?of life. But instead now, because of people like this, I drive a taxi cab. With all these bioconservative apes in charge, in the US, a biology degree might as well be a degree in?music appreciation. I even tried to start a religion that would allow me to practice my arts under first amendment rights. But it didn't really take off. Maybe I should have gotten a degree in obstructionism. Seems to be a growth industry these days.
>

You only need a few members to join up... I'm game! Shall we branch
off of pastafanarianism? :-)

-Kelly



From kellycoinguy at gmail.com  Fri Mar 16 03:36:41 2012
From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 21:36:41 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Pink Slime
In-Reply-To: <00cb01cd0310$c28a0e40$479e2ac0$@att.net>
References: <1331585379.63556.YahooMailNeo@web164506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
 <CAPoR7a59hdSdeh=bWmavnqQ2zq32dkYMOu1tgp+q1tkG3UwnRA@mail.gmail.com>
 <00f101cd014d$f4cf2c60$de6d8520$@att.net>
 <CAPoR7a5VBZ-EXffxd2o0NdZmGAYzEYf2QAcV0OB9Bk_x0-CjAg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPy8RwZB+c0Sc_tjMK1JH-tZJhqUEatKs=YU6Tw+PwZGcR+LUA@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAPy8RwYKWaCYd3PerZKOpGY-FLb-Xf-a1CB_30LsjsCrHwQh3A@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Mar 15, 2012 at 7:04 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>>... On Behalf Of Kelly Anderson
> Subject: Re: [ExI] Pink Slime
>
> 2012/3/14 Stefano Vaj <stefano.vaj at gmail.com>:
>>>... "Colour" should be easy enough, and if we can engineer the production
>> of entire, structured body organs for, say, transplant, foie gras
>> should not be much more difficult than a human liver... :-)
>
>>...Makes you wonder if someday there won't be quite the same prohibition
> against cannibalism as there is today. Would you eat factory produced meat
> based on human DNA? Of all the human societal prohibitions, that against
> cannibalism is one of the most universal. Brave new world indeed. ?-Kelly
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> I don't see why that would be prohibited so long as no humans were slain.

I wonder if the religious right would see it the same way? :-)

> If a vampire club drinks each other's blood there is no crime committed, nor
> is there if some young mother wants to donate a placenta to be devoured by
> someone who has some notion that it is a good idea. ?No law is broken there,
> as far as I know.

It seems to be legal everywhere, but I did find one reference that
said... "By law, Sara has to cook the placenta at the placenta owner?s
home." So there is apparently some legislation in some places relating
to the practice. Apparently, since it is not an "organ" of the mother
or the baby, it isn't considered cannibalism...

> The real message here is I would oppose ANY law that was
> made because we think of some notion is gross or offensive but not actually
> harmful. ?Reasoning: I don't want some sensitive type deciding that cryonics
> is too gross and we should be doing it because it offends their delicate
> sensibility. ?So, devouring lab grown human flesh is OK with me.

Me too, but we are credentialed libertarians Spike... I wonder how the
big government is good government crowd would respond.

-Kelly



From kellycoinguy at gmail.com  Fri Mar 16 04:16:00 2012
From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 22:16:00 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Alternate to shrinking people
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB7sLZRRHVeUJ6QMFv5hU_FFty3_a=S7waoHw-STczcoYw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB7sLZRRHVeUJ6QMFv5hU_FFty3_a=S7waoHw-STczcoYw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPy8RwZ1msr=nsxbHxS5goWNEcGz-LK-CZ78VR_Bh1qz6rJD5Q@mail.gmail.com>

Keith,

  Once you get the beamed energy lift vehicles working, is there any
reason that half way up through the atmosphere (adjusted for optical
density) a space based energy beam couldn't take over once you have
enough energy being gathered in space? Would that make sense? Seems
like it would to me.

-Kelly


From kellycoinguy at gmail.com  Fri Mar 16 04:12:03 2012
From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 22:12:03 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Atlantic article on human reengineering with very strong
	reactions
In-Reply-To: <20120314161018.GV9891@leitl.org>
References: <CAJX-7wVcrpNWs_yNp5q5TWh7e7t8eyZWisMhEt7OQ6zMH8naDQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4F5F294B.1080205@aleph.se>
 <CAPoR7a6Bv52-4DYdw4qXGJ1iOsZ9Z+eE9QmvoxB40JYcbDDPKw@mail.gmail.com>
 <1331712577.9755.YahooMailNeo@web164505.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
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Message-ID: <CAPy8RwZf1A_pUAbgDt1gEc-bBQ41K-73893hqKZuDHtJAifRmg@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 10:10 AM, Eugen Leitl <eugen at leitl.org> wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 08:12:48AM -0700, spike wrote:
> The average european car is about a ton, US is twice that. The problem
> is expensive fitness display, more weight for luxuries and also subjective
> perception of more safety.

I'm having trouble with the "subjective perception" of more safety. I
refer you to Sir Isaac Newton, who is a Sir for better reasons than
Sir Elton John...

F = ma

When competing with a 3 ton SUV, and you are in a half ton tin can of
an ape hauler, You experience six times the acceleration
(deceleration) as the other guy. It's just simple physics. I don't see
what's subjective about that.

If everyone ran around in little cars, then it would be equally safe
for everyone...

If that doesn't do it for you, then here are the real world statistics
from a source no less reliable than Edmunds. (That's a VERY reliable
source, btw)
http://www.edmunds.com/car-safety/are-smaller-cars-as-safe-as-large-cars.html

What's funny is that pickup trucks are apparently more dangerous than
cars... wonder if that number is skewed by all the Navajos in
Arizona... Hmmm.... food for thought. Seriously though, people try
things in pickup trucks that they should not try, and that's probably
the answer.

-Kelly


From kellycoinguy at gmail.com  Fri Mar 16 04:31:36 2012
From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 22:31:36 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Gordon Moore Quote, Extropy and Panspermia
Message-ID: <CAPy8RwYWBkTVMMoFAQezgO_SVimgHMqB88BxuT=gm1Tq3-TauQ@mail.gmail.com>

I was listening to Gordon Moore (of Moore's Law fame) giving a talk on
youtube... and he said something that I thought was worth writing
down...

While referring to the increase in the exponent itself .... he said,
"What amazes me more than anything is this acceleration... I think we
have our own form of dark energy. I don't understand it in cosmology
and it's just about as hard to understand as it fits in here..."
  - Gordon Moore

I am coming more and more to the opinion that when Kurzweil talks
about the Law of Accelerating Returns, he is tapping into something
bigger than even he is letting on. I think that the emergence of
complexity may be a law of thermodynamics. I think it may be a
fundamental aspect of physics... extropy may be more than a mailing
list, it may be a law of the universe. If it is in fact a law of the
universe, then that gives a logical mathematical basis for believing
in galactic panspermia... 100,000,000 years is a very short time to
come up with single cells at the rate things were changing 4 billion
to 3.9 billion years ago... Just some food for thought. This isn't
Moore's idea, it's mine... so don't saddle him with my crazy idea.

Other highlights of the talk were that they are doing
photo-lithography (this might be a few year old talk) on the scale of
a third of a wavelength of the light they were using to do the
lithography. That's just too cool. Also, that a constant for Intel
over the years is that chips have always sold on the order of a
billion dollars per acre. That's a fun way to think of it. He was also
talking about how they were getting quantum leaking through the
substrate because it was so very thin. Two dimensional Moore's Law
will run out of steam around 2020, apparently, due to physical
limitations related to the size of atoms.. but that there is always
the third dimension to play with. Chips will undoubtedly have to start
getting thicker and more complex in a third dimension if we are to
continue the curve. Even new flat technologies based on something
besides silicon dioxide won't help because atoms are atoms... the
third dimension is the only way out unless you can figure out how to
use subatomic particles. 3D silicon seems easier than harnessing
subatomic particles to me... but what do I know?

-Kelly


From spike66 at att.net  Fri Mar 16 05:32:06 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 22:32:06 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Atlantic article on human reengineering with very
	strong	reactions
In-Reply-To: <CAPy8RwZf1A_pUAbgDt1gEc-bBQ41K-73893hqKZuDHtJAifRmg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJX-7wVcrpNWs_yNp5q5TWh7e7t8eyZWisMhEt7OQ6zMH8naDQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4F5F294B.1080205@aleph.se>
 <CAPoR7a6Bv52-4DYdw4qXGJ1iOsZ9Z+eE9QmvoxB40JYcbDDPKw@mail.gmail.com>
 <1331712577.9755.YahooMailNeo@web164505.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
 <4F607724.5000802@aleph.se> <00a901cd01f4$eaea6410$c0bf2c30$@att.net>
 <20120314161018.GV9891@leitl.org>
 <CAPy8RwZf1A_pUAbgDt1gEc-bBQ41K-73893hqKZuDHtJAifRmg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00e201cd0336$22bdbdf0$683939d0$@att.net>


>... On Behalf Of Kelly Anderson
...

>...If everyone ran around in little cars, then it would be equally safe for
everyone... -Kelly

Ja, but the problem is that everyone will not.  Some will ride in little
slow half tons, some will just stay with the old tried and true Detroit V8.
The Detroit is expensive to run, but there are some things it does very
well.  It is fast, comfortable, carries a lot of apes, can be taken cross
country, etc.  What we really need is a way to separate the two, in order to
keep the lightweights safer.
 
Do think about this problem, for it is one that governments really can help
do.  Governments legitimately make traffic rules and build infrastructure.
What we need is to divide major roads, and keep one side for the efficient
light guys, the other for the old V8s.  It isn't clear exactly how to do
that, but try to envision your local road system done that way.  Imagine one
side done in roads where the specs require a smoother surface.  It can be
done with current technology, but it is more expensive to build and more
expensive to maintain a road with a lower tolerance for anomalies.  But if
we require the maximum road anomaly to be half what we currently require,
then a wheel half the diameter would still give an acceptable ride.  A half
diameter wheel would be about one eighth the weight and be more compatible
with the overall design I envision.
  
We can do this, but the older bigger cars will pose a safety hazard to the
new small guys.  We will need to resurface half of the roads and rethink
maintenance.

spike






From eugen at leitl.org  Fri Mar 16 07:55:44 2012
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2012 08:55:44 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Alternate to shrinking people
In-Reply-To: <CAPy8RwZ1msr=nsxbHxS5goWNEcGz-LK-CZ78VR_Bh1qz6rJD5Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB7sLZRRHVeUJ6QMFv5hU_FFty3_a=S7waoHw-STczcoYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPy8RwZ1msr=nsxbHxS5goWNEcGz-LK-CZ78VR_Bh1qz6rJD5Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120316075544.GP9891@leitl.org>

On Thu, Mar 15, 2012 at 10:16:00PM -0600, Kelly Anderson wrote:
> Keith,
> 
>   Once you get the beamed energy lift vehicles working, is there any
> reason that half way up through the atmosphere (adjusted for optical
> density) a space based energy beam couldn't take over once you have
> enough energy being gathered in space? Would that make sense? Seems
> like it would to me.

Not helping you during bootstrap, which is the critical part.

Maglev track up Mt Chimborazo and then a solid state laser battery
tracking the ascending vehicle for several 100 km appears easiest.

Of course funding a 100 t maglev track at the equator is not easy,
even though the coast is near.


From eugen at leitl.org  Fri Mar 16 08:06:30 2012
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2012 09:06:30 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Atlantic article on human reengineering with very
	strong	reactions
In-Reply-To: <CAPy8RwZf1A_pUAbgDt1gEc-bBQ41K-73893hqKZuDHtJAifRmg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJX-7wVcrpNWs_yNp5q5TWh7e7t8eyZWisMhEt7OQ6zMH8naDQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4F5F294B.1080205@aleph.se>
 <CAPoR7a6Bv52-4DYdw4qXGJ1iOsZ9Z+eE9QmvoxB40JYcbDDPKw@mail.gmail.com>
 <1331712577.9755.YahooMailNeo@web164505.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
 <4F607724.5000802@aleph.se> <00a901cd01f4$eaea6410$c0bf2c30$@att.net>
 <20120314161018.GV9891@leitl.org>
 <CAPy8RwZf1A_pUAbgDt1gEc-bBQ41K-73893hqKZuDHtJAifRmg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120316080630.GQ9891@leitl.org>

On Thu, Mar 15, 2012 at 10:12:03PM -0600, Kelly Anderson wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 10:10 AM, Eugen Leitl <eugen at leitl.org> wrote:
> > On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 08:12:48AM -0700, spike wrote:
> > The average european car is about a ton, US is twice that. The problem
> > is expensive fitness display, more weight for luxuries and also subjective
> > perception of more safety.
> 
> I'm having trouble with the "subjective perception" of more safety. I
> refer you to Sir Isaac Newton, who is a Sir for better reasons than
> Sir Elton John...
> 
> F = ma

You're forgetting that people are driving faster to compensate the subjectively
perceived higher safety margin and SUVs are typically top-heavy and have high inertia. 
Net result is negative safety.


From pharos at gmail.com  Fri Mar 16 09:06:58 2012
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2012 09:06:58 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Gordon Moore Quote, Extropy and Panspermia
In-Reply-To: <CAPy8RwYWBkTVMMoFAQezgO_SVimgHMqB88BxuT=gm1Tq3-TauQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPy8RwYWBkTVMMoFAQezgO_SVimgHMqB88BxuT=gm1Tq3-TauQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armjj=ATyusKefmRbAudLghKyv5_F_LG=ue0PK5vbnzKRew@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Mar 16, 2012 at 4:31 AM, Kelly Anderson  wrote:
> I was listening to Gordon Moore (of Moore's Law fame) giving a talk on
> youtube... and he said something that I thought was worth writing
> down...
>
> While referring to the increase in the exponent itself .... he said,
> "What amazes me more than anything is this acceleration... I think we
> have our own form of dark energy. I don't understand it in cosmology
> and it's just about as hard to understand as it fits in here..."
> ?- Gordon Moore
>
> I am coming more and more to the opinion that when Kurzweil talks
> about the Law of Accelerating Returns, he is tapping into something
> bigger than even he is letting on. I think that the emergence of
> complexity may be a law of thermodynamics. I think it may be a
> fundamental aspect of physics... extropy may be more than a mailing
> list, it may be a law of the universe. If it is in fact a law of the
> universe, then that gives a logical mathematical basis for believing
> in galactic panspermia... 100,000,000 years is a very short time to
> come up with single cells at the rate things were changing 4 billion
> to 3.9 billion years ago... Just some food for thought. This isn't
> Moore's idea, it's mine... so don't saddle him with my crazy idea.
>
>


The problem is our education system.  People just don't understand
exponential growth.
Daily life is mostly linear. Stuff changes little from year to year,
slightly better, worse, bigger, smaller.....

Most problems get postponed. I'll do that tomorrow, or when it becomes
a more serious problem, maybe never.

With exponential growth, though, it doubles with every iteration. So,
when half your yard is covered with weeds, and you finally take notice
of the problem, you only have one more cycle left.

People even struggle to understand compound interest, which is less
significant than exponentials. Witness all those struggling with debt
problems.


BillK



From pharos at gmail.com  Fri Mar 16 08:41:39 2012
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2012 08:41:39 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Atlantic article on human reengineering with very strong
	reactions
In-Reply-To: <00e201cd0336$22bdbdf0$683939d0$@att.net>
References: <CAJX-7wVcrpNWs_yNp5q5TWh7e7t8eyZWisMhEt7OQ6zMH8naDQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4F5F294B.1080205@aleph.se>
 <CAPoR7a6Bv52-4DYdw4qXGJ1iOsZ9Z+eE9QmvoxB40JYcbDDPKw@mail.gmail.com>
 <1331712577.9755.YahooMailNeo@web164505.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
 <4F607724.5000802@aleph.se>
 <00a901cd01f4$eaea6410$c0bf2c30$@att.net>
 <20120314161018.GV9891@leitl.org>
 <CAPy8RwZf1A_pUAbgDt1gEc-bBQ41K-73893hqKZuDHtJAifRmg@mail.gmail.com>
 <00e201cd0336$22bdbdf0$683939d0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAL_armh4Vqw4_svygtLiTdLgQHyAu+cbLgAGMxFsYhxtY6xMOA@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Mar 16, 2012 at 5:32 AM, spike  wrote:
> Ja, but the problem is that everyone will not. ?Some will ride in little
> slow half tons, some will just stay with the old tried and true Detroit V8.
> The Detroit is expensive to run, but there are some things it does very
> well. ?It is fast, comfortable, carries a lot of apes, can be taken cross
> country, etc. ?What we really need is a way to separate the two, in order to
> keep the lightweights safer.
>
> We can do this, but the older bigger cars will pose a safety hazard to the
> new small guys. ?We will need to resurface half of the roads and rethink
> maintenance.
>
>

Road accident stats are very complicated. That's why there is so much
discussion about them.

Head-on crashes between a small car and a SUV are relatively rare.
SUVs often are in single vehicle accidents, usually involving a
roll-over.

Small cars are mostly driven in cities, so are usually involved in
lower speed accidents. Minicars are not the vehicle of choice for
1,000 mile cross-country trips. ;)

Minicars are modern and have better designed accident protection than
any ten-year old vehicle.

It is not only the driver you have to consider. There are passenger
and pedestrian injuries as well.
If I am a pedestrian, I am far more likely to survive being hit by a
small car than by a SUV. Especially if the SUV is fitted with bull
bars, which are lethal for pedestrians.

The most dangerous feature in any car is the driver. Once the cars
drive themselves, accidents will become really rare.

Will there be campaigns for human freedom? 'Bring back death on the
roads! It's our right!'.


BillK



From eugen at leitl.org  Fri Mar 16 10:32:15 2012
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2012 11:32:15 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Gordon Moore Quote, Extropy and Panspermia
In-Reply-To: <CAPy8RwYWBkTVMMoFAQezgO_SVimgHMqB88BxuT=gm1Tq3-TauQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPy8RwYWBkTVMMoFAQezgO_SVimgHMqB88BxuT=gm1Tq3-TauQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120316103215.GT9891@leitl.org>

On Thu, Mar 15, 2012 at 10:31:36PM -0600, Kelly Anderson wrote:

> While referring to the increase in the exponent itself .... he said,
> "What amazes me more than anything is this acceleration... I think we
> have our own form of dark energy. I don't understand it in cosmology
> and it's just about as hard to understand as it fits in here..."
>   - Gordon Moore

He must be getting mystical in his old age. There's nothing particularly
difficult about scaling laws in 2D, driven by a lot of money --
consider the costs of plants for each new node. And Moore doesn't
say anything about performance, only the number of affordable
transistors on a piece of a particular semiconductor.
 
> I am coming more and more to the opinion that when Kurzweil talks
> about the Law of Accelerating Returns, he is tapping into something

The Kurzweil's (Morave's actually) Law of Accelerated returns isn't much of a law.
Anyone who understands the basics of benchmarking would be very, very
careful to put a single scalar even on conventional systems. 
Speaking of meaningless benchmarks (which don't lie; liars do
benchmarks) how do you even run Linpack on a Jacquard loom?
Are you streaming, or is this random-access? Why?

If you're willing to cherry-pick your measurements, you can fit
any curve. 

Consider the following curves http://www.gotw.ca/publications/concurrency-ddj.htm
(the essay is from 2004, data updated in 2009, and he
doesn't mention the real problem: needing not just concurrency,
but shared-nothing asynchronous concurrency)

And what does the law forecast, actually? That the linear
semilog will go on forever? Exponential processes run very soon
into the limitations of this universe, and stop being that.
Buh-bye.

It's pretty obvious that there will be a bump in the Moravec's (because
it should be called Moravec's Law of Acclerated Returns, as he came up
with it first) performance curve around 2020. Just as the clocks stopped doubling
in 2003, quite suddenly, we'll be suddenly out of shrinkage space
and TSV stacking is off-Moore. Does this mean we can kill this
kooky pseudolaw, or will there more elaborate benchmark contortions
to plaster over the the hockey stick part curve, until we get real 3D integration going,
which should be good for another four orders of magnitude, or so?

> bigger than even he is letting on. I think that the emergence of
> complexity may be a law of thermodynamics. I think it may be a

If you study the history of the Solar System, it's more like
the law of being really, really lucky. Consider all the other
systems which all don't look at all lucky, because the losers
of this particular Russian roulette can't.

> fundamental aspect of physics... extropy may be more than a mailing
> list, it may be a law of the universe. If it is in fact a law of the
> universe, then that gives a logical mathematical basis for believing
> in galactic panspermia... 100,000,000 years is a very short time to

There is even no plausible mechanism for interstellar panspermia.
The only way I could *imagine* it happening is by crosscontamination
through Oort clouds during close flybys, which implies every icy
body out there is lousy with life which doesn't strike me as very
probable. There's not that many liquid pockets around, and they don't
stay that for very long.

> come up with single cells at the rate things were changing 4 billion
> to 3.9 billion years ago... Just some food for thought. This isn't
> Moore's idea, it's mine... so don't saddle him with my crazy idea.
> 
> Other highlights of the talk were that they are doing
> photo-lithography (this might be a few year old talk) on the scale of
> a third of a wavelength of the light they were using to do the
> lithography. That's just too cool. Also, that a constant for Intel

I don't think this is cool at all. Intel is already at 11 nm in
prototyping stage and there's really no easy way to tell the roadmap
to 6 nm and 4 nm is viable. We will only know for sure when they're
shipping. The buck definitely stops at 1 nm.

> over the years is that chips have always sold on the order of a
> billion dollars per acre. That's a fun way to think of it. He was also

This is another issue, as growing Si monocrystals isn't infitely
scalable either, and 450 mm wafers might be the last size we'll
be getting. So if you run out of real estate and shrink potential,
you're screwed. Photolitho is fundamentally a subtractive manufacturing
technology, and attempt to add layers will degrade underlying layers.

So you need a completely new manufacturing technology, which deposits
layers on top of layers in mild conditions, or actually goes real
3D with autoassembly from solution.

If such a technology were to smoothly take over in 2020 or thereabouts,
we would have it already working in the lab a decade ago. 

> talking about how they were getting quantum leaking through the
> substrate because it was so very thin. Two dimensional Moore's Law

Leakage is one thing, quantum effects another. Recent nanowire
work shows we can stay classical almost all the way down to 1 nm.

> will run out of steam around 2020, apparently, due to physical
> limitations related to the size of atoms.. but that there is always
> the third dimension to play with. Chips will undoubtedly have to start

Have you tried playing with the 3rd dimension? It's not easy.

> getting thicker and more complex in a third dimension if we are to
> continue the curve. Even new flat technologies based on something
> besides silicon dioxide won't help because atoms are atoms... the

We haven't been using SiO2 for a while, see high-k dielectric.

> third dimension is the only way out unless you can figure out how to
> use subatomic particles. 3D silicon seems easier than harnessing
> subatomic particles to me... but what do I know?

The only way you're going to touch the nucleus is via the spin.
I suggest that electron spintronics is much, much easier. See nitrogen
vacancy work in diamond, which is actually compatible with qubits
in solid state.


From eugen at leitl.org  Fri Mar 16 10:41:37 2012
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2012 11:41:37 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Atlantic article on human reengineering with very
	strong	reactions
In-Reply-To: <00e201cd0336$22bdbdf0$683939d0$@att.net>
References: <CAJX-7wVcrpNWs_yNp5q5TWh7e7t8eyZWisMhEt7OQ6zMH8naDQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4F5F294B.1080205@aleph.se>
 <CAPoR7a6Bv52-4DYdw4qXGJ1iOsZ9Z+eE9QmvoxB40JYcbDDPKw@mail.gmail.com>
 <1331712577.9755.YahooMailNeo@web164505.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
 <4F607724.5000802@aleph.se> <00a901cd01f4$eaea6410$c0bf2c30$@att.net>
 <20120314161018.GV9891@leitl.org>
 <CAPy8RwZf1A_pUAbgDt1gEc-bBQ41K-73893hqKZuDHtJAifRmg@mail.gmail.com>
 <00e201cd0336$22bdbdf0$683939d0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <20120316104137.GU9891@leitl.org>

On Thu, Mar 15, 2012 at 10:32:06PM -0700, spike wrote:

> Ja, but the problem is that everyone will not.  Some will ride in little
> slow half tons, some will just stay with the old tried and true Detroit V8.
> The Detroit is expensive to run, but there are some things it does very
> well.  It is fast, comfortable, carries a lot of apes, can be taken cross
> country, etc.  What we really need is a way to separate the two, in order to
> keep the lightweights safer.

Making fossil hydrocarbons more expensive (Europe is 9 USD/g) forces 
the downsize and infrastructure shifts. You can put a punitive tax on
dry curb weight for unit of ape transport for the really rich who
wouldn't mind cashing out 0.1 MEUR annually for the privilege.
And consider heavy haul, who should be paying two orders of magnitude
more for street wear.
  
> Do think about this problem, for it is one that governments really can help
> do.  Governments legitimately make traffic rules and build infrastructure.
> What we need is to divide major roads, and keep one side for the efficient
> light guys, the other for the old V8s.  It isn't clear exactly how to do

What we need is discourage pointless travel, and move mass transport off 
the roads.

> that, but try to envision your local road system done that way.  Imagine one
> side done in roads where the specs require a smoother surface.  It can be
> done with current technology, but it is more expensive to build and more
> expensive to maintain a road with a lower tolerance for anomalies.  But if

You might have noticed that several muncipalities have razed paved roads
and converted them back to dirt roads. Because they're out of money.

> we require the maximum road anomaly to be half what we currently require,
> then a wheel half the diameter would still give an acceptable ride.  A half
> diameter wheel would be about one eighth the weight and be more compatible
> with the overall design I envision.
>   
> We can do this, but the older bigger cars will pose a safety hazard to the
> new small guys.  We will need to resurface half of the roads and rethink
> maintenance.

If you look at the state of infrastructure in most of the Western world, we
cannot even keep it from unraveling. *Everybody* is broke.


From eugen at leitl.org  Fri Mar 16 10:52:23 2012
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2012 11:52:23 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Gordon Moore Quote, Extropy and Panspermia
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armjj=ATyusKefmRbAudLghKyv5_F_LG=ue0PK5vbnzKRew@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPy8RwYWBkTVMMoFAQezgO_SVimgHMqB88BxuT=gm1Tq3-TauQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armjj=ATyusKefmRbAudLghKyv5_F_LG=ue0PK5vbnzKRew@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120316105223.GW9891@leitl.org>

On Fri, Mar 16, 2012 at 09:06:58AM +0000, BillK wrote:

> The problem is our education system.  People just don't understand
> exponential growth.

The areas where linear semilog plots applies, for a while, until
they don't, are rather the exception than the rule. Most of them
couple into IT, which is a positive-feedback technology capable
of pushing itself and attached fields.



From spike66 at att.net  Fri Mar 16 12:57:27 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2012 05:57:27 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Atlantic article on human reengineering with very
	strong	reactions
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armh4Vqw4_svygtLiTdLgQHyAu+cbLgAGMxFsYhxtY6xMOA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJX-7wVcrpNWs_yNp5q5TWh7e7t8eyZWisMhEt7OQ6zMH8naDQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4F5F294B.1080205@aleph.se>
 <CAPoR7a6Bv52-4DYdw4qXGJ1iOsZ9Z+eE9QmvoxB40JYcbDDPKw@mail.gmail.com>
 <1331712577.9755.YahooMailNeo@web164505.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
 <4F607724.5000802@aleph.se> <00a901cd01f4$eaea6410$c0bf2c30$@att.net>
 <20120314161018.GV9891@leitl.org>
 <CAPy8RwZf1A_pUAbgDt1gEc-bBQ41K-73893hqKZuDHtJAifRmg@mail.gmail.com>
 <00e201cd0336$22bdbdf0$683939d0$@att.net>
 <CAL_armh4Vqw4_svygtLiTdLgQHyAu+cbLgAGMxFsYhxtY6xMOA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <013001cd0374$57ba76e0$072f64a0$@att.net>

>... On Behalf Of BillK
Subject: Re: [ExI] Atlantic article on human reengineering with very strong
reactions

On Fri, Mar 16, 2012 at 5:32 AM, spike  wrote:
>> Ja, but the problem is that everyone will not. ?Some will ride in 
> little slow half tons, some will just stay with the old tried and true
Detroit V8...
> We can do this, but the older bigger cars will pose a safety hazard to 
> the new small guys. ?We will need to resurface half of the roads and 
> rethink maintenance.


>... Minicars are not the vehicle of choice for 1,000 mile cross-country
trips. ;)

Exactly.  We have a notion of each person having a car that can do
everything.  This sends us to vehicles that are heavy, expensive and
thirsty.  An alternative would be having a single seater, then you rent a V8
if you really need to drive cross country.  We could create rental agencies
that use current cars, which could last for decades if used that way.

>...Minicars are modern and have better designed accident protection than
any ten-year old vehicle... BillK

Granted, but what I really have in mind is not yet on the road.  All current
cars are big by the standards I have in mind, including the Cooper Mini and
the others.  The Cooper would be an example of a car still too heavy and
fast to be allowed on the divided roads I have in mind.  We currently have
the technology to build cars that get 100 miles per gallon (don't know what
that is in metric, 2 liters per 100 km?)  No new technology is needed.  We
just can't run those safely on current roads, for they are too light and too
slow.  If we can figure out a means of keeping them out of the way of V8
drivers, we can save buttloads of fuel.  They would be faster than bicycles,
and offer more weather protection.  They would be low cost and low risk of
theft, low environmental impact because they wouldn't require a lot of
steel.  They would require most roads to be repaved, with most surface
anomalies reworked.  The expense of that would be high, but the payback time
short.

spike






From eugen at leitl.org  Fri Mar 16 13:32:01 2012
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2012 14:32:01 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Atlantic article on human reengineering with very
	strong	reactions
In-Reply-To: <013001cd0374$57ba76e0$072f64a0$@att.net>
References: <4F5F294B.1080205@aleph.se>
 <CAPoR7a6Bv52-4DYdw4qXGJ1iOsZ9Z+eE9QmvoxB40JYcbDDPKw@mail.gmail.com>
 <1331712577.9755.YahooMailNeo@web164505.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
 <4F607724.5000802@aleph.se> <00a901cd01f4$eaea6410$c0bf2c30$@att.net>
 <20120314161018.GV9891@leitl.org>
 <CAPy8RwZf1A_pUAbgDt1gEc-bBQ41K-73893hqKZuDHtJAifRmg@mail.gmail.com>
 <00e201cd0336$22bdbdf0$683939d0$@att.net>
 <CAL_armh4Vqw4_svygtLiTdLgQHyAu+cbLgAGMxFsYhxtY6xMOA@mail.gmail.com>
 <013001cd0374$57ba76e0$072f64a0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <20120316133201.GL9891@leitl.org>

On Fri, Mar 16, 2012 at 05:57:27AM -0700, spike wrote:

> >... Minicars are not the vehicle of choice for 1,000 mile cross-country
> trips. ;)

While I enjoy an occasional megameter by car to look at the countryside
the saner (and more risk-averse) folks take a train or fly. The size of 
the car is not the issue, it's how much space each occupant has.
 
> Exactly.  We have a notion of each person having a car that can do
> everything.  This sends us to vehicles that are heavy, expensive and
> thirsty.  An alternative would be having a single seater, then you rent a V8

I'd much prefer telepresence platform rental for everything but 
vacations. In fact, a lot of vacations are about sightseeing, and a
drone can go places faster than ground-dwelling monkeys.

> if you really need to drive cross country.  We could create rental agencies
> that use current cars, which could last for decades if used that way.

Many people in cities don't have a car themselves but use car-sharing
services.
 
> >...Minicars are modern and have better designed accident protection than
> any ten-year old vehicle... BillK
> 
> Granted, but what I really have in mind is not yet on the road.  All current
> cars are big by the standards I have in mind, including the Cooper Mini and

The problem is less the size, it's the weight.

> the others.  The Cooper would be an example of a car still too heavy and
> fast to be allowed on the divided roads I have in mind.  We currently have

I would not make cars slower than 130 km/h cruise, and up to 200 km/h
for brief sprints.

> the technology to build cars that get 100 miles per gallon (don't know what
> that is in metric, 2 liters per 100 km?)  No new technology is needed.  We

We have the technology to go 0.9 l/100 km.

> just can't run those safely on current roads, for they are too light and too
> slow.  If we can figure out a means of keeping them out of the way of V8

The safest cars are F1, they're made from carbon composite and weigh
~500 kg.

> drivers, we can save buttloads of fuel.  They would be faster than bicycles,
> and offer more weather protection.  They would be low cost and low risk of

Given that a pedelec in-hub does 300 W easily, and kW in ultralites
goes a long way a recumbent-type ultralite with aerodynamic shell would
be a speed demon and weigh some 30-50 kg.

> theft, low environmental impact because they wouldn't require a lot of
> steel.  They would require most roads to be repaved, with most surface

Steel doesn't really have a bright future in light vehicles.

> anomalies reworked.  The expense of that would be high, but the payback time
> short.

Nothing will be happening in infrastructure. If anything, decaying infrastructure
will make autopiloted personal VTOL electroflight worthwhile.


From msd001 at gmail.com  Fri Mar 16 16:06:58 2012
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2012 12:06:58 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Atlantic article on human reengineering with very strong
	reactions
In-Reply-To: <20120316133201.GL9891@leitl.org>
References: <4F5F294B.1080205@aleph.se>
 <CAPoR7a6Bv52-4DYdw4qXGJ1iOsZ9Z+eE9QmvoxB40JYcbDDPKw@mail.gmail.com>
 <1331712577.9755.YahooMailNeo@web164505.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
 <4F607724.5000802@aleph.se>
 <00a901cd01f4$eaea6410$c0bf2c30$@att.net>
 <20120314161018.GV9891@leitl.org>
 <CAPy8RwZf1A_pUAbgDt1gEc-bBQ41K-73893hqKZuDHtJAifRmg@mail.gmail.com>
 <00e201cd0336$22bdbdf0$683939d0$@att.net>
 <CAL_armh4Vqw4_svygtLiTdLgQHyAu+cbLgAGMxFsYhxtY6xMOA@mail.gmail.com>
 <013001cd0374$57ba76e0$072f64a0$@att.net>
 <20120316133201.GL9891@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <CAOJFdbJc9CGeo4cCfD9cALvx1yRCux3BZHq95gVF9-L=vjHROw@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Mar 16, 2012 at 9:32 AM, Eugen Leitl <eugen at leitl.org> wrote:
> Nothing will be happening in infrastructure. If anything, decaying infrastructure
> will make autopiloted personal VTOL electroflight worthwhile.

If we're looking for government to help in this "plan" the solution
must be something government can do (and do well):  raise taxes on
heavy vehicles.  We pay to keep them registered, we pay more each year
for the same car while the "standard" weight drops and eventually
it'll be too costly to operate the M1A1 (er Escalade/et al.) on public
roads.  Not working fast enough?  Waive the registration fee
altogether for cars at or below the goal weight.

This is a case where it's hard to make people get on board with a good
idea but we might be able to convince people to change if it
costs/hurts more to remain with the bad idea.


From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 16 22:23:44 2012
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2012 15:23:44 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Coalition Wants Moratorium on 'Extreme' Synthetic Bio
	Businesses
References: <CA+LBAbQjHYukERWGHeghBBAyJ+_gG-bQz_KBeD5g+Xum5z0w7Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <1331756749.88271.YahooMailNeo@web164503.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
 <CAPy8RwZwk+8Xm20pQ++KybNoGTt=NEjfq4fDTWmBDYW+RaO6EQ@mail.gmail.com> 
Message-ID: <1331936624.75162.YahooMailNeo@web164503.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>





________________________________
From: Kelly Anderson <kellycoinguy at gmail.com>
To: The Avantguardian <avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com>; ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> 
Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 8:56 PM
Subject: Re: [ExI] Coalition Wants Moratorium on 'Extreme' Synthetic Bio Businesses

>You only need a few members to join up... I'm game! Shall we branch
>>off of pastafanarianism? :-)
>
>
>Here is link:
>
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/transhumanreligion/
>
>The original founders and I were aiming for something a little more useful to our members than?a pointed joke. But who knows? Maybe we should have went the route of discordianism or pastafarianism.?In any case it would be nice to have first amendment religious?protections for transhumanist?activities that we are being persecuted over?like cryopreservation, DIY bio, self-prescribing drugs, and all sorts of stuff.
>
>Why is it that a?JW or CS man can, in this country,?legally force a doctor to watch the man's minor child die under?the doctor's?care?because the child's?religion prohibits a medical treatment that could save that child's life but?Spike can't legally take Bexarotene without illegible written permission from a doctor?
>
>I imagine that cryopreservation teams?get?hassled more?coming into a dying patient's hospital room?than a Catholic priest coming to administer last rites would.
>
>Does that seem fair to anybody?
>
>Stuart LaForge
>
>?
>"The state that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards, and its fighting by fools." -Thucydides.
>
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From jrd1415 at gmail.com  Sat Mar 17 02:28:25 2012
From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2012 19:28:25 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Atlantic article on human reengineering with very strong
	reactions
In-Reply-To: <CAPy8RwZf1A_pUAbgDt1gEc-bBQ41K-73893hqKZuDHtJAifRmg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJX-7wVcrpNWs_yNp5q5TWh7e7t8eyZWisMhEt7OQ6zMH8naDQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4F5F294B.1080205@aleph.se>
 <CAPoR7a6Bv52-4DYdw4qXGJ1iOsZ9Z+eE9QmvoxB40JYcbDDPKw@mail.gmail.com>
 <1331712577.9755.YahooMailNeo@web164505.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
 <4F607724.5000802@aleph.se>
 <00a901cd01f4$eaea6410$c0bf2c30$@att.net>
 <20120314161018.GV9891@leitl.org>
 <CAPy8RwZf1A_pUAbgDt1gEc-bBQ41K-73893hqKZuDHtJAifRmg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHUTwkPz1HGvGk7NoO+Qqjk2KgwBkgC1sE34weTCUZbiqXMPVg@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Mar 15, 2012 at 9:12 PM, Kelly Anderson <kellycoinguy at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 10:10 AM, Eugen Leitl <eugen at leitl.org> wrote:
>>...subjective perception of more safety.
>
> I'm having trouble with the "subjective perception" of more safety....

<snippage>

> When competing with a 3 ton SUV, and you are in a half ton tin can of
> an ape hauler, You experience six times the acceleration
> (deceleration) as the other guy. It's just simple physics. I don't see
> what's subjective about that.

What I think Gene may have been getting at is like, you know, just
before then,....just before you experience six times the
acceleration,... you have this perception of safety.  Comforting.
Subjective.

YMMV.

Best, Jeff Davis

           "Everything you see I owe to spaghetti."
                                  Sophia Loren


From pharos at gmail.com  Sat Mar 17 14:28:56 2012
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2012 14:28:56 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Bem psychic experiment replication failure
Message-ID: <CAL_armjn59Os3V6XCGCgFYJtcKOvwWQHW-tCxqpfp2eET_5HsQ@mail.gmail.com>

Slashdot draws attention to a news article that attempts to replicate
Bem's psychic experiments have failed to produce any psychic results.

<http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2012/03/14/controversial-psychic-ability-claim-doesnt-hold-up-in-new-experiments/>

Quote:
Wiseman has a registry of attempts to replicate Bem's work and has
plans to analyze all of the data together, Ritchie said. One big
problem facing the work is reluctance on the part of journals to
publish studies with negative findings, especially those that are
replications.

When Ritchie and his colleagues submitted their paper to the Journal
of Personality and Social Psychology, the journal that had originally
published Bem's work, they were told that the journal does not publish
replications.

"There's a real problem with finding shocking findings and then not
being interested in publishing replications," Ritchie said.
----------------------


BillK


From lubkin at unreasonable.com  Sat Mar 17 21:51:47 2012
From: lubkin at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin)
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2012 17:51:47 -0400
Subject: [ExI] The NSA's new data center
Message-ID: <201203172251.q2HMphhn024879@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

Whatever your position, this piece is a must-read. The author is Jim
Bamford, a former naval intelligence analyst who's written three
impressive books on the NSA (The Puzzle Palace, Body of Secrets,
and The Shadow Factory).

Beyond the political and social implications, it's just interesting to
think about how to cope with yottabytes of data.

http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2012/03/ff_nsadatacenter/all/1
The NSA Is Building the Country's Biggest Spy Center (Watch What You Say)

You can hear Bamford on C-Span, discussing his books, in panel
discussions, and testifying to Congress.

http://www.c-spanvideo.org/jamesbamford


-- David.



From mbb386 at main.nc.us  Sun Mar 18 02:25:55 2012
From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB)
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2012 22:25:55 -0400
Subject: [ExI] The NSA's new data center
In-Reply-To: <201203172251.q2HMphhn024879@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <201203172251.q2HMphhn024879@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <f8672b058ea9c936d9a37edc4ca2a791.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>

Thank you for posting this. Very interesting.  :(

Regards,
MB

http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2012/03/ff_nsadatacenter/all/1



From spike66 at att.net  Sun Mar 18 04:41:01 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2012 21:41:01 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Jaw-dropping CWRU Alzheimer's breakthrough?
In-Reply-To: <00ca01cd030f$cdc7ab60$69570220$@att.net>
References: <mailman.466.1330314863.825.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <1330346071.48236.YahooMailNeo@web132106.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
 <00f101ccf565$40f7deb0$c2e79c10$@att.net>
 <CAPy8RwbyZWVURXyni9gaT+PcpzqL94u2aJ9nAMzo_GpPs-7q-w@mail.gmail.com>
 <4F51604C.20000@mac.com> <00ca01ccf8f4$aca75d60$05f61820$@att.net>
 <003401ccf951$3bb77dd0$b3267970$@att.net>
 <CAAc1gFjgL9sMrSHvFxfjuGkC9HZhTuDz_f8p266c1YMrWZAHEQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <007c01ccf978$80167950$80436bf0$@att.net>
 <CAAc1gFirKEeQknUWvYjeTbyfCO8-cYNyWutJPSbdUm0z1kmRBg@mail.gmail.com>
 <000501cd0261$665dd0c0$33197240$@att.net>
 <CAHUTwkO3nD4r=i1sLtXNYV3G_YSX5GAH9+V2+M6dN+9WZZ=s+g@mail.gmail.com>
 <00a401cd02f3$192f6f60$4b8e4e20$@att.net>
 <1331849648.23359.YahooMailNeo@web164504.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
 <00ca01cd030f$cdc7ab60$69570220$@att.net>
Message-ID: <007401cd04c1$52ad49e0$f807dda0$@att.net>

>... On Behalf Of spike
...

>>...It does carry more risk but how desperate is the situation?  Stuart
LaForge

>...Eeesh, I don't know Avant.  I am waaaay outside my area of expertise
here...spike



OK damn, oy vey.  A big study was just released in a credible looking site
called The Oncology Report, which says that they have a paradoxical result
in a long term study of those taking bexarotene for T-cell lymphoma, for
which it was originally approved.  Comparing groups who received bex to
those who did not, patients who received the drug responded positively, but
it had an overall negative impact on survival.  This result singled out
those who had mycosis fungoides, which is a majority of cutaneous T-cell
lymphoma cases.  

This is bad, but all is not lost.  I have been waiting for data in
Alzheimer's patients who are experimenting with this stuff, and in the
meantime, I am seriously thinking of buying some of this from the British
company, which claims they can ship me 100 of these tablets legally, then
grinding same and dissolving in alcohol, and giving a smaller dose than
would be used for cancer patients to a family member.  So if bexarotene has
risks (it does, we knew that already) then this lower dose notion might be
the way to go, as soon as I can determine how it fights against the thyroid
medications.

spike



From spike66 at att.net  Sun Mar 18 05:08:55 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2012 22:08:55 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Jaw-dropping CWRU Alzheimer's breakthrough?
In-Reply-To: <007401cd04c1$52ad49e0$f807dda0$@att.net>
References: <mailman.466.1330314863.825.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <1330346071.48236.YahooMailNeo@web132106.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
 <00f101ccf565$40f7deb0$c2e79c10$@att.net>
 <CAPy8RwbyZWVURXyni9gaT+PcpzqL94u2aJ9nAMzo_GpPs-7q-w@mail.gmail.com>
 <4F51604C.20000@mac.com> <00ca01ccf8f4$aca75d60$05f61820$@att.net>
 <003401ccf951$3bb77dd0$b3267970$@att.net>
 <CAAc1gFjgL9sMrSHvFxfjuGkC9HZhTuDz_f8p266c1YMrWZAHEQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <007c01ccf978$80167950$80436bf0$@att.net>
 <CAAc1gFirKEeQknUWvYjeTbyfCO8-cYNyWutJPSbdUm0z1kmRBg@mail.gmail.com>
 <000501cd0261$665dd0c0$33197240$@att.net>
 <CAHUTwkO3nD4r=i1sLtXNYV3G_YSX5GAH9+V2+M6dN+9WZZ=s+g@mail.gmail.com>
 <00a401cd02f3$192f6f60$4b8e4e20$@att.net>
 <1331849648.23359.YahooMailNeo@web164504.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
 <00ca01cd030f$cdc7ab60$69570220$@att.net>
 <007401cd04c1$52ad49e0$f807dda0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <007801cd04c5$37e95780$a7bc0680$@att.net>



>...OK damn, oy vey.  A big study was just released in a credible looking
site called The Oncology Report...spike


A second site which I know to be credible has announced the results of this
study:

http://www.skinandallergynews.com/news/medical-dermatology/single-article/be
xarotene-confers-no-survival-benefit-for-mycosis-fungoides/ead99788fa.html

Bexarotene may help your skin cancer but kill you for other reasons.  {8-[

spike



From pharos at gmail.com  Sun Mar 18 06:40:57 2012
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2012 06:40:57 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Jaw-dropping CWRU Alzheimer's breakthrough?
In-Reply-To: <007801cd04c5$37e95780$a7bc0680$@att.net>
References: <mailman.466.1330314863.825.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <1330346071.48236.YahooMailNeo@web132106.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
 <00f101ccf565$40f7deb0$c2e79c10$@att.net>
 <CAPy8RwbyZWVURXyni9gaT+PcpzqL94u2aJ9nAMzo_GpPs-7q-w@mail.gmail.com>
 <4F51604C.20000@mac.com> <00ca01ccf8f4$aca75d60$05f61820$@att.net>
 <003401ccf951$3bb77dd0$b3267970$@att.net>
 <CAAc1gFjgL9sMrSHvFxfjuGkC9HZhTuDz_f8p266c1YMrWZAHEQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <007c01ccf978$80167950$80436bf0$@att.net>
 <CAAc1gFirKEeQknUWvYjeTbyfCO8-cYNyWutJPSbdUm0z1kmRBg@mail.gmail.com>
 <000501cd0261$665dd0c0$33197240$@att.net>
 <CAHUTwkO3nD4r=i1sLtXNYV3G_YSX5GAH9+V2+M6dN+9WZZ=s+g@mail.gmail.com>
 <00a401cd02f3$192f6f60$4b8e4e20$@att.net>
 <1331849648.23359.YahooMailNeo@web164504.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
 <00ca01cd030f$cdc7ab60$69570220$@att.net>
 <007401cd04c1$52ad49e0$f807dda0$@att.net>
 <007801cd04c5$37e95780$a7bc0680$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAL_armgOP7M3xuYs-5ekYXW_euZaY0Tw6vreqFLTcBq8RwF=OQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Mar 18, 2012 at 5:08 AM, spike wrote:
> A second site which I know to be credible has announced the results of this
> study:
>
> http://www.skinandallergynews.com/news/medical-dermatology/single-article/be
> xarotene-confers-no-survival-benefit-for-mycosis-fungoides/ead99788fa.html
>
> Bexarotene may help your skin cancer but kill you for other reasons. ?{8-[
>
>


I think you will find that doctors have become more cautious about
using chemotherapy in the elderly population. Obviously they don't
want to deny treatment that might help a patient, but the elderly
present a complicated decision process.

Most cancer drugs are tested on younger patients, with only the cancer
making them ill. So the side-effects are likely to be more severe in
old people. You might be surprised at how little research has been
done specifically on older patients. Old people are usually more
frail, with a weaker immune system and often have other medical
problems and many other medication interactions to take into account.
Quality of life becomes more significant.

For example, see:
<http://www.cancerforum.org.au/Issues/2008/March/Forum/Chemotherapy_in_the_elderly.htm>

You might be presented with decisions like - either no treatment and
death in a year or aggressive treatment (expensive), really bad side
effects and living in sickness and pain for two years. And there is no
guarantee that chemotherapy will extend survival. It doesn't always
work.

A survey of doctors recently showed that the majority of them would
refuse to have aggressive treatment in end of life circumstances. It
is a very difficult decision to make that everybody must face for
themselves.

Best wishes, BillK



From eugen at leitl.org  Sun Mar 18 10:42:57 2012
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2012 11:42:57 +0100
Subject: [ExI] The NSA's new data center
In-Reply-To: <f8672b058ea9c936d9a37edc4ca2a791.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
References: <201203172251.q2HMphhn024879@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <f8672b058ea9c936d9a37edc4ca2a791.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
Message-ID: <20120318104257.GQ9891@leitl.org>

On Sat, Mar 17, 2012 at 10:25:55PM -0400, MB wrote:
> Thank you for posting this. Very interesting.  :(
> 
> Regards,
> MB
> 
> http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2012/03/ff_nsadatacenter/all/1

Ob ttech plug: such things come over http://postbiota.org/pipermail/list.rss
which is an RSS feed of http://postbiota.org/mailman/listinfo/tt


From spike66 at att.net  Sun Mar 18 14:27:00 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2012 07:27:00 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Jaw-dropping CWRU Alzheimer's breakthrough?
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armgOP7M3xuYs-5ekYXW_euZaY0Tw6vreqFLTcBq8RwF=OQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.466.1330314863.825.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <1330346071.48236.YahooMailNeo@web132106.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
 <00f101ccf565$40f7deb0$c2e79c10$@att.net>
 <CAPy8RwbyZWVURXyni9gaT+PcpzqL94u2aJ9nAMzo_GpPs-7q-w@mail.gmail.com>
 <4F51604C.20000@mac.com> <00ca01ccf8f4$aca75d60$05f61820$@att.net>
 <003401ccf951$3bb77dd0$b3267970$@att.net>
 <CAAc1gFjgL9sMrSHvFxfjuGkC9HZhTuDz_f8p266c1YMrWZAHEQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <007c01ccf978$80167950$80436bf0$@att.net>
 <CAAc1gFirKEeQknUWvYjeTbyfCO8-cYNyWutJPSbdUm0z1kmRBg@mail.gmail.com>
 <000501cd0261$665dd0c0$33197240$@att.net>
 <CAHUTwkO3nD4r=i1sLtXNYV3G_YSX5GAH9+V2+M6dN+9WZZ=s+g@mail.gmail.com>
 <00a401cd02f3$192f6f60$4b8e4e20$@att.net>
 <1331849648.23359.YahooMailNeo@web164504.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
 <00ca01cd030f$cdc7ab60$69570220$@att.net>
 <007401cd04c1$52ad49e0$f807dda0$@att.net>
 <007801cd04c5$37e95780$a7bc0680$@att.net>
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Message-ID: <002701cd0513$2e850740$8b8f15c0$@att.net>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of BillK

>>
http://www.skinandallergynews.com/news/medical-dermatology/single-article/be
xarotene-confers-no-survival-benefit-for-mycosis-fungoides/ead99788fa.html

>
>> Bexarotene may help your skin cancer but kill you for other reasons. ?
>> {8-[  spike
>
>


>...I think you will find that doctors have become more cautious about using
chemotherapy in the elderly population. Obviously they don't want to deny
treatment that might help a patient, but the elderly present a complicated
decision process...
A survey of doctors recently showed that the majority of them would refuse
to have aggressive treatment in end of life circumstances. It is a very
difficult decision to make that everybody must face for themselves.  Best
wishes, BillK

_______________________________________________

Oy thanks BillK for that insight.  I hadn't thought of it in those terms,
but it makes sense.

Yesterday we learned that my family member's doctor is closing up shop and
leaving town.  So in that sense we are back to square 1.  I didn't get a
chance to talk to her and ask why, but I know she was swamped with requests
for bexarotene off label, and was generally turning down requests.

Regarding chemotherapy, a family would need to estimate growth rates of
cancer, balance the risk that the chemotherapy will kill the patient (I know
personally of two cases where it did in older patients) decide on the best
way to go.  But Alzheimer's add a whole nuther layer of complication,
because it isn't clear how you get informed consent from the patient.  For
some reason the symptoms of Alzheimer's varies greatly with time.  Some days
the patient seems almost normal, other days, she is lost in her own home.
We plan a family gathering in three weeks to discuss strategy.

spike












From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Sun Mar 18 15:46:26 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2012 16:46:26 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Cheap Source of Protein was Re: Pink Slime
In-Reply-To: <007101cd02c1$7a731b00$6f595100$@att.net>
References: <1331585379.63556.YahooMailNeo@web164506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
 <CAPoR7a59hdSdeh=bWmavnqQ2zq32dkYMOu1tgp+q1tkG3UwnRA@mail.gmail.com>
 <00f101cd014d$f4cf2c60$de6d8520$@att.net>
 <CAM5aL2fG18Xv-4TUKKps5H0uhT2zUpHK619XHZ4hzktiQMCxqA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOJFdbLqtbyV4xx6z06jCv0_THTYtLOVRH0P4yrdmCxZSL0OXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <1331694594.19109.YahooMailNeo@web164506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
 <001e01cd0199$f1731e90$d4595bb0$@att.net>
 <4F606D7F.5080909@aleph.se>
 <D35AD130-CE21-43E7-942F-FBB6B02D3F76@gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2fDPRzC=iddBreba9j=J_xMRwfBkBqOFb2tWa+4WkTXPg@mail.gmail.com>
 <005c01cd021b$6fdadf80$4f909e80$@att.net> <4F61243F.70105@aleph.se>
 <CAPoR7a64XzyN983OJwW1W7Q0CKPKMKe_AJnqdKX40cG-iq5f_Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <007101cd02c1$7a731b00$6f595100$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a5SbjWXgrRyab6a1LLgfPg10fV2Xj-nVg+3-A20Z_Jw2A@mail.gmail.com>

2012/3/15 spike <spike66 at att.net>

> Ja.  For most moderns, if you gave us a basket of wheat and a sack of
> potatoes, we would be near starvation before we figured out what to do with
> them.
>

Even more importantly, we would be actually starving if we knew what to do
with them, but could not do it. A naked man in a camp of wheat is going to
die, AFAIK.


> Nearly all bugs are edible: our stomachs know what to do.
>

Does it? This is not a rhetorical question. For instance, no matter how
much you may like the vampire myth, mammal blood is not poisonous in
general for us, but cannot be digested unless processed one way or another.

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Sun Mar 18 15:54:07 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2012 16:54:07 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Pink Slime
In-Reply-To: <CAPy8RwZB+c0Sc_tjMK1JH-tZJhqUEatKs=YU6Tw+PwZGcR+LUA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1331585379.63556.YahooMailNeo@web164506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
 <CAPoR7a59hdSdeh=bWmavnqQ2zq32dkYMOu1tgp+q1tkG3UwnRA@mail.gmail.com>
 <00f101cd014d$f4cf2c60$de6d8520$@att.net>
 <CAPoR7a5VBZ-EXffxd2o0NdZmGAYzEYf2QAcV0OB9Bk_x0-CjAg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPy8RwZB+c0Sc_tjMK1JH-tZJhqUEatKs=YU6Tw+PwZGcR+LUA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a7N293w0g+8uTCpkZ5BDN7G9Q5y4xT7JN867fJax4scvQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 16 March 2012 01:49, Kelly Anderson <kellycoinguy at gmail.com> wrote:

> 2012/3/14 Stefano Vaj <stefano.vaj at gmail.com>:
> > "Colour" should be easy enough, and if we can engineer the production of
> > entire, structured body organs for, say, transplant, foie gras should
> not be
> > much more difficult than a human liver... :-)
>
> Makes you wonder if someday there won't be quite the same prohibition
> against cannibalism as there is today. Would you eat factory produced
> meat based on human DNA? Of all the human societal prohibitions, that
> against cannibalism is one of the most universal. Brave new world
> indeed.
>

The cannibalism is far from universal, but it must be said that unless in
very specific circumstances cannibalism has a more ritual than nutritional
meaning even in cultures practising it.

As such it is not very unusual in other species, but the real rationale
behind the taboo is that there is obviously a perfect compatibility of any
infective or parasitic disease carried by the meat and your own organism.

Interestingly, pork taboos have often been justified with an analogous
albeit much lower compatibility of human and suine "ecologies", which is
exactly the reason OTOH why pigs were often considered for xenotransplants.

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Sun Mar 18 15:41:58 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2012 16:41:58 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Right to medical information
In-Reply-To: <CAPy8Rwb21EMddMsM-rKEsVTO05FGthdYszqaC4HPfoVuM8M02g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL+RtPe+LDQmbX0ZCz+3jrrN7pkON9ay03=Ed3qvvd2cyc2TBA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPy8Rwb21EMddMsM-rKEsVTO05FGthdYszqaC4HPfoVuM8M02g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a5nK+uG8-5Q_Ke-qXWmnW91ApNx_AjhJCc36HLpwVnzZQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 16 March 2012 01:45, Kelly Anderson <kellycoinguy at gmail.com> wrote:

> For those who didn't read the article, there is a law winding its way
> through the Kansas legislature allowing doctors who are opposed to
> abortion to "opt out" of telling women information about their coming
> baby that might lead the woman to get an abortion.
>

Let me think.

Should I be allowed as a lawyer, if I feel a deep respect for the
sacredness of the life of corporate entities since conception, to "opt out"
of telling a client that due diligence investigations revealed the target
in prospective corporate deal to be a can of worms?

That's an interesting concept. The client could not blame me for any breach
of my fiduciary duties, because after all I would do that in the service of
a Higher Justice... :-)

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From atymes at gmail.com  Sun Mar 18 17:27:55 2012
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2012 10:27:55 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Right to medical information
In-Reply-To: <CAPoR7a5nK+uG8-5Q_Ke-qXWmnW91ApNx_AjhJCc36HLpwVnzZQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL+RtPe+LDQmbX0ZCz+3jrrN7pkON9ay03=Ed3qvvd2cyc2TBA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPy8Rwb21EMddMsM-rKEsVTO05FGthdYszqaC4HPfoVuM8M02g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a5nK+uG8-5Q_Ke-qXWmnW91ApNx_AjhJCc36HLpwVnzZQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNSh5f_q_gO9eA_M2GgsVc=JFzzB+7=RD10Ondk9ViTTwQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Mar 18, 2012 at 8:41 AM, Stefano Vaj <stefano.vaj at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 16 March 2012 01:45, Kelly Anderson <kellycoinguy at gmail.com> wrote:
>> For those who didn't read the article, there is a law winding its way
>> through the Kansas legislature allowing doctors who are opposed to
>> abortion to "opt out" of telling women information about their coming
>> baby that might lead the woman to get an abortion.
>
> Let me think.
>
> Should I be allowed as a lawyer, if I feel a deep respect for the sacredness
> of the life of corporate entities since conception, to "opt out" of telling
> a client that due diligence investigations revealed the target in
> prospective corporate deal to be a can of worms?
>
> That's an interesting concept. The client could not blame me for any breach
> of my fiduciary duties, because after all I would do that in the service of
> a Higher Justice... :-)

Isn't this already happening, in many cases?  Although the actual cited
reason tends to be because identifying the deal as a can of worms is
complex and uncertain enough that any human being - even a trained
professional with all the relevant data - could reasonably have
misdiagnosed.  Officially, that is.  (Unofficially, the reason is more
often, "non-yes-men don't keep this job".)


From spike66 at att.net  Sun Mar 18 19:06:53 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2012 12:06:53 -0700
Subject: [ExI] h+ in smithsonian
Message-ID: <007b01cd053a$4869fcc0$d93df640$@att.net>

Eeewww, ick, we are in Smithsonian.  I feel so. mainstream, yuk.

 

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/How-to-Become-the-Engineers-of-
Our-Own-Evolution.html?utm_source=smithsonianfuturism
<http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/How-to-Become-the-Engineers-of
-Our-Own-Evolution.html?utm_source=smithsonianfuturism&utm_medium=email&utm_
campaign=201203-futurism> &utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=201203-futurism

 

I feel the need to do something really odd, just to maintain my geek status.

 

spike

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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Sun Mar 18 19:25:46 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2012 20:25:46 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Eliminate people to reduce 'warming' and 'save Earth?"
In-Reply-To: <CAPy8RwbJ_hX8nbF0UxgE0r1Z5nsE-w64qs6vKYSDAtO2mm6y8A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEUzo3KL3k0A0BqoOMgt=RAyJ-Q_biiC9uwOkhVFRtXHC5gVkA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACMJz981fh+z2iqFeqP4M5LHKP3VB6KVnC=iqPpqyb3G56N2mw@mail.gmail.com>
 <1331679110.30308.YahooMailNeo@web164504.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
 <CAPy8RwbJ_hX8nbF0UxgE0r1Z5nsE-w64qs6vKYSDAtO2mm6y8A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a7oHuFqzX2dZdjfFLz9aV3pF86apyttax4C847EMXt6Tg@mail.gmail.com>

On 16 March 2012 02:28, Kelly Anderson <kellycoinguy at gmail.com> wrote:

> Serious question... would that result in you being subjected to many
> years in prison or capital punishment under Sharia law?
>

Depends. Birth control or abortion is not a big deal in Iran, even though
the country went into a baby boom after the end of the war with Iraq.

Let us not confuse our fundamentalists with their own. :-)

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 18 22:15:36 2012
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2012 15:15:36 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Right to medical information
In-Reply-To: <CAPy8Rwb21EMddMsM-rKEsVTO05FGthdYszqaC4HPfoVuM8M02g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL+RtPe+LDQmbX0ZCz+3jrrN7pkON9ay03=Ed3qvvd2cyc2TBA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPy8Rwb21EMddMsM-rKEsVTO05FGthdYszqaC4HPfoVuM8M02g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1332108936.40618.YahooMailNeo@web164505.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

>________________________________
>From: Kelly Anderson <kellycoinguy at gmail.com>
>To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> 
>Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 5:45 PM
>Subject: Re: [ExI] Right to medical information
>
>2012/3/15 Giovanni Santostasi <gsantostasi at gmail.com>:
>> How this is possible? Right to medical information should be sacred:
>>
>> https://www.aclu.org/blog/reproductive-freedom/kansas-pregnant-women-little-lie-your-doctor-wont-hurt-you
>>
>> Giovanni
>
>Damn, Giovanni, this is pretty stinking frightening!!! Gives a whole
>new meaning to , "I don't think we're in Kansas anymore", in that
>Kansas has now become the domain of Oz.
>
>For those who didn't read the article, there is a law winding its way
>through the Kansas legislature allowing doctors who are opposed to
>abortion to "opt out" of telling women information about their coming
>baby that might lead the woman to get an abortion. Said information
>coming from an ultrasound or probably other procedures as well. Why
>even have the procedure if you can't trust the information!?! Even
>Mormon women sometimes abort babies with severe birth defects with a
>wink and a nod from the religious authorities. I'm shocked, absolutely
>shocked! I hope this is some kind of bizarre hoax, or that this bill
>hasn't a prayer... of course it is Kansas... land of intelligent
>design.

So the question I have is?can?a woman?choose not to pay?for the test that the doctor opts out of telling her the results of? I mean medical tests are already over-priced to begin with for what amounts to a small amount of data. If a doctor can deny you that small amount of data that you are paying dearly for, isn't that fraud or breach of contract? Furthermore does the doctor actually have to state ,"I do not desire to disclose your test results." Or can the doctor tell?you a?bold faced lie of "your baby is fine" when the baby has down's syndrome.
?
One consequence is that in Kansas one will never know if your OB/Gyn is pro-life or simply incompetent.
?
?

Stuart LaForge


"The state that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards, and its fighting by fools." -Thucydides.



From atymes at gmail.com  Sun Mar 18 22:46:40 2012
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2012 15:46:40 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Right to medical information
In-Reply-To: <1332108936.40618.YahooMailNeo@web164505.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <CAL+RtPe+LDQmbX0ZCz+3jrrN7pkON9ay03=Ed3qvvd2cyc2TBA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPy8Rwb21EMddMsM-rKEsVTO05FGthdYszqaC4HPfoVuM8M02g@mail.gmail.com>
 <1332108936.40618.YahooMailNeo@web164505.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNSZW8rdYOABK2qGnsVYo1hf1OkabxEYCrCJH9SJYKS1Dw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Mar 18, 2012 at 3:15 PM, The Avantguardian
<avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> One consequence is that in Kansas one will never know if your OB/Gyn is pro-life or simply incompetent.

Or to conflate the two.  An ob/gyn who cares not for the mother's
health so long as the baby is delivered, is an ob/gyn whose
customers die more often.  From a strictly economic view, that
can be bad for the hospital, though in practice the actual effect
of this may be smaller than other considerations.


From jrd1415 at gmail.com  Sun Mar 18 23:09:52 2012
From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis)
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2012 16:09:52 -0700
Subject: [ExI] h+ in smithsonian
In-Reply-To: <007b01cd053a$4869fcc0$d93df640$@att.net>
References: <007b01cd053a$4869fcc0$d93df640$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAHUTwkPWyj9TgBpi9-6Aeu_1wC-7omzK0K1vcwm9gS_8EPFrGQ@mail.gmail.com>

2012/3/18 spike <spike66 at att.net>:

> http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/How-to-Become-the-Engineers-of-Our-Own-Evolution.html?utm_source=smithsonianfuturism&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=201203-futurism

>From the article:

"...Transhumanists say we are morally obligated to help the human race
transcend its biological limits..."

How many agree with this?  The moral obligation part.  Feels a bit
evangelical to me, a bit pushy, a bit intrusive, but that's just me.
No doubt there's a range of views re the obligatory nature of helping
others or ***ALL*** humanity to transcend.

I'm perfectly happy to let the rest of humanity choose for themselves
whether to enhance or not.  Actually, as a personal freedom issue, I
support those who choose to live "natural", age naturally, and die
naturally, to do so.  Call me selfish, but I'd prefer that these
traditionalists age gracefully and die peacefully, and in doing so,
lighten the Luddite load.

Other opinions?

Best Jeff Davis

        "Everything's hard till you know how to do it."
                               Ray Charles


From atymes at gmail.com  Sun Mar 18 23:59:02 2012
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2012 16:59:02 -0700
Subject: [ExI] h+ in smithsonian
In-Reply-To: <CAHUTwkPWyj9TgBpi9-6Aeu_1wC-7omzK0K1vcwm9gS_8EPFrGQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <007b01cd053a$4869fcc0$d93df640$@att.net>
 <CAHUTwkPWyj9TgBpi9-6Aeu_1wC-7omzK0K1vcwm9gS_8EPFrGQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNR2r9w8xfz+_WUxNXvxwgLY+NCmCX+YOvsOu34SSbWKEw@mail.gmail.com>

On Mar 18, 2012 4:17 PM, "Jeff Davis" <jrd1415 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> 2012/3/18 spike <spike66 at att.net>:
>
> >
http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/How-to-Become-the-Engineers-of-Our-Own-Evolution.html?utm_source=smithsonianfuturism&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=201203-futurism
>
> From the article:
>
> "...Transhumanists say we are morally obligated to help the human race
> transcend its biological limits..."
>
> How many agree with this?  The moral obligation part.  Feels a bit
> evangelical to me, a bit pushy, a bit intrusive, but that's just me.
> No doubt there's a range of views re the obligatory nature of helping
> others or ***ALL*** humanity to transcend.
>
> I'm perfectly happy to let the rest of humanity choose for themselves
> whether to enhance or not.  Actually, as a personal freedom issue, I
> support those who choose to live "natural", age naturally, and die
> naturally, to do so.  Call me selfish, but I'd prefer that these
> traditionalists age gracefully and die peacefully, and in doing so,
> lighten the Luddite load.

And in so doing, they will cease being part of the
then-currently existing human race, and the race
shall proceed from there.  I see no conflict between
the Smithsonian's statement and what you describe.
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From spike66 at att.net  Sun Mar 18 23:59:21 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2012 16:59:21 -0700
Subject: [ExI] h+ in smithsonian
In-Reply-To: <CAHUTwkPWyj9TgBpi9-6Aeu_1wC-7omzK0K1vcwm9gS_8EPFrGQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <007b01cd053a$4869fcc0$d93df640$@att.net>
 <CAHUTwkPWyj9TgBpi9-6Aeu_1wC-7omzK0K1vcwm9gS_8EPFrGQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00d601cd0563$239f0e20$6add2a60$@att.net>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Jeff Davis
Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2012 4:10 PM
To: ExI chat list
Subject: Re: [ExI] h+ in smithsonian

2012/3/18 spike <spike66 at att.net>:

> http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/How-to-Become-the-Enginee
> rs-of-Our-Own-Evolution.html?utm_source=smithsonianfuturism&utm_medium
> =email&utm_campaign=201203-futurism

>From the article:

>"...Transhumanists say we are morally obligated to help the human race
transcend its biological limits..." Best Jeff Davis

I know of no transhumanists who say we are morally obligated to help the
human race transcend its biological limits.

We are morally obligated to stay out of the way of those who want to do
that, and can.  We are morally obligated to stay out of the way of those who
choose to not transcend.  If a singularity somehow doesn't share these open
minded views, I don't see there is much we can do about it.

There is a good movie from the mid 80s called Cocoon, two movies actually,
both good.  It tells a story partially analogous to this question.  The
aging cocoon discoverers have a choice of eternal youth and vigor.  Most
choose it, some reject, but the assumption is that there is no coercion to
go either way.  Good stories both.

Check it out, your local library probably has both.

spike


         




From emlynoregan at gmail.com  Mon Mar 19 01:10:06 2012
From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 11:40:06 +1030
Subject: [ExI] Mike Treder is missing
Message-ID: <CAMp1VPDRXVyLpgWZwO85GiTMf4OpQ2yTJ-c7JCheUZTeXDffZQ@mail.gmail.com>

>From G+
----

https://plus.google.com/u/0/108797589939818481328/posts/GYUejw4xzuS

PJ Manney  -  11:22 AM  -  Public
My friend, transhumanist leader and IEET Fellow Mike Treder has been
missing since Wednesday March 14 since he went to a conference in
Detroit. No one in his family has heard from him or been able to
contact him.

Mike was at the 55th Annual Science and Engineering Fair of Metro
Detroit 2011-2012 which was held at the Cobo Center in Detroit from
3/13 to 3/17.

Please share this with your networks, especially if you know anyone
who might have attended the conference. We need to find him.

If you have any information that might help us find Mike, please
contact J. Hughes at director at ieet.org.

-- 
Emlyn


From natasha at natasha.cc  Sun Mar 18 23:42:48 2012
From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More)
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2012 18:42:48 -0500
Subject: [ExI] h+ in smithsonian
In-Reply-To: <CAHUTwkPWyj9TgBpi9-6Aeu_1wC-7omzK0K1vcwm9gS_8EPFrGQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <007b01cd053a$4869fcc0$d93df640$@att.net>
 <CAHUTwkPWyj9TgBpi9-6Aeu_1wC-7omzK0K1vcwm9gS_8EPFrGQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <003901cd0560$d3db0d00$7b912700$@cc>

I think she must have gotten this from some person she interviewed and
paraphrased it without quoting who said it.


-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Jeff Davis
Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2012 6:10 PM
To: ExI chat list
Subject: Re: [ExI] h+ in smithsonian

2012/3/18 spike <spike66 at att.net>:

> http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/How-to-Become-the-Enginee
> rs-of-Our-Own-Evolution.html?utm_source=smithsonianfuturism&utm_medium
> =email&utm_campaign=201203-futurism

>From the article:

"...Transhumanists say we are morally obligated to help the human race
transcend its biological limits..."

How many agree with this?  The moral obligation part.  Feels a bit
evangelical to me, a bit pushy, a bit intrusive, but that's just me.
No doubt there's a range of views re the obligatory nature of helping others
or ***ALL*** humanity to transcend.

I'm perfectly happy to let the rest of humanity choose for themselves
whether to enhance or not.  Actually, as a personal freedom issue, I support
those who choose to live "natural", age naturally, and die naturally, to do
so.  Call me selfish, but I'd prefer that these traditionalists age
gracefully and die peacefully, and in doing so, lighten the Luddite load.

Other opinions?

Best Jeff Davis

        "Everything's hard till you know how to do it."
                               Ray Charles
_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat



From natasha at natasha.cc  Mon Mar 19 03:34:42 2012
From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More)
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2012 22:34:42 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Mike Treder is missing
In-Reply-To: <CAMp1VPDRXVyLpgWZwO85GiTMf4OpQ2yTJ-c7JCheUZTeXDffZQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMp1VPDRXVyLpgWZwO85GiTMf4OpQ2yTJ-c7JCheUZTeXDffZQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <001101cd0581$3943d800$abcb8800$@cc>

Thank you Emlyn, I have sent a message to Humanity+ friends. Let's hope he
is returned safely to his family and loved ones.

Natasha Vita-More
Chairman, Humanity+ 
PhD Researcher, Univ. of Plymouth, UK
Editor, The Transhumanist Reader: Classical and Contemporary 
Essays on the Science, Technology and Philosophy of the Human Future



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Emlyn
Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2012 8:10 PM
To: ExI chat list
Subject: [ExI] Mike Treder is missing

>From G+
----

https://plus.google.com/u/0/108797589939818481328/posts/GYUejw4xzuS

PJ Manney  -  11:22 AM  -  Public
My friend, transhumanist leader and IEET Fellow Mike Treder has been missing
since Wednesday March 14 since he went to a conference in Detroit. No one in
his family has heard from him or been able to contact him.

Mike was at the 55th Annual Science and Engineering Fair of Metro Detroit
2011-2012 which was held at the Cobo Center in Detroit from
3/13 to 3/17.

Please share this with your networks, especially if you know anyone who
might have attended the conference. We need to find him.

If you have any information that might help us find Mike, please contact J.
Hughes at director at ieet.org.

--
Emlyn
_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat



From max at maxmore.com  Mon Mar 19 04:17:17 2012
From: max at maxmore.com (Max More)
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2012 21:17:17 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics talk at SENS5
Message-ID: <CAJX-7wVmK+VpDJtxRkon=z+XE3ccgb388QJNDdaOGrjSvYWZ1Q@mail.gmail.com>

For those of you who didn't see this on my FB page or other places, you
might be interested in my talk on cryonics at last year's SENS conference
in Cambridge.

?Cryonic Life Extension?, SENS5 talk, Cambridge, England, September 3,
2011.

http://www.fightaging.org/archives/2012/03/sens5-video-max-more-on-the-necessity-of-cryonics.php

http://exponentialtimes.net/videos/max-more-cryonic-life-extension-sens5

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4rI4XxBxO4&feature=youtu.be

Another take on the topic, from the TEDx Hong Kong conference:

?To Live Again?, TedxHongKong, December 02, 2011. (Day before Humanity+ HK
conference, i.e. Friday).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kN_F2qss-M4

http://thelifeofmanquamanonearth.blogspot.com/2012/01/max-mores-speech-at-tedx-hong-kong.html


--Max

-- 
Max More, PhD
Strategic Philosopher
Co-editor, *The Transhumanist Reader*
CEO, Alcor Life Extension Foundation
7895 E. Acoma Dr # 110
Scottsdale, AZ 85260
480/905-1906 ext 113
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From max at maxmore.com  Mon Mar 19 04:14:19 2012
From: max at maxmore.com (Max More)
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2012 21:14:19 -0700
Subject: [ExI] h+ in smithsonian
In-Reply-To: <003901cd0560$d3db0d00$7b912700$@cc>
References: <007b01cd053a$4869fcc0$d93df640$@att.net>
 <CAHUTwkPWyj9TgBpi9-6Aeu_1wC-7omzK0K1vcwm9gS_8EPFrGQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <003901cd0560$d3db0d00$7b912700$@cc>
Message-ID: <CAJX-7wVqT4QVvkpM36cfyeHDw_MjR06mKWeRmTdKEx2H=gLRqA@mail.gmail.com>

Jeff, it's not just you.

The "moral obligation" view seems to spring from transhumanists who hold a
utilitarian or deontological moral view. It doesn't make sense from a
virtue ethics perspective, which is what I've long favored and which is
reflected in the extropian approach to transhumanism.

I'm all for helping other people to be healthy and overcome their
biological limits, but it's something I choose to do (and to different
degrees depending on what it is), not because it's a moral obligation. What
is the source of such an obligation? No such source exists, in my view.

--Max

P.S. I haven't been receiving any messages from list list in quite a few
days, but they seem to be coming in now.


On Sun, Mar 18, 2012 at 4:42 PM, Natasha Vita-More <natasha at natasha.cc>wrote:

> I think she must have gotten this from some person she interviewed and
> paraphrased it without quoting who said it.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
> [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Jeff Davis
> Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2012 6:10 PM
> To: ExI chat list
> Subject: Re: [ExI] h+ in smithsonian
>
> 2012/3/18 spike <spike66 at att.net>:
>
> > http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/How-to-Become-the-Enginee
> > rs-of-Our-Own-Evolution.html?utm_source=smithsonianfuturism&utm_medium
> > =email&utm_campaign=201203-futurism
>
> From the article:
>
> "...Transhumanists say we are morally obligated to help the human race
> transcend its biological limits..."
>
> How many agree with this?  The moral obligation part.  Feels a bit
> evangelical to me, a bit pushy, a bit intrusive, but that's just me.
> No doubt there's a range of views re the obligatory nature of helping
> others
> or ***ALL*** humanity to transcend.
>
> I'm perfectly happy to let the rest of humanity choose for themselves
> whether to enhance or not.  Actually, as a personal freedom issue, I
> support
> those who choose to live "natural", age naturally, and die naturally, to do
> so.  Call me selfish, but I'd prefer that these traditionalists age
> gracefully and die peacefully, and in doing so, lighten the Luddite load.
>
> Other opinions?
>
> Best Jeff Davis
>
>        "Everything's hard till you know how to do it."
>                               Ray Charles
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>



-- 
Max More, PhD
Strategic Philosopher
Co-editor, *The Transhumanist Reader*
CEO, Alcor Life Extension Foundation
7895 E. Acoma Dr # 110
Scottsdale, AZ 85260
480/905-1906 ext 113
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From steinberg.will at gmail.com  Mon Mar 19 04:56:54 2012
From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg)
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2012 23:56:54 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Jaw-dropping CWRU Alzheimer's breakthrough?
In-Reply-To: <002701cd0513$2e850740$8b8f15c0$@att.net>
References: <mailman.466.1330314863.825.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <1330346071.48236.YahooMailNeo@web132106.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
 <00f101ccf565$40f7deb0$c2e79c10$@att.net>
 <CAPy8RwbyZWVURXyni9gaT+PcpzqL94u2aJ9nAMzo_GpPs-7q-w@mail.gmail.com>
 <4F51604C.20000@mac.com> <00ca01ccf8f4$aca75d60$05f61820$@att.net>
 <003401ccf951$3bb77dd0$b3267970$@att.net>
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 <007c01ccf978$80167950$80436bf0$@att.net>
 <CAAc1gFirKEeQknUWvYjeTbyfCO8-cYNyWutJPSbdUm0z1kmRBg@mail.gmail.com>
 <000501cd0261$665dd0c0$33197240$@att.net>
 <CAHUTwkO3nD4r=i1sLtXNYV3G_YSX5GAH9+V2+M6dN+9WZZ=s+g@mail.gmail.com>
 <00a401cd02f3$192f6f60$4b8e4e20$@att.net>
 <1331849648.23359.YahooMailNeo@web164504.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
 <00ca01cd030f$cdc7ab60$69570220$@att.net>
 <007401cd04c1$52ad49e0$f807dda0$@att.net>
 <007801cd04c5$37e95780$a7bc0680$@att.net>
 <CAL_armgOP7M3xuYs-5ekYXW_euZaY0Tw6vreqFLTcBq8RwF=OQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <002701cd0513$2e850740$8b8f15c0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAKrqSyFoStswXQPBPBwbwB6cqv=qZ=VJTdG-SOhq6EMXwD0VYA@mail.gmail.com>

Spike, you might want to try medical marijuana.  If you don't live in a
state where it's medical, there tend to be other ways too.  I am reminded
of a story told to me by the mother of an ex-ExI-ite that involved her
mother with Alzheimer's eating medicinal marijuana edibles.  I don't
remember the details so well but it had improved her speech abilities.
 Marijuana use has been correlated with decreased beta-amyloid as well.

It also has had an exceedingly good and long-term test bed of subjects.

It ALSO is certainly cheaper per dose than forgoing insurance to buy a
paltry amount of bexarotene for five grand.

Just a suggestion.  Consider the fact that guinea-pigging chemotherapy
drugs with new doses, target effects, and ROAs is *incredibly serious* (not
to mention potentially dangerous) business.
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From spike66 at att.net  Mon Mar 19 05:49:57 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2012 22:49:57 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Jaw-dropping CWRU Alzheimer's breakthrough?
In-Reply-To: <CAKrqSyFoStswXQPBPBwbwB6cqv=qZ=VJTdG-SOhq6EMXwD0VYA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.466.1330314863.825.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <1330346071.48236.YahooMailNeo@web132106.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
 <00f101ccf565$40f7deb0$c2e79c10$@att.net>
 <CAPy8RwbyZWVURXyni9gaT+PcpzqL94u2aJ9nAMzo_GpPs-7q-w@mail.gmail.com>
 <4F51604C.20000@mac.com> <00ca01ccf8f4$aca75d60$05f61820$@att.net>
 <003401ccf951$3bb77dd0$b3267970$@att.net>
 <CAAc1gFjgL9sMrSHvFxfjuGkC9HZhTuDz_f8p266c1YMrWZAHEQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <007c01ccf978$80167950$80436bf0$@att.net>
 <CAAc1gFirKEeQknUWvYjeTbyfCO8-cYNyWutJPSbdUm0z1kmRBg@mail.gmail.com>
 <000501cd0261$665dd0c0$33197240$@att.net>
 <CAHUTwkO3nD4r=i1sLtXNYV3G_YSX5GAH9+V2+M6dN+9WZZ=s+g@mail.gmail.com>
 <00a401cd02f3$192f6f60$4b8e4e20$@att.net>
 <1331849648.23359.YahooMailNeo@web164504.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
 <00ca01cd030f$cdc7ab60$69570220$@att.net>
 <007401cd04c1$52ad49e0$f807dda0$@att.net>
 <007801cd04c5$37e95780$a7bc0680$@att.net>
 <CAL_armgOP7M3xuYs-5ekYXW_euZaY0Tw6vreqFLTcBq8RwF=OQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <002701cd0513$2e850740$8b8f15c0$@att.net> <CAKrqSyFoStswXQPBPBwbwB6cqv
 =qZ=VJTdG-SOhq6EMXwD0VYA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <005a01cd0594$1e265620$5a730260$@att.net>

 

From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Will Steinberg
Subject: Re: [ExI] Jaw-dropping CWRU Alzheimer's breakthrough?

 

>.Spike, you might want to try medical marijuana.

 

Hmm, thanks but in this particular case this treatment is likely out of the
question, no point in even suggesting it.

 

>.It also has had an exceedingly good and long-term test bed of subjects.

 

Ja, were it me, I would likely try it, but the patient is not me.

 

>.It ALSO is certainly cheaper per dose than forgoing insurance to buy a
paltry amount of bexarotene for five grand.

 

It likely wouldn't take much.  If bexarotene is used in reagent grade, it
isn't expensive.  If used in the dosages I would suggest, it's cost is
nearly negligible.

 

>.Just a suggestion.  Consider the fact that guinea-pigging chemotherapy
drugs with new doses, target effects, and ROAs is *incredibly serious* (not
to mention potentially dangerous) business.

 

Oy, don't I know it.  If the family decides to go ahead with it, the dosage
would be about a tenth what is approved for cancer patients, with solubility
and B^3 diffusion enhancement.  Most likely it will do nothing at those
doses, but even that is data.  A negative finding is a finding.

 

Yesterday's announcement has me rethinking the whole notion.  That report
suggested that bexarotene cured the cancer but slew the patients.

 

Thanks for the idea Will.  I will keep it in mind if I should become the
patient in the future.

 

spike

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From max at maxmore.com  Mon Mar 19 06:16:04 2012
From: max at maxmore.com (Max More)
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2012 23:16:04 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Alcor-40 2012 Conference
Message-ID: <CAJX-7wU=J3t1c=17SQgpg284Sg363Um8Uz5be6UyE-pkTPQidQ@mail.gmail.com>

Since I now seem to be receiving ExI-Chat messages again, I want to give
everyone a heads-up on the Alcor conference coming up this October. The
Alcor Life Extension Foundation has been in existence for 40 years now (and
I've been a member starting 26 years ago). Since it's been five years since
the last conference, this seems like an especially good time to hold
another. I aim to make this one different and stimulating to anyone
interested in cryopreservation, life extension, and related issues. I'll
have some speakers to announce before long, but the basic information is
here:

http://www.alcor.org/blog/?p=2492

I hope to see some old friends and people I still know only by name on this
email list.

--Max

-- 
Max More, PhD
Strategic Philosopher
Co-editor, *The Transhumanist Reader*
CEO, Alcor Life Extension Foundation
7895 E. Acoma Dr # 110
Scottsdale, AZ 85260
480/905-1906 ext 113
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From pharos at gmail.com  Mon Mar 19 08:16:06 2012
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 08:16:06 +0000
Subject: [ExI] h+ in smithsonian
In-Reply-To: <003901cd0560$d3db0d00$7b912700$@cc>
References: <007b01cd053a$4869fcc0$d93df640$@att.net>
 <CAHUTwkPWyj9TgBpi9-6Aeu_1wC-7omzK0K1vcwm9gS_8EPFrGQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <003901cd0560$d3db0d00$7b912700$@cc>
Message-ID: <CAL_armiW+h9tDTcNZgqDSrnbhwZ764-waxyR6EzqB26UJu0Qaw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Mar 18, 2012 at 11:42 PM, Natasha Vita-More wrote:
> I think she must have gotten this from some person she interviewed and
> paraphrased it without quoting who said it.
>
>

Yes, it is probably just artistic interpretation.

This article is only a short pop introduction to transhumanism.

When a writer uses the phrase 'morally obligated' they don't usually
intend to get into a discussion of all the different systems of
morality and which applies / drives the current subject.

"...Transhumanists say we are morally obligated to help the human race
transcend its biological limits..."

You could just say 'want to' or 'would like to' or 'support' the use
of science and technology to help the human race ...........

The human race bit is needed because transhumanists can't do it on
their own. The need at present is to persuade a wider population that
this is a realistic objective that is worth pursuing and spending time
and money on researching.
It is really only taking medical research on curing disease on to the
next step of curing ageing and 'improving' the human body.

The next step after that though....................

BillK


From pharos at gmail.com  Mon Mar 19 08:30:32 2012
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 08:30:32 +0000
Subject: [ExI] World's smallest production car gets a new lease on life
Message-ID: <CAL_armgMAmu-=7E0yd59jUc8AqJ+XNrwzS3Umdn=h5XCNJWV2w@mail.gmail.com>

The quest for more fuel-efficient vehicles has seen a shift from the
gas-guzzling behemoths of yesteryear to smaller and smaller cars, such
as the Volkswagen up! and Toyota iQ. The smallest currently in
production is the Tata Nano that measures just 122 inches (309.9 cm)
long and 58.9 inches (223 cm) wide. But for the world?s smallest ever
production car you?d have to look back to the early 1960?s and the
Peel P50, which measured just 54 inches (137 cm) long and 41 inches
(104.1 cm) wide, and weighed 130 lb (59 kg). Now replicas of the P50
-and its bigger brother, the Peel Trident - are getting a limited
production run and will be offered with a choice of gasoline or
electric powerplants.

<http://www.gizmag.com/peel-p50-trident-microcars/21869/>

The company is offering both gasoline and electric models, with the
former powered by a 49 cc four stroke CVT engine generating 2.5 kW and
4.2 Nm of torque and boasting fuel economy figures of 118 mpg (50
km/liter). The electric model is powered by a DC brushless CVT
electric motor also generating 2.5 kW, but with 14.4 Nm of torque and
the removable battery pack providing a range of 20 miles (30 km). Both
models have a limited top speed of 40 mph (65 km/h).
-------------------

This should press spike's micro-cars button!    ;)


BillK



From bbenzai at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 19 09:49:11 2012
From: bbenzai at yahoo.com (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 02:49:11 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] h+ in smithsonian
In-Reply-To: <mailman.41.1332115931.17650.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <1332150551.5485.YahooMailClassic@web114410.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

Jeff Davis <jrd1415 at gmail.com> asked:

>> http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/How-to-Become-the-Engineers-of-Our-Own-Evolution.html?utm_source=smithsonianfuturism&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=201203-futurism

>From the article:

> "...Transhumanists say we are morally obligated (sic) to help the human race
> transcend its biological limits..."
> 
> How many agree with this?  The moral obligation part.  


I strongly disagree that transhumanists are morally obliged to 'help' people do anything they don't want to do!  There are lots of people, even transhumanists, who don't want to transcend biology.

What I think we /may/ be morally obliged to do, is to do what we can to ensure people have choices to improve themselves in whatever ways they want, provided they aren't harming other people.

As far as any obligation to 'the human race', that is for each individual to decide.  Transhumanists as a whole are not morally obliged to do anything with regard to it.


Ben Zaiboc



From bbenzai at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 19 09:54:07 2012
From: bbenzai at yahoo.com (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 02:54:07 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Nuclear hopper
In-Reply-To: <1331465332.25219.YahooMailClassic@web114403.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1332150847.7470.YahooMailClassic@web114414.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

I sent this on the 11th, but apparently it didn't get through to the list:

--- On Sun, 11/3/12, Ben Zaiboc wrote:


> Subject: Nuclear hopper
> To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> Date: Sunday, 11 March, 2012, 11:28
> Interesting concept for high-volume
> space launches:
> 
> http://nextbigfuture.com/2012/03/friedlanders-idea-for-nuclear-hopper.html
> 
> Ben Zaiboc
> 



From natasha at natasha.cc  Mon Mar 19 13:06:52 2012
From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 08:06:52 -0500
Subject: [ExI] h+ in smithsonian
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armiW+h9tDTcNZgqDSrnbhwZ764-waxyR6EzqB26UJu0Qaw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <007b01cd053a$4869fcc0$d93df640$@att.net>
 <CAHUTwkPWyj9TgBpi9-6Aeu_1wC-7omzK0K1vcwm9gS_8EPFrGQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <003901cd0560$d3db0d00$7b912700$@cc>
 <CAL_armiW+h9tDTcNZgqDSrnbhwZ764-waxyR6EzqB26UJu0Qaw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <005601cd05d1$277e3a20$767aae60$@cc>

-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of BillK
Sent: Monday, March 19, 2012 3:16 AM
To: ExI chat list
Subject: Re: [ExI] h+ in smithsonian

On Sun, Mar 18, 2012 at 11:42 PM, Natasha Vita-More wrote:
> I think she must have gotten this from some person she interviewed and 
> paraphrased it without quoting who said it.


>Yes, it is probably just artistic interpretation.

The writer is not an artist. She is a science journalist for the
Smithsonian.

>This article is only a short pop introduction to transhumanism.

Yes, all too short.

>When a writer uses the phrase 'morally obligated' they don't usually intend
to get into a discussion of all the different 
>systems of morality and which applies / drives the current subject.

I know she interviewed 5 people and some are into "morality" of
transhumanism, so that is where I would go for questions. Email her and ask
why she says this. But let's not trash the entire article because someone
put this thought in her head.  Go to the utilitarian transhumanists and
discuss/debate this understanding with them.

Natasha




From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Mon Mar 19 14:48:03 2012
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 07:48:03 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Mike Treder is missing
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB6f6P+F0iw7YaGe84R456N2Heimsp6Ci--xDxndy9Y8nA@mail.gmail.com>

Just passing this on

EET Fellow Mike Treder is missing
 March 19, 2012
 ...................................

Transhumanist leader and IEET Fellow Mike Treder has been missing
since Wednesday March 14, when he visited Detroit. No one in his
family has heard from him or has been able to contact him. Mike was at
the 55th Annual Science and Engineering Fair of Metro Detroit
2011-2012, which was held at the Cobo Center [...]

MORE | http://kurzweilai.us1.list-manage.com/track/click?u=aad1a7eea269839c7d10845e8&id=b369160e38&e=6ccbd62dbf


From kellycoinguy at gmail.com  Mon Mar 19 14:23:58 2012
From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 08:23:58 -0600
Subject: [ExI] h+ in smithsonian
In-Reply-To: <CAHUTwkPWyj9TgBpi9-6Aeu_1wC-7omzK0K1vcwm9gS_8EPFrGQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <007b01cd053a$4869fcc0$d93df640$@att.net>
 <CAHUTwkPWyj9TgBpi9-6Aeu_1wC-7omzK0K1vcwm9gS_8EPFrGQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPy8RwZ=c_xZXSvsbARQVFR6D6fxS51gAUvBPvUwKi_mcLRzxw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Mar 18, 2012 at 5:09 PM, Jeff Davis <jrd1415 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 2012/3/18 spike <spike66 at att.net>:
>
>> http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/How-to-Become-the-Engineers-of-Our-Own-Evolution.html?utm_source=smithsonianfuturism&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=201203-futurism
>
> From the article:
>
> "...Transhumanists say we are morally obligated to help the human race
> transcend its biological limits..."
>
> How many agree with this?

I don't. I feel we are only morally obligated to minimally intrude in
the lives of those who wish to do so. Or those who wish NOT to do so.
That is the only moral obligation I feel. If we outlawed frozen heads,
only outlaws would have frozen heads. ;-)

> The moral obligation part. ?Feels a bit
> evangelical to me, a bit pushy, a bit intrusive, but that's just me.
> No doubt there's a range of views re the obligatory nature of helping
> others or ***ALL*** humanity to transcend.

No doubt, but I'm comfortable with where I stand. Perhaps this is a
carry over from my days as a Mormon. I still have the article of faith
to let others worship how when and what they may written in my heart.

> I'm perfectly happy to let the rest of humanity choose for themselves
> whether to enhance or not. ?Actually, as a personal freedom issue, I
> support those who choose to live "natural", age naturally, and die
> naturally, to do so. ?Call me selfish, but I'd prefer that these
> traditionalists age gracefully and die peacefully, and in doing so,
> lighten the Luddite load.

I think everyone can choose for themselves, but eventually there may
come a point when they may regret choosing to get off the progress
train... Or maybe they will feel glad that they did... But I can't
help that humanity itself is merely a stepping stone in the path of
evolution, not the end of creation.

> Other opinions?

Everyone has one.

-Kelly



From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Mon Mar 19 14:58:50 2012
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 07:58:50 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Alternate to shrinking people
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB6QT9WskBVSgvmh1AJGmACr+sEN=DP2=uN0He8YqO5BpQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 1:00 PM,  Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:

> Reading through the study...
>
> Page 15, table 2.2. ?Restated on page 18, table 2.3.
> DRM 1-A and 1-C are 40 kg payloads; 1-B is 80 kg.
>
> Even ignoring the launch vehicle costs, the recurring
> per-launch ground operations costs come to $666,666.67,
> $916,666.67, and $791,666.67 respectively. ?Per kg, that's
> about $17K, $11K, and $20K, respectively.
>
> That is way more than $100/kg - and again, that's ignoring
> the launch vehicle costs, though those are on the order
> of$1K/kg (and thus need to be addressed to get under
> $100/kg).
>
> What kinds of cost savings are you anticipating, that the
> NASA study does not reflect? ?Granted, simply not using
> the traditional overengineer-because-cost-is-no-object
> approach could be a huge part of that.

I have managed to read most of the report myself by now.  It's OK for
NASA I suppose, at least it gets some of the physics right.  The usual
suspects were either quoted or part of the study.

Part of the problem is the unfocused nature of their missions.  They
are also not taking advantage of burning hydrogen while there is
atmosphere.  There is also a huge advantage in larger scale, and
though the numbers get large, they are not in the context of the
energy business.

Keith



From spike66 at att.net  Mon Mar 19 15:23:51 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 08:23:51 -0700
Subject: [ExI] h+ in smithsonian
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armiW+h9tDTcNZgqDSrnbhwZ764-waxyR6EzqB26UJu0Qaw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <007b01cd053a$4869fcc0$d93df640$@att.net>
 <CAHUTwkPWyj9TgBpi9-6Aeu_1wC-7omzK0K1vcwm9gS_8EPFrGQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <003901cd0560$d3db0d00$7b912700$@cc>
 <CAL_armiW+h9tDTcNZgqDSrnbhwZ764-waxyR6EzqB26UJu0Qaw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <005101cd05e4$4a5836f0$df08a4d0$@att.net>


On Sun, Mar 18, 2012 at 11:42 PM, Natasha Vita-More wrote:

> I think she must have gotten this from some person she interviewed and 
> paraphrased it without quoting who said it.
...

>..."...Transhumanists say we are morally obligated to help the human race
transcend its biological limits..."


Ja, but the author must be called on the carpet, even if gently.  If a news
person quotes someone or uses quotation marks, they need to get the quote
exactly as it was uttered or written.  This is basic journalistic ethics.
It would likely be OK to just call the journal and talk to someone in
charge, let her handle it.  From the article, this quote appears
unattributed, but it implies Natasha said it, which I am quite confident she
did not.  The writer should have left off the quotation marks.

This particular quote creeps me out because it sounds too much like some JW
saying "We are morally obligated to help the human race find Jesus."

spike

Unrelated question:  Whenever Jesus found himself in a moral or ethical
dilemma, would he ask himself, "What would I do?"




From pharos at gmail.com  Mon Mar 19 15:37:28 2012
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 15:37:28 +0000
Subject: [ExI] World's smallest production car gets a new lease on life
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armgMAmu-=7E0yd59jUc8AqJ+XNrwzS3Umdn=h5XCNJWV2w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armgMAmu-=7E0yd59jUc8AqJ+XNrwzS3Umdn=h5XCNJWV2w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armgbS4XidjRq1T_pOrarQmq6ONeSOWDx3rqn0ht18v_iug@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Mar 19, 2012 at 8:30 AM, BillK wrote:
>
> This should press spike's micro-cars button! ? ?;)
>
>

Here is a funny video of Jeremy Clarkson (6 ft 4.5 in) road testing a Peel P50.

<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UiF_49hSXl4>


BillK



From spike66 at att.net  Mon Mar 19 15:36:40 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 08:36:40 -0700
Subject: [ExI] World's smallest production car gets a new lease on life
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armgMAmu-=7E0yd59jUc8AqJ+XNrwzS3Umdn=h5XCNJWV2w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armgMAmu-=7E0yd59jUc8AqJ+XNrwzS3Umdn=h5XCNJWV2w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <005201cd05e6$1469fe00$3d3dfa00$@att.net>


>... On Behalf Of BillK
Subject: [ExI] World's smallest production car gets a new lease on life

>... The smallest currently in production is the Tata Nano that measures
just 122 inches (309.9 cm) long and 58.9 inches (223 cm) wide...

Cool thanks BillK.  They blew one of the metric conversions, width of the
Nano.  The inch figure is right, but it is about 150 cm wide, not 223.

>... But for the world's smallest ever production car you'd have to look
back to the early 1960's and the Peel P50, which measured just 54 inches
(137 cm) long and 41 inches (104.1 cm) wide, and weighed 130 lb (59
kg)...<http://www.gizmag.com/peel-p50-trident-microcars/21869/>...This
should press spike's micro-cars button!    ;)  BillK

_______________________________________________

Ja, the government does not need to fund research into super-low fuel cars,
we have had those since before we were born.  The challenge is to invent a
system that makes them safe to operate on roads with our current monster
cars (which is everything on the road now.)  This can be done, governments
have the authority to do it.  Make it safe, people will come.  Right now I
cannot even safely ride a bicycle to work, less than 10 miles, because there
are no dedicated roads or even lanes for light low speed vehicles.

Eeesh we can do this if we get on it.  It wouldn't even be that expensive.
We have entire lanes dedicated to vehicles with at least two people in it,
seldom used.  But we don't supply even half a lane for pedal vehicles or low
speed gas sippers.

spike



From atymes at gmail.com  Mon Mar 19 15:23:25 2012
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 08:23:25 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Nuclear hopper
In-Reply-To: <1332150847.7470.YahooMailClassic@web114414.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <1331465332.25219.YahooMailClassic@web114403.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
 <1332150847.7470.YahooMailClassic@web114414.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNQOC6TbszH_9h_SMAoXbvD_A4w7cjFp55WWugOjin73LA@mail.gmail.com>

No, I got it via the list.

On Mon, Mar 19, 2012 at 2:54 AM, Ben Zaiboc <bbenzai at yahoo.com> wrote:
> I sent this on the 11th, but apparently it didn't get through to the list:
>
> --- On Sun, 11/3/12, Ben Zaiboc wrote:
>
>
>> Subject: Nuclear hopper
>> To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> Date: Sunday, 11 March, 2012, 11:28
>> Interesting concept for high-volume
>> space launches:
>>
>> http://nextbigfuture.com/2012/03/friedlanders-idea-for-nuclear-hopper.html
>>
>> Ben Zaiboc
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From natasha at natasha.cc  Mon Mar 19 15:02:43 2012
From: natasha at natasha.cc (natasha at natasha.cc)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 11:02:43 -0400
Subject: [ExI] h+ in smithsonian
In-Reply-To: <005101cd05e4$4a5836f0$df08a4d0$@att.net>
References: <007b01cd053a$4869fcc0$d93df640$@att.net>
 <CAHUTwkPWyj9TgBpi9-6Aeu_1wC-7omzK0K1vcwm9gS_8EPFrGQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <003901cd0560$d3db0d00$7b912700$@cc>
 <CAL_armiW+h9tDTcNZgqDSrnbhwZ764-waxyR6EzqB26UJu0Qaw@mail.gmail.com>
 <005101cd05e4$4a5836f0$df08a4d0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <20120319110243.huvwyyhif4scc4gk@webmail.natasha.cc>



   I DID NOT SAY SUCH A STUPID THING.

   Quoting spike <spike66 at att.net>:

>
> On Sun, Mar 18, 2012 at 11:42 PM, Natasha Vita-More wrote:
>
>> I think she must have gotten this from some person she interviewed and
>> paraphrased it without quoting who said it.
> ...
>
>> ..."...Transhumanists say we are morally obligated to help the human race
> transcend its biological limits..."
>
>
> Ja, but the author must be called on the carpet, even if gently.? If a news
> person quotes someone or uses quotation marks, they need to get the quote
> exactly as it was uttered or written.? This is basic journalistic ethics.
> It would likely be OK to just call the journal and talk to someone in
> charge, let her handle it.? From the article, this quote appears
> unattributed, but it implies Natasha said it, which I am quite confident she
> did not.? The writer should have left off the quotation marks.
>
> This particular quote creeps me out because it sounds too much like some JW
> saying "We are morally obligated to help the human race find Jesus."
>
> spike
>
> Unrelated question:? Whenever Jesus found himself in a moral or ethical
> dilemma, would he ask himself, "What would I do?"
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat[1]
>


Links:
------
[1] http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


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From eugen at leitl.org  Mon Mar 19 16:29:59 2012
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 17:29:59 +0100
Subject: [ExI] h+ in smithsonian
In-Reply-To: <20120319110243.huvwyyhif4scc4gk@webmail.natasha.cc>
References: <007b01cd053a$4869fcc0$d93df640$@att.net>
 <CAHUTwkPWyj9TgBpi9-6Aeu_1wC-7omzK0K1vcwm9gS_8EPFrGQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <003901cd0560$d3db0d00$7b912700$@cc>
 <CAL_armiW+h9tDTcNZgqDSrnbhwZ764-waxyR6EzqB26UJu0Qaw@mail.gmail.com>
 <005101cd05e4$4a5836f0$df08a4d0$@att.net>
 <20120319110243.huvwyyhif4scc4gk@webmail.natasha.cc>
Message-ID: <20120319162959.GB9891@leitl.org>

On Mon, Mar 19, 2012 at 11:02:43AM -0400, natasha at natasha.cc wrote:
>
>
>   I DID NOT SAY SUCH A STUPID THING.

This is the year 2012, and almost nobody can quote anymore <shoots himself>

>   Quoting spike <spike66 at att.net>:
>
>>
>> On Sun, Mar 18, 2012 at 11:42 PM, Natasha Vita-More wrote:
>>
>>> I think she must have gotten this from some person she interviewed and
>>> paraphrased it without quoting who said it.
>> ...
>>
>>> ..."...Transhumanists say we are morally obligated to help the human race
>> transcend its biological limits..."
>>
>>
>> Ja, but the author must be called on the carpet, even if gently.? If a news
>> person quotes someone or uses quotation marks, they need to get the quote
>> exactly as it was uttered or written.? This is basic journalistic ethics.
>> It would likely be OK to just call the journal and talk to someone in
>> charge, let her handle it.? From the article, this quote appears
>> unattributed, but it implies Natasha said it, which I am quite confident she
>> did not.? The writer should have left off the quotation marks.
>>
>> This particular quote creeps me out because it sounds too much like some JW
>> saying "We are morally obligated to help the human race find Jesus."
>>
>> spike
>>
>> Unrelated question:? Whenever Jesus found himself in a moral or ethical
>> dilemma, would he ask himself, "What would I do?"
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat[1]
>>


From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Mon Mar 19 16:01:25 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 17:01:25 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Right to medical information
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNSZW8rdYOABK2qGnsVYo1hf1OkabxEYCrCJH9SJYKS1Dw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL+RtPe+LDQmbX0ZCz+3jrrN7pkON9ay03=Ed3qvvd2cyc2TBA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPy8Rwb21EMddMsM-rKEsVTO05FGthdYszqaC4HPfoVuM8M02g@mail.gmail.com>
 <1332108936.40618.YahooMailNeo@web164505.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
 <CALAdGNSZW8rdYOABK2qGnsVYo1hf1OkabxEYCrCJH9SJYKS1Dw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a5Mgn9fyLArUg-kqtnE5j58upTFyz02t-CWzW=viRQxkw@mail.gmail.com>

On 18 March 2012 23:46, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:

> An ob/gyn who cares not for the mother's
> health so long as the baby is delivered, is an ob/gyn whose
> customers die more often.
>

Theoretically, there might be physicians who could have the opposite
interest.

For instance, let us say one who does abortions but not deliveries, or one
who runs a goodwill risk as to the accuracy of his prenatal diagnoses if a
defective child is brought to termin, but does not really face adverse
consequences if the aborted child ends up being perfectly healthy.

Best way to deal with that? I tell my partners and associates "we offer
advice, not recommendations". Advice is: your chances are x%, your possible
rewards/costs are within this range. Recommendations are: you should/should
not go for it.

An entirely different issue is whether somebody who is paid to provide you
with the means to take an informed decision should be allowed to mislead
you or keep the information for themselves. This is of course abhorrent in
logical, legal and ethical terms.

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From dan_ust at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 19 16:41:22 2012
From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 09:41:22 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Nuclear hopper
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNQOC6TbszH_9h_SMAoXbvD_A4w7cjFp55WWugOjin73LA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1331465332.25219.YahooMailClassic@web114403.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
 <1332150847.7470.YahooMailClassic@web114414.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
 <CALAdGNQOC6TbszH_9h_SMAoXbvD_A4w7cjFp55WWugOjin73LA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1332175282.95312.YahooMailNeo@web160605.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

Same here.

Dan

________________________________
 From: Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com>
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> 
Sent: Monday, March 19, 2012 11:23 AM
Subject: Re: [ExI] Nuclear hopper
 
No, I got it via the list.
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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Mon Mar 19 15:52:09 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 16:52:09 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Right to medical information
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNSh5f_q_gO9eA_M2GgsVc=JFzzB+7=RD10Ondk9ViTTwQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL+RtPe+LDQmbX0ZCz+3jrrN7pkON9ay03=Ed3qvvd2cyc2TBA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPy8Rwb21EMddMsM-rKEsVTO05FGthdYszqaC4HPfoVuM8M02g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a5nK+uG8-5Q_Ke-qXWmnW91ApNx_AjhJCc36HLpwVnzZQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNSh5f_q_gO9eA_M2GgsVc=JFzzB+7=RD10Ondk9ViTTwQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a6S9khfddNo20KGA_Tjsz4jjWPuFYk6PDJyjk-GTLcXmQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 18 March 2012 18:27, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:

> Isn't this already happening, in many cases?  Although the actual cited
> reason tends to be because identifying the deal as a can of worms is
> complex and uncertain enough that any human being - even a trained
> professional with all the relevant data - could reasonably have
> misdiagnosed.  Officially, that is.  (Unofficially, the reason is more
> often, "non-yes-men don't keep this job".)
>

I think that "spins" are basically acceptable and/or inevitable ("it might
still end up being a bargain/a nice child, after all"), but paying somebody
for being told lies, hey, the client must write this down if it is really
what he wants from me.

If anything because the prospective purchasers/parents, in spite of their
possible temporary wish not to hear bad news, could later sue the
lawyer/doctor who deliberately kept silent about, or misrepresented,
available data. And rightly so, I would add.

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From msd001 at gmail.com  Mon Mar 19 16:32:00 2012
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 12:32:00 -0400
Subject: [ExI] h+ in smithsonian
In-Reply-To: <CAHUTwkPWyj9TgBpi9-6Aeu_1wC-7omzK0K1vcwm9gS_8EPFrGQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <007b01cd053a$4869fcc0$d93df640$@att.net>
 <CAHUTwkPWyj9TgBpi9-6Aeu_1wC-7omzK0K1vcwm9gS_8EPFrGQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOJFdbLx45H6-DrUC6aCidUyYijcztBTcvaknDNk29xQhD-cYw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Mar 18, 2012 at 7:09 PM, Jeff Davis <jrd1415 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> "...Transhumanists say we are morally obligated to help the human race
> transcend its biological limits..."
>
> How many agree with this? ?The moral obligation part. ?Feels a bit
> evangelical to me, a bit pushy, a bit intrusive, but that's just me.
> No doubt there's a range of views re the obligatory nature of helping
> others or ***ALL*** humanity to transcend.
>
> I'm perfectly happy to let the rest of humanity choose for themselves
> whether to enhance or not. ?Actually, as a personal freedom issue, I
> support those who choose to live "natural", age naturally, and die
> naturally, to do so. ?Call me selfish, but I'd prefer that these
> traditionalists age gracefully and die peacefully, and in doing so,
> lighten the Luddite load.

I'm late to this thread, but I wanted to throw in my two cents:

If I were to feel any moral obligation it would be to my own
transcendence.  That example would then be available for others to
follow.  Not everyone will be on the same path, but someone (some
ones) need to blaze a trail in order for the path to exist.

Do we feel a moral obligation to have this author amend the sentiment?
Do transhumanists share any particular standard as a group?  For
solidarity's sake can we agree that the transhumanist label is
entitled to the same consideration as any ethnic, racial or
ideological group?  Do people understand this without making an issue
out of it?  ex:  If I explain that "Amish people" believe X, you
understand that 1) I have personal bias for making this claim 2) my
understanding of the entire group is based on a limited number of
examples that may not be ideally representative.

transhumanist: a single instance of the group identified as transhumanists
transhumanists: a group of individuals loosely collected by ideals not
shared 100% unanimously by any 2 members.

how else might these terms be expressed?



From bbenzai at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 19 18:07:22 2012
From: bbenzai at yahoo.com (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 11:07:22 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Unrelated Question (was: Re:  h+ in smithsonian)
In-Reply-To: <mailman.52.1332173978.17650.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <1332180442.84936.YahooMailClassic@web114409.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

"spike" <spike66 at att.net> asked:


> Unrelated question:  Whenever Jesus found himself in a moral or ethical
> dilemma, would he ask himself, "What would I do?"


No, I reckon Jesus, if he existed, would have to ask himself: "What would Chuck Norris do?"


Ben Zaiboc



From kellycoinguy at gmail.com  Mon Mar 19 20:55:46 2012
From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 14:55:46 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Art of the Future
Message-ID: <CAPy8RwYPQ_gWkVUxf6KXCeKC+TSE_9wwJjKi=G-E71gUs71m-g@mail.gmail.com>

I was looking at one of the articles referred to in another thread,
and I stumbled onto Albert Robida... he was a French artist active
from around 1880-1920, and he drew illustrations of the future. He
obviously got a lot wrong, but he got a lot right too. Basically, he
was right on with many forms and uses of video (including television,
porn, Tivo, personal broadcasting, etc.) and he called WWII dead on.
He wrote an illustrated story about a great war fought to a great
extent from the air. He even got who was fighting who right, with
Germany and Japan on one side and the US, Britain and France on the
other. It was rather fun to look at his whimsical illustrations, and I
would encourage any of you to Google Images for Albert Robida, you'll
find some fun stuff.

Anyway, this all got me to thinking... how do we illustrate the future
that we envision? As I think about the future as I believe it will be,
I find it difficult to construct mental images of what such
illustrations might look like. You in a chair with a funny hat on?
What does that convey? How do you illustrate nanotechnology? Or
Artificial Intelligence? Sure, robots have been done, and for a long
time... but what else is out there.

If I'm wrong, and there is work being done in this area, who do you
find inspiring in the world of future art?

We have talked about Science Fiction as a vehicle for getting
transhumanist and futurist ideas out there... but what about the other
arts? Music, Illustration, Photography, etc. The images of the past
from Robida and others are inspiring. Science fiction often isn't, but
that's another thread on the ubiquity of dystopian visions.

Art has an indispensible role to play in preparing people's minds for
the future. We have movies like Gattaca... that are somewhat possible,
but dystopia is easier to portray in a movie than utopia. I am
reminded of a passage in the Book of Mormon... 4 Nephi chapter 1,
where they describe several hundred years of utopian peace in about
ten verses...

"And it came to pass that the thirty and seventh year passed away
also, and there still continued to be peace in the land."

It's the most utterly boring part of the whole book. It is a relief
that it is so short while other parts of the book are sometimes quite
fun and interesting. But this illustrates a point, that talking about
techno-utopia is also pretty boring. Let's say that you were able to
write accurately about today twenty years ago... about the good stuff,
what would you say?

"And kids have little devices that allow them to listen to whatever
music they want to, and you have access to more information than you
can imagine from a hand held device that doubles as a telephone."
Boring... I guess... reads a lot like The Age of Spiritual Machines...
LOL.

-Kelly


From lubkin at unreasonable.com  Mon Mar 19 22:23:21 2012
From: lubkin at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 18:23:21 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Mike Treder is missing
In-Reply-To: <001101cd0581$3943d800$abcb8800$@cc>
References: <CAMp1VPDRXVyLpgWZwO85GiTMf4OpQ2yTJ-c7JCheUZTeXDffZQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <001101cd0581$3943d800$abcb8800$@cc>
Message-ID: <201203192223.q2JMNTsa021850@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

I passed the information on to one of my networks, and received this:

>Here's a link for Fox 2 Detroit's coverage which provides pictures 
>of Treder. The video here is probably from Sunday. Fox 2 ran a much 
>more informative video in Monday evening's broadcast, including the 
>information that his cell phone was last used at 6:29 pm on 
>Wednesday. Also, some conflicting information about his attendance 
>at the conference. His luggage was found in his hotel room.

http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/dpp/news/local/missing-new-yorker-last-seen-in-detroit 


For those of you on Facebook, Mike's page seems to be a Schilling
Point for discussing news and concern.

http://www.facebook.com/mike.treder


-- David.



From msd001 at gmail.com  Tue Mar 20 00:29:21 2012
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 20:29:21 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Unrelated Question (was: Re: h+ in smithsonian)
In-Reply-To: <1332180442.84936.YahooMailClassic@web114409.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.52.1332173978.17650.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <1332180442.84936.YahooMailClassic@web114409.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAOJFdb+m=VYJdxvpOXW1ONjT5vS3dMkQarLC1Ep+TExj7EAL9Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Mar 19, 2012 at 2:07 PM, Ben Zaiboc <bbenzai at yahoo.com> wrote:
> "spike" <spike66 at att.net> asked:
>> Unrelated question: ?Whenever Jesus found himself in a moral or ethical
>> dilemma, would he ask himself, "What would I do?"
>
> No, I reckon Jesus, if he existed, would have to ask himself: "What would Chuck Norris do?"

Similarly, when startled or flabbergasted says "Oh my Dad"



From pj at pj-manney.com  Tue Mar 20 05:11:35 2012
From: pj at pj-manney.com (PJ Manney)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 22:11:35 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: [ieet-news] The latest on Mike's disappearance
In-Reply-To: <30A238FBA20C6B4FBC9EC4523A4105650154176EC4@exmb3.cmpcntr.tc.trincoll.edu>
References: <30A238FBA20C6B4FBC9EC4523A4105650154176EC4@exmb3.cmpcntr.tc.trincoll.edu>
Message-ID: <CAJrtBE1zfTfrcYU0xLe6=bSe+uQF-7OPT_hmACS=XSh7wD6Z7g@mail.gmail.com>

Below is the latest information from Mike Treder's sister regarding his
disappearance.

It took a local Detroit Fox news report to get the Detroit Police and FBI
to finally take an interest in the case.  Please take a look at both.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-VQc-5x2AQ&feature=youtu.be

http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/dpp/news/local/friend-worried-after-new-york-city-man-visiting-detroit-vanishes-20120319-ms

PJ

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Hughes, James J. <James.Hughes at trincoll.edu>
Date: Mon, Mar 19, 2012 at 5:26 PM
Subject: [ieet-news] The latest on Mike's disappearance
To: "ieet-news at ieet.org" <ieet-news at ieet.org>
Cc: "ieet at ieet.org" <ieet at ieet.org>


Mike's sister:

We know now that Mike had room service for dinner Wed night and breakfast
in the Doubletree hotel Thursday morning. His phone has been going straight
to voicemail since at least Friday and there have been no calls received or
made out since Wed evening when he called Marianne to tell her he'd arrived
safely.

The last email Mike sent from his account was on Tuesday evening to his
pregnant daughter. There's nothing in his email that points to anything
wrong.

All his stuff was in his hotel room except his cell phone and laptop, and
(I'd think) whatever clothes he was wearing. Mike was strange sometimes but
they'd probably have noticed if he left the hotel naked.

The news coverage served to get the police involved and in fact the Detroit
Chief of Police called me today to say that they will be doing everything
they can to find Mike, including working with the FBI. Hopefully with their
resources we'll be able to resolve this.

-----------------------

J. Hughes:

The one big mystery is what he was doing at a high school science fair that
he wasn't speaking at or judging. My suspicion is that he was following a
job lead since he had been looking for work. If we can figure out who he
was meeting then we might get more detail on where he would have been.
_______________________________________________
ieet-news mailing list
ieet-news at ieet.org
https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/ieet-news
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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Tue Mar 20 10:55:06 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2012 11:55:06 +0100
Subject: [ExI] h+ in smithsonian
In-Reply-To: <CAHUTwkPWyj9TgBpi9-6Aeu_1wC-7omzK0K1vcwm9gS_8EPFrGQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <007b01cd053a$4869fcc0$d93df640$@att.net>
 <CAHUTwkPWyj9TgBpi9-6Aeu_1wC-7omzK0K1vcwm9gS_8EPFrGQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a4BGTf8+TDj-t4dkaL0CLWTL7nhTR8mcO-w0hPK8N1aGQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 19 March 2012 00:09, Jeff Davis <jrd1415 at gmail.com> wrote:

> 2012/3/18 spike <spike66 at att.net>:
> >
> http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/How-to-Become-the-Engineers-of-Our-Own-Evolution.html?utm_source=smithsonianfuturism&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=201203-futurism
>
> From the article:
> "...Transhumanists say we are morally obligated to help the human race
> transcend its biological limits..."
>
> How many agree with this?  The moral obligation part.  Feels a bit
> evangelical to me, a bit pushy, a bit intrusive, but that's just me.
> No doubt there's a range of views re the obligatory nature of helping
> others or ***ALL*** humanity to transcend.
>

Crucial issue indeed.

I am personally more than happy with the statement "We are morally
obligated to help the human race transcend its biological limits", meaning
that I adhere to an ethical system where the main command is "Thou shalt
overcome yourself and go beyond your current limits", so that as a
transhumanist I feel bound to push forward the process that already
delivered, say, hominisation and the neolithic revolution, by taking into
my hands my futher evolution in a sense and on a scale never seen before.

What about "We are morally obligated to make all humanity to transcend?"

This statement would be "not even wrong" IMHO, because from a posthumanist
point of view there are no such things as "humanity" in a moral sense, but
only people and groups thereof with their own different views of what
transcendence may mean and whether it should be pursued at all. Not to
mention that as David Pearce is keen to point out, there is no absolute
reasons why we should take such a specieist stance, so that, say, a
brainless newborn should take precedence upon a healthy, adult chimp.

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Tue Mar 20 11:27:11 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2012 12:27:11 +0100
Subject: [ExI] h+ in smithsonian
In-Reply-To: <CAPoR7a4BGTf8+TDj-t4dkaL0CLWTL7nhTR8mcO-w0hPK8N1aGQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <007b01cd053a$4869fcc0$d93df640$@att.net>
 <CAHUTwkPWyj9TgBpi9-6Aeu_1wC-7omzK0K1vcwm9gS_8EPFrGQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a4BGTf8+TDj-t4dkaL0CLWTL7nhTR8mcO-w0hPK8N1aGQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a7MH+Dw6t2o6tht3uLhT7aHbeJeWjj_MWOfzzox-Rm_ZA@mail.gmail.com>

On 20 March 2012 11:55, Stefano Vaj <stefano.vaj at gmail.com> wrote:

> What about "We are morally obligated to make all humanity to transcend?"
>

This makes me think, btw, of Egan's Diaspora scenario, where earth is
inhabited by different posthuman cultures, including one kind or another of
an uploaded polis, robotic ones, genetically-enhanced communities, even a
few who have made use of technology to relinquish anthropomorphic
"intelligence".

At a point in time, a threat is discovered that is going to sterilise the
earth for good, and if my recollection is good, at least some of those who
were not part of an uploaded polis are forced to upload - something which
may well correspond to murder in their own view - out of some "moral
obligation" to do so.

Now, this squarely falls in the *humanist* perspective, which has been
dominant in the West for some 1,500 years now, that implies the existence
of eternal, but above all universal and "objective", values that are the
reflection of the mind of God or of some thinly revarnished secular avatars
thereof, such as "natural law".

--
Stefano Vaj
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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Tue Mar 20 11:39:17 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2012 12:39:17 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Unrelated Question (was: Re: h+ in smithsonian)
In-Reply-To: <1332180442.84936.YahooMailClassic@web114409.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.52.1332173978.17650.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <1332180442.84936.YahooMailClassic@web114409.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a7_L0J=35+2zhtgpn3iDEs95C=HijOD5h3oc3toGb7vtQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 19 March 2012 19:07, Ben Zaiboc <bbenzai at yahoo.com> wrote:

> "spike" <spike66 at att.net> asked:
>
> > Unrelated question:  Whenever Jesus found himself in a moral or ethical
> > dilemma, would he ask himself, "What would I do?"
>
>
> No, I reckon Jesus, if he existed, would have to ask himself: "What would
> Chuck Norris do?"
>

This, btw, is a classical example of the unnerving imprecision of modern
English.

According to old grammars, if I am not mistaken,"what would I do?" means
"what is it that I want to do?", "what would I like to do?", as it would
(should?) otherwise be "what should I do?".

For Chuck Norrris, being He a Third Person, the rule should be the reverse,
or...

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From eugen at leitl.org  Tue Mar 20 11:48:17 2012
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2012 12:48:17 +0100
Subject: [ExI] h+ in smithsonian
In-Reply-To: <CAPoR7a7MH+Dw6t2o6tht3uLhT7aHbeJeWjj_MWOfzzox-Rm_ZA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <007b01cd053a$4869fcc0$d93df640$@att.net>
 <CAHUTwkPWyj9TgBpi9-6Aeu_1wC-7omzK0K1vcwm9gS_8EPFrGQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a4BGTf8+TDj-t4dkaL0CLWTL7nhTR8mcO-w0hPK8N1aGQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a7MH+Dw6t2o6tht3uLhT7aHbeJeWjj_MWOfzzox-Rm_ZA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120320114817.GV9891@leitl.org>

On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 12:27:11PM +0100, Stefano Vaj wrote:

> At a point in time, a threat is discovered that is going to sterilise the
> earth for good, and if my recollection is good, at least some of those who
> were not part of an uploaded polis are forced to upload - something which
> may well correspond to murder in their own view - out of some "moral
> obligation" to do so.

The same applies if Earth is to become uninhabitable as the result
of collective action of the postbiota, most of them outside of the
gravity well. A dilemma arises among these who want to give a last
opportunity for lift to these left behind: what is coercion? Is
the informed consent really that? 

I personally would decide on a case to case basis, and unvoluntarily
upload these who do not appear to be really making an informed consent --
giving an opportunity to opt out again (self-terminate) after some
acclimatization period.
 
> Now, this squarely falls in the *humanist* perspective, which has been
> dominant in the West for some 1,500 years now, that implies the existence
> of eternal, but above all universal and "objective", values that are the
> reflection of the mind of God or of some thinly revarnished secular avatars
> thereof, such as "natural law".


From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Tue Mar 20 12:00:05 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2012 13:00:05 +0100
Subject: [ExI] h+ in smithsonian
In-Reply-To: <20120320114817.GV9891@leitl.org>
References: <007b01cd053a$4869fcc0$d93df640$@att.net>
 <CAHUTwkPWyj9TgBpi9-6Aeu_1wC-7omzK0K1vcwm9gS_8EPFrGQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a4BGTf8+TDj-t4dkaL0CLWTL7nhTR8mcO-w0hPK8N1aGQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a7MH+Dw6t2o6tht3uLhT7aHbeJeWjj_MWOfzzox-Rm_ZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120320114817.GV9891@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a4s0k+Uj+93fTKGrAhCtPmTLm1xC_S+j94JiJD5Xs6g0g@mail.gmail.com>

On 20 March 2012 12:48, Eugen Leitl <eugen at leitl.org> wrote:

> On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 12:27:11PM +0100, Stefano Vaj wrote:The same
> applies if Earth is to become uninhabitable as the result
> of collective action of the postbiota, most of them outside of the
> gravity well. A dilemma arises among these who want to give a last
> opportunity for lift to these left behind: what is coercion? Is
> the informed consent really that?
>

I am afraid that down this slope there is no real stopping point. Why
should personal risks be dealt with any differently from planetary ones?
What about somebody who is dying from cancer? Somebody who is simply dying
from aging? Somebody who by being "into" a biological body is exposed to
fatal threats at any minute of his or her day?

I personally would decide on a case to case basis, and unvoluntarily
> upload these who do not appear to be really making an informed consent --
> giving an opportunity to opt out again (self-terminate) after some
> acclimatization period.
>

Hey, I am not saying that scenarios do not exist when I would myself opt
for some level of coercion - I am all in favour, eg, of compulsory mass
vaccination whenever a persuasive case can be presented of their
opportunity. Heck, Darwinian pressures in terms of competition from
individuals and communities having opted for different solutions are a form
of coercion themselves, after all.

What I am strongly opposed to is the idea that coercion is a "moral duty",
as in time-honoured monotheistic tradition of the moral duty to kill others
to save them from themselves which is still oh so popular in contemporary
international politics.

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From dan_ust at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 20 14:33:14 2012
From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2012 07:33:14 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Unrelated Question
In-Reply-To: <CAPoR7a7_L0J=35+2zhtgpn3iDEs95C=HijOD5h3oc3toGb7vtQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.52.1332173978.17650.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <1332180442.84936.YahooMailClassic@web114409.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
 <CAPoR7a7_L0J=35+2zhtgpn3iDEs95C=HijOD5h3oc3toGb7vtQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1332253994.60019.YahooMailNeo@web160603.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

On Tuesday, March 20, 2012 7:39 AM Stefano Vaj <stefano.vaj at gmail.com> wrote:
> This, btw, is a classical example of the unnerving imprecision of modern English.

All "natural" languages, including pre-Modern? English, are imprecise. They just have different ways of being imprecise. And people tend to get along fine with them, despite these imprecisions.

Regards,

Dan
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From pharos at gmail.com  Tue Mar 20 15:22:51 2012
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2012 15:22:51 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Unrelated Question
In-Reply-To: <1332253994.60019.YahooMailNeo@web160603.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.52.1332173978.17650.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <1332180442.84936.YahooMailClassic@web114409.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
 <CAPoR7a7_L0J=35+2zhtgpn3iDEs95C=HijOD5h3oc3toGb7vtQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <1332253994.60019.YahooMailNeo@web160603.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armjMueryu04y1W1fidtHq2UGLnfwsrJ3xOTSpxLpKzf4UA@mail.gmail.com>

2012/3/20 Dan wrote:
> All "natural" languages, including pre-Modern? English, are imprecise. They
> just have different ways of being imprecise. And people tend to get along
> fine with them, despite these imprecisions.
>
>

There are now over a million words in English so you have plenty of
ways to be imprecise.
Unfortunately only about 400,000 have made it into dictionaries and
the average educated English speaker only uses about 50,000 words.
(Modern teens use far less of course, some estimate around 1,000
words)  ;)

<http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304459804577285610212146258.html>
The New Science of the Birth and Death of Words
Have physicists discovered the evolutionary laws of language in
Google's library?


BillK



From spike66 at att.net  Tue Mar 20 15:28:26 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2012 08:28:26 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Unrelated Question (was: Re: h+ in smithsonian)
In-Reply-To: <CAPoR7a7_L0J=35+2zhtgpn3iDEs95C=HijOD5h3oc3toGb7vtQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.52.1332173978.17650.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <1332180442.84936.YahooMailClassic@web114409.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
 <CAPoR7a7_L0J=35+2zhtgpn3iDEs95C=HijOD5h3oc3toGb7vtQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <004b01cd06ae$18c25ec0$4a471c40$@att.net>

 

 

From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Stefano Vaj
Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2012 4:39 AM
To: ExI chat list
Subject: Re: [ExI] Unrelated Question (was: Re: h+ in smithsonian)

 

On 19 March 2012 19:07, Ben Zaiboc <bbenzai at yahoo.com> wrote:

"spike" <spike66 at att.net> asked:

> Unrelated question:  Whenever Jesus found himself in a moral or ethical
> dilemma, would he ask himself, "What would I do?"


This, btw, is a classical example of the unnerving imprecision of modern
English. -- Stefano Vaj

 

On the contrary, it is an example of a nerving precision of modern English.
Note that Jesus did not speak modern English, but rather 16th century
English, with all its thees and thous, and of course the ever popular ye,
which entertains the kids to no end.  They keep it up until you want to
throttle the lot of them.  What I meant was, he might say, "What would I do,
if I were me, in this situation."  Of course he eventually realized that he
was he, in that situation.  Hilarity ensued.  This is thought to have been
what was going on when he uttered the comment in John 8 verse 58, ".before
Abraham was born, I am."

 

Hey Stefano, you are from Italy, you should know all this.  Don't you
Italian guys have some kind of big religion thing over there somewhere,
what's it called, the Sixteen Chapel or something?  I Have never been there,
but I hear they have several thousand dollars worth of paintings on the
ceiling alone.

 

spike

 

 

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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Tue Mar 20 16:36:16 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2012 17:36:16 +0100
Subject: [ExI] IMPORTANT!! Francis Fukuyama interviews Peter Thiel
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a4y1rs5YiLzy3NPZXSsNFA-4wWbvHiD9rhNdofKfecsMg@mail.gmail.com>

http://www.the-american-interest.com/article.cfm?piece=1187

>From the March/April 2012 issue: A Conversation with Peter Thiel Francis
Fukuyama talks with the renowned entrepreneur.

Francis Fukuyama: I?d like to begin by asking you about a point you made
about there being certain liberal and conservative blind spots about
America. What did you mean by that?

Peter Thiel: On the surface, one of the debates we have is that people on
the Left, especially the Occupy Wall Street movement, focus on income and
wealth inequality issues?the 99 percent versus the 1 percent. It?s evident
that both forms of inequality have escalated at a very high rate. Probably
from 1973 to today, they have gone up faster than they did in the 19th
century. The rapid rise in inequality has been an issue that the Right has
not been willing to engage. It tends either to say it?s not true or that it
doesn?t matter. That?s a very strange blind spot. Obviously if you
extrapolate an exponential function it can go a lot further. We?re now at
an extreme comparable to 1913 or 1928; on a worldwide basis we?ve probably
surpassed the 1913 highs and are closer to 1789 levels.

In the history of the modern world, inequality has only been ended through
communist revolution, war or deflationary economic collapse. It?s a
disturbing question which of these three is going to happen today, or if
there?s a fourth way out. On the Right, the Tea Party argument has been
about government corruption?not ethical violations necessarily, but
inefficiency, that government can?t do anything right and wastes money. I
believe that is true, and that this problem has gotten dramatically worse.
There are ways that the government is working far less well than it used
to. Just outside my office is the Golden Gate Bridge. It was built under
FDR?s Administration in the 1930s in about three and a half years. They?re
currently building an access highway on one of the tunnels that feeds into
the bridge, and it will take at least six years to complete.

Francis Fukuyama: And it will require countless environmental permits,
litigation, and so on.

Peter Thiel: Yes. There?s an overall sense that in many different domains
the government is working incredibly inefficiently and poorly. On the
foreign policy side you can flag the wars in the Middle East, which have
cost a lot more than we thought they should have. You can point to
quasi-governmental things like spending on health care and education, where
costs are spinning out of control. There?s some degree to which government
is doing the same for more, or doing less for the same. There?s a very big
blind spot on the Left about government waste and inefficiency.

In some ways these two debates, though they seem very different, ought to
be seen as two sides of the same coin. The question is, should rich people
keep their money or should the government take it? The anti-rich argument
is, ?Yes, because they already have too much.? The anti-government argument
is, ?No, because the government would just waste it.?

I think if you widen the aperture a bit on the economic level, though I
identify with the libertarian Right, I do think it is incumbent on us to
rethink the history of the past forty years. In particular, the Reagan
history of the 1980s needs to be rethought thoroughly. One perspective is
that the libertarian, small-government view is not a timeless truth but was
a contingent response to the increasing failure of government, which was
manifesting itself in the late 1960s and early 1970s. The response was that
resources should be kept in the private sector. Then economic theories,
like Laffer?s supply-side economics, provided political support for that
response, even if they weren?t entirely accurate. We can say that the
economic theories didn?t work as advertised, but for Obama to try to undo
Reagan-era policies, he would have to deal with the political realities
those theories were confronting. We cannot simply say things went wrong
with credit creation in the 1980s; we also have to deal with government
malfunction in the 1970s.

So you have these two different blind spots on the Left and Right, but I?ve
been more interested in their common blind spot, which we?re less likely to
discuss as a society: technological deceleration and the question of
whether we?re still living in a technologically advancing society at all. I
believe that the late 1960s was not only a time when government stopped
working well and various aspects of our social contract began to fray, but
also when scientific and technological progress began to advance much more
slowly. Of course, the computer age, with the internet and web 2.0
developments of the past 15 years, is an exception. Perhaps so is finance,
which has seen a lot of innovation over the same period (too much
innovation, some would argue).

There has been a tremendous slowdown everywhere else, however. Look at
transportation, for example: Literally, we haven?t been moving any faster.
The energy shock has broadened to a commodity crisis. In many other areas
the present has not lived up to the lofty expectations we had. I think the
advanced economies of the world fundamentally grow through technological
progress, and as their rate of progress slows, they will have less growth.
This creates incredible pressures on our political systems. I think the
political system at its core works when it crafts compromises in which most
people benefit most of the time. When there?s no growth, politics becomes a
zero-sum game in which there?s a loser for every winner. Most of the losers
will come to suspect that the winners are involved in some kind of racket.
So I think there?s a close link between technological deceleration and
increasing cynicism and pessimism about politics and economics.

I think, therefore, that our problems are completely misdiagnosed. The
debates are all about macroeconomics, about how much money we should print.
I think you can print more money and have inflation, or stop printing money
and have deflation. Bad inflation involves commodity prices and inputs, and
bad deflation involves people?s wages, salaries and house prices. But the
middle-way Goldilocks version, where commodity prices and consumer goods go
down and wages go up, seems very farfetched. I don?t see how that sort of
outcome can be crafted in a world with no growth.

Francis Fukuyama: I understand you?re part of the inspiration behind Tyler
Cowen?s book The Great Stagnation. Apart from being a former colleague of
mine, he?s on the editorial board of The American Interest.

Peter Thiel: He did very graciously dedicate the book to me, and it?s an
incredibly powerful articulation of this theme on many different levels. I
think the question of technological dynamism isn?t often examined, but when
you look into it you see many problems, from transportation failures to the
space program and the Concorde decommissioning to how the energy failure
allows oil price shocks to undo the price improvements of the previous
century. Think of the famous 1980 Paul Ehrlich-Julian Simon wager about
resource scarcity. Simon may have won the bet a decade later, but since
1993, on a rolling decade basis, Ehrlich has been winning famously. This is
something that has not registered with the political class at all.

Francis Fukuyama: That?s an early sign that we may be moving into a
zero-sum world.

You made your fortune initially in Silicon Valley. Your assertions may
raise a lot of eyebrows, because skeptics would say, ?What about the whole
boom of the 1980s?? There?s that famous Robert Solow quote from 1987, ?You
can see the computer age everywhere but in the productivity statistics.?1
Econometricians finally began detecting that productivity jump in a more
significant way in the 1990s. I would think that rather than arguing in
general that there has been a technological slowdown, the more socially
important argument is that the distributional impact of all the
cutting-edge technological changes that have occurred over the past
generation go overwhelmingly to the smart and well-educated. If you had
great math skills during the agrarian economy of the 19th century, there
weren?t many jobs where you could exploit that and get really rich. Now you
can go to Wall Street or become a software programmer. So there?s something
about the progress we?ve had that has overlain the increasing inequality
you?ve pointed to.

Peter Thiel: I don?t entirely agree with that description. My claim is not
that there has been no technological progress, just deceleration. If we
look at technological progress during most of the 19th and 20th centuries,
it brought significant disruption. If you built horse buggies for a living,
you would be out of work when the Ford Motor Company came along. In effect,
over time labor was freed up to do more productive things. And on the
whole, people got to be better off. I think the larger trend is just that
there has been stagnation. There are debates about how to precisely measure
these statistics, but the ones I?ve looked at suggest that median wages
since 1973 have been mostly flat. Mean wages have gone up maybe 20?25
percent, which is the greater inequality, an anemic 0.6?0.7 per year. And
if you confiscated the wealth of all the billionaires in the United States,
the amount would pay for the deficits for only six months. There has been
this increase in inequality, but it?s a secondary truth. The primary truth
is this truth of stagnation.

As for why inequality has gone up, you could point to the technology, as
you just have. You could also point to financialization of the economy, but
I would say globalization has played a much greater role because it has
been the much greater trend. Even though there have been a lot of bumps in
the road, your ?End of History? strikes me as very much true today.
Globalization has been incredibly powerful, far more so than people could
have realistically expected in 1970. The question is, what is there about
globalization that creates a winner-take-all world? There certainly has
been a labor arbitrage with China that has been bad for the middle class,
as well as for white-collar workers, in the past decade or two.

Consider, too, that in 1960 we spoke of the First World and the Third
World; today we speak of the developed world and the developing world, the
part that is looking to copy the West. The developed world is where we
expect nothing more to happen. The earlier dichotomy was fairly
pro-technology and in some ways more agnostic on the prospects for
globalization. The present dichotomy is extremely bullish on globalization
and implicitly pessimistic about technology. Of course, we can point to the
great fortunes that have been made in the tech industry, but of the great
fortunes that have been made in the world over the past twenty or thirty
years, most have not been made in technology. Look at the Russian
oligarchs. Maybe one out of a hundred billionaires has a tech-related
fortune. The others are a political thing linked somehow to globalization.
So that?s why I think it?s important to quantify these things correctly. We
tend to focus a lot on the optimistic tech narrative that notes a lot of
progress, but I think the more important question is why it hasn?t been
happening.

There certainly are a lot of areas of technology where, if it were
progressing, we would expect a lot of jobs to be created. The classic
example would be clean technology, alternate energy technology. If you were
to retool the economy toward more efficient forms of energy, one would
realistically expect that to create millions of jobs. The problem with that
retooling is that the clean technology just doesn?t work?namely, it doesn?t
do more for less. It costs much more, so it isn?t working?at least not yet.


Francis Fukuyama: Thinking again about inequality, the problem isn?t that
people are lazy. It?s not that working-class people don?t have a work
ethic. In a sense they?re victimized by the advances of technology and
globalization and so forth. The classic response to that is to urge the
state to protect them. Take Karl Polanyi?s view that these forces can?t be
defeated or pushed back, but that there must be some form of guided social
adjustment, because society on its own adjusts much less quickly than
underlying technology and trade patterns change. But then, if you say we?re
stuck because the government can?t do anything, there isn?t a solution. Or
at least there isn?t the classic solution: more redistribution and active
labor market policies like they have in Scandinavia, which arrange for
worker retraining.

In terms of clean tech, I think the classic infant-industry argument might
apply here. It?s true that it isn?t competitive with fossil fuel technology
right now, but we?re walking very rapidly down a cost curve, especially in
solar tech. Governments have provided a certain amount of help in
commercializing technologies. Certainly the Chinese have been doing this
big time, which is why they?ve undermined our alternative energy
industries. Where do you stand on that kind of intervention?

Peter Thiel: We have different kinds of challenges on the government side.
One is a little more philosophical in nature: We tend to think the future
is indeterminate. But it used to be seen as a much more determinate thing
and subject to rational planning. If it?s fundamentally unknowable, it
doesn?t make sense to say anything about it. To put it in mathematical
terms, we?ve had a shift from thinking of the world in terms of calculus to
statistics. So, where we once tracked the motions of the heavenly bodies
and could send Voyager to Jupiter over a multiyear trajectory, now we tend
to think nature is fundamentally driven by the random movements of atoms or
the Black-Scholes mathematical model of financial markets?the random walk
down Wall Street. You can?t know where things are going; you only know
they?re going to be random. I think some things are true about this
statistical view of the future, but it?s extremely toxic for any kind of
rational planning. It?s probably linked in part to the failure of state
communist central planning, though I would argue that there is something to
be said for some planning over no planning. We should debate whether it
should be decentralized or centralized, but what the United States has
today is an extremely big government, a quasi-socialist government, but
without a five-year plan, with no plan whatsoever.

If you were to telescope this now down to a single issue like clean energy,
the unplanned statistical view of the future is that we don?t know what
energy technology will work, so we?ll experiment with different things and
see what takes off. The planned view says that two are most likely to be
dominant, and so the government has a role to play in coordinating
resources and making sure they work. So if it?s nuclear power, it has to
free up space at Yucca Mountain, deal with zoning rules and get plants
built, and it?s a complicated project at the regulatory level. The same is
true of solar or wind power. If government wants high-speed rail, it must
overcome local zoning rules. My guess is that at best we can push on just a
handful of these major things, but that sort of determinate push requires a
view of the future that is very specific, and that?s not now the kind of
view people have.

The Solyndra bankruptcy is a detailed example of this. It strikes me that
the Obama Administration?s response should have been, ?Well, Solyndra
failed, but here are two or three companies we awarded loan guarantees that
are working great.? They didn?t give that response. There?s a bad
explanation and a worse explanation for that. The bad explanation is that
none of these companies are working. The worse explanation?the one I
believe is true?is that no one at a senior level in the Administration even
thinks about the question of technology. It?s assumed to be a statistical,
probabilistic thing that?s best figured out by portfolio allocations of
capital to different researchers, and not a worthwhile subject to think
about. This is a radically different position than, say, that of John F.
Kennedy, who could talk about the nuts and bolts of the Apollo space
program and all the details of what was needed to make it happen. So it?s a
much different way of thinking about the future.

If there is going to be a government role in getting innovation started,
people have to believe philosophically that it?s possible to plan. That?s
not the world we?re living in. A letter from Einstein to the White House
would get lost in the mail room today. Nobody would think that any single
person would have that kind of expertise.

Francis Fukuyama: Well, clearly, Silicon Valley was in many ways the
product of a government industrial policy, DARPA. So much of the early
technology, the creation of the internet itself, the early semiconductor
industry, were really spinoffs from investments in military technology that
were obviously pushed very strongly by the government.

Peter Thiel: My libertarian views are qualified because I do think things
worked better in the 1950s and 60s, but it?s an interesting question as to
what went wrong with DARPA. It?s not like it has been defunded, so why has
DARPA been doing so much less for the economy than it did forty or fifty
years ago? Parts of it have become politicized. You can?t just write checks
to the thirty smartest scientists in the United States. Instead there are
bureaucratic processes, and I think the politicization of science?where a
lot of scientists have to write grant applications, be subject to peer
review, and have to get all these people to buy in?all this has been toxic,
because the skills that make a great scientist and the skills that make a
great politician are radically different. There are very few people who are
both great scientists and great politicians. So a conservative account of
what happened with science in the 20th century is that we had a
decentralized, non-governmental approach all the way through the 1930s and
early 1940s. At that point, the government could accelerate and push things
tremendously, but only at the price of politicizing it over a series of
decades. Today we have a hundred times more scientists than we did in 1920,
but their productivity per capita is less that it used to be.

Francis Fukuyama: You certainly can?t explain the survival of the shuttle
program except in political terms.

Peter Thiel: It was an extraordinary program. It cost more and did less and
was probably less safe than the original Apollo program. In 2011, when it
finally ended, there was a sense of the space age being over. Not quite,
but it?s very far off from what we had decades ago. You could argue that we
had more or better-targeted funding in the 1950s and 1960s, but the other
place where the regulatory situation is radically different is that
technology is much more heavily regulated than it used to be. It?s much
harder to get a new drug through the FDA process. It takes a billion
dollars. I don?t even know if you could get the polio vaccine approved
today.

One regulatory perspective is that environmentalism has played a much
greater role than people think. It induced a deep skepticism about anything
involving the manipulation of nature or material objects in the real world.
The response to environmentalism was to prohibit scientists from
experimenting with stuff and only allow them to do so with bits. So
computer science and finance were legal, and what they have in common is
that they involve the manipulation of bits rather than stuff. They both did
well in those forty years, but all the other engineering disciplines were
stymied. Electric engineering, civil engineering, aeronautical, nuclear,
petroleum?these were all held back, and attracted fewer talented students
at university as the years went on. When people wonder why all the rocket
scientists went to work on Wall Street, well, they were no longer able to
build rockets. It?s some combination of an ossified, Weberian bureaucracy
and the increasingly hostile regulation of technology. That?s very
different from the 1950s and 1960s. There?s a powerful libertarian argument
that government used to be far less intrusive, but found targeted ways to
advance science and technology.

Francis Fukuyama: Let?s talk about the social impact of these changes.
Those stagnating median wages basically translate into a guy who had been
working in the auto industry or the steel industry at $15 or $20 an hour
but is now a very downwardly mobile checker at Walmart. So does the
government have a role in protecting that kind of individual? If, as you
say, we?re up to 1789 levels of inequality, this could be a socially
explosive situation?perhaps not now, but down the road. The classic
response of many capitalists is that you have to save capitalism from its
own excesses by some form of redistribution or protecting the people hurt
by it.

Peter Thiel: I think most government welfare spending does not actually go
to poor people. I don?t have a problem with the amount of money going to
poor people, and perhaps we could do somewhat more. There are some very
out-of-the-box solutions we could explore, such as a more protectionist
trade policy, which would effectively raise taxes through tariffs and
protect a range of domestic jobs. Even though that?s an inefficient move
from a certain economic perspective, perhaps it?s a better way to raise
taxes than a variety of other means. The argument has been that hampering
free trade distorts markets, but every tax distorts markets, so you need to
make a relative argument, not an absolute one.

The reality is that most government entitlements are middle-class in
nature: social security, Medicare, a lot of the education pieces. One type
of reform would be to means-test all entitlement spending, but you then run
into these difficult political problems. My larger view is that all these
fixes are simply provisional. The overarching challenge is that all the
questions about how much the government should insulate people from what?s
going on depend on how far we are from equilibrium. Take, for instance,
competition with Japan in the 1970s, when people were being paid half as
much and it was disruptive to the car industry. Was there something we
could have done? Perhaps, but China has four times as many people and wages
at one-tenth of the U.S. level. The disequilibrium goes much further.

On the one hand, we should streamline the welfare state to help those who
are actually poor, as opposed to the middle class. But at the same time we
need to do more to make people aware of the need to compete globally. One
area where government has really failed is that its use of resources have
encouraged people not to even think about the worldwide stuff. The U.S.
government in 1965 made the American people much more aware of global
competition and global trade than they are today. The economy has shifted
from manufacturing to non-tradeable services. If you?re a lawyer, yes,
there?s some complicated way in which you?re subject to international
pressure, but you?ve basically chosen a career path that doesn?t force you
to compete globally. The same is true of a nurse, a yoga instructor, a
professor or a chef. So this skewing toward non-tradable service-sector
jobs has led to a political class that is weirdly immune to globalization
and mostly oblivious to it.

Francis Fukuyama: I agree with you that we?ve bought this line from the
economists for the past thirty that globalization is inevitably going to be
good without thinking through these points you raise.

I?d like to shift now to the question of biotech and biology. I know you?ve
been an investor in companies researching issues like longevity, a personal
interest of yours. This is one of those areas, I think, where there?s
conflict between an individual?s interest in living forever versus the
social good of population turnover. Steve Jobs said this in his 2005
Stanford commencement speech, that we should welcome death, because without
it people wouldn?t see much change. It?s like Max Planck?s old saying,
?Science progresses one funeral at a time.? Pick your discipline, and I
think that?s largely true. And actually, it seems like a lot of our fiscal
woes are due to the fact that people live too long now. We used to have
population pyramids; now they look more like Greek vases, with a big mass
of older people resting on a decelerating rate of population growth. So
isn?t the cumulative impact of advancing biomedical research into longevity
going to be to worsen every single one of the social problems you point to?

Peter Thiel: I don?t agree with the Steve Jobs commencement speech. I?m
deeply skeptical about any sort of rationalization of death. It?s tricky to
make the ethics too consequentialist, because even if it were true that
longevity is bankrupting the welfare state or the healthcare system, we
can?t unlearn the things we?ve learned. The goal of longevity research is
for people to live longer and healthier lives. If it succeeds, the key
thing is just to raise the retirement age. Retirement in many cases at age
65 is absurd given present life expectancy, which has been going up two and
a half years each decade. In 1840, 46 years was the maximum life expectancy
(among Swedish women); today it?s 86 years (among Japanese women). And
every day that you survive, your life expectancy goes up something like
five or six hours. So the policy calibration should be to have an automatic
increase of the retirement age by three months per year.

The secondary, more scientific question is whether the claims are correct
that these technologies are producing longer, healthy lives; perhaps
they?re producing longer, unhealthy lives. I think the truth involves some
of both. The average seventy-year-old is healthier, but at the margins
there are longer periods of suffering, such as with Alzheimer?s. About a
third of people age 85 have either Alzheimer?s or some incipient dementia.
If we can?t cure some of these late-stage ailments, there?s a prospect of a
very long period of debility before death. I think the jury is still out.

To take a step back, the entire longevity research program is the
culmination of the Western scientific project. It was part of Francis
Bacon?s New Atlantis, and has been a recurrent thread through much of the
past 400 years of science. I don?t think we can abandon it or carve it out
without abandoning technological progress altogether. It?s too closely
linked to it.

Francis Fukuyama: One of the concerns is with innovation. Part of what
produces innovation is generational turnover. You see this in academia all
the time. The people with the best ideas are younger professors. When you
get to be my age, you more or less stopped thinking 25 years ago. If you
live another 25 years, you?ll probably have the same dumb ideas you do
today. In a sense, there?s a remorseless evolutionary logic to the fact
that one generation has to grow up in different circumstances, adjust to
that and see the world differently.

Peter Thiel: One of the critical areas of research today is neurobiology.
The trickiest organ to deal with is the brain system. We can imagine
replacing other organs as they wear out with artificial ones, but you
wouldn?t want to have your brain replaced. So the longevity project must
look at brain functioning and find ways to improve it over time. I think
significant drug advances in neurobiology have happened over the past 15
years, and there?s good reason to believe we?ll see more progress in the
next few decades.

Even if mathematicians peak in their twenties, as you suggest, a
writer-philosopher has a long shelf-life, so you?ve picked a good career
path for the age of longevity. I still think the correct answer is to
figure out ways to acknowledge the fact, to address tenure and other
systems that privilege the old over the young.

Francis Fukuyama: Look at California, for instance, where we spend much
more on Medicare and pensions for the old than on K-12 education.

Peter Thiel: It?s a political problem, I agree, because old people vote and
young people do not or cannot. On the other hand, if you look at the
venture capital industry, it tends to allocate a lot of capital to younger
people who start companies. The university is a strangely problematic case
where it?s hard for young researchers to get funding. I think the public
sector is more broken than the private sector.

Francis Fukuyama: As a last topic, let?s turn to your thoughts on
education. You?ve made the case that many people overinvest in higher
education. So you offered fellowships to allow people to drop out and start
companies. Beyond that, what?s the agenda in terms of reforming the system?
More privatization? There was a recent piece about people connected to the
Obama Administration lobbying for less regulation of for-profit education.
It seems like that?s become a pretty politicized area. What?s the next step
in fixing this overinvestment problem?

Peter Thiel: Again, I look at this through my overarching view of forty
years of technological stagnation, and an attendant unawareness of it
because a series of bubbles have distracted us. There?s an education
bubble, which is, like the others, psychosocial. There?s a wide public
buy-in that leads to a product being overvalued because it?s linked to
future expectations that are unrealistic. Education is similar to the tech
bubble of the late 1990s, which assumed crazy growth in businesses that
didn?t pan out. The education bubble is predicated on the idea that the
education provided is incredibly valuable. In many cases that?s just not
true. Here and elsewhere people have avoided facing the fact of stagnation
by telling themselves stories about familiar things leading to progress.
One fake vector of progress is credentialing?first the undergraduate
degree, then more advanced degrees. Like the others, it?s an avoidance
mechanism.

The bias I had five years ago was that my foundation should start a new
university and just do everything better. I looked into it in great detail,
examining all the new universities that have been started throughout the
world in the past ten years, and found that very little has worked. It has
been a huge misallocation of capital, and donor intent got lost on all
sorts of levels. I started out wondering how you could allocate money for
the improvement of education and concluded that there was no way to do it.

This relates to the problem I mentioned earlier with taking a statistical,
unplanned approach to the future: A student doesn?t know what to do, so he
learns stuff. When I taught at Stanford Law School last year, I asked
students what they planned to do with their lives. Most were headed to big
law firms but didn?t expect to become partners and didn?t know the next
step after that. They didn?t have long-term plans about what they wanted to
achieve in their lives. I think the educational system has become a major
factor stopping people from thinking about the future. It?s far from
equilibrium. There is something like $1 trillion in student debt. A cynical
view is that that represents $1 trillion worth of lies told about the value
of higher education. There are incredible incentives to exaggerate its
value, and the counter-narrative has been shaky but is coming to the fore.
Bubbles end when people stop believing the false narrative and start
thinking for themselves. So many students are not getting the jobs they
need to repay their debts, are moving back in with their parents, and the
contract both parties signed up for is being revealed as false.

I don?t know exactly what will replace it. I suspect the for-profit schools
are like the subprime brokers. I?m not in favor of them and wouldn?t even
describe them as private-sector entities, since they?re so enmeshed in the
system of state educational subsidies. If you had a strong government that
worked, it would be fighting to break these bubbles. One of the reasons I?m
a libertarian is that our government does not act in a counter-cyclical
way. When bubbles are at their peak, it actually reinforces them?makes them
worse. Today, the courageous thing for the government to do would be to
aggressively tilt against the prevailing psychology, to encourage the
pursuit of non-college vocational careers rather than adding fuel to the
fire, as it has been doing.


Francis Fukuyama: One last question. The New Yorker profile of you
mentioned that you?ve been reading Leo Strauss. Why?

Peter Thiel: I?ve been interested in Strauss for a long time. I think
Strauss was a very important and profound thinker. His essay ?Persecution
and the Art of Writing? shows how in all societies certain ideas are not
allowed to be discussed. Properly understood, political correctness is our
greatest political problem. We always have this question of how to build a
society in which important problems can be thought through and tackled.
It?s a mistake to simply fixate on the problem of political correctness in
its narrow incarnation of campus speech codes; it?s a much more pervasive
problem. For instance, part of what fuels the education bubble is that
we?re not allowed to articulate certain truths about the inequality of
abilities. Many of our destructive bubbles are linked to political
correctness, and that?s why Strauss is so important today.

Francis Fukuyama: Excellent. Thank you very much.


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-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From dan_ust at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 20 16:22:56 2012
From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2012 09:22:56 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Unrelated Question
In-Reply-To: <004b01cd06ae$18c25ec0$4a471c40$@att.net>
References: <mailman.52.1332173978.17650.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <1332180442.84936.YahooMailClassic@web114409.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
 <CAPoR7a7_L0J=35+2zhtgpn3iDEs95C=HijOD5h3oc3toGb7vtQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <004b01cd06ae$18c25ec0$4a471c40$@att.net>
Message-ID: <1332260576.32041.YahooMailNeo@web160602.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

On Tuesday, March 20, 2012 11:28 AM spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> Hey Stefano, you are from Italy, you should know all this.? Don?t
> you Italian guys have some kind of big religion thing over there
> somewhere, what?s it called, the Sixteen Chapel or something?? I
> Have never been there, but I hear they have several thousand dollars
> worth of paintings on the ceiling alone.

I've been there. The real experience: high ceiling-ed (duh!) dark room, crowds of people, stuffy air though cooler than the rest of Vatican City by far*, and the shouting of guards saying not to take photos as people take photos. (In the other art halls at the Vatican, where one is allowed to take photos, the guards ominously yell, "No flash!")

Regards,

Dan

* Apparently, Romans don't like to actually use air conditioning.
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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Tue Mar 20 17:01:56 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2012 18:01:56 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Unrelated Question
In-Reply-To: <1332253994.60019.YahooMailNeo@web160603.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.52.1332173978.17650.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <1332180442.84936.YahooMailClassic@web114409.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
 <CAPoR7a7_L0J=35+2zhtgpn3iDEs95C=HijOD5h3oc3toGb7vtQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <1332253994.60019.YahooMailNeo@web160603.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a7u+VDopUBYjpSBKXvZb-TMOjfpRz2_Bm0typspt_kU6Q@mail.gmail.com>

2012/3/20 Dan <dan_ust at yahoo.com>

> On Tuesday, March 20, 2012 7:39 AM Stefano Vaj <stefano.vaj at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > This, btw, is a classical example of the unnerving imprecision of modern
> English.
>
> All "natural" languages, including pre-Modern  English, are imprecise.
> They just have different ways of being imprecise.
>

Of course you are right, and of course it does really make sense
linguistically to speak of "mistakes" that would correspond to converging
intuitions of contemporary native speakers.

Let us say however that periods and languages deferring to undisputed
authorities (say, the Academie Fran?aise or Fowler's King's English), and
to their "prescriptive" and rationalising efforts, make life easier to
non-natives when in doubt. :-)

--
Stefano Vaj
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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Tue Mar 20 17:38:27 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2012 18:38:27 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Unrelated Question (was: Re: h+ in smithsonian)
In-Reply-To: <004b01cd06ae$18c25ec0$4a471c40$@att.net>
References: <mailman.52.1332173978.17650.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <1332180442.84936.YahooMailClassic@web114409.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
 <CAPoR7a7_L0J=35+2zhtgpn3iDEs95C=HijOD5h3oc3toGb7vtQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <004b01cd06ae$18c25ec0$4a471c40$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a785oFcCZYQa7=qdo4_j_ZyHkJZB5Xzb0Ljw+hwCih5mA@mail.gmail.com>

2012/3/20 spike <spike66 at att.net>
> Hey Stefano, you are from Italy, you should know all this.? Don?t you
> Italian guys have some kind of big religion thing over there somewhere,
> what?s it called, the Sixteen Chapel or something?? I Have never been there,
> but I hear they have several thousand dollars worth of paintings on the
> ceiling alone.

:-))

--
Stefano Vaj



From dan_ust at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 20 17:40:23 2012
From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2012 10:40:23 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Unrelated Question
In-Reply-To: <CAPoR7a7u+VDopUBYjpSBKXvZb-TMOjfpRz2_Bm0typspt_kU6Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.52.1332173978.17650.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <1332180442.84936.YahooMailClassic@web114409.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
 <CAPoR7a7_L0J=35+2zhtgpn3iDEs95C=HijOD5h3oc3toGb7vtQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <1332253994.60019.YahooMailNeo@web160603.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <CAPoR7a7u+VDopUBYjpSBKXvZb-TMOjfpRz2_Bm0typspt_kU6Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1332265223.37480.YahooMailNeo@web160603.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

On Tuesday, March 20, 2012 1:01 PM Stefano Vaj <stefano.vaj at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> This, btw, is a classical example of the unnerving imprecision of modern English.
>>
>> All "natural" languages, including pre-Modern? English, are imprecise.
>> They just have different ways of being imprecise.
>
> Of course you are right, and of course it does really make sense
> linguistically to speak of "mistakes" that would correspond to
> converging intuitions of contemporary native speakers.

And this applies to all times. There are really no special periods here when people speak or write right and then the languange degenerates. That view is little different than how many people just presume things are always getting worse -- often locating an idyllic time either in their childhood, their grandparents' time, or some earlier epoch before modern dentistry was invented. :)

> Let us say however that periods and languages deferring to undisputed
> authorities (say, the Academie Fran?aise or Fowler's King's English),
> and to their "prescriptive" and rationalising efforts, make life easier
> to non-natives when in doubt. :-)

At best, that's merely the authority of some elite's dialect -- likely one not all members of the elite follow -- and it tends to change in a generation or two. For instance, with British English today, RP is something you mostly use not so much to teach non-English speakers English, but for actors doing roles in period plays and films.

Of course, part of this change has to do with tolerating if not celebrating more dialects, but even without this it's doubtful that the elites in one era speak the same as the elites in another. And the usual reason these elites' dialects become standard is because of their political or economic power -- not so much because of their dialect being better. To be sure, though RP was probably better for anyone to master than a hundreds of local dialects of English and it's likely some ease of learning weighs in the balance. But ease of learning and use often streamline a dialect too, such that a standard dialect will become easier to learn and use simply because more people use it and chop off all the little idiosyncracies. If this is so, then one might expect had the Jordie dialect, by some fluke of history, been the standard rather than RP decades ago, it, too, would've been streamlined and altered over time...

And I'm sure the same processes are at work in other languages.

Regards,

Dan
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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Tue Mar 20 18:01:26 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2012 19:01:26 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Unrelated Question
In-Reply-To: <1332265223.37480.YahooMailNeo@web160603.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.52.1332173978.17650.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <1332180442.84936.YahooMailClassic@web114409.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
 <CAPoR7a7_L0J=35+2zhtgpn3iDEs95C=HijOD5h3oc3toGb7vtQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <1332253994.60019.YahooMailNeo@web160603.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <CAPoR7a7u+VDopUBYjpSBKXvZb-TMOjfpRz2_Bm0typspt_kU6Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <1332265223.37480.YahooMailNeo@web160603.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a7GGGu=8BARdmD+eCcHxOkQAiruB5MQ-+iEqP16sW06pQ@mail.gmail.com>

2012/3/20 Dan <dan_ust at yahoo.com>:
> At best, that's merely the authority of some elite's dialect -- likely one
> not all members of the elite follow -- and it tends to change in a
> generation or two.

Or rather: the idealisation of the dialect spoken and written by the
authors of a given ?lite by the grammaticians of the subsequent
generation... :-)

-- 
Stefano Vaj



From nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Mar 20 21:01:08 2012
From: nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk (Tom Nowell)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2012 21:01:08 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [ExI] Elon Musk on Mars travel
In-Reply-To: <mailman.68.1332261385.17650.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.68.1332261385.17650.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <1332277268.23029.YahooMailNeo@web132101.mail.ird.yahoo.com>

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-17439490?


Elon Musk says you could get to mars for $500k in a mature travel system. This may be bluster from a recent contender in privatised space transport, but it's good to see this making mainstream media.

Tom
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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Tue Mar 20 21:44:26 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2012 22:44:26 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Elon Musk on Mars travel
In-Reply-To: <1332277268.23029.YahooMailNeo@web132101.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.68.1332261385.17650.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <1332277268.23029.YahooMailNeo@web132101.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a4tT_G_o56eV8KB-+wvj=yS__7DpyG-USVO_jYEC83BEQ@mail.gmail.com>

2012/3/20 Tom Nowell <nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk>:
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-17439490
>
> Elon Musk says you could get to mars for $500k in a mature travel system.
> This may be bluster from a recent contender in privatised space transport,
> but it's good to see this making mainstream media.

At least, the man seems to have a vision...

-- 
Stefano Vaj


From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Tue Mar 20 20:56:01 2012
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2012 13:56:01 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Mike Treder is missing
In-Reply-To: <201203192223.q2JMNTsa021850@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <CAMp1VPDRXVyLpgWZwO85GiTMf4OpQ2yTJ-c7JCheUZTeXDffZQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <001101cd0581$3943d800$abcb8800$@cc>
 <201203192223.q2JMNTsa021850@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy1vK7tQOHaS4o2RPE-7eMZ+QspbrG9jSLj26n9KhkMHAg@mail.gmail.com>

I enjoyed my online friendship with Mike, who was always very patient with
my questions, and I am very worried about him.  I hope this matter turns
out okay, but I have my fears.


When I was in the Boy Scouts, I remember my scoutmaster telling the other
scouting leaders about how dangerous Detroit could be.  He had attended a
large engineering conference there, and his company advised all the
employees going to always travel outside the hotel and conference center in
groups of no smaller than six, and despite that, there were still
muggings!


I suppose Paul Verhoeven chose Detroit to be the setting for Robocop, due
to it's history of decay and crime.  Ironically, I had been hearing stories
of a sort of Bohemian hipster renaissance in the city, but that still does
not make it a safe place for visitors.


Mike seemed to have an easygoing confidence in himself that may have proved
his undoing.


John  : (





On Mon, Mar 19, 2012 at 3:23 PM, David Lubkin <lubkin at unreasonable.com>wrote:

> I passed the information on to one of my networks, and received this:
>
> Here's a link for Fox 2 Detroit's coverage which provides pictures of
>> Treder. The video here is probably from Sunday. Fox 2 ran a much more
>> informative video in Monday evening's broadcast, including the information
>> that his cell phone was last used at 6:29 pm on Wednesday. Also, some
>> conflicting information about his attendance at the conference. His luggage
>> was found in his hotel room.
>>
>
> http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/**dpp/news/local/missing-new-**
> yorker-last-seen-in-detroit<http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/dpp/news/local/missing-new-yorker-last-seen-in-detroit>
>
> For those of you on Facebook, Mike's page seems to be a Schilling
> Point for discussing news and concern.
>
> http://www.facebook.com/mike.**treder<http://www.facebook.com/mike.treder>
>
>
> -- David.
>
>
> ______________________________**_________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/**mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-**chat<http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat>
>
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From eugen at leitl.org  Wed Mar 21 13:15:02 2012
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2012 14:15:02 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Space-Based Solar Power
Message-ID: <20120321131502.GV9891@leitl.org>


(the only reason to get to space is when we run out of usabl3 land area)

http://physics.ucsd.edu/do-the-math/2012/03/space-based-solar-power/

Space-Based Solar Power

Posted on 2012-03-20	

A solar panel reaps only a small portion of its potential due to night,
weather, and seasons, simultaneously introducing intermittency so that
large-scale storage is required to make solar power work at a large scale. A
perennial proposition for surmounting these impediments is that we launch
solar collectors into space?where the sun always shines, clouds are
impossible, and the tilt of the Earth?s axis is irrelevant. On Earth, a flat
panel inclined toward the south averages about 5 full-sun-equivalent hours
per day for typical locations, which is about a factor of five worse than
what could be expected in space. More importantly, the constancy of solar
flux in space reduces the need for storage?especially over seasonal
timescales. I love solar power. And I am connected to the space enterprise.
Surely putting the two together really floats my boat, no? No.

I?ll take a break from writing about behavioral adaptations and get back to
Do the Math roots with an evaluation of solar power from space and the giant
hurdles such a scheme would face. On balance, I don?t expect to see this
technology escape the realm of fantasy and find a place in our world. The
expense and difficulty are incommensurate with the gains.

How Much Better is Space?

First, let?s understand the ground-based alternative well enough to know what
space buys us. But in comparing ground-based solar to space-based solar, I
will depart from what I think may be the most practical/economic path for
ground-based solar. I do this because space-based solar adds so much expense
and complexity that we gain a large margin for upping the expense and
complexity on the ground as well.

For example, transmission of power from space-based solar installations would
likely be by microwave link to the ground. If we?re talking about sending
power 36,000 km from geosynchronous orbit, I presume we would not balk about
transporting it a few thousand kilometers across the surface of the Earth.
This allows us to put solar collectors in  hotspots, like the Desert
Southwest of the U.S. or Northern Africa to supply Europe. A flat panel
tilted south at latitude in the Mojave Desert of California would gather an
annual average of 6.6 full-sun-equivalent hours per day across the year,
varying from 5.2 to 7.4 across the months of the year, according to the NREL
redbook study.

Next, surely we would allow our fancy ground-based panels to articulate and
track the sun through the sky. One-axis tracking about a north-south axis
tilted to the site latitude improves our Mojave site to an annual average of
9.1 hours per day, ranging from 6.3 to 11.2 throughout the year. A step up in
complexity, two-axis tracking moves the yearly average to 9.4 hours per day,
ranging from 6.8 to 12.0 hours. We only gain a few percent in going from one
to two axes, because the one-axis tracker is always pointing within 23.5? of
the direction to the sun, and the cosine projection of this angle is never
less than 92%. In other words, it is useful to know that a simple one-axis
tracker does almost as well as a more sophisticated two-axis tracker.
Nonetheless, we will use the full-up two-axis performance against which to
benchmark the space gain.

On a yearly basis, then, getting continuous 24-hour solar illumination beats
the California desert by a factor of 2.6 averaged over the year, ranging from
2.0 in the summer to 3.5 in the winter. One of my points will be that
launching into space is a heck of a lot of work and expense to gain a factor
of three in exposure. It seems a good bet that it?s cheaper to build three
times as many panels and stick them on the ground. It?s not rocket science.

For technical accuracy, we would also want to correct for the atmosphere,
which takes a 21% hit for the energy available to a silicon photovoltaic (PV)
on the ground vs. space, using the 1.5 airmass standard.  Even though the
1347 W/m? solar constant in space is 35% larger than that on the ground, much
of the atmospheric absorption is at infrared wavelengths, where silicon PV is
ineffective.  But taking the 21% hit into account, we?ll just put the space
gain at a factor of three and call it close enough.

What follows can apply to straight-up PV panels as collectors, or to
concentrated reflectors so that less photovoltaic material is used. Once we
are comparing to two-axis tracking on the ground, concentration is on the
table.

Orbital Options

Are we indeed dealing with 24 hours of exposure in space? A common run-of-the
mill low-earth-orbit (LEO) satellite orbits at a height of about 500 km. At
this height, the earth-hugging satellite spends almost half its time blocked
from the Sun by the Earth. The actual number for that altitude is 38% of the
time, or 15 hours per day of sun exposure. It is possible to arrange a nearly
polar ?sun synchronous? orbit that rides the sunrise/sunset line on Earth so
that the satellite is always bathed in sunlight, with no eclipsing by Earth.

But any LEO satellite will sweep past the ground at over 7 km/s, appearing
for only 2 minutes above a 30? elevation even for a direct overhead pass (and
only about 6 minutes from horizon to horizon). What?s worse, this particular
satellite in a sun-synchronous orbit will not frequently generate overhead
passes at the same point on the Earth, which rotates underneath the orbit.

In short, solar installations in LEO could at best provide intermittent power
to any given site?which is the main rationale for leaving the ground in the
first place. Possibly an armada of smaller installations could zip by, each
squirting out energy as it passes by. But besides being a colossal headache
to coordinate, the sun-synchronous full-sun satellites would necessarily only
pass over sites experiencing sunrise or sunset. You would get all your energy
in two doses per day, which is not a very smooth packaging, and seems to
defeat a primary advantage of space-based solar power in avoiding the need
for storage.

Any serious talk of solar power in space is based on geosynchronous orbits.
The period of a satellite around the Earth can be computed from Kepler?s Law
relating the square of the period, T, to the cube of the semi-major axis, a:
T? = 4??a?/GM, where GM ? 3.98?1014 m?/s? is Newton?s gravitational constant
times the mass of the Earth. For a 500 km-high orbit (a ? 6878 km), we get a
94 minute period. The period becomes 86400 seconds (24 hours) at a ? 42.2
thousand kilometers, or about 6.6 Earth radii. For a standard-sized Earth
globe, this is about a meter from the center of the globe, if you want to
visualize the geometry.

A geosynchronous satellite indeed orbits the Earth, but the Earth rotates
underneath it at like rate, so that a given location on Earth always has a
sight-line to the satellite, which seems to hover in the sky near the
celestial equator. It is for this reason that satellite receivers are often
seen tilted to the south (in the northern hemisphere) to point at the perched
platform.

Being so far from the Earth, the satellite rarely enters eclipse. When it
does, the duration will be something like 70 minutes. But this only happens
once per day during periods when the Sun is near the equatorial plane, within
about ?22 days of the equinox, twice per year. In sum, we can expect shading
about 0.7% of the time. Not too bad.  Power Transmission

Now here?s the tricky part. Getting the power back to the ground is
non-trivial. We are accustomed to using copper wire for power transmission.
For the space-Earth interconnect, we must resort to electromagnetic means.
Most discussions of electromagnetic power transmission centers on lasers or
microwaves. I?ll immediately dismiss lasers as impractical for this purpose,
because clouds block transmission, because converting the power into
electricity is not as direct/efficient as it can be for microwaves, and
because generation of laser power tends to be inefficient (my laser pointer
is about 2%, for instance, though one can do far better).

So let?s go microwave! For reasons that will become clear later, we want the
highest frequency (shortest wavelength) we can get without losing too much in
the atmosphere. Below is a plot generated from an interactive tool associated
with the Caltech Submillimeter Observatory (where I had my first Mauna Kea
observing experience). This plot corresponds to a dry sky with only 2.0 mm of
precipitable water vapor. Even so, water takes its toll, absorbing/scattering
the high-frequency radiation so that the fraction transmitted through the
atmosphere is tiny. Only at frequencies of 100 GHz and below does the
atmosphere become nearly transparent.

But if we have 25 mm of precipitable water (and thick clouds have far more
than this), we get the following picture, which is already down to 75%
transmission at 100 GHz. Our system is not entirely immune to clouds and
weather.

But we will go with 100 GHz and see what this gets us. Note that even though
microwave ovens use a much lower frequency of 2.45 GHz (? = 122 mm), the same
dielectric heating mechanism operates at 100 GHz (peaking around 10 GHz). In
order to evade both water absorption and dielectric heating, we would have to
drop the frequency to the radio regime.

At 100 GHz, the wavelength is about ? ? 3 mm. In order to transmit a
microwave beam to the ground, one must contend with the diffractive nature of
electromagnetic radiation. If we formed a perfectly collimated (parallel)
beam of microwave energy from a dish in space with diameter Ds?where the ?s?
subscript represents the space segment?we might naively anticipate the
perfectly-formed beam to arrive at Earth still fitting in a tidy diameter Ds.
But no. Diffraction imposes an angular spread of about ?/Ds radians, so that
the beam spreads to a diameter at the ground, Dg ? r?/Ds, where r is the
distance between transmitter and receiver (about 36,000 km in our case). We
can rearrange this to say that the product of the diameters of the
transmitter and receiver dishes must approximately equal the product of the
propagation distance and the wavelength: DsDg ? r?

So? Well, let?s first say that Ds and Dg are the same. In this case, we would
require the diameter of each dish to be 330 m. These are gigantic, especially
in space. Note also that really we need Dg = Ds + r?/Ds to account for the
original extent of the beam before diffraction spreads it further. So really,
the one on Earth would be 660 m across.

Launching a microwave dish this large should strike anyone as prohibitively
difficult, so let?s scale back to a more imaginable Ds = 30 m (still quite
impressive), in which case our ground-based receiver must be 3.6 km in
diameter!

Now you can see why I wanted to keep the frequency high, rather than dipping
into the radio, where dishes would need only get bigger in proportion to the
wavelength.  Converting Back to Electrical Power

At microwave frequencies, it is straightforward to directly rectify the
oscillating electric field into direct current at something like 85%
efficiency. The generation of beamed microwave energy in space, the capture
of the energy at the ground, then conversion to electrical current all take
their toll, so that the end-to-end process may be expected to have something
in the neighborhood of 50% efficiency.

Beam Safety and Consequences

I don?t worry too much about keeping the beam from veering off the collection
region. There are clever, fail-safe schemes for ensuring proper
alignment/pointing. According to the Wikipedia page on the topic, the
recommended transmission strength would be 230 W/m? in the center of the
beam. This is about a quarter the strength of full sunlight, and is thought
to be a safe level through which aircraft and birds can fly.

At this level, our 3.6 km diameter collecting area would generate about 40
GWh of energy in a day, at an assumed reception/conversion efficiency of 70%.
By comparison, a flat array of 15%-efficient PV panels occupying the same
area in the Mojave Desert would generate about a fourth as much energy
averaged over the year. So these beaming hotspots are not terribly more
concentrated than what the sunlight provides already. Again, I find myself
scratching my head as to why we should go to so much trouble.

Launch Costs

This brings us to the tremendous cost of launching stuff into space. Today?s
cost for putting stuff into geosynchronous orbit is about $20,000 per
kilogram of launched material. We have a history of hope and optimism that
launch costs will plummet in the future. So far, that has not really
happened, and rising energy prices are not going to help drive costs
ever-lower.  Meanwhile, the U.S. space program appears to be scaling back.

In 1999, NASA initiated a $22 million study investigating the feasibility of
space-based solar power. Among their conclusions was that launch costs would
need to come down to $100?200 per kg to make space-based solar power
economically competitive. It is hard to imagine accomplishing a factor-of-100
reduction in launch costs.

Let?s do our own quick analysis. A standard rooftop panel delivers about 10 W
per kilogram of mass (slightly better than this, but I will stick to round
numbers). Let?s say a light-weighted version for space achieves an impressive
factor-of-100 improvement: same power for 1% the mass. This gives 1 kW/kg. I
might be grossly over-optimistic in this estimate, but we?ll see where it
takes us. Ignoring other infrastructure overhead (wiring, propulsion systems,
structural support, microwave transmission antenna, communications, etc.), we
end up with a launch cost of $40 per delivered Watt, accounting for 50%
delivery efficiency?and this is just the launch cost. I?ll bet the
space-qualified ultralight PV panels are not as cheap as the knock-about
panels we put on our roofs for $2/W. So maybe the cost of the space hardware,
launch of all systems, and build-out of expansive ground systems will cost
upwards of $60/W?becoming $400/W if we don?t manage the 100? weight reduction
per Watt, settling for 10? instead. Granted, the constant illumination
provides a factor of three in favor of space, so we can give it a 3? discount
for its full-time contribution. But still, compared to typical ground
installation costs at $5/W, we find that the solar approach is at least four
times more expensive. You can even throw in batteries in the ground system
without exceeding the space cost, and all the reasons for going to space have
melted away.  Energy Return on Energy Invested

My initial reaction to the notion of flinging solar panels in space was that
the energy needed to launch panels to geosynchronous orbit might totally
undermine the energy delivered by such a system. Let?s take a quick look with
approximate numbers.

First, today?s silicon solar panels return their investment of energy after
3?4 years of deployment. Stick them in the sun for 30?40 years, and you have
an EROEI of 10:1. Specially light-weighted space panels will likely require
more energy to make per kilowatt, but will spend a much greater fraction of
their time in space soaking up energy. Let?s just guess that the payback
would be 5 years if the space panel were deployed on the ground. But in
space, the panel works five times longer per day than the panels for which
the 3?4 year payback is calculated. So let?s call it an even one year for
manufacture payback in space. Panels in space will be subjected to a much
harsher cosmic ray (and damaging debris) environment than those on the
ground, so we should reduce the lifetime to, say, 20 years. Still, that?s a
20:1 EROEI for the manufacturing piece alone. But then there?s the launch.

A study of gross weight of rockets compared to payload delivered to
geosynchronous orbit reveals a roughly 100:1 ratio. This intuitively makes
sense to me given the logarithmic rocket equation: much of the fuel is spent
lifting the fuel that must be spent to lift more fuel, etc. (see the appendix
of the stranded resources post for my explanation of this).

There is a nice rule of thumb?highly approximate?that the embodied energy in
products is about the same as that of the equivalent mass of gasoline, at
about 40 MJ/kg. Aluminum production requires more, at 220 MJ/kg, but many
materials are surprisingly close to this value (and fuel will be right on the
mark). A rocket will use a lot of aluminum, but much more fuel. So we might
go with a round number like 50 MJ per kg.

If I take my ultra-lightweight panel producing 1 kW/kg, I must launch 100 kg
of rocket, at a cost of 5 GJ. A 1 kW panel will deliver 0.5 kW to the
end-user, after transmission/conversion losses are considered. The 5 GJ
launch price tag is then paid off in 107 seconds, or about one third of a
year. Add the embodied energy of the other components in space and on the
ground, and I could easily believe we get to a year payback?now bringing the
total (manufacture plus launch) to two years and an EROEI around 10:1. If my
100? light-weighting proves to be unrealistic, and we can only realize a
factor of ten improvement over our rooftop panels, the solar panel launch
cost climbs to three years, so that adding other components results in
perhaps a 4:1 EROEI.

In the end, the EROEI is not as prohibitive as I imagined: it?s not a net
energy drain as I might have feared. But it?s not obviously better than
conventional solar either.

In Summary

I sense that people have a tendency to think space is easy. We have lots of
satellites, we?ve gone to the Moon (remember that?!), we used to have a space
shuttle program, and we have seen many movies and television shows set in
space. But space is a very challenging environment, and it is extremely
costly and difficult to deliver things there. If you go to the Fed-Ex site to
get delivery costs, you immediately get hung up on not knowing the
postal-code for space. Once in space, failures cannot be serviced. The usual
mitigation strategy is redundancy, adding weight and cost. A space-based
solar power system might sound very cool and futuristic, and it may seem at
first blush an obvious answer to intermittency, but this comes at a big cost.
Among the possibly unanticipated challenges:

    The gain over the a good location on the ground is only a factor of 3
(2.4? in summer, 4.2? in winter at 35? latitude).

    It?s almost as hard to get energy back to the ground as it is to get the
equipment into space in the first place.

    The microwave link faces problems with transmission through the
atmosphere, and also flirts with roasting ducks on the wing.

    Diffraction of the downlink beam, together with energy density limits,
means that very large areas of the ground still need to be dedicated to
energy collection.

Traditional solar photovoltaics in good locations can accomplish much the
same for much reduced cost, and with only a few times more land than the
microwave link approach would demand. The installations will be serviceable
and will last longer. Batteries seem an easier way to cover storage
shortcomings than launching stuff to space. I did not even address solar
thermal schemes in this post, which competes well with photovoltaics and can
very naturally build in storage capability.

I am left puzzled as to why we would want to take a harder, more expensive
road to solar power. I think it is just not intuitive to most how difficult
and expensive space is. And perhaps they think it?s very futuristic and cool
to push our power generation out to space: it fits the preferred narrative
about where we?re going. I don?t know?I?m just guessing.

Astronomers frequently face this issue: should we build a
telescope/observatory on the ground, or launch something into space? The
prevailing wisdom is that if the science can be accomplished on the ground,
then by golly you?d best do it that way. You?ll have the result sooner, at
less expense, and with a greater chance of success. The lion?s share of
astronomical advance is carried out from the ground. Space is reserved for
those places where there is no other way. The atmosphere blocks many
interesting wavelengths, creates turbulence that makes high-resolution
imaging difficult, and produces variations in transmission that make it
impossible to measure fluxes to high precision. The rotating Earth gets in
the way of continuous observation of a single target for long periods. Some
of the more exciting (an well-publicized) discoveries come from space
missions, because these avenues are not generally available to us, increasing
discovery potential.

Space-based solar power contains little intrinsic advantage that we can get
?only from space.? It looks like a wash at best, and the astronomers would
say ?don?t bother.?


From spike66 at att.net  Wed Mar 21 15:57:57 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2012 08:57:57 -0700
Subject: [ExI] ape haulers again
Message-ID: <005301cd077b$62dc29a0$28947ce0$@att.net>

 

Since we are having discussions about cars, there is a comment I forgot to
post before.  If we back off on top speed requirements, we get some cool
stuff in return, such as more freedom on shape.  Note the styling of old
cars, how they had a lot of aerodynamically messy surfaces, vertical
windshields for instance.  Wind resistance isn't so important at lower
speeds.  

 

We don't have those styley cars anymore, but higher coefficients of drag
have advantages: they look cool.  Adds character.  Today's cars all look too
much alike, boring featureless ovoids.  Can you picture a 55 corvette?  A
50s era Bel Aire?  Sure, now visualize a 1995 Impala?  You can't picture the
95 Impala, because it looks just like every other yank snoozemobile produced
in those years, and pretty similar to what is coming off the line now. 

 

Another advantage to lower speed is that if the motor is decreased in size
and weight, it improves repairability.  One feller can pull and replace an
engine without special hoists and such.  A prole could even keep a spare
engine at home on the shelf without using up so much room.

 

On a related note, the Germans maintain a positive trade balance even though
they pay workers some of the highest wages in the world, they are dragging
the dead weight of Greece nearly singlehandedly in spite of that unfortunate
Colonel Klink accent, and still they do stuff like this, way to go krauts!
Check it out, is this cool or what:

 



http://www.youtube.com/embed/nd5WGLWNllA?rel=0

 

 

spike

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From kryonica at gmail.com  Wed Mar 21 17:10:59 2012
From: kryonica at gmail.com (Kryonica)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2012 17:10:59 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Horizon on Fat
Message-ID: <B1125763-3882-4BD6-9BC9-987BC2BAC043@gmail.com>

BBC 2 Horizon episode 9 is called The Truth about Fat and may interest some of you.  It is currently available on BBC iPlayer for UK residents.


From rtomek at ceti.pl  Wed Mar 21 19:19:54 2012
From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2012 20:19:54 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [ExI] Art of the Future
In-Reply-To: <CAPy8RwYPQ_gWkVUxf6KXCeKC+TSE_9wwJjKi=G-E71gUs71m-g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPy8RwYPQ_gWkVUxf6KXCeKC+TSE_9wwJjKi=G-E71gUs71m-g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1203211733001.27177@tau.ceti.pl>

On Mon, 19 Mar 2012, Kelly Anderson wrote:

> I was looking at one of the articles referred to in another thread,
> and I stumbled onto Albert Robida... he was a French artist active
> from around 1880-1920, and he drew illustrations of the future. He
> obviously got a lot wrong, but he got a lot right too. Basically, he
> was right on with many forms and uses of video (including television,
> porn, Tivo, personal broadcasting, etc.) and he called WWII dead on.
> He wrote an illustrated story about a great war fought to a great
> extent from the air. He even got who was fighting who right, with

O yes, I think I stumbled upon Robida about twice during last 2+ decades, 
via "Featured artist" gallery in Polish s-f monthly, "Fantastyka". It was 
interesting, indeed. However, he also proposed biological warfare as a 
humane alternative to traditional fight. I'm not sure what to think about 
it :-).

> Anyway, this all got me to thinking... how do we illustrate the future
> that we envision? As I think about the future as I believe it will be,
> I find it difficult to construct mental images of what such
> illustrations might look like. You in a chair with a funny hat on?
> What does that convey? How do you illustrate nanotechnology? Or
> Artificial Intelligence? Sure, robots have been done, and for a long
> time... but what else is out there.
> 
> If I'm wrong, and there is work being done in this area, who do you
> find inspiring in the world of future art?
> 
> We have talked about Science Fiction as a vehicle for getting
> transhumanist and futurist ideas out there... but what about the other
> arts? Music, Illustration, Photography, etc. The images of the past
> from Robida and others are inspiring. Science fiction often isn't, but
> that's another thread on the ubiquity of dystopian visions.
> 
> Art has an indispensible role to play in preparing people's minds for
> the future. We have movies like Gattaca... that are somewhat possible,
[...]

Well, with the caveat that I am not an expert or connaiseur of art, just 
from time to time looking at a painting or piece of architecture, etc etc, 
here goes - all of this just some opinion of mine.

Short answer is, I guess, no. With some exceptions.

One can look at art as a donor-recipient act. From donor's (artist) POV, 
art is either contemporary or old fashioned. Even Futurism was, AFAIK, a 
contemporary reaction to growing mechanisation of ordinary life. If an 
artist wants recognition, she needs to express things in way recognizable 
by general public. Either this, or her art is dead. Well, chances are, 
after artist's death, it will be appreciated, but certainly not because of 
far sighting aspect of this.

As of recipients aka mob, there is many kind of them - mecenators, 
lookators, hangonwallators, buyators, passerbyators, criticators and so 
on. But for them, art is either about ego/status pumping or about show 
business - or about to go out the window. It is also worth citing 
Heinlein's opinion from "Stranger in a Strange Land", that what mob wants 
is "sex, blood and money". Either put it on the table explicitly or put 
there some allusions and metaphors that will create plausible associations 
inside mob's pleasure centers.

Now, for the art to be about The Future, an artist needs to be a 
philosopher AND to be somewhat concerned about The Future. Then, she risks 
being not recognized as interesting and failing to get out from artistic 
hell.

There are also different kind of arts, and not every kind is good for 
taking on The Future, so books win IMHO while music looses. It is much 
easier to put interesting ideas into a book. I think graphics have 
deteriorated to simply illustrating stories, to make them more pallatable 
for the mob. On the other hand, graphical novels seem to be an interesting 
intersection, provided the author(s) are, guess what, philosophers. I 
mean, it does not require Plato to be a philosopher, but it requires an 
attitude.

In no particular order, apart from Stanislaw Lem's books, I find those art 
pieces interesting and inspiring:

- "2001: A Space Odyssey" by Kubrick (and it's sequel, "2010" by Hyams, 
wasn't bad either)

- "Dr. Strangelove" by Kubrick

- "A Clockwork Orange", again by Kubrick

- "Layer cake" ("Przekladaniec") from 1968 by Wajda (adaptation of Lem's 
novel and with scenario written by him, a take on idea of organ 
transplantation and modern/future surgery/medicine and social reaction to 
them)

- "Inquest of Pilot Pirx" ("Test pilota Pirxa") by Piestrak - a lot of 
people shun this film because of somewhat primitive special F/X, but I am 
no child and I pay attention not only to visual niceness, which isn't 
really that bad.

- "Golem" by Szulkin

- "O-bi O-ba, The End of Civilization" ("O-Bi, O-Ba. Koniec cywilizacji") 
by Szulkin

- "The War of the Worlds: Next Century" ("Wojna swiatow - nastepne 
stulecie") by Szulkin

- "Ga, ga, Glory to the Heroes" (translation of title to English is mine, 
because I couldn't spot it anywhere, in Polish "Ga, ga. Chwala bohaterom") 
by Szulkin

- "Blade Runner" by Scott

- "Singularity 7", a graphic novel by Templesmith

- "Orbiter", gra-nov by Ellis et al.

- "Mek", gra-nov by Ellis et al.

- "Ocean", gra-nov by Ellis et al.

- "Black Summer", gra-nov by Ellis et al.

- "Ministry of Space", gra-nov by Ellis et al.

- "Pi" by Aronofsky

- "Terminator" by Cameron

- "The Time Machine" from 1960, by George Pal

- "THX 1138" by Lucas

- "Metropolis" by Lang

- "Matrix" by Wachowski brothers, only first movie with fragments of two 
others and with somewhat mixed feelings about including this one, but ok, 
it belongs here

- "Doctor Who" - newer series (from 2005 on), as I don't know older one, 
by BBC and number of writers, really nice, and it shows how a good s-f is 
not really about shitloads of money but simply about imagination - of 
course one has to be capable of it, which is obviously lacking on the side 
of producers/management, when one looks at what they deliver to the 
cinemas, but this show is different

- "Twilight Zone" - I have watched misc episodes from misc series, 
overally I liked them, see above (imagination)

- "Masters of Science Fiction" - nice, well made, intelligent, provoking a 
bit

- "Backtime" from 1998 by Miller - it is hard to find it, I think they 
only sell it on VHS, and it doesn't have great rating on imdb [ 
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0189383/ ], but I liked it a lot, because a 
plot wasn't a total fail like it happens in megabucks productions nowadays

Majority of films, as one can easily see, are from 80-ties. "Star Wars" 
somehow doesn't fit - while I might include original, analog trilogy, the 
hexalogy is a bit sterile for me. Besides, I cannot see much of things to 
learn from it, while of course it is nice and colorful eye candy.

It is possible I have forgotten of something worth mentioning. However, I 
cannot recall a film made in the last decade and worth mentioning. At 
least when it comes to s-f. Actually, a decade and half, null. Actually, 
two decades, not counting positions already mentioned. It went to such 
extreme, that I barely expect anything interesting from single s-f films - 
I mean, all right, nice actresses, yeah, somewhat interesting plot, yeah, 
a concept or two, yeah, but watching it for the second time - not so 
often.

However, I am not up to date with s-f cinema. I watch them without hurry, 
and I don't remember regretting such attitude, so far. So, I didn't see 
"Avatar" but from what I have seen I don't have to hurry at all.

> "And it came to pass that the thirty and seventh year passed away
> also, and there still continued to be peace in the land."
> 
> It's the most utterly boring part of the whole book. It is a relief
> that it is so short while other parts of the book are sometimes quite
> fun and interesting.

I can only imagine. If it is similar to the Bible, rape and murder, all 
very inspiring. As of the boring part, this piece of land of peace must 
have been uninhabited, so no wonder it became land of boredom.

> But this illustrates a point, that talking about
> techno-utopia is also pretty boring. Let's say that you were able to
> write accurately about today twenty years ago... about the good stuff,
> what would you say?
> 
> "And kids have little devices that allow them to listen to whatever
> music they want to, and you have access to more information than you
> can imagine from a hand held device that doubles as a telephone."
> Boring... I guess... reads a lot like The Age of Spiritual Machines...
> LOL.

There was a contest once, not very long ago, to describe a future life in 
Europe. Guess what, utopia won hands down, AFAIR. What was it that I have 
written about associations above?

Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.      **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home    **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...      **
**                                                                 **
** Tomasz Rola          mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com             **


From rtomek at ceti.pl  Wed Mar 21 21:06:20 2012
From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2012 22:06:20 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [ExI] Art of the Future
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1203211733001.27177@tau.ceti.pl>
References: <CAPy8RwYPQ_gWkVUxf6KXCeKC+TSE_9wwJjKi=G-E71gUs71m-g@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1203211733001.27177@tau.ceti.pl>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1203212136100.27177@tau.ceti.pl>

On Wed, 21 Mar 2012, Tomasz Rola wrote:

[...]

> In no particular order, apart from Stanislaw Lem's books, I find those art 
> pieces interesting and inspiring:

[... blah blah blah ...]

> It is possible I have forgotten of something worth mentioning. However, I 
> cannot recall a film made in the last decade and worth mentioning. At 
> least when it comes to s-f. Actually, a decade and half, null. Actually, 
> two decades, not counting positions already mentioned. It went to such 
> extreme, that I barely expect anything interesting from single s-f films - 
> I mean, all right, nice actresses, yeah, somewhat interesting plot, yeah, 
> a concept or two, yeah, but watching it for the second time - not so 
> often.

Yay! I have forgotten two of my favourite shows! Where was my head.

- "Battlestar Galactica" - the newer, from 2003 on, series including 
offshots and minis. I don't know an original one. The new one, I think is 
a very well made space-war opera. I remember watching a Pilot, and a 
moment when beautiful Cyloness reached out toward a crying baby and broke 
her neck with a click. Wow, from this very moment I was wholeheartedly 
subscribed to the show. My sis, when I told her about this 
enthusiastically (because I tend to be enthusiastic from time to time, 
about various things), replied I had a serious sanity problem. Hah! Maybe 
she was right. Anyway, the show had downs and ups (yep, there were better 
moments, better even than nuking whole multiplanetary human civilisation 
back to dirt) but overally, I would have been delighted to see it all 
again.

- "Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles" - a story in what appears to 
be alternative timeline (Sarah is brunette, for example). Two 
terminatoress, both good looking and smart enough to not fight each other. 
I just watched it for the second time, and I wasn't tired at all.

In both cases, there is attempt to show machines as having some kind of 
psychology of their own. Technology - well, while I was busy watching I 
might have skipped something but I think there wasn't anything very 
stupid, so I was pleased with realism of s-f quite a lot. OTOH, I might 
have spotted some goof and forgot about later, after being visually and 
emotionally stunned again (they didn't killed more babies, but there were
other, ehem, you know, moments, liquid terminatoress posing to be urinal 
etc).

Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.      **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home    **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...      **
**                                                                 **
** Tomasz Rola          mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com             **


From lubkin at unreasonable.com  Wed Mar 21 23:46:46 2012
From: lubkin at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2012 19:46:46 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Mind control
Message-ID: <201203212346.q2LNknKE005155@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

Fascinating stuff. Another reason to wish Lynn Margulis was still with us;
I so want to call her up and ask her what she makes of this. And, of
course, Flegr is just investigating one micro-organism. What else might
a field of infectional psychology find...?

<http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2012/03/how-your-cat-is-making-you-crazy/8873/?single_page=true>


-- David.



From eugen at leitl.org  Thu Mar 22 11:58:51 2012
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 12:58:51 +0100
Subject: [ExI] David Pearce: AMA
Message-ID: <20120322115851.GR9891@leitl.org>


http://www.reddit.com/r/Transhuman/comments/r7dui/david_pearce_ama/

David Pearce: AMA (self.Transhuman)

submitted 14 hours ago by davidcpearce

(I have been assured this cryptic tag means more to Reddit regulars than it does to me! )

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[?]Anal_Justice_League 9 points 13 hours ago

How do you feel about the work of Aubrey de Grey?

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[?]davidcpearce[S] 17 points 13 hours ago

Deep admiration. I started "Ending Aging" with a host of reservations http://www.amazon.com/Ending-Aging-Rejuvenation-Breakthroughs-Lifetime/dp/0312367066 Aubrey demolished them one after the other. I still fear he is optimistic on timescales. But then I'm temperamentally a pessimist about most things.

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[?]keegs440 4 points 11 hours ago

Do you think your pessimistic temperament influences your motivation to act at all? I ask because in my own cryonics/life extension/transhumanism advocacy, I have been (gently) accused of over-optimism, and the truest reply I can give is that I think if I were a pessimist about these things, it would demotivate me incredibly. That's not to say I opt to believe in the shortest timeline for the outcomes I'd like to see - more that I like to believe that my own personal involvement can hasten those outcomes, particularly if I persuade others to also become personally involved.

But I suppose we don't necessarily get a say in our temperaments, though I've found meditation pushes me further towards optimism, and there are likely chemical means as well.

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[?]conscioncience 2 points 6 hours ago

What does your advocacy consist of?

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[?]Anal_Justice_League 2 points 12 hours ago

Yes - I have that book. I must say, I too was quite skeptical of his claims before I read it, and the works of others like him. Even some former skeptics of his seem to be coming around to his ideas and methodologies.

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[?]davidcpearce[S] 15 points 13 hours ago

I am just as "aggressively" opposed to racism. In practice, I wouldn't say boo to a goose. But the worst source of severe and avoidable source of suffering in the world today is factory farming. Would it be preferable to express mild disapproval instead?

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[?]SingularityUtopia 6 points 13 hours ago

I would say human suffering is far worse because our heightened sense of awareness, our intelligence, makes us feel pain with far greater depth than lesser animals do. Human sensitivity to pain causes many people to commit suicide. Our deep emotional perception of the world entails extremely deep sensations, intensely poignant experiences, regarding pain and pleasure. I say: humans first. The suffering of humans and animals may be avoidable but I don't think it is easy to avoid it. Change is difficult.

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[?]davidcpearce[S] 22 points 10 hours ago

All I'd argue is that the nonhuman animals we currently factory farm and kill should be accorded the same degree of care and respect we give human youngsters of equivalent sentience. We currently spend e.g. ?100.000 looking after 23 week old micro-preemies in neonatal intensive care units - when far more sentient creatures end up on our dinner plates after being horribly abused. Such is anthropocentric bias.

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[?]logantauranga 5 points 8 hours ago

Is there a point at which the intelligence of the species is sufficiently low that we can disregard their suffering? At a certain point, you're in a kind of Buddhist monk sort of bind where you're sweeping the path ahead of you to avoid accidentally treading on ants.

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[?]jonahe 3 points 3 hours ago

Pain is not necessarily a very complex emotion (in my experience). If I'm stabbed in the back I feel intense pain long before I figure out what happened to me, long before I start actively worrying about my future plans, my chances of making it to a hospital etc. (That is: long before any "higher" function process is needed.)

Pain and fear are primitive emotions that we have strong reasons to believe have a high survival value for any animal smart enough to remember its experience.

Scientists are debating whether lobsters and crabs may not feel pain (they might just be having a reflex-like behaviour, we basically know how to separate what's what), but I would say no one really doubt that both birds and mammals can suffer.

What I think matters is if the animal have the necessary "equipment" to experience pain, and if intelligence plays a part in this I imagine it's a pretty small part.

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[?]exist 2 points 1 hour ago

    ...you're in a kind of Buddhist monk sort of bind where you're sweeping the path ahead of you to avoid accidentally treading on ants.

you make a valid point. but i'd just like to point out that what you're referring to is not Buddhism, rather Jainism. i apologize for being pedantic.

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[?]mythicmessenger 4 points 9 hours ago

One thing that always makes me think is if I don't respect less intelligent species now and just willy nilly kill me, what's going to stop me from doing the same if I become an intelligence enhanced posthuman? I don't want to be in the habit of thinking it's okay to kill something only because it's less intelligent then me.

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[?]TheDeanMan 2 points 7 hours ago

This is the issue I've hit when I argue with myself over late term abortion. At what point is the baby sentient enough to call it "wrong" to abort? And if you say that that small bit of brain function is enough to say it is wrong to kill, then it should be wrong to kill all of these animals we kill. But if you say no, that it is ok, they don't "understand" yet, then that opens up with it being ok to kill extremely mentally handicapped people, and babies who have yet to reach that sentience level that makes it "wrong". It's hard for me to find a non-hypocritical stance.

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[?]pawnzz 1 point 1 hour ago

Not sure how accurate this source is, but I remember hearing about bears trying to commit suicide due to inhumane treatment. I think people really need to rethink their definition of sentience. Just because we're unable to understand how deeply another animal feels, I don't think that means we should just assume that they are "lesser" beings or incapable of feeling things as deeply as we are.

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[?]olboyfloats 7 points 13 hours ago

I've read some of your work about the abolition of suffering and am a huge supporter. I also have interest in ending suffering of any kind. My question for you is, since you first wrote the Hedonist Imperative, how much further along are you towards that goal? Also, have you received much support in the scientific community at large? If you were to predict a date when technology like you suggest would be wide used, how close are we?

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[?]davidcpearce[S] 12 points 12 hours ago

I wrote HI in 1995. Since then we've discovered how to abolish, reduce (and amplify) the capacity to experience pain (different alleles of the SCN9A gene). In vitro meat has passed from being mere sci-fi to a scientifically credible option that may be commercialized within a decade. And even the "wildest" aspect of the abolitionist project, namely the proposal to phase out carnivorous predation, was championed in print for the first time last year by Jeff Mcmahan the New York Times.

But I need scarcely tell you the obstacles are still daunting. And most of the scientific community still regard phasing out the biology of suffering as far-fetched, to say the least.

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[?]olboyfloats 4 points 12 hours ago

Well, it's good to hear not only are you making progress, but you are optimistic!

As a side question, HI is the main work of yours that I have read, and was wondering if there is anything more recent you have written that I should be looking out for?

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[?]davidcpearce[S] 4 points 12 hours ago

http://www.abolitionist.com (1997) is an overview, together with http://www.abolitionist.com/reprogramming/index.html http://www.superhappiness.com Perhaps see too http://www.reproductive-revolution.com The most recent is http://www.biointelligence-explosion.com

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[?]spaceman_groovesTheSingularityIsNear 2 points 9 hours ago

i hadnt read this, and its quite good! exactly the sort of stuff ive been thinking about recently.

on a somewhat related note, I really do recommend that you take up piracetam, if you havent yet

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[?]conscioncience 1 point 6 hours ago

    it's a lot less offensive to human dignity than having sex

Did you personally write this?

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[?]Warlaw 6 points 10 hours ago

The future of the world can be pretty bleak at times. Do you have any methods to keep yourself upbeat?

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[?]davidcpearce[S] 12 points 9 hours ago

Daily aerobic exercise, good diet, sleep discipline...and drugs. (amineptine plus selegiline)

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[?]aaOzymandias 3 points 3 hours ago

Could you elaborate on sleep discipline? It is something I am not too good at, and do you basically mean just fixed hours of sleep etc? Or something more exotic?

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[?]andrewtheart 2 points 8 hours ago

    Daily aerobic exercise

lies ;)

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[?]davidcpearce[S] 2 points 3 hours ago

well, it's easier to do on Peruvian marching powder than my own austere regimen.

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[?]pawnzz 1 point 1 hour ago

You been hanging out with G.W. lately?

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[?]apolloreddit 1 point 8 hours ago

biopsychiatry.com

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[?]TheMoniker 5 points 8 hours ago

First, thank you so much for doing an AMA!

Now, on with the questions!

    (I'm sure that you field first question a lot, but it's probably worthwhile to have a short answer in this thread.) When one speaks of global veganism, even to committed ethical vegans and animal rights activists, a common response is complete disagreement (perhaps accompanied by disgust). What do you think is the most persuasive argument for a vegan to support global veganism?

    One argument against global veganism is that it's arrogant (perhaps even paralleling a colonial mindset) to assume that we know what's best for and are justified in meddling with other species. What do you believe is the strongest rebuttal to this criticism?

    Primitivists put forward the argument that the shift from hunter-gatherer to agricultural subsistence and later industrialisation have lead to social stratification, coercion, oppression and widespread environmental degradation. (And many more environmentalists would sympathize to a large degree with this critique, if only so far as noting that industrial civilization is the problem.) Moreover, a primitivist would state that the only real solution to this is deindustrialization (at the very least least, IIRC, Zerzan sees language itself as a problem), or, in more straightforward terms. What would you say, if anything, to persuade a primitivist to your philosophy?

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[?]threetoast 5 points 13 hours ago

Do you think that it's more likely that a more aggressive (Matrioshka brains; hypercapitalism; grey goo; Charles Stross' Accelerando) or a less aggressive (minimal impact; long timescale; Greg Egan's Diaspora) post-human society will develop? Why?

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[?]davidcpearce[S] 6 points 12 hours ago

I anticipate superintelligence will be hyper-social - perhaps a cognitive extension of the hyperempathising condition of mirror touch synaesthesia: http://www.livescience.com/1628-study-people-literally-feel-pain.htm After all, it was our superior "mind-reading" skills that helped make humans the cognitively dominant species on the planet. We just need to enrich and de-bias our perspective-taking capacities. IMO aggression is likely to pass into history together with archaic primate minds. But heaven knows how much death and suffering will occur this century. I won't attempt an essay on futurology here, or even a comparative review of Stross vs Egan. But the most recent substantive piece I've written is http://biointelligence-explosion.com/ A tidied up version will be appearing in the forthcoming Springer volume later this year. http://singularityhypothesis.blogspot.com/

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[?]sleepeejack 2 points 12 hours ago

What would you say to people who see this coming hyper-sociality as a loss of personal independence and privacy? How can we be sure that there isn't something to the old paradigm we'd be losing by hooking up to the global brain?

The Google glasses people say we can expect people wearing them to behave erratically, because although they're sort of in the same environment as us, they'll be reacting to different stimuli. Now imagine millions of people wearing the glasses and crowd-sourcing new digital overlays and pseudo-digital cultures onto the physical environment. The potential for drastic changes in behavior compared to the nondigital population is enormous. The early adopters for some of these technologies may have inexplicable and even frightening capabilities, goals, and actions. So I guess my question is, how can we be sure that hypersocial superintelligence isn't a recipe for zombie apocalypse?

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[?]keegs440 3 points 12 hours ago

Which are the zombies of that scenario? Seems like a matter of perspective, to me ;)

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[?]sleepeejack 2 points 12 hours ago

Haha, totally agree. But I guess a more "primitive" society may look at us with our cancer, diabetes, and general civilizational anomie and similarly wonder which society took the "right" path.

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[?]Canadian_Infidel 0 points 10 hours ago

Sounds like a great way to start WWIII. Eliminating one race so another you prefer can take over might not go over so well.

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[?]keegs440 3 points 9 hours ago

That's not at all what I meant - sorry if it sounded that way. In all seriousness, my hope/expectation is that "posthumanity" would hold higher regard for other beings than humanity presently does...

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[?]rams77 4 points 11 hours ago

How do you stay motivated?

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[?]davidcpearce[S] 7 points 11 hours ago

2 x 5mg selegiline, c. 250mg amineptine daily.

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[?]spaceman_groovesTheSingularityIsNear 5 points 9 hours ago

could you describe the effects of this regimen?

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[?]Ezekiel2500 4 points 9 hours ago

Does it bother you that your use of those drugs (and many other supplements probably) would exclude you from participation in the JDTic trial if declared? Do you worry about the withdrawals you'll get if your amineptine or selegiline supply gets cut off for whatever reason? Do you worry about the withdrawals you'll get when the JDTic trial ends, or do they let you carry on taking it? Presumably it causes kappa opioid upregulation over time, and the withdrawals would be similar to the feeling of taking a kappa agonist. I've smoked salvia, and it was nothing short of awful every time.

Have you ever tried ethylphenidate? It's a cheap, widely available and legal (for now) "research chemical" with very selective DAT inhibitory action. Cleanest stimulant I've ever tried - it'd be extremely useful for anxious-apathetic type mood disorders, unlike typical stimulants which alleviate anhedonia, avolition, poor attention, and such, but usually worsen anxiety for those with an anxious, overstimulated and agitated temperament in addition to a hedonic deficit. The current treatment options in that area are shit, probably because the drugs that work like that (e.g. ethylphenidate) tend to be extremely addictive. You have to force yourself to endure the crashes in the weeks it takes to stabilise without dose-escalating to chase the mood lift. But ethylphenidate will be banned eventually as a drug of abuse, which sucks because I refuse to self-medicate anything other than minimally psychoactive legal supplements now, and have to rely on prescribed meds.

I'm taking Concerta XL 27mg in addition to other meds for my anxiety and anhedonia, but ethylphenidate was a lot more effective than it. Much less agitation.

It's weird how different the effects can be of drugs that boost the same neurotransmitter. I've tried selegiline and rasagiline, and though the latter was better, neither helped my anhedonia that much. They just made me feel edgy more than motivated, and very anxious. Very different to a daily regimen of long-acting stimulant, even methylphenidate, which you'd think to be more noradrenergic and anxiogenic than a MAOB inhibitor.

P.S. would you be willing to post or private message your full supplement and med regimen? I bet a lot of people here would be interested to know.

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[?]apolloreddit 2 points 8 hours ago

This is the latest snapshot of his regimen that he has released: http://www.hedweb.com/diarydav/2008.html

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[?]threetoast 6 points 13 hours ago

Proof? A post on your twitter/FB/G+ is sufficient.

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[?]davidcpearce[S] 11 points 13 hours ago

OK, done! https://plus.google.com/u/0/?tab=wX#105903603302602842440/posts

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[?]olboyfloats 10 points 13 hours ago

I came here from his facebook post. I'm fairly sure that proves it's really him.

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[?]distinctchaos 3 points 11 hours ago* 

Do you think a deceleration of technological progress would be beneficial for humanity? That way there would be maybe more time to get used to new concepts, to examine risks and to take precautions.

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[?]davidcpearce[S] 6 points 10 hours ago

A recent international survey of the percentage of people describing themselves as "very happy" put Indonesia at the top followed by India, followed by Mexico. (http://www.economist.com/node/21548213 ) For the most part, "developed" Western nations scored poorly by comparison. So belief that advanced technology will shortly let us claw our way out of the Darwinian abyss requires something of an act of faith. But ultimately, only biotechnology can allow us to phase out the biology of suffering throughout the living world - and eventually abolish experience below "hedonic zero" altogether.

I think we need to accelerate progress in everything from in vitro meat to gene therapy. But unless we recalibrate the hedonic treadmill, I can't see the subjective quality of human life being significantly enhanced.

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[?]TishTamble 1 point 3 hours ago* 

    But ultimately, only biotechnology can allow us to phase out the biology of suffering throughout the living world - and eventually abolish experience below "hedonic zero" altogether. I think we need to accelerate progress in everything from in vitro meat to gene therapy. But unless we recalibrate the hedonic treadmill, I can't see the subjective quality of human life being significantly enhanced.

Seems like your done for the night but on the off chance you see this I thought i'd ask you to elaborate on how this fits with your view towards animals. I see how it leads to a world without humans pillaging the earth and instead working with it. But isn't the path paved in animal testing?

edit: added full relevant quote.

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[?]davidcpearce[S] 2 points 3 hours ago

I don't think scientific curiosity ethically entitles us to harm or kill another sentient being. Fortunately, many tests on human and nonhuman animals don't involve harming or killing. And of those that do, many involve organisms that don't pass the threshold of sentience. Thus we share a large number of genes with yeast. The exponential of computer power should also allow us to simulate what could once only be discovered by human and nonhuman animal testing. But yes, there are real ethical dilemmas here. And what is the threshold of sentience?

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[?]Benthamite 3 points 10 hours ago

In countless essays, posts and interviews, you've made several predictions about the long-term future of sentient life on Earth. To my knowledge, all these predictions are optimistic; what you predict is consistently what you prescribe. To give but a few examples: you predict that factory-farming will be abolished, you predict that superintelligence will be hypersocial, and ultimately you predict that suffering will be completely abolished in our Hubble volume. Lacking very strong reasons for thinking otherwise, it is very hard for me to resist the conclusion that such optimism is the result of wishful thinking: given the sheer number of dimensions in which things could go wrong, it is antecedently extremely unlikely that they will actually go well in all those dimensions. I believe your project will be much more credible if you were more careful in distinguishing prediction from prescription, and if you admitted that, in at least certain important respects, the story of Earth-originating life will probably fail to have a happy ending.

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[?]davidcpearce[S] 3 points 9 hours ago* 

The possibility of systematic bias is certainly relevant. As well as the well-known cognitive biases http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases there are biases reflective of temperament. Most obviously, happy people tend to make optimistic predictions, depressives pessimistic predictions. Perhaps one should should trust one's judgement more when one arrives at mood-incongruent conclusions. In that respect at least, I don't think I'm unusually at fault. Is the author of http://www.abolitionist.com/multiverse.html unusually prone to wishful thinking? Yes, for technical reasons I think we're likely to phase out the biology of suffering in "our" forward light-cone (very crudely, a combination of the pleasure principle plus biological superintelligence) But post-Everett quantum mechanics can make a mockery of human pretensions. I fear our success can only be parochial at best.

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[?]apolloreddit 1 point 7 hours ago

"But the universal wavefunction does encode hell-worlds beyond our worst nightmares, albeit at low density."

I have a morbid fascination, what does your vision of these hell-worlds entail?

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[?]davidcpearce[S] 1 point 2 hours ago

ah, I probably shouldn't have hotlinked that depressing paper; I just wanted to rebut Benthamite's charge of susceptibility to wishful thinking. The universal wave function encodes some truly ghastly stuff I'd rather not discuss here. Like the Holocaust, it's best not to spend time dwelling on unspeakable events one has no power to influence.

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[?]nomatron 3 points 2 hours ago

Hello David. Peter here. Welcome to Reddit - glad to see you've taken the plunge.

I am not a vegan, though I accept David's reasons for the ethical imperative of being one. I merely mire myself in hypocrisy and accept that I am broad, contradictory and akratic - I seem to be unable to give up on meat.

The most troubling issue with persuading the necessity of veganism (as has been discussed by DeRaptured in the discussion below) is what to say or do if someone simply does not care about the wellbeing or suffering of animals. Of course, if someone is deaf to the suffering of humans, we call them sociopaths - a word with a sting - but we have no similar word for those who care not for non-human sentients.

The reply you have explained over many a coffee is an interesting one: That to fail to empathise rests on a failing of intellect, insofar as we lack information that would otherwise force us to act. If we really understood animal suffering (and understanding is here taken to be a good) we would be helpless but to empathise.

I wonder if you might expand on this for us?

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[?]SingularityUtopia 3 points 12 hours ago

Why do you feel drawn to defend animals? Why end animal suffering rather than other issues? What is it precisely about animals that inspires you to defend their interests? Can you tell us how you feel about animals? Do you have pets? When did you first become interested in animal rights? Was there a pivotal experience which made you want to end animal suffering. At a young age I saw a fisherman kill a dogfish and I was horrified, very upset, but it didn't make me want to excessively defend animals: I don't go out of my way to protect them. I can understand they are defenceless but human babies and children are also defenceless so why defend animals and not try to stop child cruelty?

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[?]davidcpearce[S] 11 points 12 hours ago

Cruelty to members of other species is ethically no different from cruelty to members of other races. If human babies and prelingustic toddlers were being treated the way we treat pigs, you wouldn't consider the concern disproportionate. On the contrary, you'd judge the systematic killing and abuse to be the greatest crime of our age - and devote your energies to bringing the horror to an end. Of course pigs are different from human babies or toddlers. But the question to ask is whether any of the differences between them (e.g. the slightly different structure of the FOXP2 gene implicated in generative syntax) are morally relevant differences? Is there any evidence an adult pig is less sentient than a two year old toddler? Sadly none of which I'm aware.

I've never eaten meat: all four of my grandparents were vegetarian. This is an accident of birth, not a mark of virtue. But being raised on a meatless diet does remove one obvious source of self-serving bias i.e most humans like the taste of animal flesh and therefore seek to rationalise their eating habits. Heaven knows how we'll explain what we did to other sentient beings to our grandchildren ( "But I liked the taste" [?] )

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[?]keegs440 1 point 12 hours ago

Wow. What a happy accident to have been raised in such an environment. I wish I could have such clean hands. Do you try to find vegetable sources where the producers take effort to avoid causing animal suffering as part of their farming practices? That seems like it would be very very difficult unless one simply started growing all their own food... but by merit of that being an option, it is clearly not impossible either.

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[?]davidcpearce[S] 6 points 11 hours ago

We all make compromises - and probably no one can claim to lead a truly cruelty-free lifestyle. Becoming vegan will be much easier when it becomes the social norm - or more likely, veganism & invitrotarianism. http://www.veganism.com

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[?]misplaced_my_pants 1 point 1 minute ago

What are you views on the consumption of animals like oysters, which are almost certainly incapable of suffering or pain?

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[?]SingularityUtopia 1 point 10 hours ago

If pigs are of comparable intelligence to human toddlers I wonder how you view the carnivorous nature of wild boars? I doubt a human toddler would ever eat small mammals. Boar mainly forage but they do have a carnivorous streak, with the teeth the prove it, so I wonder if animals are accorded the same rights as humans, do we then prosecute animals for murder if they eat another animal? Eating weaker or less intelligent animals is a fact of nature.

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[?]jonahe 2 points 2 hours ago

Do we prosecute toddlers if they kill someone? No. Does that mean that we think it's OK to kill someone? No.

If tornados could be charged with murder, and if that would help keeping other tornados from killing, then we'd probably want to put them in jail or execute "them" to. But that's pretty hard to do..

In the mean time, why not focus on the obvious wrongdoings that we can easily stop?

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[?]konopotter 2 points 12 hours ago

What made you pursue philosophy in the start? And do you have any good advice to anyone studying it? (In this case me I guess..)

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[?]davidcpearce[S] 8 points 11 hours ago

I guess a depressive angst-ridden temperament first drew me to philosophy as a teenager. I know a lot of scientists as well as laymen are scornful of philosophy - perhaps understandably so. Reading academic philosophy journals often makes my heart sink too. But without exception, we all share philosophical background assumptions and presuppositions. The penalty of _not _ doing philosophy isn't to transcend it, but simply to give bad philosophical arguments a free pass.

What branch of philosophy interests you most?

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[?]konopotter 1 point 2 hours ago

I'm still fairly new to the game, so still trying to figure that out. What really got me started was Eastern philosophy and thinkers like Krishnamurti, so until now I guess what interest me the most is conciousness and language :)

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[?]apolloreddit 1 point 12 hours ago

Your writings on biopsychiatry.com are very useful. Do you plan to continue maintaining such an exhaustive and detailed listing of mood-boosting drugs? Are there any drugs that are being developed that you find particularly interesting? Did you ever get your hands on JDTic?

Now that I asked you the last question, you probably know who I am. :D

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[?]davidcpearce[S] 4 points 12 hours ago

Yes. :-) I'm currently trying JDTic at 2mg daily. http://esciencenews.com/articles/2012/03/21/team.finds.atomic.structure.molecule.binds.opioids.brain The ongoing trial http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT01431586 is testing subjects on 1mg, 3mg and 10mg JDTic daily. I shall report back.

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[?]apolloreddit 1 point 11 hours ago

Can you discern any effects yet?

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[?]davidcpearce[S] 2 points 11 hours ago

yes, subtle but pronounced. I don't feel "drugged" But we are still trying to establish the optimal dosage.

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[?]apolloreddit 1 point 7 hours ago

I'm intrigued, subtle yet pronounced feelings of what? Happiness, relaxation, optimism?

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[?]andrewtheart 1 point 8 hours ago

No, you're not the only one who ha been asking him about JdTic.

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[?]apolloreddit 1 point 7 hours ago

Fair enough! I still think he knows though.

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[?]andrewtheart 1 point 7 hours ago

maybe. i just didnt want him to think I was you ... lol

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[?]keegs440 2 points 12 hours ago

You have written favourably about cryonics in the past. Are you signed up?

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[?]davidcpearce[S] 5 points 11 hours ago

IMO a change of the law is urgently needed to allow people to be cryonically suspended before their medically pronounced death. All too often today irretrievable (?) information loss occurs before suspension. I'm not personally signed up because I think my matter and energy could more fruitfully be configured into a blissful posthuman smart angel instead...

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[?]keegs440 5 points 11 hours ago

I can't help but agree with you on all counts. But I wonder if your signing up, even if you considered it a symbol of support and solidarity more than anything else, might aid those who are most likely too old today to realize a post-human, angelic transfiguration without some intervening period of cryopreservation.

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[?]davidcpearce[S] 7 points 10 hours ago

hmmm, a very interesting reply. Thanks. I hadn't considered that point. Perhaps I should reconsider.

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[?]Roon 2 points 9 hours ago

I found Anders Sandberg's life extension model quite useful when I was considering signing up.

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[?]rmeddy 1 point 8 hours ago

What do you think about Hugo De Garis?

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[?]davidcpearce[S] 2 points 2 hours ago

Artificial intelligence research attracts people with high AQ's as well as high IQs (cf. http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/9.12/aqtest.html ) So existing conceptions of "posthuman superintelligence" tend to resemble autistic spectrum disorder more than full-spectrum superintelligence. I enjoyed "The Artilect War" But IMO the prospect of inevitable "gigadeath" conflict between Cosmists and Terrans later this century is science fiction.

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[?]jmdugan 1 point 8 hours ago

What do you feel would be the best metrics for allocating compassionate treatment?

By this I mean, once we are no longer human-centric in our thinking of smart entities, we will need to have more clearly defined expectations and norms about how we treat living things than we do today. It may even be an issue on how more competent machines treat humans.

How can we quantify which life forms gets compassion?

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[?]davidcpearce[S] 2 points 1 hour ago

First, I think we need to decouple sentience from intelligence, and intelligence from moral status. Some cognitively humble creatures can be intensely sentient, whereas artificially designed nonbiological systems can behave in ways most naturally labelled as "intelligent" without being unitary subjects of experience. [Why classical digital computers were, are, and always will be zombies IMO is a deep question I won't explore here, not least because my views are quite unorthodox. For a start, I don't think digital computers can solve the binding problem - in the sense consciousness-related binding (cf. http://tracker.preterhuman.net/texts/body_and_health/Neurology/Binding.pdf ]

What about biological life? Well, unlike scarce goods and services, the substrates of pleasure don't need to be rationed. So if the political consensus existed, we could probably engineer the well-being of sentience in a century or less. In practice, I fear centuries of misery still lie ahead.

For now, I think we should focus on shutting down factory farms and extending the principles of the welfare state (but not "welfarism") to large-brained vertebrates. But in the longer run: http://www.abolitionist.com/reprogramming/index.html

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[?]jmdugan 1 point 8 hours ago

Sci-Fi has produced wildly different versions of post-humanist worlds from extremes like "Terminator" universe where there is outright war, the Matrix-style world where humans are subjugated, but then enormously compassionate future visions like Iain Banks Culture series.

Most of these future visions seem to miss the middle state that I expect will be far more interesting, which is human-machine hybrid mental models, capacity expansion, and capacity overlaps. By this I mean we'll see initially super capable people because of their use of technology directly interfacing with them. In a minor way, Internet services are already doing mental expansions with Google, Wolfram, Twitter, and forums like this one - enabling super capacity we didn't have 30 years ago. I expect this will dramatically accelerate and increase.

How do you see the future playing out as humans develop super-capable machines, or machine-human hybrids? (I recognize this is a huge question, so pointers to papers or writings on your thoughts would be fine, and greatly appreciated).

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[?]davidcpearce[S] 2 points 1 hour ago

Cybernetically-enhanced biological minds have a long future ahead IMO http://www.biointelligence-explosion.com/ Unlike some futurists, I don't think there's going to be a "robot rebellion".

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[?]jmdugan 1 point 8 hours ago* 

Buddhists define suffering as arising from the mismatch between expectation and reality ever changing through impermanence, and because of attachments to conditioned states.

They teach to minimize suffering my acceptance of impermanence, and by learning to let go of attachments. But within this framework, there are many who assert that the elimination of suffering is not possible, and the main goal would be best as "minimization" of suffering.

Can you relate your view on suffering, and that we will be able to completely eliminate it, to the Buddhist view that we must strive simply to minimize it? Another way to ask this is, when you talk about suffering on http://www.abolitionist.com - is the same suffering Buddhists talk about?

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[?]davidcpearce[S] 1 point 13 minutes ago

Somewhat against my better judgement, I did try comparing Buddhism and (negative) utilitarianism a few years ago. http://www.bltc.com/buddhism-suffering.html The reason I hesitated is plenty of Buddhist scholars would say I haven't understood the "true" meaning of Buddhism. But I know of no technical reason why we can't abolish suffering. If we eliminate its molecular signature, experience below "hedonic zero" becomes biologically impossible.

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[?]TupacOrBiggie 1 point 7 hours ago

Do you think it's theoretically possible to resurrect the dead? (sorry if dumb question)

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[?]SentientPrimate 1 point 6 hours ago

How are we going to live to see the singularity without animal models?

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[?]NukeU 1 point 5 hours ago

In relation to the buddhist idea of enlightenment- Do you think it could be possible that in using technology to tackle all sources of suffering in the human experience such as illness, poverty, etc. may only be attacking the symptoms of human suffering and not the source itself? From what I've seen in my life it is wisdom about oneself and how to cope with suffering that leads to happiness; not the removal of unpleasant things necessarily. Buddhists go through years of meditation and metacognative practices to eliminate suffering from within. I think having a society where we actively work to remove all unpleasant things using technology could theoretically create an extreme version of what we have seen already in the western world; people who have incredibly luxurious, safe, and comfortable lives still in great amounts of suffering after all they have already becomes a norm that is taken for granted.

I have not read your works yet, but I am greatly interested in transhumanism. I agree with most of what I've read about the philosophy, but this point always bugs me. I just came here on a whim from another post, and I don't claim to know how valid this point I am making is, but what are your opinions on this?

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[?]webster1002 1 point 5 hours ago

How do you feel about the interpretation of humanism which calls it arrogant? Rather, I refer to "The Arrogance of Humanism by David Ehrenfeld which targets the definition of humanism as "?a supreme faith in human reason ? its ability to confront and solve the many problems that humans face, its ability to rearrange both the world of Nature and the affairs of men and women so that human life will prosper." Ehrenfeld calls the idea that "we can do what ever we want, and will be able to account for all of the consequences of our actions if we utilize the full potential of our reason" sort of sense" arrogant, specifically.

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[?]Copernican 2 points 5 hours ago

How is transhumanism not just a Marxist notion of using technology get beyond human necessity for subsistence?

What does transhumanism have to say about dealing with social structures?

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[?]zynthalay 1 point 5 hours ago

I've seen several things about veganism, but nobody seems to have raised the question of animalless, nervous systemless meat. Where do you stand on that as a moral perspective? Practical / likely perspective?

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[?]ieshido 1 point 54 minutes ago

He mentions invitrotarianism here.

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[?]virnovus 1 point 5 hours ago

I used to develop virtual reality software. Now I'm a convicted felon due to some really idiotic drug laws. I can't get my brain chemistry back on track without drugs, and the fact that all my money has been poured into lawyer fees has left me broke. Should I just keep jumping through the legal hoops, or should I run away and join some clandestine transhumanist research lab?

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[?]zynthalay 1 point 5 hours ago

Wait, there are clandestine transhumanist research labs?

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[?]virnovus 1 point 5 hours ago

If there aren't, there should be. David?

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[?]stieruridir 1 point 3 hours ago

There are places online that work on this stuff--hplusroadmap being the big one. The stuff I know of in real life is mostly hackspaces and commercial labs.

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[?]madcat033 1 point 4 hours ago

What is your opinion on polyamory? I find the goal of overcoming jealousy and insecurity to be remarkably similar in a post-Darwinian sense, as they are negative emotions holding us back from a state of increased love, emotional connection, and sexual endeavors, all ultimately positive things.

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[?]rogerology 1 point 3 hours ago

How do you increase your energy? Any recommendation on improving memory?

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[?]pepperhead11 1 point 56 minutes ago

Would there hypothetically be any animal equivalent to transhumanism (for beings other than humansp?

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[?]davidcpearce[S] 2 points 9 minutes ago

[apologies, I am now back on duty. All questions will receive responses (many thanks), but please forgive my one-fingered typing: roll on the digital Singularity.]

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[?]c4actbe 2 points 12 hours ago

    do you believe in God?
    do you follow any organized religion?
    are you a member of any secret society? (except BLTC)

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[?]davidcpearce[S] 13 points 11 hours ago

1) no. 2) no. 3) no. (But of course if I were, I would presumably say the same!)

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[?]DeRaptured 1 point 11 hours ago

I noticed you have written extensively in defense of a vegan lifestyle - for ethical reasons and not because of personal health or the environment. As a fellow philosopher, and admittedly as someone who has little empathy for non-humans, do you think you can argue that I ought to peruse a vegan diet? or do you ultimately acknowledged it's matter of personal preference?

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[?]davidcpearce[S] 7 points 11 hours ago

The transition to a cruelty-free vegan lifestyle is only one strand of the abolitionist project. But insofar as we acknowledge that it's ethically unacceptable to kill or abuse human babies and prelinguistic toddlers, then I think rational self-consistency dictates treating sentient beings of equivalent sentience with the same care and respect - regardless of race or species. For sure, only human infants and toddlers have the "potential" to become mature adult human beings. But we don't regard human toddlers with a progressive disease who will never reach their third birthday as any less worthy of care and respect than their normally developing contemporaries. We value human infants and prelinguistic toddlers for who they are, not just for what they may - or may not - become. I'd argue that we should take exactly the same approach with nonhuman animals. Or to quote Jeremy Bentham: ?The question is not, "Can they reason?" nor, "Can they talk?" but "Can they suffer??

    permalink
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[?]DeRaptured 1 point 10 hours ago

You see, I have been looking for a good reason to stop eating meet for some time now, and I'm still not convinced. You seem to assume a-priori that it's ethically unacceptable to kill or abuse all sentient creatures. We can agree, as Bentham suggested, that animals can suffer, but I think there is a prior, more important, question that needs tackling first: Do I, or should I care about non-human suffering? If my response is "no, I do not care about the suffering of non-humans", then, do you have any argument to convince me that I ought to not harm non-humans?

Sorry to press you on this matter, but if there is no response to this question other than an a-priori circular statement of "well suffering is wrong and therefore we must not cause it" then I might be compelled to argue that the Abolitionist Project is built on shaky grounds.

    permalink
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[?]Benthamite 4 points 10 hours ago

Why do you care about human suffering? It is probably because of how bad it feels. But non-human suffering of the same kind feels equally bad. So on pain of inconsistency you should care about non-human suffering too. And if you agree that the animals we eat can experience suffering of that kind, then you should abstain from consuming animal products, unless such consumption was necessary for you to accomplish goals for which you care even more.

    permalink
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[?]iwillmakeyouhurt 1 point 3 hours ago

There are plenty of wonderful economic, environmental, and health reasons to reduce your meat intake (if not completely eliminate it).

It is more efficient to grow vegetables, and causes less harmful byproducts to be released into the environment (reducing human food-borne illnesses). Recent studies have shown that red meat intake directly leads to an increase in mortality rates from certain diseases. Lastly, the meat industry is notoriously dangerous and treats its workers terribly.

Even if you don't care about the suffering of non-humans, if you care about human suffering, you should probably consider vegetarianism (or at least, significantly reduce your intake -- something is better than nothing!).

    permalink
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    report
    reply

[?]the_onanist -3 points 8 hours ago* 

Animals taste good; their suffering lends a savory taste to the flesh. How would you deal with this?

    permalink
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    reply

[?]beyonsense 1 point 7 hours ago

sometime in the future it would be possible to be reprogrammed to have the same pleasure from eating non-meat product

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[?]Pazon 1 point 2 hours ago

Since we can lab grow Spam already, I imagine we might be able to make authentic tasting fake meat first.

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From eugen at leitl.org  Thu Mar 22 12:10:16 2012
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 13:10:16 +0100
Subject: [ExI] what comes after the hipster?
Message-ID: <20120322121015.GS9891@leitl.org>


This one is for spike.

http://flavorwire.com/269261/what-comes-after-the-hipster-we-ask-the-experts?all=1


From sparge at gmail.com  Thu Mar 22 13:13:44 2012
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 09:13:44 -0400
Subject: [ExI] The NSA's new data center
In-Reply-To: <201203172251.q2HMphhn024879@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <201203172251.q2HMphhn024879@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2dXQdi8Kdm+TkHPi6Rqzus0uB9c5xubvJB5rw544rd=0g@mail.gmail.com>

Wow, that is disturbing. The idea of a government agency having access to
that much private communication between its citizens is not good. They are
in the perfect position to blackmail anyone who could oppose them.

-Dave
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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Thu Mar 22 14:23:37 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 15:23:37 +0100
Subject: [ExI] The NSA's new data center
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2dXQdi8Kdm+TkHPi6Rqzus0uB9c5xubvJB5rw544rd=0g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <201203172251.q2HMphhn024879@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <CAM5aL2dXQdi8Kdm+TkHPi6Rqzus0uB9c5xubvJB5rw544rd=0g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a40aLY09gmJh8N59y08pWQ70V25ENaEdazTZRGmnumfSw@mail.gmail.com>

2012/3/22 Dave Sill <sparge at gmail.com>

> Wow, that is disturbing. The idea of a government agency having access to
> that much private communication between its citizens is not good.
>

Not that non-citizens would be immune... :-)

Personally, I have two answers:
- try to make things as difficult as possible to snoopers (make use of
Freenet, encrypt your email, anonimise yourself, etc, whenever possible,
even for trivial stuff)
- accept (and realise) that privacy has been a transient phenomenon in
human societies, for citizens *and* governments alike, and behave
accordingly.

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From spike66 at att.net  Thu Mar 22 16:59:47 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 09:59:47 -0700
Subject: [ExI] what comes after the hipster?
In-Reply-To: <20120322121015.GS9891@leitl.org>
References: <20120322121015.GS9891@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <018601cd084d$304fc2d0$90ef4870$@att.net>


>... On Behalf Of Eugen Leitl
Subject: [ExI] what comes after the hipster?


>...This one is for spike.

>...http://flavorwire.com/269261/what-comes-after-the-hipster-we-ask-the-exp
erts?all=1
_______________________________________________


Thanks Gene.  This is an article written by hipster hipsters.

spike




From sparge at gmail.com  Thu Mar 22 18:37:48 2012
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 14:37:48 -0400
Subject: [ExI] The NSA's new data center
In-Reply-To: <CAPoR7a40aLY09gmJh8N59y08pWQ70V25ENaEdazTZRGmnumfSw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <201203172251.q2HMphhn024879@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <CAM5aL2dXQdi8Kdm+TkHPi6Rqzus0uB9c5xubvJB5rw544rd=0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a40aLY09gmJh8N59y08pWQ70V25ENaEdazTZRGmnumfSw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2fp77OtogSLfJ9s2wxKpuF1LnfS7yhfk8ZXnh2zUGrepA@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Mar 22, 2012 at 10:23 AM, Stefano Vaj <stefano.vaj at gmail.com> wrote:

> 2012/3/22 Dave Sill <sparge at gmail.com>
>
>> Wow, that is disturbing. The idea of a government agency having access to
>> that much private communication between its citizens is not good.
>>
>
> Not that non-citizens would be immune... :-)
>

No, but the US Constitution doesn't preclude spying on international
communications.

Personally, I have two answers:
> - try to make things as difficult as possible to snoopers (make use of
> Freenet, encrypt your email, anonimise yourself, etc, whenever possible,
> even for trivial stuff)

- accept (and realise) that privacy has been a transient phenomenon in
> human societies, for citizens *and* governments alike, and behave
> accordingly.


As I said, my primary concern is that this information could be used by
those who have it to ensure that their power isn't diminished by those who,
at least theoretically, have the power to do so. I don't have anything to
hide, but I'm *sure* there are people in Washington who *do*, and I'm also
sure they're not all as careful as they should be. J. Edgar Hoover
supposedly had secret files containing embarrassing information about his
enemies. Imagine what he could have done with access to everyone's mail and
telephone calls.

-Dave
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From pjmanney at gmail.com  Thu Mar 22 21:39:14 2012
From: pjmanney at gmail.com (PJ Manney)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 14:39:14 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Mike Treder is missing
In-Reply-To: <CAGSKFy1vK7tQOHaS4o2RPE-7eMZ+QspbrG9jSLj26n9KhkMHAg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMp1VPDRXVyLpgWZwO85GiTMf4OpQ2yTJ-c7JCheUZTeXDffZQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <001101cd0581$3943d800$abcb8800$@cc>
 <201203192223.q2JMNTsa021850@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <CAGSKFy1vK7tQOHaS4o2RPE-7eMZ+QspbrG9jSLj26n9KhkMHAg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJrtBE3HmHLTmD8mfZUT+_JJqHSzvnUBMjnBVcjK1Qfcy9QyUQ@mail.gmail.com>

This is the latest via Marianne Waldow, Mike Treder's girlfriend: "The
police have confirmation that Mike left Detroit and entered Canada last
week. We don?t know why. But with no evidence that violence has been done
to him, the investigation as to his whereabouts is being suspended
indefinitely. The family thanks everyone for their concern. You are all so
kind. I have to take some time off Facebook right now. I think you all
understand."

PJ

On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 1:56 PM, John Grigg <possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com>wrote:

> I enjoyed my online friendship with Mike, who was always very patient with
> my questions, and I am very worried about him.  I hope this matter turns
> out okay, but I have my fears.
>
>
> When I was in the Boy Scouts, I remember my scoutmaster telling the other
> scouting leaders about how dangerous Detroit could be.  He had attended a
> large engineering conference there, and his company advised all the
> employees going to always travel outside the hotel and conference center in
> groups of no smaller than six, and despite that, there were still
> muggings!
>
>
> I suppose Paul Verhoeven chose Detroit to be the setting for Robocop, due
> to it's history of decay and crime.  Ironically, I had been hearing stories
> of a sort of Bohemian hipster renaissance in the city, but that still does
> not make it a safe place for visitors.
>
>
> Mike seemed to have an easygoing confidence in himself that may have
> proved his undoing.
>
>
> John  : (
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Mar 19, 2012 at 3:23 PM, David Lubkin <lubkin at unreasonable.com>wrote:
>
>> I passed the information on to one of my networks, and received this:
>>
>> Here's a link for Fox 2 Detroit's coverage which provides pictures of
>>> Treder. The video here is probably from Sunday. Fox 2 ran a much more
>>> informative video in Monday evening's broadcast, including the information
>>> that his cell phone was last used at 6:29 pm on Wednesday. Also, some
>>> conflicting information about his attendance at the conference. His luggage
>>> was found in his hotel room.
>>>
>>
>> http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/**dpp/news/local/missing-new-**
>> yorker-last-seen-in-detroit<http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/dpp/news/local/missing-new-yorker-last-seen-in-detroit>
>>
>> For those of you on Facebook, Mike's page seems to be a Schilling
>> Point for discussing news and concern.
>>
>> http://www.facebook.com/mike.**treder<http://www.facebook.com/mike.treder>
>>
>>
>> -- David.
>>
>>
>> ______________________________**_________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/**mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-**chat<http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat>
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From spike66 at att.net  Thu Mar 22 21:38:26 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 14:38:26 -0700
Subject: [ExI] bees again
Message-ID: <000f01cd0874$1dfa1690$59ee43b0$@att.net>

WOW a really good clue today was observed.

 

The general decline of honeybees has been documented nearly everywhere, but
there is no consensus on the cause.  Experts suggested parasites, viruses,
some new pesticide.  For a long time I have been leaning toward the notion
of some recently evolved internal parasite.  A couple months ago within a
span of a couple weeks, I found three dying bees, took them home, put them
in a sealed container.  None of the three had parasites.

 

After years of bee-watching, today I saw something I had never seen before.
Two bees together staggering around on the sidewalk with the familiar
symptoms, unable to fly, not aged visibly but rapidly declining.  The fact
that there are two right together, not near any hive or any wild swarm,
suggests to me a pesticide, since a homeowner could have sprayed the
flowers, two bees got in it and both ended up nearby dying on the sidewalk.


 

In retrospect, that house was the site where I have collected two other
dying bees, although not together at the same time.   So now I am leaning
toward the notion that the bee's decline may be pesticide linked.  Make
sense?

 

spike

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From eugen at leitl.org  Thu Mar 22 22:01:00 2012
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 23:01:00 +0100
Subject: [ExI] bees again
In-Reply-To: <000f01cd0874$1dfa1690$59ee43b0$@att.net>
References: <000f01cd0874$1dfa1690$59ee43b0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <20120322220100.GP9891@leitl.org>

On Thu, Mar 22, 2012 at 02:38:26PM -0700, spike wrote:

> In retrospect, that house was the site where I have collected two other
> dying bees, although not together at the same time.   So now I am leaning
> toward the notion that the bee's decline may be pesticide linked.  Make
> sense?

I thought the link to neonicotinoid insecticides was pretty strong, and established
years ago.


From natasha at natasha.cc  Thu Mar 22 20:37:00 2012
From: natasha at natasha.cc (natasha at natasha.cc)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 16:37:00 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Mike Treder is missing
In-Reply-To: <CAJrtBE3HmHLTmD8mfZUT+_JJqHSzvnUBMjnBVcjK1Qfcy9QyUQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMp1VPDRXVyLpgWZwO85GiTMf4OpQ2yTJ-c7JCheUZTeXDffZQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <001101cd0581$3943d800$abcb8800$@cc>
 <201203192223.q2JMNTsa021850@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <CAGSKFy1vK7tQOHaS4o2RPE-7eMZ+QspbrG9jSLj26n9KhkMHAg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJrtBE3HmHLTmD8mfZUT+_JJqHSzvnUBMjnBVcjK1Qfcy9QyUQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120322163700.mdkoirwrkgc0ks8c@webmail.natasha.cc>



   Thank you PJ. I received a phone call today from those looking for  
him because my phone number was in his cell? phone from our talking a  
couple of monts ago.

   Mike has been located, but what happened to him will not be  
disclosed until his family is ready. I hope they do so soon.

   No matter the differences between Mike's ideology?and other  
transhumanists' views, especially extropians and singulatarians, his  
well-being and peace is the hope.

   Natasha

   Quoting PJ Manney <pjmanney at gmail.com>:

> This is the latest via Marianne Waldow, Mike Treder's girlfriend: "The
> police have confirmation that Mike left Detroit and entered Canada last
> week. We don?t know why. But with no evidence that violence has been done
> to him, the investigation as to his whereabouts is being suspended
> indefinitely. The family thanks everyone for their concern. You are all so
> kind. I have to take some time off Facebook right now. I think you all
> understand."
>
> PJ
>
> On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 1:56 PM, John Grigg?  
> <possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> I enjoyed my online friendship with Mike, who was always very patient with
>> my questions, and I am very worried about him.? I hope this matter turns
>> out okay, but I have my fears.
>>
>>
>> When I was in the Boy Scouts, I remember my scoutmaster telling the other
>> scouting leaders about how dangerous Detroit could be.? He had attended a
>> large engineering conference there, and his company advised all the
>> employees going to always travel outside the hotel and conference center in
>> groups of no smaller than six, and despite that, there were still
>> muggings!
>>
>>
>> I suppose Paul Verhoeven chose Detroit to be the setting for Robocop, due
>> to it's history of decay and crime.? Ironically, I had been hearing stories
>> of a sort of Bohemian hipster renaissance in the city, but that still does
>> not make it a safe place for visitors.
>>
>>
>> Mike seemed to have an easygoing confidence in himself that may have
>> proved his undoing.
>>
>>
>> John? : (
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Mar 19, 2012 at 3:23 PM, David Lubkin?  
>> <lubkin at unreasonable.com>wrote:
>>
>>> I passed the information on to one of my networks, and received this:
>>>
>>> Here's a link for Fox 2 Detroit's coverage which provides pictures of
>>>> Treder. The video here is probably from Sunday. Fox 2 ran a much more
>>>> informative video in Monday evening's broadcast, including the information
>>>> that his cell phone was last used at 6:29 pm on Wednesday. Also, some
>>>> conflicting information about his attendance at the conference.?  
>>>> His luggage
>>>> was found in his hotel room.
>>>>
>>>
>>> http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/**dpp/news/local/missing-new[1]-**
>>> yorker-last-seen-in-detroit<http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/dpp/news/local/missing-new-yorker-last-seen-in-detroit[2]>
>>>
>>> For those of you on Facebook, Mike's page seems to be a Schilling
>>> Point for discussing news and concern.
>>>
>>> http://www.facebook.com/mike.**treder[3]<http://www.facebook.com/mike.treder[4]>
>>>
>>>
>>> -- David.
>>>
>>>
>>> ______________________________**_________________
>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> http://lists.extropy.org/**mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-**chat[5]<http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat[6]>
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat[7]
>>
>>
>


Links:
------
[1] http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/**dpp/news/local/missing-new
[2]  
http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/dpp/news/local/missing-new-yorker-last-seen-in-detroit
[3] http://www.facebook.com/mike.**treder
[4] http://www.facebook.com/mike.treder
[5] http://lists.extropy.org/**mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-**chat
[6] http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
[7] http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


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From spike66 at att.net  Thu Mar 22 22:40:38 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 15:40:38 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Mike Treder is missing
In-Reply-To: <CAJrtBE3HmHLTmD8mfZUT+_JJqHSzvnUBMjnBVcjK1Qfcy9QyUQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMp1VPDRXVyLpgWZwO85GiTMf4OpQ2yTJ-c7JCheUZTeXDffZQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <001101cd0581$3943d800$abcb8800$@cc>
 <201203192223.q2JMNTsa021850@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <CAGSKFy1vK7tQOHaS4o2RPE-7eMZ+QspbrG9jSLj26n9KhkMHAg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJrtBE3HmHLTmD8mfZUT+_JJqHSzvnUBMjnBVcjK1Qfcy9QyUQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <001201cd087c$ce8b3950$6ba1abf0$@att.net>

 

 

From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of PJ Manney
Subject: Re: [ExI] Mike Treder is missing

 

This is the latest via Marianne Waldow, Mike Treder's girlfriend: "The
police have confirmation that Mike left Detroit and entered Canada last
week. We don't know why. But with no evidence that violence has been done to
him, the investigation as to his whereabouts is being suspended
indefinitely. The family thanks everyone for their concern. You are all so
kind. I have to take some time off Facebook right now. I think you all
understand."

PJ

 

Whoooo, what a relief. 

. I think you all understand.".

Ja we understand, Canada is a nice country.  I really like Canada.  I
consider it my second favorite country, first choice if I wanted to flee the
current US government which is getting scarier every day.

spike

 

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From pharos at gmail.com  Thu Mar 22 23:18:51 2012
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 23:18:51 +0000
Subject: [ExI] bees again
In-Reply-To: <20120322220100.GP9891@leitl.org>
References: <000f01cd0874$1dfa1690$59ee43b0$@att.net>
 <20120322220100.GP9891@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <CAL_armgF-iY7QodF48qAHhO4rHmBBLRHKPmLbXV3jTe-vt_3BA@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Mar 22, 2012 at 10:01 PM, Eugen Leitl wrote:
> I thought the link to neonicotinoid insecticides was pretty strong, and established
> years ago.
>

Only in Europe. That's why Germany, Italy and France have banned them.

The suspicion is that the USA is protecting Monsanto, Dow, DuPont and
Union Carbide and refusing to ban them.

<http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2010/11/467782.html>


BillK


From lubkin at unreasonable.com  Fri Mar 23 00:17:42 2012
From: lubkin at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 20:17:42 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Mike Treder is missing
In-Reply-To: <001201cd087c$ce8b3950$6ba1abf0$@att.net>
References: <CAMp1VPDRXVyLpgWZwO85GiTMf4OpQ2yTJ-c7JCheUZTeXDffZQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <001101cd0581$3943d800$abcb8800$@cc>
 <201203192223.q2JMNTsa021850@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <CAGSKFy1vK7tQOHaS4o2RPE-7eMZ+QspbrG9jSLj26n9KhkMHAg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJrtBE3HmHLTmD8mfZUT+_JJqHSzvnUBMjnBVcjK1Qfcy9QyUQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <001201cd087c$ce8b3950$6ba1abf0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <201203230017.q2N0HkaL005075@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

Spike wrote:

>Canada is a nice country.  I really like Canada.  I consider it my 
>second favorite country, first choice if I wanted to flee the 
>current US government which is getting scarier every day.

I hope it's as simple as that, but what's been shared sounds messier.
Whatever the explanation and sequence of events, I hope we get an
unambiguous report that he's okay.


-- David.



From spike66 at att.net  Fri Mar 23 00:51:10 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 17:51:10 -0700
Subject: [ExI] bees again
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armgF-iY7QodF48qAHhO4rHmBBLRHKPmLbXV3jTe-vt_3BA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <000f01cd0874$1dfa1690$59ee43b0$@att.net>
 <20120322220100.GP9891@leitl.org>
 <CAL_armgF-iY7QodF48qAHhO4rHmBBLRHKPmLbXV3jTe-vt_3BA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <002f01cd088f$0a2fe930$1e8fbb90$@att.net>


>... On Behalf Of BillK
Subject: Re: [ExI] bees again

On Thu, Mar 22, 2012 at 10:01 PM, Eugen Leitl wrote:
>> I thought the link to neonicotinoid insecticides was pretty strong, and
established years ago.
>

>...Only in Europe. That's why Germany, Italy and France have banned them.
The suspicion is that the USA is protecting Monsanto, Dow, DuPont and Union
Carbide and refusing to ban them.
<http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2010/11/467782.html>  BillK



Owww, damn, now I am pissed offwardly.  I like bees, bees are my friends,
don't like to see harm come to them.  To see two bees within a pace of each
other, both stunned and unable to fly, along with the three negative results
for parasites this season and two dissections without finding tracheal mites
all point to a pesticide.  Parasites or viruses wouldn't strike both beasts
right there together at the same time.  But a pesticide would.  I have a
mind to report this observation to my bee forum.

spike



From msd001 at gmail.com  Thu Mar 22 23:42:58 2012
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 19:42:58 -0400
Subject: [ExI] bees again
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armgF-iY7QodF48qAHhO4rHmBBLRHKPmLbXV3jTe-vt_3BA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <000f01cd0874$1dfa1690$59ee43b0$@att.net>
 <20120322220100.GP9891@leitl.org>
 <CAL_armgF-iY7QodF48qAHhO4rHmBBLRHKPmLbXV3jTe-vt_3BA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOJFdb+7_sSvWDpt-=6DzEXgj4rcGTFz8TOh133+8FeW3dwCUw@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Mar 22, 2012 at 7:18 PM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 22, 2012 at 10:01 PM, Eugen Leitl wrote:
>> I thought the link to neonicotinoid insecticides was pretty strong, and established
>> years ago.
>>
>
> Only in Europe. That's why Germany, Italy and France have banned them.
>
> The suspicion is that the USA is protecting Monsanto, Dow, DuPont and
> Union Carbide and refusing to ban them.
>
> <http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2010/11/467782.html>

USA won't protect its people from their own gluttony and greed, why
would we sacrifice corporate gain for some bees?


From pjmanney at gmail.com  Fri Mar 23 01:13:25 2012
From: pjmanney at gmail.com (PJ Manney)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 18:13:25 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Mike Treder is missing
In-Reply-To: <201203192223.q2JMNTsa021850@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <CAMp1VPDRXVyLpgWZwO85GiTMf4OpQ2yTJ-c7JCheUZTeXDffZQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <001101cd0581$3943d800$abcb8800$@cc>
 <201203192223.q2JMNTsa021850@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <CAJrtBE3m2jcRzCD2=7ysoRAKmQWDRQTJ7gaDJkByB+m_OtZgHQ@mail.gmail.com>

http://www.freep.com/article/20120322/NEWS01/203220534/Family-calls-off-search-for-New-York-man-who-went-missing-in-Detroit?odyssey=tab%7Ctopnews%7Ctext%7CFRONTPAGE

PJ
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From steinberg.will at gmail.com  Fri Mar 23 05:12:38 2012
From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2012 00:12:38 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Mike Treder is missing
In-Reply-To: <CAJrtBE3m2jcRzCD2=7ysoRAKmQWDRQTJ7gaDJkByB+m_OtZgHQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMp1VPDRXVyLpgWZwO85GiTMf4OpQ2yTJ-c7JCheUZTeXDffZQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <001101cd0581$3943d800$abcb8800$@cc>
 <201203192223.q2JMNTsa021850@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <CAJrtBE3m2jcRzCD2=7ysoRAKmQWDRQTJ7gaDJkByB+m_OtZgHQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKrqSyHCgP6hD9_rWrR2XfX55odBd8pEBupgzR2tKrybBnJYhw@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Mar 22, 2012 at 8:13 PM, PJ Manney <pjmanney at gmail.com> wrote:

>
> http://www.freep.com/article/20120322/NEWS01/203220534/Family-calls-off-search-for-New-York-man-who-went-missing-in-Detroit?odyssey=tab%7Ctopnews%7Ctext%7CFRONTPAGE
>
>

...shady as fuck
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Fri Mar 23 06:51:40 2012
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 23:51:40 -0700
Subject: [ExI] what comes after the hipster?
In-Reply-To: <018601cd084d$304fc2d0$90ef4870$@att.net>
References: <20120322121015.GS9891@leitl.org>
 <018601cd084d$304fc2d0$90ef4870$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy1ffZdUuCviM4_2f=JdPp-UL0CmbDztcEkh8K4Gv9=tNg@mail.gmail.com>

This is yet another time where I think to myself, "I am so glad I subscribe
to the Extropy list, for the many things which I find out about."  And I
was not even aware of the Flavorwire website.


John  : )

On Thu, Mar 22, 2012 at 9:59 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

>
> >... On Behalf Of Eugen Leitl
> Subject: [ExI] what comes after the hipster?
>
>
> >...This one is for spike.
>
> >...
> http://flavorwire.com/269261/what-comes-after-the-hipster-we-ask-the-exp
> erts?all=1
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> Thanks Gene.  This is an article written by hipster hipsters.
>
> spike
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Fri Mar 23 06:35:14 2012
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 23:35:14 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Mike Treder is missing
In-Reply-To: <CAKrqSyHCgP6hD9_rWrR2XfX55odBd8pEBupgzR2tKrybBnJYhw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMp1VPDRXVyLpgWZwO85GiTMf4OpQ2yTJ-c7JCheUZTeXDffZQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <001101cd0581$3943d800$abcb8800$@cc>
 <201203192223.q2JMNTsa021850@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <CAJrtBE3m2jcRzCD2=7ysoRAKmQWDRQTJ7gaDJkByB+m_OtZgHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyHCgP6hD9_rWrR2XfX55odBd8pEBupgzR2tKrybBnJYhw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy1sorB_h_Rg0JvNsd_zbh_8AZ3y0NSSrDCanaDX=V13Sw@mail.gmail.com>

I am just so relieved that Mike is alive!!!  I was convinced that his
robbed corpse would be found somewhere.


John  : )

2012/3/22 Will Steinberg <steinberg.will at gmail.com>

> On Thu, Mar 22, 2012 at 8:13 PM, PJ Manney <pjmanney at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> http://www.freep.com/article/20120322/NEWS01/203220534/Family-calls-off-search-for-New-York-man-who-went-missing-in-Detroit?odyssey=tab%7Ctopnews%7Ctext%7CFRONTPAGE
>>
>>
>
> ...shady as fuck
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Fri Mar 23 07:55:39 2012
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2012 00:55:39 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Dr. Peter Diamandis on Coast to Coast AM with George Noory
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy2O6gyV8LBFfmrbsJRUecOvDKLLMvWn3+jS2qm7Hc4qQQ@mail.gmail.com>

The extremely popular radio talk show, "Coast to Coast AM with George
Noory," had Dr. Peter Diamandis as their special guest.  I found it
wonderful that a mainstream audience of millions got to listen to an
interview with such a great visionary!


http://www.coasttocoastam.com/show/2012/03/22


It is only $6.90 a month to subscribe to the audio archive, and then you
do not have to endure the many commercials...


https://members.premiereinteractive.com/pcd/document?ikey=99989IGTZ


Ben Goertzel will be the special guest on March 28th...


http://www.coasttocoastam.com/show/2012/03/28


John  : )
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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Fri Mar 23 12:03:30 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2012 13:03:30 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Mike Treder is missing
In-Reply-To: <CAGSKFy1sorB_h_Rg0JvNsd_zbh_8AZ3y0NSSrDCanaDX=V13Sw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMp1VPDRXVyLpgWZwO85GiTMf4OpQ2yTJ-c7JCheUZTeXDffZQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <001101cd0581$3943d800$abcb8800$@cc>
 <201203192223.q2JMNTsa021850@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <CAJrtBE3m2jcRzCD2=7ysoRAKmQWDRQTJ7gaDJkByB+m_OtZgHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyHCgP6hD9_rWrR2XfX55odBd8pEBupgzR2tKrybBnJYhw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGSKFy1sorB_h_Rg0JvNsd_zbh_8AZ3y0NSSrDCanaDX=V13Sw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a7wEJwmYxbg5fU+fPEgrOsdh76a+ySjYzf7uF2F_OscTA@mail.gmail.com>

2012/3/23 John Grigg <possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com>

> I am just so relieved that Mike is alive!!!  I was convinced that his
> robbed corpse would be found somewhere.
>

This may be a cultural thing, but I have always been neutral.

In principle, if one gets lost, it may be voluntary or involuntary, no real
way to tell until some evidence comes up.

Of course, it is reasonable for family and acquaintances to file a
"missing-person" report, just in case. If it *is* voluntary, and the
individual concerned does not welcome the publicity possibly involved, he
had better to prevent somebody.

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From eugen at leitl.org  Fri Mar 23 13:38:22 2012
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2012 14:38:22 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Bon Voyage, Fred Chamberlain
Message-ID: <20120323133822.GP9891@leitl.org>


http://chronopause.com/index.php/2012/03/22/bon-voyage-fred-chamberlain/

Bon Voyage, Fred Chamberlain

Posted on March 22, 2012 by chronopause	

I was an 18 year old kid feeding quarters into a payphone in front of a
Piggly Wiggly grocery store at 9 o?clock on a summer night in 1973, in
Augusta, Georgia. On the other end of the line was a middle aged aeronautical
engineer in La Crescenta, California, not far from the Jet Propulsion
Laboratory, feeding me dreams. He wasn?t telling me about the spaceship he
was working on to explore the outer planets, instead, we were talking about
the time machine he was building to take us to the future. You see, I was
helping him with the design ? my part was the bubble trap, where pressure and
temperature would be measured.

The engineer?s name was Fred Chamberlain, and we had met the year before at
his home where he, his wife Linda and I had had dinner and had looked over
the various parts of the time machine project. It was then that I noticed
that the device was missing a critical component ? a bubble trap ? a device
to prevent dangerous air bubbles from entering the circulatory system of the
time traveler. Fred immediately saw the importance of the oversight and I set
about designing a bubble trap that would fit into the device as he had
already configured it.

We had been in correspondence for several years before we  met. Though I was
just a boy, we shared a dream to voyage into space and conquer the stars. To
do that, both of us understood we would have to become time travelers,
because we were trapped in a time and place that was wholly unsuited to our
ambitions and aims. We had been born too soon. We were doomed to grow old and
die before our species mastered the technology to venture forth from the
world of birth and set sail in the cosmos. The only way we could see out of
this tragedy, Fred, Linda and me, was to become time travelers, in fact a
very special sort of time traveler ? medical time travelers.

What kid, then or now, wouldn?t kill to have a life like that? Isn?t that the
stuff that dreams are made of and the juvenile SF novels are plotted around?
Nobody has a life like that and everyone knows that a story like that
couldn?t possibly be true.

And yet, every word I?ve written there is true, and I?ve got the pictures to
prove it; and you?ve just seen them.

Fred Chamberlain was a NASA-JPL engineer working on the
Mariner-Jupiter-Saturn mission in 1973 and we had that conversation and many
like it. And we planned the mission Fred began yesterday and many more like
it before, and to follow. The time machine we were working on was actually
for a ?fourth? of us, not mentioned in my story, Fred?s father, Fred, Jr.,
and it was indeed used to launch him on his journey on XXXXX of 1976. And
yes, my bubble trap was and integral and successfully component of that
mission.

Frederick Rockwell Chamberlain, III was and is of absolutely critical
importance to cryonics. While most people with more than a passing
acquaintance with cryonics will associate his importance with the founding of
Alcor, that is in reality only a surrogate marker for his deeper importance.
Fred came on the scene in cryonics in what was unarguably its darkest hour.
It had degenerated into little more than a fraudulent cult in California and,
everywhere in the US, it had lost all vestiges of technical and scientific
rigor.

When Fred discovered this in his role as Vice President of the Cryonics
Society of California (CSC) he not only left CSC and founded Alcor, he and
Linda Chamberlain established, for the first time anywhere, the practice of
scientific, evidence based cryonics; cryonics based on the scientific method,
on documentation of procedures, policies, cryopreservation protocols and
rigorous patient case reports. He and Linda mandated not only scientific and
technical accountability, but administrative, financial and legal
accountability as well.

In doing these things, Fred and Linda attracted and mentored others. Fred?s
personality and his military background brokered no compromise and his
mentoring profoundly shaped me and a few others, molding us into the
irascible and generally disagreeable inhuman beings we are today. At one time
Fred was responsible for replenishing the tritium supply of all of the
hydrogen warheads in the US arsenal. Men given that responsibility do not
suffer fools gladly.

Personally, Fred taught me a great deal about engineering; not about the
mathematics of it, but about engineering at the systems level, about how to
look at a complex problem and tease it apart without being overwhelmed by it.
He had a fantastic ability to see and solve problems at a meta-level, and he
was able to communicate that to others.

Fred Chamberlain helped to build three incredible machines. Both had their
origin at roughly the same place and at roughly the same time in the
foothills of the Santa Monica mountains near Pasadena, California. Two
Voyager spacecraft are on their way to the stars moving  through the
heliopause at ~ 16.08 km/s as I write this. The other, a medical time
machine, currently located in Scottsdale, Arizona, is moving relentlessly
forward with its precious cargo of time-stopped souls one slow day at a time.
Godspeed to both of you!

Linda,

 You can believe me when I say that I do have some idea of your loss. Only
some, I?m sure. It has been a hell of a last few weeks for me, but nothing to
what you?re going through now.

 Man, oh man! I miss him already, and I haven?t laid eyes on him in years.

 I remember all those years ago in La Crescenta, we were so young, and yet we
were planning for this very goddamn eventuality. We were actually planning
for it, thinking about it, talking about it, working towards it. We knew it
would come, and in a weird sort of way, we hoped it would come, because the
alternative would be that if it didn?t come for us at all, we would be one of
the truly unlucky ones that fell through the cracks, like Marce did. Still,
we have his loss to bear for now, and for some unknown seasons of tomorrows
yet to come.

Fred (left) cryopreserving his own father, Fred Jr., in 1976.

But remember Linda, it was just yesterday that we planned for this day now so
soon arrived ? a plan that has been, as we so rightly foresaw, flawlessly
executed. Now, let us be patient just a ?little? while longer, and work
again, just a ?little? bit harder, so that we can awaken tomorrow, and find
that that other day that we talked about, dreamed about, planned for and
worked towards has also arrived, in which we find ourselves together again ?
not in ?paradise,? but in this world, planning for, thinking about, talking
about and working towards those other dreams that we had to put on hold,
simply in order to survive.

Let us look forward to those goals and dreams and many, many more still
undreamt and unimagined, to which we shall again apply ourselves when the
tear-blindness of our grief subsides.

Mike Darwin





Fred Chamberlain III: First Life Cycle: 1935-2012

by Linda Chamberlain

Fred Chamberlain III recently had his brain placed into cryostasis at the
Alcor Life Extension Foundation in Scottsdale. His physical presence will be
missed by many friends, biological family and chosen family until technology
allows a future instantiation to be with us once again.

Among his many talents, Fred wrote inspiring poetry and loved to play the
guitar and keyboard. He was one of the most intellectually creative and
energetic people I?ve had the privilege to know. He just recently published
BioQuagmire, which in my opinion is the best transhuman, life extension novel
ever written. Fred (together with me and other authors) published a volume of
life extension and transhumanist short stories in the 1980s called Life
Quest.

The picture above shows Fred when he was in his twenties working in bomb
disposal as a Navy diver. He was interested in ethics and was a strong
supporter of Ayn Rand?s ideology. Fred became actively involved in cryonics
in 1969 in order to get his father, Fred Chamberlain Jr., suspended (Alcor
News, August 1976). Fred and I met and became Forever Buddies in 1970 while
working on the committee to organize the second national cryonics conference,
held in Los Angeles, CA.

Here we see Fred in his thirties, sitting on the rim of the Grand Canyon. He
was an engineer at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL) in Pasadena, Southern
California, where he worked on the Voyager missions to Jupiter and other
fascinating projects.

That?s when I first met and fell in love with him. One of our great
intellectual and emotional bonds was our interest in technological means of
extending life. Fred and I incorporated the Alcor Life Extension Foundation
in 1972; the minutes of those early Alcor meetings can be viewed by  those
who might be interested. Many details from those early years are available on
Wikipedia.

The photo to the right shows Fred in his 60?s when he and I were again active
in Alcor between 1997 and 2001.

The picture on the left above shows us in 2002 when we renewed our wedding
vows on a beach in Cozumel with a traditional Mayan wedding with both of us
wearing traditional Mayan wedding dress.

Inspired by the Mindfile tools and programs being developed by Terasem
(including but not limited to CyBeRev.org and LifeNaut.com), and seeing
Mindfiles as an absolutely essential part of any personal life extension
plan, we moved to Melbourne, Florida in 2010 to contribute as much as
possible to the Terasem Movement while we remain in biological bodies, and
then continue doing so when emulated as cyberbeings. We made a presentation
about Cybertwins at Terasem?s 5th Annual Colloquium on the Law of Futuristic
Persons in Second Life (on Terasem Island), on December 10th, 2009.

Fred recently had his brain placed into cryostasis at the Alcor Life
Extension Foundation in Scottsdale, to preserve his Connectome as additional
Mindfile information. Though I will have to carry on alone for both of us for
a short while before we see each other in cyberspace, Fred is still part of
all of us in the Terasem Collective Consciousness and we will continue to
enjoy his warm creativity again soon as well as through his poetry and many
writings.

As they say on the Star Pebble, See you in the next cycle.

With all my love,

Linda Chamberlain

To view online with active links: http://www.lifepact.com/OdeToFred.pdf


From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Fri Mar 23 14:52:43 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2012 15:52:43 +0100
Subject: [ExI] The NSA's new data center
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2fp77OtogSLfJ9s2wxKpuF1LnfS7yhfk8ZXnh2zUGrepA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <201203172251.q2HMphhn024879@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <CAM5aL2dXQdi8Kdm+TkHPi6Rqzus0uB9c5xubvJB5rw544rd=0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a40aLY09gmJh8N59y08pWQ70V25ENaEdazTZRGmnumfSw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2fp77OtogSLfJ9s2wxKpuF1LnfS7yhfk8ZXnh2zUGrepA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a5F80+CXiinanZjTiBSKcWf7xNA3Vp_TuT0MLe2DsS=jw@mail.gmail.com>

2012/3/22 Dave Sill <sparge at gmail.com>

> As I said, my primary concern is that this information could be used by
> those who have it to ensure that their power isn't diminished by those who,
> at least theoretically, have the power to do so. I don't have anything to
> hide, but I'm *sure* there are people in Washington who *do*, and I'm also
> sure they're not all as careful as they should be. J. Edgar Hoover
> supposedly had secret files containing embarrassing information about his
> enemies. Imagine what he could have done with access to everyone's mail and
> telephone calls.
>

Yes. But I do not believe in "legal" limitations, which lull the
individuals concerned in an ill-conceived sense of security, and which even
in a best-case scenario only involve the fact that the information
illegally collected cannot be used for evidentiary purposes in court (while
it certainly is for any other purpose).

So, abuse of information is best counteracted upon by not making life
easier for your opponents and by collecting yourself information on them.

On the contrary, legal limitations usually go hand-in-hand with either
asymmetries between "public", procedurally-compliant and private snooping;
or with limitations to self-defence; or both.

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Fri Mar 23 14:56:10 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2012 15:56:10 +0100
Subject: [ExI] bees again
In-Reply-To: <000f01cd0874$1dfa1690$59ee43b0$@att.net>
References: <000f01cd0874$1dfa1690$59ee43b0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a7uzgGZM3GWEpB_fSJZDepMGQgxPnuOFAO+acXYoEmanw@mail.gmail.com>

2012/3/22 spike <spike66 at att.net>

> WOW a really good clue today was observed.****
>
> ** **
>
> The general decline of honeybees has been documented nearly everywhere,
> but there is no consensus on the cause.
>

"Goodby, and thanks for all the pollin"? :-)

BTW, honey is such a nutritional horror that it really represents the
exception to the general rule-of-the-thumb rule that you are quite fine if
you feed yourself only with what could be eaten unprocessed and in a
paleolithic context.

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From spike66 at att.net  Fri Mar 23 15:59:39 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2012 08:59:39 -0700
Subject: [ExI] bees again
In-Reply-To: <CAPoR7a7uzgGZM3GWEpB_fSJZDepMGQgxPnuOFAO+acXYoEmanw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <000f01cd0874$1dfa1690$59ee43b0$@att.net>
 <CAPoR7a7uzgGZM3GWEpB_fSJZDepMGQgxPnuOFAO+acXYoEmanw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <007101cd090d$f4711950$dd534bf0$@att.net>

 

 

>. On Behalf Of Stefano Vaj
Subject: Re: [ExI] bees again

 

2012/3/22 spike <spike66 at att.net>

WOW a really good clue today was observed.

{.two dying bees together.}

 

Can anyone here think of any alternate explanation besides poisoning for
seeing two bees dying together, same place, same time, same stage of
decline?  This twin death had the same symptoms as others I have observed:
the bees couldn't fly, but could still walk, did not show age effects such
as tattered wing trailing edges, and were passive.  I carried at least three
of them home in the palm of my hand and none made any attempt to sting.  All
died within an hour of being observed walking.  A virus wouldn't slay them
that quickly I wouldn't think, and a parasite would be an even slower
decline.

I have a mind to talk to that homeowner, find out what pesticides they use.
Don't know what to do with the info, but I want it anyway.

spike

 

 

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From steinberg.will at gmail.com  Fri Mar 23 16:59:45 2012
From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2012 11:59:45 -0500
Subject: [ExI] bees again
In-Reply-To: <007101cd090d$f4711950$dd534bf0$@att.net>
References: <000f01cd0874$1dfa1690$59ee43b0$@att.net>
 <CAPoR7a7uzgGZM3GWEpB_fSJZDepMGQgxPnuOFAO+acXYoEmanw@mail.gmail.com>
 <007101cd090d$f4711950$dd534bf0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAKrqSyFt-x2ki4R0=RgbV00-HJ-k8ZPDa-akf-cim4uaDEZk5g@mail.gmail.com>

Damning in favor of pesticide.  If they got hurt by anything but what was
directly around them when you found them, this would imply that TWO bees
who both had the disorder somehow WALKED together to a random place.  What,
were they on a date?

In fact, can bees even direct others to locations without waggle-dancing?
 It seems to me that a bee which cannot fly has no hope of navigating.  The
most plausible answer would have to be that the bees were directed to the
flowers, ate some bad shit, and got a case of the no-fly-ies.

HOWEVER.  We also have to ask how those bees knew how to get to the flowers
in the first place.  This implies they were guided there by a bee who
already interacted with the flowers.  If the disease is immediate, how did
the original scout bee report his findings to the hive?  Looks like you
have to either say that the poison is slow-acting and that's how the scout
was able to survive long enough to waggle, or that the poison is
fast-acting and that's why the bees were found so close to the scene of the
crime.

A consideration to make is that perhaps the hive is very close to the
house.  That would solve a few problems.  The main problem is that if
pesticide is immediately damaging, then the pesticide-laden flowers could
never be reported to the hive.  But there were two bees!

Thus one of the facts which leads to your conclusions must be more tricky
than it seems.  Perhaps the bees live under that yard, and the pesticides
slowly drip into their hive.  I suggest you take a spade and dig up that
yard. (joking!  maybe.)  You may find a mass bee grave.
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From pharos at gmail.com  Fri Mar 23 16:33:17 2012
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2012 16:33:17 +0000
Subject: [ExI] bees again
In-Reply-To: <007101cd090d$f4711950$dd534bf0$@att.net>
References: <000f01cd0874$1dfa1690$59ee43b0$@att.net>
 <CAPoR7a7uzgGZM3GWEpB_fSJZDepMGQgxPnuOFAO+acXYoEmanw@mail.gmail.com>
 <007101cd090d$f4711950$dd534bf0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAL_armgvWNacE2k=kHw4eDWeOW1fBoV=AUwep53tHxxfZvikQQ@mail.gmail.com>

2012/3/23 spike wrote:
> Can anyone here think of any alternate explanation besides poisoning for
> seeing two bees dying together, same place, same time, same stage of
> decline?? This twin death had the same symptoms as others I have observed:
> the bees couldn?t fly, but could still walk, did not show age effects such
> as tattered wing trailing edges, and were passive.? I carried at least three
> of them home in the palm of my hand and none made any attempt to sting.? All
> died within an hour of being observed walking.? A virus wouldn?t slay them
> that quickly I wouldn?t think, and a parasite would be an even slower
> decline.
>
> I have a mind to talk to that homeowner, find out what pesticides they use.
> Don?t know what to do with the info, but I want it anyway.
>
>

The US bee-keepers are already doing something.

<http://truefoodnow.org/2012/03/21/beekeepers-environmental-groups-to-epa-pesticide-approval-is-irresponsible-damaging/>
Quote:
Beekeepers & Environmental Groups to EPA: Pesticide Approval is
?Irresponsible? & ?Damaging?
Posted on March 21, 2012

Over 1 million urge EPA to suspend use of pesticide harmful to bees,
fix broken regulatory system

Today, commercial beekeepers and environmental organizations filed an
urgent legal petition with the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency
(EPA) to suspend further use of a pesticide the agency knows poses
harm to honey bees, and adopt safeguards to ensure similar future
pesticides aren?t approved by the agency. The legal petition is
supported by over one million citizen petitions also submitted today
that were collected from people across the country calling out one
pesticide in particular ? clothianidin ? for its harmful impacts on
honey bees.?EPA has an obligation to protect pollinators from the
threat of pesticides,? said Jeff Anderson of California Minnesota
Honey Farms, a co-petitioner. ?The Agency has failed to adequately
regulate pesticides harmful to pollinators despite scientific and
on-the-ground evidence presented by academics and beekeepers.?
----------------

The harmful pesticides are called neonicotinoids.
That includes
    Acetamiprid
    Clothianidin
    Dinotefuran
    Imidacloprid
    Nitenpyram
    Thiacloprid
    Thiamethoxam
but there are probably lots of domestic use brand names available in the US.


BillK



From sparge at gmail.com  Fri Mar 23 17:39:26 2012
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2012 13:39:26 -0400
Subject: [ExI] bees again
In-Reply-To: <CAPoR7a7uzgGZM3GWEpB_fSJZDepMGQgxPnuOFAO+acXYoEmanw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <000f01cd0874$1dfa1690$59ee43b0$@att.net>
 <CAPoR7a7uzgGZM3GWEpB_fSJZDepMGQgxPnuOFAO+acXYoEmanw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2cigJaXOvWFDAz7PkKzs-EJLKJtp+AT2seWowOwMLOtEQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Mar 23, 2012 at 10:56 AM, Stefano Vaj <stefano.vaj at gmail.com> wrote:

> BTW, honey is such a nutritional horror that it really represents the
> exception to the general rule-of-the-thumb rule that you are quite fine if
> you feed yourself only with what could be eaten unprocessed and in a
> paleolithic context.


Firstly, honey isn't that bad. See:

  http://www.marksdailyapple.com/is-honey-a-safer-sweetener/

Secondly, if you have to harvest honey like a paleolith, I doubt it's going
to be a major source of food. An occasional treat, sure. But not something
that  contributes a significant fraction of the yearly caloric intake.

Thirdly, the primary contribution of bees to humanity is not a producer of
honey, it's as a pollinator. The US gov't may be doing a favor for BigChem
by not banning neonicotinoids, but their buddies at ADM, Cargill, etc.
won't be happy if the be decline isn't reversed soon.

-Dave
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From spike66 at att.net  Fri Mar 23 18:19:16 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2012 11:19:16 -0700
Subject: [ExI] bees again
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2cigJaXOvWFDAz7PkKzs-EJLKJtp+AT2seWowOwMLOtEQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <000f01cd0874$1dfa1690$59ee43b0$@att.net>
 <CAPoR7a7uzgGZM3GWEpB_fSJZDepMGQgxPnuOFAO+acXYoEmanw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2cigJaXOvWFDAz7PkKzs-EJLKJtp+AT2seWowOwMLOtEQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <002601cd0921$75b3f0b0$611bd210$@att.net>

 

 

From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Dave Sill



>.

 

>.Firstly, honey isn't that bad. See:

 

>.  http://www.marksdailyapple.com/is-honey-a-safer-sweetener/

 

>.-Dave

 

Perhaps not, but I can calmly assure you, I wouldn't touch the stuff,
wouldn't even put it on someone else's food.  If you were to see firsthand
how actual honey is extracted, the facility, the entire process, you would.
well, suffice it to say a honey extraction facility is the vegetarian's
equivalent of a slaughterhouse.  

 

No, that is an understatement, slaughterhouses are waaaay more closely
regulated.  They let beekeepers pretty much do whatever they want, since no
one actually gets sick from it.  

 

You have heard me go on about how our digestive systems can handle bugs, ja?
How do I know?  Well, I know that if the bugs are crushed and their, um.
whatever is inside a bug gets into honey from the centrifugal extractor, it
doesn't seem to harm anyone, ja?  Have you ever heard of anyone getting sick
from honey?  I haven't.  So bug guts won't hurt you a bit.  If you are the
squicky type and like honey, I advise you not ask too many questions.  {8^D


 

I used to like honey, until I worked for a beekeeper.  Haven't touched it
since, don't intend to take it upward.

 

spike

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From spike66 at att.net  Fri Mar 23 21:49:48 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2012 14:49:48 -0700
Subject: [ExI] bees again
In-Reply-To: <CAKrqSyFt-x2ki4R0=RgbV00-HJ-k8ZPDa-akf-cim4uaDEZk5g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <000f01cd0874$1dfa1690$59ee43b0$@att.net>
 <CAPoR7a7uzgGZM3GWEpB_fSJZDepMGQgxPnuOFAO+acXYoEmanw@mail.gmail.com>
 <007101cd090d$f4711950$dd534bf0$@att.net>
 <CAKrqSyFt-x2ki4R0=RgbV00-HJ-k8ZPDa-akf-cim4uaDEZk5g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <004001cd093e$de9bfec0$9bd3fc40$@att.net>

 

 

>. On Behalf Of Will Steinberg
Subject: Re: [ExI] bees again

 

>.Damning in favor of pesticide.TWO bees who both had the disorder somehow
WALKED together to a random place.  What, were they on a date?

 

Not unless they were lesbians.  Neither were drones.

 

>.In fact, can bees even direct others to locations without waggle-dancing? 

 

Ja, read on:

 

>. It seems to me that a bee which cannot fly has no hope of navigating.
The most plausible answer would have to be that the bees were directed to
the flowers, ate some bad shit, and got a case of the no-fly-ies.

 

The bees are going nuts, because everything is in bloom.  The pollen was so
high I could scarcely talk Monday.  One of my son's classmates passed out
from what we think was an allergic reaction.

 

>.HOWEVER.  We also have to ask how those bees knew how to get to the
flowers in the first place.

 

Eeeverything is in bloom, no waggle dancing required.  It is a very bee-ey
month.  Or is it beey?  I perhaps could adverb it and say it is being beely
pollinated outdoors today, a beeish yard I have, the beeity is high indeed.

 

I got a great additional clue today, which I will reveal when I get home.

 

spike

 

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From spike66 at att.net  Fri Mar 23 22:50:17 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2012 15:50:17 -0700
Subject: [ExI] bees again
In-Reply-To: <004001cd093e$de9bfec0$9bd3fc40$@att.net>
References: <000f01cd0874$1dfa1690$59ee43b0$@att.net>
 <CAPoR7a7uzgGZM3GWEpB_fSJZDepMGQgxPnuOFAO+acXYoEmanw@mail.gmail.com>
 <007101cd090d$f4711950$dd534bf0$@att.net>
 <CAKrqSyFt-x2ki4R0=RgbV00-HJ-k8ZPDa-akf-cim4uaDEZk5g@mail.gmail.com>
 <004001cd093e$de9bfec0$9bd3fc40$@att.net>
Message-ID: <005c01cd0947$51e6ca60$f5b45f20$@att.net>

 

 

>. On Behalf Of Will Steinberg
Subject: Re: [ExI] bees again

 

>>.Damning in favor of pesticide.

 

>.I got a great additional clue today, which I will reveal when I get
home.spike

 

I went to talk to the neighbors where I found the dying bees, see if I could
wheedle out of them what they are spraying.  I noticed that along with their
lavenders, periwinkles, tulips and other decorative annuals, they also had
several rose bushes and I have no idea how to express that sentence without
sounding gay.  Roses are a ton of work if you want them to produce nice
flowers, along with a lot of sprays to control the aphids.  Surfactants
alone are usually not enough, so you usually need some of the more sincere
pesticides, which is why I took out my own roses.

 

Perhaps the homeowner sprayed the roses, and the bees came for the other
flowers and got in that rose spray, but I can calmly assure you I am as
hetero as John Wayne.

 

spike

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From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 23 22:52:17 2012
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2012 15:52:17 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Bug guts and other fare
In-Reply-To: <002601cd0921$75b3f0b0$611bd210$@att.net>
References: <000f01cd0874$1dfa1690$59ee43b0$@att.net>
 <CAPoR7a7uzgGZM3GWEpB_fSJZDepMGQgxPnuOFAO+acXYoEmanw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2cigJaXOvWFDAz7PkKzs-EJLKJtp+AT2seWowOwMLOtEQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <002601cd0921$75b3f0b0$611bd210$@att.net>
Message-ID: <1332543137.41098.YahooMailNeo@web164504.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

________________________________
>From: spike <spike66 at att.net>
>To: 'ExI chat list' <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> 
>Sent: Friday, March 23, 2012 11:19 AM
>Subject: Re: [ExI] bees again

>From:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Dave Sill
>
>
>>?
>?
>>?Firstly, honey isn't that bad. See:
>?
>>???http://www.marksdailyapple.com/is-honey-a-safer-sweetener/
>?
>>?-Dave
>?
>Perhaps not, but I can calmly assure you, I wouldn?t touch the stuff, wouldn?t even put it on someone else?s food.? If you were to see firsthand how actual honey is extracted, the facility, the entire process, you would?? well, suffice it to say a honey extraction facility is the vegetarian?s equivalent of a slaughterhouse.? 

FWIW honey is a source calories that last forever without refrigeration.?Archaeologists have found?edible honey in ancient tombs.?
?
>You have heard me go on about how our digestive systems can handle bugs, ja?? How do I know?? Well, I know that if the bugs are crushed and their, um? >whatever is inside a bug gets into honey from the centrifugal extractor, it doesn?t seem to harm anyone, ja?? Have you ever heard of anyone getting sick from >honey?? I haven?t.? So bug guts won?t hurt you a bit.? If you are the squicky type and like honey, I advise you not ask too many questions.? {8^D? 

When I was going through jungle survival training?at Forth Sherman,?Panama, the instructors who were all elite special forces,?made one thing clear to me:
?
In a survival situation, if one must choose between eating an unidentified plant or an unidentified animal, go with the unidentified animal. Plants generally produce toxins while animals generally do not. So if you eat an unidentified plant or mushroom in the woods, you are taking a huge risk. If you eat a?moving critter in the woods cooked or raw, no matter how disgusting it might be, you will likely be fine.
?
?
Stuart LaForge

"The state that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards, and its fighting by fools." -Thucydides.



From spike66 at att.net  Fri Mar 23 23:29:56 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2012 16:29:56 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Bug guts and other fare
In-Reply-To: <1332543137.41098.YahooMailNeo@web164504.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <000f01cd0874$1dfa1690$59ee43b0$@att.net>
 <CAPoR7a7uzgGZM3GWEpB_fSJZDepMGQgxPnuOFAO+acXYoEmanw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2cigJaXOvWFDAz7PkKzs-EJLKJtp+AT2seWowOwMLOtEQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <002601cd0921$75b3f0b0$611bd210$@att.net>
 <1332543137.41098.YahooMailNeo@web164504.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <007e01cd094c$dc0f7f20$942e7d60$@att.net>

>... On Behalf Of The Avantguardian
...
> 
>>...  If you were to see firsthand how actual honey is extracted, the facility, the entire process, you would?  well, suffice it to say a honey extraction facility is the vegetarian?s equivalent of a slaughterhouse.  

>...FWIW honey is a source calories that last forever without refrigeration. Archaeologists have found edible honey in ancient tombs.

Avant, didn't you hear that feller that put together Piltdown Man sneaked into the ancient tomb and put some fresh honey in there, just to screw with our minds.

I agree honey will keep forever.  I don't doubt that it is sterile, lots of antibiotics in there.  It's just really gross for people with a low squick threshold.  Mine is high, so I don't care.  Also consider the old timers didn't have centrifugal extractors or flatbed trucks kicking up dust, so they probably had a lot less foreign matter in their honey.
 
>In a survival situation, if one must choose between eating an unidentified plant or an unidentified animal, go with the unidentified animal... Stuart LaForge

Always, ja, the same thing I heard in scouts.  There are no poisonous animals.  If you can catch one, it is safer and more satisfying.  The digestive system knows not the difference between one beast and any other.  After a couple days of hunger, your mind will decide to play along as well. 

One thing about it is you don't want to use up all your remaining reserves trying to catch some beast you may not be able to catch.  Wild lupines will not run away.

spike




From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 23 23:31:34 2012
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2012 16:31:34 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] bees again
In-Reply-To: <005c01cd0947$51e6ca60$f5b45f20$@att.net>
References: <000f01cd0874$1dfa1690$59ee43b0$@att.net>
 <CAPoR7a7uzgGZM3GWEpB_fSJZDepMGQgxPnuOFAO+acXYoEmanw@mail.gmail.com>
 <007101cd090d$f4711950$dd534bf0$@att.net>
 <CAKrqSyFt-x2ki4R0=RgbV00-HJ-k8ZPDa-akf-cim4uaDEZk5g@mail.gmail.com>
 <004001cd093e$de9bfec0$9bd3fc40$@att.net>
 <005c01cd0947$51e6ca60$f5b45f20$@att.net>
Message-ID: <1332545494.77014.YahooMailNeo@web164504.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>



>
>?
>?
>>?On Behalf Of Will Steinberg
>Subject: Re: [ExI] bees again
>?
>>>?Damning in favor of pesticide?
>?
>>?I got a great additional clue today, which I will reveal when I get home?spike
>?
>I went to talk to the neighbors where I found the dying bees, see if I could wheedle out of them what they are spraying.? I noticed that along with their lavenders, periwinkles, tulips and other decorative annuals, they also had several rose bushes and I have no idea how to express that sentence without sounding gay.? Roses are a ton of work if you want them to produce nice flowers, along with a lot of sprays to control the aphids.? Surfactants alone are usually not enough, so you usually need some of the more sincere pesticides, which is why I took out my own roses.
>?
>Perhaps the homeowner sprayed the roses, and the bees came for the other flowers and got in that rose spray, but I can calmly assure you I am as hetero as John Wayne.

Tell your neighbor to diversify his garden. Alongside his?gay flowers, he should plant some yarrow, black-eyed susans,?or golden rods. These will attract the mighty ladybugs, aphid alligators, and lacewings which shall?bring about the aphid apocalypse?over the entire garden, except for where the ants are too numerous.?Ants are a?force to be reckoned with, sigh. Although ant spray applied to the ground, probably wouldn't touch the bees. He could also bolster natural numbers of aphid-eaters by buying live lady bugs at a garden supply store but if their prefered plants aren't around, the mercenary insects are not likely to stick around.??
?
Stuart LaForge


"The state that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards, and its fighting by fools." -Thucydides.




From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Sat Mar 24 00:25:10 2012
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2012 17:25:10 -0700
Subject: [ExI] bees again
In-Reply-To: <1332545494.77014.YahooMailNeo@web164504.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <000f01cd0874$1dfa1690$59ee43b0$@att.net>
 <CAPoR7a7uzgGZM3GWEpB_fSJZDepMGQgxPnuOFAO+acXYoEmanw@mail.gmail.com>
 <007101cd090d$f4711950$dd534bf0$@att.net>
 <CAKrqSyFt-x2ki4R0=RgbV00-HJ-k8ZPDa-akf-cim4uaDEZk5g@mail.gmail.com>
 <004001cd093e$de9bfec0$9bd3fc40$@att.net>
 <005c01cd0947$51e6ca60$f5b45f20$@att.net>
 <1332545494.77014.YahooMailNeo@web164504.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy3-Jc4gms9s3oi3_XfEP7_9WOx2Oeqsh0ugf1nAjT5HZg@mail.gmail.com>

This is off-topic, but have any of you heard the stories about out of
control carnivorous ladybugs that actually attacked humans?  A few
years ago outside of Phoenix, Arizona, some hikers were attacked &
bitten by malicious hordes of the insects!


John

On 3/23/12, The Avantguardian <avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>>
>>
>>
>>>?On Behalf Of Will Steinberg
>>Subject: Re: [ExI] bees again
>>
>>>>?Damning in favor of pesticide?
>>
>>>?I got a great additional clue today, which I will reveal when I get
>>> home?spike
>>
>>I went to talk to the neighbors where I found the dying bees, see if I
>> could wheedle out of them what they are spraying.? I noticed that along
>> with their lavenders, periwinkles, tulips and other decorative annuals,
>> they also had several rose bushes and I have no idea how to express that
>> sentence without sounding gay.? Roses are a ton of work if you want them
>> to produce nice flowers, along with a lot of sprays to control the
>> aphids.? Surfactants alone are usually not enough, so you usually need
>> some of the more sincere pesticides, which is why I took out my own roses.
>>
>>Perhaps the homeowner sprayed the roses, and the bees came for the other
>> flowers and got in that rose spray, but I can calmly assure you I am as
>> hetero as John Wayne.
>
> Tell your neighbor to diversify his garden. Alongside his?gay flowers, he
> should plant some yarrow, black-eyed susans,?or golden rods. These will
> attract the mighty ladybugs, aphid alligators, and lacewings which
> shall?bring about the aphid apocalypse?over the entire garden, except for
> where the ants are too numerous.?Ants are a?force to be reckoned with, sigh.
> Although ant spray applied to the ground, probably wouldn't touch the bees.
> He could also bolster natural numbers of aphid-eaters by buying live lady
> bugs at a garden supply store but if their prefered plants aren't around,
> the mercenary insects are not likely to stick around.
>
> Stuart LaForge
>
>
> "The state that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its
> thinking done by cowards, and its fighting by fools." -Thucydides.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>



From spike66 at att.net  Sat Mar 24 04:52:55 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2012 21:52:55 -0700
Subject: [ExI] therapeutic hypothermia
Message-ID: <005a01cd0979$fac500c0$f04f0240$@att.net>

 

You might have heard this, the soccer player had no pulse for 78 minutes,
but they managed to revive him.  What caught my attention is the comment in
the sixth paragraph from the bottom, where it says they cooled him while
they were trying to restart his heart.  Check out it:

 

http://thechart.blogs.cnn.com/2012/03/23/would-you-get-the-care-muamba-did/?
hpt=hp_t3

 

spike

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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Sat Mar 24 10:49:07 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2012 11:49:07 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Bug guts and other fare
In-Reply-To: <007e01cd094c$dc0f7f20$942e7d60$@att.net>
References: <000f01cd0874$1dfa1690$59ee43b0$@att.net>
 <CAPoR7a7uzgGZM3GWEpB_fSJZDepMGQgxPnuOFAO+acXYoEmanw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2cigJaXOvWFDAz7PkKzs-EJLKJtp+AT2seWowOwMLOtEQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <002601cd0921$75b3f0b0$611bd210$@att.net>
 <1332543137.41098.YahooMailNeo@web164504.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
 <007e01cd094c$dc0f7f20$942e7d60$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a5RpDOBP+C5_kzk+rtn5bzRdS2qH5jEtcRyNhyK-00dEA@mail.gmail.com>

On 24 March 2012 00:29, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

> There are no poisonous animals.
>

Well, to be fair, there are a few (from the top of my hand fugu - the
Japanese name of a fish I cannot translated in English, and poisonous
snake), but this only concerns parts of their body, and I agree that eating
unknown animals is by far one's best bet.

OTOH, they become poisonous with putrefaction, so it is best to get them
fresh. :-)

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Sat Mar 24 10:59:52 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2012 11:59:52 +0100
Subject: [ExI] bees again
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2cigJaXOvWFDAz7PkKzs-EJLKJtp+AT2seWowOwMLOtEQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <000f01cd0874$1dfa1690$59ee43b0$@att.net>
 <CAPoR7a7uzgGZM3GWEpB_fSJZDepMGQgxPnuOFAO+acXYoEmanw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2cigJaXOvWFDAz7PkKzs-EJLKJtp+AT2seWowOwMLOtEQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a49hztfSnP8aY33m7cD2SjrYEGqN-MnXkbpij+RrybW9g@mail.gmail.com>

2012/3/23 Dave Sill <sparge at gmail.com>

> Firstly, honey isn't that bad.
>

*That* being the operational word here. :-)

I have no doubt about its being much better under any aspect than refined
sugar, but then cocaine is less risky than crack, not to mention if
administered in a small dosage on rare occasions... :-)

No matter how natural something may be, high sugar content translates in a
glycemic peak and in insuline release. Lesser so with honey than with other
stuff, OK, but even if I had a sweet tooth, which I don't, I would not
really make much more of it than an emergency source of calories.

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From anders at aleph.se  Sat Mar 24 12:36:51 2012
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2012 12:36:51 +0000
Subject: [ExI] The NSA's new data center
In-Reply-To: <CAPoR7a5F80+CXiinanZjTiBSKcWf7xNA3Vp_TuT0MLe2DsS=jw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <201203172251.q2HMphhn024879@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <CAM5aL2dXQdi8Kdm+TkHPi6Rqzus0uB9c5xubvJB5rw544rd=0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a40aLY09gmJh8N59y08pWQ70V25ENaEdazTZRGmnumfSw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2fp77OtogSLfJ9s2wxKpuF1LnfS7yhfk8ZXnh2zUGrepA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a5F80+CXiinanZjTiBSKcWf7xNA3Vp_TuT0MLe2DsS=jw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4F6DBFE3.9070109@aleph.se>

I did a little calculation: at what point can governments spy 24/7 on 
their citizens and store all the data?

I used the World Bank World Development Indicators and IMF predictors 
for future GDP growth and the United nations median population 
forecasts, the fit 10.^(-.2502*(t-1980)+6.304) for the cost (in 
dollars)per gigabyte (found on various pages about Kryder's law) and the 
assumption that 24/7 video surveillance would require 10 TB per person 
per year.

Now, if we assume the total budget is 0.1% of the GDP and the storage is 
just 10% of that (the rest is overhead, power, cooling, facilities etc), 
then the conclusion is that doing this becomes feasible around 2020. 
Bermuda, Luxenbourg and Norway can do it in 2018, by 2019 most of 
Western Europe plus the US and Japan can do it. China gets there in 
2022. The last countries to reach this level are Eritrea and Liberia in 
2028, and finally Zimbabwe in 2031. By 2025 the US and China will be 
able to monitor all of humanity if they want to/are allowed.

So at least data storage is not going to be any problem. It would be 
very interesting to get some estimates of the change in cost of 
surveillance cameras and micro-drones, since presumably they are the 
ones that are actually going to be the major hardware costs. Offset a 
bit because we are helpfully adding surveillance capabilities to all our 
must-have smartphones and smart cars. I suspect the hardware part will 
delay introduction a bit in countries that want it, but that just mean 
there will be hardware overhang once they get their smart dust, locators 
or gnatbots.

Note that this kind of video archive is useful even if you don't have a 
myriad analysts, perfect speech recognition or AI (in fact, it would be 
a great incentive and training corpus for developing them). When you 
figure out that somebody is doing or have just done something nasty, you 
can easily backtrack and check on everybody they had been in touch with. 
It would be quite easy to catch most members of any rebel network this 
way as soon as it was recognized as a rebel network - and one could 
easily create incentives for not associating with potential subversives 
and/or reporting them, adding crowdsourced reporting. The only kind of 
uprisnings with any kind of chance would be spontaneous eruptions.

The more interesting (sinister) uses of this kind of intelligence corpus 
is of course to do trials and experiments to see what predicts social 
norm compliance and obedience. How well does various forms of nudging 
work? What about the longitudinal loyalty effects of natural or 
deliberate experiments? How well can you predict people from their 
saccade patterns?

We might actually be living in a short window of opportunity right now. 
The problem is not the surveillance per se, but the danger from 
non-accountable uses of them once they are in place. Totalitarian 
governments with this kind of transparency might prove extremely hard to 
dislodge, and could become stable attractor states. This suggests that 
we should work very hard on figuring out how to maintain government 
accountability even when it has total surveillance powers, and how to 
prevent open societies from sliding into the totalitarian trap. Given 
that the tail statistics of big disasters is dominated by pandemics, 
wars and democides we have very good reasons to view this as among the 
top questions for human survival.

Appendix:

2018    Bermuda
2018    Luxembourg
2018    Norway
2019    Australia
2019    Austria
2019    Belgium
2019    Canada
2019    Denmark
2019    Finland
2019    France
2019    Germany
2019    Iceland
2019    Ireland
2019    Japan
2019    Kuwait
2019    Netherlands
2019    Singapore
2019    Sweden
2019    Switzerland
2019    United Kingdom
2019    United States
2020    Cyprus
2020    French Polynesia
2020    Greece
2020    Israel
2020    Italy
2020    New Caledonia
2020    New Zealand
2020    Oman
2020    Puerto Rico
2020    Seychelles
2020    Slovakia
2020    Slovenia
2020    Spain
2020    United Arab Emirates
2021    Antigua and Barbuda
2021    Bahamas
2021    Bahrain
2021    Barbados
2021    Chile
2021    Croatia
2021    Czech Republic
2021    Equatorial Guinea
2021    Estonia
2021    Hungary
2021    Lithuania
2021    Poland
2021    Portugal
2021    Saudi Arabia
2021    Trinidad and Tobago
2021    Turkey
2022    Argentina
2022    Belarus
2022    Botswana
2022    Brazil
2022    Bulgaria
2022    China
2022    Costa Rica
2022    Cuba
2022    Dominica
2022    Dominican Republic
2022    Gabon
2022    Grenada
2022    Kazakhstan
2022    Latvia
2022    Lebanon
2022    Malaysia
2022    Mauritius
2022    Mexico
2022    Palau
2022    Panama
2022    Peru
2022    Romania
2022    South America
2022    Suriname
2022    Uruguay
2023    Albania
2023    Algeria
2023    Angola
2023    Azerbaijan
2023    Belize
2023    Bhutan
2023    Colombia
2023    Ecuador
2023    El Salvador
2023    Fiji
2023    Iraq
2023    Mongolia
2023    Morocco
2023    Namibia
2023    Serbia
2023    Thailand
2023    Tonga
2023    Tunisia
2023    Turkmenistan
2023    Ukraine
2024    Armenia
2024    Georgia
2024    Guatemala
2024    Guyana
2024    Honduras
2024    India
2024    Indonesia
2024    Marshall Islands
2024    Paraguay
2024    Philippines
2024    Samoa
2024    Sri Lanka
2024    Swaziland
2025    Bangladesh
2025    Cameroon
2025    Djibouti
2025    Egypt
2025    Ghana
2025    Lesotho
2025    Nicaragua
2025    Nigeria
2025    Pakistan
2025    Papua New Guinea
2025    Sao Tome and Principe
2025    Senegal
2025    Solomon Islands
2025    Sub-Saharan Africa
2025    Sudan
2025    Uzbekistan
2025    Zambia
2026    Afghanistan
2026    Benin
2026    Haiti
2026    Kenya
2026    Kyrgyzstan
2026    Mauritania
2026    Mozambique
2026    Tajikistan
2026    Uganda
2027    Central African Republic
2027    Chad
2027    Ethiopia
2027    Gambia
2027    Guinea
2027    Madagascar
2027    Malawi
2027    Mali
2027    Nepal
2027    Niger
2027    Rwanda
2027    Sierra Leone
2027    Togo
2028    Burundi
2028    Eritrea
2028    Liberia
2031    Zimbabwe

-- 
Anders Sandberg,
Future of Humanity Institute
Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University



From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Sat Mar 24 14:25:13 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2012 15:25:13 +0100
Subject: [ExI] The NSA's new data center
In-Reply-To: <4F6DBFE3.9070109@aleph.se>
References: <201203172251.q2HMphhn024879@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <CAM5aL2dXQdi8Kdm+TkHPi6Rqzus0uB9c5xubvJB5rw544rd=0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a40aLY09gmJh8N59y08pWQ70V25ENaEdazTZRGmnumfSw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2fp77OtogSLfJ9s2wxKpuF1LnfS7yhfk8ZXnh2zUGrepA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a5F80+CXiinanZjTiBSKcWf7xNA3Vp_TuT0MLe2DsS=jw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4F6DBFE3.9070109@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a67apVNFzrwBJyLDyc6shcOF5jOTGQVdRrCgu9rmhZMSw@mail.gmail.com>

On 24 March 2012 13:36, Anders Sandberg <anders at aleph.se> wrote:

> I did a little calculation: at what point can governments spy 24/7 on
> their citizens and store all the data?
>

Anders has a way always to come up with super-interesting data,
extrapolations and lateral-thinking insights... :-)

> We might actually be living in a short window of opportunity right now.
The problem is not the surveillance per se, but the danger from
non-accountable uses of them once they are in place.

This is however a "traditional" approach to the problem.

I am more inclined to take seriously Scott McNealy's (or at least I believe
to remember it is his) say: "Don't worry about your privacy. You have
already lost it", and be primarily concerned by informational asymmetries.

For instance, what the laws implementing the UE directive about personal
data processing actually do (or would like to achieve) is enforcing an
oligopoly on information where mechanisms are in place in order to make
States check what one does with the personal data one collects - thus
leading to increased, not lessened, social control and snooping - and in a
best-case scenario to prevent that State-owned personal data are profited
from for personal interests, no actual limits being in place as to "legal",
"accountable" collection and use of such data in the interest of the State
itself and of its stability.

Now, I am not much of a libertarian, but it seems to me that the
"oppression" risk comes rather from the fact a that society can be "spied"
by the State, while the State might make use of privacy rules in order to
prevent other entities, groups and individuals from doing just the same -
including and especially with respect to its officers' behaviours and
internal working.

So, I am more worried about the ability of existing legal systems to
repress initiatives such as Wikileaks than by any form of legal protection
of individual privacy.

After all, the fact of enjoying privacy and anonimity by default is a very
limited phenomenon in human history (say, urban life in western countries
during the XIX and XX centuries), where the norm is on the contrary that
both the chief *and* his subject know everything there is to know about the
otherm unless practical, extraordinary and at the end of the day often
futile,  measures are taken to hide something.

Think for instance to the developments outlined in Bob Shows' *Other Days,
Other Eyes*, and in its remake *The Light of Other Days* by Arthur C Clarke
and Stephen Baxter. Both novels show the extreme disruption that a
technology making privacy simply impossible would determine. But what
happens then? People and society simply adapt, and life goes on.

Ultimately, I do not care much about what people know about me. I care
about how much I am allowed to know about others, governments and
corporations in the first place.

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From lubkin at unreasonable.com  Sat Mar 24 14:54:07 2012
From: lubkin at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin)
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2012 10:54:07 -0400
Subject: [ExI] The NSA's new data center
In-Reply-To: <4F6DBFE3.9070109@aleph.se>
References: <201203172251.q2HMphhn024879@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <CAM5aL2dXQdi8Kdm+TkHPi6Rqzus0uB9c5xubvJB5rw544rd=0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a40aLY09gmJh8N59y08pWQ70V25ENaEdazTZRGmnumfSw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2fp77OtogSLfJ9s2wxKpuF1LnfS7yhfk8ZXnh2zUGrepA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a5F80+CXiinanZjTiBSKcWf7xNA3Vp_TuT0MLe2DsS=jw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4F6DBFE3.9070109@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <201203241454.q2OEsBKv014861@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

Anders wrote:

>I did a little calculation: at what point can governments spy 24/7 
>on their citizens and store all the data?
>
>I used the World Bank World Development Indicators and IMF 
>predictors for future GDP growth and the United nations median 
>population forecasts, the fit 10.^(-.2502*(t-1980)+6.304) for the 
>cost (in dollars)per gigabyte (found on various pages about Kryder's 
>law) and the assumption that 24/7 video surveillance would require 
>10 TB per person per year.

Your analysis is on governments, but surveillance can also be by business
or individuals. And given your figure of 10 TB/person/year, it's 
trivial already
to afford to store a Steve Mann-style video record of your entire life. (Some
will want this for their professional lives, or it may become a requirement
to be insured in a litigious profession.)

Or for a business to have an indefinite security camera archive of all
employees all day throughout all work spaces.

Or for a government to have a complete video record of a criminal's
incarceration. That is to say, to put an end to prison rape and other
extrajudicial consequences of prison.


-- David.



From eugen at leitl.org  Sat Mar 24 14:59:32 2012
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2012 15:59:32 +0100
Subject: [ExI] The NSA's new data center
In-Reply-To: <4F6DBFE3.9070109@aleph.se>
References: <201203172251.q2HMphhn024879@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <CAM5aL2dXQdi8Kdm+TkHPi6Rqzus0uB9c5xubvJB5rw544rd=0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a40aLY09gmJh8N59y08pWQ70V25ENaEdazTZRGmnumfSw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2fp77OtogSLfJ9s2wxKpuF1LnfS7yhfk8ZXnh2zUGrepA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a5F80+CXiinanZjTiBSKcWf7xNA3Vp_TuT0MLe2DsS=jw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4F6DBFE3.9070109@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <20120324145932.GH9891@leitl.org>

On Sat, Mar 24, 2012 at 12:36:51PM +0000, Anders Sandberg wrote:
> I did a little calculation: at what point can governments spy 24/7 on  
> their citizens and store all the data?

The time when we had the resources to track each individual person
go back at least a couple decades back. 

> I used the World Bank World Development Indicators and IMF predictors  
> for future GDP growth and the United nations median population  
> forecasts, the fit 10.^(-.2502*(t-1980)+6.304) for the cost (in  
> dollars)per gigabyte (found on various pages about Kryder's law) and the  
> assumption that 24/7 video surveillance would require 10 TB per person  
> per year.

There's no point in storing all video, or even audio. You would want
to build some 7*10^9 database slots and fill them up with those
data that are available, in the order of relative importance.
That would be ID numbers, addresses, frequent locations, maybe 
fingerprints and biometrics. Interactions between these would only 
involve IDs with time stams and location fixes.

Of course the slots of "persons of interests" (some 10^6 in the U.S.
alone) would be filled up a lot quicker, and *these* would have a
lot of information, including full location tracks and audio and 
perhaps video.

> Now, if we assume the total budget is 0.1% of the GDP and the storage is  
> just 10% of that (the rest is overhead, power, cooling, facilities etc),  
> then the conclusion is that doing this becomes feasible around 2020.  
> Bermuda, Luxenbourg and Norway can do it in 2018, by 2019 most of  
> Western Europe plus the US and Japan can do it. China gets there in  
> 2022. The last countries to reach this level are Eritrea and Liberia in  
> 2028, and finally Zimbabwe in 2031. By 2025 the US and China will be  
> able to monitor all of humanity if they want to/are allowed.

If you've read Bamford, you'll realize that this has become possible
somewhen in 1980s, and definitely in 1990s.

> So at least data storage is not going to be any problem. It would be  
> very interesting to get some estimates of the change in cost of  
> surveillance cameras and micro-drones, since presumably they are the  
> ones that are actually going to be the major hardware costs. Offset a  
> bit because we are helpfully adding surveillance capabilities to all our  
> must-have smartphones and smart cars. I suspect the hardware part will  
> delay introduction a bit in countries that want it, but that just mean  
> there will be hardware overhang once they get their smart dust, locators  
> or gnatbots.

You would not want to keep more of the hot data that you can cross-correlate.
I don't think you can can comfortably process more than some 10 EByte
in one facility, at current level of technology.

> Note that this kind of video archive is useful even if you don't have a  
> myriad analysts, perfect speech recognition or AI (in fact, it would be  
> a great incentive and training corpus for developing them). When you  
> figure out that somebody is doing or have just done something nasty, you  
> can easily backtrack and check on everybody they had been in touch with.  
> It would be quite easy to catch most members of any rebel network this  
> way as soon as it was recognized as a rebel network - and one could  
> easily create incentives for not associating with potential subversives  
> and/or reporting them, adding crowdsourced reporting. The only kind of  
> uprisnings with any kind of chance would be spontaneous eruptions.
>
> The more interesting (sinister) uses of this kind of intelligence corpus  
> is of course to do trials and experiments to see what predicts social  
> norm compliance and obedience. How well does various forms of nudging  
> work? What about the longitudinal loyalty effects of natural or  
> deliberate experiments? How well can you predict people from their  
> saccade patterns?

There's definitely pattern processing going on at least with the 
persons of interest cluster. Deviations *will* draw scrutiny.

> We might actually be living in a short window of opportunity right now.  
> The problem is not the surveillance per se, but the danger from  
> non-accountable uses of them once they are in place. Totalitarian  
> governments with this kind of transparency might prove extremely hard to  
> dislodge, and could become stable attractor states. This suggests that  
> we should work very hard on figuring out how to maintain government  
> accountability even when it has total surveillance powers, and how to  
> prevent open societies from sliding into the totalitarian trap. Given  
> that the tail statistics of big disasters is dominated by pandemics,  
> wars and democides we have very good reasons to view this as among the  
> top questions for human survival.

Every year or so I mention that we're on a trajectory to become something very 
like Vinge's Emergents. And once you're in that specific attractor, coming
back will be nigh-impossible.



From eugen at leitl.org  Sat Mar 24 15:05:22 2012
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2012 16:05:22 +0100
Subject: [ExI] The NSA's new data center
In-Reply-To: <201203241454.q2OEsBKv014861@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <201203172251.q2HMphhn024879@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <CAM5aL2dXQdi8Kdm+TkHPi6Rqzus0uB9c5xubvJB5rw544rd=0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a40aLY09gmJh8N59y08pWQ70V25ENaEdazTZRGmnumfSw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2fp77OtogSLfJ9s2wxKpuF1LnfS7yhfk8ZXnh2zUGrepA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a5F80+CXiinanZjTiBSKcWf7xNA3Vp_TuT0MLe2DsS=jw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4F6DBFE3.9070109@aleph.se>
 <201203241454.q2OEsBKv014861@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <20120324150522.GI9891@leitl.org>

On Sat, Mar 24, 2012 at 10:54:07AM -0400, David Lubkin wrote:

> Or for a government to have a complete video record of a criminal's
> incarceration. That is to say, to put an end to prison rape and other
> extrajudicial consequences of prison.

You're making it sound as these side effects weren't fully intended.

And of course there's a funny correlations with recording lacunes and
when people come to harm when LEOs are present. Or when the inmates
engage in some extrajudicial punishment as proxy.


From lubkin at unreasonable.com  Sat Mar 24 15:28:29 2012
From: lubkin at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin)
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2012 11:28:29 -0400
Subject: [ExI] The NSA's new data center
In-Reply-To: <20120324150522.GI9891@leitl.org>
References: <201203172251.q2HMphhn024879@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <CAM5aL2dXQdi8Kdm+TkHPi6Rqzus0uB9c5xubvJB5rw544rd=0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a40aLY09gmJh8N59y08pWQ70V25ENaEdazTZRGmnumfSw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2fp77OtogSLfJ9s2wxKpuF1LnfS7yhfk8ZXnh2zUGrepA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a5F80+CXiinanZjTiBSKcWf7xNA3Vp_TuT0MLe2DsS=jw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4F6DBFE3.9070109@aleph.se>
 <201203241454.q2OEsBKv014861@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <20120324150522.GI9891@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <201203241528.q2OFStlk023463@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

Eugen wrote:

>And of course there's a funny correlations with recording lacunes and
>when people come to harm when LEOs are present. Or when the inmates
>engage in some extrajudicial punishment as proxy.

I could envision that being taken by courts as rebuttable evidence of police
or custodial misconduct.

For inmates, I'd like mandatory live streaming to public web channels.

(A publicly available real-time stream of LEO is a problem, since their work
often depends on ne'er-do-wells being unaware of their location or presence.
That's already an issue, thanks to rubbernecking and press coverage.)


-- David.



From eugen at leitl.org  Sat Mar 24 15:46:27 2012
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2012 16:46:27 +0100
Subject: [ExI] The NSA's new data center
In-Reply-To: <201203241528.q2OFStlk023463@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <201203172251.q2HMphhn024879@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <CAM5aL2dXQdi8Kdm+TkHPi6Rqzus0uB9c5xubvJB5rw544rd=0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a40aLY09gmJh8N59y08pWQ70V25ENaEdazTZRGmnumfSw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2fp77OtogSLfJ9s2wxKpuF1LnfS7yhfk8ZXnh2zUGrepA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a5F80+CXiinanZjTiBSKcWf7xNA3Vp_TuT0MLe2DsS=jw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4F6DBFE3.9070109@aleph.se>
 <201203241454.q2OEsBKv014861@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <20120324150522.GI9891@leitl.org>
 <201203241528.q2OFStlk023463@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <20120324154627.GL9891@leitl.org>

On Sat, Mar 24, 2012 at 11:28:29AM -0400, David Lubkin wrote:

> I could envision that being taken by courts as rebuttable evidence of police
> or custodial misconduct.

Empirical evidence suggests that not to be the case. Always assuming
the matter lands before the judge, and the judge would be at all interested
(are you, a common criminal, actually bringing up charges against a cop?)
in digging in too deep, and find things which might bring trouble to him.

> For inmates, I'd like mandatory live streaming to public web channels.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panopticon

The Panopticon is a type of institutional building designed by English 
philosopher and social theorist Jeremy Bentham in the late eighteenth 
century. The concept of the design is to allow an observer to observe 
(-opticon) all (pan-) inmates of an institution without them being 
able to tell whether or not they are being watched.

The design consists of a circular structure with an "inspection house" 
at its centre, from which the managers or staff of the institution are 
able to watch the inmates, who are stationed around the perimeter. 
Bentham conceived the basic plan as being equally applicable to 
hospitals, schools, poorhouses, and madhouses, but he devoted most 
of his efforts to developing a design for a Panopticon prison, and 
it is his prison which is most widely understood by the term.

Bentham himself described the Panopticon as "a new mode of obtaining 
power of mind over mind, in a quantity hitherto without example."[1]

For some unfathomable reason this concept did never fly.

> (A publicly available real-time stream of LEO is a problem, since their work
> often depends on ne'er-do-wells being unaware of their location or presence.
> That's already an issue, thanks to rubbernecking and press coverage.)

Again, you're the hen in the henhouse asking the foxes in charge to
play fairly. I gather you never had direct experience with the seedy
underbelly of the judicial system?


From lubkin at unreasonable.com  Sat Mar 24 16:13:52 2012
From: lubkin at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin)
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2012 12:13:52 -0400
Subject: [ExI] The NSA's new data center
In-Reply-To: <20120324154627.GL9891@leitl.org>
References: <201203172251.q2HMphhn024879@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <CAM5aL2dXQdi8Kdm+TkHPi6Rqzus0uB9c5xubvJB5rw544rd=0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a40aLY09gmJh8N59y08pWQ70V25ENaEdazTZRGmnumfSw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2fp77OtogSLfJ9s2wxKpuF1LnfS7yhfk8ZXnh2zUGrepA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a5F80+CXiinanZjTiBSKcWf7xNA3Vp_TuT0MLe2DsS=jw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4F6DBFE3.9070109@aleph.se>
 <201203241454.q2OEsBKv014861@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <20120324150522.GI9891@leitl.org>
 <201203241528.q2OFStlk023463@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <20120324154627.GL9891@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <201203241613.q2OGDuc6013513@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

Eugen wrote:

> > I could envision that being taken by courts as rebuttable 
> evidence of police
> > or custodial misconduct.

>Empirical evidence suggests that not to be the case. Always assuming
>the matter lands before the judge, and the judge would be at all interested
>(are you, a common criminal, actually bringing up charges against a cop?)
>in digging in too deep, and find things which might bring trouble to him.

This is all still in its infancy. I don't expect a Supreme Court ruling
such as I'd envisioned for another fifteen years or so.

>Again, you're the hen in the henhouse asking the foxes in charge to
>play fairly. I gather you never had direct experience with the seedy
>underbelly of the judicial system?

I'm not expecting they'll go along with this willingly, much as they
weren't thrilled by Miranda v. Arizona and other developments
that constrain them. But reforms and protections have come about,
over decades and centuries.

The wavefront is now citizens' right to video, still, and audio record
their encounters with police or third-parties recording them. And
police aggressively attempting to stop this.

On the other hand, some police departments have police record all
their encounters with the public, for the sake of the officer and the
department.


-- David.



From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Sat Mar 24 16:28:20 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2012 17:28:20 +0100
Subject: [ExI] The NSA's new data center
In-Reply-To: <201203241613.q2OGDuc6013513@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <201203172251.q2HMphhn024879@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <CAM5aL2dXQdi8Kdm+TkHPi6Rqzus0uB9c5xubvJB5rw544rd=0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a40aLY09gmJh8N59y08pWQ70V25ENaEdazTZRGmnumfSw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2fp77OtogSLfJ9s2wxKpuF1LnfS7yhfk8ZXnh2zUGrepA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a5F80+CXiinanZjTiBSKcWf7xNA3Vp_TuT0MLe2DsS=jw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4F6DBFE3.9070109@aleph.se>
 <201203241454.q2OEsBKv014861@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <20120324150522.GI9891@leitl.org>
 <201203241528.q2OFStlk023463@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <20120324154627.GL9891@leitl.org>
 <201203241613.q2OGDuc6013513@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a4zAHiE-LZSqX4MZ7ZowN7gc5v4H-ATecs+dxFecosW7g@mail.gmail.com>

On 24 March 2012 17:13, David Lubkin <lubkin at unreasonable.com> wrote:

> The wavefront is now citizens' right to video, still, and audio record
> their encounters with police or third-parties recording them. And
> police aggressively attempting to stop this.
>
> On the other hand, some police departments have police record all
> their encounters with the public, for the sake of the officer and the
> department.
>

Yep, that's the point.

Only, you speak of "rights", I speak of practical empowerment.

Not just governments and enforcement agency, but *legal systems* are out
there trying to block/control/monopolise the collection, storage and
processing of personal information.

I simply predict that they will fail, and am just the merrier about that.
In the meantime, enormous resources, and some quality of life/efficiencies,
will be wasted in the effort.

--
Stefano Vaj
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From lubkin at unreasonable.com  Sat Mar 24 17:25:02 2012
From: lubkin at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin)
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2012 13:25:02 -0400
Subject: [ExI] The NSA's new data center
In-Reply-To: <CAPoR7a4zAHiE-LZSqX4MZ7ZowN7gc5v4H-ATecs+dxFecosW7g@mail.g
 mail.com>
References: <201203172251.q2HMphhn024879@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <CAM5aL2dXQdi8Kdm+TkHPi6Rqzus0uB9c5xubvJB5rw544rd=0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a40aLY09gmJh8N59y08pWQ70V25ENaEdazTZRGmnumfSw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2fp77OtogSLfJ9s2wxKpuF1LnfS7yhfk8ZXnh2zUGrepA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a5F80+CXiinanZjTiBSKcWf7xNA3Vp_TuT0MLe2DsS=jw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4F6DBFE3.9070109@aleph.se>
 <201203241454.q2OEsBKv014861@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <20120324150522.GI9891@leitl.org>
 <201203241528.q2OFStlk023463@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <20120324154627.GL9891@leitl.org>
 <201203241613.q2OGDuc6013513@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <CAPoR7a4zAHiE-LZSqX4MZ7ZowN7gc5v4H-ATecs+dxFecosW7g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <201203241725.q2OHP6Ve010600@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

Stefano wrote:

>Only, you speak of "rights", I speak of practical empowerment.

I think law, society, and technology are intertwined.

The progression is often technology, then society, then law.

Technology makes something possible, then superior to its
alternatives, then obviously so to the general society. When
enough individuals are persuaded, there's sufficient social
pressure for the laws to follow.

Friction occurs when they're mismatched or when people
attempt to shorten the process of change by decree.

We as extropians need to be attuned to this. For example,
as much as cryonicists want changes in law and practice
so that people can be suspended pre-mortem or avoid
autopsies, they aren't going to happen until opinions change,
which won't happen until technology is and is perceived to
be workable.

Although: talking about these topics -- in classrooms, in
popular entertainment, in blogs -- lays the foundation, and
motivates some to invent. So that's an additional leg to
pursue.

And sometimes it seems like one person can unleash an
avalanche. Suppose that Gmail adds strong encryption
of outbound mail, and it is enabled by default.


-- David.



From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Sat Mar 24 18:27:10 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2012 19:27:10 +0100
Subject: [ExI] The NSA's new data center
In-Reply-To: <201203241725.q2OHP6Ve010600@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <201203172251.q2HMphhn024879@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <CAM5aL2dXQdi8Kdm+TkHPi6Rqzus0uB9c5xubvJB5rw544rd=0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a40aLY09gmJh8N59y08pWQ70V25ENaEdazTZRGmnumfSw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2fp77OtogSLfJ9s2wxKpuF1LnfS7yhfk8ZXnh2zUGrepA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a5F80+CXiinanZjTiBSKcWf7xNA3Vp_TuT0MLe2DsS=jw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4F6DBFE3.9070109@aleph.se>
 <201203241454.q2OEsBKv014861@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <20120324150522.GI9891@leitl.org>
 <201203241528.q2OFStlk023463@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <20120324154627.GL9891@leitl.org>
 <201203241613.q2OGDuc6013513@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <CAPoR7a4zAHiE-LZSqX4MZ7ZowN7gc5v4H-ATecs+dxFecosW7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <201203241725.q2OHP6Ve010600@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a5fySWn0MZ8EDZDUgVgPXPLm1_G-G1o0uXOoTW0F3PdXQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 24 March 2012 18:25, David Lubkin <lubkin at unreasonable.com> wrote:

> Stefano wrote:
>
>  Only, you speak of "rights", I speak of practical empowerment.
>>
>
> I think law, society, and technology are intertwined.
>

Definitely, But hat I mean is: to have a right to what cannot be prevented
is as immaterial as having a right which cannot be enforced.

As a practising lawyer, I am made acutely aware of this truth by daily
experience.

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From atymes at gmail.com  Sat Mar 24 18:34:29 2012
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2012 11:34:29 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The NSA's new data center
In-Reply-To: <201203241725.q2OHP6Ve010600@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <201203172251.q2HMphhn024879@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <CAM5aL2dXQdi8Kdm+TkHPi6Rqzus0uB9c5xubvJB5rw544rd=0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a40aLY09gmJh8N59y08pWQ70V25ENaEdazTZRGmnumfSw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2fp77OtogSLfJ9s2wxKpuF1LnfS7yhfk8ZXnh2zUGrepA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a5F80+CXiinanZjTiBSKcWf7xNA3Vp_TuT0MLe2DsS=jw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4F6DBFE3.9070109@aleph.se>
 <201203241454.q2OEsBKv014861@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <20120324150522.GI9891@leitl.org>
 <201203241528.q2OFStlk023463@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <20120324154627.GL9891@leitl.org>
 <201203241613.q2OGDuc6013513@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <CAPoR7a4zAHiE-LZSqX4MZ7ZowN7gc5v4H-ATecs+dxFecosW7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <201203241725.q2OHP6Ve010600@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNQggXL-R64g64mwLKGeZgXw=Rjfo0dUYBP-iHggBUoREA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Mar 24, 2012 at 7:54 AM, David Lubkin <lubkin at unreasonable.com> wrote:
> Your analysis is on governments, but surveillance can also be by business
> or individuals. And given your figure of 10 TB/person/year, it's trivial
> already
...
> Or for a government to have a complete video record of a criminal's
> incarceration. That is to say, to put an end to prison rape and other
> extrajudicial consequences of prison.

Suggest this to any actual prison warden, and they'll point out there's
no way they'd have the budget for that.

Some of this can be argued as priorities - money goes to things that
are important.  But if it really was that cheap to do complete
surveillance, this wouldn't be enough to rule it out.

Conclusion: it is not, in fact, that cheap to do complete surveillance,
likely due either to costs not accounted for or the assumption of
more capital than is in fact available.

(0.1% of a large government's budget is a significant cost, that
those who make the budget will argue about.  0.0001% is closer to
pocket

On Sat, Mar 24, 2012 at 10:25 AM, David Lubkin <lubkin at unreasonable.com> wrote:
> And sometimes it seems like one person can unleash an
> avalanche. Suppose that Gmail adds strong encryption
> of outbound mail, and it is enabled by default.

It'd be instantly incompatible with the majority of external mail
servers, and thus "broken".  It would be deactivated immediately.

But adding strong encryption to inbound mail, or even just to
messages between mail domains under GMail's control, is another
story.  GMail serves a number of businesses these days, in
addition to personal email.


From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Sat Mar 24 20:33:51 2012
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2012 13:33:51 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Power sats and those who want most of us to die.
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB4u0LfW6uZUfaa=T8py2tk6oZbxH-tahhtRQDaR6nzsUw@mail.gmail.com>

http://www.theoildrum.com/node/9046

http://physics.ucsd.edu/do-the-math/2012/03/space-based-solar-power/#comment-5115


From eugen at leitl.org  Sat Mar 24 21:13:28 2012
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2012 22:13:28 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Power sats and those who want most of us to die.
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB4u0LfW6uZUfaa=T8py2tk6oZbxH-tahhtRQDaR6nzsUw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB4u0LfW6uZUfaa=T8py2tk6oZbxH-tahhtRQDaR6nzsUw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120324211328.GB9891@leitl.org>

On Sat, Mar 24, 2012 at 01:33:51PM -0700, Keith Henson wrote:
> http://www.theoildrum.com/node/9046
> 
> http://physics.ucsd.edu/do-the-math/2012/03/space-based-solar-power/#comment-5115

Thought I posted that in full text a while ago. Did it not make it to the list?


From pharos at gmail.com  Sat Mar 24 22:26:19 2012
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2012 22:26:19 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Power sats and those who want most of us to die.
In-Reply-To: <20120324211328.GB9891@leitl.org>
References: <CAPiwVB4u0LfW6uZUfaa=T8py2tk6oZbxH-tahhtRQDaR6nzsUw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120324211328.GB9891@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <CAL_armgRFUqOmYdVm-og626z3cU2bykM0=uyUVSWz7v-FpoVBQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Mar 24, 2012 at 9:13 PM, Eugen Leitl wrote:
> On Sat, Mar 24, 2012 at 01:33:51PM -0700, Keith Henson wrote:
>> http://www.theoildrum.com/node/9046
>>
>> http://physics.ucsd.edu/do-the-math/2012/03/space-based-solar-power/#comment-5115
>
> Thought I posted that in full text a while ago. Did it not make it to the list?
>


I think it did.   But it was over the 140 character attention span limit.


BillK


From kellycoinguy at gmail.com  Sun Mar 25 02:34:19 2012
From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2012 20:34:19 -0600
Subject: [ExI] bees again
In-Reply-To: <002601cd0921$75b3f0b0$611bd210$@att.net>
References: <000f01cd0874$1dfa1690$59ee43b0$@att.net>
 <CAPoR7a7uzgGZM3GWEpB_fSJZDepMGQgxPnuOFAO+acXYoEmanw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2cigJaXOvWFDAz7PkKzs-EJLKJtp+AT2seWowOwMLOtEQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <002601cd0921$75b3f0b0$611bd210$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAPy8RwZVaGpzeQ+v0cKOfsdE9cJseJcqfJs1mUeyh0rLhBXoJQ@mail.gmail.com>

2012/3/23 spike <spike66 at att.net>:
> Perhaps not, but I can calmly assure you, I wouldn?t touch the stuff,
> wouldn?t even put it on someone else?s food.? If you were to see firsthand
> how actual honey is extracted, the facility, the entire process, you would?
> well, suffice it to say a honey extraction facility is the vegetarian?s
> equivalent of a slaughterhouse.

> You have heard me go on about how our digestive systems can handle bugs,
> ja?? How do I know?? Well, I know that if the bugs are crushed and their,
> um? whatever is inside a bug gets into honey from the centrifugal extractor,
> it doesn?t seem to harm anyone, ja?? Have you ever heard of anyone getting
> sick from honey?? I haven?t.? So bug guts won?t hurt you a bit.? If you are
> the squicky type and like honey, I advise you not ask too many questions.
> {8^D

Spike, weren't you the one suggesting we eat more insects the other
day? Seems like this is just what you were asking for... LOL

-Kelly



From kellycoinguy at gmail.com  Sun Mar 25 02:28:05 2012
From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2012 20:28:05 -0600
Subject: [ExI] The NSA's new data center
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNQggXL-R64g64mwLKGeZgXw=Rjfo0dUYBP-iHggBUoREA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <201203172251.q2HMphhn024879@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <CAM5aL2dXQdi8Kdm+TkHPi6Rqzus0uB9c5xubvJB5rw544rd=0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a40aLY09gmJh8N59y08pWQ70V25ENaEdazTZRGmnumfSw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2fp77OtogSLfJ9s2wxKpuF1LnfS7yhfk8ZXnh2zUGrepA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a5F80+CXiinanZjTiBSKcWf7xNA3Vp_TuT0MLe2DsS=jw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4F6DBFE3.9070109@aleph.se>
 <201203241454.q2OEsBKv014861@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <20120324150522.GI9891@leitl.org>
 <201203241528.q2OFStlk023463@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <20120324154627.GL9891@leitl.org>
 <201203241613.q2OGDuc6013513@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <CAPoR7a4zAHiE-LZSqX4MZ7ZowN7gc5v4H-ATecs+dxFecosW7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <201203241725.q2OHP6Ve010600@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <CALAdGNQggXL-R64g64mwLKGeZgXw=Rjfo0dUYBP-iHggBUoREA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPy8RwbtAVMNzqONE--hXciR7AAX3URP_pesFXHBRV5wc8uvWg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Mar 24, 2012 at 12:34 PM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, Mar 24, 2012 at 7:54 AM, David Lubkin <lubkin at unreasonable.com> wrote:
>> Or for a government to have a complete video record of a criminal's
>> incarceration. That is to say, to put an end to prison rape and other
>> extrajudicial consequences of prison.
>
> Suggest this to any actual prison warden, and they'll point out there's
> no way they'd have the budget for that.

However, video cameras and storage follow Moore's Law, and eventually
it will be so cheap that nobody can justify not doing it on a
financial basis.

This new data center is less than ten miles from my house. I had heard
only the lightest whispers of such a thing going in. There are a lot
of construction activities in the area right now, so it's not hard to
believe that it got lost in the noise.

-Kelly


From kellycoinguy at gmail.com  Sun Mar 25 02:55:41 2012
From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2012 20:55:41 -0600
Subject: [ExI] 5th Grade Science Fair -- Evolution
Message-ID: <CAPy8RwacbOK+NMwErk9xLKWK=LjJMJfePfPd_SKUN728o7-oYg@mail.gmail.com>

Friday, I went to my son's 5th grade science fair. It was really a lot
of fun watching these young kids get excited about experimentation. My
son was chosen to progress to the district (no surprise there, we have
been working hard on our experiment) and is very excited by the
prospect.

So, here was his experiment (OK, I helped some)

We got a bunch of wingless fruit flies. The control group just spend
their life in a plastic container with food. The experimental group is
introduced into a terrarium with a tree frog. After 24 hours, the
survivors were picked out of the terrarium, and bred in a new
generation. The process is repeated until there are enough flies to
create a new generation. Repeat.

The hypothesis was that there would be some differences in the group
exposed to the natural selection of the terrarium habitat and frog. We
did not hypothesize what the differences might be, we just hoped we
would be able to notice.

I expected that we would have to break out some pretty heavy duty
statistical math to determine if we had results worth writing home
about because evolution is supposed to be slow. Well, we were
certainly wrong about that.

We spent a lot of time observing the flies. Interesting little
creatures, much more entertaining than the frogs. The fruit flies have
this habit of always disbursing from each other rapidly, as well as
climbing up the sides of the little cups they are kept in. Kasey
noticed that the first generation survivors seemed to go faster than
the control group. So we set up a video race, raced the two groups a
couple of times, analyzed the video, and indeed, the first generation
was moving at approximately 1.4 times the speed of the control group.
The second generation went 3.7 times as fast on average. Now this
isn't to say that the individual flies are all that much faster, but
the ones that sat on their butts at the bottom of the cup seem to have
not survived very well (go figure).

We were astounded that the results were so pronounced. Perhaps my math
is wrong. Kasey is going to double check my figures, but they are
noticeably much faster just looking at them.

Evolution is fun. And by no means is the selection part necessarily
slow. It only took about two and a half months to get our results.
Most of that time was spent allowing the few survivors to reproduce up
to suitable numbers for testing and generating the second generation.

This has been a heck of a lot of fun. The only down side is that I've
discovered the life expectancy of these particular frogs is over a
decade! And they grow to about 4 inches long. Don't know if I can
produce enough fruit flies for frogs that size!! :-)

Compared to the average 5th grade project, this is quite involved. I
think he'll go far in the competition. We will have to see.

-Kelly


From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 25 05:39:41 2012
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2012 22:39:41 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] The NSA's new data center
References: <201203172251.q2HMphhn024879@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <CAM5aL2dXQdi8Kdm+TkHPi6Rqzus0uB9c5xubvJB5rw544rd=0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a40aLY09gmJh8N59y08pWQ70V25ENaEdazTZRGmnumfSw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2fp77OtogSLfJ9s2wxKpuF1LnfS7yhfk8ZXnh2zUGrepA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a5F80+CXiinanZjTiBSKcWf7xNA3Vp_TuT0MLe2DsS=jw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4F6DBFE3.9070109@aleph.se> 
Message-ID: <1332653981.97792.YahooMailNeo@web164506.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

----- Original Message -----
> From: Anders Sandberg <anders at aleph.se>
> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Cc: 
> Sent: Saturday, March 24, 2012 5:36 AM
> Subject: Re: [ExI] The NSA's new data center
> 
> I did a little calculation: at what point can governments spy 24/7 on their 
> citizens and store all the data?

[...]
?
> We might actually be living in a short window of opportunity right now. The 
> problem is not the surveillance per se, but the danger from non-accountable uses 
> of them once they are in place. Totalitarian governments with this kind of 
> transparency might prove extremely hard to dislodge, and could become stable 
> attractor states. This suggests that we should work very hard on figuring out 
> how to maintain government accountability even when it has total surveillance 
> powers, and how to prevent open societies from sliding into the totalitarian 
> trap. Given that the tail statistics of big disasters is dominated by pandemics, 
> wars and democides we have very good reasons to view this as among the top 
> questions for human survival.

Excellent analysis, Anders. You are?absolutely right.?This generation, the generation that remembers and misses its privacy is the?axis upon which this whole issue will swing.?For the?succeeding generations?whose privacy seems so unlikely at this nexus, having never experienced privacy,?they will not be able to assign it any?moral or aesthetic value. They might even consider being "alone", "different",?or "independent" wrong and tantamount to death. Like a worker ant?separated from its sisters.
?
I have already warned you how?protean "human values" are so?If this is not what you want for your children, then the?responsibility to avert that outcome rests squarely on?THIS generation's shoulders.?Because if you lose your privacy to the government, the next generation won't have clue what you are babbling about.

?
Stuart LaForge

"The state that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards, and its fighting by fools." -Thucydides.




From spike66 at att.net  Sun Mar 25 05:50:19 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2012 22:50:19 -0700
Subject: [ExI] 5th Grade Science Fair -- Evolution
In-Reply-To: <CAPy8RwacbOK+NMwErk9xLKWK=LjJMJfePfPd_SKUN728o7-oYg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPy8RwacbOK+NMwErk9xLKWK=LjJMJfePfPd_SKUN728o7-oYg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00e401cd0a4b$29a77e00$7cf67a00$@att.net>


>... On Behalf Of Kelly Anderson
Subject: [ExI] 5th Grade Science Fair -- Evolution

>...Friday, I went to my son's 5th grade science fair. It was really a lot
of fun watching these young kids get excited about experimentation. My son
was chosen to progress to the district (no surprise there, we have been
working hard on our experiment) and is very excited by the prospect...-Kelly
_______________________________________________

Since Kelly talks about his son's science fair, I get to talk about mine.

My son did a project on measuring the power from a solar panel we use to
keep the batteries topped up on our camper.  The ad says it produces five
watts peak, so we took him out with a digital meter, had him measure open
loop voltage and short circuit current, then multiply those two to get
power.  He got a little less than four watts peak in every case, under ideal
conditions.

He was the only kindergartner there, so we were not going to have him pitch.
He had decided he didn't want to, when we got to the regional and there were
about 600 or so people there.  So he and I went and listened to the pitches.
He saw one kid after another pitch their projects, and several were doing
something wrong, such as holding the mic too far from their mouth so we
couldn't hear a word.  Others were facing away from the audience.  Others
wandered off on some trivial detail.

After watching a dozen of these, my son turned to me and said he wanted to
pitch, so I signed up him.  He stood tall up there, held the mic right up to
his mouth and spoke in clear, distinct, grammatically correct sentences,
explained how he measured open voltage, short current, multiplied to get
power, and found his panel came up a watt short.  He stayed right on topic,
didn't wander, got right to the point, got off the stage.  Of course my
father-figure buttons nearly off popped.  That's what my son calls me,
father figure.  Heh, what a kid.

I hope he becomes a science fair champion.

spike



From brent.allsop at canonizer.com  Sun Mar 25 06:15:29 2012
From: brent.allsop at canonizer.com (Brent Allsop)
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2012 00:15:29 -0600
Subject: [ExI] 5th Grade Science Fair -- Evolution
In-Reply-To: <00e401cd0a4b$29a77e00$7cf67a00$@att.net>
References: <CAPy8RwacbOK+NMwErk9xLKWK=LjJMJfePfPd_SKUN728o7-oYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <00e401cd0a4b$29a77e00$7cf67a00$@att.net>
Message-ID: <4F6EB801.9080006@canonizer.com>


AHHHH!!!  Family talk!!

That's what I so love about the MTA, that seems to be so missing from 
most other ExI and Transhumanist forums.

Thanks!!  What great stories!!

Brent Allsop



On 3/24/2012 11:50 PM, spike wrote:
>> ... On Behalf Of Kelly Anderson
> Subject: [ExI] 5th Grade Science Fair -- Evolution
>
>> ...Friday, I went to my son's 5th grade science fair. It was really a lot
> of fun watching these young kids get excited about experimentation. My son
> was chosen to progress to the district (no surprise there, we have been
> working hard on our experiment) and is very excited by the prospect...-Kelly
> _______________________________________________
>
> Since Kelly talks about his son's science fair, I get to talk about mine.
>
> My son did a project on measuring the power from a solar panel we use to
> keep the batteries topped up on our camper.  The ad says it produces five
> watts peak, so we took him out with a digital meter, had him measure open
> loop voltage and short circuit current, then multiply those two to get
> power.  He got a little less than four watts peak in every case, under ideal
> conditions.
>
> He was the only kindergartner there, so we were not going to have him pitch.
> He had decided he didn't want to, when we got to the regional and there were
> about 600 or so people there.  So he and I went and listened to the pitches.
> He saw one kid after another pitch their projects, and several were doing
> something wrong, such as holding the mic too far from their mouth so we
> couldn't hear a word.  Others were facing away from the audience.  Others
> wandered off on some trivial detail.
>
> After watching a dozen of these, my son turned to me and said he wanted to
> pitch, so I signed up him.  He stood tall up there, held the mic right up to
> his mouth and spoke in clear, distinct, grammatically correct sentences,
> explained how he measured open voltage, short current, multiplied to get
> power, and found his panel came up a watt short.  He stayed right on topic,
> didn't wander, got right to the point, got off the stage.  Of course my
> father-figure buttons nearly off popped.  That's what my son calls me,
> father figure.  Heh, what a kid.
>
> I hope he becomes a science fair champion.
>
> spike
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>



From pharos at gmail.com  Sun Mar 25 08:01:37 2012
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2012 09:01:37 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Will robot cars be TOO good?
Message-ID: <CAL_armjn1TOSY49uCFiWwhzrLcpkN+i1P1uqPoBg975jBkOQPg@mail.gmail.com>

Robot Car Intersections Are Terrifyingly Efficient
<http://spectrum.ieee.org/automaton/robotics/artificial-intelligence/robot-car-intersections-are-terrifyingly-efficient>

Quote:
Last time we put our life in the hands of a robot car, it managed to
park itself without crashing or abducting us. Robot cars also know how
to drive like maniacs, and even how to powerslide. These are all very
neat tricks -- tricks that might save your life one day. But what's
going to happen when all cars are this talented? Efficiency. Scary,
scary efficiency.

It's not just the sensor-driven skills that will soon be common to
individual cars that will shape the future of automotive
transportation, but also the ability for cars to communicate with each
other, sharing constant updates about exactly where they are and where
they're going. And with enough detailed information being shared at a
fast enough pace between all vehicles on the road, things like traffic
lights become completely redundant:
Watch video demo.
--------------


Robot cars may have to have the windows blacked out to stop the
passengers screaming for them to 'SLOW DOWN!'.


BillK


From eugen at leitl.org  Sun Mar 25 09:05:53 2012
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2012 11:05:53 +0200
Subject: [ExI] The NSA's new data center
In-Reply-To: <CAPy8RwbtAVMNzqONE--hXciR7AAX3URP_pesFXHBRV5wc8uvWg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4F6DBFE3.9070109@aleph.se>
 <201203241454.q2OEsBKv014861@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <20120324150522.GI9891@leitl.org>
 <201203241528.q2OFStlk023463@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <20120324154627.GL9891@leitl.org>
 <201203241613.q2OGDuc6013513@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <CAPoR7a4zAHiE-LZSqX4MZ7ZowN7gc5v4H-ATecs+dxFecosW7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <201203241725.q2OHP6Ve010600@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <CALAdGNQggXL-R64g64mwLKGeZgXw=Rjfo0dUYBP-iHggBUoREA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPy8RwbtAVMNzqONE--hXciR7AAX3URP_pesFXHBRV5wc8uvWg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120325090553.GI9891@leitl.org>

On Sat, Mar 24, 2012 at 08:28:05PM -0600, Kelly Anderson wrote:

> However, video cameras and storage follow Moore's Law, and eventually
> it will be so cheap that nobody can justify not doing it on a
> financial basis.

So you'll get seamless coverage of the back room deals in Washington?
I'm sure only Moore prevents us from being there. I'm sure the board
meetings won't mind a few perching quadcopters in there, either.
Transparency is good, after all. 
 
> This new data center is less than ten miles from my house. I had heard
> only the lightest whispers of such a thing going in. There are a lot
> of construction activities in the area right now, so it's not hard to
> believe that it got lost in the noise.

I wonder why they let Bamford get away with it year after year.
I understand he has some fans in the agency, and since he's not
getting any info on the really juicy stuff keeping the agency
in the press makes sense. It's hard to justify your budget if 
you're not there.


From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Sun Mar 25 13:46:19 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2012 15:46:19 +0200
Subject: [ExI] The NSA's new data center
In-Reply-To: <CAPy8RwbtAVMNzqONE--hXciR7AAX3URP_pesFXHBRV5wc8uvWg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <201203172251.q2HMphhn024879@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <CAM5aL2dXQdi8Kdm+TkHPi6Rqzus0uB9c5xubvJB5rw544rd=0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a40aLY09gmJh8N59y08pWQ70V25ENaEdazTZRGmnumfSw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2fp77OtogSLfJ9s2wxKpuF1LnfS7yhfk8ZXnh2zUGrepA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a5F80+CXiinanZjTiBSKcWf7xNA3Vp_TuT0MLe2DsS=jw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4F6DBFE3.9070109@aleph.se>
 <201203241454.q2OEsBKv014861@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <20120324150522.GI9891@leitl.org>
 <201203241528.q2OFStlk023463@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <20120324154627.GL9891@leitl.org>
 <201203241613.q2OGDuc6013513@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <CAPoR7a4zAHiE-LZSqX4MZ7ZowN7gc5v4H-ATecs+dxFecosW7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <201203241725.q2OHP6Ve010600@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <CALAdGNQggXL-R64g64mwLKGeZgXw=Rjfo0dUYBP-iHggBUoREA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPy8RwbtAVMNzqONE--hXciR7AAX3URP_pesFXHBRV5wc8uvWg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a6=FVPgxLK5Lk=+T_QBYvueAt29rTYqnsaU2isyim+sVg@mail.gmail.com>

On 25 March 2012 04:28, Kelly Anderson <kellycoinguy at gmail.com> wrote:

> However, video cameras and storage follow Moore's Law, and eventually
> it will be so cheap that nobody can justify not doing it on a
> financial basis.
>

My prediction, and sincere (albeit somewhat "tragic") hope, is that at the
end of the day they will be so cheap, small, powerful and widespread that
nobody can prevent their generalised use *no matter what the justification
for doing that might be*.

Heck, law enforcement is a failure enough today in controlling the moving
and using of *tons* of marijuana... :-)

So: both good and bad secrecy/privacy are likely IMHO to go down the drain,
and we had better be prepared to that.

There again, the scenario of *Other Days, Other Eye*s, and of *The Light of
Other Days* comes to mind.

-- 
Stefano Vaj

<http://int.ask.com/web?siteid=10000861&webqsrc=999&l=dis&q=Other%20Days,%20Other%20Eye>
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From spike66 at att.net  Sun Mar 25 15:10:58 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2012 08:10:58 -0700
Subject: [ExI] 5th Grade Science Fair -- Evolution
In-Reply-To: <4F6EB801.9080006@canonizer.com>
References: <CAPy8RwacbOK+NMwErk9xLKWK=LjJMJfePfPd_SKUN728o7-oYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <00e401cd0a4b$29a77e00$7cf67a00$@att.net> <4F6EB801.9080006@canonizer.com>
Message-ID: <011b01cd0a99$7bf43b50$73dcb1f0$@att.net>


>... On Behalf Of Brent Allsop
>...Subject: Re: [ExI] 5th Grade Science Fair -- Evolution


>...AHHHH!!!  Family talk!!

>...That's what I so love about the MTA, that seems to be so missing from
most other ExI and Transhumanist forums.

>...Thanks!!  What great stories!!  Brent Allsop


...


In all our soaring cerebral oratory, which I so value here, we may
occasionally remind ourselves that right in the middle of the word
transhumanist is the word human.  Even more central in the word
transhumanist is the word hum, which is what we humans do when happy or
pleased, still more central is the letter u, which is used more and more  in
this 140 character world to mean you.  So the within the word transhumanist
is the cheerful exhortation: hum a happy tune, you human transhumanist.

spike 



From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Sun Mar 25 16:28:59 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2012 18:28:59 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Record-breaking laser pulse boosts fusion power hopes
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a7Bdy3Dm9sM+u9aNtJwJo_ijfJEjdi5C57drf=Ogd349Q@mail.gmail.com>

Hey, I like my tokamaks like the next guy, but...

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/03/23/nif_laser_pulse/
-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From gsantostasi at gmail.com  Sun Mar 25 17:22:27 2012
From: gsantostasi at gmail.com (Giovanni Santostasi)
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2012 12:22:27 -0500
Subject: [ExI] 5th Grade Science Fair -- Evolution
In-Reply-To: <011b01cd0a99$7bf43b50$73dcb1f0$@att.net>
References: <CAPy8RwacbOK+NMwErk9xLKWK=LjJMJfePfPd_SKUN728o7-oYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <00e401cd0a4b$29a77e00$7cf67a00$@att.net>
 <4F6EB801.9080006@canonizer.com>
 <011b01cd0a99$7bf43b50$73dcb1f0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAL+RtPfzvwU1KFTznmfGMuXMKZ8iq9CjcLTT9yRGKtrhcMts0A@mail.gmail.com>

Do you buy the flies from a biological supplier?
Which one? Would be interesting to see a graph of average speed as a
function of generation number. How many generations you got so far? Could
you get the speed of individual flies (if not all, at least a good
sample?). It would be interesting to see the distribution of the individual
flies speeds to see if there is a change in distribution. Another thing to
be careful about is when you take the speeds, try to do it at the same time
of the day and under same light conditions, because circadian rhythms could
affect the speed. That could be an interesting follow up of your study
(maybe for next year project). How the flies in each generation change
their rhythms, do they become more synchronized with the from biological
rhythms? Make sure to keep similar light-dark cycles conditions during the
experiment.
Giovanni


On Sun, Mar 25, 2012 at 10:10 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

>
> >... On Behalf Of Brent Allsop
> >...Subject: Re: [ExI] 5th Grade Science Fair -- Evolution
>
>
> >...AHHHH!!!  Family talk!!
>
> >...That's what I so love about the MTA, that seems to be so missing from
> most other ExI and Transhumanist forums.
>
> >...Thanks!!  What great stories!!  Brent Allsop
>
>
> ...
>
>
> In all our soaring cerebral oratory, which I so value here, we may
> occasionally remind ourselves that right in the middle of the word
> transhumanist is the word human.  Even more central in the word
> transhumanist is the word hum, which is what we humans do when happy or
> pleased, still more central is the letter u, which is used more and more
>  in
> this 140 character world to mean you.  So the within the word transhumanist
> is the cheerful exhortation: hum a happy tune, you human transhumanist.
>
> spike
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike66 at att.net  Sun Mar 25 17:43:43 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2012 10:43:43 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Will robot cars be TOO good?
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armjn1TOSY49uCFiWwhzrLcpkN+i1P1uqPoBg975jBkOQPg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armjn1TOSY49uCFiWwhzrLcpkN+i1P1uqPoBg975jBkOQPg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <002001cd0aae$d299bb50$77cd31f0$@att.net>

>... On Behalf Of BillK
Subject: [ExI] Will robot cars be TOO good?

>...Robot Car Intersections Are Terrifyingly Efficient
<http://spectrum.ieee.org/automaton/robotics/artificial-intelligence/robot-c
ar-intersections-are-terrifyingly-efficient>  ... --------------

>...Robot cars may have to have the windows blacked out to stop the
passengers screaming for them to 'SLOW DOWN!'.  BillK
_______________________________________________

BillK this is another one of those mixtures of dream and nightmare
unfortunately.  If cars could control the brakes, steering and accelerators,
they could navigate crowded cities waaaay better than humans, because they
can operate with much closer tolerances than the general human comfort zone.
Imagine a city intersection where cars zip through at half freeway speeds
and miss each other by an arm span.  Every time we did that, we would feel
like we just survived a near death experience, but the machines wouldn't be
a bit worried by it, not a bit.  Everything that happened there would be
well within their capability to react.

Then we can imagine a situations where humans may not participate, since
they would endanger the computer driven cars by our bad habit of
out-freaking.

Imagine resurrecting a person from the horse and buggy days, and taking her
down any modern freeway at freeway speeds.  She would be terrified.  My own
grandmother-in-law from Idaho used to freak out in ordinary San Jose freeway
traffic as late as the 1990s, from the speed and closeness of the cars.

Actually that sounds like a thrilling scary fun roller coaster ride to get
into computer driven cars and tear through a crowded city, but I want others
to demonstrate it before I get in.  {8^D

spike




From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Sun Mar 25 18:15:53 2012
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2012 11:15:53 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Power sats and those who want most of us to die.
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB4xAOutYfiDrF6EofQLE2o3FVei7CCc7E+Mz86nY4h2Ug@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Mar 25, 2012 at 1:01 AM,
<extropy-chat-request at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Sat, Mar 24, 2012 at 01:33:51PM -0700, Keith Henson wrote:
>> http://www.theoildrum.com/node/9046
>>
>> http://physics.ucsd.edu/do-the-math/2012/03/space-based-solar-power/#comment-5115
>
> Thought I posted that in full text a while ago. Did it not make it to the list?

You did.  There have been a couple of hundred comments on each blog since.

Keith


From jrd1415 at gmail.com  Sun Mar 25 17:30:26 2012
From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis)
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2012 10:30:26 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Will robot cars be TOO good?
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armjn1TOSY49uCFiWwhzrLcpkN+i1P1uqPoBg975jBkOQPg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armjn1TOSY49uCFiWwhzrLcpkN+i1P1uqPoBg975jBkOQPg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHUTwkPnyAaEF87SW6GvFph0Nxe5jhG3TgNFqYxNnedvdo+vbw@mail.gmail.com>

Friends,

I've been thinking about this for quite some time now.  As a
consequence I have had a series of epiphanies.

First, maybe as much as ten years ago, I foresaw the advent of the
smart phone, but because the term "phone" is legacy terminology from
the era when a phone was just a phone, I disposed of it and referred
to my gadget as a "net link".

Unaware and unconcerned of other possible "apps", my interest was
focused on a cooperative transportation system -- basically
computerized car pooling.  Lots of folks and their cars on the system,
and when you want to go somewhere, you tell the system where you want
to go and when you want to get there, and if you're not taking your
own vehicle, then the system finds the car for you -- the nearest one
going, in a timely manner nearest your destination -- and directs that
vehicle to stop and pick you up.

Okay, so far so good.

Accompanying this thought stream was the legacy concept called the
"smart road".  You understand: the roadway all wired up and sensored
up and computerized and "smartly" directing the traffic flow.  But
then I realized something.  Something at the time rather striking: the
smart road was unnecessary. (You may disagree -- I almost hope you
will -- and point out some factor which only the smart road can
provide, thus showing it to be necessary.  Please, help out in that
manner.)

The smart road is unnecessary because the smart car can do everything
the smart road can do.  The "smart road" functionality can be in the
cars rather than the road.  The smart road is redundant.  All the
smart cars with **their** sensors and networked dynamic database
become the smart road.

And then another epiphany, which brings me to where I am today.  With
the exception of the sensors, the smart car too, is unnecessary.  The
once "smart car" is now just a big dumb sensor platform,.....because
the smartness of the system resides not in the car but entirely in the
larger data base to which one's personal "net link, with it's
dedicated local smartness -- or as we now know it: smart phone -- is
networked.

Your smart phone would of course be linked wirelessly to your
now-not-quite-so-smart car(not to mention everything else).

At which point, the "everything else" progression leads inevitably to
a somewhat annoying "Well, duh!" moment.  "It's the "smart world",
stupid!!!"

Smart house, smart car, smart world, smart life, all of it arising
from the organizational capabilities of the collective distributed
applications and database of global, shared, non-private data.

That was fun!  Boy do I ever love technology.

Best, Jeff Davis

    "Everything's hard till you know how to do it."
                              Ray Charles







On Sun, Mar 25, 2012 at 1:01 AM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:
> Robot Car Intersections Are Terrifyingly Efficient
> <http://spectrum.ieee.org/automaton/robotics/artificial-intelligence/robot-car-intersections-are-terrifyingly-efficient>
>
> Quote:
> Last time we put our life in the hands of a robot car, it managed to
> park itself without crashing or abducting us. Robot cars also know how
> to drive like maniacs, and even how to powerslide. These are all very
> neat tricks -- tricks that might save your life one day. But what's
> going to happen when all cars are this talented? Efficiency. Scary,
> scary efficiency.
>
> It's not just the sensor-driven skills that will soon be common to
> individual cars that will shape the future of automotive
> transportation, but also the ability for cars to communicate with each
> other, sharing constant updates about exactly where they are and where
> they're going. And with enough detailed information being shared at a
> fast enough pace between all vehicles on the road, things like traffic
> lights become completely redundant:
> Watch video demo.
> --------------
>
>
> Robot cars may have to have the windows blacked out to stop the
> passengers screaming for them to 'SLOW DOWN!'.
>
>
> BillK
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From gsantostasi at gmail.com  Sun Mar 25 18:39:28 2012
From: gsantostasi at gmail.com (Giovanni Santostasi)
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2012 13:39:28 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Reason rally media coverage
Message-ID: <CAL+RtPdj-J4jyTtGt+OJ=gvonOFbG2Fx1EkBASphk=1rcxNWng@mail.gmail.com>

Have you followed or participated in person to the Reason Rally? What do
you think of the media coverage of this event? Is the media doing a good
job in representing the views and letting people know about it?
Giovanni
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From spike66 at att.net  Sun Mar 25 18:37:49 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2012 11:37:49 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Will robot cars be TOO good?
In-Reply-To: <002001cd0aae$d299bb50$77cd31f0$@att.net>
References: <CAL_armjn1TOSY49uCFiWwhzrLcpkN+i1P1uqPoBg975jBkOQPg@mail.gmail.com>
 <002001cd0aae$d299bb50$77cd31f0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <002a01cd0ab6$61925cc0$24b71640$@att.net>

>...Robot Car Intersections Are Terrifyingly Efficient
<http://spectrum.ieee.org/automaton/robotics/artificial-intelligence/robot-c
ar-intersections-are-terrifyingly-efficient>  ... --------------

>>...Robot cars may have to have the windows blacked out to stop the
passengers screaming for them to 'SLOW DOWN!'.  BillK
_______________________________________________

>...BillK this is another one of those mixtures of dream and nightmare...
that sounds like a thrilling scary fun roller coaster ride to get into
computer driven cars and tear through a crowded city, but I want others to
demonstrate it before I get in.  {8^D  spike


_______________________________________________

To make this work in the densest part of the city, we would need to move all
pedestrian and bicycle traffic above the street level.  The cars would need
to communicate speed and direction information to each other, and receive
commands from a street-based control system.  Anything without such
instrumentation could not be allowed.  This would be so cool, a controls
engineer's playground to choreograph this beautifully terrifying
internal-combustion driven ballet of hurtling steel and glass.

spike





From spike66 at att.net  Sun Mar 25 18:55:24 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2012 11:55:24 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Will robot cars be TOO good?
In-Reply-To: <CAHUTwkPnyAaEF87SW6GvFph0Nxe5jhG3TgNFqYxNnedvdo+vbw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armjn1TOSY49uCFiWwhzrLcpkN+i1P1uqPoBg975jBkOQPg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHUTwkPnyAaEF87SW6GvFph0Nxe5jhG3TgNFqYxNnedvdo+vbw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <002b01cd0ab8$d65dbca0$831935e0$@att.net>


>... On Behalf Of Jeff Davis
Subject: Re: [ExI] Will robot cars be TOO good?

>...Friends, I've been thinking about this for quite some time now.  As a
consequence I have had a series of epiphanies...Smart house, smart car,
smart world, smart life, all of it arising from the organizational
capabilities of the collective distributed applications and database of
global, shared, non-private data...That was fun!  Boy do I ever love
technology...Best, Jeff Davis

Ja, me too Jeff.  Among the epiphanies, I realized that to make smart
intersections work right, we need to completely hand over all control of the
vehicle to the street-based processor.  We would merely tell the device our
destination, and let it drive.  We cannot do as we humans do now, wander
around downtown looking for a good lunch spot for instance.  We would need
to know where we want to go, then the control system would take us there,
but only if there is a parking space to fit our own ape-hauler.  We may see
a great parking space open, but we would not have the option to grab it,
because some other ape-hauler four minutes out already has dibs on that
space.  

In return, we could imagine traversing downtown Boston or New York City in a
quarter of an hour while our speed varied from a trot to half of freeway
speeds, seldom or never stopping.  This will really sound cool to anyone who
has tried to do business down by JFK Airport, for instance.

To do that, we must have no pedestrians:  all foot traffic would need to be
elevated two human-heights above the street level.  There can be no
non-automated ape-haulers, nothing that cannot play the scary unforgiving
game, nothing that cannot take directions and act on them via completely
automated control.  

spike



From kellycoinguy at gmail.com  Sun Mar 25 19:31:53 2012
From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2012 13:31:53 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Will robot cars be TOO good?
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armjn1TOSY49uCFiWwhzrLcpkN+i1P1uqPoBg975jBkOQPg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armjn1TOSY49uCFiWwhzrLcpkN+i1P1uqPoBg975jBkOQPg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPy8Rwa8fRY+-sBF-b+f8W_KOep5O__tcjiAod9=PPU2i-sTAg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Mar 25, 2012 at 2:01 AM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:
> Robot Car Intersections Are Terrifyingly Efficient
> <http://spectrum.ieee.org/automaton/robotics/artificial-intelligence/robot-car-intersections-are-terrifyingly-efficient>
>
> Quote:
> Last time we put our life in the hands of a robot car, it managed to
> park itself without crashing or abducting us. Robot cars also know how
> to drive like maniacs, and even how to powerslide. These are all very
> neat tricks -- tricks that might save your life one day. But what's
> going to happen when all cars are this talented? Efficiency. Scary,
> scary efficiency.
>
> It's not just the sensor-driven skills that will soon be common to
> individual cars that will shape the future of automotive
> transportation, but also the ability for cars to communicate with each
> other, sharing constant updates about exactly where they are and where
> they're going. And with enough detailed information being shared at a
> fast enough pace between all vehicles on the road, things like traffic
> lights become completely redundant:
> Watch video demo.

I've had this thought before... :-)  Been thinking about autonomous
cars since the late 1980s, when it was just impossible due to a lack
of sensor technology and processing power.

> Robot cars may have to have the windows blacked out to stop the
> passengers screaming for them to 'SLOW DOWN!'.

The interesting simulation will be what happens when there are about
10% real drivers in there... Then you'll have to re-enable traffic
lights for the humans, which the robotic drivers are free to ignore,
but the human drivers are not. Robot drivers will have to give human
drivers more space... At that point, the time savings for letting the
car drive itself will be a heavy incentive for people to stop driving.
People will begin to hate non-robotic drivers because they will slow
everything down.

As for being terrifying. If you put someone in today's cars from 1880,
they would be terrified. The terror will wear off quickly, and they
will dial up the terror level slowly so as not to give people heart
attacks. People can put in their comfort level in a setting that will
slow them down perhaps, but make them feel safer (say for elderly
people)...

Pedestrians will be safe from robotic cars, but not from human driven
cars. If humans are allowed to continue to drive, there will probably
be more pedestrian fatalities since the pedestrians will begin to feel
safe from the robots over time, and won't be able to tell the human
driven cars. Perhaps the day will arrive that you'll have to put an
indigo flashing light on the top of your car if you are driving
without a robot.

I think the public will eventually demand an end to human drivers
altogether, but it's going to be an interesting path to see how we get
there. Probably a lot of people will die, but likely not as many as
die today.

-Kelly


From kellycoinguy at gmail.com  Sun Mar 25 19:42:42 2012
From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2012 13:42:42 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Will robot cars be TOO good?
In-Reply-To: <CAHUTwkPnyAaEF87SW6GvFph0Nxe5jhG3TgNFqYxNnedvdo+vbw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armjn1TOSY49uCFiWwhzrLcpkN+i1P1uqPoBg975jBkOQPg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHUTwkPnyAaEF87SW6GvFph0Nxe5jhG3TgNFqYxNnedvdo+vbw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPy8Rwa1u+w4Y2ym0JcQxR-TNaZtA5u2d_9GMYToGE3HfYUQXQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Mar 25, 2012 at 11:30 AM, Jeff Davis <jrd1415 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Friends,
>
> I've been thinking about this for quite some time now. ?As a
> consequence I have had a series of epiphanies.

Me too. This should be a fun conversation.

> First, maybe as much as ten years ago, I foresaw the advent of the
> smart phone, but because the term "phone" is legacy terminology from
> the era when a phone was just a phone, I disposed of it and referred
> to my gadget as a "net link".

Certainly that makes sense. One possibility is that you don't allow
humans to drive unless they have a smart phone... er "net link" which
can communicate the irresponsible human driver's intentions to the
other robots. At least they might know from a GPS type function where
the driver is likely to go. That would be helpful. Even if they were
just driving their "normal routes" that would be something a GPS
enabled mobile computer would be able to communicate to other mobile
computers in the vicinity.

> Unaware and unconcerned of other possible "apps", my interest was
> focused on a cooperative transportation system -- basically
> computerized car pooling. ?Lots of folks and their cars on the system,
> and when you want to go somewhere, you tell the system where you want
> to go and when you want to get there, and if you're not taking your
> own vehicle, then the system finds the car for you -- the nearest one
> going, in a timely manner nearest your destination -- and directs that
> vehicle to stop and pick you up.

Certainly this is not a new idea... but it is a very good one. You
would pay a "club membership fee" to be able to get into any car
whenever you wanted to. Kind of like a collective autonomous taxi
service.

> Okay, so far so good.

Yup.

> Accompanying this thought stream was the legacy concept called the
> "smart road". ?You understand: the roadway all wired up and sensored
> up and computerized and "smartly" directing the traffic flow. ?But
> then I realized something. ?Something at the time rather striking: the
> smart road was unnecessary. (You may disagree -- I almost hope you
> will -- and point out some factor which only the smart road can
> provide, thus showing it to be necessary. ?Please, help out in that
> manner.)

I don't think the smart road needs to be in the road itself. However,
there does need to be a centralized database about roads. This could
be thought of as a "smart road in the cloud"... and everything you
need to do would be there.

There might also be the necessity to have ground based GPS
transponders (if that's the right word) that increase the accuracy of
GPS from ground stations. Two or three of these per city using
bandwidth that goes through things better than actual GPS could also
be helpful to getting the system to work better. Other than that, I
think I'm with you. We don't need magnets embedded in the roads...
like we used to.

> The smart road is unnecessary because the smart car can do everything
> the smart road can do. ?The "smart road" functionality can be in the
> cars rather than the road. ?The smart road is redundant. ?All the
> smart cars with **their** sensors and networked dynamic database
> become the smart road.

Right.

> And then another epiphany, which brings me to where I am today. ?With
> the exception of the sensors, the smart car too, is unnecessary. ?The
> once "smart car" is now just a big dumb sensor platform,.....because
> the smartness of the system resides not in the car but entirely in the
> larger data base to which one's personal "net link, with it's
> dedicated local smartness -- or as we now know it: smart phone -- is
> networked.

I think more things than smart phones will be networked mobile
computers in the future. Every car will likely have build in Wifi type
devices, perhaps many of them, in the near future.

> Your smart phone would of course be linked wirelessly to your
> now-not-quite-so-smart car(not to mention everything else).

Perhaps, but why add something that ceases to work when the battery
dies? Just build it into the car and be done with it.

> At which point, the "everything else" progression leads inevitably to
> a somewhat annoying "Well, duh!" moment. ?"It's the "smart world",
> stupid!!!"

Oh yeah.

> Smart house, smart car, smart world, smart life, all of it arising
> from the organizational capabilities of the collective distributed
> applications and database of global, shared, non-private data.

I want a smart fridge that sends me the list of stuff I need while I'm
at Walmart. I want a smart trash can that keeps track of the UPS
symbol of everything I throw away, for similar use.

> That was fun! ?Boy do I ever love technology.

Technology is a blast.

-Kelly



From spike66 at att.net  Sun Mar 25 19:34:42 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2012 12:34:42 -0700
Subject: [ExI] experiment regarding ethical behaviors vs status: was RE:
	Will robot cars be TOO good?
Message-ID: <003e01cd0abe$542669c0$fc733d40$@att.net>


Cool check this article:

http://news.sciencemag.org/sciencenow/2012/02/shame-on-the-rich.html?ref=hp

I had a great idea, worthy of a nice science fair project.

Near my house is a freeway with a right-merge lane.  Drivers are given
plenty of warning that the far right lane is ending.  This gives them a
choice to match speeds with other traffic and merge early, thus extending
the time for their own trip but smoothing traffic.  These are the
cooperators.  They have the choice of speeding ahead in the empty right lane
up to the front of the line and stuffing their car ahead of other patient
drivers who are now well behind, but overall wads up traffic, so it
penalizes the cooperators twice.  These are the defectors.  

I might be imagining it, but I feel like I have observed that there a lot of
Porsche and Beemer drivers who are over-represented among the defectors.
Those particular makes stick in my mind; in general it seems like sporty
German cars are way over-represented in the defector class.  This defies
intuition, for one would think the driver in the ratty old pickup with the
gun-rack in the back window would be the defector: she can force her way in
up front with that 50 dollar rattletrap and you must let her in; she
probably doesn't have insurance, and one more dent on her rusty prolemobile
would scarcely be noticed.  But I seldom see gun-rack pickups do that
defector trick.  It's the shiny German buckmeisters who seem to defect. 

I would like to take some video of this phenom, which is a continuous
experiment that runs 24/7, and try to extract some useful data.

spike



From kellycoinguy at gmail.com  Sun Mar 25 19:48:54 2012
From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2012 13:48:54 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Will robot cars be TOO good?
In-Reply-To: <002b01cd0ab8$d65dbca0$831935e0$@att.net>
References: <CAL_armjn1TOSY49uCFiWwhzrLcpkN+i1P1uqPoBg975jBkOQPg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHUTwkPnyAaEF87SW6GvFph0Nxe5jhG3TgNFqYxNnedvdo+vbw@mail.gmail.com>
 <002b01cd0ab8$d65dbca0$831935e0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAPy8RwZhnMcTgG6CtFN0_i+L0=DwWwq0NFy5_1=nVpz4sCc=uQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Mar 25, 2012 at 12:55 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>
>>... On Behalf Of Jeff Davis
> Subject: Re: [ExI] Will robot cars be TOO good?
> We would need
> to know where we want to go, then the control system would take us there,
> but only if there is a parking space to fit our own ape-hauler. ?We may see
> a great parking space open, but we would not have the option to grab it,
> because some other ape-hauler four minutes out already has dibs on that
> space.

Spike, in a truly smart city, you wouldn't have parking spaces. Think
it through. We all share the same taxi system, so ownership of the car
itself is a thing of the past. Dirty cars also are a thing of the
past, because they take themselves to a place to get cleaned when
someone throws up in them or whatever. But consider the increased
efficiencies we would have if all the parking lanes were turned into
traffic lanes. Every city would become Salt Lake. If the ape hauler
needs to stop and let the ape out or pick one up, the traffic just
goes around it. There is absolutely no need for parking at all.

Another thing that a smart city would need is smart tow trucks. The
apes just hop out of the disabled vehicle, and another one comes by,
but you need a smart tow truck to come by and pick up the disabled
vehicle and take it back to the garage.

Similarly, if they are all electric cars (why not) then they pass you
onto the next car when their battery starts to get tired. Refuel
themselves, etc.

The smart city transportation system would work so well, that I fear
it would be a victim of it's own success in that few people would want
to take the subway, leading to even more congestion, but manageable
congestion.

-Kelly



From kellycoinguy at gmail.com  Sun Mar 25 19:52:28 2012
From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2012 13:52:28 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Will robot cars be TOO good?
In-Reply-To: <002b01cd0ab8$d65dbca0$831935e0$@att.net>
References: <CAL_armjn1TOSY49uCFiWwhzrLcpkN+i1P1uqPoBg975jBkOQPg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHUTwkPnyAaEF87SW6GvFph0Nxe5jhG3TgNFqYxNnedvdo+vbw@mail.gmail.com>
 <002b01cd0ab8$d65dbca0$831935e0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAPy8RwY6pgezeqzGcN2hjLAOtvaF8BQ=8iPvTG_5OY4woP8JpA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Mar 25, 2012 at 12:55 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> To do that, we must have no pedestrians: ?all foot traffic would need to be
> elevated two human-heights above the street level. ?There can be no
> non-automated ape-haulers, nothing that cannot play the scary unforgiving
> game, nothing that cannot take directions and act on them via completely
> automated control.

Eventually, Spike, but politically you can't get rid of pedestrians
and ape driven vehicles all at once. You have to think of a
progression... New Yorkers particularly are used to government telling
them things like they can't have guns. Well, soon the New York
government will say you can't have a non-automated car, but it won't
happen overnight. Think about the transition period. People have to
die in greater numbers in non-automated cars for some time before the
transition can be totally completed. And even then there might be the
occasional license to drive... but I don't see why most people would
want to drive most of the time when other alternative activities await
them in mobile cyberspace.

-Kelly



From kellycoinguy at gmail.com  Sun Mar 25 19:55:57 2012
From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2012 13:55:57 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Will robot cars be TOO good?
In-Reply-To: <CAPy8RwY6pgezeqzGcN2hjLAOtvaF8BQ=8iPvTG_5OY4woP8JpA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armjn1TOSY49uCFiWwhzrLcpkN+i1P1uqPoBg975jBkOQPg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHUTwkPnyAaEF87SW6GvFph0Nxe5jhG3TgNFqYxNnedvdo+vbw@mail.gmail.com>
 <002b01cd0ab8$d65dbca0$831935e0$@att.net>
 <CAPy8RwY6pgezeqzGcN2hjLAOtvaF8BQ=8iPvTG_5OY4woP8JpA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPy8RwZLVR1V1yg77W7G7VKa30Z-QEB9atvpPtJXcZRJ66-qFA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Mar 25, 2012 at 1:52 PM, Kelly Anderson <kellycoinguy at gmail.com> wrote:
> ...but I don't see why most people would
> want to drive most of the time when other alternative activities await
> them in mobile cyberspace.

In fact, one of the things you could do in mobile virtual cyberspace
is get into an automobile simulator and pretend that you are
driving... LOL... That just struck me as funny. In an automobile
(truly auto) you are logged into a virtual world pretending to drive.
There's a funny symmetry there...

Perhaps this gives me an idea for a piece of futuristic artwork...
imagine a guy in a car being driven down a busy city street, with a VR
helmet on, and a bubble over his head showing him driving his own car
in the country in virtual reality. It could really happen!!! This is
hilarious. I must draw this...

-Kelly


From pharos at gmail.com  Sun Mar 25 21:21:02 2012
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2012 22:21:02 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Will robot cars be TOO good?
In-Reply-To: <CAHUTwkPnyAaEF87SW6GvFph0Nxe5jhG3TgNFqYxNnedvdo+vbw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armjn1TOSY49uCFiWwhzrLcpkN+i1P1uqPoBg975jBkOQPg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHUTwkPnyAaEF87SW6GvFph0Nxe5jhG3TgNFqYxNnedvdo+vbw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armisZ4Pasrv9ckT7RhGiS58-pFSyZJpLN89ubtf-iSDvJg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Mar 25, 2012 at 6:30 PM, Jeff Davis wrote:
<snip>
> Smart house, smart car, smart world, smart life, all of it arising
> from the organizational capabilities of the collective distributed
> applications and database of global, shared, non-private data.
>
> That was fun! ?Boy do I ever love technology.
>
>


Yes, I remember this being discussed years ago on the list.

I have the feeling of the environment itself coming alive with digital
intelligence.

It's like everything around me is gradually waking up. Awesome!


BillK



From msd001 at gmail.com  Sun Mar 25 21:27:21 2012
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2012 17:27:21 -0400
Subject: [ExI] experiment regarding ethical behaviors vs status: was RE:
 Will robot cars be TOO good?
In-Reply-To: <003e01cd0abe$542669c0$fc733d40$@att.net>
References: <003e01cd0abe$542669c0$fc733d40$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAOJFdb+KPf0t0NOcTw-sniVQGXGb5tMQJDufVbQtb5NStbP8bA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Mar 25, 2012 at 3:34 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> cooperators. ?They have the choice of speeding ahead in the empty right lane
> up to the front of the line and stuffing their car ahead of other patient
> drivers who are now well behind, but overall wads up traffic, so it
> penalizes the cooperators twice. ?These are the defectors.

I think the cooperators should be equipped with paintball guns to
"tag" the defectors for future identification.

I wonder if the defectors would find such tagging a sufficient
deterrent to keep them in the cooperator lane?



From msd001 at gmail.com  Sun Mar 25 21:28:08 2012
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2012 17:28:08 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Reason rally media coverage
In-Reply-To: <CAL+RtPdj-J4jyTtGt+OJ=gvonOFbG2Fx1EkBASphk=1rcxNWng@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL+RtPdj-J4jyTtGt+OJ=gvonOFbG2Fx1EkBASphk=1rcxNWng@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOJFdbKA1Nbe=UUER_XKaC5Qg0RThBrcO_TR_NA2uu4mKHUpKQ@mail.gmail.com>

2012/3/25 Giovanni Santostasi <gsantostasi at gmail.com>:
> Have you followed or participated in person to the Reason Rally? What do you
> think of the media coverage of this event? Is the media doing a good job in
> representing the views and letting people know about it?

I hadn't heard of it.  But there a lot of things I don't hear about.


From msd001 at gmail.com  Sun Mar 25 21:31:07 2012
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2012 17:31:07 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Record-breaking laser pulse boosts fusion power hopes
In-Reply-To: <CAPoR7a7Bdy3Dm9sM+u9aNtJwJo_ijfJEjdi5C57drf=Ogd349Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPoR7a7Bdy3Dm9sM+u9aNtJwJo_ijfJEjdi5C57drf=Ogd349Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOJFdb+DHjABuKuh841CseOiNJrNhmm6Fx-NEe9Zzjg_KRqL8A@mail.gmail.com>

2012/3/25 Stefano Vaj <stefano.vaj at gmail.com>:
> Hey, I like my tokamaks like the next guy, but...
>
> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/03/23/nif_laser_pulse/

Do we know how much energy it takes to light a fusion reaction?


From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 25 21:43:49 2012
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2012 14:43:49 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] The NSA's new data center
In-Reply-To: <CAPoR7a6=FVPgxLK5Lk=+T_QBYvueAt29rTYqnsaU2isyim+sVg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <201203172251.q2HMphhn024879@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <CAM5aL2dXQdi8Kdm+TkHPi6Rqzus0uB9c5xubvJB5rw544rd=0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a40aLY09gmJh8N59y08pWQ70V25ENaEdazTZRGmnumfSw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2fp77OtogSLfJ9s2wxKpuF1LnfS7yhfk8ZXnh2zUGrepA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a5F80+CXiinanZjTiBSKcWf7xNA3Vp_TuT0MLe2DsS=jw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4F6DBFE3.9070109@aleph.se>
 <201203241454.q2OEsBKv014861@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <20120324150522.GI9891@leitl.org>
 <201203241528.q2OFStlk023463@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <20120324154627.GL9891@leitl.org>
 <201203241613.q2OGDuc6013513@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <CAPoR7a4zAHiE-LZSqX4MZ7ZowN7gc5v4H-ATecs+dxFecosW7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <201203241725.q2OHP6Ve010600@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <CALAdGNQggXL-R64g64mwLKGeZgXw=Rjfo0dUYBP-iHggBUoREA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPy8RwbtAVMNzqONE--hXciR7AAX3URP_pesFXHBRV5wc8uvWg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a6=FVPgxLK5Lk=+T_QBYvueAt29rTYqnsaU2isyim+sVg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1332711829.43647.YahooMailNeo@web164503.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

_______________________________
>From: Stefano Vaj <stefano.vaj at gmail.com>
>To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> 
>Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2012 6:46 AM
>Subject: Re: [ExI] The NSA's new data center
>
>
>On 25 March 2012 04:28, Kelly Anderson <kellycoinguy at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>However, video cameras and storage follow Moore's Law, and eventually
>>it will be so cheap that nobody can justify not doing it on a
>>financial basis.
>>
>My prediction, and sincere (albeit somewhat "tragic") hope, is that at the end of the day they will be so cheap, small, powerful and widespread that nobody can prevent their generalised use *no matter what the justification for doing that might be*. 
>
>Heck, law enforcement is a failure enough today in controlling the moving and using of *tons* of marijuana... :-)
>
>So: both good and bad secrecy/privacy are likely IMHO to go down the drain, and we had better be prepared to that.
>
>There again, the scenario of Other Days, Other Eyes, and of The Light of Other Days comes to mind.
?
?
This is somewhat pertinent. Many cities are purposefully removing the red-light cameras they had previously installed. Although the articles cite many reasons, this trend was first brought to my attention by someone who claimed it was beecause cities were *losing* revenue from traffic citations. People learned where the cameras were and stopped?running those lights. Eventually the cameras lost the cities more than it made them in revenue.
?
Sometimes the state benefits?more from crime and subsequent punishment than it does from?preventative law-enforcement.
?
http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/07/28/l-a-city-council-votes-to-remove-red-light-cameras/
?
http://www.thecarconnection.com/news/1065577_houston-joins-l-a-in-removing-red-light-cameras
?
?
?
Stuart LaForge


"The state that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards, and its fighting by fools." -Thucydides.



From kellycoinguy at gmail.com  Sun Mar 25 23:17:29 2012
From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2012 17:17:29 -0600
Subject: [ExI] 5th Grade Science Fair -- Evolution
In-Reply-To: <CAL+RtPfzvwU1KFTznmfGMuXMKZ8iq9CjcLTT9yRGKtrhcMts0A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPy8RwacbOK+NMwErk9xLKWK=LjJMJfePfPd_SKUN728o7-oYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <00e401cd0a4b$29a77e00$7cf67a00$@att.net>
 <4F6EB801.9080006@canonizer.com>
 <011b01cd0a99$7bf43b50$73dcb1f0$@att.net>
 <CAL+RtPfzvwU1KFTznmfGMuXMKZ8iq9CjcLTT9yRGKtrhcMts0A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPy8RwatZ_Rtrg5F-fODYHZE8_DnJcU+EGtB8ODY3ZnaAo2-7g@mail.gmail.com>

2012/3/25 Giovanni Santostasi <gsantostasi at gmail.com>:
> Do you buy the flies from a biological supplier?

I bought them online, the Commercial Size... You could buy a smaller
kit, but I wanted enough stuff to go multiple generations.
http://www.buyfruitflies.com/shop_culturekit.html

> Which one? Would be interesting to see a graph of average speed as a
> function of generation number.

That's what we're hoping for. We have a little graph now, but it's not
terribly interesting so far. Also, it seems that they are getting
larger, so I'm looking for a sensitive scale to weigh them.

> How many generations you got so far?

We have the Control, a First Generation Selected and a Second Generation.
If control speed is 1
First generation speed is around 1.4
Second generation speed is around 3.7

> Could
> you get the speed of individual flies (if not all, at least a good sample?).

What we did was take a video, then cut the video off in a video editor
at the starting point, then took frame shots at 4 seconds, 8 seconds
and 12 seconds. Then we counted how many flies were in various
sections of the cup (sometimes we had to refer back to the video to
see what was going on in the still frames) and then figured the
average length they would have to go to get to that part of the cup,
and the rest was just simple math.

> It would be interesting to see the distribution of the individual flies
> speeds to see if there is a change in distribution.

The fastest flies are a bit faster, but the majority of the difference
seems to be that there are fewer flies content to sit on their butt at
the bottom of the cup.

> Another thing to be
> careful about is when you take the speeds, try to do it at the same time of
> the day and under same light conditions, because circadian rhythms could
> affect the speed.

We race two cups at the same time and video them both side by side.
That way, for any given race, we know how much faster the group we are
measuring is compared to the control.

> That could be an interesting follow up of your study
> (maybe for next year project). How the flies in each generation change their
> rhythms, do they become more?synchronized?with the from biological rhythms?
> Make sure to keep similar light-dark cycles conditions during the
> experiment.

The thing that I'm curious about is whether the improvement will peak
out at some point... whether there is a point beyond which they simply
will not improve any more. And of course, it would be super cool if we
actually got a new species... but I'm not counting on that... :-)
Might take hundreds of generations to do something like that, but it's
going faster than I thought so far, so we'll see.

-Kelly



From kellycoinguy at gmail.com  Sun Mar 25 23:29:53 2012
From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2012 17:29:53 -0600
Subject: [ExI] The NSA's new data center
In-Reply-To: <20120325090553.GI9891@leitl.org>
References: <4F6DBFE3.9070109@aleph.se>
 <201203241454.q2OEsBKv014861@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <20120324150522.GI9891@leitl.org>
 <201203241528.q2OFStlk023463@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <20120324154627.GL9891@leitl.org>
 <201203241613.q2OGDuc6013513@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <CAPoR7a4zAHiE-LZSqX4MZ7ZowN7gc5v4H-ATecs+dxFecosW7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <201203241725.q2OHP6Ve010600@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <CALAdGNQggXL-R64g64mwLKGeZgXw=Rjfo0dUYBP-iHggBUoREA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPy8RwbtAVMNzqONE--hXciR7AAX3URP_pesFXHBRV5wc8uvWg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120325090553.GI9891@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <CAPy8Rwb4CgRR12U-MF4NNdWyjVm9N9Yqn2FkbciH5kMjMW_qtQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Mar 25, 2012 at 3:05 AM, Eugen Leitl <eugen at leitl.org> wrote:
> On Sat, Mar 24, 2012 at 08:28:05PM -0600, Kelly Anderson wrote:
>
>> However, video cameras and storage follow Moore's Law, and eventually
>> it will be so cheap that nobody can justify not doing it on a
>> financial basis.
>
> So you'll get seamless coverage of the back room deals in Washington?
> I'm sure only Moore prevents us from being there. I'm sure the board
> meetings won't mind a few perching quadcopters in there, either.
> Transparency is good, after all.

I have a kind of vision of nanobot video cameras just crawling all
over the place, self replicating (under control, of course - don't
want grey goo), and doing mesh communication to relay the images back
to a central server. Try to hide from those Bin Laden... Who owns
these? Everyone who wants to. Where will they be? Everywhere. The only
thing that could stop you would be the law, and there are enough
people willing to break the law with video cameras today that I don't
see that as an effective deterrent.

Technology like this is going to make it really difficult for multiple
governments to continue to function independently. I am guessing that
we're headed for a one world government IF the populace is going to
continue to insist on privacy... but I don't know that the populace
will insist on that. The next generation is just giving away their
secrets on Facebook as though they have no value whatsoever. And I
care a lot less about privacy than the generation before me... so
maybe the one world government can be prevented. Maybe.

>> This new data center is less than ten miles from my house. I had heard
>> only the lightest whispers of such a thing going in. There are a lot
>> of construction activities in the area right now, so it's not hard to
>> believe that it got lost in the noise.
>
> I wonder why they let Bamford get away with it year after year.
> I understand he has some fans in the agency, and since he's not
> getting any info on the really juicy stuff keeping the agency
> in the press makes sense. It's hard to justify your budget if
> you're not there.

Freedom of the press? I think it's in some barely consequential
document referred to as "The Constitution"... but we'll probably not
pay much attention to that in the future if current trends hold.

-Kelly


From kellycoinguy at gmail.com  Sun Mar 25 23:42:37 2012
From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2012 17:42:37 -0600
Subject: [ExI] The NSA's new data center
In-Reply-To: <1332711829.43647.YahooMailNeo@web164503.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <201203172251.q2HMphhn024879@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <CAM5aL2dXQdi8Kdm+TkHPi6Rqzus0uB9c5xubvJB5rw544rd=0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a40aLY09gmJh8N59y08pWQ70V25ENaEdazTZRGmnumfSw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2fp77OtogSLfJ9s2wxKpuF1LnfS7yhfk8ZXnh2zUGrepA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a5F80+CXiinanZjTiBSKcWf7xNA3Vp_TuT0MLe2DsS=jw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4F6DBFE3.9070109@aleph.se>
 <201203241454.q2OEsBKv014861@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <20120324150522.GI9891@leitl.org>
 <201203241528.q2OFStlk023463@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <20120324154627.GL9891@leitl.org>
 <201203241613.q2OGDuc6013513@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <CAPoR7a4zAHiE-LZSqX4MZ7ZowN7gc5v4H-ATecs+dxFecosW7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <201203241725.q2OHP6Ve010600@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <CALAdGNQggXL-R64g64mwLKGeZgXw=Rjfo0dUYBP-iHggBUoREA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPy8RwbtAVMNzqONE--hXciR7AAX3URP_pesFXHBRV5wc8uvWg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a6=FVPgxLK5Lk=+T_QBYvueAt29rTYqnsaU2isyim+sVg@mail.gmail.com>
 <1332711829.43647.YahooMailNeo@web164503.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAPy8RwYmwkS4c7ngf3yX4wd_B01RoO10o5+VBOqSCGB2G7vr7g@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Mar 25, 2012 at 3:43 PM, The Avantguardian
<avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> This is somewhat pertinent. Many cities are purposefully removing the red-light cameras they had previously installed. Although the articles cite many reasons, this trend was first brought to my attention by someone who claimed it was beecause cities were *losing* revenue from traffic citations. People learned where the cameras were and stopped?running those lights. Eventually the cameras lost the cities more than it made them in revenue.
>
> Sometimes the state benefits?more from crime and subsequent punishment than it does from?preventative law-enforcement.
>
> http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/07/28/l-a-city-council-votes-to-remove-red-light-cameras/
>
> http://www.thecarconnection.com/news/1065577_houston-joins-l-a-in-removing-red-light-cameras

I would find it extremely discouraging if this were a financial issue.
However, in reading the articles it seems that the problem is more
that the public finds the programs distasteful, and they are not able
to support them politically. As for the money, the LA program was
poorly conceived in that they only put the cameras on SOME lights, and
not the right lights at that. They also need to take a picture of the
car's driver so the courts can be sure they are ticketing the right
place. LA's program was also voluntary, you didn't have to pay the
fine. Apparently 40% of the people decided not to. Not a big surprise
being so many people in LA illegally to begin with... sigh.

Why it didn't work in Texas is a bit more of a mystery, except that
there was a ballot initiative to remove them. The people spoke, and
they'll have to pay the bill.

If it was JUST a money issue, they could just charge more for the
tickets. Moore's law again will take care of this part of the problem
over time. The cost of video surveillance equipment has plummeted over
the last decade as I've looked at systems. A $300 system today does
much more than a $10K system of ten years ago. With programs like
Vitamin C, it's only going to get more affordable and ubiquitous. I
just assume I'm on camera everywhere except inside my house... and my
son snuck a picture of me this morning.... LOL

-Kelly



From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Sun Mar 25 23:54:20 2012
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2012 16:54:20 -0700
Subject: [ExI] experiment regarding ethical behaviors vs status: was RE:
 Will robot cars be TOO good?
In-Reply-To: <CAOJFdb+KPf0t0NOcTw-sniVQGXGb5tMQJDufVbQtb5NStbP8bA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <003e01cd0abe$542669c0$fc733d40$@att.net>
 <CAOJFdb+KPf0t0NOcTw-sniVQGXGb5tMQJDufVbQtb5NStbP8bA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy27jR+EZG0-1hqwDh6=0DZiNvWQ1feax11fea=yPm2aHA@mail.gmail.com>

Spike, I think this explains what you are seeing...


http://business.financialpost.com/2012/02/27/wealthy-more-likely-to-lie-cheat-study/


John

On Sun, Mar 25, 2012 at 2:27 PM, Mike Dougherty <msd001 at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sun, Mar 25, 2012 at 3:34 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> > cooperators.  They have the choice of speeding ahead in the empty right
> lane
> > up to the front of the line and stuffing their car ahead of other patient
> > drivers who are now well behind, but overall wads up traffic, so it
> > penalizes the cooperators twice.  These are the defectors.
>
> I think the cooperators should be equipped with paintball guns to
> "tag" the defectors for future identification.
>
> I wonder if the defectors would find such tagging a sufficient
> deterrent to keep them in the cooperator lane?
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Mon Mar 26 00:07:59 2012
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2012 17:07:59 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Hungry? Then place an order with,"TacoCopter!"
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy1ybbpzXpOXmJi_VBQC7p2qpw-F-ZJ3AKnvZ6103CP-Pw@mail.gmail.com>

A company is going to allow people to order tacos from their smart phone,
to have the food actually delivered to their location via small robotic
quadcopters that home in on the customer's gps location!


http://singularityhub.com/2012/03/25/tacocopter-tacos-delivered-straight-to-your-home-with-gps-guided-quadcopters/?utm_source=The+Harvest+Is+Bountiful&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=e1e8766d5a-RSS_EMAIL_CAMPAIGN


John  : )
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From gsantostasi at gmail.com  Mon Mar 26 00:34:53 2012
From: gsantostasi at gmail.com (Giovanni Santostasi)
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2012 19:34:53 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Reason rally media coverage
In-Reply-To: <CAOJFdbKA1Nbe=UUER_XKaC5Qg0RThBrcO_TR_NA2uu4mKHUpKQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL+RtPdj-J4jyTtGt+OJ=gvonOFbG2Fx1EkBASphk=1rcxNWng@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOJFdbKA1Nbe=UUER_XKaC5Qg0RThBrcO_TR_NA2uu4mKHUpKQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL+RtPdX0HNz8CY=o5+oTBeGUD8MvgkPF0cPt=OEqEtqFT5P9Q@mail.gmail.com>

30 thousand people participated, it is a big event, I would say historical.
The biggest non believer rally ever.
Giovanni


On Sun, Mar 25, 2012 at 4:28 PM, Mike Dougherty <msd001 at gmail.com> wrote:

> 2012/3/25 Giovanni Santostasi <gsantostasi at gmail.com>:
> > Have you followed or participated in person to the Reason Rally? What do
> you
> > think of the media coverage of this event? Is the media doing a good job
> in
> > representing the views and letting people know about it?
>
> I hadn't heard of it.  But there a lot of things I don't hear about.
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 26 00:28:37 2012
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2012 17:28:37 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] experiment regarding ethical behaviors vs status:
References: <003e01cd0abe$542669c0$fc733d40$@att.net> 
Message-ID: <1332721717.43388.YahooMailNeo@web164503.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

----- Original Message -----
> From: spike <spike66 at att.net>
> To: 'ExI chat list' <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Cc: 
> Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2012 12:34 PM
> Subject: [ExI] experiment regarding ethical behaviors vs status: was RE: Will robot cars be TOO good?
> 
> 
> Cool check this article:
> 
> http://news.sciencemag.org/sciencenow/2012/02/shame-on-the-rich.html?ref=hp
> 
> I had a great idea, worthy of a nice science fair project.
> 
> Near my house is a freeway with a right-merge lane.? Drivers are given
> plenty of warning that the far right lane is ending.? This gives them a
> choice to match speeds with other traffic and merge early, thus extending
> the time for their own trip but smoothing traffic.? These are the
> cooperators.? They have the choice of speeding ahead in the empty right lane
> up to the front of the line and stuffing their car ahead of other patient
> drivers who are now well behind, but overall wads up traffic, so it
> penalizes the cooperators twice.? These are the defectors.? 

That is a keen observation, Spike. Similar lines of reasoning led me to look at morality and ethics through the lens of game theory. What I discovered is that morality has a sliding scale weighed against necessity?that is, except in rare cases, trumped by survival. Nobody demonizes the Donner Party for infighting and canibalism as they starved to death in the Sierra Nevadas during the middle of winter. Yet Jeffrey Dahmer, presumably not in danger of starving at the time of his crimes, is demonized. For the very same ultimate act. So society deems cannibalism acceptable under duress but?evil?when at leisure.

This is why when?someone says something is good or evil, I always ask for whom? After all if God was on everybody's side, then all that Divine Intervention and Providence would simply cancel out. Then it would be as if . . . *gasp* . . . there were no God at all.

> I might be imagining it, but I feel like I have observed that there a lot of
> Porsche and Beemer drivers who are over-represented among the defectors.
> Those particular makes stick in my mind; in general it seems like sporty
> German cars are way over-represented in the defector class.? This defies
> intuition, for one would think the driver in the ratty old pickup with the
> gun-rack in the back window would be the defector: she can force her way in
> up front with that 50 dollar rattletrap and you must let her in; she
> probably doesn't have insurance, and one more dent on her rusty prolemobile
> would scarcely be noticed.? But I seldom see gun-rack pickups do that
> defector trick.? It's the shiny German buckmeisters who seem to defect. 

It does not defy my intuition at all. People don't achieve status by being nice, they achieve?status two ways:?by being ruthless or by inheriting it from somebody who was.?And if you think the driver is rude?on the road, then imagine how he is with people who might be standing in?the way?of his?promotion at work. While that pickup driver would probably call you sir if properly approached. Curiously, I have observed that as you climb the scale of luxury cars, starting at around high-end Mercedes and proceeding through Bentleys and Rolls-Royces, the drivers start again becoming more polite. But by that time the person in question doesn't need to hurry anywhere and?they likely have a paid professional driver to be polite and keep?their car safe.?

> I would like to take some video of this phenom, which is a continuous
> experiment that runs 24/7, and try to extract some useful data.
?
Sounds like a very cool experiment to try, Spike. You would make a formidable scientist,?senor controls engineer.
?

Stuart LaForge


"The state that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards, and its fighting by fools." -Thucydides. 



From atymes at gmail.com  Mon Mar 26 00:44:29 2012
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2012 17:44:29 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Hungry? Then place an order with,"TacoCopter!"
In-Reply-To: <CAGSKFy1ybbpzXpOXmJi_VBQC7p2qpw-F-ZJ3AKnvZ6103CP-Pw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGSKFy1ybbpzXpOXmJi_VBQC7p2qpw-F-ZJ3AKnvZ6103CP-Pw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNRLxZjceoMY7QJ=HYg+05Yo+np20V500UOY3SbseJE00A@mail.gmail.com>

Sadly, it is a hoax.

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2402069,00.asp

On Sun, Mar 25, 2012 at 5:07 PM, John Grigg <possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com> wrote:
> A company is going to allow people to order tacos from their smart phone, to
> have the food actually delivered to their location via small robotic
> quadcopters that home in on the customer's gps location!
>
>
> http://singularityhub.com/2012/03/25/tacocopter-tacos-delivered-straight-to-your-home-with-gps-guided-quadcopters/?utm_source=The+Harvest+Is+Bountiful&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=e1e8766d5a-RSS_EMAIL_CAMPAIGN
>
>
> John? : )
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>



From spike66 at att.net  Mon Mar 26 01:53:56 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2012 18:53:56 -0700
Subject: [ExI] 5th Grade Science Fair -- Evolution
In-Reply-To: <CAPy8RwatZ_Rtrg5F-fODYHZE8_DnJcU+EGtB8ODY3ZnaAo2-7g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPy8RwacbOK+NMwErk9xLKWK=LjJMJfePfPd_SKUN728o7-oYg@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <00ac01cd0af3$4e77fef0$eb67fcd0$@att.net>


>... On Behalf Of Kelly Anderson
Subject: Re: [ExI] 5th Grade Science Fair -- Evolution

...
>...The thing that I'm curious about is whether the improvement will peak
out at some point... whether there is a point beyond which they simply will
not improve any more. And of course, it would be super cool if we actually
got a new species... but I'm not counting on that... :-) Might take hundreds
of generations to do something like that, but it's going faster than I
thought so far, so we'll see.  -Kelly

_______________________________________________

We had a guy who used to hang out on Extropians a long time ago, kept fruit
fly CR/longevity experiments going for years.  His name is Doug Skrecky.
Eventually he went over to hang out on Cryonet.  I never met him personally,
but I have half a mind to try to find Doug, and tell him we are inspired by
his work, the longevity experiments and so forth.  I don't think we fully
appreciated him while he was hanging out here.  I haven't seen a post of his
in over a decade.

If anyone here knows Doug or is friends with him, do post him a note, tell
him we miss him, invite him to drop in on old friends.

spike



From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Mon Mar 26 02:24:43 2012
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2012 19:24:43 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Hungry? Then place an order with,"TacoCopter!"
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNRLxZjceoMY7QJ=HYg+05Yo+np20V500UOY3SbseJE00A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGSKFy1ybbpzXpOXmJi_VBQC7p2qpw-F-ZJ3AKnvZ6103CP-Pw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRLxZjceoMY7QJ=HYg+05Yo+np20V500UOY3SbseJE00A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy3LNrBDy2-bALBL2AgAAYfNyUDV6nSxWnqHzy_Otarsbg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Mar 25, 2012 at 5:44 PM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:

> Sadly, it is a hoax.
>
> http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2402069,00.asp




Well, it should be true!


John  : )




>  On Sun, Mar 25, 2012 at 5:07 PM, John Grigg <possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > A company is going to allow people to order tacos from their smart
> phone, to
> > have the food actually delivered to their location via small robotic
> > quadcopters that home in on the customer's gps location!
> >
> >
> >
> http://singularityhub.com/2012/03/25/tacocopter-tacos-delivered-straight-to-your-home-with-gps-guided-quadcopters/?utm_source=The+Harvest+Is+Bountiful&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=e1e8766d5a-RSS_EMAIL_CAMPAIGN
> >
> >
> > John  : )
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > extropy-chat mailing list
> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Mon Mar 26 02:30:53 2012
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2012 19:30:53 -0700
Subject: [ExI] 5th Grade Science Fair -- Evolution
In-Reply-To: <00ac01cd0af3$4e77fef0$eb67fcd0$@att.net>
References: <CAPy8RwacbOK+NMwErk9xLKWK=LjJMJfePfPd_SKUN728o7-oYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <00e401cd0a4b$29a77e00$7cf67a00$@att.net>
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Message-ID: <CAGSKFy3OGmEhHG2zvOwUBLjNNSL9Lx8QNVYnmCx9EaOk-PCaGQ@mail.gmail.com>

>
> Spike wrote:
> We had a guy who used to hang out on Extropians a long time ago, kept fruit
> fly CR/longevity experiments going for years.  His name is Doug Skrecky.
> Eventually he went over to hang out on Cryonet.  I never met him
> personally,
> but I have half a mind to try to find Doug, and tell him we are inspired by
> his work, the longevity experiments and so forth.  I don't think we fully
> appreciated him while he was hanging out here.  I haven't seen a post of
> his
> in over a decade.
>
> If anyone here knows Doug or is friends with him, do post him a note, tell
> him we miss him, invite him to drop in on old friends.
>


I remember how Doug Skrecky would routinely post about his fruit fly
experiments on Cryonet.  We all became very used to it, and it was the only
thing he would ever post about.  And then one day out of the blue, we got a
post from him that told a joke about a man who went to see his doctor! LOL
And then Doug went right back to only posting about his fruit fly
experiments....


John  ; )
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From natasha at natasha.cc  Mon Mar 26 02:06:24 2012
From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More)
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2012 21:06:24 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Reason rally media coverage
In-Reply-To: <CAL+RtPdX0HNz8CY=o5+oTBeGUD8MvgkPF0cPt=OEqEtqFT5P9Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL+RtPdj-J4jyTtGt+OJ=gvonOFbG2Fx1EkBASphk=1rcxNWng@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOJFdbKA1Nbe=UUER_XKaC5Qg0RThBrcO_TR_NA2uu4mKHUpKQ@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <004401cd0af5$0bf540e0$23dfc2a0$@cc>

This is an event that I would  RALLY around!

 

 <http://www.natasha.cc/> Natasha Vita-More
Chairman, Humanity+ 

PhD Researcher, Univ. of Plymouth, UK
Editor, The Transhumanist Reader: Classical and Contemporary 
Essays on the Science, Technology and Philosophy of the Human Future

 

 

From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Giovanni
Santostasi
Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2012 7:35 PM
To: ExI chat list
Subject: Re: [ExI] Reason rally media coverage

 

30 thousand people participated, it is a big event, I would say historical.
The biggest non believer rally ever.

Giovanni

 

On Sun, Mar 25, 2012 at 4:28 PM, Mike Dougherty <msd001 at gmail.com> wrote:

2012/3/25 Giovanni Santostasi <gsantostasi at gmail.com>:

> Have you followed or participated in person to the Reason Rally? What do
you
> think of the media coverage of this event? Is the media doing a good job
in
> representing the views and letting people know about it?

I hadn't heard of it.  But there a lot of things I don't hear about.
_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

 

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From spike66 at att.net  Mon Mar 26 03:45:51 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2012 20:45:51 -0700
Subject: [ExI] experiment regarding ethical behaviors vs status: was RE:
	Will robot cars be TOO good?
In-Reply-To: <CAOJFdb+KPf0t0NOcTw-sniVQGXGb5tMQJDufVbQtb5NStbP8bA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <003e01cd0abe$542669c0$fc733d40$@att.net>
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Message-ID: <00c201cd0b02$f15852f0$d408f8d0$@att.net>


>... On Behalf Of Mike Dougherty
Subject: Re: [ExI] experiment regarding ethical behaviors vs status: was RE:
Will robot cars be TOO good?

On Sun, Mar 25, 2012 at 3:34 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

>> ...cooperators. ?They have the choice of speeding ahead in the empty 
> right lane up to the front of the line and stuffing their car ahead of 
> other patient drivers who are now well behind, but overall wads up 
> traffic, so it penalizes the cooperators twice. ?These are the defectors.

>...I think the cooperators should be equipped with paintball guns to "tag"
the defectors for future identification...

Actually the thought had occurred to me.  It would be easy to rig up a
paintball gun underneath one's vehicle in such a way that it could not be
easily detected.  Then a remote trigger could be rigged, so that the driver
could paintball some defecting beemer as he streaked by.  It would be fun on
multiple levels: it catches the reptilian urge to avenge oneself upon the
defecting speedster, Herr Porsche, and it would be a cool interesting
challenge from an engineering point of view.

>...I wonder if the defectors would find such tagging a sufficient deterrent
to keep them in the cooperator lane?

It actually would alter the traditional notion of cooperator and defector,
if there is some compelling reason to not defect.  As Hofstadter posed the
question in his 1986 Scientific American columns, the notion of cooperation
must be from the good of the heart, a karma thing completely, with no
external fear factor applied to the defector.  Cooperating is analogous to a
completely non-tax-deductible anonymous donation, and defecting is analogous
to keeping the money in a wallet one finds on the sidewalk when no one is in
sight.  No score for cooperating out of fear, or wish for any reward in this
life.

Still it would thrill my soul to whop some speedy jerk in a Mercedes SL
class with a paintball.  I had a better idea.  It would be easy to rig up a
spring plunger BB gun, replace the BB with viscous watercolor in the barrel.
It wouldn't cause any damage to Frauline Beemer's car, since the paint would
wash away, but it would remind her that the row of cars she tore past has at
least one creative thinking rocket scientist.

spike
_______________________________________________






From kellycoinguy at gmail.com  Mon Mar 26 05:50:39 2012
From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2012 23:50:39 -0600
Subject: [ExI] 5th Grade Science Fair -- Evolution
In-Reply-To: <CAGSKFy3OGmEhHG2zvOwUBLjNNSL9Lx8QNVYnmCx9EaOk-PCaGQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPy8RwacbOK+NMwErk9xLKWK=LjJMJfePfPd_SKUN728o7-oYg@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAPy8RwZ9=y_O+60x=XK_LAYsm3XodS45qrL1T=TaTN_CTygLsw@mail.gmail.com>

2012/3/25 John Grigg <possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com>:
>> Spike wrote:
> I remember how Doug Skrecky would routinely post about his fruit fly
> experiments on Cryonet.? We all became very?used to it, and it was the only
> thing he would ever?post about.? And then one day out of?the blue, we got a
> post from him that told a joke about a man?who went to see his doctor! LOL
> And then Doug went right back to only posting about his fruit fly
> experiments....

I'm a bit more eclectic and opinionated than that... LOL

-Kelly



From eugen at leitl.org  Mon Mar 26 08:41:11 2012
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 10:41:11 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Will robot cars be TOO good?
In-Reply-To: <002a01cd0ab6$61925cc0$24b71640$@att.net>
References: <CAL_armjn1TOSY49uCFiWwhzrLcpkN+i1P1uqPoBg975jBkOQPg@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <20120326084111.GJ17245@leitl.org>

On Sun, Mar 25, 2012 at 11:37:49AM -0700, spike wrote:

> To make this work in the densest part of the city, we would need to move all
> pedestrian and bicycle traffic above the street level.  The cars would need
> to communicate speed and direction information to each other, and receive
> commands from a street-based control system.  Anything without such
> instrumentation could not be allowed.  This would be so cool, a controls
> engineer's playground to choreograph this beautifully terrifying
> internal-combustion driven ballet of hurtling steel and glass.

Meh. I'd go for a bus matrix packet-switched underground network
(electric) for cargo and some person transport. 

The rest by telepresence (leave the monkeys at home) and 
small autopiloted aircraft. 


From eugen at leitl.org  Mon Mar 26 08:52:42 2012
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 10:52:42 +0200
Subject: [ExI] The NSA's new data center
In-Reply-To: <CAPy8Rwb4CgRR12U-MF4NNdWyjVm9N9Yqn2FkbciH5kMjMW_qtQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20120324150522.GI9891@leitl.org>
 <201203241528.q2OFStlk023463@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <20120324154627.GL9891@leitl.org>
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Message-ID: <20120326085242.GL17245@leitl.org>

On Sun, Mar 25, 2012 at 05:29:53PM -0600, Kelly Anderson wrote:

> I have a kind of vision of nanobot video cameras just crawling all
> over the place, self replicating (under control, of course - don't
> want grey goo), and doing mesh communication to relay the images back
> to a central server. Try to hide from those Bin Laden... Who owns

If you can do this you can do perimeter security and alife immunosystems.
The toner wars are coming.

> these? Everyone who wants to. Where will they be? Everywhere. The only
> thing that could stop you would be the law, and there are enough
> people willing to break the law with video cameras today that I don't
> see that as an effective deterrent.

Today is a very early time in surveillance/sousveillance. Already
unlawfully collected information is inadmissible. Infrastructure
to jam cellular and GPS exist. I anticipate drone interception 
capabilities, with the state having an edge over the citizens.
Sufficiently punitive legislation and interception capabilities
will take care of the rest.

On the other hand, the Pirate Party got 7.4% in Saarland today.
 
> Technology like this is going to make it really difficult for multiple
> governments to continue to function independently. I am guessing that
> we're headed for a one world government IF the populace is going to
> continue to insist on privacy... but I don't know that the populace
> will insist on that. The next generation is just giving away their
> secrets on Facebook as though they have no value whatsoever. And I

Won't they be surprised when they try to go underground, and the
black vans will get them in their underwear.

> care a lot less about privacy than the generation before me... so
> maybe the one world government can be prevented. Maybe.
> 
> >> This new data center is less than ten miles from my house. I had heard
> >> only the lightest whispers of such a thing going in. There are a lot
> >> of construction activities in the area right now, so it's not hard to
> >> believe that it got lost in the noise.
> >
> > I wonder why they let Bamford get away with it year after year.
> > I understand he has some fans in the agency, and since he's not
> > getting any info on the really juicy stuff keeping the agency
> > in the press makes sense. It's hard to justify your budget if
> > you're not there.
> 
> Freedom of the press? I think it's in some barely consequential

Doesn't apply to whistleblowers.

http://www.harpers.org/archive/2011/06/hbc-90008114

> document referred to as "The Constitution"... but we'll probably not
> pay much attention to that in the future if current trends hold.

"Probably"? "future"? We do not seem to be living in the same reality.


From eugen at leitl.org  Mon Mar 26 09:39:28 2012
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 11:39:28 +0200
Subject: [ExI] experiment regarding ethical behaviors vs status: was	RE:
	Will robot cars be TOO good?
In-Reply-To: <003e01cd0abe$542669c0$fc733d40$@att.net>
References: <003e01cd0abe$542669c0$fc733d40$@att.net>
Message-ID: <20120326093928.GU17245@leitl.org>

On Sun, Mar 25, 2012 at 12:34:42PM -0700, spike wrote:

> I might be imagining it, but I feel like I have observed that there a lot of
> Porsche and Beemer drivers who are over-represented among the defectors.
> Those particular makes stick in my mind; in general it seems like sporty
> German cars are way over-represented in the defector class.  This defies
> intuition, for one would think the driver in the ratty old pickup with the

I'm surprised you find it surprising.

http://www.latimes.com/news/science/la-sci-0228-greed-20120228,0,5965885.story

Wealthy, motivated by greed, are more likely to cheat, study finds

People of higher status are more prone to cheating, taking candy from children and failing to wait their turn at four-way stops, a UC Berkeley experiment finds.

Study

A study found that people behind the wheels of the priciest cars were four times as likely as drivers of the least expensive cars to enter the intersection when they didn't have the right of way. (Don Kelsen / Los Angeles Times)

By Eryn Brown, Los Angeles Times

February 27, 2012, 7:07 p.m.
The rich really are different from the rest of us, scientists have found ? they are more apt to commit unethical acts because they are more motivated by greed.

People driving expensive cars were more likely than other motorists to cut off drivers and pedestrians at a four-way-stop intersection in the San Francisco Bay Area, UC Berkeley researchers observed. Those findings led to a series of experiments that revealed that people of higher socioeconomic status were also more likely to cheat to win a prize, take candy from children and say they would pocket extra change handed to them in error rather than give it back.

Because rich people have more financial resources, they're less dependent on social bonds for survival, the Berkeley researchers reported Monday in Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences. As a result, their self-interest reigns and they have fewer qualms about breaking the rules.

"If you occupy a more insular world, you're less likely to be sensitive to the needs of others," said study lead author Paul Piff, who is studying for a doctorate in psychology.

But before those in the so-called 99% start feeling ethically superior, consider this: Piff and his colleagues also discovered that anyone's ethical standards could be prone to slip if they suddenly won the lottery and joined the top 1%.

"There is a strong notion that when people don't have much, they're really looking out for themselves and they might act unethically," said Scott Wiltermuth, who researches social status at USC's Marshall School of Business and wasn't involved in the study. "But actually, it's the upper-class people that are less likely to see that people around them need help ? and therefore act unethically."

In earlier studies, Piff documented that wealthy people were less likely to act generously than relatively impoverished people. With this research, he hoped to find out whether wealthy people would also prioritize self-interest if it meant breaking the rules.

The driving experiments offered a way to test the hypothesis "naturalistically," he said. Trained observers hid near a downtown Berkeley intersection and noted the makes, model years and conditions of bypassing cars. Then they recorded whether drivers waited their turn.

It turned out that people behind the wheels of the priciest cars were four times as likely as drivers of the least expensive cars to enter the intersection when they didn't have the right of way. The discrepancy was even greater when it came to a pedestrian trying to exercise a right of way.

There is a significant correlation between the price of a car and the social class of its driver, Piff said. Still, how fancy a car looks isn't a perfect indicator of wealth.

So back in the laboratory, Piff and his colleagues conducted five more tests to measure unethical behavior ? and to connect that behavior to underlying attitudes toward greed.

For instance, the team used a standard questionnaire to get college students to assess their own socioeconomic status and asked how likely subjects were to behave unethically in eight different scenarios.

In one of the quandaries, students were asked to imagine that they bought coffee and a muffin with a $10 bill but were handed change for a $20. Would they keep the money?

In another hypothetical scenario, students realized their professor made a mistake in grading an exam and gave them an A instead of the B they deserved. Would they ask for a grade change?

The patterns from the road held true in the lab ? those most willing to engage in unethical behavior were the ones with the highest social status.

One possible explanation was that wealthy people are simply more willing to acknowledge their selfish side. But that wasn't the issue here. When test subjects of any status were asked to imagine themselves at a high social rank, they helped themselves to more candies from a jar they were told was meant for children in another lab.

Another experiment recruited people from Craigslist to play a "game of chance" that the researchers had rigged. People who reported higher social class were more likely to have favorable attitudes toward greed ? and were more likely to cheat at the game.

"The patterns were just so consistent," Piff said. "It was very, very compelling."

Piff, who is writing a paper about attitudes toward the Occupy movement, said that his team had been accused of waging class warfare from time to time.

"Berkeley has a certain reputation, so yeah, we get that," he said.

But rather than vilify the wealthy, Piff said, he hopes his work leads to policies that help bridge the gap between the haves and have-nots.

Acts as simple as watching a movie about childhood poverty seem to encourage people of all classes to help others in need, he said.

eryn.brown at latimes.com 


From pharos at gmail.com  Mon Mar 26 09:54:02 2012
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 10:54:02 +0100
Subject: [ExI] experiment regarding ethical behaviors vs status: was RE:
 Will robot cars be TOO good?
In-Reply-To: <20120326093928.GU17245@leitl.org>
References: <003e01cd0abe$542669c0$fc733d40$@att.net>
 <20120326093928.GU17245@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <CAL_armjEzgp2NFM+MtXtwgU4i6nY8VbfY+xG48aUeSCFYxzUbw@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Mar 26, 2012 at 10:39 AM, Eugen Leitl wrote:
> I'm surprised you find it surprising.
>
> http://www.latimes.com/news/science/la-sci-0228-greed-20120228,0,5965885.story
>
> Wealthy, motivated by greed, are more likely to cheat, study finds
>
> People of higher status are more prone to cheating, taking candy from children and failing to wait their
> turn at four-way stops, a UC Berkeley experiment finds.
>
> A study found that people behind the wheels of the priciest cars were four times as likely as drivers of the
> least expensive cars to enter the intersection when they didn't have the right of way.
>
>


Hey!  What about the supposed 'trickle-down' effect?

Aren't the rich guys supposed to contribute very generously to
charities to replace government welfare programs hated by everyone who
doesn't benefit from them?


BillK


From anders at aleph.se  Mon Mar 26 09:58:46 2012
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 10:58:46 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Hungry? Then place an order with,"TacoCopter!"
In-Reply-To: <CAGSKFy3LNrBDy2-bALBL2AgAAYfNyUDV6nSxWnqHzy_Otarsbg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGSKFy1ybbpzXpOXmJi_VBQC7p2qpw-F-ZJ3AKnvZ6103CP-Pw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRLxZjceoMY7QJ=HYg+05Yo+np20V500UOY3SbseJE00A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGSKFy3LNrBDy2-bALBL2AgAAYfNyUDV6nSxWnqHzy_Otarsbg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4F703DD6.8030704@aleph.se>

On 26/03/2012 03:24, John Grigg wrote:
> On Sun, Mar 25, 2012 at 5:44 PM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com 
> <mailto:atymes at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>     Sadly, it is a hoax.
>
>     http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2402069,00.asp
>
> Well, it should be true!
>
It might be coming true. I met one of the guys behind this at a TEDx:

http://matternet.net/

Their first step is medical samples and supplies, and then they 
hope/plan to scale up to a literal packet switching network across rural 
Africa.

-- 
Anders Sandberg,
Future of Humanity Institute
Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University

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From eugen at leitl.org  Mon Mar 26 10:17:33 2012
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 12:17:33 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Record-breaking laser pulse boosts fusion power hopes
In-Reply-To: <CAOJFdb+DHjABuKuh841CseOiNJrNhmm6Fx-NEe9Zzjg_KRqL8A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPoR7a7Bdy3Dm9sM+u9aNtJwJo_ijfJEjdi5C57drf=Ogd349Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOJFdb+DHjABuKuh841CseOiNJrNhmm6Fx-NEe9Zzjg_KRqL8A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120326101733.GW17245@leitl.org>

On Sun, Mar 25, 2012 at 05:31:07PM -0400, Mike Dougherty wrote:
> 2012/3/25 Stefano Vaj <stefano.vaj at gmail.com>:
> > Hey, I like my tokamaks like the next guy, but...
> >
> > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/03/23/nif_laser_pulse/
> 
> Do we know how much energy it takes to light a fusion reaction?

3.5 MeV for D-T fusion. 1 eV=1.6*10^-19 J


From pharos at gmail.com  Mon Mar 26 10:21:32 2012
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 11:21:32 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Hungry? Then place an order with,"TacoCopter!"
In-Reply-To: <4F703DD6.8030704@aleph.se>
References: <CAGSKFy1ybbpzXpOXmJi_VBQC7p2qpw-F-ZJ3AKnvZ6103CP-Pw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRLxZjceoMY7QJ=HYg+05Yo+np20V500UOY3SbseJE00A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGSKFy3LNrBDy2-bALBL2AgAAYfNyUDV6nSxWnqHzy_Otarsbg@mail.gmail.com>
 <4F703DD6.8030704@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <CAL_armhYozx14ydPPiPrh8er_7TFmy+AxDrwbqX377pV=qs5Fw@mail.gmail.com>

2012/3/26 Anders Sandberg wrote:
> It might be coming true. I met one of the guys behind this at a TEDx:
>
> http://matternet.net/
>
> Their first step is medical samples and supplies, and then they hope/plan to
> scale up to a literal packet switching network across rural Africa.
>
>


The army is already doing this with full sized unmanned helicopters
resupplying troops.

<http://www.military.com/news/article/marine-corps-news/unmanned-helo-makes-first-delivery-to-marines.html>

Unmanned Helo Makes First Delivery to Marines
December 27, 2011
Marine Corps News|by Cpl. Justin M. Boling

CAMP DWYER, Afghanistan -- Unmanned systems have revolutionized combat
aviation, providing a colossal advantage in the fight against terror
with surveillance and close-air support.

Recently, a detachment of Marines from Marine Unmanned Aerial Vehicle
Squadron 1 in Afghanistan added aerial resupply to the list of UAV
capabilities.

The detachment completed its first unmanned aerial system cargo
delivery in a combat zone using a helicopter in Afghanistan, Dec. 17
------------------------


Another example of technology developed for war use being reused by the public?


BillK


From eugen at leitl.org  Mon Mar 26 10:27:15 2012
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 12:27:15 +0200
Subject: [ExI] 5th Grade Science Fair -- Evolution
In-Reply-To: <CAPy8RwatZ_Rtrg5F-fODYHZE8_DnJcU+EGtB8ODY3ZnaAo2-7g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPy8RwacbOK+NMwErk9xLKWK=LjJMJfePfPd_SKUN728o7-oYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <00e401cd0a4b$29a77e00$7cf67a00$@att.net> <4F6EB801.9080006@canonizer.com>
 <011b01cd0a99$7bf43b50$73dcb1f0$@att.net>
 <CAL+RtPfzvwU1KFTznmfGMuXMKZ8iq9CjcLTT9yRGKtrhcMts0A@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <20120326102715.GB17245@leitl.org>

On Sun, Mar 25, 2012 at 05:17:29PM -0600, Kelly Anderson wrote:
> 2012/3/25 Giovanni Santostasi <gsantostasi at gmail.com>:
> > Do you buy the flies from a biological supplier?
> 
> I bought them online, the Commercial Size... You could buy a smaller
> kit, but I wanted enough stuff to go multiple generations.
> http://www.buyfruitflies.com/shop_culturekit.html

Notice that what you're doing is exactly the thing which
would happen to self-rep systems capable of leaving the
solar system.

Consider a series of dishes with sterilized drosophila food,
in a tunnel many megameters long. The first flies to emerge 
from the other end are nothing like what you put in first.


From anders at aleph.se  Mon Mar 26 10:31:20 2012
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 11:31:20 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Hungry? Then place an order with,"TacoCopter!"
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armhYozx14ydPPiPrh8er_7TFmy+AxDrwbqX377pV=qs5Fw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGSKFy1ybbpzXpOXmJi_VBQC7p2qpw-F-ZJ3AKnvZ6103CP-Pw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRLxZjceoMY7QJ=HYg+05Yo+np20V500UOY3SbseJE00A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGSKFy3LNrBDy2-bALBL2AgAAYfNyUDV6nSxWnqHzy_Otarsbg@mail.gmail.com>
 <4F703DD6.8030704@aleph.se>
 <CAL_armhYozx14ydPPiPrh8er_7TFmy+AxDrwbqX377pV=qs5Fw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4F704578.5050506@aleph.se>

One thing I would be very interested in is some estimates of the cost 
trends. Obviously they are going down, and the Matternet people are 
likely betting they will be going down at a Kurzweilian rate, but does 
anybody have numbers?

I would assume a quadcopter has the following costs:
Batteries (might not be getting cheaper fast)
Control electronics (getting very cheap very fast)
Motors (price set by magnets?)
Blades and chassi (set by manufacturing run size?)
Energy to recharge (solar cells, getting mildly cheaper)

If even one of these remains high enough, then the concept will just 
remain in high margin or hobby activity.

-- 
Anders Sandberg,
Future of Humanity Institute
Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University



From pharos at gmail.com  Mon Mar 26 10:45:47 2012
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 11:45:47 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Hungry? Then place an order with,"TacoCopter!"
In-Reply-To: <4F704578.5050506@aleph.se>
References: <CAGSKFy1ybbpzXpOXmJi_VBQC7p2qpw-F-ZJ3AKnvZ6103CP-Pw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRLxZjceoMY7QJ=HYg+05Yo+np20V500UOY3SbseJE00A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGSKFy3LNrBDy2-bALBL2AgAAYfNyUDV6nSxWnqHzy_Otarsbg@mail.gmail.com>
 <4F703DD6.8030704@aleph.se>
 <CAL_armhYozx14ydPPiPrh8er_7TFmy+AxDrwbqX377pV=qs5Fw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4F704578.5050506@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <CAL_armg-XHRzZxtTgrry6vEXfDd8HO+J+EKo_2ofx--XGUpaJw@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Mar 26, 2012 at 11:31 AM, Anders Sandberg wrote:
> One thing I would be very interested in is some estimates of the cost
> trends. Obviously they are going down, and the Matternet people are likely
> betting they will be going down at a Kurzweilian rate, but does anybody have
> numbers?
>
> I would assume a quadcopter has the following costs:
> Batteries (might not be getting cheaper fast)
> Control electronics (getting very cheap very fast)
> Motors (price set by magnets?)
> Blades and chassi (set by manufacturing run size?)
> Energy to recharge (solar cells, getting mildly cheaper)
>
> If even one of these remains high enough, then the concept will just remain
> in high margin or hobby activity.
>
>


I think you will find that the mini quadcopters only have a flight
time of 10 to 15 minutes. Maybe 20 minutes with a large battery and
less payload. So a better power source would be a good idea.

Bigger UAVs with bigger engines and bigger payloads are probably more
realistic at present.


BillK


From eugen at leitl.org  Mon Mar 26 10:46:37 2012
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 12:46:37 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Hungry? Then place an order with,"TacoCopter!"
In-Reply-To: <4F704578.5050506@aleph.se>
References: <CAGSKFy1ybbpzXpOXmJi_VBQC7p2qpw-F-ZJ3AKnvZ6103CP-Pw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRLxZjceoMY7QJ=HYg+05Yo+np20V500UOY3SbseJE00A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGSKFy3LNrBDy2-bALBL2AgAAYfNyUDV6nSxWnqHzy_Otarsbg@mail.gmail.com>
 <4F703DD6.8030704@aleph.se>
 <CAL_armhYozx14ydPPiPrh8er_7TFmy+AxDrwbqX377pV=qs5Fw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4F704578.5050506@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <20120326104637.GC17245@leitl.org>

On Mon, Mar 26, 2012 at 11:31:20AM +0100, Anders Sandberg wrote:

> I would assume a quadcopter has the following costs:
> Batteries (might not be getting cheaper fast)

Batteries are effectively static costs.

> Control electronics (getting very cheap very fast)
> Motors (price set by magnets?)

You don't have to have rare-earth magnets. 
I would be very interested to see what you could do
with metal-free motors (doped carbon nanotube or
graphene nano ribbons).

> Blades and chassi (set by manufacturing run size?)
> Energy to recharge (solar cells, getting mildly cheaper)

A good way to boost range would be to have PV panels with recharging
ports where drones can perch.

Unfortunately latter will be also useful for antipersonnel drones,
which can remain operational for years. Unlike kamikaze drones which
self-destroy a neurotoxin-dispensing drone could be good for hundreds or
thousands of kills, in an area of up to ~km.

> If even one of these remains high enough, then the concept will just  
> remain in high margin or hobby activity.


From eugen at leitl.org  Mon Mar 26 10:52:48 2012
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 12:52:48 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Hungry? Then place an order with,"TacoCopter!"
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armg-XHRzZxtTgrry6vEXfDd8HO+J+EKo_2ofx--XGUpaJw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGSKFy1ybbpzXpOXmJi_VBQC7p2qpw-F-ZJ3AKnvZ6103CP-Pw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRLxZjceoMY7QJ=HYg+05Yo+np20V500UOY3SbseJE00A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGSKFy3LNrBDy2-bALBL2AgAAYfNyUDV6nSxWnqHzy_Otarsbg@mail.gmail.com>
 <4F703DD6.8030704@aleph.se>
 <CAL_armhYozx14ydPPiPrh8er_7TFmy+AxDrwbqX377pV=qs5Fw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4F704578.5050506@aleph.se>
 <CAL_armg-XHRzZxtTgrry6vEXfDd8HO+J+EKo_2ofx--XGUpaJw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120326105248.GG17245@leitl.org>

On Mon, Mar 26, 2012 at 11:45:47AM +0100, BillK wrote:

> I think you will find that the mini quadcopters only have a flight
> time of 10 to 15 minutes. Maybe 20 minutes with a large battery and
> less payload. So a better power source would be a good idea.

PV arrays doubling as phased arrays, tracking a rectenna on the
quadcopter end.

They've already good distributed inverters (even with inductivities
instead of finicky caps), so making up a PV array with integrated
radiator appears easy enough.

This would scale for cargo and personal transport, if the ground 
density is sufficient so that you'll get smooth hand-off. 


From anders at aleph.se  Mon Mar 26 12:44:07 2012
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 13:44:07 +0100
Subject: [ExI] The NSA's new data center
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNQggXL-R64g64mwLKGeZgXw=Rjfo0dUYBP-iHggBUoREA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <201203172251.q2HMphhn024879@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <CAM5aL2dXQdi8Kdm+TkHPi6Rqzus0uB9c5xubvJB5rw544rd=0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a40aLY09gmJh8N59y08pWQ70V25ENaEdazTZRGmnumfSw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2fp77OtogSLfJ9s2wxKpuF1LnfS7yhfk8ZXnh2zUGrepA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a5F80+CXiinanZjTiBSKcWf7xNA3Vp_TuT0MLe2DsS=jw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4F6DBFE3.9070109@aleph.se>
 <201203241454.q2OEsBKv014861@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <20120324150522.GI9891@leitl.org>
 <201203241528.q2OFStlk023463@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <20120324154627.GL9891@leitl.org>
 <201203241613.q2OGDuc6013513@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <CAPoR7a4zAHiE-LZSqX4MZ7ZowN7gc5v4H-ATecs+dxFecosW7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <201203241725.q2OHP6Ve010600@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <CALAdGNQggXL-R64g64mwLKGeZgXw=Rjfo0dUYBP-iHggBUoREA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4F706497.4080804@aleph.se>

It is worth noticing that changing the budget assumptions by a factor of 
ten in my model only shifts the arrival dates by a few years. Eventually 
the Railroad Retirement Board might decide to put apart some of its 
budget for the task...


On 24/03/2012 18:34, Adrian Tymes wrote:
> Suggest this to any actual prison warden, and they'll point out 
> there's no way they'd have the budget for that. Some of this can be 
> argued as priorities - money goes to things that are important. But if 
> it really was that cheap to do complete surveillance, this wouldn't be 
> enough to rule it out. Conclusion: it is not, in fact, that cheap to 
> do complete surveillance, likely due either to costs not accounted for 
> or the assumption of more capital than is in fact available. 

It is not cheap or efficient to do total surveillance *yet*. When data 
processing, storage and analysis is expensive you cannot afford to do 
more than to focus on persons of interest, and you will have to throw 
away superfluous information because you cannot store it. As they get 
cheaper you still want to ignore noise and there might be legal 
constraints on who you are allowed to intercept, so you add filters. But 
eventually the cost of data gathering and storage will become small 
enough that it is cheaper to first get all data, and *then* filter out 
what you want from it.

I suspect that the expensive part will remain analysis. Sensors are 
getting cheaper as per Hendy's law by a factor of about 100 per decade; 
the Internet of Things will be an excellent surveillance tool paid for 
by consumers, and so on. Analysts are paid salaries and can only process 
a working day of information per day. The key factor influencing how 
efficient they can become is software support: automatic pattern 
matching, decision support, all sorts of AI apps - as they become 
better, then the same staff can do much more. So what I *really* would 
love to know (and my friends at IARPA will *never* tell me :-) ) is 
whether that software is showing exponential-ish improvement. I suspect, 
given current trends in language crunching, that this might be happening.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/05/science/05legal.html?pagewanted=all
This might not lead to better eventual decisions, but it might very well 
enable managing total surveillance on a limited staff budget.


-- 
Anders Sandberg,
Future of Humanity Institute
Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University



From anders at aleph.se  Mon Mar 26 12:54:50 2012
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 13:54:50 +0100
Subject: [ExI] The NSA's new data center
In-Reply-To: <20120325090553.GI9891@leitl.org>
References: <4F6DBFE3.9070109@aleph.se>
 <201203241454.q2OEsBKv014861@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <20120324150522.GI9891@leitl.org>
 <201203241528.q2OFStlk023463@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <20120324154627.GL9891@leitl.org>
 <201203241613.q2OGDuc6013513@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <CAPoR7a4zAHiE-LZSqX4MZ7ZowN7gc5v4H-ATecs+dxFecosW7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <201203241725.q2OHP6Ve010600@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <CALAdGNQggXL-R64g64mwLKGeZgXw=Rjfo0dUYBP-iHggBUoREA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPy8RwbtAVMNzqONE--hXciR7AAX3URP_pesFXHBRV5wc8uvWg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120325090553.GI9891@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <4F70671A.5060600@aleph.se>

On 25/03/2012 10:05, Eugen Leitl wrote:
> So you'll get seamless coverage of the back room deals in Washington? 
> I'm sure only Moore prevents us from being there. I'm sure the board 
> meetings won't mind a few perching quadcopters in there, either. 
> Transparency is good, after all. 

Any big surveillance operation is likely to gather this kind of 
information too. Current big surveillance systems most likely gather 
plenty of information about government and corporate activity as a side 
effect. They don't mean to, and I am certain members of Senate 
appropriations committees would not like being told that copies their 
emails and phonecalls are stored somewhere, but as I said in the other 
post, beyond a certain point selection becomes post-gathering rather 
than pre-gathering.

That said, I do not believe in technological determinism. Societies (and 
elites) can decide they do not want to have ubiqitious surveillance and 
take steps to prevent it. My initial analysis was more motivated by my 
interest in preventing hard totalitarianism than making predictions 
about when the NSA or BfV get 100% coverage.

However, the longer societies wait in deciding what they want, the less 
room to maneouver they have. Lots of boats might already have left - 
especially since powerful information assymetries also can exert policy 
capture.



-- 
Anders Sandberg,
Future of Humanity Institute
Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University



From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Mon Mar 26 14:25:52 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 16:25:52 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Record-breaking laser pulse boosts fusion power hopes
In-Reply-To: <20120326101733.GW17245@leitl.org>
References: <CAPoR7a7Bdy3Dm9sM+u9aNtJwJo_ijfJEjdi5C57drf=Ogd349Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOJFdb+DHjABuKuh841CseOiNJrNhmm6Fx-NEe9Zzjg_KRqL8A@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120326101733.GW17245@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a4TWhbyNXdAu5hkRVjp5WVrthumL4C+MXYH21BjwXACVg@mail.gmail.com>

On 26 March 2012 12:17, Eugen Leitl <eugen at leitl.org> wrote:

> 3.5 MeV for D-T fusion. 1 eV=1.6*10^-19 J
>

Hey, what a coincidence. That is *exactly* what I generate when I ride my
cyclette... :-)

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From pharos at gmail.com  Mon Mar 26 14:39:23 2012
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 15:39:23 +0100
Subject: [ExI] The NSA's new data center
In-Reply-To: <20120326085242.GL17245@leitl.org>
References: <20120324150522.GI9891@leitl.org>
 <201203241528.q2OFStlk023463@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <20120324154627.GL9891@leitl.org>
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 <CAPoR7a4zAHiE-LZSqX4MZ7ZowN7gc5v4H-ATecs+dxFecosW7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <201203241725.q2OHP6Ve010600@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
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 <20120326085242.GL17245@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <CAL_armhBsAwmZ228ShtGvHfBngd0mYNj8_4c3sZFvHf0UPuQ-A@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Mar 26, 2012 at 9:52 AM, Eugen Leitl wrote:
<snip>
>> document referred to as "The Constitution"... but we'll probably not
>> pay much attention to that in the future if current trends hold.
>
> "Probably"? "future"? We do not seem to be living in the same reality.
> _______________________________________________
>


Did somebody mention the Constitution?

?Everything that Richard Nixon did to me, for which he faced
impeachment and prosecution, which led to his resignation, is now
legal under the Patriot Act, the FISA [Foreign Intelligence
Surveillance Act] amendment act, the National Defense Authorization
Act,? Ellsberg told me late Friday afternoon when we met in Princeton,
N.J.

Remember Daniel Ellsberg?  The Pentagon Papers scandal - 1971?


<http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article30797.htm>


BillK



From pharos at gmail.com  Mon Mar 26 14:47:42 2012
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 15:47:42 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Record-breaking laser pulse boosts fusion power hopes
In-Reply-To: <CAPoR7a4TWhbyNXdAu5hkRVjp5WVrthumL4C+MXYH21BjwXACVg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPoR7a7Bdy3Dm9sM+u9aNtJwJo_ijfJEjdi5C57drf=Ogd349Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOJFdb+DHjABuKuh841CseOiNJrNhmm6Fx-NEe9Zzjg_KRqL8A@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120326101733.GW17245@leitl.org>
 <CAPoR7a4TWhbyNXdAu5hkRVjp5WVrthumL4C+MXYH21BjwXACVg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armh9OoFng_HVUW+OxMebow8i1iyUUGrbvrvoUnE4eE8v4Q@mail.gmail.com>

2012/3/26 Stefano Vaj wrote:
> On 26 March 2012 12:17, Eugen Leitl <eugen at leitl.org> wrote:
>> 3.5 MeV for D-T fusion. 1 eV=1.6*10^-19 J
>
> Hey, what a coincidence. That is *exactly* what I generate when I ride my
> cyclette... :-)
>


I think 'cyclette' could be either a bicycle or a home exercise cycle.

I'd go for an exercise bike as Stefano is obviously powering his
mansion from it.  ;)


BillK


From spike66 at att.net  Mon Mar 26 15:27:48 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 08:27:48 -0700
Subject: [ExI] experiment regarding ethical behaviors vs status
Message-ID: <000001cd0b65$002e7720$008b6560$@att.net>


DOH!  Rookie error on my part.   Read on.

On Sun, Mar 25, 2012 at 12:34:42PM -0700, spike wrote:

>> ...I might be imagining it, but I feel like I have observed that there a  lot of Porsche and Beemer drivers who are over-represented among the defectors...

>...I'm surprised you find it surprising.

>...http://www.latimes.com/news/science/la-sci-0228-greed-20120228,0,5965885.story

>...Wealthy, motivated by greed, are more likely to cheat, study finds

>...People of higher status are more prone to cheating, taking candy from children and failing to wait their turn at four-way stops, a UC Berkeley experiment finds...

What I realized is that the Berkeley study did not show that higher status people are more dishonest.  It showed that those who self-identify as higher status are more dishonest.  What we are still missing is the correlation between status and self-identification of status.  

I thought it remarkable that Berkeley (with that reputation of liberal) would produce the two studies, the first demonstrating a general positive correlation between liberalism and higher economic status, the second claiming a general positive correlation between higher status and dishonesty.  If liberal equals richer and richer equals dishonest, then liberal equals dishonest.

But both they and I made the same rookie error.  It established the dishonesty of the test  subjects with the test, then took their word for it about their economic status.  If they have already established they are lying on the test, why would we then assume they tell the truth about their money?  This studies do not prove that liberal equals dishonest.  The title of the article was "Shame on the Rich."  It should have been "Shame on Berkeley."

I made the same mistake when I assumed the racy Beemer drivers are of higher economic status.  We have no way of knowing how rich they are or how much they earn by what they drive.  In these low interest times, anyone with an ordinary job can drive any high-end sports car.  The super-rich would be unlikely to call attention to themselves by driving flashy cars.  Those who do not own a home would be more likely to compensate and attempt to appear richer by driving a status symbol.

Back during the peak of the craziness in the valley in 1999, companies were awash in cash from people wanting IPOs and not wanting dividends.  The prevailing theory was that any company making an actual profit was growing slower than it could have, had it reinvested its dividends and profits, and was therefore less desirable, so do not buy any successful company.  Companies had more cash than they could use, and in general paid their people in stock options.  So they bought flashy German sports cars and attracted talent by offering them corporate rides.  The top CEOs would get BMW 750s, with the 12 thirsty cylinders and every luxury in their James Bond-mobile.  The lower level software management types would get a mere 8 cylinder German muscle car.  It motivated everyone in a weird sort of way, and gave a visible sign of rank, vaguely analogous to how the military puts stripes on the sleeve or brass on the shoulder.

Of course most of these ended up broke, for the stock options ended up worthless, yet the recipients often had to pay taxes based on the value of the options when they were issued.   So in this particular case, not only is there little correlation between economic status and the cost of the car, there might be a negative correlation.

The Berkeley study missed all this, and so did I.

spike 





...

"The patterns were just so consistent," Piff said. "It was very, very compelling."

Piff, who is writing a paper about attitudes toward the Occupy movement, said that his team had been accused of waging class warfare from time to time.

"Berkeley has a certain reputation, so yeah, we get that," he said.

But rather than vilify the wealthy, Piff said, he hopes his work leads to policies that help bridge the gap between the haves and have-nots.

Acts as simple as watching a movie about childhood poverty seem to encourage people of all classes to help others in need, he said.

eryn.brown at latimes.com
_______________________________________________






From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Mon Mar 26 16:47:38 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 18:47:38 +0200
Subject: [ExI] experiment regarding ethical behaviors vs status:
In-Reply-To: <1332721717.43388.YahooMailNeo@web164503.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <003e01cd0abe$542669c0$fc733d40$@att.net>
 <1332721717.43388.YahooMailNeo@web164503.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a7e6kfQO+kVW760yB6_NguiyPKktsegYPphixREjEXP-w@mail.gmail.com>

On 26 March 2012 02:28, The Avantguardian <avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com>wrote:

> So society deems cannibalism acceptable under duress but evil when at
> leisure.
>

Actually, in anthropological terms, several societies admit or encorage
cannibalism, but almost invariably it has therein a ritual and symbolic,
rather than nutritional, purpose.

As mentioned another time, in fact, to eat members of your own species is a
good idea only inasmuch as their meat is perfectly sterile or you do not
have any other choice.

OTOH, I am not aware that widespread ethical systems have much to say on
the subject unless you do that deliberately in order to express contempt
for the deceased, to desecrate his or her corpse, etc.

It does not defy my intuition at all. People don't achieve status by being
> nice, they achieve status two ways: by being ruthless or by inheriting it
> from somebody who was.


Mmhhh. Sociability and popularity and empathy and ability to cooperate in
the group's shared interests against other groups may actually be a part of
the cocktail - unless and until they do not detract to other more important
factors. :-)

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Mon Mar 26 17:46:36 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 19:46:36 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Record-breaking laser pulse boosts fusion power hopes
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armh9OoFng_HVUW+OxMebow8i1iyUUGrbvrvoUnE4eE8v4Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPoR7a7Bdy3Dm9sM+u9aNtJwJo_ijfJEjdi5C57drf=Ogd349Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOJFdb+DHjABuKuh841CseOiNJrNhmm6Fx-NEe9Zzjg_KRqL8A@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAPoR7a7AdMZ9oTydTpKySNs5TtOzD+iysj0v5jhYMRxk4gyeTQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 26 March 2012 16:47, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:

> I think 'cyclette' could be either a bicycle or a home exercise cycle.
>

Ah, yes. It used to be somebody's trademark once upon a time, but it became
vulgarised by now in Italian for "exercise, stationary bicycle".

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From spike66 at att.net  Mon Mar 26 17:51:08 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 10:51:08 -0700
Subject: [ExI] experiment regarding ethical behaviors vs status:
In-Reply-To: <CAPoR7a7e6kfQO+kVW760yB6_NguiyPKktsegYPphixREjEXP-w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <003e01cd0abe$542669c0$fc733d40$@att.net>
 <1332721717.43388.YahooMailNeo@web164503.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
 <CAPoR7a7e6kfQO+kVW760yB6_NguiyPKktsegYPphixREjEXP-w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <008e01cd0b79$065a1e10$130e5a30$@att.net>

.

>.It does not defy my intuition at all. People don't achieve status by being
nice, they achieve status two ways: by being ruthless or by inheriting it
from somebody who was. 





This isn't what the study shows however.  Correlating anything with economic
status derived from self-identified economic status is an unreasonable
extrapolation, and is misleading, untrustworthy.  However it does suggest
some interesting studies.  I can imagine an effect where the physical
attractiveness of the test administrators directly impacts the delta between
a test subject's economic status and the subject's self-identified economic
status.

 

Note that in every case where sociological studies are done, they are
*always* studying something else besides the overt subject.  An apparent IQ
test for instance, might actually be studying the correlation between the
test subjects' shoe style and the probability that the test subjects will
keep or return the pen offered for them to take the test.  This covert
deception is a requirement actually, for the subjects and test
administrators would otherwise impact the variable under study.  This is the
sociologists' equivalent to the medical community's double blind test.  So:
all sociologist are liars, by requirement.  This is harsh of course: we
don't like to think of car sales staff, advertising agents and lawyers as
professional liars, they merely present a client in the best available light
while telling the truth.

 

Of course if the test administrators and test subjects are told nothing,
then we do not lie.

 

Back to my suggested example.  We do a test where we are apparently testing
for IQ, political attitudes, or clothing style preferences for instance.  We
don't actually tell them this is what we are studying, rather we let the
test subjects assume whatever they infer, for I want to be an honest amateur
sociologist.  Then without telling either the test administrators or the
test subjects, we study their self-identified economic status with the
physical attractiveness of the test administrator, under the theory that
perhaps we unwittingly pose as more economically healthy in the presence of
an attractive potential mate.  This is tricky, for even the test
administrators cannot know what we are really studying.  (Otherwise, try to
imagine explaining, "Miss Goodbody, you are to be the foxy babe test
administrator, and Miss Flabbercrombie you are to work with the control
group.")

 

Now we can measure the amount of dishonesty more directly by comparing the
self-identified economic status of the test subjects with their own answers
on the other test.  We do not need, nor can we even find out, their actual
economic status.  But we can compare their answers with themselves.  Theory:
in the presence of Miss Goodbody, we will stand up straighter, comb our hair
more carefully, and possibly even imagine ourselves economically healthier
than we do in the presence of Miss Flabbercrombie.

 

Here's one signal that seems to always shine through: headlines explaining a
study will always distort by oversimplification the real findings of a
study.  In this case, the headline was "Shame on the Rich."  The study
didn't say "Shame on Those Who Self-Identify as Rich."

 

spike

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From spike66 at att.net  Mon Mar 26 18:44:09 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 11:44:09 -0700
Subject: [ExI] experiment regarding ethical behaviors vs status:
In-Reply-To: <008e01cd0b79$065a1e10$130e5a30$@att.net>
References: <003e01cd0abe$542669c0$fc733d40$@att.net>
 <1332721717.43388.YahooMailNeo@web164503.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
 <CAPoR7a7e6kfQO+kVW760yB6_NguiyPKktsegYPphixREjEXP-w@mail.gmail.com>
 <008e01cd0b79$065a1e10$130e5a30$@att.net>
Message-ID: <00b401cd0b80$6e67aca0$4b3705e0$@att.net>

 

 

From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of spike
.

>.Here's one signal that seems to always shine through: headlines explaining
a study will always distort by oversimplification the real findings of a
study.  In this case, the headline was "Shame on the Rich."  The study
didn't say "Shame on Those Who Self-Identify as Rich."  Spike

 

 

 

I also noticed the test designer and interpreter was quite up front about
his own political views, clearly stated at the bottom of the article:

 

"The patterns were just so consistent," Piff said. "It was very, very
compelling."

 

Piff, who is writing a paper about attitudes toward the Occupy movement,
said that his team had been accused of waging class warfare from time to
time.

 

"Berkeley has a certain reputation, so yeah, we get that," he said.

 

But rather than vilify the wealthy, Piff said, he hopes his work leads to
policies that help bridge the gap between the haves and have-nots.

 

Acts as simple as watching a movie about childhood poverty seem to encourage
people of all classes to help others in need, he said.

 

 

 

OK then, bridge the gaps between the haves and the have-nots.  Apparently
Piff is discounting the existing bridge: jobs.  The haves hire the
have-nots.  The language is quite clear, the sociologist had an agenda:
"Piff said he hopes his work leads to policies."  

 

Conclusion: this study is not scientific, but rather it joins evolution and
global warming as two fields of science hopeless mired in a morass of
political notions unrelated to the subject of the study.  Such a shame.  If
there is any redeeming quality, it is that at least the investigator was
honest, right up front about his own political agenda.

 

spike

 

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From anders at aleph.se  Mon Mar 26 22:16:27 2012
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 23:16:27 +0100
Subject: [ExI] experiment regarding ethical behaviors vs status
In-Reply-To: <000001cd0b65$002e7720$008b6560$@att.net>
References: <000001cd0b65$002e7720$008b6560$@att.net>
Message-ID: <4F70EABB.5050708@aleph.se>

Feeling you have power over other people may cause various cognitive 
biases.

http://www.aleph.se/andart/archives/2009/08/power_biases.html
http://www.aleph.se/andart/archives/2007/02/how_power_corrupts.html

It makes your ethical thinking more rule based than outcome biased, 
moves your thinking towards a more abstract level and increases 
stereotyping of other people. Power-primed people more often assumed 
other people had the same information as they did (the "telepathic boss" 
problem), and were less good at judging emotional expression.

Note that 'feeling' is the operative word: in the studies analysing 
this, the bias was activated by writing a one page essay about "a time 
when I held power over other people".

So here is my counter-theory: maybe bad behavior from drivers of 
expensive cars is partially due to the car itself acting as a power-cue.

-- 
Anders Sandberg,
Future of Humanity Institute
Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University



From spike66 at att.net  Mon Mar 26 22:33:06 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 15:33:06 -0700
Subject: [ExI] experiment regarding ethical behaviors vs status
In-Reply-To: <4F70EABB.5050708@aleph.se>
References: <000001cd0b65$002e7720$008b6560$@att.net>
 <4F70EABB.5050708@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <005e01cd0ba0$6a7640a0$3f62c1e0$@att.net>


>... On Behalf Of Anders Sandberg
...

>...So here is my counter-theory: maybe bad behavior from drivers of
expensive cars is partially due to the car itself acting as a power-cue.  --
Anders Sandberg,


Ja, could be that, but I have a still simpler notion.  It could be that the
zippy German sports cars are easier to maneuver into a small gap in traffic.
Being fast accelerators, fast stoppers and precise handlers, they can
accurately shoot for any car-length gap, where the pokey long pickup needs
to act a little more deliberately.

Here's an observation that might be helpful.  Back in the 70s, it was noted
that the minority neighborhood residents loved flashy expensive status-y
cars.  Cadillacs were the prized possessions.  There were many theories on
this, having to do with wanting to display wealth and so on.  

In 1973, when the Middle East oil embargo started, the local car dealers
were able to convince the proles that a huge war over oil was about to start
and that gasoline would be over a dollar a gallon etc.  People traded their
Caddies and Lincolns for little Japanese four cylinders.  Suddenly the big
status car was no longer the huge Cadillac, but rather the high-end German
sports car, the Porsche and the sporty Mercedes, which at least could get 15
miles per gallon, but when that happened, we noticed something strange.  The
minority neighborhood demonstrated exactly zero interest in the small
expensive cars.  They wanted the really big, suddenly inexpensive Caddies
and Lincolns.

My conclusion is that they never wanted expensive cars per se, rather they
wanted big cars.  They were perfectly happy if the cost went down, for it
was never about status, rather it was always about size.  Reason: in the
minority neighborhood, they tended to be big people with big families.

Likewise the zippy German sports cars race up front and cut in, not because
they have a 'tude, but rather just because they can.

spike



From eugen at leitl.org  Tue Mar 27 06:27:59 2012
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 08:27:59 +0200
Subject: [ExI] experiment regarding ethical behaviors vs status
In-Reply-To: <005e01cd0ba0$6a7640a0$3f62c1e0$@att.net>
References: <000001cd0b65$002e7720$008b6560$@att.net>
 <4F70EABB.5050708@aleph.se> <005e01cd0ba0$6a7640a0$3f62c1e0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <20120327062758.GX17245@leitl.org>

On Mon, Mar 26, 2012 at 03:33:06PM -0700, spike wrote:

> Likewise the zippy German sports cars race up front and cut in, not because
> they have a 'tude, but rather just because they can.

Yes, and rich people are dicks. Just because they can.


From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Tue Mar 27 09:41:34 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 11:41:34 +0200
Subject: [ExI] The NSA's new data center
In-Reply-To: <4F70671A.5060600@aleph.se>
References: <4F6DBFE3.9070109@aleph.se>
 <201203241454.q2OEsBKv014861@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <20120324150522.GI9891@leitl.org>
 <201203241528.q2OFStlk023463@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
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 <CAPoR7a4zAHiE-LZSqX4MZ7ZowN7gc5v4H-ATecs+dxFecosW7g@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAPoR7a4TKNAe6wyGXJcMjG-+7BxX+6usjxkV-Oiy3DE58mr4qA@mail.gmail.com>

On 26 March 2012 14:54, Anders Sandberg <anders at aleph.se> wrote:

> That said, I do not believe in technological determinism. Societies (and
> elites) can decide they do not want to have ubiqitious surveillance and
> take steps to prevent it.
>

Yes, but it is going to be an arm race, and measures to prevent
surveillance are going to become ever more complicate and expensive. This
is why I expect the pendulum to swing back to the "normal" state of things
where in human societies privacy is the exception, not the rule.

In the meantime, I welcome the spreading of a security culture but not the
enactment of privacy regulations which only increase informational
asymmetries and social control in favour of governments in place.

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From eugen at leitl.org  Tue Mar 27 09:57:23 2012
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 11:57:23 +0200
Subject: [ExI] The NSA's new data center
In-Reply-To: <CAPoR7a4TKNAe6wyGXJcMjG-+7BxX+6usjxkV-Oiy3DE58mr4qA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <201203241528.q2OFStlk023463@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <20120324154627.GL9891@leitl.org>
 <201203241613.q2OGDuc6013513@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <CAPoR7a4zAHiE-LZSqX4MZ7ZowN7gc5v4H-ATecs+dxFecosW7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <201203241725.q2OHP6Ve010600@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <CALAdGNQggXL-R64g64mwLKGeZgXw=Rjfo0dUYBP-iHggBUoREA@mail.gmail.com>
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 <20120325090553.GI9891@leitl.org> <4F70671A.5060600@aleph.se>
 <CAPoR7a4TKNAe6wyGXJcMjG-+7BxX+6usjxkV-Oiy3DE58mr4qA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120327095723.GC17245@leitl.org>

On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 11:41:34AM +0200, Stefano Vaj wrote:

> In the meantime, I welcome the spreading of a security culture but not the
> enactment of privacy regulations which only increase informational
> asymmetries and social control in favour of governments in place.

The centralist high-expert-power surveillance approach will always 
beat decentralist many-shallow-eyeballs sousveillance approach.

This is basic infrastructure: if you can vaccuum up the entire
Internet you can collect it centrally, and process it in an
expensive, tightly coupled large scale facility using top of 
the line data mining algorithms, many of them/their implementations 
classified. 

This is why we need rigid laws protecting privacy. Technology
cannot route around broken politics.

As most people here are aware US has basically zero information
privacy laws. This is causing an increasing impedance mismatch in 
transatlantic dealings.


From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 27 11:19:36 2012
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 04:19:36 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] experiment regarding ethical behaviors vs status:
References: <003e01cd0abe$542669c0$fc733d40$@att.net>
 <1332721717.43388.YahooMailNeo@web164503.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
 <CAPoR7a7e6kfQO+kVW760yB6_NguiyPKktsegYPphixREjEXP-w@mail.gmail.com> 
Message-ID: <1332847176.39897.YahooMailNeo@web164503.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

________________________________
>From: Stefano Vaj <stefano.vaj at gmail.com>
>To: The Avantguardian <avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com>; ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> 
>Sent: Monday, March 26, 2012 9:47 AM
>Subject: Re: [ExI] experiment regarding ethical behaviors vs status:
>
>
>On 26 March 2012 02:28, The Avantguardian <avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>So society deems cannibalism acceptable under duress but?evil?when at leisure.
>>
>
>Actually, in anthropological terms, several societies admit or encorage cannibalism, but almost invariably it has therein a ritual and symbolic, rather than nutritional, purpose. 
>
>As mentioned another time, in fact, to eat members of your own species is a good idea only inasmuch as their meat is perfectly sterile or you do not have any other choice.

Eating your own species or even too close to your own species is super bad idea from a health and nutritional perspective. Sterility won't protect you from Kuru. It's a prion disease similar to Mad Cow's Disease caused by a misfolded protein in your meal. Ingesting the misfolded protein?causes your?own proteins to misfold in an identical manner causing plaques and lacunae to appear in your brain. Like chain-reactioned version of Alzheimers.?Nasty stuff prions are and you can't sterilize them because they are simply screwed up proteins. Not alive so you?can't kill them. Can't screw them up because being screwed?up is what makes them dangerous in the first place. Pretty much the definition of fucked. Prions remind me of the Andromeda Strain.
?
Then of course you have the toxin build up on the food chain. The further up the food chain you eat, the more toxin buildup you can expect. Especially in the fat. Don't eat the fat or the liver of predators. The fat contains toxins, the liver contains fat?and an overdose of vitamin?D that?puts you at risk for bone tumors.?
?
>OTOH, I am not aware that widespread ethical systems have much to say on the subject unless you do that deliberately in order to express contempt for the deceased, to desecrate his or her corpse, etc.
?
Don't get hung up on cannibalism.?Substitute any taboo or 'evil' behavior in the place of?cannibalism, and?it would still sound true.?If somebody put a gun to your head and forced you to break the law, would not most juries acquit you of whatever crime you may have comitted under duress? Is not justifiable homicide in?self-defense?somewhat similar to murder under duress? Are married men who get raped in prison commiting adultery on their wives? 

>efy my intuition at all. People don't achieve status by being nice, they achieve?status two ways:?by being ruthless or by inheriting it from somebody who was.?
>
>Mmhhh. Sociability and popularity and empathy and ability to cooperate in the group's shared interests against other groups may actually be a part of the cocktail - unless and until they do not detract to other more important factors. :-)

All the rest certainly helps.?Also I notice you did not instantly?conflate status?with wealth or other forms of power.?That?is perceptive of you. More so than the Berkeley study.?
?
Stuart LaForge
?
"The state that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards, and its fighting by fools." -Thucydides.




From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Tue Mar 27 11:56:31 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 13:56:31 +0200
Subject: [ExI] experiment regarding ethical behaviors vs status:
In-Reply-To: <1332847176.39897.YahooMailNeo@web164503.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <003e01cd0abe$542669c0$fc733d40$@att.net>
 <1332721717.43388.YahooMailNeo@web164503.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
 <CAPoR7a7e6kfQO+kVW760yB6_NguiyPKktsegYPphixREjEXP-w@mail.gmail.com>
 <1332847176.39897.YahooMailNeo@web164503.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a5M-coFAf5+6FqHt8JTMN_b2Pmii7njjeYNa0HJ8sxaCQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 27 March 2012 13:19, The Avantguardian <avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com>wrote:

> Eating your own species or even too close to your own species is super bad
> idea from a health and nutritional perspective.


Yes, I appreciate your argument, and this qualifies to some extent the
statement that in principle poisons are in vegetals.


> Don't get hung up on cannibalism. Substitute any taboo or 'evil' behavior
> in the place of cannibalism, and it would still sound true. If somebody put
> a gun to your head and forced you to break the law, would not most juries
> acquit you of whatever crime you may have comitted under duress? Is not
> justifiable homicide in self-defense somewhat similar to murder under
> duress? Are married men who get raped in prison commiting adultery on their
> wives?
>

OK. But my point is that cannibalism, in spite of a strong yuck factor,
probably need not require "ethically" the kind of "extreme" pressure, or
lack of choice, required for absolution from other sins. You cannot kill
somebody to steal a pie because you are "normally" hungry, and not
presently starving to death, but if you eat some human flesh the fact of
being positively hungry would be probably considered as enough of a
justification by many.

All the rest certainly helps. Also I notice you did not instantly conflate
> status with wealth or other forms of power. That is perceptive of you. More
> so than the Berkeley study.
>

;-)

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From ddraig at gmail.com  Tue Mar 27 12:45:10 2012
From: ddraig at gmail.com (ddraig)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 23:45:10 +1100
Subject: [ExI] Will robot cars be TOO good?
In-Reply-To: <002001cd0aae$d299bb50$77cd31f0$@att.net>
References: <CAL_armjn1TOSY49uCFiWwhzrLcpkN+i1P1uqPoBg975jBkOQPg@mail.gmail.com>
 <002001cd0aae$d299bb50$77cd31f0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAGfkSy3+uO-ZF2rDnRs0HoDDY9zF2bVJ+d2dD5SUKtQo15m7qQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 26 March 2012 04:43, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

> Imagine resurrecting a person from the horse and buggy days, and taking her
> down any modern freeway at freeway speeds. ?She would be terrified. ?My own
> grandmother-in-law from Idaho used to freak out in ordinary San Jose freeway
> traffic as late as the 1990s, from the speed and closeness of the cars.

When my grandmother was in hospital dying from a stroke, my
grandfather decided to stay home one day - we were going in every day
for weeks - I think it was just wearing him down -  and Mum rang about
lunchtime to say 'get in now'

So I packed him in the car and drove in to the hospital as fast as I can.

I'm an extremely good high-speed driver. He has never driven a car, ever.

Eventually I had to slow down as I realised I was about to give him a
heart attack.

I can just see *me* feeling like that one day, with some
super-efficient robot piloting my personal commuter jet.  Errr, car.


Dwayne
-- 
? ddraig at pobox.com irc.bluesphereweb.com #dna
? ? ? ?? ...r.e.t.u.r.n....t.o....t.h.e....s.o.u.r.c.e...
? ? ? ? http://tinyurl.com/he-is-right-you-know-jpg
our aim is wakefulness,? our enemy is dreamless sleep



From ddraig at gmail.com  Tue Mar 27 13:07:24 2012
From: ddraig at gmail.com (ddraig)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 00:07:24 +1100
Subject: [ExI] Will robot cars be TOO good?
In-Reply-To: <002a01cd0ab6$61925cc0$24b71640$@att.net>
References: <CAL_armjn1TOSY49uCFiWwhzrLcpkN+i1P1uqPoBg975jBkOQPg@mail.gmail.com>
 <002001cd0aae$d299bb50$77cd31f0$@att.net>
 <002a01cd0ab6$61925cc0$24b71640$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAGfkSy0FZ9wuTX8tChJeRsXb7kbDfJeBXm_ADT-Ej6hZL3phOQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 26 March 2012 05:37, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

> To make this work in the densest part of the city, we would need to move all
> pedestrian and bicycle traffic above the street level.

....


leading us, inexorably, to alt.pave-the-earth

;p

Dwayne
-- 
? ddraig at pobox.com irc.bluesphereweb.com #dna
? ? ? ?? ...r.e.t.u.r.n....t.o....t.h.e....s.o.u.r.c.e...
? ? ? ? http://tinyurl.com/he-is-right-you-know-jpg
our aim is wakefulness,? our enemy is dreamless sleep



From eugen at leitl.org  Tue Mar 27 13:27:48 2012
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 15:27:48 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Will robot cars be TOO good?
In-Reply-To: <CAGfkSy0FZ9wuTX8tChJeRsXb7kbDfJeBXm_ADT-Ej6hZL3phOQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armjn1TOSY49uCFiWwhzrLcpkN+i1P1uqPoBg975jBkOQPg@mail.gmail.com>
 <002001cd0aae$d299bb50$77cd31f0$@att.net>
 <002a01cd0ab6$61925cc0$24b71640$@att.net>
 <CAGfkSy0FZ9wuTX8tChJeRsXb7kbDfJeBXm_ADT-Ej6hZL3phOQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120327132748.GG17245@leitl.org>

On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 12:07:24AM +1100, ddraig wrote:
> On 26 March 2012 05:37, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> 
> > To make this work in the densest part of the city, we would need to move all
> > pedestrian and bicycle traffic above the street level.
> 
> ....
> 
> 
> leading us, inexorably, to alt.pave-the-earth

alt.chrome.the.moon you heretic.


From ddraig at gmail.com  Tue Mar 27 13:36:35 2012
From: ddraig at gmail.com (ddraig)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 00:36:35 +1100
Subject: [ExI] Will robot cars be TOO good?
In-Reply-To: <20120327132748.GG17245@leitl.org>
References: <CAL_armjn1TOSY49uCFiWwhzrLcpkN+i1P1uqPoBg975jBkOQPg@mail.gmail.com>
 <002001cd0aae$d299bb50$77cd31f0$@att.net>
 <002a01cd0ab6$61925cc0$24b71640$@att.net>
 <CAGfkSy0FZ9wuTX8tChJeRsXb7kbDfJeBXm_ADT-Ej6hZL3phOQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120327132748.GG17245@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <CAGfkSy0BO7ffnNxrcE1+ny-MGFhn=cC7fhMLN2H5Y5LXJPyPBg@mail.gmail.com>

On 28 March 2012 00:27, Eugen Leitl <eugen at leitl.org> wrote:

>> leading us, inexorably, to alt.pave-the-earth
>
> alt.chrome.the.moon you heretic.

oooh, shiny!


Dwayne
-- 
? ddraig at pobox.com irc.bluesphereweb.com #dna
? ? ? ?? ...r.e.t.u.r.n....t.o....t.h.e....s.o.u.r.c.e...
? ? ? ? http://tinyurl.com/he-is-right-you-know-jpg
our aim is wakefulness,? our enemy is dreamless sleep



From spike66 at att.net  Tue Mar 27 14:50:22 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 07:50:22 -0700
Subject: [ExI] experiment regarding ethical behaviors vs status
In-Reply-To: <20120327062758.GX17245@leitl.org>
References: <000001cd0b65$002e7720$008b6560$@att.net>
 <4F70EABB.5050708@aleph.se> <005e01cd0ba0$6a7640a0$3f62c1e0$@att.net>
 <20120327062758.GX17245@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <006901cd0c28$f01fe660$d05fb320$@att.net>

>... On Behalf Of Eugen Leitl

>> spike wrote:

>> Likewise the zippy German sports cars race up front and cut in, not
because they have a 'tude, but rather just because they can.

>...Yes, and rich people are dicks. Just because they can.
_______________________________________________

Unverifiable.  We have no way to know if they are rich.

spike



From pharos at gmail.com  Tue Mar 27 15:20:01 2012
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 16:20:01 +0100
Subject: [ExI] experiment regarding ethical behaviors vs status
In-Reply-To: <006901cd0c28$f01fe660$d05fb320$@att.net>
References: <000001cd0b65$002e7720$008b6560$@att.net>
 <4F70EABB.5050708@aleph.se>
 <005e01cd0ba0$6a7640a0$3f62c1e0$@att.net>
 <20120327062758.GX17245@leitl.org>
 <006901cd0c28$f01fe660$d05fb320$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAL_armjd4EgsKWZcg-mpLb_x1Wb+1zq6hUHyLLbiZmAaH8qzVQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 3:50 PM, spike wrote:
> Unverifiable. ?We have no way to know if they are rich.
>
>

True. It is more likely that certain types of people generally prefer
certain models of cars.

I.e. dicks buy BMWs.
10 year old BMWs are not that expensive, but are still bought by dicks.


BillK



From eugen at leitl.org  Tue Mar 27 15:21:23 2012
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 17:21:23 +0200
Subject: [ExI] experiment regarding ethical behaviors vs status
In-Reply-To: <006901cd0c28$f01fe660$d05fb320$@att.net>
References: <000001cd0b65$002e7720$008b6560$@att.net>
 <4F70EABB.5050708@aleph.se> <005e01cd0ba0$6a7640a0$3f62c1e0$@att.net>
 <20120327062758.GX17245@leitl.org> <006901cd0c28$f01fe660$d05fb320$@att.net>
Message-ID: <20120327152123.GJ17245@leitl.org>

On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 07:50:22AM -0700, spike wrote:

> >...Yes, and rich people are dicks. Just because they can.
> _______________________________________________
> 
> Unverifiable.  We have no way to know if they are rich.

I can tell you that I can't afford German cars, nevermind
luxury ones. I don't think you're driving a Cayenne or a BMW SUV
either.


From spike66 at att.net  Tue Mar 27 15:20:56 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 08:20:56 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Will robot cars be TOO good?
In-Reply-To: <CAGfkSy3+uO-ZF2rDnRs0HoDDY9zF2bVJ+d2dD5SUKtQo15m7qQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armjn1TOSY49uCFiWwhzrLcpkN+i1P1uqPoBg975jBkOQPg@mail.gmail.com>
 <002001cd0aae$d299bb50$77cd31f0$@att.net>
 <CAGfkSy3+uO-ZF2rDnRs0HoDDY9zF2bVJ+d2dD5SUKtQo15m7qQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <007f01cd0c2d$3556e040$a004a0c0$@att.net>



>...On Behalf Of ddraig


>...I'm an extremely good high-speed driver. He has never driven a car,
ever...Eventually I had to slow down as I realised I was about to give him a
heart attack...I can just see *me* feeling like that one day, with some
super-efficient robot piloting my personal commuter jet.  Errr, car...Dwayne
--
? 

This is how that will look to you.  Your granddaughter has a specially
equipped car, this being required for any vehicle within four miles of city
center.  If you didn't have that, you would be required to take alternate
transportation.  When you get to the perimeter, a pleasant female voice
comments, "Traffic-Star taking control of your vehicle now."  Your
granddaughter takes her hands off the wheel, gas and brake, for they do not
respond to her commands.  The car speeds up, on a crowded street.  There is
no foot traffic here.  It zips you through an intersection with other
traffic going every direction.  Your car misses other cross-traffic by an
arm span, at which time you respond "JAYSUS!  Did you see that?"  Your
teenage granddaughter didn't, or didn't notice, for she had her face in her
Nintendo.  

She suggests you take a nap for the next ten minutes, for the experience can
be scary for those who are not accustomed to trusting the system, which came
online just when she got her driver's license.  You swoosh right through one
intersection after another, and each time it appears to you as a miracle of
survival, each one a near-death experience, since traffic is going through
in all directions at high speeds, barely missing each other, but always
missing each other as they swoosh past with an tactile whomp from the
compressed air wave passing so close.  Apparently the older occupants of
these specially-equipped cars are a deeply religious group, for during the
trip through the city they are heard early and often shrieking the name of
their favorite deity and in some cases his mother as well.  

spike




From spike66 at att.net  Tue Mar 27 16:09:15 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 09:09:15 -0700
Subject: [ExI] experiment regarding ethical behaviors vs status
In-Reply-To: <20120327152123.GJ17245@leitl.org>
References: <000001cd0b65$002e7720$008b6560$@att.net>
 <4F70EABB.5050708@aleph.se> <005e01cd0ba0$6a7640a0$3f62c1e0$@att.net>
 <20120327062758.GX17245@leitl.org> <006901cd0c28$f01fe660$d05fb320$@att.net>
 <20120327152123.GJ17245@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <008801cd0c33$f5019740$df04c5c0$@att.net>



>... On Behalf Of Eugen Leitl

> _______________________________________________
> 
>> Unverifiable.  We have no way to know if they are rich.

>...I can tell you that I can't afford German cars, nevermind luxury ones. I
don't think you're driving a Cayenne or a BMW SUV either... Eugen

_______________________________________________
>...I.e. dicks buy BMWs.  10 year old BMWs are not that expensive, but are
still bought by dicks.  BillK


Here's a mostly entertaining aside for both of you.  BMW didn't design their
high-end luxury cars for the US, but rather the Autobahn, which they do very
well.  But the amount of heat produced by a V-12 five liter is a bit too
much for the occasional low speed summer day, which is hotter here in
California than is typical in Germany.  Consequently those cars suffer heat
effects, such as ruined radiators.  The krauts charge absurd amounts of
money for genuine BMW parts (Mercedes is even worse) which causes the prices
of ten year old Benzes and Beemers to be waaaay down there, lower than some
of their American counterparts, even if the purchase price of the
Kampftrager was three times as much.  

The BMW 750iL is a good example: the radiators go out regularly, and a
replacement cost is 1400 USD if you need Herr Mechaniker to do it for you.
I don't.  I can buy cheapy Chinese knockoff aftermarket radiators and hoses
(which I am told last as long or longer than the genuine German part because
they are made for higher temps.)  I can install them myself.  So I can get a
racy German Bond-mobile for a song (I mean it, those ten to fifteen year old
German V12s are cheeeeapy cheap, because mechanic bills eat you alive) then
fix it myself using all aftermarket parts.  

Hans and Franz assure you that the resale price goes way down if there are
any non-BMW parts on there, but that doesn't matter if the car is already 10
years old and you got it for a tenth of its original sale price, still
looking new.  A lot of those high end German luxury cars were used only by
internet fly-by-night executives who tend to be single, so the cars often
have fine leather back seats which have never had a pair of buns on them.
Furthermore,  those kinds of owners tend to take their car to the dealer for
service.

If the car was serviced by Hans and Franz, you know they occasionally
succumbed to the temptation to use Chinese parts for a tenth the price,
while charging German part prices, so I speculate that any older German car
already has Chinese parts anyway, even if the owner can show receipts
claiming only genuine German parts were used.  It might not even be a
crooked mechanic: there are counterfeit parts marked as German.  That
happens when you charge big bucks for anything.

I don't care if I only get 10 miles to the gallon, because I don't go very
far.

A fifteen year old 750, if parked indoors, still looks as shiny and new as
the day it came off the assembly line.  A person driving such a rig could be
any poor person who grew up in the days when we still had to work on cars.
Depending on how you count your time and how far you drive, a used German
luxury muscle car might be very low cost transportation, and ooooh my, you
cut a sharp image tearing around in one of those kraut-burner rigs.

Point: you can't tell a person's financial status by what she drives.

spike



From eugen at leitl.org  Tue Mar 27 16:38:27 2012
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 18:38:27 +0200
Subject: [ExI] experiment regarding ethical behaviors vs status
In-Reply-To: <008801cd0c33$f5019740$df04c5c0$@att.net>
References: <000001cd0b65$002e7720$008b6560$@att.net>
 <4F70EABB.5050708@aleph.se> <005e01cd0ba0$6a7640a0$3f62c1e0$@att.net>
 <20120327062758.GX17245@leitl.org> <006901cd0c28$f01fe660$d05fb320$@att.net>
 <20120327152123.GJ17245@leitl.org> <008801cd0c33$f5019740$df04c5c0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <20120327163827.GL17245@leitl.org>

On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 09:09:15AM -0700, spike wrote:

> A fifteen year old 750, if parked indoors, still looks as shiny and new as
> the day it came off the assembly line.  A person driving such a rig could be
> any poor person who grew up in the days when we still had to work on cars.
> Depending on how you count your time and how far you drive, a used German
> luxury muscle car might be very low cost transportation, and ooooh my, you
> cut a sharp image tearing around in one of those kraut-burner rigs.
> 
> Point: you can't tell a person's financial status by what she drives.

Yes, you can. Rich people buy a) *new* b) *latest-model* c) *big* luxury 
model cars which will bankrupt poor people by fuel costs alone.

(Some immigrants, particularly from Turkey tend to live over their means,
but even then these are older models).

The only time this doesn't apply is rentals.


From anders at aleph.se  Tue Mar 27 16:18:41 2012
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 17:18:41 +0100
Subject: [ExI] The NSA's new data center
In-Reply-To: <20120327095723.GC17245@leitl.org>
References: <201203241528.q2OFStlk023463@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <20120324154627.GL9891@leitl.org>
 <201203241613.q2OGDuc6013513@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <CAPoR7a4zAHiE-LZSqX4MZ7ZowN7gc5v4H-ATecs+dxFecosW7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <201203241725.q2OHP6Ve010600@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <CALAdGNQggXL-R64g64mwLKGeZgXw=Rjfo0dUYBP-iHggBUoREA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPy8RwbtAVMNzqONE--hXciR7AAX3URP_pesFXHBRV5wc8uvWg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120325090553.GI9891@leitl.org> <4F70671A.5060600@aleph.se>
 <CAPoR7a4TKNAe6wyGXJcMjG-+7BxX+6usjxkV-Oiy3DE58mr4qA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120327095723.GC17245@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <4F71E861.9050703@aleph.se>

On 27/03/2012 10:57, Eugen Leitl wrote:
> The centralist high-expert-power surveillance approach will always 
> beat decentralist many-shallow-eyeballs sousveillance approach.

I think this is an important angle.

What properties of technologies tend to give states (or other big power 
concentrations) advantages in power compared to the citizens? A few 
possibilities:

* High cost of entry (keeps small actors out)
* Economies of scale (big systems do the job better)
* Produces information or products of more use to states than individuals
* Requires rare expertise that cannot be distributed

Conversely technologies with low costs of entry, network effects (many 
users potentiate each other), producing citizen-useful results and that 
can be used by non-experts will tend to help the citizens. When it comes 
to surveillance the first two factors are fairly equal on the state and 
citizen side, but there might be enough difference in the second two to 
make it more useful to the concentrated power.

Brin made the point that many of the "antibodies" of the open society 
are semi-cranks who obsessively focus on certain things and pursue them: 
that they are often somewhat isolated and often wrong doesn't matter as 
long as their signals can be picked up and amplified by the saner 
mainstream. These antibodies to some extent represent rare expertise. 
Technologies that would make it easier to track certain interests might 
amplify their power.



> Technology cannot route around broken politics. 

The reverse is also true. Politics cannot route around broken technology 
except by brute force.


> As most people here are aware US has basically zero information 
> privacy laws. This is causing an increasing impedance mismatch in 
> transatlantic dealings.

In a way it is a good experiment to see the EU experiment in privacy 
compared to the US experiment in zero privacy. Unfortunately so far the 
technology and politics seem broken on both sides.

-- 
Anders Sandberg,
Future of Humanity Institute
Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University



From anders at aleph.se  Tue Mar 27 16:08:42 2012
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 17:08:42 +0100
Subject: [ExI] experiment regarding ethical behaviors vs status
In-Reply-To: <006901cd0c28$f01fe660$d05fb320$@att.net>
References: <000001cd0b65$002e7720$008b6560$@att.net>
 <4F70EABB.5050708@aleph.se> <005e01cd0ba0$6a7640a0$3f62c1e0$@att.net>
 <20120327062758.GX17245@leitl.org> <006901cd0c28$f01fe660$d05fb320$@att.net>
Message-ID: <4F71E60A.10704@aleph.se>

On 27/03/2012 15:50, spike wrote:
>> ...Yes, and rich people are dicks. Just because they can.
> _______________________________________________
>
> Unverifiable.  We have no way to know if they are rich.
>

We can do an interventional study. Please give me a lot of money, and we 
can tell whether I turn into a dick.

-- 
Anders Sandberg,
Future of Humanity Institute
Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University



From spike66 at att.net  Tue Mar 27 17:07:44 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 10:07:44 -0700
Subject: [ExI] experiment regarding ethical behaviors vs status
In-Reply-To: <4F71E60A.10704@aleph.se>
References: <000001cd0b65$002e7720$008b6560$@att.net>
 <4F70EABB.5050708@aleph.se> <005e01cd0ba0$6a7640a0$3f62c1e0$@att.net>
 <20120327062758.GX17245@leitl.org> <006901cd0c28$f01fe660$d05fb320$@att.net>
 <4F71E60A.10704@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <00b901cd0c3c$20ebd570$62c38050$@att.net>


>... On Behalf Of Anders Sandberg
Subject: Re: [ExI] experiment regarding ethical behaviors vs status

>>> ...Yes, and rich people are dicks. Just because they can.  Eugen
> _______________________________________________
> On 27/03/2012 15:50, spike wrote:
>>... Unverifiable.  We have no way to know if they are rich.
>

>...We can do an interventional study. Please give me a lot of money, and we
can tell whether I turn into a dick. -- Anders Sandberg,

Anders this is impossible sir.  You have far too much residual nice hanging
all over you.  To extricate you from that deep pit of nice, that morass of
kindheartedness would be beyond reasonable national budgets and current
technology, regardless of how much filthy lucre we were to shower upon you.
We could not make you mean or aggressive any more than we could make the
three-toed sloth a carnivorous sprinter.  It's just deep within the basic
nature of the beast: sloths are slow, you are nice.

spike



From eugen at leitl.org  Tue Mar 27 18:23:49 2012
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 20:23:49 +0200
Subject: [ExI] [tt]  The NSA's new data center
Message-ID: <20120327182349.GQ17245@leitl.org>

----- Forwarded message from "J. Andrew Rogers" <jar.mailbox at gmail.com> -----

From: "J. Andrew Rogers" <jar.mailbox at gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 11:01:01 -0700
To: tt at postbiota.org
Subject: Re: [tt] [ExI] The NSA's new data center

On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 9:47 AM, Eugen Leitl <eugen at leitl.org> wrote:
> ----- Forwarded message from Anders Sandberg <anders at aleph.se> -----
>
> From: Anders Sandberg <anders at aleph.se>
> Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 17:18:41 +0100
> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Subject: Re: [ExI] The NSA's new data center
> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1;
> ? ? ? ?rv:10.0.2) Gecko/20120216 Thunderbird/10.0.2
> Reply-To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
>
> On 27/03/2012 10:57, Eugen Leitl wrote:
>> The centralist high-expert-power surveillance approach will always beat
>> decentralist many-shallow-eyeballs sousveillance approach.
>
> I think this is an important angle.
>
> What properties of technologies tend to give states (or other big power
> concentrations) advantages in power compared to the citizens? A few
> possibilities:
>
> * High cost of entry (keeps small actors out)
> * Economies of scale (big systems do the job better)
> * Produces information or products of more use to states than individuals
> * Requires rare expertise that cannot be distributed


The important factor that is often overlooked when discussing
centralized surveillance versus decentralized sous-veillance is that
distributed/parallel algorithm optimality or efficiency is often
predicated on fairly narrow topological assumptions. In a centralized
facility, the topology can be designed for the problems being solved.
In an ad hoc decentralized network it is virtually guaranteed that
parts of the topology will be pathological, making many algorithms
effectively intractable in such environments. The reverse is not true
of course, algorithms that are not sensitive to topology will still
work just fine in a centralized data center.

It turns out that the algorithm families related to deep relationship
analysis -- the kind of algorithms you use to invade privacy -- are
very much in the former category. They only parallelize well under
topological constraints so narrow that even having a giant data center
is insufficient; you would need to deploy the data models on the
cluster in carefully designed logical topologies in addition to a
carefully designed physical topology.

In this case, "winning" is biased toward whoever has both the biggest
data centers and the best theoretical computer scientists.

-- 
J. Andrew Rogers
_______________________________________________
tt mailing list
tt at postbiota.org
http://postbiota.org/mailman/listinfo/tt

----- End forwarded message -----
-- 
Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE


From lubkin at unreasonable.com  Tue Mar 27 19:56:48 2012
From: lubkin at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 15:56:48 -0400
Subject: [ExI] The NSA's new data center
In-Reply-To: <20120327182349.GQ17245@leitl.org>
References: <20120327182349.GQ17245@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <201203272034.q2RKY1LR004520@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

Eugen wrote:

 >> The centralist high-expert-power surveillance approach will always beat
 >> decentralist many-shallow-eyeballs sousveillance approach.
         ::
>It turns out that the algorithm families related to deep relationship
>analysis -- the kind of algorithms you use to invade privacy -- are
>very much in the former category. They only parallelize well under
>topological constraints so narrow that even having a giant data center
>is insufficient; you would need to deploy the data models on the
>cluster in carefully designed logical topologies in addition to a
>carefully designed physical topology.
>
>In this case, "winning" is biased toward whoever has both the biggest
>data centers and the best theoretical computer scientists.

Why do you see this as a sustainable advantage?

That is, won't we reach a point where the capabilities of this NSA
center are within the price range of reasonably sized coalitions of
private individuals? Yes, by then the government agencies would
have even more, but would it make a difference as a practical
matter?

There's only so much useful data about people and their interrelations.
It seems to me we move (big and central can analyze in ways
others can't) => (big and central can analyze it faster) => (being big
and central ceases to have an advantage).


-- David.



From sparge at gmail.com  Tue Mar 27 20:32:04 2012
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 16:32:04 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Mark Sisson on fasting and longevity
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2cH71vnc-SwgATj1wEr43LfPXCiVOAi=76W_HDfON5VPg@mail.gmail.com>

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/fasting-longevity-lifespan/

*A time-honored and research-tested way to extend an animal?s lifespan is
to restrict its caloric intake. Studies repeatedly confirm that if, say, a
lab mouse normally gets two full bowls of lab chow a day, limiting that
mouse to one and a half bowls of lab chow a day will make that mouse live
longer than the mouse eating the full two bowls. Cool, cool, a longer life
is great and all, but what about the downsides of straight calorie
restriction, aside from willfully restricting your food intake, ignoring
hunger pangs, relegating yourself to feeling discontent with meals, and
counting calories and macronutrients obsessively? Are there any others?
Sure:*
*
*
*Loss of muscle mass. Humans undergoing calorie restriction often suffer
loss of lean muscle mass and strength, all pretty objectively negative
effects (unless you really go for the gaunt ?Christian Bale in The
Machinist? look and use a super-strong bionic exoskeleton for all your
physical tasks).*
*
*
*Loss of bone mineral density. Humans who calorie restrict in studies also
show signs of lower bone mineral density when compared to humans who lose
weight from exercise, particularly in the hip and spine ? the two areas
most susceptible to fall-related bone breaks. I wrote about this study some
time ago here.*
*
*
*Oh, and there?s the fact that the act of restricting one?s calories can be
mind-numbing, miserable, and difficult for a great many people, especially
if it?s a lifelong pursuit. (Unless, of course, you eat according to the
Primal Blueprint and are fat-adapted. It can make CR not only tolerable,
but a cinch because we become so good at living off stored body fat. We
don?t suffer from sugar lows when we skip meals the way most people who
fast do, but I digress.) That?s kind of a biggie.*

...

*Bottom line: fasting may not work by some magical pathway separate from
caloric restriction. It may, but it hasn?t been established. What we do
know is that fasting (whether by inadvertent, enhanced calorie restriction
or whatever else) improves lifespan in lab mammals and improves various
health markers associated with aging and longevity in both humans and
animals. Fasting may not give you an immediate ?Life + 25? boost, and there
haven?t been any real lifespan and fasting studies done on humans (if only
we had mice-like lifespans!), but if it makes you less likely to get obese,
diabetes, heart disease, or cancer, you?re less likely to die from those
things. The fewer things you have trying to kill you, the longer you
generally live.*

-Dave
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From kellycoinguy at gmail.com  Wed Mar 28 00:02:39 2012
From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 18:02:39 -0600
Subject: [ExI] experiment regarding ethical behaviors vs status: was RE:
 Will robot cars be TOO good?
In-Reply-To: <003e01cd0abe$542669c0$fc733d40$@att.net>
References: <003e01cd0abe$542669c0$fc733d40$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAPy8RwYm+W6GzpRgBP4NA+pFJ8oFZUSA_8tWH_gfFb-U66wYxg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Mar 25, 2012 at 1:34 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> Cool check this article:
> http://news.sciencemag.org/sciencenow/2012/02/shame-on-the-rich.html?ref=hp
>
> I had a great idea, worthy of a nice science fair project.
>
> Near my house is a freeway with a right-merge lane. ?Drivers are given
> plenty of warning that the far right lane is ending. ?This gives them a
> choice to match speeds with other traffic and merge early, thus extending
> the time for their own trip but smoothing traffic. ?These are the
> cooperators. ?They have the choice of speeding ahead in the empty right lane
> up to the front of the line and stuffing their car ahead of other patient
> drivers who are now well behind, but overall wads up traffic, so it
> penalizes the cooperators twice. ?These are the defectors.

We have (or at least had; construction) a similar traffic setup here.
I found that I defected when I was in a big hurry, and that I
cooperated when I had the time to do so. Perhaps the rich are in a
hurry more often than the poor... :-)

> I might be imagining it, but I feel like I have observed that there a lot of
> Porsche and Beemer drivers who are over-represented among the defectors.
> Those particular makes stick in my mind; in general it seems like sporty
> German cars are way over-represented in the defector class. ?This defies
> intuition, for one would think the driver in the ratty old pickup with the
> gun-rack in the back window would be the defector: she can force her way in
> up front with that 50 dollar rattletrap and you must let her in; she
> probably doesn't have insurance, and one more dent on her rusty prolemobile
> would scarcely be noticed. ?But I seldom see gun-rack pickups do that
> defector trick. ?It's the shiny German buckmeisters who seem to defect.

It would not be imagining... it would be filtering. I think you are
right, the experiment must be done to know the result. However, yours
is a reasonable hypothesis to test.

> I would like to take some video of this phenom, which is a continuous
> experiment that runs 24/7, and try to extract some useful data.

Sounds fun.

As for the rich being less ethical than the poor, let me give you my
take on it (having been both). Rich people may get the idea that since
they are rich, and they get paid more than everyone else for their
time, that their time is more valuable than that of other people.
Thus, the economic thing to do is to "cheat" when they can save time
or effort because that will benefit society to the greatest extent.

I had a boss who was fairly well off. He computed the value of his
time, and the cost of the occasional speeding ticket (in both time
waiting at the side of the road and actual cost) and figured out the
optimal speed that he should travel. Because he made well in excess of
$200 an hour, the optimal speed was well above the posted speed limit.
Once he reached the point of nearly losing his license, he recomputed
the cost of having to hire a chauffeur... and slowed back down... LOL.

So perhaps Adam Smith's invisible hand is playing with the minds of
the rich. Perhaps when they cheat they justify doing so with the idea
that they are benefiting society to a higher degree than everyone
else. There is a certain logic to this way of thinking, even though it
is very easy to see how it feels disturbing to those who are not rich.
And it tends to explain why the rich get richer and the poor get
poorer...

This is not a simple subject. And it's one that I've spent a lot of
time analyzing in myself and in those around me. As you may remember,
I've hung around with lots of people on both ends of the spectrum.

I'm rich, therefore I'm important to society, therefore society should
give me a little break now and then because the rest of the moochers
are riding home on my back. It's logical, ask Ayn Rand. It is only
ethical if you buy into Objectivism or some other similar philosophy
that appeals to the rich... :-)

I'm not asking anyone to like this. But it is my take on what happens
inside the head of the rich person.

-Kelly



From anders at aleph.se  Wed Mar 28 00:13:34 2012
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 01:13:34 +0100
Subject: [ExI] experiment regarding ethical behaviors vs status
In-Reply-To: <00b901cd0c3c$20ebd570$62c38050$@att.net>
References: <000001cd0b65$002e7720$008b6560$@att.net>
 <4F70EABB.5050708@aleph.se> <005e01cd0ba0$6a7640a0$3f62c1e0$@att.net>
 <20120327062758.GX17245@leitl.org> <006901cd0c28$f01fe660$d05fb320$@att.net>
 <4F71E60A.10704@aleph.se> <00b901cd0c3c$20ebd570$62c38050$@att.net>
Message-ID: <4F7257AE.4000404@aleph.se>

On 27/03/2012 18:07, spike wrote:
>
>> ...We can do an interventional study. Please give me a lot of money, and we
> can tell whether I turn into a dick. -- Anders Sandberg,
>
> Anders this is impossible sir.  You have far too much residual nice hanging
> all over you.  To extricate you from that deep pit of nice, that morass of
> kindheartedness would be beyond reasonable national budgets and current
> technology, regardless of how much filthy lucre we were to shower upon you.
> We could not make you mean or aggressive any more than we could make the
> three-toed sloth a carnivorous sprinter.  It's just deep within the basic
> nature of the beast: sloths are slow, you are nice.

But we can try to measure the change in niceness? There ought to be some 
effect size?!

I *promise* not to donate the money to charity! :-)

-- 
Anders Sandberg,
Future of Humanity Institute
Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University



From spike66 at att.net  Wed Mar 28 00:21:30 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 17:21:30 -0700
Subject: [ExI] experiment regarding ethical behaviors vs status: was RE:
	Will robot cars be TOO good?
In-Reply-To: <CAPy8RwYm+W6GzpRgBP4NA+pFJ8oFZUSA_8tWH_gfFb-U66wYxg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <003e01cd0abe$542669c0$fc733d40$@att.net>
 <CAPy8RwYm+W6GzpRgBP4NA+pFJ8oFZUSA_8tWH_gfFb-U66wYxg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <01cd01cd0c78$b99cc400$2cd64c00$@att.net>


>... On Behalf Of Kelly Anderson

On Sun, Mar 25, 2012 at 1:34 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>
> >... ?They have the choice of speeding ahead in the empty right lane up to
the front of the line and stuffing their car 
> ahead of other patient drivers who are now well behind, but overall 
> wads up traffic, so it penalizes the cooperators twice. ?These are the
defectors.

>... Perhaps the rich are in a hurry more often than the poor... :-)  --
Kelly


I think you hit it right on Kelly.  In my own analysis I missed an important
point: the racy German cars were favored by companies who offered them as
bait for the best executive talent.  They were likewise favored by those who
wanted to appear to be one of those executives.  So racy German cars are
favored by fast rising executives, whose time really is valuable as all get
out.  Fines for driving crazy are flat rate, not a function of income.  So
the penalty for a fast rising executive is an annoyance, but for the local
taxi driver it is a crisis.

spike






From spike66 at att.net  Wed Mar 28 00:30:58 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 17:30:58 -0700
Subject: [ExI] experiment regarding ethical behaviors vs status
In-Reply-To: <4F7257AE.4000404@aleph.se>
References: <000001cd0b65$002e7720$008b6560$@att.net>
 <4F70EABB.5050708@aleph.se> <005e01cd0ba0$6a7640a0$3f62c1e0$@att.net>
 <20120327062758.GX17245@leitl.org> <006901cd0c28$f01fe660$d05fb320$@att.net>
 <4F71E60A.10704@aleph.se> <00b901cd0c3c$20ebd570$62c38050$@att.net>
 <4F7257AE.4000404@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <01ce01cd0c7a$0c2d9630$2488c290$@att.net>


>... On Behalf Of Anders Sandberg

On 27/03/2012 18:07, spike wrote:
>
>> ... It's just deep within the basic nature of the beast: sloths are slow,
you are nice.

>...But we can try to measure the change in niceness? There ought to be some
effect size?!  I *promise* not to donate the money to charity! :-)  --
Anders Sandberg,


{8^D

If d(nice)/dt is negatively correlated with d$/dt, then...

What we need are metrics for nice.  This would be a really interesting
artificial intelligence exercise.  Anders, I have followed your posts on ExI
for over 15 yrs now, and I have never seen a comment or word from you that
was unkind, even when unkind words would be amply justified.  You and Johnny
Grigg are the champions of nice, and I do deeply admire that, sir.

Humans can easily estimate nice from reading archives, but can we write
software to measure nice?  We have a huge body of work to use as a test
subject, the ExI archives from about 2003.  We could get a group of
randomly-chosen readers to estimate a kindness metric between 1 and 10,
although I might have already accidentally wrecked it by identifying a
couple of high NQ scorers.  Would not it be cool to try to write a script
that can take those archives and match the general profile of the readers?

Any code hipsters have any ideas on how to do this?  If so it would be a
classic AI app: having an (apparently) unfeeling machine try to read human
language and measure a human emotion.

spike



From kellycoinguy at gmail.com  Wed Mar 28 00:54:28 2012
From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 18:54:28 -0600
Subject: [ExI] experiment regarding ethical behaviors vs status: was RE:
 Will robot cars be TOO good?
In-Reply-To: <01cd01cd0c78$b99cc400$2cd64c00$@att.net>
References: <003e01cd0abe$542669c0$fc733d40$@att.net>
 <CAPy8RwYm+W6GzpRgBP4NA+pFJ8oFZUSA_8tWH_gfFb-U66wYxg@mail.gmail.com>
 <01cd01cd0c78$b99cc400$2cd64c00$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAPy8Rwb5wzcnt+tndWrCudwM6vPWAiHJnno1c5i7LnX-nG0gng@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 6:21 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>
>>... On Behalf Of Kelly Anderson
>
> On Sun, Mar 25, 2012 at 1:34 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>>
>> >... ?They have the choice of speeding ahead in the empty right lane up to
> the front of the line and stuffing their car
>> ahead of other patient drivers who are now well behind, but overall
>> wads up traffic, so it penalizes the cooperators twice. ?These are the
> defectors.
>
>>... Perhaps the rich are in a hurry more often than the poor... :-) ?--
> Kelly
>
>
> I think you hit it right on Kelly. ?In my own analysis I missed an important
> point: the racy German cars were favored by companies who offered them as
> bait for the best executive talent. ?They were likewise favored by those who
> wanted to appear to be one of those executives. ?So racy German cars are
> favored by fast rising executives, whose time really is valuable as all get
> out. ?Fines for driving crazy are flat rate, not a function of income. ?So
> the penalty for a fast rising executive is an annoyance, but for the local
> taxi driver it is a crisis.

OK, I thought about this while peeling a bunch of potatoes, and now
I'm not feeling quite so conciliatory. We should thank the rich who
pay 90% of the cost of the highway by giving them their own carpool
lane. (In fact, the do this here, as you can buy your way into the
carpool lane, but that's double taxation, the subject of another rant)
We should allow them to travel at 140 MPH in those lanes. We should
bless them every time they blow past us. Why? Because they are paying
the damn bill to keep all that real estate paved!

The rich should cheat a little. We should be happy when they do. This
predates humanity. The lioness who is the best hunter gets the best
food first. Why? So she can hunt the gazelle so the whole pride is
more likely to eat again tomorrow!!

It is ludicrous that we vilify the rich in the first place. When they
do these little cheats to save a few minutes, we should be happy that
they are on the way to creating the future that WE ALL WANT. Hating
them for it is envy, and that's one of the seven deadly sins for a
DAMN FINE REASON.

So, I take it back. Bad science project, unless it's put into context,
and compute the economic benefit of all this cheating as part of the
project. I bet you would find that they are still disproportionally
NOT getting their fair share of use out of the road that they mostly
paid for.

Now, don't go saying Kelly justifies Bernie Madoff. He stole
disproportionately from people who could not afford it. I'm talking
about the little cheats. Going before they should at the 4 way stop...
that sort of thing. We should kiss their rich butts when they do this
sort of thing because that means our future will come to us all faster
than we otherwise would get it.

Spike, as a card carrying libertarian thinker, you should agree with
what I'm saying here. I forgive you because maybe you didn't think it
through all the way the first time... :-)  If you continue with this
class warfare... then I'll have to have you forfeit your libertarian
credentials for the rest of the afternoon. ;-)

Rant over. For now. Sorry, I feel better now.

-Kelly



From kellycoinguy at gmail.com  Wed Mar 28 01:05:17 2012
From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 19:05:17 -0600
Subject: [ExI] experiment regarding ethical behaviors vs status
In-Reply-To: <20120327163827.GL17245@leitl.org>
References: <000001cd0b65$002e7720$008b6560$@att.net>
 <4F70EABB.5050708@aleph.se>
 <005e01cd0ba0$6a7640a0$3f62c1e0$@att.net>
 <20120327062758.GX17245@leitl.org>
 <006901cd0c28$f01fe660$d05fb320$@att.net>
 <20120327152123.GJ17245@leitl.org>
 <008801cd0c33$f5019740$df04c5c0$@att.net>
 <20120327163827.GL17245@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <CAPy8Rwa2-McMVVe9H+E2uXXg0wCdZwnv-siYfXj5KpGXo=VtCg@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 10:38 AM, Eugen Leitl <eugen at leitl.org> wrote:
>> Point: you can't tell a person's financial status by what she drives.
>
> Yes, you can. Rich people buy a) *new* b) *latest-model* c) *big* luxury
> model cars which will bankrupt poor people by fuel costs alone.
>
> (Some immigrants, particularly from Turkey tend to live over their means,
> but even then these are older models).
>
> The only time this doesn't apply is rentals.

I don't know how things work in Europe Eugen, so your mileage may
vary... But here in the good old US of A, the majority of new cars are
purchased by the poor. Yes, the Super Rich do buy the occasional
Ferrari, but new Toyota Camarys are by and large purchased by the poor
because $300 a month doesn't sound like much, and they qualify for
credit. Rich people, on the other hand, buy the used Camary until they
can afford to pay cash for the new Ferrari.

Deferred gratification is a key component to success. Rich have it
more than poor. Good math leads to rich people, another reason really
rich people buy used.

As both a rich person and as a poor person, I always buy used. I
always pay cash. That's because I'm smart, and not stuck on the status
issue. Then again, maybe if I had a better car in college, I would
have attracted a saner girl, and that would have helped an awful
lot... LOL...

-Kelly


From spike66 at att.net  Wed Mar 28 01:17:48 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 18:17:48 -0700
Subject: [ExI] experiment regarding ethical behaviors vs status: was RE:
	Will robot cars be TOO good?
In-Reply-To: <CAPy8Rwb5wzcnt+tndWrCudwM6vPWAiHJnno1c5i7LnX-nG0gng@mail.gmail.com>
References: <003e01cd0abe$542669c0$fc733d40$@att.net>
 <CAPy8RwYm+W6GzpRgBP4NA+pFJ8oFZUSA_8tWH_gfFb-U66wYxg@mail.gmail.com>
 <01cd01cd0c78$b99cc400$2cd64c00$@att.net>
 <CAPy8Rwb5wzcnt+tndWrCudwM6vPWAiHJnno1c5i7LnX-nG0gng@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <01e701cd0c80$97348080$c59d8180$@att.net>


>... On Behalf Of Kelly Anderson
...
>
>>>... Perhaps the rich are in a hurry more often than the poor... :-) ?--
Kelly
>
>
>>... I think you hit it right on Kelly. ?In my own analysis I missed an
important point: the racy German cars were favored by companies who offered
them as bait for the best executive talent. ...

>...OK, I thought about this while peeling a bunch of potatoes, and now I'm
not feeling quite so conciliatory. We should thank the rich who pay 90% of
the cost of the highway by giving them their own carpool lane. (In fact, the
do this here, as you can buy your way into the carpool lane, but that's
double taxation, the subject of another rant) We should allow them to travel
at 140 MPH in those lanes. We should bless them every time they blow past
us. Why? Because they are paying the damn bill to keep all that real estate
paved!...Rant over. For now. Sorry, I feel better now.-Kelly

_______________________________________________


No need for a rant Kelly, I think most everyone here agrees.  In fact, right
in that place where I cited the sporty German cars racing up to the front of
the merge line, we are doing exactly what you suggested: replacing carpool
lanes with toll lanes.  So those whose time is valuable can pay a fee to
save some time.  I have long advocated this, for even though I am a heavy
carpool lane user myself, they are not justified: so very often we were the
only occupants.  There were many occasions when we were whipping along at 65
right next to a miles long row of cars going at walking speed.  A casual
observer could see this is dangerous and causes animosity towards the rare
carpooler, while accomplishing approximately nothing.  I don't see that it
encouraged carpools.  My wife and I had only one car between us, and worked
in the same place, so we really didn't even have much choice.  We would have
carpooled anyway.

If you have a "Lexus lane" then you can adjust the toll until it evens out
the use.  It should be enough faster to justify the toll.  It is an
interesting experiment going on right here in California.

As I have often posted here, the rich are our friends.  They already pay
their fair share and then some.  Not only that, they create jobs for the
poor, so they help us there too.  The rich should be encouraged at every
opportunity, not criticized.  They come up with ideas which create wealth.
Of course there are bad guys in the mix, but there are bad guys in with the
poor as well.  I am not convinced that wealth correlates with bad behaviors.
In general I think good people who create positive feelings in others get
ahead more than their counterparts, the evil assholes.

Can we somehow write software to measure it?

spike




From kellycoinguy at gmail.com  Wed Mar 28 01:51:18 2012
From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 19:51:18 -0600
Subject: [ExI] experiment regarding ethical behaviors vs status: was RE:
 Will robot cars be TOO good?
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On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 7:17 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>
>>... On Behalf Of Kelly Anderson
>>
>>>>... Perhaps the rich are in a hurry more often than the poor... :-) ?--
> Kelly
>>
> Rant over. For now. Sorry, I feel better now.-Kelly
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> No need for a rant Kelly, I think most everyone here agrees.

I'm sure you do Spike... as for everybody else, let's wait and see
what they have to say for themselves. :-)

> In fact, right
> in that place where I cited the sporty German cars racing up to the front of
> the merge line, we are doing exactly what you suggested: replacing carpool
> lanes with toll lanes.

I like the combo approach we use. You can pay the toll (automatically
without slowing down) or carpool. Either way gets you into the fast
lane.

> So those whose time is valuable can pay a fee to
> save some time. ?I have long advocated this, for even though I am a heavy
> carpool lane user myself, they are not justified: so very often we were the
> only occupants. ?There were many occasions when we were whipping along at 65
> right next to a miles long row of cars going at walking speed. ?A casual
> observer could see this is dangerous and causes animosity towards the rare
> carpooler, while accomplishing approximately nothing.

But it makes the liberals FEEL BETTER because of their good intentions.

> I don't see that it
> encouraged carpools. ?My wife and I had only one car between us, and worked
> in the same place, so we really didn't even have much choice. ?We would have
> carpooled anyway.

I don't know of any studies about whether car pool lanes encourage car
pooling, but I'd bet there is something out there on this, else why
would they keep putting the silly things in?

> If you have a "Lexus lane" then you can adjust the toll until it evens out
> the use. ?It should be enough faster to justify the toll. ?It is an
> interesting experiment going on right here in California.

All the cool stuff (and horrible stuff) happens there first. :-)

> As I have often posted here, the rich are our friends. ?They already pay
> their fair share and then some. ?Not only that, they create jobs for the
> poor, so they help us there too. ?The rich should be encouraged at every
> opportunity, not criticized. ?They come up with ideas which create wealth.
> Of course there are bad guys in the mix, but there are bad guys in with the
> poor as well. ?I am not convinced that wealth correlates with bad behaviors.
> In general I think good people who create positive feelings in others get
> ahead more than their counterparts, the evil assholes.

Yup.

> Can we somehow write software to measure it?

I don't even think you could figure out the economic level from what
people post on the list... :-)

-Kelly



From kellycoinguy at gmail.com  Wed Mar 28 02:07:27 2012
From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 20:07:27 -0600
Subject: [ExI] experiment regarding ethical behaviors vs status:
In-Reply-To: <1332847176.39897.YahooMailNeo@web164503.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <003e01cd0abe$542669c0$fc733d40$@att.net>
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On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 5:19 AM, The Avantguardian
<avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Are married men who get raped in prison commiting adultery on their wives?

No, but women who are raped are guilty of adultery under Sharia law.

-Kelly


From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Wed Mar 28 02:46:46 2012
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 19:46:46 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Depressing set of memes
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB5+e4MA7Rc9vYO5H8Yh-DG3GqLwuUt2hYfXLxh_-aB21A@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Mar 25, 2012 at 4:17 PM,  Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> wrote:

>>> http://www.theoildrum.com/node/9046
>>>
>>> http://physics.ucsd.edu/do-the-math/2012/03/space-based-solar-power/#comment-5115

Snipets and my response.

> Consider such undertaking?s problems: another layer of complexity, unforeseen consequences , BAU delusion.

Worse than the consequences of not doing anything to replace dirty
fossil fuels with clean energy? SBSP isn?t any different than ground
solar or wind except it could be a lot less expensive.

> Earth provides, without us doing a single thing.

You are at least 8000 years out of date. The maximum human population
without ?doing a single thing? is of the order of 10 million. There
are lots of things a disbursed population of that size can?t do.
Certainly not computers, maybe not even writing.

^^^^^^^^^

I don't know if this is the dominate meme set in our culture, but it's
energy-sapping and depressing.  It may be the biggest factor in the
downfall of American culture.  Any ideas on  how to counter it?

Keith



From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Wed Mar 28 04:37:21 2012
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 21:37:21 -0700
Subject: [ExI] experiment regarding ethical behaviors vs status
In-Reply-To: <CAPy8Rwa2-McMVVe9H+E2uXXg0wCdZwnv-siYfXj5KpGXo=VtCg@mail.gmail.com>
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Eugen wrote:
I can tell you that I can't afford German cars, nevermind
luxury ones. I don't think you're driving a Cayenne or a BMW SUV
either.
>>>


Eugen, I thought you lived the life of the playboy scientist, that included
super-expensive cars, wine, women and song!  I know this about scientists
from watching Futurama and the Iron Man films.  ; )


Spike:
> Point: you can't tell a person's financial status by what she drives.


Eugen:
Yes, you can. Rich people buy a) *new* b) *latest-model* c) *big* luxury
model cars which will bankrupt poor people by fuel costs alone.
>>


I tend to agree with Spike, at least up to a point.  I remember the man who
was like a big brother to me growing up, who ran around in a beautiful
Mercedes that he bought for a song from a man in deep financial straits.
It looked really nice, and deeply impressed people in his trailer court.
lol  : )  While spending a couple of years in Louisiana, I had a landlord
who owned a Mercedes built right before WW2.  He had "liberated" it from a
German officer, during the last months of the war, and had managed to
somehow get it back to the States.  It was his pride and joy.


Anders:
>...We can do an interventional study. Please give me a lot of money, and we
>can tell whether I turn into a dick. -- Anders Sandberg,


Spike:
Anders this is impossible sir.  You have far too much residual nice hanging
all over you.  To extricate you from that deep pit of nice, that morass of
kindheartedness would be beyond reasonable national budgets and current
technology, regardless of how much filthy lucre we were to shower upon you.
We could not make you mean or aggressive any more than we could make the
three-toed sloth a carnivorous sprinter.  It's just deep within the basic
nature of the beast: sloths are slow, you are nice.
>>


I totally agree!  : )  In fact, I once did my own "niceness test" on
Anders, right in your home during Extropy 5, and he passed with flying
colors.  I totally bogarted the living room pc, to email lots of friends
about the conference!  I must have made poor Anders wait a good half hour
before I turned the computer over to him, despite his very polite
requests.  Anyone else would have choked me or broken a chair over my head,
but Anders simply inquired about my finishing soon a few times, with the
last request sounding just a little anxious.


I recently had a dream which I actually remembered (I normally don't),
where I had somehow achieved fame and fortune and I was going around being
an arrogant jerk to people.  I even "thought to myself" in the dream that I
was out of control.  I suppose this was my subconcious dealing with my
buried "Hyde" side.  I'm sure a "Freud droid" could have a field day
analyzing this dream of mine.


http://www.amazon.com/Remaking-Sigmund-Freud-Barry-Malzberg/dp/0345318617


Spike:
If d(nice)/dt is negatively correlated with d$/dt, then...
What we need are metrics for nice.  This would be a really interesting
artificial intelligence exercise.  Anders, I have followed your posts on ExI
for over 15 yrs now, and I have never seen a comment or word from you that
was unkind, even when unkind words would be amply justified.  You and Johnny
Grigg are the champions of nice, and I do deeply admire that, sir.
>>


Spike, thank you for the very kind words.  You certainly give me something
to live up to.


Spike:
Humans can easily estimate nice from reading archives, but can we write
software to measure nice?  We have a huge body of work to use as a test
subject, the ExI archives from about 2003.  We could get a group of
randomly-chosen readers to estimate a kindness metric between 1 and 10,
although I might have already accidentally wrecked it by identifying a
couple of high NQ scorers.  Would not it be cool to try to write a script
that can take those archives and match the general profile of the readers?
Any code hipsters have any ideas on how to do this?  If so it would be a
classic AI app: having an (apparently) unfeeling machine try to read human
language and measure a human emotion.
>>


I think we might need to wait a couple of decades for this to be truly
possible.  Or wait, we could have an Anders upload do it!  But he would be
too modest to name his source self as the winner.  : )


Kelly Anderson:
Deferred gratification is a key component to success. Rich have it
more than poor. Good math leads to rich people, another reason really
rich people buy used.
>>


I really enjoyed reading The Millionaire Mind and The Millionaire Next
Door, which strongly supported how being able to defer gratification, save
& invest money, not get divorced, buy used, and live relatively simply, are
all key factors to becoming wealthy.


Kelly Anderson:
As both a rich person and as a poor person, I always buy used. I
always pay cash. That's because I'm smart, and not stuck on the status
issue. Then again, maybe if I had a better car in college, I would
have attracted a saner girl, and that would have helped an awful
lot... LOL...
>>


Hmmm....  I knew of a guy in college who drove an extremely expensive
luxury car, and women would routinely leave notes on it, giving their names
and digits, with a message that he should call them up and arrange a date!
lol  But were these quality gals?  And in another instance, an ex-gf's
mother married her husband in college, because he promised her that he was
going places and would eventually become rich!  Well, he did get a PhD in
economics, but never really became wealthy (just borderline upper
middleclass), and she has spent the past forty years years making his life
highly unpleasant, in part because of his "broken" promise...


John
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From spike66 at att.net  Wed Mar 28 04:57:12 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 21:57:12 -0700
Subject: [ExI] experiment regarding ethical behaviors vs status
In-Reply-To: <CAGSKFy2-vgmKNKbOWeF1EkVnp7k1X1Msjq=9JGqHLgvNU_0dsA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <000001cd0b65$002e7720$008b6560$@att.net>
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Message-ID: <023301cd0c9f$3f6aa720$be3ff560$@att.net>

 

 

>. On Behalf Of John Grigg



>.I totally agree!  : )  In fact, I once did my own "niceness test" on
Anders, right in your home during Extropy 5, and he passed with flying
colors.  I totally bogarted the living room pc, to email lots of friends
about the conference!  I must have made poor Anders wait a good half hour
before I turned the computer over to him, despite his very polite requests.
Anyone else would have choked me or broken a chair over my head, but Anders
simply inquired about my finishing soon a few times, with the last request
sounding just a little anxious.John

 

Ah yes the bad old days when I had only two computers and a dial-up modem
for internet.  Now I have four computers, three of which are young and
competent, and cable.  The thing you should have mentioned is that Anders
was pitching at that conference and had actual work to do, whereas you were
merely goofing around.  {8^D  I too thought Anders' self-restraint was
admirable and far beyond what is expected of mere mortals.

 

John thanks for the reminder of good times man.

 

spike

 

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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Wed Mar 28 12:09:15 2012
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 05:09:15 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Film: Pirates! In an Adventure with Scientists (starring
	Charles Darwin)
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy17yiQVDhSGVsjwBhsJYTxL6c2QgaXBtMo84ak_qLK5sQ@mail.gmail.com>

This sounds like an absolutely wonderful family film!  I envision Spike
watching it with his son...  : )


http://www.newscientist.com/blogs/culturelab/2012/03/the-pirates-in-an-adventure-with-scientists.html



The Hollywood pitch for this movie would be pretty simple: it?s *Pirates of
the Caribbean* meets *Walace and Gromit*.

But in fact, it?s even better than that. *The Pirates! In an Adventure with
Scientists <http://www.thepirates-movie.co.uk/>* is an absolute treat from
start<http://www.newscientist.com/blogs/culturelab/2012/03/the-pirates-in-an-adventure-with-scientists.html#>to
finish: daft, funny, clever and visually stunning.

The story begins in 1837 with the pirates, a hapless crew of buccaneers led
by the equally hapless pirate captain. He is
desperate<http://www.newscientist.com/blogs/culturelab/2012/03/the-pirates-in-an-adventure-with-scientists.html#>to
win the Pirate of the Year award but cannot seem to plunder a single
doubloon.

Their blundering eventually leads them to board The Beagle, where they meet
a nerdy young naturalist by the name of Charles Darwin. As the captain
laments that he has plundered yet another ship with no treasure (unless you
count a baboon?s kidney), Darwin notices that the pirates have something
even more precious in their possession: a pet ?parrot?, Polly, that is
actually a dodo<http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg13918884.300-justice-at-last-for-the-dodo.html>
.

Thus begins a rollicking tale of greed, double-crossing and slapstick
adventure that leads The Pirates! into the heart of Victorian London?s
science circles and beyond, all the way to Blood Island and the award
ceremony for Pirate of the Year.

*The Pirates!* is instantly recognisable as an
Aardman<http://www.aardman.com/>movie - director Peter Lord also made
*Chicken Run* and *Wallace & Gromit: The Curse of the Were-Rabbit* - but by
adding CGI and 3D to its trademark claymation technique the animators have
upped the ante on their already astonishingly high standards.

Science and scientists are central to the plot, and as with all things
Aardman the attention to detail is painstaking. Darwin really looks like
Darwin and the movie is full of subtle references to his life and works;
when The Pirates! gatecrash the Royal Society (motto: ?Playing God Since
1660?), it is accurately set at Somerset House on the Strand in London,
where the Society was based for most of the 19th century. Michael Faraday
and other luminaries of Victorian science make recognisable cameo
appearances.

But you don?t need to know anything about science (except that dodos were
extinct by 1837) to enjoy this movie. It?s brilliant - absolutely brilliant
- family entertainment. My two sons, aged 9 and 11, have seen pretty much
every animated movie ever made. They both thought this was the best yet.

And there?s more where that came from. The movie is an adaptation of a 2004
novel<http://www.amazon.com/The-Pirates-In-Adventure-Scientists/dp/0375423214>by
Gideon
Defoe <http://www.gideondefoe.com/index.htm>, the first of a series of four
Pirates! adventures. A sequel is already in the works. The scientists will
be missed, but I for one can?t wait.

*The Pirates! in an Adventure with
Scientists<http://www.thepirates-movie.co.uk/>
* opens Wednesday 28 March in cinemas throughout the UK. Learn more
about opening
dates in other countries <http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1430626/releaseinfo>
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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Wed Mar 28 12:46:15 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 14:46:15 +0200
Subject: [ExI] The NSA's new data center
In-Reply-To: <20120327095723.GC17245@leitl.org>
References: <201203241528.q2OFStlk023463@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
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On 27 March 2012 11:57, Eugen Leitl <eugen at leitl.org> wrote:

> This is why we need rigid laws protecting privacy. Technology
> cannot route around broken politics.
>

The problem is that privacy is a doctrine at war with itself.

Take for instance the EU regulations in this respect.

While the States obviously maintain in full their factual and even legal
power to spy on you and process your personal data, provided at best that
some procedural steps are complied with and that no private-interest use is
made of such data (and even that really pertains only to using the
information for evidentiary purposes), *the enforcement of privacy rules
would basically mean that the State has one more additional reason and
legal right (heck, a legal *obligation*) to put its nose in your PC or
network* in order to check what you are doing with them (you could be
engaging in illegal personal data processing or surveillance, couldn't
you?).

Now, I do maintain that attempts at their enforcement are anyway becoming
increasingly futile, owing to technological progress.

But in the meantime, the regulations in place are pretty useful to limit
transparency, blackmail people, indict whistle-blowers, try and control the
circulation of information, etc.

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From kellycoinguy at gmail.com  Wed Mar 28 15:16:44 2012
From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 09:16:44 -0600
Subject: [ExI] The NSA's new data center
In-Reply-To: <CAPoR7a7Vvn61=wbrRgC9E0Sp+vxKw_GTU1cH9wqha+8G=pZNVg@mail.gmail.com>
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2012/3/28 Stefano Vaj <stefano.vaj at gmail.com>:
> But in the meantime, the regulations in place are pretty useful to limit
> transparency, blackmail people, indict whistle-blowers, try and control the
> circulation of information, etc.

In the LONG term, isn't absolute complete transparency of everyone and
everything the only real answer? The trend seems to be away from
personal privacy, away from government secrecy, towards open sharing.
Is this trend something that can be stopped? Is it something that
SHOULD be stopped? When individuals obtain the requisite technology to
wipe out all intelligent life, is privacy sustainable?

Asking it a different way. If everyone in the world had a button, that
if pushed would end the world, how long would the world last? Knowing
that the answer is "seconds, if that long"... and knowing that
individuals will likely obtain such technology some day in the not too
distant future... Could privacy survive in such a world? Should
privacy be allowed to survive in such a world?

My motto, "Privacy is dead, get over it."

If DCFS would install and monitor cameras in every room of my house, I
would let them. Why? Because it would protect me from their wild
imaginations! I'd rather let them in on all my so called "secrets"
than have them assume that I have secrets that I don't possess in
actuality. That's because they have absolute power over everything I
really care about, my family. I might request that I have my own
little private space for bathing and personal time... but eventually,
I think I could get over even that. Look at how quickly people on
reality TV get used to the cameras and just get on with their lives.
We'll ALL be reality TV stars in the future is my prediction.

In no way would I give up rights, but I don't see privacy as an
absolute right. Then maybe we'll get over this idea that we're not
just smart bipedal apes, but rather somehow special.

-Kelly


From sparge at gmail.com  Wed Mar 28 15:24:40 2012
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 11:24:40 -0400
Subject: [ExI] The NSA's new data center
In-Reply-To: <CAPy8RwaQXt9WYtEXr5vwGNVb7jLzf45vRetQe3RLT2sR=N02wg@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CAPy8RwbtAVMNzqONE--hXciR7AAX3URP_pesFXHBRV5wc8uvWg@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CAPoR7a4TKNAe6wyGXJcMjG-+7BxX+6usjxkV-Oiy3DE58mr4qA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120327095723.GC17245@leitl.org>
 <CAPoR7a7Vvn61=wbrRgC9E0Sp+vxKw_GTU1cH9wqha+8G=pZNVg@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAM5aL2d-dL4deUu4d62pM2k6QVw1A9tr2U--UO3K84AzAy61HQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 11:16 AM, Kelly Anderson <kellycoinguy at gmail.com>wrote:

> My motto, "Privacy is dead, get over it."
>

It's not dead yet. And we may well be better off without it, but the
process of getting there is going to be painful, and not just to those
whose place a high value on their own privacy.

-Dave
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From pharos at gmail.com  Wed Mar 28 15:51:16 2012
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 15:51:16 +0000
Subject: [ExI] The NSA's new data center
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2d-dL4deUu4d62pM2k6QVw1A9tr2U--UO3K84AzAy61HQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <201203241528.q2OFStlk023463@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <20120324154627.GL9891@leitl.org>
 <201203241613.q2OGDuc6013513@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <CAPoR7a4zAHiE-LZSqX4MZ7ZowN7gc5v4H-ATecs+dxFecosW7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <201203241725.q2OHP6Ve010600@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <CALAdGNQggXL-R64g64mwLKGeZgXw=Rjfo0dUYBP-iHggBUoREA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPy8RwbtAVMNzqONE--hXciR7AAX3URP_pesFXHBRV5wc8uvWg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120325090553.GI9891@leitl.org> <4F70671A.5060600@aleph.se>
 <CAPoR7a4TKNAe6wyGXJcMjG-+7BxX+6usjxkV-Oiy3DE58mr4qA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120327095723.GC17245@leitl.org>
 <CAPoR7a7Vvn61=wbrRgC9E0Sp+vxKw_GTU1cH9wqha+8G=pZNVg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPy8RwaQXt9WYtEXr5vwGNVb7jLzf45vRetQe3RLT2sR=N02wg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2d-dL4deUu4d62pM2k6QVw1A9tr2U--UO3K84AzAy61HQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armjOxGmbHnKdeZtHPVT66k-7xMD_zC1caLq0U6Nmuv1j=Q@mail.gmail.com>

2012/3/28 Dave Sill wrote:
> It's not dead yet. And we may well be better off without it, but the process
> of getting there is going to be painful, and not just to those whose place a
> high value on their own privacy.
>
>

The latest shock-horror is employers demanding the Facebook logons of
prospective employees, so that they can be vetted before getting a job
offer.

And the Republicans say that's just fine with them.
Republicans shoot down proposed ban on Facebook login boss-snoop
<http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/03/28/facebook_employer_passwords_amendment/>

Facebook and Goog+ have been insisting that people must use real names
so that advertising can be targeted at them via their life history
database.

So...... people cannot even make up two signons, one for 'public'
personas for employers, teachers, mother, police, etc. and one for
'private' contacts. This means that on Facebook and Goog+ people must
always behave in a fashion suitable for employers , teachers, etc.
No more private friendly banter for you!

BillK


From mrjones2020 at gmail.com  Wed Mar 28 16:03:18 2012
From: mrjones2020 at gmail.com (J.R. Jones)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 12:03:18 -0400
Subject: [ExI] The NSA's new data center
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armjOxGmbHnKdeZtHPVT66k-7xMD_zC1caLq0U6Nmuv1j=Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <201203241528.q2OFStlk023463@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <20120324154627.GL9891@leitl.org>
 <201203241613.q2OGDuc6013513@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <CAPoR7a4zAHiE-LZSqX4MZ7ZowN7gc5v4H-ATecs+dxFecosW7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <201203241725.q2OHP6Ve010600@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <CALAdGNQggXL-R64g64mwLKGeZgXw=Rjfo0dUYBP-iHggBUoREA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPy8RwbtAVMNzqONE--hXciR7AAX3URP_pesFXHBRV5wc8uvWg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120325090553.GI9891@leitl.org> <4F70671A.5060600@aleph.se>
 <CAPoR7a4TKNAe6wyGXJcMjG-+7BxX+6usjxkV-Oiy3DE58mr4qA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120327095723.GC17245@leitl.org>
 <CAPoR7a7Vvn61=wbrRgC9E0Sp+vxKw_GTU1cH9wqha+8G=pZNVg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPy8RwaQXt9WYtEXr5vwGNVb7jLzf45vRetQe3RLT2sR=N02wg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2d-dL4deUu4d62pM2k6QVw1A9tr2U--UO3K84AzAy61HQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armjOxGmbHnKdeZtHPVT66k-7xMD_zC1caLq0U6Nmuv1j=Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CADDVf2JU62SytGoT5TE36_-qDjitAuZ_o46HYFvpp+9DVPFY6A@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 11:51 AM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:

> This means that on Facebook and Goog+ people must
> always behave in a fashion suitable for employers , teachers, etc.
> No more private friendly banter for you!
>

Or, that we need to mature as a species, and learn to accept all multitudes
of differences in perspective and expectations we all have from one
another. With transparency, I think, would come a new found respect and/or
understanding of what it means to be an individual.  Certainly, as time
progressed we'd become similar in many ways.  But my hope is that these
changes towards a more similar society, would be guided by some of the
brightest minds humanity has to offer.
I can deal with bad news.  Even horrible news.  What I can't deal with, by
definition, is news I'm not even aware of.  Bring on the
transparency/accountability.  Let's start being 'real'.
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From eugen at leitl.org  Wed Mar 28 17:09:54 2012
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 19:09:54 +0200
Subject: [ExI] The NSA's new data center
In-Reply-To: <CAPoR7a7Vvn61=wbrRgC9E0Sp+vxKw_GTU1cH9wqha+8G=pZNVg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <201203241613.q2OGDuc6013513@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <CAPoR7a4zAHiE-LZSqX4MZ7ZowN7gc5v4H-ATecs+dxFecosW7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <201203241725.q2OHP6Ve010600@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <CALAdGNQggXL-R64g64mwLKGeZgXw=Rjfo0dUYBP-iHggBUoREA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPy8RwbtAVMNzqONE--hXciR7AAX3URP_pesFXHBRV5wc8uvWg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120325090553.GI9891@leitl.org> <4F70671A.5060600@aleph.se>
 <CAPoR7a4TKNAe6wyGXJcMjG-+7BxX+6usjxkV-Oiy3DE58mr4qA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120327095723.GC17245@leitl.org>
 <CAPoR7a7Vvn61=wbrRgC9E0Sp+vxKw_GTU1cH9wqha+8G=pZNVg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120328170954.GB14482@leitl.org>

On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 02:46:15PM +0200, Stefano Vaj wrote:

> The problem is that privacy is a doctrine at war with itself.

I do not see why.
 
> Take for instance the EU regulations in this respect.

As the EU is a largely self-perpetuating bureaucracy with
a very large (and growing) democracy deficit passing the best
laws money can buy we should actively ignore anything coming
out of Brussels for our sanity's reasons alone.
 
> While the States obviously maintain in full their factual and even legal
> power to spy on you and process your personal data, provided at best that

They do not seem to concern with legality overmuch. The legislation
pattern does start looking ominously like we've last seen in Weimar.
(This doesn't mean that this have to end like Weimar).

> some procedural steps are complied with and that no private-interest use is
> made of such data (and even that really pertains only to using the

Individual usage of data is fine. Institutional (whether federal or
corporate) is distinctly not.

> information for evidentiary purposes), *the enforcement of privacy rules
> would basically mean that the State has one more additional reason and
> legal right (heck, a legal *obligation*) to put its nose in your PC or

Personal and NGO IT is off-limits to federal and corporate interests.
There's considerable conflict of interest even with federal oversight
of itself, and in practice the data protection officers have no teeth.

> network* in order to check what you are doing with them (you could be
> engaging in illegal personal data processing or surveillance, couldn't
> you?).

Not as an individual or a small group, no. As a corporation, yes.
 
> Now, I do maintain that attempts at their enforcement are anyway becoming
> increasingly futile, owing to technological progress.

I don't see why, once a violation is detected you can send people
to jail for a long time, and a few billions EUR here and there do
add up to some real money. 
 
> But in the meantime, the regulations in place are pretty useful to limit
> transparency, blackmail people, indict whistle-blowers, try and control the
> circulation of information, etc.

It is not very difficult to leak information tracelessly, even though
the treatment of Manning and Assange (both travesties of justice resembling
what was once routine under Stalin, Mao, Hitler and similar scum) definitely
had some chilling effect. But also a radicalization effect.

We should also definitely thank the fine content monopoly lobbies 
for their tireless attempts to establish censorship infrastructure. 
Boneheadead, hamfisted attempts like that will further fuel the meteoric 
rise of Pirate Parties and robust anonymization overlays for the Internet.


From eugen at leitl.org  Wed Mar 28 17:37:03 2012
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 19:37:03 +0200
Subject: [ExI] The NSA's new data center
In-Reply-To: <CADDVf2JU62SytGoT5TE36_-qDjitAuZ_o46HYFvpp+9DVPFY6A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPy8RwbtAVMNzqONE--hXciR7AAX3URP_pesFXHBRV5wc8uvWg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120325090553.GI9891@leitl.org> <4F70671A.5060600@aleph.se>
 <CAPoR7a4TKNAe6wyGXJcMjG-+7BxX+6usjxkV-Oiy3DE58mr4qA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120327095723.GC17245@leitl.org>
 <CAPoR7a7Vvn61=wbrRgC9E0Sp+vxKw_GTU1cH9wqha+8G=pZNVg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPy8RwaQXt9WYtEXr5vwGNVb7jLzf45vRetQe3RLT2sR=N02wg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2d-dL4deUu4d62pM2k6QVw1A9tr2U--UO3K84AzAy61HQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armjOxGmbHnKdeZtHPVT66k-7xMD_zC1caLq0U6Nmuv1j=Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADDVf2JU62SytGoT5TE36_-qDjitAuZ_o46HYFvpp+9DVPFY6A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120328173702.GM14482@leitl.org>

On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 12:03:18PM -0400, J.R. Jones wrote:

> Or, that we need to mature as a species, and learn to accept all multitudes
> of differences in perspective and expectations we all have from one
> another. With transparency, I think, would come a new found respect and/or

I think total transparency is the most naive horse pucky (RIP, Robert)
I've heard in a longest while.

> understanding of what it means to be an individual.  Certainly, as time
> progressed we'd become similar in many ways.  But my hope is that these
> changes towards a more similar society, would be guided by some of the
> brightest minds humanity has to offer.

That has a tendency to become pretty ugly, in the retrospect, in history books.

> I can deal with bad news.  Even horrible news.  What I can't deal with, by
> definition, is news I'm not even aware of.  Bring on the
> transparency/accountability.  Let's start being 'real'.

In practice, all people are real. 

Only some are realer than the others.

And that kills it. Only the dumbest livestock picks their own location and method of slaughter.


From lubkin at unreasonable.com  Wed Mar 28 17:58:29 2012
From: lubkin at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 13:58:29 -0400
Subject: [ExI] The NSA's new data center
In-Reply-To: <20120328173702.GM14482@leitl.org>
References: <CAPy8RwbtAVMNzqONE--hXciR7AAX3URP_pesFXHBRV5wc8uvWg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120325090553.GI9891@leitl.org> <4F70671A.5060600@aleph.se>
 <CAPoR7a4TKNAe6wyGXJcMjG-+7BxX+6usjxkV-Oiy3DE58mr4qA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120327095723.GC17245@leitl.org>
 <CAPoR7a7Vvn61=wbrRgC9E0Sp+vxKw_GTU1cH9wqha+8G=pZNVg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPy8RwaQXt9WYtEXr5vwGNVb7jLzf45vRetQe3RLT2sR=N02wg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2d-dL4deUu4d62pM2k6QVw1A9tr2U--UO3K84AzAy61HQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armjOxGmbHnKdeZtHPVT66k-7xMD_zC1caLq0U6Nmuv1j=Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADDVf2JU62SytGoT5TE36_-qDjitAuZ_o46HYFvpp+9DVPFY6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120328173702.GM14482@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <201203281758.q2SHwaoL000911@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

Eugen wrote:

>Only the dumbest livestock picks their own location and method of slaughter.

To paraphrase Lenin.


-- David.



From spike66 at att.net  Wed Mar 28 18:26:08 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 11:26:08 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The NSA's new data center
In-Reply-To: <20120328173702.GM14482@leitl.org>
References: <CAPy8RwbtAVMNzqONE--hXciR7AAX3URP_pesFXHBRV5wc8uvWg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120325090553.GI9891@leitl.org> <4F70671A.5060600@aleph.se>
 <CAPoR7a4TKNAe6wyGXJcMjG-+7BxX+6usjxkV-Oiy3DE58mr4qA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120327095723.GC17245@leitl.org>
 <CAPoR7a7Vvn61=wbrRgC9E0Sp+vxKw_GTU1cH9wqha+8G=pZNVg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPy8RwaQXt9WYtEXr5vwGNVb7jLzf45vRetQe3RLT2sR=N02wg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2d-dL4deUu4d62pM2k6QVw1A9tr2U--UO3K84AzAy61HQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armjOxGmbHnKdeZtHPVT66k-7xMD_zC1caLq0U6Nmuv1j=Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADDVf2JU62SytGoT5TE36_-qDjitAuZ_o46HYFvpp+9DVPFY6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120328173702.GM14482@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <00f301cd0d10$3f1263a0$bd372ae0$@att.net>


>... On Behalf Of Eugen Leitl

>>...On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 12:03:18PM -0400, J.R. Jones wrote:

>>... With transparency, I think, would come a new found respect ...

>...I think total transparency is the most naive horse pucky (RIP, Robert)
I've heard in a longest while... Eugen Leitl


We know we cannot stop all data leakage, so perhaps a better strategy for
privacy fans is intentional obscuration.  I have friends over to my house
regularly, and have them do Google searches on whatever they want, just to
clutter the profile, like camo on a tank or a soldier putting foliage on his
helmet.  Same for posts, including posts to ExI-chat.  If anyone ever asks
me if I wrote something, intentional obscuration redirects the power back to
myself.  I can ask to see the comment, then I have the option of owning it
or not recalling having written that comment.  In general I think this is a
more effective strategy than stopping all data leakage.

Even if one does not practice intentional obscuration, the other guy does
not know that, or cannot prove it.

What would be even better is if some of you code-hipster privacy fans can
figure out a way to arrange for others to log on as me elsewhere and still
make it become part of my online profile and my search history.  That would
be a kick!  Become a melded generic extropian avatar, our search histories a
superset of all those currently reading these words.  The presence of that
tech would discourage the data snoops, for their whole exercise of
data-mining and search profiling would become pointless.

Extra credit if our alternate selves are on another continent.

Eugen, how do we do it?  Can I just post you my passwords?

spike




From mrjones2020 at gmail.com  Wed Mar 28 18:43:49 2012
From: mrjones2020 at gmail.com (J.R. Jones)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 14:43:49 -0400
Subject: [ExI] The NSA's new data center
In-Reply-To: <20120328173702.GM14482@leitl.org>
References: <CAPy8RwbtAVMNzqONE--hXciR7AAX3URP_pesFXHBRV5wc8uvWg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120325090553.GI9891@leitl.org> <4F70671A.5060600@aleph.se>
 <CAPoR7a4TKNAe6wyGXJcMjG-+7BxX+6usjxkV-Oiy3DE58mr4qA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120327095723.GC17245@leitl.org>
 <CAPoR7a7Vvn61=wbrRgC9E0Sp+vxKw_GTU1cH9wqha+8G=pZNVg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPy8RwaQXt9WYtEXr5vwGNVb7jLzf45vRetQe3RLT2sR=N02wg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2d-dL4deUu4d62pM2k6QVw1A9tr2U--UO3K84AzAy61HQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armjOxGmbHnKdeZtHPVT66k-7xMD_zC1caLq0U6Nmuv1j=Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADDVf2JU62SytGoT5TE36_-qDjitAuZ_o46HYFvpp+9DVPFY6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120328173702.GM14482@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <CADDVf2LvKE_Vb2-eCG_YnXSW8VZ2YzOaqdhHSjcfXdGHONNrUw@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 1:37 PM, Eugen Leitl <eugen at leitl.org> wrote:

> On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 12:03:18PM -0400, J.R. Jones wrote:
>
> > Or, that we need to mature as a species, and learn to accept all
> multitudes
> > of differences in perspective and expectations we all have from one
> > another. With transparency, I think, would come a new found respect
> and/or
>
> I think total transparency is the most naive horse pucky (RIP, Robert)
> I've heard in a longest while.
>

Oh, I see some extreme difficulties with it myself.  Instead then, how
about transparency that increases/decreases alongside power/influence?


>
> > understanding of what it means to be an individual.  Certainly, as time
> > progressed we'd become similar in many ways.  But my hope is that these
> > changes towards a more similar society, would be guided by some of the
> > brightest minds humanity has to offer.
>
> That has a tendency to become pretty ugly, in the retrospect, in history
> books.
>

I think this ties in with my above statement.  Did these events in history
books happen despite transparency?  My guess is that many
details/actors/variables were kept hidden/non-existent to those outside.


>
> > I can deal with bad news.  Even horrible news.  What I can't deal with,
> by
> > definition, is news I'm not even aware of.  Bring on the
> > transparency/accountability.  Let's start being 'real'.
>
> In practice, all people are real.
>

True.  Less manipulative perhaps then?  Genuine?


>
> Only some are realer than the others.
>
> And that kills it. Only the dumbest livestock picks their own location and
> method of slaughter.
>
>
Or control freaks?
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From mrjones2020 at gmail.com  Wed Mar 28 18:47:12 2012
From: mrjones2020 at gmail.com (J.R. Jones)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 14:47:12 -0400
Subject: [ExI] The NSA's new data center
In-Reply-To: <00f301cd0d10$3f1263a0$bd372ae0$@att.net>
References: <CAPy8RwbtAVMNzqONE--hXciR7AAX3URP_pesFXHBRV5wc8uvWg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120325090553.GI9891@leitl.org> <4F70671A.5060600@aleph.se>
 <CAPoR7a4TKNAe6wyGXJcMjG-+7BxX+6usjxkV-Oiy3DE58mr4qA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120327095723.GC17245@leitl.org>
 <CAPoR7a7Vvn61=wbrRgC9E0Sp+vxKw_GTU1cH9wqha+8G=pZNVg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPy8RwaQXt9WYtEXr5vwGNVb7jLzf45vRetQe3RLT2sR=N02wg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2d-dL4deUu4d62pM2k6QVw1A9tr2U--UO3K84AzAy61HQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armjOxGmbHnKdeZtHPVT66k-7xMD_zC1caLq0U6Nmuv1j=Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADDVf2JU62SytGoT5TE36_-qDjitAuZ_o46HYFvpp+9DVPFY6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120328173702.GM14482@leitl.org> <00f301cd0d10$3f1263a0$bd372ae0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CADDVf2LKS3dgh3pyk1duxDBR_VAiZOk_XHXLoUzGXNCfxYHUpQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 2:26 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

>
> >... On Behalf Of Eugen Leitl
>
> >>...On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 12:03:18PM -0400, J.R. Jones wrote:
>
> >>... With transparency, I think, would come a new found respect ...
>
> >...I think total transparency is the most naive horse pucky (RIP, Robert)
> I've heard in a longest while... Eugen Leitl
>
>
> We know we cannot stop all data leakage, so perhaps a better strategy for
> privacy fans is intentional obscuration.  I have friends over to my house
> regularly, and have them do Google searches on whatever they want, just to
> clutter the profile, like camo on a tank or a soldier putting foliage on
> his
> helmet.  Same for posts, including posts to ExI-chat.  If anyone ever asks
> me if I wrote something, intentional obscuration redirects the power back
> to
> myself.  I can ask to see the comment, then I have the option of owning it
> or not recalling having written that comment.  In general I think this is a
> more effective strategy than stopping all data leakage.
>
> Even if one does not practice intentional obscuration, the other guy does
> not know that, or cannot prove it.
>
> What would be even better is if some of you code-hipster privacy fans can
> figure out a way to arrange for others to log on as me elsewhere and still
> make it become part of my online profile and my search history.  That would
> be a kick!  Become a melded generic extropian avatar, our search histories
> a
> superset of all those currently reading these words.  The presence of that
> tech would discourage the data snoops, for their whole exercise of
> data-mining and search profiling would become pointless.
>
> Extra credit if our alternate selves are on another continent.
>
> Eugen, how do we do it?  Can I just post you my passwords?
>
> spike


Run a tor exit node.  It won't put these searches and such on your
particular credentials as far as google is concerned, but it'd add the
traffic to your network tap, for whoever is watching your pipe.
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From spike66 at att.net  Wed Mar 28 20:22:17 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 13:22:17 -0700
Subject: [ExI] experiment regarding ethical behaviors vs status
References: <000001cd0b65$002e7720$008b6560$@att.net>
 <4F70EABB.5050708@aleph.se> <005e01cd0ba0$6a7640a0$3f62c1e0$@att.net>
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 <4F71E60A.10704@aleph.se> <00b901cd0c3c$20ebd570$62c38050$@att.net>
 <4F7257AE.4000404@aleph.se> 
Message-ID: <013201cd0d20$792ab910$6b802b30$@att.net>


On 27/03/2012 18:07, spike wrote:
>
>> ... It's just deep within the basic nature of the beast: sloths are slow,
[Anders] you are nice.  {8^D  ...If d(nice)/dt is negatively correlated with
d$/dt, then...What we need are metrics for nice...Any code hipsters have any
ideas on how to do this?  If so it would be a classic AI app: having an
(apparently) unfeeling machine try to read human language and measure a
human emotion...spike

OK I have an idea how we can do this, a rather simple-minded approach to
start with.  We need to grab a big glob of text written by a poster who each
of us identify as a kindhearted soul, and another glob written by someone we
identify as a harsh edgy sort.  Don't post who it is, no need of hurting
feelings, and no need of inflating egos of those who take pride in being a
mean bastard.  Each will have their own extremes.  Then we write our
heuristics in such a way as to search for word-level and phrase-level
similarities between the test text and the two extremes.

For instance, it might be as easy as matching single words first.  For
instance the test specimen matches words for Mister Nice Guy at 12 percent
and only 8 percent for the mean bastard, that criterion gets about a
12/(8+12) or 6.67 score on a 0 to 10 scale.  Then go to two word phrases,
same game.  Then if I can figure out how to code this, create a lookup table
list of stock phrases, such as "...you are bat-shit crazy..." which would
reduce the niceness score of the poster.  This isn't perfect, for it would
reduce the niceness score of a poster even if they were technically telling
the truth (they were replying to a post written by someone was actually
bat-shit crazy.)  There may be more diplomatic ways to express the same
meme, such as "I respectfully wish to disagree with your notion in this case
sir, which compels me to compare your general mental health to that of the
digestive products of a familiar insectivorous class of winged mammals known
to be threatened by habitat destruction."

The latter would perhaps score higher on the niceness scale than the former.

Code hipsters, ideas please?

spike 



From nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Mar 28 20:36:15 2012
From: nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk (Tom Nowell)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 21:36:15 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [ExI] The Higgs Boson *is* the singularity
In-Reply-To: <mailman.205.1332960648.17650.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.205.1332960648.17650.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <1332966975.71808.YahooMailNeo@web132103.mail.ird.yahoo.com>

Before you skip this message, let me assure you I have never advocated such a thing. Let me tell you how I heard this immortal sentence in my local library.

I became unemployed two weeks ago. After firing off a few online job applications, I like to go to my local library to peruse books and read newspapers. I was reading the Financial Times for the energy news, when I overheard a man say "The Higgs Boson *is* the singularity!" My first reaction was "did he just mention the singularity?" My next reaction was "That doesn't make sense! It's not even wrong!" Perhaps I was being uncharitable - perhaps he meant it in a purely mathematical way and was describing mathematical physics. No, it became clear on listening the white-haired man was telling the younger man a mix of cosmology, theology and technobabble. "Is God matter, dark matter, antimatter? You understand these things, you read." Being British, I was of course far too reserved to interrupt their conversation and point out that a creator deity / great simulator is free to construct their universe as they see fit and can emulate it on whatever substrate
 they feel like. As the conversation runs on, I wonder how the thoughts and jargon got into the older man's head to construct these arguments.

?He tries to get the younger man to look at a website on the library computer - at this point I suddenly get the urge to return the newspaper to the stand and walk past the computer they are looking at. I see in white the word "ZEITGEIST" against a black background and it becomes clear - the old guy has seen the Zeitgeist movement's material, tried to mesh it with his own cosmology and is making a really bad job of explaining it to a stranger in a library.?

Brothers and Sisters and post-gendered relatives in Extropy, I had a failure of nerve and did not take this chance to steer the two men towards a more solidly Transhumanist viewpoint. I have failed in the great commission to evangelise our beliefs. That, and I'm not sure directing them to H+ magazine's website would make an effective quick answer, and I didn't want to spend hours carefully explaining the finer points of philosophy to them, especially when the older guy made me wonder if he was on antipsychotic medication.

I have a feeling that when singularity thinking meets the local eccentric folk, this sort of thing could happen quite often.

Tom
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From steinberg.will at gmail.com  Wed Mar 28 20:59:38 2012
From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 15:59:38 -0500
Subject: [ExI] The Higgs Boson *is* the singularity
In-Reply-To: <1332966975.71808.YahooMailNeo@web132103.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.205.1332960648.17650.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <1332966975.71808.YahooMailNeo@web132103.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAKrqSyHLX5qhM=0VtSTMUhRe95GScMep4rPsMrho2KKKDEy5zA@mail.gmail.com>

Use Theosophy.  Everything is a little bit right, you just have to tease it
apart from the crazy.  I'm sure "the higgs boson is the singularity", a
totally unfalsifiable sentence, could inspire some physicist somewhere to
realize a true and innovative idea.  Maybe the secret of mass is the secret
of the universe, crystalline automata, simulations, sudden consciousness
shifts...yadda yadda. ;)
 On Mar 28, 2012 3:49 PM, "Tom Nowell" <nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

> Before you skip this message, let me assure you I have never advocated
> such a thing. Let me tell you how I heard this immortal sentence in my
> local library.
>
> I became unemployed two weeks ago. After firing off a few online job
> applications, I like to go to my local library to peruse books and read
> newspapers. I was reading the Financial Times for the energy news, when I
> overheard a man say "The Higgs Boson *is* the singularity!" My first
> reaction was "did he just mention the singularity?" My next reaction was
> "That doesn't make sense! It's not even wrong!" Perhaps I was being
> uncharitable - perhaps he meant it in a purely mathematical way and was
> describing mathematical physics. No, it became clear on listening the
> white-haired man was telling the younger man a mix of cosmology, theology
> and technobabble. "Is God matter, dark matter, antimatter? You understand
> these things, you read." Being British, I was of course far too reserved to
> interrupt their conversation and point out that a creator deity / great
> simulator is free to construct their universe as they see fit and can
> emulate it on whatever substrate they feel like. As the conversation runs
> on, I wonder how the thoughts and jargon got into the older man's head to
> construct these arguments.
>
>  He tries to get the younger man to look at a website on the library
> computer - at this point I suddenly get the urge to return the newspaper to
> the stand and walk past the computer they are looking at. I see in white
> the word "ZEITGEIST" against a black background and it becomes clear - the
> old guy has seen the Zeitgeist movement's material, tried to mesh it with
> his own cosmology and is making a really bad job of explaining it to a
> stranger in a library.
>
> Brothers and Sisters and post-gendered relatives in Extropy, I had a
> failure of nerve and did not take this chance to steer the two men towards
> a more solidly Transhumanist viewpoint. I have failed in the great
> commission to evangelise our beliefs. That, and I'm not sure directing them
> to H+ magazine's website would make an effective quick answer, and I didn't
> want to spend hours carefully explaining the finer points of philosophy to
> them, especially when the older guy made me wonder if he was on
> antipsychotic medication.
>
> I have a feeling that when singularity thinking meets the local eccentric
> folk, this sort of thing could happen quite often.
>
> Tom
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Wed Mar 28 22:56:37 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 00:56:37 +0200
Subject: [ExI] The NSA's new data center
In-Reply-To: <20120328170954.GB14482@leitl.org>
References: <201203241613.q2OGDuc6013513@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <CAPoR7a4zAHiE-LZSqX4MZ7ZowN7gc5v4H-ATecs+dxFecosW7g@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAPoR7a7drQiEb0p9kezUBDXhAN2+dEP9qkdeXABJxvBr8nwLDw@mail.gmail.com>

On 28 March 2012 19:09, Eugen Leitl <eugen at leitl.org> wrote:

> On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 02:46:15PM +0200, Stefano Vaj wrote:
>
> > The problem is that privacy is a doctrine at war with itself.
>
> I do not see why.
>

How do you check that Mr. Smith's privacy is not being infringed? By
violating the privacy of Mr. Jones, Mr. White, the rest of the world and
its dog to check that they are not in the process of illegally processing
Mr. Smith's data.

> power to spy on you and process your personal data, provided at best that
>
> > While the States obviously maintain in full their factual and even legal
> They do not seem to concern with legality overmuch. The legislation
> pattern does start looking ominously like we've last seen in Weimar.
> (This doesn't mean that this have to end like Weimar).
>

Yes. But the point is: do privacy regulations actually limit the power of
States in respect of snooping? No. If anything, they provide for and
sanction for State control upon it (in terms of monopoly and/or of
regulating anybody else engaged in such activities).

>
> > some procedural steps are complied with and that no private-interest use
> is
> > made of such data (and even that really pertains only to using the
>
> Individual usage of data is fine. Institutional (whether federal or
> corporate) is distinctly not.
>

Abusing, eg, police database for private, individual reasons is illegal.
But no limit exist as to the use of such database for police official
purposes.

> network* in order to check what you are doing with them (you could be
> > engaging in illegal personal data processing or surveillance, couldn't
> > you?).
>
> Not as an individual or a small group, no. As a corporation, yes.
>

Individuals and small groups are as subject to privacy regulations as
anybody else. One could even say that they are the only parties actually
affected by such regulations and exposed to their enforcements.

>
> > Now, I do maintain that attempts at their enforcement are anyway becoming
> > increasingly futile, owing to technological progress.
>
> I don't see why, once a violation is detected you can send people
> to jail for a long time, and a few billions EUR here and there do
> add up to some real money.
>

The war on drugs or the prohibition were not so successful, I do not expect
the enforcement of restrictive regulations on personal data processing to
be much more, given that technology is making surveillance devices cheap,
ubiquitous, accessible to anybody, and almost impossible to detect.

The stupidest client, policeman, criminal, bailiff, opposing counsel,
prosecutor, private detective, are already now in a position to record
whatever I tell them with things that would hardly come up with a summary
search.

With marginally more effort, unless I take extraordinary measure which are
increasingly expensive and burdensome, they are as well in a position to
intercept what I tell others.

As I already mentioned, the only consolation I can have in this respect is
that the information collected illegally may not be admissible as evidence,
especially if the collectors does not want to expose themselves.

But if I were to rely on the idea that this is not going to happen because
it is "illegal", I would be stupid myself.

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Wed Mar 28 22:39:46 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 00:39:46 +0200
Subject: [ExI] The NSA's new data center
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2d-dL4deUu4d62pM2k6QVw1A9tr2U--UO3K84AzAy61HQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <201203241528.q2OFStlk023463@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
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Message-ID: <CAPoR7a6f3nanCVRJ_XJ-DCqQ-vv2KHbmtY8F2zw5g+TSomj_aQ@mail.gmail.com>

2012/3/28 Dave Sill <sparge at gmail.com>

> On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 11:16 AM, Kelly Anderson <kellycoinguy at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> My motto, "Privacy is dead, get over it."
>>
>
> It's not dead yet. And we may well be better off without it, but the
> process of getting there is going to be painful, and not just to those
> whose place a high value on their own privacy.
>

That's for sure. But in most places, most of the times, humans - rulers
included - have not enjoyed any anonimity and privacy to speak of, unless
on a very exceptional basis and with incredible efforts. So, technology is
simply bringing us back to a kind of social relationships where secrets are
very hard to keep, if they exist at all.

Now, once more, the important things is not be under any delusion in this
respect - somebody who confides to Facebook things he does not want his
prospective employer to know is really dumb, given that even in a best case
scenario they can be social-engineered out of his account in two New York
minutes by anybody interested enough -, be aware of being constantly in
public even though we are not actually seeing one another sitting in the
same cave around the same fireplace, and fight the kind of information
asymmetries where governments are allowed to do things that would put you
in jail for good.

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From msd001 at gmail.com  Wed Mar 28 23:34:19 2012
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 19:34:19 -0400
Subject: [ExI] experiment regarding ethical behaviors vs status: was RE:
 Will robot cars be TOO good?
In-Reply-To: <CAPy8RwZrxBa5-sUF_pNN7s2u7GXHxWtHExv0ad88cqxdTT11cQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <003e01cd0abe$542669c0$fc733d40$@att.net>
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Message-ID: <CAOJFdbKNHyq4SzVfu0fTzPbU8vXpNW_1RWPkXETT5wyKFxCfhw@mail.gmail.com>

Are "rich people" and "aggressive driver" really valid
groups/conditions to examine for causality or correlation?

Perhaps there is another personality trait that causes "rich" and
"aggressive" to manifest?  I've seen conversation here that might
suggest "clever" and "sociopath" might give rise to both success and
abuse of traffic regulations.

... just a thought ...


From msd001 at gmail.com  Wed Mar 28 23:18:16 2012
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 19:18:16 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Depressing set of memes
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB5+e4MA7Rc9vYO5H8Yh-DG3GqLwuUt2hYfXLxh_-aB21A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB5+e4MA7Rc9vYO5H8Yh-DG3GqLwuUt2hYfXLxh_-aB21A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOJFdbKazngiAyCBYoTe+4OOTRxcwm84pb-AR+8m6gaOJ-LaDQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 10:46 PM, Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> wrote:
> I don't know if this is the dominate meme set in our culture, but it's
> energy-sapping and depressing. ?It may be the biggest factor in the
> downfall of American culture. ?Any ideas on ?how to counter it?

Reality television showcasing the typical American kowtowing to bosses
of every other national origin reminding us that it can't get any
worse if they continue to do nothing different.  You know, exploit
every stereotype in reverse: racial slavery reversal, ethnic domestic
help reversal, male-chauvinsim gender role reversal, cats and dogs
living together... mass hysteria.  (sorry)

I don't think it's the biggest factor unless (even if) you have so
many factors already on your list that single-digit percentages of
overall contribution are still noticeable as big.

Doing nothing is often seen as the ethical choice in the Trolley
Problem - as if not taking an action absolves one of the
responsibility for the outcome as if he or she had not been present.
hmm...



From msd001 at gmail.com  Wed Mar 28 23:46:05 2012
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 19:46:05 -0400
Subject: [ExI] The NSA's new data center
In-Reply-To: <00f301cd0d10$3f1263a0$bd372ae0$@att.net>
References: <CAPy8RwbtAVMNzqONE--hXciR7AAX3URP_pesFXHBRV5wc8uvWg@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAOJFdbKpkWh9JA=j-Q8nRxtEVyMN0eNZo2Xeh2uW0eFB0vdwxg@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 2:26 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> What would be even better is if some of you code-hipster privacy fans can
> figure out a way to arrange for others to log on as me elsewhere and still
> make it become part of my online profile and my search history. ?That would
> be a kick! ?Become a melded generic extropian avatar, our search histories a
> superset of all those currently reading these words. ?The presence of that
> tech would discourage the data snoops, for their whole exercise of
> data-mining and search profiling would become pointless.
>
> Extra credit if our alternate selves are on another continent.
>
> Eugen, how do we do it? ?Can I just post you my passwords?

If use Tor (for example) you become responsible for the actions of
every other user of that service.  So maybe Spike's friends on Exl
can't hold him accountable to the things he said while someone else
was using his identity, but Spike may also be selected arbitrarily to
be held accountable for things said (and done) by others when he
wasn't even around to suggest DDOS (for example) might not be a good
plan.

I wouldn't risk it.



From spike66 at att.net  Thu Mar 29 00:42:03 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 17:42:03 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The NSA's new data center
In-Reply-To: <CAOJFdbKpkWh9JA=j-Q8nRxtEVyMN0eNZo2Xeh2uW0eFB0vdwxg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPy8RwbtAVMNzqONE--hXciR7AAX3URP_pesFXHBRV5wc8uvWg@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <01aa01cd0d44$c2ff9780$48fec680$@att.net>

>... On Behalf Of Mike Dougherty
Subject: Re: [ExI] The NSA's new data center

On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 2:26 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>> ...What would be even better is if some of you code-hipster privacy fans 
> can figure out a way to arrange for others to log on as me elsewhere 
> and still make it become part of my online profile and my search
history...

>...If use Tor (for example) you become responsible for the actions of every
other user of that service...I wouldn't risk it.

_______________________________________________


I would, but only after selecting a group I know well enough to trust.  They
would do nothing illegal, which actually isn't all that much: we know we
can't threaten people or such as that.  In the US with the first amendment,
there isn't that much you can post which is illegal.  We know there are two
religions which are protected from blasphemy against them.  One shares the
root word  with our term "science" and the other is protected by the fact
that if you post anything against it, they might kill you.  I forget the
name of that one.  Presbyterian perhaps, or Episcopalian, one of those.  Big
in the oil countries I understand.

Other than threats and anything against those two religions, all is fair
game for obscuring my own search history.  Actually I already do this.  We
came up with the idea during Extro5, and had a bunch of friends do it.
After that, Robert Bradbury wrote some of the stuff which has my name on it.

spike



From msd001 at gmail.com  Thu Mar 29 02:03:13 2012
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 22:03:13 -0400
Subject: [ExI] shelf life of drugs
Message-ID: <CAOJFdb+m2scVXTy_Mdz02Egwnrbgwdu=R0SA4O4jDQ0k6kym=g@mail.gmail.com>

I'm not even talking about cutting edge medical wonders, this is OTC stuff.

http://www.terrierman.com/antibiotics-WSJ.htm

"National Expired and Unused Medication Drive has collected and
destroyed 36 tons of drugs since 1991"

destroyed TONS of drugs ?!?  drugs that might have otherwise been effective?

it seems wrong.


From lubkin at unreasonable.com  Thu Mar 29 02:33:46 2012
From: lubkin at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 22:33:46 -0400
Subject: [ExI] shelf life of drugs
In-Reply-To: <CAOJFdb+m2scVXTy_Mdz02Egwnrbgwdu=R0SA4O4jDQ0k6kym=g@mail.g
 mail.com>
References: <CAOJFdb+m2scVXTy_Mdz02Egwnrbgwdu=R0SA4O4jDQ0k6kym=g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <201203290233.q2T2XrtY013457@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

Mike Dougherty wrote:

>I'm not even talking about cutting edge medical wonders, this is OTC stuff.
>
>http://www.terrierman.com/antibiotics-WSJ.htm
>
>"National Expired and Unused Medication Drive has collected and
>destroyed 36 tons of drugs since 1991"
>
>destroyed TONS of drugs ?!?  drugs that might have otherwise been effective?
>
>it seems wrong.

It is. See, for instance,

<http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2000/04/02/drug-expiration-part-one.aspx>

Even if they have reduced efficacy, they may be good enough. And
they are great for preparedness supplies. Or to ship overseas to
countries where the alternative is no drugs. Or to use in veterinary
medicine.


-- David.




From spike66 at att.net  Thu Mar 29 02:59:22 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 19:59:22 -0700
Subject: [ExI] shelf life of drugs
In-Reply-To: <CAOJFdb+m2scVXTy_Mdz02Egwnrbgwdu=R0SA4O4jDQ0k6kym=g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOJFdb+m2scVXTy_Mdz02Egwnrbgwdu=R0SA4O4jDQ0k6kym=g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <01b701cd0d57$f1842ea0$d48c8be0$@att.net>


>... On Behalf Of Mike Dougherty

>http://www.terrierman.com/antibiotics-WSJ.htm

>destroyed TONS of drugs ?!?  drugs that might have otherwise been
effective?  it seems wrong.  Mike



Mike there are so many things about the medical industry that are so wrong,
this is minor stuff indeed.

I am not saying I have all the answers.  But I sure know of plenty of wrong
ones, and we don't seem to be getting any closer to good solutions.

spike








From spike66 at att.net  Thu Mar 29 03:39:05 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 20:39:05 -0700
Subject: [ExI] shelf life of drugs
In-Reply-To: <201203290233.q2T2XrtY013457@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <CAOJFdb+m2scVXTy_Mdz02Egwnrbgwdu=R0SA4O4jDQ0k6kym=g@mail.gmail.com>
 <201203290233.q2T2XrtY013457@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <01c701cd0d5d$7e7ea100$7b7be300$@att.net>



>>... On Behalf Of David Lubkin
>Mike Dougherty wrote:
...
>>destroyed TONS of drugs ?!?  drugs that might have otherwise been
effective?  >it seems wrong.

>...It is. See, for instance,

>...<http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2000/04/02/drug-expi
ration-part-one.aspx>

>...Even if they have reduced efficacy, they may be good enough...-- David.

_______________________________________________

Before you guys get too wound up in this meme, keep thinking about the
astonishing wastefulness, not just in expired drugs, but in nearly every
single aspect of modern life.  If you really think it over, you will see
everywhere around you so many examples of needless waste, the notion of
throwing out perfectly good expired medications will pale in comparison.  

The first, and likely biggest for most of us is the one I have pounded on to
gross excess in this forum, the ape hauler sitting in your garage right now.
It is absurdly oversized, overweight and overpriced for what it does the
majority of the time.  Before you dismiss it with a shrug, think of how we
could do that task better than we do, a loooot better, way better.  

We have a set of expectations that developed during a time when oil spewed
from the ground under its own pressure.  A that pressure dropped, we somehow
forgot to change our expectations.

Wasting medicine is bad, but keep in mind that we are surrounded constantly
in waste, immersed in systematic routine waste.  Wastefulness is all around
us, invisible to us because it is always there, in plain sight, and has
always been there.  I urge we all stop, look around and think about it,
early and often.

spike



From eugen at leitl.org  Thu Mar 29 08:15:04 2012
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 10:15:04 +0200
Subject: [ExI] The NSA's new data center
In-Reply-To: <00f301cd0d10$3f1263a0$bd372ae0$@att.net>
References: <4F70671A.5060600@aleph.se>
 <CAPoR7a4TKNAe6wyGXJcMjG-+7BxX+6usjxkV-Oiy3DE58mr4qA@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CAPoR7a7Vvn61=wbrRgC9E0Sp+vxKw_GTU1cH9wqha+8G=pZNVg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPy8RwaQXt9WYtEXr5vwGNVb7jLzf45vRetQe3RLT2sR=N02wg@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CADDVf2JU62SytGoT5TE36_-qDjitAuZ_o46HYFvpp+9DVPFY6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120328173702.GM14482@leitl.org> <00f301cd0d10$3f1263a0$bd372ae0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <20120329081504.GS14482@leitl.org>

On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 11:26:08AM -0700, spike wrote:

> We know we cannot stop all data leakage, so perhaps a better strategy for
> privacy fans is intentional obscuration.  I have friends over to my house

It is much better to prevent association with your data in the first
place.

> regularly, and have them do Google searches on whatever they want, just to
> clutter the profile, like camo on a tank or a soldier putting foliage on his

It doesn't hurt to run https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/trackmenot/
but it's not enough by far.

> helmet.  Same for posts, including posts to ExI-chat.  If anyone ever asks
> me if I wrote something, intentional obscuration redirects the power back to
> myself.  I can ask to see the comment, then I have the option of owning it
> or not recalling having written that comment.  In general I think this is a
> more effective strategy than stopping all data leakage.

I don't think this strategy is at all effective for profile builders via
web access and email providers like Google Mail.

Google Mail is very much deprecated for the privacy-minded. These days, it
takes a considerable array of privacy extensions for Firefox (Chrome is likewise
deprecated) to reduce the tracking exposure while the web.
 
> Even if one does not practice intentional obscuration, the other guy does
> not know that, or cannot prove it.

Doesn't hold water. You're not in a court.
 
> What would be even better is if some of you code-hipster privacy fans can
> figure out a way to arrange for others to log on as me elsewhere and still
> make it become part of my online profile and my search history.  That would
> be a kick!  Become a melded generic extropian avatar, our search histories a
> superset of all those currently reading these words.  The presence of that
> tech would discourage the data snoops, for their whole exercise of
> data-mining and search profiling would become pointless.
> 
> Extra credit if our alternate selves are on another continent.
> 
> Eugen, how do we do it?  Can I just post you my passwords?

Go get https://www.torproject.org/projects/torbrowser.html.en
and use it, preferably with end-to-end encryption (so malicious exits
don't sniff your data). A better way to use VirtualBox or other virtualization 
technology and to run Tails https://tails.boum.org/about/index.en.html 


From eugen at leitl.org  Thu Mar 29 08:33:50 2012
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 10:33:50 +0200
Subject: [ExI] The NSA's new data center
In-Reply-To: <CADDVf2LvKE_Vb2-eCG_YnXSW8VZ2YzOaqdhHSjcfXdGHONNrUw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4F70671A.5060600@aleph.se>
 <CAPoR7a4TKNAe6wyGXJcMjG-+7BxX+6usjxkV-Oiy3DE58mr4qA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120327095723.GC17245@leitl.org>
 <CAPoR7a7Vvn61=wbrRgC9E0Sp+vxKw_GTU1cH9wqha+8G=pZNVg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPy8RwaQXt9WYtEXr5vwGNVb7jLzf45vRetQe3RLT2sR=N02wg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2d-dL4deUu4d62pM2k6QVw1A9tr2U--UO3K84AzAy61HQ@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CADDVf2JU62SytGoT5TE36_-qDjitAuZ_o46HYFvpp+9DVPFY6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120328173702.GM14482@leitl.org>
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Message-ID: <20120329083350.GT14482@leitl.org>

On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 02:43:49PM -0400, J.R. Jones wrote:

> Oh, I see some extreme difficulties with it myself.  Instead then, how
> about transparency that increases/decreases alongside power/influence?

Absolutely. The more power you have the more scrutiny you deserve.
 
> I think this ties in with my above statement.  Did these events in history
> books happen despite transparency?  My guess is that many

IBMs punched-card data processing was definitely very useful to keep track of these
Jews and Roma and dissidents to be destroyed in Nazi concentration camps.
There are one million people of interest in the US alone. Given a population
of only 0.3 gigapersons, that's an awful lot. And the trend is up, way up.
So, if you want to help transparency, don't start at the bottom.

Start at the top. Why do you think the Pirate Party is trying to be
completely transparent, yet it strongly pro privacy of the individual
citizen? 

> details/actors/variables were kept hidden/non-existent to those outside.

That's just the point, demanding absolutely transparency is bone-headed
simply because you'll voluntarily give whatever little privacy you still
possess, and the powerful people won't. They can make you, but you can't
make them. And since it's apparently no longer obvious for most people
I'm thinking prognosis is poor.
 
> > And that kills it. Only the dumbest livestock picks their own location and
> > method of slaughter.
> >
> >
> Or control freaks?

Don't know, the only way they'll get me to give up my privacy is over
my cold, dead body. And if you're not ready to fight for it, then at
least don't stand in other people's way when they do.


From eugen at leitl.org  Thu Mar 29 08:57:59 2012
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 10:57:59 +0200
Subject: [ExI] The NSA's new data center
In-Reply-To: <CAPy8RwaQXt9WYtEXr5vwGNVb7jLzf45vRetQe3RLT2sR=N02wg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPoR7a4zAHiE-LZSqX4MZ7ZowN7gc5v4H-ATecs+dxFecosW7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <201203241725.q2OHP6Ve010600@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <CALAdGNQggXL-R64g64mwLKGeZgXw=Rjfo0dUYBP-iHggBUoREA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPy8RwbtAVMNzqONE--hXciR7AAX3URP_pesFXHBRV5wc8uvWg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120325090553.GI9891@leitl.org> <4F70671A.5060600@aleph.se>
 <CAPoR7a4TKNAe6wyGXJcMjG-+7BxX+6usjxkV-Oiy3DE58mr4qA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120327095723.GC17245@leitl.org>
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Message-ID: <20120329085759.GV14482@leitl.org>

On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 09:16:44AM -0600, Kelly Anderson wrote:

> In the LONG term, isn't absolute complete transparency of everyone and
> everything the only real answer? The trend seems to be away from

No. Because it asymmetrically empowers the bad guys. Sharing is
a voluntary act. You need to work to share. In order to retain
your secrets, you do nothing. 

Consider the case for TPM. Why do they fight so hard to keep
their secrets, even against side channel and physical damage
attacks? Because they don't trust you, the user.

As you might well be aware, there's massive pressure from many
locations for total financial transparency. No, not for the big
guys. For the little guys like you, so you can be prevented from
rendering upon Caesar what is his. Y U no pay? Y U no like
65% tax at full financial transparency?

Think secrecy is bad? Abolish anonymous voting, then.
Military intelligence data and Apple campus should be open to 
everybody. Members of Congress should be fine with 24 hour
video surveillance, with full GPS track, and IDs of whatever 
people they interacted with. Everybody should know what
the Lawrence Livermore guys are cooking. I mean, everybody
should have access to the plans and the plutonium storage
facility. Nuclear weapons want to be free, and so want human
pathogens.

> personal privacy, away from government secrecy, towards open sharing.
> Is this trend something that can be stopped? Is it something that

I don't know which universe you live in, but I see the exact opposite.
*This* trend needs to be stopped.

> SHOULD be stopped? When individuals obtain the requisite technology to
> wipe out all intelligent life, is privacy sustainable?

Have you ever tried to account for fissibles in a processing facility?
And transport? They do transport plutonium in unmarked trucks, on public
roads. I think everybody should know the exact transport route. Just to
prevent that plutonium falls in the wrong hands. (The only right hands
are *mine*).
 
> Asking it a different way. If everyone in the world had a button, that
> if pushed would end the world, how long would the world last? Knowing
> that the answer is "seconds, if that long"... and knowing that
> individuals will likely obtain such technology some day in the not too
> distant future... Could privacy survive in such a world? Should
> privacy be allowed to survive in such a world?

Why do you want to live as Vinge's Emergents? You yearn to become
human automation?
 
> My motto, "Privacy is dead, get over it."

If you think that, you're not just one of the useful idiots.
You're actually the enemy. You're the enabler. Worse, you're
a hypocrite. Because you will not give up your SS number, your
banking details and your tax returns (the real ones, not the
ones you filed), your medical record including full DNA 
sequence (your insurance would dearly love that), full multimedia 
coverage of your sex acts and all your transactions, in full video and
audio. 
 
> If DCFS would install and monitor cameras in every room of my house, I
> would let them. Why? Because it would protect me from their wild
> imaginations! I'd rather let them in on all my so called "secrets"

You realize that burglars would pay money to have access to that
data?

> than have them assume that I have secrets that I don't possess in
> actuality. That's because they have absolute power over everything I
> really care about, my family. I might request that I have my own
> little private space for bathing and personal time... but eventually,

Not granted. 

> I think I could get over even that. Look at how quickly people on
> reality TV get used to the cameras and just get on with their lives.
> We'll ALL be reality TV stars in the future is my prediction.

Please kill me now.
 
> In no way would I give up rights, but I don't see privacy as an
> absolute right. Then maybe we'll get over this idea that we're not
> just smart bipedal apes, but rather somehow special.

I think you might have a cordyceps infestation. We need to dump this
fellow, quick, before he sprouts spores!


From eugen at leitl.org  Thu Mar 29 10:08:44 2012
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 12:08:44 +0200
Subject: [ExI] The NSA's new data center
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armjOxGmbHnKdeZtHPVT66k-7xMD_zC1caLq0U6Nmuv1j=Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALAdGNQggXL-R64g64mwLKGeZgXw=Rjfo0dUYBP-iHggBUoREA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPy8RwbtAVMNzqONE--hXciR7AAX3URP_pesFXHBRV5wc8uvWg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120325090553.GI9891@leitl.org> <4F70671A.5060600@aleph.se>
 <CAPoR7a4TKNAe6wyGXJcMjG-+7BxX+6usjxkV-Oiy3DE58mr4qA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120327095723.GC17245@leitl.org>
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Message-ID: <20120329100844.GY14482@leitl.org>

On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 03:51:16PM +0000, BillK wrote:

> So...... people cannot even make up two signons, one for 'public'
> personas for employers, teachers, mother, police, etc. and one for
> 'private' contacts. This means that on Facebook and Goog+ people must
> always behave in a fashion suitable for employers , teachers, etc.
> No more private friendly banter for you!

Social media and privacy don't mix. The real (as opposed
to faux endorphine of pseudo social status) value derived
from them is questionable.

I use LinkedIn for tracking professional and business 
networks. I am fully aware of tradeoffs to privacy when
doing so.


From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 29 11:59:34 2012
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 04:59:34 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] The NSA's new data center
References: <201203241528.q2OFStlk023463@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <20120324154627.GL9891@leitl.org>
 <201203241613.q2OGDuc6013513@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
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 <20120327095723.GC17245@leitl.org>
 <CAPoR7a7Vvn61=wbrRgC9E0Sp+vxKw_GTU1cH9wqha+8G=pZNVg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPy8RwaQXt9WYtEXr5vwGNVb7jLzf45vRetQe3RLT2sR=N02wg@mail.gmail.com> 
Message-ID: <1333022374.63992.YahooMailNeo@web164505.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

>________________________________
>From: Kelly Anderson <kellycoinguy at gmail.com>
>To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> 
>Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 8:16 AM
>Subject: Re: [ExI] The NSA's new data center
>
>2012/3/28 Stefano Vaj <stefano.vaj at gmail.com>:
>> But in the meantime, the regulations in place are pretty useful to limit
>> transparency, blackmail people, indict whistle-blowers, try and control the
>> circulation of information, etc.
>
>In the LONG term, isn't absolute complete transparency of everyone and
>everything the only real answer?
?
No. The real answer in the long term is to spread ourselves across so many star systems that NOBODY can kill all of us with weapons of mass destruction. We need?multiple offsite backups of the species or of individuals, it doesn't matter.?
?
>?The trend seems to be away from
>personal privacy, away from government secrecy, towards open sharing.
>Is this trend something that can be stopped? Is it something that
>SHOULD be stopped? When individuals obtain the requisite technology to
>wipe out all intelligent life, is privacy sustainable?

Select individuals have had the power to destroy civilization with the push of a button for over fifty years now. What is it about THOSE people that make them so much more special or trustworthy than you or me? That at the time, someone paid millions to put them into high office to make sure special favors were done in return??
?
You ask if privacy is sustainable in?such a world where individuals can wipe out all intelligent life? I ask you is individuality or intelligent life itself sustainable in?such a world? And furthermore, why?does a?society of beings so powerful that the lowest amongst them can extinguish them all, insist upon?treating their lowest so shabbily that they would want to extinguish all their fellows? Have?we learned nothing from?over 5000 years of recorded history??What goes around comes around so I assure you the end of oppression will be the end of fear.
?
?
>Asking it a different way. If everyone in the world had a button, that
>if pushed would end the world, how long would the world last? Knowing
>that the answer is "seconds, if that long"... and knowing that
>individuals will likely obtain such technology some day in the not too
>distant future... Could privacy survive in such a world? Should
>privacy be allowed to survive in such a world?

More people have the nuke now then ever. I know how much you loved how special it made America feel for something like 50 years now. I enjoyed it too. But it's time to let it go and come up with the next big thing. America cannot be the goose that lays golden eggs if we obsess over any one egg. The world never will be safe no matter how much freedom or dignity you sacrifice to the government. We just have to learn to cope with risk as we go, rather than using it as an excuse never to leave the cave.
?
>My motto, "Privacy is dead, get over it."

That sounds a little like "Mao won the Cold War" to me.
?
>If DCFS would install and monitor cameras in every room of my house, I
>would let them. Why? Because it would protect me from their wild
>imaginations! I'd rather let them in on all my so called "secrets"
>than have them assume that I have secrets that I don't possess in
>actuality. That's because they have absolute power over everything I
>really care about, my family.
?
Let no parent come between the state and its future voters. They are no longer your children. They are now "children of the sun". I heard that one before only it was in a different language. So why would you tolerate anybody having absolute power over your family? And if you are going to tolerate someone having absolute power over your family, why would you choose a faceless beauracracy? I mean if a person abuses power, you can always guilotine them. When a bureaucracy abuses power, they just lose the paperwork, and you don't even know who to blame.?
?
I might request that I have my own
>little private space for bathing and personal time... but eventually,
>I think I could get over even that. Look at how quickly people on
>reality TV get used to the cameras and just get on with their lives.
>We'll ALL be reality TV stars in the future is my prediction.

Yes, we will all be humiliated on television?before the rest of the world so that society can find its one true winner. Until next season of course.
?
>In no way would I give up rights, but I don't see privacy as an
>absolute right. Then maybe we'll get over this idea that we're not
>just smart bipedal apes, but rather somehow special.

Huh? I quote The Constitution:
?
"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."
?
Are not my?words and my deeds?truly mine? If not, then?why hold me?responsible for them? If so, then why?seize them?and search?them unreasonably without a warrant? Spies are powerful weapons of war. Why does my government make war against me????
?
?
Stuart LaForge

"The state that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards, and its fighting by fools." -Thucydides.




From lubkin at unreasonable.com  Thu Mar 29 12:35:21 2012
From: lubkin at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 08:35:21 -0400
Subject: [ExI] shelf life of drugs
In-Reply-To: <01c701cd0d5d$7e7ea100$7b7be300$@att.net>
References: <CAOJFdb+m2scVXTy_Mdz02Egwnrbgwdu=R0SA4O4jDQ0k6kym=g@mail.gmail.com>
 <201203290233.q2T2XrtY013457@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <01c701cd0d5d$7e7ea100$7b7be300$@att.net>
Message-ID: <201203291235.q2TCZTUX016458@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

Spike wrote:

>Before you guys get too wound up in this meme, keep thinking about the
>astonishing wastefulness, not just in expired drugs, but in nearly every
>single aspect of modern life.  If you really think it over, you will see
>everywhere around you so many examples of needless waste, the notion of
>throwing out perfectly good expired medications will pale in comparison.

Not if your life includes pills that cost you $20 apiece, and you're
told you should throw them out unnecessarily.

And we have a lot of steam. We can be wound up about lots of
things at the same time. We are Tik-Tok; wind us up and watch
us go. (Remember all three keys though.)

>The first, and likely biggest for most of us is the one I have pounded on to
>gross excess in this forum, the ape hauler sitting in your garage right now.
>It is absurdly oversized, overweight and overpriced for what it does the
>majority of the time.  Before you dismiss it with a shrug, think of how we
>could do that task better than we do, a loooot better, way better.

The literally biggest wasting for humanity is the high fraction of solar
output that is squandered. Other big wastes are unused intellect,
death, statism, and tyranny. I'd rather dismiss ape haulers with a
shrug, and think of how we could do every task better then we do.

And my ape hauler sits quietly in my driveway, and doesn't think up
new ways to interfere with my life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness.

(Unlike that evil 1973 Plymouth Fury, which did find new ways every
day on my way to Livermore across the country. Hmn. Stephen
King's "Christine" was also a Fury, and he was writing the novel
the very days I was driving "Amelia" west.)


-- David.



From eugen at leitl.org  Thu Mar 29 13:57:03 2012
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 15:57:03 +0200
Subject: [ExI] [tt]  The NSA's new data center
Message-ID: <20120329135703.GN14482@leitl.org>

----- Forwarded message from "J. Andrew Rogers" <jar.mailbox at gmail.com> -----

From: "J. Andrew Rogers" <jar.mailbox at gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 21:57:09 -0700
To: tt at postbiota.org
Subject: Re: [tt] [ExI] The NSA's new data center

On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 12:56 PM, David Lubkin <lubkin at unreasonable.com> wrote:
>>It turns out that the algorithm families related to deep relationship
>>analysis -- the kind of algorithms you use to invade privacy -- are
>>very much in the former category. They only parallelize well under
>>topological constraints so narrow that even having a giant data center
>>is insufficient; you would need to deploy the data models on the
>>cluster in carefully designed logical topologies in addition to a
>>carefully designed physical topology.
>>
>>In this case, "winning" is biased toward whoever has both the biggest
>>data centers and the best theoretical computer scientists.
>
> Why do you see this as a sustainable advantage?
>
> That is, won't we reach a point where the capabilities of this NSA
> center are within the price range of reasonably sized coalitions of
> private individuals? Yes, by then the government agencies would
> have even more, but would it make a difference as a practical
> matter?


(I am not on Exi-Chat so posting here)

It matters a great deal. The goal of building these models is deep
behavioral modeling and prediction. With sufficiently good models, you
can start steering outcomes of human behavior below the level of
discernible manipulation on a mass scale. First across the line that
feels like wielding that power wins. We are further down this path
than most people imagine (though not so far that the specifics are
foregone conclusions). It is a mathematics and computer science
problem.

This is very similar to "first to AI" games and the people that work
on it are cognizant of this aspect. If you are far enough ahead, you
can effectively manipulate the efforts of people chasing you.


> There's only so much useful data about people and their interrelations.
> It seems to me we move (big and central can analyze in ways
> others can't) => (big and central can analyze it faster) => (being big
> and central ceases to have an advantage).


Most people can't imagine how detailed a model of their behavior can
be constructed *today* from their data exhaust, nor the quantity of
data exhaust currently collected, without even scratching the surface
of what is theoretically possible. The best analogy I can think of is
compressive sampling/sensing. There is vast amounts of useful data
about individual behavior and it is almost unexploited compared to
what we know is possible theoretically with the right algorithms and
systems.

The reason no serious discussion can be had about privacy is that most
people do not grok the capabilities of the technology they face.
Ironically, it is in many ways more powerful and a lot more invisible
than anything Hollywood has portrayed. There is already quite a bit of
well-known art around camouflaging this type of manipulation that is
already deployed every day -- it is why few people notice.

It is a "first across the line" race. The first organization to gain a
material advantage and exploit it can only be caught if they allow
themselves to be caught. Many organizations are looking for that
advantage but the race favors those with very sharp minds and deep
pockets.

-- 
J. Andrew Rogers
_______________________________________________
tt mailing list
tt at postbiota.org
http://postbiota.org/mailman/listinfo/tt

----- End forwarded message -----
-- 
Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE


From eugen at leitl.org  Thu Mar 29 15:04:08 2012
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 17:04:08 +0200
Subject: [ExI] The NSA's new data center
In-Reply-To: <CAOJFdbKpkWh9JA=j-Q8nRxtEVyMN0eNZo2Xeh2uW0eFB0vdwxg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPoR7a4TKNAe6wyGXJcMjG-+7BxX+6usjxkV-Oiy3DE58mr4qA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120327095723.GC17245@leitl.org>
 <CAPoR7a7Vvn61=wbrRgC9E0Sp+vxKw_GTU1cH9wqha+8G=pZNVg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPy8RwaQXt9WYtEXr5vwGNVb7jLzf45vRetQe3RLT2sR=N02wg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2d-dL4deUu4d62pM2k6QVw1A9tr2U--UO3K84AzAy61HQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armjOxGmbHnKdeZtHPVT66k-7xMD_zC1caLq0U6Nmuv1j=Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADDVf2JU62SytGoT5TE36_-qDjitAuZ_o46HYFvpp+9DVPFY6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120328173702.GM14482@leitl.org> <00f301cd0d10$3f1263a0$bd372ae0$@att.net>
 <CAOJFdbKpkWh9JA=j-Q8nRxtEVyMN0eNZo2Xeh2uW0eFB0vdwxg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120329150408.GA14482@leitl.org>

On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 07:46:05PM -0400, Mike Dougherty wrote:

> > Eugen, how do we do it? ?Can I just post you my passwords?
> 
> If use Tor (for example) you become responsible for the actions of
> every other user of that service.  So maybe Spike's friends on Exl
> can't hold him accountable to the things he said while someone else
> was using his identity, but Spike may also be selected arbitrarily to
> be held accountable for things said (and done) by others when he
> wasn't even around to suggest DDOS (for example) might not be a good
> plan.
> 
> I wouldn't risk it.

Tor middleman is fine. I would not run an exit on a residential
broadband unless you want to talk to les flics. I run a partial 
exit (policy below) on broadband which so far has given me zero 
abuse complaints.

reject 0.0.0.0/8:*
reject 169.254.0.0/16:*
reject 127.0.0.0/8:*
reject 192.168.0.0/16:*
reject 10.0.0.0/8:*
reject 172.16.0.0/12:*
reject 78.46.119.2:*
accept *:22
accept *:443
accept *:465
accept *:563
accept *:992-995
reject *:*


From spike66 at att.net  Thu Mar 29 14:50:46 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 07:50:46 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The NSA's new data center
In-Reply-To: <1333022374.63992.YahooMailNeo@web164505.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <201203241528.q2OFStlk023463@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <20120324154627.GL9891@leitl.org>
 <201203241613.q2OGDuc6013513@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <CAPoR7a4zAHiE-LZSqX4MZ7ZowN7gc5v4H-ATecs+dxFecosW7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <201203241725.q2OHP6Ve010600@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <CALAdGNQggXL-R64g64mwLKGeZgXw=Rjfo0dUYBP-iHggBUoREA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPy8RwbtAVMNzqONE--hXciR7AAX3URP_pesFXHBRV5wc8uvWg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120325090553.GI9891@leitl.org> <4F70671A.5060600@aleph.se>
 <CAPoR7a4TKNAe6wyGXJcMjG-+7BxX+6usjxkV-Oiy3DE58mr4qA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120327095723.GC17245@leitl.org>
 <CAPoR7a7Vvn61=wbrRgC9E0Sp+vxKw_GTU1cH9wqha+8G=pZNVg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPy8RwaQXt9WYtEXr5vwGNVb7jLzf45vRetQe3RLT2sR=N02wg@mail.gmail.com>
 <1333022374.63992.YahooMailNeo@web164505.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <004101cd0dbb$53ac7930$fb056b90$@att.net>


>... On Behalf Of The Avantguardian
...
>>In no way would I give up rights, but I don't see privacy as an absolute
right. Then maybe we'll get over this idea that we're not just smart bipedal
apes, but rather somehow special.

>...Huh? I quote The Constitution:
?
>..."The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers,
and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be
violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by
oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched,
and the persons or things to be seized." Stuart LaForge


Stuart, you had me at "The right of the people..."  Thanks man.

Of course the constitution applies only to what the federal government can
do to us.  But they don't care, their concern is only about getting their
share of tax revenue.  They don't much care how we get our money, so long as
they get their cut.  Our constitutional rights don't apply to advertisers,
the ones who want to know everything about what we post and what we buy.
The marketing people are the ones who stand to directly gain by what goes on
in our bedrooms.
?
Last month when I was posting all that stuff about bexarotene, I started
getting ads about how this company and that company can legally sell me
Targretin.  It was not from any of the companies I canvassed looking for
prices.  I am still getting these.  They are typically from Britain, and
claim they can legally sell me medications that are controlled by
prescription in this country.  What they don't do is give me any means of
chemically testing to see if they are genuine.

How did they know I was interested in that?

spike




From spike66 at att.net  Thu Mar 29 15:20:12 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 08:20:12 -0700
Subject: [ExI] wastefulness, was:  RE:  shelf life of drugs
Message-ID: <004801cd0dbf$7052c680$50f85380$@att.net>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of David Lubkin
...
>...And my ape hauler sits quietly in my driveway, and doesn't think up new
ways to interfere with my life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness...
(Unlike that evil 1973 Plymouth Fury, which did find new ways every day on
my way to Livermore across the country. David.


Wooohooo!  The venerable 73 Plymouth Fury.  My folks had one of those, with
the 360.  What a fun car!  Lots of power, relatively light, fast, quick off
the line.  I loved that car, learned to drive in it.  Nothing wrong with it
other than it guzzled gas, but not as bad as their other car, the 71 Buick
boat-tail Riviera with the wildcat 455 CI, oh my. 

I love V8s, own three of them.  I recognize I am a flaming hypocrite to
point out how wasteful they are.  I had my fun, now I am suggesting others
will not have theirs.  I am not preaching environmental righteousness, being
a black-hearted sinner myself.  I sure as hell burned my share of octane
over the years, the drag racing, cross country trips, the whole thing, did
it, been there, had a great time, hope to do more.

My point is for most purposes, we could have second cars, simple, light,
short range cheap devices, where one cylinder the size of each of the 8 in
Mister Lincoln would suffice.  Of course they won't be as fun to drive, not
as comfortable, not as safe, not nearly as fast.

spike




From pharos at gmail.com  Thu Mar 29 15:34:46 2012
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 16:34:46 +0100
Subject: [ExI] The NSA's new data center
In-Reply-To: <20120329150408.GA14482@leitl.org>
References: <CAPoR7a4TKNAe6wyGXJcMjG-+7BxX+6usjxkV-Oiy3DE58mr4qA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120327095723.GC17245@leitl.org>
 <CAPoR7a7Vvn61=wbrRgC9E0Sp+vxKw_GTU1cH9wqha+8G=pZNVg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPy8RwaQXt9WYtEXr5vwGNVb7jLzf45vRetQe3RLT2sR=N02wg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2d-dL4deUu4d62pM2k6QVw1A9tr2U--UO3K84AzAy61HQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armjOxGmbHnKdeZtHPVT66k-7xMD_zC1caLq0U6Nmuv1j=Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADDVf2JU62SytGoT5TE36_-qDjitAuZ_o46HYFvpp+9DVPFY6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120328173702.GM14482@leitl.org>
 <00f301cd0d10$3f1263a0$bd372ae0$@att.net>
 <CAOJFdbKpkWh9JA=j-Q8nRxtEVyMN0eNZo2Xeh2uW0eFB0vdwxg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120329150408.GA14482@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <CAL_armiQxkoWTOmwjvJB7_4TJ19KAtaCpbc+7zuZ=j0KjowRfw@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 4:04 PM, Eugen Leitl  wrote:
> Tor middleman is fine. I would not run an exit on a residential
> broadband unless you want to talk to les flics. I run a partial
> exit (policy below) on broadband which so far has given me zero
> abuse complaints.
>
> reject 0.0.0.0/8:*
> reject 169.254.0.0/16:*
> reject 127.0.0.0/8:*
> reject 192.168.0.0/16:*
> reject 10.0.0.0/8:*
> reject 172.16.0.0/12:*
> reject 78.46.119.2:*
> accept *:22
> accept *:443
> accept *:465
> accept *:563
> accept *:992-995
> reject *:*
>


In the past I have found using TOR noticeably slowed my browsing, so
restricted my use to very important browsing only. i.e. never.  :)

For Windows there are various Anonymiser packages available, some
free, some ad-supported, some pay-for which use a VPN link to hide
your IP address without much slowdown. Obviously the pay-for ones
claim to be faster.

They do work and disguise you from web sites that you visit. BUT it
means you have to trust the provider not to be copying everything you
do on behalf of the FBI. This shouldn't be a problem if you only wish
to hide from visited web sites that might track you via your IP
address.

In addition to all the tons of security stuff I already run, I have
recently installed the free version of Hotspot Shield which so far
seems to do the job fine.
<http://www.anchorfree.com/index.php>
Note: If you try it, make sure you untick the free toolbar, etc. that
it offers to install.


BillK


From lubkin at unreasonable.com  Thu Mar 29 15:44:06 2012
From: lubkin at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 11:44:06 -0400
Subject: [ExI] The NSA's new data center
In-Reply-To: <004101cd0dbb$53ac7930$fb056b90$@att.net>
References: <201203241528.q2OFStlk023463@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <20120324154627.GL9891@leitl.org>
 <201203241613.q2OGDuc6013513@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <CAPoR7a4zAHiE-LZSqX4MZ7ZowN7gc5v4H-ATecs+dxFecosW7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <201203241725.q2OHP6Ve010600@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <CALAdGNQggXL-R64g64mwLKGeZgXw=Rjfo0dUYBP-iHggBUoREA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPy8RwbtAVMNzqONE--hXciR7AAX3URP_pesFXHBRV5wc8uvWg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120325090553.GI9891@leitl.org> <4F70671A.5060600@aleph.se>
 <CAPoR7a4TKNAe6wyGXJcMjG-+7BxX+6usjxkV-Oiy3DE58mr4qA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120327095723.GC17245@leitl.org>
 <CAPoR7a7Vvn61=wbrRgC9E0Sp+vxKw_GTU1cH9wqha+8G=pZNVg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPy8RwaQXt9WYtEXr5vwGNVb7jLzf45vRetQe3RLT2sR=N02wg@mail.gmail.com>
 <1333022374.63992.YahooMailNeo@web164505.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
 <004101cd0dbb$53ac7930$fb056b90$@att.net>
Message-ID: <201203291544.q2TFiDK1008920@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

Spike wrote:

>Last month when I was posting all that stuff about bexarotene, I started
>getting ads about how this company and that company can legally sell me
>Targretin.  It was not from any of the companies I canvassed looking for
>prices.  I am still getting these.  They are typically from Britain, and
>claim they can legally sell me medications that are controlled by
>prescription in this country.  What they don't do is give me any means of
>chemically testing to see if they are genuine.
>
>How did they know I was interested in that?

They probably use a search alert on bexarotene and then check
the matching pages for email addresses. A  google search on
"bexarotene site:extropy.org" yields your email address. Which
can then be used for spam, or combined with anything else you've
used the address for to show you display ads on web sites.


-- David.



From lubkin at unreasonable.com  Thu Mar 29 16:11:51 2012
From: lubkin at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 12:11:51 -0400
Subject: [ExI] wastefulness, was:  RE:  shelf life of drugs
In-Reply-To: <004801cd0dbf$7052c680$50f85380$@att.net>
References: <004801cd0dbf$7052c680$50f85380$@att.net>
Message-ID: <201203291611.q2TGBxn3011410@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

Spike wrote:

>My point is for most purposes, we could have second cars, simple, light,
>short range cheap devices, where one cylinder the size of each of the 8 in
>Mister Lincoln would suffice.  Of course they won't be as fun to drive, not
>as comfortable, not as safe, not nearly as fast.

I drive an SUV with an excellent array of 4x4 settings. I live in
snowy New Hampshire. I drive through a foot of unplowed snow,
visit a friend down two miles of muddy road, spot a garage
sale and buy furniture, drive down a road that is nothing but
potholes, etc.

These things often happen unexpectedly. But I always want
comfort, room, safety, and the ability to cope with steep hills.
And I always want the ability to get back home no matter what
natural or man-made event has happened in my vicinity.

And I'd think the preparedness aspects of primarily driving
a safe, resilient, adaptable vehicle would be attractive to
any extropian. It seems silly to talk about life extension or
cryonics if you neglect here-and-now basics.


-- David.



From spike66 at att.net  Thu Mar 29 16:33:04 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 09:33:04 -0700
Subject: [ExI] wastefulness, was:  RE:  shelf life of drugs
In-Reply-To: <201203291611.q2TGBxn3011410@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <004801cd0dbf$7052c680$50f85380$@att.net>
 <201203291611.q2TGBxn3011410@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <006c01cd0dc9$9dfe51d0$d9faf570$@att.net>


>... On Behalf Of David Lubkin
Subject: Re: [ExI] wastefulness, was: RE: shelf life of drugs

Spike wrote:

>>...My point is for most purposes, we could have second cars, simple, 
>light, short range cheap devices, where one cylinder the size of each 
>of the 8 in Mister Lincoln would suffice.  Of course they won't be as 
>fun to drive, not as comfortable, not as safe, not nearly as fast.

>...I drive an SUV with an excellent array of 4x4 settings. I live in snowy
New Hampshire. I drive through a foot of unplowed snow, visit a friend down
two miles of muddy road, spot a garage sale and buy furniture, drive down a
road that is nothing but potholes, etc. -- David.

_______________________________________________

Ja point well taken, and note that I am not advocating giving up our beloved
V8s.  The lightweights I am suggesting do not do any of the things you
mentioned: they don't go off-road, they don't even handle rough potholed
paved roads, they don't do bad weather, not even just blustery winds.  They
are more analogous to motorcycles, fair weather friends, only slower and
more dangerous.

Try to imagine driving this rig down a potholed road:

http://video.foxnews.com/v/1530331492001/engineers-develop-car-that-gets-300
0-mpg/

Not.

In order to use something like this anywhere, we would need a super smooth
surface and a physical separation from guys going way faster in Mister
Lincoln with the stereo blasting Carpenters songs, as yahoos are known to
do, such as... me.  But there are plenty of fair weather days when it could
be used.

My point is that our legal system charges taxes and license fees per
vehicle, as opposed to a more reasonable approach, charge per driver.
Regardless of how many ape haulers we own, we can only drive one at a time.
So have two.  Or more.  Keep that good old 4x4 for when you need it to visit
your buddy down the dirt road, have a second light single seat car which you
use when conditions allow.  Pay only once for both.

spike



From alfio.puglisi at gmail.com  Thu Mar 29 17:13:38 2012
From: alfio.puglisi at gmail.com (Alfio Puglisi)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 19:13:38 +0200
Subject: [ExI] The silent PV revolution
Message-ID: <CAJUeD7j4eUE-DY0WT-0zb-XrE_6w=X0w4-2d-yTBRsNKbCo+9A@mail.gmail.com>

During the last few days, I have realized that something very interesting
is going to happen on electricity markets this summer: there is a
non-negligible chance that a major country is going to have so much
production from solar photovoltaics that it will have to *export*
a sizable fraction of it.

The facts: Italy has a population of about 60 million, and peak electricity
usage that hovers around 50 GW on working days, and 40 GW on weekends.

This February, mid-day PV production peaked at almost 10 GW. That's about
330% more than last February. Generous feed-in tariffs have fueled this
crazy growth. Given the explosive results, tariffs are being slashed every
few months, but PV installations show no signs of slowing down.

The graph of hour-by-hour prices in the electricity market
is mightily interesting: http://www.mercatoelettrico.org/It/  (top left
graph, red line is instantaneous price): two peaks at 9am and 8pm, while in
the rest of the day the market is flooded with PV-generated energy, which
keeps prices down. A few years ago the shape was totally different - a
high plateau during the entire day.

in 2011, PV generation in August was 5x the one in February. If the trend
holds, Italy risks to have too much electricity for its internal market at
certain times (starting from noon at weekends, and working down from
there), and will have to export. That's quite a change, since Italy has
been a chronic energy importer for entire *decades*. Countless electrons
inside the power lines coming in from France, Switzerland and Slovenia will
have to suddenly move in a direction they have never witnessed before.

Traditional energy giants are lobbying like hell the government to regulate
the market back into something more manageable (for them), but I think it's
too late. Gas-burning plants, designed to spin up during demand spikes,
are already  being priced out.

Is there anyone out there closely following the same developments, or it's
just me having unhealthy interests? :-)

Ciao,
Alfio
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From jrd1415 at gmail.com  Thu Mar 29 18:21:40 2012
From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 11:21:40 -0700
Subject: [ExI] shelf life of drugs
In-Reply-To: <01c701cd0d5d$7e7ea100$7b7be300$@att.net>
References: <CAOJFdb+m2scVXTy_Mdz02Egwnrbgwdu=R0SA4O4jDQ0k6kym=g@mail.gmail.com>
 <201203290233.q2T2XrtY013457@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <01c701cd0d5d$7e7ea100$7b7be300$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAHUTwkMLedNjWDRYrdFEEDwqRQmKXo739tm3qwr1bf6yCiJ1pg@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 8:39 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

" Wastefulness is all around us, invisible to us because it is always
there, in plain sight, and has always been there.  I urge we all stop,
look around and think about it, early and often.

Waste is the province of the wealthy.  Wealth is an indicator of high
social status.  Thus, being wasteful is an indicator of high social
status.  Perception of high social status(even false perception) is
emotionally compelling.  Thus, being wasteful is emotionally
compelling.

Only when wastefulness threatens survival will it be set aside in
favor of thrift.  However, modern levels of productivity in "the first
world", suggest that -- barring some apocalypse -- that will never
happen.

What can happen is that, broadly, people will be ***forced*** by
reduced income to become thrifty.  Thrift will become socially
acceptable, and people will learn that thrift -- a penny saved is
untaxed, and thus worth **two** pennies earned -- equals good money
management, eventually making the thrifty more prosperous, thus
leading to the desired higher social status.

this process is already in the works.  Less is the new more.

Best, Jeff Davis

     "Everything's hard till you know how to do it."
                               Ray Charles


From eugen at leitl.org  Thu Mar 29 18:30:13 2012
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 20:30:13 +0200
Subject: [ExI] The silent PV revolution
In-Reply-To: <CAJUeD7j4eUE-DY0WT-0zb-XrE_6w=X0w4-2d-yTBRsNKbCo+9A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJUeD7j4eUE-DY0WT-0zb-XrE_6w=X0w4-2d-yTBRsNKbCo+9A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120329183013.GW14482@leitl.org>

On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 07:13:38PM +0200, Alfio Puglisi wrote:
> During the last few days, I have realized that something very interesting
> is going to happen on electricity markets this summer: there is a
> non-negligible chance that a major country is going to have so much
> production from solar photovoltaics that it will have to *export*
> a sizable fraction of it.

This happens quite regularly in Germany, where soon 1/3rd of peak
demand will be covered by PV. You might have noticed that the nuclear
France imported german renewable, including solar energy this winter.
Too much electric heating. The same happens during summer, when 
reactors are shut down because they'd otherwise overheat the
rivers.

So, yes, local and net exports can and do happen.
 
> The facts: Italy has a population of about 60 million, and peak electricity
> usage that hovers around 50 GW on working days, and 40 GW on weekends.
> 
> This February, mid-day PV production peaked at almost 10 GW. That's about
> 330% more than last February. Generous feed-in tariffs have fueled this
> crazy growth. Given the explosive results, tariffs are being slashed every
> few months, but PV installations show no signs of slowing down.
> 
> The graph of hour-by-hour prices in the electricity market
> is mightily interesting: http://www.mercatoelettrico.org/It/  (top left

See http://www.renewablesinternational.net/the-afternoon-dip/150/537/33320/
and http://www.transparency.eex.com/en/Statutory%20Publication%20Requirements%20of%20the%20Transmission%20System%20Operators/Power%20generation/Actual%20solar%20power%20generation 

> graph, red line is instantaneous price): two peaks at 9am and 8pm, while in
> the rest of the day the market is flooded with PV-generated energy, which
> keeps prices down. A few years ago the shape was totally different - a
> high plateau during the entire day.
> 
> in 2011, PV generation in August was 5x the one in February. If the trend
> holds, Italy risks to have too much electricity for its internal market at
> certain times (starting from noon at weekends, and working down from
> there), and will have to export. That's quite a change, since Italy has
> been a chronic energy importer for entire *decades*. Countless electrons
> inside the power lines coming in from France, Switzerland and Slovenia will
> have to suddenly move in a direction they have never witnessed before.

Soon, you'll have "problems" like http://www.renewablesinternational.net/yes-we-have-no-base-load/150/523/29353/
 
> Traditional energy giants are lobbying like hell the government to regulate
> the market back into something more manageable (for them), but I think it's
> too late. Gas-burning plants, designed to spin up during demand spikes,
> are already  being priced out.

Grid parity is only a couple years away, especially in Mezzogiorno.
 
> Is there anyone out there closely following the same developments, or it's
> just me having unhealthy interests? :-)

No, it's not just you.

In fact as the prices have now fallen sufficiently I intend to start with
experimental setups (some ~600 Wp insular) of my own this year.


From atymes at gmail.com  Thu Mar 29 18:31:14 2012
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 11:31:14 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The silent PV revolution
In-Reply-To: <CAJUeD7j4eUE-DY0WT-0zb-XrE_6w=X0w4-2d-yTBRsNKbCo+9A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJUeD7j4eUE-DY0WT-0zb-XrE_6w=X0w4-2d-yTBRsNKbCo+9A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNRzbvDqzj_4FgFJEuSkR4naWdXwZvuoD4v_ArdarquZNQ@mail.gmail.com>

Even assuming that increase, and even assuming that an equal
amount of fossil fuel energy production is taken offline to
compensate, wouldn't a majority of Italy's energy production still
come from fossil fuels?

On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 10:13 AM, Alfio Puglisi <alfio.puglisi at gmail.com> wrote:
> During the last few days, I have realized that something very interesting is
> going to happen on electricity markets this summer: there is a
> non-negligible chance that a major country is going to have so much
> production from solar photovoltaics that it will have to *export*
> a?sizable?fraction of it.
>
> The facts: Italy has a population of about 60 million, and peak electricity
> usage that hovers around 50 GW on working days, and 40 GW on weekends.
>
> This February, mid-day PV production peaked at almost 10 GW. That's about
> 330% more than last February. Generous feed-in tariffs have?fueled this
> crazy growth. Given the explosive results, tariffs are being slashed every
> few months, but PV installations show no signs of slowing down.
>
> The graph of hour-by-hour prices in the electricity market
> is?mightily?interesting:?http://www.mercatoelettrico.org/It/? (top left
> graph, red line is?instantaneous?price): two peaks at 9am and 8pm, while in
> the rest of the day the market is flooded with PV-generated energy, which
> keeps prices down. A few years ago the shape was totally different - a
> high?plateau during the entire day.
>
> in 2011, PV generation in August was 5x the one in February. If the trend
> holds, Italy risks to have too much electricity for its internal market at
> certain times (starting from noon at weekends, and working down from there),
> and will have to export. That's quite a change, since Italy has been a
> chronic energy importer for entire *decades*. Countless electrons inside the
> power lines coming in from France, Switzerland and Slovenia will have to
> suddenly move in a direction they have never witnessed before.
>
> Traditional energy giants are lobbying like hell the government to regulate
> the market back into something more?manageable (for them), but I think it's
> too late. Gas-burning plants, designed to spin up during demand spikes,
> are?already??being priced out.
>
> Is there anyone out there closely following the same developments, or it's
> just me having unhealthy interests? :-)
>
> Ciao,
> Alfio
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>



From jrd1415 at gmail.com  Thu Mar 29 18:36:40 2012
From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 11:36:40 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The silent PV revolution
In-Reply-To: <CAJUeD7j4eUE-DY0WT-0zb-XrE_6w=X0w4-2d-yTBRsNKbCo+9A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJUeD7j4eUE-DY0WT-0zb-XrE_6w=X0w4-2d-yTBRsNKbCo+9A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHUTwkPvuEAcvZyv-k6N8Ygci_JzWnS1UQXBMwm+bhoGgW+nsA@mail.gmail.com>

A large inventory of electric vehicles creates a large, distributed
energy storage capability in the form of an inventory of large
electric-vehicle battery packs.

This makes for a sweet synergy between the electric car and the energy
storage needs of commercial-scale PV-generated electricity.

Others have observed this before.  I'm just repeating it.

Best, Jeff Davis

2012/3/29 Alfio Puglisi <alfio.puglisi at gmail.com>:
> During the last few days, I have realized that something very interesting is
> going to happen on electricity markets this summer: there is a
> non-negligible chance that a major country is going to have so much
> production from solar photovoltaics that it will have to *export*
> a?sizable?fraction of it.
>
> The facts: Italy has a population of about 60 million, and peak electricity
> usage that hovers around 50 GW on working days, and 40 GW on weekends.
>
> This February, mid-day PV production peaked at almost 10 GW. That's about
> 330% more than last February. Generous feed-in tariffs have?fueled this
> crazy growth. Given the explosive results, tariffs are being slashed every
> few months, but PV installations show no signs of slowing down.
>
> The graph of hour-by-hour prices in the electricity market
> is?mightily?interesting:?http://www.mercatoelettrico.org/It/? (top left
> graph, red line is?instantaneous?price): two peaks at 9am and 8pm, while in
> the rest of the day the market is flooded with PV-generated energy, which
> keeps prices down. A few years ago the shape was totally different - a
> high?plateau during the entire day.
>
> in 2011, PV generation in August was 5x the one in February. If the trend
> holds, Italy risks to have too much electricity for its internal market at
> certain times (starting from noon at weekends, and working down from there),
> and will have to export. That's quite a change, since Italy has been a
> chronic energy importer for entire *decades*. Countless electrons inside the
> power lines coming in from France, Switzerland and Slovenia will have to
> suddenly move in a direction they have never witnessed before.
>
> Traditional energy giants are lobbying like hell the government to regulate
> the market back into something more?manageable (for them), but I think it's
> too late. Gas-burning plants, designed to spin up during demand spikes,
> are?already??being priced out.
>
> Is there anyone out there closely following the same developments, or it's
> just me having unhealthy interests? :-)
>
> Ciao,
> Alfio
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>



From spike66 at att.net  Thu Mar 29 20:14:39 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 13:14:39 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The silent PV revolution
In-Reply-To: <CAJUeD7j4eUE-DY0WT-0zb-XrE_6w=X0w4-2d-yTBRsNKbCo+9A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJUeD7j4eUE-DY0WT-0zb-XrE_6w=X0w4-2d-yTBRsNKbCo+9A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00c401cd0de8$92b917f0$b82b47d0$@att.net>

 

 

>. On Behalf Of Alfio Puglisi
Subject: [ExI] The silent PV revolution

 

>. electricity markets this summer: there is a non-negligible chance that a
major country is going to have so much production from solar photovoltaics
that it will have to *export* a sizable fraction of it.Traditional energy
giants are lobbying like hell the government to regulate the market. 

 

Ja, then what happens?  The power companies which have had legislative
mandates to buy a certain amount of power from renewable sources gets all it
is required to buy, forcing the price of any additional solar power
downward, which has an immediate impact on the value of solar installations.
Before they were able to know the exact price at which the full output could
be sold, and also to make a very good estimate of how much power it would
make, which yields a highly accurate estimate of the income from an
installation.  Couple that with a highly accurate estimate of the cost to
install, and the cost/risk/benefit equation is well understood and easily
modeled.

 

Now, as soon as solar power saturates that market and the power must be sold
at a lower rate, then everything changes.  You introduce a risk term and a
reduction in revenue.  

 

I have a friend who is putting in a huge solar installation in eastern
Oregon.  This concern (that the local power company will get all its needed
expensive renewable power, then offer him coal-gen prices for any above
that) keeps my friend awake at night.  His PV farm is the first to go in,
but if a neighboring farm decides to follow his lead (farmers are bad to do
that) then both eventually go broke.  His long-term financial survival
hinges on convincing all local land owners that he is not making money on
those PVs.

 

 

>. or it's just me having unhealthy interests? :-)  Ciao, Alfio

 

Healthy interests.  Think long and hard on this.  You are on something
critically important: the first ground based PV installations are highly
profitable, because they have legislated mandates for their product, they
rely on existing electrical infrastructure for load leveling, they can sell
power to the local utility for peak prices and produce it at low cost.  The
PV-farm owners provide baseline product and sell it at peaker prices.  Cool!
But as more ground based PV infrastructure goes in, the value of it goes
down.  The power company needs to supply power at peaker cost, and in some
cases (rainy or snowy days) end up supplying power generated by peaker
technology and selling it at baseline prices.

 

This will hurt those power companies, aaaannnnd.  the big mean power company
is us.

 

Currently we talk so much about PV dollars per peak watt, and ignore the
costs associated with load leveling, since at first, someone else pays for
it besides the PV-farm owner.  As there is more of it installed, the PV
owner pays.  Then she goes bust.

 

Alfio, fire up your spreadsheet, me lad.  Find out all this the same way I
did: calculate your way to wisdom.

 

spike 

 

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From eugen at leitl.org  Thu Mar 29 21:01:22 2012
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 23:01:22 +0200
Subject: [ExI] The silent PV revolution
In-Reply-To: <00c401cd0de8$92b917f0$b82b47d0$@att.net>
References: <CAJUeD7j4eUE-DY0WT-0zb-XrE_6w=X0w4-2d-yTBRsNKbCo+9A@mail.gmail.com>
 <00c401cd0de8$92b917f0$b82b47d0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <20120329210122.GH14482@leitl.org>

On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 01:14:39PM -0700, spike wrote:

> Ja, then what happens?  The power companies which have had legislative
> mandates to buy a certain amount of power from renewable sources gets all it
> is required to buy, forcing the price of any additional solar power

When the grid is overloaded, currently nobody is required to buy.
Same thing with wind power, they have to shut down feed-in at overproduction.
In fact, new legislation explicitly requires adaptation in feed-in.

> downward, which has an immediate impact on the value of solar installations.

No, it doesn't. It's long-term contracts. If you can feed-in you're
guaranteed your price. If they renegade, you can sue.

> Before they were able to know the exact price at which the full output could
> be sold, and also to make a very good estimate of how much power it would
> make, which yields a highly accurate estimate of the income from an
> installation.  Couple that with a highly accurate estimate of the cost to

Bugger-all income. It's about doing the right thing. I'll happily lose
money on doing the right thing. God knows people blow ridiculous amounts
on trinkets.

> install, and the cost/risk/benefit equation is well understood and easily
> modeled.

You're making this sound like we're all goddamned bean counters. We are not.
 
> Now, as soon as solar power saturates that market and the power must be sold
> at a lower rate, then everything changes.  You introduce a risk term and a
> reduction in revenue.  

No, you don't. The contract is long-term. Overcapacity feed-in is not
an issue, at this point. It only concerns new contracts. In terms of
asserting grid stability, it's only fair and proper. 
 
> I have a friend who is putting in a huge solar installation in eastern
> Oregon.  This concern (that the local power company will get all its needed
> expensive renewable power, then offer him coal-gen prices for any above

Something is wrong with your legislative landscape. If it's not predictable,
then it's shit. Fire your political representatives. They're not representing
you but somebody else.

> that) keeps my friend awake at night.  His PV farm is the first to go in,
> but if a neighboring farm decides to follow his lead (farmers are bad to do
> that) then both eventually go broke.  His long-term financial survival
> hinges on convincing all local land owners that he is not making money on
> those PVs.

I can tell you, if the roof goes, it's a 50 kEUR ticket. The PV would barely
figure, at 0.6 USD/Wp. It's the installation and inverters.
 
> >. or it's just me having unhealthy interests? :-)  Ciao, Alfio
>  
> 
> Healthy interests.  Think long and hard on this.  You are on something
> critically important: the first ground based PV installations are highly
> profitable, because they have legislated mandates for their product, they

Not highly profitable. Borderline profitable.

> rely on existing electrical infrastructure for load leveling, they can sell

The grid relies on supplying peak power. This is why nuke and coal, and
even gas peak power is dead. Solar is what's bringing the price down.
The consumers might not profit from it, but only because of monopolies.

I can tell you what the consumers are going to do at grid parity: blow
a raspberry in the general direction of the monopolies. And as for load
levelling, try micro co-gen swarm. Adaptive within 10 seconds.

> power to the local utility for peak prices and produce it at low cost.  The
> PV-farm owners provide baseline product and sell it at peaker prices.  Cool!

Not baseline, it's peak.

> But as more ground based PV infrastructure goes in, the value of it goes
> down.  The power company needs to supply power at peaker cost, and in some
> cases (rainy or snowy days) end up supplying power generated by peaker
> technology and selling it at baseline prices.

What's wrong with dynamic pricing? I've attended a security conference yesterday,
and they all were shitting brix about smart meter security.
 
> This will hurt those power companies, aaaannnnd.  the big mean power company
> is us.

No, it isn't. I'd rather make my own power, and only dip into the grid
rarely, if ever. The grid is power insurance, not operational source.
 
> Currently we talk so much about PV dollars per peak watt, and ignore the
> costs associated with load leveling, since at first, someone else pays for

No, we don't. Because we sell peak, where demand peaks.

> it besides the PV-farm owner.  As there is more of it installed, the PV
> owner pays.  Then she goes bust.

Doesn't compute.
 
> Alfio, fire up your spreadsheet, me lad.  Find out all this the same way I
> did: calculate your way to wisdom.

You can't calculate diddly squat jack, since it's politics.

Don't bother: just save up, and hit the market when there's grid parity.
Let the monopolies eat cake. They'll choke soon enough when cheap electrochemical
storage hits your cellar. Fuck'em. They've milked us for all there's worth
long enough. Fuck'em hard. 


From alfio.puglisi at gmail.com  Thu Mar 29 22:49:26 2012
From: alfio.puglisi at gmail.com (Alfio Puglisi)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 00:49:26 +0200
Subject: [ExI] The silent PV revolution
In-Reply-To: <00c401cd0de8$92b917f0$b82b47d0$@att.net>
References: <CAJUeD7j4eUE-DY0WT-0zb-XrE_6w=X0w4-2d-yTBRsNKbCo+9A@mail.gmail.com>
 <00c401cd0de8$92b917f0$b82b47d0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAJUeD7h_VYT1EJApc8oZZmkUp0mb7iDSWU88VAuy69JOgNjnYA@mail.gmail.com>

2012/3/29 spike <spike66 at att.net>

> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> *>?* *On Behalf Of *Alfio Puglisi
> *Subject:* [ExI] The silent PV revolution****
>
> ** **
>
> >? electricity markets this summer: there is a non-negligible chance that
> a major country is going to have so much production from solar
> photovoltaics that it will have to *export* a sizable fraction of it?Traditional
> energy giants are lobbying like hell the government to regulate the market
> ? ****
>
> **
>
> ** **
>
> Now, as soon as solar power saturates that market and the power must be
> sold at a lower rate, then everything changes.  You introduce a risk term
> and a reduction in revenue.  ****
>
> ** **
>
> I have a friend who is putting in a huge solar installation in eastern
> Oregon.  This concern (that the local power company will get all its needed
> expensive renewable power, then offer him coal-gen prices for any above
> that) keeps my friend awake at night.  His PV farm is the first to go in,
> but if a neighboring farm decides to follow his lead (farmers are bad to do
> that) then both eventually go broke.  His long-term financial survival
> hinges on convincing all local land owners that he is not making money on
> those PVs.
>

This is true for large-scale PV installations. Admittedly, the bulk of PV
generation here comes from the 30,000+ installations above 50KW. But in the
near future, the focus is on rooftop panels. Only 300,000 installed, plenty
of room for a lot more. Already at current prices and without feed-in
tariffs, the owner is more or less breaking even over the life of the PV
system: half of the money comes from savings on the electricity bill, and
the other half from the (guaranteed) price for electricity exchange between
production peaks and lows.

In another year or two, the first half will be enough to cover the rooftop
panel cost. At that point, you just dimension the system based on your peak
consumption, and overcapacity be damned, I just care about the energy that
I am *not* buying from the grid, and I can give away the rest.

Yours truly is horribly failing to do all this, though: I only have a share
(1KW worth) in a community PV project installed on the roof of a public
school 100km away. Just for the fun of it: sent the money one day, and
received the pictures of the system some months later. Financial break-even
after 10 years, meanwhile the school has a reduced bill.

Ciao,
Alfio
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From alfio.puglisi at gmail.com  Thu Mar 29 23:01:54 2012
From: alfio.puglisi at gmail.com (Alfio Puglisi)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 01:01:54 +0200
Subject: [ExI] The silent PV revolution
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNRzbvDqzj_4FgFJEuSkR4naWdXwZvuoD4v_ArdarquZNQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJUeD7j4eUE-DY0WT-0zb-XrE_6w=X0w4-2d-yTBRsNKbCo+9A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRzbvDqzj_4FgFJEuSkR4naWdXwZvuoD4v_ArdarquZNQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJUeD7j1_sks0mTjmfQQPH=Mp-GrODswBQuVzzfNrz4raOdvYg@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 8:31 PM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:

> Even assuming that increase, and even assuming that an equal
> amount of fossil fuel energy production is taken offline to
> compensate, wouldn't a majority of Italy's energy production still
> come from fossil fuels?
>

Probably yes, since fossil fuels have now a share of around 75% of total
production, and they will continue to provide the bulk of it during the
night and when the weather isn't that good.
PV overproduction during the day could be usefully stored on hydro pumped
storage, in order to further reduce the fossil fuel load. But there is a
conflict of interest where the owners of such hydro plants also own
gas-peaking plants, which are increasingly sitting idle and can't be
amortized.
Even so, the change is momentous and is happening with blinding speed: just
two years ago, not many were convinced that PV had any significant role to
play at all. In two years from now, roles may be reversed.

Ciao,
Alfio






>
> On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 10:13 AM, Alfio Puglisi <alfio.puglisi at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > During the last few days, I have realized that something very
> interesting is
> > going to happen on electricity markets this summer: there is a
> > non-negligible chance that a major country is going to have so much
> > production from solar photovoltaics that it will have to *export*
> > a sizable fraction of it.
> >
> > The facts: Italy has a population of about 60 million, and peak
> electricity
> > usage that hovers around 50 GW on working days, and 40 GW on weekends.
> >
> > This February, mid-day PV production peaked at almost 10 GW. That's about
> > 330% more than last February. Generous feed-in tariffs have fueled this
> > crazy growth. Given the explosive results, tariffs are being slashed
> every
> > few months, but PV installations show no signs of slowing down.
> >
> > The graph of hour-by-hour prices in the electricity market
> > is mightily interesting: http://www.mercatoelettrico.org/It/  (top left
> > graph, red line is instantaneous price): two peaks at 9am and 8pm, while
> in
> > the rest of the day the market is flooded with PV-generated energy, which
> > keeps prices down. A few years ago the shape was totally different - a
> > high plateau during the entire day.
> >
> > in 2011, PV generation in August was 5x the one in February. If the trend
> > holds, Italy risks to have too much electricity for its internal market
> at
> > certain times (starting from noon at weekends, and working down from
> there),
> > and will have to export. That's quite a change, since Italy has been a
> > chronic energy importer for entire *decades*. Countless electrons inside
> the
> > power lines coming in from France, Switzerland and Slovenia will have to
> > suddenly move in a direction they have never witnessed before.
> >
> > Traditional energy giants are lobbying like hell the government to
> regulate
> > the market back into something more manageable (for them), but I think
> it's
> > too late. Gas-burning plants, designed to spin up during demand spikes,
> > are already  being priced out.
> >
> > Is there anyone out there closely following the same developments, or
> it's
> > just me having unhealthy interests? :-)
> >
> > Ciao,
> > Alfio
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > extropy-chat mailing list
> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From lubkin at unreasonable.com  Thu Mar 29 23:53:04 2012
From: lubkin at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 19:53:04 -0400
Subject: [ExI] This is Jeopardy
Message-ID: <201203292353.q2TNr9be017954@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

Jeopardy had "What is cryonics?" and "What is the Singularity?" as
questions tonight, with references to Ettinger and Kurzweil. And Final
Jeopardy is on space exploration.


-- David.



From spike66 at att.net  Fri Mar 30 00:38:51 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 17:38:51 -0700
Subject: [ExI] bees again
Message-ID: <014001cd0e0d$7ad203c0$70760b40$@att.net>

OK here ya go.  I found two more dead bees today:

 

http://lightyears.blogs.cnn.com/2012/03/29/studies-link-pesticides-to-plungi
ng-bee-populations/?hpt=hp_c3

 

spike

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From eugen at leitl.org  Fri Mar 30 06:54:42 2012
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 08:54:42 +0200
Subject: [ExI] The silent PV revolution
In-Reply-To: <CAJUeD7j1_sks0mTjmfQQPH=Mp-GrODswBQuVzzfNrz4raOdvYg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJUeD7j4eUE-DY0WT-0zb-XrE_6w=X0w4-2d-yTBRsNKbCo+9A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRzbvDqzj_4FgFJEuSkR4naWdXwZvuoD4v_ArdarquZNQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJUeD7j1_sks0mTjmfQQPH=Mp-GrODswBQuVzzfNrz4raOdvYg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120330065442.GM14482@leitl.org>

On Fri, Mar 30, 2012 at 01:01:54AM +0200, Alfio Puglisi wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 8:31 PM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > Even assuming that increase, and even assuming that an equal
> > amount of fossil fuel energy production is taken offline to
> > compensate, wouldn't a majority of Italy's energy production still
> > come from fossil fuels?
> >

You're underestimating impact of relatively small (4% in Germany at the
moment) contributions which however almost always match peak, and supply
some quarter of peak demand. This is what made Germany still export
energy despite almost complete nuclear capacity shutdown and this is
what's killing new coal and gas plants.

Moreover, PV effectively cuts of the price peak at peak demand and
is thus wrecking havoc to utilities' financial planning which is
based on harvesting price premium at peak. 

http://www.renewablesinternational.net/the-afternoon-dip/150/537/33320/
 
> Probably yes, since fossil fuels have now a share of around 75% of total
> production, and they will continue to provide the bulk of it during the

Thin-film PV is the quickest way to ramp up capacity. It's the only
technology capable of scaling from uW to TW without missing a blink.

> night and when the weather isn't that good.

The best way to weather these is swarm power production via 
adaptive micro co-gen. Gas turbines can do it as well, since
harvest is very predictable. You can plan days ahead.

> PV overproduction during the day could be usefully stored on hydro pumped
> storage, in order to further reduce the fossil fuel load. But there is a

Large scale electrochemical storage is coming.

> conflict of interest where the owners of such hydro plants also own
> gas-peaking plants, which are increasingly sitting idle and can't be
> amortized.
> Even so, the change is momentous and is happening with blinding speed: just
> two years ago, not many were convinced that PV had any significant role to
> play at all. In two years from now, roles may be reversed.

Yes, people are stupid. Many still don't believe their own eyes and
even realtime daily graphs.


From eugen at leitl.org  Fri Mar 30 10:33:43 2012
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 12:33:43 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Studies show how pesticides make bees lose their way
Message-ID: <20120330103343.GY14482@leitl.org>


http://uk.reuters.com/article/2012/03/29/us-science-pesticides-bees-idUKBRE82S12P20120329

Studies show how pesticides make bees lose their way

A bee is seen sitting on a Marigold flower in a field of a private plantation
near the village of Pishchalovo, about 220 km (138 miles) east of Minsk in
this July 18, 2011 file photogaph. REUTERS/Vasily Fedosenko/Files

By Kate Kelland

LONDON | Thu Mar 29, 2012 7:42pm BST

(Reuters) - Scientists have discovered ways in which even low doses of widely
used pesticides can harm bumblebees and honeybees, interfering with their
homing abilities and making them lose their way.

In two studies published in the journal Science on Thursday, British and
French researchers looked at bees and neonicotinoid insecticides - a class
introduced in the 1990s now among the most commonly used crop pesticides in
the world.

In recent years, bee populations have been dropping rapidly, partly due to a
phenomenon known as Colony Collapse Disorder. Scientists also fear pesticides
are destroying bee populations, but it is not clear how they are causing
damage.

Dave Goulson of Stirling University in Scotland, who led the British study,
said some bumblebee species have declined hugely.

"In North America, several bumblebee species which used to be common have
more or less disappeared from the entire continent," while in Britain, three
species have become extinct, he said in a statement.

The threat to bee populations also extends to Asia, South America and the
Middle East, experts say.

Bees are important pollinators of flowering plants, including many fruit and
vegetable crops. A 2011 United Nations report estimated that bees and other
pollinators such as butterflies, beetles or birds do work worth 153 billion
euros ($203 billion) a year to the human economy.

In the first of the Science studies, a University of Stirling team exposed
developing colonies of bumblebees to low levels of a neonicotinoid called
imidacloprid, and then placed the colonies in an enclosed field site where
the bees could fly around collecting pollen under natural conditions for six
weeks.

At the beginning and end of the experiment, the researchers weighed each of
the bumblebee nests - which included the bees, wax, honey, bee grubs and
pollen - to see how much the colony had grown.

Compared to control colonies not exposed to imidacloprid, the researchers
found the treated colonies gained less weight, suggesting less food was
coming in.

The treated colonies were on average eight to 12 percent smaller than the
control colonies at the end of the experiment, and also produced about 85
percent fewer queens - a finding that is key because queens produce the next
generation of bees.

In the separate study, a team led by Mickael Henry of the French National
Institute for Agricultural Research (INRA) in Avignon tagged free-ranging
honeybees with tiny radio-frequency identification microchips glued to each
bee's back. This allowed them to track the bees as they came and went from
hives.

The researchers gave some of the bees a low dose of the neonicotinoid
pesticide thiamethoxam which they knew would not kill them and compared them
to a control group of bees that was not exposed to the pesticide.

The treated bees were about two to three times more likely to die while away
from their nests, and the researchers said this was probably because the
pesticide interfered with the bees' homing systems, so they couldn't find
their way home.

Henry said the findings raised important issues about pesticide authorization
procedures.

"So far, they (the procedures) mostly require manufacturers to ensure that
doses encountered on the field do not kill bees, but they basically ignore
the consequences of doses that do not kill them but may cause behavioral
difficulties," he said in a statement.

($1 = 0.7525 euros)

(Reporting by Kate Kelland; Editing by Karolina Tagaris)


From alfio.puglisi at gmail.com  Fri Mar 30 12:01:36 2012
From: alfio.puglisi at gmail.com (Alfio Puglisi)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 14:01:36 +0200
Subject: [ExI] The silent PV revolution
In-Reply-To: <20120330065442.GM14482@leitl.org>
References: <CAJUeD7j4eUE-DY0WT-0zb-XrE_6w=X0w4-2d-yTBRsNKbCo+9A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRzbvDqzj_4FgFJEuSkR4naWdXwZvuoD4v_ArdarquZNQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJUeD7j1_sks0mTjmfQQPH=Mp-GrODswBQuVzzfNrz4raOdvYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120330065442.GM14482@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <CAJUeD7hxwN8N5TZsnu3NXU5wS4ajxkr3qWkTxvkpezf3gmR41Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Mar 30, 2012 at 8:54 AM, Eugen Leitl <eugen at leitl.org> wrote:

> On Fri, Mar 30, 2012 at 01:01:54AM +0200, Alfio Puglisi wrote:
> >
> > PV overproduction during the day could be usefully stored on hydro pumped
> > storage, in order to further reduce the fossil fuel load. But there is a
>
> Large scale electrochemical storage is coming.


What is the form of this storage? I thought that batteries (li-ion or
whatever) couldn't be scaled up enough.

Ciao,
Alfio
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From pharos at gmail.com  Fri Mar 30 12:12:41 2012
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 13:12:41 +0100
Subject: [ExI] The silent PV revolution
In-Reply-To: <CAJUeD7hxwN8N5TZsnu3NXU5wS4ajxkr3qWkTxvkpezf3gmR41Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJUeD7j4eUE-DY0WT-0zb-XrE_6w=X0w4-2d-yTBRsNKbCo+9A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRzbvDqzj_4FgFJEuSkR4naWdXwZvuoD4v_ArdarquZNQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJUeD7j1_sks0mTjmfQQPH=Mp-GrODswBQuVzzfNrz4raOdvYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120330065442.GM14482@leitl.org>
 <CAJUeD7hxwN8N5TZsnu3NXU5wS4ajxkr3qWkTxvkpezf3gmR41Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armgQ3HwO6eyD_+T4iNti=2tz-HmHU8=orW2_2N1M9P22nw@mail.gmail.com>

2012/3/30 Alfio Puglisi wrote:
> What is the form of this storage? I thought that batteries (li-ion or
> whatever) couldn't be scaled up enough.
>
>


Siemens says 'Hydrogen Storage'.
<http://www.technologyreview.com/energy/40001/>

Hydrogen Storage Could Be Key to Germany's Energy Plans
No other means of storing energy may be able to reach the scale
required to run Germany on solar and wind power.

    Thursday, March 29, 2012    By Kevin Bullis

If Germany is to meet its ambitious goals of getting a third of its
electricity from renewable energy by 2020 and 80 percent by 2050, it
must find a way to store huge quantities of electricity in order to
make up for the intermittency of renewable energy.

Siemens says it has just the technology: electrolyzer plants, each the
size of a large warehouse, that split water to make hydrogen gas. The
hydrogen could be used when the wind isn't blowing to generate
electricity in gas-fired power plants, or it could be used to fuel
cars.

Producing hydrogen is an inefficient way to store energy?about
two-thirds of the power is lost in the processes of making the
hydrogen and using the hydrogen to generate electricity. But Siemens
says it's the only storage option that can achieve the scale that's
going to be needed in Germany.
---------------


BillK



From eugen at leitl.org  Fri Mar 30 12:25:16 2012
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 14:25:16 +0200
Subject: [ExI] The silent PV revolution
In-Reply-To: <CAJUeD7hxwN8N5TZsnu3NXU5wS4ajxkr3qWkTxvkpezf3gmR41Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJUeD7j4eUE-DY0WT-0zb-XrE_6w=X0w4-2d-yTBRsNKbCo+9A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRzbvDqzj_4FgFJEuSkR4naWdXwZvuoD4v_ArdarquZNQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJUeD7j1_sks0mTjmfQQPH=Mp-GrODswBQuVzzfNrz4raOdvYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120330065442.GM14482@leitl.org>
 <CAJUeD7hxwN8N5TZsnu3NXU5wS4ajxkr3qWkTxvkpezf3gmR41Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120330122516.GC14482@leitl.org>

On Fri, Mar 30, 2012 at 02:01:36PM +0200, Alfio Puglisi wrote:

> > Large scale electrochemical storage is coming.
> 
> 
> What is the form of this storage? I thought that batteries (li-ion or
> whatever) couldn't be scaled up enough.

For one we have a recent revival of putting peak into hydrogen
(PEM water electrolysis) and methane (Sabatier) which can be fed
into the existing natural gas infrastructure (mixes 5-15% without
changes in infrastructure), with ability to buffer (Germany up to 
3 months). This will become critical as renewable input will
rise faster than the grid can absorb it, particularly during
peak (think sunny and blustery day across much of Europe --
use it, or lose it).

Notice that both hydrogen and methane are not just useful as
energy carriers, but are also critical inputs into industry (e.g. metal
oxide reduction), high-temperature processes, synthetic input
(e.g. methanol from CO2 and hydrogen), air nitrogen fixation
and the like. Many people seem to think that electricity is
the only thing that counts -- nothing could be further from
the truth, though degree of electrification *will* increase,
doubling to tripling the current electricity usage.

Further there are new developments in large scale (>>MWh) batteries
based on lithium iron phosphate, zinc-air, liquid redox flow 
and molten metal/salt batteries based on abundant elements
and materials. Potentially lower power density and weight is 
irrelevant for grid buffer applications.

For home and vehicle (peak cache) uses I do think that newer 
electrochemical supercapacitors which manage NiMH-like energy 
densities yet allow very large number of cycles would become
intesting. Also, the same batteries that are being used in EVs
could handle homes.

I have no idea which particular technology will win, long-term.
As I've said multiple times, we're unnecessarily late in developing
these basic processes. Starting in 1970s would have given us
usable technology in a suitable time frame. Now, we have to rush.


From eugen at leitl.org  Fri Mar 30 12:36:56 2012
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 14:36:56 +0200
Subject: [ExI] The silent PV revolution
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armgQ3HwO6eyD_+T4iNti=2tz-HmHU8=orW2_2N1M9P22nw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJUeD7j4eUE-DY0WT-0zb-XrE_6w=X0w4-2d-yTBRsNKbCo+9A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRzbvDqzj_4FgFJEuSkR4naWdXwZvuoD4v_ArdarquZNQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJUeD7j1_sks0mTjmfQQPH=Mp-GrODswBQuVzzfNrz4raOdvYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120330065442.GM14482@leitl.org>
 <CAJUeD7hxwN8N5TZsnu3NXU5wS4ajxkr3qWkTxvkpezf3gmR41Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armgQ3HwO6eyD_+T4iNti=2tz-HmHU8=orW2_2N1M9P22nw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120330123656.GD14482@leitl.org>

On Fri, Mar 30, 2012 at 01:12:41PM +0100, BillK wrote:

> Siemens says 'Hydrogen Storage'.
> <http://www.technologyreview.com/energy/40001/>

It is one of the possibilities. The article completely ignores
the aspect of *not* using the rather wasteful 
electricity-hydrogen-electricity cycle but the storage 
and distribution aspect, as well as directly using
the hydrogen (I can't be the only one who used to reduce
metal oxides to metal with hydrogen as a kid, can't I?).

E.g. instead of using a fuel cell to make electricity to
run your oven you could use a gas burner or catalytic burner
(hydrogen can react with air without a flame). If you want
to http://www.amazon.com/Beyond-Oil-Gas-Methanol-Economy/dp/3527324224/
including C1 feedstock chemistry then methane and hydrogen 
are gateway drugs to that.

Of course these are pretty alien concepts to most people,
as natural science knowledge suffered even more than the
the rest of the rather abysmal state of public education 
we have now. If the public is clueless, so are of course 
their political representatives. Very frustrating for 
the few engineer types who still get it.


From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Fri Mar 30 15:47:20 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 17:47:20 +0200
Subject: [ExI] The NSA's new data center
In-Reply-To: <201203291544.q2TFiDK1008920@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <201203241528.q2OFStlk023463@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <20120324154627.GL9891@leitl.org>
 <201203241613.q2OGDuc6013513@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <CAPoR7a4zAHiE-LZSqX4MZ7ZowN7gc5v4H-ATecs+dxFecosW7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <201203241725.q2OHP6Ve010600@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <CALAdGNQggXL-R64g64mwLKGeZgXw=Rjfo0dUYBP-iHggBUoREA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPy8RwbtAVMNzqONE--hXciR7AAX3URP_pesFXHBRV5wc8uvWg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120325090553.GI9891@leitl.org> <4F70671A.5060600@aleph.se>
 <CAPoR7a4TKNAe6wyGXJcMjG-+7BxX+6usjxkV-Oiy3DE58mr4qA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120327095723.GC17245@leitl.org>
 <CAPoR7a7Vvn61=wbrRgC9E0Sp+vxKw_GTU1cH9wqha+8G=pZNVg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPy8RwaQXt9WYtEXr5vwGNVb7jLzf45vRetQe3RLT2sR=N02wg@mail.gmail.com>
 <1333022374.63992.YahooMailNeo@web164505.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
 <004101cd0dbb$53ac7930$fb056b90$@att.net>
 <201203291544.q2TFiDK1008920@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a6mrkkt+x9yJDN1Mx0+WKqwJvhTcUG5HjF5oO+hLCzNsQ@mail.gmail.com>

This pertains to "consumer protection" with regards to banking:
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/guest-post-welcome-united-states-orwell-part-4-consumer-protection-just-another-federal-reserve
but I am inclined to consider the innumerable, concurrent privacy
enforcement agencies and powers provided by EU regulations on a similar
basis.

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From spike66 at att.net  Fri Mar 30 17:26:53 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 10:26:53 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The silent PV revolution
In-Reply-To: <20120330123656.GD14482@leitl.org>
References: <CAJUeD7j4eUE-DY0WT-0zb-XrE_6w=X0w4-2d-yTBRsNKbCo+9A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRzbvDqzj_4FgFJEuSkR4naWdXwZvuoD4v_ArdarquZNQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJUeD7j1_sks0mTjmfQQPH=Mp-GrODswBQuVzzfNrz4raOdvYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120330065442.GM14482@leitl.org>
 <CAJUeD7hxwN8N5TZsnu3NXU5wS4ajxkr3qWkTxvkpezf3gmR41Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armgQ3HwO6eyD_+T4iNti=2tz-HmHU8=orW2_2N1M9P22nw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120330123656.GD14482@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <008201cd0e9a$4d12c2c0$e7384840$@att.net>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Eugen Leitl
...

>...Of course these are pretty alien concepts to most people, as natural
science knowledge suffered even more than the the rest of the rather abysmal
state of public education we have now. If the public is clueless, so are of
course their political representatives. Very frustrating for the few
engineer types who still get it.
_______________________________________________

Oy vey, ja.  It is appalling and seems to get worse over time.  I am
astonished at how often I hear people comment that in the future our energy
source will be hydrogen, and since water is 2/3 hydrogen, we have plenty of
it so all is well.  All I can manage is a long frustrated uuuuuhhh like
Lurch the butler from the Addam's Family (ask your grandparents.)  The
fundamental scientific education needed by such a comment is far beyond what
I can supply.

We now have a voting majority of people who firmly believe the technology to
get 100 mpg cars exists and the big evil oil companies bought up and
squelched the patents.  Ever so patiently I explain, yes we can build card
that get 100 mpg, however... it isn't your classic Detroit V8 with special
rare-earth magnets on the fuel line.  Yes we can do it, yes the cars are
light, slow and dangerous, and there are noooo patents or copyrights
preventing any of it from being done.

spike



From sparge at gmail.com  Fri Mar 30 17:50:09 2012
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 13:50:09 -0400
Subject: [ExI] The silent PV revolution
In-Reply-To: <008201cd0e9a$4d12c2c0$e7384840$@att.net>
References: <CAJUeD7j4eUE-DY0WT-0zb-XrE_6w=X0w4-2d-yTBRsNKbCo+9A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRzbvDqzj_4FgFJEuSkR4naWdXwZvuoD4v_ArdarquZNQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJUeD7j1_sks0mTjmfQQPH=Mp-GrODswBQuVzzfNrz4raOdvYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120330065442.GM14482@leitl.org>
 <CAJUeD7hxwN8N5TZsnu3NXU5wS4ajxkr3qWkTxvkpezf3gmR41Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armgQ3HwO6eyD_+T4iNti=2tz-HmHU8=orW2_2N1M9P22nw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120330123656.GD14482@leitl.org> <008201cd0e9a$4d12c2c0$e7384840$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2dMzwgw+AdhW5z7RMpJhYi4ZxFhTO_b5hdjeA0kx_qT-Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Mar 30, 2012 at 1:26 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

>  Ever so patiently I explain, yes we can build card
> that get 100 mpg, however... it isn't your classic Detroit V8 with special
> rare-earth magnets on the fuel line.  Yes we can do it, yes the cars are
> light, slow and dangerous, and there are noooo patents or copyrights
> preventing any of it from being done.
>

As you yourself have pointed out, they're only dangerous when they're
competing with 2-ton Detroits and 10-ton semis. Built out of carbon fiber
they could be as safe as F1 cars. Too bad we can't outlaw semis and use
trains for freight.

But I'm pretty sure there are *plenty* of patents that would get in the way
of a small-time operator trying to build one.  One of the major
manufacturers with patent trading deals with the other major
manufacturers--and huge legal departments and budgets--could do it, though.

-Dave
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From mbb386 at main.nc.us  Fri Mar 30 18:04:28 2012
From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 14:04:28 -0400
Subject: [ExI] The silent PV revolution
In-Reply-To: <008201cd0e9a$4d12c2c0$e7384840$@att.net>
References: <CAJUeD7j4eUE-DY0WT-0zb-XrE_6w=X0w4-2d-yTBRsNKbCo+9A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRzbvDqzj_4FgFJEuSkR4naWdXwZvuoD4v_ArdarquZNQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJUeD7j1_sks0mTjmfQQPH=Mp-GrODswBQuVzzfNrz4raOdvYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120330065442.GM14482@leitl.org>
 <CAJUeD7hxwN8N5TZsnu3NXU5wS4ajxkr3qWkTxvkpezf3gmR41Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armgQ3HwO6eyD_+T4iNti=2tz-HmHU8=orW2_2N1M9P22nw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120330123656.GD14482@leitl.org>
 <008201cd0e9a$4d12c2c0$e7384840$@att.net>
Message-ID: <9d51d5a047d3a2a5107345c284e37181.squirrel@main.nc.us>

spike wrote:

>  Ever so patiently I explain, yes
> we can build card
> that get 100 mpg, however... it isn't your classic
> Detroit
> V8 with special
> rare-earth magnets on the fuel line.  Yes we can do it,
> yes the cars are
> light, slow and dangerous, and there are noooo patents or
> copyrights
> preventing any of it from being done.
>

Indeed. My 1989 Chevy Geo Metro got just below 60 mpg on
the highway when new. Note that it was built of thin foil
and could only seat 4 small adults - just a tiny slow
tin-can of a car with a 3 cylinder engine. It's still my
around-town go-to car. :)

In my life I've had three cars I loved: a Corvair
stationwagon (!), a VW squareback, and this Geo (also sort
of like a mini-sationwagon).

When will they make me a new Geo Metro??? This one is
falling apart - it's old enough to vote.

Regards,
MB



From sparge at gmail.com  Fri Mar 30 18:10:15 2012
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 14:10:15 -0400
Subject: [ExI] The silent PV revolution
In-Reply-To: <9d51d5a047d3a2a5107345c284e37181.squirrel@main.nc.us>
References: <CAJUeD7j4eUE-DY0WT-0zb-XrE_6w=X0w4-2d-yTBRsNKbCo+9A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRzbvDqzj_4FgFJEuSkR4naWdXwZvuoD4v_ArdarquZNQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJUeD7j1_sks0mTjmfQQPH=Mp-GrODswBQuVzzfNrz4raOdvYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120330065442.GM14482@leitl.org>
 <CAJUeD7hxwN8N5TZsnu3NXU5wS4ajxkr3qWkTxvkpezf3gmR41Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armgQ3HwO6eyD_+T4iNti=2tz-HmHU8=orW2_2N1M9P22nw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120330123656.GD14482@leitl.org> <008201cd0e9a$4d12c2c0$e7384840$@att.net>
 <9d51d5a047d3a2a5107345c284e37181.squirrel@main.nc.us>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2feC-FKwPo67PYAF=53=h5F4GJYK8WKpz13yw0p0Jnphw@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Mar 30, 2012 at 2:04 PM, MB <mbb386 at main.nc.us> wrote:
>
>
> Indeed. My 1989 Chevy Geo Metro got just below 60 mpg on
> the highway when new. Note that it was built of thin foil
> and could only seat 4 small adults - just a tiny slow
> tin-can of a car with a 3 cylinder engine. It's still my
> around-town go-to car. :)
>

Metro XFi. I had one of them, too. Put 200k miles on it with exactly $0
repairs. Glad I never had an accident in it, though.


> In my life I've had three cars I loved: a Corvair
> stationwagon (!), a VW squareback, and this Geo (also sort
> of like a mini-sationwagon).
>
> When will they make me a new Geo Metro??? This one is
> falling apart - it's old enough to vote.
>

They're still making them. "They" being Suzuki:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suzuki_Swift

-Dave
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From mbb386 at main.nc.us  Fri Mar 30 18:36:56 2012
From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 14:36:56 -0400
Subject: [ExI] cars, was The silent PV revolution
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2feC-FKwPo67PYAF=53=h5F4GJYK8WKpz13yw0p0Jnphw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJUeD7j4eUE-DY0WT-0zb-XrE_6w=X0w4-2d-yTBRsNKbCo+9A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRzbvDqzj_4FgFJEuSkR4naWdXwZvuoD4v_ArdarquZNQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJUeD7j1_sks0mTjmfQQPH=Mp-GrODswBQuVzzfNrz4raOdvYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120330065442.GM14482@leitl.org>
 <CAJUeD7hxwN8N5TZsnu3NXU5wS4ajxkr3qWkTxvkpezf3gmR41Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armgQ3HwO6eyD_+T4iNti=2tz-HmHU8=orW2_2N1M9P22nw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120330123656.GD14482@leitl.org>
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Message-ID: <579580a3570bf5837dc4e8639e2386d6.squirrel@main.nc.us>

sparge wrote:
>
> They're still making them. "They" being Suzuki:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suzuki_Swift
>

Thanks. I knew Suzuki made the Geo Metro, but looking at
all those cars listed it's like a maze.  Everybody is
using 6 different names for everything and mixing them all
up.  ??  ;)

There's something about the old Swift or Metro that was
more sleek and trim. The new cars all look bloated - maybe
that's the safety features?

I'll bet you enjoyed your little XFi. I love my LSi
(bigger on the inside than it is on the outside), and it's
just pushing 200k miles now. It's best to Not be in any
wreck - been there done that, in a big old 1960s Dodge.

Regards,
MB





From spike66 at att.net  Fri Mar 30 18:27:31 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 11:27:31 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The silent PV revolution
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2dMzwgw+AdhW5z7RMpJhYi4ZxFhTO_b5hdjeA0kx_qT-Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJUeD7j4eUE-DY0WT-0zb-XrE_6w=X0w4-2d-yTBRsNKbCo+9A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRzbvDqzj_4FgFJEuSkR4naWdXwZvuoD4v_ArdarquZNQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJUeD7j1_sks0mTjmfQQPH=Mp-GrODswBQuVzzfNrz4raOdvYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120330065442.GM14482@leitl.org>
 <CAJUeD7hxwN8N5TZsnu3NXU5wS4ajxkr3qWkTxvkpezf3gmR41Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armgQ3HwO6eyD_+T4iNti=2tz-HmHU8=orW2_2N1M9P22nw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120330123656.GD14482@leitl.org> <008201cd0e9a$4d12c2c0$e7384840$@att.net>
 <CAM5aL2dMzwgw+AdhW5z7RMpJhYi4ZxFhTO_b5hdjeA0kx_qT-Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00a301cd0ea2$c576cb00$50646100$@att.net>

 

 

From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Dave Sill
Sent: Friday, March 30, 2012 10:50 AM
To: ExI chat list
Subject: Re: [ExI] The silent PV revolution

 

On Fri, Mar 30, 2012 at 1:26 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

>>. Ever so patiently I explain, yes we can build card
that get 100 mpg, however... it isn't your classic Detroit V8 with special
rare-earth magnets on the fuel line.  Yes we can do it, yes the cars are
light, slow and dangerous, and there are noooo patents or copyrights
preventing any of it from being done.

 

>.As you yourself have pointed out, they're only dangerous when they're
competing with 2-ton Detroits and 10-ton semis. Built out of carbon fiber
they could be as safe as F1 cars. Too bad we can't outlaw semis and use
trains for freight.

 

No need to autlaw trucks.  Divide the existing high-speed roads to
physically separate lightweights from the existing fleet.  Take out speed
bumps everywhere.  Remove Botts dots.  Increase smoothness requirements for
the lightweight lanes.  Stay right on chuck-hole repair.  Stop using road
surface neglect as a government tool to increase taxes.

 

 

>.But I'm pretty sure there are *plenty* of patents that would get in the
way of a small-time operator trying to build one.  One of the major
manufacturers with patent trading deals with the other major
manufacturers--and huge legal departments and budgets--could do it, though.
-Dave

 

Dave me lad, there are PLENTY of technologies for lightweights that have
patents long since expired.  There is nothing all that new in any of these
ideas.  Back in the 70s during the Middle East oil embargo, hobbyists played
these kinds of games, did everything that is being done today.  We had
competitions, the 2000 mpg "cars" way back then.  They don't require carbon
composite tech really.  Good old poly-plastics will do at very low penalty.
They don't require anything we didn't already have 40 yrs ago.  I know of
exactly NOTHING invented in the last 20 yrs that would be necessary for a
great lightweight ape hauler, not one thing.  We had everything we need, way
back in my own misspent youth.

 

spike

 

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From sparge at gmail.com  Fri Mar 30 18:48:46 2012
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 14:48:46 -0400
Subject: [ExI] The silent PV revolution
In-Reply-To: <00a301cd0ea2$c576cb00$50646100$@att.net>
References: <CAJUeD7j4eUE-DY0WT-0zb-XrE_6w=X0w4-2d-yTBRsNKbCo+9A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRzbvDqzj_4FgFJEuSkR4naWdXwZvuoD4v_ArdarquZNQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJUeD7j1_sks0mTjmfQQPH=Mp-GrODswBQuVzzfNrz4raOdvYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120330065442.GM14482@leitl.org>
 <CAJUeD7hxwN8N5TZsnu3NXU5wS4ajxkr3qWkTxvkpezf3gmR41Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armgQ3HwO6eyD_+T4iNti=2tz-HmHU8=orW2_2N1M9P22nw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120330123656.GD14482@leitl.org> <008201cd0e9a$4d12c2c0$e7384840$@att.net>
 <CAM5aL2dMzwgw+AdhW5z7RMpJhYi4ZxFhTO_b5hdjeA0kx_qT-Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <00a301cd0ea2$c576cb00$50646100$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2e_Ri9ofHukUyU3ZCH16B2CieRp_jnPN_o_xPdK0Lc2gw@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Mar 30, 2012 at 2:27 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

>
>
> No need to autlaw trucks.  Divide the existing high-speed roads to
> physically separate lightweights from the existing fleet.
>

That's not going to be cheap... It's not a showstopper, but it'll require
leadership and commitment that aren't in sight. Fer Pete's sake, we can't
even stop producing currency at a loss!

Dave me lad, there are PLENTY of technologies for lightweights that have
> patents long since expired.  There is nothing all that new in any of these
> ideas.  Back in the 70s during the Middle East oil embargo, hobbyists
> played these kinds of games, did everything that is being done today.  We
> had competitions, the 2000 mpg ?cars? way back then.  They don?t require
> carbon composite tech really.  Good old poly-plastics will do at very low
> penalty.  They don?t require anything we didn?t already have 40 yrs ago.  I
> know of exactly NOTHING invented in the last 20 yrs that would be necessary
> for a great lightweight ape hauler, not one thing.  We had everything we
> need, way back in my own misspent youth.
>

Hobbyists can get away with patent infringement. Nobody cares. But once you
start selling a product, IP sharks take notice. And while it might be
*possible* to avoid all existing patents, it's extremely difficult to know
what patents you might be infringing.

-Dave
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From eugen at leitl.org  Fri Mar 30 19:16:48 2012
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 21:16:48 +0200
Subject: [ExI] The silent PV revolution
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2dMzwgw+AdhW5z7RMpJhYi4ZxFhTO_b5hdjeA0kx_qT-Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJUeD7j4eUE-DY0WT-0zb-XrE_6w=X0w4-2d-yTBRsNKbCo+9A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRzbvDqzj_4FgFJEuSkR4naWdXwZvuoD4v_ArdarquZNQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJUeD7j1_sks0mTjmfQQPH=Mp-GrODswBQuVzzfNrz4raOdvYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120330065442.GM14482@leitl.org>
 <CAJUeD7hxwN8N5TZsnu3NXU5wS4ajxkr3qWkTxvkpezf3gmR41Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armgQ3HwO6eyD_+T4iNti=2tz-HmHU8=orW2_2N1M9P22nw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120330123656.GD14482@leitl.org> <008201cd0e9a$4d12c2c0$e7384840$@att.net>
 <CAM5aL2dMzwgw+AdhW5z7RMpJhYi4ZxFhTO_b5hdjeA0kx_qT-Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120330191648.GM14482@leitl.org>

On Fri, Mar 30, 2012 at 01:50:09PM -0400, Dave Sill wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 30, 2012 at 1:26 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> 
> >  Ever so patiently I explain, yes we can build card
> > that get 100 mpg, however... it isn't your classic Detroit V8 with special
> > rare-earth magnets on the fuel line.  Yes we can do it, yes the cars are
> > light, slow and dangerous, and there are noooo patents or copyrights
> > preventing any of it from being done.
> >
> 
> As you yourself have pointed out, they're only dangerous when they're
> competing with 2-ton Detroits and 10-ton semis. Built out of carbon fiber
> they could be as safe as F1 cars. Too bad we can't outlaw semis and use
> trains for freight.

VW 0.9 l/100 km car is 261 mpg.

http://www.goauto.com.au/mellor/mellor.nsf/story2/53F43109B9708F71CA2578240007B0E6

It's feasible and safe; however, it will have trouble
competing against the likes of Honda Jazz for 10 kEUR.
 
> But I'm pretty sure there are *plenty* of patents that would get in the way
> of a small-time operator trying to build one.  One of the major
> manufacturers with patent trading deals with the other major
> manufacturers--and huge legal departments and budgets--could do it, though.

The new E-Smart is targeted to hit 16 kEUR. Still more money than I care
to spend for that kind of performance, but at least it's getting there.


From spike66 at att.net  Fri Mar 30 19:41:48 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 12:41:48 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The silent PV revolution
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2e_Ri9ofHukUyU3ZCH16B2CieRp_jnPN_o_xPdK0Lc2gw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJUeD7j4eUE-DY0WT-0zb-XrE_6w=X0w4-2d-yTBRsNKbCo+9A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRzbvDqzj_4FgFJEuSkR4naWdXwZvuoD4v_ArdarquZNQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJUeD7j1_sks0mTjmfQQPH=Mp-GrODswBQuVzzfNrz4raOdvYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120330065442.GM14482@leitl.org>
 <CAJUeD7hxwN8N5TZsnu3NXU5wS4ajxkr3qWkTxvkpezf3gmR41Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armgQ3HwO6eyD_+T4iNti=2tz-HmHU8=orW2_2N1M9P22nw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120330123656.GD14482@leitl.org> <008201cd0e9a$4d12c2c0$e7384840$@att.net>
 <CAM5aL2dMzwgw+AdhW5z7RMpJhYi4ZxFhTO_b5hdjeA0kx_qT-Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <00a301cd0ea2$c576cb00$50646100$@att.net>
 <CAM5aL2e_Ri9ofHukUyU3ZCH16B2CieRp_jnPN_o_xPdK0Lc2gw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00c601cd0ead$259f4b60$70dde220$@att.net>

 

 

From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Dave Sill
Sent: Friday, March 30, 2012 11:49 AM
To: ExI chat list
Subject: Re: [ExI] The silent PV revolution

 

On Fri, Mar 30, 2012 at 2:27 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

 

>>.No need to outlaw trucks.  Divide the existing high-speed roads to
physically separate lightweights from the existing fleet.

 

>.That's not going to be cheap... It's not a showstopper.

 

Dividing roads will be cheap enough, using existing tech, those highway
barrier things.  Keeping the surface smooth enough for low-structure weight
vehicles will cost, but I have an idea, a radical one.  Make a law requiring
all motor-fuel taxes to be used only for road maintenance.  Those taxes
cannot be used for the general fund.  Currently fuel taxes are used by state
governments the way Lucy used the football to repeatedly trick Charlie
Brown.  They keep using rough roads to raise taxes, then dump the money into
the general fund.  The California taxpayers fall for it time after time, and
we have not yet booted that football.

 

>. but it'll require leadership and commitment that aren't in sight.

 

Not here yet, but perhaps in sight.

 

 

>>.Dave me lad, there are PLENTY of technologies for lightweights that have
patents long since expired.  ..  We had everything we need, way back in my
own misspent youth.

 

>.Hobbyists can get away with patent infringement. Nobody cares. But once
you start selling a product, IP sharks take notice. And while it might be
*possible* to avoid all existing patents, it's extremely difficult to know
what patents you might be infringing.  -Dave

 

Disagree sir.  Everything you need to make a high mileage vehicle has been
with us for a long time, way longer than the typical 20 yr life of a patent.
You don't really even need microprocessors.  The single cylinder 50cc
scooter motor, which has been in continuous production nearly unchanged for
over half a century is the basis for plenty of super high mileage contests.
You can use good old fashioned bicycle sprockets and chains, even go ahead
and use off-road bicycle derailleur systems.  Those are just sturdy enough
to handle the torque of a detuned 50 cc single.  In fact you could even go
with a belt driven torque converter or an electronically controlled
mechanical transmission, both of which we had perfected back in the 70s.
Injection molded plastic has been around my entire life, and plain old flat
track cart racer frames would provide at least a modicum of weather
protection.  None of this has any patents applicable: they used to play flat
track racer when I was a kid.

 

They used to call that sport Mini-sprints, and there are now 1000cc
micro-sprints:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwO_PCjvkDM
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwO_PCjvkDM&feature=related>
&feature=related

 

The frames for this are already mass produced, although even this would be
overkill: these are made for racing and can handle the torque from a racing
tuned 1000 liter 4 cylinder engine.  I am talking about 200cc twin cylinders
motors, detuned for optimal fuel efficiency.  Note that mini-sprints will go
100 mph if you have room to turn them loose.  The mini-sprint frames will
handle typical street roughness as well.

 

Honestly, we can do this now, we can run these rigs on our streets.  All we
really need is to find a way to run them safely, and I think we can figure
out what is needed to do that.  Our existing high-speed streets are already
wide: we can divide off a narrow low speed lane and pave it glass smooth.
Our suburbian surface streets are narrower, but they are already lower speed
routes.  I predict that such a system would carry 20% of the traffic within
five years if we would just do it.  So let's just do it.

 

spike

 

 

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From msd001 at gmail.com  Sat Mar 31 01:36:15 2012
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 21:36:15 -0400
Subject: [ExI] The silent PV revolution
In-Reply-To: <00c601cd0ead$259f4b60$70dde220$@att.net>
References: <CAJUeD7j4eUE-DY0WT-0zb-XrE_6w=X0w4-2d-yTBRsNKbCo+9A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRzbvDqzj_4FgFJEuSkR4naWdXwZvuoD4v_ArdarquZNQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJUeD7j1_sks0mTjmfQQPH=Mp-GrODswBQuVzzfNrz4raOdvYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120330065442.GM14482@leitl.org>
 <CAJUeD7hxwN8N5TZsnu3NXU5wS4ajxkr3qWkTxvkpezf3gmR41Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armgQ3HwO6eyD_+T4iNti=2tz-HmHU8=orW2_2N1M9P22nw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120330123656.GD14482@leitl.org>
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 <CAM5aL2dMzwgw+AdhW5z7RMpJhYi4ZxFhTO_b5hdjeA0kx_qT-Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <00a301cd0ea2$c576cb00$50646100$@att.net>
 <CAM5aL2e_Ri9ofHukUyU3ZCH16B2CieRp_jnPN_o_xPdK0Lc2gw@mail.gmail.com>
 <00c601cd0ead$259f4b60$70dde220$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAOJFdb+8eszvsxSyxQ0QTY3pP+ig13rPxSsQU4RSZfe-K2KEpg@mail.gmail.com>

2012/3/30 spike <spike66 at att.net>:
> Honestly, we can do this now, we can run these rigs on our streets.? All we
> really need is to find a way to run them safely, and I think we can figure
> out what is needed to do that.? Our existing high-speed streets are already
> wide: we can divide off a narrow low speed lane and pave it glass smooth.
> Our suburbian surface streets are narrower, but they are already lower speed
> routes.? I predict that such a system would carry 20% of the traffic within
> five years if we would just do it.? So let?s just do it.

Do you think after the road is glass-smooth there will be any issue
keeping the cars in the lane, especially during wet/winter conditions?
 Since glass-smooth will require considerable build (at least it will
in northeast US) would it make sense to have the opposite of our
current roadway's high-middle lower sides?  If the glass-smooth roads
were effective bob-sled paths, the tendency would be for the car to
drift into the center of its lane.  Of course we'd need to be able to
turn off the road, so the high walls of a bobsled course is an
exaggeration (though a downhill express route would be an exciting
ride, no?)



From kellycoinguy at gmail.com  Sat Mar 31 02:55:50 2012
From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 20:55:50 -0600
Subject: [ExI] 5th Grade Science Fair -- Evolution
In-Reply-To: <20120326102715.GB17245@leitl.org>
References: <CAPy8RwacbOK+NMwErk9xLKWK=LjJMJfePfPd_SKUN728o7-oYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <00e401cd0a4b$29a77e00$7cf67a00$@att.net>
 <4F6EB801.9080006@canonizer.com>
 <011b01cd0a99$7bf43b50$73dcb1f0$@att.net>
 <CAL+RtPfzvwU1KFTznmfGMuXMKZ8iq9CjcLTT9yRGKtrhcMts0A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPy8RwatZ_Rtrg5F-fODYHZE8_DnJcU+EGtB8ODY3ZnaAo2-7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120326102715.GB17245@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <CAPy8RwaUY-yXYfGB08ykteu21r-PSXG4qz2zFr1eC1q0+YB9EA@mail.gmail.com>

To make this experiment mean something over the long term, we would
need to have more mutations... can anyone think of a sure fire way to
create mutations in fruit flies...

-Kelly


From eugen at leitl.org  Sat Mar 31 09:59:35 2012
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2012 11:59:35 +0200
Subject: [ExI] The silent PV revolution
In-Reply-To: <CAOJFdb+8eszvsxSyxQ0QTY3pP+ig13rPxSsQU4RSZfe-K2KEpg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20120330065442.GM14482@leitl.org>
 <CAJUeD7hxwN8N5TZsnu3NXU5wS4ajxkr3qWkTxvkpezf3gmR41Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armgQ3HwO6eyD_+T4iNti=2tz-HmHU8=orW2_2N1M9P22nw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120330123656.GD14482@leitl.org> <008201cd0e9a$4d12c2c0$e7384840$@att.net>
 <CAM5aL2dMzwgw+AdhW5z7RMpJhYi4ZxFhTO_b5hdjeA0kx_qT-Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <00a301cd0ea2$c576cb00$50646100$@att.net>
 <CAM5aL2e_Ri9ofHukUyU3ZCH16B2CieRp_jnPN_o_xPdK0Lc2gw@mail.gmail.com>
 <00c601cd0ead$259f4b60$70dde220$@att.net>
 <CAOJFdb+8eszvsxSyxQ0QTY3pP+ig13rPxSsQU4RSZfe-K2KEpg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120331095935.GA14482@leitl.org>

On Fri, Mar 30, 2012 at 09:36:15PM -0400, Mike Dougherty wrote:

> Do you think after the road is glass-smooth there will be any issue
> keeping the cars in the lane, especially during wet/winter conditions?

I'd rather have a packet-switched matter transport network underground.
Something like http://www.cargocap.com/

>  Since glass-smooth will require considerable build (at least it will
> in northeast US) would it make sense to have the opposite of our
> current roadway's high-middle lower sides?  If the glass-smooth roads
> were effective bob-sled paths, the tendency would be for the car to
> drift into the center of its lane.  Of course we'd need to be able to
> turn off the road, so the high walls of a bobsled course is an
> exaggeration (though a downhill express route would be an exciting
> ride, no?)


From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Sat Mar 31 13:35:43 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2012 15:35:43 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Intervista a Stefano Vaj on Transhumanism and Futurism
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a56viV6NiBaybNXLbeFS-AXuzi7KuqGof7AmE5LxRWpsQ@mail.gmail.com>

Those who have at least some basic command of passive Italian - or like
Google Translator... :-) - might be curious to check this newly-published
interview to your humble on the subject of transhumanism and futurism.

http://www.quaz-art.it/ita-art.php?arte=stefano-vaj-intervista

Besides one's everyday technological news, I am happy to say the interest
for philosophical, civilisational and artistic angles of H+ remains high in
the country.

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From bbenzai at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 31 15:16:56 2012
From: bbenzai at yahoo.com (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2012 08:16:56 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] The silent PV revolution
In-Reply-To: <mailman.228.1333137299.17650.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <1333207016.79112.YahooMailClassic@web114405.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

Alfio Puglisi <alfio.puglisi at gmail.com> asked:

On Fri, Mar 30, 2012 at 8:54 AM, Eugen Leitl <eugen at leitl.org> wrote:

>> Large scale electrochemical storage is coming.


> What is the form of this storage? I thought that batteries (li-ion or
> whatever) couldn't be scaled up enough.



I'd have thought it should be fairly obvious that PV energy would be best turned into hydrocarbons as soon as possible.  We have the technology and infrastructure for using them in so many ways, all we need to do is recycle the CO2 produced by burning them, back into fuel using whatever energy sources we end up using, be that PV, nuclear, or whatever.

Seems stupid to me to abandon a mature, effective (and highly energy-dense - probably still the densest we know of) storage medium, that we're all fully geared up to use, on a global scale.  Plus they're the raw material for probably about 75% of the things you see if you look around you right now, and an even greater %age of the device you're reading this on.

Hydrocarbons aren't going away any time soon (if ever).  Of course, if someone finds away to make metallic monatomic hydrogen stable at STP, I'll happily eat my words.


Ben Zaiboc



From eugen at leitl.org  Sat Mar 31 15:50:56 2012
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2012 17:50:56 +0200
Subject: [ExI] The silent PV revolution
In-Reply-To: <1333207016.79112.YahooMailClassic@web114405.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.228.1333137299.17650.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <1333207016.79112.YahooMailClassic@web114405.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20120331155056.GG14482@leitl.org>

On Sat, Mar 31, 2012 at 08:16:56AM -0700, Ben Zaiboc wrote:

> I'd have thought it should be fairly obvious that PV energy would be 
> best turned into hydrocarbons as soon as possible.  We have the technology 

Not all of it, and not all in higher hydrocarbons. Latter have good
volumetric energy density at normal conditions, but not everything
is for propulsion. I'd prefer hydrogen, methane and methanol, and 
more non-Carnot usage. Once methanol fuel cells work well you'll
see a lot of these in electric vehicles and electroflight.  

> and infrastructure for using them in so many ways, all we need to do is 
> recycle the CO2 produced by burning them, back into fuel using whatever 

It's easier to use just water instead of water and CO2 scrubbing. Hydrogen
would work in most locations but propulsion (outside of cryogenic
liquids in aerospace).

> energy sources we end up using, be that PV, nuclear, or whatever.

Nuclear is not going to happen anymore. It also appears stupid
to waste fissibles potentially useful for deep space uses and
propulsion.
 
> Seems stupid to me to abandon a mature, effective (and highly energy-dense - 
> probably still the densest we know of) storage medium, that we're all fully 
> geared up to use, on a global scale.  Plus they're the raw material for 
> probably about 75% of the things you see if you look around you right now, 
> and an even greater %age of the device you're reading this on.
> 
> Hydrocarbons aren't going away any time soon (if ever).  Of course, if 

I can see how advanced systems just use dynamically tracked beamed power 
and don't need fuel. 

> someone finds away to make metallic monatomic hydrogen stable at STP, 

What is wrong with gases? Methane works well enough. 

> I'll happily eat my words.


From jrd1415 at gmail.com  Sat Mar 31 17:26:18 2012
From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis)
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2012 10:26:18 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The silent PV revolution
In-Reply-To: <00c601cd0ead$259f4b60$70dde220$@att.net>
References: <CAJUeD7j4eUE-DY0WT-0zb-XrE_6w=X0w4-2d-yTBRsNKbCo+9A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRzbvDqzj_4FgFJEuSkR4naWdXwZvuoD4v_ArdarquZNQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJUeD7j1_sks0mTjmfQQPH=Mp-GrODswBQuVzzfNrz4raOdvYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120330065442.GM14482@leitl.org>
 <CAJUeD7hxwN8N5TZsnu3NXU5wS4ajxkr3qWkTxvkpezf3gmR41Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armgQ3HwO6eyD_+T4iNti=2tz-HmHU8=orW2_2N1M9P22nw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20120330123656.GD14482@leitl.org>
 <008201cd0e9a$4d12c2c0$e7384840$@att.net>
 <CAM5aL2dMzwgw+AdhW5z7RMpJhYi4ZxFhTO_b5hdjeA0kx_qT-Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <00a301cd0ea2$c576cb00$50646100$@att.net>
 <CAM5aL2e_Ri9ofHukUyU3ZCH16B2CieRp_jnPN_o_xPdK0Lc2gw@mail.gmail.com>
 <00c601cd0ead$259f4b60$70dde220$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAHUTwkNy7MRabkHEnBz6XiQSRXM4L8y5FnVzqUHWxjCTahi_Xw@mail.gmail.com>

2012/3/30 spike <spike66 at att.net>:

>...these are made for racing and can handle the torque from a racing tuned 1000 liter 4 cylinder engine.

Yee hah!  I want one of those.  With bore and stroke the same, those
pistons are over a foot across.

What's the horse power rating on that puppy?

Best, Jeff Davis

"When I am working on a problem I never think
about beauty. I only think about how to solve
 the problem. But when I have finished, if the
solution is not beautiful, I know it is wrong."
               - Buckminster Fuller


From kellycoinguy at gmail.com  Sat Mar 31 18:26:32 2012
From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2012 12:26:32 -0600
Subject: [ExI] The silent PV revolution
In-Reply-To: <00c401cd0de8$92b917f0$b82b47d0$@att.net>
References: <CAJUeD7j4eUE-DY0WT-0zb-XrE_6w=X0w4-2d-yTBRsNKbCo+9A@mail.gmail.com>
 <00c401cd0de8$92b917f0$b82b47d0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAPy8RwY+CksBTbozJHSb1Rt32esE9StH_3Lfp+rLtjimE3F0Eg@mail.gmail.com>

2012/3/29 spike <spike66 at att.net>:
> I have a friend who is putting in a huge solar installation in eastern
> Oregon.? This concern (that the local power company will get all its needed
> expensive renewable power, then offer him coal-gen prices for any above
> that) keeps my friend awake at night.? His PV farm is the first to go in,
> but if a neighboring farm decides to follow his lead (farmers are bad to do
> that) then both eventually go broke.? His long-term financial survival
> hinges on convincing all local land owners that he is not making money on
> those PVs.

How will he compete with someone who puts in a system four years from
now at half the cost?

It is nearly as bad to subsidize solar as it is to subsidize big oil.
In 50 years, people will be complaining about subsidies for BIG SOLAR.
Sigh. Will the government never learn to just let the markets be?

-Kelly



From eugen at leitl.org  Sat Mar 31 18:39:10 2012
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2012 20:39:10 +0200
Subject: [ExI] The silent PV revolution
In-Reply-To: <CAPy8RwY+CksBTbozJHSb1Rt32esE9StH_3Lfp+rLtjimE3F0Eg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJUeD7j4eUE-DY0WT-0zb-XrE_6w=X0w4-2d-yTBRsNKbCo+9A@mail.gmail.com>
 <00c401cd0de8$92b917f0$b82b47d0$@att.net>
 <CAPy8RwY+CksBTbozJHSb1Rt32esE9StH_3Lfp+rLtjimE3F0Eg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120331183910.GP14482@leitl.org>

On Sat, Mar 31, 2012 at 12:26:32PM -0600, Kelly Anderson wrote:

> It is nearly as bad to subsidize solar as it is to subsidize big oil.
> In 50 years, people will be complaining about subsidies for BIG SOLAR.

In <10 years, *I* will be complaining about solar tax (as in: tax on Wp of
output) and pork-barrel government guaranteed buy quota for big monopoly
solar projects like Desertec.  

Oh, and I'm complaining *right now* about government pork-barrel of off-shore
wind subsidies. Because if you're cutting 37% of small PV FiTs, there's
no damn reason to keep subsidizing big off-shore projects where there's
plenty spare area for on-shore. 

> Sigh. Will the government never learn to just let the markets be?

Because government passes the best laws that corporate money can buy? 
Now, that was too easy, wasn't it.

But that's slightly unfair, Germany *did* actually bootstrap the global
solar market effectively single-handedly. Because, on their own, markets
are really really lousy at that. 


From rtomek at ceti.pl  Sat Mar 31 19:45:07 2012
From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola)
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2012 21:45:07 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] The NSA's new data center
In-Reply-To: <4F6DBFE3.9070109@aleph.se>
References: <201203172251.q2HMphhn024879@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <CAM5aL2dXQdi8Kdm+TkHPi6Rqzus0uB9c5xubvJB5rw544rd=0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a40aLY09gmJh8N59y08pWQ70V25ENaEdazTZRGmnumfSw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2fp77OtogSLfJ9s2wxKpuF1LnfS7yhfk8ZXnh2zUGrepA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a5F80+CXiinanZjTiBSKcWf7xNA3Vp_TuT0MLe2DsS=jw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4F6DBFE3.9070109@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1203311911390.29936@tau.ceti.pl>

On Sat, 24 Mar 2012, Anders Sandberg wrote:

> I did a little calculation: at what point can governments spy 24/7 on their
> citizens and store all the data?
> 
> I used the World Bank World Development Indicators and IMF predictors for
> future GDP growth and the United nations median population forecasts, the fit
> 10.^(-.2502*(t-1980)+6.304) for the cost (in dollars)per gigabyte (found on
> various pages about Kryder's law) and the assumption that 24/7 video
> surveillance would require 10 TB per person per year.
> 
> Now, if we assume the total budget is 0.1% of the GDP and the storage is just
> 10% of that (the rest is overhead, power, cooling, facilities etc), then the
> conclusion is that doing this becomes feasible around 2020. Bermuda,
> Luxenbourg and Norway can do it in 2018, by 2019 most of Western Europe plus
> the US and Japan can do it. China gets there in 2022. The last countries to
> reach this level are Eritrea and Liberia in 2028, and finally Zimbabwe in
> 2031. By 2025 the US and China will be able to monitor all of humanity if they
> want to/are allowed.
> 
> So at least data storage is not going to be any problem. It would be very
> interesting to get some estimates of the change in cost of surveillance
> cameras and micro-drones, since presumably they are the ones that are actually
> going to be the major hardware costs. Offset a bit because we are helpfully
> adding surveillance capabilities to all our must-have smartphones and smart
> cars. I suspect the hardware part will delay introduction a bit in countries
> that want it, but that just mean there will be hardware overhang once they get
> their smart dust, locators or gnatbots.

Anders, I admire your analysis and even more, ability to ask questions 
like this (damn, why I didn't... ;-) ). I would like to add few points to 
your answer, of course from my limited "AFAIK" point of view.

First, while cost of mere storage (a.k.a. price per gigabyte) is dropping, 
there is more to having extralarge database than just stacking haddrives 
on each other. I think maintainance cost is going to kill any such project 
very quickly. The biggest publicly aknowledged databases nowadays range 
from petabyte to somewhere around 10PB (hard to tell where exactly this 
"around" is, news are somewhat dated) [1] [2]. Anyway, while we could 
extrapolate, based on facts like "in 1992 Teradata creates first 1TB 
system" and in 1997 they make a 24TB one [3], so this would give

[19]> (exp (/ (log 24) 5))

1.88

So, almost doubling a year, which should give about 26PB in 2008:

[24]> (expt (exp (/ (log 24) 5)) 16)

26102.13

However, from the same source ([3]), they delivered "only" a 1PB system in 
that year.

So, the brutal "doubling every year" extrapolation doesn't work in real 
world and what was close to 2 in the past is close to 1.5 nowadays. 
I guess reasons for this vary from technical issues to maintainance costs. 
There are also issues related to actually processing your data. You can 
throw tapes or disks into the basement, no problem, however pulling 
anything useful from this pile of crap is totally different thing. The 
current technological limit seems to be somewhere between 100PB and 500PB
[4] [5] [6], even though there is an exabyte tape library on sale [7] [8]. 
And this has nothing to do with various estimates about exabytes of 
content per month passing through the net.

Basically, from the point of maintainance, at current tech level it 
requires a building built every year to house this much data, and it 
requires actively checking your data for errors, making backups, and so 
on. Which reduces real capacity by about half, optimistically-wise.

With the best tech available now (but not really deployed into the field 
yet), you could provide total-sur for:

[27]> (/ (* 250 +peta+) (* 10 +tera+))

25600 people.

Assuming it will double every year (I think it will not), this gives ca. 
25 million heads by 2022. If you could throw 100 times as much money into 
this project, about 1/3 humanity. However, every year into the project, 
the number of people needed to maintain data storage will grow. There will 
be costs with migrating from one storage medium/technology to another 
about every 10-15 years. And some other costs I am not aware of, because I 
am not very deep into the subject.

The second problem I see is with data transfer. If current telecom 
infrastructure says anything, the limit today is less than 10Tb/cable in 
intercontinental links  [9] [10]. If we assume "central hub" is to be 
located in USA, then transferring live coverage of all European pop with 
300kbps stream will take

[39]> (floor (* 600 +million+ 300 +kilo+) (* 10 +tera+))

16 ;
8398139555840

So, rounding up, 17 best submarine telecom cables thinkable today, which 
however are not yet deployed - AFAIK the best ones are somewhere around 
5Tbps and they are still in construction. Even worse, pushing all live 
streams from all humanity would require 

[42]> (floor (* 8 +billion+ 300 +kilo+) (* 10 +tera+))

223 ;
5689070059520

About 225 10Tbps cables, all coming down into one data storage. I wouldn't 
bet any money this is possible now. Maybe 10 years from now this will look 
better, but I won't bet either.

In a centralised scenario, it *might* be possible to "serve" about million 
heads per continent. In a decentralised one, maybe 2-10 times as much. Ten 
years from now, multiply by... 1.5^10=60 (optimistic case) or 1.2^10=6 
(more realistic one).

Assuming I didn't blow up anywhere and of course I am using all official 
data from public sources.

When it comes to algorithmic advantage of "unofficial" guys as opposed to 
"public" ones, hard to tell but I wouldn't count on miracles. Perhaps some 
problem whose best published algorithm has O(n^2) complexity has been 
"solved" with unpublished algo of O((log2 n)^2) complexity, but there are 
some limits as of how good the good can be made. With amounts of data we 
talk about, I guess this doesn't help so much. Or, you can reduce analysis 
of one second of material by 1000 times, yet with so many seconds to 
analyse this is not going to be all that helpful.

Soo... I am sure total-sur might be possible in the future. But at the 
same time I think the window of opportunity is probably a bit wider than 
10 years.

I mean, we can talk about "intelligent dust" or "intelligent insects" etc 
etc, but AFAIK they are not fielded, and besides, even dust will have to 
report back its recorded material, so we have to make a hub for data 
storage and analysis, which is going to be hard.

Besides, if you care, I guess using good vacuum cleaner and mosquitieras 
can make life of dust and insects much harder. So many research grants 
only to end in a trasher. Or be watered down the drain inside huge shower 
cabin. Woo hoo, big deal.

Now, few words to supporters of "down with privacy" side (not you, Anders, 
but I am in a bit of hurry now, so I can as well put it here).

I don't think life in the past was anywhere "normal". Dying from TB or 
gangrene is not "normal". Being eaten alive by predators is not "normal". 
I am 20/21st century man, not some caveman. By extension, having no 
privacy is not "normal" either.

Also, I wonder, how many Galileos and Copernics would we have in tot-sur 
society ruled by Inquisition? Since we are at it, Inquisition might have 
started from religious based reasons, but soon some folks discovered it 
may suite their earthly needs very well, too. Hence it was so cool to 
denounce neighbors or rival merchant, and it was so cool to torture naked 
women, which AFAIK wasn't required by any religion at the time. As soon as 
you create a powerfull tool like tot-sur system, expect it to be taken 
over by all kind of psychopatic element, in about 10-20 years time, or 
maybe even 0 years really. Good luck living under their rule for the next 
10 thousand years.

BTW, if you think nowadays is any better, because we have civilised, well, 
dream on. I wonder, for example, how many planes Wright bros would have 
built with mob coming to their workshop every day for a bit of wooing and 
joking.

Regards,
Tomasz Rola

[1] http://www.focus.com/fyi/10-largest-databases-in-the-world/

[2] http://gadgetopia.com/post/1730

[3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teradata

[4] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petabyte

[5] 
http://www.geek.com/articles/chips/blue-waters-petaflop-supercomputer-installation-begins-20120130/

[6] http://www.technologyreview.com/computing/38440/

[7] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exabyte

[8] http://www.oracle.com/us/corporate/press/302409

[9] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TAT-14

[10] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transatlantic_communications_cable

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.      **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home    **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...      **
**                                                                 **
** Tomasz Rola          mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com             **


From eugen at leitl.org  Sat Mar 31 19:57:47 2012
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2012 21:57:47 +0200
Subject: [ExI] The NSA's new data center
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1203311911390.29936@tau.ceti.pl>
References: <201203172251.q2HMphhn024879@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <CAM5aL2dXQdi8Kdm+TkHPi6Rqzus0uB9c5xubvJB5rw544rd=0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a40aLY09gmJh8N59y08pWQ70V25ENaEdazTZRGmnumfSw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2fp77OtogSLfJ9s2wxKpuF1LnfS7yhfk8ZXnh2zUGrepA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a5F80+CXiinanZjTiBSKcWf7xNA3Vp_TuT0MLe2DsS=jw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4F6DBFE3.9070109@aleph.se> <Pine.LNX.4.64.1203311911390.29936@tau.ceti.pl>
Message-ID: <20120331195747.GR14482@leitl.org>

On Sat, Mar 31, 2012 at 09:45:07PM +0200, Tomasz Rola wrote:

> First, while cost of mere storage (a.k.a. price per gigabyte) is dropping, 
> there is more to having extralarge database than just stacking haddrives 
> on each other. I think maintainance cost is going to kill any such project 

In practice, the dominant costs are energy, and then the raw hardware
costs, in case of storage, mostly disks. 

> very quickly. The biggest publicly aknowledged databases nowadays range 
> from petabyte to somewhere around 10PB (hard to tell where exactly this 

Database sizes are irrelevant, you're running a highly specialized system,
not stock Oracle. 

It's perfectly possible to keep ~PByte/rack online, and I would put
the limit at 10^4 racks/facility. So in practice you're looking at 
~10 EByte/facility. It's probably more ~1 EByte/facility.

Many other of your assumptions are equally questionable, I will not however
address them in detail.



From pharos at gmail.com  Sat Mar 31 20:26:18 2012
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2012 21:26:18 +0100
Subject: [ExI] The NSA's new data center
In-Reply-To: <20120331195747.GR14482@leitl.org>
References: <201203172251.q2HMphhn024879@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <CAM5aL2dXQdi8Kdm+TkHPi6Rqzus0uB9c5xubvJB5rw544rd=0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a40aLY09gmJh8N59y08pWQ70V25ENaEdazTZRGmnumfSw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2fp77OtogSLfJ9s2wxKpuF1LnfS7yhfk8ZXnh2zUGrepA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a5F80+CXiinanZjTiBSKcWf7xNA3Vp_TuT0MLe2DsS=jw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4F6DBFE3.9070109@aleph.se>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1203311911390.29936@tau.ceti.pl>
 <20120331195747.GR14482@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <CAL_armhHqKeXp3D-Vmv9GySadCLb=eAOShz9xxH04srsywoOVw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Mar 31, 2012 at 8:57 PM, Eugen Leitl  wrote:
> Database sizes are irrelevant, you're running a highly specialized system,
> not stock Oracle.
>
> It's perfectly possible to keep ~PByte/rack online, and I would put
> the limit at 10^4 racks/facility. So in practice you're looking at
> ~10 EByte/facility. It's probably more ~1 EByte/facility.
>
>


kilobyte (kB) 	10^3 	
megabyte (MB) 	10^6 	
gigabyte (GB) 	10^9 	
terabyte (TB) 	10^12
petabyte (PB) 	10^15
exabyte (EB) 	10^18
zettabyte (ZB) 	10^21
yottabyte (YB) 	10^24

The original article says 'as a 2007 Department of Defense report puts
it, the Pentagon is attempting to expand its worldwide communications
network, known as the Global Information Grid, to handle yottabytes
(1024 bytes) of data.'

Wikipedia says:
In January 2012, Cray began construction of the Blue Waters
Supercomputer, which will have a capacity of 500 petabytes making it
the largest storage array ever, if realized.
------------


So for yottabytes the NSA must either be thinking years in the future,
or planning many separate but linked data centres.


BillK


From eugen at leitl.org  Sat Mar 31 21:20:29 2012
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2012 23:20:29 +0200
Subject: [ExI] The NSA's new data center
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armhHqKeXp3D-Vmv9GySadCLb=eAOShz9xxH04srsywoOVw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <201203172251.q2HMphhn024879@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <CAM5aL2dXQdi8Kdm+TkHPi6Rqzus0uB9c5xubvJB5rw544rd=0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a40aLY09gmJh8N59y08pWQ70V25ENaEdazTZRGmnumfSw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2fp77OtogSLfJ9s2wxKpuF1LnfS7yhfk8ZXnh2zUGrepA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a5F80+CXiinanZjTiBSKcWf7xNA3Vp_TuT0MLe2DsS=jw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4F6DBFE3.9070109@aleph.se> <Pine.LNX.4.64.1203311911390.29936@tau.ceti.pl>
 <20120331195747.GR14482@leitl.org>
 <CAL_armhHqKeXp3D-Vmv9GySadCLb=eAOShz9xxH04srsywoOVw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20120331212029.GV14482@leitl.org>

On Sat, Mar 31, 2012 at 09:26:18PM +0100, BillK wrote:

> So for yottabytes the NSA must either be thinking years in the future,
> or planning many separate but linked data centres.

If we can handle 10 EBytes/data center today, and we should have an order
of magnitude increase in storage (Seagate just announced progress
allowing up to 60 TByte in 3.5") then 0.1 ZByte/facility in
near (~decade) future is a reasonable expectation.

I agree that geographical separation of data centers is
the way to go.

I don't see much point in pushing the envelope of storage
size too much though, since your bottleneck is data mining
and analyst eyeballseconds, which is not scalable.

It is extremely easy to drown into mountains of data. 
So at least you want to segment into the highly relevant
(numeric or biometric ID) and proactive storage (e.g. Tor
exit or bulk surveillance audio/video) which may be attacked
or transcribed with future technology, but is effectively
dead data for time being.


From rtomek at ceti.pl  Sat Mar 31 21:37:29 2012
From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola)
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2012 23:37:29 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] The NSA's new data center
In-Reply-To: <20120331195747.GR14482@leitl.org>
References: <201203172251.q2HMphhn024879@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <CAM5aL2dXQdi8Kdm+TkHPi6Rqzus0uB9c5xubvJB5rw544rd=0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a40aLY09gmJh8N59y08pWQ70V25ENaEdazTZRGmnumfSw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2fp77OtogSLfJ9s2wxKpuF1LnfS7yhfk8ZXnh2zUGrepA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a5F80+CXiinanZjTiBSKcWf7xNA3Vp_TuT0MLe2DsS=jw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4F6DBFE3.9070109@aleph.se> <Pine.LNX.4.64.1203311911390.29936@tau.ceti.pl>
 <20120331195747.GR14482@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1203312313290.29936@tau.ceti.pl>

On Sat, 31 Mar 2012, Eugen Leitl wrote:

> On Sat, Mar 31, 2012 at 09:45:07PM +0200, Tomasz Rola wrote:
> 
> > First, while cost of mere storage (a.k.a. price per gigabyte) is dropping, 
> > there is more to having extralarge database than just stacking haddrives 
> > on each other. I think maintainance cost is going to kill any such project 
> 
> In practice, the dominant costs are energy, and then the raw hardware
> costs, in case of storage, mostly disks. 
> 
> > very quickly. The biggest publicly aknowledged databases nowadays range 
> > from petabyte to somewhere around 10PB (hard to tell where exactly this 
> 
> Database sizes are irrelevant, you're running a highly specialized system,
> not stock Oracle. 
> 
> It's perfectly possible to keep ~PByte/rack online, and I would put
> the limit at 10^4 racks/facility. So in practice you're looking at 
> ~10 EByte/facility. It's probably more ~1 EByte/facility.
> 
> Many other of your assumptions are equally questionable, I will not however
> address them in detail.

Eugen, I like to learn, even on my own mistakes. If you have more to say 
about it, feel free to shoot.

Keep in mind I am not talking about what is going to be possible. It will 
be or it will be not. I believe only in shop inventory and numbers. There 
is exabyte tape library being sold by Oracle and there is about 20Tbps in 
transatlantic cables combined, with plans to extend this by maybe 300% 
*which are plans*:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transatlantic_communications_cable

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exabyte

One exabyte library, which has to be maintained (as you said: energy, 
housing, but also active checking for errors in data made by bit rot). It 
will at best store surv data for 100 thousand heads (based on Anders' 
estimate of 10TB/year/head which is equivalent to 2Mbps a-v stream, if I 
am right). Two such libraries if you want to have any significant error 
protection.

Data transmission from sensors in the field to any kind of storage you 
want, because you do want to store this data somewhere? It is easy to 
connect cities with hi-speed net, it is easy to create metropolitan 
network, but it is not easy to deliver hi speed to every place on the map:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Last_mile

The last mile problem remains a problem, no matter if you want to deliver 
data down to enduser or up from enduser to central hub. There is going to 
be central hub, either global one or many locals. The problem remains.

Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.      **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home    **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...      **
**                                                                 **
** Tomasz Rola          mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com             **