From kgh1kgh2 at gmail.com  Thu Nov  1 10:39:41 2012
From: kgh1kgh2 at gmail.com (Kevin G Haskell)
Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2012 06:39:41 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Who is covering corruption in AI?
Message-ID: <CAEUzo3JTTPvp3Kcv8=7OOWmn6sKwTx=gTRuZiOU6PQ9N4tp4fw@mail.gmail.com>

<This isn't about friendship.  It is about the future of humanity and
beyond.  If someone has
stolen money and integrity from the efforts of our small SIAI community,
then
we need to know the exact specifics of why, why we should forgive, and
then how we can make sure it doesn't  happen again.

If there is something wrong with what is going on with the fundraising of
the  SIAI, then it needs
to be known, repaired like a machine, and then ensured that it never
happens again. If somebody has betrayed our machine goals, then who is it,
and how do we make sure they no longer pose a threat?

Kevin

-- 
 * Tweet me on Twitter! - @*KevinGHaskell
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From spike66 at att.net  Thu Nov  1 15:36:19 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2012 08:36:19 -0700
Subject: [ExI] political fun and games
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNT1UAWvoUVsbz8N7yatRf1jq6YpHDnBO_DJfoytd53JPQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <004a01cdb718$3d227960$b7676c20$@att.net>
 <CALAdGNT1UAWvoUVsbz8N7yatRf1jq6YpHDnBO_DJfoytd53JPQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <002101cdb846$a447e8d0$ecd7ba70$@att.net>


>... On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes


On Tue, Oct 30, 2012 at 8:31 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:


>>... it is starting to look more and more like whoever wins in Ohio wins.

>...The state whose government has been pulling strong and legally
questionable means to swing the vote Republican?

No, that was in the next state over, Pennsylvania:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=neGbKHyGuHU

>...It's not the vote that counts, it's who counts the votes...

Ja.  What astonishes me is that even after that 2000 Florida debacle, we
didn't systematically put in place any system that would trace the act of
voting to any kind of biometric identification system.  When I saw that
going on, weeks before the result was announced, I saw it as a huge victory
for those who would decrease the margin of error for elections.  I was
appalled when nothing was done.  I don't understand why the losing side in
that didn't press for better accountability in elections.

spike



From rtomek at ceti.pl  Thu Nov  1 17:00:23 2012
From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola)
Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2012 18:00:23 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [ExI] Who is covering corruption in AI?
In-Reply-To: <CAEUzo3JTTPvp3Kcv8=7OOWmn6sKwTx=gTRuZiOU6PQ9N4tp4fw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEUzo3JTTPvp3Kcv8=7OOWmn6sKwTx=gTRuZiOU6PQ9N4tp4fw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1211011638470.32185@tau.ceti.pl>

On Thu, 1 Nov 2012, Kevin G Haskell wrote:

> <This isn't about friendship.  It is about the future of humanity and
> beyond.  If someone has
> stolen money and integrity from the efforts of our small SIAI community,
> then
> we need to know the exact specifics of why, why we should forgive, and
> then how we can make sure it doesn't  happen again.
> 
> If there is something wrong with what is going on with the fundraising of
> the  SIAI, then it needs
> to be known, repaired like a machine, and then ensured that it never
> happens again. If somebody has betrayed our machine goals, then who is it,
> and how do we make sure they no longer pose a threat?

Eh? I don't think this is possible. Whenever there is an effort/initiative 
by some group of humans and there is an opportunity which could benefit 
one human short term while screwing rest of the group (and the whole 
effort) long term, you can safely bet someone will screw it if you wait 
long enough. Usually the wait is not very long (but I think in smaller 
groups it is longer).

If you would like to see how far such screwing can go, meet history. There 
were fights over throne while Byzantium Empire was drowning deeper and 
deeper (AFAIK, fights/dissonance continued until the very fall). Soviet 
Union is another great example. Nowadays, tinkering around privacy, if 
successful, will almost certainly benefit few, but longterm will convert 
rest of humans into a herd of bipedal cattle, which in effect will screw 
everybody (including beneficiaries, or rather, their grand grand 
children). I don't mean things like vengeance of God, rather, I mean that 
the only constant in Universe is change. Cattle and dinosaurs are not very 
good in adapting to change.

So, history can teach us (or at least, me) that humans screw themselves. 
Of course, on the surface it looks like they were actually acting in their 
best interest. This probably means they were doing their best according to 
game theory. So, whenever someone acts in such way, it is exactly the best 
thing they could do in this exact situation (assuming they had good 
overview of it).

Funny, isn't it?

Now, if only they could see themselves as part of bigger entity, like a 
world, civilisation etc. This would change the whole game theoretic stuff 
in favour of group and its efforts. But I have mixed feelings about 
proposing such changes. They smell too much of soviets and hive minds. And 
if they are future, it is not going to last long. Ants don't build 
rockets. They don't do anything new at all. Soviets fell apart after 70 
years of continuous success (and killing millions of their best folk, 
which would be very needed now - if they only still had them, or their 
students). Global soviet (globsoviet?) would last much longer (because of 
no competition), but the longer it would be, the more fraked humanity will 
be after its fall (petrified structures versus change means their fall is 
inevitable, can be mitigated for some time with human sacrifices but 
that's all).

Humans are poor knobs and wheels in a mechanism. Building flawless 
mechanisms out of humans is doomed effort. On the other side, current 
hiper-pro-individualistic bent, promoting personal success and 
disregarding communities, doesn't look like the way to go either. If you 
really want to engineer a group, either make it into religious cult or 
make it fault-tolerant. Or both.

In other words, I don't think there is anything you (or anybody) could 
repair. We as species are to be oscilating between egoistic and group 
instincts. Sometimes for something good.

Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.      **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home    **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...      **
**                                                                 **
** Tomasz Rola          mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com             **


From atymes at gmail.com  Thu Nov  1 17:15:06 2012
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2012 10:15:06 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Who is covering corruption in AI?
In-Reply-To: <CAEUzo3JTTPvp3Kcv8=7OOWmn6sKwTx=gTRuZiOU6PQ9N4tp4fw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEUzo3JTTPvp3Kcv8=7OOWmn6sKwTx=gTRuZiOU6PQ9N4tp4fw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNSCyVj2Pc_Y9hO1gT5H+VPTaKdDH3Ewv0udO0Y-z7R1kA@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 3:39 AM, Kevin G Haskell <kgh1kgh2 at gmail.com> wrote:
> <This isn't about friendship.  It is about the future of humanity and
> beyond.  If someone has
> stolen money and integrity from the efforts of our small SIAI community,
> then
> we need to know the exact specifics of why, why we should forgive, and
> then how we can make sure it doesn't  happen again.
>
> If there is something wrong with what is going on with the fundraising of
> the  SIAI, then it needs
> to be known, repaired like a machine, and then ensured that it never
> happens again. If somebody has betrayed our machine goals, then who is it,
> and how do we make sure they no longer pose a threat?

>From what I've heard, the stolen money wasn't going *to* SIAI
efforts.  Either there was a thief who was also an AI researcher
but these were largely unconnected, or money was stolen
*from* SIAI efforts.

So, no such threat detected yet.

(Now, the possibility of an AI thief is another story.  Say,
someone training an AI on what data sets they can gather for
phishing schemes and other things it is possible to do with
zero physical interaction - note that the incident that caused
this chain required actually physically placing a device on an
ATM.  Anyway, take note of what schemes work and what
schemes are eventually found out by the cops, as success
and failure data points just like any neural net.)


From atymes at gmail.com  Thu Nov  1 17:05:19 2012
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2012 10:05:19 -0700
Subject: [ExI] political fun and games
In-Reply-To: <002101cdb846$a447e8d0$ecd7ba70$@att.net>
References: <004a01cdb718$3d227960$b7676c20$@att.net>
 <CALAdGNT1UAWvoUVsbz8N7yatRf1jq6YpHDnBO_DJfoytd53JPQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <002101cdb846$a447e8d0$ecd7ba70$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNQing9LoHVNVgCQ8_wz2KQCdH9Hu_tg-zENAeQqvYVZoA@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 8:36 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>>... On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes
> On Tue, Oct 30, 2012 at 8:31 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>>>... it is starting to look more and more like whoever wins in Ohio wins.
>
>>...The state whose government has been pulling strong and legally
> questionable means to swing the vote Republican?
>
> No, that was in the next state over, Pennsylvania:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=neGbKHyGuHU

Not what I meant.  I meant tactics which go after the registrars
and records of vote - which completely bypass the voters.
Doesn't matter if you're polling 70%, even 90%, if the official
record can be tweaked to report you at 49% to the other one's
50%.

http://www.michaelparenti.org/stolenelections.html

>>...It's not the vote that counts, it's who counts the votes...
>
> Ja.  What astonishes me is that even after that 2000 Florida debacle, we
> didn't systematically put in place any system that would trace the act of
> voting to any kind of biometric identification system.  When I saw that
> going on, weeks before the result was announced, I saw it as a huge victory
> for those who would decrease the margin of error for elections.  I was
> appalled when nothing was done.  I don't understand why the losing side in
> that didn't press for better accountability in elections.

Because they were the losing side, and thus unable to press.
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding who to have for
dinner," and all that.

This may be encouraging certain Republicans' (and, to a lesser
extend, certain Democrats') "no compromise" attitude.  Any
compromise could lead to an acceptance of an investigation that
was not totally under their control, which runs the risk of pointing
out that, in fact, they did steal the election.

With proof this blatant about the Presidential race, I would not be
surprised if a detailed investigation revealed similar tactics on a
smaller scale for many Congressional races - up to and including
the tactics employed to try to exclude non-Democrat/Republican
candidates from the ballot altogether.


From charlie.stross at gmail.com  Thu Nov  1 18:20:14 2012
From: charlie.stross at gmail.com (Charlie Stross)
Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2012 18:20:14 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Who is covering corruption in AI?
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNSCyVj2Pc_Y9hO1gT5H+VPTaKdDH3Ewv0udO0Y-z7R1kA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEUzo3JTTPvp3Kcv8=7OOWmn6sKwTx=gTRuZiOU6PQ9N4tp4fw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNSCyVj2Pc_Y9hO1gT5H+VPTaKdDH3Ewv0udO0Y-z7R1kA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0406B258-3367-4ADD-A9FA-7D6EFDD1E069@gmail.com>


On 1 Nov 2012, at 17:15, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 3:39 AM, Kevin G Haskell <kgh1kgh2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> <This isn't about friendship.  It is about the future of humanity and
>> beyond.  If someone has
>> stolen money and integrity from the efforts of our small SIAI community,
>> then
>> we need to know the exact specifics of why, why we should forgive, and
>> then how we can make sure it doesn't  happen again.
>> 
>> If there is something wrong with what is going on with the fundraising of
>> the  SIAI, then it needs
>> to be known, repaired like a machine, and then ensured that it never
>> happens again. If somebody has betrayed our machine goals, then who is it,
>> and how do we make sure they no longer pose a threat?
> 
> From what I've heard, the stolen money wasn't going *to* SIAI
> efforts.  Either there was a thief who was also an AI researcher
> but these were largely unconnected, or money was stolen
> *from* SIAI efforts.
> 
> So, no such threat detected yet.
> 
> (Now, the possibility of an AI thief is another story.  Say,
> someone training an AI on what data sets they can gather for
> phishing schemes and other things it is possible to do with
> zero physical interaction - note that the incident that caused
> this chain required actually physically placing a device on an
> ATM.  Anyway, take note of what schemes work and what
> schemes are eventually found out by the cops, as success
> and failure data points just like any neural net.)

* Clears throat *

There is a body of fiction exploring this subject. Notably "The Quantum Thief" (and sequellae -- it's going to be a trilogy) by Hannu Rajaniemi[*], and, ahem, "Rule 34" by yours truly. Also "REAMDE" by Neal Stephenson treads on the fringes of that territory.


-- Charlie

[*] First SF novel I've read where (a) quantum cryptography is a vital plot point, and (b) the author understands WTF he's talking about. (Hannu acquired a PhD in string theory before he got into writing SF.)


From anders at aleph.se  Thu Nov  1 19:41:45 2012
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2012 19:41:45 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Who is covering corruption in AI?
In-Reply-To: <0406B258-3367-4ADD-A9FA-7D6EFDD1E069@gmail.com>
References: <CAEUzo3JTTPvp3Kcv8=7OOWmn6sKwTx=gTRuZiOU6PQ9N4tp4fw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNSCyVj2Pc_Y9hO1gT5H+VPTaKdDH3Ewv0udO0Y-z7R1kA@mail.gmail.com>
 <0406B258-3367-4ADD-A9FA-7D6EFDD1E069@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5092D079.9080402@aleph.se>

On 01/11/2012 18:20, Charlie Stross wrote:
> There is a body of fiction exploring this subject. Notably "The Quantum Thief" (and sequellae -- it's going to be a trilogy) by Hannu Rajaniemi[*], and, ahem, "Rule 34" by yours truly. Also "REAMDE" by Neal Stephenson treads on the fringes of that territory.
>
> [*] First SF novel I've read where (a) quantum cryptography is a vital plot point, and (b) the author understands WTF he's talking about. (Hannu acquired a PhD in string theory before he got into writing SF.)

Second that. Just finished The Fractal Prince, very good (some nicely 
described quantum shenanigans at the start; the quantum boxing approach 
to keeping something in was new to me, despite having written about AI 
boxing myself). I have just started with Rule 34.


As for the AI thief, I think it is an underappreciated societal risk. 
Right now identity theft and stealing from credit cards still require 
some hands-on work, and this limits their effectiveness and speed. 
Suppose someone found a way of automating the process of extracting the 
money? That means that the stealing could be done on computer 
timescales, and scaled up to the total number of stolen credit card 
numbers (presumably a fairly significant fraction of all of them, given 
the statistical distribution of data losses). Also, automation means 
that rare skills can be encoded in easily copyable scripts, something 
that turned hacking from a skilled activity to the domain of 
script-kiddies and scammers. A rational thief would milk a lot of people 
for a small amount, retiring wealthy to some suitably obscure 
jurisdiction with the right kind of banks. An irrational thief would 
milk for a lot more, likely getting caught but also doing a lot more 
damage to the credibility of our credit system - and that would be 
rather bad overall. And if the exploit exists and a script-like form and 
you are a thief, you will want to use it as early as possible before 
either the exploit is closed or another, less rational thief uses it. So 
you get a race to drain as many accounts as you can.

The fact that right now people do not see this scenario as very 
plausible doesn't comfort me. Because false security is just the setting 
in which nasty exploits can get maximum effect. Yes, most of the systems 
involved in identity, credit and banking are security-minded and 
accountable... but that doesn't stop a steady stream of minor crime, and 
looking at computer security we know that sufficiently devious exploits 
get through a lot of apparent armour.

-- 
Anders Sandberg,
Future of Humanity Institute
Oxford Martin School
Faculty of Philosophy
Oxford University



From atymes at gmail.com  Thu Nov  1 20:26:14 2012
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2012 13:26:14 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Who is covering corruption in AI?
In-Reply-To: <5092D079.9080402@aleph.se>
References: <CAEUzo3JTTPvp3Kcv8=7OOWmn6sKwTx=gTRuZiOU6PQ9N4tp4fw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNSCyVj2Pc_Y9hO1gT5H+VPTaKdDH3Ewv0udO0Y-z7R1kA@mail.gmail.com>
 <0406B258-3367-4ADD-A9FA-7D6EFDD1E069@gmail.com>
 <5092D079.9080402@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNS5F0q23WEd9kccP9Wse=kc56+S51ch4trnumqJYbfsTg@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 12:41 PM, Anders Sandberg <anders at aleph.se> wrote:
> Right
> now identity theft and stealing from credit cards still require some
> hands-on work, and this limits their effectiveness and speed. Suppose
> someone found a way of automating the process of extracting the money?

E-commerce.  Granted, a merchant account has to be involved at
some point, and the credit card companies crack down hard
trying to prevent these accounts from being shells to grab money
before fraudulent purchases can be discovered - but the process
is imperfect, especially if the thief closes their account in time and
leaves no traces.  (There are many automated money laundering
schemes about, where the trace only goes to some dope that's
been recruited to withdraw and send untraceable cash.)  The key
is to abandon any one setup before law enforcement catches on
and begins the trace; most human crooks (that are caught) get
lazy or arrogant and try to overexploit one account.

> An irrational
> thief would milk for a lot more, likely getting caught but also doing a lot
> more damage to the credibility of our credit system - and that would be
> rather bad overall.

Or worse, a hacktivist thief whose entire goal was to ruin the
world's trust in its financial systems.  (Comments about bank
CEOs aside: however well they are achieving this end, it is not
actually their objective.)

> And if the exploit exists and a script-like form and you
> are a thief, you will want to use it as early as possible before either the
> exploit is closed or another, less rational thief uses it. So you get a race
> to drain as many accounts as you can.

Which may well be said hacktivist's preferred modus operandi.


From kellycoinguy at gmail.com  Thu Nov  1 21:00:43 2012
From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kellycoinguy)
Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2012 15:00:43 -0600
Subject: [ExI] political fun and games
Message-ID: <lo32nkulv36j6pyyu39r4vi5.1351803643153@email.android.com>

The conservative press is full of irregularities that favor democrats.. I think it more likely that the press is biased than the voting machinery. There have to be some democrats working for those companies..?

-Kelly




Sent from my Samsung Epic? 4G TouchAdrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 8:36 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>>... On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes
> On Tue, Oct 30, 2012 at 8:31 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>>>... it is starting to look more and more like whoever wins in Ohio wins.
>
>>...The state whose government has been pulling strong and legally
> questionable means to swing the vote Republican?
>
> No, that was in the next state over, Pennsylvania:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=neGbKHyGuHU

Not what I meant.? I meant tactics which go after the registrars
and records of vote - which completely bypass the voters.
Doesn't matter if you're polling 70%, even 90%, if the official
record can be tweaked to report you at 49% to the other one's
50%.

http://www.michaelparenti.org/stolenelections.html

>>...It's not the vote that counts, it's who counts the votes...
>
> Ja.? What astonishes me is that even after that 2000 Florida debacle, we
> didn't systematically put in place any system that would trace the act of
> voting to any kind of biometric identification system.? When I saw that
> going on, weeks before the result was announced, I saw it as a huge victory
> for those who would decrease the margin of error for elections.? I was
> appalled when nothing was done.? I don't understand why the losing side in
> that didn't press for better accountability in elections.

Because they were the losing side, and thus unable to press.
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding who to have for
dinner," and all that.

This may be encouraging certain Republicans' (and, to a lesser
extend, certain Democrats') "no compromise" attitude.? Any
compromise could lead to an acceptance of an investigation that
was not totally under their control, which runs the risk of pointing
out that, in fact, they did steal the election.

With proof this blatant about the Presidential race, I would not be
surprised if a detailed investigation revealed similar tactics on a
smaller scale for many Congressional races - up to and including
the tactics employed to try to exclude non-Democrat/Republican
candidates from the ballot altogether.
_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
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From anders at aleph.se  Fri Nov  2 09:15:44 2012
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2012 09:15:44 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Who is covering corruption in AI?
In-Reply-To: <5092D079.9080402@aleph.se>
References: <CAEUzo3JTTPvp3Kcv8=7OOWmn6sKwTx=gTRuZiOU6PQ9N4tp4fw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNSCyVj2Pc_Y9hO1gT5H+VPTaKdDH3Ewv0udO0Y-z7R1kA@mail.gmail.com>
 <0406B258-3367-4ADD-A9FA-7D6EFDD1E069@gmail.com> <5092D079.9080402@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <50938F40.2030409@aleph.se>

Hmm, AI corruption is interesting on its own. Normally, we say an 
official is corrupt if they allow bribes or other considerations to 
alter their decisions because they give them personal benefits - a break 
of the abstraction barrier of "rule of law, not of men".

A lot of people have believed AI would be incorruptible since it would 
lack these incentives. Which seems to be a mistake. First, the AI might 
have been programmed by a corrupt programmer, opening windows for 
bribing *him* to get desired outcomes. Second, there might exist 
exploits that make the AI behave in ways that are not according to the 
legal specs. Third, the AI might actually have "personal" interests that 
are not in line with what the creators wanted - especially ones that 
emerge from self-enhancement. It doesn't have to be full and dramatic 
Omohundro drives, but could be as simple as a counterpart to how a 
bureaucracy tends to expand. Give the AI official a choice  between 
doing A and B, and it will do A since it will give it more resources, 
and those resources will allow it to do what it was intended to achieve 
much better in the long run. So maybe we need to give AI officials a 
very rapid discount rate.

-- 
Anders Sandberg,
Future of Humanity Institute
Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University



From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Fri Nov  2 10:27:08 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2012 11:27:08 +0100
Subject: [ExI] satanist ethics,
 was: names in subject lines... was: something else before that
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armi-P_jQZGa5rSQB0TaYS5WE4ZV3ZmwL3rJ0x0jYXhQH1w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <010401cdb79a$bfe38ce0$3faaa6a0$@att.net>
 <CAL_armi-P_jQZGa5rSQB0TaYS5WE4ZV3ZmwL3rJ0x0jYXhQH1w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a4ANPJkyQyW6pdCWp02Ptjmby=x_b_kunOekK_mgXrrXQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 31 October 2012 20:45, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:

> Whether you are religious or atheist is not relevant to bad social
> behaviours.
>

My point was more limited than Spike's.

Definitions of "bad" do vary, but of course the efficiency of a group is
defined by some basic loyalty parameters *which do not depend on its
specific ethos*.

We took the satanist exemple, but to be more specific to the discussion at
thand: even in a gang of thieves you are expected not to appropriate the
group's resources for your private use.

You do, you may be forgiven or understood depending the circumstances, but
certainly the theft perpertrated is not acceptable per se.

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From pizerdavid at yahoo.com  Fri Nov  2 23:50:17 2012
From: pizerdavid at yahoo.com (david pizer)
Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2012 16:50:17 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics meeting Saturday (reminder)
Message-ID: <1351900217.84697.YahooMailNeo@web121703.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

Welcome all who are planning to be in or near? the Scottsdale area tomorrow (Saturday).
?
You are invited to a Venturist meet up at Jack Sinclair's house at 2 pm (until 3:30)
?
Everyone who is a cryonicist or immortalist is welcome to come by.
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From spike66 at att.net  Sat Nov  3 19:02:46 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2012 12:02:46 -0700
Subject: [ExI] pets, mirrors and cryonics
Message-ID: <003d01cdb9f5$cff97290$6fec57b0$@att.net>

 

Some dogs and cats recognize themselves in a mirror and some do not.  Some
don't recognize themselves as kittens and puppies, but later either
recognize themselves or just get used to the furry thing that passes nearby
whenever they walk past the mirror, and do not react.  Some pet owners
remove mirrors from the floor level to deal with the problem, then the adult
cat still gets their back up when they see themselves.

 

Question please pet owners: are you willing to share how your pet reacts to
its own image?  Or if the pet's behavior change over its life?  Anyone know
if there is an online database on this sort of thing, or a study?

 

There's a reason why I am asking, that is actually related to cryonics of
all things, and the reason why I will probably sign up, even if I live long
enough to suffer extensive brain degradation.  I am currently caring for a
family member with Alzheimers, a bad case.  She now often does not recognize
mirrors, commenting that there is a window open or a hole in the wall in the
bathroom, and that someone was looking in, etc.  She doesn't recognize her
own image in the mirror, or rather doesn't always.  Our temporary way to
deal is to remove mirrors where practical, but it isn't in all cases: some
mirrors are stuck to the wall with adhesive, and I don't want to wreck the
drywall trying to get it down, so we thought we might try white shoe polish
on the mirror, since the wall is white.  Turns out we might not need to do
that either, for the patient is now afraid to go into that downstairs
bathroom, for she vaguely remembers there is something freaky about it, a
strong negative emotion associated with that bathroom, such as seeing an
elderly woman gazing in a window.  Oy vey.

 

What has all this to do with cryonics?  Last night we were looking at old
photo albums with the patient, and found a picture from a family vacation
taken about 20 years ago to Arizona, where we went to see the Grand Canyon
and the cliff dwellings.  The AD patient astonished us by commenting "Oh
that's Serafina Little, who fixed Grandpa's glasses."  This was right on:
Serafina Little was a young Native American woman who had an optometry shop
on a local reservation.  My father-in-law bent his metal frame glasses, we
went there, she straightened them, we had a pleasant conversation with her
for about 20 minutes to half an hour where she explained the Rainbow Bridge
and its meaning to the native people.  Then we never saw her again.

 

So yesterday when the AD family member was failing to recognize her own
image in the mirror, she pulled out a name from a pleasant acquaintance we
met 20 years ago.  So this got me to wondering if any of this has anything
to do with pets recognizing themselves in a mirror, and if so, is there
anything we can learn from watching them, and does it tell us anything about
how information is stored in a damaged or aging brain, and how can we use
these observations to compare beasts which have little on the way of a
frontal lobe structures with beasts who have extensive primate brain
structures?  And if so, is there reason to believe that some information
somehow stays encoded in a damaged brain, and perhaps can be somehow
eventually decoded after cryonic suspension?  Are there redundant mechanisms
whereby some memories are stored somehow in multiple copies like a hologram,
and some areas of the AD patient's brain somehow are less effected so they
retain a version of the memories?  Or is there some kind of reasoning
process involved in interpreting one's own mirror image that can be damaged
while other reasoning areas remain intact, and can it shed any light on the
question by observing our pets?  Do lizards have any self-recognition for
instance, with only reptilian brains?  Is self-recognition in pets related
to their general intelligence, or can you have dogs which do not react at
all because they are too stupid to recognize anything in a mirror, along
with dogs who do not react because they know the image is themselves, and
dogs in the middle of the intelligence range, who aren't sure, but bark
anyway?

 

These observations actually encourage me in cryonics, because it tells me
there is a lot of stuff we don't understand about how the brain works, and
perhaps some memories which could be somehow preserved by means we don't
understand.

 

Do feel free to allow this discussion to bifurcate into pets, cryonics and
AD patients, for I realize I just dumped a huge list of only vaguely related
questions here.

 

spike

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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Sat Nov  3 21:15:58 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2012 22:15:58 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Life @ Playstation
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a7TfytDPq0BJsuV3vuh0AMFhzDP5tDDw5fJsG3woRd6QQ@mail.gmail.com>

Veeeeeeeeeeeeery disappointing.
http://blog.us.playstation.com/2012/10/21/ps3-system-software-update-v4-30/

And one cannot really find information over the Net as to "why".
-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From mbb386 at main.nc.us  Sat Nov  3 22:08:43 2012
From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB)
Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2012 18:08:43 -0400
Subject: [ExI] pets, mirrors and cryonics
In-Reply-To: <003d01cdb9f5$cff97290$6fec57b0$@att.net>
References: <003d01cdb9f5$cff97290$6fec57b0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <496c8f1948cb5a2a1c7c852a361c5cd8.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>

Betta fish may fight (to the death?) with their mirror image.

I've understood that some birds (males) will fight with
the reflection they see in the window - protecting the
territory.

I've never moved a mirror for a cat or dog, and don't
recall any of our dogs/puppies having a reaction. The cats
(as kittens) almost always did, and it was a fun thing to
watch as they all fluffed up and stood on tiptoe and
pranced about. But that reaction didn't continue long,
they soon became accustomed and just ignored the mirror. I
don't recall any adult cat having a reaction.

Alzheimer patients are known for the amazing distant
memories they pull out of nowhere.  If you are wanting
fmaily history, this may be a last opportunity, utilizing
the photo album.

Also, song lyrics are remembered when many spoken words
are lost.  Perhaps you will find that singing old songs is
a pleasant shared activity.  Perhaps hymns (I know you are
just longing to sing old hymns, not).

It's hard to know what to say, spike - but I send best
wishes to you for the duration. It's a terrible thing to
watch.

Regards,
MB




From charlie.stross at gmail.com  Sat Nov  3 22:16:38 2012
From: charlie.stross at gmail.com (Charlie Stross)
Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2012 22:16:38 +0000
Subject: [ExI] pets, mirrors and cryonics
In-Reply-To: <496c8f1948cb5a2a1c7c852a361c5cd8.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
References: <003d01cdb9f5$cff97290$6fec57b0$@att.net>
 <496c8f1948cb5a2a1c7c852a361c5cd8.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
Message-ID: <D1FB75DD-97FD-4DA4-9A69-167C2D2A4B30@gmail.com>


On 3 Nov 2012, at 22:08, MB <mbb386 at main.nc.us> wrote:
> 
> I've never moved a mirror for a cat or dog, and don't
> recall any of our dogs/puppies having a reaction. The cats
> (as kittens) almost always did, and it was a fun thing to
> watch as they all fluffed up and stood on tiptoe and
> pranced about. But that reaction didn't continue long,
> they soon became accustomed and just ignored the mirror. I
> don't recall any adult cat having a reaction.

Not sure about mirrors, but I've noticed a profound variation between individual cats in their response to other stimuli. Some ignore the laser pointer's red dot. Others chase it. And one in particular would make eye contact with me, point themselves at the laser pointer, make eye contact again, and meow until I made the red dot appear for her. She'd clearly worked out where it was coming from, and why.

(I once recorded her vocalizations using a PDA and played them back to her; she got *really* alarmed. Other cats didn't respond to the same test the same way. Alas, she died a decade ago.)


-- Charlie


From spike66 at att.net  Sat Nov  3 22:39:46 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2012 15:39:46 -0700
Subject: [ExI] pets, mirrors and cryonics
In-Reply-To: <496c8f1948cb5a2a1c7c852a361c5cd8.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
References: <003d01cdb9f5$cff97290$6fec57b0$@att.net>
 <496c8f1948cb5a2a1c7c852a361c5cd8.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
Message-ID: <003301cdba14$22331de0$669959a0$@att.net>


On Behalf Of MB
Subject: Re: [ExI] pets, mirrors and cryonics

>...Betta fish may fight (to the death?) with their mirror image...

Ja, I have seen that, thanks for the reminder.

>...I've understood that some birds (males) will fight with the reflection
they see in the window - protecting the territory...

Ja, my folks have sand hill cranes living around the lake in the back yard.
The cranes kept coming up and fighting with their reflection in the window.
It was funny until they broke one.  Sand hill cranes can reach six ft tall.
So they now just blacked out the window.

>...I've never moved a mirror for a cat or dog, and don't recall any of our
dogs/puppies having a reaction. The cats (as kittens) almost always did, and
it was a fun thing to watch as they all fluffed up and stood on tiptoe and
pranced about. But that reaction didn't continue long, they soon became
accustomed and just ignored the mirror. I don't recall any adult cat having
a reaction...

Excellent thanks MB, this is the data I was looking for.  The dogs and cats
figured it out as they grew into what would correspond to adolescence
approximately.

>...Alzheimer patients are known for the amazing distant memories they pull
out of nowhere.  If you are wanting fmaily history, this may be a last
opportunity, utilizing the photo album...

We anticipated the problem and worked proactively.  I managed to get both of
my inlaws and my grandmother in law to write their memoirs.  I inserted
digitized family photos in my FiL's autobiography, and it turned into a fun
story.  My MiL and GMiL both were all too caught up in being church ladies
to really open up, but what we have is better than nothing.

The Serafina Little comment has me thinking about how we store memories:
they are strongly linked to emotions.  For instance, if applicable, you
remember exactly where you were and what you were doing when you heard that
your grandfather passed away.  Fill in all family members who have passed.
When we met Serafina Little, it was a pleasant unexpected experience which
none of us present at the time have ever forgotten.  She was such a nice
kind-hearted young lady, we wanted to hug her, or adopt her.  Most
emotion-linked memories are unpleasant, but some are good, such as your
sports-moment, when you hit it over everyone's head with the bases loaded or
rang someone's bell with the boxing gloves.  Perhaps more clear are our
unpleasant memories of when the Challenger exploded, or when Reagan got
shot, and certainly the 9/11/01 attacks.

>...It's hard to know what to say, spike - but I send best wishes to you for
the duration. It's a terrible thing to watch.  Regards, MB
_______________________________________________

Thanks MB, we are doing our best.  We decided to use turtle-wax instead of
shoe polish on the mirrors, since it is easier to clean off after the fact.

There just are no right answers with Alzheimers.

spike



From gsantostasi at gmail.com  Sat Nov  3 22:54:06 2012
From: gsantostasi at gmail.com (Giovanni Santostasi)
Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2012 17:54:06 -0500
Subject: [ExI] pets, mirrors and cryonics
In-Reply-To: <003d01cdb9f5$cff97290$6fec57b0$@att.net>
References: <003d01cdb9f5$cff97290$6fec57b0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAL+RtPdx3MqF8EgC=rEJBhGwOP=q5pnky_nJaq1qGFdm+Kh1Ag@mail.gmail.com>

All this is very fascinating story even if so sad. Alzheimer isa  terrible
disease. I can say that the recognition about one owns face requires
activation of high level cognition networks, breaking down of connectivity
could impair dramatically this function. In fact, recognizing one face in a
mirror is used as a test for self awareness in other animals and supposedly
very few species can do that. Long term memory is distributed over many
areas in the cortex and memory of faces are particular robust. There is
even some evidence that there are particular neurons dedicated to a
particular face identification. What is also interesting is how she
interprets the mirror as a window having lost its ability to reflect. It
kind almost makes sense. It is interesting how the mind is always trying to
make up a story that explains the world even as it dies out.
Best luck to you and your family. Hopefully science can solve this problem
soon.
Giovanni


On Sat, Nov 3, 2012 at 2:02 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

> ** **
>
> Some dogs and cats recognize themselves in a mirror and some do not.  Some
> don?t recognize themselves as kittens and puppies, but later either
> recognize themselves or just get used to the furry thing that passes nearby
> whenever they walk past the mirror, and do not react.  Some pet owners
> remove mirrors from the floor level to deal with the problem, then the
> adult cat still gets their back up when they see themselves.****
>
> ** **
>
> Question please pet owners: are you willing to share how your pet reacts
> to its own image?  Or if the pet?s behavior change over its life?  Anyone
> know if there is an online database on this sort of thing, or a study?****
>
> ** **
>
> There?s a reason why I am asking, that is actually related to cryonics of
> all things, and the reason why I will probably sign up, even if I live long
> enough to suffer extensive brain degradation.  I am currently caring for a
> family member with Alzheimers, a bad case.  She now often does not
> recognize mirrors, commenting that there is a window open or a hole in the
> wall in the bathroom, and that someone was looking in, etc.  She doesn?t
> recognize her own image in the mirror, or rather doesn?t always.  Our
> temporary way to deal is to remove mirrors where practical, but it isn?t in
> all cases: some mirrors are stuck to the wall with adhesive, and I don?t
> want to wreck the drywall trying to get it down, so we thought we might try
> white shoe polish on the mirror, since the wall is white.  Turns out we
> might not need to do that either, for the patient is now afraid to go into
> that downstairs bathroom, for she vaguely remembers there is something
> freaky about it, a strong negative emotion associated with that bathroom,
> such as seeing an elderly woman gazing in a window.  Oy vey.****
>
> ** **
>
> What has all this to do with cryonics?  Last night we were looking at old
> photo albums with the patient, and found a picture from a family vacation
> taken about 20 years ago to Arizona, where we went to see the Grand Canyon
> and the cliff dwellings.  The AD patient astonished us by commenting ?Oh
> that?s Serafina Little, who fixed Grandpa?s glasses.?  This was right on:
> Serafina Little was a young Native American woman who had an optometry shop
> on a local reservation.  My father-in-law bent his metal frame glasses, we
> went there, she straightened them, we had a pleasant conversation with her
> for about 20 minutes to half an hour where she explained the Rainbow Bridge
> and its meaning to the native people.  Then we never saw her again.****
>
> ** **
>
> So yesterday when the AD family member was failing to recognize her own
> image in the mirror, she pulled out a name from a pleasant acquaintance we
> met 20 years ago.  So this got me to wondering if any of this has anything
> to do with pets recognizing themselves in a mirror, and if so, is there
> anything we can learn from watching them, and does it tell us anything
> about how information is stored in a damaged or aging brain, and how can we
> use these observations to compare beasts which have little on the way of a
> frontal lobe structures with beasts who have extensive primate brain
> structures?  And if so, is there reason to believe that some information
> somehow stays encoded in a damaged brain, and perhaps can be somehow
> eventually decoded after cryonic suspension?  Are there redundant
> mechanisms whereby some memories are stored somehow in multiple copies like
> a hologram, and some areas of the AD patient?s brain somehow are less
> effected so they retain a version of the memories?  Or is there some kind
> of reasoning process involved in interpreting one?s own mirror image that
> can be damaged while other reasoning areas remain intact, and can it shed
> any light on the question by observing our pets?  Do lizards have any
> self-recognition for instance, with only reptilian brains?  Is
> self-recognition in pets related to their general intelligence, or can you
> have dogs which do not react at all because they are too stupid to
> recognize anything in a mirror, along with dogs who do not react because
> they know the image is themselves, and dogs in the middle of the
> intelligence range, who aren?t sure, but bark anyway?****
>
> ** **
>
> These observations actually encourage me in cryonics, because it tells me
> there is a lot of stuff we don?t understand about how the brain works, and
> perhaps some memories which could be somehow preserved by means we don?t
> understand.****
>
> ** **
>
> Do feel free to allow this discussion to bifurcate into pets, cryonics and
> AD patients, for I realize I just dumped a huge list of only vaguely
> related questions here.****
>
> ** **
>
> spike****
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From mbb386 at main.nc.us  Sat Nov  3 23:35:21 2012
From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB)
Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2012 19:35:21 -0400
Subject: [ExI] pets, mirrors and cryonics
In-Reply-To: <003301cdba14$22331de0$669959a0$@att.net>
References: <003d01cdb9f5$cff97290$6fec57b0$@att.net>
 <496c8f1948cb5a2a1c7c852a361c5cd8.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
 <003301cdba14$22331de0$669959a0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <6c8edfd2e5bdf4b7896667cf85dbb1de.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>



>>...Betta fish may fight (to the death?) with their mirror
>> image...
>
> Ja, I have seen that, thanks for the reminder.

I do not think the betta fish were *self* aware at all,
they just knew that the reflection was a betta and needed
to die.


> The cranes kept coming up and fighting with their
> reflection in the window.
> It was funny until they broke one.  Sand hill cranes can
> reach six ft tall.
> So they now just blacked out the window.

They broke the window or did they break a sand hill crane?
 I've heard that blue jays and cardinals and humming birds
will do this, but it's by no means self awareness, only
recognition of an "enemy".


> My MiL and GMiL both were all too caught up in
> being church ladies

Hence my suggestion of singing hymns or even playing
recordings of hymns. As a comfort if nothing else. I
recalled your saying there was religion in the background
and now you are looking for comfort food for the soul, so
to speak.


>
>  We decided to use
> turtle-wax instead of
> shoe polish on the mirrors, since it is easier to clean
> off after the fact.

Good thinking! :)


>
> There just are no right answers with Alzheimers.

That's the horrible truth.

Best regards,
MB




From msd001 at gmail.com  Sat Nov  3 23:19:42 2012
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2012 19:19:42 -0400
Subject: [ExI] pets, mirrors and cryonics
In-Reply-To: <003301cdba14$22331de0$669959a0$@att.net>
References: <003d01cdb9f5$cff97290$6fec57b0$@att.net>
 <496c8f1948cb5a2a1c7c852a361c5cd8.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
 <003301cdba14$22331de0$669959a0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAOJFdbLHfHn52VMV+dC_T5bZK4=ta_McjCcXC55Z69A5-ji-cw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Nov 3, 2012 at 6:39 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> There just are no right answers with Alzheimers.

I was researching paleo-compliant pizza crust and saw this:

"Coconut Oil to me seems the most interesting as it both contains safe
saturated oils, and MCTs, which are very beneficial and easily convert
to ketones. They seem to be very useful for folks whose brains can no
longer handle glucose properly (i.e. Alzheimer's/aka "Type 3" diabetes
as per Dr. Bruce Fife et al.)"

from: http://paleohacks.com/questions/125537/the-great-coconut-obsession#axzz2BCY1qski

Were you already aware of Dr.Bruce Fife's "Stop Alzheimer's Now!"?

I would have been very skeptical of the reported health benefits of
paleo had it been marketed to me.  I'm not really endorsing anybody's
philosophy or religion - mostly passing along a bit of info: ymmv.


From mbb386 at main.nc.us  Sun Nov  4 00:37:22 2012
From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB)
Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2012 20:37:22 -0400
Subject: [ExI] pets, mirrors and cryonics
In-Reply-To: <D1FB75DD-97FD-4DA4-9A69-167C2D2A4B30@gmail.com>
References: <003d01cdb9f5$cff97290$6fec57b0$@att.net>
 <496c8f1948cb5a2a1c7c852a361c5cd8.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
 <D1FB75DD-97FD-4DA4-9A69-167C2D2A4B30@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <52d686f497bc7faef0920352831acab1.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>

Charlie Stross writes:
> Not sure about mirrors, but I've noticed a profound
> variation between individual cats in their response to
> other stimuli. Some ignore the laser pointer's red dot.
> Others chase it. And one in particular would make eye
> contact with me, point themselves at the laser pointer,
> make eye contact again, and meow until I made the red dot
> appear for her. She'd clearly worked out where it was
> coming from, and why.

That's clever, I've not seen an instance of it. But I
don't have a laser pointer myself, so haven't played Red
Dot with my cat. Have watched others play that game with
their cats. :)


>
> (I once recorded her vocalizations using a PDA and played
> them back to her; she got *really* alarmed. Other cats
> didn't respond to the same test the same way. Alas, she
> died a decade ago.)

My nephew is extremely good at making cat noises - usually
the cats become confused and start searching. They don't
do that for me, I haven't the skill.  Never tried
recording the cat, and the cat I have now is almost silent
so no point.

Maybe I'll try recording the outside semi-feral cat and
see what he does.... ;) He frequently answers me when I
call his name or meow.

Regards,
MB



From rtomek at ceti.pl  Sun Nov  4 03:07:36 2012
From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola)
Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2012 04:07:36 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [ExI] Life @ Playstation
In-Reply-To: <CAPoR7a7TfytDPq0BJsuV3vuh0AMFhzDP5tDDw5fJsG3woRd6QQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPoR7a7TfytDPq0BJsuV3vuh0AMFhzDP5tDDw5fJsG3woRd6QQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1211040351090.1564@tau.ceti.pl>

On Sat, 3 Nov 2012, Stefano Vaj wrote:

> Veeeeeeeeeeeeery disappointing.
> http://blog.us.playstation.com/2012/10/21/ps3-system-software-update-v4-30/
> 
> And one cannot really find information over the Net as to "why".
> 

My very wild guess, PS3 is no longer significant for this kind of task.

Based on some wikipedia reading:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folding at home

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_with_PlayStation

An "old new" version of F at H for PS could deliver about (1500000 GFlops / 
52000 users) ~= 29 GFlops per one PS3. Five years ago, this was 
significant. Today this is not so impressive, when compared to new CPUs, 
or even old ones (green is for GFlops):

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/fx-8150-zambezi-bulldozer-990fx,3043-14.html

I would expect even better performance from GPUs. Given that they have a 
deadline for every workunit, a slower cpu is going to decrease 
performance of the whole project.

As I say, just a guess.

Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.      **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home    **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...      **
**                                                                 **
** Tomasz Rola          mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com             **


From spike66 at att.net  Sun Nov  4 05:50:29 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2012 22:50:29 -0700
Subject: [ExI] pets, mirrors and cryonics
In-Reply-To: <003301cdba14$22331de0$669959a0$@att.net>
References: <003d01cdb9f5$cff97290$6fec57b0$@att.net>
 <496c8f1948cb5a2a1c7c852a361c5cd8.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
 <003301cdba14$22331de0$669959a0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <005a01cdba50$4c2eadd0$e48c0970$@att.net>

Note this post is from Taurus, although it is under my name.  I approved it
and it showed up as approval acknowledged over an hour ago but for some
reason it didn't show up in the inbox.  Sometimes the server does this, I
don't know what is up with it, and I am not an internet hipster.  In any
case, Taurus had some really interesting information about neurodegenerative
processes, so I didn't want to risk his message being lost in the ethereal
nothingness of wherever bit-streams go when they don't get to where they
were sent.

Welcome Taurus Londono, great first post man!

spike

Londono wrote:


Spike,
I want to thank you for sharing these poignant experiences. I'm a lurker,
but your message spurred me to respond.

It is not generally recognized that dogs pass the traditional mirror test. 
Of course, this seems contrary to experience once you've actually raised a
dog. One way I test my Basset Hound when he's facing a mirror;
Nosferatu-style hands slowly creeping up behind him; he eyes the hands in
the mirror and quickly turns around just like a human would. Odorless dye
method is evidently flawed.

My understanding is that the failure of Alzheimer's patients to recognize
themselves in the mirror is unrelated to the latent neurological potential
to do so (shared with some animals) *per se*. AFAIK, this is a result of the
accumulating loss of dendritic spines; ie the memory of the patient's most
recent physical appearance. AFAIK, it is not the case that the
neurodegenerative process is necessarily selective for the most recent
ultrastructural changes; synaptic alterations can initially leave recently
formed memories isolated if not intact. However, LTP is the first to go, and
long-term memories (and the emotional reinforcement you correctly cite)
appear to have greater resistance to the onset of disruptions in expression
of amyloid precursor protein.

The consequence is that the old Cryonics adage applies; last in, first out.

You're right to appreciate how serious this issue is with respect to
information theoretic death. FWIW, the inimitable Mike Darwin has focused a
considerable amount of attention on the topic. The only silver lining is
that it is easier to envision biomedical amelioration than with, say,
cancer. Pharmaceuticals are already approaching some semblance of a capacity
to address this terrible disease.

- Taurus Londono 




From giulio at gmail.com  Sun Nov  4 07:32:51 2012
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2012 08:32:51 +0100
Subject: [ExI] pets, mirrors and cryonics
In-Reply-To: <005a01cdba50$4c2eadd0$e48c0970$@att.net>
References: <003d01cdb9f5$cff97290$6fec57b0$@att.net>
 <496c8f1948cb5a2a1c7c852a361c5cd8.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
 <003301cdba14$22331de0$669959a0$@att.net>
 <005a01cdba50$4c2eadd0$e48c0970$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAKTCJycxYnM2OYQz7j2egY8WmrQzuV0bhYPmqs9p+kq0wGoyxQ@mail.gmail.com>

"Question please pet owners: are you willing to share how your pet reacts
to its own image?"

Not at all. My Sacha is the sweetest doggy in the world, but does not show
any reaction to her image in the mirror. But then, dogs rely on smell as
much as they rely on sight, perhaps more. I guess dogs would react
differently to some kind of olfactive mirror that echoes their own smell
back.

By comparison, my daughter started to recognize the little girl in the
mirror when she was 9 or 10 months old.


On Sun, Nov 4, 2012 at 6:50 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

> Note this post is from Taurus, although it is under my name.  I approved it
> and it showed up as approval acknowledged over an hour ago but for some
> reason it didn't show up in the inbox.  Sometimes the server does this, I
> don't know what is up with it, and I am not an internet hipster.  In any
> case, Taurus had some really interesting information about
> neurodegenerative
> processes, so I didn't want to risk his message being lost in the ethereal
> nothingness of wherever bit-streams go when they don't get to where they
> were sent.
>
> Welcome Taurus Londono, great first post man!
>
> spike
>
> Londono wrote:
>
>
> Spike,
> I want to thank you for sharing these poignant experiences. I'm a lurker,
> but your message spurred me to respond.
>
> It is not generally recognized that dogs pass the traditional mirror test.
> Of course, this seems contrary to experience once you've actually raised a
> dog. One way I test my Basset Hound when he's facing a mirror;
> Nosferatu-style hands slowly creeping up behind him; he eyes the hands in
> the mirror and quickly turns around just like a human would. Odorless dye
> method is evidently flawed.
>
> My understanding is that the failure of Alzheimer's patients to recognize
> themselves in the mirror is unrelated to the latent neurological potential
> to do so (shared with some animals) *per se*. AFAIK, this is a result of
> the
> accumulating loss of dendritic spines; ie the memory of the patient's most
> recent physical appearance. AFAIK, it is not the case that the
> neurodegenerative process is necessarily selective for the most recent
> ultrastructural changes; synaptic alterations can initially leave recently
> formed memories isolated if not intact. However, LTP is the first to go,
> and
> long-term memories (and the emotional reinforcement you correctly cite)
> appear to have greater resistance to the onset of disruptions in expression
> of amyloid precursor protein.
>
> The consequence is that the old Cryonics adage applies; last in, first out.
>
> You're right to appreciate how serious this issue is with respect to
> information theoretic death. FWIW, the inimitable Mike Darwin has focused a
> considerable amount of attention on the topic. The only silver lining is
> that it is easier to envision biomedical amelioration than with, say,
> cancer. Pharmaceuticals are already approaching some semblance of a
> capacity
> to address this terrible disease.
>
> - Taurus Londono
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Sun Nov  4 11:21:46 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2012 12:21:46 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Life @ Playstation
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1211040351090.1564@tau.ceti.pl>
References: <CAPoR7a7TfytDPq0BJsuV3vuh0AMFhzDP5tDDw5fJsG3woRd6QQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1211040351090.1564@tau.ceti.pl>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a72WohEYQx2vErC=Cn0yVTSM6Vbs2+==cNxurPHdrePqg@mail.gmail.com>

On 4 November 2012 04:07, Tomasz Rola <rtomek at ceti.pl> wrote:
> My very wild guess, PS3 is no longer significant for this kind of task.


Mmhhh.

It would appear that as of yesterday 172244 Windows CPUs deliver 179
Teraflops to the project, 16557 PS3s deliver 985 x86-equivalent
Teraflops, which makes for a couple of orders of magnitude greater
performance for PS3

Morever, the project appear to have still some 2000 PowerPC Macintosh
(!) contributing a couple of Teraflops, even though this client *is*
being phased out.

Even worse, the number of processors involved seems steadily
declining, to a point where in terms of aggregated flops, which at a
time were bordering on the 10 Petaflops, defections are not even
compensated by the increasing processor performance.

This is really disappointing for me, because I have grown quite fond
of the project and the idea behind it, have established a
TranshumanistFoldingTeam, no. 157440 and have become an evangelist for
transhumanists' support to Folding at Home; and the situation above risks
to become a vicious circle, making the initiative, the novelty of
which has expired for a long time, marginal and outfashioned, in spite
of Prof. Pande's delusional videos and presentations about "exaflops
in reach".

My wild guesses on what the reasons may be?
- failure to communicate: you cannot keep people motivated when the
only life sign is one or two rather obscure and/or autoreferential (as
in "Folding at Home simulates a millisecond folding") papers a year in
specialist journals, and you go on for months without updating your
blog;
- failure to deliver: the hype has always been not on fundamental
research, but on the development of Alzheimer- or Parkinson-related
drugs, which are of course far away;
- failure to counter the general paranoia about energy (see the
ridiculous stories about electronic devices standby...), where
possible contributors feel more righteous in, and expect to save some
money by, switching off their processors rather than paying the
equivalent of a coffee a week to contribute their processor cycles for
a better future, or at least for a better understanding of fundamental
biochemistry.


--
Stefano Vaj


From spike66 at att.net  Sun Nov  4 12:34:09 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2012 04:34:09 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Life @ Playstation
In-Reply-To: <CAPoR7a72WohEYQx2vErC=Cn0yVTSM6Vbs2+==cNxurPHdrePqg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPoR7a7TfytDPq0BJsuV3vuh0AMFhzDP5tDDw5fJsG3woRd6QQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1211040351090.1564@tau.ceti.pl>
 <CAPoR7a72WohEYQx2vErC=Cn0yVTSM6Vbs2+==cNxurPHdrePqg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <001601cdba88$b0e81210$12b83630$@att.net>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] 
[]
Subject: Re: [ExI] Life @ Playstation

On 4 November 2012 04:07, Tomasz Rola <rtomek at ceti.pl> wrote:
> My very wild guess, PS3 is no longer significant for this kind of task.

 
}\\\Mmhhh.

>...It would appear that as of yesterday 172244 Windows CPUs deliver 179
Teraflops to the project, 16557 PS3s deliver 985 x86-equivalent Teraflops,
which makes for a couple of orders of magnitude greater performance for
PS3mm,... where possible contributors feel more righteous in, and expect to
save some money by, switching off their processors rather than paying the
equivalent of a coffee a week to contribute their processor cycles for a
better future, or at least for a better understanding of fundamental
biochemistry.

--
Stefano Vaj
_______________________________________________

Hi Stefano thanks for the info, sir.  Is there any kind of status report or
anything that can be shown for what Folding has accomplished?  It gobbled up
a lotta CPU cycles, and many of us here contributed some, so it stands to
reason there should exist somewhere some kind of progress report, ja?  

Note that the question is not meant as a commentary or certainly not a
criticism   I mean this from the bottom of my heart: Folding has been my
third favorite idle-CPU project, and I am a big fan of those.  Even if the
theory is flawed and we didn't get anything, we demonstrated that idle CPU
cycles can be used for research, so don't feel you need to defend what has
been done.  SETI at home didn't find anything either.  Or look at it this way:
the human genome project didn't do what we thought it would do.  That's why
they call it research: we don't know what is going to happen.

Compute on, my friends!

spike



From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Sun Nov  4 13:17:24 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2012 14:17:24 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Life @ Playstation
In-Reply-To: <001601cdba88$b0e81210$12b83630$@att.net>
References: <CAPoR7a7TfytDPq0BJsuV3vuh0AMFhzDP5tDDw5fJsG3woRd6QQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1211040351090.1564@tau.ceti.pl>
 <CAPoR7a72WohEYQx2vErC=Cn0yVTSM6Vbs2+==cNxurPHdrePqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <001601cdba88$b0e81210$12b83630$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a4hpk+S47RL=Xj31b9S1YUqfK=H+kGqUO6S-Tr+RH_-Yw@mail.gmail.com>

On 4 November 2012 13:34, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

> Hi Stefano thanks for the info, sir.  Is there any kind of status report or
> anything that can be shown for what Folding has accomplished?  It gobbled
> up
> a lotta CPU cycles, and many of us here contributed some, so it stands to
> reason there should exist somewhere some kind of progress report, ja?
>

Accomplishments it terms of fame and fortune for its managers are listed
here:
http://folding.stanford.edu/English/Awards

More seriously, this is the science product as of today:
http://folding.stanford.edu/English/Papers

Even if the theory is flawed and we didn't get anything, we demonstrated
> that idle CPU
> cycles can be used for research, so don't feel you need to defend what has
> been done.  SETI at home didn't find anything either.  Or look at it this
> way:
> the human genome project didn't do what we thought it would do.
>

Yup. I am not into hard sciences myself, and as an "intellectual" I am
mainly concerned with societal values, trends and philosophies, so I have
always paid more attention, eg, to the number of contributors - which tells
us something about what people care of - than to the raw power put together
or the results of a given research axis.

But one area where the two issues overlap is a general cultural environment
where not only does popular prometheism and futurism seem at an all-time
low since 1870, together with investments in, and societal commitment to,
fundamental R&D, but expected breakthroughs are delayed or never happen
also because of a lack of grand, original, out-of-the-box, lateral-thinking
visions in many fields of fundamental science.

In spite of the decline of western educational systems, some geniuses may
well be walking amongst us but if they are real geniuses they are likely
too be engaged in the study of the newest and best Ponzi scheme, and if
they really really have to be into science they probably specialise in
strategies for getting short-term visibility and grants. See Smolin's The
Trouble with Physics.

Alas, most transhumanists do not appear to pay much attention to the
sociology and the cultural anthropology of all that, and trust that the
Kurzweil's S-shaped curves are going to deliver anyway, so that our efforts
- if any - should be devoted to "steer" a progress which is taken for
granted, or to decide how its dividends are to be shared. See for instance
many positions expressed by the Singularity Institute or the IEET.

--
Stefano Vaj
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From brent.allsop at canonizer.com  Sun Nov  4 13:57:37 2012
From: brent.allsop at canonizer.com (Brent Allsop)
Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2012 06:57:37 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Life @ Playstation
In-Reply-To: <CAPoR7a4hpk+S47RL=Xj31b9S1YUqfK=H+kGqUO6S-Tr+RH_-Yw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPoR7a7TfytDPq0BJsuV3vuh0AMFhzDP5tDDw5fJsG3woRd6QQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1211040351090.1564@tau.ceti.pl>
 <CAPoR7a72WohEYQx2vErC=Cn0yVTSM6Vbs2+==cNxurPHdrePqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <001601cdba88$b0e81210$12b83630$@att.net>
 <CAPoR7a4hpk+S47RL=Xj31b9S1YUqfK=H+kGqUO6S-Tr+RH_-Yw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <50967451.2090403@canonizer.com>


Hi Stefano,

Where are you getting all this from?  Especially specifics like "since 
1870"?

All I have is anecdotal evidences, but here's a few things I see that 
seem to say otherwise?

  * Back in the 90's there wasn't even a WTA.  Now the WTA is huge, has
    many chapters and significant activities, and is growing, right?
  * Mormon Transhumanism is certainly growing!  Before 2006, John Grigg
    and I were the only Mormons I knew about.  The MTA really took off
    in 2007, and now there are almost 300 of them.  They have a very
    active board of directors  (I got voted off last year, to many other
    way better than I people) and they know have their annual conference
    which is also growing each year...
  * The average life span continues to go through the roof, despite the
    100 year old DNA limit wall that seems to have been placed in front
    of us.
  * I, as a type 1 juvenile diabetic,  last year, was on the verge of
    needing major laser surgery for my eyes, because the 'bleeders' were
    getting so bad.  (And the eyes mirror what is happening in the rest
    of the nervous and vascular system throughout the body, which can't
    be fixed like the eyes can.) But this year I finally got a "real
    time glucose monitoring system" which has finally given me
    sufficient knowledge about blood sugar levels (still very far from
    perfect) so I can achieve far better blood sugar level controls. 
    Now that I've been on this for almost a year, with way better
    control, my eye doctor says the 'bleeders' in my eyes are now almost
    completely healed and gone.  So I just in time dodged that bullet.
  * My son was diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia.  Before 5 years
    ago, they had almost nothing that could help him, other than things
    like shock therapy.  Today, there is a mountain of drugs that are
    still crude, and often risky, but life is way better with all that. 
    And the best one he is on now, though VERY $1000/month expensive,
    didn't exist till last year.
  * Everyone thinks the costs of medical care are going up because of
    reasons like efficiency, law suites, insurance companies, and so
    on.  But that is all absurd and mistaken ignorance of the crowd.  I
    work in the medical information efficiency field at 3M Health
    Information Systems, and trust me, the types of  AI and computer
    systems finally starting to help with all that is improving things,
    especially efficiency, and we can do so much more important life
    saving analytics now, by leaps and bounds.  The reason the cost of
    health care is going through the roof, is because there are an
    exponential number of life saving things like data analytics, new
    drugs like the one I mentioned for my son.  New systems like this
    real time glucose monitoring system (the "pump" (i.e. artificial
    pancreas) is more than $8000, and it costs > $1000 / month run.)
    which all didn't exist last year.  I get so angry when hear all the
    political candidates say things we need to "stop the out of control
    price increases" or limit it to inflation or worse.  Which is saying
    to me, they want to stop things like what my son and I just got last
    year!!  We need to have a visionary political leader to tell us the
    real reason health care costs are going up.  The fact that the
    average life span continues to grow, isn't free!!  And it is most
    definitely way more than worth it.  We are all going to be much more
    poorer, spending a significantly increased percentage of what we
    earn in life, on health care, but the significantly increased
    quality of life span is going to be way worth it.  We've got to help
    educate the clueless and immoral crowd on this issue, or we're
    headed for a huge and destructive train wreck on this issue.
  * We're continuing the working on the "Consciousness Survey Project"
    at Canonizer.com - now with people like Dennett, Chalmers, Hameroff,
    Lehar, and so many other contributing world class leaders.  And the
    amount of expert consensus, in this field where everyone things
    there is no consensus at all, is totally shocking.  The only
    remaining disagreement is in the exact relationship between
    phenomenal qualities like redness and greenness, and the underlying
    neural correlates or actual physics that are responsible for such. 
    All the leading theories are making real predictions on just how to
    test for each of them, to the falsification of all others. (forcing
    all experts into one camp)  I'm predicting this discovery of the
    relationship between something like a redness quality, to the
    underlying physics, (and the way it will enable us to do things like
    solve the 'problem of other minds' so that you can know if your
    upload is really you or not, will be the greatest scientific
    discovery of all time.  And the fact that there is so much expert
    consensus in this field, already, shows that we've made way more
    progress than anyone realizes.  The growing consensus is, we're
    finally about to really crack the nut of consciousness, and surely
    that will change the world more dramatically than any other
    scientific achievement to date.

Brent Allsop




On 11/4/2012 6:17 AM, Stefano Vaj wrote:
> But one area where the two issues overlap is a general cultural 
> environment where not only does popular prometheism and futurism seem 
> at an all-time low since 1870, together with investments in, and 
> societal commitment to, fundamental R&D, but expected breakthroughs 
> are delayed or never happen also because of a lack of grand, original, 
> out-of-the-box, lateral-thinking visions in many fields of fundamental 
> science.
>
> --
> Stefano Vaj
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

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From brent.allsop at canonizer.com  Sun Nov  4 14:10:10 2012
From: brent.allsop at canonizer.com (Brent Allsop)
Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2012 07:10:10 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Life @ Playstation
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1211040351090.1564@tau.ceti.pl>
References: <CAPoR7a7TfytDPq0BJsuV3vuh0AMFhzDP5tDDw5fJsG3woRd6QQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1211040351090.1564@tau.ceti.pl>
Message-ID: <50967742.4030301@canonizer.com>


I'm not experienced with PS-3s, but I was thinking of getting one some 
day, mostly just to drive my TV.  So I'd definitely love to have the 
system running things like folding at home, since I wouldn't be using it 
for games and such.
Doesn't the PS-3 run on Linux, i.e. you could still install and run 
anything you want?
Or is everything under Sony's control and locked down these days?
If so, how hard is it to jail break the system?

If you can't even run things like folding at home, that significantly 
decreases my motivation to get one.

Brent

On 11/3/2012 9:07 PM, Tomasz Rola wrote:
> On Sat, 3 Nov 2012, Stefano Vaj wrote:
>
>> Veeeeeeeeeeeeery disappointing.
>> http://blog.us.playstation.com/2012/10/21/ps3-system-software-update-v4-30/
>>
>> And one cannot really find information over the Net as to "why".
>>
> My very wild guess, PS3 is no longer significant for this kind of task.
>
> Based on some wikipedia reading:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folding at home
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_with_PlayStation
>
> An "old new" version of F at H for PS could deliver about (1500000 GFlops /
> 52000 users) ~= 29 GFlops per one PS3. Five years ago, this was
> significant. Today this is not so impressive, when compared to new CPUs,
> or even old ones (green is for GFlops):
>
> http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/fx-8150-zambezi-bulldozer-990fx,3043-14.html
>
> I would expect even better performance from GPUs. Given that they have a
> deadline for every workunit, a slower cpu is going to decrease
> performance of the whole project.
>
> As I say, just a guess.
>
> Regards,
> Tomasz Rola
>
> --
> ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.      **
> ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home    **
> ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...      **
> **                                                                 **
> ** Tomasz Rola          mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com             **
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>



From spike66 at att.net  Sun Nov  4 16:36:18 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2012 08:36:18 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Life @ Playstation
In-Reply-To: <50967451.2090403@canonizer.com>
References: <CAPoR7a7TfytDPq0BJsuV3vuh0AMFhzDP5tDDw5fJsG3woRd6QQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1211040351090.1564@tau.ceti.pl>
 <CAPoR7a72WohEYQx2vErC=Cn0yVTSM6Vbs2+==cNxurPHdrePqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <001601cdba88$b0e81210$12b83630$@att.net>
 <CAPoR7a4hpk+S47RL=Xj31b9S1YUqfK=H+kGqUO6S-Tr+RH_-Yw@mail.gmail.com>
 <50967451.2090403@canonizer.com>
Message-ID: <001e01cdbaaa$849eaad0$8ddc0070$@att.net>

 

 

On Behalf Of Brent Allsop
Subject: Re: [ExI] Life @ Playstation

 


>.Hi Stefano,

>.Where are you getting all this from?  Especially specifics like "since
1870"?

>.All I have is anecdotal evidences, but here's a few things I see that seem
to say otherwise?

*	.
*	Mormon Transhumanism is certainly growing! ...

(!)

*	The average life span continues to go through the roof.
*	I, as a type 1 juvenile diabetic,  last year.So I just in time
dodged that bullet.
*	My son was diagnosed . didn't exist till last year.
*	Everyone thinks the costs of medical care are going up .

Excellent points Brent.  Well said.

*	We're continuing the working on the "Consciousness Survey Project"
at Canonizer.com - now with people like Dennett, Chalmers, Hameroff, Lehar,
and so many other contributing world class leaders.  .

 

I admire you for staying on this over the years, even if at times you must
have felt like the lone voice crying out in the wilderness.  It encourages
me to keep on with my favorite idea for which I have a hard time generating
funding or mass enthusiasm, the notion of rigging up virtual realities for
old geezers.  By this I mean of course older than I am geezers, the kind
that live in nursing homes and such.

 

Brent Allsop

Brent you are gift pal.  Best wishes with those medical sitches for you and
your son man.

 

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From brian at posthuman.com  Sun Nov  4 16:41:18 2012
From: brian at posthuman.com (Brian Atkins)
Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2012 10:41:18 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Can you avoid information theoretic death via 1080p? Re: pets,
 mirrors and cryonics
In-Reply-To: <005a01cdba50$4c2eadd0$e48c0970$@att.net>
References: <003d01cdb9f5$cff97290$6fec57b0$@att.net>
 <496c8f1948cb5a2a1c7c852a361c5cd8.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
 <003301cdba14$22331de0$669959a0$@att.net>
 <005a01cdba50$4c2eadd0$e48c0970$@att.net>
Message-ID: <50969AAE.3080504@posthuman.com>

For anyone concerned about information theoretic death, I'd suggest looking into 
the lifelogging/quantified self area as a possible cryonics enhancement.

What good is being revived from cryonics in the far future if your brain lost 
most of its memories and bits prior to you being declared legally dead? This was 
discussed in the recent Cryonics Magazine issue: 
http://www.alcor.org/cryonics/Cryonics2012-5.pdf

Plus there's just a ton of everyday life your brain loses/discards no matter 
what, even if you luck out and avoid dementia; your future self might be 
interested in that stuff. And thirdly there's always the even crazier idea of 
indirect mind uploading/beta-level simulation should your cryonics plan/provider 
fail. Hey, it's better than nothing, and no I don't want to debate the "but, it 
wouldn't really be me!" issue with you today. Finally there are some other 
"everyday" potential benefits (and drawbacks) of recording your life, but that's 
beside the point of this post.

We have cheap multi-terabyte hard drives, 1080p smartphones, hardware h264 
encoders in recent pc cpus/gpus, upcoming Google Glasses, successful kickstarter 
projects for wearable mini lifelogging cameras, health tracking hardware... I'm 
starting to think it's about time to use it all - continuously.

This is a project I'm still researching, so I don't have full implementation 
details to share currently. But would love to hear anyone actually doing 
anything similar (beyond traditional things like diaries/family event photos). I 
am aware of Dr. Roy @ MIT who recorded his child's first years learning to speak 
by wiring his house with 11 cameras.

One thing that looks interesting currently is the Action! pc desktop recorder 
using Intel "Quick Sync" hardware h264 encoding - developer says planning to add 
simultaneous webcam capture as well. On my ivy bridge laptop this will capture 
and compress 1080p without even making the cpu fan run continuously. 
http://mirillis.com/en/products/action.html

I estimate full desktop capture, webcam capture, plus continuous 
smartphone/wearable videocamera capture to run at least 10 TB per year per 
person. So pick your favorite NAS solution (I like Synology). Throw in a tape 
system or other offsite backup too (any cloud systems cheap enough?). You're 
going to want a gigabit network at home too, minimum.

For the phone I'm looking into any recent quadcore android phones with ability 
to use extended size battery, extra sd card storage, and fisheye lens 
attachment, probably worn on belt or in shirt/jacket pocket with camera peeking 
out. If you talk your wife/husband/friends/etc into this and share footage then 
their cameras can capture some of your facial reactions in daily life away from 
your pc which is difficult to get on your own smartphone unless you want to wear 
some silly camera rig like on a reality show.

You will have to check local laws, and hope you live in a location that allows 
one-party consent to audio recordings:

http://www.creditinfocenter.com/forums/collections/317007-states-you-can-can-not-record-phone-calls.html
http://www.smirklive.com/faq.htm
http://content.photojojo.com/tips/legal-rights-of-photographers/
http://www.aclu.org/free-speech/know-your-rights-photographers

(I am not a lawyer)

Having a proper way to search through all this data and make use of it is a 
future project. But I think you could go ahead and assume today that this search 
tech will exist, so you could simply make "marks" in your recordings by just 
speaking certain key words that you plan to search for in the future once the 
audio transcription tech gets good enough. Then it'd be easy to go back and find 
(or avoid) certain sections.

All in all I think we're near the point you can be a Stephenson Gargoyle if you 
want without looking like one. I expect society will adapt over the next several 
years to this reality and begin mostly ignoring it just like people already do 
with the surveillance cameras in businesses and public locations. The ape parts 
of our brains don't seem to object too badly as long as we don't seem to be 
directly stared at by a camera lens.


From rtomek at ceti.pl  Sun Nov  4 17:04:08 2012
From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola)
Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2012 18:04:08 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [ExI] Life @ Playstation
In-Reply-To: <CAPoR7a72WohEYQx2vErC=Cn0yVTSM6Vbs2+==cNxurPHdrePqg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPoR7a7TfytDPq0BJsuV3vuh0AMFhzDP5tDDw5fJsG3woRd6QQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1211040351090.1564@tau.ceti.pl>
 <CAPoR7a72WohEYQx2vErC=Cn0yVTSM6Vbs2+==cNxurPHdrePqg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1211041732160.14058@tau.ceti.pl>

On Sun, 4 Nov 2012, Stefano Vaj wrote:

> On 4 November 2012 04:07, Tomasz Rola <rtomek at ceti.pl> wrote:
> > My very wild guess, PS3 is no longer significant for this kind of task.
> 
> 
> Mmhhh.
> 
> It would appear that as of yesterday 172244 Windows CPUs deliver 179
> Teraflops to the project, 16557 PS3s deliver 985 x86-equivalent
> Teraflops, which makes for a couple of orders of magnitude greater
> performance for PS3
> 
> Morever, the project appear to have still some 2000 PowerPC Macintosh
> (!) contributing a couple of Teraflops, even though this client *is*
> being phased out.

You mean this table?

http://fah-web.stanford.edu/cgi-bin/main.py?qtype=osstats

It is interesting indeed. What it tells me, however, is that only 10% 
Windows machines use GPU for computing. Together (ATI+nVidia) those GPUs 
deliver four times total PS3 power in x86-TFlops, while the number of 
units in both groups roughly matches.

I don't contribute to any of those efforts at the moment. There were times 
when I thought about it, but misc "events" in life prevented me from 
making a step. Besides, usually I need cpu too. Maybe in the future, but 
it is interesting that they have no GPU client for Linux, it seems? Too 
bad, even thou my security-based objections would make it problematic to 
run, basically, a remote execution on my own hardware. I guess it's 
perhaps good I never joined, because it would take me ages to make secure 
setup and in effect I wouldn't have contributed much anyway :-).

Anyway, I have only rough and simplistic understanding of how this all 
works.

Perhaps older clients will be able to perform some job related to 
old-style projects, while newer-faster ones will get more advanced 
abilities and will work on new projects?

So it's not all that bad. Unless you'd like to upgrade your PS3's 
software.

> Even worse, the number of processors involved seems steadily
> declining, to a point where in terms of aggregated flops, which at a
> time were bordering on the 10 Petaflops, defections are not even
> compensated by the increasing processor performance.

Generation change? I guess there was never any kind of research about 
people involved (age, education, income, likes/dislikes)?

Maybe if Falsebook told the crowd to go and install software, this would 
improve things a little.

Maybe in the future there will be Lottery at Home, when users contribute 
and the more they do, the bigger chance of winning holidays on Alaska or 
something.

> - failure to counter the general paranoia about energy (see the
> ridiculous stories about electronic devices standby...), where
> possible contributors feel more righteous in, and expect to save some
> money by, switching off their processors rather than paying the
> equivalent of a coffee a week to contribute their processor cycles for
> a better future, or at least for a better understanding of fundamental
> biochemistry.

Yup. The paranoia is very strong and multifaceted. It goes around cutting 
as much power usage as possible, while not stating the reasons behind the 
whole drive. Or giving some fairy tales for explanation.

Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.      **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home    **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...      **
**                                                                 **
** Tomasz Rola          mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com             **


From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Sun Nov  4 17:26:15 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2012 18:26:15 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Life @ Playstation
In-Reply-To: <50967451.2090403@canonizer.com>
References: <CAPoR7a7TfytDPq0BJsuV3vuh0AMFhzDP5tDDw5fJsG3woRd6QQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1211040351090.1564@tau.ceti.pl>
 <CAPoR7a72WohEYQx2vErC=Cn0yVTSM6Vbs2+==cNxurPHdrePqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <001601cdba88$b0e81210$12b83630$@att.net>
 <CAPoR7a4hpk+S47RL=Xj31b9S1YUqfK=H+kGqUO6S-Tr+RH_-Yw@mail.gmail.com>
 <50967451.2090403@canonizer.com>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a6=B8i=g_xqtz1OyCd8VU=CQkNK7bMuDY+AqmCCee=AiQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 4 November 2012 14:57, Brent Allsop <brent.allsop at canonizer.com> wrote:

>  Where are you getting all this from?  Especially specifics like "since
> 1870"?
> All I have is anecdotal evidences, but here's a few things I see that seem
> to say otherwise?
>

Hey, I derive indeed much comfort from the very existence of the
transhumanist movement, and this is why I am here. :-)

OTOH, I cannot really claim that transhumanist values and mentality are
anywhere near egemony yet, can I?

As to tecnological progress, there are different levels:

- Are we regreding? Luckily enough, most, even though by no means all,
existing and past know-how is here to stay and is not likely to be
significantly lost even in scenarios quite close to extinction. It remains
the case however that for instance the record *and* the average speed of
wheel, air, space and sea transportation is declining or has been
stationary for a long time now. Compare that with the quantum leap
represented by Voyager in comparison with a horse-mounted messenger. And
other examples could be mentioned.

- Is there a significant technological progress in place? The answer is
(still?) a resounding and unqualified yes essentially in the field of ICT,
and in fields that can directly profit from it. The less this is true, the
more leopard-spotted the scenario becomes.

- Is the progress accelerating, or even better is its acceleration itself
increasing? Why, even Kurzweil seems to admit that we find ourselves in the
belly of most of his S-shaped exponential curves...

In any event, I do not underestimate our current achievements, and I like
my smartphone as much as the next guy, but when Mr. Aldrin tells us on the
cover of Newsweek "You promised me Mars colonies, and I got Facebook" this
should give us pause. Especially when many of those achievements can easily
be seen as the feats of the proverbial dwarfs on the shoulders of giants.

This should not invite to pessimism (why couldn't we do as well as, and
better than, our ancestors?) but to a rethinking of the fundamentals traits
of our societies, and ultimately to action.

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Sun Nov  4 17:28:59 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2012 18:28:59 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Life @ Playstation
In-Reply-To: <50967742.4030301@canonizer.com>
References: <CAPoR7a7TfytDPq0BJsuV3vuh0AMFhzDP5tDDw5fJsG3woRd6QQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1211040351090.1564@tau.ceti.pl>
 <50967742.4030301@canonizer.com>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a7N8vA-_GBKkrHnGAxEmuAwSaUdJuz1XnX0dmOVERZK5A@mail.gmail.com>

On 4 November 2012 15:10, Brent Allsop <brent.allsop at canonizer.com> wrote:

> Doesn't the PS-3 run on Linux, i.e. you could still install and run
> anything you want?
> Or is everything under Sony's control and locked down these days?
> If so, how hard is it to jail break the system?
>

It used to run it "legally". The last versions of the OS forbid the
installation of alternative systems.

I understand that jail-breaking it is still possible, but of course this
would void your guarantee, prevent access to the Playstation Network, etc.

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Sun Nov  4 17:42:34 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2012 18:42:34 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Life @ Playstation
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1211041732160.14058@tau.ceti.pl>
References: <CAPoR7a7TfytDPq0BJsuV3vuh0AMFhzDP5tDDw5fJsG3woRd6QQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1211040351090.1564@tau.ceti.pl>
 <CAPoR7a72WohEYQx2vErC=Cn0yVTSM6Vbs2+==cNxurPHdrePqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1211041732160.14058@tau.ceti.pl>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a6Ycm6jiioCiMptOOV8mxFVz8e3suZtYypQfX0WQTR56A@mail.gmail.com>

On 4 November 2012 18:04, Tomasz Rola <rtomek at ceti.pl> wrote:

> You mean this table?
>
> http://fah-web.stanford.edu/cgi-bin/main.py?qtype=osstats
>

Yes.

It is interesting indeed. What it tells me, however, is that only 10%
> Windows machines use GPU for computing. Together (ATI+nVidia) those GPUs
> deliver four times total PS3 power in x86-TFlops, while the number of
> units in both groups roughly matches.
>

What is strange is that client v7.x makes concurrent CPU and GPU folding
very easy (alas, only under Windows), so it is not very clear why so many
more Windows people still do CPU-only.

Moreover, Nvidia users used to have a significant lead over ATI users, then
their number dropped quite significantly. I suspect that Nvidia itself was
running Folding at Home on its PCs and that they stopped at a point in time...

The project leaders insist however that a CPU Teraflop and a GPU Teraflop
are not exactly the same thing, given that the latter is only useful to run
rather specialised projects, often sacrifying accuracy and realism for
speed (eg, explicit or implicit solvent models).

I don't contribute to any of those efforts at the moment. There were times
> when I thought about it, but misc "events" in life prevented me from
> making a step. Besides, usually I need cpu too.


Once upon a time, and on the PS3,  it was a screen saver, so such
considerations did not apply. The existing client is supposed to run at all
time, but is very discreet, meaning that it has the lowest possible
priority, and if you have anything computationally intensive it does not
interfere in the least, it really makes use only of *spare* cycles, which
are wasted anyway. The only tradeoff is that you burn a little more
electricity.

And if one is paranoid, he could run it of course in a sandbox or in a
virtual machine.

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From anders at aleph.se  Sun Nov  4 18:05:03 2012
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2012 18:05:03 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Can you avoid information theoretic death via 1080p? Re:
 pets, mirrors and cryonics
In-Reply-To: <50969AAE.3080504@posthuman.com>
References: <003d01cdb9f5$cff97290$6fec57b0$@att.net>
 <496c8f1948cb5a2a1c7c852a361c5cd8.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
 <003301cdba14$22331de0$669959a0$@att.net>
 <005a01cdba50$4c2eadd0$e48c0970$@att.net> <50969AAE.3080504@posthuman.com>
Message-ID: <5096AE4F.6010409@aleph.se>

I'm very sceptical about this method as a way of recreating myself, but 
it would certainly be a great thing for enhancing my "memory" and get 
good debug/Turing-test information for future versions of me. Curious 
about how to implement it seamlessly.

Some of my calculations/arguments why we have too many internal degrees 
of freedom to be captured by capturing just external information:
http://www.aleph.se/andart/archives/2012/04/how_many_persons_can_there_be_brain_reconstruction_and_big_numbers.html

-- 
Anders Sandberg,
Future of Humanity Institute
Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University



From brent.allsop at canonizer.com  Sun Nov  4 18:05:06 2012
From: brent.allsop at canonizer.com (Brent Allsop)
Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2012 11:05:06 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Life @ Playstation
In-Reply-To: <001e01cdbaaa$849eaad0$8ddc0070$@att.net>
References: <CAPoR7a7TfytDPq0BJsuV3vuh0AMFhzDP5tDDw5fJsG3woRd6QQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1211040351090.1564@tau.ceti.pl>
 <CAPoR7a72WohEYQx2vErC=Cn0yVTSM6Vbs2+==cNxurPHdrePqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <001601cdba88$b0e81210$12b83630$@att.net>
 <CAPoR7a4hpk+S47RL=Xj31b9S1YUqfK=H+kGqUO6S-Tr+RH_-Yw@mail.gmail.com>
 <50967451.2090403@canonizer.com> <001e01cdbaaa$849eaad0$8ddc0070$@att.net>
Message-ID: <5096AE52.3040208@canonizer.com>


Hi Spike,

Working on projects for nursing home geezers!?  Tell me more about this 
project, sounds very fascinating!
I'm also thinking along these lines with Canonizer.com.  When you think 
about moral wisdom, and how best to live one's life, who knows better 
than old geezers?  If we could get all of these retired folks to spend 
time 'canonizing' things like the best moral behavior, and so on, 
amplifying everyone's moral wisdom, the old retired people could help us 
have a concise and quantitative moral reference far better than what we 
now have with Wikipedia, (to say nothing of the primitive biblical 
morality - so many of us are stuck in the mud with now) I think.  It's 
such a waste that we aren't better at learning from all these wise and 
experienced people, in assisted living homes and so on, and us 
completely ignoring and loosing all they've learned when they die.

Imagine being able to select your own experts (via selecting your 
preferred canonizing algorithm), and knowing, concisely and 
quantitatively, what kind of moral information these very experienced 
chosen people all understand.  Dang, I so wish I had some way to learn 
and benefit, concisely and quantitatively, from all their experiences.

Brent Allsop





On 11/4/2012 9:36 AM, spike wrote:
>
> *On Behalf Of *Brent Allsop
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Life @ Playstation
>
>
> >...Hi Stefano,
>
> >...Where are you getting all this from?  Especially specifics like "since 
> 1870"?
>
> >...All I have is anecdotal evidences, but here's a few things I see that 
> seem to say otherwise?
>
>   * ...
>   * Mormon Transhumanism is certainly growing! ...
>
> (!)
>
>   * The average life span continues to go through the roof...
>   * I, as a type 1 juvenile diabetic,  last year...So I just in time
>     dodged that bullet...
>   * My son was diagnosed ... didn't exist till last year...
>   * Everyone thinks the costs of medical care are going up ...
>
> Excellent points Brent.  Well said.
>
>   * We're continuing the working on the "Consciousness Survey Project"
>     at Canonizer.com - now with people like Dennett, Chalmers,
>     Hameroff, Lehar, and so many other contributing world class
>     leaders. ...
>
> I admire you for staying on this over the years, even if at times you 
> must have felt like the lone voice crying out in the wilderness.  It 
> encourages me to keep on with my favorite idea for which I have a hard 
> time generating funding or mass enthusiasm, the notion of rigging up 
> virtual realities for old geezers.  By this I mean of course older 
> than I am geezers, the kind that live in nursing homes and such.
>
> Brent Allsop
>
> Brent you are gift pal.  Best wishes with those medical sitches for 
> you and your son man.
>

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From rtomek at ceti.pl  Sun Nov  4 18:05:57 2012
From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola)
Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2012 19:05:57 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [ExI] Life @ Playstation
In-Reply-To: <50967742.4030301@canonizer.com>
References: <CAPoR7a7TfytDPq0BJsuV3vuh0AMFhzDP5tDDw5fJsG3woRd6QQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1211040351090.1564@tau.ceti.pl>
 <50967742.4030301@canonizer.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1211041814440.14058@tau.ceti.pl>

On Sun, 4 Nov 2012, Brent Allsop wrote:

> 
> I'm not experienced with PS-3s,

Neither I am. All I "know" about them is from reading.

> but I was thinking of getting one some day,

Yup, myself, I was enamored with idea to build my own little skynet, uh uh
I mean chess program on top of cluster of those.

Not anymore.

> mostly just to drive my TV.  So I'd definitely love to have the system 
> running things like folding at home, since I wouldn't be using it for games 
> and such.

Yes. Not much time for gaming and such.

> Doesn't the PS-3 run on Linux, i.e. you could still install and run anything
> you want?

AFAIK [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PlayStation_3#Homebrew ] it does not. 
There was an option to run Linux, they say now it is no longer.

> Or is everything under Sony's control and locked down these days?
> If so, how hard is it to jail break the system?

Seems like Sony doesn't like the idea. They have a habit of fixing it with 
new updates. I can kind of support this move, because it also seems 
"folks" use jailbroken units to steal games:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PlayStation_3#Custom_firmware_.28CFW.29

However, as you can notice, a jailbreak is temporary solution. And if I 
need to break, it also tells me about overall attitude towards users 
wanting to customise their purchase. I am not going to protest it, but I 
am not going to waste money on it either.

> If you can't even run things like folding at home, that significantly
> decreases my motivation to get one.

Yes. Depending on your needs, you may instead buy yourself a decent 
desktop in nice looking box. Add to it new gfx card, AFAIK nVidia seems to 
be better for computing (less errors - and yeah I know ATI claims to be 
faster but this depends a lot on what kind of stuff one runs on them). Or 
use old one, if it can be used. Voila! You have a PS replacement! 
Especially if you don't do games. I understand there are tons of decent 
used hardware on ebay. Myself, I would just build something out of such 
cheap parts (cheap does not mean failing, if one choses the right cheap). 
Or mix some old and some new.

Or make an upgrade to your existing computer. Etc, etc.

Overally, I nowadays prefer to buy hardware for exactly what I want to do 
with it. No more buying some product, jailbreaking and installing Linux on 
it. Too much hassle. Nobody cares other than relatively small groups of 
enthusiasts (alternatively, they might be just out of luck customers who 
bought with hope to customize and got trapped). It is better to spend 
similar money for things that simply do the job. I don't game much anymore 
and when I do those are really old games like "Steel Panthers" (I guess 
DOS version has about 10 years or more). If so, why would I buy a gaming 
console? And pay for things related to games (misc hardware accelerators) 
which most probably cannot be used under Linux, even if one manages to 
have it installed.

Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.      **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home    **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...      **
**                                                                 **
** Tomasz Rola          mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com             **


From jrd1415 at gmail.com  Sun Nov  4 17:09:43 2012
From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis)
Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2012 10:09:43 -0700
Subject: [ExI] pets, mirrors and cryonics
In-Reply-To: <003d01cdb9f5$cff97290$6fec57b0$@att.net>
References: <003d01cdb9f5$cff97290$6fec57b0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAHUTwkN+rrCePjepC=dPzduh-tYjGW9Qf_j5d40rEa_fo3u4Fw@mail.gmail.com>

Yesterday I encountered this article:

In-sync brain waves hold memory of objects just seen

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2012-11/niom-ibw110212.php

It jives nicely with my working hypothesis for the essential
nature/source/mechanism of consciousness: that it is the dynamically
interactive superposition of all currently active synchronies(?). A
"chorus of synchronies" as it were.

By extension, within this exceedingly provisional model the AD
deficits would be the consequence of blocked/failed sychronies.

Regarding the possibility of "recovering" memories apparently lost, as
demonstrated by the chronic and increasing cognitive deficits, I would
direct your attention to the phenomenon of intermittent lucidity,
which suggests to me that perhaps, in addition to morphological
"damage", a variable biochemical environment drops "below" some
minimum threshold for robust cognitive function.

To such semi-random speculations, I can now add another "data point.
Spike's AD patient remembered with clarity (my read) the person's
face, name, and the contextual circumstances of a brief (but
apparently memorable) encounter twenty years back.  What is the
difference between this arcane, virtually-never-accessed, yet robust
memory, and the high-traffic fading-fast memories of day to day?
First guess: high-traffic vs low-traffic.  Could the higher level of
metabolic activity in AD-challenged neurons correlate with a more
rapid accumulation of metabolic by-products -- amyloid beta and tau
tangles -- and thus their more rapid decline? .

Just some thoughts.

As always Spike, my brother, best wishes.

Jeff


From clementlawyer at gmail.com  Sun Nov  4 18:03:55 2012
From: clementlawyer at gmail.com (James Clement)
Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2012 13:03:55 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Life @ Playstation
In-Reply-To: <CAPoR7a4hpk+S47RL=Xj31b9S1YUqfK=H+kGqUO6S-Tr+RH_-Yw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPoR7a7TfytDPq0BJsuV3vuh0AMFhzDP5tDDw5fJsG3woRd6QQ@mail.gmail.com>
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On Nov 4, 2012 8:18 AM, "Stefano Vaj" <stefano.vaj at gmail.com> wrote:

"... if they are real geniuses they are likely too be engaged in the study
of the newest and best Ponzi scheme, and if they really really have to be
into science they probably specialise in strategies for getting short-term
visibility and grants."

Of course there are true geniuses around. I know at least five
transhumanists with IQs significantly higher than Einstein's (identities
protected; they can identify themselves, if they want to). In the US,
geniuses are identified very early on in school, and primed to work for the
establishment (military Intel., NSA, high-tech defense contractors, etc.).
Most geniuses of this caliber are not turned on by money or power, but
generally want to facilitate making their vision of the future happen. Most
of the ones I've met are humanitarian types.

A large part of the purpose of h+ magazine was to inspire young geniuses to
channel their talents into the NBIC fields, for the benefit of Mankind via
transhumanist ideals. We need to continue to identify these types and let
them know they're not alone, and that we support their efforts to advance
Mankind through various enhancement technologies.

James
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From atymes at gmail.com  Sun Nov  4 18:35:56 2012
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2012 10:35:56 -0800
Subject: [ExI]  Gifted children
Message-ID: <CALAdGNSFAN=0WFsAW23nU908M_x=7AA23DJLjxEhMPnCcGagJw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Nov 4, 2012 at 10:03 AM, James Clement <clementlawyer at gmail.com> wrote:
> In the US,
> geniuses are identified very early on in school, and primed to work for the
> establishment (military Intel., NSA, high-tech defense contractors, etc.).

This is laughably wrong.

Look up "gifted children".  Identification often lags, and smart
children tend to suffer.  Very, very few get primed as you say,
usually only if their parents work for military intel/NSA/defense
contractors.

Mensa, and in particular the Mensa Educational Research
Foundation, has a *lot* of material on this (most of it from
self-interest: they're trying to figure out how to raise their own
high-IQ kids) if you are interested.

> Most geniuses of this caliber are not turned on by money or power, but
> generally want to facilitate making their vision of the future happen. Most
> of the ones I've met are humanitarian types.

This, on the other hand, is true.  Which is one of the reasons
why they tend not to wind up as presidents, CEOs, or otherrwise
in positions of power.


From brent.allsop at canonizer.com  Sun Nov  4 18:37:16 2012
From: brent.allsop at canonizer.com (Brent Allsop)
Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2012 11:37:16 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Isn't it a continuum? (Was Re: Can you avoid information
 theoretic death via 1080p?)
In-Reply-To: <5096AE4F.6010409@aleph.se>
References: <003d01cdb9f5$cff97290$6fec57b0$@att.net>
 <496c8f1948cb5a2a1c7c852a361c5cd8.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
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Message-ID: <5096B5DC.9080803@canonizer.com>



Hi Anders,

Very interesting paper!  Thanks!

Sure, it'd be great to get a perfectly sufficient replica of a person's 
identity via ever less complete sets of information.  But it seems we 
also need to consider some kind of continuum towards this ultimate 
perfection.  How close could we get?

As I've described in my 1229 years after Titanic story 
(http://home.comcast.net/~brent.allsop/1229.htm ) once we get any kind 
of self sufficient / self progressing AI systems, we'll start converting 
any historical information we have of individuals and genealogy into 
instances of such for each of our ancestors.  The goal of each AI 
instance will be to preserve, recover, manage estate investments for 
self funding, become, and behave (including voting...) like their 
estate's name sake, as much as possible. With the ultimate goal of not 
only preservation of, but also, investing and growth of estate assets, 
and using such towards perfect restoration / resurrection of everything 
the person was, to the degree possible.

So, you say you are skeptical that we will ever be able to fully restore 
people, just from basic historical information, which I may have to 
accept.  But, my question is, how close could we with such AI systems 
get, after say 1000 years?  And if there are any specific barriers, 
other than simply large numbers, are there any, really?  How close do 
you think we could get, if not perfection? Certainly our/their progress 
would never stop, as we continue to push towards an ever more perfect 
history of the entire earth?


How many people agree with me that we're about to have such independent 
AI systems, to take over the ownership and growth of genealogical 
history and 'estates' of our dead relatives?  If such were something 
like $5000 (including maybe $1000 investment assets to seed self 
sufficient investment funding for them) to get started for your closest 
dead relative, how many of you would rally your surviving family to 
invest in such for them?

Brent Allsop



On 11/4/2012 11:05 AM, Anders Sandberg wrote:
> I'm very sceptical about this method as a way of recreating myself, 
> but it would certainly be a great thing for enhancing my "memory" and 
> get good debug/Turing-test information for future versions of me. 
> Curious about how to implement it seamlessly.
>
> Some of my calculations/arguments why we have too many internal 
> degrees of freedom to be captured by capturing just external information:
> http://www.aleph.se/andart/archives/2012/04/how_many_persons_can_there_be_brain_reconstruction_and_big_numbers.html 
>
>



From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Sun Nov  4 20:05:42 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2012 21:05:42 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Life @ Playstation
In-Reply-To: <CA+LBAbSw5xDXJX9q+vJr=VRF7DNSin9ynZf=hhF1dCQuABPzjg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPoR7a7TfytDPq0BJsuV3vuh0AMFhzDP5tDDw5fJsG3woRd6QQ@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAPoR7a7Q6QiB8eQftwRWB_p3Q4Pbo=yNbzA=wGkPbuXvnfBOyw@mail.gmail.com>

On 4 November 2012 19:03, James Clement <clementlawyer at gmail.com> wrote:

> Most geniuses of this caliber are not turned on by money or power, but
> generally want to facilitate making their vision of the future happen. Most
> of the ones I've met are humanitarian types.
>

In principle, this is a simple Paretian (or Darwinian?) issue. In a society
where the best thief is king, those who are best mostly choose to be
thieves. Why shouldn't they?

Of course, people are not just motivated by money. But if power, status,
fame, self esteem, access to scarce resources, sex appeal, influence, peer
recognition, etc., are in a given culture just a reflection of your wealth,
I suspect that your market value becomes a good approximation of what the
culture concerned thinks that you are worth.

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From brian at posthuman.com  Sun Nov  4 22:12:06 2012
From: brian at posthuman.com (Brian Atkins)
Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2012 16:12:06 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Can you avoid information theoretic death via 1080p? Re:
 pets, mirrors and cryonics
In-Reply-To: <5096AE4F.6010409@aleph.se>
References: <003d01cdb9f5$cff97290$6fec57b0$@att.net>
 <496c8f1948cb5a2a1c7c852a361c5cd8.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
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 <005a01cdba50$4c2eadd0$e48c0970$@att.net> <50969AAE.3080504@posthuman.com>
 <5096AE4F.6010409@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <5096E836.5010007@posthuman.com>

Interesting blog post and extrobritannia thread, I looked it up - for anyone 
interested the relevant posts are in April 2012: 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/extrobritannia/messages/14700

I was struck by your "Number of brains" section that it seems a little too 
simple? Now I'm not a neuroscientist, yet at a high level aren't most human 
brains fairly similar in many respects? Or in other words I doubt that all 10^11 
neurons I have are all contributing much to making me unique. Unique in terms of 
Merkle's information-theoretic death definition:

"A person is dead according to the information-theoretic criterion if their 
memories, personality, hopes, dreams, etc. have been destroyed in the 
information-theoretic sense..."

I'd guess you could upgrade significant chunks of a reconstruction of my mind 
with updated/superior parts, such as for example parts of the visual cortex, yet 
if the reconstruction had mostly the same "memories, personality, hopes, dreams, 
etc." as myself I would feel pretty pleased with that outcome. In other words I 
think there are probably big chunks of my brain that aren't really the very key 
bits that I feel I absolutely would need to define myself. Again I'm not a 
neuroscientist, so perhaps this is a naive viewpoint.

So for me, information-theoretic death is more of a fuzzy sliding scale. Ranging 
from absolutely nothing being able to be reconstructed, and up to some sort of 
near-perfect nanotech upload process that maps every neuron and connection. 
Personally I could "live with" something well down this scale, and I'd prefer it 
if the alternative option was nothing at all. But your particular model seems to 
be situated much closer to the perfect upload end of the scale, minus a 10% 
disease/damage allowance. Is it possible to estimate the size of just the "key 
bits"? How many neurons out of the 10^11 really matter a lot in making me me, 
how many are borderline relevant, and how many could probably be replaced with 
ones from someone else and I wouldn't notice?

Regarding the "Human information output" section, it seems also a bit too 
simple. Does this analysis take into account extra bits of output we can get by 
inferring what is going on in the subject's mind based on captured behavior? The 
authors of the spoken dialog entropy paper for example say their analysis does 
not take this into account. Can a future reconstruction system analyze a brief 
microexpression on your face and based on everything else it knows use this to 
get more bits of output? If so, how do we determine what the real output number 
is - it seems to be based perhaps in part on the skills of the future analysis 
program and perhaps the total size of the available dataset, just as the dialog 
entropy paper results are based on the skills and analysis technique of the 
researchers?

For example a naive analysis of a particular facial muscle move in a video might 
just count it as one or two bits of information - "face muscle z moved for x 
milliseconds". Yet a more advanced analysis, based on complete knowledge of 
typical human mind neural network behavior, muscle behavior, and both past and 
future (assuming you analyze further video later and then back-propagate your 
results) analyses, etc. might allow you to get much more data out of that 
particular muscle move. One muscle move in a certain way at a certain time in a 
certain conversation, might lead an advanced analysis program to throw out 
entire classes of possible neural structures. Curious what you think.

No matter what, I agree, this data would have its uses in multiple other ways. I 
hope I can construct a system that will capture the most relevant bits possible, 
yet also in the least annoying way. Still working on figuring out if we've 
reached a high enough quality bits per annoyance per dollar ratio with today's tech.


From clementlawyer at gmail.com  Sun Nov  4 21:28:40 2012
From: clementlawyer at gmail.com (James Clement)
Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2012 16:28:40 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Life @ Playstation
In-Reply-To: <CAPoR7a7Q6QiB8eQftwRWB_p3Q4Pbo=yNbzA=wGkPbuXvnfBOyw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPoR7a7TfytDPq0BJsuV3vuh0AMFhzDP5tDDw5fJsG3woRd6QQ@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CA+LBAbTJES=AnaFT0XedPVdnbWi5qZsg-zoK-kCAnryr5ncTbQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Nov 4, 2012 at 3:05 PM, Stefano Vaj <stefano.vaj at gmail.com> wrote:


> In principle, this is a simple Paretian (or Darwinian?) issue. In a
> society where the best thief is king, those who are best mostly choose to
> be thieves. Why shouldn't they?
>
> Of course, people are not just motivated by money. But if power, status,
> fame, self esteem, access to scarce resources, sex appeal, influence, peer
> recognition, etc., are in a given culture just a reflection of your wealth,
> I suspect that your market value becomes a good approximation of what the
> culture concerned thinks that you are worth.


Social Darwinism is an excuse to be sociopathic, IMHO (
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Darwinism). None of the super-geniuses
I know are truly motivated to "compete" in society. Most are too caught up
in their own thoughts (some might say in an autistic manner) to care about
what society thinks of them. That's not so say they're social misfits (any
more than normal people), just that they seem uninterested in proving
anything to anyone. The people who have been motivated towards power whom
I've known have all been of lesser talent and abilities, with something to
prove, vis-a-vis other people.

James
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From pharos at gmail.com  Sun Nov  4 22:45:17 2012
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2012 22:45:17 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Life @ Playstation
In-Reply-To: <CA+LBAbTJES=AnaFT0XedPVdnbWi5qZsg-zoK-kCAnryr5ncTbQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPoR7a7TfytDPq0BJsuV3vuh0AMFhzDP5tDDw5fJsG3woRd6QQ@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CA+LBAbSw5xDXJX9q+vJr=VRF7DNSin9ynZf=hhF1dCQuABPzjg@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAL_armhT8JjrzYBxhqjZvMZuVOgGuVcF_ry9YjZQG-FjYwadmg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Nov 4, 2012 at 9:28 PM, James Clement wrote:
> Social Darwinism is an excuse to be sociopathic, IMHO
> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Darwinism). None of the super-geniuses
> I know are truly motivated to "compete" in society. Most are too caught up
> in their own thoughts (some might say in an autistic manner) to care about
> what society thinks of them. That's not so say they're social misfits (any
> more than normal people), just that they seem uninterested in proving
> anything to anyone. The people who have been motivated towards power whom
> I've known have all been of lesser talent and abilities, with something to
> prove, vis-a-vis other people.
>
>

When I was in Mensa, we used to joke about the really high IQs being
the ones who had men in white coats to take them home from meetings.
The idea of the mad genius living in his own world, detached from
reality is very common. I saw many clever people in Mensa whose life
was a complete shambles due to their eccentric behaviour. From the
point of view of having a successful career I think that being *too*
clever can often be a disadvantage.


BillK


From clementlawyer at gmail.com  Mon Nov  5 00:45:12 2012
From: clementlawyer at gmail.com (James Clement)
Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2012 19:45:12 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Gifted children
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNSFAN=0WFsAW23nU908M_x=7AA23DJLjxEhMPnCcGagJw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALAdGNSFAN=0WFsAW23nU908M_x=7AA23DJLjxEhMPnCcGagJw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+LBAbR46CnQNVCpCGCRrTtV-1tpjKJFacscMtwx2Y05VEuCQA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Nov 4, 2012 at 1:35 PM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sun, Nov 4, 2012 at 10:03 AM, James Clement <clementlawyer at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > In the US,
> > geniuses are identified very early on in school, and primed to work for
> the
> > establishment (military Intel., NSA, high-tech defense contractors,
> etc.).
>
> This is laughably wrong.
>

Since I know several families of gifted children whose schools, in
different parts of the country, begin having "gov't" representatives give
presentations, sponsor field trips, contests, summer camps, etc., I'm going
to disagree with you on this.

BTW, I've been a MENSA member most of my adult life, so I'm aware of their
programs also.

Thanks,

James
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From spike66 at att.net  Mon Nov  5 00:33:24 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2012 16:33:24 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Life @ Playstation
In-Reply-To: <5096AE52.3040208@canonizer.com>
References: <CAPoR7a7TfytDPq0BJsuV3vuh0AMFhzDP5tDDw5fJsG3woRd6QQ@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <00fa01cdbaed$2bdcf990$8396ecb0$@att.net>

Hi Brent,

 

What I have had rattling around in my brain for years, decades actually
since long before we had anything like the computing horsepower we have
today, is an idea for creating devices which stimulate the minds of nursing
home patients.  One of the causes of their degradation is that nursing homes
are so boring.  All their life's challenges are behind them, they don't
really want to just spend hours talking to all their new acquaintances.  So
most of them just sit in silent misery.

 

Here is my request for those who have the intestinal fortitude to accept it:
go to any local nursing home, especially if they have a wing dedicated to
memory care patients in a lockdown.  Ask to see it.  They will tour you and
in most cases won't even ask why you are there.  Look at it for yourself.
Do it.  Surely some of the same ideas will occur to you as I have had: we
could rig up some kind of tech related to those games the kids have which
can take input from you from a head motion or even an eye motion.  We could
rig it up somehow with Second Life or one of the others, make it into a fun
game that doesn't require the patients study anything.  All they need to do
is look this way or that.  We could use those Wii controllers, the various
gaming technologies and so on, make it one HELL of a lot more fun to be old
and locked in, for DO LET ME ASSURE YOU my young friends, right not it sure
looks like NO FUN to me, and furthermore, if we had all this cool stuff, we
could probably keep the patients in their own home longer, and the savings
could be astonishing.

 

It kills me that I we have all this cool technology and we aren't using it,
or aren't using it effectively, and we should be, at least for rich people,
because rich people deserve the very best that money can buy.  They help us
all because they pay the up-front costs of developing all this stuff,
provide a market, then the rest of us can buy it more cheaply WHEN WE NEED
IT and we will.  Pardon please my occasional use of all caps, but friends I
mean it.  We can do better than this, and we should be.  Here we have all
these rocket scientists with nothing to do since the cold war rather
unexpectedly came to an end, all this lofty engineering skill with no good
outlet, yet here we sit with a perfectly clear desperate need, with a
ready-made market, our OWN PARENTS and grandparents to immediately benefit,
and all this to our benefit too, within a few decades.  

 

What if we fail?  Imagine that I can't figure out ways to get the coder
jockeys to work on this, and 30 yrs from now that is ME in one of those
evolution-forsaken places with nothing to do and what is left of a really
fun brain just rots away, and if so I would hafta hate myself for not
getting off my ass back in '12 when I was 52 and capable of at least
imagining the kinds of things we should be building.  Sheesh, it isn't even
all that difficult.  Do we have here, or anyone here friends with people who
know how to hack into that game system, what's it called?  The one that
watches your motions and uses that as an input.  Game hipsters please?  Is
that a Sony PlayStation 4?  Could anyone here clue me how to rig that PS4
game console to read head motions and set that to guide Second Life, or
suggest something else that can use simple right left commands, but not Duke
Nukem or Lara Croft.  It hasta work for gentle church ladies and such.  If
you accept my challenge, you will see most of the patients are women, and
they have zero interest in first-person shooters, but they might go for a
Waltons-ized version of Second Life.  Is there anything we can do with
speech recognition?  Is there already somewhere a Waltons-ized adventure
game?

 

Toss me a bone here friends.  What do we do next?

 

spike

 

From: Brent Allsop [mailto:brent.allsop at gmail.com] On Behalf Of Brent Allsop
Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2012 10:05 AM
To: spike
Cc: 'ExI chat list'
Subject: Re: [ExI] Life @ Playstation

 


Hi Spike,

Working on projects for nursing home geezers!?  Tell me more about this
project, sounds very fascinating!
I'm also thinking along these lines with Canonizer.com.  When you think
about moral wisdom, and how best to live one's life, who knows better than
old geezers?  If we could get all of these retired folks to spend time
'canonizing' things like the best moral behavior, and so on, amplifying
everyone's moral wisdom, the old retired people could help us have a concise
and quantitative moral reference far better than what we now have with
Wikipedia, (to say nothing of the primitive biblical morality - so many of
us are stuck in the mud with now) I think.  It's such a waste that we aren't
better at learning from all these wise and experienced people, in assisted
living homes and so on, and us completely ignoring and loosing all they've
learned when they die.

Imagine being able to select your own experts (via selecting your preferred
canonizing algorithm), and knowing, concisely and quantitatively, what kind
of moral information these very experienced chosen people all understand.
Dang, I so wish I had some way to learn and benefit, concisely and
quantitatively, from all their experiences.

Brent Allsop





On 11/4/2012 9:36 AM, spike wrote:

 

 

On Behalf Of Brent Allsop
Subject: Re: [ExI] Life @ Playstation

 


>.Hi Stefano,

>.Where are you getting all this from?  Especially specifics like "since
1870"?

>.All I have is anecdotal evidences, but here's a few things I see that seem
to say otherwise?

*	.
*	Mormon Transhumanism is certainly growing! ...

(!)

*	The average life span continues to go through the roof.
*	I, as a type 1 juvenile diabetic,  last year.So I just in time
dodged that bullet.
*	My son was diagnosed . didn't exist till last year.
*	Everyone thinks the costs of medical care are going up .

Excellent points Brent.  Well said.

*	We're continuing the working on the "Consciousness Survey Project"
at Canonizer.com - now with people like Dennett, Chalmers, Hameroff, Lehar,
and so many other contributing world class leaders.  .

 

I admire you for staying on this over the years, even if at times you must
have felt like the lone voice crying out in the wilderness.  It encourages
me to keep on with my favorite idea for which I have a hard time generating
funding or mass enthusiasm, the notion of rigging up virtual realities for
old geezers.  By this I mean of course older than I am geezers, the kind
that live in nursing homes and such.

 

Brent Allsop

Brent you are gift pal.  Best wishes with those medical sitches for you and
your son man.

 

 

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From atymes at gmail.com  Mon Nov  5 01:06:45 2012
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2012 17:06:45 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Gifted children
In-Reply-To: <CA+LBAbR46CnQNVCpCGCRrTtV-1tpjKJFacscMtwx2Y05VEuCQA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALAdGNSFAN=0WFsAW23nU908M_x=7AA23DJLjxEhMPnCcGagJw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+LBAbR46CnQNVCpCGCRrTtV-1tpjKJFacscMtwx2Y05VEuCQA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNQS7UP-a+Grtr521jdBJ_VXUDcGrUeBDDC44FFe6yS5dg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Nov 4, 2012 at 4:45 PM, James Clement <clementlawyer at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, Nov 4, 2012 at 1:35 PM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Sun, Nov 4, 2012 at 10:03 AM, James Clement <clementlawyer at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > In the US,
>> > geniuses are identified very early on in school, and primed to work for
>> > the
>> > establishment (military Intel., NSA, high-tech defense contractors,
>> > etc.).
>>
>> This is laughably wrong.
>
> Since I know several families of gifted children whose schools, in different
> parts of the country, begin having "gov't" representatives give
> presentations, sponsor field trips, contests, summer camps, etc., I'm going
> to disagree with you on this.

Those things are scattershot, meant for everyone.  No
identification or selection of targets necessary.  Only the
contests come close to identification - and, more often
than not, the identification is never followed up on.  The
government lets candidates come to them, not vice versa.

Do you have specific examples to the contrary?  I am not
aware of any, despite living in the region of the US where
they would logically be most focused.

> BTW, I've been a MENSA member most of my adult life, so I'm aware of their
> programs also.

Second generation Mensan here.  Member since second
grade.  So this is also personal experience for me.


From spike66 at att.net  Mon Nov  5 01:30:32 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2012 17:30:32 -0800
Subject: [ExI] pets, mirrors and cryonics
In-Reply-To: <CAHUTwkN+rrCePjepC=dPzduh-tYjGW9Qf_j5d40rEa_fo3u4Fw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <003d01cdb9f5$cff97290$6fec57b0$@att.net>
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Message-ID: <011801cdbaf5$28bcd430$7a367c90$@att.net>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Jeff Davis
...

>...To such semi-random speculations, I can now add another "data point.
Spike's AD patient remembered with clarity (my read) the person's face,
name, and the contextual circumstances of a brief (but apparently memorable)
encounter twenty years back.  What is the difference between this arcane,
virtually-never-accessed, yet robust memory, and the high-traffic
fading-fast memories of day to day?

Ja, as far as I can tell, there are no other memories of that vacation by
the patient from that vacation, but I have one that is crystal clear.  We
went to a museum at the Petrified Forest National Park.  In that museum they
had on display the skeleton of a hadrosaur, a particularly well-preserved
example.  Unlike most dinosaur skeletons, this one was displayed so that
proles could get right up almost close enough to touch.  I was so astonished
by this whole museum.  The family indulged me while they ate lunch and I
looked carefully at everything.  I spent about half an hour examining that
skeleton.  One of the things I noticed is that the fossil skeleton had
insertion scars where the tendon attaches to the bone.  It looks just like
insertions in modern beasts.  For some reason that totally amazed me.

>...First guess: high-traffic vs low-traffic.  Could the higher level of
metabolic activity in AD-challenged neurons correlate with a more rapid
accumulation of metabolic by-products -- amyloid beta and tau tangles -- and
thus their more rapid decline? ...

Could be that, but my notion is that if we just stimulated those idle minds,
they might still be moderately functional.  


>...As always Spike, my brother, best wishes.  Jeff
_______________________________________________

Thanks Jeff.  Now since you are a known very creative thinker, let's see
those brains spill some ideas on how to write low-input software for
seniors, some of whom have never used a computer and don't want to start,
but would go for a cool useful sim that would allow them some semblance of
an existence, even they cannot themselves go outdoors.

spike 



From brent.allsop at canonizer.com  Mon Nov  5 01:46:17 2012
From: brent.allsop at canonizer.com (Brent Allsop)
Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2012 18:46:17 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Life @ Playstation
In-Reply-To: <00fa01cdbaed$2bdcf990$8396ecb0$@att.net>
References: <CAPoR7a7TfytDPq0BJsuV3vuh0AMFhzDP5tDDw5fJsG3woRd6QQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1211040351090.1564@tau.ceti.pl>
 <CAPoR7a72WohEYQx2vErC=Cn0yVTSM6Vbs2+==cNxurPHdrePqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <001601cdba88$b0e81210$12b83630$@att.net>
 <CAPoR7a4hpk+S47RL=Xj31b9S1YUqfK=H+kGqUO6S-Tr+RH_-Yw@mail.gmail.com>
 <50967451.2090403@canonizer.com> <001e01cdbaaa$849eaad0$8ddc0070$@att.net>
 <5096AE52.3040208@canonizer.com> <00fa01cdbaed$2bdcf990$8396ecb0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <50971A69.6000802@canonizer.com>



Hi Spike,

Yea, I've done exactly that - visited some nursing homes, including ones 
for loss of mind/memory.  It's almost as painful for me, even though I 
know they aren't in as much pain, as going to a  major hospital's burn 
unit.  And, just as you say, so much more could be done for them with 
technology.  I've also recently started volunteering with Meals on 
Wheels - and I'm getting to know some of the people we deliver to - 
regularly, so am looking forward to asking them if they are interested 
in anything like this.

As with most things, it all comes down to time.  Trying to provide an 
income for my family, and working on the startup Canonizer.com, doesn't 
seem to leave much time for such.

I'm sure if we could find a group of people interested in helping older 
people in one location or one particular nursing home, which would be 
able to help with some of the busy / training / support work, with our 
direction, that could go a long way.  And it'd help if we could find a 
nursing home which already had at leas some computers available for 
residents to use.

There are lots of people in the Mormon church that volunteer at old 
folks homes.  I'm sure if we could find enough of these kind of people, 
at least in a single prototype location, we could get something started.

Maybe we should get a kickstarter.com project going.  I bet lots of 
people would be willing to pay lots of funds to get a few seed / test 
old folks homes started, to see if we could make something like this 
work?  If lots of people were willing to help a bit, that would sure 
make things easier / doable.

Brent Allsop




On 11/4/2012 5:33 PM, spike wrote:
>
> Hi Brent,
>
> What I have had rattling around in my brain for years, decades 
> actually since long before we had anything like the computing 
> horsepower we have today, is an idea for creating devices which 
> stimulate the minds of nursing home patients. One of the causes of 
> their degradation is that nursing homes are so boring.  All their 
> life's challenges are behind them, they don't really want to just 
> spend hours talking to all their new acquaintances.  So most of them 
> just sit in silent misery.
>
> Here is my request for those who have the intestinal fortitude to 
> accept it: go to any local nursing home, especially if they have a 
> wing dedicated to memory care patients in a lockdown.  Ask to see it.  
> They will tour you and in most cases won't even ask why you are 
> there.  Look at it for yourself.  Do it.  Surely some of the same 
> ideas will occur to you as I have had: we could rig up some kind of 
> tech related to those games the kids have which can take input from 
> you from a head motion or even an eye motion.  We could rig it up 
> somehow with Second Life or one of the others, make it into a fun game 
> that doesn't require the patients study anything.  All they need to do 
> is look this way or that.  We could use those Wii controllers, the 
> various gaming technologies and so on, make it one HELL of a lot more 
> fun to be old and locked in, for DO LET ME ASSURE YOU my young 
> friends, right not it sure looks like NO FUN to me, and furthermore, 
> if we had all this cool stuff, we could probably keep the patients in 
> their own home longer, and the savings could be astonishing.
>
> It kills me that I we have all this cool technology and we aren't 
> using it, or aren't using it effectively, and we should be, at least 
> for rich people, because rich people deserve the very best that money 
> can buy.  They help us all because they pay the up-front costs of 
> developing all this stuff, provide a market, then the rest of us can 
> buy it more cheaply WHEN WE NEED IT and we will.  Pardon please my 
> occasional use of all caps, but friends I mean it.  We can do better 
> than this, and we should be.  Here we have all these rocket scientists 
> with nothing to do since the cold war rather unexpectedly came to an 
> end, all this lofty engineering skill with no good outlet, yet here we 
> sit with a perfectly clear desperate need, with a ready-made market, 
> our OWN PARENTS and grandparents to immediately benefit, and all this 
> to our benefit too, within a few decades.
>
> What if we fail?  Imagine that I can't figure out ways to get the 
> coder jockeys to work on this, and 30 yrs from now that is ME in one 
> of those evolution-forsaken places with nothing to do and what is left 
> of a really fun brain just rots away, and if so I would hafta hate 
> myself for not getting off my ass back in '12 when I was 52 and 
> capable of at least imagining the kinds of things we should be 
> building. Sheesh, it isn't even all that difficult.  Do we have here, 
> or anyone here friends with people who know how to hack into that game 
> system, what's it called?  The one that watches your motions and uses 
> that as an input.  Game hipsters please?  Is that a Sony PlayStation 
> 4?  Could anyone here clue me how to rig that PS4 game console to read 
> head motions and set that to guide Second Life, or suggest something 
> else that can use simple right left commands, but not Duke Nukem or 
> Lara Croft.  It hasta work for gentle church ladies and such.  If you 
> accept my challenge, you will see most of the patients are women, and 
> they have zero interest in first-person shooters, but they might go 
> for a Waltons-ized version of Second Life.  Is there anything we can 
> do with speech recognition?  Is there already somewhere a Waltons-ized 
> adventure game?
>
> Toss me a bone here friends.  What do we do next?
>
> spike
>
> *From:*Brent Allsop [mailto:brent.allsop at gmail.com] *On Behalf Of 
> *Brent Allsop
> *Sent:* Sunday, November 04, 2012 10:05 AM
> *To:* spike
> *Cc:* 'ExI chat list'
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Life @ Playstation
>
>
> Hi Spike,
>
> Working on projects for nursing home geezers!?  Tell me more about 
> this project, sounds very fascinating!
> I'm also thinking along these lines with Canonizer.com. When you think 
> about moral wisdom, and how best to live one's life, who knows better 
> than old geezers?  If we could get all of these retired folks to spend 
> time 'canonizing' things like the best moral behavior, and so on, 
> amplifying everyone's moral wisdom, the old retired people could help 
> us have a concise and quantitative moral reference far better than 
> what we now have with Wikipedia, (to say nothing of the primitive 
> biblical morality - so many of us are stuck in the mud with now) I 
> think.  It's such a waste that we aren't better at learning from all 
> these wise and experienced people, in assisted living homes and so on, 
> and us completely ignoring and loosing all they've learned when they die.
>
> Imagine being able to select your own experts (via selecting your 
> preferred canonizing algorithm), and knowing, concisely and 
> quantitatively, what kind of moral information these very experienced 
> chosen people all understand.  Dang, I so wish I had some way to learn 
> and benefit, concisely and quantitatively, from all their experiences.
>
> Brent Allsop
>
>
>
>
>
> On 11/4/2012 9:36 AM, spike wrote:
>
>     *On Behalf Of *Brent Allsop
>     *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Life @ Playstation
>
>
>     >...Hi Stefano,
>
>     >...Where are you getting all this from?  Especially specifics like
>     "since 1870"?
>
>     >...All I have is anecdotal evidences, but here's a few things I see
>     that seem to say otherwise?
>
>       * ...
>       * Mormon Transhumanism is certainly growing! ...
>
>     (!)
>
>       * The average life span continues to go through the roof...
>       * I, as a type 1 juvenile diabetic,  last year...So I just in
>         time dodged that bullet...
>       * My son was diagnosed ... didn't exist till last year...
>       * Everyone thinks the costs of medical care are going up ...
>
>     Excellent points Brent.  Well said.
>
>       * We're continuing the working on the "Consciousness Survey
>         Project" at Canonizer.com - now with people like Dennett,
>         Chalmers, Hameroff, Lehar, and so many other contributing
>         world class leaders. ...
>
>     I admire you for staying on this over the years, even if at times
>     you must have felt like the lone voice crying out in the
>     wilderness.  It encourages me to keep on with my favorite idea for
>     which I have a hard time generating funding or mass enthusiasm,
>     the notion of rigging up virtual realities for old geezers.  By
>     this I mean of course older than I am geezers, the kind that live
>     in nursing homes and such.
>
>     Brent Allsop
>
>     Brent you are gift pal.  Best wishes with those medical sitches
>     for you and your son man.
>

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From clementlawyer at gmail.com  Mon Nov  5 01:48:44 2012
From: clementlawyer at gmail.com (James Clement)
Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2012 20:48:44 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Gifted children
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNQS7UP-a+Grtr521jdBJ_VXUDcGrUeBDDC44FFe6yS5dg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALAdGNSFAN=0WFsAW23nU908M_x=7AA23DJLjxEhMPnCcGagJw@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CA+LBAbTg9Dg-9WHH84oFQpbk0hjebFUYbX6wujvN36z_m7w8mA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Nov 4, 2012 at 8:06 PM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:


> Those things are scattershot, meant for everyone.  No
> identification or selection of targets necessary.  Only the
> contests come close to identification - and, more often
> than not, the identification is never followed up on.  The
> government lets candidates come to them, not vice versa.
>
> Do you have specific examples to the contrary?  I am not
> aware of any, despite living in the region of the US where
> they would logically be most focused.
>
>
As I have already mentioned, I know of several specific examples on
opposite ends of the Country. A friend of mine had a child in a large
city's gifted program and their kid, along with many classmates, were given
offers every year from grade school until graduation for all-expense paid
summer camps from each of the armed services, NSA, CIA, etc.  One year it
was Navy, another the Air Force, etc. These programs are exclusively for
geniuses. These kids are generally way above MENSA status (see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mega_Society for examples), although I would
assume that some of the smarter MENSA-level kids might make the cut off too.

James
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From atymes at gmail.com  Mon Nov  5 05:21:37 2012
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2012 21:21:37 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Gifted children
In-Reply-To: <CA+LBAbTg9Dg-9WHH84oFQpbk0hjebFUYbX6wujvN36z_m7w8mA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALAdGNSFAN=0WFsAW23nU908M_x=7AA23DJLjxEhMPnCcGagJw@mail.gmail.com>
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On Sun, Nov 4, 2012 at 5:48 PM, James Clement <clementlawyer at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, Nov 4, 2012 at 8:06 PM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Those things are scattershot, meant for everyone.  No
>> identification or selection of targets necessary.  Only the
>> contests come close to identification - and, more often
>> than not, the identification is never followed up on.  The
>> government lets candidates come to them, not vice versa.
>>
>> Do you have specific examples to the contrary?  I am not
>> aware of any, despite living in the region of the US where
>> they would logically be most focused.
>>
>
> As I have already mentioned, I know of several specific examples on opposite
> ends of the Country. A friend of mine had a child in a large city's gifted
> program and their kid, along with many classmates, were given offers every
> year from grade school until graduation for all-expense paid summer camps
> from each of the armed services, NSA, CIA, etc.  One year it was Navy,
> another the Air Force, etc. These programs are exclusively for geniuses.
> These kids are generally way above MENSA status (see
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mega_Society for examples), although I would
> assume that some of the smarter MENSA-level kids might make the cut off too.

>From your description, I suspect it was your friend's
connections, and/or that specific program's connections,
that got the attention.  If such a thing were nationwide,
MENSA would have heard of it.


From clementlawyer at gmail.com  Mon Nov  5 06:18:58 2012
From: clementlawyer at gmail.com (James Clement)
Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2012 01:18:58 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Gifted children
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNRt9Jj9-HNsZ12UCyKPfGb5Qacv7fY4_vHA_=0BZEjczA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALAdGNSFAN=0WFsAW23nU908M_x=7AA23DJLjxEhMPnCcGagJw@mail.gmail.com>
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Of the two families who had this same experience, one was poor the other
fairly wealthy, neither were "connected" in any way to the gov't. For
whatever reason, you appear to want to say this isn't the case, and that
it's an exception. Whatever - I'm tired of discussing it with you and
feeding the troll.

James



On Mon, Nov 5, 2012 at 12:21 AM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sun, Nov 4, 2012 at 5:48 PM, James Clement <clementlawyer at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > On Sun, Nov 4, 2012 at 8:06 PM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Those things are scattershot, meant for everyone.  No
> >> identification or selection of targets necessary.  Only the
> >> contests come close to identification - and, more often
> >> than not, the identification is never followed up on.  The
> >> government lets candidates come to them, not vice versa.
> >>
> >> Do you have specific examples to the contrary?  I am not
> >> aware of any, despite living in the region of the US where
> >> they would logically be most focused.
> >>
> >
> > As I have already mentioned, I know of several specific examples on
> opposite
> > ends of the Country. A friend of mine had a child in a large city's
> gifted
> > program and their kid, along with many classmates, were given offers
> every
> > year from grade school until graduation for all-expense paid summer camps
> > from each of the armed services, NSA, CIA, etc.  One year it was Navy,
> > another the Air Force, etc. These programs are exclusively for geniuses.
> > These kids are generally way above MENSA status (see
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mega_Society for examples), although I
> would
> > assume that some of the smarter MENSA-level kids might make the cut off
> too.
>
> From your description, I suspect it was your friend's
> connections, and/or that specific program's connections,
> that got the attention.  If such a thing were nationwide,
> MENSA would have heard of it.
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From anders at aleph.se  Mon Nov  5 10:57:25 2012
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2012 10:57:25 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Life @ Playstation
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armhT8JjrzYBxhqjZvMZuVOgGuVcF_ry9YjZQG-FjYwadmg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPoR7a7TfytDPq0BJsuV3vuh0AMFhzDP5tDDw5fJsG3woRd6QQ@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <50979B95.20206@aleph.se>

On 04/11/2012 22:45, BillK wrote:
> From the point of view of having a successful career I think that 
> being *too* clever can often be a disadvantage.

An interesting data point is the the anticorrelation with IQ and top 
level chess ability. Of course, there is a general correlation between 
smarts and chess. But when you look even at younger adults there is an 
anticorrelation at the top end. The reason is likely that chess skill is 
to a large degree about training, and smart people have more options - 
there may be a lot of competing interests.
http://v-scheiner.brunel.ac.uk/bitstream/2438/642/1/Does%20Chess%20Need%20Intelligence-revision-finalINT.pdf

I suspect the same is true for a lot of other domains. As the chess 
example shows, the impact of intelligence does not necessarily have to 
be negative on life for it to be negative on a particular skill or 
ability. A lot hinges on what the person values and how well this fits 
the world.

Intelligence is a very useful tool for living a good life, but it is not 
a sufficient tool.

-- 
Anders Sandberg,
Future of Humanity Institute
Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University



From anders at aleph.se  Mon Nov  5 11:18:37 2012
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2012 11:18:37 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Life @ Playstation
In-Reply-To: <CAPoR7a7Q6QiB8eQftwRWB_p3Q4Pbo=yNbzA=wGkPbuXvnfBOyw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPoR7a7TfytDPq0BJsuV3vuh0AMFhzDP5tDDw5fJsG3woRd6QQ@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <5097A08D.7040703@aleph.se>

On 04/11/2012 20:05, Stefano Vaj wrote:
> On 4 November 2012 19:03, James Clement <clementlawyer at gmail.com 
> <mailto:clementlawyer at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>     Most geniuses of this caliber are not turned on by money or power,
>     but generally want to facilitate making their vision of the future
>     happen. Most of the ones I've met are humanitarian types.
>
>
> In principle, this is a simple Paretian (or Darwinian?) issue. In a 
> society where the best thief is king, those who are best mostly choose 
> to be thieves. Why shouldn't they?

Motivations are complex. People seek out roles not just based on their 
expected reward, but whether they fit with self image and a long list of 
criteria (often surprisingly badly researched even in smart people - how 
many people spend the same effort weighing future careers as selecting a 
house?).

Looking at this diagram of IQ ranges in occupations
http://www.iqcomparisonsite.com/occupations.aspx
it is clear that there is a prepoderance of higher status occupations in 
the smarter end. But not all of them are well paid - college professors 
are on par with legal occupations, but the latter pay far better. Same 
thing with highschool teachers and finance/accounting, and so on. Also 
worth noting is that intelligent people can be found in nearly all 
occupations: there are fewer in the low-status ones, but still some.

The smarter you are, the more options you have.

-- 
Anders Sandberg,
Future of Humanity Institute
Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University

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From ddraig at gmail.com  Mon Nov  5 14:50:21 2012
From: ddraig at gmail.com (ddraig)
Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2012 01:50:21 +1100
Subject: [ExI] Life @ Playstation
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armhT8JjrzYBxhqjZvMZuVOgGuVcF_ry9YjZQG-FjYwadmg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPoR7a7TfytDPq0BJsuV3vuh0AMFhzDP5tDDw5fJsG3woRd6QQ@mail.gmail.com>
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On 5 November 2012 09:45, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:

>
> When I was in Mensa, we used to joke about the really high IQs being
> the ones who had men in white coats to take them home from meetings.
> The idea of the mad genius living in his own world, detached from
> reality is very common. I saw many clever people in Mensa whose life
> was a complete shambles due to their eccentric behaviour. From the
> point of view of having a successful career I think that being *too*
> clever can often be a disadvantage.
>


Wow I'd forgotten how horrible gmai is for quoting.  Anyways...


yeah, I've heard this my entire life:  "if you're so smart, why aren't you
rich?"   Well, because it's boring, and the sort of people you meet along
the way tend to be horrible, that's why.

Dwayne
-- 
  ddraig at pobox.com irc.bluesphereweb.com #dna
         ...r.e.t.u.r.n....t.o....t.h.e....s.o.u.r.c.e...
        http://tinyurl.com/he-is-right-you-know-jpg
our aim is wakefulness,  our enemy is dreamless sleep
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From spike66 at att.net  Mon Nov  5 15:37:16 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2012 07:37:16 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Life @ Playstation
In-Reply-To: <50979B95.20206@aleph.se>
References: <CAPoR7a7TfytDPq0BJsuV3vuh0AMFhzDP5tDDw5fJsG3woRd6QQ@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <002a01cdbb6b$707e90d0$517bb270$@att.net>

>...On Behalf Of Anders Sandberg
Subject: Re: [ExI] Life @ Playstation

On 04/11/2012 22:45, BillK wrote:
>> From the point of view of having a successful career I think that being
*too* clever can often be a disadvantage.

>...An interesting data point is the the anticorrelation with IQ and top
level chess ability. ...
http://v-scheiner.brunel.ac.uk/bitstream/2438/642/1/Does%20Chess%20Need%20In
telligence-revision-finalINT.pdf
Intelligence is a very useful tool for living a good life, but it is not a
sufficient tool.--
Anders Sandberg,


Thanks Anders, cool.  Please an anecdote:  in Palo Alto there is a chess
club that is invitation only, with nearly all the members being expert and
up.  I had a colleague who was a master, invited me even with my paltry A
rating.  So we played some fivers and such with the guys, about thirty,
among which was our own Lee Corbin, several years before ExI had been
formed.  The meeting started around 7pm, and I had a good time, won a few.
As 10pm approached, I started getting packed up to go home, and I noticed no
one else was even drifting toward the door.  This was a weeknight, not
Friday, but middle of the week.

Some yahoo gets up and says OK we are going to have this tournament, five
round robin, 25 minutes per player for the game, rounds start on the hour at
10pm.  I asked the one who invited me if these guys really intended to start
a chess tournament at 10pm on a Wednesday night and play until nearly 3am.
He assured me that it was standard operating procedure there, and that they
did this at least once a month, sometimes mid-month.  I asked if these folks
had jobs, and he pointed out that plenty of them did not.  This was in the
late 80s, when anyone who could do anything could get a job.  But here was
the SF Bay Area hard core chess players.

Another chess story: Bobby Fischer has been called the greatest chess player
of all time.  This is debatable, but no one would argue that he was by a
huge margin the best chess player of his time.  He dominated everything,
winning every tournament.   His over-the-board inventions astonish us to
this day with their creative brilliance.  Plenty of non-chess people who met
Fischer thought he was retarded, or at least seriously mentally deficient in
so many critical ways.  In retrospect, descriptions of his behavior would be
interpreted as what we would today call Aspergers Syndrome.  Fischer loved
chess so much and was rejected everywhere he went, except of course the
powerful Manhattan Chess Club, where he was treated as the god he was.  So
he hung out there most of his waking hours, dropped out of high school and
went on to become world champion, singlehandedly taking on the Russian chess
mafia and winning.

Anders' contention shows me evidence of the contention that there are many
different types of intelligence, and we are still developing ways to measure
them.

spike





From spike66 at att.net  Mon Nov  5 15:46:55 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2012 07:46:55 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Life @ Playstation
In-Reply-To: <CAGfkSy2P2bpARNKWvpqwsKS64Jg-BWYAr19PyrtiS0S6TrUZjQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPoR7a7TfytDPq0BJsuV3vuh0AMFhzDP5tDDw5fJsG3woRd6QQ@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <002b01cdbb6c$c970fe20$5c52fa60$@att.net>

 

 

From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of ddraig

yeah, I've heard this my entire life:  "if you're so smart, why aren't you
rich?"   Well, because it's boring, and the sort of people you meet along
the way tend to be horrible, that's why.

Dwayne
-- 



 

Dwayne, eventually I thought of a good retort to that question, If you're so
smart, why ain't ya rich:  If YOU'RE so smart, how do you know I ain't rich?

 

{8^D

 

spike

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From bbenzai at yahoo.com  Mon Nov  5 22:01:46 2012
From: bbenzai at yahoo.com (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2012 14:01:46 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ExI] Life @ Playstation
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1956.1352079994.17650.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <1352152906.80733.YahooMailClassic@web114401.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

"spike" <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

> What I have had rattling around in my brain for years,
> decades actually
> since long before we had anything like the computing
> horsepower we have
> today, is an idea for creating devices which stimulate the
> minds of nursing
> home patients.? One of the causes of their degradation
> is that nursing homes
> are so boring.? All their life's challenges are behind
> them, they don't
> really want to just spend hours talking to all their new
> acquaintances.? So
> most of them just sit in silent misery.



Spike, I've always liked your 'GeezerPod' idea, not least because it neatly fits in with an idea that's been rolling round the back of my mind for a while.

As these people are safely in their pods, all their physical needs taken care of, their minds are free(-er) to take advantage of the virtual environment they find themselves in, even perhaps to the extent of being able to do useful work and maybe make a living in there.  While their attention is on the virtual world (and perhaps also the real world via the virtual one), why not extend the 'life-support' functions of the pod until it really is a life-support system, keeping them alive where their unaided bodies would fail them?

This would need some tech. that we don't quite have yet, but I don't think we're that far off it.  Artificial or hybrid bio/artifical hearts, lungs, blood vessels, kidneys, bladders, etc. exist now, and it won't be long before pancreases, entire digestive systems, livers, spleens, bone marrow, lymph vessels and nodes, etc., etc., follow.  I can see a situation where an old infirm person (as long as their brains are relatively ok) enters a pod-existence, all their original biology gets gradually taken over by the pod, then later actually replaced as the tech. improves, all while they're having huge fun in virtual bingo-land or wherever (or doing remote consultancy or cyber-babysitting, or ...), and they come out the other end a few years later in a brand-new body, complete with the latest enhancements and interfaces, so that the next time they wear out, it's a lot easier to replace things.

This presupposes a CNS that stays healthy and working right, which sadly is not going to be the case for everyone, but there are plenty of centenarians who still have all their marbles, and it's likely that a young body would do wonders for an old brain, anyway.

It would also require proper neural interfaces at some point in the process, but again, we're making very good progress on that front too.

Imagine if nursing homes, the places people go to await death, became the gateways to a second (real) life!

<insert obligatory Mad Scientist Laugh here>



From spike66 at att.net  Mon Nov  5 23:41:16 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2012 15:41:16 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Life @ Playstation
In-Reply-To: <1352152906.80733.YahooMailClassic@web114401.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.1956.1352079994.17650.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <1352152906.80733.YahooMailClassic@web114401.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <011d01cdbbaf$0cfa17c0$26ee4740$@att.net>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Ben Zaiboc
Sent: Monday, November 05, 2012 2:02 PM
To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
Subject: Re: [ExI] Life @ Playstation

"spike" <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

>>... What I have had rattling around in my brain for years, decades 
> actually since long before we had anything like the computing 
> horsepower we have today, is an idea for creating devices which 
> stimulate the minds of nursing home patients...



>...Spike, I've always liked your 'GeezerPod' idea, not least because it
neatly fits in with an idea that's been rolling round the back of my mind
for a while.

Cool good.  This is such an obvious idea, there must be others thinking
about it and working on it somewhere.

>...As these people are safely in their pods, all their physical needs taken
care of...This would need some tech. that we don't quite have yet, but I
don't think we're that far off it.  Artificial or hybrid bio/artifical
hearts, lungs, blood vessels, kidneys, bladders, etc. exist now, and it
won't be long before pancreases, entire digestive systems, livers, spleens,
bone marrow, lymph vessels and nodes, etc., etc., follow...

Ja, but when you start thinking about it, my request is that we focus on
tech that is currently available.  Then our task is systems integration.
Focus on stuff we now have.  For instance, I have imagined a way to allow
immobile patients dump the old back end.  We could imagine some sort of
device which goes up in there and inflates somehow, such that it stays in
place, then circulates warm saline to break up the solids and gently wash
them out.  We can imagine a seat filled with air bladders such that it
inflates here deflates there, to rotate pressure points.  We can imagine a
system that brings in water up to the waist, circulating, as the patient
continues on her adventures, to gently cleanse the lower half.

Of course this will all be expensive, but if you take up my challenge to
visit a nursing home, casually inquire as to the cost to stay there.  Then
consider what kinds of devices we can design and build with ONLY ONE TO TWO
MONTH'S nursing home costs.  Then imagine something like this in the home,
stretching the time the patient can stay there.

>...  I can see a situation where an old infirm person (as long as their
brains are relatively ok) enters a pod-existence, all their original biology
gets gradually taken over by the pod, then later actually replaced as the
tech. improves, all while they're having huge fun in virtual bingo-land or
wherever (or doing remote consultancy or cyber-babysitting, or ...), and
they come out the other end a few years later in a brand-new body, complete
with the latest enhancements and interfaces, so that the next time they wear
out, it's a lot easier to replace things...

Cool idea.  When you think future, don't forget to think now.  We need this
stuff now.  We need it yesterday.

>...Imagine if nursing homes, the places people go to await death, became
the gateways to a second (real) life!

Indeed, and they should be.  My fond hope for you is that you never need to
do the distasteful task our family faces today.

It might help the innocents here if they actually witnessed an AD patient
watching TV and actually becoming part of the scene.  For some reason they
lose the awareness of a mirror or a TV screen, and become part of that
scene.  We can take advantage of that, to let them enter a Second Life
alternate reality.

>...<insert obligatory Mad Scientist Laugh here>

What's so mad about it?  Seems perfectly sane to me.

spike

_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat



From natasha at natasha.cc  Tue Nov  6 16:17:51 2012
From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More)
Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2012 09:17:51 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Acceler8or.com / RU Sirius Cover H+ @ San Francisco Theme
Message-ID: <00bd01cdbc3a$4555ac20$d0010460$@natasha.cc>

http://www.acceler8or.com/2012/11/4811/

 

 

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From pjmanney at gmail.com  Tue Nov  6 19:32:28 2012
From: pjmanney at gmail.com (PJ Manney)
Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2012 11:32:28 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Gifted children
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNRt9Jj9-HNsZ12UCyKPfGb5Qacv7fY4_vHA_=0BZEjczA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALAdGNSFAN=0WFsAW23nU908M_x=7AA23DJLjxEhMPnCcGagJw@mail.gmail.com>
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On Sun, Nov 4, 2012 at 9:21 PM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:
> From your description, I suspect it was your friend's
> connections, and/or that specific program's connections,
> that got the attention.  If such a thing were nationwide,
> MENSA would have heard of it.

Time to clear up this discussion...

There are many programs that track and monitor gifted children
nationwide, both civilian and government operated.  For example, my
children have been scouted by JHU-CTY, because they live in CA.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Center_for_Talented_Youth

You'll notice on the map that other University-based programs cover
other parts of the country.  These schools monitor every kid they want
to 1) pay for their advanced education/enrichment programs; 2) apply
to their college; and 3) share/sell their information with "relevant
parties."  And there are many relevant parties, including government
agencies.  Every kid who passes math or language state tests above a
certain metric gets tapped.  I repeat: EVERY KID.  But then they still
have to be tested yet again, and not all children make the final cut
into the program.  The super-gifted are given scholarships.  No Uni or
agency wants them to fall through the cracks.

My children have been scouted by other programs, too.  My son decided
to attend JHU-CTY one summer and not only made many gifted friends
from around the world that he corresponds with regularly on social
media, but is still dating his girlfriend from the program 16 months
later...  :-)

And by the way, her father and his twin brother were among the
original gifted "lab rats" Johns Hopkins studied back in the 70s to
create the program.  Her dad and I are the same generation and we both
remember the 70s as a time when being gifted was studied intensely.
They just didn't have programs developed yet to feed our heads.  We
had to feed our own...  ;-)  My IQ tests (and I was tested repeatedly
as a child and young adult, because I was the test case for grade
skipping in my public school district) more than qualified me for
Mensa, but I never saw the point of a group centered just around IQ,
since IQ is really bullshit...  But that's just me.

So don't say the gifted kids are left behind, unrecognized or not
tracked.  There has never been more identification, opportunities or
assets available to gifted children than there are now.  The fact that
Mensa doesn't recognize them simply baffles me...

PJ


From atymes at gmail.com  Tue Nov  6 20:26:41 2012
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2012 12:26:41 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Gifted children
In-Reply-To: <CAJrtBE0JpacGd1hKBY-SC5ViG4FSPd_MkKRgFWV5tU1ZK+vevQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALAdGNSFAN=0WFsAW23nU908M_x=7AA23DJLjxEhMPnCcGagJw@mail.gmail.com>
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On Tue, Nov 6, 2012 at 11:32 AM, PJ Manney <pjmanney at gmail.com> wrote:
> So don't say the gifted kids are left behind, unrecognized or not
> tracked.  There has never been more identification, opportunities or
> assets available to gifted children than there are now.  The fact that
> Mensa doesn't recognize them simply baffles me...

Neither I, nor any other gifted kid I personally know (and I
know and knew quite a few), was tracked in the manner
you claim.  I, too, was the test case for grade skipping at
my school.

That said, from the dates given in the article, they might
have reached the district I went to school in (Palo Alto
Unified) after I was mostly through school.  The gifted
children I know today - children of friends - go to private
schools, which could be (intentionally or not) shielding
from this tracking.  So...this does not necessarily
conflict with my personal experience, though it
intuitively feels unlikely that this has such a universal
reach as you claim.

That said...the article says that "over 80000" children are
tested each year.  There are 76.1 million children ages
0-17 in the US in 2012, according to
http://www.childstats.gov/americaschildren/tables.asp
.  Even cutting down to 5% of that is still about 3.8 million;
if, say, only the 10 year olds out of that were tested (so
as to test each child exactly once - but as you note, any
child of interest would be tested multiple times), that's still
about 200,000 children.  The numbers just don't seem to
add up to tracking *all* children, like you say.


From mbb386 at main.nc.us  Tue Nov  6 21:33:15 2012
From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB)
Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2012 16:33:15 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Gifted children
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNT2TdGSjRyF2bkz9P2qJKch476R53iFaNYH=eDhNUEyhQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALAdGNSFAN=0WFsAW23nU908M_x=7AA23DJLjxEhMPnCcGagJw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+LBAbR46CnQNVCpCGCRrTtV-1tpjKJFacscMtwx2Y05VEuCQA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQS7UP-a+Grtr521jdBJ_VXUDcGrUeBDDC44FFe6yS5dg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+LBAbTg9Dg-9WHH84oFQpbk0hjebFUYbX6wujvN36z_m7w8mA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRt9Jj9-HNsZ12UCyKPfGb5Qacv7fY4_vHA_=0BZEjczA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJrtBE0JpacGd1hKBY-SC5ViG4FSPd_MkKRgFWV5tU1ZK+vevQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNT2TdGSjRyF2bkz9P2qJKch476R53iFaNYH=eDhNUEyhQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9e49151df1c5c3e1d9551a9d94c80d9e.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>

Heh. My daughter was selected for such a university
sponsored program. She went for a couple weeks (as I
recall) to work with the super computers there at the
university. It was a great honor.

Unfortunately she was the only girl and they had her
getting the soda pop and snacks, not working with the
computer. She was very unhappy, but got over it when she
was introduced to heavy petting.

Shall we say I was not pleased?

Regards,
MB

ps. My son was also selected for the gifted program in his
school district. It consisted of being driven to another
school one morning a week for a 1 hour program and then
driven back to the home school.



From pjmanney at gmail.com  Tue Nov  6 21:37:31 2012
From: pjmanney at gmail.com (PJ Manney)
Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2012 13:37:31 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Gifted children
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNT2TdGSjRyF2bkz9P2qJKch476R53iFaNYH=eDhNUEyhQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALAdGNSFAN=0WFsAW23nU908M_x=7AA23DJLjxEhMPnCcGagJw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+LBAbR46CnQNVCpCGCRrTtV-1tpjKJFacscMtwx2Y05VEuCQA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQS7UP-a+Grtr521jdBJ_VXUDcGrUeBDDC44FFe6yS5dg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+LBAbTg9Dg-9WHH84oFQpbk0hjebFUYbX6wujvN36z_m7w8mA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRt9Jj9-HNsZ12UCyKPfGb5Qacv7fY4_vHA_=0BZEjczA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJrtBE0JpacGd1hKBY-SC5ViG4FSPd_MkKRgFWV5tU1ZK+vevQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNT2TdGSjRyF2bkz9P2qJKch476R53iFaNYH=eDhNUEyhQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJrtBE2A3oyi6iU+MqA=P0qM=o5YeVJRDS_8e+h1e+wX4G+gxw@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Nov 6, 2012 at 12:26 PM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:
> That said...the article says that "over 80000" children are
> tested each year.  There are 76.1 million children ages
> 0-17 in the US in 2012, according to
> http://www.childstats.gov/americaschildren/tables.asp
> .  Even cutting down to 5% of that is still about 3.8 million;
> if, say, only the 10 year olds out of that were tested (so
> as to test each child exactly once - but as you note, any
> child of interest would be tested multiple times), that's still
> about 200,000 children.  The numbers just don't seem to
> add up to tracking *all* children, like you say.

Reread the article:  It only covers JHU-CTY, which only covers 20
states and DC.  There are 3 other universities involved, with their
own cadre of kids.  I have no idea what their numbers are.  You can
look it up if you're that interested.  And you may be right that some
private schools don't participate.  However, my son attended with many
private school kids.

PJ


From pjmanney at gmail.com  Tue Nov  6 22:04:55 2012
From: pjmanney at gmail.com (PJ Manney)
Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2012 14:04:55 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Gifted children
In-Reply-To: <9e49151df1c5c3e1d9551a9d94c80d9e.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
References: <CALAdGNSFAN=0WFsAW23nU908M_x=7AA23DJLjxEhMPnCcGagJw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+LBAbR46CnQNVCpCGCRrTtV-1tpjKJFacscMtwx2Y05VEuCQA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQS7UP-a+Grtr521jdBJ_VXUDcGrUeBDDC44FFe6yS5dg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+LBAbTg9Dg-9WHH84oFQpbk0hjebFUYbX6wujvN36z_m7w8mA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRt9Jj9-HNsZ12UCyKPfGb5Qacv7fY4_vHA_=0BZEjczA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJrtBE0JpacGd1hKBY-SC5ViG4FSPd_MkKRgFWV5tU1ZK+vevQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNT2TdGSjRyF2bkz9P2qJKch476R53iFaNYH=eDhNUEyhQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <9e49151df1c5c3e1d9551a9d94c80d9e.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
Message-ID: <CAJrtBE2W9YXNWUNppkHpP4zk1Ad5Fh5vz+rJKnpjNKTmua4tpg@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Nov 6, 2012 at 1:33 PM, MB <mbb386 at main.nc.us> wrote:
> Heh. My daughter was selected for such a university
> sponsored program.

<snip>

> She was very unhappy, but got over it when she
> was introduced to heavy petting.

Hahahahahaha...  I think my son and your daughter shared that in their
curriculum!

PJ


From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Tue Nov  6 22:55:59 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2012 23:55:59 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Life @ Playstation
In-Reply-To: <CA+LBAbTJES=AnaFT0XedPVdnbWi5qZsg-zoK-kCAnryr5ncTbQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPoR7a7TfytDPq0BJsuV3vuh0AMFhzDP5tDDw5fJsG3woRd6QQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1211040351090.1564@tau.ceti.pl>
 <CAPoR7a72WohEYQx2vErC=Cn0yVTSM6Vbs2+==cNxurPHdrePqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <001601cdba88$b0e81210$12b83630$@att.net>
 <CAPoR7a4hpk+S47RL=Xj31b9S1YUqfK=H+kGqUO6S-Tr+RH_-Yw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+LBAbSw5xDXJX9q+vJr=VRF7DNSin9ynZf=hhF1dCQuABPzjg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a7Q6QiB8eQftwRWB_p3Q4Pbo=yNbzA=wGkPbuXvnfBOyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+LBAbTJES=AnaFT0XedPVdnbWi5qZsg-zoK-kCAnryr5ncTbQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a4+8cwF44aqGKL02iRAjWePX7pOacJB9abToQ3T1kOBKA@mail.gmail.com>

On 4 November 2012 22:28, James Clement <clementlawyer at gmail.com> wrote:

> Social Darwinism is an excuse to be sociopathic, IMHO (
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Darwinism). None of
> the super-geniuses I know are truly motivated to "compete" in society. Most
> are too caught up in their own thoughts (some might say in an autistic
> manner) to care about what society thinks of them. That's not so say
> they're social misfits (any more than normal people), just that they seem
> uninterested in proving anything to anyone. The people who have been
> motivated towards power whom I've known have all been of lesser talent and
> abilities, with something to prove, vis-a-vis other people.
>

Hey, if this is true this would be a good reason why opinion leaders and
other people able to succeed in social competition will be able to prevent
forever the diffusion of genius within our species... :-)

Seriously, I think we risk to confuse cultural paradigms where social
competition is based on stupid and/or irrelevant and/or asocial values and
the fact that by definition "talent" is defined as the ability to
outperform others at a given task, whatever this might be.

For instance, it is perfectly conceivable, and we have some historical
exemples, of systems where the ability to devote oneself entirely to the
group's interest is a fundamental requirement for social success, and as
such becomes a competitive and hierarchical factor in the society concerned.

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Tue Nov  6 23:26:08 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 00:26:08 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Life @ Playstation
In-Reply-To: <5097A08D.7040703@aleph.se>
References: <CAPoR7a7TfytDPq0BJsuV3vuh0AMFhzDP5tDDw5fJsG3woRd6QQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1211040351090.1564@tau.ceti.pl>
 <CAPoR7a72WohEYQx2vErC=Cn0yVTSM6Vbs2+==cNxurPHdrePqg@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CA+LBAbSw5xDXJX9q+vJr=VRF7DNSin9ynZf=hhF1dCQuABPzjg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a7Q6QiB8eQftwRWB_p3Q4Pbo=yNbzA=wGkPbuXvnfBOyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <5097A08D.7040703@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a6ZWCyjuwOiy_bKfxJHkmTxgt4nWcJ2HohW52mxXEDF6w@mail.gmail.com>

On 5 November 2012 12:18, Anders Sandberg <anders at aleph.se> wrote:

>  On 04/11/2012 20:05, Stefano Vaj wrote:
>
> In principle, this is a simple Paretian (or Darwinian?) issue. In a
> society where the best thief is king, those who are best mostly choose to
> be thieves. Why shouldn't they?
>
>
> Motivations are complex. People seek out roles not just based on their
> expected reward, but whether they fit with self image and a long list of
> criteria (often surprisingly badly researched even in smart people - how
> many people spend the same effort weighing future careers as selecting a
> house?).
>
> Looking at this diagram of IQ ranges in occupations
> http://www.iqcomparisonsite.com/occupations.aspx
> it is clear that there is a prepoderance of higher status occupations in
> the smarter end. But not all of them are well paid - college professors are
> on par with legal occupations, but the latter pay far better. Same thing
> with highschool teachers and finance/accounting, and so on. Also worth
> noting is that intelligent people can be found in nearly all occupations:
> there are fewer in the low-status ones, but still some.
>

No, people do seek roles based on their respective rewards, simply, even
today and in western societies, not *all* rewards and hierarchies are
monetary in nature.

Most presidents of the United States were clever enough, albeit not always
very clever, to make more money in the private sector, and still they chose
to run.

Being a college professor may involve more fun, a higher intellectual
satisfaction, less risks, more perks, a nicer environment and above all a
higher social status than being a divorce lawyer, let alone a drug pusher,
even though the pay is significantly lower.  And similar reasons exist why
the divorce lawyer might still consider a career progression, at least in
the UK, to become a High Court judge at a point in time.

I am also inclined to think that healthy and vibrant societies accomodate
by definition a large diversity of social roles, models and ideals, and a
pluralistic view of "success".

My concern is in fact that in *our* societies, in spite of the limited
surviving of the qualifications above, monetary wealth is becoming
increasingly universal as the sole cause, measure and effect of social
success; and that in turn such wealth is distributed on the basis on
increasingly reduced and dysfunctional criteria.

This is of course reflected by the fact that the ratio between the
respective pay, and above all the respective perceived "importance", of a
brilliant researcher, a famous politician and a successful banker have
steadily changed along the decades in a direction well known to all of us.

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From clementlawyer at gmail.com  Tue Nov  6 22:54:45 2012
From: clementlawyer at gmail.com (James Clement)
Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2012 17:54:45 -0500
Subject: [ExI] TIL - Rage Comic (and Reddit) saves a life
Message-ID: <CA+LBAbTcjzuy2d6webEnR=qCcs3FjauV9LL3yzAV9z6PTuooSw@mail.gmail.com>

Check these out:

1) http://imgur.com/Xt6B5
2)
http://www.reddit.com/r/fffffffuuuuuuuuuuuu/comments/12kihx/pregnant_man_rage/c6vu6g9
3)
http://www.reddit.com/r/fffffffuuuuuuuuuuuu/comments/12kihx/pregnant_man_rage/c6wyitw
4) http://imgur.com/oG492


James Clement
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From pjmanney at gmail.com  Wed Nov  7 00:46:29 2012
From: pjmanney at gmail.com (PJ Manney)
Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2012 16:46:29 -0800
Subject: [ExI] TIL - Rage Comic (and Reddit) saves a life
In-Reply-To: <CA+LBAbTcjzuy2d6webEnR=qCcs3FjauV9LL3yzAV9z6PTuooSw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+LBAbTcjzuy2d6webEnR=qCcs3FjauV9LL3yzAV9z6PTuooSw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJrtBE0-pknf-JmwNGz29+BM4b1_0L1snGHqHd6LhwZxzJoFew@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Nov 6, 2012 at 2:54 PM, James Clement <clementlawyer at gmail.com> wrote:
> Check these out:
>
> 1) http://imgur.com/Xt6B5
> 2)
> http://www.reddit.com/r/fffffffuuuuuuuuuuuu/comments/12kihx/pregnant_man_rage/c6vu6g9
> 3)
> http://www.reddit.com/r/fffffffuuuuuuuuuuuu/comments/12kihx/pregnant_man_rage/c6wyitw
> 4) http://imgur.com/oG492

That's fu@&in' awesome!  The power of Internet media revealed.  :-)

PJ


From anders at aleph.se  Wed Nov  7 09:09:06 2012
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2012 09:09:06 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Life @ Playstation
In-Reply-To: <CAPoR7a6ZWCyjuwOiy_bKfxJHkmTxgt4nWcJ2HohW52mxXEDF6w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPoR7a7TfytDPq0BJsuV3vuh0AMFhzDP5tDDw5fJsG3woRd6QQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1211040351090.1564@tau.ceti.pl>
 <CAPoR7a72WohEYQx2vErC=Cn0yVTSM6Vbs2+==cNxurPHdrePqg@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CA+LBAbSw5xDXJX9q+vJr=VRF7DNSin9ynZf=hhF1dCQuABPzjg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a7Q6QiB8eQftwRWB_p3Q4Pbo=yNbzA=wGkPbuXvnfBOyw@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CAPoR7a6ZWCyjuwOiy_bKfxJHkmTxgt4nWcJ2HohW52mxXEDF6w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <509A2532.2090202@aleph.se>

On 06/11/2012 23:26, Stefano Vaj wrote:
> Being a college professor may involve more fun, a higher intellectual 
> satisfaction, less risks, more perks, a nicer environment and above 
> all a higher social status than being a divorce lawyer, let alone a 
> drug pusher, even though the pay is significantly lower.

Exactly.

Although drug pushers, as described in Freakonomics, actually do not 
make much money in median. In fact, the interesting thing is that the 
job attracts people because of a very long tail - a few make enormous 
amounts (while most of the rest live at home with their mothers). This 
is similar to trying a career as an elite athlete, celebrity or in any 
other ultra-competitive field: the rewards are extremely focused on the 
very best/luckiest. Which makes it the opposite of a minimax strategy: 
good if you have a big appetite for risk, but also tending to attract 
seriously overconfident people.

(In a globalized world it is especially these fields that are really 
affected: now you have to compete against the best *anywhere*)

> I am also inclined to think that healthy and vibrant societies 
> accomodate by definition a large diversity of social roles, models and 
> ideals, and a pluralistic view of "success".
>
> My concern is in fact that in *our* societies, in spite of the limited 
> surviving of the qualifications above, monetary wealth is becoming 
> increasingly universal as the sole cause, measure and effect of social 
> success; and that in turn such wealth is distributed on the basis on 
> increasingly reduced and dysfunctional criteria.

Maybe you hang around with the wrong society?

I think the overall global trend is towards postmaterialist values, as 
described by the World Values Survey. But locally trends can of course 
point in all directions, including within certain social networks and 
periods. Britain has been having fairly strong pendulum swings between 
status as money and status as social capital. The current economic 
troubles make a lot of people value money more (yet, at the same time, 
might reduce its direct status - it is more about security). And the 
opportunities for getting other kinds of social status - hacker cred, 
academic cred, transhumanist cred, etc. - have increased tremendously.

(In fact, as Tyler Cowen suggested, we might have a long term economic 
problem if there are easier ways of gaining status and happiness than 
activities that produce economic growth - the Internet might make us 
happier, but it does not produce employment. )

-- 
Anders Sandberg,
Future of Humanity Institute
Oxford Martin School
Faculty of Philosophy
Oxford University



From sondre-list at bjellas.com  Wed Nov  7 09:25:08 2012
From: sondre-list at bjellas.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Sondre_Bjell=E5s?=)
Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 10:25:08 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Gifted children
In-Reply-To: <9e49151df1c5c3e1d9551a9d94c80d9e.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
References: <CALAdGNSFAN=0WFsAW23nU908M_x=7AA23DJLjxEhMPnCcGagJw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+LBAbR46CnQNVCpCGCRrTtV-1tpjKJFacscMtwx2Y05VEuCQA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQS7UP-a+Grtr521jdBJ_VXUDcGrUeBDDC44FFe6yS5dg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+LBAbTg9Dg-9WHH84oFQpbk0hjebFUYbX6wujvN36z_m7w8mA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRt9Jj9-HNsZ12UCyKPfGb5Qacv7fY4_vHA_=0BZEjczA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJrtBE0JpacGd1hKBY-SC5ViG4FSPd_MkKRgFWV5tU1ZK+vevQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNT2TdGSjRyF2bkz9P2qJKch476R53iFaNYH=eDhNUEyhQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <9e49151df1c5c3e1d9551a9d94c80d9e.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
Message-ID: <CABncCQcY=0BGy3rzaeKCfguM1h9qvSbpKoFXJqFuwKzVuy=_+Q@mail.gmail.com>

I have a general question regarding school, or the lack of school options:

We live in Norway and our daughter is still only 19+ months old, but we've
already started thinking about what we can do for her in regards to
schooling. Here in Norway, there are virtually no private alternatives
other than religious schools. The public schools are some of the worst in
the world and Norwegians score poorly in global tests.

Which country would be a good alternative where one would be able to get a
visa, permanent residency?

I consider myself a decently bright enough guy, but I've never had the
attention span to complete a real IQ test. I did an online test at Mensa
Norway a year ago, scored 101. I could probably do higher if I cared.

Neither me nor my wife consider ourselves gifted individuals, we're pretty
normal except for the fact that I'm a big computer geek and been
programming all my life.

Our daughter on the other hand, is showing incredible skills even at 19
months. I want to nurture her apparent lust for learning for as long as I
can, but my own skills in mathematics, physics, etc. is limited. I went
into working when I was 17, couldn't be bothered with school which didn't
teach me anything valuable or anything I couldn't learn better on my own.
But obviously, that means some of the more non-physical skills are missing
;-)

She have been using the iPad since she was 3 months old, for watching
movies. Now she plays a lot of games, and whenever she comes across any
device, she'll unlock it in a second and find her favorite apps and games.

We've decided that her mother will stay home for at least 2 years, I stayed
home for the first 8 months as well. The norm here in Norway is to put kids
in kinder-garden at 1 year of age, we felt that was to early and we thought
we could do better ourselves. Most kids in kinder-garden are constantly
sick, our daughter have been sick twice so far. I believe that hinders a
kids development.

I'm sorry for ranting on like this, but my concern is that she will be
extremely bored at school when she's 6 as I'm sure she will be ahead of the
average. Or, she might not, we love her anyhow! :-) Wouldn't want to
home-school her, she would be better off with lots of other kids around.
What would your suggestions be as parents on your own?


Kind regards,
Sondre




On Tue, Nov 6, 2012 at 10:33 PM, MB <mbb386 at main.nc.us> wrote:

> Heh. My daughter was selected for such a university
> sponsored program. She went for a couple weeks (as I
> recall) to work with the super computers there at the
> university. It was a great honor.
>
> Unfortunately she was the only girl and they had her
> getting the soda pop and snacks, not working with the
> computer. She was very unhappy, but got over it when she
> was introduced to heavy petting.
>
> Shall we say I was not pleased?
>
> Regards,
> MB
>
> ps. My son was also selected for the gifted program in his
> school district. It consisted of being driven to another
> school one morning a week for a 1 hour program and then
> driven back to the home school.
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>



-- 
Sondre Bjell?s
http://www.sondreb.com/
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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Wed Nov  7 10:09:13 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 11:09:13 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Life @ Playstation
In-Reply-To: <509A2532.2090202@aleph.se>
References: <CAPoR7a7TfytDPq0BJsuV3vuh0AMFhzDP5tDDw5fJsG3woRd6QQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1211040351090.1564@tau.ceti.pl>
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 <CAPoR7a7Q6QiB8eQftwRWB_p3Q4Pbo=yNbzA=wGkPbuXvnfBOyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <5097A08D.7040703@aleph.se>
 <CAPoR7a6ZWCyjuwOiy_bKfxJHkmTxgt4nWcJ2HohW52mxXEDF6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <509A2532.2090202@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a4ZyknUWhYLDKnrRB7yPTVyj9YhhhKomvLaCbdGo+Z+=g@mail.gmail.com>

On 7 November 2012 10:09, Anders Sandberg <anders at aleph.se> wrote:

> Maybe you hang around with the wrong society?
>

It may be... :-)

Or, since I was of course speaking of megatrends, the increasing
"monetarisation" of social values, status, power, peer recognition, etc.,
may just be my taking at face value rants which in fact have been
widespread since the Ancien R?gime, and often with reactionary undertones.

Hard data however exist with regard to the comparative appeal of different
educational and career paths for brilliant students, or with regard to the
evolution of the comparative influence, subjective sense of achievement and
life standards of people in different social roles, which are not entirely
comforting as to what is worth what in our societies and the future of the
latter.

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From pharos at gmail.com  Wed Nov  7 11:51:22 2012
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 11:51:22 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Gifted children
In-Reply-To: <CABncCQcY=0BGy3rzaeKCfguM1h9qvSbpKoFXJqFuwKzVuy=_+Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALAdGNSFAN=0WFsAW23nU908M_x=7AA23DJLjxEhMPnCcGagJw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+LBAbR46CnQNVCpCGCRrTtV-1tpjKJFacscMtwx2Y05VEuCQA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQS7UP-a+Grtr521jdBJ_VXUDcGrUeBDDC44FFe6yS5dg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+LBAbTg9Dg-9WHH84oFQpbk0hjebFUYbX6wujvN36z_m7w8mA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRt9Jj9-HNsZ12UCyKPfGb5Qacv7fY4_vHA_=0BZEjczA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJrtBE0JpacGd1hKBY-SC5ViG4FSPd_MkKRgFWV5tU1ZK+vevQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNT2TdGSjRyF2bkz9P2qJKch476R53iFaNYH=eDhNUEyhQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <9e49151df1c5c3e1d9551a9d94c80d9e.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
 <CABncCQcY=0BGy3rzaeKCfguM1h9qvSbpKoFXJqFuwKzVuy=_+Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armj9mvcwx762QduMimFDGtvNgKQf-D4DM6AUaCtR+QTxfg@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 9:25 AM, Sondre Bjell?s  wrote:
> We live in Norway and our daughter is still only 19+ months old, but we've
> already started thinking about what we can do for her in regards to
> schooling. Here in Norway, there are virtually no private alternatives other
> than religious schools. The public schools are some of the worst in the
> world and Norwegians score poorly in global tests.
>
> Which country would be a good alternative where one would be able to get a
> visa, permanent residency?
>
<snip>
>
> I'm sorry for ranting on like this, but my concern is that she will be
> extremely bored at school when she's 6 as I'm sure she will be ahead of the
> average. Or, she might not, we love her anyhow! :-) Wouldn't want to
> home-school her, she would be better off with lots of other kids around.
> What would your suggestions be as parents on your own?
>

Moving to a different country is not a trivial task. I'd spend more
time investigating Norway and Sweden educational possibilities. It may
only mean moving nearer a better school in Norway. You just need to
find it.

Remember - you are not alone. There must be hundreds (at least) gifted
children in Norway /Sweden.
Use the web and contacts to find out what other parents are doing, -
clubs, societies, special schools, advanced courses, etc.

Best wishes, BillK



From sondre-list at bjellas.com  Wed Nov  7 12:09:47 2012
From: sondre-list at bjellas.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Sondre_Bjell=E5s?=)
Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 13:09:47 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Gifted children
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armj9mvcwx762QduMimFDGtvNgKQf-D4DM6AUaCtR+QTxfg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALAdGNSFAN=0WFsAW23nU908M_x=7AA23DJLjxEhMPnCcGagJw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+LBAbR46CnQNVCpCGCRrTtV-1tpjKJFacscMtwx2Y05VEuCQA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQS7UP-a+Grtr521jdBJ_VXUDcGrUeBDDC44FFe6yS5dg@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CALAdGNRt9Jj9-HNsZ12UCyKPfGb5Qacv7fY4_vHA_=0BZEjczA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJrtBE0JpacGd1hKBY-SC5ViG4FSPd_MkKRgFWV5tU1ZK+vevQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNT2TdGSjRyF2bkz9P2qJKch476R53iFaNYH=eDhNUEyhQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <9e49151df1c5c3e1d9551a9d94c80d9e.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
 <CABncCQcY=0BGy3rzaeKCfguM1h9qvSbpKoFXJqFuwKzVuy=_+Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armj9mvcwx762QduMimFDGtvNgKQf-D4DM6AUaCtR+QTxfg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABncCQczFu-LxsbjL_6CRh=myDQYEnSBnEa2SpjHVDR4aj6ShQ@mail.gmail.com>

If we get our first proper right-wing government in the next election, the
situation might improve in the coming years, but I have my doubts. What I
do think will happen, is advances to online schooling and education. With
kids growing up in rural places who learn a lot from computers (and
smartphones) from when they are young, there should probably be a decent
market to fulfill with online classrooms. Just think about the amount of
kids growing up in poor families and conditions around the world, they can
still get hold of cheap computers and smartphones and kick-start their own
educations wherever they are. But it can only take you so far...

A friend of mine was gifted as a child. He was put in a class with only
troubled kids. I can promise you, it was not good for him ;-)

Thanks,
Sondre


On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 12:51 PM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 9:25 AM, Sondre Bjell?s  wrote:
> > We live in Norway and our daughter is still only 19+ months old, but
> we've
> > already started thinking about what we can do for her in regards to
> > schooling. Here in Norway, there are virtually no private alternatives
> other
> > than religious schools. The public schools are some of the worst in the
> > world and Norwegians score poorly in global tests.
> >
> > Which country would be a good alternative where one would be able to get
> a
> > visa, permanent residency?
> >
> <snip>
> >
> > I'm sorry for ranting on like this, but my concern is that she will be
> > extremely bored at school when she's 6 as I'm sure she will be ahead of
> the
> > average. Or, she might not, we love her anyhow! :-) Wouldn't want to
> > home-school her, she would be better off with lots of other kids around.
> > What would your suggestions be as parents on your own?
> >
>
> Moving to a different country is not a trivial task. I'd spend more
> time investigating Norway and Sweden educational possibilities. It may
> only mean moving nearer a better school in Norway. You just need to
> find it.
>
> Remember - you are not alone. There must be hundreds (at least) gifted
> children in Norway /Sweden.
> Use the web and contacts to find out what other parents are doing, -
> clubs, societies, special schools, advanced courses, etc.
>
> Best wishes, BillK
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>



-- 
Sondre Bjell?s
http://www.sondreb.com/
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From pharos at gmail.com  Wed Nov  7 12:27:50 2012
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 12:27:50 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Is your medication causing symptoms of early dementia?
Message-ID: <CAL_armjeavmnjoBu2HVDjsLuYez-dYnyCY7c95+TX0CpRwdv+Q@mail.gmail.com>

Are you elderly and having memory or concentration problems?
November 7, 2012
They might be caused by common medications used to treat insomnia,
anxiety, itching or allergies, according to Dr. Cara Tannenbaum,

<http://www.kurzweilai.net/are-you-elderly-and-having-memory-or-concentration-problems>
Quote:
Up to 90 percent of people over the age of 65 take at least one
prescription medication. Eighteen percent of people in this age group
complain of memory problems and are found to have mild cognitive
deficits. Research suggests there may be a link between the two.
Dr. Tannenbaum?s findings support the recommendation issued in the
Revised Beers Criteria published last spring 2012 by the American
Geriatrics Society that all sleeping pills, first-generation
antihistamines, and tricyclic antidepressants should be avoided at all
costs in seniors.
------------------

I would have thought that it was fairly obvious that the valium range
of drugs would cause memory and concentration problems. That is what
they are for - to help people concentrate less on their worries.
But antihistamines is a surprise.

BillK



From mbb386 at main.nc.us  Wed Nov  7 13:07:27 2012
From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB)
Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 08:07:27 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Gifted children
In-Reply-To: <CABncCQczFu-LxsbjL_6CRh=myDQYEnSBnEa2SpjHVDR4aj6ShQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALAdGNSFAN=0WFsAW23nU908M_x=7AA23DJLjxEhMPnCcGagJw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+LBAbR46CnQNVCpCGCRrTtV-1tpjKJFacscMtwx2Y05VEuCQA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQS7UP-a+Grtr521jdBJ_VXUDcGrUeBDDC44FFe6yS5dg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+LBAbTg9Dg-9WHH84oFQpbk0hjebFUYbX6wujvN36z_m7w8mA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRt9Jj9-HNsZ12UCyKPfGb5Qacv7fY4_vHA_=0BZEjczA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJrtBE0JpacGd1hKBY-SC5ViG4FSPd_MkKRgFWV5tU1ZK+vevQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNT2TdGSjRyF2bkz9P2qJKch476R53iFaNYH=eDhNUEyhQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <9e49151df1c5c3e1d9551a9d94c80d9e.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
 <CABncCQcY=0BGy3rzaeKCfguM1h9qvSbpKoFXJqFuwKzVuy=_+Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armj9mvcwx762QduMimFDGtvNgKQf-D4DM6AUaCtR+QTxfg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABncCQczFu-LxsbjL_6CRh=myDQYEnSBnEa2SpjHVDR4aj6ShQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <162901b1b5bb768e009f8a9f0f21e99a.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>


> A friend of mine was gifted as a child. He was put in a
> class with only
> troubled kids. I can promise you, it was not good for him
> ;-)

My son, after being identified as Gifted and sent to the
local Gifted Program was, at his next school, put into the
"slow learner" class, known as the "dumb class" - he is
dyslexic.  I can promise you, it was not good for him
either.  :(

Then we sent him to a special (expensive) school for
Learning Disabled. He did well.

After two years, we put him into private school. He
graduated first in his class.

School is a crapshoot, IMHO.

Good luck with your child.

Regards,
MB





From atymes at gmail.com  Wed Nov  7 17:40:33 2012
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 09:40:33 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Gifted children
In-Reply-To: <CABncCQcY=0BGy3rzaeKCfguM1h9qvSbpKoFXJqFuwKzVuy=_+Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALAdGNSFAN=0WFsAW23nU908M_x=7AA23DJLjxEhMPnCcGagJw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+LBAbR46CnQNVCpCGCRrTtV-1tpjKJFacscMtwx2Y05VEuCQA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQS7UP-a+Grtr521jdBJ_VXUDcGrUeBDDC44FFe6yS5dg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+LBAbTg9Dg-9WHH84oFQpbk0hjebFUYbX6wujvN36z_m7w8mA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRt9Jj9-HNsZ12UCyKPfGb5Qacv7fY4_vHA_=0BZEjczA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJrtBE0JpacGd1hKBY-SC5ViG4FSPd_MkKRgFWV5tU1ZK+vevQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNT2TdGSjRyF2bkz9P2qJKch476R53iFaNYH=eDhNUEyhQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <9e49151df1c5c3e1d9551a9d94c80d9e.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
 <CABncCQcY=0BGy3rzaeKCfguM1h9qvSbpKoFXJqFuwKzVuy=_+Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNQdJqun9arzA7w_TzM3FDoz=MQOQpyFGJSH-oUZ3BMRLw@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 1:25 AM, Sondre Bjell?s <sondre-list at bjellas.com> wrote:
> We live in Norway and our daughter is still only 19+ months old, but we've
> already started thinking about what we can do for her in regards to
> schooling. Here in Norway, there are virtually no private alternatives other
> than religious schools. The public schools are some of the worst in the
> world and Norwegians score poorly in global tests.

Worst in Europe, maybe.  "Worst in the world" means you're
comparing to countries which have virtually no public schooling,
and/or outlaw girls going to school.  It seems highly unlikely
that Norway's schools would be nearly that bad.

> Which country would be a good alternative where one would be able to get a
> visa, permanent residency?

I echo Bill's statement that you should seriously look at
schools within Norway first.

That said, if you're serious about changing countries - which
suggests you have reasons other than just education - schools
in parts of the US are really good.  Be careful which part you
choose, but for instance, the public primary education in Palo
Alto, California ranks among the best in the world (though
schools in certain other parts of California, not so much) - and
the area is generally welcoming to transhumanist mindsets.

> Our daughter on the other hand, is showing incredible skills even at 19
> months.

Be careful.  Lots of parents think their children perform far, far
beyond the level they actually perform at.  It is a natural
cognitive bias - but it is still a bias.

> She have been using the iPad since she was 3 months old, for watching
> movies. Now she plays a lot of games, and whenever she comes across any
> device, she'll unlock it in a second and find her favorite apps and games.

Try getting her interested in math and logic games.  Not the
typical "do a puzzle to get some flashy unrelated reward", but
games where the puzzle to solve is actually related to advancing
things.  Things like these, though they may be too advanced
just now: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robot_Odyssey#Similar_games

http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/7221/on-sets may be
better at her age.

> The norm here in Norway is to put kids
> in kinder-garden at 1 year of age, we felt that was to early and we thought
> we could do better ourselves.

Kindergarten in the US starts at 5.  See
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_the_United_States



From jrd1415 at gmail.com  Wed Nov  7 18:50:17 2012
From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis)
Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 11:50:17 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Gifted children
In-Reply-To: <CABncCQcY=0BGy3rzaeKCfguM1h9qvSbpKoFXJqFuwKzVuy=_+Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALAdGNSFAN=0WFsAW23nU908M_x=7AA23DJLjxEhMPnCcGagJw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+LBAbR46CnQNVCpCGCRrTtV-1tpjKJFacscMtwx2Y05VEuCQA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQS7UP-a+Grtr521jdBJ_VXUDcGrUeBDDC44FFe6yS5dg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+LBAbTg9Dg-9WHH84oFQpbk0hjebFUYbX6wujvN36z_m7w8mA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRt9Jj9-HNsZ12UCyKPfGb5Qacv7fY4_vHA_=0BZEjczA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJrtBE0JpacGd1hKBY-SC5ViG4FSPd_MkKRgFWV5tU1ZK+vevQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNT2TdGSjRyF2bkz9P2qJKch476R53iFaNYH=eDhNUEyhQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <9e49151df1c5c3e1d9551a9d94c80d9e.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
 <CABncCQcY=0BGy3rzaeKCfguM1h9qvSbpKoFXJqFuwKzVuy=_+Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHUTwkNs85gNTTQEZtA9M_NSuOSgsRANzwB=Qfpds5tViGqg_Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 2:25 AM, Sondre Bjell?s <sondre-list at bjellas.com> wrote:
> Our daughter on the other hand, is showing incredible skills even at 19 months.

Congratulations!

> I want to nurture her apparent lust for learning for as long as I can

Congratulations yet again!  You're already more than halfway there.

> Most kids in kinder-garden are constantly
> sick, our daughter have been sick twice so far. I believe that hinders a kids development.

This is something of a normal situation.  The naive immune system must
be trained up by exposure to these common ailments.  Treat the
symptoms and make the best of it.

> I'm sorry for ranting on like this,...

No apology necessary, in fact, your appeal doesn't really qualify as a rant.

> Wouldn't want to home-school her, she would be better off with lots of other kids around

> What would your suggestions be as parents on your own?

I agree that socialization is important, but that doesn't necessarily
exclude home schooling.  Look around for like-minded folks and gather
a group and do a cooperative home-school rotation.

Being surrounded by loving parents who are part of the process rather
than just onlookers is huge.

Keep them active and involved.  Try to minimize any techniques or
activities where the kids are passive recipients of information.  In
geography, for example, have them draw maps and build a large
over-sized globe -- paper mache perhaps.  Keep 'em busy.  Kids are
learning machines.  They want to be busy.  Also, engage hands, eyes,
and mind simultaneously.  It is both developmentally crucial, and the
combined neurological development -- visual + neuro-muscular +
intellectual -- amplifies all of these.

For teaching reading, I recommend assigning -- or having the kids
choose from the characters -- and reading plays.  Another technique:
select a short- or medium-length story, assign one (or several
separated) pages to each student, have the students gather in groups
and help each other to decipher -- ie read -- practice, and master
their page(s), (while keeping them "scattered" so that the storyline
remains a mystery), and then have  them read their pages in order,
hearing the full story for the first time.  [Also, record the final
performance, thus creating a tangible "archive-able" accomplishment.
This adds to the reading lesson the further realization that
cooperative activity taken to completion creates tangible value.]

Applaud the doing rather than the result.  Early learning involves
lots of clumsiness and missteps (later learning, too).  If you make a
big deal about the quality of the result, a child may hesitate to jump
into an activity for fear of emotional disappointment.  Make above all
the "jumping in" the thing that generates praise and a sense of
accomplishment  Courageous and enthusiastic learners should, ideally,
embrace "failure", which is to say the early stage clumsiness with
which typically marks the start of the learning process.

Good luck to you, Sondre, and by all means check back in with us and
let us know how you and your daughter are doing.

Best, Jeff Davis

     "Everything's hard till you know how to do it."
                                      Ray Charles



From anders at aleph.se  Wed Nov  7 21:23:46 2012
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2012 21:23:46 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Gifted children
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armj9mvcwx762QduMimFDGtvNgKQf-D4DM6AUaCtR+QTxfg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALAdGNSFAN=0WFsAW23nU908M_x=7AA23DJLjxEhMPnCcGagJw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+LBAbR46CnQNVCpCGCRrTtV-1tpjKJFacscMtwx2Y05VEuCQA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQS7UP-a+Grtr521jdBJ_VXUDcGrUeBDDC44FFe6yS5dg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+LBAbTg9Dg-9WHH84oFQpbk0hjebFUYbX6wujvN36z_m7w8mA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRt9Jj9-HNsZ12UCyKPfGb5Qacv7fY4_vHA_=0BZEjczA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJrtBE0JpacGd1hKBY-SC5ViG4FSPd_MkKRgFWV5tU1ZK+vevQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNT2TdGSjRyF2bkz9P2qJKch476R53iFaNYH=eDhNUEyhQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <9e49151df1c5c3e1d9551a9d94c80d9e.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
 <CABncCQcY=0BGy3rzaeKCfguM1h9qvSbpKoFXJqFuwKzVuy=_+Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armj9mvcwx762QduMimFDGtvNgKQf-D4DM6AUaCtR+QTxfg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <509AD162.5030901@aleph.se>

On 07/11/2012 11:51, BillK wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 9:25 AM, Sondre Bjell?s  wrote:
>> Which country would be a good alternative where one would be able to get a
>> visa, permanent residency?

Hmm, practically this sounds like Scandinavia. Looks like from a PISA 
education perspective you should aim at Finland.
https://ourtimes.wordpress.com/2008/04/10/oecd-education-rankings/#science
Not sure that is a rational choice given language issues, though - 
Finnish is likely a chore to learn given its non-Germanic nature. Sweden 
also has a more extensive private school system, although the overall 
educational quality is lower than Finland (which seem to run a pure 
state school system). No real idea about Denmark.


Generally I think it is healthy to shop for countries that suit you. 
More people ought to vote with their feet. Of course, being an EU 
citizen I have it particularly easy (the free movement is a saving grace 
that outweighs a sizeable amount of the evil in Brussels). And kids 
might not understand the benefit they are gaining from seeing different 
cultures. But it is there.

-- 
Anders Sandberg,
Future of Humanity Institute
Oxford Martin School
Faculty of Philosophy
Oxford University



From max at maxmore.com  Thu Nov  8 06:26:29 2012
From: max at maxmore.com (Max More)
Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 23:26:29 -0700
Subject: [ExI] $50K Prize if You Find Way to Block Robocalls
Message-ID: <CAJX-7wV0D3OKR5CExVNh_m6HLKBqF=_H6StiQe9QVzMN3crV-A@mail.gmail.com>

I would throw in a bit extra for that! Use technology to block annoying
technology.

--Max



http://www.scientificcomputing.com/news-DS-50K-Prize-if-You-Find-Way-to-Block-Robocalls-110512.aspx?et_cid=2933257&et_rid=41413526&linkid=http%3a%2f%2fwww.scientificcomputing.com%2fnews-DS-50K-Prize-if-You-Find-Way-to-Block-Robocalls-110512.aspx
==========================================================

$50K Prize if You Find Way to Block Robocalls
By Jennifer C. Kerr, Associated Press

Those annoying prerecorded phone pitches known as robocalls aren't just
getting on the nerves of millions of consumers: The government is fed up
too, and it's turning to the public for help, offering a cash reward for
the best way to stop the unwanted sales calls.

The Federal Trade Commission, which oversees the government's do not call
list is offering a $50,000 prize for the best technical solution to block
illegal commercial robocalls.

The head of the commission's consumer protection bureau, David Vladeck,
says the FTC "is attacking illegal robocalls on all fronts, and one of the
things that we can do as a government agency is to tap into the genius and
technical expertise among the public."

Besides the money, Vladeck predicted the winner of the challenge would
become a "national hero," given the frustration consumers feel about
bothersome calls at home or on their cellphones.

The FTC logs tens of thousands of robocall complaints each month. In the
past year alone, there were more than two million complaints from people
who didn't want to be bothered by automated calls. All those complaints
raise questions about the effectiveness of the do not call list, which has
been popular with consumers. They've put more than 217 million phone
numbers on the registry since it was created in 2003.

The telemarketing industry says robocalls aren't the preferred method of
reaching consumers. Such calls are illegal unless a consumer has given a
company written permission to make them. But federal regulators have seen a
proliferation in illegal calls, and they say the source is often people
looking to scam consumers out of money.

With an autodialer, millions of calls can be blasted out in a matter of
hours, bombarding people in a struggling economy with promises of debt
assistance and cheap loans. Even if a consumer does not have a phone number
on the do not call list, robocalls are illegal. A 2009 rule specifically
banned this type of phone sales pitch without written permission.

Political robocalls and automated calls from charities, or informational
robocalls, such as an airline calling about a flight delay, are exempt from
the ban. But those exemptions are being abused too, with consumers
complaining of getting calls that begin as a legitimate call, say from a
charity or survey, but then eventually switch to an illegal telemarketing
pitch.

Not only are the calls cheap, they are hard to trace. Fraudsters use
caller-ID spoofing so that when a person tries to call back the robocaller,
they get a disconnected number or something other than the source of the
original call.

The FTC's cash prize announcement came at the end of a summit the FTC held
in Washington on robocalls with industry leaders, top federal regulators
and technology experts.

The "robocall challenge" opened to the public on October 25 and will close
January 17, 2013. The winner will be announced in April. The money will be
awarded to the person, team or small company (it must have fewer than 10
employees) that develops the best robocall-blocking technology. The FTC
says a successful entry must work, be easy to use, and be easy to implement
and operate in today's marketplace.

It's not the first time the government has looked for outside help with a
thorny problem.

The Pentagon's research agency, known as DARPA, is offering a $2 million
prize to anyone who can develop technologies that dramatically advance the
state-of-the-art in robotics. With the military increasingly called upon to
support disaster-recovery missions, more sophisticated robots are needed to
defuse explosives or clean up nuclear waste. The contest began this month,
and a winner will be selected at the end of 2014.

More information on the FTC's robocall challenge can be found on the
commission's Web site at www.ftc.gov Anyone submitting a solution would
retain intellectual property rights to the idea. The agency says it will
have the right to feature the solution's name, text description and images
on its Web site for the challenge.
*Associated Press writer Richard Lardner contributed to this report.
Copyright 2012 The Associated Press*



-- 
Max More, PhD
Strategic Philosopher
Co-editor, *The Transhumanist Reader*
President & CEO, Alcor Life Extension Foundation
7895 E. Acoma Dr # 110
Scottsdale, AZ 85260
480/905-1906 ext 113
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From sondre-list at bjellas.com  Thu Nov  8 11:36:45 2012
From: sondre-list at bjellas.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Sondre_Bjell=E5s?=)
Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2012 12:36:45 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Gifted children
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNQdJqun9arzA7w_TzM3FDoz=MQOQpyFGJSH-oUZ3BMRLw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALAdGNSFAN=0WFsAW23nU908M_x=7AA23DJLjxEhMPnCcGagJw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+LBAbR46CnQNVCpCGCRrTtV-1tpjKJFacscMtwx2Y05VEuCQA@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CALAdGNRt9Jj9-HNsZ12UCyKPfGb5Qacv7fY4_vHA_=0BZEjczA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJrtBE0JpacGd1hKBY-SC5ViG4FSPd_MkKRgFWV5tU1ZK+vevQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNT2TdGSjRyF2bkz9P2qJKch476R53iFaNYH=eDhNUEyhQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <9e49151df1c5c3e1d9551a9d94c80d9e.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
 <CABncCQcY=0BGy3rzaeKCfguM1h9qvSbpKoFXJqFuwKzVuy=_+Q@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CABncCQffbbftFcQF3BDa6nJpPHC55yHLhfiT3EkxX7VStqyJOg@mail.gmail.com>

Robot Odyssey looks awesome, have a look at this newspaper clip from 1984
with the Atari MindLink System... have we improved since then?
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=yC4EAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA35&dq=robot+odyssey&hl=en&sa=X&ei=bKAgT_3xJu-WiQfszdXaBA&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=robot%20odyssey&f=false

I'm going to see if I can develop a simple game similar to this that uses
robots and logic. Thanks for the replies everyone :-)


- Sondre


On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 6:40 PM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 1:25 AM, Sondre Bjell?s <sondre-list at bjellas.com>
> wrote:
> > We live in Norway and our daughter is still only 19+ months old, but
> we've
> > already started thinking about what we can do for her in regards to
> > schooling. Here in Norway, there are virtually no private alternatives
> other
> > than religious schools. The public schools are some of the worst in the
> > world and Norwegians score poorly in global tests.
>
> Worst in Europe, maybe.  "Worst in the world" means you're
> comparing to countries which have virtually no public schooling,
> and/or outlaw girls going to school.  It seems highly unlikely
> that Norway's schools would be nearly that bad.
>
> > Which country would be a good alternative where one would be able to get
> a
> > visa, permanent residency?
>
> I echo Bill's statement that you should seriously look at
> schools within Norway first.
>
> That said, if you're serious about changing countries - which
> suggests you have reasons other than just education - schools
> in parts of the US are really good.  Be careful which part you
> choose, but for instance, the public primary education in Palo
> Alto, California ranks among the best in the world (though
> schools in certain other parts of California, not so much) - and
> the area is generally welcoming to transhumanist mindsets.
>
> > Our daughter on the other hand, is showing incredible skills even at 19
> > months.
>
> Be careful.  Lots of parents think their children perform far, far
> beyond the level they actually perform at.  It is a natural
> cognitive bias - but it is still a bias.
>
> > She have been using the iPad since she was 3 months old, for watching
> > movies. Now she plays a lot of games, and whenever she comes across any
> > device, she'll unlock it in a second and find her favorite apps and
> games.
>
> Try getting her interested in math and logic games.  Not the
> typical "do a puzzle to get some flashy unrelated reward", but
> games where the puzzle to solve is actually related to advancing
> things.  Things like these, though they may be too advanced
> just now: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robot_Odyssey#Similar_games
>
> http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/7221/on-sets may be
> better at her age.
>
> > The norm here in Norway is to put kids
> > in kinder-garden at 1 year of age, we felt that was to early and we
> thought
> > we could do better ourselves.
>
> Kindergarten in the US starts at 5.  See
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_the_United_States
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>



-- 
Sondre Bjell?s
http://www.sondreb.com/
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From rahmans at me.com  Thu Nov  8 14:40:27 2012
From: rahmans at me.com (Omar Rahman)
Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2012 15:40:27 +0100
Subject: [ExI]  Gifted children
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1352376002.16375.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.1.1352376002.16375.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <0DF08CEF-EA69-4A75-AFA0-08456B113BBF@me.com>


Sondre,

Probably the last thing a Norwegian wants to hear, but, try Finland. Finland has some of the best and most unconventional schools in the world.

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/people-places/Why-Are-Finlands-Schools-Successful.html
http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/12/what-americans-keep-ignoring-about-finlands-school-success/250564/

Of particular note from the Atlantic article: "In fact, since academic excellence wasn't a particular priority on the Finnish to-do list, when Finland's students scored so high on the first PISA survey in 2001, many Finns thought the results must be a mistake. But subsequent PISA tests confirmed that Finland -- unlike, say, very similar countries such as Norway -- was producing academic excellence through its particular policy focus on equity."

They are 'over the top' socialised schools which turn many educational paradigms on their heads.

Regards,

Omar Rahman



> If we get our first proper right-wing government in the next election, the
> situation might improve in the coming years, but I have my doubts. What I
> do think will happen, is advances to online schooling and education. With
> kids growing up in rural places who learn a lot from computers (and
> smartphones) from when they are young, there should probably be a decent
> market to fulfill with online classrooms. Just think about the amount of
> kids growing up in poor families and conditions around the world, they can
> still get hold of cheap computers and smartphones and kick-start their own
> educations wherever they are. But it can only take you so far...
> 
> A friend of mine was gifted as a child. He was put in a class with only
> troubled kids. I can promise you, it was not good for him ;-)
> 
> Thanks,
> Sondre
> 
> 
> On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 12:51 PM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 9:25 AM, Sondre Bjell?s  wrote:
>>> We live in Norway and our daughter is still only 19+ months old, but
>> we've
>>> already started thinking about what we can do for her in regards to
>>> schooling. Here in Norway, there are virtually no private alternatives
>> other
>>> than religious schools. The public schools are some of the worst in the
>>> world and Norwegians score poorly in global tests.
>>> 
>>> Which country would be a good alternative where one would be able to get
>> a
>>> visa, permanent residency?
>>> 
>> <snip>
>>> 
>>> I'm sorry for ranting on like this, but my concern is that she will be
>>> extremely bored at school when she's 6 as I'm sure she will be ahead of
>> the
>>> average. Or, she might not, we love her anyhow! :-) Wouldn't want to
>>> home-school her, she would be better off with lots of other kids around.
>>> What would your suggestions be as parents on your own?
>>> 
>> 
>> Moving to a different country is not a trivial task. I'd spend more
>> time investigating Norway and Sweden educational possibilities. It may
>> only mean moving nearer a better school in Norway. You just need to
>> find it.
>> 
>> Remember - you are not alone. There must be hundreds (at least) gifted
>> children in Norway /Sweden.
>> Use the web and contacts to find out what other parents are doing, -
>> clubs, societies, special schools, advanced courses, etc.
>> 
>> Best wishes, BillK

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From atymes at gmail.com  Thu Nov  8 17:25:24 2012
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2012 09:25:24 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Gifted children
In-Reply-To: <CABncCQffbbftFcQF3BDa6nJpPHC55yHLhfiT3EkxX7VStqyJOg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALAdGNSFAN=0WFsAW23nU908M_x=7AA23DJLjxEhMPnCcGagJw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+LBAbR46CnQNVCpCGCRrTtV-1tpjKJFacscMtwx2Y05VEuCQA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQS7UP-a+Grtr521jdBJ_VXUDcGrUeBDDC44FFe6yS5dg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+LBAbTg9Dg-9WHH84oFQpbk0hjebFUYbX6wujvN36z_m7w8mA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRt9Jj9-HNsZ12UCyKPfGb5Qacv7fY4_vHA_=0BZEjczA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJrtBE0JpacGd1hKBY-SC5ViG4FSPd_MkKRgFWV5tU1ZK+vevQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNT2TdGSjRyF2bkz9P2qJKch476R53iFaNYH=eDhNUEyhQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <9e49151df1c5c3e1d9551a9d94c80d9e.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
 <CABncCQcY=0BGy3rzaeKCfguM1h9qvSbpKoFXJqFuwKzVuy=_+Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQdJqun9arzA7w_TzM3FDoz=MQOQpyFGJSH-oUZ3BMRLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABncCQffbbftFcQF3BDa6nJpPHC55yHLhfiT3EkxX7VStqyJOg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNQrGKea2dgBF0E2YC7-1yt2yrZRdMEUWBxpePEcqLijkg@mail.gmail.com>

There are quite a few games like this.  Rather than just run off
and make your own, a better approach would be to see what
has already been developed, see where they fall short, and use
that knowledge to make something better.

On Thu, Nov 8, 2012 at 3:36 AM, Sondre Bjell?s <sondre-list at bjellas.com> wrote:
> Robot Odyssey looks awesome, have a look at this newspaper clip from 1984
> with the Atari MindLink System... have we improved since then?
> http://books.google.com.au/books?id=yC4EAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA35&dq=robot+odyssey&hl=en&sa=X&ei=bKAgT_3xJu-WiQfszdXaBA&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=robot%20odyssey&f=false
>
> I'm going to see if I can develop a simple game similar to this that uses
> robots and logic. Thanks for the replies everyone :-)
>
>
> - Sondre
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 6:40 PM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 1:25 AM, Sondre Bjell?s <sondre-list at bjellas.com>
>> wrote:
>> > We live in Norway and our daughter is still only 19+ months old, but
>> > we've
>> > already started thinking about what we can do for her in regards to
>> > schooling. Here in Norway, there are virtually no private alternatives
>> > other
>> > than religious schools. The public schools are some of the worst in the
>> > world and Norwegians score poorly in global tests.
>>
>> Worst in Europe, maybe.  "Worst in the world" means you're
>> comparing to countries which have virtually no public schooling,
>> and/or outlaw girls going to school.  It seems highly unlikely
>> that Norway's schools would be nearly that bad.
>>
>> > Which country would be a good alternative where one would be able to get
>> > a
>> > visa, permanent residency?
>>
>> I echo Bill's statement that you should seriously look at
>> schools within Norway first.
>>
>> That said, if you're serious about changing countries - which
>> suggests you have reasons other than just education - schools
>> in parts of the US are really good.  Be careful which part you
>> choose, but for instance, the public primary education in Palo
>> Alto, California ranks among the best in the world (though
>> schools in certain other parts of California, not so much) - and
>> the area is generally welcoming to transhumanist mindsets.
>>
>> > Our daughter on the other hand, is showing incredible skills even at 19
>> > months.
>>
>> Be careful.  Lots of parents think their children perform far, far
>> beyond the level they actually perform at.  It is a natural
>> cognitive bias - but it is still a bias.
>>
>> > She have been using the iPad since she was 3 months old, for watching
>> > movies. Now she plays a lot of games, and whenever she comes across any
>> > device, she'll unlock it in a second and find her favorite apps and
>> > games.
>>
>> Try getting her interested in math and logic games.  Not the
>> typical "do a puzzle to get some flashy unrelated reward", but
>> games where the puzzle to solve is actually related to advancing
>> things.  Things like these, though they may be too advanced
>> just now: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robot_Odyssey#Similar_games
>>
>> http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/7221/on-sets may be
>> better at her age.
>>
>> > The norm here in Norway is to put kids
>> > in kinder-garden at 1 year of age, we felt that was to early and we
>> > thought
>> > we could do better ourselves.
>>
>> Kindergarten in the US starts at 5.  See
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_the_United_States
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
>
>
> --
> Sondre Bjell?s
> http://www.sondreb.com/
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>



From anders at aleph.se  Thu Nov  8 22:34:54 2012
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2012 22:34:54 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Gifted children
In-Reply-To: <0DF08CEF-EA69-4A75-AFA0-08456B113BBF@me.com>
References: <mailman.1.1352376002.16375.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <0DF08CEF-EA69-4A75-AFA0-08456B113BBF@me.com>
Message-ID: <509C338E.5020909@aleph.se>

On 08/11/2012 14:40, Omar Rahman wrote:
>
> They are 'over the top' socialised schools which turn many educational 
> paradigms on their heads.

Well, the strange thing is that they are not *that* different from the 
Swedish and Norwegian socialised schools. But our countries do worse on 
Pisa for some reason (still in the top quartile, though). I suspect the 
real difference might exist in motivation and social setting: if Finnish 
pupils are really motivated to learn they will have better results.

-- 
Anders Sandberg,
Future of Humanity Institute
Oxford Martin School
Faculty of Philosophy
Oxford University

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From aleksei at iki.fi  Fri Nov  9 01:48:21 2012
From: aleksei at iki.fi (Aleksei Riikonen)
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2012 03:48:21 +0200
Subject: [ExI] How PISA surveys systematically overestimate Finland
Message-ID: <CAF=HMECPiD2zUGtqD3x9vnnUwYLy4dUGbOXdHwvWnthPGWBRdQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Nov 9, 2012 at 12:34 AM, Anders Sandberg <anders at aleph.se> wrote:
> On 08/11/2012 14:40, Omar Rahman wrote:
>
>> They are 'over the top' socialised schools which turn many educational
>> paradigms on their heads.
>
> Well, the strange thing is that they are not *that* different from the
> Swedish and Norwegian socialised schools. But our countries do worse
> on Pisa for some reason (still in the top quartile, though).

Yes, you are right, our school system here in Finland is very similar
to the other Nordic countries, and actually it has been shown that
PISA surveys systematically overestimate the quality of Finnish
schools, though for some reason I've never seen this rather conclusive
analysis discussed anywhere in mainstream media, either here in
Finland or elsewhere:

http://finnish-and-pisa.blogspot.fi/

It boils down to the Finnish language having certain properties which
cause the questions in PISA surveys to be easier when phrased in
Finnish.

This explanation is extremely strongly supported by the fact that we
also have a Swedish-speaking minority and Swedish-speaking schools in
Finland, and those schools get lower scores than the Finnish-speaking
schools (similar scores as other Nordic countries), despite them being
part of the exact same school system and the Swedish-speaking minority
here actually having a *better* social background than the Finnish
majority (Finland used to be part of Sweden, back then only the
peasants spoke Finnish, and even today Swedish is "a language of the
upper class" here).

-- 
Aleksei Riikonen - http://www.iki.fi/aleksei


From pharos at gmail.com  Fri Nov  9 08:44:28 2012
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2012 08:44:28 +0000
Subject: [ExI] How PISA surveys systematically overestimate Finland
In-Reply-To: <CAF=HMECPiD2zUGtqD3x9vnnUwYLy4dUGbOXdHwvWnthPGWBRdQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAF=HMECPiD2zUGtqD3x9vnnUwYLy4dUGbOXdHwvWnthPGWBRdQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armgDsyxb9kQbjavTLhF5PEBcdY517=hB=haNnpg15Euodw@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Nov 9, 2012 at 1:48 AM, Aleksei Riikonen  wrote:
> Yes, you are right, our school system here in Finland is very similar
> to the other Nordic countries, and actually it has been shown that
> PISA surveys systematically overestimate the quality of Finnish
> schools, though for some reason I've never seen this rather conclusive
> analysis discussed anywhere in mainstream media, either here in
> Finland or elsewhere:
>
> http://finnish-and-pisa.blogspot.fi/
>
> It boils down to the Finnish language having certain properties which
> cause the questions in PISA surveys to be easier when phrased in
> Finnish.
>


It is fascinating speculation, but comparing countries systems of
education is a very complex process. As indeed, comparing health
stats, or 'quality of life'.
What about Chinese education, where they have to learn thousands of
ideograms? They are regarded as the best in the world. Ambition,
determination to succeed, parental support and excellent teachers seem
to be significant.

As well as language, Finnish society has some unique characteristics.
e.g.
Finland has one of the lowest rates of poverty in the world, an
education and reading centered culture and very involved parents.
About 30% of Finland's students can read before starting school.
Another 43% have basic reading skills already in place. Finnish
schools quickly intervene when students start to fall behind. They
provide a lot of tutoring to help students catch up.
Finnish teachers are highly respected. Their status level is similar
to that of doctors. Only 10% of all applicants for teacher training
programs are accepted each year. So, Finland can easily choose the
best and brightest to enter teaching. And their teacher training
program is excellent.

PISA stats include all schools. So if a nation has a mixture of good
and bad schools it will have a lower average grade. Systems like those
in Finland try to ensure that there are no 'bad' schools to lower
their average.

So I am not convinced by the language argument. It may be a factor,
but I think the society ambitions and the system are more important.
If the nation has a drive to get educated and succeed, it will do
well.


BillK


From aleksei at iki.fi  Fri Nov  9 10:25:42 2012
From: aleksei at iki.fi (Aleksei Riikonen)
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2012 12:25:42 +0200
Subject: [ExI] How PISA surveys systematically overestimate Finland
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armgDsyxb9kQbjavTLhF5PEBcdY517=hB=haNnpg15Euodw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAF=HMECPiD2zUGtqD3x9vnnUwYLy4dUGbOXdHwvWnthPGWBRdQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armgDsyxb9kQbjavTLhF5PEBcdY517=hB=haNnpg15Euodw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAF=HMEDhLecuj1S33_w5cSffkP1tf3xROGf52UfYYi=jAfSm0A@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Nov 9, 2012 at 10:44 AM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> About 30% of Finland's students can read before starting school.
> Another 43% have basic reading skills already in place.

Regarding this stat, it needs to be taken into account that kids don't
start school until the year they turn 7 years old. Many are taught to
read before that in what Finland still counts as kindergarten, while
at many other countries the education at that point counts as starting
school.

-- 
Aleksei Riikonen - http://www.iki.fi/aleksei


From mbb386 at main.nc.us  Fri Nov  9 11:50:36 2012
From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB)
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2012 06:50:36 -0500
Subject: [ExI] How PISA surveys systematically overestimate Finland
In-Reply-To: <CAF=HMECPiD2zUGtqD3x9vnnUwYLy4dUGbOXdHwvWnthPGWBRdQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAF=HMECPiD2zUGtqD3x9vnnUwYLy4dUGbOXdHwvWnthPGWBRdQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0db5b6f39fe9b2b69dcf19269eae8456.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>


> http://finnish-and-pisa.blogspot.fi/
>
> It boils down to the Finnish language having certain
> properties which
> cause the questions in PISA surveys to be easier when
> phrased in
> Finnish.
>

This was *most* interesting reading!  Thank you for the
link. My son is dyslexic, my brother, and now my brother's
younger grandson... I will forward the link.

Regards,
MB



From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Fri Nov  9 12:59:59 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2012 13:59:59 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Gifted children
In-Reply-To: <CAJrtBE0JpacGd1hKBY-SC5ViG4FSPd_MkKRgFWV5tU1ZK+vevQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALAdGNSFAN=0WFsAW23nU908M_x=7AA23DJLjxEhMPnCcGagJw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+LBAbR46CnQNVCpCGCRrTtV-1tpjKJFacscMtwx2Y05VEuCQA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQS7UP-a+Grtr521jdBJ_VXUDcGrUeBDDC44FFe6yS5dg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+LBAbTg9Dg-9WHH84oFQpbk0hjebFUYbX6wujvN36z_m7w8mA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRt9Jj9-HNsZ12UCyKPfGb5Qacv7fY4_vHA_=0BZEjczA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJrtBE0JpacGd1hKBY-SC5ViG4FSPd_MkKRgFWV5tU1ZK+vevQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a7DRFzrdv9JEHioq-+k2xxcZHs_H=GF+ygwqi6DuirsQw@mail.gmail.com>

On 6 November 2012 20:32, PJ Manney <pjmanney at gmail.com> wrote:

> There are many programs that track and monitor gifted children
> nationwide, both civilian and government operated.
>

That's interesting, because to the best of my knowledge such programmes
still exist only in the US and in Israel, perhaps Japan.

OTOH, there remains the issue of what "gifted" may mean. I suppose that
musical geniuses, or idiots savant able to perform extreme arithmetics in
their mind, may not of much interest to, say, the armed forces or to large
corporations.

Moreover, the validation of IQ tests as a way to measure some
relevantly-defined kind of "intelligence" has always depended in my
understanding on the statistically predictive power of the tests as to
future or current  social success of the tested individuals, of course all
other things being equal.

If we assume that after all very high IQ scores need not be really
correlated with that, because for instance as suggested by James a high IQ
individual may in average lack the motivation to perform in the social
arena, this begs the question of what IQ tests really measure, and in
whether one's performance in those tests may tell us something about
anything else than the one's performance in those tests.

For instance, it is commonly believed that, while average IQ obviously
remains 100 by definition, the average absolute performance in the tests is
improving with each subsequent generation.

Now, if we take for instance a given society's ability to produce
technoscientific and cultural breakthroughs, as recently discussed it is
very debatable that our supposedly higher performance in IQ tests is
translating into overall increased innovation and creativity in comparison
with, say, the Europe of our grand-fathers...

I developed a little more in depth my views on the subject, touching by the
way the Watson scandal, here <http://www.biopolitix.com>.

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Fri Nov  9 13:17:10 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2012 14:17:10 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Gifted children
In-Reply-To: <CABncCQcY=0BGy3rzaeKCfguM1h9qvSbpKoFXJqFuwKzVuy=_+Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALAdGNSFAN=0WFsAW23nU908M_x=7AA23DJLjxEhMPnCcGagJw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+LBAbR46CnQNVCpCGCRrTtV-1tpjKJFacscMtwx2Y05VEuCQA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQS7UP-a+Grtr521jdBJ_VXUDcGrUeBDDC44FFe6yS5dg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+LBAbTg9Dg-9WHH84oFQpbk0hjebFUYbX6wujvN36z_m7w8mA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRt9Jj9-HNsZ12UCyKPfGb5Qacv7fY4_vHA_=0BZEjczA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJrtBE0JpacGd1hKBY-SC5ViG4FSPd_MkKRgFWV5tU1ZK+vevQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNT2TdGSjRyF2bkz9P2qJKch476R53iFaNYH=eDhNUEyhQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <9e49151df1c5c3e1d9551a9d94c80d9e.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
 <CABncCQcY=0BGy3rzaeKCfguM1h9qvSbpKoFXJqFuwKzVuy=_+Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a7F=sTidnu8RDRWnyE1if8i4dg4pNLeJrBxY3R7K7e-Lg@mail.gmail.com>

On 7 November 2012 10:25, Sondre Bjell?s <sondre-list at bjellas.com> wrote:

> I have a general question regarding school, or the lack of school options:
>
> We live in Norway and our daughter is still only 19+ months old, but we've
> already started thinking about what we can do for her in regards to
> schooling. Here in Norway, there are virtually no private alternatives
> other than religious schools. The public schools are some of the worst in
> the world and Norwegians score poorly in global tests.
>

Hey, I hear that Finland is top of the list, it is close, and Swedish - no,
do not tell me that it is a different language... :-) - is one of the two
official idioms of the country.

You do not get mountains to speak of, but to get better mountains a
Norvegian would have to move to Italy, something I do not really recommend.
:-)

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Fri Nov  9 15:15:51 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2012 16:15:51 +0100
Subject: [ExI] How PISA surveys systematically overestimate Finland
In-Reply-To: <CAF=HMECPiD2zUGtqD3x9vnnUwYLy4dUGbOXdHwvWnthPGWBRdQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAF=HMECPiD2zUGtqD3x9vnnUwYLy4dUGbOXdHwvWnthPGWBRdQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a6JrrVLQvLMqVFxiKaHuaSbObsNisyuQPCu2xAVzpOqVw@mail.gmail.com>

On 9 November 2012 02:48, Aleksei Riikonen <aleksei at iki.fi> wrote:

> http://finnish-and-pisa.blogspot.fi/
>
> It boils down to the Finnish language having certain properties which
> cause the questions in PISA surveys to be easier when phrased in
> Finnish.
>

Very interesting. It reminds me of stories about hindi and other
sanskrit-derived languages as especially conducive to good programming
habits.

OTOH, it is true that in Italian while the orthography and spelling are
fantastically easy, we have a not-so transparent lexicon (even though
probably more transparent than English, especially for Latin-derived
stems); but German would appear to share both features. Heck, Heidegger,
while being by no means an "easy" philosopher,  is himself an endless game
with lexicon transparency... Morevoer, shouldn't Japanese (three alphabets
plus a Chinese-derived ideographic system, and two radically different ways
to pronounce the same ideograms/words!) find themselves at the opposite end
of the spectrum?

Lastly, I was glad to hear that in Finland "Adventurous approaches (such as
starting with words or sentences as wholes) are not used", being myself a
survivor of such wildly posthumanist alternative educational methods.

I had to learn at once to write "oca" (goose) on my first school day
without having learned O, C and A first, and the fact that I still remember
that might well mean that even if I do not really realise it, my subsequent
intellectual development was irrimediably damaged by the trauma. :-)

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From bbenzai at yahoo.com  Sat Nov 10 16:28:37 2012
From: bbenzai at yahoo.com (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2012 08:28:37 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ExI] How PISA surveys systematically overestimate Finland
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1352548802.2405.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <1352564917.831.YahooMailClassic@web114405.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

Stefano Vaj <stefano.vaj at gmail.com> wrote:

<snp>

> I had to learn at once to write "oca" (goose) on my first
> school day
> without having learned O, C and A first, and the fact that I
> still remember
> that might well mean that even if I do not really realise
> it, my subsequent
> intellectual development was irrimediably damaged by the
> trauma. :-)

It certainly seems to have damaged your ability to spell words like "irremediably"  ;>>

Still, I shouldn't criticise.  As the olde joak goes:

What do you call someone who can speak 2 languages?
Bilingual.

What do you call someone who can speak 3 languages?
Trilingual.

What do you call someone who can speak 1 language?
English.


Ben Zaiboc



From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Sat Nov 10 16:53:00 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2012 17:53:00 +0100
Subject: [ExI] How PISA surveys systematically overestimate Finland
In-Reply-To: <1352564917.831.YahooMailClassic@web114405.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.1.1352548802.2405.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <1352564917.831.YahooMailClassic@web114405.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a6aVvH_eh9fOLL93W9YX3JKNG73egZ--RAkhjPhbk_2oA@mail.gmail.com>

On 10 November 2012 17:28, Ben Zaiboc <bbenzai at yahoo.com> wrote:

> It certainly seems to have damaged your ability to spell words like
> "irremediably"  ;>>
>

Or rather my ability to type... :-)

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From spike66 at att.net  Sun Nov 11 16:07:32 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2012 08:07:32 -0800
Subject: [ExI] alzheimers and attitudes about the future
Message-ID: <008101cdc026$aa610e30$ff232a90$@att.net>

 

OK we know that if an Alzheimer's patient exercises the hell outta their
brains, and works against it, there seems to be some positive effect.  Of
course it is difficult to quantify, so the best source of info is to talk to
the people who work at the AD facility.  If you have not already accepted my
challenge to visit one, and you do now, ask them about that please.  The
brain exercise seems to be waaay more effective than the paltry and
apparently useless medications we have.  

 

I met a bunch of AD patients in the last few days and an idea occurred to
me.  Perhaps those people who appear to be in the worst shape were those who
didn't spend time thinking about the future, even before they were AD
patients.  The local AD facility is set up to relive the past, with stuff
such as big bands music, or 40s R&B, maybe some Elvis and such, but it is
definitely a place for those who are more comfortable in the far-off past
than thinking about anything in the future.  We can suppose this is
completely understandable.

 

So then, what if pondering the future is a good mind exercise?  I think it
is.  I work like all hell at it, doing the MBrain calcs and such, pondering
the long term equilibrium future of thought, for instance.  So we now have
the transhumanist movement in general that has been around for over thirty
years, and then Extropian subset of that for over 20, so we should have some
data on what happens to people as they get really old.  Does a transhumanist
attitude help delay onset of Alzheimers?  Anyone know if any of our ranks
developed AD?  If so, what was their attitude towards futurism?  We have had
several deaths from causes other than AD, but I know of none who developed
AD.  Perhaps we should ask the question again in twenty years?  What I am
looking for is if an ExI or H+ attitude lost enthusiasm for futurism and
dynamic optimism and BESTDOITSO after developing Alzheimers.

 

Speculations welcome.

 

spike

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From spike66 at att.net  Sun Nov 11 17:17:03 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2012 09:17:03 -0800
Subject: [ExI] exi theme song
Message-ID: <008f01cdc030$5e717730$1b546590$@att.net>

 

We should have an extropians theme song.  I propose Fleetwood Mac's Don't
Stop.  I suggest this not only because I have had a desperate crush on
Christine McVie since my first hormone surge, but because that particular
song is so adaptable to those who spend a lot of time thinking about the
future.  Read the words and listen to it, and feel free to counter-suggest.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8arvEzHsA8

Fleetwood Mac Don't Stop Lyrics

Written by Christine McVie. 

If you wake up and don't want to smile,
If it takes just a little while,
Open your eyes and look at the day,
You'll see things in a different way.

Don't stop, thinking about tomorrow,
Don't stop, it'll soon be here,
It'll be, better than before,
Yesterday's gone, yesterday's gone.

Why not think about times to come,
And not about the things that you've done,
If your life was bad to you,
Just think what tomorrow will do.

Don't stop, thinking about tomorrow,
Don't stop, it'll soon be here,
It'll be, better than before,
Yesterday's gone, yesterday's gone.

All I want is to see you smile,
If it takes just a little while,
I know you don't believe that it's true,
I never meant any harm to you.

Don't stop, thinking about tomorrow,
Don't stop, it'll soon be here,
It'll be, better than before,
Yesterday's gone, yesterday's gone.

Don't you look back,
Don't you look back.

 

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From spike66 at att.net  Sun Nov 11 17:26:12 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2012 09:26:12 -0800
Subject: [ExI] californias don't know how to drive in the snow
Message-ID: <000601cdc031$a5a72ea0$f0f58be0$@att.net>

 

I flew in to Denver from Orlando yesterday in a snowstorm at about 530 pm.
The landing was rather unique, because the pilot came in steep and hot,
which is consistent with SOP when there is weather.  But I noticed the pilot
didn't get on the brakes.  She used only thrust reversers, which aren't all
that enthusiastic on a 737, so the landing roll was the longest I recall
ever having experienced.  She never did get on the brakes, with about an
inch of snow on the runway.  We went all the way down to the end of the
runway and there were red and blue blinkety light all over the place.  Today
I found out what it was, further evidence that California drivers screw up
the first time two snowflakes fall together:

 

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/11/11/southwest-airlines-plane-slides-off-tax
iway-at-denver-international-airport/?test=latestnews

 

spike

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From brent.allsop at canonizer.com  Sun Nov 11 18:41:09 2012
From: brent.allsop at canonizer.com (Brent Allsop)
Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2012 11:41:09 -0700
Subject: [ExI] exi theme song
In-Reply-To: <008f01cdc030$5e717730$1b546590$@att.net>
References: <008f01cdc030$5e717730$1b546590$@att.net>
Message-ID: <509FF145.4020803@canonizer.com>


Hi Spike,

Yea, I'd vote for that one.

I don't like most country, so might not vote for this one, but this 
country song is an exception for me:

Brad Paisley's "Welcome to the Future":
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0Yg9wjctRw

Love the look on that little guy's face at 4:53!

Any other candidates out there?

Brent Allsop



On 11/11/2012 10:17 AM, spike wrote:
>
> *We should have an extropians theme song.  I propose Fleetwood Mac's 
> Don't Stop.  I suggest this not only because I have had a desperate 
> crush on Christine McVie since my first hormone surge, but because 
> that particular song is so adaptable to those who spend a lot of time 
> thinking about the future.  Read the words and listen to it, and feel 
> free to counter-suggest.*
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8arvEzHsA8
>
> *Fleetwood Mac Don't Stop Lyrics*
>
> Written by Christine McVie.
>
> If you wake up and don't want to smile,
> If it takes just a little while,
> Open your eyes and look at the day,
> You'll see things in a different way.
>
> Don't stop, thinking about tomorrow,
> Don't stop, it'll soon be here,
> It'll be, better than before,
> Yesterday's gone, yesterday's gone.
>
> Why not think about times to come,
> And not about the things that you've done,
> If your life was bad to you,
> Just think what tomorrow will do.
>
> Don't stop, thinking about tomorrow,
> Don't stop, it'll soon be here,
> It'll be, better than before,
> Yesterday's gone, yesterday's gone.
>
> All I want is to see you smile,
> If it takes just a little while,
> I know you don't believe that it's true,
> I never meant any harm to you.
>
> Don't stop, thinking about tomorrow,
> Don't stop, it'll soon be here,
> It'll be, better than before,
> Yesterday's gone, yesterday's gone.
>
> Don't you look back,
> Don't you look back.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

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From pharos at gmail.com  Sun Nov 11 20:19:25 2012
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2012 20:19:25 +0000
Subject: [ExI] alzheimers and attitudes about the future
In-Reply-To: <008101cdc026$aa610e30$ff232a90$@att.net>
References: <008101cdc026$aa610e30$ff232a90$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAL_armhLrt46=U9VdSPEhkCJvytAbR2Vs=J-cXKcsS8Zn89PkA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 4:07 PM, spike wrote:
> OK we know that if an Alzheimer?s patient exercises the hell outta their
> brains, and works against it, there seems to be some positive effect.  Of
> course it is difficult to quantify, so the best source of info is to talk to
> the people who work at the AD facility.  If you have not already accepted my
> challenge to visit one, and you do now, ask them about that please.  The
> brain exercise seems to be waaay more effective than the paltry and
> apparently useless medications we have.
>

I doubt that brain exercises have much effect once the disease kicks
in. There is some evidence that brain exercise can delay the onset to
some extent, but then the disease progresses faster once deterioration
starts. For example, people with brain challenging careers tend to be
older when they get Alzheimers.
<http://www.webmd.com/alzheimers/guide/preventing-dementia-brain-exercises>

People caring for Alzheimers patients snatch at any slight indications
of improvement. I know, I've been through it myself. Alzheimer
patients vary so much day to day, moment to moment, that it is easy to
convince yourself that there are signs of improvement. But false hopes
are torture.


>
> So then, what if pondering the future is a good mind exercise?  I think it
> is.  I work like all hell at it, doing the MBrain calcs and such, pondering
> the long term equilibrium future of thought, for instance.  So we now have
> the transhumanist movement in general that has been around for over thirty
> years, and then Extropian subset of that for over 20, so we should have some
> data on what happens to people as they get really old.  Does a transhumanist
> attitude help delay onset of Alzheimers?  Anyone know if any of our ranks
> developed AD?  If so, what was their attitude towards futurism?  We have had
> several deaths from causes other than AD, but I know of none who developed
> AD.  Perhaps we should ask the question again in twenty years?  What I am
> looking for is if an ExI or H+ attitude lost enthusiasm for futurism and
> dynamic optimism and BESTDOITSO after developing Alzheimers.
>
>

There are some people with Alzheimers that I would consider futurists.
Terry Pratchett diagnosed at 59
Gerry Anderson diagnosed at 81

I doubt if just reading SF or chatting about the future is much help.
As above, if you have a trade that exercises you mentally every day,
then there is some indication that the onset can be postponed. But,
there is also the suggestion that a well exercised brain can cover up
and cope with the initial symptoms. This means that when the disease
takes over the collapse appears to be more rapid because the patient
goes straight into full Alzheimers.

Sorry to be so depressing. But it is a terrible disease.


BillK



From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Sun Nov 11 20:38:58 2012
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2012 12:38:58 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Report on space business
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB6Xh1DgTt=aMT-769vMsMSB1axxGii68h0CiB_dDf6B1A@mail.gmail.com>

Last Thursday I gave a talk at the 3rd Space Word conference in
Frankfurt on power satellites, how to build them with laser propulsion
to get the cost down and how you build the first laser at GEO with
Skylon. (I can send the power point slides I used if someone wants
them.)

I was impressed with the people who showed up.  There is another world
out there.  They speak English (more or less) as a common language.  I
don't think I ran into anyone who did not appreciate the importance of
high exhaust velocity as the way to get the payload up and the cost
down.  That's unlike some conferences in the US where it's hard to
find anyone who understands the rocket equation.

Friday I visited Reaction Engines.  Delightful experience meeting Alan
Bond and Richard Varvill, the key technical guys.  They have (and I
saw) the precooler for the SABRE engines working.  They extract a GW
of heat from entering ram air and drop the temperature to -150 deg,
making it possible to compress the air to rocket chamber pressure with
a low tech turbine.  Miles of tiny tubes in each one, and they *don't
leak.*

I brought them the China, India, power sat news which they had not heard of yet.

^^^^^^^^

Besides briefing the 82-year-old Kalam about its recent mission to
send three astronauts, including China's first woman to space, CAST
officials have shown "great interest" in partnering the mission with
international collaboration for Space based Solar Power initiative,
said V Ponraj, a scientist who is part of Kalam's delegation.

"Wu Yansheng, President of CAST has said his organisation is very much
interested to collaborate with India and ISRO on the space mission and
would like to establish a formal initiative from both the nations," he
said in a statement.

"Kalam assured, certainly he will take up this interest to the
Government of India and ISRO, so that a hard cooperation and
collaboration between ISRO, DRDO and CAST is realised on one of the
great mission, may be Space-based Solar Power initiative so that both
India and China can work for long term association with proper funding
along with other willing space faring nations to bring space solar
power to earth," the statement said.

"Such a mission will be a great example for the entire world and will
bring peace and prosperity to the both the nations as well as to the
world," it said.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^

http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2012-11-02/india/34877401_1_space-solar-power-space-collaboration-v-ponraj

It's difficult to decide exactly what is going on there.

Unlike Elon (who has stated he hates the power sat concept), Reaction
Engines has long been upfront that their vehicle (Skylon) is well
matched to the massive payload capacity needed for power satellites.

Actually, in terms of SpaceX, Elon is right.  Chemical vertical
takeoff rockets are not just suitable for power sats.

Keith


From pharos at gmail.com  Sun Nov 11 22:02:53 2012
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2012 22:02:53 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Report on space business
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB6Xh1DgTt=aMT-769vMsMSB1axxGii68h0CiB_dDf6B1A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB6Xh1DgTt=aMT-769vMsMSB1axxGii68h0CiB_dDf6B1A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armiQn-z3N+vN0-kkdqgS4kgtO_OCVU9mV+dv14HiRGtkLA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 8:38 PM, Keith Henson wrote:
> Last Thursday I gave a talk at the 3rd Space Word conference in
> Frankfurt on power satellites, how to build them with laser propulsion
> to get the cost down and how you build the first laser at GEO with
> Skylon. (I can send the power point slides I used if someone wants
> them.)
>
> I was impressed with the people who showed up.  There is another world
> out there.  They speak English (more or less) as a common language.  I
> don't think I ran into anyone who did not appreciate the importance of
> high exhaust velocity as the way to get the payload up and the cost
> down.  That's unlike some conferences in the US where it's hard to
> find anyone who understands the rocket equation.
>
> Friday I visited Reaction Engines.  Delightful experience meeting Alan
> Bond and Richard Varvill, the key technical guys.  They have (and I
> saw) the precooler for the SABRE engines working.  They extract a GW
> of heat from entering ram air and drop the temperature to -150 deg,
> making it possible to compress the air to rocket chamber pressure with
> a low tech turbine.  Miles of tiny tubes in each one, and they *don't
> leak.*
>


BBC tv did a 50 mins documentary about Reaction Engines in Sept 2012.
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZ_a21fPkYM>



BillK


From spike66 at att.net  Mon Nov 12 03:55:30 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2012 19:55:30 -0800
Subject: [ExI] exi theme song
In-Reply-To: <509FF145.4020803@canonizer.com>
References: <008f01cdc030$5e717730$1b546590$@att.net>
 <509FF145.4020803@canonizer.com>
Message-ID: <005301cdc089$8fd8b910$af8a2b30$@att.net>

 

 

>>.On 11/11/2012 10:17 AM, spike wrote:

 

>>.We should have an extropians theme song.  I propose Fleetwood Mac's Don't
Stop. 

 

From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Brent Allsop
Subject: Re: [ExI] exi theme song

 


Hi Spike,

>.Brad Paisley's "Welcome to the Future":
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0Yg9wjctRw




 

 

EXCELLENT!  I like Brad Paisley.  Keep in mind that any verses can be
rewritten or added to.  spike

 

 

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From joshjob42 at gmail.com  Mon Nov 12 04:53:57 2012
From: joshjob42 at gmail.com (Joshua Job)
Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2012 20:53:57 -0800
Subject: [ExI] exi theme song
In-Reply-To: <005301cdc089$8fd8b910$af8a2b30$@att.net>
References: <008f01cdc030$5e717730$1b546590$@att.net>
 <509FF145.4020803@canonizer.com>
 <005301cdc089$8fd8b910$af8a2b30$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAEtn_z19bJY5erzgARyOGCj7xOcAN+QKrJZNFaF-bO8Aa7dgag@mail.gmail.com>

I love this one. It's a little hokey and old-fashioned, but great
nevertheless.

And I love "Welcome to the Future" too.

Make Way For Tomorrow Today <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3cJ1onJkig>

Yeah, it's from Iron Man 2, but it always cheers me up.
-Joshua Job.

On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 7:55 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> >>?On 11/11/2012 10:17 AM, spike wrote:****
>
>  ****
>
> *>>?We should have an extropians theme song.  I propose Fleetwood Mac?s
> Don?t Stop? *****
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:
> extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] *On Behalf Of *Brent Allsop
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] exi theme song****
>
> ** **
>
>
> Hi Spike,
>
> >?Brad Paisley's "Welcome to the Future":
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0Yg9wjctRw
>
>
> ****
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> EXCELLENT!  I like Brad Paisley.  Keep in mind that any verses can be
> rewritten or added to.  spike****
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>


-- 
-Joshua Job
joshjob42 at gmail.com
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Mon Nov 12 06:31:18 2012
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2012 23:31:18 -0700
Subject: [ExI] exi theme song
In-Reply-To: <CAEtn_z19bJY5erzgARyOGCj7xOcAN+QKrJZNFaF-bO8Aa7dgag@mail.gmail.com>
References: <008f01cdc030$5e717730$1b546590$@att.net>
 <509FF145.4020803@canonizer.com>
 <005301cdc089$8fd8b910$af8a2b30$@att.net>
 <CAEtn_z19bJY5erzgARyOGCj7xOcAN+QKrJZNFaF-bO8Aa7dgag@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy3RUc3jxqnHNjDq9NqRFVXt1J15v=KGdozh-VGvschtuA@mail.gmail.com>

My choice would be the theme song from the Highlander franchise.  After
all, we do tend to have big egos and expansive views of our potential...


"Here we are, born to be kings, we are the princes of the universe!"


http://www.televisiontunes.com/Highlander.html


John  : )


On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 9:53 PM, Joshua Job <joshjob42 at gmail.com> wrote:

> I love this one. It's a little hokey and old-fashioned, but great
> nevertheless.
>
> And I love "Welcome to the Future" too.
>
> Make Way For Tomorrow Today <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3cJ1onJkig>
>
> Yeah, it's from Iron Man 2, but it always cheers me up.
> -Joshua Job.
>
> On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 7:55 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>
>> ** **
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> >>?On 11/11/2012 10:17 AM, spike wrote:****
>>
>>  ****
>>
>> *>>?We should have an extropians theme song.  I propose Fleetwood Mac?s
>> Don?t Stop? *****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> *From:* extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:
>> extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] *On Behalf Of *Brent Allsop
>> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] exi theme song****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>>
>> Hi Spike,
>>
>> >?Brad Paisley's "Welcome to the Future":
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0Yg9wjctRw
>>
>>
>> ****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> EXCELLENT!  I like Brad Paisley.  Keep in mind that any verses can be
>> rewritten or added to.  spike****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> -Joshua Job
> joshjob42 at gmail.com
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From anders at aleph.se  Mon Nov 12 14:36:15 2012
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2012 14:36:15 +0000
Subject: [ExI] exi theme song
In-Reply-To: <CAEtn_z19bJY5erzgARyOGCj7xOcAN+QKrJZNFaF-bO8Aa7dgag@mail.gmail.com>
References: <008f01cdc030$5e717730$1b546590$@att.net>
 <509FF145.4020803@canonizer.com> <005301cdc089$8fd8b910$af8a2b30$@att.net>
 <CAEtn_z19bJY5erzgARyOGCj7xOcAN+QKrJZNFaF-bO8Aa7dgag@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <50A1095F.2070707@aleph.se>

I am rather fond of VNV nation. Streamline is pretty extropian:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gh0jdBaUCYA&feature=related

-- 
Anders Sandberg,
Future of Humanity Institute
Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University



From anders at aleph.se  Mon Nov 12 14:37:09 2012
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2012 14:37:09 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Report on space business
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB6Xh1DgTt=aMT-769vMsMSB1axxGii68h0CiB_dDf6B1A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB6Xh1DgTt=aMT-769vMsMSB1axxGii68h0CiB_dDf6B1A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <50A10995.30902@aleph.se>

Still not certain what will happen with the China-India deal - there has 
been some strange maneouvering in the past in the Indian space program, 
because of politics (of course). But we should hope they "get" it.

On 11/11/2012 20:38, Keith Henson wrote:

> Unlike Elon (who has stated he hates the power sat concept), Reaction
> Engines has long been upfront that their vehicle (Skylon) is well
> matched to the massive payload capacity needed for power satellites.
>
> Actually, in terms of SpaceX, Elon is right.  Chemical vertical
> takeoff rockets are not just suitable for power sats.

I will try to find out why Elon doesn't like power sats. Could it just 
be that he gets that vertical rockets will not suit them, and hence - 
since he is doing rockets - power sats better not be the future? Sounds 
a bit too stupid.

I really hope they can get the Skylon up. UK space funding is small, but 
that has the advantage of not making it more profitable to suck the teat 
than to try to make something profitable and useful.


-- 
Anders Sandberg,
Future of Humanity Institute
Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University



From dan_ust at yahoo.com  Mon Nov 12 20:25:15 2012
From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2012 12:25:15 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ExI] How PISA surveys systematically overestimate Finland
In-Reply-To: <1352564917.831.YahooMailClassic@web114405.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.1.1352548802.2405.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <1352564917.831.YahooMailClassic@web114405.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1352751915.20521.YahooMailNeo@web126204.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

On Saturday, November 10, 2012 11:28 AM wrote:

> What do you call someone who can speak 2 languages?
> Bilingual.
>
> What do you call someone who can speak 3 languages?
> Trilingual.
>
> What do you call someone who can speak 1 language?
> English.


I thought the correct answer was "American." :)

But, more seriously, one reason I've heard offered up for this is that English, because of its peculiar history, is vastly different from its closet relatives in a way that, say, most other European languages aren't. (Yeah, there are exceptions, such as Suomi.) So, native English speakers already start out with a huge handicap compared with, say, native Dutch or native Italian speakers.

And then, I guess, there's also the economic and political supremacy of English-speaking peoples for the last two hundred years or so. That doesn't seem to have encourage Brits or Americans to learn other languages. (Full disclosure: English is my first language, though I try to mangle German, Norwegian (well, my grandparents spoke it), and French. And I'm perhaps as good at mangling Ancient Greek and Classical Latin. I was kind of hoping the Singularity would've gotten here by now so that I can be cured of my disabilities.:)


Regards,

Dan



From dan_ust at yahoo.com  Mon Nov 12 21:25:20 2012
From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2012 13:25:20 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ExI] Sovereignty and the UFO
Message-ID: <1352755520.90677.YahooMailNeo@web126203.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

http://ptx.sagepub.com/content/36/4/607.abstract

'Modern sovereignty is anthropocentric, constituted and organized by 
reference to human beings alone. Although a metaphysical assumption, anthropocentrism is of immense 
practical import, enabling modern states to command loyalty and 
resources from their subjects in pursuit of political projects. It has limits, however, which are brought clearly into view by the 
authoritative taboo on taking UFOs seriously. UFOs have never 
been systematically investigated by science or the state, because it is 
assumed to be known that none are extraterrestrial. Yet in 
fact this is not known, which makes the UFO taboo puzzling given the ET possibility. Drawing on the work of Giorgio 
Agamben, Michel Foucault, and Jacques Derrida, the puzzle is explained 
by the functional imperatives of anthropocentric 
sovereignty, which cannot decide a UFO exception to anthropocentrism 
while preserving the ability to make such a decision. The UFO can be ?known? only by not asking what it is.'

Comments? It looks like it might just be people spinning their wheels.


Regards,

Dan
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From anders at aleph.se  Mon Nov 12 22:07:07 2012
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2012 22:07:07 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Sovereignty and the UFO
In-Reply-To: <1352755520.90677.YahooMailNeo@web126203.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <1352755520.90677.YahooMailNeo@web126203.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <50A1730B.4000001@aleph.se>

On 12/11/2012 21:25, Dan wrote:
> http://ptx.sagepub.com/content/36/4/607.abstract
>
> ...
>
> Comments? It looks like it might just be people spinning their wheels.
>

Very much. Maybe there is an element of UFOs as a threat to national 
sovereignty, but a great deal more weight should be placed on the 
perceived lack of credibility of the phenomenon. Something that gets 
dismissed very quickly and lightly by the paper... I honestly think this 
is a case of real UFO believers who also happens to be namedropping 
postmodernists (actually, their writing is almost too clear to be proper 
PoMo). It had to happen.

Academics write the darndest things. I should know, I have spent the day 
working on a paper that is unusual even by my standards: the 
ultrahyperbolic wave equation in 3+2 dimensions applied to music.

-- 
Anders Sandberg,
Future of Humanity Institute
Oxford Martin School
Faculty of Philosophy
Oxford University

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From anders at aleph.se  Mon Nov 12 22:21:17 2012
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2012 22:21:17 +0000
Subject: [ExI] An old skeleton tumbles out of the list closet
Message-ID: <50A1765D.5030700@aleph.se>

I knew that thread would come back and bite us:
http://www.aeonmagazine.com/world-views/ken-macleod-socialism-and-transhumanism/
Not to speak ill of the dead, but Robert was amazingly stupid there.

However, it is an interesting essay on its own. Is there a way of 
getting a common human identity without going for fictional religious 
explanations?

-- 
Anders Sandberg,
Future of Humanity Institute
Oxford Martin School
Faculty of Philosophy
Oxford University



From atymes at gmail.com  Mon Nov 12 21:56:34 2012
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2012 13:56:34 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Sovereignty and the UFO
In-Reply-To: <1352755520.90677.YahooMailNeo@web126203.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <1352755520.90677.YahooMailNeo@web126203.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNQmMRV6ivygkMO3+h7CP5-bymGeN-YNnaXtsmkz_XYKkQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Nov 12, 2012 at 1:25 PM, Dan <dan_ust at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Comments? It looks like it might just be people spinning their wheels.

It is.

> UFOs have never been
> systematically investigated by science or the state

Except for all the times it has, and kept turning up bogus.
"Weather balloons" may be a trope, but the evidence says it
really was weather balloons much of the time.  Those who
doubt it are free to provide counter-evidence.  Those who doubt
it *only because they can not accept that nothing mysterious
or spooky or alien was going on*, well...when one side has
evidence, and the other doesn't, even if the other side has the
most passionate belief, the other side is in fact usually wrong.

> the functional imperatives of anthropocentric sovereignty,
> which cannot decide a UFO exception to anthropocentrism while preserving the
> ability to make such a decision.

Actually, no, it can.  If there were sentient extraterrestrials on
Earth, they could be considered "people" - albeit people who
originally belong to no nation, though perhaps they could
immigrate just like any human being who winds up a member
of no nation, or perhaps they could be foreigners just like any
human being who belongs to another nation.  Either way, ETs
could be readily incorporated if they existed; the only reason
that no non-humans are part of nations is because there are
no sentient non-humans on Earth.  To claim that, just because
ETs aren't included, means they can't be included and that
sovereignty requires assuming they don't exist, is pure circular
reasoning.

> The UFO can be ?known? only by not asking
> what it is.

This style of language seals it.  There is no
similar-to-known-but-not-actually-known concept that quoting
"known"  implies - or at least, no such concept that is useful
in making any sort of practical decision.  Further, the
implication that data can only be gathered by not seeking it
(not just "don't actively seek it or do certain experiments", but
rejecting even such things as passive data gathering or
considering the design of experiments) is utterly false.



From charlie.stross at gmail.com  Mon Nov 12 23:57:29 2012
From: charlie.stross at gmail.com (Charlie Stross)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2012 23:57:29 +0000
Subject: [ExI] An old skeleton tumbles out of the list closet
In-Reply-To: <50A1765D.5030700@aleph.se>
References: <50A1765D.5030700@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <2A6EABEA-8FB6-4D25-BD28-9C44F2D40AE7@gmail.com>


On 12 Nov 2012, at 22:21, Anders Sandberg <anders at aleph.se> wrote:

> I knew that thread would come back and bite us:
> http://www.aeonmagazine.com/world-views/ken-macleod-socialism-and-transhumanism/
> Not to speak ill of the dead, but Robert was amazingly stupid there.
> 
> However, it is an interesting essay on its own. Is there a way of getting a common human identity without going for fictional religious explanations?

Weirdly, some of the commenters on my blog are nibbling at the corners of that question (from around comment #277 on the current thread), with discussions of various types and category of religion, whether the process of science can be understood as a religion (when viewed anthropologically) and so on. More at: 

http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/2012/11/2512.html

However ...

That's a very good question.

The scientific method[s] give us an analytical framework but not an ideology (although some of its findings are deeply subversive to some existing ideologies -- see also Gallileo).

Marxism's appeal lay in its attempt to provide an analytical framework for human behaviour, at both social and economic levels; its failing lies not so much in the analysis as in the grotesquely botched attempts at building an ideology and then a political control system on top of it. (Which is to say: Marx, good; Lenin, really not good at all.)

Rand tried to build a system equivalent to Marxism, but using capitalism as its armature. Falls at the first hurdle by having absolutely nothing useful to say about altruism, much less the roughly 75% of human interactions that are strictly *non*-financial. (Reading Graeber on the origins of money and debt is a bit illuminating here. Oh, and Graeber: sometimes wrong, has a whole bushel of axes to grind. But still provocative and well worth reading, even if you feel the need to stop every few pages and argue with him.)

Perhaps what we're looking for is something like Stoicism, but updated to take account of what we now know of cognitive psychology? 

For those who aren't familiar with it, Stoicism was a philosophy and a belief system that dates to roughly 300BCE and was eclipsed by the rise of Christianity in the Roman empire circa 200CE. Wikipedia entry:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoicism


-- Charlie


From anders at aleph.se  Tue Nov 13 00:47:13 2012
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2012 00:47:13 +0000
Subject: [ExI] An old skeleton tumbles out of the list closet
In-Reply-To: <2A6EABEA-8FB6-4D25-BD28-9C44F2D40AE7@gmail.com>
References: <50A1765D.5030700@aleph.se>
 <2A6EABEA-8FB6-4D25-BD28-9C44F2D40AE7@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <50A19891.1030607@aleph.se>

On 12/11/2012 23:57, Charlie Stross wrote:
> Perhaps what we're looking for is something like Stoicism, but updated to take account of what we now know of cognitive psychology?

I'm more of an Epicurean, myself. Stoics might have got the psychology 
part roughly right (it is interesting to compare it to findings in 
happiness studies), but they did not seem to have that much fun. I think 
we can have a far more hedonistic tranquillity.

The problem with Stoicism and Epicureanism is that they still don't bind 
together people much. Sure, they are not against human fellowship, but 
it is not the main focus.

Maybe the solution is just to tweak the social distance system with 
neurotech and artificially enlarge the empathic circle of concern to 
cover most of humanity. Some interesting free rider issues, but I 
suspect the reciprocal altruism network effects could outweigh those - 
and there are few things scarier than billions of caring people. Which 
of course shows the problem with this approach.

-- 
Anders Sandberg,
Future of Humanity Institute
Oxford Martin School
Faculty of Philosophy
Oxford University



From dan_ust at yahoo.com  Tue Nov 13 02:42:15 2012
From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2012 18:42:15 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ExI] An old skeleton tumbles out of the list closet
In-Reply-To: <2A6EABEA-8FB6-4D25-BD28-9C44F2D40AE7@gmail.com>
References: <50A1765D.5030700@aleph.se>
 <2A6EABEA-8FB6-4D25-BD28-9C44F2D40AE7@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1352774535.39591.YahooMailNeo@web126205.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

On Monday, November 12, 2012 6:57 PM Charlie Stross <charlie.stross at gmail.com> wrote:

> Marxism's appeal lay in its attempt to provide an analytical framework for human behaviour,
> at both social and economic levels; its failing lies not so much in the analysis as in the
> grotesquely botched attempts at building an ideology and then a political control system
> on top of it. (Which is to say: Marx, good; Lenin, really not good at all.)

I believe Marx laid the groundwork for the political control system, especially if you read him and Engels on revolution. They were vague about many things, but there seemed to be a clear idea that there would be violent revolution and a dictatorship. If that's so, then Lenin wasn't a radical break with that tradition.

Also, some of Marx's analysis relied on classical liberal class analysis. For more on this, see "Classical Liberal Roots of the Marxist Doctrine of Classes" by Ralph Raico at http://mises.org/daily/2217

This is not to deny some of his innovations in this area. His economics, also, was faulty and that's a big problem since economic crises are supposed to drive social system evolution in his view.

> Rand tried to build a system equivalent to Marxism, but using capitalism as its armature.

I'm not sure that's a fair characterization. I think her innovation was probably to not apologize for free markets, but to applaud them. It seems to me many previous thinkers in the liberal or libertarian tradition had looked at free markets as sort of necessary evil.


> Falls at the first hurdle by having absolutely nothing useful to say about altruism,

I don't know about that. I do agree that there problems with her conception of altruism, but it seems like she studied and reacted to Comte on this. (Of course, in her typical fashion, she's silent about her sources.) See "Altruism in Auguste Comte and Ayn Rand" by Robert Campbell at http://www.aynrandstudies.com/jars/archives/jars7-2/jars7_2rcampbell.pdf


> much less the roughly 75% of human interactions that are strictly *non*-financial.

This seems caricature. Rand didn't, to my mind, reduce all human interactions to financial. But she did believe that human relations at their base should be based on mutual consent and on each person trading value for value in the relationship. This doesn't mean being someone's friend based on getting $21,361.37. I just means that each person should value the relationship and not see it as a burden or a duty. How to apply this to all kinds of relationships is something she dealt with and many of those influenced have gone over. Having known many people influenced by her, I've yet to meet the caricature you seem to point to.


> (Reading Graeber on the origins of money and debt is a bit illuminating here. Oh, and
> Graeber: sometimes wrong, has a whole bushel of axes to grind. But still provocative
> and well worth reading, even if you feel the need to stop every few pages and argue with him.)

I believe Graeber basically wrong on money, though certainly current government money systems probably do fall under his analysis. Like you, too, I think he has axes to grind, but is well worth reading. On the plane back from Rome a few years ago, _Fragments of an Anarchist Anthropology_, to my delight. Left libertarians have definitely taken note of him, including many who have been influenced by Rand.


> Perhaps what we're looking for is something like Stoicism, but updated to take account
> of what we now know of cognitive psychology? 
>
> For those who aren't familiar with it, Stoicism was a philosophy and a belief system that
> dates to roughly 300BCE and was eclipsed by the rise of Christianity in the Roman empire
> circa 200CE. Wikipedia entry:
I wouldn't knock Stoicism, though I think it has it's problems and I'm more partial to Aristotle when it comes to the Ancients. That said, continuing on the Rand thing, Roderick Long recently commented that Rand's characters in _The Fountainhead_ were actually a critique of the Stoic view of happiness in favor of the Aristotelean one. His exact words are "Aristotelean metriopatheia as opposed to Stoic apatheia." I must say, as a high school student reading her novel, I missed that. :)

By the way, an excellent book on Stoicism or, more precisely, one of its modern permutations is Lawrence C Becker's _A New Stoicism_. It's a quick read and a bit more informative than the Wikipedia article. :)

Regards,

Dan


From dan_ust at yahoo.com  Tue Nov 13 02:48:27 2012
From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2012 18:48:27 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ExI] An old skeleton tumbles out of the list closet
In-Reply-To: <50A19891.1030607@aleph.se>
References: <50A1765D.5030700@aleph.se>
 <2A6EABEA-8FB6-4D25-BD28-9C44F2D40AE7@gmail.com> <50A19891.1030607@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <1352774907.93275.YahooMailNeo@web126203.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

On Monday, November 12, 2012 7:47 PM Anders Sandberg <anders at aleph.se> wrote:

> I'm more of an Epicurean, myself. Stoics might have got the psychology
> part roughly right (it is interesting to compare it to findings in happiness
> studies), but they did not seem to have that much fun. I think we can have
> a far more hedonistic tranquillity.
>
> The problem with Stoicism and Epicureanism is that they still don't bind together
> people much. Sure, they are not against human fellowship, but it is not the
> main focus.

Continuing on the Rand riff, have you read "Epicurean Pleasure and the Objectivist Good" by Peter Saint-Andre? It's at: http://stpeter.im/writings/rand/epicurus.html

This doesn't really get into human fellowship. His earlier paper does a tiny bit: http://stpeter.im/writings/rand/apfloe.html That one, though, is more just straight forward Rand stuff and not Epicurus.

> Maybe the solution is just to tweak the social distance system with neurotech
> and artificially enlarge the empathic circle of concern to cover most of humanity.
> Some interesting free rider issues, but I suspect the reciprocal altruism network
> effects could outweigh those - and there are few things scarier than billions of
> caring people. Which of course shows the problem with this approach.

I imagine some of the free rider stuff might fall by the wayside simply because changing the neurotech will change the incentives for it. The thing I would fear, of course, is caring resulting in a total loss of autonomy, but I reckon that's the horror scenario and not the most likely outcome.

Regards,

Dan
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From spike66 at att.net  Tue Nov 13 05:23:56 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2012 21:23:56 -0800
Subject: [ExI] How PISA surveys systematically overestimate Finland
In-Reply-To: <1352751915.20521.YahooMailNeo@web126204.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.1.1352548802.2405.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <1352564917.831.YahooMailClassic@web114405.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
 <1352751915.20521.YahooMailNeo@web126204.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <00fe01cdc15f$142a41e0$3c7ec5a0$@att.net>



>... On Behalf Of Dan
...
>
>> What do you call someone who can speak 1 language?  English.


>...I thought the correct answer was "American." :)

>...But, more seriously, one reason I've heard offered up for this is that
English, because of its peculiar history, is vastly different from its
closet relatives in a way that, say, most other European languages
aren't...Dan

_______________________________________________

Being a poster-child example of an English-as-only-language speaker, I have
often wondered why it is we have so many different words for the same thing.
Seems like such a waste of perfectly good neurons to remember them all.
Spanish doesn't seem to have that as much.  So my question is, can you have
crossword puzzles in Spanish?  I mean the tight 15x15s, like you see in our
daily newspapers, full grid with about 20 blackouts on the 225 square grid.

spike



From dan_ust at yahoo.com  Tue Nov 13 05:49:33 2012
From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2012 21:49:33 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ExI] How PISA surveys systematically overestimate Finland
In-Reply-To: <00fe01cdc15f$142a41e0$3c7ec5a0$@att.net>
References: <mailman.1.1352548802.2405.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <1352564917.831.YahooMailClassic@web114405.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
 <1352751915.20521.YahooMailNeo@web126204.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <00fe01cdc15f$142a41e0$3c7ec5a0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <1352785773.45127.YahooMailNeo@web126201.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

On Tuesday, November 13, 2012 12:23 AM spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

>>> What do you call someone who can speak 1 language?? English.

>>
>>...I thought the correct answer was "American." :)

>>

>>...But, more seriously, one reason I've heard offered up for this is that
>> English, because of its peculiar history, is vastly different from its
>> closet relatives in a way that, say, most other European languages
>> aren't...Dan
>
> Being a poster-child example of an English-as-only-language speaker, I have
> often wondered why it is we have so many different words for the same thing.

I'm not sure how much it matters since the average person seems to not use them and has a very constrained working vocabulary. I think most tend toward a rather limited lexicon where the Nabokov types stick out. (I think people range in vocabulary from a few thousand words, to many tens of thousands. I think typical conversational vocabularies run about two thousand or less. Think of your average email.) But, that said, there are synonyms in all the languages I know of, which often makes it hard for a non-native. There are just idioms, but someone might ask or answer with something that has a simple non-idiomatic meaning that's just not in my memory. :/ Yet I'm not sure if they have the relatively the same number of synonyms. English is, I've read and heard, the language with the most words, so I suspect maybe not. Then again, many new words in English are obscure and technical -- not the kind of thing you need worry about.


> Seems like such a waste of perfectly good neurons to remember them all.
> Spanish doesn't seem to have that as much.? So my question is, can you have
> crossword puzzles in Spanish?? I mean the tight 15x15s, like you see in our
> daily newspapers, full grid with about 20 blackouts on the 225 square grid.

To the Google! It seems they have them. And they look similar to English-language ones. I actually had a book of Latin crossword puzzles, but these were much less complicated, though that might be more because they were geared to the student than any indication of the number of words in the language. Granted, Latin isn't exactly growing by leaps and bounds... Then again, there's a Wiki or Viki in Latin:

http://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pagina_prima

Regards,

Dan




From spike66 at att.net  Tue Nov 13 06:11:20 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2012 22:11:20 -0800
Subject: [ExI] An old skeleton tumbles out of the list closet
In-Reply-To: <2A6EABEA-8FB6-4D25-BD28-9C44F2D40AE7@gmail.com>
References: <50A1765D.5030700@aleph.se>
 <2A6EABEA-8FB6-4D25-BD28-9C44F2D40AE7@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <010e01cdc165$b37d1870$1a774950$@att.net>


>... On Behalf Of Charlie Stross
...

>...Rand tried to build a system equivalent to Marxism, but using capitalism
as its armature...  -- Charlie

Capitalism:  To each according to his paycheck.  From each according to his
paycheck.

Perhaps my dream will come to pass in my lifetime: to see American
capitalism swept away, and subsequently replaced by American unfettered
capitalism.

spike



From spike66 at att.net  Tue Nov 13 06:16:46 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2012 22:16:46 -0800
Subject: [ExI] An old skeleton tumbles out of the list closet
In-Reply-To: <1352774535.39591.YahooMailNeo@web126205.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <50A1765D.5030700@aleph.se>
 <2A6EABEA-8FB6-4D25-BD28-9C44F2D40AE7@gmail.com>
 <1352774535.39591.YahooMailNeo@web126205.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <010f01cdc166$75ea80a0$61bf81e0$@att.net>


>... On Behalf Of Dan
...

>... It seems to me many previous thinkers in the liberal or libertarian
tradition had looked at free markets as sort of necessary evil...  Dan

I see free markets not so much as a necessary evil but rather as a necessary
righteousness.

We will sorely miss free markets once they are gone.

spike





From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Tue Nov 13 05:52:59 2012
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2012 00:52:59 -0500
Subject: [ExI] An old skeleton tumbles out of the list closet
In-Reply-To: <1352774907.93275.YahooMailNeo@web126203.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <50A1765D.5030700@aleph.se>
 <2A6EABEA-8FB6-4D25-BD28-9C44F2D40AE7@gmail.com>
 <50A19891.1030607@aleph.se>
 <1352774907.93275.YahooMailNeo@web126203.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAAc1gFhbVHP68suz=+bZZDtfUTwe36XTVrWbrf9z-=+Jd0LZ5Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Nov 12, 2012 at 9:48 PM, Dan <dan_ust at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> I imagine some of the free rider stuff might fall by the wayside simply
> because changing the neurotech will change the incentives for it. The thing
> I would fear, of course, is caring resulting in a total loss of autonomy,
> but I reckon that's the horror scenario and not the most likely outcome.
>

### I have been fascinated with the technical details of future goal
systems for years. The first time I wrote about "autopsychoengineering" on
this list must have been sometime in the last millenium. Of course, it
doesn't matter what we might want or desire in this respect - the tautology
of evolution means that what survives, survives, and what dies, dies.
Still, inquiring minds want to know.

Currently I suspect that the entities that are going to replace us soon
will have the following features:

1) A programmatic way of defining in-groups (for example, instantly
recognizing a mind providing appropriate credentials as self), instead of
the evolved trickery we have

2) Completely altruistic and reliably non-defecting behavior in-group

3) A common set of moral presets enabling structured stable interactions
in-group, for example a non-adversarial dominance mechanism producing many
levels of "master", "slave" roles without in-group conflict

4) Lack of individual ability or drive to replicate, which would be
supplanted by non-individual design and validation protocols to produce new
minds

5) A large variety of individual cognitive styles operating under a common
general protocol for exchange of information, establishment of trust, to
assure the ability to explore large spaces of solutions, instead of
clustering of solutions due to group-think

You may note this sounds suspiciously like a treatise on eusocial insects
couched in sociologist-speak. Well, thinking about these issues is hard, so
I fall back on knowledge about solutions that have been around for some
time.

One problem that I find rather opaque is how this new society/superorganism
would assure that new designs of minds do not start exerting an
inappropriate positive feedback on their own creation (i.e. cancerous
growth), to the detriment of the society as a whole. Having a single stable
entity in charge of new mind design evaluation and old design elimination
would be a possible solution, as in a Greg Egan's polis. Another solution
may have many moving parts - specialized groups of minds, following
structured interaction protocols to gestate new minds, with multiple levels
of redundant cross-checking of mind performance before a new design is
allowed to be produced in larger numbers, or more importantly, to
participate in the design of yet newer generations of minds.

Are ya'all eager to upload and start tinkering?

Rafal
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From giulio at gmail.com  Tue Nov 13 06:32:35 2012
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2012 07:32:35 +0100
Subject: [ExI] An old skeleton tumbles out of the list closet
In-Reply-To: <010e01cdc165$b37d1870$1a774950$@att.net>
References: <50A1765D.5030700@aleph.se>
 <2A6EABEA-8FB6-4D25-BD28-9C44F2D40AE7@gmail.com>
 <010e01cdc165$b37d1870$1a774950$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAKTCJyff_BgYgySevq077PJXmsvtJtSqXh7qACqYMmDYxGVxNA@mail.gmail.com>

Now, I am not sure I understand what you mean by "American unfettered
capitalism," but I see modern capitalism (in the U.S. and elsewhere)
as a hyper-corrupted collusion of Big Government and Big Capital that
cooperate behind the scenes to keep all the power/money and screw the
rest of the people.

On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 7:11 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>
>>... On Behalf Of Charlie Stross
> ...
>
>>...Rand tried to build a system equivalent to Marxism, but using capitalism
> as its armature...  -- Charlie
>
> Capitalism:  To each according to his paycheck.  From each according to his
> paycheck.
>
> Perhaps my dream will come to pass in my lifetime: to see American
> capitalism swept away, and subsequently replaced by American unfettered
> capitalism.
>
> spike
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From giulio at gmail.com  Tue Nov 13 06:04:00 2012
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2012 07:04:00 +0100
Subject: [ExI] An old skeleton tumbles out of the list closet
In-Reply-To: <1352774907.93275.YahooMailNeo@web126203.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <50A1765D.5030700@aleph.se>
 <2A6EABEA-8FB6-4D25-BD28-9C44F2D40AE7@gmail.com>
 <50A19891.1030607@aleph.se>
 <1352774907.93275.YahooMailNeo@web126203.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAKTCJycEqpuaOC7cMYM5xPmpgnHU22sJm7APgykntnco5fj+hw@mail.gmail.com>

Ken's essay is very interesting. Yes, Robert used to express very
controversial opinions at times. I remember that the post in question
was strongly criticized by most people on this list.

@Anders re "Is there a way of getting a common human identity without
going for fictional religious explanations?"

Religious "human exceptionalism" values humans because they are
humans. The countless mass slaughters committed by organized religion
make it difficult to believe in their sincerity though, it seems to me
that if you love humans you don't kill them, but perhaps I am just
being anti-intellectual. As Ken says, "human" needs to be defined, now
that the old definition is breaking down. I don't think a common
definition is realistic, or even desirable. My own definition of
"persons"  includes most people, but also cute doggies and kind,
compassionate AIs or aliens.

@Charlie and Anders re Marxism, Stoicism, Epicureanism etc.

Some Marxist writers like Haldane and Bernal have shown that Marxism
can be extended as a suitable philosophy for future humans. I think
Marx himself would have been quite sympathetic to their views (not
Lenin though). I consider the philosophy of the Russian Cosmists
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_cosmism of the late 19th century,
and modern Cosmist formulations like Ben Goertzel's, as a good
starting points for future philosophies.


From dan_ust at yahoo.com  Tue Nov 13 06:58:32 2012
From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2012 22:58:32 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ExI] An old skeleton tumbles out of the list closet
In-Reply-To: <010e01cdc165$b37d1870$1a774950$@att.net>
References: <50A1765D.5030700@aleph.se>
 <2A6EABEA-8FB6-4D25-BD28-9C44F2D40AE7@gmail.com>
 <010e01cdc165$b37d1870$1a774950$@att.net>
Message-ID: <1352789912.73241.YahooMailNeo@web126205.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

On Tuesday, November 13, 2012 1:11 AM spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

> Capitalism:? To each according to his paycheck.? From each according to his
> paycheck.
>
> Perhaps my dream will come to pass in my lifetime: to see American
> capitalism swept away, and subsequently replaced by American unfettered
> capitalism.


Some left libertarians have called themselves free market anticapitalists. They tend to associate the term capitalism with corporatism or with a pro-business view -- as opposed just a pro-freedom view.

Also, in terms of pithy slogans, I think Robert Nozick was in top form:

"From each as they choose, to each as they are chosen."

That's from his _Anarchy, State, and Utopia_.

Regards,

Dan




From giulio at gmail.com  Tue Nov 13 07:47:18 2012
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2012 08:47:18 +0100
Subject: [ExI] An old skeleton tumbles out of the list closet
In-Reply-To: <1352789912.73241.YahooMailNeo@web126205.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <50A1765D.5030700@aleph.se>
 <2A6EABEA-8FB6-4D25-BD28-9C44F2D40AE7@gmail.com>
 <010e01cdc165$b37d1870$1a774950$@att.net>
 <1352789912.73241.YahooMailNeo@web126205.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAKTCJydzEvbRAAsSFdWtzccBB19BdXSMQDN-_v8Jv2ezkcvG3Q@mail.gmail.com>

I think this is a good way of putting it. Modern capitalism is
pro-business (as in Big Business with enough cash to bribe the shit
out of politicians and admins) as opposed to pro-freedom. They don't
compete of quality, but they pay the regulators to create impossible
barriers for new entrants. Call me a free-market anticapitalist, with
the additional crazy thought that freedom should include freedom to
eat.

On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 7:58 AM, Dan <dan_ust at yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Tuesday, November 13, 2012 1:11 AM spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>
>> Capitalism:  To each according to his paycheck.  From each according to his
>> paycheck.
>>
>> Perhaps my dream will come to pass in my lifetime: to see American
>> capitalism swept away, and subsequently replaced by American unfettered
>> capitalism.
>
>
> Some left libertarians have called themselves free market anticapitalists. They tend to associate the term capitalism with corporatism or with a pro-business view -- as opposed just a pro-freedom view.
>
> Also, in terms of pithy slogans, I think Robert Nozick was in top form:
>
> "From each as they choose, to each as they are chosen."
>
> That's from his _Anarchy, State, and Utopia_.
>
> Regards,
>
> Dan
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From charlie.stross at gmail.com  Tue Nov 13 10:52:45 2012
From: charlie.stross at gmail.com (Charlie Stross)
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2012 10:52:45 +0000
Subject: [ExI] An old skeleton tumbles out of the list closet
In-Reply-To: <50A19891.1030607@aleph.se>
References: <50A1765D.5030700@aleph.se>
 <2A6EABEA-8FB6-4D25-BD28-9C44F2D40AE7@gmail.com> <50A19891.1030607@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <F7AB752B-8DF8-4F3B-86E3-7D6B418DB24B@gmail.com>


On 13 Nov 2012, at 00:47, Anders Sandberg <anders at aleph.se> wrote:

> On 12/11/2012 23:57, Charlie Stross wrote:
>> Perhaps what we're looking for is something like Stoicism, but updated to take account of what we now know of cognitive psychology?
> 
> I'm more of an Epicurean, myself. Stoics might have got the psychology part roughly right (it is interesting to compare it to findings in happiness studies), but they did not seem to have that much fun. I think we can have a far more hedonistic tranquillity.
> 
> The problem with Stoicism and Epicureanism is that they still don't bind together people much. Sure, they are not against human fellowship, but it is not the main focus.
> 
> Maybe the solution is just to tweak the social distance system with neurotech and artificially enlarge the empathic circle of concern to cover most of humanity. Some interesting free rider issues, but I suspect the reciprocal altruism network effects could outweigh those - and there are few things scarier than billions of caring people. Which of course shows the problem with this approach.

We could all do with a few extra mirror neurons. (Especially if it turns out they're important for theory of mind.)

Might make it hard for governments to recruit soldiers if everyone is too busy empathizing with the person in the gunsight. But I can't help thinking that if this was a universal tweak, this would be a *very* good outcome.


-- Charlie


From giulio at gmail.com  Tue Nov 13 11:27:14 2012
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2012 12:27:14 +0100
Subject: [ExI] An old skeleton tumbles out of the list closet
In-Reply-To: <F7AB752B-8DF8-4F3B-86E3-7D6B418DB24B@gmail.com>
References: <50A1765D.5030700@aleph.se>
 <2A6EABEA-8FB6-4D25-BD28-9C44F2D40AE7@gmail.com>
 <50A19891.1030607@aleph.se>
 <F7AB752B-8DF8-4F3B-86E3-7D6B418DB24B@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKTCJyeUSyytS1UJ3zWyNXHk3J-EuaXthe2o2fo1-8J3KjF-mQ@mail.gmail.com>

Not so fast Charlie, it works both ways. The government could
reprogram soldiers by _reducing_ their empathy. I guess many people
would sign for that against the promise of a green card.

On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 11:52 AM, Charlie Stross
<charlie.stross at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 13 Nov 2012, at 00:47, Anders Sandberg <anders at aleph.se> wrote:
>
>> On 12/11/2012 23:57, Charlie Stross wrote:
>>> Perhaps what we're looking for is something like Stoicism, but updated to take account of what we now know of cognitive psychology?
>>
>> I'm more of an Epicurean, myself. Stoics might have got the psychology part roughly right (it is interesting to compare it to findings in happiness studies), but they did not seem to have that much fun. I think we can have a far more hedonistic tranquillity.
>>
>> The problem with Stoicism and Epicureanism is that they still don't bind together people much. Sure, they are not against human fellowship, but it is not the main focus.
>>
>> Maybe the solution is just to tweak the social distance system with neurotech and artificially enlarge the empathic circle of concern to cover most of humanity. Some interesting free rider issues, but I suspect the reciprocal altruism network effects could outweigh those - and there are few things scarier than billions of caring people. Which of course shows the problem with this approach.
>
> We could all do with a few extra mirror neurons. (Especially if it turns out they're important for theory of mind.)
>
> Might make it hard for governments to recruit soldiers if everyone is too busy empathizing with the person in the gunsight. But I can't help thinking that if this was a universal tweak, this would be a *very* good outcome.
>
>
> -- Charlie
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat



From anders at aleph.se  Tue Nov 13 11:43:34 2012
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2012 11:43:34 +0000
Subject: [ExI] exi theme song
In-Reply-To: <509FF145.4020803@canonizer.com>
References: <008f01cdc030$5e717730$1b546590$@att.net>
 <509FF145.4020803@canonizer.com>
Message-ID: <50A23266.50305@aleph.se>

Another fun song is Bodies Without Organs' "Living in a fantasy"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dHEcFcJlfvg
which does refer to both transhumanism and cryonics.

Of course, Alexander Bard is familiar with us (old acquaintance of Nick 
and me), so it is not terribly surprising. He even puns on 
"extropia/ex-tropica" in "Nuclear India" by his earlier group Vacuum: 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOAqsDSc_Hg

-- 
Anders Sandberg,
Future of Humanity Institute
Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University



From charlie.stross at gmail.com  Tue Nov 13 16:48:20 2012
From: charlie.stross at gmail.com (Charlie Stross)
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2012 16:48:20 +0000
Subject: [ExI] How PISA surveys systematically overestimate Finland
In-Reply-To: <00fe01cdc15f$142a41e0$3c7ec5a0$@att.net>
References: <mailman.1.1352548802.2405.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <1352564917.831.YahooMailClassic@web114405.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
 <1352751915.20521.YahooMailNeo@web126204.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <00fe01cdc15f$142a41e0$3c7ec5a0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <D2DF015B-B320-4B8D-A340-A67A17440026@gmail.com>


On 13 Nov 2012, at 05:23, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

> _______________________________________________
> 
> Being a poster-child example of an English-as-only-language speaker, I have
> often wondered why it is we have so many different words for the same thing.

As James Nicoll put it, "English doesn't so much borrow words from other languages as pursue them down dark alleyways to mug them and steal their spare vocabulary."

Less facetiously -- English is a mixture of a Germanic language, with Norman French (from the Normal conquest) and a chunk of Church Latin on the side. The Norman thing is most obvious in words for food -- the Old English roots show in the names of the animal (e.g. "Cow") while the nobility used their own word for the food prepared from the animal ("Beef" -- see also French, "Boef"). (Also: "Sheep", "Mutton" ("Mouton"). And so on.) The French influence runs deep, as George W. Bush unintentionally found out when he declared "French has no word for 'entrepreneur'". Then, on top of all that, we added a bunch of other stuff looted from places we invaded -- we live in bungalows and eat curries, for example -- and specialized sub-languages for science, engineering, and medicine (medical English adds a vocabulary at least as large again as core English, as anyone who's had an inguinal hernia knows).

Finally, there's the process of coining of new words. Some of which are awful: why do we "plane" and "de-plane" on aircraft, when there are perfectly serviceable words like "embark" and "disembark" (for getting on and off your barque, of course -- via old French from the Latin barca, or "ship's boat")?


-- Charlie


From spike66 at att.net  Tue Nov 13 17:24:53 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2012 09:24:53 -0800
Subject: [ExI] newspeak again,
	was:  RE:  How PISA surveys systematically overestimate Finland
Message-ID: <001001cdc1c3$cbfecf70$63fc6e50$@att.net>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Charlie Stross
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2012 8:48 AM
To: ExI chat list
Subject: Re: [ExI] How PISA surveys systematically overestimate Finland


On 13 Nov 2012, at 05:23, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

> _______________________________________________
> 
>>... Being a poster-child example of an English-as-only-language speaker, I
have often wondered why it is we have so many different words for the same
thing.

>...As James Nicoll put it, "English doesn't so much borrow words from other
languages as pursue them down dark alleyways to mug them and steal their
spare vocabulary."

>...Finally, there's the process of coining of new words. Some of which are
awful: why do we "plane" and "de-plane" on aircraft, when there are
perfectly serviceable words like "embark" and "disembark" (for getting on
and off your barque, of course -- via old French from the Latin barca, or
"ship's boat")? --Charlie
_______________________________________________

Plane and de-plane: I view it as a good example of Newspeak, as described by
Orwell in 1984.  It was required reading for a lit class in high school.  I
took no end of harassment from my lads for pointing out that in this dark
dystopian tale, Newspeak was one hell of a good idea: a strict subset of
language simplified in every practical way and kept inside a small even if
clumsy vocabulary.  

Charlie, I have spent plenty of CPU cycles pondering this topic.  Your
example of planing and de-planing is a demonstration of turning a noun into
a verb.  As a fun little exercise, let us see what absurd lengths we can
take this concept.  Eliminate the more common expressive words such as
embark and disembark, replace with word forms wherever possible in which the
same root is used as a noun, a verb, an adverb, an adjective, in a process I
will name utilization.  If a word can be used in all the categories, that
word achieves full utilization.  The most universally utilized word I can
think of is fuck.  That one is commonly used in all parts of speech already.


Charlie, using your example: Next month I will go get on a plane, and while
I am deplaning, I will gaze out the terminal window and admire the planing
parked out there, while ponder how many times I have planed over the years,
further contemplating my return trip in which I will planely travel back to
the west coast, making for a plane quick trip.

The English alphabet beats the Chinese languages because it has fewer
characters, each working harder.  English needs a subset with fewer words,
each working harder.

spike



From charlie.stross at gmail.com  Tue Nov 13 17:40:32 2012
From: charlie.stross at gmail.com (Charlie Stross)
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2012 17:40:32 +0000
Subject: [ExI] An old skeleton tumbles out of the list closet
In-Reply-To: <CAKTCJyff_BgYgySevq077PJXmsvtJtSqXh7qACqYMmDYxGVxNA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <50A1765D.5030700@aleph.se>
 <2A6EABEA-8FB6-4D25-BD28-9C44F2D40AE7@gmail.com>
 <010e01cdc165$b37d1870$1a774950$@att.net>
 <CAKTCJyff_BgYgySevq077PJXmsvtJtSqXh7qACqYMmDYxGVxNA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0E674CDA-FBEF-4551-8CC6-E176D5333016@gmail.com>


On 13 Nov 2012, at 06:32, Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:

> Now, I am not sure I understand what you mean by "American unfettered
> capitalism," but I see modern capitalism (in the U.S. and elsewhere)
> as a hyper-corrupted collusion of Big Government and Big Capital that
> cooperate behind the scenes to keep all the power/money and screw the
> rest of the people.

+1 to this. "Regulatory capture" has run rampant, ever since the 1880s, if not earlier. And the trouble with corporatism -- which is what this is -- is that there are no costs to corporations for dumping externalities on the environment that, as individuals, we all (including their CEOs) have to live, eat, sleep, drink, and breathe in.

Not to mention the issue with rent-seeking. Which is why Big Pharma would far rather market a new anti-depressant (of questionable efficacy, in an already crowded market) than research new and essential antibiotics. And why Big Music want to milk back-lists rather than foster new talent. And why the construction and transport industries promote insane zoning laws, and why car dealers are suing Tesla Motors, and why the patent litigation sector was able to suck over $20Bn out of the electronics sector last year, and why undertaker associations are trying to ban non-undertakers from making and selling coffins, and and and ...

Capitalism-as-practiced-in-the-United-States is *BROKEN*. Very badly broken indeed. Some areas still reward hard work and entrepreneurship, but for the most part it's all about wealth acquisition and consolidation via rent seeking, not wealth *production*.


-- Charlie


From pharos at gmail.com  Tue Nov 13 18:04:27 2012
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2012 18:04:27 +0000
Subject: [ExI] newspeak again,
 was: RE: How PISA surveys systematically overestimate Finland
In-Reply-To: <001001cdc1c3$cbfecf70$63fc6e50$@att.net>
References: <001001cdc1c3$cbfecf70$63fc6e50$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAL_armiU_CMVxCZ77yEfVvxPr-ywARsEHC2aW39fHHLxCafA4w@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 5:24 PM, spike wrote:
<snip>
> The English alphabet beats the Chinese languages because it has fewer
> characters, each working harder.  English needs a subset with fewer words,
> each working harder.
>
>

Voice of America Special English.
It has a limited vocabulary of 1500 words. Most are simple words that
describe objects, actions or emotions. Some are more difficult. They
are used for reporting world events and describing discoveries in
medicine and science.
Special English is written in short , simple sentences that contain
only one idea. No idioms are used.

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_English>


BillK


From eric at m056832107.syzygy.com  Tue Nov 13 20:00:14 2012
From: eric at m056832107.syzygy.com (Eric Messick)
Date: 13 Nov 2012 20:00:14 -0000
Subject: [ExI] newspeak again
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armiU_CMVxCZ77yEfVvxPr-ywARsEHC2aW39fHHLxCafA4w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <001001cdc1c3$cbfecf70$63fc6e50$@att.net>
 <CAL_armiU_CMVxCZ77yEfVvxPr-ywARsEHC2aW39fHHLxCafA4w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20121113200014.22906.qmail@syzygy.com>

><https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_English>

Ok, I can no longer resist posting the obligatory xkcd for this:

http://xkcd.com/1133/

It is a diagram of "The only space car that's taken anyone to another
world (explained using only the ten hundred words people use the most
often)."

Apparently "thousand" isn't on the list...

It would be interesting to see some sort of graph for a variety of
sources (like network news broadcasts, for example) showing how many
words they use, and how often unusual words show up.  I haven't
thought about it enough to figure out exactly what measure would work
best for the graph.  Perhaps it would be a monotonically decreasing
graph of the count of each word, sorted by frequency of use.  Simple
sources would have a narrow steep spike with no tail.

-eric


From spike66 at att.net  Tue Nov 13 21:37:17 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2012 13:37:17 -0800
Subject: [ExI] newspeak again
In-Reply-To: <20121113200014.22906.qmail@syzygy.com>
References: <001001cdc1c3$cbfecf70$63fc6e50$@att.net>
 <CAL_armiU_CMVxCZ77yEfVvxPr-ywARsEHC2aW39fHHLxCafA4w@mail.gmail.com>
 <20121113200014.22906.qmail@syzygy.com>
Message-ID: <005001cdc1e7$0f34d820$2d9e8860$@att.net>


>... On Behalf Of Eric Messick

>...  Simple sources would have a narrow steep spike with no tail.  -eric
_______________________________________________

OK I admit to being tall and skinny, but the no-tail comment is getting a
little personal.

spike

Oh wait, I get it, you are trying to reduce the number of adjectives and
write in Newspeak, OK never mind, cool.







{8^D



From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Tue Nov 13 22:01:54 2012
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2012 17:01:54 -0500
Subject: [ExI] An old skeleton tumbles out of the list closet
In-Reply-To: <0E674CDA-FBEF-4551-8CC6-E176D5333016@gmail.com>
References: <50A1765D.5030700@aleph.se>
 <2A6EABEA-8FB6-4D25-BD28-9C44F2D40AE7@gmail.com>
 <010e01cdc165$b37d1870$1a774950$@att.net>
 <CAKTCJyff_BgYgySevq077PJXmsvtJtSqXh7qACqYMmDYxGVxNA@mail.gmail.com>
 <0E674CDA-FBEF-4551-8CC6-E176D5333016@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAAc1gFhbdNK99S0ibBn_GpBOqCLk5ygj=Gx8HJbmy=QMF-H5OQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 12:40 PM, Charlie Stross
<charlie.stross at gmail.com>wrote:

Capitalism-as-practiced-in-the-United-States is *BROKEN*. Very badly broken
> indeed. Some areas still reward hard work and entrepreneurship, but for the
> most part it's all about wealth acquisition and consolidation via rent
> seeking, not wealth *production*.


### I have a great idea: Let's all petition Mr Obama to appoint a new czar,
who would simply fix capitalism!

There would a new Department of Preventing Rent-Seeking (DPRS), all
businesses would have to send in quarterly reports, in triplicate on
environmentally-correct paper, describing whatever stupid thing they want
to do next quarter, and if the Civil Service employees at the DPRS
concluded, after a careful analysis, that it is not rent-seeking, then the
capitalists could do that thing, and get ready for writing their quarterly
IRS return.

Of course, the libtards would howl that it's not capitalism, it's the
government that's broken but, why would a reasonable person pay attention
to them? After all, we the voters (plus a few percent non-existent and dead
ones, too) re-elected the top government guy, thus proving that he and his
bunch of friends in high places must be doing something right.

I am sure it will work out fine.

Rafal

PS - Just to clear up any confusion, I did not vote. I am conscientious
objector, so don't nobody blame me for nothing, please.
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From pharos at gmail.com  Tue Nov 13 22:59:32 2012
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2012 22:59:32 +0000
Subject: [ExI] An old skeleton tumbles out of the list closet
In-Reply-To: <CAAc1gFhbdNK99S0ibBn_GpBOqCLk5ygj=Gx8HJbmy=QMF-H5OQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <50A1765D.5030700@aleph.se>
 <2A6EABEA-8FB6-4D25-BD28-9C44F2D40AE7@gmail.com>
 <010e01cdc165$b37d1870$1a774950$@att.net>
 <CAKTCJyff_BgYgySevq077PJXmsvtJtSqXh7qACqYMmDYxGVxNA@mail.gmail.com>
 <0E674CDA-FBEF-4551-8CC6-E176D5333016@gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFhbdNK99S0ibBn_GpBOqCLk5ygj=Gx8HJbmy=QMF-H5OQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armhQq=xMJDznz98hX=NrxnXNGa+APXGdRyoqA017_Hg8og@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 10:01 PM, Rafal Smigrodzki wrote:
> ### I have a great idea: Let's all petition Mr Obama to appoint a new czar,
> who would simply fix capitalism!
>
> There would a new Department of Preventing Rent-Seeking (DPRS), all
> businesses would have to send in quarterly reports, in triplicate on
> environmentally-correct paper, describing whatever stupid thing they want to
> do next quarter, and if the Civil Service employees at the DPRS concluded,
> after a careful analysis, that it is not rent-seeking, then the capitalists
> could do that thing, and get ready for writing their quarterly IRS return.
>
>

Since I got my new mirror neurons injected I find that strangely I
love the government. Especially that nice Mr Cameron who says that we
are all in it together. Very comforting.


BillK


From spike66 at att.net  Wed Nov 14 00:54:53 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2012 16:54:53 -0800
Subject: [ExI] unanimous decision,
	was:  RE:  An old skeleton tumbles out of the list closet
Message-ID: <005d01cdc202$a96564d0$fc302e70$@att.net>

 

 

From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Rafal Smigrodzki



>?After all, we the voters (plus a few percent non-existent and dead ones, too) re-elected the top government guy, thus proving that he and his bunch of friends in high places must be doing something right?Rafal

 

Indeed.  There were 59 voting divisions in and around Philadelphia in which Mitt Romney received not one vote, not a single vote.  The total Obama votes in those 59 districts totaled 19,605 votes, so 19,605 to zero:

 

http://articles.philly.com/2012-11-12/news/35069785_1_romney-supporters-mitt-romney-sasha-issenberg

 

This is what I really want to know: in those 59 divisions, how many votes did Gary Johnson get?

 

spike

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From eric at m056832107.syzygy.com  Wed Nov 14 01:12:58 2012
From: eric at m056832107.syzygy.com (Eric Messick)
Date: 14 Nov 2012 01:12:58 -0000
Subject: [ExI] newspeak again
In-Reply-To: <005001cdc1e7$0f34d820$2d9e8860$@att.net>
References: <001001cdc1c3$cbfecf70$63fc6e50$@att.net>
 <CAL_armiU_CMVxCZ77yEfVvxPr-ywARsEHC2aW39fHHLxCafA4w@mail.gmail.com>
 <20121113200014.22906.qmail@syzygy.com>
 <005001cdc1e7$0f34d820$2d9e8860$@att.net>
Message-ID: <20121114011258.27189.qmail@syzygy.com>

>>... On Behalf Of Eric Messick
>>...  Simple sources would have a narrow steep spike with no tail.  -eric

"spike" <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>OK I admit to being tall and skinny, but the no-tail comment is getting a
>little personal.
>
>spike
>
>Oh wait, I get it, you are trying to reduce the number of adjectives and
>write in Newspeak, OK never mind, cool.

The word selection came out of my subconscious, but I recognized you
right away, even without the tail... :-)

-eric


From eric at m056832107.syzygy.com  Wed Nov 14 01:25:01 2012
From: eric at m056832107.syzygy.com (Eric Messick)
Date: 14 Nov 2012 01:25:01 -0000
Subject: [ExI] newspeak again
In-Reply-To: <CAAeGuv9qvcBXUsD0mp4xiTjSLTG996CFAWYaXFHjTSc0FdEJVQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <001001cdc1c3$cbfecf70$63fc6e50$@att.net>
 <CAL_armiU_CMVxCZ77yEfVvxPr-ywARsEHC2aW39fHHLxCafA4w@mail.gmail.com>
 <20121113200014.22906.qmail@syzygy.com>
 <CAAeGuv9qvcBXUsD0mp4xiTjSLTG996CFAWYaXFHjTSc0FdEJVQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20121114012501.27481.qmail@syzygy.com>

Patrick McLaren <patrickkmclaren at gmail.com> wrote:
>I do something like this in a data mining application I have been working
>on, to observe how grammar changes over time as news sources cover topics
>repeatedly in a series of articles.
>
>Typically, in order to find "unusual" words, or "interesting" words, I plot
>probability_of_at_least_one_occurrence vs. total_occurrence_in_article,
>then use a nonlinear classifier to grab all words with a significant
>occurrence that hug the y-axis.
>
>What I found was that breaking stories contain a large amount of new
>information, while subsequent stories contain almost none in comparison.
>Although this is perfectly obvious in hindsight...

So, are subsequent stories adding little or no new information on top
of the breaking story, or do they tend to have less information about
the story than the breaking story?

In other words, if you had three datasets, called P for past
background information including everything leading up to the event
you're analyzing, B for the breaking story, and S for the subsequent
story:

  Would the novelty of B with respect to P be greater than the novelty
  of S with respect to P?

or

  Is it just that S contains little novelty with respect to P + B?

The former might be interesting.  The latter, as you say, seems pretty
obvious.

-eric


From dan_ust at yahoo.com  Wed Nov 14 01:15:16 2012
From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan)
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2012 17:15:16 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ExI] An old skeleton tumbles out of the list closet
In-Reply-To: <1352855662.63564.YahooMailNeo@web126203.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <50A1765D.5030700@aleph.se>
 <2A6EABEA-8FB6-4D25-BD28-9C44F2D40AE7@gmail.com>
 <010e01cdc165$b37d1870$1a774950$@att.net>
 <1352789912.73241.YahooMailNeo@web126205.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAKTCJydzEvbRAAsSFdWtzccBB19BdXSMQDN-_v8Jv2ezkcvG3Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <1352855662.63564.YahooMailNeo@web126203.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1352855716.57463.YahooMailNeo@web126204.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

On Tuesday, November 13, 2012 2:47 AM Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:

> I think this is a good way of putting it.

I'm
 not sure who first came up with it. I first heard of it from 
left-libertarian, such as those at the Center for a Stateless Society ( http://c4ss.org/ ).

> Modern capitalism is pro-business (as in Big Business with enough
> cash to bribe the shit out of politicians and admins) as opposed to
> pro-freedom.
>
> They don't compete of quality, but they pay the regulators to create impossible
> barriers for new entrants.

I
 think that might be a little misleading. I believe businesses and many 
others have rarely had qualms about using the state (and the state has 
never been a blushing bride either:) to quash competitors, to obtain 
wealth, and so forth. This might have played out very differently in 
ancient, feudal, and monarchic states, and even in early post-monarchic 
ones. Nevertheless, it was always there.

One problem is people 
often assume if one is for free markets, one must be for businesses, but
 this is like saying if one is for freedom of sexual orientation, one is
 for a specific orientation. In fact, being for free markets should mean
 being for a certain type of process and not for certain outcomes or 
certain specific actors in that process. (Granted, one can still, say, 
be against certain outcomes. For instance, nothing wrong with saying I'm
 all for free markets, but I'd work against some outcomes that might 
happen. That doesn't mean, by the way, embracing state regulations.)

> Call me a free-market anticapitalist, with
> the additional crazy thought that freedom should include freedom to
> eat. 

I
 don't think it'd be hard, since the agricultural revolution to take 
care of feeding people solely via charity. In fact, it seems more to me 
that government interferences usually make more for food shortages than 
anything else. E.g., back in the 1980s, famine in Ethiopia was not so 
much because food just became short, but because the government 
collectivized farming there (similar to the Soviet example of farm 
collectivization leading to massive food shortages). More recent food 
price rises in the Middle East (and globally) seem more due to 
government involvement in food markets and policies that incentivize a 
shift of some food crops to fuel production as opposed to where they 
would go absent these policies. (Government involvement in food 
production and food markets is so extensive, though, it's very hard to 
think how they would look if this involvement were abolished.)

Regards,

Dan


From mbb386 at main.nc.us  Wed Nov 14 01:32:28 2012
From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB)
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2012 20:32:28 -0500
Subject: [ExI] unanimous decision,
 was:  RE:  An old skeleton tumbles out of the list closet
In-Reply-To: <005d01cdc202$a96564d0$fc302e70$@att.net>
References: <005d01cdc202$a96564d0$fc302e70$@att.net>
Message-ID: <fcf3a24935d96f67e39acb3cdd4ce143.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>



>
> Indeed.  There were 59 voting divisions in and around
> Philadelphia in which Mitt Romney received not one vote,
> not a single vote.  The total Obama votes in those 59
> districts totaled 19,605 votes, so 19,605 to zero:
>
>
>
> http://articles.philly.com/2012-11-12/news/35069785_1_romney-supporters-mitt-romney-sasha-issenberg
>
>
>
> This is what I really want to know: in those 59 divisions,
> how many votes did Gary Johnson get?
>
>

It would also be interesting to know if there were any
republican votes at all in those districts... or was
everything staight ticket democrat.

Regards,
MB



From dan_ust at yahoo.com  Wed Nov 14 01:21:38 2012
From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan)
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2012 17:21:38 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ExI] An old skeleton tumbles out of the list closet
In-Reply-To: <CAKTCJyeUSyytS1UJ3zWyNXHk3J-EuaXthe2o2fo1-8J3KjF-mQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <50A1765D.5030700@aleph.se>
 <2A6EABEA-8FB6-4D25-BD28-9C44F2D40AE7@gmail.com> <50A19891.1030607@aleph.se>
 <F7AB752B-8DF8-4F3B-86E3-7D6B418DB24B@gmail.com>
 <CAKTCJyeUSyytS1UJ3zWyNXHk3J-EuaXthe2o2fo1-8J3KjF-mQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1352856098.43341.YahooMailNeo@web126204.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

On Tuesday, November 13, 2012 6:27 AM Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:

> Not so fast Charlie, it works both ways. The government could
> reprogram soldiers by _reducing_ their empathy. I guess many
> people would sign for that against the promise of a green card.

If Dave Grossman is correct, basic training is how government militaries currently do this reprogramming. See his _On Killing: The Psychological Cost of Learning to Kill in War and Society_.

And, IIRC, for the US (and for some other nations), joining the military is one way to move the naturalization process forward. So, much of this seems to be in place.

What we might want to think about is how to prevent governments and others (after all, governments are not the only bad actors on the planet; they are merely the big players in the badness business) from reprogramming individuals or how to break the reprogramming once it's done. (To be sure, modern militaries seem to aim at creating soldiers who can shut off their empathy for the enemy in combat operations, but not for fellow soldiers and then to turn this empathy back on outside of combat operations. At least, that's the public relations on this.)

Regards,

Dan
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From atymes at gmail.com  Wed Nov 14 04:45:09 2012
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2012 20:45:09 -0800
Subject: [ExI] An old skeleton tumbles out of the list closet
In-Reply-To: <CAAc1gFhbdNK99S0ibBn_GpBOqCLk5ygj=Gx8HJbmy=QMF-H5OQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <50A1765D.5030700@aleph.se>
 <2A6EABEA-8FB6-4D25-BD28-9C44F2D40AE7@gmail.com>
 <010e01cdc165$b37d1870$1a774950$@att.net>
 <CAKTCJyff_BgYgySevq077PJXmsvtJtSqXh7qACqYMmDYxGVxNA@mail.gmail.com>
 <0E674CDA-FBEF-4551-8CC6-E176D5333016@gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFhbdNK99S0ibBn_GpBOqCLk5ygj=Gx8HJbmy=QMF-H5OQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNTR1iG2Z0Y58EP1M1g8g+qAL5jajAeRNtLyyzdT-95j4g@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 2:01 PM, Rafal Smigrodzki
<rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com> wrote:
> PS - Just to clear up any confusion, I did not vote. I am conscientious
> objector, so don't nobody blame me for nothing, please.

I blame you for not voting.  You only have the right to object if you
voted.  Besides, a third party vote is far more effective as protest
than a non-vote.


From spike66 at att.net  Wed Nov 14 06:17:01 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2012 22:17:01 -0800
Subject: [ExI] unanimous decision,
	was:  RE:  An old skeleton tumbles out of the list closet
In-Reply-To: <fcf3a24935d96f67e39acb3cdd4ce143.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
References: <005d01cdc202$a96564d0$fc302e70$@att.net>
 <fcf3a24935d96f67e39acb3cdd4ce143.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
Message-ID: <00e201cdc22f$a8f54470$fadfcd50$@att.net>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of MB
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2012 5:32 PM
To: ExI chat list
Subject: Re: [ExI] unanimous decision, was: RE: An old skeleton tumbles out
of the list closet



>
>> Indeed.  There were 59 voting divisions in and around Philadelphia in 
> which Mitt Romney received not one vote, not a single vote.  The total 
> Obama votes in those 59 districts totaled 19,605 votes, so 19,605 to zero:
>
>
http://articles.philly.com/2012-11-12/news/35069785_1_romney-supporters-mitt
-romney-sasha-issenberg
>
> This is what I really want to know: in those 59 divisions, how many 
> votes did Gary Johnson get?
>
>

>...It would also be interesting to know if there were any republican votes
at all in those districts... or was everything staight ticket democrat.
Regards, MB

_______________________________________________

Does anyone here know how to get at that kind of information?  I don't know
how the news agencies would have gotten to it if it is not public domain
data.  

This is more than just a passing interest in an irrelevant question.  As you
know I have long been suspicious of electronic voting machines.  We see
plenty of suspicious activity in a Florida congressional race in which we
may have exactly what I have been anticipating with dread: a contested
recount in which there is no paper trail.  In that case, we may never really
know who won, and forever have to take the word of whoever counted the
electronic votes.  That demonstrates that we have allowed the government to
take away our rights to elect governments, and democracy has failed.  

spike



From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Wed Nov 14 06:56:05 2012
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2012 01:56:05 -0500
Subject: [ExI] newspeak again,
 was: RE: How PISA surveys systematically overestimate Finland
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armiU_CMVxCZ77yEfVvxPr-ywARsEHC2aW39fHHLxCafA4w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <001001cdc1c3$cbfecf70$63fc6e50$@att.net>
 <CAL_armiU_CMVxCZ77yEfVvxPr-ywARsEHC2aW39fHHLxCafA4w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAAc1gFgdE--zwDWXwZtbPb9Otqgdgpz7N9QbdoT04aPTWMnOdA@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 1:04 PM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:

> Special English is written in short , simple sentences that contain
> only one idea. No idioms are used.
>
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_English>

### Ah, yes, me, age 14, minutely adjusting the dial on the radio to
detect the faint AM VOA signal from Munich, when not jammed by the
"boo-boo-boo" of government censors, rejoicing at being able to
understand this wondrous new language, from the land of the free and
the home of the brave.

Makes me misty eyed for my youth and innocence.

Rafal


From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Wed Nov 14 07:33:55 2012
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2012 02:33:55 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Conscientious objections
Message-ID: <CAAc1gFizs0+k6D9-YAERqNF1tUb_eZ0ft6Q3WhQ3cKqpcVQq9Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 11:45 PM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 2:01 PM, Rafal Smigrodzki
> <rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com> wrote:
>> PS - Just to clear up any confusion, I did not vote. I am conscientious
>> objector, so don't nobody blame me for nothing, please.
>
> I blame you for not voting.  You only have the right to object if you
> voted.  Besides, a third party vote is far more effective as protest
> than a non-vote.

### Funny, this is the second time I had this statement thrown at me
in two days, first time was from a liberal who voted for Obama.

I guess the indoctrination in favor of voting is so widespread and
deep that it unites many disparate groups.

I am human. My desires don't come into existence through the act of
voting, therefore failure to vote does not remove me from the moral
calculus ("right to object").

For a few years I tended to think that third party voting is the most
appropriate behavior for those who reject the evil inherent in the
mainstream.

I changed my mind. Voting legitimizes the state. I will have no
voluntary involvement in that.

Good people should organize for non-violent resistance through
voluntary trade, commercial security provision, refusal of
participation, civil disobedience, teaching, agitation and propaganda.
I would vote if, miraculously, there was a general election with a
party promising to end the state, dissolve or privatize all federal
agencies, and if they had a chance of winning the election.

Not going to happen.

Rafal


From atymes at gmail.com  Wed Nov 14 07:47:35 2012
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2012 23:47:35 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Conscientious objections
In-Reply-To: <CAAc1gFizs0+k6D9-YAERqNF1tUb_eZ0ft6Q3WhQ3cKqpcVQq9Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAc1gFizs0+k6D9-YAERqNF1tUb_eZ0ft6Q3WhQ3cKqpcVQq9Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNQ3oZrwp7HXn4Ed2V+mLp+PBqJyR8ZVWgi7AHhJDF81dQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 11:33 PM, Rafal Smigrodzki
<rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com> wrote:
> I am human. My desires don't come into existence through the act of
> voting, therefore failure to vote does not remove me from the moral
> calculus ("right to object").

Your hypocrisy - refusing to take effective action to register your
objection - does come into existence that way.  This hypocrisy
removes the validity of your objection.

> I changed my mind. Voting legitimizes the state. I will have no
> voluntary involvement in that.

You choose to remain within the geographic boundaries the
state has sovereignty over.  That is your voluntary involvement.

If you truly wish to have no such involvement, then leave.  Your
presence legitimizes the state by proxy, no matter how much
you wish things were otherwise.

Want to put it to the test?  Try refusing to act in accordance
with the state's laws - in particular, refusing to pay income tax.
Quite a few people legitimize the state by winding up in its
prisons that way.


From max at maxmore.com  Wed Nov 14 08:14:34 2012
From: max at maxmore.com (Max More)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2012 01:14:34 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Conscientious objections
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNQ3oZrwp7HXn4Ed2V+mLp+PBqJyR8ZVWgi7AHhJDF81dQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAc1gFizs0+k6D9-YAERqNF1tUb_eZ0ft6Q3WhQ3cKqpcVQq9Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQ3oZrwp7HXn4Ed2V+mLp+PBqJyR8ZVWgi7AHhJDF81dQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJX-7wXqZSkG-cnNZY1oNiHB06Pan9a2i0AJhN5XOdjXxF5FZA@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 12:47 AM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 11:33 PM, Rafal Smigrodzki
> <rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com> wrote:
> > I am human. My desires don't come into existence through the act of
> > voting, therefore failure to vote does not remove me from the moral
> > calculus ("right to object").
>
> Your hypocrisy - refusing to take effective action to register your
> objection - does come into existence that way.  This hypocrisy
> removes the validity of your objection.
>

How is voting "effective action"? You must know that it is, in fact,
completely ineffective. To pretend that it is effective as more than an
(invisible) act of signaling, you have to make some extreme assumptions
(the race depends on the outcome in one state, and that outcome depends on
YOUR vote).

There are many kinds of (much more effective) action than voting.

I confess, I did vote in a general election once (back in England). I
washed my hands immediately after. I won't do it again unless my views are
well represented by a third party that has some significant change of
winning.

Accusing Rafal (and, by extension, me) of hypocrisy really seems a bit
excessive. Voting is far from the only way to register one's objection. In
addition, you are logically wrong to say that hypocrisy invalidates an
objection.

--Max


-- 
Max More, PhD
Strategic Philosopher
Co-editor, *The Transhumanist Reader*
President & CEO, Alcor Life Extension Foundation
7895 E. Acoma Dr # 110
Scottsdale, AZ 85260
480/905-1906 ext 113
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From pharos at gmail.com  Wed Nov 14 09:40:32 2012
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2012 09:40:32 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Conscientious objections
In-Reply-To: <CAJX-7wXqZSkG-cnNZY1oNiHB06Pan9a2i0AJhN5XOdjXxF5FZA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAc1gFizs0+k6D9-YAERqNF1tUb_eZ0ft6Q3WhQ3cKqpcVQq9Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQ3oZrwp7HXn4Ed2V+mLp+PBqJyR8ZVWgi7AHhJDF81dQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJX-7wXqZSkG-cnNZY1oNiHB06Pan9a2i0AJhN5XOdjXxF5FZA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armgB=yu4eDnzePevmfJb3tF1hPimOhWegjnKrwOhELQz2Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 8:14 AM, Max More wrote:
> How is voting "effective action"? You must know that it is, in fact,
> completely ineffective. To pretend that it is effective as more than an
> (invisible) act of signaling, you have to make some extreme assumptions (the
> race depends on the outcome in one state, and that outcome depends on YOUR
> vote).
>
> There are many kinds of (much more effective) action than voting.
>
> I confess, I did vote in a general election once (back in England). I washed
> my hands immediately after. I won't do it again unless my views are well
> represented by a third party that has some significant change of winning.
>
>

I see voting for minority parties as essential to provoke change.
In the UK as in USA, politics is dominated by two large parties who
effectively take turns at being in charge and continuing much the same
policies as before.

Minority parties need encouragement. They are not suddenly one year
going to get 50% of the vote. They need to get 5% this year, then 7%
the next, and so on.
Opting out from voting means that minority parties have no chance of
ever changing the status quo.


BillK


From anders at aleph.se  Wed Nov 14 09:41:20 2012
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2012 09:41:20 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Conscientious objections
In-Reply-To: <CAJX-7wXqZSkG-cnNZY1oNiHB06Pan9a2i0AJhN5XOdjXxF5FZA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAc1gFizs0+k6D9-YAERqNF1tUb_eZ0ft6Q3WhQ3cKqpcVQq9Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQ3oZrwp7HXn4Ed2V+mLp+PBqJyR8ZVWgi7AHhJDF81dQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJX-7wXqZSkG-cnNZY1oNiHB06Pan9a2i0AJhN5XOdjXxF5FZA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <50A36740.8050004@aleph.se>


There is also the question what you are objecting to. The candidates, 
the current political system, the constitution, the concept of liberal 
democracy? Not voting is itself not telling much: it is better to 
explain to people what you think is wrong - that way an open society can 
start figuring out what to do about it (if anything).

In proportional voting systems there is often a "protest vote" on 
non-mainstream political parties, and it does tend to be recognized as a 
protest against the current parties (it also tends to shake things up as 
small parties with little experience get involved and typically 
selfdestruct hilariously after a while). Voters abstaining or giving 
blank votes is mostly of interest to political science people, they do 
not seem to be regarded as a protest by the typical pundit.

I'm sometimes thinking that my networking and punditry means I 
*shouldn't* vote for fairness reasons, since I do influence things more 
than the average person. But that seems spurious too. If I believe X is 
good, then I should act to make X more likely as long as the cost is not 
too large. So the real question is whether the voting itself has a too 
small effect or is to cumbersome.

-- 
Anders Sandberg,
Future of Humanity Institute
Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University



From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Wed Nov 14 10:07:16 2012
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2012 05:07:16 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Conscientious objections
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armgB=yu4eDnzePevmfJb3tF1hPimOhWegjnKrwOhELQz2Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAc1gFizs0+k6D9-YAERqNF1tUb_eZ0ft6Q3WhQ3cKqpcVQq9Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQ3oZrwp7HXn4Ed2V+mLp+PBqJyR8ZVWgi7AHhJDF81dQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJX-7wXqZSkG-cnNZY1oNiHB06Pan9a2i0AJhN5XOdjXxF5FZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armgB=yu4eDnzePevmfJb3tF1hPimOhWegjnKrwOhELQz2Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAAc1gFgviQX-a2r61CH_qkmLEt=jFNqP+jx7SoiJYaE=jAcEuw@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 4:40 AM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:

> Minority parties need encouragement. They are not suddenly one year
> going to get 50% of the vote. They need to get 5% this year, then 7%
> the next, and so on.
> Opting out from voting means that minority parties have no chance of
> ever changing the status quo.

### Minority parties in the US have no chance of ever changing the
status quo, due to the existence of the electoral college and
non-proportional voting.

The Republicrats are just two aspects of the same entity, Janus-like.
They formulate their election programs (i.e. the propaganda messages)
based on polling, focus groups, data mining and other ways of
measuring and predicting likely voting behavior. Analysis of votes
from previous elections is only a relatively minor part of the effort.
Since you can't have a large third party with any chance of success in
the system, due to its very structure, all the third party does is to
provide a redundant channel for gathering information about
preferences. Intrade and polls were remarkably accurate in predicting
the outcome of the election, showing that, well, the election itself
is superfluous.

The key to advancing the libertarian cause is not to inform Messrs
Obama and Romney we don't like them (they know and don't care), but to
propagandize against their ilk and hopefully increase the number of
people like us.

Rafal


From pharos at gmail.com  Wed Nov 14 10:23:45 2012
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2012 10:23:45 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Conscientious objections
In-Reply-To: <CAAc1gFgviQX-a2r61CH_qkmLEt=jFNqP+jx7SoiJYaE=jAcEuw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAc1gFizs0+k6D9-YAERqNF1tUb_eZ0ft6Q3WhQ3cKqpcVQq9Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQ3oZrwp7HXn4Ed2V+mLp+PBqJyR8ZVWgi7AHhJDF81dQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJX-7wXqZSkG-cnNZY1oNiHB06Pan9a2i0AJhN5XOdjXxF5FZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armgB=yu4eDnzePevmfJb3tF1hPimOhWegjnKrwOhELQz2Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFgviQX-a2r61CH_qkmLEt=jFNqP+jx7SoiJYaE=jAcEuw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armhLgCn8iU7KfqfVCs=SuhBQkXjALdQMbnV_irF0_LLdpg@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 10:07 AM, Rafal Smigrodzki  wrote:
> ### Minority parties in the US have no chance of ever changing the
> status quo, due to the existence of the electoral college and
> non-proportional voting.
>
>

Agreed, but you have to start somewhere.
The idea is that slowly minority parties will grow until they start to
be worth paying attention to. But they need votes to achieve this.

Some extreme parties will always be minority parties because their
policies will never get widespread support, but you don't know which
parties until you try.

Minority parties can affect policy change even without winning
elections. When their policies get sufficient voter approval, then the
dominant parties (for self preservation reasons) usually start to
gradually change their own policies to accommodate those of the new
boys in order to undermine their support.

You don't need to win the election to cause some policy changes.


BillK


From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Wed Nov 14 12:25:57 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2012 13:25:57 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Conscientious objections
In-Reply-To: <CAJX-7wXqZSkG-cnNZY1oNiHB06Pan9a2i0AJhN5XOdjXxF5FZA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAc1gFizs0+k6D9-YAERqNF1tUb_eZ0ft6Q3WhQ3cKqpcVQq9Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQ3oZrwp7HXn4Ed2V+mLp+PBqJyR8ZVWgi7AHhJDF81dQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJX-7wXqZSkG-cnNZY1oNiHB06Pan9a2i0AJhN5XOdjXxF5FZA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a7m-chwTUSV+7824gTZrCBYZj6XzeGnQse2740qjSwQ1g@mail.gmail.com>

On 14 November 2012 09:14, Max More <max at maxmore.com> wrote:

> How is voting "effective action"? You must know that it is, in fact,
> completely ineffective. To pretend that it is effective as more than an
> (invisible) act of signaling, you have to make some extreme assumptions
> (the race depends on the outcome in one state, and that outcome depends on
> YOUR vote).
> There are many kinds of (much more effective) action than voting.
>

I am inclined to agree. However, not voting does not represent an "action"
either. All in all, the most plausible argument against voting is that the
(minimal) time involved could be put at better use.

In fact, I have the soul-saving habit of doing at least a little something
during the election days when I am not voting that qualifies as "action"
for me, to the simbolic effect that the time spared is not owed, nor
devoted, to an indulgence to fundamental laziness... :-)

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Wed Nov 14 12:30:45 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2012 13:30:45 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Conscientious objections
In-Reply-To: <CAAc1gFgviQX-a2r61CH_qkmLEt=jFNqP+jx7SoiJYaE=jAcEuw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAc1gFizs0+k6D9-YAERqNF1tUb_eZ0ft6Q3WhQ3cKqpcVQq9Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQ3oZrwp7HXn4Ed2V+mLp+PBqJyR8ZVWgi7AHhJDF81dQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJX-7wXqZSkG-cnNZY1oNiHB06Pan9a2i0AJhN5XOdjXxF5FZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armgB=yu4eDnzePevmfJb3tF1hPimOhWegjnKrwOhELQz2Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFgviQX-a2r61CH_qkmLEt=jFNqP+jx7SoiJYaE=jAcEuw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a6-NdQdbjQbJV3pNcnaiRqB+nc-Kz=vby_5JP5C8WEqbw@mail.gmail.com>

On 14 November 2012 11:07, Rafal Smigrodzki <rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com>wrote:

> ### Minority parties in the US have no chance of ever changing the
> status quo, due to the existence of the electoral college and
> non-proportional voting.
>

Where there are no proportional electoral systems, the point of small
parties, in many cases single-issue parties, is to weigh the constituency
for their platform. In this respect, they have an influence in the sense
that large parties fine-tune their own propaganda in order to keep them
small, and above all to get the support of people who feel strongly enough
on a given subject to swing as a consequence of the position of a candidate
on the same.

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From anders at aleph.se  Wed Nov 14 12:41:22 2012
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2012 12:41:22 +0000
Subject: [ExI] social reprogramming
In-Reply-To: <F7AB752B-8DF8-4F3B-86E3-7D6B418DB24B@gmail.com>
References: <50A1765D.5030700@aleph.se>
 <2A6EABEA-8FB6-4D25-BD28-9C44F2D40AE7@gmail.com> <50A19891.1030607@aleph.se>
 <F7AB752B-8DF8-4F3B-86E3-7D6B418DB24B@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <50A39172.5030505@aleph.se>

On 13/11/2012 10:52, Charlie Stross wrote:
> On 13 Nov 2012, at 00:47, Anders Sandberg <anders at aleph.se> wrote:
>
>> Maybe the solution is just to tweak the social distance system with neurotech and artificially enlarge the empathic circle of concern to cover most of humanity. Some interesting free rider issues, but I suspect the reciprocal altruism network effects could outweigh those - and there are few things scarier than billions of caring people. Which of course shows the problem with this approach.
> We could all do with a few extra mirror neurons. (Especially if it turns out they're important for theory of mind.)
>
> Might make it hard for governments to recruit soldiers if everyone is too busy empathizing with the person in the gunsight. But I can't help thinking that if this was a universal tweak, this would be a *very* good outcome.

Even a non-universal tweak might have good effects. Increasing the 
number of people who can empatize and tolerate other far-flung people 
likely has network effects: the empathizers would act as the fibers in a 
composite matrix, strengthening the long-range links.

The issue of tuning down empathy in soldiers is nontrivial. No military 
force wants sociopaths - they are destructive to the organisation. And 
soldiers that have no empathy will not help each other well: a lot of 
military organisation requires quite a lot of comeraderie to function 
socially and practically. Presumably the goal would be to keep the 
empathic circle focused on "us", but again this is tricky: is that just 
the military itself, the civilians of the home nation, or some other 
set? Especially given the existence of vast and unexpected categories of 
not-us but not-enemies (the Red Cross, civilians from enemy countries, 
diplomats, foreigners...) getting the tuning to produce the right result 
might be very nontrivial.

A bit of collateral mistakes are normally acceptable, but if they are 
due to a deliberate intervention there *will* be finger-pointing at 
those responsible. Right now one can easily claim everything is up to 
the soldiers, but if there has been any touching of their empathy 
circuitry somebody has become partially responsible (and left a paper 
trail).



-- 
Anders Sandberg,
Future of Humanity Institute
Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University



From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Wed Nov 14 12:17:14 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2012 13:17:14 +0100
Subject: [ExI] An old skeleton tumbles out of the list closet
In-Reply-To: <CAAc1gFhbdNK99S0ibBn_GpBOqCLk5ygj=Gx8HJbmy=QMF-H5OQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <50A1765D.5030700@aleph.se>
 <2A6EABEA-8FB6-4D25-BD28-9C44F2D40AE7@gmail.com>
 <010e01cdc165$b37d1870$1a774950$@att.net>
 <CAKTCJyff_BgYgySevq077PJXmsvtJtSqXh7qACqYMmDYxGVxNA@mail.gmail.com>
 <0E674CDA-FBEF-4551-8CC6-E176D5333016@gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFhbdNK99S0ibBn_GpBOqCLk5ygj=Gx8HJbmy=QMF-H5OQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a5eb=6vAM2sTb1S6e7wqc07b-HnHa=O3K==28uDTO0VVw@mail.gmail.com>

On 13 November 2012 23:01, Rafal Smigrodzki <rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com>wrote:

> ### I have a great idea: Let's all petition Mr Obama to appoint a new
> czar, who would simply fix capitalism!
>

Mmhhh. Historical czars performed quite poorly at that, and even though
Russian capitalism was quite primitive at the time of the October
Revolution, I am not aware that the czarist regime had any real alternative
economic doctrine, at least since feodalism went out of fashion... :-)

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From anders at aleph.se  Wed Nov 14 12:53:30 2012
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2012 12:53:30 +0000
Subject: [ExI] How PISA surveys systematically overestimate Finland
In-Reply-To: <00fe01cdc15f$142a41e0$3c7ec5a0$@att.net>
References: <mailman.1.1352548802.2405.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <1352564917.831.YahooMailClassic@web114405.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
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Message-ID: <50A3944A.3080607@aleph.se>

On 13/11/2012 05:23, spike wrote:
> Being a poster-child example of an English-as-only-language speaker, I 
> have often wondered why it is we have so many different words for the 
> same thing. Seems like such a waste of perfectly good neurons to 
> remember them all.

But it is so fun to use a quirky word! Sometimes it can produce real 
poetry of language, sometimes it is just droll.

I learned from Keith that when you count technical terms and compounds, 
language lists of English find several million words. That is almost 
like the number of species in the world: imagine if each species also 
got to carry it's own word. Humans and lions of course just carry 
"human" and "lion", but above the "deliberately"-bird soars and in the 
undergrowth there are the "abligurition" beetles, "spectroradiometer" 
ants and the "sabrage" fungus.

But this is of couse just my usual ultracrepidarian opinion.

-- 
Anders Sandberg,
Future of Humanity Institute
Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University



From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Wed Nov 14 13:18:04 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2012 14:18:04 +0100
Subject: [ExI] social reprogramming
In-Reply-To: <50A39172.5030505@aleph.se>
References: <50A1765D.5030700@aleph.se>
 <2A6EABEA-8FB6-4D25-BD28-9C44F2D40AE7@gmail.com>
 <50A19891.1030607@aleph.se>
 <F7AB752B-8DF8-4F3B-86E3-7D6B418DB24B@gmail.com>
 <50A39172.5030505@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a4rdHfJrMLusivnYun_9o4e93DvrdLNhZNVDQpgf11t5w@mail.gmail.com>

On 14 November 2012 13:41, Anders Sandberg <anders at aleph.se> wrote:

> The issue of tuning down empathy in soldiers is nontrivial. No military
> force wants sociopaths - they are destructive to the organisation. And
> soldiers that have no empathy will not help each other well: a lot of
> military organisation requires quite a lot of comeraderie to function
> socially and practically. Presumably the goal would be to keep the empathic
> circle focused on "us", but again this is tricky: is that just the military
> itself, the civilians of the home nation, or some other set? Especially
> given the existence of vast and unexpected categories of not-us but
> not-enemies (the Red Cross, civilians from enemy countries, diplomats,
> foreigners...) getting the tuning to produce the right result might be very
> nontrivial.
>

I have always found bizarre the marines' code of honor described in the
movie A Few Good Man, which would go: "Corps, Detachment, God, Fatherland",
in the order. I suspect that the order has always been quite different in
European military ethics.

Moreover, behaviourist training strategies, once more at least depicted in
US movies, actually appear to aim deliberately at the development of a sort
of controlled sociopathy.

For instance, abuse by drilling sergeants is probably commonplace in
everything military, but, say, the Prussian tradition insisted on the
contrary on an extreme formalism even in the superior-to-inferior
relationship, so that I sincerely doubt that it was routine in that context
to disparage the alleged sexual conduct of the mother of a given recruitee
or to encourage troopers to write "born to kill" on their helmets.

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From anders at aleph.se  Wed Nov 14 13:40:08 2012
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2012 13:40:08 +0000
Subject: [ExI] social reprogramming
In-Reply-To: <CAPoR7a4rdHfJrMLusivnYun_9o4e93DvrdLNhZNVDQpgf11t5w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <50A1765D.5030700@aleph.se>
 <2A6EABEA-8FB6-4D25-BD28-9C44F2D40AE7@gmail.com> <50A19891.1030607@aleph.se>
 <F7AB752B-8DF8-4F3B-86E3-7D6B418DB24B@gmail.com> <50A39172.5030505@aleph.se>
 <CAPoR7a4rdHfJrMLusivnYun_9o4e93DvrdLNhZNVDQpgf11t5w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <50A39F38.6050500@aleph.se>

On 14/11/2012 13:18, Stefano Vaj wrote:
>
> Moreover, behaviourist training strategies, once more at least 
> depicted in US movies, actually appear to aim deliberately at the 
> development of a sort of controlled sociopathy.

The problem is of course that the military is no longer mainly about 
killing. Most strategists I have talked to are very clear on that (and 
typically sigh that leaders in the US military happily repeat the phrase 
without getting it). A peacekeeping or even occupying mission is all 
about psychology and sociology, and very little about shooting. 
Sociopaths are worse than useless for that. Being able to threaten to 
kill is important, but it is not really where the expected bulk of use is.

Similar to Walmart, the real future of military forces might be in their 
mastery of logistics. But I doubt any general will publicly admit it.


-- 
Anders Sandberg,
Future of Humanity Institute
Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University



From spike66 at att.net  Wed Nov 14 13:39:42 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2012 05:39:42 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Conscientious objections
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armhLgCn8iU7KfqfVCs=SuhBQkXjALdQMbnV_irF0_LLdpg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAc1gFizs0+k6D9-YAERqNF1tUb_eZ0ft6Q3WhQ3cKqpcVQq9Q@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <013301cdc26d$810a6ba0$831f42e0$@att.net>


>... On Behalf Of BillK

>...Minority parties can affect policy change even without winning
elections. ...BillK
_______________________________________________

Right.  Minority parties always get a few votes.  There is a specific reason
why I want to study those 59 voting divisions (that corresponds to a pretty
good sized neighborhood in an urban setting.)  Those 59 divisions represent
19,605 votes for Obama and not one single vote for Romney.  What I want to
know is if those 59 divisions had the usual scattering of 1 to 2 percent
votes for libertarian, green party etc, or if those 59 voting divisions
turned in nearly 20 thousand votes for Obama and no one else got any votes,
which is what I suspect.  I don't know where to find that info.

spike



From pharos at gmail.com  Wed Nov 14 14:37:34 2012
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2012 14:37:34 +0000
Subject: [ExI] social reprogramming
In-Reply-To: <50A39172.5030505@aleph.se>
References: <50A1765D.5030700@aleph.se>
 <2A6EABEA-8FB6-4D25-BD28-9C44F2D40AE7@gmail.com>
 <50A19891.1030607@aleph.se>
 <F7AB752B-8DF8-4F3B-86E3-7D6B418DB24B@gmail.com>
 <50A39172.5030505@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <CAL_armgRQ4JJxFm5t6X-_2Fs8D0Npnmy8=QTKFB_jhvF6kXtRg@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 12:41 PM, Anders Sandberg  wrote:
<snip>
> a lot of
> military organisation requires quite a lot of comeraderie to function
> socially and practically.


Did you mean 'camaraderie' or 'comradery'? Both from French camarade,
Spanish camarada, meaning "roommate".  Or am i just cavilling?   ;)


BillK


From pharos at gmail.com  Wed Nov 14 15:06:23 2012
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2012 15:06:23 +0000
Subject: [ExI] unanimous decision,
 was: RE: An old skeleton tumbles out of the list closet
In-Reply-To: <005d01cdc202$a96564d0$fc302e70$@att.net>
References: <005d01cdc202$a96564d0$fc302e70$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAL_armjtnibVe4hKKin1d+BRD3Hf=6m08jy42k=QZZcDpBXabQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 12:54 AM, spike wrote:
> Indeed.  There were 59 voting divisions in and around Philadelphia in which
> Mitt Romney received not one vote, not a single vote.  The total Obama votes
> in those 59 districts totaled 19,605 votes, so 19,605 to zero:
>
> http://articles.philly.com/2012-11-12/news/35069785_1_romney-supporters-mitt-romney-sasha-issenberg
>
> This is what I really want to know: in those 59 divisions, how many votes
> did Gary Johnson get?
>


The article you quote gives a reasonable sounding explanation for the
results. These districts are almost 100% African-American who all
voted for Obama. The electoral list (out-of-date and wrong) shows only
a handful of people recorded as Republican.

Google gives the total results for Philadelphia county.
Obama    85.2%   557024
Romney   14.1%    91840
Johnson     0.4%     2721

It doesn't seem too surprising that 59 out of 1,687 divisions had no
votes for Romney.
Probably a lot more than 59 had no votes for Johnson.

BillK


From rtomek at ceti.pl  Wed Nov 14 18:43:07 2012
From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2012 19:43:07 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [ExI] Vegetative patient free of pain
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1211141939530.13627@tau.ceti.pl>

(With regard to doing magick stuff to (half)(un)dead brains etc)

http://blogs.nature.com/news/2012/11/vegetative-patient-free-of-pain.html

Vegetative patient free of pain

13 Nov 2012 | 12:45 GMT | Posted by David Cyranoski | Category: Biology & 
Biotechnology, Health and medicine, Neuroscience 

A man thought to have been in a vegetative state for twelve years told 
doctors he is not in pain.

The patient communicated through a question-and-answer technique using 
fMRI imaging developed by University of Western Ontario???s Adrian Owen.

Owen developed the technique by asking patients diagnosed as vegetative to 
imagine doing certain common activities, such as playing tennis or walking 
through a house. These tasks produce distinct brain scans in healthy 
subjects, and the patients were shown to be produce the same results.  
Owen uses their ability to produce those distinct brain scans to ask them 
questions: for example, imagine playing tennis as a proxy for yes, walking 
through your house for no.

He confirmed the method by asking would-be vegetative state patients 
factual questions. Many were able to get them right.

Reports emerging today???of Scott Routley, a 39-year-old Canadian who had 
shown no signs of meaningful communication since a car accident 12 years 
ago???is the first example in which doctors used the technique to ask 
patients substantive questions about their own condition.

If the reports convince the medical community, it will be a triumph of the 
diagnostic technique over conventional clinical examination. It will also 
help in the care of such patients, since they could indicate pain levels 
or even convey what kind of music they wanted to hear.  Lurking in the 
background is the question that Owen still won???t ask, for lack of moral 
consensus: Do you want to die? But in the meantime, some families, like  
Routley???s, will be happily vindicated in their belief that their loved 
one is ???still there.???

Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.      **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home    **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...      **
**                                                                 **
** Tomasz Rola          mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com             **

From atymes at gmail.com  Wed Nov 14 19:00:42 2012
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2012 11:00:42 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Conscientious objections
In-Reply-To: <CAPoR7a7m-chwTUSV+7824gTZrCBYZj6XzeGnQse2740qjSwQ1g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAc1gFizs0+k6D9-YAERqNF1tUb_eZ0ft6Q3WhQ3cKqpcVQq9Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQ3oZrwp7HXn4Ed2V+mLp+PBqJyR8ZVWgi7AHhJDF81dQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJX-7wXqZSkG-cnNZY1oNiHB06Pan9a2i0AJhN5XOdjXxF5FZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a7m-chwTUSV+7824gTZrCBYZj6XzeGnQse2740qjSwQ1g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNQyUCjibTNEcaguy0zFR=TSvD555=H2WziWk81xGwtv5g@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 4:25 AM, Stefano Vaj <stefano.vaj at gmail.com> wrote:
> I am inclined to agree. However, not voting does not represent an "action"
> either. All in all, the most plausible argument against voting is that the
> (minimal) time involved could be put at better use.
>
> In fact, I have the soul-saving habit of doing at least a little something
> during the election days when I am not voting that qualifies as "action" for
> me, to the simbolic effect that the time spared is not owed, nor devoted, to
> an indulgence to fundamental laziness... :-)

Well said, and the first plausible alternative to voting that I have heard
in...a long time at least, possibly ever.

Not voting, and doing no effective alternative, is simply doing nothing.
It is not a protest - it is, essentially, passive acceptance of the
results, no matter what one might claim otherwise.

On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 12:14 AM, Max More <max at maxmore.com> wrote:
> How is voting "effective action"? You must know that it is, in fact,
> completely ineffective. To pretend that it is effective as more than an
> (invisible) act of signaling, you have to make some extreme assumptions (the
> race depends on the outcome in one state, and that outcome depends on YOUR
> vote).

Not so much.  As pointed out already, even if third parties have no
chance of winning *yet*, if they at least lose by less-bad margins,
that sets the stage for them to be able to win in later elections.

Further, by refusing to vote in US elections just because the
Presidential race is not significantly affected by single votes, that
means one also does not vote in state and local races, where one
vote can have more of an effect.

For example, California's Proposition 37 - which would have
required vague but scary labeling of many GMO foods, and was
basically anti-science - lost 4,845,291 to 4,285,787.  That's about
560K difference - and while, yes, 1/560K is still not much, it's far
more impact than any single vote in California had on the
Presidential race.

Better example: Santa Clara County's Measure M, a proposal to
cap the local hospital's administrators' salaries to twice the
state Governor's pay.  That is, the execs were making about
$600K; this cut their pay to about $200K.  Passed 24,477 to
22,709 - a difference of only 1,768 votes.  And yet, the Yes on M
side had virtually (maybe literally) no funding for a campaign,
while the No on M side was funded with the hospital's money.
The argument was the typical "but other execs of this type of
organization are making absurd salaries, so we need to pay
absurd salaries too" - and from what I'm hearing, that's why the
measure lost.  This could set a precedent for similarly libertarian
laws elsewhere.  If a couple thousand more libertarians had
decided to skip voting because California's Presidential vote was
in the can, well...I do believe that's similar to the tragedy of the
commons?

> There are many kinds of (much more effective) action than voting.

This is true.  However, the argument is usually phrased as voting
or doing nothing, and this case was no exception.  No more
effective alternatives were presented or seriously considered.

> In
> addition, you are logically wrong to say that hypocrisy invalidates an
> objection.

Depends on which meaning of "invalidates" you are talking about.
I'm talking about the ability to convince people - which, I'll admit,
is not so amenable to logic, but is the ultimate external objective
of objecting.  Claiming to believe a thing, but then taking actions
that undermine that thing, makes it less credible that one actually
believes that thing, and thus fails to convince others to likewise
believe that thing.

Which gets to the point: by not voting (in a US or similar
election), one is placing a nonzero external cost on the rest of
the community to support one's views.  This may be almost
imperceptibly tiny at federal levels (the Presidential race), but
it exists nonetheless - and it gets larger for more local races,
which are not excused merely because the Presidential race
is on the same ballot.  If one fails to convince the community,
then this cost is not paid - in other words, one's objection is
invalidated.


From spike66 at att.net  Wed Nov 14 21:02:47 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2012 13:02:47 -0800
Subject: [ExI] unanimous decision,
	was: RE: An old skeleton tumbles out of the list closet
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armjtnibVe4hKKin1d+BRD3Hf=6m08jy42k=QZZcDpBXabQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <005d01cdc202$a96564d0$fc302e70$@att.net>
 <CAL_armjtnibVe4hKKin1d+BRD3Hf=6m08jy42k=QZZcDpBXabQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <018701cdc2ab$673b2d20$35b18760$@att.net>


>... On Behalf Of BillK
...
>
>>... This is what I really want to know: in those 59 divisions, how many
votes did Gary Johnson get?
>


>...The article you quote gives a reasonable sounding explanation for the
results. These districts are almost 100% African-American who all voted for
Obama. The electoral list (out-of-date and wrong) shows only a handful of
people recorded as Republican.

>...Google gives the total results for Philadelphia county.
Obama    85.2%   557024
Romney   14.1%    91840
Johnson     0.4%     2721

>...It doesn't seem too surprising that 59 out of 1,687 divisions had no
votes for Romney.
Probably a lot more than 59 had no votes for Johnson...BillK
_______________________________________________

BillK, this almost gets there, but here's where I am going with it: those
divisions in which there were no Romney votes could reasonably be expected
to have had perhaps a tenth of a percent Johnson votes.  All the other
minority parties combined should have picked up a few tenths of a percent.
You have a few stray votes which are just errors, you have a few
iconoclasts, you have a few African-Americans who despise Obama because they
think he isn't nearly far enough left and didn't do nearly enough for the
African-American community and know he is likely the last black president
they will see in their lifetimes.  This guy is one example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BB9f_7px-g

If we look at those 59 divisions and find that those 19,605 votes contained
zero Romney, zero Johnson, zero Jill Stein, zero Virgil Goode,  zero Rocky
Anderson, zero Rosanne Barr, zero Pat Paulsen, zero write-ins, then I will
be convinced to my satisfaction that this election was bogus.  But if all
the non-Obama votes combined add up to even a tenth of a percent, or about
20 votes, then I will think otherwise.  Anyone who has ever served on a jury
knows how difficult it is to get even twelve people to agree even when the
evidence is overwhelming will know that any unanimous opinion of those
19,605 is as phony as a three dollar bill.

spike





From msd001 at gmail.com  Wed Nov 14 21:09:46 2012
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2012 16:09:46 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Conscientious objections
In-Reply-To: <50A36740.8050004@aleph.se>
References: <CAAc1gFizs0+k6D9-YAERqNF1tUb_eZ0ft6Q3WhQ3cKqpcVQq9Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQ3oZrwp7HXn4Ed2V+mLp+PBqJyR8ZVWgi7AHhJDF81dQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJX-7wXqZSkG-cnNZY1oNiHB06Pan9a2i0AJhN5XOdjXxF5FZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <50A36740.8050004@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <CAOJFdb+QOud_kwxKwUWwViLH-MQ9=SVTpqbvwZ-nJzEb3PhSNQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 4:41 AM, Anders Sandberg <anders at aleph.se> wrote:
>
> There is also the question what you are objecting to. The candidates, the
> current political system, the constitution, the concept of liberal
> democracy? Not voting is itself not telling much: it is better to explain to
> people what you think is wrong - that way an open society can start figuring
> out what to do about it (if anything).

I'm objecting to further removal of choice that this represents:
http://triblive.com/news/2950414-74/turnpike-toll-electronic-pennsylvania-zpass-cash-move-pay-tolls-agency#axzz2CDzC8rR2

I understand EZpass is great (for those who think so). I also
understand that those who think it's great want to force it on
everyone else and that objection is met with a strong suggestions to
"get with the program" or to update your world-view to make life
easier on everyone.  I protest that this makes life easier only for
the already-too-big government; everyone else has burden-of-proof that
license-plate photos are an accurate way to establish billing.

A similar "convenience" is the grocery store self-checkout.  The store
saves payroll by eliminating register operators (who have
muscle-memory for scanning UPC and system knowledge orders of
magnitude beyond my own)  They can claim there are 10 lanes open so I
never have to wait - but instead I have to do all the work.  Where is
the value in this proposition?  None to me, all to the store.  It has
negative value to the three out of four cashiers who lose their jobs.

But you know as long as the majority of cattle continue up the ramp
the non-consenting minority are of little consequence.


From pharos at gmail.com  Wed Nov 14 21:38:51 2012
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2012 21:38:51 +0000
Subject: [ExI] unanimous decision,
 was: RE: An old skeleton tumbles out of the list closet
In-Reply-To: <018701cdc2ab$673b2d20$35b18760$@att.net>
References: <005d01cdc202$a96564d0$fc302e70$@att.net>
 <CAL_armjtnibVe4hKKin1d+BRD3Hf=6m08jy42k=QZZcDpBXabQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <018701cdc2ab$673b2d20$35b18760$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAL_armifC-jJUohSfm0VsetqpBgf17DikB6GLz-0S_aqRYUrfA@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 9:02 PM, spike wrote:
> If we look at those 59 divisions and find that those 19,605 votes contained
> zero Romney, zero Johnson, zero Jill Stein, zero Virgil Goode,  zero Rocky
> Anderson, zero Rosanne Barr, zero Pat Paulsen, zero write-ins, then I will
> be convinced to my satisfaction that this election was bogus.  But if all
> the non-Obama votes combined add up to even a tenth of a percent, or about
> 20 votes, then I will think otherwise.  Anyone who has ever served on a jury
> knows how difficult it is to get even twelve people to agree even when the
> evidence is overwhelming will know that any unanimous opinion of those
> 19,605 is as phony as a three dollar bill.
>
>

Hey, Spike.  :)  If yo is the one unhappy Republican living among
20,000 African American Obama supporters are you really going to
bother getting off your couch and go and record your useless vote?
Remember the neighbourhood you are talking about. This isn't Beverly Hills.


BillK


From max at maxmore.com  Wed Nov 14 21:41:37 2012
From: max at maxmore.com (Max More)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2012 14:41:37 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Conscientious objections
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNQyUCjibTNEcaguy0zFR=TSvD555=H2WziWk81xGwtv5g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAc1gFizs0+k6D9-YAERqNF1tUb_eZ0ft6Q3WhQ3cKqpcVQq9Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQ3oZrwp7HXn4Ed2V+mLp+PBqJyR8ZVWgi7AHhJDF81dQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJX-7wXqZSkG-cnNZY1oNiHB06Pan9a2i0AJhN5XOdjXxF5FZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a7m-chwTUSV+7824gTZrCBYZj6XzeGnQse2740qjSwQ1g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQyUCjibTNEcaguy0zFR=TSvD555=H2WziWk81xGwtv5g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJX-7wUbznHOre+Eyxji_OgX-JmuHSXQxdON8TLTOkE+0uGT8Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 12:00 PM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:

>
> Further, by refusing to vote in US elections just because the
> Presidential race is not significantly affected by single votes, that
> means one also does not vote in state and local races, where one
> vote can have more of an effect.
>
> For example, California's Proposition 37 - which would have
> required vague but scary labeling of many GMO foods, and was
> basically anti-science - lost 4,845,291 to 4,285,787.  That's about
> 560K difference - and while, yes, 1/560K is still not much, it's far
> more impact than any single vote in California had on the
> Presidential race.
>

I'm not opposed to voting for or against Propositions, where they may be a
much closer margin and fewer voters. This is also a more consent-rich vote,
since it's on a single issue, rather than support for a person or party.

I don't see voting/not-voting in such black and white terms -- as you
seemed to, given your use of "hypocrisy" and so on. Some of my best friends
vote in presidential elections. Your opposition to those of us who won't
vote (in general elections) presumably is not as strong as this woman's:

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/police-woman-runs-husband-voting-17716450#.UKQP14ZU2So

--Max



-- 
Max More, PhD
Strategic Philosopher
Co-editor, *The Transhumanist Reader*
President & CEO, Alcor Life Extension Foundation
7895 E. Acoma Dr # 110
Scottsdale, AZ 85260
480/905-1906 ext 113
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From dan_ust at yahoo.com  Wed Nov 14 22:33:04 2012
From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2012 14:33:04 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ExI] An old skeleton tumbles out of the list closet
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNTR1iG2Z0Y58EP1M1g8g+qAL5jajAeRNtLyyzdT-95j4g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <50A1765D.5030700@aleph.se>
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Message-ID: <1352932384.1408.YahooMailNeo@web126203.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>



On Tuesday, November 13, 2012 11:45 PM Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 2:01 PM, Rafal Smigrodzki <rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com> wrote:
>> PS - Just to clear up any confusion, I did not vote. I am conscientious
>> objector, so don't nobody blame me for nothing, please.
>
> I blame you for not voting.? You only have the right to object if you
> voted.? Besides, a third party vote is far more effective as protest
> than a non-vote.

Some make a strong moral argument against sanctioning the state by voting. In which case, those who do vote are sanctioning both the state and the outcome and are to blame, to some degree, for both. This is the basic voluntaryist position as I understand it and outlined in "Neither Bullets Nor Ballots." See http://www.wendymcelroy.com/vlntryst/1nbnb.html

But setting that aside, since I'm gathering you would not accept and might even dismiss out of hand such an argument, the practical matter is that Rafal's vote, even his protest vote, doesn't count and has negligible impact. From my perspective, if he expends more efforts in other forms of activism, he's likely to have a far bigger impact. After all, it's not like voting is the one and only means of social change or the only way to register a protest against the regime. And there's also the psychologically negative impact of voting time and again as a protest where it has no impact. For some, that can wear them down to the point where they just give up entirely.

Regards,

Dan




From atymes at gmail.com  Wed Nov 14 22:38:07 2012
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2012 14:38:07 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Conscientious objections
In-Reply-To: <CAJX-7wUbznHOre+Eyxji_OgX-JmuHSXQxdON8TLTOkE+0uGT8Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAc1gFizs0+k6D9-YAERqNF1tUb_eZ0ft6Q3WhQ3cKqpcVQq9Q@mail.gmail.com>
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On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 1:41 PM, Max More <max at maxmore.com> wrote:
> I don't see voting/not-voting in such black and white terms -- as you seemed
> to, given your use of "hypocrisy" and so on. Some of my best friends vote in
> presidential elections.

Not voting externalizes your costs there onto the rest of us
who generally agree with your political preferences.  It may
be a very tiny amount, but it is nonzero.  The right thing to
do, IMO, is to vote in such cases.


From spike66 at att.net  Wed Nov 14 22:58:10 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2012 14:58:10 -0800
Subject: [ExI] unanimous decision,
	was: RE: An old skeleton tumbles out of the list closet
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armifC-jJUohSfm0VsetqpBgf17DikB6GLz-0S_aqRYUrfA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <005d01cdc202$a96564d0$fc302e70$@att.net>
 <CAL_armjtnibVe4hKKin1d+BRD3Hf=6m08jy42k=QZZcDpBXabQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <018701cdc2ab$673b2d20$35b18760$@att.net>
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Message-ID: <01d001cdc2bb$856fc520$904f4f60$@att.net>


>... On Behalf Of BillK

On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 9:02 PM, spike wrote:
>>... If we look at those 59 divisions and find that those 19,605 votes 
> contained zero Romney, zero Johnson, zero Jill Stein, zero Virgil 
> Goode,  zero Rocky Anderson, zero Rosanne Barr, zero Pat Paulsen, zero 
> write-ins, then I will be convinced to my satisfaction that this 
> election was bogus...
>

>...Hey, Spike.  :)  If yo is the one unhappy Republican living among
20,000 African American Obama supporters are you really going to bother
getting off your couch and go and record your useless vote?
Remember the neighbourhood you are talking about. This isn't Beverly
Hills...BillK
_______________________________________________

Granted, and you make my point exactly.  I am not talking about Republicans
at all.  I have already written off their existence in those neighborhoods.
But the voter error rate is not exactly zero.  Of 19,605 enthusiastic and
unanimous voters, always a few tenths of a percent will be stoned, drunk,
stupid, dyslexic, use a faulty voting machine, etc.  So if there even twenty
non-Obama votes, I believe.  If there are exactly zero non-Obamas out of
that 19,605 votes, then the result is bogus.  What I want to know is in
those 59 divisions, are about twenty, or are there exactly zero, non-Obama
votes.

spike



From dan_ust at yahoo.com  Wed Nov 14 23:00:34 2012
From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2012 15:00:34 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ExI] Conscientious objections
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNQ3oZrwp7HXn4Ed2V+mLp+PBqJyR8ZVWgi7AHhJDF81dQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAc1gFizs0+k6D9-YAERqNF1tUb_eZ0ft6Q3WhQ3cKqpcVQq9Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQ3oZrwp7HXn4Ed2V+mLp+PBqJyR8ZVWgi7AHhJDF81dQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1352934034.99518.YahooMailNeo@web126206.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

On Wednesday, November 14, 2012 2:47 AM Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 11:33 PM, Rafal Smigrodzki <rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com> wrote:
>> I am human. My desires don't come into existence through the act of
>> voting, therefore failure to vote does not remove me from the moral
>> calculus ("right to object").
>
> Your hypocrisy - refusing to take effective action to register your
> objection - does come into existence that way.? This hypocrisy
> removes the validity of your objection.

I don't think it's hypocrisy at all. Hypocrisy is when one puts on appearances, no? Rafal is not doing that. He's stated why he didn't vote. You might disagree with his reasons, but that's not hypocrisy -- unless you're going to hold that disagreement with you alone is hypocritical. Surely, you don't take that position.

>> I changed my mind. Voting legitimizes the state. I will have no
>> voluntary involvement in that.
>
> You choose to remain within the geographic boundaries the
> state has sovereignty over.? That is your voluntary involvement.

It's not voluntary at all -- no more than, say, if you hand over your money to an armed robber you are voluntarily consenting to the exchange. In fact, in political terms, consent really should be -- if it's to be consistent and make sense -- express consent where someone openly expresses her or his consent for a specific action, condition, or policy. Otherwise, I can state that your lack of active resistance in something is consent. Thus, the Jews who didn't actively resist being hauled off to death camps, consented by that standard.

> If you truly wish to have no such involvement, then leave.? Your
> presence legitimizes the state by proxy, no matter how much
> you wish things were otherwise.

I think that's also not so. He doesn't want to, in my understanding, legitimize the state via participating in voting. Simply living inside a region a state happens to control is not consent and doesn't legitimize it as such -- any more than in my previous example: going along with the armed robber doesn't legitimize her or his claim to your money.

> Want to put it to the test?? Try refusing to act in accordance
> with the state's laws - in particular, refusing to pay income tax.
> Quite a few people legitimize the state by winding up in its
> prisons that way.

This seems rather silly. People can withhold moral support for something by not pretending to go along with the forms and rituals of that thing. Not voting and actually telling people about this is actually a good means to start up a conversation about state legitimacy (or lack thereof). Yes, it's likely many if not most people will disagree and respond with the knee jerk "if you didn't vote, you can't complain" line, but a few might listen.

Simply participating in voting doesn't do much. One vote out of thousand or millions doesn't count unless there's a really close race. And participating is likely to persuade people you go along with the whole sham. Let's say Rafal did vote. Who would he vote for? Let's say he voted for the LP candidate -- though, IIRC, Rafal is an anarchist like me, so why the LP? Did the LP candidate even get enough votes to do anything? Is either national party in fear that the LP (or any other third party) is stealing votes from them? Are the analysts even looking at the LP? It seems like he might just as well have voted for anyone at random and had the exact same impact: which is no impact.

(On this, see also Bryan Caplan's _The Myth of the Rational Voter: Why Democracies Choose Bad Policies_. Caplan has some good observations on how the cost and impact of voting and of supporting political positions in general is negligible such that this allows people to hold all kinds of ridiculous and wrong views. He focuses on bad economic views -- in fact, the same economic fallacies that have been time and again refuted since David Hume's time -- are easy to hold because each individual vote doesn't count, so the cost of the bad position doesn't really matter all that much. By the way, that the same fallacies keep cropping up, over and over, to me hints that there might be some room for an evolutionary psychology explanation here. A systematic bias across generations and cultures for the same kind of wrong ideas seems to show that humans are somehow evolved to hold the wrong ideas -- not exactly that the ideas are innate, but that humans brains seem
 to easily fall into the fallacies.*)

Regards,

Dan

* See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Myth_of_the_Rational_Voter for a summary of the four biases Caplan deals with in his book. Regardless of one's political philosophy, at least two of his biases seem uncontroversial: pessimistic bias and anti-foreign bias. The former seems to happen regardless of how well things turn out. People just assume things are always getting worse and worse, even when their fortunes are actually doing better. For instance, with the recent financial crisis, yes, things are bad, but are they really bad as the 1970s or the 1930s? Doubtful.
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From spike66 at att.net  Wed Nov 14 23:17:22 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2012 15:17:22 -0800
Subject: [ExI] unanimous decision,
	was: RE: An old skeleton tumbles out of the list closet
In-Reply-To: <01d001cdc2bb$856fc520$904f4f60$@att.net>
References: <005d01cdc202$a96564d0$fc302e70$@att.net>
 <CAL_armjtnibVe4hKKin1d+BRD3Hf=6m08jy42k=QZZcDpBXabQ@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <01d901cdc2be$33d033f0$9b709bd0$@att.net>


>... On Behalf Of spike

>...  If there are exactly zero non-Obamas out of that 19,605 votes, then
the result is bogus.  What I want to know is in those 59 divisions, are
about twenty, or are there exactly zero, non-Obama votes.  spike

_______________________________________________

It would be even more interesting if we discover that in those 59 divisions,
there is exactly one non-Obama vote, one.  We know how to explain about 20,
we know how to explain exactly zero.  But how would we explain it if there
is exactly one non-Obama vote of 19,605?  The next questions are obvious: is
that dataset available?  Where?

spike



From clementlawyer at gmail.com  Wed Nov 14 23:36:43 2012
From: clementlawyer at gmail.com (James Clement)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2012 18:36:43 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Conscientious objections
In-Reply-To: <1352934034.99518.YahooMailNeo@web126206.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <CAAc1gFizs0+k6D9-YAERqNF1tUb_eZ0ft6Q3WhQ3cKqpcVQq9Q@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CA+LBAbS+XVDqRrxJWZ+iykGfRMYo9ZRxz-z3Yxs4jEsVCWkPYg@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 6:00 PM, Dan <dan_ust at yahoo.com> wrote:

>
> >> I changed my mind. Voting legitimizes the state. I will have no
> >> voluntary involvement in that.
> >
> > You choose to remain within the geographic boundaries the
> > state has sovereignty over.  That is your voluntary involvement.
>
> It's not voluntary at all -- no more than, say, if you hand over your
> money to an armed robber you are voluntarily consenting to the exchange. In
> fact, in political terms, consent really should be -- if it's to be
> consistent and make sense -- express consent where someone openly expresses
> her or his consent for a specific action, condition, or policy. Otherwise,
> I can state that your lack of active resistance in something is consent.
> Thus, the Jews who didn't actively resist being hauled off to death camps,
> consented by that standard.
>
> > If you truly wish to have no such involvement, then leave.  Your
> > presence legitimizes the state by proxy, no matter how much
> > you wish things were otherwise.
>
> I think that's also not so. He doesn't want to, in my understanding,
> legitimize the state via participating in voting. Simply living inside a
> region a state happens to control is not consent and doesn't legitimize it
> as such -- any more than in my previous example: going along with the armed
> robber doesn't legitimize her or his claim to your money.
>
> > Want to put it to the test?  Try refusing to act in accordance
> > with the state's laws - in particular, refusing to pay income tax.
> > Quite a few people legitimize the state by winding up in its
> > prisons that way.
>
> This seems rather silly. People can withhold moral support for something
> by not pretending to go along with the forms and rituals of that thing. Not
> voting and actually telling people about this is actually a good means to
> start up a conversation about state legitimacy (or lack thereof). Yes, it's
> likely many if not most people will disagree and respond with the knee jerk
> "if you didn't vote, you can't complain" line, but a few might listen.
>
> Simply participating in voting doesn't do much. One vote out of thousand
> or millions doesn't count unless there's a really close race. And
> participating is likely to persuade people you go along with the whole
> sham. Let's say Rafal did vote. Who would he vote for? Let's say he voted
> for the LP candidate -- though, IIRC, Rafal is an anarchist like me, so why
> the LP? Did the LP candidate even get enough votes to do anything? Is
> either national party in fear that the LP (or any other third party) is
> stealing votes from them? Are the analysts even looking at the LP? It seems
> like he might just as well have voted for anyone at random and had the
> exact same impact: which is no impact.
>
> (On this, see also Bryan Caplan's _The Myth of the Rational Voter: Why
> Democracies Choose Bad Policies_. Caplan has some good observations on how
> the cost and impact of voting and of supporting political positions in
> general is negligible such that this allows people to hold all kinds of
> ridiculous and wrong views. He focuses on bad economic views -- in fact,
> the same economic fallacies that have been time and again refuted since
> David Hume's time -- are easy to hold because each individual vote doesn't
> count, so the cost of the bad position doesn't really matter all that much.
> By the way, that the same fallacies keep cropping up, over and over, to me
> hints that there might be some room for an evolutionary psychology
> explanation here. A systematic bias across generations and cultures for the
> same kind of wrong ideas seems to show that humans are somehow evolved to
> hold the wrong ideas -- not exactly that the ideas are innate, but that
> humans brains seem to easily fall into the fallacies.*)
>
> Regards,
>
> Dan
>
> * See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Myth_of_the_Rational_Voter for a
> summary of the four biases Caplan deals with in his book. Regardless of
> one's political philosophy, at least two of his biases seem
> uncontroversial: pessimistic bias and anti-foreign bias. The former seems
> to happen regardless of how well things turn out. People just assume things
> are always getting worse and worse, even when their fortunes are actually
> doing better. For instance, with the recent financial crisis, yes, things
> are bad, but are they really bad as the 1970s or the 1930s? Doubtful.
>


Very well said, Dan.

As an Anarcho-Capitalist <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcho-capitalism>/
Agorist <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agorism>, I concur that it's
unreasonable to insist that living in a geographical location is automatic
consent to the governance of that location by a State. A State is a legal
fiction we substitute for the people who claim power over other people's
lives, usually at the point of a gun. If these people lose their control
over a location, including by way of the passive disobedience of residents
of that location, then the fiction of the State will become far more
obvious.

Thanks,
James

>
>
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From spike66 at att.net  Thu Nov 15 00:54:47 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2012 16:54:47 -0800
Subject: [ExI] unanimous decision,
	was: RE: An old skeleton tumbles out of the list closet
In-Reply-To: <01d901cdc2be$33d033f0$9b709bd0$@att.net>
References: <005d01cdc202$a96564d0$fc302e70$@att.net>
 <CAL_armjtnibVe4hKKin1d+BRD3Hf=6m08jy42k=QZZcDpBXabQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <018701cdc2ab$673b2d20$35b18760$@att.net>
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Message-ID: <000601cdc2cb$da8e2230$8faa6690$@att.net>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of spike
...

_______________________________________________

>...It would be even more interesting if we discover that in those 59
divisions, there is exactly one non-Obama vote, one.  We know how to explain
about 20, we know how to explain exactly zero.  But how would we explain it
if there is exactly one non-Obama vote of 19,605?  The next questions are
obvious: is that dataset available?  Where?  spike

_______________________________________________

Scratch that, there would need to be about eight non-Obama votes, at least
one for each non-Obama candidate.  Then if the results are published, all
the votes for any non-Obama candidate would assume that one vote was
himself.  I can imagine the problems if a couple who were for instance,
personal friends of Roseanne Barr, would see Barr only received one vote.
Each would doubt the other.  So, we know there were zero Romney votes in
that 19,605.  Was there exactly one vote for each of the other candidates?

spike



From msd001 at gmail.com  Thu Nov 15 01:25:01 2012
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2012 20:25:01 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Conscientious objections
In-Reply-To: <CA+LBAbS+XVDqRrxJWZ+iykGfRMYo9ZRxz-z3Yxs4jEsVCWkPYg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAc1gFizs0+k6D9-YAERqNF1tUb_eZ0ft6Q3WhQ3cKqpcVQq9Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQ3oZrwp7HXn4Ed2V+mLp+PBqJyR8ZVWgi7AHhJDF81dQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <1352934034.99518.YahooMailNeo@web126206.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CA+LBAbS+XVDqRrxJWZ+iykGfRMYo9ZRxz-z3Yxs4jEsVCWkPYg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOJFdbK9QL2Hj6s9OH-ateSdDpnBJHZdfYVZCttHL0h_V9ttfw@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 6:36 PM, James Clement <clementlawyer at gmail.com> wrote:
> As an Anarcho-Capitalist / Agorist, I concur that it's unreasonable to
> insist that living in a geographical location is automatic consent to the
> governance of that location by a State. A State is a legal fiction we
> substitute for the people who claim power over other people's lives, usually
> at the point of a gun. If these people lose their control over a location,
> including by way of the passive disobedience of residents of that location,
> then the fiction of the State will become far more obvious.

Isn't "the State" as likely to treat you as a criminal for your
disobedience no matter how passive?


From spike66 at att.net  Thu Nov 15 01:34:24 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2012 17:34:24 -0800
Subject: [ExI] unanimous decision,
	was: RE: An old skeleton tumbles out of the list closet
In-Reply-To: <01d001cdc2bb$856fc520$904f4f60$@att.net>
References: <005d01cdc202$a96564d0$fc302e70$@att.net>
 <CAL_armjtnibVe4hKKin1d+BRD3Hf=6m08jy42k=QZZcDpBXabQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <018701cdc2ab$673b2d20$35b18760$@att.net>
 <CAL_armifC-jJUohSfm0VsetqpBgf17DikB6GLz-0S_aqRYUrfA@mail.gmail.com>
 <01d001cdc2bb$856fc520$904f4f60$@att.net>
Message-ID: <002a01cdc2d1$5893d850$09bb88f0$@att.net>

>...From: Kevin Cadmus [mailto:kcadmus at gmail.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2012 3:34 PM
To: ExI chat list
Subject: Re: [ExI] unanimous decision, was: RE: An old skeleton tumbles out
of the list closet

>...A bit of math leads me to think the result is not so unbelievable at
all:

>...67000 votes in 1687 divisions gives approximate 40 voters per average
division

>...Let's say that 500 of the 1687 divisions are essentially racially
homogeneous, namely 100% African American.

>...Let's say that we might expect 95% of voters in these 500 divisions to
be Obama voters.

>...Taking 0.95 to the 40th power should give the probability that all 40
voters in one of these 500 districts would vote for for Obama.

>...But 0.95 to the 40th power is 0.1285.

>...So wouldn't you expect approximately 500 * 0.1285 districts to be
unanimous?

-Kevin


There were 19,605 votes in 59 unanimous divisions, so best case for the null
hypothesis (no funny business with the voting machines) is to average: about
330 voters per division.  Kevin, let us assume your numbers, 95% of the
voters in those divisions to be Obama voters.  (0.95)^330 = 4e-8.  So we
would expect about 0.04 parts per million probability that there would be a
unanimous vote in any given division in such a case.  We are told that
5,596,499 votes were cast in Pennsylvania, so using the above numbers,
that's 17,000 voting divisions, so we would expect about 0.00067 unanimous
divisions, rather than the 59 seen, or about 88,000 times higher than we
would expect.  That's the best case.  If we change the distribution of those
19,605 votes over the 59 unanimous divisions, the probability of their all
coming out unanimous goes down from there.

But the critical question is if the number of Johnson and Stein (et.al)
votes in those zero-Romney divisions also went to zero.  If so, then the
error rate in those divisions is also zero, shaming those Florida voters
from 2000 who claimed errors when they accidentally voted for the wrong guy.
Pennsylvania voters don't make mistakes apparently, but Florida voters do,
enough to actually tip an entire election.  

Or alternatively, can we find any divisions in which the Romney vote was
zero but the other candidates were non-zero?  Is there anywhere we can find
that info?  Or is that info intentionally held from the public?

spike



From clementlawyer at gmail.com  Thu Nov 15 02:05:12 2012
From: clementlawyer at gmail.com (James Clement)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2012 21:05:12 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Conscientious objections
In-Reply-To: <CAOJFdbK9QL2Hj6s9OH-ateSdDpnBJHZdfYVZCttHL0h_V9ttfw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAc1gFizs0+k6D9-YAERqNF1tUb_eZ0ft6Q3WhQ3cKqpcVQq9Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQ3oZrwp7HXn4Ed2V+mLp+PBqJyR8ZVWgi7AHhJDF81dQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <1352934034.99518.YahooMailNeo@web126206.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CA+LBAbS+XVDqRrxJWZ+iykGfRMYo9ZRxz-z3Yxs4jEsVCWkPYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOJFdbK9QL2Hj6s9OH-ateSdDpnBJHZdfYVZCttHL0h_V9ttfw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+LBAbR6VLQ-A1wef01kQmV9+ay6=8AGLKc1S_fRtVsp6romfw@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 8:25 PM, Mike Dougherty <msd001 at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 6:36 PM, James Clement <clementlawyer at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > As an Anarcho-Capitalist / Agorist, I concur that it's unreasonable to
> > insist that living in a geographical location is automatic consent to the
> > governance of that location by a State. A State is a legal fiction we
> > substitute for the people who claim power over other people's lives,
> usually
> > at the point of a gun. If these people lose their control over a
> location,
> > including by way of the passive disobedience of residents of that
> location,
> > then the fiction of the State will become far more obvious.
>
> Isn't "the State" as likely to treat you as a criminal for your
> disobedience no matter how passive?
>

The people who represent the legal fiction we refer to as a State may
absolutely treat dissenters, however passive, as law-breakers, and attempt
to punish them. For example, it's illegal to merely hold up a placard that
disparages the President, unless you are located within a designated "free
speech zones,"<http://www.aclu.org/blog/free-speech/how-big-deal-hr-347-criminalizing-protest-bill>which
is often a barbed-wired area miles from the President's motorcade
route.

Keep in mind that those who hold the guns may also, as is frequently seen
to be the case around the world, treat as criminals people who do anything
which they can write a law against (including obscure tax or regulatory
rules, homosexuality, prostitution, drug use, etc.).

I'm not an Objectivist, but I like Ayn Rand's dialogue in Atlas Shrugged
between Dr. Ferris and Hank Reardon: "Did you really think we want those
laws observed?" said Dr. Ferris. "We want them to be broken. You'd better
get it straight that it's not a bunch of boy scouts you're up against...
We're after power and we mean it... There's no way to rule innocent men.
The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals.
Well, when there aren't enough criminals one makes them. One declares so
many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live
without breaking laws. Who wants a nation of law-abiding citizens? What's
there in that for anyone? But just pass the kind of laws that can neither
be observed nor enforced or objectively interpreted - and you create a
nation of law-breakers - and then you cash in on guilt. Now that's the
system, Mr. Reardon, that's the game, and once you understand it, you'll be
much easier to deal with."
-- Ayn Rand <http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/432.Ayn_Rand>, *Atlas
Shrugged <http://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/817219>*

James
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From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Thu Nov 15 04:34:19 2012
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2012 23:34:19 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Conscientious objections
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNT3kyFw2+m9K5kE1DtEUMMepszEiGj32cB4uvX1gbRt5A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAc1gFizs0+k6D9-YAERqNF1tUb_eZ0ft6Q3WhQ3cKqpcVQq9Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQ3oZrwp7HXn4Ed2V+mLp+PBqJyR8ZVWgi7AHhJDF81dQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJX-7wXqZSkG-cnNZY1oNiHB06Pan9a2i0AJhN5XOdjXxF5FZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a7m-chwTUSV+7824gTZrCBYZj6XzeGnQse2740qjSwQ1g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQyUCjibTNEcaguy0zFR=TSvD555=H2WziWk81xGwtv5g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJX-7wUbznHOre+Eyxji_OgX-JmuHSXQxdON8TLTOkE+0uGT8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNT3kyFw2+m9K5kE1DtEUMMepszEiGj32cB4uvX1gbRt5A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAAc1gFjeq=mfELaOxk75+oZNFrwxKd19-RyvyHKaZbgvtSCYhg@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 5:38 PM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Not voting externalizes your costs there onto the rest of us
> who generally agree with your political preferences.  It may
> be a very tiny amount, but it is nonzero.  The right thing to
> do, IMO, is to vote in such cases.

### Let me be clear: I think that voting is *not* wrong. Many people I
greatly respect voted, and even a vote for Romney is no reason to
cross you off my friends list. But, I strongly disagree that there
exists an a priori moral duty to participate in elections. Using the
notion of externality here is also inappropriate: If you look at the
usual meaning of this term in economic literature, it applies to costs
or benefits of trade not transmitted through prices, or affecting
persons other than the buyer and seller directly involved in the
trade.

Clearly, I have no voluntary trade with Mr Obama, I have no contract
with you or anybody else to act in support of some political goals.
Per my inclination, I may volunteer to agitate against the Mandarinate
and its political candidates but I will be held to no standard of duty
on this issue.

As I said before, reasonable and good-natured people may differ in
their approaches to bettering the world. I developed a visceral
dislike of the slithering nest of snakes, and I don't want to touch it
(even if there was a minute positive effect overall). But, I applaud
those who wish to improve the system from the inside, even if their
quest may be quixotic.

Rafal


From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Thu Nov 15 15:34:27 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2012 16:34:27 +0100
Subject: [ExI] social reprogramming
In-Reply-To: <50A39F38.6050500@aleph.se>
References: <50A1765D.5030700@aleph.se>
 <2A6EABEA-8FB6-4D25-BD28-9C44F2D40AE7@gmail.com>
 <50A19891.1030607@aleph.se>
 <F7AB752B-8DF8-4F3B-86E3-7D6B418DB24B@gmail.com>
 <50A39172.5030505@aleph.se>
 <CAPoR7a4rdHfJrMLusivnYun_9o4e93DvrdLNhZNVDQpgf11t5w@mail.gmail.com>
 <50A39F38.6050500@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a6oUzk=927FuUJjgZy+Qqc8=ET6jRF6babarMyUGNQG0w@mail.gmail.com>

Il giorno 14/nov/2012 14:41, "Anders Sandberg" <anders at aleph.se> ha scritto:
>
> On 14/11/2012 13:18, Stefano Vaj wrote:
>>
>>
>> Moreover, behaviourist training strategies, once more at least depicted
in US movies, actually appear to aim deliberately at the development of a
sort of controlled sociopathy.
>
> The problem is of course that the military is no longer mainly about
killing.

Of course. But I suspect it has not for a long time, if ever, and reference
here was mainly to whatever residual use may exist for the kind of warfare
depicted by, eg, Black Hawk Down or, in games, Call of Duty.

Speaking of which, the US side of asymmetrical warfare may well become more
and more about honing your PS3 skills... :-)
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From atymes at gmail.com  Thu Nov 15 17:45:25 2012
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2012 09:45:25 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Conscientious objections
In-Reply-To: <CAAc1gFjeq=mfELaOxk75+oZNFrwxKd19-RyvyHKaZbgvtSCYhg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAc1gFizs0+k6D9-YAERqNF1tUb_eZ0ft6Q3WhQ3cKqpcVQq9Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQ3oZrwp7HXn4Ed2V+mLp+PBqJyR8ZVWgi7AHhJDF81dQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJX-7wXqZSkG-cnNZY1oNiHB06Pan9a2i0AJhN5XOdjXxF5FZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a7m-chwTUSV+7824gTZrCBYZj6XzeGnQse2740qjSwQ1g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQyUCjibTNEcaguy0zFR=TSvD555=H2WziWk81xGwtv5g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJX-7wUbznHOre+Eyxji_OgX-JmuHSXQxdON8TLTOkE+0uGT8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNT3kyFw2+m9K5kE1DtEUMMepszEiGj32cB4uvX1gbRt5A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFjeq=mfELaOxk75+oZNFrwxKd19-RyvyHKaZbgvtSCYhg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNRLfn1T-KS5LCooYL7tV-i1Y9vpWvGRxhY3-jsq-JSyVA@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 8:34 PM, Rafal Smigrodzki
<rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com> wrote:
> Using the
> notion of externality here is also inappropriate: If you look at the
> usual meaning of this term in economic literature, it applies to costs
> or benefits of trade not transmitted through prices, or affecting
> persons other than the buyer and seller directly involved in the
> trade.

You drive on roads that I have paid for, in an area where the
closest thing to an armed robber (taxes) is something you can
plan for, and is based primarily on how much money you have
mooched off other people (likely in exchange for services
rendered, but if taxes and armed robbery are morally identical,
the same comparison holds between not offering your services
for free and outright helping yourself to others' property).  You
can not avoid taking advantage of these things my money
helped pay for, so long as you are within the United States.

Therefore, if you want to cease your obligation to me, the only
practical choice is to leave the United States.  Otherwise,
there most certainly is an externality.

Now of course it is impractical for you, me, and everyone else
to directly decide all of these issues, on a scale of the entire
United States.  So there is a set of people - the "government" -
elected (or appointed by the elected, or appointed by the
appointees of the elected, but all ultimately responsible to the
electorate - that is, to all of us) to handle these matters.  Your
part is to vote, to formally register your preference alongside
mine in how these things should be handled.

The "but my vote doesn't count" argument only holds true if
you only look at yourself.  If ten million people believe that and
use that reason to not vote, when they would otherwise have
voted third party - well, if they had voted, people would not have
as strong a perception that third parties are nonviable, would
they?  You can lead by example - vote, and that may inspire
those who believe as you do to likewise vote.


From pharos at gmail.com  Thu Nov 15 19:40:55 2012
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2012 19:40:55 +0000
Subject: [ExI] unanimous decision,
 was: RE: An old skeleton tumbles out of the list closet
In-Reply-To: <002a01cdc2d1$5893d850$09bb88f0$@att.net>
References: <005d01cdc202$a96564d0$fc302e70$@att.net>
 <CAL_armjtnibVe4hKKin1d+BRD3Hf=6m08jy42k=QZZcDpBXabQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <018701cdc2ab$673b2d20$35b18760$@att.net>
 <CAL_armifC-jJUohSfm0VsetqpBgf17DikB6GLz-0S_aqRYUrfA@mail.gmail.com>
 <01d001cdc2bb$856fc520$904f4f60$@att.net>
 <002a01cdc2d1$5893d850$09bb88f0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAL_armjY43r06JCKcmVtzLgD1C1z7-mzCGqYnXXBRH0vF5ELUQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Nov 15, 2012 at 1:34 AM, spike  wrote:
<snip>
> But the critical question is if the number of Johnson and Stein (et.al)
> votes in those zero-Romney divisions also went to zero.  If so, then the
> error rate in those divisions is also zero, shaming those Florida voters
> from 2000 who claimed errors when they accidentally voted for the wrong guy.
> Pennsylvania voters don't make mistakes apparently, but Florida voters do,
> enough to actually tip an entire election.
>
> Or alternatively, can we find any divisions in which the Romney vote was
> zero but the other candidates were non-zero?  Is there anywhere we can find
> that info?  Or is that info intentionally held from the public?
>
>


I have found the Philadelphia county machine results by precinct.
There seem to be a general few votes for Johnson and Stein and
write-ins scattered around, even when Romney is zero.
There are over 1,000 precincts, so it is a case for one of your
spreadsheets, I think.
I stepped through the first 20 or so occurrences of OBAMA to check the
pattern of the numbers and they look realistic to me.
<http://www.campaignscientific.com/Downloads/PhilaElecResults/Unofficial_2012GeneralResults.txt>


BillK


From natasha at natasha.cc  Thu Nov 15 18:36:22 2012
From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More)
Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2012 11:36:22 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Article on Humanity+ @ San Francisco
Message-ID: <015701cdc360$1c7b1ec0$55715c40$@natasha.cc>

http://hplusmagazine.com/2012/11/15/writing-the-future/

 

 <http://www.natasha.cc/> Natasha Vita-More, PhD

esDESiGN_email

Professor, University of Advancing Technology

Chairman,  <http://www.humanityplus.org/> Humanity+
Producer/Host,  <http://www.hplustv.wordpress.com/> H+TV

 

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From spike66 at att.net  Thu Nov 15 22:51:17 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2012 14:51:17 -0800
Subject: [ExI] unanimous decision,
	was: RE: An old skeleton tumbles out of the list closet
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armjY43r06JCKcmVtzLgD1C1z7-mzCGqYnXXBRH0vF5ELUQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <005d01cdc202$a96564d0$fc302e70$@att.net>
 <CAL_armjtnibVe4hKKin1d+BRD3Hf=6m08jy42k=QZZcDpBXabQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <018701cdc2ab$673b2d20$35b18760$@att.net>
 <CAL_armifC-jJUohSfm0VsetqpBgf17DikB6GLz-0S_aqRYUrfA@mail.gmail.com>
 <01d001cdc2bb$856fc520$904f4f60$@att.net>
 <002a01cdc2d1$5893d850$09bb88f0$@att.net>
 <CAL_armjY43r06JCKcmVtzLgD1C1z7-mzCGqYnXXBRH0vF5ELUQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00ab01cdc383$ba02a500$2e07ef00$@att.net>

On Behalf Of BillK
Subject: Re: [ExI] unanimous decision, was: RE: An old skeleton tumbles out
of the list closet

On Thu, Nov 15, 2012 at 1:34 AM, spike  wrote:
<snip>
>>... But the critical question is if the number of Johnson and Stein
(et.al) votes in those zero-Romney divisions also went to zero...

>...I have found the Philadelphia county machine results by precinct.
There seem to be a general few votes for Johnson and Stein and write-ins
scattered around, even when Romney is zero.
There are over 1,000 precincts, so it is a case for one of your
spreadsheets, I think.
I stepped through the first 20 or so occurrences of OBAMA to check the
pattern of the numbers and they look realistic to me.
<http://www.campaignscientific.com/Downloads/PhilaElecResults/Unofficial_201
2GeneralResults.txt>


BillK
_______________________________________________

Excellent investigative work BillK.  

Quick look so far: most of the divisions which went zero-Romney also went
zero for every other non-Obama candidate as well.  The database only lists
Obama, Johnson, Stein and Romney, so I don't know if Barr, Anderson and
Goode fit were on the ballot, apparently not.  There were a total of 26
non-Obama votes in those 59 divisions vs 19,605 Obama votes, 10 for Johnson,
15 for Stein and 1 for write-in.  37 divisions were all Obama and no one
else, one division was 1 write-in to 448 Obama, ten divisions had exactly 1
Stein vote and no other non-Obamas, 2 divisions had exactly two Steins and
no other non-Obamas,
8 divisions had exactly 1 Johnson and no other Obamas, one division had
exactly 2 Johnsons and no other non-Obamas.  Of the 59 divisions which had
no Romney votes, none had both a Johnson and a Stein.  Apparently every
neighborhood is limited to one per customer, or two if the same candidate
appeals to both oddballs.

spike

Ward	Division			obama/johnson/stein/romney/write-in
		totals-->	19605	10	15	0	1
19	14			136	0	0	0	0
47	14			149	0	0	0	0
29	9			202	0	0	0	0
24	16			204	0	0	0	0
32	27			209	0	0	0	0
47	13			220	0	0	0	0
28	15			251	0	0	0	0
11	1			256	0	0	0	0
44	16			259	0	0	0	0
29	7			286	0	0	0	0
32	29			289	0	0	0	0
16	9			296	0	0	0	0
16	13			298	0	0	0	0
12	21			303	0	0	0	0
16	8			308	0	0	0	0
28	10			308	0	0	0	0
16	16			309	0	0	0	0
44	3			309	0	0	0	0
37	12			313	0	0	0	0
28	3			324	0	0	0	0
60	10			326	0	0	0	0
37	5			329	0	0	0	0
38	8			356	0	0	0	0
51	9			358	0	0	0	0
51	27			361	0	0	0	0
60	22			362	0	0	0	0
13	15			375	0	0	0	0
17	2			377	0	0	0	0
51	3			388	0	0	0	0
28	6			389	0	0	0	0
46	15			420	0	0	0	0
10	8			422	0	0	0	0
46	12			435	0	0	0	0
11	19			444	0	0	0	0
3	15			448	0	0	0	1
3	14			488	0	0	0	0
59	2			489	0	0	0	0
49	19			513	0	0	0	0
37	1			152	0	1	0	0
24	9			275	0	1	0	0
32	3			288	0	1	0	0
37	8			308	0	1	0	0
32	25			317	0	1	0	0
6	6			335	0	1	0	0
60	18			404	0	1	0	0
44	2			442	0	1	0	0
38	3			583	0	1	0	0
10	21			585	0	1	0	0
32	13			220	0	2	0	0
36	22			322	0	2	0	0
32	1			206	1	0	0	0
32	20			269	1	0	0	0
16	11			301	1	0	0	0
11	3			309	1	0	0	0
32	19			325	1	0	0	0
38	1			331	1	0	0	0
4	4			407	1	0	0	0
44	1			373	1	1	0	0
60	7			344	2	0	0	0






From bbenzai at yahoo.com  Fri Nov 16 13:17:13 2012
From: bbenzai at yahoo.com (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2012 05:17:13 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ExI] How PISA surveys systematically overestimate Finland
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2016.1352792849.17650.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <1353071833.17034.YahooMailClassic@web114414.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

Dan <dan_ust at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> > What do you call someone who can speak 2 languages?
> > Bilingual.
> >
> > What do you call someone who can speak 3 languages?
> > Trilingual.
> >
> > What do you call someone who can speak 1 language?
> > English.
> 
> 
> I thought the correct answer was "American." :)
> 

No, that's the answer to the next question in the series..


Ben Zaiboc



From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Fri Nov 16 14:46:32 2012
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2012 06:46:32 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ExI] unanimous decision,
	was: RE: An old skeleton tumbles out of the list closet
References: <005d01cdc202$a96564d0$fc302e70$@att.net>
 <CAL_armjtnibVe4hKKin1d+BRD3Hf=6m08jy42k=QZZcDpBXabQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <018701cdc2ab$673b2d20$35b18760$@att.net> 
Message-ID: <1353077192.77436.YahooMailNeo@web160504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>




________________________________
From: spike <spike66 at att.net>
To: 'ExI chat list' <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> 
Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2012 1:02 PM
Subject: Re: [ExI] unanimous decision, was: RE: An old skeleton tumbles out of the list closet


>If we look at those 59 divisions and find that those 19,605 votes contained
>zero Romney, zero Johnson, zero Jill Stein, zero Virgil Goode,? zero Rocky
>Anderson, zero Rosanne Barr, zero Pat Paulsen, zero write-ins, then I will
>be convinced to my satisfaction that this election was bogus.? But if all
>the non-Obama votes combined add up to even a tenth of a percent, or about
>20 votes, then I will think otherwise.? Anyone who has ever served on a jury
>knows how difficult it is to get even twelve people to agree even when the
>evidence is overwhelming will know that any unanimous opinion of those
>19,605 is as phony as a three dollar bill.

You might be analyzing the subtle to the exclusion of the obvious. I think that it is perfectly reasonable if the demographics in those regions are primarily rural blacks.??Perhaps those 19,605 votes were black people who never voted in their life but were willing to bother to do so for America's first black president. Keep in mind that many people's decisions are influenced by emotion.

Face it, Romney pretty much pooched it with his comment about the 47% to the?.1%.?There were a lot of blacks in that 47% and if more of them voted?than did the rest, that is all that mattered.

If you really want to?make?a case, look into the specific election laws in those states. They vary by state and you might be extrapolating California voting laws elsewhere. For example, here in Nevada, several parties are not officially recognized and write-in votes are not allowed.?It was impossible for me to vote for Roseanne?Barr even if I wanted to. IMO there is something undemocratic about not allowing write-in votes. Incidently I was allowed to vote for Gary Johnson so I did.

Also consider that ?if the election was *rigged* it would have taken a lot of resources to do it. That would have required a buy-in from the PTB?or as Citigroup has labeled them-- the Plutonomy.?This was the?safest status quo that could be?bought. Such is the beauty of the theater; plays never get old so long as the actors are young.

Stuart LaForge


"Prisons are built with stones of Law. Brothels with the bricks of religion." - William Blake




From dan_ust at yahoo.com  Fri Nov 16 22:08:48 2012
From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan)
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2012 14:08:48 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ExI] Conscientious objections
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On Thursday, November 15, 2012 12:45 PM Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 8:34 PM, Rafal Smigrodzki <rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Using the
>> notion of externality here is also inappropriate: If you look at the
>> usual meaning of this term in economic literature, it applies to costs
>> or benefits of trade not transmitted through prices, or affecting
>> persons other than the buyer and seller directly involved in the
>> trade.
>
> You drive on roads that I have paid for, in an area where the
> closest thing to an armed robber (taxes) is something you can
> plan for, and is based primarily on how much money you have
> mooched off other people (likely in exchange for services
> rendered, but if taxes and armed robbery are morally identical,
> the same comparison holds between not offering your services
> for free and outright helping yourself to others' property).? You
> can not avoid taking advantage of these things my money
> helped pay for, so long as you are within the United States.

This argument doesn't hold water for several reasons. First of all, for a case for an externality to work in a consistent fashion, one has to have a clear definition of property. That runs up against problems with public property. Anyhow, with no clear definition of who owns what, then any argument that something is an externality explodes.


Second, Rafal is also forced to pay taxes and the like. It's not like the government leaves him alone and he decides to use the roads and the like. So, in so much as you think he owes others for this, he owes them. But given that there is force involved in funding these things, someone using them is not really stealing as such. That's just the make believe logic of democratic government: that you own the state, therefore, people who use the state's stuff are using your stuff. That works to keep people focused not on state aggression but on people who protest it.

But even allowing that you own the state -- or that you and the rest of the subjects of the state own it -- since Rafal is one of the subjects he owns it as much as you. Again, the argument falls apart.


Third, not voting doesn't really change his tax position. People who don't vote still have to pay taxes, last I checked. Not voting -- even not registering to vote -- does not in the US or any nation I know of mean one can avoid taxes. If it does, please let me know quickly so that I can contact the tax authorities in several nations for a big refund.

Fourth, it's hard to measure who uses what, so comparing this to a market exchange, where people pay for specific things or services (and can choose to opt out), doesn't make sense. Taxes (and deficits, which are always going to be some of future, and inflation, which is not a only a sort of future tax, but is spread across the economy in ways hard to predict) are very unlike market transactions because there is no opting out.

And please don't go on about being able to leave the country. That is just like saying I can leave when a robber invades my house. If you're going to accept that logic, then you're arguing for might makes right at every turn. This all allows the state to make the rules here, where the thing I believe Rafal is arguing -- and if he isn't arguing I am arguing it -- is that state (or any state anywhere) has no just claim over him or even over the people, territories, and wealth it controls. Thus, it is just like the robber invading someone's home: it has no right to be there and can't make any just claim for others to leave simply because it's there.


> Therefore, if you want to cease your obligation to me, the only
> practical choice is to leave the United States.? Otherwise,
> there most certainly is an externality.

He doesn't have an obligation here to you -- nor you to him. Obligations, by definition, have to be by expressed consented to. They can't be presumed, but must be openly agreed to, which means that there has to be a way to disagree to them -- and not something like, "He agrees that I'm king over him because he hasn't moved to Antarctica leaving all his worldly positions with me. So, there it is, I'm king!" That's the nature of an obligation. If you don't accept that, then obligation becomes a vague concept that's merely what someone else feels yet another person owes her or him. (And if you're going to bite the bullet on that one, well, then obligation becomes useless: you see this as a valid obligation, but Rafal doesn't and that's that.)

> Now of course it is impractical for you, me, and everyone else
> to directly decide all of these issues, on a scale of the entire
> United States.? So there is a set of people - the "government" -
> elected (or appointed by the elected, or appointed by the
> appointees of the elected, but all ultimately responsible to the
> electorate - that is, to all of us) to handle these matters.? Your
> part is to vote, to formally register your preference alongside
> mine in how these things should be handled.

That's the grade school civics view of why we have rulers. The truth, however, is people make all kinds of complicated decisions all the times and they do so voluntarily. (And even in cases where they do use experts or specialists, this is done voluntarily and they retain the right to not use them on an individual basis. For instance, I choose my auto mechanic. There is no election of a board to choose one for me.) The argument from complexity is a nonstarter. In fact, some of the most complicated things, such as how scientific theories are created, tested, and promulgated come about through a voluntary process of individuals freely interacting. Scientists don't elect representatives to decide which theories are valid and which should be set aside. Yet complicated scientific theories are somehow invented, tested, refined, and spread (or rejected). How's that possible?

Well, it's a complicated issue, but it seems that it's a much similar process to how many other spontaneous orders work, including markets, language, and evolution. The fatal conceit here is to think a few experts or some politicians can do better and should trump the millions of individuals making choices for themselves. (In fact, one is reminded of a certain politician making a speech about a certain now bankrupt solar cell maker is just a humorous example of how good politicians are at picking winners.)

And were your argument true -- that some choices are so complicated and that somehow electing a tiny number of people to make them worked better than the alternatives -- why it should be applied more widely. We should comprehensive economic planning just like in the Soviet Union. The economy, after all, shouldn't be left to hundreds of millions of people who know so little and can make all sorts of bad decisions impacting the rest of the world. We should go back to arranged marriages -- marriage is, after all, a very complicated decision that impacts so many others. We should have elected officials or expert panels deciding what careers people can get on track for -- so as not to waste all that effort of schooling and training the wrong people for the wrong job only to have them work in another field or have to be retrained. And complicated things like scientific theories should be brought under some sort of national or international planning. We
 wouldn't want, say, people just dreaming up any theory and wasting valuable resources that should only go to theories approved by those in power.


> The "but my vote doesn't count" argument only holds true if
> you only look at yourself.? If ten million people believe that and
> use that reason to not vote, when they would otherwise have
> voted third party - well, if they had voted, people would not have
> as strong a perception that third parties are nonviable, would
> they?? You can lead by example - vote, and that may inspire
> those who believe as you do to likewise vote.

The same reasoning might be used to say you should spend your money on this product or you should invest in that stock: if ten million people did the same as you, think what would happen? But Rafal was only speaking for himself. He was talking about and justifying why he acted the way he did -- not asking what would happen if ten million others did the same. To be sure, if far more people didn't vote, that would actually lead to the whole political system being seen as much less legitimate. And if they all argued the same way Rafal did, then it would be very hard for the system to continue to function as it does now. In fact, any real world government, even the traditionally despotic one, depends on most people going along with and only a tiny number ever challenging its authority. If most people don't go along, well, it's obvious what would happen: the state will basically fall apart. But even if most people acquiesce but a large minority -- and it does
 not have to be 49%; my guess is 5% or maybe 10% -- challenges it, it's days are also numbered. No real world state has a large enough police force or enough prison cells to handle that. (And the genocidal solution is mostly off the table, thankfully.) In such cases, the state would either fall or have to negotiate something, maybe allowing a secession (as with the former Soviet Union) or maybe limiting itself (as with many protest movements throughout history).

Also, there's another problem here. If Rafal is an anarchist, then why should be vote at all? He would be morally against voting and it might be, on that account, wrong to participate in a process he's against. (One might even argue, contra you, that him voting would be hypocritical.) In such a case, there would be no third party that would satisfy him by definition. (This is basically my position too: I don't want anyone to be president. It's not that I want someone other than the two major party dudes. And, yeah, that's a hard sell for most people, but I don't think going into a voting booth is going to make it any easier and will, in all likelihood, make it much more difficult.)


Regards,

Dan



From clementlawyer at gmail.com  Fri Nov 16 23:02:00 2012
From: clementlawyer at gmail.com (James Clement)
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2012 18:02:00 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Conscientious objections
In-Reply-To: <1353103728.91925.YahooMailNeo@web126205.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
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On Fri, Nov 16, 2012 at 5:08 PM, Dan <dan_ust at yahoo.com> wrote:

> On Thursday, November 15, 2012 12:45 PM Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>


> Third, not voting doesn't really change his tax position. People who don't
> vote still have to pay taxes, last I checked. Not voting -- even not
> registering to vote -- does not in the US or any nation I know of mean one
> can avoid taxes. If it does, please let me know quickly so that I can
> contact the tax authorities in several nations for a big refund.
>
>
Owing to the U.S. legal and tax system, to truly "opt out" one has to
expatriate <http://www.expattaxandlaw.com/expatriation.html>.

 > Now of course it is impractical for you, me, and everyone else
> > to directly decide all of these issues, on a scale of the entire
> > United States.  So there is a set of people - the "government" -
> > elected (or appointed by the elected, or appointed by the
> > appointees of the elected, but all ultimately responsible to the
> > electorate - that is, to all of us) to handle these matters.  Your
> > part is to vote, to formally register your preference alongside
> > mine in how these things should be handled.
>
> That's the grade school civics view of why we have rulers. The truth,
> however, is people make all kinds of complicated decisions all the times
> and they do so voluntarily. (And even in cases where they do use experts or
> specialists, this is done voluntarily and they retain the right to not use
> them on an individual basis. For instance, I choose my auto mechanic. There
> is no election of a board to choose one for me.) The argument from
> complexity is a nonstarter. In fact, some of the most complicated things,
> such as how scientific theories are created, tested, and promulgated come
> about through a voluntary process of individuals freely interacting.
> Scientists don't elect representatives to decide which theories are valid
> and which should be set aside. Yet complicated scientific theories are
> somehow invented, tested, refined, and spread (or rejected). How's that
> possible?
>
> This is the "civics" propaganda that the Establishment teaches in middle
school. It's certainly not how the real world works (ask anyone who's
actually worked for a politician, and I don't mean campaigned for, but
actually worked in their staff office). We could just as easily have other
systems where individuals are sovereign. It was comtemplated at one time in
the U.S. that all rights fell with the citizens, was transferred by consent
to the individual States, and the Federal Government's sole role was to
resolve disputes between sovereign United States and act as a united
go-between with foreign sovereigns. From at least the time of the Civil
War, the Federal Government has been usurping the power of the States and
making it extremely difficult for individual states to compete for
citizens. Federal laws have made uniformity the rule, and social
experimentation virtually dead.


>
> Also, there's another problem here. If Rafal is an anarchist, then why
> should be vote at all? He would be morally against voting and it might be,
> on that account, wrong to participate in a process he's against. (One might
> even argue, contra you, that him voting would be hypocritical.) In such a
> case, there would be no third party that would satisfy him by definition.
> (This is basically my position too: I don't want anyone to be president.
> It's not that I want someone other than the two major party dudes. And,
> yeah, that's a hard sell for most people, but I don't think going into a
> voting booth is going to make it any easier and will, in all likelihood,
> make it much more difficult.)
>
>
Agreed. I'm an Anarchist / Agorist. Voting condones the existing "overlord"
system that is sold to people under the illusion that we are somehow in
control <http://youtu.be/xIraCchPDhk>.  The truth is - our political system
is like a casino, citizens are playing a game that only the house
continually wins at. Like roulette, the House doesn't care whether Red or
Black wins (substitute Republican or Democrat) because the House
(substitute the Establishment) has rigged the game so that it wins either
way. It doesn't matter whether Barack or Mitt is the person giving
speeches, oil prices, interest rates, stock markets, and bailouts (to name
a few) are going to be manipulated in the way the Establishment desires.
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From dan_ust at yahoo.com  Sat Nov 17 00:05:25 2012
From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan)
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2012 16:05:25 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ExI] Vegetative patient free of pain
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1211141939530.13627@tau.ceti.pl>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1211141939530.13627@tau.ceti.pl>
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On Wednesday, November 14, 2012 1:43 PM Tomasz Rola <rtomek at ceti.pl> wrote:

[giant snip]

> If the reports convince the medical community, it will be a triumph of the 
> diagnostic technique over conventional clinical examination. It will also 
> help in the care of such patients, since they could indicate pain levels 
> or even convey what kind of music they wanted to hear.? Lurking in the 
> background is the question that Owen still won't ask, for lack of moral 
> consensus: Do you want to die? But in the meantime, some families, like? 
> Routley's, will be happily vindicated in their belief that their loved 
> one is 'still there.'


Good news overall!

While I'm not against individuals having a right to die, there's a couple of problems here. I'd want to make sure the technique was reliable -- that the person really wanted to die as opposed to misreading some scan and then causing an irreversible choice to be made.

Two, I'd want the focus to be, since it seems like the patient is 'still there,' trying to get him or back to a more or less normal life. I also shudder at how many people probably have been there, but just stuck rather than unconscious.

Regards,

Dan




From spike66 at att.net  Sat Nov 17 05:53:25 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2012 21:53:25 -0800
Subject: [ExI] FW: conscientious objections
In-Reply-To: <1353128765.45086.YahooMailNeo@web161003.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <1353128765.45086.YahooMailNeo@web161003.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <016001cdc487$dc3d8220$94b88660$@att.net>

Posted for Alan Brooks:

 

From: Alan Brooks [mailto:alaneugenebrooks52 at yahoo.com] 
Sent: Friday, November 16, 2012 9:06 PM
To: spike66 at att.net
Subject: conscientious objections

 

 [Spike, please post this]

 

Know you are all mostly writing about an internal vote, but in the General
Election I voted for a Longevity Party co-founder

since the Longevity Party is a serious party (though the vote was naturally
symbolic).

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From max at maxmore.com  Sat Nov 17 09:16:09 2012
From: max at maxmore.com (Max More)
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2012 02:16:09 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Conscientious objections
In-Reply-To: <1353103728.91925.YahooMailNeo@web126205.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
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My apologies for posting what is essentially a "me too" message, but Dan
stated things so well.

I haven't thought of myself as a libertarian for years now, but some
discussions -- like this one -- remind me sharply that my core sentiments
remain close to that viewpoint. Free market anarchism remains deeply
appealing even though I don't think it's feasible today. Things change. Go
back a a few centuries, and it was right to think that democracy was not
feasible at that time. I do think (contrary to my younger self) that some
collective goods and free rider problems cannot be solved TODAY and so
cannot call myself a true libertarian, but I remain supportive of that as
an ideal and hold out hope that we can eventually make that an achievable
form of society. In the meantime, certainly we could move a huge distance
in that direction.

Despite Adrian's admonitions, I remain a proud and deliberate non-voter.

--Max


On Fri, Nov 16, 2012 at 3:08 PM, Dan <dan_ust at yahoo.com> wrote:

> On Thursday, November 15, 2012 12:45 PM Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 8:34 PM, Rafal Smigrodzki <
> rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Using the
> >> notion of externality here is also inappropriate: If you look at the
> >> usual meaning of this term in economic literature, it applies to costs
> >> or benefits of trade not transmitted through prices, or affecting
> >> persons other than the buyer and seller directly involved in the
> >> trade.
> >
> > You drive on roads that I have paid for, in an area where the
> > closest thing to an armed robber (taxes) is something you can
> > plan for, and is based primarily on how much money you have
> > mooched off other people (likely in exchange for services
> > rendered, but if taxes and armed robbery are morally identical,
> > the same comparison holds between not offering your services
> > for free and outright helping yourself to others' property).  You
> > can not avoid taking advantage of these things my money
> > helped pay for, so long as you are within the United States.
>
> This argument doesn't hold water for several reasons. First of all, for a
> case for an externality to work in a consistent fashion, one has to have a
> clear definition of property. That runs up against problems with public
> property. Anyhow, with no clear definition of who owns what, then any
> argument that something is an externality explodes.
>
>
> Second, Rafal is also forced to pay taxes and the like. It's not like the
> government leaves him alone and he decides to use the roads and the like.
> So, in so much as you think he owes others for this, he owes them. But
> given that there is force involved in funding these things, someone using
> them is not really stealing as such. That's just the make believe logic of
> democratic government: that you own the state, therefore, people who use
> the state's stuff are using your stuff. That works to keep people focused
> not on state aggression but on people who protest it.
>
> But even allowing that you own the state -- or that you and the rest of
> the subjects of the state own it -- since Rafal is one of the subjects he
> owns it as much as you. Again, the argument falls apart.
>
>
> Third, not voting doesn't really change his tax position. People who don't
> vote still have to pay taxes, last I checked. Not voting -- even not
> registering to vote -- does not in the US or any nation I know of mean one
> can avoid taxes. If it does, please let me know quickly so that I can
> contact the tax authorities in several nations for a big refund.
>
> Fourth, it's hard to measure who uses what, so comparing this to a market
> exchange, where people pay for specific things or services (and can choose
> to opt out), doesn't make sense. Taxes (and deficits, which are always
> going to be some of future, and inflation, which is not a only a sort of
> future tax, but is spread across the economy in ways hard to predict) are
> very unlike market transactions because there is no opting out.
>
> And please don't go on about being able to leave the country. That is just
> like saying I can leave when a robber invades my house. If you're going to
> accept that logic, then you're arguing for might makes right at every turn.
> This all allows the state to make the rules here, where the thing I believe
> Rafal is arguing -- and if he isn't arguing I am arguing it -- is that
> state (or any state anywhere) has no just claim over him or even over the
> people, territories, and wealth it controls. Thus, it is just like the
> robber invading someone's home: it has no right to be there and can't make
> any just claim for others to leave simply because it's there.
>
>
> > Therefore, if you want to cease your obligation to me, the only
> > practical choice is to leave the United States.  Otherwise,
> > there most certainly is an externality.
>
> He doesn't have an obligation here to you -- nor you to him. Obligations,
> by definition, have to be by expressed consented to. They can't be
> presumed, but must be openly agreed to, which means that there has to be a
> way to disagree to them -- and not something like, "He agrees that I'm king
> over him because he hasn't moved to Antarctica leaving all his worldly
> positions with me. So, there it is, I'm king!" That's the nature of an
> obligation. If you don't accept that, then obligation becomes a vague
> concept that's merely what someone else feels yet another person owes her
> or him. (And if you're going to bite the bullet on that one, well, then
> obligation becomes useless: you see this as a valid obligation, but Rafal
> doesn't and that's that.)
>
> > Now of course it is impractical for you, me, and everyone else
> > to directly decide all of these issues, on a scale of the entire
> > United States.  So there is a set of people - the "government" -
> > elected (or appointed by the elected, or appointed by the
> > appointees of the elected, but all ultimately responsible to the
> > electorate - that is, to all of us) to handle these matters.  Your
> > part is to vote, to formally register your preference alongside
> > mine in how these things should be handled.
>
> That's the grade school civics view of why we have rulers. The truth,
> however, is people make all kinds of complicated decisions all the times
> and they do so voluntarily. (And even in cases where they do use experts or
> specialists, this is done voluntarily and they retain the right to not use
> them on an individual basis. For instance, I choose my auto mechanic. There
> is no election of a board to choose one for me.) The argument from
> complexity is a nonstarter. In fact, some of the most complicated things,
> such as how scientific theories are created, tested, and promulgated come
> about through a voluntary process of individuals freely interacting.
> Scientists don't elect representatives to decide which theories are valid
> and which should be set aside. Yet complicated scientific theories are
> somehow invented, tested, refined, and spread (or rejected). How's that
> possible?
>
> Well, it's a complicated issue, but it seems that it's a much similar
> process to how many other spontaneous orders work, including markets,
> language, and evolution. The fatal conceit here is to think a few experts
> or some politicians can do better and should trump the millions of
> individuals making choices for themselves. (In fact, one is reminded of a
> certain politician making a speech about a certain now bankrupt solar cell
> maker is just a humorous example of how good politicians are at picking
> winners.)
>
> And were your argument true -- that some choices are so complicated and
> that somehow electing a tiny number of people to make them worked better
> than the alternatives -- why it should be applied more widely. We should
> comprehensive economic planning just like in the Soviet Union. The economy,
> after all, shouldn't be left to hundreds of millions of people who know so
> little and can make all sorts of bad decisions impacting the rest of the
> world. We should go back to arranged marriages -- marriage is, after all, a
> very complicated decision that impacts so many others. We should have
> elected officials or expert panels deciding what careers people can get on
> track for -- so as not to waste all that effort of schooling and training
> the wrong people for the wrong job only to have them work in another field
> or have to be retrained. And complicated things like scientific theories
> should be brought under some sort of national or international planning. We
>  wouldn't want, say, people just dreaming up any theory and wasting
> valuable resources that should only go to theories approved by those in
> power.
>
>
> > The "but my vote doesn't count" argument only holds true if
> > you only look at yourself.  If ten million people believe that and
> > use that reason to not vote, when they would otherwise have
> > voted third party - well, if they had voted, people would not have
> > as strong a perception that third parties are nonviable, would
> > they?  You can lead by example - vote, and that may inspire
> > those who believe as you do to likewise vote.
>
> The same reasoning might be used to say you should spend your money on
> this product or you should invest in that stock: if ten million people did
> the same as you, think what would happen? But Rafal was only speaking for
> himself. He was talking about and justifying why he acted the way he did --
> not asking what would happen if ten million others did the same. To be
> sure, if far more people didn't vote, that would actually lead to the whole
> political system being seen as much less legitimate. And if they all argued
> the same way Rafal did, then it would be very hard for the system to
> continue to function as it does now. In fact, any real world government,
> even the traditionally despotic one, depends on most people going along
> with and only a tiny number ever challenging its authority. If most people
> don't go along, well, it's obvious what would happen: the state will
> basically fall apart. But even if most people acquiesce but a large
> minority -- and it does
>  not have to be 49%; my guess is 5% or maybe 10% -- challenges it, it's
> days are also numbered. No real world state has a large enough police force
> or enough prison cells to handle that. (And the genocidal solution is
> mostly off the table, thankfully.) In such cases, the state would either
> fall or have to negotiate something, maybe allowing a secession (as with
> the former Soviet Union) or maybe limiting itself (as with many protest
> movements throughout history).
>
> Also, there's another problem here. If Rafal is an anarchist, then why
> should be vote at all? He would be morally against voting and it might be,
> on that account, wrong to participate in a process he's against. (One might
> even argue, contra you, that him voting would be hypocritical.) In such a
> case, there would be no third party that would satisfy him by definition.
> (This is basically my position too: I don't want anyone to be president.
> It's not that I want someone other than the two major party dudes. And,
> yeah, that's a hard sell for most people, but I don't think going into a
> voting booth is going to make it any easier and will, in all likelihood,
> make it much more difficult.)
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Dan
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>



-- 
Max More, PhD
Strategic Philosopher
Co-editor, *The Transhumanist Reader*
President & CEO, Alcor Life Extension Foundation
7895 E. Acoma Dr # 110
Scottsdale, AZ 85260
480/905-1906 ext 113
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From max at maxmore.com  Sat Nov 17 09:25:56 2012
From: max at maxmore.com (Max More)
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2012 02:25:56 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Conscientious objections
In-Reply-To: <CAJX-7wX43pOUrZDybJzDC9jM-We-CtB3FioVOLatKeMEv=RVkw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAc1gFizs0+k6D9-YAERqNF1tUb_eZ0ft6Q3WhQ3cKqpcVQq9Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQ3oZrwp7HXn4Ed2V+mLp+PBqJyR8ZVWgi7AHhJDF81dQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJX-7wXqZSkG-cnNZY1oNiHB06Pan9a2i0AJhN5XOdjXxF5FZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a7m-chwTUSV+7824gTZrCBYZj6XzeGnQse2740qjSwQ1g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQyUCjibTNEcaguy0zFR=TSvD555=H2WziWk81xGwtv5g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJX-7wUbznHOre+Eyxji_OgX-JmuHSXQxdON8TLTOkE+0uGT8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNT3kyFw2+m9K5kE1DtEUMMepszEiGj32cB4uvX1gbRt5A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFjeq=mfELaOxk75+oZNFrwxKd19-RyvyHKaZbgvtSCYhg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRLfn1T-KS5LCooYL7tV-i1Y9vpWvGRxhY3-jsq-JSyVA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1353103728.91925.YahooMailNeo@web126205.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAJX-7wX43pOUrZDybJzDC9jM-We-CtB3FioVOLatKeMEv=RVkw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJX-7wWEQJg1=7WMEyhdw0ev9ZqH9k6wvauvpRgZCfW87y_gjQ@mail.gmail.com>

On this topic, does anyone know of an online link to the text of Richard
Taylor's Freedom, Anarchy, and the Law? I first read that when I took a
Political Philosophy course by John Hospers when I was a graduate student
at USC in the late 1980s. He read one chapter, which brilliantly uses an
analogy to show the absurdity of the argument for consent to government
through voting. My copy is boxed somewhere, but I recall that part of the
chapter analogized the vote to a letter written to The Man once every four
years, the content of which was either "Yes" or "No". Writing the letter
bound the citizen to all manner of absurdities.

The book is long out of print. It really should be made available online. I
remember it stirred up the minds of the students in Hospers' class quite
powerfully.

--Max


-- 
Max More, PhD
Strategic Philosopher
Co-editor, *The Transhumanist Reader*
President & CEO, Alcor Life Extension Foundation
7895 E. Acoma Dr # 110
Scottsdale, AZ 85260
480/905-1906 ext 113
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From anders at aleph.se  Sat Nov 17 12:25:17 2012
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2012 12:25:17 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Conscientious objections
In-Reply-To: <CAJX-7wX43pOUrZDybJzDC9jM-We-CtB3FioVOLatKeMEv=RVkw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAc1gFizs0+k6D9-YAERqNF1tUb_eZ0ft6Q3WhQ3cKqpcVQq9Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQ3oZrwp7HXn4Ed2V+mLp+PBqJyR8ZVWgi7AHhJDF81dQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJX-7wXqZSkG-cnNZY1oNiHB06Pan9a2i0AJhN5XOdjXxF5FZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a7m-chwTUSV+7824gTZrCBYZj6XzeGnQse2740qjSwQ1g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQyUCjibTNEcaguy0zFR=TSvD555=H2WziWk81xGwtv5g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJX-7wUbznHOre+Eyxji_OgX-JmuHSXQxdON8TLTOkE+0uGT8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNT3kyFw2+m9K5kE1DtEUMMepszEiGj32cB4uvX1gbRt5A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFjeq=mfELaOxk75+oZNFrwxKd19-RyvyHKaZbgvtSCYhg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRLfn1T-KS5LCooYL7tV-i1Y9vpWvGRxhY3-jsq-JSyVA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1353103728.91925.YahooMailNeo@web126205.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAJX-7wX43pOUrZDybJzDC9jM-We-CtB3FioVOLatKeMEv=RVkw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <50A7822D.7060800@aleph.se>

On 17/11/2012 09:16, Max More wrote:
>  Things change. Go back a a few centuries, and it was right to think 
> that democracy was not feasible at that time.

I think this is a key realisation. Some political systems require 
cultural or technological preconditions that take time (and effort!) to 
develop.

I was writing up a fairly vanilla anarcho-capitalist private law system 
for a roleplaying game recently, and I realized that the thing that made 
it sound plausible was that a lot of the interactions happened between 
software rather than people - the classic idea of arbitration between 
PPL companies would simply be too cumbersome without AI and fast 
lawyerware. Once they come inte existence, this particular system jumps 
from infeasible to an option.

Same thing with parliamentary democracy and printing presses. Which 
makes me wonder what systems we have not even imagined that are possible 
thanks to mere Internet.

> I do think (contrary to my younger self) that some collective goods 
> and free rider problems cannot be solved TODAY and so cannot call 
> myself a true libertarian, but I remain supportive of that as an ideal 
> and hold out hope that we can eventually make that an achievable form 
> of society. In the meantime, certainly we could move a huge distance 
> in that direction.

Libertarianism as the limit as technology makes the world as 
low-friction and rational as possible? Hmm, limit libertarianism has a 
nice assonance.


-- 
Anders Sandberg,
Future of Humanity Institute
Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University



From spike66 at att.net  Sat Nov 17 14:20:45 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2012 06:20:45 -0800
Subject: [ExI] bees again
Message-ID: <01ba01cdc4ce$bca32d10$35e98730$@att.net>

Cool!  I was aware that Europeans brought honeybees to North America, but I
didn't know that pumpkins depend on them for pollination.  I should have
been able to figure it out, since they have those big flowers.  This comment
was posted on one of my bee groups:

 


The BUZZ: No Pumpkin Pie


Did you know that honeybees are not native to North America? Honeybees (Apis
mellifera) have been tended since ancient times in Europe and the Middle
East, but were first brought to the Americas on ships to provide honey and
candle wax. 

So, when the pilgrims sat down to their first Thanksgiving dinner in the
autumn of 1621, there was no honey on the table. And, there was no pumpkin
pie. In fact, there were none of the bee-pollinated foods that have become
part of the holiday tradition, like cranberries or apples. 

The first recorded arrival of honeybees in North America was one year later
in 1622 when hives were brought ashore at the Virginia colony. The
honeybees, stressed from their sea voyage, readily took to the pollen and
nectar afforded by the Spring meadows and forests of the new colony. Some
swarmed off and went feral, making their way deeper into the American
heartland.

Native Americans knew their native bees, but did not have a word for the
honeybees which they noticed arriving just before the settlement of
Europeans. Some tribes called them the "White Man's Fly." It would be more
than 200 years later in the mid 19th century before honeybees arrived on the
West Coast and Hawaii either by migration west or by ship. Since then, both
honeybees and native bees have co-existed, offering the benefit of
pollinating our food and maintaining the balance of natural areas. In fact,
one of the most iconic foods on our Thanksgiving tables, the cranberry,
relies on pollinators to set fruit. It's estimated that only about half of
the blooms in modern cranberry bogs set fruit, and depend on the honey bee
and a few species of native bees to do the job. 

Pollination is also essential for pumpkins. In fact, there are some species
of bee that specialize in pumpkin and squash pollen for survival. Their
range matched that of the native squash plants the bees depended on for
food. The squashes and pumpkins couldn't reproduce without help from those
particular bees. They depend on each other.

 

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From mbb386 at main.nc.us  Sat Nov 17 14:50:44 2012
From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB)
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2012 09:50:44 -0500
Subject: [ExI] bees again
In-Reply-To: <01ba01cdc4ce$bca32d10$35e98730$@att.net>
References: <01ba01cdc4ce$bca32d10$35e98730$@att.net>
Message-ID: <a855d7df4c592fc12e8c48cd819e858c.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>



> Cool!  I was aware that Europeans brought honeybees to
> North America, but I
> didn't know that pumpkins depend on them for pollination.
> I should have
> been able to figure it out, since they have those big
> flowers.  This comment
> was posted on one of my bee groups:
>
>


spike, this doesn't make sense to me.  Pumpkins are native
to the North America - and so (IIUC) are cranberries, so
they have native pollinators.

There is a specific type of native bee that does pumpkins,
it's called the Squash Bee.

<http://twentypoundtabby.blogspot.com/2012/08/peponapis-pruinosa-probably-pollinated.html>

Regards,
MB

>
>
> The BUZZ: No Pumpkin Pie
>
>
> Did you know that honeybees are not native to North
> America? Honeybees (Apis
> mellifera) have been tended since ancient times in Europe
> and the Middle
> East, but were first brought to the Americas on ships to
> provide honey and
> candle wax.
>
> So, when the pilgrims sat down to their first Thanksgiving
> dinner in the
> autumn of 1621, there was no honey on the table. And,
> there was no pumpkin
> pie. In fact, there were none of the bee-pollinated foods
> that have become
> part of the holiday tradition, like cranberries or apples.
>



From pharos at gmail.com  Sat Nov 17 14:01:14 2012
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2012 14:01:14 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Conscientious objections
In-Reply-To: <50A7822D.7060800@aleph.se>
References: <CAAc1gFizs0+k6D9-YAERqNF1tUb_eZ0ft6Q3WhQ3cKqpcVQq9Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQ3oZrwp7HXn4Ed2V+mLp+PBqJyR8ZVWgi7AHhJDF81dQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJX-7wXqZSkG-cnNZY1oNiHB06Pan9a2i0AJhN5XOdjXxF5FZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a7m-chwTUSV+7824gTZrCBYZj6XzeGnQse2740qjSwQ1g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQyUCjibTNEcaguy0zFR=TSvD555=H2WziWk81xGwtv5g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJX-7wUbznHOre+Eyxji_OgX-JmuHSXQxdON8TLTOkE+0uGT8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNT3kyFw2+m9K5kE1DtEUMMepszEiGj32cB4uvX1gbRt5A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFjeq=mfELaOxk75+oZNFrwxKd19-RyvyHKaZbgvtSCYhg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRLfn1T-KS5LCooYL7tV-i1Y9vpWvGRxhY3-jsq-JSyVA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1353103728.91925.YahooMailNeo@web126205.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAJX-7wX43pOUrZDybJzDC9jM-We-CtB3FioVOLatKeMEv=RVkw@mail.gmail.com>
 <50A7822D.7060800@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <CAL_armhBgUaTw2iM6A=Jgohmxttw=JM3XaedLjcrO_PWgerRKw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Nov 17, 2012 at 12:25 PM, Anders Sandberg wrote:
> I think this is a key realisation. Some political systems require cultural
> or technological preconditions that take time (and effort!) to develop.
>
> Same thing with parliamentary democracy and printing presses. Which makes me
> wonder what systems we have not even imagined that are possible thanks to
> mere Internet.
>
>


Even with t' internet, there are lots of possible risks.
You would need controls over the tyranny of the majority, just like
democracy. (Democracy would also be nice without the tyranny of the
very rich minority).
Also allow for the minority that are not connected online and who
probably have *very* different opinions.

I suspect another problem might be the instant knee-jerk reactions
that flood the internet. Deep thought and rounded consideration
doesn't seem to feature much among the majority of comment threads,
Twitter, etc.
Can we have elections every month as peoples' opinions swing around
with the latest 'hot or not' craze?


BillK


From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Sat Nov 17 15:16:12 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2012 16:16:12 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Vegetative patient free of pain
In-Reply-To: <1353110725.8177.YahooMailNeo@web126203.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1211141939530.13627@tau.ceti.pl>
 <1353110725.8177.YahooMailNeo@web126203.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a77TTQ_QJDZWXDDRHqbbcTg-hEq=553sKMonqedkBAz-w@mail.gmail.com>

On 17 November 2012 01:05, Dan <dan_ust at yahoo.com> wrote:

> While I'm not against individuals having a right to die, there's a couple
> of problems here. I'd want to make sure the technique was reliable -- that
> the person really wanted to die as opposed to misreading some scan and then
> causing an irreversible choice to be made.
>

Actually, one wonders what degree of certainty we should require, given
that currently choice is made by people other than patients in vegetative
(and, supposedly, entirely unconscious) state. So, let us say that the
technology could be used to argue that a given patient does NOT want to
die, even though we are not 100% sure of the message.

Having said that, I expect that the technology will become an argument for
pro-life partisans to the effect that people responding in any way should
not be allowed to die in any case ("hey, if they want to die they are
conscious, so this is euthanasia, bla-bla).

Strangely enough, while I have always thought transhumanism being about
self-determination, I realised from posts on the Longevity Party FB group
that some of us actually considers life-extension not in the light of
lifespan-extension, but in the light of life allegedly being something good
per se, to the point of having to be promoted, if not actively forced, on
those who might prefer otherwise.

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From spike66 at att.net  Sat Nov 17 15:48:16 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2012 07:48:16 -0800
Subject: [ExI] bees again
In-Reply-To: <a855d7df4c592fc12e8c48cd819e858c.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
References: <01ba01cdc4ce$bca32d10$35e98730$@att.net>
 <a855d7df4c592fc12e8c48cd819e858c.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
Message-ID: <01cb01cdc4da$f6434210$e2c9c630$@att.net>


>... On Behalf Of MB
Subject: Re: [ExI] bees again



>>... Cool!  I was aware that Europeans brought honeybees to North America, 
> but I didn't know that pumpkins depend on them for pollination.
> I should have been able to figure it out, since they have those big
flowers.  This 
> comment was posted on one of my bee groups:
>
>


>...spike, this doesn't make sense to me.  Pumpkins are native to the North
America - and so (IIUC) are cranberries, so
they have native pollinators.  There is a specific type of native bee that
does pumpkins,
it's called the Squash Bee.

<http://twentypoundtabby.blogspot.com/2012/08/peponapis-pruinosa-probably-po
llinated.html>

Regards,
MB


Cool thanks MB,  myth busted!  Any article that uses alliteration like that
must be true: Peponalis prininosa probably pollinated pilgrims' pie pumpkins
perfectly.

spike



From pharos at gmail.com  Sat Nov 17 17:17:09 2012
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2012 17:17:09 +0000
Subject: [ExI] bees again
In-Reply-To: <01cb01cdc4da$f6434210$e2c9c630$@att.net>
References: <01ba01cdc4ce$bca32d10$35e98730$@att.net>
 <a855d7df4c592fc12e8c48cd819e858c.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
 <01cb01cdc4da$f6434210$e2c9c630$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAL_armhrzNrXCzUcNVouW7_tdEk6QYxj0oE9U-6oJJ-XZU+OrQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Nov 17, 2012 at 3:48 PM, spike wrote:
> Cool thanks MB,  myth busted!  Any article that uses alliteration like that
> must be true: Peponalis prininosa probably pollinated pilgrims' pie pumpkins
> perfectly.
>
>

I think it is more complicated than it first appears.
Yes, the squash bee is native to the US and it pollinates squash
plants very well. In gardens they probably do fine, as the writer
suggests.

But modern farms can be hundreds of acres in size and farmers need to
provide a suitable environment for a large number of squash bees to
nest in. So if farmers want to use squash bees, they have to plan for
cultivating them as well as their squash plants. Squash bees nest in
the ground near to squash plants and tilling the ground and spraying
insecticide will probably kill them off. So modern farming practice
often means that farmers have to bring in hives of honey bees to make
sure all their plants get pollinated.


BillK


From mbb386 at main.nc.us  Sat Nov 17 18:16:03 2012
From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB)
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2012 13:16:03 -0500
Subject: [ExI] bees again
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armhrzNrXCzUcNVouW7_tdEk6QYxj0oE9U-6oJJ-XZU+OrQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <01ba01cdc4ce$bca32d10$35e98730$@att.net>
 <a855d7df4c592fc12e8c48cd819e858c.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
 <01cb01cdc4da$f6434210$e2c9c630$@att.net>
 <CAL_armhrzNrXCzUcNVouW7_tdEk6QYxj0oE9U-6oJJ-XZU+OrQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f17a4c6d6024e81859e44e73b9bf0fc9.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>


> Squash
> bees nest in
> the ground near to squash plants and tilling the ground
> and spraying
> insecticide will probably kill them off. So modern farming
> practice
> often means that farmers have to bring in hives of honey
> bees to make
> sure all their plants get pollinated.
>

Yes, this would be likely.

Although my local bee keepers are having trouble with
their hives, plants are being pollinated by beetles, ants,
native bees, moths, butterflies.  I saw very few honeybees
this summer, but it was the best ever for green beans,
yellow squash, and tomatoes.... not to mention cucumbers
and nasturtiums and moonflowers. :)

Tilling the ground has a definite downside.  I don't do it.

But I'm small time gardening, not agri-business.

Regards,
MB




From spike66 at att.net  Sat Nov 17 18:41:50 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2012 10:41:50 -0800
Subject: [ExI] bees again
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armhrzNrXCzUcNVouW7_tdEk6QYxj0oE9U-6oJJ-XZU+OrQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <01ba01cdc4ce$bca32d10$35e98730$@att.net>
 <a855d7df4c592fc12e8c48cd819e858c.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
 <01cb01cdc4da$f6434210$e2c9c630$@att.net>
 <CAL_armhrzNrXCzUcNVouW7_tdEk6QYxj0oE9U-6oJJ-XZU+OrQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <01eb01cdc4f3$354f5120$9fedf360$@att.net>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of BillK
...
>...I think it is more complicated than it first appears.
Yes, the squash bee is native to the US and it pollinates squash plants very
well. In gardens they probably do fine, as the writer suggests.  But modern
farms can be hundreds of acres in size and farmers need to provide a
suitable environment for a large number of squash bees to nest in...
BillK
_______________________________________________

This is why I love hanging out here.  You guys are the best.  The analysis
is several layers deeper and more accurate than is often found elsewhere.

The emerging technology is in robots than roll over the fields 24/7 using
image recognition to identify the crop plants and spray just a little
fertilizer directly on that plant, identify the weeds and spray one little
shot of herbicide on that one weed, identify the bad bugs and zap it perhaps
with a laser, leave the good ones.  This means lower fertilizer and
pesticide bills, EXCELLENT! 

http://singularityhub.com/2012/09/19/lettuce-bot-rolls-through-crops-termina
tes-weeds-it-visually-identifies/

This approach would allow preparing a field without plowing the whole thing,
or perhaps plow just narrow rows, using far less energy, COOL!  It might
also allow the use of native ground-burrowing bees as opposed to just
honeybees.  I like both and I am always in favor of anything that makes for
more bugs in this world, so overrun as it is with mostly boring old mammals.

Of course next thing you know, these farmbots will try to organize a union.
Sooner or later, they will be outfitted with a speech generation chip and
they will start to argue that any speech they synthesize is covered under
the freedoms in the first amendment, regardless of the absurdity of the
nonsensical machine-generated babble they spew.

I still think this farmbot thing is wicked cool, and will likely invest in
one as soon as it hits the market.

spike  



From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Sat Nov 17 22:53:36 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2012 23:53:36 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Life @ Playstation
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1211041732160.14058@tau.ceti.pl>
References: <CAPoR7a7TfytDPq0BJsuV3vuh0AMFhzDP5tDDw5fJsG3woRd6QQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1211040351090.1564@tau.ceti.pl>
 <CAPoR7a72WohEYQx2vErC=Cn0yVTSM6Vbs2+==cNxurPHdrePqg@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAPoR7a6AV_FGCuFPDmNAQuhjmHGeS+rGADdD=b58R+ot78+D2A@mail.gmail.com>

On 4 November 2012 18:04, Tomasz Rola <rtomek at ceti.pl> wrote:

> You mean this table?
> http://fah-web.stanford.edu/cgi-bin/main.py?qtype=osstats
>

By now, the more or less 300 Tflops traditionally contributed by the
Windows and Linux CPU communities each are down to 177 and 70
respectively, GPUs are also not doing too well, and the overall number of
Tflops is 3677, which is little more than *one third* of what was achieved
in the past, and that in spite of the growing power of contributors'
processors and the time GPU clients have been available!

Not exactly an exponential growth, in my book, in spite of Mr Pande's
conferences about exaflops Real Soon Now.

So, even some 200,000 processors are still on board worldwide (out of 8,5
millions who participated in time to the project), I am concerned that
Folding at Home might be... just folding, after all.

Besides the loss for science, this of course tells us more on societal
values and what really expects us than the raw power expected from a single
Chinese supercomputer to come.

--
Stefano Vaj
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From dan_ust at yahoo.com  Sun Nov 18 23:05:16 2012
From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan)
Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2012 15:05:16 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ExI] Vegetative patient free of pain
In-Reply-To: <CAPoR7a77TTQ_QJDZWXDDRHqbbcTg-hEq=553sKMonqedkBAz-w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1211141939530.13627@tau.ceti.pl>
 <1353110725.8177.YahooMailNeo@web126203.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
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Message-ID: <1353279916.35742.YahooMailNeo@web126203.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

On Saturday, November 17, 2012 10:16 AM Stefano Vaj <stefano.vaj at gmail.com> wrote:

> On 17 November 2012 01:05, Dan <dan_ust at yahoo.com> wrote:
>> While I'm not against individuals having a right to die, there's a
>> couple of problems here. I'd want to make sure the technique was reliable
>> -- that the person really wanted to die as opposed to misreading some scan
>> and then causing an irreversible choice to be made.
>
> Actually, one wonders what degree of certainty we should require, given that
> currently choice is made by people other than patients in vegetative (and,
> supposedly, entirely unconscious) state. So, let us say that the technology
> could be used to argue that a given patient does NOT want to die, even though
> we are not 100% sure of the message.

I would err on the side of the message be right when it's of the "I want to live" type and possibly mistaken when it's the opposite. That seems the reasonable position to take, no? I think were this to become the norm, procedures would likely evolve to make sure, as much as practicable, that the death choice wasn't a mistake.

> Having said that, I expect that the technology will become an argument
> for pro-life partisans to the effect that people responding in any way should
> not be allowed to die in any case ("hey, if they want to die they are
> conscious, so this is euthanasia, bla-bla).

Well, there's a different argument there. If someone believes suicide is not to be permitted, then, yeah, it doesn't matter what the patient wants. But I was talking about when one doesn't hold that view.

Also, what do you mean by "euthanasia"? The term is often used to mean when the patient makes the request. In this case, of course, the problem is if the patient has made the request (the reliability). If it's someone else making it, then it's another kettle of fish.


> Strangely enough, while I have always thought transhumanism being about
> self-determination,

Same here, which is always surprises me that many if not most self-identified transhumanists seem to want to coerce other people, as in embracing various forms of statism. (For me, when you initiate coercion against someone, you're basically ending their self-determination -- i.e., you're using force to get the outcome you desire and which, for obvious reasons, they don't.) I've chalked this up to two things: 1) as the movement has grown it more reflects the kinds of political and moral beliefs the wider culture holds (and most people in our various cultures have nothing against use force,? even if they do so in their everyday lives, to resolve all kinds of social problems, real or imaginary) and 2) there is no philosophical, doctrinal, or ideological determinism (in other words, people tend to mix and match views rather than form a consistent system of them).


> I realised from posts on the Longevity Party FB group that some of us actually
> considers life-extension not in the light of lifespan-extension, but in the light
> of life allegedly being something good per se, to the point of having to be
> promoted, if not actively forced, on those who might prefer otherwise. 

Yeah, that kind of chimes in with my above points.

Regards,

Dan




From clementlawyer at gmail.com  Sun Nov 18 23:39:21 2012
From: clementlawyer at gmail.com (James Clement)
Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2012 18:39:21 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Ken MacLeod on Transhumanism
Message-ID: <CA+LBAbT62An+7XZfCKL6QHcY4AuHJ80H_aRC+0Qv6d7+c4B80A@mail.gmail.com>

Thought this might interest everyone. I don't endorse his opinions, I'm
just passing this on.

The ends of humanity

Socialism is dead, and the transhuman future looms. Is there any way to
recover a sense of global purpose?

http://www.aeonmagazine.com/world-views/ken-macleod-socialism-and-transhumanism/

Shortly after the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001, a friend
forwarded me a post from an obscure email list. The writer had calculated
that the continued existence of Afghanistan would delay the Rapture by six
months. Millions around the world who would have had a chance of eternal
bliss would be irretrievably lost to natural deaths in the interim.
According to strict utilitarian reckoning, exterminating the Afghans via a
nuclear carpet-bombing campaign would be the kinder course.

This heinous calculus didn?t come from the email list of some apocalyptic
cult but from the ?extropians?, advocates of a massive technological
upgrade in the human condition. The event in question wasn?t in fact the
Rapture but the Singularity: a predicted moment when the speed of
technological advance would go off the scale and, in passing, let us
abolish ageing, disease, poverty, and death. For extropians and other
adherents to the doctrines of transhumanism, the human condition has been,
in principle, a solved problem since 1953, when Watson and Crick published
the structure of DNA. The rest is engineering.

For science fiction writers, of course, this is catnip. I first encountered
transhumanism through the extropians, and exploited their ideas so
enthusiastically that I?ve been counted among them myself. It was an
extropian who first sarcastically defined the Singularity as ?the Rapture
of the nerds?, and I had a character use a variant of the phrase in my book
*The Cassini Division* (1999). If you ask the internet, you?ll find the
original endlessly attributed to me ? which tells us something, but I?m not
sure what.

In his book *Humanity 2.0 *(2011), Steve Fuller, professor of sociology at
the University of Warwick, uses transhumanist themes to make a challenging
point about humanism. He argues that Jewish, Christian, and Muslim
theology, along with most Western philosophy, held that there was a human
essence. Indeed, all species were defined by their essences, an idea that
goes back to Aristotle. The idea that species might change was (almost
literally) unthinkable: essences were thought to be as abstract and eternal
as numbers. Darwin dissolved all such essences into populations, each of
which had no intrinsic limit to variation. Philosophers of biology have
long recognised that the shift from essentialist thinking to ?population
thinking? was crucial to the modern understanding of evolution a point
first fully articulatued by Ernst Mayr.

But once ?humanity? becomes a variant set of populations rather than an
invariant essence, it loses its obviousness as a standard of value. The
category becomes fuzzy at the edges: some parts of the population can be
written out of humanity altogether; some superhuman (but still natural)
entity, such as Nietzsche?s *?bermensch* or the extropians? imagined
transcendent future selves, might be seen as worth sacrificing present
humans for. Alternatively nonhuman beings could come to seem as morally
significant as humans, as is argued by animal rights advocates.

If you throw in the possibility of human enhancement ? increased
intelligence and longer healthy life spans ?? it can only exacerbate the
situation. Fuller argues that many people are already moving beyond the
'human baseline', through online life and smart drugs. New and foreseeable
technological and cultural developments make the boundaries of human and
non-human even fuzzier, and possible distinctions (in intelligence, life
span, health, abilities) within the human population even sharper. The
principles of the welfare state, Fuller suggests, might be widely enough
accepted to give us a basis for moral and political discussion, action, and
eventual agreement on these questions. He argues that we should embrace the
prospect of becoming Humanity 2.0, and bring it within democratic politics.
The problem, as Fuller well recognises, is constituting a ?we? who can do
that.

And so it becomes harder to imagine humanity as a unified body, able to
shape a shared project around a common interest. Perhaps the time for such
visions is already over. Since monotheism's hold on grand theories declined
in the 'West' the most ambitious, secular political movement to attempt to
frame one was socialism, particularly in its Marxist form. It did this in
two ways: theoretical and practical.

Theoretically, Marxism came up with a secular, materialist account of what
made humanity distinctive: a complex, evolving, and indefinitely extendable
interaction of labour, consciousness, and social relations, all rooted in
the mutually reinforcing co-development of hand, brain, and tongue. This
account did not depend on philosophical notions of human essence, so it was
able to withstand Darwinian dissolution. From its speculative beginnings in
the 1840s, Marxist theory had incorporated (necessarily hazy) evolutionary
assumptions and of course was an historicist account of the human
condition. It went on to welcome and include Darwin?s work: see, for
example, Friedrich Engels?s influential fragment ?The Part Played by Labour
in the Transition from Ape to Man? (1876), in which the philosophical
anthropology of Engels?s youth is recast as a Darwinian story of human
origins ? one that palaeontology was later to confirm.

A less happy consequence of the end of socialism as a mass ideology is the
end of humanity as an imagined community

Practically, socialism (in both its communist and social democratic forms)
set out to construct a common political project for the claimed ultimate
benefit of all humanity. Particularly in its communist variant, this
project sought to include not only the working class of the West but also
hundreds of millions in the then-colonial world as part of a collective
political subject (what the left-wing anthem celebrates as ?the
Internationale?). Marxist socialism acted in the name of a future in which,
as the anthem has it, ?the Internationale will be the human race?. What
they did includes much that makes a mockery of all that. But for all that,
they didn?t stop claiming it.

At their peak, various forms of socialism counted their proponents ? and
their subjects ? in the hundreds of millions. Outside communist states,
democratic socialists founded their utopian-seeming hopes in the mundane
politics of elections, campaigns, and wage claims. They argued that it was
in the self-interest of organised labour to defend democratic rights,
oppose racial and sectarian division, uphold peace, and so on. As
sociological analysis, a sentiment such as ?Racism is a tool of the bosses
to divide us!? might not be terribly sophisticated, or even true. But, as
politics, it works. Karl Marx laid down the law in *Das Kapital*, Vol 1
(1867): ?Labour cannot emancipate itself in the white skin where in the
black it is branded.? The same logic applied to other forms of oppression.
When socialists reneged on these commitments, as they all too often did,
their own fundamental principles (and principled fundamentalists) could be
called on to bring them to account.

This is so astonishing that it?s easily overlooked. In terms of appealing
to the common interests of humanity ??? even if purely as a cover for
smaller or more sordid interests ? only the great religions have attempted
anything like it. No other secular ideology has tried to be a totalising
force in the same way. Partly in reaction to, and partly in competition
with, the communist challenge, a common sense of universalism and common
humanity did become institutionalised after the Second World War in the UN,
in a system of human rights and the development of other instruments of
international law. Inspiring as this liberal, global humanism was, and real
as its achievements have been, it has lacked socialism?s firm footing in
the material self-interests of individuals.

Now, with the death of communism and social democracy's struggle to sustain
its postwar gains, the idea of the whole of humanity as a potential
political subject barely exists. Socialism is dead, and its death ? as
Nietzsche observed of God?s ? has had unexpected effects. One of the less
happy consequences of the end of socialism as a mass ideology is the end of
humanity as an imagined community. This has consequences in our real
communities; the rise of far-right parties across Europe is one of them.

The aims of those who held the reins of power in communist states may have
been little more than to keep hold of them by any means possible. But the
aims of most of the millions of ordinary people who believed in socialism
were modest: full employment, social security, free education, and
healthcare. For almost a lifetime after the Second World War, it seemed as
if these were obtainable within social democratic capitalism. But they
seemed, paradoxically, to depend for their credibility on the far-off but,
to some, alluring prospect of abolishing capitalism altogether. I well
remember Britain?s late-1970s Labour prime minister, James Callaghan,
declare that we would eventually establish in Britain a society based on
the principle of ?from each according to his ability, to each according to
his needs?. Strangely, he was not denounced as a communist; it was
understood that such grand aims were right for sentimental songs and May
Day speeches. But as soon as the grand aims were abandoned, the modest
gains were snatched away. Now we are told from every respectable outlet
that the gains were unaffordable and the aims were deluded all along.

The challenge for humanists and liberals in the face of a transhuman future
is daunting: to replace the socialist project ? or to revive it. Without
something like it to underpin a sense of common human identity and common
human interest, people will divide on the basis of other identities. Many
on the left, of course, have found in identity politics a replacement for
the universalism of their past. But identity can also be seized on by the
far right. It can feed a resentful indifference to the plight of others
that comes from having one?s own plight disregarded.

All right. So the aim of a peaceful, global community of equality,
reasonable security, and material abundance was a fantasy. Make us drink
that cup to the dregs, but don?t expect us to be humanists after we?ve
wiped our lips. If labour in the white skin can never emancipate itself,
why should it care if in the black it is branded?




James
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From ddraig at gmail.com  Mon Nov 19 07:47:40 2012
From: ddraig at gmail.com (ddraig)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2012 18:47:40 +1100
Subject: [ExI] Life @ Playstation
In-Reply-To: <002b01cdbb6c$c970fe20$5c52fa60$@att.net>
References: <CAPoR7a7TfytDPq0BJsuV3vuh0AMFhzDP5tDDw5fJsG3woRd6QQ@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CAL_armhT8JjrzYBxhqjZvMZuVOgGuVcF_ry9YjZQG-FjYwadmg@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAGfkSy3e5PEXUvjxqqs8Fif+nzeEbzt966qyZ=Jm3MSn7ODjAw@mail.gmail.com>

On 6 November 2012 02:46, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

>  yeah, I've heard this my entire life:  "if you're so smart, why aren't
> you rich?"   Well, because it's boring, and the sort of people you meet
> along the way tend to be horrible, that's why.
>
> Dwayne, eventually I thought of a good retort to that question, If you?re
> so smart, why ain?t ya rich:  If YOU?RE so smart, how do you know I ain?t
> rich?
>


Oh, no, my answer has always been: define rich.  I have spent most of my
adult life doing exactly what I wanted, every day, without having to worry
about food and survival, with the freedom to spend my time however I wish.
This is the end-result of being rich throughout history, as far as I can
tell.

$$-poor but time-rich, and control of my life is all that matters to me.

That being said I am right now working as a wage slave, and it totally
sucks.  But I'm homeless so I have to do it.  When I move I'm going to make
and (hopefully) sell small clusters with a friend of mine. Wish me luck.

Dwayne

-- 
  ddraig at pobox.com irc.bluesphereweb.com #dna
         ...r.e.t.u.r.n....t.o....t.h.e....s.o.u.r.c.e...
        http://tinyurl.com/he-is-right-you-know-jpg
our aim is wakefulness,  our enemy is dreamless sleep
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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Mon Nov 19 11:11:45 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2012 12:11:45 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Life @ Playstation
In-Reply-To: <CAGfkSy3e5PEXUvjxqqs8Fif+nzeEbzt966qyZ=Jm3MSn7ODjAw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPoR7a7TfytDPq0BJsuV3vuh0AMFhzDP5tDDw5fJsG3woRd6QQ@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAPoR7a45sM3_8WiaTKe_sP8wq27EfVzXbpJx_0XttWCKX7+tHg@mail.gmail.com>

On 19 November 2012 08:47, ddraig <ddraig at gmail.com> wrote:

> Oh, no, my answer has always been: define rich.  I have spent most of my
> adult life doing exactly what I wanted, every day, without having to worry
> about food and survival, with the freedom to spend my time however I wish.
> This is the end-result of being rich throughout history, as far as I can
> tell.
>

I would rather say: define "smart".

In fact, the validation of IQ testing is based on it allegedly being
predictive of your academic/social/professional fitness and success in
western societies, at least all other things being equal.

So, saying "if you have a very high IQ, you do not care about all that"
simply means that IQ testing fails about that, at least at the upper end of
the scale and on the side of motivation, and that being very good with
those tests may actually correlate with a social disadvantage or handicap.

Nothing especially surprising here, some forms of autism may be correlated
with good performances in some specific areas. even though it may be
reasonable to consider them a "disease" in most practical senses.

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From pharos at gmail.com  Mon Nov 19 13:05:35 2012
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2012 13:05:35 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Why space tech isn't cutting edge
Message-ID: <CAL_armhBmUOxH8N24yc6G8Wv75Ld9yzwVr2qO3hprpmKZ=LiBg@mail.gmail.com>

Interesting article about how hard it is to keep computers alive in space.
(Never mind humans!).
Did you know that after a special upgrade Shuttle flight the Hubble
system is now run by a 486 chip?

<http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/11/19/it_is_rocket_science_chips_in_space/>

Quote:
 The fact of the matter is that even the most advanced chips up there
were considered obsolete ten years ago down here. Although it?s true
that in space no one can hear you scream, outer space is actually a
very noisy place, electromagnetically speaking.

Take NASA?s Curiosity rover, currently trundling across the Martian
surface. It uses a RAD750 computer from BAE Systems. The RAD750 is
based on the PowerPC 750 chip once found in Apple?s G3 iMac. That
machine debuted in 1997, but it took four more years for the RAD750 to
be released, and it didn?t see its first flight until 2005 when Deep
Impact was flung comet-ward.
--------------


BillK



From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Mon Nov 19 14:16:47 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2012 15:16:47 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Vegetative patient free of pain
In-Reply-To: <1353279916.35742.YahooMailNeo@web126203.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1211141939530.13627@tau.ceti.pl>
 <1353110725.8177.YahooMailNeo@web126203.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAPoR7a77TTQ_QJDZWXDDRHqbbcTg-hEq=553sKMonqedkBAz-w@mail.gmail.com>
 <1353279916.35742.YahooMailNeo@web126203.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a4HAMTQHy9rHwfPjShL-N6Ai3Jq2NFht+d4GNhaUW03+Q@mail.gmail.com>

On 19 November 2012 00:05, Dan <dan_ust at yahoo.com> wrote:

> I would err on the side of the message be right when it's of the "I want
> to live" type and possibly mistaken when it's the opposite. That seems the
> reasonable position to take, no?
>

Yes, I think it appears reasonable at least not to ignore possible "make me
live" messages, even though this may mean that a few vegetative patients
will be kept alive that are not actually conscious, do want to die, or
simply do not care.


>  > Having said that, I expect that the technology will become an argument
> > for pro-life partisans to the effect that people responding in any way
> should
> > not be allowed to die in any case ("hey, if they want to die they are
> > conscious, so this is euthanasia, bla-bla).
>
> Well, there's a different argument there. If someone believes suicide is
> not to be permitted, then, yeah, it doesn't matter what the patient wants.
> But I was talking about when one doesn't hold that view.
>

OK. I am just saying that those who are against assisted suicide will make
the request to die a proof that the vegetative patient is in fact "alive"
and conscious.


> Also, what do you mean by "euthanasia"? The term is often used to mean
> when the patient makes the request. In this case, of course, the problem is
> if the patient has made the request (the reliability). If it's someone else
> making it, then it's another kettle of fish.
>

Currently, life-death decisions are certainly not made by vegetative
patients, nor by newborns. Still, the relevant procedures are usually still
called euthanasia.

Same here, which is always surprises me that many if not most
> self-identified transhumanists seem to want to coerce other people, as in
> embracing various forms of statism.


My point is however subtler: let us say that we do not intend to "coerce"
nobody to live longer then he wish in a legal sense.

Do we consider persuading him to do so, or fostering a "live as long as you
can at any cost" culture, part of our mission?

Because if the answer is "no", we can spare ourselves all the stupid debate
about "are longer-living humans really happier, aren't they going to get
bored, isn't intensity better than duration, etc", because basically what
we want is simply having not just the option of dying, but also the option
of living.

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From spike66 at att.net  Mon Nov 19 14:20:17 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2012 06:20:17 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Why space tech isn't cutting edge
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armhBmUOxH8N24yc6G8Wv75Ld9yzwVr2qO3hprpmKZ=LiBg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armhBmUOxH8N24yc6G8Wv75Ld9yzwVr2qO3hprpmKZ=LiBg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00c101cdc661$00783e20$0168ba60$@att.net>


.... On Behalf Of BillK
Subject: [ExI] Why space tech isn't cutting edge

>...Did you know that after a special upgrade Shuttle flight the Hubble
system is now run by a 486 chip?

<http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/11/19/it_is_rocket_science_chips_in_space
/>

...
--------------BillK

_______________________________________________

Ja, I was on a team which did a lot of experimentation with the 486 for
space use.  It is better suited for that purpose than most anything that
came after it, because of its heat generation characteristics and its
feature size, which is enormous compared to what we have now.  This large
feature size makes it far less susceptible to what we used to call RISEUs,
or radiation-induced single event upsets.  This is where a cosmic ray causes
one bit to flip.  All pentiums (pentia?) we ever tested were all messed up
by RISEUs, but the good old 486 would survive.

My contribution to all this is in developing a silver filled epoxy material
which conducts heat from the periphery of the chip into the circuit board so
you can attach a heat-sink on the underside.  All this was in the 1989 to
1992 timeframe.  Also, the 486 is very forgiving if you want to underclock
it to keep it cool.  Also there is a lot of space flight control software in
existence for that chip, meaning it is software that is sufficiently tested
and documented so that it will not crash and kill you up there. 

Also, we preserved a few thousand 486s, anticipating future use, and still
have them. 

Fun days!

spike



From dan_ust at yahoo.com  Mon Nov 19 16:21:12 2012
From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2012 08:21:12 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ExI] Why space tech isn't cutting edge
In-Reply-To: <00c101cdc661$00783e20$0168ba60$@att.net>
References: <CAL_armhBmUOxH8N24yc6G8Wv75Ld9yzwVr2qO3hprpmKZ=LiBg@mail.gmail.com>
 <00c101cdc661$00783e20$0168ba60$@att.net>
Message-ID: <1353342072.81852.YahooMailNeo@web126201.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

Why is this news? I thought it was widely known that electronics on space missions is always several years behind what's being done elsewhere.

Regards,

Dan
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From pharos at gmail.com  Mon Nov 19 17:02:14 2012
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2012 17:02:14 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Why space tech isn't cutting edge
In-Reply-To: <1353342072.81852.YahooMailNeo@web126201.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <CAL_armhBmUOxH8N24yc6G8Wv75Ld9yzwVr2qO3hprpmKZ=LiBg@mail.gmail.com>
 <00c101cdc661$00783e20$0168ba60$@att.net>
 <1353342072.81852.YahooMailNeo@web126201.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armgm+HL3tbkOFsNi4=qB7Q+L6DVqZqG_r8Oy1uDhjRtbkQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 4:21 PM, Dan wrote:
> Why is this news? I thought it was widely known that electronics on space
> missions is always several years behind what's being done elsewhere.
>
>

It is not just several years. It's more like 15 years behind.
You would expect long duration space missions to be several years
behind, but that's not the point.

Your ordinary pc chips can't just be sent up into space. The radiation
out there would cause them to deteriorate / malfunction quite quickly,
as the article explains. And no, wrapping them in tin foil doesn't
work.

So the chips have to be specially hardened and protected by extra
years of development.
The problem gets worse as the density of modern chips increases.
The latest chips use 22nm and 32nm technology whereas the 486 used 800
and 1000nm technology. This means that every stray cosmic ray causes
much more damage in a modern chip.


BillK


From spike66 at att.net  Mon Nov 19 17:11:09 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2012 09:11:09 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Why space tech isn't cutting edge
In-Reply-To: <1353342072.81852.YahooMailNeo@web126201.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <CAL_armhBmUOxH8N24yc6G8Wv75Ld9yzwVr2qO3hprpmKZ=LiBg@mail.gmail.com>
 <00c101cdc661$00783e20$0168ba60$@att.net>
 <1353342072.81852.YahooMailNeo@web126201.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <011501cdc678$dec092b0$9c41b810$@att.net>

 

>. On Behalf Of Dan
Subject: Re: [ExI] Why space tech isn't cutting edge

 

Why is this news? I thought it was widely known that electronics on space
missions is always several years behind what's being done elsewhere.

 

Regards,

 

Dan 

 

 

>.No, this is a common misconception.  The space industry isn't necessarily
*behind* exactly, for if we argue that it is behind, it would imply that we
are trying to get 2002-era processors to work in space, but that isn't the
direction.  We still use early 90s processors, and work instead the
software.  The feature size of microprocessors shrunk steadily, resulting in
vast increases in speed, but it also made the processors more vulnerable to
space radiation.  Furthermore, we ended up with all this speed, and what did
we do with it?  Back in 1990, it took about half a minute to boot up a
computer.  Now, with processors that are a thousand times faster, it only
takes about half a minute to boot up a computer.  Why isn't it 30
milliseconds?  Why is it that you can go into your control panel, look at
system processes and see that your microprocessor is doing basically
nothing, maybe 1 to 2 percent utilization, yet it doesn't really feel much
faster than it did twenty years ago?  With a thousand-fold increase in speed
of processors and a vast increase in memory bus speed, why is it that
computers got so junked up with all those mysterious processes running
alongside what you really need, and even now they STILL crash occasionally,
so that it feels like we made almost no progress at all?

 

Space flight software is stripped down and optimized to where it does
exactly what you need and only what you need, it isn't susceptible to
viruses, it is reliable as an anvil (because the astronauts' lives depend on
it), it has had every line of code tested under every possible input and
when all that expensive testing is done, you have a damn good product.  In
that sense, the space industry isn't behind their commercial counterparts,
it is ahead.  Of course you can't play angry birds up there, and instead of
tweeting to your fellow astronauts, you might need to just talk to them
using your vocal cords, so in that sense they are behind.

 

spike

 

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From brent.allsop at canonizer.com  Mon Nov 19 17:07:53 2012
From: brent.allsop at canonizer.com (Brent Allsop)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2012 10:07:53 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Why space tech isn't cutting edge
In-Reply-To: <1353342072.81852.YahooMailNeo@web126201.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <CAL_armhBmUOxH8N24yc6G8Wv75Ld9yzwVr2qO3hprpmKZ=LiBg@mail.gmail.com>
 <00c101cdc661$00783e20$0168ba60$@att.net>
 <1353342072.81852.YahooMailNeo@web126201.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAK7-onuWv9TYnkePUd9SzQzk+PzPg7tSnJiG8jxjdVrFV-ECwg@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks for this, all you rocket scientists, as that really helps understand
this issue.



What troubles me, is why is medical technology even worse?  For example, I
have an insulin pump (artificial pancreas) because I?m a type 1
diabetic.  Since
this technology is far more than 10 years old, it is basically killing me,
compared to what it could be.  Instead of having an android app, that
displays the information on my nice new 720P resolution color smart phone,
it attempts to display it on a 64 x 128 pixel black and white LCD display,
that is basically technology from the 80s.  And this is only one of a
gazillion things that are killing me, compared to what it could be.



The other thing is, the crude monitoring system isn?t connected to the
insulin delivery system ? i.e. no automated control.  So I have to do
everything myself ? including making mistakes ? that could kill me.  The
manufactures of the device could clearly lesson this risk, but of course,
such would expose them to risk of being sued ? so they completely avoid
anything like that.  So, their basically happy to let me make mistakes and
destroy my life, as long as they aren?t providing anything that would
expose them to any risk.



In other words, they are way behind both technologically and legally, in
the medical field, and this completely sucks!!  Oh that I could jail break
this effing system, and make it do what I want, instead of the way it is
programmed, so the manufacture has no risk, even though it destroys my life.


Brent Allsop



On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 9:21 AM, Dan <dan_ust at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Why is this news? I thought it was widely known that electronics on space
> missions is always several years behind what's being done elsewhere.
>
> Regards,
>
> Dan
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From spike66 at att.net  Mon Nov 19 17:22:19 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2012 09:22:19 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Why space tech isn't cutting edge
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armgm+HL3tbkOFsNi4=qB7Q+L6DVqZqG_r8Oy1uDhjRtbkQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armhBmUOxH8N24yc6G8Wv75Ld9yzwVr2qO3hprpmKZ=LiBg@mail.gmail.com>
 <00c101cdc661$00783e20$0168ba60$@att.net>
 <1353342072.81852.YahooMailNeo@web126201.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAL_armgm+HL3tbkOFsNi4=qB7Q+L6DVqZqG_r8Oy1uDhjRtbkQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <011a01cdc67a$6e201b00$4a605100$@att.net>


>... On Behalf Of BillK
Subject: Re: [ExI] Why space tech isn't cutting edge

On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 4:21 PM, Dan wrote:
>>... Why is this news? I thought it was widely known that electronics on
space missions is always several years behind what's being done elsewhere.

>...It is not just several years. It's more like 15 years behind.

Depends on how you count it.  If we get hit with a nuclear EMP, those space
chips will survive, while all our modern stuff and the ability to make them
all will be up in smoke.  Then the i486 will be 15 years ahead.

>...Your ordinary pc chips can't just be sent up into space. The radiation
out there would cause them to deteriorate / malfunction quite quickly, as
the article explains. And no, wrapping them in tin foil doesn't work...

We never did find any type of shielding that would prevent radiation SEUs in
any of the later processors.  I might argue it might be an artifact of an
over-test at the cyclotron at Berkeley, but I wouldn't hang my life on any
Pentium or later chip in the space environment.  Any shielding that is light
enough to be carried into space creates a shower of secondary particles when
hit with a sufficiently energetic cosmic ray, so that most attempts at
shielding make the problem worse instead of better.  Recall also that it
would need to be shielded from all directions, and that to stop a cosmic
particle would take a huge block of lead.

>...The latest chips use 22nm and 32nm technology whereas the 486 used 800
and 1000nm technology. This means that every stray cosmic ray causes much
more damage in a modern chip...  BillK
_______________________________________________

In space applications, the motto is if it works, don't mess with it.  The
humble i486 works, if you de-clock it from its blazing 40 mega-Hertz and are
old enough to know the definition of the archeo-prefix mega .  If you need
any heavy-duty space-calculations, the way to go is to send the data to the
deck, have the super-computers calculate it and send it back up.

spike



From atymes at gmail.com  Mon Nov 19 17:49:49 2012
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2012 09:49:49 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Why space tech isn't cutting edge
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armgm+HL3tbkOFsNi4=qB7Q+L6DVqZqG_r8Oy1uDhjRtbkQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armhBmUOxH8N24yc6G8Wv75Ld9yzwVr2qO3hprpmKZ=LiBg@mail.gmail.com>
 <00c101cdc661$00783e20$0168ba60$@att.net>
 <1353342072.81852.YahooMailNeo@web126201.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAL_armgm+HL3tbkOFsNi4=qB7Q+L6DVqZqG_r8Oy1uDhjRtbkQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNQEHJQECpwMPYh+sdT8=Q31qMaZT+aOwxDRY0hos066rw@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 9:02 AM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:
> So the chips have to be specially hardened and protected by extra
> years of development.

What about making a coating that would reduce or deflect
the chip-damaging radiation, developing that only once, and
then reusing it for each subsequent generation of chips?


From sandrak.arjona at gmail.com  Mon Nov 19 17:26:53 2012
From: sandrak.arjona at gmail.com (Sandra K Arjona)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2012 12:26:53 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Why space tech isn't cutting edge
In-Reply-To: <011501cdc678$dec092b0$9c41b810$@att.net>
References: <CAL_armhBmUOxH8N24yc6G8Wv75Ld9yzwVr2qO3hprpmKZ=LiBg@mail.gmail.com>
 <00c101cdc661$00783e20$0168ba60$@att.net>
 <1353342072.81852.YahooMailNeo@web126201.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <011501cdc678$dec092b0$9c41b810$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CA+vJbu63Qv5EqxeBUs4EKtEkUTPiBsXkOXSG5=Ku5j9qRL7kTg@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 12:11 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

> ** **
>
> *>?* *On Behalf Of *Dan
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Why space tech isn't cutting edge****
>
> ** **
>
> Why is this news? I thought it was widely known that electronics on space
> missions is always several years behind what's being done elsewhere.****
>
> ** **
>
> Regards,****
>
> ** **
>
> Dan ****
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> >?No, this is a common misconception.  The space industry isn?t
> necessarily **behind** exactly, for if we argue that it is behind, it
> would imply that we are trying to get 2002-era processors to work in space,
> but that isn?t the direction.  We still use early 90s processors, and work
> instead the software.  The feature size of microprocessors shrunk steadily,
> resulting in vast increases in speed, but it also made the processors more
> vulnerable to space radiation.  Furthermore, we ended up with all this
> speed, and what did we do with it?  Back in 1990, it took about half a
> minute to boot up a computer.  Now, with processors that are a thousand
> times faster, it only takes about half a minute to boot up a computer.  Why
> isn?t it 30 milliseconds?  Why is it that you can go into your control
> panel, look at system processes and see that your microprocessor is doing
> basically nothing, maybe 1 to 2 percent utilization, yet it doesn?t really
> feel much faster than it did twenty years ago?  With a thousand-fold
> increase in speed of processors and a vast increase in memory bus speed,
> why is it that computers got so junked up with all those mysterious
> processes running alongside what you really need, and even now they STILL
> crash occasionally, so that it feels like we made almost no progress at all?
> ****
>
> ** **
>
> Space flight software is stripped down and optimized to where it does
> exactly what you need and only what you need, it isn?t susceptible to
> viruses, it is reliable as an anvil (because the astronauts? lives depend
> on it), it has had every line of code tested under every possible input and
> when all that expensive testing is done, you have a damn good product.  In
> that sense, the space industry isn?t behind their commercial counterparts,
> it is ahead.  Of course you can?t play angry birds up there, and instead of
> tweeting to your fellow astronauts, you might need to just talk to them
> using your vocal cords, so in that sense they are behind.****
>
> ** **
>
> spike****
>
> ** **
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>


-- 

Sandra K. Arjona, M.L.S.
Journal Manager
Academic Emergency Medicine
sandrak.arjona at gmail.com
Tel:  412 772 1190
Fax:  412 772 1190



-- 
Sandra K. Arjona, M.L.S.
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From pharos at gmail.com  Mon Nov 19 18:09:26 2012
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2012 18:09:26 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Insulin pump (artificial pancreas)
Message-ID: <CAL_armiyPjxsiT3sWWzabu3hwJhQZhxd7t=71XDWhwa00pPW3g@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 5:07 PM, Brent Allsop wrote:
> What troubles me, is why is medical technology even worse?  For example, I
> have an insulin pump (artificial pancreas) because I?m a type 1 diabetic.
> Since this technology is far more than 10 years old, it is basically killing
> me, compared to what it could be.  Instead of having an android app, that
> displays the information on my nice new 720P resolution color smart phone,
> it attempts to display it on a 64 x 128 pixel black and white LCD display,
> that is basically technology from the 80s.  And this is only one of a
> gazillion things that are killing me, compared to what it could be.
>
> The other thing is, the crude monitoring system isn?t connected to the
> insulin delivery system ? i.e. no automated control.  So I have to do
> everything myself ? including making mistakes ? that could kill me.  The
> manufactures of the device could clearly lesson this risk, but of course,
> such would expose them to risk of being sued ? so they completely avoid
> anything like that.  So, their basically happy to let me make mistakes and
> destroy my life, as long as they aren?t providing anything that would expose
> them to any risk.
>
>

What you are requesting is a full Artificial Pancreas. This is a
worldwide project and trials are now underway. You should be able to
get one within a few years.
<http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_pancreas>

In the meantime, it sounds as though you should be able to get a more
up-to-date insulin pump.
JDRF says, Quote:
The latest-model pumps have built-in dosage calculators that manage
the complex diabetes math that you previously had to do yourself. This
feature will enable you to program different basal insulin delivery
rates for different times of the day, depending on changing needs. You
can reduce the basal rate before exercise or change the rate at night
to help prevent overnight lows.

These pumps can calculate how much insulin is still working from the
previous bolus dose. Some manufacturers include such additional smart
features as programmable reminders and alerts, information download
capabilities that allow you to save information to a computer to keep
a record, a carbohydrate database (containing carbohydrate amounts for
many foods to eliminate guesswork), variety in styles of infusion
sets, and child lockout features.

To learn more about what pumps can do, check out the websites of pump
manufacturers:
LINKS:
    http://www.animascorp.com/
    http://www.delteccozmo.com/
    http://www.disetronic-usa.com/
    http://www.minimed.com/
    http://www.myomnipod.com/
------------

BillK



From atymes at gmail.com  Mon Nov 19 17:55:44 2012
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2012 09:55:44 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Why space tech isn't cutting edge
In-Reply-To: <011a01cdc67a$6e201b00$4a605100$@att.net>
References: <CAL_armhBmUOxH8N24yc6G8Wv75Ld9yzwVr2qO3hprpmKZ=LiBg@mail.gmail.com>
 <00c101cdc661$00783e20$0168ba60$@att.net>
 <1353342072.81852.YahooMailNeo@web126201.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAL_armgm+HL3tbkOFsNi4=qB7Q+L6DVqZqG_r8Oy1uDhjRtbkQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <011a01cdc67a$6e201b00$4a605100$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNSMDKjvE8_anu2KR0O5_S8N13jbiQ6xPYTSg7mmveAA9A@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 9:22 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> Any shielding that is light
> enough to be carried into space creates a shower of secondary particles when
> hit with a sufficiently energetic cosmic ray

Composite armor, just like tanks use.  Outer layer converts massive
attacks into a spray of smaller attacks.  Inner layer optimized to
stop a bunch of smaller attacks.

> Recall also that it
> would need to be shielded from all directions, and that to stop a cosmic
> particle would take a huge block of lead.

Not that huge, surely?  Considering how tiny CPUs are, and thus
the tiny volume that would need protection.

> In space applications, the motto is if it works, don't mess with it.  The
> humble i486 works, if you de-clock it from its blazing 40 mega-Hertz and are
> old enough to know the definition of the archeo-prefix mega .  If you need
> any heavy-duty space-calculations, the way to go is to send the data to the
> deck, have the super-computers calculate it and send it back up.

So how, eventually, do we get sentient AIs - that run on computer
chips, or some other computing hardware - floating around in space
and able to munch asteroids (at first, then eventually planets) to
make more hardware for themselves?


From charlie.stross at gmail.com  Mon Nov 19 19:24:17 2012
From: charlie.stross at gmail.com (Charlie Stross)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2012 19:24:17 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Why space tech isn't cutting edge
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNSMDKjvE8_anu2KR0O5_S8N13jbiQ6xPYTSg7mmveAA9A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armhBmUOxH8N24yc6G8Wv75Ld9yzwVr2qO3hprpmKZ=LiBg@mail.gmail.com>
 <00c101cdc661$00783e20$0168ba60$@att.net>
 <1353342072.81852.YahooMailNeo@web126201.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAL_armgm+HL3tbkOFsNi4=qB7Q+L6DVqZqG_r8Oy1uDhjRtbkQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <011a01cdc67a$6e201b00$4a605100$@att.net>
 <CALAdGNSMDKjvE8_anu2KR0O5_S8N13jbiQ6xPYTSg7mmveAA9A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <398C0326-183A-4321-9F73-C60D83D24CA8@gmail.com>


On 19 Nov 2012, at 17:55, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 9:22 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>> Any shielding that is light
>> enough to be carried into space creates a shower of secondary particles when
>> hit with a sufficiently energetic cosmic ray
> 
> Composite armor, just like tanks use.  Outer layer converts massive
> attacks into a spray of smaller attacks.  Inner layer optimized to
> stop a bunch of smaller attacks.

Ultra-high energy cosmic rays have energies up to 5 x 10^19 eV. (There's a high cut-off due to interactions with the cosmic microwave background.) 

That's about 8 joules. In a single particle! (The highest ever observed energy was 3 x 10^20 eV, or about the same kE as a baseball traveling at 100km/h.)

To put it in perspective, these particles can drill through multiple kilometres of air, and multiple (possibly double-digit) metres of water. And lead shielding isn't going to make things better: it's got a higher capture cross-section, but if you whack the energy of a baseball into a single lead nucleus it is going to explode violently, producing a whole mess of muons and other decay products. If anything, the secondary radiation produced by blocking it may be worse than the particle itself.



-- Charlie


From gsantostasi at gmail.com  Mon Nov 19 19:06:24 2012
From: gsantostasi at gmail.com (Giovanni Santostasi)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2012 13:06:24 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Why space tech isn't cutting edge
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNSMDKjvE8_anu2KR0O5_S8N13jbiQ6xPYTSg7mmveAA9A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armhBmUOxH8N24yc6G8Wv75Ld9yzwVr2qO3hprpmKZ=LiBg@mail.gmail.com>
 <00c101cdc661$00783e20$0168ba60$@att.net>
 <1353342072.81852.YahooMailNeo@web126201.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAL_armgm+HL3tbkOFsNi4=qB7Q+L6DVqZqG_r8Oy1uDhjRtbkQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <011a01cdc67a$6e201b00$4a605100$@att.net>
 <CALAdGNSMDKjvE8_anu2KR0O5_S8N13jbiQ6xPYTSg7mmveAA9A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL+RtPf4rfcn6=zoUVycb5TF=4t73FMaoHzo6S5D-3vsg7KcHQ@mail.gmail.com>

Did actually people do tests with modern chips in space? Or just one earth
using very high energy sources?
None of the astronauts bring with them their ipads?
Or is it that the use of the 486 is based on making sure the vital system
are overbuild for safety?

When we sent payloads with my students to the stratosphere using balloons,
we found out quickly that is not a good idea to send hard drives with disks
that use air as cuscion (for obvious reasons) that were not obvious to us
when we tried the first time.

But we had no problems with solid state drives. But we were in the
stratosphere with still some protection from the atmosphere. How powerful
of a cosmic ray you need to get before failure? Is it permanent? What is
the probability of failure?

Giovanni

On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 11:55 AM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 9:22 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> > Any shielding that is light
> > enough to be carried into space creates a shower of secondary particles
> when
> > hit with a sufficiently energetic cosmic ray
>
> Composite armor, just like tanks use.  Outer layer converts massive
> attacks into a spray of smaller attacks.  Inner layer optimized to
> stop a bunch of smaller attacks.
>
> > Recall also that it
> > would need to be shielded from all directions, and that to stop a cosmic
> > particle would take a huge block of lead.
>
> Not that huge, surely?  Considering how tiny CPUs are, and thus
> the tiny volume that would need protection.
>
> > In space applications, the motto is if it works, don't mess with it.  The
> > humble i486 works, if you de-clock it from its blazing 40 mega-Hertz and
> are
> > old enough to know the definition of the archeo-prefix mega .  If you
> need
> > any heavy-duty space-calculations, the way to go is to send the data to
> the
> > deck, have the super-computers calculate it and send it back up.
>
> So how, eventually, do we get sentient AIs - that run on computer
> chips, or some other computing hardware - floating around in space
> and able to munch asteroids (at first, then eventually planets) to
> make more hardware for themselves?
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike66 at att.net  Mon Nov 19 19:24:17 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2012 11:24:17 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Why space tech isn't cutting edge
In-Reply-To: <CAK7-onuWv9TYnkePUd9SzQzk+PzPg7tSnJiG8jxjdVrFV-ECwg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armhBmUOxH8N24yc6G8Wv75Ld9yzwVr2qO3hprpmKZ=LiBg@mail.gmail.com>
 <00c101cdc661$00783e20$0168ba60$@att.net>
 <1353342072.81852.YahooMailNeo@web126201.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAK7-onuWv9TYnkePUd9SzQzk+PzPg7tSnJiG8jxjdVrFV-ECwg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <014a01cdc68b$78501380$68f03a80$@att.net>

 

 

From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Brent Allsop
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 9:08 AM
To: Dan; ExI chat list
Subject: Re: [ExI] Why space tech isn't cutting edge

 

 >.What troubles me, is why is medical technology even worse?  For example,
I have an insulin pump (artificial pancreas) because I'm a type 1 diabetic.
So, their basically happy to let me make mistakes and destroy my life, as
long as they aren't providing anything that would expose them to any risk.
Brent Allsop

Clearly, we need some work on that legal system.  We should have a subset of
insulin pumps in which the users are declared experimental pilots, who
assume the risks themselves, indemnifying the manufacturer, who will do the
best they can to save your life.

 

Our liability system is holding us back in so many ways Brent, not only in
your specific case.  If cars were just being invented today rather than in
the late 1800s, they would be functionally illegal.

 

spike

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From spike66 at att.net  Mon Nov 19 19:30:09 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2012 11:30:09 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Why space tech isn't cutting edge
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNQEHJQECpwMPYh+sdT8=Q31qMaZT+aOwxDRY0hos066rw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armhBmUOxH8N24yc6G8Wv75Ld9yzwVr2qO3hprpmKZ=LiBg@mail.gmail.com>
 <00c101cdc661$00783e20$0168ba60$@att.net>
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 <CALAdGNQEHJQECpwMPYh+sdT8=Q31qMaZT+aOwxDRY0hos066rw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <014f01cdc68c$49b3be90$dd1b3bb0$@att.net>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 9:50 AM
To: ExI chat list
Subject: Re: [ExI] Why space tech isn't cutting edge

On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 9:02 AM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:
>>... So the chips have to be specially hardened and protected by extra
years of development.

>...What about making a coating that would reduce or deflect the
chip-damaging radiation, developing that only once, and then reusing it for
each subsequent generation of chips?
_______________________________________________

Adrian, do invent such a coating, please sir.  If you are successful, you
will be followed everywhere by a couple dozen aerospace engineers,
collecting pebbles from the path upon which you have tread.  I will beat
them to it: I will go in front of you, sweeping clean your path like those
guys in the Olympic curling competition sweeping the ice, making sure that
your way is perfectly clean so you don't accidentally step on anything and
injure your brilliant foot.  Be aware however that the path to such a
coating in littered with the corpses of those who have gone before and
failed.

spike



From spike66 at att.net  Mon Nov 19 19:46:11 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2012 11:46:11 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Why space tech isn't cutting edge
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNSMDKjvE8_anu2KR0O5_S8N13jbiQ6xPYTSg7mmveAA9A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armhBmUOxH8N24yc6G8Wv75Ld9yzwVr2qO3hprpmKZ=LiBg@mail.gmail.com>
 <00c101cdc661$00783e20$0168ba60$@att.net>
 <1353342072.81852.YahooMailNeo@web126201.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAL_armgm+HL3tbkOFsNi4=qB7Q+L6DVqZqG_r8Oy1uDhjRtbkQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <011a01cdc67a$6e201b00$4a605100$@att.net>
 <CALAdGNSMDKjvE8_anu2KR0O5_S8N13jbiQ6xPYTSg7mmveAA9A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <015501cdc68e$873ba0a0$95b2e1e0$@att.net>


>... On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes
Subject: Re: [ExI] Why space tech isn't cutting edge

On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 9:22 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>>... Any shielding that is light enough to be carried into space creates a
shower of secondary particles when hit with a sufficiently energetic cosmic
ray...

>...Composite armor, just like tanks use.  Outer layer converts massive
attacks into a spray of smaller attacks.  Inner layer optimized to stop a
bunch of smaller attacks...

Ja most current research in that field goes that way.  The problem is that
cosmic rays have such high energy we are lucky we have both an atmosphere
and a magnetic field around us.  A long time ago I did a calculation to
estimate the lead shielding equivalent of an atmosphere, and as I vaguely
recall it was substantial, on the order of a couple of feet of lead.  I
don't recall the answer, but I do recall concluding it is not a practical
means of protecting electronics.

>>... Recall also that it would need to be shielded from all directions, and
that to stop a 
> cosmic particle would take a huge block of lead.

>...Not that huge, surely?  Considering how tiny CPUs are, and thus the tiny
volume that would need protection...

You hit upon a promising approach: figure out a way to do massive
redundancy, so that the RISEU errors can be outvoted by several parallel
processors.  This is done now to some extent.  We have a control system that
uses three parallel processors.  The output is not used unless two
processors agree on an answer.


> ...  If you need any heavy-duty space-calculations, 
> the way to go is to send the data to the deck, have the super-computers
calculate it and send it back up.

>...So how, eventually, do we get sentient AIs - that run on computer chips,
or some other computing hardware - floating around in space and able to
munch asteroids (at first, then eventually planets) to make more hardware
for themselves?
_______________________________________________

Good question.  I am not convinced we will never find a way to make these
smaller processors work in an EM noisy environment.  We will solve that
eventually methinks.

We already have some processors that will work in space, just not the really
high powered ones.  All is not lost however, for we have the option of
boring a hole into an asteroid or planet surface and having the deep
thinking go on down there, using a super-small featured modern processor
which does not turn on until the tunnel is finished, so that it has a couple
meters of rock shielding everywhere.  Then the surface robots would have the
slower more robust processors getting instructions from the guy down in the
hole.




From msd001 at gmail.com  Mon Nov 19 20:29:01 2012
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2012 15:29:01 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Why space tech isn't cutting edge
In-Reply-To: <014f01cdc68c$49b3be90$dd1b3bb0$@att.net>
References: <CAL_armhBmUOxH8N24yc6G8Wv75Ld9yzwVr2qO3hprpmKZ=LiBg@mail.gmail.com>
 <00c101cdc661$00783e20$0168ba60$@att.net>
 <1353342072.81852.YahooMailNeo@web126201.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAL_armgm+HL3tbkOFsNi4=qB7Q+L6DVqZqG_r8Oy1uDhjRtbkQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQEHJQECpwMPYh+sdT8=Q31qMaZT+aOwxDRY0hos066rw@mail.gmail.com>
 <014f01cdc68c$49b3be90$dd1b3bb0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAOJFdbJ_Mpf_Nu10x18HVJgCd4efi1xXnDVJYZB5em-V8OWBQw@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 2:30 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> Adrian, do invent such a coating, please sir.  If you are successful, you
> will be followed everywhere by a couple dozen aerospace engineers,
> collecting pebbles from the path upon which you have tread.  I will beat
> them to it: I will go in front of you, sweeping clean your path like those
> guys in the Olympic curling competition sweeping the ice, making sure that
> your way is perfectly clean so you don't accidentally step on anything and
> injure your brilliant foot.  Be aware however that the path to such a
> coating in littered with the corpses of those who have gone before and
> failed.

Are you available for sweeping the corpses aside?  I'd imagine they
would also greatly impede progress.


From spike66 at att.net  Mon Nov 19 20:29:58 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2012 12:29:58 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Why space tech isn't cutting edge
In-Reply-To: <CAL+RtPf4rfcn6=zoUVycb5TF=4t73FMaoHzo6S5D-3vsg7KcHQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armhBmUOxH8N24yc6G8Wv75Ld9yzwVr2qO3hprpmKZ=LiBg@mail.gmail.com>
 <00c101cdc661$00783e20$0168ba60$@att.net>
 <1353342072.81852.YahooMailNeo@web126201.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAL_armgm+HL3tbkOFsNi4=qB7Q+L6DVqZqG_r8Oy1uDhjRtbkQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <011a01cdc67a$6e201b00$4a605100$@att.net>
 <CALAdGNSMDKjvE8_anu2KR0O5_S8N13jbiQ6xPYTSg7mmveAA9A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL+RtPf4rfcn6=zoUVycb5TF=4t73FMaoHzo6S5D-3vsg7KcHQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <016e01cdc694$a568ca20$f03a5e60$@att.net>

 

 

From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Giovanni
Santostasi
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 11:06 AM
To: ExI chat list
Subject: Re: [ExI] Why space tech isn't cutting edge

 

Did actually people do tests with modern chips in space? Or just one earth
using very high energy sources?

None of the astronauts bring with them their ipads?

Or is it that the use of the 486 is based on making sure the vital system
are overbuild for safety? 

 

When we sent payloads with my students to the stratosphere using balloons,
we found out quickly that is not a good idea to send hard drives with disks
that use air as cuscion (for obvious reasons) that were not obvious to us
when we tried the first time. 

 

But we had no problems with solid state drives. But we were in the
stratosphere with still some protection from the atmosphere. How powerful of
a cosmic ray you need to get before failure? Is it permanent? What is the
probability of failure? 

 

Giovanni

 

 

Giovanni, many questions here, short answer: modern electronics will work to
some extent in space.  The problem is that you cannot operate those
electronics in such a way that your mission hangs on them working reliably.
Usually single event upsets can be reset with something analogous to a
reboot: just interrupt power and let it come back up using firmware.
Problem is, modern electronics like laptop computers don't rely much on
firmware.  Laptop computers have been taken into space, and they work, but
cannot be used for control algorithms.

 

spike

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From atymes at gmail.com  Mon Nov 19 20:35:18 2012
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2012 12:35:18 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Why space tech isn't cutting edge
In-Reply-To: <015501cdc68e$873ba0a0$95b2e1e0$@att.net>
References: <CAL_armhBmUOxH8N24yc6G8Wv75Ld9yzwVr2qO3hprpmKZ=LiBg@mail.gmail.com>
 <00c101cdc661$00783e20$0168ba60$@att.net>
 <1353342072.81852.YahooMailNeo@web126201.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAL_armgm+HL3tbkOFsNi4=qB7Q+L6DVqZqG_r8Oy1uDhjRtbkQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <011a01cdc67a$6e201b00$4a605100$@att.net>
 <CALAdGNSMDKjvE8_anu2KR0O5_S8N13jbiQ6xPYTSg7mmveAA9A@mail.gmail.com>
 <015501cdc68e$873ba0a0$95b2e1e0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNQp+rgjaRCVQ4PQwDVOE9--6jViMX3hk8+Ue+tjRy=cew@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 11:30 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> Adrian, do invent such a coating, please sir.

All I can do right now is research and bounce ideas around.
That said...

>>...Composite armor, just like tanks use.  Outer layer converts massive
> attacks into a spray of smaller attacks.  Inner layer optimized to stop a
> bunch of smaller attacks...
>
> Ja most current research in that field goes that way.  The problem is that
> cosmic rays have such high energy we are lucky we have both an atmosphere
> and a magnetic field around us.  A long time ago I did a calculation to
> estimate the lead shielding equivalent of an atmosphere, and as I vaguely
> recall it was substantial, on the order of a couple of feet of lead.  I
> don't recall the answer, but I do recall concluding it is not a practical
> means of protecting electronics.

Only a couple feet, for single-material (lead)?  That
sounds like it could be optimized down to practicality.

Would, say, tungsten work better than lead for an
external coating?  (Or osmium, but that might get
expensive.)  Since I gather a high density is needed
for initial capture, and thus is the most desirable
property for the outermost coating.

What properties are best for deflecting a massive
number of secondaries, that might not be necessary
(or even desired) in the outermost coating?

>>...Not that huge, surely?  Considering how tiny CPUs are, and thus the tiny
> volume that would need protection...
>
> You hit upon a promising approach: figure out a way to do massive
> redundancy, so that the RISEU errors can be outvoted by several parallel
> processors.  This is done now to some extent.  We have a control system that
> uses three parallel processors.  The output is not used unless two
> processors agree on an answer.

I note that the trend in modern CPUs is multi-core,
more than higher CPU clock rate.  Hexa-core
processors are commercially available; that can
emulate dual-core with 2-out-of-3 processing.  Or
alternately, do quad-core, reserving 1 of the cores
for backup if a core gives consistently bad results
(and if that's necessary, it flags a warning to the
humans that one core is judged dead).


From atymes at gmail.com  Mon Nov 19 20:37:22 2012
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2012 12:37:22 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Why space tech isn't cutting edge
In-Reply-To: <CAOJFdbJ_Mpf_Nu10x18HVJgCd4efi1xXnDVJYZB5em-V8OWBQw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armhBmUOxH8N24yc6G8Wv75Ld9yzwVr2qO3hprpmKZ=LiBg@mail.gmail.com>
 <00c101cdc661$00783e20$0168ba60$@att.net>
 <1353342072.81852.YahooMailNeo@web126201.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAL_armgm+HL3tbkOFsNi4=qB7Q+L6DVqZqG_r8Oy1uDhjRtbkQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQEHJQECpwMPYh+sdT8=Q31qMaZT+aOwxDRY0hos066rw@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CALAdGNQ84VXqA=8mfiQneNfq=E7tJH6g3xu7RGo40vUj0DFtqw@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 12:29 PM, Mike Dougherty <msd001 at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 2:30 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>> Be aware however that the path to such a
>> coating in littered with the corpses of those who have gone before and
>> failed.
>
> Are you available for sweeping the corpses aside?  I'd imagine they
> would also greatly impede progress.

On the contrary.  When inventing something like this, it can be quite
helpful to look at past efforts and understand why they failed: they can
often identify non-obvious problems, at the cost of their research
funding.  Too bad, so sad for them, but at least subsequent efforts can
learn from their fails.


From jrd1415 at gmail.com  Mon Nov 19 19:46:56 2012
From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2012 12:46:56 -0700
Subject: [ExI] question re p2p wireless
Message-ID: <CAHUTwkNb=wkjkhUsZL4TeEC1GkWx5PmCSvNfFx+Y3pp-W0VAsw@mail.gmail.com>

I've got a laptop with built in wireless..  You have a laptop with built in
wireless.  We're both running windows.  Mine is XP.  We're in the same
room.  How do I get my laptop to communicate privately and directly with
yours -- no internet mediation, just our two laptops -- using our built in
wireless?

Best, Jeff Davis

          "Everything's hard till you know how to do it."
                                     Ray Charles
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From nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk  Mon Nov 19 20:38:23 2012
From: nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk (Tom Nowell)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2012 20:38:23 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [ExI] Spinal damage repaired in dogs - and this is with "real life"
	injuries.
Message-ID: <1353357503.11275.YahooMailClassic@web132102.mail.ird.yahoo.com>

Top story on BBC news at the moment - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-20365355

Scientists have reversed paralysis in dogs after injecting them with cells grown from the lining of their nose. The pets had all suffered spinal injuries which prevented them from using their back legs. The Cambridge University team is cautiously optimistic the technique could eventually have a role in the treatment of human patients. 

The study is the first to test the transplant in "real-life" injuries rather than laboratory animals.
In the study, funded by the Medical Research Council and published in the neurology journal Brain, the dogs had olfactory ensheathing cells from the lining of their nose removed.

These were grown and expanded for several weeks in the laboratory. Of 34 pet dogs on the proof of concept trial, 23 had the cells 
transplanted into the injury site - the rest were injected with a 
neutral fluid.   

Many of the dogs that received the transplant showed 
considerable improvement and were able to walk on a treadmill with the 
support of a harness.  

None of the control group regained use of its back legs.
The research was a collaboration between the MRC's Regenerative Medicine Centre and Cambridge University's Veterinary School. Professor Robin Franklin, a regeneration biologist at the Wellcome Trust-MRC Stem Cell Institute and report co-author, said: 'Our findings are extremely exciting because they show for the first time that transplanting these types of cell into a severely damaged spinal cord can bring about significant improvement. 

"We're confident that the technique might be able to restore at least
 a small amount of movement in human patients with spinal cord injuries 
but that's a long way from saying they might be able to regain all lost 
function. '

        Prof Franklin said the procedure might be used alongside drug
 treatments to promote nerve fibre regeneration and bioengineering to 
substitute damaged neural networks.

  Partial repair
	      The researchers say the transplanted cells regenerated nerve 
fibres across the damaged region of the spinal cord.  This enabled the 
dogs to regain the use of their back legs and coordinate movement with 
their front limbs.

The new nerve connections did not occur over the long distances required to connect the brain to the spinal cord.  The MRC scientists say in humans this would be vital for spinal injury patients who had lost sexual function and bowel and bladder control.
        Prof Geoffrey Raisman, chair of Neural Regeneration at 
University College London, who discovered olfactory ensheathing cells in
 1985 said: "This is not a cure for spinal cord injury in humans - that 
could still be a long way off.  But this is the most encouraging advance
 for some years and is a significant step on the road towards it."

        He said the clinical benefits were still limited: "This 
procedure has enabled an injured dog to step with its hind legs, but the
 much harder range of higher functions lost in spinal cord injury - hand
 function, bladder function, temperature regulation, for example - are 
yet more complicated and still a long way away."  

        Jasper, a 10-year-old dachshund, is one of the dogs which took part in the trial.His owner May Hay told me: "Before the treatment we used to have to wheel Jasper round on a trolley because his back legs were 
useless. Now he whizzes around the house and garden and is able to keep 
up with the other dogs.  It's wonderful." 



From charlie.stross at gmail.com  Mon Nov 19 19:15:14 2012
From: charlie.stross at gmail.com (Charlie Stross)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2012 19:15:14 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Insulin pump (artificial pancreas)
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armiyPjxsiT3sWWzabu3hwJhQZhxd7t=71XDWhwa00pPW3g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armiyPjxsiT3sWWzabu3hwJhQZhxd7t=71XDWhwa00pPW3g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CCCA788E-5010-4D9B-B41E-350EDA8BD3B1@gmail.com>

Secondary point: you really want a medical device like this to be bulletproof! It's pumping insulin into you -- if something goes wrong it can potentially put you in a coma or kill you. 

I would be very wary of allowing an external interface such as an android app to control (as opposed to monitor) such a device. Given the prevalence of malware already afflicting in-hospital computer controlled appliances, and the risks entailed in software updates to such devices (which is why they tend to be overrun by malware -- they're running old, unpatched OS editions because you can't patch them without having to recertify the entire system as medically safe), why go looking for trouble?

A standard API to allow smartphones to monitor your insulin pump, graph blood glucose levels and flow rates, and so on, would be a good idea. But allowing unsecured external computers to control it? That's just asking for malware that holds you to ransom -- for your life!


-- Charlie

On 19 Nov 2012, at 18:09, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 5:07 PM, Brent Allsop wrote:
>> What troubles me, is why is medical technology even worse?  For example, I
>> have an insulin pump (artificial pancreas) because I?m a type 1 diabetic.
>> Since this technology is far more than 10 years old, it is basically killing
>> me, compared to what it could be.  Instead of having an android app, that
>> displays the information on my nice new 720P resolution color smart phone,
>> it attempts to display it on a 64 x 128 pixel black and white LCD display,
>> that is basically technology from the 80s.  And this is only one of a
>> gazillion things that are killing me, compared to what it could be.
>> 
>> The other thing is, the crude monitoring system isn?t connected to the
>> insulin delivery system ? i.e. no automated control.  So I have to do
>> everything myself ? including making mistakes ? that could kill me.  The
>> manufactures of the device could clearly lesson this risk, but of course,
>> such would expose them to risk of being sued ? so they completely avoid
>> anything like that.  So, their basically happy to let me make mistakes and
>> destroy my life, as long as they aren?t providing anything that would expose
>> them to any risk.
>> 
>> 
> 
> What you are requesting is a full Artificial Pancreas. This is a
> worldwide project and trials are now underway. You should be able to
> get one within a few years.
> <http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_pancreas>
> 
> In the meantime, it sounds as though you should be able to get a more
> up-to-date insulin pump.
> JDRF says, Quote:
> The latest-model pumps have built-in dosage calculators that manage
> the complex diabetes math that you previously had to do yourself. This
> feature will enable you to program different basal insulin delivery
> rates for different times of the day, depending on changing needs. You
> can reduce the basal rate before exercise or change the rate at night
> to help prevent overnight lows.
> 
> These pumps can calculate how much insulin is still working from the
> previous bolus dose. Some manufacturers include such additional smart
> features as programmable reminders and alerts, information download
> capabilities that allow you to save information to a computer to keep
> a record, a carbohydrate database (containing carbohydrate amounts for
> many foods to eliminate guesswork), variety in styles of infusion
> sets, and child lockout features.
> 
> To learn more about what pumps can do, check out the websites of pump
> manufacturers:
> LINKS:
>    http://www.animascorp.com/
>    http://www.delteccozmo.com/
>    http://www.disetronic-usa.com/
>    http://www.minimed.com/
>    http://www.myomnipod.com/
> ------------
> 
> BillK
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat




From gsantostasi at gmail.com  Mon Nov 19 21:01:03 2012
From: gsantostasi at gmail.com (Giovanni Santostasi)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2012 15:01:03 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Why space tech isn't cutting edge
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNQ84VXqA=8mfiQneNfq=E7tJH6g3xu7RGo40vUj0DFtqw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armhBmUOxH8N24yc6G8Wv75Ld9yzwVr2qO3hprpmKZ=LiBg@mail.gmail.com>
 <00c101cdc661$00783e20$0168ba60$@att.net>
 <1353342072.81852.YahooMailNeo@web126201.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAL_armgm+HL3tbkOFsNi4=qB7Q+L6DVqZqG_r8Oy1uDhjRtbkQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQEHJQECpwMPYh+sdT8=Q31qMaZT+aOwxDRY0hos066rw@mail.gmail.com>
 <014f01cdc68c$49b3be90$dd1b3bb0$@att.net>
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 <CALAdGNQ84VXqA=8mfiQneNfq=E7tJH6g3xu7RGo40vUj0DFtqw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL+RtPekWr_Y8mmSxKT8gekX6Rvvn2SE47cQEOAq_fpxW5A8qg@mail.gmail.com>

How the brain does it?
How do we reboot from such high energy events? Is the brain affected by
such high energy events?
Is the brain more stable because of its high parallel architecture?
Giovanni


On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 2:37 PM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 12:29 PM, Mike Dougherty <msd001 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 2:30 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> >> Be aware however that the path to such a
> >> coating in littered with the corpses of those who have gone before and
> >> failed.
> >
> > Are you available for sweeping the corpses aside?  I'd imagine they
> > would also greatly impede progress.
>
> On the contrary.  When inventing something like this, it can be quite
> helpful to look at past efforts and understand why they failed: they can
> often identify non-obvious problems, at the cost of their research
> funding.  Too bad, so sad for them, but at least subsequent efforts can
> learn from their fails.
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike66 at att.net  Mon Nov 19 20:57:21 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2012 12:57:21 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Why space tech isn't cutting edge
In-Reply-To: <CAOJFdbJ_Mpf_Nu10x18HVJgCd4efi1xXnDVJYZB5em-V8OWBQw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armhBmUOxH8N24yc6G8Wv75Ld9yzwVr2qO3hprpmKZ=LiBg@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <017c01cdc698$78b52b00$6a1f8100$@att.net>


>... On Behalf Of Mike Dougherty
Subject: Re: [ExI] Why space tech isn't cutting edge

On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 2:30 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

>>... Adrian, do invent such a coating, please sir...  Be aware however that
the path to such a coating in littered with the corpses of those 
> who have gone before and failed.

>...Are you available for sweeping the corpses aside?  I'd imagine they
would also greatly impede progress.
_______________________________________________

No, for I am one of those corpses.  I have the failed processors tested at
the Berkeley cyclotron to show for it.

Sometimes great things are accomplished by those who do not know what cannot
be done.  The rest of the time, they learn what cannot be done and why,
often at great expense.

spike



From atymes at gmail.com  Mon Nov 19 21:30:34 2012
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2012 13:30:34 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Why space tech isn't cutting edge
In-Reply-To: <CAL+RtPekWr_Y8mmSxKT8gekX6Rvvn2SE47cQEOAq_fpxW5A8qg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armhBmUOxH8N24yc6G8Wv75Ld9yzwVr2qO3hprpmKZ=LiBg@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CALAdGNR9-Kq=1b__wRJJ-ACDfm6-2ncn9d0WPw7e5iUyXzd_hw@mail.gmail.com>

Neurons are not as tiny as modern CPU interconnect
wires, therefore single-atom events aren't nearly so
disruptive.  Being highly parallel helps too.

On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 1:01 PM, Giovanni Santostasi
<gsantostasi at gmail.com> wrote:
> How the brain does it?
> How do we reboot from such high energy events? Is the brain affected by such
> high energy events?
> Is the brain more stable because of its high parallel architecture?
> Giovanni
>
>
> On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 2:37 PM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 12:29 PM, Mike Dougherty <msd001 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 2:30 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>> >> Be aware however that the path to such a
>> >> coating in littered with the corpses of those who have gone before and
>> >> failed.
>> >
>> > Are you available for sweeping the corpses aside?  I'd imagine they
>> > would also greatly impede progress.
>>
>> On the contrary.  When inventing something like this, it can be quite
>> helpful to look at past efforts and understand why they failed: they can
>> often identify non-obvious problems, at the cost of their research
>> funding.  Too bad, so sad for them, but at least subsequent efforts can
>> learn from their fails.
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>


From pharos at gmail.com  Mon Nov 19 21:34:43 2012
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2012 21:34:43 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Why space tech isn't cutting edge
In-Reply-To: <017c01cdc698$78b52b00$6a1f8100$@att.net>
References: <CAL_armhBmUOxH8N24yc6G8Wv75Ld9yzwVr2qO3hprpmKZ=LiBg@mail.gmail.com>
 <00c101cdc661$00783e20$0168ba60$@att.net>
 <1353342072.81852.YahooMailNeo@web126201.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAL_armgm+HL3tbkOFsNi4=qB7Q+L6DVqZqG_r8Oy1uDhjRtbkQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQEHJQECpwMPYh+sdT8=Q31qMaZT+aOwxDRY0hos066rw@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAL_armhr-AqQ=mRu=gPXeq6PMNxZue0rGMJ9KfQDgSCFXDkZvA@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 8:57 PM, spike wrote:
> No, for I am one of those corpses.  I have the failed processors tested at
> the Berkeley cyclotron to show for it.
>
> Sometimes great things are accomplished by those who do not know what cannot
> be done.  The rest of the time, they learn what cannot be done and why,
> often at great expense.
>
>

Ah - Thomas Edison.

Results? Why, man, I have gotten lots of results! If I find 10,000
ways something won't work, I haven't failed. I am not discouraged,
because every wrong attempt discarded is often a step forward....

I never did a day's work in my life. It was all fun.


BillK


From pharos at gmail.com  Mon Nov 19 21:17:16 2012
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2012 21:17:16 +0000
Subject: [ExI] question re p2p wireless
In-Reply-To: <CAHUTwkNb=wkjkhUsZL4TeEC1GkWx5PmCSvNfFx+Y3pp-W0VAsw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHUTwkNb=wkjkhUsZL4TeEC1GkWx5PmCSvNfFx+Y3pp-W0VAsw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armh-yTd5=PLuK0hN7HwEE31Y0hN7mS2YnKnowwnAzPWP9A@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 7:46 PM, Jeff Davis wrote:
> I've got a laptop with built in wireless..  You have a laptop with built in
> wireless.  We're both running windows.  Mine is XP.  We're in the same room.
> How do I get my laptop to communicate privately and directly with yours --
> no internet mediation, just our two laptops -- using our built in wireless?
>
>

The normal method would be to use a wireless router in your home. Then
any pc or laptop can join the network if you provide the network
password and if they enable file sharing, communicate.

If you just want a small two station peer to peer link, try
<http://www.ehow.com/how_8428834_create-peer-peer-wifi-network.html>
but linking different OSs can be awkward using this system.


BillK


From anders at aleph.se  Mon Nov 19 23:32:15 2012
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2012 23:32:15 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Life @ Playstation
In-Reply-To: <CAGfkSy3e5PEXUvjxqqs8Fif+nzeEbzt966qyZ=Jm3MSn7ODjAw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPoR7a7TfytDPq0BJsuV3vuh0AMFhzDP5tDDw5fJsG3woRd6QQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1211040351090.1564@tau.ceti.pl>
 <CAPoR7a72WohEYQx2vErC=Cn0yVTSM6Vbs2+==cNxurPHdrePqg@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CA+LBAbSw5xDXJX9q+vJr=VRF7DNSin9ynZf=hhF1dCQuABPzjg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a7Q6QiB8eQftwRWB_p3Q4Pbo=yNbzA=wGkPbuXvnfBOyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+LBAbTJES=AnaFT0XedPVdnbWi5qZsg-zoK-kCAnryr5ncTbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armhT8JjrzYBxhqjZvMZuVOgGuVcF_ry9YjZQG-FjYwadmg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGfkSy2P2bpARNKWvpqwsKS64Jg-BWYAr19PyrtiS0S6TrUZjQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <002b01cdbb6c$c970fe20$5c52fa60$@att.net>
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Message-ID: <50AAC17F.80102@aleph.se>

On 19/11/2012 07:47, ddraig wrote:
> On 6 November 2012 02:46, spike <spike66 at att.net 
> <mailto:spike66 at att.net>> wrote:
>
>     yeah, I've heard this my entire life:  "if you're so smart, why
>     aren't you rich?"   Well, because it's boring, and the sort of
>     people you meet along the way tend to be horrible, that's why.
>
>     Dwayne, eventually I thought of a good retort to that question, If
>     you're so smart, why ain't ya rich:  If YOU'RE so smart, how do
>     you know I ain't rich?
>
>
> Oh, no, my answer has always been: define rich.  I have spent most of 
> my adult life doing exactly what I wanted, every day, without having 
> to worry about food and survival, with the freedom to spend my time 
> however I wish.  This is the end-result of being rich throughout 
> history, as far as I can tell.

Exactly. A bit like the parable about the fisherman and the banker, 
where the banker sketches out how the fisherman can build up his 
business so that he would become independently wealthy and spend his 
time as he wants... fishing and being with his family, which was what he 
is already doing.

I was interviewed by people from 80 Thousand Hours today ( 
http://80000hours.org/ ). This is an organisation that tries to figure 
out how to make one's career have maximum impact; a little 
evidence-based planning before choosing it can make a huge difference. 
The interesting aspect of their thinking is that high-impact careers can 
both be relatively low-money careers where you do something very useful 
(like life extension research, reducing xrisk) and high-money careers 
where you give the money to the right things. The neat thing is that if 
you plan things right, you will find your life to be quite meaningful 
regardless of the amount of money in your wallet at the end of the month.



-- 
Anders Sandberg,
Future of Humanity Institute
Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University

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From anders at aleph.se  Mon Nov 19 23:12:56 2012
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2012 23:12:56 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Why space tech isn't cutting edge
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNR9-Kq=1b__wRJJ-ACDfm6-2ncn9d0WPw7e5iUyXzd_hw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armhBmUOxH8N24yc6G8Wv75Ld9yzwVr2qO3hprpmKZ=LiBg@mail.gmail.com>
 <00c101cdc661$00783e20$0168ba60$@att.net>
 <1353342072.81852.YahooMailNeo@web126201.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAL_armgm+HL3tbkOFsNi4=qB7Q+L6DVqZqG_r8Oy1uDhjRtbkQ@mail.gmail.com>
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 <014f01cdc68c$49b3be90$dd1b3bb0$@att.net>
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 <CALAdGNQ84VXqA=8mfiQneNfq=E7tJH6g3xu7RGo40vUj0DFtqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL+RtPekWr_Y8mmSxKT8gekX6Rvvn2SE47cQEOAq_fpxW5A8qg@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <50AABCF8.7010601@aleph.se>

On 19/11/2012 21:30, Adrian Tymes wrote:
> Neurons are not as tiny as modern CPU interconnect
> wires, therefore single-atom events aren't nearly so
> disruptive.  Being highly parallel helps too.
>
> On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 1:01 PM, Giovanni Santostasi
> <gsantostasi at gmail.com> wrote:
>> How the brain does it?
>> How do we reboot from such high energy events? Is the brain affected by such
>> high energy events?
>> Is the brain more stable because of its high parallel architecture?
>>

Parallelism certainly helps. But the brain is likely full of 
error-correction too, since there is so much neuronal noise: action 
potentials do get lost along the axon, synapses fire a random number of 
vesicles as a response to a signal, ion channels open and close 
randomly, the number of ions and molecules involved in a cellular 
compartment can be down to a few hundred or worse. A cosmic ray ionizing 
something so a cell fires randomly will not be too different from the 
normal noise.

An action potential is around 10^-20 J, and we get around 2 nucleons 
with more than 1.6*10^-10 J energy per square centimeter steradian per 
second ( http://www.int.washington.edu/PHYS554/2011/chapter9_11.pdf ) 
Not certain about absorbption coefficients for such particles in the 
brain, but at least in space there will likely be a few misfirings per 
second due to local bumps.


BTW, I recently came across something *awesome*: Hinton et al.'s 
"Improving neural networks by preventing
co-adaptation of feature detectors" http://arxiv.org/pdf/1207.0580.pdf  
They reduce neural network overfitting *a lot* by randomly omitting 
neurons during training, making a far more robust network. Maybe this is 
a good reason for the brain to occasionally lose signals.


-- 
Anders Sandberg,
Future of Humanity Institute
Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University



From anders at aleph.se  Mon Nov 19 23:20:58 2012
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2012 23:20:58 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Why space tech isn't cutting edge
In-Reply-To: <014a01cdc68b$78501380$68f03a80$@att.net>
References: <CAL_armhBmUOxH8N24yc6G8Wv75Ld9yzwVr2qO3hprpmKZ=LiBg@mail.gmail.com>
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 <014a01cdc68b$78501380$68f03a80$@att.net>
Message-ID: <50AABEDA.8070204@aleph.se>

> >...What troubles me, is why is medical technology even worse?  For 
> example, I have an insulin pump (artificial pancreas) because I'm a 
> type 1 diabetic...  So, their basically happy to let me make mistakes 
> and destroy my life, as long as they aren't providing anything that 
> would expose them to any risk... Brent Allsop
>
Medical technology as a field has rarely cared about patient desires, 
since patients are not their customers - health care professionals and 
instutitons are. And their mis-handling of security of implants show 
that they are pretty unaware of modern software and security thinking: 
they have not needed to keep up, since most of the functionality is 
pretty simple (it is the delivery that is nontrivial).


On 19/11/2012 19:24, spike wrote:
>
> Our liability system is holding us back in so many ways Brent, not 
> only in your specific case.  If cars were just being invented today 
> rather than in the late 1800s, they would be functionally illegal.
>

It goes both ways. Bruce Schneier has argued that if we held software 
makers liable for what their software did, we would have far more secure 
and safe software. Yes, we would likely have missed out on innovation, 
but we would not be in the house-of-cards mess we are in right now.

-- 
Anders Sandberg,
Future of Humanity Institute
Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University

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From msd001 at gmail.com  Tue Nov 20 00:52:50 2012
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2012 19:52:50 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Why space tech isn't cutting edge
In-Reply-To: <CAL+RtPekWr_Y8mmSxKT8gekX6Rvvn2SE47cQEOAq_fpxW5A8qg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armhBmUOxH8N24yc6G8Wv75Ld9yzwVr2qO3hprpmKZ=LiBg@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAOJFdbKkx_oF0b8ELcVf3zEGLquEMXu8JKsn0x6mp2EtSgjo=g@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 4:01 PM, Giovanni Santostasi
<gsantostasi at gmail.com> wrote:
> How the brain does it?
> How do we reboot from such high energy events? Is the brain affected by such
> high energy events?
> Is the brain more stable because of its high parallel architecture?

Brains are stable in the sense that they have a tendency towards an
equilibrium such as a bad habit, but unstable in the same sense that
walking is a carefully-controlled forward falling.

If we had spaceship control systems hooked up to either a single brain
or a dozen brains in committee, which one of those ships would you
rather use to escape the Earth?


From msd001 at gmail.com  Tue Nov 20 00:46:47 2012
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2012 19:46:47 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Why space tech isn't cutting edge
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNQ84VXqA=8mfiQneNfq=E7tJH6g3xu7RGo40vUj0DFtqw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armhBmUOxH8N24yc6G8Wv75Ld9yzwVr2qO3hprpmKZ=LiBg@mail.gmail.com>
 <00c101cdc661$00783e20$0168ba60$@att.net>
 <1353342072.81852.YahooMailNeo@web126201.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAL_armgm+HL3tbkOFsNi4=qB7Q+L6DVqZqG_r8Oy1uDhjRtbkQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQEHJQECpwMPYh+sdT8=Q31qMaZT+aOwxDRY0hos066rw@mail.gmail.com>
 <014f01cdc68c$49b3be90$dd1b3bb0$@att.net>
 <CAOJFdbJ_Mpf_Nu10x18HVJgCd4efi1xXnDVJYZB5em-V8OWBQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQ84VXqA=8mfiQneNfq=E7tJH6g3xu7RGo40vUj0DFtqw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOJFdbJOsCXVh3dw1wnMFT7ha4+E52zFhPXOmH74R7bETnC=9Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 3:37 PM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 12:29 PM, Mike Dougherty <msd001 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 2:30 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>>> Be aware however that the path to such a
>>> coating in littered with the corpses of those who have gone before and
>>> failed.
>>
>> Are you available for sweeping the corpses aside?  I'd imagine they
>> would also greatly impede progress.
>
> On the contrary.  When inventing something like this, it can be quite
> helpful to look at past efforts and understand why they failed: they can
> often identify non-obvious problems, at the cost of their research
> funding.  Too bad, so sad for them, but at least subsequent efforts can
> learn from their fails.

I was going for the obvious physical impediment of corpses, but
yeah... off to the side of a path might be helpful the way touring a
museum would be helpful.

Identifying non-obvious problem reminds me of the problem of where to
put additional armor plating on fighter planes.  After identifying the
bullet hole patterns on several returning survivors, the answer was to
put plating where there were no holes - because those that took damage
in those areas did not return to participate in the analysis.


From patrickkmclaren at gmail.com  Mon Nov 19 23:42:25 2012
From: patrickkmclaren at gmail.com (Patrick McLaren)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2012 18:42:25 -0500
Subject: [ExI] question re p2p wireless
In-Reply-To: <CAHUTwkNb=wkjkhUsZL4TeEC1GkWx5PmCSvNfFx+Y3pp-W0VAsw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHUTwkNb=wkjkhUsZL4TeEC1GkWx5PmCSvNfFx+Y3pp-W0VAsw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAAeGuv8v1wCxd+WVM7ryDfrScF8MzMwaKMZefs9a8aMu3zeuPg@mail.gmail.com>

What you're after is Ad Hoc networking. It was available in XP AFAIK.

It should work without any extra infrastructure. If you've both
enabled "sharing" then you'll be able to access each other's public
folders, you might also have to set your workgroups to be the same.

On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 2:46 PM, Jeff Davis <jrd1415 at gmail.com> wrote:
> I've got a laptop with built in wireless..  You have a laptop with built in
> wireless.  We're both running windows.  Mine is XP.  We're in the same room.
> How do I get my laptop to communicate privately and directly with yours --
> no internet mediation, just our two laptops -- using our built in wireless?
>
> Best, Jeff Davis
>
>           "Everything's hard till you know how to do it."
>                                      Ray Charles
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>


From sjv2006 at gmail.com  Tue Nov 20 01:23:59 2012
From: sjv2006 at gmail.com (Stephen Van Sickle)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2012 18:23:59 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Why space tech isn't cutting edge
In-Reply-To: <016e01cdc694$a568ca20$f03a5e60$@att.net>
References: <CAL_armhBmUOxH8N24yc6G8Wv75Ld9yzwVr2qO3hprpmKZ=LiBg@mail.gmail.com>
 <00c101cdc661$00783e20$0168ba60$@att.net>
 <1353342072.81852.YahooMailNeo@web126201.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAL_armgm+HL3tbkOFsNi4=qB7Q+L6DVqZqG_r8Oy1uDhjRtbkQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <011a01cdc67a$6e201b00$4a605100$@att.net>
 <CALAdGNSMDKjvE8_anu2KR0O5_S8N13jbiQ6xPYTSg7mmveAA9A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL+RtPf4rfcn6=zoUVycb5TF=4t73FMaoHzo6S5D-3vsg7KcHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <016e01cdc694$a568ca20$f03a5e60$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CADYziYCmjsdfAUbi88ay0JCYGYvSP7oJswhP-g74-yEph1RoiA@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 1:29 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:


> Giovanni, many questions here, short answer: modern electronics will work
to
> some extent in space.  The problem is that you cannot operate those
> electronics in such a way that your mission hangs on them working
reliably.

A very interesting interview covering SpaceX's approach to these issues:

http://www.aviationweek.com/Blogs.aspx?plckBlogId=Blog:04ce340e-4b63-4d23-9695-d49ab661f385&plckPostId=Blog%3A04ce340e-4b63-4d23-9695-d49ab661f385Post%3Aa8b87703-93f9-4cdf-885f-9429605e14df
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From brent.allsop at canonizer.com  Tue Nov 20 02:15:58 2012
From: brent.allsop at canonizer.com (Brent Allsop)
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2012 19:15:58 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Insulin pump (artificial pancreas)
In-Reply-To: <CCCA788E-5010-4D9B-B41E-350EDA8BD3B1@gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armiyPjxsiT3sWWzabu3hwJhQZhxd7t=71XDWhwa00pPW3g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CCCA788E-5010-4D9B-B41E-350EDA8BD3B1@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <50AAE7DE.4090308@canonizer.com>



Hi Folks,

I wrote my original post targeting people completely ignorant about 
pumps and diabetes.  So it's great to have at least some people more 
knowledgeable on the subject here, and take this conversation up a 
level.  I'm familiar with most of this, and do have the latest real time 
glucose monitoring system (if you can really call it that).  It is the 
monitoring that is very expensive and still highly unreliable, when done 
in real time, and that is the real problem why we don't have a real 
artificial pancreas yet.

BillK mentioned: "I should be able to get one in a few years".

Yea, tell me about it.  When I was first diagnosed with this, back in 
1982, that's what I heard back then:  "They'll have a cure or artificial 
pancreas in a few years".  And I've constantly heard this non stop from 
everyone since then.

I still don't see any evidence that we are anywhere near an affordable, 
accurate, real time glucose monitoring system.

And security was mentioned, as if an android app would be less secure - 
and that is completely wrong.  If you had an android app, at least there 
could be some type of security.  What I have now has zero security.  If 
someone had a radio adapter, which I have, they could easily take the 
entire system over, by sitting behind me in a theater or on a buss, or 
something - and I'd never know.

And it's just the programming of the system that drives me crazy, on 
both the monitoring and the controlling side.  It is completely brain 
dead, as if it was targeted for a 90 year old technophobe that can't 
understand anything.  It makes it impossible to get any of the good 
technical trending information that could make my life many times better 
and more healthy.  They program operations to go off at all the wrong 
times (like 3:00 am, when the sensor expires, when I have a sensor that 
is really working relatively good...) and it just still sucks, and 
again, most of this stuff, you can tell, is because they're trying to 
cover their but, so they won't be sued, to say nothing of simply 
primitive technology.

Brent



On 11/19/2012 12:15 PM, Charlie Stross wrote:
> Secondary point: you really want a medical device like this to be bulletproof! It's pumping insulin into you -- if something goes wrong it can potentially put you in a coma or kill you.
>
> I would be very wary of allowing an external interface such as an android app to control (as opposed to monitor) such a device. Given the prevalence of malware already afflicting in-hospital computer controlled appliances, and the risks entailed in software updates to such devices (which is why they tend to be overrun by malware -- they're running old, unpatched OS editions because you can't patch them without having to recertify the entire system as medically safe), why go looking for trouble?
>
> A standard API to allow smartphones to monitor your insulin pump, graph blood glucose levels and flow rates, and so on, would be a good idea. But allowing unsecured external computers to control it? That's just asking for malware that holds you to ransom -- for your life!
>
>
> -- Charlie
>
> On 19 Nov 2012, at 18:09, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 5:07 PM, Brent Allsop wrote:
>>> What troubles me, is why is medical technology even worse?  For example, I
>>> have an insulin pump (artificial pancreas) because I?m a type 1 diabetic.
>>> Since this technology is far more than 10 years old, it is basically killing
>>> me, compared to what it could be.  Instead of having an android app, that
>>> displays the information on my nice new 720P resolution color smart phone,
>>> it attempts to display it on a 64 x 128 pixel black and white LCD display,
>>> that is basically technology from the 80s.  And this is only one of a
>>> gazillion things that are killing me, compared to what it could be.
>>>
>>> The other thing is, the crude monitoring system isn?t connected to the
>>> insulin delivery system ? i.e. no automated control.  So I have to do
>>> everything myself ? including making mistakes ? that could kill me.  The
>>> manufactures of the device could clearly lesson this risk, but of course,
>>> such would expose them to risk of being sued ? so they completely avoid
>>> anything like that.  So, their basically happy to let me make mistakes and
>>> destroy my life, as long as they aren?t providing anything that would expose
>>> them to any risk.
>>>
>>>
>> What you are requesting is a full Artificial Pancreas. This is a
>> worldwide project and trials are now underway. You should be able to
>> get one within a few years.
>> <http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_pancreas>
>>
>> In the meantime, it sounds as though you should be able to get a more
>> up-to-date insulin pump.
>> JDRF says, Quote:
>> The latest-model pumps have built-in dosage calculators that manage
>> the complex diabetes math that you previously had to do yourself. This
>> feature will enable you to program different basal insulin delivery
>> rates for different times of the day, depending on changing needs. You
>> can reduce the basal rate before exercise or change the rate at night
>> to help prevent overnight lows.
>>
>> These pumps can calculate how much insulin is still working from the
>> previous bolus dose. Some manufacturers include such additional smart
>> features as programmable reminders and alerts, information download
>> capabilities that allow you to save information to a computer to keep
>> a record, a carbohydrate database (containing carbohydrate amounts for
>> many foods to eliminate guesswork), variety in styles of infusion
>> sets, and child lockout features.
>>
>> To learn more about what pumps can do, check out the websites of pump
>> manufacturers:
>> LINKS:
>>     http://www.animascorp.com/
>>     http://www.delteccozmo.com/
>>     http://www.disetronic-usa.com/
>>     http://www.minimed.com/
>>     http://www.myomnipod.com/
>> ------------
>>
>> BillK
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat



From bbenzai at yahoo.com  Tue Nov 20 10:06:49 2012
From: bbenzai at yahoo.com (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2012 02:06:49 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ExI] 80000hours (Was:  Life @ Playstation)
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2084.1353375396.17650.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <1353406009.74031.YahooMailClassic@web114410.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

Anders Sandberg <anders at aleph.se> wrote

> I was interviewed by people from 80 Thousand Hours today (
> http://80000hours.org/ ). This is an organisation that tries to figure
> out how to make one's career have maximum impact

Neat, but one thing was inexplicably missing on the "What kind of job helps the most people?" page:  Teaching!

I'd've thought that was a blindingly obvious one.

Ben Zaiboc



From anders at aleph.se  Tue Nov 20 11:37:39 2012
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2012 11:37:39 +0000
Subject: [ExI] A small step towards brain emulation
Message-ID: <50AB6B83.2060305@aleph.se>

Dharmendra Modha's IBM team have announced a rather impressive brain 
simulation.
http://www.modha.org/blog/SC12/RJ10502.pdf

The good news is that they have simulated a system with 53*10^10 neurons 
(near cortex size) and 1.37*10^14 synapses at a mere 1542 slowdown, 
using an overall network structure borrowed from the macaque brain. It 
also scales well with increasing number of processors. The bad news is 
that the model is a fairly abstract model; not quite chunking all 
neurons in a minicolumn into one, but still using abstracted 
integrate-and-fire neurons. And of course, it does not have any fine 
structure based on any real brain.

The real paper is here, with more technical details: 
http://www.modha.org/blog/SC12/SC2012_Compass.pdf (this was run just on 
the Blue Gene, the press stuff is a later run on Sequoia)

The cores are described here: http://www.modha.org/papers/IJCNN%202012.pdf

OK, we seem to be on track when it comes to computing power for big 
neural networks, and the connectomics people are charging ahead (but 
they need to get onto an exponential track of scan-to-neuron conversion: 
right now algorithms are too slow even for the small scan volumes we 
got). It feels like the ball is now in the computational neuroscientist 
court: we better start working on how to turn imaging data into 
something that can run on something like the Compass.

-- 
Anders Sandberg,
Future of Humanity Institute
Oxford Martin School
Faculty of Philosophy
Oxford University



From anders at aleph.se  Tue Nov 20 11:28:59 2012
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2012 11:28:59 +0000
Subject: [ExI] 80000hours (Was:  Life @ Playstation)
In-Reply-To: <1353406009.74031.YahooMailClassic@web114410.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <1353406009.74031.YahooMailClassic@web114410.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <50AB697B.10400@aleph.se>

On 20/11/2012 10:06, Ben Zaiboc wrote:
> Anders Sandberg <anders at aleph.se> wrote
>
>> I was interviewed by people from 80 Thousand Hours today (
>> http://80000hours.org/ ). This is an organisation that tries to figure
>> out how to make one's career have maximum impact
> Neat, but one thing was inexplicably missing on the "What kind of job helps the most people?" page:  Teaching!
>

Hmm, how do you estimate the benefit here to get to the "obvious" category?

Obviously there are individual differences (they spend quite some time 
on that), but even a good teacher will on average inspire just on the 
order of 10-100 students per year. Even assuming that is always life 
changing for every single student, over a 40 year career that just helps 
400-4000 people. Maybe online teaching can hypothetically give you a few 
orders of magnitude more.

There is an apple and orange problem here of course. It is easiest to 
quantify health improvements: you can count the number of saved lives, 
or number of achieved QALYs. So inventing a vaccine obviously has a big 
effect (I have met some people in the "millions saved" league... wow), 
and just donating in the right way to charity (see Giving What We Can)  
can save ~15,000 lives over a career. This is not the same as improving 
human happiness, where we have less comparison opportunities (inventing 
a new dessert makes us happier, and so does defeating tyrannies - but 
how to compare?). And reducing xrisk or increasing overall human 
rationality and capability are on their own, hard to judge, scales.

Teaching is not unimportant, but unless you are super-inspiring in 
person-to-person interaction you should likely work hard on spreading it 
online or create scalable institutions.

-- 
Anders Sandberg,
Future of Humanity Institute
Oxford Martin School
Faculty of Philosophy
Oxford University



From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Tue Nov 20 16:51:27 2012
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2012 09:51:27 -0700
Subject: [ExI] A small step towards brain emulation
In-Reply-To: <50AB6B83.2060305@aleph.se>
References: <50AB6B83.2060305@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy1D75FKYniK-0GBWC=8Sh0zP=A0AZHWuUDt4M5r5KTJLg@mail.gmail.com>

Anders, now for the billion dollar question...  How many years/decades
until we have a sim with the roughly realistic computational power/make-up
of the human brain?  I get the impression it might be relatively soon.


And how exactly does this tie in with developing true artificial
intelligence?


John

On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 4:37 AM, Anders Sandberg <anders at aleph.se> wrote:

> Dharmendra Modha's IBM team have announced a rather impressive brain
> simulation.
> http://www.modha.org/blog/**SC12/RJ10502.pdf<http://www.modha.org/blog/SC12/RJ10502.pdf>
>
> The good news is that they have simulated a system with 53*10^10 neurons
> (near cortex size) and 1.37*10^14 synapses at a mere 1542 slowdown, using
> an overall network structure borrowed from the macaque brain. It also
> scales well with increasing number of processors. The bad news is that the
> model is a fairly abstract model; not quite chunking all neurons in a
> minicolumn into one, but still using abstracted integrate-and-fire neurons.
> And of course, it does not have any fine structure based on any real brain.
>
> The real paper is here, with more technical details:
> http://www.modha.org/blog/**SC12/SC2012_Compass.pdf<http://www.modha.org/blog/SC12/SC2012_Compass.pdf>(this was run just on the Blue Gene, the press stuff is a later run on
> Sequoia)
>
> The cores are described here: http://www.modha.org/papers/**
> IJCNN%202012.pdf <http://www.modha.org/papers/IJCNN%202012.pdf>
>
> OK, we seem to be on track when it comes to computing power for big neural
> networks, and the connectomics people are charging ahead (but they need to
> get onto an exponential track of scan-to-neuron conversion: right now
> algorithms are too slow even for the small scan volumes we got). It feels
> like the ball is now in the computational neuroscientist court: we better
> start working on how to turn imaging data into something that can run on
> something like the Compass.
>
> --
> Anders Sandberg,
> Future of Humanity Institute
> Oxford Martin School
> Faculty of Philosophy
> Oxford University
>
> ______________________________**_________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/**mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-**chat<http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat>
>
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From dan_ust at yahoo.com  Tue Nov 20 18:04:59 2012
From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2012 10:04:59 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ExI] Why space tech isn't cutting edge
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armgm+HL3tbkOFsNi4=qB7Q+L6DVqZqG_r8Oy1uDhjRtbkQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armhBmUOxH8N24yc6G8Wv75Ld9yzwVr2qO3hprpmKZ=LiBg@mail.gmail.com>
 <00c101cdc661$00783e20$0168ba60$@att.net>
 <1353342072.81852.YahooMailNeo@web126201.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAL_armgm+HL3tbkOFsNi4=qB7Q+L6DVqZqG_r8Oy1uDhjRtbkQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1353434699.96682.YahooMailNeo@web126204.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

On Monday, November 19, 2012 12:02 PM BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:

>On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 4:21 PM, Dan wrote:
>> Why is this news? I thought it was widely known that electronics on space
>> missions is always several years behind what's being done elsewhere.
>
> It is not just several years. It's more like 15 years behind.
> You would expect long duration space missions to be several years
> behind, but that's not the point.

My point was, as some seem to have missed, that this should not be news. It should not, especially, be news amongst subscribers to this list.

I understand why or the reasons offered for chips in space lagging what's available one Earth. I just thought this would be part of the gk [general knowledge] of most techies.

Regards,

Dan



From agrimes at speakeasy.net  Tue Nov 20 16:44:57 2012
From: agrimes at speakeasy.net (Alan Grimes)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2012 11:44:57 -0500
Subject: [ExI] A small step towards brain emulation
In-Reply-To: <50AB6B83.2060305@aleph.se>
References: <50AB6B83.2060305@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <50ABB389.20906@speakeasy.net>

Anders Sandberg wrote:

> OK, we seem to be on track when it comes to computing power for big
> neural networks, and the connectomics people are charging ahead (but
> they need to get onto an exponential track of scan-to-neuron conversion:
> right now algorithms are too slow even for the small scan volumes we
> got). It feels like the ball is now in the computational neuroscientist
> court: we better start working on how to turn imaging data into
> something that can run on something like the Compass.

The imaging data will never be useful for anything beyond a point of 
reference.

Because I'm not an uploader, I couldn't care less whether the neural 
simulation is biologically plausible. I only care whether it is 
equivalent or superior, computationally, to the original. I am only 
interested in obtaining an AI. Therefore I'm concerned about getting the 
best AI money can buy. If it would make the AI more powerful, in some 
way, then I'd prefer it look nothing at all like the brain.
Therefore, I'm far more concerned about the three orders of magnitude 
slowdown issue. (which I've been talking about for years....)

-- 
E T F
N H E
D E D

Powers are not rights.



From anders at aleph.se  Tue Nov 20 20:17:59 2012
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2012 20:17:59 +0000
Subject: [ExI] A small step towards brain emulation
In-Reply-To: <CAGSKFy1D75FKYniK-0GBWC=8Sh0zP=A0AZHWuUDt4M5r5KTJLg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <50AB6B83.2060305@aleph.se>
 <CAGSKFy1D75FKYniK-0GBWC=8Sh0zP=A0AZHWuUDt4M5r5KTJLg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <50ABE577.8020407@aleph.se>

On 20/11/2012 16:51, John Grigg wrote:
> Anders, now for the billion dollar question...  How many years/decades 
> until we have a sim with the roughly realistic computational 
> power/make-up of the human brain?  I get the impression it might 
> be relatively soon.

There is a complication: Modha et al. are running a fairly abstract 
neural model, while most of us uploaders would like to run something 
like the much more biologically realistic Hodgkin-Huxley equations on 
models of branched neurons. That will increase memory by at least 3 
orders of magnitude, and computing power by 4-5 orders of magnitude. 
Now, we do not know what resolution would be necessary to get anything 
to work. It could be that Modhas level is OK, it could be that we need a 
lot of protein chemistry requiring even more computation.

If Moore's law continues at current rates we will get an order of 
magnitude every 4-6 years (it depends a bit on what kind of computer you 
look at). So to get enough for a human if Modha's abstract level is 
enough, we are nearly there - in the WBE roadmap I predicted it for 
2019, and we seem to be well on track to beat it. But if we need the 
electrophysiology, then we need another 25 years (with some distribution 
of 16-36 years) for the first slow uploads. Add another 15 years, and 
they will be realtime (and then faster). So my own guess is that the 
probabilities get serious for decent uploads around 2050, and merely 
working ones in 2037. It is possible to shave off a decade or so by 
using special purpose hardware or paying a lot more, but I would be 
surprised if we saw any human uploads at this resolution before 2030.

I don't think the problem is going to be computer power. Slowdown is 
also a matter of choice: smaller simulations can be faster. Researchers 
choose simulation sizes to be tractable on the institutional timescales 
(coffebreak-, weekend- and mainframe access-timed run lengths): there is 
no benefit for most projects to run them in realtime, especially when 
the name of the game is boasting about having the biggest.


> And how exactly does this tie in with developing true artificial 
> intelligence?

Mostly as a race. If there is no AGI at the time we get brain 
emulations, they will fill the niche. However, it is not implausible 
that the things we learn on the way there might give some useful ideas 
to AGI, like how the cortex *actually* works. In fact, if Modha's type 
of simulation is of the right resolution we might get human-based (but 
not human) neuromorphic AGI in the 2020s. But I am not holding my 
breath: predicting things dependent on 1) software insights to be made 
and 2) scientific insights to be made has a huge variance.


-- 
Anders Sandberg,
Future of Humanity Institute
Oxford Martin School
Faculty of Philosophy
Oxford University



From giulio at gmail.com  Wed Nov 21 07:17:00 2012
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2012 08:17:00 +0100
Subject: [ExI] A small step towards brain emulation
In-Reply-To: <50ABE577.8020407@aleph.se>
References: <50AB6B83.2060305@aleph.se>
 <CAGSKFy1D75FKYniK-0GBWC=8Sh0zP=A0AZHWuUDt4M5r5KTJLg@mail.gmail.com>
 <50ABE577.8020407@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <CAKTCJyezfrtPtZu-H1p6VxZ4RUt1i8Oy2eZwaMywkT31L5fSdQ@mail.gmail.com>

Anders "the probabilities get serious for decent uploads around 2050,
and merely working ones in 2037"

This sounds like sweet music to me, especially because there is a
little possibility that I am still alive in 2050, and a more solid
possibility that I am still alive in 2037.

But my gut feeling is that it will take longer, perhaps much longer.
Perhaps the first experimental uploads around the end of the century.
I hope I am wrong, and I would love to hear solid arguments in support
of Anders' timeline.


From anders at aleph.se  Wed Nov 21 10:31:35 2012
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2012 10:31:35 +0000
Subject: [ExI] A small step towards brain emulation
In-Reply-To: <CAKTCJyezfrtPtZu-H1p6VxZ4RUt1i8Oy2eZwaMywkT31L5fSdQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <50AB6B83.2060305@aleph.se>
 <CAGSKFy1D75FKYniK-0GBWC=8Sh0zP=A0AZHWuUDt4M5r5KTJLg@mail.gmail.com>
 <50ABE577.8020407@aleph.se>
 <CAKTCJyezfrtPtZu-H1p6VxZ4RUt1i8Oy2eZwaMywkT31L5fSdQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <50ACAD87.2000101@aleph.se>

On 21/11/2012 07:17, Giulio Prisco wrote:
> Anders "the probabilities get serious for decent uploads around 2050,
> and merely working ones in 2037"
>
> This sounds like sweet music to me, especially because there is a
> little possibility that I am still alive in 2050, and a more solid
> possibility that I am still alive in 2037.
>
> But my gut feeling is that it will take longer, perhaps much longer.
> Perhaps the first experimental uploads around the end of the century.
> I hope I am wrong, and I would love to hear solid arguments in support
> of Anders' timeline.

I really should publish my full analysis as a tech report, especially 
since Stuart Armstrong praised it at the Singularity Summit. It should 
of course be taken with a mountain of salt. Basically it is a Monte 
Carlo model of different scenarios of Moore's law, the complexity of the 
brain, progress in neuroscience and scanning tech.

It is worth remembering that I get a probability distribution with my 
full model, not a single date: the previous post on this list was a back 
of the envelope sketch based on single numbers. The full distribution 
looks a bit like a lognormal distribution starting to build height in 
the 2030s and having a peak mid-century, with a very very long tail 
stretching into the future.

I'll promise I will work on a report when I get some time after the big 
AGI conference in December.

But, yeah, we should get cryonics contracts and work on other ways of 
life extension. Uploading is not going to be easy.

-- 
Anders Sandberg,
Future of Humanity Institute
Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University



From giulio at gmail.com  Wed Nov 21 11:19:18 2012
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2012 12:19:18 +0100
Subject: [ExI] A small step towards brain emulation
In-Reply-To: <50ACAD87.2000101@aleph.se>
References: <50AB6B83.2060305@aleph.se>
 <CAGSKFy1D75FKYniK-0GBWC=8Sh0zP=A0AZHWuUDt4M5r5KTJLg@mail.gmail.com>
 <50ABE577.8020407@aleph.se>
 <CAKTCJyezfrtPtZu-H1p6VxZ4RUt1i8Oy2eZwaMywkT31L5fSdQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <50ACAD87.2000101@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <CAKTCJyfPrk8aLr=SEovD1sLh+syxB_LayOe-eNs+oZT6vKBU+Q@mail.gmail.com>

I look forward to reading your paper Anders.

I don't think our capacity to run an upload copy is the main problem.
I would be perfectly happy to wait for a couple of hundred years after
the scan, for technology to catch up. The main problem is acquiring
and storing all the relevant information, which of course assumes that
we know what the relevant information is.

A chemically preserved brain (brainpreservation.org of John Smart and
Ken Hayworth) can be seen as an analog solid state upload database,
which is almost good enough, but we can read it only once without a
backup copy.

On Wed, Nov 21, 2012 at 11:31 AM, Anders Sandberg <anders at aleph.se> wrote:
> On 21/11/2012 07:17, Giulio Prisco wrote:
>>
>> Anders "the probabilities get serious for decent uploads around 2050,
>> and merely working ones in 2037"
>>
>> This sounds like sweet music to me, especially because there is a
>> little possibility that I am still alive in 2050, and a more solid
>> possibility that I am still alive in 2037.
>>
>> But my gut feeling is that it will take longer, perhaps much longer.
>> Perhaps the first experimental uploads around the end of the century.
>> I hope I am wrong, and I would love to hear solid arguments in support
>> of Anders' timeline.
>
>
> I really should publish my full analysis as a tech report, especially since
> Stuart Armstrong praised it at the Singularity Summit. It should of course
> be taken with a mountain of salt. Basically it is a Monte Carlo model of
> different scenarios of Moore's law, the complexity of the brain, progress in
> neuroscience and scanning tech.
>
> It is worth remembering that I get a probability distribution with my full
> model, not a single date: the previous post on this list was a back of the
> envelope sketch based on single numbers. The full distribution looks a bit
> like a lognormal distribution starting to build height in the 2030s and
> having a peak mid-century, with a very very long tail stretching into the
> future.
>
> I'll promise I will work on a report when I get some time after the big AGI
> conference in December.
>
> But, yeah, we should get cryonics contracts and work on other ways of life
> extension. Uploading is not going to be easy.
>
>
> --
> Anders Sandberg,
> Future of Humanity Institute
> Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From listsb at infinitefaculty.org  Wed Nov 21 16:35:21 2012
From: listsb at infinitefaculty.org (Brian Manning Delaney)
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2012 17:35:21 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Low-calorie diet not linked with longevity
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armi+Vyahv89mJeQpfXD-M9SGBH-ZHBGuAwZKpNXiWxgh1Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv0TX3Yo-XPvjffJ1YrbO_yH3CwLpYKJ48-6JexCbnNQFQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armi+Vyahv89mJeQpfXD-M9SGBH-ZHBGuAwZKpNXiWxgh1Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <50AD02C9.2040304@infinitefaculty.org>

El 2012-08-30 17:24, BillK escribi?:
> On Thu, Aug 30, 2012 at 3:05 PM, John Clark  wrote:
>> http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/low-calorie-diet-not-linked-with-longevity-in-monkeys-study-finds/2012/08/29/294ec174-f1fa-11e1-a612-3cfc842a6d89_story.html
>>
>
> I don't think it is all bad news.  [...]


To put it mildly.

Here we have an ex. of somewhat bad science, and lots of REALLY bad 
science reporting, having the potential to shorten the lives of lots of 
people.

Another perspective:

http://www.crsociety.org/science/nia_monkey_study

There are reasons not to be on CR, to be sure. The NIA study isn't one 
of them though.

-Brian




From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Thu Nov 22 03:16:36 2012
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2012 19:16:36 -0800
Subject: [ExI] James Lovelock
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB7Lfpv2Uw+i+pTObafqXfRzNdLdNdb=JP4DL36POTL3bw@mail.gmail.com>

Lovelock seems to have a sensible view of carbon and related problems.

Does anyone here have a contact for him?

Keith


From spike66 at att.net  Fri Nov 23 07:48:41 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2012 23:48:41 -0800
Subject: [ExI] FW: Gifted Children
In-Reply-To: <1375343289.405903.1353646769421.JavaMail.root@psi.edu>
References: <2111165646.405856.1353645517617.JavaMail.root@psi.edu>
 <1375343289.405903.1353646769421.JavaMail.root@psi.edu>
Message-ID: <006101cdc94e$f5318df0$df94a9d0$@att.net>


Dear Spike: Could you forward this onto the Extropians List with this Subject? It's  a little later and the conversation is pretty much ended, but it still might be helpful. Thanks.  Amara


Dear Amara, done diddley done, neighborino!  spike

-----Original Message-----
From: Amara Graps [mailto:graps at psi.edu] 
Sent: Thursday, November 22, 2012 8:59 PM
To: spike66 at att.net
Subject: Gifted Children

Dear Spike: Could you forward this onto the Extropians List with this Subject? It's  a little later and the conversation is pretty much ended, but it still might be helpful. Thanks.

I had a really startling dream last night, that brought me back to my old self (*). Which brought me to look at the extropians list. Curious.
Then I saw Sondre's post. My goodness. I had to say something.

Dear Sondre:

First, you have my support to move to whatever country suits you. I moved to Latvia from the US this past summer. I researched their support of kids and at least for the young ones, what they provide is awesome, especially compared with what I faced in the US. And so far, I think it was a good decision  for shifting the financial equation in my life of: my work, my time with my daughter. Still grappling with lack-of-time issues, and lack-of-me-time, especially, but those isssues are  not suffocating like it was in the US.

Second, I don't recommend moving to the US. Childcare costs will put you on the road to bankruptcy. If that doesn't, then your little girl's medical bills will.  If that doesn't bother you, then daycare regulations might. Or perhaps the knowledge that policeman patrol many public schools. And that U.S. public schools vary widely in their quality, with a good portion of them being pretty awful. Private schools will put you in bankruptcy, if the childcare and medical bills didn't.
And if that doesn't bother you, then the food quality might (Monsanto tainted fruits and vegetables). And if that doesn't bother you, then where to live where one doesn't need a car? Few cities permit you to live your daily life using your own feet or wheels. These are all reasons that were compelling enough to me, to move my little girl out at age 3.5 years.

Third: Beware of putting screens in front of such a young one. By screens, I mean videos, TV, interactive video games, games with flashy noises and lights.  Believe in the power of less to support the cognitive development of your child. The first years are the most important years of a human's brain development. At these ages, they are the most vulnerable to the screens' effects. From 0 to age 2, most of the brains' development including its fundamental neural architecture occurs, in relation to and in interaction with environmental stimuli.
Neurologists have identified three types of stimuli or interaction that optimize brain grown: babies need interaction with parents and other humans, they need to manipulate their environment (to touch things, to feel and move them), and they need to do problem-solving activities (such as the 'where did it go?' problem-solving of peekaboo). Screens don't help with those things. You do. You are your baby's most important cognitive supporter. Additionally, until about age 6, children are developmentally and psychologically unable to differentiate between reality and fantasy. All of this and more is written in Kim John Payne's _Simplicity Parenting_. If you are going to buy any parenting book, this one should be the first, in my opinion.

As for my own daughter, I _think_ I have a gifted 4yo, but I don't really know. People who have followed my Facebook page can say more. It only seems that she has an easy time with whatever she tries and is amazingly expressive and articulate and fearless. I'm doing my best to support all of her inclinations. I haven't addressed which/how/what school she will start at age 6-7 (when public school starts here) and how to challenge her. Right now, learning her fourth language (Latvian, after English and Spanish and sign language) is proving enough of a challenge for her. Yes, she is probably linguistically gifted, but languages come amazingly easy for babies, so if you're going to move, now is a good time.


Amara


(*) Many of you know that I have been consumed in the last years with the combination of starting my family and trying to be fully funded in my research. Solo. Totally successful on the first. Partially successful on the second. Moved from Boulder to Latvia June 2012 because I wanted more time with my daughter and I was headed to being many tensofthousands$$ in debt due to childcare. Changing the equation is making a difference, but my life is not yet settled from my international move (another apartment move possible soon, but at least it would be in the same city).

-- 

Amara Graps, PhD             www.amara.com
Senior Scientist, Planetary Science Institute (PSI), Riga, Latvia




From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Fri Nov 23 19:10:05 2012
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2012 12:10:05 -0700
Subject: [ExI] FW: Gifted Children
In-Reply-To: <006101cdc94e$f5318df0$df94a9d0$@att.net>
References: <2111165646.405856.1353645517617.JavaMail.root@psi.edu>
 <1375343289.405903.1353646769421.JavaMail.root@psi.edu>
 <006101cdc94e$f5318df0$df94a9d0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy0tdqfpwLi3LjZz_fxdwmzx0oR0EPyc749QwVBrd7WW1A@mail.gmail.com>

"As for my own daughter, I _think_ I have a gifted 4yo, but I don't really
know. People who have followed my Facebook page can say more. It only seems
that she has an easy time with whatever she tries and is amazingly
expressive and articulate and fearless. I'm doing my best to support all of
her inclinations. I haven't addressed which/how/what school she will start
at age 6-7 (when public school starts here) and how to challenge her. Right
now, learning her fourth language (Latvian, after English and Spanish and
sign language) is proving enough of a challenge for her. Yes, she is
probably linguistically gifted, but languages come amazingly easy for
babies, so if you're going to move, now is a good time."


She is only four and learning her FOURTH language?!!!  I am stunned!!!
Being an American, I am floored by anyone who knows more than two
languages.  What I find amazing, is that a child's brain does not get the
various languages confused.  My mother once told me that a European of the
educated classes will typically know 4-5 languages fluently, and then be
able to "get by" in several more!


Among young Mormon full-time missionaries, they get a mere two months of
intensive language study at a training center, and then they are "thrown
into the pool" with an experienced missionary who looks after them.
Generally it takes the newbie a year to become fluent in the language of
the people he is proselyting.  But for those with lots of natural aptitude,
it can take half that long.


Being a product of the public education system here in the U.S., I did not
even start studying a foreign language till junior highschool.  Oh, well...


I need to learn Spanish, being that I live in Arizona.  And perhaps
Mandarin Chinese, since they are the next great world power...


John


On Fri, Nov 23, 2012 at 12:48 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

>
> Dear Spike: Could you forward this onto the Extropians List with this
> Subject? It's  a little later and the conversation is pretty much ended,
> but it still might be helpful. Thanks.  Amara
>
>
> Dear Amara, done diddley done, neighborino!  spike
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Amara Graps [mailto:graps at psi.edu]
> Sent: Thursday, November 22, 2012 8:59 PM
> To: spike66 at att.net
> Subject: Gifted Children
>
> Dear Spike: Could you forward this onto the Extropians List with this
> Subject? It's  a little later and the conversation is pretty much ended,
> but it still might be helpful. Thanks.
>
> I had a really startling dream last night, that brought me back to my old
> self (*). Which brought me to look at the extropians list. Curious.
> Then I saw Sondre's post. My goodness. I had to say something.
>
> Dear Sondre:
>
> First, you have my support to move to whatever country suits you. I moved
> to Latvia from the US this past summer. I researched their support of kids
> and at least for the young ones, what they provide is awesome, especially
> compared with what I faced in the US. And so far, I think it was a good
> decision  for shifting the financial equation in my life of: my work, my
> time with my daughter. Still grappling with lack-of-time issues, and
> lack-of-me-time, especially, but those isssues are  not suffocating like it
> was in the US.
>
> Second, I don't recommend moving to the US. Childcare costs will put you
> on the road to bankruptcy. If that doesn't, then your little girl's medical
> bills will.  If that doesn't bother you, then daycare regulations might. Or
> perhaps the knowledge that policeman patrol many public schools. And that
> U.S. public schools vary widely in their quality, with a good portion of
> them being pretty awful. Private schools will put you in bankruptcy, if the
> childcare and medical bills didn't.
> And if that doesn't bother you, then the food quality might (Monsanto
> tainted fruits and vegetables). And if that doesn't bother you, then where
> to live where one doesn't need a car? Few cities permit you to live your
> daily life using your own feet or wheels. These are all reasons that were
> compelling enough to me, to move my little girl out at age 3.5 years.
>
> Third: Beware of putting screens in front of such a young one. By screens,
> I mean videos, TV, interactive video games, games with flashy noises and
> lights.  Believe in the power of less to support the cognitive development
> of your child. The first years are the most important years of a human's
> brain development. At these ages, they are the most vulnerable to the
> screens' effects. From 0 to age 2, most of the brains' development
> including its fundamental neural architecture occurs, in relation to and in
> interaction with environmental stimuli.
> Neurologists have identified three types of stimuli or interaction that
> optimize brain grown: babies need interaction with parents and other
> humans, they need to manipulate their environment (to touch things, to feel
> and move them), and they need to do problem-solving activities (such as the
> 'where did it go?' problem-solving of peekaboo). Screens don't help with
> those things. You do. You are your baby's most important cognitive
> supporter. Additionally, until about age 6, children are developmentally
> and psychologically unable to differentiate between reality and fantasy.
> All of this and more is written in Kim John Payne's _Simplicity Parenting_.
> If you are going to buy any parenting book, this one should be the first,
> in my opinion.
>
> As for my own daughter, I _think_ I have a gifted 4yo, but I don't really
> know. People who have followed my Facebook page can say more. It only seems
> that she has an easy time with whatever she tries and is amazingly
> expressive and articulate and fearless. I'm doing my best to support all of
> her inclinations. I haven't addressed which/how/what school she will start
> at age 6-7 (when public school starts here) and how to challenge her. Right
> now, learning her fourth language (Latvian, after English and Spanish and
> sign language) is proving enough of a challenge for her. Yes, she is
> probably linguistically gifted, but languages come amazingly easy for
> babies, so if you're going to move, now is a good time.
>
>
> Amara
>
>
> (*) Many of you know that I have been consumed in the last years with the
> combination of starting my family and trying to be fully funded in my
> research. Solo. Totally successful on the first. Partially successful on
> the second. Moved from Boulder to Latvia June 2012 because I wanted more
> time with my daughter and I was headed to being many tensofthousands$$ in
> debt due to childcare. Changing the equation is making a difference, but my
> life is not yet settled from my international move (another apartment move
> possible soon, but at least it would be in the same city).
>
> --
>
> Amara Graps, PhD             www.amara.com
> Senior Scientist, Planetary Science Institute (PSI), Riga, Latvia
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From anders at aleph.se  Sat Nov 24 09:24:34 2012
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2012 10:24:34 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Languages (Was: Gifted Children)
In-Reply-To: <CAGSKFy0tdqfpwLi3LjZz_fxdwmzx0oR0EPyc749QwVBrd7WW1A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2111165646.405856.1353645517617.JavaMail.root@psi.edu>
 <1375343289.405903.1353646769421.JavaMail.root@psi.edu>
 <006101cdc94e$f5318df0$df94a9d0$@att.net>
 <CAGSKFy0tdqfpwLi3LjZz_fxdwmzx0oR0EPyc749QwVBrd7WW1A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <50B09252.3030407@aleph.se>

On 2012-11-23 20:10, John Grigg wrote:
> Being an American, I am floored by anyone who knows more than two
> languages.  What I find amazing, is that a child's brain does not get
> the various languages confused.  My mother once told me that a European
> of the educated classes will typically know 4-5 languages fluently, and
> then be able to "get by" in several more!

Bilingualism is pretty impressive. And it does seem to have some 
cognitive enhancing effects, even. When you learn extra languages after 
your brain's critical period they are not represented in the same way in 
the brain and you have more of a context switch when moving from one to 
another.

Learning by immersion is apparently the best way to really learn a 
language. This is also likely why educated Europeans are so 
multilingual: they move around in environments where people actually 
speak several languages.

> Being a product of the public education system here in the U.S., I did
> not even start studying a foreign language till junior highschool.  Oh,
> well...

That is a bit late. English starts in first or second grade in Sweden, 
and by junior high-school there is another foreign language (typically 
German, French or Spanish). Of course, kids today are highly motivated 
to learn English anyway since most cool stuff is in English - and they 
are of course exposed to English on TV with substitles.


There is some research on cognition enhancers to help language learning, 
but most experiments have been pretty limited to short training sessions 
rather than actual languages. There is also some interesting research on 
re-opening critical periods of learning: maybe one day we can just dial 
up infant-level rapid language acquisition when we need it.


-- 
Anders Sandberg
Future of Humanity Institute
Oxford University


From dan_ust at yahoo.com  Sat Nov 24 17:44:58 2012
From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan)
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2012 09:44:58 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ExI] Why space tech isn't cutting edge
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNQ84VXqA=8mfiQneNfq=E7tJH6g3xu7RGo40vUj0DFtqw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armhBmUOxH8N24yc6G8Wv75Ld9yzwVr2qO3hprpmKZ=LiBg@mail.gmail.com>
 <00c101cdc661$00783e20$0168ba60$@att.net>
 <1353342072.81852.YahooMailNeo@web126201.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAL_armgm+HL3tbkOFsNi4=qB7Q+L6DVqZqG_r8Oy1uDhjRtbkQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQEHJQECpwMPYh+sdT8=Q31qMaZT+aOwxDRY0hos066rw@mail.gmail.com>
 <014f01cdc68c$49b3be90$dd1b3bb0$@att.net>
 <CAOJFdbJ_Mpf_Nu10x18HVJgCd4efi1xXnDVJYZB5em-V8OWBQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQ84VXqA=8mfiQneNfq=E7tJH6g3xu7RGo40vUj0DFtqw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1353779098.37034.YahooMailNeo@web126205.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

On Monday, November 19, 2012 3:37 PM Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:

>> On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 2:30 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>>> Be aware however that the path to such a
>>> coating in littered with the corpses of those who have gone before and
>>> failed.
>>
>> Are you available for sweeping the corpses aside?? I'd imagine they
>> would also greatly impede progress.

>
> On the contrary.? When inventing something like this, it can be quite
> helpful to look at past efforts and understand why they failed: they can
> often identify non-obvious problems, at the cost of their research
> funding.? Too bad, so sad for them, but at least subsequent efforts can
> learn from their fails.


I have no problem with looking at past failed efforts and see this a problem with some research: not having enough perspective to choose likely better approaches or just retest something that failed because maybe the general concept was sound but they muffed the implementation. And the attitude here should be that even failures expand the knowledge base. (Well, to be sure, depending on what failed. If the failure is of the sort that the thing blew up on launch, so it never made it to space to be tested in situ, well, it's not like ignorance in that area was pierced.:)


That said, as the cost to orbit drops, which seems more likely now (especially with NASA pulling back in some areas; less funding likely means less of a corporate welfare approach -- less of an approach that keeps prices high because the stationary bandit is footing the bill), it might be easier just to do all kinds of trial and error tests that lead to solutions that might never be found if one worked from known theories or known working applications alone.

Regards,

Dan




From spike66 at att.net  Sat Nov 24 18:18:11 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2012 10:18:11 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Why space tech isn't cutting edge
In-Reply-To: <1353779098.37034.YahooMailNeo@web126205.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <CAL_armhBmUOxH8N24yc6G8Wv75Ld9yzwVr2qO3hprpmKZ=LiBg@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <01b801cdca70$105a8c90$310fa5b0$@att.net>


>... On Behalf Of Dan
Subject: Re: [ExI] Why space tech isn't cutting edge

>> On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 2:30 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>>> Be aware however that the path to such a coating in littered with 
>>> the corpses of those who have gone before and failed...  spike


>...I have no problem with looking at past failed efforts and see this a
problem with some research... it might be easier just to do all kinds of
trial and error tests that lead to solutions that might never be found if
one worked from known theories or known working applications alone.
Regards, Dan
____________________________________________

Dan this is one of those special cases where a lot of trial and error would
produce very predictable results.  We have a microprocessor, we have in
enclosed in something.  Whenever a sufficiently high energy particle comes
in, it hits a solid surface which is held together by chemical bonds.  If
the kinetic energy of the particle is sufficiently high, it does not matter
what those chemical bonds are or how strong: the electromagnetic attraction
that forms bonds is negligible compared to the energy of the incoming
particle.  So the particle whacks loose a shower of secondary particles, all
of which have lower energy, but they are charged, since that secondary
shower contains electrons and protons, along with plenty of other oddball
ons which we never see outside of some super high energy event, such as in a
particle accelerator.

So we get this shower of secondary particles that hit the microprocessor,
and we know by Maxwell's equations an incoming charged particle creates an
EM field which in some rare cases can flip a bit, which does unpredictable
things to the process or memory.  Sufficiently geezerly types here may
recall playing Core War back in the 70s.  The space environment plays a
pumped up version of Core War with our processes, but rather than just flip
a bit, in some cases it might actually fuck up the processor hardware
itself.  So it is possible that there is a smallest practical integration or
smallest practical interconnect that can be used for space applications in
which the mission depends on the processor working perfectly, if we keep
with our present software paradigm.

To make matters worse, usually whenever there is a holy grail to be found,
there are many seekers, and they are not eager to tell the others where they
have already searched.  The failed attempts are valuable trade secrets.  I
can imagine the lads up at Berkeley must be amused at the parade of geeks
that come thru with the same old tired ideas that the accelerator lads
already know will fail.  But they are not at liberty to divulge that
information, and wouldn't in any case, for that geek parade pays the bills
up there on the hill and keeps the lights on up at the cyclotron.

I am of the notion that the answer is to go to massssssive parallelism,
massive.  We need not three but about thirty processors, where a majority
vote means something.  Then we can go ahead and let them shrink to these
super-tiny integrations we see on the market today, knowing that some of
them will get zapped by cosmic rays.  In the meantime, the good old i486 is
still used in some flight applications.

spike





From dan_ust at yahoo.com  Sat Nov 24 18:20:01 2012
From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan)
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2012 10:20:01 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ExI] Vegetative patient free of pain
In-Reply-To: <CAPoR7a4HAMTQHy9rHwfPjShL-N6Ai3Jq2NFht+d4GNhaUW03+Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1211141939530.13627@tau.ceti.pl>
 <1353110725.8177.YahooMailNeo@web126203.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAPoR7a77TTQ_QJDZWXDDRHqbbcTg-hEq=553sKMonqedkBAz-w@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <1353781201.73656.YahooMailNeo@web126206.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

On Monday, November 19, 2012 9:16 AM Stefano Vaj <stefano.vaj at gmail.com> wrote:

> On 19 November 2012 00:05, Dan <dan_ust at yahoo.com> wrote:
>> I would err on the side of the message be right when it's of the "I want
>> to live" type and possibly mistaken when it's the opposite. That seems
>> the reasonable position to take, no? 
>
> Yes, I think it appears reasonable at least not to ignore possible "make me live"
> messages, even though this may mean that a few vegetative patients will be kept
> alive that are not actually conscious, do want to die, or simply do not care.


Agreed.

>>> Having said that, I expect that the technology will become an argument
>>> for pro-life partisans to the effect that people responding in any way should
>>> not be allowed to die in any case ("hey, if they want to die they are
>>> conscious, so this is euthanasia, bla-bla).
>>
>> Well, there's a different argument there. If someone believes suicide is not to be
>> permitted, then, yeah, it doesn't matter what the patient wants. But I was talking
>> about when one doesn't hold that view.
>
> OK. I am just saying that those who are against assisted suicide will make the request
> to die a proof that the vegetative patient is in fact "alive" and conscious.


That's true and then it becomes more the issue of not allowing an assisted suicide. My guess is, though, this would be a harder sell if it became widely known, especially if the patient were in pain. I mean, yeah, people who are against suicide under all conditions are going to use such evidence to play the patient's request as one that can't be granted because communicating the request itself means the patient is alive (in a meaningful sense of the person being alive and not merely of a nonconscious collection of organ systems being alive), but I think this would likely lose sympathy to many others, maybe even most people. I'm guessing outside the US, in Europe especially, the general sentiment would likely fall more on the side of granting the request.


>> Also, what do you mean by "euthanasia"? The term is often used to mean
>> when the patient makes the request. In this case, of course, the problem is
>> if the patient has made the request (the reliability). If it's someone else making
>> it, then it's another kettle of fish.
>
> Currently, life-death decisions are certainly not made by vegetative patients, nor
> by newborns. Still, the relevant procedures are usually still called euthanasia.? 


Yeah, though I think that's a muddying of the term, but I don't know if I can shovel much sand against this tide of common usage. I still prefer to think of it in terms of self-termination, assisted or no.

>> Same here, which is always surprises me that many if not most self-identified
>> transhumanists seem to want to coerce other people, as in embracing various forms of statism.
>
> My point is however subtler: let us say that we do not intend to "coerce" nobody to live
> longer then he wish in a legal sense. 
>
> Do we consider persuading him to do so, or fostering a "live as long as you can at any
> cost" culture, part of our mission?
> 

> Because if the answer is "no", we can spare ourselves all the stupid debate about "are
> longer-living humans really happier, aren't they going to get bored, isn't intensity better
> than duration, etc", because basically what we want is simply having not just the option
> of dying, but also the option of living.

>From the perspective of coercion, the question is really at cost to whom? If others freely pay the costs, then it's not really a problem there: people who don't want to pay, don't have to; those who do, can do so. And it doesn't really become a public debate over controlling what people can or can't do with their resources or themselves.

But what I was bringing up here, if I'm understanding you, is no matter what culture you foster or don't, if people are allowed to exercise autonomy over their lives -- with the costs being borne by them and those who choose to help them -- then I think the whole issue becomes not much of a problem. The problem we have today arises because most people don't believe in this kind of autonomy. At best, they pay lip service to it, but would restrict it in all kinds of ways -- either because they "in principle" disagree with it or really don't think in terms of principles to begin with. (There's a difference between someone who has principles that simply disagree with yours and someone who really doesn't operate in terms of principles. I believe, from looking at all kinds of surveys over the years that most people fall into the later category. This isn't an attempt to moralize against them, but just to recognize that they simply don't work that way. However,
 those individuals, which I still think are the majority, tend to be persuaded by others things, typically public sentiment. So, if more people start leaning towards autonomy here, then I think many of these folks will follow. And, the history of humanity has been one of moving toward more autonomy in many arenas: slavery is pretty much gone (save for conscription, but even that's on the decline), marriage, sexuality, etc.)

Regards,

Dan




From dan_ust at yahoo.com  Sat Nov 24 18:31:08 2012
From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan)
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2012 10:31:08 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ExI] Why space tech isn't cutting edge
In-Reply-To: <CADYziYCmjsdfAUbi88ay0JCYGYvSP7oJswhP-g74-yEph1RoiA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armhBmUOxH8N24yc6G8Wv75Ld9yzwVr2qO3hprpmKZ=LiBg@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <1353781868.76314.YahooMailNeo@web126205.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

On Monday, November 19, 2012 8:23 PM Stephen Van Sickle <sjv2006 at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 1:29 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>> Giovanni, many questions here, short answer: modern electronics will work to
>> some extent in space. ?The problem is that you cannot operate those
>> electronics in such a way that your mission hangs on them working reliably. 
>
> A very interesting interview covering SpaceX's approach to these issues:
>
> http://www.aviationweek.com/Blogs.aspx?plckBlogId=Blog:04ce340e-4b63-4d23-9695-d49ab661f385&plckPostId=Blog%3A04ce340e-4b63-4d23-9695-d49ab661f385Post%3Aa8b87703-93f9-4cdf-885f-9429605e14df

Thanks for posting that. A pertinent part of the discussion there:


"Q: What's the downside to buying radiation-hardened hardware or software? Is it expensive, or just not widely available?"

"A: It's really not the expense that drives it. We're committed to having the best possible parts in all of our designs. So if it cost a lot and we needed it, we'd go get it. We were already required to have all this redundancy in the computers to meet all the different safety requirements. Then we started looking at what parts do we want to use and what is appropriate for this design. And what really is more important to us than the cost of the parts is the capability of the parts ? how much power do they use, how much memory do they hold, how much do they process, and how physically big are they. That's the first thing.

"The second thing is what tools they come with. We run the Linux operating system, we program everything in C++, and that enables us to tap into a huge pool of very talented people and find the absolute best people in the computer and software industry to work with us. If you go into the radiation hardened parts, they are very limited in terms of what languages you can work in, what support packages there are for them, who knows how to program in them. It really limits your ability to work with the parts. And the other thing it really does is they all take a little longer time to get and they're a little harder to come by."

Regards,

Dan




From dan_ust at yahoo.com  Sat Nov 24 18:49:51 2012
From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan)
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2012 10:49:51 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ExI] Why space tech isn't cutting edge
In-Reply-To: <01b801cdca70$105a8c90$310fa5b0$@att.net>
References: <CAL_armhBmUOxH8N24yc6G8Wv75Ld9yzwVr2qO3hprpmKZ=LiBg@mail.gmail.com>
 <00c101cdc661$00783e20$0168ba60$@att.net>
 <1353342072.81852.YahooMailNeo@web126201.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAL_armgm+HL3tbkOFsNi4=qB7Q+L6DVqZqG_r8Oy1uDhjRtbkQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQEHJQECpwMPYh+sdT8=Q31qMaZT+aOwxDRY0hos066rw@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <1353782991.48085.YahooMailNeo@web126201.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

On Saturday, November 24, 2012 1:18 PM spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

>>... On Behalf Of Dan
>>...I have no problem with looking at past failed efforts and see this a
>> problem with some research... it might be easier just to do all kinds of
>> trial and error tests that lead to solutions that might never be found if
>> one worked from known theories or known working applications alone.
>
> Dan this is one of those special cases where a lot of trial and error would
> produce very predictable results.? We have a microprocessor, we have in
> enclosed in something.? Whenever a sufficiently high energy particle comes
> in, it hits a solid surface which is held together by chemical bonds.? If
> the kinetic energy of the particle is sufficiently high, it does not matter
> what those chemical bonds are or how strong: the electromagnetic attraction
> that forms bonds is negligible compared to the energy of the incoming
> particle.? So the particle whacks loose a shower of secondary particles, all
> of which have lower energy, but they are charged, since that secondary
> shower contains electrons and protons, along with plenty of other oddball
> ons which we never see outside of some super high energy event, such as in a
> particle accelerator.
> 
> So we get this shower of secondary particles that hit the microprocessor,
> and we know by Maxwell's equations an incoming charged particle creates an
> EM field which in some rare cases can flip a bit, which does unpredictable
> things to the process or memory.? Sufficiently geezerly types here may
> recall playing Core War back in the 70s.? The space environment plays a
> pumped up version of Core War with our processes, but rather than just flip
> a bit, in some cases it might actually fuck up the processor hardware
> itself.? So it is possible that there is a smallest practical integration or
> smallest practical interconnect that can be used for space applications in
> which the mission depends on the processor working perfectly, if we keep
> with our present software paradigm.

I understand the physics. This wasn't my point. My point was rather that, if the price goes down low enough, all sorts of different solutions can be tried _in situ_ and solutions might crop up that one wouldn't expect from first principles or from ground tests.
?
> To make matters worse, usually whenever there is a holy grail to be found,
> there are many seekers, and they are not eager to tell the others where they
> have already searched.? The failed attempts are valuable trade secrets.? I
> can imagine the lads up at Berkeley must be amused at the parade of geeks
> that come thru with the same old tired ideas that the accelerator lads
> already know will fail.? But they are not at liberty to divulge that
> information, and wouldn't in any case, for that geek parade pays the bills
> up there on the hill and keeps the lights on up at the cyclotron.

That's another related problem and partly falls under the general issue of intellectual property.
?
> I am of the notion that the answer is to go to massssssive parallelism,
> massive.? We need not three but about thirty processors, where a majority
> vote means something.? Then we can go ahead and let them shrink to these
> super-tiny integrations we see on the market today, knowing that some of
> them will get zapped by cosmic rays.? In the meantime, the good old i486 is
> still used in some flight applications.

But that is the solution that's in place. (Of course, when you write "massssssive parallelism" I wasn't expecting you to talk about "thirty processors." That's not massive in most applications today, is it? I mean, back in the 1990s, massively parallel meant systems with an order or two higher in number of processors.) Even before the link Stephen sent in, I'd already read (and years ago at that) that the STS had, IIRC, five computers on board that crossed-checked each other and voted when there was a disagreement. The same is going on on the Falcon system.

I do see a problem with this if you get to the point where many components have degraded to the point where overall whole system reliability, even with voting, is affected. But that shouldn't need to be pointed out.

Anyhow, the whole thing is a known problem. My initial response here was not about what the physics was or not understanding the problem, but my surprise that this was a news item. Next, I expect a news story on the Sun not orbiting Earth. :)

Regards,

Dan
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From atymes at gmail.com  Sat Nov 24 18:47:23 2012
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2012 10:47:23 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Why space tech isn't cutting edge
In-Reply-To: <01b801cdca70$105a8c90$310fa5b0$@att.net>
References: <CAL_armhBmUOxH8N24yc6G8Wv75Ld9yzwVr2qO3hprpmKZ=LiBg@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CALAdGNQt9DP3i_dp9gg0KPnR4Mk-UFSR4fctP+-FAWxDo+P76A@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Nov 24, 2012 at 10:18 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> So we get this shower of secondary particles that hit the microprocessor,
> and we know by Maxwell's equations an incoming charged particle creates an
> EM field which in some rare cases can flip a bit

So, the problem with the secondaries is mainly that they are
charged?

Lead or tungsten around magnetic fields.

First layer: a dense material to make as certain as practical that no
cosmic rays will penetrate, but will instead create secondaries for
the second layer to deal with.  If possible, multiple layers of crystal
instead of one single crystal to maximize coverage, and minimize
gaps in the molecular structure that rays can get through.

Second layer: multiple layers of magnets, again arranged in layers
to minimize straight paths through.  Make these magnets strong
enough to suck up or deflect charged secondary particles.  You
don't have to stop them, just steer them away from the CPU inside.

What problems do you see with this?


From spike66 at att.net  Sat Nov 24 22:56:02 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2012 14:56:02 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Why space tech isn't cutting edge
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNQt9DP3i_dp9gg0KPnR4Mk-UFSR4fctP+-FAWxDo+P76A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armhBmUOxH8N24yc6G8Wv75Ld9yzwVr2qO3hprpmKZ=LiBg@mail.gmail.com>
 <00c101cdc661$00783e20$0168ba60$@att.net>
 <1353342072.81852.YahooMailNeo@web126201.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAL_armgm+HL3tbkOFsNi4=qB7Q+L6DVqZqG_r8Oy1uDhjRtbkQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQEHJQECpwMPYh+sdT8=Q31qMaZT+aOwxDRY0hos066rw@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <021301cdca96$e0e176f0$a2a464d0$@att.net>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes
Sent: Saturday, November 24, 2012 10:47 AM
To: ExI chat list
Subject: Re: [ExI] Why space tech isn't cutting edge

On Sat, Nov 24, 2012 at 10:18 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>>... So we get this shower of secondary particles that hit the 
> microprocessor, and we know by Maxwell's equations an incoming charged 
> particle creates an EM field which in some rare cases can flip a bit

>...So, the problem with the secondaries is mainly that they are charged?

>...Lead or tungsten around magnetic fields.

>...First layer: a dense material to make as certain as practical that no
cosmic rays will penetrate, but will instead create secondaries for the
second layer to deal with.  If possible, multiple layers of crystal instead
of one single crystal to maximize coverage, and minimize gaps in the
molecular structure that rays can get through.

>...Second layer: multiple layers of magnets, again arranged in layers to
minimize straight paths through.  Make these magnets strong enough to suck
up or deflect charged secondary particles.  You don't have to stop them,
just steer them away from the CPU inside.

>...What problems do you see with this?
_______________________________________________

>From what I understand, the cosmic particle goes all the way through the
shield, then the spray (we used to call it a spall cone) is ionized material
from the back surface of the shield.  The front surface is nearly irrelevant
because the shield itself stops the secondary particles that are generated
from the particle's path, but the back surface gets you.  Of course with
sufficiently thick shielding, you could physically stop the particle and
everything it generates.  

Consider variations, such as a proton-electron pair being part of the spall
cone, which would be not deflected by a magnetic field, since it is neutral
as a pair, but ionizes upon impact with the surface of the processor.  Or
another problem I can imagine is that the magnetic field would deflect the
electrons only, since they are light, but not the protons, so that a shower
of protons only would give your gate a net positive charge.  Another
possibility is that the electrons in the spall cone fail to penetrate the
surface of the processor but the protons go blasting on in.  In both cases,
that would cause your NPN junctions to go temporarily short and your PNP
junctions to go temporarily open.

I hope you come up with a solution to that cosmic ray problem.  We are
cheering wildly for you Adrian.

spike  



From spike66 at att.net  Sat Nov 24 23:46:36 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2012 15:46:36 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Why space tech isn't cutting edge
In-Reply-To: <021301cdca96$e0e176f0$a2a464d0$@att.net>
References: <CAL_armhBmUOxH8N24yc6G8Wv75Ld9yzwVr2qO3hprpmKZ=LiBg@mail.gmail.com>
 <00c101cdc661$00783e20$0168ba60$@att.net>
 <1353342072.81852.YahooMailNeo@web126201.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAL_armgm+HL3tbkOFsNi4=qB7Q+L6DVqZqG_r8Oy1uDhjRtbkQ@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CALAdGNQ84VXqA=8mfiQneNfq=E7tJH6g3xu7RGo40vUj0DFtqw@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CALAdGNQt9DP3i_dp9gg0KPnR4Mk-UFSR4fctP+-FAWxDo+P76A@mail.gmail.com>
 <021301cdca96$e0e176f0$a2a464d0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <022701cdca9d$f1214ca0$d363e5e0$@att.net>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of spike

>...  In both cases, that would cause your NPN junctions to go temporarily
short and your PNP junctions to go temporarily open.  spike  

_______________________________________________


Ooops switched these, damn.  The NPN junctions would go temporarily open and
the PNPs short with a proton shower, apologies.  

If the clock speed is not too crazy fast, then this effect probably wouldn't
cause a bit flip.  All modern processors are crazy fast.

spike



From msd001 at gmail.com  Sun Nov 25 00:14:45 2012
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2012 19:14:45 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Why space tech isn't cutting edge
In-Reply-To: <022701cdca9d$f1214ca0$d363e5e0$@att.net>
References: <CAL_armhBmUOxH8N24yc6G8Wv75Ld9yzwVr2qO3hprpmKZ=LiBg@mail.gmail.com>
 <00c101cdc661$00783e20$0168ba60$@att.net>
 <1353342072.81852.YahooMailNeo@web126201.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAL_armgm+HL3tbkOFsNi4=qB7Q+L6DVqZqG_r8Oy1uDhjRtbkQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQEHJQECpwMPYh+sdT8=Q31qMaZT+aOwxDRY0hos066rw@mail.gmail.com>
 <014f01cdc68c$49b3be90$dd1b3bb0$@att.net>
 <CAOJFdbJ_Mpf_Nu10x18HVJgCd4efi1xXnDVJYZB5em-V8OWBQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQ84VXqA=8mfiQneNfq=E7tJH6g3xu7RGo40vUj0DFtqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <1353779098.37034.YahooMailNeo@web126205.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <01b801cdca70$105a8c90$310fa5b0$@att.net>
 <CALAdGNQt9DP3i_dp9gg0KPnR4Mk-UFSR4fctP+-FAWxDo+P76A@mail.gmail.com>
 <021301cdca96$e0e176f0$a2a464d0$@att.net>
 <022701cdca9d$f1214ca0$d363e5e0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAOJFdbK=LjyZYdRh6rPd3QLsQnY8_+B3fP9JizCXQReA7-O-tw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Nov 24, 2012 at 6:46 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> If the clock speed is not too crazy fast, then this effect probably wouldn't
> cause a bit flip.  All modern processors are crazy fast.

How would these issues change if/when plastic or biochemical hardware
is signalling with light instead of electricity?


From spike66 at att.net  Sun Nov 25 02:32:46 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2012 18:32:46 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Why space tech isn't cutting edge
In-Reply-To: <CAOJFdbK=LjyZYdRh6rPd3QLsQnY8_+B3fP9JizCXQReA7-O-tw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armhBmUOxH8N24yc6G8Wv75Ld9yzwVr2qO3hprpmKZ=LiBg@mail.gmail.com>
 <00c101cdc661$00783e20$0168ba60$@att.net>
 <1353342072.81852.YahooMailNeo@web126201.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAL_armgm+HL3tbkOFsNi4=qB7Q+L6DVqZqG_r8Oy1uDhjRtbkQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQEHJQECpwMPYh+sdT8=Q31qMaZT+aOwxDRY0hos066rw@mail.gmail.com>
 <014f01cdc68c$49b3be90$dd1b3bb0$@att.net>
 <CAOJFdbJ_Mpf_Nu10x18HVJgCd4efi1xXnDVJYZB5em-V8OWBQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQ84VXqA=8mfiQneNfq=E7tJH6g3xu7RGo40vUj0DFtqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <1353779098.37034.YahooMailNeo@web126205.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <01b801cdca70$105a8c90$310fa5b0$@att.net>
 <CALAdGNQt9DP3i_dp9gg0KPnR4Mk-UFSR4fctP+-FAWxDo+P76A@mail.gmail.com>
 <021301cdca96$e0e176f0$a2a464d0$@att.net>
 <022701cdca9d$f1214ca0$d363e5e0$@att.net>
 <CAOJFdbK=LjyZYdRh6rPd3QLsQnY8_+B3fP9JizCXQReA7-O-tw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <024501cdcab5$28440490$78cc0db0$@att.net>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Mike Dougherty
Subject: Re: [ExI] Why space tech isn't cutting edge

On Sat, Nov 24, 2012 at 6:46 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

>>... If the clock speed is not too crazy fast, then this effect probably
wouldn't cause a bit flip.  All modern processors are crazy fast.

>...How would these issues change if/when plastic or biochemical hardware is
signalling with light instead of electricity?
_______________________________________________


Good question, Mike.  If a charged particle collides with a photosensor,
there would be bremsstrahlung radiation, which might look like a luminal
signal.  But it might work anyway.  Work that out, and aerospace engineers
will pay money for your bathwater.

spike



From atymes at gmail.com  Sun Nov 25 03:21:33 2012
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2012 19:21:33 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Why space tech isn't cutting edge
In-Reply-To: <021301cdca96$e0e176f0$a2a464d0$@att.net>
References: <CAL_armhBmUOxH8N24yc6G8Wv75Ld9yzwVr2qO3hprpmKZ=LiBg@mail.gmail.com>
 <00c101cdc661$00783e20$0168ba60$@att.net>
 <1353342072.81852.YahooMailNeo@web126201.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAL_armgm+HL3tbkOFsNi4=qB7Q+L6DVqZqG_r8Oy1uDhjRtbkQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQEHJQECpwMPYh+sdT8=Q31qMaZT+aOwxDRY0hos066rw@mail.gmail.com>
 <014f01cdc68c$49b3be90$dd1b3bb0$@att.net>
 <CAOJFdbJ_Mpf_Nu10x18HVJgCd4efi1xXnDVJYZB5em-V8OWBQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQ84VXqA=8mfiQneNfq=E7tJH6g3xu7RGo40vUj0DFtqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <1353779098.37034.YahooMailNeo@web126205.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <01b801cdca70$105a8c90$310fa5b0$@att.net>
 <CALAdGNQt9DP3i_dp9gg0KPnR4Mk-UFSR4fctP+-FAWxDo+P76A@mail.gmail.com>
 <021301cdca96$e0e176f0$a2a464d0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNTsU7VyWEuMi0tHAwe_1H_CgqGctiRM7OWkdYYrzddDAg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Nov 24, 2012 at 2:56 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> From what I understand, the cosmic particle goes all the way through the
> shield, then the spray (we used to call it a spall cone) is ionized material
> from the back surface of the shield.  The front surface is nearly irrelevant
> because the shield itself stops the secondary particles that are generated
> from the particle's path, but the back surface gets you.  Of course with
> sufficiently thick shielding, you could physically stop the particle and
> everything it generates.

How thick are we talking, approximately?  Is it correct to interpret that
as, any solid shield less than that might as well not be there, for the
(lack of) protection it provides?  Because if so, then you have to worry
about the spall cone that is generated inside the chip itself - forget
about any shielding, if the cosmic particle itself is not prevented from
intersecting the chip.

Also, is it possible to meaningfully alter the course of the cosmic
particle - say, over the distance of 10 meters, deflect it by millimeters?

> Consider variations, such as a proton-electron pair being part of the spall
> cone, which would be not deflected by a magnetic field, since it is neutral
> as a pair, but ionizes upon impact with the surface of the processor.

Unless you mean basically a high-speed hydrogen atom (and it seems
like the particles would be moving too fast to bond like that before reaching
the chip), the field can pull the pair apart.

> Or
> another problem I can imagine is that the magnetic field would deflect the
> electrons only, since they are light, but not the protons, so that a shower
> of protons only would give your gate a net positive charge.

You'd design the field to deflect the protons too.

> I hope you come up with a solution to that cosmic ray problem.  We are
> cheering wildly for you Adrian.

Yeah, well, only if you help.  :P


From spike66 at att.net  Sun Nov 25 04:23:43 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2012 20:23:43 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Why space tech isn't cutting edge
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNTsU7VyWEuMi0tHAwe_1H_CgqGctiRM7OWkdYYrzddDAg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armhBmUOxH8N24yc6G8Wv75Ld9yzwVr2qO3hprpmKZ=LiBg@mail.gmail.com>
 <00c101cdc661$00783e20$0168ba60$@att.net>
 <1353342072.81852.YahooMailNeo@web126201.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAL_armgm+HL3tbkOFsNi4=qB7Q+L6DVqZqG_r8Oy1uDhjRtbkQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQEHJQECpwMPYh+sdT8=Q31qMaZT+aOwxDRY0hos066rw@mail.gmail.com>
 <014f01cdc68c$49b3be90$dd1b3bb0$@att.net>
 <CAOJFdbJ_Mpf_Nu10x18HVJgCd4efi1xXnDVJYZB5em-V8OWBQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQ84VXqA=8mfiQneNfq=E7tJH6g3xu7RGo40vUj0DFtqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <1353779098.37034.YahooMailNeo@web126205.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <01b801cdca70$105a8c90$310fa5b0$@att.net>
 <CALAdGNQt9DP3i_dp9gg0KPnR4Mk-UFSR4fctP+-FAWxDo+P76A@mail.gmail.com>
 <021301cdca96$e0e176f0$a2a464d0$@att.net>
 <CALAdGNTsU7VyWEuMi0tHAwe_1H_CgqGctiRM7OWkdYYrzddDAg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <025401cdcac4$a795de30$f6c19a90$@att.net>



... On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes
Subject: Re: [ExI] Why space tech isn't cutting edge

On Sat, Nov 24, 2012 at 2:56 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:


>> ...  Of course with sufficiently thick shielding, you could physically
stop the particle and everything it generates.

>...How thick are we talking, approximately?

Good question.  The atmosphere is equivalent to a little over half a meter
of tungsten, so if that is sufficient, then a spherical shield would have a
mass of about 16 tons.  What do we get?  Another day older and deeper in
debt...


>...  Is it correct to interpret that as, any solid shield less than that
might as well not be there, for the (lack of) protection it provides?

Hmmm, understatement.  A shield might actually be worse than nothing at all,
since it doesn't stop many particles but generates a bunch of new ones in
the collision.

>...  Because if so, then you have to worry about the spall cone that is
generated inside the chip itself - forget about any shielding, if the cosmic
particle itself is not prevented from intersecting the chip...  

Keep in mind that cosmic rays come in all sizes.  So any shielding stops
some particles, and some particles punch right through any shielding.  In
the above example of using 1 atmosphere equivalent shielding, some particles
can punch all the way through the atmosphere.  If you ever get to see a
bubble chamber, there you see particles that penetrated the atmosphere and
the ceiling of whatever building you are in.  Our electronics work anyway,
so there aren't many of them.   But some do make it.

>...Also, is it possible to meaningfully alter the course of the cosmic
particle - say, over the distance of 10 meters, deflect it by millimeters?

Millimeters over 10 meters, I would sure think so.

>...Unless you mean basically a high-speed hydrogen atom (and it seems like
the particles would be moving too fast to bond like that before reaching the
chip), the field can pull the pair apart...

Ja, I don't know all the physics, it has been tragically many years since I
was fooling with this.  A good portion of those particles will be neutrons,
and your magnetic field will be useless against those things.  One of the
many things that can happen when a neutron hits something is that it somehow
creates a proton-electron pair, plus a neutrino to balance the spin and a
photon to balance the energy equation, but what I don't recall is how you
balance if there is a collision involved.  Adrian, you are making me THINK
here.  It's been a while since I worked on this stuff man.  Another unknown
here is I don't recall if the high-energy neutron actually bashes a nucleus
and creates its own bunch of neutrons, like a cue ball smacking into a rack
of billiard balls. 

>>... I hope you come up with a solution to that cosmic ray problem.  We are
cheering wildly for you Adrian.

>...Yeah, well, only if you help.  :P
_______________________________________________

Oy, I could fill a library with what I don't know.  Actually I couldn't:  I
wouldn't know what to put in it.

spike



From atymes at gmail.com  Sun Nov 25 04:54:52 2012
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2012 20:54:52 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Why space tech isn't cutting edge
In-Reply-To: <025401cdcac4$a795de30$f6c19a90$@att.net>
References: <CAL_armhBmUOxH8N24yc6G8Wv75Ld9yzwVr2qO3hprpmKZ=LiBg@mail.gmail.com>
 <00c101cdc661$00783e20$0168ba60$@att.net>
 <1353342072.81852.YahooMailNeo@web126201.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAL_armgm+HL3tbkOFsNi4=qB7Q+L6DVqZqG_r8Oy1uDhjRtbkQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQEHJQECpwMPYh+sdT8=Q31qMaZT+aOwxDRY0hos066rw@mail.gmail.com>
 <014f01cdc68c$49b3be90$dd1b3bb0$@att.net>
 <CAOJFdbJ_Mpf_Nu10x18HVJgCd4efi1xXnDVJYZB5em-V8OWBQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQ84VXqA=8mfiQneNfq=E7tJH6g3xu7RGo40vUj0DFtqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <1353779098.37034.YahooMailNeo@web126205.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <01b801cdca70$105a8c90$310fa5b0$@att.net>
 <CALAdGNQt9DP3i_dp9gg0KPnR4Mk-UFSR4fctP+-FAWxDo+P76A@mail.gmail.com>
 <021301cdca96$e0e176f0$a2a464d0$@att.net>
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Message-ID: <CALAdGNQisY4hm3E9Jvkf6igJ6W6K-3jKgg+wxKK8iNRupR5QQw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Nov 24, 2012 at 8:23 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> ... On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes
> Subject: Re: [ExI] Why space tech isn't cutting edge
> On Sat, Nov 24, 2012 at 2:56 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>>> ...  Of course with sufficiently thick shielding, you could physically
> stop the particle and everything it generates.
>
>>...How thick are we talking, approximately?
>
> Good question.  The atmosphere is equivalent to a little over half a meter
> of tungsten, so if that is sufficient, then a spherical shield would have a
> mass of about 16 tons.  What do we get?  Another day older and deeper in
> debt...

That might not be so bad for larger spaceships.  But then, I've
been looking at smaller rockets anyway.

>>...  Because if so, then you have to worry about the spall cone that is
> generated inside the chip itself - forget about any shielding, if the cosmic
> particle itself is not prevented from intersecting the chip...
>
> Keep in mind that cosmic rays come in all sizes.  So any shielding stops
> some particles, and some particles punch right through any shielding.  In
> the above example of using 1 atmosphere equivalent shielding, some particles
> can punch all the way through the atmosphere.  If you ever get to see a
> bubble chamber, there you see particles that penetrated the atmosphere and
> the ceiling of whatever building you are in.  Our electronics work anyway,
> so there aren't many of them.   But some do make it.

Hmm.  If our entire atmosphere is equal to a half meter of tungsten,
and that produces an acceptable error rate - might the error rate
still be acceptable with less shielding?  What's the thickness to
error rate relationship - would a quarter meter double the error rate,
less than double, or more than double?

>>...Also, is it possible to meaningfully alter the course of the cosmic
> particle - say, over the distance of 10 meters, deflect it by millimeters?
>
> Millimeters over 10 meters, I would sure think so.

Then, is it possible to absolutely protect a cubic millimeter in the
center of a 20+ meter diameter ship?

And then is it possible to absolutely protect multiple such cubic
millimeters, by shunting the cosmic particles into the spaces
between said millimeters?

And does the diversion mechanism need to be enclosed within
the spaceship, or can it be an electromagnetic field that is mostly
or entirely projected outside a (say) 1 to 2 meter diameter rocket,
to protect CPU cores at its center?

> Adrian, you are making me THINK
> here.

You are quite welcome.  :)

>>>... I hope you come up with a solution to that cosmic ray problem.  We are
> cheering wildly for you Adrian.
>
>>...Yeah, well, only if you help.  :P
>
> Oy, I could fill a library with what I don't know.  Actually I couldn't:  I
> wouldn't know what to put in it.

I don't mean just what you don't know, but also what you do - and
more importantly, what you know that you didn't previously think was
relevant.  ;)


From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Sun Nov 25 15:37:26 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2012 16:37:26 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Languages (Was: Gifted Children)
In-Reply-To: <50B09252.3030407@aleph.se>
References: <2111165646.405856.1353645517617.JavaMail.root@psi.edu>
 <1375343289.405903.1353646769421.JavaMail.root@psi.edu>
 <006101cdc94e$f5318df0$df94a9d0$@att.net>
 <CAGSKFy0tdqfpwLi3LjZz_fxdwmzx0oR0EPyc749QwVBrd7WW1A@mail.gmail.com>
 <50B09252.3030407@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a7CMDxEBVNt+21GWsbYBTC0kZcfMkCuqi=vNQdRK-J-jA@mail.gmail.com>

On 24 November 2012 10:24, Anders Sandberg <anders at aleph.se> wrote:

> Learning by immersion is apparently the best way to really learn a
> language. This is also likely why educated Europeans are so multilingual:
> they move around in environments where people actually speak several
> languages.
>

At least in southern Europe, polyglottism used to be a trademark of
academia and of cultivated gentry/bourgeosie.

My grandmother took for granted that an educated young lady should have at
least "some" command of Latin, French, English, perhaps German or Ancient
Greek or Spanish, piano, painting, tennis, ski, protocol, bridge, interior
design, etc. If her husband was not, such brutish habits could only be
justified by the odious demands of trade and of his possible lower birth.
Study of languages was however emphatically NOT of the immersive kind,
especially for dead languages.

Then, some of that spread across broader social environments. One wonders
if the pendulum is not swinging back, with the notable exception of English
omnipresence.

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Sun Nov 25 15:08:47 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2012 16:08:47 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Vegetative patient free of pain
In-Reply-To: <1353781201.73656.YahooMailNeo@web126206.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1211141939530.13627@tau.ceti.pl>
 <1353110725.8177.YahooMailNeo@web126203.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAPoR7a77TTQ_QJDZWXDDRHqbbcTg-hEq=553sKMonqedkBAz-w@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAPoR7a5d+Rq8aVD7E207iKfYaaMFBzz_jm5rc7zJZcWZ2GmQqg@mail.gmail.com>

On 24 November 2012 19:20, Dan <dan_ust at yahoo.com> wrote:

> That's true and then it becomes more the issue of not allowing an assisted
> suicide. My guess is, though, this would be a harder sell if it became
> widely known, especially if the patient were in pain. I mean, yeah, people
> who are against suicide under all conditions are going to use such evidence
> to play the patient's request as one that can't be granted because
> communicating the request itself means the patient is alive (in a
> meaningful sense of the person being alive and not merely of a nonconscious
> collection of organ systems being alive), but I think this would likely
> lose sympathy to many others, maybe even most people. I'm guessing outside
> the US, in Europe especially, the general sentiment would likely fall more
> on the side of granting the request.
>

One wonders, because assisted suicide *is* illegal in most European
countries and in most cases, even when the consciousness of those requiring
the assistance is undisputed, so that the ability to "pull the plug" for
the relatives or the courts is generally admitted for vegetative patients
on the basis of the idea that they are already "dead" in any practical
sense.

But what I was bringing up here, if I'm understanding you, is no matter
> what culture you foster or don't, if people are allowed to exercise
> autonomy over their lives -- with the costs being borne by them and those
> who choose to help them -- then I think the whole issue becomes not much of
> a problem. The problem we have today arises because most people don't
> believe in this kind of autonomy.
>

Yes, and I am with you here. One point however that regularly escape the
libertarian approach is "freedom to do what?". If I am not legally or
violently coerced, the non-secondary issue remains of what my "sovereign"
personal choices and preferences are or should be. To say that they should
be "free" is of little guidance as to their merits, and the cultural and
social norms that inspire them. For instance, I may respect the "freedom"
of somebody to devote all of its energies to the Invisibile Pink Unicorn
cult to the detriment of any other possible goal, but I cannot say that I
approve, condone or encourage that choice.

Conversely, my question is: do we have a stake in persuading people that
actually living as long as possible should be their first if not their sole
priority? My personal answer is that life-extensionism is not and should
not be about that, but about persuading people that any investment is worth
that can give us more *choice* on the matter.

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From mbb386 at main.nc.us  Sun Nov 25 18:00:59 2012
From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB)
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2012 13:00:59 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Vegetative patient free of pain
In-Reply-To: <CAPoR7a5d+Rq8aVD7E207iKfYaaMFBzz_jm5rc7zJZcWZ2GmQqg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1211141939530.13627@tau.ceti.pl>
 <1353110725.8177.YahooMailNeo@web126203.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAPoR7a77TTQ_QJDZWXDDRHqbbcTg-hEq=553sKMonqedkBAz-w@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <48e21f01413554ff296857644886c7d1.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>

>  persuading people that any
> investment is worth
> that can give us more *choice* on the matter.
>

Yes, this!  The right of choice is a vital thing - because
*you* can't see completely what *I* see, and *your*
decisions will not be based exactly on what *mine* will
be.

And for sure some bureaucrat somewhere will not see what I
see - *nor* what you see. Their decision will be based on
some other thing altogether.

As they said when I was setting up my divorce, "If you two
cannot come to an agreement on how to arrange this split,
a judge will do it for you, and rest assured it will not
be the way you think it ought to be!"

Regards,
MB





From kryonica at gmail.com  Sun Nov 25 15:45:34 2012
From: kryonica at gmail.com (Cryonica)
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2012 15:45:34 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Languages (Was: Gifted Children)
In-Reply-To: <CAPoR7a7CMDxEBVNt+21GWsbYBTC0kZcfMkCuqi=vNQdRK-J-jA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2111165646.405856.1353645517617.JavaMail.root@psi.edu>
 <1375343289.405903.1353646769421.JavaMail.root@psi.edu>
 <006101cdc94e$f5318df0$df94a9d0$@att.net>
 <CAGSKFy0tdqfpwLi3LjZz_fxdwmzx0oR0EPyc749QwVBrd7WW1A@mail.gmail.com>
 <50B09252.3030407@aleph.se>
 <CAPoR7a7CMDxEBVNt+21GWsbYBTC0kZcfMkCuqi=vNQdRK-J-jA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <23875D0F-B4AA-415E-B685-678FB70B2729@gmail.com>

Would have been difficult...  Maybe in the future when we can recreate Rome and Greece in virtual full immersion worlds we will be able to "spend" a year "abroad" in one of these and learn Latin by speaking to romans this will become an option.  I have always wanted to do that, live in ancient Rome for a while, learn their language and see what life was like then.  I would probably return rather shaken by the kind of things that could take place in the ancient world - but fluent in Latin!!!
On 25 Nov 2012, at 15:37, Stefano Vaj wrote:

> Study of languages was however emphatically NOT of the immersive kind, especially for dead languages.

Cryonica
kryonica at gmail.com



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From msd001 at gmail.com  Sun Nov 25 18:34:42 2012
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2012 13:34:42 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Languages (Was: Gifted Children)
In-Reply-To: <23875D0F-B4AA-415E-B685-678FB70B2729@gmail.com>
References: <2111165646.405856.1353645517617.JavaMail.root@psi.edu>
 <1375343289.405903.1353646769421.JavaMail.root@psi.edu>
 <006101cdc94e$f5318df0$df94a9d0$@att.net>
 <CAGSKFy0tdqfpwLi3LjZz_fxdwmzx0oR0EPyc749QwVBrd7WW1A@mail.gmail.com>
 <50B09252.3030407@aleph.se>
 <CAPoR7a7CMDxEBVNt+21GWsbYBTC0kZcfMkCuqi=vNQdRK-J-jA@mail.gmail.com>
 <23875D0F-B4AA-415E-B685-678FB70B2729@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOJFdbKiwxc_Cd87sfmb6av-kx=MSYPSj8TxJjr5PQzdW8P7iQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Nov 25, 2012 at 10:45 AM, Cryonica <kryonica at gmail.com> wrote:
> Would have been difficult...  Maybe in the future when we can recreate Rome
> and Greece in virtual full immersion worlds we will be able to "spend" a
> year "abroad" in one of these and learn Latin by speaking to romans this
> will become an option.  I have always wanted to do that, live in ancient
> Rome for a while, learn their language and see what life was like then.  I
> would probably return rather shaken by the kind of things that could take
> place in the ancient world - but fluent in Latin!!!

Q: "What do we want?" A: "Time Travel!"
Q: "When do we want it?"  A: "Irrelevant!"


From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Sun Nov 25 21:19:38 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2012 22:19:38 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Vegetative patient free of pain
In-Reply-To: <48e21f01413554ff296857644886c7d1.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1211141939530.13627@tau.ceti.pl>
 <1353110725.8177.YahooMailNeo@web126203.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAPoR7a77TTQ_QJDZWXDDRHqbbcTg-hEq=553sKMonqedkBAz-w@mail.gmail.com>
 <1353279916.35742.YahooMailNeo@web126203.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAPoR7a4HAMTQHy9rHwfPjShL-N6Ai3Jq2NFht+d4GNhaUW03+Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <1353781201.73656.YahooMailNeo@web126206.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAPoR7a5d+Rq8aVD7E207iKfYaaMFBzz_jm5rc7zJZcWZ2GmQqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <48e21f01413554ff296857644886c7d1.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a6PThEz=1m+QybODpLpfgN_eipM-HRFWNgTWz3g6upoMQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 25 November 2012 19:00, MB <mbb386 at main.nc.us> wrote:
> Yes, this!  The right of choice is a vital thing - because
> *you* can't see completely what *I* see, and *your*
> decisions will not be based exactly on what *mine* will
> be.

I would like Natasha, who appears to be quite into the Longevity
Party, to tell us what she thinks.

Should the Longevity Party, eg, demanding that social services be
established in order to persuade people to choose longer lives, or the
relevant costs could be better invested in developing technologies
allowing those interested to live even longer?

-- 
Stefano Vaj


From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Sun Nov 25 21:17:51 2012
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2012 14:17:51 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The latest supercomputing champion...
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy2xwBzYzgAfsVMQ6V-tr-gvrKx6F=kghZahj57E99S-nw@mail.gmail.com>

The latest supercomputer to be the world's fastest...


http://singularityhub.com/2012/11/25/americas-titan-surpasses-sequoia-as-worlds-fastest-supercomputer/?utm_source=The+Harvest+Is+Bountiful&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=a766178970-RSS_EMAIL_CAMPAIGN


I wonder where we will be by 2020 and 2030.  But I'll stay away from the
"emotionally charged" 2045 date... lol


John  : )
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From sparge at gmail.com  Sun Nov 25 22:58:46 2012
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2012 17:58:46 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Vegetative patient free of pain
In-Reply-To: <CAPoR7a5d+Rq8aVD7E207iKfYaaMFBzz_jm5rc7zJZcWZ2GmQqg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1211141939530.13627@tau.ceti.pl>
 <1353110725.8177.YahooMailNeo@web126203.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAPoR7a77TTQ_QJDZWXDDRHqbbcTg-hEq=553sKMonqedkBAz-w@mail.gmail.com>
 <1353279916.35742.YahooMailNeo@web126203.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAPoR7a4HAMTQHy9rHwfPjShL-N6Ai3Jq2NFht+d4GNhaUW03+Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <1353781201.73656.YahooMailNeo@web126206.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAPoR7a5d+Rq8aVD7E207iKfYaaMFBzz_jm5rc7zJZcWZ2GmQqg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2cbEWj9-WriVfXc5C67=AubSLCDUq-TZQ3n7_+1U0M0rA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Nov 25, 2012 at 10:08 AM, Stefano Vaj <stefano.vaj at gmail.com> wrote:
> Yes, and I am with you here. One point however that regularly escape the
> libertarian approach is "freedom to do what?". If I am not legally or
> violently coerced, the non-secondary issue remains of what my "sovereign"
> personal choices and preferences are or should be.

It's not libertarianism's job to tell you what to do. If you're
looking for moral guidance, look elsewhere.

> To say that they should
> be "free" is of little guidance as to their merits, and the cultural and
> social norms that inspire them. For instance, I may respect the "freedom" of
> somebody to devote all of its energies to the Invisibile Pink Unicorn cult
> to the detriment of any other possible goal, but I cannot say that I
> approve, condone or encourage that choice.

You don't have to approve, condone, or encourage other people's
choices, you just have to let them do what they think is right as long
they aren't preventing anyone else from exercising the same rights. If
they *want* your approval, for some reason, they're free to seek it,
of course.

-Dave


From giulio at gmail.com  Mon Nov 26 07:11:10 2012
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2012 08:11:10 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Rapture - NOT DRM-free
Message-ID: <CAKTCJyfz=tsx-TXJKc4cHvqcnJnbgSaF+HtbqXOVo1iwFA4ivw@mail.gmail.com>

I got a new Kindle that only works on Sprint so I cannot registerer it
in Europe. I added all my DRM-free Kindle books to the device, but of
course I cannot add the DRMed ones. I am afraid that the version of
Rapture sold by Amazon for Kindle has DRM. No big deal because I
downloaded also the DRM-free version and added it to the new device,
but I thought you should know.

On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 3:34 PM, Charlie Stross
<charlie.stross at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 17 Sep 2012, at 14:26, Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I bought it, but a Kindle version. No dead tree books for me.
>
> Note that the commercial ebook editions are supposed to be DRM-free. If you run up against DRM on "The Rapture of the Nerds", let me know and I'll get my publisher to yell at the e-tailer.
>
>
>
> -- Charlie
>
>
>> On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 3:20 PM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Mon, Sep 10, 2012 at 7:09 AM, Giulio Prisco wrote:
>>>> I bought the book and I am reading it. I read everything by Stross and
>>>> Doctorow. The first few pages are very fun.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Now available as a free download from Charles Stross' website.
>>> <http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/fiction/nerds/Cory_Doctorow_and_Charles_Stross_-_Rapture_of_the_Nerds.html>
>>>
>>> But he would still appreciate it if you bought a hardcover version.   :)
>>>
>>>
>>> BillK
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Mon Nov 26 11:45:02 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2012 12:45:02 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Vegetative patient free of pain
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2cbEWj9-WriVfXc5C67=AubSLCDUq-TZQ3n7_+1U0M0rA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1211141939530.13627@tau.ceti.pl>
 <1353110725.8177.YahooMailNeo@web126203.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAPoR7a77TTQ_QJDZWXDDRHqbbcTg-hEq=553sKMonqedkBAz-w@mail.gmail.com>
 <1353279916.35742.YahooMailNeo@web126203.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAPoR7a4HAMTQHy9rHwfPjShL-N6Ai3Jq2NFht+d4GNhaUW03+Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <1353781201.73656.YahooMailNeo@web126206.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAPoR7a5d+Rq8aVD7E207iKfYaaMFBzz_jm5rc7zJZcWZ2GmQqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2cbEWj9-WriVfXc5C67=AubSLCDUq-TZQ3n7_+1U0M0rA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a4NtP7Bd03xf3nTVMKsG2H-8awV4KBR0wUh4i_H5bjHaA@mail.gmail.com>

On 25 November 2012 23:58, Dave Sill <sparge at gmail.com> wrote:
> It's not libertarianism's job to tell you what to do. If you're
> looking for moral guidance, look elsewhere.

This is why it risks to be silent on crucial things. We may be free to
adopt different value systems, but are bound to adopt one or another.
Same as "being democratic" in the sense of thinking that legislators
and governments are best elected one way or another. It does not tell
you much on which party or candidate to vote for, except that you have
to "choose" them.

> You don't have to approve, condone, or encourage other people's
> choices, you just have to let them do what they think is right as long
> they aren't preventing anyone else from exercising the same rights.

Social and cultural norms do exist, though, and if you do not try and
influence them it simply means that you accept and passively support
those in place.

-- 
Stefano Vaj


From anders at aleph.se  Mon Nov 26 12:14:08 2012
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2012 13:14:08 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Why space tech isn't cutting edge
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNQisY4hm3E9Jvkf6igJ6W6K-3jKgg+wxKK8iNRupR5QQw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armhBmUOxH8N24yc6G8Wv75Ld9yzwVr2qO3hprpmKZ=LiBg@mail.gmail.com>
 <00c101cdc661$00783e20$0168ba60$@att.net>
 <1353342072.81852.YahooMailNeo@web126201.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAL_armgm+HL3tbkOFsNi4=qB7Q+L6DVqZqG_r8Oy1uDhjRtbkQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQEHJQECpwMPYh+sdT8=Q31qMaZT+aOwxDRY0hos066rw@mail.gmail.com>
 <014f01cdc68c$49b3be90$dd1b3bb0$@att.net>
 <CAOJFdbJ_Mpf_Nu10x18HVJgCd4efi1xXnDVJYZB5em-V8OWBQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQ84VXqA=8mfiQneNfq=E7tJH6g3xu7RGo40vUj0DFtqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <1353779098.37034.YahooMailNeo@web126205.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <01b801cdca70$105a8c90$310fa5b0$@att.net>
 <CALAdGNQt9DP3i_dp9gg0KPnR4Mk-UFSR4fctP+-FAWxDo+P76A@mail.gmail.com>
 <021301cdca96$e0e176f0$a2a464d0$@att.net>
 <CALAdGNTsU7VyWEuMi0tHAwe_1H_CgqGctiRM7OWkdYYrzddDAg@mail.gmail.com>
 <025401cdcac4$a795de30$f6c19a90$@att.net>
 <CALAdGNQisY4hm3E9Jvkf6igJ6W6K-3jKgg+wxKK8iNRupR5QQw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <50B35D10.8070003@aleph.se>

Given the topic, you might want to check out http://www.srim.org/ - 
there is software and data there to play with.

(of course found via xkcd... where else?)

-- 
Anders Sandberg
Future of Humanity Institute
Oxford University


From spike66 at att.net  Mon Nov 26 14:35:24 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2012 06:35:24 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Why space tech isn't cutting edge
In-Reply-To: <50B35D10.8070003@aleph.se>
References: <CAL_armhBmUOxH8N24yc6G8Wv75Ld9yzwVr2qO3hprpmKZ=LiBg@mail.gmail.com>
 <00c101cdc661$00783e20$0168ba60$@att.net>
 <1353342072.81852.YahooMailNeo@web126201.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAL_armgm+HL3tbkOFsNi4=qB7Q+L6DVqZqG_r8Oy1uDhjRtbkQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQEHJQECpwMPYh+sdT8=Q31qMaZT+aOwxDRY0hos066rw@mail.gmail.com>
 <014f01cdc68c$49b3be90$dd1b3bb0$@att.net>
 <CAOJFdbJ_Mpf_Nu10x18HVJgCd4efi1xXnDVJYZB5em-V8OWBQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQ84VXqA=8mfiQneNfq=E7tJH6g3xu7RGo40vUj0DFtqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <1353779098.37034.YahooMailNeo@web126205.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <01b801cdca70$105a8c90$310fa5b0$@att.net>
 <CALAdGNQt9DP3i_dp9gg0KPnR4Mk-UFSR4fctP+-FAWxDo+P76A@mail.gmail.com>
 <021301cdca96$e0e176f0$a2a464d0$@att.net>
 <CALAdGNTsU7VyWEuMi0tHAwe_1H_CgqGctiRM7OWkdYYrzddDAg@mail.gmail.com>
 <025401cdcac4$a795de30$f6c19a90$@att.net>
 <CALAdGNQisY4hm3E9Jvkf6igJ6W6K-3jKgg+wxKK8iNRupR5QQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <50B35D10.8070003@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <009101cdcbe3$45e14ba0$d1a3e2e0$@att.net>



>... On Behalf Of Anders Sandberg
Subject: Re: [ExI] Why space tech isn't cutting edge

>...Given the topic, you might want to check out http://www.srim.org/ -
there is software and data there to play with.

>...(of course found via xkcd... where else?)

--
Anders Sandberg
Future of Humanity Institute
Oxford University
_______________________________________________


You kids these days have it so easy!  Back when I was a lad, we had to
calculate this stuff.  Now you just google it on the internets and find
exactly what you need.

Cool Anders, thanks man!  This SRIM is way cool.

spike



From mbb386 at main.nc.us  Mon Nov 26 15:22:57 2012
From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB)
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2012 10:22:57 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Vegetative patient free of pain
In-Reply-To: <CAPoR7a6PThEz=1m+QybODpLpfgN_eipM-HRFWNgTWz3g6upoMQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1211141939530.13627@tau.ceti.pl>
 <1353110725.8177.YahooMailNeo@web126203.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAPoR7a77TTQ_QJDZWXDDRHqbbcTg-hEq=553sKMonqedkBAz-w@mail.gmail.com>
 <1353279916.35742.YahooMailNeo@web126203.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAPoR7a4HAMTQHy9rHwfPjShL-N6Ai3Jq2NFht+d4GNhaUW03+Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <1353781201.73656.YahooMailNeo@web126206.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAPoR7a5d+Rq8aVD7E207iKfYaaMFBzz_jm5rc7zJZcWZ2GmQqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <48e21f01413554ff296857644886c7d1.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
 <CAPoR7a6PThEz=1m+QybODpLpfgN_eipM-HRFWNgTWz3g6upoMQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2cefe2b9fbad9477f24afdcca08fd33b.squirrel@main.nc.us>

Stefano Vaj wrote:
>
> Should the Longevity Party, eg, demanding that social
> services be
> established in order to persuade people to choose longer
> lives, or the
> relevant costs could be better invested in developing
> technologies
> allowing those interested to live even longer?
>


Arrgh.  After this last election cycle in the US I don't
want *anyone* trying to persuade me of anything. I've quit
answering my phone - too many political calls. All the
junk mail, yuk.

*Demanding* social services be established (using whose
money, pray tell?) rubs my fur the wrong direction. :(
Even for something I favor.

Regards,
MB





From spike66 at att.net  Tue Nov 27 05:04:54 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2012 21:04:54 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Vegetative patient free of pain
In-Reply-To: <2cefe2b9fbad9477f24afdcca08fd33b.squirrel@main.nc.us>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1211141939530.13627@tau.ceti.pl>
 <1353110725.8177.YahooMailNeo@web126203.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAPoR7a77TTQ_QJDZWXDDRHqbbcTg-hEq=553sKMonqedkBAz-w@mail.gmail.com>
 <1353279916.35742.YahooMailNeo@web126203.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAPoR7a4HAMTQHy9rHwfPjShL-N6Ai3Jq2NFht+d4GNhaUW03+Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <1353781201.73656.YahooMailNeo@web126206.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAPoR7a5d+Rq8aVD7E207iKfYaaMFBzz_jm5rc7zJZcWZ2GmQqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <48e21f01413554ff296857644886c7d1.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
 <CAPoR7a6PThEz=1m+QybODpLpfgN_eipM-HRFWNgTWz3g6upoMQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <2cefe2b9fbad9477f24afdcca08fd33b.squirrel@main.nc.us>
Message-ID: <017501cdcc5c$bdea0320$39be0960$@att.net>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of MB
...

>...*Demanding* social services be established (using whose money, pray
tell?) ...MB

_______________________________________________


Do you really need to ask whose money MB?

spike



From bbenzai at yahoo.com  Tue Nov 27 11:02:24 2012
From: bbenzai at yahoo.com (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2012 03:02:24 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ExI]  Rapture - NOT DRM-free
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1353931203.9260.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <1354014144.25009.YahooMailClassic@web114412.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> warned us:

> I got a new Kindle that only works on Sprint so I cannot
> registerer it
> in Europe. I added all my DRM-free Kindle books to the
> device, but of
> course I cannot add the DRMed ones. I am afraid that the
> version of
> Rapture sold by Amazon for Kindle has DRM. No big deal
> because I
> downloaded also the DRM-free version and added it to the new
> device,
> but I thought you should know.


Haha, I thought this post was about something else altogether!

Well, not entirely unrelated of course.  It's pretty certain that the singularity (if/when, etc..) won't be DRM-free.  I don't know if the book addresses this, but it certainly will be an important issue.

Ben Zaiboc



From gts_2000 at yahoo.com  Tue Nov 27 12:57:15 2012
From: gts_2000 at yahoo.com (Gordon)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2012 04:57:15 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ExI] Bad news for US customers of Intrade
In-Reply-To: <017501cdcc5c$bdea0320$39be0960$@att.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1211141939530.13627@tau.ceti.pl>
 <1353110725.8177.YahooMailNeo@web126203.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAPoR7a77TTQ_QJDZWXDDRHqbbcTg-hEq=553sKMonqedkBAz-w@mail.gmail.com>
 <1353279916.35742.YahooMailNeo@web126203.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAPoR7a4HAMTQHy9rHwfPjShL-N6Ai3Jq2NFht+d4GNhaUW03+Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <1353781201.73656.YahooMailNeo@web126206.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAPoR7a5d+Rq8aVD7E207iKfYaaMFBzz_jm5rc7zJZcWZ2GmQqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <48e21f01413554ff296857644886c7d1.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
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 <017501cdcc5c$bdea0320$39be0960$@att.net>
Message-ID: <1354021035.24963.YahooMailNeo@web121201.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

Government Crushes Innovative Online Prediction Market
http://www.foxbusiness.com/on-air/stossel/blog/2012/11/26/government-crushes-innovative-online-prediction-market
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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Tue Nov 27 13:22:20 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2012 14:22:20 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Vegetative patient free of pain
In-Reply-To: <017501cdcc5c$bdea0320$39be0960$@att.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1211141939530.13627@tau.ceti.pl>
 <1353110725.8177.YahooMailNeo@web126203.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAPoR7a77TTQ_QJDZWXDDRHqbbcTg-hEq=553sKMonqedkBAz-w@mail.gmail.com>
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 <2cefe2b9fbad9477f24afdcca08fd33b.squirrel@main.nc.us>
 <017501cdcc5c$bdea0320$39be0960$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a7vV2ZxgFsKx3K0rFa+XSX-djkgn0w4Q2+VtnqDf4=GqQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 27 November 2012 06:04, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> -----Original Message-----
> From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
> [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of MB
>
>>...*Demanding* social services be established (using whose money, pray
> tell?) ...MB
> _______________________________________________
>
> Do you really need to ask whose money MB?

I am with you two on that (why spending money to persuade people to
live?), but, hey, in theory the relevant services might be
self-financing or based on philanthropic contributions. :-)

Yet, It would remain IMHO a bad way to spend the relevant fraction of
the NGI of the country concerned.

-- 
Stefano Vaj


From atymes at gmail.com  Tue Nov 27 17:35:52 2012
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2012 09:35:52 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Bad news for US customers of Intrade
In-Reply-To: <1354021035.24963.YahooMailNeo@web121201.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1211141939530.13627@tau.ceti.pl>
 <1353110725.8177.YahooMailNeo@web126203.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAPoR7a77TTQ_QJDZWXDDRHqbbcTg-hEq=553sKMonqedkBAz-w@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CALAdGNQjTVS+HS+gRUj6fh8cm9jpVJxuqW=4HMHiWV7mMWAhCA@mail.gmail.com>

Yeah, but if you look at the court filing, Intrade really was doing
things that ran afoul of the regulated markets.  In particular,
prediction markets about the price of gold.

There are other prediction markets out there.

On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 4:57 AM, Gordon <gts_2000 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Government Crushes Innovative Online Prediction Market
> http://www.foxbusiness.com/on-air/stossel/blog/2012/11/26/government-crushes-innovative-online-prediction-market
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>


From spike66 at att.net  Tue Nov 27 18:19:36 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2012 10:19:36 -0800
Subject: [ExI] u.s. government slays intrade
Message-ID: <008601cdcccb$c2142560$463c7020$@att.net>

Say it ain't so:

 

http://www.foxbusiness.com/on-air/stossel/blog/2012/11/26/government-crushes
-innovative-online-prediction-market

 

spike

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From atymes at gmail.com  Tue Nov 27 18:41:41 2012
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2012 10:41:41 -0800
Subject: [ExI] u.s. government slays intrade
In-Reply-To: <008601cdcccb$c2142560$463c7020$@att.net>
References: <008601cdcccb$c2142560$463c7020$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNRYQV9bBJHCb9Nfvjw2BNWzLi7KKamEWjxW9mkzGNjDzA@mail.gmail.com>

Didn't Gordon *just* post this same link?  ;)

Again:

* Check the court filing - InTrade was getting into
previously-regulated markets, such as gold prices,
and trying to shuck the regulatory controls associated
with them without extensive lobbying or political
support.  That has predictable consequences.

* There are other prediction markets out there.

On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 10:19 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> Say it ain?t so:
>
>
>
> http://www.foxbusiness.com/on-air/stossel/blog/2012/11/26/government-crushes-innovative-online-prediction-market
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>



From spike66 at att.net  Tue Nov 27 21:34:27 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2012 13:34:27 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Bad news for US customers of Intrade
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNQjTVS+HS+gRUj6fh8cm9jpVJxuqW=4HMHiWV7mMWAhCA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1211141939530.13627@tau.ceti.pl>
 <1353110725.8177.YahooMailNeo@web126203.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAPoR7a77TTQ_QJDZWXDDRHqbbcTg-hEq=553sKMonqedkBAz-w@mail.gmail.com>
 <1353279916.35742.YahooMailNeo@web126203.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAPoR7a4HAMTQHy9rHwfPjShL-N6Ai3Jq2NFht+d4GNhaUW03+Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <1353781201.73656.YahooMailNeo@web126206.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAPoR7a5d+Rq8aVD7E207iKfYaaMFBzz_jm5rc7zJZcWZ2GmQqg@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <002401cdcce6$fa3d5400$eeb7fc00$@att.net>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes
Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2012 9:36 AM
To: ExI chat list
Subject: Re: [ExI] Bad news for US customers of Intrade

>...Yeah, but if you look at the court filing, Intrade really was doing
things that ran afoul of the regulated markets.  In particular, prediction
markets about the price of gold.

There are other prediction markets out there.

On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 4:57 AM, Gordon <gts_2000 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Government Crushes Innovative Online Prediction Market 
> http://www.foxbusiness.com/on-air/stossel/blog/2012/11/26/government-c
> rushes-innovative-online-prediction-market
>
>


Hmmm, I don't understand why gold is a regulated market, and even if so, why
it hurts anything to speculate on its future price through InTrade.  And if
gold is a regulated market, which other elements are regulated markets and
why?

spike



From atymes at gmail.com  Tue Nov 27 21:59:30 2012
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2012 13:59:30 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Bad news for US customers of Intrade
In-Reply-To: <002401cdcce6$fa3d5400$eeb7fc00$@att.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1211141939530.13627@tau.ceti.pl>
 <1353110725.8177.YahooMailNeo@web126203.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAPoR7a77TTQ_QJDZWXDDRHqbbcTg-hEq=553sKMonqedkBAz-w@mail.gmail.com>
 <1353279916.35742.YahooMailNeo@web126203.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAPoR7a4HAMTQHy9rHwfPjShL-N6Ai3Jq2NFht+d4GNhaUW03+Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <1353781201.73656.YahooMailNeo@web126206.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAPoR7a5d+Rq8aVD7E207iKfYaaMFBzz_jm5rc7zJZcWZ2GmQqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <48e21f01413554ff296857644886c7d1.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
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Message-ID: <CALAdGNQbDEGf+aLsP+h-mN1y-5d66WDKuHkW47pUbu8xV4TVQQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 1:34 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> Hmmm, I don't understand why gold is a regulated market, and even if so, why
> it hurts anything to speculate on its future price through InTrade.

Gold speculation is a matter of international commerce, and therefore
definitely "interstate commerce".  It's regulated to prevent the worst of
the swindlers and hucksters from profiting at the expense of others.

The specific regulation - Dodd-Frank - was also intended to curb the
effect of speculation on commodity prices, for instance after oil
speculators kept getting $billions by such market manipulation,
which costs were largely passed on by oil companies in the form of,
e.g., higher gas prices.


From spike66 at att.net  Tue Nov 27 23:59:10 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2012 15:59:10 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Bad news for US customers of Intrade
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNQbDEGf+aLsP+h-mN1y-5d66WDKuHkW47pUbu8xV4TVQQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1211141939530.13627@tau.ceti.pl>
 <1353110725.8177.YahooMailNeo@web126203.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAPoR7a77TTQ_QJDZWXDDRHqbbcTg-hEq=553sKMonqedkBAz-w@mail.gmail.com>
 <1353279916.35742.YahooMailNeo@web126203.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAPoR7a4HAMTQHy9rHwfPjShL-N6Ai3Jq2NFht+d4GNhaUW03+Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <1353781201.73656.YahooMailNeo@web126206.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAPoR7a5d+Rq8aVD7E207iKfYaaMFBzz_jm5rc7zJZcWZ2GmQqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <48e21f01413554ff296857644886c7d1.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
 <CAPoR7a6PThEz=1m+QybODpLpfgN_eipM-HRFWNgTWz3g6upoMQ@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CALAdGNQbDEGf+aLsP+h-mN1y-5d66WDKuHkW47pUbu8xV4TVQQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <004d01cdccfb$32591950$970b4bf0$@att.net>

>... On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes

>...The specific regulation - Dodd-Frank - was also intended to curb the
effect of speculation on commodity prices, for instance after oil
speculators kept getting $billions by such market manipulation, which costs
were largely passed on by oil companies in the form of, e.g., higher gas
prices.
_______________________________________________


OK so let us ignore for the moment the propriety of governments interfering
in oil speculation, and apply the logic to their control of gold prices.
Speculators are driving up the price of gold.  Are we to assume this is a
bad thing?  Why?  It seems to me like it is a good thing if the price of
gold is speculated way up, for the amount of gold is what it is.  If its
price is artificially sent way up, then we create money.  Perhaps
governments want to keep that capability to themselves.  But governments
hold huge reserves of gold, so they would benefit from speculators driving
up the price.

I see this as an unintended consequence of regulations like Dodd-Frank.  I
don't see how it is legitimate for any government to restrict its citizens
from betting on the future price of an element, or any other natural
resource.  If gold, why not silver?  And platinum?  Aluminum?  Iron?

Back to oil speculation, if speculators were sending the price of oil
upward, I see this as mostly a positive thing: higher oil prices encourage
the market to invest in oil alternative technologies, which even if not
currently profitable, are at least interesting from an engineering point of
view.  Furthermore the higher oil prices have environmental and safety
benefits: it encourages people to buy smaller and lighter cars, which
reduces emissions and reduces the risk to me if the drunken proles collide
with Mister Lincoln.  It reduces the traffic on the roads as well.  

If speculators are able to make a ton of money on oil, then it concentrates
money into fewer hands, which also has its benefits: they invest that money
into stuff that changes the world for the better, creates jobs and so forth.

Regarding InTrade, that form of speculation does not influence the price of
any commodity.  It is a zero sum game, where speculators play against each
other.  I see no harm in this, but I see harm in the government deciding it
has the authority to control it.

spike



From mrjones2020 at gmail.com  Wed Nov 28 00:21:51 2012
From: mrjones2020 at gmail.com (J.R. Jones)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2012 19:21:51 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Bad news for US customers of Intrade
In-Reply-To: <004d01cdccfb$32591950$970b4bf0$@att.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1211141939530.13627@tau.ceti.pl>
 <1353110725.8177.YahooMailNeo@web126203.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAPoR7a77TTQ_QJDZWXDDRHqbbcTg-hEq=553sKMonqedkBAz-w@mail.gmail.com>
 <1353279916.35742.YahooMailNeo@web126203.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAPoR7a4HAMTQHy9rHwfPjShL-N6Ai3Jq2NFht+d4GNhaUW03+Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <1353781201.73656.YahooMailNeo@web126206.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAPoR7a5d+Rq8aVD7E207iKfYaaMFBzz_jm5rc7zJZcWZ2GmQqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <48e21f01413554ff296857644886c7d1.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
 <CAPoR7a6PThEz=1m+QybODpLpfgN_eipM-HRFWNgTWz3g6upoMQ@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CALAdGNQbDEGf+aLsP+h-mN1y-5d66WDKuHkW47pUbu8xV4TVQQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <004d01cdccfb$32591950$970b4bf0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CADDVf2Lv7ybFo_UmDs0LHFSn0jVSMfEs6Zc+YPcNbcLZdM518w@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 6:59 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

> If speculators are able to make a ton of money on oil, then it concentrates
> money into fewer hands, which also has its benefits: they invest that money
> into stuff that changes the world for the better, creates jobs and so
> forth.
>


Talk about speculation.  ;)
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From atymes at gmail.com  Wed Nov 28 01:51:22 2012
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2012 17:51:22 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Bad news for US customers of Intrade
In-Reply-To: <004d01cdccfb$32591950$970b4bf0$@att.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1211141939530.13627@tau.ceti.pl>
 <1353110725.8177.YahooMailNeo@web126203.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAPoR7a77TTQ_QJDZWXDDRHqbbcTg-hEq=553sKMonqedkBAz-w@mail.gmail.com>
 <1353279916.35742.YahooMailNeo@web126203.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAPoR7a4HAMTQHy9rHwfPjShL-N6Ai3Jq2NFht+d4GNhaUW03+Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <1353781201.73656.YahooMailNeo@web126206.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAPoR7a5d+Rq8aVD7E207iKfYaaMFBzz_jm5rc7zJZcWZ2GmQqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <48e21f01413554ff296857644886c7d1.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
 <CAPoR7a6PThEz=1m+QybODpLpfgN_eipM-HRFWNgTWz3g6upoMQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <2cefe2b9fbad9477f24afdcca08fd33b.squirrel@main.nc.us>
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Message-ID: <CALAdGNSWpf6x5EfpD=Lqgn_YzCLw59jcd_UdxNWR2xd3+Dgg5A@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 3:59 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> OK so let us ignore for the moment the propriety of governments interfering
> in oil speculation, and apply the logic to their control of gold prices.
> Speculators are driving up the price of gold.  Are we to assume this is a
> bad thing?  Why?  It seems to me like it is a good thing if the price of
> gold is speculated way up, for the amount of gold is what it is.  If its
> price is artificially sent way up, then we create money.  Perhaps
> governments want to keep that capability to themselves.  But governments
> hold huge reserves of gold, so they would benefit from speculators driving
> up the price.

Note that for every up, there's a down.  If up is good, down is bad - and
one can presume they ran into the bad at some point.

> Back to oil speculation, if speculators were sending the price of oil
> upward, I see this as mostly a positive thing: higher oil prices encourage
> the market to invest in oil alternative technologies, which even if not
> currently profitable, are at least interesting from an engineering point of
> view.  Furthermore the higher oil prices have environmental and safety
> benefits: it encourages people to buy smaller and lighter cars, which
> reduces emissions and reduces the risk to me if the drunken proles collide
> with Mister Lincoln.  It reduces the traffic on the roads as well.

This is all true, but it inflicts immediate, unescapable economic pain
on the average consumer, with an easy-to-trace cause.  This is a
Bad Thing, given the current government structure, and is therefore
fixed.

> If speculators are able to make a ton of money on oil, then it concentrates
> money into fewer hands, which also has its benefits: they invest that money
> into stuff that changes the world for the better, creates jobs and so forth.

In theory.  In practice, this doesn't happen so much.

> Regarding InTrade, that form of speculation does not influence the price of
> any commodity.  It is a zero sum game, where speculators play against each
> other.

Actually, it can.  If enough people bet on the price going down, then
there's a market to be made by tapping reserves to flood the market
with excess supply.  This happens often enough with the regular
markets; there is no reason to believe it wouldn't happen here either,
if enough volume was transacted.


From agrimes at speakeasy.net  Wed Nov 28 01:10:44 2012
From: agrimes at speakeasy.net (Alan Grimes)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2012 20:10:44 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Bad news for US customers of Intrade
In-Reply-To: <004d01cdccfb$32591950$970b4bf0$@att.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1211141939530.13627@tau.ceti.pl>
 <1353110725.8177.YahooMailNeo@web126203.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAPoR7a77TTQ_QJDZWXDDRHqbbcTg-hEq=553sKMonqedkBAz-w@mail.gmail.com>
 <1353279916.35742.YahooMailNeo@web126203.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAPoR7a4HAMTQHy9rHwfPjShL-N6Ai3Jq2NFht+d4GNhaUW03+Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <1353781201.73656.YahooMailNeo@web126206.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAPoR7a5d+Rq8aVD7E207iKfYaaMFBzz_jm5rc7zJZcWZ2GmQqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <48e21f01413554ff296857644886c7d1.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
 <CAPoR7a6PThEz=1m+QybODpLpfgN_eipM-HRFWNgTWz3g6upoMQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <2cefe2b9fbad9477f24afdcca08fd33b.squirrel@main.nc.us>
 <017501cdcc5c$bdea0320$39be0960$@att.net>
 <1354021035.24963.YahooMailNeo@web121201.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CALAdGNQjTVS+HS+gRUj6fh8cm9jpVJxuqW=4HMHiWV7mMWAhCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <002401cdcce6$fa3d5400$eeb7fc00$@att.net>
 <CALAdGNQbDEGf+aLsP+h-mN1y-5d66WDKuHkW47pUbu8xV4TVQQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <004d01cdccfb$32591950$970b4bf0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <50B56494.2050807@speakeasy.net>

spike wrote:
>> ... On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes
>
>> ...The specific regulation - Dodd-Frank - was also intended to curb the
> effect of speculation on commodity prices, for instance after oil
> speculators kept getting $billions by such market manipulation, which costs
> were largely passed on by oil companies in the form of, e.g., higher gas
> prices.
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> OK so let us ignore for the moment the propriety of governments interfering
> in oil speculation, and apply the logic to their control of gold prices.
> Speculators are driving up the price of gold.  Are we to assume this is a
> bad thing?  Why?  It seems to me like it is a good thing if the price of
> gold is speculated way up, for the amount of gold is what it is.  If its
> price is artificially sent way up, then we create money.  Perhaps
> governments want to keep that capability to themselves.  But governments
> hold huge reserves of gold, so they would benefit from speculators driving
> up the price.

The government reserves for itself the power to manipulate the price of 
gold for the purpose of obscuring the effects of inflation as the US 
dollar moves into the terminal phase of its inevitable collapse. (Yes, 
the dollar was intended to collapse at around this time beginning 99 
years ago, btw, when is the federal reserve act up for renewal?)



-- 
E T F
N H E
D E D

Powers are not rights.



From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Wed Nov 28 08:39:58 2012
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2012 03:39:58 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Bad news for US customers of Intrade
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNQbDEGf+aLsP+h-mN1y-5d66WDKuHkW47pUbu8xV4TVQQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1211141939530.13627@tau.ceti.pl>
 <1353110725.8177.YahooMailNeo@web126203.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAPoR7a77TTQ_QJDZWXDDRHqbbcTg-hEq=553sKMonqedkBAz-w@mail.gmail.com>
 <1353279916.35742.YahooMailNeo@web126203.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAPoR7a4HAMTQHy9rHwfPjShL-N6Ai3Jq2NFht+d4GNhaUW03+Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <1353781201.73656.YahooMailNeo@web126206.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAPoR7a5d+Rq8aVD7E207iKfYaaMFBzz_jm5rc7zJZcWZ2GmQqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <48e21f01413554ff296857644886c7d1.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
 <CAPoR7a6PThEz=1m+QybODpLpfgN_eipM-HRFWNgTWz3g6upoMQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <2cefe2b9fbad9477f24afdcca08fd33b.squirrel@main.nc.us>
 <017501cdcc5c$bdea0320$39be0960$@att.net>
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 <CALAdGNQjTVS+HS+gRUj6fh8cm9jpVJxuqW=4HMHiWV7mMWAhCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <002401cdcce6$fa3d5400$eeb7fc00$@att.net>
 <CALAdGNQbDEGf+aLsP+h-mN1y-5d66WDKuHkW47pUbu8xV4TVQQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAAc1gFjATBOzUvWynR-=wf9K+AjGk7STZY_v0=K_Xa02y8Pabw@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 4:59 PM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 1:34 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>> Hmmm, I don't understand why gold is a regulated market, and even if so, why
>> it hurts anything to speculate on its future price through InTrade.
>
> Gold speculation is a matter of international commerce, and therefore
> definitely "interstate commerce".  It's regulated to prevent the worst of
> the swindlers and hucksters from profiting at the expense of others.
>
> The specific regulation - Dodd-Frank - was also intended to curb the
> effect of speculation on commodity prices, for instance after oil
> speculators kept getting $billions by such market manipulation,
> which costs were largely passed on by oil companies in the form of,
> e.g., higher gas prices.

### I have a question - do you approve of these regulations?

Rafal


From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Wed Nov 28 09:56:24 2012
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2012 04:56:24 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Conscientious objections
In-Reply-To: <50A7822D.7060800@aleph.se>
References: <CAAc1gFizs0+k6D9-YAERqNF1tUb_eZ0ft6Q3WhQ3cKqpcVQq9Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQ3oZrwp7HXn4Ed2V+mLp+PBqJyR8ZVWgi7AHhJDF81dQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJX-7wXqZSkG-cnNZY1oNiHB06Pan9a2i0AJhN5XOdjXxF5FZA@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CALAdGNT3kyFw2+m9K5kE1DtEUMMepszEiGj32cB4uvX1gbRt5A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFjeq=mfELaOxk75+oZNFrwxKd19-RyvyHKaZbgvtSCYhg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRLfn1T-KS5LCooYL7tV-i1Y9vpWvGRxhY3-jsq-JSyVA@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CAJX-7wX43pOUrZDybJzDC9jM-We-CtB3FioVOLatKeMEv=RVkw@mail.gmail.com>
 <50A7822D.7060800@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <CAAc1gFjOooW-s7+DH=cUUv_kDWYXekiOnfDeE3JWgBdBVSoLXA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Nov 17, 2012 at 7:25 AM, Anders Sandberg <anders at aleph.se> wrote:
> On 17/11/2012 09:16, Max More wrote:

>> I do think (contrary to my younger self) that some collective goods and
>> free rider problems cannot be solved TODAY and so cannot call myself a true
>> libertarian, but I remain supportive of that as an ideal and hold out hope
>> that we can eventually make that an achievable form of society. In the
>> meantime, certainly we could move a huge distance in that direction.
>
>
> Libertarianism as the limit as technology makes the world as low-friction
> and rational as possible? Hmm, limit libertarianism has a nice assonance.

### Exactly! (to both Max and Anders) There are various technical
pre-conditions for the realization of any complex system - our
ancestors could not progress from small tribe organization to a large
ancient theocracy without first inventing granaries, script and other
technologies. Furthermore, their natural hunter-gatherer predilections
had to be adjusted (usually in a very brutal selection process) to
allow existence in a hierarchy, with meek acceptance of dominance
unthinkable in a primitive tribe - this is what Robin has been writing
a lot on his blog. So progress or change in a society is likely to
require multiple and frequently non-obvious adaptations, both in terms
of human knowledge and in human desires.

I envision anarcho-capitalism as a system that explicitly proscribes
territorial power monopoly while using non-violent market interactions
between humans as the primary means of organizing human society. "The
Market" means simply non-communal, supply-and-demand interactions
between consenting participants, usually with a system of prices. Most
humans are communitarian, violent towards out-groups, and dislike the
use of explicit prices within the in-group. I see these traits as
leftovers from the stone age - but inveighing against reality does not
change it. For now it is impossible to build a stable, large-scale
ancap society.

I do believe that anarcho-capitalism or limit libertarianism is the
best possible social system for any self-replicating sentients, and
this means us, humans. (As a side-note, sentients designed and made by
a central authority may of course have completely different social
optima). "Limit libertarianism" is actually a very good term -
sufficiently cryptic and yet easily comprehensible once explained. It
also conveys the meaning very well: a system designed for maximally
efficient (i.e at the limit of possibility) fulfillment of individual
desires. Plus it does not contain references to two of many people's
most hated or feared social conditions.

More importantly, the notion of limit libertarianism provides a
direction, a theoretical goal to move towards. Whether the system can
be actually implemented today or even in the easily-conceivable future
is not as important - what matters is that any change that brings us
closer to that asymptotic limit is a form of social progress,
predicated perhaps on technological development, or on
learning/modification of individual humans and human institutions.
When discussing this notion with others we do not need to explain the
yet-impossible - but we can analyze the incremental change towards the
goal, explain that each step is beneficial and that limiting
communitarianism and violence while expanding the scope of trade is
the very soul of progress. We don't have to hem and haw when accused
of being utopians - we can boldly proclaim we intend to go the the
very limit (and then maybe beyond)!

OK, so from now on I will say to all and sundry that I am a "limit
libertarian" and see where the conversation goes.

Rafal


From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Wed Nov 28 10:02:02 2012
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2012 05:02:02 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Conscientious objections
In-Reply-To: <1353103728.91925.YahooMailNeo@web126205.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <CAAc1gFizs0+k6D9-YAERqNF1tUb_eZ0ft6Q3WhQ3cKqpcVQq9Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQ3oZrwp7HXn4Ed2V+mLp+PBqJyR8ZVWgi7AHhJDF81dQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJX-7wXqZSkG-cnNZY1oNiHB06Pan9a2i0AJhN5XOdjXxF5FZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a7m-chwTUSV+7824gTZrCBYZj6XzeGnQse2740qjSwQ1g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQyUCjibTNEcaguy0zFR=TSvD555=H2WziWk81xGwtv5g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJX-7wUbznHOre+Eyxji_OgX-JmuHSXQxdON8TLTOkE+0uGT8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNT3kyFw2+m9K5kE1DtEUMMepszEiGj32cB4uvX1gbRt5A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFjeq=mfELaOxk75+oZNFrwxKd19-RyvyHKaZbgvtSCYhg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRLfn1T-KS5LCooYL7tV-i1Y9vpWvGRxhY3-jsq-JSyVA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1353103728.91925.YahooMailNeo@web126205.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAAc1gFi+M_OAQkbn_rGRcgBh1LhyaJC=KrB+R3n_z3PWH8_GBQ@mail.gmail.com>

Dan - thanks for taking apart Adrian's takedown. I couldn't have done better.

Rafal

On Fri, Nov 16, 2012 at 5:08 PM, Dan <dan_ust at yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Thursday, November 15, 2012 12:45 PM Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 8:34 PM, Rafal Smigrodzki <rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Using the
>>> notion of externality here is also inappropriate: If you look at the
>>> usual meaning of this term in economic literature, it applies to costs
>>> or benefits of trade not transmitted through prices, or affecting
>>> persons other than the buyer and seller directly involved in the
>>> trade.
>>
>> You drive on roads that I have paid for, in an area where the
>> closest thing to an armed robber (taxes) is something you can
>> plan for, and is based primarily on how much money you have
>> mooched off other people (likely in exchange for services
>> rendered, but if taxes and armed robbery are morally identical,
>> the same comparison holds between not offering your services
>> for free and outright helping yourself to others' property).  You
>> can not avoid taking advantage of these things my money
>> helped pay for, so long as you are within the United States.
>
> This argument doesn't hold water for several reasons. First of all, for a case for an externality to work in a consistent fashion, one has to have a clear definition of property. That runs up against problems with public property. Anyhow, with no clear definition of who owns what, then any argument that something is an externality explodes.
>
>
> Second, Rafal is also forced to pay taxes and the like. It's not like the government leaves him alone and he decides to use the roads and the like. So, in so much as you think he owes others for this, he owes them. But given that there is force involved in funding these things, someone using them is not really stealing as such. That's just the make believe logic of democratic government: that you own the state, therefore, people who use the state's stuff are using your stuff. That works to keep people focused not on state aggression but on people who protest it.
>
> But even allowing that you own the state -- or that you and the rest of the subjects of the state own it -- since Rafal is one of the subjects he owns it as much as you. Again, the argument falls apart.
>
>
> Third, not voting doesn't really change his tax position. People who don't vote still have to pay taxes, last I checked. Not voting -- even not registering to vote -- does not in the US or any nation I know of mean one can avoid taxes. If it does, please let me know quickly so that I can contact the tax authorities in several nations for a big refund.
>
> Fourth, it's hard to measure who uses what, so comparing this to a market exchange, where people pay for specific things or services (and can choose to opt out), doesn't make sense. Taxes (and deficits, which are always going to be some of future, and inflation, which is not a only a sort of future tax, but is spread across the economy in ways hard to predict) are very unlike market transactions because there is no opting out.
>
> And please don't go on about being able to leave the country. That is just like saying I can leave when a robber invades my house. If you're going to accept that logic, then you're arguing for might makes right at every turn. This all allows the state to make the rules here, where the thing I believe Rafal is arguing -- and if he isn't arguing I am arguing it -- is that state (or any state anywhere) has no just claim over him or even over the people, territories, and wealth it controls. Thus, it is just like the robber invading someone's home: it has no right to be there and can't make any just claim for others to leave simply because it's there.
>
>
>> Therefore, if you want to cease your obligation to me, the only
>> practical choice is to leave the United States.  Otherwise,
>> there most certainly is an externality.
>
> He doesn't have an obligation here to you -- nor you to him. Obligations, by definition, have to be by expressed consented to. They can't be presumed, but must be openly agreed to, which means that there has to be a way to disagree to them -- and not something like, "He agrees that I'm king over him because he hasn't moved to Antarctica leaving all his worldly positions with me. So, there it is, I'm king!" That's the nature of an obligation. If you don't accept that, then obligation becomes a vague concept that's merely what someone else feels yet another person owes her or him. (And if you're going to bite the bullet on that one, well, then obligation becomes useless: you see this as a valid obligation, but Rafal doesn't and that's that.)
>
>> Now of course it is impractical for you, me, and everyone else
>> to directly decide all of these issues, on a scale of the entire
>> United States.  So there is a set of people - the "government" -
>> elected (or appointed by the elected, or appointed by the
>> appointees of the elected, but all ultimately responsible to the
>> electorate - that is, to all of us) to handle these matters.  Your
>> part is to vote, to formally register your preference alongside
>> mine in how these things should be handled.
>
> That's the grade school civics view of why we have rulers. The truth, however, is people make all kinds of complicated decisions all the times and they do so voluntarily. (And even in cases where they do use experts or specialists, this is done voluntarily and they retain the right to not use them on an individual basis. For instance, I choose my auto mechanic. There is no election of a board to choose one for me.) The argument from complexity is a nonstarter. In fact, some of the most complicated things, such as how scientific theories are created, tested, and promulgated come about through a voluntary process of individuals freely interacting. Scientists don't elect representatives to decide which theories are valid and which should be set aside. Yet complicated scientific theories are somehow invented, tested, refined, and spread (or rejected). How's that possible?
>
> Well, it's a complicated issue, but it seems that it's a much similar process to how many other spontaneous orders work, including markets, language, and evolution. The fatal conceit here is to think a few experts or some politicians can do better and should trump the millions of individuals making choices for themselves. (In fact, one is reminded of a certain politician making a speech about a certain now bankrupt solar cell maker is just a humorous example of how good politicians are at picking winners.)
>
> And were your argument true -- that some choices are so complicated and that somehow electing a tiny number of people to make them worked better than the alternatives -- why it should be applied more widely. We should comprehensive economic planning just like in the Soviet Union. The economy, after all, shouldn't be left to hundreds of millions of people who know so little and can make all sorts of bad decisions impacting the rest of the world. We should go back to arranged marriages -- marriage is, after all, a very complicated decision that impacts so many others. We should have elected officials or expert panels deciding what careers people can get on track for -- so as not to waste all that effort of schooling and training the wrong people for the wrong job only to have them work in another field or have to be retrained. And complicated things like scientific theories should be brought under some sort of national or international planning. We
>  wouldn't want, say, people just dreaming up any theory and wasting valuable resources that should only go to theories approved by those in power.
>
>
>> The "but my vote doesn't count" argument only holds true if
>> you only look at yourself.  If ten million people believe that and
>> use that reason to not vote, when they would otherwise have
>> voted third party - well, if they had voted, people would not have
>> as strong a perception that third parties are nonviable, would
>> they?  You can lead by example - vote, and that may inspire
>> those who believe as you do to likewise vote.
>
> The same reasoning might be used to say you should spend your money on this product or you should invest in that stock: if ten million people did the same as you, think what would happen? But Rafal was only speaking for himself. He was talking about and justifying why he acted the way he did -- not asking what would happen if ten million others did the same. To be sure, if far more people didn't vote, that would actually lead to the whole political system being seen as much less legitimate. And if they all argued the same way Rafal did, then it would be very hard for the system to continue to function as it does now. In fact, any real world government, even the traditionally despotic one, depends on most people going along with and only a tiny number ever challenging its authority. If most people don't go along, well, it's obvious what would happen: the state will basically fall apart. But even if most people acquiesce but a large minority -- and it does
>  not have to be 49%; my guess is 5% or maybe 10% -- challenges it, it's days are also numbered. No real world state has a large enough police force or enough prison cells to handle that. (And the genocidal solution is mostly off the table, thankfully.) In such cases, the state would either fall or have to negotiate something, maybe allowing a secession (as with the former Soviet Union) or maybe limiting itself (as with many protest movements throughout history).
>
> Also, there's another problem here. If Rafal is an anarchist, then why should be vote at all? He would be morally against voting and it might be, on that account, wrong to participate in a process he's against. (One might even argue, contra you, that him voting would be hypocritical.) In such a case, there would be no third party that would satisfy him by definition. (This is basically my position too: I don't want anyone to be president. It's not that I want someone other than the two major party dudes. And, yeah, that's a hard sell for most people, but I don't think going into a voting booth is going to make it any easier and will, in all likelihood, make it much more difficult.)
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Dan
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat



From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Wed Nov 28 15:22:39 2012
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2012 07:22:39 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Reaction Engine's press release on the precooler heat
	exchanger
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB4nMLmHGHCJB_P4AaXuF_1RAtM0jCs-cXry9JTaKA0AYA@mail.gmail.com>

This may not seem like a really big deal, but it is a major key (along
with laser propulsion) to low cost access to space.

https://docs.google.com/open?id=1mkaWbVjvEW-BSXZtGywYs73AsAhhKe0ZKyf3ejRuxeOyAZ-8beFAeiTgzBZN

It is one of two elements that makes low cost power satellites possible.

Keith


From atymes at gmail.com  Wed Nov 28 16:13:53 2012
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2012 08:13:53 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Conscientious objections
In-Reply-To: <CAAc1gFi+M_OAQkbn_rGRcgBh1LhyaJC=KrB+R3n_z3PWH8_GBQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAc1gFizs0+k6D9-YAERqNF1tUb_eZ0ft6Q3WhQ3cKqpcVQq9Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQ3oZrwp7HXn4Ed2V+mLp+PBqJyR8ZVWgi7AHhJDF81dQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJX-7wXqZSkG-cnNZY1oNiHB06Pan9a2i0AJhN5XOdjXxF5FZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a7m-chwTUSV+7824gTZrCBYZj6XzeGnQse2740qjSwQ1g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQyUCjibTNEcaguy0zFR=TSvD555=H2WziWk81xGwtv5g@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CALAdGNT3kyFw2+m9K5kE1DtEUMMepszEiGj32cB4uvX1gbRt5A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFjeq=mfELaOxk75+oZNFrwxKd19-RyvyHKaZbgvtSCYhg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRLfn1T-KS5LCooYL7tV-i1Y9vpWvGRxhY3-jsq-JSyVA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1353103728.91925.YahooMailNeo@web126205.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
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Message-ID: <CALAdGNQZTTEBP3qbkTQmX_fDt1SXZbpcYb=4JLvqeP7brCTLfQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Nov 28, 2012 at 2:02 AM, Rafal Smigrodzki
<rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com> wrote:
> Dan - thanks for taking apart Adrian's takedown. I couldn't have done better.

Pff.  His "taking apart" wasn't worth a lengthy response.
It falls apart on its own if you look at it rationally.


From atymes at gmail.com  Wed Nov 28 16:42:44 2012
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2012 08:42:44 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Bad news for US customers of Intrade
In-Reply-To: <CAAc1gFjATBOzUvWynR-=wf9K+AjGk7STZY_v0=K_Xa02y8Pabw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1211141939530.13627@tau.ceti.pl>
 <1353110725.8177.YahooMailNeo@web126203.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAPoR7a77TTQ_QJDZWXDDRHqbbcTg-hEq=553sKMonqedkBAz-w@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CAPoR7a4HAMTQHy9rHwfPjShL-N6Ai3Jq2NFht+d4GNhaUW03+Q@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CAPoR7a5d+Rq8aVD7E207iKfYaaMFBzz_jm5rc7zJZcWZ2GmQqg@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CALAdGNQcQOegZLVx0FSU9So4nOmtvX2i5viQiWxt9ULP0KBUpg@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Nov 28, 2012 at 12:39 AM, Rafal Smigrodzki
<rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 4:59 PM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:
>> The specific regulation - Dodd-Frank - was also intended to curb the
>> effect of speculation on commodity prices, for instance after oil
>> speculators kept getting $billions by such market manipulation,
>> which costs were largely passed on by oil companies in the form of,
>> e.g., higher gas prices.
>
> ### I have a question - do you approve of these regulations?

I think they do more good than harm, especially for their intended
purpose, but like most complex regulations, they are imperfect and
have some corrupt loopholes.

But for example, it created the Financial Stability Oversight Council
and the Office of Financial Research, who might be quite willing to
listen to our speculations on existential risk and perhaps promote
our advice as policy, so long as we phrase things to them in a
financial context.  For instance, if we can point out the impact of
increasing life expectancy on the US financial system, and point
out that radical life extension would greatly increase the number of
players who would be aware of the problems of risky financial
endeavors (having been burned themselves) and act as a natural
counter, they may well promote it.  Note that their emphasis is on
risk identification and reduction, so it would behoove one of us with
credentials (i.e., someone they'll listen to) to talk them into adopting
the proactionary principle instead of the precautionary.

But mostly it just tries to get big banks to do the jobs they promised
to do, rather than gambling all the money they've been trusted with.
That, on the balance, does more good than harm.


From frankmac at ripco.com  Wed Nov 28 17:55:09 2012
From: frankmac at ripco.com (frank mcelligott)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2012 10:55:09 -0700
Subject: [ExI] in honor to cyber week:)
Message-ID: <D23D3807477B4CC0ADF9029725E0C86C@owner719038df5>

Hello;

Came across this from another list, might be interesting as it call for the end of mankind due to machines producing other machines,
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/11/26/new_centre_human_extinction_risks/

Frank
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From dan_ust at yahoo.com  Thu Nov 29 06:45:27 2012
From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2012 22:45:27 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ExI] Conscientious objections
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNQZTTEBP3qbkTQmX_fDt1SXZbpcYb=4JLvqeP7brCTLfQ@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <1354171527.10986.YahooMailNeo@web126206.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

On Wednesday, November 28, 2012 11:13 AM Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Wed, Nov 28, 2012 at 2:02 AM, Rafal Smigrodzki <rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Dan - thanks for taking apart Adrian's takedown. I couldn't have done better.
>
> Pff.? His "taking apart" wasn't worth a lengthy response.
> It falls apart on its own if you look at it rationally.


It would be good if you would humor us and reveal how my response "fall apart on its own." I believe, and I'm not trying to attack or insult you, you've taken a very dismissive approach toward the views of Rafal and now me (and, presumably, of others here who happen to agree with him or me, such as Max). This is not how one goes about rationally discussing much less refuting an argument.


Regards,

Dan




From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Thu Nov 29 08:19:20 2012
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2012 03:19:20 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Bad news for US customers of Intrade
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNQcQOegZLVx0FSU9So4nOmtvX2i5viQiWxt9ULP0KBUpg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1211141939530.13627@tau.ceti.pl>
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Message-ID: <CAAc1gFh9FZyB+nXN-GYM53fYj5JNRaRyThBAEU1sTF+dAx9ydQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Nov 28, 2012 at 11:42 AM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 28, 2012 at 12:39 AM, Rafal Smigrodzki

>>
>> ### I have a question - do you approve of these regulations?
>
> I think they do more good than harm, especially for their intended
> purpose, but like most complex regulations, they are imperfect and
> have some corrupt loopholes.

### Ah, well, this helps me understand your position on my voting
preferences. Believing that Frank-Dodd does more good than harm is a
part of a more general pattern - you expect individual lives to be
controlled by representatives of the community (for which you
substitute functionaries of the government), i.e. your set of opinions
seems to imply you see the community as ascendant over each and every
individual.

Rafal


From atymes at gmail.com  Thu Nov 29 09:27:59 2012
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2012 01:27:59 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Conscientious objections
In-Reply-To: <1354171527.10986.YahooMailNeo@web126206.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <CAAc1gFizs0+k6D9-YAERqNF1tUb_eZ0ft6Q3WhQ3cKqpcVQq9Q@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CALAdGNTN+O4J_=H1TaAtryGcroTCcb15kmW=BnmZ8beYbDT_mA@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Nov 28, 2012 at 10:45 PM, Dan <dan_ust at yahoo.com> wrote:
> It would be good if you would humor us and reveal how my response "fall apart on its own." I believe, and I'm not trying to attack or insult you, you've taken a very dismissive approach toward the views of Rafal and now me

Because you kept redefining things, making false claims, and resorting
to logical fallacies.

I take a dim view of extensive debates under such circumstances,
because they are largely pointless.  Any argument I make, you simply
use more fallacies et al, and claim supremacy because you have more
people talking.  The only people I can convince are those not
involved, who tend to be convinced if I make one or a few posts
succinctly stating my case.  This is regardless of how many people
oppose me or the volume of counter-argument they file.  Responding at
length is thus usually a waste of my time.

But since you asked nicely, I'll take a stab at this.

Note first, though: the sheer length of your reply fell into
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_by_verbosity which is what signaled
to me that a detailed reply was probably a waste of time.  Note that
my point-by-point responses here are mostly shorter.  Of course, this
itself is not proof, just a heuristic.

---

> First of all, for a case for an externality to work in a consistent fashion, one has to have a clear definition of property. That runs up against problems with public property. Anyhow, with no clear definition of who owns what, then any argument that something is an externality explodes.

By this argument, if I own my house, but it's not clear who owns the
land it sits on (say, because the land itself is public property),
then if a bunch of people contribute to the soil eroding (say, through
mining underneath and not shoring up the tunnels, or through
desertification) such that part of the earth under my house goes away
and my house falls apart, that can't be called an externality even
though something that I did clearly own took damage.

Just because a thing is difficult to trace and place exact blame for,
does not mean it does not exist.

> That's just the make believe logic of democratic government: that you own the state, therefore, people who use the state's stuff are using your stuff. That works to keep people focused not on state aggression but on people who protest it.

Ad hominem fallacy.

> But even allowing that you own the state -- or that you and the rest of the subjects of the state own it -- since Rafal is one of the subjects he owns it as much as you.

If he owns it, then it is his duty to attempt to control it.  To do
otherwise is negligence.  That he is part owner along with hundreds of
millions of others does not fundamentally change this, although it
does dramatically minimize the degree of negligence.  (It's kind of a
"micro-sin" - but a moral value of -0.000001 is still less than 0.)

> Third, not voting doesn't really change his tax position.

Irrelevant.  The subject at hand was the duty to vote, and I had noted
that he is helping decide how *my* taxes were spent.  If he does not
care how *his* taxes are spent, that is a different thing.  That it is
almost impossible to trace my specific contribution versus his does
not change this.

> Fourth, it's hard to measure who uses what

This has the same problem as the externality rebuttal.  Just because a
thing is hard to measure does not mean it does not exist, nor that it
is irrelevant.

> And please don't go on about being able to leave the country. That is just like saying I can leave when a robber invades my house.

False.  A robber does not enter your house at times you are well aware
of, nor (for the most part) can you calculate well in advance how much
the robber will take and budget for it.  It is often the case that, at
the moment a robber enters your house - assuming you are present -
that it would be highly disruptive, perhaps life-threatening, to leave
your house at that moment.

To the degree that it would be highly disruptive, perhaps
life-threatening, to leave the country - guess what?  That's because
the world at large inherently* imposes an unjust taking on you, me,
and everyone we personally know just for existing.  This particular
nation deals with it to a substantial degree, but imposes certain
things - such as taxes, and a moral obligation to vote - in return.
Since there is no way to live within this nation for long and not
benefit from this protection, these are imposed on all who live within
this nation for long.  The choice to opt out therefore boils down to
the choice to leave the nation's physical territory.

It is perhaps unfair and not right.  That does not change the fact that it is.

* Or if you prefer, by a large collection of individuals within the
world - those who would have us as slaves for not being in their
monkeyspaces, or as sacrifices to their God.  The point is that this
is being imposed on us.

(There's also the false moral equivalence between taxes and robbery -
but that's been debunked thoroughly by others, and does not need to be
proven to show that there exists substantial differences of other
kinds between robbery and taxes.)

> He doesn't have an obligation here to you -- nor you to him. Obligations, by definition, have to be by expressed consented to. They can't be presumed, but must be openly agreed to, which means that there has to be a way to disagree to them -- and not something like, "He agrees that I'm king over him because he hasn't moved to Antarctica leaving all his worldly positions with me. So, there it is, I'm king!"

The problem comes with the definition of "obligation".  I'm talking
about things that are not imposed by mere words.

Let us say, for example, that you and I were together at a street
corner, and zombies began attacking.  As it happens, between the two
of us at the time, I have the only gun.  The only way to defend myself
is by creating a situation where you are protected as well.  Of course
I'm going to defend myself - and you benefit from my protection.  This
is true even if you never agreed to be protected.

At some point I run out of ammunition, but you have some.  I take it
so I can continue defending us - without asking you, because I have no
time to ask and wait for your response.  Thanks to that extra
ammunition, the zombies are defeated.

Did you have an "obligation" to help me protect you?  Did I "steal"
your bullets?  If I steal, it was in order to save my own life, so was
I morally wrong to do so?

Now, what if I could cure one of the zombies instead of killing them?
Let us say one of your loved ones was among the zombies.  Would you
have an "obligation" to at least tell me which one you would prefer to
be cured?

I'll admit the analogy is imperfect, but this does start to address
the difference between the situation you claim - where only words
matter - and reality.

> Scientists don't elect representatives to decide which theories are valid and which should be set aside. Yet complicated scientific theories are somehow invented, tested, refined, and spread (or rejected). How's that possible?
>
> Well, it's a complicated issue, but it seems that it's a much similar process to how many other spontaneous orders work, including markets, language, and evolution.

The difference is, spontaneous order in law and politics becomes rule
of the strong, the enrichment of a few at the expense of the many.
This has been demonstrated many times, both historically and in modern
examples.

Where spontaneous order works to the benefit of all (or most), it is
to the benefit of all (or most) - and indeed, there are many examples,
such as science.

> And were your argument true -- that some choices are so complicated and that somehow electing a tiny number of people to make them worked better than the alternatives -- why it should be applied more widely. We should comprehensive economic planning just like in the Soviet Union.

False Dilemma.  Just because it works well in many places does not
mean it works well everywhere - and conversely, just because it does
not work well in at least one field does not mean it does not work
well elsewhere.

---

So, to finally answer your question: I count at least 3 logical
fallacies, 2 false claims, and at least 1 attempted redefinition in
your rebuttal (and further cases that are one of these three though it
is not clear exactly which - for instance, is the "externality" claim
a redefinition or an "argument from ignorance" fallacy?), and removing
those seems to leave nothing that disproves my case.  (That is, it's
not just that you have logical fallacies, false claims, and
redefinitions, but rather that those appear to be the whole of your
arguments.)  This is what I meant by, "It falls apart on its own if
you look at it rationally."

It has been my experience that those who rely on these to this degree,
tend to keep relying on them.  If you respond at length to this
letter, it will probably not be worth my time to carefully point out
all the new fallacies et al you make (and I can reasonably assume
you'll be making them if your response is long), for the reasons
mentioned at the start of this letter.  So please don't mistake my
refusing to respond in detail again for any sort of convincing.



From atymes at gmail.com  Thu Nov 29 09:40:44 2012
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2012 01:40:44 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Bad news for US customers of Intrade
In-Reply-To: <CAAc1gFh9FZyB+nXN-GYM53fYj5JNRaRyThBAEU1sTF+dAx9ydQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1211141939530.13627@tau.ceti.pl>
 <1353110725.8177.YahooMailNeo@web126203.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAPoR7a77TTQ_QJDZWXDDRHqbbcTg-hEq=553sKMonqedkBAz-w@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CAPoR7a4HAMTQHy9rHwfPjShL-N6Ai3Jq2NFht+d4GNhaUW03+Q@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CAPoR7a5d+Rq8aVD7E207iKfYaaMFBzz_jm5rc7zJZcWZ2GmQqg@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CALAdGNRQ4vgnc3Sy8u-GP05=DEnbqZm-S5RcFcRAoO4+bVSKwg@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Nov 29, 2012 at 12:19 AM, Rafal Smigrodzki
<rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com> wrote:
> ### Ah, well, this helps me understand your position on my voting
> preferences. Believing that Frank-Dodd does more good than harm is a
> part of a more general pattern - you expect individual lives to be
> controlled by representatives of the community (for which you
> substitute functionaries of the government), i.e. your set of opinions
> seems to imply you see the community as ascendant over each and every
> individual.

Incorrect.  I see the community as a collective good that each
and every individual within it takes part in.  But to describe it as
"ascendant" implies that it somehow has a will of its own,
independent of the people who make it up.

Further, your use of "controlled" there implies absolute control,
which I definitely do not agree with.  But neither do I agree with
zero control - i.e., anarchy - unless a realistic way can be
implemented to prevent it from quickly turning into despotism,
as it has so far every time it's been tried.

If you could find a way to implement anarchy that would actually
stay an anarchy for, say, at least a century, I might support it.  I
am not aware of any such proposals that are remotely feasible
this side of the Singularity, other than reducing human population
within the area in question to below minimum viable levels, and I
do not generally favor human extinction.


From pharos at gmail.com  Thu Nov 29 14:31:14 2012
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2012 14:31:14 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Do robot cars need ethics as well?
Message-ID: <CAL_armiLLy7WiExdZpg_bYb7HWEjNHSGBykzSdxsD6eruCFDkw@mail.gmail.com>

Moral Machines
Posted by Gary Marcus   November 27, 2012
<http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/newsdesk/2012/11/google-driverless-car-morality.html>
Quotes:
Your car is speeding along a bridge at fifty miles per hour when
errant school bus carrying forty innocent children crosses its path.
Should your car swerve, possibly risking the life of its owner (you),
in order to save the children, or keep going, putting all forty kids
at risk? If the decision must be made in milliseconds, the computer
will have to make the call.
-------
An all-powerful computer that was programmed to maximize human
pleasure, for example, might consign us all to an intravenous dopamine
drip; an automated car that aimed to minimize harm would never leave
the driveway. Almost any easy solution that one might imagine leads to
some variation or another on the Sorceror?s Apprentice, a genie that?s
given us what we?ve asked for, rather than what we truly desire. A
tiny cadre of brave-hearted souls at Oxford, Yale, and the Berkeley
California Singularity Institute are working on these problems, but
the annual amount of money being spent on developing machine morality
is tiny.
---------------------


So it is not just making sure the car doesn't crash (as at present).
Humans will require the robots to make judgement calls. And that is
definitely not easy.

Consider the bus crash example. What if it is a prison bus with
convicted murderers in it? Does each human carry a value tag for the
computer to use? Or is it personal survival that always wins? As the
writer says, human morality is still a work in progress, so
programming ethics into robots is problematical.


BillK



From spike66 at att.net  Thu Nov 29 14:52:54 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2012 06:52:54 -0800
Subject: [ExI] atheists on the elevator
Message-ID: <003601cdce41$36e3d770$a4ab8650$@att.net>

 

 

For the moment, do let me put aside my attitude towards the bastards that
set this up.  Watch a couple of them and I have a question for you:

 

http://vod.io/bNSwB/

 

What if you are a hardcore atheist, and you are the victim of this?  Would
you react differently from these people?  I think I would.  I would freak
out of course, but I seriously doubt I would shriek or do any of these
graphics these people did.  I honestly think I would look around after the
girl is gone and try to figure out how the thing was done.

 

spike

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From atymes at gmail.com  Thu Nov 29 18:26:21 2012
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2012 10:26:21 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Do robot cars need ethics as well?
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armiLLy7WiExdZpg_bYb7HWEjNHSGBykzSdxsD6eruCFDkw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armiLLy7WiExdZpg_bYb7HWEjNHSGBykzSdxsD6eruCFDkw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNQuHh3N_WpKXQePyRbL1yvfRsu4jUfKOLwpoS1bdMWdXQ@mail.gmail.com>

> Your car is speeding along a bridge at fifty miles per hour when
> errant school bus carrying forty innocent children crosses its path.
> Should your car swerve, possibly risking the life of its owner (you),
> in order to save the children, or keep going, putting all forty kids
> at risk?

The correct decision, and the one taught by any state-licensed
driver's ed course in the US, is to maintain enough awareness and
reaction distance so that this never happens in the first place.

> Almost any easy solution that one might imagine leads to
> some variation or another on the Sorceror?s Apprentice, a genie that?s
> given us what we?ve asked for, rather than what we truly desire.

Yep, reality is complex.  But one can encode the same rules
that most humans live by, to be safe enough.

On Thu, Nov 29, 2012 at 6:31 AM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:
> Consider the bus crash example. What if it is a prison bus with
> convicted murderers in it? Does each human carry a value tag for the
> computer to use?

What if it's a school bus rented by a prison authority, or a prison
bus rented by a school authority (for a "Scare Them Straight"
program - whatever one might think of those), or if those murderers
had all been exonerated and were being bussed to an airport so
they could go home?  Identification far beyond "a person" does not
seem reliable enough to base any judgments on.



From pharos at gmail.com  Thu Nov 29 19:53:33 2012
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2012 19:53:33 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Do robot cars need ethics as well?
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNQuHh3N_WpKXQePyRbL1yvfRsu4jUfKOLwpoS1bdMWdXQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armiLLy7WiExdZpg_bYb7HWEjNHSGBykzSdxsD6eruCFDkw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQuHh3N_WpKXQePyRbL1yvfRsu4jUfKOLwpoS1bdMWdXQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armizz3s+8sPWntjYCHrjUssGo2nepLKAk5W-HRQr9xkbCA@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Nov 29, 2012 at 6:26 PM, Adrian Tymes  wrote:
> The correct decision, and the one taught by any state-licensed
> driver's ed course in the US, is to maintain enough awareness and
> reaction distance so that this never happens in the first place.
>

Yes, it would be nice if we could plan to avoid having to make choices
between two evils. But unfortunate situations will still arise.

>
> What if it's a school bus rented by a prison authority, or a prison
> bus rented by a school authority (for a "Scare Them Straight"
> program - whatever one might think of those), or if those murderers
> had all been exonerated and were being bussed to an airport so
> they could go home?  Identification far beyond "a person" does not
> seem reliable enough to base any judgments on.
>

If the government is successful in getting everyone to carry a
tracking device (portable mobile phone at present, possibly implanted
chip in future years) then every human could have a 'value tag' being
broadcast for cars, etc. to read and quickly sum up the 'value' of the
bus contents.

However, I think I would be reluctant to allow a robot to decide to
sacrifice my life for the good of others. If the bad situation arises
I would prefer the robot to switch off and leave the human to deal
with it as best he/she could.


BillK


From atymes at gmail.com  Thu Nov 29 20:59:43 2012
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2012 12:59:43 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Do robot cars need ethics as well?
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armizz3s+8sPWntjYCHrjUssGo2nepLKAk5W-HRQr9xkbCA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armiLLy7WiExdZpg_bYb7HWEjNHSGBykzSdxsD6eruCFDkw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQuHh3N_WpKXQePyRbL1yvfRsu4jUfKOLwpoS1bdMWdXQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armizz3s+8sPWntjYCHrjUssGo2nepLKAk5W-HRQr9xkbCA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNTc2rjQvuXAmxAe8xh-iwa3R8Ex2RqqTZ8_sReyahLbnw@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Nov 29, 2012 at 11:53 AM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 29, 2012 at 6:26 PM, Adrian Tymes  wrote:
>> The correct decision, and the one taught by any state-licensed
>> driver's ed course in the US, is to maintain enough awareness and
>> reaction distance so that this never happens in the first place.
>
> Yes, it would be nice if we could plan to avoid having to make choices
> between two evils. But unfortunate situations will still arise.

Certain ones will.  But other situations can be hypothesized that
are more unfortunate than will actually occur.  Further, important
details are often left out that make the choice in practice simpler.

For instance in this case: a bus swerves in front of you.  Do you
swerve to avoid or no?  Well...this place that you would be
swerving to, is it safe & clear?  Is there a wall there, such that
swerving would not prevent your impact with the bus but would
damage your car (and potentially you) further?

By analogy - say you're a cop who's arrested someone who
you believe has planted a bomb.  Do you torture him to find out
where the bomb is?  This is a standard hypothetical used to
defend torture, but...in most cases, you can be fairly confident
that the bomber will tell you of *a* location, and by the time
you investigate only to find there is no bomb there then go
back and ask again, the bomb will have gone off.  This is
especially the case where the cop hastily arrested someone,
but in the cop's haste failed to nab the actual bomber, instead
grabbing an innocent who has no clue about the bomb.

> If the government is successful in getting everyone to carry a
> tracking device (portable mobile phone at present, possibly implanted
> chip in future years) then every human could have a 'value tag' being
> broadcast for cars, etc. to read and quickly sum up the 'value' of the
> bus contents.

In the unlikely case that such a system was successfully
deployed on a wide enough scale to matter, is would be shut
down as soon as it became a tool for assassination when
certain VIPs were "mysteriously" assigned extremely negative
values by "hackers", such that automated cars viewed it as
an overwhelmingly positive thing to go out of their way to collide
with said people at high speed.


From patrickkmclaren at gmail.com  Thu Nov 29 15:37:24 2012
From: patrickkmclaren at gmail.com (Patrick McLaren)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2012 10:37:24 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Do robot cars need ethics as well?
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armiLLy7WiExdZpg_bYb7HWEjNHSGBykzSdxsD6eruCFDkw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armiLLy7WiExdZpg_bYb7HWEjNHSGBykzSdxsD6eruCFDkw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20121129153724.GA4448@patrick-netbook>

On Nov 29 02:31 PM, BillK wrote:
> So it is not just making sure the car doesn't crash (as at present).
> Humans will require the robots to make judgement calls. And that is
> definitely not easy.
> 
> Consider the bus crash example. What if it is a prison bus with
> convicted murderers in it? Does each human carry a value tag for the
> computer to use? Or is it personal survival that always wins? As the
> writer says, human morality is still a work in progress, so
> programming ethics into robots is problematical.

I would expect that in situtations wherein circumstances deviate from an acceptable level, a "minimise effect on environment whilst maximise human safety" approach would be satisfactory. Eg. Clip the rear end of the bus, deploy airbags at appropriate time.

Most other approaches would result in a race condition, with unpredictable outcomes. For example, personal survival might force other (unexpected) vehicles of the road. Enumerating the value tags of the passengers would reduce the time available for response.


From brent.allsop at canonizer.com  Thu Nov 29 21:17:20 2012
From: brent.allsop at canonizer.com (Brent Allsop)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2012 14:17:20 -0700
Subject: [ExI] atheists on the elevator
In-Reply-To: <003601cdce41$36e3d770$a4ab8650$@att.net>
References: <003601cdce41$36e3d770$a4ab8650$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAK7-ontFdBaKDjcW=tqQsiQ8YFbQnxNkKACJa20=JyCiv7rx6g@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Spike,


That was very entertaining, thanks!  I had the same thoughts as you, about
all of them being ?believing? idiots, and I would behave very differently.
Life must be pure hell for people that are really like that.

However, if you behaved ?atheistically? you?d surely not get on the show.
I bet a good portion of the people did this, and they surely cherry picked
the best ?believers?.  Too bad they didn?t also pick at least one of the
best atheist?s who might have done something like ? know the girl came out
of some hidden door, and tried to stop her from leaving, or tried to stand
in her way, once the lights went out again ? so people could have some kind
of moral and healthy influence to look up to / respect ? in comparison to
the sick, though admittedly entertaining, believers.

Brent



On Thu, Nov 29, 2012 at 7:52 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> For the moment, do let me put aside my attitude towards the bastards that
> set this up.  Watch a couple of them and I have a question for you:****
>
> ** **
>
> http://vod.io/bNSwB/****
>
> ** **
>
> What if you are a hardcore atheist, and you are the victim of this?  Would
> you react differently from these people?  I think I would.  I would freak
> out of course, but I seriously doubt I would shriek or do any of these
> graphics these people did.  I honestly think I would look around after the
> girl is gone and try to figure out how the thing was done.****
>
> ** **
>
> spike****
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From spike66 at att.net  Thu Nov 29 22:44:26 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2012 14:44:26 -0800
Subject: [ExI] atheists on the elevator
In-Reply-To: <CAK7-ontFdBaKDjcW=tqQsiQ8YFbQnxNkKACJa20=JyCiv7rx6g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <003601cdce41$36e3d770$a4ab8650$@att.net>
 <CAK7-ontFdBaKDjcW=tqQsiQ8YFbQnxNkKACJa20=JyCiv7rx6g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00c001cdce83$1612c960$42385c20$@att.net>

 

 

From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Brent Allsop
Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2012 1:17 PM
To: ExI chat list
Subject: Re: [ExI] atheists on the elevator

 

>.For the moment, do let me put aside my attitude towards the bastards that
set this up.  Watch a couple of them and I have a question for you:

 http://vod.io/bNSwB/

>.What if you are a hardcore atheist, and you are the victim of this?  Would
you react differently from these people?  I think I would.  I would freak
out of course, but I seriously doubt I would shriek or do any of these
graphics these people did.  I honestly think I would look around after the
girl is gone and try to figure out how the thing was done.spike

 

>.That was very entertaining, thanks!  I had the same thoughts as you, about
all of them being 'believing' idiots, and I would behave very differently.
Life must be pure hell for people that are really like that. Brent

I admit I howled at this, and I do love these kinds of gags.  However. this
is an example of one I would not do.  Reasoning: it is too risky.  Any one
of the victims could keel over with a heart attack, and then your whole life
is ruined.  Furthermore, there is too much risk to the little girl.

I had a related theory I want to have you guys comment on, if you are
willing.  

Clearly, a victim's belief structure influenced the way they reacted to the
ghost girl.  If that gag was played on us, we would be startled, but would
immediately assume either 1) I am having a hallucination or 2) she was in
the elevator when I got on but I was thinking of something else and didn't
notice her, and she sure doesn't look healthy, or 3) someone is playing a
gag on me, a good one.  

But we would not assume a ghost.   If Jacob Marley himself were to show up,
I would be thinking Damn, that's a good hologram.  Perhaps this attitude is
natural in a person who has actually set up these kinds of gags himself.
{8^D  I had fun.  

Prechristian Viking civilizations learned how to ply the seas almost before
anyone, so they were wandering around the globe early in history.  Their
particular brand of Paganism had a number of superstitions that greatly
influenced the way they did things whenever they encountered a strange new
civilization.  They are said to have believed that other civilizations had
magical powers, but were not omnipotent.  For instance they had gnomes,
elves, faeries and things, all examples of beings with powers but not
unlimited powers.  A sturdy Viking lad could defeat them through ordinary
might and a strong sword arm, and often did exactly that: come into a
village of small people (everyone was small compared to the Vikings), freak
out, kill everyone.  Or if they decided the locals did not have magical
powers, then two or three would offer to stay behind.  The locals would
likely welcome or at least tolerate the sturdy blonde guy, and I can imagine
he was popular with the ladies.  This would explain why Viking genes are
found everywhere.

Theory: in the north country, the home of the Vikings, there were no
poisonous plants or frogs for instance, so the Vikings never did learn the
basic chemistry required to do such things as making poison darts.  The
people from the tropics, on the other hand, had plenty of poisons they could
distill from their local biota, so they did.  The use of poison darts would
appear as magic to a Viking, all of whose biota was perfectly non-toxic.
The whole notion of making a poison from the glands of a tree frog would be
witchcraft and magic.  So the Vikings encountered a population who knew how
to mysteriously kill proles.  The survivors returned to Sweden with the
stories, and this influenced their belief system.  So the later generations
of Vikings, not wanting to take a chance there may be dark magic at work,
would slay the lot of them whenever possible.

An ancient Viking, or one with a similar mindset, in the elevator with the
zombie girl might attack and seriously injure her, rather than cowering in
the corner as these people did.

Commentary welcome by anyone with knowledge of actual Vikings, or any direct
descendants of actual Vikings, Anders.

spike 

 

 

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From anders at aleph.se  Thu Nov 29 23:25:42 2012
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2012 23:25:42 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Do robot cars need ethics as well?
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNTc2rjQvuXAmxAe8xh-iwa3R8Ex2RqqTZ8_sReyahLbnw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armiLLy7WiExdZpg_bYb7HWEjNHSGBykzSdxsD6eruCFDkw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQuHh3N_WpKXQePyRbL1yvfRsu4jUfKOLwpoS1bdMWdXQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armizz3s+8sPWntjYCHrjUssGo2nepLKAk5W-HRQr9xkbCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNTc2rjQvuXAmxAe8xh-iwa3R8Ex2RqqTZ8_sReyahLbnw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <50B7EEF6.6040402@aleph.se>

I'm actually working on a paper on this. (It is a bit of a holiday from 
uploading and superintelligences taking over the world - and, yes, I am 
writing it with a person who actually drives and knows cars!)

On 29/11/2012 20:59, Adrian Tymes wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 29, 2012 at 11:53 AM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Thu, Nov 29, 2012 at 6:26 PM, Adrian Tymes  wrote:
>>> The correct decision, and the one taught by any state-licensed
>>> driver's ed course in the US, is to maintain enough awareness and
>>> reaction distance so that this never happens in the first place.
>> Yes, it would be nice if we could plan to avoid having to make choices
>> between two evils. But unfortunate situations will still arise.
> Certain ones will.  But other situations can be hypothesized that
> are more unfortunate than will actually occur.  Further, important
> details are often left out that make the choice in practice simpler.

Teaching ethics to engineers is apparently very frustrating. The teacher 
explains the trolley problem, and the students immediately try to weasel 
out of making the choice - normal people do that too, but engineers are 
very creative in avoiding confronting the pure thought experiment and 
its unpalatable choice. They miss the point about the whole exercise (to 
analyse moral reasoning), and the teacher typically miss the point about 
engineering (rearranging situations so the outcomes are good enough).

The problem with the real world is that many situations cannot be neatly 
"solved": you cannot design an autonomous car that will never get 
involved in an accident unless it is immobile in a garage, unreachable 
for animals, children, crazy adults or other cars. And in an accident 
situation, no matter what the cause, actions have to be taken that have 
moral implications. Even ignoring the problem and not adding any moral 
code to the design is a morally relevant action that should be ethically 
investigated.

> For instance in this case: a bus swerves in front of you.  Do you
> swerve to avoid or no?  Well...this place that you would be
> swerving to, is it safe & clear?  Is there a wall there, such that
> swerving would not prevent your impact with the bus but would
> damage your car (and potentially you) further?

You can imagine a set of goals for the car:

    1. Get the passengers from A to B safely (and ideally fast and
    comfortably)
    2. Follow traffic rules
    3. Protect yourself (and other objects) from damage

These are *really* nontrivial, and just as tricky as Asimov's laws. Just 
imagine defining 'safely' or the theory of mind required to implement 2 
in the presence of other cars (driven by AI and humans of varying 
sanity). In practice there will be loads of smaller heuristics, 
subsumption behaviours and special purpose tricks that support them, but 
also cause quirks of behaviour that are not always good.

Oops, already this writeup has a huge bug: pedestrians are just objects 
in goal 3. They probably should be given as much priority (or more, 
depending on traffic law and ethics in your country) as the passengers. 
In fact, recognizing that humans have special value is probably an 
important first step of any autonomous machine ethics-software design 
(it is one of the few things nearly all ethicists can agree on).

So in the swerving case, the car will now try to evaluate which option 
is best. If it is utilitarian it will minimize the expected amount of 
hurt people, taking uncertainty into account. But apparently UK road 
ethics suggests that the driver should prefer to take risks to 
themselves to reduce risks to others: swerving into a wall to avoid the 
bus might be better than risking hitting it and hurting any passengers. 
And so on. There are different views, different legal regulations, and 
different moral and ethical theories about what should be done. Which 
ones to implement? And why those?

It is unlikely that cars would do very deep or innovative moral thinking 
(we are not assuming anything close to human level AI), but even 
preprogrammed behaviors can get very complex and confusing. Especially 
if cars network and coordinate their actions ("OK, AUQ343, you swerve to 
the right, since that spot is empty according to TJE232's sensors.")

Would governments mandate a single car-ethics, likely implemented as 
part of safety regulations? Besides the impact on tinkerers and foreign 
cars, it poses questions about human drivers who obviously follow their 
individual non-mandated morality. If your car does not drive as you 
would have done and you are not even allowed to change its behaviour, 
can you be held responsible for its actions in any way? More deeply, 
would it be better to have ethical monocultures on the road or not? Is 
it even possible?

When should auto-autos allow humans to drive? Sometimes overrides are 
necessary, sometimes the car may know things the human doesn't know. 
There is a whole range of issues of trustworthiness, predictability and 
owner-pet relationships going on here that are very non-engineering-like.

In short, I don't envy the engineers who have to implement something 
workable. But figuring out some moral heuristics that solve a lot of 
problems seems doable and not too impossible.

-- 
Anders Sandberg,
Future of Humanity Institute
Oxford Martin School
Faculty of Philosophy
Oxford University

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From anders at aleph.se  Thu Nov 29 23:48:16 2012
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2012 23:48:16 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Viking toxicology (Was: atheists on the elevator)
In-Reply-To: <00c001cdce83$1612c960$42385c20$@att.net>
References: <003601cdce41$36e3d770$a4ab8650$@att.net>
 <CAK7-ontFdBaKDjcW=tqQsiQ8YFbQnxNkKACJa20=JyCiv7rx6g@mail.gmail.com>
 <00c001cdce83$1612c960$42385c20$@att.net>
Message-ID: <50B7F440.8060602@aleph.se>

The Vikings did know about poisons - there are lots of references to 
venomous dragons, poisoned wells and suchlike, but the poisons seemed to 
be mostly described as snake venom ("etter"). The berserkers getting 
crazy on fly agaric is likely a myth. But no agricultural society will 
be ignorant about the toxicity of some of the apparently edible berries 
and plants they find around them.

 From my understanding of their culture, poisons belonged to the area of 
dark, creepy magic, "sejd". Proper runic magic was fine: that was all 
about poetry and learning, even if it was used to curse enemies. But 
sejd was underhanded, foreign, shamanic and associated with witches from 
Finland or further east - not the kind of thing a proper man or woman 
ought to deal with (Sure, the gods Odin and Loki knew and used it, but 
they were always a bit suspect... yup, the chief of the gods had a few 
skeletons in the wardrobe)

Generally, Spike is right about the Viking disdain about magic. It might 
be dangerous and worth fearing, but since a proper Viking warrior 
ignores fear, you should charge in anyway. As one of the heroes said, a 
good sword beats most magic.

(I guess we post-Vikings would say a good double-blind randomized trial 
beats most magic.)


On 29/11/2012 22:44, spike wrote:
>
> Prechristian Viking civilizations learned how to ply the seas almost 
> before anyone, so they were wandering around the globe early in 
> history.  Their particular brand of Paganism had a number of 
> superstitions that greatly influenced the way they did things whenever 
> they encountered a strange new civilization.  They are said to have 
> believed that other civilizations had magical powers, but were not 
> omnipotent.  For instance they had gnomes, elves, faeries and things, 
> all examples of beings with powers but not unlimited powers.  A sturdy 
> Viking lad could defeat them through ordinary might and a strong sword 
> arm, and often did exactly that: come into a village of small people 
> (everyone was small compared to the Vikings), freak out, kill 
> everyone.  Or if they decided the locals did not have magical powers, 
> then two or three would offer to stay behind.  The locals would likely 
> welcome or at least tolerate the sturdy blonde guy, and I can imagine 
> he was popular with the ladies.  This would explain why Viking genes 
> are found everywhere.
>
> Theory: in the north country, the home of the Vikings, there were no 
> poisonous plants or frogs for instance, so the Vikings never did learn 
> the basic chemistry required to do such things as making poison 
> darts.  The people from the tropics, on the other hand, had plenty of 
> poisons they could distill from their local biota, so they did.  The 
> use of poison darts would appear as magic to a Viking, all of whose 
> biota was perfectly non-toxic.  The whole notion of making a poison 
> from the glands of a tree frog would be witchcraft and magic.  So the 
> Vikings encountered a population who knew how to mysteriously kill 
> proles.  The survivors returned to Sweden with the stories, and this 
> influenced their belief system.  So the later generations of Vikings, 
> not wanting to take a chance there may be dark magic at work, would 
> slay the lot of them whenever possible.
>
> An ancient Viking, or one with a similar mindset, in the elevator with 
> the zombie girl might attack and seriously injure her, rather than 
> cowering in the corner as these people did.
>
> Commentary welcome by anyone with knowledge of actual Vikings, or any 
> direct descendants of actual Vikings, Anders
>
-- 
Anders Sandberg,
Future of Humanity Institute
Oxford Martin School
Faculty of Philosophy
Oxford University

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From mrjones2020 at gmail.com  Fri Nov 30 03:28:38 2012
From: mrjones2020 at gmail.com (J.R. Jones)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2012 22:28:38 -0500
Subject: [ExI] atheists on the elevator
In-Reply-To: <003601cdce41$36e3d770$a4ab8650$@att.net>
References: <003601cdce41$36e3d770$a4ab8650$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CADDVf2Ku_SwFZk61xjhAJBMCZ97k_1KSTRgjjZCZyFAgjaLGPA@mail.gmail.com>

I'd ask her if she's ok, and why she's screaming.  I'd be surprised, yes.
Scared, no.  Interested, absolutely.
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From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Fri Nov 30 06:31:48 2012
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2012 01:31:48 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Bad news for US customers of Intrade
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNRQ4vgnc3Sy8u-GP05=DEnbqZm-S5RcFcRAoO4+bVSKwg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1211141939530.13627@tau.ceti.pl>
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Message-ID: <CAAc1gFgaSctyV+YwsX0mosEAeX9mfcXLcU87Faiu44ECeW4W3Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Nov 29, 2012 at 4:40 AM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 29, 2012 at 12:19 AM, Rafal Smigrodzki
> <rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com> wrote:
>> ### Ah, well, this helps me understand your position on my voting
>> preferences. Believing that Frank-Dodd does more good than harm is a
>> part of a more general pattern - you expect individual lives to be
>> controlled by representatives of the community (for which you
>> substitute functionaries of the government), i.e. your set of opinions
>> seems to imply you see the community as ascendant over each and every
>> individual.
>
> Incorrect.  I see the community as a collective good that each
> and every individual within it takes part in.  But to describe it as
> "ascendant" implies that it somehow has a will of its own,
> independent of the people who make it up.

### Well, no, it only means you consistently favor communitarian,
centralized control over distributed control - you demand that I vote
or shut up instead of trading and arguing, you demand that bureaucrats
have to control individual securities trades rather than letting
market participants make their own decisions. In your world people
have to act through gatekeepers of power (elected officials, unelected
bureaucrats) rather than through individual acts of trade.

--------------------

>
> Further, your use of "controlled" there implies absolute control,
> which I definitely do not agree with.  But neither do I agree with
> zero control - i.e., anarchy - unless a realistic way can be
> implemented to prevent it from quickly turning into despotism,
> as it has so far every time it's been tried.

### In all encounters with me so far you have taken the side of more
government control of our lives, compared to what we have now (there
is a duty to vote, there is no right to trade securities etc.).

In other words, AFAIK, you are not against uncontrolled anarchy, you
are for (much more) government.

Do you see the crucial difference between the two positions?

Rafal


From atymes at gmail.com  Fri Nov 30 07:17:19 2012
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2012 23:17:19 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Bad news for US customers of Intrade
In-Reply-To: <CAAc1gFgaSctyV+YwsX0mosEAeX9mfcXLcU87Faiu44ECeW4W3Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1211141939530.13627@tau.ceti.pl>
 <1353110725.8177.YahooMailNeo@web126203.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAPoR7a77TTQ_QJDZWXDDRHqbbcTg-hEq=553sKMonqedkBAz-w@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CAPoR7a4HAMTQHy9rHwfPjShL-N6Ai3Jq2NFht+d4GNhaUW03+Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <1353781201.73656.YahooMailNeo@web126206.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAPoR7a5d+Rq8aVD7E207iKfYaaMFBzz_jm5rc7zJZcWZ2GmQqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <48e21f01413554ff296857644886c7d1.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
 <CAPoR7a6PThEz=1m+QybODpLpfgN_eipM-HRFWNgTWz3g6upoMQ@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CALAdGNSGKiiX8uBe+xTrjZ3BV6x3GzN+Ct0q9qOPNhdxHBzybw@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Nov 29, 2012 at 10:31 PM, Rafal Smigrodzki
<rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com> wrote:
> you demand that bureaucrats
> have to control individual securities trades rather than letting
> market participants make their own decisions. In your world people
> have to act through gatekeepers of power (elected officials, unelected
> bureaucrats) rather than through individual acts of trade.

I request an apology.

You have been claiming that my support for any degree
of law and regulation, means that I support total law and
no individual choice.  For instance, see the above-quoted
section.

As you state it, either I can "let market participants make
their own decision" or I can "demand that bureaucrats
have to control individual securities trades".  What I
support is not 100% either one, but in between.

Further, my support for some degree of law is based in
part on the knowledge that uncontrolled anarchy becomes
despotism - which rather massively takes away individual
choice.  That is to say, 100% individual control does not
(yet) work in reality, so the practical choice is between a
little control or a lot of control.

Future technological solutions may be able to reduce the
practical minimum amount of control.  This will be a good
thing.  Until then, we live in the world we live in.

Therefore, to claim that I support total government control
and the complete removal of individual choice, just
because I support any degree of control (which I support
in order to *protect* individual choice), is an insult.

(This is, BTW, similar to the scam those in control of the
GOP are pulling on its rank and file members.  Are you
now, or have you ever been, a member of the Republican
Party? :P )

> ### In all encounters with me so far you have taken the side of more
> government control of our lives, compared to what we have now (there
> is a duty to vote, there is no right to trade securities etc.).

This "encounter" was of your asking whether I support
Dodd-Frank.  That exists now.  Nothing in my direct
response stated a desire for far more of Dodd-Frank,
but merely support for what exists (and only the
majority of it) in this topic.

This is but one example where I have not, in fact,
taken the side of more government control than what
we have now.

I wonder whether you are deliberately lying, or simply
rejecting all evidence that contrasts with your
assertions.  Either way, you are wrong.


From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Fri Nov 30 12:04:42 2012
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2012 07:04:42 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Conscientious objections
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNTN+O4J_=H1TaAtryGcroTCcb15kmW=BnmZ8beYbDT_mA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAc1gFizs0+k6D9-YAERqNF1tUb_eZ0ft6Q3WhQ3cKqpcVQq9Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQ3oZrwp7HXn4Ed2V+mLp+PBqJyR8ZVWgi7AHhJDF81dQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJX-7wXqZSkG-cnNZY1oNiHB06Pan9a2i0AJhN5XOdjXxF5FZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a7m-chwTUSV+7824gTZrCBYZj6XzeGnQse2740qjSwQ1g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQyUCjibTNEcaguy0zFR=TSvD555=H2WziWk81xGwtv5g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJX-7wUbznHOre+Eyxji_OgX-JmuHSXQxdON8TLTOkE+0uGT8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNT3kyFw2+m9K5kE1DtEUMMepszEiGj32cB4uvX1gbRt5A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFjeq=mfELaOxk75+oZNFrwxKd19-RyvyHKaZbgvtSCYhg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRLfn1T-KS5LCooYL7tV-i1Y9vpWvGRxhY3-jsq-JSyVA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1353103728.91925.YahooMailNeo@web126205.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAAc1gFi+M_OAQkbn_rGRcgBh1LhyaJC=KrB+R3n_z3PWH8_GBQ@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAAc1gFiKjGmB5vRVMiEo5CzUusvv1RFgTx+qGKvfha6fenmDhg@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Nov 29, 2012 at 4:27 AM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:

(Dan wrote)
>> But even allowing that you own the state -- or that you and the rest of the subjects of the state own it -- since Rafal is one of the subjects he owns it as much as you.

 (Adrian wrote)
> If he owns it, then it is his duty to attempt to control it.  To do
> otherwise is negligence.  That he is part owner along with hundreds of
> millions of others does not fundamentally change this, although it
> does dramatically minimize the degree of negligence.  (It's kind of a
> "micro-sin" - but a moral value of -0.000001 is still less than 0.)

### I don't own the state. I refuse and repudiate any claims that I am
complicit or co-responsible for the immoral and destructive actions of
the state. I am a victim and a prisoner of the state, not one of the
jailers, or one of the cooperating prisoners (a.k.a., Kapo).

----------------------

>
>> Third, not voting doesn't really change his tax position.
>
> Irrelevant.  The subject at hand was the duty to vote, and I had noted
> that he is helping decide how *my* taxes were spent.  If he does not
> care how *his* taxes are spent, that is a different thing.

### You, as a voter, are responsible for the way your taxes are spent.
The blood of innocent people is on *your* hands, not mine.

I did not vote, I do not want to decide how to spend your taxes, I am
appalled at how my taxes are spent, I will not legitimize taxing me by
voting, and I am not guilty.

Also, the real issue is not whether taxation is "wrong" or "right" but
whether the hierarchical monopolistic bureaucracy is a smart (i.e.
well-working) or stupid (i.e. inept and dangerous) idea. So, yes, the
state is first and foremost a stupid idea, therefore it is a wrong
idea, therefore taxes are wrong, too.

In this context, I'd rather be smart than right.

--------------------

> To the degree that it would be highly disruptive, perhaps
> life-threatening, to leave the country - guess what?  That's because
> the world at large inherently* imposes an unjust taking on you, me,
> and everyone we personally know just for existing.  This particular
> nation deals with it to a substantial degree, but imposes certain
> things - such as taxes, and a moral obligation to vote - in return.

### No, there is no physical law "inherently" imposing the existence
of government on us. It is not "the world at large" imposing an unjust
taking on me, it is you, through your own individual actions (voting),
and millions more of people like you, a band of robbers, who decide,
every four years, to perpetuate the taking, although each and every
time you all could, if you all wanted, cease your behavior. Contrary
to your claim, we *could* have a polycentric law system - not an
anarchy, but a superior, non-violent, non-state source of law and
order. It's not a physical law that prevents its existence, it is the
sum of individual choices that keeps us imprisoned.

Do you notice how our thinking differs? You see the mass of humanity
as an independent, suprahuman entity, "the world at large" that does
something to individuals. I see each and every human as a
decision-maker.

-----------------
> (There's also the false moral equivalence between taxes and robbery -
> but that's been debunked thoroughly by others, and does not need to be
> proven to show that there exists substantial differences of other
> kinds between robbery and taxes.)

### Eh, no, taxes and robbery *are* equivalent (in most of their
economic effects, and let's not drag morality into it) and nobody has
yet debunked the equivalence in a discussion with me.

-------------------
> Let us say, for example, that you and I were together at a street
> corner, and zombies began attacking. <snip>

### You are using a form of the "lifeboat situation" here, an argument
well-known to me. It is not applicable - the zombies are not
attacking, you voted and they took my money to, among other execrable
actions, buy more ammunition to kill innocent people.

You are on the side of the zombies, Adrian.
-----------------
(Dan wrote)
>> Scientists don't elect representatives to decide which theories are valid and which should be set aside. Yet complicated scientific theories are somehow invented, tested, refined, and spread (or rejected). How's that possible?
>> Well, it's a complicated issue, but it seems that it's a much similar process to how many other spontaneous orders work, including markets, language, and evolution.

(Adrian wrote)
> The difference is, spontaneous order in law and politics becomes rule
> of the strong, the enrichment of a few at the expense of the many.
> This has been demonstrated many times, both historically and in modern
> examples.

### You choose to apply the word "spontaneous" to autocracy and
tyranny but this is not the meaning that Dan used. "Spontaneous" order
in markets, language and evolution is completely different from
"spontaneous" emergence of despots.

Carefully engineering a society to maximize the wisdom of crowds (as
opposed to letting it get wasted in the voting booth) is definitely
not what you call "spontaneous order".

----------------------
Dan wrote:
>> And were your argument true -- that some choices are so complicated and that somehow electing a tiny number of people to make them worked better than the alternatives -- why it should be applied more widely. We should comprehensive economic planning just like in the Soviet Union.

Adrian wrote:
> False Dilemma.  Just because it works well in many places does not
> mean it works well everywhere - and conversely, just because it does
> not work well in at least one field does not mean it does not work
> well elsewhere.

### This is perhaps the crux of our disagreement - you have a
difficulty, even theoretically, to imagine a decentralized, and
superior, law and order system, similar in principle to the
spontaneous organization of the scientific community, that works in
real life. I *can* envision it, including a lot of the technical
details needed or sufficient for its existence - even if I see it
cannot be implemented today. This vision leads me to argue in favor of
approaching that limit-libertarian system as much as possible - I can
see both the outline of a path, and the shining ideal at its end. You
think this is just an illusion, and for some reason you argue in favor
of changing today's status quo in the opposite direction, for example
by demanding that I vote and by forbidding me to use Intrade.

It is a difference of visions, indeed.

Let me suggest an exercise for you: Try to imagine Utopia. Try to
define what characteristics a society must have to be ideal - as much
as possible abstracting from the nitty-gritty details, the trade-offs,
the unavoidable evils. Once you form that vision, your theoretical,
ideal world, start adjusting it towards reality - making concessions
to physical laws first, then use your judgment to arrive at a society
that *could* in principle exist, given plausible technological and
social developments. This society should be your long-term,
ideological goal - not the society as it is now, not politics as
usual, but a society that could be built in the future. Once you have
that goal, you can choose your path towards it.

And one more notion - while the goal is defined in moral terms, the
path forward is "technical", not moral - moving on this path should be
driven by understanding of possibilities, not by short term moralistic
arguments. Don't accuse me of "negligence" - try to rely on more
technical reasoning about the results of my voting inaction, how it
potentially changes the future. Once you go through a detailed,
rational analysis you might be able to argue the likely results of my
actions, as opposed to arguing about your feelings on this matter, and
the discussion could move more fruitfully forward.


Rafal



From jose_cordeiro at yahoo.com  Fri Nov 30 15:14:36 2012
From: jose_cordeiro at yahoo.com (Jose Cordeiro)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2012 07:14:36 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [ExI] ...
Message-ID: <1354288476.63592.BPMail_high_noncarrier@web163403.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>


http://www.catalusa.com.br/947254.php?kesuhuny


From kryonica at gmail.com  Fri Nov 30 16:14:49 2012
From: kryonica at gmail.com (Cryonica)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2012 16:14:49 +0000
Subject: [ExI] ...
In-Reply-To: <1354288476.63592.BPMail_high_noncarrier@web163403.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <1354288476.63592.BPMail_high_noncarrier@web163403.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <A9EFDC97-A4D7-4B3F-8E7F-50AFEFAD9907@gmail.com>

SPAM!
On 30 Nov 2012, at 15:14, Jose Cordeiro wrote:

> 
> http://www.catalusa.com.br/947254.php?kesuhuny
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

Cryonica
kryonica at gmail.com



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From pharos at gmail.com  Fri Nov 30 17:03:33 2012
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2012 17:03:33 +0000
Subject: [ExI] ...
In-Reply-To: <1354288476.63592.BPMail_high_noncarrier@web163403.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <1354288476.63592.BPMail_high_noncarrier@web163403.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armgUnfcsD1fN4aBxTBC6cNAKjuU_46p-Ax4qOkS8vT4yoA@mail.gmail.com>

Links to Ukrainian work at home SCAM site

Looks like Jose' yahoo mail account has been compromised.


BillK


From atymes at gmail.com  Fri Nov 30 18:49:57 2012
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2012 10:49:57 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Conscientious objections
In-Reply-To: <CAAc1gFiKjGmB5vRVMiEo5CzUusvv1RFgTx+qGKvfha6fenmDhg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAc1gFizs0+k6D9-YAERqNF1tUb_eZ0ft6Q3WhQ3cKqpcVQq9Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQ3oZrwp7HXn4Ed2V+mLp+PBqJyR8ZVWgi7AHhJDF81dQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJX-7wXqZSkG-cnNZY1oNiHB06Pan9a2i0AJhN5XOdjXxF5FZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a7m-chwTUSV+7824gTZrCBYZj6XzeGnQse2740qjSwQ1g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQyUCjibTNEcaguy0zFR=TSvD555=H2WziWk81xGwtv5g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJX-7wUbznHOre+Eyxji_OgX-JmuHSXQxdON8TLTOkE+0uGT8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNT3kyFw2+m9K5kE1DtEUMMepszEiGj32cB4uvX1gbRt5A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFjeq=mfELaOxk75+oZNFrwxKd19-RyvyHKaZbgvtSCYhg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRLfn1T-KS5LCooYL7tV-i1Y9vpWvGRxhY3-jsq-JSyVA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1353103728.91925.YahooMailNeo@web126205.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAAc1gFi+M_OAQkbn_rGRcgBh1LhyaJC=KrB+R3n_z3PWH8_GBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQZTTEBP3qbkTQmX_fDt1SXZbpcYb=4JLvqeP7brCTLfQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <1354171527.10986.YahooMailNeo@web126206.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CALAdGNTN+O4J_=H1TaAtryGcroTCcb15kmW=BnmZ8beYbDT_mA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFiKjGmB5vRVMiEo5CzUusvv1RFgTx+qGKvfha6fenmDhg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNQPh4u2LacXXMJnVXH6gv_JWDjQ6b2w-mo_4fKypMGZpw@mail.gmail.com>

More false claims, fallacies, and redefinitions, just as I
predicted.

I wash my hands of this debate.

On Fri, Nov 30, 2012 at 4:04 AM, Rafal Smigrodzki
<rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 29, 2012 at 4:27 AM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> (Dan wrote)
>>> But even allowing that you own the state -- or that you and the rest of the subjects of the state own it -- since Rafal is one of the subjects he owns it as much as you.
>
>  (Adrian wrote)
>> If he owns it, then it is his duty to attempt to control it.  To do
>> otherwise is negligence.  That he is part owner along with hundreds of
>> millions of others does not fundamentally change this, although it
>> does dramatically minimize the degree of negligence.  (It's kind of a
>> "micro-sin" - but a moral value of -0.000001 is still less than 0.)
>
> ### I don't own the state. I refuse and repudiate any claims that I am
> complicit or co-responsible for the immoral and destructive actions of
> the state. I am a victim and a prisoner of the state, not one of the
> jailers, or one of the cooperating prisoners (a.k.a., Kapo).
>
> ----------------------
>
>>
>>> Third, not voting doesn't really change his tax position.
>>
>> Irrelevant.  The subject at hand was the duty to vote, and I had noted
>> that he is helping decide how *my* taxes were spent.  If he does not
>> care how *his* taxes are spent, that is a different thing.
>
> ### You, as a voter, are responsible for the way your taxes are spent.
> The blood of innocent people is on *your* hands, not mine.
>
> I did not vote, I do not want to decide how to spend your taxes, I am
> appalled at how my taxes are spent, I will not legitimize taxing me by
> voting, and I am not guilty.
>
> Also, the real issue is not whether taxation is "wrong" or "right" but
> whether the hierarchical monopolistic bureaucracy is a smart (i.e.
> well-working) or stupid (i.e. inept and dangerous) idea. So, yes, the
> state is first and foremost a stupid idea, therefore it is a wrong
> idea, therefore taxes are wrong, too.
>
> In this context, I'd rather be smart than right.
>
> --------------------
>
>> To the degree that it would be highly disruptive, perhaps
>> life-threatening, to leave the country - guess what?  That's because
>> the world at large inherently* imposes an unjust taking on you, me,
>> and everyone we personally know just for existing.  This particular
>> nation deals with it to a substantial degree, but imposes certain
>> things - such as taxes, and a moral obligation to vote - in return.
>
> ### No, there is no physical law "inherently" imposing the existence
> of government on us. It is not "the world at large" imposing an unjust
> taking on me, it is you, through your own individual actions (voting),
> and millions more of people like you, a band of robbers, who decide,
> every four years, to perpetuate the taking, although each and every
> time you all could, if you all wanted, cease your behavior. Contrary
> to your claim, we *could* have a polycentric law system - not an
> anarchy, but a superior, non-violent, non-state source of law and
> order. It's not a physical law that prevents its existence, it is the
> sum of individual choices that keeps us imprisoned.
>
> Do you notice how our thinking differs? You see the mass of humanity
> as an independent, suprahuman entity, "the world at large" that does
> something to individuals. I see each and every human as a
> decision-maker.
>
> -----------------
>> (There's also the false moral equivalence between taxes and robbery -
>> but that's been debunked thoroughly by others, and does not need to be
>> proven to show that there exists substantial differences of other
>> kinds between robbery and taxes.)
>
> ### Eh, no, taxes and robbery *are* equivalent (in most of their
> economic effects, and let's not drag morality into it) and nobody has
> yet debunked the equivalence in a discussion with me.
>
> -------------------
>> Let us say, for example, that you and I were together at a street
>> corner, and zombies began attacking. <snip>
>
> ### You are using a form of the "lifeboat situation" here, an argument
> well-known to me. It is not applicable - the zombies are not
> attacking, you voted and they took my money to, among other execrable
> actions, buy more ammunition to kill innocent people.
>
> You are on the side of the zombies, Adrian.
> -----------------
> (Dan wrote)
>>> Scientists don't elect representatives to decide which theories are valid and which should be set aside. Yet complicated scientific theories are somehow invented, tested, refined, and spread (or rejected). How's that possible?
>>> Well, it's a complicated issue, but it seems that it's a much similar process to how many other spontaneous orders work, including markets, language, and evolution.
>
> (Adrian wrote)
>> The difference is, spontaneous order in law and politics becomes rule
>> of the strong, the enrichment of a few at the expense of the many.
>> This has been demonstrated many times, both historically and in modern
>> examples.
>
> ### You choose to apply the word "spontaneous" to autocracy and
> tyranny but this is not the meaning that Dan used. "Spontaneous" order
> in markets, language and evolution is completely different from
> "spontaneous" emergence of despots.
>
> Carefully engineering a society to maximize the wisdom of crowds (as
> opposed to letting it get wasted in the voting booth) is definitely
> not what you call "spontaneous order".
>
> ----------------------
> Dan wrote:
>>> And were your argument true -- that some choices are so complicated and that somehow electing a tiny number of people to make them worked better than the alternatives -- why it should be applied more widely. We should comprehensive economic planning just like in the Soviet Union.
>
> Adrian wrote:
>> False Dilemma.  Just because it works well in many places does not
>> mean it works well everywhere - and conversely, just because it does
>> not work well in at least one field does not mean it does not work
>> well elsewhere.
>
> ### This is perhaps the crux of our disagreement - you have a
> difficulty, even theoretically, to imagine a decentralized, and
> superior, law and order system, similar in principle to the
> spontaneous organization of the scientific community, that works in
> real life. I *can* envision it, including a lot of the technical
> details needed or sufficient for its existence - even if I see it
> cannot be implemented today. This vision leads me to argue in favor of
> approaching that limit-libertarian system as much as possible - I can
> see both the outline of a path, and the shining ideal at its end. You
> think this is just an illusion, and for some reason you argue in favor
> of changing today's status quo in the opposite direction, for example
> by demanding that I vote and by forbidding me to use Intrade.
>
> It is a difference of visions, indeed.
>
> Let me suggest an exercise for you: Try to imagine Utopia. Try to
> define what characteristics a society must have to be ideal - as much
> as possible abstracting from the nitty-gritty details, the trade-offs,
> the unavoidable evils. Once you form that vision, your theoretical,
> ideal world, start adjusting it towards reality - making concessions
> to physical laws first, then use your judgment to arrive at a society
> that *could* in principle exist, given plausible technological and
> social developments. This society should be your long-term,
> ideological goal - not the society as it is now, not politics as
> usual, but a society that could be built in the future. Once you have
> that goal, you can choose your path towards it.
>
> And one more notion - while the goal is defined in moral terms, the
> path forward is "technical", not moral - moving on this path should be
> driven by understanding of possibilities, not by short term moralistic
> arguments. Don't accuse me of "negligence" - try to rely on more
> technical reasoning about the results of my voting inaction, how it
> potentially changes the future. Once you go through a detailed,
> rational analysis you might be able to argue the likely results of my
> actions, as opposed to arguing about your feelings on this matter, and
> the discussion could move more fruitfully forward.
>
>
> Rafal
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat



From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Fri Nov 30 18:25:56 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2012 19:25:56 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Do robot cars need ethics as well?
In-Reply-To: <50B7EEF6.6040402@aleph.se>
References: <CAL_armiLLy7WiExdZpg_bYb7HWEjNHSGBykzSdxsD6eruCFDkw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQuHh3N_WpKXQePyRbL1yvfRsu4jUfKOLwpoS1bdMWdXQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armizz3s+8sPWntjYCHrjUssGo2nepLKAk5W-HRQr9xkbCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNTc2rjQvuXAmxAe8xh-iwa3R8Ex2RqqTZ8_sReyahLbnw@mail.gmail.com>
 <50B7EEF6.6040402@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a7uqiT8_CSedOdznedJQcb6O7k37dx569XBzMBF_cBGUQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 30 November 2012 00:25, Anders Sandberg <anders at aleph.se> wrote:
> Teaching ethics to engineers is apparently very frustrating. The teacher
> explains the trolley problem, and the students immediately try to weasel out
> of making the choice - normal people do that too, but engineers are very
> creative in avoiding confronting the pure thought experiment and its
> unpalatable choice. They miss the point about the whole exercise (to analyse
> moral reasoning), and the teacher typically miss the point about engineering
> (rearranging situations so the outcomes are good enough).

Let me confess that I miss the point as well.

An "intelligent" car need not have more ethical software in its
programming than a corkscrew, ethics having of course nothing to do
with following hard-wired criteria, but with making its own decisions.

If the car is programmed to sacrifice its passengers for the sake of
increasing the number of the survivors, or the the other way around,
it is no more nor less ethical than a car with a software-limited
maximum speed as your everyday Merc or BMW has been for decades now.

The "ethical" choice squarely remains in the manufacturers' ballpark
or in that of legislators enforcing rules on them. The rest is just
the accuracy with which the car is able to reflect it: the efficiency
and comprehensiveness of the old, boring calculations to be made.

-- 
Stefano Vaj


From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Fri Nov 30 18:29:29 2012
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2012 19:29:29 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Viking toxicology (Was: atheists on the elevator)
In-Reply-To: <50B7F440.8060602@aleph.se>
References: <003601cdce41$36e3d770$a4ab8650$@att.net>
 <CAK7-ontFdBaKDjcW=tqQsiQ8YFbQnxNkKACJa20=JyCiv7rx6g@mail.gmail.com>
 <00c001cdce83$1612c960$42385c20$@att.net>
 <50B7F440.8060602@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a4HDGV6Bi9pLVrQJjwqdaERaufnCWTP9kT2aaJBzLEoWg@mail.gmail.com>

On 30 November 2012 00:48, Anders Sandberg <anders at aleph.se> wrote:
> The Vikings did know about poisons - there are lots of references to
> venomous dragons, poisoned wells and suchlike, but the poisons seemed to be
> mostly described as snake venom ("etter"). The berserkers getting crazy on
> fly agaric is likely a myth. But no agricultural society will be ignorant
> about the toxicity of some of the apparently edible berries and plants they
> find around them.
>
> From my understanding of their culture, poisons belonged to the area of
> dark, creepy magic, "sejd". Proper runic magic was fine: that was all about
> poetry and learning, even if it was used to curse enemies. But sejd was
> underhanded, foreign, shamanic and associated with witches from Finland or
> further east - not the kind of thing a proper man or woman ought to deal
> with (Sure, the gods Odin and Loki knew and used it, but they were always a
> bit suspect... yup, the chief of the gods had a few skeletons in the
> wardrobe)
>
> Generally, Spike is right about the Viking disdain about magic. It might be
> dangerous and worth fearing, but since a proper Viking warrior ignores fear,
> you should charge in anyway. As one of the heroes said, a good sword beats
> most magic.

I do not have Anders's insider perspective :-), but as an enthusiastic
amateur in Nordic studies I must say that this reflect very accurately
my own views on the subject.

-- 
Stefano Vaj


From spike66 at att.net  Fri Nov 30 19:12:40 2012
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2012 11:12:40 -0800
Subject: [ExI] ...
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armgUnfcsD1fN4aBxTBC6cNAKjuU_46p-Ax4qOkS8vT4yoA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1354288476.63592.BPMail_high_noncarrier@web163403.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
 <CAL_armgUnfcsD1fN4aBxTBC6cNAKjuU_46p-Ax4qOkS8vT4yoA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <019701cdcf2e$ab8de1e0$02a9a5a0$@att.net>


>... On Behalf Of BillK
Subject: Re: [ExI] ...

>...Links to Ukrainian work at home SCAM site

>...Looks like Jose' yahoo mail account has been compromised.

>...BillK
_______________________________________________


Was that what that was?  I just assumed the commies had figured out
capitalism.  I was so proud of them!  {8^D

spike



From atymes at gmail.com  Fri Nov 30 19:03:40 2012
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2012 11:03:40 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Do robot cars need ethics as well?
In-Reply-To: <CAPoR7a7uqiT8_CSedOdznedJQcb6O7k37dx569XBzMBF_cBGUQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armiLLy7WiExdZpg_bYb7HWEjNHSGBykzSdxsD6eruCFDkw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQuHh3N_WpKXQePyRbL1yvfRsu4jUfKOLwpoS1bdMWdXQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armizz3s+8sPWntjYCHrjUssGo2nepLKAk5W-HRQr9xkbCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNTc2rjQvuXAmxAe8xh-iwa3R8Ex2RqqTZ8_sReyahLbnw@mail.gmail.com>
 <50B7EEF6.6040402@aleph.se>
 <CAPoR7a7uqiT8_CSedOdznedJQcb6O7k37dx569XBzMBF_cBGUQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNRGdAvvSEmcsCss3EJO8nSfNzsn13sfqpRO5pc8ERVR+A@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Nov 30, 2012 at 10:25 AM, Stefano Vaj <stefano.vaj at gmail.com> wrote:
> An "intelligent" car need not have more ethical software in its
> programming than a corkscrew

This comment got me imagining a wine bottle opening robot
programmed by a wine snob, who believed that issues of
which wine to serve with which courses and who to serve
which types of wine to were in fact ethical issues.  ;)

Then again, there is a Flash game that lets you mix
simulated drinks, and renders judgment on their quality in a
fashion that could be interpreted as moral judgment.


From moulton at moulton.com  Fri Nov 30 22:14:15 2012
From: moulton at moulton.com (F. C. Moulton)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2012 14:14:15 -0800
Subject: [ExI] ANNOUNCE: Humanity+ @ San Francisco Conference Dec 1-2
In-Reply-To: <001b01cdb3d7$98cdb110$ca691330$@natasha.cc>
References: <001b01cdb3d7$98cdb110$ca691330$@natasha.cc>
Message-ID: <50B92FB7.2060303@moulton.com>

Also there is a related event at Borderlands Books in San Francisco
Friday Nov 30 starting 5:00PM.  Presenters are
Ramez Naam
Annalee Newitz
Max More
Natasha Vita-More
James Hughes

Note this is a no charge event however you are required to have a
ticket.  Details at:
http://2012.humanityplus.org/program/bookstore-event/

Fred


On 10/26/2012 05:11 PM, Natasha Vita-More wrote:
> ****
> 
> December 1-2, San Francisco State University  *?Writing the Future?*
> 
>  
> We have a great lineup of speakers including: Kim Stanley Robinson,
> Sonia Arrison, Jamais Casio, Max More, PJ Manney, RU Sirius, Randal
> Koene and Natasha Vita-More! Skyping in are David Brin and Ben
> Goertzel!  And a special tribute to Ray Kurzweil?s new book!
> 
>  
> 
> Conference website:  http://2012.humanityplus.org/
> 
> *GET YOUR TICKETS! <http://2012.humanityplus.org/tickets/>  *
> 
> Announcement: http://www.kurzweilai.net/humanity-san-francisco
> 
> *Promo Video!
> <%5b5:05:21%20PM%5d%20Adam%20Ford:%20http:/www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0ZjPR7nTk4>*
> 
> Facebook page: http://www.facebook.com/events/509264069102231/?fref=ts
> 
> Venue: http://2012.humanityplus.org/venue/
> 
> Lodging suggestion: http://2012.humanityplus.org/lodging/  (you must
> secure your room by November 7 to get the discount rate!)
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> 


-- 
F. C. Moulton
moulton at moulton.com