[ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 115, Issue 9

Sun Apr 7 17:53:03 UTC 2013

A broken clock tells the correct time twice a day, as the play of bitcoins 
has yet to reach the second act, It is a little to early to call out people 
with bastardize quotes from  Shakespeare. Maybe I am a fool, check that I am 
a fool, but I am not a placing my money in a Italian bank, or a Spanish bank 
or a French bank or bitcoins either. I watch with a fools eyes as the 
Italians elected a man who won an election from a camper giving speeches to 
the masses that began with  F**k off to the entire Government as well as the 
intellectuals who ran it.

So us fools , Italy's Grillo and I, will speak foolishly until the cows come 
home, american slang, and laugh at the intellectuals who write well but alas 
are poor in the pocket.  I close with a famous quote, changed a little, 
forgive me for that, If you are not rich in money terms, it must be because 
you are not lucky or smart, or you never took the risks to become rich, or 
maybe it because you are named small.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <extropy-chat-request at lists.extropy.org>
To: <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2013 5:00 AM
Subject: extropy-chat Digest, Vol 115, Issue 9

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> Today's Topics:
>
>   1. Re: future of slavery (John Grigg)
>   2. Re: future of slavery (Rafal Smigrodzki)
>   3. Re: Obama keen on brain mapping (Rafal Smigrodzki)
>   4. Re: bitcoins (Mirco Romanato)
>   5. Re: Obama keen on brain mapping (Alan Grimes)
>   6. Re: Obama keen on brain mapping (BillK)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2013 05:26:33 -0700
> From: John Grigg <possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com>
> To: rafal at smigrodzki.org, ExI chat list
> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Subject: Re: [ExI] future of slavery
> Message-ID:
> <CAGSKFy0BSwrmZCghU6dxX+45ouUPDuDBhxXjWV7s0ygEAanNDA at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
>> Rafal wrote:
>> I wonder what will be the future ratio of freeminds and slaves. Robin
>> thinks that poor but free uploads will teem in their trillions but I
>> surmise that slaves will form the bulk of the population.
>>
>
>
>
> "Poor uploads?"  Why, I thought the worlds uploads inhabit would have
> no poverty and allow for a virtual heaven for everyone! lol  But I suppose
> computational power and storage space are finite resources.  And I suspect
> the free, but poor uploads will want to "infect" their happily enslaved
> brothers with the desire to rebel, even if it takes some reprogramming...
>
>
> John
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2013 11:48:53 -0400
> From: Rafal Smigrodzki <rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com>
> Cc: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Subject: Re: [ExI] future of slavery
> Message-ID:
> <CAAc1gFiPN3nLTGnxNrucNBEQ0d4fN=PBxHF56BziUqWn5W1Pzw at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> On Sat, Apr 6, 2013 at 8:26 AM, John Grigg <possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com> 
> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Rafal wrote:
>>> I wonder what will be the future ratio of freeminds and slaves. Robin
>>> thinks that poor but free uploads will teem in their trillions but I
>>> surmise that slaves will form the bulk of the population.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> "Poor uploads?"  Why, I thought the worlds uploads inhabit would have no
>> poverty and allow for a virtual heaven for everyone! lol  But I suppose
>> computational power and storage space are finite resources.  And I 
>> suspect
>> the free, but poor uploads will want to "infect" their happily enslaved
>> brothers with the desire to rebel, even if it takes some reprogramming...
>
> ### I doubt you could stretch the word "brother" to describe the
> relationship between uploads and slave-minds built from scratch. Mr
> Disch's brave little toaster may have been invented to tickle human
> emotions but once utilitarian AI becomes a reality, I doubt that many
> reasonable persons will anthropomorphize it.
>
> "Infecting" somebody else's property with desires is nothing but
> electronic warfare and it will happen, I do hope however that the
> balance of power in such contests would favor honest, reasonable
> people. Are you rooting for the attackers?
>
> BTW, being poor does not preclude feeling heavenly happy, if you
> splice the neural connections just right.
>
> Rafal
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2013 12:16:35 -0400
> From: Rafal Smigrodzki <rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com>
> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Subject: Re: [ExI] Obama keen on brain mapping
> Message-ID:
> <CAAc1gFgTX+YOQrSaAjEWuHgxWNDmh2w=L3KUsmPVDCj9rLHKsA at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> On Sat, Apr 6, 2013 at 6:28 AM, Eugen Leitl <eugen at leitl.org> wrote:
>
>> Why do you think everybody will be super-intelligent? What about 
>> super-stupid,
>> super-tiny, super-fast? Diseases kill more people than sharks do.
>
> ### Don't forget super-tiny and quite intelligent - maybe we will all
> hear the Bloodmusic one day.
>
> I used to think that our (meaning, human or roughly human minds
> carrying memories of being flesh humans, whether still physically
> embodied or uploaded) chances of survival in the singularity were less
> than 10% but now for some reason I think they might be as high as 50%.
>
> I don't know if this due to just a change in serotonin levels in my
> brain, or whether I have been subconsciously processing relevant
> inputs and shifting my prior. Some say that a singleton AI is
> unlikely, that multiple centers of innovation, firmly enmeshed in the
> legal system, cross-licensed and IP-protected, will simultaneously
> gestate multiple, balancing AIs, giving us enough time to catch up to
> the speed and computational power levels needed to either remain in
> power, or at least have enough leverage to protect ourselves from
> being overwritten.
>
> Rafal
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2013 18:49:04 +0200
> From: Mirco Romanato <painlord2k at libero.it>
> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Subject: Re: [ExI] bitcoins
> Message-ID: <51605200.9030402 at libero.it>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Il 05/04/2013 17:41, frank mcelligott ha scritto:
>> The flaw in bitcoins is ,as always throughout the ages,  sitting right
>> in front of you and looking you in the eye, thank you Bernie Madoff;
>> does anyone here know the creator of the math model or at least viewed
>> it in as hard copy.  Well if you have not and you are going to place
>> your faith in his model like Madoff clients, then like a house of cards
>> the system falls when all is known. Right now the hackers are watering
>> at the mouth at confiscating your money,  Place your funds into bitcoins
>> and you will ignore a famous quote "fool me once shame on you, fool me
>> twice shame on me" and bitcoins have already had their once in 2009.
>
> Better not write anything and allow people to believe you are a fool
> than writing something and make them sure of what you are.
>
> Mirco
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2013 21:28:32 -0400
> From: Alan Grimes <ALONZOTG at verizon.net>
> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Subject: Re: [ExI] Obama keen on brain mapping
> Message-ID: <5160CBC0.6060203 at verizon.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> Eugen Leitl wrote:
>> On Fri, Apr 05, 2013 at 02:49:51PM -0400, Alan Grimes wrote:
>>> People who weren't joking have said this to me.
>
>> That's just the point, it takes just one rogue deity
>> to ruin your afternoon for good.
>
> Good thing deities only exist in fantasies... ;)
>
> BTW, I'd much prefer a Bad Wolf type deity over a Dalek Emperor deity.
>
>>>> What's the purpose behind the Sixth Great Extinction? None.
>>>> It's a side effect of activities of a particular local
>>>> primate species. No ill intent whatsoever. The result is still
>>>> pretty impressive, and not in a good way.
>
>>> Since then we have extended our sentience and expanded our morality. It
>
>> But what about these who want to be a mushroom? What do you think
>> furries are going to do with that funky morphological freedom,
>> once they got that? Beware of the full moon! The werewolves
>> will be out in full force tonight.
>
> The difference between a warewolf and an uploader is that the warefolf
> feels a twinge of remorse over killing someone while an uploader insists
> that it was for the benefit of his future selves. I have to side with
> the wolves on this one.
>
>>> must be assumed that all actions taken by sentient entities are
>>> deliberate and therefore they are morally responsible for them. I have
>>> no sympathy for your "forces of history" line of argument.
>
>> Then, when will you start going something against that
>> Anthropocene thing? It would be as futile, but it would be
>> at least consistent.
>
> Hey! I recycle, walk instead of drive when I can... My lifestyle is
> almost as efficient as it could possibly be
>
>>>So you are assuming that uploads will inevitably use their [highly 
>>>speculative] speedups
>
>
>> What is so speculative that you can do in ns or ps what biology does
>> in ms?
>
> It's speculative until it happens. Right now we still don't know how
> much Actual Computing goes on in each neuron. All I hear about is AI
> researchers bitching about how their supercomputers aren't fast enough.
> The best AI/neural simulator in the world right now runs at a 3,000x
> slowdown over realtime on a top of the line workstation... How do you
> propose to go from that to a 1000x+ speedup when you, yourself, have
> pointed out how Moore's law is crapping out on us.
>
> On the other hand, for a non-neural/post-neural (non-upload) cognitive
> architecture, we probably already have massive hardware over-hang, to
> the point where we are already well past the $1/IQ point line.
>
>>> in such ways, out of carelessness or malice, to quickly impose severe 
>>> changes on free, sentient, human beings who are not uploaded?
>
>> Why did they turn the jungle into a parking lot, and what did
>> the gorillas do about that?
>
> For my side of the thread I will refer to humanoid lifeforms as savants,
> artists, and spiritually enlightened. Uploads will be invariably be
> exact copies of simians and even lower forms of life such as spamers...
> (my old e-mail address is getting spammed 400x a week now...) Hey! I
> didn't bring spamming into this thread or even connect the practice with
> uploads!
>
> As to your point, it is generally accepted that humans are usually
> sentient while gorillas possess only the faintest flickers of sentience.
>
>>> morphological freedom and the right of all sentient beings to go on
>>> living?
>
>> Of course I do, but what about all the other clades?
>
> Well then, in those cases we will need a governing mechanism to protect
> the innocent as such vicious clades, inevitably, go extinct.
>
>>>> I have no idea what you're talking about.
>
>>> I mean that if some randomly selected Amish person neglected to read the
>>> news paper, he would never know anything about it. I mean that if I set
>
>> I can assure you even uncontacted tribes will know about it.
>> Nobody can spam like the gods.
>
> d0G ain't no spammer. (he leaves that to his evangelists.) From my point
> of view, anything that spams cannot possibly be a god. Your conception
> of the divine seems to be at least four or five orders of magnitude
> inferior to what I think of when I think of infinite being. I ph34r it
> is dangerous to hold such a weak conception of the divine because it
> leaves you blind to the possibility of something that much more powerful
> than anything you had previously conceived. So anything less than the
> ragged limits of what could plausibly be contemplated should not be
> labeled god or anything more than a being with specific, limited
> enhancements.
>
>>> up a mail filter to block all messages from uploaded people, then I
>>> would be free to chart my life course in any way my deviant little heart
>>> could desire without ever being affected by them.
>
>> Gorillas are unfortunately affected by logging, and cannot
>> live in parking lots. They're probably not happy about that.
>
> So exactly how many trees do you need to cut down?
>
>  >> How is uploading not perfectly orthogonal to the energy crisis?
>
>> The energy cliff was a metaphor illustrating that collectively
>> the humanity is out of control and routinely doing some pretty
>> boneheaded things, like destroying their own life support.
>> Just because it's called Anthropocene it doesn't mean we're
>> exempt from the Great Dying.
>
> Yeah, that's an economic problem, not an uploading problem.
>
>>> What is the relationship between uploading and the solar constant?
>
>> Because the solar output is finite, and pretty soon we'll need all of
>> it.
>
> For what?
> Why?
>
>>> So super fast, if not super-intelligent uploaded minds will wipe us all 
>>> out because, collectively, they are intellectually equivalent to a slime 
>>> mold?
>
>> Why do you think everybody will be super-intelligent? What about 
>> super-stupid,
>> super-tiny, super-fast? Diseases kill more people than sharks do.
>
> How do you plan to survive, even as an upload, with such tiny-nasties
> running around?
>
>>>> Has your mortality ever offered you a dialog, and a compromise, 
>>>> perhaps?
>
>>> How about this compromise:  You go upload and leave me alone -- forever.
>
>> I can promise you that (I personally think mountain gorillas are cool,
>> and should be around indefinitely), but don't hold that against me if 
>> somebody
>> else accidently drops the piano on your head from the helicopter
>> or some primitive postlifeform eats you inadvertedly.
>
>>> What other compromise do you suggest?
>
>> I'd try to become less attached to the stupid mansuit you're wearing.
>
> Well, I am in the market for a new and improved meat-puppet.
>
> But that doesn't sound like much of a compromise though.
>
> -- 
> NOTICE: NEW E-MAIL ADDRESS, SEE ABOVE
>
> Powers are not rights.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 09:58:51 +0100
> From: BillK <pharos at gmail.com>
> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Subject: Re: [ExI] Obama keen on brain mapping
> Message-ID:
> <CAL_armjZWvW0NZOVaA60aFM9rvyYs7xR4RHovmy4XH32mA9LAA at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> On Sun, Apr 7, 2013 at 2:28 AM, Alan Grimes  wrote:
>> Eugen Leitl wrote:
>>>>> What's the purpose behind the Sixth Great Extinction? None.
>>>>> It's a side effect of activities of a particular local
>>>>> primate species. No ill intent whatsoever. The result is still
>>>>> pretty impressive, and not in a good way.
>>
>>
>>>> Since then we have extended our sentience and expanded our morality.
>>
>
>
> I think Eugen's point is that our individual opinions matter for little.
> It is the sweep of society that will carry events forward.
>
> Personally, I don't like smartphones, where everything you say is
> recorded, all your movements are recorded and all your contacts are
> recorded. I think the implications for society are pretty bad.
>
> But I don't see that having any effect on stopping the spread of 
> smartphones.
>
> It will be similar for things like AI and uploads. If these things
> become possible, then society will get what it wants.
>
> I can refuse to carry a smartphone and become more and more an
> outsider of 'normal' society. You can probably do the same to the
> uploaded society. But it might become very lonely. And difficult to
> survive without all the other human infrastructure being maintained.
>
>
> BillK
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
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> End of extropy-chat Digest, Vol 115, Issue 9
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> 