From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Jul  1 01:17:27 2013
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike)
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2013 18:17:27 -0700
Subject: [ExI] good news bad news for germans
In-Reply-To: <51D0C5E1.8000806@aleph.se>
References: <003b01ce75a6$cad264d0$60772e70$@rainier66.com>
 <51D0C5E1.8000806@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <006c01ce75f8$c07fc020$417f4060$@rainier66.com>


>... On Behalf Of Anders Sandberg
Subject: Re: [ExI] good news bad news for germans

>...And conversely, TeliaSonera International Carrier is a Tier 1 internet
backbone with headquarters in Stockholm. By law the Swedish Defence Radio
Authority can warrantlessly wiretap all telephone and Internet traffic that
crosses Sweden's borders. But don't worry, they only act in the national
interest... -- Dr Anders Sandberg
_______________________________________________

It can safely be said that the framers of the US constitution did not
foresee the internet.  If they put into place restrictions on the federal
government surveillance of its people, no such restriction forbids them from
trading for the data from the German government, and providing in exchange
US surveillance of the German people.  In the internet age, there is no
hiding.  The only thing that surprises me in all this is that we saw it
coming fifteen years ago and did nothing.  We just walked right into it.  

We now have a situation where the citizen cannot hide anything, but the
governments, all of them, can hide everything.  The IRS gives the fed an
easy end-run around all our constitutional rights, for it can call any
citizen in for an audit for no reason, can deal out any punishment, fine or
sentence without having to provide evidence or justification to any
oversight commission, and if called upon to defend its actions, even by the
congress, it may invoke the fifth amendment rights and thus avoid testimony.

Orwell wrote about this in 1949, but we walked right into it.  We learned
not one goddam thing from that man's astute foresights and insights.

Note that the IRS has been caught in all this, and nothing is happening;
there are no adverse consequences for the power abusers, none.  The
offending director is on paid leave.  Now a second IRS director has invoked
the fifth; as punishment he has been given an indefinite paid vacation.  We
walked right into this.  We have no one to blame but ourselves.

spike  




From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Jul  1 03:48:39 2013
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike)
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2013 20:48:39 -0700
Subject: [ExI] 23andme again
In-Reply-To: <003401ce7415$a52b32d0$ef819870$@rainier66.com>
References: <51CB00B9.1010404@libero.it>
 <000c01ce7296$58bee750$0a3cb5f0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAOJFdb+b4mE62CpXstRJr9JWXWjvqWa0Q9xoyGyxxKvhJeHjdQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <000301ce72d2$323277f0$969767d0$@rainier66.com>
 <001f01ce7324$f7c9d6a0$e75d83e0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAOJFdb+Bri3r0wtJ+BY=pZyyUJbOZmxy3PC2W=0q7O+=HwKNcQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <002a01ce7348$0a4c5fa0$1ee51ee0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armggHDoJXnDxVm7WK=FuXSv+fkM0t1gN_CsFgHmOSjPuuA@mail.gmail.com>
 <006d01ce735d$ce8fdad0$6baf9070$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPGs0J_g52uK+hWPkJqrtqYcx_g3gM2+aGG4TSJ69vVSOWBk4w@mail.gmail.com>
 <20130627184859.GK24217@leitl.org>
 <00ac01ce736f$d0fa6d00$72ef4700$@rainier66.com>
 <CAOJFdbLL2DU=vrUERMOG7MhWf=33cecsin3=yDX8FOh+3Wh0dg@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <008401ce760d$dffbda00$9ff38e00$@rainier66.com>



>... On Behalf Of spike
>...Subject: Re: [ExI] 23andme again

>... On Behalf Of Mike Dougherty
Subject: Re: [ExI] 23andme again

On Thu, Jun 27, 2013 at 3:52 PM, spike <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:
>>... It is clear to me now what I should have pondered a bit more to 
>>start with: 23andMe empowers people and governments... spike

>...Thank you for sharing your buyer's remorse... Mike
_______________________________________________


Daaaaaaaam!   It's happened again!  And this time it was an accident.

23andMe gives you a list of DNA relatives sorted by how close they are
genetically.  It also gives you a list sorted by what they call "enrichment"
which divides thru by how common is the name.

New people have been coming into 23 on a regular basis.  Yesterday a new
person showed up way high up in my list: he is my second closest relative on
23andMe, probably a third cousin, possibly second.  I went over to the
enrichment page and saw that right when he showed up, two names of which I
know are related and how they are related moved way up.  They had been in
positions 27 and 41, but yesterday they moved into positions 2 and 3.  OK,
that wasn't hard to figure out: he is related to those to names.

So last night I drop the guy a note along the lines of Hi cousin, I see you
are descended from William Yakity Yak and Mary Bla Bla.  This morning I get
a note back saying he doesn't have either of those in his family history
database which goes back four generations.

OK so do I post back and say: Ooops sorry my mistake, or do I post back and
say: Cousin, you have a major error in your genealogy, or do I post back and
say:  Pal, one of your fairly recent ancestors was apparently adopted?

My intuition says to just clam up.

At this point I would reluctantly recommend that if you don't want your life
to get crazy, don't do 23andMe.

spike



From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Jul  1 05:54:22 2013
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike)
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2013 22:54:22 -0700
Subject: [ExI] 23andme again
In-Reply-To: <008401ce760d$dffbda00$9ff38e00$@rainier66.com>
References: <51CB00B9.1010404@libero.it>
 <000c01ce7296$58bee750$0a3cb5f0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAOJFdb+b4mE62CpXstRJr9JWXWjvqWa0Q9xoyGyxxKvhJeHjdQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <000301ce72d2$323277f0$969767d0$@rainier66.com>
 <001f01ce7324$f7c9d6a0$e75d83e0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAOJFdb+Bri3r0wtJ+BY=pZyyUJbOZmxy3PC2W=0q7O+=HwKNcQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <002a01ce7348$0a4c5fa0$1ee51ee0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armggHDoJXnDxVm7WK=FuXSv+fkM0t1gN_CsFgHmOSjPuuA@mail.gmail.com>
 <006d01ce735d$ce8fdad0$6baf9070$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPGs0J_g52uK+hWPkJqrtqYcx_g3gM2+aGG4TSJ69vVSOWBk4w@mail.gmail.com>
 <20130627184859.GK24217@leitl.org>
 <00ac01ce736f$d0fa6d00$72ef4700$@rainier66.com>
 <CAOJFdbLL2DU=vrUERMOG7MhWf=33cecsin3=yDX8FOh+3Wh0dg@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <008b01ce761f$6fc72930$4f557b90$@rainier66.com>


>... On Behalf Of spike
Subject: Re: [ExI] 23andme again
_______________________________________________


>...Daaaaaaaam!   It's happened again!  And this time it was an accident.
...
>...At this point I would reluctantly recommend that if you don't want your
life to get crazy, don't do 23andMe...spike
_______________________________________________

Alternately, you have the option of not responding to any 23-mail.

After what I have been thru, I make the following prediction: 23andMe will
eventually end up being shut down by a tsunami of lawsuits.  I do not regret
that I did 23andMe, but in retrospect, I probably would have done it
completely anonymously and would never have responded to any 23-mail.  Even
then, I don't know if anonymous non-response is the right thing to do.  I am
open to suggestion.

Yet another belated realization: just as I am getting better at extracting
information from just what is currently public on 23andMe, it is easy to
extrapolate forward and realize that once the power of capitalism gets
behind it, the medical discoveries will come fast, and the discoveries will
be in the hands of medical insurance companies.  They will figure out ways
to study the information publicly available and how to correlate it with
known diseases.  This will lead them to offer discounts to those who agree
to submitting DNA.  The result of that will be increased insurance costs for
those who do not submit the DNA, for the insurance company will need to
assume that you privately did your own testing and that you know something
the insurance company doesn't know.  You will have no way of proving you
didn't do genetic testing.  Eventually even those companies which offer
insurance to non-DNA submitters will realize that this is a fool's bet, and
will want out of the biz. 

All these ethical dilemmas just make me too crazy.  I decided against
medical school because I am no good at ethical dilemmas.  Aerospace
engineering is blessedly free of that.  With this 23 jazz, I accidently
signed up for a pile of them.  Understatement: I paid 99 bucks for a deep
pile of ethical dilemmas.  What a bargain, sheesh. 

spike 



From atymes at gmail.com  Mon Jul  1 06:09:10 2013
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2013 23:09:10 -0700
Subject: [ExI] 23andme again
In-Reply-To: <008401ce760d$dffbda00$9ff38e00$@rainier66.com>
References: <51CB00B9.1010404@libero.it>
 <000c01ce7296$58bee750$0a3cb5f0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAOJFdb+b4mE62CpXstRJr9JWXWjvqWa0Q9xoyGyxxKvhJeHjdQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <000301ce72d2$323277f0$969767d0$@rainier66.com>
 <001f01ce7324$f7c9d6a0$e75d83e0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAOJFdb+Bri3r0wtJ+BY=pZyyUJbOZmxy3PC2W=0q7O+=HwKNcQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <002a01ce7348$0a4c5fa0$1ee51ee0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armggHDoJXnDxVm7WK=FuXSv+fkM0t1gN_CsFgHmOSjPuuA@mail.gmail.com>
 <006d01ce735d$ce8fdad0$6baf9070$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPGs0J_g52uK+hWPkJqrtqYcx_g3gM2+aGG4TSJ69vVSOWBk4w@mail.gmail.com>
 <20130627184859.GK24217@leitl.org>
 <00ac01ce736f$d0fa6d00$72ef4700$@rainier66.com>
 <CAOJFdbLL2DU=vrUERMOG7MhWf=33cecsin3=yDX8FOh+3Wh0dg@mail.gmail.com>
 <003401ce7415$a52b32d0$ef819870$@rainier66.com>
 <008401ce760d$dffbda00$9ff38e00$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNQFJNmULCYqarKS-M7fLxVPwm-C4mNeof0+0r-JzEB3mw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jun 30, 2013 at 8:48 PM, spike <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:

> At this point I would reluctantly recommend that if you don't want your
> life
> to get crazy, don't do 23andMe.
>

For people like you and me, crazy lives are a given.
23andMe is just a specific vector.

As to this case - are you sure you have the right
person, and not just a name that could be used
by someone else (which someone else has the
genes and ancestry you're looking for)?
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From anders at aleph.se  Mon Jul  1 08:56:31 2013
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2013 09:56:31 +0100
Subject: [ExI] good news bad news for germans
In-Reply-To: <006c01ce75f8$c07fc020$417f4060$@rainier66.com>
References: <003b01ce75a6$cad264d0$60772e70$@rainier66.com>
 <51D0C5E1.8000806@aleph.se> <006c01ce75f8$c07fc020$417f4060$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <51D1443F.5040500@aleph.se>

On 2013-07-01 02:17, spike wrote:
> The only thing that surprises me in all this is that we saw it coming 
> fifteen years ago and did nothing. We just walked right into it.

I just came back from a workshop on governing slowly devloping risks at 
the International Risk Governance Council, and I think this is generic: 
it takes special conditions for enough of the right people to sit up and 
take action.

In particular, it doesn't seem to work well if there are vested 
interests on different sides. The Grand Banks cod fisheries and climate 
change have turned into messes because of opposing interests, while Y2K 
got fixed. Surveillance and constitutional erosion unfortunately also 
had the multiple interests case.

-- 
Dr Anders Sandberg
Future of Humanity Institute
Oxford Martin School
Oxford University



From eugen at leitl.org  Mon Jul  1 10:59:37 2013
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2013 12:59:37 +0200
Subject: [ExI] good news bad news for germans
In-Reply-To: <003b01ce75a6$cad264d0$60772e70$@rainier66.com>
References: <003b01ce75a6$cad264d0$60772e70$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <20130701105937.GA24217@leitl.org>

On Sun, Jun 30, 2013 at 08:30:45AM -0700, spike wrote:
> Eugen, the good news is that the German government is not tapping your phone
> calls.
> 
> The bad news is.
> 
> http://news.yahoo.com/u-taps-half-billion-german-phone-internet-links-093938
> 180.html

As a late first/second-gen cypherpunk and long-term student of
NSA history I continue to be amused by mainstream press reports
which take recent revelations as something a) new b) you can take 
verbatim, without a giant grain of salt.

However, I welcome such opportunities to wean users from
the teat of TeH Great GooG, and cloud in general. E.g. over
at Zero State we've moved over everything to a virtual
server hosted in Iceland, and everything else to P2P
(Retroshare et al.).

The legislative has failed, cryptography so far hasn't.


From painlord2k at libero.it  Mon Jul  1 12:47:41 2013
From: painlord2k at libero.it (Mirco Romanato)
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2013 14:47:41 +0200
Subject: [ExI] 23andme again
In-Reply-To: <008401ce760d$dffbda00$9ff38e00$@rainier66.com>
References: <51CB00B9.1010404@libero.it>
 <000c01ce7296$58bee750$0a3cb5f0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAOJFdb+b4mE62CpXstRJr9JWXWjvqWa0Q9xoyGyxxKvhJeHjdQ@mail.gmail.com>
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 <008401ce760d$dffbda00$9ff38e00$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <51D17A6D.9060503@libero.it>

Il 01/07/2013 05:48, spike ha scritto:

> Daaaaaaaam!   It's happened again!  And this time it was an accident.

> 23andMe gives you a list of DNA relatives sorted by how close they are
> genetically.  It also gives you a list sorted by what they call "enrichment"
> which divides thru by how common is the name.

> So last night I drop the guy a note along the lines of Hi cousin, I see you
> are descended from William Yakity Yak and Mary Bla Bla.  This morning I get
> a note back saying he doesn't have either of those in his family history
> database which goes back four generations.

> OK so do I post back and say: Ooops sorry my mistake, or do I post back and
> say: Cousin, you have a major error in your genealogy, or do I post back and
> say:  Pal, one of your fairly recent ancestors was apparently adopted?

I suggest the:

Maybe 23andMe is wrong or there is an error in my or your genealogy.
What could be?
Do you want try to exchange data?

> My intuition says to just clam up.

The truth will make you free(er).
As you didn't anything evil or wrong, what's the problem with the true?

> At this point I would reluctantly recommend that if you don't want your life
> to get crazy, don't do 23andMe.

Crazy in this way appear good or, at least, interesting. Maybe a bit
overwhelming at first.

Just until a few weeks ago you talked about Neanderthal gathering to
look at similarity and to look at non-Neanderthal gatherings for
differences.

Think about a reunion of all Pocahontas descendants, or all descendants
of George Washington.
How funny would be all the hidden branches showed off?

Mirco


From pharos at gmail.com  Mon Jul  1 13:23:43 2013
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2013 14:23:43 +0100
Subject: [ExI] 23andme again
In-Reply-To: <51D17A6D.9060503@libero.it>
References: <51CB00B9.1010404@libero.it>
 <000c01ce7296$58bee750$0a3cb5f0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAOJFdb+b4mE62CpXstRJr9JWXWjvqWa0Q9xoyGyxxKvhJeHjdQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <000301ce72d2$323277f0$969767d0$@rainier66.com>
 <001f01ce7324$f7c9d6a0$e75d83e0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAOJFdb+Bri3r0wtJ+BY=pZyyUJbOZmxy3PC2W=0q7O+=HwKNcQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <002a01ce7348$0a4c5fa0$1ee51ee0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armggHDoJXnDxVm7WK=FuXSv+fkM0t1gN_CsFgHmOSjPuuA@mail.gmail.com>
 <006d01ce735d$ce8fdad0$6baf9070$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPGs0J_g52uK+hWPkJqrtqYcx_g3gM2+aGG4TSJ69vVSOWBk4w@mail.gmail.com>
 <20130627184859.GK24217@leitl.org>
 <00ac01ce736f$d0fa6d00$72ef4700$@rainier66.com>
 <CAOJFdbLL2DU=vrUERMOG7MhWf=33cecsin3=yDX8FOh+3Wh0dg@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAL_armitd=0WYzvyi=tgN3vmxMpjjmiEQrWHYdJBCcEM_TQG8w@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jul 1, 2013 at 1:47 PM, Mirco Romanato wrote:
> The truth will make you free(er).
> As you didn't anything evil or wrong, what's the problem with the true?
>
> Crazy in this way appear good or, at least, interesting. Maybe a bit
> overwhelming at first.
>

The difficulty is that human society is dependent on lies for survival.
We can't get through the day without lying.

'Does my bum look big in this?'.
'What speed were you going at?'.
'Do you think Sharon is the best person for this job?'.
etc. up to really serious lies about life and death.

This is especially true in families. All families have secrets that
are never mentioned in order to keep the peace. The theory being that
the family must stick together, even when some members are not of
particularly good character.

Broadcasting the truth could cause the breakup of families. Feuds
happen often enough anyway, without added disruption.

BillK


From alito at organicrobot.com  Mon Jul  1 13:30:58 2013
From: alito at organicrobot.com (Alejandro Dubrovsky)
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2013 23:30:58 +1000
Subject: [ExI] 23andme again
In-Reply-To: <51D17A6D.9060503@libero.it>
References: <51CB00B9.1010404@libero.it>
 <000c01ce7296$58bee750$0a3cb5f0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAOJFdb+b4mE62CpXstRJr9JWXWjvqWa0Q9xoyGyxxKvhJeHjdQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <000301ce72d2$323277f0$969767d0$@rainier66.com>
 <001f01ce7324$f7c9d6a0$e75d83e0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAOJFdb+Bri3r0wtJ+BY=pZyyUJbOZmxy3PC2W=0q7O+=HwKNcQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <002a01ce7348$0a4c5fa0$1ee51ee0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armggHDoJXnDxVm7WK=FuXSv+fkM0t1gN_CsFgHmOSjPuuA@mail.gmail.com>
 <006d01ce735d$ce8fdad0$6baf9070$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPGs0J_g52uK+hWPkJqrtqYcx_g3gM2+aGG4TSJ69vVSOWBk4w@mail.gmail.com>
 <20130627184859.GK24217@leitl.org>
 <00ac01ce736f$d0fa6d00$72ef4700$@rainier66.com>
 <CAOJFdbLL2DU=vrUERMOG7MhWf=33cecsin3=yDX8FOh+3Wh0dg@mail.gmail.com>
 <003401ce7415$a52b32d0$ef819870$@rainier66.com>
 <008401ce760d$dffbda00$9ff38e00$@rainier66.com> <51D17A6D.9060503@libero.it>
Message-ID: <51D18492.1060002@organicrobot.com>

On 01/07/13 22:47, Mirco Romanato wrote:
> Il 01/07/2013 05:48, spike ha scritto:
> 
>> Daaaaaaaam!   It's happened again!  And this time it was an accident.
> 
>> 23andMe gives you a list of DNA relatives sorted by how close they are
>> genetically.  It also gives you a list sorted by what they call "enrichment"
>> which divides thru by how common is the name.
> 
>> So last night I drop the guy a note along the lines of Hi cousin, I see you
>> are descended from William Yakity Yak and Mary Bla Bla.  This morning I get
>> a note back saying he doesn't have either of those in his family history
>> database which goes back four generations.
> 
>> OK so do I post back and say: Ooops sorry my mistake, or do I post back and
>> say: Cousin, you have a major error in your genealogy, or do I post back and
>> say:  Pal, one of your fairly recent ancestors was apparently adopted?
> 
> I suggest the:
> 
> Maybe 23andMe is wrong or there is an error in my or your genealogy.
> What could be?
> Do you want try to exchange data?
> 

I think the possibility that 23andme is "in error" should be considered
seriously, not just as a method of releasing information on unsuspecting
relatives. I put the quotes around "in error" because I mean not just
lab-handling errors, but historical anomalies that make genetic tests
indicate closer kinship distance than there is in reality ***.

For example, it is well known (TM) that most of the relationships shown
on 23andme for Ashkenazis are rubbish due to the deep inbreeding in that
group. eg from their blog
http://blog.23andme.com/news/announcements/how-many-relatives-do-you-have/,
they say "we estimate that any two randomly chosen individuals who
identify as Ashkenazi are on average the genomic equivalent of 4th-5th
cousins, because they share many recent common ancestor". 23andme will
list scores of 2nd cousins which you are pretty sure are nowhere near
that close.

My guess is that there is likely to be other groups that are similarly
affected. Any geographically isolated community, or any small,
long-lasting religious group should show similar effects.

*** reality here is probably the wrong term, but I assume that, for most
people, someone that, due to historical reasons, shares the same amount
of genetic material as a second cousin doesn't have the same emotional
or gossip-al power as someone you share a great-grandmother with.


From painlord2k at libero.it  Mon Jul  1 13:51:28 2013
From: painlord2k at libero.it (Mirco Romanato)
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2013 15:51:28 +0200
Subject: [ExI] 23andme again
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armitd=0WYzvyi=tgN3vmxMpjjmiEQrWHYdJBCcEM_TQG8w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <51CB00B9.1010404@libero.it>
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Message-ID: <51D18960.3030503@libero.it>

Il 01/07/2013 15:23, BillK ha scritto:

> The difficulty is that human society is dependent on lies for survival.

Being an advocate for truth, I would choose truth over society.
If society is so dependent on lies to survive, maybe it should not
survive and will not survive anyway.

> We can't get through the day without lying.

> 'Does my bum look big in this?'.

> 'What speed were you going at?'.

> 'Do you think Sharon is the best person for this job?'.
> etc. up to really serious lies about life and death.

Maybe this is just cultural, maybe genetic.
But the level of frankness in public and private discourses in Italy is
a bit higher than in the US ( the Anglosphere in general).
Maybe is a reaction to the total hypocrisy in the political discourses.

> This is especially true in families. All families have secrets that
> are never mentioned in order to keep the peace. The theory being that
> the family must stick together, even when some members are not of
> particularly good character.

A frail family I should say, if its secrets can not be spoken in the
privacy of the house.
A strong family will speak them if needed and useful and will not spoke
them when not needed or not useful or harmful.

> Broadcasting the truth could cause the breakup of families. Feuds
> happen often enough anyway, without added disruption.

But, in the end, if broadcasting the truth do not happen, shit will
happen just because the truth was not told.
It is the short-term / long-term gains dilemma.

Mirco


From rolandodegilead at gmail.com  Mon Jul  1 09:35:11 2013
From: rolandodegilead at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Eugenio_Mart=EDnez?=)
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2013 11:35:11 +0200
Subject: [ExI] good news bad news for germans
In-Reply-To: <006c01ce75f8$c07fc020$417f4060$@rainier66.com>
References: <003b01ce75a6$cad264d0$60772e70$@rainier66.com>
 <51D0C5E1.8000806@aleph.se> <006c01ce75f8$c07fc020$417f4060$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CANSO=1nwZctMj3FNV55Ysa3iuPsxsOiL7i_V+B-NLOnrbuetOQ@mail.gmail.com>

>
> Note that the IRS has been caught in all this, and nothing is happening;
> there are no adverse consequences for the power abusers, none.  The
> offending director is on paid leave.  Now a second IRS director has invoked
> the fifth; as punishment he has been given an indefinite paid vacation.  We
> walked right into this.  We have no one to blame but ourselves.
>


I suppose that you have seen this short comic:
http://nosolosoftware.com/huxley-vs-orwell/

The problem is exactly that: No adverse consequences. I see it in my
country and in every European country: No adverse consequences for the ones
who have created the crisis, no adverse consequences for the partys who
have stolen millions. In fact, sometimes is the opposite: In Spain, the
government, the Popular Party (Aznar?s party) has been proved to erase
millions and millions. And they are voted again and again and again. Not
only no adverse consequences but, even prized for them.

And I think that, at least in Europe,  15M is partially to blame for that:
They are seen as a romantic non-violent movement who were tired of the
abuse of the powerful ones, but they were born, in fact, because Ley Sinde
(The Spanish equivalent to Sopa). They do NOTHING but they say that they do
a lot of things. A lot of people saying that they are the change and the
future, so they are neutralizing all other real responses.

There are videos of policemen hitting and hitting again demonstrators whose
only defence is saying "Ey pal, Say no to violence". So policemen, at least
in Europe, Specially in Spain, they are doing whatever they want, because
they can, because there is not going to be a social reaction apart from
demostrators who are going to scream and who are against any kind of
violence of any kind of illegality. Not even civil disobedence.

Sorry for my english.


On Mon, Jul 1, 2013 at 3:17 AM, spike <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:

>
> >... On Behalf Of Anders Sandberg
> Subject: Re: [ExI] good news bad news for germans
>
> >...And conversely, TeliaSonera International Carrier is a Tier 1 internet
> backbone with headquarters in Stockholm. By law the Swedish Defence Radio
> Authority can warrantlessly wiretap all telephone and Internet traffic that
> crosses Sweden's borders. But don't worry, they only act in the national
> interest... -- Dr Anders Sandberg
> _______________________________________________
>
> It can safely be said that the framers of the US constitution did not
> foresee the internet.  If they put into place restrictions on the federal
> government surveillance of its people, no such restriction forbids them
> from
> trading for the data from the German government, and providing in exchange
> US surveillance of the German people.  In the internet age, there is no
> hiding.  The only thing that surprises me in all this is that we saw it
> coming fifteen years ago and did nothing.  We just walked right into it.
>
> We now have a situation where the citizen cannot hide anything, but the
> governments, all of them, can hide everything.  The IRS gives the fed an
> easy end-run around all our constitutional rights, for it can call any
> citizen in for an audit for no reason, can deal out any punishment, fine or
> sentence without having to provide evidence or justification to any
> oversight commission, and if called upon to defend its actions, even by the
> congress, it may invoke the fifth amendment rights and thus avoid
> testimony.
>
> Orwell wrote about this in 1949, but we walked right into it.  We learned
> not one goddam thing from that man's astute foresights and insights.
>
> Note that the IRS has been caught in all this, and nothing is happening;
> there are no adverse consequences for the power abusers, none.  The
> offending director is on paid leave.  Now a second IRS director has invoked
> the fifth; as punishment he has been given an indefinite paid vacation.  We
> walked right into this.  We have no one to blame but ourselves.
>
> spike
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>



-- 
OLVIDATE.DE
Tatachan.com
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From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Jul  1 15:54:36 2013
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike)
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2013 08:54:36 -0700
Subject: [ExI] 23andme again
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armitd=0WYzvyi=tgN3vmxMpjjmiEQrWHYdJBCcEM_TQG8w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <51CB00B9.1010404@libero.it>
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Message-ID: <00d801ce7673$4a346f30$de9d4d90$@rainier66.com>


>... On Behalf Of BillK
Subject: Re: [ExI] 23andme again

On Mon, Jul 1, 2013 at 1:47 PM, Mirco Romanato wrote:

>
>>... The truth will make you free(er).  As you didn't anything evil or
wrong, what's the problem with the true?  Mirco
>

>...The difficulty is that human society is dependent on lies for survival.
We can't get through the day without lying.  ...This is especially true in
families. All families have secrets ...
Broadcasting the truth could cause the breakup of families. Feuds happen
often enough anyway, without added disruption...BillK
_______________________________________________

Of course there is always the possibility of a mistake, as pointed out by
other posters on this topic.  But if a mistake, I don't know how 23andMe
would have known those two particular family names married in 1840 and
produced several children, some of whom cannot be accounted for in later
years.  The fact that those two names moved together to positions 2 and 3 in
one day, the same day that a new person showed up as my second closest DNA
relative on 23 is compelling evidence that either an offspring of that union
produced a child who was adopted out and not told, or that an offspring of
that union fathered a child secretly. 

In any case, I think BillK is right on.  Nature is filled with examples of
wildlife using camouflage and deception, so it should come as no surprise
that human society is deeply dependent on it.  23andMe exposes lies and lays
bare secrets long cherished.

It is my prediction that by whatever mysterious or overt means, 23andMe will
be shut down.  I don't know how, but possibilities include massive waves of
lawsuits from which it must defend even if frivolous, inexplicable IRS
audits, predator drones armed with hellfire missiles, etc.  Society and
government is filled with people dependent on lies and secrecy; judges,
legislators, religious leaders, IRS directors all have the possibility of
illegitimate children too.  It is easy to imagine them working together,
using whatever means available, legal or illegal, to stop 23.  I hope that
23andMe can withstand all the pressures, but I fear it cannot.

Here's how you will know I am right.  Watch for legislation making it
illegal to do health insurance pricing based on DNA.  If that fails, look
for societal pressure in the form of bad PR for any company suspected of
offering health insurance discounts based on DNA sampling.

spike



From painlord2k at libero.it  Mon Jul  1 16:52:39 2013
From: painlord2k at libero.it (Mirco Romanato)
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2013 18:52:39 +0200
Subject: [ExI] 23andme again
In-Reply-To: <00d801ce7673$4a346f30$de9d4d90$@rainier66.com>
References: <51CB00B9.1010404@libero.it>
 <000c01ce7296$58bee750$0a3cb5f0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAOJFdb+b4mE62CpXstRJr9JWXWjvqWa0Q9xoyGyxxKvhJeHjdQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <000301ce72d2$323277f0$969767d0$@rainier66.com>
 <001f01ce7324$f7c9d6a0$e75d83e0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAOJFdb+Bri3r0wtJ+BY=pZyyUJbOZmxy3PC2W=0q7O+=HwKNcQ@mail.gmail.com>
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 <20130627184859.GK24217@leitl.org>
 <00ac01ce736f$d0fa6d00$72ef4700$@rainier66.com>
 <CAOJFdbLL2DU=vrUERMOG7MhWf=33cecsin3=yDX8FOh+3Wh0dg@mail.gmail.com>
 <003401ce7415$a52b32d0$ef819870$@rainier66.com>
 <008401ce760d$dffbda00$9ff38e00$@rainier66.com> <51D17A6D.9060503@libero.it>
 <CAL_armitd=0WYzvyi=tgN3vmxMpjjmiEQrWHYdJBCcEM_TQG8w@mail.gmail.com>
 <00d801ce7673$4a346f30$de9d4d90$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <51D1B3D7.7020606@libero.it>

Il 01/07/2013 17:54, spike ha scritto:

> Of course there is always the possibility of a mistake, as pointed out by
> other posters on this topic.

Usually, hinting the mistake could be your or someone else's is a good
way to lower their defenses and allow communication to happen.

> In any case, I think BillK is right on.  Nature is filled with examples of
> wildlife using camouflage and deception, so it should come as no surprise
> that human society is deeply dependent on it.  23andMe exposes lies and lays
> bare secrets long cherished.

Good.

> It is my prediction that by whatever mysterious or overt means, 23andMe will
> be shut down.

To be substituted by one of many business doing the same from some
island of Caribbeans or from China.

>  I don't know how, but possibilities include massive waves of
> lawsuits from which it must defend even if frivolous, inexplicable IRS
> audits, predator drones armed with hellfire missiles, etc.

The majority of the people is not able to pay a lawyer for this.
Not if the jurisdiction is in some remote part of the US (say, Alaska)
or abroad (say Cambodia)

> Society and
> government is filled with people dependent on lies and secrecy; judges,
> legislators, religious leaders, IRS directors all have the possibility of
> illegitimate children too.  It is easy to imagine them working together,
> using whatever means available, legal or illegal, to stop 23.  I hope that
> 23andMe can withstand all the pressures, but I fear it cannot.

The problems for these types to band together are multiple:

1) they should in some way know they have illegitimate children or relatives
2) they should, in some way, trust their allies to not exploit their
admitted weakness
3) they should think they have a reasonable risk/reward ratio acting
against 23andme

Problem is, with 23andMe, the R/R ration go from negligible to
overwhelming in just few weeks. Not fast enough to mount any legal or
illegal defense.

> Here's how you will know I am right.  Watch for legislation making it
> illegal to do health insurance pricing based on DNA.  If that fails, look
> for societal pressure in the form of bad PR for any company suspected of
> offering health insurance discounts based on DNA sampling.

I think the US obsession with health insurance is amusing.
I suppose it is based on the deep, probably unconscious, understanding
that the system is broken and it is falling apart at the seams.
But, if you understand and accept there is nothing you could do to
change this outcome, you will find the good side is a new better system
could be built in its place.

Mirco

p.s.
The Italian health service (SSN) is broken as much as the US system (and
I work for it). No way to fix it.
To many lies, not enough people willing to tell the bitter truth.
So it will go along until it will not. And when it fall apart no one
will be interested in rebuilt it again.



From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Mon Jul  1 17:48:15 2013
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2013 13:48:15 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Who are the libertarians?
Message-ID: <CAAc1gFhFu95QYO-NY=+BKCqXwF4wV=iFf=JBBk1fw_dYgN5n4w@mail.gmail.com>

http://www.scienceonreligion.org/index.php/news-research/research-updates/555-a-look-at-libertarian-morality

http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0042366

Or, to put it concisely, libertarians are the calm, independent,
curious truth-seekers (non-neurotic, open to experience
systematizers), essentially the opposite of liberals (neurotic,
non-conscientious, extraverted, agreeable, envious non-systematizers =
hypocritical social strivers), and pretty far from conservatives
(agreeable, conscientious, not open to experience = socially
constrained followers).

Rafal


From gsantostasi at gmail.com  Mon Jul  1 18:30:58 2013
From: gsantostasi at gmail.com (Giovanni Santostasi)
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2013 13:30:58 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Who are the libertarians?
In-Reply-To: <CAAc1gFhFu95QYO-NY=+BKCqXwF4wV=iFf=JBBk1fw_dYgN5n4w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAc1gFhFu95QYO-NY=+BKCqXwF4wV=iFf=JBBk1fw_dYgN5n4w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL+RtPeupR6Q-P7D_RZ+tMLYFWw9izoHTTWN=FXazYJkFyH9Mg@mail.gmail.com>

Many transhumanist now are closer to liberal views than libertarian ones.
I will write more about this but I want to point out that your views on
liberals are narrow and biased.
Giovanni


On Mon, Jul 1, 2013 at 12:48 PM, Rafal Smigrodzki <
rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com> wrote:

>
> http://www.scienceonreligion.org/index.php/news-research/research-updates/555-a-look-at-libertarian-morality
>
> http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0042366
>
> Or, to put it concisely, libertarians are the calm, independent,
> curious truth-seekers (non-neurotic, open to experience
> systematizers), essentially the opposite of liberals (neurotic,
> non-conscientious, extraverted, agreeable, envious non-systematizers =
> hypocritical social strivers), and pretty far from conservatives
> (agreeable, conscientious, not open to experience = socially
> constrained followers).
>
> Rafal
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From rolandodegilead at gmail.com  Mon Jul  1 19:15:45 2013
From: rolandodegilead at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Eugenio_Mart=EDnez?=)
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2013 21:15:45 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Who are the libertarians?
In-Reply-To: <CAL+RtPeupR6Q-P7D_RZ+tMLYFWw9izoHTTWN=FXazYJkFyH9Mg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAc1gFhFu95QYO-NY=+BKCqXwF4wV=iFf=JBBk1fw_dYgN5n4w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL+RtPeupR6Q-P7D_RZ+tMLYFWw9izoHTTWN=FXazYJkFyH9Mg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANSO=1=f9y0qOd2ESzExJRRQhKrOhNBMU2++bjPtrYGnMGaEqQ@mail.gmail.com>

What? What a definition...

The hermeneutics of this word is hard, because in Europe, usually, saying
liberal we mean "Neocon" or ultracapitalist while in USA you call liberal
to the leftwinged.

I think that liberal, in the european sense, is not compatible with
transhumanism, nor with any branch of humanism.

Sorry for my english


On Mon, Jul 1, 2013 at 8:30 PM, Giovanni Santostasi
<gsantostasi at gmail.com>wrote:

> Many transhumanist now are closer to liberal views than libertarian ones.
> I will write more about this but I want to point out that your views on
> liberals are narrow and biased.
> Giovanni
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 1, 2013 at 12:48 PM, Rafal Smigrodzki <
> rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> http://www.scienceonreligion.org/index.php/news-research/research-updates/555-a-look-at-libertarian-morality
>>
>> http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0042366
>>
>> Or, to put it concisely, libertarians are the calm, independent,
>> curious truth-seekers (non-neurotic, open to experience
>> systematizers), essentially the opposite of liberals (neurotic,
>> non-conscientious, extraverted, agreeable, envious non-systematizers =
>> hypocritical social strivers), and pretty far from conservatives
>> (agreeable, conscientious, not open to experience = socially
>> constrained followers).
>>
>> Rafal
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>


-- 
OLVIDATE.DE
Tatachan.com
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From gts_2000 at yahoo.com  Mon Jul  1 19:37:59 2013
From: gts_2000 at yahoo.com (Gordon)
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2013 12:37:59 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] head transplants
Message-ID: <1372707479.19557.YahooMailNeo@web121206.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

You might get a new head someday, but you won't know about it.

First-ever human head transplant is now possible, says neuroscientist

http://qz.com/99413/first-ever-human-head-transplant-is-now-possible-says-neuroscientist/

-gts
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From anders at aleph.se  Mon Jul  1 22:06:37 2013
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2013 23:06:37 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Who are the libertarians?
In-Reply-To: <CANSO=1=f9y0qOd2ESzExJRRQhKrOhNBMU2++bjPtrYGnMGaEqQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAc1gFhFu95QYO-NY=+BKCqXwF4wV=iFf=JBBk1fw_dYgN5n4w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL+RtPeupR6Q-P7D_RZ+tMLYFWw9izoHTTWN=FXazYJkFyH9Mg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANSO=1=f9y0qOd2ESzExJRRQhKrOhNBMU2++bjPtrYGnMGaEqQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <51D1FD6D.4060309@aleph.se>

On 2013-07-01 20:15, Eugenio Mart?nez wrote:
> What? What a definition...
>
> The hermeneutics of this word is hard, because in Europe, usually, 
> saying liberal we mean "Neocon" or ultracapitalist while in USA you 
> call liberal to the leftwinged.
>
> I think that liberal, in the european sense, is not compatible with 
> transhumanism, nor with any branch of humanism.

Hmmm... so what does that make us here who think that Locke and Hayek 
were roughly right, that individuals should be in charge of their own 
lives, collectives do not have any moral value in themselves, and that 
governments are dangerous imperfect tools that should be used 
(carefully) only for the purposes to which they are suited?

Sure, there are plenty of disagreements on these ideas, but it seems 
hard to argue that they are counter to transhumanism or humanism.



-- 
Dr Anders Sandberg
Future of Humanity Institute
Oxford Martin School
Oxford University

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From clementlawyer at gmail.com  Mon Jul  1 22:16:04 2013
From: clementlawyer at gmail.com (James Clement)
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2013 18:16:04 -0400
Subject: [ExI] How a total n00b mined $700 in bitcoins
Message-ID: <CA+LBAbSr=PbxZbgoVDa2uhJ9Rr4pcwWmgn7=PfzCaUnCyZYdbQ@mail.gmail.com>

Thought this might interest a few of you who have been discussing Bitcoins.
Apologies for any discontinuity in the article, as I had to remove numerous
embedded photos. url:
http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2013/06/how-a-total-n00b-mined-700-in-bitcoins/

James


 How a total n00b mined $700 in bitcoins
We take a Butterfly Labs Bitcoin miner, plug it in, and make it (virtually)
rain.
This is the second in a two-part series exploring Butterfly Labs and its
lineup of dedicated Bitcoin-mining hardware. In part one, we looked at the
company <http://arstechnica.com/business/2013/06/gold-in-them-bits-inside-the-worlds-most-mysterious-bitcoin-mining-company/>and
the experiences customers have had with it. In part two, we share our
experiences running a Bitcoin miner for a couple weeks.

There is a whirring, whining presence in my dining room. I notice it every
time I walk through. Every day, it sucks down about one full kilowatt-hour
of electricity. In a year, it will consume almost $100 worth of juice?and
that's on top of the $274 it costs to buy the box in the first place. Oh,
and it's hot, too. If I moved it into my office and could stand the noise,
I could keep a cup of coffee comfortably warm on top of the thing. Why on
earth would anyone want such a disagreeable little machine in their home?

The short answer: every day, that machine magically generates something
like $20 in bitcoins.
The BFL miner: A video intro
Allow me to introduce you to the Butterfly Labs 5GH/s "Jalape?o" Bitcoin
miner.
A newbie and his miner

Ars Senior Business Editor Cyrus Farivar tapped me on the shoulder a few
weeks back with a proposition. "I've got a Butterfly Labs Bitcoin mining
box," he explained. "There aren't that many in the wild right now. I'm
working on a story about the company, but I'm about to go on vacation. Do
you want to see if you can get the thing working while I'm out?"

I was intrigued. Bitcoin? That's the electronic currency that's quickly
rocketed from lame nerd project to ludicrously valuable hot topic, right? I
didn't know a lot about the world of Bitcoin other than the fact that
"mining" them involved people building custom PCs with tons of video cards
to handle the math. I certainly didn't know how to "mine" bitcoins myself
or what to *do* with the things once I had them. I just knew that people
eventually try to trade them in for cash somehow (but how to do *that* was
also a total mystery).

And yet here was the opportunity to take a piece of hardware I'd never
heard of and see if I could use it to magically create some money out of
nowhere. I told Cyrus to send me the Butterfly Labs miner. As he trekked
off to Peru for his vacation, I settled in with the little black box.

Butterfly Labs is a company that has drawn a fair amount of controversy for
what the Bitcoin community at large perceives as a string of broken promises
.The company sells ASIC-based Bitcoin miners?machines that are built around
customized chips that do nothing except compute SHA-256
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sha-256>hashes
very quickly.Its smallest miner (the one I had to get working) is codenamed
"Jalape?o" and computes a bit over five billion hashes per second (or 5GH/s)
. The problem is that Butterfly Labs started selling the machines long
before it actually had a product to sell. It began taking paid-in-full
preorders back in mid-2012, and thousands of customers opened their wallets
for Bitcoin miners ranging from the small 5GH/s miner at $274 all the way
up to the large 500Gh/s miner, which costs $22,484.

Butterfly Labs promised certain performance targets to customers?it
initially felt confident that its application-specific integrated circuit
(ASIC) designs would deliver one billion hashes per second for every 1.1
watt of power consumed. This proved extremely optimistic. Hardware delivery
slipped multiple times. Now, a full year later, the first few real live
Butterfly Labs boxes are finally being shipped, though no small number (as
many as 30) were sent to journalists to review rather than to paying
customers.

B ut when the little black box showed up on my doorstep, I had no idea
about the deep and extremely vocal Bitcoin community or the story behind
Butterfly Labs. I didn't really even fully understand what the miner did. I
simply knew that I wanted to get this thing working and make some money.
Out of the box

The 5GH/s Jalape?o miner is a black rounded cube with a brushed metal finish
.The only connectors on the exterior of the device are on the back: a
mini-USB port for data and a power plug. Near the power plug are a series
of small red LEDs that the device uses to tell you its status, though there
was no documentation in the box to explain what the LEDs meant. The front
of the cube contains another red LED to indicate power.

There are two sets of vents, one low on the front and the other high on the
rear.The device's internal 80 mm fan draws cooler air up from the front
through the fins of the large heat sink mounted on the ASIC chip. It expels
the now-warm air out through the top vents.
   Front view of the Butterfly Labs 5GH/s Jalape?o miner. The understated
Butterfly Labs logo is on the top of the device; visible on its front are
the air intake vents.
 <http://cdn.arstechnica.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/bfl2-ext-front.jpg>

After I unboxed the thing and took some photos, I was sort of stuck. I had
no idea what to *do* with the little rounded-off cube.

Before I consulted the Internet for documentation, I tried briefly?and in
vain?to see if I could make it work on my own. "I am a geek, and I work at
Ars Technica, which is a major technology website of some renown," I thought
. "I have built Web servers. I use, like, Linux and stuff. How hard can
this really be?"

Too hard, apparently. Connecting it via USB to any of the computers I had
handy didn't really cause anything to happen. The device showed up on the
USB bus and identified itself, but it didn't *do* anything. I naively
wondered if there was some kind of application I needed to download to "log
on" to the device to get it mining.
 <http://arstechnica.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/bfl2-systeminfo.png>
When connected via USB, the miner shows up as a "BitFORCE SHA256 SC," which
is the ASIC identifier.
 Lee Hutchinson

I admitted defeat and consulted the Internet. Unfortunately, as I was to
quickly learn, I was coming at the miner with a certain set of false
assumptions. The BFL miner is a pretty simple device; it doesn't have an
"interface" or a console or anything like that at all. It talks via
serial-over-USB, and you do need an application running on your computer to
actually do anything with it.

In fact, you need several things: a mining application, a "wallet," and a
"pool," though the pool is optional.
 The prerequisites

The first thing I needed to do was to set up a wallet, or a place to keep
my bitcoins. A wallet lets you engage in Bitcoin transactions?it lets you
create Bitcoin *addresses* you can share and that people can send money to. In
addition to being able to send and receive bitcoins to and from other
Bitcoin users, you need a wallet so that you've got somewhere to keep the
bitcoins you generate through mining. I wound up creating my wallet at
Blockchain.info  <http://blockchain.info/>, though there are many
alternatives.

Once you've got a wallet, you really ought to join a mining pool because
Bitcoin mining is best done with shared labor. Nothing at all forbids you
from striking out on your own, but the nature of the entire virtual
currency system is such that by sharing the work required for "discovering"
the currency, you share in the reward as well.

Understanding how bitcoins are brought into being requires understanding
the network behind the currency. Briefly, the entire record of every
Bitcoin transaction ever made stretching back to the currency's beginning
is public. This is called the *block chain*. Bitcoin mining involves
confirming those transactions by collecting several of them together into a
group called a *block* and running specific cryptographic functions on it.
 The *chain* concept comes into play because every time a bitcoin is
"spent," the spender appends a hash to the bitcoin derived from his or her
own cryptographic private key, the previous transaction's hash, and the
recipient's cryptographic public key. As each bit of data added to
Bitcoin's history of transactions is cryptographically derived from
previous data, altering earlier data would invalidate the entire chain.

When a collected block of transactions is confirmed by a Bitcoin miner?that
is, when the SHA-256 hashing that the miners are doing on a transaction
results in a very specific value that starts with a number of zeros?the
block is said to have been "mined." The winning miner is allowed to reward
itself with some number of bitcoins. That number is currently 25, and it
decreases by 50 percent in intervals over time.

If you're mining in a pool, you split the reward with the other members of
your pool based on the pool's specific rules. If you're mining by yourself,
you keep the entire payout. The issue with mining by oneself is that it's
very likely to take you much, much longer to confirm a block than it would
with an entire pool's resources. Joining a pool is the way to faster
payouts of bitcoins.
Mining!

Because I can never do anything the easy way, I wasn't content with getting
the BFL box working under Windows, which is a well-documented and fairly
straightforward process. No, I wanted to make it work under OS X. That
required a bit of help.

I spent quite a bit of time talking with John O'Mara, creator of the
MacMiner <http://fabulouspanda.co.uk/macminer/>application for mining
bitcoins on a Mac. MacMiner is a FOSS GUI wrapper
<https://github.com/fabulouspanda/MacMiner>that
uses another FOSS application, bfgminer <https://github.com/luke-jr/bfgminer>,
to tell the mining hardware (be it video cards or separate ASIC-based
boxes) what to do. In the end, the solution involved a lot of work on
John's part and not really that much on mine, except for me running
commands and reporting back their results.

Because Butterfly Labs miners are still relatively scarce in the wild, John
didn't have one to test with. Still, using me as a (dumb) remote
manipulator, we eventually got the BFL box correctly hooked up and mining. The
release version of MacMiner supports the Butterfly Labs ASIC miners now,
but since I had gotten it working first on the command line, that's what I
stuck with.

In fact, once it worked, it was a little anticlimactic. I typed in the
command and the bash prompt to kick the miner off. Rather than spitting out
an error like it had been doing, the screen lit up in a deliciously cryptic
display.
 We are now mining. There are numbers happening.
 Lee Hutchinson

Numbers.  Lots of numbers everywhere. I stared at it for long seconds,
watching the updates crawl upward from the bottom of the screen. *Am I
actually mining?* I wondered. *Is money happening?* I envisioned my little
MacBook Air lighting up like a slot machine if I found an actual block. Would
sirens go off? Would money shoot out?

I quickly shared a screenshot with the rest of the Ars team in IRC. "IS
THIS GOOD?!" I asked. No one really knew.

I kept staring at the numbers, not yet willing to glance at bfgminer's
documentation  <https://github.com/luke-jr/bfgminer/blob/bfgminer/README>to
see what they meant. All I knew is that there were lots of counters and
things on my screen, and I wanted them to be *higher*. I had a sudden
flashback to my first job out of college in 2000, when I dragged 20 unused
Pentium II PCs into a corner and rigged them all up with the
SETI at Homeclient and briefly became an ET-searching superstar
.
Performance, noise, heat

The BFL miner does precisely one thing: compute SHA-256 hashes as fast as
it can. So from a benchmarking perspective, the main question to answer is
whether or not it hits its rated target of five billion hashes per second.

When hashing, the BFL miner actually hovers at between 5.4-5.6GH/sec,
delivering a bit more than its rated amount of hashes per second.  The
device pulled about 30 watts of power when idle and 50 watts of power when
actively hashing. It reported internal temperatures as high as 80C.

Some back-of-the-napkin math based on my Kill-a-Watt meter's readings show
that the device would consume a bit under $100 per year in
electricity. However,
at current Bitcoin mining difficulty levels, it produces about 0.1 BTC
about every 12 hours. It's impossible to speculate on BTC-to-dollar rates
in the future since they're so volatile. But at the exchange rates that
were current as I was piecing this article together, the miner had repaid
its purchase price *within ten days*. If the value and difficulty of BTC
holds, an ASIC-based miner like this could generate thousands of dollars of
revenue per year.
Cashing out

After a couple of days tinkering with the box to actually get it mining, it
was kind of a letdown. The box made noise and consumed a bit of
electricity; every 12 hours or so I would get a notice in e-mail from
Blockchain.info, letting me know that another ~0.1BTC had been deposited
into my account thanks to the combined efforts of me and the rest of the
pool I'd joined  <https://mining.bitcoin.cz/>. It definitely worked. It was
not a scam. It was a legitimate 5GH/s miner.

The Ars editorial team had resolved even before I plugged in the device
that we'd be donating any monies it generated to the EFF. So after I'd
gotten a representative sample of bitcoins, I was ready to stop and
donate. However,
there was still one major aspect of Bitcoin mining that wasn't terribly
clear to me. How, exactly, does one *cash out?*

Before I donated the fruits of the miner's labor, I resolved to actually
take the bitcoin generation through to the end I'd been wondering about. At
this point, which was the last week in May, the little BFL box had
generated precisely 2.90220929 BTC. I would take those bitcoins and turn
them into cold, hard cash.

I quickly learned that transforming BTC into USD wasn't a single-step
process.There's no "cash out" button; rather, you must either arrange a
transaction yourself with a private party or sell your BTC through an *
exchange*. I started withthe list of exchanges
<https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Selling_bitcoins>on
the Bitcoin wiki to get a feel for my options.

The most famous exchange is MtGox  <https://mtgox.com/>, but looking at its
options for withdrawing funds quickly turned me away. Most exchanges allow
you to sell your BTC for US dollars, but few provide a way to retrieve your
dollars that I felt comfortable using. Many allow you to transfer dollars
to a PayPal account, but I don't use PayPal. Others let you pull money
directly into a personal checking account via ACH or wire transfer, but I
wasn't willing to share my bank account details or open a new throwaway
checking account. Some exchanges, including MtGox, allow you to withdraw
dollars using Dwolla  <https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Dwolla>(no thanks) or Liberty
Reserve <http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/05/feds-smash-liberty-reserve-alleging-billions-in-money-laundering-charges/>(too
late).

Finally, a little way down the list, I noticed one exchange with the option
to withdraw funds in the form of USPS money orders: Camp BX
<https://campbx.com/>
.

I popped over to its site and established an account, then I generated an
address to receive the bitcoins. Back over at my Blockchain.info wallet, I
clicked the "Send Money" option, entered the address I'd generated for my
Camp BX account, selected my entire store of 2.90220929 bitcoins, and hit
"Send Payment."

The transaction went through. I'd just created some work for the legions of
other Bitcoin miners to verify. Several minutes later, the balance showed
up in my Camp BX account. Somewhere else, a new block of 25 bitcoins was
awarded and spread around as incentive for helping validate my transaction. The
cycle continued.

I was far more concerned at this point with actually getting some money out
of the infernal machine. Without being too terribly sure what I was doing,
I clicked "TRADE NOW" and then initiated a "Quick Sell" order. The ticker
at the top of the screen informed me that the current bid price for
bitcoins was $129.52 per, and it recommended that I sell my BTC at that rate
. So I gamely typed in my maximum amount of BTC, entered the suggested rate
of $129.52, and previewed the order.
 Enlarge <http://arstechnica.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/bfl2-selling-02.png>/
Is money happening? I think money is about to be happening.

"You are about to execute a Quick Sell order," the site informed me,
showing me the details I'd entered on the previous screen. Feeling every
bit the Internet tycoon, I clicked "EXECUTE SELL."

The next screen informed me that my sell order had gone through
immediately.Camp
BX kept a bit over $2 in commission, and I suddenly had $374 in my Camp BX
account.
 Enlarge <http://arstechnica.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/bfl2-selling-03.png>/
Money has kind of happened! I think I just got paid... somehow!

Next, I clicked "TRANSFER" and initiated the withdrawal process. There's a
$20 fee for pulling out funds in the form of a USPS money order, as well as
a maximum daily withdrawal of $1,000. I didn't mind giving up $20 of what
was essentially free money anyway if it meant I didn't have to give out my
checking account information. I punched in my information and requested the
withdrawal.
 Enlarge <http://arstechnica.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/bfl2-selling-05.png>/
Wait. OK, money hasn't happened yet. I mean, it has?sort of. Now I just
need to get the money to me.

A few days later, I received a hand-addressed envelope via certified
mail. Inside,
sure enough, was a hand-written USPS money order for $354.00 from "BulBul
Investments LLC." I drove it down to my credit union, and they cashed it
without complaint.
 Enlarge <http://arstechnica.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/bfl2-moneyorder2.jpg>/
You guys. We are so close to having turned bitcoins into actual real money.
 Lee Hutchinson
After a quick trip to the bank, you can call me THE RAINMAKER.
 Lee Hutchinson

I had done it. I had legitimately mined bitcoins and transmuted raw
electricity into dollars, through the power of *mathematics*. Truly, my
skill knew no bounds!

But the story doesn't *quite* end there.
 Catastrophe!

You might wonder, dear reader, why I stopped at 2.90220929 bitcoins. It's
rather an odd number. Why not three? Why not four or five?

After I filmed the video at the beginning of this piece, I resituated the
little BFL miner back into its corner of the dining room to resume its work
while I edited.As I walked away, I heard the whirring of the BFL miner take
on a decidedly*angry* tone. I approached it and knelt, thinking that the
fan bearing might have started to go bad, because that's certainly what it
sounded like. I tapped with one finger on the top of the device.

*"RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR?WHOCK,"* it said, before going totally silent.

I pulled the power cord and disassembled the machine to take a peek. One of
the fan blades had snapped off, catching itself in the aluminum fins of the
heat sink.
 Enlarge <http://arstechnica.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/bfl2-fanblade.jpg>/
Ruh-roh, Shaggy.
 Lee Hutchinson

Clearly, the BFL 5GH/s miner's mining days were done?and at an odd number
of BTC mined, too.
A new challenger appears

I contacted Butterfly Labs and let them know that the fan had broken, and
they immediately offered to send a replacement miner. At first I demurred,
but on reflection I decided to take them up on their offer. The power
numbers mentioned in my initial quick post
<http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2013/05/weve-got-a-butterfly-labs-bitcoin-miner-and-its-pretty-darn-fast/>didn't
jibe with the numbers of some other BFL miners in the wild. I was curious
to see if a replacement unit's stats would vary that much. Plus, with one
BFL miner down after only two weeks of mining, I wanted a second sample. Was
there a quality issue? Or did I just happen to get one with a bad fan?

Butterfly Labs quickly shipped the replacement, and the very next morning a
friendly FedEx driver dropped it off at my front door. Superficially, it
looked identical, but on plugging it in I was quite surprised at the
difference.

I noticed immediately that the noise was lower; I didn't measure the
decibel level of either box scientifically, but to my ear the new one was
markedly quieter than the old. Power consumption was also far lower. While
crunching numbers, the new box drew just 30 watts?roughly the same amount
of power that the first miner drew while idling.

The reduced amount of power consumed was reflected in the temperatures
too.After
being left to run all night, the thermal sensor reported about 37C?about*
half* of the first box's temperatures under load.

Half the noise, half the heat, and almost half the power draw? What was
going on in that little box?

I reached out to Jeff Ownby of Butterfly Labs and asked about the
variances."The
[ASIC] chips each have a potential of 4.2GH/s," he explained. "So the
theoretical max of a Jalape?o with two chips is 8.4GH/s. However, we use
the lower graded chips in the Jalape?o and the higher grade chips in our
other products, so the maximum performance in a Jalape?o is something less,
which is what you're seeing."

Butterfly Labs has its share of troubles with its ASIC suppliers?in fact,
most of the long delay between preorder taking and delivery appear to be
related directly or indirectly to the actual design and manufacturing of
the ASIC itself.These problems appear to have been somewhat solved and the
company is actually shipping miners  <http://bfl.ptz.ro/>. It seems that
all efforts are going to filling the 5GH/s Jalape?o orders first. The
second unit I got was apparently a higher-graded chip that might have been
fit for duty in a higher-spec miner (though in an e-mail sent after I'd
turned in my first draft of this piece, Jeff Ownby let me know that
Butterfly Labs is now shipping models other than the low-end Jalape?o).

Obvious question: if there's headroom, can I overclock the miner? I dashed
off another e-mail to the Butterfly Labs folks. "We'd prefer to leave the
question of overclocking officially unanswered, but we don't mind you
throwing that possibility out there for curious minds."

A*ha*. Unfortunately, I wouldn't even know where to begin. The miner
accepts commands via serial-over-USB, and I don't know if it's possible to
pass it any commands over that interface to alter its clock speed. I don't
have a command reference for Butterfly Labs' ASIC, so reverse-engineering
is a difficult prospect.It's entirely possible, if Butterfly Labs is doing
voltage regulation and clock speed multiplication in the software, that
there might be some magic commands you could issue to up the juice to a
cool-running miner.

Speaking of reverse-engineering, there's also this:

If you've got the tools and the talent, there's a JTAG here that you can go
crazy with.
 Lee Hutchinson

There's a JTAG  <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JTAG>connector clearly
visible. I don't have the equipment to actually utilize the connector, but
in a group as technically minded as the Bitcoin mining community, I'm sure
there will be someone out there who will be poking at the miner through
this interface to see what they can learn (if it hasn't already been done).

Additionally, Butterfly Labs has published the source code for their board
firmware programming tools in a Github repo
<https://github.com/luke-jr/BitForce_SC>
. "This code has the mining logic and directs the nonces to the appropriate
engine and collects the results and sends them back out to the world,"
explained Ownby when I asked him what was contained in the files. Developers
with an interest in seeing what the Butterfly Labs miner can do and in
possibly extending its capabilities can use this code as a starting place.
The final tallies

In the end, the two miners together consumed a total of 28.30 kWh of
electricity. According to my latest utility bill, I'm paying $0.13 per kWh,
so my Bitcoin mining experiment cost me $3.68 in real electricity (without
accounting for taxes and fees and whatever else the power company pads my
bill with). The tally is obviously complicated by the two different miners
consuming different amounts of juice. Even at the higher electricity rate
of the first miner, it's clear that?at current exchange rates and
difficulty?Bitcoin mining with one of these boxes is a profitable endeavor.

In fact, if it's so profitable, why on earth is Butterfly Labs *selling* these
devices?Why not rent a warehouse, fill it with miners, and make infinity
bitcoins?

The answer is two-fold. First, BFL required a great deal of capital in
order to design and manufacture the ASICs that power its boxes and then to
assemble the miners themselves. This capital was provided in no small part
by pre-selling the miners; hanging onto them to do some BTC mining with
them is sketchy at best and at worst illegal. Plus, there are practical
considerations: a giant BTC warehouse adds overhead costs, and I can't even
begin to take a guess at the bookkeeping implications of warehousing
capital like that.

However, the second reason is far more practical: bitcoins, for all their
current value, are still speculative. A large amount of US dollars is a
large amount of US dollars no matter which way you cut it. It can be
readily exchanged for goods and services. Bitcoins themselves don't
necessarily hold value, and it's difficult to exchange them in large
quantities for an equivalent amount of dollars. So selling Bitcoin miners
for dollars guarantees a certain number of dollars; investing capital into
mining a truly large number of bitcoins might work well as a short-term
hedge, but the value of the trade is utterly impossible to predict.

This, I suppose, is part of the nature of high-risk investments. But in
this case, Butterfly Labs can simply charge whatever it wants for its gear
in order to make whatever margin it deems is sufficient. Why bet on the
future of a relatively new virtual currency that may go up or down when you
can simply get a bunch of real US dollars?

Obviously, the value of those US dollars may?will!?also go up and down, but
it's also extremely easy to extract value from a dollar. I can't?at least
yet?pay my mortgage in BTC, or buy a car in BTC, or really even buy
everyday necessities (I don't live anywhere near any random merchants who
have decided to begin accepting BTC). A dollar, at least today, has far
greater utility and far greater immediate value.
Bitcoin?s not for me?but it might be for you

I ran the replacement miner for an equal amount of time as the first one
ran before breaking; it held up without complaints and churned out an
additional three bitcoins. Both our cash from the first miner and our
bitcoins from the second have been turned over to the EFF, and our second
Butterfly Labs miner has been returned to its manufacturer. I am once again
a normal person who traffics in normal-person money. I'd actually gotten
used to walking past the dining room in the morning and hearing the *
whirrrrrr* of the miner in the corner, and now the house seems weirdly quiet
.

The biggest takeaway from my time working with the Butterfly Labs
"Jalape?o" miner is that you don't really have to know a damn thing about
how bitcoins work to mine them. As complex as the underlying cryptography
is to a layman like me, the only reason why I couldn't pull this thing out
of the box and start mining after reading a couple of wiki articles was
that I wanted to get it working on OS X. John O'Mara's help was priceless,
and once we had the application side figured out, it was smooth sailing.

So should you don your prospecting gear, buy a Butterfly Labs miner this
very instant, and start making money? You *could*, but there are a couple
of issues.The first is that Butterfly Labs has only recently started
shipping products, and its first priority is to its year-long backlog of
preorder customers. If you're buying a unit today, you're going to be way, *
way* down the list. There are tons of other high-speed ASIC-based miners,
though?sites like The Genesis Block
<http://www.thegenesisblock.com/category/mining-2/>keep
tabs on what's available and what's worth buying.

The other issue is a bit stickier: the Bitcoin system adjusts its overall
difficulty as mining speed increases in an attempt to limit the speed of
Bitcoin production. A few years ago, a 5GH/s miner like the Jalape?o would
have produced a veritable torrent of bitcoins in a day; a few years *from* now,
specialized hardware will be required to mine even tiny fractions of BTC.

If you're going to buy an ASIC-based miner, it might be best to get one, as
they say, while the gettin' is still good.
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From natasha at natasha.cc  Mon Jul  1 22:29:25 2013
From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More)
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2013 15:29:25 -0700
Subject: [ExI] David Wood & Transhumanists Discuss Dan Brown's Book Inferno
Message-ID: <001b01ce76aa$717453d0$545cfb70$@natasha.cc>

This is a really good discussions on Dan Brown's Inferno book with David
Wood to asks David Orban, Giulio Prisco and Peter Rothman what they think.
I listened to it this morning, and  enjoyed it.  Only problem is it could
have been longer.  Great job David Wood!

 

 <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=801_8qzfx0M.>
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=801_8qzfx0M.

 

 

Natasha

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From rolandodegilead at gmail.com  Tue Jul  2 01:43:47 2013
From: rolandodegilead at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Eugenio_Mart=EDnez?=)
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2013 03:43:47 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Who are the libertarians?
In-Reply-To: <51D1FD6D.4060309@aleph.se>
References: <CAAc1gFhFu95QYO-NY=+BKCqXwF4wV=iFf=JBBk1fw_dYgN5n4w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL+RtPeupR6Q-P7D_RZ+tMLYFWw9izoHTTWN=FXazYJkFyH9Mg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANSO=1=f9y0qOd2ESzExJRRQhKrOhNBMU2++bjPtrYGnMGaEqQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <51D1FD6D.4060309@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <CANSO=1mLsffMGoCD0-5ixu0LAbJbVd2CVrOjeZeaea3eRs1kww@mail.gmail.com>

>
> Hmmm... so what does that make us here who think that Locke and Hayek were
> roughly right, that individuals should be in charge of their own lives,
> collectives do not have any moral value in themselves, and that governments
> are dangerous imperfect tools that should be used (carefully) only for the
> purposes to which they are suited?
>

I think that a clarification is needed.

I am thinking on the liberalism from Europe (The neocon or
ultracapitalist), which is absolutely incompatible and that is not the same
that the neocons in USA. A paradigmatic example:

A journalist who writes for Libertad Digital, one of the many newspapers
owned by Popular Party supporters says "Child prostitutes don?t like their
jobs, but nobody likes it".

They supports things like hired murderers  and fight for leave no rights to
the people without money if they are not able to pay: No health services at
all, not education at all. They don?t want to pay any tax, so roads,
police, tax, army etc are payed by each one.
No cooperation, no laws no society.

Is this liberalism? Is what selfstyled liberal in Europe/Spain call
liberalism.
Is this humanism? Not at all. Just radical anarchism where you have right
to live if you can defend yourself.

Sorry for my english
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From gsantostasi at gmail.com  Tue Jul  2 02:34:28 2013
From: gsantostasi at gmail.com (Giovanni Santostasi)
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2013 21:34:28 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Who are the libertarians?
In-Reply-To: <CANSO=1mLsffMGoCD0-5ixu0LAbJbVd2CVrOjeZeaea3eRs1kww@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAc1gFhFu95QYO-NY=+BKCqXwF4wV=iFf=JBBk1fw_dYgN5n4w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL+RtPeupR6Q-P7D_RZ+tMLYFWw9izoHTTWN=FXazYJkFyH9Mg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANSO=1=f9y0qOd2ESzExJRRQhKrOhNBMU2++bjPtrYGnMGaEqQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <51D1FD6D.4060309@aleph.se>
 <CANSO=1mLsffMGoCD0-5ixu0LAbJbVd2CVrOjeZeaea3eRs1kww@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL+RtPe80_7p-Cc+pJN13y4yhmBKn2nbS57AhzsKOYivD+-B0g@mail.gmail.com>

I think democratic transhumanism is much more likely to succeed by having a
more general appeal.
Transhumanism is already accused to be the brainchild of rich and powerful
elites and having at its core heartless policies and ideas like eugenic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_transhumanism

Giovanni



On Mon, Jul 1, 2013 at 8:43 PM, Eugenio Mart?nez
<rolandodegilead at gmail.com>wrote:

> Hmmm... so what does that make us here who think that Locke and Hayek were
>> roughly right, that individuals should be in charge of their own lives,
>> collectives do not have any moral value in themselves, and that governments
>> are dangerous imperfect tools that should be used (carefully) only for the
>> purposes to which they are suited?
>>
>
> I think that a clarification is needed.
>
> I am thinking on the liberalism from Europe (The neocon or
> ultracapitalist), which is absolutely incompatible and that is not the same
> that the neocons in USA. A paradigmatic example:
>
> A journalist who writes for Libertad Digital, one of the many newspapers
> owned by Popular Party supporters says "Child prostitutes don?t like their
> jobs, but nobody likes it".
>
> They supports things like hired murderers  and fight for leave no rights
> to the people without money if they are not able to pay: No health services
> at all, not education at all. They don?t want to pay any tax, so roads,
> police, tax, army etc are payed by each one.
> No cooperation, no laws no society.
>
> Is this liberalism? Is what selfstyled liberal in Europe/Spain call
> liberalism.
> Is this humanism? Not at all. Just radical anarchism where you have right
> to live if you can defend yourself.
>
> Sorry for my english
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From anders at aleph.se  Tue Jul  2 07:56:53 2013
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2013 08:56:53 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Who are the libertarians?
In-Reply-To: <CANSO=1mLsffMGoCD0-5ixu0LAbJbVd2CVrOjeZeaea3eRs1kww@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAc1gFhFu95QYO-NY=+BKCqXwF4wV=iFf=JBBk1fw_dYgN5n4w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL+RtPeupR6Q-P7D_RZ+tMLYFWw9izoHTTWN=FXazYJkFyH9Mg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANSO=1=f9y0qOd2ESzExJRRQhKrOhNBMU2++bjPtrYGnMGaEqQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <51D1FD6D.4060309@aleph.se>
 <CANSO=1mLsffMGoCD0-5ixu0LAbJbVd2CVrOjeZeaea3eRs1kww@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <51D287C5.3080201@aleph.se>

On 2013-07-02 02:43, Eugenio Mart?nez wrote:
>
>     Hmmm... so what does that make us here who think that Locke and
>     Hayek were roughly right, that individuals should be in charge of
>     their own lives, collectives do not have any moral value in
>     themselves, and that governments are dangerous imperfect tools
>     that should be used (carefully) only for the purposes to which
>     they are suited?
>
>
> I think that a clarification is needed.
>
> I am thinking on the liberalism from Europe (The neocon or 
> ultracapitalist), which is absolutely incompatible and that is not the 
> same that the neocons in USA.

What is their ideological tenets? Because I suspect you are not 
describing a real view, but rather your strawman view of something you 
do not like. So you pick up examples of people saying outrageous things 
and bundle them together into "this is what they think".


-- 
Dr Anders Sandberg
Future of Humanity Institute
Oxford Martin School
Oxford University

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From giulio at gmail.com  Tue Jul  2 08:09:12 2013
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2013 10:09:12 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Who are the libertarians?
In-Reply-To: <CAAc1gFhFu95QYO-NY=+BKCqXwF4wV=iFf=JBBk1fw_dYgN5n4w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAc1gFhFu95QYO-NY=+BKCqXwF4wV=iFf=JBBk1fw_dYgN5n4w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKTCJyfWncNP+f7U=0+hNzoJ_GwmGx8i2rRzrkkcYpyTWDGV4g@mail.gmail.com>

As I become older and wiser, I more and more agree with libertarian positions


From rolandodegilead at gmail.com  Tue Jul  2 10:39:03 2013
From: rolandodegilead at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Eugenio_Mart=EDnez?=)
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2013 12:39:03 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Who are the libertarians?
In-Reply-To: <CAKTCJyfWncNP+f7U=0+hNzoJ_GwmGx8i2rRzrkkcYpyTWDGV4g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAc1gFhFu95QYO-NY=+BKCqXwF4wV=iFf=JBBk1fw_dYgN5n4w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTCJyfWncNP+f7U=0+hNzoJ_GwmGx8i2rRzrkkcYpyTWDGV4g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANSO=1mTLz=c0BO-yRsm2B9ar1XZ37F0EO-jYgwUbJ3eVazmVw@mail.gmail.com>

> What is their ideological tenets? Because I suspect you are not describing
> a real view, but rather your strawman view of something you do not like. So
> you pick up examples of people saying outrageous things and bundle them
> together into "this is what they think".
>

Well, I didn?t chose a Mr Nobody to show an example. If you can read
Spanish you can read here the
article<http://www.jorgevalin.com/artic/heroes_libertad.htm>where I
found this quote. He writes in Libertad Digital. The owner of this
newspaper is Federico Jimenez Losantos, one of the most important
businessman in Spain. If you know somebody from Spain, ask him about
Federico Jimenez Losantos. If your friend is older than 18, he knows him.
Their only ideology is this radical anarchism where freedom is superior to
all the other human rights.

Still, we here have a public health system that cost 1500? per person every
year and that provides with FULL health asistance. Full means Full.
Everything is free. Or was.

It was perfectly sustainable and was universal, for everybody even if you
were not Spanish, because a human life is most important than the cost of
their treatment. But the Spanish liberals have dismantled it. So now, only
the rich people can pay their treatments. Is this humanism? In fact, even
from an economic point of view is not intelligent: Healthy people works
better and epidemics spreaded are more expensive than epidemics controlled.

Also, suing somebody is not free anymore. Only people who can pay can sue
someone. Poor people are helpless.

Is this liberal system where only rich people can have their health treated
or can be protected by the judiciary compatible with humanism? Don?t even
respect human life.
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From eugen at leitl.org  Tue Jul  2 14:13:44 2013
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2013 16:13:44 +0200
Subject: [ExI] [Server-sky] Drag and LEO thinsat experiments
Message-ID: <20130702141344.GY24217@leitl.org>

----- Forwarded message from Keith Lofstrom <keithl at kl-ic.com> -----

Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2013 18:57:01 -0700
From: Keith Lofstrom <keithl at kl-ic.com>
To: server-sky at server-sky.com
Subject: [Server-sky] Drag and LEO thinsat experiments
User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.2i
Reply-To: keithl at keithl.com

Some thoughts about microgravity thinsat tests.

Take a look at http://server-sky.com/Drag .  The air drag at ISS
altitudes (350-400km) and below is way too high to maneuver 
thinsats - they are tissue paper in a hurricane.  Once thinsats
drop below 1000km altitude, they will re-enter in weeks;  below
400km, re-enter in hours, unless they are shielded from air drag.

Thinsats in light pressure accelerate away from the sun at
around 20 ?m/s?.  At ISS altitudes, the orbital drag is 200
times higher, -4000 ?m/s?, rapidly slowing down and losing
altitude.  That is 15 m/s per hour, dropping orbit altitude
by 30 kilometers, which doubles the drag in an hour, which
doubles the drag in half an hour, ...

A 1U cubesat has an area of 0.01m?and weighs 1kg, 200 times the
mass and 0.4 times the area of a thinsat, so the drag acceleration
is 500 times lower, about -8?m/s?.  

ISS accelerates at -0.2?m/s? because of drag.  Small, but it adds
to drop the orbit by 10s of kilometers over months - putting ISS
in denser atmosphere, decreasing the decay rate and requiring
frequent rocket reboost.  ISS flexes, turns, outgasses - certainly
not perfect vacuum and zero gravity.

Imagine testing a thinsat inside of a transparent container to
protect it from air drag.  If the container is in the portion of 
its orbit moving towards the sun, and slowing at 20?m/s?, it will 
track the light pressure acceleration of the thinsat and the 
thinsat can maneuver inside the container.  That is way more
acceleration than ISS, a bit more than a slowing cubesat. 

But if the cubesat deploys a larger transparent plastic bag,
that could add enough drag to match the thinsat's 20?m/s?
light pressure acceleration for a small portion of a 92
minute ISS-altitude orbit.  A full size 20cm thinsat won't
fit in a small bag, but for testing a 5cm thinsat will do
fine.  A small thinsat turns four times faster, facilitating
short duration experiments.

A proposed experiment:  

Make a cubesat with small TV cameras, an S-band transmitter,
a bluetooth transmitter, and a small deployable tent with a
5cm baby thinsat inside.   The baby thinsat has InP solar
cells and electrochromic thrusters controlled by a single
chip bluetooth receiver/CPU.  The cubesat commands the captive
baby thinsat to manuever, the behavior is captured by the
cameras and flash memory, to be slowly transmitted to the
software radios on ISS. 

As the cubesat drags and slows down, the orbit will drop
and move forwards in orbit, eventually falling out of range
of ISS and re-enter.  If the drag tent stays deployed,
the cubesat will come down in less than two weeks.  That
will result in a few dozen experimental passes.  

Also, developing a low-mass deployable drag tent from a
cubesat might be a useful technology for other cubesats.
If their orbit takes them near some other LEO asset, it
slowing down and missing a collision could save $$$$$ in
liability.  

A lot of handwaving, but a concept for an experiment that might
refine into something practical.  CHECK MY NUMBERS please!

Keith

-- 
Keith Lofstrom          keithl at keithl.com         Voice (503)-520-1993
_______________________________________________
Server-sky mailing list
Server-sky at lists.server-sky.com
http://lists.server-sky.com/mailman/listinfo/server-sky

----- End forwarded message -----
-- 
Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://ativel.com http://postbiota.org
AC894EC5: 38A5 5F46 A4FF 59B8 336B  47EE F46E 3489 AC89 4EC5


From spike at rainier66.com  Wed Jul  3 04:01:39 2013
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike)
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2013 21:01:39 -0700
Subject: [ExI] 23andme again
In-Reply-To: <00d801ce7673$4a346f30$de9d4d90$@rainier66.com>
References: <51CB00B9.1010404@libero.it>
 <000c01ce7296$58bee750$0a3cb5f0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAOJFdb+b4mE62CpXstRJr9JWXWjvqWa0Q9xoyGyxxKvhJeHjdQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <000301ce72d2$323277f0$969767d0$@rainier66.com>
 <001f01ce7324$f7c9d6a0$e75d83e0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAOJFdb+Bri3r0wtJ+BY=pZyyUJbOZmxy3PC2W=0q7O+=HwKNcQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <002a01ce7348$0a4c5fa0$1ee51ee0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armggHDoJXnDxVm7WK=FuXSv+fkM0t1gN_CsFgHmOSjPuuA@mail.gmail.com>
 <006d01ce735d$ce8fdad0$6baf9070$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPGs0J_g52uK+hWPkJqrtqYcx_g3gM2+aGG4TSJ69vVSOWBk4w@mail.gmail.com>
 <20130627184859.GK24217@leitl.org>
 <00ac01ce736f$d0fa6d00$72ef4700$@rainier66.com>
 <CAOJFdbLL2DU=vrUERMOG7MhWf=33cecsin3=yDX8FOh+3Wh0dg@mail.gmail.com>
 <003401ce7415$a52b32d0$ef819870$@rainier66.com>
 <008401ce760d$dffbda00$9ff38e00$@rainier66.com> <51D17A6D.9060503@libero.it>
 <CAL_armitd=0WYzvyi=tgN3vmxMpjjmiEQrWHYdJBCcEM_TQG8w@mail.gmail.com>
 <00d801ce7673$4a346f30$de9d4d90$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <018601ce77a2$05fe9220$11fbb660$@rainier66.com>

>... On Behalf Of BillK
Subject: Re: [ExI] 23andme again

On Mon, Jul 1, 2013 at 1:47 PM, Mirco Romanato wrote:

>>... The truth will make you free(er).  As you didn't anything evil or
wrong, what's the problem with the true?  Mirco

>...The difficulty is that human society is dependent on lies for
survival...BillK

 _______________________________________________

Hey another idea occurred to me after thinking about BillK's comment.  Human
society, and definitely criminals are heavily dependent on deception and
stealth.  Imagine that you are a victim of any crime in which the perp
leaves any DNA trace which can be recovered.  You are a lot more motivated
to catch the bastard than the cops are.  That isn't to say they are lazy or
unmotivated; they are busy and don't worry as much as you do about catching
that particular suspect.

But imagine the perp does leave some trace of DNA, but that's all.  There
are no witnesses, no security camera evidence, and even the fingerprints
bring up no matches, so all you have is a DNA sample full stop.  Looks to me
like you now have the power to send that sample to 23andMe, then you now
have at least a list of the perp's distant cousins.  With a bit of detective
work that you are willing to put in, but not the police department, you
might be able to figure out whodunit, just by looking at the intersection of
all the cousins.  If not, all you need to do is wait, because more and more
people sign up for this all the time.

That makes for a hell of a note: some sleazy bastard does some crime, gets
away, some arbitrary period of time later, you figure out who it is, and
even where he lives.  The cops will not do anything about what you have
discovered, they don't act on that kind of information.  But you know who it
is.  

With all our sophistication and everything we know how to do, what happens
next?

spike



From spike at rainier66.com  Wed Jul  3 05:03:54 2013
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike)
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2013 22:03:54 -0700
Subject: [ExI] 23andme again
In-Reply-To: <018601ce77a2$05fe9220$11fbb660$@rainier66.com>
References: <51CB00B9.1010404@libero.it>
 <000c01ce7296$58bee750$0a3cb5f0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAOJFdb+b4mE62CpXstRJr9JWXWjvqWa0Q9xoyGyxxKvhJeHjdQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <000301ce72d2$323277f0$969767d0$@rainier66.com>
 <001f01ce7324$f7c9d6a0$e75d83e0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAOJFdb+Bri3r0wtJ+BY=pZyyUJbOZmxy3PC2W=0q7O+=HwKNcQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <002a01ce7348$0a4c5fa0$1ee51ee0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armggHDoJXnDxVm7WK=FuXSv+fkM0t1gN_CsFgHmOSjPuuA@mail.gmail.com>
 <006d01ce735d$ce8fdad0$6baf9070$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPGs0J_g52uK+hWPkJqrtqYcx_g3gM2+aGG4TSJ69vVSOWBk4w@mail.gmail.com>
 <20130627184859.GK24217@leitl.org>
 <00ac01ce736f$d0fa6d00$72ef4700$@rainier66.com>
 <CAOJFdbLL2DU=vrUERMOG7MhWf=33cecsin3=yDX8FOh+3Wh0dg@mail.gmail.com>
 <003401ce7415$a52b32d0$ef819870$@rainier66.com>
 <008401ce760d$dffbda00$9ff38e00$@rainier66.com> <51D17A6D.9060503@libero.it>
 <CAL_armitd=0WYzvyi=tgN3vmxMpjjmiEQrWHYdJBCcEM_TQG8w@mail.gmail.com>
 <00d801ce7673$4a346f30$de9d4d90$@rainier66.com>
 <018601ce77a2$05fe9220$11fbb660$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <018d01ce77aa$b87c1b90$297452b0$@rainier66.com>

>... On Behalf Of spike
>Subject: Re: [ExI] 23andme again

>...That makes for a hell of a note: some sleazy bastard does some crime,
gets away, some arbitrary period of time later, you figure out who it is,
and even where he lives.  The cops will not do anything about what you have
discovered, they don't act on that kind of information.  But you know who it
is...what happens next?  spike

_______________________________________________

Do forgive me for obsessing about this, but it is at least vaguely
transhumanist in the sense that it is a vision of the future society in
which we will live and attempt to achieve our transhumanist vision.

We know that crime is already changing as a result of the proliferation of
security cameras and home security alarm systems.  As technology advances,
citizens are empowered to solve crimes, more than the cops are in a way.
Reasoning: as ever more homes get sophisticated security systems that take
photos and store them on the internet, burglary becomes ever less profitable
and practical.  Since fewer people carry currency now, I would think mugging
must be declining; less profitable.  So the result is that we need fewer
cops.  So the ones remaining aren't all that terribly motivated to capture
and haul away their declining pool of clients: the sleazebags.  So we have
too many cops, and we need to lay off some of them.

At the same time, we are getting all these new tools for catching bad guys,
among them 23andMe.  We also know that there are a hundred ways to do
amateur sleuthing with a DNA signature.  Envision a crime victim who somehow
recovers the perp's DNA, sends it in, opens an account, then starts a
23-forum where the victim announce to everyone there: "Account Perp-66 is an
unknown bad guy.  A crisp K-note to the first person who can identify him,
and provide some compelling evidence."

I might take a shot at that for a thousand bucks, and I might even work at
developing a collection of scripts which would do the tricks I have learned.
The point is that we enter an era when we might be able to catch way more
bad guys for a very reasonable price.  We can easily imagine crime victims
putting up a hundred bucks to enter the perp's DNA into the database and a
thousand for identifying who it is.  What I don't know is what the legal
system will do if a private citizen catches the bastard; probably nothing.
Enforcement doesn't want competition in the enforcement business.

spike



From atymes at gmail.com  Wed Jul  3 06:49:18 2013
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2013 23:49:18 -0700
Subject: [ExI] head transplants
In-Reply-To: <1372707479.19557.YahooMailNeo@web121206.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <1372707479.19557.YahooMailNeo@web121206.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNQ2BHyt8gf5U5dAg0-VyRtD+Zjwzd6XqkyWazVKoVXfmA@mail.gmail.com>

I'll believe it's "now possible" when the first successful head
transplant in animals, with spinal cord reattachment, has
been accomplished.  Until then, it lies solidly in the realm
of future technology.  (Future tech that's likely to happen
some day, granted, but that day is not today.)


On Mon, Jul 1, 2013 at 12:37 PM, Gordon <gts_2000 at yahoo.com> wrote:

> You might get a new head someday, but you won't know about it.
>
> First-ever human head transplant is now possible, says neuroscientist
>
> http://qz.com/99413/first-ever-human-head-transplant-is-now-possible-says-neuroscientist/
>
> -gts
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From atymes at gmail.com  Wed Jul  3 07:35:19 2013
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2013 00:35:19 -0700
Subject: [ExI] 23andme again
In-Reply-To: <018d01ce77aa$b87c1b90$297452b0$@rainier66.com>
References: <51CB00B9.1010404@libero.it>
 <000c01ce7296$58bee750$0a3cb5f0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAOJFdb+b4mE62CpXstRJr9JWXWjvqWa0Q9xoyGyxxKvhJeHjdQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <000301ce72d2$323277f0$969767d0$@rainier66.com>
 <001f01ce7324$f7c9d6a0$e75d83e0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAOJFdb+Bri3r0wtJ+BY=pZyyUJbOZmxy3PC2W=0q7O+=HwKNcQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <002a01ce7348$0a4c5fa0$1ee51ee0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armggHDoJXnDxVm7WK=FuXSv+fkM0t1gN_CsFgHmOSjPuuA@mail.gmail.com>
 <006d01ce735d$ce8fdad0$6baf9070$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPGs0J_g52uK+hWPkJqrtqYcx_g3gM2+aGG4TSJ69vVSOWBk4w@mail.gmail.com>
 <20130627184859.GK24217@leitl.org>
 <00ac01ce736f$d0fa6d00$72ef4700$@rainier66.com>
 <CAOJFdbLL2DU=vrUERMOG7MhWf=33cecsin3=yDX8FOh+3Wh0dg@mail.gmail.com>
 <003401ce7415$a52b32d0$ef819870$@rainier66.com>
 <008401ce760d$dffbda00$9ff38e00$@rainier66.com>
 <51D17A6D.9060503@libero.it>
 <CAL_armitd=0WYzvyi=tgN3vmxMpjjmiEQrWHYdJBCcEM_TQG8w@mail.gmail.com>
 <00d801ce7673$4a346f30$de9d4d90$@rainier66.com>
 <018601ce77a2$05fe9220$11fbb660$@rainier66.com>
 <018d01ce77aa$b87c1b90$297452b0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNQhHHcDi=-r3kcmRRPxajJKJ9Bv=6Mg7VLCRTcV9gp=nQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jul 2, 2013 at 10:03 PM, spike <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:

> What I don't know is what the legal
> system will do if a private citizen catches the bastard; probably nothing.
> Enforcement doesn't want competition in the enforcement business.
>

Perhaps not, but if you go to a district attorney with court-admissible
evidence, including DNA evidence, that does solidly prove that person
X did the crime, said DA might well sign off on an arrest warrant and
proceed.  It's not like he needs to share the credit for cracking the
case.

(Of course, the evidence does need to be court-admissible.  But in
the scenario we're discussing, you've done the research to find what
is admissible and have followed strict guidelines in collecting the
evidence you present to him.  This might not be all the evidence you
have, but it's enough to prove the case on its own.)

Not wanting competition is an organizational thing.  Laziness and
greed are individual things, and as such tend to trump organizational
attitudes when brought into direct conflict like this.
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From painlord2k at libero.it  Wed Jul  3 08:05:38 2013
From: painlord2k at libero.it (Mirco Romanato)
Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2013 10:05:38 +0200
Subject: [ExI] 23andme again
In-Reply-To: <018601ce77a2$05fe9220$11fbb660$@rainier66.com>
References: <51CB00B9.1010404@libero.it>
 <CAOJFdb+b4mE62CpXstRJr9JWXWjvqWa0Q9xoyGyxxKvhJeHjdQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <000301ce72d2$323277f0$969767d0$@rainier66.com>
 <001f01ce7324$f7c9d6a0$e75d83e0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAOJFdb+Bri3r0wtJ+BY=pZyyUJbOZmxy3PC2W=0q7O+=HwKNcQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <002a01ce7348$0a4c5fa0$1ee51ee0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armggHDoJXnDxVm7WK=FuXSv+fkM0t1gN_CsFgHmOSjPuuA@mail.gmail.com>
 <006d01ce735d$ce8fdad0$6baf9070$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPGs0J_g52uK+hWPkJqrtqYcx_g3gM2+aGG4TSJ69vVSOWBk4w@mail.gmail.com>
 <20130627184859.GK24217@leitl.org>
 <00ac01ce736f$d0fa6d00$72ef4700$@rainier66.com>
 <CAOJFdbLL2DU=vrUERMOG7MhWf=33cecsin3=yDX8FOh+3Wh0dg@mail.gmail.com>
 <003401ce7415$a52b32d0$ef819870$@rainier66.com>
 <008401ce760d$dffbda00$9ff38e00$@rainier66.com> <51D17A6D.9060503@libero.it>
 <CAL_armitd=0WYzvyi=tgN3vmxMpjjmiEQrWHYdJBCcEM_TQG8w@mail.gmail.com>
 <00d801ce7673$4a346f30$de9d4d90$@rainier66.com>
 <018601ce77a2$05fe9220$11fbb660$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <51D3DB52.1030208@libero.it>

Il 03/07/2013 06:01, spike ha scritto:

> But imagine the perp does leave some trace of DNA, but that's all.  There
> are no witnesses, no security camera evidence, and even the fingerprints
> bring up no matches, so all you have is a DNA sample full stop.  Looks to me
> like you now have the power to send that sample to 23andMe, then you now
> have at least a list of the perp's distant cousins.  With a bit of detective
> work that you are willing to put in, but not the police department, you
> might be able to figure out whodunit, just by looking at the intersection of
> all the cousins.  If not, all you need to do is wait, because more and more
> people sign up for this all the time.


We have a case, in Italy, where we have traces of DNA found on the
victim of an homicide, a 13 years old girl.

People around the place accepted to submit their DNA to help the police
exclude them from the suspect list. It was a lot of people.
Then some matches happened.
Not of the suspect, but of some half-brother.
The problem is the father is dead and the man have no clue about an
half-brother. So, there is no lead to him, for now.

Asking females to give DNA samples is so un-PC.

Mirco



From painlord2k at libero.it  Wed Jul  3 09:32:59 2013
From: painlord2k at libero.it (Mirco Romanato)
Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2013 11:32:59 +0200
Subject: [ExI] 23andme again
In-Reply-To: <018d01ce77aa$b87c1b90$297452b0$@rainier66.com>
References: <51CB00B9.1010404@libero.it>
 <000301ce72d2$323277f0$969767d0$@rainier66.com>
 <001f01ce7324$f7c9d6a0$e75d83e0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAOJFdb+Bri3r0wtJ+BY=pZyyUJbOZmxy3PC2W=0q7O+=HwKNcQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <002a01ce7348$0a4c5fa0$1ee51ee0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armggHDoJXnDxVm7WK=FuXSv+fkM0t1gN_CsFgHmOSjPuuA@mail.gmail.com>
 <006d01ce735d$ce8fdad0$6baf9070$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPGs0J_g52uK+hWPkJqrtqYcx_g3gM2+aGG4TSJ69vVSOWBk4w@mail.gmail.com>
 <20130627184859.GK24217@leitl.org>
 <00ac01ce736f$d0fa6d00$72ef4700$@rainier66.com>
 <CAOJFdbLL2DU=vrUERMOG7MhWf=33cecsin3=yDX8FOh+3Wh0dg@mail.gmail.com>
 <003401ce7415$a52b32d0$ef819870$@rainier66.com>
 <008401ce760d$dffbda00$9ff38e00$@rainier66.com> <51D17A6D.9060503@libero.it>
 <CAL_armitd=0WYzvyi=tgN3vmxMpjjmiEQrWHYdJBCcEM_TQG8w@mail.gmail.com>
 <00d801ce7673$4a346f30$de9d4d90$@rainier66.com>
 <018601ce77a2$05fe9220$11fbb660$@rainier66.com>
 <018d01ce77aa$b87c1b90$297452b0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <51D3EFCB.7080002@libero.it>

Il 03/07/2013 07:03, spike ha scritto:

> We know that crime is already changing as a result of the proliferation of
> security cameras and home security alarm systems.  As technology advances,
> citizens are empowered to solve crimes, more than the cops are in a way.
> Reasoning: as ever more homes get sophisticated security systems that take
> photos and store them on the internet, burglary becomes ever less profitable
> and practical.  Since fewer people carry currency now, I would think mugging
> must be declining; less profitable.  So the result is that we need fewer
> cops.  So the ones remaining aren't all that terribly motivated to capture
> and haul away their declining pool of clients: the sleazebags.  So we have
> too many cops, and we need to lay off some of them.

No.
They will just multiply the laws, so the cops will have something to
find about you anyway.

If you look at the recent decades the number of laws in the western
democracies have ballooned in a way or another.

You could be arrested and / or prosecuted for any reason or no reason.
With or without evidences supporting the charge.
And, at least in Italy, they can found you guilty of something with no
direct proof, witness or anything (just read about the last trial of
Berlusconi). And this is about someone able to defend himself; spending
something like 300 M ? in lawyers to defend himself from the prosecutors
for 20 years and was always found not guilty or the statute of
limitation kicked in.

A common guy like me and you would land in jail. End of story.
You could be innocent like Jesus and you would end on the Cross willing
or not.

> At the same time, we are getting all these new tools for catching bad guys,
> among them 23andMe.  We also know that there are a hundred ways to do
> amateur sleuthing with a DNA signature.  Envision a crime victim who somehow
> recovers the perp's DNA, sends it in, opens an account, then starts a
> 23-forum where the victim announce to everyone there: "Account Perp-66 is an
> unknown bad guy.  A crisp K-note to the first person who can identify him,
> and provide some compelling evidence."

> I might take a shot at that for a thousand bucks, and I might even work at
> developing a collection of scripts which would do the tricks I have learned.
> The point is that we enter an era when we might be able to catch way more
> bad guys for a very reasonable price.  We can easily imagine crime victims
> putting up a hundred bucks to enter the perp's DNA into the database and a
> thousand for identifying who it is.  What I don't know is what the legal
> system will do if a private citizen catches the bastard; probably nothing.


> Enforcement doesn't want competition in the enforcement business.

This is because the government hate the Mafia.
They are in the same business: protection (for a fee) of the people
doing business in the territory the control, or else...

The problem, in my vision, is the bad guy you are thinking, people
leaving DNA traces around, is not the most brilliant dude. He could be
violent, but he will not be a great threat for a large number of people.

The problem is the large number of high level psychopathics in charge of
institutions. Their crimes do not leave DNA samples around, but wreck
the economy and the lives of people on a massive scale.

Mirco




From eugen at leitl.org  Wed Jul  3 09:43:36 2013
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2013 11:43:36 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Technology, Not Law, Limits Mass Surveillance
Message-ID: <20130703094336.GK24217@leitl.org>


http://www.technologyreview.com/view/516691/technology-not-law-limits-mass-surveillance/

Ashkan Soltani

July 1, 2013

Technology, Not Law, Limits Mass Surveillance

Improved technology enabled the NSA?s mass surveillance programs. Future
improvements will make collecting data on citizens easier and easier.

Recent revelations about the extent of surveillance by the U.S. National
Security Agency come as no surprise to those with a technical background in
the workings of digital communications. The leaked documents show how the NSA
has taken advantage of the increased use of digital communications and cloud
services, coupled with outdated privacy laws, to expand and streamline their
surveillance programs. This is a predictable response to the shrinking cost
and growing efficiency of surveillance brought about by new technology. The
extent to which technology has reduced the time and cost necessary to conduct
surveillance should play an important role in our national discussion of this
issue.

The American public previously, maybe unknowingly, relied on technical and
financial barriers to protect them from large-scale surveillance by the
government. These implicit protections have quickly eroded in recent years as
technology industry advances have reached intelligence agencies, and digital
communications technology has spread through society. As a result, we now
have to replace these ?naturally occurring? boundaries and refactor the law
to protect our privacy.

The ways in which we interact has drastically changed over the past decade.
The majority of our communications are now delivered and stored by
third-party services and cloud providers. E-mail, documents, phone calls, and
chats all go through Internet companies such as Google, Facebook, Skype, or
wireless carriers like Verizon, AT&T, or Sprint. And while distributed in
nature, the physical infrastructure underlying the World Wide Web relies on
key chokepoints which the government can, and is, monitoring. This makes
surveillance much easier because the NSA only needs to establish
relationships with a few critical companies to capture the majority of the
market they want to observe with few legal restrictions. The NSA has the
capability to observe hundreds of millions of people communicating using
these services with relatively little effort and cost.

Each of the NSA programs recently disclosed by the media is unique in the
type of data it accesses, but they all share a common thread: they have been
enabled by a massive increase in capacity and reduction in cost of
surveillance techniques.

NSA?s arrangement with just a few key telecom providers enables the
collection of phone records for over 300 million Americans without the need
to set up individual trap-and-tracer registers for each person. PRISM
provides programmatic access to the contents of all e-mails, voice
communications, and documents privately stored by a handful of cloud services
such as Gmail, Facebook, AOL, and Skype. A presidential directive, PPD20,
permits ?offensive? surveillance tools (i.e hacking) to be deployed anywhere
in the world, from the convenience of a desk at CIA headquarters in Langley.
Finally, Boundless Informant, the NSA?s system to track its own surveillance
activities, reveals that the agency collected over 97 billion pieces of
intelligence information worldwide in March 2013 alone. The collection,
storage, and processing of all this information would have been unimaginable
through analog surveillance.

Recent documents indicate that the cost of the programs described above
totaled roughly $140 million over the four years from 2002 to 2006, just a
miniscule portion of the NSA?s approximately $10 billion annual budget.
Spying no longer requires following people or planting bugs, but rather
filling out forms to demand access to an existing trove of information. The
NSA doesn?t bear the cost of collecting or storing data and they no longer
have to directly interact with their targets. The technology-enabled reach of
these programs is vast, especially when compared to the closest equivalent
possible just 10 years ago.

What we have learned about the NSA?s capabilities suggests a move toward
programmatic, automated surveillance previously unfathomable due to
limitations of computing speed, scale, and cost. Technical advances have both
reduced the barriers to surveillance and increased the NSA?s capacity for it.
We need to remember that this is a trend with a firm lower bound. Once the
cost of surveillance reaches zero we will be left with our outdated laws as
the only protection. Whatever policy actions are taken as a result of the
recent leaks should address the fact that technical barriers such as cost and
speed offer dwindling protection from unwarranted government surveillance
domestically and abroad.

Ashkan Soltani is an independent researcher and consultant focused on
privacy, security, and behavioral economics.

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From ALONZOTG at verizon.net  Mon Jul  1 16:31:16 2013
From: ALONZOTG at verizon.net (Alan Grimes)
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2013 12:31:16 -0400
Subject: [ExI] The problem of the time function.
Message-ID: <51D1AED4.5090008@verizon.net>

'ello. Here's a math problem for the uploaders.


The universal time function appears to be something like this: (grossly 
simplified because I'm not very smart):

     X' = f(X, k * X'')

Where k is on the order of 0.18/second.

Basically, the universe does permit limited signal propagation backwards 
in time. So how are you going to simulate that on a computer???

-- 
NOTICE: NEW E-MAIL ADDRESS, SEE ABOVE

Powers are not rights.



From eugen at leitl.org  Wed Jul  3 12:59:47 2013
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2013 14:59:47 +0200
Subject: [ExI] [Server-sky] S band versus phone
Message-ID: <20130703125947.GJ24217@leitl.org>

----- Forwarded message from Keith Lofstrom <keithl at kl-ic.com> -----

Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2013 05:49:53 -0700
From: Keith Lofstrom <keithl at kl-ic.com>
To: Michael Turner <michael.eugene.turner at gmail.com>
Cc: Keith Lofstrom <keithl at keithl.com>, Server Sky - Internet and Computing in Orbit <server-sky at server-sky.com>
Subject: [Server-sky] S band versus phone
User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.2i
Reply-To: keithl at keithl.com

On Tue, Jul 02, 2013 at 03:22:30PM +0900, Michael Turner wrote:
> It's been proposed (sorry for the vagueness, there's some ITAR
> sensitivity here from my source) that PhoneSat become a kind of
> standard cubesat bus. It will lack S-band of course but will have a
> camera and bluetooth.

My interest in S band is that the space station software radio is
a ram-facing agile system that has the bandwidth to collect lots
of video data.  I've been swapping emails with Jim Lux, the co-P.I.
at JPL, about this.

   http://spaceflightsystems.grc.nasa.gov/SOPO/SCO/SCaNTestbed/

To do the experiment I have in mind, we need to release into a
near-circular orbit - an apogee below ISS will have way too much
ram drag.  As it is, there will only be a few orbits (20? WAG)
before the orbit decays down into the high drag zone, and perhaps
50 more before reentry.  

The way the orbital mechanics works is that when an object is
"slowed" by drag, it drops into a lower orbit and revolves faster.
Relative to the launch point, it drops and appears to accelerate
forwards in the "ram" direction.  So the SCaN radio is pointed 
the right way, and the data collection systems are available to
downlink our data (a lot of video).    

> The "tent" could double as a de-orbiting mechanism later in flight.
> There's been some persuasive talk of a standard for deorbiting cubesat
> using this technique
> 
>    http://repository.tudelft.nl/view/ir/uuid%3A49d86db1-8909-4464-af1b-fe1655c9c376/
> 
> If there could at least be an option in the standard for tent-fabric
> transparency, there might be other space-sci/tech uses for it, by
> other researchers who'd like long-duration nanogravity themselves,
> together with solar insolation. Well, OK, maybe only other solar-sail
> researchers. But still.

That is good thinking.  There are many other research projects that can
use this;  if the tent is "evacuation pumped" to the rear, it recreates
conditions at higher altitudes for many different experiments, as well
as the insolation and black body characteristics at the high altitudes
if transparent.  

There is a business here.  A lot of researchers will just want to run
their experiments without worrying about all the complications of
managing a cubesat. 

There is already a precedent;  the US Naval Academy offers an
experimental compartment in a 2U cubesat to outside experimenters.
Plug your "sub-cube" into theirs, and they will provide power and
communication and mission control.  This is for cadet training;
these will soon be the officers who manage the Navy's space assets.

Keith

P.S. on the "Drag" web page, I show altitudes for the Virgin Galactic
spaceship 1 and 2 on the graph.  As Michael points out, those aren't
orbital, they move far slower and the drag is much less.  I should
redraw the graph with those points far below the line.  Or better yet,
I should attach sources and let one of you redraw it.

-- 
Keith Lofstrom          keithl at keithl.com         Voice (503)-520-1993
_______________________________________________
Server-sky mailing list
Server-sky at lists.server-sky.com
http://lists.server-sky.com/mailman/listinfo/server-sky

----- End forwarded message -----
-- 
Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://ativel.com http://postbiota.org
AC894EC5: 38A5 5F46 A4FF 59B8 336B  47EE F46E 3489 AC89 4EC5


From spike at rainier66.com  Wed Jul  3 13:14:30 2013
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike)
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2013 06:14:30 -0700
Subject: [ExI] 23andme again
In-Reply-To: <51D3DB52.1030208@libero.it>
References: <51CB00B9.1010404@libero.it>
 <CAOJFdb+b4mE62CpXstRJr9JWXWjvqWa0Q9xoyGyxxKvhJeHjdQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <000301ce72d2$323277f0$969767d0$@rainier66.com>
 <001f01ce7324$f7c9d6a0$e75d83e0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAOJFdb+Bri3r0wtJ+BY=pZyyUJbOZmxy3PC2W=0q7O+=HwKNcQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <002a01ce7348$0a4c5fa0$1ee51ee0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armggHDoJXnDxVm7WK=FuXSv+fkM0t1gN_CsFgHmOSjPuuA@mail.gmail.com>
 <006d01ce735d$ce8fdad0$6baf9070$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPGs0J_g52uK+hWPkJqrtqYcx_g3gM2+aGG4TSJ69vVSOWBk4w@mail.gmail.com>
 <20130627184859.GK24217@leitl.org>
 <00ac01ce736f$d0fa6d00$72ef4700$@rainier66.com>
 <CAOJFdbLL2DU=vrUERMOG7MhWf=33cecsin3=yDX8FOh+3Wh0dg@mail.gmail.com>
 <003401ce7415$a52b32d0$ef819870$@rainier66.com>
 <008401ce760d$dffbda00$9ff38e00$@rainier66.com> <51D17A6D.9060503@libero.it>
 <CAL_armitd=0WYzvyi=tgN3vmxMpjjmiEQrWHYdJBCcEM_TQG8w@mail.gmail.com>
 <00d801ce7673$4a346f30$de9d4d90$@rainier66.com>
 <018601ce77a2$05fe9220$11fbb660$@rainier66.com> <51D3DB52.1030208@libero.it>
Message-ID: <01c901ce77ef$40dce2f0$c296a8d0$@rainier66.com>

>... On Behalf Of Mirco Romanato
Subject: Re: [ExI] 23andme again

Il 03/07/2013 06:01, spike ha scritto:

>>... But imagine the perp does leave some trace of DNA, but that's all.
... all you need to do is wait, because more and more people sign up for
this all the time...spike

>...We have a case, in Italy, where we have traces of DNA found on the
victim of an homicide, a 13 years old girl.

>...People around the place accepted to submit their DNA ...
Not of the suspect, but of some half-brother.
The problem is the father is dead and the man have no clue about an
half-brother. So, there is no lead to him, for now.

>...Asking females to give DNA samples is so un-PC...Mirco

_____________________________________________

Disagree, there are important leads and highly informative evidence.  From
the half-brother, they know the identity of the late father.  We can
reconstruct his approximate place of residence throughout his life, then
look around for what women might have had contact with him, then later bore
an unexpected child.  This is a great example of a case that might be
solvable using crowd-sourcing.  You have plenty of people who might help for
free, because of the emotional pull of the slain child.  Plenty of people
have a teenage daughter, and if not, a niece or young cousin, and we all
have a mother.  Every parent's nightmare is the murderous child-stalker
still at large.  The case has hit a roadblock, but not necessarily a dead
end.

The next step is a worldwide legal basis for DNA sampling every guest of the
constabulary.  We currently use mugshots and fingerprints for every person
arrested, which stays on record even if the perp is released and found not
guilty.  These could be placed in some kind of database which could do
23-ish level genome matching forever.  

If such a system existed, we might even have people enter it voluntarily: I
would.  Reasoning, if I have a cousin, even distant, raping children, hell
yes I want to contribute to catching the bastard.  I would have no problem
informing my brother, my cousins, uncles, parents, my own son: Hey pal, if
you sire any illegitimate children, commit burglaries or pull off any major
bank heists in which you leave any DNA, you are BUSTED, as you damn should
be.  I seriously doubt any of that crowd would object.  Many of them would
want to be in that database too. 

spike 



From spike at rainier66.com  Wed Jul  3 13:48:55 2013
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike)
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2013 06:48:55 -0700
Subject: [ExI] 23andme again
In-Reply-To: <51D3EFCB.7080002@libero.it>
References: <51CB00B9.1010404@libero.it>
 <000301ce72d2$323277f0$969767d0$@rainier66.com>
 <001f01ce7324$f7c9d6a0$e75d83e0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAOJFdb+Bri3r0wtJ+BY=pZyyUJbOZmxy3PC2W=0q7O+=HwKNcQ@mail.gmail.com>
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 <006d01ce735d$ce8fdad0$6baf9070$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPGs0J_g52uK+hWPkJqrtqYcx_g3gM2+aGG4TSJ69vVSOWBk4w@mail.gmail.com>
 <20130627184859.GK24217@leitl.org>
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 <008401ce760d$dffbda00$9ff38e00$@rainier66.com> <51D17A6D.9060503@libero.it>
 <CAL_armitd=0WYzvyi=tgN3vmxMpjjmiEQrWHYdJBCcEM_TQG8w@mail.gmail.com>
 <00d801ce7673$4a346f30$de9d4d90$@rainier66.com>
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Message-ID: <01d601ce77f4$10ab4b30$3201e190$@rainier66.com>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Mirco Romanato
>...

>...A common guy like me and you would land in jail. End of story...

Ja, that is why the IRS story is having such impact on the US.  Before we
had a bill of rights which protects us to some degree from unlawful search
and seizure.  Now it is clear the IRS can come knocking with no warrant, no
justification, no evidence required, no accountability.  We have freedom of
speech, but it can still get you an IRS audit, which is worse than going
into the criminal court system.

>...You could be innocent like Jesus and you would end on the Cross willing
or not...

Innocent like Jesus?  Like hell!  Did you forget about this ugly little
incident:

14 And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the
changers of money sitting:

15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of
the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money,
and overthrew the tables;

16 And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my
Father's house an house of merchandise... {John Chapter 2}

How do they figure this guy was sinless?  Interfering with religious
merchandising in the first degree.  Clearly premeditated, from that scourge
business.  They could have skipped the whole trial, cat-o-nine-tails, crown
of thorns, execution, resurrection etc, sent him directly to the Roman IRS,
no one would have ever heard from him again; resulting in no Christianity,
no crusades, no Easter egg hunt at the White House with the IRS director.
How different history might have turned out.  In modern times you can get in
trouble for interfering with even a phony religion; back then a guy could
commit actual scattering of sacred lucre, then just walk away across the
lake.

>...The problem, in my vision, is the bad guy you are thinking, people
leaving DNA traces around, is not the most brilliant dude. He could be
violent, but he will not be a great threat for a large number of people...
Mirco

Ja.  I am thinking of the whole notion of volunteers working together,
creating databases to catch rapists and child-murderers.  The nature of
those crimes means they nearly always leave traces of DNA.  Even if rare,
the impact those few have had on society is enormous, for it deeply
influences the way children are allowed to move and play. 

spike 

_______________________________________________





From eugen at leitl.org  Wed Jul  3 16:32:19 2013
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2013 18:32:19 +0200
Subject: [ExI] The Oil Drum is shuttering,
 any help with setting up a successor site?
Message-ID: <20130703163219.GW24217@leitl.org>


http://www.theoildrum.com/node/10059

An End to Eight Years of The Oil Drum

Posted by Rembrandt on July 3, 2013 - 11:47am

Topic: Miscellaneous

Tags: the oil drum, tod [list all tags]

Dear Readers of The Oil Drum,

A few weeks ago the ISEOF board (The Institute for Energy and Our Future that
facilitates The Oil Drum), Euan, Super G, JoulesBurn, and Myself, met to
discuss the future of The Oil Drum. A discussion we have had several times in
the last year, due to scarcity of new content caused by a dwindling number of
contributors. Despite our best efforts to fill this gap we have not been able
to significantly improve the flow of high quality articles.

Because of this and the high expense of running the site, the board has
unanimously decided that the best course of action is to convert the site to
a static archive of previously published material as of 31st July 2013. We
will continue to post articles up to this date. Afterwards any articles will
be held as a public archive into the foreseeable future, so that others can
continue to learn from the breadth and depth of knowledge published by our
many authors, over the 8+ history of this remarkable volunteer effort.

We sincerely thank everyone who has been part of the TOD community - authors,
staff and especially commenter's and readers - for contributing to the
success of the site. It is unusual for a site which is based primarily on
volunteer effort to continue this long.


From atymes at gmail.com  Wed Jul  3 16:40:19 2013
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2013 09:40:19 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The problem of the time function.
In-Reply-To: <51D1AED4.5090008@verizon.net>
References: <51D1AED4.5090008@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNRje8rXJ-Neo4CzGiGcLc3CWAJgNjH+R8XttOcMkO+5Qg@mail.gmail.com>

First step: what exactly do you mean by "universal time
function", and from what data do you conclude that this
is the case?

It helps to weed out the possibility that you have simply
misunderstood, before you spend much time trying to
model this.  Doing so by breaking it into a complete but
simple* explanation will also (assuming you understood
correctly) assist with the process of modeling, because
breaking it down like this renders components more
directly useful in said activity.

* These two qualities may at first seem inherently
opposed, but they are not.  The explanation needs to
handwave as little as possible, but at the same time,
all the steps are easily understood on their own.


On Mon, Jul 1, 2013 at 9:31 AM, Alan Grimes <ALONZOTG at verizon.net> wrote:

> 'ello. Here's a math problem for the uploaders.
>
>
> The universal time function appears to be something like this: (grossly
> simplified because I'm not very smart):
>
>     X' = f(X, k * X'')
>
> Where k is on the order of 0.18/second.
>
> Basically, the universe does permit limited signal propagation backwards
> in time. So how are you going to simulate that on a computer???
>
> --
> NOTICE: NEW E-MAIL ADDRESS, SEE ABOVE
>
> Powers are not rights.
>
> ______________________________**_________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/**mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-**chat<http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat>
>
-------------- next part --------------
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From pharos at gmail.com  Wed Jul  3 17:13:19 2013
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2013 18:13:19 +0100
Subject: [ExI] The Oil Drum is shuttering,
 any help with setting up a successor site?
In-Reply-To: <20130703163219.GW24217@leitl.org>
References: <20130703163219.GW24217@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <CAL_armgd7pMdzZP=FUPmZfDJKEu8k8MSYFz_VYfSDwpTMmWTNg@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 at 5:32 PM, Eugen Leitl wrote:
>
> http://www.theoildrum.com/node/10059
>
> An End to Eight Years of The Oil Drum
>


The Automatic Earth site has a similar outlook, specifically the energy section:
<http://theautomaticearth.com/Energy/>


BillK


From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Wed Jul  3 20:05:38 2013
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2013 13:05:38 -0700
Subject: [ExI]  Technology, Not Law, Limits Mass Surveillance
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB6YJCKx06RBnpBrFc-+M03pnO+GCcWhMOLcpYcCkyeNLg@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 at 5:00 AM,  Eugen Leitl <eugen at leitl.org> wrote:

> From: Eugen Leitl <eugen at leitl.org>
>
> http://www.technologyreview.com/view/516691/technology-not-law-limits-mass-surveillance/
>
> Ashkan Soltani
>
> July 1, 2013
>
> Technology, Not Law, Limits Mass Surveillance
>
> Improved technology enabled the NSA?s mass surveillance programs. Future
> improvements will make collecting data on citizens easier and easier.

> Recent revelations about the extent of surveillance by the U.S. National
> Security Agency come as no surprise to those with a technical background in
> the workings of digital communications. The leaked documents show how the NSA
> has taken advantage of the increased use of digital communications and cloud
> services, coupled with outdated privacy laws, to expand and streamline their
> surveillance programs. This is a predictable response to the shrinking cost
> and growing efficiency of surveillance brought about by new technology. The
> extent to which technology has reduced the time and cost necessary to conduct
> surveillance should play an important role in our national discussion of this
> issue.

Given the exposed facts and human nature, I can make a prediction as
to where this story will eventually go.

A subset of the information the NSA collects provides considerable
insight into predicting the movement of stock prices.  This is
actually a reasonable thing to do in the context of terrorists
attacks.

Though it was either refuted or swept under the rug, there were a lot
of stories about the stocks of United and American Airlines being
shorted in the days leading up to 9/11.

Given the nature of NSA and the low chances of being caught, how
likely do you think it is that someone, maybe a lot of someones, has
been using the information to effectively play the stock market?  It
might be noted that senators and representatives do quite a bit better
than average with the stocks they trade during the time they are in
office.  For that, all they need is a general idea of how the
purchases of the government will impact the company's stock.

I don't know how hard it would be for reporters to find people in the
venn diagram who have done considerably better than average in the
stock market and have a connection to the NSA.

But it might lead them to a significant story.

I have no idea if it is related, but the high frequency trading
programs have recently been performing poorly.  For data input to
those programs, I can imagine nothing better than the NSA's feed.

Keith


From msd001 at gmail.com  Wed Jul  3 21:36:30 2013
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2013 17:36:30 -0400
Subject: [ExI] 23andme again
In-Reply-To: <01d601ce77f4$10ab4b30$3201e190$@rainier66.com>
References: <51CB00B9.1010404@libero.it>
 <000301ce72d2$323277f0$969767d0$@rainier66.com>
 <001f01ce7324$f7c9d6a0$e75d83e0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAOJFdb+Bri3r0wtJ+BY=pZyyUJbOZmxy3PC2W=0q7O+=HwKNcQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <002a01ce7348$0a4c5fa0$1ee51ee0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armggHDoJXnDxVm7WK=FuXSv+fkM0t1gN_CsFgHmOSjPuuA@mail.gmail.com>
 <006d01ce735d$ce8fdad0$6baf9070$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPGs0J_g52uK+hWPkJqrtqYcx_g3gM2+aGG4TSJ69vVSOWBk4w@mail.gmail.com>
 <20130627184859.GK24217@leitl.org>
 <00ac01ce736f$d0fa6d00$72ef4700$@rainier66.com>
 <CAOJFdbLL2DU=vrUERMOG7MhWf=33cecsin3=yDX8FOh+3Wh0dg@mail.gmail.com>
 <003401ce7415$a52b32d0$ef819870$@rainier66.com>
 <008401ce760d$dffbda00$9ff38e00$@rainier66.com>
 <51D17A6D.9060503@libero.it>
 <CAL_armitd=0WYzvyi=tgN3vmxMpjjmiEQrWHYdJBCcEM_TQG8w@mail.gmail.com>
 <00d801ce7673$4a346f30$de9d4d90$@rainier66.com>
 <018601ce77a2$05fe9220$11fbb660$@rainier66.com>
 <018d01ce77aa$b87c1b90$297452b0$@rainier66.com>
 <51D3EFCB.7080002@libero.it>
 <01d601ce77f4$10ab4b30$3201e190$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAOJFdbLJj_7P28_S80EZhm9zV=W03nXPjNCKiHxaBk5t2jNcPw@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 at 9:48 AM, spike <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:
> -----Original Message-----
> From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
> [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Mirco Romanato
>>...The problem, in my vision, is the bad guy you are thinking, people
> leaving DNA traces around, is not the most brilliant dude. He could be
> violent, but he will not be a great threat for a large number of people...
> Mirco
>
> Ja.  I am thinking of the whole notion of volunteers working together,
> creating databases to catch rapists and child-murderers.  The nature of
> those crimes means they nearly always leave traces of DNA.  Even if rare,
> the impact those few have had on society is enormous, for it deeply
> influences the way children are allowed to move and play.

Is it bad that I'm thinking of foils to your plans?

Suppose I swipe a copy of spike's gene sequence directly from 23andMe
computers.  Then I get a 3D printer, DIY bio hacking genetic materials
cooker, and now I have a patsy to take the blame for whatever crime I
want to place this material.  Ok sure, I don't have an complete match
for spike - but i'm not trying to clone anyone, just provide a
conclusive enough match against the database to create a fraudulent
positive ID.

As clever as you think you will be catching the crooks, plan on the
crooks getting more clever too.


From spike at rainier66.com  Wed Jul  3 22:40:51 2013
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike)
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2013 15:40:51 -0700
Subject: [ExI] 23andme again
In-Reply-To: <CAOJFdbLJj_7P28_S80EZhm9zV=W03nXPjNCKiHxaBk5t2jNcPw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <51CB00B9.1010404@libero.it>
 <000301ce72d2$323277f0$969767d0$@rainier66.com>
 <001f01ce7324$f7c9d6a0$e75d83e0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAOJFdb+Bri3r0wtJ+BY=pZyyUJbOZmxy3PC2W=0q7O+=HwKNcQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <002a01ce7348$0a4c5fa0$1ee51ee0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armggHDoJXnDxVm7WK=FuXSv+fkM0t1gN_CsFgHmOSjPuuA@mail.gmail.com>
 <006d01ce735d$ce8fdad0$6baf9070$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPGs0J_g52uK+hWPkJqrtqYcx_g3gM2+aGG4TSJ69vVSOWBk4w@mail.gmail.com>
 <20130627184859.GK24217@leitl.org>
 <00ac01ce736f$d0fa6d00$72ef4700$@rainier66.com>
 <CAOJFdbLL2DU=vrUERMOG7MhWf=33cecsin3=yDX8FOh+3Wh0dg@mail.gmail.com>
 <003401ce7415$a52b32d0$ef819870$@rainier66.com>
 <008401ce760d$dffbda00$9ff38e00$@rainier66.com> <51D17A6D.9060503@libero.it>
 <CAL_armitd=0WYzvyi=tgN3vmxMpjjmiEQrWHYdJBCcEM_TQG8w@mail.gmail.com>
 <00d801ce7673$4a346f30$de9d4d90$@rainier66.com>
 <018601ce77a2$05fe9220$11fbb660$@rainier66.com>
 <018d01ce77aa$b87c1b90$297452b0$@rainier66.com> <51D3EFCB.7080002@libero.it>
 <01d601ce77f4$10ab4b30$3201e190$@rainier66.com> <CAOJ
 FdbLJj_7P28_S80EZhm9zV=W03nXPjNCKiHxaBk5t2jNcPw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00a501ce783e$601557c0$20400740$@rainier66.com>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Mike Dougherty
...
>
>>... Ja.  I am thinking of the whole notion of volunteers working together,

> creating databases to catch rapists and child-murderers.  The nature 
> of those crimes means they nearly always leave traces of DNA.  Even if 
> rare, the impact those few have had on society is enormous, for it 
> deeply influences the way children are allowed to move and play.

>...Is it bad that I'm thinking of foils to your plans?

No, it is good.  If there are new developments, everyone needs to know about
it.  The new-ish development is that paternity can be indirectly determined
by comparing sufficient numbers of cousins and finding their intersection.
If there is any possible way to take genome files off of 23andMe, everyone
needs to know about that, forthwith.

>...Suppose I swipe a copy of spike's gene sequence directly from 23andMe
computers.  Then I get a 3D printer, DIY bio hacking genetic materials
cooker, and now I have a patsy to take the blame for whatever crime I want
to place this material.  Ok sure, I don't have an complete match for spike -
but i'm not trying to clone anyone, just provide a conclusive enough match
against the database to create a fraudulent positive ID...

Good that you mention that Michael.  We need some kind of system to prevent
this kind of thing.  If my anticipated development actually occurs, that
medical insurance groups will begin cherry-picking based on DNA profiles,
then we need some means of preventing the insurance companies from inserting
signals into the genome file to convince proles they are at risk, so they
should pay more.  The insurance companies will take care of themselves to
prevent risk-markery people from borrowing the genome files of the
non-risk-markery people to get their insurance cheaper.

>...As clever as you think you will be catching the crooks, plan on the
crooks getting more clever too...
_______________________________________________

Ja.  The term crooks vaguely implies those who wish to steal.  I don't care
that much about catching them.  The ones I want is to catch are the violent
criminals and rapists.  I don't really perceive that set as getting any
smarter over time; if anything perhaps dumber.  Those who would steal by
fraud, ja, definitely getting smarter.

spike



From pharos at gmail.com  Wed Jul  3 23:05:45 2013
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2013 00:05:45 +0100
Subject: [ExI] 23andme again
In-Reply-To: <00a501ce783e$601557c0$20400740$@rainier66.com>
References: <51CB00B9.1010404@libero.it>
 <000301ce72d2$323277f0$969767d0$@rainier66.com>
 <001f01ce7324$f7c9d6a0$e75d83e0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAOJFdb+Bri3r0wtJ+BY=pZyyUJbOZmxy3PC2W=0q7O+=HwKNcQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <002a01ce7348$0a4c5fa0$1ee51ee0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armggHDoJXnDxVm7WK=FuXSv+fkM0t1gN_CsFgHmOSjPuuA@mail.gmail.com>
 <006d01ce735d$ce8fdad0$6baf9070$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPGs0J_g52uK+hWPkJqrtqYcx_g3gM2+aGG4TSJ69vVSOWBk4w@mail.gmail.com>
 <20130627184859.GK24217@leitl.org>
 <00ac01ce736f$d0fa6d00$72ef4700$@rainier66.com>
 <CAOJFdbLL2DU=vrUERMOG7MhWf=33cecsin3=yDX8FOh+3Wh0dg@mail.gmail.com>
 <003401ce7415$a52b32d0$ef819870$@rainier66.com>
 <008401ce760d$dffbda00$9ff38e00$@rainier66.com>
 <51D17A6D.9060503@libero.it>
 <CAL_armitd=0WYzvyi=tgN3vmxMpjjmiEQrWHYdJBCcEM_TQG8w@mail.gmail.com>
 <00d801ce7673$4a346f30$de9d4d90$@rainier66.com>
 <018601ce77a2$05fe9220$11fbb660$@rainier66.com>
 <018d01ce77aa$b87c1b90$297452b0$@rainier66.com>
 <51D3EFCB.7080002@libero.it>
 <01d601ce77f4$10ab4b30$3201e190$@rainier66.com>
 <CAOJFdbLJj_7P28_S80EZhm9zV=W03nXPjNCKiHxaBk5t2jNcPw@mail.gmail.com>
 <00a501ce783e$601557c0$20400740$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armj7MANJWO531DjRzTy299RCS1LcJAEreCp+QGSebd7v2g@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 at 11:40 PM, spike wrote:
<snip>
> Ja.  The term crooks vaguely implies those who wish to steal.  I don't care
> that much about catching them.  The ones I want is to catch are the violent
> criminals and rapists.  I don't really perceive that set as getting any
> smarter over time; if anything perhaps dumber.  Those who would steal by
> fraud, ja, definitely getting smarter.
>

Remember that female paedophilia is vastly under-reported.
Some estimates put females as about 20% of paedophiles.

<http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2009/oct/04/uk-female-child-sex-offenders>

It's not all about violent males.

BillK


From msd001 at gmail.com  Thu Jul  4 01:12:00 2013
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2013 21:12:00 -0400
Subject: [ExI] 23andme again
In-Reply-To: <00a501ce783e$601557c0$20400740$@rainier66.com>
References: <51CB00B9.1010404@libero.it>
 <000301ce72d2$323277f0$969767d0$@rainier66.com>
 <001f01ce7324$f7c9d6a0$e75d83e0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAOJFdb+Bri3r0wtJ+BY=pZyyUJbOZmxy3PC2W=0q7O+=HwKNcQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <002a01ce7348$0a4c5fa0$1ee51ee0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armggHDoJXnDxVm7WK=FuXSv+fkM0t1gN_CsFgHmOSjPuuA@mail.gmail.com>
 <006d01ce735d$ce8fdad0$6baf9070$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPGs0J_g52uK+hWPkJqrtqYcx_g3gM2+aGG4TSJ69vVSOWBk4w@mail.gmail.com>
 <20130627184859.GK24217@leitl.org>
 <00ac01ce736f$d0fa6d00$72ef4700$@rainier66.com>
 <CAOJFdbLL2DU=vrUERMOG7MhWf=33cecsin3=yDX8FOh+3Wh0dg@mail.gmail.com>
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 <51D3EFCB.7080002@libero.it>
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 <00a501ce783e$601557c0$20400740$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAOJFdbLYpUtRP64o5w527a4VuT3=jFA1=w1rB4vKYRygTVNBOQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 at 6:40 PM, spike <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:
>>...Suppose I swipe a copy of spike's gene sequence directly from 23andMe
> computers.  Then I get a 3D printer, DIY bio hacking genetic materials
> cooker, and now I have a patsy to take the blame for whatever crime I want
> to place this material.  Ok sure, I don't have an complete match for spike -
> but i'm not trying to clone anyone, just provide a conclusive enough match
> against the database to create a fraudulent positive ID...
>
> Good that you mention that Michael.  We need some kind of system to prevent
> this kind of thing.  If my anticipated development actually occurs, that
> medical insurance groups will begin cherry-picking based on DNA profiles,
> then we need some means of preventing the insurance companies from inserting
> signals into the genome file to convince proles they are at risk, so they
> should pay more.  The insurance companies will take care of themselves to
> prevent risk-markery people from borrowing the genome files of the
> non-risk-markery people to get their insurance cheaper.

As I continued to think about my first proposal for incriminating the
unsuspecting 23andSpike I realized that if I could hack the computer,
it would be far easier to simply swap a few records in the database.
Now my genetics point to your information and I've succeeded in a kind
of identity theft.  In this case, there's probably not as much
monitoring for integrity on this data so I'm probably going to get
away with it for longer than stealing your credit card(s).  I wonder
if it would be sufficiently confusing to swap my profile in several
databases so the cross-match from 23andMe to NSA's DB to Google/Apple
DB, etc. would be strangely inaccurate.  Of course if only my own was
incorrect it could be discerned and fixed.  I'll be sure to swap a few
thousand records in several disconnected sets/graphs.  At least I
imagine this is easier than the actual biological parts of creating
DNA from computer files... but I'm no DIY geneticist.  There may be a
point where hobby genome creation is no more expensive than 3D
printing.  How this will impact laws should be interesting.

>>...As clever as you think you will be catching the crooks, plan on the
> crooks getting more clever too...
>
> Ja.  The term crooks vaguely implies those who wish to steal.  I don't care
> that much about catching them.  The ones I want is to catch are the violent
> criminals and rapists.  I don't really perceive that set as getting any
> smarter over time; if anything perhaps dumber.  Those who would steal by
> fraud, ja, definitely getting smarter.

ok, crooks may not have implied the full scope of my intent.  If I
wanted to destroy your public image, personal brand, career
opportunity, or political aspirations I need only subject your DNA to
a host of paternity claims (you untrustworthy philanderer) or place
your DNA at the scene of a horrendous crime (which I would have to
outsource to some thugs)

I appreciate that DNA is currently a highly accurate form of biometric
identification.  The systems we use to track and match these
biological signatures are hardly foolproof.  Whether this will ever be
explained to the proles remains to be discovered.


From brent.allsop at canonizer.com  Thu Jul  4 02:41:27 2013
From: brent.allsop at canonizer.com (Brent Allsop)
Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2013 20:41:27 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Bitcion Moore's Law?
In-Reply-To: <1372050277.1634.YahooMailNeo@web121204.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <51C7CDC8.7060709@canonizer.com>
 <1372050277.1634.YahooMailNeo@web121204.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <51D4E0D7.5080501@canonizer.com>


Hi Gordon,

Interesting that you have such a different POV.

So then given your best guess, what would you say is the most likely 
value of Bitcion one year from now.  More or less than the predicted 
100% increase?  I figure we should be in very much agreement on this, 
even if we do disagree on the "Moore's law"ness of such predictions?  
Why is it that everyone misses and ignores the important things people 
agree on, yet focus on much less important disagreements?

I also have troubles understanding how you can say that "currency and 
commodity markets don't work that way".

It seems to me, the value of Gold is exactly the result of two "moores 
laws" playing against each other.  Number one, the deemand, which is 
increasing exponentually, paralelling the growth of humanity and the 
economy.  And second, the growth of Gold supply has been more or less 
growing exponentially, for all history, especially when the price gets 
high like it has been. There is an old popular adage that an ounce of 
Gold has always been equal to the value of a good Man's suit.  The only 
reason this has been true, for centuries, is because of these two mores 
law like behaviors have been so closely matched.  You'll probably point 
out that an ounce of Gold can, today, pay for many men's suits.  And 
I"ll just fire back that the price is way ahead of itself, and precisely 
why it is dramatically crashing in value, and will continue, likely tell 
it get's back to the price of a man's suit.  And of course, now, Gold 
has a Big competitor, so my prediction is that it could even drop 
further, because of this.

I will agree with you that fiat currency, controlled by any central 
resurve, does not behave according to any Moore's law, precisely because 
the central authority intervenes to keep a fairly constant inflation.  
But I don't see how you can think that Bitcion, and it's restricted 
supply nature, isn't any different than any such fiat currency!?

It seems to me, you're just focusing on the short term 'commodity' 
prices and such.   I completely agree with you that there is no "moore's 
law" with any of that.  But I don't care about any of that, and nobody 
can predict any of that.  What I like to get a hold of, are the long 
term exponential trends and laws that will always, in the long run, 
drastically overwhelm all such temporary roller coaster noise.

Brent


On 6/23/2013 11:04 PM, Gordon wrote:
> Brent Allsop <brent.allsop at canonizer.com> wrote:
>
> > The new version of the "Canonized Law of the Crypto Coin" camp
> > predicting future values of Bitcion just went live.
>
> > http://canonizer.com/topic.asp/154/2
>
> >It's predicting a continued Moore's Law like 100% / year growth...
>
> I have difficulty believing there is anything like a Moore's Law for 
> Bitcoin. Currency and commodity markets don't work that way, and I 
> don't see why Bitcoin should be different.
>
> Gordon

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From spike at rainier66.com  Thu Jul  4 05:57:00 2013
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike)
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2013 22:57:00 -0700
Subject: [ExI] doug engelbart has died
Message-ID: <005901ce787b$4dd1aae0$e97500a0$@rainier66.com>

Damn.

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2013/jul/04/doug-engelbart-computer-mou
se-dies

 

 

Doug Engelbart, a visionary who invented the computer mouse and developed
other technology that has transformed the way people work, play and
communicate, has died. He was 88.

The Computer History Museum in Mountain View, California, where Engelbart
had been a fellow since 2005, said on Wednesday that it was notified of the
death in an email from his daughter and biographer, Christina.

 

 

spike

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From mrjones2020 at gmail.com  Thu Jul  4 13:00:35 2013
From: mrjones2020 at gmail.com (J.R. Jones)
Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2013 09:00:35 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Technology, Not Law, Limits Mass Surveillance
In-Reply-To: <20130703094336.GK24217@leitl.org>
References: <20130703094336.GK24217@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <CADDVf2+xAZ-JEcu0EVPSckqv_E4acZpvm7n7DGF4bVWe0Z7OfA@mail.gmail.com>

Scary.  Encryption encryption encryption huh?  Carrier pigeons?


On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 at 5:43 AM, Eugen Leitl <eugen at leitl.org> wrote:

>
>
> http://www.technologyreview.com/view/516691/technology-not-law-limits-mass-surveillance/
>
> Ashkan Soltani
>
> July 1, 2013
>
> Technology, Not Law, Limits Mass Surveillance
>
> Improved technology enabled the NSA?s mass surveillance programs. Future
> improvements will make collecting data on citizens easier and easier.
>
> Recent revelations about the extent of surveillance by the U.S. National
> Security Agency come as no surprise to those with a technical background in
> the workings of digital communications. The leaked documents show how the
> NSA
> has taken advantage of the increased use of digital communications and
> cloud
> services, coupled with outdated privacy laws, to expand and streamline
> their
> surveillance programs. This is a predictable response to the shrinking cost
> and growing efficiency of surveillance brought about by new technology. The
> extent to which technology has reduced the time and cost necessary to
> conduct
> surveillance should play an important role in our national discussion of
> this
> issue.
>
> The American public previously, maybe unknowingly, relied on technical and
> financial barriers to protect them from large-scale surveillance by the
> government. These implicit protections have quickly eroded in recent years
> as
> technology industry advances have reached intelligence agencies, and
> digital
> communications technology has spread through society. As a result, we now
> have to replace these ?naturally occurring? boundaries and refactor the law
> to protect our privacy.
>
> The ways in which we interact has drastically changed over the past decade.
> The majority of our communications are now delivered and stored by
> third-party services and cloud providers. E-mail, documents, phone calls,
> and
> chats all go through Internet companies such as Google, Facebook, Skype, or
> wireless carriers like Verizon, AT&T, or Sprint. And while distributed in
> nature, the physical infrastructure underlying the World Wide Web relies on
> key chokepoints which the government can, and is, monitoring. This makes
> surveillance much easier because the NSA only needs to establish
> relationships with a few critical companies to capture the majority of the
> market they want to observe with few legal restrictions. The NSA has the
> capability to observe hundreds of millions of people communicating using
> these services with relatively little effort and cost.
>
> Each of the NSA programs recently disclosed by the media is unique in the
> type of data it accesses, but they all share a common thread: they have
> been
> enabled by a massive increase in capacity and reduction in cost of
> surveillance techniques.
>
> NSA?s arrangement with just a few key telecom providers enables the
> collection of phone records for over 300 million Americans without the need
> to set up individual trap-and-tracer registers for each person. PRISM
> provides programmatic access to the contents of all e-mails, voice
> communications, and documents privately stored by a handful of cloud
> services
> such as Gmail, Facebook, AOL, and Skype. A presidential directive, PPD20,
> permits ?offensive? surveillance tools (i.e hacking) to be deployed
> anywhere
> in the world, from the convenience of a desk at CIA headquarters in
> Langley.
> Finally, Boundless Informant, the NSA?s system to track its own
> surveillance
> activities, reveals that the agency collected over 97 billion pieces of
> intelligence information worldwide in March 2013 alone. The collection,
> storage, and processing of all this information would have been
> unimaginable
> through analog surveillance.
>
> Recent documents indicate that the cost of the programs described above
> totaled roughly $140 million over the four years from 2002 to 2006, just a
> miniscule portion of the NSA?s approximately $10 billion annual budget.
> Spying no longer requires following people or planting bugs, but rather
> filling out forms to demand access to an existing trove of information. The
> NSA doesn?t bear the cost of collecting or storing data and they no longer
> have to directly interact with their targets. The technology-enabled reach
> of
> these programs is vast, especially when compared to the closest equivalent
> possible just 10 years ago.
>
> What we have learned about the NSA?s capabilities suggests a move toward
> programmatic, automated surveillance previously unfathomable due to
> limitations of computing speed, scale, and cost. Technical advances have
> both
> reduced the barriers to surveillance and increased the NSA?s capacity for
> it.
> We need to remember that this is a trend with a firm lower bound. Once the
> cost of surveillance reaches zero we will be left with our outdated laws as
> the only protection. Whatever policy actions are taken as a result of the
> recent leaks should address the fact that technical barriers such as cost
> and
> speed offer dwindling protection from unwarranted government surveillance
> domestically and abroad.
>
> Ashkan Soltani is an independent researcher and consultant focused on
> privacy, security, and behavioral economics.
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "ZS-P2P" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to zs-p2p+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to zs-p2p at googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/zs-p2p/20130703094336.GK24217%40leitl.org
> .
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From brent.allsop at canonizer.com  Thu Jul  4 16:01:48 2013
From: brent.allsop at canonizer.com (Brent Allsop)
Date: Thu, 04 Jul 2013 10:01:48 -0600
Subject: [ExI] [mta] Re:  Bitcion Moore's Law?
In-Reply-To: <CAB2H9XK6bg-8_K75YiwSc_pX+bd1nZtxPJNCrVr9XteEmQNccg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <51C7CDC8.7060709@canonizer.com>
 <1372050277.1634.YahooMailNeo@web121204.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <51D4E0D7.5080501@canonizer.com>
 <CAB2H9XK6bg-8_K75YiwSc_pX+bd1nZtxPJNCrVr9XteEmQNccg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <51D59C6C.6000105@canonizer.com>


Hi Carl and Gordon,

Hmm.  I completely agree with all this - that "currencies are 
representations of value", and that they "only grow in relation to the 
underlying productivity of their economies".  But that is the point.  If 
the underlying economy is growing exponentually, similare to Moore's 
Law, then since Bitcions are limited in quantity, they must 
comparatively grow in value to adequately handle the usage growth in 
demand in any exponentially growing economy?

Gordon said he "has difficulty believing there is a Moore's Law for 
Bitcoins".  So where is the disconnect, if the underlying economy, and 
demand, in the long term is growing exponentially?

As you can see in this historical graph of Bitcoin valuation growth: 
http://canonizer.com/topic.asp/154/2. It has so far followed more of a 
Moore's law than almost anything else.  So how much more of this kind of 
Moore's Law Growth will be required before you'll jump camps and admit 
that there is a Moore's Law like growth in value of Bitcoins?  In other 
words, what kind of evidence will falsify your beliefs?  Obviously, if 
there is a deviation in this so far very linear (on a logarithmic graph) 
growth pattern, this will falsify my predictions.  So, again, if you 
think there will be a deviation from this kind of very linear growth, 
what do you think this deviation would most likely be?  More growth?  
Less growth?  Any random growth that is just not Moore's Law like linear 
growth which we've seen so far? What, exactly, are you 
saying/predicting, and where do we disagree, if we indeed do disagree?

Brent Allsop


On 7/4/2013 2:18 AM, Carl Youngblood wrote:
> I agree with Gordon. Currencies are representations of value, not 
> actual resources. Markets are ways of exchanging value, and they only 
> grow in relation to the underlying productivity of their economies.
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 4, 2013 at 3:41 AM, Brent Allsop 
> <brent.allsop at canonizer.com <mailto:brent.allsop at canonizer.com>> wrote:
>
>
>     Hi Gordon,
>
>     Interesting that you have such a different POV.
>
>     So then given your best guess, what would you say is the most
>     likely value of Bitcion one year from now.  More or less than the
>     predicted 100% increase?  I figure we should be in very much
>     agreement on this, even if we do disagree on the "Moore's law"ness
>     of such predictions? Why is it that everyone misses and ignores
>     the important things people agree on, yet focus on much less
>     important disagreements?
>
>     I also have troubles understanding how you can say that "currency
>     and commodity markets don't work that way".
>
>     It seems to me, the value of Gold is exactly the result of two
>     "moores laws" playing against each other.  Number one, the
>     deemand, which is increasing exponentually, paralelling the growth
>     of humanity and the economy.  And second, the growth of Gold
>     supply has been more or less growing exponentially, for all
>     history, especially when the price gets high like it has been. 
>     There is an old popular adage that an ounce of Gold has always
>     been equal to the value of a good Man's suit.  The only reason
>     this has been true, for centuries, is because of these two mores
>     law like behaviors have been so closely matched.  You'll probably
>     point out that an ounce of Gold can, today, pay for many men's
>     suits.  And I"ll just fire back that the price is way ahead of
>     itself, and precisely why it is dramatically crashing in value,
>     and will continue, likely tell it get's back to the price of a
>     man's suit.  And of course, now, Gold has a Big competitor, so my
>     prediction is that it could even drop further, because of this.
>
>     I will agree with you that fiat currency, controlled by any
>     central resurve, does not behave according to any Moore's law,
>     precisely because the central authority intervenes to keep a
>     fairly constant inflation.  But I don't see how you can think that
>     Bitcion, and it's restricted supply nature, isn't any different
>     than any such fiat currency!?
>
>     It seems to me, you're just focusing on the short term 'commodity'
>     prices and such.   I completely agree with you that there is no
>     "moore's law" with any of that. But I don't care about any of
>     that, and nobody can predict any of that.  What I like to get a
>     hold of, are the long term exponential trends and laws that will
>     always, in the long run, drastically overwhelm all such temporary
>     roller coaster noise.
>
>     Brent
>
>
>     On 6/23/2013 11:04 PM, Gordon wrote:
>>     Brent Allsop <brent.allsop at canonizer.com>
>>     <mailto:brent.allsop at canonizer.com> wrote:
>>
>>     > The new version of the "Canonized Law of the Crypto Coin" camp
>>     > predicting future values of Bitcion just went live.
>>
>>     > http://canonizer.com/topic.asp/154/2
>>
>>     >It's predicting a continued Moore's Law like 100% / year growth...
>>
>>     I have difficulty believing there is anything like a Moore's Law
>>     for Bitcoin. Currency and commodity markets don't work that way,
>>     and I don't see why Bitcoin should be different.
>>
>>     Gordon
>
>     -- 
>     To learn more about the Mormon Transhumanist Association, visit
>     http://transfigurism.org
>     ---
>     You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>     Groups "Mormon Transhumanist Association" group.
>     To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
>     send an email to transfigurism+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com
>     <mailto:transfigurism%2Bunsubscribe at googlegroups.com>.
>     To post to this group, send email to
>     transfigurism at googlegroups.com
>     <mailto:transfigurism at googlegroups.com>.
>     Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/transfigurism.
>     For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
>
>
>
> -- 
> To learn more about the Mormon Transhumanist Association, visit 
> http://transfigurism.org
> ---
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 
> Groups "Mormon Transhumanist Association" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send 
> an email to transfigurism+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to transfigurism at googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/transfigurism.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
>
>

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From sparge at gmail.com  Thu Jul  4 16:42:20 2013
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2013 12:42:20 -0400
Subject: [ExI] patents was RE: simulation as an improvement over reality
In-Reply-To: <001d01cba396$c622ea70$5268bf50$@att.net>
References: <Acujk9kauOMWjNGcQqKNIxuYUoCw0w==>
 <001d01cba396$c622ea70$5268bf50$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2cJoURCAnARWzufdmPvbQaZTQuD7rUc3W2nbGSp5j95WA@mail.gmail.com>

I could have sworn I saw a message here about Doug Englebart's death, but
searching my gmail archives I only found this old message from Spike.
Anyway, wanted to share this article I got via Google+:

http://worrydream.com/Engelbart/

A few words on Doug Engelbart
Bret Victor / July 3, 2013

Doug Engelbart died today. His work has always been very difficult for
writers to interpret and explain.

Technology writers, in particular, tend to miss the point miserably,
because they see everything as a technology problem. Engelbart devoted his
life to a human problem, with technology falling out as part of a solution.
When I read tech writers' interviews with Engelbart, I imagine these
writers interviewing George Orwell, asking in-depth probing questions about
his typewriter.

Here's the most facile interpretation of Engelbart, splendidly exhibited by
this New York Times headline:

Douglas C. Engelbart, Inventor of the Computer Mouse, Dies at 88

This is as if you found the person who invented writing, and credited them
for inventing the pencil. (This analogy may be more apt than any of us are
comfortable with.)

Then there's the shopping list interpretation:

His system, called NLS, showed actual instances of, or precursors to,
hypertext, shared screen collaboration, multiple windows, on-screen video
teleconferencing, and the mouse as an input device.

These are not true statements.

* * *

Engelbart had an intent, a goal, a mission. He stated it clearly and in
depth. He intended to augment human intellect. He intended to boost
collective intelligence and enable knowledge workers to think in powerful
new ways, to collectively solve urgent global problems.

The problem with saying that Engelbart "invented hypertext", or "invented
video conferencing", is that you are attempting to make sense of the past
using references to the present. "Hypertext" is a word that has a
particular meaning for us today. By saying that Engelbart invented
hypertext, you ascribe that meaning to Engelbart's work.

Almost any time you interpret the past as "the present, but cruder", you
end up missing the point. But in the case of Engelbart, you miss the point
in spectacular fashion.

Our hypertext is not the same as Engelbart's hypertext, because it does not
serve the same purpose. Our video conferencing is not the same as
Engelbart's video conferencing, because it does not serve the same purpose.
They may look similar superficially, but they have different meanings. They
are homophones, if you will.

Here's an example.

* * *



Say you bring up his 1968 demo on YouTube and watch a bit. At one point,
the face of a remote collaborator, Bill Paxton, appears on screen, and
Engelbart and Paxton have a conversation.

"Ah!", you say. "That's like Skype!"

Then, Engelbart and Paxton start simultaneously working with the document
on the screen.

"Ah!", you say. "That's like screen sharing!"

No. It is not like screen sharing at all.

If you look closer, you'll notice that there are two individual mouse
cursors. Engelbart and Paxton are each controlling their own cursor.

"Okay," you say, "so they have separate cursors, and when we screen share
today, we have to fight over a single cursor. That's a trivial detail; it's
still basically the same thing."

No. It is not the same thing. At all. It misses the intent of the design,
and for a research system, the intent matters most.

Engelbart's vision, from the beginning, was collaborative. His vision was
people working together in a shared intellectual space. His entire system
was designed around that intent.

>From that perspective, separate cursors weren't a feature so much as a
symptom. It was the only design that could have made any sense. It just
fell out. The collaborators both have to point at information on the
screen, in the same way that they would both point at information on a
chalkboard. Obviously they need their own pointers.

Likewise, for every aspect of Engelbart's system. The entire system was
designed around a clear intent.

Our screen sharing, on the other hand, is a bolted-on hack that doesn't
alter the single-user design of our present computers. Our computers are
fundamentally designed with a single-user assumption through-and-through,
and simply mirroring a display remotely doesn't magically transform them
into collaborative environments.

If you attempt to make sense of Engelbart's design by drawing
correspondences to our present-day systems, you will miss the point,
because our present-day systems do not embody Engelbart's intent. Engelbart
hated our present-day systems.

* * *

If you truly want to understand NLS, you have to forget today. Forget
everything you think you know about computers. Forget that you think you
know what a computer is. Go back to 1962. And then read his intent.

The least important question you can ask about Engelbart is, "What did he
build?" By asking that question, you put yourself in a position to admire
him, to stand in awe of his achievements, to worship him as a hero. But
worship isn't useful to anyone. Not you, not him.

The most important question you can ask about Engelbart is, "What world was
he trying to create?" By asking that question, you put yourself in a
position to create that world yourself.

----

On Fri, Dec 24, 2010 at 1:17 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

>
> ...  I will grant at the same time that the US Patent office seems to have
> severe Alzheimers...spike
>
> Good story for you guys that involves extropians and patents:  a few years
> ago we got an invitation to a party at the home of Doug Englebart, the
> Xerox
> PARC guy who invented the mouse and a bunch of other computer stuff.  So we
> went up there and there were about thirty or so extropian types, the
> cryonics crowd, sci-fi fans, the usual suspects that show up at these sorts
> of events, but no Doug.  So I started asking around, who organized this and
> where's Doug etc, and no one knew so I was scouting around trying to figure
> out why we were having this big party at this guy's house and he isn't even
> home.
>
> I started to suspect it was all bogus.  Perhaps someone knew he would be
> out
> for the evening, rigged a big gag by inviting a bunch of yahoos, then the
> cops show up and we all end up in jail for breaking and entering har har
> and
> so forth.  We were there about a couple hours and still no host or home
> owner, and I was just feeling a bit uneasy about the whole thing and
> started
> to drift towards the door, when up shows Doug, assuring us it was all as
> planned but he had another engagement earlier that evening, couldn't be
> cancelled and yakkity yak and bla bla.  Then he ended up chatting with my
> wife and me for about fifteen minutes right there in his own front entryway
> before even greeting the other guests, then took us on a tour through his
> house, showing us his computer inventions and so forth.
>
> Then he excused himself and went off to bed.  Doug was about 80 at the
> time,
> so his being tired is certainly understandable, but to retire for the
> evening with about thirty geeks in his house was I thought extraordinary.
> To
> let us have a party in his house while he was gone, then leave us as long
> as
> we wanted to stay with no apparent person in charge.  Trusting sort.  {8-]
> And about the nicest guy you ever met.
>
> In any case: he was telling us about how much trouble he had in the late
> 60s
> in patenting the mouse.  The Xerox PARC guys had an earlier version of the
> mouse which had two parallel wheels for which Doug did get a patent, but it
> wasn't a successful design.  There was a better version which he made from
> inverting a trackball, writing the software to reverse the controls and
> arranging the ergonomics to fit the hand.  Sound familiar?  Are you using
> something like that right now?  Or did back in the 80s and 90s?  The
> trademark office refused to give him a patent for that!  They argued that
> it
> was just an upside down trackball with clever software, but they didn't
> award trademarks or patents for software.  {8^D
> Haaaahahahahahaaaaheeeheehehee.  {8-]  That is just too funny.  They
> wouldn't give him a patent for an inverted track ball.  Eventually he
> managed to get some rights to that, which he sold to another one of the
> locals (Steve Jobs) for a song, when the patent for the trackball was still
> active and expensive, which is why most PCs have a mouse instead of a
> trackball to this day.
>
> Doug commented that later someone was awarded a patent for painting
> eyeballs
> and whiskers on a computer mouse to make it look like a mouse.  The patent
> office by that time not only awarded patents for software, but for painting
> a mouse to look like a mouse.  Presumably if someone painted a mouse to
> look
> like a mole or a rat, they could get yet another fresh patent.  Society's
> attitude toward intellectual property has experienced a remarkable
> revolution since Doug was a young inventor.
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Thu Jul  4 17:27:15 2013
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike)
Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2013 10:27:15 -0700
Subject: [ExI] patents was RE: simulation as an improvement over reality
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2cJoURCAnARWzufdmPvbQaZTQuD7rUc3W2nbGSp5j95WA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <Acujk9kauOMWjNGcQqKNIxuYUoCw0w==>
 <001d01cba396$c622ea70$5268bf50$@att.net>
 <CAM5aL2cJoURCAnARWzufdmPvbQaZTQuD7rUc3W2nbGSp5j95WA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00ee01ce78db$bac55ab0$30501010$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Dave Sill
Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2013 9:42 AM
To: ExI chat list
Subject: Re: [ExI] patents was RE: simulation as an improvement over reality

 

>.I could have sworn I saw a message here about Doug Englebart's death, but
searching my gmail archives I only found this old message from Spike.
Anyway, wanted to share this article I got via Google+:

 

http://worrydream.com/Engelbart/

 

A few words on Doug Engelbart

Bret Victor / July 3, 2013

 

>.Doug Engelbart died today. His work has always been very difficult for
writers to interpret and explain.

>.

----

On Fri, Dec 24, 2010 at 1:17 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:


>>...  I will grant at the same time that the US Patent office seems to have
severe Alzheimers...spike

>>.Good story for you guys that involves extropians and patents:  a few
years
ago we got an invitation to a party at the home of Doug Englebart, the Xerox
PARC guy who invented the mouse and a bunch of other computer stuff.
Society's
attitude toward intellectual property has experienced a remarkable
revolution since Doug was a young inventor.  spike

_______________________________________________



Dave, thanks for bringing back fond memories of that party at Doug's house.
I just checked my notes; it happened on 11 December 1999.  There were about
a couple dozen geeks at Doug's house and he wasn't even there.  Everybody
standing around talking technerdery, the guy had about a jillion dollars'
worth of paintings on the wall, and no one I could find even knew who was
hosting the party.  It was BYOB.  All these expensive bottles of wine on the
table and almost no one was drinking much of anything.  Whoever opened the
door had evidently left already, and no one actually knew who had organized
the event.  It was an early example of what would later be refined into the
concept of a flash mob.  

 

When Doug finally did show up at about 10 pm, he talked for a while with my
wife and me, then went on off to bed, with a couple dozen geeks still in his
own home!  No one in charge, no apparent host or center of attention, just a
bunch of technology fans.  Now THAT is an example of spontaneous order from
chaos.

 

spike

 

  

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From painlord2k at libero.it  Thu Jul  4 18:18:51 2013
From: painlord2k at libero.it (Mirco Romanato)
Date: Thu, 04 Jul 2013 20:18:51 +0200
Subject: [ExI] 23andme again
In-Reply-To: <01d601ce77f4$10ab4b30$3201e190$@rainier66.com>
References: <51CB00B9.1010404@libero.it>
 <001f01ce7324$f7c9d6a0$e75d83e0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAOJFdb+Bri3r0wtJ+BY=pZyyUJbOZmxy3PC2W=0q7O+=HwKNcQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <002a01ce7348$0a4c5fa0$1ee51ee0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armggHDoJXnDxVm7WK=FuXSv+fkM0t1gN_CsFgHmOSjPuuA@mail.gmail.com>
 <006d01ce735d$ce8fdad0$6baf9070$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPGs0J_g52uK+hWPkJqrtqYcx_g3gM2+aGG4TSJ69vVSOWBk4w@mail.gmail.com>
 <20130627184859.GK24217@leitl.org>
 <00ac01ce736f$d0fa6d00$72ef4700$@rainier66.com>
 <CAOJFdbLL2DU=vrUERMOG7MhWf=33cecsin3=yDX8FOh+3Wh0dg@mail.gmail.com>
 <003401ce7415$a52b32d0$ef819870$@rainier66.com>
 <008401ce760d$dffbda00$9ff38e00$@rainier66.com> <51D17A6D.9060503@libero.it>
 <CAL_armitd=0WYzvyi=tgN3vmxMpjjmiEQrWHYdJBCcEM_TQG8w@mail.gmail.com>
 <00d801ce7673$4a346f30$de9d4d90$@rainier66.com>
 <018601ce77a2$05fe9220$11fbb660$@rainier66.com>
 <018d01ce77aa$b87c1b90$297452b0$@rainier66.com> <51D3EFCB.7080002@libero.it>
 <01d601ce77f4$10ab4b30$3201e190$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <51D5BC8B.5090500@libero.it>

Il 03/07/2013 15:48, spike ha scritto:

>> ...You could be innocent like Jesus and you would end on the Cross willing
> or not...

> Innocent like Jesus?  Like hell!  Did you forget about this ugly little
> incident:

> 14 And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the
> changers of money sitting:
> 
> 15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of
> the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money,
> and overthrew the tables;
> 
> 16 And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my
> Father's house an house of merchandise... {John Chapter 2}
> 
> How do they figure this guy was sinless?

What part of "make not my Father's house an house of merchandise..." is
obscure?

The merchants were a bunch of squatters squatting in his father's home.
He was dealing with a home invasion is the kindlest way possible.
In fact, the episode do not report any merchant being harmed or
resorting to call the local police (or the guards of the Sinedrium).
In fact, when he was put on trial, in chains, no one charged him with
assault or anything else.

Mirco


From pharos at gmail.com  Thu Jul  4 18:48:12 2013
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2013 19:48:12 +0100
Subject: [ExI] 23andme again
In-Reply-To: <51D5BC8B.5090500@libero.it>
References: <51CB00B9.1010404@libero.it>
 <001f01ce7324$f7c9d6a0$e75d83e0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAOJFdb+Bri3r0wtJ+BY=pZyyUJbOZmxy3PC2W=0q7O+=HwKNcQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <002a01ce7348$0a4c5fa0$1ee51ee0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armggHDoJXnDxVm7WK=FuXSv+fkM0t1gN_CsFgHmOSjPuuA@mail.gmail.com>
 <006d01ce735d$ce8fdad0$6baf9070$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPGs0J_g52uK+hWPkJqrtqYcx_g3gM2+aGG4TSJ69vVSOWBk4w@mail.gmail.com>
 <20130627184859.GK24217@leitl.org>
 <00ac01ce736f$d0fa6d00$72ef4700$@rainier66.com>
 <CAOJFdbLL2DU=vrUERMOG7MhWf=33cecsin3=yDX8FOh+3Wh0dg@mail.gmail.com>
 <003401ce7415$a52b32d0$ef819870$@rainier66.com>
 <008401ce760d$dffbda00$9ff38e00$@rainier66.com>
 <51D17A6D.9060503@libero.it>
 <CAL_armitd=0WYzvyi=tgN3vmxMpjjmiEQrWHYdJBCcEM_TQG8w@mail.gmail.com>
 <00d801ce7673$4a346f30$de9d4d90$@rainier66.com>
 <018601ce77a2$05fe9220$11fbb660$@rainier66.com>
 <018d01ce77aa$b87c1b90$297452b0$@rainier66.com>
 <51D3EFCB.7080002@libero.it>
 <01d601ce77f4$10ab4b30$3201e190$@rainier66.com>
 <51D5BC8B.5090500@libero.it>
Message-ID: <CAL_armgTp3u3gqn2-7U_bDbuS2f4itWVyAjMyH=msAER4J2vyQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jul 4, 2013 at 7:18 PM, Mirco Romanato  wrote:
> The merchants were a bunch of squatters squatting in his father's home.
> He was dealing with a home invasion is the kindlest way possible.
> In fact, the episode do not report any merchant being harmed or
> resorting to call the local police (or the guards of the Sinedrium).
> In fact, when he was put on trial, in chains, no one charged him with
> assault or anything else.
>
>

Heh! :)  Of course the reports don't say anything nasty. They were
written by Jesus' followers many years later to show him in a good
light. These aren't the police evidence documents, you know.   :)


BillK


From natasha at natasha.cc  Thu Jul  4 20:06:19 2013
From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More)
Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2013 13:06:19 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Transhumanists in Seoul Korea
Message-ID: <00b101ce78f1$f29781f0$d7c685d0$@natasha.cc>

 Hi Everyone!

A French writer who is living in Seoul wants to meet up with transhumanists
in Korea to interview for his new book.  His first book is on the post-human
future.   

Please let us know if you have any contacts for this hopeful writer. 

Thank you,

Natasha

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From tech101 at gmail.com  Thu Jul  4 22:13:43 2013
From: tech101 at gmail.com (Adam A. Ford)
Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2013 08:13:43 +1000
Subject: [ExI] Transhumanists in Seoul Korea
In-Reply-To: <00b101ce78f1$f29781f0$d7c685d0$@natasha.cc>
References: <00b101ce78f1$f29781f0$d7c685d0$@natasha.cc>
Message-ID: <CABG8Bmx-JwC=Q4VkukmuRvs5UzbP89XsiYzzbmcBu=af7mAvRw@mail.gmail.com>

I believe Sebastian Seung is Korean : http://hebb.mit.edu/people/seung/
Though I doubt he is in Korea at the moment.  Sebastian may know of other
transhumanists in Korea.

It would be great if a chapter could be started in Korea.

Kind regards,

Adam A. Ford
Director - Humanity+ Global, Director - Humanity+ Australia, Chair - Humanity+
@ Melbourne Summit
 Chair - Singularity Summit Australia
Director - Future Day

Mob: +61 421 979 977 | Email:  tech101 at gmail.com
<http://summit.singinst.org.au>

*Future Day <http://futureday.org> - "Join the conversation on Future Day
March 1st to explore the possibilities about how the future is transforming
us. You can celebrate Future Day however you like, the ball is in your
court ? feel free to send a photo of your Future Day gatherings to
info at futureday.org, and your jubilation may wind up being commemorated on
the Future Day website and the Facebook
page!<http://www.facebook.com/pages/Future-Day/237779372974327>
"*

Humanity+ <http://humanityplus.org> | Humanity+
Australia<http://hplusconf.com.au>| Singularity
Summit Australia <http://singularitysummit.com.au> |
Facebook<http://www.facebook.com/pages/The-Singularity-Summit-Australia/136972026316342?v=app_2344061033>|
Twitter <http://twitter.com/singsum_au> |
YouTube<http://youtube.com/TheRationalFuture>| Future
Day <http://FutureDay.org>

"A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move
toward higher levels." ("Atomic Education Urged by Albert Einstein", New
York Times, 25 May 1946)

Please consider the environment before printing this email
<http://hplusconf.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/H+logo_mauve_embossed_dropshadow_trans.png>


On Fri, Jul 5, 2013 at 6:06 AM, Natasha Vita-More <natasha at natasha.cc>wrote:

>  Hi Everyone!****
>
> A French writer who is living in Seoul wants to meet up with
> transhumanists in Korea to interview for his new book.  His first book is
> on the post-human future.   ****
>
> Please let us know if you have any contacts for this hopeful writer. ****
>
> Thank you,****
>
> Natasha****
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From natasha at natasha.cc  Thu Jul  4 23:54:20 2013
From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More)
Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2013 16:54:20 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Transhumanists in Seoul Korea
In-Reply-To: <CABG8Bmx-JwC=Q4VkukmuRvs5UzbP89XsiYzzbmcBu=af7mAvRw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <00b101ce78f1$f29781f0$d7c685d0$@natasha.cc>
 <CABG8Bmx-JwC=Q4VkukmuRvs5UzbP89XsiYzzbmcBu=af7mAvRw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00e001ce7911$cd769a30$6863ce90$@natasha.cc>

Thanks,  I'll let him know.

 

Cheers -

Natasha

 

 <http://www.natasha.cc/> Natasha Vita-More, PhD

NEW Book: Co-Editor: The Transhumanist Reader: Contemporary and Classical
Essays on the
Science, Technology, and Philosophy of the Human Future (Wiley-Blackwell
Pub.)
<http://www.amazon.com/Transhumanist-Reader-Contemporary-Technology-Philosop
hy/dp/1118334310/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1363616965&sr=1-1&keywords=t
he+transhumanist+reader> Available at Amazon!

Final Cover Design_email

Adjunct Professor, University of Advancing Technology

Chairman,  <http://www.humanityplus.org/> Humanity+



 

From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Adam A. Ford
Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2013 3:14 PM
To: hplusmembers at yahoogroups.com; ExI chat list
Cc: singularity at listbox.com
Subject: Re: [ExI] Transhumanists in Seoul Korea

 

I believe Sebastian Seung is Korean : http://hebb.mit.edu/people/seung/

Though I doubt he is in Korea at the moment.  Sebastian may know of other
transhumanists in Korea.

It would be great if a chapter could be started in Korea.




Kind regards,

Adam A. Ford
Director - Humanity+ Global, Director - Humanity+ Australia, Chair -
Humanity+ @ Melbourne Summit

Chair - Singularity Summit Australia
Director - Future Day

Mob: +61 421 979 977 | Email:  tech101 at gmail.com 

 <http://futureday.org> Future Day - "Join the conversation on Future Day
March 1st to explore the possibilities about how the future is transforming
us. You can celebrate Future Day however you like, the ball is in your court
- feel free to send a photo of your Future Day gatherings to
info at futureday.org, and your jubilation may wind up being commemorated on
the Future Day website and the Facebook page!
<http://www.facebook.com/pages/Future-Day/237779372974327> "

Humanity+ <http://humanityplus.org>  | Humanity+ Australia
<http://hplusconf.com.au>  |  <http://singularitysummit.com.au> Singularity
Summit Australia |
<http://www.facebook.com/pages/The-Singularity-Summit-Australia/136972026316
342?v=app_2344061033> Facebook |  <http://twitter.com/singsum_au> Twitter |
YouTube <http://youtube.com/TheRationalFuture>  | Future Day
<http://FutureDay.org> 


"A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move
toward higher levels." ("Atomic Education Urged by Albert Einstein", New
York Times, 25 May 1946)
 
Please consider the environment before printing this email

 

On Fri, Jul 5, 2013 at 6:06 AM, Natasha Vita-More <natasha at natasha.cc>
wrote:

 Hi Everyone!

A French writer who is living in Seoul wants to meet up with transhumanists
in Korea to interview for his new book.  His first book is on the post-human
future.   

Please let us know if you have any contacts for this hopeful writer. 

Thank you,

Natasha


_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

 

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From eugen at leitl.org  Fri Jul  5 06:52:57 2013
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2013 08:52:57 +0200
Subject: [ExI] inside the immortality business
Message-ID: <20130705065257.GN24217@leitl.org>


http://www.buzzfeed.com/joshdean/are-we-warming-up-to-cryonics

Inside The Immortality Business

Thanks to a small but devoted core of true believers and an infusion of
Silicon Valley research funds, the once-revered, much-reviled science of
cryopreservation may itself be coming back from the dead. Welcome to Alcor,
where death is merely a temporary setback.  posted on June 6, 2013 at 11:20pm
EDT

Josh Dean

?In practice, before long the objectors will include only a handful of
eccentrics.? 

? Robert Ettinger, author, The Prospect of Immortality, forefather of modern
cryonics, in 1965

?I have some nuanced feelings about death. In general I think that death is
obviously not a good thing.? ? Ken Hayworth, cognitive neuroscientist,
reluctant cryonicist, 2012


I. Mail the Check Before You Die

Some things should not be left to the last minute. For instance, having
yourself frozen. The act of being preserved in a giant thermos cooled by
liquid nitrogen in the hopes that the scientists of the future will figure
out how to revive you and repair whatever it was that drove you to require
freezing in the first place is no small matter. There are insurance policies
to settle upon. Legal documents to notarize. Relatives to appease. And all of
this must be done far enough in advance that arrangements can be made for a
field response team to reach you on your deathbed and stand by until a doctor
declares you medically deceased, at which time they will leap into action and
begin your cryopreservation.

Legally speaking, cryonics is okay because it?s considered an extravagant
funeral practice. Its few practitioners would not argue with the notion that
the procedure would be more effective if started before the heart has taken
its final beats, but to do so would be illegal, even if the
soon-to-be-deceased is a willing participant. Thus, the process waits for
death, and the longer after death it begins, the worse off you are. This is
why the Alcor Life Extension Foundation really doesn?t like to accept
last-minute cases. And, yet, shit happens.

The weekly tour at Alcor?s Scottsdale, Arizona headquarters is Tuesday at
10am, and I arrived early, hoping to beat whatever crowd might turn up. But
there was no one waiting outside the single-story building, sand-colored like
everything in Arizona, and located in an office park just outside the
perimeter fence of the Scottsdale airport, where the moguls of greater
Phoenix park their Lear jets. There didn?t even appear to be anyone inside,
and it took two dings of the electronic doorbell before a harried-seeming
woman unlocked the door and eyed me suspiciously.

?The tour has been canceled,? she said. ?I?m sorry, but we?ve got an
emergency last-minute patient situation.?

Specifically, she was referring to the imminent but complicated arrival of a
new ?patient? ? the body of a 90-year-old retired nightclub owner from Las
Vegas who had verbally agreed to be cryopreserved several years before, but
never completed his paperwork. It wasn?t until the man?s representatives
called in a panic over the weekend to say he was on the verge of his final
exit that he 100 percent committed, but before Alcor could go and retrieve
his body, it had to wait for a bank transfer from the man?s estate. On a
personal level, we tend to keep death distant, to make it almost theoretical,
until suddenly it is the realest thing you will ever experience, and then ?
as people like to say ? you come to Jesus. Or, if you?re one of a tiny group
of optimistic contrarians, you come to cryonics.

Despite being the largest and most stable of the two operational cryonics
facilities in America (the Cryonics Society, outside Detroit, being the
other), Alcor has to date frozen fewer than 150 people. The current
membership of future frozen persons stands at just over 1,000 people, many of
whom are still young and virile, so it is quite infrequent that a
cryopreservation actually happens.

?Sometimes months go by,? explained D?Bora Tennant, the company?s office
manager and de facto PR/marketing person, and the woman who?d answered the
door. ?Sometimes we get a couple a month.? She showed me to a seat in the
lobby, on a gray suede couch. Behind the couch was a brushed metal partition
embossed with Alcor?s logo, and the blue walls of the room were decorated
with framed portraits of current inhabitants of the facility?s cold storage.
Some had names, and were pictured in happier, still-alive moments, while
others were stone-faced portraits with no identification. (It is a member?s
choice whether or not to be publicly identified.) There were noticeably more
men than women. Other d?cor included a Japanese screen, a tropical plant with
waxy leaves, and a mod coffee table in the shape of a squiggle; the overall
theme was modern, with a mid-90s, Z Gallerie vibe, and the blue and brushed
metal color scheme felt appropriately chilly.

?We can?t dispatch the team until the money comes through,? Tennant said.

Image by Alcor

Alcor president Max More

?It?s the last thing we?re waiting for,? said Max More, Alcor?s president,
emerging from a back office. ?This is a wealthy guy. He could afford it. But
he didn?t want to pay his dues,? he said, his tone smoothed by a tidy British
accent. More offered a firm hand that, like the rest of him (save his red
hair and goatee) was the color of alabaster. He wore a snug, v-neck t-shirt
that showed off an obvious lack of body fat; the hems of its sleeves had his
biceps in a vice grip. As president, More must consider the collective first
and foremost, and despite its preeminence in the field, Alcor?s finances
aren?t so flush that they can afford to take charity cases, or to expend
resources prematurely.

Members pay annual dues while living, plus a single payout upon death,
typically covered by insurance, if the member has made Alcor the beneficiary
of his life insurance policy. More is certain that Alcor underpriced its
services in the early days, and that even today?s price of $200,000 for a
full-body preservation is too low. (The $80,000 fee for head-only, or
?neuro,? he thinks, is about right. And why this is actually a popular option
will be discussed a bit later.) That money, after all, covers suspension for
however long it takes, plus revival, once somebody figures out how to make
that happen. In the movement?s infancy, patient care was covered by sporadic
payments from relatives, and this resulted in shaky finances that ultimately
begat disasters (that shall be revealed shortly). Alcor, however, is set up
to endure generations, and it takes great effort to be transparent. Funds
delivered at a member?s death are put into a Patient Care Trust Fund, and the
investment income from this fund is used to support the costs of storage and
care. As of 2012, the Fund contained more than $8 million.

Provided the erstwhile nightclub owner?s check cleared soon, Alcor?s field
team ? led by Medical Response Director Aaron Drake, who I?d seen in the
parking lot ferrying hard plastic cases filled with equipment to his truck ?
could run to the airport and hop a plane for Vegas. But Alcor was racing the
clock.

There is no clear consensus as to how long after a person is declared dead
that it becomes basically pointless to perform a cryopreservation ? certain
things, like injecting the blood thinner heparin to prevent blood clots, and
getting a body on ice immediately, can stem decay and buy you some time ? but
More said that Alcor has basically settled on 24 hours as being the window of
opportunity. Every single case is different, but once a full day passes, it?s
likely futile to perfuse a body with chemicals, and to freeze a person who
hasn?t been perfused guarantees the cells will be attacked from the inside by
ice crystals, an evil inevitability of freezing.

The timeframe isn?t absolute, however. Each member dictates the limits of his
preservation. In rare cases, people choose to have their bodies frozen ?under
any conditions possible? according to More (and on at least one occasion, a
body was buried in the ground, then the remains later dug up and frozen), but
the typical member wants to know that he will be reached in enough time that
his body has not begun to deteriorate and still looks more post-human than
revivified zombie.

Even if everything went right from here, and Drake had no delays en route to
Vegas, it was going to be close. More had spent the weekend preparing for the
patient?s arrival, but there are only so many parts of the process he can
control. Bureaucracy, and especially banking, rushes for no one. So while a
man?s corpse was slowly consuming itself in a Las Vegas mortuary, More waited
for a bank clerk to punch in fax numbers. ?This is why you really don?t want
to leave it to last minute,? he said, with a forceful exhale.

We humans have gone to space and cloned numerous species, not to mention
invented the Internet, transplanted organs, and successfully installed bionic
limbs, but if you were to rank our boldest experiments from least to most
hubristic, cryonics would surely rank near the top. Because what it aims to
do is to disrupt the one preordained outcome we all share and cannot escape.
Life is a 50- or 70- or (if you?ve got good genes and eat enough kale)
90-year menu of choices, every one of them redirecting your path on the map.
Until you reach the end, at which point there is absolutely no choice. That?s
how it?s been for as long as there have been living organisms, and it?s how
it will be until the world melts down. Unless, that is, you are the kind of
person who might become a cryonaut.

II. The Second Worst Thing That Can Happen To You

At one end of Alcor?s conference room is a picture window of the kind you see
in police interrogation rooms. It?s typically covered with a metal screen,
but Mike Perry, the company?s Patient Care Director, pushed a cartoonishly
large red button and it raised to reveal the cold storage room, which if
you?ve been on a brewery tour, basically looks like that. On the far wall is
a row of towering silver canisters containing four patients each
(claustrophobia is not a concern of the cryopreserved) ? plus another eight
or 10 frozen heads, which are stored in crock-pot-sized cans and stacked in
the canister?s center channel. Each capsule, Perry explained, is cooled to
320 degrees below zero Fahrenheit using liquid nitrogen and requires no
electricity. Canisters operate on the same basic principle as a thermos
bottle; they are double-walled with a vacuum-sealed space between the two
walls and are known as dewars, for the concept?s Scottish inventor, James
Dewar. The chamber itself is filled with liquid nitrogen and is replenished
weekly from a huge storage container, though in truth, Perry noted, that?s
overkill. A test canister once went eight months before all of the nitrogen
finally boiled off, so there?s little reason to worry about your frozen loved
ones thawing should the nightwatchman fall asleep on the job.

Image by Alcor

This ?Bigfoot? Dewar is custom-designed to contain four whole bodies and five
heads immersed in liquid nitrogen at -196 degrees Celsius.

Perry, who is gaunt, wispy-haired, and hunchbacked (a condition he hopes will
be fixed when he?s revived down the road), drew my attention to another unit,
horizontal and obviously much older, on the floor just on the far side of the
glass. This container once held Dr. James Bedford who, in 1967, became the
world?s first-ever cryonaut, as the fervent press at the time dubbed him.
Perry said that security reasons prevented him from identifying precisely
which of the new capsules now contained Bedford, or for that matter the
baseball legend Ted Williams, who is the most famous ex-person publicly known
to be in Alcor?s care. (Walt Disney, contrary to urban legend, was never
frozen. Neither was Timothy Leary, who was once an Alcor member, but later
canceled.)

Cryonics as a concept has existed in science-fiction for more than a century,
but it traces its real-world origins to the 1964 publication of The Prospect
of Immortality. That book, written by a physics and math professor from
Atlantic City named Robert Ettinger, opened with a bold proclamation: ?Most
of us now living have a chance for personal, physical immortality.? Ettinger
went on to lay out, in a very specific and carefully constructed scientific
argument, why humans should immediately begin to consider this plausible
alternative. He wrote: ?The fact: At very low temperatures it is possible,
right now, to preserve dead people with essentially no deterioration,
indefinitely.? Ettinger called this ?suspended death? and the overall
movement he hoped would grow up to support it ?the freezer program,? an
ominous phrase that didn?t stick for obvious reasons. (In a later book, he
called it being ?preserved indefinitely in not-very-dead condition,? which is
so hilariously stiff as to sound bureaucratic.)

Robert Ettinger

The book is an interesting read, even 50 years later. Ettinger is fanboy
first, and for all the careful analysis of why cryonics should work, there?s
also plenty of enthusiastic and ? especially in hindsight ? amusing argument
about the inevitability of the freezer program and the utopian world that
will blossom in its wake. He envisions personal robots, overflow housing for
the legions of revived people underground and on the moon, and suggests that
we should consider including services for dolphins, since they appear capable
of human-level communication.

One of the people most excited by Ettinger?s ideas was Robert F. Nelson, an
electronics repairman from California whose zeal landed him the job of the
first-ever president of the Cryonics Society of California. And it was in
that capacity ? as the evangelizing voice of this nascent death alternative ?
that he received the most important phone call in the history of cryonics
from a funeral home director: A psychologist named Dr. James Bedford was
dying of cancer, and he?d ordered his son Norman to find a way to have him
frozen.

Image by Henry Groskinsky//Time Life Pictures / Getty Images

The first cryonaut: Steel & aluminum cryo-capsule containing mylar-wrapped
body, designed by wigmaker Edward Hope to store frozen body of James Bedford,
re experimental cryonics.

Despite the fact that a cryopreservation had never been attempted ? and that
equipment to do such a thing didn?t even exist, and had to be improvised ?
Nelson worked with two sympathetic physicians and froze Bedford as best he
could, on January 12, 1967. (And that date is still celebrated annually by
some members of the cryonics community as ?Bedford Day?.)

Nelson was an immediate celebrity, and the story of Bedford?s preservation
was slated for the cover of Life Magazine ? until the Apollo 1 capsule caught
fire on the launch pad, causing the death of three astronauts. (It appeared
in a much smaller, limited run instead.) Nelson published the unabridged
story himself, a year later, in a book titled We Froze the First Man, and it
seemed briefly as if this was a movement that would take off. That was until
Nelson attempted to preserve and store a number of additional patients
(including a nine-year-old Canadian girl who?d died of cancer) over the
ensuing years. He used capsules welded by a wig factory owner in Arizona, and
paid for liquid nitrogen with sporadic donations, some modest bequests, and a
loan co-signed by his frustrated wife, who ultimately divorced him.

Foremost among Nelson?s struggles was that the capsules kept breaking and he
ran out of money to repair them. Finally, he went broke, and the bodies were
left to thaw and rot in an Orange County mausoleum. This event was dubbed
?the Chatsworth Incident? for the town in which it took place, and it
basically destroyed any good faith the public had in cryonics, which many
people considered unsettling to begin with. (Later this year, a film about
Chatsworth will arrive in theaters; directed by Errol Morris and inspired by
a popular This American Life segment, Freezing People Is Easy stars Paul
Rudd, Kristin Wiig, Owen Wilson, and Christopher Walken, and is unlikely to
improve cryonics? long tarnished rep.)

Image by J. R. Eyerman//Time Life Pictures / Getty Images

Robert F. Nelson & Dr. Dante Brunol, demonstrating the freezing process.

Of all the corpses, Bedford is the only one that endured. And though his
preservation was far from ideal, it was done within hours of his death, and
despite a three-decade adventure that is equal parts Keystone Kops and
Weekend at Bernie?s ? for many years, his capsule was kept in a rented
storage locker, and his son or wife would stay home for days on end waiting
for intransigent, price-gouging liquid nitrogen suppliers to show up and
refill the tanks ? his body has remained frozen ever since.

Mike Perry was present when Alcor, which took possession of Bedford?s body in
1991, moved the first cryonaut into his current canister, and got a good look
at his remains. ?We thought he looked wonderful because he hasn?t
decomposed,? Perry told me. ?His eyes are open but the corneas are totally
frosted so his eyes are pure white. You could see his teeth. He?s not
smiling, and you might say he kind of looks like a fresh accident victim. ?
That said, there wasn?t any way to take a closer look. Alcor?s workers put
Bedford?s body into a more modern vessel and hooked up the dry ice. He?s been
in the house ever since.

Perry says that he is ?generally optimistic? about the prospects of reviving
Bedford someday, despite the many travails of his afterlife, and the fact
that he was frozen long before proper cryoprotectants were available. Even a
?straight freeze,? as they call it, is ?probably better than doing nothing,?
he said. He likes to think of the problems that face future reanimations as
being similar to those presented by archeology. Sometimes you hack away the
jungle and there?s Machu Picchu, ready to re-inhabit; other times, you get
only a pile of rocks and some shattered pots. ?You find fragments and shards
and all kinds of stuff, and over a period of time you fit every broken brick
back together,? he explained. ?It?s actually kind of hard to erase
information.?

What Perry is talking about is beyond science-fiction at this point, of
course. And this simple fact ? that his employer and the few others like it
are asking for a down payment on something so speculative ? is really the
crux of most opposition to cryonics in the scientific establishment. Certain
events, such as Chatsworth Incident and a 1987 mess in which Alcor refused to
hand over the frozen head of one client to a coroner, resulting in a SWAT
team raid and temporary confiscation of the cryopreservation equipment,
gut-punched cryonics in public.

Freeze frames: Cryonics in pop culture, clockwise from top left, Sleeper, The
Empire Strikes Back, Golden Girls, Prometheus, Futurama, Austin Powers,
Demolition Man

As a result, this has mostly been prevalent in the collective consciousness
as a gag: Sleeper, Futurama, Austin Powers. But the real damage has always
been the cold shoulder from science, even (or especially) from the more
mainstream cryobiologists, who practice the low-temperature science of living
things. They worried that association with cryonics would hamper funding in
more legitimate experiments, and in 1982, the Society for Cryobiology issued
a statement banning from membership those ?misrepresenting the science of
cryobiology, including any practice or application of freezing deceased
persons in anticipation of their reanimation.?

The cold, hard truth of cryonics is that only a little real progress has been
made in the 50 years since Bedford was chilled with ice cubes and wrapped in
a space blanket. The most important advance for the field, without question,
came in the late 1990s, when the Los Angeles-based cryobiology research firm
21st Century Medicine developed a proprietary cryoprotectant that is infused
through the bloodstream to replace water in a body?s cells, eliminating what
was long known to be a major problem of cryonics: ice crystal formation.
(Upon freezing, the water in a body?s cells expands, destroying cell walls
and tissue.) This process is called vitrification because what it does,
essentially, is turn tissue into glass. Cryoprotectants, however, may damage
the cells in other ways, and they only work as long as the blood hasn?t
clotted. If there?s been some kind of brain injury, or the blood-brain
barrier has closed, it may not be impossible for technicians to infuse the
entire brain. At that point, it?s fair to wonder what you?re even preserving.

This was Alcor President Max More?s concern with the patient from Las Vegas,
and by the time he drove me to lunch at a nearby sandwich shop, the man had
been medically deceased for 17 hours. Once the perfusion window has closed,
the only thing Alcor can do is a straight freeze, which is ?very
undesirable,? More said, because it ensures that there will be substantial
cellular damage from the ice crystals. What?s ultimately thawed will be,
crudely speaking, mush.

The whole thing, I suggested, feels like a leap of faith.

?I never use the word faith because I?m a strong rationalist, but it?s based
on an assumption that technology continues to advance and our current theory
on death is simply wrong,? More replied. What Alcor offers, he said, ?is an
extension of medical technology.? Cryonicists assert that the definition of
death, which seems fairly clear, actually isn?t; it has changed over time.
?Fifty years ago, if you keeled over here in the restaurant and your heart
stopped beating, people would have said, ?He?s dead.? Today, medics would
start pumping away on your chest, defibrillate your heart, and you?d start up
again. But you were dead by the standards of 50 years ago.?

Cryonics takes this a step farther, continuing to challenge the idea of what
it means to ?die.? When someone is clinically dead today, all it really means
is that today?s doctors, using today?s technology, can?t do anymore for that
particular person. But, More suggested, ?All of your cells are basically
alive. They?re just not functioning. We say that, rather than incinerate or
bury you, we should stop you from getting worse. That?s what we?re doing.
We?re trying to stop that decay.?

More likes to use a line that serves as both a motto and a joke for the
community he leads. He knows that what he?s advocating remains unproven, and
is easily dismissed. Being frozen, he says, is the second worst thing that
can happen to you. But it?s certainly better than the first.

III. Back From the Dead

Max More isn?t alone. A devoted core of evangelists has continued to maintain
that what Ettinger first promised wasn?t all that crazy and could ? someday,
given enough time and money ? be possible. And over time, the taint has begun
to fade, ever so slightly, as science begins to make real progress in areas
that for so long seemed impossible: cloning, gene therapy, nanotechnology,
regenerative medicine. As Alcor member Mark Voelker, a 56-year-old
semi-retired optical scientist and engineer from Southern California, told me
when I asked what gave him hope: ?Stem cells are frozen with liquid nitrogen.
The idea that if you freeze something it kills it, that?s not true.?

And even that tiniest blip of promise provides hope, especially to a certain
kind of person ? the one who can?t fathom that the fantastic ride of life has
to end. ?It?s an insurance policy,? American Idol and The X Factor kingpin
Simon Cowell told GQ in 2011. ?If it doesn?t work, it doesn?t work. If it
does work, I?ll be happy. If it?s possible, and I think it will be, why not
have a second crack? I have a feeling that if I don?t do it now,? he said of
the procedure, ?I could regret this in 300 years? time.?

Larry King has muttered about the subject for years, and the imminent arrival
of his ninth decade seems to have solidified his exit plan. The erstwhile
talk show host, now 79, announced last year on his CNN Special, Larry King:
Dinner With King, that he won?t be going gently into that good night. ?I
wanna be frozen, on the hope that they?ll find whatever I died of and they?ll
bring me back,? he said. King later discussed the topic with Family Guy
creator Seth McFarlane, who indicated that he has similar designs on
immortality.

The richest vein of professed cryonicists is, not surprisingly, in the world
of technology. Though most of Alcor?s members remain anonymous, its
public-facing members include prolific inventor and Singularity cleric Ray
Kurzweil; nanotechnology pioneer Ralph Merkle; and Marvin Minsky, co-founder
of MIT?s artificial intelligence laboratory.

If ever a group is going to coalescence behind the idea of obviating death as
we know it, it?s the one currently ruling Silicon Valley, which came of age
at a time when it really felt like the right combination of smart people and
money could solve any problem. And the most intriguing name to sniff around
cryonics publicly is Peter Thiel, the billionaire investor who co-founded
eBay and was the first outside investor in Facebook. Thiel, who has made no
secret of his belief in experimental science, and of his interest in
technologies that could suspend or eliminate aging, has a separate fund set
up to invest in more outr? scientific endeavors. And Breakout Labs, as it?s
known, has provided seed capital to two cryonics-related start-ups founded by
former Alcor employees.

Thiel (who declined an interview request) was also part of the conversation
that laid the groundwork for a cryonics X-Prize that is currently in
development. The prize, as constructed, would challenge applicants to freeze
and then thaw a human organ so that it returns to a viable state. This would
enable organ banks, potentially solving a huge global problem ? the shortage
of organs for transplant ? and would be the first proof-of-concept that
large, complex collections of tissue could be stored indefinitely at low
temperatures without damage. It?s not a huge leap from there to imagine the
same thing being done with a whole organism.

?We?re always looking for ideas at the bleeding edge,? says X-Prize
Foundation President Eileen Bartholomew, whose big-idea-chasing boss, X-Prize
founder Peter Diamandis, started the conversation with Thiel. ?Especially
fields where other incentives ? like angel funding, venture capital, or
government grants ? are not available or working.? Though the project is
still awaiting an official sponsor before it can launch, Bartholomew is
optimistic that?ll happen. ?I think it?s an amazing prize that could change
the way people think about their bodies and organs and fragility. The entire
industry of cryonics has suffered from fanaticism. People have overlooked the
opportunity to create just-in-time access to things like organs.? And she
thinks something like an X-Prize could be exactly what the field needs to
rebuild some of its tattered reputation, not to mention draw a heretofore
unreachable influx of money and talent. ?To be able to freeze an organ and
then reconstitute it ? that has an element of awe that is lacking in the
field.?

Bartholomew says that a more complex prize was discussed, in which
participants would be asked to freeze and thaw an entire organism
(specifically, a mouse, and they ?lovingly? called this the ?Mouse-icle?
concept), but that the sweet spot for an X-Prize is to find the precise
midpoint of ?audacity and achievability.? Part of what the Foundation sets
out to do, she explains, is to ?knock over the first domino,? to overcome the
forces of opposition in the marketplace, and once the proof of concept has
been shown with an organ, there?s every reason to think a race to even bigger
things would naturally just begin.

It?s possible, though, that the most promising future for cryonics lies in
Russia, where Danila Medvedev, the founder of KrioRus, has studied the
mistakes made by his Western counterparts. ?We have managed a very
time-consuming public relations campaign in Russia to do what American
cryonicists failed to do ? make cryonics respectable and an accepted part of
life,? Medvedev explained, by email. ?There is a lot of support for what we
do and we are confident that Russia is the rising star of cryonics.?

As far back as 2005, Medvedev invited a crew from a national TV network to
film a cryopreservation in St. Petersburg, and when that patient was placed
in liquid nitrogen at KrioRus? newly opened facility a year later, one of the
country?s largest newspapers put the story on its front page. What?s more, he
says, Russia is the only country in the world where the state television
channel has a government-sponsored talk show that discusses all the different
angles of life extension. ?Cryonics is seen as a natural part of this
technological spectrum and a continuation of the attempt to extend life.?

Medvedev asserts that there is no public opposition, and that this has a
trickle-down effect on everything from seed capital to government relations.
Perhaps the most substantive result of the efforts of Russia?s fledgling
cryonics community is that legislation is currently in the works to separate
cryonics from funeral practices, to give it its own clear legal standing. If
the law is passed, Russia would become the first country to explicitly
legalize cryonics. ?This will make it possible to do cryonics in cooperation
with the hospitals, at their premises, using their equipment and personnel,?
Medvedev told me. ?This will cause costs to drop and at the same time
dramatically improve the quality.?

The fact that there?s any momentum, let alone some actual research activity,
has many current Alcor members more excited than they?ve been in a long time.
Mark Voelker, who?s been signed up with Alcor for 25 years, thinks that a
boom in areas like lab-grown organs should allow future humans to receive a
la carte organs and tissues ?and eventually whole new bodies? for those who
choose to put themselves in the deep freeze. All of that work, he said, is
being done already for reasons that have nothing to do with cryonics. And
that work will continue and progress. ?I see no reason why it won?t reach its
ultimate destination of being able to create new young healthy bodies for
anyone who needs it.? Isn?t that a radical idea to even consider? ?It?s as
radical as the idea of heart transplants were back in the ?60s, but that kind
of stuff becomes routine after a few decades. So I?m just trying to think
ahead.?

Image by Tim E White/Rex / Rex USA

Age ain?t nothin? but a number: Aubrey de Grey, radical life-extension
scientist.


IV. If We Can Grow a Bladder, Why Can?t We Grow a Body?

Aubrey de Grey is one of the world?s loudest advocates for ?defeating aging,?
as he likes to call it. A 50-year-old Brit whose appearance is positively
Methuselan ? he has a horse?s tail of graying hair and a matching beard that
he could easily tuck into his pants ? de Grey likes to say that the world is
in a ?pro-aging? trance and that, once science finally wakes up to the
reality that aging can be thought of as a curable disease, we can focus some
of our global brainpower into creating life-spans that run for hundreds if
not thousands of years. ?Why cure aging?? he asked, at the beginning of a TED
talk. ?Because it kills people!?

De Grey, who has an appointment at Oxford, spends much of his time at the
California headquarters of his SENS (Strategies for Engineered Negligible
Senescence), Foundation, which he created to be a home for research into
radical life-extension science. He is optimistic that we?ll make enough aging
breakthroughs in his lifetime ? in fact, he thinks the first 1,000-year-old
has probably already been born ? but as a hedge for his own mortality, he
joined Alcor, and serves on the company?s scientific advisory board.

De Grey has been a member for about 10 years, since Alcor invited him to
speak at a cryonics conference. ?I was immediately persuaded that the idea
[of cryonics] had advanced far enough ? that it was a viable proposition,? he
told me. ?People had a respectable chance of being revivable in the future
with medicine that was a natural extension of what I was working on.? He
views cryonics as an insurance policy, in case a cure for aging takes longer
than he anticipates it should. 

The good news about cryonics, he says, is that the first major breakthrough
has already occurred. Vitrification, unfortunately, has its own flaw ? during
rapid cooling, tiny cracks form in the glass, and these cracks are also
destroying tissue ? but de Grey sees this as ?a much lesser problem.?

In fact, he thinks that the Chief Operating Officer of SENS is very close to
solving it. Tanya Jones has worked on and off in cryonics for 22 years,
including several stints at Alcor, mostly recently as president. Today, from
a Bay Area laboratory, she works on anti-aging projects with SENS, and
increasingly with Arigos Biomedical, a company she started with the goal of
refining vitrification. This will obviously benefit anyone who chooses to be
frozen, but the more immediate and important result is it that it could allow
for something far less weird-seeming than freezing entire human bodies:
reversible long-term storage of organs for transplants, exactly the challenge
X-Prize hopes to put forth.

What got Jones moving in the right direction was the fact that small
organisms, such as embryos and stem cells ? anything smaller than three cubic
centimeters, basically ? can be frozen in liquid nitrogen and thawed with no
damage. But anything bigger gets fractures. No one is sure why this is.

Jones thinks she?s found a way around the problem of vitrification, and if
the solution she?s currently at work on is successful, it?s not just
important for cryonics; it?s important for the larger field of cryobiology,
because if larger, more complex bundles of cells can be frozen, it would
enable organ banking. Taking this a step further, Jones cites the emerging
field of tissue engineering, in particular the lab-grown organ project
ongoing at Wake Forest?s Institute for Regenerative Medicine ? where a team
led by Anthony Atala has grown, from human cells, bladders viable enough to
implant in ailing children. The combined forces of lab-grown organs, and a
stable, long-term storage solution would completely revolutionize medicine.
Instead of the agonizing deaths of patients waiting for donor organs, we?d
have organs on demand, in frozen banks, as accessible as stents or pills.

Arigos is one of the projects backed by Peter Thiel?s Breakout Labs, and
Jones is thankful that at least one investor is willing to take risks on
science that she sees as unduly marginalized. ?Cryonics research has lagged,?
she says. ?It?s kind of sad how little effort has been going into it in
recent years.? Jones attributes some of that to the stigma, but it?s also due
to a lack of technological progress, which of course is a cryonics Catch-22.
?Procedures haven?t improved dramatically enough to inspire people to sign
up.?

Though Jones is an Alcor member, and will someday be frozen, she sees whole
body preservation having a far more immediate and useful purpose: short-term
clinical freezing. ?In an ideal world, this will be common medical practice ?
for any illness that cannot be immediately treated to restore people to full
health.? Using cryonics, doctors could put sick patients into a ?sort of a
medically induced ultra-cold coma? that could last only a few weeks, or
several months, or even years ? however long it takes to find a cure.
(Ettinger envisioned this short-time cryo state as well, albeit in a slightly
more comical iteration: ?Some of us might feel a little queasy at the notion,
so to speak, of a zombie climbing the cellar steps every few years, with the
frost in his beard, to cast a fish eye on the family and perhaps vote his
shares at the election of directors of an important corporation. But one
grows accustomed to everything.?)

Which isn?t to say that Jones is unconcerned with the other benefits cryonics
could bring. ?I?m passionate about surviving this whole death incident.?

V. The Body Doesn?t Matter

I don?t think it?s overly reductive to state that there are three possible
outcomes for those who choose the freezer over a coffin: One, science never
overcomes the obstacles that stand in the way of bringing patients back and
they are either thawed and disposed of the way they would have been disposed
of originally. This is not a terrible outcome. They?ll have no idea it even
happened.

Two, the patients are thawed in whatever state they may be (fully preserved,
kind of preserved, badly preserved) and fatal issues are cured using newfound
treatments, while nanotechnology repairs all the cellular damage,
catastrophic and otherwise. If the body is old and decrepit, they?ll get a
new one, composed of parts grown in a lab, or maybe just synthetic. This is
Avatar.

Three, the body doesn?t matter. All that does is the brain, and some sort of
heretofore unimagined technology will allow future humans to thaw and then
access the data inside the brain and upload that data directly into a
machine, or the machine, or whatever.

That particular outcome ? the idea that one day, near or far (but probably
far), we?ll be able to upload ourselves, or at least transfer our mental
data, the stuff that makes us us, out of our sick, tired, dying bodies and
into, well, something else ? has a certain, admittedly tiny, segment of the
neuroscience community very excited.

Neuroscientist Ken Hayworth is a specialist in the emerging field of
connectomics, esteemed for his work in extremely high-resolution microscopy
of the human brain. Work that could, one day, provide the first-ever map of
the brain at the neuron level ? a map that many cryonicists think is the
critical link in being able to ?see? our personality, to locate the software
and access it, to maybe, possibly, one-day upload our consciousness and truly
live forever.

?I look at this from a practical point of view, if I can interject that word
into a conversation like this,? he told me by phone from his home in
Virginia, where he serves as a senior scientist for the Janelia Farm Research
Campus at the Howard Hughes Medical Institute. ?In my opinion, we?re not
going get to a cure to aging within my lifetime, possibly within my kids?
lifetimes. The thing that has always seemed to me low-hanging fruit is
preservation. It is fundamentally easier to stop something from decaying by
putting it in stasis than waiting until you figure out how to fix it.?

And yet, he is as skeptical as anyone about whether what Alcor is doing will
actually work. ?I go back and forth about whether to drop my membership,?
says Hayworth. Rather than just hope cryonics will do what it promises, he
decided to act as a sort of guerilla X-Prize director by announcing what he
called the Brain Preservation Prize. It offers $100,000, and the attendant
publicity, for the first persons to show proof of a perfectly preserved
brain, with absolutely no damage, and so far only two groups have entered.
One is a group of Germans at the Max Planck Institute. They?re pursuing
chemical preservation and are doing quite well. The downside to their
approach is that once preservation has begun the tissue is cooked; there?s no
hope of reinvigorating a chemically preserved brain as a living thing. The
other entry is from 21st Century Medicine, led by Dr. Greg Fahy, inventor of
Alcor?s cryoprotectant. (And if you want an example of just how touchy the
subject of cryonics is in the world of science, Fahy provides an excellent
example. Despite being the guy who invented the cryoprotectant widely
credited with improving Alcor?s work, and being on Alcor?s board, Fahy won?t
give interviews on the topic. The reason: 21st Century doesn?t want this one
polarizing subject to tar its broader work in the field of cryobiology.)

For all of his doubts about cryonics? ability to preserve a brain, Hayworth
notes that ?there are a couple of extremely relevant pieces of work that have
come out of Fahy?s lab that basically say cryonics cannot be dismissed.? In
2005, Fahy successfully froze a rabbit kidney at liquid nitrogen temperatures
(to -130 Celsius), stored it for a week, then thawed and re-implanted it in a
living rabbit. If there?s a single recent experiment that enlivens
cryonicists, it?s this one. The other, newer and lesser known ? but just as
exciting to Hayworth ? is an experiment in which Fahy took a one-half
millimeter slice of brain tissue from the hippocampus of a rat, vitrified and
froze it, then re-warmed it and showed that the cells were still intact.
Better yet, Fahy was able to use electrical stimulation to show that the
electrons were still spiking. ?That showed that it still has enough
connectivity to activate other parts of the slice,? which would indicate
that, as part of a whole, it would still work.

One thing that kept tripping me up about the feasibility of cryonics is that
it hinges on the notion that we can just put the brain to sleep, like a
laptop, then turn it back on and have the screen appear exactly the way we
left it. I can get behind the idea that we could freeze a collection of
tissue and organs, and bring them back someday (it?s possible on small
organisms already), but the idea that Josh Dean, guy who detests beets and
goes irrationally bananas about sporting events, would just magically still
be there ? after however many years ? seemed impossible. Where would that
person (or soul or collection of electrons or whatever) go in the intervening
years/decades?

This scenario ? of the brain turning back on once a person warms up ? happens
all the time, Aubrey de Grey told me. ?That?s exactly what occurs when
someone falls through ice in a frozen lake and is unconscious for a
half-hour.? When the body temperature drops below 18 degrees Celsius, he
said, electrical activity stops completely. There are many cases of people
falling into frigid water, lapsing into unconsciousness, and being reawakened
when warmed up. And if that?s true for two hours, it should in theory also be
true for two years (or 200) ? if we can just find a way to reach the
temperatures needed to forestall decay, without causing damage. The crux, de
Grey said, is determining whether or not cryonics preserves the molecular
structure of the brain without inflicting irreparable damage to the data that
makes us who we are.

Image by Alcor

A neuropatient, previously installed in a small cylindrical container, is
placed in a neuropod which is lowered into its central position among four
wholebody pods, all of which are immersed in liquid nitrogen. The mist forms
as water vapor in the air is chilled by nitrogen vapor.

This is why Ken Hayworth created the Brain Preservation Prize. And why Todd
Huffman, who spent a year-and-a-half doing laboratory research for Alcor,
founded 3Scan, a Bay Area start-up that is also backed in part by Breakout
Labs. In the most basic terms, 3Scan designs and builds microscopes to do
optical 3D scanning of brains, in the hopes of mapping the connections that
make up the connectome. (He?s also still a consultant for Alcor.) Huffman?s
scans are nowhere near as intricate as Hayworth?s, which can reveal detail
down to the axon-level, but they?re also more likely to show results soon.

Count Huffman among those convinced that the information in our brains can be
preserved, and thus, in theory, later recovered. But only if we?re doing
things in a manner that ensures that all of the brain tissue is actually
being saved. And right now, he?s far from certain. ?Fortunately, we don?t
have to solve the whole problem ? only how to do the best storage possible,?
he said. ?Once a person is at liquid nitrogen temperatures, time is no longer
a factor.?

Huffman has a very peculiar and, I think, reasonable endgame in mind for
himself. ?The difference between the civilization that revives us will be as
different as today versus 400 years ago. I don?t really expect to be revived
and given an apartment and job and sent into the world,? he said. ?I think
the purpose of reviving a person is about having a better understanding of
human history and the human condition.? He likens it to studying mummies or
discarded artifacts and thinks that this will be the motivation of future
generations to revive the residents of Alcor?s freezers, even though doing so
might well come at great cost. (A factor that many cryonicists choose to
ignore, or attempt to explain away using an argument of moral
responsibility.) ?I think they can reverse engineer neural circuitry, extract
out identity, memories, ideas, and study those ? to learn what it was like to
be human in 1980 through whenever I die.?

This isn?t quite the romantic vision held by many other cryonicists, who tend
to want to wake up and be the people they were, in whatever exciting new
world they inhabit, but it at least addressed another question that was
bugging me. What is going to make future generations want to spend the money,
and take the time, to revive freezers full of people from the past who could
then become rivals for their resources?

Huffman is working on very crude brain mapping as a kind of baby step toward
the gigantically huge challenge of unlocking the secrets of our brain ? of
being able to identify and map every single neural connection. I asked him
how close we were to doing that.

?What you described is probably one of the hardest problems humanity will
ever solve, if we solve it,? he answered, as chipper and un-exasperated as if
I?d asked him to describe his lunch. ?Brain complexity rivals the ecosystem
of the entire earth.? Huffman believes we will get there ? at least 50 and
?probably more like 100 years? from now ? and that a properly preserved human
brain will hold our personality and memories in storage for as long as it
takes. ?I think that neural information and coding is robust enough to
survive conventional dying and cryopreservation,? he said. ?I don?t believe
there is anything supernatural or fundamentally intractable about the way
that minds work. If you understand that completely, and assuming no spiritual
components or supernatural component, you should be able to emulate in
another substrate how those neurons compute. That?s the 100-year goal I?m
working towards.?

Both Hayworth and Huffman dismiss the notion that the personality is
something other than data that should be accessible. To argue otherwise,
Huffman says, is to mix the supernatural with science. ?I think to make a
statement that thought occurs in a place that fundamentally we can?t access
and will never be able to access ?I frankly think it?s stupid and
intellectually lazy.?

Ken Hayworth, who has worked at both Harvard and at NASA?s Jet Propulsion
Laboratory, has no doubt that the human personality can survive a prolonged
stasis. That?s why he?s so bullish about the Brain Preservation Prize,
because he knows that unlocking the connectome is going to take a very long
time and the only way to nullify time as a factor is to find a way to safely
store away brains in the meantime.

He is less abstruse about his motives for being preserved. ?I very much want
to see the future. I think of what Chris Hitchens said about dying ? what?s
bad about it is the party goes on without you. The thing that gets me more
involved in this is not a personal issue. Humanity doesn?t deserve to be
suffering and dying in hospitals just because they?re 70 or 80. Our best and
brightest minds like Einstein are just ripped away from us. Humanity deserves
better than that.?

Hayworth sees the connectomics research being done today by people like
himself, and Huffman, and MIT?s Sebastian Seung (a computational
neuroscientist and author of last year?s Connectome: How the Brain?s Wiring
Makes Us Who We Are) as the first step toward uploading. ?I embrace the idea
that human mind is a machine and our mind is the software.?

I asked if there was a counter argument that he would accept as plausible. ?I
don?t accept anything as a reasonable objection,? he replied. ?I think if you
had a structural image of all the connections, the neurons, I think that
would be sufficient to get memories and behaviors.?

The issue is getting there. It?s going to take, he said, ?at least hundreds
of billions of dollars to do this for one human brain and several decades.?
On the one hand, we have the tools, in particular the incredibly
high-resolution microscopy he himself invented. On the other hand, it?s far
harder problem than the genome ever was, and there isn?t a concerted effort
to solve it. ?It?s obviously technologically possible that we could have a
colony on Mars within my lifetime,? he replied. ?We?re not going to have a
colony on Mars in my lifetime.?


VI. And Finally, a Short, Strange Trip Into the Desert In Search of the Truth

On my final day in Phoenix, Max More and the Alcor team were occupied with
the matters of the urgent and unexpected cryopreservation, but there was
still one person in Arizona I wanted to meet. So, I took a drive out to the
desert to visit Dave Pizer, an entrepreneur and an original. In many ways the
whole of the cryonics story is wrapped up in this one bear-shouldered man
with the kempt hair and thick beard of a Civil War general. Once a breeder of
rare Friesian horses, not to mention a world-class tournament poker player,
these days he presides over a musty resort of cabins with heart-shaped hot
tubs in the remote high desert town of Mayer and, upon finally grasping that
my name was Josh and not Chuck or George, said, ?That?s kind of a juvenile
name for a mature guy like you? (then asked what it was short for).

?One day I decided I didn?t want to die,? Pizer began, once he?d adjusted his
hearing aid and settled into a folding chair in a cluttered room upstairs
from his resort?s lobby that he plans to turn into the world?s first-ever
cryonics museum. ?I was 11 or 12 and it struck me profoundly that I was going
to die someday and there wasn?t a damn thing I could do about it.? Cut to
1971, when Pizer, who had gotten his bachelor?s degree in philosophy while
also running a thriving automobile upholstery business he took over from his
father, made a sales call at a big Phoenix car dealership. There, one of the
shop guys was making fun of a story he?d just read in the paper. It was about
a company in California that froze people when they died so that they could
be stored away until technology came along to revive, cure them, and offer
eternal life. In the eyes of the mechanic, the story was ridiculous. But to
Pizer, it was a revelation.

?The idea just instantly made sense,? he said. ?It was probably the most
important thing a human could do at the time to have a chance to avoid being
dead forever. That?s a long time.?

When his insurance guy refused to write a policy to pay for the membership,
Pizer threatened to take away his company?s business and the agent found a
way to work around his misgivings. Even in the days before Fedex, Pizer
managed to get his forms signed and in the hands of Alcor in a matter of
days. ?I was the fastest signup in the history of cryonics,? Pizer said,
proudly. ?I probably still hold that record.?

Pizer eventually became Alcor?s Vice President, and served in that capacity
for 11 years, during which time he was instrumental in moving the operation
to Phoenix from Southern California. It got the company out of earthquake
danger, and also a tenuous political environment, where the Riverside County
coroner was a persistent threat. Being around Los Angeles, Pizer said, ?was a
very dangerous place to be, with earthquakes, civil unrest and terrorist
attacks. You don?t think of [the risk of a catastrophic event] in a normal
lifespan, but if you have to be in a frozen state for three or four hundred
years, the odds go up.?

Pizer has done as much thinking about cryonics as anyone on Earth. Back in
2006, he made the front page of the Wall Street Journal, above the fold and
illustrated with one of those little cross-hatch drawings of his amply
bearded head, for his efforts to create a ?personal revival trust? that would
protect his estate and set a legal precedent for other wealthy cryonics
patients, to ensure they wake up to a flush bank account that had been
shielded from descendents and governments. Pizer told that Journal that, with
the compounding interest on the $10 million in assets he planned to fritter
away, he could wake up after a century as ?the richest man in the world.?

As a student of philosophy, Pizer is reflexively cynical. He asked if I was
familiar with Pascal?s Wager, a line of reasoning concocted by the Christian
philosopher Blaise Pascal that was used to push skeptical converts off the
fence and onto Team Jesus. The basic idea was to say that, Hey, here?s what
we believe: If you?re a good person, and you die, you go to Heaven, an
awesome, beatific place where you live forever in bliss. Even if you suspect
Pascal is full of shit, there?s little downside. ?If you accept Christianity
and it?s all just a story, you?re dead anyhow,? Pizer said. ?You have nothing
to lose.? To Pizer, the question shouldn?t be, Why take cryonics seriously?
It?s: Why not take a flyer on it? ?It just costs a little bit, especially for
young people ? your dues and life insurance are probably less than a smoking
habit ? and if it ends up working, you can come back and live forever.?

As a man in his early seventies, Pizer has far fewer days ahead of him than
behind, and I wondered if he was disappointed that the movement he?d
supported for most of his adult life hadn?t yet caught the public?s
imagination. ?I?m disappointed, but on the other hand, there?s no objective
way to assume it?s going slow,? he answered. ?Objectively it may be going
faster than a speeding bullet when you compare what we had to start with and
how complex the problem is.?

He could be right. Maybe it?s only progressing slowly in current human
lifespan context. Maybe one day they?ll thaw people as simply as pot roasts
and everyone will think, ?I can?t believe how quickly we accomplished that!?
?I wish that they could improve the speed of aging reversal so I didn?t have
to spend a few hundred years in a can,? Pizer said. ?I?m not looking forward
to that.?

I asked him the question I?d asked Max More, Aubrey De Grey, Todd Huffman,
and pretty much everyone else I?d interviewed. What is the tipping point for
cryonics? When do we start to see it as a legitimate alternative to death,
with large numbers of people, and not just a few crackpots ? pardon me,
mavericks ? signing up?

He didn?t hesitate. ?When they bring the first guy back.? The problem, as we
just established, is that if this can actually be done, it might be hundreds
of years in the future. Which means anyone who decides to take the leap of
the faith in the meantime is left with what I?ll call Pizer?s Wager. He
thinks you?re nuts not to take it. ?We knew before we went to the moon that
it could be done. It wasn?t against the laws of physics. Can you reverse
aging so people can live forever, virtually, as long as they have a place to
live in? Sure, why not? What is aging? It?s just an engineering problem.?

Pizer is sensitive to the notion that some people view cryonics as a cult,
and that Alcor is only interested in exploiting a fear of mortality for
financial gain. He made a point to say that is no longer associated with
Alcor in any official capacity. ?I?m just a rank and file member. But for a
guy that?s been around for 40 years or so, studying and reading and going to
college and working in the field, ?I feel certain that cryonics can work. I
didn?t say it would work because there are other outside factors.? Humans
could destroy the planet. The government could ban cryonics. Or a group of
religious zealots, fearing the growing influence of a competing movement,
could do something rash.

Back in Phoenix, the body of the delinquent nightclub owner was just settling
into its new stainless steel capsule. After many hours of fingernail-gnawing
at Alcor, the corpse was retrieved in the field, flown to Phoenix, and
successfully cryopreserved, at least as far as anyone could tell. The
mortuary in Las Vegas had helped matters by injecting heparin, and getting
the body on ice, quickly. More than 24 hours passed, but Max More and his
team had done the best they could under the circumstances, and so this
nonagenarian from Nevada, a full body cryo, became the 112th person to take
up residence in the stainless steel canisters at the Alcor Life Extension
Foundation. Henceforth, he will be known as patient number A-2628. And
considering that fewer than 250 people (including the idea?s godfather,
Robert Ettinger, who became the 106th person frozen at the Cryonics Institute
in 2011, when he died at the age of 92, as well as his mother and two former
wives) have chosen this path in the whole of human history, it seems fair
still to call them cryonauts ? they are the extremely few intrepid souls who
have taken a path that might be slightly less final than death.

Someday in the not-too-distant future Dave Pizer will join them, and in his
final breaths, after taking in the world he hopes to one day see again, he
might well say a little prayer. Near the end of our conversation, Pizer
admitted that he?s hedging the bet he already hedged, because, hey, we?re
talking about death here. ?I?m not anti-religious,? he said. In the occasion
that he?s read things completely wrong, Pizer has left room in his mind for
more than one wager. ?I hope there?s a God,? he said. ?And that he?s a nice
guy, and very forgiving.?

Image by Alcor

Cold blooded: The Alcor operating theater.


From eugen at leitl.org  Fri Jul  5 10:56:16 2013
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2013 12:56:16 +0200
Subject: [ExI] 23andme again
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armgTp3u3gqn2-7U_bDbuS2f4itWVyAjMyH=msAER4J2vyQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <008401ce760d$dffbda00$9ff38e00$@rainier66.com>
 <51D17A6D.9060503@libero.it>
 <CAL_armitd=0WYzvyi=tgN3vmxMpjjmiEQrWHYdJBCcEM_TQG8w@mail.gmail.com>
 <00d801ce7673$4a346f30$de9d4d90$@rainier66.com>
 <018601ce77a2$05fe9220$11fbb660$@rainier66.com>
 <018d01ce77aa$b87c1b90$297452b0$@rainier66.com>
 <51D3EFCB.7080002@libero.it>
 <01d601ce77f4$10ab4b30$3201e190$@rainier66.com>
 <51D5BC8B.5090500@libero.it>
 <CAL_armgTp3u3gqn2-7U_bDbuS2f4itWVyAjMyH=msAER4J2vyQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20130705105616.GZ24217@leitl.org>

On Thu, Jul 04, 2013 at 07:48:12PM +0100, BillK wrote:

> Heh! :)  Of course the reports don't say anything nasty. They were
> written by Jesus' followers many years later to show him in a good
> light. These aren't the police evidence documents, you know.   :)

The practice of usury is uniformly condemned by all mainstream
religions. There is a very good reason for that.


From pharos at gmail.com  Fri Jul  5 11:58:14 2013
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2013 12:58:14 +0100
Subject: [ExI] 23andme again
In-Reply-To: <20130705105616.GZ24217@leitl.org>
References: <008401ce760d$dffbda00$9ff38e00$@rainier66.com>
 <51D17A6D.9060503@libero.it>
 <CAL_armitd=0WYzvyi=tgN3vmxMpjjmiEQrWHYdJBCcEM_TQG8w@mail.gmail.com>
 <00d801ce7673$4a346f30$de9d4d90$@rainier66.com>
 <018601ce77a2$05fe9220$11fbb660$@rainier66.com>
 <018d01ce77aa$b87c1b90$297452b0$@rainier66.com>
 <51D3EFCB.7080002@libero.it>
 <01d601ce77f4$10ab4b30$3201e190$@rainier66.com>
 <51D5BC8B.5090500@libero.it>
 <CAL_armgTp3u3gqn2-7U_bDbuS2f4itWVyAjMyH=msAER4J2vyQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20130705105616.GZ24217@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <CAL_armhNLQvSV81gaqs2zcDSESxgEyJVz5uHYLeAo0QcKG_NKw@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jul 5, 2013 at 11:56 AM, Eugen Leitl wrote:
> The practice of usury is uniformly condemned by all mainstream
> religions. There is a very good reason for that.
>

It's not as simple as that. Remember Shylock? The Jews were the rich
moneylenders. Disliked, but everybody used their services. (Until
Christians were allowed to do money-lending).

In the new Testament story, Jesus wasn't offended by the moneylending
itself so much as by the practice of turning the temple into business
premises. He chased them out of the temple.

Jesus used money-lending in his own parables. In the Parable of the talents:
    "Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers,
and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury."
?Matthew 25:27

Borrowing and lending is treated in a complicated fashion in most
religions. Mainly because it is a necessary evil, so they have to do a
double-think to get round their religious rules and still be allowed
to invest and borrow. Religion causes this sort of problem all the
time. Is this food allowed to be eaten? Is this really food? Am I
really eating it? And so on.........

BillK



From eugen at leitl.org  Fri Jul  5 16:20:45 2013
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2013 18:20:45 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Distributed Everything
Message-ID: <20130705162045.GR24217@leitl.org>


https://medium.com/surveillance-state/19a5db211e47

Distributed Everything

Why Medium isn?t the answer and how to use the Internet

Every morning I use a stove top espresso maker to make my coffee. I put three
spoonfuls of Caf? Bustelo into the middle chamber, fill the base with water,
and put the stove on low. Two or so minutes later I have some coffee.

I finally got my invite to Medium. No doubt because hype has died down, and
Medium needs a new batch of numbskulls to get excited about front-end
editability.

I?m more interested in using Medium to tell you not to use Medium. I wonder
if doing this will get me banned from Medium, I suspect it will. Hence the
problem.

In the beginning, the Internet was distributed.

My stovetop espresso maker is distributed.

In the beginning the Internet was distributed. Just like my stove top
espresso maker.

Occasionally I go to Starbucks to get a cup of coffee. It?s easier this way.
They have the coffee made for me. All I have to do is fork over $2.40 and
they?ll hand me a cup of coffee.

If Starbucks was free, you?d get a cup of coffee with an advertisement on the
side. And you?d go there more often.

Perhaps at the Starbucks of the future you?ll get a free coffee if you look
at an advertisement for 30 seconds.

Starbucks is a centralized source of coffee. This means the system works the
same everywhere you go. This is comfortable, because I know anywhere I am in
the world. Whether I?m buying coffee in Toyko, New York City, or a suburb
west of San Francisco I?ll get a very similar taste.

Not even five years ago, baristas in Starbucks pulled their own shots. But if
you watch them do their work now, you?ll see this isn?t true anymore. A
Starbucks barista is basically a button pusher. They choose which button to
push, and push it. The drink comes out.

It takes zero skill to be a Starbucks barista. Sorry baristas, but it?s true.

Over the past five years, more and more people have started using the
Internet like Starbucks. They?re all going to centralized sources for their
cups of coffee.

You know the sources. You?re all on them. F***book. Shitter. To some extent
Poogle Glus. When we think of the Internet, we think of these sources.

Now Medium wants to be another player. It wants you to feel safe to publish
here.

When you use these services, you?re not even a button pushing Starbucks at
Barista. You?re just ordering a free latte at hypothetical ad-sponsored
Starbucks of the future. You?re not even pushing the button.You?re just a
user.

So we have this generation of people who think using the Internet is typing
into a box and pushing the send button on one of these centralized services.

Then this week the news comes to light that the biggest companies in America
are also just funnels of information to America?s NSA. Nothing you do on them
is secure or private.

These services are easy and free, but it?s also a double-edged sword because
you?re essentially piping all of your private information straight to the
United States government without them even needing a warrant.

Get all mad and do nothing People are mad about the fact that their favorite
services are secretly handing over all of their data.

Most are doing absolutely nothing about it.

A year ago (late 2011/2012) I got very interested in this
centralized/distributed problem. I?d been traveling around the world. First I
went down to Mexico, and saw how free it is down there. I went back up to San
Francisco, and I sold my iPhone in the Mission. I got $360 for it, at the
time. iPhones were still hot shit back then. The extra inch hadn?t been added
yet.

Then I caught a flight to Singapore.

At the time I was writing a lot, and I didn?t know anything about Singapore.
So I figured, why not head over there? Little did I know that Singapore
doesn?t have the same freedom of speech laws we take for granted in America.

In other words, you can get in big trouble in Singapore just for saying or
writing something.A few weeks ago, this became even more clear to everyone
with the Singaporean $30,000 blogging license story I read a few weeks ago.

I suspect at some point the Singapore intelligence agency may have hacked
into my email while I was there (another IP was registering on my Gmail
account). Also I believe I was interviewed by a Singaporean spy.

Reading all of this, you might think I was doing something wrong. I wasn?t. I
was just a tourist in Singapore writing to the Internet every single day,
because writing to the Internet every day was my job.

This, in Singapore, makes you a suspect.

After the encounter with the spy in Singapore, I decided to leave. I booked a
flight to Tokyo and 24 hours later I felt a lot safer.

Centralized vs Distributed After my Singapore trip, I started to get really
interested in the centralized vs distributed problem.

Over the next few months, I traveled from Tokyo to Berlin to Kansas City to
Boulder, Co. Everywhere I was seeing this problem, everywhere this problem
was a part of me.

I?d deleted my website, and was using Google+ as my main publishing space.
This turned out to be a bad idea, because I was getting more into Bitcoin.

Bitcoin is apparently a keyword that gets your posts sorted out of the stream
In Google+. In Google?s world, ?Caturday? posts go viral. Bitcoin posts don?t
even show up in your follower?s streams.

But there?s no way to prove this, is there? Because Google+ is centralized.
It?s also closed source. So there?s no way you can see what is getting sorted
out, and what isn?t.

Six months later, I had this same problem in New York using Mailchimp?s Tiny
Letter. This time, I knew I was being censored. I wrote a piece to my list of
1600 people at the time with the word Bitcoin in it. Five minutes later I had
an email in my inbox saying my message had been flagged.

After a day of emailing back and forth with Tiny Letter, I managed to
convince ?Katherine? that Bitcoin was a technology used by hundreds of
thousands of people on the Internet.

She let me send that one message, but told me I?d end up in the filter every
single time if I ever used the word Bitcoin again.

So, being that I wanted to continue to send more emails, I stopped using the
word Bitcoin in emails.

Censored In the beginning the Internet was distributed. It was hard to censor
people during that time. This is why the early Internet was so filled with
furry porn. No one could stop you, because no one knew who anyone was.

There?s nothing illegal about posting images of cartoon animals having sex.
It?s just weird. And F***book doesn?t want any weird. The only drama F***book
wants is your relationship drama. Elementary-level ?he said, she said? drama.

So as more and more people started using these services, I noticed the level
of the conversations around me dropping closer to the kind of conversations
people have in kindergarten.

We?ve all moved towards these centralized sources because they?re clean,
they?re easy, you know what to expect. Nothing jumps out of the woods at you.
You don?t accidentally end up inside someone?s public furry porn collection,
because the big companies ban this stuff.

Everywhere we?re starting to see report buttons. If you see something, say
something. Furry porn? Report button. Bitcoin? Report button. Someone has
some crazy ideas you don?t want to hear? Report button.

What does this sound like?

So now George Orwell?s still-not-banned book 1984 is flying off the shelves.
And yet we?re all still F***booking.

Why? Because we don?t know how to go back to the distributed Internet.

If Starbucks replaced all of the button-pushing espresso machines with real
espresso machines, they?d have to fire everyone to works in Starbucks and
hire baristas from Cafe Vita, Blue Bottle, and Stumptown.

Because no one who works at Starbucks knows how to pull a shot anymore.

The same is true for you. You have no idea how to type HTML anymore. You have
no idea how to deploy a Node.js application. You have no idea how to create a
link to another website.

If you can?t figure out how to make a link to another site without using a
button to do it, how the hell are you going to figure out how to create a new
Internet where all of the packets are encrypted?

How are you going to figure out distributed peer to peer social networking?

How are you going to figure out how you make all of your instant messaging
forward-secure?

So my argument is this: don?t use Medium, because it makes you dumber. Go
learn to pull your own shots. Get off these centralized services.

Don?t just log out. Delete your accounts. This will force you to learn how to
use the Internet the hard way.

Distributed everything

So I?ve illustrated the problem. Now I want to talk about a few of the
solutions I?ve discovered in the past few years of pulling my own shots.

CJDNS + Hyperboria. There are around 100 people living and working on another
Internet called Hyperboria. It?s based on a mesh networking router called
CJDNS. If you get someone to peer you in, you?ll discover another Internet
that?s a whole lot freer than this one. Visit Project Meshnet

IRC. Everyone who wants to make sure their messages land use IRC as a
backchannel now.

Duckduckgo. The search engine that gets you out of your filter bubble, and
respects your privacy.

Pump.io. The creator of Identi.ca has a new federated social network called
Pump. Visit him at e14n.com

Host your own web server. Get your own VPS (Digital Ocean is only $5 a month)
and host your own web server. Deploy using Node.js using Bitters.

When in doubt, start by learning some Internet basics. HTML5 and CSS3 are a
good start for anyone who?s never learned how to code. Then move on to
JavaScript and the other favorite languages of the Internet.

We?re not going to get through this by pushing buttons on centralized
services.

If you want to use the Internet in 2013, you need to pick up some tech
skills. In a few years this will probably be all figured out and no one will
be intercepting your iMessages.

Until then, let?s send everyone a strong message by deleting our accounts on
centralized services and learning how to use the distributed Internet.

Visit my distributed website at http://evbogue.com/

If you liked this story, help me get to $499 a week on Gittip by July 31st
2013 so I can help build the distributed web.


From painlord2k at libero.it  Fri Jul  5 18:11:03 2013
From: painlord2k at libero.it (Mirco Romanato)
Date: Fri, 05 Jul 2013 20:11:03 +0200
Subject: [ExI] 23andme again
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armgTp3u3gqn2-7U_bDbuS2f4itWVyAjMyH=msAER4J2vyQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <51CB00B9.1010404@libero.it>
 <002a01ce7348$0a4c5fa0$1ee51ee0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armggHDoJXnDxVm7WK=FuXSv+fkM0t1gN_CsFgHmOSjPuuA@mail.gmail.com>
 <006d01ce735d$ce8fdad0$6baf9070$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPGs0J_g52uK+hWPkJqrtqYcx_g3gM2+aGG4TSJ69vVSOWBk4w@mail.gmail.com>
 <20130627184859.GK24217@leitl.org>
 <00ac01ce736f$d0fa6d00$72ef4700$@rainier66.com>
 <CAOJFdbLL2DU=vrUERMOG7MhWf=33cecsin3=yDX8FOh+3Wh0dg@mail.gmail.com>
 <003401ce7415$a52b32d0$ef819870$@rainier66.com>
 <008401ce760d$dffbda00$9ff38e00$@rainier66.com> <51D17A6D.9060503@libero.it>
 <CAL_armitd=0WYzvyi=tgN3vmxMpjjmiEQrWHYdJBCcEM_TQG8w@mail.gmail.com>
 <00d801ce7673$4a346f30$de9d4d90$@rainier66.com>
 <018601ce77a2$05fe9220$11fbb660$@rainier66.com>
 <018d01ce77aa$b87c1b90$297452b0$@rainier66.com> <51D3EFCB.7080002@libero.it>
 <01d601ce77f4$10ab4b30$3201e190$@rainier66.com> <51D5BC8B.5090500@libero.it>
 <CAL_armgTp3u3gqn2-7U_bDbuS2f4itWVyAjMyH=msAER4J2vyQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <51D70C37.4030106@libero.it>

Il 04/07/2013 20:48, BillK ha scritto:
> On Thu, Jul 4, 2013 at 7:18 PM, Mirco Romanato  wrote:
>> The merchants were a bunch of squatters squatting in his father's home.
>> He was dealing with a home invasion is the kindlest way possible.
>> In fact, the episode do not report any merchant being harmed or
>> resorting to call the local police (or the guards of the Sinedrium).
>> In fact, when he was put on trial, in chains, no one charged him with
>> assault or anything else.

> Heh! :)  Of course the reports don't say anything nasty. They were
> written by Jesus' followers many years later to show him in a good
> light. These aren't the police evidence documents, you know.   :)

Yes.

In comparison, if you read about another religious figure living a few
centuries after (in Arabia), you could compare his followers reports and
it is difficult to imagine the police would charge him with anything worse.

Al Capone would figure as a Scout Girl selling cookies in comparison.

Mirco



From spike at rainier66.com  Sun Jul  7 04:54:04 2013
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike)
Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2013 21:54:04 -0700
Subject: [ExI] 23andSingularity
Message-ID: <000c01ce7ace$027c3830$0774a890$@rainier66.com>



OK, I admit to obsessing over this whole 23 business.  So sue me.

If we give a computer a clear and narrowly defined goal, software can mimic
human intelligence, in that one narrow area.  The classic example is chess.

It occurred to me that we could program something like a will to figure out
an enormous but very specific question: how are all the carbon units on
23andMe related?

We have a number of techniques we can use, similar to the ones I had: a
young lady contacted me with only her name and her father's name.  From that
I was able to go to her facebook page, verify that her photo there matched
the photo on her 23andMe page, so I know I had the right person, from that
get her birth date and place, compare my ancestry to hers to get the
intersection, go into my relatives looking for existing family trees in soft
copy on Ancestry dot com, trace branched downward until I found a name that
matches the one she supplied for her father, go to Spokeo and see that one
of his past addresses is a small town where she was born.

There is not one step anywhere above that couldn't be done with computer
code.  If we set scripts to run tirelessly searching using these various
techniques, I have no doubt we could accumulate enormous databases in such a
way that the computer code just keeps getting smarter and smarter, until it
is way better than human counterparts, just as computers can play better
chess than any human now.  It would represent a kind of nano-singularity, a
tiny slice of human existence in which code came along and was taught our
ways of finding these sorts of things, then it just started doing it and
accumulating more and more data, with error checking and verification, and
with each verified link, the system became stronger, since it can now use
those links to find others, until one day it surpasses every human.  Then in
that one tiny nano-slice of life, we could claim that a singularity of sorts
has occurred.  

We might not even be able to figure out how the code discovered the genetic
links: it was given a goal to find them, along with a bucket of techniques
like what I did in the fourth paragraph, and off it went.  Then most people
on the planet, or rather most westerners, could just give it a DNA sample
and it could hand you back your entire genome history map, including all
anomalies, within minutes.

Oooh my, is this cool, or what?

spike





From atymes at gmail.com  Sun Jul  7 06:47:21 2013
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2013 23:47:21 -0700
Subject: [ExI] 23andSingularity
In-Reply-To: <000c01ce7ace$027c3830$0774a890$@rainier66.com>
References: <000c01ce7ace$027c3830$0774a890$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNTs8tnr=_X9H62EDBdvaiU137rcWP6j_k4UKuL+guMyLg@mail.gmail.com>

How's it going to handle the many people - probably the
majority, still, of humans on Earth - for whom there is no
publicly accessible online information?

(FaceBook claims to have billions of users.  At least
some of them provably do not map to any actual human
being, even if that is in violation of FB's terms of service.
One wonders if perhaps the majority of its claim is such
cases.)


On Sat, Jul 6, 2013 at 9:54 PM, spike <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:

>
>
> OK, I admit to obsessing over this whole 23 business.  So sue me.
>
> If we give a computer a clear and narrowly defined goal, software can mimic
> human intelligence, in that one narrow area.  The classic example is chess.
>
> It occurred to me that we could program something like a will to figure out
> an enormous but very specific question: how are all the carbon units on
> 23andMe related?
>
> We have a number of techniques we can use, similar to the ones I had: a
> young lady contacted me with only her name and her father's name.  From
> that
> I was able to go to her facebook page, verify that her photo there matched
> the photo on her 23andMe page, so I know I had the right person, from that
> get her birth date and place, compare my ancestry to hers to get the
> intersection, go into my relatives looking for existing family trees in
> soft
> copy on Ancestry dot com, trace branched downward until I found a name that
> matches the one she supplied for her father, go to Spokeo and see that one
> of his past addresses is a small town where she was born.
>
> There is not one step anywhere above that couldn't be done with computer
> code.  If we set scripts to run tirelessly searching using these various
> techniques, I have no doubt we could accumulate enormous databases in such
> a
> way that the computer code just keeps getting smarter and smarter, until it
> is way better than human counterparts, just as computers can play better
> chess than any human now.  It would represent a kind of nano-singularity, a
> tiny slice of human existence in which code came along and was taught our
> ways of finding these sorts of things, then it just started doing it and
> accumulating more and more data, with error checking and verification, and
> with each verified link, the system became stronger, since it can now use
> those links to find others, until one day it surpasses every human.  Then
> in
> that one tiny nano-slice of life, we could claim that a singularity of
> sorts
> has occurred.
>
> We might not even be able to figure out how the code discovered the genetic
> links: it was given a goal to find them, along with a bucket of techniques
> like what I did in the fourth paragraph, and off it went.  Then most people
> on the planet, or rather most westerners, could just give it a DNA sample
> and it could hand you back your entire genome history map, including all
> anomalies, within minutes.
>
> Oooh my, is this cool, or what?
>
> spike
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From msd001 at gmail.com  Sun Jul  7 12:56:44 2013
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2013 08:56:44 -0400
Subject: [ExI] 23andSingularity
In-Reply-To: <000c01ce7ace$027c3830$0774a890$@rainier66.com>
References: <000c01ce7ace$027c3830$0774a890$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAOJFdbKFzVm=7=jK3nhXaAvayDWAubQjghSs8GVy6YucWN0V5w@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jul 7, 2013 at 12:54 AM, spike <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:
> It occurred to me that we could program something like a will to figure out
> an enormous but very specific question: how are all the carbon units on
> 23andMe related?
>
>
> We might not even be able to figure out how the code discovered the genetic
> links: it was given a goal to find them, along with a bucket of techniques
> like what I did in the fourth paragraph, and off it went.  Then most people
> on the planet, or rather most westerners, could just give it a DNA sample
> and it could hand you back your entire genome history map, including all
> anomalies, within minutes.
>
> Oooh my, is this cool, or what?

yeah, it's cool in the sense "wow, the possibility exists and we can do it"

Not cool in the sense that those with the resources ARE doing it; for
their benefit.

Facebork's whole business plan is selling the network of who's who
(and what's what?)

And what of that govt operation named after the triangular optics that
refracts light?


From anders at aleph.se  Sun Jul  7 13:57:55 2013
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Sun, 07 Jul 2013 14:57:55 +0100
Subject: [ExI] 23andSingularity
In-Reply-To: <000c01ce7ace$027c3830$0774a890$@rainier66.com>
References: <000c01ce7ace$027c3830$0774a890$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <51D973E3.1090306@aleph.se>

On 2013-07-07 05:54, spike wrote:
> It occurred to me that we could program something like a will to figure out
> an enormous but very specific question: how are all the carbon units on
> 23andMe related?

Sounds doable. I think existing phylogenetics algorithms/software almost 
should be able to do it, but the extra info about humans (names etc.) 
would help the process even more. The end result is not a guaranteed 
family table, but a probabilistic best match.

I think some of the sleuthing is slightly nontrivial to automate, but 
even the trivial part is enough to provide extra information to help 
narrow things down. Essentially it is a giant sensor fusion problem.

> It would represent a kind of nano-singularity, a
> tiny slice of human existence in which code came along and was taught our
> ways of finding these sorts of things, then it just started doing it and
> accumulating more and more data, with error checking and verification, and
> with each verified link, the system became stronger, since it can now use
> those links to find others, until one day it surpasses every human.  Then in
> that one tiny nano-slice of life, we could claim that a singularity of sorts
> has occurred.

At least a phase transition. Perhaps like the one that happened among us 
in the 90s as we became globally connected (and is still rolling 
outwards - those Tajik goat-herders showing off their smartphones are 
not the last generation). It is very much like percolation: as the 
probabilitiy of nodes being conencted increases, at some point a giant 
component emerges where most of the nodes are linked.


-- 
Dr Anders Sandberg
Future of Humanity Institute
Oxford Martin School
Oxford University



From spike at rainier66.com  Sun Jul  7 14:26:40 2013
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike)
Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2013 07:26:40 -0700
Subject: [ExI] 23andSingularity
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNTs8tnr=_X9H62EDBdvaiU137rcWP6j_k4UKuL+guMyLg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <000c01ce7ace$027c3830$0774a890$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNTs8tnr=_X9H62EDBdvaiU137rcWP6j_k4UKuL+guMyLg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <003f01ce7b1e$000a6680$001f3380$@rainier66.com>

 

From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes
Sent: Saturday, July 06, 2013 11:47 PM
To: ExI chat list
Subject: Re: [ExI] 23andSingularity

 

How's it going to handle the many people - probably the

majority, still, of humans on Earth - for whom there is no

publicly accessible online information?... Adrian

Ja, we tend to forget those who are living in modern times but are still not
connected.  The very first step is to master some language that can be
expressed on a standard ASCII keyboard.  Without that, they live in a
parallel universe that doesn't interact with ours with any significance.  In
so many important ways, they just don't count.

 

spike

 

 

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From spike at rainier66.com  Sun Jul  7 14:48:59 2013
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike)
Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2013 07:48:59 -0700
Subject: [ExI] 23andSingularity
In-Reply-To: <CAOJFdbKFzVm=7=jK3nhXaAvayDWAubQjghSs8GVy6YucWN0V5w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <000c01ce7ace$027c3830$0774a890$@rainier66.com>
 <CAOJFdbKFzVm=7=jK3nhXaAvayDWAubQjghSs8GVy6YucWN0V5w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <004a01ce7b21$1dc7be90$59573bb0$@rainier66.com>


>... On Behalf Of Mike Dougherty
Subject: Re: [ExI] 23andSingularity

On Sun, Jul 7, 2013 at 12:54 AM, spike <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:
>>... It occurred to me that we could program something like a will to 
> figure out an enormous but very specific question: how are all the 
> carbon units on 23andMe related?... Oooh my, is this cool, or what?

>...yeah, it's cool in the sense "wow, the possibility exists and we can do
it"

>...Not cool in the sense that those with the resources ARE doing it; for
their benefit.

>...Facebork's whole business plan is selling the network of who's who (and
what's what?)

>...And what of that govt operation named after the triangular optics that
refracts light?
_______________________________________________

Ja, so here's my idea, a remarkably simple one.  23andMe has all these
genetic profiles which they sell to medical insurance companies which allow
the companies to cherry pick the most profitable profiles, even to include
some clients which never had their DNA tested.  Reasoning: some of our most
expensive diseases are quite unlikely in an offspring if neither parent has
the genetic marker.  23andMe could infer the offspring are at a low risk,
sell the info to insurance companies for profit.

OK, so now we can do the same trick, only better.  We can figure out which
diseases we are genetically predisposed to escape, then use that info to get
the insurance companies to offer us discounts.  That way, we win on health
insurance costs if we won the genome lottery.

Here's another one for you.  Suppose there is some known disease which is
associated with two particular markers.  If you have one of the markers, you
have about a 2x risk, if you have both, about an 8x risk.  The insurance
company wants to charge you a premium for that risk.  You, being an internet
hipster, look into that particular disease and learn that while true, your
having both markers makes you 8x more at risk, you also need to compensate
by noting your current age.  If the condition in question ordinarily
presents at age 10 to 15, then by age 50, if one still shows no signs of the
disease, the likelihood is low.

In some cases, such as scoliosis, once the patient is finished growing,
there is no further risk of developing the condition.  It is too easy to
imagine insurance companies charging a fully grown adult client a premium
for having a genetic predisposition to scoliosis.  The hip patient could use
knowledge to fight back and get a better deal.

We could set up a system where we are professional advocates for patients
dealing with insurance companies.  It would be like an accountant hired by a
client to deal with the IRS, only the insurance company doesn't have the
authority to have you thrown in prison indefinitely.  A new industry can
emerge here.

spike



From atymes at gmail.com  Sun Jul  7 16:09:06 2013
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2013 09:09:06 -0700
Subject: [ExI] 23andSingularity
In-Reply-To: <003f01ce7b1e$000a6680$001f3380$@rainier66.com>
References: <000c01ce7ace$027c3830$0774a890$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNTs8tnr=_X9H62EDBdvaiU137rcWP6j_k4UKuL+guMyLg@mail.gmail.com>
 <003f01ce7b1e$000a6680$001f3380$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNTa3cG_vS3wEcD1rCGwETwZQ2V0uSPeOT=eM3MEoYstuQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jul 7, 2013 at 7:26 AM, spike <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:

> Ja, we tend to forget those who are living in modern times but are still
> not connected.  The very first step is to master some language that can be
> expressed on a standard ASCII keyboard.  Without that, they live in a
> parallel universe that doesn?t interact with ours with any significance.
> In so many important ways, they just don?t count.
>

According to the CIA World Factbook, there were only 2.1 billion Internet
users in 2010.

The rest of the world lives, breathes, eats, labors...but you're right,
even cumulatively their effect on the world is far less than those online.
A large part of this is that those online also happen to be those with
resources, those who are better educated, and so on, and of course those
factors have been correlated with world impact for ages.

So, that does account for the majority of humanity.  But even among the 2.1
billion who are online, how many of them choose not to post things you
could track them down by?
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From spike at rainier66.com  Sun Jul  7 17:39:45 2013
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike)
Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2013 10:39:45 -0700
Subject: [ExI] 23andSingularity
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNTa3cG_vS3wEcD1rCGwETwZQ2V0uSPeOT=eM3MEoYstuQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <000c01ce7ace$027c3830$0774a890$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNTs8tnr=_X9H62EDBdvaiU137rcWP6j_k4UKuL+guMyLg@mail.gmail.com>
 <003f01ce7b1e$000a6680$001f3380$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNTa3cG_vS3wEcD1rCGwETwZQ2V0uSPeOT=eM3MEoYstuQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <002301ce7b38$fabbcdc0$f0336940$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes



 

>.According to the CIA World Factbook, there were only 2.1 billion Internet
users in 2010.But even among the 2.1 billion who are online, how many of
them choose not to post things you could track them down by?  Adrian

 

Point taken.  Three people look at each other.  One spends most of his time
grubbing around trying to feed himself and his family, one spends her time
reading magazines about the latest celebrity and trying to score tickets to
a local hip hop concert, one posts to the internet about how to save money
on health insurance.  Each looks at the other two and says "What a useless
wasted life is that."

Our corner of humanity is not humanity.  The rest of it, I have no access.
My part is the part of humanity that I know about and care about.  

spike

 

 

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From msd001 at gmail.com  Sun Jul  7 17:53:58 2013
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2013 13:53:58 -0400
Subject: [ExI] 23andSingularity
In-Reply-To: <002301ce7b38$fabbcdc0$f0336940$@rainier66.com>
References: <000c01ce7ace$027c3830$0774a890$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNTs8tnr=_X9H62EDBdvaiU137rcWP6j_k4UKuL+guMyLg@mail.gmail.com>
 <003f01ce7b1e$000a6680$001f3380$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNTa3cG_vS3wEcD1rCGwETwZQ2V0uSPeOT=eM3MEoYstuQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <002301ce7b38$fabbcdc0$f0336940$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAOJFdb+LeJ3qkRgGvy8rAx+UVavPEXR_LciHFXb07MA+vKjSfQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jul 7, 2013 at 1:39 PM, spike <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:
> Point taken.  Three people look at each other.  One spends most of his time
> grubbing around trying to feed himself and his family, one spends her time
> reading magazines about the latest celebrity and trying to score tickets to
> a local hip hop concert, one posts to the internet about how to save money
> on health insurance.  Each looks at the other two and says ?What a useless
> wasted life is that.?
>
> Our corner of humanity is not humanity.  The rest of it, I have no access.
> My part is the part of humanity that I know about and care about.

Right.  Regardless of 'lightspeed delays' in the hive mind, we're
already worlds apart in our collective.



From anders at aleph.se  Sun Jul  7 18:55:07 2013
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Sun, 07 Jul 2013 19:55:07 +0100
Subject: [ExI] 23andSingularity
In-Reply-To: <002301ce7b38$fabbcdc0$f0336940$@rainier66.com>
References: <000c01ce7ace$027c3830$0774a890$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNTs8tnr=_X9H62EDBdvaiU137rcWP6j_k4UKuL+guMyLg@mail.gmail.com>
 <003f01ce7b1e$000a6680$001f3380$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNTa3cG_vS3wEcD1rCGwETwZQ2V0uSPeOT=eM3MEoYstuQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <002301ce7b38$fabbcdc0$f0336940$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <51D9B98B.2050109@aleph.se>

The trope that "most people have not yet made a phone call yet" is alive 
and well, despite having been wrong for several years (there are 6 
billion phones by now), yet it hangs on. Same thing with a lot of other 
assumptions about just how backwards the rest of the world is - this is 
why Hans Rosling is doing important work in debunking these myths.

Clearly personal genomics is done by a super minority today - 23andme 
are hoping for one million signed up at the end of the year, which is an 
order of magnitude increase. That might well be very optimistic. But as 
the price comes down exponentially, people find uses for the data 
(whether sane or crazy uses) we should expect an exponential increase in 
people getting it - and as cellphones have demonstrated, even very high 
tech can, if packaged well, be spread in fairly poor societies. Personal 
genomics looks like it could do that (send in samples, get access to 
results - no need for local hightech infrastructure). So at some point 
we are going to see a genomics transition as a sizeable fraction gets 
sequenced.

How large does the fraction need to be to allow inferences about 
relatedness? One million SNPs is about one million bits of 
distinguishing information, one should be able to discern relatedness 
out to thousands of generations that way (caveats about non-50% 
distributions here). In practice there are plenty of statistical 
problems - see 
http://www.biostat.washington.edu/~bsweir/BIOST551/WeirAndersonHepler.pdf <http://www.biostat.washington.edu/%7Ebsweir/BIOST551/WeirAndersonHepler.pdf> 
for some examples, although a lot of this discussion is already obsolete 
since we can get so many SNPs. 
http://www.nist.gov/mml/bmd/genetics/upload/PIIS1872497311001426.pdf 
suggests that current methods work well out to second cousins, but 
becomes shaky at third cousins. So that would suggest that if X and Y 
are within 5 family links (sibling/offspring/parent) from each other 
they can be linked. Each person has about 5 people within 1 step (2 
parents, 1 sibling, 2 offspring), so there is about 4^5=1024 people 
within that radius (4 because we are tracing the tree outwards). So as 
soon as 1 on 1024 people has their genome we should expect a big 
percolation transition as the probability of getting somebody within 
this radius jumps. That will happen at about 306,000 US members, or 6.8 
million worldwide.

Now, if 23andme are successful in their ambitions, that transition will 
happen for the US within a year.

-- 
Dr Anders Sandberg
Future of Humanity Institute
Oxford Martin School
Oxford University



From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Mon Jul  8 03:48:34 2013
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2013 23:48:34 -0400
Subject: [ExI] 23andSingularity
In-Reply-To: <51D9B98B.2050109@aleph.se>
References: <000c01ce7ace$027c3830$0774a890$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNTs8tnr=_X9H62EDBdvaiU137rcWP6j_k4UKuL+guMyLg@mail.gmail.com>
 <003f01ce7b1e$000a6680$001f3380$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNTa3cG_vS3wEcD1rCGwETwZQ2V0uSPeOT=eM3MEoYstuQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <002301ce7b38$fabbcdc0$f0336940$@rainier66.com>
 <51D9B98B.2050109@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <CAAc1gFgr7x8NyewbntYcOArJZB5bkGzBgdz3+vSYiLK0_GauUw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jul 7, 2013 at 2:55 PM, Anders Sandberg <anders at aleph.se> wrote:

That might well be very optimistic. But as the price
> comes down exponentially, people find uses for the data (whether sane or
> crazy uses) we should expect an exponential increase in people getting it -
> and as cellphones have demonstrated, even very high tech can, if packaged
> well, be spread in fairly poor societies. Personal genomics looks like it
> could do that (send in samples, get access to results - no need for local
> hightech infrastructure). So at some point we are going to see a genomics
> transition as a sizeable fraction gets sequenced.

### Personal genomics is key to two issues of importance to most
humans: Reproductive success and health. While the latter might appear
at first glance more important, I would expect that the former might
actually by a major driver of adoption in many cultures. The worry
that the offspring of one's wife might have been sired by another man
is very prevalent for example among the Yanomamo, and is responsible
for a lot of the violence described among this tribe. A simple buccal
swab might assuage such fears, or act as a potent deterrent.

BTW, I've been reading Napoleon Chagnon's "Noble Savages" recently,
quite an interesting book, at least the first half, recommended with
minor reservations.

Rafal


From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Mon Jul  8 04:14:07 2013
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2013 00:14:07 -0400
Subject: [ExI] 23andSingularity
In-Reply-To: <004a01ce7b21$1dc7be90$59573bb0$@rainier66.com>
References: <000c01ce7ace$027c3830$0774a890$@rainier66.com>
 <CAOJFdbKFzVm=7=jK3nhXaAvayDWAubQjghSs8GVy6YucWN0V5w@mail.gmail.com>
 <004a01ce7b21$1dc7be90$59573bb0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAAc1gFhfObVT_Okhmu=dtU-r5+ht=V5nJ7wz9OTeYd=wtgYmsA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jul 7, 2013 at 10:48 AM, spike <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:
>
> Ja, so here's my idea, a remarkably simple one.  23andMe has all these
> genetic profiles which they sell to medical insurance companies which allow
> the companies to cherry pick the most profitable profiles, even to include
> some clients which never had their DNA tested.  Reasoning: some of our most
> expensive diseases are quite unlikely in an offspring if neither parent has
> the genetic marker.  23andMe could infer the offspring are at a low risk,
> sell the info to insurance companies for profit.
>
> OK, so now we can do the same trick, only better.  We can figure out which
> diseases we are genetically predisposed to escape, then use that info to get
> the insurance companies to offer us discounts.  That way, we win on health
> insurance costs if we won the genome lottery.
>
> Here's another one for you.  Suppose there is some known disease which is
> associated with two particular markers.  If you have one of the markers, you
> have about a 2x risk, if you have both, about an 8x risk.  The insurance
> company wants to charge you a premium for that risk.  You, being an internet
> hipster, look into that particular disease and learn that while true, your
> having both markers makes you 8x more at risk, you also need to compensate
> by noting your current age.  If the condition in question ordinarily
> presents at age 10 to 15, then by age 50, if one still shows no signs of the
> disease, the likelihood is low.
>
> In some cases, such as scoliosis, once the patient is finished growing,
> there is no further risk of developing the condition.  It is too easy to
> imagine insurance companies charging a fully grown adult client a premium
> for having a genetic predisposition to scoliosis.  The hip patient could use
> knowledge to fight back and get a better deal.
>
> We could set up a system where we are professional advocates for patients
> dealing with insurance companies.  It would be like an accountant hired by a
> client to deal with the IRS, only the insurance company doesn't have the
> authority to have you thrown in prison indefinitely.  A new industry can
> emerge here.

### The use of genetic information for insurance purposes is already
illegal in the US. For some reasons, the current crop of leftists
despise genetics, and I expect that they will expend a considerable
amount of effort to thwart the activities you describe above.

Actually, I wonder what is their problem? Obviously, the ability to
foresee life outcomes (health, income, crime), and personal
characteristics (honesty, psychopathy) based on genetic testing would
be highly useful on both an individual and a societal level, since it
would allow discrimination between actions that differ in their
efficiency. For example, gamete trading as well as zygote choice could
be dramatically better in terms of generating healthy offspring.
Hiring for high-trust, high-impact jobs (judge, senator, CEO, mayor)
could more efficiently exclude dangerous bets. In the not-too-distant
future, personal genomics could eventually lead to eugenic
improvement....oops, I just realized I used two taboo words in one
paragraph, I'd better end here...

Puzzling.

Rafal


From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Jul  8 04:58:10 2013
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike)
Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2013 21:58:10 -0700
Subject: [ExI] 23andSingularity
In-Reply-To: <CAAc1gFhfObVT_Okhmu=dtU-r5+ht=V5nJ7wz9OTeYd=wtgYmsA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <000c01ce7ace$027c3830$0774a890$@rainier66.com>
 <CAOJFdbKFzVm=7=jK3nhXaAvayDWAubQjghSs8GVy6YucWN0V5w@mail.gmail.com>
 <004a01ce7b21$1dc7be90$59573bb0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAAc1gFhfObVT_Okhmu=dtU-r5+ht=V5nJ7wz9OTeYd=wtgYmsA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <001d01ce7b97$c113c6e0$433b54a0$@rainier66.com>

>... On Behalf Of Rafal Smigrodzki
Subject: Re: [ExI] 23andSingularity

On Sun, Jul 7, 2013 at 10:48 AM, spike <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:
>
>>... Ja, so here's my idea, a remarkably simple one.  23andMe has all these

> genetic profiles which they sell to medical insurance companies which 
> allow the companies to cherry pick the most profitable profiles, even 
> to include some clients which never had their DNA tested... A new industry
can emerge here.  spike

>...### The use of genetic information for insurance purposes is already
illegal in the US. For some reasons, the current crop of leftists despise
genetics, and I expect that they will expend a considerable amount of effort
to thwart the activities you describe above... Rafal

OK so let me express a related idea.  Rafal, since you are a doctor, you
have already forgotten more about Obama-care than I will ever know, but as I
understand it, proles are required to either purchase health insurance or
pay a fine.  If you choose to go the pay-the-fine route, you still don't
have health insurance.  For the young and healthy crowd, it is likely better
to go ahead and pay the fine, and accept the risk, however there is another
possibility here.

Suppose there was a business such as 23andMe, which one can submit DNA
samples anonymously (you aren't required to tell 23 who you are.)  Then you
find out if there are any known genetic markers which would compel you to
buy health insurance.  If not, pay the fine.  If so, buy the
government-sponsored health insurance.  I can even imagine some
crowd-sourced science based research group which would review your 23
results and advise you on what are your risks and how much it is likely to
cost if you get the condition for which you have one or two markers, then
advise you whether you should pay the fine or buy the insurance.

If this becomes popular, I can easily imagine 23andMe will be shut down by
some bogus IRS raid.

If some advisory group were to form, good chance the IRS would find out and
raid it.  If we argue there is no law against advising proles on their
health risks from their DNA profile, that doesn't actually matter with the
IRS: the rules don't apply to that outfit.

spike





From eugen at leitl.org  Mon Jul  8 06:30:44 2013
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2013 08:30:44 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Snowden Der Spiegel Interview
Message-ID: <20130708063044.GF24217@leitl.org>


http://cryptome.org/2013/07/snowden-spiegel-13-0707-en.htm

7 July 2013

Snowden Der Spiegel Interview

Article in German: http://cryptome.org/2013/07/snowden-spiegel-13-0707.pdf

Related article in German:
http://cryptome.org/2013/07/snowden-spiegel-13-0707-2.pdf

English translation provided by A: http://pastebin.com/zVC14byX

Translation of Der Spiegel Magazine article, July 7, 2013:

Just before Edward Snowden became a world famous whistleblower, he answered
an extensive catalog of questions. These came from, amongst others, Jacob
Appelbaum, 30, a developer of encryption and security software. Appelbaum
educates international human rights groups and journalists on how to work
with the Internet in safe and anonymous way.

He became more publicly know in 2010, when he represented WikiLeaks founder
Julian Assange speaking at a hacker conference in New York. Along with
Assange and other co-authors he has recently published the interview
recording "Cypherpunks: Freedom and the Future of the Internet." [Link by
Cryptome.]

In the course of investigations into the WikiLeaks disclosures, Appelbaum
came to the attention of American authorities, who demanded companies such as
Twitter and Google to divulge his accounts. He himself describes his attitude
to WikiLeaks as "ambivalent" - and describes below how it came about that he
was able to ask Snowden these questions.

In mid-May I was contacted by the documentary-maker Laura Poitras. She told
me, that at this time she was in contact with an anonymous NSA source, which
had consented to be interviewed by her.

She put together questions and asked me to contribute questions. This was,
among other reasons, to determine whether she was really dealing with a NSA
whistleblower. We sent our questions via encrypted e-mails. I did not know
that the interlocutor was Edward Snowden until he revealed himself as such in
public in Hong Kong. He did not know who I was. I had expected that he was
someone in his sixties.

The following is an excerpt from a extensive interview which dealt with
further points, many of them technical in nature. Some of the questions now
appear in a different order to understand the context.

The discussion focused almost exclusively on the activities of the National
Security Agency. It is important to know that these questions were not asked
as relating to the events of the past week or the last month. They were
entirely asked without any unrest, since, at that point, Snowden was still in
Hawaii.

At a later stage I was again in direct contact with Snowden, at which time I
also revealed my own my identity. He told me then that he gave consent to
publish his statements.

+++++

Question: What is the mission of the National Security Agency (NSA) - and how
is their job in accordance with the law?

Snowden: It is the mission of the NSA, to be aware of anything of importance
going on outside of the United States. This is a considerable task, and the
people there are convinced that not knowing everything about everyone could
lead to some existential crisis. So, at some point, you believe it's all
right to bend the rules a little. Then, if people hate it that you can bend
the rules, it suddenly becomes vital even to break them.

Question: Are German authorities or politicians involved in the monitoring
system ?

Snowden: Yes of course. They (the NSA people -- ed.) are in cahoots with the
Germans, as well as with the most other Western countries. We (in the U.S.
intelligence apparatus -- ed.) warn the others, when someone we want to
catch, uses one of their airports - and they then deliver them to us. The
information on this, we can for example pull off of the monitored mobile
phone of a suspected hacker?s girlfriend -- who used it in an entirely
different country which has nothing to do with the case. The other
authorities do not ask us where we got the leads, and we do not ask them
anything either. That way, they can protect their political staff from any
backlash if it came out how massive the global violation of people?s privacy
is.

Question: But now as details of this system are revealed, who will be brought
before a court over this?

Snowden: Before U.S. courts? You're not serious, are you? When the last large
wiretapping scandal was investigated - the interception without a court
order, which concerned millions of communications - that should really have
led to the longest prison sentences in world history. However, then our
highest representatives simply stopped the investigation. The question, who
is to be accused, is theoretical, if the laws themselves are not respected.
Laws are meant for people like you or me - but not for them.

Question: Does the NSA cooperate with other states like Israel?

Snowden: Yes, all the time. The NSA has a large section for that, called the
FAD - Foreign Affairs Directorate.

Question: Did the NSA help to write the Stuxnet program? (the malicious
program used against the Iranian nuclear facilities -- ed.)

Snowden: The NSA and Israel wrote Stuxnet together.

Question: What are the major monitoring programs active today, and how do
international partners help the NSA?

Snowden: The partners in the "Five Eyes" (behind which are hidden the secret
services of the Americans, the British, the Australians, New Zealanders and
Canadians -- ed.) sometimes go even further than the NSA people themselves.
Take the Tempora program of the British intelligence GCHQ for instance.
Tempora is the first "I save everything" approach ("Full take") in the
intelligence world. It sucks in all data, no matter what it is, and which
rights are violated by it. This buffered storage allows for subsequent
monitoring; not a single bit escapes. Right now, the system is capable of
saving three days? worth of traffic, but that will be optimized. Three days
may perhaps not sound like a lot, but it's not just about connection
metadata. "Full take" means that the system saves everything. If you send a
data packet and if makes its way through the UK, we will get it. If you
download anything, and the server is in the UK, then we get it. And if the
data about your sick daughter is processed through a London call center, then
... Oh, I think you have understood.

Question: Can anyone escape?

Snowden: Well, if you had the choice, you should never send information over
British lines or British servers. Even the Queen?s selfies with her
lifeguards would be recorded, if they existed.

Question: Do the NSA and its partners apply some kind of wide dragnet method
to intercept phone calls, texts and data?

Snowden: Yes, but how much they can record, depends on the capabilities of
the respective taps. Some data is held to be more worthwhile, and can
therefore be recorded more frequently. But all this is rather a problem with
foreign tapping nodes, less with those of the U.S. This makes the monitoring
in their own territory so terrifying. The NSA?s options are practically
limitless - in terms of computing power, space or cooling capacity for the
computers.

Question: The NSA is building a new data center in Utah. What is it for?

Snowden: These are the new mass data storage facilities.

Question: For how long will the information there be stored?

Snowden: Right now it is still so, that the full text of collected material
ages very quickly, within a few days, especially given its enormous amount.
Unless an analyst marked a target or a particular communication. In that case
the communication is saved for all eternity, one always get an authorization
for that anyway. The metadata ages less quickly. The NSA at least wants all
metadata to be stored forever. Often the metadata is more valuable than the
contents of the communication, because in most cases, one can retrieve the
content, if there is metadata. And if not, you mark all future communications
that fits this metadata and is of interest, so that henceforth it will be
recorded completely. The metadata tells you what you actually want from the
broader stream.

Question: Do private companies help the NSA?

Snowden: Yes. But it's hard to prove that. The names of the cooperating
telecom companies are the crown jewels of the NSA... Generally you can say
that multinationals with headquarters in the USA should not be trusted until
they prove otherwise. This is unfortunate, because these companies have the
ability to deliver the world's best and most reliable services - if they
wanted to. To facilitate this, civil rights movements should now use these
revelations as a driving force. The companies should write enforceable
clauses into their terms, guaranteeing their clients that they are not being
spied on. And they should include technical guarantees. If you could move
even a single company to do such a thing, it would improve the security of
global communications. And when this appears to not be feasible, you should
consider starting one such company yourself.

Question: Are there companies that refuse to to cooperate with the NSA?

Snowden: Yes, but I know nothing of a corresponding list that would prove
this. However, there would surely be fewer companies of this type if the
companies working with the NSA would be punished by the customer. That should
be the highest priority of all computer users who believe in the freedom of
thoughts.

Question: What are the sites you should beware, if you do not want to become
targeted by the NSA?

Snowden: Normally one is marked as a target because of a Facebook profile or
because of your emails. The only place which I personally know where you can
become a target without this specific labeling, are jihadist forums.

Question: What happens if the NSA has a user in its sights?

Snowden: The target person is completely monitored. An analyst will get a
daily report about what has changed in the computer system of the targeted
person. There will also be... packages with certain data which the automatic
analysis systems have not understood, and so on. The analyst can then decide
what he wants to do - the computer of the target person does not belong to
them anymore, it then more or less belongs to the U.S. government.




From anders at aleph.se  Mon Jul  8 08:16:16 2013
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2013 09:16:16 +0100
Subject: [ExI] 23andSingularity
In-Reply-To: <CAAc1gFhfObVT_Okhmu=dtU-r5+ht=V5nJ7wz9OTeYd=wtgYmsA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <000c01ce7ace$027c3830$0774a890$@rainier66.com>
 <CAOJFdbKFzVm=7=jK3nhXaAvayDWAubQjghSs8GVy6YucWN0V5w@mail.gmail.com>
 <004a01ce7b21$1dc7be90$59573bb0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAAc1gFhfObVT_Okhmu=dtU-r5+ht=V5nJ7wz9OTeYd=wtgYmsA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <51DA7550.2060909@aleph.se>

The discovery of illegitimacy is actually an interesting example of the 
"transparency revolution" that will deeply affect traditional societies. 
I have usually looked at it in terms of gadgets suddenly shifting 
societal environments, but this is potentially a big deal: ancestry and 
illegitimacy is often a *very* big deal in traditional societies, and 
when the cat is out of the bag turbulence will result. In the long run 
people will no doubt learn to tolerate some past peccadilloes, but that 
is the long run. In the short run there will be lots of cases where 
fairly recent illegitimacy will come to light and cause trouble, 
especially in societies with strong honour, family and fidelity 
traditions. Exactly how it will play out is another matter - widespread 
domestic violence or triggering inter-family conflicts seem likely, but 
do not underestimate second order effects as societies try to self-regulate.


On 2013-07-08 05:14, Rafal Smigrodzki wrote:
> ### The use of genetic information for insurance purposes is already 
> illegal in the US. For some reasons, the current crop of leftists 
> despise genetics, and I expect that they will expend a considerable 
> amount of effort to thwart the activities you describe above. 
> Actually, I wonder what is their problem?

The left has always had a problem with genetics since it seems to say 
that some life outcomes are not due to your choices or the social 
environment, but are simply results of unchanging parts of you. This is 
why it was more or less banned in the Soviet union, and why sociobiology 
was hugely controversial in the 70s.

> Obviously, the ability to foresee life outcomes (health, income, 
> crime), and personal characteristics (honesty, psychopathy) based on 
> genetic testing would be highly useful on both an individual and a 
> societal level, since it would allow discrimination between actions 
> that differ in their efficiency. For example, gamete trading as well 
> as zygote choice could be dramatically better in terms of generating 
> healthy offspring. Hiring for high-trust, high-impact jobs (judge, 
> senator, CEO, mayor) could more efficiently exclude dangerous bets. 

Spoken like a true libertarian - efficiency and freedom are good, no 
matter what. Why are all the other ideology kids so angry?

> In the not-too-distant future, personal genomics could eventually lead 
> to eugenic improvement....oops, I just realized I used two taboo words 
> in one paragraph, I'd better end here... Puzzling.

Now, eugenics was actually one part of genetics the left *did* embrace 
to some extent. At least social democrats were utilitarian and 
collectivist enough to think that selecting on the population level was 
a good idea. Hence things like the Scandinavian sterilization laws (the 
last Swedish one was repealed *this year* - now transsexuals do not have 
to sterilize themselves).

The problem with personal genomics and insurance is price discrimination 
(if everybody has the same information) that will be bad for genetically 
unlucky people. I think this can be solved by having a genetic insurance 
before the test: if it shows that you are unlucky the insurance will pay 
for the higher premiums; unfortunately this requires developing a market 
for such insurance, and that requires data and some experience.

-- 
Dr Anders Sandberg
Future of Humanity Institute
Oxford Martin School
Oxford University



From eugen at leitl.org  Mon Jul  8 09:37:20 2013
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2013 11:37:20 +0200
Subject: [ExI] 23andSingularity
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNTa3cG_vS3wEcD1rCGwETwZQ2V0uSPeOT=eM3MEoYstuQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <000c01ce7ace$027c3830$0774a890$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNTs8tnr=_X9H62EDBdvaiU137rcWP6j_k4UKuL+guMyLg@mail.gmail.com>
 <003f01ce7b1e$000a6680$001f3380$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNTa3cG_vS3wEcD1rCGwETwZQ2V0uSPeOT=eM3MEoYstuQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20130708093720.GR24217@leitl.org>

On Sun, Jul 07, 2013 at 09:09:06AM -0700, Adrian Tymes wrote:

> According to the CIA World Factbook, there were only 2.1 billion Internet
> users in 2010.

Smartphones (but not computers) are widespread in Africa and
Asia. I would expect that eventually/rather soon some 4-5 GPeople
will be "online" (by way of a mobile device with global
TCP/IP connectivity).
 
> The rest of the world lives, breathes, eats, labors...but you're right,
> even cumulatively their effect on the world is far less than those online.
> A large part of this is that those online also happen to be those with
> resources, those who are better educated, and so on, and of course those
> factors have been correlated with world impact for ages.
> 
> So, that does account for the majority of humanity.  But even among the 2.1
> billion who are online, how many of them choose not to post things you
> could track them down by?


From eugen at leitl.org  Mon Jul  8 11:53:09 2013
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2013 13:53:09 +0200
Subject: [ExI] [liberationtech] An interview with Snowden and more in Der
	Spiegel
Message-ID: <20130708115309.GC24217@leitl.org>

----- Forwarded message from Jacob Appelbaum <jacob at appelbaum.net> -----

Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2013 11:36:21 +0000
From: Jacob Appelbaum <jacob at appelbaum.net>
To: liberationtech <liberationtech at lists.stanford.edu>
Subject: [liberationtech] An interview with Snowden and more in Der Spiegel
Reply-To: liberationtech <liberationtech at lists.stanford.edu>

Hi,

What we're seeing in Der Spiegel, The Guardian, Washington Post and
other select publications is the birth of new threat models - not just
for activists but for all of civil society, parliamentarians, companies
and more. This is a threat model that "many have known" and yet at the
same time, there is clearly new stuff. For one - we're seeing
confirmations of things that have been denied in public - we're also
learning the names of things, which now made public, may be FOIA'ed by
name as well as pushing for disclosures. This is where we'll see if
America will shine - when the information comes out, will we be able to
use our democratic process to turn this disaster around? I'd like to
think so - that is why I worked on these pieces - hope is not lost.
Though hope alone is not a strategy.

I think this may be of interest to people on the list:

  http://www.spiegel.de/spiegel/index-7028.html

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/snowden-enthuellung-verbindung-zur-nsa-bringt-bnd-in-erklaerungsnot-a-909884.html

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/us-lauschangriff-opposition-macht-druck-auf-merkel-a-909871.html

For non-German speakers I suggest the following English links:

  http://www.spiegel.de/international/topic/whistle_blowers/

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/whistleblower-snowden-claims-german-intelligence-in-bed-with-nsa-a-909904.html

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/edward-snowden-accuses-germany-of-aiding-nsa-in-spying-efforts-a-909847.html

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/snowden-reveals-how-gchq-in-britain-soaks-up-mass-internet-data-a-909852.htmlv

My interview with Snowden is available as a leaked pdf on cryptome in
German:

  http://cryptome.org/2013/07/snowden-spiegel-13-0707-en.htm
  http://cryptome.org/2013/07/snowden-spiegel-13-0707.pdf
  http://cryptome.org/2013/07/snowden-spiegel-13-0707-2.pdf

The English original will be released this week.

Last week's article is also very important:


http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/secret-documents-nsa-targeted-germany-and-eu-buildings-a-908609.html

This is also probably of great interest to people on the list:


http://oglobo.globo.com/infograficos/volume-rastreamento-governo-americano/

http://jaraparilla.blogspot.com/2013/07/nsa-surveillance-of-australia-exposed.html

http://www.theage.com.au/world/snowden-reveals-australias-links-to-us-spy-web-20130708-2plyg.html

Welcome to the Grim Meathook Future, Citizens! Lets turn this ship around!

All the best,
Jacob
--
Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing moderator at companys at stanford.edu or changing your settings at https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech

----- End forwarded message -----
-- 
Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://ativel.com http://postbiota.org
AC894EC5: 38A5 5F46 A4FF 59B8 336B  47EE F46E 3489 AC89 4EC5


From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Mon Jul  8 15:24:13 2013
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2013 17:24:13 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Who are the libertarians?
In-Reply-To: <CAL+RtPeupR6Q-P7D_RZ+tMLYFWw9izoHTTWN=FXazYJkFyH9Mg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAc1gFhFu95QYO-NY=+BKCqXwF4wV=iFf=JBBk1fw_dYgN5n4w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL+RtPeupR6Q-P7D_RZ+tMLYFWw9izoHTTWN=FXazYJkFyH9Mg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a7_sznMS8hk728xxSY9=eFzkcPaVq9=9rME0q_526pqpQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 1 July 2013 20:30, Giovanni Santostasi <gsantostasi at gmail.com> wrote:

> Many transhumanist now are closer to liberal views than libertarian ones.
>

Or to neither one.

I have always found very narrow and biased, not to say parochial, the US
idea that "libertarians" and "liberals" are the two universal, eternal
archetypes splitting humanity at a political, ethical, anthropological
level.

This reminds me of an Irish joke, where a bloke introduces his Thai
girlfriend to his grandmother, and she whispers on the side "Why, is she
catholic or protestant?". "But, Grandma, she is a Buddhist!". "OK, fine,
but a catholic Buddhist or a protestant Buddhist?". :-D
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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Mon Jul  8 15:26:18 2013
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2013 17:26:18 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Who are the libertarians?
In-Reply-To: <CANSO=1=f9y0qOd2ESzExJRRQhKrOhNBMU2++bjPtrYGnMGaEqQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAc1gFhFu95QYO-NY=+BKCqXwF4wV=iFf=JBBk1fw_dYgN5n4w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL+RtPeupR6Q-P7D_RZ+tMLYFWw9izoHTTWN=FXazYJkFyH9Mg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANSO=1=f9y0qOd2ESzExJRRQhKrOhNBMU2++bjPtrYGnMGaEqQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a51X1rjpKAVg=t_ykfLKKaTFAzWODEiEJSa2h-jSmtfoQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 1 July 2013 21:15, Eugenio Mart?nez <rolandodegilead at gmail.com> wrote:

> I think that liberal, in the european sense, is not compatible with
> transhumanism, nor with any branch of humanism.
>

I sincerely doubt that any branch of humanism (other than in the XIV
century sense) is really compatible with transhumanism, for that matter.

A posthumanist cultural shift is definitely a requirement IMHO for any
posthuman change.

--
Stefano Vaj
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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Mon Jul  8 15:32:37 2013
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2013 17:32:37 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Who are the libertarians?
In-Reply-To: <CANSO=1mLsffMGoCD0-5ixu0LAbJbVd2CVrOjeZeaea3eRs1kww@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAc1gFhFu95QYO-NY=+BKCqXwF4wV=iFf=JBBk1fw_dYgN5n4w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL+RtPeupR6Q-P7D_RZ+tMLYFWw9izoHTTWN=FXazYJkFyH9Mg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANSO=1=f9y0qOd2ESzExJRRQhKrOhNBMU2++bjPtrYGnMGaEqQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <51D1FD6D.4060309@aleph.se>
 <CANSO=1mLsffMGoCD0-5ixu0LAbJbVd2CVrOjeZeaea3eRs1kww@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a5W50TrBzqWOtQ5SrBCGP_ybXtNYax_Ud4jWGHo=aCbGA@mail.gmail.com>

On 2 July 2013 03:43, Eugenio Mart?nez <rolandodegilead at gmail.com> wrote:

> I am thinking on the liberalism from Europe (The neocon or
> ultracapitalist), which is absolutely incompatible and that is not the same
> that the neocons in USA. A paradigmatic example.
>

The European liberal tradition is "ultracapitalist" in more than one sense,
but it is hardly neocon, the "neo" implying authoritarian policies, a
strong State intervention in favour of strategic industrial sectors and
cartels, a strict political control of international trade (see the
application of embargoes to "rogue states" and limitations to technology
exports), etc.

--
Stefano Vaj
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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Mon Jul  8 15:35:06 2013
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2013 17:35:06 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Who are the libertarians?
In-Reply-To: <CAL+RtPe80_7p-Cc+pJN13y4yhmBKn2nbS57AhzsKOYivD+-B0g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAc1gFhFu95QYO-NY=+BKCqXwF4wV=iFf=JBBk1fw_dYgN5n4w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL+RtPeupR6Q-P7D_RZ+tMLYFWw9izoHTTWN=FXazYJkFyH9Mg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANSO=1=f9y0qOd2ESzExJRRQhKrOhNBMU2++bjPtrYGnMGaEqQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <51D1FD6D.4060309@aleph.se>
 <CANSO=1mLsffMGoCD0-5ixu0LAbJbVd2CVrOjeZeaea3eRs1kww@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL+RtPe80_7p-Cc+pJN13y4yhmBKn2nbS57AhzsKOYivD+-B0g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a6JXa-Q=fR2vucgDFVLz4PZ=CASxV63V=Zg6UMStf1O4Q@mail.gmail.com>

On 2 July 2013 04:34, Giovanni Santostasi <gsantostasi at gmail.com> wrote:

> I think democratic transhumanism is much more likely to succeed by having
> a more general appeal.
> Transhumanism is already accused to be the brainchild of rich and powerful
> elites and having at its core heartless policies and ideas like eugenic.
>

Eugenic policies have been widely popular in democratic countries during
the first half of  the XX century, and nowhere more than in the US.

Whatever one may think of eugenics, I fail to see the connection.

--
Stefano Vaj
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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Mon Jul  8 15:41:44 2013
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2013 17:41:44 +0200
Subject: [ExI] head transplants
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNQ2BHyt8gf5U5dAg0-VyRtD+Zjwzd6XqkyWazVKoVXfmA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1372707479.19557.YahooMailNeo@web121206.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CALAdGNQ2BHyt8gf5U5dAg0-VyRtD+Zjwzd6XqkyWazVKoVXfmA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a4mpygbfFOGY-d3QpjbXoHByiFqquUEca=26ycQrDZGzA@mail.gmail.com>

On 3 July 2013 08:49, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:

> I'll believe it's "now possible" when the first successful head
> transplant in animals, with spinal cord reattachment, has
> been accomplished.
>

It *has* been accomplished. The prob is the spinal cord reattachment.
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From gts_2000 at yahoo.com  Mon Jul  8 16:46:53 2013
From: gts_2000 at yahoo.com (Gordon)
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2013 09:46:53 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] head transplants
In-Reply-To: <CAPoR7a4mpygbfFOGY-d3QpjbXoHByiFqquUEca=26ycQrDZGzA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1372707479.19557.YahooMailNeo@web121206.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CALAdGNQ2BHyt8gf5U5dAg0-VyRtD+Zjwzd6XqkyWazVKoVXfmA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a4mpygbfFOGY-d3QpjbXoHByiFqquUEca=26ycQrDZGzA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1373302013.85754.YahooMailNeo@web121206.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

Stefano wrote:



On 3 July 2013 08:49, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:

I'll believe it's "now possible" when the first successful head
>transplant in animals, with spinal cord reattachment, has
>been accomplished.? 
>

>It *has* been accomplished. The prob is the spinal cord reattachment.

If and when they become possible, I think they should be called body transplants as opposed to head transplants. If my doctor told me he wanted to attach a donor body to my head, I would consider it. If he wanted to attach a donor head to my body, I would definitely seek a second opinion.

Gordon
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From pharos at gmail.com  Mon Jul  8 18:09:14 2013
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2013 19:09:14 +0100
Subject: [ExI] head transplants
In-Reply-To: <1373302013.85754.YahooMailNeo@web121206.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <1372707479.19557.YahooMailNeo@web121206.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CALAdGNQ2BHyt8gf5U5dAg0-VyRtD+Zjwzd6XqkyWazVKoVXfmA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a4mpygbfFOGY-d3QpjbXoHByiFqquUEca=26ycQrDZGzA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1373302013.85754.YahooMailNeo@web121206.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armiFihPXkcJm=5LDvjMBDR4m86rQeeVV9HauU5x-AMkA-A@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jul 8, 2013 at 5:46 PM, Gordon  wrote:
> If and when they become possible, I think they should be called body
> transplants as opposed to head transplants. If my doctor told me he wanted
> to attach a donor body to my head, I would consider it. If he wanted to
> attach a donor head to my body, I would definitely seek a second opinion.
>
>

I think they will be called body transplants.
It should become possible to have a standard socket fitted to every body neck.
Then you could swap bodies depending on what you wanted to do.
Running a marathon, scuba swimming, high altitude work, competitive sports......
Bodies develop muscle memory so that movements become instinctive.

It is also useful to swap if a body gets badly injured.

Amputees already do this by fitting special blades for running, etc.


BillK


From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Jul  8 18:13:37 2013
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike)
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2013 11:13:37 -0700
Subject: [ExI] head transplants
In-Reply-To: <1373302013.85754.YahooMailNeo@web121206.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <1372707479.19557.YahooMailNeo@web121206.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CALAdGNQ2BHyt8gf5U5dAg0-VyRtD+Zjwzd6XqkyWazVKoVXfmA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a4mpygbfFOGY-d3QpjbXoHByiFqquUEca=26ycQrDZGzA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1373302013.85754.YahooMailNeo@web121206.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <006301ce7c06$dfc01ac0$9f405040$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Gordon



>.If and when they become possible, I think they should be called body
transplants as opposed to head transplants. If my doctor told me he wanted
to attach a donor body to my head, I would consider it. If he wanted to
attach a donor head to my body, I would definitely seek a second opinion.
Gordon

 

 

Gordon, in the context of this question, we now need to define the term "my"
in reference to both bodies and both heads.  

 

Florida has a lot of excellent motorcycle weather and no helmet
requirements.  That results in a number of healthy young bodies with the
frontal lobes destroyed by impact with speeding Detroits or pavement, or
both.  By cheerful coincidence, Florida also has plenty of older, saner and
far more wealthy citizenry with healthy brains but some terminal condition
in the body, including total paralysis. 

 

If the family of the former biker agrees, it seems to me ethically
acceptable in the case of a patient who is permanently unconscious and on
life support and the other patient, a wealthy quadriplegic, to switch the
heads, so that the thinking patient can have a healthy, even if still
paralyzed body, and the permanently vegetative patient can take the fatally
flawed one and continue "life" on mechanical support.

 

spike

 

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From pharos at gmail.com  Mon Jul  8 18:31:00 2013
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2013 19:31:00 +0100
Subject: [ExI] head transplants
In-Reply-To: <006301ce7c06$dfc01ac0$9f405040$@rainier66.com>
References: <1372707479.19557.YahooMailNeo@web121206.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CALAdGNQ2BHyt8gf5U5dAg0-VyRtD+Zjwzd6XqkyWazVKoVXfmA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a4mpygbfFOGY-d3QpjbXoHByiFqquUEca=26ycQrDZGzA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1373302013.85754.YahooMailNeo@web121206.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <006301ce7c06$dfc01ac0$9f405040$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armjhAhDX6RCwO6bAhezPjhFVfKgYkOBLeN1uJe29oW-cvA@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jul 8, 2013 at 7:13 PM, spike  wrote:
> Gordon, in the context of this question, we now need to define the term ?my?
> in reference to both bodies and both heads.
>
<snip>
> If the family of the former biker agrees, it seems to me ethically
> acceptable in the case of a patient who is permanently unconscious and on
> life support and the other patient, a wealthy quadriplegic, to switch the
> heads, so that the thinking patient can have a healthy, even if still
> paralyzed body, and the permanently vegetative patient can take the fatally
> flawed one and continue ?life? on mechanical support.
>
>


Agreed. But what happens to your 23and me DNA tracing?


BillK



From atymes at gmail.com  Mon Jul  8 19:30:10 2013
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2013 12:30:10 -0700
Subject: [ExI] head transplants
In-Reply-To: <CAPoR7a4mpygbfFOGY-d3QpjbXoHByiFqquUEca=26ycQrDZGzA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1372707479.19557.YahooMailNeo@web121206.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CALAdGNQ2BHyt8gf5U5dAg0-VyRtD+Zjwzd6XqkyWazVKoVXfmA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a4mpygbfFOGY-d3QpjbXoHByiFqquUEca=26ycQrDZGzA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNSd1eovS8zYLVu9n7=ubKYhShqu2Dn4KY210bv1MnAerA@mail.gmail.com>

On Jul 8, 2013 8:42 AM, "Stefano Vaj" <stefano.vaj at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 3 July 2013 08:49, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I'll believe it's "now possible" when the first successful head
>> transplant in animals, with spinal cord reattachment, has
>> been accomplished.
>
> It *has* been accomplished. The prob is the spinal cord reattachment.

That's why I specified "with spinal cord reattachment".
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From gts_2000 at yahoo.com  Mon Jul  8 19:19:46 2013
From: gts_2000 at yahoo.com (Gordon)
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2013 12:19:46 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] head transplants
In-Reply-To: <006301ce7c06$dfc01ac0$9f405040$@rainier66.com>
References: <1372707479.19557.YahooMailNeo@web121206.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CALAdGNQ2BHyt8gf5U5dAg0-VyRtD+Zjwzd6XqkyWazVKoVXfmA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a4mpygbfFOGY-d3QpjbXoHByiFqquUEca=26ycQrDZGzA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1373302013.85754.YahooMailNeo@web121206.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <006301ce7c06$dfc01ac0$9f405040$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <1373311186.41961.YahooMailNeo@web121202.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

Spike,

>>?If and when they become possible, I think they should be called body transplants as opposed to head transplants. If my doctor told me he wanted to attach a donor body to my head, I would consider it. If he wanted to attach a donor head to my body, I would definitely seek a second opinion.? Gordon
?
?
> Gordon, in the context of this question, we now need to define the term ?my? in reference to both bodies and both heads....? 
? 

If we call it a head transplant instead of a body transplant then it is the only kind of transplant in which the recipient 
will never know of his good fortune. I can know that I received a new body, but I cannot know that I received a new head. 

Gordon
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From odellhuff2 at gmail.com  Mon Jul  8 19:36:51 2013
From: odellhuff2 at gmail.com (Odell Huff)
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2013 15:36:51 -0400
Subject: [ExI] head transplants
In-Reply-To: <1373311186.41961.YahooMailNeo@web121202.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <1372707479.19557.YahooMailNeo@web121206.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CALAdGNQ2BHyt8gf5U5dAg0-VyRtD+Zjwzd6XqkyWazVKoVXfmA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a4mpygbfFOGY-d3QpjbXoHByiFqquUEca=26ycQrDZGzA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1373302013.85754.YahooMailNeo@web121206.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <006301ce7c06$dfc01ac0$9f405040$@rainier66.com>
 <1373311186.41961.YahooMailNeo@web121202.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CACsUujWGhM4GFLsOFivvxQSwQ+QcVFVYzY9csb_ASps9PQCT_Q@mail.gmail.com>

He would need his donor head checked!


On Mon, Jul 8, 2013 at 3:19 PM, Gordon <gts_2000 at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Spike,
>
> >>?If and when they become possible, I think they should be called body
> transplants as opposed to head transplants. If my doctor told me he wanted
> to attach a donor body to my head, I would consider it. If he wanted to
> attach a donor head to my body, I would definitely seek a second opinion.
> Gordon
>
>
> > Gordon, in the context of this question, we now need to define the term
> ?my? in reference to both bodies and both heads....
>
>
> If we call it a head transplant instead of a body transplant then it is
> the only kind of transplant in which the recipient will never know of his
> good fortune. I can know that I received a new body, but I cannot know that
> I received a new head.
>
> Gordon
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From msd001 at gmail.com  Tue Jul  9 02:21:46 2013
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2013 22:21:46 -0400
Subject: [ExI] DNA again
Message-ID: <CAOJFdbKTLqTibN+7yuZuNrMOYize96Cxk3hjJHts9EfKWJ=cHA@mail.gmail.com>

http://blogs.ancestry.com/cm/2012/09/12/using-dna-to-trace-michelle-obamas-past/?o_xid=54217&o_lid=54217&o_sch=External+Paid+Media

http://blogs.ancestry.com/cm/2012/10/08/obama-related-to-americas-first-slave/

Really?

I wonder how much backstory and spin the president is able to create

Then again, truth is frequently stranger than fiction.


From spike at rainier66.com  Tue Jul  9 03:56:08 2013
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike)
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2013 20:56:08 -0700
Subject: [ExI] DNA again
In-Reply-To: <CAOJFdbKTLqTibN+7yuZuNrMOYize96Cxk3hjJHts9EfKWJ=cHA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOJFdbKTLqTibN+7yuZuNrMOYize96Cxk3hjJHts9EfKWJ=cHA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <01c201ce7c58$3ef2d130$bcd87390$@rainier66.com>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Mike Dougherty
Sent: Monday, July 08, 2013 7:22 PM
To: ExI chat list
Subject: [ExI] DNA again

http://blogs.ancestry.com/cm/2012/09/12/using-dna-to-trace-michelle-obamas-p
ast/?o_xid=54217&o_lid=54217&o_sch=External+Paid+Media

http://blogs.ancestry.com/cm/2012/10/08/obama-related-to-americas-first-slav
e/

_______________________________________________


Oh dear.  If true this would make me a twelfth cousin twice removed from 44.
Do let us hope there was a mistake somewhere.  Even if true, there are
*plenty* of people descended from John Punch.  There were plenty of
indentured servants who predated slavery in the US, both European and
African.  They often intermarried after their service expired, and went off
into the wilderness of the Appalachians.  This is thought to be the origin
of the Melungeons, a motley tri-racial group which included Africans,
Europeans and Native Americans.

That is where I think my own African and Amerind DNA came from.  That's my
story and I am sticking to it.

Ancestry dot com is an astonishing resource.  That, together with 23andMe,
Facebook and Spokeo gives one seemly supernatural insights.

spike



From spike at rainier66.com  Tue Jul  9 22:46:01 2013
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike)
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2013 15:46:01 -0700
Subject: [ExI] 23andTriangulation
Message-ID: <000601ce7cf6$176dbd70$46493850$@rainier66.com>

 

I am working on an idea that has evolved over the past few days.  If anyone
here is a genealogy hipster and can see that I am reinventing the wheel, do
feel free to offer reproof and correction publicly.  I have thick skin.

 

OK so now we have all this genetic info in a standardized accessible form
from 23andMe.  I am working on an algorithm I call triangulation, which is
where you find two relatives on your list who are both related to you but
not to each other.  Then with either resulting set we should be able to
infer (or narrow down) from that triangulation team the mutual ancestors
from removing the non-mutual ancestors of the non-related pair.  I may be
inventing terminology for concepts that are already well known; do clue me
if you have one. 

 

If we do this iteratively we can create a ring of triads as follows:
Abdulcader, Butthead and Crunk form a triad where Abdulcader and Crunk are
unrelated, Butthead, Crunk, and Doodledum form a triad where Butthead and
Doodledum are unrelated and so on, continue until we figure out a way to
create a triad of Konkleschnortz, Lamedick and Abdulcader, where
Konkleschnortz and Abdulcader are unrelated but both are related to
Lamedick.  Then each person in the ring of 12 people are in three triads
each; in two triads they share DNA with one person and one triad they share
DNA with both.  With that info, we should be able to slice and dice the
ancestors by comparing which names show up where.

 

This seems like something that could have been done a long time ago with
traditional genealogy, but this time we have actual physical evidence, which
would eliminate the risk of errors from misinformation and disinformation.

 

Ideas please: as a test, is there a way to get a dozen of us, or fewer, make
an excel file with columns of 64 numbers, each a random integer between 0
and 255.  We define as sisters those columns which share an average of 32
numbers.  Cousin columns share 16, second cousins 8 and so on.  Next I form
the triads, and see if I can get the algorithm to find which columns are
related to which.  

 

>From that, I should be able to figure out which column is related to which
by triangulation, ja?

 

In real life, I am working on forming my first actual triad with actual DNA
relatives, both of which are dedicated genealogists.  I am having a hell of
a time explaining the concept.

 

If this scheme works, it could cause the phase change Anders warned us
against.  It also points right at the ethical blind spot I mentioned that
started this whole thing: I go into a tailspin as soon as I hold info that
could cause damage, but I shamelessly work on an algorithm that would
blindly triangulate and gigahertzly produce the same information a million
times over.  I work on that algorithm without losing a wink of sleep over
it, knowing that once that algorithm is out there I have zero control over
it.  This is vaguely analogous to those who would work on AI, knowing that
it could escape from the lab and create a completely unpredictable mixture
of good and bad consequences.  

 

Help me, Anders-Wan KeSandberg, you're our only hope.  

 

Actually anyone here is welcome to either instruct on the
rightness/wrongness of even thinking about doing something like this, or
alternately, offer much-needed assistance with the algorithm.

 

spike

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From msd001 at gmail.com  Tue Jul  9 23:33:29 2013
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2013 19:33:29 -0400
Subject: [ExI] 23andTriangulation
In-Reply-To: <000601ce7cf6$176dbd70$46493850$@rainier66.com>
References: <000601ce7cf6$176dbd70$46493850$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAOJFdbLgqXfZP1+9m3uyb5e3j=ajaK07dMieNQJGQtH1FbELYw@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jul 9, 2013 at 6:46 PM, spike <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:
> Ideas please: as a test, is there a way to get a dozen of us, or fewer, make
> an excel file with columns of 64 numbers, each a random integer between 0
> and 255.  We define as sisters those columns which share an average of 32
> numbers.  Cousin columns share 16, second cousins 8 and so on.  Next I form
> the triads, and see if I can get the algorithm to find which columns are
> related to which.
>
> From that, I should be able to figure out which column is related to which
> by triangulation, ja?

That is not what we mean with the term "Genetic Algorithm"  :)

I don't think it would be difficult to implement your matching
algorithm.  I'm not really clear on how you define the triads.  It
sounds like you are going to do that manually until you have enough
practice with it to describe an algorithm.

When I read triangulation from two points, I thought it sounded more
like interpolation - but that's an even weirder term to explain.

I also imagined the classical problem solving strategies you might use
as a model.  I considered bin-filling.  I thought about showing
"relatedness" via a graph, then finding the Eulerian path that shows
how everyone gets to be in this big family.  I thought about the
classic 'family' tree notation, but we don't have obvious/intuitive
tools for matching trees like puzzle pieces to see how they either
overlap/connect.  We also aren't that good at multi-dimensional Venn
diagrams.  Actually, Venn diagrams probably is the easiest way to
display the trivial case of "my [grand]parents" and "your
[grand]parents" intersection has a set-size of 0, 1, ..., n

Since I'm this far down the rabbit hole, let me ask:  Are 64 random
numbers 0-255 going to form sets in a sufficiently realistic way to
model the people you are trying to trace?  I feel like 256/64=4 isn't
a large enough number to prevent everyone from being related to
everyone else - or is that the point you are trying to make?  Does
that scale to 'matching' on the number of data points 23andMe is
reporting from the entire genome?  (All genes/Small#genes=Large Scalar
:: different from toy case)

Back to your excel sheet (the hammer to all your computing nails, eh?)
 Are you interested in gene-values matching in the same ordinal
position?  Are you interested in more than one match in series?  I
don't know what any of this would mean, but I'm sure it'd be
discovered as relevant at some point.

> In real life, I am working on forming my first actual triad with actual DNA
> relatives, both of which are dedicated genealogists.  I am having a hell of
> a time explaining the concept.

I like the puzzle idea.  Sometimes a family is like a bunch of pieces
all locked together.  Sometimes one puzzle piece locks together two
previously disconnected groups of pieces and you can see more clearly
what is the big picture.

> Actually anyone here is welcome to either instruct on the
> rightness/wrongness of even thinking about doing something like this, or
> alternately, offer much-needed assistance with the algorithm.

Have you tried Googledocs spreadsheets yet?  Maybe it doesn't have all
the awesome as Excel, however gdocs are free and can easily be
shared/collaborated upon in realtime.  That's gotta be worth something
in this instance.  :)


From msd001 at gmail.com  Wed Jul 10 01:13:25 2013
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2013 21:13:25 -0400
Subject: [ExI] 23andTriangulation
In-Reply-To: <000601ce7cf6$176dbd70$46493850$@rainier66.com>
References: <000601ce7cf6$176dbd70$46493850$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAOJFdbKOhpMkYrveaLTrrsTWzaLgj6fRfiObj39x8yjNt2MsuQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jul 9, 2013 at 6:46 PM, spike <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:
> If this scheme works, it could cause the phase change Anders warned us
> against.  It also points right at the ethical blind spot I mentioned that
> started this whole thing: I go into a tailspin as soon as I hold info that
> could cause damage, but I shamelessly work on an algorithm that would
> blindly triangulate and gigahertzly produce the same information a million
> times over.  I work on that algorithm without losing a wink of sleep over
> it, knowing that once that algorithm is out there I have zero control over
> it.  This is vaguely analogous to those who would work on AI, knowing that
> it could escape from the lab and create a completely unpredictable mixture
> of good and bad consequences.

shortly after my last post, I saw perhaps one of the coolest
visualization of grungy/non-regular data I've ever seen.

http://www.businessinsider.com/wolframalpha-facebook-analytics-tool-2013-7

spike (& everyone), please try this.  If you haven't already been
drawn into facebook, find someone who has and check it out.  It takes
under 3 minutes to get a Wolfram|Alpha ID if you don't already have
one and you connect via "apps" sharing to facebook - that's it.  You
get a whole lot of visualization power for free.  I think the last
time "computers" have been this entertaining to me was when I
discovered the Mandelbrot viewer  (back then you had to pick a region
and wait an hour for the image to compose, now we have fractal
'zoomers' in effectively real-time)  [i digress]

Do look at the network displays.  Imagine that kind of visualization
of the 23andMe genetic database.

Now tell me what you'd do with it.  (think larger than cherry-picking
the insurance policies)


From spike at rainier66.com  Wed Jul 10 06:07:44 2013
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike)
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2013 23:07:44 -0700
Subject: [ExI] 23andTriangulation
In-Reply-To: <CAOJFdbLgqXfZP1+9m3uyb5e3j=ajaK07dMieNQJGQtH1FbELYw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <000601ce7cf6$176dbd70$46493850$@rainier66.com>
 <CAOJFdbLgqXfZP1+9m3uyb5e3j=ajaK07dMieNQJGQtH1FbELYw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <008a01ce7d33$cd259740$6770c5c0$@rainier66.com>


>... On Behalf Of Mike Dougherty
Sent: Tuesday, July 09, 2013 4:33 PM
To: ExI chat list
Subject: Re: [ExI] 23andTriangulation

On Tue, Jul 9, 2013 at 6:46 PM, spike <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:
> Ideas please: as a test, is there a way to get a dozen of us, or 
> fewer, make an excel file with columns of 64 numbers, each a random 
> integer between 0 and 255.  We define as sisters those columns which 
> share an average of 32 numbers.  Cousin columns share 16, second 
> cousins 8 and so on.  Next I form the triads, and see if I can get the 
> algorithm to find which columns are related to which.
>
> From that, I should be able to figure out which column is related to 
> which by triangulation, ja?

That is not what we mean with the term "Genetic Algorithm"  :)

>...I don't think it would be difficult to implement your matching
algorithm.  I'm not really clear on how you define the triads.  It sounds
like you are going to do that manually until you have enough practice with
it to describe an algorithm...

I realize my description of what I have in mind is terrible.  I think in
equations, not in words, oy.

OK, damn, I won't be able to get this done before vacation, and much of my
vacation is camping, so I won't have internet.

I am being tripped on 23andMe with a remarkable discovery, a pattern that
came more and more clear as I discovered ancestors farther and farther back:
alllll of them are from these little tiny isolated communities.  I can find
not one example of an old-time ancestor from a big city, not one.  I have
been searching for any ancestor from New York or Boston or any of the old
time cities, but all I find are roots in the country, very small towns.
This has deep implications for what I am trying to do.

Some of my earliest known relatives were apparently German soldiers hired by
the British and told they would fight Indians.  Then when they got here,
they found out they would be fighting the colonists.  Plenty of them didn't
want to fight actual white guys.  So when Washington crossed the Delaware
and captured about 1000 Hessians, he suffered almost no losses.  The various
historians have failed to explain an important factor in that very light
casualty count: the Hessians had nothing against American colonists and had
no desire to shoot them.  They really didn't put up much of a fight.

After the battle, General Washington didn't want to feed all those guys, and
the British no longer trusted their hired German guns, since it appeared
their loyalty to their employers was questionable.  So Washington ended up
paroling most of them, after which they went off deep into the woods and
started little communities way back there in western Virginia, Kentucky,
Ohio and such, but it was unclear whether they were still enemies of America
and possibly enemies of the British, so they stayed in closed little remote
communities for a century in some cases.  I have learned that I descended
from those kinds of people.  I still haven't found a single ancestor from
one honest big-assed American city.

This has implications for the patterns I am seeing in 23andMe.  If small
remote communities formed, they were extensively interbred with a small gene
pool.  So I have cases where we are discovering what may be 6th cousins by 8
different paths, which shows up as the shared-SNP equivalent to a 5th
cousin.

It will be very difficult to untangle this knot.

I am pretty sure it will require a sophisticated algorithm running on
computers to solve it.

More later,

spike





From sm at vreedom.de  Wed Jul 10 07:39:59 2013
From: sm at vreedom.de (sm at vreedom.de)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2013 08:39:59 +0100
Subject: [ExI] 23andTriangulation
In-Reply-To: <008a01ce7d33$cd259740$6770c5c0$@rainier66.com>
References: <000601ce7cf6$176dbd70$46493850$@rainier66.com>
 <CAOJFdbLgqXfZP1+9m3uyb5e3j=ajaK07dMieNQJGQtH1FbELYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <008a01ce7d33$cd259740$6770c5c0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <007601ce7d40$af0a2660$0d1e7320$@vreedom.de>

I felt frustrated finding out that all my ancestors came from a small town
(in Hessen :) ) where not one of them moved for 500 years!
Where were the explorers, innovators, rebels??

Stephan


-----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht-----
Von: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] Im Auftrag von spike
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 10. Juli 2013 07:08
An: 'ExI chat list'
Betreff: Re: [ExI] 23andTriangulation


>... On Behalf Of Mike Dougherty
Sent: Tuesday, July 09, 2013 4:33 PM
To: ExI chat list
Subject: Re: [ExI] 23andTriangulation

On Tue, Jul 9, 2013 at 6:46 PM, spike <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:
> Ideas please: as a test, is there a way to get a dozen of us, or 
> fewer, make an excel file with columns of 64 numbers, each a random 
> integer between 0 and 255.  We define as sisters those columns which 
> share an average of 32 numbers.  Cousin columns share 16, second 
> cousins 8 and so on.  Next I form the triads, and see if I can get the 
> algorithm to find which columns are related to which.
>
> From that, I should be able to figure out which column is related to 
> which by triangulation, ja?

That is not what we mean with the term "Genetic Algorithm"  :)

>...I don't think it would be difficult to implement your matching
algorithm.  I'm not really clear on how you define the triads.  It sounds
like you are going to do that manually until you have enough practice with
it to describe an algorithm...

I realize my description of what I have in mind is terrible.  I think in
equations, not in words, oy.

OK, damn, I won't be able to get this done before vacation, and much of my
vacation is camping, so I won't have internet.

I am being tripped on 23andMe with a remarkable discovery, a pattern that
came more and more clear as I discovered ancestors farther and farther back:
alllll of them are from these little tiny isolated communities.  I can find
not one example of an old-time ancestor from a big city, not one.  I have
been searching for any ancestor from New York or Boston or any of the old
time cities, but all I find are roots in the country, very small towns.
This has deep implications for what I am trying to do.

Some of my earliest known relatives were apparently German soldiers hired by
the British and told they would fight Indians.  Then when they got here,
they found out they would be fighting the colonists.  Plenty of them didn't
want to fight actual white guys.  So when Washington crossed the Delaware
and captured about 1000 Hessians, he suffered almost no losses.  The various
historians have failed to explain an important factor in that very light
casualty count: the Hessians had nothing against American colonists and had
no desire to shoot them.  They really didn't put up much of a fight.

After the battle, General Washington didn't want to feed all those guys, and
the British no longer trusted their hired German guns, since it appeared
their loyalty to their employers was questionable.  So Washington ended up
paroling most of them, after which they went off deep into the woods and
started little communities way back there in western Virginia, Kentucky,
Ohio and such, but it was unclear whether they were still enemies of America
and possibly enemies of the British, so they stayed in closed little remote
communities for a century in some cases.  I have learned that I descended
from those kinds of people.  I still haven't found a single ancestor from
one honest big-assed American city.

This has implications for the patterns I am seeing in 23andMe.  If small
remote communities formed, they were extensively interbred with a small gene
pool.  So I have cases where we are discovering what may be 6th cousins by 8
different paths, which shows up as the shared-SNP equivalent to a 5th
cousin.

It will be very difficult to untangle this knot.

I am pretty sure it will require a sophisticated algorithm running on
computers to solve it.

More later,

spike



_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat




From eugen at leitl.org  Wed Jul 10 15:22:10 2013
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2013 17:22:10 +0200
Subject: [ExI] see you on Retroshare
Message-ID: <20130710152210.GW24217@leitl.org>


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From pharos at gmail.com  Wed Jul 10 15:55:56 2013
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2013 16:55:56 +0100
Subject: [ExI] see you on Retroshare
In-Reply-To: <20130710152210.GW24217@leitl.org>
References: <20130710152210.GW24217@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <CAL_armgkt7e6CuUcTFiEcRkDXaf4Y3fV=qGEsbJ_AV-ote+e7A@mail.gmail.com>

2013/7/10 Eugen Leitl remarked:
>
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> =38D/
> -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
>
>

Gmail offered to translate that from Hungarian. It didn't translate
very well. :)

It is a good comment on how strange the Hungarian language is, though.

I think a few more comments on the Retroshare platform might be useful.

BillK


From eugen at leitl.org  Wed Jul 10 16:15:47 2013
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2013 18:15:47 +0200
Subject: [ExI] see you on Retroshare
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armgkt7e6CuUcTFiEcRkDXaf4Y3fV=qGEsbJ_AV-ote+e7A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20130710152210.GW24217@leitl.org>
 <CAL_armgkt7e6CuUcTFiEcRkDXaf4Y3fV=qGEsbJ_AV-ote+e7A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20130710161547.GB24217@leitl.org>

On Wed, Jul 10, 2013 at 04:55:56PM +0100, BillK wrote:

> I think a few more comments on the Retroshare platform might be useful.

The death of the open Internet has been prophesied several
times, but now it is really happening. Now is the time
to start the migration awy from the centralized, open channels 
into enduser-run darknet.

Retroshare https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RetroShare is a borderline
mature and feature-rich environment to begin that process.

http://retroshare.sourceforge.net/


From atymes at gmail.com  Wed Jul 10 16:47:45 2013
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2013 09:47:45 -0700
Subject: [ExI] see you on Retroshare
In-Reply-To: <20130710161547.GB24217@leitl.org>
References: <20130710152210.GW24217@leitl.org>
 <CAL_armgkt7e6CuUcTFiEcRkDXaf4Y3fV=qGEsbJ_AV-ote+e7A@mail.gmail.com>
 <20130710161547.GB24217@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNRKk21on0d1UYAfDufNhTG10LcWVEs4XKqQ7acsT5Hpwg@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jul 10, 2013 at 9:15 AM, Eugen Leitl <eugen at leitl.org> wrote:

> On Wed, Jul 10, 2013 at 04:55:56PM +0100, BillK wrote:
> > I think a few more comments on the Retroshare platform might be useful.
>
> The death of the open Internet has been prophesied several
> times, but now it is really happening. Now is the time
> to start the migration awy from the centralized, open channels
> into enduser-run darknet.
>

Where, without advertising to draw new members (at least so
much as being googlable), communities die a slow, stagnant
death.  I've seen it happen multiple times.

Meanwhile, the communities who continue to exist in the open,
despite the increased costs, may continue to get new members.
(Some of them at very low rates, granted.)

Unfortunately, it is extremely difficult to convince people of this
until they run into it, and struggle with it for years.  Of course,
those who insist on such moves also tend to insist that the
world is as they believe it to be, regardless of the evidence.
This is not useful in finding ways to improve the world that are
more effective than wishing hard.

Further, in most cases the transition drives away enough
members (who were marginally participating in the first place)
that the community undergoes a phase change, losing any
effectiveness it had.  The counter to this is being someone who
could assemble the community in the first place - but I'm not
sure even Mr. More would care to rebuild the Extropians from
scratch, given the changes the world has undergone.

TL,DR: the open Internet is still alive, and prophesies which
keep proving false won't change that.  No matter how much of
an emotionally releasing disasterbationist fantasy they would
be if true, hard data - not anecdotes and fear-based worries
about possible futures - is what matters.
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From eugen at leitl.org  Wed Jul 10 17:02:08 2013
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2013 19:02:08 +0200
Subject: [ExI] see you on Retroshare
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNRKk21on0d1UYAfDufNhTG10LcWVEs4XKqQ7acsT5Hpwg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20130710152210.GW24217@leitl.org>
 <CAL_armgkt7e6CuUcTFiEcRkDXaf4Y3fV=qGEsbJ_AV-ote+e7A@mail.gmail.com>
 <20130710161547.GB24217@leitl.org>
 <CALAdGNRKk21on0d1UYAfDufNhTG10LcWVEs4XKqQ7acsT5Hpwg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20130710170208.GF24217@leitl.org>

On Wed, Jul 10, 2013 at 09:47:45AM -0700, Adrian Tymes wrote:

> Where, without advertising to draw new members (at least so

If you're fond of Teletubbyland, by all means, stay entertained.

> much as being googlable), communities die a slow, stagnant

Sorry, no more Google. Needs moar YaCy.

> death.  I've seen it happen multiple times.
> 
> Meanwhile, the communities who continue to exist in the open,

... are sitting ducks.

> despite the increased costs, may continue to get new members.

The opposite, you're talking about competing with free
resources. Running your own takes at least some effort.

> (Some of them at very low rates, granted.)
> 
> Unfortunately, it is extremely difficult to convince people of this
> until they run into it, and struggle with it for years.  Of course,

There have been no darknets in existance for years.
In fact, there won't be for another decade. I'm just
giving you an early teaser. No further invitations
will be forthcoming.

> those who insist on such moves also tend to insist that the
> world is as they believe it to be, regardless of the evidence.
> This is not useful in finding ways to improve the world that are
> more effective than wishing hard.

You'll might find that trying to improve the world in the
open will disagree with your health eventually.
 
> Further, in most cases the transition drives away enough
> members (who were marginally participating in the first place)
> that the community undergoes a phase change, losing any
> effectiveness it had.  The counter to this is being someone who

My anecdote is the opposite of yours.

> could assemble the community in the first place - but I'm not
> sure even Mr. More would care to rebuild the Extropians from
> scratch, given the changes the world has undergone.

This is not about resurrecting ExI.
 
> TL,DR: the open Internet is still alive, and prophesies which
> keep proving false won't change that.  No matter how much of
> an emotionally releasing disasterbationist fantasy they would
> be if true, hard data - not anecdotes and fear-based worries
> about possible futures - is what matters.

The hard data says you're a sitting duck. Your choice.


From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Wed Jul 10 17:29:42 2013
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2013 19:29:42 +0200
Subject: [ExI] head transplants
In-Reply-To: <1373302013.85754.YahooMailNeo@web121206.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <1372707479.19557.YahooMailNeo@web121206.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CALAdGNQ2BHyt8gf5U5dAg0-VyRtD+Zjwzd6XqkyWazVKoVXfmA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a4mpygbfFOGY-d3QpjbXoHByiFqquUEca=26ycQrDZGzA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1373302013.85754.YahooMailNeo@web121206.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a5J302TeZcjcCDf4QxE3304fVLWjmENSrwK9Uu87MKeBQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 8 July 2013 18:46, Gordon <gts_2000 at yahoo.com> wrote:

> If and when they become possible, I think they should be called body
> transplants as opposed to head transplants. If my doctor told me he wanted
> to attach a donor body to my head, I would consider it. If he wanted to
> attach a donor head to my body, I would definitely seek a second opinion.
>

One can see that you are inordinately fond of your head... :-)

-- 
Stefano Vaj
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From stefano.vaj at gmail.com  Wed Jul 10 17:32:13 2013
From: stefano.vaj at gmail.com (Stefano Vaj)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2013 19:32:13 +0200
Subject: [ExI] head transplants
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armiFihPXkcJm=5LDvjMBDR4m86rQeeVV9HauU5x-AMkA-A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1372707479.19557.YahooMailNeo@web121206.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CALAdGNQ2BHyt8gf5U5dAg0-VyRtD+Zjwzd6XqkyWazVKoVXfmA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a4mpygbfFOGY-d3QpjbXoHByiFqquUEca=26ycQrDZGzA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1373302013.85754.YahooMailNeo@web121206.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAL_armiFihPXkcJm=5LDvjMBDR4m86rQeeVV9HauU5x-AMkA-A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPoR7a6Ue6OYdeW01aOm2eJn9PWwBbZ7MgXszUQppjY7fNFbug@mail.gmail.com>

On 8 July 2013 20:09, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:

> I think they will be called body transplants.


In principle, yes. But let us say that you have head your head smashed and
you are able to download a backup of your identity on a new head in good
shape... :-)
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From anders at aleph.se  Wed Jul 10 17:38:57 2013
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2013 19:38:57 +0200
Subject: [ExI] see you on Retroshare
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNRKk21on0d1UYAfDufNhTG10LcWVEs4XKqQ7acsT5Hpwg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20130710152210.GW24217@leitl.org>
 <CAL_armgkt7e6CuUcTFiEcRkDXaf4Y3fV=qGEsbJ_AV-ote+e7A@mail.gmail.com>
 <20130710161547.GB24217@leitl.org>
 <CALAdGNRKk21on0d1UYAfDufNhTG10LcWVEs4XKqQ7acsT5Hpwg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <51DD9C31.7060001@aleph.se>

On 2013-07-10 18:47, Adrian Tymes wrote:
> Where, without advertising to draw new members (at least so
> much as being googlable), communities die a slow, stagnant
> death.  I've seen it happen multiple times.
>
> Meanwhile, the communities who continue to exist in the open,
> despite the increased costs, may continue to get new members.
> (Some of them at very low rates, granted.)

This is a general problem/feature. I argued something similar about 
biometric systems: you can design something with built-in privacy and 
protection against mission creep (at least in theory, to some extent), 
or you can have a system that is open - you can change what it is used 
for in the future, and the data can be turned to new uses. Now, which 
system will grow the most? The open will find new uses, it can be 
upgraded, and failures to foresee new needs will not block things. So it 
will win in the end because the closed system only has the advantages 
originally planned.

Open communities that can grow, change and find new sources of income or 
motivation will persist. The ones that are less encumbered by built-in 
restrictions will tend to thrive. That doesn't mean all the others will 
go extinct, but critical mass effects (you need enough participants to 
create a feedback loop of activity) will weed them out.

So I suspect it is uphill for most crypto-communities even when people 
see their point. But it is not a guaranteed failure, and having a few 
alternatives around is useful and might even force market leaders to be 
honest to some extent (consider how linux as an alternative affected 
Apple and Microsoft).


-- 
Dr Anders Sandberg
Future of Humanity Institute
Oxford Martin School
Oxford University

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From kanzure at gmail.com  Wed Jul 10 17:50:40 2013
From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2013 12:50:40 -0500
Subject: [ExI] see you on Retroshare
In-Reply-To: <51DD9C31.7060001@aleph.se>
References: <20130710152210.GW24217@leitl.org>
 <CAL_armgkt7e6CuUcTFiEcRkDXaf4Y3fV=qGEsbJ_AV-ote+e7A@mail.gmail.com>
 <20130710161547.GB24217@leitl.org>
 <CALAdGNRKk21on0d1UYAfDufNhTG10LcWVEs4XKqQ7acsT5Hpwg@mail.gmail.com>
 <51DD9C31.7060001@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <CABaSBaybKQZ5T32FL1AZnsDEsfzaLW8fqWaQABLNTcyWu6tjuw@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jul 10, 2013 at 12:38 PM, Anders Sandberg <anders at aleph.se> wrote:

> So I suspect it is uphill for most crypto-communities even when people see
> their point. But it is not a guaranteed failure, and having a few
> alternatives around is useful and might even force market leaders to be
> honest to some extent (consider how linux as an alternative affected Apple
> and Microsoft).
>

I don't see the arguments about requiring membership growth. For certain
communities that are only meant to last 10-20 years, you don't really need
that much membership growth unless everyone dies.

- Bryan
http://heybryan.org/
1 512 203 0507
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From atymes at gmail.com  Wed Jul 10 18:01:33 2013
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2013 11:01:33 -0700
Subject: [ExI] see you on Retroshare
In-Reply-To: <51DD9C31.7060001@aleph.se>
References: <20130710152210.GW24217@leitl.org>
 <CAL_armgkt7e6CuUcTFiEcRkDXaf4Y3fV=qGEsbJ_AV-ote+e7A@mail.gmail.com>
 <20130710161547.GB24217@leitl.org>
 <CALAdGNRKk21on0d1UYAfDufNhTG10LcWVEs4XKqQ7acsT5Hpwg@mail.gmail.com>
 <51DD9C31.7060001@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNQyHFaAK5bYUDFdppfvZn9nFd9=9+jmuC4NJ0rEOT-DaQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Jul 10, 2013 10:42 AM, "Anders Sandberg" <anders at aleph.se> wrote:
> So I suspect it is uphill for most crypto-communities even when people
see their point. But it is not a guaranteed failure, and having a few
alternatives around is useful and might even force market leaders to be
honest to some extent (consider how linux as an alternative affected Apple
and Microsoft).

A fair point, but note that Linux - and Unix in general - had seen
significant use despite the Macintosh and Windows OSes before, e.g., Apple
came up with the Unix-based OS X.  More importantly, note that the very
existence of Linux was not hidden.  Even a crypto-community can be
advertised.

A good example might be the 4chan Anonymous community: in the public
consciousness to some degree, accomplishing at least minimal change, and
not archived except for bits they want to archive.  Most members are, well,
anonymous and shielded even from FBI warrants by a deliberate lack of
tracking.  (At most, the admins could give out possibly-spoofed IP
addresses.)
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From spike at rainier66.com  Wed Jul 10 18:40:44 2013
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2013 11:40:44 -0700
Subject: [ExI] head transplants
In-Reply-To: <CAPoR7a5J302TeZcjcCDf4QxE3304fVLWjmENSrwK9Uu87MKeBQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1372707479.19557.YahooMailNeo@web121206.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CALAdGNQ2BHyt8gf5U5dAg0-VyRtD+Zjwzd6XqkyWazVKoVXfmA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a4mpygbfFOGY-d3QpjbXoHByiFqquUEca=26ycQrDZGzA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1373302013.85754.YahooMailNeo@web121206.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAPoR7a5J302TeZcjcCDf4QxE3304fVLWjmENSrwK9Uu87MKeBQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00b101ce7d9c$fe53fb90$fafbf2b0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Stefano Vaj
Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2013 10:30 AM
To: Gordon; ExI chat list
Subject: Re: [ExI] head transplants

 

.

 

>.One can see that you are inordinately fond of your head... :-) --  Stefano
Vaj 

 

 

I am too!  My brain is my second favorite organ.

 

spike

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From kellycoinguy at gmail.com  Wed Jul 10 23:09:55 2013
From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2013 17:09:55 -0600
Subject: [ExI] head transplants
In-Reply-To: <1372707479.19557.YahooMailNeo@web121206.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <1372707479.19557.YahooMailNeo@web121206.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAPy8RwY+xWjPL=ab7QgKx62a7_dWe80QMtUkmYKw7234JQP-sA@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jul 1, 2013 at 1:37 PM, Gordon <gts_2000 at yahoo.com> wrote:

> You might get a new head someday, but you won't know about it.
>
> First-ever human head transplant is now possible, says neuroscientist
>
> http://qz.com/99413/first-ever-human-head-transplant-is-now-possible-says-neuroscientist/
>

I agree with the others that it is a full body transplant, not a head
transplant.

Of course, you might only use that term when you are moving just the brain,
not severing the neck. Don't know if that would be a lot harder than this,
or about the same level of difficulty.

But there's one other thing that I find interesting. If you end up with one
functional human at the end, does that human inherit the worldly
possessions of both the body and head donor? Or just those of the head?
Inquiring minds want to know.

-Kelly
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From atymes at gmail.com  Thu Jul 11 00:43:53 2013
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2013 17:43:53 -0700
Subject: [ExI] head transplants
In-Reply-To: <CAPy8RwY+xWjPL=ab7QgKx62a7_dWe80QMtUkmYKw7234JQP-sA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1372707479.19557.YahooMailNeo@web121206.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAPy8RwY+xWjPL=ab7QgKx62a7_dWe80QMtUkmYKw7234JQP-sA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNRaUqUTYQpD9HP0nXqnrJMFpwEMx0OnPboTFqKAVSws1Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Jul 10, 2013 4:11 PM, "Kelly Anderson" <kellycoinguy at gmail.com> wrote:
> But there's one other thing that I find interesting. If you end up with
one functional human at the end, does that human inherit the worldly
possessions of both the body and head donor? Or just those of the head?
Inquiring minds want to know.

Since the legal/medical precedent considers brain death to be death, you'd
have the head's property only.
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From msd001 at gmail.com  Thu Jul 11 00:46:58 2013
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2013 20:46:58 -0400
Subject: [ExI] head transplants
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNRaUqUTYQpD9HP0nXqnrJMFpwEMx0OnPboTFqKAVSws1Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1372707479.19557.YahooMailNeo@web121206.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAPy8RwY+xWjPL=ab7QgKx62a7_dWe80QMtUkmYKw7234JQP-sA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRaUqUTYQpD9HP0nXqnrJMFpwEMx0OnPboTFqKAVSws1Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOJFdbJzyEdC10uJR2R=jsnFSSuB3rPXSRkurQc=+ExGDSTncw@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jul 10, 2013 at 8:43 PM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:
> Since the legal/medical precedent considers brain death to be death, you'd
> have the head's property only.

Though by "Finder's Keepers" you'd have the body's wallet.


From hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu  Thu Jul 11 01:07:03 2013
From: hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu (Henry Rivera)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2013 21:07:03 -0400
Subject: [ExI] 23andTriangulation
Message-ID: <CAMdUVLyaJg7L8=acBScTgzG5civhksfTdTidEgTWESGJ8TKJGg@mail.gmail.com>

Spike,

Since you can't seem to get unstuck from the genealogy topic, I will
chime in after all with no concern that I am encouraging you to
continue with this mostly non-extropian thread--we are way past that
point. Before there was 23andme, there was FamilyTreeDNA.com, of which
I am a member. My understanding is that 23andme does what they do but
adds the element of probabilities for certain medical conditions. On
FamilyTreeDNA, depending on what tests are ordered and the level of
specificity of markers used in those tests, one gets a list of
"matches" which updates as new members join and are found to be
related. Currently, they boast having the largest DNA database with a
total of 640,687records.

If one purchases a Y-DNA test, one will see matches sorted by genetic
"steps" with the headings Steps, Name, Test Ordered, Most Distant
Ancestor (as listed by the member), Y-DNA Haplogroup, Terminal SNP,
and Match Date. Each match has a TiP report link which reveals
probabilities that one shared a common ancestor with that member. For
example, on my top match, 2 steps away, I learn, "In comparing Y-DNA
37 marker results, the probability that USER X and Henry Rivera shared
a common ancestor within the last...

Generations Percentage
4                 31.08%
8                 71.35%
12               90.73%
16               97.39%
20               99.33%
24               99.84%"

So one learns there is a connection, but how distant a relative
remains somewhat vague. If one has a a family tree that goes back a
few generations, one can compare it with the match's family tree
looking for that common ancestor. Members can optionally post their
family trees in the form of GEDCOM files for matches to view/download
for this purpose. For some privacy, this disclaimer clarifies what one
can and cannot see in these family trees: "Move your mouse over a name
to see birth and death details if available. If a down arrow appears
over an individual's name, click on it to reveal more on that
particular line. Individuals known to be born within the past one
hundred years are hidden for privacy unless the GEDCOM owner specified
otherwise." I am not sure if you get similar data with 23andme, but
this sort of info helps with the triangulation you hope to accomplish
I think.

By the way, related to the initial thread on this topic, I am one of
those blokes who learned via DNA testing that I am not actually a
Rivera. While this did shake up my sense of identity for a moment, I
am glad I know this. I figured this out by connecting with some other
Riveras who are share common ancestors on my tree, and all were a
different haplogroup. It turns out my Rivera Y-DNA line has a known
and established haplogroup that doesn't doens't match mine. My top two
genetic matches have the surname Sena. I am probably a Sena. My
paternal great grandfather or one of his male ancestors, maybe a Sena,
managed to get raised by Riveras and took on the Rivera name. If it
happened knowingly, it was an adoption. If it happened
surreptitiously, a Rivera?s wife had an affair with a Sena man, and
their offspring was raised by the Rivera couple as their own.
Scandalous!

As more people do the DNA test, it may turn out I am not a Sena
either. I could better match with someone with a surname not yet in
the database. I also have common ancestors with these surnames in the
database: Rios, Santos, Lujan, Brito. Those common ancestors are
probably more than 16 generations out however.

Someone had to break it to me that it doesn't look like I'm a Rivera,
and I had to break the news to other relatives. Furthermore, I learned
that, based on my haplogroup, I am likely related to Sephartic Jews
who practiced in secret in New Mexico, even though I come from a
family of devout Roman Catholics! When I informed one of my aunts of
this, she responded, "Maybe you guys (referring to the other relatives
in the room) are Jewish, but I'm not!!" My grandmother who prayed the
rosary and went to mass daily would be turning in her grave if she
knew, I think. In the end, given the importance of this information, I
am glad to have stumbled upon it, and I think others on FamilyTreeDNA
and 23andme would feel the same way even if it is a surprise. That's
sort of why people do such DNA testing anyway, at least on
FamilyTreeDNA.

-Henry



From spike at rainier66.com  Thu Jul 11 01:08:05 2013
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2013 18:08:05 -0700
Subject: [ExI] head transplants
In-Reply-To: <CAOJFdbJzyEdC10uJR2R=jsnFSSuB3rPXSRkurQc=+ExGDSTncw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1372707479.19557.YahooMailNeo@web121206.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAPy8RwY+xWjPL=ab7QgKx62a7_dWe80QMtUkmYKw7234JQP-sA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRaUqUTYQpD9HP0nXqnrJMFpwEMx0OnPboTFqKAVSws1Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOJFdbJzyEdC10uJR2R=jsnFSSuB3rPXSRkurQc=+ExGDSTncw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <002201ce7dd3$1a8ca740$4fa5f5c0$@rainier66.com>


>... Behalf Of Mike Dougherty
Subject: Re: [ExI] head transplants

On Wed, Jul 10, 2013 at 8:43 PM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:
>>... Since the legal/medical precedent considers brain death to be death,
you'd have the head's property only.

>...Though by "Finder's Keepers" you'd have the body's wallet.
_______________________________________________



The functional human gets the head donor's hats and dental work, and also
owns the body donor's piercings and jewelry.

The whole question gives entirely new meaning to the phrase "She gave him
head."  For that matter, it also rather redefines the notion "If you will
take good care of my children, I will give you my body."

This actually has implications for cryonics, when a patient has an
inoperable brain tumor, such as at the brain stem.  The patient would have
her cancerous but still operational head preserved, donate her perfectly
good body to some patient with pancreatic or other cancer that cannot be
treated.  Ideally we want the two donors to be opposite gender: not that
there is any really compelling scientific reason, I just have always
wondered what that would be like.




Evolution, I love this place.  These are the kinds of threads which have
kept me hanging out at ExI-chat for over 17 years now.

spike



From spike at rainier66.com  Thu Jul 11 01:30:23 2013
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2013 18:30:23 -0700
Subject: [ExI] 23andTriangulation
In-Reply-To: <CAMdUVLyaJg7L8=acBScTgzG5civhksfTdTidEgTWESGJ8TKJGg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMdUVLyaJg7L8=acBScTgzG5civhksfTdTidEgTWESGJ8TKJGg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <003101ce7dd6$37c5db30$a7519190$@rainier66.com>


>... On Behalf Of Henry Rivera
Subject: Re: [ExI] 23andTriangulation

>...Spike,

>...Since you can't seem to get unstuck from the genealogy topic, I will
chime in after all with no concern that I am encouraging you to continue
with this mostly non-extropian thread--we are way past that point...-Henry

_______________________________________________


Hi Henry thanks, I completely disagree.  

First of all thanks for the info, good stuff, and interesting story about
being Catholic Jew.  Very cool.

The whole notion of 23andMe and FamilyTreeDNA.com is completely extropian
and highly relevant to what we are discussing here.  How often do we get to
witness a phase change like the one we are about to see because of the
growth of a DNA database?  It has profound implications for something that
is a huge topic in the USA currently because of a legal change that requires
everyone buy health insurance.  Even that had profound implications, for it
revealed something fundamental: the US government cannot legally require you
to do anything, but it can call you on a tax audit, at which time the IRS
can do anything it wants with you, your property, everything.  We have had a
steadily growing totalitarian system in place since the IRS was established,
it just hadn't actually revealed itself until recently.

So the implication is that there is nothing stopping anyone from figuring
out their health risks based on DNA, then buying insurance if they are high
risk, or just paying the fine if they are at low risk.

That alone is discussion worthy to say the least.

spike



From pharos at gmail.com  Thu Jul 11 06:55:15 2013
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2013 07:55:15 +0100
Subject: [ExI] 23andTriangulation
In-Reply-To: <003101ce7dd6$37c5db30$a7519190$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAMdUVLyaJg7L8=acBScTgzG5civhksfTdTidEgTWESGJ8TKJGg@mail.gmail.com>
 <003101ce7dd6$37c5db30$a7519190$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armjexdPU7_VsKsr3xHafyf7UYaJg+LvqK9YCV3uykPogJQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jul 11, 2013 at 2:30 AM, spike wrote:
>
<snip>
> So the implication is that there is nothing stopping anyone from figuring
> out their health risks based on DNA, then buying insurance if they are high
> risk, or just paying the fine if they are at low risk.
>
>

I have doubts about using this DNA data to decide about buying health
insurance in the USA.

When you buy house insurance, you are pretty confident that you will
never need to claim on it. You are buying peace of mind. In the very
unlikely event that your house burns down, falls into a sinkhole or
gets destroyed by an 18-wheeler truck, then you can recover the
rebuild cost from the insurance.

I think the same logic applies to buying health insurance in the USA.
(Either the new government scheme or private health insurance). There
are many problems requiring medical care and/or hospitalization that
have nothing to do with inherited conditions. Lack of medical
insurance causes financial ruin to many Americans (and illnesses go
untreated).
Anyone can fall off a roof or pick up an infection. Insurance means
you don't have to worry about medical problems bankrupting you.

As with all insurance, you have to decide whether the cost of the
premiums is worth the freedom from worry.

BillK


From eugen at leitl.org  Thu Jul 11 07:03:37 2013
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2013 09:03:37 +0200
Subject: [ExI] see you on Retroshare
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNQyHFaAK5bYUDFdppfvZn9nFd9=9+jmuC4NJ0rEOT-DaQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20130710152210.GW24217@leitl.org>
 <CAL_armgkt7e6CuUcTFiEcRkDXaf4Y3fV=qGEsbJ_AV-ote+e7A@mail.gmail.com>
 <20130710161547.GB24217@leitl.org>
 <CALAdGNRKk21on0d1UYAfDufNhTG10LcWVEs4XKqQ7acsT5Hpwg@mail.gmail.com>
 <51DD9C31.7060001@aleph.se>
 <CALAdGNQyHFaAK5bYUDFdppfvZn9nFd9=9+jmuC4NJ0rEOT-DaQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20130711070337.GL24217@leitl.org>

On Wed, Jul 10, 2013 at 11:01:33AM -0700, Adrian Tymes wrote:

> A good example might be the 4chan Anonymous community: in the public
> consciousness to some degree, accomplishing at least minimal change, and

"At least minimal change." Yep, severe Teletubbyland syndrome. 

> not archived except for bits they want to archive.  Most members are, well,
> anonymous and shielded even from FBI warrants by a deliberate lack of

"well, anonymous"

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

> tracking.  (At most, the admins could give out possibly-spoofed IP
> addresses.)

You're hilarious. Keep it up.


From eugen at leitl.org  Thu Jul 11 08:36:16 2013
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2013 10:36:16 +0200
Subject: [ExI] see you on Retroshare
In-Reply-To: <51DD9C31.7060001@aleph.se>
References: <20130710152210.GW24217@leitl.org>
 <CAL_armgkt7e6CuUcTFiEcRkDXaf4Y3fV=qGEsbJ_AV-ote+e7A@mail.gmail.com>
 <20130710161547.GB24217@leitl.org>
 <CALAdGNRKk21on0d1UYAfDufNhTG10LcWVEs4XKqQ7acsT5Hpwg@mail.gmail.com>
 <51DD9C31.7060001@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <20130711083616.GM24217@leitl.org>

On Wed, Jul 10, 2013 at 07:38:57PM +0200, Anders Sandberg wrote:

> So I suspect it is uphill for most crypto-communities even when
> people see their point. But it is not a guaranteed failure, and
> having a few alternatives around is useful and might even force
> market leaders to be honest to some extent (consider how linux as an

Market leaders can't be honest by definition (because they 
are registered entities subject to state regulations and
strongarming behind the scenes). Which is why Debian is 
much preferrable to Ubuntu.

This is is not to say that e.g. the secret on
http://ftp-master.debian.org/keys.html is secure,
or that they can't rubberhose Theo or pull a
stealthy http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/11/20/freebsd_breach/

> alternative affected Apple and Microsoft).

You can be certain that all proprietary systems are 
backdoored by design.


From spike at rainier66.com  Thu Jul 11 13:46:15 2013
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike)
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2013 06:46:15 -0700
Subject: [ExI] 23andTriangulation
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armjexdPU7_VsKsr3xHafyf7UYaJg+LvqK9YCV3uykPogJQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMdUVLyaJg7L8=acBScTgzG5civhksfTdTidEgTWESGJ8TKJGg@mail.gmail.com>
 <003101ce7dd6$37c5db30$a7519190$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armjexdPU7_VsKsr3xHafyf7UYaJg+LvqK9YCV3uykPogJQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <004401ce7e3d$049a29c0$0dce7d40$@rainier66.com>


>... On Behalf Of BillK
Subject: Re: [ExI] 23andTriangulation

On Thu, Jul 11, 2013 at 2:30 AM, spike wrote:
>
<snip>
>>... So the implication is that there is nothing stopping anyone from 
> figuring out their health risks based on DNA, then buying insurance if 
> they are high risk, or just paying the fine if they are at low risk.
>
>

>...I have doubts about using this DNA data to decide about buying health
insurance in the USA.

>...When you buy house insurance, you are pretty confident that you will
never need to claim on it. You are buying peace of mind. In the very
unlikely event that your house burns down, falls into a sinkhole or gets
destroyed by an 18-wheeler truck, then you can recover the rebuild cost from
the insurance.

>...I think the same logic applies to buying health insurance in the USA.
(Either the new government scheme or private health insurance). There are
many problems requiring medical care and/or hospitalization that have
nothing to do with inherited conditions. Lack of medical insurance causes
financial ruin to many Americans (and illnesses go untreated).
Anyone can fall off a roof or pick up an infection. Insurance means you
don't have to worry about medical problems bankrupting you.

>...As with all insurance, you have to decide whether the cost of the
premiums is worth the freedom from worry.  BillK
_______________________________________________

Thanks BillK, 

I didn't trim anything out of your message intentionally, because it is
concisely written and has some important concepts in there.

The reason health insurance is not comparable to accident insurance is that
the cost of health insurance alone is sufficient to bankrupt lower earners
singlehandedly.  Accident insurance is waaaaay cheaper, way cheaper.

Here's how the USA scheme works.  In nice big round numbers, compareat all
20-somethings to all 60-somethings.  In single-digit precision-ish numbers,
health cost for the 60s are about 6 times the healthcare cost of the 20s.
Insurance companies don't like to reveal that info, but that is about what
it is.  It came out during the non-debate on O-care.  The insurance
companies use the 20s to subsidize the 60s, since the 20s pay about a third
what the 60s pay.  But many of the 20s decide that is a bad deal for them.
Reason: because it is a bad deal for them.  The 20s are being charged a
third for something that costs a sixth, so they overpay by a factor of 2 in
a sense.  So the less healthy 20s are the ones who go ahead and buy health
insurance.  As a group, the less healthy voluntary insurance buyers are more
expensive to insure than the set which is all 20s.  So the insurance
companies are justified to some degree in charging them a third of the price
of the 60s instead of a sixth.

All this is intentionally ignoring employee health insurance by big
companies.  That is a separate topic.

The current law would set a bunch of prices for insurance that make it a
still worse deal for the 20s: they would pay half the rate of the 60s rather
than a sixth, and then to add injury to insult, the law compels them to buy
into the lousy deal.

Of course no one knew this beforehand, because the healthcare law was never
debated in congress.  I am not kidding, they didn't debate it on the floor.
The size of that bill was so enormous, no one could even read it, never mind
debate it.  Proper debate on something that size would have taken a decade.
The party which passed it knew they didn't have a decade, they only had two
years.  So they passed it without debate and without a single vote in either
chamber from the opposing party, which they are now asking to pay for.  Huh.
Sure will.

All this is still further complicated by the definition of the penalty for
non-insurance buying.  It is a fine?  A fine is something you pay for
breaking a law.  Or is it as the US Supreme Court decided, a tax?  A tax is
something you pay as a result of an activity, such as selling something for
a profit.  The distinction is important for those who hold security
clearances: one must be in strict compliance with law in everything.  If you
do anything more illegal than ripping a tag off a pillow you bought, you
risk that clearance which means you risk your job, which means you risk your
career.  So is the penalty for non-insurance buying a fine or a tax?  If it
is a tax, then fine, no problem.  If it is a fine, then it is not fine: you
have broken a law and may lose his clearance.

BillK, back to your original point: the cost to insure against accident
makes accident insurance a good idea: I carry a million dollar policy
myself.  And health insurance is a good idea for the 60s, who get subsidized
by the younger set.  But health insurance is a terrible deal for young and
healthy people, and it is getting worse.  If you are young and healthy, and
you find you have low genetic risk, I would advise the young-and-healthies
to buy accident insurance that specifically covers medical, and skip the
health insurance.  Of course then the non-health-insurance buyer pays a fine
and runs a new risk: a punitive IRS audit.  If the IRS figures out you are a
Tea Party type, you are dead.

The irony of all this is that young people voted for this bunch of yahoos.
They are only now figuring out what a raw deal they have been given.

spike



From mrjones2020 at gmail.com  Thu Jul 11 14:06:59 2013
From: mrjones2020 at gmail.com (J.R. Jones)
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2013 10:06:59 -0400
Subject: [ExI] see you on Retroshare
In-Reply-To: <20130710152210.GW24217@leitl.org>
References: <20130710152210.GW24217@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <CADDVf2JPpsd22E7BELv_4Df_PF8FKGSvbKcP-Grpwy7+tpurQQ@mail.gmail.com>

2013/7/10 Eugen Leitl <eugen at leitl.org>

> -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
> Version: OpenPGP:SDK v0.9
>
> xsBNBFG68IABCADXB1o49wDjL8ZF91kivo4pSMdq0xfzKMXi6ZyNt/oxhlNCBK6o
> PaVpo6GNu7E2Gdvh5ZQn+p6NQYE4y+2riQIsStO/ikmKaIfZ43wOOFdy52R71HHF
> nb3JzvS7pBhskpaBmyYiAoe9lHaOMPzpizJzbG26yFY+jizm1IcCa/vggzTSpzFc
> 5AfQBNwL+TXovaUi4FU4FLYlD0jikwQAVony4l3SB4cTjULVBxJyJATGwnTayAUn
> LQQIzdEYOIhNSVO4JEa8lmWhnWZHNUV9FwG48TiTkyMhZsS4urrwqd7KaX3T5ihC
> hksJPCFgFUtaIZBzQOpw2kNTYtMrEhTRRA0rABEBAAHNN0V1Z2VuIExlaXRsIChH
> ZW5lcmF0ZWQgYnkgUmV0cm9TaGFyZSkgPGV1Z2VuQGxlaXRsLm9yZz7CwF8EEwEC
> ABMFAlG68IAJEBwZ2iRKZrKNAhkBAAD9Wgf8CzCNaUoRqPqrbv5peqzrsl4Jv/wT
> 0dp9tvrJm7ooV5iAX81NRdwXOQ098iLoRKPaSHIcQz949nV93mUn70/7dexvrFYn
> P1Ugnp08f1WSH0wtwjB1C6NeN6h+RTwFtgy/92oJpbHumN+eEeFjMCLLxrJUIWFK
> 0np0oE7+Y1izFfuMWsfh7HzhO4E9eTMzzHHAgsDC2zI5An5W1yJ1HGmudB/EfFP3
> fur+s711VE3jlfvzfx1fB7Hve8+0lWQAvwAnaJNANorZFnsieQkClmqpp4jLqAQU
> Ss9BlEu2REP7LZ2aWyDBqmGV1370pHNm37dfjMiEDsCsmyE146rHpH984w==
> =38D/
> -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
>


-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

Version: OpenPGP:SDK v0.9

xsBNBFHeu0QBCADNF+52Fu8aWSAmbWBnTSP4ZX+2Sir/EBzdrkDP02NxzDaFzwN+

VbvJ69n/TqigHy5ReIitUnHSlrscCSbsq81wQ/2GiqGPeh+lYK8mRx7qmk89Z8xr

8XHYIFsikdYNmYEyh4okKowhTR7TUwWNh4XPo7sytMlGzrYZnHY1mf3Ih90FuaQ/

Bvj7zLrSOX53/ROxxsyHP8O5PegEZTe7RYKCOXKs4CI/vOH0t74pXlcpbyn0hzw9

EAIvZxXVb+84FnlWzSPj5oYIvcl7x5OBlKhyrnbsR3p8c/L4vZUn2PlJ6GrgdsOj

sEF88uVk9l6tirj+JeKc42vuW7unzWU2vshnABEBAAHNOk1yIEpvbmVzIChHZW5l

cmF0ZWQgYnkgUmV0cm9TaGFyZSkgPG1yam9uZXMyMDIwQGdtYWlsLmNvbT7CwF8E

EwECABMFAlHeu0QJEAbXNkDzgbOsAhkBAAC8QQgAqMGQiFfHTOVOkwgAQdBWBSWr

VLUanh2TWc8P2EoyEBv1jeyWwGKkpFOieWHxk44MTJVQx1QHSQaucfzMZdbjwxGJ

hCyjlCVTgsTg1TplNK4Odn1mX+vhxZIFux5OWUvl5/5AETW7W/jej6PPx7P4k8Fd

VftmcM6/UDDJ3RxGAezqHfdk9kGHP2UFBWtwmSbfXgayH9qjxKRXiLUSh3pMMsaG

O22XDah/2EH7uLq0pgT3SBYyGl+/N4wbJ97kKBj+tIjY4vp8d9Qt4RFZgv9mNzOJ

rru4AYrav4JjQvtYggk6sKxnXTIN8Cusgz/y+p604B4PoYL6wz3FZoDSlkpAUg==

=4zmc

-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Thu Jul 11 14:28:06 2013
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2013 10:28:06 -0400
Subject: [ExI] head transplants
In-Reply-To: <1373311186.41961.YahooMailNeo@web121202.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <1372707479.19557.YahooMailNeo@web121206.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CALAdGNQ2BHyt8gf5U5dAg0-VyRtD+Zjwzd6XqkyWazVKoVXfmA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPoR7a4mpygbfFOGY-d3QpjbXoHByiFqquUEca=26ycQrDZGzA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1373302013.85754.YahooMailNeo@web121206.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <006301ce7c06$dfc01ac0$9f405040$@rainier66.com>
 <1373311186.41961.YahooMailNeo@web121202.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv2rK8y8=PqFR8sZSeY2S9C8DbiDiv6PYwYhzQ3x3TK=LQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jul 8, 2013  Gordon <gts_2000 at yahoo.com> wrote:

> I can know that I received a new body,


True.

> but I cannot know that I received a new head.
>

Not true. You can know know you have received a new head if someone informs
you of that fact and I will do so right now; Mr. Swobe you have a new head,
the atoms in your present head were last years mashed potatoes.

 John K Clark
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From msd001 at gmail.com  Thu Jul 11 17:35:56 2013
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2013 13:35:56 -0400
Subject: [ExI] see you on Retroshare
In-Reply-To: <CADDVf2JPpsd22E7BELv_4Df_PF8FKGSvbKcP-Grpwy7+tpurQQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20130710152210.GW24217@leitl.org>
 <CADDVf2JPpsd22E7BELv_4Df_PF8FKGSvbKcP-Grpwy7+tpurQQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOJFdbKBRabEKbOLUWKJSmZtPok-ZDj=1S=DT03xmptj5fa5YQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jul 11, 2013 at 10:06 AM, J.R. Jones <mrjones2020 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 2013/7/10 Eugen Leitl <eugen at leitl.org>
>> -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
>> Version: OpenPGP:SDK v0.9
>> xsBNBFG68IABCADXB1o49wDjL8ZF91kivo4pSMdq0xfzKMXi6ZyNt/oxhlNCBK6o
>> ...
>> =38D/
>> -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
>
> -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
>
> Version: OpenPGP:SDK v0.9
> xsBNBFHeu0QBCADNF+52Fu8aWSAmbWBnTSP4ZX+2Sir/EBzdrkDP02NxzDaFzwN+
> ...
> =4zmc
> -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

So how's that work?  You just paste that not-really-hungarian mess
into a "people I know" file and then you can read the encrypted
content they're sending?


From pharos at gmail.com  Thu Jul 11 18:51:28 2013
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2013 19:51:28 +0100
Subject: [ExI] see you on Retroshare
In-Reply-To: <CAOJFdbKBRabEKbOLUWKJSmZtPok-ZDj=1S=DT03xmptj5fa5YQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20130710152210.GW24217@leitl.org>
 <CADDVf2JPpsd22E7BELv_4Df_PF8FKGSvbKcP-Grpwy7+tpurQQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOJFdbKBRabEKbOLUWKJSmZtPok-ZDj=1S=DT03xmptj5fa5YQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armjhLNMAFxMx74RKY6AxFUDWWNy8cg8ZeuLdnHO36WBORg@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jul 11, 2013 at 6:35 PM, Mike Dougherty  wrote:
> So how's that work?  You just paste that not-really-hungarian mess
> into a "people I know" file and then you can read the encrypted
> content they're sending?
>


Nearly. You have to download and install the Retroshare software.
Then when you run it, you have to create your own hungarian paragraph
(it's a PGP key).
Then you send your key to any people you know who are also running
Retroshare and then you can communicate securely with them. Retroshare
provides Instant Messaging and Filesharing with decentralised Forums
and Channels.

<http://retroshare.sourceforge.net/wiki/index.php/Documentation:Installation_Guide>

It is still under development, but it looks good so far.

BillK


From eugen at leitl.org  Thu Jul 11 19:33:34 2013
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2013 21:33:34 +0200
Subject: [ExI] see you on Retroshare
In-Reply-To: <CAOJFdbKBRabEKbOLUWKJSmZtPok-ZDj=1S=DT03xmptj5fa5YQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20130710152210.GW24217@leitl.org>
 <CADDVf2JPpsd22E7BELv_4Df_PF8FKGSvbKcP-Grpwy7+tpurQQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOJFdbKBRabEKbOLUWKJSmZtPok-ZDj=1S=DT03xmptj5fa5YQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20130711193333.GK24217@leitl.org>

On Thu, Jul 11, 2013 at 01:35:56PM -0400, Mike Dougherty wrote:

> So how's that work?  You just paste that not-really-hungarian mess
> into a "people I know" file and then you can read the encrypted
> content they're sending?

You click on the "Add a Friend Wizard" button at the top left,
choose the default "Enter the certificate manually" by hitting
the Next button, paste your friend's certificate into the box
(the cert just above that is yours, you can cut and paste it to 
send to other people you want to connect to), and then set
the trust level (which may prompt you for your passphrase,
if you have one).

That's it.


From eugen at leitl.org  Thu Jul 11 19:40:47 2013
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2013 21:40:47 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Revealed: how Microsoft handed the NSA access to encrypted
	messages
Message-ID: <20130711194047.GM24217@leitl.org>


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/11/microsoft-nsa-collaboration-user-data


Revealed: how Microsoft handed the NSA access to encrypted messages

? Secret files show scale of Silicon Valley co-operation on Prism

? Outlook.com encryption unlocked even before official launch

? Skype worked to enable Prism collection of video calls

? Company says it is legally compelled to comply

Glenn Greenwald, Ewen MacAskill, Laura Poitras, Spencer Ackerman and
Dominic Rushe	guardian.co.uk, Thursday 11 July 2013 18.53 BST	

Skype logo

Skype worked with intelligence agencies last year to allow Prism to collect
video and audio conversations. Photograph: Patrick Sinkel/AP

Microsoft has collaborated closely with US intelligence services to allow
users' communications to be intercepted, including helping the National
Security Agency to circumvent the company's own encryption, according to
top-secret documents obtained by the Guardian.

The files provided by Edward Snowden illustrate the scale of co-operation
between Silicon Valley and the intelligence agencies over the last three
years. They also shed new light on the workings of the top-secret Prism
program, which was disclosed by the Guardian and the Washington Post last
month.

The documents show that:

? Microsoft helped the NSA to circumvent its encryption to address concerns
that the agency would be unable to intercept web chats on the new Outlook.com
portal;

? The agency already had pre-encryption stage access to email on Outlook.com,
including Hotmail;

? The company worked with the FBI this year to allow the NSA easier access
via Prism to its cloud storage service SkyDrive, which now has more than 250
million users worldwide;

? Microsoft also worked with the FBI's Data Intercept Unit to "understand"
potential issues with a feature in Outlook.com that allows users to create
email aliases;

? Skype, which was bought by Microsoft in October 2011, worked with
intelligence agencies last year to allow Prism to collect video of
conversations as well as audio;

? Material collected through Prism is routinely shared with the FBI and CIA,
with one NSA document describing the program as a "team sport".

The latest NSA revelations further expose the tensions between Silicon Valley
and the Obama administration. All the major tech firms are lobbying the
government to allow them to disclose more fully the extent and nature of
their co-operation with the NSA to meet their customers' privacy concerns.
Privately, tech executives are at pains to distance themselves from claims of
collaboration and teamwork given by the NSA documents, and insist the process
is driven by legal compulsion.

In a statement, Microsoft said: "When we upgrade or update products we aren't
absolved from the need to comply with existing or future lawful demands." The
company reiterated its argument that it provides customer data "only in
response to government demands and we only ever comply with orders for
requests about specific accounts or identifiers".

In June, the Guardian revealed that the NSA claimed to have "direct access"
through the Prism program to the systems of many major internet companies,
including Microsoft, Skype, Apple, Google, Facebook and Yahoo.

Blanket orders from the secret surveillance court allow these communications
to be collected without an individual warrant if the NSA operative has a 51%
belief that the target is not a US citizen and is not on US soil at the time.
Targeting US citizens does require an individual warrant, but the NSA is able
to collect Americans' communications without a warrant if the target is a
foreign national located overseas.

Since Prism's existence became public, Microsoft and the other companies
listed on the NSA documents as providers have denied all knowledge of the
program and insisted that the intelligence agencies do not have back doors
into their systems.

Microsoft's latest marketing campaign, launched in April, emphasizes its
commitment to privacy with the slogan: "Your privacy is our priority."

Similarly, Skype's privacy policy states: "Skype is committed to respecting
your privacy and the confidentiality of your personal data, traffic data and
communications content."

But internal NSA newsletters, marked top secret, suggest the co-operation
between the intelligence community and the companies is deep and ongoing.

The latest documents come from the NSA's Special Source Operations (SSO)
division, described by Snowden as the "crown jewel" of the agency. It is
responsible for all programs aimed at US communications systems through
corporate partnerships such as Prism.

The files show that the NSA became concerned about the interception of
encrypted chats on Microsoft's Outlook.com portal from the moment the company
began testing the service in July last year.

Within five months, the documents explain, Microsoft and the FBI had come up
with a solution that allowed the NSA to circumvent encryption on Outlook.com
chats

A newsletter entry dated 26 December 2012 states: "MS [Microsoft], working
with the FBI, developed a surveillance capability to deal" with the issue.
"These solutions were successfully tested and went live 12 Dec 2012."

Two months later, in February this year, Microsoft officially launched the
Outlook.com portal.

Another newsletter entry stated that NSA already had pre-encryption access to
Outlook email. "For Prism collection against Hotmail, Live, and Outlook.com
emails will be unaffected because Prism collects this data prior to
encryption."

Microsoft's co-operation was not limited to Outlook.com. An entry dated 8
April 2013 describes how the company worked "for many months" with the FBI ?
which acts as the liaison between the intelligence agencies and Silicon
Valley on Prism ? to allow Prism access without separate authorization to its
cloud storage service SkyDrive.

The document describes how this access "means that analysts will no longer
have to make a special request to SSO for this ? a process step that many
analysts may not have known about".

The NSA explained that "this new capability will result in a much more
complete and timely collection response". It continued: "This success is the
result of the FBI working for many months with Microsoft to get this tasking
and collection solution established."

A separate entry identified another area for collaboration. "The FBI Data
Intercept Technology Unit (DITU) team is working with Microsoft to understand
an additional feature in Outlook.com which allows users to create email
aliases, which may affect our tasking processes."

The NSA has devoted substantial efforts in the last two years to work with
Microsoft to ensure increased access to Skype, which has an estimated 663
million global users.

One document boasts that Prism monitoring of Skype video production has
roughly tripled since a new capability was added on 14 July 2012. "The audio
portions of these sessions have been processed correctly all along, but
without the accompanying video. Now, analysts will have the complete
'picture'," it says.

Eight months before being bought by Microsoft, Skype joined the Prism program
in February 2011.

According to the NSA documents, work had begun on smoothly integrating Skype
into Prism in November 2010, but it was not until 4 February 2011 that the
company was served with a directive to comply signed by the attorney general.

The NSA was able to start tasking Skype communications the following day, and
collection began on 6 February. "Feedback indicated that a collected Skype
call was very clear and the metadata looked complete," the document stated,
praising the co-operation between NSA teams and the FBI. "Collaborative
teamwork was the key to the successful addition of another provider to the
Prism system."

ACLU technology expert Chris Soghoian said the revelations would surprise
many Skype users. "In the past, Skype made affirmative promises to users
about their inability to perform wiretaps," he said. "It's hard to square
Microsoft's secret collaboration with the NSA with its high-profile efforts
to compete on privacy with Google."

The information the NSA collects from Prism is routinely shared with both the
FBI and CIA. A 3 August 2012 newsletter describes how the NSA has recently
expanded sharing with the other two agencies.

The NSA, the entry reveals, has even automated the sharing of aspects of
Prism, using software that "enables our partners to see which selectors
[search terms] the National Security Agency has tasked to Prism".

The document continues: "The FBI and CIA then can request a copy of Prism
collection of any selector?" As a result, the author notes: "these two
activities underscore the point that Prism is a team sport!"

In its statement to the Guardian, Microsoft said:

    We have clear principles which guide the response across our entire
company to government demands for customer information for both law
enforcement and national security issues. First, we take our commitments to
our customers and to compliance with applicable law very seriously, so we
provide customer data only in response to legal processes.

    Second, our compliance team examines all demands very closely, and we
reject them if we believe they aren't valid. Third, we only ever comply with
orders about specific accounts or identifiers, and we would not respond to
the kind of blanket orders discussed in the press over the past few weeks, as
the volumes documented in our most recent disclosure clearly illustrate.

    Finally when we upgrade or update products legal obligations may in some
circumstances require that we maintain the ability to provide information in
response to a law enforcement or national security request. There are aspects
of this debate that we wish we were able to discuss more freely. That's why
we've argued for additional transparency that would help everyone understand
and debate these important issues.

In a joint statement, Shawn Turner, spokesman for the director of National
Intelligence, and Judith Emmel, spokeswoman for the NSA, said:

    The articles describe court-ordered surveillance ? and a US company's
efforts to comply with these legally mandated requirements. The US operates
its programs under a strict oversight regime, with careful monitoring by the
courts, Congress and the Director of National Intelligence. Not all countries
have equivalent oversight requirements to protect civil liberties and
privacy.

They added: "In practice, US companies put energy, focus and commitment into
consistently protecting the privacy of their customers around the world,
while meeting their obligations under the laws of the US and other countries
in which they operate."



From mrjones2020 at gmail.com  Thu Jul 11 22:03:45 2013
From: mrjones2020 at gmail.com (J.R. Jones)
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2013 18:03:45 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Revealed: how Microsoft handed the NSA access to
	encrypted messages
In-Reply-To: <20130711194047.GM24217@leitl.org>
References: <20130711194047.GM24217@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <CADDVf2JYrRmguvUv=vqug-f8gjfh5T0bAd5r1uF37nVrMJQN5Q@mail.gmail.com>

What OS do you run?
On Jul 11, 2013 3:41 PM, "Eugen Leitl" <eugen at leitl.org> wrote:

>
>
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/11/microsoft-nsa-collaboration-user-data
>
>
> Revealed: how Microsoft handed the NSA access to encrypted messages
>
> ? Secret files show scale of Silicon Valley co-operation on Prism
>
> ? Outlook.com encryption unlocked even before official launch
>
> ? Skype worked to enable Prism collection of video calls
>
> ? Company says it is legally compelled to comply
>
> Glenn Greenwald, Ewen MacAskill, Laura Poitras, Spencer Ackerman and
> Dominic Rushe   guardian.co.uk, Thursday 11 July 2013 18.53 BST
>
> Skype logo
>
> Skype worked with intelligence agencies last year to allow Prism to collect
> video and audio conversations. Photograph: Patrick Sinkel/AP
>
> Microsoft has collaborated closely with US intelligence services to allow
> users' communications to be intercepted, including helping the National
> Security Agency to circumvent the company's own encryption, according to
> top-secret documents obtained by the Guardian.
>
> The files provided by Edward Snowden illustrate the scale of co-operation
> between Silicon Valley and the intelligence agencies over the last three
> years. They also shed new light on the workings of the top-secret Prism
> program, which was disclosed by the Guardian and the Washington Post last
> month.
>
> The documents show that:
>
> ? Microsoft helped the NSA to circumvent its encryption to address concerns
> that the agency would be unable to intercept web chats on the new
> Outlook.com
> portal;
>
> ? The agency already had pre-encryption stage access to email on
> Outlook.com,
> including Hotmail;
>
> ? The company worked with the FBI this year to allow the NSA easier access
> via Prism to its cloud storage service SkyDrive, which now has more than
> 250
> million users worldwide;
>
> ? Microsoft also worked with the FBI's Data Intercept Unit to "understand"
> potential issues with a feature in Outlook.com that allows users to create
> email aliases;
>
> ? Skype, which was bought by Microsoft in October 2011, worked with
> intelligence agencies last year to allow Prism to collect video of
> conversations as well as audio;
>
> ? Material collected through Prism is routinely shared with the FBI and
> CIA,
> with one NSA document describing the program as a "team sport".
>
> The latest NSA revelations further expose the tensions between Silicon
> Valley
> and the Obama administration. All the major tech firms are lobbying the
> government to allow them to disclose more fully the extent and nature of
> their co-operation with the NSA to meet their customers' privacy concerns.
> Privately, tech executives are at pains to distance themselves from claims
> of
> collaboration and teamwork given by the NSA documents, and insist the
> process
> is driven by legal compulsion.
>
> In a statement, Microsoft said: "When we upgrade or update products we
> aren't
> absolved from the need to comply with existing or future lawful demands."
> The
> company reiterated its argument that it provides customer data "only in
> response to government demands and we only ever comply with orders for
> requests about specific accounts or identifiers".
>
> In June, the Guardian revealed that the NSA claimed to have "direct access"
> through the Prism program to the systems of many major internet companies,
> including Microsoft, Skype, Apple, Google, Facebook and Yahoo.
>
> Blanket orders from the secret surveillance court allow these
> communications
> to be collected without an individual warrant if the NSA operative has a
> 51%
> belief that the target is not a US citizen and is not on US soil at the
> time.
> Targeting US citizens does require an individual warrant, but the NSA is
> able
> to collect Americans' communications without a warrant if the target is a
> foreign national located overseas.
>
> Since Prism's existence became public, Microsoft and the other companies
> listed on the NSA documents as providers have denied all knowledge of the
> program and insisted that the intelligence agencies do not have back doors
> into their systems.
>
> Microsoft's latest marketing campaign, launched in April, emphasizes its
> commitment to privacy with the slogan: "Your privacy is our priority."
>
> Similarly, Skype's privacy policy states: "Skype is committed to respecting
> your privacy and the confidentiality of your personal data, traffic data
> and
> communications content."
>
> But internal NSA newsletters, marked top secret, suggest the co-operation
> between the intelligence community and the companies is deep and ongoing.
>
> The latest documents come from the NSA's Special Source Operations (SSO)
> division, described by Snowden as the "crown jewel" of the agency. It is
> responsible for all programs aimed at US communications systems through
> corporate partnerships such as Prism.
>
> The files show that the NSA became concerned about the interception of
> encrypted chats on Microsoft's Outlook.com portal from the moment the
> company
> began testing the service in July last year.
>
> Within five months, the documents explain, Microsoft and the FBI had come
> up
> with a solution that allowed the NSA to circumvent encryption on
> Outlook.com
> chats
>
> A newsletter entry dated 26 December 2012 states: "MS [Microsoft], working
> with the FBI, developed a surveillance capability to deal" with the issue.
> "These solutions were successfully tested and went live 12 Dec 2012."
>
> Two months later, in February this year, Microsoft officially launched the
> Outlook.com portal.
>
> Another newsletter entry stated that NSA already had pre-encryption access
> to
> Outlook email. "For Prism collection against Hotmail, Live, and Outlook.com
> emails will be unaffected because Prism collects this data prior to
> encryption."
>
> Microsoft's co-operation was not limited to Outlook.com. An entry dated 8
> April 2013 describes how the company worked "for many months" with the FBI
> ?
> which acts as the liaison between the intelligence agencies and Silicon
> Valley on Prism ? to allow Prism access without separate authorization to
> its
> cloud storage service SkyDrive.
>
> The document describes how this access "means that analysts will no longer
> have to make a special request to SSO for this ? a process step that many
> analysts may not have known about".
>
> The NSA explained that "this new capability will result in a much more
> complete and timely collection response". It continued: "This success is
> the
> result of the FBI working for many months with Microsoft to get this
> tasking
> and collection solution established."
>
> A separate entry identified another area for collaboration. "The FBI Data
> Intercept Technology Unit (DITU) team is working with Microsoft to
> understand
> an additional feature in Outlook.com which allows users to create email
> aliases, which may affect our tasking processes."
>
> The NSA has devoted substantial efforts in the last two years to work with
> Microsoft to ensure increased access to Skype, which has an estimated 663
> million global users.
>
> One document boasts that Prism monitoring of Skype video production has
> roughly tripled since a new capability was added on 14 July 2012. "The
> audio
> portions of these sessions have been processed correctly all along, but
> without the accompanying video. Now, analysts will have the complete
> 'picture'," it says.
>
> Eight months before being bought by Microsoft, Skype joined the Prism
> program
> in February 2011.
>
> According to the NSA documents, work had begun on smoothly integrating
> Skype
> into Prism in November 2010, but it was not until 4 February 2011 that the
> company was served with a directive to comply signed by the attorney
> general.
>
> The NSA was able to start tasking Skype communications the following day,
> and
> collection began on 6 February. "Feedback indicated that a collected Skype
> call was very clear and the metadata looked complete," the document stated,
> praising the co-operation between NSA teams and the FBI. "Collaborative
> teamwork was the key to the successful addition of another provider to the
> Prism system."
>
> ACLU technology expert Chris Soghoian said the revelations would surprise
> many Skype users. "In the past, Skype made affirmative promises to users
> about their inability to perform wiretaps," he said. "It's hard to square
> Microsoft's secret collaboration with the NSA with its high-profile efforts
> to compete on privacy with Google."
>
> The information the NSA collects from Prism is routinely shared with both
> the
> FBI and CIA. A 3 August 2012 newsletter describes how the NSA has recently
> expanded sharing with the other two agencies.
>
> The NSA, the entry reveals, has even automated the sharing of aspects of
> Prism, using software that "enables our partners to see which selectors
> [search terms] the National Security Agency has tasked to Prism".
>
> The document continues: "The FBI and CIA then can request a copy of Prism
> collection of any selector?" As a result, the author notes: "these two
> activities underscore the point that Prism is a team sport!"
>
> In its statement to the Guardian, Microsoft said:
>
>     We have clear principles which guide the response across our entire
> company to government demands for customer information for both law
> enforcement and national security issues. First, we take our commitments to
> our customers and to compliance with applicable law very seriously, so we
> provide customer data only in response to legal processes.
>
>     Second, our compliance team examines all demands very closely, and we
> reject them if we believe they aren't valid. Third, we only ever comply
> with
> orders about specific accounts or identifiers, and we would not respond to
> the kind of blanket orders discussed in the press over the past few weeks,
> as
> the volumes documented in our most recent disclosure clearly illustrate.
>
>     Finally when we upgrade or update products legal obligations may in
> some
> circumstances require that we maintain the ability to provide information
> in
> response to a law enforcement or national security request. There are
> aspects
> of this debate that we wish we were able to discuss more freely. That's why
> we've argued for additional transparency that would help everyone
> understand
> and debate these important issues.
>
> In a joint statement, Shawn Turner, spokesman for the director of National
> Intelligence, and Judith Emmel, spokeswoman for the NSA, said:
>
>     The articles describe court-ordered surveillance ? and a US company's
> efforts to comply with these legally mandated requirements. The US operates
> its programs under a strict oversight regime, with careful monitoring by
> the
> courts, Congress and the Director of National Intelligence. Not all
> countries
> have equivalent oversight requirements to protect civil liberties and
> privacy.
>
> They added: "In practice, US companies put energy, focus and commitment
> into
> consistently protecting the privacy of their customers around the world,
> while meeting their obligations under the laws of the US and other
> countries
> in which they operate."
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From gts_2000 at yahoo.com  Fri Jul 12 00:28:07 2013
From: gts_2000 at yahoo.com (Gordon)
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2013 17:28:07 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] [mta] Re:  Bitcion Moore's Law?
In-Reply-To: <51D59C6C.6000105@canonizer.com>
References: <51C7CDC8.7060709@canonizer.com>
 <1372050277.1634.YahooMailNeo@web121204.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <51D4E0D7.5080501@canonizer.com>
 <CAB2H9XK6bg-8_K75YiwSc_pX+bd1nZtxPJNCrVr9XteEmQNccg@mail.gmail.com>
 <51D59C6C.6000105@canonizer.com>
Message-ID: <1373588887.76213.YahooMailNeo@web121204.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

Bitcoin has acted almost like a full-fledged currency on the international markets of late. Instead of the wild, speculative price swings of a few months back, it has traded as if inversely correlated with the DXY (The DXY is the USD verses a basket of major currencies of US trading partners). As DXY rallied over the last couple of months, BTC declined. A few days ago, in response to the FED minutes, DXY took a sharp dive while BTC enjoyed a strong rally. 

Brent Allsop:


>>As you can see in this historical graph of Bitcoin valuation
      growth: http://canonizer.com/topic.asp/154/2.? It has so far followed more of a Moore's law than almost anything else.? So how much more of this kind of Moore's Law Growth will be required before you'll jump camps and admit that there is a Moore's Law like growth in value of Bitcoins?<<

Moore's Law is mostly about technological progress. Bitcoin is a commodity, albeit a unique one. It is something like a hybrid between a precious metal and an ordinary currency. 
?
You mentioned in one of your messages that you believe there is also a Moore's Law for gold. If that is the case then how do you explain that the price of gold languished for something like 20 years commencing in about 1980? Where was the Moore's Law for gold during all those years?

Gordon
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From brent.allsop at canonizer.com  Fri Jul 12 02:41:44 2013
From: brent.allsop at canonizer.com (Brent Allsop)
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2013 20:41:44 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Canonizer.com progress
Message-ID: <51DF6CE8.4030605@canonizer.com>


Folks,

We've seen significant success by 'canonizing' theories of 
consciousness, significantly amplifying everyone's wisdom in this 
field.  Does anyone remember how everyone once hated anyone even 
mentioning the word 'qualia' in these forums?  That problem is now 
completely solved, and people just point to what camp they are in, 
without starting the war all over again, significantly amplifying all of 
our theoretical wisdom on this topic.

We are now adding a new topic to focus on, namely the Crypto Currency 
Survey Project.  Like consciousness, there is much disagreement in this 
new field, and most people are following one extreme, or the other, 
getting many things completely wrong, or at best focusing on what 
doesn't matter, while completely missing what is critically important.  
There is no good source of reliable information about what is and isn't 
important, just volumes and volumes of mistaken bleating noise.  So our 
goal is to make Canonizer.com the best and most trusted source of 
reliable information about what is the best currency 
http://canonizer.com/topic.asp/150, how much will Bitcoins be worth in 
one year: http://canonizer.com/topic.asp/154 and so on.  We're already 
seeing far more traction and interest with this topic than we got when 
the Consciousness Survey Project was first getting started.

We're getting ready to publish the results of the Consciousness Survey 
Project, make presentations at Bitcoin conferences, and so on, which 
should enable us to get enough traction to take things to the next 
level.  However, as so many of you are so quick to point out, there are 
still many problems with the still prototype system, and much work to be 
done before we can do these kinds of things successfully.

So as always, we're wondering if anyone would be interested in helping 
out with anything.  Many of you have already made significant 
contributions, for which Canonizer.com wouldn't have been possible 
without.  All such contributions have been recognized with "Shares" of 
Canonizer LLC. (see http://canonizer.com/topic.asp/4 for more details 
and disclaimers). Anyone can help with anything you think is important, 
but here are a few of the things we desperately need help with:


1. Cleaning up the current problematic e-mail handling system.
2. Completing a migration out of our basement to a real hosting system 
witch I'm really struggling with.
3. Long term, we want to migrate to the Open Shift's Platform as a 
Service system.  (Open Shift has offered us free hosting space) This is 
a great educational opportunity to easily learn the future of scalable 
hosted system deployment for anyone interested, and would enable 
Canonizer.com to easily and quickly scale to Wikipedia type size.
4. Lots more easy (at least for system experts) and hard things that 
need to be done, especially with the UX.


Canonizer.com is obviously showing how Transhumanist the drowned out 
minority expert consensus is, even within religious organizations. This 
is the tool we need to help the still minority expert opinion to be 
finally heard above the primitive bleating mistaken herding masses, and 
get something done.  Just talking doesn't help, but nobody can ignore 
groups speaking in a unified expert consensus voice where everyone is 
communicating concisely and quantitatively.

Upwards,

Brent Allsop


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From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Fri Jul 12 03:04:15 2013
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2013 20:04:15 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Power sats again
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB5ZXySxwTXiDcc-6+c2jWmRYMMVDiaFRL=2zmhe6gZHNw@mail.gmail.com>

Gave an hour talk at Google today on the new breakthroughs that have
reduced the startup cost to $60 B, the time to first power sat on line
to ~7 years and raised the ten year ROI to 500%.  It also has the
potential to keep the CO2 somewhat below 450 ppm.

Was well received.

I can send a draft of the article the talk was based on if anyone is interested.

Keith


From msd001 at gmail.com  Fri Jul 12 04:16:35 2013
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2013 00:16:35 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Power sats again
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB5ZXySxwTXiDcc-6+c2jWmRYMMVDiaFRL=2zmhe6gZHNw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB5ZXySxwTXiDcc-6+c2jWmRYMMVDiaFRL=2zmhe6gZHNw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOJFdbK1SBAEqXcWVKbssZFjQfa-ejeo4V=TV-oBa-PLXtekHQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jul 11, 2013 at 11:04 PM, Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> wrote:
> Gave an hour talk at Google today on the new breakthroughs that have
> reduced the startup cost to $60 B, the time to first power sat on line
> to ~7 years and raised the ten year ROI to 500%.  It also has the
> potential to keep the CO2 somewhat below 450 ppm.
>
> Was well received.
>
> I can send a draft of the article the talk was based on if anyone is interested.

I don't know how many requests you typically get for your drafts & such...

I'm always interested.  I'm frequently unqualified.

You have a standing invitation to share (direct my inbox) anything you
write.  I just can't guarantee I have much more feedback than "thanks"
 :)


From eugen at leitl.org  Fri Jul 12 12:43:17 2013
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2013 14:43:17 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Revealed: how Microsoft handed the NSA access to
 encrypted messages
In-Reply-To: <CADDVf2JYrRmguvUv=vqug-f8gjfh5T0bAd5r1uF37nVrMJQN5Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20130711194047.GM24217@leitl.org>
 <CADDVf2JYrRmguvUv=vqug-f8gjfh5T0bAd5r1uF37nVrMJQN5Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20130712124317.GV24217@leitl.org>

On Thu, Jul 11, 2013 at 06:03:45PM -0400, J.R. Jones wrote:
> What OS do you run?

I'm OS-agnostic, but for sake of security on the desktop I 
would today pick Debian (Mint, assuming they fixed their
security update story), or FreeBSD, and use
virtualization to compartmentalize potential compromises
(e.g. using thin hypervisors as well as lightweight
virtualization (shared kernel)) as well as app level
hardening. You can use amnesiac distros on bare metal
(e.g. Tails) to make really sure (though of course
your hardware could be owned, so you better make
sure you pick the right platform -- e.g. coreboot
VIA board with a C7, or a Lemote).

There are much more secure operating systems (e.g.
capability-based ones) but they're far more difficult
to make work -- there's always the tradeoff of usability
versus security.

> On Jul 11, 2013 3:41 PM, "Eugen Leitl" <eugen at leitl.org> wrote:
> 
> >
> >
> > http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/11/microsoft-nsa-collaboration-user-data
> >
> >
> > Revealed: how Microsoft handed the NSA access to encrypted messages
> >
> > ? Secret files show scale of Silicon Valley co-operation on Prism
> >
> > ? Outlook.com encryption unlocked even before official launch
> >
> > ? Skype worked to enable Prism collection of video calls
> >
> > ? Company says it is legally compelled to comply
> >
> > Glenn Greenwald, Ewen MacAskill, Laura Poitras, Spencer Ackerman and
> > Dominic Rushe   guardian.co.uk, Thursday 11 July 2013 18.53 BST
> >
> > Skype logo
> >
> > Skype worked with intelligence agencies last year to allow Prism to collect
> > video and audio conversations. Photograph: Patrick Sinkel/AP
> >
> > Microsoft has collaborated closely with US intelligence services to allow
> > users' communications to be intercepted, including helping the National
> > Security Agency to circumvent the company's own encryption, according to
> > top-secret documents obtained by the Guardian.
> >
> > The files provided by Edward Snowden illustrate the scale of co-operation
> > between Silicon Valley and the intelligence agencies over the last three
> > years. They also shed new light on the workings of the top-secret Prism
> > program, which was disclosed by the Guardian and the Washington Post last
> > month.
> >
> > The documents show that:
> >
> > ? Microsoft helped the NSA to circumvent its encryption to address concerns
> > that the agency would be unable to intercept web chats on the new
> > Outlook.com
> > portal;
> >
> > ? The agency already had pre-encryption stage access to email on
> > Outlook.com,
> > including Hotmail;
> >
> > ? The company worked with the FBI this year to allow the NSA easier access
> > via Prism to its cloud storage service SkyDrive, which now has more than
> > 250
> > million users worldwide;
> >
> > ? Microsoft also worked with the FBI's Data Intercept Unit to "understand"
> > potential issues with a feature in Outlook.com that allows users to create
> > email aliases;
> >
> > ? Skype, which was bought by Microsoft in October 2011, worked with
> > intelligence agencies last year to allow Prism to collect video of
> > conversations as well as audio;
> >
> > ? Material collected through Prism is routinely shared with the FBI and
> > CIA,
> > with one NSA document describing the program as a "team sport".
> >
> > The latest NSA revelations further expose the tensions between Silicon
> > Valley
> > and the Obama administration. All the major tech firms are lobbying the
> > government to allow them to disclose more fully the extent and nature of
> > their co-operation with the NSA to meet their customers' privacy concerns.
> > Privately, tech executives are at pains to distance themselves from claims
> > of
> > collaboration and teamwork given by the NSA documents, and insist the
> > process
> > is driven by legal compulsion.
> >
> > In a statement, Microsoft said: "When we upgrade or update products we
> > aren't
> > absolved from the need to comply with existing or future lawful demands."
> > The
> > company reiterated its argument that it provides customer data "only in
> > response to government demands and we only ever comply with orders for
> > requests about specific accounts or identifiers".
> >
> > In June, the Guardian revealed that the NSA claimed to have "direct access"
> > through the Prism program to the systems of many major internet companies,
> > including Microsoft, Skype, Apple, Google, Facebook and Yahoo.
> >
> > Blanket orders from the secret surveillance court allow these
> > communications
> > to be collected without an individual warrant if the NSA operative has a
> > 51%
> > belief that the target is not a US citizen and is not on US soil at the
> > time.
> > Targeting US citizens does require an individual warrant, but the NSA is
> > able
> > to collect Americans' communications without a warrant if the target is a
> > foreign national located overseas.
> >
> > Since Prism's existence became public, Microsoft and the other companies
> > listed on the NSA documents as providers have denied all knowledge of the
> > program and insisted that the intelligence agencies do not have back doors
> > into their systems.
> >
> > Microsoft's latest marketing campaign, launched in April, emphasizes its
> > commitment to privacy with the slogan: "Your privacy is our priority."
> >
> > Similarly, Skype's privacy policy states: "Skype is committed to respecting
> > your privacy and the confidentiality of your personal data, traffic data
> > and
> > communications content."
> >
> > But internal NSA newsletters, marked top secret, suggest the co-operation
> > between the intelligence community and the companies is deep and ongoing.
> >
> > The latest documents come from the NSA's Special Source Operations (SSO)
> > division, described by Snowden as the "crown jewel" of the agency. It is
> > responsible for all programs aimed at US communications systems through
> > corporate partnerships such as Prism.
> >
> > The files show that the NSA became concerned about the interception of
> > encrypted chats on Microsoft's Outlook.com portal from the moment the
> > company
> > began testing the service in July last year.
> >
> > Within five months, the documents explain, Microsoft and the FBI had come
> > up
> > with a solution that allowed the NSA to circumvent encryption on
> > Outlook.com
> > chats
> >
> > A newsletter entry dated 26 December 2012 states: "MS [Microsoft], working
> > with the FBI, developed a surveillance capability to deal" with the issue.
> > "These solutions were successfully tested and went live 12 Dec 2012."
> >
> > Two months later, in February this year, Microsoft officially launched the
> > Outlook.com portal.
> >
> > Another newsletter entry stated that NSA already had pre-encryption access
> > to
> > Outlook email. "For Prism collection against Hotmail, Live, and Outlook.com
> > emails will be unaffected because Prism collects this data prior to
> > encryption."
> >
> > Microsoft's co-operation was not limited to Outlook.com. An entry dated 8
> > April 2013 describes how the company worked "for many months" with the FBI
> > ?
> > which acts as the liaison between the intelligence agencies and Silicon
> > Valley on Prism ? to allow Prism access without separate authorization to
> > its
> > cloud storage service SkyDrive.
> >
> > The document describes how this access "means that analysts will no longer
> > have to make a special request to SSO for this ? a process step that many
> > analysts may not have known about".
> >
> > The NSA explained that "this new capability will result in a much more
> > complete and timely collection response". It continued: "This success is
> > the
> > result of the FBI working for many months with Microsoft to get this
> > tasking
> > and collection solution established."
> >
> > A separate entry identified another area for collaboration. "The FBI Data
> > Intercept Technology Unit (DITU) team is working with Microsoft to
> > understand
> > an additional feature in Outlook.com which allows users to create email
> > aliases, which may affect our tasking processes."
> >
> > The NSA has devoted substantial efforts in the last two years to work with
> > Microsoft to ensure increased access to Skype, which has an estimated 663
> > million global users.
> >
> > One document boasts that Prism monitoring of Skype video production has
> > roughly tripled since a new capability was added on 14 July 2012. "The
> > audio
> > portions of these sessions have been processed correctly all along, but
> > without the accompanying video. Now, analysts will have the complete
> > 'picture'," it says.
> >
> > Eight months before being bought by Microsoft, Skype joined the Prism
> > program
> > in February 2011.
> >
> > According to the NSA documents, work had begun on smoothly integrating
> > Skype
> > into Prism in November 2010, but it was not until 4 February 2011 that the
> > company was served with a directive to comply signed by the attorney
> > general.
> >
> > The NSA was able to start tasking Skype communications the following day,
> > and
> > collection began on 6 February. "Feedback indicated that a collected Skype
> > call was very clear and the metadata looked complete," the document stated,
> > praising the co-operation between NSA teams and the FBI. "Collaborative
> > teamwork was the key to the successful addition of another provider to the
> > Prism system."
> >
> > ACLU technology expert Chris Soghoian said the revelations would surprise
> > many Skype users. "In the past, Skype made affirmative promises to users
> > about their inability to perform wiretaps," he said. "It's hard to square
> > Microsoft's secret collaboration with the NSA with its high-profile efforts
> > to compete on privacy with Google."
> >
> > The information the NSA collects from Prism is routinely shared with both
> > the
> > FBI and CIA. A 3 August 2012 newsletter describes how the NSA has recently
> > expanded sharing with the other two agencies.
> >
> > The NSA, the entry reveals, has even automated the sharing of aspects of
> > Prism, using software that "enables our partners to see which selectors
> > [search terms] the National Security Agency has tasked to Prism".
> >
> > The document continues: "The FBI and CIA then can request a copy of Prism
> > collection of any selector?" As a result, the author notes: "these two
> > activities underscore the point that Prism is a team sport!"
> >
> > In its statement to the Guardian, Microsoft said:
> >
> >     We have clear principles which guide the response across our entire
> > company to government demands for customer information for both law
> > enforcement and national security issues. First, we take our commitments to
> > our customers and to compliance with applicable law very seriously, so we
> > provide customer data only in response to legal processes.
> >
> >     Second, our compliance team examines all demands very closely, and we
> > reject them if we believe they aren't valid. Third, we only ever comply
> > with
> > orders about specific accounts or identifiers, and we would not respond to
> > the kind of blanket orders discussed in the press over the past few weeks,
> > as
> > the volumes documented in our most recent disclosure clearly illustrate.
> >
> >     Finally when we upgrade or update products legal obligations may in
> > some
> > circumstances require that we maintain the ability to provide information
> > in
> > response to a law enforcement or national security request. There are
> > aspects
> > of this debate that we wish we were able to discuss more freely. That's why
> > we've argued for additional transparency that would help everyone
> > understand
> > and debate these important issues.
> >
> > In a joint statement, Shawn Turner, spokesman for the director of National
> > Intelligence, and Judith Emmel, spokeswoman for the NSA, said:
> >
> >     The articles describe court-ordered surveillance ? and a US company's
> > efforts to comply with these legally mandated requirements. The US operates
> > its programs under a strict oversight regime, with careful monitoring by
> > the
> > courts, Congress and the Director of National Intelligence. Not all
> > countries
> > have equivalent oversight requirements to protect civil liberties and
> > privacy.
> >
> > They added: "In practice, US companies put energy, focus and commitment
> > into
> > consistently protecting the privacy of their customers around the world,
> > while meeting their obligations under the laws of the US and other
> > countries
> > in which they operate."
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > extropy-chat mailing list
> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> >

> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

-- 
Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://ativel.com http://postbiota.org
AC894EC5: 38A5 5F46 A4FF 59B8 336B  47EE F46E 3489 AC89 4EC5


From eugen at leitl.org  Fri Jul 12 14:44:45 2013
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2013 16:44:45 +0200
Subject: [ExI] [info] Conscious in the Cloud, August 19th, Los Gatos CA
Message-ID: <20130712144444.GM24217@leitl.org>

----- Forwarded message from Tom Barbalet <tom at nobleape.com> -----

Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2013 21:04:45 -0700
From: Tom Barbalet <tom at nobleape.com>
To: "biota at ccon.org" <biota at ccon.org>, info at postbiota.org
Subject: [info] Conscious in the Cloud, August 19th, Los Gatos CA
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1508)

It looks like Bruce won't be able to make the event. Erik Davis, may replace his trialogue spot.

http://www.meetup.com/Conscious-in-the-Cloud/events/129166602/

Please circulate this invite.

Best regards,

Tom Barbalet.
_______________________________________________
info mailing list
info at postbiota.org
http://postbiota.org/mailman/listinfo/info

----- End forwarded message -----
-- 
Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://ativel.com http://postbiota.org
AC894EC5: 38A5 5F46 A4FF 59B8 336B  47EE F46E 3489 AC89 4EC5


From andymck35 at gmail.com  Sat Jul 13 05:37:57 2013
From: andymck35 at gmail.com (Andrew Mckee)
Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2013 17:37:57 +1200
Subject: [ExI] Revealed: how Microsoft handed the NSA access to
 encrypted messages
In-Reply-To: <CADDVf2JYrRmguvUv=vqug-f8gjfh5T0bAd5r1uF37nVrMJQN5Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20130711194047.GM24217@leitl.org>
 <CADDVf2JYrRmguvUv=vqug-f8gjfh5T0bAd5r1uF37nVrMJQN5Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <op.wz5a9jia0wog37@nikita>

On Fri, 12 Jul 2013 10:03:45 +1200, J.R. Jones <mrjones2020 at gmail.com> wrote:

> What OS do you run?

Technically irrelevant if you happen to be using an Intel cpu of recent vintage, since they each come with a network accessible backdoor in its on chip microcode rom.

Like to leave your modem/router on all the time?, is your PC always on, or left in a software rebootable power state?, have you in the past engaged in anti-government behavior?

If so, then don't be too surprised to find your PC powers itself up in the wee hours with the harddrive rattling away to itself.

I'm afraid the technical means for a certain government to snoop on anyones computer has been around for several years at least.



From rtomek at ceti.pl  Sat Jul 13 16:11:16 2013
From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola)
Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2013 18:11:16 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] Solar-Powered Water Heater made of beer bottles
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1307131810040.8324@tau.ceti.pl>


Meanwhile, in far away country/galaxy:

http://www.slashgear.com/solar-powered-water-heater-made-of-beer-bottles-115673/

Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.      **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home    **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...      **
**                                                                 **
** Tomasz Rola          mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com             **


From rtomek at ceti.pl  Sat Jul 13 16:38:13 2013
From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola)
Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2013 18:38:13 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] Trivia: what links Medea, Fermi and NSA?
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1307131811220.8324@tau.ceti.pl>


Ok,

So, I've gradually become a (very cautious) believer in theory that life 
screws itself in the... foot. The more gentle way of wording it, is "Medea 
hypothesis" - just in case you want to report it to some, ehrm, gentleman. 
It says, the life's inherent properties drive it straight to screwing 
itself. After a while (better late than never, no?), it occurred to me, 
reason may have it the same way. I think there is a pattern here, with 
constant toppling of rigid control structures and reestablishing them over 
and over again. Thus a history reduces itself into circles - what a 
dissapointment. And humanity reduces itself into oblivious mob riding a 
carousel - what a disgust.

There is also a revolving surprise of the elites every time they discover 
lack of control over their henchmen. Well, surprise surprise. I guess they 
wouldn't mind some benevolent idiot stepping in and cleaning the Augean 
stables, so they could nominate new henchmen and start over. A temporary 
solution, after a short moment of truth, will be sweeping under the rug 
and keeping current with new sensations, like, return of bikini or 
monokini, or whatever. Sweeping under the rug, this they have mastered, 
for sure.

Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.      **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home    **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...      **
**                                                                 **
** Tomasz Rola          mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com             **


From atymes at gmail.com  Sat Jul 13 20:45:21 2013
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2013 13:45:21 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Trivia: what links Medea, Fermi and NSA?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1307131811220.8324@tau.ceti.pl>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1307131811220.8324@tau.ceti.pl>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNTdZg7TX4y=Wh7iPCEwCKz9AJgTqpjmDghudpS7ctX+DQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Jul 13, 2013 at 9:38 AM, Tomasz Rola <rtomek at ceti.pl> wrote:

> The more gentle way of wording it, is "Medea
> hypothesis" - just in case you want to report it to some, ehrm, gentleman.
> It says, the life's inherent properties drive it straight to screwing
> itself. After a while (better late than never, no?), it occurred to me,
> reason may have it the same way. I think there is a pattern here, with
> constant toppling of rigid control structures and reestablishing them over
> and over again. Thus a history reduces itself into circles - what a
> dissapointment.
>

Even realizing that this problem exists requires wisdom.  Designing
systems of control for society - or, at least, societies that are more
than mere anarchy - that acknowledge this problem, even take
advantage of it...yeah, that's rare.

But it's part of why republics, at least the ones that last for more than
one or two changes of power, appear to be more stable (and therefore
prosperous) than the alternatives.  Not that any existing example is
perfect, just that they've proven overall better.

Still, perhaps there are ways to refine the design further, to prevent
other modes of failure?
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From atymes at gmail.com  Sat Jul 13 21:09:22 2013
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2013 14:09:22 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Revealed: how Microsoft handed the NSA access to
	encrypted messages
In-Reply-To: <op.wz5a9jia0wog37@nikita>
References: <20130711194047.GM24217@leitl.org>
 <CADDVf2JYrRmguvUv=vqug-f8gjfh5T0bAd5r1uF37nVrMJQN5Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <op.wz5a9jia0wog37@nikita>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNTBw1ja4qoj36Uo4e3XBhtw4d+9fNbCZY1869qzvFT7zw@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jul 12, 2013 at 10:37 PM, Andrew Mckee <andymck35 at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Fri, 12 Jul 2013 10:03:45 +1200, J.R. Jones <mrjones2020 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>  What OS do you run?
>>
>
> Technically irrelevant if you happen to be using an Intel cpu of recent
> vintage, since they each come with a network accessible backdoor in its on
> chip microcode rom.
>

Source?  That smells like something people claim, but things actually don't
work that way.  TCP/IP parts of most systems are separate from the CPU -
and are, in fact, part of the OS.
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From andymck35 at gmail.com  Sun Jul 14 11:09:58 2013
From: andymck35 at gmail.com (Andrew Mckee)
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2013 23:09:58 +1200
Subject: [ExI] Revealed: how Microsoft handed the NSA access to
 encrypted messages
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNTBw1ja4qoj36Uo4e3XBhtw4d+9fNbCZY1869qzvFT7zw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20130711194047.GM24217@leitl.org>
 <CADDVf2JYrRmguvUv=vqug-f8gjfh5T0bAd5r1uF37nVrMJQN5Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <op.wz5a9jia0wog37@nikita>
 <CALAdGNTBw1ja4qoj36Uo4e3XBhtw4d+9fNbCZY1869qzvFT7zw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <op.wz7lawx90wog37@nikita>

On Sun, 14 Jul 2013 09:09:22 +1200, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:


> Source?  That smells like something people claim, but things actually don't
> work that way.  TCP/IP parts of most systems are separate from the CPU -
> and are, in fact, part of the OS.

It was an announcement directly by Intel themselves several years or so back.

I happened to remember it because I was using the software in question to manage headless render nodes where I happened to work at the time.

Handy to have client software pre-installed at the factory for those managing a room full of servers, but It seemed to raise the eyebrows of some I knew, since the whole Clipper chip - US government back door spying proposal was still fresh in peoples minds.

Having witnessed  the mouse pointer come alive on a laptop sitting on a table with nobody near it, open windows and start rifling through the contents on its harddrive until it's horrified owner ripped the 3G modem out of its USB slot, makes me think that on chip backdoors are alive and well.

Well that, and the recent televised testimony of an anti- nuke campaigner claiming amongst other things, less than subtle mail opening, stolen flash drives, and their PC mysteriously turning itself on in the middle of the night.

If you want private communications I'd suggest using invisible ink and a carrier pigeon.  :-)



 


From pharos at gmail.com  Sun Jul 14 11:42:58 2013
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2013 12:42:58 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Revealed: how Microsoft handed the NSA access to
	encrypted messages
In-Reply-To: <op.wz7lawx90wog37@nikita>
References: <20130711194047.GM24217@leitl.org>
 <CADDVf2JYrRmguvUv=vqug-f8gjfh5T0bAd5r1uF37nVrMJQN5Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <op.wz5a9jia0wog37@nikita>
 <CALAdGNTBw1ja4qoj36Uo4e3XBhtw4d+9fNbCZY1869qzvFT7zw@mail.gmail.com>
 <op.wz7lawx90wog37@nikita>
Message-ID: <CAL_armjSS_0_wudpN-24wyT_zFiOpjs-_N1EFd2oiK469V4XRQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jul 14, 2013 at 12:09 PM, Andrew Mckee  wrote:
> It was an announcement directly by Intel themselves several years or so
> back.
>
> I happened to remember it because I was using the software in question to
> manage headless render nodes where I happened to work at the time.
>
>

I think you are talking about Intel? Active Management Technology (Intel? AMT).

This is a feature demanded by corporate networks to enable remote
administration of networked computers by administrators.

<http://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/architecture-and-technology/vpro/vpro-technology-general.html>
<http://www.intel.com/technology/vpro/privacy/>


If you are using a corporate pc or laptop linked to their network, it
is not *your* computer. You are temporarily using a company owned and
maintained pc for business use. If you (mis)use company equipment for
personal purposes, then you should expect consequences in some cases.
Not all, it depends on the company policy.

If it is your own pc, you should make sure that AMT features are
switched off in the BIOS.

There are virus infections which also allow remote control of pcs, so
Windows antivirus and antimalware software is recommended. Even better
to use Linux Mint with hardware and software firewalls.

BillK



From andymck35 at gmail.com  Sun Jul 14 12:13:10 2013
From: andymck35 at gmail.com (Andrew Mckee)
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2013 00:13:10 +1200
Subject: [ExI] Revealed: how Microsoft handed the NSA access to
 encrypted messages
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNTBw1ja4qoj36Uo4e3XBhtw4d+9fNbCZY1869qzvFT7zw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20130711194047.GM24217@leitl.org>
 <CADDVf2JYrRmguvUv=vqug-f8gjfh5T0bAd5r1uF37nVrMJQN5Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <op.wz5a9jia0wog37@nikita>
 <CALAdGNTBw1ja4qoj36Uo4e3XBhtw4d+9fNbCZY1869qzvFT7zw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <op.wz7n78qv0wog37@nikita>

On Sun, 14 Jul 2013 09:09:22 +1200, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:

> Source?  That smells like something people claim, but things actually don't
> work that way.  TCP/IP parts of most systems are separate from the CPU -
> and are, in fact, part of the OS.

Sorry for the double reply, but just did a quick Google and found this if you want to know more...

http://www.realvnc.com/company/press/news/intel-kvm.html

So the questions PC users have to ask is - is this software embedded on just the Vpro core CPUs, or do all Intel Core CPUs have this software on die, and Intel keeps quite about that fact.
Except for providing say all Five Eyes spy agencies with a secret backdoor universal login.

With all the news going on lately regarding  global snooping I fear the answer is the not the one we computer users would most like to hear.

I would of course love to be proven conclusively wrong about all this.

Anyone?



 


From andymck35 at gmail.com  Sun Jul 14 13:36:10 2013
From: andymck35 at gmail.com (Andrew Mckee)
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2013 01:36:10 +1200
Subject: [ExI] Revealed: how Microsoft handed the NSA access to
 encrypted messages
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armjSS_0_wudpN-24wyT_zFiOpjs-_N1EFd2oiK469V4XRQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20130711194047.GM24217@leitl.org>
 <CADDVf2JYrRmguvUv=vqug-f8gjfh5T0bAd5r1uF37nVrMJQN5Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <op.wz5a9jia0wog37@nikita>
 <CALAdGNTBw1ja4qoj36Uo4e3XBhtw4d+9fNbCZY1869qzvFT7zw@mail.gmail.com>
 <op.wz7lawx90wog37@nikita>
 <CAL_armjSS_0_wudpN-24wyT_zFiOpjs-_N1EFd2oiK469V4XRQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <op.wz7r2kio0wog37@nikita>

On Sun, 14 Jul 2013 23:42:58 +1200, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:

> I think you are talking about Intel? Active Management Technology (Intel? AMT).

Nope, just a free variant of VNC back then, Intel presumably licensed it and gave it a makeover.

> This is a feature demanded by corporate networks to enable remote
> administration of networked computers by administrators.

Sure, not saying it doesn't have a good use in business IT, just saying it could also be embedded in every Intel Core powered PC out in the big wide world, and if they are connected to the internet what exactly is preventing unauthorized malicious backdoor snooping and/or modification of those PCs?
As far as I can tell, nothing but the restraint on the part of the western worlds spooks and Intel.

> <http://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/architecture-and-technology/vpro/vpro-technology-general.html>
> <http://www.intel.com/technology/vpro/privacy/>

> If you are using a corporate pc or laptop linked to their network, it
> is not *your* computer. You are temporarily using a company owned and
> maintained pc for business use. If you (mis)use company equipment for
> personal purposes, then you should expect consequences in some cases.
> Not all, it depends on the company policy.

In both cases it was a persons personal PC not connected to a business network or used in a corperate setting, just the owners regular internet connection, over which some unknown 'external' agency used to conduct likely unlawful and unwanted business.

> If it is your own pc, you should make sure that AMT features are
> switched off in the BIOS.

Yeeeh, kinda a small problem with that advice if Intel are indeed cooperating with spy agencies to enable backdoor access to PCs.
Since there would likely be no BIOS options for it would there?

But even if there was, it wouldn't make a damn bit of difference, since by being included on die the VNC /AMT software can operate at a level even below the PCs  bootstrap and BIOS flash memory.

> There are virus infections which also allow remote control of pcs, so
> Windows antivirus and antimalware software is recommended. Even better
> to use Linux Mint with hardware and software firewalls.

Sure, usually general good advice, but the threat I'm talking about operates essentially at the hardware level,  so OS, and whatever software you care to name have been rendered useless.

Hardware is an interesting question, the Chinese spy agency manged to get network backdoorable chips into the routers Huawai has been selling to the world, the US government leaned on and received complete co-operation by some of the US's biggest  Internet, software and telecoms corporations to spy on internet users everywhere, are you really so confidant that they left networking infrastructure companies off that list.



From pharos at gmail.com  Sun Jul 14 14:11:01 2013
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2013 15:11:01 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Revealed: how Microsoft handed the NSA access to
	encrypted messages
In-Reply-To: <op.wz7r2kio0wog37@nikita>
References: <20130711194047.GM24217@leitl.org>
 <CADDVf2JYrRmguvUv=vqug-f8gjfh5T0bAd5r1uF37nVrMJQN5Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <op.wz5a9jia0wog37@nikita>
 <CALAdGNTBw1ja4qoj36Uo4e3XBhtw4d+9fNbCZY1869qzvFT7zw@mail.gmail.com>
 <op.wz7lawx90wog37@nikita>
 <CAL_armjSS_0_wudpN-24wyT_zFiOpjs-_N1EFd2oiK469V4XRQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <op.wz7r2kio0wog37@nikita>
Message-ID: <CAL_armhkKMe=wS4KPNZUPaC6aL4cq9MyV5SyyutznfAvSkNRqQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jul 14, 2013 at 2:36 PM, Andrew Mckee  wrote:
<snip>
> Yeeeh, kinda a small problem with that advice if Intel are indeed
> cooperating with spy agencies to enable backdoor access to PCs.
> Since there would likely be no BIOS options for it would there?
>
> But even if there was, it wouldn't make a damn bit of difference, since by
> being included on die the VNC /AMT software can operate at a level even
> below the PCs  bootstrap and BIOS flash memory.
>
> Hardware is an interesting question, the Chinese spy agency manged to get
> network backdoorable chips into the routers Huawai has been selling to the
> world, the US government leaned on and received complete co-operation by
> some of the US's biggest  Internet, software and telecoms corporations to
> spy on internet users everywhere, are you really so confidant that they left
> networking infrastructure companies off that list.
>

Well, as you know it is almost impossible to prove a negative.

Let's just say that no known, provable backdoors have been
demonstrated. Outside of known features, like vPro.

And there are other processors on the market besides Intel. If
security was a USP (unique selling point) then companies would be
shouting about it. Conspiracy theory demands that *all* processors
would have NSA backdoors built in.

And people are using and testing these chips continuously. Surely some
researcher, somewhere, would spot an unusual response, or strange
network packets flowing around?

Even on your own laptop you can monitor processes and traffic to see
what is going on. Not just panic every time a background disk defrag
starts up, or your antivirus software does an automatic update without
asking permission.

I'm happy nothing funny is going on with my pc (not a vPro Intel i5 or
i7 processor). But I'm watching!  :)

BillK


From rtomek at ceti.pl  Sun Jul 14 17:41:25 2013
From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola)
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2013 19:41:25 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] Trivia: what links Medea, Fermi and NSA?
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNTdZg7TX4y=Wh7iPCEwCKz9AJgTqpjmDghudpS7ctX+DQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1307131811220.8324@tau.ceti.pl>
 <CALAdGNTdZg7TX4y=Wh7iPCEwCKz9AJgTqpjmDghudpS7ctX+DQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1307141707210.22824@tau.ceti.pl>

On Sat, 13 Jul 2013, Adrian Tymes wrote:

[...]
> But it's part of why republics, at least the ones that last for more 
> than one or two changes of power, appear to be more stable (and 
> therefore prosperous) than the alternatives.  Not that any existing 
> example is perfect, just that they've proven overall better.

Well, I guess there are quite a few implementations of Republic and I am 
not sure if I could like all of them. Assuming I understand the concept, a 
good thing is that as long as one sticks to one's own nose, the Republic 
sticks to its own, too. But I wonder if this rule is followed by every 
implementation. OTOH, if one digs deeper, underneath all the slogan layer 
are arteries of money. I don't know if this is good or bad, but I have the 
feeling slogans are mentioned much more often than arteries and I find it 
interesting. Is there something shameful in the basement?

BTW, Republics decay, too.

> Still, perhaps there are ways to refine the design further, to prevent 
> other modes of failure?

Yeah, great question. I don't know the answer. Heck, I don't even know if 
the problem has been correctly specified. And, you know, solving wrong
problem is a no-no, at least for me (waste of time & energy + possibly 
making a real problem even bigger).

Can the "design" be refined? Perhaps. Maybe a good start would be to say 
the design wasn't really designed, as far as I can tell. Or maybe it was 
designed in old times and nowadays, maybe it is an ongoing improvisation, 
ad hoc plumbing? Should the proposition made in old times be followed in 
modern times? Should a train be adapted for Roman bridges or should a new 
bridge be built?

I think I wouldn't mind being invigilated by folks trained in null-A. I 
cannot imagine my private data abused by them, sold or something. Or being 
wrongly accused of too much thinking - that's not me, I'm too slow for 
thinking too much :-). So, such supervision would not be invited, perhaps, 
but it would have been bearable. [0] [4]

[ 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-Aristotelian_logic#Use_in_science_fiction

]

Can some people be trained to have their priority on problem solving 
rather than ego boosting and self promotion? Myself, I don't look for 
ultimate political system as much as I look for ways to better humans 
without fraking and ruining everything around - something that 20th 
century exercised a little bit, it could have been much worse but still, 
lots of wasted potential. Think of Turing in a world without WW1 and WW2 
and the whole Cold War setup. Maybe he would have died impoverished or 
maybe he would have done something great. [1]

The world of null-A as depicted in a A.E. van Vogt's books is not perfect. 
There is crime, streets of the capital are dangerous place to be at night. 
When thugs get the highest office for themselves and disable Games 
Machine, they announce everybody can come and get whatever he wants and 
guess what, the mob quickly shows up and dismantles the Machine. And the 
Machine itself, performing exams and granting passes to null-A class, have 
been fooled. OTOH, repairing this state of things would have been much 
easier with null-As rounded up and elevated into decision making and other 
positions rather than going the opposite direction. [2]

[5] But, as you can see, I know more questions than answers :-). [3]

[0] Given that individual nowadays is as capable in destruction as USAF 
bomber wing of last WWar and that individual's psyche is so prone to 
distortion (or bad memes), I am sometimes thinking what could be done 
about this. [4]

[1] All right, not every such world would be great. I see not so much 
greatness in continuing existence of colonial powers, for example.

[2] I am not null-A even though the "map is not territory" motto helped me 
a lot and I push myself to use it whenever I remember to. Also, AEvV ave 
for General Semantics is something I have to research more. Given the year 
in which AEvV wrote first null-A book (1948), he gives quite a lot of job 
for trained General Semantists - including building of spaceships (AFAIR) 
and the Games Machine. Or maybe those are null-A trained engineers.

[3] There are and there will be initiatives to wrestle some power from its
current holders. I guess they are going to have long and painful life, 
being plagued by exactly same problems that plague current holders. 
Chances are, everybody inside those movements will consider them to be 
successes or just few steps from it.

[4] The "map is not a territory" should be, IMHO, a required reading for 
every proponent of increased invigilation. 

[

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_map_is_not_the_territory

]

For me, the more or less logical outcome is that increasing inv. will lead 
to building more and more advanced models (lalala, virtual reality land) 
until, finally, they become as detailed as invigilated reality. But I 
wonder if they will be any kind of successful in their stated mission 
This includes usability, ability to get answers before events unfold. Will 
they? [5] [6]

[6] Yes we may be such model for surveilled subjects. Bye bye Singularity 
dream. [5]

Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.      **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home    **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...      **
**                                                                 **
** Tomasz Rola          mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com             **


From eugen at leitl.org  Mon Jul 15 11:31:27 2013
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2013 13:31:27 +0200
Subject: [ExI] [Server-sky]  Power sats again
Message-ID: <20130715113127.GG24217@leitl.org>

----- Forwarded message from Keith Lofstrom <keithl at gate.kl-ic.com> -----

Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2013 13:28:39 -0700
From: Keith Lofstrom <keithl at gate.kl-ic.com>
To: Eugen Leitl <eugen at leitl.org>
Cc: server-sky at server-sky.com
Subject: Re: [Server-sky] [ExI] Power sats again
Reply-To: keithl at keithl.com
User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.2i

On Fri, Jul 12, 2013 at 04:41:05PM +0200, Eugen Leitl wrote:
> ----- Forwarded message from Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> -----
> 
> Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2013 20:04:15 -0700
> From: Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com>
> To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> Subject: [ExI] Power sats again
> Reply-To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> 
> Gave an hour talk at Google today on the new breakthroughs that have
> reduced the startup cost to $60 B, the time to first power sat on line
> to ~7 years and raised the ten year ROI to 500%.  It also has the
> potential to keep the CO2 somewhat below 450 ppm.
> 
> Was well received.
> 
> I can send a draft of the article the talk was based on if anyone is interested.

I would be interested in the assumptions that went into the power
revenue numbers.  The value of electrical power is highly dependent
on time of day.  Here in the Pacific Northwest, power produced at
times of low demand (say 2200 to 0600) can have negative value;
the Bonneville Power Administration pays money to dispose of wind
power produced at these times in resistors in the desert, to avoid
spilling water over the dams and supernitrogenating the water,
damaging the salmon.

Time dispatchable power is very valuable, but the SBSP ground
rectenna systems must be able to receive power from power sats at
low elevation - long east-west dimensions.  Powersats near the
0100 (1AM) position in their GEO orbits will be close to useless.
Rectennas under cloud cover (50% or more of the time) will get
an attenuated beam (with lots of unhealthy off-axis scattering).  

Converting space power to high value product before shipment from
orbit provides much more value.  Google search results generate
revenue of $20 per kilowatt-hour of electricity consumed, while
bulk off-peak power is worth less than $0.04 per kWh.

Keith

-- 
Keith Lofstrom          keithl at keithl.com         Voice (503)-520-1993

----- End forwarded message -----
-- 
Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://ativel.com http://postbiota.org
AC894EC5: 38A5 5F46 A4FF 59B8 336B  47EE F46E 3489 AC89 4EC5


From eugen at leitl.org  Mon Jul 15 11:33:08 2013
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2013 13:33:08 +0200
Subject: [ExI] [Server-sky] Orbital alignment for cubesat experiment
Message-ID: <20130715113308.GJ24217@leitl.org>

----- Forwarded message from Keith Lofstrom <keithl at kl-ic.com> -----

Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2013 13:52:00 -0700
From: Keith Lofstrom <keithl at kl-ic.com>
To: Server Sky - Internet and Computing in Orbit <server-sky at server-sky.com>
Subject: [Server-sky] Orbital alignment for cubesat experiment
User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.2i
Reply-To: keithl at keithl.com

Thinsats are mostly pushed antisunwards by light pressure; 
tilting a thinsat adds less than 8% lateral acceleration. 

Thinsat experiments in a drag-matched cubesat container
will be brief ( a few minutes ) when the sun angle is 
co-linear with the orbit, so that the drag on the cubesat
pushes it in the same direction as the thinsat.

Given the high inclination ISS orbit (51.6?), this only
happens during the sunward or antisunward parts of the orbit,
at times of year when the longitude of the ascending node
of the ISS orbit is sunwards or antisunwards.  The ascending
node precesses because of the earth's equatorial bulge - I
haven't done the calculations yet. 

At other times and in other parts of the orbit, the vectors
don't line up, and experiment times will be limited to the
traverse time of the experimental chamber.  At 8 cm/minute?
from light pressure, that won't be long!

I may find time in a week or two to put some detailed calculations
on the wiki, but it would be great if someone else beat me to it.
It would be really useful to find some historical data on the
precession of the ascending node for ISS, or do the calculation.

The limits on launch time may be too restrictive for most cubesat
opportunities.

Keith

-- 
Keith Lofstrom          keithl at keithl.com         Voice (503)-520-1993
_______________________________________________
Server-sky mailing list
Server-sky at lists.server-sky.com
http://lists.server-sky.com/mailman/listinfo/server-sky

----- End forwarded message -----
-- 
Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://ativel.com http://postbiota.org
AC894EC5: 38A5 5F46 A4FF 59B8 336B  47EE F46E 3489 AC89 4EC5


From bbenzai at yahoo.com  Mon Jul 15 12:27:42 2013
From: bbenzai at yahoo.com (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2013 05:27:42 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Null-A
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1373889601.23684.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.1.1373889601.23684.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <1373891262.18470.YahooMailNeo@web165002.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

Tomasz Rola <rtomek at ceti.pl> mentioned Null-A


Tomasz, have you read Korzybski's 'Science & Sanity'?

I can't recommend it highly enough.

http://www.generalsemantics.org/store/all-books/56-science-and-sanity-an-introduction-to-non-aristotelian-systems-and-general-semantics.html


Ben Zaiboc




From eugen at leitl.org  Mon Jul 15 12:47:03 2013
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2013 14:47:03 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Revealed: how Microsoft handed the NSA access to
 encrypted messages
In-Reply-To: <op.wz5a9jia0wog37@nikita>
References: <20130711194047.GM24217@leitl.org>
 <CADDVf2JYrRmguvUv=vqug-f8gjfh5T0bAd5r1uF37nVrMJQN5Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <op.wz5a9jia0wog37@nikita>
Message-ID: <20130715124703.GF29404@leitl.org>

On Sat, Jul 13, 2013 at 05:37:57PM +1200, Andrew Mckee wrote:
> On Fri, 12 Jul 2013 10:03:45 +1200, J.R. Jones <mrjones2020 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> >What OS do you run?
> 
> Technically irrelevant if you happen to be using an Intel cpu of recent vintage, 
> since they each come with a network accessible backdoor in its on chip microcode rom.

Of course we would like to have trusted hardware. However, compromises
of your NIC, CPU or GPU are not effective if you keep your secrets on
an airgapped machine or network (and go to the point of reducing TEMPEST 
emissions), and use sneakernet to transfer only safe formats.

Paranoia is sure fun, but at some point you have to titrate it
down to functional levels.
 
> Like to leave your modem/router on all the time?, is your PC always on, or left 
>
> in a software rebootable power state?, have you in the past engaged in anti-government behavior?

Of course you're running danger of stepping into a deliberately placed
honeypot, and have your traffic inspected by a wiresharc instance on
a mirror port, watched by a clueful party. 

You typically don't drop a nuke on a toddler in a sandbox, as you can 
only use it once. There are far easier ways to compromise your system
if you control upstream traffic, with some plausible deniability to
boot. 
 
> If so, then don't be too surprised to find your PC powers itself up in the wee hours with the harddrive rattling away to itself.
> 
> I'm afraid the technical means for a certain government to snoop on anyones computer has been around for several years at least.

Not anyone. Most people, yes. Everybody, no.


From anders at aleph.se  Mon Jul 15 09:19:13 2013
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2013 11:19:13 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Neural Dust
Message-ID: <51E3BE91.3080809@aleph.se>

Some fun interface tech:

http://arxiv.org/abs/1307.2196

Neural Dust: An Ultrasonic, Low Power Solution for Chronic Brain-Machine 
Interfaces

Dongjin Seo, Jose M. Carmena, Jan M. Rabaey, Elad Alon, Michel M. Maharbiz

    A major hurdle in brain-machine interfaces (BMI) is the lack of an
    implantable neural interface system that remains viable for a
    lifetime. This paper explores the fundamental system design
    trade-offs and ultimate size, power, and bandwidth scaling limits of
    neural recording systems built from low-power CMOS circuitry coupled
    with ultrasonic power delivery and backscatter communication. In
    particular, we propose an ultra-miniature as well as extremely
    compliant system that enables massive scaling in the number of
    neural recordings from the brain while providing a path towards
    truly chronic BMI. These goals are achieved via two fundamental
    technology innovations: 1) thousands of 10 - 100 \mu m scale,
    free-floating, independent sensor nodes, or neural dust, that detect
    and report local extracellular electrophysiological data, and 2) a
    sub-cranial interrogator that establishes power and communication
    links with the neural dust.

-- 
Dr Anders Sandberg
Future of Humanity Institute
Oxford Martin School
Oxford University

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From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Mon Jul 15 15:24:01 2013
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2013 08:24:01 -0700
Subject: [ExI] [Server-sky] Power sats again
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB6+4LDJkrAWtG+8m21Ps0x7V7KKP+5_P6L5X9DurStB4g@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 5:00 AM,
<extropy-chat-request at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> ----- Forwarded message from Keith Lofstrom <keithl at gate.kl-ic.com> -----

>> From: Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com>

> I would be interested in the assumptions that went into the power
> revenue numbers.

5 cents per kWh declining to 2 cents per kWh over ten years.  These
number are converted to capital cost at 80,000 times the cents per
kWh.  That's ~equal to 6.8% discount over 20 years run though a
levelized cost model.
http://www.eia.gov/forecasts/aeo/electricity_generation.cfm

The economic model doesn't sell electric power, it sells power
satellites to utility companies.

> The value of electrical power is highly dependent
> on time of day.  Here in the Pacific Northwest, power produced at
> times of low demand (say 2200 to 0600) can have negative value;
> the Bonneville Power Administration pays money to dispose of wind
> power produced at these times in resistors in the desert, to avoid
> spilling water over the dams and supernitrogenating the water,
> damaging the salmon.

I should note that hydro is unlikely to ever be displaced by SBSP.

> Time dispatchable power is very valuable, but the SBSP ground
> rectenna systems must be able to receive power from power sats at
> low elevation - long east-west dimensions.  Powersats near the
> 0100 (1AM) position in their GEO orbits will be close to useless.
> Rectennas under cloud cover (50% or more of the time) will get
> an attenuated beam (with lots of unhealthy off-axis scattering).

At 2.45 GHz, clouds don't cause much attenuation.  A heavy rainstorm
will cause some loss.  As you go up in frequency these problems get
worse.  Good point on the value of dispatchable power, but switching a
power sat from one rectenna to another doesn't seem like a good idea.
(Other than backup power sats being switched.)

Given that electric power isn't even the biggest chunk of humanities
energy needs, I think there will be an entirely different mode of
managing the electrical grid.  Load management rather than generation
management.  I.e., generate more power than the peak electrical grid
load, and send everything above current demand to making hydrogen for
synfuel production.

> Converting space power to high value product before shipment from
> orbit provides much more value.  Google search results generate
> revenue of $20 per kilowatt-hour of electricity consumed, while
> bulk off-peak power is worth less than $0.04 per kWh.

Fascinating.  But for all of Google's size, it's not nearly as large
as the energy market.

The market for bulk power, especially if you can convert it to liquid
fuels, is really large.  But it is also intensely price dependent.


From eugen at leitl.org  Mon Jul 15 16:10:21 2013
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2013 18:10:21 +0200
Subject: [ExI] [liberationtech] Secure Android guide?
Message-ID: <20130715161020.GR29404@leitl.org>

----- Forwarded message from Julian Oliver <julian at julianoliver.com> -----

Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2013 16:30:26 +0200
From: Julian Oliver <julian at julianoliver.com>
To: liberationtech <liberationtech at lists.stanford.edu>
Subject: Re: [liberationtech] Secure Android guide?
User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14)
Reply-To: liberationtech <liberationtech at lists.stanford.edu>

..on Sat, Jul 13, 2013 at 03:13:41PM +0200, Jerzy ?ogiewa wrote:
> Hello!
> 
> If I want Android phone and have it be most secure, how to do it? Is there some guide with steps?
> 
> Like this:
> 
> 1- Buy some handset such as X, Y
> 2- Re-flash to Z firmware
> 3- Change P settings to J ...
> 4- Install OrBot, RedPhone, and so on
> 
> What is recommended here by experts?
> 
> PS: I am willing to have device ONLY for secure communications.

Disclaimer: while some journalists/people call me an expert I've never, ever
named myself as such!

Firstly, smartphones are a huge risk if you're really concerned about your
security. Nonetheless, here's a start:

You can install CyanogenMod - and not install the Google suite - for a pleasant
and largely Google-free experience. To be safer, don't install a nightly build.
Take out the SIM card. Flash CyanogenMod using the simple instructions for your
device on their website. Encrypt the file-system once the device is installed.
Set up a 6-or-more line swipe pattern without visual feedback (and keep your
screen clean!). Disable developer mode and MTP browsing, until you need it.
Connect the device to a wireless network you control. Install DroidWall (or
similar open source firewall) and lock down any unknown and/or promiscuous
processes (vastly less with CyanogenMod than Android). Don't use Google Play.
Download and install OopenVPN client and tunnel to your favourite trusted
OpenVPN server. Put on OrBot and run the OrWeb Tor browser.  Edit your exit
nodes to those that suit.  Install Firefox and requisite extensions that protect
against cookie tracking etc. Use StartPage instead of Google as your default
search engine.  Don't install any random games or other software. If you need
something like a PDF reader, be sure it's open source and the APK you download
checksums out (SHA256).

I've done the above, more or less, with my last two Android phones. My SIII is
especially good to work with. I've audited it on the wire and I trust working
with it so far. How you use it is another thing. If you rarely need to make
calls over the cellular network then use Airplane Mode until you need to call -
that'll get you off the grid where cell provider location tracking/logging is
concerned. Better still, don't use a SIM card at all and tunnel/ZRTP VoIP with
something like RedPhone.

Cheers,

-- 
Julian Oliver
PGP B6E9FD9A
http://julianoliver.com
http://criticalengineering.org
--
Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing moderator at companys at stanford.edu or changing your settings at https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech

----- End forwarded message -----
-- 
Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://ativel.com http://postbiota.org
AC894EC5: 38A5 5F46 A4FF 59B8 336B  47EE F46E 3489 AC89 4EC5


From clementlawyer at gmail.com  Mon Jul 15 16:10:49 2013
From: clementlawyer at gmail.com (James Clement)
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2013 12:10:49 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Null-A
In-Reply-To: <1373891262.18470.YahooMailNeo@web165002.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.1.1373889601.23684.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <1373891262.18470.YahooMailNeo@web165002.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CA+LBAbQ=dtmsRgqz9p4oyVEOg_0yhGHLRq5_1QcboYPy4hFmmg@mail.gmail.com>

Ben Zaiboc <bbenzai at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Tomasz, have you read Korzybski's 'Science & Sanity'?
>
> I can't recommend it highly enough.
>
>
> http://www.generalsemantics.org/store/all-books/56-science-and-sanity-an-introduction-to-non-aristotelian-systems-and-general-semantics.html
>
>
A free PDF version, appears here: http://esgs.free.fr/uk/art/sands.htm
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From clementlawyer at gmail.com  Mon Jul 15 16:29:03 2013
From: clementlawyer at gmail.com (James Clement)
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2013 12:29:03 -0400
Subject: [ExI] [liberationtech] Secure Android guide?
In-Reply-To: <20130715161020.GR29404@leitl.org>
References: <20130715161020.GR29404@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <CA+LBAbSQqwppOVDXN+=50q1et-i3hPYFER7MDEdJh1ePEp_+Ag@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 12:10 PM, Eugen Leitl <eugen at leitl.org> wrote:

> concerned. Better still, don't use a SIM card at all and tunnel/ZRTP VoIP
> with
> something like RedPhone.
>
>
Doesn't RedPhone require installation of Google Play? How can you get it
into an otherwise blank, rooted, cyanogenmod'ed phone? Is there a source to
download it from whereby it can be sideloaded to the Android phone?
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From eugen at leitl.org  Mon Jul 15 16:52:21 2013
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2013 18:52:21 +0200
Subject: [ExI] [liberationtech] Secure Android guide?
In-Reply-To: <CA+LBAbSQqwppOVDXN+=50q1et-i3hPYFER7MDEdJh1ePEp_+Ag@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20130715161020.GR29404@leitl.org>
 <CA+LBAbSQqwppOVDXN+=50q1et-i3hPYFER7MDEdJh1ePEp_+Ag@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20130715165221.GW29404@leitl.org>

On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 12:29:03PM -0400, James Clement wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 12:10 PM, Eugen Leitl <eugen at leitl.org> wrote:
> 
> > concerned. Better still, don't use a SIM card at all and tunnel/ZRTP VoIP
> > with
> > something like RedPhone.
> >
> >
> Doesn't RedPhone require installation of Google Play? How can you get it
> into an otherwise blank, rooted, cyanogenmod'ed phone? Is there a source to
> download it from whereby it can be sideloaded to the Android phone?

Good point -- I've been unable to find an .apk straight from the horse's
mouth, so the only other option is to download/git the source  from 
https://github.com/WhisperSystems/RedPhone and to build it yourself,
and side-load the resulting .apk


From atymes at gmail.com  Mon Jul 15 18:07:33 2013
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2013 11:07:33 -0700
Subject: [ExI] [Server-sky] Orbital alignment for cubesat experiment
In-Reply-To: <20130715113308.GJ24217@leitl.org>
References: <20130715113308.GJ24217@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNRsxcszcxejsKZm5MVGYmOp7WCLMOZ4f5FWNhu7_+65Qw@mail.gmail.com>

> The limits on launch time may be too restrictive for most cubesat
> opportunities.

Could you clarify what you mean here?  Is it the limited launch slots
available since you can't (currently) launch a CubeSat as its own mission
without sharing a ride (or paying for massively excess capacity - not an
option)?
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From brent.allsop at canonizer.com  Mon Jul 15 20:14:07 2013
From: brent.allsop at canonizer.com (Brent Allsop)
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2013 14:14:07 -0600
Subject: [ExI] [mta] Re:  Bitcion Moore's Law?
In-Reply-To: <1373588887.76213.YahooMailNeo@web121204.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <51C7CDC8.7060709@canonizer.com>
 <1372050277.1634.YahooMailNeo@web121204.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <51D4E0D7.5080501@canonizer.com>
 <CAB2H9XK6bg-8_K75YiwSc_pX+bd1nZtxPJNCrVr9XteEmQNccg@mail.gmail.com>
 <51D59C6C.6000105@canonizer.com>
 <1373588887.76213.YahooMailNeo@web121204.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAK7-ons7_CgqMv7YcGv8nwzdAmLcoFXYhC-+kJQUNtiwyKj=4Q@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Gordon,

On Thu, Jul 11, 2013 at 6:28 PM, Gordon <gts_2000 at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Bitcoin has acted almost like a full-fledged currency on the international
> markets of late. Instead of the wild, speculative price swings of a few
> months back, it has traded as if inversely correlated with the DXY (The DXY
> is the USD verses a basket of major currencies of US trading partners). As
> DXY rallied over the last couple of months, BTC declined. A few days ago,
> in response to the FED minutes, DXY took a sharp dive while BTC enjoyed a
> strong rally.
>
> Brent Allsop:
>
> >>As you can see in this historical graph of Bitcoin valuation growth:
> http://canonizer.com/topic.asp/154/2.  It has so far followed more of a
> Moore's law than almost anything else.  So how much more of this kind of
> Moore's Law Growth will be required before you'll jump camps and admit that
> there is a Moore's Law like growth in value of Bitcoins?<<
>



Moore's law is simply a small and specific example of the more general
"Kurzweel's law of Accelerating Returns".   Simple exponential growth is
something like rabbits reproducing in an open system and is very
predictable and explainable in simplistic ways.  In an open system, the
only effect is simply the number of rabbits.  While general accelerating
return laws also behave exponentially, it is for very different
inexplicable reasons, and happens within extremely complex systems and
interactions of huge numbers of otherwise unpredictable and noisy effects.
All the cyclical noise, when examined closely, look important.  But when
you stand back, they all become insignificant, compared to the
exponentially accelerating growth and returns of the overall system.
Complex things like economic growth, evolutionary growth, growth in the
number of transistors on a chip, and so on are all examples of not just
simple exponential growth, but accelerating return laws which can't be
simply explained.

Since all economies grow according to the complex accelerating return laws,
any fixed currencies being used in those accelerating growing systems, must
corresponding grow according to the same complex laws of accelerating
returns.  Hence why the emerging expert consensus is now predicting Bitcion
valuations,  must also grow  exponentially, along with these accelerating
return like laws, and that all other effects on the price will simply
become irrelevant noise, in the long term.



>
> Moore's Law is mostly about technological progress. Bitcoin is a
> commodity, albeit a unique one. It is something like a hybrid between a
> precious metal and an ordinary currency.
>

If there is something to what you are saying, you should be able to get
others to agree, and build an expert consensus camp around it.  I predict
you will not be able to do this, or keep up with the "Accelerating Law of
Returns consensus.


>
> You mentioned in one of your messages that you believe there is also a
> Moore's Law for gold. If that is the case then how do you explain that the
> price of gold languished for something like 20 years commencing in about
> 1980? Where was the Moore's Law for gold during all those years?
>

You completely missed what I was trying to say.  There are are two
accelerating law of returns effecting the valuation of Gold.  Like
Bitcoins, it is the growing economy which has the most profound effect.
But, unlike Bitcions, the supply is growing, exponentially, in an equally
profound accelerating law of returns way.  These to complex laws of
accelerating returns, basically cancel each other out in the long term.
The price fluctuations you are talking about during "All those" 20 years,
again, is just commodity noise that is insignificant compared to the long
term accelerating return effects canceling each other out.



>
> Gordon
>

Again, I ask you, what are we disagreeing about?  Or are are you just
making hurdling bleating useless noise in the system which is completely
meaningless in the long term?  When do you predict we will first see a
$1000/BTC valuation?  Are you predicting faster or slower growth than the
emerging consensus Crypto Coin law of accelerating returns camp?

http://canonizer.com/topic.asp/155

Upwards,

Brent Allsop
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From gts_2000 at yahoo.com  Mon Jul 15 21:47:07 2013
From: gts_2000 at yahoo.com (Gordon)
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2013 14:47:07 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] [mta] Re:  Bitcion Moore's Law?
In-Reply-To: <CAK7-ons7_CgqMv7YcGv8nwzdAmLcoFXYhC-+kJQUNtiwyKj=4Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <51C7CDC8.7060709@canonizer.com>
 <1372050277.1634.YahooMailNeo@web121204.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <51D4E0D7.5080501@canonizer.com>
 <CAB2H9XK6bg-8_K75YiwSc_pX+bd1nZtxPJNCrVr9XteEmQNccg@mail.gmail.com>
 <51D59C6C.6000105@canonizer.com>
 <1373588887.76213.YahooMailNeo@web121204.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAK7-ons7_CgqMv7YcGv8nwzdAmLcoFXYhC-+kJQUNtiwyKj=4Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1373924827.98587.YahooMailNeo@web121202.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

Brent Allsop <brent.allsop at canonizer.com> wrote:


>>But, unlike Bitcions, the supply [of gold] is growing, exponentially, in an equally profound accelerating law of returns way.<<

No, it is not. Gold mining companies to continue to mine, but the supply is not growing "exponentially in an equally profound accelerating law of of returns way".

The miserable performance of gold from about 1980 to about 2000 was due to other factors, namely disinflation. In the early 80s, Fed Chairman Paul Volcker broke the back of inflation and the US led the world into a long period declining interest rates and disinflation. Investors started selling precious metals to buy stocks, bonds and other instruments.?

In fact, for most purposes, economists and investors consider the supply of gold to be fixed. This is one reason it has done well in recent years. As the global supply of fiat money inflates, gold becomes more valuable in terms of those fiat currencies.?There is no "Moore's Law of gold," either in the supply or in the demand.?

Gordon
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From gts_2000 at yahoo.com  Tue Jul 16 00:37:20 2013
From: gts_2000 at yahoo.com (Gordon)
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2013 17:37:20 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] [mta] Re:  Bitcion Moore's Law?
In-Reply-To: <CALbjWneDub292zuR+nN=GoG_M5WbZUb2TCQuA8jq1wtc4412=g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <51C7CDC8.7060709@canonizer.com>
 <1372050277.1634.YahooMailNeo@web121204.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <51D4E0D7.5080501@canonizer.com>
 <CAB2H9XK6bg-8_K75YiwSc_pX+bd1nZtxPJNCrVr9XteEmQNccg@mail.gmail.com>
 <51D59C6C.6000105@canonizer.com>
 <1373588887.76213.YahooMailNeo@web121204.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAK7-ons7_CgqMv7YcGv8nwzdAmLcoFXYhC-+kJQUNtiwyKj=4Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALbjWneDub292zuR+nN=GoG_M5WbZUb2TCQuA8jq1wtc4412=g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1373935040.30195.YahooMailNeo@web121206.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

James Carroll <jlcarroll at gmail.com> wrote:


>>I see no evidence that the supply of gold is growing in an exponential manner, but would happily have my mind changed if anyone has evidence for this. Does anyone have a global gold supply graph hanging around somewhere? <<

This article includes a couple of charts. Like you, I see no evidence?of exponential growth in the supply.

Is a Global Gold Supply Crunch Forming?

http://www.caseyresearch.com/articles/global-gold-supply-crunch-forming


Gordon
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From andymck35 at gmail.com  Tue Jul 16 02:43:35 2013
From: andymck35 at gmail.com (Andrew Mckee)
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2013 14:43:35 +1200
Subject: [ExI] Revealed: how Microsoft handed the NSA access to
 encrypted messages
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armhkKMe=wS4KPNZUPaC6aL4cq9MyV5SyyutznfAvSkNRqQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20130711194047.GM24217@leitl.org>
 <CADDVf2JYrRmguvUv=vqug-f8gjfh5T0bAd5r1uF37nVrMJQN5Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <op.wz5a9jia0wog37@nikita>
 <CALAdGNTBw1ja4qoj36Uo4e3XBhtw4d+9fNbCZY1869qzvFT7zw@mail.gmail.com>
 <op.wz7lawx90wog37@nikita>
 <CAL_armjSS_0_wudpN-24wyT_zFiOpjs-_N1EFd2oiK469V4XRQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <op.wz7r2kio0wog37@nikita>
 <CAL_armhkKMe=wS4KPNZUPaC6aL4cq9MyV5SyyutznfAvSkNRqQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <op.w0am6xpy0wog37@nikita>

On Mon, 15 Jul 2013 02:11:01 +1200, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:

> Well, as you know it is almost impossible to prove a negative.

Almost? I thought is was just impossible, full stop.

> Let's just say that no known, provable backdoors have been
> demonstrated. Outside of known features, like vPro.

So far.

> And there are other processors on the market besides Intel. If
> security was a USP (unique selling point) then companies would be
> shouting about it.

Shouting about what exactly?, if AMDs marketing department decided to advertise the existence of a secret backdoor snooping capability in a competitors product it had better have some damned good lawyer proof concrete evidence, or it's going to be death by courtroom drama for AMD.
Besides which, how or why would AMD know about it, its supposed to be a secret remember.

> Conspiracy theory demands that *all* processors
> would have NSA backdoors built in.

Not sure which particular conspiracy theory you are referring to which has that particular requirement.

But recall perhaps, that communication is a two way street, you only need to tap one phone to intercept the full conversation held between two people, or in this case computers.
So I'd say they only need a better than average chance to capture at least one node in the communications loop to catch onto fruitful threads of intelligence.

If the reports are correct, the NSA has a capture capability of the fiber optic backplanes of the the two biggest Telcos in the US, giving them access to 70% of all US communications, so a better than average chance of snagging the nodes the're after.

And Intel have been making and selling many many more cpus than AMD for some years now, so again a better than average chance that at least one of the two PCs they might need to access can be backdoored via an Intel chip.

> And people are using and testing these chips continuously. Surely some
> researcher, somewhere, would spot an unusual response, or strange
> network packets flowing around?

Are you familiar with the magic ethernet packet that can be used to trigger the 'wake on lan' feature most PCs have, imagine something similar on steroids.
Until the backdoor is triggered there would be absolutely nothing out of the ordinary to observe.

I'd imagine it would also be a feature of semi last resort, there are after all a ton of zero day exploits and operating system security holes they can try first  that all come with serious plausible deny-ability before they would have to resort to something like this.
And if all else fails they can of course just arrange for someone to kick a backdoor in when the target is out of town, and stage a fake burglary, then go over the stolen harddrives with a fine tooth comb at their leisure, they are spooks after all, it's what they do for a living.

> Even on your own laptop you can monitor processes and traffic to see
> what is going on.

With what exactly?, any half decent root kit or malware can hide itself from the user and operating system, top of line freshly baked malware from the NSA I'd imagine would require a very skilled blackhat to discover.

> Not just panic every time a background disk defrag
> starts up, or your antivirus software does an automatic update without
> asking permission.

I think most of us have gone a ways beyond being scared of our own shadow, it's the great dark shadow of the beast that has me worried - cyberpunk dark dystopian future here we com..., oh, looks like we've arrived already.  :-)

> I'm happy nothing funny is going on with my pc (not a vPro Intel i5 or
> i7 processor). But I'm watching!  :)

I'm almost tempted to ask what sort of hardware / software setup do you have that instills such happy confidence that you are in fact outwitting the worlds most technically capable spying agencies.

But I swear, if you tell me you such a happy camper because you just installed Norton's latest security suite I will scream, possibly over the internet, it won't be pretty, please don't make me scream! :-[


From rtomek at ceti.pl  Tue Jul 16 03:09:51 2013
From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola)
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2013 05:09:51 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] Null-A
In-Reply-To: <CA+LBAbQ=dtmsRgqz9p4oyVEOg_0yhGHLRq5_1QcboYPy4hFmmg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1373889601.23684.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <1373891262.18470.YahooMailNeo@web165002.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <CA+LBAbQ=dtmsRgqz9p4oyVEOg_0yhGHLRq5_1QcboYPy4hFmmg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1307160506520.31742@tau.ceti.pl>

On Mon, 15 Jul 2013, James Clement wrote:

> Ben Zaiboc <bbenzai at yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > Tomasz, have you read Korzybski's 'Science & Sanity'?
> >
> > I can't recommend it highly enough.
> >
> >
> > http://www.generalsemantics.org/store/all-books/56-science-and-sanity-an-introduction-to-non-aristotelian-systems-and-general-semantics.html
> >
> >
> A free PDF version, appears here: http://esgs.free.fr/uk/art/sands.htm
> 

Guys, thanks to you both. SnS is in my e-reader for about few months now, 
waiting and waiting and... until I am content enough with my life to just 
spend some time laying on something and reading... or sleeping...

Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.      **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home    **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...      **
**                                                                 **
** Tomasz Rola          mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com             **


From brent.allsop at canonizer.com  Tue Jul 16 04:15:15 2013
From: brent.allsop at canonizer.com (Brent Allsop)
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2013 22:15:15 -0600
Subject: [ExI] [mta] Re:  Bitcion Moore's Law?
In-Reply-To: <CALbjWneDub292zuR+nN=GoG_M5WbZUb2TCQuA8jq1wtc4412=g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <51C7CDC8.7060709@canonizer.com>
 <1372050277.1634.YahooMailNeo@web121204.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <51D4E0D7.5080501@canonizer.com>
 <CAB2H9XK6bg-8_K75YiwSc_pX+bd1nZtxPJNCrVr9XteEmQNccg@mail.gmail.com>
 <51D59C6C.6000105@canonizer.com>
 <1373588887.76213.YahooMailNeo@web121204.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAK7-ons7_CgqMv7YcGv8nwzdAmLcoFXYhC-+kJQUNtiwyKj=4Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALbjWneDub292zuR+nN=GoG_M5WbZUb2TCQuA8jq1wtc4412=g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <51E4C8D3.6090100@canonizer.com>


Hi James,

There's a good graph on this page that convinces me the production of 
Gold is exponential in a complex Moore's law like way:

http://www.numbersleuth.org/worlds-gold/

But this graph only goes pack to 1900, so the commodity noise some seem 
to be so focused on, is very visible in this graph, compared to the much 
longer exponential production that I think would be obvious, and make 
all this other noise irrelevant, if you pushed this back another 10,000 
years.

Perhaps someone like Gordon, who values these kinds of temporary 
commodity noise, and thinks that kind of noise is all that is relevant, 
will not be convince by just this graph?  What do you think Gordon, does 
this graph convince you that the production of gold is growing at an 
accelerating law of returns (i.e. complexly exponential, like Moore's 
law?) rate?  Is there anyone for which this graph fails to convince them 
the production of Gold follows a Moore's law like complex exponential 
growth rate?

Brent Allsop


On 7/15/2013 3:07 PM, James Carroll wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 2:14 PM, Brent Allsop 
> <brent.allsop at canonizer.com <mailto:brent.allsop at canonizer.com>> wrote:
>
>     You completely missed what I was trying to say.  There are are two
>     accelerating law of returns effecting the valuation of Gold.  Like
>     Bitcoins, it is the growing economy which has the most profound
>     effect.  But, unlike Bitcions, the supply is growing,
>     exponentially, in an equally profound accelerating law of returns
>     way.  These to complex laws of accelerating returns, basically
>     cancel each other out in the long term.
>
>
>
> I see no evidence that the supply of gold is growing in an exponential 
> manner, but would happily have my mind changed if anyone has evidence 
> for this. Does anyone have a global gold supply graph hanging around 
> somewhere?
>
> James
>
> -- 
> Web: http://james.jlcarroll.net
> -- 
> To learn more about the Mormon Transhumanist Association, visit 
> http://transfigurism.org
> ---
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 
> Groups "Mormon Transhumanist Association" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send 
> an email to transfigurism+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to transfigurism at googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/transfigurism.
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>
>

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From brent.allsop at canonizer.com  Tue Jul 16 04:41:41 2013
From: brent.allsop at canonizer.com (Brent Allsop)
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2013 22:41:41 -0600
Subject: [ExI] [mta] Re:  Bitcion Moore's Law?
In-Reply-To: <1373935040.30195.YahooMailNeo@web121206.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <51C7CDC8.7060709@canonizer.com>
 <1372050277.1634.YahooMailNeo@web121204.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <51D4E0D7.5080501@canonizer.com>
 <CAB2H9XK6bg-8_K75YiwSc_pX+bd1nZtxPJNCrVr9XteEmQNccg@mail.gmail.com>
 <51D59C6C.6000105@canonizer.com>
 <1373588887.76213.YahooMailNeo@web121204.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAK7-ons7_CgqMv7YcGv8nwzdAmLcoFXYhC-+kJQUNtiwyKj=4Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALbjWneDub292zuR+nN=GoG_M5WbZUb2TCQuA8jq1wtc4412=g@mail.gmail.com>
 <1373935040.30195.YahooMailNeo@web121206.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <51E4CF05.200@canonizer.com>


Hi Gordon,

Lots of Lauphs!  You expect to see something other than noise in 10 year 
graphs?  Did you see the graph on this page that at least covers 100 years?

http://www.numbersleuth.org/worlds-gold/

So I guess you also believe your statement that "the supply is not 
growing" despite the fact that we are about to start mining asteroids in 
a very big law of accelerating returns way, to say nothing about other 
laws of accelerating returns, like better science, better chemestry, 
deeper and more intelligent automated mining machines....?  To say 
nothing of the possibility that we could do something like really 
achieve a way to turn lead into gold, via nuclear fusion, like the sun 
does, or any of an infinite other number of possibilities....

Brent Allsop



On 7/15/2013 6:37 PM, Gordon wrote:
> James Carroll <jlcarroll at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>I see no evidence that the supply of gold is growing in an exponential manner, but would happily 
> have my mind changed if anyone has evidence for this. Does anyone have 
> a global gold supply graph hanging around somewhere? <<
>
> This article includes a couple of charts. Like you, I see no evidence 
> of exponential growth in the supply.
>
> Is a Global Gold Supply Crunch Forming?
> http://www.caseyresearch.com/articles/global-gold-supply-crunch-forming
>
> Gordon
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

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From gts_2000 at yahoo.com  Tue Jul 16 05:11:19 2013
From: gts_2000 at yahoo.com (Gordon)
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2013 22:11:19 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] [mta] Re:  Bitcion Moore's Law?
In-Reply-To: <51E4CF05.200@canonizer.com>
References: <51C7CDC8.7060709@canonizer.com>
 <1372050277.1634.YahooMailNeo@web121204.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <51D4E0D7.5080501@canonizer.com>
 <CAB2H9XK6bg-8_K75YiwSc_pX+bd1nZtxPJNCrVr9XteEmQNccg@mail.gmail.com>
 <51D59C6C.6000105@canonizer.com>
 <1373588887.76213.YahooMailNeo@web121204.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAK7-ons7_CgqMv7YcGv8nwzdAmLcoFXYhC-+kJQUNtiwyKj=4Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALbjWneDub292zuR+nN=GoG_M5WbZUb2TCQuA8jq1wtc4412=g@mail.gmail.com>
 <1373935040.30195.YahooMailNeo@web121206.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <51E4CF05.200@canonizer.com>
Message-ID: <1373951479.56756.YahooMailNeo@web121203.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

Brent Allsop <brent.allsop at canonizer.com> wrote:


>>There's a good graph on this page that convinces me the production of Gold is exponential in a complex Moore's law like way:?http://www.numbersleuth.org/worlds-gold/?<<

That is not exponential growth, Brent, and it is not evidence of any supposed "Moore's Law" for gold supply or demand.

>>Perhaps someone like Gordon, who values these kinds of temporary commodity noise, and thinks that kind of noise is all that is relevant, will not be convince by just this graph?? What do you think Gordon, does this graph convince you that the production of gold is growing at an accelerating law of returns (i.e. complexly exponential, like Moore's law?) rate?<<|

No it does not convince me.

If you want to understand the future of technology, it will help to read Kurzweil. If you want to understand the markets for precious metals and other assets, it will help to study finance and economics. You could probably benefit from a refresher course in math, too.?

>> So I guess you also believe your statement that "the supply is not growing" <<

I never said that.

I spent a significant portion of my life as an investment adviser. I know a little bit about what I'm talking about here. I'm sorry, but I don't think you do.


Gordon
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From anders at aleph.se  Tue Jul 16 08:40:58 2013
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2013 10:40:58 +0200
Subject: [ExI] [mta] Re:  Bitcion Moore's Law?
In-Reply-To: <51E4CF05.200@canonizer.com>
References: <51C7CDC8.7060709@canonizer.com>
 <1372050277.1634.YahooMailNeo@web121204.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <51D4E0D7.5080501@canonizer.com>
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 <CAK7-ons7_CgqMv7YcGv8nwzdAmLcoFXYhC-+kJQUNtiwyKj=4Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALbjWneDub292zuR+nN=GoG_M5WbZUb2TCQuA8jq1wtc4412=g@mail.gmail.com>
 <1373935040.30195.YahooMailNeo@web121206.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <51E4CF05.200@canonizer.com>
Message-ID: <51E5071A.4090407@aleph.se>

On 2013-07-16 06:41, Brent Allsop wrote:
> Lots of Lauphs!  You expect to see something other than noise in 10 year
> graphs?  Did you see the graph on this page that at least covers 100 years?
>
> http://www.numbersleuth.org/worlds-gold/

That graph shows that production has increased by a factor of ~5 over a 
century. If that is exponential, the doubling time is many decades. Gold 
price might have rushed over the past ~15 years with a doubling time of 
5 years, but the past curve is fairly bumpy and with big plateaus - 
definitely no constant doubling time.

Now, given that prices are subjective evaluations rather than objective 
value, there is no physical law that precludes eternal exponential price 
growth even of a finite supply of something. Or constant, declining or 
oscillating prices. But the industrial side of gold production seems to 
be improving very slowly: my guess is that high capital costs and the 
benefits of restricted supply are disincentives to improve it. We do not 
get much of Wrightean learning leading to a Sahal's law exponential 
improvement in productivity.

The same might be true for bitcoin: if looking for coins requires bigger 
and bigger investments the productivity per unit of effort will not 
increase (unless some mathematician comes up with something clever and 
blows up the whole market...) But then again, the mining is just a 
clever part to motivate people and maintain a fairly fixed supply 
without central coordination: the eventual viability of the currency is 
pretty independent of it.



-- 
Anders Sandberg
Future of Humanity Institute
Oxford University


From pharos at gmail.com  Tue Jul 16 10:47:32 2013
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2013 11:47:32 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Revealed: how Microsoft handed the NSA access to
	encrypted messages
In-Reply-To: <op.w0am6xpy0wog37@nikita>
References: <20130711194047.GM24217@leitl.org>
 <CADDVf2JYrRmguvUv=vqug-f8gjfh5T0bAd5r1uF37nVrMJQN5Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <op.wz5a9jia0wog37@nikita>
 <CALAdGNTBw1ja4qoj36Uo4e3XBhtw4d+9fNbCZY1869qzvFT7zw@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAL_armg_Sje4kqq3vkHO2eVRai1vsB9-p68=EB6KJ_FPjA_9tg@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 3:43 AM, Andrew Mckee  wrote:
<snip>
>
> I'm almost tempted to ask what sort of hardware / software setup do you have
> that instills such happy confidence that you are in fact outwitting the
> worlds most technically capable spying agencies.
>
>

Sorry, my lips are sealed. The NSA have asked me (in that special tone
of voice) not to reveal such information. ;)

But remember to keep your main computer disconnected from the internet
and nothing of value on the Raspberry Pi (non-Windows) that you use on
the internet.

What really worries me is my theory that when the house is asleep, all
the children's toys come out to play by themselves. How else can you
explain the mess in the morning?

And does the fridge light *really* go out when you close the door?


BillK


From spike at rainier66.com  Tue Jul 16 14:03:14 2013
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike)
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2013 07:03:14 -0700
Subject: [ExI] internet camping
Message-ID: <005701ce822d$378252b0$a686f810$@rainier66.com>

I am doing the high-luxury camping thing: the kind where you still get
internet.

 

Is this a great time to be living or what?

 

Campers sometimes comment that bringing one's electronic toys along when
roughing it defeats the spirit of camping in the wilderness.  To these I
argue to the contrary: being out in nature with our species' externalized
body of knowledge available from a cell phone hot spot linked by Bluetooth
to a computer allows a prole to learn many wonderful things about the birds,
bugs, beasts and plants that are available in realtime to be examined and
observed.  

 

Yesterday I collected two porcupine quills, intentionally and harmlessly for
both beasts (him and me.)  Needle-boy walked right up to me, apparently
unaware of my presence.  When he sensed me, he curled up, quills pointing
outward.  I carefully touched his back with my boot.  Two quills came away.
Now I know something about porcupines I didn't know before: they are nearly
blind, nearly deaf, and apparently don't have an acute sense of smell, since
their noses are tiny, and apparently are rather stupid.  The principle is
that if a beast has one really good self-defense mechanism, the other
mechanisms may evolve away without serious negative consequence.

 

I am eager to get these quills home so I can gaze at them under the
microscope.

 

Computers enhance the camping experience.

 

spike 

 

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From pharos at gmail.com  Tue Jul 16 14:27:35 2013
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2013 15:27:35 +0100
Subject: [ExI] internet camping
In-Reply-To: <005701ce822d$378252b0$a686f810$@rainier66.com>
References: <005701ce822d$378252b0$a686f810$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armg_ssRTsxGGKdC_bzR=A__N8jvC_T_SRX3cvQLL+YVFyg@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 3:03 PM, spike wrote:
> I am doing the high-luxury camping thing: the kind where you still get
> internet. Is this a great time to be living or what?
>
> Campers sometimes comment that bringing one's electronic toys along when
> roughing it defeats the spirit of camping in the wilderness.  To these I
> argue to the contrary: being out in nature with our species' externalized
> body of knowledge available from a cell phone hot spot linked by Bluetooth
> to a computer allows a prole to learn many wonderful things about the birds,
> bugs, beasts and plants that are available in realtime to be examined and
> observed.
>
>


The UK is having a two week heat wave with temps of 82F-89F every day
and no rain.

Even the pasty-white Brits are going brownish now.
Topic of conversation has shifted from the cold and rain to the heat.

BillK


From spike at rainier66.com  Tue Jul 16 15:12:59 2013
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike)
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2013 08:12:59 -0700
Subject: [ExI] bug singularity: was RE:  internet camping
Message-ID: <002001ce8236$f5ca16f0$e15e44d0$@rainier66.com>


>... On Behalf Of BillK
Subject: Re: [ExI] internet camping

On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 3:03 PM, spike wrote:
>> ... Is this a great time to be living or what?
> ... a computer allows a prole to learn many 
> wonderful things about the birds, bugs, beasts and plants that are 
> available in realtime to be examined and observed...spike


>...The UK is having a two week heat wave with temps of 82F-89F every day
and no rain...

89F, oh the humanity.  

I don't get comfortable until it gets at least mid to high 80s F.  The Brits
are likely enjoying the sight of young ladies everywhere breaking out those
fun outfits that only come out when it gets good and warm.  It's one of the
big reasons why I love California: we get a lot of days like that.

>...Even the pasty-white Brits are going brownish now...BillK
_______________________________________________

Think of it this way BillK: that pasty-white skin is what allowed Brits and
Swedes (my ancestors) to survive on so little sunlight.  The skin produces
vitamin D and perhaps other essential nutrients with just a little sunlight.
I understand the trend in research is that this complexion did not evolve
from some arbitrary mate-selection mechanism, but rather was absolutely
necessary for survival in those dark climates way up there in northern
Europe.  I don't know if it is true, but I have heard that way down in the
southern tip of Africa, lighter skinned humans were there, before the
northern Europeans up showed.

Regarding internet camping, it occurred to me that Google glass would be a
terrific camping companion.  Perhaps we could rig an app which would do some
sort of image recognition, so that a prole could gaze at a plant, bug or
beast, then have Google figure out what species it is, then come back with
interesting commentary about it.

Anyone here may have seen a previously-unidentified species but never knew
it.  New insect species are discovered regularly, but how many of us know
our bugs well enough to recognize an unidentified species even if it bit us?
I wouldn't, and I have been a bug watcher most of my life.  

Some species are just rare, even if well-known.  I have seen porcupines in
the zoo, flattened on the road, but until yesterday I had never even seen on
in the wild up close.  Apply that observation to bugs: it would require an
expert entomologist to recognize some oddball thing.  How many expert
entomologists are there?  How many of them love to hike in the wilderness?
Speculation: there are only a few hundred or perhaps a few thousand proles
on the planet capable of doing such a thing as identifying new species.
Sooo...

If we had an app which could use our externalized corporate memory, we would
have an explosion of understanding about insects.  We could have a
nano-singularity in that discipline.  What a great time to be alive!  We may
get to witness a bug singularity, ooohhhh this is sooo cool.  {8-]

spike





From andymck35 at gmail.com  Tue Jul 16 23:56:05 2013
From: andymck35 at gmail.com (Andrew Mckee)
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2013 11:56:05 +1200
Subject: [ExI] Revealed: how Microsoft handed the NSA access to
 encrypted messages
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armg_Sje4kqq3vkHO2eVRai1vsB9-p68=EB6KJ_FPjA_9tg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20130711194047.GM24217@leitl.org>
 <CADDVf2JYrRmguvUv=vqug-f8gjfh5T0bAd5r1uF37nVrMJQN5Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <op.wz5a9jia0wog37@nikita>
 <CALAdGNTBw1ja4qoj36Uo4e3XBhtw4d+9fNbCZY1869qzvFT7zw@mail.gmail.com>
 <op.wz7lawx90wog37@nikita>
 <CAL_armjSS_0_wudpN-24wyT_zFiOpjs-_N1EFd2oiK469V4XRQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <op.wz7r2kio0wog37@nikita>
 <CAL_armhkKMe=wS4KPNZUPaC6aL4cq9MyV5SyyutznfAvSkNRqQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <op.w0am6xpy0wog37@nikita>
 <CAL_armg_Sje4kqq3vkHO2eVRai1vsB9-p68=EB6KJ_FPjA_9tg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <op.w0b93rwu0wog37@nikita>

On Tue, 16 Jul 2013 22:47:32 +1200, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:

> But remember to keep your main computer disconnected from the internet
> and nothing of value on the Raspberry Pi (non-Windows) that you use on
> the internet.

Thats kinda what I do anyway, but that approach really doesn't help much if you want to play the latest internet activated game, or your job requires you to upgrade(?) to Adobe's latest creative cloud offering.

> What really worries me is my theory that when the house is asleep, all
> the children's toys come out to play by themselves. How else can you
> explain the mess in the morning?

Supertoys last all summer long, so don't worry.  :-)

> And does the fridge light *really* go out when you close the door?

Yes I'm afraid the light really does go out when you close the door, unless of course you are a paranoid schizophrenic, then I'm afraid you will never, ever, really know for sure. :-)

 


From gts_2000 at yahoo.com  Wed Jul 17 01:50:09 2013
From: gts_2000 at yahoo.com (Gordon)
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2013 18:50:09 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] [mta] Re:  Bitcion Moore's Law?
In-Reply-To: <CALbjWneAMaRnm0AKM0NDDvgVrbOqRdkLff75Ahqy4LOFNwYDFQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <51C7CDC8.7060709@canonizer.com>
 <1372050277.1634.YahooMailNeo@web121204.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <51D4E0D7.5080501@canonizer.com>
 <CAB2H9XK6bg-8_K75YiwSc_pX+bd1nZtxPJNCrVr9XteEmQNccg@mail.gmail.com>
 <51D59C6C.6000105@canonizer.com>
 <1373588887.76213.YahooMailNeo@web121204.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAK7-ons7_CgqMv7YcGv8nwzdAmLcoFXYhC-+kJQUNtiwyKj=4Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALbjWneDub292zuR+nN=GoG_M5WbZUb2TCQuA8jq1wtc4412=g@mail.gmail.com>
 <51E4C8D3.6090100@canonizer.com>
 <CAB2H9XKzF8rsqUd9OF6xYw0CGCZu1iUH7WCN0j0GBwTS440fmQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALbjWneAMaRnm0AKM0NDDvgVrbOqRdkLff75Ahqy4LOFNwYDFQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1374025809.25161.YahooMailNeo@web121204.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

Getting back to my original point, before all this mumbo jumbo about a supposed Moore's Law for gold supply or demand:

Perhaps it's only a coincidence, but since about mid-June, bitcoin has traded like a genuine gold-backed currency, which is more or less what it is designed simulate.?

All other things being equal, when the dollar declines in value, it takes more of them to buy an ounce of gold.?Bitcoin declined when the dollar rallied and rallied when the dollar declined.?

Gordon
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From eugen at leitl.org  Wed Jul 17 08:54:39 2013
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2013 10:54:39 +0200
Subject: [ExI] [mta] Re:  Bitcion Moore's Law?
In-Reply-To: <CAK7-ons7_CgqMv7YcGv8nwzdAmLcoFXYhC-+kJQUNtiwyKj=4Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <51C7CDC8.7060709@canonizer.com>
 <1372050277.1634.YahooMailNeo@web121204.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <51D4E0D7.5080501@canonizer.com>
 <CAB2H9XK6bg-8_K75YiwSc_pX+bd1nZtxPJNCrVr9XteEmQNccg@mail.gmail.com>
 <51D59C6C.6000105@canonizer.com>
 <1373588887.76213.YahooMailNeo@web121204.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAK7-ons7_CgqMv7YcGv8nwzdAmLcoFXYhC-+kJQUNtiwyKj=4Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20130717085439.GA29404@leitl.org>

On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 02:14:07PM -0600, Brent Allsop wrote:

> Moore's law is simply a small and specific example of the more general

Moore's law is over. Financial scaling ceiling is here, physical
is a couple of nodes away. 

> "Kurzweel's law of Accelerating Returns".   Simple exponential growth is

Which is not much of a law, and all stolen from Moravec.

> something like rabbits reproducing in an open system and is very
> predictable and explainable in simplistic ways.  In an open system, the
> only effect is simply the number of rabbits.  While general accelerating
> return laws also behave exponentially, it is for very different
> inexplicable reasons, and happens within extremely complex systems and
> interactions of huge numbers of otherwise unpredictable and noisy effects.
> All the cyclical noise, when examined closely, look important.  But when
> you stand back, they all become insignificant, compared to the
> exponentially accelerating growth and returns of the overall system.
> Complex things like economic growth, evolutionary growth, growth in the
> number of transistors on a chip, and so on are all examples of not just
> simple exponential growth, but accelerating return laws which can't be
> simply explained.
> 
> Since all economies grow according to the complex accelerating return laws,
> any fixed currencies being used in those accelerating growing systems, must
> corresponding grow according to the same complex laws of accelerating
> returns.  Hence why the emerging expert consensus is now predicting Bitcion
> valuations,  must also grow  exponentially, along with these accelerating
> return like laws, and that all other effects on the price will simply
> become irrelevant noise, in the long term.


From eugen at leitl.org  Wed Jul 17 09:46:52 2013
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2013 11:46:52 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Revealed: how Microsoft handed the NSA access to
 encrypted messages
In-Reply-To: <op.w0am6xpy0wog37@nikita>
References: <20130711194047.GM24217@leitl.org>
 <CADDVf2JYrRmguvUv=vqug-f8gjfh5T0bAd5r1uF37nVrMJQN5Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <op.wz5a9jia0wog37@nikita>
 <CALAdGNTBw1ja4qoj36Uo4e3XBhtw4d+9fNbCZY1869qzvFT7zw@mail.gmail.com>
 <op.wz7lawx90wog37@nikita>
 <CAL_armjSS_0_wudpN-24wyT_zFiOpjs-_N1EFd2oiK469V4XRQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <op.wz7r2kio0wog37@nikita>
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 <op.w0am6xpy0wog37@nikita>
Message-ID: <20130717094652.GM29404@leitl.org>

On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 02:43:35PM +1200, Andrew Mckee wrote:
> On Mon, 15 Jul 2013 02:11:01 +1200, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> >Well, as you know it is almost impossible to prove a negative.
> 
> Almost? I thought is was just impossible, full stop.

I don't know the context, but you can prove that you have
booted a given image. You can reduce the footprint to that
of an FPGA (though there have been at least one backdoored
FPGA detectec), and just nitric acid and EM with an old
fabrication process, a la http://www.visual6502.org/
 
> >Let's just say that no known, provable backdoors have been
> >demonstrated. Outside of known features, like vPro.
> 
> So far.

You can deploy backdoors at runtime
http://inertiawar.com/microcode/
 
> >And there are other processors on the market besides Intel. If
> >security was a USP (unique selling point) then companies would be
> >shouting about it.
> 
> Shouting about what exactly?, if AMDs marketing department decided to advertise the existence of a secret backdoor snooping capability in a competitors product it had better have some damned good lawyer proof concrete evidence, or it's going to be death by courtroom drama for AMD.
> Besides which, how or why would AMD know about it, its supposed to be a secret remember.

AMD might or might not have a better story there. There's no way to tell.
 
> >Conspiracy theory demands that *all* processors
> >would have NSA backdoors built in.
> 
> Not sure which particular conspiracy theory you are referring to which has that particular requirement.
> 
> But recall perhaps, that communication is a two way street, you only need to tap one phone to intercept the full conversation held between two people, or in this case computers.
> So I'd say they only need a better than average chance to capture at least one node in the communications loop to catch onto fruitful threads of intelligence.
> 
> If the reports are correct, the NSA has a capture capability of the fiber optic backplanes of the the two biggest Telcos in the US, giving them access to 70% of all US communications, so a better than average chance of snagging the nodes the're after.
> 
> And Intel have been making and selling many many more cpus than AMD for some years now, so again a better than average chance that at least one of the two PCs they might need to access can be backdoored via an Intel chip.

In principle you can examine the network with a known good tap,
and just log everything (storage is effectively free these
days) running your own Total Awareness program on your
network traffic, plus ability to get back in time to
analyze it.

Few people do it, but it's not difficult in principle.
 
> >And people are using and testing these chips continuously. Surely some
> >researcher, somewhere, would spot an unusual response, or strange
> >network packets flowing around?
> 
> Are you familiar with the magic ethernet packet that can be used to trigger the 'wake on lan' feature most PCs have, imagine something similar on steroids.
> Until the backdoor is triggered there would be absolutely nothing out of the ordinary to observe.

http://theinvisiblethings.blogspot.de/2010/04/remotely-attacking-network-cards-or-why.html
 
> I'd imagine it would also be a feature of semi last resort, there are after all a ton of zero day exploits and operating system security holes they can try first  that all come with serious plausible deny-ability before they would have to resort to something like this.
> And if all else fails they can of course just arrange for someone to kick a backdoor in when the target is out of town, and stage a fake burglary, then go over the stolen harddrives with a fine tooth comb at their leisure, they are spooks after all, it's what they do for a living.
> 
> >Even on your own laptop you can monitor processes and traffic to see
> >what is going on.
> 
> With what exactly?, any half decent root kit or malware can hide itself from the user and operating system, top of line freshly baked malware from the NSA I'd imagine would require a very skilled blackhat to discover.
> 
> >Not just panic every time a background disk defrag
> >starts up, or your antivirus software does an automatic update without
> >asking permission.
> 
> I think most of us have gone a ways beyond being scared of our own shadow, it's the great dark shadow of the beast that has me worried - cyberpunk dark dystopian future here we com..., oh, looks like we've arrived already.  :-)
> 
> >I'm happy nothing funny is going on with my pc (not a vPro Intel i5 or
> >i7 processor). But I'm watching!  :)

You would have no way of knowing.
 
> I'm almost tempted to ask what sort of hardware / software setup do you have that instills such happy confidence that you are in fact outwitting the worlds most technically capable spying agencies.

Yep.
 
> But I swear, if you tell me you such a happy camper because you just installed Norton's latest security suite I will scream, possibly over the internet, it won't be pretty, please don't make me scream! :-[


From anders at aleph.se  Wed Jul 17 10:07:08 2013
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2013 12:07:08 +0200
Subject: [ExI] [mta] Re:  Bitcion Moore's Law?
In-Reply-To: <20130717085439.GA29404@leitl.org>
References: <51C7CDC8.7060709@canonizer.com>
 <1372050277.1634.YahooMailNeo@web121204.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <51D4E0D7.5080501@canonizer.com>
 <CAB2H9XK6bg-8_K75YiwSc_pX+bd1nZtxPJNCrVr9XteEmQNccg@mail.gmail.com>
 <51D59C6C.6000105@canonizer.com>
 <1373588887.76213.YahooMailNeo@web121204.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAK7-ons7_CgqMv7YcGv8nwzdAmLcoFXYhC-+kJQUNtiwyKj=4Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <20130717085439.GA29404@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <51E66CCC.1090207@aleph.se>

On 2013-07-17 10:54, Eugen Leitl wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 02:14:07PM -0600, Brent Allsop wrote:
>
>> Moore's law is simply a small and specific example of the more general
> Moore's law is over. Financial scaling ceiling is here, physical
> is a couple of nodes away.

I think you both are wrong, at least in general terms. What is driving 
the improvement of many technologies is Wrightean learning and massive 
expansion of uses as the unit price goes down:
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0052669
If there is no interest in a technology, it is not going to go 
Moore/accelerating returns (and surprisingly many techs like capability 
based security are stuck here). Physical limitations are surprisingly 
weak influences on price, since price is more about what people pay 
rather than anything objective - and often later versions of the tech 
are fundamentally something different from the earlier versions of the 
"same" tech (candles vs. gaslights vs. incandescent lightbulbs vs. LEDs 
- same goal, but very different ways of achieving it, and with very 
different ultimate physical constraints)

The scaling ceiling in economy is likely set by how well and large we 
can coordinate capital and groups of people. This is something that 
seems to improve over time, and I suspect it does in a multiplicative 
fashion.

-- 
Dr Anders Sandberg
Future of Humanity Institute
Oxford Martin School
Oxford University



From eugen at leitl.org  Wed Jul 17 11:15:22 2013
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2013 13:15:22 +0200
Subject: [ExI] [mta] Re:  Bitcion Moore's Law?
In-Reply-To: <51E66CCC.1090207@aleph.se>
References: <51C7CDC8.7060709@canonizer.com>
 <1372050277.1634.YahooMailNeo@web121204.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <51D4E0D7.5080501@canonizer.com>
 <CAB2H9XK6bg-8_K75YiwSc_pX+bd1nZtxPJNCrVr9XteEmQNccg@mail.gmail.com>
 <51D59C6C.6000105@canonizer.com>
 <1373588887.76213.YahooMailNeo@web121204.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAK7-ons7_CgqMv7YcGv8nwzdAmLcoFXYhC-+kJQUNtiwyKj=4Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <20130717085439.GA29404@leitl.org> <51E66CCC.1090207@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <20130717111522.GN29404@leitl.org>

On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 12:07:08PM +0200, Anders Sandberg wrote:
> On 2013-07-17 10:54, Eugen Leitl wrote:
> >On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 02:14:07PM -0600, Brent Allsop wrote:
> >
> >>Moore's law is simply a small and specific example of the more general
> >Moore's law is over. Financial scaling ceiling is here, physical
> >is a couple of nodes away.
> 
> I think you both are wrong, at least in general terms. What is

Moore's financial scaling limits have been reached. That's no
longer a prediction about the future, it is now a statement
about the past, just as Peak Oil is. 

> driving the improvement of many technologies is Wrightean learning
> and massive expansion of uses as the unit price goes down:

In Moore, the unit price is no longer goes down, it's now
flat. The financial incentive for low-margin products like
mobiles and exascale is now no longer there.

The physical limits are not far behind, and rediced incentive
implies the linear semilog is no longer a straight line.

> http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0052669

Yeah, I'm aware of that paper.

> If there is no interest in a technology, it is not going to go
> Moore/accelerating returns (and surprisingly many techs like

Linear semi-log plot technologies are really rare, and limited
in their temporal scope. Why some think that they're the rule,
and go on forever is probably due to a yet another failure of
exponential returns: education.

> capability based security are stuck here). Physical limitations are
> surprisingly weak influences on price, since price is more about

In low-margin markets, physical limitations have everything
do with prices. A mainframe is not a low-end mobile phone.

> what people pay rather than anything objective - and often later
> versions of the tech are fundamentally something different from the

Moore applies to a given technology. There are no alternative
technologies available to neatly take over no more than when
system clocks stopped doubling a decade ago:

http://www.extremetech.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/CPU-Scaling.jpg

The dark blue line remained flat. So will the green line.
Further progress can no longer depend on four times as
many widgets with halfed widget feature size. The doubling
times are no longer constant, they're increasing.

> earlier versions of the "same" tech (candles vs. gaslights vs.
> incandescent lightbulbs vs. LEDs - same goal, but very different
> ways of achieving it, and with very different ultimate physical
> constraints)

Moore is about semiconductors. When the curve stops being
a linear semi-log, the law is dead. That eventually some
other substrate and technology comes along that has a different
scaling is immaterial to the original issue: that Moore is dead.
 
> The scaling ceiling in economy is likely set by how well and large
> we can coordinate capital and groups of people. This is something

I have further bad news for you: not only is Moore dead, so
is the economy. GDP is largely a fabrication, but even that
fabrication follows availability of cheap energy. There was
never a decoupling. Negawatts don't really exist.

As this planet did not consider that availability of cheap
energy is a high priority in the last 40 years, the next 30-40
years will have flat to contracting growth (shrinkage).

> that seems to improve over time, and I suspect it does in a
> multiplicative fashion.

Infrastructure transitions always take 30-40 years. 
I'm going to argue that the capital for that is no longer there,
and the skilled manpower is also no longer there (at least 
in Europe and North America).


From eugen at leitl.org  Wed Jul 17 12:22:30 2013
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2013 14:22:30 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Revealed: how Microsoft handed the NSA access to
 encrypted messages
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armg_Sje4kqq3vkHO2eVRai1vsB9-p68=EB6KJ_FPjA_9tg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20130711194047.GM24217@leitl.org>
 <CADDVf2JYrRmguvUv=vqug-f8gjfh5T0bAd5r1uF37nVrMJQN5Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <op.wz5a9jia0wog37@nikita>
 <CALAdGNTBw1ja4qoj36Uo4e3XBhtw4d+9fNbCZY1869qzvFT7zw@mail.gmail.com>
 <op.wz7lawx90wog37@nikita>
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Message-ID: <20130717122230.GU29404@leitl.org>

On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 11:47:32AM +0100, BillK wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 3:43 AM, Andrew Mckee  wrote:
> <snip>
> >
> > I'm almost tempted to ask what sort of hardware / software setup do you have
> > that instills such happy confidence that you are in fact outwitting the
> > worlds most technically capable spying agencies.
> >
> >
> 
> Sorry, my lips are sealed. The NSA have asked me (in that special tone
> of voice) not to reveal such information. ;)

I'm afraid you're trying to blow off a serious issue with a joke.
I can't let you do that, Dave.
 
> But remember to keep your main computer disconnected from the internet
> and nothing of value on the Raspberry Pi (non-Windows) that you use on

I'm sorry, Raspberry Pi is not an open system. As far as I know
there is no open source hardware on the market, so you would
be limited to soft CPU DIY from http://opencores.org/projects 

Of course, you'd need the open source equivalent of seL4 and
a fully hardened, sandboxed application stack. I'm afraid you're
a bit SoL here.

We're making progress, but we're not nearly there yet.

> the internet.
> 
> What really worries me is my theory that when the house is asleep, all
> the children's toys come out to play by themselves. How else can you
> explain the mess in the morning?

I'm sure this explains exactly the bug in the Equadorean embassy.
And these keyloggers on suspects' computers? Why, they walked in
there on their tiny wire legs, and plugged in themselves, your Honor.
Yes, this is exactly how that shit went down.
 
> And does the fridge light *really* go out when you close the door?

You forgot to add the charge of wearing a tinfoil hat. 
Oh, right, it's too early for that still.

We must wait until this Assange/Manning/Snowden/perjury to 
Congress thing gets forgotten. 3... 2... 1... Oh, look!
A bright and shiny tinfoil hat! We now must post that on
Facebook, and Twitter about it.


From pharos at gmail.com  Wed Jul 17 13:02:09 2013
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2013 14:02:09 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Revealed: how Microsoft handed the NSA access to
	encrypted messages
In-Reply-To: <20130717122230.GU29404@leitl.org>
References: <20130711194047.GM24217@leitl.org>
 <CADDVf2JYrRmguvUv=vqug-f8gjfh5T0bAd5r1uF37nVrMJQN5Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <op.wz5a9jia0wog37@nikita>
 <CALAdGNTBw1ja4qoj36Uo4e3XBhtw4d+9fNbCZY1869qzvFT7zw@mail.gmail.com>
 <op.wz7lawx90wog37@nikita>
 <CAL_armjSS_0_wudpN-24wyT_zFiOpjs-_N1EFd2oiK469V4XRQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <op.wz7r2kio0wog37@nikita>
 <CAL_armhkKMe=wS4KPNZUPaC6aL4cq9MyV5SyyutznfAvSkNRqQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <op.w0am6xpy0wog37@nikita>
 <CAL_armg_Sje4kqq3vkHO2eVRai1vsB9-p68=EB6KJ_FPjA_9tg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20130717122230.GU29404@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <CAL_armggijDrCKEErPLSOmCahHfGCBZTcZD6rstCDUBWRaZ+1w@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 1:22 PM, Eugen Leitl  wrote:
> I'm sorry, Raspberry Pi is not an open system. As far as I know
> there is no open source hardware on the market, so you would
> be limited to soft CPU DIY from http://opencores.org/projects
>
> Of course, you'd need the open source equivalent of seL4 and
> a fully hardened, sandboxed application stack. I'm afraid you're
> a bit SoL here.
> We're making progress, but we're not nearly there yet.
>


I don't see any open source chip fabs appearing ever.....

I was comparing the Raspberry Pi with an Intel quad-core pc running Windows.
The Pi is far more secure.

I am well aware that if the NSA, etc. make you a target then there are
ways around every protection measure you might take. 99% of the
population don't even care. All we can do is make life a bit more
difficult for the NSA, preferably using measures that don't attract
their attention. This is even more interesting if they waste time on
your pc and you have nothing on your computer to hide anyway.

As a general point it is worth pointing out that if security is your
main concern, then you don't want to run the latest greatest CPU with
the fastest internet connection you can buy and then worry about
trying to make it secure.

For greatervsecurity on an internet connected pc you need an old
processor with the minimum of memory, on the edge of useability, with
a slow internet connection. Even just dial-up. This means that if any
strange new process runs there is an immediate noticeable performance
hit.

I have had powerful quad-core pcs brought to me with complaints about
slow running, that were infested with viruses and adware so that the
pc was almost at a standstill before the user noticed any problem
worth bothering about.

So for security I would use an old slow pc which complains when
anything new starts up. This means that any attack software has to
have a very light footprint on cpu, memory, disk and connection usage.

Of course, on its own this doesn't guarantee security, (nothing does),
but it helps.

BillK


From eugen at leitl.org  Wed Jul 17 13:18:06 2013
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2013 15:18:06 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Revealed: how Microsoft handed the NSA access to
 encrypted messages
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armggijDrCKEErPLSOmCahHfGCBZTcZD6rstCDUBWRaZ+1w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <op.wz5a9jia0wog37@nikita>
 <CALAdGNTBw1ja4qoj36Uo4e3XBhtw4d+9fNbCZY1869qzvFT7zw@mail.gmail.com>
 <op.wz7lawx90wog37@nikita>
 <CAL_armjSS_0_wudpN-24wyT_zFiOpjs-_N1EFd2oiK469V4XRQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <op.wz7r2kio0wog37@nikita>
 <CAL_armhkKMe=wS4KPNZUPaC6aL4cq9MyV5SyyutznfAvSkNRqQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <op.w0am6xpy0wog37@nikita>
 <CAL_armg_Sje4kqq3vkHO2eVRai1vsB9-p68=EB6KJ_FPjA_9tg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20130717122230.GU29404@leitl.org>
 <CAL_armggijDrCKEErPLSOmCahHfGCBZTcZD6rstCDUBWRaZ+1w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20130717131806.GY29404@leitl.org>

On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 02:02:09PM +0100, BillK wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 1:22 PM, Eugen Leitl  wrote:
> > I'm sorry, Raspberry Pi is not an open system. As far as I know
> > there is no open source hardware on the market, so you would
> > be limited to soft CPU DIY from http://opencores.org/projects
> >
> > Of course, you'd need the open source equivalent of seL4 and
> > a fully hardened, sandboxed application stack. I'm afraid you're
> > a bit SoL here.
> > We're making progress, but we're not nearly there yet.
> >
> 
> 
> I don't see any open source chip fabs appearing ever.....

You can load the soft cores into FPGA but also submit your
VHDL to a normal fab and verify it optically via representative
sampling.
 
> I was comparing the Raspberry Pi with an Intel quad-core pc running Windows.
> The Pi is far more secure.

Depends on your threat model.
 
> I am well aware that if the NSA, etc. make you a target then there are
> ways around every protection measure you might take. 99% of the
> population don't even care. All we can do is make life a bit more
> difficult for the NSA, preferably using measures that don't attract
> their attention. This is even more interesting if they waste time on
> your pc and you have nothing on your computer to hide anyway.

I agree. It's a good DoS.
 
> As a general point it is worth pointing out that if security is your
> main concern, then you don't want to run the latest greatest CPU with
> the fastest internet connection you can buy and then worry about
> trying to make it secure.

There are advantages in keeping an archive of old hardware, but
it's less capable in general, and not an option for many.
 
> For greatervsecurity on an internet connected pc you need an old
> processor with the minimum of memory, on the edge of useability, with
> a slow internet connection. Even just dial-up. This means that if any
> strange new process runs there is an immediate noticeable performance
> hit.

You don't see something which runs directly in the NIC, or your
router.
 
> I have had powerful quad-core pcs brought to me with complaints about
> slow running, that were infested with viruses and adware so that the
> pc was almost at a standstill before the user noticed any problem
> worth bothering about.

Performance degradation is not a good metric. 
 
> So for security I would use an old slow pc which complains when
> anything new starts up. This means that any attack software has to
> have a very light footprint on cpu, memory, disk and connection usage.
> 
> Of course, on its own this doesn't guarantee security, (nothing does),
> but it helps.

I agree that layered security is advantageous. 
Enough layers of paper will stop bullets.


From ALONZOTG at verizon.net  Tue Jul 16 04:53:55 2013
From: ALONZOTG at verizon.net (Alan Grimes)
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2013 00:53:55 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Genetix
Message-ID: <51E4D1E3.80707@verizon.net>

'ello, om, and all that...

Today I want to talk about what it will take to create the cyborg 
species that I spent so much time describing in the story that I 
released a few weeks ago and only a few people skimmed. Yes, I know the 
thing was flawed. I admit that. However, in order to earn the right to 
criticize it, you need to show me what YOU wrote about YOUR vision of 
transhumanism. And there can't be any hand-waving either. The reason 
that story of mine was so laborious was because I felt obliged to 
provide, at least, a fairly strong indication of how I envision the 
technologies I was describing actually working. So yeah, if you have 
some technical quarrel with me, something that I can go back and improve 
in the story, then I'm all ears. However, if you just want to make 
general criticisms about my writing style then put up or shut up!

My topic for today, however, is what it will take to accomplish the type 
of radical re-design that I sketched out. On a related note, I love the 
attitudes of the DIY-Bio people. They rock. Tragically, they simply 
don't appreciate the magnitude of what they're trying to do and, 
reportedly, are engaged in very short-sighted experiments on themselves 
with very minimal benefits, if any, and potentially terrible long-term 
side-effects that might reflect badly on transhumanism as a whole. I 
wish they would devote more of their energy towards thinking in a more 
holistic, long-term way about what they are doing.

om

The problem with how people seem to want to go about genetic engineering 
is that they seem to want to think about things like scientists, rather 
than engineers. They want to identify some specific subsystem or 
subprocess and then run off to solve it without thinking about how it 
should be integrated into the person, as a complete organism, or how it 
should be carried forward through the family line.

Part of the reason why people think about genetics in a reductionistic 
way is because holistic thinking on this subject is prohibitively 
complex for the human mentality. To do it right, you need to consider 
every possible interaction between the genes/nanomachine-code and the 
environment. You need to consider gravity, magnetic forces, chemicals, 
everything.

You can't just swap out a gene in a chromosome without considering how 
the chromosome itself will fold differently. On top of that you need to 
figure out how to implement complex anatomical and functional changes 
that might affect entire ensembles of genes, or require entirely new 
regulatory mechanisms.

The kind of flippant responses such as "nanomachines are better, do 
everything with nanomachines" don't cut it either. Are they really 
better? Can they satisfy transhumanist but not posthumanist aesthetic 
requirements? The science on that question hasn't even begun.

Even if we decided to go whole-hog into a nanotech based solution. Where 
are we going to obtain it? =P

So yeah, if you want your next body to last a few million years, you're 
not looking for a slap-dash solution.

What you need to do, obviously, is take a bigger stick to the problem. 
That is why I'm strongly focused on AGI these days. Additionally, you 
need to be able to direct the work yourself, the most effective way of 
doing that is through a BCI system. That is why I've been mouthing off 
about neural interfaces so much over the last few months. (Actually, a 
great deal longer, but hey...)

Completing this project is not optional. We will all be dead in a Very 
Short Time(tm) on the Grand Timeline if we fail to accomplish this 
project. Because of the amount of work that needs to be done, it will 
require a great deal of time for even a very high performance AI system 
to accomplish it. So it is urgent that we work with the greatest 
expedition to get this done. Even though I don't have any money right 
now, I devote (in theory at least) time each day to read up on AI 
design, work on a VR system for raising the AI, etc... If you ppl knew 
what was good for you, you'd do the same thing.

Tomorrow I'm going to get together with the other members of the DC 
transhumanists and....      Spend the afternoon watching 3-Stooges 
episodes!!!!

<screaming> AAAAAAARRRRRRRGHHH!!!!!!!!! </screaming>

=((((

-- 
NOTICE: NEW E-MAIL ADDRESS, SEE ABOVE

Powers are not rights.



From atymes at gmail.com  Wed Jul 17 16:45:45 2013
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2013 09:45:45 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Revealed: how Microsoft handed the NSA access to
	encrypted messages
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armggijDrCKEErPLSOmCahHfGCBZTcZD6rstCDUBWRaZ+1w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20130711194047.GM24217@leitl.org>
 <CADDVf2JYrRmguvUv=vqug-f8gjfh5T0bAd5r1uF37nVrMJQN5Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <op.wz5a9jia0wog37@nikita>
 <CALAdGNTBw1ja4qoj36Uo4e3XBhtw4d+9fNbCZY1869qzvFT7zw@mail.gmail.com>
 <op.wz7lawx90wog37@nikita>
 <CAL_armjSS_0_wudpN-24wyT_zFiOpjs-_N1EFd2oiK469V4XRQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <op.wz7r2kio0wog37@nikita>
 <CAL_armhkKMe=wS4KPNZUPaC6aL4cq9MyV5SyyutznfAvSkNRqQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <op.w0am6xpy0wog37@nikita>
 <CAL_armg_Sje4kqq3vkHO2eVRai1vsB9-p68=EB6KJ_FPjA_9tg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20130717122230.GU29404@leitl.org>
 <CAL_armggijDrCKEErPLSOmCahHfGCBZTcZD6rstCDUBWRaZ+1w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNTBb1eXrxm-gDOpuH3Waq5o58fPFwBA1N0Vn6-ARZiS0w@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 6:02 AM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:

> I don't see any open source chip fabs appearing ever.....
>

Google "Multi-User Mems Process".  (Caps for the typical acronym.)  They've
been around for over two decades, with increasing amounts of public access.

There are, in fact, hobbyist projects that will sell you hardware made this
way.  Of course, for the purposes of this discussion, you have to trust
that those hobbyists are not just another NSA front...
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From atymes at gmail.com  Wed Jul 17 18:14:40 2013
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2013 11:14:40 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Genetix
In-Reply-To: <51E4D1E3.80707@verizon.net>
References: <51E4D1E3.80707@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNRgygDmYMTb2-ikxx7RL=DT=J04kGbH-0ww-k-suxAe3A@mail.gmail.com>

On Jul 17, 2013 8:16 AM, "Alan Grimes" <ALONZOTG at verizon.net> wrote:
> On a related note, I love the attitudes of the DIY-Bio people. They rock.
Tragically, they simply don't appreciate the magnitude of what they're
trying to do and, reportedly, are engaged in very short-sighted experiments
on themselves with very minimal benefits, if any, and potentially terrible
long-term side-effects that might reflect badly on transhumanism as a
whole. I wish they would devote more of their energy towards thinking in a
more holistic, long-term way about what they are doing.

As you point out, the long term, holistic approach is hard.  Most of these
efforts have woefully limited time and money, and they need too produce
SOME results within that budget.

> Even if we decided to go whole-hog into a nanotech based solution. Where
are we going to obtain it? =P

First, someone needs to invent and commercialize a general purpose
nanobot.  Commercialization can be the harder of those two challenges,
especially since the invention may already have been done - in some lab
somewhere, content to merely publish a few articles about it and let
someone else (maybe us) actually change the world with it (but of course
they want the credit for our work).

I have considered writing stories about The Implementer, whose power is to
take others' inventions and realize/productize them.  Not a creative neuron
in his brainpan.  Among the narrative problems I have encountered with the
concept:

* This can seem like he's just some rich person with a slightly fantastic
design and manufacturing team on call.  Not that interesting to most people
who could use his message (see below).

* He inherently changes the status quo of society.  That's what he does.
This can present problems for readers who pick up after the first book, if
this eventually spans multiple books.  It also slowly makes his world one
that many readers can less identify with.

* He does all that and he's not creative enough to do the original
invention too?  Seems a stretch...but the point is that he's finding and
using all these inventions others have made, something he is intended to
inspire people to do IRL.  Maybe it would work better in a postapoctalyptic
setting, but that would nerf the implication that this is something that
people can do today, in our world.

...and then there's getting this published and marketed well enough that it
has a chance to actually inspire people, but that's a separate challenge,
and an easier one once the narrative issues are addressed.

> Tomorrow I'm going to get together with the other members of the DC
transhumanists and....      Spend the afternoon watching 3-Stooges
episodes!!!!
>
> <screaming> AAAAAAARRRRRRRGHHH!!!!!!!!! </screaming>
>
> =((((

Maybe broach the topics you would like to discuss before/between/after the
episodes?
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From spike at rainier66.com  Wed Jul 17 22:02:07 2013
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike)
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2013 15:02:07 -0700
Subject: [ExI] woman wants to be paraplegic
Message-ID: <000901ce8339$486ab3d0$d9401b70$@rainier66.com>

OK cool, so now all we need to do is find a person who wants to be
quadriplegic, then we are ready to do a head transplant.

 

http://www.foxnews.com/health/2013/07/17/able-bodied-woman-wants-surgery-to-
make-her-paraplegic/?test=latestnews

 

This must be some kind of rare cyborg wish. 

 

If we can regenerate nerve cells, the head which receives her able body has
the theoretical possibility of regaining some degree of control.  The body
which receives her head could then have ALS or something, and that head
wouldn't mind, since it wanted to be quadriplegic to start with. 

 

spike

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From natasha at natasha.cc  Wed Jul 17 22:24:28 2013
From: natasha at natasha.cc (natasha at natasha.cc)
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2013 17:24:28 -0500
Subject: [ExI] woman wants to be paraplegic
In-Reply-To: <000901ce8339$486ab3d0$d9401b70$@rainier66.com>
References: <000901ce8339$486ab3d0$d9401b70$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <20130717172428.ivfot4zb4wock8go@webmail.natasha.cc>



   Quoting spike <spike at rainier66.com>:

> OK cool, so now all we need to do is find a person who wants to be
> quadriplegic, then we are ready to do a head transplant.

> http://www.foxnews.com/health/2013/07/17/able-bodied-woman-wants-surgery-to-
> make-her-paraplegic/?test=latestnews

> This must be some kind of rare cyborg wish.
> If we can regenerate nerve cells, the head which receives her able body has
> the theoretical possibility of regaining some degree of control.? The body
> which receives her head could then have ALS or something, and that head
> wouldn't mind, since it wanted to be quadriplegic to start with.

   This must be an awful mental disease to endure.? An extreme form of  
cutting?? Anyway, the smile on her face makes it even more alarming.?  
Out of the ballpark if you ask me.



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From spike at rainier66.com  Wed Jul 17 23:33:33 2013
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike)
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2013 16:33:33 -0700
Subject: [ExI] woman wants to be paraplegic
In-Reply-To: <20130717172428.ivfot4zb4wock8go@webmail.natasha.cc>
References: <000901ce8339$486ab3d0$d9401b70$@rainier66.com>
 <20130717172428.ivfot4zb4wock8go@webmail.natasha.cc>
Message-ID: <005201ce8346$0e0ac7e0$2a2057a0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

Behalf Of natasha at natasha.cc
Subject: Re: [ExI] woman wants to be paraplegic

 

Quoting spike <spike at rainier66.com>:

>>. OK cool, so now all we need to do is find a person who wants to be
> quadriplegic, then we are ready to do a head transplant.

>
http://www.foxnews.com/health/2013/07/17/able-bodied-woman-wants-surgery-to-
> make-her-paraplegic/?test=latestnews

> >.  The body
> which receives her head could then have ALS or something, and that head
> wouldn't mind, since it wanted to be quadriplegic to start with.

>.This must be an awful mental disease to endure.  An extreme form of
cutting?  Anyway, the smile on her face makes it even more alarming.  Out of
the ballpark if you ask me.

Natasha I would damn well hope this young lady is unable to find a team of
surgeons so unethical they would even consider doing such a thing as this.  

 

There are psychological mechanisms in humans that somehow get gratification
from being dependent on others.  That might be it: a craving for the
closeness one feels for caregivers.  Perhaps it is a craving for the kind of
admiration we feel for someone with a disability working with it and making
do the best they can with the technology available.  I cheer for those with
muscle wasting conditions when I see them rally every ounce of strength and
struggle mightily to overcome.  Of course if I knew the person gave
themselves the disability intentionally, well that would more than cancel
any admiration.

 

spike

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From brent.allsop at canonizer.com  Thu Jul 18 02:52:22 2013
From: brent.allsop at canonizer.com (Brent Allsop)
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2013 20:52:22 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: Re: [mta] Re:  Bitcion Moore's Law?
In-Reply-To: <51E75805.6000008@canonizer.com>
References: <51E75805.6000008@canonizer.com>
Message-ID: <51E75866.2050207@canonizer.com>




-------- Original Message --------
Subject: 	Re: [mta] Re: [ExI] Bitcion Moore's Law?
Date: 	Wed, 17 Jul 2013 20:50:45 -0600
From: 	Brent Allsop <brent.allsop at canonizer.com>
Reply-To: 	brent.allsop at canonizer.com
Organization: 	Canonizer LLC
To: 	transfigurism at googlegroups.com




Hi Folks,

OK, It looks like there is a clear expert consensus that I trust here.  
I guess I was making too much of an assumption about how fast the 
production of Gold was.  I need to rethink my thinking thanks to all 
your help.

I do have another question.  Would all you guys consider .00001% / year 
growth, exponential growth?  It seems like most of our disagreement is 
just about how much exponential growth there is.  And even the graph 
from 1900, would look very linear (as you seem to think it is) with 
.00001% growth, right?

So, the real question for you all still is, do you think the Value of 
Bitcoin, will grow in a way at least as "Moore's Law" like as the growth 
of integrated circuits have been, since Moore's prediction, as is being 
predicted by the emerging expert consensus here?:

http://canonizer.com/topic.asp/154/2

And if not, do you think it will be less growth, more growth, or just 
not as (moore's law like) linear (on a logarithmic graph) as it has in 
the past?  And if so, why?

Brent Allsop




On 7/16/2013 9:20 AM, James Carroll wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 1:45 AM, Carl Youngblood <carl at youngbloods.org 
> <mailto:carl at youngbloods.org>> wrote:
>
>     Brent, those charts of gold mining look much more linear than
>     exponential. Notice that the Y-axis is climbing linearly. It would
>     need to be on a logarithmic scale if gold mining growth were
>     exponential.
>
>
>
>
> I agree with Carl Brent. While Gordon's graph doesn't go back far 
> enough to mean much, your graph very clearly indicates linear growth 
> over the last 100 years, with a potential slowdown at the end (it's 
> too hard to tell if that is noise, or real data there at the end).
>
> If there really is exponential growth in supply going on here, I don't 
> see it from these graphs at all. It may show up as you claim, if you 
> go further back in time. But it might not too, without the data, that 
> is simply wild speculation. For now, the only data I have seen 
> indicates linear growth.
>
> Furthermore, the potential slowdown indicated by your graph happened 
> right when wild panic over hypterinflation created a gold price 
> bubble, that is destined to pop (it is in the process of popping now 
> actually). If staggeringly and artificially high gold prices couldn't 
> even keep linear gold production growth going, I seriously doubt that 
> there really is an exponential trend buried underneath this.
>
> James
>
> -- 
> Web: http://james.jlcarroll.net
> -- 
> To learn more about the Mormon Transhumanist Association, visit 
> http://transfigurism.org
> ---
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 
> Groups "Mormon Transhumanist Association" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send 
> an email to transfigurism+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to transfigurism at googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/transfigurism.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
>
>



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From gts_2000 at yahoo.com  Thu Jul 18 07:04:18 2013
From: gts_2000 at yahoo.com (Gordon)
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2013 00:04:18 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: Re: [mta] Re:  Bitcion Moore's Law?
In-Reply-To: <51E75866.2050207@canonizer.com>
References: <51E75805.6000008@canonizer.com> <51E75866.2050207@canonizer.com>
Message-ID: <1374131058.19511.YahooMailNeo@web121206.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

Brent Allsop <brent.allsop at canonizer.com> wrote:


>>So, the real question for you all still is, do you think the Value of Bitcoin, will grow in a way at least as "Moore's Law" like as the growth of integrated circuits have been<<|

No.?

Rid yourself of this silly idea that the market for bitcoin is supposed to operate according to something like Moore's Law, which is basically a law of technical progress. The markets for commodities including currencies do not work that way. Bitcoin can and I hope will succeed, but it won't be because of some imaginary Moore's Law of Bitcoin.

You need to study Econ, Brent, imo.


Gordon?
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From eugen at leitl.org  Thu Jul 18 08:13:34 2013
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2013 10:13:34 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Revealed: how Microsoft handed the NSA access to
 encrypted messages
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNTBb1eXrxm-gDOpuH3Waq5o58fPFwBA1N0Vn6-ARZiS0w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALAdGNTBw1ja4qoj36Uo4e3XBhtw4d+9fNbCZY1869qzvFT7zw@mail.gmail.com>
 <op.wz7lawx90wog37@nikita>
 <CAL_armjSS_0_wudpN-24wyT_zFiOpjs-_N1EFd2oiK469V4XRQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <op.wz7r2kio0wog37@nikita>
 <CAL_armhkKMe=wS4KPNZUPaC6aL4cq9MyV5SyyutznfAvSkNRqQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <op.w0am6xpy0wog37@nikita>
 <CAL_armg_Sje4kqq3vkHO2eVRai1vsB9-p68=EB6KJ_FPjA_9tg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20130717122230.GU29404@leitl.org>
 <CAL_armggijDrCKEErPLSOmCahHfGCBZTcZD6rstCDUBWRaZ+1w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNTBb1eXrxm-gDOpuH3Waq5o58fPFwBA1N0Vn6-ARZiS0w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20130718081334.GX29404@leitl.org>

On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 09:45:45AM -0700, Adrian Tymes wrote:

> There are, in fact, hobbyist projects that will sell you hardware made this
> way.  Of course, for the purposes of this discussion, you have to trust
> that those hobbyists are not just another NSA front...

"Trust, but verify" -- Lenin.


From anders at aleph.se  Thu Jul 18 09:55:32 2013
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2013 11:55:32 +0200
Subject: [ExI] woman wants to be paraplegic
In-Reply-To: <000901ce8339$486ab3d0$d9401b70$@rainier66.com>
References: <000901ce8339$486ab3d0$d9401b70$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <51E7BB94.20100@aleph.se>

On 2013-07-18 00:02, spike wrote:
> This must be some kind of rare cyborg wish.

The body dysmorphic disorders are odd. They actually do seem to involve 
that the brain representation doesn't quite fit the body. Ramachandran 
et al. has a paper where they show there are some neurological 
correlates, http://cbc.ucsd.edu/pdf/apotem.pdf and suggest it has to do 
with some parietal-insular system. This would fit with other parietal 
body dysmorphias, such as hemispatial neglect making people deny 
ownership of parts of their bodies on the "wrong" side. I think there 
was even a paper looking at transsexuals, finding body schemas that did 
not fit their bodies. So maybe these people are simply amputees stuck 
inside a complete body.

(Then there are the acrotomophilia, people who desire amputees without 
wanting to be one themselves. I never understood that until I saw the 
pictures of Alex Minsky... but then again, I am probably more of a 
cyborgophile.)



-- 
Anders Sandberg
Future of Humanity Institute
Oxford University


From eugen at leitl.org  Thu Jul 18 12:24:08 2013
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2013 14:24:08 +0200
Subject: [ExI] [Server-sky] SSPS, Hydro, and other distractions
Message-ID: <20130718122408.GE29404@leitl.org>

----- Forwarded message from Keith Lofstrom <keithl at kl-ic.com> -----

Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2013 22:29:49 -0700
From: Keith Lofstrom <keithl at kl-ic.com>
To: Server Sky - Internet and Computing in Orbit <server-sky at server-sky.com>
Subject: [Server-sky] SSPS, Hydro, and other distractions
User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.2i
Reply-To: keithl at keithl.com

On Thu, Jul 18, 2013 at 08:14:36AM +0900, Michael Turner wrote:
> First, something that keeps getting lost in this discussion is that I
> propose beaming power up from Earth through a microwave relay back
> down to Earth. 

I wrote three different replies to this, and they kept coming out
cranky, and I don't want to be cranky with my friends.

There are advocates and skeptics for many ideas, and the reason
they disagree is that both sides haven't dived down into the deep
research and analysis that usually leads to a third path,  avoiding
the pitfalls obvious to the skeptics, while reaching goals both
sooner and more profitably than the grand designs of the advocates.

SSPS?  Small hydro?  Do the research and calculations yourself, with
a skeptical bent, not to kill the ideas but to find the real flaws
to bypass and the excellent opportunities on the bypass routes.  I
could do it for you, and did so in my cranky responses, but where's
the fun in that?

Linus Pauling taught that the way to have good ideas is to have
LOTs of ideas, and get rid of the bad and mediocre ideas as quickly
as possible.  If you need me to find the flaws in the ideas you
cling to, you will never be a Linus Pauling (or Torvalds).

If the advocates haven't made real progress in decades, it isn't
repression by the wicked, it is their own dogmatic commitment to
flawed approaches.  That's the way most people are.  That is why
there are great opportunities to remix and succeed while the timid
beat their heads against the same old walls and their weapons
against the same old enemies.  It takes real courage to listen
to the people who disagree with you, and even more to abandon
certainty for the power of extended collaboration.

Ask yourself what can be done with water on top of a hill, perhaps
at the top of the troposphere.  Ask yourself what can be done with
vacuum and microgravity drenched in 1360 W/m? sunlight.  Making
those superb resources into bulk, low value electric power, and
digging up the planet for copper and aluminum so we can blacken
the blue sky with more wires, seems like a 19th century regression
from 21st century opportunities.

380 trillion terawatts is VERY attractive.  Using 1960s ideas to
prop up a rickety 1930s electrical grid is not.  Computation and
cleverness can replace resource consumption with /enhancement/,
putting stuff back better than we found it, sharing abundance with
all life on earth so it has even more bounty to share with us.

We need computational results from space, not the heat wasted to
produce them.  With a 5777K solar source and a 2.7K black body
heat sink, we can do a LOT of computation out there, and make
clever and useful optimizations down here on the mudball
without cooking it into pottery.

Humans will inhabit space soon, if we establish rapidly growing
ecologies of biology and computation for life to inhabit.  Tiny
metal prisons in orbit makes little sense.  Branches of enhanced
humanity will live in the raw energy and vacuum of space, not
space suits, adapting as our distant ancestors adapted to land
from water.  We will do this with computation and biological
modification rather than glacially slow Darwinian evolution, not
because we are smarter than nature, but because we are impatient.

The Earth can return to its best role as the slow but extremely
powerful computation engine of natural selection, protected from
the occasional asteroid impactor or nearby supernova, shielded 
from a relentlessly hotter sun.  Wipe your feet at the door and
don't track gene-mods into the house.

Those are distant dreams, of course, far beyond server sky, which
itself is many steps beyond the first profits and successes we
will find on our lifelong journey.  Stepping backwards into the
nostalgia of Apollo or Counterculture America, dreaming of what
might have been, will only take us away from where we must go.

Think galacticly, act microscopicly.

Keith

-- 
Keith Lofstrom          keithl at keithl.com         Voice (503)-520-1993
_______________________________________________
Server-sky mailing list
Server-sky at lists.server-sky.com
http://lists.server-sky.com/mailman/listinfo/server-sky

----- End forwarded message -----
-- 
Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://ativel.com http://postbiota.org
AC894EC5: 38A5 5F46 A4FF 59B8 336B  47EE F46E 3489 AC89 4EC5


From kellycoinguy at gmail.com  Thu Jul 18 15:11:00 2013
From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kellycoinguy)
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2013 09:11:00 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Heresy on Campus
Message-ID: <j49915l0j9cbbd8ytvba9jri.1374160148137@email.android.com>


I attach for comment a picture of the great one, Albert Einstein with the unbelievable caption, "Great Minds Think Alike"... Shocking, don't you think for a college campus... The University of Utah, for the record.

-Kelly



Sent from my Samsung Epic? 4G Touch
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From atymes at gmail.com  Thu Jul 18 16:01:23 2013
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2013 09:01:23 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Heresy on Campus
In-Reply-To: <j49915l0j9cbbd8ytvba9jri.1374160148137@email.android.com>
References: <j49915l0j9cbbd8ytvba9jri.1374160148137@email.android.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNSXBzQhmNw+fo+DhbvfGukM8T5Koe0S6tZeTYvs2pE+=Q@mail.gmail.com>

The picture did not come through.


On Thu, Jul 18, 2013 at 8:11 AM, Kellycoinguy <kellycoinguy at gmail.com>wrote:

>
> I attach for comment a picture of the great one, Albert Einstein with the
> unbelievable caption, "Great Minds Think Alike"... Shocking, don't you
> think for a college campus... The University of Utah, for the record.
>
> -Kelly
>
>
>
> Sent from my Samsung Epic? 4G Touch
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From mrjones2020 at gmail.com  Fri Jul 19 01:31:59 2013
From: mrjones2020 at gmail.com (J.R. Jones)
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2013 21:31:59 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Solar-Powered Water Heater made of beer bottles
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1307131810040.8324@tau.ceti.pl>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1307131810040.8324@tau.ceti.pl>
Message-ID: <CADDVf2LMwaW2U3hf9w+_PPYo=xEh3sPsf6TuBoKepVJti=7EPA@mail.gmail.com>

"The water flows through the bottles slowly and is heated by the son."
All because he put them up there huh?  He gets ALL the credit?
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From msd001 at gmail.com  Fri Jul 19 01:42:59 2013
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2013 21:42:59 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Solar-Powered Water Heater made of beer bottles
In-Reply-To: <CADDVf2LMwaW2U3hf9w+_PPYo=xEh3sPsf6TuBoKepVJti=7EPA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1307131810040.8324@tau.ceti.pl>
 <CADDVf2LMwaW2U3hf9w+_PPYo=xEh3sPsf6TuBoKepVJti=7EPA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOJFdbJ8+7rW8faNRdzh+f-BF3ASLzDCzaGE9LST0as=WfgTEg@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jul 18, 2013 at 9:31 PM, J.R. Jones <mrjones2020 at gmail.com> wrote:
> "The water flows through the bottles slowly and is heated by the son."   All
> because he put them up there huh?  He gets ALL the credit?

Yeah, I noticed that but didn't immediately think of a funny way to
comment on it.  Thanks.


From gts_2000 at yahoo.com  Fri Jul 19 11:56:42 2013
From: gts_2000 at yahoo.com (Gordon)
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2013 04:56:42 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] heh :)
Message-ID: <1374235002.51244.YahooMailNeo@web121203.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/correlation.png
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From eugen at leitl.org  Fri Jul 19 13:35:24 2013
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2013 15:35:24 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Revealed: how Microsoft handed the NSA access to
 encrypted messages
In-Reply-To: <op.w0b93rwu0wog37@nikita>
References: <CADDVf2JYrRmguvUv=vqug-f8gjfh5T0bAd5r1uF37nVrMJQN5Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <op.wz5a9jia0wog37@nikita>
 <CALAdGNTBw1ja4qoj36Uo4e3XBhtw4d+9fNbCZY1869qzvFT7zw@mail.gmail.com>
 <op.wz7lawx90wog37@nikita>
 <CAL_armjSS_0_wudpN-24wyT_zFiOpjs-_N1EFd2oiK469V4XRQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <op.wz7r2kio0wog37@nikita>
 <CAL_armhkKMe=wS4KPNZUPaC6aL4cq9MyV5SyyutznfAvSkNRqQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <op.w0am6xpy0wog37@nikita>
 <CAL_armg_Sje4kqq3vkHO2eVRai1vsB9-p68=EB6KJ_FPjA_9tg@mail.gmail.com>
 <op.w0b93rwu0wog37@nikita>
Message-ID: <20130719133524.GU29404@leitl.org>

On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 11:56:05AM +1200, Andrew Mckee wrote:

> >But remember to keep your main computer disconnected from the internet
> >and nothing of value on the Raspberry Pi (non-Windows) that you use on
> >the internet.

You could use an amnesiac distro like Tails. Or virtualize your system,
if it supports VT-d/IOMMU, so that you can compartmentalize your
secrets without hardware redundancy (but hardware redundancy is
always a good idea, anyway).
 
> Thats kinda what I do anyway, but that approach really doesn't help much 
> if you want to play the latest internet activated game, or your job requires 
> you to upgrade(?) to Adobe's latest creative cloud offering.

Always mount a scratch monkey.


From rtomek at ceti.pl  Fri Jul 19 21:48:19 2013
From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola)
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2013 23:48:19 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: Re: [mta] Re:  Bitcion Moore's Law?
In-Reply-To: <51E75866.2050207@canonizer.com>
References: <51E75805.6000008@canonizer.com> <51E75866.2050207@canonizer.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1307192234050.19035@tau.ceti.pl>

On Wed, 17 Jul 2013, Brent Allsop wrote:
> 
> Hi Folks,
> 
> OK, It looks like there is a clear expert consensus that I trust here.  I
> guess I was making too much of an assumption about how fast the production of
> Gold was.  I need to rethink my thinking thanks to all your help.
> 
> I do have another question.  Would all you guys consider .00001% / year
> growth, exponential growth?  It seems like most of our disagreement is just
> about how much exponential growth there is.  And even the graph from 1900,
> would look very linear (as you seem to think it is) with .00001% growth,
> right?

Yeah, if we take it from definition, i.e. x(n) = x(0)*(1+r)^n , so we 
assume r=0.00001 and we are ok.

But I don't think this r or any other r has got much to do with future 
gold production or any other process undergoing on this planet, or this 
solar system or any closed space analysed without connection to 
surrounding Universe. One could as well claim that human population grew 
exponentially so far and from this infer it will be so in a future, too. 
Well, don't hold your breath. This has got to stop, one way or another. In 
other words, there might be exponential growth in some limited time 
period. Predicting what happens next based on one factor (when the process 
really depends on many factors) looks like pure numerology to me. It looks 
even worse when one predicts future value based on current and previous 
values - like, since January upto today, number of sunny days per month 
grew linearly (well, ok, I am making this up but I'm sure the number 
grew), thus I predict it will grow twice as much until December, and next 
July it will be even bigger, perhaps as big as forty sunny days per 
month, maybe fifty. So if you are in travel business, adjust your 
investments accordingly, blah blah blah. This kind of prediction fails to 
see whole planet and I'd say the global number of sunny days per month 
stays constant (with some fluctuations). It also fails to realize where 
those sunny days' growth came from (during first half of the year on 
northern hemisphere). And so on. So if one does not analyse the whole 
problem, one can easily end up with linear growth to 50 sunny days in 
31-day month. Smells a bit fishy, doesn't it?

> And if not, do you think it will be less growth, more growth, or just 
> not as (moore's law like) linear (on a logarithmic graph) as it has in 
> the past?  And if so, why?

Myself, I view bitcion price as very much "made up" value. How it is going 
to change? You can as well ask me how big will be the cost of those things 
made by... Dolce and Versace? I really don't know what they sell 
(something "fushionable", this much is what I need to know) but even if I 
knew I still wouldn't know what price people would pay for those ten years 
from now. Perhaps nothing, because fushionable things defushion themselves 
so quickly.

Of course, since I have a computer and maybe will invest in additional 
hardware, I may join the play. Or maybe I will find a better way to invest 
my pennies. Like, knowledge is priceless, eh?

Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.      **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home    **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...      **
**                                                                 **
** Tomasz Rola          mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com             **


From gts_2000 at yahoo.com  Sat Jul 20 07:44:15 2013
From: gts_2000 at yahoo.com (Gordon)
Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2013 00:44:15 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: Re: [mta] Re:  Bitcion Moore's Law?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1307192234050.19035@tau.ceti.pl>
References: <51E75805.6000008@canonizer.com> <51E75866.2050207@canonizer.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1307192234050.19035@tau.ceti.pl>
Message-ID: <1374306255.88054.YahooMailNeo@web121206.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

Tomasz Rola <rtomek at ceti.pl> wrote:


>>Myself, I view bitcion price as very much "made up" value. How it is going?

to change?<<


The price of gold is also, one might say, a "made up" value, and?I find it most useful to think of bitcoin as a simulated gold-backed currency. Gold has only limited utility in industry and jewelry. We value gold mostly because its history and tradition as currency, but it is no longer very useful as a currency.?
Bitcoin is actually a threat to gold, and could in theory make gold worth nothing more than its true utility value. ?I'm only guessing here, but the true utility value of ?gold is probably something like 100-200 USD per ounce, if that. Copper currently trades around $3 per *pound*. Aside from the ornamental value of gold, it probably has less utility than copper.

Gordon
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From eugen at leitl.org  Sat Jul 20 14:16:38 2013
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2013 16:16:38 +0200
Subject: [ExI] [Server-sky] Demandite - machines versus biology
Message-ID: <20130720141638.GV29404@leitl.org>

----- Forwarded message from Keith Lofstrom <keithl at kl-ic.com> -----

Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2013 13:15:37 -0700
From: Keith Lofstrom <keithl at kl-ic.com>
To: Server Sky - Internet and Computing in Orbit <server-sky at server-sky.com>
Subject: [Server-sky] Demandite - machines versus biology
User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.2i
Reply-To: keithl at keithl.com

A response to a friend's email, perhaps worth sharing with the list:

> ...
> Recalling D.R. Criswell, and his 'demandite' papers from the 1970s;
> ... [more about the mass spectrometer mining of arbitrary rock]

The only thing that really costs money is human attention. 

Nature is not uniform;  ore bodies occur by beneficiation, which is
driven by heat, gravity, oxygen and water chemistry on a planet with
plate tectonics operating over deep time.  Earth has perhaps 20 times
(WAG) as many mineral types as Mars and 100 times as many as the moon.

The machines we build are also subject to all those effects and require
continuous attention;  maintenance and optimum operation in a varying
environment are two attention sinks that limit the size our machine
collection can grow to.

Software can multiply productive human attention.  Some software
(like facebook and twitter) multiply attention by a factor much 
smaller than one.  Television, very close to zero.  Other software,
like adaptive machine control driven by CAD, multiplies attention
by two to ten, computable from the dollar income of those buying
the tools and the people they hire to operate them.  Data mining
operations at Google are probably the most productive multiplier
in the world, but Google restricts access to the data needed to
estimate their multiplier. 

I don't think we will get to the attention multiplier factors needed
for macromechanical demandite processing without better software,
and organizations and hardware platforms optimized for using it. 
That might come with time, but there are shortcuts we will use first.

I was thinking about balloon hydrogen generators, information, biology,
and working with nature, and came up with this:

http://server-sky.com/RWS-Microballoon

Still tweaking on it, getting feedback. 

We are passing from the machine age and entering the information and
biology age - there will still be lots of machines around (there
are still people hunting with pointy sticks), but information-guided
self-replication is the future.  When we need a chemical element, we
will not dig for it, we will send bacteria and ants after it,
incentivized by the chemical rewards and cues they evolved to pursue. 
We are already using water mining to extract most of our uranium and
methane.  Some friends are studying artificial xeolite molecules for
element extraction in toxic waste ponds.  Paying attention to nature,
instead of fighting her, can be very rewarding.

Think galacticly, act microscopicly.

Keith

-- 
Keith Lofstrom          keithl at keithl.com         Voice (503)-520-1993


----- End forwarded message -----

-- 
Keith Lofstrom          keithl at keithl.com         Voice (503)-520-1993
_______________________________________________
Server-sky mailing list
Server-sky at lists.server-sky.com
http://lists.server-sky.com/mailman/listinfo/server-sky

----- End forwarded message -----
-- 
Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://ativel.com http://postbiota.org
AC894EC5: 38A5 5F46 A4FF 59B8 336B  47EE F46E 3489 AC89 4EC5


From lubkin at unreasonable.com  Sat Jul 20 21:52:22 2013
From: lubkin at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin)
Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2013 17:52:22 -0400
Subject: [ExI] turing again
In-Reply-To: <008d01cd5227$3a4c3f10$aee4bd30$@att.net>
References: <008d01cd5227$3a4c3f10$aee4bd30$@att.net>
Message-ID: <201307202235.r6KMZCTA014920@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

<http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk-news/2013/jul/19/enigma-codebreaker-alan-turing-posthumous-pardon?INTCMP=SRCH>
Enigma codebreaker Alan Turing to be given posthumous pardon


Although I have no particular objection, I'm not big on posthumous pardons.

I'd rather Turing be given an extraordinary honor, e.g., a posthumous 
award of a hereditary peerage, making him superior to his brother 
(Sir John Leslie Turing, 11th Baronet of Forevan). Or the Order of 
the Garter, the highest order of chivalry, previously bestowed on 
Churchill and Thatcher.

I have no clue about what's possible and what's involved. But I'm 
looking for a grand, unmistakable gesture.


-- David.



From andymck35 at gmail.com  Sun Jul 21 07:58:59 2013
From: andymck35 at gmail.com (Andrew Mckee)
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2013 19:58:59 +1200
Subject: [ExI] Revealed: how Microsoft handed the NSA access to
 encrypted messages
In-Reply-To: <20130719133524.GU29404@leitl.org>
References: <CADDVf2JYrRmguvUv=vqug-f8gjfh5T0bAd5r1uF37nVrMJQN5Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <op.wz5a9jia0wog37@nikita>
 <CALAdGNTBw1ja4qoj36Uo4e3XBhtw4d+9fNbCZY1869qzvFT7zw@mail.gmail.com>
 <op.wz7lawx90wog37@nikita>
 <CAL_armjSS_0_wudpN-24wyT_zFiOpjs-_N1EFd2oiK469V4XRQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <op.wz7r2kio0wog37@nikita>
 <CAL_armhkKMe=wS4KPNZUPaC6aL4cq9MyV5SyyutznfAvSkNRqQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <op.w0am6xpy0wog37@nikita>
 <CAL_armg_Sje4kqq3vkHO2eVRai1vsB9-p68=EB6KJ_FPjA_9tg@mail.gmail.com>
 <op.w0b93rwu0wog37@nikita> <20130719133524.GU29404@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <op.w0ka4ldv0wog37@nikita>

On Sat, 20 Jul 2013 01:35:24 +1200, Eugen Leitl <eugen at leitl.org> wrote:


>> Thats kinda what I do anyway, but that approach really doesn't help much
>> if you want to play the latest internet activated game, or your job requires
>> you to upgrade(?) to Adobe's latest creative cloud offering.
>
> Always mount a scratch monkey.

And what exactly is a scratch monkey?




From eugen at leitl.org  Sun Jul 21 09:07:26 2013
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2013 11:07:26 +0200
Subject: [ExI] a Cypherpunks comeback
Message-ID: <20130721090726.GY29404@leitl.org>

----- Forwarded message from "Riad S. Wahby" <rsw at jfet.org> -----

Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2013 12:41:25 -0400
From: "Riad S. Wahby" <rsw at jfet.org>
To: cpunks-recipients-suppressed at proton.jfet.org
Subject: a Cypherpunks comeback
User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15)

tl;dr: 
I'm writing to invite you back to the Cypherpunks mailing list. If
you're interested, you can join via
    https://al-qaeda.net/mailman/listinfo/cypherpunks

Hello,

In the past couple days I've exchanged emails with John Young and
Eugen Leitl on some brokenness in the Cypherpunks mailing list. This
discussion brought us to a discussion of attempting to resurrect the
list's wetware, as it were, in addition to its software. At Eugen's
request, John dug up a couple Majordomo WHO outputs from about 15 years
ago; I tidied up the lists, and now I'm writing to you.

So! if you still have an interest in crypto, privacy, and politics, and
if you want to discuss that interest with a bunch of like-minded weirdos
from the aether, you can subscribe yourself via the web interface above
or by sending an email with "subscribe" in the body to
cypherpunks-request at al-qaeda.net.

(I am aware the provocative choice of domain name may discourage you
somewhat. I can only tell you that I've been running a Cypherpunks list
of some sort from this domain for a bit over a decade, and I haven't yet
been spirited away in a black helicopter. Here's hoping for another
helicopter-free decade.)

Best regards, and welcome back, preemptively,

-=rsw
 on behalf of jya, eugen, and rsw

----- End forwarded message -----
-- 
Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://ativel.com http://postbiota.org
AC894EC5: 38A5 5F46 A4FF 59B8 336B  47EE F46E 3489 AC89 4EC5


From eugen at leitl.org  Sun Jul 21 10:11:07 2013
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2013 12:11:07 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Revealed: how Microsoft handed the NSA access to
 encrypted messages
In-Reply-To: <op.w0ka4ldv0wog37@nikita>
References: <CALAdGNTBw1ja4qoj36Uo4e3XBhtw4d+9fNbCZY1869qzvFT7zw@mail.gmail.com>
 <op.wz7lawx90wog37@nikita>
 <CAL_armjSS_0_wudpN-24wyT_zFiOpjs-_N1EFd2oiK469V4XRQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <op.wz7r2kio0wog37@nikita>
 <CAL_armhkKMe=wS4KPNZUPaC6aL4cq9MyV5SyyutznfAvSkNRqQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <op.w0am6xpy0wog37@nikita>
 <CAL_armg_Sje4kqq3vkHO2eVRai1vsB9-p68=EB6KJ_FPjA_9tg@mail.gmail.com>
 <op.w0b93rwu0wog37@nikita> <20130719133524.GU29404@leitl.org>
 <op.w0ka4ldv0wog37@nikita>
Message-ID: <20130721101106.GD29404@leitl.org>

On Sun, Jul 21, 2013 at 07:58:59PM +1200, Andrew Mckee wrote:
> On Sat, 20 Jul 2013 01:35:24 +1200, Eugen Leitl <eugen at leitl.org> wrote:
> 
> 
> >>Thats kinda what I do anyway, but that approach really doesn't help much
> >>if you want to play the latest internet activated game, or your job requires
> >>you to upgrade(?) to Adobe's latest creative cloud offering.
> >
> >Always mount a scratch monkey.
> 
> And what exactly is a scratch monkey?

http://edp.org/monkey.htm

Scratch Monkey Story

11 February 1987

This morning, I spoke for an hour with Laura Creighton, who wrote the device driver for the equipment between the monkeys and the computer.
This incident happened at the University of Toronto in late November of 1979 or 1980. The zoology department had used digital-to-analog and analog-to-digital converters in a large number of experiments, including attempting to synthesize pheromones to reduce breeding of beetles that fed on tobacco crops, some rat neurological experiments, and some cricket behavior/population studies. The rat experiments involved implanting electrodes in the rats' brains, and the rats experienced some pain. The Humane Society learned of this and raised complaints, resulting in the shutting down of the zoology department for a day while the experiment was stopped. The University of Toronto has the third or fourth most respected zoology department in the world and wanted to maintain that prestige, so there was lots of screaming to avoid having such a thing happening again.

The various data from the experiments was collected by PDP-11/05 front ends and sent to an 11/44. Laura Creighton had written the software for this, fixing a problem they had previously with the 11/44 not being fast enough to collect the data by itself. This was being done for 16 to 18 experiments.

The folks in the physiology section of the Department of Medicine (separate from Science, which contained the zoology department) had bought their first VAX, an 11/780, and wanted a similar set-up. So Laura Creighton and the zoology department agreed to set up their software for this. The physiology people decided not to use 11/05s in between, since the VAX was fast enough to handle the data. So five monkeys were fitted with caps intended to sense brain waves, and the caps were attached to various A-to-D and D-to-A converters (which were US Army surplus from 1956) which were in turn connected to the VAX. This connection was piggybacked on a disk drive (pre-RL02), which contained a disk and was mounted read-only?the read-only button was pressed and taped over with a warning not to remove it. In normal operation, software would read data from that drive and write it to a regular disk. The room containing the monkeys was several stories removed from the computer room.

After some time, the VAX crashed. It was on a service contract, and Digital was called. Laura Creighton was not called although she was on the short list of people who were supposed to be called in case of problem. The Digital Field Service engineer came in, removed the disk from the drive, figured it was then okay to remove the tape and make the drive writeable, and proceeded to put a scratch disk into the drive and run diagnostics which wrote to that drive.

Well, diagnostics for disk drives are designed to shake up the equipment. But monkey brains are not designed to handle the electrical signals they received. You can imagine the convulsions that resulted. Two of the monkeys were stunned, and three died. The Digital engineer needed to be calmed down; he was going to call the Humane Society. This became known as the Great Dead Monkey Project, and it leads of course to the aphorism I use as my motto: You should not conduct tests while valuable monkeys are connected, so "Always mount a scratch monkey."

Laura Creighton points out that although this is told as a gruesomely amusing story, three monkeys did lose their lives, and there are lessons to be learned in treatment of animals and risk management. Particularly, the sign on the disk drive should have explained why the drive should never have been enabled for write access.

? edp


From rolandodegilead at gmail.com  Sun Jul 21 10:23:29 2013
From: rolandodegilead at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Eugenio_Mart=EDnez?=)
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2013 12:23:29 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Inmortality and overpopulation
Message-ID: <CANSO=1k+TAqH3sSNq89ecEAXFa2MnKMDUeQxPi_bEhN+TC6FaA@mail.gmail.com>

(First of all, sorry for my english. I tried to translate it as best as I
could. Anyway, I think it?s perfectly understandable. I have been searching
about this topic, but I didn?t found anything. Is there a way to search
into the chat list historial? I am sorry if you have spoken about that.)

Some days ago, somebody among you - Can?t remember whom exactly - said
that, in a longeve society, a lot of the women who, nowadays, have their
sons before 40 because they don?t want to lose their opportunity,  would
stop having children before that age because they will have a longer
fertile period.

Still, as you may know - and I hope not to be wrong - every month, in
women, a egg cell arises and some of them are discarded. When all the egg
cells are depleted, there are no new ones made, but the menopauses arrives.

I always imagined inmortality like living as young adults indefinitely, but
this is probably very unrealistic.

If inmortality is deployed all around the world - I always imagine it as
something similar to smallpox eradication - , I think that we could have
two different scenarios:

1.Aging is slowed. Maybe in a x20 factor. So we have the body of a 1st year
old for 20 years, of a 2 years old until 40 etc (horrible).
Women would be fertile only every 20 months... It?s ok

2.Aging is stopped in some moment of our lifes. Anyway, without making
major changes in women bodys (apart from inmortality), they will be fertile
until age of 50/60 and then they will not be able to reproduce anymore -
and they are going to live for centuries with the idea of not being mothers
never- and they will lost a lot of interest in sex.

Probably you have the answers and I have to learn a lot about inmortality
before bring up these questions and make you lose your time. I?ll
investigate about it and, If I discover something relevant, I?ll make you
know.
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From eugen at leitl.org  Sun Jul 21 10:40:20 2013
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2013 12:40:20 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Inmortality and overpopulation
In-Reply-To: <CANSO=1k+TAqH3sSNq89ecEAXFa2MnKMDUeQxPi_bEhN+TC6FaA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANSO=1k+TAqH3sSNq89ecEAXFa2MnKMDUeQxPi_bEhN+TC6FaA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20130721104020.GH29404@leitl.org>

On Sun, Jul 21, 2013 at 12:23:29PM +0200, Eugenio Mart?nez wrote:

> If inmortality is deployed all around the world - I always imagine it as

There is enough matterenergy in the solar system alone for subjective
PYears of ~Avogadro number of human equivalents.

> something similar to smallpox eradication - , I think that we could have
> two different scenarios:
> 
> 1.Aging is slowed. Maybe in a x20 factor. So we have the body of a 1st year

If you have the means to stop aging in biology, you no longer need
biology. As such none of the limitations about what it means to be
human apply.

> old for 20 years, of a 2 years old until 40 etc (horrible).
> Women would be fertile only every 20 months... It?s ok
> 
> 2.Aging is stopped in some moment of our lifes. Anyway, without making
> major changes in women bodys (apart from inmortality), they will be fertile
> until age of 50/60 and then they will not be able to reproduce anymore -
> and they are going to live for centuries with the idea of not being mothers
> never- and they will lost a lot of interest in sex.

The only method you can profit from *right now* is human cryopreservation.
Most likely resuscitation mode from that arrested metabolism/biostasis
snapshot is by means of a destructive scan, and such abilities imply
existance of alternative substrates far surpassing biology. Due to 
cost and competivity reasons the bulk of posthuman habitation will be
off-planet, in a circumsolar cloud of solid-state nodes.
 
> Probably you have the answers and I have to learn a lot about inmortality
> before bring up these questions and make you lose your time. I?ll
> investigate about it and, If I discover something relevant, I?ll make you
> know.


From eugen at leitl.org  Sun Jul 21 11:07:16 2013
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2013 13:07:16 +0200
Subject: [ExI] [liberationtech] today's Spiegel edition
Message-ID: <20130721110716.GK29404@leitl.org>

----- Forwarded message from Jacob Appelbaum <jacob at appelbaum.net> -----

Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2013 10:52:43 +0000
From: Jacob Appelbaum <jacob at appelbaum.net>
To: liberationtech <liberationtech at lists.stanford.edu>
Subject: [liberationtech] today's Spiegel edition
Reply-To: liberationtech <liberationtech at lists.stanford.edu>

A new Spiegel edition is out and it is awesome. It contains leaked
documents that show that the BND, BfV, NSA and CIA worked together to do
domestic spying in Germany. It also covers more information about XKEYSCORE.

The PDF of the article has been leaked too:

  https://twitter.com/derPUPE/status/358891530267815936

For those that don't read German, I suggest reading anyway - the leaked
NSA document is in English and very telling.

Quote of the day:

(S//REL TO USA, FVEY) The German government modified its interpretation
of the G-10 Privacy Law, protecting the communications of German
citizens, to afford the BND more flexibility in sharing protected
information with foreign partners.

Once again, privacy by policy fails.

It is long past time for privacy by design through strong cryptography
and unmistakably clear legislation. With such changes, a
"re-interpretation" would cause those crypto systems to fail and this
would be part of the way we would alert people that they are under attack.

All the best,
Jacob
--
Too many emails? Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password by emailing moderator at companys at stanford.edu or changing your settings at https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech

----- End forwarded message -----
-- 
Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://ativel.com http://postbiota.org
AC894EC5: 38A5 5F46 A4FF 59B8 336B  47EE F46E 3489 AC89 4EC5


From anders at aleph.se  Sun Jul 21 10:56:07 2013
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2013 12:56:07 +0200
Subject: [ExI] turing again
In-Reply-To: <201307202235.r6KMZCTA014920@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <008d01cd5227$3a4c3f10$aee4bd30$@att.net>
 <201307202235.r6KMZCTA014920@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <51EBBE47.7000006@aleph.se>

On 2013-07-20 23:52, David Lubkin wrote:
> <http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk-news/2013/jul/19/enigma-codebreaker-alan-turing-posthumous-pardon?INTCMP=SRCH> 
>
> Enigma codebreaker Alan Turing to be given posthumous pardon
>
>
> Although I have no particular objection, I'm not big on posthumous 
> pardons.

Me neither. They don't make much sense legally or ethically (except 
perhaps in a few particular cases), and the arguments used to motivate 
them are often bad: 
http://blog.practicalethics.ox.ac.uk/2012/12/sui-generis-or-generic-gay-pardoning-alan-turing/

>
> I'd rather Turing be given an extraordinary honor, e.g., a posthumous 
> award of a hereditary peerage, making him superior to his brother (Sir 
> John Leslie Turing, 11th Baronet of Forevan). Or the Order of the 
> Garter, the highest order of chivalry, previously bestowed on 
> Churchill and Thatcher.
>
> I have no clue about what's possible and what's involved. But I'm 
> looking for a grand, unmistakable gesture.

As I argue in the above essay, the problem is that a pardon or honor 
doesn't help Turing, and any grand gesture is likely to be strongly 
attached to the awesome person Turing rather than the mistreated 
homosexual, so it will not have much positive effect on people and 
society in general as signalling. The gay marriage bill (it got Royal 
Assent on Wednesday) is going to have much bigger effects than anything 
done in the name of Turing.


-- 
Dr Anders Sandberg
Future of Humanity Institute
Oxford Martin School
Oxford University



From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Sun Jul 21 14:39:32 2013
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2013 07:39:32 -0700
Subject: [ExI] scratch monkey
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB4OcHUecjVVitPaAMixwY9biHPjCyMSsAqJUorE8cPq8g@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jul 21, 2013 at 5:00 AM, Eugen Leitl <eugen at leitl.org> wrote:

> Subject: Re: [ExI] Revealed: how Microsoft handed the NSA access to
>         encrypted messages
snip

>> >Always mount a scratch monkey.
>>
>> And what exactly is a scratch monkey?
>
> http://edp.org/monkey.htm
>
> Scratch Monkey Story
>
> 11 February 1987

The scratch part of the expression comes from the era of spinning
tapes.  A scratch tape that was used for intermediate data storage,
the contents of which you did not care about,  This was before
computer memory reached a MB, much less a GB so intermediate sort
results and the like were spooled to tape.  Writing to a scratch tape
did no harm.  "Mount" was the physical act of loading a tape and
enabling the computer to read it, and that is an expression still used
for disks to this day in Linux.

Keith


From msd001 at gmail.com  Sun Jul 21 14:58:03 2013
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2013 10:58:03 -0400
Subject: [ExI] scratch monkey
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB4OcHUecjVVitPaAMixwY9biHPjCyMSsAqJUorE8cPq8g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB4OcHUecjVVitPaAMixwY9biHPjCyMSsAqJUorE8cPq8g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOJFdbLLzxS2eXomQCTMh0gThfFAJQKYnOwOibKAYwhZHA0ZMg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jul 21, 2013 at 10:39 AM, Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> wrote:
> The scratch part of the expression comes from the era of spinning
> tapes.  A scratch tape that was used for intermediate data storage,
> the contents of which you did not care about,  This was before
> computer memory reached a MB, much less a GB so intermediate sort
> results and the like were spooled to tape.  Writing to a scratch tape
> did no harm.  "Mount" was the physical act of loading a tape and
> enabling the computer to read it, and that is an expression still used
> for disks to this day in Linux.

I assumed this use of scratch and mount.  Now that you've clarified, I
imagine what other mental picture one might have from "mount a scratch
monkey" - haha.


From brent.allsop at canonizer.com  Sun Jul 21 15:24:17 2013
From: brent.allsop at canonizer.com (Brent Allsop)
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2013 09:24:17 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Bitcoin Arbitrage Profitability? (Was Re: Bitcoin Moore's
	Law?)
In-Reply-To: <1374025809.25161.YahooMailNeo@web121204.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <51C7CDC8.7060709@canonizer.com>
 <1372050277.1634.YahooMailNeo@web121204.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <51D4E0D7.5080501@canonizer.com>
 <CAB2H9XK6bg-8_K75YiwSc_pX+bd1nZtxPJNCrVr9XteEmQNccg@mail.gmail.com>
 <51D59C6C.6000105@canonizer.com>
 <1373588887.76213.YahooMailNeo@web121204.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAK7-ons7_CgqMv7YcGv8nwzdAmLcoFXYhC-+kJQUNtiwyKj=4Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALbjWneDub292zuR+nN=GoG_M5WbZUb2TCQuA8jq1wtc4412=g@mail.gmail.com>
 <51E4C8D3.6090100@canonizer.com>
 <CAB2H9XKzF8rsqUd9OF6xYw0CGCZu1iUH7WCN0j0GBwTS440fmQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALbjWneAMaRnm0AKM0NDDvgVrbOqRdkLff75Ahqy4LOFNwYDFQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <1374025809.25161.YahooMailNeo@web121204.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <51EBFD21.1030308@canonizer.com>


Hi Gordon,

This is very interesting, thanks for pointing this out.  I trust your 
much more educated currency trading expertise in this much more than my 
own, so would be very interested in more of your thoughts along the 
following lines.

My less educated gut feel as to why this is happening is because where 
as before, there was no 'arbitrage' trading between currencies and 
such.  In other words, Bitcoins in some currencies would get way ahead 
of other currencies, given the relationships between the currencies.  In 
other words, a very profitable situation where people can buy Bitcoin in 
one currency, sell those Bitcoins for the other currency, and the 
convert back to the original currency - making a big circular profit, 
for as long as such circular price imbalances occur.

So, what I'm thinking is now there is some significant arbitrage trading 
going on, when this happens, preventing the imbalances form happening?  
Would you agree with my assumptions?

Some of the local Bitcoiners want to start doing this kind of Arbitrage, 
and AI based trading, having given up on mining.  I wondered what your 
thoughts on the profitability of such a vencher would be.  Would you be 
interested in investing in or contributing to such any group moving in 
this direction in any way...?  And why or why not?  I'm thinking of 
getting involved and wondered if, in your opinion, this would be a good 
idea?

I'm betting that any arbitrage / AI based trading going on so far, is 
done by individuals, or very small groups at best.  I think a large 
group of well organized open source experts could way outperform any 
such small groups.  I think such a huge group  of experts managed in a 
leaderless way, using the expert consensus building system at 
Canonizer.com could not only become very profitable for the people 
involved, even if some were only lightly involved, but such could also 
bring some significant stability to the Bitcoin market.

Anyone else have any thoughts?  Anyone else interested in getting 
involved in such in any, even very small way?  Anyone else think such is 
a good idea?  Or not?...

Anyone know anyone already doing any AI / arbitrage trading in Bitcoins?

I'm planning on attending the Inside Bitcion conference in NY next 
Tuesday.  Anyone else attending?

Brent Allsop





On 7/16/2013 7:50 PM, Gordon wrote:
> Getting back to my original point, before all this mumbo jumbo about a 
> supposed Moore's Law for gold supply or demand:
>
> Perhaps it's only a coincidence, but since about mid-June, bitcoin has 
> traded like a genuine gold-backed currency, which is more or less what 
> it is designed simulate.
>
> All other things being equal, when the dollar declines in value, it 
> takes more of them to buy an ounce of gold. Bitcoin declined when the 
> dollar rallied and rallied when the dollar declined.
>
> Gordon
> -- 
> To learn more about the Mormon Transhumanist Association, visit 
> http://transfigurism.org
> ---
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 
> Groups "Mormon Transhumanist Association" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send 
> an email to transfigurism+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to transfigurism at googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/transfigurism.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
>
>

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From kanzure at gmail.com  Sun Jul 21 15:33:10 2013
From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop)
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2013 10:33:10 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Bitcoin Arbitrage Profitability? (Was Re: Bitcoin Moore's
	Law?)
In-Reply-To: <51EBFD21.1030308@canonizer.com>
References: <51C7CDC8.7060709@canonizer.com>
 <1372050277.1634.YahooMailNeo@web121204.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <51D4E0D7.5080501@canonizer.com>
 <CAB2H9XK6bg-8_K75YiwSc_pX+bd1nZtxPJNCrVr9XteEmQNccg@mail.gmail.com>
 <51D59C6C.6000105@canonizer.com>
 <1373588887.76213.YahooMailNeo@web121204.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAK7-ons7_CgqMv7YcGv8nwzdAmLcoFXYhC-+kJQUNtiwyKj=4Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALbjWneDub292zuR+nN=GoG_M5WbZUb2TCQuA8jq1wtc4412=g@mail.gmail.com>
 <51E4C8D3.6090100@canonizer.com>
 <CAB2H9XKzF8rsqUd9OF6xYw0CGCZu1iUH7WCN0j0GBwTS440fmQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALbjWneAMaRnm0AKM0NDDvgVrbOqRdkLff75Ahqy4LOFNwYDFQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <1374025809.25161.YahooMailNeo@web121204.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <51EBFD21.1030308@canonizer.com>
Message-ID: <CABaSBazuGUXPBR2ef8DoZo9S_sNJ7rnJKgtN0faxfKEY4WV_Jw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jul 21, 2013 at 10:24 AM, Brent Allsop
<brent.allsop at canonizer.com>wrote:

> I'm betting that any arbitrage / AI based trading going on so far, is done
> by individuals, or very small groups at best


Nope, there's software written. The bitcoin community is extremely
technical. I don't think you should underestimate them in this department.

https://github.com/maxme/bitcoin-arbitrage

- Bryan
http://heybryan.org/
1 512 203 0507
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From brent.allsop at canonizer.com  Sun Jul 21 16:34:25 2013
From: brent.allsop at canonizer.com (Brent Allsop)
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2013 10:34:25 -0600
Subject: [ExI] [mta] Re:  Bitcion Moore's Law?
In-Reply-To: <CALbjWneigd=_Br6XxE8NWJKymohFb=678bpm6BhB209zS_SssQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <51C7CDC8.7060709@canonizer.com>
 <1372050277.1634.YahooMailNeo@web121204.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <51D4E0D7.5080501@canonizer.com>
 <CAB2H9XK6bg-8_K75YiwSc_pX+bd1nZtxPJNCrVr9XteEmQNccg@mail.gmail.com>
 <51D59C6C.6000105@canonizer.com>
 <1373588887.76213.YahooMailNeo@web121204.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAK7-ons7_CgqMv7YcGv8nwzdAmLcoFXYhC-+kJQUNtiwyKj=4Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALbjWneDub292zuR+nN=GoG_M5WbZUb2TCQuA8jq1wtc4412=g@mail.gmail.com>
 <51E4C8D3.6090100@canonizer.com>
 <CAB2H9XKzF8rsqUd9OF6xYw0CGCZu1iUH7WCN0j0GBwTS440fmQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALbjWneAMaRnm0AKM0NDDvgVrbOqRdkLff75Ahqy4LOFNwYDFQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <51E75805.6000008@canonizer.com>
 <CALbjWneigd=_Br6XxE8NWJKymohFb=678bpm6BhB209zS_SssQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <51EC0D91.3020209@canonizer.com>


Hi James,

On 7/18/2013 9:49 AM, James Carroll wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 8:50 PM, Brent Allsop 
> <brent.allsop at canonizer.com <mailto:brent.allsop at canonizer.com>> wrote:
>
>
>     I do have another question.  Would all you guys consider .00001% /
>     year growth, exponential growth? It seems like most of our
>     disagreement is just about how much exponential growth there is. 
>     And even the graph from 1900, would look very linear (as you seem
>     to think it is) with .00001% growth, right?
>
>
> Any "% growth" is exponential growth. In the short term, exponential 
> growth can look linear. However, there is no reason to suppose that it 
> isn't linear without more data.

Yes, but one can also be just as theoretically justified in arguing what 
appears to be linear could turn out to be exponential.  Long term, or 
within 100 years, if not way sooner, certainly we'll be mining huge sums 
of Gold from Asteroids, if not finding many more sources of Gold, having 
robots mine more gold than we could ever need, and so on.

> There is no reason to apriori suppose that every linear trend is 
> actually an exponential trend with a doubling rate that is so far out 
> that you can't see it yet.

Now we're getting down to the nuts and bolts of the argument.  How far 
out IS the doubling rate for Bitcoins?  Historically, Bitcoin valuations 
have been growing so fast, it's much better to talk about times for 10 
times increases, not just doubling times.  As the historical graph 
shows, the first 5 order of magnitude increases took less than 6 months, 
and happened unbelievable regularly.

http://canonizer.com/topic.asp/154/2

Only the most recent 10 times increase, took less than 2 years. That's a 
doubling rate of about 4 months, or 300% / year, the most aggressive 
supporters in the camp are predicting this rate will continue, in a 
Moore's law like way, at least until we reach a $1000/BTC valuation.  
The more conservative in the camp, are predicting a more conservative 
100% / year or doubling once a year rate, putting the first $1000/BTC 
valuation towards the end of 2016.

So, if either You, Gordon, or anyone disagree, what are you saying, and 
how many of you agree, compared to the emerging expert consensus?

Brent Allsop






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From brent.allsop at canonizer.com  Sun Jul 21 16:57:22 2013
From: brent.allsop at canonizer.com (Brent Allsop)
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2013 10:57:22 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: Re: [mta] Re:  Bitcion Moore's Law?
In-Reply-To: <1374131058.19511.YahooMailNeo@web121206.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <51E75805.6000008@canonizer.com> <51E75866.2050207@canonizer.com>
 <1374131058.19511.YahooMailNeo@web121206.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <51EC12F2.5040400@canonizer.com>


Hi Gordon,

I'm still struggling with this.  All I can see is you saying I am 
wrong.  But if I am wrong, what are you saying is right?  What is your 
best educated guess about when we will first reach a $1000/BTC valuation?

There is an emerging consensus with a growing number of experts 
contributing, including:

Vladimir Marchenko    http://canonizer.com/topic.asp/151/7
Jashua Seims                http://canonizer.com/topic.asp/151/2
<http://canonizer.com/topic.asp/151/7>
They are all already willing to help out with and/or put their name and 
reputation on the line, supporting the Moores Law like "Crypto Coin Law" 
here:

http://canonizer.com/topic.asp/154/2

If you have a different opinion, what is that opinion, and how many 
experts are willing to make the effort and willing to to put their 
reputation on the line to support such?  To me, how many people are 
willing to make an effort to 'canonize' their view, is a good indicator 
of the quality of their views.  Most people that haven't thought through 
things very clearly, aren't really very motivated, or aren't interested 
in other points of view, and they tend to discover they are full of 
mistaken BS, when they do think about it and see other points of view.  
The tendency for the noisy mistaken, non motivated beetling herd to self 
sensor in this way is one of the great things about Canonizer.com.   So 
I'm tempted to think the same for all people with opinions they aren't 
willing to Canonize.  If you are the only one that thinks the way you 
do, why should i care?  If lots of experts I trust, think the same, then 
I should definitely trust you more and spend more time listening to what 
not just you are saying.

Brent Allsop



On 7/18/2013 1:04 AM, Gordon wrote:
> Brent Allsop <brent.allsop at canonizer.com> wrote:
>
> >>So, the real question for you all still is, do you think the Value of 
> Bitcoin, will grow in a way at least as "Moore's Law" like as the 
> growth of integrated circuits have been<<|
>
> No.
>
> Rid yourself of this silly idea that the market for bitcoin is 
> supposed to operate according to something like Moore's Law, which is 
> basically a law of technical progress. The markets for commodities 
> including currencies do not work that way. Bitcoin can and I hope will 
> succeed, but it won't be because of some imaginary Moore's Law of Bitcoin.
>
> You need to study Econ, Brent, imo.
>
> Gordon

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From atymes at gmail.com  Sun Jul 21 17:20:59 2013
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2013 10:20:59 -0700
Subject: [ExI] scratch monkey
In-Reply-To: <CAOJFdbLLzxS2eXomQCTMh0gThfFAJQKYnOwOibKAYwhZHA0ZMg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB4OcHUecjVVitPaAMixwY9biHPjCyMSsAqJUorE8cPq8g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOJFdbLLzxS2eXomQCTMh0gThfFAJQKYnOwOibKAYwhZHA0ZMg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNT2xg=kFwczBiG39oGMqLM92=rz2DA1Srn7qMq2H+zejg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jul 21, 2013 at 7:58 AM, Mike Dougherty <msd001 at gmail.com> wrote:

> I assumed this use of scratch and mount.  Now that you've clarified, I
> imagine what other mental picture one might have from "mount a scratch
> monkey" - haha.
>

Quite amusing in abstract, yes.  But since today's non-technical crowd
would picture those other things first (and specific other things), I avoid
using that phrase these days.
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From atymes at gmail.com  Sun Jul 21 17:50:52 2013
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2013 10:50:52 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: Re: [mta] Re: Bitcion Moore's Law?
In-Reply-To: <51EC12F2.5040400@canonizer.com>
References: <51E75805.6000008@canonizer.com> <51E75866.2050207@canonizer.com>
 <1374131058.19511.YahooMailNeo@web121206.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <51EC12F2.5040400@canonizer.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNRYfbp-RQMsdhyMQAEzZ3RHjR0ROyG=5s2ujFhitGFBcA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jul 21, 2013 at 9:57 AM, Brent Allsop <brent.allsop at canonizer.com>wrote:

>  To me, how many people are willing to make an effort to 'canonize' their
> view, is a good indicator of the quality of their views.  Most people that
> haven't thought through things very clearly, aren't really very motivated,
> or aren't interested in other points of view, and they tend to discover
> they are full of mistaken BS, when they do think about it and see other
> points of view.  The tendency for the noisy mistaken, non motivated
> beetling herd to self sensor in this way is one of the great things about
> Canonizer.com.   So I'm tempted to think the same for all people with
> opinions they aren't willing to Canonize.  If you are the only one that
> thinks the way you do, why should i care?  If lots of experts I trust,
> think the same, then I should definitely trust you more and spend more time
> listening to what not just you are saying.
>

Careful.  There is a distinction between "lots of experts in the field
think this way" and "lots of experts have signed on to Canonizer.com and
expressed an opinion".

The primary distinction is, have they even heard of it?  If most have not,
then of course they won't Canonize even if there is broad consensus on an
issue.

A corollary is: do they think it is worth their time?  Canonizer does not
have a mass audience as of yet.  This is what I call the "inverse network
effect", as it is the short/bad end of the "network effect": when you have
a service that would be valuable with lots of users, it is not so valuable
at first when you don't have many users, and that itself drives away many
who would otherwise use it *regardless of how valuable the service could
have been*.  The exact turnover point varies (by utility even with few
users, by size of the field served, and other factors), but is typically
within a couple orders of magnitude of 1 million active users.
Canonizer.com has less than 1 million users who post at least once a month
(or at least once a quarter), right?

(This "inverse network effect" applies to things beyond Internet services.
For instance, it seems that 1 million people - and distinct geography of
some sort, preferably not presently claimed by another country - is about
the minimum you'd need to start a new country that would get recognized by
most current countries.  Make a serious press for countryhood when you're
less than 10,000 and you're just making things harder on yourself;
10,000-1,000,000 is possible but you'll be a minor player that many
countries won't bother acknowledging, especially if there's any controversy
vs. luddite norms such as claiming sovereign territory in space or
enshrining the proactionary principle in the constitution.)
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From atymes at gmail.com  Sun Jul 21 18:10:37 2013
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2013 11:10:37 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Inmortality and overpopulation
In-Reply-To: <CANSO=1k+TAqH3sSNq89ecEAXFa2MnKMDUeQxPi_bEhN+TC6FaA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANSO=1k+TAqH3sSNq89ecEAXFa2MnKMDUeQxPi_bEhN+TC6FaA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNT4LRud8g_fHVA2NmxVgRwBRQ2x7_uFzpk3MCBHDF5nnA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jul 21, 2013 at 3:23 AM, Eugenio Mart?nez <rolandodegilead at gmail.com
> wrote:

> Some days ago, somebody among you - Can?t remember whom exactly - said
> that, in a longeve society, a lot of the women who, nowadays, have their
> sons before 40 because they don?t want to lose their opportunity,  would
> stop having children before that age because they will have a longer
> fertile period.
>
> Still, as you may know - and I hope not to be wrong - every month, in
> women, a egg cell arises and some of them are discarded. When all the egg
> cells are depleted, there are no new ones made, but the menopauses arrives.
>

As Brent noted, if longevity is achieved in practice, that will be because
our control over biology is much increased.

It is quite likely that, by the time we get there, it will be possible to
"fix" a woman's ovaries (and related glands in the brain) to constantly
produce the right hormones without actually releasing an egg.  Fertility
only occurs when deliberate action is taken to release an egg cell.

Further, you have the mechanism of menopause slightly incorrect.  A woman's
ovaries contain thousands of proto-eggs, of which only a few hundred ever
develop.  When these age enough that they stop responding correctly to
hormones, the woman's hormonal balance is thrown off, and that causes
menopause.  Even with the pill (which tricks the brain into thinking that
ovulation just happened), that aging does not cease, so just because
they're not being released does not delay menopause.  (Though perhaps
menopause could be delayed by constantly taking the pill...)

Of course, that is the same "aging" that we intend to halt.  It is very
likely that any means biological immortality would either be preceded by,
or very quickly lead to, a way to get these proto-eggs to stop aging.  Just
a lifespan of at least 400 years, and keeping the eggs from aging (while
still viable), would extend a woman's fertile years by at least 10x (12ish
to 50ish = about 38 years; 12ish to 400ish = over 380 years).  And that's
not getting into creating new eggs, which should also be simple by that
point (or if not, well before the newly-extended fertile period is over).
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From gts_2000 at yahoo.com  Sun Jul 21 21:05:33 2013
From: gts_2000 at yahoo.com (Gordon)
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2013 14:05:33 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: Re: [mta] Re:  Bitcion Moore's Law?
In-Reply-To: <51EC12F2.5040400@canonizer.com>
References: <51E75805.6000008@canonizer.com> <51E75866.2050207@canonizer.com>
 <1374131058.19511.YahooMailNeo@web121206.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <51EC12F2.5040400@canonizer.com>
Message-ID: <1374440733.98497.YahooMailNeo@web121203.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

Brent Allsop <brent.allsop at canonizer.com> wrote:


>>I'm still struggling with this.? All I can see is you saying I am wrong.? But if I am wrong, what are you saying is right?<<

I'm saying...

1) Commodity markets do not operate according to anything like a Moore's Law. I gave you an example of how gold languished for a couple of decades due to macroeconomic factors like disinflation. There was not and is not anything like a Moore's Law operating either in the supply or demand for gold. Moore's Law is applicable (or at least was applicable) to the economics of certain kinds of technological progress, but it does not apply to commodity markets in general.

2) Bitcoin, like all precious metals and currencies, is a commodity. It is like a hybrid between a precious metal and an ordinary currency, both of which are commodities. It is a sort digital simulation of a gold-backed currency.

>>What is your best educated guess about when we will first reach a $1000/BTC valuation?<<


I've been around the financial markets long enough to be careful about making predictions as specific as that. Many factors are in play here, e.g., the acceptance of bitcoin as a currency, the operations of central banks around the world as they attempt to manage their money supplies, the possibilities of major financial crises in the world, and so on. I simply feel cautiously optimistic about the long term future of bitcoin.?

Gordon
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From pharos at gmail.com  Sun Jul 21 21:28:21 2013
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2013 22:28:21 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: Re: [mta] Re: Bitcion Moore's Law?
In-Reply-To: <1374440733.98497.YahooMailNeo@web121203.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <51E75805.6000008@canonizer.com> <51E75866.2050207@canonizer.com>
 <1374131058.19511.YahooMailNeo@web121206.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <51EC12F2.5040400@canonizer.com>
 <1374440733.98497.YahooMailNeo@web121203.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armhz4GGSYV7L9SOwDJeuwMqiA7bNdXF5eDmds=8S3eVAPQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jul 21, 2013 at 10:05 PM, Gordon  wrote:
> 1) Commodity markets do not operate according to anything like a Moore's
> Law. I gave you an example of how gold languished for a couple of decades
> due to macroeconomic factors like disinflation. There was not and is not
> anything like a Moore's Law operating either in the supply or demand for
> gold. Moore's Law is applicable (or at least was applicable) to the
> economics of certain kinds of technological progress, but it does not apply
> to commodity markets in general.
<snip>
>

What Brent needs is the standard statement that by law in the UK all
investment companies must quote in their offers.

Quote:
Past performance is not a guide to the future. Market and exchange
rate movements may cause the capital value of investments, and the
income from them, to go down as well as up and the investor may not
get back the amount originally invested.


BillK


From brent.allsop at canonizer.com  Sun Jul 21 22:46:22 2013
From: brent.allsop at canonizer.com (Brent Allsop)
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2013 16:46:22 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: Re: [mta] Re:  Bitcion Moore's Law?
In-Reply-To: <1374440733.98497.YahooMailNeo@web121203.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <51E75805.6000008@canonizer.com> <51E75866.2050207@canonizer.com>
 <1374131058.19511.YahooMailNeo@web121206.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <51EC12F2.5040400@canonizer.com>
 <1374440733.98497.YahooMailNeo@web121203.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <51EC64BE.4090000@canonizer.com>



Hi Gordon,

OK, great!  Finally something more than just destructive bleating 
infinitely repetitive negative noise.  "Cautiously optimistic" is 
something I can agree or disagree with, and I, and all participating 
experts, hapen to completely agree with.  So I propose the following to 
capture and rigorously measure this expert consensus, or lack thereof.

I propose we create and build a "Cautiously Optimistic" super camp that 
we all agree with, and which is 'exponentially' more important than the 
nitpicking stuff  we are wasting all of our infinitely repetitive time 
focusing on.  I'm sure all expert supporters of the "Law of the Crypto 
Coin" camp would agree to moving that camp into a supporting position of 
your camp.  We would likely agree that we are all probably not yet fully 
communicating how "cautiously optimistic" we are yet.

You could support that camp either directly, or you could could create a 
competing "anti 'law' of the crypto coin" sub camp, or whatever you want 
to call it, to show that in your expert opinion, it is not yet good to 
think of the future valuation of any crypto coins in any kind of Law 
like Way.  In that way, we can capture how many experts feel as you do, 
vs how many don't.  (my predictions is that your camp will remain in a 
clear minority, if any experts at all agree with you, but of course I 
could be wrong!)  Anyone else out there in either of these to "law" or 
"not" camps willing to help save the world by amplifying everyone's 
moral wisdom?

If I created a "Cautiously Optimistic" super camp, would you agree to 
helping the world out a bit by supporting it, either directly, or by 
creating a competing camp to our 'law of the crypto coin' camp?  Such 
takes far less time and effort than all the destructive, infinitely back 
and forth we've wasted so much of everyone's time on so far.

Upwards,

Brent Allsop





On 7/21/2013 3:05 PM, Gordon wrote:
> Brent Allsop <brent.allsop at canonizer.com> wrote:
>
> >>I'm still struggling with this.  All I can see is you saying I am wrong.  
> But if I am wrong, what are you saying is right?<<
>
> I'm saying...
>
> 1) Commodity markets do not operate according to anything like a 
> Moore's Law. I gave you an example of how gold languished for a couple 
> of decades due to macroeconomic factors like disinflation. There was 
> not and is not anything like a Moore's Law operating either in the 
> supply or demand for gold. Moore's Law is applicable (or at least was 
> applicable) to the economics of certain kinds of technological 
> progress, but it does not apply to commodity markets in general.
>
> 2) Bitcoin, like all precious metals and currencies, is a commodity. 
> It is like a hybrid between a precious metal and an ordinary currency, 
> both of which are commodities. It is a sort digital simulation of a 
> gold-backed currency.
>
> >>What is your best educated guess about when we will first reach a $1000/BTC valuation?<<
>
> I've been around the financial markets long enough to be careful about 
> making predictions as specific as that. Many factors are in play here, 
> e.g., the acceptance of bitcoin as a currency, the operations of 
> central banks around the world as they attempt to manage their money 
> supplies, the possibilities of major financial crises in the world, 
> and so on. I simply feel cautiously optimistic about the long term 
> future of bitcoin.
>
> Gordon
>
>
>

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From brent.allsop at canonizer.com  Mon Jul 22 00:59:52 2013
From: brent.allsop at canonizer.com (Brent Allsop)
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2013 18:59:52 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: Re: [mta] Re: Bitcion Moore's Law?
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armhz4GGSYV7L9SOwDJeuwMqiA7bNdXF5eDmds=8S3eVAPQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <51E75805.6000008@canonizer.com> <51E75866.2050207@canonizer.com>
 <1374131058.19511.YahooMailNeo@web121206.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <51EC12F2.5040400@canonizer.com>
 <1374440733.98497.YahooMailNeo@web121203.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAL_armhz4GGSYV7L9SOwDJeuwMqiA7bNdXF5eDmds=8S3eVAPQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <51EC8408.5010900@canonizer.com>


Bill,

No.  You are looking at this in a primitive, entirely wrong way. 
Canonizer.com is clearly a web based tool entirely based on expert 
OPINION.  So there is no law about what people can express and "sign" as 
clearly their current "opinion", nor is there any law for jumping camps, 
and so on.  Canonizer.com simply rigorously builds, measures and tracks 
all this expert consensus opinion, concisely and quantitatively.

If people are in a bad or immorally destructive camp, for two long it is 
their own reputation that will suffer, and such will be easily filtered 
out, as non expert opinion, going forward, when/if we reach the 
$1000/BTC valuation and then move on to the $10,000/BTC valuation 
predictions, then the $100,000/BTC Valuation after that, and so on.  
Whoever has been the most correct the longest, for all that, I, for one, 
will very much want to trust, and consult to make more educated bets on 
the future with.

Canonizer.com is a powerful open survey consensus building system that 
takes differences of opinion, and harnesses it in a way that motivates 
it to focus on the important moral things that most matter, so people 
can push the far lesser disagreeable issues they other wise can't escape 
and tend to focus on infinitely repetitively, into lower camps, and out 
of the way.

Brent Allsop




On 7/21/2013 3:28 PM, BillK wrote:
> On Sun, Jul 21, 2013 at 10:05 PM, Gordon  wrote:
>> 1) Commodity markets do not operate according to anything like a Moore's
>> Law. I gave you an example of how gold languished for a couple of decades
>> due to macroeconomic factors like disinflation. There was not and is not
>> anything like a Moore's Law operating either in the supply or demand for
>> gold. Moore's Law is applicable (or at least was applicable) to the
>> economics of certain kinds of technological progress, but it does not apply
>> to commodity markets in general.
> <snip>
> What Brent needs is the standard statement that by law in the UK all
> investment companies must quote in their offers.
>
> Quote:
> Past performance is not a guide to the future. Market and exchange
> rate movements may cause the capital value of investments, and the
> income from them, to go down as well as up and the investor may not
> get back the amount originally invested.
>
>
> BillK
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat



From gts_2000 at yahoo.com  Mon Jul 22 01:26:21 2013
From: gts_2000 at yahoo.com (Gordon)
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2013 18:26:21 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: Re: [mta] Re:  Bitcion Moore's Law?
In-Reply-To: <51EC64BE.4090000@canonizer.com>
References: <51E75805.6000008@canonizer.com> <51E75866.2050207@canonizer.com>
 <1374131058.19511.YahooMailNeo@web121206.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <51EC12F2.5040400@canonizer.com>
 <1374440733.98497.YahooMailNeo@web121203.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <51EC64BE.4090000@canonizer.com>
Message-ID: <1374456381.94148.YahooMailNeo@web121204.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

Brent Allsop <brent.allsop at canonizer.com> wrote:


>>OK, great!? Finally something more than just destructive bleating infinitely repetitive negative noise.<<

I didn't write anything in my last post that I had not already written to you at least once or twice, perhaps even three times, but I'm happy you like how I put it this time.

>> I propose we create and build a "Cautiously Optimistic" super camp that we all agree with....?If I created a "Cautiously Optimistic" super camp, would you agree to helping the world out a bit by supporting it, either directly, or by creating a competing camp to our 'law of the crypto coin' camp?? Such takes far less time and effort than all the destructive, infinitely back and forth we've wasted so much of everyone's time on so far.<<

I wish you well with your canonizer project but I don't feel inclined to participate. Perhaps in the future. Thanks for asking.

Gordon




On 7/21/2013 3:05 PM, Gordon wrote:

Brent Allsop <brent.allsop at canonizer.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>>>I'm still struggling with this.? All I can see is you saying I am wrong.? But if I am wrong, what are you saying is right?<<
>
>
>I'm saying...
>
>
>1) Commodity markets do not operate according to anything like a Moore's Law. I gave you an example of how gold languished for a couple of decades due to macroeconomic factors like disinflation. There was not and is not anything like a Moore's Law operating either in the supply or demand for gold. Moore's Law is applicable (or at least was applicable) to the economics of certain kinds of technological progress, but it does not apply to commodity markets in general.
>
>
>2) Bitcoin, like all precious metals and currencies, is a commodity. It is like a hybrid between a precious metal and an ordinary currency, both of which are commodities. It is a sort digital simulation of a gold-backed currency.
>
>
>>>What is your best educated guess about when we will first reach a $1000/BTC valuation?<<
>
>
>
>I've been around the financial markets long enough to be careful about making predictions as specific as that. Many factors are in play here, e.g., the acceptance of bitcoin as a currency, the operations of central banks around the world as they attempt to manage their money supplies, the possibilities of major financial crises in the world, and so on. I simply feel cautiously optimistic about the long term future of bitcoin.?
>
>
>Gordon
>
>
>
>
>
>

_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
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From gts_2000 at yahoo.com  Mon Jul 22 01:47:52 2013
From: gts_2000 at yahoo.com (Gordon)
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2013 18:47:52 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Bitcoin Arbitrage Profitability? (Was Re: Bitcoin
	Moore's	Law?)
In-Reply-To: <CABaSBazuGUXPBR2ef8DoZo9S_sNJ7rnJKgtN0faxfKEY4WV_Jw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <51C7CDC8.7060709@canonizer.com>
 <1372050277.1634.YahooMailNeo@web121204.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <51D4E0D7.5080501@canonizer.com>
 <CAB2H9XK6bg-8_K75YiwSc_pX+bd1nZtxPJNCrVr9XteEmQNccg@mail.gmail.com>
 <51D59C6C.6000105@canonizer.com>
 <1373588887.76213.YahooMailNeo@web121204.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAK7-ons7_CgqMv7YcGv8nwzdAmLcoFXYhC-+kJQUNtiwyKj=4Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALbjWneDub292zuR+nN=GoG_M5WbZUb2TCQuA8jq1wtc4412=g@mail.gmail.com>
 <51E4C8D3.6090100@canonizer.com>
 <CAB2H9XKzF8rsqUd9OF6xYw0CGCZu1iUH7WCN0j0GBwTS440fmQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALbjWneAMaRnm0AKM0NDDvgVrbOqRdkLff75Ahqy4LOFNwYDFQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <1374025809.25161.YahooMailNeo@web121204.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <51EBFD21.1030308@canonizer.com>
 <CABaSBazuGUXPBR2ef8DoZo9S_sNJ7rnJKgtN0faxfKEY4WV_Jw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1374457672.99048.YahooMailNeo@web121203.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

Bryan Bishop <kanzure at gmail.com> wrote:


On Sun, Jul 21, 2013 at 10:24 AM, Brent Allsop <brent.allsop at canonizer.com> wrote:

I'm betting that any arbitrage / AI based trading going on so far, is done by individuals, or very small groups at best
>Nope, there's software written. The bitcoin community is extremely technical. I don't think you should underestimate them in this department.

>https://github.com/maxme/bitcoin-arbitrage


I watched a video of a presentation by a statistician at the recent bitcoin conference in Silicon Valley. A question came up about the price discrepancies between markets, in particular between Mt.Gox and BTC-e. He replied along the lines that the price differences are probably due to differences in transaction costs and risks between the markets. In other words, that the markets are fairly efficient even if they may not appear that way. Perhaps it is because of this software that Bryan mentions.

The most interesting thing about his presentation, in my view, was his observation that intra-day price trends on Mt. Gox seem to exist, even if longer term trends might be an illusion. Unclear, however, whether these very short term trends can be exploited after considering transaction costs.?

Gordon
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From gts_2000 at yahoo.com  Mon Jul 22 04:45:38 2013
From: gts_2000 at yahoo.com (Gordon)
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2013 21:45:38 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: Re: [mta] Re: Bitcion Moore's Law?
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armhz4GGSYV7L9SOwDJeuwMqiA7bNdXF5eDmds=8S3eVAPQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <51E75805.6000008@canonizer.com> <51E75866.2050207@canonizer.com>
 <1374131058.19511.YahooMailNeo@web121206.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <51EC12F2.5040400@canonizer.com>
 <1374440733.98497.YahooMailNeo@web121203.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAL_armhz4GGSYV7L9SOwDJeuwMqiA7bNdXF5eDmds=8S3eVAPQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1374468338.10601.YahooMailNeo@web121206.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:


>>What Brent needs is the standard statement that by law in the UK all

investment companies must quote in their offers.?Quote:
Past performance is not a guide to the future. Market and exchange
rate movements may cause the capital value of investments, and the
income from them, to go down as well as up and the investor may not
get back the amount originally invested.<<

Yes. :)

In the world of investments it is practically or actually illegal to suggest that any asset will appreciate according to some "Law," whether it be a type of Moore's Law or otherwise, and this as it ought to be.?

Economics is called "the dismal science" for good reason. It is a social science, not a natural science.

Gordon
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From eugen at leitl.org  Mon Jul 22 07:00:05 2013
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2013 09:00:05 +0200
Subject: [ExI] scratch monkey
In-Reply-To: <CAOJFdbLLzxS2eXomQCTMh0gThfFAJQKYnOwOibKAYwhZHA0ZMg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB4OcHUecjVVitPaAMixwY9biHPjCyMSsAqJUorE8cPq8g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOJFdbLLzxS2eXomQCTMh0gThfFAJQKYnOwOibKAYwhZHA0ZMg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20130722070005.GU29404@leitl.org>

On Sun, Jul 21, 2013 at 10:58:03AM -0400, Mike Dougherty wrote:
> On Sun, Jul 21, 2013 at 10:39 AM, Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> wrote:
> > The scratch part of the expression comes from the era of spinning
> > tapes.  A scratch tape that was used for intermediate data storage,
> > the contents of which you did not care about,  This was before
> > computer memory reached a MB, much less a GB so intermediate sort
> > results and the like were spooled to tape.  Writing to a scratch tape
> > did no harm.  "Mount" was the physical act of loading a tape and
> > enabling the computer to read it, and that is an expression still used
> > for disks to this day in Linux.
> 
> I assumed this use of scratch and mount.  Now that you've clarified, I
> imagine what other mental picture one might have from "mount a scratch
> monkey" - haha.

In my original mail a scratch system is one you're not afraid to lose,
as opposed to production system. E.g. anything you're using for browsing
or any Internet-connected system really can be compromised, and should
be considered as tainted.

A good practice is to run a dedicated VM guest just for browsing, and
always reset to last known good snapshot state. In the simple case,
that could be just a Tails VM booting from a Tails .iso image.


From eugen at leitl.org  Mon Jul 22 08:45:21 2013
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2013 10:45:21 +0200
Subject: [ExI] [cryptography] a Cypherpunks comeback
In-Reply-To: <20130722074114.GA22908@netbook.cypherspace.org>
References: <20130721090726.GY29404@leitl.org>
 <20130722074114.GA22908@netbook.cypherspace.org>
Message-ID: <20130722084520.GA29404@leitl.org>

On Mon, Jul 22, 2013 at 09:41:14AM +0200, Adam Back wrote:
> Could you please get another domain name, that name is just ridiculous.
> 
> It might tickle your humour but I guarantee it does not 99% of potential
> subscribers...
> 
> Unless your hidden objective is to drive away potential subscribers.

For those who dislike posting to the "The Base", here's an alternative
domain for the same list: https://cpunks.org/mailman/options/cypherpunks
 
> Adam
> 
> On Sun, Jul 21, 2013 at 11:07:26AM +0200, Eugen Leitl wrote:
> >----- Forwarded message from "Riad S. Wahby" <rsw at jfet.org> -----
> >
> >Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2013 12:41:25 -0400
> >From: "Riad S. Wahby" <rsw at jfet.org>
> >To: cpunks-recipients-suppressed at proton.jfet.org
> >Subject: a Cypherpunks comeback
> >User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15)
> >
> >tl;dr:
> >I'm writing to invite you back to the Cypherpunks mailing list. If
> >you're interested, you can join via
> >   https://al-qaeda.net/mailman/listinfo/cypherpunks
> >
> >Hello,
> >
> >In the past couple days I've exchanged emails with John Young and
> >Eugen Leitl on some brokenness in the Cypherpunks mailing list. This
> >discussion brought us to a discussion of attempting to resurrect the
> >list's wetware, as it were, in addition to its software. At Eugen's
> >request, John dug up a couple Majordomo WHO outputs from about 15 years
> >ago; I tidied up the lists, and now I'm writing to you.
> >
> >So! if you still have an interest in crypto, privacy, and politics, and
> >if you want to discuss that interest with a bunch of like-minded weirdos
> >from the aether, you can subscribe yourself via the web interface above
> >or by sending an email with "subscribe" in the body to
> >cypherpunks-request at al-qaeda.net.
> >
> >(I am aware the provocative choice of domain name may discourage you
> >somewhat. I can only tell you that I've been running a Cypherpunks list
> >of some sort from this domain for a bit over a decade, and I haven't yet
> >been spirited away in a black helicopter. Here's hoping for another
> >helicopter-free decade.)
> >
> >Best regards, and welcome back, preemptively,
> >
> >-=rsw
> >on behalf of jya, eugen, and rsw
> >
> >----- End forwarded message -----
> >-- 
> >Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org
> >______________________________________________________________
> >ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://ativel.com http://postbiota.org
> >AC894EC5: 38A5 5F46 A4FF 59B8 336B  47EE F46E 3489 AC89 4EC5
> >_______________________________________________
> >cryptography mailing list
> >cryptography at randombit.net
> >http://lists.randombit.net/mailman/listinfo/cryptography
-- 
Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://ativel.com http://postbiota.org
AC894EC5: 38A5 5F46 A4FF 59B8 336B  47EE F46E 3489 AC89 4EC5


From bbenzai at yahoo.com  Mon Jul 22 09:35:01 2013
From: bbenzai at yahoo.com (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2013 02:35:01 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] turing again
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1374408002.6133.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.1.1374408002.6133.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <1374485701.83750.YahooMailNeo@web165006.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

David Lubkin <lubkin at unreasonable.com> wrote:


> 
> <http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk-news/2013/jul/19/enigma-codebreaker-alan-turing-posthumous-pardon?INTCMP=SRCH>
> Enigma codebreaker Alan Turing to be given posthumous pardon
> 
> 
> Although I have no particular objection, I'm not big on posthumous pardons.
> 
> I'd rather Turing be given an extraordinary honor, e.g., a posthumous 
> award of a hereditary peerage, making him superior to his brother 
> (Sir John Leslie Turing, 11th Baronet of Forevan). Or the Order of 
> the Garter, the highest order of chivalry, previously bestowed on 
> Churchill and Thatcher.
> 
> I have no clue about what's possible and what's involved. But I'm 
> looking for a grand, unmistakable gesture.


A 'pardon'?? That's outrageous.

You pardon people who did something wrong, and the pardon doesn't negate the wrongness of the thing they did.

Turing should get a posthumous grovelling apology.

All a 'pardon' does is acknowledge that the thing he did used to be illegal and isn't anymore, and we all know that.


Ben Zaiboc




From mrjones2020 at gmail.com  Mon Jul 22 12:10:18 2013
From: mrjones2020 at gmail.com (J.R. Jones)
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2013 08:10:18 -0400
Subject: [ExI] [cryptography] a Cypherpunks comeback
In-Reply-To: <20130722084520.GA29404@leitl.org>
References: <20130721090726.GY29404@leitl.org>
 <20130722074114.GA22908@netbook.cypherspace.org>
 <20130722084520.GA29404@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <CADDVf2KcgK9M2NxWjtN3CZZDEkfdvQt3Eqg9WKNpWtR-N-jLug@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jul 22, 2013 at 09:41:14AM +0200, Adam Back wrote:
>
> Unless your hidden objective is to drive away potential subscribers.


Sensitive, sensitive.  Do you shy away from using anything that says
American or USA on it?  Seeing as we've killed exponentially more people
than 'al queda' ever did/has/will.
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From rolandodegilead at gmail.com  Tue Jul 23 10:25:44 2013
From: rolandodegilead at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Eugenio_Mart=EDnez?=)
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2013 12:25:44 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Inmortality and overpopulation
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNT4LRud8g_fHVA2NmxVgRwBRQ2x7_uFzpk3MCBHDF5nnA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANSO=1k+TAqH3sSNq89ecEAXFa2MnKMDUeQxPi_bEhN+TC6FaA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNT4LRud8g_fHVA2NmxVgRwBRQ2x7_uFzpk3MCBHDF5nnA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANSO=1=wqZ7JPd=ZYMy=fs1+Y0-bN=BTwXsaYuvFjZ_LyZ8jvQ@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks to all of you.

I?ll no apologize for my english again. As the joke say: language
proficiency is important, selfconfidence is "importanter"

I didn?t realize that we will be able to modify some others fields of the
human biology. I have observed that forgetting that is a common mistake...
and I fell.

Thanks also for correct my idea of the menopause mechanism. Everything is
clear now :)


On Sun, Jul 21, 2013 at 8:10 PM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sun, Jul 21, 2013 at 3:23 AM, Eugenio Mart?nez <
> rolandodegilead at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Some days ago, somebody among you - Can?t remember whom exactly - said
>> that, in a longeve society, a lot of the women who, nowadays, have their
>> sons before 40 because they don?t want to lose their opportunity,  would
>> stop having children before that age because they will have a longer
>> fertile period.
>>
>> Still, as you may know - and I hope not to be wrong - every month, in
>> women, a egg cell arises and some of them are discarded. When all the egg
>> cells are depleted, there are no new ones made, but the menopauses arrives.
>>
>
> As Brent noted, if longevity is achieved in practice, that will be because
> our control over biology is much increased.
>
> It is quite likely that, by the time we get there, it will be possible to
> "fix" a woman's ovaries (and related glands in the brain) to constantly
> produce the right hormones without actually releasing an egg.  Fertility
> only occurs when deliberate action is taken to release an egg cell.
>
> Further, you have the mechanism of menopause slightly incorrect.  A
> woman's ovaries contain thousands of proto-eggs, of which only a few
> hundred ever develop.  When these age enough that they stop responding
> correctly to hormones, the woman's hormonal balance is thrown off, and that
> causes menopause.  Even with the pill (which tricks the brain into thinking
> that ovulation just happened), that aging does not cease, so just because
> they're not being released does not delay menopause.  (Though perhaps
> menopause could be delayed by constantly taking the pill...)
>
> Of course, that is the same "aging" that we intend to halt.  It is very
> likely that any means biological immortality would either be preceded by,
> or very quickly lead to, a way to get these proto-eggs to stop aging.  Just
> a lifespan of at least 400 years, and keeping the eggs from aging (while
> still viable), would extend a woman's fertile years by at least 10x (12ish
> to 50ish = about 38 years; 12ish to 400ish = over 380 years).  And that's
> not getting into creating new eggs, which should also be simple by that
> point (or if not, well before the newly-extended fertile period is over).
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>


-- 
OLVIDATE.DE
Tatachan.com
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From kpj at sics.se  Tue Jul 23 14:15:22 2013
From: kpj at sics.se (KPJ)
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2013 16:15:22 +0200
Subject: [ExI] [tt] a Cypherpunks comeback
In-Reply-To: <20130721090726.GY29404@leitl.org>
References: <20130721090726.GY29404@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <6e88928b350ad10e4a655119a952c4fd.squirrel@letter.sics.se>


On Sun, July 21, 2013 11:07, Eugen Leitl wrote:
| ----- Forwarded message from "Riad S. Wahby" <rsw at jfet.org> -----
| Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2013 12:41:25 -0400
| From: "Riad S. Wahby" <rsw at jfet.org>
| To: cpunks-recipients-suppressed at proton.jfet.org
| Subject: a Cypherpunks comeback
[...]
|
| So! if you still have an interest in crypto, privacy, and politics, and
| if you want to discuss that interest with a bunch of like-minded weirdos
| from the aether, you can subscribe yourself via the web interface above
| or by sending an email with "subscribe" in the body to
| cypherpunks-request at al-qaeda.net.
|
[...]

"Al Qaeda" means the "The Foundation" and is a well-known science-fiction
story by the US-American author Isaac Asimov.





From anders at aleph.se  Tue Jul 23 14:41:38 2013
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2013 16:41:38 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Long term "5D" data storage
Message-ID: <51EE9622.1010700@aleph.se>

Here is a neat little paper about storing information in 3D (+2 optical 
dimensions) in fused silica. The promising thing is that this might be 
very inert and stable, so it would make good really long term storage:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/07/23/southampton_unis_superman_storage_glass/

http://www.orc.soton.ac.uk/fileadmin/downloads/5D_Data_Storage_by_Ultrafast_Laser_Nanostructuring_in_Glass.pdf

The density is nice, but it is the stability that matters.

-- 
Anders Sandberg
Future of Humanity Institute
Oxford University


From eugen at leitl.org  Tue Jul 23 15:18:23 2013
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2013 17:18:23 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Long term "5D" data storage
In-Reply-To: <51EE9622.1010700@aleph.se>
References: <51EE9622.1010700@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <20130723151823.GT29404@leitl.org>

On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 04:41:38PM +0200, Anders Sandberg wrote:
> Here is a neat little paper about storing information in 3D (+2
> optical dimensions) in fused silica. The promising thing is that
> this might be very inert and stable, so it would make good really
> long term storage:
> 
> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/07/23/southampton_unis_superman_storage_glass/
> 
> http://www.orc.soton.ac.uk/fileadmin/downloads/5D_Data_Storage_by_Ultrafast_Laser_Nanostructuring_in_Glass.pdf
> 
> The density is nice, but it is the stability that matters.

The most durable semi-mainstream storage medium I'm aware of
is Glassmasterdisk http://www.lne.fr/publications/guides-documents-techniques/syylex-glass-dvd-accelerated-aging-report.pdf


From brent.allsop at canonizer.com  Tue Jul 23 20:43:44 2013
From: brent.allsop at canonizer.com (Brent Allsop)
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2013 14:43:44 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: Bitcion Moore's Law?
In-Reply-To: <51C7CDC8.7060709@canonizer.com>
References: <51C7CDC8.7060709@canonizer.com>
Message-ID: <CAK7-onvjuBGs5N7tRhTxCoeWzjG8tnjdKPYe2geR76JmSEQF2w@mail.gmail.com>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Brent Allsop <brent.allsop at canonizer.com>
Date: Sun, Jun 23, 2013 at 10:40 PM
Subject: Bitcion Moore's Law?
To: Mormon Transhumanist Association <transfigurism at googlegroups.com>, ExI
chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>




The new version of the "Canonized Law of the Crypto Coin" camp predicting
future values of Bitcion just went live.  It includes help from experts
including Joshua Seims, Micro Rominato, and a growing number of others.

http://canonizer.com/topic.**asp/154/2<http://canonizer.com/topic.asp/154/2>

It's predicting a continued Moore's Law like 100% / year growth, for the
foreseeable future, which will result in All Bitcions being worth more than
all Gold around 2025.

I'd love to know if any of you think anything contained in that camp
statement is in any way, irrational, or not completely believable by any of
you?

And if you think differently, what do you believe, why, and most
importantly, how many experts agree with you?

We'll be judging the quality of each expert's predictions, about when the
next order of magnitude of growth in value will be achieved, and using that
to better predict when future orders of magnitude will be achieved, and so
on for this crypto currency expert survey topic.

http://canonizer.com/topic.**asp/151 <http://canonizer.com/topic.asp/151>

Upwards,

Brent Allsop
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From pharos at gmail.com  Tue Jul 23 21:07:04 2013
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2013 22:07:04 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Bitcoin Arbitrage Profitability? (Was Re: Bitcoin Moore's
	Law?)
In-Reply-To: <1374457672.99048.YahooMailNeo@web121203.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <51C7CDC8.7060709@canonizer.com>
 <1372050277.1634.YahooMailNeo@web121204.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <51D4E0D7.5080501@canonizer.com>
 <CAB2H9XK6bg-8_K75YiwSc_pX+bd1nZtxPJNCrVr9XteEmQNccg@mail.gmail.com>
 <51D59C6C.6000105@canonizer.com>
 <1373588887.76213.YahooMailNeo@web121204.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <CAK7-ons7_CgqMv7YcGv8nwzdAmLcoFXYhC-+kJQUNtiwyKj=4Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALbjWneDub292zuR+nN=GoG_M5WbZUb2TCQuA8jq1wtc4412=g@mail.gmail.com>
 <51E4C8D3.6090100@canonizer.com>
 <CAB2H9XKzF8rsqUd9OF6xYw0CGCZu1iUH7WCN0j0GBwTS440fmQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALbjWneAMaRnm0AKM0NDDvgVrbOqRdkLff75Ahqy4LOFNwYDFQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <1374025809.25161.YahooMailNeo@web121204.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <51EBFD21.1030308@canonizer.com>
 <CABaSBazuGUXPBR2ef8DoZo9S_sNJ7rnJKgtN0faxfKEY4WV_Jw@mail.gmail.com>
 <1374457672.99048.YahooMailNeo@web121203.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armg58wV4JbTrvesezZYphtfuBcaT1689fMefB=G-E6TMvA@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jul 22, 2013 at 2:47 AM, Gordon wrote:
> I watched a video of a presentation by a statistician at the recent bitcoin
> conference in Silicon Valley. A question came up about the price
> discrepancies between markets, in particular between Mt.Gox and BTC-e. He
> replied along the lines that the price differences are probably due to
> differences in transaction costs and risks between the markets. In other
> words, that the markets are fairly efficient even if they may not appear
> that way. Perhaps it is because of this software that Bryan mentions.
>
>

<http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/07/23/bitcoin_ponzi_scheme/>

Texas man charged in multimillion-dollar Bitcoin Ponzi scheme

On Tuesday, the SEC announced that it has charged Trendon Shavers of
McKinney, Texas with operating a Ponzi scheme under the name Bitcoin
Savings and Trust (BTCST).

The agency alleges that BTCST offered Bitcoin-denominated investments
over the internet at interest rates of up to 7 per cent per week,
which Shavers claimed was possible because of arbitrage opportunities
inherent in the Bitcoin market.
-------------------


BillK


From natasha at natasha.cc  Fri Jul 26 18:35:09 2013
From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More)
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2013 11:35:09 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Bulletproof Executive Podcast
Message-ID: <00cb01ce8a2e$db88d6f0$929a84d0$@natasha.cc>

http://www.bulletproofexec.com/51-transhumanism-technology-the-future-with-n
atasha-vita-more-podcast/

 

I have gotten some positive and fascinating feedback!

 

 <http://www.natasha.cc/> Natasha Vita-More, PhD

NEW Book: Co-Editor: The Transhumanist Reader: Contemporary and Classical
Essays on the
Science, Technology, and Philosophy of the Human Future (Wiley-Blackwell
Pub.)
<http://www.amazon.com/Transhumanist-Reader-Contemporary-Technology-Philosop
hy/dp/1118334310/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1363616965&sr=1-1&keywords=t
he+transhumanist+reader> Available at Amazon!

Final Cover Design_email

Adjunct Professor, University of Advancing Technology

Chairman,  <http://www.humanityplus.org/> Humanity+



 

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From painlord2k at libero.it  Sat Jul 27 19:21:10 2013
From: painlord2k at libero.it (Mirco Romanato)
Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2013 21:21:10 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: Bitcoin Moore's Law?
In-Reply-To: <CAK7-onvjuBGs5N7tRhTxCoeWzjG8tnjdKPYe2geR76JmSEQF2w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <51C7CDC8.7060709@canonizer.com>
 <CAK7-onvjuBGs5N7tRhTxCoeWzjG8tnjdKPYe2geR76JmSEQF2w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <51F41DA6.7080701@libero.it>

Il 23/07/2013 22:43, Brent Allsop ha scritto:

> The new version of the "Canonized Law of the Crypto Coin" camp
> predicting future values of Bitcion just went live.  It includes help
> from experts including Joshua Seims, Micro Rominato, and a growing
> number of others.


Brent, do you believe a post-human will be indifferent to spelling?

Mirco


From andymck35 at gmail.com  Thu Jul 25 21:34:52 2013
From: andymck35 at gmail.com (Andrew Mckee)
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2013 09:34:52 +1200
Subject: [ExI] list test
In-Reply-To: <20130710152210.GW24217@leitl.org>
References: <20130710152210.GW24217@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <op.w0srkebl0wog37@nikita>

Hi there, looks like the list just went dead a few days back, so anyone else out there still?


From atymes at gmail.com  Sat Jul 27 21:02:41 2013
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2013 14:02:41 -0700
Subject: [ExI] list test
In-Reply-To: <op.w0srkebl0wog37@nikita>
References: <20130710152210.GW24217@leitl.org>
	<op.w0srkebl0wog37@nikita>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNR1QmAOD8j-qGgPxZ4JjShvhaM7eOnDBTQnSKPDODdvbA@mail.gmail.com>

Yes.


On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 2:34 PM, Andrew Mckee <andymck35 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi there, looks like the list just went dead a few days back, so anyone
> else out there still?
> ______________________________**_________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/**mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-**chat<http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat>
>
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From pharos at gmail.com  Sat Jul 27 22:34:00 2013
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2013 23:34:00 +0100
Subject: [ExI] list test
In-Reply-To: <op.w0srkebl0wog37@nikita>
References: <20130710152210.GW24217@leitl.org>
	<op.w0srkebl0wog37@nikita>
Message-ID: <CAL_armhRmV2N4t03bdOhzAs6dMbNKoWthZAsCnPy6fxuPYd5rA@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 10:34 PM, Andrew Mckee wrote:
> Hi there, looks like the list just went dead a few days back, so anyone else
> out there still?
>

That's what happens when Spike goes on holiday.........

BillK


From pharos at gmail.com  Thu Jul 25 22:07:05 2013
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2013 23:07:05 +0100
Subject: [ExI] =?windows-1252?q?Scientists_discover_what=92s_killing_the_b?=
	=?windows-1252?q?ees_and_it=92s_worse_than_you_thought?=
Message-ID: <CAL_armiNL3Srb5+SONX3MpdSS1zzwyYD=at=TvC-a_8PjPVGxQ@mail.gmail.com>

In a first-of-its-kind study published today in the journal PLOS ONE,
scientists at the University of Maryland and the US Department of
Agriculture have identified a witch?s brew of pesticides and
fungicides contaminating pollen that bees collect to feed their hives.

<http://qz.com/107970/scientists-discover-whats-killing-the-bees-and-its-worse-than-you-thought/>

The pollen was contaminated on average with nine different pesticides
and fungicides though scientists discovered 21 agricultural chemicals
in one sample. Scientists identified eight ag chemicals associated
with increased risk of infection by the parasite.
?The pesticide issue in itself is much more complex than we have led
to be believe,? he says. ?It?s a lot more complicated than just one
product, which means of course the solution does not lie in just
banning one class of product.?
----------


The problem now seems to be that modern agriculture requires a
chemical cocktail of pesticides and fungicides that mix in the pollen
to overwhelm the bees. If this is correct then going back to more
natural agriculture methods may be necessary to save the bees. But
that implies lower food production. Though without bees for
pollination that also implies lower food production.


BillK



From ALONZOTG at verizon.net  Mon Jul 22 06:11:56 2013
From: ALONZOTG at verizon.net (Alan Grimes)
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2013 02:11:56 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Story part 2 yet again.
Message-ID: <51ECCD2C.2020203@verizon.net>

I'm having a bit of trouble figuring out the plot of the later chapters 
(which needs to be decided before going to crazy writing the early 
chapters.)

In the past I had been making some general requests for information. 
Today I have some specific questions. (no specific order), assume a 
scenario where everyone is uploaded.


# How will VR environments be provisioned? How much work will be 
required of the user to create a VR? Where would the terminally 
incompetent get their VRs?

# How large of a VR would a user be allowed to build?

# What limitations on creating sentient characters to populate the VR? 
(this is obviously deeply problematic on many fronts).

# What rights/limitations would a user have in a public VR?

# Would the user be guaranteed unalienable rights to exist and 
communicate in public VRs?

# Would private VR spaces be considered a natural right?

# What limitations would there be on how a user manafests himself in a 
public VR environment?

# What limitations would a user have on the type of avatar that could be 
attached to his emulated humanoid nervous system?

# Is there any alternative to the following mode of self modification 
beyond basic tuning parameters:   --> You load a copy of yourself from a 
backup made a few moments ago, modify it, attempt to run it, if it seems 
to work, you then delete yourself.

*** The current dominant theme, that of a heliocentric cloud of 
computronium bricks seems to imply a central authority that, at the very 
least, dictates communications protocols and orbital configurations.

# What rights would the least privileged user to access base reality?

*** Assume that the overwhelming majority of the population was 
force-uploaded and re-answer the previous question.

# Are there any problems with the following scenario:   You detect a 
problem that will inevitably cause a cascade failure across the entire 
network but since you are on the ignore list of everyone connected with 
the central authority you can't even report your bug. The people in the 
central authority have been running human emulated brain patterns for 
subjective thousands of years and have become senile (due to the 
exhaustion of potential synapses between their neurons), and complacent 
and refuse to even acknowledge the possibility of such a problem... So 
basically everyone trapped in this nightmare tried to go around the 
simulator with a count-down clock to when everything would collapse 
hovering over their heads, trying to warn the few who could actually do 
something about it, until the clock reached zero and everything just 
stopped. =(


-- 
NOTICE: NEW E-MAIL ADDRESS, SEE ABOVE

Powers are not rights.



From ALONZOTG at verizon.net  Wed Jul 24 21:31:47 2013
From: ALONZOTG at verizon.net (Alan Grimes)
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2013 17:31:47 -0400
Subject: [ExI] SINGULARITY ALERT: Fast image processing algorithm.
Message-ID: <51F047C3.7040104@verizon.net>

Here's the free article:
http://research.google.com/pubs/pub40814.html


I believe that this is a very significant development because it shows 
an important cognitive process being implemented on a single desktop 
machine, not even a server, cluster, or mainframe.

I have only skimmed the article so far, but it seems to have the general 
characteristics of what I believe to be the ideal intelligence 
algorithm. (the same techniques should be applicable to all cognitive 
functions). This has a number of implications, first human level 
intelligence should be feasible with less than a half-million dollars of 
hardware. Second, it means that AGI systems will out-perform human 
intelligence by a factor of about a million, considering the problems of 
low-level emulation of dendritic arbors.

-- 
NOTICE: NEW E-MAIL ADDRESS, SEE ABOVE

Powers are not rights.



From msd001 at gmail.com  Sun Jul 28 04:11:14 2013
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2013 00:11:14 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Story part 2 yet again.
In-Reply-To: <51ECCD2C.2020203@verizon.net>
References: <51ECCD2C.2020203@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <CAOJFdbLAB6vqEEuv7xHS6kam55K9U5Wf-TpZweUcZKANEfjxAg@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jul 22, 2013 at 2:11 AM, Alan Grimes <ALONZOTG at verizon.net> wrote:
> # Are there any problems with the following scenario:   You detect a problem
> that will inevitably cause a cascade failure across the entire network but
> since you are on the ignore list of everyone connected with the central
> authority you can't even report your bug. The people in the central
> authority have been running human emulated brain patterns for subjective
> thousands of years and have become senile (due to the exhaustion of
> potential synapses between their neurons), and complacent and refuse to even
> acknowledge the possibility of such a problem... So basically everyone
> trapped in this nightmare tried to go around the simulator with a count-down
> clock to when everything would collapse hovering over their heads, trying to
> warn the few who could actually do something about it, until the clock
> reached zero and everything just stopped. =(

You mean like wearing a sandwich board saying "the End is Near" and
hoping that just the right influential person will take time out of
their influential day to ask "so what's that all about?" in order to
save the world?

It sounds like a B movie.


From spike at rainier66.com  Sun Jul 28 04:20:29 2013
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike)
Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2013 21:20:29 -0700
Subject: [ExI] list test
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armhRmV2N4t03bdOhzAs6dMbNKoWthZAsCnPy6fxuPYd5rA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20130710152210.GW24217@leitl.org>	<op.w0srkebl0wog37@nikita>
 <CAL_armhRmV2N4t03bdOhzAs6dMbNKoWthZAsCnPy6fxuPYd5rA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <001701ce8b49$cca211d0$65e63570$@rainier66.com>

On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 10:34 PM, Andrew Mckee wrote:
> Hi there, looks like the list just went dead a few days back, so 
> anyone else out there still?
>

That's what happens when Spike goes on holiday.........

BillK


I'll be back home tomorrow.  I was out camping, no internet, no cell phone,
nothing.  It was hell.  I was reduced to primitive savagery, devouring
roots, bark, and that revolting goo left in the can when one removes the
spam.  For those younger than 40, yes there was an alternate definition to
that term back before email.  Now I am still camping but near the city, so I
have phone hotspot internet, and oh my it feels better than an orgasm.

I have been totally out of the loop for what seems like ages, not even any
news, so if anything big happened I am dumber than a box of rocks about it,
completely ignorant, oy.  I definitely need to get 24/7 internet direct to
brain.  Either that or give up camping.

Oh but I have some TERRIFIC wildlife observations however, oh my.

Apologies to anyone who wrote and I haven't answered.

spike

-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of BillK
Sent: Saturday, July 27, 2013 3:34 PM
To: ExI chat list
Subject: Re: [ExI] list test

_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat



From crw at crwbot.com  Sun Jul 28 04:37:58 2013
From: crw at crwbot.com (Christopher Whipple)
Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2013 21:37:58 -0700
Subject: [ExI] list test
In-Reply-To: <001701ce8b49$cca211d0$65e63570$@rainier66.com>
References: <20130710152210.GW24217@leitl.org> <op.w0srkebl0wog37@nikita>
 <CAL_armhRmV2N4t03bdOhzAs6dMbNKoWthZAsCnPy6fxuPYd5rA@mail.gmail.com>
 <001701ce8b49$cca211d0$65e63570$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAMUwNG0zdyhC7635WL9e03uQKDqnnGMaEX6L7k93XtqCRVmuOw@mail.gmail.com>

Nothing major. Light stopped in crystal, memories implanted in mice, North
Pole melted, Manning verdict any day now. The usual.


On Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 9:20 PM, spike <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:

> On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 10:34 PM, Andrew Mckee wrote:
> > Hi there, looks like the list just went dead a few days back, so
> > anyone else out there still?
> >
>
> That's what happens when Spike goes on holiday.........
>
> BillK
>
>
> I'll be back home tomorrow.  I was out camping, no internet, no cell phone,
> nothing.  It was hell.  I was reduced to primitive savagery, devouring
> roots, bark, and that revolting goo left in the can when one removes the
> spam.  For those younger than 40, yes there was an alternate definition to
> that term back before email.  Now I am still camping but near the city, so
> I
> have phone hotspot internet, and oh my it feels better than an orgasm.
>
> I have been totally out of the loop for what seems like ages, not even any
> news, so if anything big happened I am dumber than a box of rocks about it,
> completely ignorant, oy.  I definitely need to get 24/7 internet direct to
> brain.  Either that or give up camping.
>
> Oh but I have some TERRIFIC wildlife observations however, oh my.
>
> Apologies to anyone who wrote and I haven't answered.
>
> spike
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
> [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of BillK
> Sent: Saturday, July 27, 2013 3:34 PM
> To: ExI chat list
> Subject: Re: [ExI] list test
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From andymck35 at gmail.com  Sat Jul 27 18:43:28 2013
From: andymck35 at gmail.com (Andrew Mckee)
Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2013 06:43:28 +1200
Subject: [ExI] list test
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armhRmV2N4t03bdOhzAs6dMbNKoWthZAsCnPy6fxuPYd5rA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20130710152210.GW24217@leitl.org> <op.w0srkebl0wog37@nikita>
 <CAL_armhRmV2N4t03bdOhzAs6dMbNKoWthZAsCnPy6fxuPYd5rA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <op.w0v8yqlr0wog37@nikita>

On Sun, 28 Jul 2013 10:34:00 +1200, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 10:34 PM, Andrew Mckee wrote:
>> Hi there, looks like the list just went dead a few days back, so anyone else
>> out there still?
>>
>
> That's what happens when Spike goes on holiday.........

Phew, for a moment there I thought something really bad had happened to the list.

But I happened to click on the link at the bottom of every list email and discovered that Extropy.org had expired on the 23rd, and is currently up for renewal or deletion, had me wondering...





From anders at aleph.se  Sun Jul 28 06:16:38 2013
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2013 08:16:38 +0200
Subject: [ExI] SINGULARITY ALERT: Fast image processing algorithm.
In-Reply-To: <51F047C3.7040104@verizon.net>
References: <51F047C3.7040104@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <51F4B746.9020709@aleph.se>

On 2013-07-24 23:31, Alan Grimes wrote:
> Here's the free article:
> http://research.google.com/pubs/pub40814.html
>
> I believe that this is a very significant development because it shows
> an important cognitive process being implemented on a single desktop
> machine, not even a server, cluster, or mainframe.
>
> I have only skimmed the article so far, but it seems to have the general
> characteristics of what I believe to be the ideal intelligence
> algorithm.

Not so convinced it is general intelligence, since locality-sensitive 
hashing seems to be suited only for domains that have some kind of 
spatial structure. But still, it is a very neat result. And it shows 
that a single insight into an algorithm can boost the efficiency by four 
orders of magnitude.

I think a more important use is detection of constellations of objects 
in images. Imagine indexing all photos by what objects are seen: other 
algorithms can then use this sparse input to efficiently look for 
patterns. (like "photos showing teenage girl's rooms" or 
"foreign-looking people reading Islamic literature") The search and 
surveillance applications are pretty promising, since the error rate in 
individual object detection is now countered by the far lower likelihood 
of errors in all present objects.



-- 
Anders Sandberg
Future of Humanity Institute
Oxford University


From anders at aleph.se  Sun Jul 28 06:33:59 2013
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2013 08:33:59 +0200
Subject: [ExI] list test
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armhRmV2N4t03bdOhzAs6dMbNKoWthZAsCnPy6fxuPYd5rA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20130710152210.GW24217@leitl.org> <op.w0srkebl0wog37@nikita>
 <CAL_armhRmV2N4t03bdOhzAs6dMbNKoWthZAsCnPy6fxuPYd5rA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <51F4BB57.6010408@aleph.se>

On 2013-07-28 00:34, BillK wrote:
> On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 10:34 PM, Andrew Mckee wrote:
>> Hi there, looks like the list just went dead a few days back, so anyone else
>> out there still?
>>
>
> That's what happens when Spike goes on holiday.........

And no doubt when many of the rest of us are away too.

Email lists need a critical mass: if you see an email you might respond 
with some probability p, but without email you are unlikely to remember 
the list (post probability q << p). So the number of posts next day from 
N people will be
posts = N[p(1-(1-p)^N) + q(1-p)^N]

If this is larger than one, then the day after that there will be more 
posts, and so on, and the list shifts into high activity mode (I ignore 
the ceiling effect, where too high post rates makes people post less 
since they cannot keep up; feel free to extend the model). This 
transition happens when N becomes large enough (about N>1/p): you need 
enough posters for a given p to maintain reliable activity. If N and p 
decreases (holidays) the list can shift to a low state. q is what 
ensures there will be occasional revivals when things have fallen 
silent: Andrew's post is a fine example of a q-type post.

Another social list I am on has a far lower q, interestingly enough. It 
was completely silent for several weeks, until finally somebody asked 
Andrew's question, at which it jumped to its normal high activity mode. 
We seem to have a large N but even us actives have a somewhat low p, 
while the other list has a smaller N but higher p.

-- 
Anders Sandberg
Future of Humanity Institute
Oxford University


From pharos at gmail.com  Sun Jul 28 08:45:54 2013
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2013 09:45:54 +0100
Subject: [ExI] list test
In-Reply-To: <51F4BB57.6010408@aleph.se>
References: <20130710152210.GW24217@leitl.org> <op.w0srkebl0wog37@nikita>
 <CAL_armhRmV2N4t03bdOhzAs6dMbNKoWthZAsCnPy6fxuPYd5rA@mail.gmail.com>
 <51F4BB57.6010408@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <CAL_armjNuYn6M6DVkrFFbJmMCwqR1AWCzb8g+Bq+03Q=_hGtBw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jul 28, 2013 at 7:33 AM, Anders Sandberg  wrote:
> Email lists need a critical mass: if you see an email you might respond with
> some probability p, but without email you are unlikely to remember the list
> (post probability q << p). So the number of posts next day from N people
> will be
> posts = N[p(1-(1-p)^N) + q(1-p)^N]
>
> If this is larger than one, then the day after that there will be more
> posts, and so on, and the list shifts into high activity mode (I ignore the
> ceiling effect, where too high post rates makes people post less since they
> cannot keep up; feel free to extend the model). This transition happens when
> N becomes large enough (about N>1/p): you need enough posters for a given p
> to maintain reliable activity. If N and p decreases (holidays) the list can
> shift to a low state. q is what ensures there will be occasional revivals
> when things have fallen silent: Andrew's post is a fine example of a q-type
> post.
>

Yes, but.......

In this case the extropy.org registration expired on 21 July 2013
causing extropy.org and their lists to go dead.

The registration was renewed on 27 July 2013 and life restarted.

I am surprised how often this happens to internet companies, even big
companies like Microsoft.
Makes one think that there must be a better system just waiting to be
implemented.


BillK


From spike at rainier66.com  Sun Jul 28 16:01:03 2013
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike)
Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2013 09:01:03 -0700
Subject: [ExI] a complicated patient is the bee:  was  RE:  list test
Message-ID: <003601ce8bab$ab793940$026babc0$@rainier66.com>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of BillK
Sent: Sunday, July 28, 2013 1:46 AM
To: ExI chat list
Subject: Re: [ExI] list test

On Sun, Jul 28, 2013 at 7:33 AM, Anders Sandberg  wrote:
> Email lists need a critical mass: if you see an email you might 
> respond with some probability p, but without email you are unlikely to 
> remember the list (post probability q << p). So the number of posts 
> next day from N people will be posts = N[p(1-(1-p)^N) + q(1-p)^N]
>...Andrew's post is a fine example of a q-type post.
> Anders

Ja, and this happens with the crazy interesting scientific development: a
general consensus on what is killing the bees.  I am particularly interested
in this because it agrees with what I had concluded: the reason the cause of
the bees decline was so hard to solve is that there were a hundred
perpetrators.  

A doctor's least favorite patient is the one with such a complicated medical
picture she can't help the patient, no one can.  Even House is stumped.  The
patient takes a pile of prescribed medications, eats vitamins and Chinese
herbs by the handful, has a weird diet misguided by a number of internet fad
notions which are contradictory and contain both known and unknown harmful
interactions, smokes heavily, drinks heavily, eats too much, never exercises
and does recreational pharmaceuticals, keeps an irregular schedule and lies
about what he is ingesting, doesn't even know every herb and drug he takes
even when he tells the truth about it.  Clearly the patient is declining
rapidly, but the doctors can do little about it, because the picture is so
complicated, it is impossible to tell which habit is killing him the
fastest.

The honeybee is the bug equivalent of the complicated patient.  Too many
inputs, some of them unknown, the collective effect clearly harmful and
possibly fatal to both the patient and her dependents.  

Imagine the above patient who gives up smoking but continues to decline.  He
comes back to the doctor and says "See there, smoking wasn't causing the
problems.  May I go back to smoking now?"  

Prediction: the USA will get a ban on neonicotinoids which will likely help,
but the bees will still decline from a wildly complicated combination of
other factors, creating a huge debate on whether the neonics were
contributing to the decline.



From max at maxmore.com  Sun Jul 28 17:37:27 2013
From: max at maxmore.com (Max More)
Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2013 10:37:27 -0700
Subject: [ExI] list test
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armjNuYn6M6DVkrFFbJmMCwqR1AWCzb8g+Bq+03Q=_hGtBw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20130710152210.GW24217@leitl.org> <op.w0srkebl0wog37@nikita>
 <CAL_armhRmV2N4t03bdOhzAs6dMbNKoWthZAsCnPy6fxuPYd5rA@mail.gmail.com>
 <51F4BB57.6010408@aleph.se>
 <CAL_armjNuYn6M6DVkrFFbJmMCwqR1AWCzb8g+Bq+03Q=_hGtBw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJX-7wWd24JFgzjhrY3+NRgQ2Qeb0m=Th-Da4JXjB9GU=0tZrg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jul 28, 2013 at 1:45 AM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:

>
> Yes, but.......
>
> In this case the extropy.org registration expired on 21 July 2013
> causing extropy.org and their lists to go dead.
>
> The registration was renewed on 27 July 2013 and life restarted.
>

Sorry about that, everyone. I didn't realize it would affect the lists, or
I would have hustled more to solve the problem before expiration. I tried
to renew at Network Solutions before the deadline, but found myself unable
to get them to accept payment. Not sure why, except the registration info
is very outdated (but that was true last time I renewed too). I was able to
pay on Saturday morning.

I have an inquiry in to Network Solutions about updating the info (which I
am unable to do). Perhaps I can solve that problem by merging accounts, but
I'm concerned that the extremely outdated extropy.org info will supplant
the current info for my other domains. The workings of Network Solutions
are not pellucid to me.

--Max


-- 
Max More, PhD
Strategic Philosopher
Co-editor, *The Transhumanist Reader*
http://www.amazon.com/Transhumanist-Reader-Contemporary-Technology-Philosophy/dp/1118334310/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1372225570&sr=1-1&keywords=the+transhumanist+reader
President & CEO, Alcor Life Extension Foundation
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From atymes at gmail.com  Sun Jul 28 18:37:20 2013
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2013 11:37:20 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Story part 2 yet again.
In-Reply-To: <51ECCD2C.2020203@verizon.net>
References: <51ECCD2C.2020203@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNT1xshK_cDMEZmoc_G4TRbZRsgGYEzk5i76qxwn3BHc3Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jul 21, 2013 at 11:11 PM, Alan Grimes <ALONZOTG at verizon.net> wrote:

> # How will VR environments be provisioned? How much work will be required
> of the user to create a VR? Where would the terminally incompetent get
> their VRs?
>

That last forms the baseline.  So line as there are VRs for even the
terminally incompetent, the more competent can afford to be lazy - and,
well, human nature tends toward laziness here.  Someone goes to the effort
of making a good, or at least acceptable, standard VR interface that anyone
can use, and many people use it.

Of course, users can put in as much work as they want.  Note the amount of
effort that goes into building Minecraft worlds - even those that are never
seen by more than a few.  (Although, fame to those who both make good
product and share it widely; some small fortune to those who figure out how
to turn a profit without turning away most of their audience.)


> # How large of a VR would a user be allowed to build?
>

That strongly depends on who's setting the limits - and why.  It may well
be that there are no limits, beyond how much hardware a user can gather;
that would be the case if today's laws were applied.


> # What limitations on creating sentient characters to populate the VR?
> (this is obviously deeply problematic on many fronts).
>

Again, who's setting the limits, and what's their agenda?  Again, if
today's laws were applied, there would be no limits.  Some may soon come
into effect once this happens, depending on how the legislators come to
learn of this...or it may be viewed as a modern form of slavery without the
drawbacks, if the sentient characters can simply be programmed for loyalty
and slave mentalities (or, more importantly, if the legislators believe
this to be the case).


> # What rights/limitations would a user have in a public VR?
>

Depends entirely on who's paying for it, and their relationship to the
user.  Most likely it'd be akin to the rights/limitations people have on
any public property, including a limitation against trashing the place
(without special permit, which usually involves working for or with the
government).


> # Would the user be guaranteed unalienable rights to exist and communicate
> in public VRs?
>

Depends on the local government, and whether they give similar rights in
meatspace.


> # Would private VR spaces be considered a natural right?
>

Probably not, any more than homes are considered natural rights.  They're
property, and it's a good thing if most people have one, but this is
distinct from a right to have one.  (Though it helps that making an eyesore
out of one's private VR does not impact other peoples' private VRs.)


> # What limitations would there be on how a user manafests himself in a
> public VR environment?
>

Again, depends entirely on who's paying for it, and their relationship to
the user.  "Public VR" can be considered to be "VR that is owned and
operated by the government, which gives most people certain access rights",
similar to public roads today.


> # What limitations would a user have on the type of avatar that could be
> attached to his emulated humanoid nervous system?
>

Same answer.


> # Is there any alternative to the following mode of self modification
> beyond basic tuning parameters:   --> You load a copy of yourself from a
> backup made a few moments ago, modify it, attempt to run it, if it seems to
> work, you then delete yourself.
>

Yes.  Many alternatives:

* You modify your currently running copy on the fly, without backup, much
like how self modification works today.  (More dangerous?  Yes.  Convenient
and therefore used widely anyway?  Probably.  Safe enough for small tweaks,
so that "more dangerous" rarely applies in practice?  Likely.  Does away
with the "there are briefly two yous" issue that some people might want to
deal with?  Yes.  And "this is similar to how people have done it for a
long time" is a compelling factor for many people.  Of course, one can also
copy a modification that someone else tested on someone else, thus trusting
that the modification is probably safe for yourself too.)

* You run several such modifications at once.

* You don't delete yourself, essentially forking for each modification.

* You run altered self in a simplified, sped up sim (sped up because of the
simplifications) and thereby evaluate long-term progress quickly.

Are those enough?

*** The current dominant theme, that of a heliocentric cloud of
> computronium bricks seems to imply a central authority that, at the very
> least, dictates communications protocols and orbital configurations.
>

Unless the protocols emerge by consensus, for lack of said authority (much
like how "international law" is not "what the single superpower  - USA -
wants", but "what enough of the major countries of the world agree on"),
and orbital configurations likewise (though likely recognizing orbitals
already claimed in practice).


> # What rights would the least privileged user to access base reality?
>

The least privileged users might access base reality and nothing else.
This is a common plot: the elites turn their attention to spaces only they
are aware of, and ignore the portion of reality that is the entire reality
for commoners.  VR vs. base reality is one expression of this, as is a
medieval tale of peasants whose only exposure to war is when knights come
through, demanding food and shelter, until the lords on both sides - who
had only thought to defeat one another - suddenly have their "civilized"
war interrupted by a peasant revolt.


> *** Assume that the overwhelming majority of the population was
> force-uploaded and re-answer the previous question.
>

It changes depending on two things:

* What noble aspirations the uploaders had when doing the force-uploading
and setting things up.

* What that grinds down to, in day-to-day practice after a sufficiently
long period of time.

Generally, why do the uploaders even care to run most people?  Access to
base reality likely costs at least minimal resources - whose, and is this a
large enough amount that anyone cares?


> # Are there any problems with the following scenario:   You detect a
> problem that will inevitably cause a cascade failure across the entire
> network but since you are on the ignore list of everyone connected with the
> central authority you can't even report your bug. The people in the central
> authority have been running human emulated brain patterns for subjective
> thousands of years and have become senile (due to the exhaustion of
> potential synapses between their neurons), and complacent and refuse to
> even acknowledge the possibility of such a problem... So basically everyone
> trapped in this nightmare tried to go around the simulator with a
> count-down clock to when everything would collapse hovering over their
> heads, trying to warn the few who could actually do something about it,
> until the clock reached zero and everything just stopped.
>

Yes.  If many people are convinced of imminent demise, and the powers that
be can not be convinced to help - perhaps some people would be content to
give passive warnings as you describe, but someone is going to try to take
more action than that.

Security crackers exist.  Exploits and social engineering exist.   If the
people in the central authority are indeed senile, that makes it more
likely that these things will develop, in time for those aware of the
problem to attempt a fix.  (Just last May, I was in a LARP about
essentially this very scenario.)

The bigger problem is assuming that everyone will act in the same way -
especially, in a way they have reason to believe will be utterly
ineffective (even if it does require little effort).  Over a large enough
population with the same concern, a wide variety of solutions will be
attempted.
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From anders at aleph.se  Sun Jul 28 19:23:46 2013
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2013 21:23:46 +0200
Subject: [ExI] a complicated patient is the bee
In-Reply-To: <003601ce8bab$ab793940$026babc0$@rainier66.com>
References: <003601ce8bab$ab793940$026babc0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <51F56FC2.30806@aleph.se>

On 2013-07-28 18:01, spike wrote:
> The honeybee is the bug equivalent of the complicated patient.  Too many
> inputs, some of them unknown, the collective effect clearly harmful and
> possibly fatal to both the patient and her dependents.

Moving this to the meta-level (as we philosophers always do), this seems 
to be the hallmark of the Big Problems we are facing. A while ago I 
wrote about the apparent similarity between the obesity epidemic and the 
possible stagnation problem ( 
http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/2013-March/076102.html ) 
- both are very nonlinear, complex systems with tangled causality, yet 
might show coherent undesirable trends. Same thing might be happening in 
a lot of domains like finance, nuclear arms-races and disarmament, or 
(the classic) the Middle East.

Complex problems where there are many opposing and supporting adaptive 
feedback loops, of varying level of visibility and understanding, and 
where the overall causal structure is unknown and perhaps not knowable. 
Some of them are even more vexed, in that it is not clear what 
constitutes a solution state (consider the Middle East).

This is an interesting domain... especially since I am planning to work 
a bit on questions of systemic risk this autumn. Most systemic risks are 
far nicer: contagion of bad stuff from one company/subgrid/ecosystem to 
the next, instability in collective modes, and so on. They are due to 
densely interconnected systems, but the nodes are all more or less of 
the same kind: the mess happens because a global instability is reached, 
but the causal structure of the disaster is fairly straightforward. Not 
so in the complicated patient risks.

Hmm... Looking at it from an abstract perspective, what we have here is 
a partially observable nonlinear system with a lot of internal 
complexity. The reason we have a Problem is that some of the state 
variables or functions of them move in a bad direction. We can send 
various inputs to it, including changing some rules for some internal 
components. In the case of some chaotic systems there are methods to 
bring them under control, exploiting the fact that unstable periodic 
orbits are dense in strange attractors, but it seems that in this case 
we are typically not looking at anything with a strange attractor, but 
rather a big unwanted trend. It seems that there are lots of methods in 
system identification, operations analysis and other domains that might 
give interesting insights. But the core problem seems to be that we only 
get a very limited time series of trending data rather than a bigger 
exploration of their state space.


-- 
Anders Sandberg
Future of Humanity Institute
Oxford University


From bbenzai at yahoo.com  Sun Jul 28 21:27:34 2013
From: bbenzai at yahoo.com (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2013 14:27:34 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] list test
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1375012802.11045.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.1.1375012802.11045.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <1375046854.12059.YahooMailNeo@web165002.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

?"spike" <spike at rainier66.com> observed:


> I'll be back home tomorrow. ... no internet, no cell phone,
> nothing.? It was hell.

Now that's an interesting observation.

For some people, being 'off grid' is an ordeal, for others, it's necessary to recharge their batteries, or restore their sanity.? I know, because I'm one of them.

I'm wondering what that means for the oft-quoted problem of accelerated intelligences needing to be connected at all times, leading to the 'no expansion' scenario.

I'm thinking there are probably personality types that would relish the prospect of a few hundred years of peace and quiet between bursts of contact with their parent civilisation.? Or even being cast adrift from it permanently.? Maybe the answer to the Fermi Paradox is that yes, there are interstellar explorers, but they're all hermit types.

Ben Zaiboc




From pharos at gmail.com  Sun Jul 28 22:24:38 2013
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2013 23:24:38 +0100
Subject: [ExI] list test
In-Reply-To: <1375046854.12059.YahooMailNeo@web165002.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.1.1375012802.11045.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <1375046854.12059.YahooMailNeo@web165002.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armgc1XuUEudapmhLbu9kdQ5yC0K9FYLOH0XCoywoobo=zA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jul 28, 2013 at 10:27 PM, Ben Zaiboc wrote:
>  "spike" <spike at rainier66.com> observed:
>> I'll be back home tomorrow. ... no internet, no cell phone, nothing.  It was hell.
>
> Now that's an interesting observation.
> For some people, being 'off grid' is an ordeal, for others, it's necessary to recharge their batteries,
> or restore their sanity.  I know, because I'm one of them.
>

And, vice versa, it was hell for everyone else while spike was away.  ;)

>
> I'm wondering what that means for the oft-quoted problem of accelerated intelligences needing
> to be connected at all times, leading to the 'no expansion' scenario.
>
> I'm thinking there are probably personality types that would relish the prospect of a few hundred
> years of peace and quiet between bursts of contact with their parent civilisation.
> Or even being cast adrift from it permanently.  Maybe the answer to the Fermi Paradox is
> that yes, there are interstellar explorers, but they're all hermit types.
>
>

So the galactic explorers are the ones that nobody likes?  :)
The aliens they meet probably won't like them much either.

I think the point of the AI needing to be connected at all times is
really that the idea of 'individuals' will change drastically. It will
be as though you were a sort of distributed intelligence, with parts
of your intelligence / personality off doing their own thing and
reassembling as required. Even ordinary humans change a bit to suit
their company and environment. I'm pretty different when I'm at an
all-night rave with the Oxytocin flowing compared to giving a lecture
about financial derivatives. (Hypothetical examples!).


BillK


From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Jul 29 03:12:24 2013
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike)
Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2013 20:12:24 -0700
Subject: [ExI] list test
In-Reply-To: <CAJX-7wWd24JFgzjhrY3+NRgQ2Qeb0m=Th-Da4JXjB9GU=0tZrg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20130710152210.GW24217@leitl.org> <op.w0srkebl0wog37@nikita>
 <CAL_armhRmV2N4t03bdOhzAs6dMbNKoWthZAsCnPy6fxuPYd5rA@mail.gmail.com>
 <51F4BB57.6010408@aleph.se>
 <CAL_armjNuYn6M6DVkrFFbJmMCwqR1AWCzb8g+Bq+03Q=_hGtBw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJX-7wWd24JFgzjhrY3+NRgQ2Qeb0m=Th-Da4JXjB9GU=0tZrg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00de01ce8c09$72fb01d0$58f10570$@rainier66.com>

 

From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Max More
Sent: Sunday, July 28, 2013 10:37 AM
To: ExI chat list
Subject: Re: [ExI] list test

 

 

>.I tried to renew at Network Solutions before the deadline, but found
myself unable to get them to accept payment. Not sure why, except the
registration info is very outdated (but that was true last time I renewed
too). I was able to pay on Saturday morning. Max

 

 

 

So why is Max stuck with the bill for this?  Do we have a place to toss in
donations to pay for the domain?  I'll kick in a few bucks to maintain the
list which has provided me with such entertainment for so many years.

 

spike

 

 

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From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Jul 29 04:38:49 2013
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike)
Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2013 21:38:49 -0700
Subject: [ExI] sanity and connectedness, was:  RE:  list test
Message-ID: <00ef01ce8c15$85e0b0e0$91a212a0$@rainier66.com>

 

>... On Behalf Of BillK
Subject: Re: [ExI] list test

 

On Sun, Jul 28, 2013 at 10:27 PM, Ben Zaiboc wrote:

>  "spike" < <mailto:spike at rainier66.com> spike at rainier66.com> observed:

>>>... I'll be back home tomorrow. ... no internet, no cell phone, nothing.
It was hell.

> 

>>... Now that's an interesting observation.

> For some people, being 'off grid' is an ordeal, for others, it's 

> necessary to recharge their batteries, or restore their sanity.  I know,
because I'm one of them... Ben

> 

 

>...And, vice versa, it was hell for everyone else while spike was away.  ;)
BillK

 

BillK you are too kind, sir.  Ben, being internetless was for me a hellish
reminder of how it was in the old days, before about 1995, when we didn't
have the web, or at least I didn't.  We went around not knowing stuff.  I
don't like not knowing stuff.  

 

My camping trip did give me a chance to deeply ponder what I really want in
life.  I want to have some kind of system with voice recognition and image
recognition, so that when I see some unfamiliar beast for instance, it could
figure out the species and send me to web pages describing the unique
characteristics of that beast.

 

Consider for instance this magnificent beauty:

 

Mt. Rainier Tiger Beetle - Cicindela depressula

 

I have been hiking for years up at Mount Rainier, and had never seen one of
these that I recall.  The photo above is about 2x actual size.  I spent some
time observing them, after having the good fortune of showing up apparently
right after they hatched.  I yearned to know more about these beasts, while
I was still there on site to observe.  Later I found out it is likely a
Cicindela depressula.  Kewall!

 

Thanks to Nomadofthehills for the photo.  Hers is better than any of the
dozens I took.

 

Years ago, there was an advertisement, I don't even recall where I saw it or
when.  There is no dialog at all.  A guy is in the woods sitting on a log.
Suddenly a snake slithers up his pants.  In sheer panic, he taps in a
description of the snake.  A web page comes up, identifying the species.  It
says: non-poisonous.  He gets a look of relief.  Then it says:  constrictor.
He gets a look of panic again.  Then gets an ambiguous look of: Hmmmm, this
might work out OK for both of us.

 

Hilarious, memorable advertising, brilliant!

 

I want that, only I want Google Glass (or equivalent) to identify the beast
and do some kind of image recognition and find the site, then tell me the
information in my ear so my eyes are free to observe and my hands are free
to manage the camera.  I want to have something analogous to a really
well-informed entomology professor with me at all times, only better: I want
one who can hike as well as I can, and see as well as I can, but be a
thousand times smarter about bugs.  That's all I really want.  When we get
that, it will be the next step, equivalent to how it was when we first got
the web.  Now you computer jockeys and internet hipsters, how do I get that?

 

spike

 

 

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From atymes at gmail.com  Mon Jul 29 05:27:37 2013
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2013 22:27:37 -0700
Subject: [ExI] sanity and connectedness, was: RE: list test
In-Reply-To: <00ef01ce8c15$85e0b0e0$91a212a0$@rainier66.com>
References: <00ef01ce8c15$85e0b0e0$91a212a0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNT1nZ-EPrZ9KAKhFK83oZZPeanEoiQZMLHNaq7q2qH+9w@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jul 28, 2013 at 9:38 PM, spike <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:

> I want that, only I want Google Glass (or equivalent) to identify the
> beast and do some kind of image recognition and find the site, then tell me
> the information in my ear so my eyes are free to observe and my hands are
> free to manage the camera.  I want to have something analogous to a really
> well-informed entomology professor with me at all times, only better: I
> want one who can hike as well as I can, and see as well as I can, but be a
> thousand times smarter about bugs.  That?s all I really want.  When we get
> that, it will be the next step, equivalent to how it was when we first got
> the web.  Now you computer jockeys and internet hipsters, how do I get that?
>

First get Google Glass or equivalent.

After that, there seem to be templates for image recognition apps.  But
you'll need data.  Get a suitably large training set of beast shots with
which to identify.  Textbook shots might not suffice, since they'll be
compared to the shots you'll actually take in the field.

And, well, that should keep you busy for a while.  ;)
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From anders at aleph.se  Mon Jul 29 07:52:41 2013
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2013 09:52:41 +0200
Subject: [ExI] sanity and connectedness, was:  RE:  list test
In-Reply-To: <00ef01ce8c15$85e0b0e0$91a212a0$@rainier66.com>
References: <00ef01ce8c15$85e0b0e0$91a212a0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <51F61F49.7090104@aleph.se>

On 2013-07-29 06:38, spike wrote:
>
> Consider for instance this magnificent beauty:
>
> Mt. Rainier Tiger Beetle - Cicindela depressula
>
> I have been hiking for years up at Mount Rainier, and had never seen 
> one of these that I recall.  The photo above is about 2x actual size.  
> I spent some time observing them, after having the good fortune of 
> showing up apparently right after they hatched.  I yearned to know 
> more about these beasts, while I was still there on site to observe.  
> Later I found out it is likely a Cicindela depressula.  Kewall!
>

Indeed. The dispirited tiger beetle! (the name apparently has to do with 
the "broken elbow" in the patterning, rather than any mood in the 
beetle) I know the problem of photographing tiger beetles - they refuse 
to sit still for a picture.

An automatic species detector would be awesome. But it is tricky to get 
the species right. I can imagine software recognizing the picture above 
as "a cincidelid beetle", and likely homing in on a few likely species 
based on color and location. But to get to Cicindela depressula you need 
to check the length of the labrum and how the eybrow bristles look - and 
that requires a facial closeup. Many species are even worse, you need to 
dissect them to figure out what they are. So the species detector should 
have a micro-DNA sample device too, in order to use DNA barcodes.

There are a few projects going in this direction:
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs00371-013-0782-8
http://www.ppgia.pucpr.br/~alekoe/Papers/ISM2011-Koerich.pdf 
<http://www.ppgia.pucpr.br/%7Ealekoe/Papers/ISM2011-Koerich.pdf>
http://www.cs.waikato.ac.nz/~ml/publications/2006/MayoSGAI_2006.pdf 
<http://www.cs.waikato.ac.nz/%7Eml/publications/2006/MayoSGAI_2006.pdf>
https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/articleDetails.jsp?arnumber=6481468&sortType%3Dasc_p_Sequence%26filter%3DAND(p_IS_Number%3A4358066) 
<https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/articleDetails.jsp?arnumber=6481468&sortType%3Dasc_p_Sequence%26filter%3DAND%28p_IS_Number%3A4358066%29>
http://leafsnap.com/

It seems to me that sensor fusion is the way to go: use pictures, 
animations, recorded birdsong, whatever to help focus the search. One 
could use something like 
http://people.csail.mit.edu/torralba/tinyimages/ or 
http://googleresearch.blogspot.se/2013/06/fast-accurate-detection-of-100000.html 
to do an overall guess at what kind of critter it is, then apply local 
expert software to narrow things down. In many cases it will just tell 
you "some kind of cincidelid" or "little brown thing" due to lack of 
information, but I suspect it will be amazingly good under the right 
circumstances.

I think we will get the system eventually. And probably sooner than it 
looks.

-- 
Dr Anders Sandberg
Future of Humanity Institute
Oxford Martin School
Oxford University

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From pharos at gmail.com  Mon Jul 29 08:31:44 2013
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2013 09:31:44 +0100
Subject: [ExI] sanity and connectedness, was: RE: list test
In-Reply-To: <51F61F49.7090104@aleph.se>
References: <00ef01ce8c15$85e0b0e0$91a212a0$@rainier66.com>
 <51F61F49.7090104@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <CAL_armjX1u8SW3QfAKXfJvza3ezSjMCsmAKodTMQkzPtKDyhtw@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 8:52 AM, Anders Sandberg  wrote:
<snip>
> It seems to me that sensor fusion is the way to go: use pictures, animations, recorded birdsong,
> whatever to help focus the search. One could use something like
> http://people.csail.mit.edu/torralba/tinyimages/ or
> http://googleresearch.blogspot.se/2013/06/fast-accurate-detection-of-100000.html to do an overall
> guess at what kind of critter it is, then apply local expert software to narrow things down.
> In many cases it will just tell you "some kind of cincidelid" or "little brown thing" due to lack of
> information, but I suspect it will be amazingly good under the right circumstances.
>
> I think we will get the system eventually. And probably sooner than it looks.
>
>

Hmmm.  Agreed. And note that something similar will be available for
the human species as well.

Face recognition, linked database analyses, Twitter, Facebook, Forums,
public criminal records, genealogy, etc.
When someone wearing Google Glass looks at you, your past history will
be streaming through their screen.
When someone from the FBI or NSA looks at you, he will know what you
had for breakfast this morning.

The privacy enthusiasts are saying that 'off-grid' is the only answer.
Anything using the web will be public knowledge.

Vive le transparent society!

BillK


From anders at aleph.se  Mon Jul 29 09:23:29 2013
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2013 11:23:29 +0200
Subject: [ExI] sanity and connectedness, was: RE: list test
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armjX1u8SW3QfAKXfJvza3ezSjMCsmAKodTMQkzPtKDyhtw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <00ef01ce8c15$85e0b0e0$91a212a0$@rainier66.com>
 <51F61F49.7090104@aleph.se>
 <CAL_armjX1u8SW3QfAKXfJvza3ezSjMCsmAKodTMQkzPtKDyhtw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <51F63491.6010503@aleph.se>

On 2013-07-29 10:31, BillK wrote:
> Face recognition, linked database analyses, Twitter, Facebook, Forums, 
> public criminal records, genealogy, etc. When someone wearing Google 
> Glass looks at you, your past history will be streaming through their 
> screen. When someone from the FBI or NSA looks at you, he will know 
> what you had for breakfast this morning.

The real problem is disambiguation. Many people look like other people, 
many have names that are the same as others, and so on. For example, 
looking for my scientific publications tends to produce results jumbled 
up with other Anders Sandbergs (there are a few of us in academia) - and 
given my somewhat broad interests, it is not at all trivial to be sure 
whether those philosophy papers have anything to do with those 
neuroscience papers... or the theology paper. Clustering algorithms 
exist and work somewhat, but trying them on 7 billion people and X 
trillion subjects is going to be tough.

Whether this matters is the loss function. How bad is it if somebody 
thinks I am a different person? That I work on mechanics? That I am a 
celebrity? Or that I am a terrorist? Handling uncertain noisy data is 
tricky, and we need to learn how to do it as a society when we amplify 
*some* of our abilities. Automatic identification is going to get 
better, but automatic decision-making tends to be fairly rigid and 
brittle (unless at AI-complete levels).

Sanity is to have an open-ended, self-correcting system where stupid 
decisions - whether digital or human - can be detected and corrected.

-- 
Dr Anders Sandberg
Future of Humanity Institute
Oxford Martin School
Oxford University



From andymck35 at gmail.com  Sun Jul 28 21:29:48 2013
From: andymck35 at gmail.com (Andrew Mckee)
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2013 09:29:48 +1200
Subject: [ExI] list test
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armjNuYn6M6DVkrFFbJmMCwqR1AWCzb8g+Bq+03Q=_hGtBw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20130710152210.GW24217@leitl.org> <op.w0srkebl0wog37@nikita>
 <CAL_armhRmV2N4t03bdOhzAs6dMbNKoWthZAsCnPy6fxuPYd5rA@mail.gmail.com>
 <51F4BB57.6010408@aleph.se>
 <CAL_armjNuYn6M6DVkrFFbJmMCwqR1AWCzb8g+Bq+03Q=_hGtBw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <op.w0ybbyuy0wog37@nikita>

On Sun, 28 Jul 2013 20:45:54 +1200, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:

> In this case the extropy.org registration expired on 21 July 2013
> causing extropy.org and their lists to go dead.
>
> The registration was renewed on 27 July 2013 and life restarted.
>
> I am surprised how often this happens to internet companies, even big
> companies like Microsoft.
> Makes one think that there must be a better system just waiting to be
> implemented.

Well for a start I can't but help wonder why our emails are being shuffled  
around by their domain names rather than actual TCP/IP address's.

The system as it is, seems more like it's being geared to make someone a  
bundle of money for a name on the internet, well that and it gives someone  
a means of turning the internet off if they want to.

Bring on the encrypted peer to peer email services.



 


From eugen at leitl.org  Mon Jul 29 11:05:39 2013
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2013 13:05:39 +0200
Subject: [ExI] sanity and connectedness, was: RE: list test
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armjX1u8SW3QfAKXfJvza3ezSjMCsmAKodTMQkzPtKDyhtw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <00ef01ce8c15$85e0b0e0$91a212a0$@rainier66.com>
 <51F61F49.7090104@aleph.se>
 <CAL_armjX1u8SW3QfAKXfJvza3ezSjMCsmAKodTMQkzPtKDyhtw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20130729110539.GT29404@leitl.org>

On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 09:31:44AM +0100, BillK wrote:

> Face recognition, linked database analyses, Twitter, Facebook, Forums,
> public criminal records, genealogy, etc.

Always use a nym.

> When someone wearing Google Glass looks at you, your past history will
> be streaming through their screen.

Only if you've been careless.

> When someone from the FBI or NSA looks at you, he will know what you
> had for breakfast this morning.

I don't think so.
 
> The privacy enthusiasts are saying that 'off-grid' is the only answer.

The word you're looking for is a darknet.

> Anything using the web will be public knowledge.
> 
> Vive le transparent society!


From pharos at gmail.com  Mon Jul 29 11:36:10 2013
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2013 12:36:10 +0100
Subject: [ExI] sanity and connectedness, was: RE: list test
In-Reply-To: <20130729110539.GT29404@leitl.org>
References: <00ef01ce8c15$85e0b0e0$91a212a0$@rainier66.com>
 <51F61F49.7090104@aleph.se>
 <CAL_armjX1u8SW3QfAKXfJvza3ezSjMCsmAKodTMQkzPtKDyhtw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20130729110539.GT29404@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <CAL_armj3ZXkPz5=tX+FZKvZEUyGhEDiSH+=e+4Hot4T2eTk3SQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 12:05 PM, Eugen Leitl  wrote:
> Always use a nym.
> The word you're looking for is a darknet.
>

I doubt if it is as simple as that.

For the 99+% on Facebook and Twitter, they *want* to be known and recognized.

If a Google Glass user looks at you and almost no data appears, then
you become a very suspicious character, with all the disadvantages
that implies. So you now have to go to all the trouble of maintaining
a normal user profile, full of innocuous comments and events (but
still make it attractive and interesting). This is an ongoing task,
not a do once and forget about it task. So there is really no option
but to broadcast your real (but sanitized) personality.

Certainly, if you intend anything slightly naughty (that you wouldn't
want your mother or boss to know about) then use fake personalities,
peer-to-peer, and Tor. But you can't do much there. It is the same as
having big gaps in your CV. Blank spaces in your timeline indicate
things that you don't want to disclose.

In the world of nudity, wearing camouflage makes you *more* conspicuous.

BillK


From eugen at leitl.org  Mon Jul 29 12:36:36 2013
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2013 14:36:36 +0200
Subject: [ExI] [Server-sky] Server Sky transport energy comparison
Message-ID: <20130729123636.GU29404@leitl.org>

----- Forwarded message from Keith Lofstrom <keithl at kl-ic.com> -----

Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2013 11:23:51 -0700
From: Keith Lofstrom <keithl at kl-ic.com>
To: server-sky at server-sky.com
Subject: [Server-sky] Server Sky transport energy comparison
User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.2i
Reply-To: keithl at keithl.com

Launch costs a heck of a lot more per kilogram than ship/rail/truck,
but server-sky thinsats produce a heck of a lot more energy per
kilogram than a terrestrial solar panel.  The transport energy
payback time for a Chinese solar panel sent to the New Mexico
desert is 60 days, for a first generation thinsat is 22 days. 

Second generation ultralight thinsats, ballasted with harvested
space debris, may have transport energy payback times of less
than five days.  

See http://server-sky/Transport

Third generation thinsats, manufactured in space from lunar
materials (chips and rare materials still earth launched)
will be cheaper still, but my crystal ball is too cloudy
for usable estimates that far in the future.

Keith

-- 
Keith Lofstrom          keithl at keithl.com         Voice (503)-520-1993
_______________________________________________
Server-sky mailing list
Server-sky at lists.server-sky.com
http://lists.server-sky.com/mailman/listinfo/server-sky

----- End forwarded message -----
-- 
Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://ativel.com http://postbiota.org
AC894EC5: 38A5 5F46 A4FF 59B8 336B  47EE F46E 3489 AC89 4EC5


From anders at aleph.se  Mon Jul 29 12:40:07 2013
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2013 14:40:07 +0200
Subject: [ExI] sanity and connectedness, was: RE: list test
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armj3ZXkPz5=tX+FZKvZEUyGhEDiSH+=e+4Hot4T2eTk3SQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <00ef01ce8c15$85e0b0e0$91a212a0$@rainier66.com>
 <51F61F49.7090104@aleph.se>
 <CAL_armjX1u8SW3QfAKXfJvza3ezSjMCsmAKodTMQkzPtKDyhtw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20130729110539.GT29404@leitl.org>
 <CAL_armj3ZXkPz5=tX+FZKvZEUyGhEDiSH+=e+4Hot4T2eTk3SQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <51F662A7.4070002@aleph.se>

On 2013-07-29 13:36, BillK wrote:
> If a Google Glass user looks at you and almost no data appears, then
> you become a very suspicious character, with all the disadvantages
> that implies.

Interesting analogy: apparently in the US not having many credit checks 
logged is almost as bad for loan applications as having a lot of them. 
Which of course opens the question of open the system is for people 
coming from abroad (I suspect the answer is that the high variance of 
Americans anyway makes the system fairly soft).

> So you now have to go to all the trouble of maintaining
> a normal user profile, full of innocuous comments and events (but
> still make it attractive and interesting). This is an ongoing task,
> not a do once and forget about it task. So there is really no option
> but to broadcast your real (but sanitized) personality.

Actually, wouldn't that be an interesting application to write? 
Something that generates surface plausible web traces?

I have been thinking of having a little script reading web pages and 
generating a random clickstream, including searches based on random 
words picked up on earlier pages. No doubt it would soon develop its own 
"personality" due to what it reads (Eherenfest's urn model?) One might 
even have a few separate such scripts producing a mixed activity trace.

Harder would be to script a social networking bot. But there seem to be 
plenty of spambots around, and I can imagine hiring mechanical turks to 
add some pattern recognition.

The point is, these profiles would be boring. Which is perfect: you do 
not want people to look closely, just jump to the cool person next to you.

> In the world of nudity, wearing camouflage makes you *more* conspicuous.

But nobody looks twice at the not-handsome person. Or the one in a 
nude-colored clothes.


-- 
Anders Sandberg
Future of Humanity Institute
Oxford University


From eugen at leitl.org  Mon Jul 29 12:47:38 2013
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2013 14:47:38 +0200
Subject: [ExI] sanity and connectedness, was: RE: list test
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armj3ZXkPz5=tX+FZKvZEUyGhEDiSH+=e+4Hot4T2eTk3SQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <00ef01ce8c15$85e0b0e0$91a212a0$@rainier66.com>
 <51F61F49.7090104@aleph.se>
 <CAL_armjX1u8SW3QfAKXfJvza3ezSjMCsmAKodTMQkzPtKDyhtw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20130729110539.GT29404@leitl.org>
 <CAL_armj3ZXkPz5=tX+FZKvZEUyGhEDiSH+=e+4Hot4T2eTk3SQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20130729124738.GV29404@leitl.org>

On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 12:36:10PM +0100, BillK wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 12:05 PM, Eugen Leitl  wrote:
> > Always use a nym.
> > The word you're looking for is a darknet.
> >
> 
> I doubt if it is as simple as that.
> 
> For the 99+% on Facebook and Twitter, they *want* to be known and recognized.

It doesn't matter what they want, only what they get.

By failing to build/vote for privacy-protecting platforms
*and* in failing to engage into privacy-preserving behaviour
online they've chosen their destiny, and mostly without even
realizing it. Reality is cruel that way.
 
> If a Google Glass user looks at you and almost no data appears, then
> you become a very suspicious character, with all the disadvantages
> that implies. So you now have to go to all the trouble of maintaining

Oooh, I'm shaking in my combat boots.

> a normal user profile, full of innocuous comments and events (but
> still make it attractive and interesting). This is an ongoing task,

Sorry, that doesn't work.

> not a do once and forget about it task. So there is really no option
> but to broadcast your real (but sanitized) personality.

Show me your methods, and I'll show you how they don't work.
 
> Certainly, if you intend anything slightly naughty (that you wouldn't

Does being a terrorist qualify?

> want your mother or boss to know about) then use fake personalities,
> peer-to-peer, and Tor. But you can't do much there. It is the same as

You couldn't be any farther from the truth. I've been to Tor Hack Day
this Friday, and I'm very, very impressed. If you want to make a difference,
join the Light Side.

> having big gaps in your CV. Blank spaces in your timeline indicate
> things that you don't want to disclose.
> 
> In the world of nudity, wearing camouflage makes you *more* conspicuous.

I don't mind. My tinfoil hat is bullet-proof.


From anders at aleph.se  Mon Jul 29 12:50:43 2013
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2013 14:50:43 +0200
Subject: [ExI] list test
In-Reply-To: <51F4BB57.6010408@aleph.se>
References: <20130710152210.GW24217@leitl.org> <op.w0srkebl0wog37@nikita>
 <CAL_armhRmV2N4t03bdOhzAs6dMbNKoWthZAsCnPy6fxuPYd5rA@mail.gmail.com>
 <51F4BB57.6010408@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <51F66523.2010104@aleph.se>

On 2013-07-28 08:33, Anders Sandberg wrote:
> Email lists need a critical mass: if you see an email you might respond
> with some probability p, but without email you are unlikely to remember
> the list (post probability q << p). So the number of posts next day from
> N people will be
> posts = N[p(1-(1-p)^N) + q(1-p)^N]

A more full writeup, now with Markov chains, can be found at
http://www.aleph.se/andart/archives/2013/07/summer_silence.html


-- 
Anders Sandberg
Future of Humanity Institute
Oxford University


From will.yager at gmail.com  Mon Jul 29 05:36:43 2013
From: will.yager at gmail.com (William Yager)
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2013 00:36:43 -0500
Subject: [ExI] sanity and connectedness, was: RE: list test
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNT1nZ-EPrZ9KAKhFK83oZZPeanEoiQZMLHNaq7q2qH+9w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <00ef01ce8c15$85e0b0e0$91a212a0$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNT1nZ-EPrZ9KAKhFK83oZZPeanEoiQZMLHNaq7q2qH+9w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <F6A0D68B-992B-464C-AD5D-7C150427DD9F@gmail.com>


On Jul 29, 2013, at 12:27 AM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sun, Jul 28, 2013 at 9:38 PM, spike <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:
> I want that, only I want Google Glass (or equivalent) to identify the beast and do some kind of image recognition and find the site, then tell me the information in my ear so my eyes are free to observe and my hands are free to manage the camera.  I want to have something analogous to a really well-informed entomology professor with me at all times, only better: I want one who can hike as well as I can, and see as well as I can, but be a thousand times smarter about bugs.  That?s all I really want.  When we get that, it will be the next step, equivalent to how it was when we first got the web.  Now you computer jockeys and internet hipsters, how do I get that?
> 
> 
> First get Google Glass or equivalent.
> 
> After that, there seem to be templates for image recognition apps.  But you'll need data.  Get a suitably large training set of beast shots with which to identify.  Textbook shots might not suffice, since they'll be compared to the shots you'll actually take in the field. 
> 
> And, well, that should keep you busy for a while.  ;)
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


Haar Cascades for various critters? It'll be quite the day when we can run that kind of software on our eyeglasses.
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From mbb386 at main.nc.us  Mon Jul 29 14:46:57 2013
From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB)
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2013 10:46:57 -0400
Subject: [ExI] list test
In-Reply-To: <51F66523.2010104@aleph.se>
References: <20130710152210.GW24217@leitl.org> <op.w0srkebl0wog37@nikita>
 <CAL_armhRmV2N4t03bdOhzAs6dMbNKoWthZAsCnPy6fxuPYd5rA@mail.gmail.com>
 <51F4BB57.6010408@aleph.se> <51F66523.2010104@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <7a6aa49e89b914fea95497bbfc58482a.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>



> On 2013-07-28 08:33, Anders Sandberg wrote:

> A more full writeup, now with Markov chains, can be found
> at
> http://www.aleph.se/andart/archives/2013/07/summer_silence.html
>

" On large forums that have gone quiet the problem is more
likely that few want to say anything. That requires other
methods. "

So, Anders, what other methods do you suggest? I moderate
a couple forums (fori?) that have gone quiet.  And IMHO
it's more than summertime quiet.

Regards,
MB



From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Jul 29 14:35:31 2013
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike)
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2013 07:35:31 -0700
Subject: [ExI] sanity and connectedness, was:  RE:  list test
In-Reply-To: <51F61F49.7090104@aleph.se>
References: <00ef01ce8c15$85e0b0e0$91a212a0$@rainier66.com>
 <51F61F49.7090104@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <017801ce8c68$e4151f40$ac3f5dc0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

>. On Behalf Of Anders Sandberg
.
Subject: Re: [ExI] sanity and connectedness, was: RE: list test

 

On 2013-07-29 06:38, spike wrote:

 Consider for instance this magnificent beauty.

 .  I yearned to know more about these beasts, while I was still there on
site to observe.  Later I found out it is likely a Cicindela depressula.
Kewall!


>.Indeed. The dispirited tiger beetle! (the name apparently has to do with
the "broken elbow" in the patterning, rather than any mood in the beetle) I
know the problem of photographing tiger beetles - they refuse to sit still
for a picture.

 

 

Anders, you made my point perfectly.  Having you on ExI means we all get the
benefit of your accumulated wisdom, but only after we get home.  I want my
own portable Anders to carry along always, without having to actually feed
you and give you a place to sleep.  That could get expensive.  Especially if
sushi is involved, oy.  {8^D

 

If Google Glass works as well as I am hoping it does, we might be able to
create some kind of pooled knowledge base including a wide variety of
hipsters, such that it would allow a prole to operate hundreds of different
computer operating systems for instance, or learn what to do if someone is
sick, or if one's Detroit is making some new noise, or allowing one to
identify and learn about some unfamiliar beast, or if one has the
appropriate plumbing to go into the women's locker room at the local
university or. wait, scratch that last one, too many privacy Puritans will
jump all over that one.  OK where was I?  A prole sees a wonderful
unfamiliar beast, or a rare car model, or a berry that might be edible, or a
mushroom, or one is in the mood for sushi, or one is in an unfamiliar town
and wants to know where there is fun to be found, or such as that.

 

Regarding Anders' observation of photographing tiger beetles, it took me ten
minutes to get even one decent picture.  They dart and skitter about, and
fly away at the slightest provocation.  I didn't have the right lens to get
a good photo from more than a couple meters, and they generally wouldn't
have it.  I didn't have a net either.  Next time I shall be better prepared.
I want a Bluetooth-enabled zoomer, such that I can get a reasonable image at
four meters, then send the info to a 4G enabled device and send it to my
super-interconnected hipster group.

 

It is astonishing that it has been twenty years since Gregory Stock
published Metaman, which described increased interconnectedness resulting in
the evolution of a human superorganism.  Dr. Stock was in town a few months
ago at a transhumanist schmooze up at Stanford.  We had a most pleasant
lunch, as we discussed how well that book as aged, with the basic
technologies needed for that superprole coming online now.  Sooo kewall is
this!

 

spike

 

 

 

 



An automatic species detector would be awesome. But it is tricky to get the
species right. I can imagine software recognizing the picture above as "a
cincidelid beetle", and likely homing in on a few likely species based on
color and location. But to get to Cicindela depressula you need to check the
length of the labrum and how the eybrow bristles look - and that requires a
facial closeup. Many species are even worse, you need to dissect them to
figure out what they are. So the species detector should have a micro-DNA
sample device too, in order to use DNA barcodes.

There are a few projects going in this direction:
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs00371-013-0782-8
http://www.ppgia.pucpr.br/~alekoe/Papers/ISM2011-Koerich.pdf
<http://www.ppgia.pucpr.br/%7Ealekoe/Papers/ISM2011-Koerich.pdf> 
http://www.cs.waikato.ac.nz/~ml/publications/2006/MayoSGAI_2006.pdf
<http://www.cs.waikato.ac.nz/%7Eml/publications/2006/MayoSGAI_2006.pdf> 
https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/articleDetails.jsp?arnumber=6481468
<https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/articleDetails.jsp?arnumber=6481468&sortTyp
e%3Dasc_p_Sequence%26filter%3DAND%28p_IS_Number%3A4358066%29>
&sortType%3Dasc_p_Sequence%26filter%3DAND(p_IS_Number%3A4358066)
http://leafsnap.com/

It seems to me that sensor fusion is the way to go: use pictures,
animations, recorded birdsong, whatever to help focus the search. One could
use something like http://people.csail.mit.edu/torralba/tinyimages/ or
http://googleresearch.blogspot.se/2013/06/fast-accurate-detection-of-100000.
html to do an overall guess at what kind of critter it is, then apply local
expert software to narrow things down. In many cases it will just tell you
"some kind of cincidelid" or "little brown thing" due to lack of
information, but I suspect it will be amazingly good under the right
circumstances. 

I think we will get the system eventually. And probably sooner than it
looks. 



-- 
Dr Anders Sandberg
Future of Humanity Institute
Oxford Martin School
Oxford University
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From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Jul 29 14:43:13 2013
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike)
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2013 07:43:13 -0700
Subject: [ExI] sanity and connectedness, was: RE: list test
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armjX1u8SW3QfAKXfJvza3ezSjMCsmAKodTMQkzPtKDyhtw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <00ef01ce8c15$85e0b0e0$91a212a0$@rainier66.com>
 <51F61F49.7090104@aleph.se>
 <CAL_armjX1u8SW3QfAKXfJvza3ezSjMCsmAKodTMQkzPtKDyhtw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <017d01ce8c69$f519b340$df4d19c0$@rainier66.com>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of BillK
Sent: Monday, July 29, 2013 1:32 AM
To: ExI chat list
Subject: Re: [ExI] sanity and connectedness, was: RE: list test

On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 8:52 AM, Anders Sandberg  wrote:
<snip>
> >... I think we will get the system eventually. And probably sooner than
it looks.
>
>

>...Hmmm.  Agreed. And note that something similar will be available for the
human species as well.

>...Face recognition, linked database analyses, Twitter, Facebook, Forums,
public criminal records, genealogy, etc.
When someone wearing Google Glass looks at you, your past history will be
streaming through their screen...
Vive le transparent society!  BillK
_______________________________________________

If you lads have not read Orwell's 1984, get it, read it, at least the
Cliff's Notes version.  It's important.

spike



From bbenzai at yahoo.com  Mon Jul 29 14:43:35 2013
From: bbenzai at yahoo.com (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2013 07:43:35 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] sanity and connectedness
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1375099202.9681.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.1.1375099202.9681.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <1375109015.10519.YahooMailNeo@web165006.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:


> If a Google Glass user looks at you and almost no data appears, then
> you become a very suspicious character, with all the disadvantages
> that implies.

So if you're not a member of the chattering classes, you're automatically a suspicious character?? There are many more people without a FaceBook / Twitter / Google / whatever account than not.? What about the poor old plain boring people?? Are they suspicious?

Actually, I can see a market opportunity here.? Services to generate 'typical banality' for you on such platforms, just to avoid standing out from the crowd and attracting the attention of Undesirable Parties.? Of course you'd have to hide the fact that you were using such a service.? Unless it became fashionable to use them.? Then /everyone/ would have plausible deniability.? A bit like the strategy favoured by that person who sometimes masquerades as Spike }:DD




From lubkin at unreasonable.com  Mon Jul 29 15:07:39 2013
From: lubkin at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin)
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2013 11:07:39 -0400
Subject: [ExI] sanity and connectedness, was:  RE:  list test
In-Reply-To: <00ef01ce8c15$85e0b0e0$91a212a0$@rainier66.com>
References: <00ef01ce8c15$85e0b0e0$91a212a0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <201307291534.r6TFXcI7020723@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

Spike wrote:

>I want that, only I want Google Glass (or 
>equivalent) to identify the beast and do some 
>kind of image recognition and find the site, 
>then tell me the information in my ear so my 
>eyes are free to observe and my hands are free 
>to manage the camera.  I want to have something 
>analogous to a really well-informed entomology 
>professor with me at all times, only better: I 
>want one who can hike as well as I can, and see 
>as well as I can, but be a thousand times 
>smarter about bugs.  That?s all I really 
>want.  When we get that, it will be the next 
>step, equivalent to how it was when we first got 
>the web.  Now you computer jockeys and internet hipsters, how do I get that?

Easy. Ask me to introduce you to my sister, the 
entomologist. But don't get fresh; she's married 
to a combat veteran twice your size.

Now, I realize you have curiosities beyond 
entomology. But the solution generalizes. There 
are twelve more of us siblings, and our expertise has little overlap.

Being a little less silly for a moment, I think 
it's likely that any question you might have with 
a known answer can be answered by someone in your 
extended network. While I'm a big fan of recorded 
knowledge ? the sagging of my floors alone will 
confirm this ? and automated search, being able 
to tap a billion minds in near-realtime is pretty powerful.

I suppose at some point the distinction may disappear.


-- David.




From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Jul 29 15:24:31 2013
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike)
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2013 08:24:31 -0700
Subject: [ExI] lists going quiet, was:  RE:  list test
Message-ID: <019801ce8c6f$bbd9e180$338da480$@rainier66.com>

> On 2013-07-28 08:33, Anders Sandberg wrote:

>>..." On large forums that have gone quiet the problem is more
likely that few want to say anything. That requires other
methods. "

>...So, Anders, what other methods do you suggest? I moderate
a couple forums (fori?) that have gone quiet.  And IMHO
it's more than summertime quiet.  Regards,  MB

_______________________________________________

MB, are you taking into account that many of your hippest hipsters whose
commentary ignites the biggest online discussions are migrating over to
darknets?  

Anyone who is paying attention is watching what is happening in the USA: our
government has been archiving everything, sharing information with other
governments which do not have the same free speech rights as we do.  The fed
has used the IRS to target enemies and the hell of it is this: there is a
serious current debate on whether or not it is actually illegal to use the
IRS as a completely unaccountable form of government power.  You can't go to
prison for what you write, but you can get an IRS audit, and the IRS answers
to no one.  I study our constitution and find nothing in there which
actually says the government may not target political enemies in this
fashion.  We had a president in the 70s (Nixon) who did it, was caught,
resigned in disgrace.  40 years went by, a president is caught doing the
same thing, doesn't resign, calls it a phony scandal.

I never worried much about privacy.  The most illegal thing I have ever done
is to rip a tag off of a pillow I bought.  But now a prole becomes an enemy
of the state for holding the opinion that we are Taxed Enough Already.
Holding that opinion has become the new crime, and the government is
apparently legally able to target those who hold it.

I can see where people will quietly disappear from any forum that can be
read by any government.

spike



From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Jul 29 15:44:42 2013
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike)
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2013 08:44:42 -0700
Subject: [ExI] spanish train wreck
Message-ID: <01a201ce8c72$8bea6dc0$a3bf4940$@rainier66.com>


OK old news, but this morning is the first I have heard of the tragic train
wreck in Spain.  I don't understand: we have GPS, the track never changes.
How simple would it be to rig up trains with some kind of device which
doesn't allow a train to go faster than it can get around an upcoming curve?
That would be a simple controls algorithm, would automatically make it safe
from malicious train operators who wanted to use the device to slay
infidels, or train operators that are drunk, are texting, are racing, are
stupid, or a train operator who fell asleep at the switch or has some
medical condition caused her to slump forward over the controls and push it
to full steam ahead.  Sheesh, this slew 79 proles and injured many others,
when a fix is simple.

spike



From pharos at gmail.com  Mon Jul 29 16:16:15 2013
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2013 17:16:15 +0100
Subject: [ExI] spanish train wreck
In-Reply-To: <01a201ce8c72$8bea6dc0$a3bf4940$@rainier66.com>
References: <01a201ce8c72$8bea6dc0$a3bf4940$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armhxpEsLU1ngRkFYzDC1vmF6J=+aFaWZzOGb7hPTN7-pJQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 4:44 PM, spike wrote:
> OK old news, but this morning is the first I have heard of the tragic train
> wreck in Spain.  I don't understand: we have GPS, the track never changes.
> How simple would it be to rig up trains with some kind of device which
> doesn't allow a train to go faster than it can get around an upcoming curve?
> That would be a simple controls algorithm, would automatically make it safe
> from malicious train operators who wanted to use the device to slay
> infidels, or train operators that are drunk, are texting, are racing, are
> stupid, or a train operator who fell asleep at the switch or has some
> medical condition caused her to slump forward over the controls and push it
> to full steam ahead.  Sheesh, this slew 79 proles and injured many others,
> when a fix is simple.
>
>

Yes, they know that. There are various signalling systems installed
around Europe.
But there are problems at that particular site.
The BBC has a good write-up.
<http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-23449246>

It looks as though a combination of circumstances and a few moments
inattention from the driver was enough to cause the crash.

BillK


From atymes at gmail.com  Mon Jul 29 16:46:24 2013
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2013 09:46:24 -0700
Subject: [ExI] lists going quiet, was: RE: list test
In-Reply-To: <019801ce8c6f$bbd9e180$338da480$@rainier66.com>
References: <019801ce8c6f$bbd9e180$338da480$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNSBfawtbrBCE=vCxciSXwFCsfg74XTU_sqLv6UAuTSt8A@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 8:24 AM, spike <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:

> MB, are you taking into account that many of your hippest hipsters whose
> commentary ignites the biggest online discussions are migrating over to
> darknets?
>

Or just getting busy with Life.  (I hesitate to apply the "Real" tag in
this case.)

It's a common pattern.  People are outspoken and have opinions in their
teenage through college years.  It used to be that many had their first
true taste of wide-open Internet use in college; that has gradually been
progressing to earlier years over time.

But then they graduate and get a job, and slowly find they have less time
and energy to spend on things that don't pay the bills.  Many people,
sadly, use this as an excuse to withdraw from society: by the time they're
30, they don't have headspace for much more than work, things directly
relevant to their home (and any who live there), and perhaps a few
small-time things they have no chance of actually influencing.

There are exceptions, but by and large, to many of their former social
circles they just seem to disappear - essentially, they're dead.
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From max at maxmore.com  Mon Jul 29 17:36:25 2013
From: max at maxmore.com (Max More)
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2013 10:36:25 -0700
Subject: [ExI] list test
In-Reply-To: <00de01ce8c09$72fb01d0$58f10570$@rainier66.com>
References: <20130710152210.GW24217@leitl.org> <op.w0srkebl0wog37@nikita>
 <CAL_armhRmV2N4t03bdOhzAs6dMbNKoWthZAsCnPy6fxuPYd5rA@mail.gmail.com>
 <51F4BB57.6010408@aleph.se>
 <CAL_armjNuYn6M6DVkrFFbJmMCwqR1AWCzb8g+Bq+03Q=_hGtBw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJX-7wWd24JFgzjhrY3+NRgQ2Qeb0m=Th-Da4JXjB9GU=0tZrg@mail.gmail.com>
 <00de01ce8c09$72fb01d0$58f10570$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAJX-7wVsVw1r_U0Ch04rRDE2NZRqbjFeSzgosze5-2SRZS3GCA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jul 28, 2013 at 8:12 PM, spike <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:

> ** **
>
>
> >?I tried to renew at Network Solutions before the deadline, but found
> myself unable to get them to accept payment. Not sure why, except the
> registration info is very outdated (but that was true last time I renewed
> too). I was able to pay on Saturday morning? Max****
>
> ** **
>
>
>
> So why is Max stuck with the bill for this?  Do we have a place to toss in
> donations to pay for the domain?  I?ll kick in a few bucks to maintain the
> list which has provided me with such entertainment for so many years.****
>
> ** **
>
> spike
>


Thanks, spike. PayPal donations to  <max at maxmore.com> would be best, since
I see that the ExI PayPal info it outdated, and I can't change the primary
contact info without having the now non-existent bank account number (which
is somewhere in my files back at the house). Any contributions would be
appreciated, and applied to the reactivation fee, two years just paid and,
if sufficient, to add more years.

--Max


-- 
Max More, PhD
Strategic Philosopher
Co-editor, *The Transhumanist Reader*
http://www.amazon.com/Transhumanist-Reader-Contemporary-Technology-Philosophy/dp/1118334310/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1372225570&sr=1-1&keywords=the+transhumanist+reader
President & CEO, Alcor Life Extension Foundation
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From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Jul 29 17:28:43 2013
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike)
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2013 10:28:43 -0700
Subject: [ExI] spanish train wreck
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armhxpEsLU1ngRkFYzDC1vmF6J=+aFaWZzOGb7hPTN7-pJQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <01a201ce8c72$8bea6dc0$a3bf4940$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armhxpEsLU1ngRkFYzDC1vmF6J=+aFaWZzOGb7hPTN7-pJQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <01c901ce8c81$136614d0$3a323e70$@rainier66.com>

>... On Behalf Of BillK
Subject: Re: [ExI] spanish train wreck

On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 4:44 PM, spike wrote:
>>... OK old news...I don't understand: we have GPS, the track never
changes.
> How simple would it be to rig up trains with some kind of device which 
> doesn't allow a train to go faster than it can get around an upcoming
curve?...

>...<http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-23449246>

>...It looks as though a combination of circumstances and a few moments
inattention from the driver was enough to cause the crash.

>...BillK
_______________________________________________

Thanks BillK, and this makes my point: from a controls engineering
perspective, this is an easy problem, easy, easy.  The GPS can be aboard the
train, with redundancy, that make up a control system that is actually a
superset of what would be needed to assist a train driver.  We know the
argument that automated controls cause the human operators to neglect some
aspects of control, since the driver has the option to turn on the automated
system.  What I propose is something more robust: an automated GPS-based
maximum speed control that the driver cannot override, making it physically
impossible for her to defeat the maximum speed control even if she decides
to intentionally crash the train.  Then a few moments of inattention are
irrelevant.  

Similar systems could easily be installed in airliners.  We had an airline
crash locally, a Korean flight crew came in too slow and whacked the tail on
the threshold, slaying two and wrecking a perfectly healthy aircraft.  The
passengers aboard who were experienced at coming into San Francisco knew
several miles out that the plane was coming in too low and far too slow.
There is a case where the passengers knew more than the two yahoos guiding
the aircraft.

Automation of that glide path control would fix that problem.

spike



From pharos at gmail.com  Mon Jul 29 18:10:36 2013
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2013 19:10:36 +0100
Subject: [ExI] spanish train wreck
In-Reply-To: <01c901ce8c81$136614d0$3a323e70$@rainier66.com>
References: <01a201ce8c72$8bea6dc0$a3bf4940$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armhxpEsLU1ngRkFYzDC1vmF6J=+aFaWZzOGb7hPTN7-pJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <01c901ce8c81$136614d0$3a323e70$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armge=ggntLgpDPZXpsnX=Tb76Dj45exip+JucPqt+xAoBw@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 6:28 PM, spike  wrote:
> Thanks BillK, and this makes my point: from a controls engineering
> perspective, this is an easy problem, easy, easy.  The GPS can be aboard the
> train, with redundancy, that make up a control system that is actually a
> superset of what would be needed to assist a train driver.  We know the
> argument that automated controls cause the human operators to neglect some
> aspects of control, since the driver has the option to turn on the automated
> system.  What I propose is something more robust: an automated GPS-based
> maximum speed control that the driver cannot override, making it physically
> impossible for her to defeat the maximum speed control even if she decides
> to intentionally crash the train.  Then a few moments of inattention are
> irrelevant.
>
> Similar systems could easily be installed in airliners.  We had an airline
> crash locally, a Korean flight crew came in too slow and whacked the tail on
> the threshold, slaying two and wrecking a perfectly healthy aircraft.  The
> passengers aboard who were experienced at coming into San Francisco knew
> several miles out that the plane was coming in too low and far too slow.
> There is a case where the passengers knew more than the two yahoos guiding
> the aircraft.
>
> Automation of that glide path control would fix that problem.
>
>

Quote:
With a system such as the European Train Control System (ETCS), a
driver would not be able to break the speed limit.
-----------

The ETCS system applied to most of that line, but at the end of a high
speed straight run, just before the bend the train switched to an
older track with an older warning system. So at the very time that a
drastic speed cut was required, ETCS no longer applied.
It may be that the driver thought that ETCS still applied, so he was
casual about the speed limits, or maybe the older warning system
failed, or maybe the driver ignored the warning or maybe he didn't
have time to react.

Eventually the fail safe ETCS will be installed everywhere.

Re the SF plane crash, I understand the automated glide path control
system was switched off by the airport for maintenance so the pilots
had to fly the plane in themselves.

The trouble with giving humans systems that protect them from errors
is that the humans then rely on the automated systems and don't look
out for themselves. That's why drivers follow gps instructions to
drive into rivers and along railway tracks.

BillK


From atymes at gmail.com  Mon Jul 29 18:58:30 2013
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2013 11:58:30 -0700
Subject: [ExI] sanity and connectedness, was: RE: list test
In-Reply-To: <201307291534.r6TFXcI7020723@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <00ef01ce8c15$85e0b0e0$91a212a0$@rainier66.com>
 <201307291534.r6TFXcI7020723@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNT2HpW8Xs1fbTNNHr6RrEhnGiV=ZLWAVn9dwtKVF=thyg@mail.gmail.com>

I wonder how effective it would be, to pass such images into the generic
"reverse image search" engines that exist today.  Let them classify that it
is an insect or a car ("What type of Bug?") and what sort, as best they can.
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From mbb386 at main.nc.us  Mon Jul 29 19:17:59 2013
From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB)
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2013 15:17:59 -0400
Subject: [ExI] lists going quiet, was:  RE:  list test
In-Reply-To: <019801ce8c6f$bbd9e180$338da480$@rainier66.com>
References: <019801ce8c6f$bbd9e180$338da480$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <3c86f0c552333cc112d5ab312b13c840.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>

spike wrote:
>
> MB, are you taking into account that many of your hippest
> hipsters whose
> commentary ignites the biggest online discussions are
> migrating over to
> darknets?

To be honest I think so much more information is readily
available now (online) that various lists have not so much
purpose, but the connection of the people involved in
certain interests remains important.

In one case, the list is for researchers, students, and
medical personnel whose focus is venomous creatures.  In
the past the list owner (medical research) kept things
hopping, but he died unexpectedly in a surgical situation.
 Now instead of a consistent medium-low stream of
information, discussion and conversation, there are
occasional very small flurries of questions and answers or
comments on some news item.

I am not a researcher, student, or medical person and am
not in any position to present new material. I merely keep
an eye out for spammers, screen new members, bits of list
cleanup.  It saddens me to see the list stutter into
silence.

Regards,
MB

> I never worried much about privacy.  The most illegal
> thing I have ever done
> is to rip a tag off of a pillow I bought.  But now a prole
> becomes an enemy
> of the state for holding the opinion that we are Taxed
> Enough Already.
> Holding that opinion has become the new crime, and the
> government is
> apparently legally able to target those who hold it.
>
> I can see where people will quietly disappear from any
> forum that can be
> read by any government.
>
> spike



From eugen at leitl.org  Mon Jul 29 19:48:37 2013
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2013 21:48:37 +0200
Subject: [ExI] lists going quiet, was:  RE:  list test
In-Reply-To: <019801ce8c6f$bbd9e180$338da480$@rainier66.com>
References: <019801ce8c6f$bbd9e180$338da480$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <20130729194837.GG29404@leitl.org>

On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 08:24:31AM -0700, spike wrote:

> MB, are you taking into account that many of your hippest hipsters whose
> commentary ignites the biggest online discussions are migrating over to
> darknets?  
> 
> Anyone who is paying attention is watching what is happening in the USA: our
> government has been archiving everything, sharing information with other
> governments which do not have the same free speech rights as we do.  The fed

You're kidding, right?

> has used the IRS to target enemies and the hell of it is this: there is a

Does Assange, Manning, Snowden or Appelbaum ring a bell? 

> serious current debate on whether or not it is actually illegal to use the
> IRS as a completely unaccountable form of government power.  You can't go to

How about extrajudicial renditions? I live in a vassal state of the Empire,
full of military bases (just as the rest of the world), murdering civilians
by drones, unaccountable air transports whisking prisoners to be tortured 
in third states, illegal mass scale sigint with our own politicians lying 
as brazenly as your own spooks in perjury of Congress with nobody giving 
a shit, apparently. 

I do think we can give the IRS a bit of a rest, here.

> prison for what you write, but you can get an IRS audit, and the IRS answers

Yes, we can! (put you in jail).

> to no one.  I study our constitution and find nothing in there which
> actually says the government may not target political enemies in this

Do you know why Appelbaum won't be returning to the US? Or Julian Assange,
who used to post to this list is stuck in an embassy in London? Or why
Snowden is making sure to not enter US soil? 

> fashion.  We had a president in the 70s (Nixon) who did it, was caught,
> resigned in disgrace.  40 years went by, a president is caught doing the
> same thing, doesn't resign, calls it a phony scandal.

Exactly.
 
> I never worried much about privacy.  The most illegal thing I have ever done

I always did.

> is to rip a tag off of a pillow I bought.  But now a prole becomes an enemy
> of the state for holding the opinion that we are Taxed Enough Already.

Taxes? These are not the drones you're looking for.

> Holding that opinion has become the new crime, and the government is
> apparently legally able to target those who hold it.

Legally doesn't mean a thing, gassing Jews was perfectly legal in
Germany. So was Machtergreifung. You need to put up a bit higher
standards of accountability, here.
 
> I can see where people will quietly disappear from any forum that can be
> read by any government.

Another good reason: wanting to actually do something about it.


From steinberg.will at gmail.com  Mon Jul 29 20:25:57 2013
From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg)
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2013 16:25:57 -0400
Subject: [ExI] lists going quiet, was: RE: list test
In-Reply-To: <20130729194837.GG29404@leitl.org>
References: <019801ce8c6f$bbd9e180$338da480$@rainier66.com>
 <20130729194837.GG29404@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <CAKrqSyE3J=5ZG3o91LdR8R+Hdz41+6ke_Cg8-FJfPEcwg0GvtA@mail.gmail.com>

OK Spike, I think you can retire "prole" now.  I mean I'm sure we're all
rather elitist here but it's become a bit tired nonetheless.
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From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Jul 29 20:45:09 2013
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike)
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2013 13:45:09 -0700
Subject: [ExI] lists going quiet, was: RE: list test
In-Reply-To: <CAKrqSyE3J=5ZG3o91LdR8R+Hdz41+6ke_Cg8-FJfPEcwg0GvtA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <019801ce8c6f$bbd9e180$338da480$@rainier66.com>
 <20130729194837.GG29404@leitl.org>
 <CAKrqSyE3J=5ZG3o91LdR8R+Hdz41+6ke_Cg8-FJfPEcwg0GvtA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <021301ce8c9c$849c84c0$8dd58e40$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Will Steinberg
Sent: Monday, July 29, 2013 1:26 PM
To: ExI chat list
Subject: Re: [ExI] lists going quiet, was: RE: list test

 

>.OK Spike, I think you can retire "prole" now.  I mean I'm sure we're all
rather elitist here but it's become a bit tired nonetheless.

 

 

On the contrary, Will.  The term has taken on a whole new significance in
recent months.  You have read Orwell, ja?

 

spike

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From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Jul 29 22:26:36 2013
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike)
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2013 15:26:36 -0700
Subject: [ExI] lists going quiet, was: RE: list test
In-Reply-To: <021301ce8c9c$849c84c0$8dd58e40$@rainier66.com>
References: <019801ce8c6f$bbd9e180$338da480$@rainier66.com>
 <20130729194837.GG29404@leitl.org>
 <CAKrqSyE3J=5ZG3o91LdR8R+Hdz41+6ke_Cg8-FJfPEcwg0GvtA@mail.gmail.com>
 <021301ce8c9c$849c84c0$8dd58e40$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <022701ce8caa$b06bd930$11438b90$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of spike
Sent: Monday, July 29, 2013 1:45 PM
To: 'ExI chat list'
Subject: Re: [ExI] lists going quiet, was: RE: list test

 

 

 

From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Will Steinberg
Sent: Monday, July 29, 2013 1:26 PM
To: ExI chat list
Subject: Re: [ExI] lists going quiet, was: RE: list test

 

>>.OK Spike, I think you can retire "prole" now.  I mean I'm sure we're all
rather elitist here but it's become a bit tired nonetheless.

 

 

>.On the contrary, Will.  The term has taken on a whole new significance in
recent months.  You have read Orwell, ja?  spike

 

To expand a bit on the notion, the term prole should not be retired, but
rather should be brought out of retirement, and used early and often by
those of us who are awake and watching.  I had an insight recently when my
former college roommate came to visit.  He and I graduated together.  He
went to work for the government, I avoided following him there, even though
it was one of my options.  Now, thirty years later, I marvel at how our
once-similar perspectives have diverged.

 

In Orwell's 1984, the inner circle were the government officials that had
actual authority and political power.  The outer circle included the rather
enormous group of workers who were employed by the government, everything
from janitors up to top level bureaucrats outside the inner circle.  The
proles were everyone else.  In Orwell's scenario, the proles could be low
level employees at anything, unemployed, but not necessarily: they could be
highly educated and highly skilled.  But not really wealthy, for in his dark
scenario, people outside of government control did not prosper.

 

My former roommate did well, climbing the civilian ranks supporting the
military.  He is an outer circle guy very close to the inner circle.  When
we discussed the fed's activities, especially in matters such as
sequestration, it became clear our views had diverged radically.  Regardless
of whether sequestration is good or bad, he opposed it.  He and everyone he
associates with are dependent on a government paycheck.  All else is
irrelevant when one is completely dependent on that paycheck.

 

Have we lost perspective so completely that we cannot see the transition our
country has made in 40 years?  A president was caught using the IRS as a
weapon against his political opponents, he resigned in disgrace under the
threat of impeachment.  The current president does the same thing only a lot
more of it, and he is calling it a phony scandal.  People are openly asking
if there is anything illegal about using the IRS as a weapon.  This
transition happened in only 4 decades.

 

For those outside the US, here is why this is so important.  In politics as
in anything else, the pendulum swings.  Our senators are elected every 6
years.  The 2014 elections will be 6 years since a whole bunch of senators
were swept into office on Obama's coattails, when he enjoyed a +20 percent
approval rating.  Now, those guys are up for re-election and Obama's
coattails are a negative value, about -4% and dropping steadily.  So what
happens when that pendulum swings all the way over, and the opposing side
comes sweeping into office in the next two elections, 2014 and 2016?  They
come in with a powerful precedent: they can use the IRS to slay anyone in
opposition.  Result: a functional dictatorship possibly far more repressive
than anything Orwell foresaw, one that can target anyone for any view, not
just on taxes, but on cryonics, on transhumanism, on privacy rights, on
atheism, on anything it doesn't like, anything.

 

Will, do you still object to my use of the term proles?  In the world in
which we are headed, even proles are not free.

 

spike

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From eugen at leitl.org  Tue Jul 30 09:08:22 2013
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2013 11:08:22 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Bitcoins banned in Thailand
Message-ID: <20130730090822.GW29404@leitl.org>


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/currency/10210022/Bitcoins-banned-in-Thailand.html

Bitcoins banned in Thailand

Thailand has become the first country to ban bitcoins after the central bank
ruled it is not a currency.

US authorities are examining the use of virtual currencies such as Bitcoin
amid fears that Americans are using them to evade taxes.

The ruling means it is illegal to buy and sell Bitcoins, buy or sell any
goods or services in exchange for Bitcoins, send any Bitcoins to anyone
outside of Thailand, or receive Bitcoins from anyone outside the country 

By Andrew Trotman

8:38PM BST 29 Jul 2013

In a statement on its website, Bitcoin said it had given a presentation to
the Bank of Thailand about how the currency works in a bid to operate in the
country.

However, at the end of the meeting, "senior members of the Foreign Exchange
Administration and Policy Department advised that due to lack of existing
applicable laws, capital controls and the fact that Bitcoin straddles
multiple financial facets... Bitcoin activities are illegal in Thailand".

The ruling means it is illegal to buy and sell bitcoins, buy or sell any
goods or services in exchange for bitcoins, send any bitcoins to anyone
outside of Thailand, or receive bitcoins from anyone outside the country.

Bitcoin said it "has no choice but to suspend operations until such as time
that the laws in Thailand are updated to account for the existance [sic] of
Bitcoin", adding that "the Bank of Thailand has said they will further
consider the issue, but did not give any specific timeline".

Launched in 2009 in the wake of the global financial crisis, bitcoins are
"mined" using complex computer source code. The virtual currency started as a
relatively niche method of payment, devised by an anonymous programmer, but
can now be used for anything from online gambling to pizza delivery.

Earlier this month, the Winklevoss twins - who famously sued Facebook founder
Mark Zuckerberg for $140m, filed to float their stash of bitcoins on a
conventional stock exchange.

However, in June it was reported that US authorities are examining the use of
virtual currencies such as bitcoins amid fears that Americans are using them
to evade taxes.



From rolandodegilead at gmail.com  Tue Jul 30 11:26:26 2013
From: rolandodegilead at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Eugenio_Mart=EDnez?=)
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2013 13:26:26 +0200
Subject: [ExI] spanish train wreck
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armge=ggntLgpDPZXpsnX=Tb76Dj45exip+JucPqt+xAoBw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <01a201ce8c72$8bea6dc0$a3bf4940$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armhxpEsLU1ngRkFYzDC1vmF6J=+aFaWZzOGb7hPTN7-pJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <01c901ce8c81$136614d0$3a323e70$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armge=ggntLgpDPZXpsnX=Tb76Dj45exip+JucPqt+xAoBw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANSO=1kscozKmFqj+u7+FX-zEPg_haL9xLe0Fi9RO4ysQG8VSw@mail.gmail.com>

I haven?t read deeply the problems with the train, but, as far as I know,
there is not security systems enough because they wanted to make the high
speed train as soon as possible, so, without that security system, just ten
seconds of loss of concentration of the driver may make the train wreck.
And it did.

If you have read about the victims and you know how surnames works in Spain
(Mart?nez is my father?s surname and Sierra is my mother surname. We don?t
lose any surname, so we can trace it undefinitedly. My full name, as long
as I know is Eugenio Manuel Mart?nez Sierra Ramos Garc?a Noriega Garc?a
Ufano) maybe you have read about a Instituto Cervante?s teacher in
Estambul, Manuel Sierra Mor?n, whose first surname coincide with my second
one. He was my oldest cousin. He used to pass the summers in my house and
for me and my siblings was like our brother. My girlfriend met him first
two days before the accident. I am very happy because I told her that he
was like my brother before he died, so I know for sure that I really felt
that and that is not a feeling caused because nostalgia.
My family is devastated. He was chatting and joking in my familia Sierra?s
whatsapp group and sent us a photo from the train 20 minutes before he died.

What are the chances? He had lived in a lot of places around the world and
he was spending just a couple of weeks in Spain. He had a very beautiful
farewell: He was with everybody of us, their family and friends. I don?t
believe in anything not real, but I like to think - even knowing that it?s
false - that he knew that he was going to die, so he spend a couple of
hours with each of us alone, that is what he did. We had a lot of pending
conversations and we closed all of them his last week. Sound like a big
coincidence, but that happens

The night of the trainwreck was horrible, because we couldn?t find him and
he didn?t reply the phone and we were reading everything on the internet
and asking for information in twitter and facebook and etc. The next day,
when we have official confirmation, was like a terrible rest..

The funeral was two days ago. A catholic priest made whatever he wanted to
do without ask for permission and broke the "step by step" planned funeral
that we had ready. We didn?t took him out of the room because we didn?t
want to make a scandal. Yesterday there was a catholic official funeral,
even if some of the victims were atheist - like my cousin - and I heard
that there is a muslim one. A woman approached to me in the funeral and
told me about him staying with god. I asked her were was his god when the
trainwreck. Still waiting for an answer.

The organization was a real disaster. Is always the same with this
government in every big disaster: My cousin arrived 8 hours later than the
estimated time because he was sent to another family. Luckily, we didn?t
had the chance of open the coffin and see that he was not him because they
ordered the hearse return before. The other family was not so fortunate.

A lot of people asked to everybody to not post photos of the corpses. I
think that is a mistake. I looked for him in every photo because I wanted
to know if he was dead as soon as posible. What is horrible is the
trainwrecking video where you can see how the train go nuts. They put it in
the tv once and again. I can?t see it one more time.

I am still not believing it.


On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 8:10 PM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 6:28 PM, spike  wrote:
> > Thanks BillK, and this makes my point: from a controls engineering
> > perspective, this is an easy problem, easy, easy.  The GPS can be aboard
> the
> > train, with redundancy, that make up a control system that is actually a
> > superset of what would be needed to assist a train driver.  We know the
> > argument that automated controls cause the human operators to neglect
> some
> > aspects of control, since the driver has the option to turn on the
> automated
> > system.  What I propose is something more robust: an automated GPS-based
> > maximum speed control that the driver cannot override, making it
> physically
> > impossible for her to defeat the maximum speed control even if she
> decides
> > to intentionally crash the train.  Then a few moments of inattention are
> > irrelevant.
> >
> > Similar systems could easily be installed in airliners.  We had an
> airline
> > crash locally, a Korean flight crew came in too slow and whacked the
> tail on
> > the threshold, slaying two and wrecking a perfectly healthy aircraft.
>  The
> > passengers aboard who were experienced at coming into San Francisco knew
> > several miles out that the plane was coming in too low and far too slow.
> > There is a case where the passengers knew more than the two yahoos
> guiding
> > the aircraft.
> >
> > Automation of that glide path control would fix that problem.
> >
> >
>
> Quote:
> With a system such as the European Train Control System (ETCS), a
> driver would not be able to break the speed limit.
> -----------
>
> The ETCS system applied to most of that line, but at the end of a high
> speed straight run, just before the bend the train switched to an
> older track with an older warning system. So at the very time that a
> drastic speed cut was required, ETCS no longer applied.
> It may be that the driver thought that ETCS still applied, so he was
> casual about the speed limits, or maybe the older warning system
> failed, or maybe the driver ignored the warning or maybe he didn't
> have time to react.
>
> Eventually the fail safe ETCS will be installed everywhere.
>
> Re the SF plane crash, I understand the automated glide path control
> system was switched off by the airport for maintenance so the pilots
> had to fly the plane in themselves.
>
> The trouble with giving humans systems that protect them from errors
> is that the humans then rely on the automated systems and don't look
> out for themselves. That's why drivers follow gps instructions to
> drive into rivers and along railway tracks.
>
> BillK
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>



-- 
OLVIDATE.DE
Tatachan.com
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From lubkin at unreasonable.com  Tue Jul 30 13:16:35 2013
From: lubkin at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin)
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2013 09:16:35 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Digital Jeeves
Message-ID: <201307301317.r6UDGoFU014259@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

Nothing new for many of you, but some rants bear repeating ?

Much of the technology around us, from spam 
filters to a dishwasher, is a surrogate for 
quality household and professional staff. Butler, 
maid, chauffeur, secretary, assistant, etc.

The vital trait that digital Jeeveses lack is 
discretion. They now can all be presumed to spy 
on you, absent proof they aren't, if there's any 
possible backpath. Which implies anyone else who 
wants to know also can, absent proof they can't. 
Your information is sold, shared, hacked, stolen, 
and vacuumed. Moreover, if the tech can be 
remotely activated at your request, it can also 
be remotely activated by others, without your knowledge or specific consent.

For now, I pick and choose. Some tech I use, 
accepting the unspoken prices. Some I don't, 
intentionally. Some I use, but trust other tech 
to protect me from the first. Some I roll myself.

I'd love the advent of a smarter set of digital 
staff, if I can be convinced of their discretion 
and loyalty. I see a billion-dollar opportunity 
for an incorruptible and impervious service that can guarantee that.

<http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/30/technology/apps-that-know-what-you-want-before-you-do.html>
Apps That Know What You Want, Before You Do


-- David.




From spike at rainier66.com  Tue Jul 30 14:34:55 2013
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike)
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2013 07:34:55 -0700
Subject: [ExI] spanish train wreck
In-Reply-To: <CANSO=1kscozKmFqj+u7+FX-zEPg_haL9xLe0Fi9RO4ysQG8VSw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <01a201ce8c72$8bea6dc0$a3bf4940$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armhxpEsLU1ngRkFYzDC1vmF6J=+aFaWZzOGb7hPTN7-pJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <01c901ce8c81$136614d0$3a323e70$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armge=ggntLgpDPZXpsnX=Tb76Dj45exip+JucPqt+xAoBw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANSO=1kscozKmFqj+u7+FX-zEPg_haL9xLe0Fi9RO4ysQG8VSw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00c701ce8d31$f5e061c0$e1a12540$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Eugenio
Mart?nez
Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2013 4:26 AM
To: ExI chat list
Subject: Re: [ExI] spanish train wreck

 

>
I haven?t read deeply the problems with the train, but, as far as I know,
there is not security systems enough because they wanted to make the high
speed train as soon as possible, so, without that security system, just ten
seconds of loss of concentration of the driver may make the train wreck. And
it did


 

So sorry are we to hear of your family?s loss Eugenio.  Cursed be death.

spike

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From pizerdavid at rocketmail.com  Mon Jul 29 18:24:18 2013
From: pizerdavid at rocketmail.com (David Pizer)
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2013 11:24:18 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics Convention and Festival in October
Message-ID: <1375122258.20738.YahooMailNeo@web161804.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

Below is an early, tentative, announcement for the cryonics convention/fair in October.? Any and all suggestions are solicited.? Please?send them to this forum.???Also, please feel free to pass this information to any cryonics, life extension trans-humanism forums.??? This is an affordable event with most input and ideas coming from members of the cryonics community.? 
Thank you,? David Pizer??
?
?
?
?
?
FAQ
Cryonics Convention, Laughlin Nevada 
Friday,
Saturday, Sunday October 25, 26, 27, 2013
Sponsored
by: The Society for Venturism,
The Society for Venturism, along with Don Laughlin and
the Riverside Resort is hosting a cryonics convention in October this year. The
following information is not the final announcement and is tentative and may
change. The Name of the
convention will be the FAQ Cryonics Convention. ?FAQ, as most people know, stands for
Frequently Asked Questions. ??This
convention will be open to people who are already signed up for cryonics, and
for prospects for cryonics as we also we expect a good turnout from people who
are thinking about joining. 
?????????????????? TENTATIVE SCHEDULE OF
SPEAKERS AND PRESENTATIONS
Friday? 1:00 pm Cairn Idun? BA: Human Development and
Family Life ?Early Education.
Affiliations: Alcor,
Venturists, Options for Safe, Secure and Legal Asset Preservation for
Post-Resuscitation Access, The Young Cryonicists Gathering,? Singles Week for Immortalists, Cryonicists,
and Life Extentionists.
Title of Presentation: ?Attitude Evolution.?? An increasing attitude of
"Peaceful Tolerance" is evolving within human culture.? This evolution provides a critical benefit to
cryonicists.? "Peaceful Tolerance"
pertains to those beliefs and activities that you DO NOT endorse.? As long as that belief or activity is
voluntary and peacefully held or practiced amongst those not under undue
influence or weakened mental capacity, you refrain from interfering. You might
say: "That's not for me, but I accept that is your choice." 
?
2:00 pm? Mike Perry? ?PhD
and Cryonics Historian, Alcor Treasurer and Patient Care Taker. 
Title of
Presentations:?? History of Venturism.? 
?????????????????????????????????????? Creating
a Cryonics Hall of Fame & History 
?
2:30 pm?? Ben Best? ?BSc
(Pharmacy),? BSc (Physics/Computing), BBA
(Accounting/Finance, PRP
Cryonics Institute,
Mensa, Life Extension Foundation, National Association of Parliamentarians.? 
Title of Presentation: ??Cryonics on Wikipedia, A survey of
cryonics-related entries on Wikipedia and the struggle to have cryonics
represented accurately.
?
3:00 pm? Break?(Socialize, visit the exhibition room,? meet other cryonicists, make friends).
?
4:00 pm? Mark
Plus? ?BS Mathematics, MS College
Teaching
Secretary for The Society for
Venturism.? Alcor.
Title of Presentation:? Review of the Venturism charity programs and recipients? 
?
4:20 pm Rudi Hoffman, ?
Cryonics Insurance Expert, 
Title of Presentation: The
Affordable Immortalist, ?Maybe you CAN
defeat Death and Taxes
?
5:00 pm? Break(Socialize, visit the exhibition
room,? meet other cryonicists, make
friends).
?
6:00 pm? Buffet Dinner
Party. ?$20 meal charge.
?
7:30 pm? Aubrey de
Grey? PhD 
SENS Research Foundation
Title of Presentation:? A Biologist's View on why cryonics is
feasible. Many non-biologists persume that cryonics must be fantasy because it
is not mainstream.? This is a reasonable
inference for those who do not appreciate how appallingly balkanised biology
is, with almost all biologists being expert in only a very narrow area and
having no time to study other areas.? Since a field's reputation for infeasibility is a reason not to pay
attention it, this parlous situation is self-fulfilling.? In this talk I will see to rectify it.
?
Saturday:?? Breakfast on your own at one of the food
courts.? (time to visit the booths/tables
in the exhibition room)
?
10:00 ?to 11:00 ?am?Catherine
Baldwin, Chief Operating Officer, Suspended Animation Inc.
?
11:00 to Noon? Chana
de Wolf ?Research Update from Advanced Neural
Biosciences, Inc.
?
Noon? Break ??????(Socialize, visit the exhibition room,? meet other cryonicists, make friends).
?
1:00 pm?? Stephen Valentine? representing the TimeShip? project? - more info to come
?
2:00 pm Group Discussion "How can we all
make cryonics better."
?
3:00 pm?? Break? (Socialize, visit the exhibition room,? meet other cryonicists, make friends).
?
4:00 pm? Max More PhD
Alcor Life Extension
Title of Presentation:
Cryonics Procedures and Improvements at Alcor.? 
?
5:00 pm David Pizer? BS (Political
Science)? Grad Study, Philosophy
Society for Venturism,? retired VP and Treasurer for Alcor Life
Extension
Title of Presentation:? (1) How the Venturist No Autopsy card might
prevent you from an autopsy and therefore improve your suspension,? (2) Once you are in suspension, how the
Venturists can provide backup protection.
?
5:30 pm? Break? (Socialize, visit the exhibition room,? meet other cryonicists, make friends).
?
6:30? pm? Buffet Dinner and Party? $20 meal charge
?
8:00? pm?? Meet Don Laughlin.? Mr. Laughlin takes
questions from the audience on any subject.??? 
??????????????????????? ?????
?
Sunday? Breakfast on your own in
one of the food courts? (time to visit the booths/tables in the exhibition room)
?
10:00? am? presentation? (waiting for confirmation)
?
11:00 am? Group Discussion Attendees
gather for informal discussion on how to make next year's event even better.
?
Noon:? The
event is over.? ---------------------
?
In
addition to the speakers and presentations here are some other considerations:
There will be an adjoining Exhibition
Room with information tables and/or booths where attendees can pick up
literature from leading cryonics and life extension organizations, and talk
with some of their representatives in person.? Any cryonics organization, or any cryoncist individuals that attend the
event can have one info table (at no charge) to display their information,? offer handouts,? sell gifts, books or other items of interest
to cryonicists.
?The Riverside Resort and
Laughlin Nevada are great places to have conventions and have some fun at the
same time. Besides the casino with gambling, bowling alley, several movie
theaters, and conventional game rooms, there is swimming in the Colorado River
and places for a beach picnic. Or you can rent a ski-doo for river fun. And
there is the whole rest of the town of Laughlin with several more casinos to
explore that feature Las Vegas type shows. The rates for the convention, meals,
and the rooms will be extremely reduced rates for us as Mr. Laughlin is a
long-time cryonicist and wants to help make this an annual and affordable
event. You will want to be a "charter attendee" to these conferences!
So this convention will have everything, speakers, info booths,
parties, relaxation and fun in the sun AND IT WILL BE VERY AFFORDABLE.? If you
have any questions, or suggestions, please send them to me at
pizerdavid at rocketmail.com.
Sincerely. 
David Pizer, President,? The
Society for Venturism,? 
PS: You can register now with the below forms. ??(If you can't attend but want to send a
donation to help with the expenses you can also do that on our website? www.venturist.info)
?
VENTURIST
FAQ CONFERENCE REGISTRATION FORM
To be held in Laughlin, Nevada
on October 25, 26 & 27, 2013.
(This is to reserve
attendance at the conference, to reserve sleeping room see below)
Your
name:__________________________________________________
I will be attending
with:___________________________________
(Each person in your
party needs to fill out a registration form.)
?
Your email
address:_________________________________________
?
Your mailing
address:________________________________________
?
Your phone
number:___________________________________________
Enclosed is my
payment for the following items:
Early Bird
Registration (required)?????????????????????????????$ 75.00 
Buffet Dinner Party
Friday Night ??????????????????????????????$
20.00
Buffet Dinner Party
Saturday Night ???????????????????????????? $
20.00
Subtotal
?????????????????????????????????????????????????????? $_______
Voluntarily
additional donation to defray conference expenses:? $_______
TOTAL ENCLOSED
???????????????????????????????????????????????? $_______
?
Method of payment
(check one):
______Check in
enclosed for total enclosed with this form and mailed to: Society for
Venturism, 11255 S. Highway 69, Mayer, AZ 86333
______I have emailed
the form to societyforventurism at gmail.comand I am paying through PayPal on the
Venturists? website: http://venturist.info
VENTURIST
FAQ CONFERENCE ROOM RESERVATION INFORMATION
(this is to reserve a sleeping
room)
Instructions for securing
lodging for the conference.
Attendees are
responsible for making their own room reservations. To do this for this
conference, call Don Laughlin?s Riverside Resort at one of these numbers:
toll-free nationwide: 1-800-227-3849; Nevada: 702-298-2535; or Arizona:
928-763-7070. Please tell the reservation clerks that you are attending the FAQ
Cryonics Conference, and give them the nights (not the days) you?ll be spending
to get the special discounted rate on your rooms at the resort, and be ready to
give the clerk your credit card number to guarantee your reservation.
VENTURIST
CONFERENCE TABLE RESERVATION INFORMATION
Instructions to reserve your
free display table
As an attendee at
this conference, you may have use of one table in the exhibition room, at no
charge, to display cryonics or life extension-related information, products,
books, gifts or other items of interest to cryonicists and life extensionists. 
Would you like to
have use of a table? NO:____? YES:____
If YES, for what
purpose would you like to use the table?_______________________
We cannot be
responsible for items left unattended on guests? tables. 
Directions
to get to Laughlin, Nevada 
The
Riverside Resort is easy to find once you arrive.
From Phoenix: US 93 north to I-40 west
through Kingman. Take the Bullhead City / Las Vegas exit and turn right at the
signal at the end of the exit ramp. Continue west taking the Highway 68 ramp
toward Bullhead City / Laughlin. Highway 68 merges into Arizona Highway 95.
Turn right at the Laughlin Bridge.
From Southern California: I-15 north to Barstow; I-40 east to Needles,
CA. Exit on River Road cutoff, turn north for 22 miles on Needles Highway to
Casino Drive, turn right.
From Las Vegas:
Interstate 515, US 93/95 south through Las Vegas towards Boulder City. After
passing through Henderson and the Railroad Pass, take ramp and turn right onto
US 95 south toward Searchlight/Laughlin for 55 miles. Turn left onto NV 163.
Head east for 19 miles. Turn right on Casino Drive. 
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From rolandodegilead at gmail.com  Tue Jul 30 14:53:06 2013
From: rolandodegilead at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Eugenio_Mart=EDnez?=)
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2013 16:53:06 +0200
Subject: [ExI] spanish train wreck
In-Reply-To: <00c701ce8d31$f5e061c0$e1a12540$@rainier66.com>
References: <01a201ce8c72$8bea6dc0$a3bf4940$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armhxpEsLU1ngRkFYzDC1vmF6J=+aFaWZzOGb7hPTN7-pJQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <01c901ce8c81$136614d0$3a323e70$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armge=ggntLgpDPZXpsnX=Tb76Dj45exip+JucPqt+xAoBw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANSO=1kscozKmFqj+u7+FX-zEPg_haL9xLe0Fi9RO4ysQG8VSw@mail.gmail.com>
 <00c701ce8d31$f5e061c0$e1a12540$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CANSO=1n6ty1WYHJkyH1=co9dQWVyWgeET=yCEJFLx+ygbSoMkA@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks a lot. Searching his things with my aunt we found this video of him
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnGOWtkgzxM It?s called "love at first
sight". The only word is a long "fuuuuck" (that, in Spain, is not a very
bad word) and it?s 14 seconds of his most pure esence.


On Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 4:34 PM, spike <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:

> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:
> extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] *On Behalf Of *Eugenio Mart?nez
> *Sent:* Tuesday, July 30, 2013 4:26 AM
> *To:* ExI chat list
>
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] spanish train wreck****
>
> ** **
>
> >?I haven?t read deeply the problems with the train, but, as far as I
> know, there is not security systems enough because they wanted to make the
> high speed train as soon as possible, so, without that security system,
> just ten seconds of loss of concentration of the driver may make the train
> wreck. And it did?****
>
> ** **
>
> So sorry are we to hear of your family?s loss Eugenio.  Cursed be death.**
> **
>
> spike****
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>


-- 
OLVIDATE.DE
Tatachan.com
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From gts_2000 at yahoo.com  Tue Jul 30 15:00:52 2013
From: gts_2000 at yahoo.com (Gordon)
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2013 08:00:52 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] Bitcoins banned in Thailand
In-Reply-To: <20130730090822.GW29404@leitl.org>
References: <20130730090822.GW29404@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <1375196452.20237.YahooMailNeo@web121205.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

The market shrugged off this news, with Bitcoin continuing its rally and exceeding $100 for the first time in a while. Currently $102


________________________________
 From: Eugen Leitl <eugen at leitl.org>
To: tt at postbiota.org; ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>; doctrinezero at googlegroups.com 
Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2013 3:08 AM
Subject: [ExI] Bitcoins banned in Thailand
 


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/currency/10210022/Bitcoins-banned-in-Thailand.html

Bitcoins banned in Thailand

Thailand has become the first country to ban bitcoins after the central bank
ruled it is not a currency.

US authorities are examining the use of virtual currencies such as Bitcoin
amid fears that Americans are using them to evade taxes.

The ruling means it is illegal to buy and sell Bitcoins, buy or sell any
goods or services in exchange for Bitcoins, send any Bitcoins to anyone
outside of Thailand, or receive Bitcoins from anyone outside the country 

By Andrew Trotman

8:38PM BST 29 Jul 2013

In a statement on its website, Bitcoin said it had given a presentation to
the Bank of Thailand about how the currency works in a bid to operate in the
country.

However, at the end of the meeting, "senior members of the Foreign Exchange
Administration and Policy Department advised that due to lack of existing
applicable laws, capital controls and the fact that Bitcoin straddles
multiple financial facets... Bitcoin activities are illegal in Thailand".

The ruling means it is illegal to buy and sell bitcoins, buy or sell any
goods or services in exchange for bitcoins, send any bitcoins to anyone
outside of Thailand, or receive bitcoins from anyone outside the country.

Bitcoin said it "has no choice but to suspend operations until such as time
that the laws in Thailand are updated to account for the existance [sic] of
Bitcoin", adding that "the Bank of Thailand has said they will further
consider the issue, but did not give any specific timeline".

Launched in 2009 in the wake of the global financial crisis, bitcoins are
"mined" using complex computer source code. The virtual currency started as a
relatively niche method of payment, devised by an anonymous programmer, but
can now be used for anything from online gambling to pizza delivery.

Earlier this month, the Winklevoss twins - who famously sued Facebook founder
Mark Zuckerberg for $140m, filed to float their stash of bitcoins on a
conventional stock exchange.

However, in June it was reported that US authorities are examining the use of
virtual currencies such as bitcoins amid fears that Americans are using them
to evade taxes.

_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
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From atymes at gmail.com  Tue Jul 30 16:46:43 2013
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2013 09:46:43 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Digital Jeeves
In-Reply-To: <201307301317.r6UDGoFU014259@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <201307301317.r6UDGoFU014259@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNR7ejQ7EvvY14hN5o+Em1i1vtyA5Es_uXJEb+k9mPYgcw@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 6:16 AM, David Lubkin <lubkin at unreasonable.com>wrote:

> The vital trait that digital Jeeveses lack is discretion. They now can all
> be presumed to spy on you, absent proof they aren't, if there's any
> possible backpath. Which implies anyone else who wants to know also can,
> absent proof they can't.


Careful about that "guilty until proven innocent".  It's a very small step
from there to, for example, holding their manufacturers responsible for
monitoring your house 24/7 even if they never agreed to it, and thus to
holding them liable should a burglary occur and the police weren't
immediately called.

Some digital Jeeveses could be spying on you.  The potential is there.
That's different from relying on them to do so.
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From pharos at gmail.com  Tue Jul 30 17:04:35 2013
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2013 18:04:35 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Digital Jeeves
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNR7ejQ7EvvY14hN5o+Em1i1vtyA5Es_uXJEb+k9mPYgcw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <201307301317.r6UDGoFU014259@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <CALAdGNR7ejQ7EvvY14hN5o+Em1i1vtyA5Es_uXJEb+k9mPYgcw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armiktx_tBXBnUSO_DSsC5g+LGn5ey+cLCTvvX2Yuk53P5g@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 5:46 PM, Adrian Tymes  wrote:
> Careful about that "guilty until proven innocent".  It's a very small step
> from there to, for example, holding their manufacturers responsible for
> monitoring your house 24/7 even if they never agreed to it, and thus to
> holding them liable should a burglary occur and the police weren't
> immediately called.
>
> Some digital Jeeveses could be spying on you.  The potential is there.
> That's different from relying on them to do so.
>
>

'potential?????  Is 83% potential enough?

<http://www.darkreading.com/applications/report-83-of-mobile-apps-are-risky/240159151>

 Highlights from the App Reputation Report are:

? Overall, 83% of the most popular apps are associated with security
risks and privacy issues.
? 95% of the top free apps and 77.5% of the top paid apps exhibited at
least one risky behavior.
? 78% of the most popular free Android apps identify the user's ID
(UDID). - enabling tracking
? Even though Apple prohibits its developers from accessing the UDID,
5.5% of the tested iOS apps still do.
? 72% of the top free apps track for the user's location, compared to
41% of paid apps.
-----------------

If you're on the web assume you are being tracked, recorded and analysed.

BillK



From anders at aleph.se  Tue Jul 30 18:42:55 2013
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2013 20:42:55 +0200
Subject: [ExI] lists going quiet, was:  RE:  list test
In-Reply-To: <019801ce8c6f$bbd9e180$338da480$@rainier66.com>
References: <019801ce8c6f$bbd9e180$338da480$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <51F8092F.9020309@aleph.se>

The basic question of why a forum goes quiet can have multiple causes. 
Few active participants and reduced likeliehood of posting are the first 
order causes, but the causes for these can be many:

* People are temporarily away or lazy, as in the holiday case
* People are temporarily or permanently distracted by other activities 
(competing forums, competing activities, competing media, ...)
* The discussion on the forum is not conducive to posting new stuff 
(everything has already been said, bad flamewars, complex in-groups, ...)
* Natural loss of old members, not enough new members (how does 
recruitment work? has the community entry threshold increased? changes 
in perceived status, benefit, ...)
* Loss of key members (moderators, facilitators, the expert, the 
discussion driver, ...)
* People post less because of perceived costs or risks (fear of leaks, 
interception, reputational loss; feelings one has to write super-good 
posts to fit in, ...)
... and probably many other categories.

I think many forums decline because of a combination. The rise of new 
media and social networking will draw some people away (how many forums, 
feeds and other media can you check per day, even with aggregation? How 
well can you keep up with multiple discussions?) while maturation of 
forum discussions/communities often makes the threshold of entry harder 
(how do we treat the newbies, who ask the same question for the 4711th 
time?) Over time, key members will also disappear simply because they 
move on in their lives, and if there is nobody to take over that role 
the community network will become less effective.

I think the new media is a likely explanation, since they dilute the 
attention (lowering p). In 1993 the only online media I had was email, 
email lists and Usenet, today I can email, use a list, blog (on several 
different blogs), tweet, post to google+, participate in numerous 
forums, use Second Life, Skype, RetroShare and whatnot. I would be 
surprised if competition for attention and forum members have gotten 
sharper, and that they have moved to some extent.

I think the darknet explanation ("virtual Galt's Gulch scenario"?) is 
unlikely, since so few people use darknets at present. They suffer 
exactly from the critical mass problem I described: unless a group moves 
en masse into it, they will have a tendency to (1) have fewer 
participants, (2) it is harder to find other or new participants. So I 
would predict that at present if the elite is using darknets, they are 
not getting that much good discussion going (outside some small groups - 
having some burning shared interest, typically illegal or subversive, 
can be a good motivator). In fact, if you want to ignite a big online 
discussion you do not want to put it on a darknet, since you want to 
broadcast it as widely as possible. Nyms are more important than 
darknets, IMHO.


-- 
Dr Anders Sandberg
Future of Humanity Institute
Oxford Martin School
Oxford University



From pharos at gmail.com  Tue Jul 30 19:18:05 2013
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2013 20:18:05 +0100
Subject: [ExI] lists going quiet, was: RE: list test
In-Reply-To: <51F8092F.9020309@aleph.se>
References: <019801ce8c6f$bbd9e180$338da480$@rainier66.com>
 <51F8092F.9020309@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <CAL_armhQE3c__UTz-aH_i2h7QR2XZXoHp3me3qZbU=zwzFCH=w@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 7:42 PM, Anders Sandberg  wrote:
> I think many forums decline because of a combination. The rise of new media
> and social networking will draw some people away (how many forums, feeds and
> other media can you check per day, even with aggregation? How well can you
> keep up with multiple discussions?) while maturation of forum
> discussions/communities often makes the threshold of entry harder (how do we
> treat the newbies, who ask the same question for the 4711th time?) Over
> time, key members will also disappear simply because they move on in their
> lives, and if there is nobody to take over that role the community network
> will become less effective.
>
> I think the new media is a likely explanation, since they dilute the
> attention (lowering p). In 1993 the only online media I had was email, email
> lists and Usenet, today I can email, use a list, blog (on several different
> blogs), tweet, post to google+, participate in numerous forums, use Second
> Life, Skype, RetroShare and whatnot. I would be surprised if competition for
> attention and forum members have gotten sharper, and that they have moved to
> some extent.
>
>

I think there is more involved than just new social media.

When you walk through the town, look around and you will see most
people are staring at a smartphone, or talking to a smartphone or
listening to a smartphone. It is a change in lifestyle. Their life is
full up with communicating. This is the first generation that chats
continually with someone, *anyone*, to stop the feeling of being
alone.

email is for old folk, as the saying goes. So you won't find many
youngsters in email forums. There are some, of course! :)
But I fear that thoughts over 140 characters in length are TLDR for
the next generation.

On the other hand the older generation has always thought the younger
generation was pretty useless, so maybe there is still hope for them.
;)


BillK


From msd001 at gmail.com  Tue Jul 30 19:51:54 2013
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2013 15:51:54 -0400
Subject: [ExI] lists going quiet, was: RE: list test
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armhQE3c__UTz-aH_i2h7QR2XZXoHp3me3qZbU=zwzFCH=w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <019801ce8c6f$bbd9e180$338da480$@rainier66.com>
 <51F8092F.9020309@aleph.se>
 <CAL_armhQE3c__UTz-aH_i2h7QR2XZXoHp3me3qZbU=zwzFCH=w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOJFdbJE640RHYm0kv6MXG7nBB3qJCdNURofWfE3mbZ51bU+9Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 3:18 PM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:
> When you walk through the town, look around and you will see most
> people are staring at a smartphone, or talking to a smartphone or
> listening to a smartphone. It is a change in lifestyle. Their life is
> full up with communicating. This is the first generation that chats
> continually with someone, *anyone*, to stop the feeling of being
> alone.

I think this is an important point.  We generally are natural pack
animals.  Fear keeps our herd very closely clustered around a few
central herd members (these are considered idealist?)  Those who
escape the herd may be very happy but as far as we know they're lost
and gone forever.

> email is for old folk, as the saying goes. So you won't find many
> youngsters in email forums. There are some, of course! :)
> But I fear that thoughts over 140 characters in length are TLDR for
> the next generation.

It's not just the characters per thought count that's going down.
Movie scenes longer than 5 minutes have become too long to hold
audience attention.  A single camera view lasting longer than 20
seconds has become boring.  It's almost as though the flight/fight
response must be continuously active (chasing after a moment of
understanding is also flight) else we might lose the adrenaline rush.
Yeah, the physical reaction is exhausting... the mental engagement is
nearly nonexistent.


From ALONZOTG at verizon.net  Tue Jul 30 20:07:46 2013
From: ALONZOTG at verizon.net (Alan Grimes)
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2013 16:07:46 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Story part 2 yet again.
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNT1xshK_cDMEZmoc_G4TRbZRsgGYEzk5i76qxwn3BHc3Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <51ECCD2C.2020203@verizon.net>
 <CALAdGNT1xshK_cDMEZmoc_G4TRbZRsgGYEzk5i76qxwn3BHc3Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <51F81D12.5020407@verizon.net>

Don't take this the wrong way, I'm trying to give you some constructive 
feedback.


Adrian Tymes wrote:
> On Sun, Jul 21, 2013 at 11:11 PM, Alan Grimes <ALONZOTG at verizon.net 
> <mailto:ALONZOTG at verizon.net>> wrote:
>
>     # How will VR environments be provisioned? How much work will be
>     required of the user to create a VR? Where would the terminally
>     incompetent get their VRs?
>

> That last forms the baseline.  So line as there are VRs for even the 
> terminally incompetent, the more competent can afford to be lazy - 
> and, well, human nature tends toward laziness here.  Someone goes to 
> the effort of making a good, or at least acceptable, standard VR 
> interface that anyone can use, and many people use it.

Has anyone attempted that while using said system as their only mode of 
existence?

> Of course, users can put in as much work as they want. Note the amount 
> of effort that goes into building Minecraft worlds - even those that 
> are never seen by more than a few.  (Although, fame to those who both 
> make good product and share it widely; some small fortune to those who 
> figure out how to turn a profit without turning away most of their 
> audience.)

Yeah, those are impressive. But notice: they're all made from one meter 
cubes...
>
>     # How large of a VR would a user be allowed to build?
>

> That strongly depends on who's setting the limits - and why.  It may 
> well be that there are no limits, beyond how much hardware a user can 
> gather; that would be the case if today's laws were applied.

I don't think any moral person is proposing perpetuating today's laws. =\

>     # What limitations on creating sentient characters to populate the
>     VR? (this is obviously deeply problematic on many fronts).
>
>
> Again, who's setting the limits, and what's their agenda?  Again, if 
> today's laws were applied, there would be no limits.  Some may soon 
> come into effect once this happens, depending on how the legislators 
> come to learn of this...or it may be viewed as a modern form of 
> slavery without the drawbacks, if the sentient characters can simply 
> be programmed for loyalty and slave mentalities (or, more importantly, 
> if the legislators believe this to be the case).

Part one of my story raised some of those issues.

>     # What rights/limitations would a user have in a public VR?
>

> Depends entirely on who's paying for it, and their relationship to the 
> user.  Most likely it'd be akin to the rights/limitations people have 
> on any public property, including a limitation against trashing the 
> place (without special permit, which usually involves working for or 
> with the government).

I am not sure what you mean by "paying for it". I can't imagine anything 
akin to a conventional economy in a post-uploaded world because 99.9% of 
the uploads will have nothing of value to trade and will therefore 
starve to death if forced to participate in an economy.

>     # Would the user be guaranteed unalienable rights to exist and
>     communicate in public VRs?
>

> Depends on the local government, and whether they give similar rights 
> in meatspace.

Well, all local governments would have been obliterated along with their 
localities after Kurzweil's computronium shockwave annihilated them.
>
>     # Would private VR spaces be considered a natural right?
>

> Probably not, any more than homes are considered natural rights.  
> They're property, and it's a good thing if most people have one, but 
> this is distinct from a right to have one.  (Though it helps that 
> making an eyesore out of one's private VR does not impact other 
> peoples' private VRs.)

How about breathing? Remember, an upload cannot exist in any meaningful 
sense without a VR environment. So denying an upload access to VR is 
equivalent to denying it the right to exist.

>     # What limitations would there be on how a user manafests himself
>     in a public VR environment?
>

> Again, depends entirely on who's paying for it, and their relationship 
> to the user.  "Public VR" can be considered to be "VR that is owned 
> and operated by the government, which gives most people certain access 
> rights", similar to public roads today.

Well the system I was going to write about was governed by a piece of 
software called Protocol which would be designed to permit the entire 
upload-AI-VR mess to function at all but, unintentionally, introduced 
numerous, mostly insurmountable, limitations as to how one can chose to 
exist. On top of that would be implemented a system called Code, based 
loosely on the arguments of Lawrence Lesig. Basically it would implement 
the founder's idealized ethics as absolute laws. Most of the things 
actually worth doing would require you hack your way around 
well-intentioned edicts built into Code. Then there would be an explicit 
governing authority that would give the veneer of democracy and 
oversight but all the important decisions would be made by popular 
participants in certain specific cuddle-piles.

>     # What limitations would a user have on the type of avatar that
>     could be attached to his emulated humanoid nervous system?
>

> Same answer.

Can you address the technological challenges in actually implementing 
that? Every time I think about it I come to the conclusion that there 
are more dragons there than in Skyrim. =P

>     # Is there any alternative to the following mode of self
>     modification beyond basic tuning parameters:   --> You load a copy
>     of yourself from a backup made a few moments ago, modify it,
>     attempt to run it, if it seems to work, you then delete yourself.
>

> Yes.  Many alternatives:

> * You modify your currently running copy on the fly, without backup, 
> much like how self modification works today.  (More dangerous?  Yes.  
> Convenient and therefore used widely anyway?  Probably.  Safe enough 
> for small tweaks, so that "more dangerous" rarely applies in 
> practice?  Likely.  Does away with the "there are briefly two yous" 
> issue that some people might want to deal with? Yes.  And "this is 
> similar to how people have done it for a long time" is a compelling 
> factor for many people.  Of course, one can also copy a modification 
> that someone else tested on someone else, thus trusting that the 
> modification is probably safe for yourself too.)

Yeah, you can make certain shallow modifications that way, certainly 
parameter tuning, etc... But what about the assumptions built into the 
simulation software? What about massive architectual overhauls to the 
misshapen, fluoride rotted, lump of neurons you had when you were 
scanned? What about being conversions to operate a non-humanoid avatar? 
etc, etc, etc...

> * You run several such modifications at once.

Not sure what you mean.

> * You don't delete yourself, essentially forking for each modification.

Why would you want to fork in that manner, ever?

> * You run altered self in a simplified, sped up sim (sped up because 
> of the simplifications) and thereby evaluate long-term progress quickly.

Wouldn't the brain scan itself dominate all simulation time and hence 
couldn't be sped up any further than normal speeds? What would doing 
that really tell you?

> Are those enough?

No, you aren't even beginning to address the technological challenges 
implied by what you refer to so dismissively. =(


>     *** The current dominant theme, that of a heliocentric cloud of
>     computronium bricks seems to imply a central authority that, at
>     the very least, dictates communications protocols and orbital
>     configurations.
>

> Unless the protocols emerge by consensus, for lack of said authority 
> (much like how "international law" is not "what the single superpower  
> - USA - wants", but "what enough of the major countries of the world 
> agree on"), and orbital configurations likewise (though likely 
> recognizing orbitals already claimed in practice).

I can't imagine that this kind of scenario would ever develop naturally 
(because nobody would want to do it). It would either not happen or it 
would be imposed by some agency.

>     # What rights would the least privileged user to access base reality?
>
>
> The least privileged users might access base reality and nothing 
> else.  This is a common plot: the elites turn their attention to 
> spaces only they are aware of, and ignore the portion of reality that 
> is the entire reality for commoners.  VR vs. base reality is one 
> expression of this, as is a medieval tale of peasants whose only 
> exposure to war is when knights come through, demanding food and 
> shelter, until the lords on both sides - who had only thought to 
> defeat one another - suddenly have their "civilized" war interrupted 
> by a peasant revolt.

Well, if you had a right to base reality then you could quickly 
bootstrap that up to a right not to be uploaded... Which isn't what 
happens in this story.

>     *** Assume that the overwhelming majority of the population was
>     force-uploaded and re-answer the previous question.
>
>
> It changes depending on two things:
>
> * What noble aspirations the uploaders had when doing the 
> force-uploading and setting things up.
>
> * What that grinds down to, in day-to-day practice after a 
> sufficiently long period of time.
>
> Generally, why do the uploaders even care to run most people?

Mostly their own perverted sense of ethics.

>   Access to base reality likely costs at least minimal resources - 
> whose, and is this a large enough amount that anyone cares?

>     # Are there any problems with the following scenario: You detect a
>     problem that will inevitably cause a cascade failure across the
>     entire network but since you are on the ignore list of everyone
>     connected with the central authority you can't even report your
>     bug. The people in the central authority have been running human
>     emulated brain patterns for subjective thousands of years and have
>     become senile (due to the exhaustion of potential synapses between
>     their neurons), and complacent and refuse to even acknowledge the
>     possibility of such a problem... So basically everyone trapped in
>     this nightmare tried to go around the simulator with a count-down
>     clock to when everything would collapse hovering over their heads,
>     trying to warn the few who could actually do something about it,
>     until the clock reached zero and everything just stopped.
>

> Yes.  If many people are convinced of imminent demise, and the powers 
> that be can not be convinced to help - perhaps some people would be 
> content to give passive warnings as you describe, but someone is going 
> to try to take more action than that.

There is no James Bond solution to this. You are a simulation, not a 
person. The slightest misstep will cause the operating system to revoke 
your cycles and trigger a security scan of your "slab file"...

> Security crackers exist.  Exploits and social engineering exist.   If 
> the people in the central authority are indeed senile, that makes it 
> more likely that these things will develop, in time for those aware of 
> the problem to attempt a fix.  (Just last May, I was in a LARP about 
> essentially this very scenario.)

They spent 1,500 subjective years preparing for the "great uplift", 
making sure that the system, as a whole, was utterly unhackable. 
Furthermore, a successful hack would greatly endanger the 
thing/entity/blob of bits that carried out the hack for purely technical 
reasons.

> The bigger problem is assuming that everyone will act in the same way 
> - especially, in a way they have reason to believe will be utterly 
> ineffective (even if it does require little effort).  Over a large 
> enough population with the same concern, a wide variety of solutions
> will be attempted.

What choice do they have given that they are a simulation that exists in 
a way utterly dependent on the system that will inevitably kill them.

You could shackle someone or you could cut off their arms.

-- 
NOTICE: NEW E-MAIL ADDRESS, SEE ABOVE

Powers are not rights.



From spike at rainier66.com  Tue Jul 30 23:05:53 2013
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike)
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2013 16:05:53 -0700
Subject: [ExI] lists going quiet, was: RE: list test
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armhQE3c__UTz-aH_i2h7QR2XZXoHp3me3qZbU=zwzFCH=w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <019801ce8c6f$bbd9e180$338da480$@rainier66.com>
 <51F8092F.9020309@aleph.se>
 <CAL_armhQE3c__UTz-aH_i2h7QR2XZXoHp3me3qZbU=zwzFCH=w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <001d01ce8d79$58103720$0830a560$@rainier66.com>

>... On Behalf Of BillK
...

>...email is for old folk, as the saying goes. So you won't find many
youngsters in email forums...

Ja, the young kids are now hanging out on that new thing, the "internets"
these days. There are a few of us hep-cats still around. 

>...There are some, of course! :) But I fear that thoughts over 140
characters in length are TLDR for the next generation... BillK

HAAAAAA!  We geezers have a HUUUUGE advantage.  Remember when we were lads,
we had variations on the meaning of words that formed our own secret code,
that only the young and hip understood.  Now the young CAN'T GO THERE
anymore, they CAN'T keep secrets away from us, haaaaaahahahhahaaaa, because
WE have the URBAN DICTIONARY at our fingertips, so we know that TLDR means
Too Long, Didn't Read.  Oh man, now I can be as hip as those young cats, and
be in the groove with them, perhaps even talk their jive, like Barbara
Billingsley in Airplane.

spike




From atymes at gmail.com  Tue Jul 30 23:11:41 2013
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2013 16:11:41 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Digital Jeeves
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armiktx_tBXBnUSO_DSsC5g+LGn5ey+cLCTvvX2Yuk53P5g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <201307301317.r6UDGoFU014259@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <CALAdGNR7ejQ7EvvY14hN5o+Em1i1vtyA5Es_uXJEb+k9mPYgcw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armiktx_tBXBnUSO_DSsC5g+LGn5ey+cLCTvvX2Yuk53P5g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNQcku=_b4vzwE8q+OJgudufOGd7h_VPFL2q4dcQLPYd8w@mail.gmail.com>

On Jul 30, 2013 10:05 AM, "BillK" <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 5:46 PM, Adrian Tymes  wrote:
> > Careful about that "guilty until proven innocent".  It's a very small
step
> > from there to, for example, holding their manufacturers responsible for
> > monitoring your house 24/7 even if they never agreed to it, and thus to
> > holding them liable should a burglary occur and the police weren't
> > immediately called.
> >
> > Some digital Jeeveses could be spying on you.  The potential is there.
> > That's different from relying on them to do so.
>
> 'potential?????  Is 83% potential enough?
>
> <
http://www.darkreading.com/applications/report-83-of-mobile-apps-are-risky/240159151
>
>
>  Highlights from the App Reputation Report are:
>
> ? Overall, 83% of the most popular apps are associated with security
> risks and privacy issues.

That means 83% could be doing that.  How many of them actually are?  More
than none, but less than all.  A far greater cause of there being security
risks and privacy issues is mere laziness: there are no eyeballs watching a
particular camera, and there never will be, even if you don't know which
one that is.

It is safe to plan for the negatives of if they all are, true.  But there
are a few positives to being watched...and you can't count on them to watch
you at any given moment either.
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From dan_ust at yahoo.com  Tue Jul 30 23:50:52 2013
From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan)
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2013 16:50:52 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] FTL question
In-Reply-To: <470921FC-ECB3-479A-94E2-31AA092FCBB0@michaeldevault.com>
References: <470921FC-ECB3-479A-94E2-31AA092FCBB0@michaeldevault.com>
Message-ID: <1375228252.96424.YahooMailNeo@web126203.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

Anyone here care to answer? I'll post your reply back to A2. Thanks!


----- Forwarded Message -----
From: Michael DeVault <me at michaeldevault.com>
To: Atlantis II II <atlantis_II at yahoogroups.com> 
Sent: Sunday, July 28, 2013 5:10 PM
Subject: [atlantis_II] FTL question
 


? 
Does anyone know if an Albecurie drive violates causality?
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From msd001 at gmail.com  Wed Jul 31 01:04:51 2013
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2013 21:04:51 -0400
Subject: [ExI] FTL question
In-Reply-To: <1375228252.96424.YahooMailNeo@web126203.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <470921FC-ECB3-479A-94E2-31AA092FCBB0@michaeldevault.com>
 <1375228252.96424.YahooMailNeo@web126203.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAOJFdbJkpnjsOTeaHVpX6W53aGRwA_WfOL_RD4b50rWiFR3UwQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 7:50 PM, Dan <dan_ust at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Anyone here care to answer? I'll post your reply back to A2. Thanks!

With a subject of "FTL question" and "Anyone care to answer" I thought
you were making a joke about how we'd all provide the answers then
you'd post the question and see who among us is correct.  :)


From gts_2000 at yahoo.com  Wed Jul 31 01:35:26 2013
From: gts_2000 at yahoo.com (Gordon)
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2013 18:35:26 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [ExI] lists going quiet, was:  RE:  list test
In-Reply-To: <51F8092F.9020309@aleph.se>
References: <019801ce8c6f$bbd9e180$338da480$@rainier66.com>
 <51F8092F.9020309@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <1375234526.99032.YahooMailNeo@web121202.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

Anders Sandberg <anders at aleph.se> wrote:


>* Natural loss of old members...

Speaking of this, where is Damien? He was pretty active back in the day, and was still active about five years ago before I took a long hiatus. I have not seen him since I started paying attention again to ExI a few months ago.

Gordon
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From atymes at gmail.com  Wed Jul 31 02:12:26 2013
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2013 19:12:26 -0700
Subject: [ExI] FTL question
In-Reply-To: <1375228252.96424.YahooMailNeo@web126203.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <470921FC-ECB3-479A-94E2-31AA092FCBB0@michaeldevault.com>
 <1375228252.96424.YahooMailNeo@web126203.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNTFbJ6PfWcZRLH_pfstwt3kBRNcXn=pPQYnrUNY-NSbYg@mail.gmail.com>

To the best of my knowledge, it does not.  It is more accurate to say that
it potentially accelerates the speed at which causality can propagate,
along the direction it travels.

For example, let us take points A and B, one light second apart.  A
spaceship with a warp drive starts at A, quickly (for sake of discussion,
close enough to "instantly") comes up to speed, then arrives at B less than
a second later as a direct result.

This does not violate causality.  In the reference frames of both points,
there was a cause (the engine activating) and then there was an effect (the
ship arriving at B), even if B might not receive the light detailing the
cause until after the effect happened.  (Which is to say, causality
propagated faster than light.)


On Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 4:50 PM, Dan <dan_ust at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Anyone here care to answer? I'll post your reply back to A2. Thanks!
>
>   ----- Forwarded Message -----
>  *From:* Michael DeVault <me at michaeldevault.com>
> *To:* Atlantis II II <atlantis_II at yahoogroups.com>
> *Sent:* Sunday, July 28, 2013 5:10 PM
> *Subject:* [atlantis_II] FTL question
>
>
>  Does anyone know if an Albecurie drive violates causality?
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From atymes at gmail.com  Wed Jul 31 03:03:59 2013
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2013 20:03:59 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Story part 2 yet again.
In-Reply-To: <51F81D12.5020407@verizon.net>
References: <51ECCD2C.2020203@verizon.net>
 <CALAdGNT1xshK_cDMEZmoc_G4TRbZRsgGYEzk5i76qxwn3BHc3Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <51F81D12.5020407@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNR7oK6XTByA2zD+dDGzOWj2LzZq6v-tWPxpW=1VcAKS=g@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 1:07 PM, Alan Grimes <ALONZOTG at verizon.net> wrote:

> Don't take this the wrong way, I'm trying to give you some constructive
> feedback.
>

Odd - you seemed to be the one wanting feedback.  Anyway...


> Adrian Tymes wrote:
>
>> On Sun, Jul 21, 2013 at 11:11 PM, Alan Grimes <ALONZOTG at verizon.net<mailto:
>> ALONZOTG at verizon.net>> wrote:
>>
>>     # How will VR environments be provisioned? How much work will be
>>     required of the user to create a VR? Where would the terminally
>>     incompetent get their VRs?
>>
>
>  That last forms the baseline.  So line as there are VRs for even the
>> terminally incompetent, the more competent can afford to be lazy - and,
>> well, human nature tends toward laziness here.  Someone goes to the effort
>> of making a good, or at least acceptable, standard VR interface that anyone
>> can use, and many people use it.
>>
>
> Has anyone attempted that while using said system as their only mode of
> existence?
>

No, because that's a chicken and egg problem.  How do you provision, or get
something provisioned for you, if you do not yet exist?  How can anyone
know whether you are terminally incompetent in such a state?

"Where would the terminally incompetent get their VRs?" implies said
terminally incompetents have some mode of existence other than VR, in which
to seek VR.


>  Of course, users can put in as much work as they want. Note the amount of
>> effort that goes into building Minecraft worlds - even those that are never
>> seen by more than a few.  (Although, fame to those who both make good
>> product and share it widely; some small fortune to those who figure out how
>> to turn a profit without turning away most of their audience.)
>>
>
> Yeah, those are impressive. But notice: they're all made from one meter
> cubes...
>

Yep.  Much more fame potential to those who work with more refined
materials.


>      # How large of a VR would a user be allowed to build?
>>
>>  That strongly depends on who's setting the limits - and why.  It may
>> well be that there are no limits, beyond how much hardware a user can
>> gather; that would be the case if today's laws were applied.
>>
>
> I don't think any moral person is proposing perpetuating today's laws. =\
>

Define "moral person".  I believe the majority of people in existence today
would, by default, seek to perpetuate today's laws - possibly with minor
modifications, but close enough that you and I would call them essentially
today's laws.  So your statement only holds true if the majority of people
in existence today are not "moral people" - which limits the utility of
that declaration.

While we might hope otherwise, and even work to prevent it, the fact is,
those who will be in charge will not necessarily have morals you and I
might agree with.


>      # What rights/limitations would a user have in a public VR?
>>
>
>  Depends entirely on who's paying for it, and their relationship to the
>> user.  Most likely it'd be akin to the rights/limitations people have on
>> any public property, including a limitation against trashing the place
>> (without special permit, which usually involves working for or with the
>> government).
>>
>
> I am not sure what you mean by "paying for it". I can't imagine anything
> akin to a conventional economy in a post-uploaded world because 99.9% of
> the uploads will have nothing of value to trade and will therefore starve
> to death if forced to participate in an economy.
>

Even outside of a conventional economy - VR runs on computers which run on
energy.  Where does this energy come from?  Who handles protecting the
computers from external debris, and/or repairing the computers?  Who
handles expanding the hardware base?

These people have access to base reality.  These people have the power to
unplug the VR, or to make physical edits to the memory it runs in.  Perhaps
these people pay for their power with labor, or perhaps they are paid by
others who govern.  Who prevents these workers - who, again, are in base
reality - from destroying nodes that displease them?


>      # Would the user be guaranteed unalienable rights to exist and
>>     communicate in public VRs?
>>
>
>  Depends on the local government, and whether they give similar rights in
>> meatspace.
>>
>
> Well, all local governments would have been obliterated along with their
> localities after Kurzweil's computronium shockwave annihilated them.
>

"Local" refers to the VRs, in this case.


>      # Would private VR spaces be considered a natural right?
>>
>
>  Probably not, any more than homes are considered natural rights.  They're
>> property, and it's a good thing if most people have one, but this is
>> distinct from a right to have one.  (Though it helps that making an eyesore
>> out of one's private VR does not impact other peoples' private VRs.)
>>
>
> How about breathing? Remember, an upload cannot exist in any meaningful
> sense without a VR environment. So denying an upload access to VR is
> equivalent to denying it the right to exist.
>

Actually, an upload could be shelled out to base reality: put in a robot
that (until someone - possibly its operator - tinkers with it) can only see
and interact with the unsimulated world.


>     # What limitations would a user have on the type of avatar that
>>     could be attached to his emulated humanoid nervous system?
>>
>
>  Same answer.
>>
>
> Can you address the technological challenges in actually implementing
> that? Every time I think about it I come to the conclusion that there are
> more dragons there than in Skyrim. =P
>

You're talking uploads, right?  Tweak their nervous system equivalents.


>      # Is there any alternative to the following mode of self
>>     modification beyond basic tuning parameters:   --> You load a copy
>>     of yourself from a backup made a few moments ago, modify it,
>>     attempt to run it, if it seems to work, you then delete yourself.
>>
>
>  Yes.  Many alternatives:
>>
>
>  * You modify your currently running copy on the fly, without backup, much
>> like how self modification works today.  (More dangerous?  Yes.  Convenient
>> and therefore used widely anyway?  Probably.  Safe enough for small tweaks,
>> so that "more dangerous" rarely applies in practice?  Likely.  Does away
>> with the "there are briefly two yous" issue that some people might want to
>> deal with? Yes.  And "this is similar to how people have done it for a long
>> time" is a compelling factor for many people.  Of course, one can also copy
>> a modification that someone else tested on someone else, thus trusting that
>> the modification is probably safe for yourself too.)
>>
>
> Yeah, you can make certain shallow modifications that way, certainly
> parameter tuning, etc... But what about the assumptions built into the
> simulation software? What about massive architectual overhauls to the
> misshapen, fluoride rotted, lump of neurons you had when you were scanned?
> What about being conversions to operate a non-humanoid avatar? etc, etc,
> etc...
>

The first one is not "self" modification, in the scenario you're setting up.

The second can, in theory, be done the same way.  No matter how unwise or
dangerous or suicidal it may seem, it can be attempted.

The third only matters if the simulation software has limits against that
sort of thing...which, if it's simulating down to the level you suggest, it
probably does not.


>  * You run several such modifications at once.
>>
>
> Not sure what you mean.
>

Test several modifications at the same time.  Only give extended runtime to
the one that works best.  (You asked for alternatives to testing just one
modification at a time.)


>  * You don't delete yourself, essentially forking for each modification.
>>
>
> Why would you want to fork in that manner, ever?
>

Ah - different sense of "you" here.  You and I, the specific people, would
not.  You and I are far, far, far from everyone who has ever existed.
"You", as in some other people, might want to do that.  Heck, there are
plenty of people who would fork themselves with no modification; there are
tales going back to ancient times of people wishing for that exact thing.
(And in those fictions where they got their wish, not all of them regretted
it.)


> * You run altered self in a simplified, sped up sim (sped up because of
>> the simplifications) and thereby evaluate long-term progress quickly.
>>
>
> Wouldn't the brain scan itself dominate all simulation time and hence
> couldn't be sped up any further than normal speeds? What would doing that
> really tell you?
>

That's why I said "simplified": not all aspects are in play.  Now, whether
you trust that to be an accurate test is another thing...but your original
scenario involved brief testing in the full-up environment, and you can
never be certain that insanity or a sudden halt does not lurk just a little
longer than you tested, so it's not like that provided 100% test coverage
either.

 Are those enough?
>>
>
> No, you aren't even beginning to address the technological challenges
> implied by what you refer to so dismissively. =(
>

Dude, seriously.  You asked for "any" alternatives, I provided some.
Doesn't matter if they fully address things, they are alternatives.

And where do you get off thinking I'm being dismissive?  Show some respect
to people who are helping you when you ask for help, or people are less
likely to help you in the future.


>     *** The current dominant theme, that of a heliocentric cloud of
>
>>     computronium bricks seems to imply a central authority that, at
>>     the very least, dictates communications protocols and orbital
>>     configurations.
>>
>
>  Unless the protocols emerge by consensus, for lack of said authority
>> (much like how "international law" is not "what the single superpower  -
>> USA - wants", but "what enough of the major countries of the world agree
>> on"), and orbital configurations likewise (though likely recognizing
>> orbitals already claimed in practice).
>>
>
> I can't imagine that this kind of scenario would ever develop naturally
> (because nobody would want to do it). It would either not happen or it
> would be imposed by some agency.
>

You just contradicted yourself.  If some agency imposed it, then that
agency wanted to do it.

Further, you later say that those in charge are motivated by their ethics.
If one group is so motivated, why not multiple groups?  Multiple,
independent groups that perhaps started locally and never did agree on
everything.

Much like how countries and legal systems were founded around the world,
and the world has not yet merged under a single government.  (No matter how
much influence certain entities have over how large an area, for any
specific entity, there is a non-zero portion of Earth's surface over which
it has no jurisdiction, directly or otherwise.)

     *** Assume that the overwhelming majority of the population was
>>     force-uploaded and re-answer the previous question.
>>
>> It changes depending on two things:
>>
>> * What noble aspirations the uploaders had when doing the force-uploading
>> and setting things up.
>>
>> * What that grinds down to, in day-to-day practice after a sufficiently
>> long period of time.
>>
>> Generally, why do the uploaders even care to run most people?
>>
>
> Mostly their own perverted sense of ethics.
>

And what does that shake down to, day-to-day?  How big of a monkeysphere do
they manage, and what happens to everyone who isn't in it?


> There is no James Bond solution to this. You are a simulation, not a
> person. The slightest misstep will cause the operating system to revoke
> your cycles and trigger a security scan of your "slab file"...
>

Assuming the operating system, or its operators, registers a misstep.

If you had a "perfect" system, the operators couldn't get senile in the
first place.  (Or if they did, the operating system itself would flag their
failure to act on foreseeable harm as errant, and revoke their cycles -
and, of course, promote & train someone else to take over, the OS being
"perfect".)

Since that safeguard isn't present, by definition there is at least one way
to sneak harm through.  And if there is one, there are probably more.


>  Security crackers exist.  Exploits and social engineering exist.   If the
>> people in the central authority are indeed senile, that makes it more
>> likely that these things will develop, in time for those aware of the
>> problem to attempt a fix.  (Just last May, I was in a LARP about
>> essentially this very scenario.)
>>
>
> They spent 1,500 subjective years preparing for the "great uplift", making
> sure that the system, as a whole, was utterly unhackable. Furthermore, a
> successful hack would greatly endanger the thing/entity/blob of bits that
> carried out the hack for purely technical reasons.
>

And then they got senile.  That leads to messing up, no matter how crazy
prepared they used to be.

China, arguably, spent more time than that preparing to dominate the
world...and got their rears handed to them in World War II, as a capstone
to the preceding century.
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From spike at rainier66.com  Wed Jul 31 04:28:08 2013
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike)
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2013 21:28:08 -0700
Subject: [ExI] lists going quiet, was:  RE:  list test
In-Reply-To: <1375234526.99032.YahooMailNeo@web121202.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <019801ce8c6f$bbd9e180$338da480$@rainier66.com>
 <51F8092F.9020309@aleph.se>
 <1375234526.99032.YahooMailNeo@web121202.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <00e201ce8da6$5c9c0760$15d41620$@rainier66.com>

 

From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Gordon
Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2013 6:35 PM
To: ExI chat list
Subject: Re: [ExI] lists going quiet, was: RE: list test

 

Anders Sandberg <anders at aleph.se> wrote:

 

>* Natural loss of old members...


Speaking of this, where is Damien? He was pretty active back in the day, and
was still active about five years ago before I took a long hiatus. I have
not seen him since I started paying attention again to ExI a few months ago.

 

Gordon

 

 

He needed a break from us for a while.  I have been worried.  I sent him a
Newtonmas card and it came back undeliverable.  Last I posted to him was
about October.

 

spike   

 

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From anders at aleph.se  Wed Jul 31 05:49:29 2013
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2013 07:49:29 +0200
Subject: [ExI] FTL question
In-Reply-To: <1375228252.96424.YahooMailNeo@web126203.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <470921FC-ECB3-479A-94E2-31AA092FCBB0@michaeldevault.com>
 <1375228252.96424.YahooMailNeo@web126203.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <51F8A569.3020208@aleph.se>

On 2013-07-31 01:50, Dan wrote:
> Anyone here care to answer? I'll post your reply back to A2. Thanks!

Short answer: AFAIK, yes, the drive does allow causality violations.

Middle answer: As the saying goes, "FTL, causality, relativity - choose 
two". Any method that allows you to get outside your own lightcone in a 
asymptotically flat spacetime (wormholes, warp drives, teleportation) 
allows sending messages into the past due to the non-Lorenz invariance 
of event ordering outside lighcones.

Long answer: Everett, Allen E. (15 June 1996). "Warp drive and 
causality". Physical Review D 53 (12): 7365?7368 shows that you can get 
closed timelike loops in the Alcubierre spacetime, and that allows you 
to send information back in time, messing with normal notions of causality.

You can still save some of it by arguing for the Novikov 
self-consistency principle ( 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novikov_self-consistency_principle ): 
inconsistent states have zero probability amplitude. But as Scott 
Aaronson and others have proven, in such worlds you still get awesome 
computation power from CTCs and there P=NP. So many would say they are 
weird enough to look noncausal.

There is also the problem that the basic drive spacetime doesn't contain 
a creation and endpoint of the drive field. Krasnikov has shown that it 
is generally impossible to whip up such a field and turn it off (S. V. 
Krasnikov, ?Hyper-fast Interstellar Travel in General Relativity,? Phys. 
Rev. D 57, 4760 (1998) [arXiv:gr-qc/9511068]) but round-trips (and hence 
CTCs) are possible.


-- 
Anders Sandberg
Future of Humanity Institute
Oxford University


From anders at aleph.se  Wed Jul 31 05:51:18 2013
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2013 07:51:18 +0200
Subject: [ExI] lists going quiet, was:  RE:  list test
In-Reply-To: <1375234526.99032.YahooMailNeo@web121202.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <019801ce8c6f$bbd9e180$338da480$@rainier66.com>
 <51F8092F.9020309@aleph.se>
 <1375234526.99032.YahooMailNeo@web121202.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <51F8A5D6.4080200@aleph.se>

On 2013-07-31 03:35, Gordon wrote:
> Anders Sandberg <anders at aleph.se> wrote:
>
>>* Natural loss of old members...
>
> Speaking of this, where is Damien? He was pretty active back in the day,
> and was still active about five years ago before I took a long hiatus. I
> have not seen him since I started paying attention again to ExI a few
> months ago.

He is certainly around, editing books and asking me for cover 
illustrations. Right now I am writing a chapter for a book he is editing 
on uploads and AI.

He is just not around *here*.


-- 
Anders Sandberg
Future of Humanity Institute
Oxford University


From eugen at leitl.org  Wed Jul 31 06:43:57 2013
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2013 08:43:57 +0200
Subject: [ExI] lists going quiet, was:  RE:  list test
In-Reply-To: <51F8092F.9020309@aleph.se>
References: <019801ce8c6f$bbd9e180$338da480$@rainier66.com>
 <51F8092F.9020309@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <20130731064357.GR29404@leitl.org>

On Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 08:42:55PM +0200, Anders Sandberg wrote:

> I think the darknet explanation ("virtual Galt's Gulch scenario"?)
> is unlikely, since so few people use darknets at present. They

There is no other option to darknets.

> suffer exactly from the critical mass problem I described: unless a
> group moves en masse into it, they will have a tendency to (1) have
> fewer participants, (2) it is harder to find other or new
> participants. So I would predict that at present if the elite is
> using darknets, they are not getting that much good discussion going
> (outside some small groups - having some burning shared interest,
> typically illegal or subversive, can be a good motivator). In fact,
> if you want to ignite a big online discussion you do not want to put
> it on a darknet, since you want to broadcast it as widely as
> possible. Nyms are more important than darknets, IMHO.

Nyms are no longer possible on the wider Internet.
When I said that there are no other options to darknets,
I wasn't kidding.


From eugen at leitl.org  Wed Jul 31 07:07:01 2013
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2013 09:07:01 +0200
Subject: [ExI] lists going quiet, was: RE: list test
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armhQE3c__UTz-aH_i2h7QR2XZXoHp3me3qZbU=zwzFCH=w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <019801ce8c6f$bbd9e180$338da480$@rainier66.com>
 <51F8092F.9020309@aleph.se>
 <CAL_armhQE3c__UTz-aH_i2h7QR2XZXoHp3me3qZbU=zwzFCH=w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20130731070700.GT29404@leitl.org>

On Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 08:18:05PM +0100, BillK wrote:

> When you walk through the town, look around and you will see most
> people are staring at a smartphone, or talking to a smartphone or
> listening to a smartphone. It is a change in lifestyle. Their life is
> full up with communicating. This is the first generation that chats
> continually with someone, *anyone*, to stop the feeling of being
> alone.

Speaking about smartphones: 
http://shadowdcatconsulting.com/blog/2013/2/13/guardian-rom-secure-android-rom.html

http://www.wilderssecurity.com/showthread.php?t=348416

Still wide open to baseband processor attack, but it's a first
step into the right direction. 


From atymes at gmail.com  Wed Jul 31 07:27:43 2013
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2013 00:27:43 -0700
Subject: [ExI] lists going quiet, was: RE: list test
In-Reply-To: <20130731064357.GR29404@leitl.org>
References: <019801ce8c6f$bbd9e180$338da480$@rainier66.com>
 <51F8092F.9020309@aleph.se> <20130731064357.GR29404@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNRyyfN98R0ZR6vBzhFe=hGXgOQZSQjNdjvOCWTuUgDkVQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 11:43 PM, Eugen Leitl <eugen at leitl.org> wrote:

> On Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 08:42:55PM +0200, Anders Sandberg wrote:
> > I think the darknet explanation ("virtual Galt's Gulch scenario"?)
> > is unlikely, since so few people use darknets at present. They
>
> There is no other option to darknets.
>

And darknets fail too, because you wind up doing nothing by yourself.

Bummer, isn't it?
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From anders at aleph.se  Wed Jul 31 08:56:40 2013
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2013 10:56:40 +0200
Subject: [ExI] lists going quiet, was:  RE:  list test
In-Reply-To: <20130731064357.GR29404@leitl.org>
References: <019801ce8c6f$bbd9e180$338da480$@rainier66.com>
 <51F8092F.9020309@aleph.se> <20130731064357.GR29404@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <51F8D148.8070005@aleph.se>

On 2013-07-31 08:43, Eugen Leitl wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 08:42:55PM +0200, Anders Sandberg wrote:
>> In fact,
>> if you want to ignite a big online discussion you do not want to put
>> it on a darknet, since you want to broadcast it as widely as
>> possible. Nyms are more important than darknets, IMHO.
>
> Nyms are no longer possible on the wider Internet.
> When I said that there are no other options to darknets,
> I wasn't kidding.

In that case it looks like public policy will be influenced only by 
those mainstream, brave or stupid enough to do it publicly.

A critical mass "darknet elite" might of course try to spread memes and 
ideas they have discussed internally, but doing so makes them vulnerable 
to tracking through their overt posts (check the work at HP information 
dynamics... who incidentally sold a lot of work to China for net 
monitoring, if I don't misremember). A below critical mass "darknet 
elite" will be intellectually ineffectual. Getting everybody onto 
darknets is about as easy as getting them to adopt a new Internet protocol.




-- 
Anders Sandberg
Future of Humanity Institute
Oxford University


From eugen at leitl.org  Wed Jul 31 10:00:18 2013
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2013 12:00:18 +0200
Subject: [ExI] lists going quiet, was: RE: list test
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNRyyfN98R0ZR6vBzhFe=hGXgOQZSQjNdjvOCWTuUgDkVQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <019801ce8c6f$bbd9e180$338da480$@rainier66.com>
 <51F8092F.9020309@aleph.se> <20130731064357.GR29404@leitl.org>
 <CALAdGNRyyfN98R0ZR6vBzhFe=hGXgOQZSQjNdjvOCWTuUgDkVQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20130731100018.GU29404@leitl.org>

On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 12:27:43AM -0700, Adrian Tymes wrote:

> > There is no other option to darknets.
> >
> 
> And darknets fail too, because you wind up doing nothing by yourself.

Speak for yourself. The two darknet projects I'm associated with
get a lot of work done. None of my nontechnical/community mailing
lists (including this one) get any work done. 
 
> Bummer, isn't it?

That attitude appears a self-fullfilling prophecy.
No, I'm not ready to sit there wringing limp-wristed
hands in my lap. There's work to be done, see you there.


From eugen at leitl.org  Wed Jul 31 13:08:31 2013
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2013 15:08:31 +0200
Subject: [ExI] lists going quiet, was:  RE:  list test
In-Reply-To: <51F8D148.8070005@aleph.se>
References: <019801ce8c6f$bbd9e180$338da480$@rainier66.com>
 <51F8092F.9020309@aleph.se> <20130731064357.GR29404@leitl.org>
 <51F8D148.8070005@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <20130731130831.GV29404@leitl.org>

On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 10:56:40AM +0200, Anders Sandberg wrote:

> In that case it looks like public policy will be influenced only by
> those mainstream, brave or stupid enough to do it publicly.

Yes, but there are cases where this doesn't matter. Many of
us see whitewater ahead, such things are disruptive.
The coming policy changes could well be largely reactive,
and progressively lacking traction as ability to enforce
them is unraveling.

Critical mass (~10% of the population) does not apply to
tool-making, which can amplify to planetary scale (while we
still working telecommunication networks, which are also
tools), and require no credit given.
 
> A critical mass "darknet elite" might of course try to spread memes
> and ideas they have discussed internally, but doing so makes them

Ideas are nice, but you need more than that if you want to get
things done.

> vulnerable to tracking through their overt posts (check the work at

It is still useful to project a public persona, and be it just
a tool of recruitment. Darknets are the dark matter of the Internet,
and not directly visible.

> HP information dynamics... who incidentally sold a lot of work to
> China for net monitoring, if I don't misremember). A below critical
> mass "darknet elite" will be intellectually ineffectual. Getting
> everybody onto darknets is about as easy as getting them to adopt a
> new Internet protocol.

Several darknets run on new protocols which can run on your own
infrascture or tunnel across legacy protocols. We already know
that IPv6 as is is not the answer, despite nice growth kinetics
like http://www.google.com/intl/en/ipv6/statistics.html

At least IPv6 is a facilitator for alternative protocols, due
to enhanced end to end reachability and potential for larger payloads.


From eugen at leitl.org  Wed Jul 31 15:16:17 2013
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2013 17:16:17 +0200
Subject: [ExI] [info] XKeyscore: NSA tool collects 'nearly everything a user
 does on the internet'
Message-ID: <20130731151617.GE29404@leitl.org>


http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/31/nsa-top-secret-program-online-data

XKeyscore: NSA tool collects 'nearly everything a user does on the internet'

? XKeyscore gives 'widest-reaching' collection of online data

? NSA analysts require no prior authorization for searches

? Sweeps up emails, social media activity and browsing history

? NSA's XKeyscore program ? read one of the presentations

Glenn Greenwald

theguardian.com, Wednesday 31 July 2013 13.56 BST

XKeyscore map

One presentation claims the XKeyscore program covers 'nearly everything a
typical user does on the internet'

A top secret National Security Agency program allows analysts to search with
no prior authorization through vast databases containing emails, online chats
and the browsing histories of millions of individuals, according to documents
provided by whistleblower Edward Snowden.

The NSA boasts in training materials that the program, called XKeyscore, is
its "widest-reaching" system for developing intelligence from the internet.

The latest revelations will add to the intense public and congressional
debate around the extent of NSA surveillance programs. They come as senior
intelligence officials testify to the Senate judiciary committee on
Wednesday, releasing classified documents in response to the Guardian's
earlier stories on bulk collection of phone records and Fisa surveillance
court oversight.

The files shed light on one of Snowden's most controversial statements, made
in his first video interview published by the Guardian on June 10.

"I, sitting at my desk," said Snowden, could "wiretap anyone, from you or
your accountant, to a federal judge or even the president, if I had a
personal email".

US officials vehemently denied this specific claim. Mike Rogers, the
Republican chairman of the House intelligence committee, said of Snowden's
assertion: "He's lying. It's impossible for him to do what he was saying he
could do."

But training materials for XKeyscore detail how analysts can use it and other
systems to mine enormous agency databases by filling in a simple on-screen
form giving only a broad justification for the search. The request is not
reviewed by a court or any NSA personnel before it is processed.

XKeyscore, the documents boast, is the NSA's "widest reaching" system
developing intelligence from computer networks ? what the agency calls
Digital Network Intelligence (DNI). One presentation claims the program
covers "nearly everything a typical user does on the internet", including the
content of emails, websites visited and searches, as well as their metadata.

Analysts can also use XKeyscore and other NSA systems to obtain ongoing
"real-time" interception of an individual's internet activity.

Under US law, the NSA is required to obtain an individualized Fisa warrant
only if the target of their surveillance is a 'US person', though no such
warrant is required for intercepting the communications of Americans with
foreign targets. But XKeyscore provides the technological capability, if not
the legal authority, to target even US persons for extensive electronic
surveillance without a warrant provided that some identifying information,
such as their email or IP address, is known to the analyst.

One training slide illustrates the digital activity constantly being
collected by XKeyscore and the analyst's ability to query the databases at
any time.

KS1

The purpose of XKeyscore is to allow analysts to search the metadata as well
as the content of emails and other internet activity, such as browser
history, even when there is no known email account (a "selector" in NSA
parlance) associated with the individual being targeted.

Analysts can also search by name, telephone number, IP address, keywords, the
language in which the internet activity was conducted or the type of browser
used.

One document notes that this is because "strong selection [search by email
address] itself gives us only a very limited capability" because "a large
amount of time spent on the web is performing actions that are anonymous."

The NSA documents assert that by 2008, 300 terrorists had been captured using
intelligence from XKeyscore.

Analysts are warned that searching the full database for content will yield
too many results to sift through. Instead they are advised to use the
metadata also stored in the databases to narrow down what to review.

A slide entitled "plug-ins" in a December 2012 document describes the various
fields of information that can be searched. It includes "every email address
seen in a session by both username and domain", "every phone number seen in a
session (eg address book entries or signature block)" and user activity ?
"the webmail and chat activity to include username, buddylist, machine
specific cookies etc".

Email monitoring

In a second Guardian interview in June, Snowden elaborated on his statement
about being able to read any individual's email if he had their email
address. He said the claim was based in part on the email search capabilities
of XKeyscore, which Snowden says he was authorized to use while working as a
Booz Allen contractor for the NSA.

One top-secret document describes how the program "searches within bodies of
emails, webpages and documents", including the "To, From, CC, BCC lines" and
the 'Contact Us' pages on websites".

To search for emails, an analyst using XKS enters the individual's email
address into a simple online search form, along with the "justification" for
the search and the time period for which the emails are sought.

KS2

KS3edit

The analyst then selects which of those returned emails they want to read by
opening them in NSA reading software.

The system is similar to the way in which NSA analysts generally can
intercept the communications of anyone they select, including, as one NSA
document put it, "communications that transit the United States and
communications that terminate in the United States".

One document, a top secret 2010 guide describing the training received by NSA
analysts for general surveillance under the Fisa Amendments Act of 2008,
explains that analysts can begin surveillance on anyone by clicking a few
simple pull-down menus designed to provide both legal and targeting
justifications. Once options on the pull-down menus are selected, their
target is marked for electronic surveillance and the analyst is able to
review the content of their communications:

KS4

Chats, browsing history and other internet activity

Beyond emails, the XKeyscore system allows analysts to monitor a virtually
unlimited array of other internet activities, including those within social
media.

An NSA tool called DNI Presenter, used to read the content of stored emails,
also enables an analyst using XKeyscore to read the content of Facebook chats
or private messages.

KS5

An analyst can monitor such Facebook chats by entering the Facebook user name
and a date range into a simple search screen.

KS6

Analysts can search for internet browsing activities using a wide range of
information, including search terms entered by the user or the websites
viewed.

KS7

As one slide indicates, the ability to search HTTP activity by keyword
permits the analyst access to what the NSA calls "nearly everything a typical
user does on the internet".

KS8

The XKeyscore program also allows an analyst to learn the IP addresses of
every person who visits any website the analyst specifies.

KS9

The quantity of communications accessible through programs such as XKeyscore
is staggeringly large. One NSA report from 2007 estimated that there were
850bn "call events" collected and stored in the NSA databases, and close to
150bn internet records. Each day, the document says, 1-2bn records were
added.

William Binney, a former NSA mathematician, said last year that the agency
had "assembled on the order of 20tn transactions about US citizens with other
US citizens", an estimate, he said, that "only was involving phone calls and
emails". A 2010 Washington Post article reported that "every day, collection
systems at the [NSA] intercept and store 1.7bn emails, phone calls and other
type of communications."

The XKeyscore system is continuously collecting so much internet data that it
can be stored only for short periods of time. Content remains on the system
for only three to five days, while metadata is stored for 30 days. One
document explains: "At some sites, the amount of data we receive per day (20+
terabytes) can only be stored for as little as 24 hours."

To solve this problem, the NSA has created a multi-tiered system that allows
analysts to store "interesting" content in other databases, such as one named
Pinwale which can store material for up to five years. 

It is the databases of XKeyscore, one document shows, that now contain the
greatest amount of communications data collected by the NSA.

KS10

In 2012, there were at least 41 billion total records collected and stored in
XKeyscore for a single 30-day period.

KS11

Legal v technical restrictions

While the Fisa Amendments Act of 2008 requires an individualized warrant for
the targeting of US persons, NSA analysts are permitted to intercept the
communications of such individuals without a warrant if they are in contact
with one of the NSA's foreign targets.

The ACLU's deputy legal director, Jameel Jaffer, told the Guardian last month
that national security officials expressly said that a primary purpose of the
new law was to enable them to collect large amounts of Americans'
communications without individualized warrants.

"The government doesn't need to 'target' Americans in order to collect huge
volumes of their communications," said Jaffer. "The government inevitably
sweeps up the communications of many Americans" when targeting foreign
nationals for surveillance.

An example is provided by one XKeyscore document showing an NSA target in
Tehran communicating with people in Frankfurt, Amsterdam and New York.

KS12

In recent years, the NSA has attempted to segregate exclusively domestic US
communications in separate databases. But even NSA documents acknowledge that
such efforts are imperfect, as even purely domestic communications can travel
on foreign systems, and NSA tools are sometimes unable to identify the
national origins of communications.

Moreover, all communications between Americans and someone on foreign soil
are included in the same databases as foreign-to-foreign communications,
making them readily searchable without warrants.

Some searches conducted by NSA analysts are periodically reviewed by their
supervisors within the NSA. "It's very rare to be questioned on our
searches," Snowden told the Guardian in June, "and even when we are, it's
usually along the lines of: 'let's bulk up the justification'."

In a letter this week to senator Ron Wyden, director of national intelligence
James Clapper acknowledged that NSA analysts have exceeded even legal limits
as interpreted by the NSA in domestic surveillance.

Acknowledging what he called "a number of compliance problems", Clapper
attributed them to "human error" or "highly sophisticated technology issues"
rather than "bad faith".

However, Wyden said on the Senate floor on Tuesday: "These violations are
more serious than those stated by the intelligence community, and are
troubling."

In a statement to the Guardian, the NSA said: "NSA's activities are focused
and specifically deployed against ? and only against ? legitimate foreign
intelligence targets in response to requirements that our leaders need for
information necessary to protect our nation and its interests.

"XKeyscore is used as a part of NSA's lawful foreign signals intelligence
collection system.

"Allegations of widespread, unchecked analyst access to NSA collection data
are simply not true. Access to XKeyscore, as well as all of NSA's analytic
tools, is limited to only those personnel who require access for their
assigned tasks ? In addition, there are multiple technical, manual and
supervisory checks and balances within the system to prevent deliberate
misuse from occurring."

"Every search by an NSA analyst is fully auditable, to ensure that they are
proper and within the law.

"These types of programs allow us to collect the information that enables us
to perform our missions successfully ? to defend the nation and to protect US
and allied troops abroad."
_______________________________________________
info mailing list
info at postbiota.org
http://postbiota.org/mailman/listinfo/info



From atymes at gmail.com  Wed Jul 31 15:55:25 2013
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2013 08:55:25 -0700
Subject: [ExI] lists going quiet, was: RE: list test
In-Reply-To: <20130731100018.GU29404@leitl.org>
References: <019801ce8c6f$bbd9e180$338da480$@rainier66.com>
 <51F8092F.9020309@aleph.se> <20130731064357.GR29404@leitl.org>
 <CALAdGNRyyfN98R0ZR6vBzhFe=hGXgOQZSQjNdjvOCWTuUgDkVQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20130731100018.GU29404@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNQr1qgkUQpwB7nAdPCfUhhvFxVY0gSXw73JUms8UpbRSg@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 3:00 AM, Eugen Leitl <eugen at leitl.org> wrote:

> Speak for yourself. The two darknet projects I'm associated with
> get a lot of work done. None of my nontechnical/community mailing
> lists (including this one) get any work done.
>

Invalid comparison.  Nontechnical/community mailing lists aren't about
getting work done.  There are many technical lists that get work done
without being darknets - and once they have developed something for others
to use, they can freely put the tool in the hands of complete strangers,
letting that many more people benefit from their work.

Further, the larger ones keep attracting new talent to push the work
forward faster.  Which is more likely to make an AI: 5 people who fall to
groupthink and pound at one idea for a decade, or 100 people (out of a
10,000 member list, but only 1% actually do much) who test out different
approaches?
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From eugen at leitl.org  Wed Jul 31 16:07:08 2013
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2013 18:07:08 +0200
Subject: [ExI] [info] XKeyscore: NSA tool collects 'nearly everything a user
 does on the internet'
Message-ID: <20130731160708.GJ29404@leitl.org>


http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/31/nsa-top-secret-program-online-data

XKeyscore: NSA tool collects 'nearly everything a user does on the internet'

? XKeyscore gives 'widest-reaching' collection of online data

? NSA analysts require no prior authorization for searches

? Sweeps up emails, social media activity and browsing history

? NSA's XKeyscore program ? read one of the presentations

Glenn Greenwald

theguardian.com, Wednesday 31 July 2013 13.56 BST

XKeyscore map

One presentation claims the XKeyscore program covers 'nearly everything a
typical user does on the internet'

A top secret National Security Agency program allows analysts to search with
no prior authorization through vast databases containing emails, online chats
and the browsing histories of millions of individuals, according to documents
provided by whistleblower Edward Snowden.

The NSA boasts in training materials that the program, called XKeyscore, is
its "widest-reaching" system for developing intelligence from the internet.

The latest revelations will add to the intense public and congressional
debate around the extent of NSA surveillance programs. They come as senior
intelligence officials testify to the Senate judiciary committee on
Wednesday, releasing classified documents in response to the Guardian's
earlier stories on bulk collection of phone records and Fisa surveillance
court oversight.

The files shed light on one of Snowden's most controversial statements, made
in his first video interview published by the Guardian on June 10.

"I, sitting at my desk," said Snowden, could "wiretap anyone, from you or
your accountant, to a federal judge or even the president, if I had a
personal email".

US officials vehemently denied this specific claim. Mike Rogers, the
Republican chairman of the House intelligence committee, said of Snowden's
assertion: "He's lying. It's impossible for him to do what he was saying he
could do."

But training materials for XKeyscore detail how analysts can use it and other
systems to mine enormous agency databases by filling in a simple on-screen
form giving only a broad justification for the search. The request is not
reviewed by a court or any NSA personnel before it is processed.

XKeyscore, the documents boast, is the NSA's "widest reaching" system
developing intelligence from computer networks ? what the agency calls
Digital Network Intelligence (DNI). One presentation claims the program
covers "nearly everything a typical user does on the internet", including the
content of emails, websites visited and searches, as well as their metadata.

Analysts can also use XKeyscore and other NSA systems to obtain ongoing
"real-time" interception of an individual's internet activity.

Under US law, the NSA is required to obtain an individualized Fisa warrant
only if the target of their surveillance is a 'US person', though no such
warrant is required for intercepting the communications of Americans with
foreign targets. But XKeyscore provides the technological capability, if not
the legal authority, to target even US persons for extensive electronic
surveillance without a warrant provided that some identifying information,
such as their email or IP address, is known to the analyst.

One training slide illustrates the digital activity constantly being
collected by XKeyscore and the analyst's ability to query the databases at
any time.

KS1

The purpose of XKeyscore is to allow analysts to search the metadata as well
as the content of emails and other internet activity, such as browser
history, even when there is no known email account (a "selector" in NSA
parlance) associated with the individual being targeted.

Analysts can also search by name, telephone number, IP address, keywords, the
language in which the internet activity was conducted or the type of browser
used.

One document notes that this is because "strong selection [search by email
address] itself gives us only a very limited capability" because "a large
amount of time spent on the web is performing actions that are anonymous."

The NSA documents assert that by 2008, 300 terrorists had been captured using
intelligence from XKeyscore.

Analysts are warned that searching the full database for content will yield
too many results to sift through. Instead they are advised to use the
metadata also stored in the databases to narrow down what to review.

A slide entitled "plug-ins" in a December 2012 document describes the various
fields of information that can be searched. It includes "every email address
seen in a session by both username and domain", "every phone number seen in a
session (eg address book entries or signature block)" and user activity ?
"the webmail and chat activity to include username, buddylist, machine
specific cookies etc".

Email monitoring

In a second Guardian interview in June, Snowden elaborated on his statement
about being able to read any individual's email if he had their email
address. He said the claim was based in part on the email search capabilities
of XKeyscore, which Snowden says he was authorized to use while working as a
Booz Allen contractor for the NSA.

One top-secret document describes how the program "searches within bodies of
emails, webpages and documents", including the "To, From, CC, BCC lines" and
the 'Contact Us' pages on websites".

To search for emails, an analyst using XKS enters the individual's email
address into a simple online search form, along with the "justification" for
the search and the time period for which the emails are sought.

KS2

KS3edit

The analyst then selects which of those returned emails they want to read by
opening them in NSA reading software.

The system is similar to the way in which NSA analysts generally can
intercept the communications of anyone they select, including, as one NSA
document put it, "communications that transit the United States and
communications that terminate in the United States".

One document, a top secret 2010 guide describing the training received by NSA
analysts for general surveillance under the Fisa Amendments Act of 2008,
explains that analysts can begin surveillance on anyone by clicking a few
simple pull-down menus designed to provide both legal and targeting
justifications. Once options on the pull-down menus are selected, their
target is marked for electronic surveillance and the analyst is able to
review the content of their communications:

KS4

Chats, browsing history and other internet activity

Beyond emails, the XKeyscore system allows analysts to monitor a virtually
unlimited array of other internet activities, including those within social
media.

An NSA tool called DNI Presenter, used to read the content of stored emails,
also enables an analyst using XKeyscore to read the content of Facebook chats
or private messages.

KS5

An analyst can monitor such Facebook chats by entering the Facebook user name
and a date range into a simple search screen.

KS6

Analysts can search for internet browsing activities using a wide range of
information, including search terms entered by the user or the websites
viewed.

KS7

As one slide indicates, the ability to search HTTP activity by keyword
permits the analyst access to what the NSA calls "nearly everything a typical
user does on the internet".

KS8

The XKeyscore program also allows an analyst to learn the IP addresses of
every person who visits any website the analyst specifies.

KS9

The quantity of communications accessible through programs such as XKeyscore
is staggeringly large. One NSA report from 2007 estimated that there were
850bn "call events" collected and stored in the NSA databases, and close to
150bn internet records. Each day, the document says, 1-2bn records were
added.

William Binney, a former NSA mathematician, said last year that the agency
had "assembled on the order of 20tn transactions about US citizens with other
US citizens", an estimate, he said, that "only was involving phone calls and
emails". A 2010 Washington Post article reported that "every day, collection
systems at the [NSA] intercept and store 1.7bn emails, phone calls and other
type of communications."

The XKeyscore system is continuously collecting so much internet data that it
can be stored only for short periods of time. Content remains on the system
for only three to five days, while metadata is stored for 30 days. One
document explains: "At some sites, the amount of data we receive per day (20+
terabytes) can only be stored for as little as 24 hours."

To solve this problem, the NSA has created a multi-tiered system that allows
analysts to store "interesting" content in other databases, such as one named
Pinwale which can store material for up to five years. 

It is the databases of XKeyscore, one document shows, that now contain the
greatest amount of communications data collected by the NSA.

KS10

In 2012, there were at least 41 billion total records collected and stored in
XKeyscore for a single 30-day period.

KS11

Legal v technical restrictions

While the Fisa Amendments Act of 2008 requires an individualized warrant for
the targeting of US persons, NSA analysts are permitted to intercept the
communications of such individuals without a warrant if they are in contact
with one of the NSA's foreign targets.

The ACLU's deputy legal director, Jameel Jaffer, told the Guardian last month
that national security officials expressly said that a primary purpose of the
new law was to enable them to collect large amounts of Americans'
communications without individualized warrants.

"The government doesn't need to 'target' Americans in order to collect huge
volumes of their communications," said Jaffer. "The government inevitably
sweeps up the communications of many Americans" when targeting foreign
nationals for surveillance.

An example is provided by one XKeyscore document showing an NSA target in
Tehran communicating with people in Frankfurt, Amsterdam and New York.

KS12

In recent years, the NSA has attempted to segregate exclusively domestic US
communications in separate databases. But even NSA documents acknowledge that
such efforts are imperfect, as even purely domestic communications can travel
on foreign systems, and NSA tools are sometimes unable to identify the
national origins of communications.

Moreover, all communications between Americans and someone on foreign soil
are included in the same databases as foreign-to-foreign communications,
making them readily searchable without warrants.

Some searches conducted by NSA analysts are periodically reviewed by their
supervisors within the NSA. "It's very rare to be questioned on our
searches," Snowden told the Guardian in June, "and even when we are, it's
usually along the lines of: 'let's bulk up the justification'."

In a letter this week to senator Ron Wyden, director of national intelligence
James Clapper acknowledged that NSA analysts have exceeded even legal limits
as interpreted by the NSA in domestic surveillance.

Acknowledging what he called "a number of compliance problems", Clapper
attributed them to "human error" or "highly sophisticated technology issues"
rather than "bad faith".

However, Wyden said on the Senate floor on Tuesday: "These violations are
more serious than those stated by the intelligence community, and are
troubling."

In a statement to the Guardian, the NSA said: "NSA's activities are focused
and specifically deployed against ? and only against ? legitimate foreign
intelligence targets in response to requirements that our leaders need for
information necessary to protect our nation and its interests.

"XKeyscore is used as a part of NSA's lawful foreign signals intelligence
collection system.

"Allegations of widespread, unchecked analyst access to NSA collection data
are simply not true. Access to XKeyscore, as well as all of NSA's analytic
tools, is limited to only those personnel who require access for their
assigned tasks ? In addition, there are multiple technical, manual and
supervisory checks and balances within the system to prevent deliberate
misuse from occurring."

"Every search by an NSA analyst is fully auditable, to ensure that they are
proper and within the law.

"These types of programs allow us to collect the information that enables us
to perform our missions successfully ? to defend the nation and to protect US
and allied troops abroad."
_______________________________________________
info mailing list
info at postbiota.org
http://postbiota.org/mailman/listinfo/info

----- End forwarded message -----
-- 
Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://ativel.com http://postbiota.org
AC894EC5: 38A5 5F46 A4FF 59B8 336B  47EE F46E 3489 AC89 4EC5


From lubkin at unreasonable.com  Wed Jul 31 16:19:06 2013
From: lubkin at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin)
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2013 12:19:06 -0400
Subject: [ExI] (In)voluntary technology
Message-ID: <201307311619.r6VGJMl6011369@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

<http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/31/technology/warrantless-cellphone-tracking-is-upheld.html> 


One line caught my eye:

>In any event, the court added, the use of cellphones "is entirely voluntary."

What technologies are there whose use courts have conceded isn't
"entirely voluntary," or even "isn't voluntary"?

Each method of transportation other than walking can be argued is
voluntary. You don't have to fly; you can drive. You don't have to drive; you
can take the bus. But in aggregate, I'd guess that less than 1% of adult
Americans could survive without directly using one of them, and effectively
zero could survive without goods or services that reached them using
a transportation technology.

Is use of a landline entirely voluntary? A refrigerator? A toilet? How
pervasive does a tech need to be?


-- David.



From atymes at gmail.com  Wed Jul 31 16:45:50 2013
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2013 09:45:50 -0700
Subject: [ExI] (In)voluntary technology
In-Reply-To: <201307311619.r6VGJMl6011369@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <201307311619.r6VGJMl6011369@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNS9s+iQu7opx5JLFr1esB7HguF54sMWzKsa9N67qKmXng@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 9:19 AM, David Lubkin <lubkin at unreasonable.com>wrote:

> What technologies are there whose use courts have conceded isn't
> "entirely voluntary," or even "isn't voluntary"?
>

Basically, stuff even the Amish use - or, especially, are compelled by law
to use.  Stuff like vaccinations for school children.
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From pharos at gmail.com  Wed Jul 31 17:27:36 2013
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2013 18:27:36 +0100
Subject: [ExI] (In)voluntary technology
In-Reply-To: <201307311619.r6VGJMl6011369@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
References: <201307311619.r6VGJMl6011369@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armjXWY=Gg+MTjkKGGZRm4tvbV3xz863jtaR6V5k=mPgunA@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 5:19 PM, David Lubkin  wrote:
> <http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/31/technology/warrantless-cellphone-tracking-is-upheld.html>
>
> One line caught my eye:
>> In any event, the court added, the use of cellphones "is entirely
>> voluntary."
>
>

It is voluntary in the sense that if you don't want to be tracked,
then you leave your cellphone at home.

So your embarrassing visits to the nude yoga group can go unrecorded.

BillK


From giulio at gmail.com  Wed Jul 31 17:43:47 2013
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2013 19:43:47 +0200
Subject: [ExI] lists going quiet, was: RE: list test
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNQr1qgkUQpwB7nAdPCfUhhvFxVY0gSXw73JUms8UpbRSg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <019801ce8c6f$bbd9e180$338da480$@rainier66.com>
 <51F8092F.9020309@aleph.se> <20130731064357.GR29404@leitl.org>
 <CALAdGNRyyfN98R0ZR6vBzhFe=hGXgOQZSQjNdjvOCWTuUgDkVQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20130731100018.GU29404@leitl.org>
 <CALAdGNQr1qgkUQpwB7nAdPCfUhhvFxVY0gSXw73JUms8UpbRSg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKTCJycfmk5Ox4EmVd4j4Jtisf9gDztd7MzBt-cL56u_NdowvQ@mail.gmail.com>

I wonder how much of the slowdown is due to the fact that email and
mailing lists are basically the same as 20 years ago, and not as fast,
ergonomic and structured as the "modern" communications means (FB, G+,
Twitter, IM, whatsapp and whatnot).

To me email has still the huge advantage of not being a walled garden
that belongs to a corporation. But perhaps there could be ways to
combine the openness of email with the advantages of more recent
developments.


From spike at rainier66.com  Wed Jul 31 17:50:30 2013
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike)
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2013 10:50:30 -0700
Subject: [ExI] (In)voluntary technology
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNS9s+iQu7opx5JLFr1esB7HguF54sMWzKsa9N67qKmXng@mail.gmail.com>
References: <201307311619.r6VGJMl6011369@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <CALAdGNS9s+iQu7opx5JLFr1esB7HguF54sMWzKsa9N67qKmXng@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00c301ce8e16$7392fa80$5ab8ef80$@rainier66.com>

 

 

>. On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes
Subject: Re: [ExI] (In)voluntary technology

 

>>.On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 9:19 AM, David Lubkin <lubkin at unreasonable.com>
wrote:

What technologies are there whose use courts have conceded isn't
"entirely voluntary," or even "isn't voluntary"?

 

>.Basically, stuff even the Amish use - or, especially, are compelled by law
to use.  Stuff like vaccinations for school children. 

 

The distinction of voluntary vs involuntary brings in an answer to a
question privacy advocates were not asking.  The implication is that if
anyone uses a cell phone, the fed is justified in intercepting the signal
since the use of a cell phone is voluntary.  This is a new take on an old
question.

 

I urge those interested in this topic to focus on the bigger picture.  As
far as I can tell, there is nothing in the US constitution that specifically
forbids the fed from collecting the content of a phone conversation or
email, and nothing in the US constitution that specifically forbids the fed
from using the IRS to destroy anyone for any reason, including it simply
wants the assets of the victim.  The IRS is not required to present evidence
to any oversight committee.

 

I see nothing in the constitution that forbids the US government from
collecting email, which might contain blasphemy against for instance Joseph
Smith, and handing it over to some government where there is no freedom of
speech when it comes to blasphemy against Smith, and no serious requirement
for solid evidence that the accused perpetrated the blasphemy.  Life
sentences and even death sentences could be handed out at the whim of that
government to anyone it catches within its borders.

 

If we fail to see the need to check the power of every government with any
form of unchecked power, then we have failed to learn anything from the
bitter experience of Germany with tyrants.

 

A key observation to me is that for the first time, the US fed is loudly
asserting its right to do anything it wants, so long as it is not
specifically forbidden by the constitution.  This would include powers such
as seizing information and using the IRS as a weapon.  We can argue that the
fed had these powers for a long time.  Now it is using these powers, and
defying objectors to demonstrate how it is illegal.

 

spike

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From lubkin at unreasonable.com  Wed Jul 31 19:00:45 2013
From: lubkin at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin)
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2013 15:00:45 -0400
Subject: [ExI] (In)voluntary technology
In-Reply-To: <00c301ce8e16$7392fa80$5ab8ef80$@rainier66.com>
References: <201307311619.r6VGJMl6011369@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <CALAdGNS9s+iQu7opx5JLFr1esB7HguF54sMWzKsa9N67qKmXng@mail.gmail.com>
 <00c301ce8e16$7392fa80$5ab8ef80$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <201307311901.r6VJ13at008340@andromeda.ziaspace.com>

Spike wrote:

>The distinction of voluntary vs involuntary 
>brings in an answer to a question privacy 
>advocates were not asking.  The implication is 
>that if anyone uses a cell phone, the fed is 
>justified in intercepting the signal since the 
>use of a cell phone is voluntary.  This is a new take on an old question.
>
>I urge those interested in this topic to focus on the bigger picture.

They're separate matters. It's reasonable to be concerned about the
question of when a government can or should be allowed to snoop on
you. The one I focused on is *my* question about a different concern ?
the line of reasoning that suggests that a government can be as
burdensome as it cares to when it pertains to something you don't
*need* to do.

In order to understand where they might take that, or where they already
feel entitled, it'd be useful to know what they argue or concede is not
voluntary.

For instance, at the same time the court contends that cell phones
are entirely voluntary, the FCC's Lifelife program is advanced on
the premise that a cell phone is a necessity of life.

<http://www.fcc.lifeline>


-- David.




From eugen at leitl.org  Wed Jul 31 20:43:04 2013
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2013 22:43:04 +0200
Subject: [ExI] (In)voluntary technology
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armjXWY=Gg+MTjkKGGZRm4tvbV3xz863jtaR6V5k=mPgunA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <201307311619.r6VGJMl6011369@andromeda.ziaspace.com>
 <CAL_armjXWY=Gg+MTjkKGGZRm4tvbV3xz863jtaR6V5k=mPgunA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20130731204304.GO29404@leitl.org>

On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 06:27:36PM +0100, BillK wrote:

> It is voluntary in the sense that if you don't want to be tracked,
> then you leave your cellphone at home.

Just removing the battery will do. Switching off alone is
insufficient. Another additional annoyance is randomly 
changing IMEI (maybe with a grace period to allow
for some shift in location), and remixing IMSI from a 
prepaid pool (labor-intensive, and limited).

Notice you can run Tor (e.g. ORBot) on your phone, so you 
can uncouple your online activities from your physical
location.
 
> So your embarrassing visits to the nude yoga group can go unrecorded.


From eugen at leitl.org  Wed Jul 31 20:45:11 2013
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2013 22:45:11 +0200
Subject: [ExI] lists going quiet, was: RE: list test
In-Reply-To: <CAKTCJycfmk5Ox4EmVd4j4Jtisf9gDztd7MzBt-cL56u_NdowvQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <019801ce8c6f$bbd9e180$338da480$@rainier66.com>
 <51F8092F.9020309@aleph.se> <20130731064357.GR29404@leitl.org>
 <CALAdGNRyyfN98R0ZR6vBzhFe=hGXgOQZSQjNdjvOCWTuUgDkVQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20130731100018.GU29404@leitl.org>
 <CALAdGNQr1qgkUQpwB7nAdPCfUhhvFxVY0gSXw73JUms8UpbRSg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTCJycfmk5Ox4EmVd4j4Jtisf9gDztd7MzBt-cL56u_NdowvQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20130731204511.GP29404@leitl.org>

On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 07:43:47PM +0200, Giulio Prisco wrote:

> To me email has still the huge advantage of not being a walled garden
> that belongs to a corporation. But perhaps there could be ways to
> combine the openness of email with the advantages of more recent
> developments.

We're overdue for a serverless P2P messaging service. BitMessage
wasn't it. I'm thinking things will improve with IPv6, as many
data services use IPv4 with carrier grade NAT.


From me at michaeldevault.com  Wed Jul 31 18:05:09 2013
From: me at michaeldevault.com (Michael DeVault)
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2013 13:05:09 -0500
Subject: [ExI] lists going quiet, was: RE: list test
In-Reply-To: <CAKTCJycfmk5Ox4EmVd4j4Jtisf9gDztd7MzBt-cL56u_NdowvQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <019801ce8c6f$bbd9e180$338da480$@rainier66.com>
 <51F8092F.9020309@aleph.se> <20130731064357.GR29404@leitl.org>
 <CALAdGNRyyfN98R0ZR6vBzhFe=hGXgOQZSQjNdjvOCWTuUgDkVQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20130731100018.GU29404@leitl.org>
 <CALAdGNQr1qgkUQpwB7nAdPCfUhhvFxVY0gSXw73JUms8UpbRSg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTCJycfmk5Ox4EmVd4j4Jtisf9gDztd7MzBt-cL56u_NdowvQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <758F5846-3CDA-4F3C-B0B3-4C56A8AFFA6F@michaeldevault.com>

For some reason, this thought reminded me of The Globe, an old, first attempt at social networking. 

The basic premise was building communities of similarly interested individuals for idea exchange, camaraderie, and debate. 

It died, sadly. 

Sent from my  iPhone. 
On Jul 31, 2013, at 12:43 PM, Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:

> I wonder how much of the slowdown is due to the fact that email and
> mailing lists are basically the same as 20 years ago, and not as fast,
> ergonomic and structured as the "modern" communications means (FB, G+,
> Twitter, IM, whatsapp and whatnot).
> 
> To me email has still the huge advantage of not being a walled garden
> that belongs to a corporation. But perhaps there could be ways to
> combine the openness of email with the advantages of more recent
> developments.
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat