From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Mon Dec 1 07:38:36 2014 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2014 02:38:36 -0500 Subject: [ExI] hacked email In-Reply-To: <43567190-28411@secure.ericade.net> References: <43567190-28411@secure.ericade.net> Message-ID: On Sun, Nov 30, 2014 at 5:01 PM, Anders Sandberg wrote: > > > Overall, we choose black faceted and rather understated rings: > https://flic.kr/p/pY7dfZ > > So far I have not had the inclination of testing just what I can and > cannot scratch with it... > ### Scratching steel should be easy :) "TC is forever and 1/1000th the price" - that should be the motto of people who know better than to believe what the jewelry peddlers are telling us. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anders at aleph.se Mon Dec 1 10:11:13 2014 From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2014 11:11:13 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Carbides (Was: hacked email) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <88628968-14238@secure.ericade.net> Rafal Smigrodzki??, 1/12/2014 8:43 AM: ### Scratching steel should be easy :) "TC is forever and 1/1000th the price" - that should be the motto of people who know better than to believe what the jewelry peddlers are telling us. Well, it cannot survive the solar photosphere. But for most normal activities outside nuclear fireballs it is forever. I was a bit worried that it was vulnerable to acetone given some text on Wikipedia, but Eric Drexler looked into it and found that the mention was due to a misreading of the original paper; it has been corrected. I briefly looked at jewels, and found silicon carbide (moissanite) to be intriguing. Again, way cheaper than diamond, almost as hard, and with great optical properties.? Carbides are generally quite awesome.? Anders Sandberg, Future of Humanity Institute Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Mon Dec 1 10:27:56 2014 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2014 10:27:56 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Wanderers In-Reply-To: <43409931-19422@secure.ericade.net> References: <43409931-19422@secure.ericade.net> Message-ID: On Sun, Nov 30, 2014 at 9:25 PM, Anders Sandberg wrote: > The dose of vision for this weekend: > http://vimeo.com/108650530 > (Except that I expect slightly more ambitious bodies too) > Good visuals and words. Viewers universally praised it. Phil Plait raved about it. But it made me sad..... Viewed from the comfort of my armchair it was a lovely vision. But then I thought about the reality of living in that vision. Locked in a tin box for months or years to get there. Trapped in a metal dome on a desert planet. Sealed in a spacesuit to venture outside the dome. It would be like volunteering to go to a prison with barren views out the window. To me it emphasized that these places are not for humans. They are for our machines. BillK From giulio at gmail.com Mon Dec 1 13:47:44 2014 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2014 14:47:44 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Wanderers In-Reply-To: References: <43409931-19422@secure.ericade.net> Message-ID: Well, if I didn't a family to take care of I would volunteer to go tot hat prison anytime. On Mon, Dec 1, 2014 at 11:27 AM, BillK wrote: > On Sun, Nov 30, 2014 at 9:25 PM, Anders Sandberg wrote: >> The dose of vision for this weekend: >> http://vimeo.com/108650530 >> (Except that I expect slightly more ambitious bodies too) >> > > Good visuals and words. Viewers universally praised it. Phil Plait > raved about it. > > But it made me sad..... > > Viewed from the comfort of my armchair it was a lovely vision. > > But then I thought about the reality of living in that vision. Locked > in a tin box for months or years to get there. Trapped in a metal dome > on a desert planet. Sealed in a spacesuit to venture outside the dome. > It would be like volunteering to go to a prison with barren views out > the window. > > To me it emphasized that these places are not for humans. They are for > our machines. > > BillK > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From giulio at gmail.com Mon Dec 1 15:15:16 2014 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2014 16:15:16 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Wanderers In-Reply-To: <43409931-19422@secure.ericade.net> References: <43409931-19422@secure.ericade.net> Message-ID: Awesome and inspiring indeed! On Sun, Nov 30, 2014 at 10:25 PM, Anders Sandberg wrote: > The dose of vision for this weekend: > http://vimeo.com/108650530 > > (Except that I expect slightly more ambitious bodies too) > > Anders Sandberg, Future of Humanity Institute Philosophy Faculty of Oxford > University > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > From spike66 at att.net Mon Dec 1 15:19:10 2014 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2014 07:19:10 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Carbides (Was: hacked email) In-Reply-To: <88628968-14238@secure.ericade.net> References: <88628968-14238@secure.ericade.net> Message-ID: <00e201d00d7a$290ffff0$7b2fffd0$@att.net> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Anders Sandberg ? >?I briefly looked at jewels, and found silicon carbide (moissanite) to be intriguing. Again, way cheaper than diamond, almost as hard, and with great optical properties. Carbides are generally quite awesome? Anders Sandberg? Who woulda thunk. We have this periodic table with over a 100 elements on it. Most of them are really boring. We have five of them will not react at all, and really most of the rest will do some things but one element, just one very special element does so many things and does them so well. It forms super hard materials, combined with iron it makes steel, it gets together in ways that trap energy, moves around, swapping in and out other elements. In a most wonderful manner, it becomes self-aware: my carbon knows about itself. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Mon Dec 1 15:28:24 2014 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2014 07:28:24 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Wanderers In-Reply-To: References: <43409931-19422@secure.ericade.net> Message-ID: <00e701d00d7b$735149b0$59f3dd10$@att.net> >... On Behalf Of BillK Subject: Re: [ExI] Wanderers On Sun, Nov 30, 2014 at 9:25 PM, Anders Sandberg wrote: >>... The dose of vision for this weekend: >>... http://vimeo.com/108650530 >...But it made me sad..... >...To me it emphasized that these places are not for humans. They are for our machines. >...BillK _______________________________________________ I was astonished those recordings of Sagan were found. What were they for originally? Were they bits from Cosmos? Carl Sagan changed my life. A candle in the night is he, a beacon to guide us wanderers through the darkness of a demon-haunted world, a compass pointing to truth, a firm reminder that science is the way. I have half a mind to post that comment to Ann Druyan his co-writer. Anyone here friends with Ann or know her email @? spike From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Dec 1 16:34:34 2014 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2014 10:34:34 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Carbides (Was: hacked email) In-Reply-To: <00e201d00d7a$290ffff0$7b2fffd0$@att.net> References: <88628968-14238@secure.ericade.net> <00e201d00d7a$290ffff0$7b2fffd0$@att.net> Message-ID: Trivia for me: did they ever find a compound like xenon tetrafluoride for the other inert gases? bill w On Mon, Dec 1, 2014 at 9:19 AM, spike wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] *On > Behalf Of *Anders Sandberg > *?* > > > > >?I briefly looked at jewels, and found silicon carbide (moissanite) to > be intriguing. Again, way cheaper than diamond, almost as hard, and with > great optical properties. > > Carbides are generally quite awesome? Anders Sandberg? > > > > > > Who woulda thunk. We have this periodic table with over a 100 elements on > it. Most of them are really boring. We have five of them will not react > at all, and really most of the rest will do some things but one element, > just one very special element does so many things and does them so well. > It forms super hard materials, combined with iron it makes steel, it gets > together in ways that trap energy, moves around, swapping in and out other > elements. In a most wonderful manner, it becomes self-aware: my carbon > knows about itself. > > > > spike > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Mon Dec 1 17:15:57 2014 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2014 09:15:57 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Carbides (Was: hacked email) In-Reply-To: References: <88628968-14238@secure.ericade.net> <00e201d00d7a$290ffff0$7b2fffd0$@att.net> Message-ID: <01b201d00d8a$79a24530$6ce6cf90$@att.net> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace Sent: Monday, December 01, 2014 8:35 AM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] Carbides (Was: hacked email) Trivia for me: did they ever find a compound like xenon tetrafluoride for the other inert gases? bill w On Mon, Dec 1, 2014 at 9:19 AM, spike wrote: A long time ago I heard they did the same trick with radon, but as I understand it they need to keep both compounds positively charged or it spontaneously decays (chemically). Think on that of a minute. You have a chemical which will react with anything, paired to a chemical which reacts with nothing, see who gets their way. Radon tetrafluoride: every time a radon atom decays (nuclear, half life about 4 days) it releases five fluorine atoms to go off and gnaw an electron off of the first thing it sees. That must be some really nasty stuff. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon Dec 1 20:37:29 2014 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2014 15:37:29 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Carbides (Was: hacked email) In-Reply-To: <88628968-14238@secure.ericade.net> References: <88628968-14238@secure.ericade.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 1, 2014 Anders Sandberg wrote: > I briefly looked at jewels, and found silicon carbide (moissanite) to be > intriguing. Again, way cheaper than diamond, almost as hard, > Well, moissanite has a Mohs rating of 9.5 with diamond being 10.0, but that just tells you that it's softer than diamond and harder than corundum (ruby), with its Mohs rating of 9.0, but Mohs is just a list of materials from soft to hard and it doesn't say how much harder one is than another only that if it has a larger number it is harder. On a absolute hardness scale like the Knoop scale it turns out that diamond is much harder than moissanite or of anything else; moissanite has a Knoop rating of 2480 but for diamond its 7000. On the other hand diamond is no good at cutting steel, when it gets hot the carbon in the diamond reacts chemically with the iron, so for that a moissanite or corundum coated blade would work better. [image: File:Knoop-and Mohs- scale.svg] > > and with great optical properties. > Yes, moissanite has a even larger index of refraction than diamond. And It has more optical dispersion than glass or diamond too which makes it more sparkly which is good for jewelry, but a lens made of it would have more chromatic aberration John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Mon Dec 1 21:06:26 2014 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2014 13:06:26 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Alzheimer's and pot Message-ID: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25024327# I was just going to send this to Spike, but it's one of the things many of us tend to be concerned about. Keith The potential therapeutic effects of THC on Alzheimer's disease. Cao C1, Li Y2, Liu H1, Bai G2, Mayl J3, Lin X1, Sutherland K4, Nabar N5, Cai J2. Author information Abstract The purpose of this study was to investigate the potential therapeutic qualities of ?9-tetrahydrocannabinol (THC) with respect to slowing or halting the hallmark characteristics of Alzheimer's disease. N2a-variant amyloid-? protein precursor (A?PP) cells were incubated with THC and assayed for amyloid-? (A?) levels at the 6-, 24-, and 48-hour time marks. THC was also tested for synergy with caffeine, in respect to the reduction of the A? level in N2a/A?PPswe cells. THC was also tested to determine if multiple treatments were beneficial. The MTT assay was performed to test the toxicity of THC. Thioflavin T assays and western blots were performed to test the direct anti-A? aggregation significance of THC. Lastly, THC was tested to determine its effects on glycogen synthase kinase-3? (GSK-3?) and related signaling pathways. From the results, we have discovered THC to be effective at lowering A? levels in N2a/A?PPswe cells at extremely low concentrations in a dose-dependent manner. However, no additive effect was found by combining caffeine and THC together. We did discover that THC directly interacts with A? peptide, thereby inhibiting aggregation. Furthermore, THC was effective at lowering both total GSK-3? levels and phosphorylated GSK-3? in a dose-dependent manner at low concentrations. At the treatment concentrations, no toxicity was observed and the CB1 receptor was not significantly upregulated. Additionally, low doses of THC can enhance mitochondria function and does not inhibit melatonin's enhancement of mitochondria function. These sets of data strongly suggest that THC could be a potential therapeutic treatment option for Alzheimer's disease through multiple functions and pathways. KEYWORDS: Alzheimer's disease; CB1 receptor; CB2 receptor; amyloid-? peptide; cannabinoid; delta(9)-tetrahydrocannabinol; neurodegeneration From pharos at gmail.com Mon Dec 1 21:43:11 2014 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2014 21:43:11 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Alzheimer's and pot In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 1, 2014 at 9:06 PM, Keith Henson wrote: > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25024327# > The potential therapeutic effects of THC on Alzheimer's disease. > Cao C1, Li Y2, Liu H1, Bai G2, Mayl J3, Lin X1, Sutherland K4, Nabar N5, Cai J2. > This was reported in Aug 2014 in the Journal of Alzheimer's Disease. The word 'potential' is important. This is a cell culture study and the report is very cautious about possibilities for treating humans. Quote: The researchers point out that at the low doses studied, the therapeutic benefits of THC appear to prevail over the associated risks of THC toxicity and memory impairment. "While we are still far from a consensus, this study indicates that THC and THC-related compounds may be of therapeutic value in Alzheimer's disease," Nabar said. "Are we advocating that people use illicit drugs to prevent the disease? No. It's important to keep in mind that just because a drug may be effective doesn't mean it can be safely used by anyone. However, these findings may lead to the development of related compounds that are safe, legal, and useful in the treatment of Alzheimer's disease." ------- Marijuana does appear to be of some benefit for serious dementia sufferers, in helping relaxation and reducing panic attacks. But as there are memory problems associated with pot, it would probably not be suggested for subjects who already have memory problems. BillK From spike66 at att.net Mon Dec 1 22:56:01 2014 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2014 14:56:01 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Alzheimer's and pot In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00d101d00db9$fb38f830$f1aae890$@att.net> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of BillK ... ------- >...Marijuana does appear to be of some benefit for serious dementia sufferers, in helping relaxation and reducing panic attacks. But as there are memory problems associated with pot, it would probably not be suggested for subjects who already have memory problems. BillK _______________________________________________ Well BillK, that pretty much completes the list. A life-long Christian fundamentalist gets a disease and is told it may be treated by a list of chemicals which starts with nicotine, alcohol, caffeine and marijuana. In my own family, the patient passed away last week. spike From anders at aleph.se Tue Dec 2 12:52:03 2014 From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2014 13:52:03 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Alzheimer's and pot In-Reply-To: <00d101d00db9$fb38f830$f1aae890$@att.net> Message-ID: <185281529-22230@secure.ericade.net> spike , 2/12/2014 12:13 AM: Well BillK, that pretty much completes the list. ?A life-long Christian fundamentalist gets a disease and is told it may be treated by a list of chemicals which starts with nicotine, alcohol, caffeine and marijuana. There probably has to be some sex therapy too.? In my own family, the patient passed away last week. I am so sorry to hear that. :-( Anders Sandberg, Future of Humanity Institute Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anders at aleph.se Tue Dec 2 12:54:15 2014 From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2014 13:54:15 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Carbides (Was: hacked email) In-Reply-To: <00e201d00d7a$290ffff0$7b2fffd0$@att.net> Message-ID: <185597115-22570@secure.ericade.net> spike??, 1/12/2014 4:36 PM: Who woulda thunk.? We have this periodic table with over a 100 elements on it.? Most of them are really boring.? We have five of them will not react at all, and really most of the rest will do some things but one element, just one very special element does so many things and does them so well.? It forms super hard materials, combined with iron it makes steel, it gets together in ways that trap energy, moves around, swapping in and out other elements.? In a most wonderful manner, it becomes self-aware: my carbon knows about itself. Beautifully put. Yes, carbon is awesome. You might need some traces of the other elements and a bit of hydrogen or fluorine to cap off surfaces, but I suspect much of an advanced civilization could just be built out of carbon (except for the unimportant bulk filler, which would be composed of less useful stuff like iron and gold).? Anders Sandberg, Future of Humanity Institute Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anders at aleph.se Tue Dec 2 13:00:03 2014 From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2014 14:00:03 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Carbides In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <185889358-25798@secure.ericade.net> William Flynn Wallace , 1/12/2014 5:38 PM: Trivia for me:? did they ever find a compound like xenon tetrafluoride for the other inert gases?? bill w It is not just cool that there is radon difluoride (and it glows as a solid!), but that apparently there are *uses* for xenic acid in organic chemistry! What next? Big industrial applications for scandium? Anders Sandberg, Future of Humanity Institute Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Dec 2 15:34:43 2014 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2014 09:34:43 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Alzheimer's and pot In-Reply-To: <185281529-22230@secure.ericade.net> References: <00d101d00db9$fb38f830$f1aae890$@att.net> <185281529-22230@secure.ericade.net> Message-ID: > > Well BillK, that pretty much completes the list. A life-long Christian > fundamentalist gets a disease and is told it may be treated by a list of > chemicals which starts with nicotine, alcohol, caffeine and marijuana. > > > There probably has to be some sex therapy too. > > > In my own family, the patient passed away last week. > > > I am so sorry to hear that. :-( > > > Anders Sandberg, Future of Humanity Institute Philosophy Faculty of Oxford > University > > ?I too send condolences and a question: what medical use was intended for caffeine and nicotine? bill w? > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Tue Dec 2 15:49:28 2014 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2014 07:49:28 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Alzheimer's and pot In-Reply-To: <185281529-22230@secure.ericade.net> References: <00d101d00db9$fb38f830$f1aae890$@att.net> <185281529-22230@secure.ericade.net> Message-ID: <014701d00e47$8f2778e0$ad766aa0$@att.net> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Anders Sandberg ? >?There probably has to be some sex therapy too? I don?t see why not. I have a pile of new insights from the experience, which I may roll out in a few weeks. It is a bit of a downer topic, so I may delay it and ponder some of the ideas a bit longer. >?In my own family, the patient passed away last week. >?I am so sorry to hear that. :-( Anders Sandberg? My former college roommate was visiting yesterday, said his 80 yr old father is showing early signs of AD. His father, being a doctor, specifically a gerontologist, he already knows what it is and how the disease will progress. I started thinking again about that notion I had about bexarotene and how an alcohol solution could perhaps get it across the blood brain barrier. To experiment with such a thing, what we need is an informed patient (that was a the show stopper in the family case, we didn?t have that by the time I came up with the idea.) If we have an early AD chemistry-hip doctor and explain the scheme, I would feel perfectly well in the green on the ethics meter. The patient being a doctor might take out the risk of legal difficulties with regard to practicing medicine without a license. I have many things to ponder. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Tue Dec 2 16:49:03 2014 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2014 08:49:03 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Alzheimer's and pot In-Reply-To: References: <00d101d00db9$fb38f830$f1aae890$@att.net> <185281529-22230@secure.ericade.net> Message-ID: <003201d00e4f$e2958780$a7c09680$@att.net> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace ? ?>? what medical use was intended for caffeine and nicotine? bill w? Alzheimers. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue Dec 2 18:44:23 2014 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2014 13:44:23 -0500 Subject: [ExI] As of today I am a full Alcor member Message-ID: I am still in good health but (and I know this will come as a shock) the fact is I'm 10 years older than I was 10 years ago, so I thought it was time to make a move. I'm happy to say that as of today I am a full Alcor member. I chose neuropreservation because I don't see the point in full body, I figure if they're advanced enough, and magnanimous enough, to repair the freeze damage to my brain replacing my left knee cap wouldn't stump them. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From clementlawyer at gmail.com Tue Dec 2 19:28:06 2014 From: clementlawyer at gmail.com (James Clement) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2014 13:28:06 -0600 Subject: [ExI] As of today I am a full Alcor member In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 2, 2014 at 12:44 PM, John Clark wrote: > I'm happy to say that as of today I am a full Alcor member. > Congrats! I think signing up for cryonics is one of the smartest moves a person can make. The younger you do it, the easier and cheaper it is! James -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Wed Dec 3 00:58:09 2014 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2014 17:58:09 -0700 Subject: [ExI] "NASA's 1st Deep-Space Capsule in 40 Years Ready for Launch Debut" Message-ID: "A spaceship built to carry humans is about to venture into deep space for the first time in more than four decades." This is hopefully the start of big things, when it comes to getting human beings back into serious space exploration. http://www.space.com/27883-nasa-orion-capsule-deep-space.html?cmpid=558739 John : ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Wed Dec 3 01:02:09 2014 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2014 18:02:09 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The Best Science Books of 2014 Message-ID: *"The math of soul mates, the psychology of nothing, the physics of faith, and more illuminating insights on the universe and our place in it."* http://www.brainpickings.org/2014/11/24/best-science-books-2014/ John : ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Wed Dec 3 01:09:00 2014 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2014 18:09:00 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The transhumanist themed artwork of Michael MacRae Message-ID: I find Michael MacRae's transhumanistic artwork, both very cool, and chilling.... http://themichaelmacrae.wordpress.com/#jp-carousel-107 John : ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Wed Dec 3 01:47:31 2014 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2014 17:47:31 -0800 Subject: [ExI] "NASA's 1st Deep-Space Capsule in 40 Years Ready for Launch Debut" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <027301d00e9b$2182bbc0$64883340$@att.net> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of John Grigg Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2014 4:58 PM To: ExI chat list Subject: [ExI] "NASA's 1st Deep-Space Capsule in 40 Years Ready for Launch Debut" "A spaceship built to carry humans is about to venture into deep space for the first time in more than four decades." >?This is hopefully the start of big things, when it comes to getting human beings back into serious space exploration. >?http://www.space.com/27883-nasa-orion-capsule-deep-space.html?cmpid=558739 >?John : ) WOW this is cool John. I wonder what company built this Orion? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From max at maxmore.com Wed Dec 3 03:03:43 2014 From: max at maxmore.com (Max More) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2014 20:03:43 -0700 Subject: [ExI] As of today I am a full Alcor member In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Smart move! I'm curious as to how many list members are signed up for cryonics and, of those who are not, how many are seriously pondering it. It distresses me to see so many people interested in and optimistic about the future who end up dead because they never got around to the only currently feasible way around aging -- cryopreservation. For anyone pondering: I would be happy to talk with you to address any questions or concerns. On Tue, Dec 2, 2014 at 11:44 AM, John Clark wrote: > I am still in good health but (and I know this will come as a shock) the > fact is I'm 10 years older than I was 10 years ago, so I thought it was > time to make a move. I'm happy to say that as of today I am a full Alcor > member. I chose neuropreservation because I don't see the point in full > body, I figure if they're advanced enough, and magnanimous enough, to > repair the freeze damage to my brain replacing my left knee cap wouldn't > stump them. > > John K Clark > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -- Max More, PhD Strategic Philosopher Co-editor, *The Transhumanist Reader* http://www.amazon.com/Transhumanist-Reader-Contemporary-Technology-Philosophy/dp/1118334310/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1372225570&sr=1-1&keywords=the+transhumanist+reader President & CEO, Alcor Life Extension Foundation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Wed Dec 3 07:18:04 2014 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2014 02:18:04 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Medical power of attorney for cryonicsts Message-ID: John, you made an excellent choice - I have been a neuropreservation Alcor member for something like 8 years (A1941) and I am always happy to hear about a new member. Recently I have been working on setting up a set of advance medical directives, AKA medical power of attorney. I think it's quite important to have it if your ideas about proper medical care extend beyond the current reach of medical practice. Here is an excerpt from my power of attorney, containing the cryonics-relevant parts: In addition, I wish to specifically instruct my healthcare agent about life prolonging treatment as follows: I have made provisions for the preservation of my brain after I am declared legally dead. Specifically, I authorized a whole-body donation pursuant to Va. Code ?32.1-289 et. seq., to Alcor, Inc. of Scottsdale, Arizona. In the event of my legal death, Alcor is authorized to take immediate possession of my body, without delay of any kind. I ask my agent and my medical providers to: 1) Call Alcor at 1-800-367-2228 immediately in any situation where there is a substantial likelihood of my death or major neurological injury, or if my body is delivered to their care. Contacting Alcor shall not be delayed until I am declared incapable of making decisions in writing, and providers are indemnified against any liability stemming from contacting Alcor. 2) Alcor Inc, its agents and employees, including persons staffing the Alcor emergency contact telephone line 1-800-367-2228, and staff on the Alcor Standby team, are cleared by me to receive medical information privileged under HIPAA, insofar as needed to facilitate coordination of care between Alcor and my medical care providers. Alcor employees involved in my case may request and shall promptly be given access to information, including but not limited to, my overall medical condition, prognosis, extent of known damage to the brain, any issues that may adversely impact post-mortem perfusion and stabilization, and may request any available medical record information they deem useful in performing their duties. 3) I disallow autopsy, brain biopsy, organ donation or any other post-mortem procedures unless explicitly agreed to by authorized Alcor employees. 4) In case of witnessed normothermic cardiac arrest, resuscitation must be stopped if there is no ROSC (return of sustained circulation) at the *5 minute* mark, given the known poor likelihood of good recovery after more prolonged period of brain ischemia (Curr Cardiol Rep. 2014 Mar;16(3):457) and given my post-mortem preservation goals. No medical provider shall be held liable for adhering to this instruction. 5) In case of traumatic brain injury, cerebral hemorrhage, major stroke and other situations associated with severe brain edema and impending brainstem herniation, all life support activities should be stopped immediately. 6) In case of unexplained coma not of metabolic origin, such as status post unwitnessed cardiac arrest, an EEG (electroencephalogram) should be performed promptly. If there is severe global brain dysfunction, manifesting for example as burst-suppression pattern, electrocerebral silence, treatment-refractory status epilepticus and other patterns associated with poor prognosis, as assessed by the reading neurologist, all *life support treatment should be stopped immediately, even if brainstem reflexes are preserved* and I do not fulfill criteria for brain death. 7) In all other situations where it is reasonably certain that I will not recover my ability to interact meaningfully with myself and with those around me, I want to stop or withhold *all* treatments that might prolong my existence. Treatments I would not want include tube feedings, IV fluids, CPR, respirator, kidney dialysis, and antibiotics. However, venous access devices and endotracheal tubes should not be removed until after authorized by Alcor. 8) Immediately after I am pronounced legally dead, I ask my medical providers to inject, if possible, 500 U/kg of unfractionated heparin IV, to perform manual chest compressions for 5 minutes to distribute the heparin, and to wrap my body including the head in a cooling blanket set to the lowest available temperature, unless instructed otherwise by Alcor personnel. 9) If for any reason it is not possible or allowed for Alcor personnel to start their stabilization and preservation procedures in the facility where I die, I direct the facility to transfer my body as soon as possible to another facility, chosen by Alcor representatives, where such procedures may commence. 10) Alcor personnel may be consulted pre-mortem for advice regarding optimal conditions for brain preservation. *In making decisions about the duration and extent of care, practitioners and agents should use their clinical judgment to maximize the likelihood of achieving a good post-mortem preservation of brain tissue, rather than trying to prolong the duration of my unconscious life.* In addition, I wish to instruct my healthcare providers and agents as to the following: 1) I do want pain medicine and symptom treatments to keep me comfortable, even if it means I am unable to interact with others. I want treatment for such things as shortness of breath, agitation, and seizures 2) As noted above, upon my death I direct that an anatomical gift of all my body must be made pursuant to Va. Code ?32.1-289 et. seq., to Alcor, Inc, of Scottsdale, Arizona. (end of excerpt) If anybody has any comments, please do comment here, I intend to finalize the PoA documents soon and advice is welcome: Do you think these instructions are OK? Is there anything you would formulate differently or add? Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Wed Dec 3 07:23:04 2014 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2014 02:23:04 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Wanderers In-Reply-To: References: <43409931-19422@secure.ericade.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 1, 2014 at 5:27 AM, BillK wrote: > > > But then I thought about the reality of living in that vision. Locked > in a tin box for months or years to get there. Trapped in a metal dome > on a desert planet. Sealed in a spacesuit to venture outside the dome. > It would be like volunteering to go to a prison with barren views out > the window. > > To me it emphasized that these places are not for humans. They are for > our machines. ### I *will* be a machine when I grow up! I and my friends will turn these places into machines, cubic mile by cubic mile, until all is us :) Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Wed Dec 3 11:26:46 2014 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2014 11:26:46 +0000 Subject: [ExI] "NASA's 1st Deep-Space Capsule in 40 Years Ready for Launch Debut" In-Reply-To: <027301d00e9b$2182bbc0$64883340$@att.net> References: <027301d00e9b$2182bbc0$64883340$@att.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 3, 2014 at 1:47 AM, spike wrote: > > From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf > Of John Grigg > Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2014 4:58 PM > To: ExI chat list > Subject: [ExI] "NASA's 1st Deep-Space Capsule in 40 Years Ready for Launch > Debut" > > "A spaceship built to carry humans is about to venture into deep space for > the first time in more than four decades." > >>...http://www.space.com/27883-nasa-orion-capsule-deep-space.html?cmpid=558739 > > > WOW this is cool John. I wonder what company built this Orion? > You will be pleased to know the crew capsule was built by Lockheed Martin. :) It can carry up to six astronauts. The Orion MPCV resembles its Apollo-era predecessors, but its technology and capability are more advanced. It is designed to support long-duration deep space missions, with up to 21 days active crew time plus 6 months quiescent. The Service module is built by the European Space Agency, (Airbus makes more than aircraft). Graphics of the spacecraft - Wikipedia has a good article. BillK From spike66 at att.net Wed Dec 3 14:55:08 2014 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2014 06:55:08 -0800 Subject: [ExI] "NASA's 1st Deep-Space Capsule in 40 Years Ready for Launch Debut" In-Reply-To: References: <027301d00e9b$2182bbc0$64883340$@att.net> Message-ID: <008301d00f09$22691a20$673b4e60$@att.net> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of BillK Subject: Re: [ExI] "NASA's 1st Deep-Space Capsule in 40 Years Ready for Launch Debut" On Wed, Dec 3, 2014 at 1:47 AM, spike wrote: > >>... WOW this is cool John. I wonder what company built this Orion? > >...You will be pleased to know the crew capsule was built by Lockheed Martin. :) ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orion_%28spacecraft%29 BillK _______________________________________________ Ja. I have a couple of control systems buddies who went over to the Orion program. I thought it a risky career move, but it worked out well for both. spike From atymes at gmail.com Wed Dec 3 16:24:53 2014 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2014 08:24:53 -0800 Subject: [ExI] "NASA's 1st Deep-Space Capsule in 40 Years Ready for Launch Debut" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 2, 2014 at 4:58 PM, John Grigg wrote: > "A spaceship built to carry humans is about to venture into deep space for > the first time in more than four decades." > > This is hopefully the start of big things, when it comes to getting human > beings back into serious space exploration. > > http://www.space.com/27883-nasa-orion-capsule-deep-space.html?cmpid=558739 > Assuming it doesn't get defunded and scrapped, with future programs needing to start all over again, like its predecessors. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Wed Dec 3 17:09:30 2014 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2014 09:09:30 -0800 Subject: [ExI] "NASA's 1st Deep-Space Capsule in 40 Years Ready for Launch Debut" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <013a01d00f1b$e829ede0$b87dc9a0$@att.net> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes Subject: Re: [ExI] "NASA's 1st Deep-Space Capsule in 40 Years Ready for Launch Debut" >?On Tue, Dec 2, 2014 at 4:58 PM, John Grigg wrote: "A spaceship built to carry humans is about to venture into deep space for the first time in more than four decades." >?This is hopefully the start of big things, when it comes to getting human beings back into serious space exploration. >?http://www.space.com/27883-nasa-orion-capsule-deep-space.html?cmpid=558739 >?Assuming it doesn't get defunded and scrapped, with future programs needing to start all over again, like its predecessors? Ja, that would be nice, but I am not confident the USA will be sending anyone anywhere in our times. Reason: we already spent the money. To assume the space program will come back assumes we don?t need to pay the bills for what we are doing right now. I think we do. The national debt just passed 18 trillion dollars. In light of that, it is far too easy to envision NASA being shut down and sold for scrap metal, along with most of its commercial support infrastructure. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bbenzai at yahoo.com Wed Dec 3 18:33:15 2014 From: bbenzai at yahoo.com (Ben) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2014 18:33:15 +0000 Subject: [ExI] "NASA's 1st Deep-Space Capsule in 40 Years Ready for Launch Debut" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <547F576B.4090906@yahoo.com> John Grigg wrote: >> http://www.space.com/27883-nasa-orion-capsule-deep-space.html I remember reading about this 'orion' spaceship a little while ago, and getting all excited, until I realised that it's a far cry from the original Orion concept! (http://www.islandone.org/Propulsion/ProjectOrion.html) Of course, I should have realised, but still, talk about a misleading name! Ben Zaiboc From bbenzai at yahoo.com Wed Dec 3 18:34:39 2014 From: bbenzai at yahoo.com (Ben) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2014 18:34:39 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Medical power of attorney for cryonicsts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <547F57BF.7070507@yahoo.com> Rafal Smigrodzki wrote: >If anybody has any comments, please do comment here, I intend to finalize >the PoA documents soon and advice is welcome: Do you think these >instructions are OK? Is there anything you would formulate differently or >add? I do have comments. Did a lawyer take money to draft this for you? I'd be (pleasantly) surprised if this has anything but the most trivial legal force. My understanding is that if the gubmint want you autopsied, and you don't, you get autopsied, end of argument. After the autopsy, your ruined brain can probably be handed over for cryonic suspension. And I thought that if your death is even the tiniest bit suspicious, an autopsy is pretty much mandatory anyway. I kind of doubt that government ownership of our bodies is something that can be wished away in writing like this, not for a while yet, anyway. I may be (I hope I am) wrong about all this, but my inner pessimist just had to speak up. Ben Zaiboc From spike66 at att.net Wed Dec 3 21:07:52 2014 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2014 13:07:52 -0800 Subject: [ExI] hawking on the singularity Message-ID: <000001d00f3d$35bd1430$a1373c90$@att.net> http://www.foxnews.com/tech/2014/12/03/stephen-hawking-artificial-intelligen ce-could-end-human-race/ Stephen Hawking: Artificial intelligence could end human race LiveScience By Tanya Lewis Published December 03, 2014 Facebook709 Twitter514 livefyre2425 Email Print Stephen Hawking recently began using a speech synthesizer system that uses artificial intelligence to predict words he might use. (Flickr/NASA HQ PHOTO.) The eminent British physicist Stephen Hawking warns that the development of intelligent machines could pose a major threat to humanity. "The development of full artificial intelligence (AI) could spell the end of the human race," Hawking told the BBC. The famed scientist's warnings about AI came in response to a question about his new voice system. Hawking has a form of the progressive neurological disease called amyotrophic lateral sclerosis (ALS or Lou Gehrig's disease), and uses a voice synthesizer to communicate. Recently, he has been using a new system that employs artificial intelligence. Developed in part by the British company Swiftkey, the new system learns how Hawking thinks and suggests words he might want to use next, according to the BBC. Humanity's biggest threat? Fears about developing intelligent machines go back centuries. More recent pop culture is rife with depictions of machines taking over, from the computer HAL in Stanley Kubrick's "2001: A Space Odyssey" to Arnold Schwarzenegger's character in "The Terminator" films. Inventor and futurist Ray Kurzweil, director of engineering at Google, refers to the point in time when machine intelligence surpasses human intelligence as "the singularity," which he predicts could come as early as 2045. Other experts say such a day is a long way off. It's not the first time Hawking has warned about the potential dangers of artificial intelligence. In April, Hawking penned an op-ed for The Huffington Post with well-known physicists Max Tegmark and Frank Wilczek of MIT, and computer scientist Stuart Russell of the University of California, Berkeley, forecasting that the creation of AI will be "the biggest event in human history." Unfortunately, it may also be the last, the scientists wrote. And they're not alone billionaire entrepreneur Elon Musk called artificial intelligence "our biggest existential threat." The CEO of the spaceflight company SpaceX and the electric car company Tesla Motors told an audience at MIT that humanity needs to be "very careful" with AI, and he called for national and international oversight of the field. It wasn't the first time Musk warned about AI's dangers. In August, he tweeted, "We need to be super careful with AI. Potentially more dangerous than nukes." In March, Musk, Facebook founder Mark Zuckerberg and actor Ashton Kutcher jointly invested $40 million in an AI company that is working to create an artificial brain. Overblown fears But other experts disagree that AI will spell doom for humanity. Charlie Ortiz, head of AI at the Burlington, Massachusetts-based software company Nuance Communications, said the concerns are "way overblown." "I don't see any reason to think that as machines become more intelligent which is not going to happen tomorrow they would want to destroy us or do harm," Ortiz told Live Science. Fears about AI are based on the premise that as species become more intelligent, they have a tendency to be more controlling and more violent, Ortiz said. "I'd like to think the opposite. As we become more intelligent, as a race we become kinder and more peaceful and treat people better," he said. Ortiz said the development of super-intelligent machines is still an important issue, but he doesn't think it's going to happen in the near future. "Lots of work needs to be done before computers are anywhere near that level," he said. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: application/octet-stream Size: 3503 bytes Desc: not available URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Wed Dec 3 22:17:07 2014 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2014 15:17:07 -0700 Subject: [ExI] 10 Most Important Science Fiction Books About Superintelligence Message-ID: "Understand," by Ted Chiang in Stories of Your Life and Others, is absolutely excellent, bu they did leave out the fantastic "Brainchild," by George Turner. http://io9.com/10-most-important-science-fiction-books-about-superinte-1659512795 John : ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Wed Dec 3 22:18:33 2014 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2014 15:18:33 -0700 Subject: [ExI] "Gigahoes" Message-ID: *"Gigahoes* is a mockumentary web series about the escort agency, Artificial Intercourse, as they try to deal with the changing business landscape as new, better, and cheaper sex-bots are released. Each episode follows A.I.?s sex-bots out on their calls with their eccentric clients and the sexual hilarity that ensues." http://www.seriouswonder.com/gigahoes-sci-fi-comedy-web-series-sexbots/ John : ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Wed Dec 3 22:28:54 2014 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2014 15:28:54 -0700 Subject: [ExI] "Dispatches from the bleeding edge of biotech" Message-ID: Transhumanists making good! I know John, who is a great guy... I hope they accomplish much, and become filthy rich! : ) "Ryan Bethencourt seized his opportunity back in 2008. That made him an outlier: most people, after all, were seizing pink slips, not opportunities. But while the Great Recession wiped out billions in home equity and blew up companies by the score, it also freed up plenty of hard assets. In simple terms, you could buy a lot of expensive stuff for a song. And that?s just what Bethencourt and his pal, molecular biologist and fellow DIYbio enthusiast, John Schloendorn, did." John : ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Wed Dec 3 22:30:19 2014 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2014 15:30:19 -0700 Subject: [ExI] "Dispatches from the bleeding edge of biotech" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: And the link! https://medium.com/@oreillyradar/dispatches-from-the-bleeding-edge-of-biotech-7913ebb58991 On Wed, Dec 3, 2014 at 3:28 PM, John Grigg wrote: > Transhumanists making good! I know John, who is a great guy... I hope > they accomplish much, and become filthy rich! : ) > > > "Ryan Bethencourt seized his opportunity back in 2008. That made him an > outlier: most people, after all, were seizing pink slips, not > opportunities. But while the Great Recession wiped out billions in home > equity and blew up companies by the score, it also freed up plenty of hard > assets. In simple terms, you could buy a lot of expensive stuff for a song. > And that?s just what Bethencourt and his pal, molecular biologist and > fellow DIYbio enthusiast, John Schloendorn, did." > > John : ) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Wed Dec 3 22:37:02 2014 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2014 15:37:02 -0700 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Wanderers=3A_Erik_Wernquist=E2=80=99s_Film_is_Wor?= =?utf-8?q?thy_of_Carl_Sagan=E2=80=99s_Voice?= Message-ID: "The film is a vision of our humanity?s future expansion into the Solar System. Although admittedly speculative, the visuals in the film are all based on scientific ideas and concepts of what our future in space might look like, if it ever happens. All the locations depicted in the film are digital recreations of actual places in the Solar System, built from real photos and map data where available." https://www.singularityweblog.com/wanderers-erik-wernquist/ John : ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Thu Dec 4 11:03:59 2014 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2014 11:03:59 +0000 Subject: [ExI] "NASA's 1st Deep-Space Capsule in 40 Years Ready for Launch Debut" In-Reply-To: <547F576B.4090906@yahoo.com> References: <547F576B.4090906@yahoo.com> Message-ID: Reposted from my Spam folder. (Gmail doesn't like mail from yahoo). BillK On Wed, Dec 3, 2014 at 6:33 PM, Ben wrote: > John Grigg wrote: > >>> http://www.space.com/27883-nasa-orion-capsule-deep-space.html > > I remember reading about this 'orion' spaceship a little while ago, and > getting all excited, until I realised that it's a far cry from the original > Orion concept! (http://www.islandone.org/Propulsion/ProjectOrion.html) > > Of course, I should have realised, but still, talk about a misleading name! > > Ben Zaiboc > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From pharos at gmail.com Thu Dec 4 11:04:09 2014 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2014 11:04:09 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Medical power of attorney for cryonicsts In-Reply-To: <547F57BF.7070507@yahoo.com> References: <547F57BF.7070507@yahoo.com> Message-ID: Reposted from my Spam folder. (Gmail doesn't like mail from yahoo). BillK On Wed, Dec 3, 2014 at 6:34 PM, Ben wrote: > Rafal Smigrodzki wrote: > >>If anybody has any comments, please do comment here, I intend to finalize >>the PoA documents soon and advice is welcome: Do you think these >>instructions are OK? Is there anything you would formulate differently or >>add? > > > I do have comments. Did a lawyer take money to draft this for you? > > I'd be (pleasantly) surprised if this has anything but the most trivial > legal force. My understanding is that if the gubmint want you autopsied, > and you don't, you get autopsied, end of argument. After the autopsy, your > ruined brain can probably be handed over for cryonic suspension. And I > thought that if your death is even the tiniest bit suspicious, an autopsy is > pretty much mandatory anyway. > > I kind of doubt that government ownership of our bodies is something that > can be wished away in writing like this, not for a while yet, anyway. > > I may be (I hope I am) wrong about all this, but my inner pessimist just had > to speak up. > > Ben Zaiboc > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From danust2012 at gmail.com Thu Dec 4 15:47:59 2014 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2014 07:47:59 -0800 Subject: [ExI] "NASA's 1st Deep-Space Capsule in 40 Years Ready for Launch Debut" In-Reply-To: References: <547F576B.4090906@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8B304711-E30E-4452-84FC-FC8AA81F3F8F@gmail.com> The launch has be cancelled for today: http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-30333120 Regards, Dan http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00BS3T0RM -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Thu Dec 4 15:47:36 2014 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2014 07:47:36 -0800 Subject: [ExI] "NASA's 1st Deep-Space Capsule in 40 Years Ready for Launch Debut" In-Reply-To: References: <547F576B.4090906@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <006801d00fd9$a12e7280$e38b5780$@att.net> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of BillK Subject: Re: [ExI] "NASA's 1st Deep-Space Capsule in 40 Years Ready for Launch Debut" On Wed, Dec 3, 2014 at 6:33 PM, Ben wrote: ... > I remember reading about this 'orion' spaceship a little while ago, > and getting all excited, until I realised that it's a far cry from the > original Orion concept! http://www.islandone.org/Propulsion/ProjectOrion.html > Ben Zaiboc Ulam wrote about Orion in his book. From the article: ...water would have been injected to serve as propellant. This design produced the relatively small Isp of 1150 seconds... The best chemical propulsion we have is about 460 seconds ISP, but also consider, that 460 number is for LOX and H2, which isn't long term storable. You need to use all that within a few days of launch. So if you are going out somewhere (anywhere other than the moon) you need something other than LOX/H2, such as hydrazine, which gives a specific thrust in the 210-220 second range, if you insist on using seconds as an Isp measure (eeeewwww, yuk. (You know they aren't really seconds, ja?)) I wouldn't consider 1150 relatively low, but if you figure in the weight penalty of the blast shield and the weight benefit of not needing enormous H2 tanks, you still fall behind chemical propellants. As I recall, they never did work out the neutron problem fully without an enormous heavy blast shield. But in any case, I think the real show-stopper was launching all that plutonium on rockets known to explode. We would need to launch from some tiny dot of land somewhere in the south Pacific, such as Gilligan's Island as a launch site, and even then there would be a risk of dropping several tons of weapons grade plutonium on some hapless native in the Brazilian rain forest. Just the mention of Orion causes me to think back on the 1950s and 1960s. All the really good fun military insanity happened in those decades, where they were so terrified of the commies nuking us, all caution was thrown to the wind. They would think of stuff like Orion and make pitches on it around tables where no one was laughing at the absurdity of it all. Global sanity gradually returned, which is good, but boring in a way. {8^D spike From anders at aleph.se Thu Dec 4 17:23:10 2014 From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2014 18:23:10 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Medical power of attorney for cryonicsts In-Reply-To: <547F57BF.7070507@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <373240597-11629@secure.ericade.net> Ben , 3/12/2014 7:51 PM: Rafal Smigrodzki wrote: >If anybody has any comments, please do comment here, I intend to finalize >the PoA documents soon and advice is welcome: Do you think these >instructions are OK? Is there anything you would formulate differently or >add? I do have comments. ?Did a lawyer take money to draft this for you? I'd be (pleasantly) surprised if this has anything but the most trivial legal force. ?My understanding is that if the gubmint want you autopsied, and you don't, you get autopsied, end of argument. Now, gubmints seem to be a particular American problem - some kind of wild monsters roaming the countryside doing whatever they want. In the rest of the world we have governments. Potentially as dangerous (some are pretty feral), but usually bound by the rules of their own laws - and they are mindless, with multiple internal goals. People regularly win court cases against their governments. More importantly, waving the right piece of paper at a government often makes it back down, since the small part you are interacting with does not want to get into a bureaucratic struggle - most bureaucrats prefer things to be easy. ? I kind of doubt that government ownership of our bodies is something that can be wished away in writing like this, not for a while yet, anyway. Depends on how you play it legally. In the case of?advance medical directives the issue is more what doctors do rather than lawyers. In this case the?severe global brain dysfunction euthanasia issue might be legally tricky in some jurisdictions, but a doctor could easily claim that in his professional opinion that the severe dysfunction made recovery so unlikely that further treatment was not in the patients best interest. It is a set of instructions and stated preferences that are only weakly legally binding, but can be fairly powerful in terms of what people do. How strong it is depends a bit on what doctors and representatives are involved. Anders Sandberg, Future of Humanity Institute Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Thu Dec 4 18:01:12 2014 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2014 13:01:12 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Medical power of attorney for cryonicsts In-Reply-To: <373240597-11629@secure.ericade.net> References: <547F57BF.7070507@yahoo.com> <373240597-11629@secure.ericade.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 4, 2014 at 12:23 PM, Anders Sandberg wrote: > Ben , 3/12/2014 7:51 PM: > > Rafal Smigrodzki wrote: > > >If anybody has any comments, please do comment here, I intend to finalize > >the PoA documents soon and advice is welcome: Do you think these > >instructions are OK? Is there anything you would formulate differently or > >add? > > > I do have comments. Did a lawyer take money to draft this for you? > > I'd be (pleasantly) surprised if this has anything but the most trivial > legal force. My understanding is that if the gubmint want you > autopsied, and you don't, you get autopsied, end of argument. > > > Now, gubmints seem to be a particular American problem - some kind of wild > monsters roaming the countryside doing whatever they want. In the rest of > the world we have governments. Potentially as dangerous (some are pretty > feral), but usually bound by the rules of their own laws - and they are > mindless, with multiple internal goals. People regularly win court cases > against their governments. More importantly, waving the right piece of > paper at a government often makes it back down, since the small part you > are interacting with does not want to get into a bureaucratic struggle - > most bureaucrats prefer things to be easy. > > > I kind of doubt that government ownership of our bodies is something > that can be wished away in writing like this, not for a while yet, anyway. > > > Depends on how you play it legally. In the case of advance medical > directives the issue is more what doctors do rather than lawyers. > ### Indeed, the document is aimed at doctors, not lawyers, and I drafted it myself. It is clearly not strongly binding but it will influence behavior, especially regarding the access of Alcor personnel to my medical information, and it provides guidance to my PoA's. It's good to have PoA with a strong, pushy style, so he can make the doctors stick to the instructions. It won't stop a coroner but it will definitely stop a curious pathologist (not that there are many left nowadays). > > In this case the severe global brain dysfunction euthanasia issue might > be legally tricky in some jurisdictions, but a doctor could easily claim > that in his professional opinion that the severe dysfunction made recovery > so unlikely that further treatment was not in the patients best interest. > ### The instructions do not specify euthanasia, which is an active process and very strictly forbidden, but rather withdrawal of care, which is passive and well-accepted by medical personnel. I would of course prefer euthanasia but unfortunately it won't happen. Rafa? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu Dec 4 18:32:43 2014 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2014 13:32:43 -0500 Subject: [ExI] "NASA's 1st Deep-Space Capsule in 40 Years Ready for Launch Debut" In-Reply-To: <006801d00fd9$a12e7280$e38b5780$@att.net> References: <547F576B.4090906@yahoo.com> <006801d00fd9$a12e7280$e38b5780$@att.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 4, 2014 at 10:47 AM, spike wrote: > Ulam wrote about Orion in his book. From the article: ...water would > have been injected to serve as propellant. This design produced the > relatively > small Isp of 1150 seconds... > I think that was a very early design where a small nuclear bomb would be injected into a combustion chamber 130 feet across. Later in a 1955 paper Stanislaw Ulam and Cornelius Everett came up with a new design that didn't need a combustion chamber at all. They noted that if the fissile material (U235 or Plutonium) was imploded into a disk rather than a sphere the resulting explosion would not be spherically symmetrical but instead result in 2 highly directional jets 180 degrees apart that contained nearly all the bomb's energy, one of the jets would be directed directly at the pusher plate which would be connected to the spacecraft by means of a huge shock absorber. Water or cheap plastic would still make up much of the reaction mass because both are good at stopping neutrons. According to Gregory L. Matloff in his book "Deep-Space Probes" with this design much more of the energy in the bombs can be used and unlike the combustion chamber method no attempt is made to contain the explosion, so much more powerful bombs can be used and the more energy you have under your command the greater the isp can theoretically become. Matloff thinks the Isp would be between 10,000 to one million depending on the particulars. Incidentally about the same time it was proposed that such highly directional bombs be used to instantly make tunnels through mountains, it was a different time. The durability of the pusher plate was obviously of concern, It was found that if you explode a powerful bomb near a circular plate of constant thickness it will shatter because of the uneven stresses that build up, but it turns out that if you carefully taper the plate and make certain that the explosion is dead center, the plate will be extraordinary resistant to damage. And Ulam noted that graphite-covered steel spheres were suspended just 30 feet from a nuclear detonation at Eniwetok and they were found intact with just a thin layer of graphite ablated from their surfaces, so he propose a graphite based oil be sprayed on the plate just before every detonation. The plate would be subjected to very high temperatures but only for about a millasecond, so he figured the plate would be good for 2000 blasts. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu Dec 4 18:51:31 2014 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2014 13:51:31 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Medical power of attorney for cryonicsts In-Reply-To: References: <547F57BF.7070507@yahoo.com> <373240597-11629@secure.ericade.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 4, 2014 at 1:01 PM, Rafal Smigrodzki wrote: > The instructions do not specify euthanasia, which is an active process > and very strictly forbidden, but rather withdrawal of care, which is > passive and well-accepted by medical personnel. > According to the lowest form of human life, medical ethicists, if you withdraw food from a person in a coma that's passive so it's OK, but if you withdraw oxygen from a person in a coma that's active and so is murder. So according to these moral paragons it's ethical to slowly starve a person to death but unethical to quickly suffocate them. > I would of course prefer euthanasia but unfortunately it won't happen. When I note how quickly and radically the public's attitude toward gay marriage changed it gives me some hope that maybe the same thing will happen to euthanasia. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Thu Dec 4 19:43:05 2014 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2014 11:43:05 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Medical power of attorney for cryonicsts In-Reply-To: References: <547F57BF.7070507@yahoo.com> <373240597-11629@secure.ericade.net> Message-ID: <022201d00ffa$86cae970$9460bc50$@att.net> >? On Behalf Of John Clark Subject: Re: [ExI] Medical power of attorney for cryonicsts >?According to the lowest form of human life, medical ethicists? John K Clark John from the tone of your comment, I take it you, being a higher form of human life, can give us the answers to medical ethics questions, and do so better than the experts. I am extremely pleased to know I have a contact with that talent, for I have many questions in the area of medical ethics, many and daunting are these questions. Do let me offer one please. I have a friend for 2/3 of my life, came visiting this week. His 80 yr old father is in early stage Alzheimers and recognized it in himself, since he is a doctor with many years? experience with elderly and AD patients. As you know about two yrs ago I had an adventure with bexarotene as a possible Alzheimers treatment. I have been watching and listening but news of experimental results done by desperate AD patients is suppressed since the caregivers risk legal implications with regard to practicing medicine without a license. I suspended my own efforts because of a persistent problem regarding medical ethics: you don?t have a fully consenting patient. In my family?s case, I wouldn?t have been able to really explain it to the patient even back long before the degradation took place: she didn?t have the science background. It wouldn?t be ethical to continue. So I didn?t. Time passes by, people pass on; with a drop of a tear, they?re gone. Today is new day. Now I have the potential to contact a fully consenting informed patient, who is smart as a whip and knows what is at stake. Although his medical license is not up to date and he stopped practicing several years ago, he understands the risks of being an experimental pilot with medications and he knows what happens if he does nothing. In some ways, fooling with bexarotene is analogous to our cryonics: we recognize it is a longshot, but we know for sure what happens if we do nothing. If I explain my theory, show him my calculations, give him my source for bex and share my recipe, would I still be in the green on the ethics scale? John, what do we do now coach? Anyone else please? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From msd001 at gmail.com Thu Dec 4 20:28:52 2014 From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2014 15:28:52 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Medical power of attorney for cryonicsts In-Reply-To: <022201d00ffa$86cae970$9460bc50$@att.net> References: <547F57BF.7070507@yahoo.com> <373240597-11629@secure.ericade.net> <022201d00ffa$86cae970$9460bc50$@att.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 4, 2014 at 2:43 PM, spike wrote: > Today is new day. Now I have the potential to contact a fully consenting > informed patient, who is smart as a whip and knows what is at stake. > Although his medical license is not up to date and he stopped practicing > several years ago, he understands the risks of being an experimental pilot > with medications and he knows what happens if he does nothing. In some > ways, fooling with bexarotene is analogous to our cryonics: we recognize it > is a longshot, but we know for sure what happens if we do nothing. > > If I explain my theory, show him my calculations, give him my source for bex > and share my recipe, would I still be in the green on the ethics scale? What exactly do you fear would or could be misconstrued about this? I'm not sure how this is so much different than recommending a vegetarian diet or crossfit exercise regimen. Either or both can lead to harm if done incorrectly, the person actively chooses to engage in them. You're not forcing anyone to do anything. Or is there actually an ethics problem where educating someone leaves culpability with the educator for the actions taken with that information? Because if that's true, I'll blame my high school teachers for a lot more of my past than I realized I could get away with. :) From spike66 at att.net Thu Dec 4 21:02:03 2014 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2014 13:02:03 -0800 Subject: [ExI] medical ethics question, was: RE: Medical power of attorney for cryonicsts Message-ID: <02a201d01005$8efb5020$acf1f060$@att.net> >... On Behalf Of Mike Dougherty >>... If I explain my theory, show him my calculations, give him my source >> for bex and share my recipe, would I still be in the green on the ethics scale? >...What exactly do you fear would or could be misconstrued about this?...I'm not sure how this is so much different than recommending a vegetarian diet or crossfit exercise regimen... Mike _______________________________________________ I think I am ethically in the lime-green here. I was hoping our local med-eth guru John would echo those sentiments, give me a little reinforcing affirmation, or advise me to knock it off forthwith, along with a line of reasoning I can follow. Mike, what can be misconstrued, you ask? Well this: I have been thinking about this bexarotene finding for a couple years, reading up on retinoid receptor stimulants, mechanics of the blood/brain barrier and so forth. If I even suggest there might be theoretical benefits of a therapy to a desperate patient, even a well-informed one, I have no good way of knowing if it helped, or even if it did harm. I am not with him, haven't really had any meaningful contact with him in the last 20 yrs, so I wouldn't know. So I would be offering possible false hope to both him and his family, for a theoretical treatment based on sketchy evidence and by a person without qualifications. We do know for sure that bexarotene fixes Alzheimer's mice, or certainly helps the hell out of them. That result has been replicated. We have no data on humans and it isn't clear how we can ever get it unless we do crazy stunts like this one. But the worst part of it is that I would not be with the patient to follow on his progress. In the feedback controls world, that would be known as an open-loop, which is always a bad thing. That's where the hesitation comes in. Another thing: his bride would be with him. They have been happily married for 57 years so she would be qualified to make the call on the efficacy, sort of. The families of Alzheimer's patients want to see an improvement so badly, they see an improvement so badly. Regardless of what medications or therapies are being used, they see an improvement so badly. We know that bexarotene does other bad things, such as suppressing thyroid, which can be compensated with the right meds. If we get a positive result, and a retired doctor starts reporting it, we could cause a roaring stampede of other desperate patients to try it, most of whom have no access to the compensating meds or the sophistication to know which to devour in what dosages. Those already suffering from low thyroid will perish. If so, did we kill them? Did I? Another thing: you know some older people who do not have Alzheimer's will follow the line of reasoning that made methamphetamines so popular. If you have a cold and take meth, you feel better! So what if you don't have a cold and you take meth, will you feel better? Plenty of people say yes. So, OK, you have Alzheimer's and you take bex, you get smarter. If you don't have Alzheimer's and take bex, will you get smarter? Plenty of people may try it, and the results could be fatal. If so, did I kill them? Dr. Rafal, you are probably the best qualified person here to comment, not on the specific scheme (considering your professional standing I would not recommend that) but rather on the medical ethics aspects. Right now you are my wise older brother (who is younger than I am) and I will most likely do whatever you suggest. Thanks for the comments Mike. Do make another scoop at it please, and dig deep within, as I know you are capable of doing. John, we are eager to hear from you on this too sir. spike From johnkclark at gmail.com Fri Dec 5 01:12:52 2014 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2014 20:12:52 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Medical power of attorney for cryonicsts In-Reply-To: <022201d00ffa$86cae970$9460bc50$@att.net> References: <547F57BF.7070507@yahoo.com> <373240597-11629@secure.ericade.net> <022201d00ffa$86cae970$9460bc50$@att.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 4, 2014 at 2:43 PM, spike wrote: >> According to the lowest form of human life, medical ethicists? > > John from the tone of your comment, I take it you, being a higher form of > human life, Well..., I'm a higher form of life than than medical ethicists, although I admit that's not saying much. > > can give us the answers to medical ethics questions, and do so better > than the experts. Experts? How does that work? Does a kid who doesn't want to be a jet pilot or fireman or cowboy but wants to be a medical ethicists go to school and study real hard and thus become far more ethical than people who don't have a PhD in morality? I don't deny that sometimes moral decisions can be difficult, sometimes it seems that it would be immoral to do something and equally immoral not to do it; all I'm saying is that medical ethicists general rule of thumb in deciding such matters (whatever choice ends up killing the most people is the ethical decision) may not necessarily be ideal. > In some ways, fooling with bexarotene is analogous to our cryonics: we > recognize it is a longshot, but we know for sure what happens if we do > nothing. I don't think that's a good analogy. There are a lot of unknowns in cryonics but there is one thing I know for sure, even if freezing my brain with liquid nitrogen turns out to be a complete flop I won't be one bit deader than if my brain were burned up or rotted in the ground. On the other hand bexarotene might make the situation worse, or it might help, so it's not really a moral decision at all but a objective scientific one about the nature of bexarotene. I don't know enough to say what the right thing to do is, but If you want advice a organic chemist would be much more useful than a ethicists. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Fri Dec 5 02:05:51 2014 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2014 18:05:51 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Medical power of attorney for cryonicsts In-Reply-To: References: <547F57BF.7070507@yahoo.com> <373240597-11629@secure.ericade.net> <022201d00ffa$86cae970$9460bc50$@att.net> Message-ID: <03d901d0102f$ffa69940$fef3cbc0$@att.net> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of John Clark Subject: Re: [ExI] Medical power of attorney for cryonicsts >?but If you want advice a organic chemist would be much more useful than a ethicists. John K Clark On the contrary sir. An organic chemist is useless to me, until I can be comfortable that what I am thinking about doing here is morally justifiable. John here is what I am asking of you, and the others. Help me think of all the consequences and weigh the value in the right/wrong scale. For instance, I already threw out the possibility that if this works and helps Alz. patients, others who are not Alz. patients would take the stuff to try to get smarter. But my notion on how this works suggests it wouldn?t help at all if you don?t have beta amyloid plaques in the brain, but it would destroy some perfectly healthy thyroids, creating a pile of new problems. If on the other hand, we run this test on a willing and informed patient and see that it does help, I feel morally obligated to report it. Wouldn?t you? John, I see your point about the absurdity of getting a PhD in morality, and partially agree. But medical ethics is a real discipline and it of itself is not absurd at all. The way I envision it, we should be able to create a system of simultaneous differential equations to describe the good/bad-ness of experimenting with a theoretical therapy. This might be just a controls guy?s way of looking at life. Recall my adventure a year ago last March when the LA Times published a story on Targretin for AD patients. They were doing pretty well until they got down to the last paragraph, where they said: On the other hand, even if effective, this therapy could only help the rich. The medications would cost about 1100 dollars a day? I immediately got on the phone and urged them to take down the story immediately, because the 1100 bucks was the cost of a month?s supply, which is cheap as medicinal regimes go, and furthermore, this article introduced the risk that some yahoo would buy 1100 bucks worth of Targretin and shovel it all down grandma?s throat in one day, thus finishing off the hapless matriarch. To their partial credit, they took me seriously, and located and contacted the author while I was still on the phone, resulting in the modification of the article within about 5 hours. It still had the erroneous comment about being a therapy for the rich, which isn?t true and in any case is irrelevant: if only some can afford a life-saving therapy, it can still save some lives. I could use the advice of a good medical ethicist on what I did there and what the LA Times did. I feel OK about it. John, to your point of the cryonics patient being just as dead regardless, in some ways an Alzheimer?s patient is just as dead as a cryonicist. The quality of life gets so low, I would not question any AD patient wanting to try anything, aaaaanything regardless of how dangerous. I get queasy just thinking about this. There is a man here who I know from long association is one who always does the right thing, who loves humanity and has useful insights into ethics, Anders Sandberg. I want to hear his take. Anders, where are ye, lad? My questions are these: if I have a candidate who is informed and consenting, is it ethically acceptable for me to proceed with bexarotene experiments? If so, and we find the results positive, is it OK for me (or mandatory for me) to publicize the results, knowing that it may put some desperate patients at great risk, and invite abuse with possibly fatal results? If yes for the first question and no for the second, do not these two results contradict each other? If yes and yes, are those results contradictory? Is not this a classic medical ethics dilemma? John I want you and the others here to take another scoop at these questions please and dig deeper sir, go deep, dig up some jewels of wisdom for one who really needs a few. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Fri Dec 5 03:45:16 2014 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2014 22:45:16 -0500 Subject: [ExI] medical ethics question, was: RE: Medical power of attorney for cryonicsts In-Reply-To: <02a201d01005$8efb5020$acf1f060$@att.net> References: <02a201d01005$8efb5020$acf1f060$@att.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 4, 2014 at 4:02 PM, spike wrote: > > Dr. Rafal, you are probably the best qualified person here to comment, not > on the specific scheme (considering your professional standing I would not > recommend that) but rather on the medical ethics aspects. Right now you > are > my wise older brother (who is younger than I am) and I will most likely do > whatever you suggest. > ### I tend to think first of all like a doctor or a biologist, only secondarily as an ethicist. First I'd think hard about the biology, and what is the actual likelihood of helping, only after coming to conclusions at this level would I explore the ethical implications. First of all, murine models of AD are completely, 100% worthless. The whole amyloid story is a bum steer, something that should have been expunged from handbooks decades ago, but still persists, zombie-like, thanks to inertia and fear of losing face. See here: http://triviallyso.blogspot.com/2009/07/malleus-amyloidarum.html I penned this years ago but still stand behind it. This said, who knows: RXR receptors modulate mitochondrial function, which is undoubtedly mechanistically involved in the so-called AD (sporadic AD is not really AD, only a group of age-related dementias with superficial resemblance to true AD, which is an early onset familial disease). The precise cause of this dysfunction is not completely clear but fixing it might do some good. There is very little in the literature on bexarotene and mitochondria but see here: http://www-ncbi-nlm-nih-gov.proxy.library.vcu.edu/pubmed/18755147 Bexarotene is anti-apoptotic and upregulates catalase, reduces ROS. So, maybe it could work. The thyroid suppression is a typical side effect of drugs that boost mitochondrial function (thyroid boosts mitos, so boosted mitos use negative feedback to suppress thyroid, this is system control 101). So, maybe bexarotene could work but again, not because of the mouse results but for other reasons. If your doctor is willing to try, he should have first a thorough neuropsych evaluation, so we have a handle on his objective level of functioning. In this way, some of the placebo effect can be controlled. After a few months on bexarotene he gets re-evaluated, and there is an objective measure of cognitive function. He keeps checking his thyroid (TSH, free T4, free T3), take thyroid hormones if needed. Also, keep an eye on cholesterol levels, they can go up on bexarotene. If his cognitive function follows the usual declining trajectory of AD, or worse, he stops the medication, no or little harm done. If his cognitive function stays surprisingly good, we have a story. Here is an interesting study: http://www-ncbi-nlm-nih-gov.proxy.library.vcu.edu/pubmed/24434091 Bexarotene helps with schizophrenia, another metabolic, mitochondrial disease (I have a hammer and I see nails everywhere :)) Ethically, grown-ups should be able to try anything they want: Jumping out of airplanes without parachute (see it on YouTube), eating 16 whole hotdogs without chewing (don't waste your time seeing it on YouTube), fixing their AD with plausible-sounding drugs, whatever. It is right and proper for smart, well-meaning, reasonable people to try their best to understand mysteries and try to sail through dangerous seas. As long as nobody is selling snake oil, there is no question of unethical exploitation of the weak and desperate. 'Nuff said. Rafa? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Fri Dec 5 03:52:38 2014 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2014 22:52:38 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Medical power of attorney for cryonicsts In-Reply-To: References: <547F57BF.7070507@yahoo.com> <373240597-11629@secure.ericade.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 4, 2014 at 1:51 PM, John Clark wrote: > > > On Thu, Dec 4, 2014 at 1:01 PM, Rafal Smigrodzki < > rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com> wrote: > > > The instructions do not specify euthanasia, which is an active process >> and very strictly forbidden, but rather withdrawal of care, which is >> passive and well-accepted by medical personnel. >> > > According to the lowest form of human life, medical ethicists, if you > withdraw food from a person in a coma that's passive so it's OK, but if you > withdraw oxygen from a person in a coma that's active and so is murder. So > according to these moral paragons it's ethical to slowly starve a person to > death but unethical to quickly suffocate them. > ### Is this the case? Hmm, I seem to encounter terminal extubation about once a week at the hospital, and yet nobody goes to prison for it. Rafa? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Fri Dec 5 04:06:55 2014 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2014 23:06:55 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Medical power of attorney for cryonicsts In-Reply-To: <03d901d0102f$ffa69940$fef3cbc0$@att.net> References: <547F57BF.7070507@yahoo.com> <373240597-11629@secure.ericade.net> <022201d00ffa$86cae970$9460bc50$@att.net> <03d901d0102f$ffa69940$fef3cbc0$@att.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 4, 2014 at 9:05 PM, spike wrote: > > My questions are these: if I have a candidate who is informed and > consenting, is it ethically acceptable for me to proceed with bexarotene > experiments? If so, and we find the results positive, is it OK for me (or > mandatory for me) to publicize the results, knowing that it may put some > desperate patients at great risk, and invite abuse with possibly fatal > results? If yes for the first question and no for the second, do not these > two results contradict each other? If yes and yes, are those results > contradictory? Is not this a classic medical ethics dilemma? > ### If you design your controls well, you will have valid results from a one-person study, an interventional case report with self-control ( http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6689736). This may be the lowest on the totem pole of clinical studies, but it is a piece of truth, shining however dimly where complete darkness reigns. The results may confirm the hypothesis or they may help reject it. Whatever can be destroyed by truth, should be, whether it is the idea that bexarotene does not work for AD, or that it does. We need more truth, every little crumb of it. Rafa? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Fri Dec 5 04:28:13 2014 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2014 20:28:13 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Medical power of attorney for cryonicsts In-Reply-To: References: <547F57BF.7070507@yahoo.com> <373240597-11629@secure.ericade.net> <022201d00ffa$86cae970$9460bc50$@att.net> <03d901d0102f$ffa69940$fef3cbc0$@att.net> Message-ID: <059101d01043$e35535d0$a9ffa170$@att.net> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Rafal Smigrodzki Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2014 8:07 PM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] Medical power of attorney for cryonicsts On Thu, Dec 4, 2014 at 9:05 PM, spike wrote: >>?My questions are these: if I have a candidate who is informed and consenting, is it ethically acceptable for me to proceed with bexarotene experiments? If so, and we find the results positive, is it OK for me (or mandatory for me) to publicize the results, knowing that it may put some desperate patients at great risk, and invite abuse with possibly fatal results? If yes for the first question and no for the second, do not these two results contradict each other? If yes and yes, are those results contradictory? Is not this a classic medical ethics dilemma? ### If you design your controls well, you will have valid results from a one-person study, an interventional case report with self-control (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6689736). This may be the lowest on the totem pole of clinical studies, but it is a piece of truth, shining however dimly where complete darkness reigns. The results may confirm the hypothesis or they may help reject it. Whatever can be destroyed by truth, should be, whether it is the idea that bexarotene does not work for AD, or that it does. We need more truth, every little crumb of it. Rafa? It may be a case of hearing what I was hoping to hear, or wishful selection, but good enough for me. I am convinced to proceed. Here?s how I will do it. I will write to my friend and former college roommate, explain the theory as I understand it (or don?t really understand it but read about the test results with mice.) I will include the caveats Rafal offered without revealing his identity, but rather just offer the comments as from one who knows things. I will explain my notion of solvents, how Targretin is specifically formulated to get the bexarotene to the site of the skin cancer while preventing it from getting past the blood/brain barrier, and how I think using reagent grade bexarotene in the proper solvent may enhance that crossing, so the patient would take a far lower dosage, perhaps a tenth as much, and watch the thyroid. Rafal I do thank you for the feedback explanation regarding thyroid function. That?s language even an engineer can understand. In our field, we have nicknames for the various specialties. They called us the Control Freaks. Summary: what I now think is that I am good to go with this experiment, or at least to propose it to the patient?s son. Does anyone here think otherwise? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Fri Dec 5 10:20:24 2014 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2014 10:20:24 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Medical power of attorney for cryonicsts In-Reply-To: <059101d01043$e35535d0$a9ffa170$@att.net> References: <547F57BF.7070507@yahoo.com> <373240597-11629@secure.ericade.net> <022201d00ffa$86cae970$9460bc50$@att.net> <03d901d0102f$ffa69940$fef3cbc0$@att.net> <059101d01043$e35535d0$a9ffa170$@att.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 5, 2014 at 4:28 AM, spike wrote: > Summary: what I now think is that I am good to go with this experiment, or > at least to propose it to the patient's son. Does anyone here think > otherwise? > As you might expect, the authors of the Bexarotene mouse studies are very keen to proceed to human trials as quickly as possible. But there is a lot more involved than just spooning it into a willing open mouth. Quote: Requests for Clinical Trials We have received hundreds of emails and phone calls about clinical trials. We are sorry that we are unable to respond individually to each query. A phase I proof of mechanism trial will start soon to test the effect of the drug in the brains of normal subjects. We are not accepting additional subjects for this trial We are currently determining how best to administer the drug and resolve several scientific issues. These studies will take some time and we are working as fast as our resources allow. These studies must be completed before we can design a Phase II trial. We do not know when we can begin these latter trials. We STRONGLY DISCOURAGE any off label usage of bexarotene. There are potential serious adverse effects in individuals with diagnosed Alzheimer's disease. ---------------- What next? We are currently investigating how best to deliver bexarotene. Our preliminary work demonstrates that the drug will be optimally efficacious at levels lower than the FDA-approved dosage. Moreover, we do not know how frequently to administer the drug to mice. This work is essential before advancing to Phase II clinical trials and will take some time to complete. We are also investigating new drug candidates. ---------------------------- I suspect the above statement could apply to every possible treatment for Alzheimers. People are desperate. They will try anything that might help. But their attempts may cause more damage instead of helping. BillK From johnkclark at gmail.com Fri Dec 5 17:02:11 2014 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2014 12:02:11 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Medical power of attorney for cryonicsts In-Reply-To: <03d901d0102f$ffa69940$fef3cbc0$@att.net> References: <547F57BF.7070507@yahoo.com> <373240597-11629@secure.ericade.net> <022201d00ffa$86cae970$9460bc50$@att.net> <03d901d0102f$ffa69940$fef3cbc0$@att.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 4, 2014 spike wrote: >> but If you want advice a organic chemist would be much more useful than >> a ethicists. >> > > > On the contrary sir. An organic chemist is useless to me, until I can > be comfortable that what I am thinking about doing here is morally > justifiable. > The entire point of morality is to maximize happiness, otherwise there is no point in having it at all, so if it works then it's justified, if it doesn't then it's not. So does bexarotene work? I don't know, you'd need to ask somebody who knows one hell of a lot more chemistry than I do, and a professional ethicist probably doesn't even know as much chemistry as I do. Of course in some cases, this one included, nobody can be certain that certain actions won't result in more misery not less, so all you can do is make the most rational judgement you can knowing that because of the limited amount information available there is always the possibility that you are wrong. But if you never took action until you knew with certainty the full consequences of it you'd never perform any actions at all. >I could use the advice of a good medical ethicist > Why? I'm sure they have opinions, most of them contradictory, but what actual facts do they know that you do not? I think you do yourself a disservice, a astronomer knows more astronomy than you do and a chemist knows more chemistry than you do but I don't think a medical ethicist is more moral than you are; in fact if I couldn't make my own decisions because my brain was approaching liquid nitrogen temperatures and there was a problem of some sort with my cryonic suspension I'd far sooner trust you to decide what to do next than the most ethical ethicist in the world. > I already threw out the possibility that if this works and helps Alz. > patients, others who are not Alz. patients would take the stuff to try to > get smarter. But my notion on how this works suggests it wouldn?t help at > all if you don?t have beta amyloid plaques in the brain, but it would > destroy some perfectly healthy thyroids, creating a pile of new problems. > You can't (or at least you shouldn't) spend your life worrying about how true facts you have found might effect very stupid people. > If on the other hand, we run this test on a willing and informed patient > and see that it does help, I feel morally obligated to report it. Wouldn?t > you? > Yes, and I'd feel morally obligated to report if it didn't help too. > The way I envision it, we should be able to create a system of > simultaneous differential equations to describe the good/bad-ness of > experimenting with a theoretical therapy. > That was the dream of Leibniz, he thought that one day there would be no need of war or any other form of conflict or controversy, he said "there is no need to argue about science, art, religion, law etc. Let us take our symbols, sit down and then say ?gentlemen, let us calculate? ". Of course Leibniz lived long before the discoveries of Godel and Turing. > I could use the advice of a good medical ethicist on what I did there > and what the LA Times did. > You did the ethical thing in reporting the error, and the LA Times did the ethical thing in quickly correcting their error when you pointed it out to them. > My questions are these: if I have a candidate who is informed and > consenting, is it ethically acceptable for me to proceed with bexarotene > experiments? > Certainly, it's his life and if that's what he wants to do then that ends the moral debate as far as I'm concerned. And if it turns out to be a bad decision then it was his bad decision not yours. > If so, and we find the results positive, is it OK for me (or mandatory > for me) to publicize the results > Yes. > knowing that it may put some desperate patients at great risk, and invite > abuse with possibly fatal results? > Yes. > If yes for the first question and no for the second, do not these two > results contradict each other? > Yes. > If yes and yes, are those results contradictory? > No. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Fri Dec 5 19:34:13 2014 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2014 11:34:13 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Medical power of attorney for cryonicsts In-Reply-To: References: <547F57BF.7070507@yahoo.com> <373240597-11629@secure.ericade.net> <022201d00ffa$86cae970$9460bc50$@att.net> <03d901d0102f$ffa69940$fef3cbc0$@att.net> Message-ID: <006201d010c2$74255d50$5c7017f0$@att.net> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of John Clark Sent: Friday, December 05, 2014 9:02 AM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] Medical power of attorney for cryonicsts ? >>?I could use the advice of a good medical ethicist >?Why? I'm sure they have opinions, most of them contradictory, but what actual facts do they know that you do not? I think you do yourself a disservice? Thanks John, this post did dig deeper and contained useful insights. Regarding medical ethics, this is something I think about a lot. Back in the old days, a doctor by the name of John Harvey Kellogg was a most innovative sort. He was the guy who invented corn flakes and a lot of other stuff in the health field from about 1875 to 1930s. He did a lot of experimental therapies before the days of lawsuits, before hospitals had ethics boards, so doctors were on their own. When people had very little access to information, the local doctor was revered, the most scientifically literate person in many communities, not just in medicine but in all areas of science. A perfect example of where Kellogg could have used a good medical ethicist was in his experimental treatments of asthma using radon inhalers. He killed an unknown number of patients with that, but they generally didn?t perish until several years after the treatments so no cause and effect was established experimentally or observationally. A medical ethicist would have required Dr. Kellogg to follow up on those patients who received the experimental treatment and the link between radon and lung cancer would have been found earlier than it was. In Kellogg?s defense, he saved way more patients than he slew, by promoting low-fat diets, exercise, and complete abstinence from tobacco, recreational drugs and alcohol. No doubt people who followed his advice were healthier. He was ahead of his time in many areas. But he did slay perhaps hundreds with the radon. >?You can't (or at least you shouldn't) spend your life worrying about how true facts you have found might effect very stupid people? Ja, the reason this is different is that I am not offering some diet fad or cosmetic therapy. If this appears to work but it is hard to tell, and I publicize it, there is a very real risk that the medication doesn?t help at all (the amyloid plaque model very well might be wrong, as Rafal pointed out) but we know it does harm in other ways. This could be the modern radon inhaler. I can easily imagine Dr. Kellogg?s patients reporting that they felt better right after he killed them with that stuff, with a death sentence that took several years to be carried out. I have no feasible way to monitor the patient, so it is an open loop from my perspective. The person who can monitor the patient lacks scientific sophistication and certainly lacks an objective viewpoint from which to evaluate the patient. There is high risk of false positive reporting. Understatement: in these cases, false positive feedback is nearly assured. People cling to hope, even the false variety. Religion incorporated is my evidence. I read over Rafal?s studies and his commentary, and I am now thinking there is a good chance the beta-amyloid theory is all wrong anyway. We know we can cure the hell outta mice, and we know that bexarotene does cross the blood/brain barrier in mice, and we know it doesn?t cross very well in humans, we know that Targretin is specifically formulated to minimize barrier crossing, and we know the beta-am in Alz. mice brains is the same gunk that human Alz. patients get. But the mechanisms for how it is helping the mice is different (we think) from the mechanism which causes neuron damage in humans. But we might be wrong, and I am not a doctor, I?m just an engineer. I don?t even want to be fooling with this, I really don?t. I chose to not go to medical school, because I get too tangled up in ethics problems. I would have gone crazy by now had I chosen that route. So all I am offering is a way to get more of the bexarotene to cross into human brains. This allows a lower dose which (I expect) would minimize the harmful side effects, which are numerous and serious, and need to be compensated in experimental patients, otherwise bexarotene itself can cause symptoms that mimic the disease it is thought to treat. Now that?s a hell of a note. Regarding very stupid people, I do object to that. Reason: the models for Alzheimers disease are so damn complicated and cotradictory, they are nearly overwhelming even for the scientifically sophisticated. If a person feels their brains slipping away, I see no reason to doubt either their intelligence or sincerity if they grasp at any straw, anything. That isn?t stupidity, it?s well-justified desperation. I don?t want to offer a straw which is just going to make a bad situation worse. If you were referring to non-Alzheimer?s bex abusers, well, even there, it is conceivable that a smart person will fear the disease so much they will self-diagnose incorrectly that they have the disease. How many of us here have blanked, or temporarily forgotten a name you knew for years? It happens, and it has nothing to do with Alzheimer?s. If a person is like me, where the only thing they perceive in themselves of value is their brain, and they might panic and over-react at temporarily stumbling on the name of a friend. > If yes and yes, are those results contradictory? No. John K Clark OK John thanks. Parting shot please, for anyone who gets thinking they are qualified to be a medical ethicist: go hang out at the local nursing home, particularly the memory care specialists. Go there just one day, just an afternoon, talk, watch and listen. Talk to the patients and talk to the staff. If you can spend just a few hours there and come away still feeling you always know the right thing to do, then I want you to be my personal medical ethicist. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sjv2006 at gmail.com Fri Dec 5 20:17:21 2014 From: sjv2006 at gmail.com (Stephen Van Sickle) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2014 12:17:21 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Medical power of attorney for cryonicsts In-Reply-To: <006201d010c2$74255d50$5c7017f0$@att.net> References: <547F57BF.7070507@yahoo.com> <373240597-11629@secure.ericade.net> <022201d00ffa$86cae970$9460bc50$@att.net> <03d901d0102f$ffa69940$fef3cbc0$@att.net> <006201d010c2$74255d50$5c7017f0$@att.net> Message-ID: *So all I am offering is a way to get more of the bexarotene to cross into human brains.* Careful, there. Just because a solvent crosses the BBB, and a molecule dissolves in the solvent, it does not automatically follow that the molecule will cross the BBB. If it were that simple, there are hundreds if not thousands of drugs it would be used with. Unless I am missing something here...I have not followed this thread closely. steve vs On Fri, Dec 5, 2014 at 11:34 AM, spike wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] *On > Behalf Of *John Clark > *Sent:* Friday, December 05, 2014 9:02 AM > *To:* ExI chat list > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Medical power of attorney for cryonicsts > > > > ? > > >>?I could use the advice of a good medical ethicist > > > >?Why? I'm sure they have opinions, most of them contradictory, but what > actual facts do they know that you do not? I think you do yourself a > disservice? > > Thanks John, this post did dig deeper and contained useful insights. > > Regarding medical ethics, this is something I think about a lot. Back in > the old days, a doctor by the name of John Harvey Kellogg was a most > innovative sort. He was the guy who invented corn flakes and a lot of > other stuff in the health field from about 1875 to 1930s. He did a lot of > experimental therapies before the days of lawsuits, before hospitals had > ethics boards, so doctors were on their own. When people had very little > access to information, the local doctor was revered, the most > scientifically literate person in many communities, not just in medicine > but in all areas of science. > > A perfect example of where Kellogg could have used a good medical ethicist > was in his experimental treatments of asthma using radon inhalers. He > killed an unknown number of patients with that, but they generally didn?t > perish until several years after the treatments so no cause and effect was > established experimentally or observationally. A medical ethicist would > have required Dr. Kellogg to follow up on those patients who received the > experimental treatment and the link between radon and lung cancer would > have been found earlier than it was. > > In Kellogg?s defense, he saved way more patients than he slew, by > promoting low-fat diets, exercise, and complete abstinence from tobacco, > recreational drugs and alcohol. No doubt people who followed his advice > were healthier. He was ahead of his time in many areas. But he did slay > perhaps hundreds with the radon. > > >?You can't (or at least you shouldn't) spend your life worrying about > how true facts you have found might effect very stupid people? > > > > Ja, the reason this is different is that I am not offering some diet fad > or cosmetic therapy. If this appears to work but it is hard to tell, and I > publicize it, there is a very real risk that the medication doesn?t help at > all (the amyloid plaque model very well might be wrong, as Rafal pointed > out) but we know it does harm in other ways. This could be the modern > radon inhaler. I can easily imagine Dr. Kellogg?s patients reporting that > they felt better right after he killed them with that stuff, with a death > sentence that took several years to be carried out. > > > > I have no feasible way to monitor the patient, so it is an open loop from > my perspective. The person who can monitor the patient lacks scientific > sophistication and certainly lacks an objective viewpoint from which to > evaluate the patient. There is high risk of false positive reporting. > Understatement: in these cases, false positive feedback is nearly assured. > People cling to hope, even the false variety. Religion incorporated is my > evidence. > > > > I read over Rafal?s studies and his commentary, and I am now thinking > there is a good chance the beta-amyloid theory is all wrong anyway. We > know we can cure the hell outta mice, and we know that bexarotene does > cross the blood/brain barrier in mice, and we know it doesn?t cross very > well in humans, we know that Targretin is specifically formulated to > minimize barrier crossing, and we know the beta-am in Alz. mice brains is > the same gunk that human Alz. patients get. But the mechanisms for how it > is helping the mice is different (we think) from the mechanism which causes > neuron damage in humans. But we might be wrong, and I am not a doctor, I?m > just an engineer. I don?t even want to be fooling with this, I really > don?t. I chose to not go to medical school, because I get too tangled up > in ethics problems. I would have gone crazy by now had I chosen that > route. > > > > So all I am offering is a way to get more of the bexarotene to cross into > human brains. This allows a lower dose which (I expect) would minimize > the harmful side effects, which are numerous and serious, and need to be > compensated in experimental patients, otherwise bexarotene itself can cause > symptoms that mimic the disease it is thought to treat. Now that?s a hell > of a note. > > > > Regarding very stupid people, I do object to that. Reason: the models for > Alzheimers disease are so damn complicated and cotradictory, they are > nearly overwhelming even for the scientifically sophisticated. If a person > feels their brains slipping away, I see no reason to doubt either their > intelligence or sincerity if they grasp at any straw, anything. That isn?t > stupidity, it?s well-justified desperation. I don?t want to offer a straw > which is just going to make a bad situation worse. > > > > If you were referring to non-Alzheimer?s bex abusers, well, even there, it > is conceivable that a smart person will fear the disease so much they will > self-diagnose incorrectly that they have the disease. How many of us here > have blanked, or temporarily forgotten a name you knew for years? It > happens, and it has nothing to do with Alzheimer?s. If a person is like > me, where the only thing they perceive in themselves of value is their > brain, and they might panic and over-react at temporarily stumbling on the > name of a friend. > > > > > > > > > If yes and yes, are those results contradictory? > > > > No. John K Clark > > OK John thanks. > > Parting shot please, for anyone who gets thinking they are qualified to be > a medical ethicist: go hang out at the local nursing home, particularly the > memory care specialists. Go there just one day, just an afternoon, talk, > watch and listen. Talk to the patients and talk to the staff. If you can > spend just a few hours there and come away still feeling you always know > the right thing to do, then I want you to be my personal medical ethicist. > > spike > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sjv2006 at gmail.com Fri Dec 5 20:19:08 2014 From: sjv2006 at gmail.com (Stephen Van Sickle) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2014 12:19:08 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Medical power of attorney for cryonicsts In-Reply-To: References: <547F57BF.7070507@yahoo.com> <373240597-11629@secure.ericade.net> <022201d00ffa$86cae970$9460bc50$@att.net> <03d901d0102f$ffa69940$fef3cbc0$@att.net> <006201d010c2$74255d50$5c7017f0$@att.net> Message-ID: Well, shoot.... No offence intended, anyone. And this isn't cryonet. Not my day... s On Fri, Dec 5, 2014 at 12:17 PM, Stephen Van Sickle wrote: > > > > > > *So all I am offering is a way to get more of the bexarotene to cross into > human brains.* > Careful, there. Just because a solvent crosses the BBB, and a molecule > dissolves in the solvent, it does not automatically follow that the > molecule will cross the BBB. If it were that simple, there are hundreds if > not thousands of drugs it would be used with. Unless I am missing > something here...I have not followed this thread closely. > > steve vs > > > > > > On Fri, Dec 5, 2014 at 11:34 AM, spike wrote: > >> >> >> >> >> *From:* extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] *On >> Behalf Of *John Clark >> *Sent:* Friday, December 05, 2014 9:02 AM >> *To:* ExI chat list >> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Medical power of attorney for cryonicsts >> >> >> >> ? >> >> >>?I could use the advice of a good medical ethicist >> >> >> >?Why? I'm sure they have opinions, most of them contradictory, but what >> actual facts do they know that you do not? I think you do yourself a >> disservice? >> >> Thanks John, this post did dig deeper and contained useful insights. >> >> Regarding medical ethics, this is something I think about a lot. Back in >> the old days, a doctor by the name of John Harvey Kellogg was a most >> innovative sort. He was the guy who invented corn flakes and a lot of >> other stuff in the health field from about 1875 to 1930s. He did a lot of >> experimental therapies before the days of lawsuits, before hospitals had >> ethics boards, so doctors were on their own. When people had very little >> access to information, the local doctor was revered, the most >> scientifically literate person in many communities, not just in medicine >> but in all areas of science. >> >> A perfect example of where Kellogg could have used a good medical >> ethicist was in his experimental treatments of asthma using radon >> inhalers. He killed an unknown number of patients with that, but they >> generally didn?t perish until several years after the treatments so no >> cause and effect was established experimentally or observationally. A >> medical ethicist would have required Dr. Kellogg to follow up on those >> patients who received the experimental treatment and the link between radon >> and lung cancer would have been found earlier than it was. >> >> In Kellogg?s defense, he saved way more patients than he slew, by >> promoting low-fat diets, exercise, and complete abstinence from tobacco, >> recreational drugs and alcohol. No doubt people who followed his advice >> were healthier. He was ahead of his time in many areas. But he did slay >> perhaps hundreds with the radon. >> >> >?You can't (or at least you shouldn't) spend your life worrying about >> how true facts you have found might effect very stupid people? >> >> >> >> Ja, the reason this is different is that I am not offering some diet fad >> or cosmetic therapy. If this appears to work but it is hard to tell, and I >> publicize it, there is a very real risk that the medication doesn?t help at >> all (the amyloid plaque model very well might be wrong, as Rafal pointed >> out) but we know it does harm in other ways. This could be the modern >> radon inhaler. I can easily imagine Dr. Kellogg?s patients reporting that >> they felt better right after he killed them with that stuff, with a death >> sentence that took several years to be carried out. >> >> >> >> I have no feasible way to monitor the patient, so it is an open loop from >> my perspective. The person who can monitor the patient lacks scientific >> sophistication and certainly lacks an objective viewpoint from which to >> evaluate the patient. There is high risk of false positive reporting. >> Understatement: in these cases, false positive feedback is nearly assured. >> People cling to hope, even the false variety. Religion incorporated is my >> evidence. >> >> >> >> I read over Rafal?s studies and his commentary, and I am now thinking >> there is a good chance the beta-amyloid theory is all wrong anyway. We >> know we can cure the hell outta mice, and we know that bexarotene does >> cross the blood/brain barrier in mice, and we know it doesn?t cross very >> well in humans, we know that Targretin is specifically formulated to >> minimize barrier crossing, and we know the beta-am in Alz. mice brains is >> the same gunk that human Alz. patients get. But the mechanisms for how it >> is helping the mice is different (we think) from the mechanism which causes >> neuron damage in humans. But we might be wrong, and I am not a doctor, I?m >> just an engineer. I don?t even want to be fooling with this, I really >> don?t. I chose to not go to medical school, because I get too tangled up >> in ethics problems. I would have gone crazy by now had I chosen that >> route. >> >> >> >> So all I am offering is a way to get more of the bexarotene to cross into >> human brains. This allows a lower dose which (I expect) would minimize >> the harmful side effects, which are numerous and serious, and need to be >> compensated in experimental patients, otherwise bexarotene itself can cause >> symptoms that mimic the disease it is thought to treat. Now that?s a hell >> of a note. >> >> >> >> Regarding very stupid people, I do object to that. Reason: the models >> for Alzheimers disease are so damn complicated and cotradictory, they are >> nearly overwhelming even for the scientifically sophisticated. If a person >> feels their brains slipping away, I see no reason to doubt either their >> intelligence or sincerity if they grasp at any straw, anything. That isn?t >> stupidity, it?s well-justified desperation. I don?t want to offer a straw >> which is just going to make a bad situation worse. >> >> >> >> If you were referring to non-Alzheimer?s bex abusers, well, even there, >> it is conceivable that a smart person will fear the disease so much they >> will self-diagnose incorrectly that they have the disease. How many of us >> here have blanked, or temporarily forgotten a name you knew for years? It >> happens, and it has nothing to do with Alzheimer?s. If a person is like >> me, where the only thing they perceive in themselves of value is their >> brain, and they might panic and over-react at temporarily stumbling on the >> name of a friend. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > If yes and yes, are those results contradictory? >> >> >> >> No. John K Clark >> >> OK John thanks. >> >> Parting shot please, for anyone who gets thinking they are qualified to >> be a medical ethicist: go hang out at the local nursing home, particularly >> the memory care specialists. Go there just one day, just an afternoon, >> talk, watch and listen. Talk to the patients and talk to the staff. If >> you can spend just a few hours there and come away still feeling you always >> know the right thing to do, then I want you to be my personal medical >> ethicist. >> >> spike >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From listsb at infinitefaculty.org Fri Dec 5 20:48:03 2014 From: listsb at infinitefaculty.org (Brian Manning Delaney) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2014 21:48:03 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Medical power of attorney for cryonicsts In-Reply-To: <006201d010c2$74255d50$5c7017f0$@att.net> References: <547F57BF.7070507@yahoo.com> <373240597-11629@secure.ericade.net> <022201d00ffa$86cae970$9460bc50$@att.net> <03d901d0102f$ffa69940$fef3cbc0$@att.net> <006201d010c2$74255d50$5c7017f0$@att.net> Message-ID: <54821A03.6040308@infinitefaculty.org> Spike, just a quick point: I assume you've seen this -- http://www.alzforum.org/news/research-news/bexarotenes-effects-vary-apoe-genotype-amyloid-pathology Has the patient in question been typed for APOE variant? Might not be a big enough factor to sway your decision, but, myself, I'd be much more inclined to proceed if the patient is an epsilon-4 carrier. - Brian From spike66 at att.net Fri Dec 5 20:47:51 2014 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2014 12:47:51 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Medical power of attorney for cryonicsts In-Reply-To: References: <547F57BF.7070507@yahoo.com> <373240597-11629@secure.ericade.net> <022201d00ffa$86cae970$9460bc50$@att.net> <03d901d0102f$ffa69940$fef3cbc0$@att.net> <006201d010c2$74255d50$5c7017f0$@att.net> Message-ID: <006901d010cc$be920dc0$3bb62940$@att.net> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Stephen Van Sickle Sent: Friday, December 05, 2014 12:19 PM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] Medical power of attorney for cryonicsts >?Well, shoot....No offence intended, anyone. And this isn't cryonet. Not my day...s No offense taken Steve. We have already established you as a good guy, so don?t worry about it. You are among friends here. On Fri, Dec 5, 2014 at 12:17 PM, Stephen Van Sickle wrote: So all I am offering is a way to get more of the bexarotene to cross into human brains. >?Careful, there. Just because a solvent crosses the BBB, and a molecule dissolves in the solvent, it does not automatically follow that the molecule will cross the BBB. If it were that simple, there are hundreds if not thousands of drugs it would be used with. Unless I am missing something here...I have not followed this thread closely. steve vs Ja, acknowledged. As I understand it, bexarotene in Targretin is formulated with other chemical agents in such a way that when it goes into the bloodstream, it forms micro-clusters of molecules, specifically designed to prevent BBB crossing. We know that the BBB differs from each species and even with different individuals within species. Most of us know that the same medications don?t do the same thing in all patients. What we would do then is to dissolve the bexarotene down to the ionic level. Perhaps that would make more of it cross the barrier, but we don?t know, and we don?t know if the completely dissolved ionic form is the same as the atomic form, the micro-clusters. The same mechanism of complete solution may also cause it to be more effective in damaging the thyroid. Or if we go with Rafal?s feedback model (I like that one) then it wouldn?t actually damage the thyroid, it just sends hormonal signals to the thyroid to stand down, which we can compensate. Long term of course there is atrophy, but people can survive after the thyroid is completely removed. But if we cause that to happen when the bex doesn?t help with Alzheimer?s, then we damn sure have harmed the patient, just as Dr. Kellogg did with his radon inhalers, for radon does not help asthma one bit. I would feel a lot better about all this if we could make Alzheimer?s chimps or gorillas and use those hairy bastards as test subjects, or failing that, some far-gone patients from countries where we know they can do nooooothing for the patients at all, where even if we haul them away and try a Hail Mary treatment, we would at least give them something in return: a nice comfortable warm clean western nursing home in which to die rather than where they are, in some hungry desperate overcrowded pit. Jaysus, listen me go on, oy vey. I am as bad as I was hoping to not become, and I am hopelessly mired in yet another sticky moral dilemma: is it ethical to recruit human test subjects incapable of consent from abroad, so long as the conditions there sufficiently dire? Would it be any better to take the medications to them and do the experiments out of the reach of the American lawsuit industry? Sheesh what a mess evolution has put us in. Death be cursed. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu Fri Dec 5 03:55:10 2014 From: hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu (Henry Rivera) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2014 22:55:10 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Medical power of attorney for cryonicsts In-Reply-To: <03d901d0102f$ffa69940$fef3cbc0$@att.net> References: <547F57BF.7070507@yahoo.com> <373240597-11629@secure.ericade.net> <022201d00ffa$86cae970$9460bc50$@att.net> <03d901d0102f$ffa69940$fef3cbc0$@att.net> Message-ID: > On Dec 4, 2014, at 9:05 PM, spike wrote: ... > My questions are these: if I have a candidate who is informed and consenting, My perspective is informed by psychology research training and familiarity with human subject review board-type entities. Plus my high value on the premise Just Say Know. I don't see this example as much of a dilemma. I see everything after "informed consent" as being ethical. That's all you need--informed consent. Much is implied in that phrase, mind you. > is it ethically acceptable for me to proceed with bexarotene experiments? If so, and we find the results positive, is it OK for me (or mandatory for me) to publicize the results, knowing that it may put some desperate patients at great risk, and invite abuse with possibly fatal results? Yes, this too is ethical as long as the desperate patients have informed consent as to the benefits and the risks. If they take the risk knowing death is a possibility and die, I don't see how this is a problem, ethically speaking. It may be difficult to ensure some patients have informed consent given some impairment, so in those cases it would be unethical. Your responsibility however would be limited to ensuring accurate information was out there. You can't control what people do with information. Besides, information yearns to be free! -Henry > If yes for the first question and no for the second, do not these two results contradict each other? If yes and yes, are those results contradictory? Is not this a classic medical ethics dilemma? > > John I want you and the others here to take another scoop at these questions please and dig deeper sir, go deep, dig up some jewels of wisdom for one who really needs a few. > > spike > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From deimtee at optusnet.com.au Fri Dec 5 22:29:16 2014 From: deimtee at optusnet.com.au (david) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2014 09:29:16 +1100 Subject: [ExI] Medical power of attorney for cryonicsts In-Reply-To: References: <547F57BF.7070507@yahoo.com> <373240597-11629@secure.ericade.net> <022201d00ffa$86cae970$9460bc50$@att.net> <03d901d0102f$ffa69940$fef3cbc0$@att.net> <059101d01043$e35535d0$a9ffa170$@att.net> Message-ID: <20141206092916.24dadea4@JARRAH> On Fri, 5 Dec 2014 10:20:24 +0000 BillK wrote: > > We STRONGLY DISCOURAGE any off label usage of bexarotene. There are > potential serious adverse effects in individuals with diagnosed > Alzheimer's disease. > ---------------- Snip > ---------------------------- > > > I suspect the above statement could apply to every possible treatment > for Alzheimers. People are desperate. They will try anything that > might help. But their attempts may cause more damage instead of > helping. > > BillK > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat Alzheimers eats away at your brain until you die. It seems difficult for side-effects to top that, especially for a cryonicist to whom preserving the brain is paramount. - David. From anders at aleph.se Fri Dec 5 23:05:32 2014 From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2014 00:05:32 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Medical power of attorney for cryonicsts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <480712168-10837@secure.ericade.net> John Clark , 5/12/2014 6:06 PM: On Thu, Dec 4, 2014? spike wrote: >> but If you want advice a organic chemist would be much more useful than a ethicists. > On the contrary sir.? An organic chemist is useless to me, until I can be comfortable that what I am thinking about doing here is morally justifiable. The entire point of morality is to maximize happiness, otherwise there is no point in having it at all, so if it works then it's justified, if it doesn't then it's not. It is worth noting that you are making a *huge* claim here, but since you think philosophers are useless you don't care that a planeload of very smart people who have worked a lot on ethics think you are wrong or at least jumping to a logically unfounded conclusion.? One can actually argue that happiness is just a means to an end: a brain module evolved to guide behaviour towards more inclusive fitness. But rather few people think maximizing fitness is the point of morality. And what about other brain modules, could they be the point of morality? If you say happiness is intrinsically worth striving for because that is what it *is* (just as suffering is what we should avoid), then you end up with a rather arbitrary morality since almost anything could make you happy (you could learn to like it, have evolved to be a different kind of creature with different happiness-sources, or somebody might hack your brain).? Now, I don't disagree with you that much. I am a hedonistic consequentialist, but I do not think it is by any means settled that this is the One True morality. This week I listened to a series of very good lectures by Christine Korsgaard on animal ethics that mostly made total sense, yet were based on a totally non-hedonistic, non-consequentialist approach to what the ultimate goods were. Jumping to conclusions about complicated matters like what really matters is stupid.? >I could use the advice of a good medical ethicist Why? I'm sure they have opinions, most of them contradictory, but what actual facts do they know that you do not? They have training in reasoning about ethics, the rules and norms surrounding medicine, and how people relate to them. Some are very good at making you see important facets of a medical situation that you would miss by looking merely from your own perspective.? Anders Sandberg, Future of Humanity Institute Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anders at aleph.se Fri Dec 5 23:23:54 2014 From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2014 00:23:54 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Medical power of attorney for cryonicsts In-Reply-To: <03d901d0102f$ffa69940$fef3cbc0$@att.net> Message-ID: <481704945-19203@secure.ericade.net> spike , 5/12/2014 3:23 AM: There is a man here who I know from long association is one who always does the right thing, who loves humanity and has useful insights into ethics, Anders Sandberg.? I want to hear his take.? Anders, where are ye, lad? Hi! Always happy to do a think about things like this, for what it is worth.? Medical ethics at its simplest typically runs the issue past the Beauchamp principles:?http://www.ukcen.net/index.php/ethical_issues/ethical_frameworks/the_four_principles_of_biomedical_ethics Does the treatment respect the autonomy of the patient? (this is where informed consent comes in, as well as the right to withdraw for any reason)Does the treatment in expectation help the patient more than it causes risk? (This is where things are tricky with experimental drugs.)Does the treatment have some risks of harm that are unacceptable? Can they be reduced? (the thyroid thing seems to be related to this)Does the treatment cause injustice? (This is why I think reporting is important: it spreads the benefit of the experiment even if it doesn't work out. And this is also why super-expensive treatments might be problematic. ) I think this situation right now is fine, but you will get into autonomy trouble if the AD gets worse. At what point should others override the impaired autonomy of the patient? This is where advance directives are *really* good. Overall, I think the project is good. ?If on the other hand, we run this test on a willing and informed patient and see that it does help, I feel morally obligated to report it. You should try reporting it if it doesn't help either. Gathering information is good!? You can reduce the risk to desperate patients by how you publish the results - find a doctor and turn it into a case study rather than shout it from the rooftops. That way, if things look good, it will be easier to recruit more medical people to pursue it.? Often, real ethics is not about getting a perfect answer but figuring out where potential problems are and deflecting or ameliorating them - talk to involved people, document what is done and why, check that there are no strong reasons against what you plan to do. Nothing fancy, but very useful.? Anders Sandberg, Future of Humanity Institute Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Sat Dec 6 04:26:38 2014 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2014 20:26:38 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Medical power of attorney for cryonicsts In-Reply-To: <481704945-19203@secure.ericade.net> References: <03d901d0102f$ffa69940$fef3cbc0$@att.net> <481704945-19203@secure.ericade.net> Message-ID: <01a601d0110c$d550dab0$7ff29010$@att.net> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Anders Sandberg Sent: Friday, December 05, 2014 3:24 PM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] Medical power of attorney for cryonicsts spike , 5/12/2014 3:23 AM: There is a man here who I know from long association is one who always does the right thing, who loves humanity and has useful insights into ethics, Anders Sandberg. I want to hear his take. Anders, where are ye, lad? >?Hi! Always happy to do a think about things like this, for what it is worth. Thanks Anders. It looks like it makes sense to go forward. I am partially off the hook in a way: I am not the one making the decision to continue. The doctor (patient) and his family will be the ones to do that. >?Medical ethics at its simplest typically runs the issue past the Beauchamp principles: http://www.ukcen.net/index.php/ethical_issues/ethical_frameworks/the_four_principles_of_biomedical_ethics 1. Does the treatment respect the autonomy of the patient? (this is where informed consent comes in, as well as the right to withdraw for any reason) 2. Does the treatment in expectation help the patient more than it causes risk? (This is where things are tricky with experimental drugs.) 3. Does the treatment have some risks of harm that are unacceptable? Can they be reduced? (the thyroid thing seems to be related to this) 4. Does the treatment cause injustice? (This is why I think reporting is important: it spreads the benefit of the experiment even if it doesn't work out. And this is also why super-expensive treatments might be problematic. ) Anders Sandberg, Future of Humanity Institute Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University All these suggestions are useful, and fill me with a sense of urgency. We need to get these decisions made and get going before the patient can?t give informed consent (item 1) and before it gets too tricky to determine if it is helping (items 2 and 3.) As for item 4, HAH! Finally I get an easy question. Reagent grade bexarotene in the quantities I think might be therapeutic are only a couple bucks a day, which would make it the cheapest AD treatment I ever heard of. That field is loaded with very expensive medications which don?t work at all as far as I can tell, which is part of what makes me crazy to start with: plenty of families report positive results with medications I think are doing nothing except impoverishing already-strained families. I fear the false-positive reporting on this malady is appalling. I can imagine that Parkinson?s is another one: the effects are difficult to measure. If anything AD is even harder to measure than Parkinsons. I don?t know in the latter case from any personal experience, but it is far too easy to imagine that also suffers from a pile of expensive and useless therapies. My point: if a therapy is useless, it should at least be cheap. OK, well then, I am convinced to start writing up a proposal. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat Dec 6 17:05:44 2014 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2014 12:05:44 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Medical power of attorney for cryonicsts In-Reply-To: <01a601d0110c$d550dab0$7ff29010$@att.net> References: <03d901d0102f$ffa69940$fef3cbc0$@att.net> <481704945-19203@secure.ericade.net> <01a601d0110c$d550dab0$7ff29010$@att.net> Message-ID: Anders Sandberg: > Medical ethics at its simplest typically runs the issue past the > Beauchamp principles. Does the treatment respect the autonomy of the > patient? (this is where informed consent comes in, as well as the right to > withdraw for any reason) > That one is pretty uncontroversial and pretty obvious; I don't have a PhD in ethics but nevertheless I figured that one out all by myself. > Does the treatment in expectation help the patient more than it causes > risk? > That is a scientific question not a moral one. > Does the treatment have some risks of harm that are unacceptable? > All treatments have risk and specifying how much risk is in the scientific domain. And there is no one objective number that divides acceptable risk from the unacceptable, it is entirely the patient's decision not mine because it's his life not mine. > Can they be reduced? > Obviously if risks can be reduced they should be. But do we really need to ask somebody with a PhD in ethics to get answers to these sort of questions? Are they really that hard? > Does the treatment cause injustice? (This is why I think reporting is > important: it spreads the benefit of the experiment even if it doesn't work > out. And this is also why super-expensive treatments might be problematic. ) > This is where my opinion on morality differs from the opinion of medical ethicists. Apparently Mr. Beauchamp feels that if you can't cure everybody you shouldn't cure anybody, I disagree. And if a super expensive cure for cancer were found, something that really cured it and didn't just extend the patient's painful dying process by a few weeks, then economic and social forces would soon drive the price of the cure way way down. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bbenzai at yahoo.com Sat Dec 6 17:40:21 2014 From: bbenzai at yahoo.com (Ben) Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2014 17:40:21 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Medical power of attorney for cryonicsts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <54833F85.9020401@yahoo.com> John K Clark wrote: >>The entire point of morality is to maximize happiness, otherwise there is no point in having it at all, so if it works then it's justified, if it doesn't then it's not. Anders replied: >It is worth noting that you are making a *huge* claim here, ... > ... > >Now, I don't disagree with you that much. I am a hedonistic consequentialist, but I do not think it is by any means settled that this is the One True morality. ... Jumping to conclusions about complicated matters like what really matters is stupid.? Indeed. And, Anders, aren't you making just as huge a claim, that there actually is such a thing as 'the One True morality'? Re. 'Ethicists': "They have training in reasoning about ethics, the rules and norms surrounding medicine, and how people relate to them. Some are very good at making you see important facets of a medical situation that you would miss by looking merely from your own perspective.?" This is a very good, and important point. It does not, however, make them more qualified than anyone else in deciding what is and is not, ethical. I'm all for hunting down consequences that many people might miss, but then once those consequences are known, being the person who brought them to light gives you no more right to say "this is good" or "this is bad" than anyone else. 'Professional consequences-discoverer' would be a noble and useful job. 'Professional ethicist' is just an insult to everyone else. Also, I'm not sure that everyone who is called an 'ethicist' is actually all that good at chasing down consequences. Many of them seem to be more interested in imposing a religiously-inspired morality on other people than anything else, with logical chains of inference being the least of their concerns. Ben Zaiboc From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat Dec 6 17:57:30 2014 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2014 12:57:30 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Medical power of attorney for cryonicsts In-Reply-To: <480712168-10837@secure.ericade.net> References: <480712168-10837@secure.ericade.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 5, 2014 at 6:05 PM, Anders Sandberg wrote: >> The entire point of morality is to maximize happiness, otherwise there >> is no point in having it at all, so if it works then it's justified, if it >> doesn't then it's not. >> > > > It is worth noting that you are making a *huge* claim here, > Fair point, perhaps I should have said the point of morality is to maximize self fulfillment and to minimize pain because when one is in intense pain it's very difficult to do anything except suffer. > you think philosophers are useless > "Useless" was in a earlier edition of the guide that had many omissions and contained much that was apocryhal, or at least wildly inaccurate; in the newer edition I go into more detail, the editors trimmed it a bit but it's still a improvement, it says "mostly useless". > you don't care that a planeload of very smart people who have worked a > lot on ethics think you are wrong > Are smart people more ethical than dumb people? > One can actually argue that happiness is just a means to an end: a brain > module evolved to guide behaviour towards more inclusive fitness. > To evolution "inclusive fitness" means getting more genes into the next generation, but even though evolution invented the brain that brain my have other ideas about what it means, like having fun. That's why the brain invented condoms even though they do not help get genes into the next generation one bit. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anders at aleph.se Sat Dec 6 19:22:54 2014 From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2014 20:22:54 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Medical power of attorney for cryonicsts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <553676681-14216@secure.ericade.net> John Clark , 6/12/2014 7:00 PM: Are smart people more ethical than dumb people? The evidence so far seems to be that they do commit fewer crimes (there might be a bias here that they don't get caught or that most smart crimes are nonviolent), students with poorer cognitive ability cheat more on tests (mean effect size 0.26), smarter people are more faithful to their partners (Kanazawa), smarter people cooperate more in prisoners dilemma type games, and they tend to be more long-term oriented (impulsiveness tends to correlate with doing bad stuff). So, yeah, smart people are more ethical than dumb people on average.? On the other hand, Eric Schwitzgebel has fairly convincingly shown that *ethicists* don't seem to keep promises, follow social norms, avoid moral framing effects, or behave like one would expect a very ethical person would do (it all started with his observation that ethics books are stolen more often from university libraries). Being deft with arguing what is good might not mean you behave well. But this is mainly a problem for people who think that teaching ethics makes people nicer; ethicists would point out that the validity of arguments are independent of who makes them.? Anders Sandberg, Future of Humanity Institute Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anders at aleph.se Sat Dec 6 19:41:25 2014 From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2014 20:41:25 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Medical power of attorney for cryonicsts In-Reply-To: <54833F85.9020401@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <554641629-25559@secure.ericade.net> Ben , 6/12/2014 6:57 PM: And, Anders, aren't you making just as huge a claim, that there actually is such a thing as 'the One True morality'? I'm not committed to this view. It just made my post easier to write, rather than get into the *huge* issues in metaethics.? I think I am more of a cognitivist about ethics than a non-cognitivist, but I am 50-50 on moral realism/ethical naturalism vs. moral subjectivism/ideal observer theory (I don't believe much in error-theory).? One nice thing with working in philosophy is that you don't have to claim you have a firm and fixed theory. Some do, but many of us just try to do good arguments and see where they lead us.? Re. 'Ethicists': "They have training in reasoning about ethics, the rules and norms surrounding medicine, and how people relate to them. Some are very good at making you see important facets of a medical situation that you would miss by looking merely from your own perspective.?" This is a very good, and important point. ?It does not, however, make them more qualified than anyone else in deciding what is and is not, ethical.? Most of them would agree with you, after pointing out that what you call "ethical" should actually be called "moral". Ethics is the study of moral questions, and while ethicists are good at that study they usually cannot claim they have moral truth (there are likely some exceptions). In the end it is *you* who will make moral choices, including the choice of what morality you follow. Good ethics means that you clarify this to yourself.? Also, I'm not sure that everyone who is called an 'ethicist' is actually? all that good at chasing down consequences. ?Many of them seem to be more interested in imposing a religiously-inspired morality on other people than anything else, with logical chains of inference being the least of their concerns. But this is because you mostly come across "ethicists" rather than ethicists. The people who like to write moralizing editorials or sit on institutional review boards are often not very trained in ethics, but like to claim they are representing it. The real ethicists are hanging out in philosophy departments most of the time.? There is a particularly obnoxious kind of Catholic bioethicist infesting many institutions who have learned enough philosophy to argue reasonably well but use it to defend whatever their religious intuitions say; they make bad arguments for crazy positions with the certainty of somebody who knows they stand on the bedrock of morality. Real ethicists poke at questions in an open-ended way rather than trying to get a desired answer. There is a reason so much of the academic bioethics community became mildly pro-enhancement after Fukuyama, Kass and Pellegrino.? Anders Sandberg, Future of Humanity Institute Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anders at aleph.se Sat Dec 6 20:18:52 2014 From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2014 20:18:52 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Medical power of attorney for cryonicsts In-Reply-To: References: <03d901d0102f$ffa69940$fef3cbc0$@att.net> <481704945-19203@secure.ericade.net> <01a601d0110c$d550dab0$7ff29010$@att.net> Message-ID: <548364AC.2080206@aleph.se> On 2014-12-06 17:05, John Clark wrote: > Anders Sandberg: > > > Medical ethics at its simplest typically runs the issue past the > Beauchamp principles. Does the treatment respect the autonomy of > the patient? (this is where informed consent comes in, as well as > the right to withdraw for any reason) > > > That one is pretty uncontroversial and pretty obvious; I don't have a > PhD in ethics but nevertheless I figured that one out all by myself. Ha! Autonomy easy and uncontroversial? It is a nightmare. What about the autonomy of Pro Ana people to starve themselves to death? What about trepanationists who want a hole in their head? Suicides? When is an Alzheimer patient capable of making decisions, and when should we overrule them? What about forcing medication on incarcerated mentally ill people to become autonomous enough so they can be executed? What to do if the autonomy of one individual is in conflict with another individual? Or in abortion cases, one (or two?) autonomous individual and one preperson? What about unconscious people? What about people from cultures where consent is not individual, but done as a tribal thing? How do you do informed consent with mentally disabled people, or people who do not speak your language? What about parents right to do things with the bodies of kids (like circumcision or vaccination) when the kid is not yet fully autonomous? And so on... Most of the time ethics is easy: don't be a dick. Ask before you do something to somebody. Stop if they ask you to stop. It is the 1% of the time when this doesn't work that keeps medical ethicists busy. > > > Does the treatment in expectation help the patient more than it > causes risk? > > > That is a scientific question not a moral one. Sometimes. In enhancement ethics this is tricky, since benefits can be subjective (e.g. a new sense or body shape). But even in normal medicine it is not always straightforward what makes your life go better: do you amputate a really bad limb, or try to rehabilitate it? Is reduction of pain worth a health hazard? There are many apples and oranges to compare. > > > Does the treatment have some risks of harm that are unacceptable? > > > All treatments have risk and specifying how much risk is in the > scientific domain. And there is no one objective number that divides > acceptable risk from the unacceptable, it is entirely the patient's > decision not mine because it's his life not mine. Science can in theory give you probability distributions for risk, yes. In practice this is often infeasible: we do not know the probability distribution of how *you* will respond to a drug, since we only have population data - data which we know is biased, often from small samples, and have unknown errors too. In a surprising number of situations we actually do not have proper data even from the start. Risk is also multidimensional: the risk of pain is not commensurate with the risk of disability which is not commensurate with the risk of death - they are different bad things. Reporting all this to a patient is very complex and often not welcomed at all: patients typically want the doctor to do the "best" thing, while the doctor is trying to tease out what "best" means without confusing the patient too much with statistics. > > > Can they be reduced? > > > Obviously if risks can be reduced they should be. But do we really > need to ask somebody with a PhD in ethics to get answers to these sort > of questions? Are they really that hard? Yes. Try reading a few medical ethics cases and see if you think it is 100% obvious to anybody with half a brain what should be done: http://www.scu.edu/ethics/publications/submitted/cirone/medical-ethics.html > > > Does the treatment cause injustice? (This is why I think > reporting is important: it spreads the benefit of the experiment > even if it doesn't work out. And this is also why super-expensive > treatments might be problematic. ) > > > This is where my opinion on morality differs from the opinion of > medical ethicists. Apparently Mr. Beauchamp feels that if you can't > cure everybody you shouldn't cure anybody, I disagree. Sorry, but you fail at ethics 101 here. You have presumably not read a word by Beauchamp, and yet jump to strong conclusions about what he thinks (and no, he doesn't think that). This is why it is actually useful to have somewhat thoughtful people around decisionmaking - in order to not to jump to stupid conclusions just because somebody forcefully thinks something is right. In fact, medical ethicists have a lot of views on what is unjust: there are libertarian ethicists and there are communist ethicists (and even nuanced mainstream ethicists). But in order to argue for their point, they all need arguments and are obliged to respond to objections. Just saying "this is the way it is" is the hallmark of a layman, not an ethicist. -- Dr Anders Sandberg Future of Humanity Institute Oxford Martin School Oxford University -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat Dec 6 21:39:39 2014 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2014 16:39:39 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Medical power of attorney for cryonicsts In-Reply-To: References: <547F57BF.7070507@yahoo.com> <373240597-11629@secure.ericade.net> <022201d00ffa$86cae970$9460bc50$@att.net> Message-ID: I think it's pretty clear there is a intuitive feeling among all human beings (except for psychopaths) that some acts are moral and others are not, but as the trolley problem makes clear this universal feeling that I have as strongly as you is not logically self consistent, and there is no reason we should have expected it to be otherwise. If morality is encoded in our genes then Evolution invented it, but like all of Evolution's inventions it need not be perfect all of the time, it just has to be slightly better than the competition most of the time. So the specific skill set that smart people have that dumb people lack, the ability to see patterns and use logic to make grand structures from a few simple starting points, will be of limited value in questions of morality. If there is no consistent moral thread because none exists then a dumb ethicists will be about as good at his profession as a smart one. As for medical ethicists, you'd need smarts to handle the medical part but not the ethical part. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Sat Dec 6 21:27:36 2014 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2014 13:27:36 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Medical power of attorney for cryonicsts In-Reply-To: <548364AC.2080206@aleph.se> References: <03d901d0102f$ffa69940$fef3cbc0$@att.net> <481704945-19203@secure.ericade.net> <01a601d0110c$d550dab0$7ff29010$@att.net> <548364AC.2080206@aleph.se> Message-ID: <01f201d0119b$75428080$5fc78180$@att.net> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Anders Sandberg >.Ha! Autonomy easy and uncontroversial? It is a nightmare. There is so much in this post, I just thank evolution once more that I decided to not go to med school. >.What about parents right to do things with the bodies of kids (like circumcision or vaccination) when the kid is not yet fully autonomous? And so on... Oy, great example, thanks. When my son was born, it turned into a huge crisis, the family insisted on his being circumcised, I flatly refused, citing that it is his foreskin, so it is his decision. Against universal opposition, I had to pull rank on the whole family, being the dad. I won that one, 20 to 1, with me being the 1. Did I do the right thing? I think so. I don't understand why western minds seem to experience no cognitive dissonance when they hear themselves say that circumcision is wrong for non-consenting females but perfectly OK for non-consenting males. The hell with that! My sense of ethics tells me that infant circumcision is wrong cubed. >.Most of the time ethics is easy: don't be a dick. The modern restatement of the golden rule, ja. Thanks Anders and others who have commented. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Sat Dec 6 23:36:06 2014 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2014 23:36:06 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Medical power of attorney for cryonicsts In-Reply-To: <481704945-19203@secure.ericade.net> References: <03d901d0102f$ffa69940$fef3cbc0$@att.net> <481704945-19203@secure.ericade.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 5, 2014 at 11:23 PM, Anders Sandberg wrote: > Medical ethics at its simplest typically runs the issue past the Beauchamp > principles: > http://www.ukcen.net/index.php/ethical_issues/ethical_frameworks/the_four_principles_of_biomedical_ethics > > Does the treatment respect the autonomy of the patient? (this is where > informed consent comes in, as well as the right to withdraw for any reason) > Does the treatment in expectation help the patient more than it causes risk? > (This is where things are tricky with experimental drugs.) > Does the treatment have some risks of harm that are unacceptable? Can they > be reduced? (the thyroid thing seems to be related to this) > Does the treatment cause injustice? (This is why I think reporting is > important: it spreads the benefit of the experiment even if it doesn't work > out. And this is also why super-expensive treatments might be problematic. ) > > I think this situation right now is fine, but you will get into autonomy > trouble if the AD gets worse. At what point should others override the > impaired autonomy of the patient? This is where advance directives are > *really* good. > > Things like informed consent, help and injustice get really tricky when the patient is faced with a terminal disease like Alzheimers. They know the certain outcome. They know there is no cure. They are looking into a black hole looming ever closer. They would agree to *anything* that someone suggested might help, even if there were terrible side-effects. They don't really have much choice left, and soon they won't be able to choose. I would say that you have to be very sure that your recommendation isn't going to make the time they have left worse for everyone concerned. Providing false hope could be torture for the patient and their family. BillK From spike66 at att.net Sun Dec 7 00:01:32 2014 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2014 16:01:32 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Medical power of attorney for cryonicsts In-Reply-To: References: <03d901d0102f$ffa69940$fef3cbc0$@att.net> <481704945-19203@secure.ericade.net> Message-ID: <001101d011b0$f76593d0$e630bb70$@att.net> >... On Behalf Of BillK ... >...Things like informed consent, help and injustice get really tricky when the patient is faced with a terminal disease like Alzheimers. They know the certain outcome. They know there is no cure. They are looking into a black hole looming ever closer. They would agree to *anything* that someone suggested might help, even if there were terrible side-effects. They don't really have much choice left, and soon they won't be able to choose... Ja agree to that, thanks. >...I would say that you have to be very sure that your recommendation isn't going to make the time they have left worse for everyone concerned. Providing false hope could be torture for the patient and their family. BillK _______________________________________________ BillK, me lad, do ponder that for a minute or a few minutes in light of this particular situation. Your first paragraph fights with the second, for this particular situation runs a very high, a known high risk of doing exactly that against which you warn. So, I go around in circles. Knowing that this treatment very well might cause harm, will give (probably) false hope, will have bad side effects and might be a perfect example of *anything* anyone might suggest, do offer guidance sir. In that sense your two paragraphs are contradictory: I can't be sure that my recommendation will not harm this patient. I fear that it will be harmful. Rafal's essay makes me think this medication will not help any more than removing the pus from an infection heals the infection. If beta amyloids are not the cause of Alzheimer's but are the result of it, and bexarotene somehow causes that stuff to break down or stimulates the mechanism which removes it, but doesn't help the underlying condition as I am vaguely suspecting, then all we have accomplished is to give the patient false hope and suppressed his thyroid. I know I am leaning hard on you guys, but hey, we have been friends online for how long now? A dozen years? Maybe 15 or more for some of us? We know each other well, do we not? You guys know I am leaning towards going forward, but I have held my fire and I am still agonizing over it. BillK, dig deep sir, pull up some jewels of wisdom, as we know you are capable of doing. You are one of the wise ones here, without the attitude. We respect your opinion and your humility in the face of a daunting question. spike From anders at aleph.se Sun Dec 7 00:30:36 2014 From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2014 01:30:36 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Medical power of attorney for cryonicsts In-Reply-To: <01f201d0119b$75428080$5fc78180$@att.net> Message-ID: <572345385-17872@secure.ericade.net> spike , 6/12/2014 10:44 PM: ?>?Ha! Autonomy easy and uncontroversial? It is a nightmare. ? There is so much in this post, I just thank evolution once more that I decided to not go to med school. Dr Jones... I can totally imagine that parallel world version of you. I think you might have been pretty successful.? ? >?What about parents right to do things with the bodies of kids (like circumcision or vaccination) when the kid is not yet fully autonomous? And so on... ? Oy, great example, thanks.? When my son was born, it turned into a huge crisis, the family insisted on his being circumcised, I flatly refused, citing that it is his foreskin, so it is his decision.? Against universal opposition, I had to pull rank on the whole family, being the dad.? I won that one, 20 to 1, with me being the 1.? Did I do the right thing?? I think so.? ? I don?t understand why western minds seem to experience no cognitive dissonance when they hear themselves say that circumcision is wrong for non-consenting females but perfectly OK for non-consenting males.? The hell with that!? My sense of ethics tells me that infant circumcision is wrong cubed. Exactly! This is a fine example where medical ethicists actually find themselves mostly on the opposite side from the public. My colleague Brian Earp has written a fair bit on circumcision ethics, and the case is rather clear: removing functional tissue from babies without their consent to denote tribal membership goes against plenty of standard medical ethics. Gender does not matter. If one accepts male circumcision as OK, then there are forms of female circumcision that are OK (not all are mutilation) - but these arguments are totally not accepted by the public in places like the US. There are rather few pro-circumcision ethicists (a bit like how economists tend to come down way more free market and migration friendly than the public).? >?Most of the time ethics is easy: don't be a dick? ? The modern restatement of the golden rule, ja.? Works pretty well most of the time.? Anders Sandberg, Future of Humanity Institute Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Sun Dec 7 00:38:23 2014 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2014 19:38:23 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Medical power of attorney for cryonicsts In-Reply-To: <01f201d0119b$75428080$5fc78180$@att.net> References: <03d901d0102f$ffa69940$fef3cbc0$@att.net> <481704945-19203@secure.ericade.net> <01a601d0110c$d550dab0$7ff29010$@att.net> <548364AC.2080206@aleph.se> <01f201d0119b$75428080$5fc78180$@att.net> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 6, 2014 at 4:27 PM, spike wrote: > > > There is so much in this post, I just thank evolution once more that I > decided to not go to med school. > ### Why, Spike, med school is easy as pie, most docs are just passing smart :) Those rocket scientists, on the other hand, they are the really hardcore.... Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Sun Dec 7 00:45:25 2014 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2014 19:45:25 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Medical power of attorney for cryonicsts In-Reply-To: References: <03d901d0102f$ffa69940$fef3cbc0$@att.net> <481704945-19203@secure.ericade.net> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 6, 2014 at 6:36 PM, BillK wrote: > I would say that you have to be very sure that your recommendation > isn't going to make the time they have left worse for everyone > concerned. Providing false hope could be torture for the patient and > their family. ### Is hope so bad? Even if eventually everything goes the way of the flesh, a few months of feeling better because you believe in a placebo isn't worse than a few months of anxiety over impending doom. The sense of agency you gain from participating in a study, knowing you are doing something rather than bleakly submitting to fate, is empowering. Also, bexarotene at the doses suggested for AD (75 mg/day) is highly unlikely to worsen the situation. It may disappoint (and most AD drugs do) but it won't harm you. Rafa? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Sun Dec 7 01:00:37 2014 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2014 20:00:37 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Medical power of attorney for cryonicsts In-Reply-To: <001101d011b0$f76593d0$e630bb70$@att.net> References: <03d901d0102f$ffa69940$fef3cbc0$@att.net> <481704945-19203@secure.ericade.net> <001101d011b0$f76593d0$e630bb70$@att.net> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 6, 2014 at 7:01 PM, spike wrote: > > > In that sense your two paragraphs are contradictory: I can't be sure that > my > recommendation will not harm this patient. I fear that it will be harmful. > Rafal's essay makes me think this medication will not help any more than > removing the pus from an infection heals the infection. If beta amyloids > are not the cause of Alzheimer's but are the result of it, and bexarotene > somehow causes that stuff to break down or stimulates the mechanism which > removes it, but doesn't help the underlying condition as I am vaguely > suspecting, then all we have accomplished is to give the patient false hope > and suppressed his thyroid. > ### While I strongly feel amyloid is not the cause of AD, I feel it is possible that a causal treatment of AD is going to fix amyloid, either as a side effect or as a part of the pathomechanism. Amyloid is a mitochondrial suppressant, and us mito people think that it is produced in response to derangements in mitochondria, possibly to suppress production of ROS, or for other reasons. Mitochondrial dysfunction is in this model one of the upstream events (itself possibly triggered by age-related accumulation of mitochondrial DNA mutations, a well-known but not well-understood process), and it leads to activation of mitochondrial suppressants, which make dysfunction even worse. Bexarotene is a mitochondrial modulator through the RXR receptor, and there is a whole bunch of other mitochondrial modulating pathways that are prime targets for highly effective therapies (steroids, vitamin D, TZDs, statins, biguanides - these are all mitochondrial modulators), so I am not completely pessimistic about bexarotene. I highly doubt it would cure AD, but it could give you a delay of a year or two, who knows. Removing pus from an abscess is a good thing, you know. Rafa? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anders at aleph.se Sun Dec 7 01:03:46 2014 From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2014 02:03:46 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Medical power of attorney for cryonicsts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <573117700-17482@secure.ericade.net> John Clark , 6/12/2014 10:43 PM: I think it's pretty clear there is a intuitive feeling among all human beings (except for psychopaths) that some acts are moral and others are not, but as the trolley problem makes clear this universal feeling that I have as strongly as you is not logically self consistent, and there is no reason we should have expected it to be otherwise.? If morality is encoded in our genes then Evolution invented it, but like all of Evolution's inventions it need not be perfect all of the time, it just has to be slightly better than the competition most of the time.? Moral intuitions are a hot topic these days in moral psychology; lots of papers and talk (and yes, brain scanning and psychological experiments). I think the rough consensus is that we definitely have an evolved slot for morality just like we have one for language, and quite possibly more specific modules that bias us in certain ways. As you say, the structure does not look self consistent, and evolution does not necessarily aim for that. This is a huge headache for some philosophers: if our moral intuitions or feelings are not truth-tracking but just what evolution left us with, why should we believe or follow them at all?? At the same time these intuitions seem to underlay most everyday moral behaviour, with the kind of ethical thinking we have been discussing in this thread being somewhat rare (but potent). It is very much Kahneman's system I and II: http://www.unl.edu/rhames/courses/current/readings/new-synthesis-haidt.pdf (Haidt is very much the moral psychologist du jour; whether one agrees or not, his thinking shows up in the debates) So the specific skill set that smart people have that dumb people lack,? the ability to see patterns and use logic to make grand structures from a few simple starting points, will be of limited value in questions of morality. If there is no consistent moral thread because none exists then a dumb ethicists will be about as good at his profession as a smart one. As for medical ethicists, you'd need smarts to handle the medical part but not the ethical part. I think this is wrong. If moral intuitions were all there was to moral thinking, then intelligence would be irrelevant. But you need to be able to notice a problem, consider likely consequences to you and others, how they would feel and so on - all very cognitively demanding things. The moral intuition part is fast but inflexible (very much pattern matching), while the reflective thinking is slower but able to take more of the situation into account. An ethicist who can only state his intuitions is a lousy ethicist: they would just be a moralist pushing some agenda. What you learn in ethics courses is how to reflect on ethical problems. You become able to construct logical arguments for why some things are better than others, and this takes significant brainpower. Especially when your arguments force you to question moral intuitions that seem self-evident.? As transhumanists we do not think evolution is the last word, so we should be deeply suspicious of any arguments that are too strongly based on evolved intuitions. They may just have made sense on a stone age savannah.? Anders Sandberg, Future of Humanity Institute Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Sun Dec 7 00:59:18 2014 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2014 16:59:18 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Medical power of attorney for cryonicsts In-Reply-To: References: <03d901d0102f$ffa69940$fef3cbc0$@att.net> <481704945-19203@secure.ericade.net> <01a601d0110c$d550dab0$7ff29010$@att.net> <548364AC.2080206@aleph.se> <01f201d0119b$75428080$5fc78180$@att.net> Message-ID: <00f601d011b9$088c78b0$19a56a10$@att.net> >? On Behalf Of Rafal Smigrodzki Subject: Re: [ExI] Medical power of attorney for cryonicsts On Sat, Dec 6, 2014 at 4:27 PM, spike wrote: There is so much in this post, I just thank evolution once more that I decided to not go to med school. >?### Why, Spike, med school is easy as pie, most docs are just passing smart :) Do let me put that comment under things for which I hold a reasonable doubt. {8^D >?Those rocket scientists, on the other hand, they are the really hardcore....Rafal Rafal, I have a number of friends from college who went to medical school. I stay in contact with several of them to this day. One factor that sets them apart from me is they can make these kinds of ethical decisions and act on them, where I just go crazy. I was fortunate to go into aerospace. Of all fields I know of, that one is the most free of ethical dilemmas. In my entire career I never ran across one that I recall. Our bosses might lean on us to work our asses off, but not once was I ever pressured to do the wrong thing, or to do anything against my conscience or to rush anything out the door before I was completely satisfied it was right. There are no movies about aerospace, because there is little human drama. There are no ethics in the rocket science biz, just numbers, just lots of equations, right or wrong, in spec or out of spec, sharp lines, very little gray area. It?s so clean! Oh I love that. Your feedback analogy worked on me: the part of my brain which solves moral dilemmas atrophied to nothing a long time ago, like a muscle in a plaster cast. Now when I reach a real ethical dilemma, that area of my brain is nearly useless, debilitated from a lifetime of non-use. the best I can do is ask my friends, particularly the ones I know who love humanity, who do the right thing always, and who explain it to me in terms I can understand, such as feedback control theory ( {8^D (thanks for that btw.)) To complicate matters a bit, I bounced this question off of one of my doctor friends. He advised me to stop forthwith. He didn?t explain himself very well, just said there was just too many unknowns here to proceed, so, stop. Now I don?t know what I am going to do. But I might discuss the matter with the candidate?s son, the one who has been a friend since college days, have him discuss the matter with my friends in the medical biz. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Sun Dec 7 01:12:46 2014 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2014 20:12:46 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Medical power of attorney for cryonicsts In-Reply-To: <573117700-17482@secure.ericade.net> References: <573117700-17482@secure.ericade.net> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 6, 2014 at 8:03 PM, Anders Sandberg wrote: > As you say, the structure does not look self consistent, and evolution > does not necessarily aim for that. This is a huge headache for some > philosophers: if our moral intuitions or feelings are not truth-tracking > but just what evolution left us with, why should we believe or follow them > at all? > ### We are like the superintelligent FAI taking a first look at its moral code modules and going "oh shit, is this what these apes saddled me with?" Rafa? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun Dec 7 01:31:49 2014 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2014 20:31:49 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Medical power of attorney for cryonicsts In-Reply-To: <548364AC.2080206@aleph.se> References: <03d901d0102f$ffa69940$fef3cbc0$@att.net> <481704945-19203@secure.ericade.net> <01a601d0110c$d550dab0$7ff29010$@att.net> <548364AC.2080206@aleph.se> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 6, 2014 at 3:18 PM, Anders Sandberg >> > Medical ethics at its simplest typically runs the issue past the > Beauchamp principles. Does the treatment respect the autonomy of the > patient? (this is where informed consent comes in, as well as the right to > withdraw for any reason) > > That one is pretty uncontroversial and pretty obvious; I don't have a PhD > in ethics but nevertheless I figured that one out all by myself. > > Ha! Autonomy easy and uncontroversial? It is a nightmare. What about the > autonomy of Pro Ana people to starve themselves to death? What about them? > What about trepanationists who want a hole in their head? A hole in the head is not a fashion statement I personally am 'likely to imitate anytime in the near future, but different strokes for different folks. > What about forcing medication on incarcerated mentally ill people to > become autonomous enough so they can be executed? Forget about morality, insisting that a malfunctioning machine be repaired before anyone is allowed to throw it away is just stupid. > Suicides? As I've said before, in my opinion making somebody live who wants to die is as immoral as making somebody die who wants to live, and my opinion is just as good (or as bad) as that of a medical ethicist. > When is an Alzheimer patient capable of making decisions, and when should > we overrule them? That indeed is difficult, at what exact point does impaired turn into too impaired? But do professional ethicists have a solution to this problem that is provably correct? Of course they don't nor will they ever have such a thing because morality isn't like geometry where you can prove all sorts of amazing things starting from nothing but a few self evident axioms. The difference is the geometry was invented by humans and was designed my them to be as logically consistent as possible, but morality was invented by Evolution as thus is a tangled mass of compromises make-dos and kludges with little need for consistency. > > Most of the time ethics is easy: don't be a dick. Ask before you do > something to somebody. Stop if they ask you to stop. Yes. > It is the 1% of the time when this doesn't work that keeps medical > ethicists busy. But in those difficult cases do the opinions of medical ethicists end up being better than the opinions of those who didn't write a PhD dissertation on morality? I see no evidence that they are. > do you amputate a really bad limb, or try to rehabilitate it? Is > reduction of pain worth a health hazard? Those questions are none of a ethicists business, they can only be answered by the person with the bad limb and the pain. Maybe he will make good decisions and maybe he will not, but either way it will be his decision and his limb and his pain. >> All treatments have risk and specifying how much risk is in the > scientific domain. And there is no one objective number that divides > acceptable risk from the unacceptable, it is entirely the patient's > decision not mine because it's his life not mine. > Science can in theory give you probability distributions for risk, yes. > In practice this is often infeasible: we do not know the probability > distribution of how *you* will respond to a drug, since we only have > population data - data which we know is biased, often from small samples, > and have unknown errors too. Then we need more science to reduce the uncertainties, and more ethicists will not be of the slightest help. >>> Does the treatment cause injustice? (This is why I think reporting is > important: it spreads the benefit of the experiment even if it doesn't work > out. And this is also why super-expensive treatments might be problematic. ) > > > This is where my opinion on morality differs from the opinion of > medical ethicists. Apparently Mr. Beauchamp feels that if you can't cure > everybody you shouldn't cure anybody, I disagree. > > Sorry, but you fail at ethics 101 here. That's OK, if I had to fail one course ethics 101 would be the one I would pick. But I just can imagine what possessed me to sign up for such a course in the first place. > You have presumably not read a word by Beauchamp, That is true I've not read one word, in fact I've never even heard of Beauchamp until you mentioned him. > and yet jump to strong conclusions about what he thinks (and no, he > doesn't think that). All I know about the man is what you told me, if Mr. Beauchamp wasn't worried that treating a disease will cause injustice and didn't say "super-expensive treatments might be problematic" then who did? > In fact, medical ethicists have a lot of views on what is unjust: there > are libertarian ethicists and there are communist ethicists (and even > nuanced mainstream ethicists). If they all cancel out to zero then what use are they? I don't need the help of a gaggle of ethicists giving me contradictory advice, I am perfectly capable of becoming confused by myself. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun Dec 7 02:30:27 2014 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2014 21:30:27 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Medical power of attorney for cryonicsts In-Reply-To: <553676681-14216@secure.ericade.net> References: <553676681-14216@secure.ericade.net> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 6, 2014 , Anders Sandberg wrote: > The evidence so far seems to be that they do commit fewer crimes (there > might be a bias here that they don't get caught or that most smart crimes > are nonviolent), And smart people can get the law changes so that the things they want to do are no longer crimes. And smart people are more likely to find a way to get their opinion on what is moral and what is not printed in ethics text books. > students with poorer cognitive ability cheat more on tests Smart students have no pressing need to cheat, dumb students do. > smarter people are more faithful to their partners Is it their smartness that made them faithful? The parasitic Schistosoma Mansoni Worm is faithful to their partners for life, but chimps and Bonobos, the most intelligent animals next to humans, are not. > > smarter people cooperate more in prisoners dilemma type games, But is cooperating always a smarter thing to do than defecting, and is cooperating always more moral than defecting? > and they tend to be more long-term oriented That is neither moral nor immoral. > ethics books are stolen more often from university libraries Interesting. > But this is mainly a problem for people who think that teaching ethics makes people nicer; If teaching ethics doesn't make you nicer then I see no reason why being taught ethics would either. So what's the point? John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Sun Dec 7 04:34:14 2014 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2014 20:34:14 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Pluto probe... Message-ID: <98119E91-56BD-461E-B44D-4F3BF7903849@gmail.com> ...is awake. Still have several weeks to move our bases. Regards, Dan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bbenzai at yahoo.com Sun Dec 7 11:02:11 2014 From: bbenzai at yahoo.com (Ben) Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2014 11:02:11 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Medical power of attorney for cryonicsts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <548433B3.9020105@yahoo.com> Anders Sandberg Wrote: >Ethics is the study of moral questions, and while ethicists are good at that study they usually cannot claim they have moral truth (there are likely some exceptions). In the end it is *you* who will make moral choices, including the choice of what morality you follow. Good ethics means that you clarify this to yourself.? >Ben , 6/12/2014 6:57 PM: > >>Also, I'm not sure that everyone who is called an 'ethicist' is actually? >>all that good at chasing down consequences. ?Many of them seem to be >>more interested in imposing a religiously-inspired morality on other >>people than anything else, with logical chains of inference being the >>least of their concerns. > > >But this is because you mostly come across "ethicists" rather than ethicists. The people who like to write moralizing editorials or sit on institutional review boards are often not very trained in ethics, but like to claim they are representing it. The real ethicists are hanging out in philosophy departments most of the time.? > So what is the point of all these ethics panels? And who should be making decisions about things like whether it's right or wrong to allow parents to select the sex of their children, etc.? OK, not such a good question, perhaps, so how about: Who should be making decisions about things like whether a research proposal that involves experimenting on, and eventually killing, a bunch of monkeys, should be approved, or whether it's right or wrong to allocate money to asteroid defence when there's a shortage of hospitals, etc.? Ethicists are clearly no good for this, because all they can do is study and clarify the various positions, from different theoretical points of view. Individual people are no good, because these things don't just affect individuals. "Ethicists" are no good, because they are more interested in pushing a specific agenda than making considered decisions. Who is left? Ben Zaiboc From bbenzai at yahoo.com Sun Dec 7 11:02:48 2014 From: bbenzai at yahoo.com (Ben) Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2014 11:02:48 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Medical power of attorney for cryonicsts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <548433D8.8010409@yahoo.com> Spike wrote: >I don't understand why western minds seem to experience no cognitive >dissonance when they hear themselves say that circumcision is wrong for >non-consenting females but perfectly OK for non-consenting males. The hell >with that! My sense of ethics tells me that infant circumcision is wrong >cubed. These are two different things. Yes, infant circumcision is wrong cubed, but female and male circumsision are quite different. I remember first hearing about the female variety, and it made me sick to my stomach. That is a truly barbaric thing to do. Losing your foreskin is a relatively trivial, cosmetic thing. Surely you could understand people saying that forced removal of both legs is wrong, but forced permanent removal of leg-hair is not so bad? Both wrong, yes, but one much, much wronger than the other. Ben Zaiboc From bbenzai at yahoo.com Sun Dec 7 11:04:01 2014 From: bbenzai at yahoo.com (Ben) Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2014 11:04:01 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Medical power of attorney for cryonicsts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <54843421.6070008@yahoo.com> Spike wrote: >If beta amyloids >are not the cause of Alzheimer's but are the result of it, and bexarotene >somehow causes that stuff to break down or stimulates the mechanism which >removes it, but doesn't help the underlying condition as I am vaguely >suspecting, then all we have accomplished is to give the patient false hope >and suppressed his thyroid. > >I know I am leaning hard on you guys, but hey, we have been friends online >for how long now? A dozen years? Maybe 15 or more for some of us? We know >each other well, do we not? You guys know I am leaning towards going >forward, but I have held my fire and I am still agonizing over it. Spike, in my opinion all you can do is offer what information you have (all of it, including the doubts you have, and the reasons for them), and allow the victim to make his own informed decision while he can. I think the choice is between doing this and doing nothing. Which of those is the right thing to do? I know which I'd decide on, but it's not my decision. Ben Zaiboc From pharos at gmail.com Sun Dec 7 11:47:58 2014 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2014 11:47:58 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Medical power of attorney for cryonicsts In-Reply-To: <00f601d011b9$088c78b0$19a56a10$@att.net> References: <03d901d0102f$ffa69940$fef3cbc0$@att.net> <481704945-19203@secure.ericade.net> <01a601d0110c$d550dab0$7ff29010$@att.net> <548364AC.2080206@aleph.se> <01f201d0119b$75428080$5fc78180$@att.net> <00f601d011b9$088c78b0$19a56a10$@att.net> Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 7, 2014 at 12:59 AM, spike wrote: > To complicate matters a bit, I bounced this question off of one of my doctor > friends. He advised me to stop forthwith. He didn't explain himself very > well, just said there was just too many unknowns here to proceed, so, stop. > > Now I don't know what I am going to do. But I might discuss the matter with > the candidate's son, the one who has been a friend since college days, have > him discuss the matter with my friends in the medical biz. > Re the ethics discussion, this particular case concerns medical ethics, which is a particular sub-set of the ethics field. And sometimes there is no good, 100% correct solution to a medical problem. Probably what worries your doctor friend is his fundamental belief "primum non nocere". First, do no harm. Then secondly, that if he does do harm he will get the ass sued off him in court and have his license to practice medicine revoked. The intention of this principle is to stop enthusiastic doctors using treatments without first testing them thoroughly. "The treatment was a success, but the patient died." On the other hand, most medical treatments have some harmful side-effects, but knowing what they are, the doctor can decide that, on balance, the treatment does more good than harm. When faced with terminal conditions, sometimes extreme, dangerous treatments can be justified when the patient is going to die anyway. But there must be some basis to expect the extreme treatment to help. Using terminal patients as guinea pigs for untested treatments is forbidden and could lead to serious trouble with the law. In your case, you can give your data to the relatives, and that will move the responsibility away from your shoulders. But I doubt if any medical professional will risk his career by using an untested treatment. BillK From anders at aleph.se Sun Dec 7 13:43:50 2014 From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2014 14:43:50 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Medical power of attorney for cryonicsts In-Reply-To: <548433B3.9020105@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <618798598-26063@secure.ericade.net> Ben , 7/12/2014 12:20 PM: So what is the point of all these ethics panels? ? This: Moan, C. E., & Heath, R. G. (1972). Septal stimulation for the initiation of heterosexual behavior in a homosexual male.?Journal of Behavior Therapy and Experimental Psychiatry,?3(1), 23-30. ABSTRACT?A 24-year-old male, overt homosexual, repeatedly hospitalized for chronic suicidal depression and found to have temporal lobe epilepsy, underwent a program of septal stimulation which resulted in subjectively reported and behaviorally observed states of pleasure, euphoria, relaxation, confidence, and sexual motivation. These responses were subsequently used to initiate heterosexual arousal and behavior. The findings have important implications for the treatment of some psychological disorders. Dr Robert Heath and his team at Tulane University did a series of experiments with deep brain stimulation in the limbic system of human patients in the 60s and 70s. In this case they put electrodes into the "pleasure areas" of a gay depressed epileptic drug user which perked him up remarkably, and then they hired a prostitute to have sex with him. Success! And a follow up publication about the subcortical EEG during orgasm! OK, the patient seems to have been discharged (sans implant) and returned to a life as a hustler, but he *did* have an affair with a married woman. See http://blog.ketyov.com/2011/08/self-stimulating-brain-for-heterosexual.html for more fun quotes, and the story about Dr Heath's taraxein experiments on prisoners.? An IRB is intended to be a safeguard against this kind of stuff. Having some outsiders look at your research proposal and ask questions (like "How does this help the patient?") does wonders most of the time to stop craziness, even if they are not brilliant ethicists. *Most of the time*, mind you - they let through Kawaoka's gain-of-function BSL2 flu research. Ethics boards can be annoying when you are pushing the boundaries (hear me moan about ethics boards not approving observational studies of students taking enhancers), bureaucratic (they slowed down my project several *months*!) and they can get staffed with opinionated know-nothings. But 99% of what passes through them is also entirely ordinary and they filter out the dumb stuff.? One problem is when the medical board approach gets applied in other domains. Modern psychology cannot do many of the classic experiments because of naive application of principles (I am not talking about the Milgram obedience experiment, but simply deceiving test subjects), and the boards are showing up in other disciplines and are just making up principles as they go along - bad ethics, very much make-work for bureaucratically minded people who don't do research.? And who should be making decisions about things like whether it's right or wrong to allow parents to select the sex of their children, etc.? ... Ethicists are clearly no good for this, because all they can do is study and clarify the various positions, from different theoretical points of view. ?Individual people are no good, because these things don't just affect individuals. ?"Ethicists" are no good, because they are more interested in pushing a specific agenda than making considered decisions. ?Who is left? There are two kinds of decisions here: whether it is right or wrong to do X, and whether we should let doctor H do is experiment. The first is ethics and might be hard to resolve; sometimes societies come to a consensus (and then the second decision is easy), but the interesting questions are those where views conflict. The second is *helped* by a good discussion among people who look into the issue - having a few representatives of the stakeholders, a few ethicists, and a few neutral parties trying to answer whether doctor H's experiment is a good idea is way better than having either of the component groups just make the decision.? The basic idea is the classic/enlightenment thought that having people discuss things leads to better decisions. Not true in all domains, but since much of deciding is also about finding a compromise between prevalent views a discussion does make sense. A good ethics board does this, while a bad one is just a platform for some consensus.? Anders Sandberg, Future of Humanity Institute Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Sun Dec 7 17:00:58 2014 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2014 12:00:58 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Medical power of attorney for cryonicsts In-Reply-To: <006201d010c2$74255d50$5c7017f0$@att.net> References: <547F57BF.7070507@yahoo.com> <373240597-11629@secure.ericade.net> <022201d00ffa$86cae970$9460bc50$@att.net> <03d901d0102f$ffa69940$fef3cbc0$@att.net> <006201d010c2$74255d50$5c7017f0$@att.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 5, 2014 at 2:34 PM, spike wrote: > In Kellogg?s defense, he saved way more patients than he slew, by > promoting low-fat diets, exercise, and complete abstinence from tobacco, > recreational drugs and alcohol. No doubt people who followed his advice > were healthier. He was ahead of his time in many areas. But he did slay > perhaps hundreds with the radon. Can't let this go unchallenged. Kellogg was a religious kook who employed pretty barbaric methods to achieve his goals--e.g., circumcision without anaesthetic to "treat" masturbation. (Read his Wikipedia entry for a primer.) Also, the promotion of low-fat, high-cereal diets probably killed more people than his radon experiments. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Sun Dec 7 17:18:56 2014 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2014 09:18:56 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Medical power of attorney for cryonicsts In-Reply-To: References: <03d901d0102f$ffa69940$fef3cbc0$@att.net> <481704945-19203@secure.ericade.net> <01a601d0110c$d550dab0$7ff29010$@att.net> <548364AC.2080206@aleph.se> <01f201d0119b$75428080$5fc78180$@att.net> <00f601d011b9$088c78b0$19a56a10$@att.net> Message-ID: <05e401d01241$e2870ca0$a79525e0$@att.net> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of BillK Subject: Re: [ExI] Medical power of attorney for cryonicsts On Sun, Dec 7, 2014 at 12:59 AM, spike wrote: >>... To complicate matters a bit, I bounced this question off of one of my > doctor friends. He advised me to stop forthwith. He didn't explain > himself very well, just said there was just too many unknowns here to proceed, so, stop. > >>... Now I don't know what I am going to do. But I might discuss the > matter with the candidate's son, the one who has been a friend since > college days, have him discuss the matter with my friends in the medical biz. > >...Probably what worries your doctor friend is his fundamental belief "primum non nocere". First, do no harm. Then secondly, that if he does do harm he will get the ass sued off him in court and have his license to practice medicine revoked. ... >...In your case, you can give your data to the relatives, and that will move the responsibility away from your shoulders. But I doubt if any medical professional will risk his career by using an untested treatment. BillK _______________________________________________ BillK, in this case, the doctor who advised stop no longer has an active license. He is about 80 and is suffering from Parkinson's. The candidate patient is also a retired physician and is also about 80. I agree he was probably thinking of the first line of his Hippocratic Oath. spike From spike66 at att.net Sun Dec 7 17:40:43 2014 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2014 09:40:43 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Medical power of attorney for cryonicsts In-Reply-To: <618798598-26063@secure.ericade.net> References: <548433B3.9020105@yahoo.com> <618798598-26063@secure.ericade.net> Message-ID: <05e501d01244$edc4d400$c94e7c00$@att.net> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Anders Sandberg Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2014 5:44 AM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] Medical power of attorney for cryonicsts Ben , 7/12/2014 12:20 PM: >?So what is the point of all these ethics panels? This: >?Moan, C. E., & Heath, R. G. (1972). Septal stimulation for the initiation of heterosexual behavior in a homosexual male. Journal of Behavior Therapy and Experimental Psychiatry, 3(1), 23-30. ABSTRACT A 24-year-old male, overt homosexual, repeatedly hospitalized for chronic suicidal depression and found to have temporal lobe epilepsy, underwent a program of septal stimulation which resulted in subjectively reported and behaviorally observed states of pleasure, euphoria, relaxation, confidence, and sexual motivation. These responses were subsequently used to initiate heterosexual arousal and behavior. The findings have important implications for the treatment of some psychological disorders. >?Dr Robert Heath and his team at Tulane University did a series of experiments with deep brain stimulation in the limbic system of human patients in the 60s and 70s. In this case they put electrodes into the "pleasure areas" of a gay depressed epileptic drug user which perked him up remarkably, and then they hired a prostitute to have sex with him. Success! Anders Sandberg You know what would happen: destitute straights would fake being suicidal gay, so that some wacky scientists would rig up a bunch of electrodes to the pleasure centers in the brain and bring in harlots to do tests on him. HEY cool, where do I sign up for that? {8^D Here?s a thought experiment since we are on the topic of medical ethics in general. Imagine all the people you know pretty well, that you talk to, including family, friends, neighbors, colleagues and online contacts, everybody. If you had an ethics question that was making you crazy, who would you talk to? Are there some better than others? Of course. Could you put them roughly in order from best consultant to worst, or at least form vague groups of people who are better, some worse, some perfectly useless? I can. So how did you do it? OK then, get a group of about half a dozen or so who go into your group of best consultants, just pick your best ones. There ya go, those consultants form your personal ethics panel. So why shouldn?t hospitals have those? If my worst nightmare came to pass and I found myself running a hospital, I durn sure would form that. Where would I get my people? I suppose I would have to choose from applicants, and those applications would be heavy in people with degrees in medical ethics, ja? That experiment tells me that medical ethics is a legitimate field of study and a legitimate degree, providing a service that I occasionally want and need. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Sun Dec 7 18:14:12 2014 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2014 10:14:12 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Medical power of attorney for cryonicsts In-Reply-To: References: <547F57BF.7070507@yahoo.com> <373240597-11629@secure.ericade.net> <022201d00ffa$86cae970$9460bc50$@att.net> <03d901d0102f$ffa69940$fef3cbc0$@att.net> <006201d010c2$74255d50$5c7017f0$@att.net> Message-ID: <061301d01249$9b182db0$d1488910$@att.net> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Dave Sill Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2014 9:01 AM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] Medical power of attorney for cryonicsts On Fri, Dec 5, 2014 at 2:34 PM, spike wrote: >>?In Kellogg?s defense, he saved way more patients than he slew, by promoting low-fat diets, exercise, and complete abstinence from tobacco, recreational drugs and alcohol. No doubt people who followed his advice were healthier. He was ahead of his time in many areas. But he did slay perhaps hundreds with the radon. >?Can't let this go unchallenged. Kellogg was a religious kook who employed pretty barbaric methods to achieve his goals--e.g., circumcision without anaesthetic to "treat" masturbation. (Read his Wikipedia entry for a primer.) Also, the promotion of low-fat, high-cereal diets probably killed more people than his radon experiments. ?Dave Ja he was a mixture of good and bad. That whole masturbation thing, oy. OK so he was crazy. Most people who do great things are crazy. His was a particularly unfortunate hang-up. He was really against the safest sex. One can never catch anything from Molly Thumb and her four daughters. Regarding low-fat high-cereal diets, do consider the alternatives of the day. Meat was sold with little or no oversight, and you can be sure that it wasn?t wasted just because it was spoiled or the beasts were diseased. The meat was thrown into the grinder and made into sausage (one of the breakfast staples of the day) and evolution-knows what went in there. Given food-production standards of Kellogg?s time, breakfast cereal was a great option. Today when we can get sanitary alternatives, not so much. In balance, breakfast cereal was probably a good thing; it was cheap, fast, stores long term, it was well-suited to feeding the masses in a time when people were leaving farms for the city. I still eat it to this day, plenty of us do. Note that Kellogg began medical practice as a teenager (the proto-Doogie Houser MD) in the 1860s, even before attending medical school, which was then a 4 month course of questionable value. We need to judge him and his work by the standards of his times rather than ours. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Sun Dec 7 21:00:06 2014 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2014 13:00:06 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Stone age intuition was medical power of attorney Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 7, 2014 at 4:00 AM, Anders Sandberg wrote: snip > As transhumanists we do not think evolution is the last word, so we should be deeply suspicious of any arguments that are too strongly based on evolved intuitions. They may just have made sense on a stone age savannah.? They better have made sense in the stone age, otherwise they would not be evolved intuitions. But you really need the right model to think about evolved traits. The "goal" of genes is more copies in subsequent generations. Sometimes that means the death of those who hold the genes when their death improves the prospects for copies of the genes in others. This provides considerable insight into otherwise hard to understand human behaviors from capture-bonding to fighting in wars. The same analysis provides an explanation for the different moral intuitions we have about killing people while fighting wars and at other times. I would bet long odds that behaviors and our intuitions that go with the behaviors all favored the genes that resulted in the behaviors and intuitions. I think it is worth the effort to examine moral intuition in this light. I would be surprised to find moral instinct in conflict with the "goal" of genes within the environment of a stone age savannah. Keith From spike66 at att.net Sun Dec 7 21:24:07 2014 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2014 13:24:07 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Stone age intuition was medical power of attorney In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <07b501d01264$242b6e40$6c824ac0$@att.net> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Keith Henson Subject: [ExI] Stone age intuition was medical power of attorney On Sun, Dec 7, 2014 at 4:00 AM, Anders Sandberg wrote: ... >>... As transhumanists we do not think evolution is the last word, so we should be deeply suspicious of any arguments that are too strongly based on evolved intuitions. They may just have made sense on a stone age savannah.? Anders >...They better have made sense in the stone age, otherwise they would not be evolved intuitions...Keith _______________________________________________ Hey Keith, you are one of the lads on my personal board of ethics. I noticed you haven't commented. Private reply is OK. Do assume cryonics is not an option por favor. spike From pharos at gmail.com Sun Dec 7 22:24:19 2014 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2014 22:24:19 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Medical power of attorney for cryonicsts In-Reply-To: <553676681-14216@secure.ericade.net> References: <553676681-14216@secure.ericade.net> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 6, 2014 at 7:22 PM, Anders Sandberg wrote: > On the other hand, Eric Schwitzgebel has fairly convincingly shown that > *ethicists* don't seem to keep promises, follow social norms, avoid moral > framing effects, or behave like one would expect a very ethical person would > do (it all started with his observation that ethics books are stolen more > often from university libraries). Being deft with arguing what is good might > not mean you behave well. But this is mainly a problem for people who think > that teaching ethics makes people nicer; ethicists would point out that the > validity of arguments are independent of who makes them. > Apparently the second most frequently stolen book from libraries is the Bible. Go figure. BillK From pharos at gmail.com Sun Dec 7 23:46:15 2014 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2014 23:46:15 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Stone age intuition was medical power of attorney In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 7, 2014 at 9:00 PM, Keith Henson wrote: > But you really need the right model to think about evolved traits. > The "goal" of genes is more copies in subsequent generations. > Sometimes that means the death of those who hold the genes when their > death improves the prospects for copies of the genes in others. This > provides considerable insight into otherwise hard to understand human > behaviors from capture-bonding to fighting in wars. The same analysis > provides an explanation for the different moral intuitions we have > about killing people while fighting wars and at other times. > > Hmmm. It appears that in the US about 20% of women remain childless. This seems to be rather a large percentage if they have evolved from genes to have as many children as possible. Perhaps genes are not the only driver of human behaviour? BillK From spike66 at att.net Sun Dec 7 23:56:33 2014 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2014 15:56:33 -0800 Subject: [ExI] second most stolen book, wasRE: Medical power of attorney for cryonicsts Message-ID: <081a01d01279$6e6eead0$4b4cc070$@att.net> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of BillK >...Apparently the second most frequently stolen book from libraries is the Bible. Go figure. BillK _______________________________________________ That one is easy: the perps are practitioners of that religion which shall not be named lest we commit blasphemy. spike From spike66 at att.net Mon Dec 8 00:02:18 2014 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2014 16:02:18 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Stone age intuition was medical power of attorney In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <082101d0127a$3e0269c0$ba073d40$@att.net> >... On Behalf Of BillK Subject: Re: [ExI] Stone age intuition was medical power of attorney On Sun, Dec 7, 2014 at 9:00 PM, Keith Henson wrote: >>... But you really need the right model to think about evolved traits... >...Hmmm. It appears that in the US about 20% of women remain childless. This seems to be rather a large percentage if they have evolved from genes to have as many children as possible. Perhaps genes are not the only driver of human behaviour? BillK _______________________________________________ For most of human history, a woman's desire to have children was nearly irrelevant. Perhaps more relevant would be a woman's desire to copulate. Even then, her desires may have been mostly irrelevant until the last dozen centuries and only applicable in a portion of the world's human population. spike From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Dec 8 00:58:04 2014 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2014 18:58:04 -0600 Subject: [ExI] second most stolen book, wasRE: Medical power of attorney for cryonicsts In-Reply-To: <081a01d01279$6e6eead0$4b4cc070$@att.net> References: <081a01d01279$6e6eead0$4b4cc070$@att.net> Message-ID: > > >...Apparently the second most frequently stolen book from libraries is the > Bible. > Go figure. BillK > _______________________________________________ > > > That one is easy: the perps are practitioners of that religion which shall > not be named lest we commit blasphemy. > > spike > ?People are liars and thieves. bill w Humans are the only species that feels shame, or needs to. Mark Twain? > > __ > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tara at taramayastales.com Mon Dec 8 01:24:03 2014 From: tara at taramayastales.com (Tara Maya) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2014 17:24:03 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Stone age intuition was medical power of attorney In-Reply-To: <082101d0127a$3e0269c0$ba073d40$@att.net> References: <082101d0127a$3e0269c0$ba073d40$@att.net> Message-ID: <56FA24F2-4EE8-42CB-9F19-4D15EB120535@taramayastales.com> Well, evolution is hard at work making ?love of children? more of a priority over ?love of the process that makes children.? All those who avoid the former the better to enjoy the latter will not be passing on as many genes compared to those who desire children for their own sake. In fact, some couples do the very opposite of remaining childless; they pay huge amounts of money to have children with medical assistance. They get a disproportionate number of twins and triplets as a result. Tara Maya Blog | Twitter | Facebook | Amazon | Goodreads > On Dec 7, 2014, at 4:02 PM, spike wrote: > > >> ... On Behalf Of BillK > Subject: Re: [ExI] Stone age intuition was medical power of attorney > > On Sun, Dec 7, 2014 at 9:00 PM, Keith Henson wrote: >>> ... But you really need the right model to think about evolved traits... > >> ...Hmmm. It appears that in the US about 20% of women remain childless. > This seems to be rather a large percentage if they have evolved from genes > to have as many children as possible. Perhaps genes are not the only driver > of human behaviour? BillK > _______________________________________________ > > > For most of human history, a woman's desire to have children was nearly > irrelevant. Perhaps more relevant would be a woman's desire to copulate. > Even then, her desires may have been mostly irrelevant until the last dozen > centuries and only applicable in a portion of the world's human population. > > spike > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Mon Dec 8 03:36:28 2014 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2014 22:36:28 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Medical power of attorney for cryonicsts In-Reply-To: <05e501d01244$edc4d400$c94e7c00$@att.net> References: <548433B3.9020105@yahoo.com> <618798598-26063@secure.ericade.net> <05e501d01244$edc4d400$c94e7c00$@att.net> Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 7, 2014 at 12:40 PM, spike wrote: > > > > If my worst nightmare came to pass and I found myself running a hospital, > I durn sure would form that. Where would I get my people? I suppose I > would have to choose from applicants, and those applications would be heavy > in people with degrees in medical ethics, ja? That experiment tells me > that medical ethics is a legitimate field of study and a legitimate degree, > providing a service that I occasionally want and need. > ### Other parts of my PoA, which I have not excerpted to the list, actually do that - I selected three of my friends to act on my behalf if I were incapacitated, using the instructions that I shared with the list as guidance. However, none of these friends have medical or ethics degrees - they are PhDs or equivalent, selected because of their intelligence and emotional stability, as well as geographical proximity and a pro-active, achiever personality. One of them does have a bachelor's degree in philosophy but this is just a side-effect of him being better than 999 smart. As a fringe libertarian, I see personal autonomy as the highest level good, and this leaves little for a medical ethicist to contribute to my care. There is just so much technical detail and so little ethical knowledge that is needed to make decisions under my value system that what I need is a friend who cares about me, knows biology, and is very smart - the requisite ethics capabilities are a minor by-product of his intelligence. This is not to say that a studious person could not contribute to progress after learning a lot about other people's value systems, like a professional ethicist would, but his usefulness is limited. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Mon Dec 8 03:42:27 2014 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2014 22:42:27 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Medical power of attorney for cryonicsts In-Reply-To: <061301d01249$9b182db0$d1488910$@att.net> References: <547F57BF.7070507@yahoo.com> <373240597-11629@secure.ericade.net> <022201d00ffa$86cae970$9460bc50$@att.net> <03d901d0102f$ffa69940$fef3cbc0$@att.net> <006201d010c2$74255d50$5c7017f0$@att.net> <061301d01249$9b182db0$d1488910$@att.net> Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 7, 2014 at 1:14 PM, spike wrote: > > Note that Kellogg began medical practice as a teenager (the proto-Doogie > Houser MD) in the 1860s, even before attending medical school, which was > then a 4 month course of questionable value. We need to judge him and his > work by the standards of his times rather than ours. > ### He also contributed to the colon-cleansing craze. All this goes to show that good intentions (which he probably had) don't mean much when technical knowledge and experimental rigor is lacking. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Mon Dec 8 03:50:38 2014 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2014 19:50:38 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Medical power of attorney for cryonicsts In-Reply-To: References: <547F57BF.7070507@yahoo.com> <373240597-11629@secure.ericade.net> <022201d00ffa$86cae970$9460bc50$@att.net> <03d901d0102f$ffa69940$fef3cbc0$@att.net> <006201d010c2$74255d50$5c7017f0$@att.net> <061301d01249$9b182db0$d1488910$@att.net> Message-ID: <013d01d0129a$2223cee0$666b6ca0$@att.net> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Rafal Smigrodzki Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2014 7:42 PM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] Medical power of attorney for cryonicsts On Sun, Dec 7, 2014 at 1:14 PM, spike wrote: >>?Note that Kellogg began medical practice as a teenager (the proto-Doogie Houser MD) in the 1860s, even before attending medical school, which was then a 4 month course of questionable value. We need to judge him and his work by the standards of his times rather than ours. ### He also contributed to the colon-cleansing craze. All this goes to show that good intentions (which he probably had) don't mean much when technical knowledge and experimental rigor is lacking. Rafal It could be that Kellogg?s best contribution is to encourage the formation of a negative feedback loop to dampen the potential for destruction of one charismatic but misguided doctor. He is a perfect example of a guy who could have used a medical ethics panel, who would have made sure someone was following up on the patients he treated. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Mon Dec 8 04:07:51 2014 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2014 23:07:51 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Stone age intuition was medical power of attorney In-Reply-To: <56FA24F2-4EE8-42CB-9F19-4D15EB120535@taramayastales.com> References: <082101d0127a$3e0269c0$ba073d40$@att.net> <56FA24F2-4EE8-42CB-9F19-4D15EB120535@taramayastales.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 7, 2014 at 8:24 PM, Tara Maya wrote: > Well, evolution is hard at work making ?love of children? more of a > priority over ?love of the process that makes children.? ### Indeed, this is the case. On both the biological and memetic evolutionary levels, there is very strong selection against PhD feminists and in favor of Amish housewives. The robot Apocalypse will come soon enough to make this process irrelevant but one can idly speculate about the society where evolution was allowed to run along these lines for a few hundred years. Just as, per Gregory Clark, about five hundred years of evolution in England changed the minds of Englishmen, a couple hundred years more could change Americans, too. It's not Idiocracy that would prevail there but rather the Plain People. Rafa? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Mon Dec 8 08:37:35 2014 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2014 00:37:35 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Medical power of attorney for cryonicsts In-Reply-To: <00f601d011b9$088c78b0$19a56a10$@att.net> References: <03d901d0102f$ffa69940$fef3cbc0$@att.net> <481704945-19203@secure.ericade.net> <01a601d0110c$d550dab0$7ff29010$@att.net> <548364AC.2080206@aleph.se> <01f201d0119b$75428080$5fc78180$@att.net> <00f601d011b9$088c78b0$19a56a10$@att.net> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 6, 2014 at 4:59 PM, spike wrote: > I was fortunate to go into aerospace. Of all fields I know of, that one > is the most free of ethical dilemmas. In my entire career I never ran > across one that I recall. Our bosses might lean on us to work our asses > off, but not once was I ever pressured to do the wrong thing, or to do > anything against my conscience or to rush anything out the door before I > was completely satisfied it was right. > One might argue that going into a weapons design firm, knowing that you're designing stuff intended to be used to kill other human beings, is an ethical issue in and of itself - and that includes most military aviation design. > There are no movies about aerospace, because there is little human drama. > http://www.imdb.com/list/ls003227049/ and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Aviation_films for starters. On Fri, Dec 5, 2014 at 2:29 PM, david wrote: > On Fri, 5 Dec 2014 10:20:24 +0000 > BillK wrote: > > I suspect the above statement could apply to every possible treatment > > for Alzheimers. People are desperate. They will try anything that > > might help. But their attempts may cause more damage instead of > > helping. > > Alzheimers eats away at your brain until you die. It seems difficult for > side-effects to top that, especially for a cryonicist to whom preserving > the > brain is paramount. Alheimers locks down brain functions, such as the formation of new long-term memories, but in theory the damage could be reversible. (Maybe you won't get those never-formed-in-long-term memories back, but the functions can be reenabled.) Bad drug side effects can accelerate the damage, make it permanent, and add new types of damage, among other things. Actually breaking synapses and destroying neurons, at a pace which accelerates death, is a good example of what they fear might happen. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Mon Dec 8 17:08:10 2014 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2014 09:08:10 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Medical power of attorney for cryonicsts In-Reply-To: References: <03d901d0102f$ffa69940$fef3cbc0$@att.net> <481704945-19203@secure.ericade.net> <01a601d0110c$d550dab0$7ff29010$@att.net> <548364AC.2080206@aleph.se> <01f201d0119b$75428080$5fc78180$@att.net> <00f601d011b9$088c78b0$19a56a10$@att.net> Message-ID: <015701d01309$8c247fa0$a46d7ee0$@att.net> >? On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes Subject: Re: [ExI] Medical power of attorney for cryonicsts On Sat, Dec 6, 2014 at 4:59 PM, spike wrote: >>?I was fortunate to go into aerospace. Of all fields I know of, that one is the most free of ethical dilemmas. In my entire career I never ran across one that I recall. Our bosses might lean on us to work our asses off, but not once was I ever pressured to do the wrong thing, or to do anything against my conscience or to rush anything out the door before I was completely satisfied it was right. >?One might argue that going into a weapons design firm, knowing that you're designing stuff intended to be used to kill other human beings, is an ethical issue in and of itself - and that includes most military aviation design? Adrian On the contrary Adrian, nearly all modern military design doesn?t kill people, but rather saves people. Consider as an example THAAD. That doesn?t kill anyone, but if it works correctly, it destroys incoming missiles which save people. Consider Israel?s Iron Dome. That system saves people from being killed. All the really high tech stuff being designed today doesn?t kill at all. The F22 is a holdover from the old days, and I still don?t see why we need it when we have advanced anti-aircraft drones which make the whole notion of fighter planes outdated. As far as slaying people, the design phase on that kind of stuff was over long before the oldest person here was born. In the closest thing to a war going today, they use old fashioned handguns and rifles, and when they deem their victims unworthy of the cost of a small caliber round, they use knives or stones. Technological advances explain why we don?t have WW1 style battles anymore, or at least not any place which has advanced technology. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon Dec 8 18:27:31 2014 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2014 13:27:31 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Medical power of attorney for cryonicsts In-Reply-To: <015701d01309$8c247fa0$a46d7ee0$@att.net> References: <03d901d0102f$ffa69940$fef3cbc0$@att.net> <481704945-19203@secure.ericade.net> <01a601d0110c$d550dab0$7ff29010$@att.net> <548364AC.2080206@aleph.se> <01f201d0119b$75428080$5fc78180$@att.net> <00f601d011b9$088c78b0$19a56a10$@att.net> <015701d01309$8c247fa0$a46d7ee0$@att.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 8, 2014 , spike wrote: > Technological advances explain why we don?t have WW1 style battles anymore > And it explains why the second half of the 20th century was so much less bloody than the first. After the nuclear bomb was invented we started killing each other at a much slower rate. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tara at taramayastales.com Mon Dec 8 19:58:04 2014 From: tara at taramayastales.com (Tara Maya) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2014 11:58:04 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Stone age intuition was medical power of attorney In-Reply-To: References: <082101d0127a$3e0269c0$ba073d40$@att.net> <56FA24F2-4EE8-42CB-9F19-4D15EB120535@taramayastales.com> Message-ID: It?s just r versus K selection. As the population increases and open niches decrease, and competition for space and resources increase, K selection (fewer offspring of higher quality) becomes more effective than r selection (quantity and speed over quality). The Phd or CEO woman who has twins at 45 is opting for K selection, while the Amish and the Quiverful fundamentalist families are opting for r selection. It is absolutely not an evolutionary ?mistake? that rich and middle class families started having fewer children than poor families after the Industrial Revolution and the population explosion. They had to, in order to invest more in the children that they had. Interestingly, after about a century lag, poor /less educated families are now starting to once again have fewer children in comparison to richer/better educated families. The reason is that the age of first parity is rising across the board. A woman who spends her twenties getting a degree and establishing a career can afford medical assistance, if needed, to still have two or three children after age 35. But a woman who has only a high school education and a single income who waits to have children until her 30s is less likely to conceive. This is what is happening. The only exceptions, as mentioned, are those families who deliberately embrace an r selection strategy and retain early age of first parity. They can only do this at the cost of considerable isolation into their own niche, however. That?s a rather vulnerable position to be in. So I don?t think its either Idiots or Plain people that will have the most genetic success, but (as usual), the richer, smarter, and more popular. Tara Maya Blog | Twitter | Facebook | Amazon | Goodreads > On Dec 7, 2014, at 8:07 PM, Rafal Smigrodzki wrote: > > > > On Sun, Dec 7, 2014 at 8:24 PM, Tara Maya > wrote: > Well, evolution is hard at work making ?love of children? more of a priority over ?love of the process that makes children.? > > ### Indeed, this is the case. On both the biological and memetic evolutionary levels, there is very strong selection against PhD feminists and in favor of Amish housewives. The robot Apocalypse will come soon enough to make this process irrelevant but one can idly speculate about the society where evolution was allowed to run along these lines for a few hundred years. Just as, per Gregory Clark, about five hundred years of evolution in England changed the minds of Englishmen, a couple hundred years more could change Americans, too. > > It's not Idiocracy that would prevail there but rather the Plain People. > > Rafa? > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Tue Dec 9 09:10:25 2014 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2014 09:10:25 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Smarter mice Message-ID: The altered mice still have mouse neurons - the "thinking" cells that make up around half of all their brain cells. But practically all the glial cells in their brains, the ones that support the neurons, are human. Quote: Goldman's team extracted immature glial cells from donated human fetuses. They injected them into mouse pups where they developed into astrocytes, a star-shaped type of glial cell. Within a year, the mouse glial cells had been completely usurped by the human interlopers. The 300,000 human cells each mouse received multiplied until they numbered 12 million, displacing the native cells. Astrocytes are vital for conscious thought, because they help to strengthen the connections between neurons, called synapses. Their tendrils (see image) are involved in coordinating the transmission of electrical signals across synapses. Human astrocytes are 10 to 20 times the size of mouse astrocytes and carry 100 times as many tendrils. This means they can coordinate all the neural signals in an area far more adeptly than mouse astrocytes can. "It's like ramping up the power of your computer," says Goldman. A battery of standard tests for mouse memory and cognition showed that the mice with human astrocytes are much smarter than their mousy peers. ------------------- Two thoughts......... Would replacing glial cells in Alzheimers patients improve their condition? For normal people, would injecting high quality glial cells, say, from a genius level person, improve their intelligence? BillK From clementlawyer at gmail.com Tue Dec 9 20:32:19 2014 From: clementlawyer at gmail.com (James Clement) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2014 14:32:19 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Smarter mice In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 9, 2014 at 3:10 AM, BillK wrote: > < > http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn26639-the-smart-mouse-with-the-halfhuman-brain.html > > > > I spent quite a bit of time visiting with Steve Goldman and his wife Maiken Nedergaard, in Rochester, NY in 2010. They had already done similar experiments described in this article, but the foundation that had given grants for the study would not allow them to report on such because many of the donors to that foundation were religious and the foundation didn't want the negative publicity ("Playing God") to blow back on them. At that time, they'd used what are called "Shiverer mice " (lacking adequate myelin and thus having tremors that made them look like they where shivering all of the time). Not only did the glial cell implantation cure this, but the mice grew up to be substantially smarter than normal mice. Maiken told me that they "squeaked" differently, and would sit together in separate parts of cages from the "normal" mice, talking with each other. At least at that time, they were ordered by their sponsor not to do any further intelligence tests on these mice. Everything that's come out since then (2013 and 2014) has been recreations of these experiments using different funding, so they could at least report on their findings. Goldman and Nedergaard's experiments are primarily concerned with finding ways to remyelinate damaged brains, but they both realize that if used in "normal" people, would likely lead to enhanced intelligence. Of course there's no easy funding for this, at least at this time. James -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Wed Dec 10 05:49:08 2014 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2014 21:49:08 -0800 Subject: [ExI] 67p rosetta d/h Message-ID: <020b01d0143d$04ab9a60$0e02cf20$@att.net> I went to a talk today at SETI by Rosetta project manager Claudia Alexander. I went for one critical piece of information, the deuterium to hydrogen ratio. She kept us on the edge of our seats for an hour and finished with the comment that the D/H ratio will be announced tomorrow and she wouldn't tell us today. Doh! So, tomorrow we get a clue for where the Earth's water came from. If 67P has a D/H ratio that matches Earth, well now isn't that interesting. If it matches Mars, isn't that puzzling. If it matches the Kuiper belt objects, now what do we think? Any guesses before the number comes out? I think it will match Earth because I have long since bought into the argument that our water came from comets. Tomorrow is the day we learn a cool new piece of info! {8-] spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Wed Dec 10 07:11:44 2014 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2014 02:11:44 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Stone age intuition was medical power of attorney In-Reply-To: References: <082101d0127a$3e0269c0$ba073d40$@att.net> <56FA24F2-4EE8-42CB-9F19-4D15EB120535@taramayastales.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 8, 2014 at 2:58 PM, Tara Maya wrote: > It?s just r versus K selection. As the population increases and open > niches decrease, and competition for space and resources increase, K > selection (fewer offspring of higher quality) becomes more effective than r > selection (quantity and speed over quality). The Phd or CEO woman who has > twins at 45 is opting for K selection, while the Amish and the Quiverful > fundamentalist families are opting for r selection. It is absolutely not an > evolutionary ?mistake? that rich and middle class families started having > fewer children than poor families after the Industrial Revolution and the > population explosion. They had to, in order to invest more in the children > that they had. Interestingly, after about a century lag, poor /less > educated families are now starting to once again have fewer children in > comparison to richer/better educated families. The reason is that the age > of first parity is rising across the board. A woman who spends her twenties > getting a degree and establishing a career can afford medical assistance, > if needed, to still have two or three children after age 35. But a woman > who has only a high school education and a single income who waits to have > children until her 30s is less likely to conceive. This is what is > happening. The only exceptions, as mentioned, are those families who > deliberately embrace an r selection strategy and retain early age of first > parity. They can only do this at the cost of considerable isolation into > their own niche, however. That?s a rather vulnerable position to be in. > > So I don?t think its either Idiots or Plain people that will have the most > genetic success, but (as usual), the richer, smarter, and more popular. > ### I don't think you can call childlessness a reproductive strategy. What is happening to many women and men today is misfiring of ancient adaptations (hypergamy, novelty-seeking, sex drive) under the conditions of modern life, with complete loss of fitness. For the vast majority of Americans, except the Amish and Quiverfull adherents, the number of offspring is not resource-constrained, and therefore there is no question of a trade-off between number and per-offspring parental investment that is the key to the K-r differentiation. Today's America is not medieval England, Ming China or a Yanomami village, here most people choose to have significantly fewer children than they could support. The number of offspring is limited by psychological adaptations to conditions that no longer obtain, and it will take some time for new adaptations to be selected in the gene and memetic pools. Remember, having less than 2.1 children per couple is a recipe for long-term elimination from the gene pool. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From protokol2020 at gmail.com Wed Dec 10 09:22:32 2014 From: protokol2020 at gmail.com (Tomaz Kristan) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2014 10:22:32 +0100 Subject: [ExI] 67p rosetta d/h In-Reply-To: <020b01d0143d$04ab9a60$0e02cf20$@att.net> References: <020b01d0143d$04ab9a60$0e02cf20$@att.net> Message-ID: I think it will NOT match Earth. On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 6:49 AM, spike wrote: > > > I went to a talk today at SETI by Rosetta project manager Claudia > Alexander. I went for one critical piece of information, the deuterium to > hydrogen ratio. She kept us on the edge of our seats for an hour and > finished with the comment that the D/H ratio will be announced tomorrow and > she wouldn?t tell us today. Doh! > > > > So, tomorrow we get a clue for where the Earth?s water came from. If 67P > has a D/H ratio that matches Earth, well now isn?t that interesting. If it > matches Mars, isn?t that puzzling. If it matches the Kuiper belt objects, > now what do we think? > > > > Any guesses before the number comes out? I think it will match Earth > because I have long since bought into the argument that our water came from > comets. > > > > Tomorrow is the day we learn a cool new piece of info! {8-] > > > > spike > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -- https://protokol2020.wordpress.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Wed Dec 10 15:20:05 2014 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2014 07:20:05 -0800 Subject: [ExI] 67p rosetta d/h In-Reply-To: References: <020b01d0143d$04ab9a60$0e02cf20$@att.net> Message-ID: <007a01d0148c$c778bce0$566a36a0$@att.net> >>?Any guesses before the number comes out? I think it will match Earth because I have long since bought into the argument that our water came from comets. spike >? On Behalf Of Tomaz Kristan Subject: Re: [ExI] 67p rosetta d/h >?I think it will NOT match Earth? Cool! We have a scientific debate which can be settled by experimental results. {8-] Tomaz, why do you think not? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Wed Dec 10 16:06:40 2014 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2014 16:06:40 +0000 Subject: [ExI] 67p rosetta d/h In-Reply-To: <020b01d0143d$04ab9a60$0e02cf20$@att.net> References: <020b01d0143d$04ab9a60$0e02cf20$@att.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 5:49 AM, spike wrote: > So, tomorrow we get a clue for where the Earth's water came from. If 67P > has a D/H ratio that matches Earth, well now isn't that interesting. If it > matches Mars, isn't that puzzling. If it matches the Kuiper belt objects, > now what do we think? > > Any guesses before the number comes out? I think it will match Earth > because I have long since bought into the argument that our water came from > comets. > They already announced preliminary results last month. Quote: And ROSINA, a Rosetta instrument that uses spectrometers to measure gas abundances, has obtained a highly sought after result: the so-called deuterium-to-hydrogen ratio of water in the comet's thin atmosphere, or coma. The measured value for 67P is much higher than the ratio in Earth's oceans and higher than in other comets, says ROSINA principal investigator Kathrin Altwegg, of the University of Bern. Three years ago, the comet Hartley-2 was found to have a D-to-H ratio near that of Earth's oceans--sparking interest in the notion that comet impacts delivered much of Earth's water. Altwegg says the result for 67P could make asteroids the primary suspect again. -------- BillK From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Wed Dec 10 16:25:07 2014 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2014 08:25:07 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Alzheimers again Message-ID: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/science-news/11280504/Has-Stanford-University-found-a-cure-for-Alzheimers-disease.html Has Stanford University found a cure for Alzheimer's disease? A drug which boosts the brain's immune response may prevent or cure Alzheimer's disease, scientists believe Alzheimer's could be prevented and even cured by boosting the brain's own immune response, scientists at Stanford University believe. Researchers discovered that nerve cells die because cells which are supposed to clear the brain of bacteria, viruses and dangerous deposits, stop working. These cells, called 'microglia' function well when people are young, but when they age, a single protein called EP2 stops them operating efficiently. Now scientists have shown that blocking the protein allows the microglia to function normally again so they can hoover up the dangerous sticky amyloid-beta plaques which damage nerve cells in Alzheimer's disease. The researchers found that, in mice, blocking EP2 with a drug reversed memory loss and myriad other Alzheimer's-like features in the animals. "Microglia are the brain's beat cops," said Dr Katrin Andreasson, Professor of neurology and neurological sciences at Stanford University School of Medicine. "Our experiments show that keeping them on the right track counters memory loss and preserves healthy brain physiology." [more at the URL] Keith From danust2012 at gmail.com Wed Dec 10 16:26:51 2014 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2014 08:26:51 -0800 Subject: [ExI] 67p rosetta d/h In-Reply-To: References: <020b01d0143d$04ab9a60$0e02cf20$@att.net> Message-ID: <7CFC309D-8B87-4696-9442-A44C0E74138C@gmail.com> I heard that too, which is why I'd side with Tomasz here. Of course, it would be interesting if two results from the same comet varied, meaning there's likely some separation process going on. Still, I don't have a dog in this race, so it's not like my pet theory of solar system or Earth formation is on the line. :) Regards, Dan > On Dec 10, 2014, at 8:06 AM, BillK wrote: > >> On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 5:49 AM, spike wrote: >> >> So, tomorrow we get a clue for where the Earth's water came from. If 67P >> has a D/H ratio that matches Earth, well now isn't that interesting. If it >> matches Mars, isn't that puzzling. If it matches the Kuiper belt objects, >> now what do we think? >> >> Any guesses before the number comes out? I think it will match Earth >> because I have long since bought into the argument that our water came from >> comets. > > > They already announced preliminary results last month. > > > Quote: > And ROSINA, a Rosetta instrument that uses spectrometers to measure > gas abundances, has obtained a highly sought after result: the > so-called deuterium-to-hydrogen ratio of water in the comet's thin > atmosphere, or coma. The measured value for 67P is much higher than > the ratio in Earth's oceans and higher than in other comets, says > ROSINA principal investigator Kathrin Altwegg, of the University of > Bern. Three years ago, the comet Hartley-2 was found to have a D-to-H > ratio near that of Earth's oceans--sparking interest in the notion that > comet impacts delivered much of Earth's water. Altwegg says the result > for 67P could make asteroids the primary suspect again. > -------- > > BillK -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From protokol2020 at gmail.com Wed Dec 10 16:35:24 2014 From: protokol2020 at gmail.com (Tomaz Kristan) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2014 17:35:24 +0100 Subject: [ExI] 67p rosetta d/h In-Reply-To: References: <020b01d0143d$04ab9a60$0e02cf20$@att.net> Message-ID: Spike! > Tomaz, why do you think not? Be cause I am quite confident that our water is of a terrestrial origin. We have a lot of resulting neutrons from radioactive decays deep down. In a minute or two after one, we may have a hydrogen atom. And an oxygen atom is quite willing to divorce e.g. iron and to make a commitment trio - H20, water. That is what I think. We shall see how stupid I am. On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 5:06 PM, BillK wrote: > On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 5:49 AM, spike wrote: > > > So, tomorrow we get a clue for where the Earth's water came from. If 67P > > has a D/H ratio that matches Earth, well now isn't that interesting. If > it > > matches Mars, isn't that puzzling. If it matches the Kuiper belt > objects, > > now what do we think? > > > > Any guesses before the number comes out? I think it will match Earth > > because I have long since bought into the argument that our water came > from > > comets. > > > > > They already announced preliminary results last month. > > < > http://news.sciencemag.org/europe/2014/11/doomed-comet-lander-delivered-harvest-science > > > Quote: > And ROSINA, a Rosetta instrument that uses spectrometers to measure > gas abundances, has obtained a highly sought after result: the > so-called deuterium-to-hydrogen ratio of water in the comet's thin > atmosphere, or coma. The measured value for 67P is much higher than > the ratio in Earth's oceans and higher than in other comets, says > ROSINA principal investigator Kathrin Altwegg, of the University of > Bern. Three years ago, the comet Hartley-2 was found to have a D-to-H > ratio near that of Earth's oceans--sparking interest in the notion that > comet impacts delivered much of Earth's water. Altwegg says the result > for 67P could make asteroids the primary suspect again. > -------- > > BillK > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -- https://protokol2020.wordpress.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Wed Dec 10 16:46:09 2014 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2014 08:46:09 -0800 Subject: [ExI] 67p rosetta d/h In-Reply-To: References: <020b01d0143d$04ab9a60$0e02cf20$@att.net> Message-ID: <005a01d01498$cd931f60$68b95e20$@att.net> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of BillK ... >...They already announced preliminary results last month. Quote: >...And ROSINA, a Rosetta instrument that uses spectrometers to measure gas abundances, has obtained a highly sought after result: the so-called deuterium-to-hydrogen ratio of water in the comet's thin atmosphere, or coma. The measured value for 67P is much higher than the ratio in Earth's oceans and higher than in other comets, says ROSINA principal investigator Kathrin Altwegg, of the University of Bern. Three years ago, the comet Hartley-2 was found to have a D-to-H ratio near that of Earth's oceans--sparking interest in the notion that comet impacts delivered much of Earth's water. Altwegg says the result for 67P could make asteroids the primary suspect again. --------BillK _______________________________________________ Cool! I saw there was a leaked result last month which just said the ratio was high, but the source wasn't as reliable as Science, they didn't say "much higher" and didn't quote Altwegg specifically. I discounted the leak at the time, but the number will likely cause me to go into a deep think. spike From spike66 at att.net Wed Dec 10 17:06:23 2014 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2014 09:06:23 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Alzheimers again In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <005b01d0149b$a0f52090$e2df61b0$@att.net> >... On Behalf Of Keith Henson Subject: [ExI] Alzheimers again http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/science-news/11280504/Has-Stanford-U niversity-found-a-cure-for-Alzheimers-disease.html >...Has Stanford University found a cure for Alzheimer's disease?..."Our experiments show that keeping them on the right track counters memory loss and preserves healthy brain physiology."... Keith _______________________________________________ Thanks Keith. We all know it takes years to do a clinical trial, and even then medical ethics notions prevent us from doing plenty of experiments. I have an idea. We know that Alzheimers is a special case from the point of view of cryonicists. Reason: the body survives as everything we care about is destroyed. In the case of the hardcore cryo-believer, Alzheimers is one of those especially wretched conditions that kills us twice: once AD gets through killing the body, the brain is scarcely worth preserving. So here's the idea: we create a special pool of test subjects, cryonauts, who take a different approach to medical ethics. We recognize that if we do human experimentation with some new therapy, we might shorten our lives, but we also recognize if we do nothing, we already know what happens, and that risk is higher than ingesting some Hail Mary chemical or therapy. So we collect some people like that, make sure they have solid arrangements for cryonics, wait until they recognize they have AD and are willing to proceed, then offer them the latest scientific shot in the dark notion. Along with this pool of candidates, we set up some means to do objective evaluations, done by volunteers rather than overworked doctors or professionals. We get people who are not emotionally attached to the patients to do those, locals who can visit and comment on progress. The desperate family is too likely to report positive results when there are none, as we saw in the bexarotene community. We know there are ethical problems here, but we also know that as soon as we start seeing AD symptoms, there are plenty of us who will pick the most likely treatment and go ahead and try it, even if it has known health risks. I would join that. I know what the quality of life is like for an AD patient, and I don't want that; it is horrifying, expensive, lonely, boring, hard on families, pointless and destroys any hope that cryonics may offer. spike From tara at taramayastales.com Wed Dec 10 18:03:16 2014 From: tara at taramayastales.com (Tara Maya) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2014 10:03:16 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Stone age intuition was medical power of attorney In-Reply-To: References: <082101d0127a$3e0269c0$ba073d40$@att.net> <56FA24F2-4EE8-42CB-9F19-4D15EB120535@taramayastales.com> Message-ID: > On Dec 9, 2014, at 11:11 PM, Rafal Smigrodzki wrote: > > For the vast majority of Americans, except the Amish and Quiverfull adherents, the number of offspring is not resource-constrained, and therefore there is no question of a trade-off between number and per-offspring parental investment that is the key to the K-r differentiation. Hahahahahahah! Really?! I dare you to join and Mommies and Me class in any urban center in America and then tell me that there is resource-contraint. (Count on $300 and 10 hours of your time per child for those lessons? no difference between one and three children? So glad you have an extra 30 hours and $900 lying around, because that?s just the start!) Do you have kids?! If you do, have you considered having twice the number you do now?what changes would that require you to make to your lifestyle? How about three times as many? Believe me, once you start adding up how much it costs to have six kids rather than two, and then compare trying to raise them in Hendersonville versus San Francisco, you would not say there is no difference between a K and an r strategy. Here?s just a few of the expenses for typical K and r strategies: House: K Selection - urban or exurban location; each kid has own room; parents have home offices too r Selection ? small town or rural location; kids share rooms Car: K Selection - Two cars, one minivan and one sedan, both new (two career family needs two cars) r Selection ? One car, used Travel to more distant places (international or interstate): K Selection - Valued; by plane r Selection ? Not valued; if done, by bus or car Pregnancy: K Selection - Planned, timed around school and career, Lamaze classes, yoga, acupuncture, Duala, pre-natal enrichment, possibly fertility medicine r Selection ? Accidental (even when wanted) Baby Stuff: K Selection - new, brand-name strollers, cribs, nursery furniture, car seats, bouncers, walkers, toys, boutique clothing r Selection ? used/hand-me-down or big box store strollers & car seats & clothing Pre-K Education: K Selection - Preschool, Mommy & Me classes, many, many enrichment toys and activities aimed at toddlers r Selection ? None Elementary & Secondary Education: K Selection - private school or charter school or excellent school district (=more expensive house) r Selection ? public school or home schooling Kid Stuff: K Selection - bikes, swing sets, books, sports equipment, computers, phones, iPads, video games, toys, toys, toys r Selection ? used or cheaper toys, almost no electronic devices (even parents might not have home computer) Cultural Enrichment: K Selection - Museums, art, science & computer training, swim lessons, typing lessons, music/dance lessons, sports practice, tutors, afterschool programs r Selection ? Church, extended family College: K Selection - Parents pay r Selection ? Kids pay or don?t go And that?s just the tip of the iceberg. We have three kids; we want one more. We went over our budget with a fine toothed comb, asking, ?Can we afford it? Can we make sure all the kids still get all the attention and investment they need to thrive if we have another brain to feed?? It?s not like getting another dog, where we just have to buy a few galleons of extra Kid Chow. We want this child to feel loved, even spoiled. We want our child to do more than survive, we want her to THRIVE. We are not just up against the edge of our resources, we are OVER the edge. I mean, sure, unless we want to move to Kansas and let my hubby work at Walmart while I watch the kids full time. In addition to all the base costs of having a larger family (larger car, larger house), there are per child costs. For a good rule of thumb, assume each kid to an urban or suburban costs a $1000 a month. That means: 1 kid = $1000 2 kids = $2000 5 kids = $5000 etc. Honestly, even in America, a family has to think twice before they take on another mostly debt of $1000 or more. Of course, there are some things you can save money on, like car seats, because you have them already, but these savings aren?t as great as you?d think. There are not much savings per child in an urban/suburban environment because you are mostly paying for things per child, like day care or soccer shoes or math lessons. A rural or small town family with a stay at home mom simply doesn?t pay as many of those per child costs. More of their main costs are going to be in clothing or food, where buying in bulk allows some savings. However, their children are less likely to get dancing, skiing or computer programming lessons and less likely to go to college (and that?s per child too, of course) and less likely to become urban professionals. I.e. this is a perfect example of K versus r selection. Tara Maya Blog | Twitter | Facebook | Amazon | Goodreads -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Wed Dec 10 18:12:56 2014 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2014 10:12:56 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Alzheimers again In-Reply-To: <005b01d0149b$a0f52090$e2df61b0$@att.net> References: <005b01d0149b$a0f52090$e2df61b0$@att.net> Message-ID: <008f01d014a4$ecee32d0$c6ca9870$@att.net> >... On Behalf Of spike >...http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/science-news/11280504/Has-Stanfo rd-University-found-a-cure-for-Alzheimers-disease.html >>...Has Stanford University found a cure for Alzheimer's disease?...Keith _______________________________________________ >...We all know it takes years to do a clinical trial, and even then medical ethics notions prevent us from doing plenty of experiments. I have an idea...spike _______________________________________________ Because if I go down, I want to go down swinging. I want to try *something* even if chances are it is useless or even harmful. Better to fight in vain than go peacefully, ja? If nothing else, it's our gift to the future, to help inform them on what doesn't work, ja? My point of all this: with our legal system trying to solve problems like wildcat doctors (such as Kellogg) doing ill-advised experiments and killing patients, we have set up a stultifying system which has gone so far, it might have done more harm than good. It has become so expensive and so hard to prove the efficacy of a drug or therapy, we stifle experimentation and slow progress nearly to a halt. We have worked so hard to shut down snake oil salesmen that we have stifled most innovative medical technological development. So, we set up a special class where we know what happens if we do nothing, such as AD patients. We let that class of willing and eager volunteers do whatever they think is right, and absolve their medical teams of any responsibility if things go wrong, which they will in nearly every case. All we ask is that we have some kind of objective monitoring and feedback loop, so the experimental results don't get lost, as they are now with experimental AD medications. How do we do this? spike From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Dec 10 18:54:10 2014 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2014 12:54:10 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Stone age intuition was medical power of attorney In-Reply-To: References: <082101d0127a$3e0269c0$ba073d40$@att.net> <56FA24F2-4EE8-42CB-9F19-4D15EB120535@taramayastales.com> Message-ID: It seems to poor ignorant me (had to look up r and K in Wikipedia, where I found that this theory is now not accepted because of some studies), the whole point of human evolution is to get the children to the age where they can have kids themselves, and it doesn't matter how educated or cultured they are to have kids since that doesn't matter in terms of having viable sperm and ova. The more the more offspring. So in terms of passing along your own genes, if you think that they are worth it, the only sensible strategy is to have as many as you can feed. What's wrong with that? I'd like to see the data on how likely it is for a child to reach physical maturity coming from the different socioeconomic classes. I'll bet that it really isn't that different. The upper class ones will very likely live longer lives but since people make babies in their 20s and 30s that should not matter either. bill w On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 12:03 PM, Tara Maya wrote: > > > On Dec 9, 2014, at 11:11 PM, Rafal Smigrodzki > wrote: > > For the vast majority of Americans, except the Amish and Quiverfull > adherents, the number of offspring is not resource-constrained, and > therefore there is no question of a trade-off between number and > per-offspring parental investment that is the key to the K-r > differentiation. > > > Hahahahahahah! Really?! I dare you to join and Mommies and Me class in any > urban center in America and then tell me that there is resource-contraint. > (Count on $300 and 10 hours of your time per child for those lessons? no > difference between one and three children? So glad you have an extra 30 > hours and $900 lying around, because that?s just the start!) Do you have > kids?! If you do, have you considered having twice the number you do > now?what changes would that require you to make to your lifestyle? How > about three times as many? Believe me, once you start adding up how much it > costs to have six kids rather than two, and then compare trying to raise > them in Hendersonville versus San Francisco, you would not say there is no > difference between a K and an r strategy. > > > Here?s just a few of the expenses for typical K and r strategies: > > *House*: > > K Selection - urban or exurban location; each kid has own room; parents > have home offices too > > r Selection ? small town or rural location; kids share rooms > > > > *Car*: > > K Selection - Two cars, one minivan and one sedan, both new (two career > family needs two cars) > > r Selection ? One car, used > > > > *Travel to more distant places (international or interstate)*: > > K Selection - Valued; by plane > > r Selection ? Not valued; if done, by bus or car > > > > *Pregnancy*: > > K Selection - Planned, timed around school and career, Lamaze classes, > yoga, acupuncture, Duala, pre-natal enrichment, possibly fertility > medicine > > r Selection ? Accidental (even when wanted) > > > > *Baby Stuff*: > > K Selection - new, brand-name strollers, cribs, nursery furniture, car > seats, bouncers, walkers, toys, boutique clothing > > r Selection ? used/hand-me-down or big box store strollers & car seats & > clothing > > > > *Pre-K Education*: > > K Selection - Preschool, Mommy & Me classes, many, many enrichment toys > and activities aimed at toddlers > > r Selection ? None > > > > *Elementary & Secondary Education*: > > K Selection - private school or charter school or excellent school > district (=more expensive house) > > r Selection ? public school or home schooling > > > > *Kid Stuff*: > > K Selection - bikes, swing sets, books, sports equipment, computers, > phones, iPads, video games, toys, toys, toys > > r Selection ? used or cheaper toys, almost no electronic devices (even > parents might not have home computer) > > > > *Cultural Enrichment*: > > K Selection - Museums, art, science & computer training, swim lessons, > typing lessons, music/dance lessons, sports practice, tutors, afterschool > programs > > r Selection ? Church, extended family > > > > *College*: > > K Selection - Parents pay > > r Selection ? Kids pay or don?t go > > > And that?s just the tip of the iceberg. We have three kids; we want one > more. We went over our budget with a fine toothed comb, asking, ?Can we > afford it? Can we make sure all the kids still get all the attention and > investment they need to thrive if we have another brain to feed?? It?s not > like getting another dog, where we just have to buy a few galleons of extra > Kid Chow. We want this child to feel loved, even spoiled. We want our child > to do more than survive, we want her to THRIVE. We are not just up against > the edge of our resources, we are OVER the edge. I mean, sure, unless we > want to move to Kansas and let my hubby work at Walmart while I watch the > kids full time. > > In addition to all the base costs of having a larger family (larger car, > larger house), there are per child costs. For a good rule of thumb, assume > each kid to an urban or suburban costs a $1000 a month. That means: > > 1 kid = $1000 > 2 kids = $2000 > 5 kids = $5000 > etc. > > Honestly, even in America, a family has to think twice before they take on > another mostly debt of $1000 or more. > > Of course, there are some things you can save money on, like car seats, > because you have them already, but these savings aren?t as great as you?d > think. There are not much savings per child in an urban/suburban > environment because you are mostly paying for things per child, like day > care or soccer shoes or math lessons. A rural or small town family with a > stay at home mom simply doesn?t pay as many of those per child costs. More > of their main costs are going to be in clothing or food, where buying in > bulk allows some savings. However, their children are less likely to get > dancing, skiing or computer programming lessons and less likely to go to > college (and that?s per child too, of course) and less likely to become > urban professionals. I.e. this is a perfect example of K versus r selection. > > > > Tara Maya > Blog | Twitter > | Facebook > | > Amazon > | > Goodreads > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Dec 10 19:01:09 2014 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2014 13:01:09 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Alzheimers again In-Reply-To: <008f01d014a4$ecee32d0$c6ca9870$@att.net> References: <005b01d0149b$a0f52090$e2df61b0$@att.net> <008f01d014a4$ecee32d0$c6ca9870$@att.net> Message-ID: It has become so expensive and so hard to prove the efficacy of a drug or therapy, we stifle experimentation and slow progress nearly to a halt. I read that it takes about 100 Million dollars to get a drug to market. And even then less than half the studies verifying the drug's efficacy and safety are done with the gold standard: double-blind studies. Further, the drug companies are not doing studies with stuff like herbs because even if they do work they can't patent them. It's a messed-up system bill w On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 12:12 PM, spike wrote: > > >... On Behalf Of spike > > > >... > http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/science-news/11280504/Has-Stanfo > rd-University-found-a-cure-for-Alzheimers-disease.html > > > >>...Has Stanford University found a cure for Alzheimer's disease?...Keith > _______________________________________________ > > >...We all know it takes years to do a clinical trial, and even then > medical > ethics notions prevent us from doing plenty of experiments. I have an > idea...spike > > _______________________________________________ > > > Because if I go down, I want to go down swinging. I want to try > *something* > even if chances are it is useless or even harmful. Better to fight in vain > than go peacefully, ja? If nothing else, it's our gift to the future, to > help inform them on what doesn't work, ja? > > My point of all this: with our legal system trying to solve problems like > wildcat doctors (such as Kellogg) doing ill-advised experiments and killing > patients, we have set up a stultifying system which has gone so far, it > might have done more harm than good. It has become so expensive and so > hard > to prove the efficacy of a drug or therapy, we stifle experimentation and > slow progress nearly to a halt. We have worked so hard to shut down snake > oil salesmen that we have stifled most innovative medical technological > development. > > So, we set up a special class where we know what happens if we do nothing, > such as AD patients. We let that class of willing and eager volunteers do > whatever they think is right, and absolve their medical teams of any > responsibility if things go wrong, which they will in nearly every case. > > All we ask is that we have some kind of objective monitoring and feedback > loop, so the experimental results don't get lost, as they are now with > experimental AD medications. > > How do we do this? > > spike > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Wed Dec 10 19:18:22 2014 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2014 14:18:22 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Alzheimers again In-Reply-To: References: <005b01d0149b$a0f52090$e2df61b0$@att.net> <008f01d014a4$ecee32d0$c6ca9870$@att.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 2:01 PM, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > Further, the drug companies are not doing studies with stuff like herbs > because even if they do work they can't patent them. Simple fix: a copyright/patent-like mechanism giving exclusive production/marketing rights to those who demonstrate effectiveness and safety. Of course, I have zero confidence that such a program would be well-implemented by any government. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Wed Dec 10 19:32:53 2014 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2014 19:32:53 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Alzheimers again In-Reply-To: <008f01d014a4$ecee32d0$c6ca9870$@att.net> References: <005b01d0149b$a0f52090$e2df61b0$@att.net> <008f01d014a4$ecee32d0$c6ca9870$@att.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 6:12 PM, spike wrote: > So, we set up a special class where we know what happens if we do nothing, > such as AD patients. We let that class of willing and eager volunteers do > whatever they think is right, and absolve their medical teams of any > responsibility if things go wrong, which they will in nearly every case. > > All we ask is that we have some kind of objective monitoring and feedback > loop, so the experimental results don't get lost, as they are now with > experimental AD medications. > > How do we do this? > > There are already some moves in this direction. In the UK, the Medical Innovation Bill is going through Parliament and has government support. Quote: The Medical Innovation Bill proposed by Lord Saatchi would allow some people dying of cancer to be voluntarily treated with unlicensed drugs. The bill has been amended to require doctors to get the agreement of another specialist to prescribing the drugs. That safeguard has led the Department of Health to give its support. ---------------- Also, the Ebola epidemic has caused the WHO to allow untested drugs to be used. Quote: Untested drugs can be used to treat patients infected with the Ebola virus, the World Health Organization says. The WHO said it was ethical in light of the scale of the outbreak and high number of deaths - more than 1,000 people have died in West Africa. The statement was made after its medical experts met in Switzerland on Monday to discuss the issue. The WHO said where experimental treatments are used there must be informed consent and the results of the treatment collected and shared. ----------- So I think the door is opening. It should be possible to get a campaign going. The main problem I see with Alzheimers is that it is such a gradual disease, not urgent like Ebola or cancer. So early treatment with untested drugs probably wouldn't be allowed because it might make the patient rapidly worse. Tricky...... BillK From tara at taramayastales.com Wed Dec 10 20:03:04 2014 From: tara at taramayastales.com (Tara Maya) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2014 12:03:04 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Stone age intuition was medical power of attorney In-Reply-To: References: <082101d0127a$3e0269c0$ba073d40$@att.net> <56FA24F2-4EE8-42CB-9F19-4D15EB120535@taramayastales.com> Message-ID: The whole point of K VERSUS r is that it DOES sometimes pay to invest more in fewer children than to have as many as possible. Otherwise, all mammals would have three million kids, like fish. I?m sorry, but most parents would not think it?s a great life strategy for your 14 year old daughter to start pumping out babies. Or for your 15 year old son to start sleeping around to impregnate as many females without birth control as possible. As social creatures, the main competition our children will face is other humans?humans who have more money, power, beauty or social connections than our children. As parents, we may not think of it like that, but we are certainly aware if our son gets laughed at by the girl he asks to prom, or if our daughter doesn?t have the math skills she needs to get a high paying job. Returning to that 20 percent of childless people. First off, that?s not as high as you think. Throughout recorded European history, at least, the number of people who never marry or have children has always hovered between 10% and 20%. So in modern times, it?s not outrageously high. (The birthrate increases in a good economy and goes down with a recession.) The people who fail to find mates are those who lack the prestige and skills valued by their societies. This is the secret purpose behind all the frantic parental investment in their children, although most parents wouldn?t put it that way. They want their children to be good, healthy, happy, attractive people. I.e. the people who easily attract mates and start stable families. The paradox is that raising a child to be a good and happy person really is the best way to get grandchildren? not pimping out your kids three weeks after they hit puberty. Tara Maya Blog | Twitter | Facebook | Amazon | Goodreads > On Dec 10, 2014, at 10:54 AM, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > > It seems to poor ignorant me (had to look up r and K in Wikipedia, where I found that this theory is now not accepted because of some studies), the whole point of human evolution is to get the children to the age where they can have kids themselves, and it doesn't matter how educated or cultured they are to have kids since that doesn't matter in terms of having viable sperm and ova. The more the more offspring. So in terms of passing along your own genes, if you think that they are worth it, the only sensible strategy is to have as many as you can feed. > > What's wrong with that? I'd like to see the data on how likely it is for a child to reach physical maturity coming from the different socioeconomic classes. I'll bet that it really isn't that different. The upper class ones will very likely live longer lives but since people make babies in their 20s and 30s that should not matter either. > > bill w > > On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 12:03 PM, Tara Maya > wrote: > > >> On Dec 9, 2014, at 11:11 PM, Rafal Smigrodzki > wrote: >> >> For the vast majority of Americans, except the Amish and Quiverfull adherents, the number of offspring is not resource-constrained, and therefore there is no question of a trade-off between number and per-offspring parental investment that is the key to the K-r differentiation. > > Hahahahahahah! Really?! I dare you to join and Mommies and Me class in any urban center in America and then tell me that there is resource-contraint. (Count on $300 and 10 hours of your time per child for those lessons? no difference between one and three children? So glad you have an extra 30 hours and $900 lying around, because that?s just the start!) Do you have kids?! If you do, have you considered having twice the number you do now?what changes would that require you to make to your lifestyle? How about three times as many? Believe me, once you start adding up how much it costs to have six kids rather than two, and then compare trying to raise them in Hendersonville versus San Francisco, you would not say there is no difference between a K and an r strategy. > > > Here?s just a few of the expenses for typical K and r strategies: > > House: > > K Selection - urban or exurban location; each kid has own room; parents have home offices too > > r Selection ? small town or rural location; kids share rooms > > > Car: > > K Selection - Two cars, one minivan and one sedan, both new (two career family needs two cars) > > r Selection ? One car, used > > > Travel to more distant places (international or interstate): > > K Selection - Valued; by plane > > r Selection ? Not valued; if done, by bus or car > > > Pregnancy: > > K Selection - Planned, timed around school and career, Lamaze classes, yoga, acupuncture, Duala, pre-natal enrichment, possibly fertility medicine > > r Selection ? Accidental (even when wanted) > > > Baby Stuff: > > K Selection - new, brand-name strollers, cribs, nursery furniture, car seats, bouncers, walkers, toys, boutique clothing > > r Selection ? used/hand-me-down or big box store strollers & car seats & clothing > > > Pre-K Education: > > K Selection - Preschool, Mommy & Me classes, many, many enrichment toys and activities aimed at toddlers > > r Selection ? None > > > Elementary & Secondary Education: > > K Selection - private school or charter school or excellent school district (=more expensive house) > > r Selection ? public school or home schooling > > > Kid Stuff: > > K Selection - bikes, swing sets, books, sports equipment, computers, phones, iPads, video games, toys, toys, toys > > r Selection ? used or cheaper toys, almost no electronic devices (even parents might not have home computer) > > > Cultural Enrichment: > > K Selection - Museums, art, science & computer training, swim lessons, typing lessons, music/dance lessons, sports practice, tutors, afterschool programs > > r Selection ? Church, extended family > > > College: > > K Selection - Parents pay > > r Selection ? Kids pay or don?t go > > > > And that?s just the tip of the iceberg. We have three kids; we want one more. We went over our budget with a fine toothed comb, asking, ?Can we afford it? Can we make sure all the kids still get all the attention and investment they need to thrive if we have another brain to feed?? It?s not like getting another dog, where we just have to buy a few galleons of extra Kid Chow. We want this child to feel loved, even spoiled. We want our child to do more than survive, we want her to THRIVE. We are not just up against the edge of our resources, we are OVER the edge. I mean, sure, unless we want to move to Kansas and let my hubby work at Walmart while I watch the kids full time. > > In addition to all the base costs of having a larger family (larger car, larger house), there are per child costs. For a good rule of thumb, assume each kid to an urban or suburban costs a $1000 a month. That means: > > 1 kid = $1000 > 2 kids = $2000 > 5 kids = $5000 > etc. > > Honestly, even in America, a family has to think twice before they take on another mostly debt of $1000 or more. > > Of course, there are some things you can save money on, like car seats, because you have them already, but these savings aren?t as great as you?d think. There are not much savings per child in an urban/suburban environment because you are mostly paying for things per child, like day care or soccer shoes or math lessons. A rural or small town family with a stay at home mom simply doesn?t pay as many of those per child costs. More of their main costs are going to be in clothing or food, where buying in bulk allows some savings. However, their children are less likely to get dancing, skiing or computer programming lessons and less likely to go to college (and that?s per child too, of course) and less likely to become urban professionals. I.e. this is a perfect example of K versus r selection. > > > > Tara Maya > Blog | Twitter | Facebook | Amazon | Goodreads > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Wed Dec 10 20:14:04 2014 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2014 15:14:04 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Stone age intuition was medical power of attorney In-Reply-To: References: <082101d0127a$3e0269c0$ba073d40$@att.net> <56FA24F2-4EE8-42CB-9F19-4D15EB120535@taramayastales.com> Message-ID: Tara, what you describe is a trade-off between the number and quality of children on one side and *other* (non-fitness related) goals on the other. Almost every American makes a choice not to have children in order to enjoy leisure, travel, and other luxuries. Almost every fertile American could have one, two or three children easily, and 5-6 if they really tried. You don't need a larger house, or even a larger car, you don't need to send all kids to college, etc. etc. Also, the success of a K strategy or the quality of offspring, is measured in the fitness of the offspring. Spending 500,000 on educating a childless PhD is not a K-selection, it's a mistake. I have only one child, and yes, I know I could afford at least 5 more. Rafa? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Wed Dec 10 20:36:38 2014 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2014 15:36:38 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Stone age intuition was medical power of attorney In-Reply-To: References: <082101d0127a$3e0269c0$ba073d40$@att.net> <56FA24F2-4EE8-42CB-9F19-4D15EB120535@taramayastales.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 3:03 PM, Tara Maya wrote: > The whole point of K VERSUS r is that it DOES sometimes pay to invest more > in fewer children than to have as many as possible. Otherwise, all mammals > would have three million kids, like fish. > > ### You are misapplying the concept of K vs r selection. K selection means small numbers of offspring that are highly likely to succeed. r selection means large numbers of offspring with lower individual chance of success. Success is measured by the total fitness of the offspring, i.e. the number of grandchildren. Applying this terminology to human procreation in 21st America is inappropriate. There is negligible pre-adult mortality among humans presently, thus the primary differentiating factor between K and r is absent. There is an inverse correlation between the financial and time resources spent on child-rearing and their lifetime fertility, turning the K vs. r distinction on its head. -------------------- > I?m sorry, but most parents would not think it?s a great life strategy for > your 14 year old daughter to start pumping out babies. Or for your 15 year > old son to start sleeping around to impregnate as many females without > birth control as possible. As social creatures, the main competition our > children will face is other humans?humans who have more money, power, > beauty or social connections than our children. As parents, we may not > think of it like that, but we are certainly aware if our son gets laughed > at by the girl he asks to prom, or if our daughter doesn?t have the math > skills she needs to get a high paying job. > ### Evolutionary analysis does not use social mores as measures of success, by definition success is measured in inclusive fitness. You can use other forms of valuation but this is not evolutionary analysis of K vs. r strategies. ------------------------ > > > Returning to that 20 percent of childless people. First off, that?s not as > high as you think. Throughout recorded European history, at least, the > number of people who never marry or have children has always hovered > between 10% and 20%. So in modern times, it?s not outrageously high. (The > birthrate increases in a good economy and goes down with a recession.) The > people who fail to find mates are those who lack the prestige and skills > valued by their societies. This is the secret purpose behind all the > frantic parental investment in their children, although most parents > wouldn?t put it that way. They want their children to be good, healthy, > happy, attractive people. I.e. the people who easily attract mates and > start stable families. The paradox is that raising a child to be a good and > happy person really is the best way to get grandchildren? not pimping out > your kids three weeks after they hit puberty. > > ### Marrying rich is not a recipe for a lot of children presently. Yes, it was the case through most of human history, if you read Clark this fecundity of the rich was what transformed the English over hundreds of years - but today's America is different. The adaptation for "frantic paternal investment" does not work today, the environment has changed. Also, you seem to imply that frantically spending is the key to raising children to be happy and good...this does not seem to be the case. Happiness and moral traits have a strong genetic component, so the best way to have happy and good children is to be a happy and good person married to another happy and good person. Rafa? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Wed Dec 10 22:55:47 2014 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2014 14:55:47 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Alzheimers again In-Reply-To: References: <005b01d0149b$a0f52090$e2df61b0$@att.net> <008f01d014a4$ecee32d0$c6ca9870$@att.net> Message-ID: <00fa01d014cc$70ae2810$520a7830$@att.net> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace ? >?I read that it takes about 100 Million dollars to get a drug to market? It's a messed-up system bill w Roger that, but 100 megabucks is way lower than the number I have been hearing for several years. Have we any recent numbers on that? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Wed Dec 10 23:19:35 2014 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2014 18:19:35 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Alzheimers again In-Reply-To: <00fa01d014cc$70ae2810$520a7830$@att.net> References: <005b01d0149b$a0f52090$e2df61b0$@att.net> <008f01d014a4$ecee32d0$c6ca9870$@att.net> <00fa01d014cc$70ae2810$520a7830$@att.net> Message-ID: It's closer to 800 million. On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 5:55 PM, spike wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] *On > Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace > *?* > > >?I read that it takes about 100 Million dollars to get a drug to market? > It's a messed-up system bill w > > > > > > Roger that, but 100 megabucks is way lower than the number I have been > hearing for several years. > > > > Have we any recent numbers on that? > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Dec 10 23:43:26 2014 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2014 17:43:26 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Stone age intuition was medical power of attorney In-Reply-To: References: <082101d0127a$3e0269c0$ba073d40$@att.net> <56FA24F2-4EE8-42CB-9F19-4D15EB120535@taramayastales.com> Message-ID: I?m sorry, but most parents would not think it?s a great life strategy for your 14 year old daughter to start pumping out babies. Or for your 15 year old son to start sleeping around to impregnate as many females without birth control as possible (from Tara) Tara, I think you missed my point. From a strictly Darwinian point of view you want as many people as possible coming after you to have some of your genes. Therefore, pimping your daughter fits very nicely into this situation and sending your son off to impregnate willing nymphs also fits perfectly. Thankfully, we do have other motivations. We, alone, of all species, can attend to the quality of our lives and those of our children and even strangers. But we do so at the cost of having fewer people with our genes. bill w On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 2:36 PM, Rafal Smigrodzki < rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com> wrote: > > > On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 3:03 PM, Tara Maya > wrote: > >> The whole point of K VERSUS r is that it DOES sometimes pay to invest >> more in fewer children than to have as many as possible. Otherwise, all >> mammals would have three million kids, like fish. >> >> > ### You are misapplying the concept of K vs r selection. K selection means > small numbers of offspring that are highly likely to succeed. r selection > means large numbers of offspring with lower individual chance of success. > Success is measured by the total fitness of the offspring, i.e. the number > of grandchildren. Applying this terminology to human procreation in 21st > America is inappropriate. There is negligible pre-adult mortality among > humans presently, thus the primary differentiating factor between K and r > is absent. There is an inverse correlation between the financial and time > resources spent on child-rearing and their lifetime fertility, turning the > K vs. r distinction on its head. > -------------------- > > >> I?m sorry, but most parents would not think it?s a great life strategy >> for your 14 year old daughter to start pumping out babies. Or for your 15 >> year old son to start sleeping around to impregnate as many females without >> birth control as possible. As social creatures, the main competition our >> children will face is other humans?humans who have more money, power, >> beauty or social connections than our children. As parents, we may not >> think of it like that, but we are certainly aware if our son gets laughed >> at by the girl he asks to prom, or if our daughter doesn?t have the math >> skills she needs to get a high paying job. >> > > ### Evolutionary analysis does not use social mores as measures of > success, by definition success is measured in inclusive fitness. You can > use other forms of valuation but this is not evolutionary analysis of K vs. > r strategies. > > ------------------------ > >> >> >> Returning to that 20 percent of childless people. First off, that?s not >> as high as you think. Throughout recorded European history, at least, the >> number of people who never marry or have children has always hovered >> between 10% and 20%. So in modern times, it?s not outrageously high. (The >> birthrate increases in a good economy and goes down with a recession.) The >> people who fail to find mates are those who lack the prestige and skills >> valued by their societies. This is the secret purpose behind all the >> frantic parental investment in their children, although most parents >> wouldn?t put it that way. They want their children to be good, healthy, >> happy, attractive people. I.e. the people who easily attract mates and >> start stable families. The paradox is that raising a child to be a good and >> happy person really is the best way to get grandchildren? not pimping out >> your kids three weeks after they hit puberty. >> >> > ### Marrying rich is not a recipe for a lot of children presently. Yes, it > was the case through most of human history, if you read Clark this > fecundity of the rich was what transformed the English over hundreds of > years - but today's America is different. The adaptation for "frantic > paternal investment" does not work today, the environment has changed. > > Also, you seem to imply that frantically spending is the key to raising > children to be happy and good...this does not seem to be the case. > Happiness and moral traits have a strong genetic component, so the best way > to have happy and good children is to be a happy and good person married to > another happy and good person. > > Rafa? > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Thu Dec 11 00:13:59 2014 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2014 16:13:59 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Alzheimers again In-Reply-To: References: <005b01d0149b$a0f52090$e2df61b0$@att.net> <008f01d014a4$ecee32d0$c6ca9870$@att.net> <00fa01d014cc$70ae2810$520a7830$@att.net> Message-ID: And how long does the process usually take now? Last time I read up on this, I believe it was cited as costing around $400 million and as taking around seven years. Regards, Dan > On Dec 10, 2014, at 3:19 PM, Rafal Smigrodzki wrote: > > It's closer to 800 million. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anders at aleph.se Thu Dec 11 00:35:51 2014 From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2014 01:35:51 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Alzheimers again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <918780439-9970@secure.ericade.net> William Flynn Wallace??, 10/12/2014 8:04 PM: It has become so expensive and so hard?to prove the efficacy of a drug or therapy, we stifle experimentation and slow progress nearly to a halt.? I read that it takes about 100 Million dollars to get a drug to market.? Sorry, that must have been a while ago. The latest Tufts estimate is 2.9 billion: http://www.fiercebiotech.com/story/average-cost-drug-rd-try-29b-size/2014-11-18 This is part of the reason of Eroom's law:?http://www.nature.com/nrd/journal/v11/n3/fig_tab/nrd3681_F1.html Yes, this is a system that needs to be fixed. Or circumvented.? Anders Sandberg, Future of Humanity Institute Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anders at aleph.se Thu Dec 11 00:37:15 2014 From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2014 01:37:15 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Smarter mice In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <919014294-9969@secure.ericade.net> James Clement , 9/12/2014 9:37 PM: Goldman and Nedergaard's experiments are primarily concerned with finding ways to remyelinate damaged brains, but they both realize that if used in "normal" people, would likely lead to enhanced intelligence. Of course there's no easy funding for this, at least at this time. How is that supposed to work? I can imagine that a different glial architecture in a mouse has some effect, but in humans we would just get the same glial architecture.? Anders Sandberg, Future of Humanity Institute Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Thu Dec 11 01:15:48 2014 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2014 17:15:48 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Alzheimers again In-Reply-To: References: <005b01d0149b$a0f52090$e2df61b0$@att.net> <008f01d014a4$ecee32d0$c6ca9870$@att.net> <00fa01d014cc$70ae2810$520a7830$@att.net> Message-ID: <00e301d014df$ffbd6850$ff3838f0$@att.net> >?I read that it takes about 100 Million dollars to get a drug to market? It's a messed-up system bill w From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Rafal Smigrodzki Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2014 3:20 PM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] Alzheimers again It's closer to 800 million. On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 5:55 PM, spike wrote: That?s closer to the number I recall, and even then, that?s just for FDA approval, which is not assured. The company still has to market the stuff and sell the hell out of it to even start reeling in that enormous investment. This is how we get stuck with expensive drugs that don?t even work. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Thu Dec 11 06:06:37 2014 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2014 22:06:37 -0800 Subject: [ExI] 67p rosetta d/h In-Reply-To: <020b01d0143d$04ab9a60$0e02cf20$@att.net> References: <020b01d0143d$04ab9a60$0e02cf20$@att.net> Message-ID: <01c001d01508$a0831050$e18930f0$@att.net> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of spike Tomorrow is the day we learn a cool new piece of info! {8-] spike WOWsers! Science reported that the D/H ratio on 67P is 5.3+.7E-4, and I.am. a-freaking-stonished at that number. So, Earth water probably didn't come from the Jupiter family objects. Now I need to go away and think hard, like that nekkid guy on the rock from a long time ago and try to understand this. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From clementlawyer at gmail.com Thu Dec 11 07:04:13 2014 From: clementlawyer at gmail.com (James Clement) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2014 01:04:13 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Smarter mice In-Reply-To: <919014294-9969@secure.ericade.net> References: <919014294-9969@secure.ericade.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 6:37 PM, Anders Sandberg wrote: > How is that supposed to work? I can imagine that a different glial > architecture in a mouse has some effect, but in humans we would just get > the same glial architecture. > > > Hi Anders, that's of course a good question. Both researchers (husband and wife team) were talking about their interest in increasing human myelin layers, which they analogized to laying down intra-brain information-superhighways. For example, "By acting as an electrical insulator, myelin greatly speeds up action potential conduction." See, Increased Conduction Velocity as a Result of Myelination, Purves D, Augustine GJ, Fitzpatrick D, et al., editors. Sunderland (MA): Sinauer Associates; 2001. At the time I met Dr Goldman, he was head of Neurology for the clinic, which sees thousands of cases a year from all over the world. He's now Chief of the Medical Center's Stem Cell and Gene Therapy Dept. Goldman briefed me in 2010 on a stem cell process he was working on which would work to enhance anyone's myelination. I'd like to visit them again and find out what they haven't told the world yet... Cheers, James -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From protokol2020 at gmail.com Thu Dec 11 08:05:12 2014 From: protokol2020 at gmail.com (Tomaz Kristan) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2014 09:05:12 +0100 Subject: [ExI] 67p rosetta d/h In-Reply-To: <01c001d01508$a0831050$e18930f0$@att.net> References: <020b01d0143d$04ab9a60$0e02cf20$@att.net> <01c001d01508$a0831050$e18930f0$@att.net> Message-ID: The science community was mostly wrong, once again. It looks like Anders and I were also right, when saying that might be a problem with too much water for life in the universe. Every good for life planet might be flooded over. (It is here on this list somewhere. And Anders also published a paper.) I have a very unorthodox view on planets, weather and so on, which you can find that on my blog. Our physics is relatively solid, our official planetary science is primitive. Not because we lack data, but because there is too much wishful thinking about this matter. Buck Rogers, Green pagans, Saganism, Trekkism ...to name a few wrong POVs. On Thu, Dec 11, 2014 at 7:06 AM, spike wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] *On > Behalf Of *spike > > > > Tomorrow is the day we learn a cool new piece of info! {8-] > > > > spike > > > > > > > > WOWsers! > > > > Science reported that the D/H ratio on 67P is 5.3*+*.7E-4, and I?am? > a-freaking-stonished at that number. > > > > So, Earth water probably didn?t come from the Jupiter family objects. > > > > Now I need to go away and think hard, like that nekkid guy on the rock > from a long time ago and try to understand this. > > > > spike > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -- https://protokol2020.wordpress.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Thu Dec 11 08:42:57 2014 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2014 03:42:57 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Smarter mice In-Reply-To: <919014294-9969@secure.ericade.net> References: <919014294-9969@secure.ericade.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 7:37 PM, Anders Sandberg wrote: > James Clement , 9/12/2014 9:37 PM: > > Goldman and Nedergaard's experiments are primarily concerned with finding > ways to remyelinate damaged brains, but they both realize that if used in > "normal" people, would likely lead to enhanced intelligence. Of course > there's no easy funding for this, at least at this time. > > > How is that supposed to work? I can imagine that a different glial > architecture in a mouse has some effect, but in humans we would just get > the same glial architecture. > ### It appears that the genetic structure of high IQ involves thousands of not-even-a-little-broken components, i.e. the absence of thousands little mutations that are individually relatively rare and mild but collectively they impose limitations on most brains in dozens of ways. In other words, normal people's brains are broken in thousands of little ways, and that probably includes mild dysfunction of the glia. Astrocytes are crucial for energetic support of neurons - they re-process lactate from neurons, feed and protect them, allowing a furious burn rate that the neurons themselves would not be able to sustain. It's plausible that astrocytes from young very high IQ individuals are better energetically than astrocytes from non-syndromically (=likely widespread mild damage to various aspects of brain function) IQ-limited persons. Of course, replacing astrocytes in an adult human brain is likely to be orders of magnitude more difficult than in mice, so I don't expect any IQ-boost glial stem cell injections anytime soon, although repair of local demyelination defects, which BTW are usually associated with impaired mitochondrial function, might become possible in the not too distant (10 - 30 years) future. I wonder if anybody put one of these injected mice in an MRI scanner to do MRS or in a PET scanner to do an FDG scan - I bet they would find enhanced levels of energy utilization compared to untreated mice. Human brains are tuned to run really hot, even compared to chimpanzees (we have higher levels of glucose transporters in the brain but lower in the muscle, which is why chimps are so much stronger physically but lack, literally, the brain power to match). Most likely the brains of mice are normally tuned to run rather cold, to conserve energy, and human glia neatly slot in a functional module there, replacing a whole chunk of evolutionary programming. Very neat and surprising but not too difficult to understand in hindsight. Rafa? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tara at taramayastales.com Thu Dec 11 19:09:51 2014 From: tara at taramayastales.com (Tara Maya) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2014 11:09:51 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Stone age intuition was medical power of attorney In-Reply-To: References: <082101d0127a$3e0269c0$ba073d40$@att.net> <56FA24F2-4EE8-42CB-9F19-4D15EB120535@taramayastales.com> Message-ID: > On Dec 10, 2014, at 3:43 PM, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > > Thankfully, we do have other motivations. We, alone, of all species, can attend to the quality of our lives and those of our children and even strangers. But we do so at the cost of having fewer people with our genes. But how did we get this way? These values we have had to have been selected for. I think you are making the same mistake as the Social Darwinists (though to reject their goals) of assuming that selection always favors the short term winners. Altruism itself, humor, compassion, passion for intellectual puzzles, art and science, all the things that people think of as human and not beast, all these things were selected for ? and continue to be selected for in human mating. The three things both men and women, across many nations, said they were looking for in a spouse were: Compassion, Intelligence, and Humor. (For short term flings, men looked first for youth/beauty and women for power/money.) These are not detriments to selection. They are advantages. And I believe the same applies to children. Over the long haul, over many generations, having fewer but more compassionate, intelligent and fun children is what pays off? because those are the kind of people other people of our species want to be around. With over 6 billion people on the planet, there are obviously plenty of social niches for countercultural strategies, and we see these. But it?s not the dominant human strategy in any human society. Tara Maya Blog | Twitter | Facebook | Amazon | Goodreads -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tara at taramayastales.com Thu Dec 11 19:11:58 2014 From: tara at taramayastales.com (Tara Maya) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2014 11:11:58 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Smarter mice In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Oh god, it?s the Secret of Nimh! Tara Maya Blog | Twitter | Facebook | Amazon | Goodreads > On Dec 9, 2014, at 1:10 AM, BillK wrote: > > The altered mice still have mouse neurons - the "thinking" cells that > make up around half of all their brain cells. But practically all the > glial cells in their brains, the ones that support the neurons, are > human. > > > Quote: > Goldman's team extracted immature glial cells from donated human > fetuses. They injected them into mouse pups where they developed into > astrocytes, a star-shaped type of glial cell. > > Within a year, the mouse glial cells had been completely usurped by > the human interlopers. The 300,000 human cells each mouse received > multiplied until they numbered 12 million, displacing the native > cells. > > Astrocytes are vital for conscious thought, because they help to > strengthen the connections between neurons, called synapses. Their > tendrils (see image) are involved in coordinating the transmission of > electrical signals across synapses. > > Human astrocytes are 10 to 20 times the size of mouse astrocytes and > carry 100 times as many tendrils. This means they can coordinate all > the neural signals in an area far more adeptly than mouse astrocytes > can. "It's like ramping up the power of your computer," says Goldman. > > A battery of standard tests for mouse memory and cognition showed that > the mice with human astrocytes are much smarter than their mousy > peers. > ------------------- > > > Two thoughts......... > > Would replacing glial cells in Alzheimers patients improve their condition? > > For normal people, would injecting high quality glial cells, say, from > a genius level person, improve their intelligence? > > > BillK > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From atymes at gmail.com Thu Dec 11 19:20:40 2014 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2014 11:20:40 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Smarter mice In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Dec 11, 2014 11:12 AM, "Tara Maya" wrote: > Oh god, it?s the Secret of Nimh! Only if the mice start getting telekinesis on top of intelligence. ;) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Dec 11 22:18:10 2014 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2014 16:18:10 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Smarter mice In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: What this incredible study says to me: >From the mice's point of view, they found out that their glial cells were not designed in the very best way and so profited by an injection of better ones. >From our point of view, we do not know if any better glial cells exist, but can consider the possibility of designing such. The same could go, I suppose, for neurons as well, or even muscles, tendons, bones, glands, the whole shebang. We are now learning to design chromosomes and will learn to design genes if we haven't already. Transhumanism will happen even without installing inorganic anything to link us with something external, like a supercomputer. Bill w On Thu, Dec 11, 2014 at 1:20 PM, Adrian Tymes wrote: > > On Dec 11, 2014 11:12 AM, "Tara Maya" wrote: > > Oh god, it?s the Secret of Nimh! > > Only if the mice start getting telekinesis on top of intelligence. ;) > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Thu Dec 11 23:00:34 2014 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2014 15:00:34 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Smarter mice In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Dec 11, 2014 2:20 PM, "William Flynn Wallace" wrote: > Transhumanism will happen even without installing inorganic anything to link us with something external, like a supercomputer. You mean "can happen". You have no evidence that this path will necessarily shut out others paths that do involve inorganics. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Dec 11 23:11:34 2014 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2014 17:11:34 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Smarter mice In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 11, 2014 at 5:00 PM, Adrian Tymes wrote: > > On Dec 11, 2014 2:20 PM, "William Flynn Wallace" > wrote: > > Transhumanism will happen even without installing inorganic anything to > link us with something external, like a supercomputer. > > You mean "can happen". You have no evidence that this path will > necessarily shut out others paths that do involve inorganics. > ?If we can design an organic (and inheritable) gland/device to receive > radio waves (or some other frequency) then what need have we of > inorganics? I do think it's likely the inorganic link will come first, but > you are right - what evidence do I have? Ha! > ?bill w? > ? > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Thu Dec 11 23:55:47 2014 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2014 15:55:47 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Stone age intuition was medical power of attorney Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 4:14 PM, Rafal Smigrodzki wrote: snip > if you read Clark this > fecundity of the rich was what transformed the English over hundreds of > years - I don't think that's an entirely accurate restatement of Clark's work. What the evidence showed was that the children of the rich were substantially more likely to survive to the date the male parent's will was probated. It's speculative, but it's probable this was because they had a better diet and their parents could provide food through the frequent famines. The poor may have had equal fecundity, but their kids had a lower chance of surviving. Poor and inadequate diet leaves children unable to fight off diseases. Keith From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Fri Dec 12 02:14:11 2014 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2014 21:14:11 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Stone age intuition was medical power of attorney In-Reply-To: References: <082101d0127a$3e0269c0$ba073d40$@att.net> <56FA24F2-4EE8-42CB-9F19-4D15EB120535@taramayastales.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 11, 2014 at 2:09 PM, Tara Maya wrote: > Over the long haul, over many generations, having fewer but more > compassionate, intelligent and fun children is what pays off? because those > are the kind of people other people of our species want to be around. > ### But there is no contradiction between having many children and having intelligent, well-educated, well-socialized ones. Have you ever watched "17 kids and counting"? The Duggars are a remarkably well-behaved, nice, socially adept bunch. In fact, it is the well-organized, smart, conscientious parents who have the ability to produce the most offspring, not the single alcoholics who get knocked up randomly. The well-to-do British had for hundreds of years sustained very high birth rates, in part by using wet nurses, with significant impact on the genetic make-up of the population. There is also no contradiction between being prolific and being happy. I was surprised to learn that the happiness premium enjoyed by the Amish in comparison to the average American is equivalent to the extra happiness you get from being a billionaire. This is not to say that I aspire to having a double-digit brood - as I noted previously, I have only one child (so far) - but the two-child norm is a social construct that can easily be swept away by minor evolutionary or memetic changes. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anders at aleph.se Fri Dec 12 07:32:50 2014 From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2014 08:32:50 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Smarter mice In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1030088917-24808@secure.ericade.net> James Clement , 11/12/2014 8:07 AM: On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 6:37 PM, Anders Sandberg wrote: How is that supposed to work? I can imagine that a different glial architecture in a mouse has some effect, but in humans we would just get the same glial architecture.? Hi Anders, that's of course a good question. Both researchers (husband and wife team) were talking about their interest in increasing human myelin layers, which they analogized to laying down intra-brain information-superhighways. For example, "By acting as an electrical insulator, myelin greatly speeds up action potential conduction." See, Increased Conduction Velocity as a Result of Myelination, Purves D, Augustine GJ, Fitzpatrick D, et al., editors. Sunderland (MA): Sinauer Associates; 2001. At the time I met Dr Goldman, he was head of Neurology for the clinic, which sees thousands of cases a year from all over the world. He's now Chief of the Medical Center's Stem Cell and Gene Therapy Dept. Goldman briefed me in 2010 on a stem cell process he was working on which would work to enhance anyone's myelination. I'd like to visit them again and find out what they haven't told the world yet... Cheers, James Yes, myelin is good for conduction velocity (which is why we have the white matter). But it is not clear this can be extended much further: the cortex needs bare dendritic surfaces to have connecting synapses on - adding myelin would prevent that. As someone in a MS-affected family I am of course all for research boosting myelin anyway, but mostly for therapeutic purposes. Rafal suggested smart people may have better glial cells. This might be worth investigating. There have been claims that Einstein's brain had unusual levels of glial cells (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Einstein%27s_brain#Glial_cells) but this remains to be confirmed. My suspicion is that this is yet another factor that could be a bottleneck in some people but not all.? Anders Sandberg, Future of Humanity Institute Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Fri Dec 12 07:43:04 2014 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2014 23:43:04 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Smarter mice In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 11, 2014 at 3:11 PM, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > > If we can design an organic (and inheritable) gland/device to receive > radio waves (or some other frequency) then what need have we of > inorganics? I do think it's likely the inorganic link will come first, but > you are right - what evidence do I have? Ha! > Consider also which one works better. Biology is infamously messy, the result of compromises and constraints of a certain production method that is not an absolute requirement for future designs. Computers and software may be complex but they are, at some level, the result of conscious designs. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Fri Dec 12 08:30:23 2014 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2014 00:30:23 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Smarter mice In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <22945C48-B527-4D78-99F6-5474C34A9450@gmail.com> On Dec 11, 2014, at 11:43 PM, Adrian Tymes wrote: > >> On Thu, Dec 11, 2014 at 3:11 PM, William Flynn Wallace wrote: >> If we can design an organic (and inheritable) gland/device to receive radio waves (or some other frequency) then what need have we of inorganics? I do think it's likely the inorganic link will come first, but you are right - what evidence do I have? Ha! > > Consider also which one works better. Biology is infamously messy, the result of compromises and constraints of a certain production method that is not an absolute requirement for future designs. Computers and software may be complex but they are, at some level, the result of conscious designs. But some of it is unplanned or spontaneous, no? For instance, the progress of technology itself is the result of planned and spontaneous elements, no? If not, then someone could simply plan out the whole future development and there'd be not surprises, right? Not trying to get too Hayekian here. ;) Regards, Dan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Dec 12 17:59:05 2014 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2014 11:59:05 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Stone age intuition was medical power of attorney In-Reply-To: References: <082101d0127a$3e0269c0$ba073d40$@att.net> <56FA24F2-4EE8-42CB-9F19-4D15EB120535@taramayastales.com> Message-ID: I was surprised to learn that the happiness premium enjoyed by the Amish in comparison to the average American is equivalent to the extra happiness you get from being a billionaire. > > > Rafal > ?You might also be surprised to learn that some studies have shown that > above about $75,000 a year there is little increase in happiness. A > paradox for sure, but then really rich people have worries about losing it, > about security and so on. Adding more and more diamonds and yachts brings > little increase in happiness. bill w? > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Fri Dec 12 18:08:00 2014 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2014 10:08:00 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Money can't buy happiness/was Re: Stone age intuition was medical power of attorney In-Reply-To: References: <082101d0127a$3e0269c0$ba073d40$@att.net> <56FA24F2-4EE8-42CB-9F19-4D15EB120535@taramayastales.com> Message-ID: <54141429-F346-4923-A52E-774B65D3C097@gmail.com> I would like to test this out. If everyone here pools their money together and send it to me, after a year I'll report whether the money has made me happier or not. ;) Regards, Dan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Fri Dec 12 18:13:27 2014 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2014 10:13:27 -0800 Subject: [ExI] cheerful thought, was: RE: Money can't buy happiness... Message-ID: <004a01d01637$54433f50$fcc9bdf0$@att.net> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Dan Sent: Friday, December 12, 2014 10:08 AM To: ExI chat list Subject: [ExI] Money can't buy happiness/was Re: Stone age intuition was medical power of attorney >?I would like to test this out. If everyone here pools their money together and send it to me, after a year I'll report whether the money has made me happier or not. ;) Regards, Dan Dan I would collaborate with you on that. Even if the study doesn?t win a Nobel Prize, or even wins an Ignobel, we can deal with it. On this topic, I have had this crazy high Rosetta reading of 530 ppm on my mind, and a cheerful thought occurred to me. Said to myself: Spike, if you are struggling and worrying about the anomalously high reading of the deuterium to hydrogen ratio on 67P, well you just don?t have enough problems, me lad. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anders at aleph.se Fri Dec 12 23:13:49 2014 From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2014 00:13:49 +0100 Subject: [ExI] cheerful thought In-Reply-To: <004a01d01637$54433f50$fcc9bdf0$@att.net> Message-ID: <1085981055-29510@secure.ericade.net> spike , 12/12/2014 7:29 PM: On this topic, I have had this crazy high Rosetta reading of 530 ppm on my mind, and a cheerful thought occurred to me.? Said to myself: Spike, if you are struggling and worrying about the anomalously high reading of the deuterium to hydrogen ratio on 67P, well you just don?t have enough problems, me lad. Indeed! It is beyond a first world problem, this is a zeroth world problem.? I can by the way happily report that we have another transhumanist PhD in the world since today, Dr Karim Jebari. I was on his examination committee and am happy with his thesis, but I expect him to be even happier tonight.? http://kth.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:768647/FULLTEXT02.pdf http://philpapers.org/s/Karim%20Jebari The most interesting paper IMHO in the thesis was about de-extinction of extinct species, where he showed that by the standards of environmental ethics we ought to do this for some species. An earlier talk applies this to Neanderthals http://slides.com/karimjebari/should-the-neanderthals-be-extinct#/ (while most people outside environmental ethics - Karim included - find their normative ideas problematic, the ideas actually do seem to imply we have a moral duty not to go extinct ourselves). Anders Sandberg, Future of Humanity Institute Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Fri Dec 12 23:31:54 2014 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2014 15:31:54 -0800 Subject: [ExI] cheerful thought In-Reply-To: <1085981055-29510@secure.ericade.net> References: <004a01d01637$54433f50$fcc9bdf0$@att.net> <1085981055-29510@secure.ericade.net> Message-ID: <02d701d01663$d1276e20$73764a60$@att.net> >? On Behalf Of Anders Sandberg Subject: Re: [ExI] cheerful thought spike , 12/12/2014 7:29 PM: >>? this crazy high Rosetta reading of 530 ppm on my mind?Said to myself: Spike, if you are struggling and worrying about the anomalously high reading of the deuterium to hydrogen ratio on 67P, well you just don?t have enough problems, me lad. >?Indeed! It is beyond a first world problem, this is a zeroth world problem. ?Anders Sandberg If one went to heaven only to discover one?s harp was always out of tune and one?s wings didn?t fit right, would those be ith world problems? {8^D What?s the point in being a math geek if you can?t have a weird sense of humor? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Dec 13 01:00:40 2014 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2014 19:00:40 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Money can't buy happiness/was Re: Stone age intuition was medical power of attorney In-Reply-To: <54141429-F346-4923-A52E-774B65D3C097@gmail.com> References: <082101d0127a$3e0269c0$ba073d40$@att.net> <56FA24F2-4EE8-42CB-9F19-4D15EB120535@taramayastales.com> <54141429-F346-4923-A52E-774B65D3C097@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 12, 2014 at 12:08 PM, Dan wrote: > > I would like to test this out. If everyone here pools their money together > and send it to me, after a year I'll report whether the money has made me > happier or not. ;) > > ?No fair! I'm the psychologist. I should get to test it with the group. Besides, who believes self-report data? ? ?Just FYI: we all have a standard of comparison above which yields pleasure and beneath which yield dissatisfaction. If you throw in lots of things that are above that level over time the standard rises so that these things no longer give great pleasure. It can go the other way too, though that is uncommon. All of us have the experience of wanting something badly, then getting it, then becoming less happy over time and begin wanting more/better. The honeymoon is over. The 7 year itch. ? ?Hence trophy wives and a lot more according to Thibaut and Kelly's Social Exchange Theory (in Wikipedia) bill w? > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From msd001 at gmail.com Sat Dec 13 02:31:00 2014 From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2014 21:31:00 -0500 Subject: [ExI] cheerful thought In-Reply-To: <02d701d01663$d1276e20$73764a60$@att.net> References: <004a01d01637$54433f50$fcc9bdf0$@att.net> <1085981055-29510@secure.ericade.net> <02d701d01663$d1276e20$73764a60$@att.net> Message-ID: On Dec 12, 2014 6:47 PM, "spike" wrote: > If one went to heaven only to discover one?s harp was always out of tune and one?s wings didn?t fit right, would those be ith world problems? > > What?s the point in being a math geek if you can?t have a weird sense of humor? It's just one dimension less than that line of course. If not a weird sense of humor I'd have none at all. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Sat Dec 13 02:40:04 2014 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2014 18:40:04 -0800 Subject: [ExI] cheerful thought In-Reply-To: References: <004a01d01637$54433f50$fcc9bdf0$@att.net> <1085981055-29510@secure.ericade.net> <02d701d01663$d1276e20$73764a60$@att.net> Message-ID: <042601d0167e$1ab1ba90$50152fb0$@att.net> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Mike Dougherty Sent: Friday, December 12, 2014 6:31 PM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] cheerful thought On Dec 12, 2014 6:47 PM, "spike" wrote: > >?If one went to heaven only to discover one?s harp was always out of tune and one?s wings didn?t fit right, would those be ith world problems? > >?What?s the point in being a math geek if you can?t have a weird sense of humor? >?It's just one dimension less than that line of course. >?If not a weird sense of humor I'd have none at all. When Descarte came up with the term ?imaginary? for the i axis, I wonder if he realized what potential it creates for geek wordplay? I have heard that he had a horse which understood mathematics, and was a most attentive audience whenever he introduced a new concept. But not in this case, for when the mathematician tried to explain the concept to the beast, it objected with an emphatic NAY! (Brace yourself, you know it is coming. Save yourself, stop reading, flee!) The problem was he put Descarte before the horse. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bbenzai at yahoo.com Sat Dec 13 10:52:50 2014 From: bbenzai at yahoo.com (Ben) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2014 10:52:50 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Smarter mice In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <548C1A82.8010503@yahoo.com> "William Flynn Wallace" wrote: > Transhumanism will happen even without ... I think you're misusing the word 'Transhumanism' there, Bill. It's not something that 'will happen', it's an attitude, a world-view, or at least an aspect of certain world-views. That can mean a million different detailed things, and result in many different paths into the future. Some of them will be purely biological, yes, although many of them won't. And some of them (my favourite ones) will involve such a thorough merging of biological and non-biological that it will ultimately be impossible to tell the difference. Transhumanism is, at its core, the desire to improve the human condition through the rational application of technology. If it can be said to 'happen' at all, it's happening now, and has been for a long time. Ben Zaiboc From bbenzai at yahoo.com Sat Dec 13 11:06:27 2014 From: bbenzai at yahoo.com (Ben) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2014 11:06:27 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Alzheimers again In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <548C1DB3.7060008@yahoo.com> BillK wrote: > In the UK, the Medical Innovation Bill is going through Parliament and has government support. From which: "Lord Saatchi said: 'In dealing with the deadly Ebola outbreak, the World Health Organisation has decided that departure from standard evidence-based treatment is fully justified and essential.'" Groan. What disastrous wording! This is an open invitation for the homoeopathy crowd to come crawling out from under their stones in droves... Ben Zaiboc From js_exi at gnolls.org Sat Dec 13 21:24:29 2014 From: js_exi at gnolls.org (J. Stanton) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2014 13:24:29 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Money, happiness, and extinct species In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <548CAE8D.6070909@gnolls.org> Stanton's Inverse: Money can't buy happiness, but lack of money can cause unhappiness. On 12/13/14 4:00 AM, extropy-chat-request at lists.extropy.org wrote: > The most interesting paper IMHO in the thesis was about de-extinction > of extinct species, where he showed that by the standards of > environmental ethics we ought to do this for some species. The massive bison population of the United States (20-80 million on the Great Plains alone, depending on who you ask) was entirely due to the anthropogenic Quaternary extinction of other browsing and grazing megafauna such as mammoths and giant ground sloths. The echoes of those animals can be seen in plants like the Osage orange and the avocado, both of which are giant fruits with a giant seed too big for any extant animal to propagate by eating and crapping it back out -- but which a multi-ton mammoth or sloth, however, did without trouble. The pre-Columbian Indians went to a great deal of effort to thin ground cover and otherwise maintain forests in an open and hunting-friendly state: it is said that one could ride through a New England forest on a horse at full gallop. This is much more similar to what we think of as "savanna", a biome maintained primarily by the action of giant grazers like elephants and giraffes, and which North American forests before the arrival of humans likely resembled far more than the nearly impenetrable tangle of the modern elephant-less and fire-suppressed era. Note that the modern overpopulation of deer just about everywhere is due to a combination of the expansion of their preferred forest-ish habitat (they're primarily browsers, not grazers), a lack of competition, and a lack of predation. Meanwhile, the argument has been made seriously that elephants should be introduced to North America, as the extant species most similar to what was once there. JS http://www.gnolls.org From sjv2006 at gmail.com Sun Dec 14 02:05:06 2014 From: sjv2006 at gmail.com (Stephen Van Sickle) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2014 18:05:06 -0800 Subject: [ExI] cheerful thought In-Reply-To: <042601d0167e$1ab1ba90$50152fb0$@att.net> References: <004a01d01637$54433f50$fcc9bdf0$@att.net> <1085981055-29510@secure.ericade.net> <02d701d01663$d1276e20$73764a60$@att.net> <042601d0167e$1ab1ba90$50152fb0$@att.net> Message-ID: Have you no shame, sir! s On Dec 12, 2014 6:54 PM, "spike" wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] *On > Behalf Of *Mike Dougherty > *Sent:* Friday, December 12, 2014 6:31 PM > *To:* ExI chat list > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] cheerful thought > > > > > On Dec 12, 2014 6:47 PM, "spike" wrote: > > > >?If one went to heaven only to discover one?s harp was always out of > tune and one?s wings didn?t fit right, would those be ith world problems? > > > >?What?s the point in being a math geek if you can?t have a weird sense > of humor? > > >?It's just one dimension less than that line of course. > > >?If not a weird sense of humor I'd have none at all. > > > > When Descarte came up with the term ?imaginary? for the i axis, I wonder > if he realized what potential it creates for geek wordplay? > > I have heard that he had a horse which understood mathematics, and was a > most attentive audience whenever he introduced a new concept. But not in > this case, for when the mathematician tried to explain the concept to the > beast, it objected with an emphatic NAY! > > (Brace yourself, you know it is coming. Save yourself, stop reading, > flee!) > > The problem was he put Descarte before the horse. > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Sun Dec 14 02:34:34 2014 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2014 18:34:34 -0800 Subject: [ExI] cheerful thought In-Reply-To: References: <004a01d01637$54433f50$fcc9bdf0$@att.net> <1085981055-29510@secure.ericade.net> <02d701d01663$d1276e20$73764a60$@att.net> <042601d0167e$1ab1ba90$50152fb0$@att.net> Message-ID: <02c701d01746$7ff55b00$7fe01100$@att.net> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Stephen Van Sickle Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2014 6:05 PM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] cheerful thought Have you no shame, sir! s Hey pal, I warned you, gave you pleeenty of warning. I wrote: (Brace yourself, you know it is coming. Save yourself, stop reading, flee!) Did you do it? NO! Don?t blame me, I was born this way, honest. Loving math just made it worse. A lot worse. spike When Descarte came up with the term ?imaginary? for the i axis, I wonder if he realized what potential it creates for geek wordplay? I have heard that he had a horse which understood mathematics, and was a most attentive audience whenever he introduced a new concept. But not in this case, for when the mathematician tried to explain the concept to the beast, it objected with an emphatic NAY! (Brace yourself, you know it is coming. Save yourself, stop reading, flee!) The problem was he put Descarte before the horse. _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tara at taramayastales.com Sun Dec 14 04:59:21 2014 From: tara at taramayastales.com (Tara Maya) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2014 20:59:21 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Smarter mice In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Years of watching television science fiction assures me that telekinesis is a natural byproduct of the ability to do calculus. Tara Maya Blog | Twitter | Facebook | Amazon | Goodreads > On Dec 11, 2014, at 11:20 AM, Adrian Tymes wrote: > > On Dec 11, 2014 11:12 AM, "Tara Maya" > wrote: > > Oh god, it?s the Secret of Nimh! > > Only if the mice start getting telekinesis on top of intelligence. ;) > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Mon Dec 15 20:27:24 2014 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2014 13:27:24 -0700 Subject: [ExI] SF Fandom in Sweden Message-ID: I love fandom, and I am especially interested in its various foreign incarnations... Anders, I hope if you have the time, that you can expound a bit about your own memories of growing up as a science fiction loving Swede. http://scifiportal.eu/happy-85th-anniversary-sf-fandom-ahrvid-engholm-sweden/ John : ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Tue Dec 16 21:26:09 2014 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2014 13:26:09 -0800 Subject: [ExI] scurrilous commentary Message-ID: <035f01d01976$e96a2f70$bc3e8e50$@att.net> SONY employees are sweating bullets right now because they know that whoever hacked them might publish any embarrassing thing they wrote in privacy to a recipient. An idea occurred to me which may defeat the dampening effect of such incidents and protect people's privacy in such circumstances: we create an offensive comment generator. Then if one's email is hacked, the hackers can't be sure the sender really wrote the comment, or if it was machine generated. We could collect input commentary from extreme political sites, teen chat, early ExI flame wars, Shakespearean insult collections, sexual dysfunction use-groups, somehow inject references to current events, that sort of thing. Can you software hipsters write a scurrilous-comment generator? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anders at aleph.se Tue Dec 16 21:32:03 2014 From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2014 22:32:03 +0100 Subject: [ExI] SF Fandom in Sweden In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1424215668-18225@secure.ericade.net> John Grigg , 15/12/2014 9:31 PM: I love fandom, and I am especially interested in its various foreign incarnations...? Anders, I hope if you have the time, that you can expound a bit about your own memories of growing up as a science fiction loving Swede. ? Haha! What a fun question (or just excuse to expound). When I grew up, there was a local library about 45 degrees below my room. Quite literally, since it was about 50 meters away from the foot of the building, and I lived on the 11th floor. I spent a lot of time there, going through the science fiction bookshelf. One very notable line of volumes was "Det H?nde Imorgon" ("It Happened Tomorrow"), a series of antologies of translated short stories - both some real classics and more experimental stuff. Gradually I began to notice the editor, Sam J. Lundwall. He was also the editor of the Jules Verne Magazine, a sf periodical. It was in the back pages of that were I encountered strange references to something called fandom. I never got it. I was never much of a joiner. But I loved sf. As I read through the entire shelf (and began going through the counterpart at the local main library) I also noticed the brightly yellow volumes from the published Delta. Again, translations of real classics - Clarke, Asimov, Blish, the Strugatskis, but also weird unknowns and Swedish authors. And it turned out that Lundwall was the editor for Delta too. He *was* Swedish science fiction. He wrote some novels too (the proto-cyberpunk King Kong Blues was a fun satire). At some point in the 90s he got tired of it, and I think Swedish fandom never recovered. Science fiction was not seen as particularly "good" literature, so much I understood. But I never cared. I just found it the perfect escape from the bland square reality of 70s Sweden. At some point I also wanted to make it real, and set out to draw a generation spacecraft. Halfway through the meticulous blueprint I realized that I had no clue if it could work. *How* do you figure out something like that? I guessed it had to do with math and physics, and I began to read more of it to make the sf real. I still do.? One novel that really inspired me was P.C. Jersild's "En Levande Sj?l" ("A Living Soul"). It was the diary of "Upsilon", a brain in a vat living in a somewhat sinister, somewhat chaotic research lab. Upsilon spent its days plotting to seduce one of the nurses and devising ever more elaborate escape plans. It got me interested in the possibility of radically different modes of existence.? So I may never have been part of the fandom per se, but I have always been in the neighbouring cultures - young scientist associations, the local BBS and hacker culture, the transhumanists. I am glad to say that some of the current Swedish transhumanists are writers.? Anders Sandberg, Future of Humanity Institute Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Tue Dec 16 22:21:24 2014 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2014 22:21:24 +0000 Subject: [ExI] scurrilous commentary In-Reply-To: <035f01d01976$e96a2f70$bc3e8e50$@att.net> References: <035f01d01976$e96a2f70$bc3e8e50$@att.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 16, 2014 at 9:26 PM, spike wrote: > SONY employees are sweating bullets right now because they know that whoever > hacked them might publish any embarrassing thing they wrote in privacy to a > recipient. An idea occurred to me which may defeat the dampening effect of > such incidents and protect people's privacy in such circumstances: we create > an offensive comment generator. Then if one's email is hacked, the hackers > can't be sure the sender really wrote the comment, or if it was machine > generated. We could collect input commentary from extreme political sites, > teen chat, early ExI flame wars, Shakespearean insult collections, sexual > dysfunction use-groups, somehow inject references to current events, that > sort of thing. > > Can you software hipsters write a scurrilous-comment generator? > Search - insult generator Many sites have several generators, like buzzwords, etc. BillK From spike66 at att.net Tue Dec 16 22:53:24 2014 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2014 14:53:24 -0800 Subject: [ExI] SF Fandom in Sweden In-Reply-To: <1424215668-18225@secure.ericade.net> References: <1424215668-18225@secure.ericade.net> Message-ID: <03ea01d01983$19c9f360$4d5dda20$@att.net> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Anders Sandberg ? >?Science fiction was not seen as particularly "good" literature, so much I understood. But I never cared. I just found it the perfect escape from the bland square reality of 70s Sweden. ? Anders Sandberg Indeed? You guys had ABBA at their peak, and this is bland square reality? That was hip, man! Sweden was producing some of the best sounds on the FM dial in the 70s. It was dance music that was actually tolerable for musicians to listen to and play. Their lyrics weren?t boring, stupid and repetitive like most of their counterparts of their time, which is why ABBA is still heard on the radio to this day. Where else in rock and roll is found a sparkling jewel of lyrical wisdom such as this: In our lives we have walked some strange and lonely treks, Slighly worn but dignified, and not too old for sex, We?re still striving for the sky, Got taste for humble pie? (When All Is Said and Done) Love it. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Tue Dec 16 23:07:19 2014 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2014 15:07:19 -0800 Subject: [ExI] scurrilous commentary In-Reply-To: References: <035f01d01976$e96a2f70$bc3e8e50$@att.net> Message-ID: <03ef01d01985$0b72c4c0$22584e40$@att.net> >... On Behalf Of BillK Subject: Re: [ExI] scurrilous commentary On Tue, Dec 16, 2014 at 9:26 PM, spike wrote: >>... SONY employees are sweating bullets right now because they know that > whoever hacked them might publish any embarrassing thing they wrote in > privacy to a recipient... Can you software hipsters write a scurrilous-comment generator? > >...Search - insult generator >...Many sites have several generators, like buzzwords, etc. >...BillK _______________________________________________ Ja, what I meant was to write an email generator which would create text that isn't all that clear if the person wrote it or if it was machine generated. So if you are hacked and someone threatens to spill what you wrote, you have plausible deniability. Nothing anywhere on your email archives could ever be useful for evidence against you or for any kind of blackmail or extortion. We could even rig it to where it creates a lot of really sexy racy stuff, so that if you have ever sexted, it makes the genuine stuff seem so bland in comparison. We would rig the thing to send out random texts every few minutes day and night, to each other, with some kind of tricky code in there so that the recipients pool can automatically spam-bucket the machine-generated messages while keeping the real. We could get tricky with it, such that the spam filter would only take out messages in which the number of characters in the message times the number of "th" combinations is equal to the product of exactly two primes, one of which is 37 (for instance.) The eye couldn't readily tell which messages were wheat and which ones were robo-chaff. With that, we wouldn't even need sincere passwords. spike From spike66 at att.net Tue Dec 16 23:45:20 2014 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2014 15:45:20 -0800 Subject: [ExI] scurrilous commentary In-Reply-To: <03ef01d01985$0b72c4c0$22584e40$@att.net> References: <035f01d01976$e96a2f70$bc3e8e50$@att.net> <03ef01d01985$0b72c4c0$22584e40$@att.net> Message-ID: <042301d0198a$5b2ecf40$118c6dc0$@att.net> >... On Behalf Of spike Subject: Re: [ExI] scurrilous commentary >... We could get tricky with it, such that the spam filter would only take out messages in which the number of characters in the message times the number of "th" combinations is equal to the product of exactly two primes, one of which is 37 (for instance.) The eye couldn't readily tell which messages were wheat and which ones were robo-chaff...With that, we wouldn't even need sincere passwords...spike _______________________________________________ To create a message which would be sure to fall into the filter, we could have a computer generated tacked-on sentence that is out of context with the rest of the message. Then to the genuine message, we would tack on a message that would make it look like the computer-generated ones, which could later add to the deniability of the genuine message. Examples of a tacked-on phrase or sentence: Keep the aspidistra flying. The aardvaark sits among the lily roots. Place it over by the samovar. Yorktown is soon to visit with the wind. If we get tricky, we could figure out a code which would allow the user to know for sure which messages were genuine and which were bogus. That way, if we have a recipient who is leaking private info, we could catch them too. Another cool idea: we could intentionally create a hacker trap, baited with racy embarrassing but bogus messages. Then we pretend to fall for their extortions, with Oh please Mister Hacker, please don't reveal my email, I will be so ruined! I will do whatever you ask! We have another account with bogus messages, where the victim takes the opposite strategy: Mister Hacker, go ahead, make my day. Then we watch for the messages to show up on the internet and CATCH the sleazy bastards by figuring out where they are showing up, and which strategy is effective, the Sniveling Worm or the Dirty Harry. Code hipsters, can you do it? spike From spike66 at att.net Wed Dec 17 00:47:39 2014 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2014 16:47:39 -0800 Subject: [ExI] scurrilous commentary In-Reply-To: <042301d0198a$5b2ecf40$118c6dc0$@att.net> References: <035f01d01976$e96a2f70$bc3e8e50$@att.net> <03ef01d01985$0b72c4c0$22584e40$@att.net> <042301d0198a$5b2ecf40$118c6dc0$@att.net> Message-ID: <043001d01993$0ff1b4d0$2fd51e70$@att.net> >... On Behalf Of spike Subject: Re: [ExI] scurrilous commentary >... On Behalf Of spike Subject: Re: [ExI] scurrilous commentary _______________________________________________ >...To create a message which would be sure to fall into the filter, we could have a computer generated tacked-on sentence that is out of context with the rest of the message. Then to the genuine message, we would tack on a message that would make it look like the computer-generated ones, which could later add to the deniability of the genuine message. Examples of a tacked-on phrase or sentence: >...Keep the aspidistra flying... spike OK I created a script which generates almost grammatically correct sentences. This can be used to encode any desired indicator or number. It was by sheer coincidence that the very first time I used the program, it went of sounding a bit suggestive, with that lonely bone business. That was just a cheerful accident. But in any case, we might be able to use this to create camouflage emails. I already see a way to improve this, by making the plurality of the first noun agree with the plurality of the verb, so that you get sentences with bone receives rather than with bone receive or bones receives. The lonely bone receives the tense elated valuables. The curious gathering suck the talented hungry response. The aggressive resolve muddles the adorable careful nail. The helpful cloud fetch the scary tender helper. The hurt studio brake the aggressive alert men. The misty toe curve the lovely victorious doubt. The scary agent behave the confused defeated mate. The gorgeous psychology taste the unusual fancy wife. The disturbed bath remind the innocent frail bake. The powerful suggestion fix the annoyed bright girlfriend. The ugliest science stare the muddy encouraging reputation. The jolly coffee copy the spotless long election. The odd atmosphere present the cheerful smiling female. The silly singer multiply the inexpensive difficult reading. The depressed two ban the unusual curious standard. The envious departure print the frail bad muscle. The weary till order the frantic defeated human. The busy thought glue the annoying different steal. The colorful witness ruin the determined bloody cold. The graceful treat march the smoggy clean patient. The grotesque rope hope the clean stormy exit. The long host copy the cloudy troubled personality. The bright mistake sip the enthusiastic uninterested excitement. The smoggy phrase agree the successful old-fashioned corner. The grotesque muscle guarantee the enchanting spotless coffee. The wandering cause guess the good adventurous human. The wrong dealer arrange the nasty expensive data. The repulsive answer watch the excited panicky call. The jealous control colour the light concerned language. The jolly recording listen the mysterious alert home. The depressed box blot the attractive upset site. The annoying kid excite the thoughtful fancy scale. The depressed iron charge the silly comfortable painting. The embarrassed hurry fancy the funny confused contact. The wicked mom offend the friendly adventurous friendship. The concerned bitter concern the troubled cheerful box. The poised ambition jail the smiling elegant virus. The hurt rule moan the agreeable bright training. The bewildered challenge employ the aggressive embarrassed tea. spike _______________________________________________ From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Wed Dec 17 07:02:35 2014 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2014 00:02:35 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Biotech entrepreneur Tony Coles takes aim at Parkinsons and Alzheimers Message-ID: I hope he succeeds! http://www.forbes.com/sites/matthewherper/2014/12/15/biotech-entrepreneur-tony-coles-takes-aim-at-parkinsons-and-alzheimers/ John : ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Wed Dec 17 07:06:01 2014 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2014 00:06:01 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Interview with Ted Chu, author of "Human Purpose and Transhuman Potential: A Cosmic Vision of Our Future Evolution" Message-ID: "Ted Chu is a professor of economics and former chief economist for General Motors. Most recently, Dr. Chu is the author of Human Purpose and Transhuman Potential: A Cosmic Vision of Our Future Evolution . In my opinion Ted?s book is absolutely profound in the way it draws upon a dazzling variety of philosophical and scientific resources in order to place humanity within a cosmic evolutionary perspective. In that sense I will go as far as claiming that it is a one-of-a-kind book within my transhumanist library and, while it is definitely not an easy or quick read, I enjoyed it very much." https://www.singularityweblog.com/ted-chu/?utm_content=bufferf64c6&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer John : ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Wed Dec 17 07:09:32 2014 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2014 00:09:32 -0700 Subject: [ExI] An interview with Douglas Hofstadter, who is on a quest to develop true A.I. Message-ID: "Douglas Hofstadter, the Pulitzer Prize?winning author of *G?del, Escher, Bach*, thinks we've lost sight of what artificial intelligence really means. His stubborn quest to replicate the human mind." http://m.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2013/11/the-man-who-would-teach-machines-to-think/309529/ John : ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Wed Dec 17 07:14:10 2014 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2014 00:14:10 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Skylon- a plane that can fly anywhere in under four hours! Message-ID: "This craft is powered by a new kind of engine, known as a SABRE engine. REL asserts that this engine will be capable of operating as a jet engine and a rocket engine. Amazingly, it will have the ability to power an aircraft at up to five times the speed of sound within the atmosphere, or it could send a craft directly into Earth orbit at twenty-five times the speed of sound." This was developed by the British, and amazingly, not the United States, despite our huge defense budget... ; ) John : ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Wed Dec 17 17:31:56 2014 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2014 09:31:56 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Skylon- a plane that can fly anywhere in under four hours! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <013901d01a1f$5bce4ee0$136aeca0$@att.net> >? On Behalf Of John Grigg Subject: [ExI] Skylon- a plane that can fly anywhere in under four hours! "This craft is powered by a new kind of engine, known as a SABRE engine? This was developed by the British, and amazingly, not the United States, despite our huge defense budget... ; ) John : ) John I am not going to get too excited by this until I see that they can make that precooler perform the way they say it will. I did the numbers on this a few years ago and they suggested that this precooler would need to be higher performing than any heat exchanger we have. If the Brits get it to work, then I will offer a Jolly good show, chaps, jolly good. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david.gutierrez.abreu at gmail.com Tue Dec 16 21:52:39 2014 From: david.gutierrez.abreu at gmail.com (David Abreu) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2014 22:52:39 +0100 Subject: [ExI] scurrilous commentary In-Reply-To: <035f01d01976$e96a2f70$bc3e8e50$@att.net> References: <035f01d01976$e96a2f70$bc3e8e50$@att.net> Message-ID: OR they'd think it was by them. So it makes things worse. I'm pretty sure just encryption would solve things rather nicely. On Tue, Dec 16, 2014 at 10:26 PM, spike wrote: > > > > > SONY employees are sweating bullets right now because they know that whoever > hacked them might publish any embarrassing thing they wrote in privacy to a > recipient. An idea occurred to me which may defeat the dampening effect of > such incidents and protect people?s privacy in such circumstances: we create > an offensive comment generator. Then if one?s email is hacked, the hackers > can?t be sure the sender really wrote the comment, or if it was machine > generated. We could collect input commentary from extreme political sites, > teen chat, early ExI flame wars, Shakespearean insult collections, sexual > dysfunction use-groups, somehow inject references to current events, that > sort of thing. > > > > Can you software hipsters write a scurrilous-comment generator? > > > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > From spike66 at att.net Wed Dec 17 18:19:57 2014 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2014 10:19:57 -0800 Subject: [ExI] scurrilous commentary In-Reply-To: References: <035f01d01976$e96a2f70$bc3e8e50$@att.net> Message-ID: <017101d01a26$10c13000$32439000$@att.net> On Tue, Dec 16, 2014 at 10:26 PM, spike wrote: > >>... SONY employees are sweating bullets right now because they know that > whoever hacked them might publish any embarrassing thing they wrote in > privacy to a recipient... spike >... On Behalf Of David Abreu Subject: Re: [ExI] scurrilous commentary >...OR they'd think it was by them. So it makes things worse. I'm pretty sure just encryption would solve things rather nicely. Welcome David! When replying, trim the original and put your comment below the comment to which you are replying. This is a longstanding ExI-chat tradition and helps us get the flow of the discussion in chronological order, thanks. Encryption can be broken by guessing passwords or by bribing insiders to hand over the keys. If we had a system like what I envision, then when a big company gets hacked, it can tell its employees they needn't worry about it, for 90% of the company email archives are bogus machine-generated messages which the employees never see, but the hackers can't tell the difference. So if you ever did write an actual scurrilous message, only you know for sure it was you who wrote it. All the metadata collected by evolution-knows-who, shows all the machine-generated messages the same as all the real ones. The filtering is done at the individual machine level. We could even set up bogus senders and receivers, with actual human-generated scurrilous content, such as disrespectful commentary on all the latest politically incorrectness. Then the hackers get that and splay across the headlines that Corporate VP Mortimer Q. Snorklebean wrote to Corporate VP Hephzibah E. Hardlebunz all this garbage insulting the government, the customer, the latest movie star, everything else. Then of course the company only needs to point out that neither Snorklebean nor Hardlebunz exist and that clearly the hackers wrote the offending emails. But before they do, they can bait the hackers along by offering passwords and encryption keys to databases filled with still more bogus material, in exchange for not revealing the damaging email. From that we might be able to trace access. spike From spike66 at att.net Wed Dec 17 19:26:58 2014 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2014 11:26:58 -0800 Subject: [ExI] scurrilous commentary In-Reply-To: <017101d01a26$10c13000$32439000$@att.net> References: <035f01d01976$e96a2f70$bc3e8e50$@att.net> <017101d01a26$10c13000$32439000$@att.net> Message-ID: <017201d01a2f$6d747c40$485d74c0$@att.net> >... On Behalf Of spike >... On Behalf Of David Abreu Subject: Re: [ExI] scurrilous commentary >>...OR they'd think it was by them. So it makes things worse... David >...So if you ever did write an actual scurrilous message, only you know for sure it was you who wrote it...spike One of these techniques I have been using for years: if you have Extropian or H+ oriented friends at your house, have them write something to a public forum under your name. Just for fun, have them imitate your style, see if they can get people to fall for it. I had an ExI party at my house about 15 yrs ago, and we had a bunch of people doing that. It was a hoot; we were all imitating each other, logging on to ExI and inviting the others to post in our style. It was like hearing someone else impersonate you; great fun. Years later, we have plausible deniability if something embarrassing comes up like that Sex Lamas post that I didn't write. Hmmm, OK bad example, I did write that one, but I was drunk. Hmmm, actually I wasn't drinking at all. I was just in a playful mood. But the point is, plenty of us here have written posts we would disown later, and I can for the most part. How many of us wrote things right after the 9/11 attacks we later found out were misguided and stupid? Plenty of us did. spike From atymes at gmail.com Wed Dec 17 19:53:48 2014 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2014 11:53:48 -0800 Subject: [ExI] scurrilous commentary In-Reply-To: <017201d01a2f$6d747c40$485d74c0$@att.net> References: <035f01d01976$e96a2f70$bc3e8e50$@att.net> <017101d01a26$10c13000$32439000$@att.net> <017201d01a2f$6d747c40$485d74c0$@att.net> Message-ID: On Dec 17, 2014 11:41 AM, "spike" wrote: > One of these techniques I have been using for years: if you have Extropian > or H+ oriented friends at your house, have them write something to a public > forum under your name. Just for fun, have them imitate your style, see if > they can get people to fall for it. I had an ExI party at my house about 15 > yrs ago, and we had a bunch of people doing that. It was a hoot; we were > all imitating each other, logging on to ExI and inviting the others to post > in our style. It was like hearing someone else impersonate you; great fun. But then you have trouble claiming credit for anything posted under your name. If you're okay with that, why not just post everything anonymously? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Wed Dec 17 20:28:27 2014 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2014 20:28:27 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Skylon- a plane that can fly anywhere in under four hours! In-Reply-To: <013901d01a1f$5bce4ee0$136aeca0$@att.net> References: <013901d01a1f$5bce4ee0$136aeca0$@att.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 17, 2014 at 5:31 PM, spike wrote: > John I am not going to get too excited by this until I see that they can > make that precooler perform the way they say it will. I did the numbers on > this a few years ago and they suggested that this precooler would need to be > higher performing than any heat exchanger we have. If the Brits get it to > work, then I will offer a Jolly good show, chaps, jolly good. > I would love this to actually work and be built, but I an dubious at present. There seems to be lots of PR, videos, plans and discussion, but very little happening in the real world. Even their optimistic plan won't have an engine built before 2018, with first flight after 2020. That assumes everything works, tests go OK and no funding problems. A lot could go wrong before 2020. BillK From spike66 at att.net Wed Dec 17 21:09:25 2014 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2014 13:09:25 -0800 Subject: [ExI] scurrilous commentary In-Reply-To: References: <035f01d01976$e96a2f70$bc3e8e50$@att.net> <017101d01a26$10c13000$32439000$@att.net> <017201d01a2f$6d747c40$485d74c0$@att.net> Message-ID: <01d001d01a3d$bd8b88f0$38a29ad0$@att.net> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2014 11:54 AM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] scurrilous commentary On Dec 17, 2014 11:41 AM, "spike" wrote: >>? One of these techniques I have been using for years: if you have Extropian > or H+ oriented friends at your house, have them write something to a public > forum under your name. Just for fun, have them imitate your style, see if > they can get people to fall for it. I had an ExI party at my house about 15 > yrs ago, and we had a bunch of people doing that. It was a hoot; we were > all imitating each other, logging on to ExI and inviting the others to post > in our style. It was like hearing someone else impersonate you; great fun. >?But then you have trouble claiming credit for anything posted under your name. If you're okay with that, why not just post everything anonymously? There is that, but this is a public forum. Any idea I toss out here is fair game for anyone to use or claim. I don?t care who gets credit, I don?t care about who makes money off of one of my ideas. I want to see them happen. That is my reward. Anything that has real potential for profit I would take to the patent office. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Wed Dec 17 21:24:58 2014 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2014 13:24:58 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Skylon- a plane that can fly anywhere in under four hours! In-Reply-To: References: <013901d01a1f$5bce4ee0$136aeca0$@att.net> Message-ID: <01f501d01a3f$e9502570$bbf07050$@att.net> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of BillK On Wed, Dec 17, 2014 at 5:31 PM, spike wrote: >>... John I am not going to get too excited by this until I see that they > can make that precooler perform the way they say it will... > If the Brits get it to work, then I will offer a Jolly good show, chaps, jolly good... spike >...I would love this to actually work and be built, but I am dubious at present...BillK _______________________________________________ Ja me too on both BillK. If you British guys make a heat exchanger work way out in a regime where there are speeds waaay out beyond where the usual models were derived, , turbulence, nonlinearities up the kazoo, shock waves all over the place, well then my hat is off to you. I don't even have a hat, so I would need to get one and take it off. If my understanding of a Brayton cycle is even anywhere close to right, this whole scheme depends on precooling the air flow after it has already passed thru one heeellllll of an oblique shock wave, in order to compress it sufficiently to combust in time (before it is spewed out the nozzles.) But with that big of a shock wave, you have plasma taking away energy and interfering with combustion, you have all kinds of nonlinearities that are known, never mind all the weird stuff that shock waves do, such as Mach diamonds, which are said to be caused by shock waves bouncing off of each other: http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--zvIqmCkw--/c_fit,fl_prog ressive,q_80,w_636/17wf5vvh2sobzjpg.jpg http://www.wvi.com/~sr71webmaster/sr71engb.jpg Is that cool or what? spike From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Wed Dec 17 23:31:15 2014 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2014 15:31:15 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Skylon- a plane that can fly anywhere in under four hours! Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 17, 2014 at 4:00 AM, John Grigg wrote: > "This craft is powered by a new kind of engine, known as a SABRE engine. > REL asserts that this engine will be capable of operating as a jet engine > and a rocket engine. Amazingly, it will have the ability to power an > aircraft at up to five times the speed of sound within the atmosphere, or > it could send a craft directly into Earth orbit at twenty-five times the > speed of sound." > > This was developed by the British, and amazingly, not the United States, > despite our huge defense budget... ; ) I visited Reaction Engines when they were in the middle of testing the precooler two years ago. It's a very slick combustion cycle that recovers much of the energy that goes into liquifying hydrogen. They have serious funding to produce the engine, some of it from the UK government. Keith From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Dec 18 01:58:12 2014 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2014 19:58:12 -0600 Subject: [ExI] xmas Message-ID: Check out the science gifts - gotta love the 3d pen. http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/symbiartic/201/12/10/10-original-gifts-for-science-and-art-geeks/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Thu Dec 18 16:44:58 2014 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2014 08:44:58 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Skylon- a plane that can fly anywhere in under four hours! Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 18, 2014 at 4:00 AM, "spike" wrote: >>? On Behalf Of John Grigg > "This craft is powered by a new kind of engine, known as a SABRE engine? > This was developed by the British, and amazingly, not the United States, despite our huge defense budget... ; ) > > John I am not going to get too excited by this until I see that they can make that precooler perform the way they say it will. I did the numbers on this a few years ago and they suggested that this precooler would need to be higher performing than any heat exchanger we have. If the Brits get it to work, then I will offer a Jolly good show, chaps, jolly good. Spike, they did. And indeed the performance is better than any previous heat exchanger. The tubing is so fine that the things look like fabric. I have seen them up close. It was making and testing the precooler (performed to spec) which convinced the UK government to grant them 60 million pounds a year ago in June. The precooler is nothing special in terms of design. You need a lot of area to transfer a good fraction of a GW, and they got it by using really fine tubing, some 27 km of it. What amazed me was that these things, with thousands of brazed joints, don't leak helium. Keith From spike66 at att.net Thu Dec 18 17:07:52 2014 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2014 09:07:52 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Skylon- a plane that can fly anywhere in under four hours! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00c901d01ae5$297ee780$7c7cb680$@att.net> >... On Behalf Of Keith Henson Subject: Re: [ExI] Skylon- a plane that can fly anywhere in under four hours! > >>... John I am not going to get too excited by this until I see that they can make that precooler perform the way they say it will. I did the numbers on this a few years ago and they suggested that this precooler would need to be higher performing than any heat exchanger we have. If the Brits get it to work, then I will offer a Jolly good show, chaps, jolly good. >...Spike, they did. And indeed the performance is better than any previous heat exchanger. The tubing is so fine that the things look like fabric. I have seen them up close. Cool, Keith that gives me confidence in those calculations I did. It looked to me like they would need something like that to get sufficient heat transfer. In general a pressure tube wall thickness is proportional to its inner diameter, which makes sense if you look at the equations for hoop stress in a cylinder. Greater heat transfer means smaller ID tubes, thinner walls, and so forth. My single-digit BOTECs were suggesting a heat exchanger that would do the job would need tubes smaller than anything I have seen, which makes them very delicate and subject to leakage. The next trick they must have solved is figuring out how to make this heat exchanger stand up to a shock wave. Now that's technology indistinguishable from magic. ... >...What amazed me was that these things, with thousands of brazed joints, don't leak helium. Keith _______________________________________________ Ja, helium wants to be free. That stuff is hard to contain. Any tiny crack or imperfection in any joint or anywhere and it's game over man. spike From anders at aleph.se Thu Dec 18 22:17:11 2014 From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2014 23:17:11 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Skylon- a plane that can fly anywhere in under four hours! In-Reply-To: <00c901d01ae5$297ee780$7c7cb680$@att.net> Message-ID: <1601673215-8907@secure.ericade.net> spike??, 18/12/2014 6:23 PM: >...What amazed me was that these things, with thousands of brazed joints,? don't leak helium. ?Keith? _______________________________________________? Ja, helium wants to be free. ?That stuff is hard to contain. ?Any tiny crack? or imperfection in any joint or anywhere and it's game over man.? So maybe the real limiting factor is how well the cooler can survive actual usage (and the occasional bird in the intake). I have the impression that this is finicky technology, despite the good people behind it. But it would be awesome to get to space using UK technology, just for the sheer unlikeliness of it (for those who don't know, the UK always looks a bit shoddy since the place industrialized first and got stuck with an infrastructure generations behind).? Anders Sandberg, Future of Humanity Institute Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anders at aleph.se Thu Dec 18 22:23:10 2014 From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2014 23:23:10 +0100 Subject: [ExI] xmas In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1601930197-8844@secure.ericade.net> William Flynn Wallace , 18/12/2014 3:02 AM: Check out the science gifts - gotta love the 3d pen. http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/symbiartic/201/12/10/10-original-gifts-for-science-and-art-geeks/ I found mine in position 31 in the periodic table.? I am giving my niece and nephews mugs with the parts of the skeleton, the periodic table, the Greek alphabet, the Nato alphabet and the basic knots.? As a philosophy gift, I can recommend "Does Santa Exist?: A Philosophical Investigation" by Eric Kaplan.? Newtonmass is after all the time for learning and debate.? Anders Sandberg, Future of Humanity Institute Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Fri Dec 19 06:01:33 2014 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2014 22:01:33 -0800 Subject: [ExI] quiet growth Message-ID: <001a01d01b51$3ec76420$bc562c60$@att.net> We always notice the big breakthrough technologies, those episodic new-thing headlines like the Google car, and Siri, and all the splashy stuff. Consider the quieter forms of growth. Imagine you have a safe but boring stock fund, or a sleepy retirement account you never pay attention to, seldom check it from one year to the next, but become aware that it is way bigger than you thought. One long-shot penny stock went crazy and made you far more well off than you realize, woohoo! We watched the instruction videos such as Khan Academy and the other ones develop, school stuff. Most of us are long past school, but now, quietly in the background, a form of wealth appeared: instructional videos on how to fix things that break around your house. California went several years with very little rain, but now it is drenching us. Five houses on my street had roof leaks, so the roofers were out in force making a fortune. I went and googled on roof repairs with my style of concrete shingle and found plenty of good suggestions. So I got up there and did them. Next rainstorm was yesterday, leak fixed, cost zero point double naughts, my favorite price tag. I already owned the little bit of material required. The existence of those videos represent both a form of wealth and a threat to capitalism: they teach me to do stuff myself, so this is money in my pocket and money not in the pockets of the local roofers, and not in the pockets of the various government agencies which take a cut of every transaction (not in this case, for the roofers are illegal aliens who pay no taxes.) All those home-repair videos came about in the last ten to fifteen years is quiet growth of wealth; nothing spectacular or splashy, but the cumulative effect is high. With respect to transhumanism, I must think that accumulated knowledge of programming in the general population is a form of quiet growth towards Transhumanist goals. Hope so. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Fri Dec 19 10:30:02 2014 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2014 10:30:02 +0000 Subject: [ExI] quiet growth In-Reply-To: <001a01d01b51$3ec76420$bc562c60$@att.net> References: <001a01d01b51$3ec76420$bc562c60$@att.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 19, 2014 at 6:01 AM, spike wrote: > California went several years with very little rain, but now it is drenching > us. Five houses on my street had roof leaks, so the roofers were out in > force making a fortune. I went and googled on roof repairs with my style of > concrete shingle and found plenty of good suggestions. So I got up there > and did them. Next rainstorm was yesterday, leak fixed, cost zero point > double naughts, my favorite price tag. I already owned the little bit of > material required. > > All those home-repair videos came about in the last ten to fifteen years is > quiet growth of wealth; nothing spectacular or splashy, but the cumulative > effect is high. > Congratulations on successful DIY! A good repair job does give a great sense of achievement. (As you know from motorbikes). However, ladders and roofs are surprisingly dangerous. Check the accident statistics. One estimate said about 1,000 people a month in the UK are taken to hospital after an argument with a ladder. And if you include all home repair accidents there is a continual stream of hospital admissions. Using unfamiliar tools and equipment with little training is risky. There are lots of videos of people falling off roofs and ladders, sawing trees that fall on houses and cars, etc. DIY (Do it yourself) is dangerous! > > > With respect to transhumanism, I must think that accumulated knowledge of > programming in the general population is a form of quiet growth towards > Transhumanist goals. Hope so. > Maybe.... But modern tech is transforming humanity anyway. BillK From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Fri Dec 19 15:00:57 2014 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2014 08:00:57 -0700 Subject: [ExI] quiet growth In-Reply-To: References: <001a01d01b51$3ec76420$bc562c60$@att.net> Message-ID: Spike, I found your posting "quietly inspirational." I think that even if you were a billionaire, that you will still be up on that roof, potentially risking your life, to save some money and also feel self-reliant! : ) I look forward to the day when via virtual reality, we can learn online in ways that smack of an interactive Star Trek holodeck. John : ) On Fri, Dec 19, 2014 at 3:30 AM, BillK wrote: > > On Fri, Dec 19, 2014 at 6:01 AM, spike wrote: > > California went several years with very little rain, but now it is > drenching > > us. Five houses on my street had roof leaks, so the roofers were out in > > force making a fortune. I went and googled on roof repairs with my > style of > > concrete shingle and found plenty of good suggestions. So I got up there > > and did them. Next rainstorm was yesterday, leak fixed, cost zero point > > double naughts, my favorite price tag. I already owned the little bit of > > material required. > > > > All those home-repair videos came about in the last ten to fifteen years > is > > quiet growth of wealth; nothing spectacular or splashy, but the > cumulative > > effect is high. > > > > Congratulations on successful DIY! A good repair job does give a > great sense of achievement. > (As you know from motorbikes). > > However, ladders and roofs are surprisingly dangerous. Check the > accident statistics. > One estimate said about 1,000 people a month in the UK are taken to > hospital after an argument with a ladder. And if you include all home > repair accidents there is a continual stream of hospital admissions. > Using unfamiliar tools and equipment with little training is risky. > There are lots of videos of people falling off roofs and ladders, > sawing trees that fall on houses and cars, etc. > DIY (Do it yourself) is dangerous! > > > > > > > With respect to transhumanism, I must think that accumulated knowledge of > > programming in the general population is a form of quiet growth towards > > Transhumanist goals. Hope so. > > > > > Maybe.... But modern tech is transforming humanity anyway. > > BillK > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Fri Dec 19 15:59:22 2014 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2014 07:59:22 -0800 Subject: [ExI] quiet growth In-Reply-To: References: <001a01d01b51$3ec76420$bc562c60$@att.net> Message-ID: <00ec01d01ba4$c2406150$46c123f0$@att.net> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of John Grigg Sent: Friday, December 19, 2014 7:01 AM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] quiet growth >>?Spike, I found your posting "quietly inspirational." John : ) John you are too kind, sir. On Fri, Dec 19, 2014 at 3:30 AM, BillK wrote: >?Congratulations on successful DIY! A good repair job does give a great sense of achievement. (As you know from motorbikes). >?However, ladders and roofs are surprisingly dangerous. Check the accident statistics? Ja, here?s another spin on it. When riding a motorcycle, a prole knows he is exposed as all hell, that it is an added dimension of risk, that it is unforgiving, so the level of concentration is raised a notch, or several notches, to compensate. A biker isn?t fooling with a radio or texting, she is focusing on the next thing that could jump out and kill her. Ladders: you know you are up high, that ladders can fall over and so forth, so when a homeowner is up there, she partially compensates and does things in a careful manner like the biker. However? When a smoke detector battery gives out it starts chirping and you can?t ignore it, so the usual reaction of the homeowner is to get a chair. Under those conditions there is not really the perception that this is a dangerous activity, because it isn?t for most of your life: even I am still young enough to fall off a chair without injury, in my tragically late youth. But the elderly can really thrash themselves that way. It is something kind of unusual: feet in a restricted area, standing without the usual references to the sides, looking up and reaching overhead with both hands which can confuse the balance organs. It is easy for me to envision a geezer falling off a chair trying to change a smoke detector battery. So here?s my line of reasoning in reference to quiet growth. Building codes were derived to require smoke detectors which have a battery backup in case power fails in a fire (that can happen of course, so we get the reasoning behind it.) But the batteries drain over time, and when the battery gets low, it causes chirping, then proles damage or slay themselves in the attempt to remedy the situation in the middle of the night. Perhaps the requirement for a battery backup damaged or slew more proles than it saved. Over the years, building codes have reduced electrical fires to practically nothing, so the advantage of a battery backup has declined while the number of drunken and/or stoned geezers has increased. So we may have a rare case where building codes should go directly from requiring battery backup in smoke detectors to prohibiting battery backup in smoke detectors. Back to your point BillK: your estimate suggested a kiloprole per month in Jolly Olde suffers from ladder accidents. Without looking up anything, we can attempt a single digit mental calculation. England is like the US (other than that odd way you guys talk American) and I think the colonies have about triple the population, so we can estimate 3k per month or about 40k per year colonists end up in the body shop or the morgue from ladder falls. I can?t be sure of course, but my estimate for chair-falls from smoke detectors could easily be that high if not higher, because a typical home has about 8 smoke detectors, and they fail in the middle of the night when one doesn?t feel like going for a ladder, especially if one has been imbibing. I live in an area where I estimate there are 100k people close enough to my abode such that if a house fire occurs, I can hear the siren. I estimate that area has less than 5 house fires per year, so 5 in 100k, scale that to the nation, I get around 10k to 20k house fires per year. A house might have an average of 3 residents, so one might be up around the 40 kiloproles per year impacted by house fires, but wait; my original notion was that the battery backup in the smoke detectors. Only a fraction of these would fail because of the power being off in a house fire, the majority of which in our modern times are caused by the residents becoming stoned or drunk and forgetting something on the stove, in which case the power goes right on (kitchens are on a separate circuit protected by ground fault breakers.) I would estimate that about four times as much damage or serious death is caused by battery-backups in smoke detectors than is prevented. So what do we do? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Fri Dec 19 17:44:27 2014 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2014 09:44:27 -0800 Subject: [ExI] privacy this time, and smoke detectors again, was: RE: quiet growth Message-ID: <016801d01bb3$6feca4e0$4fc5eea0$@att.net> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of spike >?building codes should go directly from requiring battery backup in smoke detectors to prohibiting battery backup in smoke detectors. >?Back to your point BillK: your estimate suggested a kiloprole per month in Jolly Olde suffers from ladder accidents? we can estimate 3k per month or about 40k per year colonists end up in the body shop or the morgue from ladder falls? OK so I was way off on my estimate of number of house fires, but ironically very close on the numbers of proles damaged or destroyed in house fires: http://www.usfa.fema.gov/data/statistics/ I think they are counting any cooking experiment which gets a little out of hand as a house fire. All those firemen need to justify their existence. I was counting only those which pose a real danger to the residents. I like these trends. We are down to about 17 kilo-injuries and 3k expirations due to house fires, down considerably in just the last decade. The problem is we don?t get data specifically from falls due to drunkards trying to change the battery in the smoke detector. It all gets lumped into falls in the household. OK then, we have the building code requiring that the smoke detector be mounted to the ceiling, which makes sense because smoke is hot and rises, but if they require instead that they be mounted on the wall at a height of two meters, any drunken fool could remove the chirping device and smash it to shards without a chair. The detector mounted 3 meters from the floor would still detect smoke up high, even if it introduced a slight delay. Current building code requires both a battery backup and a power cable to each detector, but this in itself introduces yet another risk. Note the camera on your cell phone, how small is the lens, and note your smoke detector LED. A sneaky landlord could rig the smoke detectors with cell phone cameras then create nekkid videos of her tenants, that sort of thing. The phone camera could be removed and disguised inside the smoke detector, with a memory device. This could create video files, then send them over the power cable to a device disguised as the voltage transformer (smoke detectors work on low voltage.) Then the sneaky landlord could call the central device and collect her possibly-embarrassing video without the risk of detection of Bluetooth signals. The power cables to the smoke detectors could cover the tracks of the surreptitious observer. Since I am on the topic, if you care at all about your own privacy, you must realize that any public restroom or hotel room could potentially have video detection hidden in it already. From a purely technical standpoint, it would be easy to hide a modern video camera in a hotel room. You have seen them, ja? They are smaller than a sugar cube. If they are ever discovered, there is no way to know whodunit, so there is no risk. Any commie Nork could place them, then blackmail whoever they caught on candid camera. Cell phones are so cheap we toss them in the trash every couple years when a new one comes along. In my own misspent youth, we used to take trashed electronics apart and reuse the pieces in other applications, but we were talking resistors, transistors, capacitors and inductors. Now those misspending their youth can take a trashed cell phone and retrieve a fully functioning video camera with the ability to call it remotely and watch anything anywhere. We have no assured privacy anywhere outside our homes. For that matter, these cameras are so small it is only a matter of time before some sneaky reprobate glues one to the back of a goddam cockroach and gets it to crawl thru your ventilation system into your bedroom. My only protection is I have nothing anyone would want to see. Do you? spike I live in an area where I estimate there are 100k people close enough to my abode such that if a house fire occurs, I can hear the siren. I estimate that area has less than 5 house fires per year, so 5 in 100k, scale that to the nation, I get around 10k to 20k house fires per year. A house might have an average of 3 residents, so one might be up around the 40 kiloproles per year impacted by house fires, but wait; my original notion was that the battery backup in the smoke detectors. Only a fraction of these would fail because of the power being off in a house fire, the majority of which in our modern times are caused by the residents becoming stoned or drunk and forgetting something on the stove, in which case the power goes right on (kitchens are on a separate circuit protected by ground fault breakers.) I would estimate that about four times as much damage or serious death is caused by battery-backups in smoke detectors than is prevented. So what do we do? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anders at aleph.se Fri Dec 19 21:59:09 2014 From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2014 22:59:09 +0100 Subject: [ExI] quiet growth In-Reply-To: <001a01d01b51$3ec76420$bc562c60$@att.net> Message-ID: <1686927638-11684@secure.ericade.net> spike , 19/12/2014 7:20 AM: ? All those home-repair videos came about in the last ten to fifteen years is quiet growth of wealth; nothing spectacular or splashy, but the cumulative effect is high. Yes! People totally underestimate the value inherent in Wikipedia, that can be glanced at the Mayo clinic info pages, the numerous threads about a software problem. We are sharing human capital in better and better ways. Quiet knowledge growth is powerful just like the Flynn effect, like the spread of cellphones, like literacy.? ?With respect to transhumanism, I must think that accumulated knowledge of programming in the general population is a form of quiet growth towards Transhumanist goals. ? There is that, but also the increased ability to share good solutions and recipes. I don't have to be a statistics geek to use a good routine in R, nor (on a slightly darker turn) a hacker to use a rootkit. We crystalize and outsource skills, making them cheaply available to everybody.? Anders Sandberg, Future of Humanity Institute Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lubkin at unreasonable.com Fri Dec 19 21:36:06 2014 From: lubkin at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2014 16:36:06 -0500 Subject: [ExI] I, Engineer Message-ID: <201412192234.sBJMYvNc026092@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Sunday I began a daily blog ("I, Engineer") to share and discuss some of what I've learned about engineering, leading teams, problem-solving, etc., from my own career, people I've worked with, and family back to 1928. As I see it, engineer is another way to say creative problem-solver and toolmaker. We all do it; it goes with homo sapiens. Or perhaps I should say, homo faber. It's not extropian per se. Except that what we talk about here are tools. Pancritical rationalism, E-Prime, n?otropics, and Matrioshka brains are cognitive tools. SENS, cryonics, and uploading are tools for being around for the future. Moving to space solves various species and planetary problems. Nanotech is a tool for almost everything. Of course you're all encouraged to read and to comment, there or privately. http://blog.unreasonable.com -- David. From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Sat Dec 20 03:09:17 2014 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2014 19:09:17 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Skylon heat exchangers Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 19, 2014 at 4:00 AM, "spike" wrote: snip > > The next trick they must have solved is figuring out how to make this heat > exchanger stand up to a shock wave. Now that's technology indistinguishable > from magic. The heat exchangers are not exposed to the shock wave. The air goes through two shock waves on the way into the engine so it's all subsonic when it goes through the heat exchanger. I spent a lot of time with the spreadsheets for the climb through the atmosphere. What they do is fly up the constant pressure line. The air pressure inside the engine is about half an atmosphere all the way up. Keith From spike66 at att.net Sat Dec 20 04:32:28 2014 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2014 20:32:28 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Skylon heat exchangers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000901d01c0d$f7069260$e513b720$@att.net> >... On Behalf Of Keith Henson Subject: [ExI] Skylon heat exchangers On Fri, Dec 19, 2014 at 4:00 AM, "spike" wrote: snip > >>... The next trick they must have solved is figuring out how to make this > heat exchanger stand up to a shock wave. Now that's technology > indistinguishable from magic. >...The heat exchangers are not exposed to the shock wave. The air goes through two shock waves on the way into the engine so it's all subsonic when it goes through the heat exchanger... Keith Keith after two oblique shock waves the air flow is so turbulent they might be better off facing supersonic flow. But if they can make this work, it will be the biggest breakthrough in space technology in my lifetime. I am cheering for them. Here's why I haven't completely lost faith in the whole notion, an experiment you can do at home. Go get a garden hose and find a spider web. Check out how much flow you can spray at that web and still it stands. Every notion I have about flow and strength of materials would tell me there is no way that web could hold up to a garden hose, even with a nozzle on it, but it does. Now don't take my word for it; go out there and start spraying. I have no equations that would explain why the heck that happens. spike From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Sat Dec 20 05:39:30 2014 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2014 22:39:30 -0700 Subject: [ExI] I, Engineer In-Reply-To: <201412192234.sBJMYvNc026092@andromeda.ziaspace.com> References: <201412192234.sBJMYvNc026092@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Message-ID: David, I look forward to following your blog! I brought shame to my family line by not inheriting the "engineering genes," most in my clan (on my dad's side, except for my dad) have in spades, but at least now I can vicariously learn through you. John : ) On Fri, Dec 19, 2014 at 2:36 PM, David Lubkin wrote: > Sunday I began a daily blog ("I, Engineer") to share and discuss some of > what I've learned about engineering, leading teams, problem-solving, etc., > from my own career, people I've worked with, and family back to 1928. > > As I see it, engineer is another way to say creative problem-solver and > toolmaker. We all do it; it goes with homo sapiens. Or perhaps I should > say, homo faber. > > It's not extropian per se. Except that what we talk about here are tools. > Pancritical rationalism, E-Prime, n?otropics, and Matrioshka brains are > cognitive tools. SENS, cryonics, and uploading are tools for being around > for the future. Moving to space solves various species and planetary > problems. Nanotech is a tool for almost everything. > > Of course you're all encouraged to read and to comment, there or privately. > > http://blog.unreasonable.com > > > -- David. > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com Sat Dec 20 06:21:06 2014 From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2014 22:21:06 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Skylon heat exchangers Message-ID: <1419056466.39533.BPMail_high_carrier@web160505.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ------------------------------ On Fri, Dec 19, 2014 8:32 PM PST spike wrote: >>... On Behalf Of Keith Henson >Subject: [ExI] Skylon heat exchangers > >On Fri, Dec 19, 2014 at 4:00 AM, "spike" wrote: > >snip >> >>... The next trick they must have solved is figuring out how to make this >> heat exchanger stand up to a shock wave. Now that's technology >> indistinguishable from magic. > >>...The heat exchangers are not exposed to the shock wave. The air goes >through two shock waves on the way i engine so it's all subsonic when >it goes through the heat exchanger... Keith > >Keith after two oblique shock waves the air flow is so turbulent they might >be better off facing supersonic flow. But if they can make this work, it >will be the biggest breakthrough in space technology in my lifetime. I am >cheering for them. So am I. Single stage to orbit is Buck Rogers stuff. >Here's why I haven't completely lost faith in the whole notion, an >experiment you can do at home. Go get a garden hose and find a spider web. >Check out how much flow you can spray at that web and still it stands. >Every notion I have about flow and strength of materials would tell me there >is no way that web could hold up to a garden hose, even with a nozzle on it, >but it does. Now don't take my word for it; go out there and start >spraying. I have no equations that would explain why the heck that happens. That's spider silk for you. It has approximately the same tensile strength as steel but can deform a lot further before failing. So it can withstand similar forces through a longer distance, ergo it takes more work to snap a spider web than a steel wire of the same diameter. Also the spider web is incredibly thin, so very low surface area is presented to the pressure wave or fluid flow. So the drag forces on the web would be pretty low. A relevant bit of trivia is that some South American tribes weave fishing nets out of orb weaver silk for fishing in rivers. Stuart LaForge From jay.dugger at gmail.com Fri Dec 19 12:30:04 2014 From: jay.dugger at gmail.com (Jay Dugger) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2014 06:30:04 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Skylon- a plane that can fly anywhere in under four hours! Message-ID: [Snip] > So maybe the real limiting factor is how well the cooler can survive actual usage (and the occasional bird in the intake). I have the impression that this is finicky technology, despite the good people behind it. > This magic (in the sufficiently advanced sense of the term ) heat exchanger has been worked on for the last 20 years or more. The available numbers have very favorably impressed everyone I've shown them to in the aviation community. I'd like to know more about non-aerospace applications for such a thing, but I've seen no speculation along those lines. > > But it would be awesome to get to space using UK technology, just for the sheer unlikeliness of it (for those who don't know, the UK always looks a bit shoddy since the place industrialized first and got stuck with an infrastructure generations behind).? Hear hear! Score another point for Mother England--so long as we don't have eat British food off-Earth. Finally, AvLeak had a press release, ahem, cover article in the last twelve months on a vaguely described Lockheed-Martin project or aircraft with very similar performance claims. FWIW. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kellycoinguy at gmail.com Sat Dec 20 07:48:41 2014 From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2014 00:48:41 -0700 Subject: [ExI] quiet growth In-Reply-To: <00ec01d01ba4$c2406150$46c123f0$@att.net> References: <001a01d01b51$3ec76420$bc562c60$@att.net> <00ec01d01ba4$c2406150$46c123f0$@att.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 19, 2014 at 8:59 AM, spike wrote: > Building codes were derived to require smoke detectors which have a > battery backup in case power fails in a fire (that can happen of course, so > we get the reasoning behind it.) But the batteries drain over time, and > when the battery gets low, it causes chirping, then proles damage or slay > themselves in the attempt to remedy the situation in the middle of the > night. Perhaps the requirement for a battery backup damaged or slew more > proles than it saved. > To paraphrase and repurpose "God is not Good" by the late but stylish Christopher Hitchens, I would say, "Government poisons everything, including our own faculties of discernment. As well as a menace to civilization, it has become a threat to human survival." -Kelly -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Sat Dec 20 09:10:15 2014 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2014 09:10:15 +0000 Subject: [ExI] quiet growth In-Reply-To: <00ec01d01ba4$c2406150$46c123f0$@att.net> References: <001a01d01b51$3ec76420$bc562c60$@att.net> <00ec01d01ba4$c2406150$46c123f0$@att.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 19, 2014 at 3:59 PM, spike wrote: > So here's my line of reasoning in reference to quiet growth. Building codes > were derived to require smoke detectors which have a battery backup in case > power fails in a fire (that can happen of course, so we get the reasoning > behind it.) But the batteries drain over time, and when the battery gets > low, it causes chirping, then proles damage or slay themselves in the > attempt to remedy the situation in the middle of the night. Perhaps the > requirement for a battery backup damaged or slew more proles than it saved. > > Over the years, building codes have reduced electrical fires to practically > nothing, so the advantage of a battery backup has declined while the number > of drunken and/or stoned geezers has increased. So we may have a rare case > where building codes should go directly from requiring battery backup in > smoke detectors to prohibiting battery backup in smoke detectors. > > I live in an area where I estimate there are 100k people close enough to my > abode such that if a house fire occurs, I can hear the siren. I estimate > that area has less than 5 house fires per year, so 5 in 100k, scale that to > the nation, I get around 10k to 20k house fires per year. A house might > have an average of 3 residents, so one might be up around the 40 kiloproles > per year impacted by house fires, but wait; my original notion was that the > battery backup in the smoke detectors. Only a fraction of these would fail > because of the power being off in a house fire, the majority of which in our > modern times are caused by the residents becoming stoned or drunk and > forgetting something on the stove, in which case the power goes right on > (kitchens are on a separate circuit protected by ground fault breakers.) > > I would estimate that about four times as much damage or serious death is > caused by battery-backups in smoke detectors than is prevented. > > So what do we do? > Recalculate your stats ??? :) Most detector batteries will be replaced once per year, in daylight, carefully, when sober. i.e. regular maintenance, not midnight drunken panic. :) You can also get lithium batteries that last 7-10 years, so, as that is about the expected life of a detector, you just replace the whole unit. A local handyman can do all that for elderly people. A house fire is a much more significant accident than maybe falling off low steps while replacing a battery. Most people will rarely fall off low steps, and even if they do, most will not come to any serious harm. I think that if battery changing was causing many serious accidents there would be a public reaction to all the deaths and injuries. Similar to the campaign that got the detectors installed in the first place! :) BillK From pharos at gmail.com Sat Dec 20 09:53:45 2014 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2014 09:53:45 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Aliens are likely to be AI Message-ID: The Dominant Life Form in the Cosmos Is Probably Superintelligent Robots Written by Maddie Stone December 19, 2014 Quotes: The reason for all this has to do, primarily, with timescales. For starters, when it comes to alien intelligence, there's what Schneider calls the "short window observation"--the notion that, by the time any society learns to transmit radio signals, they're probably a hop-skip away from upgrading their own biology. It's a twist on the belief popularized by Ray Kurzweil that humanity's own post-biological future is near at hand. "As soon as a civilization invents radio, they're within fifty years of computers, then, probably, only another fifty to a hundred years from inventing AI," Shostak said. "At that point, soft, squishy brains become an outdated model." -------- Begging a final question: How might superintelligent aliens view us? Will our cosmic cousins see us as nothing more than convenient biofuel, a la the Matrix? Or do they study us quietly from afar, abiding by a Star Trek-esque maxim of non-interference? Schneider doubts either. In fact, she reckons superintelligent aliens couldn't really care less about us. "If they were interested in us, we probably wouldn't be here," said Schneider. "My gut feeling is their goals and incentives are so different from ours, they're not going to want to contact us." -------- "I'd have to agree with Susan on them not being interested in us at all," Shostak said. We're just too simplistic, too irrelevant. "You don't spend a whole lot of time hanging out reading books with your goldfish. On the other hand, you don't really want to kill the goldfish, either." So, if we want to meet our galactic peers, it looks like we'll probably have to keep seeking them out. That may take thousands or millions of years, but in the meanwhile, perhaps we'll upgrade our own intelligence enough to level the playing field. ----------- BillK From protokol2020 at gmail.com Sat Dec 20 11:46:02 2014 From: protokol2020 at gmail.com (Tomaz Kristan) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2014 12:46:02 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Aliens are likely to be AI In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Will our cosmic cousins see us as nothing more than convenient biofuel, a la the Matrix? There is nothing of value as "biofuel". They could see us as a nuclear fuel or sub-nuclear fuel or as a source of matter or something. But NEVER as "biofuel". Matrix movies made a tremendous damage in our thinkings and communications. Wachowsky brothers are one of the biggest sources of confusion in the history. On Sat, Dec 20, 2014 at 10:53 AM, BillK wrote: > The Dominant Life Form in the Cosmos Is Probably Superintelligent Robots > Written by Maddie Stone December 19, 2014 > > < > http://motherboard.vice.com/read/the-dominant-life-form-in-the-cosmos-is-probably-superintelligent-robots > > > > Quotes: > The reason for all this has to do, primarily, with timescales. For > starters, when it comes to alien intelligence, there's what Schneider > calls the "short window observation"--the notion that, by the time any > society learns to transmit radio signals, they're probably a hop-skip > away from upgrading their own biology. It's a twist on the belief > popularized by Ray Kurzweil that humanity's own post-biological future > is near at hand. > > "As soon as a civilization invents radio, they're within fifty years > of computers, then, probably, only another fifty to a hundred years > from inventing AI," Shostak said. "At that point, soft, squishy brains > become an outdated model." > -------- > > Begging a final question: How might superintelligent aliens view us? > Will our cosmic cousins see us as nothing more than convenient > biofuel, a la the Matrix? Or do they study us quietly from afar, > abiding by a Star Trek-esque maxim of non-interference? Schneider > doubts either. In fact, she reckons superintelligent aliens couldn't > really care less about us. > > "If they were interested in us, we probably wouldn't be here," said > Schneider. "My gut feeling is their goals and incentives are so > different from ours, they're not going to want to contact us." > -------- > > "I'd have to agree with Susan on them not being interested in us at > all," Shostak said. We're just too simplistic, too irrelevant. "You > don't spend a whole lot of time hanging out reading books with your > goldfish. On the other hand, you don't really want to kill the > goldfish, either." > > So, if we want to meet our galactic peers, it looks like we'll > probably have to keep seeking them out. That may take thousands or > millions of years, but in the meanwhile, perhaps we'll upgrade our own > intelligence enough to level the playing field. > ----------- > > > BillK > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -- https://protokol2020.wordpress.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Sat Dec 20 13:53:30 2014 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2014 14:53:30 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Aliens are likely to be AI In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I wrote a short review with some quotes from Susan's NASA paper: https://hacked.com/aliens-probably-superintelligent-robots/ On Sat, Dec 20, 2014 at 12:46 PM, Tomaz Kristan wrote: >> Will our cosmic cousins see us as nothing more than convenient > biofuel, a la the Matrix? > > There is nothing of value as "biofuel". They could see us as a nuclear fuel > or sub-nuclear fuel or as a source of matter or something. But NEVER as > "biofuel". > > Matrix movies made a tremendous damage in our thinkings and communications. > Wachowsky brothers are one of the biggest sources of confusion in the > history. > > On Sat, Dec 20, 2014 at 10:53 AM, BillK wrote: >> >> The Dominant Life Form in the Cosmos Is Probably Superintelligent Robots >> Written by Maddie Stone December 19, 2014 >> >> >> >> >> Quotes: >> The reason for all this has to do, primarily, with timescales. For >> starters, when it comes to alien intelligence, there's what Schneider >> calls the "short window observation"--the notion that, by the time any >> society learns to transmit radio signals, they're probably a hop-skip >> away from upgrading their own biology. It's a twist on the belief >> popularized by Ray Kurzweil that humanity's own post-biological future >> is near at hand. >> >> "As soon as a civilization invents radio, they're within fifty years >> of computers, then, probably, only another fifty to a hundred years >> from inventing AI," Shostak said. "At that point, soft, squishy brains >> become an outdated model." >> -------- >> >> Begging a final question: How might superintelligent aliens view us? >> Will our cosmic cousins see us as nothing more than convenient >> biofuel, a la the Matrix? Or do they study us quietly from afar, >> abiding by a Star Trek-esque maxim of non-interference? Schneider >> doubts either. In fact, she reckons superintelligent aliens couldn't >> really care less about us. >> >> "If they were interested in us, we probably wouldn't be here," said >> Schneider. "My gut feeling is their goals and incentives are so >> different from ours, they're not going to want to contact us." >> -------- >> >> "I'd have to agree with Susan on them not being interested in us at >> all," Shostak said. We're just too simplistic, too irrelevant. "You >> don't spend a whole lot of time hanging out reading books with your >> goldfish. On the other hand, you don't really want to kill the >> goldfish, either." >> >> So, if we want to meet our galactic peers, it looks like we'll >> probably have to keep seeking them out. That may take thousands or >> millions of years, but in the meanwhile, perhaps we'll upgrade our own >> intelligence enough to level the playing field. >> ----------- >> >> >> BillK >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > > > > -- > https://protokol2020.wordpress.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Sat Dec 20 20:29:30 2014 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2014 15:29:30 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Skylon heat exchangers In-Reply-To: <000901d01c0d$f7069260$e513b720$@att.net> References: <000901d01c0d$f7069260$e513b720$@att.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 19, 2014 at 11:32 PM, spike wrote: > Here's why I haven't completely lost faith in the whole notion, an > experiment you can do at home. Go get a garden hose and find a spider web. > Check out how much flow you can spray at that web and still it stands. > Every notion I have about flow and strength of materials would tell me > there > is no way that web could hold up to a garden hose, even with a nozzle on > it, > but it does. Now don't take my word for it; go out there and start > spraying. I have no equations that would explain why the heck that > happens. > ### The spider web is a miracle of impact energy dissipation, in part by an ingenious use of surface tension-induced coiling of net strands. I would imagine that by comparison, the brazed tubes in the heat exchanger are very primitive mechanically. Rafa? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Sat Dec 20 21:13:21 2014 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2014 13:13:21 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Skylon heat exchangers In-Reply-To: References: <000901d01c0d$f7069260$e513b720$@att.net> Message-ID: <01f701d01c99$c99c6bb0$5cd54310$@att.net> > On Behalf Of Rafal Smigrodzki Subject: Re: [ExI] Skylon heat exchangers On Fri, Dec 19, 2014 at 11:32 PM, spike wrote: Here's why I haven't completely lost faith in the whole notion, an experiment you can do at home. Go get a garden hose and find a spider web. Check out how much flow you can spray at that web and still it stands. Every notion I have about flow and strength of materials would tell me there is no way that web could hold up to a garden hose, even with a nozzle on it, but it does. Now don't take my word for it; go out there and start spraying. I have no equations that would explain why the heck that happens. ### The spider web is a miracle of impact energy dissipation, in part by an ingenious use of surface tension-induced coiling of net strands. I would imagine that by comparison, the brazed tubes in the heat exchanger are very primitive mechanically. Rafa? Ja, well there is a good example for the engineering students, a lesson that all the old familiar formulas don?t necessarily scale all the way down. Experiment: go to the local university, round up all the really smart engineering students, the ones who have taken fluid flow, strength of materials, all those hard junior and senior mechanical engineering classes, get those who understood it and know all their formulas. Show them a spider web and have them come up with an expression for how fast the water flow would need to be to tear up that web. Let them get a microscope and measure the diameter, let them look up a tensile strength or maybe that could be measured in the lab, let them use any equations they want, all of which are applicable in our world, let them scale right on down to the regime where surface tension, negligible in our world, dominates everything. Let those guys use all their favorite tricks in their mathematical toolbag, everything they thought they knew about impact energy dissipation, drag on objects in hydraulic flow, all the tricky fun stuff, and have them predict what will happen if they spray a spider web with a water hose. If they use only the equations in the book, every one of them will get the wrong answer, and miss it by an order of magnitude. They will go away humble and smarter: equations don?t always scale all the way down. When I did my calcs on a supersonic jet intercooler, I used the smallest tubing I knew all the numbers for: 1/64 inch ID Alnico tubing, great for heat exchangers. But it wasn?t nearly good enough, if all the equations are linear. From Keith?s description, the Brits are using even smaller diameter tubing. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com Sun Dec 21 19:33:40 2014 From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2014 19:33:40 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ExI] Yahoo/Exi-List Issue Message-ID: <1879925140.161580.1419190420155.JavaMail.yahoo@jws10633.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> I have been having a peculiar problem lately posting to the list. Whenever I try to post something to the list, I get an email from the mailer daemon that says: ?>On Fri, Dec 19, 2014 10:50 PM PST extropy-chat-request at lists.extropy.org wrote: >Your membership in the mailing list extropy-chat has been disabled due >to excessive bounces The last bounce received from you was dated >20-Dec-2014. You will not get any more messages from this list until >you re-enable your membership. You will receive 3 more reminders like >this before your membership in the list is deleted. > >To re-enable your membership, you can simply respond to this message >(leaving the Subject: line intact), or visit the confirmation page at . . .?When I send a confirmation that I am still at this email address, the server seems to lose or forget my post. Furthermore, I still *do* get everybody's posts except my own so it doesn't unsubscribe me. I have checked my Yahoo account settings and my inbox, while huge, uses less than 0.1% of the TB of storage they say that I have available.?Does anybody know the list server?says my email is bouncing when this email address is still active and I have room in my inbox? Suggestions on how to fix it? Thanks,?Stuart LaForge "We speak for Earth. Our obligation to survive is owed not just to ourselves but also to that Cosmos, ancient and vast, from which we spring." - Carl Sagan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anders at aleph.se Sun Dec 21 20:47:41 2014 From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2014 21:47:41 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Yahoo/Exi-List Issue In-Reply-To: <1879925140.161580.1419190420155.JavaMail.yahoo@jws10633.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1855489090-25972@secure.ericade.net> http://www.pcworld.com/article/2141120/yahoo-email-antispoofing-policy-breaks-mailing-lists.html http://www.spamresource.com/2014/04/run-email-discussion-list-heres-how-to.html Anders Sandberg, Future of Humanity Institute Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University The Avantguardian , 21/12/2014 8:50 PM: I have been having a peculiar problem lately posting to the list. Whenever I try to post something to the list, I get an email from the mailer daemon that says: ? >On Fri, Dec 19, 2014 10:50 PM PST extropy-chat-request at lists.extropy.org wrote: >Your membership in the mailing list extropy-chat has been disabled due >to excessive bounces The last bounce received from you was dated >20-Dec-2014. You will not get any more messages from this list until >you re-enable your membership. You will receive 3 more reminders like >this before your membership in the list is deleted. > >To re-enable your membership, you can simply respond to this message >(leaving the Subject: line intact), or visit the confirmation page at . . . ? When I send a confirmation that I am still at this email address, the server seems to lose or forget my post. Furthermore, I still *do* get everybody's posts except my own so it doesn't unsubscribe me. I have checked my Yahoo account settings and my inbox, while huge, uses less than 0.1% of the TB of storage they say that I have available. ? Does anybody know the list server?says my email is bouncing when this email address is still active and I have room in my inbox? Suggestions on how to fix it? Thanks, ? Stuart LaForge "We speak for Earth. Our obligation to survive is owed not just to ourselves but also to that Cosmos, ancient and vast, from which we spring." - Carl Sagan _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Sun Dec 21 21:06:08 2014 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2014 13:06:08 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Yahoo/Exi-List Issue In-Reply-To: <1855489090-25972@secure.ericade.net> References: <1879925140.161580.1419190420155.JavaMail.yahoo@jws10633.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1855489090-25972@secure.ericade.net> Message-ID: <04fc01d01d61$f1e05af0$d5a110d0$@att.net> Me too Avant. I posted to John to see if we can resubscribe about 30 members including Your Humble Servant who were unsubscribed by excessive bounces. I haven?t heard back, so I will go over and resubscribe all the bouncers. spike From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Anders Sandberg Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2014 12:48 PM To: The Avantguardian; ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] Yahoo/Exi-List Issue http://www.pcworld.com/article/2141120/yahoo-email-antispoofing-policy-breaks-mailing-lists.html http://www.spamresource.com/2014/04/run-email-discussion-list-heres-how-to.html Anders Sandberg, Future of Humanity Institute Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University The Avantguardian , 21/12/2014 8:50 PM: I have been having a peculiar problem lately posting to the list. Whenever I try to post something to the list, I get an email from the mailer daemon that says: >On Fri, Dec 19, 2014 10:50 PM PST extropy-chat-request at lists.extropy.org wrote: >Your membership in the mailing list extropy-chat has been disabled due >to excessive bounces The last bounce received from you was dated >20-Dec-2014. You will not get any more messages from this list until >you re-enable your membership. You will receive 3 more reminders like >this before your membership in the list is deleted. > >To re-enable your membership, you can simply respond to this message >(leaving the Subject: line intact), or visit the confirmation page at . . . When I send a confirmation that I am still at this email address, the server seems to lose or forget my post. Furthermore, I still *do* get everybody's posts except my own so it doesn't unsubscribe me. I have checked my Yahoo account settings and my inbox, while huge, uses less than 0.1% of the TB of storage they say that I have available. Does anybody know the list server says my email is bouncing when this email address is still active and I have room in my inbox? Suggestions on how to fix it? Thanks, Stuart LaForge "We speak for Earth. Our obligation to survive is owed not just to ourselves but also to that Cosmos, ancient and vast, from which we spring." - Carl Sagan _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Sun Dec 21 22:27:16 2014 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2014 22:27:16 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Yahoo/Exi-List Issue In-Reply-To: <04fc01d01d61$f1e05af0$d5a110d0$@att.net> References: <1879925140.161580.1419190420155.JavaMail.yahoo@jws10633.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1855489090-25972@secure.ericade.net> <04fc01d01d61$f1e05af0$d5a110d0$@att.net> Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 21, 2014 at 9:06 PM, spike wrote: > Me too Avant. > > I posted to John to see if we can resubscribe about 30 members including > Your Humble Servant who were unsubscribed by excessive bounces. > > I haven't heard back, so I will go over and resubscribe all the bouncers. > > spike > And another insult ---- Gmail is still putting anything posted to Exi from a yahoo mail address into your Gmail spam folder. BillK From spike66 at att.net Sun Dec 21 22:48:11 2014 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2014 14:48:11 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Yahoo/Exi-List Issue In-Reply-To: References: <1879925140.161580.1419190420155.JavaMail.yahoo@jws10633.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1855489090-25972@secure.ericade.net> <04fc01d01d61$f1e05af0$d5a110d0$@att.net> Message-ID: <058f01d01d70$339db2e0$9ad918a0$@att.net> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of BillK Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2014 2:27 PM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] Yahoo/Exi-List Issue On Sun, Dec 21, 2014 at 9:06 PM, spike wrote: > >>... I haven't heard back, so I will go over and resubscribe all the bouncers... spike > OK did it. >...And another insult ---- Gmail is still putting anything posted to Exi from a yahoo mail address into your Gmail spam folder. BillK _______________________________________________ In the last few months, my spam filter has refused to follow orders. When safe senders are identified, it goes right ahead dumping them into the spam folder, and when spam is identified, it goes right ahead delivering to the inbox. I now treat my spam folder and my inbox as two equal inbox folders. Imagine a humanoid robot operating on voice commands. If it began performing like my spam filter is now doing, it would be the makings of a sci-fi horror film. spike From pharos at gmail.com Sun Dec 21 23:55:55 2014 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2014 23:55:55 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Yahoo/Exi-List Issue In-Reply-To: <058f01d01d70$339db2e0$9ad918a0$@att.net> References: <1879925140.161580.1419190420155.JavaMail.yahoo@jws10633.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1855489090-25972@secure.ericade.net> <04fc01d01d61$f1e05af0$d5a110d0$@att.net> <058f01d01d70$339db2e0$9ad918a0$@att.net> Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 21, 2014 at 10:48 PM, spike wrote: > On Sun, Dec 21, 2014 at 9:06 PM, spike wrote: >>>... I haven't heard back, so I will go over and resubscribe all the > bouncers... spike >> > OK did it. After a bit of research, it looks like a deliberate Yahoo mail change made in April this year, to try and stop spam on yahoo mail. Search on - Yahoo breaks mailing lists - for lots of articles. This is a clear explanation The simplest fix appears to be not to use a yahoo email address on any mailing list. BillK From mbb386 at main.nc.us Mon Dec 22 01:20:28 2014 From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2014 20:20:28 -0500 Subject: [ExI] I, Engineer In-Reply-To: <201412192234.sBJMYvNc026092@andromeda.ziaspace.com> References: <201412192234.sBJMYvNc026092@andromeda.ziaspace.com> Message-ID: <4e32d93c048b9915e2e46ffa10cde4e8.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> > > http://blog.unreasonable.com > Thank you, David. I will be reading. I may share with some family. :) Regards, MB From spike66 at att.net Mon Dec 22 03:24:03 2014 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2014 19:24:03 -0800 Subject: [ExI] happy solstice Message-ID: <05f301d01d96$bcdf8710$369e9530$@att.net> OK so I am a couple hours late, but happy solstice one and all. spike From bbenzai at yahoo.com Mon Dec 22 17:03:52 2014 From: bbenzai at yahoo.com (Ben) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2014 17:03:52 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Yahoo/Exi-List Issue Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <54984EF8.60308@yahoo.com> BillK wrote: > After a bit of research, it looks like a deliberate Yahoo mail change > made in April this year, to try and stop spam on yahoo mail. > Search on - Yahoo breaks mailing lists - for lots of articles. > > This is a clear explanation > > > The simplest fix appears to be not to use a yahoo email address on any > mailing list. That is not acceptable. I'm not changing my email provider because of some silly fuck-up like this. If my messages don't reach the list, so be it. Regrettable, but I'm not going to run around to avoid this kind of thing. And thanks, BillK, for both figuring out and explaining this, and also for having the patience to retrieve and redirect messages as and when you think fit. Much appreciated, and I don't take it for granted. You are a star, sir. Ben Zaiboc From pharos at gmail.com Mon Dec 22 17:42:09 2014 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2014 17:42:09 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Yahoo/Exi-List Issue Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <54984EF8.60308@yahoo.com> References: <54984EF8.60308@yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 22, 2014 at 5:03 PM, Ben wrote: > That is not acceptable. I'm not changing my email provider because of some > silly fuck-up like this. If my messages don't reach the list, so be it. > Regrettable, but I'm not going to run around to avoid this kind of thing. > > As I understand it, the Yahoo mail change only affects Yahoo mail sent to mailing lists. (All mailing lists, not just Exi). So you don't need to change your Yahoo mail account for all normal emails. You just need to get another email account to use for all your mailing list memberships. I recommend having several email accounts anyway, that you use for different groups, e.g. business, friends, lists, etc. to help organise email traffic. It also helps if one email account gets locked or hacked, as you have spare accounts ready to use. Cheers, BillK From anders at aleph.se Tue Dec 23 14:53:33 2014 From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2014 15:53:33 +0100 Subject: [ExI] happy solstice In-Reply-To: <05f301d01d96$bcdf8710$369e9530$@att.net> Message-ID: <2007205920-5379@secure.ericade.net> spike??, 22/12/2014 4:42 AM: OK so I am a couple hours late, but happy solstice one and all.? It also coincided nicely with a new moon. Soon we can celebrate perihelion too! Anders Sandberg, Future of Humanity Institute Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Tue Dec 23 15:02:24 2014 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2014 16:02:24 +0100 Subject: [ExI] The Turing Church and Open Source Religion: Ben Goertzel Interviews Giulio Prisco Message-ID: The Turing Church and Open Source Religion: Ben Goertzel Interviews Giulio Prisco http://hplusmagazine.com/2014/12/22/turing-church-open-source-religion-ben-goertzel-interviews-giulio-prisco/ OK the title should work as a summary. Enjoy and let me know what you think. By the way, Merry Christmas and Happy 2015! From danust2012 at gmail.com Wed Dec 24 06:13:20 2014 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2014 22:13:20 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Earth's deep crust could support widespread life Message-ID: http://www.nature.com/news/earth-s-deep-crust-could-support-widespread-life-1.16575 Okay, not as surprising as one might hope, but confirms a bit of what we already thought, no? Regards, Dan See my Kindle books at: http://www.amazon.com/Dan-Ust/e/B00J6HPX8M/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kellycoinguy at gmail.com Wed Dec 24 08:45:48 2014 From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2014 01:45:48 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Earth's deep crust could support widespread life In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Why are they sticking with the idea that life developed at hydrothermal vents THEN spread underground? Wouldn't the opposite direction make even more sense? There is so much more rock down there than space around vents. Also, many of the clay models for abiogenesis would work better down there. I don't know why scientists get stuck on ideas that aren't proven. Or maybe it's just science writers... -Kelly On Tue, Dec 23, 2014 at 11:13 PM, Dan wrote: > > http://www.nature.com/news/earth-s-deep-crust-could-support-widespread-life-1.16575 > > Okay, not as surprising as one might hope, but confirms a bit of what we > already thought, no? > > Regards, > > Dan > See my Kindle books at: > http://www.amazon.com/Dan-Ust/e/B00J6HPX8M/ > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From protokol2020 at gmail.com Wed Dec 24 10:40:14 2014 From: protokol2020 at gmail.com (Tomaz Kristan) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2014 11:40:14 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Earth's deep crust could support widespread life In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > life developed at hydrothermal vents THEN spread underground? Because the life around those vents breaths the oxygen produced by the green plants! Because those fish and crabs, worms even, adapted there AFTER a long line of ancestors away of those vents. Why not rather assume that life evolved in a more life friendly environment and then conquered the deep, the high, the cold and the hot places. Usually on the expense of its complexity? On Wed, Dec 24, 2014 at 9:45 AM, Kelly Anderson wrote: > Why are they sticking with the idea that life developed at hydrothermal > vents THEN spread underground? Wouldn't the opposite direction make even > more sense? There is so much more rock down there than space around vents. > Also, many of the clay models for abiogenesis would work better down there. > I don't know why scientists get stuck on ideas that aren't proven. Or maybe > it's just science writers... > > -Kelly > > On Tue, Dec 23, 2014 at 11:13 PM, Dan wrote: > >> >> http://www.nature.com/news/earth-s-deep-crust-could-support-widespread-life-1.16575 >> >> Okay, not as surprising as one might hope, but confirms a bit of what we >> already thought, no? >> >> Regards, >> >> Dan >> See my Kindle books at: >> http://www.amazon.com/Dan-Ust/e/B00J6HPX8M/ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -- https://protokol2020.wordpress.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From protokol2020 at gmail.com Wed Dec 24 10:54:02 2014 From: protokol2020 at gmail.com (Tomaz Kristan) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2014 11:54:02 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Earth's deep crust could support widespread life In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: We see this conquering of the (difficult) niches AFTER an evolution pressure has been put on some softer creatures. Only after a lot of hospital cleaning has been done, we have a lot of bacteria flourishing there. After a lot of antibiotics used, we have some penicillin resistant germs. After a lot of pesticides used, some poison resistant bugs arrived. Perhaps you can put a scorpion on the Moon, see it crawling for at least some time. Cockroaches along with some resilient plant can perhaps survive Mars conditions for an indefinitely long time. But not without the Earth which nourished them first. First you have to have a nicer environment for life to begin and especially to develop, I am quite sure. On Wed, Dec 24, 2014 at 11:40 AM, Tomaz Kristan wrote: > > life developed at hydrothermal vents THEN spread underground? > > Because the life around those vents breaths the oxygen produced by the > green plants! > > Because those fish and crabs, worms even, adapted there AFTER a long line > of ancestors away of those vents. > > Why not rather assume that life evolved in a more life friendly > environment and then conquered the deep, the high, the cold and the hot > places. Usually on the expense of its complexity? > > > > > > > On Wed, Dec 24, 2014 at 9:45 AM, Kelly Anderson > wrote: > >> Why are they sticking with the idea that life developed at hydrothermal >> vents THEN spread underground? Wouldn't the opposite direction make even >> more sense? There is so much more rock down there than space around vents. >> Also, many of the clay models for abiogenesis would work better down there. >> I don't know why scientists get stuck on ideas that aren't proven. Or maybe >> it's just science writers... >> >> -Kelly >> >> On Tue, Dec 23, 2014 at 11:13 PM, Dan wrote: >> >>> >>> http://www.nature.com/news/earth-s-deep-crust-could-support-widespread-life-1.16575 >>> >>> Okay, not as surprising as one might hope, but confirms a bit of what we >>> already thought, no? >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> Dan >>> See my Kindle books at: >>> http://www.amazon.com/Dan-Ust/e/B00J6HPX8M/ >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> >> > > > -- > https://protokol2020.wordpress.com/ > -- https://protokol2020.wordpress.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Dec 24 17:14:46 2014 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2014 11:14:46 -0600 Subject: [ExI] a good year for government (?) Message-ID: http://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comment/pretty-good-year-government?utm_source=tny&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=dailyemail&mbid=nl_DAILY_122414&CNDID=20203782&spMailingID=7385232&spUserID=MjczNzc0NzI5OTkS1&spJobID=583096077&spReportId=NTgzMDk2MDc3S0 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Wed Dec 24 21:00:24 2014 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2014 13:00:24 -0800 Subject: [ExI] a good year for government (?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Dec 24, 2014 9:16 AM, "William Flynn Wallace" wrote: > http://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comment/pretty-good-year-government?utm_source=tny&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=dailyemail&mbid=nl_DAILY_122414&CNDID=20203782&spMailingID=7385232&spUserID=MjczNzc0NzI5OTkS1&spJobID=583096077&spReportId=NTgzMDk2MDc3S0 Because democracy (representative or otherwise) truly is the worst of all government types, except for all the others (in actual use to govern nations of at least hundreds of thousands). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Wed Dec 24 21:36:04 2014 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2014 21:36:04 +0000 Subject: [ExI] More Advanced Extraterrestrials Message-ID: David Brin and Robin Hanson are having a discussion this month about extraterrestrials and whether SETI should be actively sending signals out to try to spur a contact response. Their discussion is very wide-ranging and worth reading! One point I think they are missing though is exponential evolution. Unless the aliens are at almost the same development level as humans, (which is really unlikely!), then we should expect to be unable to understand what they will be like. Humans already almost have control of their evolution, nano-tech and AI. Once the Singularity arrives, change will be exponential. A thousand years will bring the equivalent of millions of years of change, evolving faster and faster. We have the evidence of the Great Silence. That means that the galaxy is not filled with civilisations at our level, broadcasting soap operas and sports. This could mean either that humans are alone, or that the many alien civs have advanced quickly past the 'broadcast' period and their motivations and type of existence is now beyond our conception. And they really have no interest at all in humanity. BillK From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Dec 24 21:53:24 2014 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2014 15:53:24 -0600 Subject: [ExI] a good year for government (?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hey, c'mon, give old Winston his due: "It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried.? (Churchill) On Wed, Dec 24, 2014 at 3:00 PM, Adrian Tymes wrote: > On Dec 24, 2014 9:16 AM, "William Flynn Wallace" > wrote: > > > http://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comment/pretty-good-year-government?utm_source=tny&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=dailyemail&mbid=nl_DAILY_122414&CNDID=20203782&spMailingID=7385232&spUserID=MjczNzc0NzI5OTkS1&spJobID=583096077&spReportId=NTgzMDk2MDc3S0 > > Because democracy (representative or otherwise) truly is the worst of all > government types, except for all the others (in actual use to govern > nations of at least hundreds of thousands). > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Wed Dec 24 23:52:44 2014 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2014 15:52:44 -0800 Subject: [ExI] More Advanced Extraterrestrials In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 24, 2014 at 1:36 PM, BillK wrote: > Their discussion is very wide-ranging and worth reading! > No, it really isn't, having given it a glance. It's largely speculation far beyond what the data gives any backing for, plus fears that are easily dismissed if one is familiar with false dichotomies, specifically Pascal's Wager. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Dec 25 15:58:09 2014 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2014 09:58:09 -0600 Subject: [ExI] 10 Most Important Science Fiction Books About Superintelligence In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ?A wonderful writer named Kage Baker, who died in 2010 is my new favorite. She wrote the Company series, which features time travel and human enhancement. A story teller par excellence. I have no idea why she is not more well-known. After reading one of her books I bought everything she ever wrote. bill w? > > > http://io9.com/10-most-important-science-fiction-books-about-superinte-1659512795 > > > John : ) > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Thu Dec 25 16:16:21 2014 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2014 08:16:21 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Ballistic capture orbits might be better Message-ID: <0577FCC5-3B2E-4B87-8AC1-E6F2CEA6E481@gmail.com> http://m.phys.org/news/2014-12-ballistic-capture-cheaper-path-mars.html Regards, Dan See my Kindle books at: http://www.amazon.com/Dan-Ust/e/B00J6HPX8M/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Thu Dec 25 16:26:52 2014 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2014 17:26:52 +0100 Subject: [ExI] 10 Most Important Science Fiction Books About Superintelligence In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks William, I didn't know Kage Baker. I will read her works. I am not impressed by Newitz' list on io9. On Thu, Dec 25, 2014 at 4:58 PM, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > > > A wonderful writer named Kage Baker, who died in 2010 is my new favorite. > She wrote the Company series, which features time travel and human > enhancement. A story teller par excellence. I have no idea why she is not > more well-known. After reading one of her books I bought everything she > ever wrote. bill w > >> >> >> >> http://io9.com/10-most-important-science-fiction-books-about-superinte-1659512795 >> >> >> John : ) >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > From pharos at gmail.com Thu Dec 25 16:28:52 2014 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2014 16:28:52 +0000 Subject: [ExI] More Advanced Extraterrestrials In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 24, 2014 at 11:52 PM, Adrian Tymes wrote: > On Wed, Dec 24, 2014 at 1:36 PM, BillK wrote: >> Their discussion is very wide-ranging and worth reading! > > > No, it really isn't, having given it a glance. > > It's largely speculation far beyond what the data gives any backing for, > plus fears that are easily dismissed if one is familiar with false > dichotomies, specifically Pascal's Wager. > ??? What else can there be but speculation? There is no data for extraterrestrials. But they are smart folks, extrapolating from the little that we have. That's why I like discussions like that. They bring up suggestions that might be new to me and make me think. Nobody says you have to agree with any particular speculation, but you may consider some to be more likely than others. BillK From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Dec 25 16:30:00 2014 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2014 10:30:00 -0600 Subject: [ExI] 10 Most Important Science Fiction Books About Superintelligence In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Please let me know what you think of her. Thanks! bill w On Thu, Dec 25, 2014 at 10:26 AM, Giulio Prisco wrote: > Thanks William, I didn't know Kage Baker. I will read her works. > > I am not impressed by Newitz' list on io9. > > On Thu, Dec 25, 2014 at 4:58 PM, William Flynn Wallace > wrote: > > > > > > A wonderful writer named Kage Baker, who died in 2010 is my new favorite. > > She wrote the Company series, which features time travel and human > > enhancement. A story teller par excellence. I have no idea why she is > not > > more well-known. After reading one of her books I bought everything she > > ever wrote. bill w > > > >> > >> > >> > >> > http://io9.com/10-most-important-science-fiction-books-about-superinte-1659512795 > >> > >> > >> John : ) > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> extropy-chat mailing list > >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > >> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rhanson at gmu.edu Wed Dec 24 22:57:03 2014 From: rhanson at gmu.edu (Robin D Hanson) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2014 22:57:03 +0000 Subject: [ExI] More Advanced Extraterrestrials In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Dec 24, 2014, at 4:36 PM, BillK wrote: > David Brin and Robin Hanson are having a discussion this month ... > One point I think they are missing though is exponential evolution. > Unless the aliens are at almost the same development level as humans, > (which is really unlikely!), then we should expect to be unable to > understand what they will be like. Humans already almost have control > of their evolution, nano-tech and AI. Once the Singularity arrives, > change will be exponential. A thousand years will bring the equivalent > of millions of years of change, evolving faster and faster. I agree they would be far more advanced from us; that was key to my latest comment there. But why should being far more advanced mean that we should "be unable to understand what they will be like"? We don't understand everything, but we do understand some things, so why can't we make use of what we do understand? Robin Hanson http://hanson.gmu.edu Res. Assoc., Future of Humanity Inst., Oxford Univ. Assoc. Professor, George Mason University Chief Scientist, Consensus Point MSN 1D3, Carow Hall, Fairfax VA 22030 703-993-2326 FAX: 703-993-2323 From danust2012 at gmail.com Thu Dec 25 16:57:43 2014 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2014 08:57:43 -0800 Subject: [ExI] 10 Most Important Science Fiction Books About Superintelligence In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <601C8B16-B88A-4A68-A42F-F67C72FBA02B@gmail.com> Ya, where's _Odd John_ by Olaf Stapeldon? Regards, Dan See my Kindle books at: http://www.amazon.com/Dan-Ust/e/B00J6HPX8M/ > On Dec 25, 2014, at 8:26 AM, Giulio Prisco wrote: > > Thanks William, I didn't know Kage Baker. I will read her works. > > I am not impressed by Newitz' list on io9. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Thu Dec 25 17:47:53 2014 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2014 17:47:53 +0000 Subject: [ExI] More Advanced Extraterrestrials In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 24, 2014 at 10:57 PM, Robin D Hanson wrote: > I agree they would be far more advanced from us; that was key to my > latest comment there. But why should being far more advanced mean > that we should "be unable to understand what they will be like"? We > don't understand everything, but we do understand some things, so why > can't we make use of what we do understand? > I assume that they will be post-Singularity entities. They won't be cowboys with spaceships and laser guns like Star Trek. Their advanced tech will be like magic to us. I don't believe we will be able to understand post-Singularity aliens. We may not even be able to see them. As we don't see massive engineering redesigning star systems, they may go the nano-tech route, or disappear near black holes. To quote Seth Shostak of SETI "You don't spend a whole lot of time hanging out reading books with your goldfish. On the other hand, you don't really want to kill the goldfish, either." BillK From atymes at gmail.com Thu Dec 25 18:24:48 2014 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2014 10:24:48 -0800 Subject: [ExI] More Advanced Extraterrestrials In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 25, 2014 at 8:28 AM, BillK wrote: > ??? What else can there be but speculation? There is no data for > extraterrestrials. > There is data that suggests they aren't out there. Not "some sentient thing is actively destroying everyone who broadcasts" (because then we'd see its own activity). But just, they aren't - that we are alone, at least so far as anything we can realistically interact with is concerned. The "extremely low chances" of this are based on assumptions, and conflicts with the data that there is no one out there that we can detect. That is what the data suggests so far. Granted, it's impossible to completely prove a negative such as this, but if we were going to be able to detect someone using our current methods, odds are we would have done so by now. Better to focus our efforts on acquiring new methods - which, among other things, requires getting a significant population off of Earth. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rhanson at gmu.edu Thu Dec 25 17:55:18 2014 From: rhanson at gmu.edu (Robin D Hanson) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2014 17:55:18 +0000 Subject: [ExI] More Advanced Extraterrestrials In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <076FB6CE-B2E8-42B7-BA8F-6F813BA5337F@gmu.edu> On Dec 25, 2014, at 12:47 PM, BillK wrote: >> I agree they would be far more advanced from us; that was key to my >> latest comment there. But why should being far more advanced mean >> that we should "be unable to understand what they will be like"? We >> don't understand everything, but we do understand some things, so why >> can't we make use of what we do understand? > > I assume that they will be post-Singularity entities. They won't be > cowboys with spaceships and laser guns like Star Trek. Their advanced > tech will be like magic to us. > > I don't believe we will be able to understand post-Singularity aliens. > We may not even be able to see them. As we don't see massive > engineering redesigning star systems, they may go the nano-tech route, > or disappear near black holes. > > To quote Seth Shostak of SETI "You don't spend a whole lot of time > hanging out reading books with your > goldfish. On the other hand, you don't really want to kill the > goldfish, either." Goldfish don't understand much of anything, so it is hard to talk sensibly about why they don't understand things. We humans, in contrast, are general minds, probably capable of understanding many bits of what advanced aliens might explain to us, if we took the time. So why shouldn't we be able to figure out some of those things ourselves, without them explaining them to us? Robin Hanson http://hanson.gmu.edu Res. Assoc., Future of Humanity Inst., Oxford Univ. Assoc. Professor, George Mason University Chief Scientist, Consensus Point MSN 1D3, Carow Hall, Fairfax VA 22030 703-993-2326 FAX: 703-993-2323 From anders at aleph.se Thu Dec 25 20:08:02 2014 From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2014 21:08:02 +0100 Subject: [ExI] More Advanced Extraterrestrials In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <2196117877-19532@secure.ericade.net> BillK??, 25/12/2014 6:52 PM: On Wed, Dec 24, 2014 at 10:57 PM, Robin D Hanson ?wrote:? > I agree they would be far more advanced from us; that was key to my? > latest comment there. But why should being far more advanced mean? > that we should "be unable to understand what they will be like"? We? > don't understand everything, but we do understand some things, so why? > can't we make use of what we do understand?? >? I assume that they will be post-Singularity entities. They won't be? cowboys with spaceships and laser guns like Star Trek. Their advanced? tech will be like magic to us.? I don't believe we will be able to understand post-Singularity aliens.? Quoting from a paper I am writing: "The aims of posthumans do not have to be totally alien: humans and chimpanzees do share desires for food, sex, companionship and social status. Posthumans are likely to inherit many commonalities, especially since humans becoming posthuman would aim towards states that appear valuable from a human perspective and hence fulfil human desires to some extent. However, humans pursue the common desires in ways incomprehensible to chimpanzees (such as agriculture, professional work paid in money, social media, and formal politics). Furthermore, these methods create enormous domains of chimp-incomprehensible activity (such as ironworking, accounting, software, and law). Beyond these activities that have a shared ground are human activities like art, sport, religion, philosophy, and science where the link to chimp activities is even more tenuous, yet humans value them deeply.? Posthumans may similarly have vast domains they value deeply -- to the extent that they may forego things humans regard as paramount in order to achieve them. These domains also would require supporting technologies and praxis that would be opaque to us. Furthermore, they may have changed core aspects of cognition, lifecycles or personal identity in ways that make their aims even more obscure. Nevertheless, they are still bound by the laws of physics: a posthuman civilization will require dissipative energy flows to maintain its structure against entropy, information flows and processing will be bound by lightspeed and quantum mechanical limitations, and so on." Now, applying this to post-aliens too: we should expect them to have certain traits due to their evolutionary past, and then amplify their ability to achieve them. This leads to secondary interests, most likely along general purpose lines like the convergent instrumental goals we usually worry about in AGI - a post-alien is in many ways just like an AI, something intelligent with possibly weird goals. ? So this picture suggests they will not necessarily be unknowable. However, if we use humanity as a guide a lot of the obvious large-scale activities (cities. agriculture, pit mines, border fences, golf courses) are tangentially or indirectly related to the basic goals, and it seems that historically we are moving further away from the obvious (just a few percent of farmers now, and soon just as few industrial workers - the rest are doing mostly nonobvious services). So my guess is that we would recognize some of the big aims of the post-aliens, but not their means and quite likely miss the big point of their activities.? However, opaqueness does not mean invisibility (this is where I disagree with Bradbury and Smart, who have argued for a strong convergence towards quietness or invisibility). Anders Sandberg, Future of Humanity Institute Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Thu Dec 25 20:45:56 2014 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2014 20:45:56 +0000 Subject: [ExI] More Advanced Extraterrestrials In-Reply-To: <2196117877-19532@secure.ericade.net> References: <2196117877-19532@secure.ericade.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 25, 2014 at 8:08 PM, Anders Sandberg wrote: > > BillK wrote: 25/12/2014 6:52 PM: > I assume that they will be post-Singularity entities. They won't be > cowboys with spaceships and laser guns like Star Trek. Their advanced > tech will be like magic to us. > I don't believe we will be able to understand post-Singularity aliens. > > > Quoting from a paper I am writing: > > Now, applying this to post-aliens too: we should expect them to have certain > traits due to their evolutionary past, and then amplify their ability to > achieve them. This leads to secondary interests, most likely along general > purpose lines like the convergent instrumental goals we usually worry about > in AGI - a post-alien is in many ways just like an AI, something intelligent > with possibly weird goals. > > So this picture suggests they will not necessarily be unknowable. However, > if we use humanity as a guide a lot of the obvious large-scale activities > (cities. agriculture, pit mines, border fences, golf courses) are > tangentially or indirectly related to the basic goals, and it seems that > historically we are moving further away from the obvious (just a few percent > of farmers now, and soon just as few industrial workers - the rest are doing > mostly nonobvious services). So my guess is that we would recognize some of > the big aims of the post-aliens, but not their means and quite likely miss > the big point of their activities. > > However, opaqueness does not mean invisibility (this is where I disagree > with Bradbury and Smart, who have argued for a strong convergence towards > quietness or invisibility). > Bother! Your response forced a rewrite of my draft reply. :) I agree with your comments as a step in the right direction. But I don't think it goes far enough. It is too easy for us to underestimate the Singularity and exponential change. It won't be like now with a few more clever gadgets. For the first few hours or days, perhaps. But so much could change in so many different ways and so quickly, that a bit of mind-boggling is in order. For example, if they go nano, change their substrate and speed up processing by a factor of millions, then from their POV that effectively freezes the outside world (including humans). Communication becomes impossible with pre-Sing entities. We don't see mega structures like Dyson spheres. In fact everything we see appears to be natural and unaltered. So, assuming post-Sing civs exist, then they don't do large scale engineering. Nano scale seems much more likely. I wouldn't even assume to know what they might use as an energy source. Perhaps the space-time froth or quantum vacuum fluctuations might be sufficient. Or hovering on the edge of black holes, who knows? Don't assume our physics is the final word. There are still plenty of unsolved problems. There has been plenty of speculation about what a post-Singular civilisation might be like, but a fundamental point is that everything changes. It is a wall that we cannot see beyond. Let's hope we survive it! :) BillK From spike66 at att.net Thu Dec 25 21:02:42 2014 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2014 13:02:42 -0800 Subject: [ExI] xmas lyrics Message-ID: <00ac01d02086$20519b70$60f4d250$@att.net> Those of us in the English-speaking world (and probably everywhere outside the Middle East) are mind-raped this time of year by constant bombardment with Christmas music. It is hard to escape. You know the words; you can't help knowing them, you can't forget them even if you try. Every year I overthink the whole thing, hearing stuff in those lyrics. My son took after me. When he was four and his two cousins were five and seven, they were convinced one of the Christmas songs had a part about a zombie eating people's faces. In the middle of a quiet family discussion the three of them suddenly shrieked in terror and fled from the room. We learned the bothersome part was that bit about Jack Frost nipping at your nose. The three California kids knew nothing of Jack Frost, but didn't want anyone nipping at noses. Others that I recall: that little drummer boy playing while ".the ox and lamb kept time." The questions that come to mind is what exactly were the beasts doing to "keep time"? And whatever it was (swaying to the beat?) that in itself would be so freaky as to have me fleeing in terror. Today I noticed yet another one in a song about a snowman who came to life, played with the local kids and then went off downtown. Things were apparently going well enough until he encountered a cop, and only paused a moment when he heard him holler stop. Well OK then, but that is an absurdity in itself, for cops don't holler stop. Rather they holler FREEZE motherfucker! Assume the position, before I blow your ass off! I will grant the absurdity of ordering a snowman to freeze, or referring to anatomical features which are almost surely absent. It seems every winter solstice season I stumble upon yet another logical flaw in those lyrics I am forced to know. Perhaps after today I will be spared for another year. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ilsa.bartlett at gmail.com Thu Dec 25 21:20:03 2014 From: ilsa.bartlett at gmail.com (ilsa) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2014 13:20:03 -0800 Subject: [ExI] xmas lyrics In-Reply-To: <00ac01d02086$20519b70$60f4d250$@att.net> References: <00ac01d02086$20519b70$60f4d250$@att.net> Message-ID: Happy Group Holiday Season, The Abraham children and other communities. Sun RA: This is the Music Sound Of the Momentum: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tT3ZYVb0wFY I love listening to all the threads through this past year and looking forward to the year ahead. Pure Fun and Sincerity with Respect and Gratitude, Smile, ilsa Ilsa Bartlett Institute for Rewiring the System http://ilsabartlett.wordpress.com http://www.google.com/profiles/ilsa.bartlett www.hotlux.com/angel "Don't ever get so big or important that you can not hear and listen to every other person." -John Coltrane On Thu, Dec 25, 2014 at 1:02 PM, spike wrote: > > > Those of us in the English-speaking world (and probably everywhere outside > the Middle East) are mind-raped this time of year by constant bombardment > with Christmas music. It is hard to escape. You know the words; you can?t > help knowing them, you can?t forget them even if you try. Every year I > overthink the whole thing, hearing stuff in those lyrics. My son took > after me. When he was four and his two cousins were five and seven, they > were convinced one of the Christmas songs had a part about a zombie eating > people?s faces. In the middle of a quiet family discussion the three of > them suddenly shrieked in terror and fled from the room. We learned the > bothersome part was that bit about Jack Frost nipping at your nose. The > three California kids knew nothing of Jack Frost, but didn?t want anyone > nipping at noses. > > > > Others that I recall: that little drummer boy playing while ??the ox and > lamb kept time?? The questions that come to mind is what exactly were the > beasts doing to ?keep time?? And whatever it was (swaying to the beat?) > that in itself would be so freaky as to have me fleeing in terror. > > > > Today I noticed yet another one in a song about a snowman who came to > life, played with the local kids and then went off downtown. Things were > apparently going well enough until he encountered a cop, and only paused a > moment when he heard him holler stop. Well OK then, but that is an > absurdity in itself, for cops don?t holler stop. Rather they holler FREEZE > motherfucker! Assume the position, before I blow your ass off! > > > > I will grant the absurdity of ordering a snowman to freeze, or referring > to anatomical features which are almost surely absent. > > > > It seems every winter solstice season I stumble upon yet another logical > flaw in those lyrics I am forced to know. Perhaps after today I will be > spared for another year. > > > > spike > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Fri Dec 26 06:32:03 2014 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2014 07:32:03 +0100 Subject: [ExI] 10 Most Important Science Fiction Books About Superintelligence In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I started reading the first book in The Company series. It is very cool so far, I plan to continue reading the whole series. I didn't think there was a major contemporary science fiction writer that I had not even heard of, thanks for introducing me to Kage Baker's works. On Thu, Dec 25, 2014 at 5:30 PM, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > Please let me know what you think of her. > > Thanks! > > bill w > > On Thu, Dec 25, 2014 at 10:26 AM, Giulio Prisco wrote: >> >> Thanks William, I didn't know Kage Baker. I will read her works. >> >> I am not impressed by Newitz' list on io9. >> >> On Thu, Dec 25, 2014 at 4:58 PM, William Flynn Wallace >> wrote: >> > >> > >> > A wonderful writer named Kage Baker, who died in 2010 is my new >> > favorite. >> > She wrote the Company series, which features time travel and human >> > enhancement. A story teller par excellence. I have no idea why she is >> > not >> > more well-known. After reading one of her books I bought everything she >> > ever wrote. bill w >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> http://io9.com/10-most-important-science-fiction-books-about-superinte-1659512795 >> >> >> >> >> >> John : ) >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> extropy-chat mailing list >> >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> >> >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > extropy-chat mailing list >> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Dec 26 14:17:02 2014 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2014 08:17:02 -0600 Subject: [ExI] 10 Most Important Science Fiction Books About Superintelligence In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks Giulio. Even going to her page on Wikipedia it is hard to tell just what order to read them in. For the novels, it's fine. But some of the books are short stories, some of which relate to the Company, and some don't. Some of the Company short stories are really not needed to keep up with the plots in the novels, but a few are. A few of the books are not Company novels. Maybe read about them on Amazon for that info. They are great stories, but for some, there is not enough action, especially fights and wars, etc. It suited me just fine. I don't know of another writer like her. Enjoy. bill w On Fri, Dec 26, 2014 at 12:32 AM, Giulio Prisco wrote: > I started reading the first book in The Company series. It is very > cool so far, I plan to continue reading the whole series. I didn't > think there was a major contemporary science fiction writer that I had > not even heard of, thanks for introducing me to Kage Baker's works. > > On Thu, Dec 25, 2014 at 5:30 PM, William Flynn Wallace > wrote: > > Please let me know what you think of her. > > > > Thanks! > > > > bill w > > > > On Thu, Dec 25, 2014 at 10:26 AM, Giulio Prisco > wrote: > >> > >> Thanks William, I didn't know Kage Baker. I will read her works. > >> > >> I am not impressed by Newitz' list on io9. > >> > >> On Thu, Dec 25, 2014 at 4:58 PM, William Flynn Wallace > >> wrote: > >> > > >> > > >> > A wonderful writer named Kage Baker, who died in 2010 is my new > >> > favorite. > >> > She wrote the Company series, which features time travel and human > >> > enhancement. A story teller par excellence. I have no idea why she > is > >> > not > >> > more well-known. After reading one of her books I bought everything > she > >> > ever wrote. bill w > >> > > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > http://io9.com/10-most-important-science-fiction-books-about-superinte-1659512795 > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> John : ) > >> >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ > >> >> extropy-chat mailing list > >> >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > >> >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > >> >> > >> > > >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > extropy-chat mailing list > >> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > >> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > >> > > >> _______________________________________________ > >> extropy-chat mailing list > >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Sun Dec 28 04:52:42 2014 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2014 23:52:42 -0500 Subject: [ExI] More Advanced Extraterrestrials In-Reply-To: <076FB6CE-B2E8-42B7-BA8F-6F813BA5337F@gmu.edu> References: <076FB6CE-B2E8-42B7-BA8F-6F813BA5337F@gmu.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 25, 2014 at 12:55 PM, Robin D Hanson wrote: > On Dec 25, 2014, at 12:47 PM, BillK wrote: > > > > To quote Seth Shostak of SETI "You don't spend a whole lot of time > > hanging out reading books with your > > goldfish. On the other hand, you don't really want to kill the > > goldfish, either." > > Goldfish don't understand much of anything, so it is hard to talk sensibly > about why they don't understand things. We humans, in contrast, are general > minds, probably capable of understanding many bits of what advanced aliens > might explain to us, if we took the time. So why shouldn't we be able to > figure > out some of those things ourselves, without them explaining them to us? ### This brought me to think about the potential incommensurability of cognitive processes running on distinctly different computational architectures. The architecture of our brainstem is very different from our cortex - the brainstem has hundreds of hardwired nuclei doing complex calculations calibrated genetically, while the cortex has millions of modules dynamically rewiring themselves in response to inputs. We, the cognitive processes that produce language and exchange descriptions of experience (i.e. consciousness) don't really understand our brainstems, which are not that much different from a goldfish, BTW. It's a black box, only 2 inches away from where we are, but inscrutable, except through the roundabout way of neuroscience, and even then vaguely pictured. Understanding in the opposite direction is in principle even more limited. You can't explain what an Anglican is to your brainstem, no matter how you try. There are other cognitive processes in existence - for example a von Neumann computer performing translation in strikingly human voice in real time, and yet not conscious (most likely). We don't really understand it in the same way we understand the ideas analyzed by our cortical sheet, even though the program itself is still written by humans and largely tractable. Advanced AIs may have radically different cognitive architectures, like crosses between a brainstem, a cortex, a von Neumann machine and other things, not yet invented. They may be also much bigger than us, with not just different but larger thoughts, weaving many more parallel and interdependent strands of inference than what could fit in out minds, like some hellish sorites. Sure, an idealized Turing machine is a general computer that can emulate anything, a Watson could run on an 8080 with a lot of memory but the speed penalty involved means that realistically, you can't really use a single 8080 to power thought. We may have some general reasoning capacity but the task of really understanding a truly superhuman mind running on a million tons of computronium may be vastly beyond our ability to comprehend, both on a qualitative level (due to different architecture) and quantitative level (due to irreducible complexity of their thoughts). Rafa? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Tue Dec 30 02:24:54 2014 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2014 18:24:54 -0800 Subject: [ExI] music history hipsters please Message-ID: <002101d023d7$cd4bc4a0$67e34de0$@att.net> Before I go on a long internet search, first let me check if any of my friends are music history experts. The class of counterculture music genres have had various names. Roughly in reverse chronological order: hip hop, rap, acid rock, back in the 50s Elvis and rock and roll, jazz, ragtime in the 20s and 30s, before that there were dance bands and such (don't know what it is called.) Back in the 1860s to 1890s, what was the counterpart to these genres? We can imagine a saloon with a honky tonk piano and a guy playing dance music, but I don't know if that sort of disreputable music had a name. Anyone know? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Tue Dec 30 18:12:11 2014 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2014 10:12:11 -0800 Subject: [ExI] sony hack Message-ID: <029d01d0245c$23092f20$691b8d60$@att.net> Internet security hipsters, I assume you have seen this by now: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/12/30/fbi-briefed-on-theory-sony-hack-w as-inside-job-not-from-n-korea/ So now there are plenty of doubts that the Norks did this, and plenty of suspicion that a Sony insider dunnit. Any guesses or insights please? My vague intuition sides with the insider theory, but I don't know enough about this kind of thing to know or justify my intuition. In any big company there are those who become disgruntled and would take a big chance to harm their own employer. It is easy enough to see a motive for both an angry insider and the Norks, but the insider has more means to pull it off. Does anyone have Harvey Newstrom's email @? He is way hip on this kind of thing. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue Dec 30 20:22:11 2014 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2014 15:22:11 -0500 Subject: [ExI] More Advanced Extraterrestrials In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 24, 2014 at 5:57 PM, Robin D Hanson wrote: > I agree they would be far more advanced from us > If ET exists he probably already knows about us, and even he doesn't why hide from him, what do we have that he would covet? John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Wed Dec 31 16:35:21 2014 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2014 11:35:21 -0500 Subject: [ExI] A paranormal prediction for the next year Message-ID: One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again. ================ One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again. ================ One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again. ================ One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again. ================ One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again. ================ One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again. ================ One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again. ================ One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again. ================ One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again. ================ One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again. ================ Happy New Year all. I predict that a paper reporting positive psi results will NOT appear in Nature or Science in the next year. This may seem an outrageous prediction, after all psi is hardly a rare phenomena, millions of people with no training have managed to observe it, or claim they have. And I am sure the good people at Nature and Science would want to say something about this very important and obvious part of our natural world if they could, but I predict they will be unable to find anything interesting to say about it. You might think my prediction is crazy, like saying a waitress with an eight's grade education in Duluth Minnesota can regularly observe the Higgs boson with no difficulty but the highly trained Physicists at CERN in Switzerland cannot. Nevertheless I am confident my prediction is true because my ghostly spirit guide Mohammad Duntoldme spoke to me about it in a dream. PS: I am also confident I can make this very same prediction one year from today. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: