From spike66 at att.net  Sun Mar  2 21:22:47 2014
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2014 13:22:47 -0800
Subject: [ExI] guitar playing robot
Message-ID: <021e01cf365d$9021daf0$b06590d0$@att.net>

 

Oh man, if this doesn't meet the strictest definition of wicked cool, I just
haven't yet seen it:

 

 

.The song is called "Sad Robot Goes Funny."

 
<http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/squarepusher-and-robot-band-collabo
rates-in-new-video-music-of-the-future-223325301.html> Squarepusher says the
piece's two halves mirror the robots' grief that their fans view them as
mere "entertainment machines." Then, left alone at the end of the day, "They
think back to being young robots, before they were employed in the sphere of
public entertainment, and remember the silly antics they used to get up to."

 

http://singularityhub.com/2014/03/01/squarepusher-explores-emotional-machine
-music-with-78-fingered-robot-guitarist/

 

We tend to think it takes a human touch to make emotionally charged music,
but Squarepusher wants to play with and maybe even disprove that assumption.
And there's no doubt, "Sad Robot Goes Funny" is interesting and even
enjoyable. The piece morphs from something like chamber music into Miles
Davis and Steve Vai's android love child.

 

 

 

 

Oooh so cool.  It sure as hell sounds to me like this piece is being played
with feeling, and it is CLEAN!  I can easily imagine playing it on the CD
player in Mister Lincoln.

 

spike

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From nuala.t at gmail.com  Sun Mar  2 22:38:59 2014
From: nuala.t at gmail.com (Nuala Thomson)
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2014 09:38:59 +1100
Subject: [ExI] guitar playing robot
In-Reply-To: <021e01cf365d$9021daf0$b06590d0$@att.net>
References: <021e01cf365d$9021daf0$b06590d0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <36E8C64B-D6D3-44A0-8432-B1BE11E17B9D@gmail.com>

I will definitely agree it meets wicked cool!
I'd love to see Jean Boudin join in on that song.
Thanks for sharing!



Nuala Thomson

On 03/03/2014, at 8:22, "spike" <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

>  
> Oh man, if this doesn?t meet the strictest definition of wicked cool, I just haven?t yet seen it:
>  
>  
> ?The song is called ?Sad Robot Goes Funny.?
> 
> Squarepusher says the piece?s two halves mirror the robots? grief that their fans view them as mere ?entertainment machines.? Then, left alone at the end of the day, ?They think back to being young robots, before they were employed in the sphere of public entertainment, and remember the silly antics they used to get up to.?
>  
> http://singularityhub.com/2014/03/01/squarepusher-explores-emotional-machine-music-with-78-fingered-robot-guitarist/
>  
> We tend to think it takes a human touch to make emotionally charged music, but Squarepusher wants to play with and maybe even disprove that assumption. And there?s no doubt, ?Sad Robot Goes Funny? is interesting and even enjoyable. The piece morphs from something like chamber music into Miles Davis and Steve Vai?s android love child?
>  
>  
>  
>  
> Oooh so cool.  It sure as hell sounds to me like this piece is being played with feeling, and it is CLEAN!  I can easily imagine playing it on the CD player in Mister Lincoln.
>  
> spike
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
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From pharos at gmail.com  Sun Mar  2 22:57:26 2014
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2014 22:57:26 +0000
Subject: [ExI] guitar playing robot
In-Reply-To: <021e01cf365d$9021daf0$b06590d0$@att.net>
References: <021e01cf365d$9021daf0$b06590d0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAL_armjJg4QqgGpFQLY7uAJPQK7e-5d-iHCeVajAUZ6c=qYOKw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Mar 2, 2014 at 9:22 PM, spike  wrote:
<snip>
> We tend to think it takes a human touch to make emotionally charged music,
> but Squarepusher wants to play with and maybe even disprove that assumption.
> And there's no doubt, "Sad Robot Goes Funny" is interesting and even
> enjoyable. The piece morphs from something like chamber music into Miles
> Davis and Steve Vai's android love child...
>
> Oooh so cool.  It sure as hell sounds to me like this piece is being played
> with feeling, and it is CLEAN!  I can easily imagine playing it on the CD
> player in Mister Lincoln.
>
>

I remember going to a Kraftwerk concert. The normal rock concert has a
group leaping about the stage, with explosions and flashing lights.
Good fun.

But Kraftwerk were so different.......
Their stage was almost dark, with just four shadowy figures seated at
electronic machines.
Then the music started, building till the hall was trembling and your
chest was thumping.
Quite an experience.


BillK


From spike66 at att.net  Sun Mar  2 23:28:26 2014
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2014 15:28:26 -0800
Subject: [ExI] guitar playing robot
In-Reply-To: <36E8C64B-D6D3-44A0-8432-B1BE11E17B9D@gmail.com>
References: <021e01cf365d$9021daf0$b06590d0$@att.net>
 <36E8C64B-D6D3-44A0-8432-B1BE11E17B9D@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <025601cf366f$1de32950$59a97bf0$@att.net>

 

 

From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Nuala Thomson
Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2014 2:39 PM
To: ExI chat list
Subject: Re: [ExI] guitar playing robot

 

http://singularityhub.com/2014/03/01/squarepusher-explores-emotional-machine-music-with-78-fingered-robot-guitarist/

 

 

I will definitely agree it meets wicked cool!

I'd love to see Jean Boudin join in on that song.

Thanks for sharing!


Nuala Thomson

 

 

 

JA!  Wouldn?t that be cool!  We get some of these guys who are guitar machines, then see if we can get the actual machine to take the signals from the carbon unit by rigging her guitar with electric pickups.  Then the silicon unit could hear what the carbon unit is playing and try to match the style and key signature, as we used to do in jam sessions.  It would fun to see if we could write a program which would pick up on carbon?s style, perhaps learn her licks and such.  Oh it would be crazy fun!  Have a jam sesh with a computer while the software learns.  The carbon unit would be getting better too, from practicing.  So in a sense a computer and a human would be simultaneously programming each other.

 

Is this a great time to be living or what?  {8^D

 

spike





 

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From pharos at gmail.com  Mon Mar  3 13:45:45 2014
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2014 13:45:45 +0000
Subject: [ExI] guitar playing robot
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armjJg4QqgGpFQLY7uAJPQK7e-5d-iHCeVajAUZ6c=qYOKw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <021e01cf365d$9021daf0$b06590d0$@att.net>
 <CAL_armjJg4QqgGpFQLY7uAJPQK7e-5d-iHCeVajAUZ6c=qYOKw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armhzsj5zOFSmWTwF7Vh3AzyAGzhNkNdUqVzukr7AdWGhrA@mail.gmail.com>

Sorry, my memory failed me. It was a different German electronic
synthesizer group concert I attended.
The group was Tangerine Dream. (Though Kraftwerk are good as well).

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tangerine_Dream>

Here is a sample half-hour video concert extract:
Tangerine Dream at Coventry Cathedral.

<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bGByDwiiECw>

BillK


On Sun, Mar 2, 2014 at 10:57 PM, BillK  wrote:
> But Kraftwerk were so different.......
> Their stage was almost dark, with just four shadowy figures seated at
> electronic machines.
> Then the music started, building till the hall was trembling and your
> chest was thumping.
> Quite an experience.
>
>


From spike66 at att.net  Mon Mar  3 15:55:42 2014
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2014 07:55:42 -0800
Subject: [ExI] guitar playing robot
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armhzsj5zOFSmWTwF7Vh3AzyAGzhNkNdUqVzukr7AdWGhrA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <021e01cf365d$9021daf0$b06590d0$@att.net>
 <CAL_armjJg4QqgGpFQLY7uAJPQK7e-5d-iHCeVajAUZ6c=qYOKw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armhzsj5zOFSmWTwF7Vh3AzyAGzhNkNdUqVzukr7AdWGhrA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <03b901cf36f9$09265f20$1b731d60$@att.net>

>... On Behalf Of BillK
Subject: Re: [ExI] guitar playing robot

>...Sorry, my memory failed me. It was a different German electronic
synthesizer group concert I attended... BillK

I forgive thee, my son.  Go and forget no more.

Please, a question for musicians, specifically not voice but some kind of
fingers instrument.  We spent years mastering how to play, working at it
every day.  In a typical high school, you may end up with about 50 to 100
horn players, perhaps 10-ish guitar players, but typically of that size
group only one or two get good enough to express their feelings on a musical
instrument because it takes years of focused effort.

What if all you need to do is write the music, then a robot can play it?  If
a musician never puts in the years on a horn or a guitar, can she ever write
cool music?  If we figure out how to let the robot hear us and carry the
musical ideas, but play them cleanly, can we go straight to the expression
stage without the practice-our-brains-out-until-we-don't-suck stage?

It isn't clear to me there is a good shortcut, but I am listening for
counter-argument.

spike



From atymes at gmail.com  Mon Mar  3 16:29:14 2014
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2014 08:29:14 -0800
Subject: [ExI] guitar playing robot
In-Reply-To: <03b901cf36f9$09265f20$1b731d60$@att.net>
References: <021e01cf365d$9021daf0$b06590d0$@att.net>
 <CAL_armjJg4QqgGpFQLY7uAJPQK7e-5d-iHCeVajAUZ6c=qYOKw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armhzsj5zOFSmWTwF7Vh3AzyAGzhNkNdUqVzukr7AdWGhrA@mail.gmail.com>
 <03b901cf36f9$09265f20$1b731d60$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNQBQnpG_QtT9B2hUs4erMvAYcHj+0yBwLx9ArdJn4t-zw@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Mar 3, 2014 at 7:55 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

> What if all you need to do is write the music, then a robot can play it?
>

Let me twist that for you.  Google "autocomposer".  I have received quite a
few compliments over the years on music I've created using such, which IIRC
have never been played on anything that is not a computer (including
smartphones, et cetera).
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From spike66 at att.net  Mon Mar  3 17:15:26 2014
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2014 09:15:26 -0800
Subject: [ExI] putin and the three pirates problem
Message-ID: <000601cf3704$2c3659b0$84a30d10$@att.net>


A couple weeks ago we were talking about three armed pirates and a bag of
gold.  The deeper I dig, the more crazy paradoxes I find in that.

The current situation in Ukraine reminds me of that scenario.  Europe
(including Ukraine) is one participant, (Obama plus the rest of the world)
is one participant, Putin is the third, and Crimea is the bag of gold.
Being the dealer, Putin can take as much as he wants now, knowing that
neither the US nor Europe will fire.

If the situation is vaguely analogous, then I make the following prediction
based on what little I know about a Nash equilibrium: Putin will effectively
annex Crimea and a broad defensible swath of land either side along the
shores of the Black Sea, and not a shot will be fired. 

spike



From sparge at gmail.com  Mon Mar  3 17:50:13 2014
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2014 12:50:13 -0500
Subject: [ExI] guitar playing robot
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNQBQnpG_QtT9B2hUs4erMvAYcHj+0yBwLx9ArdJn4t-zw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <021e01cf365d$9021daf0$b06590d0$@att.net>
 <CAL_armjJg4QqgGpFQLY7uAJPQK7e-5d-iHCeVajAUZ6c=qYOKw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armhzsj5zOFSmWTwF7Vh3AzyAGzhNkNdUqVzukr7AdWGhrA@mail.gmail.com>
 <03b901cf36f9$09265f20$1b731d60$@att.net>
 <CALAdGNQBQnpG_QtT9B2hUs4erMvAYcHj+0yBwLx9ArdJn4t-zw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2f1_=rm1gcqWNOBR6EF3+OgAMhq5-HdGXKv7T24=NspqQ@mail.gmail.com>

Exactly, there's no need for guitar-playing robots with MIDI and Pro Tools.
No doubt this tech has allowed composers to realize their music without the
hurdle of mastering an instrument.

-Dave


On Mon, Mar 3, 2014 at 11:29 AM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mon, Mar 3, 2014 at 7:55 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>
>> What if all you need to do is write the music, then a robot can play it?
>>
>
> Let me twist that for you.  Google "autocomposer".  I have received quite
> a few compliments over the years on music I've created using such, which
> IIRC have never been played on anything that is not a computer (including
> smartphones, et cetera).
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From atymes at gmail.com  Mon Mar  3 19:06:01 2014
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2014 11:06:01 -0800
Subject: [ExI] putin and the three pirates problem
In-Reply-To: <000601cf3704$2c3659b0$84a30d10$@att.net>
References: <000601cf3704$2c3659b0$84a30d10$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNQXEcfBmegsKnY4WxTjQ0RxqNvpA5wd-JTiLZqTmx3hhg@mail.gmail.com>

On Mar 3, 2014 9:29 AM, "spike" <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> The current situation in Ukraine reminds me of that scenario.  Europe
> (including Ukraine) is one participant, (Obama plus the rest of the world)
> is one participant, Putin is the third, and Crimea is the bag of gold.
> Being the dealer, Putin can take as much as he wants now, knowing that
> neither the US nor Europe will fire.

How do you figure?  Europe and the US know that they won't fire at each
other.

> If the situation is vaguely analogous, then I make the following
prediction
> based on what little I know about a Nash equilibrium: Putin will
effectively
> annex Crimea and a broad defensible swath of land either side along the
> shores of the Black Sea, and not a shot will be fired.

You may be right, but because the American military is unable to take
another engagement at this time (it already fired and has yet to reload),
and Europe is unable to project much power (it never loaded the gun it now
has).
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Mon Mar  3 19:28:47 2014
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2014 13:28:47 -0600
Subject: [ExI] putin and the three pirates problem
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNQXEcfBmegsKnY4WxTjQ0RxqNvpA5wd-JTiLZqTmx3hhg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <000601cf3704$2c3659b0$84a30d10$@att.net>
 <CALAdGNQXEcfBmegsKnY4WxTjQ0RxqNvpA5wd-JTiLZqTmx3hhg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbE6SUzH_a4K=OVLFZ+4usZF+g8A8_svXRh=GH5+-oqYw@mail.gmail.com>

I can't see any way to lose in this situation provided we let Russia take
Crimea.  They have lost face with the international community (check out
what Zakaria has to say), scared Poland and others and will win a small
state that is already mostly Russian and we get Ukraine in the European
community along with others that may be waffling.

This is a public relations nightmare for Russia.    bill


On Mon, Mar 3, 2014 at 1:06 PM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mar 3, 2014 9:29 AM, "spike" <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> > The current situation in Ukraine reminds me of that scenario.  Europe
> > (including Ukraine) is one participant, (Obama plus the rest of the
> world)
> > is one participant, Putin is the third, and Crimea is the bag of gold.
> > Being the dealer, Putin can take as much as he wants now, knowing that
> > neither the US nor Europe will fire.
>
> How do you figure?  Europe and the US know that they won't fire at each
> other.
>
> > If the situation is vaguely analogous, then I make the following
> prediction
> > based on what little I know about a Nash equilibrium: Putin will
> effectively
> > annex Crimea and a broad defensible swath of land either side along the
> > shores of the Black Sea, and not a shot will be fired.
>
> You may be right, but because the American military is unable to take
> another engagement at this time (it already fired and has yet to reload),
> and Europe is unable to project much power (it never loaded the gun it now
> has).
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Mon Mar  3 19:32:16 2014
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2014 13:32:16 -0600
Subject: [ExI] guitar playing robot
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2f1_=rm1gcqWNOBR6EF3+OgAMhq5-HdGXKv7T24=NspqQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <021e01cf365d$9021daf0$b06590d0$@att.net>
 <CAL_armjJg4QqgGpFQLY7uAJPQK7e-5d-iHCeVajAUZ6c=qYOKw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armhzsj5zOFSmWTwF7Vh3AzyAGzhNkNdUqVzukr7AdWGhrA@mail.gmail.com>
 <03b901cf36f9$09265f20$1b731d60$@att.net>
 <CALAdGNQBQnpG_QtT9B2hUs4erMvAYcHj+0yBwLx9ArdJn4t-zw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2f1_=rm1gcqWNOBR6EF3+OgAMhq5-HdGXKv7T24=NspqQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZMksKgr8kRivq0ZHxsrrVwSA5Tvt+sJEu=PkP403Y0Mg@mail.gmail.com>

Player pianos are now very sophisticated and have been used since nearly
100 years ago.  Check out Nancarrow, a classical composer who wrote
exclusively for it, some of it way beyond human capability.

Trouble is, you get no nuances at all, no interpretation, the exact same
thing every time.  Surely programmers can work on that.  bill


On Mon, Mar 3, 2014 at 11:50 AM, Dave Sill <sparge at gmail.com> wrote:

> Exactly, there's no need for guitar-playing robots with MIDI and Pro
> Tools. No doubt this tech has allowed composers to realize their music
> without the hurdle of mastering an instrument.
>
> -Dave
>
>
> On Mon, Mar 3, 2014 at 11:29 AM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, Mar 3, 2014 at 7:55 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>>
>>> What if all you need to do is write the music, then a robot can play it?
>>>
>>
>> Let me twist that for you.  Google "autocomposer".  I have received quite
>> a few compliments over the years on music I've created using such, which
>> IIRC have never been played on anything that is not a computer (including
>> smartphones, et cetera).
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From nuala.t at gmail.com  Mon Mar  3 19:33:55 2014
From: nuala.t at gmail.com (Nuala Thomson)
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2014 06:33:55 +1100
Subject: [ExI] guitar playing robot
In-Reply-To: <03b901cf36f9$09265f20$1b731d60$@att.net>
References: <021e01cf365d$9021daf0$b06590d0$@att.net>
 <CAL_armjJg4QqgGpFQLY7uAJPQK7e-5d-iHCeVajAUZ6c=qYOKw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armhzsj5zOFSmWTwF7Vh3AzyAGzhNkNdUqVzukr7AdWGhrA@mail.gmail.com>
 <03b901cf36f9$09265f20$1b731d60$@att.net>
Message-ID: <49236192-31B7-4EE3-8394-59A329ED09E9@gmail.com>

That would be one way.
I played flute for 5 years. During that time I could write music that sounded good but it was never emotional.
I've now been playing bass guitar for 8 or so years, I couldn't write music for it but if I just jam that's when it feels heartfelt and emotional.

So in saying that, yes, someone could write music without ever putting in the effort. It may sound amazing, and it might be sub par. Atleast having an understanding of music theory would help quite a lot. So for someone who could not physically play an instrument but has a wealth of knowledge of the theory, they could write something that would still sound heartfelt and emotional if robots were to play it.

I might have not answered your question at all just now. I am still lacking morning coffee. 

Nuala Thomson



On 04/03/2014, at 2:55, "spike" <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

>> ... On Behalf Of BillK
> Subject: Re: [ExI] guitar playing robot
> 
>> ...Sorry, my memory failed me. It was a different German electronic
> synthesizer group concert I attended... BillK
> 
> I forgive thee, my son.  Go and forget no more.
> 
> Please, a question for musicians, specifically not voice but some kind of
> fingers instrument.  We spent years mastering how to play, working at it
> every day.  In a typical high school, you may end up with about 50 to 100
> horn players, perhaps 10-ish guitar players, but typically of that size
> group only one or two get good enough to express their feelings on a musical
> instrument because it takes years of focused effort.
> 
> What if all you need to do is write the music, then a robot can play it?  If
> a musician never puts in the years on a horn or a guitar, can she ever write
> cool music?  If we figure out how to let the robot hear us and carry the
> musical ideas, but play them cleanly, can we go straight to the expression
> stage without the practice-our-brains-out-until-we-don't-suck stage?
> 
> It isn't clear to me there is a good shortcut, but I am listening for
> counter-argument.
> 
> spike
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat



From spike66 at att.net  Mon Mar  3 22:57:50 2014
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2014 14:57:50 -0800
Subject: [ExI] guitar playing robot
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2f1_=rm1gcqWNOBR6EF3+OgAMhq5-HdGXKv7T24=NspqQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <021e01cf365d$9021daf0$b06590d0$@att.net>
 <CAL_armjJg4QqgGpFQLY7uAJPQK7e-5d-iHCeVajAUZ6c=qYOKw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armhzsj5zOFSmWTwF7Vh3AzyAGzhNkNdUqVzukr7AdWGhrA@mail.gmail.com>
 <03b901cf36f9$09265f20$1b731d60$@att.net>
 <CALAdGNQBQnpG_QtT9B2hUs4erMvAYcHj+0yBwLx9ArdJn4t-zw@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <011e01cf3734$01428f00$03c7ad00$@att.net>

 

 

From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Dave Sill
Sent: Monday, March 03, 2014 9:50 AM
To: ExI chat list
Subject: Re: [ExI] guitar playing robot

 

Exactly, there's no need for guitar-playing robots with MIDI and Pro Tools.
No doubt this tech has allowed composers to realize their music without the
hurdle of mastering an instrument.

-Dave

 

 

MIDI is a great composition tool, but I contend that for performance
purposes, actually plucking the strings on an actual guitar is better than
digital simulations of each pitch.  Reasoning: plucking a guitar string
excites resonances in other strings in different ways, depending on which
other strings are vibrating.  So in theory a MIDI guitar cannot be exactly
the same as an actual guitar.  MIDI is perfectly acceptable for composing,
but this guitar robot is the next step, a really cool one.

 

spike

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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Mon Mar  3 23:43:29 2014
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2014 17:43:29 -0600
Subject: [ExI] guitar playing robot
In-Reply-To: <011e01cf3734$01428f00$03c7ad00$@att.net>
References: <021e01cf365d$9021daf0$b06590d0$@att.net>
 <CAL_armjJg4QqgGpFQLY7uAJPQK7e-5d-iHCeVajAUZ6c=qYOKw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armhzsj5zOFSmWTwF7Vh3AzyAGzhNkNdUqVzukr7AdWGhrA@mail.gmail.com>
 <03b901cf36f9$09265f20$1b731d60$@att.net>
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Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZYhYC4gydw=q+mADuqO83kMzUaUaVA-RijNHeo8yV09g@mail.gmail.com>

Somebody needs to say that writing music for an instrument one cannot play
is likely to be inferior to the music composed by those who can play it.
At least some familiarity with the instrument's demands is essential even
if one's physical capabilities are limited (like mine!)

Spike:  did you know that a few centuries ago some stringed instruments had
strings that were never bowed nor plucked?  They were meant to vibrate in
sympathy with the ones that were played.   bill


On Mon, Mar 3, 2014 at 4:57 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *From:* extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:
> extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] *On Behalf Of *Dave Sill
> *Sent:* Monday, March 03, 2014 9:50 AM
> *To:* ExI chat list
>
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] guitar playing robot
>
>
>
> Exactly, there's no need for guitar-playing robots with MIDI and Pro
> Tools. No doubt this tech has allowed composers to realize their music
> without the hurdle of mastering an instrument.
>
> -Dave
>
>
>
>
>
> MIDI is a great composition tool, but I contend that for performance
> purposes, actually plucking the strings on an actual guitar is better than
> digital simulations of each pitch.  Reasoning: plucking a guitar string
> excites resonances in other strings in different ways, depending on which
> other strings are vibrating.  So in theory a MIDI guitar cannot be exactly
> the same as an actual guitar.  MIDI is perfectly acceptable for composing,
> but this guitar robot is the next step, a really cool one.
>
>
>
> spike
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From sparge at gmail.com  Tue Mar  4 00:07:55 2014
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2014 19:07:55 -0500
Subject: [ExI] guitar playing robot
In-Reply-To: <011e01cf3734$01428f00$03c7ad00$@att.net>
References: <021e01cf365d$9021daf0$b06590d0$@att.net>
 <CAL_armjJg4QqgGpFQLY7uAJPQK7e-5d-iHCeVajAUZ6c=qYOKw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armhzsj5zOFSmWTwF7Vh3AzyAGzhNkNdUqVzukr7AdWGhrA@mail.gmail.com>
 <03b901cf36f9$09265f20$1b731d60$@att.net>
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Message-ID: <CAM5aL2e2-pEYsaoTivJCsLCAi9T5EL-u8F4FLTT2Th_EuSpTng@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Mar 3, 2014 at 5:57 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

>
>
> MIDI is a great composition tool, but I contend that for performance
> purposes, actually plucking the strings on an actual guitar is better than
> digital simulations of each pitch.  Reasoning: plucking a guitar string
> excites resonances in other strings in different ways, depending on which
> other strings are vibrating.  So in theory a MIDI guitar cannot be exactly
> the same as an actual guitar.  MIDI is perfectly acceptable for composing,
> but this guitar robot is the next step, a really cool one.
>

Digital composition is more than MIDI and simple instrument simulations.
For example, listen to some of the demos here:


http://www.native-instruments.com/en/products/komplete/guitar/scarbee-rickenbacker-bass/?content=2335

These are digital compositions played using samples of real instruments.

The guitar robot is a cute visual art piece, but it's basically steam punk
tech: expensive, complex, and unreliable. It will never become a commercial
product.

-Dave
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From sparge at gmail.com  Tue Mar  4 00:15:02 2014
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2014 19:15:02 -0500
Subject: [ExI] guitar playing robot
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEZYhYC4gydw=q+mADuqO83kMzUaUaVA-RijNHeo8yV09g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <021e01cf365d$9021daf0$b06590d0$@att.net>
 <CAL_armjJg4QqgGpFQLY7uAJPQK7e-5d-iHCeVajAUZ6c=qYOKw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armhzsj5zOFSmWTwF7Vh3AzyAGzhNkNdUqVzukr7AdWGhrA@mail.gmail.com>
 <03b901cf36f9$09265f20$1b731d60$@att.net>
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Message-ID: <CAM5aL2dL0oW7c29kQVV2vvoWqXzQW9so0x0F64x78fM-ngpJVg@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Mar 3, 2014 at 6:43 PM, William Flynn Wallace
<foozler83 at gmail.com>wrote:

> Somebody needs to say that writing music for an instrument one cannot play
> is likely to be inferior to the music composed by those who can play it.
> At least some familiarity with the instrument's demands is essential even
> if one's physical capabilities are limited (like mine!)
>

It's also true that writing music for an instrument one can't play makes it
natural for the composer to compose music that human players can't play due
to their physical limitations (not enough fingers, impossible fretting
combinations, impossible speed, etc.).

Spike:  did you know that a few centuries ago some stringed instruments had
> strings that were never bowed nor plucked?  They were meant to vibrate in
> sympathy with the ones that were played.   bill
>

Still pretty common:

   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sympathetic_string

-Dave
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From hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu  Tue Mar  4 01:28:12 2014
From: hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu (Henry Rivera)
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2014 20:28:12 -0500
Subject: [ExI] guitar playing robot
In-Reply-To: <011e01cf3734$01428f00$03c7ad00$@att.net>
References: <021e01cf365d$9021daf0$b06590d0$@att.net>
 <CAL_armjJg4QqgGpFQLY7uAJPQK7e-5d-iHCeVajAUZ6c=qYOKw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armhzsj5zOFSmWTwF7Vh3AzyAGzhNkNdUqVzukr7AdWGhrA@mail.gmail.com>
 <03b901cf36f9$09265f20$1b731d60$@att.net>
 <CALAdGNQBQnpG_QtT9B2hUs4erMvAYcHj+0yBwLx9ArdJn4t-zw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2f1_=rm1gcqWNOBR6EF3+OgAMhq5-HdGXKv7T24=NspqQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <011e01cf3734$01428f00$03c7ad00$@att.net>
Message-ID: <A3DA1724-1E03-4438-BC8A-38ABF7A7BC66@alumni.virginia.edu>


> On Mar 3, 2014, at 5:57 PM, "spike" <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> 
>  
>  
> From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Dave Sill
> Sent: Monday, March 03, 2014 9:50 AM
> To: ExI chat list
> Subject: Re: [ExI] guitar playing robot
>  
> Exactly, there's no need for guitar-playing robots with MIDI and Pro Tools. No doubt this tech has allowed composers to realize their music without the hurdle of mastering an instrument.
> 
> -Dave
>  
>  
> MIDI is a great composition tool, but I contend that for performance purposes, actually plucking the strings on an actual guitar is better than digital simulations of each pitch.  Reasoning: plucking a guitar string excites resonances in other strings in different ways, depending on which other strings are vibrating.  So in theory a MIDI guitar cannot be exactly the same as an actual guitar.  MIDI is perfectly acceptable for composing, but this guitar robot is the next step, a really cool one.
>  
> spike

'Plucking strings' vs 'samples of plucking strings' aside, there is the notion that humans are betters players than MIDI because they are more emotional. The thing is, a piece can be performed by a human and recorded live into MIDI. Then playing it back would sound identical to the human performance. The nuances, off beat notes, intensity/volume changes can be represented in MIDI (depending on the instrument). So if not put there when composing with MIDI, they can can be recorded during human playback into MIDI. 

We are already there. Computers play compositions as well as humans and most don't even notice. And that's the point--one can't tell the difference. That is, unless the computers are outperforming the humans and doing what humans find impossible. 
-Henry
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From anders at aleph.se  Tue Mar  4 11:28:55 2014
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2014 12:28:55 +0100
Subject: [ExI] putin and the three pirates problem
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEbE6SUzH_a4K=OVLFZ+4usZF+g8A8_svXRh=GH5+-oqYw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2362684850-25297@secure.ericade.net>

William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com> , 3/3/2014 8:31 PM:
I can't see any way to lose in this situation provided we let Russia take Crimea.? They have lost face with the international community (check out what Zakaria has to say), scared Poland and others and will win a small state that is already mostly Russian and we get Ukraine in the European community along with others that may be waffling.
 
This is a public relations nightmare for Russia.?
Putin is an excellent tactician but a lousy strategist. He got everything he wanted: Crimea (symbolically important), a 'war' to unify his nation, a chance to look buff, putting Ukraine and democrats in their place and so on. He does not care about foreign opinion, so it is not a problem. But indeed, this will make every state around Russia start to look towards NATO and EU, it produces a new source of unrest inside Russia, it breaks off international links, it makes it even harder to transition away from a raw materials based economy in the face of demographic winter, it loses Russia potential allies and any chance at claiming to not be a rogue state. So from a longer perspective it makes all of the Russian problems worse in the future. Putin may be fine with that, since he doesn't seem to aim for a political dynasty. He (and presumably his clique of core allies) just wants to stay ahead personally.
He has read his Machiavelli, but skipped the chapters on making a viable dynasty. Sometimes the long game matters.?


Anders Sandberg, Future of Humanity Institute Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University
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From pharos at gmail.com  Tue Mar  4 13:40:55 2014
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2014 13:40:55 +0000
Subject: [ExI] putin and the three pirates problem
In-Reply-To: <2362684850-25297@secure.ericade.net>
References: <CAO+xQEbE6SUzH_a4K=OVLFZ+4usZF+g8A8_svXRh=GH5+-oqYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <2362684850-25297@secure.ericade.net>
Message-ID: <CAL_armj8JAe7vaJdZ6gPtOOP4hWrUNS1WQcLEK+128GL5v1thg@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Mar 4, 2014 at 11:28 AM, Anders Sandberg wrote:
> Putin is an excellent tactician but a lousy strategist. He got everything he
> wanted: Crimea (symbolically important), a 'war' to unify his nation, a
> chance to look buff, putting Ukraine and democrats in their place and so on.
> He does not care about foreign opinion, so it is not a problem. But indeed,
> this will make every state around Russia start to look towards NATO and EU,
> it produces a new source of unrest inside Russia, it breaks off
> international links, it makes it even harder to transition away from a raw
> materials based economy in the face of demographic winter, it loses Russia
> potential allies and any chance at claiming to not be a rogue state. So from
> a longer perspective it makes all of the Russian problems worse in the
> future. Putin may be fine with that, since he doesn't seem to aim for a
> political dynasty. He (and presumably his clique of core allies) just wants
> to stay ahead personally.
>
> He has read his Machiavelli, but skipped the chapters on making a viable
> dynasty. Sometimes the long game matters.
>
>

Foreign opinion might not matter too much. The idea that only the US
and UK have the right to invade other countries for made-up reasons is
rapidly alienating the rest of the world. Only the US dollar and fear
of their military is keeping the rest of the world 'friendly'. Crimea
speaks Russian and *was* Russian until quite recently, so Putin is
protecting his people against the neo-Nazis taking over in Kiev. Look
at the way Crimea has welcomed the Russian troops. China has supported
Putin and I wouldn't be surprised if more countries support him as
well. Europe will probably refuse to implement sanctions, as they
object to cutting their own throats.
(Russia supplies energy to Europe).

BillK


From aleksei at iki.fi  Tue Mar  4 14:39:38 2014
From: aleksei at iki.fi (Aleksei Riikonen)
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2014 16:39:38 +0200
Subject: [ExI] putin and the three pirates problem
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armj8JAe7vaJdZ6gPtOOP4hWrUNS1WQcLEK+128GL5v1thg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbE6SUzH_a4K=OVLFZ+4usZF+g8A8_svXRh=GH5+-oqYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <2362684850-25297@secure.ericade.net>
 <CAL_armj8JAe7vaJdZ6gPtOOP4hWrUNS1WQcLEK+128GL5v1thg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAF=HMEDc-DaVNgyYitCDYPcRNU0NminA81x3dik29Z2xxRrEvg@mail.gmail.com>

I predict that Russia will not only take Crimea, but the rest of
Ukraine as well (non-militarily probably, though this is not certain)
within a couple of years, chiefly because this crisis will end up
showing that the EU is actually extremely weak. The West of course
doesn't have the balls to send troops, and neither will they cough up
the money with which they could now probably take Ukraine if they
really wanted to.

Russia's relations with the West will deteriorate, yes, but Putin
doesn't really mind, since a more confrontational international mood
might actually make it easier for him to remain in power (Russia's
economic prospects were already fading anyway, so he needs some other
angle). He is fine with Russia becoming more of a rogue state.
Meanwhile, the EU will actually lose *a lot* as a consequence of this
crisis, since they will end up looking much weaker than many people
yet realized they are. (The whole EU project will btw collapse in the
next few decades once Germany gets tired of paying the bills for
everyone and calls it quits.)

The US, on the other hand, just doesn't genuinely care very much about
Ukraine. They probably won't even put up any real sanctions on Russia,
since the EU weaklings will object to those, e.g. because European
bankers want to continue making money hiding and laundering the wealth
of Putin's gang.

-- 
Aleksei Riikonen - http://www.iki.fi/aleksei


From rtomek at ceti.pl  Tue Mar  4 16:43:07 2014
From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola)
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2014 17:43:07 +0100
Subject: [ExI] putin and the three pirates problem
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armj8JAe7vaJdZ6gPtOOP4hWrUNS1WQcLEK+128GL5v1thg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbE6SUzH_a4K=OVLFZ+4usZF+g8A8_svXRh=GH5+-oqYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <2362684850-25297@secure.ericade.net>
 <CAL_armj8JAe7vaJdZ6gPtOOP4hWrUNS1WQcLEK+128GL5v1thg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20140304164307.GA16218@tau1.ceti.pl>

On Tue, Mar 04, 2014 at 01:40:55PM +0000, BillK wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 4, 2014 at 11:28 AM, Anders Sandberg wrote:
> > Putin is an excellent tactician but a lousy strategist. He got 
> > everything he wanted: Crimea (symbolically important), a 'war' to 
> > unify his nation, a chance to look buff, putting Ukraine and 
> > democrats in their place and so on. He does not care about foreign 
> > opinion, so it is not a problem. But indeed, this will make every 
> > state around Russia start to look towards NATO and EU, it produces a 
> > new source of unrest inside Russia, it breaks off international 
> > links, it makes it even harder to transition away from a raw 
> > materials based economy in the face of demographic winter, it loses 
> > Russia potential allies and any chance at claiming to not be a rogue 
> > state. So from a longer perspective it makes all of the Russian 
> > problems worse in the future. Putin may be fine with that, since he 
> > doesn't seem to aim for a political dynasty. He (and presumably his 
> > clique of core allies) just wants to stay ahead personally.
> >
> > He has read his Machiavelli, but skipped the chapters on making a 
> > viable dynasty. Sometimes the long game matters.
> >
> >
> 
> Foreign opinion might not matter too much. The idea that only the US 
> and UK have the right to invade other countries for made-up reasons is 
> rapidly alienating the rest of the world. Only the US dollar and fear 
> of their military is keeping the rest of the world 'friendly'.

You mean, there are no ideals on our side that we would find worthy 
enough to unite around them? You make me feel so shallow!

If yes, do you mean the other side is actually better in this regard?

Explain both answers, please.

> Crimea speaks Russian and *was* Russian until quite recently,

And before that it belonged to Tatars. And before that, to Greeks. And 
before that...

And in between those times, it belonged to many others (or remained 
inside their sphere of influence), like Ottomans, Genoans, etc etc.

And one could argue there would have been more, say, Tatars living there 
if they weren't all packed into trains and exported to eastern Soviet 
Union (with half of them dead as a result). Their posessions taken over 
by Russians (and Ukrainians, I can only guess). Actually, it looks like 
Tatar population was "worked upon" on various times while they remained 
Russian subjects.

Crimea has been given to Ukraine in 1954 by Russia, voluntarily, roughly 
hundred years after it could be called truly Russian (i.e. after Crimean 
War ended in 1856). In 1994 Russia signed Budapest Memorandum along with 
USA and UK. In it, among other things, integrity of Ukrainian territory 
had been guaranteed, with all sides mentioned taking the role of 
guarantors.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances

According to wikipedia, Crimea already _is_ The Autonomous Republic of 
Crimea, "an autonomous parliamentary republic within Ukraine" - created 
in 1917, abolished in 1921 by Soviet Union, restored in 1992. On 6th May 
1992 Crimean Parliament itself declared that Crimea was part of Ukraine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimea

Which is why we can have news about some guys issuing their messages 
from Crimean Parliament. This Parliament was there for the last twenty 
years, have not constituted itself out of the air last month or week.

> so Putin is protecting his people against the neo-Nazis taking over in 
> Kiev. Look

AFAIK this statement is a summary of Russian medial campaign, repeated 
by some Western newspapers. BTW, what are the names of neonazi leaders? If 
they are taking over, they certainly have nonanonymous leaders?

I have also heard Russian media make very nasty noises about West itself. 
Will have to investigate if time permits. So far, the allegations that 
European Union is just some gay conspiracy promoting homogenic marriages 
are probably the least nasty of their brainwashing content.

> at the way Crimea has welcomed the Russian troops.

Yes?

I heard "Crimea" watches very carefully to avoid any violence. Other 
than Russian bases, there are no Russian troops there - according to 
president Putin himself. Those are just some self-defence groups. This 
is what he said to journalists few hours ago. Of course, one could 
wonder how those self-defence groups managed to get hold of machine guns 
and armoured vehicles, but apparently they are very creative.

So I'm not sure where you got this idea that civilians are welcoming 
Russian troops. Which means, why do you think they like Russians at all?

Also, at least some Crimeans are keeping their ground and don't give up 
to pressure of anonymous self-defence groups. And I am not going to bet 
which side fares better in case pushing around turns into shooting.

BTW, self-defence against what? As far as I can tell, self defence is 
wait for attack and then organise to defend against next one. Not before 
the first one, which is yet to happen, which is why there is no 
violence. At least not yet. I mean, I haven't heard about anything 
justifying this taking your machine gun and going to the street (I mean, 
on the peninsula at least). Normal people, one expects, make a civil 
protest first.

BTW2, since president Putin declared that Ukrainian and Russian troops 
will stand on the same side, it means he wants to help against this 
self-defence. Their prospects now look so bad. Not only they are not 
Russians, they are going to be purged by collective effort of Ukrainian 
and Russian military. This is deduction I make from official Russian 
statements.

I am now watching Ukrainian soldiers armed with just two flags march 
against self-defence to take their base back from them. Self-defence 
shoots in the air, Ukrainians sing their anthem. Negotiations.

> China has supported Putin and I wouldn't be surprised if more 
> countries support him as well.

I've heard China is cutting itself off all this and won't support Putin.

> Europe will probably refuse to implement sanctions, as they object to 
> cutting their own throats. (Russia supplies energy to Europe).

Unfortunately, I have to agree. West is notoriously undecided whether it 
wants to live or to die - and plan accordingly. If not all of the "West" 
then at least some well visible parts of it. And there are plenty of 
particular interests, self promotion at the cost of pushing others into 
the abyss, all very short term and stupid. If you feed the abyss like 
some ordinary hole, it grows rather than being filled with dead bodies, 
because it's not just some ordinary hole. And finally it comes to your 
doors. I say, it happens sooner and always surprises those who treat it 
like a hole. This is the abyss' way.

I also agree with Anders. So far it looks like Putin is playing his own 
(more or less) personal game, which is going to cost Russia (Russians) 
quite a lot. But it's not some ad hoc caprice of his. There was many 
months of preparations. I am far from decided if this is just about 
Crimea cooming back to Russia. Maybe it'a about something else which is 
yet to show up. Wrt to making dynasty, there are no dynasties in 
corporations so far as I can tell. Perhaps Russia is something else it 
poses to be, i.e. not nation-state.

Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.      **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home    **           
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...      **           
**                                                                 **           
** Tomasz Rola          mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com             **


From johnkclark at gmail.com  Tue Mar  4 18:41:28 2014
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2014 13:41:28 -0500
Subject: [ExI] putin and the three pirates problem
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEbE6SUzH_a4K=OVLFZ+4usZF+g8A8_svXRh=GH5+-oqYw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <000601cf3704$2c3659b0$84a30d10$@att.net>
 <CALAdGNQXEcfBmegsKnY4WxTjQ0RxqNvpA5wd-JTiLZqTmx3hhg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEbE6SUzH_a4K=OVLFZ+4usZF+g8A8_svXRh=GH5+-oqYw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv0kxnw18EHD=FvM6nCRC-dj9RkSciqMH0_O9wnPYGC1Tw@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Mar 3, 2014 at 2:28 PM, William Flynn Wallace
<foozler83 at gmail.com>wrote:

> I can't see any way to lose in this situation provided we let Russia take
Crimea.

Obviously military action is out of the question, but I think sanctions
against Russia should be imposed because unless Putin is punished in some
way he might be encouraged to invade other countries that were once part of
the former USSR  like Estonia and Latvia, and they are part of NATO unlike
Crimea or the Ukraine. If Russia invaded  Estonia or Latvia NATO would be
treaty bound to intervene militarily, and I hate to think where that would
lead.

  John K Clark
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From aleksei at iki.fi  Tue Mar  4 23:57:48 2014
From: aleksei at iki.fi (Aleksei Riikonen)
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 01:57:48 +0200
Subject: [ExI] putin and the three pirates problem
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv0kxnw18EHD=FvM6nCRC-dj9RkSciqMH0_O9wnPYGC1Tw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <000601cf3704$2c3659b0$84a30d10$@att.net>
 <CALAdGNQXEcfBmegsKnY4WxTjQ0RxqNvpA5wd-JTiLZqTmx3hhg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEbE6SUzH_a4K=OVLFZ+4usZF+g8A8_svXRh=GH5+-oqYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv0kxnw18EHD=FvM6nCRC-dj9RkSciqMH0_O9wnPYGC1Tw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAF=HMEDi7Wo7cpF6vwp8GJRzF9em=Tz94K3A+hBVUFGgZ4oh4g@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Mar 4, 2014 at 8:41 PM, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> If Russia invaded  Estonia or Latvia NATO would be treaty bound to
> intervene militarily, and I hate to think where that would lead.

Probably to the US saying "screw you guys, we're not gonna risk
nuclear war over you. It was nice having you as cannon fodder in Iraq
and Afghanistan, but since Russia called our bluff and this NATO thing
therefore no longer works for us, we're just gonna forget about the
whole thing and let you Eastern Europeans sort things out amongst
yourselves. In other words, we think the new normal is that countries
with nuclear weapons are free to invade any country without nuclear
weapons."

-- 
Aleksei Riikonen - http://www.iki.fi/aleksei


From anders at aleph.se  Wed Mar  5 00:26:05 2014
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 01:26:05 +0100
Subject: [ExI] putin and the three pirates problem
In-Reply-To: <CAF=HMEDi7Wo7cpF6vwp8GJRzF9em=Tz94K3A+hBVUFGgZ4oh4g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2409066570-29884@secure.ericade.net>

Aleksei Riikonen <aleksei at iki.fi> , 5/3/2014 1:03 AM:
On Tue, Mar 4, 2014 at 8:41 PM, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote: 
> 
> If Russia invaded ?Estonia or Latvia NATO would be treaty bound to 
> intervene militarily, and I hate to think where that would lead. 
 
Probably to the US saying "screw you guys, we're not gonna risk 
nuclear war over you. It was nice having you as cannon fodder in Iraq 
and Afghanistan, but since Russia called our bluff and this NATO thing 
therefore no longer works for us, we're just gonna forget about the 
whole thing and let you Eastern Europeans sort things out amongst 
yourselves. In other words, we think the new normal is that countries 
with nuclear weapons are free to invade any country without nuclear 
weapons." 
At that point the power gets cut to the US military bases in Germany and elsewhere. Treaties are serious matters, and not just bureaucratic games.?
The US force projection ability is very dependent on a friendly nations providing support - one reason the US is desperately trying to keep Pakistan playing along despite parts of the government doing things that would get most normal nations placed on the 'axis of evil'. It is quite essential for the US ability to do anything in Afghanistan, including withdrawing (just like Turkmenistan, another somewhat sleazy government). Just look at how?Kyrgyzstan?and Pakistan have exploited the dependency. I would expect a noticeable harshening in US tone against Pakistan as soon as the last soldiers leave Afghanistan.?
It is of course always possible to leave allies out to hang, but it does tend to come back and bite you. The US has done a pretty impressive job of it over the past decade, and it is actually showing in its current impotence - immense political capital and goodwill has been lost.?

Anders Sandberg, Future of Humanity Institute Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University
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From aleksei at iki.fi  Wed Mar  5 00:53:36 2014
From: aleksei at iki.fi (Aleksei Riikonen)
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 02:53:36 +0200
Subject: [ExI] putin and the three pirates problem
In-Reply-To: <2409066570-29884@secure.ericade.net>
References: <CAF=HMEDi7Wo7cpF6vwp8GJRzF9em=Tz94K3A+hBVUFGgZ4oh4g@mail.gmail.com>
 <2409066570-29884@secure.ericade.net>
Message-ID: <CAF=HMEBbMfv8a5rTLz21FzJw7F-5WtFEq5EQG0RfskicgADLvA@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Mar 5, 2014 at 2:26 AM, Anders Sandberg <anders at aleph.se> wrote:
>
> It is of course always possible to leave allies out to hang,
> but it does tend to come back and bite you.

Yes. It however probably wouldn't bite as severely as a serious risk
of a major nuclear war.

The US is a big country in a geographically extremely defensible
position. They don't really need allies if they're willing to give up
their global empire. And I do think giving up the empire and getting
more isolationist would be better than risking a major nuclear war.

(Also, I personally *want* NATO to break-up, since we could then have
a German-led military alliance in Europe, and I much prefer allying
with the Germans when compared to the US, since I see the US as being
on the somewhat inevitable road of becoming a very nasty plutocratic
police state -- they don't really care about human rights or anything,
what with the spying on everyone and senior figures saying they'd like
to assassinate Snowden and so on.)

I'm not *extremely* confident that the US would give up the empire,
though. It would be wiser than risking nuclear war, but of course the
economic losses would be... substantial, to say the least. (But still
much more survivable than a nuclear war.)

-- 
Aleksei Riikonen - http://www.iki.fi/aleksei


From aleksei at iki.fi  Wed Mar  5 01:00:37 2014
From: aleksei at iki.fi (Aleksei Riikonen)
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 03:00:37 +0200
Subject: [ExI] putin and the three pirates problem
In-Reply-To: <CAF=HMEBbMfv8a5rTLz21FzJw7F-5WtFEq5EQG0RfskicgADLvA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAF=HMEDi7Wo7cpF6vwp8GJRzF9em=Tz94K3A+hBVUFGgZ4oh4g@mail.gmail.com>
 <2409066570-29884@secure.ericade.net>
 <CAF=HMEBbMfv8a5rTLz21FzJw7F-5WtFEq5EQG0RfskicgADLvA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAF=HMEBx+ocXzZXrn1d_qV-HswR_On-jbzO_QG_aLdb78+t59Q@mail.gmail.com>

Oh, and I should have said all along:

If the US intends to defend Estonia and such, they should send
substantial amounts of troops to base there *now*. That would
demonstrate to the Russians that they can't invade without a real war.

If the US however *doesn't* set up real military bases in some NATO
countries, I am inclined to read that as a signal that the promise of
defending those countries is a bluff.

-- 
Aleksei Riikonen - http://www.iki.fi/aleksei


From listsb at infinitefaculty.org  Wed Mar  5 01:53:55 2014
From: listsb at infinitefaculty.org (Brian Manning Delaney)
Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2014 20:53:55 -0500
Subject: [ExI] putin and the three pirates problem
In-Reply-To: <CAF=HMEBbMfv8a5rTLz21FzJw7F-5WtFEq5EQG0RfskicgADLvA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAF=HMEDi7Wo7cpF6vwp8GJRzF9em=Tz94K3A+hBVUFGgZ4oh4g@mail.gmail.com>
 <2409066570-29884@secure.ericade.net>
 <CAF=HMEBbMfv8a5rTLz21FzJw7F-5WtFEq5EQG0RfskicgADLvA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <531683B3.3010508@infinitefaculty.org>


El 2014-03-04 19:53, Aleksei Riikonen escribi?:

> (Also, I personally *want* NATO to break-up, since we could then have
> a German-led military alliance in Europe  [...].

Germany's track record with its use of appreciable military power isn't 
exactly enviable.

> and I much prefer allying
> with the Germans when compared to the US, since I see the US as being
> on the somewhat inevitable road of becoming a very nasty plutocratic
> police state

All industrially developed countries are on that same path. It's just 
more obvious in the case of the US, because the US is a superpower.

> they don't really care about human rights or anything,

The US, compared to other superpowers that have existed throughout 
history (no other comparison matters), has perhaps the greatest concern 
for human rights. Doesn't say much, since superpowers per definition 
don't NEED to care about others much. But still.

> what with the spying on everyone and senior figures saying they'd like
> to assassinate Snowden and so on.)

All countries spy on as many people as they can. The difference with the 
US? There is a healthy skepticism towards centralized power, which makes 
critical journalism and whistle-blowing more likely. Where's the UK 
Snowden? The German Snowden?

> I'm not *extremely* confident that the US would give up the empire,
> though. It would be wiser than risking nuclear war, but of course the
> economic losses would be... substantial, to say the least. (But still
> much more survivable than a nuclear war.)

God help us if Germany or the EU replaces the US as the world's 
superpower -- though I do think the US is on the wrong track, but so is 
everyone, ESPECIALLY Europe:

http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/03/russia-vladimir-putin-the-west-104134.html

"Europe is really run by an elite with the morality of the hedge fund: 
Make money at all costs and move it offshore."

Brian



From aleksei at iki.fi  Wed Mar  5 03:54:13 2014
From: aleksei at iki.fi (Aleksei Riikonen)
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 05:54:13 +0200
Subject: [ExI] putin and the three pirates problem
In-Reply-To: <531683B3.3010508@infinitefaculty.org>
References: <CAF=HMEDi7Wo7cpF6vwp8GJRzF9em=Tz94K3A+hBVUFGgZ4oh4g@mail.gmail.com>
 <2409066570-29884@secure.ericade.net>
 <CAF=HMEBbMfv8a5rTLz21FzJw7F-5WtFEq5EQG0RfskicgADLvA@mail.gmail.com>
 <531683B3.3010508@infinitefaculty.org>
Message-ID: <CAF=HMECyprZVob7vphKgkQQfqq=SnS+22qdUBgLc4bLm_B32ag@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Mar 5, 2014 at 3:53 AM, Brian Manning Delaney
<listsb at infinitefaculty.org> wrote:
> El 2014-03-04 19:53, Aleksei Riikonen escribi?:
>
>> (Also, I personally *want* NATO to break-up, since we could
>> then have a German-led military alliance in Europe  [...].
>
> Germany's track record with its use of appreciable military
> power isn't exactly enviable.

There's no sense in arguing that that'd have anything to do with the
Germany of today, just like Americans aren't necessarily particularly
prone to supporting race-based slavery because their Founding Fathers
practiced it.


>> I see the US as being on the somewhat inevitable road of
>> becoming a very nasty plutocratic police state
>
> All industrially developed countries are on that same path. It's just more
> obvious in the case of the US, because the US is a superpower.

The plutocracy part is pretty universal, but the nastiness thing can
only really happen with large and strong countries, and not with e.g.
Iceland, since small democracies necessarily have only small power
apparatuses that can't easily get very far removed from the people.

I also think there's a specific thing here about "empires in decline".
The US is about to become an empire in decline, and such is a
circumstance particularly prone to inducing nastiness when the empire
tries to hold on to as much of its power as it can.


>> they don't really care about human rights or anything,
>
> The US, compared to other superpowers that have existed throughout history
> (no other comparison matters), has perhaps the greatest concern for human
> rights. Doesn't say much, since superpowers per definition don't NEED to
> care about others much. But still.

It is true that the US at least *had* more concern for human rights
than any other superpower has had, but I don't see how this'd be very
interesting in the present situation. Mostly this just has to do with
the US being the most recent Western superpower, anyway, and if some
other country ends up becoming the next Western superpower, they very
well might have significantly more concern for human rights, just
because of the trend of increasing respect for them that has existed
in the West at least up to now.

So there's no American exceptionalism here, just the thing that some
Western superpowers are more recent than others.


>> what with the spying on everyone and senior figures saying they'd
>> like to assassinate Snowden and so on.)
>
> All countries spy on as many people as they can. The difference with the US?
> There is a healthy skepticism towards centralized power, which makes
> critical journalism and whistle-blowing more likely. Where's the UK Snowden?
> The German Snowden?

The US has the biggest Western spy organizations, so other things
being equal, it was likely that the first Snowden happened to be an
American.

Also, I do think the Germans of today actually are much more wary of
these kinds of things than many others. They really aren't fans of the
things that were going on on their turf some decades ago, and have
semi-fresh memories of Stasi, among other things. Americans have no
such unpleasant memories of living in a surveillance state, and so are
*much* more prone to saying and feeling things like "What does
surveillance matter if you're not doing anything wrong?"


> God help us if Germany or the EU replaces the US as the world's superpower
> -- though I do think the US is on the wrong track, but so is everyone,
> ESPECIALLY Europe:
>
> http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/03/russia-vladimir-putin-the-west-104134.html
>
> "Europe is really run by an elite with the morality of the hedge fund: Make
> money at all costs and move it offshore."

Yes, that linked article is very good actually. I've been spreading it
around as well.

I wish in no way to defend the EU, and am confident it will
disintegrate in a few decades at the latest. It is already very weak
actually, so no worries about it becoming a superpower.

I am looking forward to what we can have in Europe after the EU breaks
up, however, and don't really see any particular problems with Germany
leading the way, also as the key member in a new defense alliance that
I hope will eventually form to replace NATO in continental Europe.

-- 
Aleksei Riikonen - http://www.iki.fi/aleksei



From tara at taramayastales.com  Wed Mar  5 04:14:55 2014
From: tara at taramayastales.com (Tara Maya)
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2014 20:14:55 -0800
Subject: [ExI] putin and the three pirates problem
In-Reply-To: <CAF=HMECyprZVob7vphKgkQQfqq=SnS+22qdUBgLc4bLm_B32ag@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAF=HMEDi7Wo7cpF6vwp8GJRzF9em=Tz94K3A+hBVUFGgZ4oh4g@mail.gmail.com>
 <2409066570-29884@secure.ericade.net>
 <CAF=HMEBbMfv8a5rTLz21FzJw7F-5WtFEq5EQG0RfskicgADLvA@mail.gmail.com>
 <531683B3.3010508@infinitefaculty.org>
 <CAF=HMECyprZVob7vphKgkQQfqq=SnS+22qdUBgLc4bLm_B32ag@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BDE8B5B7-A9D7-445D-BE10-CB9CA5ACA6AF@taramayastales.com>


On Mar 4, 2014, at 7:54 PM, Aleksei Riikonen <aleksei at iki.fi> wrote:

> There's no sense in arguing that that'd have anything to do with the
> Germany of today, just like Americans aren't necessarily particularly
> prone to supporting race-based slavery because their Founding Fathers
> practiced it.


I imagine many Ukrainians would prefer military assistance from Germany than from Russia. Unlike Russia, Germany could offer considerable experience in transitioning from dictatorships to democracy.

Tara Maya
Blog  |  Twitter  |  Facebook  |  Amazon  |  Goodreads






From natasha at natasha.cc  Wed Mar  5 21:41:45 2014
From: natasha at natasha.cc (natasha at natasha.cc)
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 14:41:45 -0700
Subject: [ExI] 17th World Business Dialogue Conference - Cologne, Germany
Message-ID: <002a01cf38bb$b58f9740$20aec5c0$@natasha.cc>

For any of our members in Germany, this is an amazing event!  

Website: http://www.world-business-dialogue.com/

Speakers: http://www.world-business-dialogue.com/?page_id=11768

 

Cheers!

Natasha

 

 

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From listsb at infinitefaculty.org  Wed Mar  5 23:56:09 2014
From: listsb at infinitefaculty.org (Brian Manning Delaney)
Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2014 00:56:09 +0100
Subject: [ExI] putin and the three pirates problem
In-Reply-To: <CAF=HMECyprZVob7vphKgkQQfqq=SnS+22qdUBgLc4bLm_B32ag@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAF=HMEDi7Wo7cpF6vwp8GJRzF9em=Tz94K3A+hBVUFGgZ4oh4g@mail.gmail.com>
 <2409066570-29884@secure.ericade.net>
 <CAF=HMEBbMfv8a5rTLz21FzJw7F-5WtFEq5EQG0RfskicgADLvA@mail.gmail.com>
 <531683B3.3010508@infinitefaculty.org>
 <CAF=HMECyprZVob7vphKgkQQfqq=SnS+22qdUBgLc4bLm_B32ag@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5317B999.9070601@infinitefaculty.org>

El 2014-03-05 04:54, Aleksei Riikonen escribi?:
> On Wed, Mar 5, 2014 at 3:53 AM, Brian Manning Delaney
> <listsb at infinitefaculty.org> wrote:
>> El 2014-03-04 19:53, Aleksei Riikonen escribi?:
>>
>>> (Also, I personally *want* NATO to break-up, since we could
>>> then have a German-led military alliance in Europe  [...].
>>
>> Germany's track record with its use of appreciable military
>> power isn't exactly enviable.
>
> There's no sense in arguing that that'd have anything to do with the
> Germany of today, just like Americans aren't necessarily particularly
> prone to supporting race-based slavery because their Founding Fathers
> practiced it.

Well, eight or so generations is a different matter from two or so. (And 
I'm not sure the attitudes that made slavery possible have changed so 
radically, alas....)

There is no historical exception to the following rule: when Europeans 
have "super" power, really bad things happen. But it doesn't mean it 
would have to happen again. But I still would prefer a deteriorating US 
superpower to a resurgent European one, if I had to choose. (But things 
may look different in twenty years.)

Personally, I would love to see what would happen if Australia could be 
the next superpower (which it can't because it's population is too low). 
It has so many things in common with the US it would sort of be like a 
Take 2 on the experiment of a geographically huge country with strong 
historical connections to the UK, and with tons of resources and a 
diverse though, at least to begin with, mostly Western European population.


>>> I see the US as being on the somewhat inevitable road of
>>> becoming a very nasty plutocratic police state
>>
>> All industrially developed countries are on that same path. It's just more
>> obvious in the case of the US, because the US is a superpower.
>
> The plutocracy part is pretty universal, but the nastiness thing can
> only really happen with large and strong countries, and not with e.g.
> Iceland, since small democracies necessarily have only small power
> apparatuses that can't easily get very far removed from the people.

Well, the UK seems nastier than the US (with respect to snooping, etc.), 
annd it's much smaller, and shrinking (in many ways) at a faster rate.

> I also think there's a specific thing here about "empires in decline".

Agree strongly here! But, the question is whether you're right here:

> The US is about to become an empire in decline  [...].

I fear you are indeed right, but it's not obvious to me. The US has 
faced somewhat (only somewhat) similar circumstances in the past, and 
grown even stronger.

> and such is a
> circumstance particularly prone to inducing nastiness when the empire
> tries to hold on to as much of its power as it can.

Absolutely.

>>> they don't really care about human rights or anything,
>>
>> The US, compared to other superpowers that have existed throughout history
>> (no other comparison matters), has perhaps the greatest concern for human
>> rights. Doesn't say much, since superpowers per definition don't NEED to
>> care about others much. But still.
>
> It is true that the US at least *had* more concern for human rights
> than any other superpower has had, but I don't see how this'd be very
> interesting in the present situation. Mostly this just has to do with
> the US being the most recent Western superpower, anyway, and if some
> other country ends up becoming the next Western superpower, they very
> well might have significantly more concern for human rights, just
> because of the trend of increasing respect for them that has existed
> in the West at least up to now.

I don't see much of a general increase. A bit, sure, but not much 
changed for a couple centuries. And leaving the criterion of the West 
aside, compare the US of the late 1930s/early 1940s to, say, the Japan 
-- to say nothing of the Germany or even the UK (which was a pretty 
nasty entity then) of the same period. I'd say the US is exceptional, 
or, let's say "unusual", as a superpower.

And note: the biggest historical increase in concern for human rights 
may have been driven by Americans, not a wave Americans simply rode.

> So there's no American exceptionalism here, just the thing that some
> Western superpowers are more recent than others.

I think the US has been exceptional, but it's gradually falling into a 
condition of "state capture" (moneyed interests control too much power 
for that power to be taken from them), like virtually all empires 
eventually do. Of course, that's begun happening before, and the US has 
recovered. But it might not this time.

Brian



From frankmac at ripco.com  Thu Mar  6 00:03:26 2014
From: frankmac at ripco.com (frank mcelligott)
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 17:03:26 -0700
Subject: [ExI] PUTIN AND THE THREE PIRATES
Message-ID: <3914959C1BDB4AADA74601D29874EEDE@grandviewpatPC>

V. Putin was the top KGB agent in St. Petersburg in 1999. He also was the person American businessmen in that town went to see to get things accomplished, especially those things which were good for the Americans but bad for the Russians. He was man who could read the wind and in which way it was blowing.   When he went from this post to Head of Russia when appointed by Boris Yelstin, his first step was to travel  to Texas, and begin a dialogue with  G. Bush concerning the aid he would need to get Russia off his knees.  Most Russian's on the street spoke of him being a American in russian clothes.  The bars, Google "hungry duck" and the people on the streets of Moscow knew it too. But what were they to do the ruble was worthless and the America dollar was king.   They knew that Putin was the amercian candidate, and they in too could read the wind.. Not one VOTE was cast to elect him, not one.  With this history, and the knowledge that russian oil is shipped by tanker to Canada, refined into jet fuel, and shipped to every major airport on the east coast, I suggest that what you hear from every major  news outlet is MISINFORMATION.   If you think it is not I suggest you buy jet fuel futures as when that oil stops flowing, the cost of gas will hit 5 dollars a gallon and the cost of a flight will double.
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From atymes at gmail.com  Thu Mar  6 00:40:59 2014
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 16:40:59 -0800
Subject: [ExI] PUTIN AND THE THREE PIRATES
In-Reply-To: <3914959C1BDB4AADA74601D29874EEDE@grandviewpatPC>
References: <3914959C1BDB4AADA74601D29874EEDE@grandviewpatPC>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNTgbWRwVn8UxXdqVB5fTvXARer3Eg44T9mFvuBLy4omgw@mail.gmail.com>

All caps title + everything in one long paragraph = do not read.  Work on
your formatting and flow, to get your ideas across.
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From kellycoinguy at gmail.com  Thu Mar  6 14:44:34 2014
From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2014 07:44:34 -0700
Subject: [ExI] hard science
In-Reply-To: <5B729B8C-A9B6-43A0-81F9-D4B66C8D2E92@taramayastales.com>
References: <mailman.168.1392192461.319.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <52FBC8C4.6090606@yahoo.com>
 <5B729B8C-A9B6-43A0-81F9-D4B66C8D2E92@taramayastales.com>
Message-ID: <CAPy8RwYhztFUYSfS9PF_i9vfEtbQ6vwxFgv0crNTP_1brGopaA@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 6:29 PM, Tara Maya <tara at taramayastales.com> wrote:
>
> I don't see why. Amoebas are still wandering around in single-cell suits,
> despite being immensely older than 10,000 years, and despite the presence
> of our exalted selves.
>
> Not everything old is extinct. Not everything new displaces what it
> replaces.
>

Only 99% of the species that ever existed are extinct now. I'm sure people
will be different.

Oh yeah, we are different. We hog a tremendous amount of resources that a
higher intelligence will be able to use with greater utility if they aren't
feeding GigaApes. I'm sure it will all end well for us. No worries.

-Kelly
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From kellycoinguy at gmail.com  Thu Mar  6 14:54:05 2014
From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2014 07:54:05 -0700
Subject: [ExI] hard science
In-Reply-To: <983358330-26907@secure.ericade.net>
References: <CAO+xQEYx+A3d-th4csT6ghmxzt75LCgsw3FpuN215nc8bniOtA@mail.gmail.com>
 <983358330-26907@secure.ericade.net>
Message-ID: <CAPy8RwbieTyvPwMvS8SbUp+eSsyaCh1twCjJMiBqS9qCVU+8hw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Feb 16, 2014 at 5:29 AM, Anders Sandberg <anders at aleph.se> wrote:

> William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com> , 15/2/2014 7:29 PM:
>


> Yes, but good pleasures are not just about maximal dopamine in the medial
> forebrain bundle (or its counterpart). Just like the ancient Greeks noted
> that there is a great deal of difference between simple pleasures, complex
> pleasures and real excellence, we know that to really enjoy something it
> has to be meaningful and involve nontrivial components.
>
> Just consider the sensual possibilities with bodies that can remap their
> surfaces, change their shapes, experience things in new sensory ranges, and
> apply millennia of culture and style. (One of the best descriptions of
> posthuman eroticism and hedonism along these lines can be found in Scott
> Westerfeldt's "Evolution's Darling", where one of the main characters uses
> nanotechnology in the bedroom for good effect. Might not be everyone's cup
> of tea, but it is interesting as an example).
>

I think I'd just remap my sexual pleasure centers to the tips of my fingers
so that I enjoyed programming more. ;-)

-Kelly
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Thu Mar  6 15:48:15 2014
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2014 09:48:15 -0600
Subject: [ExI] hard science
In-Reply-To: <CAPy8RwbieTyvPwMvS8SbUp+eSsyaCh1twCjJMiBqS9qCVU+8hw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYx+A3d-th4csT6ghmxzt75LCgsw3FpuN215nc8bniOtA@mail.gmail.com>
 <983358330-26907@secure.ericade.net>
 <CAPy8RwbieTyvPwMvS8SbUp+eSsyaCh1twCjJMiBqS9qCVU+8hw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZsznOp2f-ZBhGxH9A_x8vwut_+8UPBMnwntGV+nDG_qA@mail.gmail.com>

Tangent re hard science:  just when are we going to stop typing?  What
primitive technology, esp. the keyboard (no, Dvorak didn't catch on did
it)!  Surely voice recognition programs are up to speed in many areas, but
just who uses them besides handicapped people (or challenged or whatever
the PC term is now) and those stupid computers that answer the helplines?
bill


On Thu, Mar 6, 2014 at 8:54 AM, Kelly Anderson <kellycoinguy at gmail.com>wrote:

> On Sun, Feb 16, 2014 at 5:29 AM, Anders Sandberg <anders at aleph.se> wrote:
>
>> William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com> , 15/2/2014 7:29 PM:
>>
>
>
>> Yes, but good pleasures are not just about maximal dopamine in the medial
>> forebrain bundle (or its counterpart). Just like the ancient Greeks noted
>> that there is a great deal of difference between simple pleasures, complex
>> pleasures and real excellence, we know that to really enjoy something it
>> has to be meaningful and involve nontrivial components.
>>
>> Just consider the sensual possibilities with bodies that can remap their
>> surfaces, change their shapes, experience things in new sensory ranges, and
>> apply millennia of culture and style. (One of the best descriptions of
>> posthuman eroticism and hedonism along these lines can be found in Scott
>> Westerfeldt's "Evolution's Darling", where one of the main characters uses
>> nanotechnology in the bedroom for good effect. Might not be everyone's cup
>> of tea, but it is interesting as an example).
>>
>
> I think I'd just remap my sexual pleasure centers to the tips of my
> fingers so that I enjoyed programming more. ;-)
>
> -Kelly
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From atymes at gmail.com  Thu Mar  6 20:02:34 2014
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2014 12:02:34 -0800
Subject: [ExI] hard science
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEZsznOp2f-ZBhGxH9A_x8vwut_+8UPBMnwntGV+nDG_qA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYx+A3d-th4csT6ghmxzt75LCgsw3FpuN215nc8bniOtA@mail.gmail.com>
 <983358330-26907@secure.ericade.net>
 <CAPy8RwbieTyvPwMvS8SbUp+eSsyaCh1twCjJMiBqS9qCVU+8hw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZsznOp2f-ZBhGxH9A_x8vwut_+8UPBMnwntGV+nDG_qA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNTkyzcQ8R-bVyKb-OLWd1=RvpBQ0B04fO9eUtLUqaa1Nw@mail.gmail.com>

On Mar 6, 2014 7:49 AM, "William Flynn Wallace" <foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Tangent re hard science:  just when are we going to stop typing?  What
primitive technology, esp. the keyboard (no, Dvorak didn't catch on did
it)!  Surely voice recognition programs are up to speed in many areas

Actually they are not.  Accuracy, and thus speed of input after reviewing
and correcting errors, is lower.  This is especially true when using them
to input things other than natural language (Control-X/C/V, Excel macros or
more involved programming, game/simulator/drone commands, et cetera).

Plus, using them is inherently much louder than with keyboards, which is
impractical enough in most situations where keyboards are used to remove
voice input from serious consideration.  And then there are the many cases
where the keyboard is used to interact with a computer while voice is used
to interact with another human, such as most customer service, where
dual-loading of voice is even less practical.

If you want to move past keyboards, find another channel not already being
used.  Direct neural input is one possibility, but that is waiting on it
getting cheaper, more sensitive, more accurate, and easier to (learn how to
competently) control.
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From steinberg.will at gmail.com  Fri Mar  7 02:09:50 2014
From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg)
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2014 20:09:50 -0600
Subject: [ExI] PUTIN AND THE THREE PIRATES
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNTgbWRwVn8UxXdqVB5fTvXARer3Eg44T9mFvuBLy4omgw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3914959C1BDB4AADA74601D29874EEDE@grandviewpatPC>
 <CALAdGNTgbWRwVn8UxXdqVB5fTvXARer3Eg44T9mFvuBLy4omgw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKrqSyHd7-hxYLC4+R62ZsSNDOe1Xab3LbiLVNcxiFkYf0AOOg@mail.gmail.com>

Well, I read it.
On Mar 5, 2014 6:43 PM, "Adrian Tymes" <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:

> All caps title + everything in one long paragraph = do not read.  Work on
> your formatting and flow, to get your ideas across.
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From bbenzai at yahoo.com  Fri Mar  7 20:11:13 2014
From: bbenzai at yahoo.com (Ben)
Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2014 20:11:13 +0000
Subject: [ExI] hard science
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1394193601.1902.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.1.1394193601.1902.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <531A27E1.1010102@yahoo.com>

Adrian Tymes wrote:

"If you want to move past keyboards, find another channel not already being
used.  Direct neural input is one possibility, but that is waiting on it
getting cheaper, more sensitive, more accurate, and easier to (learn how to
competently) control."

I think you mean "waiting for it to exist"!

I know there are lab experiments, and some people have electrodes that 
intermittently fry parts of their brain because that's better than 
suffering from whatever disease they have, but I wouldn't say that we 
actually have neural interfaces yet.  We're getting closer all the time, 
though <rubs hands together in anticipation>.

Ben Zaiboc


From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Mar  7 22:08:18 2014
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2014 16:08:18 -0600
Subject: [ExI] hard science
In-Reply-To: <531A27E1.1010102@yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.1.1394193601.1902.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <531A27E1.1010102@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYzZaoOO=mMp=KcKTumhhmr7wCtx8xVA9EYRECsfP42Qg@mail.gmail.com>

I have to ask this question:  what do you expect a neural interface to do?
Since AI isn't really here yet (?) all you could expect of the computer
would be to act as a reservoir of facts the user has not put into memory.
Since the brain can only handle a few facts at a time, and neurons can only
fire so fast, I fail to see the advantage.  And since we don't have AI this
is not going to aid creativity.
bill


On Fri, Mar 7, 2014 at 2:11 PM, Ben <bbenzai at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Adrian Tymes wrote:
>
> "If you want to move past keyboards, find another channel not already being
> used.  Direct neural input is one possibility, but that is waiting on it
> getting cheaper, more sensitive, more accurate, and easier to (learn how to
> competently) control."
>
> I think you mean "waiting for it to exist"!
>
> I know there are lab experiments, and some people have electrodes that
> intermittently fry parts of their brain because that's better than
> suffering from whatever disease they have, but I wouldn't say that we
> actually have neural interfaces yet.  We're getting closer all the time,
> though <rubs hands together in anticipation>.
>
> Ben Zaiboc
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From atymes at gmail.com  Fri Mar  7 22:47:46 2014
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2014 14:47:46 -0800
Subject: [ExI] hard science
In-Reply-To: <531A27E1.1010102@yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.1.1394193601.1902.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <531A27E1.1010102@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNSy1OecoDY1U=vVg6DrvajVrbTADC8vMAp1gLeRw_m2+Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Mar 7, 2014 12:25 PM, "Ben" <bbenzai at yahoo.com> wrote:
> I think you mean "waiting for it to exist"

The basic thought, yes.  This being the Extropians list, I felt it
appropriate to give some detail on exactly what to improve to take it from
lab to general availability.  ;)
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From atymes at gmail.com  Fri Mar  7 22:51:18 2014
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2014 14:51:18 -0800
Subject: [ExI] hard science
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYzZaoOO=mMp=KcKTumhhmr7wCtx8xVA9EYRECsfP42Qg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1394193601.1902.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <531A27E1.1010102@yahoo.com>
 <CAO+xQEYzZaoOO=mMp=KcKTumhhmr7wCtx8xVA9EYRECsfP42Qg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNQcgjs4Y5Kh4=_AfscWwj0nxu65XB3=5xSVYmtFGxb0Hg@mail.gmail.com>

On Mar 7, 2014 2:10 PM, "William Flynn Wallace" <foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
> I have to ask this question:  what do you expect a neural interface to do?

Be a faster replacement for keyboards and display monitors, for one.  Also
enable radiotelepathy and more convenient access to programs to augment
natural cognition.
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From bbenzai at yahoo.com  Sat Mar  8 14:08:33 2014
From: bbenzai at yahoo.com (Ben)
Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2014 14:08:33 +0000
Subject: [ExI] hard science
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1394280001.19808.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.1.1394280001.19808.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <531B2461.5010002@yahoo.com>

William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com> asked:
 > I have to ask this question:  what do you expect a neural interface 
to do?

The literal answer to the question is simple:  Transduce neural signals 
to and from electrical (or possibly optronic) ones, in a reliable 
fashion without any adverse affects on the living tissue or the 
technological components, and without disrupting the normal functions of 
the organic parts.  We're still a long way from that, but progress is 
being made.

But I think your question was more along the lines of:  "What good would 
a neural interface be?", and of course that's an open question, but here 
are a few answers:

A fairly modest application would be to connect specific brain regions 
to external circuitry for control of, for example, prosthetic limbs, 
non-biological organs, new sensory equipment, etc.

Taking the idea further, and once the technology is worked out, you 
could have very fine-grained interfaces that can talk to individual 
neurons and feed the signals into/from detailed virtual-reality models 
of the body or of parts of the body, so that your brain could 'drive' 
the virtual body.  This would be good for full-immersion VR experiences, 
and also for providing a control interface for new bodies.  Bodies which 
could be anything from fully virtual to fully physical, any mix of the 
two, and any mix of biological/technological for the physical side.

This will be difficult to do, and involve massive arrays of interfaces, 
connecting to tens of millions of nerve-endings, but would be 
tremendously useful.  You could, for example, take the central nervous 
system and transplant it into a different body that was a hybrid of 
biological and synthetic parts, and control it through a communications 
grid linked to the interface.  You could then control virtually every 
aspect of such a body (not to mention that the body could be designed 
and built to be vastly better than a standard biological one).  And, 
yes, that's getting a bit off-topic, but you can see the usefulness (or 
rather necessity) of neural interfaces in a scenario like that.

All of the above presupposes that the biological brain will remain as it 
is, producing your mind in the usual way, but there's more:

Taking things further - and later on, I imagine -, neural interfaces 
would be useful in the process of 'gradual uploading', where rather than 
replacing parts of the brain, or 'scanning' it, which are the usual 
uploading ideas, we instead expand the mind into non-biological brain 
machinery over a period of time, so that eventually the original 
biological brain becomes only a small (and ultimately redundant) part of 
what produces the mind.  At some point, you'd be able to ditch the 
original brain without even noticing it.

Lots of assumptions there, but I don't think there's anything that's 
theoretically infeasible.


Ben Zaiboc


From spike66 at att.net  Sun Mar  9 00:44:01 2014
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2014 16:44:01 -0800
Subject: [ExI] hard science
In-Reply-To: <CAPy8RwbieTyvPwMvS8SbUp+eSsyaCh1twCjJMiBqS9qCVU+8hw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYx+A3d-th4csT6ghmxzt75LCgsw3FpuN215nc8bniOtA@mail.gmail.com>
 <983358330-26907@secure.ericade.net>
 <CAPy8RwbieTyvPwMvS8SbUp+eSsyaCh1twCjJMiBqS9qCVU+8hw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <001001cf3b30$ad2955b0$077c0110$@att.net>

 

 

From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Kelly Anderson



>.I think I'd just remap my sexual pleasure centers to the tips of my
fingers so that I enjoyed programming more. ;-) -Kelly

 

 

No way.  If I did that, I would waste too much time typing off.

 

spike

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From cetico.iconoclasta at gmail.com  Mon Mar 10 13:20:10 2014
From: cetico.iconoclasta at gmail.com (Henrique Moraes Machado)
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2014 10:20:10 -0300
Subject: [ExI] RES:  guitar playing robot
In-Reply-To: <021e01cf365d$9021daf0$b06590d0$@att.net>
References: <021e01cf365d$9021daf0$b06590d0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <010101cf3c63$77cce7e0$6766b7a0$@gmail.com>

<spike>
.The song is called "Sad Robot Goes Funny."
Squarepusher says the piece's two halves mirror the robots' grief that their
fans view them as mere "entertainment machines." Then, left alone at the end
of the day, "They think back to being young robots, before they were
employed in the sphere of public entertainment, and remember the silly
antics they used to get up to."

http://singularityhub.com/2014/03/01/squarepusher-explores-emotional-machine
-music-with-78-fingered-robot-guitarist/
</spike>

Cool concept. Good execution. Atrocious music that goes nowhere. But I don't
like fusion jazz. It sounds to me more like instrumental masturbation than
music.




From spike66 at att.net  Mon Mar 10 14:06:04 2014
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2014 07:06:04 -0700
Subject: [ExI] RES:  guitar playing robot
In-Reply-To: <010101cf3c63$77cce7e0$6766b7a0$@gmail.com>
References: <021e01cf365d$9021daf0$b06590d0$@att.net>
 <010101cf3c63$77cce7e0$6766b7a0$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <13e301cf3c69$e0e461d0$a2ad2570$@att.net>


>... On Behalf Of Henrique Moraes Machado
...

>>...http://singularityhub.com/2014/03/01/squarepusher-explores-emotional-ma
chine
-music-with-78-fingered-robot-guitarist/


>...Cool concept. Good execution. Atrocious music that goes nowhere. But I
don't like fusion jazz. It sounds to me more like instrumental masturbation
than music.
_______________________________________________

COOL you can do that with musical instruments?  So many years, all I did
with them is make music.  Tragic waste.

spike



From spike66 at att.net  Mon Mar 10 15:05:06 2014
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2014 08:05:06 -0700
Subject: [ExI] RES:  guitar playing robot
In-Reply-To: <13e301cf3c69$e0e461d0$a2ad2570$@att.net>
References: <021e01cf365d$9021daf0$b06590d0$@att.net>
 <010101cf3c63$77cce7e0$6766b7a0$@gmail.com>
 <13e301cf3c69$e0e461d0$a2ad2570$@att.net>
Message-ID: <13ed01cf3c72$2001c940$60055bc0$@att.net>


>... On Behalf Of spike
Subject: Re: [ExI] RES: guitar playing robot


>... On Behalf Of Henrique Moraes Machado
...

>>>...http://singularityhub.com/2014/03/01/squarepusher-explores-emotiona
>>l-machine-music-with-78-fingered-robot-guitarist/


>>...Cool concept. Good execution. Atrocious music that goes nowhere. But 
>I don't like fusion jazz. It sounds to me more like instrumental
masturbation than music.  Henrique
_______________________________________________

>...COOL you can do that with musical instruments?  So many years, all I did
with them is make music.  Tragic waste.  spike

_______________________________________________

Oh wait, better idea: piano, extended jazz improv of some sort, have an
assistant pump the pedal while an accomplished musician works the keys.
Record the results.  Can the listener tell when the player (the one on the
keyboard) is having the...um... maximum musical experience?  Can he (or
possibly even she) maintain the tempo?  Does the key signature change?  What
key is best for that?  What tempo?  What rhythm?

Now that I think about it, the idea is so obvious it must have been done
before, a long time ago.  Perhaps that is how we got jazz to start with:
someone was playing Bach or Beethoven and had an idea.

spike  



From cetico.iconoclasta at gmail.com  Mon Mar 10 17:19:41 2014
From: cetico.iconoclasta at gmail.com (Henrique Moraes Machado)
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2014 14:19:41 -0300
Subject: [ExI] RES:  RES:  guitar playing robot
In-Reply-To: <13e301cf3c69$e0e461d0$a2ad2570$@att.net>
References: <021e01cf365d$9021daf0$b06590d0$@att.net>
 <010101cf3c63$77cce7e0$6766b7a0$@gmail.com>
 <13e301cf3c69$e0e461d0$a2ad2570$@att.net>
Message-ID: <013b01cf3c84$ed7dfbc0$c879f340$@gmail.com>

<spike>
COOL you can do that with musical instruments?  So many years, all I did
with them is make music.  Tragic waste.
</spike> 

Several musicians do exactly that. Joe Satriani, Steve Vai to name just two.

They are extremely skilled, but their music is tripe. And modern jazz...
pure masturbation. But wake me up when a robot can play the solos from Pink
Floyd's "Time" and "Money".



From cetico.iconoclasta at gmail.com  Mon Mar 10 17:23:48 2014
From: cetico.iconoclasta at gmail.com (Henrique Moraes Machado)
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2014 14:23:48 -0300
Subject: [ExI] RES:  RES:  guitar playing robot
In-Reply-To: <13ed01cf3c72$2001c940$60055bc0$@att.net>
References: <021e01cf365d$9021daf0$b06590d0$@att.net>
 <010101cf3c63$77cce7e0$6766b7a0$@gmail.com>
 <13e301cf3c69$e0e461d0$a2ad2570$@att.net>
 <13ed01cf3c72$2001c940$60055bc0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <013c01cf3c85$80e82c50$82b884f0$@gmail.com>

<spike>
Oh wait, better idea: piano, extended jazz improv of some sort, have an
assistant
pump the pedal while an accomplished musician works the keys.
Record the results.  Can the listener tell when the player (the one on the
keyboard) is having the...um... maximum musical experience?  Can he (or
possibly
even she) maintain the tempo?  Does the key signature change?  What key is
best for
that?  What tempo?  What rhythm?
 
Now that I think about it, the idea is so obvious it must have been done
before, a long
time ago.  Perhaps that is how we got jazz to start with:
someone was playing Bach or Beethoven and had an idea.
</spike>

Now THAT I would like to see. 



From sparge at gmail.com  Mon Mar 10 17:27:06 2014
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2014 13:27:06 -0400
Subject: [ExI] RES: RES: guitar playing robot
In-Reply-To: <013b01cf3c84$ed7dfbc0$c879f340$@gmail.com>
References: <021e01cf365d$9021daf0$b06590d0$@att.net>
 <010101cf3c63$77cce7e0$6766b7a0$@gmail.com>
 <13e301cf3c69$e0e461d0$a2ad2570$@att.net>
 <013b01cf3c84$ed7dfbc0$c879f340$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2fZZYPNtJiOq63zBsAxwPRKW7-kAbpx_k44fUHrcjH66Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Mar 10, 2014 at 1:19 PM, Henrique Moraes Machado <
cetico.iconoclasta at gmail.com> wrote:

> But wake me up when a robot can play the solos from Pink
> Floyd's "Time" and "Money".
>

Wake me up when a robot can create a solo worth listening to.

-Dave
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From spike66 at att.net  Mon Mar 10 17:40:04 2014
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2014 10:40:04 -0700
Subject: [ExI] RES:  RES:  guitar playing robot
In-Reply-To: <013c01cf3c85$80e82c50$82b884f0$@gmail.com>
References: <021e01cf365d$9021daf0$b06590d0$@att.net>
 <010101cf3c63$77cce7e0$6766b7a0$@gmail.com>
 <13e301cf3c69$e0e461d0$a2ad2570$@att.net>
 <13ed01cf3c72$2001c940$60055bc0$@att.net>
 <013c01cf3c85$80e82c50$82b884f0$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <146f01cf3c87$c6263d00$5272b700$@att.net>

>... On Behalf Of Henrique Moraes Machado

>>...  Can the listener tell when the player (the one on the
keyboard) is having the...um... maximum musical experience?  Can he (or
possibly even she) maintain the tempo?  Does the key signature change?  What
key is best for that?  What tempo?  What rhythm?  Now that I think about it,
the idea is so obvious it must have been done before, a long time ago.
Perhaps that is how we got jazz to start with:
someone was playing Bach or Beethoven and had an idea.
</spike>

>...Now THAT I would like to see. 

_______________________________________________

Hmmm, I am not sure I would want to *see* it exactly.

I did some historical research and discovered that this technique has been
done over 200 years ago, and it resulted in a well-known piece (of music I
mean.)  Beethoven had been composing and left the studio at the end of the
day.  His teenage son by an estranged ex-wife asked to use the piano so he
and his girlfriend could do some experimental composition.  Permission
granted, but the next day Ludwig came in and discovered the underside of his
piano was besmirched.  He was irate at this outrage of course and pounded
out Beethoven's Fifth Symphony while in a burning fury at the teen
miscreants.  

A little known fact is that unlike his other works and other classical
pieces, Beethoven's Fifth has words!  If you google on it in YouTube for
instance, you can almost hear the words being sung by Beethoven as he sang
them in full-throated furious enthusiasm.  It is the same four words, over
and over, which explains the well-known theme:  
dant dant dant daaaaaaaaa...  dant dant dant daaaaaaaa... etc.  

The words are: Son of a biiiiiiiitch...  Son of a biiiiiiitch...

This is quite understandable of course; one could scarcely blame him for his
anger.  Image if you were a well-known composer and came in to find that
revolting stuff on the underside of your piano.

spike



From giulio at gmail.com  Wed Mar 12 08:26:53 2014
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2014 09:26:53 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Thoughts on Ethereum?
Message-ID: <CAKTCJyeMzpV+E7fMCsGOt8-MGn2AMgF6T2ozfUHv=0zOE5mmdQ@mail.gmail.com>

Take a look at https://www.ethereum.org/

At a first glance it seems a powerful enabler for a social singularity
and a candidate Next Big Thing. I can even see applications to AI.


From crw at crw.io  Wed Mar 12 05:20:15 2014
From: crw at crw.io (crw)
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2014 22:20:15 -0700
Subject: [ExI] RES:  guitar playing robot
In-Reply-To: <13ed01cf3c72$2001c940$60055bc0$@att.net>
References: <021e01cf365d$9021daf0$b06590d0$@att.net>
 <010101cf3c63$77cce7e0$6766b7a0$@gmail.com>
 <13e301cf3c69$e0e461d0$a2ad2570$@att.net>
 <13ed01cf3c72$2001c940$60055bc0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <531FEE8F.8000706@crw.io>

Everything old is new again:
http://boingboing.net/2013/02/20/insanely-frenetic-music-compos.html

-c.


On 3/10/2014 8:05 AM, spike wrote:
>> ... On Behalf Of spike
> Subject: Re: [ExI] RES: guitar playing robot
>
>
>> ... On Behalf Of Henrique Moraes Machado
> ...
>
>>>> ...http://singularityhub.com/2014/03/01/squarepusher-explores-emotiona
>>> l-machine-music-with-78-fingered-robot-guitarist/
>
>>> ...Cool concept. Good execution. Atrocious music that goes nowhere. But
>> I don't like fusion jazz. It sounds to me more like instrumental
> masturbation than music.  Henrique
> _______________________________________________
>
>> ...COOL you can do that with musical instruments?  So many years, all I did
> with them is make music.  Tragic waste.  spike
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Oh wait, better idea: piano, extended jazz improv of some sort, have an
> assistant pump the pedal while an accomplished musician works the keys.
> Record the results.  Can the listener tell when the player (the one on the
> keyboard) is having the...um... maximum musical experience?  Can he (or
> possibly even she) maintain the tempo?  Does the key signature change?  What
> key is best for that?  What tempo?  What rhythm?
>
> Now that I think about it, the idea is so obvious it must have been done
> before, a long time ago.  Perhaps that is how we got jazz to start with:
> someone was playing Bach or Beethoven and had an idea.
>
> spike
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat



From atymes at gmail.com  Wed Mar 12 18:31:52 2014
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2014 11:31:52 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Thoughts on Ethereum?
In-Reply-To: <CAKTCJyeMzpV+E7fMCsGOt8-MGn2AMgF6T2ozfUHv=0zOE5mmdQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKTCJyeMzpV+E7fMCsGOt8-MGn2AMgF6T2ozfUHv=0zOE5mmdQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNQTeiHNFc=0ZSEZwBuek00vzErJj8crfiNh=Jc7YTYOig@mail.gmail.com>

It's yet another solution looking for a problem at the moment.

Let me know once they list specific things they can do better than existing
alternatives.  Right now they just list general capabilities, and that's
been shown insufficient to achieve significant use by itself.
On Mar 12, 2014 1:28 AM, "Giulio Prisco" <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:

> Take a look at https://www.ethereum.org/
>
> At a first glance it seems a powerful enabler for a social singularity
> and a candidate Next Big Thing. I can even see applications to AI.
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From protokol2020 at gmail.com  Wed Mar 12 22:23:14 2014
From: protokol2020 at gmail.com (Tomaz Kristan)
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2014 23:23:14 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Thoughts on Ethereum?
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNQTeiHNFc=0ZSEZwBuek00vzErJj8crfiNh=Jc7YTYOig@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKTCJyeMzpV+E7fMCsGOt8-MGn2AMgF6T2ozfUHv=0zOE5mmdQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQTeiHNFc=0ZSEZwBuek00vzErJj8crfiNh=Jc7YTYOig@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALMrAFRyGfUMjKMq9m6P0EBsEo00LKv52F=u7YGv_4onj4WH-g@mail.gmail.com>

I thought, something like this will be only possible using quantum
contracts. But I was only half right. It may be possible with the classical
cryptography, too!


On Wed, Mar 12, 2014 at 7:31 PM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:

> It's yet another solution looking for a problem at the moment.
>
> Let me know once they list specific things they can do better than
> existing alternatives.  Right now they just list general capabilities, and
> that's been shown insufficient to achieve significant use by itself.
> On Mar 12, 2014 1:28 AM, "Giulio Prisco" <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Take a look at https://www.ethereum.org/
>>
>> At a first glance it seems a powerful enabler for a social singularity
>> and a candidate Next Big Thing. I can even see applications to AI.
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>


-- 
https://protokol2020.wordpress.com/
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From giulio at gmail.com  Fri Mar 14 06:30:44 2014
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2014 07:30:44 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Thoughts on Ethereum?
In-Reply-To: <CALMrAFRyGfUMjKMq9m6P0EBsEo00LKv52F=u7YGv_4onj4WH-g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKTCJyeMzpV+E7fMCsGOt8-MGn2AMgF6T2ozfUHv=0zOE5mmdQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQTeiHNFc=0ZSEZwBuek00vzErJj8crfiNh=Jc7YTYOig@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALMrAFRyGfUMjKMq9m6P0EBsEo00LKv52F=u7YGv_4onj4WH-g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKTCJyfgmxJDsYmzeAA5gW=og3N7Aq7Q-BMUSX5Yxj034Sthwg@mail.gmail.com>

"Adrian - It's yet another solution looking for a problem at the moment."

Well, it's a platform, it may open ways to develop many solution to
many problems. For example, Ethereum seems the ideal platform to
develop idea futures and general prediction markets.

A PAM http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Policy_Analysis_Market built on
Ethereum would permit betting real money (more precisely, cryptocoins
that can be concerted to real money) anonymously.

Robin, are you here and can you comment?

On Wed, Mar 12, 2014 at 11:23 PM, Tomaz Kristan <protokol2020 at gmail.com> wrote:
> I thought, something like this will be only possible using quantum
> contracts. But I was only half right. It may be possible with the classical
> cryptography, too!
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 12, 2014 at 7:31 PM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> It's yet another solution looking for a problem at the moment.
>>
>> Let me know once they list specific things they can do better than
>> existing alternatives.  Right now they just list general capabilities, and
>> that's been shown insufficient to achieve significant use by itself.
>>
>> On Mar 12, 2014 1:28 AM, "Giulio Prisco" <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Take a look at https://www.ethereum.org/
>>>
>>> At a first glance it seems a powerful enabler for a social singularity
>>> and a candidate Next Big Thing. I can even see applications to AI.
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
>
>
>
> --
> https://protokol2020.wordpress.com/
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>


From atymes at gmail.com  Fri Mar 14 07:03:27 2014
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2014 00:03:27 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Thoughts on Ethereum?
In-Reply-To: <CAKTCJyfgmxJDsYmzeAA5gW=og3N7Aq7Q-BMUSX5Yxj034Sthwg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKTCJyeMzpV+E7fMCsGOt8-MGn2AMgF6T2ozfUHv=0zOE5mmdQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQTeiHNFc=0ZSEZwBuek00vzErJj8crfiNh=Jc7YTYOig@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALMrAFRyGfUMjKMq9m6P0EBsEo00LKv52F=u7YGv_4onj4WH-g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTCJyfgmxJDsYmzeAA5gW=og3N7Aq7Q-BMUSX5Yxj034Sthwg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNT=K+orQitEcdU6TRpqPFNHddyFQ_zOLdwpVF03pw8PYw@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 11:30 PM, Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:

> "Adrian - It's yet another solution looking for a problem at the moment."
>
> Well, it's a platform, it may open ways to develop many solution to
> many problems.


You do not appear to be familiar with that phrase, so I shall explain.

A "solution looking for a problem" is a capability to do something, but it
is ill-defined or not defined exactly when and why someone would use it.
This results in little to no thought given to existing alternatives, and
how to make this new capability improve upon them.

"People can use it for contract-based programming" does not suffice,
because "contract-based programming" is the new capability this brings.
That's basically a circular definition.

"People can use this to write programs that don't need to run on a central
server" is better, but then you need to define when and why people would do
that.  (And there are already things that can do this.  How does Ethereum
compare to those?)

The providers seem to be unaware that there are alternatives.  This almost
always means that the new offering sucks, and usually means that it could
be improved by incorporating best practices from existing alternatives -
possibly to better than them, if the new offering does anything better.

(Thus: it is not my job to find and list alternatives to Ethereum.  It is
the job of those who promote Ethereum.  "Burden of proof" and all that.
Notably, they must find the closest ones that most decrease the perceived
uniqueness and value of Ethereum.  This can be hard to accept!  But if they
do not, it will be done - mostly silently - by the people they try to
promote it to, they will fail to gain much traction, and they will lack the
data to see why they failed.)

http://dondodge.typepad.com/the_next_big_thing/2005/10/solutions_looki.htmldoes
a good job of explaining "solution looking for a problem" further.
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From giulio at gmail.com  Fri Mar 14 07:06:16 2014
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2014 08:06:16 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Thoughts on Ethereum?
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNT=K+orQitEcdU6TRpqPFNHddyFQ_zOLdwpVF03pw8PYw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKTCJyeMzpV+E7fMCsGOt8-MGn2AMgF6T2ozfUHv=0zOE5mmdQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQTeiHNFc=0ZSEZwBuek00vzErJj8crfiNh=Jc7YTYOig@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALMrAFRyGfUMjKMq9m6P0EBsEo00LKv52F=u7YGv_4onj4WH-g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTCJyfgmxJDsYmzeAA5gW=og3N7Aq7Q-BMUSX5Yxj034Sthwg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNT=K+orQitEcdU6TRpqPFNHddyFQ_zOLdwpVF03pw8PYw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKTCJyd-6onG3n4jp84TW1o_4Jxc-P_ow2mJmU5h0iTOuMaQnw@mail.gmail.com>

Adrian, you sound like a problem looking for a solution ;-) ;-)

On Fri, Mar 14, 2014 at 8:03 AM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 11:30 PM, Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> "Adrian - It's yet another solution looking for a problem at the moment."
>>
>> Well, it's a platform, it may open ways to develop many solution to
>> many problems.
>
>
> You do not appear to be familiar with that phrase, so I shall explain.
>
> A "solution looking for a problem" is a capability to do something, but it
> is ill-defined or not defined exactly when and why someone would use it.
> This results in little to no thought given to existing alternatives, and how
> to make this new capability improve upon them.
>
> "People can use it for contract-based programming" does not suffice, because
> "contract-based programming" is the new capability this brings.  That's
> basically a circular definition.
>
> "People can use this to write programs that don't need to run on a central
> server" is better, but then you need to define when and why people would do
> that.  (And there are already things that can do this.  How does Ethereum
> compare to those?)
>
> The providers seem to be unaware that there are alternatives.  This almost
> always means that the new offering sucks, and usually means that it could be
> improved by incorporating best practices from existing alternatives -
> possibly to better than them, if the new offering does anything better.
>
> (Thus: it is not my job to find and list alternatives to Ethereum.  It is
> the job of those who promote Ethereum.  "Burden of proof" and all that.
> Notably, they must find the closest ones that most decrease the perceived
> uniqueness and value of Ethereum.  This can be hard to accept!  But if they
> do not, it will be done - mostly silently - by the people they try to
> promote it to, they will fail to gain much traction, and they will lack the
> data to see why they failed.)
>
> http://dondodge.typepad.com/the_next_big_thing/2005/10/solutions_looki.html
> does a good job of explaining "solution looking for a problem" further.
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>


From atymes at gmail.com  Fri Mar 14 07:08:20 2014
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2014 00:08:20 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Thoughts on Ethereum?
In-Reply-To: <CAKTCJyd-6onG3n4jp84TW1o_4Jxc-P_ow2mJmU5h0iTOuMaQnw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKTCJyeMzpV+E7fMCsGOt8-MGn2AMgF6T2ozfUHv=0zOE5mmdQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQTeiHNFc=0ZSEZwBuek00vzErJj8crfiNh=Jc7YTYOig@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALMrAFRyGfUMjKMq9m6P0EBsEo00LKv52F=u7YGv_4onj4WH-g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTCJyfgmxJDsYmzeAA5gW=og3N7Aq7Q-BMUSX5Yxj034Sthwg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNT=K+orQitEcdU6TRpqPFNHddyFQ_zOLdwpVF03pw8PYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTCJyd-6onG3n4jp84TW1o_4Jxc-P_ow2mJmU5h0iTOuMaQnw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNRh3Nnxz_+59qi_JzpgAY7Lp+0wNNxrE0QiHMiknLVa_A@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Mar 14, 2014 at 12:06 AM, Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:

> Adrian, you sound like a problem looking for a solution ;-) ;-)
>

I have many problems looking for solutions.  Curt dismissals of serious
explanations is one of them.  :P
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From pharos at gmail.com  Fri Mar 14 11:16:27 2014
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2014 11:16:27 +0000
Subject: [ExI] AI extinction risk
Message-ID: <CAL_armjBNFDANsZcSD-fVH2rAt7=uJooK5S_JdfY4ZjJXHax7Q@mail.gmail.com>

Interesting article from Stuart Armstrong, Research Fellow at the
Future of Humanity Institute at Oxford University.

<http://thenextweb.com/insider/2014/03/08/ai-could-kill-all-meet-man-takes-risk-seriously/>

Artificial Intelligence could kill us all. Meet the man who takes that
risk seriously.
By Martin Bryant, Saturday, 8 Mar 2014.

"One of the things that makes AI risk scary is that it's one of the
few that is genuinely an extinction risk if it were to go bad. With a
lot of other risks, it's actually surprisingly hard to get to an
extinction risk," Armstrong explains. "You take a nuclear war for
instance, that will kill only a relatively small proportion of the
planet. You add radiation fallout, slightly more, you add the nuclear
winter you can maybe get 90%, 95% - 99% if you really stretch it and
take extreme scenarios - but it's really hard to get to the human race
ending. The same goes for pandemics, even at their more virulent.

"The thing is if AI went bad, and 95% of humans were killed then the
remaining 5% would be extinguished soon after. So despite its
uncertainty, it has certain features of very bad risks."
------------------


One of his points that I find very significant is -

The first impact of that technology, Armstrong argues, is near total
unemployment. "You could take an AI if it was of human-level
intelligence, copy it a hundred times, train it in a hundred different
professions, copy those a hundred times and you have ten thousand
high-level employees in a hundred professions, trained out maybe in
the course of a week. Or you could copy it more and have millions of
employees... And if they were truly superhuman you'd get performance
beyond what I've just described."
------------

To me this looks like a very strong near-time prediction. It doesn't
even need superhuman AI to produce a lot of unemployment.
Globalization has been described as 'Using third world slave labour to
produce cheap goods to sell to our first world unemployed population'.

When robot machinery replaces even the slave labour and computer tech
replaces professional workers, then the consumer society is finished.
People without an income don't buy enough stuff to maintain the
current system.

Central banks can cover up the problem temporarily by issuing more and
more debt, to enable consumers to continue consuming. But a big system
change seems inevitable.


BillK


From anders at aleph.se  Fri Mar 14 14:02:12 2014
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2014 15:02:12 +0100
Subject: [ExI] AI extinction risk
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armjBNFDANsZcSD-fVH2rAt7=uJooK5S_JdfY4ZjJXHax7Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3234002068-24033@secure.ericade.net>

BillK <pharos at gmail.com> , 14/3/2014 12:22 PM:

To me this looks like a very strong near-time prediction. It doesn't 
even need superhuman AI to produce a lot of unemployment. 
Yes. Yesterday Carl Frey (economist, also from FHI) and Michael Osborne (machine learning) gave a good talk about it:http://www.oxfordmartin.ox.ac.uk/videos/view/375

Globalization has been described as 'Using third world slave labour to 
produce cheap goods to sell to our first world unemployed population'. 
Which is of course not a good description, given how the income of wealth of the developing world has been growing over the past decades. Check Rosling's graphs.
But a big system change seems inevitable. 
Yes. The current system is *always* getting replaced, but sometimes in a more dramatic fashion.?
A rather unsettling argument is?http://qz.com/185945/drones-are-about-to-upheave-society-in-a-way-we-havent-seen-in-700-years/This notices that some basic assumptions about how our societies work over the past centuries might have been based on the limitations of concentration and control of force. Not entirely convinced he is 100% right, but clearly even getting the option of guaranteed loyal robot armies (that can be manufactured by having capital rather than labour) is going to change things a lot. It is a bit like Drexler's considerations in?http://e-drexler.com/d/06/00/EOC/EOC_Chapter_11.html?("But with advanced technology, states need not control people - they could instead simply discard people. ") Basically, with enough automation one could amplify power distances a lot.?
The AI disaster scenario splits into two cases: the good old "superintelligence out of control" we have spent much effort at handling, and the "AI empowered people out of control" scenario, which is a tricky 'thick' socioeconomical problem.?

Anders Sandberg, Future of Humanity Institute Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University
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From rhanson at gmu.edu  Fri Mar 14 13:03:29 2014
From: rhanson at gmu.edu (Robin D Hanson)
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2014 13:03:29 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Thoughts on Ethereum?
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNT=K+orQitEcdU6TRpqPFNHddyFQ_zOLdwpVF03pw8PYw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKTCJyeMzpV+E7fMCsGOt8-MGn2AMgF6T2ozfUHv=0zOE5mmdQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQTeiHNFc=0ZSEZwBuek00vzErJj8crfiNh=Jc7YTYOig@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALMrAFRyGfUMjKMq9m6P0EBsEo00LKv52F=u7YGv_4onj4WH-g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTCJyfgmxJDsYmzeAA5gW=og3N7Aq7Q-BMUSX5Yxj034Sthwg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNT=K+orQitEcdU6TRpqPFNHddyFQ_zOLdwpVF03pw8PYw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <DC33C0B3-09C8-44EC-9177-F432800801F7@gmu.edu>

On Mar 14, 2014, at 3:03 AM, Adrian Tymes wrote:
http://dondodge.typepad.com/the_next_big_thing/2005/10/solutions_looki.html does a good job of explaining "solution looking for a problem" further.

That link says:
I have talked to hundreds of entrepreneurs over the years about new ideas and starting a company.  I have found that when they have worked in the industry and have lived the problem they are trying to solve, they have a much better shot at success.

Amen.

Robin Hanson  http://hanson.gmu.edu
Res. Assoc., Future of Humanity Inst., Oxford Univ.
Assoc. Professor, George Mason University
Chief Scientist, Consensus Point
MSN 1D3, Carow Hall, Fairfax VA 22030
703-993-2326 FAX: 703-993-2323



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From spike66 at att.net  Fri Mar 14 14:30:03 2014
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2014 07:30:03 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Thoughts on Ethereum?
In-Reply-To: <CAKTCJyfgmxJDsYmzeAA5gW=og3N7Aq7Q-BMUSX5Yxj034Sthwg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKTCJyeMzpV+E7fMCsGOt8-MGn2AMgF6T2ozfUHv=0zOE5mmdQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQTeiHNFc=0ZSEZwBuek00vzErJj8crfiNh=Jc7YTYOig@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALMrAFRyGfUMjKMq9m6P0EBsEo00LKv52F=u7YGv_4onj4WH-g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTCJyfgmxJDsYmzeAA5gW=og3N7Aq7Q-BMUSX5Yxj034Sthwg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00f301cf3f91$e42806f0$ac7814d0$@att.net>


>... On Behalf Of Giulio Prisco

Subject: Re: [ExI] Thoughts on Ethereum?

>>..."Adrian - It's yet another solution looking for a problem at the
moment."

>...Well, it's a platform, it may open ways to develop many solution to many
problems. For example, Ethereum seems the ideal platform to develop idea
futures and general prediction markets...Giulio



A solution without a problem is a good description of the WWW in 1989.  It
ended up solving a ton of problems we didn't know we had.  It had intended
consequences: a chain reaction of other solutions.

spike



From spike66 at att.net  Fri Mar 14 15:35:47 2014
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2014 08:35:47 -0700
Subject: [ExI] aaaahnold crushes it
Message-ID: <014d01cf3f9b$13420bd0$39c62370$@att.net>

 

We need to figure out how to somehow crush ageing and death:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4lnVx2BAYk

 

spike

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From rhanson at gmu.edu  Fri Mar 14 13:01:36 2014
From: rhanson at gmu.edu (Robin D Hanson)
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2014 13:01:36 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Thoughts on Ethereum?
In-Reply-To: <CAKTCJyfgmxJDsYmzeAA5gW=og3N7Aq7Q-BMUSX5Yxj034Sthwg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKTCJyeMzpV+E7fMCsGOt8-MGn2AMgF6T2ozfUHv=0zOE5mmdQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQTeiHNFc=0ZSEZwBuek00vzErJj8crfiNh=Jc7YTYOig@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALMrAFRyGfUMjKMq9m6P0EBsEo00LKv52F=u7YGv_4onj4WH-g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTCJyfgmxJDsYmzeAA5gW=og3N7Aq7Q-BMUSX5Yxj034Sthwg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9CE30580-A579-4F89-A5CC-A00D869AD3DE@gmu.edu>

It "would" if it became popular and widely used enough that sufficient supporting 
infrastructure was available, and it managed to resist state efforts to enforce
rules against using it for illegal activities. Those are big ifs.

On Mar 14, 2014, at 2:30 AM, Giulio Prisco wrote:
> "Adrian - It's yet another solution looking for a problem at the moment."
> 
> Well, it's a platform, it may open ways to develop many solution to
> many problems. For example, Ethereum seems the ideal platform to
> develop idea futures and general prediction markets.
> 
> A PAM http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Policy_Analysis_Market built on
> Ethereum would permit betting real money (more precisely, cryptocoins
> that can be concerted to real money) anonymously.
> 
> Robin, are you here and can you comment?
> 
> On Wed, Mar 12, 2014 at 11:23 PM, Tomaz Kristan <protokol2020 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> I thought, something like this will be only possible using quantum
>> contracts. But I was only half right. It may be possible with the classical
>> cryptography, too!
>> 
>> 
>> On Wed, Mar 12, 2014 at 7:31 PM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> It's yet another solution looking for a problem at the moment.
>>> 
>>> Let me know once they list specific things they can do better than
>>> existing alternatives.  Right now they just list general capabilities, and
>>> that's been shown insufficient to achieve significant use by itself.
>>> 
>>> On Mar 12, 2014 1:28 AM, "Giulio Prisco" <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Take a look at https://www.ethereum.org/
>>>> 
>>>> At a first glance it seems a powerful enabler for a social singularity
>>>> and a candidate Next Big Thing. I can even see applications to AI.
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> https://protokol2020.wordpress.com/
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

Robin Hanson  http://hanson.gmu.edu
Res. Assoc., Future of Humanity Inst., Oxford Univ.
Assoc. Professor, George Mason University
Chief Scientist, Consensus Point
MSN 1D3, Carow Hall, Fairfax VA 22030
703-993-2326 FAX: 703-993-2323






From giulio at gmail.com  Fri Mar 14 17:05:24 2014
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2014 18:05:24 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Thoughts on Ethereum?
In-Reply-To: <9CE30580-A579-4F89-A5CC-A00D869AD3DE@gmu.edu>
References: <CAKTCJyeMzpV+E7fMCsGOt8-MGn2AMgF6T2ozfUHv=0zOE5mmdQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQTeiHNFc=0ZSEZwBuek00vzErJj8crfiNh=Jc7YTYOig@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALMrAFRyGfUMjKMq9m6P0EBsEo00LKv52F=u7YGv_4onj4WH-g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTCJyfgmxJDsYmzeAA5gW=og3N7Aq7Q-BMUSX5Yxj034Sthwg@mail.gmail.com>
 <9CE30580-A579-4F89-A5CC-A00D869AD3DE@gmu.edu>
Message-ID: <CAKTCJyd6-Tm5e8RCTsC1mDqo9ZnYd_LM35sPL2__itUfRrsAkQ@mail.gmail.com>

Of course Robin, but let's do one step at a time, a big if is better
than a big no. Re state enforcement, this is based on a distributed
blockchain technology similar to Bitcoin, which makes it difficult to
stop (there is no central infrastructure to seize or shut down, and
users can be very difficult to track if they take basic privacy
steps).

On Fri, Mar 14, 2014 at 2:01 PM, Robin D Hanson <rhanson at gmu.edu> wrote:
> It "would" if it became popular and widely used enough that sufficient supporting
> infrastructure was available, and it managed to resist state efforts to enforce
> rules against using it for illegal activities. Those are big ifs.
>
> On Mar 14, 2014, at 2:30 AM, Giulio Prisco wrote:
>> "Adrian - It's yet another solution looking for a problem at the moment."
>>
>> Well, it's a platform, it may open ways to develop many solution to
>> many problems. For example, Ethereum seems the ideal platform to
>> develop idea futures and general prediction markets.
>>
>> A PAM http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Policy_Analysis_Market built on
>> Ethereum would permit betting real money (more precisely, cryptocoins
>> that can be concerted to real money) anonymously.
>>
>> Robin, are you here and can you comment?
>>
>> On Wed, Mar 12, 2014 at 11:23 PM, Tomaz Kristan <protokol2020 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> I thought, something like this will be only possible using quantum
>>> contracts. But I was only half right. It may be possible with the classical
>>> cryptography, too!
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Mar 12, 2014 at 7:31 PM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> It's yet another solution looking for a problem at the moment.
>>>>
>>>> Let me know once they list specific things they can do better than
>>>> existing alternatives.  Right now they just list general capabilities, and
>>>> that's been shown insufficient to achieve significant use by itself.
>>>>
>>>> On Mar 12, 2014 1:28 AM, "Giulio Prisco" <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Take a look at https://www.ethereum.org/
>>>>>
>>>>> At a first glance it seems a powerful enabler for a social singularity
>>>>> and a candidate Next Big Thing. I can even see applications to AI.
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> https://protokol2020.wordpress.com/
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
> Robin Hanson  http://hanson.gmu.edu
> Res. Assoc., Future of Humanity Inst., Oxford Univ.
> Assoc. Professor, George Mason University
> Chief Scientist, Consensus Point
> MSN 1D3, Carow Hall, Fairfax VA 22030
> 703-993-2326 FAX: 703-993-2323
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From atymes at gmail.com  Fri Mar 14 18:12:28 2014
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2014 11:12:28 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Thoughts on Ethereum?
In-Reply-To: <00f301cf3f91$e42806f0$ac7814d0$@att.net>
References: <CAKTCJyeMzpV+E7fMCsGOt8-MGn2AMgF6T2ozfUHv=0zOE5mmdQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQTeiHNFc=0ZSEZwBuek00vzErJj8crfiNh=Jc7YTYOig@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALMrAFRyGfUMjKMq9m6P0EBsEo00LKv52F=u7YGv_4onj4WH-g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTCJyfgmxJDsYmzeAA5gW=og3N7Aq7Q-BMUSX5Yxj034Sthwg@mail.gmail.com>
 <00f301cf3f91$e42806f0$ac7814d0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNQst3jBGSfwrGLQ8v+3QqBrQ0NXJJDEJHqLXT9r0GUhMg@mail.gmail.com>

On Mar 14, 2014 7:44 AM, "spike" <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> A solution without a problem is a good description of the WWW in 1989.  It
> ended up solving a ton of problems we didn't know we had.  It had intended
> consequences: a chain reaction of other solutions.

Right, but consider the critical enabling work that happened from 1989 to
1993, without which the WWW would never have gone on to do so much.

That was 4 years of work.  Maybe check back in 2018 and see if they've done
that work or abandoned the idea?

Alternately it could be like wind powered sailing cars: never need to gas
up.  A pity they are incompatible with most existing traffic systems, to
the point where very few people would benefit from buying them, but that is
only apparent after one takes an honest look at how they might be used and
existing alternatives.
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From atymes at gmail.com  Fri Mar 14 18:17:34 2014
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2014 11:17:34 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Thoughts on Ethereum?
In-Reply-To: <CAKTCJyd6-Tm5e8RCTsC1mDqo9ZnYd_LM35sPL2__itUfRrsAkQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKTCJyeMzpV+E7fMCsGOt8-MGn2AMgF6T2ozfUHv=0zOE5mmdQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQTeiHNFc=0ZSEZwBuek00vzErJj8crfiNh=Jc7YTYOig@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALMrAFRyGfUMjKMq9m6P0EBsEo00LKv52F=u7YGv_4onj4WH-g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTCJyfgmxJDsYmzeAA5gW=og3N7Aq7Q-BMUSX5Yxj034Sthwg@mail.gmail.com>
 <9CE30580-A579-4F89-A5CC-A00D869AD3DE@gmu.edu>
 <CAKTCJyd6-Tm5e8RCTsC1mDqo9ZnYd_LM35sPL2__itUfRrsAkQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNQTpX8cPGD4W69fBnRJA8xUW1UFkK=GyFChF_Q5m8=0LA@mail.gmail.com>

Robin is completely correct.  Those ifs need to be addressed before
Ethereum becomes interesting.  There is a major chance they will not be
addressed successfully, large enough to make it a big no unless and until
those are.
On Mar 14, 2014 10:06 AM, "Giulio Prisco" <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:

> Of course Robin, but let's do one step at a time, a big if is better
> than a big no. Re state enforcement, this is based on a distributed
> blockchain technology similar to Bitcoin, which makes it difficult to
> stop (there is no central infrastructure to seize or shut down, and
> users can be very difficult to track if they take basic privacy
> steps).
>
> On Fri, Mar 14, 2014 at 2:01 PM, Robin D Hanson <rhanson at gmu.edu> wrote:
> > It "would" if it became popular and widely used enough that sufficient
> supporting
> > infrastructure was available, and it managed to resist state efforts to
> enforce
> > rules against using it for illegal activities. Those are big ifs.
> >
> > On Mar 14, 2014, at 2:30 AM, Giulio Prisco wrote:
> >> "Adrian - It's yet another solution looking for a problem at the
> moment."
> >>
> >> Well, it's a platform, it may open ways to develop many solution to
> >> many problems. For example, Ethereum seems the ideal platform to
> >> develop idea futures and general prediction markets.
> >>
> >> A PAM http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Policy_Analysis_Market built on
> >> Ethereum would permit betting real money (more precisely, cryptocoins
> >> that can be concerted to real money) anonymously.
> >>
> >> Robin, are you here and can you comment?
> >>
> >> On Wed, Mar 12, 2014 at 11:23 PM, Tomaz Kristan <protokol2020 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>> I thought, something like this will be only possible using quantum
> >>> contracts. But I was only half right. It may be possible with the
> classical
> >>> cryptography, too!
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Wed, Mar 12, 2014 at 7:31 PM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>>> It's yet another solution looking for a problem at the moment.
> >>>>
> >>>> Let me know once they list specific things they can do better than
> >>>> existing alternatives.  Right now they just list general
> capabilities, and
> >>>> that's been shown insufficient to achieve significant use by itself.
> >>>>
> >>>> On Mar 12, 2014 1:28 AM, "Giulio Prisco" <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Take a look at https://www.ethereum.org/
> >>>>>
> >>>>> At a first glance it seems a powerful enabler for a social
> singularity
> >>>>> and a candidate Next Big Thing. I can even see applications to AI.
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
> >>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> >>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> extropy-chat mailing list
> >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> https://protokol2020.wordpress.com/
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> extropy-chat mailing list
> >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> >>>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> extropy-chat mailing list
> >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> >
> > Robin Hanson  http://hanson.gmu.edu
> > Res. Assoc., Future of Humanity Inst., Oxford Univ.
> > Assoc. Professor, George Mason University
> > Chief Scientist, Consensus Point
> > MSN 1D3, Carow Hall, Fairfax VA 22030
> > 703-993-2326 FAX: 703-993-2323
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > extropy-chat mailing list
> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Mar 14 23:49:39 2014
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2014 18:49:39 -0500
Subject: [ExI] neural interface reply
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbGCV65agvsz7KkcK5puXLp7oaQZkQoo47FVGdrhZWGYw@mail.gmail.com>

> I have to ask this question:  what do you expect a neural interface to do?

The literal answer to the question is simple:  Transduce neural signals to
and from electrical (or possibly optronic) ones, in a reliable fashion
without any adverse affects on the living tissue or the technological
components, and without disrupting the normal functions of the organic
parts.  We're still a long way from that, but progress is being made.

But I think your question was more along the lines of:  "What good would a
neural interface be?", and of course that's an open question, but here are
a few answers:

A fairly modest application would be to connect specific brain regions to
external circuitry for control of, for example, prosthetic limbs,
non-biological organs, new sensory equipment, etc.

Taking the idea further, and once the technology is worked out, you could
have very fine-grained interfaces that can talk to individual neurons and
feed the signals into/from detailed virtual-reality models of the body or
of parts of the body, so that your brain could 'drive' the virtual body.
 This would be good for full-immersion VR experiences, and also for
providing a control interface for new bodies.  Bodies which could be
anything from fully virtual to fully physical, any mix of the two, and any
mix of biological/technological for the physical side.

This will be difficult to do, and involve massive arrays of interfaces,
connecting to tens of millions of nerve-endings, but would be tremendously
useful.  You could, for example, take the central nervous system and
transplant it into a different body that was a hybrid of biological and
synthetic parts, and control it through a communications grid linked to the
interface.  You could then control virtually every aspect of such a body
(not to mention that the body could be designed and built to be vastly
better than a standard biological one).  And, yes, that's getting a bit
off-topic, but you can see the usefulness (or rather necessity) of neural
interfaces in a scenario like that.

All of the above presupposes that the biological brain will remain as it
is, producing your mind in the usual way, but there's more:

Taking things further - and later on, I imagine -, neural interfaces would
be useful in the process of 'gradual uploading', where rather than
replacing parts of the brain, or 'scanning' it, which are the usual
uploading ideas, we instead expand the mind into non-biological brain
machinery over a period of time, so that eventually the original biological
brain becomes only a small (and ultimately redundant) part of what produces
the mind.  At some point, you'd be able to ditch the original brain without
even noticing it.

Lots of assumptions there, but I don't think there's anything that's
theoretically infeasible.

Well that's a lot of ideas and no mistake, though I think I'd rather stay
all biological if I lived in the future.  All of this may be greatly
complicated by two recent findings:  glial cells, which outnumber neurons
in the brain, have now been implicated in lots more than their supportive
function:  they are involved in processing as well, and that opens all
sorts of ghost in the machine research.  Neurons may not do it all.  But
even if they did, many functions are not localized in the brain, so
connecting them with wires is going to be impossible.  I'd get rid of the
strong tendencies to cognitive errors and see if we need any more cognition
than that.  If AI fulfills its promise, we can let them do the processing
we can't, just like we do now with ordinary computers, only in a very
minimal way (i.e. they can't do anything we can't do except they can do it
faster).

And increasingly we are learning that the body helps to control the brain -
like the bacteria in our guts in very recent research.  bill
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From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Sat Mar 15 06:50:13 2014
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2014 02:50:13 -0400
Subject: [ExI] how heavy are double-slit apparatuses?
Message-ID: <CAAc1gFh83nWSuORy_eJF3_yAPWJUxLgcYJjMpiXHDHkqkxjBpg@mail.gmail.com>

Some physicists came up with yet another interpretation of QM:

http://arxiv.org/abs/1402.6144

Of course, I don't understand what they are really talking about. But in a
vague way this article induced me to think about the weight of a
double-slit apparatus testing the interference pattern of single
non-massless particles like here:

http://www.hitachi.com/rd/portal/research/em/doubleslit.html

and I mean the whole shebang, including the single electrons, the barriers,
and detector. Now, as we all know, the detection of particle path changes
the pattern between interference and non-interference. But, if the
interference is caused by interaction between entities that have mass, does
the weight of the apparatus as a whole change when we switch the apparatus
between the interfering vs. non-interfering condition?

I don't mean the weight of the single electrons themselves, if this changed
we would have heard about it a long time ago. But, if the weight of the
macroscopic apparatus changes only by the weight of interfering entities, a
very minute value, then perhaps it's something that has not been measured
yet.

Naively, if the apparatus contains "more" particles (the single electrons
interfering with whatever it is that they interfere with) vs. "less"
particles (single electrons detected at the slits and thus not interfering
with anything), then there should be an overall difference in the masses of
the two versions of the apparatus, even though the switch from one version
to the other does not involve adding or removing any classical, non-QM
objects from the apparatus.

Does this explain the mystery of dark matter? Does it throw light at dark
energy? What is the meaning of everything? And why "42"?

Food for thought.

Rafal
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From anders at aleph.se  Sat Mar 15 09:35:10 2014
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2014 10:35:10 +0100
Subject: [ExI] how heavy are double-slit apparatuses?
In-Reply-To: <CAAc1gFh83nWSuORy_eJF3_yAPWJUxLgcYJjMpiXHDHkqkxjBpg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3306287361-586@secure.ericade.net>

Rafal Smigrodzki <rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com> , 15/3/2014 7:54 AM:
?But, if the interference is caused by interaction between entities that have mass, does the weight of the apparatus as a whole change when we switch the apparatus between the interfering vs. non-interfering condition?
I don't see why it should. In one condition you get dots in one pattern, in the other one in another. But each electron (if you use them) still leaves one dot.
In fact, mass is a *classical* observable in quantum mechanics: http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=555014

Anders Sandberg, Future of Humanity Institute Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University
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From spike66 at att.net  Sat Mar 15 13:03:13 2014
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2014 06:03:13 -0700
Subject: [ExI] how heavy are double-slit apparatuses?
In-Reply-To: <CAAc1gFh83nWSuORy_eJF3_yAPWJUxLgcYJjMpiXHDHkqkxjBpg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAc1gFh83nWSuORy_eJF3_yAPWJUxLgcYJjMpiXHDHkqkxjBpg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <007c01cf404e$ed637a20$c82a6e60$@att.net>

From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Rafal Smigrodzki

>?I don't mean the weight of the single electrons themselves, if this changed we would have heard about it a long time ago. But, if the weight of the macroscopic apparatus changes only by the weight of interfering entities, a very minute value, then perhaps it's something that has not been measured yet?

 

Rafal the double slit experiment works with photons as well as electrons.  Understatement, it works better with photons.  These wouldn?t care about subtle changes in mass.  With the electron version of the experiment, we would be much more interested in the net charge of the experimental setup, and even suggests  a variation on a theme: what happens in an electron double slit experiment if we intentionally put a net charge on the apparatus?  Cool!  This is excellent science fair stuff here.  Everything needed to do that is within the price range I think, with the possible exception of the detector.

 

Does this explain the mystery of dark matter?

 

Well now.  Dark matter is here and dark matter does stuff we don?t understand, and we don?t understand why the double slit experiment does what it does, or rather our best explanations sound so crazy that your dark matter suggestion, even without any specifics, is no worse than the Copenhagen.

 

Does it throw light at dark energy?

 

It?s here and we don?t understand it.  The double slit experiment is here and we don?t understand that one either.  It does make one suspicious.

 

What is the meaning of everything?

 

If we really understood that double slit result, we would know the meaning of everything.

 

And why "42"? Rafal

 

Why not 42?  That one is as good as any other number.  I don?t buy it however.  I think it is either e or phi.  Both of those are more interesting to me than 42.

 

spike

 

 

 

 





 

 

 

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From pharos at gmail.com  Sat Mar 15 13:29:37 2014
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2014 13:29:37 +0000
Subject: [ExI] how heavy are double-slit apparatuses?
In-Reply-To: <007c01cf404e$ed637a20$c82a6e60$@att.net>
References: <CAAc1gFh83nWSuORy_eJF3_yAPWJUxLgcYJjMpiXHDHkqkxjBpg@mail.gmail.com>
 <007c01cf404e$ed637a20$c82a6e60$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAL_armhWdxSW51JBixU=qj2Eb4iJzSBsLvi9AMsq8P=uvc5FVw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Mar 15, 2014 at 1:03 PM, spike  wrote:
> Well now.  Dark matter is here and dark matter does stuff we don't
> understand, and we don't understand why the double slit experiment does what
> it does, or rather our best explanations sound so crazy that your dark
> matter suggestion, even without any specifics, is no worse than the
> Copenhagen.
>

Freaky new dark matter speculation -----

<https://medium.com/the-physics-arxiv-blog/860f24532307>

Quote:

Take a charged black hole and add an electron. The result is a 'black
hole atom', an object that might be more common than anybody suspected

Physicists have long thought that microscopic black holes must have
formed in the early universe. That's because quantum fluctuation in
the density of matter at this time would have created some regions of
space that were dense enough to form black holes.

The question that Dokuchaev and Eroshenko address is what properties
such objects would have. And the answer is exactly the properties
you'd expect of dark matter.
---------------


BillK


From test at ssec.wisc.edu  Sat Mar 15 13:32:47 2014
From: test at ssec.wisc.edu (Bill Hibbard)
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2014 07:32:47 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [ExI] AI extinction risk
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1394884801.3001.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.1.1394884801.3001.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOC.4.64.1403150730350.26411@sarah.ssec.wisc.edu>

Anders Sandberg <anders at aleph.se> wrote:

> The AI disaster scenario splits into two cases: the
> good old "superintelligence out of control" we have
> spent much effort at handling, and the "AI empowered
> people out of control" scenario, which is a tricky
> 'thick' socioeconomical problem.?

Excellent point.

My recent papers about technical AI risk conclude with:

   This paper addresses unintended AI behaviors. However,
   I believe that the greater danger comes from the fact
   that above-human-level AI is likely to be a tool in
   military and economic competition among humans and thus
   have motives that are competitive toward some humans.

At the AGI-11 Future of AGI Workshop I presented this talk:

http://agi-conference.org/2011/bill-hibbard-abstract/

This paper was rejected for the AGI-09 Workshop on the
Future of AI:

http://www.ssec.wisc.edu/~billh/g/hibbard_agi09_workshop.pdf

This letter was published in the NY TImes in 2008:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/02/science/02lett-SUPERINTELLI_LETTERS.html

And I discussed this issue in a 2008 JET paper:

http://jetpress.org/v17/hibbard.htm

My first publications about the dangers of AI in 2001
and 2002 assumed that the primary AI risk was social
and political rather than technical.

I'd like to see this risk get a much higher profile
from our community. The recent Oxford study about the
employment impact of AI is an excellent step.


From spike66 at att.net  Sat Mar 15 13:44:46 2014
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2014 06:44:46 -0700
Subject: [ExI] how heavy are double-slit apparatuses?
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armhWdxSW51JBixU=qj2Eb4iJzSBsLvi9AMsq8P=uvc5FVw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAc1gFh83nWSuORy_eJF3_yAPWJUxLgcYJjMpiXHDHkqkxjBpg@mail.gmail.com>
 <007c01cf404e$ed637a20$c82a6e60$@att.net>
 <CAL_armhWdxSW51JBixU=qj2Eb4iJzSBsLvi9AMsq8P=uvc5FVw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <009d01cf4054$bb74fab0$325ef010$@att.net>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of BillK


>...Freaky new dark matter speculation -----

<https://medium.com/the-physics-arxiv-blog/860f24532307>

Quote:

Take a charged black hole and add an electron. The result is a 'black hole
atom', an object that might be more common than anybody suspected...BillK
---------------


BillK this explanation for dark matter is at least as good as any
alternatives I have heard.  Under some conditions the primordial black holes
wouldn't have had time to evaporate from Hawking radiation, or they
maintained their existence by absorbing enough mass to compensate for losses
from Hawking radiation.  If this were Physics MythBusters, I would label
this one as plausible.

spike



From pharos at gmail.com  Sat Mar 15 14:11:39 2014
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2014 14:11:39 +0000
Subject: [ExI] AI extinction risk
In-Reply-To: <3234002068-24033@secure.ericade.net>
References: <CAL_armjBNFDANsZcSD-fVH2rAt7=uJooK5S_JdfY4ZjJXHax7Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <3234002068-24033@secure.ericade.net>
Message-ID: <CAL_armj3cdW8BcM7FYXmMn4i-UHgou-2vp5RDPAU_ehDWJVZKA@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Mar 14, 2014 at 2:02 PM, Anders Sandberg  wrote:
> Which is of course not a good description, given how the income of wealth of
> the developing world has been growing over the past decades. Check Rosling's
> graphs.
>
>

Can I nitpick?  :)  Of course it is a generalization. But don't
confuse the growing wealth and income of the developing world with the
conditions of the factory slaves. The Chinese millionaires we see
touring the West and buying up property do not work in factory
production lines, sweat shops or labour camps.

The western shift of production to cheap labour countries has indeed
created large local companies with rich owners, which in turn
increases the GDP of these countries.  But developing nations tend to
have great income inequality and official corruption, which also
doesn't much benefit the workers at the bottom of the heap. If these
workers didn't provide very cheap labour, then their production jobs
for western companies would disappear. (Or get replaced by robots, as
Foxconn has suggested).


BillK


From bbenzai at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 15 17:55:45 2014
From: bbenzai at yahoo.com (Ben)
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2014 17:55:45 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Subject:  neural interface reply
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1394884801.3001.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.1.1394884801.3001.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <53249421.7030800@yahoo.com>

William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:

 > Well that's a lot of ideas and no mistake

I know!  And I haven't even mentioned the programmable immune system, 
the refactoring of quite a few biological functions, organ-building, and 
a bunch of other things.


 > though I think I'd rather stay all biological if I lived in the future.

Well, are you all biological now?  Do you count your fingernails and 
hair as biological?  They are not composed of living cells.  What about 
your bones?  They contain living cells, but are not themselves alive.

My vision for a 'Mk2' body involves a lot of biological parts and a 
fully-intact brain, but a radical reorganisation of the body so that it 
will be much easier to maintain.  My main objection to the way things 
are is that we can't repair or replace any existing parts without doing 
damage that has to heal afterwards (statistics on the number of people 
killed by the operations meant to save them would be interesting).  
Wouldn't it be better if we had bodies that were designed to be 
maintained?  I'm not thinking of a 'brain in a robot body' or a 'brain 
in a jar' kind of thing here, but a fully-functional body that was a 
hybrid of the best of both worlds, the biological and the technological 
(and when I say 'fully-functional', of course I really mean 'vastly 
superior'! ;>).


 > All of this may be greatly complicated ... glia... etc.

I'm not proposing any changes to the brain at all.  My idea involves 
replacing the peripheral nervous system with a synthetic alternative, 
but leaving the brain itself strictly alone (until we know more!).

 > And increasingly we are learning that the body helps to control the 
brain -
 > like the bacteria in our guts in very recent research.

Yes, that will be an interesting area of investigation.  Made a lot 
easier by the architecture I'm proposing, which would preserve those 
kind of interactions, but make them much more amenable to observation 
and experimentation.

Ben Zaiboc


From painlord2k at libero.it  Sat Mar 15 22:58:54 2014
From: painlord2k at libero.it (Mirco Romanato)
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2014 23:58:54 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Thoughts on Ethereum?
In-Reply-To: <CAKTCJyeMzpV+E7fMCsGOt8-MGn2AMgF6T2ozfUHv=0zOE5mmdQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKTCJyeMzpV+E7fMCsGOt8-MGn2AMgF6T2ozfUHv=0zOE5mmdQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5324DB2E.7000205@libero.it>

Il 12/03/2014 09:26, Giulio Prisco ha scritto:
> Take a look at https://www.ethereum.org/
> 
> At a first glance it seems a powerful enabler for a social singularity
> and a candidate Next Big Thing. I can even see applications to AI.

I think there will be more long term development in protocols
piggy-backing the existing Bitcoin protocol and its blockchain. The
blockchain of Bitcoin is a lot more secure than the blockchain of any
other proof-of-work coin of orders of magnitude.

Other cryptos have a lot less secure networks compared to bitcoin (they
are really vulnerable to 51% attacks) so they are at a big disadvantage
against bitcoin.

Ethereum, for example, need ethers (its coins) to work and set up
contracts. If ethers value is too small, it will be difficult or
impossible to create significant contracts where significant value is
exchanged.

It all depend on how much people is willing to buy and hold long term
ethers just because they are valued (they think ethers will retain,
maintain, increase, their value in the future). If no one want keep a
significant quantity of ethers for long periods of time (because they
prefer Bitcoin or gold or whatever), then the contracts will not take-off.

Mirco


From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Sun Mar 16 08:47:11 2014
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2014 01:47:11 -0700
Subject: [ExI] aaaahnold crushes it
In-Reply-To: <014d01cf3f9b$13420bd0$39c62370$@att.net>
References: <014d01cf3f9b$13420bd0$39c62370$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy03TMx4Kcrxz8OBwLSE1ZT6SZmexiqSLMG+yQPwCgMWYQ@mail.gmail.com>

Arnold was a tank driver, as a conscript in the Austrian military, which
helps to explain his interest in this activity.  But frankly, I am more
impressed with Michael Dorn (Worf from Star Trek), who loves flying, and
owns a Korean War era jet fighter!  : )


John


On Fri, Mar 14, 2014 at 8:35 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

>
>
> We need to figure out how to somehow crush ageing and death:
>
>
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4lnVx2BAYk
>
>
>
> spike
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From brent.allsop at canonizer.com  Sun Mar 16 17:26:38 2014
From: brent.allsop at canonizer.com (Brent Allsop)
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2014 11:26:38 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Thoughts on Ethereum?
In-Reply-To: <5324DB2E.7000205@libero.it>
References: <CAKTCJyeMzpV+E7fMCsGOt8-MGn2AMgF6T2ozfUHv=0zOE5mmdQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5324DB2E.7000205@libero.it>
Message-ID: <5325DECE.3060800@canonizer.com>



Extropians,

On 3/15/2014 4:58 PM, Mirco Romanato wrote:
> It all depend on how much people is willing to buy and hold long term 
> ethers just because they are valued (they think ethers will retain, 
> maintain, increase, their value in the future). If no one want keep a 
> significant quantity of ethers for long periods of time (because they 
> prefer Bitcoin or gold or whatever), then the contracts will not 
> take-off.

Here's my thoughts.  I would love to know if anyone agrees or disagrees.

Bitcoin has about 12% new coins moving into the market, per year, via 
mining, for more than the next 3 years before it drops to half that.  I 
bet Venezuela, Nigeria, Iceland, and other countries experiencing 
terrible inflation have far less than 12% per year new coins per year 
causing their inflation.  Obviously nobody wants to hold Naira any 
longer than necessary, because of the terrible inflation rates caused by 
less than 12% new coins / year, obviously outpacing their economic growth.

But Ether coins will have 50% / year new coins coming onto the market.  
That just seems brain dead to me.  I certainly wouldn't want to hold any 
such coins with that kind of inflation.  Doge coin has a similar 
inflation rate.  This is what people do to stop people from hording the 
currency, thinking it will make using the coin, for tips and such, 
easier.  For exactly the reason Micro gives, this strategy will back 
fire and make inflating currencies crash and fail, once they reach their 
maximum saturation of popularity rate.

Invictus Innovations Bitshares, on the other hand, will have zero new 
coins coming into production after the initial genesis block is seeded.  
In my book, this will be a much better investment (I have invested in 
them).  But then, there is unobtanium coins, that takes this theory to 
the extreme, and it isn't doing well either, so who knows.

To me, all these hard coded inflation rate currencies are 'dumb' coins, 
which will never work in the long run, and are nothing more than flashes 
in the pan (although very big flashes).  I think a 'smart' coin that can 
intelligently adjust will easily out compete any inflexible dumb coin.  
That is why we're toying with the idea of a smart coin.  
http://canonizer.com/topic.asp/150/6.   The inflation rate could be 
determined by an amplification of the wisdom of all the holders of the 
coin canonization process.  Also, the new work that get's done to earn 
the new coins would also be determined by the holders of the coins, for 
whatever work they saw fit from improving canonizer.com, to charity, to 
anything else the holders of the coin wanted done.  And, if any currency 
were more like shares in a company, having real PE and dividend 
potential, why would you hold any coin without such?  So, in other 
words, the leaderless Canonizer.com could go "cryptographically public" 
so to speak, converting the current "recognition shares" people have 
earned for open source development work done to date in "Canon Coins" 
which would be shares in Canonizer.com.

But, then, there seems to be very few people that think any such will 
work, so maybe not?

Dumb idea?  Good idea?  Is it worth trying?

Brent


























From painlord2k at libero.it  Sun Mar 16 20:00:23 2014
From: painlord2k at libero.it (Mirco Romanato)
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2014 21:00:23 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Thoughts on Ethereum?
In-Reply-To: <5325DECE.3060800@canonizer.com>
References: <CAKTCJyeMzpV+E7fMCsGOt8-MGn2AMgF6T2ozfUHv=0zOE5mmdQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5324DB2E.7000205@libero.it> <5325DECE.3060800@canonizer.com>
Message-ID: <532602D7.9040301@libero.it>

Il 16/03/2014 18:26, Brent Allsop ha scritto:
> 
> 
> Extropians,
> 
> On 3/15/2014 4:58 PM, Mirco Romanato wrote:
>> It all depend on how much people is willing to buy and hold long term
>> ethers just because they are valued (they think ethers will retain,
>> maintain, increase, their value in the future). If no one want keep a
>> significant quantity of ethers for long periods of time (because they
>> prefer Bitcoin or gold or whatever), then the contracts will not
>> take-off.
> 
> Here's my thoughts.  I would love to know if anyone agrees or disagrees.
> 
> Bitcoin has about 12% new coins moving into the market, per year, via
> mining, for more than the next 3 years before it drops to half that.  I
> bet Venezuela, Nigeria, Iceland, and other countries experiencing
> terrible inflation have far less than 12% per year new coins per year
> causing their inflation.  Obviously nobody wants to hold Naira any
> longer than necessary, because of the terrible inflation rates caused by
> less than 12% new coins / year, obviously outpacing their economic growth.

I (with some help) compiled this chart comparing the M0 and M1 inflation
of the US$ and M0 Inflation of Bitcoin.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AnWZ8CNHuTE3dGo3RTBoSHdvQnZsZkpZdHB1ZUhQLWc#gid=0

I do not see any serious difference in the current annual and monthly
inflation rate between US$ and Bitcoin. There is a slightly advantage
for the USD, but it is slim and getting slimmer and it is all due to the
increasing of mining power,

The next halving is about end August 2016 (2 years and half), but
probably will be pulled in end June, early July, 2016 by the continuous
increasing of mining power.

> But Ether coins will have 50% / year new coins coming onto the market. 
> That just seems brain dead to me.  I certainly wouldn't want to hold any
> such coins with that kind of inflation.  Doge coin has a similar
> inflation rate.  This is what people do to stop people from hording the
> currency, thinking it will make using the coin, for tips and such,
> easier.  For exactly the reason Micro gives, this strategy will back
> fire and make inflating currencies crash and fail, once they reach their
> maximum saturation of popularity rate.

I looked at Dogecoin and the inflation rate is, at least initially
(first year) a lot higher than the inflation rate of Bitcoin, but it
will fall to 5% per year after the first year and slowly reduce (5
billion new Dogecoins per year after the first 100 Billions were mined,
forever).
	
Inflation (theoretic) rates compared
	Dogecoin	Bitcoin	Litecoin	Ether
2015	5.26		10	33.3		33
2016	5		9.09	12.5		25
2017	4.76		4.1	11.11		20
2018	4.54		4	10		16.6
2019	4.25		3.85	9.09		14.29
2020	4.2		3.7	4.1		12.5

In this we see Ether is more like Doge on long term, because it has a
fixed issuance of new ethers (from day one) where Doge have a fixed
issuance of Dogecoin after one year.

Litecoin e Bitcoin, instead, have a halving issuance every four years
(with a two years advantage for Bitcoin).


> Invictus Innovations Bitshares, on the other hand, will have zero new
> coins coming into production after the initial genesis block is seeded. 
> In my book, this will be a much better investment (I have invested in
> them).  But then, there is unobtanium coins, that takes this theory to
> the extreme, and it isn't doing well either, so who knows.

What hit me, compiling the data above, is even ethers and Doges start
appearing interesting to hold against the USD (Yen, Renmimbi, Euro,
etc.) after a few years.

What could support the value of ethers is the fact you need to spend
them to setup contracts and more complex the contract (more steps it
has), more ethers must be spent on it in fees.
Some ethers must be spent to pay for the various steps of the contract,
so they will be unavailable until the steps are executed. Others will be
linked to the contract and on hold until the contract end.
This could cause a larger share of ethers to be hold and unavailable
compared with Bitcoin.

For example: a transaction using Bitcoin prevent the bitcoins to be
spent for one hour (six confirmations) so the same bitcoin could be
transacted 24 times a day (at most). An Ethereum contract could last
days, weeks, months and the ethers used would be mostly (like 99.9%)
unavailable.


> To me, all these hard coded inflation rate currencies are 'dumb' coins,
> which will never work in the long run, and are nothing more than flashes
> in the pan (although very big flashes).  I think a 'smart' coin that can
> intelligently adjust will easily out compete any inflexible dumb coin. 

I think the reverse.
Any coin flexible will be flexed and gamed by TPTBs for their profit and
our loss.
Any inflexible coin will not and will keep the field leveled.


Mirco


From atymes at gmail.com  Sun Mar 16 20:48:37 2014
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2014 13:48:37 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Thoughts on Ethereum?
In-Reply-To: <532602D7.9040301@libero.it>
References: <CAKTCJyeMzpV+E7fMCsGOt8-MGn2AMgF6T2ozfUHv=0zOE5mmdQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5324DB2E.7000205@libero.it> <5325DECE.3060800@canonizer.com>
 <532602D7.9040301@libero.it>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNR2ePS93Q+5xDUkKr-A_-vk3b904_-wOpV7yPYc2OOPHg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Mar 16, 2014 at 1:00 PM, Mirco Romanato <painlord2k at libero.it>wrote:

> I (with some help) compiled this chart comparing the M0 and M1 inflation
> of the US$ and M0 Inflation of Bitcoin.
>
>
> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AnWZ8CNHuTE3dGo3RTBoSHdvQnZsZkpZdHB1ZUhQLWc#gid=0
>
> I do not see any serious difference in the current annual and monthly
> inflation rate between US$ and Bitcoin.


I do.  That sheet lists differences of several %.  That's "serious" in
financial terms.
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From painlord2k at libero.it  Sun Mar 16 21:32:36 2014
From: painlord2k at libero.it (Mirco Romanato)
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2014 22:32:36 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Thoughts on Ethereum?
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNR2ePS93Q+5xDUkKr-A_-vk3b904_-wOpV7yPYc2OOPHg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKTCJyeMzpV+E7fMCsGOt8-MGn2AMgF6T2ozfUHv=0zOE5mmdQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5324DB2E.7000205@libero.it> <5325DECE.3060800@canonizer.com>
 <532602D7.9040301@libero.it>
 <CALAdGNR2ePS93Q+5xDUkKr-A_-vk3b904_-wOpV7yPYc2OOPHg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <53261874.3080406@libero.it>

Il 16/03/2014 21:48, Adrian Tymes ha scritto:
> On Sun, Mar 16, 2014 at 1:00 PM, Mirco Romanato <painlord2k at libero.it
> <mailto:painlord2k at libero.it>> wrote:
> 
>     I (with some help) compiled this chart comparing the M0 and M1 inflation
>     of the US$ and M0 Inflation of Bitcoin.
> 
>     https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AnWZ8CNHuTE3dGo3RTBoSHdvQnZsZkpZdHB1ZUhQLWc#gid=0
> 
>     I do not see any serious difference in the current annual and monthly
>     inflation rate between US$ and Bitcoin.
> 
> 
> I do.  That sheet lists differences of several %.  That's "serious" in
> financial terms.

Is it?

Remember, I can know the 2015 or 2016 or 2020 or 2030 inflation of
bitcoin today
I can not know how much the Federal Reserve Chair will print tomorrow.
It is a long run.

Currently, the use of USD for commerce is reducing where the use of
bitcoins is increasing. Some put the increase of users in 2013 around
500% (500K to 2.5M).

There are numerous advantages present (and future) in owning and using
bitcoins (the stuff the press often decries)

This must priced in and is priced in.

Mirco


From atymes at gmail.com  Sun Mar 16 22:04:01 2014
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2014 15:04:01 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Thoughts on Ethereum?
In-Reply-To: <53261874.3080406@libero.it>
References: <CAKTCJyeMzpV+E7fMCsGOt8-MGn2AMgF6T2ozfUHv=0zOE5mmdQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5324DB2E.7000205@libero.it> <5325DECE.3060800@canonizer.com>
 <532602D7.9040301@libero.it>
 <CALAdGNR2ePS93Q+5xDUkKr-A_-vk3b904_-wOpV7yPYc2OOPHg@mail.gmail.com>
 <53261874.3080406@libero.it>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNRj3KBPg4jAyYWABOw1NciQqmHHkO8fzTSsrBAbnS60iA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Mar 16, 2014 at 2:32 PM, Mirco Romanato <painlord2k at libero.it>wrote:

> Il 16/03/2014 21:48, Adrian Tymes ha scritto:
> > That sheet lists differences of several %.  That's "serious" in
> > financial terms.
>
> Is it?
>

Heck yeah.  2% versus 10% interest/inflation/etc. per year, let alone per
month?  Ask any financial analyst or accountant and they'll tell you that's
a big difference.

Just last week, I was reading an article about how VC firms were only
returning 7% interest over a given period during which Standard & Poor's
returned 9% interest, and that was presented as debunking the idea that VC
firms were a good investment - not even "roughly equal", but "much worse".
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From tim at tt1.org  Sun Mar 16 12:42:58 2014
From: tim at tt1.org (Tim Tyler)
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2014 08:42:58 -0400
Subject: [ExI] AI extinction risk
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOC.4.64.1403150730350.26411@sarah.ssec.wisc.edu>
References: <mailman.1.1394884801.3001.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <Pine.SOC.4.64.1403150730350.26411@sarah.ssec.wisc.edu>
Message-ID: <53259C52.4010009@tt1.org>

On 15/03/2014 09:32, Bill Hibbard wrote:

> My recent papers about technical AI risk conclude with:
>
>   This paper addresses unintended AI behaviors. However,
>   I believe that the greater danger comes from the fact
>   that above-human-level AI is likely to be a tool in
>   military and economic competition among humans and thus
>   have motives that are competitive toward some humans.

Military and economic competition between groups seem far more likely
to extinguish specific individuals to me too. It would therefore make
considerable sense for individuals to focus on these kinds of problem.

The rationale given for focusing on other risk scenarios seems to be
that military and economic competition between groups is *relatively*
unlikely to destroy everything - whereas things like "grey goo" or
civilization-scale wireheading could potentially result in everyone's
entire future being destroyed.

Any evolved predispositions humans have are likely to direct them
to focus on the first type of risk. I figure that these more personal
risks will receive plenty of attention in due course.
-- 
__________
  |im |yler  http://timtyler.org/  tim at tt1lock.org  Remove lock to reply.

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From rolandodegilead at gmail.com  Mon Mar 17 01:29:48 2014
From: rolandodegilead at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Eugenio_Mart=EDnez?=)
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2014 02:29:48 +0100
Subject: [ExI] AI extinction risk
In-Reply-To: <53259C52.4010009@tt1.org>
References: <mailman.1.1394884801.3001.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <Pine.SOC.4.64.1403150730350.26411@sarah.ssec.wisc.edu>
 <53259C52.4010009@tt1.org>
Message-ID: <CANSO=1kW7HtP6yz=6depN2w=RHT45FDHAv5ZjV-xM1_OBwHH1Q@mail.gmail.com>

>
> When robot machinery replaces even the slave labour and computer tech
> replaces professional workers, then the consumer society is finished.
> People without an income don't buy enough stuff to maintain the current
> system.


I don?t want to be seen as a comunist, but, if AI is going to become real,
we better start to change the current system before it trigger our
extinction.

Alternatives?  I see two clear:

1.Working credits: You have an amount of work assigned and you can invest
it wherever you want, so it can give you more money. And you can buy more
working credits etc.

2.IA works, money is shared equally to every human. So everybody has food,
health, existence is assured, education is assured and people doesn?t have
to invest 1/3 of his life doing things to try to "keep flying" the other
2/3.

First is just an extension of today?s system, but everybody works in the
same (invest work credits) and.. everybody works. And there are poor and
rich people.

Second sounds like an utopy. Not only that: Is a utopy unbeatable, And
indestructible, as long as IA police would keep the system running.





On Sun, Mar 16, 2014 at 1:42 PM, Tim Tyler <tim at tt1.org> wrote:

>  On 15/03/2014 09:32, Bill Hibbard wrote:
>
>  My recent papers about technical AI risk conclude with:
>
>   This paper addresses unintended AI behaviors. However,
>   I believe that the greater danger comes from the fact
>   that above-human-level AI is likely to be a tool in
>   military and economic competition among humans and thus
>   have motives that are competitive toward some humans.
>
>
> Military and economic competition between groups seem far more likely
> to extinguish specific individuals to me too. It would therefore make
> considerable sense for individuals to focus on these kinds of problem.
>
> The rationale given for focusing on other risk scenarios seems to be
> that military and economic competition between groups is *relatively*
> unlikely to destroy everything - whereas things like "grey goo" or
> civilization-scale wireheading could potentially result in everyone's
> entire future being destroyed.
>
> Any evolved predispositions humans have are likely to direct them
> to focus on the first type of risk. I figure that these more personal
> risks will receive plenty of attention in due course.
> --
> __________
>  |im |yler  http://timtyler.org/  tim at tt1lock.org  Remove lock to reply.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>


-- 
OLVIDATE.DE
Tatachan.com
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From tara at taramayastales.com  Mon Mar 17 03:13:52 2014
From: tara at taramayastales.com (Tara Maya)
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2014 20:13:52 -0700
Subject: [ExI] AI extinction risk
In-Reply-To: <CANSO=1kW7HtP6yz=6depN2w=RHT45FDHAv5ZjV-xM1_OBwHH1Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1394884801.3001.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <Pine.SOC.4.64.1403150730350.26411@sarah.ssec.wisc.edu>
 <53259C52.4010009@tt1.org>
 <CANSO=1kW7HtP6yz=6depN2w=RHT45FDHAv5ZjV-xM1_OBwHH1Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <B468CA5D-3F4A-4B92-93CC-3FD7E758B5A7@taramayastales.com>


On Mar 16, 2014, at 6:29 PM, Eugenio Mart?nez <rolandodegilead at gmail.com> wrote:

> When robot machinery replaces even the slave labour and computer tech replaces professional workers, then the consumer society is finished. People without an income don't buy enough stuff to maintain the current system.

I don't believe this. I see three possible scenarios:

A) AIs are no longer an extension of human will, but supersede it and are possibly antagonistic to it; they won't be doing the jobs people want done, hence, people will still need to do them.

B) Machinery simply extends human will. (As it has always done.) What humans want done expands to accommodate the new possibilities (as it has always done). Since some humans own AIs with certain specialties, and other humans own AIs with other specialties, and they use money to keep track of a complex system of mutual reciprocity ("the economy"). There's a huge number of projects in architecture, engineering, biology, health, and countless other fields that we can imagine but currently can't afford--with AIs these open up for developement.

C) AIs are separate from but not antagonistic to human will (at least not as a collective; individuals might still run amuck on both sides). This case would ooh economically similar to (B ) except that AIs would be sentient, autonomous economic agents as well as humans.

I don't see any of these scenarios making a Humanwide Welfare system either useful or desirable.


Tara Maya
Blog  |  Twitter  |  Facebook  |  Amazon  |  Goodreads



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From brent.allsop at canonizer.com  Mon Mar 17 04:41:11 2014
From: brent.allsop at canonizer.com (Brent Allsop)
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2014 22:41:11 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Thoughts on Ethereum?
In-Reply-To: <532602D7.9040301@libero.it>
References: <CAKTCJyeMzpV+E7fMCsGOt8-MGn2AMgF6T2ozfUHv=0zOE5mmdQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5324DB2E.7000205@libero.it> <5325DECE.3060800@canonizer.com>
 <532602D7.9040301@libero.it>
Message-ID: <53267CE7.3080802@canonizer.com>



Thanks Micro,  that is very interesting information.

It seems to me that Adrian has a good point about small percentages 
being much more significant than you are making them out to be.

And your data is only covering a period in financial history where the 
money supply is being pumped up way beyond any money growth rate in our 
federal reserve history.  Everyone considered the new Federal reserve 
chairman, Janet Yalen's?), job to be to reverse this trend and make it 
go negative for a long period of time. Everyone is wondering how she 
will be able to remove all this money that has been dumped into the 
system during the time of your graphs.  Many doom and groomers 
predicting that it will not be possible, and that inflation will go way 
beyond what it was in the 70s.


On 3/16/2014 2:00 PM, Mirco Romanato wrote:
> 	
> Inflation (theoretic) rates compared
> 	Dogecoin	Bitcoin	Litecoin	Ether
> 2015	5.26		10	33.3		33
> 2016	5		9.09	12.5		25
> 2017	4.76		4.1	11.11		20
> 2018	4.54		4	10		16.6
> 2019	4.25		3.85	9.09		14.29
> 2020	4.2		3.7	4.1		12.5
>
> In this we see Ether is more like Doge on long term, because it has a
> fixed issuance of new ethers (from day one) where Doge have a fixed
> issuance of Dogecoin after one year.
>
> Litecoin e Bitcoin, instead, have a halving issuance every four years
> (with a two years advantage for Bitcoin).
>
>
>> Invictus Innovations Bitshares, on the other hand, will have zero new
>> coins coming into production after the initial genesis block is seeded.
>> In my book, this will be a much better investment (I have invested in
>> them).  But then, there is unobtanium coins, that takes this theory to
>> the extreme, and it isn't doing well either, so who knows.
> What hit me, compiling the data above, is even ethers and Doges start
> appearing interesting to hold against the USD (Yen, Renmimbi, Euro,
> etc.) after a few years.

This seems completely unjustified to me.  First off, do you even think 
Bitcoin will be around, in anything like it's current form beyond 2020?  
About 4 percent for the best of these still seems like it could be far 
above the growth rate of the world economy, especially if we start to 
have any recessions during that time. Isn't the average annual growth 
rate of the entire world economy only about 2 or 3 percent per year, 
over the long haul?  Do you have any annualized data for this (again, 
not just during these recovery from a recession years you are reporting?


> What could support the value of ethers is the fact you need to spend
> them to setup contracts and more complex the contract (more steps it
> has), more ethers must be spent on it in fees.
> Some ethers must be spent to pay for the various steps of the contract,
> so they will be unavailable until the steps are executed. Others will be
> linked to the contract and on hold until the contract end.
> This could cause a larger share of ethers to be hold and unavailable
> compared with Bitcoin.

Seems to me, unless these are very small amounts of ether, per contract, 
nobody would use it as the cost would be prohibitive?

>
> For example: a transaction using Bitcoin prevent the bitcoins to be
> spent for one hour (six confirmations) so the same bitcoin could be
> transacted 24 times a day (at most). An Ethereum contract could last
> days, weeks, months and the ethers used would be mostly (like 99.9%)
> unavailable.

But people, like coinbase, are already talking about micro transactions 
being done in Bitcoin, off block.  So things like that could drastically 
alter the impact of this kind of analysis, right?

>> To me, all these hard coded inflation rate currencies are 'dumb' coins,
>> which will never work in the long run, and are nothing more than flashes
>> in the pan (although very big flashes).  I think a 'smart' coin that can
>> intelligently adjust will easily out compete any inflexible dumb coin.
> I think the reverse.
> Any coin flexible will be flexed and gamed by TPTBs for their profit and
> our loss.
> Any inflexible coin will not and will keep the field leveled.

I seem to be much more Keynesian, and you much more Austrian in our 
working hypothesis.  Oh, and the power that be (TBTB) in the smart canon 
coin case, are the holders of the canon coins.  The holders of the coins 
would be the ones that vote their coins, in an amplification of the 
wisdom of the crowd process.  It is my working hypothesis that such an 
amplification of the wisdom of the crowd process would vastly out 
perform the intelligence and agility of any hierarchically organizes 
power that be.  To say nothing of being able to do, whatever the holders 
of the coins say, concisely and quantitatively, they want, getting 
measurably perfect buy in of everyone.  Also, the work being done to put 
new currency into production, could go to whatever the holders of the 
currency want, vastly more efficient than what today's centrally 
controlled government hierarchies are able to do, if they are able to do 
anything at all, other than polarize on trivial issues and endlessly 
argue about them.

Brent Allsop










From rolandodegilead at gmail.com  Mon Mar 17 10:30:46 2014
From: rolandodegilead at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Eugenio_Mart=EDnez?=)
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2014 11:30:46 +0100
Subject: [ExI] AI extinction risk
In-Reply-To: <B468CA5D-3F4A-4B92-93CC-3FD7E758B5A7@taramayastales.com>
References: <mailman.1.1394884801.3001.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <Pine.SOC.4.64.1403150730350.26411@sarah.ssec.wisc.edu>
 <53259C52.4010009@tt1.org>
 <CANSO=1kW7HtP6yz=6depN2w=RHT45FDHAv5ZjV-xM1_OBwHH1Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <B468CA5D-3F4A-4B92-93CC-3FD7E758B5A7@taramayastales.com>
Message-ID: <CANSO=1=wJXmvomiWOXJZpp_q_=S+g=VdL-ybjUpyh8ubRvGJ2w@mail.gmail.com>

>
> A) AIs are no longer an extension of human will, but supersede it and are
> possibly antagonistic to it; they won't be doing the jobs people want done,
> hence, people will still need to do them.
>
> B) Machinery simply extends human will. (As it has always done.) What
> humans want done expands to accommodate the new possibilities (as it has
> always done). Since some humans own AIs with certain specialties, and other
> humans own AIs with other specialties, and they use money to keep track of
> a complex system of mutual reciprocity ("the economy"). There's a huge
> number of projects in architecture, engineering, biology, health, and
> countless other fields that we can imagine but currently can't afford--with
> AIs these open up for developement.
>
> C) AIs are separate from but not antagonistic to human will (at least not
> as a collective; individuals might still run amuck on both sides). This
> case would ooh economically similar to (B ) except that AIs would be
> sentient, autonomous economic agents as well as humans.
>

The results of A and C would be ultrarich AI?s and poor humans, starving
and dying. It would be like today, but instead of 70% of poor humans, would
be the 100%

If we achieve B and still people have to work and, therefore, still are
poors, I mean:

If we have the possibility of make everybody?s life assured (and AI?s give
us that possibility) and we don?t, Trans*Humanist* philosophies can be
marked as another crazy unreachable utopia. Saving lives (of those who want
to live) is ethically important.
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From tara at taramayastales.com  Mon Mar 17 21:24:53 2014
From: tara at taramayastales.com (Tara Maya)
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2014 14:24:53 -0700
Subject: [ExI] AI extinction risk
In-Reply-To: <CANSO=1=wJXmvomiWOXJZpp_q_=S+g=VdL-ybjUpyh8ubRvGJ2w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1394884801.3001.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <Pine.SOC.4.64.1403150730350.26411@sarah.ssec.wisc.edu>
 <53259C52.4010009@tt1.org>
 <CANSO=1kW7HtP6yz=6depN2w=RHT45FDHAv5ZjV-xM1_OBwHH1Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <B468CA5D-3F4A-4B92-93CC-3FD7E758B5A7@taramayastales.com>
 <CANSO=1=wJXmvomiWOXJZpp_q_=S+g=VdL-ybjUpyh8ubRvGJ2w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A2AED662-C075-403C-BDA9-CCB6FA2CE2FD@taramayastales.com>


On Mar 17, 2014, at 3:30 AM, Eugenio Mart?nez <rolandodegilead at gmail.com> wrote:

> If we achieve B and still people have to work and, therefore, still are poors, I mean:
> 
> If we have the possibility of make everybody?s life assured (and AI?s give us that possibility) and we don?t, TransHumanist philosophies can be marked as another crazy unreachable utopia. Saving lives (of those who want to live) is ethically important.



But you see, poverty is completely relative. I've worked in a homeless shelter and I can tell you that the homeless of America are wealthy and healthy compared to the poor of the Third World. And the poor of the Third World are healthy and wealthy compared to people from the past.

In Bali, a delightful island paradise where food literally falls from trees, the traditional religious calendar is arranged so that about a third of all days in the year "must" be spent creating huge arrangements of fruit, flowers and colored powders. Dancing and rituals take the rest of the day. Traditionally the "rich" were people who could afford bigger arrangements of flowers. (Obviously, I'm simplifying, there were wars and what-not too), but my point is that even in a society where no one HAD to starve, or fight, or die of illness, because it was just such a rich and safe and prosperous society? there would still be an economy, there would still be people with more flowers and others with less. Because that's human nature. 

Now, once human nature changes, all bets are off. But there's unfortunately no reason to think that AIs or Transhumans would be any less competitive. 

Tara Maya
Blog  |  Twitter  |  Facebook  |  Amazon  |  Goodreads



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From rolandodegilead at gmail.com  Mon Mar 17 23:44:37 2014
From: rolandodegilead at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Eugenio_Mart=EDnez?=)
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2014 00:44:37 +0100
Subject: [ExI] AI extinction risk
In-Reply-To: <A2AED662-C075-403C-BDA9-CCB6FA2CE2FD@taramayastales.com>
References: <mailman.1.1394884801.3001.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <Pine.SOC.4.64.1403150730350.26411@sarah.ssec.wisc.edu>
 <53259C52.4010009@tt1.org>
 <CANSO=1kW7HtP6yz=6depN2w=RHT45FDHAv5ZjV-xM1_OBwHH1Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <B468CA5D-3F4A-4B92-93CC-3FD7E758B5A7@taramayastales.com>
 <CANSO=1=wJXmvomiWOXJZpp_q_=S+g=VdL-ybjUpyh8ubRvGJ2w@mail.gmail.com>
 <A2AED662-C075-403C-BDA9-CCB6FA2CE2FD@taramayastales.com>
Message-ID: <CANSO=1=dY9h25wuV86spZBKFi3j0B7OAeZfzt16L7BqZUxdq4w@mail.gmail.com>

Of course and agree with you, Tara. Very intelligent and true answer.

What I wanted to mean is that doesn?t mind if there is rich or poor people
as long as even the poorest person has enough to live a life (that is, at
least, food, water and a shelter... and I even would say: A room for him or
him and his family, food, electricity, water and internet.)

Ha ha. In a debate during a Tedx I said that the poorest person in Spain
is, in certain way, more rich than the richest king on middle ages and I
was booed :D


On Mon, Mar 17, 2014 at 10:24 PM, Tara Maya <tara at taramayastales.com> wrote:

>
> On Mar 17, 2014, at 3:30 AM, Eugenio Mart?nez <rolandodegilead at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> If we achieve B and still people have to work and, therefore, still are
> poors, I mean:
>
> If we have the possibility of make everybody?s life assured (and AI?s give
> us that possibility) and we don?t, Trans*Humanist* philosophies can be
> marked as another crazy unreachable utopia. Saving lives (of those who want
> to live) is ethically important.
>
>
>
> But you see, poverty is completely relative. I've worked in a homeless
> shelter and I can tell you that the homeless of America are wealthy and
> healthy compared to the poor of the Third World. And the poor of the Third
> World are healthy and wealthy compared to people from the past.
>
> In Bali, a delightful island paradise where food literally falls from
> trees, the traditional religious calendar is arranged so that about a third
> of all days in the year "must" be spent creating huge arrangements of
> fruit, flowers and colored powders. Dancing and rituals take the rest of
> the day. Traditionally the "rich" were people who could afford bigger
> arrangements of flowers. (Obviously, I'm simplifying, there were wars and
> what-not too), but my point is that even in a society where no one HAD to
> starve, or fight, or die of illness, because it was just such a rich and
> safe and prosperous society... there would still be an economy, there would
> still be people with more flowers and others with less. Because that's
> human nature.
>
> Now, once human nature changes, all bets are off. But there's
> unfortunately no reason to think that AIs or Transhumans would be any less
> competitive.
>
> Tara Maya
> Blog <http://taramayastales.blogspot.com/>  |  Twitter<https://twitter.com/taramayastales>  |
>  Facebook<http://www.facebook.com/pages/The-Unfinished-Song-Epic-Fantasy/310271375658211?ref=hl>  |
>  Amazon<http://www.amazon.com/Tara-Maya/e/B004HAI038/ref=sr_tc_2_0?qid=1349796143&sr=8-2-ent>  |
>  Goodreads <http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/2951879.Tara_Maya>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>


-- 
OLVIDATE.DE
Tatachan.com
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From spike66 at att.net  Tue Mar 18 03:54:37 2014
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2014 20:54:37 -0700
Subject: [ExI] 20 yrs ago vs now
Message-ID: <09e201cf425d$c94c8260$5be58720$@att.net>

 

Those of you who have been hanging out on ExI-chat for a long time, remember
the kinds of stuff we were talking about here less than 20 yrs ago, how
ethereal it seemed, so far off.  These are the top five stories today in the
most mainstream news source there is, CNN:

 

 

Science news

 
<http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/26/health/ivf-mitochondria/index.html?iid=articl
e_sidebar> FDA considering '3-parent babies' 

updated 7:06 PM EST, Thu February 27, 2014 

 
<http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/26/health/ivf-mitochondria/index.html?iid=articl
e_sidebar>
http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/dam/assets/111012042456-newborn-baby-birth-vide
o-tease.jpg

A promising way to stop a deadly disease, or an uncomfortable step toward
what one leading ethicist called eugenics?

 
<http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/14/us/seattle-mammoth-tusk/index.html?iid=articl
e_sidebar> Huge mammoth tusk discovered

updated 8:07 PM EST, Fri February 14, 2014 

 
<http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/14/us/seattle-mammoth-tusk/index.html?iid=articl
e_sidebar>
http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/dam/assets/140214124404-mammoth-seattle-0214-vi
deo-tease.jpg

Seattle paleontologists safely removed the largest fossilized mammoth tusk
discovered in the region from a construction site.

 
<http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/14/health/texas-lungs-grown/index.html?iid=artic
le_sidebar> Human lung made in lab for first time 

updated 4:37 PM EST, Fri February 14, 2014 

 
<http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/14/health/texas-lungs-grown/index.html?iid=artic
le_sidebar>
http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/dam/assets/140214150321-lung-comparison-video-t
ease.jpg

For the first time, scientists have created human lungs in a lab -- an
exciting step forward in regenerative medicine.

 
<http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/12/health/nanomotors-cells-science/index.html?ii
d=article_sidebar> Scientists control motors inside cells

updated 7:55 AM EST, Wed February 12, 2014 

 
<http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/12/health/nanomotors-cells-science/index.html?ii
d=article_sidebar>
http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/dam/assets/140211120350-nanoparticles-video-tea
se.jpg

Tiny rocket-shaped metal particles might one day take a wild ride inside
your body.

 
<http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/05/health/bionic-hand/index.html?iid=article_sid
ebar> Artificial hand lets amputee feel 

updated 3:11 PM EST, Thu February 6, 2014 

 
<http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/05/health/bionic-hand/index.html?iid=article_sid
ebar>
http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/dam/assets/140205153125-bionic-hand-video-tease
.jpg

Ten years ago on New Year's Eve, Dennis Aabo Sorensen was launching
fireworks when a defective rocket blew up. He was rushed to the hospital,
and his left hand was amputated.

 

 

Cool, ja?

 

spike

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From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Tue Mar 18 04:33:13 2014
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2014 20:33:13 -0800
Subject: [ExI] MH370
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB7+NyUqj3nddSg9X9cRWMQU8_YGw2gd=FV=ZPch9YfDbw@mail.gmail.com>

2000 tonne per day space
elevatorhttp://keithledgerwood.tumblr.com/post/79838944823/did-malaysian-airlines-370-disappear-using-sia68-sq68

Most reasonable explanation I have seen to date.  Accounts for more of
the public data than anything else.

Keith


From protokol2020 at gmail.com  Tue Mar 18 14:53:43 2014
From: protokol2020 at gmail.com (Tomaz Kristan)
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2014 15:53:43 +0100
Subject: [ExI] 20 yrs ago vs now
In-Reply-To: <09e201cf425d$c94c8260$5be58720$@att.net>
References: <09e201cf425d$c94c8260$5be58720$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CALMrAFSDwAN_nbxynndEyXqUo_=hy5BYggzBzkDWdPhYZUntRg@mail.gmail.com>

Cool, yes. But you know what isn't cool?  People who are "too cool to pay
any attention".

Technology for the must unthankful and dismisive generation ever.


On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 4:54 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

>
>
> Those of you who have been hanging out on ExI-chat for a long time,
> remember the kinds of stuff we were talking about here less than 20 yrs
> ago, how ethereal it seemed, so far off.  These are the top five stories
> today in the most mainstream news source there is, CNN:
>
>
>
>
>
> *Science news*
>
> *FDA considering '3-parent babies' *<http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/26/health/ivf-mitochondria/index.html?iid=article_sidebar>
>
> *updated 7:06 PM EST, Thu February 27, 2014 *
>
> *[image:
> http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/dam/assets/111012042456-newborn-baby-birth-video-tease.jpg]*<http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/26/health/ivf-mitochondria/index.html?iid=article_sidebar>
>
> A promising way to stop a deadly disease, or an uncomfortable step toward
> what one leading ethicist called eugenics?
>
> *Huge mammoth tusk discovered*<http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/14/us/seattle-mammoth-tusk/index.html?iid=article_sidebar>
>
> *updated 8:07 PM EST, Fri February 14, 2014 *
>
> *[image:
> http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/dam/assets/140214124404-mammoth-seattle-0214-video-tease.jpg]*<http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/14/us/seattle-mammoth-tusk/index.html?iid=article_sidebar>
>
> Seattle paleontologists safely removed the largest fossilized mammoth tusk
> discovered in the region from a construction site.
>
> *Human lung made in lab for first time *<http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/14/health/texas-lungs-grown/index.html?iid=article_sidebar>
>
> *updated 4:37 PM EST, Fri February 14, 2014 *
>
> *[image:
> http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/dam/assets/140214150321-lung-comparison-video-tease.jpg]*<http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/14/health/texas-lungs-grown/index.html?iid=article_sidebar>
>
> For the first time, scientists have created human lungs in a lab -- an
> exciting step forward in regenerative medicine.
>
> *Scientists control motors inside cells*<http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/12/health/nanomotors-cells-science/index.html?iid=article_sidebar>
>
> *updated 7:55 AM EST, Wed February 12, 2014 *
>
> *[image:
> http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/dam/assets/140211120350-nanoparticles-video-tease.jpg]*<http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/12/health/nanomotors-cells-science/index.html?iid=article_sidebar>
>
> Tiny rocket-shaped metal particles might one day take a wild ride inside
> your body.
>
> *Artificial hand lets amputee feel *<http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/05/health/bionic-hand/index.html?iid=article_sidebar>
>
> *updated 3:11 PM EST, Thu February 6, 2014 *
>
> *[image:
> http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/dam/assets/140205153125-bionic-hand-video-tease.jpg]*<http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/05/health/bionic-hand/index.html?iid=article_sidebar>
>
> Ten years ago on New Year's Eve, Dennis Aabo Sorensen was launching
> fireworks when a defective rocket blew up. He was rushed to the hospital,
> and his left hand was amputated.
>
>
>
>
>
> Cool, ja?
>
>
>
> spike
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>


-- 
https://protokol2020.wordpress.com/
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Tue Mar 18 15:02:58 2014
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2014 10:02:58 -0500
Subject: [ExI] (no subject)
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYMYPV=OzX51zEzkVy+Vmpn+hy7gmzzErLuqXqRf96jAA@mail.gmail.com>

Technology for the must unthankful and dismisive generation ever.

Yeah, well, every generation once removed says that, going to about 2000
B.C.  "They take everything for granted, no matter how much more we
suffered........, they are rude and wild and will turn out bad..."  Old,
old words.   bill
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Tue Mar 18 17:44:33 2014
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2014 13:44:33 -0400
Subject: [ExI] (no subject)
Message-ID: <CAJPayv2MmJO7X8yWtf6HOcHpjMSfJjXEgw+UKf6YZPaKXzYXZQ@mail.gmail.com>

Gravity waves have just been detected in the variations of the polarization
of the microwave radiation from the Big Bang; and so it looks like Cosmic
Inflation Theory is correct, and the idea that there are other universes is
probably true too. This could be a bigger physics story than even the
discovery of the Higgs Boson.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2014/03/18/291134088/watch-physicist-gets-smoking-gun-proof-of-his-theory

 John K Clark
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From scerir at alice.it  Tue Mar 18 17:35:44 2014
From: scerir at alice.it (scerir)
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2014 18:35:44 +0100
Subject: [ExI] how heavy are double-slit apparatuses?
In-Reply-To: <CAAc1gFh83nWSuORy_eJF3_yAPWJUxLgcYJjMpiXHDHkqkxjBpg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAc1gFh83nWSuORy_eJF3_yAPWJUxLgcYJjMpiXHDHkqkxjBpg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E56390DBD4F54C99BDA05FDA8B774B67@PCserafino>

Rafal:

> But, if the weight of the macroscopic apparatus changes only by the weight
> of interfering entities, a very minute value, then perhaps it's something that
> has not been measured yet.

There is a general  theorem, the Wigner-Araki-Yanase (WAY) theorem, according to which the
presence of *a* conserved quantity imposes a limitation on the measurement process.

WAY showed that one cannot *precisely* measure observables which do not commute with
*that*
conserved quantity (no, nothing to do with HUP). There is a trade-off between the
distinguishability of the final states of the system under measurement and the apparatus.
The uncertainty of the measurement can be made arbitrarily small, provided that the
measuring apparatus is sufficiently large and heavy.

But I do not know whether that theorem may be relevant here, or not.

Notice that quantum interference experiments are not performed "in vacuo", in vacuum, and
sometimes they are also performed in water!

As for the `many interacting worlds' (MIW) interpretation it is possible, imo, that
conservation of energy doesn't apply (or must be redefined), like in MWI.




From spike66 at att.net  Tue Mar 18 22:21:06 2014
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2014 15:21:06 -0700
Subject: [ExI] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv2MmJO7X8yWtf6HOcHpjMSfJjXEgw+UKf6YZPaKXzYXZQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv2MmJO7X8yWtf6HOcHpjMSfJjXEgw+UKf6YZPaKXzYXZQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <01f201cf42f8$5fbb8080$1f328180$@att.net>

 

 

From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of John Clark
Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2014 10:45 AM
To: ExI chat list
Subject: [ExI] (no subject)

 

>.Gravity waves have just been detected in the variations of the
polarization of the microwave radiation from the Big Bang; and so it looks
like Cosmic Inflation Theory is correct, and the idea that there are other
universes is probably true too. This could be a bigger physics story than
even the discovery of the Higgs Boson.


http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2014/03/18/291134088/watch-physicist-get
s-smoking-gun-proof-of-his-theory 

 John K Clark

 

 

Understatement, not could be a bigger story, it is a way bigger story.  We
knew the Higgs was there.  This gravity wave confirmation is one I just
couldn't get my head around.  This is the biggest physics story since
Perlmutter's findings in about 1998, and that one really blew my mind.

 

spike  

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From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Tue Mar 18 23:28:50 2014
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2014 15:28:50 -0800
Subject: [ExI] MH370
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB68j5AXbwrh0OLQLACJ4NS4F0PF72hs4X5Y6X-+=Fro5Q@mail.gmail.com>

For those following this story, this went viral, with fairly wide
acceptance among aviation people and Tom Clancy fans (he used this
dodge in one of his stories).

It lends itself to a fairly easy test.  Compare the ACARS pings with
those from the Singapore Airlines flight.

Keith

PS.  I wonder if the next time we see this 777 it will be a front view.


From kellycoinguy at gmail.com  Wed Mar 19 17:30:42 2014
From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2014 11:30:42 -0600
Subject: [ExI] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv2MmJO7X8yWtf6HOcHpjMSfJjXEgw+UKf6YZPaKXzYXZQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv2MmJO7X8yWtf6HOcHpjMSfJjXEgw+UKf6YZPaKXzYXZQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPy8RwbJJFNeHSyGcKp3=VOQKXF87Rztqrbc3oCS=wZN9QybVg@mail.gmail.com>

So nice that they visited in person. Like the Publisher's Clearing House
people... LOL

-Kelly


On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 11:44 AM, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

> Gravity waves have just been detected in the variations of the
> polarization of the microwave radiation from the Big Bang; and so it looks
> like Cosmic Inflation Theory is correct, and the idea that there are other
> universes is probably true too. This could be a bigger physics story than
> even the discovery of the Higgs Boson.
>
>
> http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2014/03/18/291134088/watch-physicist-gets-smoking-gun-proof-of-his-theory
>
>  John K Clark
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From kellycoinguy at gmail.com  Wed Mar 19 17:36:07 2014
From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2014 11:36:07 -0600
Subject: [ExI] 20 yrs ago vs now
In-Reply-To: <09e201cf425d$c94c8260$5be58720$@att.net>
References: <09e201cf425d$c94c8260$5be58720$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAPy8RwayGTeitjgYrOY-Tip19xtGm2_VAh4re4h1MqMVLEx9qQ@mail.gmail.com>

It's great to be alive to see this stuff. I can't wait for more!!!

-Kelly


On Mon, Mar 17, 2014 at 9:54 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

>
>
> Those of you who have been hanging out on ExI-chat for a long time,
> remember the kinds of stuff we were talking about here less than 20 yrs
> ago, how ethereal it seemed, so far off.  These are the top five stories
> today in the most mainstream news source there is, CNN:
>
>
>
>
>
> *Science news*
>
> *FDA considering '3-parent babies' *<http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/26/health/ivf-mitochondria/index.html?iid=article_sidebar>
>
> *updated 7:06 PM EST, Thu February 27, 2014 *
>
> *[image:
> http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/dam/assets/111012042456-newborn-baby-birth-video-tease.jpg]*<http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/26/health/ivf-mitochondria/index.html?iid=article_sidebar>
>
> A promising way to stop a deadly disease, or an uncomfortable step toward
> what one leading ethicist called eugenics?
>
> *Huge mammoth tusk discovered*<http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/14/us/seattle-mammoth-tusk/index.html?iid=article_sidebar>
>
> *updated 8:07 PM EST, Fri February 14, 2014 *
>
> *[image:
> http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/dam/assets/140214124404-mammoth-seattle-0214-video-tease.jpg]*<http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/14/us/seattle-mammoth-tusk/index.html?iid=article_sidebar>
>
> Seattle paleontologists safely removed the largest fossilized mammoth tusk
> discovered in the region from a construction site.
>
> *Human lung made in lab for first time *<http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/14/health/texas-lungs-grown/index.html?iid=article_sidebar>
>
> *updated 4:37 PM EST, Fri February 14, 2014 *
>
> *[image:
> http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/dam/assets/140214150321-lung-comparison-video-tease.jpg]*<http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/14/health/texas-lungs-grown/index.html?iid=article_sidebar>
>
> For the first time, scientists have created human lungs in a lab -- an
> exciting step forward in regenerative medicine.
>
> *Scientists control motors inside cells*<http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/12/health/nanomotors-cells-science/index.html?iid=article_sidebar>
>
> *updated 7:55 AM EST, Wed February 12, 2014 *
>
> *[image:
> http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/dam/assets/140211120350-nanoparticles-video-tease.jpg]*<http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/12/health/nanomotors-cells-science/index.html?iid=article_sidebar>
>
> Tiny rocket-shaped metal particles might one day take a wild ride inside
> your body.
>
> *Artificial hand lets amputee feel *<http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/05/health/bionic-hand/index.html?iid=article_sidebar>
>
> *updated 3:11 PM EST, Thu February 6, 2014 *
>
> *[image:
> http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/dam/assets/140205153125-bionic-hand-video-tease.jpg]*<http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/05/health/bionic-hand/index.html?iid=article_sidebar>
>
> Ten years ago on New Year's Eve, Dennis Aabo Sorensen was launching
> fireworks when a defective rocket blew up. He was rushed to the hospital,
> and his left hand was amputated.
>
>
>
>
>
> Cool, ja?
>
>
>
> spike
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From bbenzai at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 20 14:21:32 2014
From: bbenzai at yahoo.com (Ben)
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2014 14:21:32 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Gravity waves?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1395316802.1534.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.1.1395316802.1534.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <532AF96C.2010102@yahoo.com>

John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Gravity waves have just been detected in the variations of the
>> polarization of the microwave radiation from the Big Bang; and so ...

Shouldn't this be "gravity waves have been inferred from the detection 
of variations of the polarisation...", or "variations in the 
polarisation of microwave radiation is consistent with the existence of 
gravity waves...", etc.?

I'm still waiting for someone to /actually detect gravity waves/. I'm 
wondering why we can't seem to detect them directly, even though we can 
detect things as ghostly as neutrinos?

Ben Zaiboc


From spike66 at att.net  Thu Mar 20 15:30:18 2014
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2014 08:30:18 -0700
Subject: [ExI] dr. lajeunesse
Message-ID: <00e301cf4451$4d85d550$e8917ff0$@att.net>

 

Good news for those who sent best wishes and get well notes to Dr.
Lajeunesse.  I heard back from my buddy this morning, the guy who put
together the poster with our greetings:

 

. that Christine, Dr. Lajeunesse.  She is one tuff and determined chick.was
working on her black-belt and ran a marathon in China, even.  The 12-gage
buck-shot round went through her forearm and into her belly just above her
navel.  No one can figure out why she is alive.and as of the Sunday she was
her for breakfast, she looked amazingly great, and was walking up to 4-miles
a day.  Her right arm is permanently crippled and she'll never do
surgery-her first love-again.being right-handed, she can't write, even.  She
was over on Sunday before last, and had further surgery the following day,
Monday.to take bone material from her femur so to replace the missing bone
in her right forearm.  She had an email sent to me later that Monday, saying
it was successful and she was awake.Bob

 

 

Thanks again for all those who sent notes and greetings in Dr. Lajeunesse'
time of trouble.  She and I were working on an invention when the shooting
happened, so if someday you have a lodged kidney stone and they blast it
with an excimer laser, you sent get-well wishes to its co-inventor, when she
needed best wishes the most.

 

spike 

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From pharos at gmail.com  Thu Mar 20 17:58:51 2014
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2014 17:58:51 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Gravity waves?
In-Reply-To: <532AF96C.2010102@yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.1.1395316802.1534.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <532AF96C.2010102@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armjKZST6TUvR5gC_YgbWPWQ=-JGKORhO0rFWBu_4680YoA@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Mar 20, 2014 at 2:21 PM, Ben wrote:
> I'm still waiting for someone to /actually detect gravity waves/. I'm
> wondering why we can't seem to detect them directly, even though we can
> detect things as ghostly as neutrinos?
>
>

They have been trying since the 19690s. But gravitational waves are
very tiny distortions of spacetime.
See:  <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitational_wave_detector>

The best chance is LISA, the Laser Interferometer Space Antenna. But
due to NASA budget cuts, it probably won't launch until about 2028.
(By which time science might have moved on anyway).
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser_Interferometer_Space_Antenna>

Although, I've found that after consuming a bottle of Cotes du Rhone,
I do seem to be able to detect spacetime distortions. But it is
probably subjective, not really psychic powers.

BillK


From spike66 at att.net  Thu Mar 20 18:08:10 2014
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2014 11:08:10 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Gravity waves?
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armjKZST6TUvR5gC_YgbWPWQ=-JGKORhO0rFWBu_4680YoA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1395316802.1534.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <532AF96C.2010102@yahoo.com>
 <CAL_armjKZST6TUvR5gC_YgbWPWQ=-JGKORhO0rFWBu_4680YoA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <022601cf4467$5ac824a0$10586de0$@att.net>


>... On Behalf Of BillK

>...Although, I've found that after consuming a bottle of Cotes du Rhone, I
do seem to be able to detect spacetime distortions. But it is probably
subjective, not really psychic powers.

BillK
_______________________________________________



Ah, so it was YOU doing that BillK.  I was minding my own business the other
day and suddenly wondered, All right who's the yahoo distorting the
spacetime...

That gravity wave business gets cooler with every paper I read on it.  I
remember hearing about the concept since my misspent childhood, and now I
live to see it being detected.

spike



From mbb386 at main.nc.us  Thu Mar 20 19:05:28 2014
From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB)
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2014 15:05:28 -0400
Subject: [ExI] dr. lajeunesse
In-Reply-To: <00e301cf4451$4d85d550$e8917ff0$@att.net>
References: <00e301cf4451$4d85d550$e8917ff0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <9089318f6785b6dc34fe8e71bb304eb4.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>

Wow! I'm gonna send her another card. :)  She sounds so
far out of my league she's plumb out of sight, but it must
be hard to lose your firstlove specialty. Damn.

It's funny that way, though. I had a friend who loved
singing, she got throat cancer and they removed her
larynx. My cousin was a watercolor artist and went blind.

Some folks just turn their face to the wall and shut down.
Others get up and hop to it, finding some new specialty.
What makes that happen?

Thanks for the update, spike. :)

Regards,
MB



>
>
> Good news for those who sent best wishes and get well
> notes to Dr.
> Lajeunesse.  I heard back from my buddy this morning, the
> guy who put
> together the poster with our greetings:
>
>
>
> . that Christine, Dr. Lajeunesse.  She is one tuff and
> determined chick.was
> working on her black-belt and ran a marathon in China,
> even.  The 12-gage
> buck-shot round went through her forearm and into her
> belly just above her
> navel.  No one can figure out why she is alive.and as of
> the Sunday she was
> her for breakfast, she looked amazingly great, and was
> walking up to 4-miles
> a day.  Her right arm is permanently crippled and she'll
> never do
> surgery-her first love-again.being right-handed, she can't
> write, even.  She
> was over on Sunday before last, and had further surgery
> the following day,
> Monday.to take bone material from her femur so to replace
> the missing bone
> in her right forearm.  She had an email sent to me later
> that Monday, saying
> it was successful and she was awake.Bob
>
>
>
>
>
> Thanks again for all those who sent notes and greetings in
> Dr. Lajeunesse'
> time of trouble.  She and I were working on an invention
> when the shooting
> happened, so if someday you have a lodged kidney stone and
> they blast it
> with an excimer laser, you sent get-well wishes to its
> co-inventor, when she
> needed best wishes the most.
>
>
>
> spike
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>



From johnkclark at gmail.com  Thu Mar 20 19:52:33 2014
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2014 15:52:33 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Gravity waves?
In-Reply-To: <532AF96C.2010102@yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.1.1395316802.1534.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <532AF96C.2010102@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv0ObXH9TgHcn65587cq-vQTAvEDEmiEEcimYC=Zk4mrCg@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Mar 20, 2014 at 10:21 AM, Ben <bbenzai at yahoo.com> wrote:

>
>  >> Gravity waves have just been detected in the variations of the
>>> polarization of the microwave radiation from the Big Bang; and so ...
>>>
>>
> > Shouldn't this be "gravity waves have been inferred from the detection
> of variations of the polarisation...", or "variations in the polarisation
> of microwave radiation is consistent with the existence of gravity
> waves...", etc.?
>

How is that fundamentally different from "electromagnetic light waves have
been inferred from the chemical changes made in the retina of our eye" ?
And to me the important thing isn't that gravity waves have been detected,
that's happened before with the decay in the orbits of twin Neutron Stars,
but that the gravity waves had just the strength and polarization that
Inflation theory said they should have from the Big Bang and most competing
theories can now be ruled out.  And it's very difficult to  make sense out
of inflation theory, that is to say there is no way to understand how it
could ever stop, without invoking the multiverse.

For every volume in which the inflation field decays away in 2 other
volumes the field doesn't decay. So one universe becomes 3, the field
decays in one universe but not in the other 2, then both of those two
universes splits in 3 again and the inflation field decays away in one and
doesn't decay in 2 others, and it goes on forever. So what we call "The Big
Bang" isn't the beginning of everything it's just the end of inflation in
our particular part of the universe. So according to Inflation this field
created one Big Bang, then 2, then 4, then 8, then 16 etc in a unending
process.


> > I'm still waiting for someone to /actually detect gravity waves/.


Wouldn't that be  "gravity waves have been inferred from the small
movements of 2 mirrors placed 4 kilometers apart "?


> > I'm wondering why we can't seem to detect them directly
>

How can you see anything directly?

  John K Clark
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From gsantostasi at gmail.com  Thu Mar 20 20:37:39 2014
From: gsantostasi at gmail.com (Giovanni Santostasi)
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2014 15:37:39 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Gravity waves?
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv0ObXH9TgHcn65587cq-vQTAvEDEmiEEcimYC=Zk4mrCg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1395316802.1534.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <532AF96C.2010102@yahoo.com>
 <CAJPayv0ObXH9TgHcn65587cq-vQTAvEDEmiEEcimYC=Zk4mrCg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL+RtPeMUBi0mcApb4woiDgJ_2J+_DSpZEEHFWFr0TgGoXK3uA@mail.gmail.com>

I have to run to airport but my dissertation was on Gravitational Waves and
I have done research on this topic (now I work mostly in neuroscience
though).
I will try to answer to the questions when I come back online.

Giovanni


On Thu, Mar 20, 2014 at 2:52 PM, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thu, Mar 20, 2014 at 10:21 AM, Ben <bbenzai at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>  >> Gravity waves have just been detected in the variations of the
>>>> polarization of the microwave radiation from the Big Bang; and so ...
>>>>
>>>
>> > Shouldn't this be "gravity waves have been inferred from the detection
>> of variations of the polarisation...", or "variations in the polarisation
>> of microwave radiation is consistent with the existence of gravity
>> waves...", etc.?
>>
>
> How is that fundamentally different from "electromagnetic light waves have
> been inferred from the chemical changes made in the retina of our eye" ?
> And to me the important thing isn't that gravity waves have been detected,
> that's happened before with the decay in the orbits of twin Neutron Stars,
> but that the gravity waves had just the strength and polarization that
> Inflation theory said they should have from the Big Bang and most competing
> theories can now be ruled out.  And it's very difficult to  make sense out
> of inflation theory, that is to say there is no way to understand how it
> could ever stop, without invoking the multiverse.
>
> For every volume in which the inflation field decays away in 2 other
> volumes the field doesn't decay. So one universe becomes 3, the field
> decays in one universe but not in the other 2, then both of those two
> universes splits in 3 again and the inflation field decays away in one and
> doesn't decay in 2 others, and it goes on forever. So what we call "The Big
> Bang" isn't the beginning of everything it's just the end of inflation in
> our particular part of the universe. So according to Inflation this field
> created one Big Bang, then 2, then 4, then 8, then 16 etc in a unending
> process.
>
>
>> > I'm still waiting for someone to /actually detect gravity waves/.
>
>
> Wouldn't that be  "gravity waves have been inferred from the small
> movements of 2 mirrors placed 4 kilometers apart "?
>
>
>> > I'm wondering why we can't seem to detect them directly
>>
>
> How can you see anything directly?
>
>   John K Clark
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From fortean1 at mindspring.com  Thu Mar 20 16:17:10 2014
From: fortean1 at mindspring.com (Terry W. Colvin)
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2014 23:17:10 +0700 (GMT+07:00)
Subject: [ExI] *UFOs and Water*
Message-ID: <10284183.1395332231442.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hybrid.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

*UFOs and Water*
? on: Today at 10:56:29 AM ?


I would like to recommend this book.  I have yet to buy and read it myself.
I have read the excerpts available at Carl Feindt's, the author's, web site.

If you go to my website: http://www.waterufo.net/menu.htm

http://waterufo.net/book
This link is not very friendly.  Here is another source:
http://www.abebooks.co.uk/servlet/SearchResults?an=Carl+Feindt&sts=t&tn=UFOs+and+Water

Terry





Re: ZDS -- PROJECT BLUE BOOK - UFO/MERINT - SS OCEAN STAR(CALL SIGN:KING) & SS KING OF TRITON/BETWEEN PORTUGAL & MOROCCO - LAT.LONG 35.56N 008.01W/ABOUT 137 MILES SOUTH SOUTH WEST OF THE CENTRAL POINT OF THE STRAIT OF GIBRALTAR
- 22 APR 59
Date: Mar 20, 2014 9:33 PM

Amazon.com   Title is "UFOs and Water"  Published 2010. What  I'm working on now is the 2nd edition of the same book with adds to 5 chapters.

If you go to my website: http://www.waterufo.net/menu.htm

The book is on that page. Click on: Click Here for Book Information and Ordering
there's a bunch of stuff there for you to gander at. Got rave reviews from the big guys in ufology. 

I & my editor have just about finished the added text BUT the horror part is RENUMBERING everything to make it come out right.
If you decide to get the book as it is now, I can send you the files with the adds later.

Enjoy
Carl


From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1 at mindspring.com>
To: Carl Feindt <waterufo at prodigy.net>
Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2014 10:22 AM
Subject: Re: ZDS -- PROJECT BLUE BOOK - UFO/MERINT - SS OCEAN STAR(CALL SIGN:KING) & SS KING OF TRITON/BETWEEN PORTUGAL & MOROCCO - LAT.LONG 35.56N 008.01W/ABOUT 137 MILES SOUTH SOUTH WEST OF THE CENTRAL POINT OF THE STRAIT OF GIBRALTAR - 22 APR 59


Howdy Carl,

I figured you were busy and writing a book, an unknown experience for me, must be an arduous task.  I have two
writer 'friends' on Facebook who comment on their writing from time to time.

Yes, a MERINT at sea sighting is the basic report.  I know that unknown coming out or going into water is a somewhat
rare event.  I recall only one in either California or Washington.

I searched your site but could not find this sighting.

Please let me know the working title of your book.  Perhaps when published I can suggest to subscribers on several
mailing lists.

You're most welcome.  If I find more of these water and/or MERINT reports in the PBB files I will surely pass on to you,
especially if not listed at your site.

Best wishes,

Terry





    -----Original Message-----
    From: Carl Feindt
    Sent: Mar 20, 2014 5:21 PM
    To: "Terry W. Colvin"
    Subject: Re: ZDS -- PROJECT BLUE BOOK - UFO/MERINT - SS OCEAN STAR(CALL SIGN:KING) & SS KING OF TRITON/BETWEEN PORTUGAL & MOROCCO - LAT.LONG 35.56N 008.01W/ABOUT 137 MILES SOUTH SOUTH WEST OF THE CENTRAL POINT OF THE STRAIT OF GIBRALTAR - 22 APR 59

    Hi Terry,
    I have been bogged down with additions to my book in Ch-2-5 & 11.
    I've gone through my cases but didn't see it in 1959. Could you give me the date I have it under?

    Also it seems that this was not a water case as I see it. Over water but with no affect upon it.
    However it would be a good example of a MERINT report, so I would use it for that purpose.
    I have it logged I my "need to be entered" cases under 04-22-1959 and have printed your e-mail as a reference.

    Many thanks. Hope that by this summer I'll be back in full swing again.
    Best wishes
    Carl



    From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean1 at mindspring.com>
    To: Carl Feindt MERINT/Water <waterufo at prodigy.net>
    Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2014 3:30 AM
    Subject: ZDS -- PROJECT BLUE BOOK - UFO/MERINT - SS OCEAN STAR(CALL SIGN:KING) & SS KING OF TRITON/BETWEEN PORTUGAL & MOROCCO - LAT.LONG 35.56N 008.01W/ABOUT 137 MILES SOUTH SOUTH WEST OF THE CENTRAL POINT OF THE STRAIT OF GIBRALTAR - 22 APR 59

    Hello Carl,

    I don't know how active you are nowadays in updating your water ufo list.
    Here is a two-ship MERINT report from April 1959.

    Terry




    PTTUZDSW RUMOUHA1483 0781148-UUUU--RUCICSB.
    ZNR UUUUU ZDS //VOL CCN - ADDING SS KING OF TRITON//
    RUCICSB T AUTODIN MODE V
    RUEOEHA T RULPALJ
    P R 190555Z MAR 14 ZDS //VOL CCN - ADDING SS KING OF TRITON//
    FM COMMCEN CAMP SAMAE SAN TH//TERRY C//
    TO RUCICSB/AUTODIN MODE V//COMMCENTER-7//
    RUMKC/AIG 600
    INFO ZEN2/CDRUSARSUPTHAI CAMP SAMAE SAN TH//S-2/PAO/MEDTC/CILTHAI//
    RUEOEHA/USCINCSO QUARRY HEIGHTS PN//SCJ2/INTAFF/POLAD/NCR/SCJ6/SSO//
    BT
    UNCLAS

    ( TWC: TI LINE IS ILLEGIBLE. )
    PP RJEDSQ
    ZEL ( TWC: ZEL IS CORRECTED COPY. )
    CZCXHQA147
    PP RJEZBF RJEDSQ
    DE RJEZHQ 824
    P 281520Z ( TWC: APR 59 )
    FM HQUSAF
    TO RJEZBF/SPACE TRACK HANSCOM AFB
    RJEDSQ/ATIC
    Y 271410Z



    PAGE 02 RUMOUHA1483 UNCLAS
    FM COMEASTAREA NEW YORK NY
    TO RJWFAL/CINCNORAD
    RBEKZC/COMASDEFORLANT
    RJEZHQ/CHIEF OF STAFF USAF
    INFO RBEPJD/CONDT COGARD
    USCG GRNC
    BT
    UNCLAS OBM 1331Z/27 APR FOLLOWING RECEIVED FR SS OCEAN/KING
    QUOTE BT FOR RELAY TO WHOMEVER DEEMED ADVISABLE BT THE FOLLOWING
    REPORT WAS LOGGED APRIL 22ND 1959 BUT ONLY LATER DECIDED IT MAY HAVE
    BEEN DISCOVERER TWO COLON APRIL 22ND 1950GCT LAT 35.56N LONG 8.01.5W
    ALTITUDE ABOUT TWENTY FIVE DEGREES BEARING FRTM 250 DEGREES TO 290
    DEGREES FIREY BALL TRAVELING SOUTH TO NORTH CURVED TRACK VERY LARGE
    ABOUT FOUR SECONDS DURATION SHIPS COURSE 270 DEGREES SPEED 11.12 KNOTS
    BT SS OCEAN STAR/KING OF TRITION SS CT 26 BROADWAY NYC UNQUOTE BT WCC
    MSG RCD AT WCC 1150 GMT ON 12 MCS
    BT
    CFN 1331Z/27 22ND 1959 22ND 1950GCT 35.56N 8.01.5W 250 290 270 11.12
    25 1150 12
    28/1521Z APR RJEZHQ



    PAGE 03 RUMOUHA1483 UNCLAS
    -------------------

                      MEMO ROUTING SLIP

    MAJ FRIEND - 4E4

    REMARKS: THIS IS BEING RELAYED TO YOU FOR EVALUATION, OR YOU DON'T SEEM TO
    HAVE BEEN ON THE DISTRIBUTION.  THE SUBJECT OF THIS REPORT IS NOT A SATELLITE.
    IN PARTICULAR DISCOVER II (1959 INFINITY SIGN), WAS STILL IN ORBIT SUBSEQUENT
    TO 22 APRIL.

    FROM: LT HAMILTON                                29 APRIL
          4E4                                        60370

    ------------------------------------------------------

    ( TWC: PROJECT 10073 RECORD CARD EXCERPTS ''10. BRIEF SUMMARY OF SIGHTING: FIREY
      BALL TRAVELING SOUTH TO NORTH ON A CURVED TRACK. VERY LARGE.
      11. COMMENTS:  INFORMATION LIMITED IN NATURE. HOWEVER, DESCRIPTION IS TYPICAL
      OF A METEOR.'' )



    PAGE 04 RUMOUHA1483 UNCLAS
    ( TWC: THIS 'METEOR' HAD A CURVE AND IT WAS NOT A SATELLITE. )

    ( TWC: SS KING OF TRITON, SEE
      http://www.clydesite.co.uk/clydebuilt/viewship.asp?id=2625. NOTE: "PROBLEM AT
      SEA" EPISODE IN AGATHA CHRISTIE'S POIROT TELEVISION SERIES. SS OCEAN KING, SEE:
      NOTHING FOUND EXCEPT ONE SHIP IN SERVICE 1980-83 UNDER THAT NAME. OCEAN LINERS:
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Ocean_liners. )

    ( TWC: DOCUMENTS BEGIN AT http://www.fold3.com/image/8405772/. )

    ((PROJECT BLUE BOOK - UFO/MERINT - SS OCEAN STAR(CALL SIGN:KING) & SS KING OF TRITON/BETWEEN PORTUGAL & MOROCCO - LAT.LONG 35.56N 008.01W/ABOUT 137 MILES SOUTH SOUTH WEST OF THE CENTRAL POINT OF THE STRAIT OF GIBRALTAR - 22 APR 59))
    BT
    #1483







    NNNN


Re: *UFOs and Water*
? Reply #1 on: Today at 11:05:32 AM ?


Carl Feindt goes into great detail to discuss UFOs and the association with water.

A good companion book, which I have read, is *Invisible Residents* by Ivan T. Sanderson. Now a much cheaper book, since it was published long ago in 1970, and reissued in 2005 with an introduction by David Hatcher Childress.  This sort of taints the book but the original data by Ivan is still good.  Note: Ivan died in 1973 while I was serving in Thailand.

See: http://www.abebooks.co.uk/servlet/SearchResults?kn=invisible+residents&sts=t&x=44&y=15

Also at: http://www.amazon.com/Invisible-Residents-Reality-Underwater-UFOs/dp/1931882207


Terry


Terry W. Colvin
Ladphrao (Bangkok), Thailand
Pran Buri (Hua Hin), Thailand
http://tlc-brotherhood.net/TLCB_Forum.html ( guests welcome )
http://terrycolvin.freewebsites.com/
[Terry's Fortean & "Work" itty-bitty site]



From bbenzai at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 21 20:59:37 2014
From: bbenzai at yahoo.com (Ben)
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2014 20:59:37 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Gravity waves?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1395403201.9526.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.1.1395403201.9526.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <532CA839.7070708@yahoo.com>

John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

 >On Thu, Mar 20, 2014 at 10:21 AM, Ben <bbenzai at yahoo.com> wrote:

 >> Shouldn't this be "gravity waves have been inferred from the detection
 >> of variations of the polarisation...", or "variations in the 
polarisation
 >> of microwave radiation is consistent with the existence of gravity
 >> waves...", etc.?
 >>
 >
 >How is that fundamentally different from "electromagnetic light waves have
 >been inferred from the chemical changes made in the retina of our eye" ?

The difference is the degree of separation between the thing and the 
observer.  The more steps there are, the more uncertainty there is about 
what is causing the result.  There's a difference between a brick 
falling on your foot, and you reading a message where someone claims 
that a friend of a friend suffered a brick to the foot. There are fewer 
possible interpretations for one than for the other, and a different 
degree of certainty about the existence of the brick.

Observations of polarisation of microwaves is detection of gravity waves 
in the same sense that observation of blonde hairs on a lapel is 
detection of a cheating husband.

Ben Zaiboc


From kellycoinguy at gmail.com  Wed Mar 26 11:07:20 2014
From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2014 05:07:20 -0600
Subject: [ExI] MH370
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB7+NyUqj3nddSg9X9cRWMQU8_YGw2gd=FV=ZPch9YfDbw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB7+NyUqj3nddSg9X9cRWMQU8_YGw2gd=FV=ZPch9YfDbw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPy8RwZAycB3fbDhc+GDwD2=n2-6XhYSLEcOUYOeaUQzOFBeoA@mail.gmail.com>

The best explanation I've heard thus far is this one. It's simple and
believable.

http://www.businessinsider.com/malaysia-plane-fire-2014-3

-Kelly


On Mon, Mar 17, 2014 at 10:33 PM, Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com>wrote:

> 2000 tonne per day space
> elevatorhttp://
> keithledgerwood.tumblr.com/post/79838944823/did-malaysian-airlines-370-disappear-using-sia68-sq68
>
> Most reasonable explanation I have seen to date.  Accounts for more of
> the public data than anything else.
>
> Keith
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike66 at att.net  Wed Mar 26 14:52:36 2014
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2014 07:52:36 -0700
Subject: [ExI] MH370
In-Reply-To: <CAPy8RwZAycB3fbDhc+GDwD2=n2-6XhYSLEcOUYOeaUQzOFBeoA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB7+NyUqj3nddSg9X9cRWMQU8_YGw2gd=FV=ZPch9YfDbw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPy8RwZAycB3fbDhc+GDwD2=n2-6XhYSLEcOUYOeaUQzOFBeoA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <057b01cf4903$07b86bd0$17294370$@att.net>

 

 

From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Kelly Anderson
Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2014 4:07 AM
To: ExI chat list
Subject: Re: [ExI] MH370

 

The best explanation I've heard thus far is this one. It's simple and
believable.

 

http://www.businessinsider.com/malaysia-plane-fire-2014-3

 

-Kelly

 

 

An onboard fire is what I thought too.  It would explain the climb: the
pilots hoped to put it out by getting above most of the oxygen.  Yesterday I
heard for the first time they had in the cargo hold a bunch of lithium
batteries.  If a lithium battery hermetic seal fails, lithium is exposed to
air, catches fire, chain reaction fire by causing the adjacent seal to fail
and getting it burning too, no stopping it, not even by climbing.  

 

Here's an instructive example of a lithium battery chain reaction fire:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pphr7WyNBWU

 

spike

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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Wed Mar 26 17:31:27 2014
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2014 13:31:27 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Gravity waves?
In-Reply-To: <532CA839.7070708@yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.1.1395403201.9526.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <532CA839.7070708@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv0J6=xaOb0dyj45JnZcq1WpR7EHQHVj6BB6Abw3U-q48w@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 4:59 PM, Ben <bbenzai at yahoo.com> wrote:

>>>> Shouldn't this be "gravity waves have been inferred from the
>>>> detectionof variations of the polarisation...", or "variations in the
>>>> polarisationof microwave radiation is consistent with the existence of
>>>> gravity waves...",
>>>>
>>>
>>
> >>> How is that fundamentally different from "electromagnetic light waves
>>> have been inferred from the chemical changes made in the retina of our eye"?
>>>
>>
>> >> The difference is the degree of separation between the thing and the
>> observer.  The more steps there are, the more uncertainty there is about
>> what is causing the result.  There's a difference between a brick falling
>> on your foot, and you reading a message where someone claims that a friend
>> of a friend suffered a brick to the foot. There are fewer possible
>> interpretations for one than for the other, and a different degree of
>> certainty about the existence of the brick.
>>
>
> > Observations of polarisation of microwaves is detection of gravity waves
> in the same sense that observation of blonde hairs on a lapel is detection
> of a cheating husband.
>

In one case we observe the polarization of microwaves and deduce that the
polarization was caused by gravity waves, in the other case we observe
movement of the mirrors of a LIGO detector and deduce that the movement was
caused by gravity waves. It seems like a comparable degree of separation
between the thing and the observer to me, except that we can observe the
mirrors with our eyes (although we'd need instruments to see them in
sufficient detail to see them move) but we can't see microwaves.

  John K Clark
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Thu Mar 27 00:35:26 2014
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2014 17:35:26 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Is James Swayze okay?
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy3ZQQSL5KGCaXWBkThDrHBfZtsjjhnXBeTjvFU02RxRbQ@mail.gmail.com>

I have tried getting an email reply from James Swayze, a friend, and a
quadriplegic cryonicist, with no luck, and I fear for the worst.  He lives
with family, so if the worst happened, they would quickly know.  Is anyone
here in contact with him?


Thank you,

John
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From ginakathleenmiller at gmail.com  Thu Mar 27 01:36:15 2014
From: ginakathleenmiller at gmail.com (Gina Miller)
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2014 19:36:15 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Is James Swayze okay?
In-Reply-To: <CAGSKFy3ZQQSL5KGCaXWBkThDrHBfZtsjjhnXBeTjvFU02RxRbQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGSKFy3ZQQSL5KGCaXWBkThDrHBfZtsjjhnXBeTjvFU02RxRbQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMd8APxhqLr1AQXAy6E-X6DTBbL4-NnN2mN=ZNkCfh1WhVCj=w@mail.gmail.com>

Not for quite some time no.


On Wed, Mar 26, 2014 at 6:35 PM, John Grigg <possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com>wrote:

> I have tried getting an email reply from James Swayze, a friend, and a
> quadriplegic cryonicist, with no luck, and I fear for the worst.  He lives
> with family, so if the worst happened, they would quickly know.  Is anyone
> here in contact with him?
>
>
> Thank you,
>
> John
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>


-- 
Gina Miller

www.nanogirl.com
www.nanoindustries.com
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Sat Mar 29 17:32:47 2014
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2014 13:32:47 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Climate models
Message-ID: <CAJPayv3DN7h2pBFoPv8y1C+rZQqaXwWm3xu_jJdrAZAt2WMvyw@mail.gmail.com>

In the current issue of Science News is a article about clouds and it
confirms that clouds are the single biggest unknown in climate models.
Everybody agrees that clouds warm things through the greenhouse effect at
night and cool things by reflecting sunlight during the day, and everybody
agrees that the cooling effect is larger than the heating effect, but they
disagree about just how much larger and on if we will have more clouds in
the future or less. And a recently discovered fact complicates things
further, clouds made of ice crystals and water droplets reflect light about
equally but the ice crystal clouds have a stronger greenhouse effect than
water clouds. As a result of all this confusion and uncertainty are rampant.

Back in 2007 the United Nations issued a report on climate change, it said
that by 2100 things would be between 2 and 4.5 degrees warmer than now, a
rather large amount of uncertainty; but after spending millions of dollars
and 7 years of hard work they just issued a new report, and their
uncertainty has actually INCREASED.  Now they say between 1.5 and 4.5.  The
article also notes somewhat apologetically (Science News is a honest
magazine but always leans toward the environmentalist view) that after 3
decades of increasing temperatures since 1998 the worldwide temperature has
been roughly constant, and no climate model in 1998 predicted this. They
conclude by saying "scientists say they need at least 20 to 30 years to
determine if clouds respond to global warming the way simulations predict".

I have to say all this doesn't exactly give me confidence that I should bet
my life on the fact that although they make lousy 17 year predictions
climate models make wonderful 100 year predictions.

  John K Clark
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From pharos at gmail.com  Sat Mar 29 19:14:35 2014
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2014 19:14:35 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Climate models
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv3DN7h2pBFoPv8y1C+rZQqaXwWm3xu_jJdrAZAt2WMvyw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv3DN7h2pBFoPv8y1C+rZQqaXwWm3xu_jJdrAZAt2WMvyw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armjAS3e6LEiSegRPCK3H3n6Kv35d5-9ccy2a0K+3KsBGwg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Mar 29, 2014 at 5:32 PM, John Clark wrote:
> In the current issue of Science News is a article about clouds and it
> confirms that clouds are the single biggest unknown in climate models.
> Everybody agrees that clouds warm things through the greenhouse effect at
> night and cool things by reflecting sunlight during the day, and everybody
> agrees that the cooling effect is larger than the heating effect, but they
> disagree about just how much larger and on if we will have more clouds in
> the future or less. And a recently discovered fact complicates things
> further, clouds made of ice crystals and water droplets reflect light about
> equally but the ice crystal clouds have a stronger greenhouse effect than
> water clouds. As a result of all this confusion and uncertainty are rampant.
>
<snip>

> I have to say all this doesn't exactly give me confidence that I should bet
> my life on the fact that although they make lousy 17 year predictions
> climate models make wonderful 100 year predictions.
>
>

I wouldn't fret too much about climatologists having difficulty
putting clouds into their climate models.

I prefer to fret about the real world. Like Arctic ice and frozen
tundra melting. Or closer to your home, tropical pests and diseases
spreading further north every year.

<http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2013/09/03/2561931/crop-pests-climate-change/>

Quote:
The study, published in Nature Climate Change, examined 612 crop pests
and pathogens. Tropical insects, fungi, and bacteria are moving at a
rate of 1.7 miles a year toward regions normally considered too cold
for them to thrive. Warmer weather has greatly expanded these pests'
territories, threatening crops unequipped with defenses against these
new enemies.

American species are already feeling the effects. The mountain pine
beetle, for instance, has migrated to warming forests in the Pacific
Northwest, wreaking havoc on millions of acres of forest in what may
be the largest forest insect blight ever seen in North America.
Fusarium head blight, another pest attracted to warmer and wetter
conditions up north, has decimated American wheat and oat crops,
costing farmers billions of dollars. Still more pests are steadily
making their way northward.
-------------------

BillK


From johnkclark at gmail.com  Sun Mar 30 15:36:55 2014
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2014 11:36:55 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Climate models
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armjAS3e6LEiSegRPCK3H3n6Kv35d5-9ccy2a0K+3KsBGwg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv3DN7h2pBFoPv8y1C+rZQqaXwWm3xu_jJdrAZAt2WMvyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armjAS3e6LEiSegRPCK3H3n6Kv35d5-9ccy2a0K+3KsBGwg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv3-nB=kaba4A9yBMxtqA8aOkSBJsza4WAgfuZ+du=ovSQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Mar 29, 2014 at 3:14 PM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:

> I wouldn't fret too much about climatologists having difficulty putting
> clouds into their climate models.
>

You damn well should fret about it if you're using those climate models to
plan the future of 7 billion people!

> I prefer to fret about the real world.


In the real world the phrase "climate change" is not a synonym for evil or
disaster, the climate on this planet has been continually changing for the
last 4.5 billion years and I don't expect it to stop now.

 John K Clark
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From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Sun Mar 30 17:34:19 2014
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2014 10:34:19 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Climate models
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB5-z_XwaMY2io_-Znh83Ch_5LdwZfXYA4rxytqpg7zCPQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Mar 30, 2014 at 5:00 AM,  John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

snip

> I have to say all this doesn't exactly give me confidence that I should bet
> my life on the fact that although they make lousy 17 year predictions
> climate models make wonderful 100 year predictions.

It doesn't matter or effect what we should be doing one bit.  Running
out of cheap energy is far more serious than climate.  It will hit
sooner and cause more problems, including human deaths, than the worse
climate predictions.

What we need is at least one really cheap and abundant source of
energy.  It can't be carbon based because there isn't enough left that
can be obtained at a low enough price.  Ground solar and wind will not
do it because there is no apparent way to get the cost down low
enough.

Here is a dumbed down version of my thoughts on how to solve the problem.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5iotdmmTJQsSzVYQ2Q0YUtCMERRczdYSXMtUWphUl92aHFN/edit?usp=sharing

Keith


From pharos at gmail.com  Sun Mar 30 18:20:59 2014
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2014 19:20:59 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Climate models
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB5-z_XwaMY2io_-Znh83Ch_5LdwZfXYA4rxytqpg7zCPQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB5-z_XwaMY2io_-Znh83Ch_5LdwZfXYA4rxytqpg7zCPQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armiyb7Y1vkTELZ9zDayZqQEaECfdzPJ6MU6361b4zSNvuQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Mar 30, 2014 at 6:34 PM, Keith Henson wrote:
> What we need is at least one really cheap and abundant source of
> energy.  It can't be carbon based because there isn't enough left that
> can be obtained at a low enough price.  Ground solar and wind will not
> do it because there is no apparent way to get the cost down low
> enough.
>
>

Ground solar is getting better and cheaper every year.
Panasonic has just announced they have designed and are testing a new
'Solar Power in a shed' device. No prices or general availability yet,
but priced low enough, it will find a big demand.

<http://www.gizmag.com/panasonic-power-supply-container/31352/>
Quote:
Dimensions (mm): 4780 (W) x 3452 (L) x 3486 (H)
                 (Feet): 15.6 (W) x 11.3 (L) x 11.4 (H)

Container: Container for marine transportation
(Container: (mm) 3029 (W) x 2438 (L) x 2591 (H))

Mass: Approx. 3000 kg
Maximum inverter output: 3 kW
Total storage capacity: 17.2 kWh
Solar modules: Monocrystalline hybrid solar module "HIT" x 12
Control board: Power Supply Control Unit
Storage batteries: 12V/60Ah deep cycle valve-regulated lead-acid battery x 24
-------

BillK


From protokol2020 at gmail.com  Sun Mar 30 18:25:39 2014
From: protokol2020 at gmail.com (Tomaz Kristan)
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2014 20:25:39 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Climate models
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB5-z_XwaMY2io_-Znh83Ch_5LdwZfXYA4rxytqpg7zCPQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB5-z_XwaMY2io_-Znh83Ch_5LdwZfXYA4rxytqpg7zCPQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALMrAFQnNgU_0i2hdSM454pcnpcUOQn+G-yWx6FzmGPytcv53g@mail.gmail.com>

For now, gas and oil fracking is a nearly ideal solution. It's just great,
what those people have done. We should thank them.




On Sun, Mar 30, 2014 at 7:34 PM, Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com>wrote:

> On Sun, Mar 30, 2014 at 5:00 AM,  John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> snip
>
> > I have to say all this doesn't exactly give me confidence that I should
> bet
> > my life on the fact that although they make lousy 17 year predictions
> > climate models make wonderful 100 year predictions.
>
> It doesn't matter or effect what we should be doing one bit.  Running
> out of cheap energy is far more serious than climate.  It will hit
> sooner and cause more problems, including human deaths, than the worse
> climate predictions.
>
> What we need is at least one really cheap and abundant source of
> energy.  It can't be carbon based because there isn't enough left that
> can be obtained at a low enough price.  Ground solar and wind will not
> do it because there is no apparent way to get the cost down low
> enough.
>
> Here is a dumbed down version of my thoughts on how to solve the problem.
>
>
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5iotdmmTJQsSzVYQ2Q0YUtCMERRczdYSXMtUWphUl92aHFN/edit?usp=sharing
>
> Keith
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>



-- 
https://protokol2020.wordpress.com/
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From kanzure at gmail.com  Sun Mar 30 21:26:15 2014
From: kanzure at gmail.com (Bryan Bishop)
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2014 16:26:15 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Strangecoin
Message-ID: <CABaSBaz2Q2DGhQXKzx-c-iOyiMwu81sSKY+DPqOp3Zr81jRv2w@mail.gmail.com>

No proposed implementation but here's some fun ideas:

http://digitalinterface.blogspot.com/2014/03/strangecoin-proposal-for-nonlinear.html

"""
What's unique about Strangecoin?

   - Strangecoin transactions can be *nonzero sum*. A Strangecoin
   transaction might result in *both* parties having more Strangecoin.
   - Strangecoin transactions can be *one-sided* and can be conducted
   entirely by only one party to the transaction.
   - The rate of change of one's Strangecoin balance is a more important
   indicator of economic influence than the balance itself.
   - Optimal investment strategy in Strangecoin aims to *stabilize* one's
   balance of Strangecoin.
   - A universal account provides all users a basic Strangecoin income,
   effectively unlimited wealth, and direct feedback on the overall prosperity
   of the network.

....

As the example suggests, the dynamics of Strangecoin might be usefully
thought of in terms of a "reputation system" rather than a strictly
financial tool, even though the basic mechanics involve the regular method
of exchanging currency for goods perceived by both parties to be of equal
value. Because of the nonlinear relationships among Strangecoin users, each
user effectively draws on a network of support in each economic
transaction, coupling its activity to the successes (and failures) of the
that network of activity. The result is a model of the complex
interdependencies within a community of economic agents, and the dynamics
by which those networks develop and decay. For this reason, Strangecoin
might have implications for quantifying the role of individual choices and
responsibility in the context of corporate action, and for resolving other
difficult issues in the management and ethics of collective economic action.
"""

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7494709

"""
Other comments suggest that this can be implemented with existing tools,
which I take as a virtue of the proposal.

In any case, John von Neumann proved a long time ago that any nonzero sum
game with n players can be modeled as a zero sum game with n+1 players,
where the n+1 player represents the global state. TUA is simply an
implementation of this proof.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero-sum_game#Extensions

I tried to explain inhibition in another comment in this thread.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7496858

I give an an analogy in the proposal of the popularity of a celebrity
couple being a nonlinear relationship to the popularity of each celebrity
individually. I think our intuitive understanding of our social
relationships is nonlinear in this way generally, and I think Strangecoin
can model those nonlinear relationships well.

So, for instance, I'm imagining a family, spouses, close friends, and so on
entering into extended coupling transactions, so that as a community their
prosperity rises and falls together. I might also enter into such
transactions with certain business with whom I want to couple my
activities, and these coupling transactions might serve in lieu of direct
billing or payment. A coupling relationship with a business is effectively
a contract, but with traditional currency you need the whole legal
framework of contracts to support the transaction, and with Strangecoin the
transaction is built directly into the currency, and the interface looks
almost exactly like a point-of-sale cash transaction.

And I can enter into less serious relationships of varying degrees with
other parties. The effect is a way of managing not just financial
transactions, but also reputation, investment, and other dynamics social
constraints on the economy via the currency itself. Money is memory (
http://www.minneapolisfed.org/research/sr/sr218.pdf), but our existing
currencies only represent some aspects of our economic activity, and
therefore put limits on the memory stored in the economy. A nonlinear coin
like Strangecoin can embed that social knowledge in the currency itself,
providing a more robust memory framework on which we can conduct our
economic transactions.

I only hint at this in the proposal, but I suspect a system like this is
required to resolve the twisted legal artifice the corporate veil, because
it quantifies explicitly the role individuals have in collective economic
activity, and thereby gives a method for explicitly holding persons
proportionally responsible (in both credit and blame) for their
contributions to that activity.

But I think that's a much more radical proposal than the one I've offered
for Strangecoin, and I should probably only be defending that here. =)
"""

- Bryan
http://heybryan.org/
1 512 203 0507
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sun Mar 30 22:03:10 2014
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2014 17:03:10 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Climate models
In-Reply-To: <CALMrAFQnNgU_0i2hdSM454pcnpcUOQn+G-yWx6FzmGPytcv53g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB5-z_XwaMY2io_-Znh83Ch_5LdwZfXYA4rxytqpg7zCPQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALMrAFQnNgU_0i2hdSM454pcnpcUOQn+G-yWx6FzmGPytcv53g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYzREqncapwR2USGXQQAhDT7fjLiVnzt0gueNbpRaMj7g@mail.gmail.com>

Seen today in the New York Times:  artificial photosynthesis.  How about
that?   bill


On Sun, Mar 30, 2014 at 1:25 PM, Tomaz Kristan <protokol2020 at gmail.com>wrote:

> For now, gas and oil fracking is a nearly ideal solution. It's just great,
> what those people have done. We should thank them.
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Mar 30, 2014 at 7:34 PM, Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> On Sun, Mar 30, 2014 at 5:00 AM,  John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> snip
>>
>> > I have to say all this doesn't exactly give me confidence that I should
>> bet
>> > my life on the fact that although they make lousy 17 year predictions
>> > climate models make wonderful 100 year predictions.
>>
>> It doesn't matter or effect what we should be doing one bit.  Running
>> out of cheap energy is far more serious than climate.  It will hit
>> sooner and cause more problems, including human deaths, than the worse
>> climate predictions.
>>
>> What we need is at least one really cheap and abundant source of
>> energy.  It can't be carbon based because there isn't enough left that
>> can be obtained at a low enough price.  Ground solar and wind will not
>> do it because there is no apparent way to get the cost down low
>> enough.
>>
>> Here is a dumbed down version of my thoughts on how to solve the problem.
>>
>>
>> https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5iotdmmTJQsSzVYQ2Q0YUtCMERRczdYSXMtUWphUl92aHFN/edit?usp=sharing
>>
>> Keith
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
>
>
>
> --
> https://protokol2020.wordpress.com/
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From kellycoinguy at gmail.com  Mon Mar 31 07:57:12 2014
From: kellycoinguy at gmail.com (Kelly Anderson)
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2014 01:57:12 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Climate models
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv3DN7h2pBFoPv8y1C+rZQqaXwWm3xu_jJdrAZAt2WMvyw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv3DN7h2pBFoPv8y1C+rZQqaXwWm3xu_jJdrAZAt2WMvyw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPy8RwaekdZ4pGGDW-1Fkw-H-21f6p5fM7=Pvo9GOX6MDsu27Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Mar 29, 2014 at 11:32 AM, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

> I have to say all this doesn't exactly give me confidence that I should
> bet my life on the fact that although they make lousy 17 year predictions
> climate models make wonderful 100 year predictions.
>

The biggest question in my mind is whether or not it is worth completely
destroying the world wide economy in order to ineffectively combat a
problem whose extent and full impact is unknown.

Of course, if the real goal is in fact to destroy the world wide economy,
then by all means we should do what the global warming alarmists indicate.

-Kelly
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Mon Mar 31 16:27:25 2014
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2014 12:27:25 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Climate models
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB5-z_XwaMY2io_-Znh83Ch_5LdwZfXYA4rxytqpg7zCPQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB5-z_XwaMY2io_-Znh83Ch_5LdwZfXYA4rxytqpg7zCPQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv2k89PU7oZqy5QhObH_G5jO5V+7OSHw0g_0Lc1iXHuDAw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Mar 30, 2014 at 1:34 PM, Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com>wrote:

>
> > Running out of cheap energy is far more serious than climate.  It will
> hit sooner and cause more problems, including human deaths, than the worse
> climate predictions.
>

I agree.

> What we need is at least one really cheap and abundant source of energy.
>

Yes.


> > It can't be carbon based because there isn't enough left that can be
> obtained at a low enough price.


It probably can be for the next few decades.

> Here is a dumbed down version of my thoughts on how to solve the problem.
>
>
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5iotdmmTJQsSzVYQ2Q0YUtCMERRczdYSXMtUWphUl92aHFN/edit?usp=sharing
>

Interesting ideas and there is certainly nothing in them that would violate
the fundamental laws of physics, but it would seem to me that the
technological advancements needed to actualize this would be far far
greater than what would be required to make a Liquid Fluoride Thorium
Reactor (LFTR) practical. And I think economic projections about how long
it would take to turn a profit and how much it would cost to build and
maintain a HUGE project like that with super advanced technology unlike
anything that has ever been built before are pretty useless. And that's
another advantage LFTR has, you don't have to start colossal, you can begin
the learning curve with a small pilot plant and then grow from there.

And there is a problem that both LFTR's and your ideas have,
environmentalists won't like them; for them alternative energy sources are
fine but only if they remain strictly on paper.

 John K Clark
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From spike66 at att.net  Mon Mar 31 20:03:41 2014
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2014 13:03:41 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Hal Finney on forbes.com
In-Reply-To: <5339B9D1.4080603@crw.io>
References: <5339B9D1.4080603@crw.io>
Message-ID: <009501cf4d1c$5101f6e0$f305e4a0$@att.net>

>...From: crw [mailto:crw at crw.io] 
Subject: Hal Finney on forbes.com

http://www.forbes.com/sites/andygreenberg/2014/03/25/satoshi-nakamotos-neigh
bor-the-bitcoin-ghostwriter-who-wasnt/

...and a call for bitcoin donations on his behalf:
https://twitter.com/a_greenberg/status/450677101465595904

Maybe something for the exi-chat list.  -c.




I don't see why not.  Hal was a guiding light and an inspirational presence
here about a decade ago.  Thanks c.  spike



From alfio.puglisi at gmail.com  Mon Mar 31 22:46:32 2014
From: alfio.puglisi at gmail.com (Alfio Puglisi)
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2014 00:46:32 +0200
Subject: [ExI] BICEP2 and the Fermi paradox
Message-ID: <CAJUeD7jwDATGpTNL9rGj7W9PbM0zLV5_049tCCtB3w=-nxCpjA@mail.gmail.com>

After all the news about BICEP2's  (indirect) detection of gravitational
waves produced by inflation, I was pointed by someone to this paper by Alan
Guth, one of the fathers of inflationary theory:

http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/hep-th/pdf/0702/0702178v1.pdf

it goes something like this: if the eternal inflation hypotesis is true,
the entire cosmos is undergoing continuous inflation, which gives birth to
"ordinary" universes here and there. But since this is inflation, every
second there is more room by a crazy factor like 10^37, and so each second
10^37 more universes are produced than the second before.

Now, consider one of those universes. At a certain point, a first
space-faring civilization may develop. As that universe gets a little
older, it might develop a second one. But, older universes are vastly
outnumbered by younger ones (by a factor of 10^37 for each second of
difference), so a civilization picked up at random will almost always find
itself in one of the youngest universes that permits its existance, and
with no second civilization in sight.

I am not sure that I got all of that correctly :-) It does make sense in a
crazy way, with that biiiig assumption about the eternal inflation, which
of course is unobservable as far as I know.

Alfio
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From anders at aleph.se  Mon Mar 31 23:14:10 2014
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2014 01:14:10 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Climate models
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv3-nB=kaba4A9yBMxtqA8aOkSBJsza4WAgfuZ+du=ovSQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <442658175-10085@secure.ericade.net>

John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> , 30/3/2014 5:42 PM:
On Sat, Mar 29, 2014 at 3:14 PM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:

 > I wouldn't fret too much about climatologists having difficulty putting clouds into their climate models.

You damn well should fret about it if you're using those climate models to plan the future of 7 billion people! 
"Remember that all models are wrong; the practical question is how wrong do they have to be to not be useful." (Box & Draper)
In the case of climate models the useful output is (1) it looks anthropogenic gas emissions are big enough to cause warming in the generic case, (2) the distribution of outcomes (like sensitivity factors) is relatively skew so big deviations are not too surprising, (3) detailed outcomes are really hard to model well (and real world data also give evidence for this - the Arctic sea ice disappearing faster than expected is deeply worrying since this ought to have been modelled well and represents a potentially big feedback factor).?
3 tells us that making ever more elaborate models will not give us much more precision, since there is enough irreducible uncertainty in the system, science and models: hence we should plan for changes in climate, but not bet too much on any particular temperature/precipitation interval. This is reinforced when you look at the mess of the IPCCC working group II (trying to turn climate scenarios into effects on human society): we do not have the science there, and human society is changing and adapting anyway. That is both good and bad news, but it shows that the only smart policies are robust ones that hedge their bets.
I would be watching reinsurance companies for ideas of what to do.

Anders Sandberg, Future of Humanity Institute Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University
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