[ExI] Fwd: neurons

Tue May 20 23:21:31 UTC 2014

My point was that Kaku was using 2 - two states of the neuron, to estimate
- firing or not, he said.  If, in fact, it is 3, then the estimate is far
off. billw

On Tue, May 20, 2014 at 6:02 PM, Giovanni Santostasi
<gsantostasi at gmail.com>wrote:

> Neural coding:
>
> Coding schemes[edit<http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Neural_coding&action=edit&section=3>
> ]
>
> A sequence, or 'train', of spikes may contain information based on
> different coding schemes. In motor neurons, for example, the strength at
> which an innervated muscle is flexed depends solely on the 'firing rate',
> the average number of spikes per unit time (a 'rate code'). At the other
> end, a complex 'temporal code <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temporal_code>'
> is based on the precise timing of single spikes. They may be locked to an
> external stimulus such as in the auditory system<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auditory_system> or
> be generated intrinsically by the neural circuitry.[5]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neural_coding#cite_note-Gerstner97-5>
>
> Whether neurons use rate coding or temporal coding is a topic of intense
> debate within the neuroscience community, even though there is no clear
> definition of what these terms mean.
>
>
>
> from wiki
>
>
> On Tue, May 20, 2014 at 6:00 PM, Giovanni Santostasi <
> gsantostasi at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Not sure what point you are trying to make. Kaku was trying to use the
>> neuron bimodal states (firing or not) to calculate the set of all possible
>> combination of states that give rise to thought. It is a simplistic
>> assumption.
>>
>> One could say that what matters is how information is coded and that is
>> not completely understood. It can be a combination of things, firing times,
>> amplitude modulation, two or more signals arriving at the same time or in a
>> precise sequence and so on.
>>
>> Kaku was doing what physicists often do, approximating a cow with a
>> sphere. It is easy in that way to calculate the volume of the cow and it is
>> a roughly good approximation.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, May 20, 2014 at 5:49 PM, William Flynn Wallace <
>> foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> OK, so they rest.  I give up.  But do you agree that there are three
>>> states of the neuron?
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, May 20, 2014 at 5:46 PM, Giovanni Santostasi <
>>> gsantostasi at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In fact, one per second is resting for neurons. That is what happens
>>>> when you have slow waves oscillations that corresponds to the deepest state
>>>> of sleep.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, May 20, 2014 at 5:23 PM, William Flynn Wallace <
>>>> foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> p.s.  Still, there are three states:  one in which the neuron fires
>>>>> at one per second (resting level - no input), one in which it fires faster
>>>>> (receiving excitatory input), and one in which it fires slower (receiving
>>>>> inhibitory input).  So, firing or not firing is wrong in the context.
>>>>> bill w
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Well, OK, but the slowest they get is about one spike per second (up
>>>>> to 30) without external stimulation.  Not exactly resting.  bill w
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, May 20, 2014 at 4:03 PM, Giovanni Santostasi <
>>>>> gsantostasi at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> What you are thinking that neurons are at a particular potential when
>>>>>> at rest (about -70 mV). But they are not firing all the time at all. There
>>>>>> are times when they are silent.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, May 20, 2014 at 3:42 PM, William Flynn Wallace <
>>>>>> foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In The Future on the Mind, by Michio Kaku, he says as follows
>>>>>>> (facing page 342):
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Define complex in terms of the total amount of information that can
>>>>>>> be stored.  The closet rival to the brain might be the info contained w/in
>>>>>>> our DNA.  Three billion base pairs containing one of four aids, therefore
>>>>>>> total amount of info is four to the three billionth power.  The brain can
>>>>>>> store much more - one hundred billion neurons, *which can either
>>>>>>> fire or not fire*.  Hence there are two raised to the
>>>>>>> one-hundred-billionth power initial states of the brain.... the states
>>>>>>> change every few milliseconds.  A simple thought may contain  one hundred
>>>>>>> generations of neural firings.  Hence there are two raised by one hundred
>>>>>>> billion, all raised to the hundredth power possible thoughts contained in
>>>>>>> one hundred generations.  Brains are ceaselessly computing.  Therefore the
>>>>>>> total number of thoughts possible within N generations is two to the
>>>>>>> one-hundred-billionth power, all raised to the Nth power.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My question concerns the underlined clause:  there are three states
>>>>>>> to a neuron:  increasing its rate, decreasing its rate, and staying the
>>>>>>> same.  Kaku says that a neuron fires or not.  This seems to say that a
>>>>>>> neuron is idle, waiting for stimuli, whereas I think that no neuron ever is
>>>>>>> not firing.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Am I confused again, or is he wrong?  bill w
>>>>>>>
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