From johnkclark at gmail.com  Wed Apr  1 17:28:58 2015
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2015 13:28:58 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Fermi question, possible answer
Message-ID: <CAJPayv0E9fgUqaH5u+R76tjCW8Cky94n44cy2sde0RQOpm50bA@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Mar 23, 2015  BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:

> > This universe seems to be 'designed' for life creation so that primitive
> life appears wherever there is a chance.

Maybe not. We only have one example to examine and it's true that life
started on Earth almost as soon as the Earth formed 4.5 billion years ago,
but that could be freakishly early. This isn't just any old planet that
supports life, it supports intelligent life. If it had taken just 800
million years longer for life to get started then right about now the sun
would start to get off the main sequence and would get so hot that complex
organisms could no longer exist on the Earth.

> > Advancing to intelligent life may well require another chain of unlikely
> events,

The sort of cells that all complex life is made of, Eukaryotic cells,
evolved about 2 billion years ago and some think that was even more
unlikely than the origin of life itself.

> > but the universe is a pretty big place.

It all comes down to which can generate bigger numbers, astronomy or
biology.


  John K Clark
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Thu Apr  2 19:25:29 2015
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2015 15:25:29 -0400
Subject: [ExI] [tt] Identity thread again
In-Reply-To: <CAAc1gFhwhTe7rSN=KToe0jbh1iaGX2VTb0=TQZEDajj+2pwvOQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJNwT_dtnSZWvwTgt_XVcFiA36jemtE=wKi-Jwzph_4TKTty5g@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CAL_armiHs9JSqnPEQT5itJz3EeVPaJ91vK+gRj-cNTjxDo3TJw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFjS+JfebSNsMie6ZmDk5Ms0VGX+Oz+FSrQ_o9E90QJsXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <51A3AC5E-7807-4333-98CD-5E68DA0A76EA@taramayastales.com>
 <CAAc1gFhTpGH9-u-ZX0mgm6+TnrDg6o_k8NFArkxhz+w8bD0Ssg@mail.gmail.com>
 <1845A1C3-088B-4DC5-85B3-5FEE8CA718FD@taramayastales.com>
 <CAAc1gFhwhTe7rSN=KToe0jbh1iaGX2VTb0=TQZEDajj+2pwvOQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv3J7Vumvfi9p9Uk4eUKkRBk=jiY9UX59OdFX2bbben8YQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Mar 26, 2015 at  Rafal Smigrodzki <rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com>
wrote:

> there will be a trade off between spawning independently goal-oriented
> processes (copies) and running non-sentient optimization and search
> processes.
>

You may create a copy of yourself to accomplish some specific sub-goal and
after that has been accomplished you might want him to self destruct.
However given the fact that he's identical to you as soon as he's created
he would think it's a much better idea if you not him accomplish the
sub-goal and then self destruct. In fact he might insist and sincerely
believe that he is the original and you are the copy and it might be
exceedingly difficult to convince him that is not the case. Actually it
doesn't matter which is the original and which is the copy because they are
identical.

  John K Clark
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Apr  3 15:04:28 2015
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2015 10:04:28 -0500
Subject: [ExI] addiction
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEb4fBWt4BSLbsjtsGedHkaiGzgKCkrWsRKSrVcoi6G-xg@mail.gmail.com>

Today we have many drugs that are far more powerful than alcohol. What
happens if this trend continues exponentially?

 John K Clark

I find this highly worthy of discussion on its own.  The more we get to
know our biochemistry the easier it will be to design drugs to create
desired effects in our brains.

As a libertarian I find no favor with trying to ban certain drugs through
legislation.  Hasn't worked well at all and is extremely expensive.  We can
try to marginalize them, as we have done with tobacco, punish overuse of,
say, alcohol, with fines and such.  We can try to educate people to the
very real and sometimes lethal effects of certain drugs.  Hard to say how
effective those are.

Not that I have any great and wonderful ideas myself, but as a psychologist
and just a casual observer, punishment is just about the worst form of
behavior control there is.  The side effects of punishment, such as
resentment, finding ways of avoiding it, and a lot more, are often worse
than the behavior itself.  And if it doesn't work all that well at first,
people are tempted to increase it.  Too much room for abuse.

What you create is an approach-avoidance problem.  Want to use the
substance versus possible punishment if caught.  Obviously if the drug is
highly desirable it wins every time.

We tell kids about the bad aspects, but we don't tell them how great some
drugs make us feel.

 Here is my personal philosophy:

I turned down LSD and cocaine, done by my best friends.  I might like
them.  I might love them, and I could not afford to love them, either
professionally or financially, so I chose not to try them.

Nicotine, we learned, is instantly addictive - one inhalation and your
brain is changed forever.  Worst drug we know of by far.  Worse than
heroin.   (Harder to quite than alcohol, for me.)

Here is a story I would tell all kids:

A very straight and moral guy got all the way through med school and
internship without trying any drug of any kind.  But he got curious, and so
he sampled some of the opioids available to him.  He said "This is the way
people should feel all the time."  One of the scariest sentences I have
read.  He lost his license asap - ruined his career.

Until you find way to make people not want to feel normal, we will have a
drug problem.

I would use no punishment at all, just a referral to a treatment program
which they pay for in part (Freud said that people won't respect what they
get unless they pay for it and I agree).

Many billions spent on trying to stop dealers have only made them rich and
use poorer.  One way we are poorer is having to support the world's biggest
prison population.

bill w
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From rex at nosyntax.net  Fri Apr  3 19:11:25 2015
From: rex at nosyntax.net (rex)
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2015 12:11:25 -0700
Subject: [ExI] addiction
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEb4fBWt4BSLbsjtsGedHkaiGzgKCkrWsRKSrVcoi6G-xg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEb4fBWt4BSLbsjtsGedHkaiGzgKCkrWsRKSrVcoi6G-xg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20150403191123.GA11539@nosyntax.net>

William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com> [2015-04-03 08:06]:
>
>   As a libertarian I find no favor with trying to ban certain drugs through
>   legislation.? Hasn't worked well at all and is extremely expensive.? We
>   can try to marginalize them, as we have done with tobacco, punish overuse
>   of, say, alcohol, with fines and such.? We can try to educate people to
>   the very real and sometimes lethal effects of certain drugs.? Hard to say
>   how effective those are.
>
>   Not that I have any great and wonderful ideas myself, but as a
>   psychologist and just a casual observer, punishment is just about the
>   worst form of behavior control there is.

If so, why hasn't evolution found a more effective solution
(hopelessly outmatched prey animals nevertheless employ defensive
threats, and eventually punishment, when pressed)?

>   The side effects of punishment,
>   such as resentment, finding ways of avoiding it, and a lot more, are often
>   worse than the behavior itself.? And if it doesn't work all that well at
>   first, people are tempted to increase it.? Too much room for abuse.

All true, but if punishment (AKA violent defensive behavior) did not
have a Darwinian selective advantage it would not be ubiquitous in
nature, and it is. Non-human animal experiments with positive
punishment show its effectiveness decays rapidly (and non-linearly)
with delay between behavior and punishment. That's sufficient reason
for "justice" systems that impose long delays between prohibited
behavior and punishment being largely ineffective. That doesn't imply
that sufficiently harsh punishment applied immediately after the act
is ineffective (see tagline).

>
>   What you create is an approach-avoidance problem.? Want to use the
>   substance versus possible punishment if caught.? Obviously if the drug is
>   highly desirable it wins every time.

>   We tell kids about the bad aspects, but we don't tell them how great some
>   drugs make us feel.

sed 's/us/some of us/'

Drugs that are highly rewarding to some are aversive to others, even rats.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7312910

>   ?Here is my personal philosophy:
>
>   I turned down LSD and cocaine, done by my best friends.? I might like
>   them.? I might love them, and I could not afford to love them, either
>   professionally or financially, so I chose not to try them.?
>
>   Nicotine, we learned, is instantly addictive - one inhalation and your
>   brain is changed forever.? Worst drug we know of by far.? Worse than
>   heroin.?? (Harder to quite than alcohol, for me.)

Evidence for the permanent change?

>   Here is a story I would tell all kids:
>
>   A very straight and moral guy got all the way through med school and
>   internship without trying any drug of any kind.? But he got curious, and
>   so he sampled some of the opioids available to him.? He said "This is the
>   way people should feel all the time."? One of the scariest sentences I
>   have read.? He lost his license asap - ruined his career.?
>
>   Until you find way to make people not want to feel normal, we will have a
>   drug problem.

It's plausible that some people have broken endorphin systems and cannot feel
normal without exogenous substitutes for the natural endorphins that most
people have. For example, a counterpoint to your physician example is the
career of William Halsted, the surgeon of Johns Hopkins fame, who was
apparently dependent upon (not necessarily addicted to) morphine for most
of his career.

http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/library/studies/cu/cu5.html

BTW, _The Consumers Union Report on Licit and Illicit Drugs_ is an excellent
overview of the drug situation that is still relevant today, 43 years after
its publication. Highly recommended.

-rex
-- 
"The careful application of terror is also a form of communication."


From pharos at gmail.com  Fri Apr  3 20:03:15 2015
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2015 21:03:15 +0100
Subject: [ExI] addiction
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEb4fBWt4BSLbsjtsGedHkaiGzgKCkrWsRKSrVcoi6G-xg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEb4fBWt4BSLbsjtsGedHkaiGzgKCkrWsRKSrVcoi6G-xg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armipCJCtRr=iftOnZMsJvR8-uT2isLnMNLtpqcH9wa7ARA@mail.gmail.com>

On 3 April 2015 at 16:04, William Flynn Wallace wrote:
> As a libertarian I find no favor with trying to ban certain drugs through
> legislation.  Hasn't worked well at all and is extremely expensive.  We can
> try to marginalize them, as we have done with tobacco, punish overuse of,
> say, alcohol, with fines and such.  We can try to educate people to the very
> real and sometimes lethal effects of certain drugs.  Hard to say how
> effective those are.
>
> Not that I have any great and wonderful ideas myself, but as a psychologist
> and just a casual observer, punishment is just about the worst form of
> behavior control there is.  The side effects of punishment, such as
> resentment, finding ways of avoiding it, and a lot more, are often worse
> than the behavior itself.  And if it doesn't work all that well at first,
> people are tempted to increase it.  Too much room for abuse.
>
> What you create is an approach-avoidance problem.  Want to use the substance
> versus possible punishment if caught.  Obviously if the drug is highly
> desirable it wins every time.
>
<snip>

> Until you find way to make people not want to feel normal, we will have a
> drug problem.
>
> I would use no punishment at all, just a referral to a treatment program
> which they pay for in part (Freud said that people won't respect what they
> get unless they pay for it and I agree).
>
> Many billions spent on trying to stop dealers have only made them rich and
> us poorer.  One way we are poorer is having to support the world's biggest
> prison population.
>
>

Addiction is complex. I doubt that there is a simple 'one size fits
all' solution.

The old idea that a rat in a cage will keep injecting drugs till it
dies is a bit outdated. (The rat was alone in a cage with nothing else
to do). A recent study suggests that rats living together in a
interesting environment don't take much drugs.

Doubt has also been cast on the chemical dependency theory. Most
addicts eventually stop being addicted. Early life trauma or severe
stress (like the Vietnam war) seem likely to cause drug use as a
method of blanking out the mental pain. Remove the stress and
addiction stops. (Most Vietnam vets stopped drug use when they
returned home).

A recent article discusses the options.
<http://www.npr.org/blogs/13.7/2015/03/27/395774025/the-fight-against-addiction-is-love-all-you-need>


BillK


From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Apr  3 22:34:41 2015
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2015 17:34:41 -0500
Subject: [ExI] addiction
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armipCJCtRr=iftOnZMsJvR8-uT2isLnMNLtpqcH9wa7ARA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEb4fBWt4BSLbsjtsGedHkaiGzgKCkrWsRKSrVcoi6G-xg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armipCJCtRr=iftOnZMsJvR8-uT2isLnMNLtpqcH9wa7ARA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEb=x7+XiNqq5wf=DU6kxR35wMATGO5qgw=9=haj2dexOQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 3, 2015 at 3:03 PM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:

> On 3 April 2015 at 16:04, William Flynn Wallace wrote:
> > As a libertarian I find no favor with trying to ban certain drugs through
> > legislation.  Hasn't worked well at all and is extremely expensive.  We
> can
> > try to marginalize them, as we have done with tobacco, punish overuse of,
> > say, alcohol, with fines and such.  We can try to educate people to the
> very
> > real and sometimes lethal effects of certain drugs.  Hard to say how
> > effective those are.
> >
> > Not that I have any great and wonderful ideas myself, but as a
> psychologist
> > and just a casual observer, punishment is just about the worst form of
> > behavior control there is.  The side effects of punishment, such as
> > resentment, finding ways of avoiding it, and a lot more, are often worse
> > than the behavior itself.  And if it doesn't work all that well at first,
> > people are tempted to increase it.  Too much room for abuse.
> >
> > What you create is an approach-avoidance problem.  Want to use the
> substance
> > versus possible punishment if caught.  Obviously if the drug is highly
> > desirable it wins every time.
> >
> <snip>
>
> > Until you find way to make people not want to feel normal, we will have a
> > drug problem.
> >
> > I would use no punishment at all, just a referral to a treatment program
> > which they pay for in part (Freud said that people won't respect what
> they
> > get unless they pay for it and I agree).
> >
> > Many billions spent on trying to stop dealers have only made them rich
> and
> > us poorer.  One way we are poorer is having to support the world's
> biggest
> > prison population.
> >
> >
>
> Addiction is complex. I doubt that there is a simple 'one size fits
> all' solution.
>
> The old idea that a rat in a cage will keep injecting drugs till it
> dies is a bit outdated. (The rat was alone in a cage with nothing else
> to do). A recent study suggests that rats living together in a
> interesting environment don't take much drugs.
>
> Doubt has also been cast on the chemical dependency theory. Most
> addicts eventually stop being addicted. Early life trauma or severe
> stress (like the Vietnam war) seem likely to cause drug use as a
> method of blanking out the mental pain. Remove the stress and
> addiction stops. (Most Vietnam vets stopped drug use when they
> returned home).
>
> A recent article discusses the options.
> <
> http://www.npr.org/blogs/13.7/2015/03/27/395774025/the-fight-against-addiction-is-love-all-you-need
> >
>
>
> BillK
>

?The problem with looking at it from an evolutionary standpoint is that
life or death was likely a daily problem for all animals, so whatever
worked right away and very effectively was passed on.

The problem with positive punishment is that while severe punishment can
eliminate the problem behavior asap, it doesn't last.  It just creates
avoidance behavior, such as finding ways of not getting caught (think of
prisoners exchanging information).  Now if you are avoiding lions, it's a
really good thing.?

?  But we don't want people to avoid parents or bosses.

One rather humorous example was the drug that was added to alcohol
(antabuse).  Pick up your liquor at the rehab center, drink it, and become
very sick.  This teaches them not to get their booze at the rehab center.

As for long term effectiveness, look at my drug problems:  I have not
smoked tobacco (since 1981) or drunk alcohol (since 1997) in decades and
you'll just have to take my word for it.  I have no advice for how to get
this level of self-control.  I do not have it some other areas of my life,
like getting organized!

Good article on drug abuse and self-control (or willpower, if you like) in
April's Scientific American, though the self-control studies are very short
term.

Re Vietnam vets:  yes, very interesting that many quit on returning home,
given that many were addicted to heroin.?  I speculate that as soon as the
stress, which must have been great at times, was gone, so was a need to
zone out.

I agree with the SciAmer article that no one has his willpower removed by a
chemical.  There is no total compulsion to take a drug over which the
person has no power.  Hand to mouth is still a voluntary action, so sorry,
drug abusers, there is no 'have to' here.

So I would say for all types of addiction that the psychological part is
*always* the most important one.

bill w

> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From nuala.t at gmail.com  Sat Apr  4 00:57:58 2015
From: nuala.t at gmail.com (Nuala Thomson)
Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2015 07:57:58 +0700
Subject: [ExI] addiction
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEb4fBWt4BSLbsjtsGedHkaiGzgKCkrWsRKSrVcoi6G-xg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEb4fBWt4BSLbsjtsGedHkaiGzgKCkrWsRKSrVcoi6G-xg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <430E39DA-D666-44A8-9A6D-0957FE7C202E@gmail.com>

I agree punishment is the worst form of behaviour control for drug users, for all the reasons you said and more.
IF punishment is going to be used then there should also be forced rehab style treatments. 
However nothing will work unless the person actually wants to stop using drugs altogether. And convincing someone that drug use is ruining their lives is one of the hardest things to accomplish, especially when most, if not all, drug abusers are in denial.

Is it Iceland that offers a lot of treatment centres, and as a result has had drug use, and violence associated with drugs declining?

I'm a recovering addict, and I would simply tell kids my story (also happy to share here if you're interested).
I knew all the bad and possible lethal side effects of everything I put in my body to the extent of a couple hours of research, and I did it all anyway because of the feeling I would get.
It was mostly about escapism.

Now the trend of drugs more powerful than alcohol.. If this trend continues (which is pretty much guaranteed), it really depends on what comes out. Everyone has a preference to what they want to feel.
People who drink a lot also tend to smoke more weed, and take more Valium/Xanax, etc, than people who like amphetamines (ecstasy, speed, methamphetamine, etc).
So with the trend continuing and no change in how to deal with it, I would expect crime and weekend violence (particularly in Australia) to increase exponentially.

I feel the rest of the world should follow Iceland in the management and treatment of drug addiction.

Your plan of referring people to a treatment centre paid in part instead of punishment is the most desirable idea, but will still only work if the person wants to stop using, or has realised they have a problem and doesn't know what to do.

Nuala 

> On Apr 3, 2015, at 22:04, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> Today we have many drugs that are far more powerful than alcohol. What happens if this trend continues exponentially?  
> 
>  John K Clark
> 
> I find this highly worthy of discussion on its own.  The more we get to know our biochemistry the easier it will be to design drugs to create desired effects in our brains.
> 
> As a libertarian I find no favor with trying to ban certain drugs through legislation.  Hasn't worked well at all and is extremely expensive.  We can try to marginalize them, as we have done with tobacco, punish overuse of, say, alcohol, with fines and such.  We can try to educate people to the very real and sometimes lethal effects of certain drugs.  Hard to say how effective those are.
> 
> Not that I have any great and wonderful ideas myself, but as a psychologist and just a casual observer, punishment is just about the worst form of behavior control there is.  The side effects of punishment, such as resentment, finding ways of avoiding it, and a lot more, are often worse than the behavior itself.  And if it doesn't work all that well at first, people are tempted to increase it.  Too much room for abuse.
> 
> What you create is an approach-avoidance problem.  Want to use the substance versus possible punishment if caught.  Obviously if the drug is highly desirable it wins every time.
> 
> We tell kids about the bad aspects, but we don't tell them how great some drugs make us feel. 
> 
>  Here is my personal philosophy:
> 
> I turned down LSD and cocaine, done by my best friends.  I might like them.  I might love them, and I could not afford to love them, either professionally or financially, so I chose not to try them.  
> 
> Nicotine, we learned, is instantly addictive - one inhalation and your brain is changed forever.  Worst drug we know of by far.  Worse than heroin.   (Harder to quite than alcohol, for me.)
> 
> Here is a story I would tell all kids:
> 
> A very straight and moral guy got all the way through med school and internship without trying any drug of any kind.  But he got curious, and so he sampled some of the opioids available to him.  He said "This is the way people should feel all the time."  One of the scariest sentences I have read.  He lost his license asap - ruined his career.  
> 
> Until you find way to make people not want to feel normal, we will have a drug problem.
> 
> I would use no punishment at all, just a referral to a treatment program which they pay for in part (Freud said that people won't respect what they get unless they pay for it and I agree).  
> 
> Many billions spent on trying to stop dealers have only made them rich and use poorer.  One way we are poorer is having to support the world's biggest prison population.
> 
> bill w
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sat Apr  4 01:28:17 2015
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2015 20:28:17 -0500
Subject: [ExI] addiction
In-Reply-To: <430E39DA-D666-44A8-9A6D-0957FE7C202E@gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEb4fBWt4BSLbsjtsGedHkaiGzgKCkrWsRKSrVcoi6G-xg@mail.gmail.com>
 <430E39DA-D666-44A8-9A6D-0957FE7C202E@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbF+MVo1FcXuW_TMMr_Z6FOtg6yRtPzQSrJe8aJ_LhMpw@mail.gmail.com>

Your plan of referring people to a treatment centre paid in part instead of
punishment is the most desirable idea, but will still only work if the
person wants to stop using, or has realised they have a problem and doesn't
know what to do.

Nuala

Here's a problem with that.  Of course an arrested addict is going to say
he is willing to change if his alternative is some form of punishment.
Some will lie.  As for wanting to stop using, I'll bet you'll get a lot of
"Yes, I really need to" that is just a form of delusion.

One reason I was able to quit both tobacco and alcohol is that for both I
was really tired of wanting to quit.  A second factor was pride: 'Just who
is in charge of this body anyway.?  Me or this drug?'

Yeah, we could all tell war stories endlessly.  I once took up smoking
again after a month without because of a fight with my wife.  Had to drive
20 miles to get some.  Later I was very angry with myself for being so
stupid as to mess up what was working just fine.  Anger causes much
self-destructive behavior.  It can lead to a 'don't give a damn' attitude.

Although I taught a course in drugs I am not really an expert in any way.
I'd like to know just how many addicts are carefully screened and then
followed up during and after treatment so we could see the characteristics
of a person who is successful and those who were not.  I suspect that there
is little valid data on this point.  If there were there would be a lot
higher cure rate.  I'd guess that the best single predictor is level of
psychopathy.  Psychopaths are very resistant to change.  They have no inner
voice to nag.  Every clinical psychologist will ask of some new therapy
what can it do with the psychopath (not really the PC term nowadays).

Bill W

extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From protokol2020 at gmail.com  Sat Apr  4 07:17:08 2015
From: protokol2020 at gmail.com (Tomaz Kristan)
Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2015 09:17:08 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Fermi question, possible answer
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv0E9fgUqaH5u+R76tjCW8Cky94n44cy2sde0RQOpm50bA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv0E9fgUqaH5u+R76tjCW8Cky94n44cy2sde0RQOpm50bA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALMrAFSAGbACcdhZ7XnxgjuGXg0bwWarwZe+J+VJh=5Qd3jVeQ@mail.gmail.com>

It is possible, that the astronomy (physics) does not provide a big enough
number in the first place.

Yes, there may be 10^23 stars in the visible universe. But a star is not
enough. Must be a much more peculiar one, that once thought it has to be.

What is known as the faint sun paradox - why was so warm on Earth back when
our Sun was much fainter - has a strange answer. Be cause our planet
rotated faster!

Yes, that's right. A faster rotating planet is warmer! Despite the common
knowledge, of course.

Gradually this rotation slowed, just as the Sun got warmer in its natural
cycle. Quite a synchronicity was needed!

And it is very likely that then the Universe was not able to provide a very
big number of systems capable of life. Biology had nothing to begin with.









On Wed, Apr 1, 2015 at 7:28 PM, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mon, Mar 23, 2015  BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> > This universe seems to be 'designed' for life creation so
>> that primitive life appears wherever there is a chance.
>
> Maybe not. We only have one example to examine and it's true that life
> started on Earth almost as soon as the Earth formed 4.5 billion years ago,
> but that could be freakishly early. This isn't just any old planet that
> supports life, it supports intelligent life. If it had taken just 800
> million years longer for life to get started then right about now the sun
> would start to get off the main sequence and would get so hot that complex
> organisms could no longer exist on the Earth.
>
>> > Advancing to intelligent life may well require another chain of
>> unlikely events,
>
> The sort of cells that all complex life is made of, Eukaryotic cells,
> evolved about 2 billion years ago and some think that was even more
> unlikely than the origin of life itself.
>
>> > but the universe is a pretty big place.
>
> It all comes down to which can generate bigger numbers, astronomy or
> biology.
>
>
>   John K Clark
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>


-- 
https://protokol2020.wordpress.com/
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Sat Apr  4 16:09:57 2015
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2015 12:09:57 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Fermi question, possible answer
In-Reply-To: <CALMrAFSAGbACcdhZ7XnxgjuGXg0bwWarwZe+J+VJh=5Qd3jVeQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv0E9fgUqaH5u+R76tjCW8Cky94n44cy2sde0RQOpm50bA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALMrAFSAGbACcdhZ7XnxgjuGXg0bwWarwZe+J+VJh=5Qd3jVeQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv1RksUDKHcXSRC2xgfKyszCq6uKW68Q69eJRkHeeLtW+Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Apr 4, 2015 Tomaz Kristan <protokol2020 at gmail.com> wrote:

> What is known as the faint sun paradox - why was so warm on Earth back
> when our Sun was much fainter
>

Even more paradoxical is that 3 billion years ago on Mars, which is further
from that fainter sun than the Earth, it was warm enough for liquid water
to exist on it's surface. It's odd.


> > has a strange answer. Be cause our planet rotated faster!
>

Earth once rotated in less than 6 hours but back then the moon was much
closer and it's tidal forces slowed the rotation to 24 hours and is still
slowing it down; but angular momentum must be conserved so as the Earth
slows down the moon goes further away. Mars has no large moon to slow it
down and yet strangely it has almost the same rotational period as the
Earth. Coincidence I guess.


> > Yes, that's right. A faster rotating planet is warmer!
>

I have heard that global warming could increase the rotation of the Earth
because water expands when it gets warmer and water would tend to move from
the equator to the poles, but it's a very small effect, less than a
millisecond;
and the faster rotation is a effect of warming not a cause.

  John K Clark
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From protokol2020 at gmail.com  Sat Apr  4 16:35:24 2015
From: protokol2020 at gmail.com (Tomaz Kristan)
Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2015 18:35:24 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Fermi question, possible answer
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv1RksUDKHcXSRC2xgfKyszCq6uKW68Q69eJRkHeeLtW+Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv0E9fgUqaH5u+R76tjCW8Cky94n44cy2sde0RQOpm50bA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALMrAFSAGbACcdhZ7XnxgjuGXg0bwWarwZe+J+VJh=5Qd3jVeQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1RksUDKHcXSRC2xgfKyszCq6uKW68Q69eJRkHeeLtW+Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALMrAFTTFJgMjftQRB7X1EXcJBYA3E_LX05qrZbhvM_vZgfqGg@mail.gmail.com>

Faster rotation is a cause of warming. Please see why.

https://protokol2020.wordpress.com/2013/07/04/planet-rotation-extreme-case/

On Sat, Apr 4, 2015 at 6:09 PM, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

>
> On Sat, Apr 4, 2015 Tomaz Kristan <protokol2020 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > What is known as the faint sun paradox - why was so warm on Earth back
>> when our Sun was much fainter
>>
>
> Even more paradoxical is that 3 billion years ago on Mars, which is
> further from that fainter sun than the Earth, it was warm enough for liquid
> water to exist on it's surface. It's odd.
>
>
>> > has a strange answer. Be cause our planet rotated faster!
>>
>
> Earth once rotated in less than 6 hours but back then the moon was much
> closer and it's tidal forces slowed the rotation to 24 hours and is still
> slowing it down; but angular momentum must be conserved so as the Earth
> slows down the moon goes further away. Mars has no large moon to slow it
> down and yet strangely it has almost the same rotational period as the
> Earth. Coincidence I guess.
>
>
>> > Yes, that's right. A faster rotating planet is warmer!
>>
>
> I have heard that global warming could increase the rotation of the Earth
> because water expands when it gets warmer and water would tend to move from
> the equator to the poles, but it's a very small effect, less than a millisecond;
> and the faster rotation is a effect of warming not a cause.
>
>   John K Clark
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>


-- 
https://protokol2020.wordpress.com/
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From pharos at gmail.com  Sat Apr  4 20:12:45 2015
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2015 21:12:45 +0100
Subject: [ExI] End of the world TV program
Message-ID: <CAL_armjDGo1Ty8xwD_x5=EWDJ80Pd6Pg418UbdzJkXoZz7S4aw@mail.gmail.com>

Just started on UK Channel 4 TV channel. Program discusses possible
ways the world might end.
Nick Bostrom seems to commenting throughout.

It may be available later online on Channel 4 catchup/
<http://www.channel4.com/programmes/catchup>


From pharos at gmail.com  Sat Apr  4 22:36:32 2015
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2015 23:36:32 +0100
Subject: [ExI] End of the world TV program
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armjDGo1Ty8xwD_x5=EWDJ80Pd6Pg418UbdzJkXoZz7S4aw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armjDGo1Ty8xwD_x5=EWDJ80Pd6Pg418UbdzJkXoZz7S4aw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armgv5n-ySdBaHSHJAoP1SHGLUZikNpmKS4k7B=2ZM1Gb7A@mail.gmail.com>

On 4 April 2015 at 21:12, BillK  wrote:
> Just started on UK Channel 4 TV channel. Program discusses possible
> ways the world might end.
> Nick Bostrom seems to be commenting throughout.
>
> It may be available later online on Channel 4 catchup.
>


Well, that seemed to be a pretty sensible walk-through of the top ten
existential risks (as written about by Nick and Anders). It included a
lot of excerpts from Hollywood disaster films for added entertainment
value.

The comments from Nick Bostrom were quite brief, as other scientists
were commenting as well. But the program got all the existential risks
ideas over clearly to a mass TV audience.

It is available online for 29 days.
<http://www.channel4.com/programmes/end-of-the-world-night/on-demand/60247-001>


From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Sat Apr  4 23:21:11 2015
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2015 16:21:11 -0700
Subject: [ExI] addiction
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB7H==G1c-Py4duK7G9ZqZW6-MeWLj290mDv41L0ebdw-A@mail.gmail.com>

I don't think people are going to get very far with understanding
addiction until they understand why human (some at least) can be
addicted at all.

You folks are sick of hearing about it from me, anyone have an
evolutionary pathway to this curious trait.

Keith


From rhanson at gmu.edu  Sat Apr  4 00:20:33 2015
From: rhanson at gmu.edu (Robin D Hanson)
Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2015 00:20:33 +0000
Subject: [ExI] [tt] Identity thread again
In-Reply-To: <CAAc1gFhwhTe7rSN=KToe0jbh1iaGX2VTb0=TQZEDajj+2pwvOQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJNwT_dtnSZWvwTgt_XVcFiA36jemtE=wKi-Jwzph_4TKTty5g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFhUkN+shikr2+7Waitr6gwPRqoaxHrY5Sb6trjT0OPu1Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armhpYWBhkGwUojFEmKrBETsRkFfVpxw97PbD0n_TsxGESA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFgySJ4z7Eacb_Tfs84gZkvgKPwUS+RQWtCSwJspVueD+Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armiHs9JSqnPEQT5itJz3EeVPaJ91vK+gRj-cNTjxDo3TJw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFjS+JfebSNsMie6ZmDk5Ms0VGX+Oz+FSrQ_o9E90QJsXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <51A3AC5E-7807-4333-98CD-5E68DA0A76EA@taramayastales.com>
 <CAAc1gFhTpGH9-u-ZX0mgm6+TnrDg6o_k8NFArkxhz+w8bD0Ssg@mail.gmail.com>
 <1845A1C3-088B-4DC5-85B3-5FEE8CA718FD@taramayastales.com>
 <CAAc1gFhwhTe7rSN=KToe0jbh1iaGX2VTb0=TQZEDajj+2pwvOQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9ADB4E23-65EE-4275-AD3C-FF057CA8B145@gmu.edu>

On Mar 26, 2015, at 12:07 AM, Rafal Smigrodzki <rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com<mailto:rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com>> wrote:
### Here I am not so optimistic - the ease of making copies means the substrate is likely to be crowded. Also, there will be a trade off between spawning independently goal-oriented processes (copies) and running non-sentient optimization and search processes. A single conscious mind could elect to use available resources for e.g. exhaustive searches of solution spaces to different problems. Or it could choose to make many copies of itself. Which strategy would spread would depend on the fitness payoffs: If non-sentient processes (=supercomputing) produce valuable excludable goods (i.e. intellectual property or new physical resources) that you can protect from thieves and sell for more energy/matter than can be bought from the labor of copies, then the supercomputing strategy would predominate. Otherwise, breeders would swamp the substrate.

In a competitive world the ratio of computer hardware spend running minds like humans to "non-sentient optimization and search processes? depends on the relative effectiveness of the later compared to the former. But I don?t see what high levels of theft have to do with it. If there is a lot of theft then how that changes things depends on what kinds of things are easier to steal, and what kinds of abilities are better at doing and preventing theft. If both are equally easy or hard to steal, and if the efficient ratio of minds like humans and non-sentient processes is the same for doing and preventing theft as it is for other useful production, then we wouldn?t expect more theft to change that relative ratio.



Robin Hanson  http://hanson.gmu.edu
Res. Assoc., Future of Humanity Inst., Oxford Univ.
Assoc. Professor, George Mason University
Chief Scientist, Consensus Point
MSN 1D3, Carow Hall, Fairfax VA 22030
703-993-2326 FAX: 703-993-2323



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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sun Apr  5 13:45:53 2015
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2015 08:45:53 -0500
Subject: [ExI] addiction
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB7H==G1c-Py4duK7G9ZqZW6-MeWLj290mDv41L0ebdw-A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB7H==G1c-Py4duK7G9ZqZW6-MeWLj290mDv41L0ebdw-A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEb89scafc7Viy5LVuUeiBCQXYE8WmKhhMJuzZgfFhcmrg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Apr 4, 2015 at 6:21 PM, Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> wrote:

> I don't think people are going to get very far with understanding
> addiction until they understand why human (some at least) can be
> addicted at all.
>
> You folks are sick of hearing about it from me, anyone have an
> evolutionary pathway to this curious trait.
>
> Keith
>

?Long ago psychologists established that if you inserted a stimulator in a
lab animal's pleasure centers, (in fact the studies that established the
existence of them), the animal would make a response to get the stimulation
until it fell over from exhaustion and then later get up and do it again.?

?It could not be distracted by food or the smell of a receptive female.
Surely this is the mother of all addictions.

It is difficult to see how this behavior could in any way help an animal to
survive and breed.

Perhaps someone who is more up-to-date on cerebral stimulation can
enlighten us.

One thing I do know:  not every single thing about us is positive in terms
of evolutionary fitness.  We have just enough to keep going.
Look at the susceptibilities to various cancers.  Very negative but
generally occurring well after sexual maturity.

 Bill W?

> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From stathisp at gmail.com  Sun Apr  5 15:24:38 2015
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2015 01:24:38 +1000
Subject: [ExI] addiction
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEb89scafc7Viy5LVuUeiBCQXYE8WmKhhMJuzZgfFhcmrg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB7H==G1c-Py4duK7G9ZqZW6-MeWLj290mDv41L0ebdw-A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEb89scafc7Viy5LVuUeiBCQXYE8WmKhhMJuzZgfFhcmrg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAH=2ypUhXt2qK1PZdu0FJJVzMDdYLHjeSxZE0BSyr4_SyU3Z3A@mail.gmail.com>

On Sunday, April 5, 2015, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Sat, Apr 4, 2015 at 6:21 PM, Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','hkeithhenson at gmail.com');>> wrote:
>
>> I don't think people are going to get very far with understanding
>> addiction until they understand why human (some at least) can be
>> addicted at all.
>>
>> You folks are sick of hearing about it from me, anyone have an
>> evolutionary pathway to this curious trait.
>>
>> Keith
>>
>
> ?Long ago psychologists established that if you inserted a stimulator in a
> lab animal's pleasure centers, (in fact the studies that established the
> existence of them), the animal would make a response to get the stimulation
> until it fell over from exhaustion and then later get up and do it again.?
>
> ?It could not be distracted by food or the smell of a receptive female.
> Surely this is the mother of all addictions.
>
> It is difficult to see how this behavior could in any way help an animal
> to survive and breed.
>
> Perhaps someone who is more up-to-date on cerebral stimulation can
> enlighten us.
>
> One thing I do know:  not every single thing about us is positive in terms
> of evolutionary fitness.  We have just enough to keep going.
> Look at the susceptibilities to various cancers.  Very negative but
> generally occurring well after sexual maturity.
>

Evolution has not had long enough to act on addiction, which is a
maladaptive hijacking of a physiological system.


-- 
Stathis Papaioannou
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From pharos at gmail.com  Sun Apr  5 16:29:23 2015
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2015 17:29:23 +0100
Subject: [ExI] addiction
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEb89scafc7Viy5LVuUeiBCQXYE8WmKhhMJuzZgfFhcmrg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB7H==G1c-Py4duK7G9ZqZW6-MeWLj290mDv41L0ebdw-A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEb89scafc7Viy5LVuUeiBCQXYE8WmKhhMJuzZgfFhcmrg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armjK9kmG-cMHpVJvj1bi4KqkYtsJwjN5MKnJsgAF=QeB2w@mail.gmail.com>

On 5 April 2015 at 14:45, William Flynn Wallace  wrote:
> Long ago psychologists established that if you inserted a stimulator in a
> lab animal's pleasure centers, (in fact the studies that established the
> existence of them), the animal would make a response to get the stimulation
> until it fell over from exhaustion and then later get up and do it again.
>
> It could not be distracted by food or the smell of a receptive female.
> Surely this is the mother of all addictions.
>
> It is difficult to see how this behavior could in any way help an animal to
> survive and breed.
>
>

This view was wildly popular back in the 1960s and 70s when the
research was a breakthrough in the discovery of the brain pleasure
centres. But there are now dissenting voices.

See:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_K._Alexander>
Quote:
The Rat Park experiments, published in psychopharmacology journals in
the late 1970s and early 1980s, flatly contradicted the dominant view
of addiction in their day.
The Rat Park experiments were among the first to show the error in the
once dominant myth that certain drugs, particularly the opiates,
convert all or most users into drug addicts. In the 1970s, this myth
was said to be demonstrated by the high consumption of opiates and
stimulants of rats isolated in specially modified Skinner Boxes that
allowed drug self-administration. Alexander and his colleagues
demonstrated experimentally that rats isolated in cages of about the
same size as Skinner Boxes consume far more morphine than rats that
are socially housed in Rat Park. Subsequent research has confirmed
that social housing reduces drug intake in rats and that the dominant
myth was wrong both for rats and for human beings. Nonetheless, the
myth is still embedded in popular culture.

Alexander then explored the broader implications of Rat Park
experiments for human beings. The main conclusions of his experimental
and historical research since 1985 can be summarized as follows:
1) Drug addiction is only a small corner of the addiction problem.
Most serious addictions do not involve either drugs or alcohol
2) Addiction is more a social problem than an individual problem. When
socially integrated societies are fragmented by internal or external
forces, addiction of all sorts increases dramatically, becoming almost
universal in extremely fragmented societies.
3) Addiction arises in fragmented societies because people use it as a
way of adapting to extreme social dislocation. As a form of
adaptation, addiction is neither a disease that can be cured nor a
moral error that can be corrected by punishment and education.
--------------

Sounds good to me.

BillK


From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sun Apr  5 16:55:13 2015
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2015 11:55:13 -0500
Subject: [ExI] addiction
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armjK9kmG-cMHpVJvj1bi4KqkYtsJwjN5MKnJsgAF=QeB2w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB7H==G1c-Py4duK7G9ZqZW6-MeWLj290mDv41L0ebdw-A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEb89scafc7Viy5LVuUeiBCQXYE8WmKhhMJuzZgfFhcmrg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armjK9kmG-cMHpVJvj1bi4KqkYtsJwjN5MKnJsgAF=QeB2w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZ_M4=2rvjFKmxmc7O4P_=4yimcvK_B60iG0PH0VkfFaw@mail.gmail.com>

>
> Alexander then explored the broader implications of Rat Park
> experiments for human beings. The main conclusions of his experimental
> and historical research since 1985 can be summarized as follows:
> 1) Drug addiction is only a small corner of the addiction problem.
> Most serious addictions do not involve either drugs or alcohol
> 2) Addiction is more a social problem than an individual problem. When
> socially integrated societies are fragmented by internal or external
> forces, addiction of all sorts increases dramatically, becoming almost
> universal in extremely fragmented societies.
> 3) Addiction arises in fragmented societies because people use it as a
> way of adapting to extreme social dislocation. As a form of
> adaptation, addiction is neither a disease that can be cured nor a
> moral error that can be corrected by punishment and education.
> --------------
>
> Sounds good to me.
>
> BillK
>

?Sounds like vague sociological thinking to me.

bill w?


> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike66 at att.net  Sun Apr  5 17:14:07 2015
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2015 10:14:07 -0700
Subject: [ExI] fermi paradox again, was:   addiction
Message-ID: <008101d06fc3$edbd0cc0$c9372640$@att.net>

 

?>>?Long ago psychologists established that if you inserted a stimulator in a lab animal's pleasure centers, (in fact the studies that established the existence of them), the animal would make a response to get the stimulation until it fell over ?  BillW

 

>?Evolution has not had long enough to act on addiction, which is a maladaptive hijacking of a physiological system.-- Stathis Papaioannou

 

 

I haven?t looked at that list of possible explanations for the Fermi paradox to see if this is among them, but some massive nearly universal addiction could do it.  

 

Consider that we know a number of addictive substances, nearly all of them discovered recently in human history.  Is it perfectly conceivable that the very most universally addictive substance is yet to be synthesized.  Then once it is, a very large fraction of the population gets into it before a general alarm is sounded.  Even after that alarm, it is reasonable to envision that plenty of people become addicted to it after they already know it is a one-way street, because everyone they know or care about in this world are already addicted.

 

We have chemicals that do various things, opiates for instance, well-known addictive substances.  Nearly everyone here will relate to this feeling: being in love.  Nearly everyone everywhere has had an unreasonable and unexplainable crush on another person, where you completely overlook or accept the other person?s faults, you see only beauty in that person.  (Well, ya have, haven?t ya?  I don?t even need to ask; you know who I am talking about.  

 

I have had that feeling too.  I am one of the fortunate ones, married to that feeling for 31 years.)  You mostly lost interest in other matters; she was your interest.  You close your eyes, but she is still there.  The radiance of her smile outshines the noonday sun (?etc etc etc?)  There are plenty of rock and roll songs about that feeling.

 

Imagine we discover a chemical which does that: creates that feeling for people in general, a real Love Potion Number 9.  It caused the addicted person to be still functional, not stoned as one on opium but definitely high.  Suppose it causes the addicted one to be kind, generous, good, charitable, optimistic, happy, that spectrum of euphoric emotions one feels when in love.  If such a thing is discovered, that could cause a society and even a technology-enabled species to lose interest in anything but having that potion.  Result: cosmic silence.

 

spike

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From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Sun Apr  5 19:34:21 2015
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2015 12:34:21 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The cult
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB5zfRX7DL_Vn943m41Z0Jzh9_0oxKw9opwdVy8wH67-6A@mail.gmail.com>

As some of you know, I have been involved in getting the scientology
cult laughed out of existence.

http://tonyortega.org/2015/04/05/saturday-night-lives-genius-spoof-of-scientology-last-night-lyrics-and-images/

Progress!

Keith


From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Mon Apr  6 05:23:53 2015
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2015 22:23:53 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Kingsman
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB5xQxX54d2wDvioOTT+PdqHZmyRHmY+J0kvXnV3cJK+QA@mail.gmail.com>

Arel, my wife, is much more of a movie person than I am.  She wanted
to see one, ?Kingsman: The Secret Service? so we went this evening

IMDB describes it thus:  ?A super-secret spy organization recruits an
unrefined but promising street kid into the agency's ultra-competitive
training program just as a global threat emerges from a twisted tech
genius.?

It was a lot more interesting than you might expect for something
based off a comic book.  It is set in a world where global warming is
the consensus and said extremely rich tech genius dude by the name of
Valentine (played by Samuel L. Jackson) decides the only way to cope
is to kill most of the population.

It?s full of comic book violence, but the underlying politics is
rather interesting.  I didn't know the concerns about global warming
and overpopulation had penetrated far enough into the culture to base
a story on thwarting an evil genius whose idea of coping with global
warming is by killing off most of the population by inducing them into
a killing rage.  The fundamentalist church scene where the enraged
congregation members are all armed and kill each other was an amusing
twist.

A few years ago I ran into a number of people with similar views to
the Valentine character.  They didn?t think it was desirable to solve
the energy problem and commented on one of my early power satellite
article.  http://www.theoildrum.com/node/5485

The raging debate over the desirability of solving the energy problem
became so noisy that another blog commented on it.

?If you take a few minutes to read this blog, and again the comments,
you find the dissonance on full display.  On the one hand you have a
person saying that there may be an energy answer after fossil fuels.
On the other hand you have lots of people not only saying it is not
possible, but directly arguing that a human die-back is more desirable
than cheap energy.?

http://www.futurist.com/2009/06/15/energy-and-the-future-space-based-power-and-cognitive-dissonance/

My sum up comment to the whole thing was:

"Perhaps it is incorrect of me to assume they are in favor of a die
off when they reject that there even could be a solution to the
carbon/energy problems.  Operationally though it's the same thing."

It?s quite strange to have the attitudes of people you were debating
some 6 years ago define a movie villain.

Keith



From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Mon Apr  6 06:05:29 2015
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2015 02:05:29 -0400
Subject: [ExI] [tt] Identity thread again
In-Reply-To: <9ADB4E23-65EE-4275-AD3C-FF057CA8B145@gmu.edu>
References: <CAJNwT_dtnSZWvwTgt_XVcFiA36jemtE=wKi-Jwzph_4TKTty5g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFhUkN+shikr2+7Waitr6gwPRqoaxHrY5Sb6trjT0OPu1Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armhpYWBhkGwUojFEmKrBETsRkFfVpxw97PbD0n_TsxGESA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFgySJ4z7Eacb_Tfs84gZkvgKPwUS+RQWtCSwJspVueD+Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armiHs9JSqnPEQT5itJz3EeVPaJ91vK+gRj-cNTjxDo3TJw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFjS+JfebSNsMie6ZmDk5Ms0VGX+Oz+FSrQ_o9E90QJsXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <51A3AC5E-7807-4333-98CD-5E68DA0A76EA@taramayastales.com>
 <CAAc1gFhTpGH9-u-ZX0mgm6+TnrDg6o_k8NFArkxhz+w8bD0Ssg@mail.gmail.com>
 <1845A1C3-088B-4DC5-85B3-5FEE8CA718FD@taramayastales.com>
 <CAAc1gFhwhTe7rSN=KToe0jbh1iaGX2VTb0=TQZEDajj+2pwvOQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <9ADB4E23-65EE-4275-AD3C-FF057CA8B145@gmu.edu>
Message-ID: <CAAc1gFg3LYS5mYcgyXHcEZ0xqRGpsbV8ZgU9zeUgNWCjAdpGpw@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 3, 2015 at 8:20 PM, Robin D Hanson <rhanson at gmu.edu> wrote:

>  On Mar 26, 2015, at 12:07 AM, Rafal Smigrodzki <
> rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>   ### Here I am not so optimistic - the ease of making copies means the
> substrate is likely to be crowded. Also, there will be a trade off between
> spawning independently goal-oriented processes (copies) and running
> non-sentient optimization and search processes. A single conscious mind
> could elect to use available resources for e.g. exhaustive searches of
> solution spaces to different problems. Or it could choose to make many
> copies of itself. Which strategy would spread would depend on the fitness
> payoffs: If non-sentient processes (=supercomputing) produce valuable
> excludable goods (i.e. intellectual property or new physical resources)
> that you can protect from thieves and sell for more energy/matter than can
> be bought from the labor of copies, then the supercomputing strategy would
> predominate. Otherwise, breeders would swamp the substrate.
>
>
>  In a competitive world the ratio of computer hardware spend running
> minds like humans to "non-sentient optimization and search processes?
> depends on the relative effectiveness of the later compared to the former.
> But I don?t see what high levels of theft have to do with it. If there is a
> lot of theft then how that changes things depends on what kinds of things
> are easier to steal, and what kinds of abilities are better at doing and
> preventing theft. If both are equally easy or hard to steal, and if the
> efficient ratio of minds like humans and non-sentient processes is the same
> for doing and preventing theft as it is for other useful production, then
> we wouldn?t expect more theft to change that relative ratio.
>

### I am assuming that there is a trade-off between the spawning copies and
supercomputing new solutions - if you spawn copies, ceteris paribus, you
are less able to supercompute. Assuming an identical amount of starting
resources (matter+energy)x time, the breeder can never find the solutions
accessible to the supercomputer, simply because the resources are fungible
and expending them towards breeding precludes other achievements. So there
is a difference in the relative effectiveness between the two strategies in
terms of finding solutions to problems, especially over large time
horizons. The complexity of thinking is cumulative, breeding is not.

In a world without theft (where theft may include direct invasion of the
computing substrate, not just IP theft), the supercomputer is not at risk
of losing resources it gains through making inventions over long periods of
time. Given the law of comparative advantage, a supercomputer survives
under a wide range of values for payoffs from supercomputing vs. labor of
copies. It would not lose over time if it could buy enough resources to
sustain itself, and it would overtake the world if it could buy enough
resources to grow.

You are correct, introduction of theft would not immediately change things
under the assumptions you spelled out - i.e. supercomputers and breeders
are suffering equal losses and making equal gains per unit of time due to
theft. However, for this to be the case, you would need a surprising parity
between a number of processes - e.g. breeders stealing from supercomputers,
supercomputers stealing from breeders, the efficiency of conversion of
stolen goods into breeding, the efficiency of converting stolen goods into
supercomputing, and perhaps others that I can't think about now. Therefore
I would expect that the existence of theft would change the relative
fitness of breeding vs. supercomputing. Of course, it is conceivable that
supercomputers might be better at theft than breeders. In the living world
there are situations where theft by supercomputers vastly wins over
breeders - we are the supercomputers, and we feed on massive numbers of
stupid beings. In other situations however, small stupid things eat us
alive. I cannot begin to predict which conditions would obtain in the
computational substrate. We have insufficient data. It might be useful to
think through the details of conceivable strategies of growth, breeding,
resource acquisition, and try to tie them to what we know about the physics
of computation and the mathematics of resource control (i.e. cryptography,
game theory) but this is an endeavor beyond the scope of an ExI post.

Let me just elaborate on the world without theft. New resources of matter
are won and divided between breeders and supercomputers depending on their
relative ability to take over unowned resources. Let's assume that the
amount of matter/energy available would remain constant after all unowned
resources are taken over, and there is an initial ratio of mass of
supercomputers to breeders.  How it would change over time would now depend
their relative ability to produce exchangeable units of value. Please note
that if the breeders are only interested in increasing their numbers, they
would not trade with supercomputers - there would be nothing they need that
supercomputers could offer, and under these assumptions the ratio would
remain constant until the death of the universe. However, over time there
would be a change in the internal state of breeders vs. supercomputers.
Breeders, being less able to generate new solutions, would effectively
remain in a form of stasis, unchanging in numbers or internal complexity
over long periods of time. This is approximated by a steady-state bacterial
culture fed constant amount of feed - it just stays there with minor
variations as new mutations sweep through the population. On the other
hand, supercomputers would accumulate change over long periods of time -
they would keep finding new solutions, exploring new mathematics - by not
using resources to generate conscious thought they would innovate. If the
innovations produced new resources (e.g. a magical gate to an NP-complete
oracle), the ratio of computation carried out by supercomputers to the
computation by breeders might increase.

I leave it for the reader to introduce intellectual property trade and
theft into this world and see how it works out under different assumptions
about their relative impacts on breeders and supers.

Rafal
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From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Mon Apr  6 06:17:02 2015
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2015 02:17:02 -0400
Subject: [ExI] [tt] Identity thread again
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv3J7Vumvfi9p9Uk4eUKkRBk=jiY9UX59OdFX2bbben8YQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJNwT_dtnSZWvwTgt_XVcFiA36jemtE=wKi-Jwzph_4TKTty5g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFhUkN+shikr2+7Waitr6gwPRqoaxHrY5Sb6trjT0OPu1Q@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CAL_armiHs9JSqnPEQT5itJz3EeVPaJ91vK+gRj-cNTjxDo3TJw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFjS+JfebSNsMie6ZmDk5Ms0VGX+Oz+FSrQ_o9E90QJsXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <51A3AC5E-7807-4333-98CD-5E68DA0A76EA@taramayastales.com>
 <CAAc1gFhTpGH9-u-ZX0mgm6+TnrDg6o_k8NFArkxhz+w8bD0Ssg@mail.gmail.com>
 <1845A1C3-088B-4DC5-85B3-5FEE8CA718FD@taramayastales.com>
 <CAAc1gFhwhTe7rSN=KToe0jbh1iaGX2VTb0=TQZEDajj+2pwvOQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv3J7Vumvfi9p9Uk4eUKkRBk=jiY9UX59OdFX2bbben8YQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAAc1gFgqFxJSySpeSwvcxpCeRVF7gT77WU97hntaraxiLgSfUA@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 2, 2015 at 3:25 PM, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Thu, Mar 26, 2015 at  Rafal Smigrodzki <rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > there will be a trade off between spawning independently goal-oriented
>> processes (copies) and running non-sentient optimization and search
>> processes.
>>
>
> You may create a copy of yourself to accomplish some specific sub-goal and
> after that has been accomplished you might want him to self destruct.
> However given the fact that he's identical to you as soon as he's created
> he would think it's a much better idea if you not him accomplish the
> sub-goal and then self destruct. In fact he might insist and sincerely
> believe that he is the original and you are the copy and it might be
> exceedingly difficult to convince him that is not the case. Actually it
> doesn't matter which is the original and which is the copy because they are
> identical.
>

### Well, I don't know about your copies, but my copy, after looking up its
location and determining it is a copy created to accomplish a goal, would
self-destruct in accordance with the decision that I, a mind identical to
it, made before being copying.

Rafal
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From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Mon Apr  6 06:25:42 2015
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2015 02:25:42 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Kingsman
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB5xQxX54d2wDvioOTT+PdqHZmyRHmY+J0kvXnV3cJK+QA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB5xQxX54d2wDvioOTT+PdqHZmyRHmY+J0kvXnV3cJK+QA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAAc1gFgU9hesLri=XoN-4EtoFWakY1Q_YoAmb=m7J9AuNZsKJw@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Apr 6, 2015 at 1:23 AM, Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> wrote:

>
> It?s quite strange to have the attitudes of people you were debating
> some 6 years ago define a movie villain.


### Think about how subversive this movie is of the usual tropes.
Upperclass white males are the good guys and their evil enemies are a black
man and a disabled woman (!). Evangelical Christians are victims of an
atrocity, not perpetrators. Global warming faith is the source of evil. I
am surprised there weren't howls of outrage from the usual suspects.

Rafal
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From anders at aleph.se  Mon Apr  6 09:16:42 2015
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2015 11:16:42 +0200
Subject: [ExI] fermi paradox again, was:   addiction
In-Reply-To: <008101d06fc3$edbd0cc0$c9372640$@att.net>
Message-ID: <2381876383-1178@secure.ericade.net>


spike <spike66 at att.net> , 5/4/2015 7:29 PM:



?
?>>?Long ago psychologists established that if you inserted a stimulator in a lab animal's pleasure centers, (in fact the studies that established the existence of them), the animal would make a response to get the stimulation until it fell over ?? BillW
?
>?Evolution has not had long enough to act on addiction, which is a maladaptive hijacking of a physiological system.-- Stathis Papaioannou
?
?
I haven?t looked at that list of possible explanations for the Fermi paradox to see if this is among them, but some massive nearly universal addiction could do it.?


I think it is on some lists. However, I don't buy it as an explanation. It is essentially the cultural convergence hypothesis.?


You need 100% addiction, not 95% (and in humans, most things that are addictive only for about 5%). If some individuals escape, they will be able to expand, breaking the paradox. There would also be selection for those immune to the addiction in this scenario. Essentially you need to posit that every civilization develops something super-addictive long before there is any chance of escape/expansion (there is a kind of time trade-off; today we need a fairly large chunk of human civilization to go somewhere else, but the size is declining: beyond a certain point even a handful of non-addicted individuals are enough to escape, so the addictiveness must *always* be higher than this limit).?




Imagine we discover a chemical which does that: creates that feeling for people in general, a real Love Potion Number 9.? It caused the addicted person to be still functional, not stoned as one on opium but definitely high.? Suppose it causes the addicted one to be kind, generous, good, charitable, optimistic, happy, that spectrum of euphoric emotions one feels when in love.? If such a thing is discovered, that could cause a society and even a technology-enabled species to lose interest in anything but having that potion.? Result: cosmic silence.




But some of us will want to help the aliens too! We will go there and give them an adapted version of the potion!



Anders Sandberg, Future of Humanity Institute Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University
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From anders at aleph.se  Mon Apr  6 09:02:23 2015
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2015 11:02:23 +0200
Subject: [ExI] [tt] Identity thread again
In-Reply-To: <CAAc1gFgqFxJSySpeSwvcxpCeRVF7gT77WU97hntaraxiLgSfUA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2381507373-1176@secure.ericade.net>


Rafal Smigrodzki <rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com> , 6/4/2015 8:19 AM:


On Thu, Apr 2, 2015 at 3:25 PM, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:


On Thu, Mar 26, 2015 at ?Rafal Smigrodzki <rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com> wrote:




> there will be a trade off between spawning independently goal-oriented processes (copies) and running non-sentient optimization and search processes.


You may create a copy of yourself to accomplish some specific sub-goal and after that has been accomplished you might want him to self destruct. However given the fact that he's identical to you as soon as he's created he would think it's a much better idea if you not him accomplish the sub-goal and then self destruct. In fact he might insist and sincerely believe that he is the original and you are the copy and it might be exceedingly difficult to convince him that is not the case. Actually it doesn't matter which is the original and which is the copy because they are identical. ??


### Well, I don't know about your copies, but my copy, after looking up its location and determining it is a copy created to accomplish a goal, would self-destruct in accordance with the decision that I, a mind identical to it, made before being copying.


Meanwhile the Anders-clan, believing 'Anders' to be the equivalence class of all sufficiently Anders-like processes is fine with having a lot of brief twigs on the main branches. It will have more resources running very fast Anderses, and it will also counteract the tendency of getting side tracked (since Anderses derived from my current instance likely have a high tendency for that).


The interesting case is how much I/we would consent to neural upgrading experiments. On one hand I am a bit more cautious there, but on the other hand I am also rather in favor of self-experimentation. Might be fun to see how it plays out.


My point is that some people may be very different in the styles they run their clans. Some do not accept at all being used as tools for somebody like them. Others think it is entirely OK.?

Anders Sandberg, Future of Humanity Institute Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Mon Apr  6 14:43:50 2015
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2015 09:43:50 -0500
Subject: [ExI] terry pratchett
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEatf3SAEsrdPC=OkT2Ukv3DrqZEoE9-2G9duWL+efT4dw@mail.gmail.com>

A last bit of fun from our recently deceased satirist:

(From 'A Blink of the Screen')

Annoia, or Paranoia Inversa:

The belief that you are out to get everyone.

Attention Surplus Syndrome (A.S.S):

Teachers find this as bad as the other sort.  No one likes a child who pays
attention too hard, whose eyes follow your every move, and who listens
carefully to everything you say.  Advanced cases correct spelling and
pronunciation in a clear piping voice, and point out errors of fact to the
rest of the class.

Bill W   (a rather uneven book, but it has its moments)
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From danust2012 at gmail.com  Mon Apr  6 14:50:33 2015
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan)
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2015 07:50:33 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Monster waves on Mars
Message-ID: <0723E3F1-10EB-4CC0-9DA4-922B358B435E@gmail.com>

http://m.space.com/28983-ancient-mars-oceans-big-waves.html

But could you surf on them? ;)

Dan
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From spike66 at att.net  Mon Apr  6 14:48:32 2015
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2015 07:48:32 -0700
Subject: [ExI] fermi paradox again, was:   addiction
In-Reply-To: <2381876383-1178@secure.ericade.net>
References: <008101d06fc3$edbd0cc0$c9372640$@att.net>
 <2381876383-1178@secure.ericade.net>
Message-ID: <015b01d07078$c1442740$43cc75c0$@att.net>

 

 

From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Anders Sandberg



 

Imagine we discover a chemical which does that: creates that feeling for people in general, a real Love Potion Number 9.  It caused the addicted person to be still functional, not stoned as one on opium but definitely high.  Suppose it causes the addicted one to be kind, generous, good, charitable, optimistic, happy, that spectrum of euphoric emotions one feels when in love.  If such a thing is discovered, that could cause a society and even a technology-enabled species to lose interest in anything but having that potion.  Result: cosmic silence.

 

>>?But some of us will want to help the aliens too! We will go there and give them an adapted version of the potion!  Anders Sandberg

 

Well now, leave it to Anders to think of that particular take on it.  {8^D

 

Anders, I would hand you the title of the most kindhearted loving person I know.  If not you, then my great grandmother, who was such a sweetie, I miss her to this day even though she has been gone 42 years.  This I will say without any reservation:  you are the most kindhearted, loving tech-enabled person I have ever met.  Anders me lad, thanks for being you.

 

That movie Keith describes is the disturbing flip side of the scenario: someone could come up with a Hate Potion Number 9.  

 

There is a scenario I heard described on the first day of the March 2003 US invasion of Iraq.  As the story goes, the Iraqi commanders were unhappy with the performance of the recruits when the first shots were being fired (they scattered in all directions (apparently displaying a reprehensible lack of enthusiasm for engaging in armed warfare against the US and Britain (imagine that.)))  So as the company prepared for the second encounter, those eager to fight confronted a pacifist, there was an angry exchange of words, and the firebrand shot the pacifist.  He exchanged words with a second soldier and was apparently dissatisfied with the answers for the second reluctant warrior also shot dead.  The third pacifist decided to suspend his beliefs temporarily and returned fire proactively, fatally fragging the lieutenant.  According to an account by a survivor, a close-range firefight broke out in the company of Iraqi warriors.  It was unclear who won that, but apparently the pacifists prevailed, for the company failed to show up for battle.

 

Keith?s evolutionary psychology notions could come into play a hundred different ways in a scenario involving close-range in-group fighting triggered by insufficient resources and known easily-foreseeable life-threatening shortages of everything.  We suspect the technology exists to harness space based power, but we also can see that humanity is collectively failing to make it happen.  We also know the consequences when cheap oil is no longer cheap.  We can see this coming.

 

spike

 

 

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From spike66 at att.net  Mon Apr  6 14:53:23 2015
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2015 07:53:23 -0700
Subject: [ExI] terry pratchett
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEatf3SAEsrdPC=OkT2Ukv3DrqZEoE9-2G9duWL+efT4dw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEatf3SAEsrdPC=OkT2Ukv3DrqZEoE9-2G9duWL+efT4dw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <016001d07079$6f07f2d0$4d17d870$@att.net>

 

 

From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace



Annoia, or Paranoia Inversa:

The belief that you are out to get everyone?Bill W 

 

My father-in-law is suffering from orexia calmosa.

spike

 

  

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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Mon Apr  6 16:28:45 2015
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2015 12:28:45 -0400
Subject: [ExI] fermi paradox again, was: addiction
In-Reply-To: <2381876383-1178@secure.ericade.net>
References: <008101d06fc3$edbd0cc0$c9372640$@att.net>
 <2381876383-1178@secure.ericade.net>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv05fTpLePgX68JkVHW5=544kwnVrcNhYuiW7YoaPSUt0w@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Apr 6, 2015 Anders Sandberg <anders at aleph.se> wrote:

> You need 100% addiction, not 95% (and in humans, most things that are
> addictive only for about 5%).
>

Yes but none of those humans had complete control of their emotional
control panel, if they did the results might be a positive feedback loop,
if so that would mean the end of human advancement. Glueing the happiness
knob to a 10 would obviously lead to stagnation, and if you rigged it to
give you a short blast of a 10 only when you discovered something as
important as General Relativity you'd be happy so rarely you'd eventually
change the settings. But maybe you could program it to give you almost as
much pleasure in seeking new knowledge as actually finding it, then
although a little short of a 10 you'd be very happy all the time and
maximally happy some of the time.  Maybe then you'd be able to resist
temptation and not fiddle around with that control panel anymore.

  John K Clark
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From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Mon Apr  6 16:34:29 2015
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2015 09:34:29 -0700
Subject: [ExI] . Re: addiction
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB6WZpoRuow3hmrPd41ZEPjKbGwpNjeQToFszASJCZWMiw@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Apr 6, 2015 at 5:00 AM,  William Flynn Wallace
<foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Sat, Apr 4, 2015 at 6:21 PM, Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I don't think people are going to get very far with understanding
>> addiction until they understand why human (some at least) can be
>> addicted at all.
>>
> It is difficult to see how this behavior could in any way help an animal to
> survive and breed.
>
> Stathis Papaioannou wrote:

> Evolution has not had long enough to act on addiction, which is a
> maladaptive hijacking of a physiological system.

Let me supply a hint.  Every characteristic in living things is the
result of positive selection unless it is a side effect of something
that is (or was) under positive selection.

Which is the capacity to be addicted?  Direct or a side effect?

Keith


From foozler83 at gmail.com  Mon Apr  6 16:38:57 2015
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2015 11:38:57 -0500
Subject: [ExI] fermi paradox again, was: addiction
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv05fTpLePgX68JkVHW5=544kwnVrcNhYuiW7YoaPSUt0w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <008101d06fc3$edbd0cc0$c9372640$@att.net>
 <2381876383-1178@secure.ericade.net>
 <CAJPayv05fTpLePgX68JkVHW5=544kwnVrcNhYuiW7YoaPSUt0w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYhyn8MX=oxRBZsf1xEqfhCt56Kfa9snXXSz0XrOQMLeQ@mail.gmail.com>

?<anders at aleph.se> wrote:

> You need 100% addiction, not 95% (and in humans, most things that are
> addictive only for about 5%).
>

I'd like to know where the 5% figure comes from.   I have to doubt that it
applies to all areas of addiction and if it distinguishes between chemical
dependency and psychological dependency.  bill w

?
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Mon Apr  6 16:57:56 2015
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2015 12:57:56 -0400
Subject: [ExI] [tt] Identity thread again
In-Reply-To: <CAAc1gFgqFxJSySpeSwvcxpCeRVF7gT77WU97hntaraxiLgSfUA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJNwT_dtnSZWvwTgt_XVcFiA36jemtE=wKi-Jwzph_4TKTty5g@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CAAc1gFjS+JfebSNsMie6ZmDk5Ms0VGX+Oz+FSrQ_o9E90QJsXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <51A3AC5E-7807-4333-98CD-5E68DA0A76EA@taramayastales.com>
 <CAAc1gFhTpGH9-u-ZX0mgm6+TnrDg6o_k8NFArkxhz+w8bD0Ssg@mail.gmail.com>
 <1845A1C3-088B-4DC5-85B3-5FEE8CA718FD@taramayastales.com>
 <CAAc1gFhwhTe7rSN=KToe0jbh1iaGX2VTb0=TQZEDajj+2pwvOQ@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAJPayv3Bz7fJARG=Zc37o3zwUmZUPyiGAqaWpvkrDs-EJ9mrGg@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Apr 6, 2015  Rafal Smigrodzki <rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com> wrote:

> Well, I don't know about your copies, but my copy, after looking up its
> location and determining it is a copy created to accomplish a goal, would
> self-destruct in accordance with the decision that I, a mind identical to
> it, made before being copying.
>

You think the other guy should slave away to accomplish some task and then
kill himself, but if the other guy's mind is identical to yours then he
thinks exactly the same thing and obviously that could lead to conflict.
Science can find no difference between the original and the copy but
whenever thought experiments of this sort come up people ALWAYS put
themselves in the place of the original. ALWAYS. Just once as a mental
exercise try putting yourself in the position of the copy. Would you even
believe me if I told you that you were the copy? Even if you did believe me
would you happily jump into a volcano if the original told you to? Why
doesn't the original jump into the volcano, the two of you are identical so
what makes him better than you?

  John K Clark
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From anders at aleph.se  Mon Apr  6 17:33:21 2015
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2015 19:33:21 +0200
Subject: [ExI] fermi paradox again, was: addiction
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYhyn8MX=oxRBZsf1xEqfhCt56Kfa9snXXSz0XrOQMLeQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2411023041-24148@secure.ericade.net>


William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com> , 6/4/2015 6:41 PM:


?<anders at aleph.se> wrote:



> You need 100% addiction, not 95% (and in humans, most things that are addictive only for about 5%).


I'd like to know where the 5% figure comes from. ? I have to doubt that it applies to all areas of addiction and if it distinguishes between chemical dependency and psychological dependency.? bill w


It is my loose hand-wave based on talking with people involved in addiction research (neuroscientists, psychologists, philosophers, criminologists). It is of course different for different drugs and types of addiction, but the fact remains that most people when exposed to something addictive will not become addicted.?


There is a lot of debate on whether "addictive personalities" actually exist, who have an increased risk, but they would of course just be a minority. And there are rather impressive demonstrations of context dependency in addiction, such as the relative lack of continued dependency in medical patients after treatment or the radical reduction of recidivism by moving addicts to new locations.?


The "standard view" that people just become addicted when experiencing an addictor because it hijacks the reward system is an oversimplification: at the very least it interacts with context-dependent perception-action loops in the basal ganglia and frontal cortex.?

Anders Sandberg, Future of Humanity Institute Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University
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From spike66 at att.net  Mon Apr  6 17:35:19 2015
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2015 10:35:19 -0700
Subject: [ExI] fermi paradox again, was: addiction
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv05fTpLePgX68JkVHW5=544kwnVrcNhYuiW7YoaPSUt0w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <008101d06fc3$edbd0cc0$c9372640$@att.net>
 <2381876383-1178@secure.ericade.net>
 <CAJPayv05fTpLePgX68JkVHW5=544kwnVrcNhYuiW7YoaPSUt0w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <02ae01d07090$0dd181e0$297485a0$@att.net>

 

 

From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of John Clark
Sent: Monday, April 06, 2015 9:29 AM
To: ExI chat list
Subject: Re: [ExI] fermi paradox again, was: addiction

 

On Mon, Apr 6, 2015 Anders Sandberg <anders at aleph.se> wrote:

 

> You need 100% addiction, not 95% (and in humans, most things that are addictive only for about 5%).

 

>? Glueing the happiness knob to a 10 would obviously lead to stagnation, and if you rigged it to give you a short blast of a 10 only when you discovered something as important as General Relativity you'd be happy so rarely you'd eventually change the settings. ?  Maybe then you'd be able to resist temptation and not fiddle around with that control panel anymore.  John K Clark

 

 

Ja.  Anders is involved in a group which is about effective altruism.  He is sitting second from right, second row in the yellow shirt in this picture:

 

http://www.effectivealtruismsummit.com/

 

Anders that is you there, ja?  Those of you who know Peter McCluskey will see him standing fourth row back, center, white T-shirt with black collar.  I see several of the usual suspects in that photo, the thumbs up guy next to Anders has been seen at local futurist activities (don?t know his name), Eliezer Yudkowsky is standing four rows back far right, I see Mike back there (don?t recall his last name) and his friend Sarah, I see Jill, looks like Dr. Voss back there, I see that EFF friend of Anders over on the left with his back against the white board with whom I enjoyed a really cool math geek discussion at his house, several other tech and science geeks I have seen at the local H+, futurist and Extropian-oriented events.  I am delighted there is such a healthy intersection of those two sets, the H+ crowd and the effective altruism crowd.

 

What if we could figure out a way to tweak the feels-good knob to create positive feedback, give us a euphoric feeling over helping others, wouldn?t that be cool?  We fix it to give us a good feeling when we discover some new science or technology geek thing; then it acts as a force multiplier such that we can do more effective altruism.

 

spike

 

 

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From anders at aleph.se  Mon Apr  6 17:53:29 2015
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2015 19:53:29 +0200
Subject: [ExI] fermi paradox again, was:   addiction
In-Reply-To: <015b01d07078$c1442740$43cc75c0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <2412536468-12497@secure.ericade.net>


spike <spike66 at att.net> , 6/4/2015 5:04 PM:


?
>>?But some of us will want to help the aliens too! We will go there and give them an adapted version of the potion!? Anders Sandberg
?
Well now, leave it to Anders to think of that particular take on it.? {8^D
?
Anders, I would hand you the title of the most kindhearted loving person I know.? If not you, then my great grandmother, who was such a sweetie, I miss her to this day even though she has been gone 42 years.? This I will say without any reservation: ?you are the most kindhearted, loving tech-enabled person I have ever met.? Anders me lad, thanks for being you.


Aww, shucks :-)?


The interesting thing is of course how to enable people to be nice. It takes a fair bit of energy - from returning politeness to figuring out what makes people happy. Empathy is also tricky work, not to mention sympathy or other enablers for wanting people to feel good. I suspect we might have to invent something like how Facebook amplifies weak social relations and gossip but for maintaining emotional relations better. I think there is loads of tech we could build for improving kindness. Over in Oxford we talk a lot about moral enhancement, but actually niceness enhancement may be a lower-hanging fruit and quite powerful on its own.?





?That movie Keith describes is the disturbing flip side of the scenario: someone could come up with a Hate Potion Number 9.?


There are some worrying results about oxytocin, which makes you nicer - to those you consider to be your in-group.?


Generally, if we can control our emotions we should be careful about who gets to control us. But the paradox is that niceness is in a sense emotion influence: when I do something nice for somebody I *plan* on them enjoying it. It is just that it occurs between peers, and through external means: a greeting card or gift, rather than a dopamine increase. People can integrate the experience through their conscious mind and give it meaning according to their beliefs, rather have meaning be defined externally.?



Anders Sandberg, Future of Humanity Institute Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University
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From anders at aleph.se  Mon Apr  6 18:03:57 2015
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2015 20:03:57 +0200
Subject: [ExI] fermi paradox again, was: addiction
In-Reply-To: <02ae01d07090$0dd181e0$297485a0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <2413811604-18720@secure.ericade.net>


spike <spike66 at att.net> , 6/4/2015 7:52 PM:



?
Anders that is you there, ja?


Yup. That was a fun meeting. People trying to make the world better on the largest scale, whether in terms of material standards, health, tech or safety.?




?? I am delighted there is such a healthy intersection of those two sets, the H+ crowd and the effective altruism crowd.


Here is a cool map of Bay Area meme space showing some of the reasons for the overlap:?http://lesswrong.com/lw/ipm/a_map_of_bay_area_memespace/





?
What if we could figure out a way to tweak the feels-good knob to create positive feedback, give us a euphoric feeling over helping others, wouldn?t that be cool?? We fix it to give us a good feeling when we discover some new science or technology geek thing; then it acts as a force multiplier such that we can do more effective altruism.
?


In many ways it already works like that. Not for everyone, not all the time. So even a way of strengthening it a bit would make a lot more people altruist, and make the nice ones nicer. However, just wanting to help may not be enough: many people hurt by trying to help in the wrong way or according to the wrong goals (imagine the helpful neighborhood fundamentalist). We need to improve intelligence too.?


Anders Sandberg, Future of Humanity Institute Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Mon Apr  6 19:16:54 2015
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2015 12:16:54 -0700
Subject: [ExI] fermi paradox again, was: addiction
In-Reply-To: <2413811604-18720@secure.ericade.net>
References: <02ae01d07090$0dd181e0$297485a0$@att.net>
 <2413811604-18720@secure.ericade.net>
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy1OHHXSx6a4DJ5hgyfVJL0k_DQ_-0bmXcQEUUTGpOgFfw@mail.gmail.com>

This thread reminds me of a short story (I do not remember the title or
author, unfortunately) set in a dark cyberpunk style universe, where
corporate leaders send out goons and assassins to retrieve a new biotech
formula which had been intended for mind control, but instead created the
"we are all brothers and sisters, and should love and care for each other"
feeling/attitude which Spike yearns for humanity to have in spades.  A
former academic turned thug/bounty hunter (it was a really bad economy)
finds the runaway scientist, and when he finds out the truth, turns against
his employers, and spreads the highly infectious agent among humanity.  The
story ends with the former thug returning to academia, with the nations of
the world involved in a massive building and restructuring program, to end
hunger and poverty.  Good had triumphed over greed, fear and apathy.

I need to track down the short story's title and author.  I think it was
only nine or ten pages, and yet it still deeply affected me, far more than
some novels I have read.  If the Outer Limits ever gets rebooted again,
this would make for the outline of a great episode.


John



On Mon, Apr 6, 2015 at 11:03 AM, Anders Sandberg <anders at aleph.se> wrote:

> spike <spike66 at att.net> , 6/4/2015 7:52 PM:
>
>
>
> Anders that is you there, ja?
>
>
> Yup. That was a fun meeting. People trying to make the world better on the
> largest scale, whether in terms of material standards, health, tech or
> safety.
>
>    I am delighted there is such a healthy intersection of those two sets,
> the H+ crowd and the effective altruism crowd.
>
>
> Here is a cool map of Bay Area meme space showing some of the reasons for
> the overlap: http://lesswrong.com/lw/ipm/a_map_of_bay_area_memespace/
>
>
>
> What if we could figure out a way to tweak the feels-good knob to create
> positive feedback, give us a euphoric feeling over helping others, wouldn?t
> that be cool?  We fix it to give us a good feeling when we discover some
> new science or technology geek thing; then it acts as a force multiplier
> such that we can do more effective altruism.
>
>
>
>
> In many ways it already works like that. Not for everyone, not all the
> time. So even a way of strengthening it a bit would make a lot more people
> altruist, and make the nice ones nicer. However, just wanting to help may
> not be enough: many people hurt by trying to help in the wrong way or
> according to the wrong goals (imagine the helpful neighborhood
> fundamentalist). We need to improve intelligence too.
>
>
> Anders Sandberg, Future of Humanity Institute Philosophy Faculty of Oxford
> University
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Mon Apr  6 19:31:20 2015
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2015 12:31:20 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Kingsman
In-Reply-To: <CAAc1gFgU9hesLri=XoN-4EtoFWakY1Q_YoAmb=m7J9AuNZsKJw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB5xQxX54d2wDvioOTT+PdqHZmyRHmY+J0kvXnV3cJK+QA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFgU9hesLri=XoN-4EtoFWakY1Q_YoAmb=m7J9AuNZsKJw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy2ieBf8SB6YBo_PfUmp5VmJO7svnVc4xr_Lk4A3v9tZ=A@mail.gmail.com>

It was definitely a fun and playful film, which I would recommend.  I loved
the umbrella that could deflect (most) bullets, and the evil Silicon Valley
multi-billionaire (Samuel L. Jackson was great in the role) who attempts
world conquest/genocide with freeware! lol  And I always viewed blade leg
prosthetics as somewhat sinister, so the female assassin sidekick played on
my discomfort.  And what happened to the world leaders, was highly
amusing!  ;  )

There are some very smart comic books out there, and so they should not
necessarily be looked down upon as a source for a film.  It is often what
Hollywood does to the source material, which is the problem.  But Kingsman
was done right.

John

On Sun, Apr 5, 2015 at 11:25 PM, Rafal Smigrodzki <
rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Mon, Apr 6, 2015 at 1:23 AM, Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>>
>> It?s quite strange to have the attitudes of people you were debating
>> some 6 years ago define a movie villain.
>
>
> ### Think about how subversive this movie is of the usual tropes.
> Upperclass white males are the good guys and their evil enemies are a black
> man and a disabled woman (!). Evangelical Christians are victims of an
> atrocity, not perpetrators. Global warming faith is the source of evil. I
> am surprised there weren't howls of outrage from the usual suspects.
>
> Rafal
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From spike66 at att.net  Mon Apr  6 19:34:47 2015
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2015 12:34:47 -0700
Subject: [ExI] fermi paradox again, was: addiction
In-Reply-To: <CAGSKFy1OHHXSx6a4DJ5hgyfVJL0k_DQ_-0bmXcQEUUTGpOgFfw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <02ae01d07090$0dd181e0$297485a0$@att.net>
 <2413811604-18720@secure.ericade.net>
 <CAGSKFy1OHHXSx6a4DJ5hgyfVJL0k_DQ_-0bmXcQEUUTGpOgFfw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000601d070a0$bed59110$3c80b330$@att.net>

 

 

From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of John Grigg



>?  Good had triumphed over greed, fear and apathy.  

I need to track down the short story's title and author.  I think it was only nine or ten pages, and yet it still deeply affected me, far more than some novels I have read.  If the Outer Limits ever gets rebooted again, this would make for the outline of a great episode.



John    





COOL!  John I am astonished anyone or your tender age has even heard of the Outer Limits.  Those are some of my fondest early childhood memories.  The Twilight Zone went off the air but they were still showing reruns of that for a long time, when Outer Limits came along and in some ways was even better than the Zone.

 

I had a problem.  Outer Limits started out each episode with the comment ??There is nothing wrong with your television set.  Do not attempt to adjust the picture?? etc, but in this they were dead wrong, for there was nearly always something wrong with our TV set: it sucked beyond recognition.

 

On top of that, we only got one channel with a good solid signal, CBS channel 6.  Outer Limits was on ABC channel 2, which we could get marginally if we turned the antenna toward Orlando when it wasn?t raining and held our mouths right.  TVs in those days had a thing called horizontal hold and vertical hold, which a prole really did need to adjust, early and often.  The antenna was outdoors, and had to be turned by hand, while keeping a wary eye for the sabre tooth tiger and tyrannosaurus rex, known to devour children sent out to turn the antenna.

 

You tell young people that today and they don?t believe it.

 

Outer Limits was wicked cool, but that didn?t last either, cancelled in about 1966.  Life went on however, for when Outer Limits was cancelled it was replaced by the stunning awesomeness which was Star Trek.  Now THAT was TV my young friends.

 

spike

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From stathisp at gmail.com  Mon Apr  6 19:53:15 2015
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2015 05:53:15 +1000
Subject: [ExI] fermi paradox again, was: addiction
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv05fTpLePgX68JkVHW5=544kwnVrcNhYuiW7YoaPSUt0w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <008101d06fc3$edbd0cc0$c9372640$@att.net>
 <2381876383-1178@secure.ericade.net>
 <CAJPayv05fTpLePgX68JkVHW5=544kwnVrcNhYuiW7YoaPSUt0w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAH=2ypVQomAe5d-n=bAWNZgPUFQwx0LyHVRmbeZ5DDc-2MFomQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tuesday, April 7, 2015, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mon, Apr 6, 2015 Anders Sandberg <anders at aleph.se
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','anders at aleph.se');>> wrote:
>
> > You need 100% addiction, not 95% (and in humans, most things that are
>> addictive only for about 5%).
>>
>
> Yes but none of those humans had complete control of their emotional
> control panel, if they did the results might be a positive feedback loop,
> if so that would mean the end of human advancement. Glueing the happiness
> knob to a 10 would obviously lead to stagnation, and if you rigged it to
> give you a short blast of a 10 only when you discovered something as
> important as General Relativity you'd be happy so rarely you'd eventually
> change the settings. But maybe you could program it to give you almost as
> much pleasure in seeking new knowledge as actually finding it, then
> although a little short of a 10 you'd be very happy all the time and
> maximally happy some of the time.  Maybe then you'd be able to resist
> temptation and not fiddle around with that control panel anymore.
>

You're ignoring other psychological factors. Some people - very many in
fact - don't use drugs to a harmful degree not because they don't like them
but because they don't want to. They're afraid of addiction, physical
problems, distraction from more productive activities. They resist despite
temptation, and sometimes it's very difficult. But if they could reprogram
their brains it would be much easier. In fact, they could reprogram their
brains to make themselves do something unpleasant which they consider
worthwhile, like hard work or exercise.


-- 
Stathis Papaioannou
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Mon Apr  6 20:05:52 2015
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2015 15:05:52 -0500
Subject: [ExI] fermi paradox again, was: addiction
In-Reply-To: <CAH=2ypVQomAe5d-n=bAWNZgPUFQwx0LyHVRmbeZ5DDc-2MFomQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <008101d06fc3$edbd0cc0$c9372640$@att.net>
 <2381876383-1178@secure.ericade.net>
 <CAJPayv05fTpLePgX68JkVHW5=544kwnVrcNhYuiW7YoaPSUt0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=2ypVQomAe5d-n=bAWNZgPUFQwx0LyHVRmbeZ5DDc-2MFomQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYMExAYb7uriK+_5bs1yTAshjHnaqxKY7FAhypUzDEOFw@mail.gmail.com>

?To Anders:

I have read that it takes at least two weeks to create a chemical
dependency even with heroin.  So between that and what you said, no one can
kidnap you and get you addicted to anything.  It puts those stories of
kidnapped women turned to prostitution and hooking them on drugs in context.

However, I did hear that crack cocaine could be instantly addicting,talking
to users (prob. psych., not chem.)

bill w?
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Mon Apr  6 20:25:38 2015
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2015 15:25:38 -0500
Subject: [ExI] terry pratchett
In-Reply-To: <016001d07079$6f07f2d0$4d17d870$@att.net>
References: <CAO+xQEatf3SAEsrdPC=OkT2Ukv3DrqZEoE9-2G9duWL+efT4dw@mail.gmail.com>
 <016001d07079$6f07f2d0$4d17d870$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbHdXy18TR-CrUpziLfO3=4a8ZnkxN+8aJvU=h5DXs-mg@mail.gmail.com>

I give up.  Calm appetite?  Can't get the word play.  bill w

On Mon, Apr 6, 2015 at 9:53 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *From:* extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] *On
> Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace
>
> Annoia, or Paranoia Inversa:
>
> The belief that you are out to get everyone?Bill W
>
>
>
> My father-in-law is suffering from orexia calmosa.
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Mon Apr  6 21:20:24 2015
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2015 16:20:24 -0500
Subject: [ExI] fermi paradox again, was: addiction
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYMExAYb7uriK+_5bs1yTAshjHnaqxKY7FAhypUzDEOFw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <008101d06fc3$edbd0cc0$c9372640$@att.net>
 <2381876383-1178@secure.ericade.net>
 <CAJPayv05fTpLePgX68JkVHW5=544kwnVrcNhYuiW7YoaPSUt0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=2ypVQomAe5d-n=bAWNZgPUFQwx0LyHVRmbeZ5DDc-2MFomQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYMExAYb7uriK+_5bs1yTAshjHnaqxKY7FAhypUzDEOFw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZ75jdQAHbeKqXbBvoPjG7v+MdxTXJm2_+YsObvusAh0g@mail.gmail.com>

 But if they could reprogram their brains it would be much easier. In fact,
they could reprogram their brains to make themselves do something
unpleasant which they consider worthwhile, like hard work or exercise.

Stathis Papaioannou


People do this every day, especially mothers.  Most people do not like
their jobs that much.  What would be nice would be a drug that made them
actually like it.

As for increasing intelligence, who can be against that?  But if you
supercharge a VW Beetle, you still have a slow bug.

Unless population goes down to next to nothing, we'll have plenty of high
IQ people.  What we should be trying to emulate is creativity.  Some highly
creative people are not all that intelligent (like Beethoven) and many high
IQ people are not creative.

bill w

On Mon, Apr 6, 2015 at 3:05 PM, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
wrote:

> ?To Anders:
>
> I have read that it takes at least two weeks to create a chemical
> dependency even with heroin.  So between that and what you said, no one can
> kidnap you and get you addicted to anything.  It puts those stories of
> kidnapped women turned to prostitution and hooking them on drugs in context.
>
> However, I did hear that crack cocaine could be instantly
> addicting,talking to users (prob. psych., not chem.)
>
> bill w?
>
>
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From spike66 at att.net  Mon Apr  6 21:36:04 2015
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2015 14:36:04 -0700
Subject: [ExI] terry pratchett
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEbHdXy18TR-CrUpziLfO3=4a8ZnkxN+8aJvU=h5DXs-mg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEatf3SAEsrdPC=OkT2Ukv3DrqZEoE9-2G9duWL+efT4dw@mail.gmail.com>
 <016001d07079$6f07f2d0$4d17d870$@att.net>
 <CAO+xQEbHdXy18TR-CrUpziLfO3=4a8ZnkxN+8aJvU=h5DXs-mg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <009f01d070b1$afcc79c0$0f656d40$@att.net>

 

My father-in-law is suffering from orexia calmosa.

spike

 I give up.  Calm appetite?  Can't get the word play.  bill w

 

He once suffered from anorexia nervosa, but over the years he managed to reverse that.  s

 

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From tara at taramayastales.com  Mon Apr  6 23:37:01 2015
From: tara at taramayastales.com (Tara Maya)
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2015 16:37:01 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The cult
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB5zfRX7DL_Vn943m41Z0Jzh9_0oxKw9opwdVy8wH67-6A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB5zfRX7DL_Vn943m41Z0Jzh9_0oxKw9opwdVy8wH67-6A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8771D59C-FC41-40BB-86FE-8C3A2099EF35@taramayastales.com>

Awesome.

Tara Maya
Blog  |  Twitter  |  Facebook  |  Amazon  |  Goodreads



> On Apr 5, 2015, at 12:34 PM, Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> As some of you know, I have been involved in getting the scientology
> cult laughed out of existence.
> 
> http://tonyortega.org/2015/04/05/saturday-night-lives-genius-spoof-of-scientology-last-night-lyrics-and-images/
> 
> Progress!
> 
> Keith
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat




From max at maxmore.com  Tue Apr  7 00:11:14 2015
From: max at maxmore.com (Max More)
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2015 17:11:14 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Kingsman
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB5xQxX54d2wDvioOTT+PdqHZmyRHmY+J0kvXnV3cJK+QA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB5xQxX54d2wDvioOTT+PdqHZmyRHmY+J0kvXnV3cJK+QA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJX-7wWk48Ea=_S7T7Vb8R76eXSESUd3wjRpraowgDL6kgPKLA@mail.gmail.com>

>
> ?
> It was a lot more interesting than you might expect for something

based off a comic book.
>

?Keith, clearly you don't read enough (good) comic books! (Or haven't
watched the several excellent comic book-based movies). I add my own
recommendation of Kingsman -- kind of a blend of James Bond, Austin Powers,
and (the first) Charlie's Angel's movie.

I'm not sure I'd call Gazelle "disabled". Having replacement blade-legs
didn't slow her down and made it much easier to slice people in two.

Here's a list of comics with transhumanist themes (plus some others that
are just really good), although I need to update it:

http://strategicphilosophy.blogspot.com/2009/05/comics-of-transhumanist-interest.html
?


On Sun, Apr 5, 2015 at 10:23 PM, Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Arel, my wife, is much more of a movie person than I am.  She wanted
> to see one, ?Kingsman: The Secret Service? so we went this evening
>
> IMDB describes it thus:  ?A super-secret spy organization recruits an
> unrefined but promising street kid into the agency's ultra-competitive
> training program just as a global threat emerges from a twisted tech
> genius.?
>
> It was a lot more interesting than you might expect for something
> based off a comic book.  It is set in a world where global warming is
> the consensus and said extremely rich tech genius dude by the name of
> Valentine (played by Samuel L. Jackson) decides the only way to cope
> is to kill most of the population.
>
> It?s full of comic book violence, but the underlying politics is
> rather interesting.  I didn't know the concerns about global warming
> and overpopulation had penetrated far enough into the culture to base
> a story on thwarting an evil genius whose idea of coping with global
> warming is by killing off most of the population by inducing them into
> a killing rage.  The fundamentalist church scene where the enraged
> congregation members are all armed and kill each other was an amusing
> twist.
>
> A few years ago I ran into a number of people with similar views to
> the Valentine character.  They didn?t think it was desirable to solve
> the energy problem and commented on one of my early power satellite
> article.  http://www.theoildrum.com/node/5485
>
> The raging debate over the desirability of solving the energy problem
> became so noisy that another blog commented on it.
>
> ?If you take a few minutes to read this blog, and again the comments,
> you find the dissonance on full display.  On the one hand you have a
> person saying that there may be an energy answer after fossil fuels.
> On the other hand you have lots of people not only saying it is not
> possible, but directly arguing that a human die-back is more desirable
> than cheap energy.?
>
>
> http://www.futurist.com/2009/06/15/energy-and-the-future-space-based-power-and-cognitive-dissonance/
>
> My sum up comment to the whole thing was:
>
> "Perhaps it is incorrect of me to assume they are in favor of a die
> off when they reject that there even could be a solution to the
> carbon/energy problems.  Operationally though it's the same thing."
>
> It?s quite strange to have the attitudes of people you were debating
> some 6 years ago define a movie villain.
>
> Keith
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>



-- 
Max More, PhD
Strategic Philosopher
Co-editor, *The Transhumanist Reader*
http://www.amazon.com/Transhumanist-Reader-Contemporary-Technology-Philosophy/dp/1118334310/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1372225570&sr=1-1&keywords=the+transhumanist+reader
President & CEO, Alcor Life Extension Foundation
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Tue Apr  7 00:21:13 2015
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2015 17:21:13 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Monster waves on Mars
In-Reply-To: <0723E3F1-10EB-4CC0-9DA4-922B358B435E@gmail.com>
References: <0723E3F1-10EB-4CC0-9DA4-922B358B435E@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy1zUq+KvLr1+BtcVuo6AijNYoPwc5VHD+Ffc_cYRigxcw@mail.gmail.com>

And so the surfers of a terraformed Mars, a few centuries from now, will be
doing surfing which will be so great, it would make present-day surfers cry
with envy! lol


John

On Mon, Apr 6, 2015 at 7:50 AM, Dan <danust2012 at gmail.com> wrote:

> http://m.space.com/28983-ancient-mars-oceans-big-waves.html
> <http://m.space.com/28983-ancient-mars-oceans-big-waves.html?cmpid=514648_20150406_43099906&adbid=584898935522603008&adbpl=tw&adbpr=15431856>
>
> But could you surf on them? ;)
>
> Dan
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Tue Apr  7 01:31:47 2015
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2015 21:31:47 -0400
Subject: [ExI] fermi paradox again, was: addiction
In-Reply-To: <CAH=2ypVQomAe5d-n=bAWNZgPUFQwx0LyHVRmbeZ5DDc-2MFomQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <008101d06fc3$edbd0cc0$c9372640$@att.net>
 <2381876383-1178@secure.ericade.net>
 <CAJPayv05fTpLePgX68JkVHW5=544kwnVrcNhYuiW7YoaPSUt0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=2ypVQomAe5d-n=bAWNZgPUFQwx0LyHVRmbeZ5DDc-2MFomQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv2tkKpeaM2dsCvN8T7hyqj0ArT7-Jha8D2f=VAA8tmzWQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Apr 6, 2015 Stathis Papaioannou <stathisp at gmail.com> wrote:

>  Some people - very many in fact - don't use drugs to a harmful degree
> not because they don't like them but because they don't want to. They're
> afraid of addiction, physical problems, distraction from more productive
> activities. They resist despite temptation
>

Yes but no human being has ever encountered a temptation as powerful as
having complete access to your emotional control panel.

  John K Clark
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From hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu  Mon Apr  6 21:01:38 2015
From: hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu (Henry Rivera)
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2015 17:01:38 -0400
Subject: [ExI] fermi paradox again, was: addiction
In-Reply-To: <000601d070a0$bed59110$3c80b330$@att.net>
References: <02ae01d07090$0dd181e0$297485a0$@att.net>
 <2413811604-18720@secure.ericade.net>
 <CAGSKFy1OHHXSx6a4DJ5hgyfVJL0k_DQ_-0bmXcQEUUTGpOgFfw@mail.gmail.com>
 <000601d070a0$bed59110$3c80b330$@att.net>
Message-ID: <19CCDFF4-180C-45C4-AFBC-E5FADCD21DB4@alumni.virginia.edu>


> On Apr 6, 2015, at 3:34 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>  
> Outer Limits was wicked cool, but that didn?t last either, cancelled in about 1966.  Life went on however, for when Outer Limits was cancelled it 

There was a reincarnation of Outer Limits in the 1990s I recall. He may be referring to that one. 
-Henry
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From danust2012 at gmail.com  Tue Apr  7 03:20:23 2015
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan)
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2015 20:20:23 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Monster waves on Mars
In-Reply-To: <CAGSKFy1zUq+KvLr1+BtcVuo6AijNYoPwc5VHD+Ffc_cYRigxcw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <0723E3F1-10EB-4CC0-9DA4-922B358B435E@gmail.com>
 <CAGSKFy1zUq+KvLr1+BtcVuo6AijNYoPwc5VHD+Ffc_cYRigxcw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7BE36223-C5EE-4E43-B7C6-A7A4DB4124A6@gmail.com>

On Apr 6, 2015, at 5:21 PM, John Grigg <possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> And so the surfers of a terraformed Mars, a few centuries from now, will be doing surfing which will be so great, it would make present-day surfers cry with envy! lol
> 
> John

An interplanetary endless summer? (Alluding the the classic surfer film. But perhaps "Riding Giants" would be the better allusion here.) 

Regards,

Dan
 Sample my Kindle books via:
http://www.amazon.com/Dan-Ust/e/B00J6HPX8M/
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From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Tue Apr  7 03:33:13 2015
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2015 23:33:13 -0400
Subject: [ExI] [tt] Identity thread again
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv3Bz7fJARG=Zc37o3zwUmZUPyiGAqaWpvkrDs-EJ9mrGg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJNwT_dtnSZWvwTgt_XVcFiA36jemtE=wKi-Jwzph_4TKTty5g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFhUkN+shikr2+7Waitr6gwPRqoaxHrY5Sb6trjT0OPu1Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armhpYWBhkGwUojFEmKrBETsRkFfVpxw97PbD0n_TsxGESA@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CAL_armiHs9JSqnPEQT5itJz3EeVPaJ91vK+gRj-cNTjxDo3TJw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFjS+JfebSNsMie6ZmDk5Ms0VGX+Oz+FSrQ_o9E90QJsXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <51A3AC5E-7807-4333-98CD-5E68DA0A76EA@taramayastales.com>
 <CAAc1gFhTpGH9-u-ZX0mgm6+TnrDg6o_k8NFArkxhz+w8bD0Ssg@mail.gmail.com>
 <1845A1C3-088B-4DC5-85B3-5FEE8CA718FD@taramayastales.com>
 <CAAc1gFhwhTe7rSN=KToe0jbh1iaGX2VTb0=TQZEDajj+2pwvOQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv3J7Vumvfi9p9Uk4eUKkRBk=jiY9UX59OdFX2bbben8YQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFgqFxJSySpeSwvcxpCeRVF7gT77WU97hntaraxiLgSfUA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv3Bz7fJARG=Zc37o3zwUmZUPyiGAqaWpvkrDs-EJ9mrGg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAAc1gFi-RqW90Oo9CekHTDC3pm613LkNJwmWFcwbwETkQ5-LOw@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Apr 6, 2015 at 12:57 PM, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mon, Apr 6, 2015  Rafal Smigrodzki <rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Well, I don't know about your copies, but my copy, after looking up its
>> location and determining it is a copy created to accomplish a goal, would
>> self-destruct in accordance with the decision that I, a mind identical to
>> it, made before being copying.
>>
>
> You think the other guy should slave away to accomplish some task and then
> kill himself, but if the other guy's mind is identical to yours then he
> thinks exactly the same thing and obviously that could lead to conflict.
> Science can find no difference between the original and the copy but
> whenever thought experiments of this sort come up people ALWAYS put
> themselves in the place of the original. ALWAYS. Just once as a mental
> exercise try putting yourself in the position of the copy. Would you even
> believe me if I told you that you were the copy? Even if you did believe me
> would you happily jump into a volcano if the original told you to? Why
> doesn't the original jump into the volcano, the two of you are identical so
> what makes him better than you?
>

### Of course I would. I would remember the decision to make a copy, and I
would know where the copy ends up. I would have no doubts about my position
and I would pursue the course of action I decided to follow before I made
the copy, the decision being incorporated into copy. There would be no
possibility of conflict. Obviously, I put myself in place of the copy AND
the original when indulging in this thought experiment. Obviously I would
act to further my ends, whether it means jumping into a volcano. Just to be
sure you realize - either the original of me or the copy would be willing
to jump. I might make the decision to make a backup copy in a safe place,
and then I, the original, would jump into the volcano. Seriously. You may
feel I am a bit funny in the head, and I guess you are right. I don't
expect all people to feel the same way I do.

I am one, but I hope to become many.

Rafa?
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From hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu  Mon Apr  6 23:18:21 2015
From: hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu (Henry Rivera)
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2015 19:18:21 -0400
Subject: [ExI] fermi paradox again, was: addiction
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYhyn8MX=oxRBZsf1xEqfhCt56Kfa9snXXSz0XrOQMLeQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <008101d06fc3$edbd0cc0$c9372640$@att.net>
 <2381876383-1178@secure.ericade.net>
 <CAJPayv05fTpLePgX68JkVHW5=544kwnVrcNhYuiW7YoaPSUt0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYhyn8MX=oxRBZsf1xEqfhCt56Kfa9snXXSz0XrOQMLeQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMdUVLwif5gcHEnGJY4mZk8QKSOUUGonv2STkdZoivqeXLVHUw@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Apr 6, 2015 at 12:38 PM, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
wrote:

> ?<anders at aleph.se> wrote:
>
> > You need 100% addiction, not 95% (and in humans, most things that are
>> addictive only for about 5%).
>>
>
> I'd like to know where the 5% figure comes from.   I have to doubt that it
> applies to all areas of addiction and if it distinguishes between chemical
> dependency and psychological dependency.  bill w
>
> ?
>
> Prevalence data on developing dependence are included in the attached
article. I've seen newer data from NIDA, I think, and it's basically the
same.

-Henry
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From stathisp at gmail.com  Tue Apr  7 08:38:11 2015
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2015 18:38:11 +1000
Subject: [ExI] fermi paradox again, was: addiction
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv2tkKpeaM2dsCvN8T7hyqj0ArT7-Jha8D2f=VAA8tmzWQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <008101d06fc3$edbd0cc0$c9372640$@att.net>
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 <CAJPayv05fTpLePgX68JkVHW5=544kwnVrcNhYuiW7YoaPSUt0w@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAH=2ypVW+Vh0PYQtzFG=SV3Ta4tqWAoRCryw0OsnOeVPY-U4wQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tuesday, April 7, 2015, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mon, Apr 6, 2015 Stathis Papaioannou <stathisp at gmail.com
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','stathisp at gmail.com');>> wrote:
>
> >  Some people - very many in fact - don't use drugs to a harmful degree
>> not because they don't like them but because they don't want to. They're
>> afraid of addiction, physical problems, distraction from more productive
>> activities. They resist despite temptation
>>
>
> Yes but no human being has ever encountered a temptation as powerful as
> having complete access to your emotional control panel.
>

If you're worried about the temptation you can just remove it. People who
are addicted to drugs often say they wish they could remove the urge to
use, but they can't. The urge to have an experience is related to how
pleasant it is anticipated the experience will be, but that is not all
there is to it.


-- 
Stathis Papaioannou
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Tue Apr  7 13:53:24 2015
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2015 08:53:24 -0500
Subject: [ExI] shoes and boots: tanstaafl
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEY8DJj1fFnyH=1o0=AhSDN=ctvGJAeSHWjvOneqfoFX_g@mail.gmail.com>

An article in Nature discusses an exoskeleton boot that makes walking a bit
easier.  Of course you have seen ads for a tennis shoe with a spring in the
heel.

So, you physicists out there, there's no such thing as a free lunch, is
there?

bill w
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From spike66 at att.net  Tue Apr  7 16:20:10 2015
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2015 09:20:10 -0700
Subject: [ExI] shoes and boots: tanstaafl
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEY8DJj1fFnyH=1o0=AhSDN=ctvGJAeSHWjvOneqfoFX_g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEY8DJj1fFnyH=1o0=AhSDN=ctvGJAeSHWjvOneqfoFX_g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <021601d0714e$b91a4a00$2b4ede00$@att.net>

 

 

From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace
Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2015 6:53 AM
To: ExI chat list
Subject: [ExI] shoes and boots: tanstaafl

 

An article in Nature discusses an exoskeleton boot that makes walking a bit easier.  Of course you have seen ads for a tennis shoe with a spring in the heel.

So, you physicists out there, there's no such thing as a free lunch, is there?

bill w

 

 

 

Hi Bill,

 

There is no free lunch, but if we reduce waste, everyone gets more to eat.

 

The notion of spring heels and such may help reduce hysteresis losses inherent in bio-tissue.  When you walk, the heel goes mush reducing impact and resulting in friction losses.  Metal springs also have hysteresis losses but they are not much.  If you take a coil spring from your car, you can put energy into it by compression, then it will store the energy and give almost all of it back at any later time.  It gives back a little less force times distance than it took to compress it, but the loss is small; we call that loss hysteresis (sounds a little like a disease specific to women, but it isn?t.)  In living tissue the loss is large.  

 

Now consider shoes.  If you have clunky hard shoes there is a lot of energy loss in just walking.  The clop clop sound takes energy, and that energy is not recovered.  If you get soft foam rubber running shoes, those make almost no sound, but there is still hysteresis loss in the compression of the foam rubber.  It is a good deal in that case, because it supplies padding to reduce impact on the knees.

 

Now consider those metal blades that South African Olympian used.  Very efficient (notice no noise) very low hysteresis loss.  It stands to reason that guy shouldn?t be allowed to compete with runners who have bio-feet.  That isn?t a fair playing field.

 

The spring-heel shoes: hard to say.  I knew a guy who wore them for years and insisted they work for him.  It stands to reason it *might* make walking easier.  Try it, me lad.

 

spike

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From pharos at gmail.com  Tue Apr  7 17:05:38 2015
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2015 18:05:38 +0100
Subject: [ExI] shoes and boots: tanstaafl
In-Reply-To: <021601d0714e$b91a4a00$2b4ede00$@att.net>
References: <CAO+xQEY8DJj1fFnyH=1o0=AhSDN=ctvGJAeSHWjvOneqfoFX_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <021601d0714e$b91a4a00$2b4ede00$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAL_armifRZz5T9Sy40qkT_wKr_kOWoN_K+N1xZSXTJOQeMV71g@mail.gmail.com>

On 7 April 2015 at 17:20, spike  wrote:
<snip>
> Now consider those metal blades that South African Olympian used.  Very
> efficient (notice no noise) very low hysteresis loss.  It stands to reason
> that guy shouldn't be allowed to compete with runners who have bio-feet.
> That isn't a fair playing field.
>
> The spring-heel shoes: hard to say.  I knew a guy who wore them for years
> and insisted they work for him.  It stands to reason it *might* make walking
> easier.  Try it, me lad.
>


Isn't it simply that the human animal is a general purpose system?
Special shoes can help walking, but be a hindrance for climbing or running.

That's the problem with transhumans trying to improve the human body.
Get better at some things and get worse at others. It's a tricky
problem.

BillK


From anders at aleph.se  Tue Apr  7 19:18:16 2015
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2015 21:18:16 +0200
Subject: [ExI] shoes and boots: tanstaafl
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armifRZz5T9Sy40qkT_wKr_kOWoN_K+N1xZSXTJOQeMV71g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2504592561-14140@secure.ericade.net>


BillK <pharos at gmail.com> , 7/4/2015 7:08 PM:

That's the problem with transhumans trying to improve the human body. 
Get better at some things and get worse at others. It's a tricky 
problem. 

Not if you know what you will be doing.?


Yes, planning for surprise eventualities has a place, but most of our modern lives are fantastically predictable. I know to the minute when I will wake up tomorrow, when I will be moving where, a large chunk of the tasks I will be doing (and what cognitive, technical and emotional faculties I will be using for them). I can predict the kind of environments I will walk in (home, pavement, airport, office building) and the kind of physical tasks I will do (mostly handing people slips of paper and plastic, lugging around a rucksack of a well-defined weight, and reading from a pile of papers). Much of this would be astonishing to a hunter-gatherer who rarely experienced routine and standardization. This is why I would be able to boost myself tremendously by specializing my body temporarily for these tasks, even if that made me far worse at handling the wilderness, woodcarving, free-form debate, swimming or broad attention.?


As our ability to predict what we will need to do or be improves, we will likely improve. The main limiting factors are unpredictability and the speed/cost of shifting to another specialization.?




Anders Sandberg, Future of Humanity Institute Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University
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From pharos at gmail.com  Tue Apr  7 22:00:39 2015
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2015 23:00:39 +0100
Subject: [ExI] shoes and boots: tanstaafl
In-Reply-To: <2504592561-14140@secure.ericade.net>
References: <CAL_armifRZz5T9Sy40qkT_wKr_kOWoN_K+N1xZSXTJOQeMV71g@mail.gmail.com>
 <2504592561-14140@secure.ericade.net>
Message-ID: <CAL_armjfQm3Ox84+TW93e7fOLLrTCXsG02=ZmrXA7DA59mkxMg@mail.gmail.com>

On 7 April 2015 at 20:18, Anders Sandberg  wrote:
> Yes, planning for surprise eventualities has a place, but most of our modern
> lives are fantastically predictable. I know to the minute when I will wake
> up tomorrow, when I will be moving where, a large chunk of the tasks I will
> be doing (and what cognitive, technical and emotional faculties I will be
> using for them). I can predict the kind of environments I will walk in
> (home, pavement, airport, office building) and the kind of physical tasks I
> will do (mostly handing people slips of paper and plastic, lugging around a
> rucksack of a well-defined weight, and reading from a pile of papers). Much
> of this would be astonishing to a hunter-gatherer who rarely experienced
> routine and standardization. This is why I would be able to boost myself
> tremendously by specializing my body temporarily for these tasks, even if
> that made me far worse at handling the wilderness, woodcarving, free-form
> debate, swimming or broad attention.
>
> As our ability to predict what we will need to do or be improves, we will
> likely improve. The main limiting factors are unpredictability and the
> speed/cost of shifting to another specialization.
>


That sounds as though you don't need much enhancement!  :)

Better eyesight is an easy choice. And a baldness cure.  ;)  And most
cosmetic changes.

Though for present day humans physical enhancement for daily
activities would possibly be bad for us. Physical exercise is
life-extending. The modern 'couch-potato' lifestyle is not healthy.
Reminds me of the contradiction of people driving in comfort to the
fitness centre instead of just cycling or walking and avoiding the
need for extra exercise.

Enhancements / replacements for the disabled, of course. And possibly
enhancements for specific tasks that are beyond normal capability.
e.g. lifting heavy objects.  But robots may soon do all the heavy
dangerous jobs.

Intelligence enhancements could be useful. But I would be cautious.
What are the side-effects? Will ordinary life become too boring? Will
ordinary people become too boring? Will high IQ people stop having
children? Will mental problems develop?

History shows that almost every change in society has unexpected
consequences. It is a universal human experience that often if they
had realised that y would happen then they wouldn't have done x in the
first place.
(This is rationalised by saying that you can't make an omelette
without breaking eggs).

BillK


From tara at taramayastales.com  Tue Apr  7 23:09:43 2015
From: tara at taramayastales.com (Tara Maya)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2015 16:09:43 -0700
Subject: [ExI] [tt] Identity thread again
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv3Bz7fJARG=Zc37o3zwUmZUPyiGAqaWpvkrDs-EJ9mrGg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJNwT_dtnSZWvwTgt_XVcFiA36jemtE=wKi-Jwzph_4TKTty5g@mail.gmail.com>
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My copy would be too chicken to jump into a volcano, but I would know that before making a copy, and never ask my copy to do so. If my copy had to self-destruct after completing a task, it would have to be quick and painless. Otherwise, I wouldn?t be able to make copies? I couldn?t bear the thought of hurting them or myself, I suspect.

But I also suspect I would be reluctant to destroy my copies. I would want to keep them all around as friends. So I might not be quite as efficient at making copies, preferring to have a few sturdy branches that kept growing to a multiplicity of stubby twigs.

Tara Maya
Blog <http://taramayastales.blogspot.com/>  |  Twitter <https://twitter.com/taramayastales>  |  Facebook <http://www.facebook.com/pages/The-Unfinished-Song-Epic-Fantasy/310271375658211?ref=hl>  |  Amazon <http://www.amazon.com/Tara-Maya/e/B004HAI038/ref=sr_tc_2_0?qid=1349796143&sr=8-2-ent>  |  Goodreads <http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/2951879.Tara_Maya>



> On Apr 6, 2015, at 9:57 AM, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> On Mon, Apr 6, 2015  Rafal Smigrodzki <rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com <mailto:rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com>> wrote:
> 
> > Well, I don't know about your copies, but my copy, after looking up its location and determining it is a copy created to accomplish a goal, would self-destruct in accordance with the decision that I, a mind identical to it, made before being copying.
> 
> You think the other guy should slave away to accomplish some task and then kill himself, but if the other guy's mind is identical to yours then he thinks exactly the same thing and obviously that could lead to conflict. Science can find no difference between the original and the copy but whenever thought experiments of this sort come up people ALWAYS put themselves in the place of the original. ALWAYS. Just once as a mental exercise try putting yourself in the position of the copy. Would you even believe me if I told you that you were the copy? Even if you did believe me would you happily jump into a volcano if the original told you to? Why doesn't the original jump into the volcano, the two of you are identical so what makes him better than you?  
> 
>   John K Clark   
> 
>  
> 
>  
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

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From tara at taramayastales.com  Tue Apr  7 23:13:20 2015
From: tara at taramayastales.com (Tara Maya)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2015 16:13:20 -0700
Subject: [ExI] fermi paradox again, was: addiction
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYMExAYb7uriK+_5bs1yTAshjHnaqxKY7FAhypUzDEOFw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <008101d06fc3$edbd0cc0$c9372640$@att.net>
 <2381876383-1178@secure.ericade.net>
 <CAJPayv05fTpLePgX68JkVHW5=544kwnVrcNhYuiW7YoaPSUt0w@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <46A245AC-841F-42C4-92B3-A76DC31B1EF4@taramayastales.com>

Well, women who are kidnapped and addicted to crack or whatever are also being beaten, raped and surrounded by other women already addicted to crack. There?s often usually good reasons for them to fear they have no way to escape and no other serious options. 
 
I suspect that helps the addiction gain a toehold. 

Tara Maya
Blog <http://taramayastales.blogspot.com/>  |  Twitter <https://twitter.com/taramayastales>  |  Facebook <http://www.facebook.com/pages/The-Unfinished-Song-Epic-Fantasy/310271375658211?ref=hl>  |  Amazon <http://www.amazon.com/Tara-Maya/e/B004HAI038/ref=sr_tc_2_0?qid=1349796143&sr=8-2-ent>  |  Goodreads <http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/2951879.Tara_Maya>



> On Apr 6, 2015, at 1:05 PM, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> ?To Anders:
> 
> I have read that it takes at least two weeks to create a chemical dependency even with heroin.  So between that and what you said, no one can kidnap you and get you addicted to anything.  It puts those stories of kidnapped women turned to prostitution and hooking them on drugs in context.
> 
> However, I did hear that crack cocaine could be instantly addicting,talking to users (prob. psych., not chem.)
> 
> bill w?
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

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From sjv2006 at gmail.com  Wed Apr  8 00:19:21 2015
From: sjv2006 at gmail.com (Stephen Van Sickle)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2015 17:19:21 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Kingsman
In-Reply-To: <CAAc1gFgU9hesLri=XoN-4EtoFWakY1Q_YoAmb=m7J9AuNZsKJw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB5xQxX54d2wDvioOTT+PdqHZmyRHmY+J0kvXnV3cJK+QA@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CADYziYD2Q0tEc63_MEY0RMd4G7Za1hhijUeOb8EamDgW-wc3-w@mail.gmail.com>

>
> Think about how subversive this movie is of the usual tropes.
>

I will not be able to hear "Land of Hope and Glory" played without a grin
on my face.

s
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From anders at aleph.se  Wed Apr  8 06:56:03 2015
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2015 08:56:03 +0200
Subject: [ExI] fermi paradox again, was: addiction
In-Reply-To: <46A245AC-841F-42C4-92B3-A76DC31B1EF4@taramayastales.com>
Message-ID: <2546925855-28008@secure.ericade.net>


Tara Maya <tara at taramayastales.com> , 8/4/2015 1:16 AM:


Well, women who are kidnapped and addicted to crack or whatever are also being beaten, raped and surrounded by other women already addicted to crack. There?s often usually good reasons for them to fear they have no way to escape and no other serious options.?

There is the issue of "rational addiction": if your life is lousy, drugs might actually make it better. Especially if it is so dangerous or uncertain that you should discount the future heavily.?


But the social aspect of drug use is important and often overlooked. Enhancement use is just as linked to social network as recreational drug use: it is very different between different colleges at the same university, and if your friends or colleagues use enhancers you are more likely to use too. Partially because you can get support, advice and supplies.?










Anders Sandberg, Future of Humanity Institute Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University
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From protokol2020 at gmail.com  Wed Apr  8 07:04:02 2015
From: protokol2020 at gmail.com (Tomaz Kristan)
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2015 09:04:02 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Fermi question, possible answer
In-Reply-To: <CALMrAFTTFJgMjftQRB7X1EXcJBYA3E_LX05qrZbhvM_vZgfqGg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv0E9fgUqaH5u+R76tjCW8Cky94n44cy2sde0RQOpm50bA@mail.gmail.com>
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This is perhaps clearer, why a faster rotating planet is warmer, everything
else equal.

https://protokol2020.wordpress.com/2013/07/02/faster-is-hotter-in-planetary-rotation-really/

On Sat, Apr 4, 2015 at 6:35 PM, Tomaz Kristan <protokol2020 at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Faster rotation is a cause of warming. Please see why.
>
> https://protokol2020.wordpress.com/2013/07/04/planet-rotation-extreme-case/
>
> On Sat, Apr 4, 2015 at 6:09 PM, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> On Sat, Apr 4, 2015 Tomaz Kristan <protokol2020 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > What is known as the faint sun paradox - why was so warm on Earth back
>>> when our Sun was much fainter
>>>
>>
>> Even more paradoxical is that 3 billion years ago on Mars, which is
>> further from that fainter sun than the Earth, it was warm enough for liquid
>> water to exist on it's surface. It's odd.
>>
>>
>>> > has a strange answer. Be cause our planet rotated faster!
>>>
>>
>> Earth once rotated in less than 6 hours but back then the moon was much
>> closer and it's tidal forces slowed the rotation to 24 hours and is still
>> slowing it down; but angular momentum must be conserved so as the Earth
>> slows down the moon goes further away. Mars has no large moon to slow it
>> down and yet strangely it has almost the same rotational period as the
>> Earth. Coincidence I guess.
>>
>>
>>> > Yes, that's right. A faster rotating planet is warmer!
>>>
>>
>> I have heard that global warming could increase the rotation of the Earth
>> because water expands when it gets warmer and water would tend to move from
>> the equator to the poles, but it's a very small effect, less than a millisecond;
>> and the faster rotation is a effect of warming not a cause.
>>
>>   John K Clark
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> https://protokol2020.wordpress.com/
>



-- 
https://protokol2020.wordpress.com/
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Wed Apr  8 17:43:22 2015
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2015 13:43:22 -0400
Subject: [ExI] [tt] Identity thread again
In-Reply-To: <CAAc1gFi-RqW90Oo9CekHTDC3pm613LkNJwmWFcwbwETkQ5-LOw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJNwT_dtnSZWvwTgt_XVcFiA36jemtE=wKi-Jwzph_4TKTty5g@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CAAc1gFhTpGH9-u-ZX0mgm6+TnrDg6o_k8NFArkxhz+w8bD0Ssg@mail.gmail.com>
 <1845A1C3-088B-4DC5-85B3-5FEE8CA718FD@taramayastales.com>
 <CAAc1gFhwhTe7rSN=KToe0jbh1iaGX2VTb0=TQZEDajj+2pwvOQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv3J7Vumvfi9p9Uk4eUKkRBk=jiY9UX59OdFX2bbben8YQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFgqFxJSySpeSwvcxpCeRVF7gT77WU97hntaraxiLgSfUA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv3Bz7fJARG=Zc37o3zwUmZUPyiGAqaWpvkrDs-EJ9mrGg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFi-RqW90Oo9CekHTDC3pm613LkNJwmWFcwbwETkQ5-LOw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv0ok=QkA-jsrfQTO=Ug_Ye83ZBTQ8zaPvsUD5wqQm=uUQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Apr 6, 2015  Rafal Smigrodzki <rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com> wrote:

> > You think the other guy should slave away to accomplish some task and
>> then kill himself, but if the other guy's mind is identical to yours then
>> he thinks exactly the same thing and obviously that could lead to conflict.
>> Science can find no difference between the original and the copy but
>> whenever thought experiments of this sort come up people ALWAYS put
>> themselves in the place of the original. ALWAYS. Just once as a mental
>> exercise try putting yourself in the position of the copy. Would you even
>> believe me if I told you that you were the copy? Even if you did believe me
>> would you happily jump into a volcano if the original told you to? Why
>> doesn't the original jump into the volcano, the two of you are identical so
>> what makes him better than you?
>>
>
> > Of course I would.
>

Maybe, but you know what, I really doubt it. People have been known to
change their minds and for far less dramatic reasons than looking down into
a molten sea of red hot lava. You really don't think you might have second
thoughts about jumping in?


> > I would remember the decision to make a copy,
>

The 2 are identical, so why did the original decide that the copy should
jump into the volcano and not the original?


> > and I would know where the copy ends up.
>

Not necessarily, not if the duplication were made in a symmetrical room,
then one would remember that somebody that looked just like them suddenly
appeared on their left, and the other would remember that somebody that
looked just like them suddenly appeared on their right; and unless they had
access to an objective video recording of the entire duplicating procedure
which they're subjective memories could be compared with there would be no
way for either of them to know which one was the original and which one was
the copy. And given that they are identical there would be no reason to
care. Would you then agree to flip a coin to decide which one jumps into
the volcano and which one lives a long happy life?


> I would pursue the course of action I decided to follow before I made the
> copy, the decision being incorporated into copy.
>

Suppose that  before the copy was made you knew that it was the original
that would have to make the long climb up the mountain and jump into the
volcano while the copy with a pretty girl at his side would watch your
every step with binoculars, and then after you jumped in the copy would
continues to live a long and happy life. Would that in anyway effect your
decision to be duplicated?


> > There would be no possibility of conflict.
>

Both believe that the other guy should jump into the volcano, and I see the
possibility of conflict in that.


> > I might make the decision to make a backup copy in a safe place, and
> then I, the original, would jump into the volcano.
>

Under those circumstances I'd be willing to jump into the volcano too, but
only if the backup was made so close to the time I hit the lava that I had
no time to have a last thought. How long is that? A second or two. Having a
last thought is the part of death that I personally don't like much, but
there's no disputing matters of taste.

  John K Clark
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Wed Apr  8 20:13:39 2015
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2015 15:13:39 -0500
Subject: [ExI] [tt] Identity thread again
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv0ok=QkA-jsrfQTO=Ug_Ye83ZBTQ8zaPvsUD5wqQm=uUQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJNwT_dtnSZWvwTgt_XVcFiA36jemtE=wKi-Jwzph_4TKTty5g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFhUkN+shikr2+7Waitr6gwPRqoaxHrY5Sb6trjT0OPu1Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armhpYWBhkGwUojFEmKrBETsRkFfVpxw97PbD0n_TsxGESA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFgySJ4z7Eacb_Tfs84gZkvgKPwUS+RQWtCSwJspVueD+Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armiHs9JSqnPEQT5itJz3EeVPaJ91vK+gRj-cNTjxDo3TJw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFjS+JfebSNsMie6ZmDk5Ms0VGX+Oz+FSrQ_o9E90QJsXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <51A3AC5E-7807-4333-98CD-5E68DA0A76EA@taramayastales.com>
 <CAAc1gFhTpGH9-u-ZX0mgm6+TnrDg6o_k8NFArkxhz+w8bD0Ssg@mail.gmail.com>
 <1845A1C3-088B-4DC5-85B3-5FEE8CA718FD@taramayastales.com>
 <CAAc1gFhwhTe7rSN=KToe0jbh1iaGX2VTb0=TQZEDajj+2pwvOQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv3J7Vumvfi9p9Uk4eUKkRBk=jiY9UX59OdFX2bbben8YQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFgqFxJSySpeSwvcxpCeRVF7gT77WU97hntaraxiLgSfUA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv3Bz7fJARG=Zc37o3zwUmZUPyiGAqaWpvkrDs-EJ9mrGg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFi-RqW90Oo9CekHTDC3pm613LkNJwmWFcwbwETkQ5-LOw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv0ok=QkA-jsrfQTO=Ug_Ye83ZBTQ8zaPvsUD5wqQm=uUQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEaQHqU5PnBDBPsykkrZ+ROjQXJokb34POmw95782OFEgQ@mail.gmail.com>

Is there now or will there ever be a perfect hard drive/storage device?
No.  Then, no perfect copy.  bill w

On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 12:43 PM, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

>
> On Mon, Apr 6, 2015  Rafal Smigrodzki <rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > You think the other guy should slave away to accomplish some task and
>>> then kill himself, but if the other guy's mind is identical to yours then
>>> he thinks exactly the same thing and obviously that could lead to conflict.
>>> Science can find no difference between the original and the copy but
>>> whenever thought experiments of this sort come up people ALWAYS put
>>> themselves in the place of the original. ALWAYS. Just once as a mental
>>> exercise try putting yourself in the position of the copy. Would you even
>>> believe me if I told you that you were the copy? Even if you did believe me
>>> would you happily jump into a volcano if the original told you to? Why
>>> doesn't the original jump into the volcano, the two of you are identical so
>>> what makes him better than you?
>>>
>>
>> > Of course I would.
>>
>
> Maybe, but you know what, I really doubt it. People have been known to
> change their minds and for far less dramatic reasons than looking down into
> a molten sea of red hot lava. You really don't think you might have second
> thoughts about jumping in?
>
>
>> > I would remember the decision to make a copy,
>>
>
> The 2 are identical, so why did the original decide that the copy should
> jump into the volcano and not the original?
>
>
>> > and I would know where the copy ends up.
>>
>
> Not necessarily, not if the duplication were made in a symmetrical room,
> then one would remember that somebody that looked just like them suddenly
> appeared on their left, and the other would remember that somebody that
> looked just like them suddenly appeared on their right; and unless they had
> access to an objective video recording of the entire duplicating procedure
> which they're subjective memories could be compared with there would be no
> way for either of them to know which one was the original and which one was
> the copy. And given that they are identical there would be no reason to
> care. Would you then agree to flip a coin to decide which one jumps into
> the volcano and which one lives a long happy life?
>
>
>> I would pursue the course of action I decided to follow before I made the
>> copy, the decision being incorporated into copy.
>>
>
> Suppose that  before the copy was made you knew that it was the original
> that would have to make the long climb up the mountain and jump into the
> volcano while the copy with a pretty girl at his side would watch your
> every step with binoculars, and then after you jumped in the copy would
> continues to live a long and happy life. Would that in anyway effect your
> decision to be duplicated?
>
>
>> > There would be no possibility of conflict.
>>
>
> Both believe that the other guy should jump into the volcano, and I see
> the possibility of conflict in that.
>
>
>> > I might make the decision to make a backup copy in a safe place, and
>> then I, the original, would jump into the volcano.
>>
>
> Under those circumstances I'd be willing to jump into the volcano too, but
> only if the backup was made so close to the time I hit the lava that I had
> no time to have a last thought. How long is that? A second or two. Having a
> last thought is the part of death that I personally don't like much, but
> there's no disputing matters of taste.
>
>   John K Clark
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Wed Apr  8 21:06:29 2015
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2015 14:06:29 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The cult
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB7WScYTgt+Mer0GYgoa=g4DcruJ6PzDXhjojiTwRa_vcQ@mail.gmail.com>

Progress on one of my projects.

http://lightlybuzzed.com/2015/04/05/saturday-night-live-is-no-longer-afraid-of-scientology-video/

https://www.facebook.com/TheRealMikeRowe/posts/971620919514718:0

Keith


From spike66 at att.net  Wed Apr  8 22:52:09 2015
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2015 15:52:09 -0700
Subject: [ExI] cat fishing
Message-ID: <021201d0724e$a5de9df0$f19bd9d0$@att.net>

 

 

We are fortunate indeed to live in a day when everyone carries a phone and a
camera.

 

According to the guy who took this photo, he witnessed a bobcat at the
beach, watching a shark which was lunching on another fish.  The cat lunged
into the surf and caught the toothy bastard, and dragged him ashore.   Had
it not been for this photo, nooobody would believe that story.

 

spike 

 

 

https://scontent-lax.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/1475949_101531841198
03349_356051308007060177_n.jpg?oh=cd91c4c7fe8cfcda093f8ac88ecfaca8&oe=559E7B
71

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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Thu Apr  9 05:42:23 2015
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2015 22:42:23 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The cult
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB7WScYTgt+Mer0GYgoa=g4DcruJ6PzDXhjojiTwRa_vcQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB7WScYTgt+Mer0GYgoa=g4DcruJ6PzDXhjojiTwRa_vcQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy0V2hbdXf3khm4ic6uJzzXySOAgZY1jx=O7JV4b2xDw9g@mail.gmail.com>

Have you seen the new HBO documentary?

On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 2:06 PM, Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> wrote:

> Progress on one of my projects.
>
>
> http://lightlybuzzed.com/2015/04/05/saturday-night-live-is-no-longer-afraid-of-scientology-video/
>
> https://www.facebook.com/TheRealMikeRowe/posts/971620919514718:0
>
> Keith
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Thu Apr  9 16:15:03 2015
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2015 12:15:03 -0400
Subject: [ExI] [tt] Identity thread again
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEaQHqU5PnBDBPsykkrZ+ROjQXJokb34POmw95782OFEgQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJNwT_dtnSZWvwTgt_XVcFiA36jemtE=wKi-Jwzph_4TKTty5g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFhUkN+shikr2+7Waitr6gwPRqoaxHrY5Sb6trjT0OPu1Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armhpYWBhkGwUojFEmKrBETsRkFfVpxw97PbD0n_TsxGESA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFgySJ4z7Eacb_Tfs84gZkvgKPwUS+RQWtCSwJspVueD+Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armiHs9JSqnPEQT5itJz3EeVPaJ91vK+gRj-cNTjxDo3TJw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFjS+JfebSNsMie6ZmDk5Ms0VGX+Oz+FSrQ_o9E90QJsXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <51A3AC5E-7807-4333-98CD-5E68DA0A76EA@taramayastales.com>
 <CAAc1gFhTpGH9-u-ZX0mgm6+TnrDg6o_k8NFArkxhz+w8bD0Ssg@mail.gmail.com>
 <1845A1C3-088B-4DC5-85B3-5FEE8CA718FD@taramayastales.com>
 <CAAc1gFhwhTe7rSN=KToe0jbh1iaGX2VTb0=TQZEDajj+2pwvOQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv3J7Vumvfi9p9Uk4eUKkRBk=jiY9UX59OdFX2bbben8YQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFgqFxJSySpeSwvcxpCeRVF7gT77WU97hntaraxiLgSfUA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv3Bz7fJARG=Zc37o3zwUmZUPyiGAqaWpvkrDs-EJ9mrGg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFi-RqW90Oo9CekHTDC3pm613LkNJwmWFcwbwETkQ5-LOw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv0ok=QkA-jsrfQTO=Ug_Ye83ZBTQ8zaPvsUD5wqQm=uUQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEaQHqU5PnBDBPsykkrZ+ROjQXJokb34POmw95782OFEgQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv2SDM+y9ZnTmTtqw+LdnGX8E2GpLS06SzFcqYyuzG327g@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 8, 2015  William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Is there now or will there ever be a perfect hard drive/storage device?
> No.  Then, no perfect copy.
>

If perfection is required then "you" become a completely different person
every time "you" drink a cup of coffee and the entire idea of personal
identity, as well as personal pronouns like "you", become meaningless. Do
you really want to go down that road?

 John K Clark
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Thu Apr  9 16:29:52 2015
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2015 12:29:52 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Kingsman
In-Reply-To: <CADYziYD2Q0tEc63_MEY0RMd4G7Za1hhijUeOb8EamDgW-wc3-w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB5xQxX54d2wDvioOTT+PdqHZmyRHmY+J0kvXnV3cJK+QA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFgU9hesLri=XoN-4EtoFWakY1Q_YoAmb=m7J9AuNZsKJw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADYziYD2Q0tEc63_MEY0RMd4G7Za1hhijUeOb8EamDgW-wc3-w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv17NLLQsNRkRR-mpbBye-M0OwyXRFDOm2845zTGUTpt=Q@mail.gmail.com>

Speaking of graphic novels, I would recommend "Logicomix". Of all the comic
books that have Bertrand Russell, Kurt Godel and Ludwig Wittgenstein as the
super heroes Logicomix is probably the best. I would also recommend
"Feynman" by Ottaviani and Myrick about the life of Richard Feynman.

  John K Clark
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From anders at aleph.se  Thu Apr  9 19:32:21 2015
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2015 21:32:21 +0200
Subject: [ExI] [tt] Identity thread again
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv2SDM+y9ZnTmTtqw+LdnGX8E2GpLS06SzFcqYyuzG327g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2678587672-25917@secure.ericade.net>


John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> , 9/4/2015 6:18 PM:



On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 ?William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:


> Is there now or will there ever be a perfect hard drive/storage device?? No.? Then, no perfect copy. ?



If perfection is required then "you" become a completely different person every time "you" drink a cup of coffee and the entire idea of personal identity, as well as personal pronouns like "you", become meaningless. 


Bateson said "Information is the difference that makes the difference". A lot of questions about whether two things are the same can only be answered by looking at what makes a difference.?


Also, thanks to Shannon's work on coding theory, we know that information can be transmitted down noisy channels in ways that result in it having arbitrarily low probability of being distorted. We do not need perfect hard drives to make storage that doesn't lose a single bit over the history of the universe. RAID for the win.?



Anders Sandberg, Future of Humanity Institute Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Thu Apr  9 21:05:23 2015
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2015 16:05:23 -0500
Subject: [ExI] [tt] Identity thread again
In-Reply-To: <2678587672-25917@secure.ericade.net>
References: <CAJPayv2SDM+y9ZnTmTtqw+LdnGX8E2GpLS06SzFcqYyuzG327g@mail.gmail.com>
 <2678587672-25917@secure.ericade.net>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEaQFx==SDwQzu9g=7nitfWrqKV=+=GUSXfi7-+VtgPytw@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 2:32 PM, Anders Sandberg <anders at aleph.se> wrote:

> John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> , 9/4/2015 6:18 PM:
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 8, 2015  William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Is there now or will there ever be a perfect hard drive/storage device?
> No.  Then, no perfect copy.
>
>
> If perfection is required then "you" become a completely different person
> every time "you" drink a cup of coffee and the entire idea of personal
> identity, as well as personal pronouns like "you", become meaningless.
>
>
> Bateson said "Information is the difference that makes the difference". A
> lot of questions about whether two things are the same can only be answered
> by looking at what makes a difference.
>
> Also, thanks to Shannon's work on coding theory, we know that information
> can be transmitted down noisy channels in ways that result in it having
> arbitrarily low probability of being distorted. We do not need perfect hard
> drives to make storage that doesn't lose a single bit over the history of
> the universe. RAID for the win.
>
>
>
> Anders Sandberg, Future of Humanity Institute Philosophy Faculty of Oxford
> University
>

?Even Mother Nature doesn't make identical twins genetically identical, and
it does make a difference, though the idea that drinking a cup of coffee
makes me an entirely different person is a bit over the top, isn't it?

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/identical-twins-genes-are-not-identical/
bill w?


>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Fri Apr 10 01:30:19 2015
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2015 21:30:19 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Fwd:  [tt] Identity thread again
In-Reply-To: <CAAc1gFjir+yge=NkFPoD-TfjWUe43g1u5Hk9SeEgP4GZsBut7w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJNwT_dtnSZWvwTgt_XVcFiA36jemtE=wKi-Jwzph_4TKTty5g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFhUkN+shikr2+7Waitr6gwPRqoaxHrY5Sb6trjT0OPu1Q@mail.gmail.com>
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 <51A3AC5E-7807-4333-98CD-5E68DA0A76EA@taramayastales.com>
 <CAAc1gFhTpGH9-u-ZX0mgm6+TnrDg6o_k8NFArkxhz+w8bD0Ssg@mail.gmail.com>
 <1845A1C3-088B-4DC5-85B3-5FEE8CA718FD@taramayastales.com>
 <CAAc1gFhwhTe7rSN=KToe0jbh1iaGX2VTb0=TQZEDajj+2pwvOQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv3J7Vumvfi9p9Uk4eUKkRBk=jiY9UX59OdFX2bbben8YQ@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAAc1gFijG6UHyTXPx43JH5=DVrSyR3OMMW_HiN77ewSGLT5WNw@mail.gmail.com>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Rafal Smigrodzki <rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 9:29 PM
Subject: Re: [ExI] [tt] Identity thread again
To: John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com>




On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 1:43 PM, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Maybe, but you know what, I really doubt it. People have been known to
> change their minds and for far less dramatic reasons than looking down into
> a molten sea of red hot lava. You really don't think you might have second
> thoughts about jumping in?
>

### No, if I know I am not going to die, since there are other selves
alive, and would not suffer (I am assuming a 300 ft plunge into molten
stone would make me insensate in a fraction of a second), I would jump. If
I know it must be done (for whatever abstruse reason this particular
thought experiment demands), it will be done.

-------------

>
> Not necessarily, not if the duplication were made in a symmetrical room,
> then one would remember that somebody that looked just like them suddenly
> appeared on their left, and the other would remember that somebody that
> looked just like them suddenly appeared on their right; and unless they had
> access to an objective video recording of the entire duplicating procedure
> which they're subjective memories could be compared with there would be no
> way for either of them to know which one was the original and which one was
> the copy. And given that they are identical there would be no reason to
> care. Would you then agree to flip a coin to decide which one jumps into
> the volcano and which one lives a long happy life?
>

### Obviously, yes.

----------------

> Suppose that  before the copy was made you knew that it was the original
> that would have to make the long climb up the mountain and jump into the
> volcano while the copy with a pretty girl at his side would watch your
> every step with binoculars, and then after you jumped in the copy would
> continues to live a long and happy life. Would that in anyway effect your
> decision to be duplicated?
>
>

### No. We already established that the death of one of myselves is
necessary, in this thought experiment, presumably to further some of my
aims, and indeed a long and happy life is one of them. So, knowing that my
fiery death allows the remaining selves to live long and happy life would
actually strengthen my resolve. Conversely, knowing that the remaining
selves would be miserable would make the undertaking doubtful.
 --------------

>
> Under those circumstances I'd be willing to jump into the volcano too, but
> only if the backup was made so close to the time I hit the lava that I had
> no time to have a last thought. How long is that? A second or two. Having a
> last thought is the part of death that I personally don't like much, but
> there's no disputing matters of taste.
>

### Well, tastes differ. I would be perfectly OK with dying even if my copy
or copies carried only a small fraction of the data in my brain, as long as
they contained all the protected memories - a rather small collection of
defining moments and attitudes that I see as important for myself.

Rafal



-- 
Rafal Smigrodzki, MD-PhD
Senior Scientist,
Gencia Corporation
706 B Forest St.

Charlottesville, VA 22903

tel: (434) 295-4800

fax: (434) 295-4951



This electronic message transmission contains information from the
biotechnology firm of Gencia Corporation which may be confidential or
privileged. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual
or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that
any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this
information is prohibited. If you have received this electronic
transmission in error, please notify us by telephone (434-295-4800) or by
electronic mail (fportell at genciabiotech.com) immediately.
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From stathisp at gmail.com  Fri Apr 10 02:00:11 2015
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2015 12:00:11 +1000
Subject: [ExI] [tt] Identity thread again
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEaQFx==SDwQzu9g=7nitfWrqKV=+=GUSXfi7-+VtgPytw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv2SDM+y9ZnTmTtqw+LdnGX8E2GpLS06SzFcqYyuzG327g@mail.gmail.com>
 <2678587672-25917@secure.ericade.net>
 <CAO+xQEaQFx==SDwQzu9g=7nitfWrqKV=+=GUSXfi7-+VtgPytw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAH=2ypX_3V1ufng=EEcwzaJ8o5k7qXdd52UVE2=pwMVc3rUGQg@mail.gmail.com>

On 10 April 2015 at 07:05, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 2:32 PM, Anders Sandberg <anders at aleph.se> wrote:
>>
>> John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> , 9/4/2015 6:18 PM:
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Apr 8, 2015  William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > Is there now or will there ever be a perfect hard drive/storage device?
>> > No.  Then, no perfect copy.
>>
>>
>> If perfection is required then "you" become a completely different person
>> every time "you" drink a cup of coffee and the entire idea of personal
>> identity, as well as personal pronouns like "you", become meaningless.
>>
>>
>> Bateson said "Information is the difference that makes the difference". A
>> lot of questions about whether two things are the same can only be answered
>> by looking at what makes a difference.
>>
>> Also, thanks to Shannon's work on coding theory, we know that information
>> can be transmitted down noisy channels in ways that result in it having
>> arbitrarily low probability of being distorted. We do not need perfect hard
>> drives to make storage that doesn't lose a single bit over the history of
>> the universe. RAID for the win.
>>
>>
>>
>> Anders Sandberg, Future of Humanity Institute Philosophy Faculty of Oxford
>> University
>
>
> Even Mother Nature doesn't make identical twins genetically identical, and
> it does make a difference, though the idea that drinking a cup of coffee
> makes me an entirely different person is a bit over the top, isn't it?
>
> http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/identical-twins-genes-are-not-identical/
> bill w

You're different from moment to moment and yet you still feel you are
the same person, so any duplicating device would just have to match
the level of fidelity of ordinary life.

-- 
Stathis Papaioannou


From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Apr 10 15:16:41 2015
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2015 10:16:41 -0500
Subject: [ExI] [tt] Identity thread again
In-Reply-To: <CAH=2ypX_3V1ufng=EEcwzaJ8o5k7qXdd52UVE2=pwMVc3rUGQg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv2SDM+y9ZnTmTtqw+LdnGX8E2GpLS06SzFcqYyuzG327g@mail.gmail.com>
 <2678587672-25917@secure.ericade.net>
 <CAO+xQEaQFx==SDwQzu9g=7nitfWrqKV=+=GUSXfi7-+VtgPytw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=2ypX_3V1ufng=EEcwzaJ8o5k7qXdd52UVE2=pwMVc3rUGQg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEboNhXu5n3zFeyneo7vU50vYq87S0o=OBpzEFJ7p8aHng@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 9:00 PM, Stathis Papaioannou <stathisp at gmail.com>
wrote:

> On 10 April 2015 at 07:05, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 2:32 PM, Anders Sandberg <anders at aleph.se> wrote:
> >>
> >> John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> , 9/4/2015 6:18 PM:
> >>
> >>
> >> On Wed, Apr 8, 2015  William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> > Is there now or will there ever be a perfect hard drive/storage
> device?
> >> > No.  Then, no perfect copy.
> >>
> >>
> >> If perfection is required then "you" become a completely different
> person
> >> every time "you" drink a cup of coffee and the entire idea of personal
> >> identity, as well as personal pronouns like "you", become meaningless.
> >>
> >>
> >> Bateson said "Information is the difference that makes the difference".
> A
> >> lot of questions about whether two things are the same can only be
> answered
> >> by looking at what makes a difference.
> >>
> >> Also, thanks to Shannon's work on coding theory, we know that
> information
> >> can be transmitted down noisy channels in ways that result in it having
> >> arbitrarily low probability of being distorted. We do not need perfect
> hard
> >> drives to make storage that doesn't lose a single bit over the history
> of
> >> the universe. RAID for the win.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Anders Sandberg, Future of Humanity Institute Philosophy Faculty of
> Oxford
> >> University
> >
> >
> > Even Mother Nature doesn't make identical twins genetically identical,
> and
> > it does make a difference, though the idea that drinking a cup of coffee
> > makes me an entirely different person is a bit over the top, isn't it?
> >
> >
> http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/identical-twins-genes-are-not-identical/
> > bill w
>
> You're different from moment to moment and yet you still feel you are
> the same person, so any duplicating device would just have to match
> the level of fidelity of ordinary life.
>
> --
> Stathis Papaioannou
>

?I think the idea of 'you can't cross the same river twice' applies here.
Any copy of you is a unique slice of time that will never be completely the
same again.  As for what you feel you are, well, humans are the poorest
judges of themselves, as we have found.  Can you really say that you will
or will not do something until the moment arrives?  Sgt. York - pacifist.
Experiments show that a person is a poor predictor of what they will or
won't do.  So many therapies (not to mention Socrates and others) devote
tons of time to 'getting to know yourself', 'getting in touch with your
inner self' and so on.  And that's not to say that the therapies are
successful in doing those things.  Maybe we are just under the
reinforcement contingencies of the therapist.  We do like people to agree
with us, and so we say and maybe even feel, those things the therapist
urges.  Is that our 'true' self?  Or maybe there isn't one at all.  "I
would never do that" - wrong.  "I wish I'd never done that.  That's just
not like me."  Etc.

Bill W

> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Fri Apr 10 16:46:10 2015
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2015 12:46:10 -0400
Subject: [ExI] [tt] Identity thread again
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEaQFx==SDwQzu9g=7nitfWrqKV=+=GUSXfi7-+VtgPytw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv2SDM+y9ZnTmTtqw+LdnGX8E2GpLS06SzFcqYyuzG327g@mail.gmail.com>
 <2678587672-25917@secure.ericade.net>
 <CAO+xQEaQFx==SDwQzu9g=7nitfWrqKV=+=GUSXfi7-+VtgPytw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv2hVYSG_JoehbT4hK2AUbO=excR54Nr=OyQf8b2Euag-g@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 9, 2015  William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:

> ?Even Mother Nature doesn't make identical twins genetically identical,
>

Genetically they're identical but their phenotype is only similar; two
dishes may not be identical even though they have the same recipe because
at least one of the 2 cooks can not or will not follow the recipe exactly.
And of course after the twins are born their memories are not exactly the
same either,

 > the idea that drinking a cup of coffee makes me an entirely different
> person is a bit over the top, isn't it?
>

Yes that's over the top, but no more so than demanding that copying
machines in thought experiments operate with 100% perfection.

  John K Clark
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Apr 10 17:07:22 2015
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2015 12:07:22 -0500
Subject: [ExI] [tt] Identity thread again
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv2hVYSG_JoehbT4hK2AUbO=excR54Nr=OyQf8b2Euag-g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv2SDM+y9ZnTmTtqw+LdnGX8E2GpLS06SzFcqYyuzG327g@mail.gmail.com>
 <2678587672-25917@secure.ericade.net>
 <CAO+xQEaQFx==SDwQzu9g=7nitfWrqKV=+=GUSXfi7-+VtgPytw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv2hVYSG_JoehbT4hK2AUbO=excR54Nr=OyQf8b2Euag-g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEY0ROYDLyW+tfmk_tYPz5W_PMVivHzTXmBgb8RxMS4Tkw@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 10, 2015 at 11:46 AM, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015  William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > ?Even Mother Nature doesn't make identical twins genetically identical,
>>
>
> Genetically they're identical but their phenotype is only similar; two
> dishes may not be identical even though they have the same recipe because
> at least one of the 2 cooks can not or will not follow the recipe exactly.
> And of course after the twins are born their memories are not exactly the
> same either,
>
>  > the idea that drinking a cup of coffee makes me an entirely different
>> person is a bit over the top, isn't it?
>>
>
> Yes that's over the top, but no more so than demanding that copying
> machines in thought experiments operate with 100% perfection.
>
>   John K Clark
>

?Maybe you did not read this article closely.  Ident. twins are often NOT
genetically identical (the article does not address whether epigenetic
changes to the genes may be responsible for the differences- that would
fall into the 'nurture' category if so):

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/identical-twins-genes-are-not-identical/

Yes, I admit to nit-picking thought experiments, but don't you want to know
why they would not work?  It's one thing to write sci-fi stories and
another to contemplate?

? scenarios that might become real, though sometimes there's no difference.?

The real issue for me, of course, as a psychologist, is the question of
identity/self/ego- what it is and what it isn't.
bill w

>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From atymes at gmail.com  Sun Apr 12 06:05:13 2015
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2015 23:05:13 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Kingsman
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB5xQxX54d2wDvioOTT+PdqHZmyRHmY+J0kvXnV3cJK+QA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB5xQxX54d2wDvioOTT+PdqHZmyRHmY+J0kvXnV3cJK+QA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNRtv99SQegsYb0kNkrZWyEHjSVbciFi+o0puhywiEqSow@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Apr 5, 2015 at 10:23 PM, Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com>
wrote:

> It?s quite strange to have the attitudes of people you were debating
> some 6 years ago define a movie villain.
>

Those who commit evils IRL, never self-identify as the bad guys.  Only
through the eyes of others are they seen as villains, and willful blatantly
evil motives ascribed to them.  (This can make it hard to be sure you are
the hero - but in this case, I assure you, you were.)
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From alfio.puglisi at gmail.com  Mon Apr 13 13:56:20 2015
From: alfio.puglisi at gmail.com (Alfio Puglisi)
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2015 15:56:20 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Planetary Resources' prototype to fly today
Message-ID: <CAJUeD7jXt35h=xAcNy6Ah8uz+nVZS9M9dS6uLgEyBNq2y_OY0A@mail.gmail.com>

Remember Planetary Resources, the company briefly discussed here more than
one year ago, with the (distant) aim of mining asteroids?

Apparently, they have some progress: Arkyd-3, a technology demonstrator for
the Arkyd-100 telescope, is hitching a ride on a Falcon 9:

http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2015/04/spacex-falcon-9-crs-6-dragon-stage-return/

http://space.skyrocket.de/doc_sdat/arkyd-3.htm

A previous Arkyd-3 was lost on a failed Antares launch. Let's hope things
will work better this time.

And don't forget, today's launch is the first decent chance for SpaceX to
land the first stage booster on its slick-looking barge! (see picture
halfway down the first linked page)

Alfio
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From pharos at gmail.com  Tue Apr 14 15:30:53 2015
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2015 16:30:53 +0100
Subject: [ExI] The downsides of high IQ
Message-ID: <CAL_armjFF8MgP=H98VSvxXxJ37U6FxsNdgknHsXWzAG9e1J48g@mail.gmail.com>

The BBC has an article up
<http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20150413-the-downsides-of-being-clever>

(The summary is that high IQ doesn't help much. It is a tool that can
be used for good or bad).

Quotes:
Over the course of their lives, levels of divorce, alcoholism and
suicide were about the same as the national average.
At best, a great intellect makes no differences to your life
satisfaction; at worst, it can actually mean you are less fulfilled.

The harsh truth, however, is that greater intelligence does not equate
to wiser decisions; in fact, in some cases it might make your choices
a little more foolish. Keith Stanovich at the University of Toronto
has spent the last decade building tests for rationality, and he has
found that fair, unbiased decision-making is largely independent of
IQ. Consider the "my-side bias" - our tendency to be highly selective
in the information we collect so that it reinforces our previous
attitudes. The more enlightened approach would be to leave your
assumptions at the door as you build your argument - but Stanovich
found that smarter people are almost no more likely to do so than
people with distinctly average IQs.

That's not all. People who ace standard cognitive tests are in fact
slightly more likely to have a "bias blind spot". That is, they are
less able to see their own flaws, even when though they are quite
capable of criticising the foibles of others. And they have a greater
tendency to fall for the "gambler's fallacy" - the idea that if a
tossed coin turns heads 10 times, it will be more likely to fall tails
on the 11th.

Indeed, Stanovich sees these biases in every strata of society. "There
is plenty of dysrationalia - people doing irrational things despite
more than adequate intelligence - in our world today," he says. "The
people pushing the anti-vaccination meme on parents and spreading
misinformation on websites are generally of more than average
intelligence and education." Clearly, clever people can be
dangerously, and foolishly, misguided.

So if intelligence doesn't lead to rational decisions and a better
life, what does? Igor Grossmann, at the University of Waterloo in
Canada, thinks we need to turn our minds to an age-old concept:
"wisdom".
--------------------------

BillK


From danust2012 at gmail.com  Tue Apr 14 15:55:02 2015
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan)
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2015 08:55:02 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The downsides of high IQ
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armjFF8MgP=H98VSvxXxJ37U6FxsNdgknHsXWzAG9e1J48g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armjFF8MgP=H98VSvxXxJ37U6FxsNdgknHsXWzAG9e1J48g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A761A89C-1805-43CF-8986-138F696C0542@gmail.com>


On Apr 14, 2015, at 8:30 AM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> The BBC has an article up
> <http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20150413-the-downsides-of-being-clever>
> 
> (The summary is that high IQ doesn't help much. It is a tool that can
> be used for good or bad).
> 
> Quotes:
> Over the course of their lives, levels of divorce, alcoholism and
> suicide were about the same as the national average.
> At best, a great intellect makes no differences to your life
> satisfaction; at worst, it can actually mean you are less fulfilled.
> 
> The harsh truth, however, is that greater intelligence does not equate
> to wiser decisions; in fact, in some cases it might make your choices
> a little more foolish. Keith Stanovich at the University of Toronto
> has spent the last decade building tests for rationality, and he has
> found that fair, unbiased decision-making is largely independent of
> IQ. Consider the "my-side bias" - our tendency to be highly selective
> in the information we collect so that it reinforces our previous
> attitudes. The more enlightened approach would be to leave your
> assumptions at the door as you build your argument - but Stanovich
> found that smarter people are almost no more likely to do so than
> people with distinctly average IQs.
> 
> That's not all. People who ace standard cognitive tests are in fact
> slightly more likely to have a "bias blind spot". That is, they are
> less able to see their own flaws, even when though they are quite
> capable of criticising the foibles of others. And they have a greater
> tendency to fall for the "gambler's fallacy" - the idea that if a
> tossed coin turns heads 10 times, it will be more likely to fall tails
> on the 11th.
> 
> Indeed, Stanovich sees these biases in every strata of society. "There
> is plenty of dysrationalia - people doing irrational things despite
> more than adequate intelligence - in our world today," he says. "The
> people pushing the anti-vaccination meme on parents and spreading
> misinformation on websites are generally of more than average
> intelligence and education." Clearly, clever people can be
> dangerously, and foolishly, misguided.
> 
> So if intelligence doesn't lead to rational decisions and a better
> life, what does? Igor Grossmann, at the University of Waterloo in
> Canada, thinks we need to turn our minds to an age-old concept:
> "wisdom".
> --------------------------
> 
> BillK

Seems to fit the old saw that the smarter you are, the better you be at rationalizing things, including your faults and prejudices.

"So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable creature, since it enables one to find or make a reason for everything one has a mind to do." -- Benjamin Franklin

Regards,

Dan
 Sample my Kindle books via:
http://www.amazon.com/Dan-Ust/e/B00J6HPX8M/
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Tue Apr 14 17:54:51 2015
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2015 12:54:51 -0500
Subject: [ExI] The downsides of high IQ
In-Reply-To: <A761A89C-1805-43CF-8986-138F696C0542@gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armjFF8MgP=H98VSvxXxJ37U6FxsNdgknHsXWzAG9e1J48g@mail.gmail.com>
 <A761A89C-1805-43CF-8986-138F696C0542@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYqn+zLZWQaH4N9bHetKAmT_EUEW=LJ+LO2iHAyQx24GA@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 14, 2015 at 10:55 AM, Dan <danust2012 at gmail.com> wrote:

>
> On Apr 14, 2015, at 8:30 AM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> The BBC has an article up
> <http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20150413-the-downsides-of-being-clever>
>
> (The summary is that high IQ doesn't help much. It is a tool that can
> be used for good or bad).
>
> Quotes:
> Over the course of their lives, levels of divorce, alcoholism and
> suicide were about the same as the national average.
> At best, a great intellect makes no differences to your life
> satisfaction; at worst, it can actually mean you are less fulfilled.
>
> The harsh truth, however, is that greater intelligence does not equate
> to wiser decisions; in fact, in some cases it might make your choices
> a little more foolish. Keith Stanovich at the University of Toronto
> has spent the last decade building tests for rationality, and he has
> found that fair, unbiased decision-making is largely independent of
> IQ. Consider the "my-side bias" - our tendency to be highly selective
> in the information we collect so that it reinforces our previous
> attitudes. The more enlightened approach would be to leave your
> assumptions at the door as you build your argument - but Stanovich
> found that smarter people are almost no more likely to do so than
> people with distinctly average IQs.
>
> That's not all. People who ace standard cognitive tests are in fact
> slightly more likely to have a "bias blind spot". That is, they are
> less able to see their own flaws, even when though they are quite
> capable of criticising the foibles of others. And they have a greater
> tendency to fall for the "gambler's fallacy" - the idea that if a
> tossed coin turns heads 10 times, it will be more likely to fall tails
> on the 11th.
>
> Indeed, Stanovich sees these biases in every strata of society. "There
> is plenty of dysrationalia - people doing irrational things despite
> more than adequate intelligence - in our world today," he says. "The
> people pushing the anti-vaccination meme on parents and spreading
> misinformation on websites are generally of more than average
> intelligence and education." Clearly, clever people can be
> dangerously, and foolishly, misguided.
>
> So if intelligence doesn't lead to rational decisions and a better
> life, what does? Igor Grossmann, at the University of Waterloo in
> Canada, thinks we need to turn our minds to an age-old concept:
> "wisdom".
> --------------------------
>
> BillK
>
>
> Seems to fit the old saw that the smarter you are, the better you be at
> rationalizing things, including your faults and prejudices.
>
> "So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable creature, since it enables
> one to find or make a reason for everything one has a mind to do." --
> Benjamin Franklin
>
> Regards,
>
> Dan
>

?Yes, IQ is part of personality and the rest of it matters a great deal.
It makes very good sense to me that high IQ people are resistant to the
idea that they might be wrong, especially when confronted with people of
known lower IQ (i.e, for most of us, nearly everyone else).?  And cognitive
biases know no IQ boundaries.  bill w


>  Sample my Kindle books via:
> http://www.amazon.com/Dan-Ust/e/B00J6HPX8M/
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu  Tue Apr 14 17:47:19 2015
From: hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu (Henry Rivera)
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2015 13:47:19 -0400
Subject: [ExI] The downsides of high IQ
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armjFF8MgP=H98VSvxXxJ37U6FxsNdgknHsXWzAG9e1J48g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armjFF8MgP=H98VSvxXxJ37U6FxsNdgknHsXWzAG9e1J48g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <30FE87E8-9C14-454F-AB7C-968C664AF570@alumni.virginia.edu>


On Apr 14, 2015, at 11:30 AM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> The BBC has an article up
> <http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20150413-the-downsides-of-being-clever>
> 
> (The summary is that high IQ doesn't help much. It is a tool that can
> be used for good or bad).
> 
> Quotes:
> Over the course of their lives, levels of divorce, alcoholism and
> suicide were about the same as the national average.
> At best, a great intellect makes no differences to your life
> satisfaction; at worst, it can actually mean you are less fulfilled.
> 
> The harsh truth, however, is that greater intelligence does not equate
> to wiser decisions; in fact, in some cases it might make your choices
> a little more foolish. Keith Stanovich at the University of Toronto
> has spent the last decade building tests for rationality, and he has
> found that fair, unbiased decision-making is largely independent of
> IQ. Consider the "my-side bias" - our tendency to be highly selective
> in the information we collect so that it reinforces our previous
> attitudes. The more enlightened approach would be to leave your
> assumptions at the door as you build your argument - but Stanovich
> found that smarter people are almost no more likely to do so than
> people with distinctly average IQs.
> 
> That's not all. People who ace standard cognitive tests are in fact
> slightly more likely to have a "bias blind spot". That is, they are
> less able to see their own flaws, even when though they are quite
> capable of criticising the foibles of others. And they have a greater
> tendency to fall for the "gambler's fallacy" - the idea that if a
> tossed coin turns heads 10 times, it will be more likely to fall tails
> on the 11th.
> 
> Indeed, Stanovich sees these biases in every strata of society. "There
> is plenty of dysrationalia - people doing irrational things despite
> more than adequate intelligence - in our world today," he says. "The
> people pushing the anti-vaccination meme on parents and spreading
> misinformation on websites are generally of more than average
> intelligence and education." Clearly, clever people can be
> dangerously, and foolishly, misguided.
> 
> So if intelligence doesn't lead to rational decisions and a better
> life, what does? Igor Grossmann, at the University of Waterloo in
> Canada, thinks we need to turn our minds to an age-old concept:
> "wisdom".
> --------------------------

While the limitations of intelligence in the domains addressed may be true to a degree, intelligence increase remains a worthwhile cause. I suggest that the consequences of a less intelligent populace are far worse than the alternative. Much of the progress in modern life can be attributed to innovation by relatively intelligent folks. Let's not lose perspective. 
-Henry


From spike66 at att.net  Tue Apr 14 21:50:54 2015
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2015 14:50:54 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The downsides of high IQ
In-Reply-To: <30FE87E8-9C14-454F-AB7C-968C664AF570@alumni.virginia.edu>
References: <CAL_armjFF8MgP=H98VSvxXxJ37U6FxsNdgknHsXWzAG9e1J48g@mail.gmail.com>
 <30FE87E8-9C14-454F-AB7C-968C664AF570@alumni.virginia.edu>
Message-ID: <019901d076fd$176e6a60$464b3f20$@att.net>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf
Of Henry Rivera
Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2015 10:47 AM
To: ExI chat list
Subject: Re: [ExI] The downsides of high IQ


On Apr 14, 2015, at 11:30 AM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> The BBC has an article up
> <http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20150413-the-downsides-of-being-cleve
> r>
> 
>>... (The summary is that high IQ doesn't help much. It is a tool that can 
> be used for good or bad).
...
> --------------------------

>...While the limitations of intelligence in the domains addressed may be
true to a degree, intelligence increase remains a worthwhile cause. I
suggest that the consequences of a less intelligent populace are far worse
than the alternative. Much of the progress in modern life can be attributed
to innovation by relatively intelligent folks. Let's not lose perspective.
-Henry
_______________________________________________


Ja.  For those of us who are whatever it is that IQ tests measure (come on,
drop the false modesty, you know I am talking to you) the best thing I have
found is to try to get into a group where you aren't the smartest one in the
room.  If possible, try to arrange a meeting where you are the dumbest.  If
successful, it gives one an entirely new perspective on life.  For me, it
was quite the revelation to discover that I suck.

spike



From pharos at gmail.com  Tue Apr 14 22:49:01 2015
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2015 23:49:01 +0100
Subject: [ExI] The downsides of high IQ
In-Reply-To: <30FE87E8-9C14-454F-AB7C-968C664AF570@alumni.virginia.edu>
References: <CAL_armjFF8MgP=H98VSvxXxJ37U6FxsNdgknHsXWzAG9e1J48g@mail.gmail.com>
 <30FE87E8-9C14-454F-AB7C-968C664AF570@alumni.virginia.edu>
Message-ID: <CAL_armi+d2TaTQrm7jOA-bsDL8QDPJ+d-e9urmot7rvq8shyjg@mail.gmail.com>

On 14 April 2015 at 18:47, Henry Rivera wrote:
> While the limitations of intelligence in the domains addressed may be true
> to a degree, intelligence increase remains a worthwhile cause.
> I suggest that the consequences of a less intelligent populace are far worse
> than the alternative. Much of the progress in modern life can be attributed
> to innovation by relatively intelligent folks. Let's not lose perspective.
>

That's right. But I think the article is saying that many high IQ folk
don't achieve much. And many higher IQ folk cause a lot of trouble.
'Progress' is not always good. All the nasty stuff in modern society
was also produced by higher IQ people.

BillK


From tara at taramayastales.com  Tue Apr 14 22:55:10 2015
From: tara at taramayastales.com (Tara Maya)
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2015 15:55:10 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The downsides of high IQ
In-Reply-To: <A761A89C-1805-43CF-8986-138F696C0542@gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armjFF8MgP=H98VSvxXxJ37U6FxsNdgknHsXWzAG9e1J48g@mail.gmail.com>
 <A761A89C-1805-43CF-8986-138F696C0542@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <EAAFE65F-8F8B-48A8-8B9F-8F1E4795F695@taramayastales.com>

Well, you know the story of the grad student who found a genie. The genie told him, ?I can make you the sexiest man on earth, the wealthiest man on earth or the smartest man on earth. Choose!?

Being a grad student, the grad student said, ?I want to be the smartest man on earth!?

?Alakazam!? said the genie. And it was done.

?Damn,? said the grad student, slapping his palm to his forehead. ?So I SHOULD have gone with the money!"


Tara Maya
Blog <http://taramayastales.blogspot.com/>  |  Twitter <https://twitter.com/taramayastales>  |  Facebook <http://www.facebook.com/pages/The-Unfinished-Song-Epic-Fantasy/310271375658211?ref=hl>  |  Amazon <http://www.amazon.com/Tara-Maya/e/B004HAI038/ref=sr_tc_2_0?qid=1349796143&sr=8-2-ent>  |  Goodreads <http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/2951879.Tara_Maya>



> On Apr 14, 2015, at 8:55 AM, Dan <danust2012 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> 
>> So if intelligence doesn't lead to rational decisions and a better
>> life, what does? Igor Grossmann, at the University of Waterloo in
>> Canada, thinks we need to turn our minds to an age-old concept:
>> "wisdom".
>> --------------------------
>> 
>> BillK
> 
> Seems to fit the old saw that the smarter you are, the better you be at rationalizing things, including your faults and prejudices.
> 
> "So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable creature, since it enables one to find or make a reason for everything one has a mind to do." -- Benjamin Franklin
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Dan
>  Sample my Kindle books via:
> http://www.amazon.com/Dan-Ust/e/B00J6HPX8M/ <http://www.amazon.com/Dan-Ust/e/B00J6HPX8M/>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat <http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat>
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From anders at aleph.se  Wed Apr 15 08:38:35 2015
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2015 10:38:35 +0200
Subject: [ExI] The downsides of high IQ
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armi+d2TaTQrm7jOA-bsDL8QDPJ+d-e9urmot7rvq8shyjg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3157605626-31916@secure.ericade.net>

It is worth noting that some of the quoted results are a bit more problematic than they seem in the article. In particular the bankruptcy claim is based on a paper where the conclusion is actually *wrong*: http://www.aleph.se/andart/archives/2007/04/cubic_terms_make_smart_people_bankrupt.html

But the core claim, intelligence is not enough to guarantee a good life, seems right. It does predict better health, longevity, education, salary, long-term orientation, cooperation and so on, and it does *protect* against accidents, being a homicide victim and unhappiness. But that is obviously not enough on its own: motivation and personality obviously has a huge impact.?


Still, practical wisdom requires intelligence: if you cannot think well, your thinking will be an upper bound on your wisdom and forces you to remain wise about small, concrete things rather than big and important things.?




Anders Sandberg, Future of Humanity Institute Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University
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From tara at taramayastales.com  Wed Apr 15 13:58:26 2015
From: tara at taramayastales.com (Tara Maya)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2015 06:58:26 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The downsides of high IQ
In-Reply-To: <3157605626-31916@secure.ericade.net>
References: <3157605626-31916@secure.ericade.net>
Message-ID: <11E8D2B6-6BE3-41CE-97F0-9AE609E5248E@taramayastales.com>

The other thing that it seems ought to be distinguished are those things that cause intelligent people trouble only because they are surrounded by stupid people, versus those problems that intelligence either makes worse or at least doesn?t improve. 

I compared the article about how Beauty also had its downsides, for instance. Beautiful people have some of the same advantages as smart people, but presumably for different reasons. For instance, both beautiful people and smart people are likely to make more money, but presumably for different reasons. Both beautiful and smart people are likely to suffer from the jealousy of less endowed rivals (for pretty people, more so if they are the same sex).

But there the symmetry ends. Because if you made job hiring/performance a double-blind test, where the employer and coworkers can?t see how beautiful a person is, the jealousy would disappear, but so would the ?beauty advantage.? That?s because it exists ONLY in the perception of other others and ONLY in the comparison between individuals.

If you if you made job hiring/performance a double-blind test, where the employer and coworkers is not allowed to see a person?s IQ, the advantage of a high IQ would still exist. Indeed, it would be hard to hide, if it resulted in consistently better performance. Furthermore, without jealousy of the coworkers, the intelligent person could continue to work just fine, and probably better. In fact, if all their coworkers were also smart, they would do even better.

So for everyone in society to become more intelligent would be a net gain. Intelligence in many respects is its own reward and an overall more intelligent society would benefit everyone.

This is where the limits of intelligence versus ?wisdom" become important. Because I do think the research about cognitive bias, etc., makes clear that even if everyone suddenly gained 20 IQ points across the bell curve, it wouldn?t necessarily prevent society as a whole from making some very stupid mistakes. Or to take a less extreme example, just because voters for one political party are generally smarter that the other (research on Democrats and Republicans seems to indicate this is so) shouldn?t make Democrats feel smugly that this means their policies are always better, since the shared cognitive biases and groupthink endemic to any party are still likely to outweigh the benefits of IQ.

Tara Maya
Blog <http://taramayastales.blogspot.com/>  |  Twitter <https://twitter.com/taramayastales>  |  Facebook <http://www.facebook.com/pages/The-Unfinished-Song-Epic-Fantasy/310271375658211?ref=hl>  |  Amazon <http://www.amazon.com/Tara-Maya/e/B004HAI038/ref=sr_tc_2_0?qid=1349796143&sr=8-2-ent>  |  Goodreads <http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/2951879.Tara_Maya>



> On Apr 15, 2015, at 1:38 AM, Anders Sandberg <anders at aleph.se> wrote:
> 
> It is worth noting that some of the quoted results are a bit more problematic than they seem in the article. In particular the bankruptcy claim is based on a paper where the conclusion is actually *wrong*: http://www.aleph.se/andart/archives/2007/04/cubic_terms_make_smart_people_bankrupt.html
> 
> But the core claim, intelligence is not enough to guarantee a good life, seems right. It does predict better health, longevity, education, salary, long-term orientation, cooperation and so on, and it does *protect* against accidents, being a homicide victim and unhappiness. But that is obviously not enough on its own: motivation and personality obviously has a huge impact. 
> 
> Still, practical wisdom requires intelligence: if you cannot think well, your thinking will be an upper bound on your wisdom and forces you to remain wise about small, concrete things rather than big and important things. 
> 
> 
> 
> Anders Sandberg, Future of Humanity Institute Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

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From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Wed Apr 15 14:23:10 2015
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2015 10:23:10 -0400
Subject: [ExI] The downsides of high IQ
In-Reply-To: <11E8D2B6-6BE3-41CE-97F0-9AE609E5248E@taramayastales.com>
References: <3157605626-31916@secure.ericade.net>
 <11E8D2B6-6BE3-41CE-97F0-9AE609E5248E@taramayastales.com>
Message-ID: <CAAc1gFhhmvsSOa4WhjqtzDv85t5C7K_2jn0-6AVw6xv3Yt1zqg@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 9:58 AM, Tara Maya <tara at taramayastales.com> wrote:


>  Or to take a less extreme example, just because voters for one political
> party are generally smarter that the other (research on Democrats and
> Republicans seems to indicate this is so) shouldn?t make Democrats feel
> smugly that this means their policies are always better, since the shared
> cognitive biases and groupthink endemic to any party are still likely to
> outweigh the benefits of IQ.
>

### This is incorrect. In fact, Republican voters have a slightly higher IQ
than Democratic ones. The difference is tiny - 3.47 points and only on the
verbal scale but still, it does exist.

http://reason.com/archives/2014/06/13/are-conservatives-dumber-than-liberals

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0160289614000373

Rafa?
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Wed Apr 15 15:22:42 2015
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2015 10:22:42 -0500
Subject: [ExI] The downsides of high IQ
In-Reply-To: <CAAc1gFhhmvsSOa4WhjqtzDv85t5C7K_2jn0-6AVw6xv3Yt1zqg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3157605626-31916@secure.ericade.net>
 <11E8D2B6-6BE3-41CE-97F0-9AE609E5248E@taramayastales.com>
 <CAAc1gFhhmvsSOa4WhjqtzDv85t5C7K_2jn0-6AVw6xv3Yt1zqg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYZaGrrz+8Px-bHQcvTxFqnj1tcStE5UYeadB1vch3X+A@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 9:23 AM, Rafal Smigrodzki <
rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 9:58 AM, Tara Maya <tara at taramayastales.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>>  Or to take a less extreme example, just because voters for one political
>> party are generally smarter that the other (research on Democrats and
>> Republicans seems to indicate this is so) shouldn?t make Democrats feel
>> smugly that this means their policies are always better, since the shared
>> cognitive biases and groupthink endemic to any party are still likely to
>> outweigh the benefits of IQ.
>>
>
> ### This is incorrect. In fact, Republican voters have a slightly higher
> IQ than Democratic ones. The difference is tiny - 3.47 points and only on
> the verbal scale but still, it does exist.
>
>
> http://reason.com/archives/2014/06/13/are-conservatives-dumber-than-liberals
>
> http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0160289614000373
>
> Rafa?
>
> ?IF you break it down by state you will find big differences.  Repubs in
MIssissippi are not the same as those in Vermont!!!  bill w?


> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From tara at taramayastales.com  Wed Apr 15 15:37:29 2015
From: tara at taramayastales.com (Tara Maya)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2015 08:37:29 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The downsides of high IQ
In-Reply-To: <CAAc1gFhhmvsSOa4WhjqtzDv85t5C7K_2jn0-6AVw6xv3Yt1zqg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3157605626-31916@secure.ericade.net>
 <11E8D2B6-6BE3-41CE-97F0-9AE609E5248E@taramayastales.com>
 <CAAc1gFhhmvsSOa4WhjqtzDv85t5C7K_2jn0-6AVw6xv3Yt1zqg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <02206D26-7674-44E8-99F8-9F6A7194DA72@taramayastales.com>

Well, then the reverse would be true for Republicans. Higher IQ still would not necessarily translate into better policies. And perhaps it goes for Presidents too. I?ve heard, though I don?t know if it?s true, that Nixon and Carter had among the highest IQs of all Presidents...

Tara Maya
Blog <http://taramayastales.blogspot.com/>  |  Twitter <https://twitter.com/taramayastales>  |  Facebook <http://www.facebook.com/pages/The-Unfinished-Song-Epic-Fantasy/310271375658211?ref=hl>  |  Amazon <http://www.amazon.com/Tara-Maya/e/B004HAI038/ref=sr_tc_2_0?qid=1349796143&sr=8-2-ent>  |  Goodreads <http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/2951879.Tara_Maya>



> On Apr 15, 2015, at 7:23 AM, Rafal Smigrodzki <rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 9:58 AM, Tara Maya <tara at taramayastales.com <mailto:tara at taramayastales.com>> wrote:
>  
>  Or to take a less extreme example, just because voters for one political party are generally smarter that the other (research on Democrats and Republicans seems to indicate this is so) shouldn?t make Democrats feel smugly that this means their policies are always better, since the shared cognitive biases and groupthink endemic to any party are still likely to outweigh the benefits of IQ.
> 
> ### This is incorrect. In fact, Republican voters have a slightly higher IQ than Democratic ones. The difference is tiny - 3.47 points and only on the verbal scale but still, it does exist.
> 
> http://reason.com/archives/2014/06/13/are-conservatives-dumber-than-liberals <http://reason.com/archives/2014/06/13/are-conservatives-dumber-than-liberals>
> 
> http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0160289614000373 <http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0160289614000373>
> 
> Rafa?
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

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From tara at taramayastales.com  Wed Apr 15 15:47:18 2015
From: tara at taramayastales.com (Tara Maya)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2015 08:47:18 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The downsides of high IQ
In-Reply-To: <11E8D2B6-6BE3-41CE-97F0-9AE609E5248E@taramayastales.com>
References: <3157605626-31916@secure.ericade.net>
 <11E8D2B6-6BE3-41CE-97F0-9AE609E5248E@taramayastales.com>
Message-ID: <D5AE4B5E-B6AD-40CA-8C31-6795AE0CC71C@taramayastales.com>

Another point that the article didn?t make but seems important is whether the ?down side? of intelligence is a downside per se, or simply an independent factor. So, to take the beauty example, the stereotype is that beautiful people are dumb and smart people are ugly. But at the same time, we can all think of plenty of exceptions, and there are plenty of ugly stupid people and smart pretty folks. So the two things are independent, probably because to a certain extent, a great deal of one can make up for the lack of the other. But, when humans have the choice, they go for the combination of smart and pretty. 

One could likewise ask if the frequently noted connection between other gifts and deficits are intrinsic or accidental. For instance, artists, even more than other kinds of ?smart people?, have a notable tendency to be depressed, alcoholic, insane, suicidal, etc. Many artists even believe that being depressed or a manic-depressive, is a necessary part of being artistic. That if you were to take away their depression, you?d remove their ability or desire to write/paint/sculpt or what have you. This seems to me to be a pretty important question, because if we could chose genes for artistic temperament for a children, for example, parents would want to make sure this wasn?t at the cost of causing their children to commit suicide at an early age or drink themselves to death. Society might think that it was worth the price to get a few masterpieces, but individuals and their families would probably disagree.


Tara Maya
Blog <http://taramayastales.blogspot.com/>  |  Twitter <https://twitter.com/taramayastales>  |  Facebook <http://www.facebook.com/pages/The-Unfinished-Song-Epic-Fantasy/310271375658211?ref=hl>  |  Amazon <http://www.amazon.com/Tara-Maya/e/B004HAI038/ref=sr_tc_2_0?qid=1349796143&sr=8-2-ent>  |  Goodreads <http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/2951879.Tara_Maya>

>> 
>> Still, practical wisdom requires intelligence: if you cannot think well, your thinking will be an upper bound on your wisdom and forces you to remain wise about small, concrete things rather than big and important things. 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Anders Sandberg, Future of Humanity Institute Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

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From clementlawyer at gmail.com  Wed Apr 15 16:46:21 2015
From: clementlawyer at gmail.com (James Clement)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2015 09:46:21 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The downsides of high IQ
In-Reply-To: <11E8D2B6-6BE3-41CE-97F0-9AE609E5248E@taramayastales.com>
References: <3157605626-31916@secure.ericade.net>
 <11E8D2B6-6BE3-41CE-97F0-9AE609E5248E@taramayastales.com>
Message-ID: <CA+LBAbS_kmO1qQ58x3Dv7USDvcFzGeuFH086D9H=ubp+fbAW_Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 6:58 AM, Tara Maya <tara at taramayastales.com> wrote:

> The other thing that it seems ought to be distinguished are those things
> that cause intelligent people trouble only because they are surrounded by
> stupid people, versus those problems that intelligence either makes worse
> or at least doesn?t improve.
>
> I compared the article about how Beauty also had its downsides, for
> instance. Beautiful people have some of the same advantages as smart
> people, but presumably for different reasons. For instance, both beautiful
> people and smart people are likely to make more money, but presumably for
> different reasons. Both beautiful and smart people are likely to suffer
> from the jealousy of less endowed rivals (for pretty people, more so if
> they are the same sex).
>
> But there the symmetry ends. Because if you made job hiring/performance a
> double-blind test, where the employer and coworkers can?t see how beautiful
> a person is, the jealousy would disappear, but so would the ?beauty
> advantage.? That?s because it exists ONLY in the perception of other others
> and ONLY in the comparison between individuals.
>
> If you if you made job hiring/performance a double-blind test, where the
> employer and coworkers is not allowed to see a person?s IQ, the advantage
> of a high IQ would still exist. Indeed, it would be hard to hide, if it
> resulted in consistently better performance. Furthermore, without jealousy
> of the coworkers, the intelligent person could continue to work just fine,
> and probably better. In fact, if all their coworkers were also smart, they
> would do even better.
>
> So for everyone in society to become more intelligent would be a net gain.
> Intelligence in many respects is its own reward and an overall more
> intelligent society would benefit everyone.
>
> This is where the limits of intelligence versus ?wisdom" become important.
> Because I do think the research about cognitive bias, etc., makes clear
> that even if everyone suddenly gained 20 IQ points across the bell curve,
> it wouldn?t necessarily prevent society as a whole from making some very
> stupid mistakes. Or to take a less extreme example, just because voters for
> one political party are generally smarter that the other (research on
> Democrats and Republicans seems to indicate this is so) shouldn?t make
> Democrats feel smugly that this means their policies are always better,
> since the shared cognitive biases and groupthink endemic to any party are
> still likely to outweigh the benefits of IQ.
>
>
Many organizations select against intelligence, saying that a more
intelligent, experienced, or skilled person would probably only stay in the
job temporarily until something else came along. Several decades ago I
applied for various warehouse-type jobs as an experiment where in some
applications I included and in others excluded my membership in MENSA,
higher education, and job experiences which included running my own
businesses and being a practicing lawyer. I received no interviews for
menial jobs in which I'd listed my actual qualifications. The quickest
positive response I experienced was related to an application where I
simply left almost everything blank, indicating almost no education or
experience.

Here's an article (among many) which describes how many police departments
select against high IQ for their candidates:
http://thefreethoughtproject.com/court-police-departments-refuse-hire-smart/

James
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From spike66 at att.net  Wed Apr 15 16:35:22 2015
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2015 09:35:22 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The downsides of high IQ
In-Reply-To: <11E8D2B6-6BE3-41CE-97F0-9AE609E5248E@taramayastales.com>
References: <3157605626-31916@secure.ericade.net>
 <11E8D2B6-6BE3-41CE-97F0-9AE609E5248E@taramayastales.com>
Message-ID: <018c01d0779a$2e492980$8adb7c80$@att.net>

? Anders commented, regarding the general concept of ??if you?re so smart, why ain?t ya rich??

 

>? But the core claim, intelligence is not enough to guarantee a good life, seems right. It does predict better health, longevity, education, salary, long-term orientation, cooperation and so on, and it does *protect* against accidents, being a homicide victim and unhappiness. But that is obviously not enough on its own: motivation and personality obviously has a huge impact?Anders Sandberg

 

 

Note that brains are cheap.

 

A well-known southern campus minister was known to make comments such as ?Ah don?t see hyaw? any honest prostitute? could possibly myak a livin? awn theeus heah cayampus? with awl these young beautiful college girls? GIVIN it away!?

 

Well hell, think about it.  Consider all the really smart people you know, and if you are one of them good for you.  You like doing brainy things.  You will not only do it for little pay, you will GIVE it away.  Think of all the technical papers that are written, just for the joy of it.  Understatement, you will pay money to give away your ideas.  Not only that, when you call a geek a cheap brain slut, they take it as compliment (because it is.)  They form a CBS club and egg each other on, shamelessly performing unprotected multiple serial brain-copulation, riotous brain-orgies and such (example: ExtroCons.)

 

Look over to Andart for a poster-child example.  All those cool ideas; the man doesn?t even ask for anything in return.  Brain-whores just give it away!  How can idea-purveyors compete with that?

 

In our modern world, brains are cheap, and a lot of it is my favorite pricetag: free.  

 

Oh what a glorious time to be living.  We higher primates evolved these bulbous frontal lobes for exactly this era.  Give it away until you are sore, then give more.

 

spike

 

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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Wed Apr 15 16:56:48 2015
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2015 12:56:48 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Life simulating life
Message-ID: <CAJPayv3+2ei6fhq+eS7_TUJygvMxGvxLWcSjyqT+xXCzaQmSRA@mail.gmail.com>

Here is a very cool short video showing Conway's Game Of Life simulating
Conway's Game Of Life:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xP5-iIeKXE8

 John K Clark
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From spike66 at att.net  Wed Apr 15 16:51:11 2015
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2015 09:51:11 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The downsides of high IQ
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYZaGrrz+8Px-bHQcvTxFqnj1tcStE5UYeadB1vch3X+A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3157605626-31916@secure.ericade.net>
 <11E8D2B6-6BE3-41CE-97F0-9AE609E5248E@taramayastales.com>
 <CAAc1gFhhmvsSOa4WhjqtzDv85t5C7K_2jn0-6AVw6xv3Yt1zqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYZaGrrz+8Px-bHQcvTxFqnj1tcStE5UYeadB1vch3X+A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <01b501d0779c$643a72e0$2caf58a0$@att.net>

 

>>?

 

### This is incorrect. In fact, Republican voters have a slightly higher IQ than Democratic ones. The difference is tiny - 3.47 points and only on the verbal scale but still, it does exist.

 

http://reason.com/archives/2014/06/13/are-conservatives-dumber-than-liberals

 

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0160289614000373

 

Rafa?

 

?>?IF you break it down by state you will find big differences.  Repubs in MIssissippi are not the same as those in Vermont!!!  bill w?

 

 

It depends on the nature of the test.  Thought experiment.  Get a group of Americans, divide them into Republican and Democrat, give them a test on the US Constitution.  Who do you suppose wins that contest?  Now give them a test on the human reproductive system, birth control, etc.  Who wins that round?  {8^]

 

Cool we aughta try that.

 

spike

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From clementlawyer at gmail.com  Wed Apr 15 17:07:43 2015
From: clementlawyer at gmail.com (James Clement)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2015 10:07:43 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The downsides of high IQ
In-Reply-To: <018c01d0779a$2e492980$8adb7c80$@att.net>
References: <3157605626-31916@secure.ericade.net>
 <11E8D2B6-6BE3-41CE-97F0-9AE609E5248E@taramayastales.com>
 <018c01d0779a$2e492980$8adb7c80$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CA+LBAbTzRKU+B0j5naX-cCX3c16_EUW0we2Wx6sHNRRKw-_9LQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 9:35 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

> Look over to Andart for a poster-child example.  All those cool ideas; the
> man doesn?t even ask for anything in return.  Brain-whores just give it
> away!  How can idea-purveyors compete with that?
>
> In our modern world, brains are cheap, and a lot of it is my favorite
> pricetag: free.
>
> Oh what a glorious time to be living.  We higher primates evolved these
> bulbous frontal lobes for exactly this era.  Give it away until you are
> sore, then give more.
>
>
>

I like to think that we're all earning Whuffies:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whuffie

James
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Wed Apr 15 17:15:52 2015
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2015 12:15:52 -0500
Subject: [ExI] The downsides of high IQ
In-Reply-To: <018c01d0779a$2e492980$8adb7c80$@att.net>
References: <3157605626-31916@secure.ericade.net>
 <11E8D2B6-6BE3-41CE-97F0-9AE609E5248E@taramayastales.com>
 <018c01d0779a$2e492980$8adb7c80$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYb=gGtdynq9=k9d_0Xyg9E3FoeNZTYgXN5yrijepDFfQ@mail.gmail.com>

The quickest positive response I experienced was related to an application
where I simply left almost everything blank, indicating almost no education
or experience.

Two points:  there is a positive correlation between IQ and manic
depression, definitely a hindrance to success.  Most companies know that
there is a high turnover rate with above average IQ people in lower level
jobs.  bill w

On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 11:35 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

> ? Anders commented, regarding the general concept of ??if you?re so smart,
> why ain?t ya rich??
>
>
>
> >? But the core claim, intelligence is not enough to guarantee a good
> life, seems right. It does predict better health, longevity, education,
> salary, long-term orientation, cooperation and so on, and it does *protect*
> against accidents, being a homicide victim and unhappiness. But that is
> obviously not enough on its own: motivation and personality obviously has a
> huge impact?Anders Sandberg
>
>
>
>
>
> Note that brains are cheap.
>
>
>
> A well-known southern campus minister was known to make comments such as
> ?Ah don?t see hyaw? any honest prostitute? could possibly myak a livin? awn
> theeus heah cayampus? with awl these young beautiful college girls? GIVIN
> it away!?
>
>
>
> Well hell, think about it.  Consider all the really smart people you know,
> and if you are one of them good for you.  You like doing brainy things.
> You will not only do it for little pay, you will GIVE it away.  Think of
> all the technical papers that are written, just for the joy of it.
> Understatement, you will pay money to give away your ideas.  Not only that,
> when you call a geek a cheap brain slut, they take it as compliment
> (because it is.)  They form a CBS club and egg each other on, shamelessly
> performing unprotected multiple serial brain-copulation, riotous
> brain-orgies and such (example: ExtroCons.)
>
>
>
> Look over to Andart for a poster-child example.  All those cool ideas; the
> man doesn?t even ask for anything in return.  Brain-whores just give it
> away!  How can idea-purveyors compete with that?
>
>
>
> In our modern world, brains are cheap, and a lot of it is my favorite
> pricetag: free.
>
>
>
> Oh what a glorious time to be living.  We higher primates evolved these
> bulbous frontal lobes for exactly this era.  Give it away until you are
> sore, then give more.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From spike66 at att.net  Wed Apr 15 17:23:06 2015
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2015 10:23:06 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The downsides of high IQ
In-Reply-To: <CA+LBAbTzRKU+B0j5naX-cCX3c16_EUW0we2Wx6sHNRRKw-_9LQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3157605626-31916@secure.ericade.net>
 <11E8D2B6-6BE3-41CE-97F0-9AE609E5248E@taramayastales.com>
 <018c01d0779a$2e492980$8adb7c80$@att.net>
 <CA+LBAbTzRKU+B0j5naX-cCX3c16_EUW0we2Wx6sHNRRKw-_9LQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <025c01d077a0$d9183760$8b48a620$@att.net>

 

 

From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of James Clement
?

>>?Oh what a glorious time to be living.  We higher primates evolved these bulbous frontal lobes for exactly this era.  Give it away until you are sore, then give more.

 >?I like to think that we're all earning Whuffies: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whuffie James

 

Excellent thanks James.  I like to think that in our modern era, high-whuffie people have nearly zero risk of starvation or homelessness.  Imagine your favorite high-whuffie; everywhere he goes, some local will feed him and let him crash in their guest room as long as he wants to occupy it; they will be happy to have him.

I may be imagining it, but I don?t think so.  Now is the best of times to be destitute compared to the lot of the destitute elsewhere and elsewhen.  Starvation is mostly off the table already.  Consider the local will-work-for-fooders, holding their signs with one short phrase, which is false.  As a group, surely many of them are homeless, but they don?t look terribly underfed to me.  They aren?t as skinny as? um? I am.  So they may be destitute, but they are not starving.  

I have seen WWFFs pulling cell phones out of their pockets.  I have seen WWFFs pop the trunk of their car with a remote, toss the sign in, drive away.  We occasionally see an actual urban camper, a genuine homeless person.  If you know where to look they can be found.  There are hiding places everywhere in a typical city.  Yet if you go around on foot and scout out the urban campgrounds, it soon becomes clear that there are a lot more WWFFs than there are actual homeless people, by a factor of 4 I would estimate.

My point: we are part of the way, or perhaps most of the way to James? whuffie site goal, a time and place where the bare necessities of life are there even for the destitute.

In our modern world, it doesn?t have to suck to be poor.

spike

 

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From spike66 at att.net  Wed Apr 15 17:29:12 2015
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2015 10:29:12 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The downsides of high IQ
In-Reply-To: <D5AE4B5E-B6AD-40CA-8C31-6795AE0CC71C@taramayastales.com>
References: <3157605626-31916@secure.ericade.net>
 <11E8D2B6-6BE3-41CE-97F0-9AE609E5248E@taramayastales.com>
 <D5AE4B5E-B6AD-40CA-8C31-6795AE0CC71C@taramayastales.com>
Message-ID: <026101d077a1$b2c8abc0$185a0340$@att.net>

 

 

From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Tara Maya
Subject: Re: [ExI] The downsides of high IQ

 

>? So, to take the beauty example, the stereotype is that beautiful people are dumb and smart people are ugly?

 

Well, not really.  We just dress that way.

 

>? Many artists even believe that being depressed or a manic-depressive, is a necessary part of being artistic. 

 

Ja, perhaps so, very plausible Tara.

 

>?That if you were to take away their depression, you?d remove their ability or desire to write/paint/sculpt?

Tara Maya

 

Art is the creative mind?s beautiful way of shrieking in pain.

 

spike

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From spike66 at att.net  Wed Apr 15 17:36:05 2015
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2015 10:36:05 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Life simulating life
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv3+2ei6fhq+eS7_TUJygvMxGvxLWcSjyqT+xXCzaQmSRA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv3+2ei6fhq+eS7_TUJygvMxGvxLWcSjyqT+xXCzaQmSRA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <026601d077a2$a8f9e0e0$faeda2a0$@att.net>

 

 

>? On Behalf Of John Clark
Subject: [ExI] Life simulating life

 

>?Here is a very cool short video showing Conway's Game Of Life simulating Conway's Game Of Life: 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xP5-iIeKXE8

 

 John K Clark

 

 

Thanks John, that is most epic-cool thing I have seen in a long time.  That top video in Up Next regarding sorting is very educational, and a perfect example of what I was yakkity yakking about earlier today: a wicked cool idea someone just tossed to the hungry masses below.

 

spike

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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From tara at taramayastales.com  Wed Apr 15 18:50:56 2015
From: tara at taramayastales.com (Tara Maya)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2015 11:50:56 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The downsides of high IQ
In-Reply-To: <CA+LBAbS_kmO1qQ58x3Dv7USDvcFzGeuFH086D9H=ubp+fbAW_Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3157605626-31916@secure.ericade.net>
 <11E8D2B6-6BE3-41CE-97F0-9AE609E5248E@taramayastales.com>
 <CA+LBAbS_kmO1qQ58x3Dv7USDvcFzGeuFH086D9H=ubp+fbAW_Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <25FCAFDC-2E17-4E3C-A6F5-DF43F71BA0C1@taramayastales.com>


Before I was able to support myself as a writer, I took a lot of temp jobs. Rather than do office work, I took a two-week class and earned a Fork Lifting License. It paid the same (sometimes better) than entry-level clerical work, was a lot of fun, and left me plenty of time to think about plotlines as I worked, since shifting boxes doesn?t require a lot of mental power. (Secretarial work, although excruciatingly dull, requires just enough thought to make other mental activity difficult.)

On one job, I made the mistake of mentioning my college degree to my employer. I was fired the next day.

Tara Maya
Blog <http://taramayastales.blogspot.com/>  |  Twitter <https://twitter.com/taramayastales>  |  Facebook <http://www.facebook.com/pages/The-Unfinished-Song-Epic-Fantasy/310271375658211?ref=hl>  |  Amazon <http://www.amazon.com/Tara-Maya/e/B004HAI038/ref=sr_tc_2_0?qid=1349796143&sr=8-2-ent>  |  Goodreads <http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/2951879.Tara_Maya>



> On Apr 15, 2015, at 9:46 AM, James Clement <clementlawyer at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Many organizations select against intelligence, saying that a more intelligent, experienced, or skilled person would probably only stay in the job temporarily until something else came along. Several decades ago I applied for various warehouse-type jobs as an experiment where in some applications I included and in others excluded my membership in MENSA, higher education, and job experiences which included running my own businesses and being a practicing lawyer. I received no interviews for menial jobs in which I'd listed my actual qualifications. The quickest positive response I experienced was related to an application where I simply left almost everything blank, indicating almost no education or experience.  
> 
> Here's an article (among many) which describes how many police departments select against high IQ for their candidates: http://thefreethoughtproject.com/court-police-departments-refuse-hire-smart/ <http://thefreethoughtproject.com/court-police-departments-refuse-hire-smart/>
> 
> James 
> 

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From giulio at gmail.com  Thu Apr 16 07:07:18 2015
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2015 09:07:18 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Press Release: A New State Has Been Declared - Liberland
Message-ID: <CAKTCJyev-kBdyQFzTpJAs8ybNFg5HruHOCkrZwAtb21Ojowf4A@mail.gmail.com>

This is super cool. I guess what will happen is that the powers that
be will crush the initiative in no time and persuade Serbia or Croatia
to claim the territory. But I will follow the project with very keen
interest and I hope it will survive.

Press Release: A New State Has Been Declared - Liberland
http://liberland.org/en/news/press-release-a-new-state-has-been-declared-liberland-21.htm


From pharos at gmail.com  Thu Apr 16 09:29:16 2015
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2015 10:29:16 +0100
Subject: [ExI] The downsides of high IQ
In-Reply-To: <3157605626-31916@secure.ericade.net>
References: <CAL_armi+d2TaTQrm7jOA-bsDL8QDPJ+d-e9urmot7rvq8shyjg@mail.gmail.com>
 <3157605626-31916@secure.ericade.net>
Message-ID: <CAL_armgdOmxgmPTHJYsjkx_J3fETijE5XB_ECDx_MbSpwdGJ2Q@mail.gmail.com>

On 15 April 2015 at 09:38, Anders Sandberg  wrote:
> But the core claim, intelligence is not enough to guarantee a good life,
> seems right. It does predict better health, longevity, education, salary,
> long-term orientation, cooperation and so on, and it does *protect* against
> accidents, being a homicide victim and unhappiness. But that is obviously
> not enough on its own: motivation and personality obviously has a huge
> impact.
>
> Still, practical wisdom requires intelligence: if you cannot think well,
> your thinking will be an upper bound on your wisdom and forces you to remain
> wise about small, concrete things rather than big and important things.
>

As with most social science stats, the links can be complex.

Some of the benefits of higher intelligence seem linked to better education.
Re:better health, well-educated people have the knowledge to avoid
smoking and to have a reasonable diet. This gives better health and
adds years to their life.

Re happiness, higher intelligence seems to make people worry more.
Perhaps they see possible problems where others don't. They also seem
to have the unsatisfied feeling that they should be doing something
more with their life.

Re wisdom, the article is hopeful that wisdom can be taught - by
visualising problems as though they applied to someone else (and
setting aside your own personal biases). It is a well-known meme that
very intelligent people often lack common-sense (or down-to earth
wisdom). When they are heavily into devising some complex plan it is
useful to have someone around who can provide a reality check. (Often
known as 'wife').

BillK


From anders at aleph.se  Thu Apr 16 09:48:09 2015
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2015 11:48:09 +0200
Subject: [ExI] The downsides of high IQ
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armgdOmxgmPTHJYsjkx_J3fETijE5XB_ECDx_MbSpwdGJ2Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3248032819-14901@secure.ericade.net>


BillK <pharos at gmail.com> , 16/4/2015 11:36 AM:
Some of the benefits of higher intelligence seem linked to better education. 
Re:better health, well-educated people have the knowledge to avoid 
smoking and to have a reasonable diet. This gives better health and 
adds years to their life. 


Yes, but even when you control for education (like in the Scottish Schoolchildren Study) intelligence has a health effect. There can of course be complex causation going other ways too: maybe a good genetic endowment is good for both intelligence and health, and being healthy is definitely good for the brain. But education is not the sole causal link.



Re happiness, higher intelligence seems to make people worry more. 
Perhaps they see possible problems where others don't. They also seem 
to have the unsatisfied feeling that they should be doing something 
more with their life. 


I think this is a "first world problem": smart people express their worries, experience impostor syndrome more acutely since they often are more successful, and often have more interesting and abstract worries than less smart people. When you look at actual life satisfaction statistics it is very clear that dumb people have a harsh time - they might not know why their lives suck, but they sure feel it.?



Re wisdom, the article is hopeful that wisdom can be taught - by 
visualising problems as though they applied to someone else (and 
setting aside your own personal biases).


Yes, it is helpful. But we need more methods and more teaching of them. I have found roleplaying games useful for putting myself into somebody else's shoes, as well as improvising scenarios that allow me to guess at consequences. But reading enough cognitive bias literature and seeing stupid smart people has taught me something even more valuable: to assume I am overconfident in my knowledge and ability until I get good evidence to the contrary. Being too certain is very risky.



When they are heavily into devising some complex plan it is 
useful to have someone around who can provide a reality check. (Often 
known as 'wife'). 


Yup. Many eyes makes bugs shallow. And having two or more different perspectives on problem solving is very helpful.



Anders Sandberg, Future of Humanity Institute Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University
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From anders at aleph.se  Thu Apr 16 10:06:14 2015
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2015 12:06:14 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Life simulating life
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv3+2ei6fhq+eS7_TUJygvMxGvxLWcSjyqT+xXCzaQmSRA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3248964618-13172@secure.ericade.net>


John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> , 15/4/2015 7:01 PM:


Here is a very cool short video showing Conway's Game Of Life simulating Conway's Game Of Life:?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xP5-iIeKXE8




It is beautiful.?


At the same time, it is intriguing to see how non-Life the pattern looks. This is nothing that would ever evolve naturally given the normal behaviour of the Life universe. It might be that one could set up an even more amazing synthesis pattern that actually builds these machines (once upon a time the glider gun was the only known constructor, and over time we have learned how to use them and their descendants to build ever more advanced constructors), but that would itself almost certainly be rather non-lifeish. Maybe it is possible to get a "natural" simulator in Life, but it seems very unlikely.


This ties in to a part of a paper I am working on right now, related to a peculiar physics risk. We humans create conditions that likely have never ever occurred before in the universe (unless some aliens beat us to it). For example, there is a good chance Einstein-Bose condensates did not occur until 1995. And while fission chain reactions can happen naturally (the Oklo reactor), fission nuclear explosions likely never happen. Both of these things are allowed by the laws of physics, but it takes intelligent beings to figure out that they could happen and then arrange things so exceedingly odd conditions occur (like optical crystals of laser light with monoatomic gases cooled by laser cooling, or implosion assemblies of enriched isotopes surrounded by high explosives controlled by well-timed signals). Intelligence hence allows the dynamics of the universe to make sudden jumps pretty far outside the envelope of what is normally going on.

The *truly* amazing thing is that we think intelligence itself is part of the *normal* dynamics. Just biological signal processing and adaptation taken far. If we can amplify intelligence and move it outside the envelope, it can likely achieve truly transcendent things.?


Anders Sandberg, Future of Humanity Institute Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University
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From anders at aleph.se  Thu Apr 16 10:13:46 2015
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2015 12:13:46 +0200
Subject: [ExI] The downsides of high IQ
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYb=gGtdynq9=k9d_0Xyg9E3FoeNZTYgXN5yrijepDFfQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3249706424-14901@secure.ericade.net>


William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com> , 15/4/2015 7:18 PM:

Two points:? there is a positive correlation between IQ and manic depression, definitely a hindrance to success.? Most companies know that there is a high turnover rate with above average IQ people in lower level jobs.?


But manic depression is a minority problem even among high IQ people.?


The real issue for companies is simply that smart people have way more options, so a higher turnover should be expected if there are potentially better jobs. And smart people also have a larger range of goals: good pay is no guarantee that it is optimal for them. The first philosophy PhD I met worked with me in the post office. Smart people can often find fulfilment in idiosyncratic places. But as an employer, figuring out whether the double doctorate would-be street cleaner would love the job or not before the fact is hard, and in many cases carries a cost.?


In many ways saying smart people have problems is like complaining that any other advantaged group has problems: sure, there are both universal problems they cannot escape, and special problems that group has. The real question is whether the special problems actually outweigh the advantage. Which I think we all more or less agree is not the case for intelligence.?



Anders Sandberg, Future of Humanity Institute Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University
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From anders at aleph.se  Thu Apr 16 10:26:15 2015
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2015 12:26:15 +0200
Subject: [ExI] The downsides of high IQ
In-Reply-To: <018c01d0779a$2e492980$8adb7c80$@att.net>
Message-ID: <3250150557-14901@secure.ericade.net>


spike <spike66 at att.net> , 15/4/2015 6:58 PM:


Look over to Andart for a poster-child example.? All those cool ideas; the man doesn?t even ask for anything in return.? Brain-whores just give it away!? How can idea-purveyors compete with that?


At first I was planning to point out that I am a brain-slut, since I don't get paid for giving away ideas, but then I realized that I do have a paycheck from the university, so I *am* a brain-whore. And quite proud of it. It is just that I also like to give away freebies.?






?In our modern world, brains are cheap, and a lot of it is my favorite pricetag: free.?Oh what a glorious time to be living.? We higher primates evolved these bulbous frontal lobes for exactly this era.? Give it away until you are sore, then give more.

Amen. One of the interesting things with this era is that we have the technology to make this giving and sharing more efficient. People were certainly giving away nice ideas in the coffee houses of the 1600s, but just a few could print, spread or read the pamphlets. Today we have technology for taking all brain-output and spread it around, as well as some rudimentary ways of sorting it (very necessary, since a lot of the gifts are honestly a bit dodgy).?







We professional brain-whores of course have a problem here. How do we compete? The main approach is quality control (and sometimes just status): writing peer reviewed papers in good journals with authors from prestigious universities is a bit like trying to be an upscale?demimondaine. But there is also the wonderful power of specialization (you know more than anybody about X) and intellectual craft/connoisseurship (you can detect and put together good thoughts about X) that synergize with the flood of free brains and ideas. There is value in professionally refining ideas and pointing out which ones shine the brightest.?


Anders Sandberg, Future of Humanity Institute Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University
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From rex at nosyntax.net  Thu Apr 16 11:25:41 2015
From: rex at nosyntax.net (rex)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2015 04:25:41 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The downsides of high IQ
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armjFF8MgP=H98VSvxXxJ37U6FxsNdgknHsXWzAG9e1J48g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armjFF8MgP=H98VSvxXxJ37U6FxsNdgknHsXWzAG9e1J48g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20150416112541.GA29006@nosyntax.net>

BillK <pharos at gmail.com> [2015-04-14 08:32]:
>The BBC has an article up
><http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20150413-the-downsides-of-being-clever>
>
>(The summary is that high IQ doesn't help much. It is a tool that can
>be used for good or bad).

Group social outcomes are very sensitive to IQ. The graphic at the URL
below shows dramatic differences in various social outcomes associated with
three-point IQ changes.

http://www.nosyntax.net/cfwiki/index.php/IQ_Prediction_and_Society

Who would guess that a "mere" 3-point IQ boost is associated with about
a 30% lower number of high school dropouts, or that a 3-point decline is
associated with about a 15% increase in the number of men prevented from
working by health problems?

-rex
-- 
"Experience teaches us no less clearly than reason, that men believe
themselves free, simply because they are conscious of their actions,
and unconscious of the causes whereby those actions are determined."
   --B de Spinoza



From foozler83 at gmail.com  Thu Apr 16 14:29:17 2015
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2015 09:29:17 -0500
Subject: [ExI] The downsides of high IQ
In-Reply-To: <20150416112541.GA29006@nosyntax.net>
References: <CAL_armjFF8MgP=H98VSvxXxJ37U6FxsNdgknHsXWzAG9e1J48g@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150416112541.GA29006@nosyntax.net>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYks3hvvC4OyUgQ+ki=s-QccKKapWT1ZhUa+7A8dO4ghw@mail.gmail.com>

Don't bet the house on any three point difference in IQ.  It is well within
the range of error.  In fact, if retested, the percentage of people whose
scores would change by more than three points is very high.  The standard
error of measurement for the Weschler IQ test is about three.  However,
that is an average.  In fact, as the score departs more and more from 100
the error gets greater and greater.

Three IQ points is trivial and is likely not to be the cause of anything
other than test unreliability. Bill W

On Thu, Apr 16, 2015 at 6:25 AM, rex <rex at nosyntax.net> wrote:

> BillK <pharos at gmail.com> [2015-04-14 08:32]:
>
>> The BBC has an article up
>> <http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20150413-the-downsides-of-being-clever>
>>
>> (The summary is that high IQ doesn't help much. It is a tool that can
>> be used for good or bad).
>>
>
> Group social outcomes are very sensitive to IQ. The graphic at the URL
> below shows dramatic differences in various social outcomes associated with
> three-point IQ changes.
>
> http://www.nosyntax.net/cfwiki/index.php/IQ_Prediction_and_Society
>
> Who would guess that a "mere" 3-point IQ boost is associated with about
> a 30% lower number of high school dropouts, or that a 3-point decline is
> associated with about a 15% increase in the number of men prevented from
> working by health problems?
>
> -rex
> --
> "Experience teaches us no less clearly than reason, that men believe
> themselves free, simply because they are conscious of their actions,
> and unconscious of the causes whereby those actions are determined."
>   --B de Spinoza
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From anders at aleph.se  Thu Apr 16 15:38:43 2015
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2015 17:38:43 +0200
Subject: [ExI] The downsides of high IQ
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYks3hvvC4OyUgQ+ki=s-QccKKapWT1ZhUa+7A8dO4ghw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3269084338-5702@secure.ericade.net>


William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com> , 16/4/2015 4:38 PM:

Don't bet the house on any three point difference in IQ.? It is well within the range of error.? In fact, if retested, the percentage of people whose scores would change by more than three points is very high.? The standard error of measurement for the Weschler IQ test is about three.? However, that is an average.? In fact, as the score departs more and more from 100 the error gets greater and greater.


Three IQ points is trivial and is likely not to be the cause of anything other than test unreliability. Bill W




You are missing the point. Individual IQ may not be that sharply defined, but that link talked about a population mean.?


The bigger problem with the claim that a 3% increase has a huge effect is simply that extrapolating linearly far from the current mean will not work. Obviously a 10 point increase will not reduce high school drop-outs to zero: the numbers just give a bit of evidence of the sensitivity. Except that untangling causation is *tough*: these are domains where feedbacks go both ways, especially when analysing "national IQs".?


But I think nearly all of the scientific literature supports that if something could give on average a few extra IQ points it would have a measurable positive effect. Not necessarily earth-shattering, but still significant. And the tail effects are fascinating: a small boost would increase the number of 140+ geniuses enormously, with high variance effects depending on what they do.?


Anders Sandberg, Future of Humanity Institute Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University







On Thu, Apr 16, 2015 at 6:25 AM, rex <rex at nosyntax.net> wrote:
BillK <pharos at gmail.com> [2015-04-14 08:32]:
  The BBC has an article up
 <http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20150413-the-downsides-of-being-clever>
 
 (The summary is that high IQ doesn't help much. It is a tool that can
 be used for good or bad).
  
 Group social outcomes are very sensitive to IQ. The graphic at the URL
 below shows dramatic differences in various social outcomes associated with
 three-point IQ changes.
 
 http://www.nosyntax.net/cfwiki/index.php/IQ_Prediction_and_Society
 
 Who would guess that a "mere" 3-point IQ boost is associated with about
 a 30% lower number of high school dropouts, or that a 3-point decline is
 associated with about a 15% increase in the number of men prevented from
 working by health problems?
 
 -rex
 -- 
 "Experience teaches us no less clearly than reason, that men believe
 themselves free, simply because they are conscious of their actions,
 and unconscious of the causes whereby those actions are determined."
 ? --B de Spinoza


 
 _______________________________________________
 extropy-chat mailing list
 extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
 http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
 
 

_______________________________________________ 
extropy-chat mailing list 
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org 
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat 
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Thu Apr 16 16:24:30 2015
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2015 11:24:30 -0500
Subject: [ExI] The downsides of high IQ
In-Reply-To: <3269084338-5702@secure.ericade.net>
References: <CAO+xQEYks3hvvC4OyUgQ+ki=s-QccKKapWT1ZhUa+7A8dO4ghw@mail.gmail.com>
 <3269084338-5702@secure.ericade.net>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZePmDn0-SFc_vy5z3CRMi5b2mtC7YMN3AjZEME8DHWvA@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 16, 2015 at 10:38 AM, Anders Sandberg <anders at aleph.se> wrote:

> William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com> , 16/4/2015 4:38 PM:
>
> Don't bet the house on any three point difference in IQ.  It is well
> within the range of error.  In fact, if retested, the percentage of people
> whose scores would change by more than three points is very high.  The
> standard error of measurement for the Weschler IQ test is about three.
> However, that is an average.  In fact, as the score departs more and more
> from 100 the error gets greater and greater.
>
> Three IQ points is trivial and is likely not to be the cause of anything
> other than test unreliability. Bill W
>
>
>
> You are missing the point. Individual IQ may not be that sharply defined,
> but that link talked about a population mean.
>
> The bigger problem with the claim that a 3% increase has a huge effect is
> simply that extrapolating linearly far from the current mean will not work.
> Obviously a 10 point increase will not reduce high school drop-outs to
> zero: the numbers just give a bit of evidence of the sensitivity. Except
> that untangling causation is *tough*: these are domains where feedbacks go
> both ways, especially when analysing "national IQs".
>
> But I think nearly all of the scientific literature supports that if
> something could give on average a few extra IQ points it would have a
> measurable positive effect. Not necessarily earth-shattering, but still
> significant. And the tail effects are fascinating: a small boost would
> increase the number of 140+ geniuses enormously, with high variance effects
> depending on what they do.
>
>
> Anders Sandberg, Future of Humanity Institute Philosophy Faculty of Oxford
> University
>
> ?I did miss the point.  Mea culpa.  Still, three points isn't going to
change much unless the standards don't change along with them.
Historically, if things (IQ or whatever) get better and better, standards
and expectations rise along with them, creating no real difference, except
in an absolute sense.?

?  If we added 100 points to the general population IQ?, the the lowest
standard would not be ability to read but to do equations in your head, or
something like.  I wonder what that society would be like.  I'd be
considered retarded.

>
> ?bill w?
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
>
>
> ___________________
>
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-cha
> <http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat>
>
>
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From atymes at gmail.com  Thu Apr 16 17:56:04 2015
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2015 10:56:04 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Press Release: A New State Has Been Declared - Liberland
In-Reply-To: <CAKTCJyev-kBdyQFzTpJAs8ybNFg5HruHOCkrZwAtb21Ojowf4A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKTCJyev-kBdyQFzTpJAs8ybNFg5HruHOCkrZwAtb21Ojowf4A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNR5tsSNfWSSrg-aj6vvy629yQrzTyfTQ0+oknZA7fwptA@mail.gmail.com>

On Apr 16, 2015 12:08 AM, "Giulio Prisco" <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:
> This is super cool. I guess what will happen is that the powers that
> be will crush the initiative in no time and persuade Serbia or Croatia
> to claim the territory.

Agreed.  To found a new nation you need at least 10,000 people, maybe at
least 100,000.  Doing it if you don't even have 100 gets you ignored at
first, then crushed.  By the looks of it, these guys - like most attempts,
sadly - might not even have 10.
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From rex at nosyntax.net  Thu Apr 16 20:04:30 2015
From: rex at nosyntax.net (rex)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2015 13:04:30 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The downsides of high IQ
In-Reply-To: <3269084338-5702@secure.ericade.net>
References: <CAO+xQEYks3hvvC4OyUgQ+ki=s-QccKKapWT1ZhUa+7A8dO4ghw@mail.gmail.com>
 <3269084338-5702@secure.ericade.net>
Message-ID: <20150416200429.GA2118@nosyntax.net>

Anders Sandberg <anders at aleph.se> [2015-04-16 08:41]:
>   William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com> , 16/4/2015 4:38 PM:
>
>     Don't bet the house on any three point difference in IQ.? It is well
>     within the range of error.? In fact, if retested, the percentage of
>     people whose scores would change by more than three points is very
>     high.? The standard error of measurement for the Weschler IQ test is
>     about three.? However, that is an average.? In fact, as the score
>     departs more and more from 100 the error gets greater and greater.
>
>     Three IQ points is trivial and is likely not to be the cause of anything
>     other than test unreliability. Bill W
>
>   You are missing the point. Individual IQ may not be that sharply defined,
>   but that link talked about a population mean.?

Exactly.

>   The bigger problem with the claim that a 3% increase has a huge effect is
>   simply that extrapolating linearly far from the current mean will not
>   work. Obviously a 10 point increase will not reduce high school drop-outs
>   to zero: the numbers just give a bit of evidence of the sensitivity.

But it's not a claim; it's a count. That is, there's no theory or prediction
involved. Instead, H&M counted the fraction of say, HS dropouts in the IQ 97,
IQ 100, and IQ 103 groups, and found the percentage changes reported.

>   Except that untangling causation is *tough*: these are domains where
>   feedbacks go both ways, especially when analysing "national IQs".?
>   But I think nearly all of the scientific literature supports that if
>   something could give on average a few extra IQ points it would have a
>   measurable positive effect. Not necessarily earth-shattering, but still
>   significant. And the tail effects are fascinating: a small boost would
>   increase the number of 140+ geniuses enormously, with high variance
>   effects depending on what they do.?

Yes. Correlation is not causation, and some people will be winners and
others losers regardless of the mean IQ, so the changes in the counts
that would result from actually altering the group IQ would be less
extreme than the observed counts were. Nevertheless, as you say, the
effects would be significant and are consistent with other research on
the effects of group IQ on social outcomes. 

And yes, the tail effects of "small" differences in the SD of Gaussian
distributions are astonishingly large. The URL below has a graph of the
IQ ratio of two populations which have slightly differing means and SDs.
Near the mean, the ratio is about 1:1, but it grows with IQ, and at IQ 170
there are more than 15 times as many of one group in the high-IQ fraction.

This is a statistical property of normal distributions that has
nothing to do with the particular trait being measured.

http://www.nosyntax.net/cfwiki/index.php/IQ_vs_male/female_ratio

Bottom line, if groups differ in mean and SD of IQ, and if some occupations
select for high IQ, then disproportionate representation is expected to occur
even in the absence of discrimination.

-rex
-- 
"...I paid a visit to Schrodinger in his Vienna apartment before his death...
There were no cats. I was told he did not like cats." -quantam leaps,
bernstein.



From anders at aleph.se  Thu Apr 16 21:22:59 2015
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2015 23:22:59 +0200
Subject: [ExI] The downsides of high IQ
In-Reply-To: <20150416200429.GA2118@nosyntax.net>
Message-ID: <3289809290-4138@secure.ericade.net>


rex <rex at nosyntax.net> , 16/4/2015 10:07 PM:
Anders Sandberg <anders at aleph.se> [2015-04-16 08:41]: 
> ? The bigger problem with the claim that a 3% increase has a huge effect is 
> ? simply that extrapolating linearly far from the current mean will not 
> ? work. Obviously a 10 point increase will not reduce high school drop-outs 
> ? to zero: the numbers just give a bit of evidence of the sensitivity. 
 
But it's not a claim; it's a count. That is, there's no theory or prediction 
involved. Instead, H&M counted the fraction of say, HS dropouts in the IQ 97, 
IQ 100, and IQ 103 groups, and found the percentage changes reported. 


Note that this observes groups in a static setting, not people who change their IQ.?


I also seriously doubt his finding actually was a 30% difference between the groups. It has been a while since I read the primary sources, but I think they did a regression. If there actually were a 30% difference over a span of 6 IQ points, people would be talking a lot about the very sharp transition at IQ 100.




And yes, the tail effects of "small" differences in the SD of Gaussian 
distributions are astonishingly large. The URL below has a graph of the 
IQ ratio of two populations which have slightly differing means and SDs. 
Near the mean, the ratio is about 1:1, but it grows with IQ, and at IQ 170 
there are more than 15 times as many of one group in the high-IQ fraction. 


Yep. Still, the actual social impact of smart people is surprisingly hard to track. We have nice studies like the ones by Benbow et al. that give some reason to think they are pretty productive and the benefits of extra smarts may even go up as we get further out (patent rate was double in the top quartile of the top 1% compared to the lower quartile). But exactly how much they add to society has never been properly mapped: we tell stories about geniuses who changed everything, but we miss the smart people who never do anything useful.?


The more one thinks society is moved by Great People, the more one should think even a modest IQ increase will increase the amount of Greats. But if one thinks it is more of a network effect, then the thing to watch is instead the right side of the normal hump, where there is a lot of people becoming more efficient and having less friction costs from the leftsiders.?



Anders Sandberg, Future of Humanity Institute Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University
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From giulio at gmail.com  Fri Apr 17 07:17:13 2015
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2015 09:17:13 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Press Release: A New State Has Been Declared - Liberland
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNR5tsSNfWSSrg-aj6vvy629yQrzTyfTQ0+oknZA7fwptA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKTCJyev-kBdyQFzTpJAs8ybNFg5HruHOCkrZwAtb21Ojowf4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNR5tsSNfWSSrg-aj6vvy629yQrzTyfTQ0+oknZA7fwptA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKTCJydSTLHCbem62wrO9b5sj+Hk+qeyOtKnBACnLReSxy8cNQ@mail.gmail.com>

Well they had tens of thousands signups on their foruma and FB page in
only a couple of days. Let's see what momentum they manage to build. I
am not optimistic, but I will keep watching. Bold disruptive
initiatives like Liberland have little chances of success, but doing
nothing has even less. Here is my article on Liberland and how it may
relate to digital cryptoeconomy:
https://bitcoinmagazine.com/20033/newly-declared-european-microstate-liberland-plans-create-digital-currency/

On Thu, Apr 16, 2015 at 7:56 PM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Apr 16, 2015 12:08 AM, "Giulio Prisco" <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:
>> This is super cool. I guess what will happen is that the powers that
>> be will crush the initiative in no time and persuade Serbia or Croatia
>> to claim the territory.
>
> Agreed.  To found a new nation you need at least 10,000 people, maybe at
> least 100,000.  Doing it if you don't even have 100 gets you ignored at
> first, then crushed.  By the looks of it, these guys - like most attempts,
> sadly - might not even have 10.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>


From atymes at gmail.com  Fri Apr 17 07:41:54 2015
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2015 00:41:54 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Press Release: A New State Has Been Declared - Liberland
In-Reply-To: <CAKTCJydSTLHCbem62wrO9b5sj+Hk+qeyOtKnBACnLReSxy8cNQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKTCJyev-kBdyQFzTpJAs8ybNFg5HruHOCkrZwAtb21Ojowf4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNR5tsSNfWSSrg-aj6vvy629yQrzTyfTQ0+oknZA7fwptA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTCJydSTLHCbem62wrO9b5sj+Hk+qeyOtKnBACnLReSxy8cNQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNSJamBMCbjPC2iPx-sJctTFWCaGrR7kgq48dVcACaYsAg@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 17, 2015 at 12:17 AM, Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:

> Well they had tens of thousands signups on their foruma and FB page in
> only a couple of days.


Doesn't count.  That's at least 10K, maybe at least 100K, physically
present and residing in the territory claimed.


> I
> am not optimistic, but I will keep watching. Bold disruptive
> initiatives like Liberland have little chances of success, but doing
> nothing has even less.
>

This is true.  But it helps to know how other efforts of the kind have
failed, so as to see if this one is repeating the same mistakes.
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Apr 17 18:03:27 2015
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2015 13:03:27 -0500
Subject: [ExI] crosswords
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZdiCj2pLx_jb+Y_tkMB6ZgyXKaFn6X=S+xWourCxQKWw@mail.gmail.com>

Are there any word people in this group?  I am relatively new to these
puzzles; only about 7 or 8 years of them.  I do the NYTs, and have
subscribed to the National Observer monthly and  Kappa puzzles monthly
featuring Herald Tribune.

What else would you suggest?  Not looking for very difficult puzzles and
certainly not easy ones.  Traditional, I think, fits my taste.  Mostly
about word knowledge if possible, and less about TV stars and movie
characters.

Thanks for your help!

Bill Wallace
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Fri Apr 17 19:23:53 2015
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2015 12:23:53 -0700
Subject: [ExI] crosswords
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEZdiCj2pLx_jb+Y_tkMB6ZgyXKaFn6X=S+xWourCxQKWw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEZdiCj2pLx_jb+Y_tkMB6ZgyXKaFn6X=S+xWourCxQKWw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy0TsCQU2oOMkeybfmVcGtfHLEyKam-=QOQ6NyZ90HgTDA@mail.gmail.com>

Are there science themed puzzles, of this type?

John

On Fri, Apr 17, 2015 at 11:03 AM, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com
> wrote:

> Are there any word people in this group?  I am relatively new to these
> puzzles; only about 7 or 8 years of them.  I do the NYTs, and have
> subscribed to the National Observer monthly and  Kappa puzzles monthly
> featuring Herald Tribune.
>
> What else would you suggest?  Not looking for very difficult puzzles and
> certainly not easy ones.  Traditional, I think, fits my taste.  Mostly
> about word knowledge if possible, and less about TV stars and movie
> characters.
>
> Thanks for your help!
>
> Bill Wallace
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Fri Apr 17 19:27:59 2015
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2015 12:27:59 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Press Release: A New State Has Been Declared - Liberland
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNSJamBMCbjPC2iPx-sJctTFWCaGrR7kgq48dVcACaYsAg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKTCJyev-kBdyQFzTpJAs8ybNFg5HruHOCkrZwAtb21Ojowf4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNR5tsSNfWSSrg-aj6vvy629yQrzTyfTQ0+oknZA7fwptA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTCJydSTLHCbem62wrO9b5sj+Hk+qeyOtKnBACnLReSxy8cNQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNSJamBMCbjPC2iPx-sJctTFWCaGrR7kgq48dVcACaYsAg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy1Zc_Tt57ko7oN9XRusuPkzhcYh=AuQwKkzZ98B_HoL1A@mail.gmail.com>

I remember seeing video footage of when some small group tried to create a
new nation on a tiny island near Tonga.  The King of Tonga was not pleased
and sent in his marines (yes, Tonga has marines, and they train with their
U.S. counterpart) to kick them out, though legally, they were not within
Tonga's territorial boundaries.  Oh, and Tonga also technically has a space
program! lol

John

On Fri, Apr 17, 2015 at 12:41 AM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Fri, Apr 17, 2015 at 12:17 AM, Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Well they had tens of thousands signups on their foruma and FB page in
>> only a couple of days.
>
>
> Doesn't count.  That's at least 10K, maybe at least 100K, physically
> present and residing in the territory claimed.
>
>
>> I
>> am not optimistic, but I will keep watching. Bold disruptive
>> initiatives like Liberland have little chances of success, but doing
>> nothing has even less.
>>
>
> This is true.  But it helps to know how other efforts of the kind have
> failed, so as to see if this one is repeating the same mistakes.
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From spike66 at att.net  Fri Apr 17 19:36:41 2015
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2015 12:36:41 -0700
Subject: [ExI] crosswords
In-Reply-To: <CAGSKFy0TsCQU2oOMkeybfmVcGtfHLEyKam-=QOQ6NyZ90HgTDA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEZdiCj2pLx_jb+Y_tkMB6ZgyXKaFn6X=S+xWourCxQKWw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGSKFy0TsCQU2oOMkeybfmVcGtfHLEyKam-=QOQ6NyZ90HgTDA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <023501d07945$d7301020$85903060$@att.net>

 

From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of John Grigg
Sent: Friday, April 17, 2015 12:24 PM
To: ExI chat list
Subject: Re: [ExI] crosswords

 

Are there science themed puzzles, of this type?

John

 

 

 

We need science-themed crossword puzzles, with none of that Hollywood junk on there.

 

Have you guys ever played Trivial Pursuits and noticed how lame are the ?Science and Nature? questions?  We need to make a science trivia game, written by real science and math geeks.

 

spike

 

 

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From tara at taramayastales.com  Fri Apr 17 20:03:35 2015
From: tara at taramayastales.com (Tara Maya)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2015 13:03:35 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Press Release: A New State Has Been Declared - Liberland
In-Reply-To: <CAKTCJydSTLHCbem62wrO9b5sj+Hk+qeyOtKnBACnLReSxy8cNQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKTCJyev-kBdyQFzTpJAs8ybNFg5HruHOCkrZwAtb21Ojowf4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNR5tsSNfWSSrg-aj6vvy629yQrzTyfTQ0+oknZA7fwptA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTCJydSTLHCbem62wrO9b5sj+Hk+qeyOtKnBACnLReSxy8cNQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C498EF86-E0C5-4AEC-8FBE-9CD97EA7F3AA@taramayastales.com>

?The only thing that could stop us is an army.?
---- https://bitcoinmagazine.com/20033/newly-declared-european-microstate-liberland-plans-create-digital-currency/

This seems to be the Achilles? Heel of most Libertarian projects. 


Tara Maya
Blog  |  Twitter  |  Facebook  |  Amazon  |  Goodreads



> On Apr 17, 2015, at 12:17 AM, Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Well they had tens of thousands signups on their foruma and FB page in
> only a couple of days. Let's see what momentum they manage to build. I
> am not optimistic, but I will keep watching. Bold disruptive
> initiatives like Liberland have little chances of success, but doing
> nothing has even less. Here is my article on Liberland and how it may
> relate to digital cryptoeconomy:
> https://bitcoinmagazine.com/20033/newly-declared-european-microstate-liberland-plans-create-digital-currency/
> 
> On Thu, Apr 16, 2015 at 7:56 PM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Apr 16, 2015 12:08 AM, "Giulio Prisco" <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> This is super cool. I guess what will happen is that the powers that
>>> be will crush the initiative in no time and persuade Serbia or Croatia
>>> to claim the territory.
>> 
>> Agreed.  To found a new nation you need at least 10,000 people, maybe at
>> least 100,000.  Doing it if you don't even have 100 gets you ignored at
>> first, then crushed.  By the looks of it, these guys - like most attempts,
>> sadly - might not even have 10.
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat




From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Fri Apr 17 20:37:31 2015
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2015 13:37:31 -0700
Subject: [ExI] You might be amused
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB5orZYngvqdarEifmzDqabWrMzsHw5Gp9HeJ0LZqwks=g@mail.gmail.com>

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/revoke-scientologys-tax-exempt-status

Keith


From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Apr 17 23:37:04 2015
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2015 18:37:04 -0500
Subject: [ExI] crosswords
In-Reply-To: <023501d07945$d7301020$85903060$@att.net>
References: <CAO+xQEZdiCj2pLx_jb+Y_tkMB6ZgyXKaFn6X=S+xWourCxQKWw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGSKFy0TsCQU2oOMkeybfmVcGtfHLEyKam-=QOQ6NyZ90HgTDA@mail.gmail.com>
 <023501d07945$d7301020$85903060$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYNrDoUuOvjAUT=uDMCiD1wCiKwtzNGcEqZDhgHCgC8qA@mail.gmail.com>

We need to make a science trivia game, written by real science and math
geeks.



spike


I'm in.  Exp. psych has some good hard stuff.  I have loads of time.  bill w

On Fri, Apr 17, 2015 at 2:36 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

>
>
> *From:* extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] *On
> Behalf Of *John Grigg
> *Sent:* Friday, April 17, 2015 12:24 PM
> *To:* ExI chat list
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] crosswords
>
>
>
> Are there science themed puzzles, of this type?
>
> John
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> We need science-themed crossword puzzles, with none of that Hollywood junk
> on there.
>
>
>
> Have you guys ever played Trivial Pursuits and noticed how lame are the
> ?Science and Nature? questions?  We need to make a science trivia game,
> written by real science and math geeks.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From protokol2020 at gmail.com  Sat Apr 18 11:32:55 2015
From: protokol2020 at gmail.com (Tomaz Kristan)
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2015 13:32:55 +0200
Subject: [ExI] crosswords
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYNrDoUuOvjAUT=uDMCiD1wCiKwtzNGcEqZDhgHCgC8qA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEZdiCj2pLx_jb+Y_tkMB6ZgyXKaFn6X=S+xWourCxQKWw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGSKFy0TsCQU2oOMkeybfmVcGtfHLEyKam-=QOQ6NyZ90HgTDA@mail.gmail.com>
 <023501d07945$d7301020$85903060$@att.net>
 <CAO+xQEYNrDoUuOvjAUT=uDMCiD1wCiKwtzNGcEqZDhgHCgC8qA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALMrAFTLoEhJQWgvQ===1acZcEL1UVG6h3LS+9-X7_TE3-K7VA@mail.gmail.com>

Speaking about crosswords. I have developed 3D crosswords, take a look!

https://protokol2020.wordpress.com/2014/08/12/8x8x8-word-cube/

On Sat, Apr 18, 2015 at 1:37 AM, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
wrote:

> We need to make a science trivia game, written by real science and math
> geeks.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
> I'm in.  Exp. psych has some good hard stuff.  I have loads of time.  bill
> w
>
> On Fri, Apr 17, 2015 at 2:36 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> *From:* extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] *On
>> Behalf Of *John Grigg
>> *Sent:* Friday, April 17, 2015 12:24 PM
>> *To:* ExI chat list
>> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] crosswords
>>
>>
>>
>> Are there science themed puzzles, of this type?
>>
>> John
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> We need science-themed crossword puzzles, with none of that Hollywood
>> junk on there.
>>
>>
>>
>> Have you guys ever played Trivial Pursuits and noticed how lame are the
>> ?Science and Nature? questions?  We need to make a science trivia game,
>> written by real science and math geeks.
>>
>>
>>
>> spike
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>


-- 
https://protokol2020.wordpress.com/
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From anders at aleph.se  Sun Apr 19 08:48:31 2015
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2015 10:48:31 +0200
Subject: [ExI] crosswords
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYNrDoUuOvjAUT=uDMCiD1wCiKwtzNGcEqZDhgHCgC8qA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3503616436-24353@secure.ericade.net>


William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com> , 18/4/2015 1:40 AM:

We need to make a science trivia game, written by real science and math geeks.


How many cell types does a placozoan have?
What is the fractal dimension of a Cantor set?
Which planet is orbited by the moon Fornjot?
How many neutrinos from?SN 1987A did?Super-Kamiokande detect?
Who was Wittgenstein's thesis advisor? [*]

[* OK, that one is a trick question... Maybe we should have an option to point out trick questions for extra points.]



Anders Sandberg, Future of Humanity Institute Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University
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From anders at aleph.se  Sun Apr 19 08:49:33 2015
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2015 10:49:33 +0200
Subject: [ExI] crosswords
In-Reply-To: <CALMrAFTLoEhJQWgvQ===1acZcEL1UVG6h3LS+9-X7_TE3-K7VA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3504230874-24740@secure.ericade.net>


Tomaz Kristan <protokol2020 at gmail.com> , 18/4/2015 1:36 PM:

Speaking about crosswords. I have developed 3D crosswords, take a look!


https://protokol2020.wordpress.com/2014/08/12/8x8x8-word-cube/


Neat. I found the visualization a bit tough; this is where some 3D with slicing tools would be helpful.

Anders Sandberg, Future of Humanity Institute Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sun Apr 19 15:34:20 2015
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2015 10:34:20 -0500
Subject: [ExI] crosswords
In-Reply-To: <3504230874-24740@secure.ericade.net>
References: <CALMrAFTLoEhJQWgvQ===1acZcEL1UVG6h3LS+9-X7_TE3-K7VA@mail.gmail.com>
 <3504230874-24740@secure.ericade.net>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbAneuSzV3zWU0riGZryPdGRcYda--dBH7_e+PC-scBsw@mail.gmail.com>

How many cell types does a placozoan have?
What is the fractal dimension of a Cantor set?
Which planet is orbited by the moon Fornjot?
How many neutrinos from SN 1987A did Super-Kamiokande detect?
Who was Wittgenstein's thesis advisor? [*]

[* OK, that one is a trick question... Maybe we should have an option to
point out trick questions for extra points.]


Anders Sandberg, Future of Humanity Institute Philosophy Faculty of Oxford
University

Here's one for the nonscience crowd:

Name a Nobel Prize winner in any science in the last 50 years.

I'll bet most people could not name even one.  Just is not taught in
school.  Popularity goes to the Twitter/Hollywood/Facebook, TV crowd.
Aren't we so proud of the human race?  If the Singularity occurs, we can
get rid of the lower 99% of humans and not miss a step.

bill w



On Sun, Apr 19, 2015 at 3:49 AM, Anders Sandberg <anders at aleph.se> wrote:

> Tomaz Kristan <protokol2020 at gmail.com> , 18/4/2015 1:36 PM:
>
> Speaking about crosswords. I have developed 3D crosswords, take a look!
>
> https://protokol2020.wordpress.com/2014/08/12/8x8x8-word-cube/
>
>
> Neat. I found the visualization a bit tough; this is where some 3D with
> slicing tools would be helpful.
>
>
> Anders Sandberg, Future of Humanity Institute Philosophy Faculty of Oxford
> University
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From jay.dugger at gmail.com  Mon Apr 20 04:44:36 2015
From: jay.dugger at gmail.com (Jay Dugger)
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2015 23:44:36 -0500
Subject: [ExI] crosswords
Message-ID: <CAAHSk+j+3Vvi3OcZp3BXg-PtfUzQ59-+KzJfriOgip7CpCXJSw@mail.gmail.com>

There exists a site for regular expressions crosswords, but I lack the URL
at the moment.
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From protokol2020 at gmail.com  Mon Apr 20 09:51:54 2015
From: protokol2020 at gmail.com (Tomaz Kristan)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2015 11:51:54 +0200
Subject: [ExI] crosswords
In-Reply-To: <CAAHSk+j+3Vvi3OcZp3BXg-PtfUzQ59-+KzJfriOgip7CpCXJSw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAHSk+j+3Vvi3OcZp3BXg-PtfUzQ59-+KzJfriOgip7CpCXJSw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALMrAFSwscQH1jYRHjoax1aK3bvwYagY+MqU7BUrqMCg5aUiDA@mail.gmail.com>

Anders (and everybody else here),

I have developed this algorithm and I am using a 3D crossword just as a
proof of a concept.

Perhaps, there is a market for 3D crosswords, I don't know. I have
thousands of them (fully automatically) constructed. As far as I know,
nobody has developed one such a crossword yet. Perhaps very small like
4*4*4 or 3*3*3 or 2*2*2. Especially not without blanks, which is much
harder than with some black fields.

I wonder, if there is a market.

P.S.

(A 3D Android "slicier" has been developed, too.)



On Mon, Apr 20, 2015 at 6:44 AM, Jay Dugger <jay.dugger at gmail.com> wrote:

> There exists a site for regular expressions crosswords, but I lack the URL
> at the moment.
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>


-- 
https://protokol2020.wordpress.com/
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From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Mon Apr 20 20:32:41 2015
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2015 13:32:41 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Gigadeath was crosswords
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB6eBnQt1hpeDQXJ+4WEXbbe3mi+yEV9F89HbFXNPnX+qg@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Apr 20, 2015 at 5:00 AM,   William Flynn Wallace
<foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:

snip

> Name a Nobel Prize winner in any science in the last 50 years.
>
> I'll bet most people could not name even one.  Just is not taught in
> school.  Popularity goes to the Twitter/Hollywood/Facebook, TV crowd.
> Aren't we so proud of the human race?  If the Singularity occurs, we can
> get rid of the lower 99% of humans and not miss a step.

Bill, if the Extropian list had a mechanism to toss people, for me
this post would invoke it.

It's not the subject, Drexler speculated about governments throwing
away inconvenient populations 30 years ago, but the approving
attitude.

I bust my ass trying to figure an out from running out of low cost
energy and most of the human population dying in famines and wars.

I was going to post news on significant on progress, but you have
soured me on even being here.

Keith


From foozler83 at gmail.com  Mon Apr 20 20:53:39 2015
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2015 15:53:39 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Gigadeath was crosswords
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB6eBnQt1hpeDQXJ+4WEXbbe3mi+yEV9F89HbFXNPnX+qg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB6eBnQt1hpeDQXJ+4WEXbbe3mi+yEV9F89HbFXNPnX+qg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbzva3cyJY35nDRj3qqLkhnba3ghxrxF7nCmj7fo1OKtw@mail.gmail.com>

OnMon, Apr 20, 2015 at 3:32 PM, Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com>
wrote:Bill, if the Extropian list had a mechanism to toss people, for
methis post would invoke it.It's not the subject, Drexler speculated about
governments throwingaway inconvenient populations 30 years ago, but the
approvingattitude.I bust my ass trying to figure an out from running out of
low costenergy and most of the human population dying in famines and wars.I
was going to post news on significant on progress, but you havesoured me on
even being
here.Keith_______________________________________________extropy-chat
mailing

?Keith, I am old and tired and depressed a lot and have two cancers and
unloving children and a lot more.  I am really sorry if my mood got into
the post and of course it did.  As a teacher I spent more time trying to
help the lower ones learn at least something.  Do your best to help
humanity and ignore posts like mine.  I will not repeat it.  Just sometimes
the inhumanity to man and the superstitiousness and irrationality of people
just get to me.  I know everyone cannot be as smart as most of us here are,
but I do hope that eugenics fixes that over time.?  Just as Ben FRanklin
failed at being humble, I often fail at not being condescending to humanity.

bill w
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From mark at cosmicpenguin.com  Mon Apr 20 21:10:58 2015
From: mark at cosmicpenguin.com (Mark S Bilk)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2015 14:10:58 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Gigadeath was crosswords
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB6eBnQt1hpeDQXJ+4WEXbbe3mi+yEV9F89HbFXNPnX+qg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB6eBnQt1hpeDQXJ+4WEXbbe3mi+yEV9F89HbFXNPnX+qg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20150420211058.GH26519@isis>

On Mon, Apr 20, 2015 at 01:32:41PM -0700, Keith Henson wrote:
>On Mon, Apr 20, 2015 at 5:00 AM,   William Flynn Wallace
><foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>snip
>
>> Name a Nobel Prize winner in any science in the last 50 years.
>>
>> I'll bet most people could not name even one.  Just is not taught in
>> school.  Popularity goes to the Twitter/Hollywood/Facebook, TV crowd.
>> Aren't we so proud of the human race?  If the Singularity occurs, we can
>> get rid of the lower 99% of humans and not miss a step.
>
>Bill, if the Extropian list had a mechanism to toss people, for me
>this post would invoke it.
>
>It's not the subject, Drexler speculated about governments throwing
>away inconvenient populations 30 years ago, but the approving
>attitude.
>
>I bust my ass trying to figure an out from running out of low cost
>energy and most of the human population dying in famines and wars.
>
>I was going to post news on significant on progress, but you have
>soured me on even being here.

Hi Keith, 

Wallace is only one person on this list.  Please don't 
give up on the rest of us because of his harmful idea.

What progress are you seeing in energy sources?

Do you follow LENR/CANR and hydrino (Blacklight) research?
Is any of that looking good to you these days*?

  Mark
  
  


From mark at cosmicpenguin.com  Mon Apr 20 21:23:42 2015
From: mark at cosmicpenguin.com (Mark S Bilk)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2015 14:23:42 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Cancer -was: Gigadeath
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEbzva3cyJY35nDRj3qqLkhnba3ghxrxF7nCmj7fo1OKtw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB6eBnQt1hpeDQXJ+4WEXbbe3mi+yEV9F89HbFXNPnX+qg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEbzva3cyJY35nDRj3qqLkhnba3ghxrxF7nCmj7fo1OKtw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20150420212342.GI26519@isis>

On Mon, Apr 20, 2015 at 03:53:39PM -0500, William Flynn Wallace wrote:
>...
>?Keith, I am old and tired and depressed a lot and have two cancers...

A few years ago it was discovered that cancers can be destroyed 
by the promotion of apoptosis, which is inactive in them but can 
be turned on by eating various nutrients and/or dichloroacetate.

Add cannabidiol and dandelion root to the list of apoptosis 
promoters on this (sloppy, sorry) web page:

http://cosmicpenguin.com/cancer/

Good luck!



From spike66 at att.net  Mon Apr 20 22:11:23 2015
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2015 15:11:23 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Gigadeath was crosswords
In-Reply-To: <20150420211058.GH26519@isis>
References: <CAPiwVB6eBnQt1hpeDQXJ+4WEXbbe3mi+yEV9F89HbFXNPnX+qg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150420211058.GH26519@isis>
Message-ID: <086601d07bb6$f172a0b0$d457e210$@att.net>

...
>It's not the subject, Drexler speculated about governments throwing 
>away inconvenient populations 30 years ago, but the approving attitude...


I interpreted Bill's commentary as a Swiftian Modest Proposal, an
intentionally shocking satire.  It invoked memories of Robert Bradbury
suggesting nuking Afghanistan to promote the singularity.  Remember his
always doing crap like that?  In any case, Bill's explanation sounded
sincere enough for this moderator.

Carry on, me lads and lasses!

spike



From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Tue Apr 21 01:14:11 2015
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2015 18:14:11 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Gigadeath was crosswords
In-Reply-To: <086601d07bb6$f172a0b0$d457e210$@att.net>
References: <CAPiwVB6eBnQt1hpeDQXJ+4WEXbbe3mi+yEV9F89HbFXNPnX+qg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150420211058.GH26519@isis>
 <086601d07bb6$f172a0b0$d457e210$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy2TaMmtTJcvxOefpWTGDVKJr3xquSvsp5wae9uuj_x0-A@mail.gmail.com>

I deeply miss Robert Bradbury!  He was my "Extropian Uncle."  Spike, I
fondly remember coming down from Alaska for Extropy 5, and being in your
backyard at a small table, with you, Robert and Greg Burch, discussing his
technology/business ideas and plans.  And I also recall Robert "holding
court" at the conference, with college students and others enthusiastically
enjoying the discussions he lead.

John  :  (    :  )

On Mon, Apr 20, 2015 at 3:11 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

> ...
> >It's not the subject, Drexler speculated about governments throwing
> >away inconvenient populations 30 years ago, but the approving attitude...
>
>
> I interpreted Bill's commentary as a Swiftian Modest Proposal, an
> intentionally shocking satire.  It invoked memories of Robert Bradbury
> suggesting nuking Afghanistan to promote the singularity.  Remember his
> always doing crap like that?  In any case, Bill's explanation sounded
> sincere enough for this moderator.
>
> Carry on, me lads and lasses!
>
> spike
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike66 at att.net  Tue Apr 21 03:27:42 2015
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2015 20:27:42 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Gigadeath was crosswords
In-Reply-To: <CAGSKFy2TaMmtTJcvxOefpWTGDVKJr3xquSvsp5wae9uuj_x0-A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB6eBnQt1hpeDQXJ+4WEXbbe3mi+yEV9F89HbFXNPnX+qg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20150420211058.GH26519@isis> <086601d07bb6$f172a0b0$d457e210$@att.net>
 <CAGSKFy2TaMmtTJcvxOefpWTGDVKJr3xquSvsp5wae9uuj_x0-A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <088e01d07be3$22b84a40$6828dec0$@att.net>

 

 

From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of John Grigg
Sent: Monday, April 20, 2015 6:14 PM
To: ExI chat list
Subject: Re: [ExI] Gigadeath was crosswords

 

I deeply miss Robert Bradbury!  He was my "Extropian Uncle."  Spike, I fondly remember coming down from Alaska for Extropy 5, and being in your backyard at a small table, with you, Robert and Greg Burch, discussing his technology/business ideas and plans.  And I also recall Robert "holding court" at the conference, with college students and others enthusiastically enjoying the discussions he lead.  

 

John  :  (    :  )

 

 

He?s been gone over 4 yrs now, and I miss him like he left us yesterday.

 

So much I need to get with the program and write up those ideas we worked on.  Where we left off was in the thermal models.  He passed away before I discovered that business about needing to direct the sunlight in one direction to prevent overheating.  Oh I need to get with it and write.

 

One of my fond memories of Robert was a time we had a party at my place and Melanie Swan came, with her Significant Other, who was an innocent.  He knew nothing of our crowd and how we were.  Robert was there, being Robert.  The look on Melanie?s sweetheart?s face was priceless.  Oh for a video of that discussion.  {8^D

 

spike

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From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Tue Apr 21 04:43:01 2015
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2015 00:43:01 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Death in life
Message-ID: <CAAc1gFjTfV2za+7T6UN7Rus5zGmWB=tZiny0_mBPbdH+AtFQJQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 16, 2015 at 6:06 AM, Anders Sandberg <anders at aleph.se> wrote:


> Intelligence hence allows the dynamics of the universe to make sudden
> jumps pretty far outside the envelope of what is normally going on.
>

### Indeed. The possibility of really massive jumps outside the envelope,
like new false vacuum transitions, is the one Fermi paradox explanation
that makes sense to me, given anthropic considerations, even if I really,
really don't like it.

Rafa?
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From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Tue Apr 21 04:46:15 2015
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2015 00:46:15 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Kingsman
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNRtv99SQegsYb0kNkrZWyEHjSVbciFi+o0puhywiEqSow@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB5xQxX54d2wDvioOTT+PdqHZmyRHmY+J0kvXnV3cJK+QA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRtv99SQegsYb0kNkrZWyEHjSVbciFi+o0puhywiEqSow@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAAc1gFiLzfdH3JfyXB=spzuQsHE_-b=RsGb+7bvBiXA=Jq1-xQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Apr 12, 2015 at 2:05 AM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sun, Apr 5, 2015 at 10:23 PM, Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> It?s quite strange to have the attitudes of people you were debating
>> some 6 years ago define a movie villain.
>>
>
> Those who commit evils IRL, never self-identify as the bad guys.  Only
> through the eyes of others are they seen as villains, and willful blatantly
> evil motives ascribed to them.
>

### Dunno. I might not be baddest guy around, but know there is enough evil
me to feed a few weasels, and a snake or two. There are creatures out there
who are much more evil and like it, too.

Rafal
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From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Tue Apr 21 05:00:19 2015
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2015 01:00:19 -0400
Subject: [ExI] The downsides of high IQ
In-Reply-To: <02206D26-7674-44E8-99F8-9F6A7194DA72@taramayastales.com>
References: <3157605626-31916@secure.ericade.net>
 <11E8D2B6-6BE3-41CE-97F0-9AE609E5248E@taramayastales.com>
 <CAAc1gFhhmvsSOa4WhjqtzDv85t5C7K_2jn0-6AVw6xv3Yt1zqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <02206D26-7674-44E8-99F8-9F6A7194DA72@taramayastales.com>
Message-ID: <CAAc1gFj4zDQna6KskHfXCEPLWTHpZZnWBj=CFyLKoZLffUhttQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 11:37 AM, Tara Maya <tara at taramayastales.com> wrote:

> Well, then the reverse would be true for Republicans. Higher IQ still
> would not necessarily translate into better policies. And perhaps it goes
> for Presidents too. I?ve heard, though I don?t know if it?s true, that
> Nixon and Carter had among the highest IQs of all Presidents...
>

### Far from being a Republican myself (really far), I have to note that
their policies are overall better than Democratic ones. With an IQ
difference of 3 we should expect a small difference in quality of ideas,
and this is indeed what I see: After sifting the chaff of fringe issues,
and even after accounting for their slightly higher appetite for wars of
many kinds, Republicans reasonably consistently are on the less stupid side
of most important issues. I still would not vote Republican but their
policies are evidence that increased intelligence offers some protection
against making stupid errors.

Rafa?
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From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Tue Apr 21 05:03:39 2015
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2015 01:03:39 -0400
Subject: [ExI] The downsides of high IQ
In-Reply-To: <20150416200429.GA2118@nosyntax.net>
References: <CAO+xQEYks3hvvC4OyUgQ+ki=s-QccKKapWT1ZhUa+7A8dO4ghw@mail.gmail.com>
 <3269084338-5702@secure.ericade.net>
 <20150416200429.GA2118@nosyntax.net>
Message-ID: <CAAc1gFh_Z7kWv2bY+s6ezs4Mat3zmS8ER4Cp98uzWbt=KzjUMw@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 16, 2015 at 4:04 PM, rex <rex at nosyntax.net> wrote:


> This is a statistical property of normal distributions that has
> nothing to do with the particular trait being measured.
>
> http://www.nosyntax.net/cfwiki/index.php/IQ_vs_male/female_ratio
>
> Bottom line, if groups differ in mean and SD of IQ, and if some occupations
> select for high IQ, then disproportionate representation is expected to
> occur
> even in the absence of discrimination.


### Hey, beware, mentioning this hatefact could get you booted from work,
if you are a Harvard president :)

Rafal
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From atymes at gmail.com  Tue Apr 21 06:23:13 2015
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2015 23:23:13 -0700
Subject: [ExI] crosswords
In-Reply-To: <023501d07945$d7301020$85903060$@att.net>
References: <CAO+xQEZdiCj2pLx_jb+Y_tkMB6ZgyXKaFn6X=S+xWourCxQKWw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGSKFy0TsCQU2oOMkeybfmVcGtfHLEyKam-=QOQ6NyZ90HgTDA@mail.gmail.com>
 <023501d07945$d7301020$85903060$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNSt2Vjtu8Jr2pFo+s+rhe0QRZOjnHEKbnxggM9+2SFZ2w@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 17, 2015 at 12:36 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

> We need science-themed crossword puzzles, with none of that Hollywood junk
> on there.
>
>
> Have you guys ever played Trivial Pursuits and noticed how lame are the
> ?Science and Nature? questions?  We need to make a science trivia game,
> written by real science and math geeks.
>

Tons of them out there.  They don't sell as well, but they sell well enough
that many get published - and then there are the free ones, whether
ad-supported, made as part of an exhibit, or just made for the love of a
topic.  For instance, National Geographic has sponsored a few over the
years - but mostly just google for what you're looking for.
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From rex at nosyntax.net  Tue Apr 21 08:05:34 2015
From: rex at nosyntax.net (rex)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2015 01:05:34 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The downsides of high IQ
In-Reply-To: <CAAc1gFh_Z7kWv2bY+s6ezs4Mat3zmS8ER4Cp98uzWbt=KzjUMw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYks3hvvC4OyUgQ+ki=s-QccKKapWT1ZhUa+7A8dO4ghw@mail.gmail.com>
 <3269084338-5702@secure.ericade.net>
 <20150416200429.GA2118@nosyntax.net>
 <CAAc1gFh_Z7kWv2bY+s6ezs4Mat3zmS8ER4Cp98uzWbt=KzjUMw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20150421080534.GA2556@nosyntax.net>

Rafal Smigrodzki <rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com> [2015-04-20 22:04]:
>   On Thu, Apr 16, 2015 at 4:04 PM, rex <[1]rex at nosyntax.net> wrote:
>   ?
>
>     This is a statistical property of normal distributions that has
>     nothing to do with the particular trait being measured.
>
>     [2]http://www.nosyntax.net/cfwiki/index.php/IQ_vs_male/female_ratio
>
>     Bottom line, if groups differ in mean and SD of IQ, and if some
>     occupations
>     select for high IQ, then disproportionate representation is expected to
>     occur
>     even in the absence of discrimination.
>
>   ### Hey, beware, mentioning this hatefact could get you booted from work,
>   if you are a Harvard president :)

Yes. Innumeracy in action. :(

La Griffe du Lion has many insightful essays on IQ and other Politically 
Incorrect topics.

http://www.lagriffedulion.f2s.com/

-rex
-- 
"It ain't what you don't know that gets you, it's the things you know that
ain't so"    -- Mark Twain



From pharos at gmail.com  Tue Apr 21 11:31:38 2015
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2015 12:31:38 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Bees are clever!
Message-ID: <CAL_armgt3gEnL7nY6mPgHrJi0AsSFUARHtTxRa6tY8YRs+ydHQ@mail.gmail.com>

Two articles about bee cognition.
<http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/not-bad-science/2015/04/20/inside-the-wonderful-world-of-bee-cognition-how-it-all-began/>
<http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/not-bad-science/2015/04/20/inside-the-wonderful-world-of-bee-cognition-where-were-at-now/>

Quotes:
bees are capable of learning which flowers offer good nectar rewards
based on floral features such as colour, smell, shape, texture,
pattern, temperature and electric charge. They do this through
associative learning: learning that a 'conditioned stimulus' (for
example, the colour yellow) is associated with an 'unconditioned
stimulus' (nectar). Learning simple associations like these is the
basis of all learning - pretty much all animals do it, from humans to
the sea slug which doesn't even have a brain.

Instead a bee might have to learn 'blue flowers have better nectar
than yellow flowers, but only in the morning' or 'this particular
species of blue flower which also has a specific smell has better
nectar than yellow flowers, but another species of blue flower has
worse nectar'.
Honeybees can indeed learn more complex relationships like this.

However, honeybees' and bumblebees' cognitive abilities go beyond
these examples of simply learning about their worlds, be it under a
number of complex conditions. One excellent study showed that bees
could actually form abstract concepts about their world. Having an
abstract concept is the ability to understand a general fact about the
way things are and to being able to generalise that fact to new
situations you might encounter, as opposed to learning relationships
that only hold in one particular situation.
(Complex experiment then described).
---------------

Pretty good for such a tiny processor.  :)


BillK


From mike at 7f.com  Tue Apr 21 18:03:59 2015
From: mike at 7f.com (Michael Roberts)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2015 11:03:59 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Bees are clever!
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armgt3gEnL7nY6mPgHrJi0AsSFUARHtTxRa6tY8YRs+ydHQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armgt3gEnL7nY6mPgHrJi0AsSFUARHtTxRa6tY8YRs+ydHQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJ4XrpVdg2Udp-xGLOv8HXsyFEY+z2GWG9QjVu5K7isv65htQw@mail.gmail.com>

Not to mention the collective intelligence and social aspects ...

http://intelligence.seti.org/pages/social_insects

I recently went to a workshop with Michael Thiel:

http://gaiabees.com/

He would have you believe it extends far beyond current science.  YMMV
with this depending on your beliefs and tolerance for "trippy shit".

I'll also leave this here (some speculation on the waggle dance and
similarity with projections of quantum manifold structures) :

http://apisuk.com/Bees/2013/09/research-%E2%80%93-mysterious-%E2%80%9Cquantum%E2%80%9D-dance-of-the-bees/

MR

On Tue, Apr 21, 2015 at 4:31 AM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:
> Two articles about bee cognition.
> <http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/not-bad-science/2015/04/20/inside-the-wonderful-world-of-bee-cognition-how-it-all-began/>
> <http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/not-bad-science/2015/04/20/inside-the-wonderful-world-of-bee-cognition-where-were-at-now/>
>
> Quotes:
> bees are capable of learning which flowers offer good nectar rewards
> based on floral features such as colour, smell, shape, texture,
> pattern, temperature and electric charge. They do this through
> associative learning: learning that a 'conditioned stimulus' (for
> example, the colour yellow) is associated with an 'unconditioned
> stimulus' (nectar). Learning simple associations like these is the
> basis of all learning - pretty much all animals do it, from humans to
> the sea slug which doesn't even have a brain.
>
> Instead a bee might have to learn 'blue flowers have better nectar
> than yellow flowers, but only in the morning' or 'this particular
> species of blue flower which also has a specific smell has better
> nectar than yellow flowers, but another species of blue flower has
> worse nectar'.
> Honeybees can indeed learn more complex relationships like this.
>
> However, honeybees' and bumblebees' cognitive abilities go beyond
> these examples of simply learning about their worlds, be it under a
> number of complex conditions. One excellent study showed that bees
> could actually form abstract concepts about their world. Having an
> abstract concept is the ability to understand a general fact about the
> way things are and to being able to generalise that fact to new
> situations you might encounter, as opposed to learning relationships
> that only hold in one particular situation.
> (Complex experiment then described).
> ---------------
>
> Pretty good for such a tiny processor.  :)
>
>
> BillK
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From anders at aleph.se  Tue Apr 21 22:13:16 2015
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2015 00:13:16 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Bees are clever!
In-Reply-To: <CAJ4XrpVdg2Udp-xGLOv8HXsyFEY+z2GWG9QjVu5K7isv65htQw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3724791069-23734@secure.ericade.net>

I have another new favourite smart arthropod, the Portia spiders.?


They hunt other spiders and it looks like they actually out-think them. Using 600,000 neurons, 60% of a bee.?
http://www.dichotomistic.com/mind_readings_spider%20minds.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portia_(genus)
http://www.rifters.com/real/2009/01/iterating-towards-bethlehem.html


I found them thanks to Peter Watts latest novel "Echopraxia" (a kind of sequel to Blindsight). Lots of awesome ideas and disturbing transhumans.?


Anders Sandberg, Future of Humanity Institute Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University
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From kuudes at leijuvakaupunki.fi  Tue Apr 21 13:16:02 2015
From: kuudes at leijuvakaupunki.fi (kuudes)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2015 16:16:02 +0300
Subject: [ExI] introduction to extropy
Message-ID: <9707D5A9-384D-4206-A2F2-1B5C0C516DB6@leijuvakaupunki.fi>

Hi everyone!

As a new subscriber, please allow me to introduce myself. I have followed the list for a couple of months now and I hope I have at least some understanding of the habits and customs of the list.

I am kuudes from Oulu, Finland. My hobbies include studying human intelligence and sometimes general rationality. I have graduated as Master of Science in Information Processing Science a couple of years ago.

I am interested in the general concept of extropy and on many things I observe possibly being near the memescape of this list. If you want to give me some pointers, I appreciate your effort.

What is extropy? I think I have run into something, which relates to a system having capability of creating entropy in future, and also I have read the Wissner-Gross paper (dspace.mit.edu/openaccess-disseminate/1721.1/79750) on entropic force. In general, I feel somewhat confused on these concepts. What should I read and is it feasible for me to try to learn these things? Are these concepts related to the area of the interest of this list or some general community?

What should I know?

I welcome your input and thank you in advance!

-kuudes
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From spike66 at att.net  Wed Apr 22 15:59:19 2015
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2015 08:59:19 -0700
Subject: [ExI] introduction to extropy
In-Reply-To: <9707D5A9-384D-4206-A2F2-1B5C0C516DB6@leijuvakaupunki.fi>
References: <9707D5A9-384D-4206-A2F2-1B5C0C516DB6@leijuvakaupunki.fi>
Message-ID: <001401d07d15$4cc94b30$e65be190$@att.net>

 

 

From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf
Of kuudes
Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2015 6:16 AM
To: Extropy Chat
Subject: [ExI] introduction to extropy

 

>.Hi everyone!

>.As a new subscriber, please allow me to introduce myself.In general, I
feel somewhat confused on these concepts. What should I read and is it
feasible for me to try to learn these things? Are these concepts related to
the area of the interest of this list or some general community?  What
should I know?  -kuudes

 

 

Welcome Kuudes,

 

This is the Extropian Principles 3.0:

 

http://www.highexistence.com/the-extropian-principles/

 

 

I don't know who put this reading list together, but it appears to be
current.  I see some really good stuff on here:

 

http://www.nanotech-now.com/transhuman-books.htm

 

ExI-chat protocol going back two decades: trim your replies, post your
thoughts below the material to which you are replying, as I did above.

 

Welcome to the future!

 

spike

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From clausb at gmail.com  Wed Apr 22 17:53:08 2015
From: clausb at gmail.com (Claus Bornich)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2015 19:53:08 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Portia Spider hunting Spiders on 600K neurons - Was: Bees are
	clever!
Message-ID: <CACwq0OfXHwPM2SO+Ntb_5VZzc8nR_y34OGWAyPdgtrTk6nYmbQ@mail.gmail.com>

Anders Sandberg  wrote:

> I have another new favourite smart arthropod, the Portia spiders.?
> http://www.dichotomistic.com/mind_readings_spider%20minds.html
>

Thank you for the link, enjoyed reading that. I too stumbled upon the
Portia in "Echopraxia". Anyone interested might find it easier to look for
"Firefall" which is Blindsight and Echopraxia in one volume.

I first discovered Peter Watts with the excellent, but very dark and
menacing, Starfish. Since then my awe for his work has only grown.
Blindsight is crammed with great and well researched ideas, unusual highly
transhuman characters (posthuman even?), clever plot and a great take on
consciousness and intelligence. Echopraxia was a bit less convincing in
parts, but still a good read with wonderfully researched ideas.

That the Portia seems to be able to build up a complicated path to its
target by sequentially scanning the landscape for up to an hour and then
spend as long traveling the complicated route without even seeing the
target, and all on just 600K neurons is fantastic.

Claus
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From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Wed Apr 22 18:21:56 2015
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2015 11:21:56 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Power sats again, was Gigadeath was crosswords
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB6DZxqC7bPcV2+tLOi5P8QPGi8d_vAwx+ukaDCtABBGKQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 21, 2015 at 5:00 AM,   William Flynn Wallace
<foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:

snip

> ?Keith, I am old and tired and depressed a lot and have two cancers and
> unloving children and a lot more.  I am really sorry if my mood got into
> the post and of course it did.

Accepted.  We are, as I recall, about the same age, but I seem to be
resistant to depression.  I tend to be sensitive about this topic.
First time I published on The Oil Drum, the flame war over the
desirability of a massive human die off got so bad that other blogs
were commenting on it.

"If you take a few minutes to read this blog, and again the comments,
you find the dissonance on full display. On the one hand you have a
person saying that there may be an energy answer after fossil fuels.
On the other hand you have lots of people not only saying it is not
possible, but directly arguing that a human die-back is more desirable
than cheap energy."

http://www.futurist.com/2009/06/15/energy-and-the-future-space-based-power-and-cognitive-dissonance/

Ran into this the first time back in 1975 at a Limits to Growth conference.

Mark S Bilk <mark at cosmicpenguin.com> wrote:

snip

> What progress are you seeing in energy sources?
>
> Do you follow LENR/CANR and hydrino (Blacklight) research?
> Is any of that looking good to you these days*?

No.

Though any cheap energy source would spell the end of the power
satellite project.  Collectively all such sources contribute to the
risk of the investment failing due to the market being taken by
something cheaper.

Over the past few months a proposal has come together to build power
satellites that deliver electricity from space cheaper than coal.

I have the physics and economics fairly well under control, but the
next step is selling the idea to the engineering community and then to
political leaders.  That is something I don't have good ideas on how
to do.

We have 7 minutes of gorgeous video of sending up the parts and
constructing a power satellite. Can't release it until May 24 because
of contest rules it was done for.

The proposal depends on Skylon hauling cargo to LEO for $120/kg and
ground powered electrical propulsion from LEO up to GEO that adds
another $65/kg for a total of less than $200/kg.  That's about a 100
to one reduction over current cost to lift communication satellites to
GEO and at least ten fold less than the most optimistic SpaceX
numbers.

It also looks like thermal power satellites will mass about 6.5 kg/kW.
That makes the lift cost to GEO no more than $1300/kW.  The rectenna
and parts cost to build the power satellite comes in around $1100/kg
for a cost of $2400/kW.  The formula is 1/80,000 of the cost to get
cents per kWh so this would be 3 cents per kWh.  That undercuts coal
at 4 cents by 25%.

I have a couple of recent technical/economic articles that go into
detail.  The one on transport is here:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5iotdmmTJQsc2htUG5yVTczT2xBME1GOGhzWlBaWkg5R29v/view?usp=sharing

The other one is on analyzing the mass of a 5 GW power satellite.  Ask
if you want to see the current draft.

Keith


From spike66 at att.net  Wed Apr 22 18:43:35 2015
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2015 11:43:35 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Power sats again, was Gigadeath was crosswords
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB6DZxqC7bPcV2+tLOi5P8QPGi8d_vAwx+ukaDCtABBGKQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB6DZxqC7bPcV2+tLOi5P8QPGi8d_vAwx+ukaDCtABBGKQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00c501d07d2c$3fb9d240$bf2d76c0$@att.net>


On Tue, Apr 21, 2015 at 5:00 AM,   William Flynn Wallace
<foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:

snip

>>... ?Keith, I am old and tired and depressed a lot and have two cancers 
> and unloving children and a lot more.  I am really sorry if my mood 
> got into the post and of course it did.

>...Accepted.  We are, as I recall, about the same age, but I seem to be
resistant to depression.  I tend to be sensitive about this topic.
First time I published on The Oil Drum, the flame war over the desirability
of a massive human die off got so bad that other blogs were commenting on
it...
Keith
_______________________________________________

Thanks for being a good sport Keith.

A universal characteristic of those who freely speak of a Malthusian die-off
of humanity is that nearly universally those speakers imagine they and their
families will not be among the perished.  

But think on that for just a minute.  One of the possible futures resulting
in our collective failure to react to the foreseeable end of fossil fuel is
a massive simultaneous failure of our power distribution system.  Imagine
all the havoc that would create.  Now imagine the parts of the world which
would scarcely notice if that system came crashing down: Australian outback,
the more remote areas in central and sub-Saharan Africa, the equatorial rain
forests and so forth.  If a starving western world turned on itself for
basic survival, these less advanced regions would carry on as before, and
eventually repopulate the planet.

That horrifying theoretical massive die-out is not "they."  Rather, the
correct pronoun is "we." 

spike



From pharos at gmail.com  Wed Apr 22 19:10:17 2015
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2015 20:10:17 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Bees are clever!
In-Reply-To: <3724791069-23734@secure.ericade.net>
References: <CAJ4XrpVdg2Udp-xGLOv8HXsyFEY+z2GWG9QjVu5K7isv65htQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <3724791069-23734@secure.ericade.net>
Message-ID: <CAL_armjwpAPoOap0Ec1wXZnNW_zPnZMOV=+0G+0OckMxnXUTJg@mail.gmail.com>

On 21 April 2015 at 23:13, Anders Sandberg wrote:
> I have another new favourite smart arthropod, the Portia spiders.
>
> They hunt other spiders and it looks like they actually out-think them.
> Using 600,000 neurons, 60% of a bee.
> http://www.dichotomistic.com/mind_readings_spider%20minds.html
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portia_(genus)
> http://www.rifters.com/real/2009/01/iterating-towards-bethlehem.html
>


The article on bee cognition made a passing reference to sea slugs
'who don't even have a brain'.  Hmmm, I thought, I'd better check that
out.

So -
The star of the neuroscience research lab is the species of sea snail
known as Aplysia californica. The mollusk has contributed a lot to our
understanding of learning and memory
The sea slug has about 10,000 neurons that control movement, memory
and learning.
(And it has won a Nobel Prize).

Quote:
The marine slug has a relatively simple nervous system, with about
10,000 large neurons that can be easily identified, compared with
about 100 billion neurons in humans. Even so, the animal is capable of
learning and its brain cells communicate in ways identical to human
neuron-to-neuron messaging.

Like a meticulously-crafted spider web, most neurons sport thousands
of strands that connect to other neurons. To journey between certain
neurons, a signal must flow along the correct strands and
intersections. Similarly, to store a memory that pathway, called a
synapse, must be strengthened.

In past studies, scientists have found that once the route-map gets
made, the sea slug marks the synapses connecting the relevant neurons.
Next time the slug gets pinched, a certain protein gets sent out to
all the synapses in a neuron. When the protein reaches a marked
synapse, it triggers other molecules there to produce new proteins
that strengthen the neuron-to-neuron connection.
-----------

So please don't mock the humble sea snail!   :)

BillK


From anders at aleph.se  Wed Apr 22 20:56:54 2015
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2015 22:56:54 +0200
Subject: [ExI] introduction to extropy
In-Reply-To: <9707D5A9-384D-4206-A2F2-1B5C0C516DB6@leijuvakaupunki.fi>
Message-ID: <3806732331-14880@secure.ericade.net>


Hi Kuudes!


kuudes <kuudes at leijuvakaupunki.fi> , 22/4/2015 5:47 PM:

What is extropy? I think I have run into something, which relates to a system having capability of creating entropy in future, and also I have read the Wissner-Gross paper (dspace.mit.edu/openaccess-disseminate/1721.1/79750) on entropic force. In general, I feel somewhat confused on these concepts. What should I read and is it feasible for me to try to learn these things? Are these concepts related to the area of the interest of this list or some general community?

I don't think so, at least directly. These papers are playing with entropic forces that generate useful "smart" behaviour because the setup is somewhat particular.


I think the original extropy idea, as something that resists or reduces entropy while increasing complexity, is more akin to open non-equilibrium thermodynamic systems. Think of Chaissons entropy rate density (http://www.informationphilosopher.com/solutions/scientists/chaisson/) or the various attempts in the 90s to formulate a theory of complex, adaptive systems. We see how biological evolution, by dissipating energy and increasing external entropy, can produce not just ordered and self-maintaining systems (autopoiesis), but also a wide diversity of systems that seem to accumulate complexity or even invent new ways of evolving.?



In the end extropy is more of a metaphor than something measurable or actual. But there may be interesting possibilities when one takes it seriously as a thing for a while.?

Anders Sandberg, Future of Humanity Institute Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Thu Apr 23 00:10:50 2015
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2015 17:10:50 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Portia Spider hunting Spiders on 600K neurons - Was: Bees
 are clever!
In-Reply-To: <CACwq0OfXHwPM2SO+Ntb_5VZzc8nR_y34OGWAyPdgtrTk6nYmbQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACwq0OfXHwPM2SO+Ntb_5VZzc8nR_y34OGWAyPdgtrTk6nYmbQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy2fXFWJK=ZkgE2-GseGKC43s1qW8cd=PakLXVuqSvq4_w@mail.gmail.com>

Perhaps along with dolphins, chimps, gorillas, cats, dogs, ravens, big
parrots, ferrets, iguanas, eagles, octopi, whales, and racoons, we should
one day genetically uplift Portia?  Well, not to human level intelligence
or size, but enough that they have a great deal more to work with....

I will have to add "Starfish" to my reading list!


John

On Wed, Apr 22, 2015 at 10:53 AM, Claus Bornich <clausb at gmail.com> wrote:

>
> Anders Sandberg  wrote:
>
>> I have another new favourite smart arthropod, the Portia spiders.?
>> http://www.dichotomistic.com/mind_readings_spider%20minds.html
>>
>
> Thank you for the link, enjoyed reading that. I too stumbled upon the
> Portia in "Echopraxia". Anyone interested might find it easier to look for
> "Firefall" which is Blindsight and Echopraxia in one volume.
>
> I first discovered Peter Watts with the excellent, but very dark and
> menacing, Starfish. Since then my awe for his work has only grown.
> Blindsight is crammed with great and well researched ideas, unusual highly
> transhuman characters (posthuman even?), clever plot and a great take on
> consciousness and intelligence. Echopraxia was a bit less convincing in
> parts, but still a good read with wonderfully researched ideas.
>
> That the Portia seems to be able to build up a complicated path to its
> target by sequentially scanning the landscape for up to an hour and then
> spend as long traveling the complicated route without even seeing the
> target, and all on just 600K neurons is fantastic.
>
> Claus
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Thu Apr 23 23:58:13 2015
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2015 19:58:13 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Narrow ecological niches Re: Portia Spider hunting Spiders on
 600K neurons - Was: Bees are clever!
Message-ID: <CAAc1gFjddZ4R2e9WYnfFOOJXwWpjWmt4TR4ToEiLR0Qq7p_LBQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 22, 2015 at 8:10 PM, John Grigg <possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Perhaps along with dolphins, chimps, gorillas, cats, dogs, ravens, big
> parrots, ferrets, iguanas, eagles, octopi, whales, and racoons, we should
> one day genetically uplift Portia?  Well, not to human level intelligence
> or size, but enough that they have a great deal more to work with....
>

### There is a general observation in ecology that the presence of two
non-interbreeding populations in the same ecological niche is an unstable
situation, always leading to the extinction of one of the populations.

I have the impression that general intelligence in a fitness-maximizing
self-replicator creates its own niche and all such replicators inhabit it.
That is to say, any group of interbreeding fitness-maximizing replicators
with general intelligence is a direct competitor of all other such groups
that are reproductively separate from it.

This would imply that you cannot have multiple intelligent
fitness-maximizing species stably cohabiting a planet, except in unusual
circumstances (e.g. singleton AI in overall control). While four thousand
species of spiders may live side by side, each specialized to its own niche
and therefore more or less stably reproducing without one wiping out all
others, the case with general intelligence may be radically different. A
dumb spider cannot substitute for another dumb spider, since each one has a
narrow set of non-overlapping adaptations, say, one excels at eating green
flies, the other shines in killing blue flies. A spider with general
intelligence can invent devices (including cognitive augmentations) that
let it eat all comers - blue flies, green flies, humans...

I would not uplift anything. I would exterminate with prejudice any
fitness-maximizing creature that comes close to human intelligence. All
replicators of sufficiently dangerous intelligence would have to be
constructed so as to remove fitness-maximizing behavior from their goal
system. It's not an accident that the mind of the Greg Egan's polis
generated citizens uninterested in their fitness.

And definitely, no superintelligent spiders, please.

Rafal
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From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Fri Apr 24 03:41:15 2015
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2015 23:41:15 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Narrow ecological niches Re: Portia Spider hunting
 Spiders on 600K neurons - Was: Bees are clever!
In-Reply-To: <C577B1AB-8E77-4544-BE6E-BD0EB9958D45@gmu.edu>
References: <CAAc1gFjddZ4R2e9WYnfFOOJXwWpjWmt4TR4ToEiLR0Qq7p_LBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <C577B1AB-8E77-4544-BE6E-BD0EB9958D45@gmu.edu>
Message-ID: <CAAc1gFgJVUsdrxvjtswtXwfMv=_CpUZL8eQwXdVAqJf_CvS_Gw@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 23, 2015 at 8:26 PM, Robin D Hanson <rhanson at gmu.edu> wrote:

>  On Apr 23, 2015, at 7:58 PM, Rafal Smigrodzki <rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>   ### There is a general observation in ecology that the presence of two
> non-interbreeding populations in the same ecological niche is an unstable
> situation, always leading to the extinction of one of the populations.
>
>  I have the impression that general intelligence in a fitness-maximizing
> self-replicator creates its own niche and all such replicators inhabit it.
> That is to say, any group of interbreeding fitness-maximizing replicators
> with general intelligence is a direct competitor of all other such groups
> that are reproductively separate from it.
>
>
>  But why is there only one niche in this case? The biological world seems
> to have a vast number of niches, and modern economies also seem to have a
> great many niches. Why is this illusory?
>

### As noted, non-intelligent species are specialized, so multiple niches
exist. The notion of a niche in human economies is a bit different from the
ecological niche - human specializations are less dependent on genetic
differences. An individual orb-weaving spider might only eat flying
insects, or die (under selective pressure its species can evolve to feed on
something else but his is a different story). A individual lawyer could
have been a doctor or a plumber but for the relative demand and supply of
various types of labor. This is not to deny that genetically determined
individual human skills have an impact on chosen occupations, especially on
fringes of the distribution that may require unusual levels of intelligence
or other characteristics - however, humans overall tend be able to better
substitute for each other, thanks to general intelligence, than
non-intelligent replicators.

The ability to substitute into multiple economic niches means that more fit
humans can overtake a population, sometimes very quickly. Human genomes
show evidence of multiple selective sweeps where small initial seed
populations massively increase in numbers and eliminate competing groups,
sometimes with little interbreeding. Introducing a non-human
fitness-maximizing intelligent species could result in the same type of
population sweep.

Humans under current ecological conditions are less fitness-maximizing than
under natural conditions of Malthusian equilibrium - which may be one of
the reasons why large-scale conflict has largely abated for now.

Rafa?
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From tara at taramayastales.com  Fri Apr 24 17:24:55 2015
From: tara at taramayastales.com (Tara Maya)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2015 10:24:55 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Narrow ecological niches Re: Portia Spider hunting
	Spiders on 600K neurons - Was: Bees are clever!
In-Reply-To: <CAAc1gFgJVUsdrxvjtswtXwfMv=_CpUZL8eQwXdVAqJf_CvS_Gw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAc1gFjddZ4R2e9WYnfFOOJXwWpjWmt4TR4ToEiLR0Qq7p_LBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <C577B1AB-8E77-4544-BE6E-BD0EB9958D45@gmu.edu>
 <CAAc1gFgJVUsdrxvjtswtXwfMv=_CpUZL8eQwXdVAqJf_CvS_Gw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2AE14E74-3957-4B2F-B9C7-E2A7F88627BC@taramayastales.com>


> On Apr 23, 2015, at 8:41 PM, Rafal Smigrodzki <rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> I have the impression that general intelligence in a fitness-maximizing self-replicator creates its own niche and all such replicators inhabit it. That is to say, any group of interbreeding fitness-maximizing replicators with general intelligence is a direct competitor of all other such groups that are reproductively separate from it.
> 
> But why is there only one niche in this case? The biological world seems to have a vast number of niches, and modern economies also seem to have a great many niches. Why is this illusory? 
> 
> ### As noted, non-intelligent species are specialized, so multiple niches exist. The notion of a niche in human economies is a bit different from the ecological niche - human specializations are less dependent on genetic differences. An individual orb-weaving spider might only eat flying insects, or die (under selective pressure its species can evolve to feed on something else but his is a different story). A individual lawyer could have been a doctor or a plumber but for the relative demand and supply of various types of labor. This is not to deny that genetically determined individual human skills have an impact on chosen occupations, especially on fringes of the distribution that may require unusual levels of intelligence or other characteristics - however, humans overall tend be able to better substitute for each other, thanks to general intelligence, than non-intelligent replicators.
> 
> The ability to substitute into multiple economic niches means that more fit humans can overtake a population, sometimes very quickly. Human genomes show evidence of multiple selective sweeps where small initial seed populations massively increase in numbers and eliminate competing groups, sometimes with little interbreeding. Introducing a non-human fitness-maximizing intelligent species could result in the same type of population sweep. 
> 
> Humans under current ecological conditions are less fitness-maximizing than under natural conditions of Malthusian equilibrium - which may be one of the reasons why large-scale conflict has largely abated for now.
> 
> Rafa?


Top predators also require larger ecological space (measured by diversity as well as acreage), with some top predators dominating almost an entire continent by themselves. It may be that humans (or any equally sentient and social beings) require so much trophic space that only multiple planets will be enough to allow for multiple species to co-exist.

The other alternative (not necessarily mutually exclusive) would be an expansion of the biodiversity of the planet. In general, despite 5-7 mass extinction events, the biodiversity of Earth has risen dramatically since life began 5 billion years ago, and expansion has always been accompanied by more and more trophic levels and specialized niches.

Humans are the cause of the latest extinction event, but that is no reason we could not also be the cause of the latest explosion in biodiversity. 


Tara Maya
Blog <http://taramayastales.blogspot.com/>  |  Twitter <https://twitter.com/taramayastales>  |  Facebook <http://www.facebook.com/pages/The-Unfinished-Song-Epic-Fantasy/310271375658211?ref=hl>  |  Amazon <http://www.amazon.com/Tara-Maya/e/B004HAI038/ref=sr_tc_2_0?qid=1349796143&sr=8-2-ent>  |  Goodreads <http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/2951879.Tara_Maya>


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From rhanson at gmu.edu  Fri Apr 24 00:26:13 2015
From: rhanson at gmu.edu (Robin D Hanson)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2015 00:26:13 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Narrow ecological niches Re: Portia Spider hunting
 Spiders on 600K neurons - Was: Bees are clever!
In-Reply-To: <CAAc1gFjddZ4R2e9WYnfFOOJXwWpjWmt4TR4ToEiLR0Qq7p_LBQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAc1gFjddZ4R2e9WYnfFOOJXwWpjWmt4TR4ToEiLR0Qq7p_LBQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C577B1AB-8E77-4544-BE6E-BD0EB9958D45@gmu.edu>

On Apr 23, 2015, at 7:58 PM, Rafal Smigrodzki <rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com<mailto:rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com>> wrote:
### There is a general observation in ecology that the presence of two non-interbreeding populations in the same ecological niche is an unstable situation, always leading to the extinction of one of the populations.

I have the impression that general intelligence in a fitness-maximizing self-replicator creates its own niche and all such replicators inhabit it. That is to say, any group of interbreeding fitness-maximizing replicators with general intelligence is a direct competitor of all other such groups that are reproductively separate from it.

But why is there only one niche in this case? The biological world seems to have a vast number of niches, and modern economies also seem to have a great many niches. Why is this illusory?

Robin Hanson  http://hanson.gmu.edu
Res. Assoc., Future of Humanity Inst., Oxford Univ.
Assoc. Professor, George Mason University
Chief Scientist, Consensus Point
MSN 1D3, Carow Hall, Fairfax VA 22030
703-993-2326 FAX: 703-993-2323



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From rhanson at gmu.edu  Fri Apr 24 13:42:09 2015
From: rhanson at gmu.edu (Robin D Hanson)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2015 13:42:09 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Narrow ecological niches Re: Portia Spider hunting
 Spiders on 600K neurons - Was: Bees are clever!
In-Reply-To: <CAAc1gFgJVUsdrxvjtswtXwfMv=_CpUZL8eQwXdVAqJf_CvS_Gw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAc1gFjddZ4R2e9WYnfFOOJXwWpjWmt4TR4ToEiLR0Qq7p_LBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <C577B1AB-8E77-4544-BE6E-BD0EB9958D45@gmu.edu>
 <CAAc1gFgJVUsdrxvjtswtXwfMv=_CpUZL8eQwXdVAqJf_CvS_Gw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0E0EEFD2-38A7-4984-B242-205DBD16103D@gmu.edu>

On Apr 23, 2015, at 11:41 PM, Rafal Smigrodzki <rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com<mailto:rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com>> wrote:
I have the impression that general intelligence in a fitness-maximizing self-replicator creates its own niche and all such replicators inhabit it. That is to say, any group of interbreeding fitness-maximizing replicators with general intelligence is a direct competitor of all other such groups that are reproductively separate from it.

But why is there only one niche in this case? The biological world seems to have a vast number of niches, and modern economies also seem to have a great many niches. Why is this illusory?

### As noted, non-intelligent species are specialized, so multiple niches exist. The notion of a niche in human economies is a bit different from the ecological niche - human specializations are less dependent on genetic differences. ... A individual lawyer could have been a doctor or a plumber but for the relative demand and supply of various types of labor. This is not to deny that genetically determined individual human skills have an impact on chosen occupations, especially on fringes of the distribution that may require unusual levels of intelligence or other characteristics - however, humans overall tend be able to better substitute for each other, thanks to general intelligence, than non-intelligent replicators.

The first species to pioneer a new big innovation may quickly fill a large environment, and it may seem to be ?general? with respect to that new environment. But with time its descendants may fragment into many species as different ones specialize in different parts of the niche.  Humans have pioneered some big innovations, and no other known animal comes close for now, but there?s no reason that the descendants of humans can?t fragment into many versions that specialize in different areas. If humans retained their methods of reproduction for a long time, that is probably would would happen. The main reason for doubt is big upcoming changes in how mind and body designs are encoded and changed.

Robin Hanson  http://hanson.gmu.edu
Res. Assoc., Future of Humanity Inst., Oxford Univ.
Assoc. Professor, George Mason University
Chief Scientist, Consensus Point
MSN 1D3, Carow Hall, Fairfax VA 22030
703-993-2326 FAX: 703-993-2323



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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sat Apr 25 15:17:25 2015
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2015 10:17:25 -0500
Subject: [ExI] suicide pilots
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYj-dwCr-Zk-w3xSAX+OxaEhd7_2WF0fTCPfYyc_g2Piw@mail.gmail.com>

?Modern aircraft are increasingly connected to the Internet,? notes a U.S.
Government Accountability Office report. ?This interconnectedness can
potentially provide unauthorized remote access to aircraft avionics
systems.?

Why not monitor all planes and when one is screeching towards the earth,
just take remote control of it and prevent pilots from crashing?
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From spike66 at att.net  Sat Apr 25 15:58:53 2015
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2015 08:58:53 -0700
Subject: [ExI] suicide pilots
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYj-dwCr-Zk-w3xSAX+OxaEhd7_2WF0fTCPfYyc_g2Piw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYj-dwCr-Zk-w3xSAX+OxaEhd7_2WF0fTCPfYyc_g2Piw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00ad01d07f70$bd0328f0$37097ad0$@att.net>

 

 

From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace
Sent: Saturday, April 25, 2015 8:17 AM
To: ExI chat list
Subject: [ExI] suicide pilots

 

>??Modern aircraft are increasingly connected to the Internet,? notes a U.S. Government Accountability Office report. ?This interconnectedness can potentially provide unauthorized remote access to aircraft avionics systems.?

>?Why not monitor all planes and when one is screeching towards the earth, just take remote control of it and prevent pilots from crashing?

 

 

 

The military already does this, but it doesn?t need to communicate with the ground.  The technology is called ACFIT for Anti-Controlled-Flight-Into-Terrain.  If the plane is plummeting, it decides when to assume the pilot has perished or lost consciousness, and takes control of itself, preventing its violent contact with the planet.  Every airliner has a ground proximity warning, that urgent manly voice often heard in the last seconds on the voice cockpit recordings urging ?Pull up!  Pull up!?  Most airliner controls are already fly-by-wire.  If the plane knows to advise the pilot to pull up, the plane can be enabled to pull up.

 

spike

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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sat Apr 25 16:15:18 2015
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2015 11:15:18 -0500
Subject: [ExI] suicide pilots
In-Reply-To: <00ad01d07f70$bd0328f0$37097ad0$@att.net>
References: <CAO+xQEYj-dwCr-Zk-w3xSAX+OxaEhd7_2WF0fTCPfYyc_g2Piw@mail.gmail.com>
 <00ad01d07f70$bd0328f0$37097ad0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYVurwwRnXQLj7jn3t55xOv_k-qGDp09qF+SV3ayv4Xkw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Apr 25, 2015 at 10:58 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *From:* extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] *On
> Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace
> *Sent:* Saturday, April 25, 2015 8:17 AM
> *To:* ExI chat list
> *Subject:* [ExI] suicide pilots
>
>
>
> >??Modern aircraft are increasingly connected to the Internet,? notes a
> U.S. Government Accountability Office report. ?This interconnectedness can
> potentially provide unauthorized remote access to aircraft avionics
> systems.?
>
> >?Why not monitor all planes and when one is screeching towards the
> earth, just take remote control of it and prevent pilots from crashing?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> The military already does this, but it doesn?t need to communicate with
> the ground.  The technology is called ACFIT for
> Anti-Controlled-Flight-Into-Terrain.  If the plane is plummeting, it
> decides when to assume the pilot has perished or lost consciousness, and
> takes control of itself, preventing its violent contact with the planet.
> Every airliner has a ground proximity warning, that urgent manly voice
> often heard in the last seconds on the voice cockpit recordings urging
> ?Pull up!  Pull up!?  Most airliner controls are already fly-by-wire.  If
> the plane knows to advise the pilot to pull up, the plane can be enabled to
> pull up.
>
>
>
> spike
>

?Well then, it appears that all they need to do is to enable the ground
computer to seize control of the plane and lock the pilots out- shouting at
them apparently did not work?


>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Sat Apr 25 16:15:54 2015
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2015 09:15:54 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Evolutionary rules was Narrow ecological niches
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB5HAVPpvp+jO4wkOEXKXBtNSkoeTf_k5ibkKFD7ho7yfQ@mail.gmail.com>

It is worth keeping in mind general evolutionary principles.

For example, why are people not 2 feet tall or 8 feet?  A few are so
it lies within the possible.

The short answer is that being either very tall or very short makes
reproductive success less likely.  If there was an advantage away from
the current mean, relative reproductive success would rapidly shift
the mean to where those above and those below the mean suffered
reduced success to the same degree.

The same applies to every measurable feature of every animal I can
think of.  That includes intelligence in humans.  It is obvious that
those below some level of intelligence can't care for children and
have poor reproductive success.  But it is also clear that the top end
of the scale must (on average) suffer reduced reproductive success as
well.

Of course, as Robin points out, the above situation can be expected to change.

Keith


From hibbert at mydruthers.com  Sat Apr 25 16:36:51 2015
From: hibbert at mydruthers.com (Chris Hibbert)
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2015 09:36:51 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Narrow ecological niches
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1429963202.14782.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.1.1429963202.14782.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <553BC2A3.1070805@mydruthers.com>

On 4/25/15 5:00 AM, extropy-chat-request at lists.extropy.org wrote:
> I have the impression that general intelligence in a
> fitness-maximizing self-replicator creates its own niche and all such
> replicators inhabit it. That is to say, any group of interbreeding
> fitness-maximizing replicators with general intelligence is a direct
> competitor of all other such groups that are reproductively separate
> from it.
>
> But why is there only one niche in this case? The biological world
> seems to have a vast number of niches, and modern economies also seem
> to have a great many niches. Why is this illusory?

As much as we speak of economies as being spaces of competition, there's 
also a lot of cooperation going on. One thing that definitely happens in 
an economy is that as one competitor specializes and gets better in the 
role it has picked for itself, it can create niches for others to 
inhabit. Biology has some cooperation, but a lot less, since there's no 
notion like property rights that can lead to mutually beneficial trade.

There's also an enormous difference between an economy with its 
competition between individuals, and ecology, in which (to the observers 
at least) it looks like a competition between species consisting of 
rather uniform individuals.

So intelligent individuals have a different kind of 
competition/cooperation. In the same way that there are many economic 
niches for participants in the present economy, it doesn't seem 
impossible that other kinds of intelligences might create their own 
niches and participate in the economy as well. The distinction seems to 
be whether the interactions are economic or biological. To me, that 
argues for finding a way to ensure that AGI gains more from   trade than 
it could get from predation. As long as that starts out the case, the 
AGI will develop its cooperation skills, and keep finding ways to enrich 
itself and improve its ability to reach its goals peacefully that way 
rather than eliminating agents that might turn out to be customers and 
suppliers.

Chris
-- 
All sensory cells [in all animals] have in common the presence of
... cilia [with a constant] structure.  It provides a strong
argument for common ancestry.  The common ancestor ... was a
spirochete bacterium.
   --Lynn Margulis (http://edge.org/q2005/q05_7.html#margulis)

Chris Hibbert
hibbert at mydruthers.com
http://mydruthers.com



From spike66 at att.net  Sat Apr 25 17:00:40 2015
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2015 10:00:40 -0700
Subject: [ExI] dna day
Message-ID: <010d01d07f79$5e8306c0$1b891440$@att.net>

 

25 April is DNA day.  On 25 April 1953, Crick and Watson announced the
double helix structure of DNA partially based on the work of Rosalind
Franklin's X ray diffraction (no I do not want to debate who scooped whom.)

 

The following is a useful timeline, cleverly disguised as an advertisement
for 23andMe:

 

http://visual.ly/human-genetics-highlights

 

The database in 23andMe has surpassed 900k users, but I have noticed that
Ancestry.com's DNA database is growing at an average rate of 2 percent per
week, so Ancestry.com at that rate will be in about September where 23andMe
is now.  Ancestry.com gives you more information in some ways, since the FDA
stepped in and restricted 23andMe.

 

Details available on request.

 

spike

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From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Sun Apr 26 03:14:28 2015
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2015 23:14:28 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Evolutionary rules was Narrow ecological niches
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB5HAVPpvp+jO4wkOEXKXBtNSkoeTf_k5ibkKFD7ho7yfQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB5HAVPpvp+jO4wkOEXKXBtNSkoeTf_k5ibkKFD7ho7yfQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAAc1gFjDA=H49j9jVPBKHGBmJfcQBmj=Ja8bm8rQe5Hcj6kQCw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Apr 25, 2015 at 12:15 PM, Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com>
wrote:

> It is worth keeping in mind general evolutionary principles.
>
> For example, why are people not 2 feet tall or 8 feet?  A few are so
> it lies within the possible.
>
> The short answer is that being either very tall or very short makes
> reproductive success less likely.  If there was an advantage away from
> the current mean, relative reproductive success would rapidly shift
> the mean to where those above and those below the mean suffered
> reduced success to the same degree.
>
> The same applies to every measurable feature of every animal I can
> think of.  That includes intelligence in humans.  It is obvious that
> those below some level of intelligence can't care for children and
> have poor reproductive success.  But it is also clear that the top end
> of the scale must (on average) suffer reduced reproductive success as
> well.


### This assumes that evolution is driven solely by selective pressures on
the frequency of alleles - however, allele frequencies are also impacted by
mutations, and in the case of highly polygenic phenotypes (like
intelligence), the mutational pressures are of paramount importance.

A 4 sigma jump in height in a human can be achieved with a single mutation,
and the phenotype determined by this mutation will then be selected for or
against, with selective pressures determining its spread or disappearance.
On the other hand, a 4 sigma increase intelligence may require the absence
of deleterious mutations in a thousand genes. In this situation, even if
the phenotype is very fit, the offspring may not be as intelligent, simply
because most of them would have a mutation in at least some of the genes.

The increase in Ashkenazi intelligence probably took hundreds of years of
severe selective pressure to achieve a 1 sigma change in verbal IQ. Today a
1 sigma advantage in IQ over average doesn't seem to translate into
significant reproductive success but it was a large boost back when being
poor meant dying childless rather than breeding on welfare. I have no
reason to believe that very high intelligence entails any significant
physiological negative tradeoffs. In fact, the smartest humans tend to be
also the healthiest in general and most socially adept. But it does seem
that being highly intelligent requires a lot of moving parts to work
flawlessly, and thus the entropic forces arrayed against intelligence are
powerful.

Once we transition to mutation-resistant substrates, new vistas for high
intelligence will open.

Rafa?
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From atymes at gmail.com  Sun Apr 26 06:13:53 2015
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2015 23:13:53 -0700
Subject: [ExI] suicide pilots
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYj-dwCr-Zk-w3xSAX+OxaEhd7_2WF0fTCPfYyc_g2Piw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYj-dwCr-Zk-w3xSAX+OxaEhd7_2WF0fTCPfYyc_g2Piw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNRFuw=GQDVyyVeyUd5VbAiqPZGSRvpba9xyvu3sP1PbsA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Apr 25, 2015 at 8:17 AM, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
wrote:

> ?Modern aircraft are increasingly connected to the Internet,? notes a U.S.
> Government Accountability Office report. ?This interconnectedness can
> potentially provide unauthorized remote access to aircraft avionics
> systems.?
>
> Why not monitor all planes and when one is screeching towards the earth,
> just take remote control of it and prevent pilots from crashing?
>

If you can tell a plane what to do remotely, you can crash it remotely.

The military exception Spike notes is not remote.  Also the military has,
on average, better security than the typical airline.
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From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Sun Apr 26 10:47:59 2015
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2015 06:47:59 -0400
Subject: [ExI] (no subject)
Message-ID: <CAAc1gFgHt=r+WxSLvN5OSCYSb5_tThnmSMq2gTVOw6k8qCw__A@mail.gmail.com>

Try jenkem!
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From anders at aleph.se  Sun Apr 26 11:27:09 2015
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2015 13:27:09 +0200
Subject: [ExI] dna day
In-Reply-To: <010d01d07f79$5e8306c0$1b891440$@att.net>
Message-ID: <4118350977-2513@secure.ericade.net>


spike <spike66 at att.net> , 25/4/2015 7:15 PM:



?
25 April is DNA day.? On 25 April 1953, Crick and Watson announced the double helix structure of DNA partially based on the work of Rosalind Franklin?s X ray diffraction (no I do not want to debate who scooped whom.)


I took this picture when I was in Cambridge after having realized just what pub I had had my post-conference cider in: https://flic.kr/p/rnJir6


However, the plaque gives another date:?https://flic.kr/p/s1d35M


In Gonville and Caius College, Crick is commemorated by one of the stained glass windows:?https://flic.kr/p/5TY3gb




Anders Sandberg, Future of Humanity Institute Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University

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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sun Apr 26 16:09:59 2015
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2015 11:09:59 -0500
Subject: [ExI] suicide pilots
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNRFuw=GQDVyyVeyUd5VbAiqPZGSRvpba9xyvu3sP1PbsA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYj-dwCr-Zk-w3xSAX+OxaEhd7_2WF0fTCPfYyc_g2Piw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRFuw=GQDVyyVeyUd5VbAiqPZGSRvpba9xyvu3sP1PbsA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEaujNC3+jecgwpFZUx136vku4E=k6LmrNR1XRQJa1s=KQ@mail.gmail.com>

> On Sat, Apr 25, 2015 at 8:17 AM, William Flynn Wallace <
> foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> ?Modern aircraft are increasingly connected to the Internet,? notes a
>> U.S. Government Accountability Office report. ?This interconnectedness can
>> potentially provide unauthorized remote access to aircraft avionics
>> systems.?
>>
>> Why not monitor all planes and when one is screeching towards the earth,
>> just take remote control of it and prevent pilots from crashing?
>>
>
> If you can tell a plane what to do remotely, you can crash it remotely.
>
> The military exception Spike notes is not remote.  Also the military has,
> on average, better security than the typical airline.
>
> ?Well, duh, of course you can down a plane that way.

Isn't everyone trying to hack into everything, military or not?
Satellites, missiles, drones and more I assume.  I hope we can hack into
drones when they are used against us, as they inevitably will be.

If the military can have a secure system for , say, satellites, why can't
the airlines?  Will we never have a secure system of anything?  Is that our
future??


> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From atymes at gmail.com  Sun Apr 26 16:24:37 2015
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2015 09:24:37 -0700
Subject: [ExI] suicide pilots
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEaujNC3+jecgwpFZUx136vku4E=k6LmrNR1XRQJa1s=KQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYj-dwCr-Zk-w3xSAX+OxaEhd7_2WF0fTCPfYyc_g2Piw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRFuw=GQDVyyVeyUd5VbAiqPZGSRvpba9xyvu3sP1PbsA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEaujNC3+jecgwpFZUx136vku4E=k6LmrNR1XRQJa1s=KQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNTtb9aRuc9zAwNAHVUsArAv+OLfeeprCkWk40E+Tmvbhg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Apr 26, 2015 at 9:09 AM, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
wrote:

>
> I hope we can hack into drones when they are used against us, as they
>> inevitably will be.
>>
>
A simpler solution for defense is to jam the signal, and hope the drone
doesn't have enough onboard AI to finish the mission.  It may be able to
autopilot without signal, but shooting it down should be simpler.  (At
least until there's good enough AI that it almost doesn't need a human
controller.)


> If the military can have a secure system for , say, satellites, why can't
>> the airlines?  Will we never have a secure system of anything?  Is that our
>> future??
>>
>
The military has bigger budgets and a general environment predisposed
toward security rather than convenience and cheapness.  "Make as much money
as you can" as a primary mission means not implementing levels of security
in excess of what would be profitable.
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From spike66 at att.net  Sun Apr 26 16:24:39 2015
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2015 09:24:39 -0700
Subject: [ExI] suicide pilots
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEaujNC3+jecgwpFZUx136vku4E=k6LmrNR1XRQJa1s=KQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYj-dwCr-Zk-w3xSAX+OxaEhd7_2WF0fTCPfYyc_g2Piw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRFuw=GQDVyyVeyUd5VbAiqPZGSRvpba9xyvu3sP1PbsA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEaujNC3+jecgwpFZUx136vku4E=k6LmrNR1XRQJa1s=KQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <016801d0803d$81ca65f0$855f31d0$@att.net>

 

 

From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace
?   

>?Isn't everyone trying to hack into everything, military or not?  Satellites, missiles, drones and more I assume.  I hope we can hack into drones when they are used against us, as they inevitably will be.

>?If the military can have a secure system for , say, satellites, why can't the airlines?  Will we never have a secure system of anything?  Is that our future??

 

 

BillW, there is no need for an external link.  The ACFIT tech can be onboard, where it belongs, with no ground or satellite communications necessary or desired.  The military already knows how to make a plane decide if the pilot is crazy, dead or disabled, then it goes and lands itself, even assuming some control-surface damage.  Airliners are easier to land than fighter jets, and one would presume it undamaged and un-battle-scarred.

 

That a plane can take off, navigate and land without human intervention was demonstrated fifty years ago with the Lockheed L1011 according to company lore.  

 

Your original point is taken, and to me is obvious: airliners should have ACFIT technology on board, but not external links of any kind.  The ACFIT must be given the authority to overrule the pilots if they are doing something crazy.  It?s a scary step, but at some point the silicon computer is less likely to commit mass murder than meat computer.

 

spike

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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Sun Apr 26 16:49:41 2015
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2015 12:49:41 -0400
Subject: [ExI] suicide pilots
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNTtb9aRuc9zAwNAHVUsArAv+OLfeeprCkWk40E+Tmvbhg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYj-dwCr-Zk-w3xSAX+OxaEhd7_2WF0fTCPfYyc_g2Piw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRFuw=GQDVyyVeyUd5VbAiqPZGSRvpba9xyvu3sP1PbsA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEaujNC3+jecgwpFZUx136vku4E=k6LmrNR1XRQJa1s=KQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNTtb9aRuc9zAwNAHVUsArAv+OLfeeprCkWk40E+Tmvbhg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv1-0DBZnPRSEGr1Q4kQYaFbMJzFAmDYqnPMZrdq13w5pA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Apr 26, 2015 at 12:24 PM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:

> A simpler solution for defense is to jam the signal
>

That would be difficult to do because drone control signals switch
frequencies many times a second and contain lots of redundancy.

  John K Clark
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From protokol2020 at gmail.com  Sun Apr 26 17:25:23 2015
From: protokol2020 at gmail.com (Tomaz Kristan)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2015 19:25:23 +0200
Subject: [ExI] suicide pilots
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv1-0DBZnPRSEGr1Q4kQYaFbMJzFAmDYqnPMZrdq13w5pA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYj-dwCr-Zk-w3xSAX+OxaEhd7_2WF0fTCPfYyc_g2Piw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRFuw=GQDVyyVeyUd5VbAiqPZGSRvpba9xyvu3sP1PbsA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEaujNC3+jecgwpFZUx136vku4E=k6LmrNR1XRQJa1s=KQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNTtb9aRuc9zAwNAHVUsArAv+OLfeeprCkWk40E+Tmvbhg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1-0DBZnPRSEGr1Q4kQYaFbMJzFAmDYqnPMZrdq13w5pA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALMrAFSg9U5uGHaj-kFL-XhM96oB4eYvkf6uSTZ1tcke16WvcA@mail.gmail.com>

Get rid of human pilots all together, as soon as possible. Especially
because you can charge the cabin seats even much more than those in the
first class.

On Sun, Apr 26, 2015 at 6:49 PM, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Sun, Apr 26, 2015 at 12:24 PM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > A simpler solution for defense is to jam the signal
>>
>
> That would be difficult to do because drone control signals switch
> frequencies many times a second and contain lots of redundancy.
>
>   John K Clark
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>


-- 
https://protokol2020.wordpress.com/
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From hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu  Sun Apr 26 14:37:26 2015
From: hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu (Henry Rivera)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2015 10:37:26 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Dementia
Message-ID: <8291904A-58C0-4D40-9E11-C742BCADB618@alumni.virginia.edu>

This is mainly for Spike, but I sent it to the group because it's been a topic before. 

There is a recent study addressing the etiology of the disease:
http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/alzheimers-breakthrough-scientists-may-have-found-potential-cause-of-the-disease-in-the-behaviour-of-immune-cells--giving-new-hope-to-millions-10176652.html

Also, did you see CNN's Weed 3 (which got stellar ratings btw) that addressed cannabinoids as a promising intervention: 
http://youtu.be/QnVHxOPEbqc

-Henry
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From spike66 at att.net  Sun Apr 26 21:14:38 2015
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2015 14:14:38 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Dementia
In-Reply-To: <8291904A-58C0-4D40-9E11-C742BCADB618@alumni.virginia.edu>
References: <8291904A-58C0-4D40-9E11-C742BCADB618@alumni.virginia.edu>
Message-ID: <02f501d08066$04039eb0$0c0adc10$@att.net>

 

 

From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Henry Rivera
Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2015 7:37 AM
To: Extropy Chat
Subject: [ExI] Dementia

 

>?This is mainly for Spike, but I sent it to the group because it's been a topic before. 

 

>?There is a recent study addressing the etiology of the disease:

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/alzheimers-breakthrough-scientists-may-have-found-potential-cause-of-the-disease-in-the-behaviour-of-immune-cells--giving-new-hope-to-millions-10176652.html

 

>?Also, did you see CNN's Weed 3 (which got stellar ratings btw) that addressed cannabinoids as a promising intervention: 

http://youtu.be/QnVHxOPEbqc

 

>?-Henry

 

 

 

 

Hi Henry, thanks.

 

Although the afflicted family member has perished, I still follow the progress.  There seems to be a growing consensus in the AD community that Alzheimer?s might be an immune system disorder.  The camp that is attacking the beta amyloids directly is gradually diminishing, as the mainstream comes to accept that B-Ams are the symptom rather than the cause.

 

Thanks for the links!

 

spike

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From atymes at gmail.com  Sun Apr 26 21:45:04 2015
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2015 14:45:04 -0700
Subject: [ExI] suicide pilots
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv1-0DBZnPRSEGr1Q4kQYaFbMJzFAmDYqnPMZrdq13w5pA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYj-dwCr-Zk-w3xSAX+OxaEhd7_2WF0fTCPfYyc_g2Piw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRFuw=GQDVyyVeyUd5VbAiqPZGSRvpba9xyvu3sP1PbsA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEaujNC3+jecgwpFZUx136vku4E=k6LmrNR1XRQJa1s=KQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNTtb9aRuc9zAwNAHVUsArAv+OLfeeprCkWk40E+Tmvbhg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1-0DBZnPRSEGr1Q4kQYaFbMJzFAmDYqnPMZrdq13w5pA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNQVSs70pF1-2eZKTGBoKXZ3pCt8bRpka5P847gU9wkNFg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Apr 26, 2015 at 9:49 AM, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sun, Apr 26, 2015 at 12:24 PM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> > A simpler solution for defense is to jam the signal
>>
>
> That would be difficult to do because drone control signals switch
> frequencies many times a second and contain lots of redundancy.
>

"Simpler", not"simple".  ;)

Simpler than hacking a typical military drone command chain, in this case.
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From anders at aleph.se  Sun Apr 26 23:41:37 2015
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2015 01:41:37 +0200
Subject: [ExI] suicide pilots
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEaujNC3+jecgwpFZUx136vku4E=k6LmrNR1XRQJa1s=KQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4161473780-32410@secure.ericade.net>


William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com> , 26/4/2015 6:13 PM:



Isn't everyone trying to hack into everything, military or not?? Satellites, missiles, drones and more I assume.? I hope we can hack into drones when they are used against us, as they inevitably will be.

If the military can have a secure system for , say, satellites, why can't the airlines?? Will we never have a secure system of anything?? Is that our future???

That is actually a very good question.?


Teleoperated surgery looks quite hackable:?http://www.technologyreview.com/view/537001/security-experts-hack-teleoperated-surgical-robot/ but one could argue that what has happened is that the medical tech world are just late in realizing the need of software security. Just like the lab automation world. And credit card terminals:?http://boingboing.net/2015/04/24/credit-card-swipe-machines-hav.html ...and so on.


I think the deep question is whether the attacker will have the advantage, or the defender. A common theory among computer security experts is that it is attacker advantage, in which case we will rarely have secure systems. Sure, it is possible to design provably secure systems, but they are limited, expensive or not as enticing as the open and insecure systems, so the latter will dominate. But the theory is by no means proven (or even provable?)


My own answer is to look at analogies. From one of my papers: "Self-propagating parasitical replicators are common in open-ended information processing systems and perhaps extra common when copying is easy:

? Transposable elements, sequences of DNA that can move or copy themselves, make up a large fraction of eukaryote genomes (55% in humans, 60% in maize (Kidwell 2002)). In addition, there are many other forms of intragenomic conflict where genes have evolved to propagate themselves to the detriment of other genes or their hosts.
? Viruses appear to be the most numerically abundant replicators on Earth (Suttle 2005, Steward et al. 2013). Given that they seem to be about an order of magnitude more numerous than prokaryotes, this means that a randomly encountered genome is ?90% likely to be viral.?
? Parasites can make up a substantial fraction of the biomass in ecosystems (Preston et al. 2013), sometimes even outweighing their hosts (Kuris et al. 2008).?
? More than 75% of email messages are spam, with about 7% containing malware (Microsoft 2013). It may be that the release rate of malicious software exceeds legitimate software (Symantec 2008) (although biased reporting and the difficulty of determining what strains to count separately should make one take the claim with a bit of salt). "


One can also argue that defence budgets has a median of about 2.3% of GDP. Policing budgets are typically about 1% of GDP. We spend 10% of our metabolism on the immune system (and our resting metabolic rate goes up by more several tens of percent when we have an infection - in some case *way* more, like 300% for severe cases).?


Taken together, this suggests that we should expect that outside systems made so brittle or solid that hacking is not possible, there will be enough of it that it warrants using a fairly noticeable fraction of the total utility for defending them.?




Anders Sandberg, Future of Humanity Institute Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Mon Apr 27 01:24:58 2015
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2015 18:24:58 -0700
Subject: [ExI] dna day
In-Reply-To: <4118350977-2513@secure.ericade.net>
References: <010d01d07f79$5e8306c0$1b891440$@att.net>
 <4118350977-2513@secure.ericade.net>
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy3i4FnhR8hW0M3YGbLqPduynQp+jaeTtDVnNUhHnpr8KA@mail.gmail.com>

My good friend Grant Walther wrote a screenplay about Rosalind Franklin.  I
hope one day he can get it produced.  It would be a fitting tribute to her.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosalind_Franklin


John  :  )

On Sun, Apr 26, 2015 at 4:27 AM, Anders Sandberg <anders at aleph.se> wrote:

> spike <spike66 at att.net> , 25/4/2015 7:15 PM:
>
>
>
> 25 April is DNA day.  On 25 April 1953, Crick and Watson announced the
> double helix structure of DNA partially based on the work of Rosalind
> Franklin?s X ray diffraction (no I do not want to debate who scooped whom.)
>
>
> I took this picture when I was in Cambridge after having realized just
> what pub I had had my post-conference cider in: https://flic.kr/p/rnJir6
>
> However, the plaque gives another date: https://flic.kr/p/s1d35M
>
> In Gonville and Caius College, Crick is commemorated by one of the stained
> glass windows: https://flic.kr/p/5TY3gb
>
>
>
> Anders Sandberg, Future of Humanity Institute Philosophy Faculty of Oxford
> University
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From spike66 at att.net  Mon Apr 27 01:37:37 2015
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2015 18:37:37 -0700
Subject: [ExI] goodbye shockley lab
Message-ID: <010401d0808a$c0cdf670$4269e350$@att.net>

 

 

 

Shockley's lab where the transistor was invented has been torn down and
hauled away.  I went by there this morning to do my humble adoration, my
Hail Boole, my Praise Babbage, my prostrate veneration and reverent
genuflections before the cradle of silicon-based life, and found a strip
mall being constructed at the site.

 

This is not merely wrong, it is.

 

 

 



 

 

{8-[

 

spike

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From jasonresch at gmail.com  Sun Apr 26 20:43:14 2015
From: jasonresch at gmail.com (Jason Resch)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2015 15:43:14 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Dementia
In-Reply-To: <8291904A-58C0-4D40-9E11-C742BCADB618@alumni.virginia.edu>
References: <8291904A-58C0-4D40-9E11-C742BCADB618@alumni.virginia.edu>
Message-ID: <CA+BCJUj7p=vXc3LkuvAKD4JH2yrwgCtp0AgsGrsmDbY-ud7e+Q@mail.gmail.com>

I'd highly recommend people read "Grain Brain
<http://www.drperlmutter.com/about/grain-brain-by-david-perlmutter/>" if
they're interested in what really might be behind the sharp rise and
earlier onsets of dementia and Alzheimer's Disease. Good Calories Bad
Calories is also quite illuminating, and shows that many diseases (heart
disease, many cancers, dementia) are based on the high amounts of sugar and
refined carbohydrates in the modern diet. Increasingly, Alzheimer's is
considered a "diabetes of the brain", and is linked to the brain's reduced
capacity to absorb glucose. Fortunately, there are two fuels the brain is
capable of processing, glucose and ketone bodies.  Ketone bodies are
normally only produced during starvation or diets with highly restricted
carbohydrate intake, however, some foods, such as goat milk and coconut oil
contain medium chain triglycerides (MCTs). The liver processes MCTs into
ketone bodies directly. The physician Mary Newport
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=feyydeMFWy4> successfully used coconut oil
to treat her husbands pre-senile dementia and many reviewers on Amazon.com
<http://www.amazon.com/NOW-Foods-100-32-Fluid-Ounces/product-reviews/B0019LRY8A/ref=cm_cr_pr_viewopt_srt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1&sortBy=helpful&reviewerType=all_reviews&formatType=all_formats&filterByStar=all_stars&pageNumber=1>
claim the same.

Jason

On Sun, Apr 26, 2015 at 9:37 AM, Henry Rivera <hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu>
wrote:

> This is mainly for Spike, but I sent it to the group because it's been a
> topic before.
>
> There is a recent study addressing the etiology of the disease:
>
> http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/alzheimers-breakthrough-scientists-may-have-found-potential-cause-of-the-disease-in-the-behaviour-of-immune-cells--giving-new-hope-to-millions-10176652.html
>
> Also, did you see CNN's Weed 3 (which got stellar ratings btw) that
> addressed cannabinoids as a promising intervention:
> http://youtu.be/QnVHxOPEbqc
>
> -Henry
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From col.hales at gmail.com  Mon Apr 27 03:11:47 2015
From: col.hales at gmail.com (colin hales)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2015 13:11:47 +1000
Subject: [ExI] goodbye shockley lab
In-Reply-To: <010401d0808a$c0cdf670$4269e350$@att.net>
References: <010401d0808a$c0cdf670$4269e350$@att.net>
Message-ID: <553da90c.e287440a.14d0.59f3@mx.google.com>

The electrical engineer's blood in my veins shares your trauma.

I hope there's a plaque or something.




-----Original Message-----
From: "spike" <spike66 at att.net>
Sent: ?27/?04/?2015 11:52 AM
To: "'ExI chat list'" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: [ExI] goodbye shockley lab

 
 
 
Shockley?s lab where the transistor was invented has been torn down and hauled away.  I went by there this morning to do my humble adoration, my Hail Boole, my Praise Babbage, my prostrate veneration and reverent genuflections before the cradle of silicon-based life, and found a strip mall being constructed at the site.
 
This is not merely wrong, it is?
 
 
 

 
 
{8-[
 
spike
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From spike66 at att.net  Mon Apr 27 03:34:25 2015
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2015 20:34:25 -0700
Subject: [ExI] goodbye shockley lab
In-Reply-To: <553da90c.e287440a.14d0.59f3@mx.google.com>
References: <010401d0808a$c0cdf670$4269e350$@att.net>
 <553da90c.e287440a.14d0.59f3@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <007501d0809b$12320aa0$36961fe0$@att.net>

 

 

> On Behalf Of colin hales

Subject: Re: [ExI] goodbye shockley lab

 

>?The electrical engineer's blood in my veins shares your trauma.

>?I hope there's a plaque or something.



There is not!  While the building still stood, a plaque was mounted out front.  You can see it to the left of this Google Maps photo.  You can find it still on Google Maps if you enter  389 San Antonio Road, Mountain View CA.

I don?t know where that plaque is now, but I sincerely hope it ended up over in the Computer History Museum which is less than three miles away from the now absent cornerstone of human history: 



 

The wood on the building was rotting so it was easy to break off.  I have a piece of it in a shrine in my office.  I collected it when Anders and I worshipped at the site a couple years ago.

So tragic.  The barbarians could have at least left us a Wailing Wall on the site.

spike

 

 

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From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Mon Apr 27 05:02:39 2015
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2015 01:02:39 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Dementia
In-Reply-To: <CA+BCJUj7p=vXc3LkuvAKD4JH2yrwgCtp0AgsGrsmDbY-ud7e+Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8291904A-58C0-4D40-9E11-C742BCADB618@alumni.virginia.edu>
 <CA+BCJUj7p=vXc3LkuvAKD4JH2yrwgCtp0AgsGrsmDbY-ud7e+Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAAc1gFiPotHb5F10izFkaVVjbC7aY6p3i1CzPAYQjCt57fxrqg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Apr 26, 2015 at 4:43 PM, Jason Resch <jasonresch at gmail.com> wrote:

> I'd highly recommend people read "Grain Brain
> <http://www.drperlmutter.com/about/grain-brain-by-david-perlmutter/>" if
> they're interested in what really might be behind the sharp rise and
> earlier onsets of dementia and Alzheimer's Disease.
>

### Can you point to some research data? As far as I know there has been a
steady decline in age-adjusted incidence of dementia in the US over the
last 30 years or so.
-------------


> Good Calories Bad Calories is also quite illuminating, and shows that many
> diseases (heart disease, many cancers, dementia) are based on the high
> amounts of sugar and refined carbohydrates in the modern diet.
> Increasingly, Alzheimer's is considered a "diabetes of the brain", and is
> linked to the brain's reduced capacity to absorb glucose. Fortunately,
> there are two fuels the brain is capable of processing, glucose and ketone
> bodies.  Ketone bodies are normally only produced during starvation or
> diets with highly restricted carbohydrate intake, however, some foods, such
> as goat milk and coconut oil contain medium chain triglycerides (MCTs). The
> liver processes MCTs into ketone bodies directly. The physician Mary
> Newport <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=feyydeMFWy4> successfully used
> coconut oil to treat her husbands pre-senile dementia and many reviewers
> on Amazon.com
> <http://www.amazon.com/NOW-Foods-100-32-Fluid-Ounces/product-reviews/B0019LRY8A/ref=cm_cr_pr_viewopt_srt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1&sortBy=helpful&reviewerType=all_reviews&formatType=all_formats&filterByStar=all_stars&pageNumber=1>
> claim the same.
>

### You may try Axxona, an MCT preparation approved by the FDA for
treatment of AD. Beware of side effects in the form of diarrhea - the
dosing must be escalated slowly.

Rafa?
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From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com  Mon Apr 27 06:23:33 2015
From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg)
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2015 23:23:33 -0700
Subject: [ExI] goodbye shockley lab
In-Reply-To: <007501d0809b$12320aa0$36961fe0$@att.net>
References: <010401d0808a$c0cdf670$4269e350$@att.net>
 <553da90c.e287440a.14d0.59f3@mx.google.com>
 <007501d0809b$12320aa0$36961fe0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAGSKFy2dt3mc9+QdBFU2_FztpQWaY90ujsvFsEC2vhEipWepwQ@mail.gmail.com>

Spike, why didn't the tech titans of Silicon Valley buy and preserve the
site?  Do they have no sense of history?


John  :  (

On Sun, Apr 26, 2015 at 8:34 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *>* *On Behalf Of *colin hales
>
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] goodbye shockley lab
>
>
>
> >?The electrical engineer's blood in my veins shares your trauma.
>
> >?I hope there's a plaque or something.
>
> There is not!  While the building still stood, a plaque was mounted out
> front.  You can see it to the left of this Google Maps photo.  You can find
> it still on Google Maps if you enter  389 San Antonio Road, Mountain View
> CA.
>
> I don?t know where that plaque is now, but I sincerely hope it ended up
> over in the Computer History Museum which is less than three miles away
> from the now absent cornerstone of human history:
>
>
>
> The wood on the building was rotting so it was easy to break off.  I have
> a piece of it in a shrine in my office.  I collected it when Anders and I
> worshipped at the site a couple years ago.
>
> So tragic.  The barbarians could have at least left us a Wailing Wall on
> the site.
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From pharos at gmail.com  Mon Apr 27 06:48:22 2015
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2015 07:48:22 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Dementia
In-Reply-To: <CAAc1gFiPotHb5F10izFkaVVjbC7aY6p3i1CzPAYQjCt57fxrqg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8291904A-58C0-4D40-9E11-C742BCADB618@alumni.virginia.edu>
 <CA+BCJUj7p=vXc3LkuvAKD4JH2yrwgCtp0AgsGrsmDbY-ud7e+Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFiPotHb5F10izFkaVVjbC7aY6p3i1CzPAYQjCt57fxrqg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armhPxZEV7TcXk7cnQuPkCRnV8=TSu4oR0pJAB92E8yjX7g@mail.gmail.com>

On 27 April 2015 at 06:02, Rafal Smigrodzki wrote:
> ### Can you point to some research data? As far as I know there has been a
> steady decline in age-adjusted incidence of dementia in the US over the last
> 30 years or so.
> -------------
>

Mortality From Alzheimer's Disease in the United States:
Data for 2000 and 2010

<http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/databriefs/db116.htm>

The age-adjusted death rate from Alzheimer's disease increased by 39
percent from 2000 through 2010 in the United States.
Alzheimer's disease is the sixth leading cause of death in the United
States and is the fifth leading cause among people aged 65 years and
over. People aged 85 years and over have a 5.4 times greater risk of
dying from Alzheimer's disease than people aged 75-84 years.
-------------

There are a few provisos though.

Diagnosis of dementia and Alzheimers as primary cause of death seems
to vary between doctors and states.
Death rates for cancer, heart disease and strokes have reduced as
Alzheimers has increased.
(So the Alz increase may be connected to people living longer).

Certainly the life extension research needs to fix brain damage as
well as body damage.

BillK


From pharos at gmail.com  Mon Apr 27 08:11:15 2015
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2015 09:11:15 +0100
Subject: [ExI] goodbye shockley lab
In-Reply-To: <CAGSKFy2dt3mc9+QdBFU2_FztpQWaY90ujsvFsEC2vhEipWepwQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <010401d0808a$c0cdf670$4269e350$@att.net>
 <553da90c.e287440a.14d0.59f3@mx.google.com>
 <007501d0809b$12320aa0$36961fe0$@att.net>
 <CAGSKFy2dt3mc9+QdBFU2_FztpQWaY90ujsvFsEC2vhEipWepwQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armhRPZ2WU2gPa_fO3zc2BU3beyp9BnQSmydUUBxSNUTnJA@mail.gmail.com>

On 27 April 2015 at 07:23, John Grigg  wrote:
> Spike, why didn't the tech titans of Silicon Valley buy and preserve the site?
> Do they have no sense of history?


Possibly because in later life Shockley became unpopular because of
his support for eugenics and race.

BillK


From jasonresch at gmail.com  Mon Apr 27 05:33:02 2015
From: jasonresch at gmail.com (Jason Resch)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2015 00:33:02 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Dementia
In-Reply-To: <CAAc1gFiPotHb5F10izFkaVVjbC7aY6p3i1CzPAYQjCt57fxrqg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8291904A-58C0-4D40-9E11-C742BCADB618@alumni.virginia.edu>
 <CA+BCJUj7p=vXc3LkuvAKD4JH2yrwgCtp0AgsGrsmDbY-ud7e+Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFiPotHb5F10izFkaVVjbC7aY6p3i1CzPAYQjCt57fxrqg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+BCJUgmfz6NvwtwmHOCCV+M9aXeTdeLhxCRrHoCH8GEWhs9+A@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Apr 27, 2015 at 12:02 AM, Rafal Smigrodzki <
rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Sun, Apr 26, 2015 at 4:43 PM, Jason Resch <jasonresch at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I'd highly recommend people read "Grain Brain
>> <http://www.drperlmutter.com/about/grain-brain-by-david-perlmutter/>" if
>> they're interested in what really might be behind the sharp rise and
>> earlier onsets of dementia and Alzheimer's Disease.
>>
>
> ### Can you point to some research data? As far as I know there has been a
> steady decline in age-adjusted incidence of dementia in the US over the
> last 30 years or so.
> -------------
>

Rafal,

You're correct. I was under the impression that incidence had been
increasing, but perhaps that impression was based on people living longer
(and not taking into account age adjustments).

From: http://www.alz.org/facts/overview.asp

"The number of Americans with Alzheimer's disease and other dementias will
grow each year as the size and proportion of the U.S. population age 65 and
older continue to increase. By 2025, the number of people age 65 and older
with Alzheimer's disease is estimated to reach 7.1 million ? a 40 percent
increase from the 5.1 million age 65 and older affected in 2015. By 2050,
the number of people age 65 and older with Alzheimer's disease may nearly
triple, from 5.1 million to a projected 13.8 million, barring the
development of medical breakthroughs to prevent or cure the disease."


Though it looks like the above isn't adjusting for population growth either.


>
>
>> Good Calories Bad Calories is also quite illuminating, and shows that
>> many diseases (heart disease, many cancers, dementia) are based on the high
>> amounts of sugar and refined carbohydrates in the modern diet.
>> Increasingly, Alzheimer's is considered a "diabetes of the brain", and is
>> linked to the brain's reduced capacity to absorb glucose. Fortunately,
>> there are two fuels the brain is capable of processing, glucose and ketone
>> bodies.  Ketone bodies are normally only produced during starvation or
>> diets with highly restricted carbohydrate intake, however, some foods, such
>> as goat milk and coconut oil contain medium chain triglycerides (MCTs). The
>> liver processes MCTs into ketone bodies directly. The physician Mary
>> Newport <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=feyydeMFWy4> successfully used
>> coconut oil to treat her husbands pre-senile dementia and many reviewers
>> on Amazon.com
>> <http://www.amazon.com/NOW-Foods-100-32-Fluid-Ounces/product-reviews/B0019LRY8A/ref=cm_cr_pr_viewopt_srt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1&sortBy=helpful&reviewerType=all_reviews&formatType=all_formats&filterByStar=all_stars&pageNumber=1>
>> claim the same.
>>
>
> ### You may try Axxona, an MCT preparation approved by the FDA for
> treatment of AD. Beware of side effects in the form of diarrhea - the
> dosing must be escalated slowly.
>
>
Interesting, I was not aware of that product. It's interesting that a
prescription is required for something that can be found in
"over-the-counter" food.

Nice to meet you, and everyone. I am new to the extropian list (having
recently been introduced to it by John Clark on the everything list).

Jason
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From spike66 at att.net  Mon Apr 27 14:55:28 2015
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2015 07:55:28 -0700
Subject: [ExI] goodbye shockley lab
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armhRPZ2WU2gPa_fO3zc2BU3beyp9BnQSmydUUBxSNUTnJA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <010401d0808a$c0cdf670$4269e350$@att.net>
 <553da90c.e287440a.14d0.59f3@mx.google.com>
 <007501d0809b$12320aa0$36961fe0$@att.net>
 <CAGSKFy2dt3mc9+QdBFU2_FztpQWaY90ujsvFsEC2vhEipWepwQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armhRPZ2WU2gPa_fO3zc2BU3beyp9BnQSmydUUBxSNUTnJA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00ba01d080fa$3671a060$a354e120$@att.net>


>... On Behalf Of BillK
Subject: Re: [ExI] goodbye shockley lab

On 27 April 2015 at 07:23, John Grigg  wrote:
>>... Spike, why didn't the tech titans of Silicon Valley buy and preserve
the site?
> Do they have no sense of history?


>...Possibly because in later life Shockley became unpopular because of his
support for eugenics and race...BillK
_______________________________________________


Universal consensus agrees Shockley was an asshole.  However the importance
of that building transcends that.  Shockley wasn't the only one working
there.

spike



From anders at aleph.se  Mon Apr 27 15:22:52 2015
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2015 17:22:52 +0200
Subject: [ExI] goodbye shockley lab
In-Reply-To: <007501d0809b$12320aa0$36961fe0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <4218818161-17432@secure.ericade.net>

Very sad. I am glad I have the pictures I took with Spike & son at the site. And a few splinters, which I keep in a jar next to some soil from Bletchley Park. Just in case.?



spike?<spike66 at att.net>?, 27/4/2015 5:51 AM:



?So tragic.? The barbarians could have at least left us a Wailing Wall on the site.


Well, we techies can always make a Wailing Facebook Wall. Or a Tweeting Wall.?





Anders Sandberg, Future of Humanity Institute Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University

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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Mon Apr 27 16:07:24 2015
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2015 12:07:24 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Environmental irrationality and Chipotle
Message-ID: <CAJPayv284wBY4HNUnKjsPfnyzDAyb2VxvySDVeubtKuxU8j8Mw@mail.gmail.com>

Environmentalists love to drone on and on about the dangers of insecticides
and herbicides entering the food supply and of fertilizer getting into our
rivers and lakes, but they applauded the restaurant chain Chipotle for
refusing to use food that came from plants that need less insecticides,
herbicides  and fertilizer. Even though they have never hurt anybody
Chipotle caved in to superstition and announced they won't serve food that
came from genetically modified plants.

Except that they still will, virtually none of the plant food humans have
consumed for the last few thousand years came from plants in their
genetically natural state.

  John K Clark
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Mon Apr 27 17:16:18 2015
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2015 12:16:18 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Environmental irrationality and Chipotle
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv284wBY4HNUnKjsPfnyzDAyb2VxvySDVeubtKuxU8j8Mw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv284wBY4HNUnKjsPfnyzDAyb2VxvySDVeubtKuxU8j8Mw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZmPz8kTEcr9m8dtVOPHdrDeJdS8D_s0a3DRh6qoLNo1A@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Apr 27, 2015 at 11:07 AM, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

> Environmentalists love to drone on and on about the dangers of
> insecticides and herbicides entering the food supply and of fertilizer
> getting into our rivers and lakes, but they applauded the restaurant chain
> Chipotle for refusing to use food that came from plants that need less
> insecticides, herbicides  and fertilizer. Even though they have never hurt
> anybody Chipotle caved in to superstition and announced they won't serve
> food that came from genetically modified plants.
>
> Except that they still will, virtually none of the plant food humans have
> consumed for the last few thousand years came from plants in their
> genetically natural state.
>
>   John K Clark
>
?Good article in the NYT Sunday about a man converting from anti-to
pro-GMO.?


> ?
>
?
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/25/opinion/sunday/how-i-got-converted-to-gmo-food.html?ref=opinion
?




> bill w?
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From danust2012 at gmail.com  Mon Apr 27 21:11:08 2015
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2015 14:11:08 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Vegan Rex?
Message-ID: <06F30177-D94A-4219-8C96-97FEF42F5ED4@gmail.com>

http://www.theguardian.com/science/2015/apr/27/bizarre-jurassic-dinosaur-chilesaurus-diegosuarezi-discovered-in-remarkable-new-find 

Regards, 

Dan 
 Sample my Kindle books via: 
http://www.amazon.com/Dan-Ust/e/B00J6HPX8M/ 

> 
> __,_._,___
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Mon Apr 27 22:24:45 2015
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2015 17:24:45 -0500
Subject: [ExI] oldies but goodies
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZZvG-xZ_FtOJsiSqf6tZ=6jB5875=qKFCcVRdNDuWx1Q@mail.gmail.com>

'Computers in the future may weigh no more than 1.5 tons.'  Popular
Mechanics, 1949

"This 'telephone' has too many shortcomings to be seriously considered as a
means of communication.  The device is inherently of no value to us.'
Western Union internal memo, after Bell offered to sell them the rights

'The wireless music box has no imaginable commercial value.  Who would pay
for a message sent to nobody in particular.'  Associate of NBC president
David Sarnoff, responding to his recommendation that they invest in radio.
1920s

'We don't like their sound, and guitar music is on the way out'.  Decca
records board, rejecting the Beatles, 1962

'Heavier than air flying machines are impossible.'  Lord Kelvin 1895

'If I had thought about it, I wouldn't have done the experiment.  The
literature was full of examples that said you can't do this.'  Spencer
Silver, on the adhesive that led to Post-Its

'Professor Goddard does not know the relation between action and reaction
and the need to have something better than a vacuum against which to
react.  He seems to lack the basic knowledge ladled out daily in high
schools.'  NYT editorial, 1921, about rocket work

'Everything has can be invented has been invented.'  Commissioner of US
Patents Charles Duell, 1899

'Louis Pasteur's theory of germs is ridiculous fiction.'  Pierre Pachet,
Professor of physiology at Toulouse, 1872

and the most famous one:

'640k ought to be enough for anybody' - Bill Gates 1981

I can't remember the origin or author, but it was a Congressman around the
time income tax laws were enacted -
'I can see the day where the rates may go as high as 10%!'
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From col.hales at gmail.com  Mon Apr 27 22:35:03 2015
From: col.hales at gmail.com (colin hales)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2015 08:35:03 +1000
Subject: [ExI] goodbye shockley lab
In-Reply-To: <4218818161-17432@secure.ericade.net>
References: <007501d0809b$12320aa0$36961fe0$@att.net>
 <4218818161-17432@secure.ericade.net>
Message-ID: <553eb9ae.8ac1440a.12bb.6502@mx.google.com>

Events like these (Bletchley/Turing, Shockley/eugenics) are emblematic of science as a deeply human venture. Great insight and genius handed to us in a wrapper of human folly.

To me, to lose touch with the genius or the folly diminishes all of us. Acknowledging the genius is not endorsing the folly.

It's good to see folks that share my deep sense of history. It's a Kwik-e-Mart. So be it! ??. 

Cheers
Colin 






-----Original Message-----
From: "Anders Sandberg" <anders at aleph.se>
Sent: ?28/?04/?2015 1:24 AM
To: "ExI chat list" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: Re: [ExI] goodbye shockley lab

Very sad. I am glad I have the pictures I took with Spike & son at the site. And a few splinters, which I keep in a jar next to some soil from Bletchley Park. Just in case. 



spike <spike66 at att.net> , 27/4/2015 5:51 AM:

 So tragic.  The barbarians could have at least left us a Wailing Wall on the site.


Well, we techies can always make a Wailing Facebook Wall. Or a Tweeting Wall. 



Anders Sandberg, Future of Humanity Institute Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University
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From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Tue Apr 28 06:06:15 2015
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2015 02:06:15 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Wrath of the Old Ones
Message-ID: <CAAc1gFgtNKQqyGFYTbZkdv24Sk_Dxdpyu0pN_60H9GnNXrUTWA@mail.gmail.com>

Some time ago we talked here about banking matter for future use when
ultralow cosmic background greatly magnifies its usefulness for
computations. Now I am wondering what kind of approach would the Old Ones
use to prevent weeds from sprouting among the galaxies they tend to.

At first glance, I would think they would simply extinguish stars and
possibly store matter in containers too small to trigger nuclear fusion but
large enough to be gravitationally stable. When the time comes, in 10e100
years, they would awaken, and haul the frozen carcasses to the remaining
black holes, and carefully stoke quasar fires again. But how do you prevent
rapacious little critters from crawling out of every damp piece of rock
every couple of billion years or so?

It's worth noting that simply snuffing out stars won't stop initiation of
life. Life on Earth most likely started from an energy source independent
of the sunlight - from proton concentration gradients in alkaline seeps,
powered by serpentinization of peridotite. Surely there are many other
potential energy gradients that can power pre-biotic evolution.

Keeping tabs on the world over eons will be a tall order. The Old Ones
would need unfailing will, an unwavering commitment through the long night,
absolute unity, since factionalism would almost certainly devolve into ever
shorter term fights over resources. The would need to stay lean, so as not
to use up negentropy too quickly but not too lean to swat emerging bipeds
pronto. Any parasite capable of boosting its von Neumann spores to high
sublight speeds could spread appallingly fast, and promptly convert the
stored matter into yet more parasites.

The coming night, in mere 10 - 20 billions of years, will be the canvas of
titanic struggles among grim forces acting over trillion-year horizons.

Rafa?
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From protokol2020 at gmail.com  Tue Apr 28 06:30:28 2015
From: protokol2020 at gmail.com (Tomaz Kristan)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2015 08:30:28 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Wrath of the Old Ones
In-Reply-To: <CAAc1gFgtNKQqyGFYTbZkdv24Sk_Dxdpyu0pN_60H9GnNXrUTWA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAc1gFgtNKQqyGFYTbZkdv24Sk_Dxdpyu0pN_60H9GnNXrUTWA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALMrAFRd=Z=xwACr=88SYkiWS4vDWBYQY=P28H8QZKeApNkAww@mail.gmail.com>

The following I'd like to add.

It shouldn't be that difficult to stop the life popping up and evolving
everywhere around. Extinguishing stars should suffice. Even those fishes,
crabs and so on, around the deep ocean thermal vents are heavily sponsored
by oxygen from photosynthesis. They are not independent at all! Contrary to
what we are listening all the time, especially regarding Europa.

Life is rather difficult.

On Tue, Apr 28, 2015 at 8:06 AM, Rafal Smigrodzki <
rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com> wrote:

> Some time ago we talked here about banking matter for future use when
> ultralow cosmic background greatly magnifies its usefulness for
> computations. Now I am wondering what kind of approach would the Old Ones
> use to prevent weeds from sprouting among the galaxies they tend to.
>
> At first glance, I would think they would simply extinguish stars and
> possibly store matter in containers too small to trigger nuclear fusion but
> large enough to be gravitationally stable. When the time comes, in 10e100
> years, they would awaken, and haul the frozen carcasses to the remaining
> black holes, and carefully stoke quasar fires again. But how do you prevent
> rapacious little critters from crawling out of every damp piece of rock
> every couple of billion years or so?
>
> It's worth noting that simply snuffing out stars won't stop initiation of
> life. Life on Earth most likely started from an energy source independent
> of the sunlight - from proton concentration gradients in alkaline seeps,
> powered by serpentinization of peridotite. Surely there are many other
> potential energy gradients that can power pre-biotic evolution.
>
> Keeping tabs on the world over eons will be a tall order. The Old Ones
> would need unfailing will, an unwavering commitment through the long night,
> absolute unity, since factionalism would almost certainly devolve into ever
> shorter term fights over resources. The would need to stay lean, so as not
> to use up negentropy too quickly but not too lean to swat emerging bipeds
> pronto. Any parasite capable of boosting its von Neumann spores to high
> sublight speeds could spread appallingly fast, and promptly convert the
> stored matter into yet more parasites.
>
> The coming night, in mere 10 - 20 billions of years, will be the canvas of
> titanic struggles among grim forces acting over trillion-year horizons.
>
> Rafa?
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>


-- 
https://protokol2020.wordpress.com/
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From danust2012 at gmail.com  Tue Apr 28 07:01:43 2015
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2015 00:01:43 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Wrath of the Old Ones
In-Reply-To: <CALMrAFRd=Z=xwACr=88SYkiWS4vDWBYQY=P28H8QZKeApNkAww@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAc1gFgtNKQqyGFYTbZkdv24Sk_Dxdpyu0pN_60H9GnNXrUTWA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALMrAFRd=Z=xwACr=88SYkiWS4vDWBYQY=P28H8QZKeApNkAww@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <EC2CE900-03CD-47BB-B3DC-577B267B8BD8@gmail.com>

On Apr 27, 2015, at 11:30 PM, Tomaz Kristan <protokol2020 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> The following I'd like to add. 
> 
> It shouldn't be that difficult to stop the life popping up and evolving everywhere around. Extinguishing stars should suffice. Even those fishes, crabs and so on, around the deep ocean thermal vents are heavily sponsored by oxygen from photosynthesis. They are not independent at all! Contrary to what we are listening all the time, especially regarding Europa.
> 
> Life is rather difficult.

How can you be sure? Seems merely conjecture at this time, no?

Regards,

Dan
 Sample my Kindle books via:
http://www.amazon.com/Dan-Ust/e/B00J6HPX8M/
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From protokol2020 at gmail.com  Tue Apr 28 08:22:36 2015
From: protokol2020 at gmail.com (Tomaz Kristan)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2015 10:22:36 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Wrath of the Old Ones
In-Reply-To: <EC2CE900-03CD-47BB-B3DC-577B267B8BD8@gmail.com>
References: <CAAc1gFgtNKQqyGFYTbZkdv24Sk_Dxdpyu0pN_60H9GnNXrUTWA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALMrAFRd=Z=xwACr=88SYkiWS4vDWBYQY=P28H8QZKeApNkAww@mail.gmail.com>
 <EC2CE900-03CD-47BB-B3DC-577B267B8BD8@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALMrAFThPJnkzEzg_2WFi2=ysnOpWr=XmqVwepLSx3FaJJMA2w@mail.gmail.com>

I am quite sure, that those fishes have gills and that they bread oxygen
produced by green plants. It is quite a safe assertion.

No matter, that every National Geographic's famous professor keeps
forgetting this in Jupiter moons shows. On every popular science channel,
not only NGC, of course.

Temperature differences inside Europa oceans are probably far too small for
a complexity to evolve. A close bright star is very likely needed.

But better safe than sorry, dismantle Europas, too!





On Tue, Apr 28, 2015 at 9:01 AM, Dan <danust2012 at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Apr 27, 2015, at 11:30 PM, Tomaz Kristan <protokol2020 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> The following I'd like to add.
>
> It shouldn't be that difficult to stop the life popping up and evolving
> everywhere around. Extinguishing stars should suffice. Even those fishes,
> crabs and so on, around the deep ocean thermal vents are heavily sponsored
> by oxygen from photosynthesis. They are not independent at all! Contrary to
> what we are listening all the time, especially regarding Europa.
>
> Life is rather difficult.
>
>
> How can you be sure? Seems merely conjecture at this time, no?
>
> Regards,
>
> Dan
>  Sample my Kindle books via:
> http://www.amazon.com/Dan-Ust/e/B00J6HPX8M/
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>


-- 
https://protokol2020.wordpress.com/
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From anders at aleph.se  Tue Apr 28 08:54:46 2015
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2015 10:54:46 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Wrath of the Old Ones
In-Reply-To: <CAAc1gFgtNKQqyGFYTbZkdv24Sk_Dxdpyu0pN_60H9GnNXrUTWA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4281989597-12029@secure.ericade.net>


Rafal Smigrodzki <rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com> , 28/4/2015 8:09 AM:

Keeping tabs on the world over eons will be a tall order. The Old Ones would need unfailing will, an unwavering commitment through the long night, absolute unity, since factionalism would almost certainly devolve into ever shorter term fights over resources. The would need to stay lean, so as not to use up negentropy too quickly but not too lean to swat emerging bipeds pronto. Any parasite capable of boosting its von Neumann spores to high sublight speeds could spread appallingly fast, and promptly convert the stored matter into yet more parasites.

von Neumann probes also show how you can maintain the "unfailing will" - just outsource it to your machinery while you sleep. They can implement your policy, and wake up the nightguard when something unexpected happens.?


Analysing the aestivation scenario, I have become mildly sceptical of it as a good Fermi answer. There is a lot of waste going on (just consider the recent news about the 11 orphan galaxies - *entire galaxies* are being lost!) and we are *so* close to launching the probes.






Anders Sandberg, Future of Humanity Institute Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University
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From talon57 at sbcglobal.net  Tue Apr 28 12:20:33 2015
From: talon57 at sbcglobal.net (Brian Williams)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2015 07:20:33 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Dementia (Jason Resch)
Message-ID: <2B970923-BF2E-4352-A958-7D055E2A2330@sbcglobal.net>

I would like to suggest the book "Ending Aging" by Aubrey de Grey for consideration on this subject and all things extropian.

Brian Williams


Sent from my iPhone


From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Tue Apr 28 21:15:57 2015
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2015 17:15:57 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Wrath of the Old Ones
In-Reply-To: <4281989597-12029@secure.ericade.net>
References: <CAAc1gFgtNKQqyGFYTbZkdv24Sk_Dxdpyu0pN_60H9GnNXrUTWA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4281989597-12029@secure.ericade.net>
Message-ID: <CAAc1gFhzkXtP2JF6jvDbzRN3J4oYfcR9eTgvA4CyAnDxtcpS_w@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 28, 2015 at 4:54 AM, Anders Sandberg <anders at aleph.se> wrote:

von Neumann probes also show how you can maintain the "unfailing will" -
just outsource it to your machinery while you sleep. They can implement
your policy, and wake up the nightguard when something unexpected happens.

### We are talking about an abyss of time. Will it be possible to assure
flawless functioning of a an intelligence, whether you call it a machine or
an upload, over a trillion of years? A machine capable of detecting new
parasites, ones it has never seen before, therefore in need of a
flexibility, careful calibration of behaviors in response to a never ending
barrage of new threats? Maybe, our little corner of configuration space of
intelligent minds is a very biased and small sample, so maybe you can build
the ever-faithful, god-like guardian - the subject matter of FAI research
but adding the immensity of time to the equation certainly does not make it
easier.
 ----------------

>
> Analysing the aestivation scenario, I have become mildly sceptical of it
> as a good Fermi answer. There is a lot of waste going on (just consider the
> recent news about the 11 orphan galaxies - *entire galaxies* are being
> lost!) and we are *so* close to launching the probes.
>

### I may have been speaking in an obscure way, actually thinking about the
future, not the present - I believe that the Old Ones have not been born
yet, unless some of us get stupendously lucky :)

Rafal
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From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Tue Apr 28 21:24:21 2015
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2015 17:24:21 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Wrath of the Old Ones
In-Reply-To: <CALMrAFRd=Z=xwACr=88SYkiWS4vDWBYQY=P28H8QZKeApNkAww@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAc1gFgtNKQqyGFYTbZkdv24Sk_Dxdpyu0pN_60H9GnNXrUTWA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALMrAFRd=Z=xwACr=88SYkiWS4vDWBYQY=P28H8QZKeApNkAww@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAAc1gFiuQhuawO0E9oyKmpDiwm34037O7FvXwJbKa7Z6CS4T=g@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 28, 2015 at 2:30 AM, Tomaz Kristan <protokol2020 at gmail.com>
wrote:

> The following I'd like to add.
>
> It shouldn't be that difficult to stop the life popping up and evolving
> everywhere around. Extinguishing stars should suffice. Even those fishes,
> crabs and so on, around the deep ocean thermal vents are heavily sponsored
> by oxygen from photosynthesis. They are not independent at all! Contrary to
> what we are listening all the time, especially regarding Europa.
>

### Indeed, you may be right - even if no sunlight is needed for some kind
of hardscrabble life to evolve, it may be a necessary ingredient for the
potentially dangerous life, or our kind of life.

Rafal
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From listsb at infinitefaculty.org  Tue Apr 28 22:34:19 2015
From: listsb at infinitefaculty.org (Brian Manning Delaney)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2015 18:34:19 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Dementia (Jason Resch)
In-Reply-To: <2B970923-BF2E-4352-A958-7D055E2A2330@sbcglobal.net>
References: <2B970923-BF2E-4352-A958-7D055E2A2330@sbcglobal.net>
Message-ID: <55400AEB.7010007@infinitefaculty.org>

El 2015-04-28 a las 08:20, Brian Williams escribi?:
> I would like to suggest the book "Ending Aging" by Aubrey de Grey for consideration on this subject and all things extropian.

Minor, point, but, for the record:

by Aubrey de Grey /and/ Michael Rae

Michael is wearing several hats these days, by the way:

http://www.crsociety.org/blog/3/entry-7-michael-rae-appointed-as-cr-society-vp-for-research/

And yes, great book! I believe all profits from book sales go to the 
SENS Research Foundation, and very good and extropic cause.

Brian


From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Tue Apr 28 23:05:49 2015
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2015 19:05:49 -0400
Subject: [ExI] The Anti-Flynn
Message-ID: <CAAc1gFirYp_5KFcxJYqhBTudfxkNgB7spiEp3ECC3a9GfCZhng@mail.gmail.com>

So it looks like the Flynn effect might be just a trivial language trend,
while true intelligence steadily decreases:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3c4TxciNeJZN1g0NjF0WmtUeHc/view?pli=1

A pity.
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From tara at taramayastales.com  Tue Apr 28 23:53:30 2015
From: tara at taramayastales.com (Tara Maya)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2015 16:53:30 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The Anti-Flynn
In-Reply-To: <CAAc1gFirYp_5KFcxJYqhBTudfxkNgB7spiEp3ECC3a9GfCZhng@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAc1gFirYp_5KFcxJYqhBTudfxkNgB7spiEp3ECC3a9GfCZhng@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4128968D-0A89-4114-9CE1-FE0DDC84FF00@taramayastales.com>

Nah, I don?t buy it. Too many holes in this methodology. 

One tests measures household vocabulary of American families from 1974. How does this test take into account immigrant families and people for whom English is not a first language? I saw nothing about that, and it seems to me that the immigration issue alone makes any measure of genetic evolution in America problematic? if not, in fact, worthless.

Another test uses text vocabulary words from 1500 to now. The number of people producing those vocabulary-rich texts was an incredibly smaller percentage of the overall population. So it?s like comparing texts produced by only the top 1% to texts produced by the top 80% of the bell curve and then noting that IQ seems to have gone down. In fact, as education expands and the literate population expands as well, the lowering of text difficulty is what we would expect to see.

(There?s another fallacy here, and that is that difficult words prove the writer is more intelligent. Having been forced to endure a post-modernist education, whose proponents believe in the same theory, I can assure you that often multisyllabic gobbdygook exhibits far less intelligence than clear, direct writing using simple and direct sentences with concrete nouns and verbs.)

In addition, I?ve read Murray?s works on the supposed distribution of genius, invention and works of art and I don?t agree with him at all that his standards are ?objective.? On the contrary, any modern inventions and modern forms of art are discounted and degenerated. So if Mozart counts as a musical genius but a rap star doesn?t and the printing press counts as an invention but a new app for the iPad doesn?t, then OF COURSE it appears there were more ?works of genius? in the past than among these good-for-nothing hooligan youngsters.

But the biggest problem with the Dysgenic crowd, in my opinion, is that they misunderstand the Demographic Revolution. They think that because the most educated, prosperous and (presumably) intelligent men and women entered the Demographic Revolution first, this meant they were suddenly losing the evolutionary race, when just the opposite was true. It would be like contemporary social scientists of the Agricultural Revolution wringing their hands because all  the most educated, prosperous and intelligent men and women of their time were no longer spending as much time hunting and gathering as the dullards? completely missing the fact that the reason is because the smartest members of society are the first of the bell curve to have taken up sowing and reaping instead.

Tara Maya
Blog <http://taramayastales.blogspot.com/>  |  Twitter <https://twitter.com/taramayastales>  |  Facebook <http://www.facebook.com/pages/The-Unfinished-Song-Epic-Fantasy/310271375658211?ref=hl>  |  Amazon <http://www.amazon.com/Tara-Maya/e/B004HAI038/ref=sr_tc_2_0?qid=1349796143&sr=8-2-ent>  |  Goodreads <http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/2951879.Tara_Maya>



> On Apr 28, 2015, at 4:05 PM, Rafal Smigrodzki <rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> So it looks like the Flynn effect might be just a trivial language trend, while true intelligence steadily decreases:
> 
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3c4TxciNeJZN1g0NjF0WmtUeHc/view?pli=1 <https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3c4TxciNeJZN1g0NjF0WmtUeHc/view?pli=1>
> 
> A pity.
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Wed Apr 29 01:50:31 2015
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2015 20:50:31 -0500
Subject: [ExI] The Anti-Flynn
In-Reply-To: <4128968D-0A89-4114-9CE1-FE0DDC84FF00@taramayastales.com>
References: <CAAc1gFirYp_5KFcxJYqhBTudfxkNgB7spiEp3ECC3a9GfCZhng@mail.gmail.com>
 <4128968D-0A89-4114-9CE1-FE0DDC84FF00@taramayastales.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYeCgc+W2gTHECwdCH8fm9Gk+pwD9qF7fwvQXxECrgGUg@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 28, 2015 at 6:53 PM, Tara Maya <tara at taramayastales.com> wrote:

> Nah, I don?t buy it. Too many holes in this methodology.
>
> One tests measures household vocabulary of American families from 1974.
> How does this test take into account immigrant families and people for whom
> English is not a first language? I saw nothing about that, and it seems to
> me that the immigration issue alone makes any measure of genetic evolution
> in America problematic? if not, in fact, worthless.
>
> Another test uses text vocabulary words from 1500 to now. The number of
> people producing those vocabulary-rich texts was an incredibly smaller
> percentage of the overall population. So it?s like comparing texts produced
> by only the top 1% to texts produced by the top 80% of the bell curve and
> then noting that IQ seems to have gone down. In fact, as education expands
> and the literate population expands as well, the lowering of text
> difficulty is what we would expect to see.
>
> (There?s another fallacy here, and that is that difficult words prove the
> writer is more intelligent. Having been forced to endure a post-modernist
> education, whose proponents believe in the same theory, I can assure you
> that often multisyllabic gobbdygook exhibits far less intelligence than
> clear, direct writing using simple and direct sentences with concrete nouns
> and verbs.)
>
> In addition, I?ve read Murray?s works on the supposed distribution of
> genius, invention and works of art and I don?t agree with him at all that
> his standards are ?objective.? On the contrary, any modern inventions and
> modern forms of art are discounted and degenerated. So if Mozart counts as
> a musical genius but a rap star doesn?t and the printing press counts as an
> invention but a new app for the iPad doesn?t, then OF COURSE it appears
> there were more ?works of genius? in the past than among these
> good-for-nothing hooligan youngsters.
>
> But the biggest problem with the Dysgenic crowd, in my opinion, is that
> they misunderstand the Demographic Revolution. They think that because the
> most educated, prosperous and (presumably) intelligent men and women
> entered the Demographic Revolution first, this meant they were suddenly
> losing the evolutionary race, when just the opposite was true. It would be
> like contemporary social scientists of the Agricultural Revolution wringing
> their hands because all  the most educated, prosperous and intelligent men
> and women of their time were no longer spending as much time hunting and
> gathering as the dullards? completely missing the fact that the reason is
> because the smartest members of society are the first of the bell curve to
> have taken up sowing and reaping instead.
>
> Tara Maya
>

?A rap artist as a genius.  Now there's a concept.?


> Blog <http://taramayastales.blogspot.com/>  |  Twitter
> <https://twitter.com/taramayastales>  |  Facebook
> <http://www.facebook.com/pages/The-Unfinished-Song-Epic-Fantasy/310271375658211?ref=hl>  |
>  Amazon
> <http://www.amazon.com/Tara-Maya/e/B004HAI038/ref=sr_tc_2_0?qid=1349796143&sr=8-2-ent>  |
>  Goodreads <http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/2951879.Tara_Maya>
>
>
>
> On Apr 28, 2015, at 4:05 PM, Rafal Smigrodzki <rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> So it looks like the Flynn effect might be just a trivial language trend,
> while true intelligence steadily decreases:
>
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3c4TxciNeJZN1g0NjF0WmtUeHc/view?pli=1
>
> A pity.
>  _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From spike66 at att.net  Wed Apr 29 02:17:26 2015
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2015 19:17:26 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The Anti-Flynn
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYeCgc+W2gTHECwdCH8fm9Gk+pwD9qF7fwvQXxECrgGUg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAc1gFirYp_5KFcxJYqhBTudfxkNgB7spiEp3ECC3a9GfCZhng@mail.gmail.com>
 <4128968D-0A89-4114-9CE1-FE0DDC84FF00@taramayastales.com>
 <CAO+xQEYeCgc+W2gTHECwdCH8fm9Gk+pwD9qF7fwvQXxECrgGUg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00c801d08222$a5c192d0$f144b870$@att.net>

 

 

>? On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace

 

?>?A rap artist as a genius.  Now there's a concept.?..

 

My city had an unsolved murder.  Three youths came into a local convenience store at 0300, robbed the place of 200 dollars and slew the clerk.  They had them on video but they were wearing ski masks and hoodies, so there were no leads.  Nearly a year later, the aspiring young musicians posted a rap to YouTube which included the lyrics ??Found us a sto, take down dat place, two to da mouf, now it?s a cold case??  

 

The case warmed up immediately, and all four were apprehended by the local constabulary, the three rap stars and the driver of the getaway car.

 

Commit a murder, get away cleanly, then post a YouTube rap bragging about it: genius.

 

spike  

 

 

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From msd001 at gmail.com  Wed Apr 29 02:41:02 2015
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2015 22:41:02 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Wrath of the Old Ones
In-Reply-To: <CAAc1gFiuQhuawO0E9oyKmpDiwm34037O7FvXwJbKa7Z6CS4T=g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAc1gFgtNKQqyGFYTbZkdv24Sk_Dxdpyu0pN_60H9GnNXrUTWA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALMrAFRd=Z=xwACr=88SYkiWS4vDWBYQY=P28H8QZKeApNkAww@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFiuQhuawO0E9oyKmpDiwm34037O7FvXwJbKa7Z6CS4T=g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOJFdb+pyQsJGdHVyjEwHNC7VY6a=uT9kM2Gq7_frthyBRP8jQ@mail.gmail.com>

Are we talking only about those who live within the confines of space-time
we can observe?  I wonder if cosmological constants have been left in
'safe' settings - we generally don't fear the oven is going to set fire to
the house while we're at work.  I propose all the order we are capable of
producing may be the plan for your Old Ones to consume as a refined fuel.
Otherwise,  they deserve to lose this universe to those who can put it to
better use.
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From anders at aleph.se  Wed Apr 29 09:55:53 2015
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2015 11:55:53 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Wrath of the Old Ones
In-Reply-To: <CAAc1gFhzkXtP2JF6jvDbzRN3J4oYfcR9eTgvA4CyAnDxtcpS_w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <76857415-24089@secure.ericade.net>


Rafal Smigrodzki <rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com> , 28/4/2015 11:19 PM:



On Tue, Apr 28, 2015 at 4:54 AM, Anders Sandberg <anders at aleph.se> wrote:


von Neumann probes also show how you can maintain the "unfailing will" - just outsource it to your machinery while you sleep. They can implement your policy, and wake up the nightguard when something unexpected happens.



### We are talking about an abyss of time. Will it be possible to assure flawless functioning of a an intelligence, whether you call it a machine or an upload, over a trillion of years? A machine capable of detecting new parasites, ones it has never seen before, therefore in need of a flexibility, careful calibration of behaviors in response to a never ending barrage of new threats?


That depends on your tradeoffs. von Neumann systems do not have to be smart to do their work, and you can ensure their replication (and software) fidelity to an arbitrary degree using checksums - if you want one error in 10^100, you can get it. And for most purposes you likely do not need systems smarter than a dog. Having higher order smarter systems to coordinate when things look strange imposes a bit more uncertainty, but if they only get activated when needed the total amount of instance-hours can be pretty small. Many of the ideas in AI safety and control are likely applicable here for making them both flexible and rigidly adherent to certain goals.?


Note that one can continue this chain, with a smarter exception handler for every level. The upper 1-2 levels would be the original Old Ones or their singleton. The smarter something is, the harder it is to ensure reliability and loyalty (unless we succeed with FAI very well), but it doesn't have to be used as much. I think it is likely the total amount of processing-hours performed on different levels declines exponentially with height in this model.







### I may have been speaking in an obscure way, actually thinking about the future, not the present - I believe that the Old Ones have not been born yet, unless some of us get stupendously lucky :)


Working on it :-)







Anders Sandberg, Future of Humanity Institute Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University
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From anders at aleph.se  Wed Apr 29 09:58:53 2015
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2015 11:58:53 +0200
Subject: [ExI] The Anti-Flynn
In-Reply-To: <4128968D-0A89-4114-9CE1-FE0DDC84FF00@taramayastales.com>
Message-ID: <77341688-24089@secure.ericade.net>


Tara Maya <tara at taramayastales.com> , 29/4/2015 1:56 AM:





In addition, I?ve read Murray?s works on the supposed distribution of genius, invention and works of art and I don?t agree with him at all that his standards are ?objective.? On the contrary, any modern inventions and modern forms of art are discounted and degenerated. So if Mozart counts as a musical genius but a rap star doesn?t and the printing press counts as an invention but a new app for the iPad doesn?t, then OF COURSE it appears there were more ?works of genius? in the past than among these good-for-nothing hooligan youngsters.


Where does he claim that? In Human Excellence he deliberately ignores recent decades for methodological reasons (the data would likely be biased in complex ways due to recency).


The problem of judging the importance of inventions is a pretty deep one.?



Anders Sandberg, Future of Humanity Institute Philosophy Faculty of Oxford University
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From ilia.stambler at gmail.com  Wed Apr 29 13:36:48 2015
From: ilia.stambler at gmail.com (Ilia Stambler)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2015 16:36:48 +0300
Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?May_15=2C_2015_=E2=80=93_170th_anniversary_of_Eli?=
	=?utf-8?q?e_Metchnikoff_=E2=80=93_the_founder_of_gerontology_-_an_?=
	=?utf-8?q?opportunity_to_promote_aging_and_longevity_research?=
Message-ID: <CAJbwcBiX-c9HuSy6pp7=+2gusOdK8787knN31VRD8XYdC6HFqA@mail.gmail.com>

Dear friends (apologies if you receive this more than once...)



On May 15, 2015, we celebrate the 170th anniversary of the founder of
gerontology, a foundational figure of modern immunology, aging and
longevity science, and of modern medicine generally ? Elie Metchnikoff (May
15, 1845 ? July 15, 1916). For the proponents of healthy longevity and
advocates of aging research, Metchnikoff has a special significance.
Metchnikoff is of course known as a pioneering immunologist and
microbiologist, a vice director of the Pasteur Institute in Paris, and the
Nobel Laureate in Physiology or Medicine of 1908 for the discovery of
phagocytosis (a major contribution to the cellular theory of immunity).
Yet, he may also be well credited as ?the father? of gerontology ? the
disciplinary term he coined in his book* Etudes On the Nature of Man*,
published in 1903, which may mark the beginning of this scientific field.



To the present day, his scientific reputation has remained high around the
world. In fact, Metchnikoff can be considered a unifying cultural symbol
for many nations. Beside being a great longevity scientist, he was also a
great longevity advocate, who spoke openly about the need to fight
degenerative aging and prolong life. He can be a great role model and
inspiration, and a Nobel-Prize carrying authoritative spokesman for the
longevity movement!



There is a tradition to celebrate the anniversaries of great persons
(scientists, artists, writers, politicians, generals) to promote the area
of their activity and popularize their ideology. It may be hoped that, in
this year, the anniversary of Metchnikoff will serve to promote and
popularize the science and ideology of healthy life extension, including
the state level. The ?Metchnikoff Day? can provide an impulse for
organizing topical meetings and conferences, a stimulus for research, and
publications in the media, dedicated to Metchnikoff?s legacy and
continuation of his life work ? the study of aging and longevity. This may
play a positive role not only for the advancement and popularization of
research of aging and healthy longevity, but also for the promotion of
optimism, peace and cooperation.



Currently events in honor of the Metchnikoff Day are being planned in Kiev,
Ukraine, on behalf of the Kiev Institute of Gerontology of the Ukrainian
Academy of Medical Sciences; St. Petersburg, Russia, on behalf of the
Gerontological Society of the Russian Academy of Sciences and I.I.
Mechnikov North-Western State Medical University; in Moscow on behalf of
the National Research Center for Preventive Medicine of the Ministry of
Healthcare of the Russian Federation, and further meetings in Moscow are
planned by several public organizations, including the Fedorov Movement,
the Russian Transhumanist Movement and the Russian Longevity Alliance;
Larnaca, Cyprus, on behalf of the ELPIs Foundation and the Cyprus
Neuroscience and Technology Institute; Oxford, UK, on behalf of the Oxford
University Scientific Society and Biogerontology Research Foundation; in
Ramat Gan, Bar Ilan University, Israel, on behalf of the Israeli Longevity
Alliance and the International Society on Aging and Disease (Israeli
branch).



It may be hoped that, following these examples, more events and
publications, dedicated to research of aging and longevity, will be held
around the world in honor of this day or close to it. Thus thanks to
Metchnikoff?s continuing inspiration and authority, the interest in aging
and longevity research will be increased in all the walks and segments of
society. And thanks to the increased interest and awareness, the research
will intensify, producing an improved capacity to contribute to the
achievement of healthy longevity for all.



There is little time left until May 15, perhaps enough to prepare a small
publication or meeting, live or online. Yet Metchnikoff?s authority may
help us promote the study of aging and longevity also in the next year ?
July 15, 2016 is the 100th anniversary of Metchnikoff?s death, which can
also become an impulse toward meetings and publications, with a greater
time for preparation. The organization of several connected events in
different countries in the same day (or period) in the framework of an
international action, may produce a synergistic, mutually reinforcing
effect.  Yet, of course, those are not the only days that could be used for
such an effect. An additional convenient day (or period) to conduct an
international action in support of aging and longevity research, can be
October 1, 2015 ? the day officially sanctioned by the UN as the
?International Day of Older Persons? (celebrated by some parts of the
longevity advocacy community as the ?International Longevity Day?). In
2013-2014, events around that day were conducted by various longevity
activists groups, public organizations and scientific centers in tens of
countries.

http://www.longevityforall.org/october-1-international-day-of-older-persons-longevity-day-2013-2014/



Hopefully, thanks to our mutual efforts, ?from above? and ?from below?,
thanks to the events, organized on those and other days ? the need to
promote research of aging and aging-related diseases to improve health and
longevity of the elderly population ? will be recognized by all parts of
society, including the broad public, the professional and scientific
community, and decision makers, and will stimulate actions corresponding to
the severity and urgency of the problem.

http://www.longevityforall.org/the-critical-need-to-promote-research-of-aging-around-the-world/



*Thank you for your support!*



Please see also a fuller announcement, including the description of the
foundational role of Metchnikoff for the formation of modern science of
aging and longevity and a list of events that are being organized in honor
of that day (the list will be updated)

http://www.longevityforall.org/170th-anniversary-of-elie-metchnikoff-the-founder-of-gerontology-may-15-2015/

As well as a copy of this announcement

http://www.longevityforall.org/may-15-2015-170th-anniversary-of-elie-metchnikoff-the-founder-of-gerontology-an-opportunity-to-promote-aging-and-longevity-research/

Also in Russian

http://www.longevityforall.org/may-15-2015-metchnikoff-day-russian/

And Hebrew

http://www.bioaging.org.il/metchnikoff-day-may-15-hebrew/



Sincerely and thankfully,



IliaStambler, PhD

OutreachCoordinator. International Society on Aging and Disease (ISOAD)

Department of Science, Technology and Society. Bar Ilan University. Israsel

ilia.stambler at gmail.com

972-3-961-4296
http://isoad.org/
http://www.longevityforall.org/
http://www.bioaging.org.il/
http://www.longevityhistory.com





-- 

Ilia Stambler, PhD


Outreach Coordinator. International Society on Aging and Disease - ISOAD
http://isoad.org

Chair. Israeli Longevity Alliance / International Longevity Alliance
(Israel) - ILA http://www.bioaging.org.il

Coordinator. Longevity for All http://www.longevityforall.org

Author. Longevity History. *A History of Life-Extensionism in the Twentieth
Century* http://longevityhistory.com



Email: ilia.stambler at gmail.com

Tel: 972-3-961-4296 / 0522-283-578

Rishon Lezion. Israel
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From painlord2k at libero.it  Wed Apr 29 18:21:35 2015
From: painlord2k at libero.it (Mirco Romanato)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2015 20:21:35 +0200
Subject: [ExI] The Anti-Flynn
In-Reply-To: <00c801d08222$a5c192d0$f144b870$@att.net>
References: <CAAc1gFirYp_5KFcxJYqhBTudfxkNgB7spiEp3ECC3a9GfCZhng@mail.gmail.com>
 <4128968D-0A89-4114-9CE1-FE0DDC84FF00@taramayastales.com>
 <CAO+xQEYeCgc+W2gTHECwdCH8fm9Gk+pwD9qF7fwvQXxECrgGUg@mail.gmail.com>
 <00c801d08222$a5c192d0$f144b870$@att.net>
Message-ID: <5541212F.9030108@libero.it>

Il 29/04/2015 04:17, spike ha scritto:

> *>???**On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace
> ???>???A rap artist as a genius.  Now there's a concept.???..

> My city had an unsolved murder.  Three youths came into a local
> convenience store at 0300, robbed the place of 200 dollars and slew the
> clerk.  They had them on video but they were wearing ski masks and
> hoodies, so there were no leads.  Nearly a year later, the aspiring
> young musicians posted a rap to YouTube which included the lyrics
> ??????Found us a sto, take down dat place, two to da mouf, now it???s a cold
> case?????? 

> The case warmed up immediately, and all four were apprehended by the
> local constabulary, the three rap stars and the driver of the getaway car.

> Commit a murder, get away cleanly, then post a YouTube rap bragging
> about it: genius.

> spike 


I do not like rap. But it is a technique, not to be confused with the
people using it.
There are some music geniuses making rap songs. 99% are not geniuses for
sure.

I agree with Anders that judging the value of inventions is difficult;
the inventor do not work in a vacuum.
The Florentine artists were not working in a desert, their background
was a burgeoning economy and civil struggles. There was a lot of demand
from rich and powerful people for their work. And they were forced by
competition to innovate continuously if they were able.


Now? Is any bureaucratic body administering someone else money able to
make the same wise decision or follow just the "expert opinions" about
what is art and what is not?


-- 
Mirco Romanato


From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Thu Apr 30 04:50:30 2015
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2015 21:50:30 -0700
Subject: [ExI] addiction and alcohol
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB5egrcqQTrg6wb47C+jp=NHHW2aeipuvtt-jOkETA5zOg@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Apr 6, 2015 at 9:34 AM, Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 6, 2015 at 5:00 AM,  William Flynn Wallace
> <foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
snip

>> Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
>
>> Evolution has not had long enough to act on addiction, which is a
>> maladaptive hijacking of a physiological system.
>
> Let me supply a hint.  Every characteristic in living things is the
> result of positive selection unless it is a side effect of something
> that is (or was) under positive selection.
>
> Which is the capacity to be addicted?  Direct or a side effect?

It was either to easy a question or too hard.

Addition is a side effect of substances that activate the brain reward
system by being similar to natural brain reward chemicals.  Given the
relatively low percentage of the population that can be addicted at
all, makes it likely that the ability to be addicted is under
selection.

Alcohol is another substance that has been with some groups of people
long enough to have weeded most of the genes that make people
susceptible.  Peoples with no history of exposure to alcohol do poorly
when it becomes available.

It would be politically incorrect to study the subject, however
informal information makes a case that the drop in some groups
incidence of addiction to alcohol can be accounted for by changes in
gene frequencies over the last few generations.


From stathisp at gmail.com  Thu Apr 30 06:32:42 2015
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2015 16:32:42 +1000
Subject: [ExI] addiction and alcohol
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB5egrcqQTrg6wb47C+jp=NHHW2aeipuvtt-jOkETA5zOg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB5egrcqQTrg6wb47C+jp=NHHW2aeipuvtt-jOkETA5zOg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAH=2ypX0aL_4S8J6wvLLiBcgzhYJ-T0VHZ2V3APEP04pA8052A@mail.gmail.com>

On 30 April 2015 at 14:50, Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 6, 2015 at 9:34 AM, Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, Apr 6, 2015 at 5:00 AM,  William Flynn Wallace
>> <foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
> snip
>
>>> Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
>>
>>> Evolution has not had long enough to act on addiction, which is a
>>> maladaptive hijacking of a physiological system.
>>
>> Let me supply a hint.  Every characteristic in living things is the
>> result of positive selection unless it is a side effect of something
>> that is (or was) under positive selection.
>>
>> Which is the capacity to be addicted?  Direct or a side effect?
>
> It was either to easy a question or too hard.
>
> Addition is a side effect of substances that activate the brain reward
> system by being similar to natural brain reward chemicals.  Given the
> relatively low percentage of the population that can be addicted at
> all, makes it likely that the ability to be addicted is under
> selection.
>
> Alcohol is another substance that has been with some groups of people
> long enough to have weeded most of the genes that make people
> susceptible.  Peoples with no history of exposure to alcohol do poorly
> when it becomes available.
>
> It would be politically incorrect to study the subject, however
> informal information makes a case that the drop in some groups
> incidence of addiction to alcohol can be accounted for by changes in
> gene frequencies over the last few generations.

Getting old and weak is maladaptive, but evolution has not eliminated
ageing because people reproduce before age affects their ability to do
so. It could be the same with addiction.


-- 
Stathis Papaioannou


From ipbrians at simplyweb.net  Thu Apr 30 15:27:53 2015
From: ipbrians at simplyweb.net (Ivor Peter Brians)
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2015 08:27:53 -0700
Subject: [ExI] New Subscriber Introduction
Message-ID: <F0C22E71-304B-4F5B-AA99-9D838E8D4E37@simplyweb.net>

After having earned my keep for some time through trade in an inefficient marketplace and creating nothing lasting, I find that I now desire to share in the dialogue regarding our self-directed evolution.

I've been subscribed to this forum for some time but have only lurked in the background, observing until now. I believe that I understand the protocol and rules sufficiently.

My interests as related to this forum are the social aspects of this early stage of our extropian and transhuman path. This, because our propensity for war and other emotion based destructive tendencies will certainly impede if not prevent our progress. 

In the spare time that I can eek out I am working at two blogs and a philosophical sci-fi novel related to what I see as a new paradigm of humanity.

I hope that I may have something worthwhile to add to the discussion here. 

One can easily find me on Wordpress and Twitter

Best regards,
Ivor Peter Brians


From spike66 at att.net  Thu Apr 30 17:23:35 2015
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2015 10:23:35 -0700
Subject: [ExI] New Subscriber Introduction
In-Reply-To: <F0C22E71-304B-4F5B-AA99-9D838E8D4E37@simplyweb.net>
References: <F0C22E71-304B-4F5B-AA99-9D838E8D4E37@simplyweb.net>
Message-ID: <01ca01d0836a$66c5b770$34512650$@att.net>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf
Of Ivor Peter Brians

...

>...My interests as related to this forum are the social aspects of this
early stage of our extropian and transhuman path. This, because our
propensity for war and other emotion based destructive tendencies will
certainly impede if not prevent our progress. 

>...In the spare time that I can eek out I am working at two blogs and a
philosophical sci-fi novel related to what I see as a new paradigm of
humanity.

>...One can easily find me on Wordpress and Twitter

Best regards,
Ivor Peter Brians
_______________________________________________


Welcome Ivor.  Feel free to tell us more about Ivor, or not if you prefer,
such as where are you from, where are you going, if you are formally trained
in something or are a professional something so if we need a hipster in that
area we know the man to see, that sorta thing.

spike



From spike66 at att.net  Thu Apr 30 18:17:21 2015
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2015 11:17:21 -0700
Subject: [ExI] New Subscriber Introduction
In-Reply-To: <01ca01d0836a$66c5b770$34512650$@att.net>
References: <F0C22E71-304B-4F5B-AA99-9D838E8D4E37@simplyweb.net>
 <01ca01d0836a$66c5b770$34512650$@att.net>
Message-ID: <01f501d08371$ea15e170$be41a450$@att.net>




-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf
Of Ivor Peter Brians

...

>>...My interests as related to this forum are the social aspects of this
early stage of our extropian and transhuman path...
Best regards,
Ivor Peter Brians

ipbrians at simplyweb.net
_______________________________________________


>...Welcome Ivor.  Feel free to tell us more about Ivor, or not if you
prefer, such as where are you from, where are you going, if you are formally
trained in something or are a professional something so if we need a hipster
in that area we know the man to see, that sorta thing.

spike

_______________________________________________


Funny story for you Ivor:

On the ExI group, I keep in mind a vague idea of who are our hipsters in
what areas.  I know if I have any question on medical stuff, we have Dr.
Smigrodzki, for data security, Harvey Newstrom, for pretty much anything you
want to know, we have the omni-hipster Anders Sandberg who either knows the
answer or knows the cat who knows the answer.

When I saw your email @ ipbrians I read it as ipbrains, and immediately
concluded OK cool now if I have any intellectual property questions, we will
have our own local brains in that area.  Imagine your getting a note: Hey
Ivor, I want to get a software patent, where should I look?  You might
answer:  How the heck should I know?  I am a proctologist, not a lawyer.

{8^D

spike