[ExI] Bell's Inequality
atymes at gmail.com
Sat Dec 31 22:07:30 UTC 2016
On Sat, Dec 31, 2016 at 1:30 AM, Jason Resch <jasonresch at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 30, 2016 at 11:10 PM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Here is the core of our disagreement. Superdeterminism - in ways that
>> do not violate free will - seems more likely than MWI, to me.
> Interesting, I would like to know what about MWI you find so unlikely.
The MW portion. It posits all these other worlds/realities/whatever
that just so happen to be perfectly locked away from any actual
measurement - suggestive of a theory that was specifically made to be
>> > It also seems like it would require math itself to be superdetermined,
>> > what
>> > if I chose what measurements to make based on the digits of Pi? Would Pi
>> > then be superdetermined? Or only my decision to use Pi to guide my
>> > measurements?
>> The latter, just like our distant ancestors' eventual collective
>> choice to use a base-10 numbering system in which values such as pi
>> would be expressed. Pi itself is not affected by your choice.
> But once Pi is chosen, it offers infinite digits beyond my or any physical
> thing's control. Are physical outcomes now superdetermined for all eternity
> to follow Pi now, based on a choice someone made thousands of years ago?
Yes and no.
Yes in that physical outcomes in the future are in part a result of
past choices in general. This has nothing to do with pi. For
example, this email could only have happened because you chose to
respond to my previous email; had you not, I would have had nothing to
respond to. And once I send this email, it will always have been true
from that point on that I sent this email; all outcomes from then on
will be in a world where that happened. Even millions or billions of
years ago, all choices will be made in a universe with that event in
(I hesitate to say "based on" because this is a trivial thing that is
highly unlikely to substantially influence any of those future
decisions - but any that do care whether I sent this email, will be
based on it. You could even say they will be superdetermined to have
been based on it, if you wish; it's redundant, but still true.)
No in that what the value of pi is, was determined long before the
Earth was formed, let alone before any human was around to make
choices. Anything about the exact value of pi is not "based on a
choice someone made thousands of years ago", but is instead based on
something older than our universe. So far as we know, nothing caused
the ratio of a circle's circumference to its diameter (which we call
"pi") to have the value that it has.
This is true of math in general: the relations and equations were
always there, even if we were not around to discover them until the
past several thousand years. In that sense, math can be considered to
be superdetermined even if MWI is true: going all the way back to the
Big Bang, where MWI collapses to a single world, math was already
there, and remains unchanged (even if observers' expressions of it
differ) throughout all the multiple worlds.
> Please explain. MWI is the simplest theory of QM we know of that is
> compatible with all observations.
Superdeterminism is simpler than MWI, and is compatible with all observations.
> What this means: the infinite minds and observations are already out there,
That it leads to assuming this sort of thing, is why MWI is more complex.
More information about the extropy-chat