From jasonresch at gmail.com  Sat Oct  1 21:33:44 2016
From: jasonresch at gmail.com (Jason Resch)
Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2016 16:33:44 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Transhumanist Party
Message-ID: <CA+BCJUhOFC=XmvKJXzXaS88OR6q_6VjZh4cYVARHi0BGj4Hx8A@mail.gmail.com>

http://www.zoltanistvan.com/
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From atymes at gmail.com  Sun Oct  2 03:09:01 2016
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2016 20:09:01 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Transhumanist Party
In-Reply-To: <CA+BCJUhOFC=XmvKJXzXaS88OR6q_6VjZh4cYVARHi0BGj4Hx8A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+BCJUhOFC=XmvKJXzXaS88OR6q_6VjZh4cYVARHi0BGj4Hx8A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNRKSW6-imGyD2b_NMCku=b65QxF=O9BCb+0vHNvuTHgCQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Oct 1, 2016 2:35 PM, "Jason Resch" <jasonresch at gmail.com> wrote:
> http://www.zoltanistvan.com/

Yes, and where are their congressional or state candidates?  If they fail
to run any, running a Presidential candidate won't even make a political
point that many will care about.
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From spike66 at att.net  Mon Oct  3 02:43:56 2016
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2016 19:43:56 -0700
Subject: [ExI] wooohooo!  no-steering-wheel cars ok in california
Message-ID: <001401d21d1f$fd4cb4a0$f7e61de0$@att.net>

 

 

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-autonomous-vehicle-california-20160
930-snap-story.html

 

 

 


California opens pathway for cars that lack steering wheel




A driver, right, gets his hands off of the steering wheel of an autonomous
vehicle during its test drive in Singapore. (Associated Press)

Associated Press

California regulators have changed course and opened a pathway for the
public to get self-driving cars of the future that lack a steering wheel or
pedals.

It's not going to happen soon, because automakers and some tech companies
are still testing prototypes.

ADVERTISING

But, in a shift, the state's Department of Motor Vehicles said in a revision
of draft regulations released late Friday that the most advanced
self-driving cars would no longer be required to have a licensed driver if
federal officials deem them safe enough.

The redrafted regulations will be the subject of a public hearing Oct. 19 in
Sacramento.

The DMV has been wrestling for several years with how to oversee the
emerging technology. In December, it released an initial draft of
regulations that required a licensed driver.

In December, the agency released an initial draft of self-driving car
regulations that required a licensed driver in any self-driving vehicle. The
industry reacted with great disappointment, as the ultimate vision of many
companies is a car that has no steering wheel or pedals. That approach is
based on the argument that humans are not very good at driving, and anyway
cannot be relied on as a backup to a car that typically drives itself but
might fail in a way that required a person in the driver's seat who might be
distracted or even asleep to snap to attention.

The DMV's new document coincides with the release last week of a 112-page
federal proposal under which any self-driving car should pass a 15-point
safety assessment before the public can get ahold of it. Among other things,
the assessment asks automakers to document how the car detects and avoids
objects and pedestrians, how hardened it is against cyberattacks and how its
backup systems will cope should the software fail. In incorporating the
federal approach, California dropped a proposal that a third-party company
certify the safety of self-driving cars.

The new draft regulations released Friday include several other provisions.
Among them is wording that would prohibit advertising vehicles with lower
levels of automation - such as Tesla Motors' Autopilot, which on divided
highways can keep a car's lane, brake and accelerate on the understanding
that a person is paying attention all the time - from being advertised as
"autonomous" or "self-driving."

The company that stands to gain the most from the state's embrace of
vehicles without a wheel or pedals is Alphabet, where the Google
self-driving project envisions cars that allow no human control other than a
start and emergency stop button. A spokesman for the Google project did not
have a comment Friday on the changes to the proposed regulations.

 

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From ginakathleenmiller at gmail.com  Mon Oct  3 03:03:04 2016
From: ginakathleenmiller at gmail.com (Gina Miller)
Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2016 21:03:04 -0600
Subject: [ExI] My new digital art: a Medical NANOROBOT Concept piece
Message-ID: <CAMd8APxL_Bw08R=1heWG6NVUq1CTvQJUr0h9-PCBAcQBUYM-Wg@mail.gmail.com>

Here is my latest - enjoy!


[image: Inline image 2]



-- 
Gina Miller
millermarketing.co
nanoindustries.com
nanogirl.com
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From giulio at gmail.com  Mon Oct  3 05:03:31 2016
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2016 07:03:31 +0200
Subject: [ExI] My new digital art: a Medical NANOROBOT Concept piece
In-Reply-To: <CAMd8APxL_Bw08R=1heWG6NVUq1CTvQJUr0h9-PCBAcQBUYM-Wg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMd8APxL_Bw08R=1heWG6NVUq1CTvQJUr0h9-PCBAcQBUYM-Wg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKTCJye9Li_-sxq216fP49K1qKJhHk_+cSKSVWTGxwt-ypZLow@mail.gmail.com>

Super cool, crisp, elegant and up to date. Can I write a story for a
magazine about this and send you some questions (on the record)?

On Mon, Oct 3, 2016 at 5:03 AM, Gina Miller <ginakathleenmiller at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Here is my latest - enjoy!
>
>
> [image: Inline image 2]
>
>
>
> --
> Gina Miller
> millermarketing.co
> nanoindustries.com
> nanogirl.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From pharos at gmail.com  Mon Oct  3 15:28:04 2016
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2016 16:28:04 +0100
Subject: [ExI] wooohooo! no-steering-wheel cars ok in california
In-Reply-To: <001401d21d1f$fd4cb4a0$f7e61de0$@att.net>
References: <001401d21d1f$fd4cb4a0$f7e61de0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAL_armgBUwWYMuOkYU+QafC+LWEtCFwBhBCA7KhnCpsQUjDA0A@mail.gmail.com>

On 3 October 2016 at 03:43, spike wrote:
>
> http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-autonomous-vehicle-california-20160930-snap-story.html
>
> California opens pathway for cars that lack steering wheel
>
> California regulators have changed course and opened a pathway for the
> public to get self-driving cars of the future that lack a steering wheel or
> pedals.
>
<snip>

I see an opening for a smartphone app that can give 'expert' driving
instructions to the car.  :)

e.g.
Faster! - Ignore speed limits.
Yellow light-Accelerate! - We'll make it OK.
Run that red light! - There's nothing coming.
Maximum acceleration when lights change! - We can beat the queue.
Ignore Stop sign! - There's nothing coming.
Honk & Flash lights! - To get that car out of the way.
Undertake now! - He won't get out of our way.
Overtake now! - We'll make it OK.
Don't join traffic queue ahead! - Overtake and push in at the front of
the queue.
etc........

BillK


From ginakathleenmiller at gmail.com  Mon Oct  3 22:34:14 2016
From: ginakathleenmiller at gmail.com (Gina Miller)
Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2016 16:34:14 -0600
Subject: [ExI] My new digital art: a Medical NANOROBOT Concept piece
In-Reply-To: <CAKTCJye9Li_-sxq216fP49K1qKJhHk_+cSKSVWTGxwt-ypZLow@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMd8APxL_Bw08R=1heWG6NVUq1CTvQJUr0h9-PCBAcQBUYM-Wg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTCJye9Li_-sxq216fP49K1qKJhHk_+cSKSVWTGxwt-ypZLow@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMd8APyaK=XNH724c13LH9bzf-D89D1oGfqW8sscKDUgDnOi-w@mail.gmail.com>

Could you send more details to my personal email:
ginakathleenmiller at gmail.com

Thanks!

On Sun, Oct 2, 2016 at 11:03 PM, Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:

> Super cool, crisp, elegant and up to date. Can I write a story for a
> magazine about this and send you some questions (on the record)?
>
> On Mon, Oct 3, 2016 at 5:03 AM, Gina Miller <ginakathleenmiller at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Here is my latest - enjoy!
>>
>>
>> [image: Inline image 2]
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Gina Miller
>> millermarketing.co
>> nanoindustries.com
>> nanogirl.com
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>


-- 
Gina Miller
millermarketing.co
nanoindustries.com
nanogirl.com
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From anders at aleph.se  Mon Oct  3 07:43:21 2016
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders)
Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2016 08:43:21 +0100
Subject: [ExI] My new digital art: a Medical NANOROBOT Concept piece
In-Reply-To: <CAKTCJye9Li_-sxq216fP49K1qKJhHk_+cSKSVWTGxwt-ypZLow@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMd8APxL_Bw08R=1heWG6NVUq1CTvQJUr0h9-PCBAcQBUYM-Wg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTCJye9Li_-sxq216fP49K1qKJhHk_+cSKSVWTGxwt-ypZLow@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <209cc31d-d011-c66f-6acb-41318cd6d7c9@aleph.se>

On 2016-10-03 06:03, Giulio Prisco wrote:
> Super cool, crisp, elegant and up to date. Can I write a story for a 
> magazine about this and send you some questions (on the record)?

Agreed. But I wonder about the propulsion system? At that scale jets are 
not possible, you need to use cilia.

Sonia Contera (one of our local professors of nanotechnology) is working 
on a book, and I listened to her talk yesterday. It is pretty clear that 
real nanomachines will look weirdly organic rather than Apple smooth 
plastic.

For presentation purposes this might or might not matter, depending on 
audience.

-- 
Dr Anders Sandberg
Future of Humanity Institute
Oxford Martin School
Oxford University



From spike66 at att.net  Tue Oct  4 14:39:04 2016
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2016 07:39:04 -0700
Subject: [ExI] My new digital art: a Medical NANOROBOT Concept piece
In-Reply-To: <209cc31d-d011-c66f-6acb-41318cd6d7c9@aleph.se>
References: <CAMd8APxL_Bw08R=1heWG6NVUq1CTvQJUr0h9-PCBAcQBUYM-Wg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTCJye9Li_-sxq216fP49K1qKJhHk_+cSKSVWTGxwt-ypZLow@mail.gmail.com>
 <209cc31d-d011-c66f-6acb-41318cd6d7c9@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <005901d21e4d$0eae3a60$2c0aaf20$@att.net>




>...Agreed. But I wonder about the propulsion system? At that scale jets 
>are not possible, you need to use cilia...
...-- Dr Anders Sandberg
_______________________________________________

Ja.  In engineering school we do so many calculations on the meter scale we
develop intuitions based on that range that we sometimes forget how
different things are on the micrometer scale.  Up here, gravity dominates
everything; down there, electrostatic forces run the government.

We could imagine an engineering specialty where all the structures are
designed at the micron scale.  They wouldn't worry about HVAC any more than
current mechanical engineers worry about the water supply to the building or
the local waste processing plant (other engineers take care of all that
somehow.)  

If one does calculations every day on the micron scale, useful intuitions
will develop naturally.  When we hear the term "wild beast" we think bear,
racoon, ardvaark or something.  The micron-scale engineer would think
amoeba.

spike



From johnkclark at gmail.com  Tue Oct  4 15:43:42 2016
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2016 11:43:42 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Tweet Storm
Message-ID: <CAJPayv06gT59Jjp6nQwVSEqPS8+8Kv4Cjx4Hh9RAVZNttn5m_w@mail.gmail.com>

?In light of ?Donald Trump's hysterical tweet avalanche over trivialities
like a fat Miss Universe it might be wise to look back on something Donald
said about a month ago. Some Iranian sailors on small boats came close to
the US Navy fleet and made rude hand gestures. The fleet commander, being a
professional who thought with his brain and not his glands, of course did
nothing. Donald however was outraged over the inaction, he made it clear
that when he becomes president things like that mean war:

*"with Iran, when they circle our beautiful destroyers with their little
boats and they make gestures that our people -- that they shouldn't be
allowed to make, they will be shot out of the water"*

?Choosing a president is completely different from choosing a governor or a
senator or any other elected official because your continued physical
existence for the next 4 years will be a function of Donald Trump's
judgement and emotional stability. Right now when Donald gets angry over
hand gestures and fat beauty queens at 3am all he can do is send mad
tweets,  but when he's the Fleet Admiral's boss he can do a lot more. Think
about it.

And think about this too,  the current betting odds give Jill Stein almost
no chance of becoming president, but her odds are twice as good as Gary
(what is Aleppo?) Johnson.

  John K Clark
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Tue Oct  4 16:02:31 2016
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2016 12:02:31 -0400
Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?WikiLeaks_October_surprise=E2=80=8B_that_was_supp?=
	=?utf-8?b?b3NlZCB0byBkZXZhc3RhdGXigIsg4oCLQ2xpbnRvbiDigItpcyBhIGZs?=
	=?utf-8?b?b3DigIs=?=
Message-ID: <CAJPayv0bVu8GhM+YWcOU5mqxT81_3DGdq1rmGVc7sX6fSgHieA@mail.gmail.com>

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/10/04/trump-backers-feel-played-as-wikileaks-fails-to-come-through-on-october-surprise/

?  John K Clark?
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From spike66 at att.net  Tue Oct  4 16:05:30 2016
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2016 09:05:30 -0700
Subject: [ExI]
	=?utf-8?q?WikiLeaks_October_surprise=E2=80=8B_that_was_supp?=
	=?utf-8?b?b3NlZCB0byBkZXZhc3RhdGXigIsg4oCLQ2xpbnRvbiDigItpcyBhIGZs?=
	=?utf-8?b?b3DigIs=?=
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv0bVu8GhM+YWcOU5mqxT81_3DGdq1rmGVc7sX6fSgHieA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv0bVu8GhM+YWcOU5mqxT81_3DGdq1rmGVc7sX6fSgHieA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <003c01d21e59$21c8b510$655a1f30$@att.net>

 

 

From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of John Clark
Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2016 9:03 AM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: [ExI] WikiLeaks October surprise? that was supposed to devastate? ?Clinton ?is a flop?

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/10/04/trump-backers-feel-played-as-wikileaks-fails-to-come-through-on-october-surprise/

 

?  John K Clark?

 

 

 

The October Surprise was yesterday.  Mrs. Clinton proposed murdering Julian Assange, a foreign national, on foreign soil, using US military assets, for the crime of violating US law.  That in itself should be an impeachable offense.  Assange claims his Swedish legal troubles were trumped up by Clinton.  Now that story becomes very credible.

 

spike

 

 

 

 

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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Tue Oct  4 16:54:36 2016
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2016 12:54:36 -0400
Subject: [ExI]
	=?utf-8?q?WikiLeaks_October_surprise=E2=80=8B_that_was_supp?=
	=?utf-8?b?b3NlZCB0byBkZXZhc3RhdGXigIsg4oCLQ2xpbnRvbiDigItpcyBhIGZs?=
	=?utf-8?b?b3DigIs=?=
In-Reply-To: <003c01d21e59$21c8b510$655a1f30$@att.net>
References: <CAJPayv0bVu8GhM+YWcOU5mqxT81_3DGdq1rmGVc7sX6fSgHieA@mail.gmail.com>
 <003c01d21e59$21c8b510$655a1f30$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv3tQDNy6PoeDVA9Uf-EBmtdCbyJGDtsK0mjx06JM0vx8A@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Oct 4, 2016 at 12:05 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:


?> ?
> The October Surprise was yesterday.  Mrs. Clinton proposed murdering
> Julian Assange, a foreign national, on foreign soil, using US military
> assets, for the crime of violating US law.
>
>
?I hear that ?
 Mrs. Clinton
? was also in collusion with space aliens to sell organs from
aborted fetuses to gay ISIS members to help fund her pornography ring to
subvert the morals of American youth.  ?

John K Clark


>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From danust2012 at gmail.com  Tue Oct  4 17:00:26 2016
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2016 10:00:26 -0700
Subject: [ExI]
 =?utf-8?q?WikiLeaks_October_surprise=E2=80=8B_that_was_supp?=
 =?utf-8?b?b3NlZCB0byBkZXZhc3RhdGXigIsg4oCLQ2xpbnRvbiDigItpcyBhIGZsb3A=?=
 =?utf-8?b?4oCL?=
In-Reply-To: <003c01d21e59$21c8b510$655a1f30$@att.net>
References: <CAJPayv0bVu8GhM+YWcOU5mqxT81_3DGdq1rmGVc7sX6fSgHieA@mail.gmail.com>
 <003c01d21e59$21c8b510$655a1f30$@att.net>
Message-ID: <71B2252B-5B82-4CE0-AB00-E4A75344EA9D@gmail.com>

> On Oct 4, 2016, at 9:05 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote: 
> The October Surprise was yesterday.  Mrs. Clinton proposed murdering Julian Assange, a foreign national, on foreign soil, using US military assets, for the crime of violating US law.  That in itself should be an impeachable offense.  Assange claims his Swedish legal troubles were trumped up by Clinton.  Now that story becomes very credible.

Snopes calls this unproven:

http://www.snopes.com/julian-assange-drone-strike/

Does an October surprise have to happen early in October? If not, there's still many days left for one.

But the good news is election madness will be over soon.

Regards,

Dan
  Sample my Kindle books via:
http://author.to/DanUst
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Tue Oct  4 16:38:26 2016
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2016 12:38:26 -0400
Subject: [ExI]
	=?utf-8?q?WikiLeaks_October_surprise=E2=80=8B_that_was_supp?=
	=?utf-8?b?b3NlZCB0byBkZXZhc3RhdGXigIsg4oCLQ2xpbnRvbiDigItpcyBhIGZs?=
	=?utf-8?b?b3DigIs=?=
In-Reply-To: <003c01d21e59$21c8b510$655a1f30$@att.net>
References: <CAJPayv0bVu8GhM+YWcOU5mqxT81_3DGdq1rmGVc7sX6fSgHieA@mail.gmail.com>
 <003c01d21e59$21c8b510$655a1f30$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv0=b6p7jU-1eaQ0QvkJdjhZrV=MFg0YvZinZneA=T_N0g@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Oct 4, 2016 at 12:05 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:


> ?> ?
> The October Surprise was yesterday.  Mrs. Clinton proposed murdering
> Julian Assange, a foreign national, on foreign soil, using US military
> assets, for the crime of violating US law.
>
>
?I hear that ?
 Mrs. Clinton
? was also in collusion with space aliens to sell organs from
aborted fetuses to gay ISIS members to help fund her pornography ring to
subvert the morals of American youth.  ?

John K Clark


>
>
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From pharos at gmail.com  Wed Oct  5 13:19:16 2016
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2016 14:19:16 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Bees learn to pull a string to get food
Message-ID: <CAL_armhjHea1cXmCYBU13Lt089zwdX=3Z+_uJkX9SvpsjK-o6A@mail.gmail.com>

We know that crows can pull on a string to get a prize, but now bees
can do it as well!

<http://www.popsci.com/watch-bumblebee-tug-string-to-get-lunch>

Quote:
Bumblebees can be taught to yank a string to collect a sweet treat,
scientists reported today in the journal PLOS Biology. Bees also
picked up this ?highly unnatural? way of foraging from watching each
other.

The string-tugging puzzle the team used is often used to test
cognitive abilities in vertebrates, partly because it?s not the type
of behavior most animals would do on their own. Though bees drag
debris and corpses from their nest, they don?t pull objects with the
expectation of getting a snack.

Like other animals, though, the insects could be trained in this task.
A few even figured it out on their own. You can watch one of the
?experienced? bees earn her lunch in the video above. The blue disk is
designed to mimic a flower, with a well of sugar water in the center.
To slide the flower out from under a Plexiglas table, the worker bee
must use her forelegs to grasp and yank the string.

Bumblebees could also learn the trick by observing their peers.
Fifteen of 25 uninformed bees picked the skill up after watching
another bee in action. And a single bee could introduce the
string-pulling technique to a colony, with the skill continuing to
spread even after that bee had died. ?Once one bee knew how to string
pull, over time, most of the foraging bees learned,? wrote the
researchers. ?Learning a non-natural task in bumblebees can spread
culturally through populations.?
------------


BillK



From spike66 at att.net  Wed Oct  5 13:56:33 2016
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2016 06:56:33 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Bees learn to pull a string to get food
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armhjHea1cXmCYBU13Lt089zwdX=3Z+_uJkX9SvpsjK-o6A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armhjHea1cXmCYBU13Lt089zwdX=3Z+_uJkX9SvpsjK-o6A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <003d01d21f10$48f15900$dad40b00$@att.net>


>...On Behalf Of BillK
Subject: [ExI] Bees learn to pull a string to get food

We know that crows can pull on a string to get a prize, but now bees can do it as well!

<http://www.popsci.com/watch-bumblebee-tug-string-to-get-lunch>


Quote:
Bumblebees can be taught to yank a string to collect a sweet treat, scientists reported today in the journal PLOS Biology. Bees also picked up this ?highly unnatural? way of foraging from watching each other...------------BillK

_______________________________________________

Thanks BillK, this is astonishing!

I worked with ants a few years ago trying to teach them new tricks and had no luck, but I now think the problem might have been bad design of experiment.

Recall I had ants in my fruit tree farming aphids.  They form trails on the tree trunk, since that species of ant lives in the ground.  I created a barrier, then made a narrow bridge over the barrier.  I made two holes in the bridge through which the ants needed to pass.  They never did learn how to make each hole a one-way road, so they balled up in a huge 
Formicidable traffic jam, of mandibles, thoraxes, mandibles and abdomens.  Had they not been all female, one would think it was intentional, an orgy of some sort.

More recently, I looked closer and noticed something I had missed before.  If an ant colony has a prey item they are hauling back to the nest along a narrow path, they don't form two lanes; they form three.  The ants with food returning home get the central lane, the empty-handed out-bounders go to either side.  If you think it over, that makes complete sense they would evolve that way.

Were I to repeat the experiment, I might try to create a three-hole bridge with the center hole larger.

Bees: those gals get all the breaks.  They can fly, they can make honey.  Live in a clean environment, and eat flower pollen.  They can sting (once.)  They are even very beautiful bugs.  Now we learn they learn.  Bees have it all.

spike




From danust2012 at gmail.com  Wed Oct  5 15:27:31 2016
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2016 08:27:31 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Bees learn to pull a string to get food
In-Reply-To: <003d01d21f10$48f15900$dad40b00$@att.net>
References: <CAL_armhjHea1cXmCYBU13Lt089zwdX=3Z+_uJkX9SvpsjK-o6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <003d01d21f10$48f15900$dad40b00$@att.net>
Message-ID: <6F9A072F-741C-41E4-BD23-88905F4D53BD@gmail.com>

On Oct 5, 2016, at 6:56 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> Bees: those gals get all the breaks.  They can fly, they can make honey.  Live in a clean environment, and eat flower pollen.  They can sting (once.)  They are even very beautiful bugs.  Now we learn they learn.  Bees have it all.

Some bees, including bumblebees, can sting more than once. I believe it depends on the stinger being barbed or not.

Regards,

Dan
  Sample my Kindle books via:
http://author.to/DanUst
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From giulio at gmail.com  Wed Oct  5 15:55:52 2016
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2016 17:55:52 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Nobel in Chemistry to nanotech research
Message-ID: <CAKTCJyc2Tbdk4b+eaedWMF-xX4Bpw4S76LooT5LhCXmcs_NZcQ@mail.gmail.com>

See George's story:
http://gizmodo.com/nobel-prize-for-chemistry-awarded-to-creators-of-the-wo-1787435570

What do the new Nobel laureates think of radical Drexlerian nanotech,
assemblers, self-replication and all that?


From spike66 at att.net  Wed Oct  5 16:01:47 2016
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2016 09:01:47 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Bees learn to pull a string to get food
In-Reply-To: <6F9A072F-741C-41E4-BD23-88905F4D53BD@gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armhjHea1cXmCYBU13Lt089zwdX=3Z+_uJkX9SvpsjK-o6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <003d01d21f10$48f15900$dad40b00$@att.net>
 <6F9A072F-741C-41E4-BD23-88905F4D53BD@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <003001d21f21$c78cc900$56a65b00$@att.net>

 

 

From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org]

Subject: Re: [ExI] Bees learn to pull a string to get food

 

On Oct 5, 2016, at 6:56 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net <mailto:spike66 at att.net> > wrote:

Bees: those gals get all the breaks.  ....  They can sting (once.)  ?

 

Some bees, including bumblebees, can sting more than once. I believe it depends on the stinger being barbed or not.

 

Regards,





Dan

 

 

Ja, but it is a trade-off.  A bumblebee sting doesn?t amount to much of anything.  Half-hearted.  No venom that I could tell.  An honest fire ant can do better.  I am not the best judge of it however: at the time, I was working in bees and had developed a tolerance for honeybee venom, so if bumblebees have a similar chemical structure (and why wouldn?t they?) then I might not have noticed it.  

 

Another point: if you get a honeybee sting and don?t remove the stinger, you can watch the torn-away stinger pulsating every few seconds, which inject venom into its victim.  Unless you are doing it intentionally (for the medicinal properties of bee venom) I do not recommend it.

 

spike

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From ginakathleenmiller at gmail.com  Wed Oct  5 16:18:03 2016
From: ginakathleenmiller at gmail.com (Gina Miller)
Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2016 10:18:03 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Nobel in Chemistry to nanotech research
In-Reply-To: <CAKTCJyc2Tbdk4b+eaedWMF-xX4Bpw4S76LooT5LhCXmcs_NZcQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKTCJyc2Tbdk4b+eaedWMF-xX4Bpw4S76LooT5LhCXmcs_NZcQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMd8APxcMfn2hxZuUneZH+=+iAL_4rWCgJOwQ=mbDPFGa0N66g@mail.gmail.com>

Stoddart and Leigh actually won the 2007 Feyman prize (which Foresight has
been presenting since 1993). I was there at the Foresight (technical)
conference when they received the prizes. Stoddart won the experiment
category and Leigh (Stoddarts PhD student) won the theory prize.

-- 
Gina "Nanogirl" Miller
millermarketing.co
nanoindustries.com
nanogirl.com


On Wed, Oct 5, 2016 at 9:55 AM, Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:

> See George's story:
> http://gizmodo.com/nobel-prize-for-chemistry-awarded-
> to-creators-of-the-wo-1787435570
>
> What do the new Nobel laureates think of radical Drexlerian nanotech,
> assemblers, self-replication and all that?
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From giulio at gmail.com  Wed Oct  5 17:15:31 2016
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2016 19:15:31 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Nobel in Chemistry to nanotech research
In-Reply-To: <CAMd8APxcMfn2hxZuUneZH+=+iAL_4rWCgJOwQ=mbDPFGa0N66g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKTCJyc2Tbdk4b+eaedWMF-xX4Bpw4S76LooT5LhCXmcs_NZcQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMd8APxcMfn2hxZuUneZH+=+iAL_4rWCgJOwQ=mbDPFGa0N66g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9301AB0E-D422-4AC6-9874-F6EF0F676DDD@gmail.com>

Wow interesting. I am writing an article about how the new Nobels vindicate Drexlerian nanotech (see also personal email just sent). Could you share some recollections of the 2007 Foresight event?

> On Oct 5, 2016, at 6:18 PM, Gina Miller <ginakathleenmiller at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Stoddart and Leigh actually won the 2007 Feyman prize (which Foresight has been presenting since 1993). I was there at the Foresight (technical) conference when they received the prizes. Stoddart won the experiment category and Leigh (Stoddarts PhD student) won the theory prize. 
> 
> -- 
> Gina "Nanogirl" Miller
> millermarketing.co
> nanoindustries.com
> nanogirl.com
> 
> 
>> On Wed, Oct 5, 2016 at 9:55 AM, Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:
>> See George's story:
>> http://gizmodo.com/nobel-prize-for-chemistry-awarded-to-creators-of-the-wo-1787435570
>> 
>> What do the new Nobel laureates think of radical Drexlerian nanotech,
>> assemblers, self-replication and all that?
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Wed Oct  5 18:10:40 2016
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2016 13:10:40 -0500
Subject: [ExI] who woulda think it?
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZeg2GDRW=eSUuCG3BA9AU1xfFUJxYs7Ac5gb9_R+L_Nw@mail.gmail.com>

Went on Amazon looking for a pocket knife.  Found one described as a 64 Gb
knife.

That's right:  knife was equipped with a thumb drive.

WWTTON?  (What will they think of next?)

bill w
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From dsunley at gmail.com  Wed Oct  5 18:47:53 2016
From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley)
Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2016 12:47:53 -0600
Subject: [ExI] who woulda think it?
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEZeg2GDRW=eSUuCG3BA9AU1xfFUJxYs7Ac5gb9_R+L_Nw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEZeg2GDRW=eSUuCG3BA9AU1xfFUJxYs7Ac5gb9_R+L_Nw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEptUkSBMgb2snJDdheP1DioFtddSKJwt85qjOPLwZxUi9x7TA@mail.gmail.com>

Yeah, Swiss Army have been selling those for 10-15 years now.

The older ones are all comically small (4-8 MB), in keeping with the memory
prices of ye olde days gone bye.

I never really saw the point of taking a basic tool, with heirloom
potential - it will be precisely as functional a hundred years from now as
it is the day you bought it, if it's reasonably well taken care of - and
intimately integrating it with a component that will be comically obsolete
before the decade is out, and that is likely to become completely
nonfunctional within a decade under normal day-to-day wear and tear.

On Wed, Oct 5, 2016 at 12:10 PM, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Went on Amazon looking for a pocket knife.  Found one described as a 64 Gb
> knife.
>
> That's right:  knife was equipped with a thumb drive.
>
> WWTTON?  (What will they think of next?)
>
> bill w
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From msd001 at gmail.com  Wed Oct  5 20:22:50 2016
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2016 16:22:50 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Bees learn to pull a string to get food
In-Reply-To: <003d01d21f10$48f15900$dad40b00$@att.net>
References: <CAL_armhjHea1cXmCYBU13Lt089zwdX=3Z+_uJkX9SvpsjK-o6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <003d01d21f10$48f15900$dad40b00$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAOJFdbLgUmmZvpn3Ze-o+JF55r59moLU3MNVc_S54-zA=W5U5Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Oct 5, 2016 at 9:56 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>
> Bees: those gals get all the breaks.  They can fly, they can make honey.  Live in a clean environment, and eat flower pollen.  They can sting (once.)  They are even very beautiful bugs.  Now we learn they learn.  Bees have it all.
>


... including the knees, which I understand to be quite an accomplishment.

or was that a bee's sneeze?  it would be unfortunate to be a bee with
a pollen allergy.


From msd001 at gmail.com  Wed Oct  5 20:31:45 2016
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2016 16:31:45 -0400
Subject: [ExI] who woulda think it?
In-Reply-To: <CAEptUkSBMgb2snJDdheP1DioFtddSKJwt85qjOPLwZxUi9x7TA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEZeg2GDRW=eSUuCG3BA9AU1xfFUJxYs7Ac5gb9_R+L_Nw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEptUkSBMgb2snJDdheP1DioFtddSKJwt85qjOPLwZxUi9x7TA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOJFdb+LE=6=vLW4f097yV7tjt32QxzghK-dRRJM4_LWw1YA9Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Oct 5, 2016 at 2:47 PM, Darin Sunley <dsunley at gmail.com> wrote:
> Yeah, Swiss Army have been selling those for 10-15 years now.
>
> The older ones are all comically small (4-8 MB), in keeping with the memory
> prices of ye olde days gone bye.
>
> I never really saw the point of taking a basic tool, with heirloom potential
> - it will be precisely as functional a hundred years from now as it is the
> day you bought it, if it's reasonably well taken care of - and intimately
> integrating it with a component that will be comically obsolete before the
> decade is out, and that is likely to become completely nonfunctional within
> a decade under normal day-to-day wear and tear.

If the data was write-once, it could provide for some form of
provenance.  64gb is plenty of space for a decent record of owners
over even a hundred years.  If the data is a url with an object
identifier, owners can add themselves to the "permanent" record that
lives in the cloud.

yeah, "Internet of Things" is a thing.  we might as well get used to it. :)


From ginakathleenmiller at gmail.com  Wed Oct  5 22:37:16 2016
From: ginakathleenmiller at gmail.com (Gina Miller)
Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2016 16:37:16 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Nobel in Chemistry to nanotech research
In-Reply-To: <9301AB0E-D422-4AC6-9874-F6EF0F676DDD@gmail.com>
References: <CAKTCJyc2Tbdk4b+eaedWMF-xX4Bpw4S76LooT5LhCXmcs_NZcQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMd8APxcMfn2hxZuUneZH+=+iAL_4rWCgJOwQ=mbDPFGa0N66g@mail.gmail.com>
 <9301AB0E-D422-4AC6-9874-F6EF0F676DDD@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMd8APy+R7+LatFwr7TGY3sCfEXCpecxt4_S9F0JFmBnr+QOfQ@mail.gmail.com>

You can read about it here:

https://www.foresight.org/nanodot/?p=2576


On Wed, Oct 5, 2016 at 11:15 AM, Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:

> Wow interesting. I am writing an article about how the new Nobels
> vindicate Drexlerian nanotech (see also personal email just sent). Could
> you share some recollections of the 2007 Foresight event?
>
> On Oct 5, 2016, at 6:18 PM, Gina Miller <ginakathleenmiller at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Stoddart and Leigh actually won the 2007 Feyman prize (which Foresight has
> been presenting since 1993). I was there at the Foresight (technical)
> conference when they received the prizes. Stoddart won the experiment
> category and Leigh (Stoddarts PhD student) won the theory prize.
>
> --
> Gina "Nanogirl" Miller
> millermarketing.co
> nanoindustries.com
> nanogirl.com
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 5, 2016 at 9:55 AM, Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> See George's story:
>> http://gizmodo.com/nobel-prize-for-chemistry-awarded-to-
>> creators-of-the-wo-1787435570
>>
>> What do the new Nobel laureates think of radical Drexlerian nanotech,
>> assemblers, self-replication and all that?
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From atymes at gmail.com  Thu Oct  6 00:21:26 2016
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2016 17:21:26 -0700
Subject: [ExI] who woulda think it?
In-Reply-To: <CAEptUkSBMgb2snJDdheP1DioFtddSKJwt85qjOPLwZxUi9x7TA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEZeg2GDRW=eSUuCG3BA9AU1xfFUJxYs7Ac5gb9_R+L_Nw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEptUkSBMgb2snJDdheP1DioFtddSKJwt85qjOPLwZxUi9x7TA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNQkMmFYdcdgF2G_U5JZ7zj_NYrjhUHWa3qfz3Sfjd-vqw@mail.gmail.com>

On Oct 5, 2016 11:49 AM, "Darin Sunley" <dsunley at gmail.com> wrote:
> I never really saw the point of taking a basic tool, with heirloom
potential - it will be precisely as functional a hundred years from now as
it is the day you bought it, if it's reasonably well taken care of - and
intimately integrating it with a component that will be comically obsolete
before the decade is out, and that is likely to become completely
nonfunctional within a decade under normal day-to-day wear and tear.

Planned obsolescence: the point is to dupe those dupes who don't think of a
thing's use years from now, and then sell essentially the same thing to
them year after year.

Doesn't mean there's a point for us or anyone we'd advise.
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From steinberg.will at gmail.com  Thu Oct  6 01:20:34 2016
From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg)
Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2016 21:20:34 -0400
Subject: [ExI] who woulda think it?
In-Reply-To: <CAKrqSyHE1qYe2EpOj9EebULf=CvrM_2vmbkcA50DBHgHwqWYCw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEZeg2GDRW=eSUuCG3BA9AU1xfFUJxYs7Ac5gb9_R+L_Nw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEptUkSBMgb2snJDdheP1DioFtddSKJwt85qjOPLwZxUi9x7TA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQkMmFYdcdgF2G_U5JZ7zj_NYrjhUHWa3qfz3Sfjd-vqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyHE1qYe2EpOj9EebULf=CvrM_2vmbkcA50DBHgHwqWYCw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKrqSyF5MW2YsBrzjv-vFnO9hqMFryEAZwSkdPTA2BaMCFg2iA@mail.gmail.com>

There's also something to be said about having a small image file in your
4mb knife, maybe an image of a loved one, akin to a locket.

Ritual is important.
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From danust2012 at gmail.com  Thu Oct  6 04:35:08 2016
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2016 21:35:08 -0700
Subject: [ExI] who woulda think it?
In-Reply-To: <CAKrqSyF5MW2YsBrzjv-vFnO9hqMFryEAZwSkdPTA2BaMCFg2iA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEZeg2GDRW=eSUuCG3BA9AU1xfFUJxYs7Ac5gb9_R+L_Nw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEptUkSBMgb2snJDdheP1DioFtddSKJwt85qjOPLwZxUi9x7TA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQkMmFYdcdgF2G_U5JZ7zj_NYrjhUHWa3qfz3Sfjd-vqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyHE1qYe2EpOj9EebULf=CvrM_2vmbkcA50DBHgHwqWYCw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyF5MW2YsBrzjv-vFnO9hqMFryEAZwSkdPTA2BaMCFg2iA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5C51D6CE-B7D1-4147-B2ED-E381E6B5760B@gmail.com>

> On Oct 5, 2016, at 6:20 PM, Will Steinberg <steinberg.will at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> There's also something to be said about having a small image file in your 4mb knife, maybe an image of a loved one, akin to a locket.
> 
> Ritual is important.
> 

This reminds me of something from Seinfeld episode 140:

https://youtu.be/cBGrpPNcLCo

Regards,

Dan
  Sample my Kindle books via:
http://author.to/DanUst

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From spike66 at att.net  Fri Oct  7 18:12:24 2016
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2016 11:12:24 -0700
Subject: [ExI] unnecessary drama
Message-ID: <002f01d220c6$5ba52a10$12ef7e30$@att.net>

 

I have family on Florida's east coast, so naturally I am paying attention to
the news casts.  The danger has passed the Space Coast with minimal property
damage, no injury or serious fatality.

 

While watching the news, it occurred to me that the newscasters love to get
out in the wind and shout into a microphone while being blown all over, and
half the time one cannot even understand what they are saying, but it
occurred to me that this is all unnecessary drama.  I have a full-face
motorcycle helmet in which I mounted a Bluetooth microphone and speakers
either side, so a biker can talk on the phone or do OK Google inquiries
while travelling 80 mph down the freeway.  I can talk on the phone when the
wind is strong enough to make it uncomfortable to hold my head forward.

 

OK then, now when you view the hurricane newscasts with the brave reporter
being blown all over, note that if the silly yahoo would just put on a
full-face motorcycle helmet rigged with a phone mic, she could report the
news without shouting, could have both hands free to hold onto something
sturdy such as a handrail.  Instead of a big flappy raincoat, if she wore a
sturdy leather riding jacket and leather chaps such as I and plenty of
bikers do, she would have some protection against flying debris and even be
waterproof.  It would reduce the risk of being blown around because riding
gear fits snugly to reduce wind resistance (intentionally (loose clothing is
uncomfortable when it is flapping around in the wind.))  

 

If they really need dramatic footage, a prole could wear proper motorcycle
gear with all the protective advantages and and just hold a flag.  Or she
could wear a thin plastic rain poncho, which could be allowed to tear away
in the wind.

 

One wonders: what if some young reporter is conked by flying debris
real-time live TV, doing something she didn't need to do?  Would they give
up this silly unnecessary practice?

 

News agencies introduce risk to newscasters and degrade broadcast quality in
exchange for drama.  They don't just report the news, they create it.

 

spike

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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Oct  7 20:25:21 2016
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2016 15:25:21 -0500
Subject: [ExI] unnecessary drama
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZk+jS183=pUd_2_z+KYRPbntPqPRj2V-Cahd44g5wnaA@mail.gmail.com>

They don?t just report the news, they create it.



spike


And when was this not so?  Interview subject A, then run to B and ask his
opinion of A, then run back to B to report his take, and so on.  Been going
on forever, eh?   bill w

On Fri, Oct 7, 2016 at 1:12 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

>
>
> I have family on Florida?s east coast, so naturally I am paying attention
> to the news casts.  The danger has passed the Space Coast with minimal
> property damage, no injury or serious fatality.
>
>
>
> While watching the news, it occurred to me that the newscasters love to
> get out in the wind and shout into a microphone while being blown all over,
> and half the time one cannot even understand what they are saying, but it
> occurred to me that this is all unnecessary drama.  I have a full-face
> motorcycle helmet in which I mounted a Bluetooth microphone and speakers
> either side, so a biker can talk on the phone or do OK Google inquiries
> while travelling 80 mph down the freeway.  I can talk on the phone when the
> wind is strong enough to make it uncomfortable to hold my head forward.
>
>
>
> OK then, now when you view the hurricane newscasts with the brave reporter
> being blown all over, note that if the silly yahoo would just put on a
> full-face motorcycle helmet rigged with a phone mic, she could report the
> news without shouting, could have both hands free to hold onto something
> sturdy such as a handrail.  Instead of a big flappy raincoat, if she wore a
> sturdy leather riding jacket and leather chaps such as I and plenty of
> bikers do, she would have some protection against flying debris and even be
> waterproof.  It would reduce the risk of being blown around because riding
> gear fits snugly to reduce wind resistance (intentionally (loose clothing
> is uncomfortable when it is flapping around in the wind.))
>
>
>
> If they really need dramatic footage, a prole could wear proper motorcycle
> gear with all the protective advantages and and just hold a flag.  Or she
> could wear a thin plastic rain poncho, which could be allowed to tear away
> in the wind.
>
>
>
> One wonders: what if some young reporter is conked by flying debris
> real-time live TV, doing something she didn?t need to do?  Would they give
> up this silly unnecessary practice?
>
>
>
> News agencies introduce risk to newscasters and degrade broadcast quality
> in exchange for drama.  They don?t just report the news, they create it.
>
>
>
> spike
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From spike66 at att.net  Fri Oct  7 21:41:42 2016
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2016 14:41:42 -0700
Subject: [ExI] chatbots again
Message-ID: <007e01d220e3$98808430$c9818c90$@att.net>

 

 

Remember talking about this at least a decade ago?  We mentioned again when
Robert passed away over 5 yrs ago: people who knew him well could post stuff
that sounded like what he would write had he been with us still.  Then we
went on to discuss creating an Eliza-like device which would have all the
posts he ever made, then come up with a reasonable robo-Robert perhaps.

 

Apparently someone is trying to do it:

 

http://singularityhub.com/2016/10/07/what-happens-when-you-create-a-chatbot-
to-memorialize-a-friend/?utm_source=Singularity+Hub+Newsletter
<http://singularityhub.com/2016/10/07/what-happens-when-you-create-a-chatbot
-to-memorialize-a-friend/?utm_source=Singularity+Hub+Newsletter&utm_campaign
=4983509576-Hub_Daily_Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_f0cf60cdae-4983
509576-57458369>
&utm_campaign=4983509576-Hub_Daily_Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_f0
cf60cdae-4983509576-57458369

 

spike

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From fhb3.evolute at gmail.com  Sat Oct  8 22:21:00 2016
From: fhb3.evolute at gmail.com (Forrest Bennett)
Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2016 15:21:00 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Memorial for Lee Corbin Sunday Oct 16
Message-ID: <CABkqLO7xMRtr5gogcXwFQYGgPVJD+nNSizq3pfpOh6b-GdkfAw@mail.gmail.com>

Hello Everyone,

Lee Corbin died in his house on Aug 18. He is now in cryonic suspension at
Alcor.

We are going to have Lee's memorial service on Sunday October 16th in the
early afternoon. The location will be somewhere within ~20 minutes of where
Lee lived in Santa Clara, CA.

More details on exact time and location soon.

We need help contacting Lee's friends. So far, we have contacted 39 of
them.

If you want to be on LeeCorbin at yahoogroups.com, please contact either: Mark
Newbold <mark at dogfeathers.com> or L. William Bradford <hyades at roadrunner.com
>.

Regards,

Forrest
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Sat Oct  8 23:33:30 2016
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2016 19:33:30 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Memorial for Lee Corbin Sunday Oct 16
In-Reply-To: <CABkqLO7xMRtr5gogcXwFQYGgPVJD+nNSizq3pfpOh6b-GdkfAw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABkqLO7xMRtr5gogcXwFQYGgPVJD+nNSizq3pfpOh6b-GdkfAw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv0VipQveogPQ-v=q7jyHHPJngCfe0-wVaHcVu1uOa97kQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Oct 8, 2016  Forrest Bennett <fhb3.evolute at gmail.com> wrote:

?> ?
> Lee Corbin died in his house on Aug 18.
>

?I'm very sorry to hear that, Lee was a good guy.


?> ?
He is now in cryonic suspension at Alcor.

?At least there is that.

John K Clark.?




>
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From stathisp at gmail.com  Sun Oct  9 01:42:49 2016
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2016 12:42:49 +1100
Subject: [ExI] Memorial for Lee Corbin Sunday Oct 16
In-Reply-To: <CABkqLO7xMRtr5gogcXwFQYGgPVJD+nNSizq3pfpOh6b-GdkfAw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABkqLO7xMRtr5gogcXwFQYGgPVJD+nNSizq3pfpOh6b-GdkfAw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAH=2ypUnAamnLUV_x2myLq7kXZMHPGUzToC-QUtSN8yVE93i-g@mail.gmail.com>

Very sorry to hear this, Lee was a wonderful contributor to this list.

On Sunday, 9 October 2016, Forrest Bennett <fhb3.evolute at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hello Everyone,
>
> Lee Corbin died in his house on Aug 18. He is now in cryonic suspension at
> Alcor.
>
> We are going to have Lee's memorial service on Sunday October 16th in the
> early afternoon. The location will be somewhere within ~20 minutes of where
> Lee lived in Santa Clara, CA.
>
> More details on exact time and location soon.
>
> We need help contacting Lee's friends. So far, we have contacted 39 of
> them.
>
> If you want to be on LeeCorbin at yahoogroups.com
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','LeeCorbin at yahoogroups.com');>, please
> contact either: Mark Newbold <mark at dogfeathers.com
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','mark at dogfeathers.com');>> or L. William
> Bradford <hyades at roadrunner.com
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','hyades at roadrunner.com');>>.
>
> Regards,
>
> Forrest
>
>

-- 
Stathis Papaioannou
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From stathisp at gmail.com  Sun Oct  9 03:44:56 2016
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2016 14:44:56 +1100
Subject: [ExI]  Memorial for Lee Corbin Sunday Oct 16
In-Reply-To: <CAH=2ypUnAamnLUV_x2myLq7kXZMHPGUzToC-QUtSN8yVE93i-g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABkqLO7xMRtr5gogcXwFQYGgPVJD+nNSizq3pfpOh6b-GdkfAw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=2ypUnAamnLUV_x2myLq7kXZMHPGUzToC-QUtSN8yVE93i-g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAH=2ypWSi96-WkdcY+EaGr8CGWcpH_2+n1T0+6ekjxBRTAPE1g@mail.gmail.com>

And under rather awful circumstances, if Google finds the right Lee Corbin
in Santa Clara.

On Sunday, 9 October 2016, Stathis Papaioannou <stathisp at gmail.com
<javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','stathisp at gmail.com');>> wrote:

> Very sorry to hear this, Lee was a wonderful contributor to this list.
>
> On Sunday, 9 October 2016, Forrest Bennett <fhb3.evolute at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hello Everyone,
>>
>> Lee Corbin died in his house on Aug 18. He is now in cryonic suspension
>> at Alcor.
>>
>> We are going to have Lee's memorial service on Sunday October 16th in
>> the early afternoon. The location will be somewhere within ~20 minutes of
>> where Lee lived in Santa Clara, CA.
>>
>> More details on exact time and location soon.
>>
>> We need help contacting Lee's friends. So far, we have contacted 39 of
>> them.
>>
>> If you want to be on LeeCorbin at yahoogroups.com, please contact either:
>> Mark Newbold <mark at dogfeathers.com> or L. William Bradford <
>> hyades at roadrunner.com>.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Forrest
>>
>>
>
> --
> Stathis Papaioannou
>


-- 
Stathis Papaioannou
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From giulio at gmail.com  Sun Oct  9 06:34:14 2016
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2016 08:34:14 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Memorial for Lee Corbin Sunday Oct 16
In-Reply-To: <CAH=2ypWSi96-WkdcY+EaGr8CGWcpH_2+n1T0+6ekjxBRTAPE1g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABkqLO7xMRtr5gogcXwFQYGgPVJD+nNSizq3pfpOh6b-GdkfAw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=2ypUnAamnLUV_x2myLq7kXZMHPGUzToC-QUtSN8yVE93i-g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=2ypWSi96-WkdcY+EaGr8CGWcpH_2+n1T0+6ekjxBRTAPE1g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKTCJycSLOp8t=LWdyzW2-O1TB3=iEks1nkT1AuUJNfW+onjbg@mail.gmail.com>

Awful indeed. Farewell Lee, you will be missed.

On Sun, Oct 9, 2016 at 5:44 AM, Stathis Papaioannou <stathisp at gmail.com> wrote:
> And under rather awful circumstances, if Google finds the right Lee Corbin
> in Santa Clara.
>
>
> On Sunday, 9 October 2016, Stathis Papaioannou <stathisp at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Very sorry to hear this, Lee was a wonderful contributor to this list.
>>
>> On Sunday, 9 October 2016, Forrest Bennett <fhb3.evolute at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hello Everyone,
>>>
>>> Lee Corbin died in his house on Aug 18. He is now in cryonic suspension
>>> at Alcor.
>>>
>>> We are going to have Lee's memorial service on Sunday October 16th in the
>>> early afternoon. The location will be somewhere within ~20 minutes of where
>>> Lee lived in Santa Clara, CA.
>>>
>>> More details on exact time and location soon.
>>>
>>> We need help contacting Lee's friends. So far, we have contacted 39 of
>>> them.
>>>
>>> If you want to be on LeeCorbin at yahoogroups.com, please contact either:
>>> Mark Newbold <mark at dogfeathers.com> or L. William Bradford
>>> <hyades at roadrunner.com>.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Forrest
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Stathis Papaioannou
>
>
>
> --
> Stathis Papaioannou
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>


From giulioprisco at protonmail.ch  Sun Oct  9 07:24:39 2016
From: giulioprisco at protonmail.ch (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2016 03:24:39 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Testing - do you see this message?
Message-ID: <VXUSfbHkZhy3hVFHEui3gKV7EAmdaP5G0HO-3kd86Au2S6cADGJ9ddjFo6wKrabAH4skBEL2IOM8uOYY5EHM733CV7iJDBxF-3lA_fULrbQ=@protonmail.ch>

Test - A couple of months ago messages to the list from Protonmail were put in spam by Gmail. Do you (both Gmail and non-Gmail users) see this message?



--
Giulio Prisco
http://giulioprisco.com/
giulioprisco at protonmail.ch
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From giulio at gmail.com  Sun Oct  9 07:42:06 2016
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2016 09:42:06 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Testing - do you see this message?
In-Reply-To: <VXUSfbHkZhy3hVFHEui3gKV7EAmdaP5G0HO-3kd86Au2S6cADGJ9ddjFo6wKrabAH4skBEL2IOM8uOYY5EHM733CV7iJDBxF-3lA_fULrbQ=@protonmail.ch>
References: <VXUSfbHkZhy3hVFHEui3gKV7EAmdaP5G0HO-3kd86Au2S6cADGJ9ddjFo6wKrabAH4skBEL2IOM8uOYY5EHM733CV7iJDBxF-3lA_fULrbQ=@protonmail.ch>
Message-ID: <CAKTCJyesx8uVqJ7pydctH0Vc4GnzfSm+mk-ZFbCtG+BPKe-uxQ@mail.gmail.com>

Replying from Gmail to make sure everyone sees this. I am subscribed
to the list also with my Protonmail account, but Gmail puts my
messages to the list, sent from Protonmail, in spam. The error message
is:

Why is this message in Spam? It has a from address in protonmail.ch
but has failed protonmail.ch's required tests for authentication.
Learn more

Sent bug report to Protonmail. Doesn't happen with direct messages,
only with messages to this mailing list. I will chech if it happens
with other mailing lists as well. If not, perhaps this could be due to
admin settings in this list?

This is important because I'm trying to switch from Gmail to
Protonmail, and I recommend that you do the same. See here for why.
https://protonmail.com/blog/yahoo-us-intelligence/

On Sun, Oct 9, 2016 at 9:24 AM, Giulio Prisco
<giulioprisco at protonmail.ch> wrote:
> Test - A couple of months ago messages to the list from Protonmail were put
> in spam by Gmail. Do you (both Gmail and non-Gmail users) see this message?
>
> --
> Giulio Prisco
> http://giulioprisco.com/
> giulioprisco at protonmail.ch
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>


From kryonica at gmail.com  Sun Oct  9 07:44:31 2016
From: kryonica at gmail.com (Cryonica)
Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2016 08:44:31 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Testing - do you see this message?
In-Reply-To: <VXUSfbHkZhy3hVFHEui3gKV7EAmdaP5G0HO-3kd86Au2S6cADGJ9ddjFo6wKrabAH4skBEL2IOM8uOYY5EHM733CV7iJDBxF-3lA_fULrbQ=@protonmail.ch>
References: <VXUSfbHkZhy3hVFHEui3gKV7EAmdaP5G0HO-3kd86Au2S6cADGJ9ddjFo6wKrabAH4skBEL2IOM8uOYY5EHM733CV7iJDBxF-3lA_fULrbQ=@protonmail.ch>
Message-ID: <A1F3F8B0-2FE9-43A4-A631-AA498EE055F2@gmail.com>

In Spam folder.
> On 9 Oct 2016, at 08:24, Giulio Prisco <giulioprisco at protonmail.ch> wrote:
> 
> Test - A couple of months ago messages to the list from Protonmail were put in spam by Gmail. Do you (both Gmail and non-Gmail users) see this message?
> 
> --
> Giulio Prisco
> http://giulioprisco.com/
> giulioprisco at protonmail.ch
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat




From giulio at gmail.com  Sun Oct  9 07:49:23 2016
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2016 09:49:23 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Testing - do you see this message?
In-Reply-To: <A1F3F8B0-2FE9-43A4-A631-AA498EE055F2@gmail.com>
References: <VXUSfbHkZhy3hVFHEui3gKV7EAmdaP5G0HO-3kd86Au2S6cADGJ9ddjFo6wKrabAH4skBEL2IOM8uOYY5EHM733CV7iJDBxF-3lA_fULrbQ=@protonmail.ch>
 <A1F3F8B0-2FE9-43A4-A631-AA498EE055F2@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKTCJyeYr5XDQ0RjwyAGP19ssrXrvJDGR8F7_Tpp7702s9L-5A@mail.gmail.com>

New finding: It's not Gmail's fault, it's Protonmail itself ! :

"This email seems to be from a ProtonMail address but came from
outside our system and failed our authentication requirements. It may
be spoofed or improperly forwarded!"

I guess "improperly forwarded" is the key. The problem can be on the
ExI list side or the Protonmail side. Updated bug report to
Protonmail.

On Sun, Oct 9, 2016 at 9:44 AM, Cryonica <kryonica at gmail.com> wrote:
> In Spam folder.
>> On 9 Oct 2016, at 08:24, Giulio Prisco <giulioprisco at protonmail.ch> wrote:
>>
>> Test - A couple of months ago messages to the list from Protonmail were put in spam by Gmail. Do you (both Gmail and non-Gmail users) see this message?
>>
>> --
>> Giulio Prisco
>> http://giulioprisco.com/
>> giulioprisco at protonmail.ch
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From avant at sollegro.com  Sun Oct  9 13:51:25 2016
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2016 06:51:25 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Lee Corbin Memorial
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1475994870.16466.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.1.1475994870.16466.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <3160a980500bedf6f7d74a5636e59ad9.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>

> Message: 12
> Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2016 15:21:00 -0700
> From: Forrest Bennett <fhb3.evolute at gmail.com>
> To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> Subject: [ExI] Memorial for Lee Corbin Sunday Oct 16
> Message-ID:
> <CABkqLO7xMRtr5gogcXwFQYGgPVJD+nNSizq3pfpOh6b-GdkfAw at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
>
> Hello Everyone,
>
>
> Lee Corbin died in his house on Aug 18. He is now in cryonic suspension
> at Alcor.

I am saddened to hear this. He was fun to debate with although frustrating
at times. I have missed him since he stopped posting to the list. Now I
guess I will miss him without the hope that he would post again. At least
he was cryogenically preserved.

> ------------------------------
>
>
> Message: 15
> Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2016 14:44:56 +1100
> From: Stathis Papaioannou <stathisp at gmail.com>
> To: "fhb3.evolute at gmail.com" <fhb3.evolute at gmail.com>, ExI chat list
> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Subject: [ExI]  Memorial for Lee Corbin Sunday Oct 16
> Message-ID:
> <CAH=2ypWSi96-WkdcY+EaGr8CGWcpH_2+n1T0+6ekjxBRTAPE1g at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
>
> And under rather awful circumstances, if Google finds the right Lee
> Corbin
> in Santa Clara.

WTF? This doesn't sound like Lee at all. He was one of the most rational
people I ever sparred with here. It doesn't make any sense. Any Alcor reps
here get a good look at the body? Forrest? Max? In what part of his
anatomy did Lee allegedly shoot himself, if I may ask?


Stuart LaForge





From anders at aleph.se  Sun Oct  9 15:20:08 2016
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders)
Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2016 17:20:08 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Memorial for Lee Corbin Sunday Oct 16
In-Reply-To: <CABkqLO7xMRtr5gogcXwFQYGgPVJD+nNSizq3pfpOh6b-GdkfAw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABkqLO7xMRtr5gogcXwFQYGgPVJD+nNSizq3pfpOh6b-GdkfAw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <bf88d769-e74b-0a74-cbab-8d86332d7706@aleph.se>

Tragic. Hopefully reversible, but still tragic.

I remember him being a fixture when I first came onto this list. And a 
quite essential node in the networks when I made sociograms of our 
conversations.


On 2016-10-09 00:21, Forrest Bennett wrote:
> Hello Everyone,
>
> Lee Corbin died in his house on Aug 18. He is now in cryonic 
> suspension at Alcor.
>
> We are going to have Lee's memorial service on Sunday October 16th in 
> the early afternoon. The location will be somewhere within ~20 minutes 
> of where Lee lived in Santa Clara, CA.
>
> More details on exact time and location soon.
>
> We need help contacting Lee's friends. So far, we have contacted 39 of 
> them.
>
> If you want to be on LeeCorbin at yahoogroups.com 
> <mailto:LeeCorbin at yahoogroups.com>, please contact either: Mark 
> Newbold <mark at dogfeathers.com <mailto:mark at dogfeathers.com>> or L. 
> William Bradford <hyades at roadrunner.com <mailto:hyades at roadrunner.com>>.
>
> Regards,
>
> Forrest
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

-- 
Dr Anders Sandberg
Future of Humanity Institute
Oxford Martin School
Oxford University

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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Sun Oct  9 16:02:39 2016
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2016 12:02:39 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Memorial for Lee Corbin Sunday Oct 16
In-Reply-To: <CAH=2ypUnAamnLUV_x2myLq7kXZMHPGUzToC-QUtSN8yVE93i-g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABkqLO7xMRtr5gogcXwFQYGgPVJD+nNSizq3pfpOh6b-GdkfAw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=2ypUnAamnLUV_x2myLq7kXZMHPGUzToC-QUtSN8yVE93i-g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv10Tryft5DTj_sP03V2un1RexvN_b9t0wfs_Ru3gXHqPA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Oct 8, 2016 at 9:42 PM, Stathis Papaioannou <stathisp at gmail.com>
wrote:

?> ?
> Very sorry to hear this,


?Me too.
?


> ?> ?
> Lee was a wonderful contributor to this list.


?Yes he certainly was. Just a few months ago in May ?he sent me a private
message asking me to clarify a point I'd made to the list way back in 1996,
and I was happy to comply. We went back and forth a few times almost like
it was 1996 again, it was a lot of fun and I wish it could have continued
longer. I will miss him.

?  John K Clark?





>
>
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From spike66 at att.net  Sun Oct  9 16:04:49 2016
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2016 09:04:49 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Memorial for Lee Corbin Sunday Oct 16
In-Reply-To: <bf88d769-e74b-0a74-cbab-8d86332d7706@aleph.se>
References: <CABkqLO7xMRtr5gogcXwFQYGgPVJD+nNSizq3pfpOh6b-GdkfAw@mail.gmail.com>
 <bf88d769-e74b-0a74-cbab-8d86332d7706@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <007b01d22246$dd0d09c0$97271d40$@att.net>

 

>. On Behalf Of Anders
Subject: Re: [ExI] Memorial for Lee Corbin Sunday Oct 16

 

Tragic. Hopefully reversible, but still tragic. 

I remember him being a fixture when I first came onto this list. And a quite
essential node in the networks when I made sociograms of our conversations.
Anders 

 

 

Lee was Dr. Matrix.  For those who followed the annual Dr. Joshua Irving
Matrix columns in Martin Gardner's Mathematical Recreations column in
Scientific American, Lee could have been the model for Dr. Matrix.  If one
wanted to talk about futurism, mathematics or computers, he was the man to
see.  Very far outside those topics, he was lost.  

 

I went back over my notes from about ten years ago and reviewed our
discussions.  He taught me Python, I taught him spreadsheet scripting
language.  We were both doing mathematical explorations and both benefitted
enormously from the other's expertise.  I don't know if I was the better
teacher or he was the better student, but my progress in Python was slower
than his progress in VBA.

 

Lee is gone but never forgotten.

 

spike  

 

 

 
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From ginakathleenmiller at gmail.com  Sun Oct  9 16:17:30 2016
From: ginakathleenmiller at gmail.com (Gina Miller)
Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2016 10:17:30 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Lee Corbin Memorial
In-Reply-To: <3160a980500bedf6f7d74a5636e59ad9.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
References: <mailman.1.1475994870.16466.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <3160a980500bedf6f7d74a5636e59ad9.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
Message-ID: <CAMd8APzdLdthYn-7SXHjSpifCoVHV6beRXy5PYnu2V1ymWT=YQ@mail.gmail.com>

I found this article, this may have been a mercy killing:
http://www.mercurynews.com/2016/08/24/santa-clara-murder-suicide-mother-and-son-identified/

-- 
Gina Miller
millermarketing.co
nanoindustries.com
nanogirl.com

On Sun, Oct 9, 2016 at 7:51 AM, Stuart LaForge <avant at sollegro.com> wrote:

> > Message: 12
> > Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2016 15:21:00 -0700
> > From: Forrest Bennett <fhb3.evolute at gmail.com>
> > To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > Subject: [ExI] Memorial for Lee Corbin Sunday Oct 16
> > Message-ID:
> > <CABkqLO7xMRtr5gogcXwFQYGgPVJD+nNSizq3pfpOh6b-GdkfAw at mail.gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> >
> >
> > Hello Everyone,
> >
> >
> > Lee Corbin died in his house on Aug 18. He is now in cryonic suspension
> > at Alcor.
>
> I am saddened to hear this. He was fun to debate with although frustrating
> at times. I have missed him since he stopped posting to the list. Now I
> guess I will miss him without the hope that he would post again. At least
> he was cryogenically preserved.
>
> > ------------------------------
> >
> >
> > Message: 15
> > Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2016 14:44:56 +1100
> > From: Stathis Papaioannou <stathisp at gmail.com>
> > To: "fhb3.evolute at gmail.com" <fhb3.evolute at gmail.com>, ExI chat list
> > <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> > Subject: [ExI]  Memorial for Lee Corbin Sunday Oct 16
> > Message-ID:
> > <CAH=2ypWSi96-WkdcY+EaGr8CGWcpH_2+n1T0+6ekjxBRTAPE1g at mail.gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> >
> >
> > And under rather awful circumstances, if Google finds the right Lee
> > Corbin
> > in Santa Clara.
>
> WTF? This doesn't sound like Lee at all. He was one of the most rational
> people I ever sparred with here. It doesn't make any sense. Any Alcor reps
> here get a good look at the body? Forrest? Max? In what part of his
> anatomy did Lee allegedly shoot himself, if I may ask?
>
>
> Stuart LaForge
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From pharos at gmail.com  Sun Oct  9 16:51:50 2016
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2016 17:51:50 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Lee Corbin Memorial
In-Reply-To: <3160a980500bedf6f7d74a5636e59ad9.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
References: <mailman.1.1475994870.16466.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <3160a980500bedf6f7d74a5636e59ad9.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armj8U9Tqk1LQFgtPvO-3F2ZKsk8jOiKD0ToVHpozW_iKVg@mail.gmail.com>

On 9 October 2016 at 14:51, Stuart LaForge wrote:
> I am saddened to hear this. He was fun to debate with although frustrating
> at times. I have missed him since he stopped posting to the list. Now I
> guess I will miss him without the hope that he would post again. At least
> he was cryogenically preserved.
>
>
> This doesn't sound like Lee at all. He was one of the most rational
> people I ever sparred with here. It doesn't make any sense.
>

Apparently he was caring for his sick 89-year old mother and he didn't
want her to suffer any more. Lee was 68 himself.
Tragic event, where he decided this was the best option available for
him and his mother.

End-of-life circumstances like this can be handled better in some
other countries.

In the near future, life extension procedures will produce an ageing
population with increasing medical problems. Optimistically,
eventually all medical problems will soon be treatable and people will
live healthy lives until they choose to die.
But the USA may be late in permitting people to choose euthanasia.


BillK


From johnkclark at gmail.com  Sun Oct  9 16:58:31 2016
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2016 12:58:31 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Lee Corbin Memorial
In-Reply-To: <CAMd8APzdLdthYn-7SXHjSpifCoVHV6beRXy5PYnu2V1ymWT=YQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1475994870.16466.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <3160a980500bedf6f7d74a5636e59ad9.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
 <CAMd8APzdLdthYn-7SXHjSpifCoVHV6beRXy5PYnu2V1ymWT=YQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv0jzHtamQ_Yf0cJapjSJwKbKT0Km0ms6ZJq1CGH_6O6AA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Oct 9, 2016 at 12:17 PM, Gina Miller <ginakathleenmiller at gmail.com>
wrote:


> ?> ?
> this may have been a mercy killing:
>

?I know that in May Lee's health was not good, I don't know about his
mother's.

  John K Clark?
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From ginakathleenmiller at gmail.com  Sun Oct  9 17:55:33 2016
From: ginakathleenmiller at gmail.com (Gina Miller)
Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2016 11:55:33 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Testing - do you see this message?
In-Reply-To: <VXUSfbHkZhy3hVFHEui3gKV7EAmdaP5G0HO-3kd86Au2S6cADGJ9ddjFo6wKrabAH4skBEL2IOM8uOYY5EHM733CV7iJDBxF-3lA_fULrbQ=@protonmail.ch>
References: <VXUSfbHkZhy3hVFHEui3gKV7EAmdaP5G0HO-3kd86Au2S6cADGJ9ddjFo6wKrabAH4skBEL2IOM8uOYY5EHM733CV7iJDBxF-3lA_fULrbQ=@protonmail.ch>
Message-ID: <CAMd8APwzEY8r2dm4+BMZ0U_1FH-r8p1L71Hwmb=GrwQK7pOm5w@mail.gmail.com>

Found this in my spam.

-- 
Gina "Nanogirl" Miller
millermarketing.co
nanoindustries.com
nanogirl.com

On Sun, Oct 9, 2016 at 1:24 AM, Giulio Prisco <giulioprisco at protonmail.ch>
wrote:

> Test - A couple of months ago messages to the list from Protonmail were
> put in spam by Gmail. Do you (both Gmail and non-Gmail users) see this
> message?
>
> --
> Giulio Prisco
> http://giulioprisco.com/
> giulioprisco at protonmail.ch
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From avant at sollegro.com  Sun Oct  9 18:18:41 2016
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2016 11:18:41 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Lee Corbin Memorial
Message-ID: <1576c7d8bab9a691f897141120008117.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>

> From: BillK <pharos at gmail.com>
> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Sent: Sunday, October 9, 2016 9:51 AM
> Subject: Re: [ExI] Lee Corbin Memorial
>
> On 9 October 2016 at 14:51, Stuart LaForge wrote:

>> This doesn't sound like Lee at all. He was one of the most rational
>> people I ever sparred with here. It doesn't make any sense.
>>
>
> Apparently he was caring for his sick 89-year old mother and he didn't
> want her to suffer any more. Lee was 68 himself.
> Tragic event, where he decided this was the best option available for
> him and his mother.

I can understand the desire to end a loved-ones suffering. Furthermore I
support the right of people to choose euthanasia as an option. I can
understand Lee wanting to end his pain and fast-forward to the
singularity. Just not the WAY he allegedly did it.

My point is that Lee was a rational cryonicist and libertarian. He
abborhed violence except in self-defense. He also seemed to be very
deliberate and organized, almost anally so.

I would have thought euthanasia to be something Lee would have planned out
in advance. Maybe sent Alcor an email so they can have their team standing
by. Did he even leave a suicide note?

Also the method he used was incongruent with his character. He was smart
as a whip and could have chosen any number of ways to kill his mother and
himself in their sleep with no pain and no bloody mess. Why would he
choose a gun when a pillow could have sufficed for his mom and an overdose
of vicodin for himself?

He was also a big advocate of gun rights. He would have had to have known
that doing this would have made him look like a poster-child for
gun-control.

I am curious as to whether he allegedly shot himself in the head. I can't
imagine any rational cryonicist doing that for what I hope are obvious
reasons.

Stuart LaForge

"Parting is all we know of heaven and all we need of hell." - Emily Dickinson





From fhb3.evolute at gmail.com  Sun Oct  9 21:19:54 2016
From: fhb3.evolute at gmail.com (Forrest Bennett)
Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2016 14:19:54 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Memorial for Lee Corbin Sunday Oct 16
In-Reply-To: <007b01d22246$dd0d09c0$97271d40$@att.net>
References: <CABkqLO7xMRtr5gogcXwFQYGgPVJD+nNSizq3pfpOh6b-GdkfAw@mail.gmail.com>
 <bf88d769-e74b-0a74-cbab-8d86332d7706@aleph.se>
 <007b01d22246$dd0d09c0$97271d40$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CABkqLO432hE6PkZJCP9K9K5jkg814j0xRPT2Q636HTvyVu+oAw@mail.gmail.com>

Spike,

I respectfully disagree that Lee was lost outside the topics of futurism,
mathematics, and computers. I also know that you meant no harm by your
comment, but were just representing Lee as you knew him.

Lee was extremely knowledgable about history, physics, cosmology,
philosophy, economics, chess (of course), evolutionary psychology, as well
as certain areas of chemistry, biological evolution, and science fiction.
He was also into classical music, go, geography, and movies. I may have
left out some subject areas, but you get the idea.

Lee's curiosity and knowledge were quite wide ranging.

Forrest



On Sun, Oct 9, 2016 at 9:04 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

>
>
> *>?* *On Behalf Of *Anders
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Memorial for Lee Corbin Sunday Oct 16
>
>
>
> Tragic. Hopefully reversible, but still tragic.
>
> I remember him being a fixture when I first came onto this list. And a
> quite essential node in the networks when I made sociograms of our
> conversations.  Anders
>
>
>
>
>
> Lee was Dr. Matrix.  For those who followed the annual Dr. Joshua Irving
> Matrix columns in Martin Gardner?s Mathematical Recreations column in
> Scientific American, Lee could have been the model for Dr. Matrix.  If one
> wanted to talk about futurism, mathematics or computers, he was the man to
> see.  Very far outside those topics, he was lost.
>
>
>
> I went back over my notes from about ten years ago and reviewed our
> discussions.  He taught me Python, I taught him spreadsheet scripting
> language.  We were both doing mathematical explorations and both benefitted
> enormously from the other?s expertise.  I don?t know if I was the better
> teacher or he was the better student, but my progress in Python was slower
> than his progress in VBA.
>
>
>
> Lee is gone but never forgotten.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From spike66 at att.net  Sun Oct  9 22:16:56 2016
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2016 15:16:56 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Memorial for Lee Corbin Sunday Oct 16
In-Reply-To: <CABkqLO432hE6PkZJCP9K9K5jkg814j0xRPT2Q636HTvyVu+oAw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABkqLO7xMRtr5gogcXwFQYGgPVJD+nNSizq3pfpOh6b-GdkfAw@mail.gmail.com>
 <bf88d769-e74b-0a74-cbab-8d86332d7706@aleph.se>
 <007b01d22246$dd0d09c0$97271d40$@att.net>
 <CABkqLO432hE6PkZJCP9K9K5jkg814j0xRPT2Q636HTvyVu+oAw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <019701d2227a$d9c3fba0$8d4bf2e0$@att.net>

 

 

From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Forrest Bennett
Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2016 2:20 PM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: Re: [ExI] Memorial for Lee Corbin Sunday Oct 16

 

Spike, 

 

I respectfully disagree that Lee was lost outside the topics of futurism, mathematics, and computers. I also know that you meant no harm by your comment, but were just representing Lee as you knew him. 

 

Lee was extremely knowledgable about history, physics, cosmology, philosophy, economics, chess (of course), evolutionary psychology, as well as certain areas of chemistry, biological evolution, and science fiction. He was also into classical music, go, geography, and movies. I may have left out some subject areas, but you get the idea. 

 

Lee's curiosity and knowledge were quite wide ranging. 

 

Forrest

 

 

 

 

 

Ja thanks for pointing that out Forrest.  Lee loved science and math, all aspects of it.  Now that you mention it, I recall his mentioning interest in classical music.  That he had interest in movies is a big surprise to me however.  I don?t recall his ever mentioning it, and just as well: I know nothing of movies.  The last time I attended one was Enders Game with the cryonics crowd, and I don?t even know before that, probably still in the 20th century.

 

Regarding chess: he and I intentionally eschewed it when together, for we both knew that chess can be all-consuming, to the expense of everything else.  I fear that had we played even one game, we would have been instantly addicted like a couple of hopeless crack addicts, and all other topics would have been swamped.  He was fascinated by the rise in the skill level of computer chess, and was as astonished as I was that computers could play as well as they did by about the mid 90s.  The first time I met Lee was at an exclusive invitation-only chess club in Palo Alto where you couldn?t even get in the door unless you were at least at expert level.  I believe Lee was a master.

 

I should have said it thus: when Lee and I were together, we didn?t waste time on matters outside our area of mutual knowledge: mathematical research, algorithms, nanotech, futurism and so forth.  I can assure you we spent no time on the latest clothing styles or fashion, which would be obvious to the casual observer.  We were geeks before it was cool.  For that matter, it still isn?t.  {8^D  But we like it that way.

 

Lee was a deep thinker and a very focused guy.  He didn?t let society?s craziness distract him much.

 

spike

 

 

 

On Sun, Oct 9, 2016 at 9:04 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net <mailto:spike66 at att.net> > wrote:

 

>? On Behalf Of Anders
Subject: Re: [ExI] Memorial for Lee Corbin Sunday Oct 16

 

Tragic. Hopefully reversible, but still tragic. 

I remember him being a fixture when I first came onto this list. And a quite essential node in the networks when I made sociograms of our conversations.  Anders 

 

 

Lee was Dr. Matrix.  For those who followed the annual Dr. Joshua Irving Matrix columns in Martin Gardner?s Mathematical Recreations column in Scientific American, Lee could have been the model for Dr. Matrix.  If one wanted to talk about futurism, mathematics or computers, he was the man to see.  Very far outside those topics, he was lost.  

 

I went back over my notes from about ten years ago and reviewed our discussions.  He taught me Python, I taught him spreadsheet scripting language.  We were both doing mathematical explorations and both benefitted enormously from the other?s expertise.  I don?t know if I was the better teacher or he was the better student, but my progress in Python was slower than his progress in VBA.

 

Lee is gone but never forgotten.

 

spike  

 

 

 


_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> 
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

 

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From fhb3.evolute at gmail.com  Sun Oct  9 23:04:32 2016
From: fhb3.evolute at gmail.com (Forrest Bennett)
Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2016 16:04:32 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Memorial for Lee Corbin Sunday Oct 16
In-Reply-To: <019701d2227a$d9c3fba0$8d4bf2e0$@att.net>
References: <CABkqLO7xMRtr5gogcXwFQYGgPVJD+nNSizq3pfpOh6b-GdkfAw@mail.gmail.com>
 <bf88d769-e74b-0a74-cbab-8d86332d7706@aleph.se>
 <007b01d22246$dd0d09c0$97271d40$@att.net>
 <CABkqLO432hE6PkZJCP9K9K5jkg814j0xRPT2Q636HTvyVu+oAw@mail.gmail.com>
 <019701d2227a$d9c3fba0$8d4bf2e0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CABkqLO5jLKiB-RVY46n6zVpfqFL79LseGK_e2ppwexuiDZEHQg@mail.gmail.com>

Yes, he was a master level chess player, though I forget his exact rating.

He owned hundreds of classical records, tapes, and CDs. As well as hundreds
of movies. To give a few random examples, he really liked The Matrix,
Babylon 5, Leonardo Dicaprio, and La Femme Nikita.

He was also a "quantified self" experimenter, and conducted careful double
blind (when possible) experiments on himself.

I certainly agree with your point that he had no interest in things like
fashion, cooking, sports, etc.





On Sun, Oct 9, 2016 at 3:16 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *From:* extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] *On
> Behalf Of *Forrest Bennett
> *Sent:* Sunday, October 09, 2016 2:20 PM
> *To:* ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Memorial for Lee Corbin Sunday Oct 16
>
>
>
> Spike,
>
>
>
> I respectfully disagree that Lee was lost outside the topics of futurism,
> mathematics, and computers. I also know that you meant no harm by your
> comment, but were just representing Lee as you knew him.
>
>
>
> Lee was extremely knowledgable about history, physics, cosmology,
> philosophy, economics, chess (of course), evolutionary psychology, as well
> as certain areas of chemistry, biological evolution, and science fiction.
> He was also into classical music, go, geography, and movies. I may have
> left out some subject areas, but you get the idea.
>
>
>
> Lee's curiosity and knowledge were quite wide ranging.
>
>
>
> Forrest
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Ja thanks for pointing that out Forrest.  Lee loved science and math, all
> aspects of it.  Now that you mention it, I recall his mentioning interest
> in classical music.  That he had interest in movies is a big surprise to me
> however.  I don?t recall his ever mentioning it, and just as well: I know
> nothing of movies.  The last time I attended one was Enders Game with the
> cryonics crowd, and I don?t even know before that, probably still in the 20
> th century.
>
>
>
> Regarding chess: he and I intentionally eschewed it when together, for we
> both knew that chess can be all-consuming, to the expense of everything
> else.  I fear that had we played even one game, we would have been
> instantly addicted like a couple of hopeless crack addicts, and all other
> topics would have been swamped.  He was fascinated by the rise in the skill
> level of computer chess, and was as astonished as I was that computers
> could play as well as they did by about the mid 90s.  The first time I met
> Lee was at an exclusive invitation-only chess club in Palo Alto where you
> couldn?t even get in the door unless you were at least at expert level.  I
> believe Lee was a master.
>
>
>
> I should have said it thus: when Lee and I were together, we didn?t waste
> time on matters outside our area of mutual knowledge: mathematical
> research, algorithms, nanotech, futurism and so forth.  I can assure you we
> spent no time on the latest clothing styles or fashion, which would be
> obvious to the casual observer.  We were geeks before it was cool.  For
> that matter, it still isn?t.  {8^D  But we like it that way.
>
>
>
> Lee was a deep thinker and a very focused guy.  He didn?t let society?s
> craziness distract him much.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Oct 9, 2016 at 9:04 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> *>?* *On Behalf Of *Anders
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Memorial for Lee Corbin Sunday Oct 16
>
>
>
> Tragic. Hopefully reversible, but still tragic.
>
> I remember him being a fixture when I first came onto this list. And a
> quite essential node in the networks when I made sociograms of our
> conversations.  Anders
>
>
>
>
>
> Lee was Dr. Matrix.  For those who followed the annual Dr. Joshua Irving
> Matrix columns in Martin Gardner?s Mathematical Recreations column in
> Scientific American, Lee could have been the model for Dr. Matrix.  If one
> wanted to talk about futurism, mathematics or computers, he was the man to
> see.  Very far outside those topics, he was lost.
>
>
>
> I went back over my notes from about ten years ago and reviewed our
> discussions.  He taught me Python, I taught him spreadsheet scripting
> language.  We were both doing mathematical explorations and both benefitted
> enormously from the other?s expertise.  I don?t know if I was the better
> teacher or he was the better student, but my progress in Python was slower
> than his progress in VBA.
>
>
>
> Lee is gone but never forgotten.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
>
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From spike66 at att.net  Mon Oct 10 04:56:32 2016
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2016 21:56:32 -0700
Subject: [ExI] boyajian's star again
Message-ID: <001901d222b2$ac648e80$052dab80$@att.net>

 

I heard there was a second star exhibiting dimming but this article from
Geek claims Seth Shostak of SETI said there are several now.  I am so
puzzled.

 

http://www.geek.com/culture/aliens-slightly-more-likely-at-tabbys-star-16735
84/

 

The article claims Boyajian's star dimmed a couple percent in just 200 days.
That is so weird.  Weird is cool in astronomy.  We are about to learn
something new and cool about stars.

 

spike

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From fhb3.evolute at gmail.com  Mon Oct 10 21:17:29 2016
From: fhb3.evolute at gmail.com (Forrest Bennett)
Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2016 14:17:29 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Memorial for Lee Corbin Sunday Oct 16
In-Reply-To: <CABkqLO7xMRtr5gogcXwFQYGgPVJD+nNSizq3pfpOh6b-GdkfAw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABkqLO7xMRtr5gogcXwFQYGgPVJD+nNSizq3pfpOh6b-GdkfAw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABkqLO6zs-QrFJg5v0NkdUELQ+Wg1mFnLupJvJwi-8x3acPDXA@mail.gmail.com>

Dear friends of Lee,

Sorry for not providing more details earlier; I didn't quite know what was
appropriate. After talking to Lee's family and a few close friends I
decided to provide more information.

Yes, Lee shot his mother and then himself. He left a note that explained
why he shot his mother: she had extremely advanced dementia and
zero/negative quality of life and was scheduled for another painful
operation. He also explained that he had been planning to kill himself for
5 months, citing the deterioration of his own mind. Lee had severe sleep
problems since 2000. He is now with Alcor, although he didn't explain why
he killed himself in a way that reduced his chances of cryonics success.
His friends and I remain puzzled and troubled by that.

Lee's family wants you to know that Lee loved his mother very much.

For those here who don't know me, I've been a close friend of Lee's since
1988. He and I have been discussing extropian topics and beyond since then.
I was also on alt.extropians back in the 90's.

Forrest


On Sat, Oct 8, 2016 at 3:21 PM, Forrest Bennett <fhb3.evolute at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Hello Everyone,
>
> Lee Corbin died in his house on Aug 18. He is now in cryonic suspension at
> Alcor.
>
> We are going to have Lee's memorial service on Sunday October 16th in the
> early afternoon. The location will be somewhere within ~20 minutes of where
> Lee lived in Santa Clara, CA.
>
> More details on exact time and location soon.
>
> We need help contacting Lee's friends. So far, we have contacted 39 of
> them.
>
> If you want to be on LeeCorbin at yahoogroups.com, please contact either:
> Mark Newbold <mark at dogfeathers.com> or L. William Bradford <
> hyades at roadrunner.com>.
>
> Regards,
>
> Forrest
>
>
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Tue Oct 11 00:05:08 2016
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2016 20:05:08 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Memorial for Lee Corbin Sunday Oct 16
In-Reply-To: <CABkqLO6zs-QrFJg5v0NkdUELQ+Wg1mFnLupJvJwi-8x3acPDXA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABkqLO7xMRtr5gogcXwFQYGgPVJD+nNSizq3pfpOh6b-GdkfAw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABkqLO6zs-QrFJg5v0NkdUELQ+Wg1mFnLupJvJwi-8x3acPDXA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv3=53fqn4GVktA6ZAJs1t6nWSHMSkMkWc9gBETtcoPS+w@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Oct 10, 2016  Forrest Bennett <fhb3.evolute at gmail.com> wrote:

?> ?
> He also explained that he had been planning to kill himself for 5 months,
> citing the deterioration of his own mind. Lee had severe sleep problems
> since 2000. He is now with Alcor, although he didn't explain why he killed
> himself in a way that reduced his chances of cryonics success. His friends
> and I remain puzzled and troubled by that.


?
That is tragic. And that is exactly why I think the legalization of
euthanasia is the single most important libertarian issue in the world
today, and why I found it so interesting that Hillary Clinton's
?
official position on it is more libertarian than of the Libertarian party
candidate.

 John K Clark







Dear friends of Lee,
>
> Sorry for not providing more details earlier; I didn't quite know what was
> appropriate. After talking to Lee's family and a few close friends I
> decided to provide more information.
>
> Yes, Lee shot his mother and then himself. He left a note that explained
> why he shot his mother: she had extremely advanced dementia and
> zero/negative quality of life and was scheduled for another painful
> operation. He also explained that he had been planning to kill himself for
> 5 months, citing the deterioration of his own mind. Lee had severe sleep
> problems since 2000. He is now with Alcor, although he didn't explain why
> he killed himself in a way that reduced his chances of cryonics success.
> His friends and I remain puzzled and troubled by that.
>
> Lee's family wants you to know that Lee loved his mother very much.
>
> For those here who don't know me, I've been a close friend of Lee's since
> 1988. He and I have been discussing extropian topics and beyond since then.
> I was also on alt.extropians back in the 90's.
>
> Forrest
>
>
> On Sat, Oct 8, 2016 at 3:21 PM, Forrest Bennett <fhb3.evolute at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Hello Everyone,
>>
>> Lee Corbin died in his house on Aug 18. He is now in cryonic suspension
>> at Alcor.
>>
>> We are going to have Lee's memorial service on Sunday October 16th in
>> the early afternoon. The location will be somewhere within ~20 minutes of
>> where Lee lived in Santa Clara, CA.
>>
>> More details on exact time and location soon.
>>
>> We need help contacting Lee's friends. So far, we have contacted 39 of
>> them.
>>
>> If you want to be on LeeCorbin at yahoogroups.com, please contact either:
>> Mark Newbold <mark at dogfeathers.com> or L. William Bradford <
>> hyades at roadrunner.com>.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Forrest
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From ginakathleenmiller at gmail.com  Tue Oct 11 02:33:20 2016
From: ginakathleenmiller at gmail.com (Gina Miller)
Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2016 20:33:20 -0600
Subject: [ExI] My new digital art: a Medical NANOROBOT Concept piece
In-Reply-To: <005901d21e4d$0eae3a60$2c0aaf20$@att.net>
References: <CAMd8APxL_Bw08R=1heWG6NVUq1CTvQJUr0h9-PCBAcQBUYM-Wg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTCJye9Li_-sxq216fP49K1qKJhHk_+cSKSVWTGxwt-ypZLow@mail.gmail.com>
 <209cc31d-d011-c66f-6acb-41318cd6d7c9@aleph.se>
 <005901d21e4d$0eae3a60$2c0aaf20$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAMd8APwA_e-PERmaFiEFEXnPZEdPUY8P6Yy2ZWH2s4=Uk49aqw@mail.gmail.com>

Read this great article by Giulio Prisco about the latest nobel prize
winners and molecular nanotechnology, featuring my digital artwork the
?Medical Nanorobots? infographic.

https://hacked.com/the-2016-nobel-prize-in-chemistry-vindicates-radical-visions-of-molecular-nanotechnology/
-- 
Gina Miller
millermarketing.co
nanoindustries.com
nanogirl.com

On Tue, Oct 4, 2016 at 8:39 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

>
>
>
> >...Agreed. But I wonder about the propulsion system? At that scale jets
> >are not possible, you need to use cilia...
> ...-- Dr Anders Sandberg
> _______________________________________________
>
> Ja.  In engineering school we do so many calculations on the meter scale we
> develop intuitions based on that range that we sometimes forget how
> different things are on the micrometer scale.  Up here, gravity dominates
> everything; down there, electrostatic forces run the government.
>
> We could imagine an engineering specialty where all the structures are
> designed at the micron scale.  They wouldn't worry about HVAC any more than
> current mechanical engineers worry about the water supply to the building
> or
> the local waste processing plant (other engineers take care of all that
> somehow.)
>
> If one does calculations every day on the micron scale, useful intuitions
> will develop naturally.  When we hear the term "wild beast" we think bear,
> racoon, ardvaark or something.  The micron-scale engineer would think
> amoeba.
>
> spike
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From ginakathleenmiller at gmail.com  Tue Oct 11 02:51:32 2016
From: ginakathleenmiller at gmail.com (Gina Miller)
Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2016 20:51:32 -0600
Subject: [ExI] My new digital art: a Medical NANOROBOT Concept piece
In-Reply-To: <CAMd8APwA_e-PERmaFiEFEXnPZEdPUY8P6Yy2ZWH2s4=Uk49aqw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMd8APxL_Bw08R=1heWG6NVUq1CTvQJUr0h9-PCBAcQBUYM-Wg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTCJye9Li_-sxq216fP49K1qKJhHk_+cSKSVWTGxwt-ypZLow@mail.gmail.com>
 <209cc31d-d011-c66f-6acb-41318cd6d7c9@aleph.se>
 <005901d21e4d$0eae3a60$2c0aaf20$@att.net>
 <CAMd8APwA_e-PERmaFiEFEXnPZEdPUY8P6Yy2ZWH2s4=Uk49aqw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMd8APwA6xegOMRgQQMk_d74Uj60_oHLEGi+y6JmqGetd1_+gg@mail.gmail.com>

You got it!

On Mon, Oct 10, 2016 at 8:33 PM, Gina Miller <ginakathleenmiller at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Read this great article by Giulio Prisco about the latest nobel prize
> winners and molecular nanotechnology, featuring my digital artwork the
> ?Medical Nanorobots? infographic.
>
> https://hacked.com/the-2016-nobel-prize-in-chemistry-
> vindicates-radical-visions-of-molecular-nanotechnology/
> --
> Gina Miller
> millermarketing.co
> nanoindustries.com
> nanogirl.com
>
> On Tue, Oct 4, 2016 at 8:39 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>> >...Agreed. But I wonder about the propulsion system? At that scale jets
>> >are not possible, you need to use cilia...
>> ...-- Dr Anders Sandberg
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> Ja.  In engineering school we do so many calculations on the meter scale
>> we
>> develop intuitions based on that range that we sometimes forget how
>> different things are on the micrometer scale.  Up here, gravity dominates
>> everything; down there, electrostatic forces run the government.
>>
>> We could imagine an engineering specialty where all the structures are
>> designed at the micron scale.  They wouldn't worry about HVAC any more
>> than
>> current mechanical engineers worry about the water supply to the building
>> or
>> the local waste processing plant (other engineers take care of all that
>> somehow.)
>>
>> If one does calculations every day on the micron scale, useful intuitions
>> will develop naturally.  When we hear the term "wild beast" we think bear,
>> racoon, ardvaark or something.  The micron-scale engineer would think
>> amoeba.
>>
>> spike
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
>
>
>
>
>


-- 
Gina Miller
millermarketing.co
nanoindustries.com
nanogirl.com
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From ablainey at aol.com  Tue Oct 11 15:20:18 2016
From: ablainey at aol.com (Alex Blainey)
Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2016 11:20:18 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Memorial for Lee Corbin Sunday Oct 16
In-Reply-To: <bf88d769-e74b-0a74-cbab-8d86332d7706@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <157b4547be4-46ca-a4be@webprd-a54.mail.aol.com>


 Terrible news, Ive only just heard this as ive beeen out of touch since my heart attack last year. What a loss, Lee was always good to chat with offlist.
At least he was signed up for suspension. I wish that Sasha had done the same all those moons ago.

Alex.

 




On 2016-10-09 00:21, Forrest Bennett      wrote:
    
    
            
Hello Everyone,         

          
        
Lee            Corbin died in his house on Aug 18. He is now in cryonic            suspension at Alcor. 
                    

          




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From pharos at gmail.com  Tue Oct 11 08:44:29 2016
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2016 09:44:29 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Radiation damage could stop manned trips to Mars
Message-ID: <CAL_armjVL24amkPQtjxNCKaRs1PPxEbtNO4+_wVP36g8aA3D9g@mail.gmail.com>

"Space brain" could make manned trips to Mars rather forgettable
11 Oct 2016

<http://newatlas.com/cosmic-rays-space-brain-dementia/45840/>

Quotes:
For astronauts on the ISS, radiation mainly curtails how long and how
many visits crews can make in a lifetime. But outside of the
protection of Earth's magnetic field, which means any deep space
mission, it's another matter. On long missions, including to Mars,
galactic cosmic rays become a major hazard. These immensely high
energy charged particles that originate outside the Solar System can
shoot through spacecraft hulls and passengers as if they aren't even
there. However, when the heavier of these particles, such as the
nuclei of oxygen and carbon atoms, strike, they can directly or
indirectly cause major damage to living tissue.

Limoli says that the symptoms produced would be like dementia and
would manifest themselves within months of leaving Earth. The
astronauts would have problems with anxiety, impaired memory, reduced
ability to multitask, and poor decision making. Worse, the condition
would continue indefinitely.

Currently, solutions are being sought for the cosmic ray problems, but
the amount of shielding needed to protect Mars crews would make any
mission too expensive to mount, and the highly energetic particles
would still penetrate the hull or cause radiation cascades like a
shell turning armor plate into shrapnel. With this in mind, the UCI
team is looking at a medical solution using compounds that could
scavenge free radicals and protect neurotransmission.
---------

Looks like robots will be our space explorers........


BillK


From spike66 at att.net  Tue Oct 11 16:33:02 2016
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2016 09:33:02 -0700
Subject: [ExI] online link to yahoo memorial
Message-ID: <003401d223dd$234ba3f0$69e2ebd0$@att.net>

 

The recent passing and cryonic suspension of Lee Corbin resulted in his
friends setting up a Yahoo group.  The discussion there caused me to learn
more about him than I had ever known, discovering dimensions to his
personality I knew not, even though we were friends for twenty years and
spent plenty of time one on one.

 

We should have some means of linking to those groups, perhaps some way for
cryonics groups to create an online list of those who have gone before, with
some way to get to an online archive about the cryonaut's life and passions.

 

Please would someone cross-post this comment over to Alcor cryonics chat?  I
am not active on those lists, but might get with it now.  Lee's passing may
inspire others to get with the program on cryonics.

 

spike

 

 

 

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From sjv2006 at gmail.com  Tue Oct 11 18:57:17 2016
From: sjv2006 at gmail.com (Stephen Van Sickle)
Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2016 11:57:17 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Radiation damage could stop manned trips to Mars
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armjVL24amkPQtjxNCKaRs1PPxEbtNO4+_wVP36g8aA3D9g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armjVL24amkPQtjxNCKaRs1PPxEbtNO4+_wVP36g8aA3D9g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CADYziYBw4Mm+BxTmtSfGizPj98DZ0icetJ8FsLHziRCtjfxx7g@mail.gmail.com>

Quick look at the paper.  They expose the mice to the same total energy as
a Mars trip, but
(if my arithmetic is correct) at about 30,000 to 150,000 times the* rate*
of exposure (years worth in minutes).

I would take with a big grain of salt.

On Tue, Oct 11, 2016 at 1:44 AM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:

> "Space brain" could make manned trips to Mars rather forgettable
> 11 Oct 2016
>
> <http://newatlas.com/cosmic-rays-space-brain-dementia/45840/>
>
> Quotes:
> For astronauts on the ISS, radiation mainly curtails how long and how
> many visits crews can make in a lifetime. But outside of the
> protection of Earth's magnetic field, which means any deep space
> mission, it's another matter. On long missions, including to Mars,
> galactic cosmic rays become a major hazard. These immensely high
> energy charged particles that originate outside the Solar System can
> shoot through spacecraft hulls and passengers as if they aren't even
> there. However, when the heavier of these particles, such as the
> nuclei of oxygen and carbon atoms, strike, they can directly or
> indirectly cause major damage to living tissue.
>
> Limoli says that the symptoms produced would be like dementia and
> would manifest themselves within months of leaving Earth. The
> astronauts would have problems with anxiety, impaired memory, reduced
> ability to multitask, and poor decision making. Worse, the condition
> would continue indefinitely.
>
> Currently, solutions are being sought for the cosmic ray problems, but
> the amount of shielding needed to protect Mars crews would make any
> mission too expensive to mount, and the highly energetic particles
> would still penetrate the hull or cause radiation cascades like a
> shell turning armor plate into shrapnel. With this in mind, the UCI
> team is looking at a medical solution using compounds that could
> scavenge free radicals and protect neurotransmission.
> ---------
>
> Looks like robots will be our space explorers........
>
>
> BillK
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From pharos at gmail.com  Tue Oct 11 19:40:55 2016
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2016 20:40:55 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Radiation damage could stop manned trips to Mars
In-Reply-To: <CADYziYBw4Mm+BxTmtSfGizPj98DZ0icetJ8FsLHziRCtjfxx7g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armjVL24amkPQtjxNCKaRs1PPxEbtNO4+_wVP36g8aA3D9g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADYziYBw4Mm+BxTmtSfGizPj98DZ0icetJ8FsLHziRCtjfxx7g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armhO5NrLEYSfE28gKXXjiUn7EWY+J4cJogbDJ6S==cwNZA@mail.gmail.com>

On 11 October 2016 at 19:57, Stephen Van Sickle wrote:
> Quick look at the paper.  They expose the mice to the same total energy as a
> Mars trip, but
> (if my arithmetic is correct) at about 30,000 to 150,000 times the rate of
> exposure (years worth in minutes).
>
> I would take with a big grain of salt.
>

I think you can put your salt away.  :)
This is not just one oddball paper. This lab is part of NASA?s Human
Research Program investigating how space radiation affects astronauts
and learning ways to mitigate those effects.

Radiation damage is always measured by total dosage. The rate of
dosage doesn't matter. e.g. Staff  working in nuclear power, medical
labs, astronauts, etc.

BillK



From sjv2006 at gmail.com  Tue Oct 11 20:45:40 2016
From: sjv2006 at gmail.com (Stephen Van Sickle)
Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2016 13:45:40 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Radiation damage could stop manned trips to Mars
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armhO5NrLEYSfE28gKXXjiUn7EWY+J4cJogbDJ6S==cwNZA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armjVL24amkPQtjxNCKaRs1PPxEbtNO4+_wVP36g8aA3D9g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADYziYBw4Mm+BxTmtSfGizPj98DZ0icetJ8FsLHziRCtjfxx7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armhO5NrLEYSfE28gKXXjiUn7EWY+J4cJogbDJ6S==cwNZA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CADYziYAyUZwOXgmBgVdBomi2VGzXGTMdNkj_oX5NDx336woWog@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Oct 11, 2016 at 12:40 PM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:

> On 11 October 2016 at 19:57, Stephen Van Sickle wrote:



>
> This lab is part of NASA?s Human
> Research Program
>

So what?  NASA is as capable of bad science as anyone.


> The rate of
> dosage doesn't matter.


Yes, it does.  It matters quite a bit.  If you live in Denver for 80 years,
your total background dose is abut 1 Sv.  Any effect of that won't be
measurable.  If you get that dose in one hour, you will show symptoms of
Acute Radiation Syndrome and have about a 5% chance of dying from it in a
month.  Rate likely will have a different effect with cosmic radiation than
with gamma, but a blanket statement that "rate of dosage doesn't matter" is
just plain wrong.

I also said "take with a big grain of salt", not "disregard entirely".
Heavy ion radiation is one of the two biggest medical concerns (the other
being .38 g gravity effects).  It is a serious issue, but like .38 g just
about impossible to experiment with on earth.  Even if there is an
accelerator that can create cosmic ray energies (and there isn't), no one
would tie it up for 2 or 3 years for one experiment.  So they do the
experiment that they can, not the one which they need.  Very common, but
the results are rarely definitive.

s
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From atymes at gmail.com  Tue Oct 11 21:21:58 2016
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2016 14:21:58 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Radiation damage could stop manned trips to Mars
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armhO5NrLEYSfE28gKXXjiUn7EWY+J4cJogbDJ6S==cwNZA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armjVL24amkPQtjxNCKaRs1PPxEbtNO4+_wVP36g8aA3D9g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADYziYBw4Mm+BxTmtSfGizPj98DZ0icetJ8FsLHziRCtjfxx7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armhO5NrLEYSfE28gKXXjiUn7EWY+J4cJogbDJ6S==cwNZA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNSzoQx9g+dQTpeFY8XW2NnspUzpo=_6kPDNk-j6NWawhQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Oct 11, 2016 12:42 PM, "BillK" <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:
> Radiation damage is always measured by total dosage. The rate of
> dosage doesn't matter. e.g. Staff  working in nuclear power, medical
> labs, astronauts, etc.

http://www.nrc.gov/about-nrc/radiation/health-effects/info.html

The regulations measure dose per year.  Rate matters.  (Granted, there are
lifetime limits too...which would have to be recalibrated if multi-century
lifetimes became common, but serve for modern humans who, even in the
extreme cases such as hazmat workers, will likely only receive strong
exposure for a few decades.)
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From interzone at gmail.com  Tue Oct 11 21:46:46 2016
From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio)
Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2016 17:46:46 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Radiation damage could stop manned trips to Mars
In-Reply-To: <CADYziYAyUZwOXgmBgVdBomi2VGzXGTMdNkj_oX5NDx336woWog@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armjVL24amkPQtjxNCKaRs1PPxEbtNO4+_wVP36g8aA3D9g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADYziYBw4Mm+BxTmtSfGizPj98DZ0icetJ8FsLHziRCtjfxx7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armhO5NrLEYSfE28gKXXjiUn7EWY+J4cJogbDJ6S==cwNZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADYziYAyUZwOXgmBgVdBomi2VGzXGTMdNkj_oX5NDx336woWog@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJrqPH_7+3D_UQbwwBWJwr3Ng-jjWvwmGZGaDuOiwqFXV-r7ug@mail.gmail.com>

I haven't read the paper, but isn't a self generated magnetic field
surrounding the living  sections a possible solution for this?

On Oct 11, 2016 4:46 PM, "Stephen Van Sickle" <sjv2006 at gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Tue, Oct 11, 2016 at 12:40 PM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 11 October 2016 at 19:57, Stephen Van Sickle wrote:
>
>
>
>>
>> This lab is part of NASA?s Human
>> Research Program
>>
>
> So what?  NASA is as capable of bad science as anyone.
>
>
>> The rate of
>> dosage doesn't matter.
>
>
> Yes, it does.  It matters quite a bit.  If you live in Denver for 80
> years, your total background dose is abut 1 Sv.  Any effect of that won't
> be measurable.  If you get that dose in one hour, you will show symptoms of
> Acute Radiation Syndrome and have about a 5% chance of dying from it in a
> month.  Rate likely will have a different effect with cosmic radiation than
> with gamma, but a blanket statement that "rate of dosage doesn't matter" is
> just plain wrong.
>
> I also said "take with a big grain of salt", not "disregard entirely".
> Heavy ion radiation is one of the two biggest medical concerns (the other
> being .38 g gravity effects).  It is a serious issue, but like .38 g just
> about impossible to experiment with on earth.  Even if there is an
> accelerator that can create cosmic ray energies (and there isn't), no one
> would tie it up for 2 or 3 years for one experiment.  So they do the
> experiment that they can, not the one which they need.  Very common, but
> the results are rarely definitive.
>
> s
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From stathisp at gmail.com  Tue Oct 11 21:52:36 2016
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2016 08:52:36 +1100
Subject: [ExI] online link to yahoo memorial
In-Reply-To: <003401d223dd$234ba3f0$69e2ebd0$@att.net>
References: <003401d223dd$234ba3f0$69e2ebd0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAH=2ypXLz39RRubAaw1LBUyWMNA1FE4e5KtAONsaVShZMKY-Ag@mail.gmail.com>

On Wednesday, 12 October 2016, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

>
>
> The recent passing and cryonic suspension of Lee Corbin resulted in his
> friends setting up a Yahoo group.  The discussion there caused me to learn
> more about him than I had ever known, discovering dimensions to his
> personality I knew not, even though we were friends for twenty years and
> spent plenty of time one on one.
>
>
>
> We should have some means of linking to those groups, perhaps some way for
> cryonics groups to create an online list of those who have gone before,
> with some way to get to an online archive about the cryonaut?s life and
> passions.
>
>
>
> Please would someone cross-post this comment over to Alcor cryonics chat?
> I am not active on those lists, but might get with it now.  Lee?s passing
> may inspire others to get with the program on cryonics.
>
>
Is the Yahoo group open to anyone? I didn't meet Lee personally but I have
had probably hundreds of email exchanges with him over the years on this
and another mailing list, mostly about personal identity. I never knew much
about his personal life, since that rarely came up, but nonetheless a
strange sort of intimacy can develop from these intense intellectual
discussions, and I have been affected to learn of his death.


-- 
Stathis Papaioannou
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From pharos at gmail.com  Tue Oct 11 22:02:19 2016
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2016 23:02:19 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Radiation damage could stop manned trips to Mars
In-Reply-To: <CADYziYAyUZwOXgmBgVdBomi2VGzXGTMdNkj_oX5NDx336woWog@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armjVL24amkPQtjxNCKaRs1PPxEbtNO4+_wVP36g8aA3D9g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADYziYBw4Mm+BxTmtSfGizPj98DZ0icetJ8FsLHziRCtjfxx7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armhO5NrLEYSfE28gKXXjiUn7EWY+J4cJogbDJ6S==cwNZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADYziYAyUZwOXgmBgVdBomi2VGzXGTMdNkj_oX5NDx336woWog@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armgKzGsLxeegQb+_=8j853ArMdXS8ci7DgVue3s3rZMkhg@mail.gmail.com>

On 11 October 2016 at 21:45, Stephen Van Sickle  wrote:
> Yes, it does.  It matters quite a bit.  If you live in Denver for 80 years,
> your total background dose is abut 1 Sv.  Any effect of that won't be
> measurable.  If you get that dose in one hour, you will show symptoms of
> Acute Radiation Syndrome and have about a 5% chance of dying from it in a
> month.  Rate likely will have a different effect with cosmic radiation than
> with gamma, but a blanket statement that "rate of dosage doesn't matter" is
> just plain wrong.
>
> I also said "take with a big grain of salt", not "disregard entirely".
> Heavy ion radiation is one of the two biggest medical concerns (the other
> being .38 g gravity effects).  It is a serious issue, but like .38 g just
> about impossible to experiment with on earth.  Even if there is an
> accelerator that can create cosmic ray energies (and there isn't), no one
> would tie it up for 2 or 3 years for one experiment.  So they do the
> experiment that they can, not the one which they need.  Very common, but the
> results are rarely definitive.
>


That was bad wording from me.

The experiment used very low doses of charged particles and found that
impairment continued up to 24 weeks after exposure (i.e. no recovery).
Neither the rats nor the astronauts would be exposed to acute
radiation syndrome.

BillK


From cryptaxe at gmail.com  Tue Oct 11 21:49:59 2016
From: cryptaxe at gmail.com (CryptAxe)
Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2016 14:49:59 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Radiation damage could stop manned trips to Mars
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armjVL24amkPQtjxNCKaRs1PPxEbtNO4+_wVP36g8aA3D9g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armjVL24amkPQtjxNCKaRs1PPxEbtNO4+_wVP36g8aA3D9g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAF5CFkgkGMVC4ypsMKEJjDhEZFdO0MTfm+jKybet9P9KHK=G0A@mail.gmail.com>

This is a silly question probably... Could SpaceX/nasa etc build an anti
radiation chamber / pod of some kind for space travelers which would reduce
the exposure to radiation?
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From sjv2006 at gmail.com  Tue Oct 11 23:25:36 2016
From: sjv2006 at gmail.com (Stephen Van Sickle)
Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2016 16:25:36 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Radiation damage could stop manned trips to Mars
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armgKzGsLxeegQb+_=8j853ArMdXS8ci7DgVue3s3rZMkhg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armjVL24amkPQtjxNCKaRs1PPxEbtNO4+_wVP36g8aA3D9g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADYziYBw4Mm+BxTmtSfGizPj98DZ0icetJ8FsLHziRCtjfxx7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armhO5NrLEYSfE28gKXXjiUn7EWY+J4cJogbDJ6S==cwNZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADYziYAyUZwOXgmBgVdBomi2VGzXGTMdNkj_oX5NDx336woWog@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armgKzGsLxeegQb+_=8j853ArMdXS8ci7DgVue3s3rZMkhg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CADYziYBKK1uE-a=F_+ZueFbqRBxN0RCe1hNqAuFbcPnbHEz99Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Oct 11, 2016 at 3:02 PM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:

The experiment used very low doses of charged particles


30 cGy is not a low dose, especially of heavy ions.  It is on the order of
the full dose would get on a trip to Mars, but in minutes instead of years.


steve
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From sjv2006 at gmail.com  Tue Oct 11 23:29:13 2016
From: sjv2006 at gmail.com (Stephen Van Sickle)
Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2016 16:29:13 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Radiation damage could stop manned trips to Mars
In-Reply-To: <CAJrqPH_7+3D_UQbwwBWJwr3Ng-jjWvwmGZGaDuOiwqFXV-r7ug@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armjVL24amkPQtjxNCKaRs1PPxEbtNO4+_wVP36g8aA3D9g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADYziYBw4Mm+BxTmtSfGizPj98DZ0icetJ8FsLHziRCtjfxx7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armhO5NrLEYSfE28gKXXjiUn7EWY+J4cJogbDJ6S==cwNZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADYziYAyUZwOXgmBgVdBomi2VGzXGTMdNkj_oX5NDx336woWog@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJrqPH_7+3D_UQbwwBWJwr3Ng-jjWvwmGZGaDuOiwqFXV-r7ug@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CADYziYAn3GG9Us6ddziqnf8DxFRaqfQnstHkFgyJTnMZ63hq9A@mail.gmail.com>

 It would be very hard to do for the high energy particles this paper
discusses.  But probably not impossible.

On Tue, Oct 11, 2016 at 2:46 PM, Dylan Distasio <interzone at gmail.com> wrote:

> I haven't read the paper, but isn't a self generated magnetic field
> surrounding the living  sections a possible solution for this?
>
> On Oct 11, 2016 4:46 PM, "Stephen Van Sickle" <sjv2006 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Oct 11, 2016 at 12:40 PM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 11 October 2016 at 19:57, Stephen Van Sickle wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> This lab is part of NASA?s Human
>>> Research Program
>>>
>>
>> So what?  NASA is as capable of bad science as anyone.
>>
>>
>>> The rate of
>>> dosage doesn't matter.
>>
>>
>> Yes, it does.  It matters quite a bit.  If you live in Denver for 80
>> years, your total background dose is abut 1 Sv.  Any effect of that won't
>> be measurable.  If you get that dose in one hour, you will show symptoms of
>> Acute Radiation Syndrome and have about a 5% chance of dying from it in a
>> month.  Rate likely will have a different effect with cosmic radiation than
>> with gamma, but a blanket statement that "rate of dosage doesn't matter" is
>> just plain wrong.
>>
>> I also said "take with a big grain of salt", not "disregard entirely".
>> Heavy ion radiation is one of the two biggest medical concerns (the other
>> being .38 g gravity effects).  It is a serious issue, but like .38 g just
>> about impossible to experiment with on earth.  Even if there is an
>> accelerator that can create cosmic ray energies (and there isn't), no one
>> would tie it up for 2 or 3 years for one experiment.  So they do the
>> experiment that they can, not the one which they need.  Very common, but
>> the results are rarely definitive.
>>
>> s
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From sjv2006 at gmail.com  Tue Oct 11 23:31:16 2016
From: sjv2006 at gmail.com (Stephen Van Sickle)
Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2016 16:31:16 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Radiation damage could stop manned trips to Mars
In-Reply-To: <CAF5CFkgkGMVC4ypsMKEJjDhEZFdO0MTfm+jKybet9P9KHK=G0A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armjVL24amkPQtjxNCKaRs1PPxEbtNO4+_wVP36g8aA3D9g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAF5CFkgkGMVC4ypsMKEJjDhEZFdO0MTfm+jKybet9P9KHK=G0A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CADYziYA1k3rS72=sZKJt+YOyrM4dU=c_jUDxb0_dQ3EVCamsMw@mail.gmail.com>

The standard thinking is to have a "storm shelter" for solar storms.  But
the mass to protect against the high energy particles that the paper
studied wouldn't be practical for a spacecraft.


On Tue, Oct 11, 2016 at 2:49 PM, CryptAxe <cryptaxe at gmail.com> wrote:

> This is a silly question probably... Could SpaceX/nasa etc build an anti
> radiation chamber / pod of some kind for space travelers which would reduce
> the exposure to radiation?
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From pharos at gmail.com  Tue Oct 11 23:37:14 2016
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2016 00:37:14 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Radiation damage could stop manned trips to Mars
In-Reply-To: <CADYziYBKK1uE-a=F_+ZueFbqRBxN0RCe1hNqAuFbcPnbHEz99Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armjVL24amkPQtjxNCKaRs1PPxEbtNO4+_wVP36g8aA3D9g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADYziYBw4Mm+BxTmtSfGizPj98DZ0icetJ8FsLHziRCtjfxx7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armhO5NrLEYSfE28gKXXjiUn7EWY+J4cJogbDJ6S==cwNZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADYziYAyUZwOXgmBgVdBomi2VGzXGTMdNkj_oX5NDx336woWog@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armgKzGsLxeegQb+_=8j853ArMdXS8ci7DgVue3s3rZMkhg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADYziYBKK1uE-a=F_+ZueFbqRBxN0RCe1hNqAuFbcPnbHEz99Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armgqKr-LeM=uqVeGF3sDXNJhTSMxkrbvJQR2SOtZsG8_3Q@mail.gmail.com>

On 12 October 2016 at 00:25, Stephen Van Sickle  wrote:
> 30 cGy is not a low dose, especially of heavy ions.  It is on the order of
> the full dose would get on a trip to Mars, but in minutes instead of years.
>

Obviously you disagree with the scientists involved.

Quote from the paper:
Here, we extend our studies longer term and show convincingly that
very low doses of charged particles can compromise cognitive
performance at not only 12, but 24 weeks after acute exposure, effects
that are associated with reductions in dendritic complexity, changes
in synaptic protein levels and elevations in neuroinflammation.
-----------

BillK


From sjv2006 at gmail.com  Tue Oct 11 23:41:43 2016
From: sjv2006 at gmail.com (Stephen Van Sickle)
Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2016 16:41:43 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Radiation damage could stop manned trips to Mars
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armgqKr-LeM=uqVeGF3sDXNJhTSMxkrbvJQR2SOtZsG8_3Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armjVL24amkPQtjxNCKaRs1PPxEbtNO4+_wVP36g8aA3D9g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADYziYBw4Mm+BxTmtSfGizPj98DZ0icetJ8FsLHziRCtjfxx7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armhO5NrLEYSfE28gKXXjiUn7EWY+J4cJogbDJ6S==cwNZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADYziYAyUZwOXgmBgVdBomi2VGzXGTMdNkj_oX5NDx336woWog@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armgKzGsLxeegQb+_=8j853ArMdXS8ci7DgVue3s3rZMkhg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADYziYBKK1uE-a=F_+ZueFbqRBxN0RCe1hNqAuFbcPnbHEz99Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armgqKr-LeM=uqVeGF3sDXNJhTSMxkrbvJQR2SOtZsG8_3Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CADYziYAUikyLBNFh5pCRYvzCJMvwE=7A3J0RA7zYs8ry35h=TA@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Oct 11, 2016 at 4:37 PM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:

Obviously you disagree with the scientists involved.
>

It would be far from the first time I have read a paper where the
conclusions did not match the presented data.

s
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From anders at aleph.se  Tue Oct 11 23:24:13 2016
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2016 00:24:13 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Radiation damage could stop manned trips to Mars
In-Reply-To: <CAJrqPH_7+3D_UQbwwBWJwr3Ng-jjWvwmGZGaDuOiwqFXV-r7ug@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armjVL24amkPQtjxNCKaRs1PPxEbtNO4+_wVP36g8aA3D9g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADYziYBw4Mm+BxTmtSfGizPj98DZ0icetJ8FsLHziRCtjfxx7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armhO5NrLEYSfE28gKXXjiUn7EWY+J4cJogbDJ6S==cwNZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADYziYAyUZwOXgmBgVdBomi2VGzXGTMdNkj_oX5NDx336woWog@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJrqPH_7+3D_UQbwwBWJwr3Ng-jjWvwmGZGaDuOiwqFXV-r7ug@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4939888f-9a85-0c8c-db0c-ab833618087f@aleph.se>

On 2016-10-11 22:46, Dylan Distasio wrote:
>
> I haven't read the paper, but isn't a self generated magnetic field 
> surrounding the living  sections a possible solution for this?
>

If I remember right, you need a pretty hefty magnetic field to deflect 
cosmic rays:
https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/214771/how-strong-a-magnetic-field-would-be-needed-to-deflect-cosmic-rays

But there are people exploring options:
http://www.minimagnetosphere.rl.ac.uk/

I would place the water and fuel tanks around the hab section.


-- 
Dr Anders Sandberg
Future of Humanity Institute
Oxford Martin School
Oxford University



From fhb3.evolute at gmail.com  Wed Oct 12 01:21:04 2016
From: fhb3.evolute at gmail.com (Forrest Bennett)
Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2016 18:21:04 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Lee Corbin Memorial Details, Sunday Oct 16, 3PM PDT
Message-ID: <CABkqLO5jWB0uiRh6UTuqbCaJ0dGezdUP677dLDgv1eEGkGoHAA@mail.gmail.com>

A Memorial Service to Celebrate the Life of

Lee Corbin
March 28, 1948 - August 17, 2016

Date: Sunday October 16
Time: 3PM PDT
Location: 68 Willow Road, Menlo Park, CA 94025

Lee Corbin was not just a truly unique mind, but a beloved friend and a
huge influence on so many of us. We'll be celebrating his life at a
memorial service open to all who knew him.

Bring your favorite stories about Lee to share.

Please RSVP to give us a rough idea of how many people to expect.
Email RSVP to <fhb3.evolute at gmail.com>.

Regards,

Forrest Bennett
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From lubkin at unreasonable.com  Wed Oct 12 03:33:31 2016
From: lubkin at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin)
Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2016 23:33:31 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Lee Corbin Memorial Details, Sunday Oct 16, 3PM PDT
In-Reply-To: <CABkqLO5jWB0uiRh6UTuqbCaJ0dGezdUP677dLDgv1eEGkGoHAA@mail.g
 mail.com>
References: <CABkqLO5jWB0uiRh6UTuqbCaJ0dGezdUP677dLDgv1eEGkGoHAA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <201610120350.u9C3oObi002104@ziaspace.com>


>Lee Corbin was not just a truly unique mind, but 
>a beloved friend and a huge influence on so many 
>of us. We'll be celebrating his life at a 
>memorial service open to all who knew him.

I remember Lee. We weren't close but every year 
or so for decades we'd take a topic offline. We 
had a lot in common that we never took the chance 
to explore. The trouble with the immortalist 
perspective is you always think there's more time.

On chess, Lee was a Life Member of the USCF. His 
last rating (from 1990) was 2207, which is just 
over the mark for USCF Master. That's good enough 
for the new lowest FIDE rung, Candidate Master (CM).

http://www.uschess.org/msa/MbrDtlMain.php?10460786

I think nearly all the Bostropians who'd known 
him have moved away, or gone beyond the rim 
except for me and Mike Lorrey. But I will, at 
least, raise a glass on Sunday at 6 PM EDT ? to 
Lee, and then to our other absent friends.

May we see them again, one way or another.


-- David.




From spike66 at att.net  Wed Oct 12 04:10:41 2016
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2016 21:10:41 -0700
Subject: [ExI] biology term
Message-ID: <009901d2243e$9901ccd0$cb056670$@att.net>



With the topic of Lee Corbin coming up, I am reminded of the last discussion
we had, which has been nearly a year ago.  I may bring up topics for the
next couple of months or more as I think of them: things he and I discussed
when together.

I don't know the terminology in genetics which is why I can't look up the
answers, but I think we have some biology hipsters here.

When a mutation is recessive and each parent carries one copy, there is
about a 25% chance the offspring will inherit both copies of the mutation.
In the case of a lot of genetic diseases, if either copy is the
non-mutation, then the disease is not expressed.  So if two carriers of that
mutation mate, then the offspring have about a 50% chance of being a carrier
and about a 25% chance of being free entirely of the mutation.

In the case of Tay-Sachs disease, it is known that some populations (such as
Ashkenazi) have a number of carriers, so the Jewish couples have a known
risk of suffering the heartbreak of a Tay-Sachs baby, who will not survive
to bring them grandchildren.  

Given that a mutation is detrimental in some cases, why does that mutation
survive in a population?  A theory that Lee Corbin and I kicked around is
that in every case where a mutation carries the risk of causing infant death
in a homozygote, there should be some health benefit somehow to the
heterozygote carriers.  In the case of Tay-Sachs, that benefit is an
increased resistance to tuberculosis.  Another example is sickle-cell anemia
gives the heterozygote carriers increased resistance to malaria.

Biology hipsters, what is that phenomenon called?  If I don't know the name
of something I could waste hours Googleing around and finding nada.  Lee
didn't know the term either.  That kind of disease, expressed only in
offspring of two carriers, should have a name.  There might be a name to the
theory that all such maladies must have some corresponding benefit,
otherwise the mutation would gradually disappear due to reduced viability of
the offspring.

spike



From stathisp at gmail.com  Wed Oct 12 05:17:28 2016
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2016 16:17:28 +1100
Subject: [ExI] biology term
In-Reply-To: <009901d2243e$9901ccd0$cb056670$@att.net>
References: <009901d2243e$9901ccd0$cb056670$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAH=2ypV8a+Up+NR2VLv12t=bHfHuF4NnueRLCFWdwJQXE2S+fQ@mail.gmail.com>

Heterozygous advantage.

On Wednesday, 12 October 2016, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

>
>
> With the topic of Lee Corbin coming up, I am reminded of the last
> discussion
> we had, which has been nearly a year ago.  I may bring up topics for the
> next couple of months or more as I think of them: things he and I discussed
> when together.
>
> I don't know the terminology in genetics which is why I can't look up the
> answers, but I think we have some biology hipsters here.
>
> When a mutation is recessive and each parent carries one copy, there is
> about a 25% chance the offspring will inherit both copies of the mutation.
> In the case of a lot of genetic diseases, if either copy is the
> non-mutation, then the disease is not expressed.  So if two carriers of
> that
> mutation mate, then the offspring have about a 50% chance of being a
> carrier
> and about a 25% chance of being free entirely of the mutation.
>
> In the case of Tay-Sachs disease, it is known that some populations (such
> as
> Ashkenazi) have a number of carriers, so the Jewish couples have a known
> risk of suffering the heartbreak of a Tay-Sachs baby, who will not survive
> to bring them grandchildren.
>
> Given that a mutation is detrimental in some cases, why does that mutation
> survive in a population?  A theory that Lee Corbin and I kicked around is
> that in every case where a mutation carries the risk of causing infant
> death
> in a homozygote, there should be some health benefit somehow to the
> heterozygote carriers.  In the case of Tay-Sachs, that benefit is an
> increased resistance to tuberculosis.  Another example is sickle-cell
> anemia
> gives the heterozygote carriers increased resistance to malaria.
>
> Biology hipsters, what is that phenomenon called?  If I don't know the name
> of something I could waste hours Googleing around and finding nada.  Lee
> didn't know the term either.  That kind of disease, expressed only in
> offspring of two carriers, should have a name.  There might be a name to
> the
> theory that all such maladies must have some corresponding benefit,
> otherwise the mutation would gradually disappear due to reduced viability
> of
> the offspring.
>
> spike
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <javascript:;>
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>


-- 
Stathis Papaioannou
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Wed Oct 12 16:29:13 2016
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2016 12:29:13 -0400
Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Continuing_Moore=E2=80=99s_law?=
Message-ID: <CAJPayv1U2O354CZtFgw=rBhJpr3cmoEnJX2OBBL0ykjNLboMdA@mail.gmail.com>

In the October 7 2016 issue of the journal Science a transistor with a gate
of only 1 nanometer was reported, currently Intel chips have a 22 nanometer
gate. Instead of silicon this transistor uned molybdenum disulfide (MoS2)
 and a single-walled carbon nanotube. Lead author Sujay Desai said:


*?The semiconductor industry has long assumed that any gate below 5
nanometers wouldn?t work, so anything below that was not even considered.
This research shows that sub-5-nanometer gates should not be discounted.
Industry has been squeezing every last bit of capability out of silicon. By
changing the material from silicon to MoS2, we can make a transistor with a
gate that is just 1 nanometer in length, and operate it like a switch.?*

http://science.sciencemag.org/content/354/6308/99

 John K Clark
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From rex at nosyntax.net  Wed Oct 12 20:24:26 2016
From: rex at nosyntax.net (rex)
Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2016 13:24:26 -0700
Subject: [ExI] biology term
In-Reply-To: <009901d2243e$9901ccd0$cb056670$@att.net>
References: <009901d2243e$9901ccd0$cb056670$@att.net>
Message-ID: <20161012202426.GB12901@nosyntax.net>

spike <spike66 at att.net> [2016-10-11 22:26]:
> 
> 
> When a mutation is recessive and each parent carries one copy, there is
> about a 25% chance the offspring will inherit both copies of the mutation.
> In the case of a lot of genetic diseases, if either copy is the
> non-mutation, then the disease is not expressed.  So if two carriers of that
> mutation mate, then the offspring have about a 50% chance of being a carrier
> and about a 25% chance of being free entirely of the mutation.
> 
> In the case of Tay-Sachs disease, it is known that some populations (such as
> Ashkenazi) have a number of carriers, so the Jewish couples have a known
> risk of suffering the heartbreak of a Tay-Sachs baby, who will not survive
> to bring them grandchildren.  
> 
> Given that a mutation is detrimental in some cases, why does that mutation
> survive in a population?  A theory that Lee Corbin and I kicked around is
> that in every case where a mutation carries the risk of causing infant death
> in a homozygote, there should be some health benefit somehow to the
> heterozygote carriers.  In the case of Tay-Sachs, that benefit is an
> increased resistance to tuberculosis.  Another example is sickle-cell anemia
> gives the heterozygote carriers increased resistance to malaria.
> 
> Biology hipsters, what is that phenomenon called?  If I don't know the name
> of something I could waste hours Googleing around and finding nada.  Lee

There are several terms for it. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balancing_selection

I suspect it's more common than is generally recognized.

-rex
-- 
"You do not examine legislation in light of the benefits it will convey if
 properly administered, but in light of the wrongs it would do and the
 harms it would cause if improperly administered." --Lyndon B. Johnson



From spike66 at att.net  Wed Oct 12 20:52:24 2016
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2016 13:52:24 -0700
Subject: [ExI] biology term
In-Reply-To: <20161012202426.GB12901@nosyntax.net>
References: <009901d2243e$9901ccd0$cb056670$@att.net>
 <20161012202426.GB12901@nosyntax.net>
Message-ID: <000b01d224ca$8968dbb0$9c3a9310$@att.net>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf
Of rex


There are several terms for it. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balancing_selection

I suspect it's more common than is generally recognized.

-rex
--
"You do not examine legislation in light of the benefits it will convey if
properly administered, but in light of the wrongs it would do and the  harms
it would cause if improperly administered." --Lyndon B. Johnson

_______________________________________________



Thanks Rex.  You and Stathis identified it as heterozygote advantage.  I
thought there was a more specific term for that concept, but this states the
notion:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heterozygote_advantage

OK cool, so if we identify a bunch of these heterozygote advantages, then we
could use CRISPR to induce the mutant copy widely.  Then when couples with
the mutation mate, a heterozygous embryo is chosen, then the result is a
healthier population (even though not one which can reproduce haphazardly.)

spike



From foozler83 at gmail.com  Wed Oct 12 21:34:09 2016
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2016 16:34:09 -0500
Subject: [ExI] biology term
In-Reply-To: <000b01d224ca$8968dbb0$9c3a9310$@att.net>
References: <009901d2243e$9901ccd0$cb056670$@att.net>
 <20161012202426.GB12901@nosyntax.net>
 <000b01d224ca$8968dbb0$9c3a9310$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYK-w2hFUwdS83NsarJQ6Xt3AQ=De+y=vwYWU3NXmsCCw@mail.gmail.com>

Is the protection against tuberculosis active where there is
heterzygosticity, or only when the person has two copies and thus Tay
Sachs?  I guess the same question pertains to sickle cell anemia and
malaria.  Anybody know?

bill w

On Wed, Oct 12, 2016 at 3:52 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On
> Behalf
> Of rex
>
>
> There are several terms for it.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balancing_selection
>
> I suspect it's more common than is generally recognized.
>
> -rex
> --
> "You do not examine legislation in light of the benefits it will convey if
> properly administered, but in light of the wrongs it would do and the
> harms
> it would cause if improperly administered." --Lyndon B. Johnson
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
> Thanks Rex.  You and Stathis identified it as heterozygote advantage.  I
> thought there was a more specific term for that concept, but this states
> the
> notion:
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heterozygote_advantage
>
> OK cool, so if we identify a bunch of these heterozygote advantages, then
> we
> could use CRISPR to induce the mutant copy widely.  Then when couples with
> the mutation mate, a heterozygous embryo is chosen, then the result is a
> healthier population (even though not one which can reproduce haphazardly.)
>
> spike
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Wed Oct 12 23:07:00 2016
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2016 18:07:00 -0500
Subject: [ExI] nanonews
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZvMOOadgLR+4P6jtovMZdRg7U2LnS+rpUwMr3jG_E63w@mail.gmail.com>

Note that the silk conducts elec., unlike ordinary silk.  So will your next
silk coat warm you as well?

Eaten any graphene lately?

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/silkworms-spin-super-silk-after-eating-carbon-nanotubes-and-graphene/?WT.mc_id=SA_WR_20161012
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From rex at nosyntax.net  Thu Oct 13 03:16:16 2016
From: rex at nosyntax.net (rex)
Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2016 20:16:16 -0700
Subject: [ExI] biology term
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYK-w2hFUwdS83NsarJQ6Xt3AQ=De+y=vwYWU3NXmsCCw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <009901d2243e$9901ccd0$cb056670$@att.net>
 <20161012202426.GB12901@nosyntax.net>
 <000b01d224ca$8968dbb0$9c3a9310$@att.net>
 <CAO+xQEYK-w2hFUwdS83NsarJQ6Xt3AQ=De+y=vwYWU3NXmsCCw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20161013031616.GA24179@nosyntax.net>

William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com> [2016-10-12 14:35]:
>    Is the protection against tuberculosis active where there is
>    heterzygosticity, or only when the person has two copies and thus Tay
>    Sachs?? I guess the same question pertains to sickle cell anemia and
>    malaria.? Anybody know?

Implied in the term "balancing selection", is that there is a an
optimal balance in a given environment. In an environment with a low
incidence if sickle cell, there is virtually no advantage to carrying
the gene (nothing to protect against) and a small chance of getting
two copies of the gene and developing sickle-cell. The result is that
in regions where malaria is rare, the sickle-cell gene is rare, and
vice-versa.

Tay sachs and some other genetic issues common in Ashkenazi Jews are
related to superior mental ability as well as protection against TB.

TANSTAAFL.

-rex
--



From fhb3.evolute at gmail.com  Thu Oct 13 03:26:39 2016
From: fhb3.evolute at gmail.com (Forrest Bennett)
Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2016 20:26:39 -0700
Subject: [ExI] online link to yahoo memorial
In-Reply-To: <CAH=2ypXLz39RRubAaw1LBUyWMNA1FE4e5KtAONsaVShZMKY-Ag@mail.gmail.com>
References: <003401d223dd$234ba3f0$69e2ebd0$@att.net>
 <CAH=2ypXLz39RRubAaw1LBUyWMNA1FE4e5KtAONsaVShZMKY-Ag@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABkqLO4w+Acxzp6NQA4R-oTniXuXTtFEPK8VuZYHDt2rcWuBqQ@mail.gmail.com>

Yes you are welcome to join the yahoo group: LeeCorbin at yahoogroups.com


On Tue, Oct 11, 2016 at 2:52 PM, Stathis Papaioannou <stathisp at gmail.com>
wrote:

>
>
> On Wednesday, 12 October 2016, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> The recent passing and cryonic suspension of Lee Corbin resulted in his
>> friends setting up a Yahoo group.  The discussion there caused me to learn
>> more about him than I had ever known, discovering dimensions to his
>> personality I knew not, even though we were friends for twenty years and
>> spent plenty of time one on one.
>>
>>
>>
>> We should have some means of linking to those groups, perhaps some way
>> for cryonics groups to create an online list of those who have gone before,
>> with some way to get to an online archive about the cryonaut?s life and
>> passions.
>>
>>
>>
>> Please would someone cross-post this comment over to Alcor cryonics
>> chat?  I am not active on those lists, but might get with it now.  Lee?s
>> passing may inspire others to get with the program on cryonics.
>>
>>
> Is the Yahoo group open to anyone? I didn't meet Lee personally but I
> have had probably hundreds of email exchanges with him over the years on
> this and another mailing list, mostly about personal identity. I never knew
> much about his personal life, since that rarely came up, but nonetheless a
> strange sort of intimacy can develop from these intense intellectual
> discussions, and I have been affected to learn of his death.
>
>
> --
> Stathis Papaioannou
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From rex at nosyntax.net  Thu Oct 13 03:34:45 2016
From: rex at nosyntax.net (rex)
Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2016 20:34:45 -0700
Subject: [ExI] biology term
In-Reply-To: <000b01d224ca$8968dbb0$9c3a9310$@att.net>
References: <009901d2243e$9901ccd0$cb056670$@att.net>
 <20161012202426.GB12901@nosyntax.net>
 <000b01d224ca$8968dbb0$9c3a9310$@att.net>
Message-ID: <20161013033445.GB24179@nosyntax.net>

spike <spike66 at att.net> [2016-10-12 14:07]:
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf
>> Of rex
>> There are several terms for it. 
>> 
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balancing_selection
>> 
>> I suspect it's more common than is generally recognized.
 

> Thanks Rex.  You and Stathis identified it as heterozygote advantage.  I
> thought there was a more specific term for that concept, but this states the
> notion:
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heterozygote_advantage
> 
> OK cool, so if we identify a bunch of these heterozygote advantages, then we
> could use CRISPR to induce the mutant copy widely.  Then when couples with
> the mutation mate, a heterozygous embryo is chosen, then the result is a
> healthier population (even though not one which can reproduce haphazardly.)

Nature will, over the long term, keep the gene frequencies in balance,
while lagging the environment. Fiddling with gene frequencies without
knowing more about the consequences is a risky business.

-rex
--
Theories: Four stages of acceptance: i) this is worthless nonsense; ii)
this is an interesting, but perverse, point of view; iii) this is true,
but quite unimportant; iv) I always said so. (J.B.S. Haldane, Journal of
Genetics #58, 1963,p.464)


From fhb3.evolute at gmail.com  Thu Oct 13 03:53:50 2016
From: fhb3.evolute at gmail.com (Forrest Bennett)
Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2016 20:53:50 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Lee Corbin Memorial Details, Sunday Oct 16, 3PM PDT
In-Reply-To: <CABkqLO5jWB0uiRh6UTuqbCaJ0dGezdUP677dLDgv1eEGkGoHAA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABkqLO5jWB0uiRh6UTuqbCaJ0dGezdUP677dLDgv1eEGkGoHAA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABkqLO79mpmhkwecMDnbDqRyU0gyS4kqWoFqCE3F0EbkrAzTBw@mail.gmail.com>

(Final email about the memorial service.)

The facility is an event space called BootUP World (there's a large sign
viewable from the street), and the service will be held in the Event Studio
room.

In lieu of flowers, donations can be made in Lee's name to Alcor
<http://www.alcor.org/donate/donate.html>.


On Tue, Oct 11, 2016 at 6:21 PM, Forrest Bennett <fhb3.evolute at gmail.com>
wrote:

> A Memorial Service to Celebrate the Life of
>
> Lee Corbin
> March 28, 1948 - August 17, 2016
>
> Date: Sunday October 16
> Time: 3PM PDT
> Location: 68 Willow Road, Menlo Park, CA 94025
>
> Lee Corbin was not just a truly unique mind, but a beloved friend and a
> huge influence on so many of us. We'll be celebrating his life at a
> memorial service open to all who knew him.
>
> Bring your favorite stories about Lee to share.
>
> Please RSVP to give us a rough idea of how many people to expect.
> Email RSVP to <fhb3.evolute at gmail.com>.
>
> Regards,
>
> Forrest Bennett
>
>
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From fhb3.evolute at gmail.com  Thu Oct 13 04:08:25 2016
From: fhb3.evolute at gmail.com (Forrest Bennett)
Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2016 21:08:25 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Memorial for Lee Corbin Sunday Oct 16
In-Reply-To: <e1a85974-2dd1-a43c-4ac5-89087cd759a9@gmail.com>
References: <CABkqLO7xMRtr5gogcXwFQYGgPVJD+nNSizq3pfpOh6b-GdkfAw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABkqLO6zs-QrFJg5v0NkdUELQ+Wg1mFnLupJvJwi-8x3acPDXA@mail.gmail.com>
 <e1a85974-2dd1-a43c-4ac5-89087cd759a9@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABkqLO5FxQymd_VS0AkewCug_=-F4UVDhrTr87EcTok+zCuL5A@mail.gmail.com>

Brent, we will put as many details about Lee as we can up on a website in
the coming weeks.


On Tue, Oct 11, 2016 at 4:05 PM, Brent Allsop <brent.allsop at gmail.com>
wrote:

>
> Thanks for the update!!
>
> It's so frustrating to not know details of such great people and friends.
> Brent
>
>
>
> On 10/10/2016 3:17 PM, Forrest Bennett wrote:
>
> Dear friends of Lee,
>
> Sorry for not providing more details earlier; I didn't quite know what was
> appropriate. After talking to Lee's family and a few close friends I
> decided to provide more information.
>
> Yes, Lee shot his mother and then himself. He left a note that explained
> why he shot his mother: she had extremely advanced dementia and
> zero/negative quality of life and was scheduled for another painful
> operation. He also explained that he had been planning to kill himself for
> 5 months, citing the deterioration of his own mind. Lee had severe sleep
> problems since 2000. He is now with Alcor, although he didn't explain why
> he killed himself in a way that reduced his chances of cryonics success.
> His friends and I remain puzzled and troubled by that.
>
> Lee's family wants you to know that Lee loved his mother very much.
>
> For those here who don't know me, I've been a close friend of Lee's since
> 1988. He and I have been discussing extropian topics and beyond since then.
> I was also on alt.extropians back in the 90's.
>
> Forrest
>
>
> On Sat, Oct 8, 2016 at 3:21 PM, Forrest Bennett <fhb3.evolute at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Hello Everyone,
>>
>> Lee Corbin died in his house on Aug 18. He is now in cryonic suspension
>> at Alcor.
>>
>> We are going to have Lee's memorial service on Sunday October 16th in
>> the early afternoon. The location will be somewhere within ~20 minutes of
>> where Lee lived in Santa Clara, CA.
>>
>> More details on exact time and location soon.
>>
>> We need help contacting Lee's friends. So far, we have contacted 39 of
>> them.
>>
>> If you want to be on LeeCorbin at yahoogroups.com, please contact either:
>> Mark Newbold <mark at dogfeathers.com> or L. William Bradford <
>> hyades at roadrunner.com>.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Forrest
>>
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing listextropy-chat at lists.extropy.orghttp://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
>
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From pharos at gmail.com  Thu Oct 13 09:54:59 2016
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2016 10:54:59 +0100
Subject: [ExI] We are stardust, we are golden......
Message-ID: <CAL_armirA5vn3AZDL9sGKqh0nLNHMoi7yWJ4ba4nVcBQN-G88g@mail.gmail.com>

Not only are we literally made of stardust, but before the stardust
the precursors were created by starlight.

<http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/news.php?feature=6645>

Quote:
News | October 12, 2016
Building Blocks of Life's Building Blocks Come From Starlight


In the early 1940s, CH and CH+ were two of the first three molecules
ever discovered in interstellar space. In examining molecular clouds
-- assemblies of gas and dust -- in Orion with Herschel, scientists
were surprised to find that CH+ is emitting rather than absorbing
light, meaning it is warmer than the background gas. The CH+ molecule
needs a lot of energy to form and is extremely reactive, so it gets
destroyed when it interacts with the background hydrogen in the cloud.
Its warm temperature and high abundance are therefore quite
mysterious.

Why, then, is there so much CH+ in molecular clouds such as the Orion Nebula?

When ultraviolet light from large stars heats up the surrounding
hydrogen molecules, this creates prime conditions for forming
hydrocarbons. As the interstellar hydrogen gets warmer, carbon ions
that originally formed in stars begin to react with the molecular
hydrogen, creating CH+. Eventually the CH+ captures an electron to
form the neutral CH molecule.

"This is the initiation of the whole carbon chemistry," said John
Pearson, researcher at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena,
California, and study co-author. "If you want to form anything more
complicated, it goes through that pathway."

Scientists combined Herschel data with models of molecular formation
and found that ultraviolet light is the best explanation for how
hydrocarbons form in the Orion Nebula.
-------------------------


BillK


From pharos at gmail.com  Thu Oct 13 10:56:02 2016
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2016 11:56:02 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Predicting the future is really difficult
Message-ID: <CAL_armioWki85YAa4vzE005voDhaq6T84nLbRmpdk1_qj5TLrQ@mail.gmail.com>

Takeaway:
A lot of these predictions depend on a very basic methodological
error. They assume that new technology will change the way people live
and work and think and make money?but only in one way. New technology
will revolutionize life in one particular respect, while everything
else will stay the same.

<http://www.realclearfuture.com/articles/2016/10/13/how_not_to_predict_the_future_111945.html>

Quotes:

It's no surprise that futurists tend to do the same thing, and often
for the same motives: wish-fulfillment for their political
preferences. Robots will be doing all of our work for us, they tell
us, so we can finally afford to sit back and enjoy a generous "basic
income" provided by the government. We will have everything powered
with solar energy and batteries and electric cars, so we can finally
shut down the oil companies without having to sacrifice our First
World lifestyle. These are the fondest wishes of those with a certain
cultural or political predisposition, so it is comforting to hear
projections that technology will inevitably deliver these things.

(There is also a perverse mirror image of this, which is that there is
always a market for dystopian predictions which tell us that
technology is going to destroy us, as we always knew it would in the
end.)

There is certainly a purpose in asking what would happen if a
technological disruption goes all the way in a certain direction, as a
kind of thought experiment. And sometimes the extreme possibilities
come true, or close to it. How many people predicted, for example,
that the phone call would be in danger of becoming obsolete?

But we should also maintain some skepticism about how likely we really
are to get it right?particularly when our forecasts fall in just a
little too well with our wishes.

------------------


BillK



From foozler83 at gmail.com  Thu Oct 13 14:00:09 2016
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2016 09:00:09 -0500
Subject: [ExI] biology term
In-Reply-To: <20161013033445.GB24179@nosyntax.net>
References: <009901d2243e$9901ccd0$cb056670$@att.net>
 <20161012202426.GB12901@nosyntax.net>
 <000b01d224ca$8968dbb0$9c3a9310$@att.net>
 <20161013033445.GB24179@nosyntax.net>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEagKDzhg=uYT1L_YYJ0YimtPazWMz-nF0t5MBoXf0mcdQ@mail.gmail.com>

Yes, first, do no harm.  Yet experiments in gengineering with mice and
other animals is not the same as doing them with people.  So how are we
going to know that we are doing no harm when we fiddle with human genetics?

We will do it anyway.  Just look at antibiotics - when they first came out
they cured things previously uncurable things, and germs became a bad word
and we bought and are still buying anything that will kill them.  Now we
know that we created jillions of problems by killing off gut flora with
those same life-saving antiobiotics, and increased a host of problems.

My latest book, B

On Wed, Oct 12, 2016 at 10:34 PM, rex <rex at nosyntax.net> wrote:

> spike <spike66 at att.net> [2016-10-12 14:07]:
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On
> Behalf
> >> Of rex
> >> There are several terms for it.
> >>
> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balancing_selection
> >>
> >> I suspect it's more common than is generally recognized.
>
>
> > Thanks Rex.  You and Stathis identified it as heterozygote advantage.  I
> > thought there was a more specific term for that concept, but this states
> the
> > notion:
> >
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heterozygote_advantage
> >
> > OK cool, so if we identify a bunch of these heterozygote advantages,
> then we
> > could use CRISPR to induce the mutant copy widely.  Then when couples
> with
> > the mutation mate, a heterozygous embryo is chosen, then the result is a
> > healthier population (even though not one which can reproduce
> haphazardly.)
>
> Nature will, over the long term, keep the gene frequencies in balance,
> while lagging the environment. Fiddling with gene frequencies without
> knowing more about the consequences is a risky business.
>
> -rex
> --
> Theories: Four stages of acceptance: i) this is worthless nonsense; ii)
> this is an interesting, but perverse, point of view; iii) this is true,
> but quite unimportant; iv) I always said so. (J.B.S. Haldane, Journal of
> Genetics #58, 1963,p.464)
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike66 at att.net  Thu Oct 13 14:16:39 2016
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2016 07:16:39 -0700
Subject: [ExI] biology term
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEagKDzhg=uYT1L_YYJ0YimtPazWMz-nF0t5MBoXf0mcdQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <009901d2243e$9901ccd0$cb056670$@att.net>
 <20161012202426.GB12901@nosyntax.net>
 <000b01d224ca$8968dbb0$9c3a9310$@att.net>
 <20161013033445.GB24179@nosyntax.net>
 <CAO+xQEagKDzhg=uYT1L_YYJ0YimtPazWMz-nF0t5MBoXf0mcdQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <003c01d2255c$6b040450$410c0cf0$@att.net>

 

 

>? On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace
Subject: Re: [ExI] biology term

 

>?Yes, first, do no harm.  ?  Now we know that we created jillions of problems by killing off gut flora with those same life-saving antiobiotics, and increased a host of problems.

 

>?My latest book, B

 

 

BillW, you were on a roll here, but it looks like you were cut off mid-sentence.  I was hoping someone who knows stuff will post on this topic.  We don?t know where to call 911 if you have a stroke mid keystroke.

 

What about your latest book?  All this time we didn?t even know you are a published author.  Thou hidest thy candle under a bushel sir.

 

spike

 

 

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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Thu Oct 13 14:53:14 2016
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2016 09:53:14 -0500
Subject: [ExI] biology term
In-Reply-To: <003c01d2255c$6b040450$410c0cf0$@att.net>
References: <009901d2243e$9901ccd0$cb056670$@att.net>
 <20161012202426.GB12901@nosyntax.net>
 <000b01d224ca$8968dbb0$9c3a9310$@att.net>
 <20161013033445.GB24179@nosyntax.net>
 <CAO+xQEagKDzhg=uYT1L_YYJ0YimtPazWMz-nF0t5MBoXf0mcdQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <003c01d2255c$6b040450$410c0cf0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbi5qdOS_=XvFjOojVDuVMku1+85r5VgwZB9kfvm-bNUQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Oct 13, 2016 at 9:16 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *>?* *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] biology term
>
>
>
> >?Yes, first, do no harm.  ?  Now we know that we created jillions of
> problems by killing off gut flora with those same life-saving antiobiotics,
> and increased a host of problems.
>
>
>
> >?My latest book, B
>
>
>
>
>
> BillW, you were on a roll here, but it looks like you were cut off
> mid-sentence.  I was hoping someone who knows stuff will post on this
> topic.  We don?t know where to call 911 if you have a stroke mid keystroke.
>
>
>
> What about your latest book?  All this time we didn?t even know you are a
> published author.  Thou hidest thy candle under a bushel sir.
>
>
>
> spike
>

?
Fiddling with gene frequencies without
knowing more about the consequences is a risky business.
rex
?


?Sorry - this happens a lot to me and I hit a couple of wrong keys (wish I
knew which ones) and my draft either gets sent prematurely or it disappears
entirely.

My question relating to the last post is this:  how can we avoid harm by
gengineering humans when there is no comparable species to test the changes
on?  Maybe it is unavoidable that changes will cause bad problems that will
have to be worked out.  I have no idea how the medical ethics people will
work this out.

The latest book I read, Brain Maker, by the author of Grain Brain, makes a
strong case for the following diseases to be involved with disturbances in
gut bacteria (can't say caused yet):
 depression, autism, MS, anxiety, Parkinson's, chronic headaches, and a lot
more.?

?I am much more convinced by the evidence he presents than I was by Grain
Brain.

Medical people had a toy in the 1940s - antibiotics.  It was a wonderful
treatment for many things that previously were uncurable.  Kill all  the
germs - make germs a bad word.  Now we know that there was a big downside
that we are still experiencing:  antibiotics wiped out gut bacteria that
were first established by vaginal birth and breast milk and no efforts to
reestablish them were done - and are still not done by the average
physician.

Effect:  increases in obesity, autism and more.  "First do no harm" did not
apply.

 We are still largely in the dark about probiotics (and prebiotics, which
the gut bacteria feed on, mostly fiber, fermented foods, etc.), but he
quotes some amazing studies that are affecting autism and much more by
changing diet, adding probiotics, or in the extreme, getting fecal implants
full of probiotics.  He has a list of good probiotics and a week's diet
plan (not very reasonable, imo).

Highly recommended.  David Perlmutter, author.

(I got a really funny look from a nurse when I commented on the bottle of
alcohol rub for killing germs on your hands when I was at the doctor's
lately - I said "In the future that bottle will be gone.  You will be
better off going around kissing everybody on the mouth than trying to kill
germs on your hands." )

bill w  ?

>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From pharos at gmail.com  Thu Oct 13 16:14:09 2016
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2016 17:14:09 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Observable Universe contains ten times more galaxies than
	previously thought
Message-ID: <CAL_armg0rX4kgymR30mhKrvMd5zuR_Ac3xa82Q+7=2=RccdxcA@mail.gmail.com>

Observable Universe contains ten times more galaxies than previously thought
October 13, 2016

<http://phys.org/news/2016-10-universe-ten-galaxies-previously-thought.html>

Quotes:

In analysing the data the team looked more than 13 billion years into
the past. This showed them that galaxies are not evenly distributed
throughout the Universe's history. In fact, it appears that there were
a factor of 10 more galaxies per unit volume when the Universe was
only a few billion years old compared with today. Most of these
galaxies were relatively small and faint, with masses similar to those
of the satellite galaxies surrounding the Milky Way.

These results are powerful evidence that a significant evolution has
taken place throughout the Universe's history, an evolution during
which galaxies merged together, dramatically reducing their total
number. "This gives us a verification of the so-called top-down
formation of structure in the Universe," explains Conselice.
----------------


For a minute I was worried that this means it would take me ten times
longer to visit them all, but apparently as we are looking into the
past they have now merged down into a much more reasonable number.
(For a big definition of 'reasonable').

BillK


From anders at aleph.se  Wed Oct 12 07:52:57 2016
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders)
Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2016 08:52:57 +0100
Subject: [ExI] biology term
In-Reply-To: <009901d2243e$9901ccd0$cb056670$@att.net>
References: <009901d2243e$9901ccd0$cb056670$@att.net>
Message-ID: <77cbbdd4-4942-93e7-26c8-0a92d65f43ba@aleph.se>

We can model it like this: assume the probability that one chromosome 
has the mutation is p. The risk of having two copies is p^2, one copy 
2p(1-p). When you have one copy you have fitness y, with two fitness x, 
and fitness 1 if one has none. Finally, there is a probability q that a 
new mutation will make a chromosome to switch to the mutation.

Given this, the next generation will have (1-q)^2(1-p)^2 + y(1-q)p(1-p) 
chromosomes without the mutation (first term matings between 
non-carriers, second matings between heterozygous people). There will be 
xp^2 + y(1-q)p(1-p) + (1-(1-q)^2)(1-p)^2 + yqp(1-p) copies (matings 
homozygos people, heterozygous, mutations in non-carriers and in 
heterozygous carriers).  Normalizing we get

p = [ xp^2 + y(1-q)p(1-p) + (1-(1-q)^2)(1-p)^2 + yqp(1-p) ]/ 
[(1-q)^2(1-p)^2 + y(1-q)p(1-p) + xp^2 + y(1-q)p(1-p) + 
(1-(1-q)^2)(1-p)^2 + yqp(1-p) ]

I need to catch a flight, so I do not have the time to do the algebra, 
but if you do this right (I may have dropped a term or a factor 
somewhere) you will get an equilibrium p dependent on x, y and q. q 
refills the population even if there is no heterozygous advantage.


On 2016-10-12 05:10, spike wrote:
>
> With the topic of Lee Corbin coming up, I am reminded of the last discussion
> we had, which has been nearly a year ago.  I may bring up topics for the
> next couple of months or more as I think of them: things he and I discussed
> when together.
>
> I don't know the terminology in genetics which is why I can't look up the
> answers, but I think we have some biology hipsters here.
>
> When a mutation is recessive and each parent carries one copy, there is
> about a 25% chance the offspring will inherit both copies of the mutation.
> In the case of a lot of genetic diseases, if either copy is the
> non-mutation, then the disease is not expressed.  So if two carriers of that
> mutation mate, then the offspring have about a 50% chance of being a carrier
> and about a 25% chance of being free entirely of the mutation.
>
> In the case of Tay-Sachs disease, it is known that some populations (such as
> Ashkenazi) have a number of carriers, so the Jewish couples have a known
> risk of suffering the heartbreak of a Tay-Sachs baby, who will not survive
> to bring them grandchildren.
>
> Given that a mutation is detrimental in some cases, why does that mutation
> survive in a population?  A theory that Lee Corbin and I kicked around is
> that in every case where a mutation carries the risk of causing infant death
> in a homozygote, there should be some health benefit somehow to the
> heterozygote carriers.  In the case of Tay-Sachs, that benefit is an
> increased resistance to tuberculosis.  Another example is sickle-cell anemia
> gives the heterozygote carriers increased resistance to malaria.
>
> Biology hipsters, what is that phenomenon called?  If I don't know the name
> of something I could waste hours Googleing around and finding nada.  Lee
> didn't know the term either.  That kind of disease, expressed only in
> offspring of two carriers, should have a name.  There might be a name to the
> theory that all such maladies must have some corresponding benefit,
> otherwise the mutation would gradually disappear due to reduced viability of
> the offspring.
>
> spike
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

-- 
Dr Anders Sandberg
Future of Humanity Institute
Oxford Martin School
Oxford University



From atymes at gmail.com  Thu Oct 13 18:21:49 2016
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2016 11:21:49 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Here comes a new challenger
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNS=8zwfgTFnWnKuB1spD6SE+Kkt0RRGAiLnoGmpYkp6Gg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALAdGNRV-M+C572fERUNFefLtg=EG1OtJ-ZQtv3DGSbZ9nixWA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQgKSQPx-J2_7Op2pNA1nP=PEXwuyJfVwZC9x8w_OAxEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNS=8zwfgTFnWnKuB1spD6SE+Kkt0RRGAiLnoGmpYkp6Gg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNSjjScGGBcv6TqY_NH8pRa1WwTax34O4R1kSGPgL6+rjw@mail.gmail.com>

Apparently, Evan McMullin is now polling high enough in Utah to have a shot
at winning that state.

He does not have ballot access on enough states to even theoretically win
the whole race, but to win even one elector would be an accomplishment.
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From bbenzai at yahoo.com  Thu Oct 13 18:33:49 2016
From: bbenzai at yahoo.com (Ben)
Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2016 19:33:49 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Posting to the list
In-Reply-To: <mailman.24.1476376466.601.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.24.1476376466.601.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <57FFD38D.30002@yahoo.com>

William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:

"this happens a lot to me and I hit a couple of wrong keys (wish I knew which ones) and my draft either gets sent prematurely or it disappears entirely."


I've long ago learned that it's best to use a text-editor that's independent of the vehicle I want to use to transmit my message, then I can save it, edit it, and only when I'm ready, copy-and-paste it into the relevant system (email, facebook, whatever). That way, I'm not at the mercy of different system's ideas of how I should be typing, formatting, spelling, etc., and it's a lot less likely that a single keystroke can wreck things, as there's only one system to learn.

I recomment NoteTab Light, it's a bit like MS Notepad but a lot better.

Ben Zaiboc



From spike66 at att.net  Fri Oct 14 00:26:30 2016
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2016 17:26:30 -0700
Subject: [ExI] biology term
In-Reply-To: <77cbbdd4-4942-93e7-26c8-0a92d65f43ba@aleph.se>
References: <009901d2243e$9901ccd0$cb056670$@att.net>
 <77cbbdd4-4942-93e7-26c8-0a92d65f43ba@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <007101d225b1$9c5793f0$d506bbd0$@att.net>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf
Of Anders
Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2016 12:53 AM
To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
Subject: Re: [ExI] biology term


>>... I don't know the terminology in genetics which is why I can't look up 
>> the answers, but I think we have some biology hipsters here.... spike

>...  Normalizing we get

p = [ xp^2 + y(1-q)p(1-p) + (1-(1-q)^2)(1-p)^2 + yqp(1-p) ]/
[(1-q)^2(1-p)^2 + y(1-q)p(1-p) + xp^2 + y(1-q)p(1-p) +
(1-(1-q)^2)(1-p)^2 + yqp(1-p) ]... Dr Anders Sandberg


Anders this is so cool!


>...I need to catch a flight...

This got me started, thanks.  Off to the races!

In the old days before the internet, we worked out equations like this.  Now
notice I first Googled, then asked my community of gurus (found the answer
that way) but didn't start with trying to derive the equation.  The object
lesson was not missed: next time, calculate first, wait for that approach to
fail, then look up the answers.  I was lazy because biology isn't my area of
expertise.  Had it been an orbit mechanics question, I mighta calculated
first.  Now... no more lazy for the spikester.

spike



From anders at aleph.se  Fri Oct 14 07:43:21 2016
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders)
Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2016 08:43:21 +0100
Subject: [ExI] biology term
In-Reply-To: <007101d225b1$9c5793f0$d506bbd0$@att.net>
References: <009901d2243e$9901ccd0$cb056670$@att.net>
 <77cbbdd4-4942-93e7-26c8-0a92d65f43ba@aleph.se>
 <007101d225b1$9c5793f0$d506bbd0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <9b998af3-50ce-69fe-8657-4358433e023d@aleph.se>

On 2016-10-14 01:26, spike wrote:
>
> In the old days before the internet, we worked out equations like this.  Now
> notice I first Googled, then asked my community of gurus (found the answer
> that way) but didn't start with trying to derive the equation.  The object
> lesson was not missed: next time, calculate first, wait for that approach to
> fail, then look up the answers.  I was lazy because biology isn't my area of
> expertise.  Had it been an orbit mechanics question, I mighta calculated
> first.  Now... no more lazy for the spikester.

To be fair, this kind of genetic equation is a mess, and if one is not 
careful there will be confusion. I would suggest grabbing a copy of "The 
Genetics of Human Populations" by Luigi Cavalli-Sforza - this is an 
awesome pre-genomics book, describing the classical state of the art. I 
know it solves balanced selection in one of the early chapters.

Or, one can have fun and make a Monte Carlo simulation. Little agents 
with two chromosomes swim around, randomly mate, mutate, and their 
offspring survive at different rates...

I would try to hack that together right now, in fact, but I need to rush 
to a tutorial. I got a student! Muhahahaha!!! So I guess this can be 
left as an exercise... :-)

-- 
Dr Anders Sandberg
Future of Humanity Institute
Oxford Martin School
Oxford University



From johnkclark at gmail.com  Fri Oct 14 16:23:49 2016
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2016 12:23:49 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Here comes a new challenger
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNSjjScGGBcv6TqY_NH8pRa1WwTax34O4R1kSGPgL6+rjw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALAdGNRV-M+C572fERUNFefLtg=EG1OtJ-ZQtv3DGSbZ9nixWA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQgKSQPx-J2_7Op2pNA1nP=PEXwuyJfVwZC9x8w_OAxEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNS=8zwfgTFnWnKuB1spD6SE+Kkt0RRGAiLnoGmpYkp6Gg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNSjjScGGBcv6TqY_NH8pRa1WwTax34O4R1kSGPgL6+rjw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv3AuyprsBxZM5f=WfM+u_zmOAE5L1sqqAMSWJT=_Uj7jQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Oct 13, 2016 at 2:21 PM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:

> ?> ?
> Apparently, Evan McMullin is now polling high enough in Utah to have a
> shot at winning that state.
>
> ?
McMullin might win Utah,
? ?
it's a long shot
? ?
(about 3%)
? ?
but he has a much better chance of winning a electoral vote than any
? ?
other
? ?
minor party candidate. Overall things had improved a lot, it now looks like
that on November 8 we will only be forced to play a traditional game of
Russian Roulette with one bullet in the cylinder and not 3 as i
?t?
was a few weeks ago; both
? ?
Nate Silver
? ?
and the betting odds agree there is only about one chance in 6 that in 99
days Donald Trump will have his finger on the nuclear trigger.

 John K Clark

 ?
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From anders at aleph.se  Fri Oct 14 16:28:54 2016
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders)
Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2016 17:28:54 +0100
Subject: [ExI] biology term
In-Reply-To: <9b998af3-50ce-69fe-8657-4358433e023d@aleph.se>
References: <009901d2243e$9901ccd0$cb056670$@att.net>
 <77cbbdd4-4942-93e7-26c8-0a92d65f43ba@aleph.se>
 <007101d225b1$9c5793f0$d506bbd0$@att.net>
 <9b998af3-50ce-69fe-8657-4358433e023d@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <6a0ef285-10d9-d9b8-09b0-a0f3fb259c39@aleph.se>

I found the book in my office, the relevant section starts on page 124.

If the fraction of chromosomes with allele A is p and the remaining 
q=1-p have allele a, then if the fitness of AA is w1, Aa w2 and aa w3, 
the possible equilibrium fraction is p=(w2-w3)/((w2-w1) + (w2-w3)) 
(beside the obvious cases of p=0 and 1). If the fitness w2 is set to 1 
and w1=1-s and w2=1-t we get the nice formula p/q = t/s, which is valid 
even if they both are negative (i.e. there is a heterozygous 
disadvantage) but it is not a stable equilibrium.

On p. 131 they show that adding mutations does not change the situation 
much: the equilibrium doesn't shift much for reasonable mutation rates. 
This also means that if there is no heterozygous advantage at 
equilibrium mutations will only add a small fraction of the allele.



On 2016-10-14 08:43, Anders wrote:
> On 2016-10-14 01:26, spike wrote:
>>
>> In the old days before the internet, we worked out equations like 
>> this.  Now
>> notice I first Googled, then asked my community of gurus (found the 
>> answer
>> that way) but didn't start with trying to derive the equation. The 
>> object
>> lesson was not missed: next time, calculate first, wait for that 
>> approach to
>> fail, then look up the answers.  I was lazy because biology isn't my 
>> area of
>> expertise.  Had it been an orbit mechanics question, I mighta calculated
>> first.  Now... no more lazy for the spikester.
>
> To be fair, this kind of genetic equation is a mess, and if one is not 
> careful there will be confusion. I would suggest grabbing a copy of 
> "The Genetics of Human Populations" by Luigi Cavalli-Sforza - this is 
> an awesome pre-genomics book, describing the classical state of the 
> art. I know it solves balanced selection in one of the early chapters.
>
> Or, one can have fun and make a Monte Carlo simulation. Little agents 
> with two chromosomes swim around, randomly mate, mutate, and their 
> offspring survive at different rates...
>
> I would try to hack that together right now, in fact, but I need to 
> rush to a tutorial. I got a student! Muhahahaha!!! So I guess this can 
> be left as an exercise... :-)
>

-- 
Dr Anders Sandberg
Future of Humanity Institute
Oxford Martin School
Oxford University



From anders at aleph.se  Fri Oct 14 16:54:48 2016
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders)
Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2016 17:54:48 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Observable Universe contains ten times more galaxies than
 previously thought
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armg0rX4kgymR30mhKrvMd5zuR_Ac3xa82Q+7=2=RccdxcA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armg0rX4kgymR30mhKrvMd5zuR_Ac3xa82Q+7=2=RccdxcA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <67607cfe-a637-1e1d-9921-00c7e9373c70@aleph.se>

Yes, this news is based on a very odd use of the present tense. 
Astronomers may be fine with considering the "present" as the surface of 
our past light cone, but most of us prefer to consider the unreachable 
volumes with the same cosmological time as us as being "now".


On 2016-10-13 17:14, BillK wrote:
> Observable Universe contains ten times more galaxies than previously thought
> October 13, 2016
>
> <http://phys.org/news/2016-10-universe-ten-galaxies-previously-thought.html>
>
> Quotes:
>
> In analysing the data the team looked more than 13 billion years into
> the past. This showed them that galaxies are not evenly distributed
> throughout the Universe's history. In fact, it appears that there were
> a factor of 10 more galaxies per unit volume when the Universe was
> only a few billion years old compared with today. Most of these
> galaxies were relatively small and faint, with masses similar to those
> of the satellite galaxies surrounding the Milky Way.
>
> These results are powerful evidence that a significant evolution has
> taken place throughout the Universe's history, an evolution during
> which galaxies merged together, dramatically reducing their total
> number. "This gives us a verification of the so-called top-down
> formation of structure in the Universe," explains Conselice.
> ----------------
>
>
> For a minute I was worried that this means it would take me ten times
> longer to visit them all, but apparently as we are looking into the
> past they have now merged down into a much more reasonable number.
> (For a big definition of 'reasonable').
>
> BillK
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

-- 
Dr Anders Sandberg
Future of Humanity Institute
Oxford Martin School
Oxford University



From legionara at openmailbox.org  Sun Oct 16 19:59:09 2016
From: legionara at openmailbox.org (Legionara)
Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2016 15:59:09 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Testing - do you see this message?
In-Reply-To: <CAKTCJyesx8uVqJ7pydctH0Vc4GnzfSm+mk-ZFbCtG+BPKe-uxQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <VXUSfbHkZhy3hVFHEui3gKV7EAmdaP5G0HO-3kd86Au2S6cADGJ9ddjFo6wKrabAH4skBEL2IOM8uOYY5EHM733CV7iJDBxF-3lA_fULrbQ=@protonmail.ch>
 <CAKTCJyesx8uVqJ7pydctH0Vc4GnzfSm+mk-ZFbCtG+BPKe-uxQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20161016155909.0000661d.legionara@openmailbox.org>

Openmailbox didn't flag this as spam.

From the message source: 

> X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=5.0
> tests=HTML_MESSAGE,SPF_HELO_PASS,
> SPF_PASS,T_DKIM_INVALID,T_HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,URIBL_BLOCKED
> autolearn=no autolearn_force=no version=3.4.0

This email scores 0.0 on openmailbox.org's SpamAssassin, including
T_HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS, which would explain the "improperly
forwarded" bit.

Can you forward the bounce mail/error message you got from Protonmail
in its entirety, or better yet, get your hands on the SMTP log? I
commend you on trying to get away from Gmail. One easy step you can
take to protect your privacy is to delete mails older than 6 months
from the server. I use POP3 and my client automatically deletes mails
after a week from the server. PGP is a great way to authenticate and
encrypt mails, as well.

http://www.businessinsider.com/when-can-the-government-read-your-email-2013-6?IR=T

On Sun, 9 Oct 2016 09:42:06 +0200
Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:

> Replying from Gmail to make sure everyone sees this. I am subscribed
> to the list also with my Protonmail account, but Gmail puts my
> messages to the list, sent from Protonmail, in spam. The error message
> is:
> 
> Why is this message in Spam? It has a from address in protonmail.ch
> but has failed protonmail.ch's required tests for authentication.
> Learn more
> 
> Sent bug report to Protonmail. Doesn't happen with direct messages,
> only with messages to this mailing list. I will chech if it happens
> with other mailing lists as well. If not, perhaps this could be due to
> admin settings in this list?
> 
> This is important because I'm trying to switch from Gmail to
> Protonmail, and I recommend that you do the same. See here for why.
> https://protonmail.com/blog/yahoo-us-intelligence/
> 
> On Sun, Oct 9, 2016 at 9:24 AM, Giulio Prisco
> <giulioprisco at protonmail.ch> wrote:
> > Test - A couple of months ago messages to the list from Protonmail
> > were put in spam by Gmail. Do you (both Gmail and non-Gmail users)
> > see this message?
> >
> > --
> > Giulio Prisco
> > http://giulioprisco.com/
> > giulioprisco at protonmail.ch
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > extropy-chat mailing list
> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> >  
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

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From cryptaxe at gmail.com  Sun Oct 16 20:43:43 2016
From: cryptaxe at gmail.com (CryptAxe)
Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2016 13:43:43 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Testing - do you see this message?
In-Reply-To: <VXUSfbHkZhy3hVFHEui3gKV7EAmdaP5G0HO-3kd86Au2S6cADGJ9ddjFo6wKrabAH4skBEL2IOM8uOYY5EHM733CV7iJDBxF-3lA_fULrbQ=@protonmail.ch>
References: <VXUSfbHkZhy3hVFHEui3gKV7EAmdaP5G0HO-3kd86Au2S6cADGJ9ddjFo6wKrabAH4skBEL2IOM8uOYY5EHM733CV7iJDBxF-3lA_fULrbQ=@protonmail.ch>
Message-ID: <CAF5CFkgd6adyk48uTT447n0DW01CqM-hB95MP4UaHYdvc0==Xw@mail.gmail.com>

Marked as spam by my Gmail

On Oct 9, 2016 12:26 AM, "Giulio Prisco" <giulioprisco at protonmail.ch> wrote:

> Test - A couple of months ago messages to the list from Protonmail were
> put in spam by Gmail. Do you (both Gmail and non-Gmail users) see this
> message?
>
> --
> Giulio Prisco
> http://giulioprisco.com/
> giulioprisco at protonmail.ch
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From anders at aleph.se  Sun Oct 16 23:31:08 2016
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2016 00:31:08 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Testing - do you see this message?
In-Reply-To: <CAF5CFkgd6adyk48uTT447n0DW01CqM-hB95MP4UaHYdvc0==Xw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <VXUSfbHkZhy3hVFHEui3gKV7EAmdaP5G0HO-3kd86Au2S6cADGJ9ddjFo6wKrabAH4skBEL2IOM8uOYY5EHM733CV7iJDBxF-3lA_fULrbQ=@protonmail.ch>
 <CAF5CFkgd6adyk48uTT447n0DW01CqM-hB95MP4UaHYdvc0==Xw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5925cacc-5135-bf63-3c02-cca24672f8e6@aleph.se>

I saw it. The irony is that the message just before it in my inbox was 
phishing claiming my messages were caught as spam (just click here on 
this ransomware link to fix it...)

On 2016-10-16 21:43, CryptAxe wrote:
>
> Marked as spam by my Gmail
>
>
> On Oct 9, 2016 12:26 AM, "Giulio Prisco" <giulioprisco at protonmail.ch 
> <mailto:giulioprisco at protonmail.ch>> wrote:
>
>     Test - A couple of months ago messages to the list from Protonmail
>     were put in spam by Gmail. Do you (both Gmail and non-Gmail users)
>     see this message?
>
>     --
>     Giulio Prisco
>     http://giulioprisco.com/
>     giulioprisco at protonmail.ch <mailto:giulioprisco at protonmail.ch>
>
>
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     extropy-chat mailing list
>     extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
>     http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


-- 
Dr Anders Sandberg
Future of Humanity Institute
Oxford Martin School
Oxford University

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From anders at aleph.se  Mon Oct 17 21:00:35 2016
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders)
Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2016 22:00:35 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Robin in the Chronicle of Higher Education
Message-ID: <07cf0a84-58db-15a5-83e4-9aa819b6ca9d@aleph.se>

Is this economist too far ahead of his time?
http://www.chronicle.com/article/Is-This-Economist-Too-Far/238050
I think we might have a slightly different response from most.

I quite like the article, because it points at the wider intellectual 
meta-issues. Far too many journalists just get obsessed with the ems. 
How to do interdisciplinary, groundbreaking or just maximally useful 
research is an interesting challenge.

(Incidentally, I like how Robin's em cities show up quietly in 
Rajaniemi's "His master's voice": 
http://redstonesciencefiction.com/2010/09/his-masters-voice/ )

-- 
Dr Anders Sandberg
Future of Humanity Institute
Oxford Martin School
Oxford University



From foozler83 at gmail.com  Mon Oct 17 21:40:55 2016
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2016 16:40:55 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Robin in the Chronicle of Higher Education
In-Reply-To: <07cf0a84-58db-15a5-83e4-9aa819b6ca9d@aleph.se>
References: <07cf0a84-58db-15a5-83e4-9aa819b6ca9d@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEaD7iNe5cXoXYpmP-FiTFQ_N_Y=wVjPoXtD0kW7QVt9tw@mail.gmail.com>

I quite like the article, because it points at the wider intellectual
meta-issues. Far too many journalists just get obsessed with the ems. How
to do interdisciplinary, groundbreaking or just maximally useful research
is an interesting challenge.  anders

It reminds me of the metaphor about the knight riding out of the castle and
going in 17 different directions at once.  Clearly in the genius league, he
seems interested in everything but quick to abandon it and go to something
else - lack of focus, that is.  Yet, I think we should fund people like
this and not count their class numbers or publications.  Just give them
time to think.

bullshit computation:  number of different areas in which publication has
been done by a person, divided by number of publications, the smaller the
better

For us at lower levels of economics, I really enjoyed Thaler's book
Misbehaving, about displacing the rational model the economics has held for
so long.  Behavioral economics - the time is right.  This guy is a pioneer
who worked with Kahneman and Tversky.  A likely Nobel candidate.  Same who
did Nudge.

bill w

On Mon, Oct 17, 2016 at 4:00 PM, Anders <anders at aleph.se> wrote:

> Is this economist too far ahead of his time?
> http://www.chronicle.com/article/Is-This-Economist-Too-Far/238050
> I think we might have a slightly different response from most.
>
> I quite like the article, because it points at the wider intellectual
> meta-issues. Far too many journalists just get obsessed with the ems. How
> to do interdisciplinary, groundbreaking or just maximally useful research
> is an interesting challenge.
>
> (Incidentally, I like how Robin's em cities show up quietly in Rajaniemi's
> "His master's voice": http://redstonesciencefiction.
> com/2010/09/his-masters-voice/ )
>
> --
> Dr Anders Sandberg
> Future of Humanity Institute
> Oxford Martin School
> Oxford University
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From dsa at unsa.edu.ar  Tue Oct 18 13:46:46 2016
From: dsa at unsa.edu.ar (Diego Saravia)
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2016 10:46:46 -0300
Subject: [ExI] 234 stars with "inteligent" laser pulses
Message-ID: <CAE9KQ2GN2cTzo4tWY4suSRncF2nk6dVoxzjCLLZqjDaBh2CJMA@mail.gmail.com>

https://arxiv.org/abs/1610.03031

-- 
Diego Saravia
Diego.Saravia at gmail.com
NO FUNCIONA->dsa at unsa.edu.ar
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From spike66 at att.net  Tue Oct 18 14:24:54 2016
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2016 07:24:54 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Here comes a new challenger
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv3AuyprsBxZM5f=WfM+u_zmOAE5L1sqqAMSWJT=_Uj7jQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALAdGNRV-M+C572fERUNFefLtg=EG1OtJ-ZQtv3DGSbZ9nixWA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQgKSQPx-J2_7Op2pNA1nP=PEXwuyJfVwZC9x8w_OAxEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNS=8zwfgTFnWnKuB1spD6SE+Kkt0RRGAiLnoGmpYkp6Gg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNSjjScGGBcv6TqY_NH8pRa1WwTax34O4R1kSGPgL6+rjw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv3AuyprsBxZM5f=WfM+u_zmOAE5L1sqqAMSWJT=_Uj7jQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <005501d2294b$66203b00$3260b100$@att.net>

>?on November 8 we will only be forced to play a traditional game of Russian Roulette with one bullet in the cylinder ? John K Clark

 

 

John I am refraining from posting on the topic until we learn whether Shawn Lucas Disease is compatible with cryonics.

 

spike

 

 ?

 

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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Tue Oct 18 17:28:00 2016
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2016 13:28:00 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Here comes a new challenger
In-Reply-To: <005501d2294b$66203b00$3260b100$@att.net>
References: <CALAdGNRV-M+C572fERUNFefLtg=EG1OtJ-ZQtv3DGSbZ9nixWA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQgKSQPx-J2_7Op2pNA1nP=PEXwuyJfVwZC9x8w_OAxEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNS=8zwfgTFnWnKuB1spD6SE+Kkt0RRGAiLnoGmpYkp6Gg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNSjjScGGBcv6TqY_NH8pRa1WwTax34O4R1kSGPgL6+rjw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv3AuyprsBxZM5f=WfM+u_zmOAE5L1sqqAMSWJT=_Uj7jQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <005501d2294b$66203b00$3260b100$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv1AFvLB+coFyPkjcD9NrmzB5WWW_7Uga3ZgaXW5WtM-2A@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 10:24 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

*>?> ??*on November 8 we will only be forced to play a traditional game of
>> Russian Roulette with one bullet in the cylinder ? John K Clark
>
>
> ?> ?
>> John I am refraining from posting on the topic until we learn whether
>> Shawn Lucas Disease is compatible with cryonics.
>
>
?
I really hope that in tomorrow's debate Trump goes into full tinfoil hat
black helicopter mode so in addition
?to ?
ranting about the election being rigged
?and ?
stolen from him (it's well known that the system is stacked against white
men who inherit a lot of money)
?he ?
starts spinning conspiracy theories about Hillary murdering
? ?
Shawn Lucas
? ?
and
? ?
Vince Foster. He's already done it on Twitter but I want Trump to do it in
the debate for all the world to see that this is the sort of man who's
asking for your vote, this is the sort of man who wants to control the
world's most powerful nuclear arsenal.
?

 John K Clark
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From spike66 at att.net  Tue Oct 18 17:47:08 2016
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2016 10:47:08 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Here comes a new challenger
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv1AFvLB+coFyPkjcD9NrmzB5WWW_7Uga3ZgaXW5WtM-2A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALAdGNRV-M+C572fERUNFefLtg=EG1OtJ-ZQtv3DGSbZ9nixWA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQgKSQPx-J2_7Op2pNA1nP=PEXwuyJfVwZC9x8w_OAxEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNS=8zwfgTFnWnKuB1spD6SE+Kkt0RRGAiLnoGmpYkp6Gg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNSjjScGGBcv6TqY_NH8pRa1WwTax34O4R1kSGPgL6+rjw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv3AuyprsBxZM5f=WfM+u_zmOAE5L1sqqAMSWJT=_Uj7jQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <005501d2294b$66203b00$3260b100$@att.net>
 <CAJPayv1AFvLB+coFyPkjcD9NrmzB5WWW_7Uga3ZgaXW5WtM-2A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <002a01d22967$a61351e0$f239f5a0$@att.net>

 

 

From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of John Clark
?

 

>?starts spinning conspiracy theories about Hillary murdering Shawn Lucas?John K Clark

 

 

Wait, what?  Shawn Lucas was murdered now?  How?

 

spike

 

 

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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Tue Oct 18 17:11:55 2016
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2016 13:11:55 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Here comes a new challenger
In-Reply-To: <005501d2294b$66203b00$3260b100$@att.net>
References: <CALAdGNRV-M+C572fERUNFefLtg=EG1OtJ-ZQtv3DGSbZ9nixWA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQgKSQPx-J2_7Op2pNA1nP=PEXwuyJfVwZC9x8w_OAxEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNS=8zwfgTFnWnKuB1spD6SE+Kkt0RRGAiLnoGmpYkp6Gg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNSjjScGGBcv6TqY_NH8pRa1WwTax34O4R1kSGPgL6+rjw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv3AuyprsBxZM5f=WfM+u_zmOAE5L1sqqAMSWJT=_Uj7jQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <005501d2294b$66203b00$3260b100$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv2KeiqUFtCtMzRqJmZHMJVRbmNTmSy8=CPDiXr2i7m9OA@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 10:24 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

*>?> ??*on November 8 we will only be forced to play a traditional game of
>> Russian Roulette with one bullet in the cylinder ? John K Clark
>
>
> ?> ?
>> John I am refraining from posting on the topic until we learn whether
>> Shawn Lucas Disease is compatible with cryonics.
>
>
?
I really hope that in tomorrow's debate Trump goes into full tinfoil hat
black helicopter mode so in addition
?to ?
ranting about the election being rigged
?and ?
stolen from him (it's well known that the system is stacked against white
men who inherit a lot of money)
?he ?
starts spinning conspiracy theories about Hillary murdering
? ?
Shawn Lucas
? ?
and
? ?
Vince Foster. He's already done it on Twitter but I want Trump to do it in
the debate for all the world to see that this is the sort of man who's
asking for your vote, this is the sort of man who wants to control the
world's most powerful nuclear arsenal.
?

 John K Clark
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From anders at aleph.se  Tue Oct 18 15:10:43 2016
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders)
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2016 16:10:43 +0100
Subject: [ExI] 234 stars with "inteligent" laser pulses
In-Reply-To: <CAE9KQ2GN2cTzo4tWY4suSRncF2nk6dVoxzjCLLZqjDaBh2CJMA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAE9KQ2GN2cTzo4tWY4suSRncF2nk6dVoxzjCLLZqjDaBh2CJMA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <022b64de-3159-bc8a-919e-d432b29141da@aleph.se>

I am somewhat skeptical of this; it relies on assuming all aliens use 
the same frequency and intensity pulse modulation at a very high rate.


On 2016-10-18 14:46, Diego Saravia wrote:
> https://arxiv.org/abs/1610.03031
>
> -- 
> Diego Saravia
> Diego.Saravia at gmail.com <mailto:Diego.Saravia at gmail.com>
> NO FUNCIONA->dsa at unsa.edu.ar <mailto:dsa at unsa.edu.ar>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

-- 
Dr Anders Sandberg
Future of Humanity Institute
Oxford Martin School
Oxford University

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From giulio at gmail.com  Wed Oct 19 14:49:47 2016
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2016 16:49:47 +0200
Subject: [ExI] 234 stars with "inteligent" laser pulses
In-Reply-To: <022b64de-3159-bc8a-919e-d432b29141da@aleph.se>
References: <CAE9KQ2GN2cTzo4tWY4suSRncF2nk6dVoxzjCLLZqjDaBh2CJMA@mail.gmail.com>
 <022b64de-3159-bc8a-919e-d432b29141da@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <CAKTCJye-LTQvBZkojX3F2qh9b4Mo6OV_2VERoJ--by=imBTu-A@mail.gmail.com>

My review:

Astronomers Intrigued by ?Probable? Alien Signals in Stellar Spectra
https://hacked.com/astronomers-intrigued-by-probable-alien-signals-in-stellar-spectra/

On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 5:10 PM, Anders <anders at aleph.se> wrote:
> I am somewhat skeptical of this; it relies on assuming all aliens use the
> same frequency and intensity pulse modulation at a very high rate.
>
>
> On 2016-10-18 14:46, Diego Saravia wrote:
>
> https://arxiv.org/abs/1610.03031
>
> --
> Diego Saravia
> Diego.Saravia at gmail.com
> NO FUNCIONA->dsa at unsa.edu.ar
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
> --
> Dr Anders Sandberg
> Future of Humanity Institute
> Oxford Martin School
> Oxford University
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>



From aleksei at iki.fi  Wed Oct 19 15:33:01 2016
From: aleksei at iki.fi (Aleksei Riikonen)
Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2016 18:33:01 +0300
Subject: [ExI] 234 stars with "inteligent" laser pulses
In-Reply-To: <022b64de-3159-bc8a-919e-d432b29141da@aleph.se>
References: <CAE9KQ2GN2cTzo4tWY4suSRncF2nk6dVoxzjCLLZqjDaBh2CJMA@mail.gmail.com>
 <022b64de-3159-bc8a-919e-d432b29141da@aleph.se>
Message-ID: <CAF=HMEBxh+wD5yrbSPMyQpvocrOMyFEvhvpqYGTDVYAo=V6icQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 6:10 PM, Anders <anders at aleph.se> wrote:
> I am somewhat skeptical of this; it relies on assuming all aliens use the
> same frequency and intensity pulse modulation at a very high rate.

If the reason is to communicate to civilizations like us (as the
authors include in their ETI hypothesis), standardizing across
different transmitters would be *expected*.

I wouldn't expect us to detect alien communication if it wasn't meant
to be detected by us, anyway.

-- 
Aleksei Riikonen - http://www.iki.fi/aleksei


From steinberg.will at gmail.com  Wed Oct 19 16:18:31 2016
From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg)
Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2016 12:18:31 -0400
Subject: [ExI] 234 stars with "inteligent" laser pulses
In-Reply-To: <CAF=HMEBxh+wD5yrbSPMyQpvocrOMyFEvhvpqYGTDVYAo=V6icQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAE9KQ2GN2cTzo4tWY4suSRncF2nk6dVoxzjCLLZqjDaBh2CJMA@mail.gmail.com>
 <022b64de-3159-bc8a-919e-d432b29141da@aleph.se>
 <CAF=HMEBxh+wD5yrbSPMyQpvocrOMyFEvhvpqYGTDVYAo=V6icQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKrqSyEODb-uRe0W04LPAi-yfhOs2+-wcKewW8uLD3hCKdMVAg@mail.gmail.com>

I think that if the pulses are indeed from ETI, humans probably don't have
the current capacity to guess what their real cause/purpose is.  Trying to
fit ET behavior to contemporary human knowledge is bound to be wrong.
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From pharos at gmail.com  Wed Oct 19 18:00:25 2016
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2016 19:00:25 +0100
Subject: [ExI] 234 stars with "inteligent" laser pulses
In-Reply-To: <CAKrqSyEODb-uRe0W04LPAi-yfhOs2+-wcKewW8uLD3hCKdMVAg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAE9KQ2GN2cTzo4tWY4suSRncF2nk6dVoxzjCLLZqjDaBh2CJMA@mail.gmail.com>
 <022b64de-3159-bc8a-919e-d432b29141da@aleph.se>
 <CAF=HMEBxh+wD5yrbSPMyQpvocrOMyFEvhvpqYGTDVYAo=V6icQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyEODb-uRe0W04LPAi-yfhOs2+-wcKewW8uLD3hCKdMVAg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armjb4o33AnXgwK1oa+WiGDFrt7+D6BqULLTZsJdTgynXdw@mail.gmail.com>

On 19 October 2016 at 17:18, Will Steinberg  wrote:
> I think that if the pulses are indeed from ETI, humans probably don't have
> the current capacity to guess what their real cause/purpose is.  Trying to
> fit ET behavior to contemporary human knowledge is bound to be wrong.
>

If the ET message had a 'Respond' button that claimed it would send a
copy of the Encyclopedia Galactica, should we click it?


BillK


From atymes at gmail.com  Wed Oct 19 18:08:13 2016
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2016 11:08:13 -0700
Subject: [ExI] 234 stars with "inteligent" laser pulses
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armjb4o33AnXgwK1oa+WiGDFrt7+D6BqULLTZsJdTgynXdw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAE9KQ2GN2cTzo4tWY4suSRncF2nk6dVoxzjCLLZqjDaBh2CJMA@mail.gmail.com>
 <022b64de-3159-bc8a-919e-d432b29141da@aleph.se>
 <CAF=HMEBxh+wD5yrbSPMyQpvocrOMyFEvhvpqYGTDVYAo=V6icQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyEODb-uRe0W04LPAi-yfhOs2+-wcKewW8uLD3hCKdMVAg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armjb4o33AnXgwK1oa+WiGDFrt7+D6BqULLTZsJdTgynXdw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNS1dNvXU2_FHM+THx6=POqkG4ERUq4BJmfcB94AdkwACw@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 11:00 AM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:

> On 19 October 2016 at 17:18, Will Steinberg  wrote:
> > I think that if the pulses are indeed from ETI, humans probably don't
> have
> > the current capacity to guess what their real cause/purpose is.  Trying
> to
> > fit ET behavior to contemporary human knowledge is bound to be wrong.
>
> If the ET message had a 'Respond' button that claimed it would send a
> copy of the Encyclopedia Galactica, should we click it?


Sure, so long as you could be certain that whatever received it would treat
it only as data, not executable code.  (Which, unfortunately, is not the
case for most Web browsers - but there are ways to be certain, if the
potential message is important enough.)
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From bmd54321 at gmail.com  Wed Oct 19 19:25:10 2016
From: bmd54321 at gmail.com (Brian Manning Delaney)
Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2016 15:25:10 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Posting to the list
In-Reply-To: <57FFD38D.30002@yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.24.1476376466.601.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <57FFD38D.30002@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3a907469-9c77-8421-06c3-f7713416bcbf@gmail.com>

El 2016-10-13 a las 14:33, Ben escribi?:

> I've long ago learned that it's best to use a text-editor that's
> independent of the vehicle I want to use to transmit my message, then I
> can save it, edit it, and only when I'm ready, copy-and-paste it into
> the relevant system (email, facebook, whatever).

Me too.

I created a file called "Scratch Pad.doc" years ago and leave it open in 
Word, always. If I'm typing a message online or in any email program 
that gets longer than maybe 100 words or so (not worth it if it's just a 
few sentences), I copy what I've written, Alt-TAB over to Scratch 
Pad.doc, paste, and continue typing. Then I run a spell-check and some 
macros I wrote to check for common errors I make. Then I copy it, and 
paste it back in the webform or whatever it was.

Brian



From pharos at gmail.com  Wed Oct 19 20:26:38 2016
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2016 21:26:38 +0100
Subject: [ExI] 234 stars with "inteligent" laser pulses
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNS1dNvXU2_FHM+THx6=POqkG4ERUq4BJmfcB94AdkwACw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAE9KQ2GN2cTzo4tWY4suSRncF2nk6dVoxzjCLLZqjDaBh2CJMA@mail.gmail.com>
 <022b64de-3159-bc8a-919e-d432b29141da@aleph.se>
 <CAF=HMEBxh+wD5yrbSPMyQpvocrOMyFEvhvpqYGTDVYAo=V6icQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyEODb-uRe0W04LPAi-yfhOs2+-wcKewW8uLD3hCKdMVAg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armjb4o33AnXgwK1oa+WiGDFrt7+D6BqULLTZsJdTgynXdw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNS1dNvXU2_FHM+THx6=POqkG4ERUq4BJmfcB94AdkwACw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armh+vF7RN_xXXOuyrypY0to45p5S-TV+5e0SX8SAMTGAqw@mail.gmail.com>

On 19 October 2016 at 19:08, Adrian Tymes  wrote:
> Sure, so long as you could be certain that whatever received it would treat
> it only as data, not executable code.  (Which, unfortunately, is not the
> case for most Web browsers - but there are ways to be certain, if the
> potential message is important enough.)
>


That's a big conditional there. :)  We would have no idea what would
be sent to us.
It would probably be years before a reply came back.  Everybody in the
world would have a dish waiting to receive the expected reward. And
there would always be someone willing to run an executable. I expect
they would attempt various levels of security protection. But
protection against an interstellar ET technology??  I doubt that would
be successful.

And there might be more than a message on the way.

BillK


From foozler83 at gmail.com  Wed Oct 19 20:57:34 2016
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2016 15:57:34 -0500
Subject: [ExI] question for libertarians
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYBfr7uJCjkCu=3=mn28ExC-ts8HejcSd5Hkd2orYz+jQ@mail.gmail.com>

I am getting forgetful, so if this is a rerun, please forgive.  Maybe
newbies haven't seen this yet.

This is from Thaler's work in Nudge:

Suppose you were hired and given an option on joining a pension plan.
Totally your choice.

But if the paperwork is set up so that you have to opt out by checking a
box, far more people will participate than if you make the option to opt in
a box to be checked.  This is libertarian paternalism.  It takes advantage
of the fact that whatever it is, say a new cell phone, people will
generally go with most of the defaults.

Big difference - opt in opt out.  Now the question:  is this unethical
manipulation of your choices?  Thaler calls this libertarian paternalism -
libertarian in the sense that you have full sayso over your choices, and
paternalistic in that you are being nudged to make a choice that will
likely be better for you in the long run. (esp. if soc. secur. goes broke)
 (note that jokers like true contrarians will want to change the default
whether it hurts them or not)

What say?

bill w
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From atymes at gmail.com  Wed Oct 19 21:12:23 2016
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2016 14:12:23 -0700
Subject: [ExI] question for libertarians
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNSyBQ4Vq5dePqgpDv8s9t5U6ZJ53mWygzLYT-+f2pg0PQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYBfr7uJCjkCu=3=mn28ExC-ts8HejcSd5Hkd2orYz+jQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNSyBQ4Vq5dePqgpDv8s9t5U6ZJ53mWygzLYT-+f2pg0PQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNT93znO7gD-r_0_JX2zctDJRGZLAH=-30iyU684QTh8Dg@mail.gmail.com>

On Oct 19, 2016 1:58 PM, "William Flynn Wallace" <foozler83 at gmail.com>
wrote:
> Big difference - opt in opt out.  Now the question:  is this unethical
manipulation of your choices?

Thing is, the program has to default one way or the other.  Either opt in
or opt out will happen.
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From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Wed Oct 19 22:17:28 2016
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2016 15:17:28 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Disturbing the Ionosphere
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB4JB7=6dQnVQY08PLSW8SxGD8Mw+0D0bkTj1Et9GO0Huw@mail.gmail.com>

There are so many loose ends to tie up before a power satellite
project can be proposed.  I wrote this about a year ago trying to find
someone who knows about the ionosphere.  I never got an answer.  Do
any of the people on these list know an ionosphere expert who might at
least express an opinion?

Keith


> Another possible problem has come up, though in truth I don't know if
> it really a problem or not.
>
> To keep the cost for the LEO to GEO leg down, we propose to use
> arcjets with an exhaust velocity of 20-25 km/s.  Here is a recently
> constructed 50 MW arcjet.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Enthalpy_Arc_Heated_Facility
>
> They would be powered by orbiting power plants, using space to space
> microwave transmission, smaller versions of power satellites,
> operating at ~25 GHz to keep the antenna sizes down.
>
> The exhaust velocity is well above Earth escape velocity, _but_ the exhaust is
> ionized to an unknown degree and deep inside the Earth's magnetic
> field--which contains much higher energy particles in the Van Allen
> belts.  If the peak construction rate is 2 TW/year, that takes about a
> million of the 15 ton Skylon payloads.  Of that, about 2 million tons
> is reaction mass (probably hydrogen) for the arcjets, so it is a
> serious mass flow into the magnetosphere, from LEO all the way out to
> GEO.
>
> I have been looking for someone over the past few months who can set
> up a model and see if we have a problem or not.  The electric
> propulsion people, such as those at Ad Astra Rocket Company, tell me
> it is an interesting question that has not been considered as far as
> they know.  At the moment there is no funding available, but I am sure
> there is a paper in it.
>
> If you want to consider working on this (or assigning a graduate
> student) I would be delighted.
>
> If you use Skype, I am hkhenson there, or my phone is 626 264 7560
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Keith Henson
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L5_Society


From bbenzai at yahoo.com  Thu Oct 20 08:31:33 2016
From: bbenzai at yahoo.com (Ben)
Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2016 09:31:33 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Observable Universe contains ten times more galaxies than
 previously thought
In-Reply-To: <mailman.37.1476801582.601.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.37.1476801582.601.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <580880E5.3020105@yahoo.com>

Anders <anders at aleph.se> Observed:
 > Yes, this news is based on a very odd use of the present tense.
 > Astronomers may be fine with considering the "present" as the surface 
of  our past light cone, but most of us prefer to consider the
 > unreachable volumes with the same cosmological time as us as being "now".

Ah, but doesn't that contradict Relativity? I thought one consequence of 
that was that there is no such thing as 'simultaneity', over large 
enough scales. Surely anyone who wants to think about cosmology needs to 
get used to that idea?

Ben Zaiboc


From sparge at gmail.com  Thu Oct 20 11:46:16 2016
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2016 07:46:16 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Posting to the list
In-Reply-To: <3a907469-9c77-8421-06c3-f7713416bcbf@gmail.com>
References: <mailman.24.1476376466.601.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <57FFD38D.30002@yahoo.com> <3a907469-9c77-8421-06c3-f7713416bcbf@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2dhqKPBcMq91W=AxCvyOy6XUmivMDYc938wFDkaRyxRwQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hmm. I've never lost anything in a partially-composed gmail draft.
Everything's saved to the cloud continuously, so I can resume editing on
any device.

-Dave
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From sparge at gmail.com  Thu Oct 20 11:51:54 2016
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2016 07:51:54 -0400
Subject: [ExI] question for libertarians
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNT93znO7gD-r_0_JX2zctDJRGZLAH=-30iyU684QTh8Dg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYBfr7uJCjkCu=3=mn28ExC-ts8HejcSd5Hkd2orYz+jQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNSyBQ4Vq5dePqgpDv8s9t5U6ZJ53mWygzLYT-+f2pg0PQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNT93znO7gD-r_0_JX2zctDJRGZLAH=-30iyU684QTh8Dg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2dHYNZaosdnah2vo4tr=whAsZpeEYazdD539p1TypXpmA@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 5:12 PM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:

> Thing is, the program has to default one way or the other.  Either opt in
> or opt out will happen.


No, it could be pseudo-random.

-Dave
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From lubkin at unreasonable.com  Thu Oct 20 17:01:08 2016
From: lubkin at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin)
Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2016 13:01:08 -0400
Subject: [ExI] question for libertarians
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYBfr7uJCjkCu=3=mn28ExC-ts8HejcSd5Hkd2orYz+jQ@mail.g
 mail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYBfr7uJCjkCu=3=mn28ExC-ts8HejcSd5Hkd2orYz+jQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <201610201734.u9KHYVp9008231@ziaspace.com>

William Flynn Wallace wrote:

>But if the paperwork is set up so that you have 
>to opt out by checking a box, far more people 
>will participate than if you make the option to 
>opt in a box to be checked.  This is libertarian 
>paternalism.  It takes advantage of the fact 
>that whatever it is, say a new cell phone, 
>people will generally go with most of the defaults.
>
>Big difference - opt in opt out.  Now the 
>question:  is this unethical manipulation of 
>your choices?  Thaler calls this libertarian 
>paternalism - libertarian in the sense that you 
>have full sayso over your choices, and 
>paternalistic in that you are being nudged to 
>make a choice that will likely be better for you 
>in the long run. (esp. if soc. secur. goes 
>broke) ? (note that jokers like true contrarians 
>will want to change the default whether it hurts them or not)

If the paperwork doesn't disclose that not 
checking the box will result in signing me up, it 
is arguably both unethical and against a 
libertarian's Non-Aggression Principle.

Hiding this consequence by putting it at the 
other end of a URL, explaining it in bafflegab, 
or presenting it in 6 pt grey bafflegab on a grey 
background, is functionally equivalent to non-disclosure.

But if the paperwork tells me what will happen in 
large, friendly letters I don't see that it's 
either unethical or against the NAP, whether the 
default is beneficial to me or harmful.

I might find it irritating, like prices ending 
with .97 or celebrity endorsements, but 
irritating me isn't inherently unethical.


-- David.




From foozler83 at gmail.com  Thu Oct 20 17:56:46 2016
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2016 12:56:46 -0500
Subject: [ExI] question for libertarians
In-Reply-To: <201610201734.u9KHYVp9008231@ziaspace.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYBfr7uJCjkCu=3=mn28ExC-ts8HejcSd5Hkd2orYz+jQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <201610201734.u9KHYVp9008231@ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZ4E5iSLzL3coWmHGdTROq+g6mfjp-6e=8fhtevuapn1Q@mail.gmail.com>

I might find it irritating, like prices ending with .97 or celebrity
endorsements, but irritating me isn't inherently unethical.
-- David.

Ha!!  If it were, we could ban about 99% of television, esp. those we don't
watch and are forced to pay for.  Thaler appears to be working hard to make
these things palatable to libertarians, which is one reason I am asking
this group.  I'll write Thaler if I get some serious objections.  bill w

On Thu, Oct 20, 2016 at 12:01 PM, David Lubkin <lubkin at unreasonable.com>
wrote:

> William Flynn Wallace wrote:
>
> But if the paperwork is set up so that you have to opt out by checking a
>> box, far more people will participate than if you make the option to opt in
>> a box to be checked.  This is libertarian paternalism.  It takes advantage
>> of the fact that whatever it is, say a new cell phone, people will
>> generally go with most of the defaults.
>>
>> Big difference - opt in opt out.  Now the question:  is this unethical
>> manipulation of your choices?  Thaler calls this libertarian paternalism -
>> libertarian in the sense that you have full sayso over your choices, and
>> paternalistic in that you are being nudged to make a choice that will
>> likely be better for you in the long run. (esp. if soc. secur. goes broke)
>> ? (note that jokers like true contrarians will want to change the default
>> whether it hurts them or not)
>>
>
> If the paperwork doesn't disclose that not checking the box will result in
> signing me up, it is arguably both unethical and against a libertarian's
> Non-Aggression Principle.
>
> Hiding this consequence by putting it at the other end of a URL,
> explaining it in bafflegab, or presenting it in 6 pt grey bafflegab on a
> grey background, is functionally equivalent to non-disclosure.
>
> But if the paperwork tells me what will happen in large, friendly letters
> I don't see that it's either unethical or against the NAP, whether the
> default is beneficial to me or harmful.
>
> I might find it irritating, like prices ending with .97 or celebrity
> endorsements, but irritating me isn't inherently unethical.
>
>
> -- David.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From atymes at gmail.com  Thu Oct 20 18:35:53 2016
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2016 11:35:53 -0700
Subject: [ExI] question for libertarians
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2dHYNZaosdnah2vo4tr=whAsZpeEYazdD539p1TypXpmA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYBfr7uJCjkCu=3=mn28ExC-ts8HejcSd5Hkd2orYz+jQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNSyBQ4Vq5dePqgpDv8s9t5U6ZJ53mWygzLYT-+f2pg0PQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNT93znO7gD-r_0_JX2zctDJRGZLAH=-30iyU684QTh8Dg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2dHYNZaosdnah2vo4tr=whAsZpeEYazdD539p1TypXpmA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNRHN8MY8b036MZfoHddpc5KvLxE96OpkTnygFewn6te5w@mail.gmail.com>

On Oct 20, 2016 4:53 AM, "Dave Sill" <sparge at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 5:12 PM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Thing is, the program has to default one way or the other.  Either opt
in or opt out will happen.
>
> No, it could be pseudo-random.

Any given person's instance would still be one or the other, though.  And
would that not just make two groups that get manipulated, one in one
direction and the other in the other?
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From sparge at gmail.com  Thu Oct 20 19:21:02 2016
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2016 15:21:02 -0400
Subject: [ExI] question for libertarians
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNRHN8MY8b036MZfoHddpc5KvLxE96OpkTnygFewn6te5w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYBfr7uJCjkCu=3=mn28ExC-ts8HejcSd5Hkd2orYz+jQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNSyBQ4Vq5dePqgpDv8s9t5U6ZJ53mWygzLYT-+f2pg0PQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNT93znO7gD-r_0_JX2zctDJRGZLAH=-30iyU684QTh8Dg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2dHYNZaosdnah2vo4tr=whAsZpeEYazdD539p1TypXpmA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRHN8MY8b036MZfoHddpc5KvLxE96OpkTnygFewn6te5w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2dRVZZ79SwhaNM_WvTWv9h=4hV273w6kPgvMDzLwxQNVg@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Oct 20, 2016 at 2:35 PM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Oct 20, 2016 4:53 AM, "Dave Sill" <sparge at gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 5:12 PM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Thing is, the program has to default one way or the other.  Either opt
> in or opt out will happen.
> >
> > No, it could be pseudo-random.
>
> Any given person's instance would still be one or the other, though.  And
> would that not just make two groups that get manipulated, one in one
> direction and the other in the other?
>
Sure, but it's poor manipulation that doesn't favor either choice. If you
really want to avoid the opt-in/opt-out/default business, don't have a
default and require everyone to make a choice:

  I choose:

     Plan Foo ___
     Plan Bar ___

And the order of the choices should be randomized because, no doubt, people
tend to prefer either the first or last choice.

-Dave
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From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Thu Oct 20 20:15:54 2016
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2016 16:15:54 -0400
Subject: [ExI] question for libertarians
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2dRVZZ79SwhaNM_WvTWv9h=4hV273w6kPgvMDzLwxQNVg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYBfr7uJCjkCu=3=mn28ExC-ts8HejcSd5Hkd2orYz+jQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNSyBQ4Vq5dePqgpDv8s9t5U6ZJ53mWygzLYT-+f2pg0PQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNT93znO7gD-r_0_JX2zctDJRGZLAH=-30iyU684QTh8Dg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2dHYNZaosdnah2vo4tr=whAsZpeEYazdD539p1TypXpmA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRHN8MY8b036MZfoHddpc5KvLxE96OpkTnygFewn6te5w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2dRVZZ79SwhaNM_WvTWv9h=4hV273w6kPgvMDzLwxQNVg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAAc1gFgUVjny8Jca2zu5MYpnPpXNR_XOi-8Wca18jA3ws=4M+w@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Oct 20, 2016 at 3:21 PM, Dave Sill <sparge at gmail.com> wrote:

>
> Sure, but it's poor manipulation that doesn't favor either choice. If you
> really want to avoid the opt-in/opt-out/default business, don't have a
> default and require everyone to make a choice:
>
>   I choose:
>
>      Plan Foo ___
>      Plan Bar ___
>
> And the order of the choices should be randomized because, no doubt,
> people tend to prefer either the first or last choice.
>
> ### What happens if the person does not check either option? A form of
default, too.

Rafal
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Thu Oct 20 20:39:54 2016
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2016 16:39:54 -0400
Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Nobody_can_say_we_weren=E2=80=99t_warned?=
Message-ID: <CAJPayv0J3J6dS0ep23w_+S1jW+SqDtSrm1p5D4SS8fshvZ=1sQ@mail.gmail.com>

If Donald Trump won?t respect the results of the election now when he?s
just a private citizen what will we get in 4 years when President Trump
doesn?t like the outcome of his reelection bid and he?s got the entire US
military behind him led by generals friendly to him that he?s been
promoting since the day he took office? Yesterday Donald was kind enough to
tell us exactly what we?ll get, a President For Life, also known as a
dictator.

Still want to vote for Gary (What is Aleppo?) Johnson?

? ?
John K Clark
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From interzone at gmail.com  Thu Oct 20 21:06:02 2016
From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio)
Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2016 17:06:02 -0400
Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Nobody_can_say_we_weren=E2=80=99t_warned?=
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv0J3J6dS0ep23w_+S1jW+SqDtSrm1p5D4SS8fshvZ=1sQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv0J3J6dS0ep23w_+S1jW+SqDtSrm1p5D4SS8fshvZ=1sQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJrqPH_uAnxdOtOKqgyQS-sMSZKbsNH8LW=P2GWOBJc5sJq9Dg@mail.gmail.com>

John,

If HRC wins on Nov 8, are we going to be spared any additional political
rants?

If the answer is yes, it's ALMOST enough for me to wish for such a terrible
outcome....

On Oct 20, 2016 4:40 PM, "John Clark" <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

> If Donald Trump won?t respect the results of the election now when he?s
> just a private citizen what will we get in 4 years when President Trump
> doesn?t like the outcome of his reelection bid and he?s got the entire US
> military behind him led by generals friendly to him that he?s been
> promoting since the day he took office? Yesterday Donald was kind enough to
> tell us exactly what we?ll get, a President For Life, also known as a
> dictator.
>
> Still want to vote for Gary (What is Aleppo?) Johnson?
>
> ? ?
> John K Clark
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From spike66 at att.net  Thu Oct 20 21:29:28 2016
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2016 14:29:28 -0700
Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Nobody_can_say_we_weren=E2=80=99t_warned?=
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv0J3J6dS0ep23w_+S1jW+SqDtSrm1p5D4SS8fshvZ=1sQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv0J3J6dS0ep23w_+S1jW+SqDtSrm1p5D4SS8fshvZ=1sQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00a601d22b19$0a4a1650$1ede42f0$@att.net>

 

 

>? On Behalf Of John Clark
Subject: [ExI] Nobody can say we weren?t warned

 

>? Yesterday Donald was kind enough to tell us exactly what we?ll get, a President For Life, also known as a dictator. 

 

>?Still want to vote for Gary (What is Aleppo?) Johnson?  ?John K Clark

 

 

 

 

Ja!  Johnson is unlikely to lead the US to war for a place he never heard of.  

 

John, that was simple.

 

Hear the footsteps, now more than ever.

 

spike

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From atymes at gmail.com  Thu Oct 20 21:44:51 2016
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2016 14:44:51 -0700
Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Nobody_can_say_we_weren=E2=80=99t_warned?=
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv0J3J6dS0ep23w_+S1jW+SqDtSrm1p5D4SS8fshvZ=1sQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv0J3J6dS0ep23w_+S1jW+SqDtSrm1p5D4SS8fshvZ=1sQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNReghOA+7o23_pez=BugKAefEdUZr60XVh9E5T-2vhy5Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Oct 20, 2016 1:40 PM, "John Clark" <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:
> Still want to vote for Gary (What is Aleppo?) Johnson?

In a state where the odds of even one elector not going to Hillary are
dramatically lower than the odds that President Trump would not launch at
least one nuclear weapon within his first four years?  Already did (by
mail), with a clean conscience.
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Fri Oct 21 00:33:20 2016
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2016 20:33:20 -0400
Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Nobody_can_say_we_weren=E2=80=99t_warned?=
In-Reply-To: <CAJrqPH_uAnxdOtOKqgyQS-sMSZKbsNH8LW=P2GWOBJc5sJq9Dg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv0J3J6dS0ep23w_+S1jW+SqDtSrm1p5D4SS8fshvZ=1sQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJrqPH_uAnxdOtOKqgyQS-sMSZKbsNH8LW=P2GWOBJc5sJq9Dg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv1xCcuSiwgdLaNHV-jLRgTpGr3m76d-1WyWq4wMS-w6mA@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Oct 20, 2016 at 5:06 PM, Dylan Distasio <interzone at gmail.com> wrote:

> ?> ?
> John, If HRC wins on Nov 8, are we going to be spared any additional
> political rants?
>
>
?Rants? I was just extrapolating what would happen if Donald does the same
thing in 4 years that he's doing now, but never mind that, you tell me
what you think is going to happen in 4 years on election day if the
reelection of President
Trump ?doesn't end up going the way he wants. Do you expect to see any
tanks on the streets? I do.

 John K Clark





>
> On Oct 20, 2016 4:40 PM, "John Clark" <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> If Donald Trump won?t respect the results of the election now when he?s
>> just a private citizen what will we get in 4 years when President Trump
>> doesn?t like the outcome of his reelection bid and he?s got the entire US
>> military behind him led by generals friendly to him that he?s been
>> promoting since the day he took office? Yesterday Donald was kind enough to
>> tell us exactly what we?ll get, a President For Life, also known as a
>> dictator.
>>
>> Still want to vote for Gary (What is Aleppo?) Johnson?
>>
>> ? ?
>> John K Clark
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From anders at aleph.se  Thu Oct 20 20:43:49 2016
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders)
Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2016 21:43:49 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Observable Universe contains ten times more galaxies than
 previously thought
In-Reply-To: <580880E5.3020105@yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.37.1476801582.601.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <580880E5.3020105@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1aeabd4c-b629-d814-6609-f3782ca368f5@aleph.se>

On 2016-10-20 09:31, Ben wrote:
> Anders <anders at aleph.se> Observed:
> > Yes, this news is based on a very odd use of the present tense.
> > Astronomers may be fine with considering the "present" as the 
> surface of  our past light cone, but most of us prefer to consider the
> > unreachable volumes with the same cosmological time as us as being 
> "now".
>
> Ah, but doesn't that contradict Relativity? I thought one consequence 
> of that was that there is no such thing as 'simultaneity', over large 
> enough scales. Surely anyone who wants to think about cosmology needs 
> to get used to that idea?

Cosmologists are totally fine with a lot of temporal coordinate systems. 
Cosmological time and co-moving time are pretty common ones, and they 
make it possible to talk about "now" in regions outside our light cone:
https://arxiv.org/pdf/1304.3823v1.pdf
Moving observers would see a different simultaneity, but since matter in 
the universe are roughly static relative to co-moving space coordinates 
this kind of simultaneity makes sense.




-- 
Dr Anders Sandberg
Future of Humanity Institute
Oxford Martin School
Oxford University



From spike66 at att.net  Fri Oct 21 03:26:28 2016
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2016 20:26:28 -0700
Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Nobody_can_say_we_weren=E2=80=99t_warned?=
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv1xCcuSiwgdLaNHV-jLRgTpGr3m76d-1WyWq4wMS-w6mA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv0J3J6dS0ep23w_+S1jW+SqDtSrm1p5D4SS8fshvZ=1sQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJrqPH_uAnxdOtOKqgyQS-sMSZKbsNH8LW=P2GWOBJc5sJq9Dg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1xCcuSiwgdLaNHV-jLRgTpGr3m76d-1WyWq4wMS-w6mA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00a301d22b4a$e93a1dc0$bbae5940$@att.net>

 

 

> On Behalf Of John Clark



>?what you think is going to happen in 4 years on election day if the reelection of President 

Trump ?doesn't end up going the way he wants. Do you expect to see any tanks on the streets? I do? John K Clark

 

 

John, this is a grand opportunity for congress to demonstrate that a president is not a king.  The supreme court had to do that with Andrew Jackson, to demonstrate he did not have the army.  Trump or Clinton will not have the army either, if he or she issues an illegal order.

 

The army is filled with good honest law-abiding people.  If given an illegal order, I trust them to refuse.  The executive branch, not so much.  The chances of the next president being impeached and convicted are higher than any we have enjoyed in recent times.  May it be so.

 

spike  

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From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Fri Oct 21 04:05:27 2016
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2016 00:05:27 -0400
Subject: [ExI] The Unsong
Message-ID: <CAAc1gFg0fWfcm+xbOB3fxMZ6O16dqTkS6HgFDj+9foYnwLnGBA@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Oct 20, 2016 at 4:43 PM, Anders <anders at aleph.se> wrote:
>
>
> Cosmologists are totally fine with a lot of temporal coordinate systems.
> Cosmological time and co-moving time are pretty common ones, and they make
> it possible to talk about "now" in regions outside our light cone:
> https://arxiv.org/pdf/1304.3823v1.pdf
> Moving observers would see a different simultaneity, but since matter in
> the universe are roughly static relative to co-moving space coordinates
> this kind of simultaneity makes sense.
>
>
### And Now For Something Completely Different - I just noticed you are
reading and commenting on the Unsong!

A most uproariously complex and multi-level intellectually entertaining
prose, shading into poetry, isn't it? And morally uplifting to boot!

What amazes me is that Scott (or whatever his name is), while being a good
atheist, exhibits such a nuanced command of the holy books. A true
Renaissance intellect who engages SJWs in ruthless combat.

Extropians, if you haven't read the Unsong, do it now.

Rafa?
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From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Fri Oct 21 04:08:21 2016
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2016 00:08:21 -0400
Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Nobody_can_say_we_weren=E2=80=99t_warned?=
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv1xCcuSiwgdLaNHV-jLRgTpGr3m76d-1WyWq4wMS-w6mA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv0J3J6dS0ep23w_+S1jW+SqDtSrm1p5D4SS8fshvZ=1sQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJrqPH_uAnxdOtOKqgyQS-sMSZKbsNH8LW=P2GWOBJc5sJq9Dg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1xCcuSiwgdLaNHV-jLRgTpGr3m76d-1WyWq4wMS-w6mA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAAc1gFg6K+4n9QLDwRKHFVOSqO42RTdJELGJPWqyo5xAmvn1cQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Oct 20, 2016 at 8:33 PM, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

>
> On Thu, Oct 20, 2016 at 5:06 PM, Dylan Distasio <interzone at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> ?> ?
>> John, If HRC wins on Nov 8, are we going to be spared any additional
>> political rants?
>>
>>
> ?Rants?
>

### Yes. Jeez, let's just get it over with on November whatever it is, and
go back to normal programming.

 Rafa?
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Fri Oct 21 05:24:07 2016
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2016 01:24:07 -0400
Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Nobody_can_say_we_weren=E2=80=99t_warned?=
In-Reply-To: <00a301d22b4a$e93a1dc0$bbae5940$@att.net>
References: <CAJPayv0J3J6dS0ep23w_+S1jW+SqDtSrm1p5D4SS8fshvZ=1sQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJrqPH_uAnxdOtOKqgyQS-sMSZKbsNH8LW=P2GWOBJc5sJq9Dg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1xCcuSiwgdLaNHV-jLRgTpGr3m76d-1WyWq4wMS-w6mA@mail.gmail.com>
 <00a301d22b4a$e93a1dc0$bbae5940$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv24vuKOc3+H4eq9jp2EXaj-GHRuCGyYbnteOEfNiJCxeQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Oct 20, 2016 at 11:26 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:


> John, this is a grand opportunity for congress to demonstrate that a
> president is not a king.


?
I know that a president is not a king
? and you do too?
, but Trump doesn't know that and neither does the Republican controlled
congress; neither Paul Ryan
? nor ?
Mitch McConnell
? today criticized ?Trump's horrifying comments about not respecting the
election results.

?> ?
> The army is filled with good honest law-abiding people.
>
>
?They are now, ?
but ?Trump has made it clear it will be a very different Army after 4 years
of a Trump administration. Trump said:


*"Under the leadership of Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton, I think the
generals have been reduced to rubble. They have been reduced to a point
where it?s embarrassing to our country.?*

?We somebody said today's Generals ?would not obey orders to torture people
and murder their children Trump said  when he became president:


*?"they?d probably be different generals, to be honest with you."*

?And today Donald told us clear as day what his intentions are, he will go
along with the peaceful transfer of power on January 20 2017 ONLY if the
power is transfer to him, and the first thing he will do when he gets the
power is put his political opponent in prison just like they do in banana
republics. And this wasn't the first time he warned us, in 2012 just 20
minutes after the networks declared that  Obama had won the election Trump
said we needed a revolution:

*"He? ?[Obama]? ?lost the popular vote by a lot*
*? *
and won the election
?."

?N
ot that it matters but actually Obama won the popular vote as well as the
Electoral vote
?, just another Trump lie.?

?He continues:?

?"
*The phoney electoral college made a laughing stock out of our nation. The
loser one!? ?We should have a revolution in this country!? ?We can't let
this happen. We should march on Washington and stop this travesty. Our
nation is totally divided!? ?Lets fight like hell and stop this great and
disgusting injustice! The world is laughing at us. More votes equals a loss
... revolution! This election is a total sham and a travesty. We are not a
democracy! Our country is now in serious and unprecedented trouble ... like
never before. The electoral college is a disaster for a democracy.*
*?*"?


?So I ask you Spike, what do you think will happen 4 years from now
when President Trump discovers on election day that his reelection isn't
going the way he wants? ?


?John K Clark?






>
>
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From spike66 at att.net  Fri Oct 21 06:07:38 2016
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2016 23:07:38 -0700
Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Nobody_can_say_we_weren=E2=80=99t_warned?=
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv24vuKOc3+H4eq9jp2EXaj-GHRuCGyYbnteOEfNiJCxeQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv0J3J6dS0ep23w_+S1jW+SqDtSrm1p5D4SS8fshvZ=1sQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJrqPH_uAnxdOtOKqgyQS-sMSZKbsNH8LW=P2GWOBJc5sJq9Dg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1xCcuSiwgdLaNHV-jLRgTpGr3m76d-1WyWq4wMS-w6mA@mail.gmail.com>
 <00a301d22b4a$e93a1dc0$bbae5940$@att.net>
 <CAJPayv24vuKOc3+H4eq9jp2EXaj-GHRuCGyYbnteOEfNiJCxeQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <003901d22b61$6d6d08d0$48471a70$@att.net>

 

 

>? On Behalf Of John Clark



 

?>?So I ask you Spike, what do you think will happen 4 years from now when President Trump discovers on election day that his reelection isn't going the way he wants? ?John K Clark?

 

 

The chief justice swears in the winner, regardless of what the former president thinks of the deal.  The court is the seat of power which has final say over that matter.  It was set up that way for a reason.  If the president starts grabbing power, congress steps in and relieves the president of duty, as we saw unfolding in 1974.  Trump might stamp his little footie, but the military isn?t going to follow him into a coup.

 

To answer your question, I would guess Trump will not stay around for four years if he wins.  He will be frustrated with the lack of power the US president has, and hand over the keys to the nuclear subs after a couple years to whoever that guy is, his running mate, Mike somebody, and go back to running his empire.

 

John if you really want to worry about this kind of thing, you need to work in black helicopters somewhere.  But it raises the question, why do the helicopters need to be black to make a decent conspiracy theory?  Will gray ones do?  How about blue?  White?  Why black?  And do they need to be helicopters, or will other aircraft suffice?  Harrier jets and the new F-35 can do vertical takeoff and landing, as well as those nifty V-22 Osprey tiltrotor craft, so if we substitute those, can we still theorize an executive branch coup happening in four years?

 

John let it go man.  We know both these front runners are dangerous power-grabbers.  One is crazy and says whatever comes into his mind.  The other is senile and dishonest.  We know he or she will go in as the least trusted most disliked president in American history, and his or her administration will be an abject failure before he or she is even sworn in.  

 

Of course there might be a downside to that somewhere.  But people like Clinton and Trump are the reason the constitution is written the way it is: to protect us from people like them.

 

So don?t vote for them.  Hear the footsteps.

 

spike

   

 

 

 

 

 

 

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From pharos at gmail.com  Fri Oct 21 08:27:20 2016
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2016 09:27:20 +0100
Subject: [ExI] The Unsong
In-Reply-To: <CAAc1gFg0fWfcm+xbOB3fxMZ6O16dqTkS6HgFDj+9foYnwLnGBA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAc1gFg0fWfcm+xbOB3fxMZ6O16dqTkS6HgFDj+9foYnwLnGBA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armgGLhw_75pU3=FHGEAsZOW3RAHD_Xe05GASZKn=9o5Kfw@mail.gmail.com>

On 21 October 2016 at 05:05, Rafal Smigrodzki  wrote:
> ### And Now For Something Completely Different - I just noticed you are
> reading and commenting on the Unsong!
>
> A most uproariously complex and multi-level intellectually entertaining
> prose, shading into poetry, isn't it? And morally uplifting to boot!
>
> What amazes me is that Scott (or whatever his name is), while being a good
> atheist, exhibits such a nuanced command of the holy books. A true
> Renaissance intellect who engages SJWs in ruthless combat.
>
> Extropians, if you haven't read the Unsong, do it now.
>


Link:  <http://unsongbook.com/>


BillK


From sparge at gmail.com  Fri Oct 21 12:11:39 2016
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2016 08:11:39 -0400
Subject: [ExI] question for libertarians
In-Reply-To: <CAAc1gFgUVjny8Jca2zu5MYpnPpXNR_XOi-8Wca18jA3ws=4M+w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYBfr7uJCjkCu=3=mn28ExC-ts8HejcSd5Hkd2orYz+jQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNSyBQ4Vq5dePqgpDv8s9t5U6ZJ53mWygzLYT-+f2pg0PQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNT93znO7gD-r_0_JX2zctDJRGZLAH=-30iyU684QTh8Dg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2dHYNZaosdnah2vo4tr=whAsZpeEYazdD539p1TypXpmA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRHN8MY8b036MZfoHddpc5KvLxE96OpkTnygFewn6te5w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2dRVZZ79SwhaNM_WvTWv9h=4hV273w6kPgvMDzLwxQNVg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFgUVjny8Jca2zu5MYpnPpXNR_XOi-8Wca18jA3ws=4M+w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2d-d56kMj4vokbAR2PE-tU2dzKCFMHpOhp8A7OO9VYdTA@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Oct 20, 2016 at 4:15 PM, Rafal Smigrodzki <
rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com> wrote:

>
> ### What happens if the person does not check either option? A form of
> default, too.
>

They get a phone call from HR or their boss. They still have to choose.

-Dave
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From pharos at gmail.com  Fri Oct 21 12:20:14 2016
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2016 13:20:14 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Drone Wars?
Message-ID: <CAL_armiZdaQ=bSG8_S26M0LsKFJK04oumN71UH1q7DhnLe3B3Q@mail.gmail.com>

Taser is considering a flying, autonomous police drone armed with a stun gun
By Jack Smith IV   October 21, 2016

<https://mic.com/articles/157330/taser-is-considering-a-flying-autonomous-police-drone-armed-with-a-stun-gun>

Quotes:
Taser representatives met with police officials this week at a
conference of police chiefs to discuss the possibility of mounting
stun guns on small, quadcopter-style drones for police to deploy for
potential use-of-force scenarios, the Wall Street Journal reports.

"One can certainly imagine high-risk scenarios such as terrorist
barricades where such a capability could allow public safety officers
to more rapidly incapacitate a threat and save many lives," Taser
spokesman Steve Tuttle told the Journal.

Police officials in attendance were understandably worried that the
presentation could cause some nervousness among the public.
--------------

The obvious next step (not mentioned in the article) is for
individuals to have personal defence drones ready to attack drones or
other attackers. Not flying all the time due to power restrictions,
but perhaps perched on shoulders ready to leap into action.


BillK


From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Oct 21 13:53:54 2016
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2016 08:53:54 -0500
Subject: [ExI] gut science
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZFjRH8Vx6Qu4DLkrcj9dBs5RzRiCDX4ky6uKjW4v6qKg@mail.gmail.com>

You may have noticed the large interest in microbes in our guts, which have
been found to contribute to the most amazing things, many of which are
found in the book I recommended awhile back:

I Contain Multitudes

Now you can contribute to this science for $25.  You get a kit, oral or
fecal, and send back your sample.  You get results back (the nature of
which are not evident on the site, but presumably the types of microbes in
your mouth/gut - probably meaningless for now).

Notice that there is a gut project for Europe on this page with a link:

https://fundrazr.com/campaigns/4Tqx5

This is cutting edge stuff.  Just today I read that people who are prone to
headaches have more of a certain type of bacteria in their mouths which
might contribute in some way to migraines.

I don't have to convince you of the importance of science, right?

bill w
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From sparge at gmail.com  Fri Oct 21 14:03:09 2016
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2016 10:03:09 -0400
Subject: [ExI] gut science
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEZFjRH8Vx6Qu4DLkrcj9dBs5RzRiCDX4ky6uKjW4v6qKg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEZFjRH8Vx6Qu4DLkrcj9dBs5RzRiCDX4ky6uKjW4v6qKg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2fricZU0sCdsALv5Nwj48pv830KbDih0TemfghY39JwCQ@mail.gmail.com>

Latest news on the gut front is that certain gut flora might contribute to
migraines:

http://www.webmd.com/migraines-headaches/news/20161018/mouth-and-gut-germs-may-be-linked-to-migraines

-Dave

On Fri, Oct 21, 2016 at 9:53 AM, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
wrote:

> You may have noticed the large interest in microbes in our guts, which
> have been found to contribute to the most amazing things, many of which are
> found in the book I recommended awhile back:
>
> I Contain Multitudes
>
> Now you can contribute to this science for $25.  You get a kit, oral or
> fecal, and send back your sample.  You get results back (the nature of
> which are not evident on the site, but presumably the types of microbes in
> your mouth/gut - probably meaningless for now).
>
> Notice that there is a gut project for Europe on this page with a link:
>
> https://fundrazr.com/campaigns/4Tqx5
>
> This is cutting edge stuff.  Just today I read that people who are prone
> to headaches have more of a certain type of bacteria in their mouths which
> might contribute in some way to migraines.
>
> I don't have to convince you of the importance of science, right?
>
> bill w
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Oct 21 15:16:22 2016
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2016 10:16:22 -0500
Subject: [ExI] gut science
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2fricZU0sCdsALv5Nwj48pv830KbDih0TemfghY39JwCQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEZFjRH8Vx6Qu4DLkrcj9dBs5RzRiCDX4ky6uKjW4v6qKg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2fricZU0sCdsALv5Nwj48pv830KbDih0TemfghY39JwCQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbQCA_9GZwHph-vsB432Uj22iKrPjxESoSFdWc7baxp8A@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Oct 21, 2016 at 9:03 AM, Dave Sill <sparge at gmail.com> wrote:

> Latest news on the gut front is that certain gut flora might contribute to
> migraines:
>
> http://www.webmd.com/migraines-headaches/news/
> 20161018/mouth-and-gut-germs-may-be-linked-to-migraines
>
> -Dave
>

?
And depression, dementia, autism, obesity.
?


?Yeah, I picked that migraine info up from my People's Pharmacy feed.  They
are pretty up to date.  Much of the stuff I've sent about statins and
microbes and low carb started with them.

And depression, dementia, autism, obesity...........bill w?


>
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Fri Oct 21 15:58:57 2016
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2016 11:58:57 -0400
Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Nobody_can_say_we_weren=E2=80=99t_warned?=
In-Reply-To: <003901d22b61$6d6d08d0$48471a70$@att.net>
References: <CAJPayv0J3J6dS0ep23w_+S1jW+SqDtSrm1p5D4SS8fshvZ=1sQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJrqPH_uAnxdOtOKqgyQS-sMSZKbsNH8LW=P2GWOBJc5sJq9Dg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1xCcuSiwgdLaNHV-jLRgTpGr3m76d-1WyWq4wMS-w6mA@mail.gmail.com>
 <00a301d22b4a$e93a1dc0$bbae5940$@att.net>
 <CAJPayv24vuKOc3+H4eq9jp2EXaj-GHRuCGyYbnteOEfNiJCxeQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <003901d22b61$6d6d08d0$48471a70$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv10B8ur=KkDCmHBqv+sC=SKjaS9KkvRE__v41_S5R34ZQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Oct 21, 2016 at 2:07 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:



> ?>?So I ask you Spike, what do you think will happen 4 years from now
>> when President Trump discovers on election day that his reelection isn't
>> going the way he wants? John K Clark
>
>
> ?> ?
> The chief justice swears in the winner,
>

?A chief justice who was appointed by the president.



> ?> ?
> regardless of what the former president thinks of the deal.
>

?
That's what the Constitution
? ?
says but the Constitution
? i?
s not a law of physics
?
 it's just a piece of paper that only has power if the people at the top
agree to abide by it, and that is exactly why it's so terrifying when for
the first time in the country's history a presidential candidate says he
will abide by the results of election day ONLY if he wins.


> ?> ?
> The court is the seat of power which has final say over that matter.


?
The
? ?
court has the final say over the matter IF the people in power agree among
themselves that the constitution and the rule of law is a good thing.
Before Trump this was not an issue, for over 200 years of presidential
elections it was not an issue, but it is now.


> ?> ?
> It was set up that way for a reason.


?
It makes no difference how the system
?is?
 set up if the people at the top refuse
?
 to abide by it. As I say before Trump this was not a problem, but it is
now. Even Nixon had more integrity than Trump, he had legitimate reason
?s?
for concern about the results of the 1960 election but he refused to
contest it for the good of the country. And he certainly didn't start
whining that the election was rigged a month before election day!


> ?> ?
> If the president starts grabbing power, congress steps in and relieves the
> president of duty


?And? what happens when President Trump says congress is rigged just as the
election was rigged and thus they have no legitimate authority to relieve
him from duty and he isn't going anywhere, and there are friendly generals
that he appointed during the last 4 years to back him up?

?> ?
> Trump might stamp his little footie, but the military isn?t going to
> follow him into a coup.


?They wouldn't today but he doesn't hide the fact that after 4 years of
Trump the military will ?
be drastically different from what it is now.?


> > We know both these front runners are dangerous power-grabbers.


?Speak for yourself. I know that one is a
dangerous power-grabber
?, but the other seems like a decent human being to me, at least for a
politician.


> ?>
> One is crazy and says whatever comes into his mind.
>

?Indeed. A direct connection from Trump's spinal cord to his tongue
completely bypassing his brain.   ?



> ?> ?
> The other is senile


?Senile? She beat Trump like a rented mule in 3 debates and demonstrated a
strong understanding of the issues, including what Aleppo is.?


?> ?
> So don?t vote for them.  Hear the footsteps.

Yes I know, make a historic principled gesture and vote for Johnson, but
exactly what historic point would you be making? In 5 years even
talented Trivial Pursuits players will have difficulty naming the
? ?
2016 ?Libertarian Party presidential candidate, and if Gary Johnson is
remembered at all is will be for being the ?
?What
is Aleppo?? man.

 ?John K Clark?






>
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From spike66 at att.net  Fri Oct 21 16:55:45 2016
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2016 09:55:45 -0700
Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Nobody_can_say_we_weren=E2=80=99t_warned?=
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv10B8ur=KkDCmHBqv+sC=SKjaS9KkvRE__v41_S5R34ZQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv0J3J6dS0ep23w_+S1jW+SqDtSrm1p5D4SS8fshvZ=1sQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJrqPH_uAnxdOtOKqgyQS-sMSZKbsNH8LW=P2GWOBJc5sJq9Dg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1xCcuSiwgdLaNHV-jLRgTpGr3m76d-1WyWq4wMS-w6mA@mail.gmail.com>
 <00a301d22b4a$e93a1dc0$bbae5940$@att.net>
 <CAJPayv24vuKOc3+H4eq9jp2EXaj-GHRuCGyYbnteOEfNiJCxeQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <003901d22b61$6d6d08d0$48471a70$@att.net>
 <CAJPayv10B8ur=KkDCmHBqv+sC=SKjaS9KkvRE__v41_S5R34ZQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <009c01d22bbb$f8060af0$e81220d0$@att.net>

 

 

>? On Behalf Of John Clark
Subject: Re: [ExI] Nobody can say we weren?t warned

 

 

 

On Fri, Oct 21, 2016 at 2:07 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net <mailto:spike66 at att.net> > wrote:

 

 

> >??The chief justice swears in the winner,

 

?>?A chief justice who was appointed by the president?

 

Ja we definitely need to go to extraordinary means to protect Roberts.  He is 61, which is young, but 38 is also young (80 days now and counting.)

 

 

>? the Constitution i?s ? just a piece of paper that only has power if the people at the top agree to abide by it?

 

If nothing else, the next president will give America a new love and appreciation for that piece of paper, what it means, how it works and why it was written that way.  Viva constitution!

 

 

>? first time in the country's history a presidential candidate says he will abide by the results of election day ONLY if he wins?

 

He doesn?t need to accept it.  If he loses he will have no legal authority, so what difference does it make?  If he loses by cheating, he still loses.  And so do we.

?

 

 

>?It makes no difference how the system is? set up if the people at the top refuse to abide by it?

 

I am betting on the constitution to win this one.

 

 

>? Even Nixon had more integrity than Trump?

 

This election has certainly cast a new light on Nixon.  The man was a meek and humble SAINT compared to these two.  In retrospect, all he needed to do is destroy all the tapes, use the 1970s equivalent of BleachBit, tell the investigators he didn?t recall anything about any tapes, object to their questions, and on it would go.  No evidence, what difference does it make etc.

 

 

?>?And? what happens when President Trump says congress is rigged? friendly generals that he appointed during the last 4 years to back him up?  

 

I am betting the generals will stand with the law.  They are not killer robots.  Generals and admirals are skilled personnel managers, all of them honest sorts almost without exception.  I do admit we have seen two exceptions very  recently, Petraeus and Cartwright, oy vey.

 

 

?>> ??The other is senile 

 

?>?Senile? 

 

Ja.  In the sworn document to Judicial Watch, in which she was requested to explain the differences in testimony to congress and testimony to the FBI, she said she did not recall 21 times and objected to the question on the rest of them.  That is senility or false testimony under oath.  Your choice America.

 

 

>?She beat Trump like a rented mule in 3 debates and demonstrated a strong understanding of the issues?

 

For some interesting lawyer-esque dodging and deflecting, watch as much as you can stand of the last four minutes of this interview of DNC chairman Donna Brazile, when directly questioned over whether Mrs. Clinton was given the debate questions in advance.  Kelly kept hammering on the question, the DNC chair kept deflecting and is-ising, claiming prosecution because she was a Christian (!) inserting carefully the term ?from CNN? deflect, is-is, dodge the question, deflect, and on and on it goes for 4 solid minutes, and never as far as I can tell is there a direct unambiguous answer to the evidence posed by Kelly, not once.  Advance to the five minute mark:

 

http://freebeacon.com/politics/megyn-kelly-and-donna-brazile-spar-in-post-debate-interview/

 

Aaaaaaastonnnnnnnishing interview, amazing.  My conclusion: Clinton had the questions in advance.  The DNC chair got them somehow, and supplied them.  Clinton won those debates by cheating.

 

>? including what Aleppo is.?..

 

I consider it a bad thing for a US president to think we should be involved in Aleppo.  We cannot fix that.  We can only break it further,  while breaking us further.

 

 

?> >??So don?t vote for them.  Hear the footsteps.

>?Yes I know, make a historic principled gesture and vote for Johnson, but exactly what historic point would you be making? 

You didn?t vote for a hawkish megalomaniac or a hawkish senile gangster.

>?and if Gary Johnson is remembered at all is will be for being the ?What is Aleppo?? man. ?

If this turns out the way I fear it will, we may soon yearn for a president who knows not what is Aleppo.  Unacceptably high is the risk of going to war with the commies where we have nothing to gain and everything to lose.  Now is not the time to elect a war hawk.

Either way, the bright side is that this distasteful affair will be over in three weeks and we can get on with suffering the consequences and our favorite intellectual pursuits.

>?In 5 years even talented Trivial Pursuits players will have difficulty naming the 2016 ?Libertarian Party presidential candidate? John K Clark?

But you will know who you voted for.  I will know who I voted for.  I still have to face the man in the mirror every day when I shave my face.  

Hear the footsteps John, now more than ever.

spike

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Fri Oct 21 19:26:59 2016
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2016 15:26:59 -0400
Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Nobody_can_say_we_weren=E2=80=99t_warned?=
In-Reply-To: <009c01d22bbb$f8060af0$e81220d0$@att.net>
References: <CAJPayv0J3J6dS0ep23w_+S1jW+SqDtSrm1p5D4SS8fshvZ=1sQ@mail.gmail.com>
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 <009c01d22bbb$f8060af0$e81220d0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv0LVWNr3nXG1qCArbf2WkX24_VaO0Bw8j7SMRt7Pb0E5w@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Oct 21, 2016 at 12:55 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote

>
>> ?> ?
>> ? first time in the country's history a presidential candidate says he
>> will abide by the results of election day ONLY if he wins?
>
>
> ?> ?
> He doesn?t need to accept it.  If he loses he will have no legal
> authority, so what difference does it make?
>

?If? the president has been promoting generals loyal to him for 4 years and
has the military to back up his orders the president can do whatever he
likes and it doesn't make the slightest difference if he has the legal
authority to do so or not. As I said the constitution is not a law of
physics, it has power only if people agree that it has power, and for the
first time in the history of the country a presidential contender has
openly declared he will not abide by the constitution. Nobody can say we
weren't warned.


> ?> ?
> If he loses by cheating, he still loses.


?And in 4 years if Trump wins ?by cheating he still wins. But we don't.


?> ?
> I am betting on the constitution to win this one.


?Maybe, ?but I'm not willing to bet my life on that, especially when the
top constitutional officer openly declares he will abide with the
constitution *ONLY* if he wins.

?> ?
> I am betting the generals will stand with the law.


?Maybe, ?but I'm not willing to bet my life on that, especially
?after ?4 years when the president will be the one who has appointed all
the generals.

?>> ?
>> She beat Trump like a rented mule in 3 debates and demonstrated a strong
>> understanding of the issues, including what Aleppo is.
>>
>
> ?> ?
> My conclusion: Clinton had the questions in advance.  The DNC chair got
> them somehow, and supplied them.  Clinton won those debates by cheating.


?
Clinton might have gotten some of the questions in the Democratic
? ?
primary debate if you believe the information Vladimir Putin
? ?
hacked from the DNC, but I didn't even watch those debates, I'm talking
about the 3 debates Clinton had with Trump. She was masterful. And by the
way, Ronald Reagan stole all of Jimmy Carter's debate briefing papers
? ?
before the
?ir?
1980 debate
?, Reagan knew what Carter's entire debate strategy would be and what
answers he would give to various questions. After the election
when it was investigated Reagan's White House Chief of Staff
?James Baker ?
swore under oath that he got
?Carter's ?
papers from CIA director William Casey
?,?
but Casey said under oath that was untrue. Somebody perjured himself but to
this day we don't know who.

Bonus question: why do you suppose
Vladimir Putin
? is trying so hard to make Trump president?

?> ?
> I consider it a bad thing for a US president to think we should be
> involved in Aleppo.


?Do you also consider it a bad thing for a US president to not even know
that there is a thing called "Aleppo"? Johnson has turned the Libertarian
Party into a laughing stock. I'm embarrassed to tell people I'm a
libertarian, I make sure they understand I'm a small l libertarian who is
voting for Clinton.    ?



> > the bright side is that this distasteful affair will be over in three
> weeks and we can get on with suffering the consequences and our favorite
> intellectual pursuits.


?Now that I agree with.?

?On November 8 the trigger of revolver aimed at our head will be pulled and
the hammer will either land on an empty chamber or it won't. One way or the
other it will be over.

 ?John K Clark?





>
>
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From atymes at gmail.com  Fri Oct 21 20:07:40 2016
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2016 13:07:40 -0700
Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Nobody_can_say_we_weren=E2=80=99t_warned?=
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv0LVWNr3nXG1qCArbf2WkX24_VaO0Bw8j7SMRt7Pb0E5w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv0J3J6dS0ep23w_+S1jW+SqDtSrm1p5D4SS8fshvZ=1sQ@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CALAdGNTEFxvPtC0fhXvnY5dna4n0H-ZYsVZUTEDdEmB9KBD_nA@mail.gmail.com>

On Oct 21, 2016 12:28 PM, "John Clark" <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:
> ?On November 8 the trigger of revolver aimed at our head will be pulled
and the hammer will either land on an empty chamber or it won't. One way or
the other it will be over.

Actually, I would like your opinion on a certain scenario where it isn't.

Assume that, by the morning of November 9th, it is clear that Hillary will
have leads of at least 5 percentage points in enough states that the
electoral college will give her a solid majority vote.  Trump refuses to
accept defeat.

What might Trump do to try to win in that scenario?  Obviously he can claim
the vote was rigged, but what would he and his followers actually do about
it that might be of any consequence?
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Oct 21 22:15:52 2016
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2016 17:15:52 -0500
Subject: [ExI] question for libertarians
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2d-d56kMj4vokbAR2PE-tU2dzKCFMHpOhp8A7OO9VYdTA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYBfr7uJCjkCu=3=mn28ExC-ts8HejcSd5Hkd2orYz+jQ@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZys-gRjm5s4br3ey44L5P5nSvPGi2eqRWktENx9QyErw@mail.gmail.com>

OK, the opt in or out example is over, so try these:

Here's  another nudge:  put a photo with human eyes, or even just a picture
of eyes in the coffee room and you'll get a lot more donations to the
coffee fund.  Just the implied observation of others is enough to
significantly change people.  Is this OK?

Here's another:  "Over 90% of Minnesotans have filed their taxes for this
year" proved the winner over several other nudges in getting people to
file.  Others included threats.  Just going along with others is
rewarding.  OK?

Here's another:  Don't Mess With Texas (road sign all over the state) -
national winner slogan.  Lowered the littering the best of all nudges.  OK?

bill w

On Fri, Oct 21, 2016 at 7:11 AM, Dave Sill <sparge at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thu, Oct 20, 2016 at 4:15 PM, Rafal Smigrodzki <
> rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> ### What happens if the person does not check either option? A form of
>> default, too.
>>
>
> They get a phone call from HR or their boss. They still have to choose.
>
> -Dave
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From spike66 at att.net  Fri Oct 21 23:22:35 2016
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2016 16:22:35 -0700
Subject: [ExI] question for libertarians
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEZys-gRjm5s4br3ey44L5P5nSvPGi2eqRWktENx9QyErw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYBfr7uJCjkCu=3=mn28ExC-ts8HejcSd5Hkd2orYz+jQ@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CAAc1gFgUVjny8Jca2zu5MYpnPpXNR_XOi-8Wca18jA3ws=4M+w@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <006201d22bf2$021ed220$065c7660$@att.net>

 

 

>? On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace
Subject: Re: [ExI] question for libertarians

 

OK, the opt in or out example is over, so try these:

 

>?Here's  another nudge:  put a photo with human eyes?  Is this OK?

 

I see nothing wrong with that at all.  OK.

 

 

>?  "Over 90% of Minnesotans have filed their taxes for this year?  OK?

 

Sure, if it?s true, fair game.  OK.

 

 

>?Here's another:  Don't Mess With Texas (road sign all over the state) - national winner slogan.  Lowered the littering the best of all nudges.  OK? bill w

 

Better than OK, this one is good.  

 

Texas gets it.  Notice Texas seldom has the kinds of problems a lot of other states have.  They don?t have a lot of silly rules and laws; it?s kind of libertarian in that way.  But the ones they do have, ya better watch yourself, because they mean it.

 

spike

 

 

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From danust2012 at gmail.com  Fri Oct 21 23:55:24 2016
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2016 16:55:24 -0700
Subject: [ExI] question for libertarians
Message-ID: <709EAC1F-2DE8-4B73-A501-33EEDF7A7F0B@gmail.com>

I'm not sure if the original question was about requiring all firms to adhere to the same policy. If so, the libertarian answer would be: No way. In other words, if one firm decides they want to default to Yes (or No) that shouldn't bind anyone except those who decide to work for that firm under those terms. Another firm could have the opposite default or even no retirement plan at all.

Libertarian paternalism, especially the nudge idea, works under the presumption that one default is good, but that presumes those who decide the default for everyone -- in this example, all employees at all firms -- know what's best. It also presumes that because of their knowledge they have a right to enforce a default on everyone. Libertarians, however, should question both presumptions here -- not quibble over which default is libertarian.  

Regards,

Dan
  Sample my Kindle books via:
http://author.to/DanUst
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sat Oct 22 00:05:30 2016
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2016 19:05:30 -0500
Subject: [ExI] question for libertarians
In-Reply-To: <709EAC1F-2DE8-4B73-A501-33EEDF7A7F0B@gmail.com>
References: <709EAC1F-2DE8-4B73-A501-33EEDF7A7F0B@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbyaFZ9LAS5WQ1rBKRPfd10iW+70WyQObDt70952OJiHA@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Oct 21, 2016 at 6:55 PM, Dan TheBookMan <danust2012 at gmail.com>
wrote:

> I'm not sure if the original question was about requiring all firms to
> adhere to the same policy. If so, the libertarian answer would be: No way.
> In other words, if one firm decides they want to default to Yes (or No)
> that shouldn't bind anyone except those who decide to work for that firm
> under those terms. Another firm could have the opposite default or even no
> retirement plan at all.
>
> Libertarian paternalism, especially the nudge idea, works under the
> presumption that one default is good, but that presumes those who decide
> the default for everyone -- in this example, all employees at all firms --
> know what's best. It also presumes that because of their knowledge they
> have a right to enforce a default on everyone. Libertarians, however,
> should question both presumptions here -- not quibble over which default is
> libertarian.
>
> Regards,
>
> Dan
>

?Company policy, not laws.  "enforce a default" offers no choice.  There is
only one default offered in the 'opt out' setting:  'in'.  In the 'opt in'
setting the default is 'out'.  bill w
?


>   Sample my Kindle books via:
> http://author.to/DanUst
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Sat Oct 22 15:03:31 2016
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2016 11:03:31 -0400
Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Nobody_can_say_we_weren=E2=80=99t_warned?=
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNTEFxvPtC0fhXvnY5dna4n0H-ZYsVZUTEDdEmB9KBD_nA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv0J3J6dS0ep23w_+S1jW+SqDtSrm1p5D4SS8fshvZ=1sQ@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAJPayv0W7ejT5GRdvXVzg387H8261d20hmo4FDXiUY2vUF9Rng@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Oct 21, 2016 at 4:07 PM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:

> ?> ?
> Assume that, by the morning of November 9th, it is clear that Hillary will
> have leads of at least 5 percentage points in enough states that the
> electoral college will give her a solid majority vote.  Trump refuses to
> accept defeat.
> ? ?
> What might Trump do to try to win in that scenario?  Obviously he can
> claim the vote was rigged, but what would he and his followers actually do
> about it that might be of any consequence?


?Well, Trump has already said the "second amendment people" might be able
to impose a second amendment remedy; and Trump has also said Hillary's
secret service protection agents should stop using guns. So Adrian you tell
me, what do you think that's code for?  And as bad as this is imagine if
Trump wasn't just a private citizen but was a sitting president and he
refused to accept the results of an election when he lost his reelection
bid. That nightmare scenario could happen in 4 years. Maybe Trump would end
up winning this confrontation maybe he wouldn't but either way it wouldn't
be much fun, Syria isn't the only country that can have a civil war.

 John K Clark
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From atymes at gmail.com  Sat Oct 22 16:24:26 2016
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2016 09:24:26 -0700
Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Nobody_can_say_we_weren=E2=80=99t_warned?=
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv0W7ejT5GRdvXVzg387H8261d20hmo4FDXiUY2vUF9Rng@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv0J3J6dS0ep23w_+S1jW+SqDtSrm1p5D4SS8fshvZ=1sQ@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CALAdGNQmSpWrJeyzV53fdsm=xQ3TLff+f3VSXw8Xe2NCUWdRaQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Oct 22, 2016 at 8:03 AM, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

>
> On Fri, Oct 21, 2016 at 4:07 PM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> ?> ?
>> Assume that, by the morning of November 9th, it is clear that Hillary
>> will have leads of at least 5 percentage points in enough states that the
>> electoral college will give her a solid majority vote.  Trump refuses to
>> accept defeat.
>> ? ?
>> What might Trump do to try to win in that scenario?  Obviously he can
>> claim the vote was rigged, but what would he and his followers actually do
>> about it that might be of any consequence?
>
>
> ?Well, Trump has already said the "second amendment people" might be able
> to impose a second amendment remedy; and Trump has also said Hillary's
> secret service protection agents should stop using guns. So Adrian you tell
> me, what do you think that's code for?
>

I know his intentions.  I know his signals.  I am asking you to consider
what he might actually DO if he loses, and actually confront it instead of
just hint at it.  What forces could he still marshal at that point, and how
might they be countered?

Because this is a lot more probable than him getting fairly elected at this
point.  If you want to focus on the nightmare, please at least focus on
more likely nightmares.
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From spike66 at att.net  Sat Oct 22 16:18:02 2016
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2016 09:18:02 -0700
Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Nobody_can_say_we_weren=E2=80=99t_warned?=
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv0W7ejT5GRdvXVzg387H8261d20hmo4FDXiUY2vUF9Rng@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv0J3J6dS0ep23w_+S1jW+SqDtSrm1p5D4SS8fshvZ=1sQ@mail.gmail.com>
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 <003901d22b61$6d6d08d0$48471a70$@att.net>
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 <009c01d22bbb$f8060af0$e81220d0$@att.net>
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Message-ID: <014d01d22c7f$dd30fe50$9792faf0$@att.net>

 

 

From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of John Clark
?

 

?>?Well, Trump has already said the "second amendment people" might be able to impose a second amendment remedy?

 

I am the poster child second amendment person, so I feel qualified to answer please.  Second amendment people are law and order types (there is a reason why you never hear of an intentional shooting at a gun show (but we damn sure do hear of intentional shootings in gun-free zones (how is it even possible for shootings to occur where guns are illegal?)))  

 

I am all for the second amendment, and the first, and I support the legally-elected government, even if I don?t like it (I don?t like it now for instance, but it was legally elected as far as I can tell.)  So? Second amendment people, all of them I know, would support the law.  

 

>? Trump has also said Hillary's secret service protection agents should stop using guns?

 

Heh.  If he wins, you can be sure the secret service agents will not stop using guns.  Disregard.

 

>? what do you think that's code for?

 

I hear that comment a lot, but no one can produce a consistent code book.  I keep hearing of this racists code, the conservative code, the this code and the that code.  Is there a link somewhere?  A standard reference?  How do we find out what all these codes mean?  Who wrote it?  We are told the phrase ?Make America Great Again? is some kind of racists secret code.  Where is the decoder ring for that?  And what if? someone really does mean that literal exact meme and nothing else.  How is it to be worded so as not to be code for something unrelated?  Is that like the teenagers of Long Island being advised to not wear anything blue because it is some kind of secret gang signal?

 

I suspect the whole notion of the secret code word is bogus as a three-dollar bill.   Without some standardized code book, anything can be a secret code for anything.  Disregard.

 

 

 

>? That nightmare scenario could happen in 4 years. Maybe Trump would end up winning this confrontation maybe he wouldn't but either way it wouldn't be much fun, Syria isn't the only country that can have a civil war? John K Clark

 

Alternative scenario: Trump or Clinton gets elected, steps beyond the power of his or her office, an alert senate is ready to impeach him or her, we re-establish the nearly-forgotten structure of constitutional government.  

 

The probability of the next president being impeached is very high.  Of course there might be some negative consequences to that.  I just can?t think of one at the moment.

 

spike 


 

 

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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sat Oct 22 17:13:29 2016
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2016 12:13:29 -0500
Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Nobody_can_say_we_weren=E2=80=99t_warned?=
In-Reply-To: <014d01d22c7f$dd30fe50$9792faf0$@att.net>
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Message-ID: <CAO+xQEaSfw+jbpnB7H-baOVN5KLvfB91uJnD9bsSV7Qo7a5Wdw@mail.gmail.com>

>? what do you think that's code for?



I hear that comment a lot, but no one can produce a consistent code book.
I keep hearing of this racists code, the conservative code, the this code
and the that code.  Is there a link somewhere?  spike


Maybe this is the new way of saying 'hidden agenda'; it could mean
anything, but probably something you won't like.   Does 'agenda' sound
kinda suspicious to you?  Why?


 bill w




On Sat, Oct 22, 2016 at 11:18 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *From:* extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] *On
> Behalf Of *John Clark
> *?*
>
>
>
> ?>?Well, Trump has already said the "second amendment people" might be
> able to impose a second amendment remedy?
>
>
>
> I am the poster child second amendment person, so I feel qualified to
> answer please.  Second amendment people are law and order types (there is a
> reason why you never hear of an intentional shooting at a gun show (but we
> damn sure do hear of intentional shootings in gun-free zones (how is it
> even possible for shootings to occur where guns are illegal?)))
>
>
>
> I am all for the second amendment, and the first, and I support the
> legally-elected government, even if I don?t like it (I don?t like it now
> for instance, but it was legally elected as far as I can tell.)  So? Second
> amendment people, all of them I know, would support the law.
>
>
>
> >? Trump has also said Hillary's secret service protection agents should
> stop using guns?
>
>
>
> Heh.  If he wins, you can be sure the secret service agents will not stop
> using guns.  Disregard.
>
>
>
> >? what do you think that's code for?
>
>
>
> I hear that comment a lot, but no one can produce a consistent code book.
> I keep hearing of this racists code, the conservative code, the this code
> and the that code.  Is there a link somewhere?  A standard reference?  How
> do we find out what all these codes mean?  Who wrote it?  We are told the
> phrase ?Make America Great Again? is some kind of racists secret code.
> Where is the decoder ring for that?  And what if? someone really does mean
> that literal exact meme and nothing else.  How is it to be worded so as not
> to be code for something unrelated?  Is that like the teenagers of Long
> Island being advised to not wear anything blue because it is some kind of
> secret gang signal?
>
>
>
> I suspect the whole notion of the secret code word is bogus as a
> three-dollar bill.   Without some standardized code book, anything can be a
> secret code for anything.  Disregard.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >? That nightmare scenario could happen in 4 years. Maybe Trump would end
> up winning this confrontation maybe he wouldn't but either way it wouldn't
> be much fun, Syria isn't the only country that can have a civil war? John K
> Clark
>
>
>
> Alternative scenario: Trump or Clinton gets elected, steps beyond the
> power of his or her office, an alert senate is ready to impeach him or her,
> we re-establish the nearly-forgotten structure of constitutional
> government.
>
>
>
> The probability of the next president being impeached is very high.  Of
> course there might be some negative consequences to that.  I just can?t
> think of one at the moment.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Sat Oct 22 17:25:33 2016
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2016 13:25:33 -0400
Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Nobody_can_say_we_weren=E2=80=99t_warned?=
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNQmSpWrJeyzV53fdsm=xQ3TLff+f3VSXw8Xe2NCUWdRaQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv0J3J6dS0ep23w_+S1jW+SqDtSrm1p5D4SS8fshvZ=1sQ@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAJPayv0o7k2Sq3QBHvT+C0UnKNDPKPXQESobQfLuoZKxDfJpbw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Oct 22, 2016 at 12:24 PM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:

?
>> ?>> ?
>> Trump has already said the "second amendment people" might be able to
>> impose a second amendment remedy; and Trump has also said Hillary's secret
>> service protection agents should stop using guns. So Adrian you tell me,
>> what do you think that's code for?
>>
>
> ?> ?
> I know his intentions.  I know his signals.
>

?
If you already know that Trump is signaling somebody in his basket of
deplorables (I make absolutely no apology for the term) to assassinate the
president why the hell did you vote for Mr. What Is Aleppo?


> ?> ?
> I am asking you to consider what he might actually DO if he loses
>

?
That very much depends on if he loses now or if he loses in 4 years when
President Trump's reelection campaign doesn't go as planned. Things would
be bad
?this year?
 if Trump plays the sore loser
? ?
card on November 9, but
? ?
it would be a
? ?
horrifying
nightmare in 4 years. And
? ?
yet
? ?
you voted for Mr. I Can't Name A Single Foreign Leader
? because you wanted to make a principled stand. ?What exactly was the
principle you were standing up for? Ignorance?


> ?> ?
> What forces could he still marshal at that point,
>

?At this point all he has is his deplorables, but in 4 years Trump could
marshal thousands of H-bombs in the nuclear arsenal of the USA, not to
mention a few hundred thousand tanks. And you refused to try to stop this
because you didn't like Hillary's sloppy E-mail server.    ?


> ?> ?
> and how might they be countered?
>

?By voting for Hillary today!? But you no longer have that option, all you
can do is hope some people are wiser than you.

 John K Clark


>
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From atymes at gmail.com  Sat Oct 22 17:54:48 2016
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2016 10:54:48 -0700
Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Nobody_can_say_we_weren=E2=80=99t_warned?=
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv0o7k2Sq3QBHvT+C0UnKNDPKPXQESobQfLuoZKxDfJpbw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv0J3J6dS0ep23w_+S1jW+SqDtSrm1p5D4SS8fshvZ=1sQ@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CALAdGNTEFxvPtC0fhXvnY5dna4n0H-ZYsVZUTEDdEmB9KBD_nA@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CALAdGNSct9mZ4y7cJg7JYsG7L8fZ5wXjHeqoGdfW2xQH6DsApA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Oct 22, 2016 at 10:25 AM, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

> If you already know that Trump is signaling somebody in his basket of
> deplorables (I make absolutely no apology for the term) to assassinate the
> president why the hell did you vote for Mr. What Is Aleppo?
>

Because my state's electors are going to Hillary no matter what.  A third
party vote in my state can not assist Trump in any way, shape, or form,
with odds of practically 100%.  The only way he can get California's
electors is if he's won anyway.

With that off the table, I am free to protest vote, so I did.


> ?> ?
>> I am asking you to consider what he might actually DO if he loses
>>
>
> ?
> That very much depends on if he loses now or if he loses in 4 years
>

The scenario I asked you to consider involves Trump losing now, to put
aside for the moment what happens if Trump wins and instead consider what
damage he could do if he loses (specifically, if the vote goes against him
but he is determined to win despite the election results).

I ask again: if he loses this election, the one in 2016, with him having
never yet been President of the US, what do you think may happen?
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From spike66 at att.net  Sat Oct 22 18:01:44 2016
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2016 11:01:44 -0700
Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?transparency_again=3A_was=3A__RE=3A__Nobody_can_s?=
	=?utf-8?q?ay_we_weren=E2=80=99t_warned?=
Message-ID: <003501d22c8e$5a6ae9e0$0f40bda0$@att.net>

 

 

From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace
?

 

>?Maybe this is the new way of saying 'hidden agenda'; it could mean anything, but probably something you won't like.   Does 'agenda' sound kinda suspicious to you?  Why?  bill w

 

Ja, that is coming thru like nobody?s business, and demonstrating that Julian was right on, all along.  Those of you who remember his ExI posts from about mid-90s; Assange was all about transparency for government, privacy for citizens.

 

How right he was.  Reasoning: most Americans here agree we are choosing between the least distasteful of two untrustworthy mainstream candidates.  We who hear the footsteps have few illusions, we know what is coming.  We have candidates with hidden agendas.  These agendas are being exposed nearly every day for one candidate, the other exposing his regularly and intentionally nearly every day.  Both are power grabbers, neither are trustworthy.  Congress, be ready to do what the constitution requires, and do it quickly, if called upon.

 

Julian was right all along, so right was Assange.  Like him or dislike him, he was right: transparency really is the best disinfectant.  Oh that man saw clearly, deep into the future, twenty years ago.

 

spike

 

 

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From hibbert at mydruthers.com  Sat Oct 22 18:15:04 2016
From: hibbert at mydruthers.com (Chris Hibbert)
Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2016 11:15:04 -0700
Subject: [ExI] question for libertarians
Message-ID: <8b6a651a-3acb-acc2-f07a-06c2567480ed@mydruthers.com>

William Flynn Wallace asked:
> OK, the opt in or out example is over, so try these:
>
> Here's  another nudge:  put a photo with human eyes, or even just a picture
> of eyes in the coffee room and you'll get a lot more donations to the
> coffee fund.  Just the implied observation of others is enough to
> significantly change people.  Is this OK?
>
> Here's another:  "Over 90% of Minnesotans have filed their taxes for this
> year" proved the winner over several other nudges in getting people to
> file.  Others included threats.  Just going along with others is
> rewarding.  OK?
>
> Here's another:  Don't Mess With Texas (road sign all over the state) -
> national winner slogan.  Lowered the littering the best of all nudges.

The problem with these studies that show detectable effects from subtle 
nudges is that there's no way to spin a consistent story about what 
consequences they would have in the real world, where we're surrounded 
by prompts, intentional and unintended, pushing us in all directions.

This points back to the "replication crisis" in psychology and other 
social sciences. Similar studies have shown consequences from watchful 
eyes, reminders about youth or old age, consequences of smoking, 
benefits of charity, reminders to respect authority or the military, or 
just plain patriotic or team-oriented symbols. ("blue is calming for 
men, except in places where it's the color of a major sports team.")

In the real world, we're surrounded by art, advertising, muzak, 
architecture, co-workers with diverse opinions, movies, and on and on. 
How can anyone expect a photo of the president or an actress in the 
coffee room to have an impact on just one thing? And if there's a 
Dilbert cartoon on someone's office door as you walk to the coffee room, 
will that negate it or reinforce it? What if you just voted, or 
discussed politics the previous evening with friends?

I don't believe the studies have significant consequences for the real 
world. It's fine to post reminders to try to influence people. More 
nudges in more different directions leaves people to decide for 
themselves, it doesn't force them to act in any particular way (unless 
one agent is in complete control of the environment.)

Chris
  --
Computers are telescopes we use to see the infosphere.
Some care about telescopes, most want to see the stars.
  Paraphrased from Gelernter

Chris Hibbert
hibbert at mydruthers.com
Blog:   http://www.pancrit.org
http://mydruthers.com


From hibbert at mydruthers.com  Sat Oct 22 18:35:39 2016
From: hibbert at mydruthers.com (Chris Hibbert)
Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2016 11:35:39 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Nobody can say we weren't warned
Message-ID: <349f4add-b6fb-101b-6105-bdc11bc10a77@mydruthers.com>


John Clark blathered:
> If [... Trump ...]  why the hell did you vote for Mr. What Is
> Aleppo?

I'd rather have a president who has a policy position on the Middle
East that doesn't call for military intervention at every turn than
someone who's carefully tracking the details of which faction is
currently in control of which region. There are more important things
to get right.

My vote isn't going to change the outcome, so arguing that I *must*
vote for one with a certifiable chance of winning doesn't carry water
with me. AFAICT, the main consequences of my actions are results of my
speaking to acquaintances about what I believe. The main effect of my
vote is in the vote totals the day after the election. One more vote
for a demopublican is completely unnoticeable (no politician ever read
votes in his/her column as a vote against the other candidate), while
another vote for a third party candidate who broadly represents my
views is worth the time it takes.

> if [... Trump ...] And yet you voted for Mr. I Can't Name A Single
> Foreign Leader because you wanted to make a principled stand.

The question wasn't "Can you name a foreign leader?", it was "Please
name a foreign leader you respect", and as Gary Johnson pointed out,
if anyone you name has any warts, those become your warts. These days,
it isn't safe for a politician to profess respect for Thomas Jefferson
or George Washington. Do you think Bishop Tutu is safe? Maggie
Thatcher?

Can you name a foreign leader that you wouldn't be pilloried for in
some circles? I'd have expressed limited respect for some things that
Thatcher or Mandela did, and point out that Germany's Merkel has been
welcoming to refugees.


And John, as far as your subject line goes, I've been warned about the
dangers of voting for Johnson, Trump, Clinton, of staying home, and
many other things. So, yes you've added to the din, but the incessant
harping on a single candidate you find unacceptable doesn't make this
a better place to have a conversation related to positive futures. I 
wish you'd stop.

Chris
   --
It is easy to turn an aquarium into fish soup, but not so
easy to turn fish soup back into an aquarium.
-- Lech Walesa on reverting to a market economy.

Chris Hibbert
hibbert at mydruthers.com
Blog:   http://www.pancrit.org
http://mydruthers.com


From danust2012 at gmail.com  Sat Oct 22 18:55:45 2016
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2016 11:55:45 -0700
Subject: [ExI] question for libertarians
In-Reply-To: <83F5C638-D354-4FCD-BF05-BAA10C4545FA@yahoo.com>
References: <709EAC1F-2DE8-4B73-A501-33EEDF7A7F0B@gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEbyaFZ9LAS5WQ1rBKRPfd10iW+70WyQObDt70952OJiHA@mail.gmail.com>
 <83F5C638-D354-4FCD-BF05-BAA10C4545FA@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <315AEAA3-1084-416E-9D09-E3B52EF8EA80@gmail.com>

On Oct 21, 2016, at 5:05 PM, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Oct 21, 2016 at 6:55 PM, Dan TheBookMan <danust2012 at gmail.com>wrote:
>> I'm not sure if the original question was about requiring all firms to adhere to the same policy. If so, the libertarian answer would be: No way. In other words, if one firm decides they want to default to Yes (or No) that shouldn't bind anyone except those who decide to work for that firm under those terms. Another firm could have the opposite default or even no retirement plan at all.
>> 
>> Libertarian paternalism, especially the nudge idea, works under the presumption that one default is good, but that presumes those who decide the default for everyone -- in this example, all employees at all firms -- know what's best. It also presumes that because of their knowledge they have a right to enforce a default on everyone. Libertarians, however, should question both presumptions here -- not quibble over which default is libertarian.  
>> 
>> Regards,
>> 
>> Dan
> 
> ?Company policy, not laws.  "enforce a default" offers no choice.  There is only one default offered in the 'opt out' setting:  'in'.  In the 'opt in' setting the default is 'out'.  bill w

Then the 'libertarian' answer should be obvious: each firm should be permitted to set its default as it please -- as I mentioned above. Think of a similar case: should restaurants be allowed to charge before or after serving the meal? Let the restaurants decide. There is no other libertarian position here. It's kind of like asking if the libertarian position is to wear a pullover or a shirt. ;)

Regards,

Dan
  Sample my Kindle books via:
http://author.to/DanUst
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From dan_ust at yahoo.com  Sat Oct 22 18:54:44 2016
From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan Ust)
Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2016 11:54:44 -0700
Subject: [ExI] question for libertarians
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEbyaFZ9LAS5WQ1rBKRPfd10iW+70WyQObDt70952OJiHA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <709EAC1F-2DE8-4B73-A501-33EEDF7A7F0B@gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEbyaFZ9LAS5WQ1rBKRPfd10iW+70WyQObDt70952OJiHA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <83F5C638-D354-4FCD-BF05-BAA10C4545FA@yahoo.com>

On Oct 21, 2016, at 5:05 PM, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Fri, Oct 21, 2016 at 6:55 PM, Dan TheBookMan <danust2012 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> I'm not sure if the original question was about requiring all firms to adhere to the same policy. If so, the libertarian answer would be: No way. In other words, if one firm decides they want to default to Yes (or No) that shouldn't bind anyone except those who decide to work for that firm under those terms. Another firm could have the opposite default or even no retirement plan at all.
>> 
>> Libertarian paternalism, especially the nudge idea, works under the presumption that one default is good, but that presumes those who decide the default for everyone -- in this example, all employees at all firms -- know what's best. It also presumes that because of their knowledge they have a right to enforce a default on everyone. Libertarians, however, should question both presumptions here -- not quibble over which default is libertarian.  
>> 
>> Regards,
>> 
>> Dan
> 
> ?Company policy, not laws.  "enforce a default" offers no choice.  There is only one default offered in the 'opt out' setting:  'in'.  In the 'opt in' setting the default is 'out'.  bill w

Then the 'libertarian' answer should be obvious: each firm should be permitted to set its default as it please -- as I mentioned above. Think of a similar case: should restaurants be allowed to charge before or after serving the meal? Let the restaurants decide. There is no other libertarian position here. It's kind of like asking if the libertarian position is to wear a pullover or a shirt. ;)

Regards,

Dan
  Sample my Kindle books via:
http://author.to/DanUst
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From lubkin at unreasonable.com  Sat Oct 22 19:17:16 2016
From: lubkin at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin)
Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2016 15:17:16 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Nobody can say we weren't warned
In-Reply-To: <349f4add-b6fb-101b-6105-bdc11bc10a77@mydruthers.com>
References: <349f4add-b6fb-101b-6105-bdc11bc10a77@mydruthers.com>
Message-ID: <201610221917.u9MJHjQd012233@ziaspace.com>

Chris Hibbert wrote:

>The question wasn't "Can you name a foreign leader?", it was "Please
>name a foreign leader you respect"

It was a missed opportunity.

I might have answered Richard Branson or the Dalai Lama. The question 
wasn't *political* leader.

And if Chris Matthews insisted on a political leader Johnson admires, 
he could simply say he doesn't admire politicians.


-- David.




From danust2012 at gmail.com  Sat Oct 22 19:50:45 2016
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2016 12:50:45 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Nobody can say we weren't warned
In-Reply-To: <C0E4F7EB-BEC0-4DF2-A00C-F59663D69A14@yahoo.com>
References: <349f4add-b6fb-101b-6105-bdc11bc10a77@mydruthers.com>
 <201610221917.u9MJHjQd012233@ziaspace.com>
 <C0E4F7EB-BEC0-4DF2-A00C-F59663D69A14@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <01B12A1E-162A-4986-82A2-20612AEB8A20@gmail.com>

On Oct 22, 2016, at 12:17 PM, David Lubkin <lubkin at unreasonable.com> wrote:
> Chris Hibbert wrote:
>> The question wasn't "Can you name a foreign leader?", it was "Please
>> name a foreign leader you respect"
> 
> It was a missed opportunity.
> 
> I might have answered Richard Branson or the Dalai Lama. The question wasn't *political* leader.
> 
> And if Chris Matthews insisted on a political leader Johnson admires, he could simply say he doesn't admire politicians.

Indeed. It should've been yet another clue that Johnson isn't really a libertarian -- certainly not on the level of attitude.

Regards,

Dan
  Sample my Kindle books via:
http://author.to/DanUst
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From danust2012 at gmail.com  Sat Oct 22 19:58:37 2016
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2016 12:58:37 -0700
Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Nobody_can_say_we_weren=E2=80=99t_warned?=
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNQmSpWrJeyzV53fdsm=xQ3TLff+f3VSXw8Xe2NCUWdRaQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv0J3J6dS0ep23w_+S1jW+SqDtSrm1p5D4SS8fshvZ=1sQ@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <23CC3535-77AB-4718-B624-00F5D97ACA54@gmail.com>

On Oct 22, 2016, at 9:24 AM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> On Sat, Oct 22, 2016 at 8:03 AM, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> On Fri, Oct 21, 2016 at 4:07 PM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> ?> ?Assume that, by the morning of November 9th, it is clear that Hillary will have leads of at least 5 percentage points in enough states that the electoral college will give her a solid majority vote.  Trump refuses to accept defeat.? ?What might Trump do to try to win in that scenario?  Obviously he can claim the vote was rigged, but what would he and his followers actually do about it that might be of any consequence?
>>  
>> ?Well, Trump has already said the "second amendment people" might be able to impose a second amendment remedy; and Trump has also said Hillary's secret service protection agents should stop using guns. So Adrian you tell me, what do you think that's code for?
> 
> I know his intentions.  I know his signals.  I am asking you to consider what he might actually DO if he loses, and actually confront it instead of just hint at it.  What forces could he still marshal at that point, and how might they be countered?
>  
> Because this is a lot more probable than him getting fairly elected at this point.  If you want to focus on the nightmare, please at least focus on more likely nightmares.

The talk about disarming the Secret Service is not code for anything. It's Trump borrowing something from the gun rights camp. Some gun rights folks have pointed out that if politicians believe we are safer without gun then the politicians should have their bodyguards disarmed. The point is not to disarm them so there can be open season on politicians, but rather to show that the politicians' arguments are ridiculous. (Whether this succeeds or is a valid is debatable, but the intent should be clear: nothing to do with a call for assassination or for civil war. That should be plain to see, but the obvious often needs pointing out.;)

By the way, it's sad that Trump took that from gun rights folks because now the idea will be tarnished by him a generation or so.

Regards,

Dan
  Sample my Kindle books via:
http://author.to/DanUst
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Sat Oct 22 20:01:45 2016
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2016 16:01:45 -0400
Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Nobody_can_say_we_weren=E2=80=99t_warned?=
In-Reply-To: <014d01d22c7f$dd30fe50$9792faf0$@att.net>
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On Sat, Oct 22, 2016 at 12:18 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:



> >
>> ?> ?
>> ? what do you think that's code for?
>
>
> ?> ?
> I hear that comment a lot, but no one can produce a consistent code book.
>

?You don't need to be ?
Alan Turing
? to figure out Trump's code book, even Trump's room temperature
IQ deplorables
had no trouble decoding it, that's why they howled their approval like
mindless monkeys at his
Nuremberg
?-like?
rally
? when he spoke of second amendment people and second amendment solutions
and disarming Hillary's secret service people. Stop kidding yourself Spike,
everybody in that mob knew exactly what Trump was talking about.   ?

 John K Clark






>
>
>
>
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From dan_ust at yahoo.com  Sat Oct 22 19:49:19 2016
From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan Ust)
Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2016 12:49:19 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Nobody can say we weren't warned
In-Reply-To: <201610221917.u9MJHjQd012233@ziaspace.com>
References: <349f4add-b6fb-101b-6105-bdc11bc10a77@mydruthers.com>
 <201610221917.u9MJHjQd012233@ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <C0E4F7EB-BEC0-4DF2-A00C-F59663D69A14@yahoo.com>

On Oct 22, 2016, at 12:17 PM, David Lubkin <lubkin at unreasonable.com> wrote:
> Chris Hibbert wrote:
>> The question wasn't "Can you name a foreign leader?", it was "Please
>> name a foreign leader you respect"
> 
> It was a missed opportunity.
> 
> I might have answered Richard Branson or the Dalai Lama. The question wasn't *political* leader.
> 
> And if Chris Matthews insisted on a political leader Johnson admires, he could simply say he doesn't admire politicians.

Indeed. It should've been yet another clue that Johnson isn't really a libertarian -- certainly not on the level of attitude.

Regards,

Dan
  Sample my Kindle books via:
http://author.to/DanUst
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Sat Oct 22 20:41:39 2016
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2016 16:41:39 -0400
Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Nobody_can_say_we_weren=E2=80=99t_warned?=
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNSct9mZ4y7cJg7JYsG7L8fZ5wXjHeqoGdfW2xQH6DsApA@mail.gmail.com>
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On Sat, Oct 22, 2016 at 1:54 PM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:



?>> ?
>> If you already know that Trump is signaling somebody in his basket of
>> deplorables (I make absolutely no apology for the term) to assassinate the
>> president why the hell did you vote for Mr. What Is Aleppo?
>
>
> ?> ?
> Because my state's electors are going to Hillary no matter what.
>

?I think some people vote for Mr. What is Aleppo exactly because they know
he has no chance of winning, when the president does something they don't
like, and no matter who wins that's going to happen sooner of later, ?they
want to say "hey don't blame me me I didn't vote for him (or her)". I can
only speak for myself but if Trump wins I'm not going to put the Mr. What
is Aleppo crowd in my blameless book.


> ?>>?
>> That very much depends on if he loses now or if he loses in 4 years
>>
>
> ?> ?
> The scenario I asked you to consider involves Trump losing now, to put
> aside for the moment what happens if Trump wins and instead consider what
> damage he could do if he loses (specifically, if the vote goes against him
> but he is determined to win despite the election results).
>

?Trump could do what he did in 2012 when the election didn't turn out as he
wished, call for an insurrection:  ?


*?"?We should have a revolution in this country!? ?We can't let this
happen. We should march on Washington and stop this travesty.?"*

Back
? in 2012 people just ignored the bozo but there are a lot more deplorables
in Trump's basket now in 2016. Will people ignore Trump's call to arms
again like they did 4 years ago?  I don't know but I do know there is no
shortage of stupid in the world.
But let's suppose Trump wins (and there is still about one chance in 6 that
he will)
?;?
once Trump gets into power how will we ever get him out? ?

?John K Clark?
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From spike66 at att.net  Sat Oct 22 20:32:23 2016
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2016 13:32:23 -0700
Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Nobody_can_say_we_weren=E2=80=99t_warned?=
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv2_NnhhCGXfY2DfWF0dn8bJ-cL6D+K99OShRacvw3J4Mw@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <00cb01d22ca3$66118000$32348000$@att.net>

 

 

>? Behalf Of John Clark
Subject: Re: [ExI] Nobody can say we weren?t warned

 

On Sat, Oct 22, 2016 at 12:18 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net <mailto:spike66 at att.net> > wrote:

 

>>> ?? what do you think that's code for?

> ?> ??I hear that comment a lot, but no one can produce a consistent code book.

 

?>?You don't need to be ?Alan Turing to figure out Trump's code book? John K Clark

 

 

Ah, so this is where we end up: assigning any arbitrary meaning to any words a candidate utters, a meaning dictated by anyone, and we may attribute that meaning to the candidate.  We end up in a most bizarre Newspeak world, where the candidate?s words matter not; the real meaning is found in an arbitrary codebook never published.  In this case, a candidate?s adversaries get to write that candidate?s secret codebook and control its contents.

 

I call nonsense on the whole notion.

 

But I can do better than that.  Consider the case of Sam what?s his name, the swindler on probation who decided to go into the movie business.  When the attack on the embassy in Benghazi took place, our own government officials were desperate to find ANY cover story anywhere to deflect the blame for that, so he was the hapless schmendrick who was assigned the blame, a guy who made a video that no one had ever heard of and one that made no sense.  I viewed it as long as I could stay awake: it made no sense to me, it wasn?t anywhere close to anything having to do with the attack in Benghazi.  Afterwards, the US government went about apologizing for something it did not do and cannot control, which had nothing to do with the matter for which it was blamed.  

 

Our own Attorney General made comments that sounded a lot like if people make internet videos that incite violence, they can be prosecuted.  OK then, if anyone posts a video one does not like, one can incite a riot, then claim that video caused it (hey, if the US government can do it, then others can do it.)  This sounds a lot like buying evidence against one?s own political adversaries.  Everyone on this list has read posts by someone who suffered serious legal sanctions for a trumped-up charge where the evidence was purchased.  Anyone here could suffer the same fate, if speech really isn?t free.

 

The notion of covert meanings and a secret code book leads to all manner of societal chaos.  Any speech could be assigned a secret-code meaning and declared illegal after the fact, having resulted in violent rioting, even if that riot had nothing to do with the presumed encoded meaning.

 

The notion itself is a full frontal assault on our cherished first amendment.

 

spike

 

ps: there are no secret codes anywhere in the previous commentary, none.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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From atymes at gmail.com  Sat Oct 22 20:50:38 2016
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2016 13:50:38 -0700
Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Nobody_can_say_we_weren=E2=80=99t_warned?=
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv1PcOB5CM2Xe0QZJ2GNVfaVc97+FGgWAApjTdeGUs1HOA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv0J3J6dS0ep23w_+S1jW+SqDtSrm1p5D4SS8fshvZ=1sQ@mail.gmail.com>
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On Sat, Oct 22, 2016 at 1:41 PM, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

> But let's suppose Trump wins
>

You're almost as bad as Trump in the debates when it comes to ignoring the
question to talk about what you'd rather talk about.

Spike, are you empowered as moderator to keep people on the question when
they keep running away from it despite being asked to focus on and answer
the question?
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sat Oct 22 21:12:14 2016
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2016 16:12:14 -0500
Subject: [ExI]
	=?utf-8?q?transparency_again=3A_was=3A_RE=3A_Nobody_can_say?=
	=?utf-8?q?_we_weren=E2=80=99t_warned?=
In-Reply-To: <003501d22c8e$5a6ae9e0$0f40bda0$@att.net>
References: <003501d22c8e$5a6ae9e0$0f40bda0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYephBm65RX4z4=zt-pM3qZ9fAQ3qVQW-ddXSJo1Q5oMw@mail.gmail.com>

Julian was right all along, so right was Assange.  Like him or dislike him,
he was right: transparency really is the best disinfectant.  Oh that man
saw clearly, deep into the future, twenty years ago.



spike  Yes, to all of that. I am particularly interested in how the meaning
of the word 'agenda' got changed to something suspicious.  Of course
politicians did that for us by hinting about their opponents' evil plans.
 bill w

On Sat, Oct 22, 2016 at 1:01 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *From:* extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] *On
> Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace
> *?*
>
>
>
> >?Maybe this is the new way of saying 'hidden agenda'; it could mean
> anything, but probably something you won't like.   Does 'agenda' sound
> kinda suspicious to you?  Why?  bill w
>
>
>
> Ja, that is coming thru like nobody?s business, and demonstrating that
> Julian was right on, all along.  Those of you who remember his ExI posts
> from about mid-90s; Assange was all about transparency for government,
> privacy for citizens.
>
>
>
> How right he was.  Reasoning: most Americans here agree we are choosing
> between the least distasteful of two untrustworthy mainstream candidates.
> We who hear the footsteps have few illusions, we know what is coming.  We
> have candidates with hidden agendas.  These agendas are being exposed
> nearly every day for one candidate, the other exposing his regularly and
> intentionally nearly every day.  Both are power grabbers, neither are
> trustworthy.  Congress, be ready to do what the constitution requires, and
> do it quickly, if called upon.
>
>
>
> Julian was right all along, so right was Assange.  Like him or dislike
> him, he was right: transparency really is the best disinfectant.  Oh that
> man saw clearly, deep into the future, twenty years ago.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Sat Oct 22 21:13:28 2016
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2016 17:13:28 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Nobody can say we weren't warned
In-Reply-To: <349f4add-b6fb-101b-6105-bdc11bc10a77@mydruthers.com>
References: <349f4add-b6fb-101b-6105-bdc11bc10a77@mydruthers.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv3GZymH8Va6Edub4B1nqq0oH1AVG6zjkX6_iYjxhMD3sw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Oct 22, 2016  Chris Hibbert <hibbert at mydruthers.com> wrote:

?> ?
> I'd rather have a president who has a policy position on the Middle
> East that doesn't call for military intervention at every turn


?But don't you think it might come in handy if the president at least knows
there is a think called
"the Middle East"??

?If he doesn't know that what else doesn't he know??

?>?
>  than
> ? so
> meone who's carefully tracking the details of which faction is
> currently in control of which region.


?But that's not the chose you've been given, we both know
Gary Johnson
? will never be president. The choose you've been given is between somebody
who wants to torture people and somebody who doesn't, between somebody who
wants to order the military to murder the children of people he does't like
and somebody who doesn't, between somebody who doesn't know why we don't
use nuclear weapons and somebody who does know, between somebody who won't
obey the order the American people give on November 8 and somebody who will
obey it even if she doesn't like it. I know which side of history I want to
be on.

John K Clark       ?

 _
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sat Oct 22 21:27:03 2016
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2016 16:27:03 -0500
Subject: [ExI] question for libertarians
In-Reply-To: <315AEAA3-1084-416E-9D09-E3B52EF8EA80@gmail.com>
References: <709EAC1F-2DE8-4B73-A501-33EEDF7A7F0B@gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbAhUOgnbsN+n=ay5ym5n_jKRby0=t85ZHZpk2eGStH4g@mail.gmail.com>

The problem with these studies that show detectable effects from subtle
nudges is that there's no way to spin a consistent story about what
consequences they would have in the real world, where we're surrounded by
prompts, intentional and unintended, pushing us in all directions.  chris

The problem with your statement is that all three of these were real world
studies with real world consequences.  Nothing is going to work on everyone
of course.  Notice that the Texas sign got a national award:  litter was
measured before and after putting up the signs.   So it was a study but the
signs are still there.

Just think of the warning lights and sounds in your car:  beep when you
have 50 miles less to go; warning light for low oil and low tire pressure -
high end cars probably have the most.  I think it is safe to say that all
of these nudges are welcome except the buzzer about the seat belt, which
nobody likes but saves lives (and insurance company money).  London has
signs at intersections saying LOOK RIGHT.  That is for tourists in whose
own country drivers are on the other side.  Saves lives.  All features of
the real world - not just studies.

So far, I seem to find few serious objections to these nudges if done right
- always with a choice or more.

bill w

No libertarian (maybe some exceptions) likes to be nannied, but I'll bet
most of humanity does and is thankful for the help.

On Sat, Oct 22, 2016 at 1:55 PM, Dan TheBookMan <danust2012 at gmail.com>
wrote:

> On Oct 21, 2016, at 5:05 PM, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> On Fri, Oct 21, 2016 at 6:55 PM, Dan TheBookMan <danust2012 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> I'm not sure if the original question was about requiring all firms to
>> adhere to the same policy. If so, the libertarian answer would be: No way.
>> In other words, if one firm decides they want to default to Yes (or No)
>> that shouldn't bind anyone except those who decide to work for that firm
>> under those terms. Another firm could have the opposite default or even no
>> retirement plan at all.
>>
>> Libertarian paternalism, especially the nudge idea, works under the
>> presumption that one default is good, but that presumes those who decide
>> the default for everyone -- in this example, all employees at all firms --
>> know what's best. It also presumes that because of their knowledge they
>> have a right to enforce a default on everyone. Libertarians, however,
>> should question both presumptions here -- not quibble over which default is
>> libertarian.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Dan
>>
>
> ?Company policy, not laws.  "enforce a default" offers no choice.  There
> is only one default offered in the 'opt out' setting:  'in'.  In the 'opt
> in' setting the default is 'out'.  bill w
>
>
> Then the 'libertarian' answer should be obvious: each firm should be
> permitted to set its default as it please -- as I mentioned above. Think of
> a similar case: should restaurants be allowed to charge before or after
> serving the meal? Let the restaurants decide. There is no other libertarian
> position here. It's kind of like asking if the libertarian position is to
> wear a pullover or a shirt. ;)
>
> Regards,
>
> Dan
>   Sample my Kindle books via:
> http://author.to/DanUst
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Sat Oct 22 21:28:11 2016
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2016 17:28:11 -0400
Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Nobody_can_say_we_weren=E2=80=99t_warned?=
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNQT_WzZMLLd0YkU6pcxjLtijsvycpHW5GirNT=XtKBYQg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv0J3J6dS0ep23w_+S1jW+SqDtSrm1p5D4SS8fshvZ=1sQ@mail.gmail.com>
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On Sat, Oct 22, 2016 at 4:50 PM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sat, Oct 22, 2016 at 1:41 PM, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> But let's suppose Trump wins
>>
>
> You're almost as bad as Trump in the debates when it comes to ignoring the
> question to talk about what you'd rather talk about.
>


?You asked what Trouble Trump could case if he looses and refused to accept
defeat and I told you what I imagined would happen if he did that now and
also what I imagine would happen if he did it 4 years from now after he
won. What? more do you want?

 John K Clark








>
>
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From spike66 at att.net  Sat Oct 22 21:19:17 2016
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2016 14:19:17 -0700
Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?deplorables=3A_was_RE=3A__Nobody_can_say_we_weren?=
	=?utf-8?b?4oCZdCB3YXJuZWQ=?=
Message-ID: <012101d22ca9$f2b9e550$d82daff0$@att.net>

 

 

>? On Behalf Of John Clark
Subject: Re: [ExI] Nobody can say we weren?t warned

 

 

>? if Trump wins I'm not going to put the Mr. What is Aleppo crowd in my blameless book?

 

I see.  Does it work the same if Clinton wins and it turns out badly?  

 

 

?

 

?>?Trump could do what he did in 2012 when the election didn't turn out as he wished, call for an insurrection:  ?

 

 

?"?

We should have a revolution in this country!

? ?

We can't let this happen. We should march on Washington and stop this travesty.

?"

 

 

Oh perish the thought how shall we cope woe is me oy vey.

 

I don?t see anything in that about taking up arms.  Do you?

 

John people march on Washington all the time.  We saw a million guys do it on 16 October 1995, or some indeterminate large number.  That too was called a revolution.  Life goes on.  

 

We have revolutions now too.  Bernie Sanders called for it.  His was defeated by cheating, but the result was left to stand.  Had there been no cheating, it isn?t at all clear to me that Bernie?s revolution would have failed.  We would be left with one mainstream candidate who we could at least hold a modicum of respect, even if we disagree with him and know his administration would be a flop before he was even sworn in.

 

>?once Trump gets into power how will we ever get him out? John K Clark?

 

Impeachment, if he does anything illegal.  Trump would be waaaay easier to impeach than Clinton.  Reasoning: she has a party behind her and Trump does not.  We have seen an impeachment vote split along party lines, in pretty recent memory with familiar names.

 

>? in 2012 people just ignored the bozo but there are a lot more deplorables in Trump's basket now in 2016?

 

Oy, the infamous basket of deplorables comment again.

 

OK, thought experiment, let us assume a basket of deporables exists.  Pretty easy to do: every society everywhere has deplorables.  Who goes in there?  Criminals.  (Any objections to labelling criminals as deplorable?  (We don?t need to make special subcategories for anything, such as tax cheats, because they are criminals (in ya go, sleazebags.)))  

 

How about? hmmm? racists.  OK that?s certainly deplorable, in they go.  (Note that others cannot assign the status to them any more than we can privately decide what is illegal and toss them in for being criminal.  Courts decide that.) 

 

How about abortion advocates and abortion adversaries?  Both?  Neither?

 

Those who advocate certain religions?  Which?  All religions?  Only violent ones?

 

Is Sam the video-guy deplorable?

 

Can one land in the basket for political views?  Who gets to decide which?  Do I?  Do you?  Do the major candidates?  Only the two parties? candidates?

 

Rich people?  (Does it matter how they got rich?)

 

Poor people?  (Does it matter how they got poor?)

 

Nazis?

 

Communists?

 

Socialists?

 

Capitalists?

 

Who goes in that basket?

 

Before we can give any credence to the whole notion of a basket of deplorables, we need to know who gets that label, how they got there, and so forth.  I only thought of a few criteria so far, but there is only one category above that is unambiguous, criminals.  This is defined (no secret code needed) as one who breaks the law, done.

 

We can even skate on traffic law (otherwise anyone who drives becomes deplorable eventually, even if by accident.)  Even the second category is tricky, because we have all been labeled racists by someone (not just the drivers here, all of us.)  I suppose we are left to relying on one?s own admission, and their willingness to climb into the basket voluntarily.  

 

Political views, well some are wearing that deplorable badge with pride now; I am seeing the T-shirts ?I was deplorable BEFORE it was cool? etc.  Who gets to decide which political views?

 

Question please: if we assume the existence of a basket of deplorables, who goes in there?  Why?

 

spike

 

 

 

 

 

 

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From atymes at gmail.com  Sat Oct 22 21:45:56 2016
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2016 14:45:56 -0700
Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Nobody_can_say_we_weren=E2=80=99t_warned?=
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On Sat, Oct 22, 2016 at 2:28 PM, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sat, Oct 22, 2016 at 4:50 PM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, Oct 22, 2016 at 1:41 PM, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> But let's suppose Trump wins
>>>
>>
>> You're almost as bad as Trump in the debates when it comes to ignoring
>> the question to talk about what you'd rather talk about.
>>
>
>
> ?You asked what Trouble Trump could case if he looses and refused to
> accept defeat and I told you what I imagined would happen if he did that
> now and also what I imagine would happen if he did it 4 years from now
> after he won. What? more do you want?
>

For you to lose that "also".

Your insistence on turning every thread of talk about the election to that
"also" is causing problems when we talk about other things.

For instance: what do we do if Trump loses this election and protests
enough to do damage?  This is more likely than if Trump wins.  However,
derailing every conversation into what happens if he wins, prevents
discussion of how we might counteract his damage if he loses.

Can you try not mentioning what happens if he wins when we are trying to
discuss what happens if he loses?

It's like the very first spam, those green card lawyers posting to
everything.  "Oh, well EVERY group might have immigrants so what we're
talking about is relevant to EVERY group." - this was incorrect, and
obviously so to most people.

"Oh, well EVERY conversation about Trump MUST keep in mind what happens if
he wins" - no, actually, especially when it's been well established what
happens if he wins, everyone involved is already thoroughly familiar with
the points you wish to bring up yet again, and we are talking about other
things.

Seriously.  We know Trump is bad; telling us again accomplishes nothing.
And some of us (more of us as we get closer to Nov. 8) have already cast
our votes; berating us accomplishes nothing (unless you think we can
somehow change our votes at this point).

So can we talk about a more likely threat, what happens if Trump loses but
contests the loss?
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From danust2012 at gmail.com  Sat Oct 22 21:56:53 2016
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2016 14:56:53 -0700
Subject: [ExI] transparency again
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYephBm65RX4z4=zt-pM3qZ9fAQ3qVQW-ddXSJo1Q5oMw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <003501d22c8e$5a6ae9e0$0f40bda0$@att.net>
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Message-ID: <8613EE8B-5C5C-40FD-90C8-9402760687B3@gmail.com>

On Oct 22, 2016, at 2:12 PM, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
> spike  Yes, to all of that. I am particularly interested in how the meaning of the word 'agenda' got changed to something suspicious.  Of course politicians did that for us by hinting about their opponents' evil plans.  bill w
> 
The word 'agenda' often carries a suspicious tinge to it -- and that happened long before this election season. For instance, if you accuse someone of having an agenda in some contexts, it's usually taken to mean that they're not interested in an open discussion -- just in getting their agenda pushed. Of course, usually this means, as Spike uses, a 'hidden agenda.' 

Anyhow, many terms have this kind of context switching meaning. If you call something a 'scheme,' for example, that can sometimes be neutral, but in the phrase 'money-making scheme' it's not.

And I don't think there was an innocent time when language was free of these ambiguities. Instead, there are just different sets of ambiguities, in my reckoning.

Regards,

Dan
  Sample my Kindle books via:
http://author.to/DanUst
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Sat Oct 22 22:32:03 2016
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2016 18:32:03 -0400
Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Nobody_can_say_we_weren=E2=80=99t_warned?=
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On Sat, Oct 22, 2016 at 4:32 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:



> ?> ?
> Everyone on this list has read posts by someone who suffered serious legal
> sanctions for a trumped-up charge where the evidence was purchased.  Anyone
> here could suffer the same fate, if speech really isn?t free.
>
>
?
Trump cares far more for the second amendment than
?for ?
the first, that's why speech will become far less free if he wins.
Currently there are no libel laws in the USA that work at the federal
level, they're all at the state level, but Trump wants to change that, he
wants to "open up the libel laws". He thinks if you say something bad about
me and I sue you the burden of proof isn't on me as it is now. he want
?s the burden?
 to be on you. I don't need to prove that my reputation was unjustly
damaged by your speech to win, you have to prove that it wasn't or you
lose.
?And it would make no difference if I'm a public or a private person, it
would make no difference even if I'm the president:    ?



*?"?We're going to open up those libel laws. So when The New York Times
writes a hit piece which is a total disgrace or when The Washington Post,
which is there for other reasons, writes a hit piece, we can sue them and
win money instead of having no chance of winning because they're totally
protected?. We're going to open up libel laws, and we're going to have
people sue you like you've never got sued before.?"*

This is why I've insulted Trump so often lately, I want to get it out of my
system now while I still can, if I do it after January 20 1917 I could end
up in one of Trump's concentration camps with the millions of other people
he wants to deport.


> ?> ?
> ps: there are no secret codes anywhere in the previous commentary, none.


?There are in mine. Most probably haven't been ?able to pick up on the
subtle hints in my posts but the truth is I really don't care for Donald
Trump very much.


?John K Clark?
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Sat Oct 22 23:10:23 2016
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2016 19:10:23 -0400
Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Nobody_can_say_we_weren=E2=80=99t_warned?=
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Message-ID: <CAJPayv0LK7Z3Scoi5pqvAO2ovvEvSM9PhBTxA6bksy1G-+N7Rg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Oct 22, 2016 at 5:45 PM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:


> ?> ?
> what do we do if Trump loses this election and protests enough to do
> damage?
>

?There are only 2 things that can be done:

1) Everyone who voted for Trump should find the courage to a
pologize to the nation and to
?basic ?
human decency
?.

2)?

?Refuse
 to do in 2016 what
?Trump?
 said everyone should do in in 2012 when the election didn't turn out as he
wished:

*?"?We should have a revolution in this country!? ?We can't let this
happen. We should march on Washington and stop this travesty.?"*


> ?>
> his is more likely than if Trump wins.
>

True, it's
?about 6 times ?more likely that Trump will lose, but like Russian Roulette
the situation is not linear, although only a sixth as likely if would be
about 6 million times as devastating if Trump beats the odds and wins.
That's why I wish to talk about both possibilities.

Can you try not mentioning what happens if he wins when we are trying to
> discuss what happens if he loses?
>

?I'm a libertarian (small l) so I think you should be free to discuss
anything you like. I figure Trump will either win or he won't and I wish to
examine both outcomes.  ?



> ?> ?
>  it's been well established what happens if he wins
>

?Apparently not, ?if it were you wouldn't have voted for Mr. What Is
Aleppo.


?> ?
> So can we talk about a more likely threat, what happens if Trump loses but
> contests the loss?
>

?You want me to give you a magical solution to this mess so we all come out
without a scratch smelling like a rose, well I'm sorry I don't have one.
All I can say is the problems we will have on November 9 if Trump loses
will be bad but they will be trivial compared with the problems we will
have in 4 years if Trump wins. And if Trump wins you should hang your head
in shame.

  John K Clark  ?
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From spike66 at att.net  Sat Oct 22 22:58:25 2016
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2016 15:58:25 -0700
Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Nobody_can_say_we_weren=E2=80=99t_warned?=
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNQT_WzZMLLd0YkU6pcxjLtijsvycpHW5GirNT=XtKBYQg@mail.gmail.com>
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 tKBYQg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <01a201d22cb7$cc3db880$64b92980$@att.net>

 

 

>?] On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes



>?Spike, are you empowered as moderator to keep people on the question when they keep running away from it despite being asked to focus on and answer the question?

 

 

Well, perhaps, but as a libertarian I disdain the notion of being empowered.

 

I see plenty of advantages in our quadrennial civics lesson Americans are compelled to undergo, and the freeform discussions that tend to cluster around those periods of symbolic riot.  My request is that we clearly label these discussions, for it doesn?t apply to a lot of us here.  I can imagine it would be interesting to expatriates and world citizens, in the sense of watching two lions fighting at a near distance or watching a bubbling volcano: dangerous but interesting.

 

We have plenty of reasons to be optimistic.  In times past, times still more benighted than the present, there were few instances of symbolic chaos and riot; they were far too literal.  Plenty of the Monte Python hilarity revolved around the insanity of battling knights, which involved actual death and dismemberment.

 

I personally do not consider the risk of nuclear warfare high even now, but I do worry about conventional warfare a lot.  That feels worse now than in the past 30 yrs.

 

There are no rules against annoying our own friends.  I have seen some personal attack and I do urge us all to eschew it, but what I have seen is mostly fair game.  

 

Play ball!

 

spike

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From hibbert at mydruthers.com  Sat Oct 22 23:26:22 2016
From: hibbert at mydruthers.com (Chris Hibbert)
Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2016 16:26:22 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Nobody can say we weren't warned
Message-ID: <00bfeee6-852c-0d50-e271-ed63c5bdfc47@mydruthers.com>

> ?But that's not the chose you've been given, we both know Gary Johnson
> will never be president. The choose you've been given is between somebody
> who wants to torture people and somebody who doesn't, between somebody who
> wants to order the military to murder the children of people he does't like
> and somebody who doesn't, between somebody who doesn't know why we don't
> use nuclear weapons and somebody who does know, between somebody who won't
> obey the order the American people give on November 8 and somebody who will
> obey it even if she doesn't like it. I know which side of history I want to
> be on.

I don't know what country you're living in, but *I* don't get to choose 
who'll be the actual president. I get to cast a ballot, and I get to 
talk about the possible choices with people I meet and on-line.

On my ballot, I can vote for the candidate that will carry my state, the 
other candidate whose votes will be reported everywhere, or one of two 
other candidates whose votes will be reported a little less frequently. 
I can write in a name that will be completely be ignored, or I can not 
vote in a variety of ways. On-line, I can advocate for policies I agree 
with and politicians who represent positions roughly in alignment with 
my views, or I could advocate for any of several lesser evils.

In the ballot booth, I don't see any advantages for voting for any 
candidates who don't at least roughly represent my views. The raw 
numbers are always treated as support by politicians and pundits. A vote 
for clinton is not read as a vote to keep the country from going to the 
dogs, it's read as agreement with her policies on health care, free 
trade, international interventions, minimum wages, etc. Why would I add 
a single molecule to that side of the scale? The same goes for trump. At 
least the day after the election, I'll be able to say "more people voted 
for a socially liberal and economically conservative than ever before". 
Or at least that I contributed to whatever total there was.

In public advocacy, you can think there's some benefit from keeping one 
madman out of the white house, but I'm pretty much as worried about a 
self-aggrandizing power-at-any-cost madwoman who wants to double down on 
all the mistakes that have been made by the last few administrations. If 
I'm going to talk about the consequences a presidential choice can have, 
I want to argue for decriminalizing non-violent and economically product 
behavior, staying out of other countries, and other values that liberals 
and conservatives used to agree with libertarians about.

Chris
  --
Rationality is about drawing correct inferences from limited,
confusing, contradictory, or maliciously doctored facts.
   -- Scott Alexander

Chris Hibbert
hibbert at mydruthers.com
Blog:   http://www.pancrit.org
http://mydruthers.com


From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sat Oct 22 23:30:36 2016
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2016 18:30:36 -0500
Subject: [ExI]
	=?utf-8?q?deplorables=3A_was_RE=3A_Nobody_can_say_we_weren?=
	=?utf-8?b?4oCZdCB3YXJuZWQ=?=
In-Reply-To: <012101d22ca9$f2b9e550$d82daff0$@att.net>
References: <012101d22ca9$f2b9e550$d82daff0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZPe+DAtVXW4zjNSHbVK0febCKsq6o7M+tmW=FPDNo9TA@mail.gmail.com>

OK, thought experiment, let us assume a basket of deporables exists.
Pretty easy to do: every society everywhere has deplorables.  Who goes in
there?  Criminals.  (Any objections to labelling criminals as deplorable?
 spike

Are we assuming just for the POTUS?  If so, are we counting traffic
tickets?  Insider trading?  What?

If not, then for what?  Lesser offices down to dogcatcher?  I would not
eliminate certain criminals for certain jobs.  How about those who were
pardoned?  Or DUI?  Hell, once I spend the night in jail because of an
alcohol test.  Am I deplorable?   I think there needs to be some balance
here, and maybe some forgiveness for some crimes.

Once you create a category and start putting some people in it, there may
be a problem stopping, and maybe a problem expanding the criteria, as Spike
seems to suggest.

bill w

On Sat, Oct 22, 2016 at 4:19 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *>?* *On Behalf Of *John Clark
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Nobody can say we weren?t warned
>
>
>
>
>
> >? if Trump wins I'm not going to put the Mr. What is Aleppo crowd in my
> blameless book?
>
>
>
> I see.  Does it work the same if Clinton wins and it turns out badly?
>
>
>
>
>
> ?
>
>
>
> ?>?Trump could do what he did in 2012 when the election didn't turn out as
> he wished, call for an insurrection:  ?
>
>
>
>
>
> *?"?*
>
> *We should have a revolution in this country!*
>
> *? ?*
>
> *We can't let this happen. We should march on Washington and stop this
> travesty.*
>
> *?"*
>
>
>
>
>
> Oh perish the thought how shall we cope woe is me oy vey.
>
>
>
> I don?t see anything in that about taking up arms.  Do you?
>
>
>
> John people march on Washington all the time.  We saw a million guys do it
> on 16 October 1995, or some indeterminate large number.  That too was
> called a revolution.  Life goes on.
>
>
>
> We have revolutions now too.  Bernie Sanders called for it.  His was
> defeated by cheating, but the result was left to stand.  Had there been no
> cheating, it isn?t at all clear to me that Bernie?s revolution would have
> failed.  We would be left with one mainstream candidate who we could at
> least hold a modicum of respect, even if we disagree with him and know his
> administration would be a flop before he was even sworn in.
>
>
>
> >?once Trump gets into power how will we ever get him out? John K Clark?
>
>
>
> Impeachment, if he does anything illegal.  Trump would be waaaay easier to
> impeach than Clinton.  Reasoning: she has a party behind her and Trump does
> not.  We have seen an impeachment vote split along party lines, in pretty
> recent memory with familiar names.
>
>
>
> >? in 2012 people just ignored the bozo but there are a lot more
> deplorables in Trump's basket now in 2016?
>
>
>
> Oy, the infamous basket of deplorables comment again.
>
>
>
> OK, thought experiment, let us assume a basket of deporables exists.
> Pretty easy to do: every society everywhere has deplorables.  Who goes in
> there?  Criminals.  (Any objections to labelling criminals as deplorable?
> (We don?t need to make special subcategories for anything, such as tax
> cheats, because they are criminals (in ya go, sleazebags.)))
>
>
>
> How about? hmmm? racists.  OK that?s certainly deplorable, in they go.
> (Note that others cannot assign the status to them any more than we can
> privately decide what is illegal and toss them in for being criminal.
> Courts decide that.)
>
>
>
> How about abortion advocates and abortion adversaries?  Both?  Neither?
>
>
>
> Those who advocate certain religions?  Which?  All religions?  Only
> violent ones?
>
>
>
> Is Sam the video-guy deplorable?
>
>
>
> Can one land in the basket for political views?  Who gets to decide
> which?  Do I?  Do you?  Do the major candidates?  Only the two parties?
> candidates?
>
>
>
> Rich people?  (Does it matter how they got rich?)
>
>
>
> Poor people?  (Does it matter how they got poor?)
>
>
>
> Nazis?
>
>
>
> Communists?
>
>
>
> Socialists?
>
>
>
> Capitalists?
>
>
>
> Who goes in that basket?
>
>
>
> Before we can give any credence to the whole notion of a basket of
> deplorables, we need to know who gets that label, how they got there, and
> so forth.  I only thought of a few criteria so far, but there is only one
> category above that is unambiguous, criminals.  This is defined (no secret
> code needed) as one who breaks the law, done.
>
>
>
> We can even skate on traffic law (otherwise anyone who drives becomes
> deplorable eventually, even if by accident.)  Even the second category is
> tricky, because we have all been labeled racists by someone (not just the
> drivers here, all of us.)  I suppose we are left to relying on one?s own
> admission, and their willingness to climb into the basket voluntarily.
>
>
>
> Political views, well some are wearing that deplorable badge with pride
> now; I am seeing the T-shirts ?I was deplorable BEFORE it was cool? etc.
> Who gets to decide which political views?
>
>
>
> Question please: if we assume the existence of a basket of deplorables,
> who goes in there?  Why?
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sat Oct 22 23:40:37 2016
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2016 18:40:37 -0500
Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Nobody_can_say_we_weren=E2=80=99t_warned?=
In-Reply-To: <01a201d22cb7$cc3db880$64b92980$@att.net>
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Message-ID: <CAO+xQEboE1-jYBYGBHRjEmuZNeoB20vpeRf1KYdXo-_gQOt89A@mail.gmail.com>

Trump wants to change that, he wants to "open up the libel laws". He thinks
if you say something bad about me and I sue you the burden of proof isn't
on me as it is now. he want
?s the burden?
 to be on you.  john

This is, in fact, the way it is in Britain and has been for centuries.  I
wonder how the Brits feel.  Anders?

bill w

On Sat, Oct 22, 2016 at 5:58 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *>?*] *On Behalf Of *Adrian Tymes
>
> >?Spike, are you empowered as moderator to keep people on the question
> when they keep running away from it despite being asked to focus on and
> answer the question?
>
>
>
>
>
> Well, perhaps, but as a libertarian I disdain the notion of being
> empowered.
>
>
>
> I see plenty of advantages in our quadrennial civics lesson Americans are
> compelled to undergo, and the freeform discussions that tend to cluster
> around those periods of symbolic riot.  My request is that we clearly label
> these discussions, for it doesn?t apply to a lot of us here.  I can imagine
> it would be interesting to expatriates and world citizens, in the sense of
> watching two lions fighting at a near distance or watching a bubbling
> volcano: dangerous but interesting.
>
>
>
> We have plenty of reasons to be optimistic.  In times past, times still
> more benighted than the present, there were few instances of symbolic chaos
> and riot; they were far too literal.  Plenty of the Monte Python hilarity
> revolved around the insanity of battling knights, which involved actual
> death and dismemberment.
>
>
>
> I personally do not consider the risk of nuclear warfare high even now,
> but I do worry about conventional warfare a lot.  That feels worse now than
> in the past 30 yrs.
>
>
>
> There are no rules against annoying our own friends.  I have seen some
> personal attack and I do urge us all to eschew it, but what I have seen is
> mostly fair game.
>
>
>
> Play ball!
>
>
>
> spike
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From spike66 at att.net  Sat Oct 22 23:53:24 2016
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2016 16:53:24 -0700
Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Nobody_can_say_we_weren=E2=80=99t_warned?=
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv3ERc22aKNi55ECkMHp7Zbk-NJNyWxjhuJPA3NsOsnvQQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv0J3J6dS0ep23w_+S1jW+SqDtSrm1p5D4SS8fshvZ=1sQ@mail.gmail.com>
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 <00cb01d22ca3$66118000$32348000$@att.net>
 <CAJPayv3ERc22aKNi55ECkMHp7Zbk-NJNyWxjhuJPA3NsOsnvQQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <01e301d22cbf$7aadc570$70095050$@att.net>

 

 

From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of John Clark
Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2016 3:32 PM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: Re: [ExI] Nobody can say we weren?t warned

 

 

On Sat, Oct 22, 2016 at 4:32 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net <mailto:spike66 at att.net> > wrote:

 

?> ?>?Anyone here could suffer the same fate, if speech really isn?t free.

 

?

>?Trump cares far more for the second amendment than for ?the first, that's why speech will become far less free if he wins. ?

 

 

Aren?t you glad presidents don?t make law?  So am I.  Our system is set up that way intentionally.  Looooong live the beloved Constitution, after we raise it from the dead.

 

 

>?? Most probably haven't been ?able to pick up on the subtle hints in my posts but the truth is I really don't care for Donald Trump very much?John K Clark?

 

Subtle though they were, I did detect a vague hint of mild disapproval if I read carefully.

 

Your post brings up a good point however.  The US constitution was set up with the government having enumerated powers.  Over time that has become accumulated powers.  If anything good comes of this choice between two (borrowing a term) deplorables, it is that congress may pull out a dusty unused copy of the COTUS, read article 1, section 8, remind themselves it is their job as elected officials to make government accumulated powers return to enumerated powers.

 

I would suggest starting with a big dangerous change that happened in our lifetimes for those of us who are middle aged-er than average: the very dangerous precedent of a POTUS having the authority to commit troops anywhere without congressional declaration of war.  Congress is legally in charge of that, not POTUS.

 

If you Google around, you may be able to find video of Franklin Roosevelt haranguing, shrieking at congress to ACT!  NOW!  in committing troops to the war in Europe.  They wouldn?t do it and he had not the authority.  Here was a popular president having already been elected thrice, but he could not persuade congress to come to the assistance of our longtime ally England.  Roosevelt was honorable, a law and order guy.

 

A mere five years later, a US president committed troops to Korea as ?military advisers.?  Of course they soon found themselves ?advising? North Korean troops to perish, and North Korean troops were offering similar advice to American advisors.  A decade later, another POTUS sent American troops into harm?s way, making little effort to call them advisors.  In both cases, there was no congressional declaration of war.  Bushes 41 and 43 at least requested congressional approval to commit troops to Iraq in 1991 and 2003, which was granted by the legislators on both occasions.

 

Having nuclear missiles under the dual control of the POTUS and Secretary of Defense appears illegal to me: both are executive branch employees, when it should be the legislature controlling those.  Firing nukes is a declaration of war, so it is a defacto congressional duty.

 

I understand the reasoning: back in the day when nuke missiles were developed, they needed to be ready to fire on short notice in the event of a surprise attack by those sneaky commies.  In those days, phones had wires and no one carried them on their person.  Back then, we had no early warning systems.  But now is not then.  Now we can put that authority back where it legally resides.  Then we need not worry if our president wanted to send troops to Syria (she wouldn?t have the authority) or declare and enforce a no-fly zone (congress would need to do that (but this would be a declaration of war (against not only Syria but also their allies the commies (which would be a bad thing (and I trust congress way more than either of these two front runners to eschew starting World War 3 when we have nothing to gain and everything to lose.)))))

 

If we returned to enumerated powers from accumulated powers, we wouldn?t care if the POTUS didn?t know what was Aleppo.  Understatement, we would prefer a POTUS who never heard of Aleppo.  If elected, he would get orders from congress that they had declared war.  Collective sanity and collective honesty would prevail.  

 

In the event of such a declaration, POTUS would then look it up on Google and decide how to execute the war.  I see no problem with that.  In that scenario, the POTUS would be mostly freed to take care of matters POTUS should be tending, such as a runaway federal budget deficit.  POTUS is an executive; the legislature is made up of lawmakers.  Executives deal with how to do the job on a budget.

 

Perhaps we need to stop electing lawyers to be chief executive and elect actual executives to be chief executive.

 

spike

 

 

 

 

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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Sun Oct 23 01:24:01 2016
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2016 21:24:01 -0400
Subject: [ExI]
	=?utf-8?q?deplorables=3A_was_RE=3A_Nobody_can_say_we_weren?=
	=?utf-8?b?4oCZdCB3YXJuZWQ=?=
In-Reply-To: <012101d22ca9$f2b9e550$d82daff0$@att.net>
References: <012101d22ca9$f2b9e550$d82daff0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv2-BTj5_bZnN8t2=pwTUktCtBHVqHcHzYJktXWaJrnuYQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Oct 22, 2016 at 5:19 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:


> ?>?
>> >? if Trump wins I'm not going to put the Mr. What is Aleppo crowd in my
>> blameless book?
>
>

?> ?
> I see.  Does it work the same if Clinton wins and it turns out badly?


?No because if ?Clinton's presidency goes south that outcome was not
obvious on November 8 2016, but Trump might as well have the word
"catastrophe" tattooed on his forehead. Torturing people, murdering the
children of people you don't like and ignoring elections results just isn't
morally comparable to a bad E-mail server.



> *??>> ?*"
>> *We should have a revolution in this country!? ?We can't let this happen.
>> We should march on Washington and stop this travesty."*
>
> ?>
> I don?t see anything in that about taking up arms.  Do you?
>
> ?Come on Spike, imagine what you's say if Romney had won in 2012 and
Hillary issued the above proclamation
!
 Have a revolution, march on Washington the day after election day to "stop
this travesty". And by "this" he meant reverse the election results of the
previous day.   ?



> >
>> ?>?
>> ?once Trump gets into power how will we ever get him out?
>
>
> ?> ?
> Impeachment, if he does anything illegal.
>

?What good would that do? I can see Trump paraphrasing Stalin (or was it
Andrew Jackson?)
and saying "congress has made their decision, now let them enforce it".
 I keep telling you, the Constipation is a piece of paper not a law of
physics, it only has power if people agree it has power, and just a few
days ago somebody who has one chance in 6 in being the top constitutional
officer made it clear he sees no reason to obey the constitution. And if he
thinks he can get away with that now imagine what he will be like after
being commander in chief for 4 years.    ?



> ?> ?
> Trump would be waaaay easier to impeach than Clinton.
>
>
If ?Clinton is impeached and convicted she will go because she respects the
constitution, but if Trump is impeached and convicted I don't think he's
going anywhere, and just like what he wants to do with Hillary he will
"lock up" anyone in congress who voted for his impeachment. Who's going to
stop him??



> > Reasoning: she has a party behind her and Trump does not.


?It's not important what the Republicans think of Trump today, the
important thing is what the army will think about Trump after 4 years of
him promoting the people he likes.?



> >? in 2012 people just ignored the bozo but there are a lot more
>> deplorables in Trump's basket now in 2016?
>
>
>
> ?> ?
> Oy, the infamous basket of deplorables comment again.
>

?
Yep.
? P
eople say they want politicians to be straight shooters and tell it like it
is, but they don't really want that at all. Hillary told the truth (except
she was being a bit kind when she said only half of T
?r?
ump supporters were deplorable
?) and the voters punished her for it. If telling the truth got votes then
politicians would tell the truth, but it doesn't so they don't. ?



> ?> ?
> Who goes in that basket?


?People who are fools and or sociopaths, aka Trump supporters. ?



> ?> ?
> I am seeing the T-shirts ?I was deplorable BEFORE it was cool?



?I have a hunch "I'm ?
such a nasty woman
?" T-shirts are selling better.?


John K Clark
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From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Sun Oct 23 02:01:03 2016
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2016 22:01:03 -0400
Subject: [ExI]
	=?utf-8?q?deplorables=3A_was_RE=3A_Nobody_can_say_we_weren?=
	=?utf-8?b?4oCZdCB3YXJuZWQ=?=
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv2-BTj5_bZnN8t2=pwTUktCtBHVqHcHzYJktXWaJrnuYQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <012101d22ca9$f2b9e550$d82daff0$@att.net>
 <CAJPayv2-BTj5_bZnN8t2=pwTUktCtBHVqHcHzYJktXWaJrnuYQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAAc1gFjJiHn9osF_3UeKvO3+mENKO9_XXTsLOkGrPdC5uLsBWw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Oct 22, 2016 at 9:24 PM, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> ?I have a hunch "I'm ?
> such a nasty woman
> ?" T-shirts are selling better.?
>

### Only until the bints figure out they turn the cool guys off.

Rafa?
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From atymes at gmail.com  Sun Oct 23 02:20:24 2016
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2016 19:20:24 -0700
Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Nobody_can_say_we_weren=E2=80=99t_warned?=
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv0LK7Z3Scoi5pqvAO2ovvEvSM9PhBTxA6bksy1G-+N7Rg@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CALAdGNQLaoXz5wHxOX4rFwdMQmDv049-1=cCVEXTsjiePZMzWw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Oct 22, 2016 at 4:10 PM, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

> ?> ?
>>  it's been well established what happens if he wins
>>
>
> ?Apparently not, ?if it were you wouldn't have voted for Mr. What Is
> Aleppo.
>
>

Spike, has John blatantly and repeatedly insulted list members with this
utter and thoroughly disproven nonsense enough to ban him until after
November 8 yet?

This goes beyond politics.  He presumes to tell me what I think, and
refuses all explanations as to why I both agree that Trump is bad and would
prefer to vote against Hillary anyway - and I am not the only one.
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Sun Oct 23 02:53:20 2016
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2016 22:53:20 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Trump's Gettysburg address
Message-ID: <CAJPayv2sOKaRswvDYz7MKR_1Hgge+12sAz0RCJ0AtRnu0vKq+A@mail.gmail.com>

Trump
?
gave a speech in
?
Gettysburg Pa today,
?
he promised to "heal the divisions?
?
in
?
 the country as President Lincoln tried
?
to do
?m?
ore than a century ago, and then he immediately switched gears and vowed to
sue the women who accused him of aggressive sexual
?
behavior
?
as soon as the election is over. That should be interesting, especially if
he wins
? the election?
. By the way 2 more women came forward today, that brings the total up to
11 by my count.

  John K Clark
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From spike66 at att.net  Sun Oct 23 03:09:42 2016
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2016 20:09:42 -0700
Subject: [ExI]
	=?utf-8?q?deplorables=3A_was_RE=3A_Nobody_can_say_we_weren?=
	=?utf-8?b?4oCZdCB3YXJuZWQ=?=
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv2-BTj5_bZnN8t2=pwTUktCtBHVqHcHzYJktXWaJrnuYQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <012101d22ca9$f2b9e550$d82daff0$@att.net>
 <CAJPayv2-BTj5_bZnN8t2=pwTUktCtBHVqHcHzYJktXWaJrnuYQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00a501d22cda$e663f990$b32becb0$@att.net>

 

 

From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of John Clark
Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2016 6:24 PM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: Re: [ExI] deplorables: was RE: Nobody can say we weren?t warned

 

On Sat, Oct 22, 2016 at 5:19 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net <mailto:spike66 at att.net> > wrote:

  

??

>>>? if Trump wins I'm not going to put the Mr. What is Aleppo crowd in my blameless book?

 

?> >?I see.  Does it work the same if Clinton wins and it turns out badly?

 

?>?No because if ?Clinton's presidency goes south that outcome was not obvious on November 8 2016?

 

Indeed?  To whom?  It has been obvious to me since 11 September 2012.  It has become steadily more obvious ever since.

 

 

?>?Come on Spike, imagine what you's say if Romney had won in 2012 and Hillary issued the above proclamation

!...

 

Nothing.  Had Romney won, Clinton and Obama?s comments would be irrelevant.  They may organize a protest if they wish; I do not object to a protest.

 

>? And by "this" he meant reverse the election results of the previous day?

 

A march on Washington would not reverse any election results.

 

 

?> ?>?Impeachment, if he does anything illegal. 

 

?>?What good would that do? I can see Trump paraphrasing Stalin (or was it Andrew Jackson?) 

and saying "congress has made their decision, now let them enforce it"?

 

Andrew Jackson was not impeached, just slapped down.

 

Once he is impeached, a new president (the former VP) is sworn in by the Chief Justice of the SCOTUS.  Then the military looks to him or her for orders.  If Trump is impeached and convicted, his orders cannot be legally carried out.  I would bet on the military not following him into a coup attempt.  We are too well-armed.

 

>? I keep telling you, the Constipation is a piece of paper not a law of physics, it only has power if people agree it has power?

 

People do.  Military officers swear to uphold the constitution.  I am betting that they will hold to their vows.  The military guys I have known personally are law and order types.  They take this oath:

 

"I, _____, do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."

 

If a POTUS is impeached and convicted, his or her VP is immediately sworn in by the Chief Justice and becomes the new POTUS.  The vows taken by every military officer now bear true faith and allegiance to carry out the orders of the new POTUS.  The Constitution is more than a piece of paper; it?s the law.

 

 

>? and just a few days ago somebody who has one chance in 6 in being the top constitutional officer made it clear he sees no reason to obey the constitution?

 

He hasn?t taken the vow yet.  Al Gore had taken the vow when he contested the 2000 election, and was at that time the VP.  Even then, I don?t see in the constitution a word about the losing candidate respecting the outcome of the election.  Where is it?  I don?t fault Gore for protesting the election either.  That 2000 incident is why I go on and on about those voting machines.  If there is no way to recount the vote, those things are dangerous.  Think about it: what if we do come down to one state again (very plausible outcome) and there is a big discrepancy between the paper vote and the machine vote?  Then what?

 

 

?> ?>?Trump would be waaaay easier to impeach than Clinton. 

 

>?If ?Clinton is impeached and convicted she will go because she respects the constitution?

 

Heh.  What about that part about upholding law?  How about putting all that sensitive information on an unsecured server?  Destroying evidence that had been subpoenaed?  I see no respect for law there.

 

 

>?but if Trump is impeached and convicted I don't think he's going anywhere?

 

He wouldn?t need to go anywhere to have his VP sworn in as the new POTUS.  He can?t maintain the office by refusing to vacate it.

 

>? just like what he wants to do with Hillary he will "lock up" anyone in congress who voted for his impeachment. Who's going to stop him?

 

He has to have a charge to have anyone locked up.  What he wants to do is irrelevant, and the current head of the FBI still has nearly 7 years left in his term.  At the advanced stage of senility indicated in her sworn testimony on 13 October 2016, it isn?t at all clear she will still be living when Director Comey is replaced in the fall of 2023.  I suspect he has her back until then.  Alzheimer?s (if that is what caused all those ?does not recall? answers in that testimony) advances from that stage to death in about 2 to 5 years usually.

 

POTUS cannot wave a magic wand and create an instant dictatorship.  Were that possible, it would have been done a long time ago.  These two are not the first power-grabbers going for that office; the tradition goes way back.  Andrew Jackson comes to mind.  Roosevelt (both, particularly the second one) Nixon was one, both Truman and Kennedy committed American troops abroad without consent of congress.  The War Powers Act had to be written to prevent runaway power grabs by a POTUS declaring a war then assuming powers during wartime.  Our system really will prevent this.  It will work even better now that we are alert and watching for it.  I predict either of these front runners will be frustrated at all the things they cannot do as president.

 

?

>?It's not important what the Republicans think of Trump today, the important thing is what the army will think about Trump after 4 years of him promoting the people he likes.

 

I trust the military to uphold the constitution way more than I trust either of these front runners.  John do you personally know any military officers, present or retired?  You should talk to them, share your concerns.  You might worry a lot less if you listen to their take on it.  Military guys are law and order types.  They wouldn?t get very far if they were not.

 

>?Yep.  People say they want politicians to be straight shooters and tell it like it is, but they don't really want that at all?

 

I really want that.

 

>?Hillary told the truth?

 

Indeed?  I shall alert the media.  

 

John was she telling the truth when she testified last week she cannot recall, twenty times?  And we jump on Johnson for not recalling Aleppo once?  Do you agree she does not recall the material in her lectures on digital security to the State Department she made in 2011 but did recall details of the 123 Deal in the spring of 2013 after leaving office, but doesn?t recall how to reconcile her congressional testimony to her FBI testimony now?  Does that make sense to you?

 

>? (except she was being a bit kind when she said only half of Tr?ump supporters were deplorable)

 

So I ask again, who goes in that basket?

 

Once we agree on who goes in that basket of deplorables, we can try to assess what percentage of people in that basket support which candidate.  

 

>?and the voters punished her for it. If telling the truth got votes then politicians would tell the truth, but it doesn't so they don't?

 

John that is a rather remarkable admission. ?

  

 

?> ?>?Who goes in that basket?

 

?>?People who are fools and or sociopaths, aka Trump supporters.  John K Clark

 

 

OK then, fools and sociopaths go into the basket of deplorables.  These are not the criteria suggested by the originator of the term, but let us run with it.  Are you then making the case that all fools and sociopaths are Trump supporters?  All fools and sociopaths?  Are there no fools and sociopaths who support other candidates?  What percentage of fools and sociopaths support other candidates would you estimate?  Consider for instance those videos just released by James O?Keefe.  The guys organizing violence at Trump rallies, would those guys fall into the deplorable basket, being a fool and/or sociopath?  How about those carrying out the acts of violence?  Fools?  Sociopaths?  Deplorables?  Who do you suppose they support?

 

spike

?

 

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From spike66 at att.net  Sun Oct 23 03:21:40 2016
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2016 20:21:40 -0700
Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Nobody_can_say_we_weren=E2=80=99t_warned?=
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNQLaoXz5wHxOX4rFwdMQmDv049-1=cCVEXTsjiePZMzWw@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <00ac01d22cdc$9277d5c0$b7678140$@att.net>

 

 

 

 

From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes
Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2016 7:20 PM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: Re: [ExI] Nobody can say we weren?t warned

 

On Sat, Oct 22, 2016 at 4:10 PM, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com <mailto:johnkclark at gmail.com> > wrote:

?> ?

 it's been well established what happens if he wins

 

?Apparently not, ?if it were you wouldn't have voted for Mr. What Is Aleppo. 

 


Spike, has John blatantly and repeatedly insulted list members with this utter and thoroughly disproven nonsense enough to ban him until after November 8 yet?

This goes beyond politics.  He presumes to tell me what I think, and refuses all explanations as to why I both agree that Trump is bad and would prefer to vote against Hillary anyway - and I am not the only one.

 

 

 

 

 

Hi Adrian,

 

I must disqualify myself from making that call, being as I myself have engaged in the distasteful discussion, unadvisedly perhaps.

 

Should another volunteer to be temporary moderator, I volunteer to step aside for the next three weeks and resume duties if called upon to do so at the end of that time on 9 November, and speak of the matter no more.

 

I feel your pain.  

 

Oh wait, retract, that phrase has already been spoiled?  {8^D 

 

I urge forbearance, restraint, tolerance and endurance: let us wait it out.  We are all in this together; this too soon shall pass.  A really good option is to ignore the entire distasteful thread.  (? the humble omnipotent moderator commented, fully recognizing the irony in that he himself has failed repeatedly to heed his own advice?)

 

spike

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From anders at aleph.se  Fri Oct 21 09:37:06 2016
From: anders at aleph.se (Anders)
Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2016 10:37:06 +0100
Subject: [ExI] The Unsong
In-Reply-To: <CAAc1gFg0fWfcm+xbOB3fxMZ6O16dqTkS6HgFDj+9foYnwLnGBA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAc1gFg0fWfcm+xbOB3fxMZ6O16dqTkS6HgFDj+9foYnwLnGBA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <490b9f46-09c2-94a0-f693-c3d08efe5475@aleph.se>

On 2016-10-21 05:05, Rafal Smigrodzki wrote:
>
> ### And Now For Something Completely Different - I just noticed you 
> are reading and commenting on the Unsong!
>
> A most uproariously complex and multi-level intellectually 
> entertaining prose, shading into poetry, isn't it? And morally 
> uplifting to boot!

The URL is http://unsongbook.com/

Basically, this is kabbalist science fiction/satire/alternate history, 
with people pirating Names of God from the big theonomics corporations, 
accidental crashes of the virtual machine the universe runs on, puns 
being serious business (since they represent hidden correspondences in 
the universe), a very *different* War on Drugs and end of the Nixon 
administration. Very fun. It inspired me to do some multidimensional 
stochastic geometry: http://aleph.se/andart2/math/uriels-stacking-problem/

Unsong also leads to an interesting philosophical question for 
transhumanism: suppose we find that our current ontology of the world is 
pretty wrong - maybe magic actually exists. It seems the basic 
transhumanist approach still makes sense: figure out the techniques that 
can enhance our abilities and long-term future, and use them even if 
they are now magic spells, holy names or exploit code for reality. So is 
transhumanism independent of the nature of the world? Would 
transhumanist ideas make sense in any universe, despite the very 
different tools, risks and opportunities?

I think this actually may be the case if we say transhumanism is about 
maximizing value of a certain kind. Obviously we have possible worlds 
with no observers or no way of increasing value, but leaving those aside 
we may say that transhumanism is about observer/actors of value changing 
themselves to achieve greater value.

But it is also possible to have possible worlds where the structure of 
*value* is different from what we think is the case in our world. For 
example, a theocentric world where one entity is the sole arbiter and 
supplier of value would make transhumanism all about changing or acting 
in such a way that the entity assigns more value to the being changing. 
One can also make sneaky possible worlds where change is against value 
(essentially worlds where bioconservative notions are morally true). 
Now, many philosophers would cheerfully argue that many of these worlds 
are not possible worlds because they are inconsistent in various ways 
and hence cannot exist. Some philosophers may even argue that there may 
be only one structure of value that is consistent, so if we were to find 
it we would have "solved" ethics. Maybe.

But one interesting result of this ramble is that if we buy this version 
of transhumanism as observers/actors changing to increase their value 
(to themselves or in some global sense) and look at a world where 
transhumanism is possible to do, then different states of that world 
must have different value. That means that there has to be relatively 
low-value states. Hence transhumanism *requires* the existence of evil, 
or at least not-quite-as-good states.

Not quite an answer to the theodice problem (unless you are a religious 
transhumanist or a process theologician), but definitely worth 
pondering. Omega point-like cosmologies that produce a godlike entity of 
high value through deliberate actions of agents also seem to require bad 
states.




-- 
Dr Anders Sandberg
Future of Humanity Institute
Oxford Martin School
Oxford University

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From legionara at openmailbox.org  Sun Oct 23 12:26:27 2016
From: legionara at openmailbox.org (Legionara)
Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2016 08:26:27 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Nobody can say we weren't warned
In-Reply-To: <349f4add-b6fb-101b-6105-bdc11bc10a77@mydruthers.com>
References: <349f4add-b6fb-101b-6105-bdc11bc10a77@mydruthers.com>
Message-ID: <20161023082627.000009df.legionara@openmailbox.org>

It's too bad Johnson's brain is fried from all the pot. How did we get
from Paul to this?

On Sat, 22 Oct 2016 11:35:39 -0700
Chris Hibbert <hibbert at mydruthers.com> wrote:

> John Clark blathered:
> > If [... Trump ...]  why the hell did you vote for Mr. What Is
> > Aleppo?  
> 
> I'd rather have a president who has a policy position on the Middle
> East that doesn't call for military intervention at every turn than
> someone who's carefully tracking the details of which faction is
> currently in control of which region. There are more important things
> to get right.
> 
> My vote isn't going to change the outcome, so arguing that I *must*
> vote for one with a certifiable chance of winning doesn't carry water
> with me. AFAICT, the main consequences of my actions are results of my
> speaking to acquaintances about what I believe. The main effect of my
> vote is in the vote totals the day after the election. One more vote
> for a demopublican is completely unnoticeable (no politician ever read
> votes in his/her column as a vote against the other candidate), while
> another vote for a third party candidate who broadly represents my
> views is worth the time it takes.
> 
> > if [... Trump ...] And yet you voted for Mr. I Can't Name A Single
> > Foreign Leader because you wanted to make a principled stand.  
> 
> The question wasn't "Can you name a foreign leader?", it was "Please
> name a foreign leader you respect", and as Gary Johnson pointed out,
> if anyone you name has any warts, those become your warts. These days,
> it isn't safe for a politician to profess respect for Thomas Jefferson
> or George Washington. Do you think Bishop Tutu is safe? Maggie
> Thatcher?
> 
> Can you name a foreign leader that you wouldn't be pilloried for in
> some circles? I'd have expressed limited respect for some things that
> Thatcher or Mandela did, and point out that Germany's Merkel has been
> welcoming to refugees.
> 
> 
> And John, as far as your subject line goes, I've been warned about the
> dangers of voting for Johnson, Trump, Clinton, of staying home, and
> many other things. So, yes you've added to the din, but the incessant
> harping on a single candidate you find unacceptable doesn't make this
> a better place to have a conversation related to positive futures. I 
> wish you'd stop.
> 
> Chris
>    --
> It is easy to turn an aquarium into fish soup, but not so
> easy to turn fish soup back into an aquarium.
> -- Lech Walesa on reverting to a market economy.
> 
> Chris Hibbert
> hibbert at mydruthers.com
> Blog:   http://www.pancrit.org
> http://mydruthers.com
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

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From spike66 at att.net  Sun Oct 23 15:40:03 2016
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2016 08:40:03 -0700
Subject: [ExI] crossdressing: was  RE:  Nobody can say we weren't warned
Message-ID: <009801d22d43$b94e4960$2beadc20$@att.net>


>... On Behalf Of Legionara
Subject: Re: [ExI] Nobody can say we weren't warned

>...It's too bad Johnson's brain is fried from all the pot. How did we get
from Paul to this? Legionara


Crossdressing.

Here's an interesting mathematical modeling puzzle for those so inclined.
First, convince yourself you understand why any democracy will evolve into a
two-party system by the competitive advantage of belonging to a mainstream
party.  This tends to reduce the number of main parties until the number of
parties is one.  At that time, the lone remaining party splits into two.
This causes the magic number of parties to always tend toward two.

In European countries we see coalitions of parties, and in some cases it
evolves into three coalitions where the winner is whenever two of the three
work together.  This is analogous in a sense to two major parties, if you
want to think of it that way.

OK now, view the two mainstream US parties as coalitions.  Those two gain
strength to the point where any other party is shut out, leading to the
well-known observation that third parties cannot win.

Next step, visualize the mainstream parties realizing that to win they must
present a unified front.  Their own primary process is destructive and
expensive.  They need to save their powder for the main event.  Turns out
there is a well-known way to do that. 

A party's pragmatists are those who realize the party's victory is more
important than the candidate.  The pragmatist segment goes with the most
likely front runner.  

Now imagine the party wants to control the pragmatist vote.  A category of
special delegates are selected, ones that can be consulted, controlled,
party loyalists.  Lock up these delegates, the Chosen One locks up the major
contributors and the pragmatist vote.  With those three factors (selected
delegates, pragmatists and donors) the primaries are over before they start.
The party appears unified.  I call it pseudo-unified.

Meanwhile, the hapless opponents not using that strategy are scrapping for
donations, fighting each other, dividing themselves 17 ways.  The advantage
to the pseudo-unified party is enormous.

Even if a challenger emerges who has no chance at all and makes a surprising
good showing by coming across even to those who disagree as at least a
decent respectable person, the illusion of a unified front can be
maintained.

But wait, there's more.

If the pseudo-unified party then cross-registers as voters from the other
party, they can create chaos by selecting the other party's least acceptable
candidate.  The other party's strong candidates are defeated early, since
the other party is divided so many ways.  The other party elects someone who
just isn't right, the pseudo-unified party wins in the general.

This cross-dressing strategy has at least two easily-identifiable risks.
The second biggest risk is that the non-unified party, with the help of
crossdressers, selects an unacceptable candidate and wins anyway, leading to
chaos.  The biggest risk is that the pseudo-unified party's pre-selected
candidate wins, leading to chaos.

Mathematical modeling experts, here ya go.  Legionara, that is how we got
from Rand Paul to here.

spike








From johnkclark at gmail.com  Sun Oct 23 16:12:43 2016
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2016 12:12:43 -0400
Subject: [ExI]
	=?utf-8?q?deplorables=3A_was_RE=3A_Nobody_can_say_we_weren?=
	=?utf-8?b?4oCZdCB3YXJuZWQ=?=
In-Reply-To: <00a501d22cda$e663f990$b32becb0$@att.net>
References: <012101d22ca9$f2b9e550$d82daff0$@att.net>
 <CAJPayv2-BTj5_bZnN8t2=pwTUktCtBHVqHcHzYJktXWaJrnuYQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <00a501d22cda$e663f990$b32becb0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv1c3iF34Rhbj4nuFkGa15LdM8QCitTp2isiUTA96PYf=Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Oct 22, 2016 at 11:09 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:


> ?> ?
> If Trump is impeached and convicted, his orders cannot be legally carried
> out.
>
>
?So What? ?If the military is behind him, and he will have 4 years to see
to it they are, then the law is whatever Trump says it is.



> >  I would bet on the military not following him into a coup attempt.


?Maybe, but would you bet your life and liberty on ?it? I would prefer not
to be forced to make that bet, and that's why I'm voting for Hillary.


?> ?
> We are too well-armed.
>

?If it comes down to a confrontation between the NRA and the US army the
NRA is going to lose and they are going to lose big.?



> >
>> ?>?
>> ? I keep telling you, the Constipation is a piece of paper not a law of
>> physics, it only has power if people agree it has power?
>
>
> ?> ?
> People do.
>

?Trump doesn't, and if he wins he will be the most powerful constitutional
officer in the land. ?



> ?> ?
> Military officers swear to uphold the
> ? ?
> Constitution.


?I'm not worried about today's military officers, I'm worried about what
they'll be like after 4 years of Trump.
On January 20 Trump too will swear to uphold the Constitution, but he
already told us in the third debate what he really thinks of that document.
  ?



> ?> ?
> The military guys I have known personally are law and order types.
>

?They certainly are now, but things change and a megalomaniacal and
profoundly ignorant president will change a lot of things, none for the
better.    ?


> ?> ?
> Are you then making the case that all fools and sociopaths are Trump
> supporters?


?No, I'm saying all Trump supporters are ?fools or
sociopaths
?. I'm sure other candidates have some fools and sociopaths on their side
too, but that's the only type Trump has.  I know that might sound harsh but
I don't see any other way to interpret events, anybody who can't see what
sort of man Trump is can only be a fool, and if they can see but don't care
if such a man becomes the most powerful person on the planet then they're a
sociopath.


> ?>
> If a POTUS is impeached and convicted, his or her VP is immediately sworn
> in by the Chief Justice and becomes the new POTUS.
>

?Says who? In 4 years the only person who's opinion on this matter is
important is the man in the tank right over there, and Donald Trump is his
boss.


> ?> ?
> The Constitution is more than a piece of paper; it?s the law.


?But it's not a law of physics. I think you're being far too optimistic to
expect the law to protect us from a monster like Trump, I wish it could but
I don't buy it.  ?


>
>> ?> ?
>> just a few days ago somebody who has one chance in 6 in being the top
>> constitutional officer made it clear he sees no reason to obey the
>> constitution?
>
>
> ?> ?
> He hasn?t taken the vow yet.
>

?
Do you really think a little thing like taking a vow will stop a man like
Trump for one nanosecond?
? ?
I'll tell you one thing for sure, if this democracy ever
?
 falls it will be because of a man like Donald Trump, if it isn't Donald
Trump himself.


> ?> ?
> I don?t see in the constitution a word about the losing candidate
> respecting the outcome of the election.  Where is it?


?It's not in the constitution, it's a custom every losing candidate has
followed since the country started, and a very noble custom too in my
opinion. The fact that Trump will break with this custom of showing respect
for the constitution tells me the sort of man he really is, and it fills me
with dread. Admit it Spike, didn't your skin crawl just a little the first
time you heard Trump say that in the third debate?   ?



> ?> ?
> I don?t fault Gore for protesting the election either.


?I don't fault Gore either, and I won't fault Trump if the election ?is as
close as the 2000 election was, but that's not what Trump was talking
about. Gore didn't say a month *before *election day that the election was
rigged and he would abide by the results only if he won.


> >
>> ?> ?
>> ?but if Trump is impeached and convicted I don't think he's going
>> anywhere?
>
>
> ?> ?
> He wouldn?t need to go anywhere to have his VP sworn in as the new POTUS.
>

?The man in the tank over there says you're wrong, he says that guy isn't
the new POTUS, he says Donald still is and he's got 80 tons of ironclad
arguments to convince you that he's right.?



> >
>> ?> ?
>> Just
>>
>> like what he wants to do with Hillary he will "lock up" anyone in
>> congress who voted for his impeachment. Who's going to stop him?
>
>
>
> ?> ?
> He has to have a charge to have anyone locked up.
>

?The man in the tank disagrees, he works for Donald and his opinion is more
important than yours or mine.?



> ?> ?
> POTUS cannot wave a magic wand and create an instant dictatorship.


?True, it will take about 4 years.?



> ?> ?
> Were that possible, it would have been done a long time ago.


?No because in the history of the country we've never had a major
candidate, much less a presadent, like Donald J Trump. ?


?> ?
> So I ask again, who goes in that basket?
>

?And I answer again, Trump supporters.?


>
>> ?> ?
>> ?and the voters punished her for it. If telling the truth got votes then
>> politicians would tell the truth, but it doesn't so they don't?
>
>
>
> ?> ?
> John that is a rather remarkable admission.
>

?It's Evolution in action, politicians who say one thing in private and
another in public survive, those that don't don't. And if I were a
politician and the previous sentence were leaked by Vladimir Putin
my career would be seriously damaged because it's the truth.

 John K Clark
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From interzone at gmail.com  Sun Oct 23 16:14:22 2016
From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio)
Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2016 12:14:22 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Nobody can say we weren't warned
In-Reply-To: <CAJrqPH9=4RM9SA--XjvjnATpwZJsB0KWaoH1qyij6LxcjyruOg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <349f4add-b6fb-101b-6105-bdc11bc10a77@mydruthers.com>
 <20161023082627.000009df.legionara@openmailbox.org>
 <CAJrqPH9=4RM9SA--XjvjnATpwZJsB0KWaoH1qyij6LxcjyruOg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJrqPH-j=WPGA-WDVZToTSALE8BLAmK0y_ntS7TrF14mtAX4-w@mail.gmail.com>

A nice ad hominem attack that leaves little room for discussion.  He did a
pretty good job as governor of New Mexico, and based on hearing him in
person, I would not characterize him as fried.  The pot is an easy
Boogeyman though, so I get it.

On Oct 23, 2016 10:57 AM, "Legionara" <legionara at openmailbox.org> wrote:

It's too bad Johnson's brain is fried from all the pot. How did we get
from Paul to this?

On Sat, 22 Oct 2016 11:35:39 -0700
Chris Hibbert <hibbert at mydruthers.com> wrote:

> John Clark blathered:
> > If [... Trump ...]  why the hell did you vote for Mr. What Is
> > Aleppo?
>
> I'd rather have a president who has a policy position on the Middle
> East that doesn't call for military intervention at every turn than
> someone who's carefully tracking the details of which faction is
> currently in control of which region. There are more important things
> to get right.
>
> My vote isn't going to change the outcome, so arguing that I *must*
> vote for one with a certifiable chance of winning doesn't carry water
> with me. AFAICT, the main consequences of my actions are results of my
> speaking to acquaintances about what I believe. The main effect of my
> vote is in the vote totals the day after the election. One more vote
> for a demopublican is completely unnoticeable (no politician ever read
> votes in his/her column as a vote against the other candidate), while
> another vote for a third party candidate who broadly represents my
> views is worth the time it takes.
>
> > if [... Trump ...] And yet you voted for Mr. I Can't Name A Single
> > Foreign Leader because you wanted to make a principled stand.
>
> The question wasn't "Can you name a foreign leader?", it was "Please
> name a foreign leader you respect", and as Gary Johnson pointed out,
> if anyone you name has any warts, those become your warts. These days,
> it isn't safe for a politician to profess respect for Thomas Jefferson
> or George Washington. Do you think Bishop Tutu is safe? Maggie
> Thatcher?
>
> Can you name a foreign leader that you wouldn't be pilloried for in
> some circles? I'd have expressed limited respect for some things that
> Thatcher or Mandela did, and point out that Germany's Merkel has been
> welcoming to refugees.
>
>
> And John, as far as your subject line goes, I've been warned about the
> dangers of voting for Johnson, Trump, Clinton, of staying home, and
> many other things. So, yes you've added to the din, but the incessant
> harping on a single candidate you find unacceptable doesn't make this
> a better place to have a conversation related to positive futures. I
> wish you'd stop.
>
> Chris
>    --
> It is easy to turn an aquarium into fish soup, but not so
> easy to turn fish soup back into an aquarium.
> -- Lech Walesa on reverting to a market economy.
>
> Chris Hibbert
> hibbert at mydruthers.com
> Blog:   http://www.pancrit.org
> http://mydruthers.com
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sun Oct 23 16:19:27 2016
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2016 11:19:27 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Nobody can say we weren't warned
In-Reply-To: <CAJrqPH-j=WPGA-WDVZToTSALE8BLAmK0y_ntS7TrF14mtAX4-w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <349f4add-b6fb-101b-6105-bdc11bc10a77@mydruthers.com>
 <20161023082627.000009df.legionara@openmailbox.org>
 <CAJrqPH9=4RM9SA--XjvjnATpwZJsB0KWaoH1qyij6LxcjyruOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJrqPH-j=WPGA-WDVZToTSALE8BLAmK0y_ntS7TrF14mtAX4-w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEb-TiBhX=x=cx3yLm4cJcmwyhT4hYmHZXmeg5guo19A5g@mail.gmail.com>

The pot is an easy Boogeyman though, so I get it.  dylan


Yeah, I have on ti for fourty years and itash don nothin to my brian.  bill
w

On Sun, Oct 23, 2016 at 11:14 AM, Dylan Distasio <interzone at gmail.com>
wrote:

> A nice ad hominem attack that leaves little room for discussion.  He did a
> pretty good job as governor of New Mexico, and based on hearing him in
> person, I would not characterize him as fried.  The pot is an easy
> Boogeyman though, so I get it.
>
> On Oct 23, 2016 10:57 AM, "Legionara" <legionara at openmailbox.org> wrote:
>
> It's too bad Johnson's brain is fried from all the pot. How did we get
> from Paul to this?
>
> On Sat, 22 Oct 2016 11:35:39 -0700
> Chris Hibbert <hibbert at mydruthers.com> wrote:
>
> > John Clark blathered:
> > > If [... Trump ...]  why the hell did you vote for Mr. What Is
> > > Aleppo?
> >
> > I'd rather have a president who has a policy position on the Middle
> > East that doesn't call for military intervention at every turn than
> > someone who's carefully tracking the details of which faction is
> > currently in control of which region. There are more important things
> > to get right.
> >
> > My vote isn't going to change the outcome, so arguing that I *must*
> > vote for one with a certifiable chance of winning doesn't carry water
> > with me. AFAICT, the main consequences of my actions are results of my
> > speaking to acquaintances about what I believe. The main effect of my
> > vote is in the vote totals the day after the election. One more vote
> > for a demopublican is completely unnoticeable (no politician ever read
> > votes in his/her column as a vote against the other candidate), while
> > another vote for a third party candidate who broadly represents my
> > views is worth the time it takes.
> >
> > > if [... Trump ...] And yet you voted for Mr. I Can't Name A Single
> > > Foreign Leader because you wanted to make a principled stand.
> >
> > The question wasn't "Can you name a foreign leader?", it was "Please
> > name a foreign leader you respect", and as Gary Johnson pointed out,
> > if anyone you name has any warts, those become your warts. These days,
> > it isn't safe for a politician to profess respect for Thomas Jefferson
> > or George Washington. Do you think Bishop Tutu is safe? Maggie
> > Thatcher?
> >
> > Can you name a foreign leader that you wouldn't be pilloried for in
> > some circles? I'd have expressed limited respect for some things that
> > Thatcher or Mandela did, and point out that Germany's Merkel has been
> > welcoming to refugees.
> >
> >
> > And John, as far as your subject line goes, I've been warned about the
> > dangers of voting for Johnson, Trump, Clinton, of staying home, and
> > many other things. So, yes you've added to the din, but the incessant
> > harping on a single candidate you find unacceptable doesn't make this
> > a better place to have a conversation related to positive futures. I
> > wish you'd stop.
> >
> > Chris
> >    --
> > It is easy to turn an aquarium into fish soup, but not so
> > easy to turn fish soup back into an aquarium.
> > -- Lech Walesa on reverting to a market economy.
> >
> > Chris Hibbert
> > hibbert at mydruthers.com
> > Blog:   http://www.pancrit.org
> > http://mydruthers.com
> > _______________________________________________
> > extropy-chat mailing list
> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sun Oct 23 16:24:25 2016
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2016 11:24:25 -0500
Subject: [ExI] crossdressing: was RE: Nobody can say we weren't warned
In-Reply-To: <009801d22d43$b94e4960$2beadc20$@att.net>
References: <009801d22d43$b94e4960$2beadc20$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEaE+Z5bwv1zyePkdnCJ5y015TQ39fNxO8AJLgJgZQq+iA@mail.gmail.com>

OK now, view the two mainstream US parties as coalitions.  Those two gain
strength to the point where any other party is shut out  spike

I am having trouble with this one.  Europe can govern with coalitions - we
can't or don't.  They cooperate in some senses of that word, and we don't.
So in what sense are our two parties coalitions, as opposed to bitter
enemies?  bill w

On Sun, Oct 23, 2016 at 10:40 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

>
> >... On Behalf Of Legionara
> Subject: Re: [ExI] Nobody can say we weren't warned
>
> >...It's too bad Johnson's brain is fried from all the pot. How did we get
> from Paul to this? Legionara
>
>
> Crossdressing.
>
> Here's an interesting mathematical modeling puzzle for those so inclined.
> First, convince yourself you understand why any democracy will evolve into
> a
> two-party system by the competitive advantage of belonging to a mainstream
> party.  This tends to reduce the number of main parties until the number of
> parties is one.  At that time, the lone remaining party splits into two.
> This causes the magic number of parties to always tend toward two.
>
> In European countries we see coalitions of parties, and in some cases it
> evolves into three coalitions where the winner is whenever two of the three
> work together.  This is analogous in a sense to two major parties, if you
> want to think of it that way.
>
> OK now, view the two mainstream US parties as coalitions.  Those two gain
> strength to the point where any other party is shut out, leading to the
> well-known observation that third parties cannot win.
>
> Next step, visualize the mainstream parties realizing that to win they must
> present a unified front.  Their own primary process is destructive and
> expensive.  They need to save their powder for the main event.  Turns out
> there is a well-known way to do that.
>
> A party's pragmatists are those who realize the party's victory is more
> important than the candidate.  The pragmatist segment goes with the most
> likely front runner.
>
> Now imagine the party wants to control the pragmatist vote.  A category of
> special delegates are selected, ones that can be consulted, controlled,
> party loyalists.  Lock up these delegates, the Chosen One locks up the
> major
> contributors and the pragmatist vote.  With those three factors (selected
> delegates, pragmatists and donors) the primaries are over before they
> start.
> The party appears unified.  I call it pseudo-unified.
>
> Meanwhile, the hapless opponents not using that strategy are scrapping for
> donations, fighting each other, dividing themselves 17 ways.  The advantage
> to the pseudo-unified party is enormous.
>
> Even if a challenger emerges who has no chance at all and makes a
> surprising
> good showing by coming across even to those who disagree as at least a
> decent respectable person, the illusion of a unified front can be
> maintained.
>
> But wait, there's more.
>
> If the pseudo-unified party then cross-registers as voters from the other
> party, they can create chaos by selecting the other party's least
> acceptable
> candidate.  The other party's strong candidates are defeated early, since
> the other party is divided so many ways.  The other party elects someone
> who
> just isn't right, the pseudo-unified party wins in the general.
>
> This cross-dressing strategy has at least two easily-identifiable risks.
> The second biggest risk is that the non-unified party, with the help of
> crossdressers, selects an unacceptable candidate and wins anyway, leading
> to
> chaos.  The biggest risk is that the pseudo-unified party's pre-selected
> candidate wins, leading to chaos.
>
> Mathematical modeling experts, here ya go.  Legionara, that is how we got
> from Rand Paul to here.
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Sun Oct 23 16:31:20 2016
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2016 12:31:20 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Nobody can say we weren't warned
In-Reply-To: <CAJrqPH-j=WPGA-WDVZToTSALE8BLAmK0y_ntS7TrF14mtAX4-w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <349f4add-b6fb-101b-6105-bdc11bc10a77@mydruthers.com>
 <20161023082627.000009df.legionara@openmailbox.org>
 <CAJrqPH9=4RM9SA--XjvjnATpwZJsB0KWaoH1qyij6LxcjyruOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJrqPH-j=WPGA-WDVZToTSALE8BLAmK0y_ntS7TrF14mtAX4-w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv2goS0nvmzCyfh9RvhO2U_NWQ15t0tov_7mzqAhdxOQ8A@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Oct 23, 2016 at 12:14 PM, Dylan Distasio <interzone at gmail.com>
wrote:

> ?> ?
> A nice ad hominem attack
>
> ?Yes but you almost make that sound like a bad thing. The pompous phrase "
ad hominem
?" means an argument against somebody's character not against any
particular idea, and that seems to me to be a perfectly valid thing to do
in an election year; after all on November 8 we'll be voting for a person
not a idea. I agree with the religious right wing nuts on one
thing, character counts.

 John K Clark
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From spike66 at att.net  Sun Oct 23 16:26:55 2016
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2016 09:26:55 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Nobody can say we weren't warned
In-Reply-To: <CAJrqPH-j=WPGA-WDVZToTSALE8BLAmK0y_ntS7TrF14mtAX4-w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <349f4add-b6fb-101b-6105-bdc11bc10a77@mydruthers.com>
 <20161023082627.000009df.legionara@openmailbox.org>
 <CAJrqPH9=4RM9SA--XjvjnATpwZJsB0KWaoH1qyij6LxcjyruOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJrqPH-j=WPGA-WDVZToTSALE8BLAmK0y_ntS7TrF14mtAX4-w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <002401d22d4a$45e6a920$d1b3fb60$@att.net>

 

 

>? On Behalf Of Dylan Distasio
Subject: Re: [ExI] Nobody can say we weren't warned

 

>?A nice ad hominem attack that leaves little room for discussion?

Ja I saw no compelling reason to answer it.

>?  The pot is an easy Boogeyman though, so I get it.

I can?t say from personal experience; I don?t smoke it, didn?t even in the 70s, but it apparently leads to severe memory loss.  Reference sworn testimony to Judicial Watch, 13 October 2016.  Alzheimer?s or dope?  Neither?  Both?  What stage would you estimate?

 

spike

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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sun Oct 23 16:40:50 2016
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2016 11:40:50 -0500
Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Nobody_can_say_we_weren=E2=80=99t_warned?=
In-Reply-To: <00ac01d22cdc$9277d5c0$b7678140$@att.net>
References: <CAJPayv0J3J6dS0ep23w_+S1jW+SqDtSrm1p5D4SS8fshvZ=1sQ@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CALAdGNQpnLUQx=SXgx9q2wZovp_5B=573tDPNKVjQ0eg9JqYkg@mail.gmail.com>
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 <00ac01d22cdc$9277d5c0$b7678140$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEafRfeZqWgUSQ9nASfH3JnFiKDUYg13BbExenj4oWKcRw@mail.gmail.com>

Perhaps we need to stop electing lawyers to be chief executive and elect
actual executives to be chief executive.



spike


 So who's the lawyer?  Hillary.  Who's the executive?  Trump.  I keep
hearing about running government like a business.  Since I have no business
experience I'd like to know just what that entails.


Let Congress declare war and then totally step out of the way.  Let
Congress RUN a way?  Horrors.

On Sat, Oct 22, 2016 at 10:21 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] *On
> Behalf Of *Adrian Tymes
> *Sent:* Saturday, October 22, 2016 7:20 PM
> *To:* ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Nobody can say we weren?t warned
>
>
>
> On Sat, Oct 22, 2016 at 4:10 PM, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> ?> ?
>
>  it's been well established what happens if he wins
>
>
>
> ?Apparently not, ?if it were you wouldn't have voted for Mr. What Is
> Aleppo.
>
>
>
>
> Spike, has John blatantly and repeatedly insulted list members with this
> utter and thoroughly disproven nonsense enough to ban him until after
> November 8 yet?
>
> This goes beyond politics.  He presumes to tell me what I think, and
> refuses all explanations as to why I both agree that Trump is bad and would
> prefer to vote against Hillary anyway - and I am not the only one.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi Adrian,
>
>
>
> I must disqualify myself from making that call, being as I myself have
> engaged in the distasteful discussion, unadvisedly perhaps.
>
>
>
> Should another volunteer to be temporary moderator, I volunteer to step
> aside for the next three weeks and resume duties if called upon to do so at
> the end of that time on 9 November, and speak of the matter no more.
>
>
>
> I feel your pain.
>
>
>
> Oh wait, retract, that phrase has already been spoiled?  {8^D
>
>
>
> I urge forbearance, restraint, tolerance and endurance: let us wait it
> out.  We are all in this together; this too soon shall pass.  A really good
> option is to ignore the entire distasteful thread.  (? the humble
> omnipotent moderator commented, fully recognizing the irony in that he
> himself has failed repeatedly to heed his own advice?)
>
>
>
> spike
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From spike66 at att.net  Sun Oct 23 16:46:42 2016
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2016 09:46:42 -0700
Subject: [ExI] crossdressing: was RE: Nobody can say we weren't warned
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEaE+Z5bwv1zyePkdnCJ5y015TQ39fNxO8AJLgJgZQq+iA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <009801d22d43$b94e4960$2beadc20$@att.net>
 <CAO+xQEaE+Z5bwv1zyePkdnCJ5y015TQ39fNxO8AJLgJgZQq+iA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <004801d22d4d$08e62d40$1ab287c0$@att.net>

 

 

>? On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace
>?Subject: Re: [ExI] crossdressing: was RE: Nobody can say we weren't warned

 

>>?OK now, view the two mainstream US parties as coalitions.  Those two gain strength to the point where any other party is shut out  spike

 

>?I am having trouble with this one.  Europe can govern with coalitions - we can't or don't.  They cooperate in some senses of that word, and we don't.  So in what sense are our two parties coalitions, as opposed to bitter enemies?  bill w

 

 

 

The two US parties do kinda collaborate.  I get the feeling both mainstream parties would like to disown their own religion voters but realize what an important constituency they are.  Reasoning: in general, religious people tend to have bigger families, or bigger families tend toward religion, take your pick.  Families are the most effective way to propagate memesets.  

 

So like it or not, the support of religious groups is critical to a political coalition?s present and future.  Conclusion: political parties may dislike but still need religious voting blocs.

 

This incident from four years ago inserted a bit of comic relief.  Scratch, understatement.  It inserted hilarity and insight.  After commenting they needed a 2/3 voice vote, they passed it with what sounded to me like a tossup, or perhaps a 1/3 vote:

 

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2012/09/05/convention-floor-chaos-democrats-alter-platform-disagree/

 

{8^D  heeeeeeeeeehehehehehehehehheheeeeee?

 

Well OK then, 2/3 plus or minus 1.  Reminds me of the Black Knight: all right, we?ll call it a draw.  {8^D

 

If ya don?t want the answer, then doooon?t aaaask the question.

 

spike

 

 

 

 

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From interzone at gmail.com  Sun Oct 23 17:01:55 2016
From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio)
Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2016 13:01:55 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Nobody can say we weren't warned
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv2goS0nvmzCyfh9RvhO2U_NWQ15t0tov_7mzqAhdxOQ8A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <349f4add-b6fb-101b-6105-bdc11bc10a77@mydruthers.com>
 <20161023082627.000009df.legionara@openmailbox.org>
 <CAJrqPH9=4RM9SA--XjvjnATpwZJsB0KWaoH1qyij6LxcjyruOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJrqPH-j=WPGA-WDVZToTSALE8BLAmK0y_ntS7TrF14mtAX4-w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv2goS0nvmzCyfh9RvhO2U_NWQ15t0tov_7mzqAhdxOQ8A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJrqPH_KfZo5BAgKRAx-4p9E2VTiQZg4yYuAaV9YhyMTL=_DCw@mail.gmail.com>

Apologies if you find it pompous; I find it incredibly ironic you're
holding up character and still voting for HRC.

I find it pompous to judge others who decide to support a candidate that
doesn't fit YOUR narrative or who choose not to vote.

On Oct 23, 2016 12:31 PM, "John Clark" <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

>
> On Sun, Oct 23, 2016 at 12:14 PM, Dylan Distasio <interzone at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> ?> ?
>> A nice ad hominem attack
>>
>> ?Yes but you almost make that sound like a bad thing. The pompous phrase "
> ad hominem
> ?" means an argument against somebody's character not against any
> particular idea, and that seems to me to be a perfectly valid thing to do
> in an election year; after all on November 8 we'll be voting for a person
> not a idea. I agree with the religious right wing nuts on one
> thing, character counts.
>
>  John K Clark
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From pharos at gmail.com  Sun Oct 23 17:27:52 2016
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2016 18:27:52 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Antidote to JC Trump rants
Message-ID: <CAL_armhZYH4LHQGQspG0PaeV9ChoHtvDoVS_J=A0LukCfkLD0w@mail.gmail.com>

Scott Adams (Dilbert) blog mostly appears to prefer Trump to Clinton
and writes interesting stuff about both.
<http://blog.dilbert.com/>

He is also on Twitter, but he suspects that Twitter has started
shadowbanning him.

BillK


From steinberg.will at gmail.com  Sun Oct 23 18:02:55 2016
From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg)
Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2016 14:02:55 -0400
Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Nobody_can_say_we_weren=E2=80=99t_warned?=
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEafRfeZqWgUSQ9nASfH3JnFiKDUYg13BbExenj4oWKcRw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv0J3J6dS0ep23w_+S1jW+SqDtSrm1p5D4SS8fshvZ=1sQ@mail.gmail.com>
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 <009c01d22bbb$f8060af0$e81220d0$@att.net>
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Message-ID: <CAKrqSyEe-K0riuCbrvnZu4L2O1eL2qPuqZrjQd-0W7F0cY1KFw@mail.gmail.com>

Hillary and the DNC made sure that Trump would be candidate so that the
moral imperative would be to vote FOR her, instead of if someone like Mitt
Romney ran and the moral imperative would be to vote against her.

At this point I even am considering the possibility that Trump has been
paid to lose by the Clintons.

We're fucked if we do and fucked if we don't.  Remember Hillary is the
person who said "We came, we saw, he died" and laughed about Qaddafi being
tortured and sodomized with a bayonet by fringe Islamist hard-right-wing
rebels who we supported to overthrow the communist leader supported by the
majority of the population who was going to take the country off the
petrodollar.  (remind anyone here of South America in the 80s?) Or we get
Trump who's a moron, possibly on purpose, who Hillary is ecstatic about
being the competitor to.

If everyone could finally shut up about the election that would be grand.
I'd be really happy if John stopped complaining and Spike stopped talking
about the goddamn footsteps now instead of waiting until the 8th.

I'm voting for Hillary and have intensely argued for her here.  But I'm
pretty sure she's going to highly amp up this new cold war and it's people
my age who are gonna get drafted when we eventually turn it into a hot war
(maybe by trying to institute a Syrian no-fly-zone?)

Anyway, John, Wikileaks already has shown that the DNC wanted Trump to
run.  In my eyes, that's the end of the argument.  He's fucking
unelectable!  And you for sure aren't going to make a difference now, and
if you wanted to try you'd go volunteer at a call center instead of
complaining to a small group of nerds?

Honestly JC have you done any volunteering for Hillary?  If not then don't
talk about it here lol.

Can we legitimately put a moratorium on election posts with a weeklong ban
for breaking it?  Please?

Hear the fucksteps.  They're getting too loud and annoying to put up with
anymore.
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sun Oct 23 18:39:53 2016
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2016 13:39:53 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Nobody can say we weren't warned
In-Reply-To: <002401d22d4a$45e6a920$d1b3fb60$@att.net>
References: <349f4add-b6fb-101b-6105-bdc11bc10a77@mydruthers.com>
 <20161023082627.000009df.legionara@openmailbox.org>
 <CAJrqPH9=4RM9SA--XjvjnATpwZJsB0KWaoH1qyij6LxcjyruOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJrqPH-j=WPGA-WDVZToTSALE8BLAmK0y_ntS7TrF14mtAX4-w@mail.gmail.com>
 <002401d22d4a$45e6a920$d1b3fb60$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbvoL5kZYbxBOkSQ3aezaOd_JBu-LZCiHOnVxSNVLTMNQ@mail.gmail.com>

but it apparently leads to severe memory loss.    spike

On Sun, Oct 23, 2016 at 11:26 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *>?* *On Behalf Of *Dylan Distasio
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Nobody can say we weren't warned
>
>
>
> >?A nice ad hominem attack that leaves little room for discussion?
>
> Ja I saw no compelling reason to answer it.
>
> >?  The pot is an easy Boogeyman though, so I get it.
>
> I can?t say from personal experience; I don?t smoke it, didn?t even in the
> 70s, but it apparently leads to severe memory loss.  Reference sworn
> testimony to Judicial Watch, 13 October 2016.  Alzheimer?s or dope?
> Neither?  Both?  What stage would you estimate?
>
>
>
> spike
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sun Oct 23 19:16:01 2016
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2016 14:16:01 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Nobody can say we weren't warned
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEbvoL5kZYbxBOkSQ3aezaOd_JBu-LZCiHOnVxSNVLTMNQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <349f4add-b6fb-101b-6105-bdc11bc10a77@mydruthers.com>
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Message-ID: <CAO+xQEaHPJBYyN_Hs7symjVy63Wc6hoS5NU90-OXWqi1g7D04g@mail.gmail.com>

but it apparently leads to severe memory loss.   spike

This goes against my experience as a smoker (at 74 if I have any memory
loss it is slight and could even be due to age - but I am not a heavy
smoker at all), a friend of smokers, a teacher of a drug class who searched
the literature and found that every study supported by government funds
found problems with pot and that every independent study found none:  long
term, 20 year study in Jamaica with pot stronger than we could get at the
time, showed no difference between controls and pot group except for a five
pound difference - smoking group lighter.

Now be against it all you want, but as Daniel Moynihan said, you are
welcome to your own opinions but you are not welcome to your own facts.  If
you preach to youngsters about it you are likely to be disbelieved.  AFter
all , where are all the headlines about those over 50 who have suffered
severe memory loss attributed to pot?  That would be in the hundreds of
millions worldwide.

 Now there is some evidence, as described in Sci Amer (which issue I do not
recall - last three or four years) which suggests that pot may interfere
with brain formation up to about 25, which is about the end of brain
formation, and that pot maybe even be good for seniors.  Therefore:  not
recommended for youngsters, recommended for old folks, esp those who
strongly welcome its aphrodisiac effect.

So, I challenge whoever:  where is your data on severe memory loss?  I
think that pot is the safest drug on the planet (well, of course there is
water if you are going to be argumentative - and you CAN kill yourself with
water - one woman drank 17 gallons and died - mental patient).  Safer than
anything on either side of the counter at the drug store.  It is estimated
that you could get a bit sick if you ate two or more pounds of it.

bill w

On Sun, Oct 23, 2016 at 1:39 PM, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
wrote:

> but it apparently leads to severe memory loss.    spike
>
> On Sun, Oct 23, 2016 at 11:26 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *>?* *On Behalf Of *Dylan Distasio
>> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Nobody can say we weren't warned
>>
>>
>>
>> >?A nice ad hominem attack that leaves little room for discussion?
>>
>> Ja I saw no compelling reason to answer it.
>>
>> >?  The pot is an easy Boogeyman though, so I get it.
>>
>> I can?t say from personal experience; I don?t smoke it, didn?t even in
>> the 70s, but it apparently leads to severe memory loss.  Reference sworn
>> testimony to Judicial Watch, 13 October 2016.  Alzheimer?s or dope?
>> Neither?  Both?  What stage would you estimate?
>>
>>
>>
>> spike
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
>>
>
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From spike66 at att.net  Sun Oct 23 19:14:11 2016
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2016 12:14:11 -0700
Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Nobody_can_say_we_weren=E2=80=99t_warned?=
In-Reply-To: <CAKrqSyEe-K0riuCbrvnZu4L2O1eL2qPuqZrjQd-0W7F0cY1KFw@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <00ce01d22d61$a3bbfed0$eb33fc70$@att.net>

 

 

From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Will Steinberg
?

>?Can we legitimately put a moratorium on election posts with a weeklong ban for breaking it?  Please?  

 

OK I propose a libertarian approach: a voluntary self-enforced weeklong break in the posting on politics.  I have had to disqualify myself on moral grounds having been the poster child for political posts since about last spring.  I propose that if one opts in, then posts on US political matters in the next week, they ban themselves for a week.  Ja?

spike

 

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From steinberg.will at gmail.com  Sun Oct 23 21:11:53 2016
From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg)
Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2016 17:11:53 -0400
Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Nobody_can_say_we_weren=E2=80=99t_warned?=
In-Reply-To: <00ce01d22d61$a3bbfed0$eb33fc70$@att.net>
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Message-ID: <CAKrqSyG27yk0_LR96yxvpJKoZf-aPXRGP49OD4GgBMOmoPp1Pw@mail.gmail.com>

Aw, I was hoping for an authoritarian approach. :'(
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From spike66 at att.net  Sun Oct 23 21:35:29 2016
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2016 14:35:29 -0700
Subject: [ExI] regarding nano-authoritarianism
Message-ID: <002201d22d75$607eec40$217cc4c0$@att.net>

 

 

>? On Behalf Of Will Steinberg
Subject: Re: [ExI] Nobody can say we weren?t warned

 

Aw, I was hoping for an authoritarian approach. :'(

 

{8^D

That?s the beauty of libertarianism Will.  You can choose authoritarianism if you wish, and better yet, you get to be your dictator!  You can be harsh, merciful, stern, benevolent, totalitarian, even communist, your call, all of it with yourself as your own world-wide nano-empire, or world-wide 150 pico-empire you think a couple digits of precision or really necessary.  You can require yourself to shout Heil Me.  If you do that however, be sure to wear eye protection for the salute. 

If you choose nano-authoritarianism, you can choose to take from you according to your abilities and you give to you according to your needs.  If you go this auto-commie approach, the abilities and needs always match exactly (depending on how you define abilities and needs) because they define each other, and it fits perfectly too, since you are free to define both for yourself.

Hey I like it.  If asked my political persuasion, I will respond that I am a nano-communist, dedicated to self-discipline.  Totalitarian branch in my case, since I reserve for myself the final unquestionable authority on every command I give me.  I may enforce any punishment I wish upon me, and I don?t even need a trial, because I already know if I am guilty or innocent, being the judge, jury and jailer.

The old time theorists were right all along, or were sorta right.  Nano-communism results in Utopia.  I really like it in here (my head) even if I must confess it isn?t a very big place.  I should perhaps call it the pico-Utopia (since nano-Utopia is already taken to mean something else) led by an autocratic microlomaniac. 

Life is good when one is a nano-communist, set on world-wide self domination.

spike

 

 

 

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From danust2012 at gmail.com  Sun Oct 23 23:04:46 2016
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2016 16:04:46 -0700
Subject: [ExI] question for libertarians
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEbAhUOgnbsN+n=ay5ym5n_jKRby0=t85ZHZpk2eGStH4g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <709EAC1F-2DE8-4B73-A501-33EEDF7A7F0B@gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <1AA7EA48-5568-4CE6-B92B-4AFFC042F9BA@gmail.com>

You're responding to my post, but that's text from Chris -- not me. ;)

As for your final comment, so? If 'most of humanity' is not libertarian and prefers a level of dictation, that's not really much of argument -- not a strong one anyway. Your question was for libertarians, right? Now you've turned it to a question of what's popular. Well, most people believe and crave for all sorts of other things I'm sure you wouldn't agree with. If the popularity test is _the_ best test, are you about to start embracing things like believing in angels or the power of prayer?

(This relates to your earlier comment about being hard to be a libertarian. It's hard because libertarianism is hard to grasp. But it's not hard to grasp because it's full of baroque logic or really abstract math; it's hard to grasp because most people -- well, the ones who can grasp it -- are more afraid of freedom than dictation. I think they fear freedom mostly from either what others might do with it -- e.g., have gay sex, smoke pot, dance on the sabbath -- or what they fear they might do with -- e.g., make bad life choices like spending the retirement fund on having a good time.)

And I feel you've also shifted from things which might be voluntary -- a firm setting a plan default to X as opposed to Y -- to things like the state mandating the defaults. Libertarians really have trouble with things being forced -- as in all firms are required to have the same default setting. (What happens if a firm decides to say 'fuck paternalism! We're going to set our default the other way.'? Do they get fined or jailed or killed? Do men with guns show up to take their stuff or lock them in cages? That's what it really comes down to in the end.)

Regards,

Dan
  Sample my Kindle books via:
http://author.to/DanUst

> On Oct 22, 2016, at 2:27 PM, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> The problem with these studies that show detectable effects from subtle nudges is that there's no way to spin a consistent story about what consequences they would have in the real world, where we're surrounded by prompts, intentional and unintended, pushing us in all directions.  chris
> 
> The problem with your statement is that all three of these were real world studies with real world consequences.  Nothing is going to work on everyone of course.  Notice that the Texas sign got a national award:  litter was measured before and after putting up the signs.   So it was a study but the signs are still there. 
> 
> Just think of the warning lights and sounds in your car:  beep when you have 50 miles less to go; warning light for low oil and low tire pressure - high end cars probably have the most.  I think it is safe to say that all of these nudges are welcome except the buzzer about the seat belt, which nobody likes but saves lives (and insurance company money).  London has signs at intersections saying LOOK RIGHT.  That is for tourists in whose own country drivers are on the other side.  Saves lives.  All features of the real world - not just studies. 
> 
> So far, I seem to find few serious objections to these nudges if done right - always with a choice or more.
> 
> bill w
> 
> No libertarian (maybe some exceptions) likes to be nannied, but I'll bet most of humanity does and is thankful for the help.
> 
>> On Sat, Oct 22, 2016 at 1:55 PM, Dan TheBookMan <danust2012 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Oct 21, 2016, at 5:05 PM, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Fri, Oct 21, 2016 at 6:55 PM, Dan TheBookMan <danust2012 at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>> I'm not sure if the original question was about requiring all firms to adhere to the same policy. If so, the libertarian answer would be: No way. In other words, if one firm decides they want to default to Yes (or No) that shouldn't bind anyone except those who decide to work for that firm under those terms. Another firm could have the opposite default or even no retirement plan at all.
>>>> 
>>>> Libertarian paternalism, especially the nudge idea, works under the presumption that one default is good, but that presumes those who decide the default for everyone -- in this example, all employees at all firms -- know what's best. It also presumes that because of their knowledge they have a right to enforce a default on everyone. Libertarians, however, should question both presumptions here -- not quibble over which default is libertarian.  
>>>> 
>>>> Regards,
>>>> 
>>>> Dan
>>> 
>>> ?Company policy, not laws.  "enforce a default" offers no choice.  There is only one default offered in the 'opt out' setting:  'in'.  In the 'opt in' setting the default is 'out'.  bill w
>> 
>> Then the 'libertarian' answer should be obvious: each firm should be permitted to set its default as it please -- as I mentioned above. Think of a similar case: should restaurants be allowed to charge before or after serving the meal? Let the restaurants decide. There is no other libertarian position here. It's kind of like asking if the libertarian position is to wear a pullover or a shirt. ;)
>> 
>> Regards,
>> 
>> Dan
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sun Oct 23 23:12:23 2016
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2016 18:12:23 -0500
Subject: [ExI] regarding nano-authoritarianism
In-Reply-To: <002201d22d75$607eec40$217cc4c0$@att.net>
References: <002201d22d75$607eec40$217cc4c0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbfGE4j7FuFKwpiATM2ips1QTmAxMxRNNzog7QPgweBUQ@mail.gmail.com>

?Life is good when one is a nano-communist, set on world-wide self
domination.
spike

In theory, communist dictator is an oxymoron.  In true communism everything
belongs to everybody and everybody joins in the decisions.  In psychology
we had a guy who favored raising children with no punishment whatsoever.
He called it 'unconditional positive regard'.  Nobody knows if it works
since, like true communism, it hasn't been tried.  (now you who know more
philosophy than I do can jump all over me)

bill w
?

On Sun, Oct 23, 2016 at 4:35 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *>?* *On Behalf Of *Will Steinberg
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Nobody can say we weren?t warned
>
>
>
> Aw, I was hoping for an authoritarian approach. :'(
>
>
>
> {8^D
>
> That?s the beauty of libertarianism Will.  You can choose authoritarianism
> if you wish, and better yet, you get to be your dictator!  You can be
> harsh, merciful, stern, benevolent, totalitarian, even communist, your
> call, all of it with yourself as your own world-wide nano-empire, or
> world-wide 150 pico-empire you think a couple digits of precision or really
> necessary.  You can require yourself to shout Heil Me.  If you do that
> however, be sure to wear eye protection for the salute.
>
> If you choose nano-authoritarianism, you can choose to take from you
> according to your abilities and you give to you according to your needs.
> If you go this auto-commie approach, the abilities and needs always match
> exactly (depending on how you define abilities and needs) because they
> define each other, and it fits perfectly too, since you are free to define
> both for yourself.
>
> Hey I like it.  If asked my political persuasion, I will respond that I am
> a nano-communist, dedicated to self-discipline.  Totalitarian branch in my
> case, since I reserve for myself the final unquestionable authority on
> every command I give me.  I may enforce any punishment I wish upon me, and
> I don?t even need a trial, because I already know if I am guilty or
> innocent, being the judge, jury and jailer.
>
> The old time theorists were right all along, or were sorta right.
> Nano-communism results in Utopia.  I really like it in here (my head) even
> if I must confess it isn?t a very big place.  I should perhaps call it the
> pico-Utopia (since nano-Utopia is already taken to mean something else) led
> by an autocratic microlomaniac.
>
> Life is good when one is a nano-communist, set on world-wide self
> domination.
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sun Oct 23 23:23:59 2016
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2016 18:23:59 -0500
Subject: [ExI] question for libertarians
In-Reply-To: <1AA7EA48-5568-4CE6-B92B-4AFFC042F9BA@gmail.com>
References: <709EAC1F-2DE8-4B73-A501-33EEDF7A7F0B@gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAO+xQEboXFE6iTc4_e0DCi4YbzJusxmbN=NpmoNxWpsMVWCUWg@mail.gmail.com>

 Do men with guns show up to take their stuff or lock them in cages? That's
what it really comes down to in the end.)  dan

If nudges are applied according to Thaler in his book, Nudge, they would be
subject to Rawl's publicity principle:  if you are the government, you have
to tell the people what you are doing and if they disapprove they can
remove you at the ballot box, at least in theory.

I advise getting the book, which can be had for $3.40 delivered from
Abebooks.  They really did spend a lot of time arguing one way and another
about trying to help people while remaining libertarian, and you can argue
with them.  How about this one?

It has long been known that if, in a grocery store, you put a cart at the
end of an aisle with items in it, especially if they are an assortment of
items, people will think they are on sale despite that there is no sign
which says so, and sales increase.  I don't think they have stopped this
practice.

It would seem that this is unethical according to the way I take the book,
Nudge.  This violates the publicity principle.  Yet should they put up a
sign that says that they are not on sale? This seems really stupid to me.
Of course they could always have them on sale, or not put out a cart to
start with, but some people would call this simple marketing. (Are all
marketing techniques nudges and vice versa?) Of course in some sense it is
also a nudge, but with marketing it's always caveat emptor - you know that
sellers are going to try to get you to buy.  There is no lie here - the
only deception occurs in the mind of the buyer.  Or is it a lie?

bill w





On Sun, Oct 23, 2016 at 6:04 PM, Dan TheBookMan <danust2012 at gmail.com>
wrote:

> You're responding to my post, but that's text from Chris -- not me. ;)
>
> As for your final comment, so? If 'most of humanity' is not libertarian
> and prefers a level of dictation, that's not really much of argument -- not
> a strong one anyway. Your question was for libertarians, right? Now you've
> turned it to a question of what's popular. Well, most people believe and
> crave for all sorts of other things I'm sure you wouldn't agree with. If
> the popularity test is _the_ best test, are you about to start embracing
> things like believing in angels or the power of prayer?
>
> (This relates to your earlier comment about being hard to be a
> libertarian. It's hard because libertarianism is hard to grasp. But it's
> not hard to grasp because it's full of baroque logic or really abstract
> math; it's hard to grasp because most people -- well, the ones who can
> grasp it -- are more afraid of freedom than dictation. I think they fear
> freedom mostly from either what others might do with it -- e.g., have gay
> sex, smoke pot, dance on the sabbath -- or what they fear they might do
> with -- e.g., make bad life choices like spending the retirement fund on
> having a good time.)
>
> And I feel you've also shifted from things which might be voluntary -- a
> firm setting a plan default to X as opposed to Y -- to things like the
> state mandating the defaults. Libertarians really have trouble with things
> being forced -- as in all firms are required to have the same default
> setting. (What happens if a firm decides to say 'fuck paternalism! We're
> going to set our default the other way.'? Do they get fined or jailed or
> killed? Do men with guns show up to take their stuff or lock them in cages?
> That's what it really comes down to in the end.)
>
> Regards,
>
> Dan
>   Sample my Kindle books via:
> http://author.to/DanUst
>
> On Oct 22, 2016, at 2:27 PM, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> The problem with these studies that show detectable effects from subtle
> nudges is that there's no way to spin a consistent story about what
> consequences they would have in the real world, where we're surrounded by
> prompts, intentional and unintended, pushing us in all directions.  chris
>
> The problem with your statement is that all three of these were real world
> studies with real world consequences.  Nothing is going to work on everyone
> of course.  Notice that the Texas sign got a national award:  litter was
> measured before and after putting up the signs.   So it was a study but the
> signs are still there.
>
> Just think of the warning lights and sounds in your car:  beep when you
> have 50 miles less to go; warning light for low oil and low tire pressure -
> high end cars probably have the most.  I think it is safe to say that all
> of these nudges are welcome except the buzzer about the seat belt, which
> nobody likes but saves lives (and insurance company money).  London has
> signs at intersections saying LOOK RIGHT.  That is for tourists in whose
> own country drivers are on the other side.  Saves lives.  All features of
> the real world - not just studies.
>
> So far, I seem to find few serious objections to these nudges if done
> right - always with a choice or more.
>
> bill w
>
> No libertarian (maybe some exceptions) likes to be nannied, but I'll bet
> most of humanity does and is thankful for the help.
>
> On Sat, Oct 22, 2016 at 1:55 PM, Dan TheBookMan <danust2012 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On Oct 21, 2016, at 5:05 PM, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> On Fri, Oct 21, 2016 at 6:55 PM, Dan TheBookMan <danust2012 at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I'm not sure if the original question was about requiring all firms to
>>> adhere to the same policy. If so, the libertarian answer would be: No way.
>>> In other words, if one firm decides they want to default to Yes (or No)
>>> that shouldn't bind anyone except those who decide to work for that firm
>>> under those terms. Another firm could have the opposite default or even no
>>> retirement plan at all.
>>>
>>> Libertarian paternalism, especially the nudge idea, works under the
>>> presumption that one default is good, but that presumes those who decide
>>> the default for everyone -- in this example, all employees at all firms --
>>> know what's best. It also presumes that because of their knowledge they
>>> have a right to enforce a default on everyone. Libertarians, however,
>>> should question both presumptions here -- not quibble over which default is
>>> libertarian.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Dan
>>>
>>
>> ?Company policy, not laws.  "enforce a default" offers no choice.  There
>> is only one default offered in the 'opt out' setting:  'in'.  In the 'opt
>> in' setting the default is 'out'.  bill w
>>
>>
>> Then the 'libertarian' answer should be obvious: each firm should be
>> permitted to set its default as it please -- as I mentioned above. Think of
>> a similar case: should restaurants be allowed to charge before or after
>> serving the meal? Let the restaurants decide. There is no other libertarian
>> position here. It's kind of like asking if the libertarian position is to
>> wear a pullover or a shirt. ;)
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Dan
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From spike66 at att.net  Mon Oct 24 00:04:14 2016
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2016 17:04:14 -0700
Subject: [ExI] regarding nano-authoritarianism
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEbfGE4j7FuFKwpiATM2ips1QTmAxMxRNNzog7QPgweBUQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <002201d22d75$607eec40$217cc4c0$@att.net>
 <CAO+xQEbfGE4j7FuFKwpiATM2ips1QTmAxMxRNNzog7QPgweBUQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <005301d22d8a$28853140$798f93c0$@att.net>

 

 

>? On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace
Subject: Re: [ExI] regarding nano-authoritarianism

 

?Life is good when one is a nano-communist, set on world-wide self domination.

spike

 

>?In theory, communist dictator is an oxymoron?

 

Ja, that is the beauty of nano-communism.  It is in many ways the exact opposite of an oxymoron.  We can call it a hydrogenius.  Not sure if opposite charge is opposite, or if it should be deoxygenius, or if the whole notion makes a double negative.  The world may never know.

 

 

>?In true communism everything belongs to everybody and everybody joins in the decisions?

 

In true nano-communism, all my stuff belongs to me and I join in all my decisions.  Oh it?s great.  Every decision is unanimous, my elections fair (as long as I win them (which I always do (because I am the only candidate))) and all of me is happy.

 

 

>?  In psychology we had a guy who favored raising children with no punishment whatsoever.  He called it 'unconditional positive regard'.  Nobody knows if it works since, like true communism, it hasn't been tried.  ?bill w

?

Ja don?t worry about that guy?s kids.  When they go to school, the others will make up for any deficiency in parental discipline.

 

On this last comment, I am astonished at how non-violent modern schools have become.  That is a total major change since I was my son?s age.  He has been at this school six years and has witnessed only one fight, and I am not sure even that one qualifies.  If there is not at least a broken tooth, a black eye or at least one drop of blood on the ground, they weren?t even fighting, they were just playing while annoyed.  Six years, one fight, ONE!  Sheesh, what happened?  I wonder what Marine boot camp is like?  How many fights did you witness by the time you finished elementary school?

 

spike

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From lubkin at unreasonable.com  Mon Oct 24 11:39:48 2016
From: lubkin at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin)
Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2016 07:39:48 -0400
Subject: [ExI] regarding nano-authoritarianism
In-Reply-To: <005301d22d8a$28853140$798f93c0$@att.net>
References: <002201d22d75$607eec40$217cc4c0$@att.net>
 <CAO+xQEbfGE4j7FuFKwpiATM2ips1QTmAxMxRNNzog7QPgweBUQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <005301d22d8a$28853140$798f93c0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <201610241140.u9OBeItB012242@ziaspace.com>

Spike wrote:

>In true nano-communism, all my stuff belongs to me and I join in all 
>my decisions.  Oh it's great.  Every decision is unanimous, my 
>elections fair (as long as I win them (which I always do (because I 
>am the only candidate))) and all of me is happy.

Two gin-scented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was 
all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He 
had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Brother Spike.


-- David.





From spike66 at att.net  Mon Oct 24 13:37:57 2016
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2016 06:37:57 -0700
Subject: [ExI] regarding nano-authoritarianism
In-Reply-To: <201610241140.u9OBeItB012242@ziaspace.com>
References: <002201d22d75$607eec40$217cc4c0$@att.net>
 <CAO+xQEbfGE4j7FuFKwpiATM2ips1QTmAxMxRNNzog7QPgweBUQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <005301d22d8a$28853140$798f93c0$@att.net>
 <201610241140.u9OBeItB012242@ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <001901d22dfb$d4ff2d60$7efd8820$@att.net>


>... On Behalf Of David Lubkin
Subject: Re: [ExI] regarding nano-authoritarianism

Spike wrote:

>In true nano-communism, all my stuff belongs to me and I join in all my 
>decisions.  Oh it's great.  Every decision is unanimous, my elections 
>fair (as long as I win them (which I always do (because I am the only 
>candidate))) and all of me is happy.

>...Two gin-scented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was
all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won
the victory over himself. He loved Big Brother Spike.

-- David.
_______________________________________________



No, this is a common misconception for which I blame Orwell.  That business
about loving Big Brother, let us start with that.  Spike is not my Big
Brother, I am my Identical Twin.  Sometimes I just use the initial IT.  We
are so indistinguishable in appearance, people often mistake me for me, but
there is a rule which can help you if we meet at a local event: whichever
one you think I am, I am the other one.

IT must not be conflated with my Id.  It damages my delicate ego when those
two insult each other.  Fortunately I am such a super ego, I get over it
quickly.  BillW is the local expert on these matters, I am merely a rocket
scientist. 

Love?  Well, I like me, sure.  I discovered I am not such a bad guy once I
get to know me.

That nano-communism thing didn't start with me.  The sports guys were onto
it a long time before I was.  Consider, in nano-communism, from me according
to my ability, to me according to my need, ja?  I do what I can and I need
to do it.  

OK consider those locker room interviews they have after the game with the
winning team.  Seems like about 2/3 of the victorious team will utter some
comment either verbatim or a very close version of "Well... I just did what
I needed to do."  You have heard that, ja?  That used to drive me nuts,
until I discovered nano-communism.  I realized they weren't saying that
merely because they make their living playing a game in which most of the
players use their head as a battering ram.  That might have been a
contributing factor; not so much false modesty but true blunt force brain
trauma.  Rather, we compare with the defeated team in which that silly
comment is not heard.  That team still gets all the brain damage and none of
the glory of cooperative team nano-communism. 

I leave you with this profound thought: READ ORWELL DAMMIT!  Be the IT guy!
Read it now, read it hard, oh baby oh.  Orwell saw it all before we were
born.  Animal Farm and Nineteen Eighty Four for starters.  I demand it!  We
are living in Orwellian times, except with better gin.  If you don't get
that reference, put down whatever you are doing, order a copy of both those
slim works from Amazon, cost ya about 10 bucks, do it, read it, THINK.

spike



From spike66 at att.net  Mon Oct 24 14:13:43 2016
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2016 07:13:43 -0700
Subject: [ExI] regarding nano-authoritarianism
In-Reply-To: <001901d22dfb$d4ff2d60$7efd8820$@att.net>
References: <002201d22d75$607eec40$217cc4c0$@att.net>
 <CAO+xQEbfGE4j7FuFKwpiATM2ips1QTmAxMxRNNzog7QPgweBUQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <005301d22d8a$28853140$798f93c0$@att.net>
 <201610241140.u9OBeItB012242@ziaspace.com>
 <001901d22dfb$d4ff2d60$7efd8820$@att.net>
Message-ID: <002701d22e00$d48724f0$7d956ed0$@att.net>


>... On Behalf Of spike
Subject: Re: [ExI] regarding nano-authoritarianism


>... On Behalf Of David Lubkin

>...Two gin-scented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it 
>was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. ...

-- David.
_______________________________________________

...

I leave you with this profound thought: READ ORWELL DAMMIT! ...put down
whatever you are doing, order a copy of both those slim works from Amazon,
cost ya about 10 bucks, do it, read it, THINK.

spike

_______________________________________________


No excuses left: it's free:


https://ia800201.us.archive.org/8/items/NINETEENEIGHTY-FOUR1984ByGeorgeOrwel
lPDFAudioBook/1984.pdf


You can get it on audio as well for those of you who hafta drive a long way
to work every day, a painless alternative.  But if reading Orwell is
painless to you, then you are not reading Orwell.  But it's a GOOD hurt, the
kind of hurt that heals.

spike



From spike66 at att.net  Mon Oct 24 14:35:31 2016
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2016 07:35:31 -0700
Subject: [ExI] european crash
Message-ID: <002c01d22e03$dfe6a520$9fb3ef60$@att.net>


Owwww damn, oy vey ist mir:

http://www.foxnews.com/science/2016/10/24/rip-schiaparelli-european-mars-lan
ders-crash-site-seen-by-nasa-probe.html

Landing there is a hard task.  Let us not give up.

spike



From lubkin at unreasonable.com  Mon Oct 24 15:07:39 2016
From: lubkin at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin)
Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2016 11:07:39 -0400
Subject: [ExI] regarding nano-authoritarianism
In-Reply-To: <001901d22dfb$d4ff2d60$7efd8820$@att.net>
References: <002201d22d75$607eec40$217cc4c0$@att.net>
 <CAO+xQEbfGE4j7FuFKwpiATM2ips1QTmAxMxRNNzog7QPgweBUQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <005301d22d8a$28853140$798f93c0$@att.net>
 <201610241140.u9OBeItB012242@ziaspace.com>
 <001901d22dfb$d4ff2d60$7efd8820$@att.net>
Message-ID: <201610241508.u9OF7ukb026939@ziaspace.com>

Spike wrote:

>That nano-communism thing didn't start with me.  The sports guys were onto
>it a long time before I was.  Consider, in nano-communism, from me according
>to my ability, to me according to my need, ja?  I do what I can and I need
>to do it.

https://fee.org/articles/socialism-as-a-family-enterprise/
Yale Jay Lubkin, Socialism as a Family Enterprise

Micro-communism (family) is about the limit at which it works. 
Milli-communism (kibbutz) can work for a while. But like me at 17, 
people chafe at being told what to do. How're you going to keep them 
down on the farm once they've seen Gay Paree?

Although the piece is a lie. I have never wanted a sports car. And 
since it was written, the number increased from seven to thirteen children.


-- David.



From spike66 at att.net  Mon Oct 24 16:23:33 2016
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2016 09:23:33 -0700
Subject: [ExI] regarding nano-authoritarianism
In-Reply-To: <201610241508.u9OF7ukb026939@ziaspace.com>
References: <002201d22d75$607eec40$217cc4c0$@att.net>
 <CAO+xQEbfGE4j7FuFKwpiATM2ips1QTmAxMxRNNzog7QPgweBUQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <005301d22d8a$28853140$798f93c0$@att.net>
 <201610241140.u9OBeItB012242@ziaspace.com>
 <001901d22dfb$d4ff2d60$7efd8820$@att.net>
 <201610241508.u9OF7ukb026939@ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <007101d22e12$f7acc630$e7065290$@att.net>


>... On Behalf Of David Lubkin
...

>...Micro-communism (family) is about the limit at which it works. 
Milli-communism (kibbutz) can work for a while. But like me at 17, people
chafe at being told what to do. How're you going to keep them down on the
farm once they've seen Gay Paree?  -- David.

_______________________________________________

I have heard this for a long time, but I have always had my vague doubts.
How can we know for sure?  We don't know what goes on behind closed doors in
France.  It might just be claiming it because it's the cool thing but in
secret, when no one is around, we just don't know what is going on there.
If it was back in the old days, is it still?  With the recent French
immigrants, that sort of thing isn't allowed.  

Suggest a discrete adjective-free safe-zone approach.

spike



From atymes at gmail.com  Mon Oct 24 20:33:04 2016
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2016 13:33:04 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Disturbing the Ionosphere
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB4JB7=6dQnVQY08PLSW8SxGD8Mw+0D0bkTj1Et9GO0Huw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB4JB7=6dQnVQY08PLSW8SxGD8Mw+0D0bkTj1Et9GO0Huw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNSK88HRFR07k5Xd6P6X=mNPLpJOwh2pE+ypQm7VZ5d=aA@mail.gmail.com>

I'm not an expert on it, but the ionosphere - even just the F layer this
would operate in - seems to be somewhere over 0.0001% of the atmosphere's
mass, which comes to over 10^12 kg.  2*10^6 kg seems way too low to
seriously disturb this.

You would probably need to at least figure out the degree of ionization
(among other missing data) before full equations could be run.  But, back
of the envelope, even something as large as you propose does not seem
capable of serious disruption to the entire Earth.

On Oct 19, 2016 3:19 PM, "Keith Henson" <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> wrote:

> There are so many loose ends to tie up before a power satellite
> project can be proposed.  I wrote this about a year ago trying to find
> someone who knows about the ionosphere.  I never got an answer.  Do
> any of the people on these list know an ionosphere expert who might at
> least express an opinion?
>
> Keith
>
>
> > Another possible problem has come up, though in truth I don't know if
> > it really a problem or not.
> >
> > To keep the cost for the LEO to GEO leg down, we propose to use
> > arcjets with an exhaust velocity of 20-25 km/s.  Here is a recently
> > constructed 50 MW arcjet.
> >
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Enthalpy_Arc_Heated_Facility
> >
> > They would be powered by orbiting power plants, using space to space
> > microwave transmission, smaller versions of power satellites,
> > operating at ~25 GHz to keep the antenna sizes down.
> >
> > The exhaust velocity is well above Earth escape velocity, _but_ the
> exhaust is
> > ionized to an unknown degree and deep inside the Earth's magnetic
> > field--which contains much higher energy particles in the Van Allen
> > belts.  If the peak construction rate is 2 TW/year, that takes about a
> > million of the 15 ton Skylon payloads.  Of that, about 2 million tons
> > is reaction mass (probably hydrogen) for the arcjets, so it is a
> > serious mass flow into the magnetosphere, from LEO all the way out to
> > GEO.
> >
> > I have been looking for someone over the past few months who can set
> > up a model and see if we have a problem or not.  The electric
> > propulsion people, such as those at Ad Astra Rocket Company, tell me
> > it is an interesting question that has not been considered as far as
> > they know.  At the moment there is no funding available, but I am sure
> > there is a paper in it.
> >
> > If you want to consider working on this (or assigning a graduate
> > student) I would be delighted.
> >
> > If you use Skype, I am hkhenson there, or my phone is 626 264 7560
> >
> > Best wishes,
> >
> > Keith Henson
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L5_Society
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike66 at att.net  Tue Oct 25 16:53:19 2016
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2016 09:53:19 -0700
Subject: [ExI] self driving truck
In-Reply-To: <009c01d22ede$51fc6ac0$f5f54040$@att.net>
References: <009c01d22ede$51fc6ac0$f5f54040$@att.net>
Message-ID: <00a901d22ee0$4b73d4c0$e25b7e40$@att.net>

 

 

Cool!  So now we have a demonstration using an 18 wheeler:

 

http://www.foxnews.com/auto/2016/10/25/ottos-self-driving-semi-truck-made-be
er-run.html

 

It has been twelve years since we started really talking about this and how
it is a logical application of existing technology.  Had even something so
mainstream as autobraking been installed on that bus in Palm Springs, 13
proles would have been saved, just autobraking, never mind the rest of it.
Autobraking is proven mainstream technology; my buddy has a Lexus with that
on there.

 

This bit about setting the autopilot and getting in back is cool however.
It is easy enough to envision the logical next step.  It doesn't need to be
full self-driving; just freeway autopilot will do.  Get a van with this
setup, 500 mile freeway ride, get on there with conventional bio-guidance,
set autopilot, nine free hours to ingest recreational pharmaceutical of
choice (not recommending it, just acknowledging that the proles will do it)
get in back with sweetheart, time to entertain each other, sleep it off,
recover senses in time to take over bio-guidance duties upon arrival ten
hours later.

 

I had a situation which required regular trips of 500 miles, 97% of it
freeway.  That trip would be so much more entertaining or refreshing had I
this technology at the time.  I would give them 10k to have it.

 

spike

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From giulioprisco at protonmail.ch  Sat Oct 29 08:28:09 2016
From: giulioprisco at protonmail.ch (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2016 04:28:09 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Test post to check if the ProtonMail problem is fixed.
Message-ID: <Idg7E0WkQdVpJQsGjzsSancG7eYAb7Rke_gLCtANbBkgoNMIttf5ncdA5y6_5uUu8bFjr5nHiIz0hldd1_cZerNy0DTJAetHzVbiOmcVmio=@protonmail.ch>

Testing. Can you guys see this?



--
Giulio Prisco
http://giulioprisco.com/
giulioprisco at protonmail.ch
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From johntc at gmail.com  Sat Oct 29 10:23:49 2016
From: johntc at gmail.com (John Tracy Cunningham)
Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2016 14:23:49 +0400
Subject: [ExI] Test post to check if the ProtonMail problem is fixed.
In-Reply-To: <Idg7E0WkQdVpJQsGjzsSancG7eYAb7Rke_gLCtANbBkgoNMIttf5ncdA5y6_5uUu8bFjr5nHiIz0hldd1_cZerNy0DTJAetHzVbiOmcVmio=@protonmail.ch>
References: <Idg7E0WkQdVpJQsGjzsSancG7eYAb7Rke_gLCtANbBkgoNMIttf5ncdA5y6_5uUu8bFjr5nHiIz0hldd1_cZerNy0DTJAetHzVbiOmcVmio=@protonmail.ch>
Message-ID: <CAAYfg-hFY7=ZTkfRLJcdfw2gMBSY2c=P2Ksmd5GpTAyxAnDCxA@mail.gmail.com>

Yes, but it landed in my Gmail Spam, with the notation that the address is
indeed from protonmail.ch but it failed protonmail.ch's required tests for
authentication.  Regards, John

On Sat, Oct 29, 2016 at 12:28 PM, Giulio Prisco <giulioprisco at protonmail.ch>
wrote:

> Testing. Can you guys see this?
>
> --
> Giulio Prisco
> http://giulioprisco.com/
> giulioprisco at protonmail.ch
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From ilsa.bartlett at gmail.com  Sat Oct 29 11:30:58 2016
From: ilsa.bartlett at gmail.com (ilsa)
Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2016 04:30:58 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Test post to check if the ProtonMail problem is fixed.
In-Reply-To: <CAAYfg-hFY7=ZTkfRLJcdfw2gMBSY2c=P2Ksmd5GpTAyxAnDCxA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <Idg7E0WkQdVpJQsGjzsSancG7eYAb7Rke_gLCtANbBkgoNMIttf5ncdA5y6_5uUu8bFjr5nHiIz0hldd1_cZerNy0DTJAetHzVbiOmcVmio=@protonmail.ch>
 <CAAYfg-hFY7=ZTkfRLJcdfw2gMBSY2c=P2Ksmd5GpTAyxAnDCxA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAN3PQpF+Aoh=2-gSDx0c=6pZqde=OSVqX-tExtRH5eaD3cyzQQ@mail.gmail.com>

This post arrived.
smile, ilsa

Ilsa Bartlett
Institute for Rewiring the System
http://ilsabartlett.wordpress.com
http://www.google.com/profiles/ilsa.bartlett
www.hotlux.com/angel <http://www.hotlux.com/angel.htm>

"Don't ever get so big or important that you can not hear and listen to
every other person."
-John Coltrane

On Sat, Oct 29, 2016 at 3:23 AM, John Tracy Cunningham <johntc at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Yes, but it landed in my Gmail Spam, with the notation that the address is
> indeed from protonmail.ch but it failed protonmail.ch's required tests
> for authentication.  Regards, John
>
> On Sat, Oct 29, 2016 at 12:28 PM, Giulio Prisco <
> giulioprisco at protonmail.ch> wrote:
>
>> Testing. Can you guys see this?
>>
>> --
>> Giulio Prisco
>> http://giulioprisco.com/
>> giulioprisco at protonmail.ch
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From danust2012 at gmail.com  Sat Oct 29 15:22:35 2016
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2016 08:22:35 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Test post to check if the ProtonMail problem is fixed.
In-Reply-To: <CAAYfg-hFY7=ZTkfRLJcdfw2gMBSY2c=P2Ksmd5GpTAyxAnDCxA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <Idg7E0WkQdVpJQsGjzsSancG7eYAb7Rke_gLCtANbBkgoNMIttf5ncdA5y6_5uUu8bFjr5nHiIz0hldd1_cZerNy0DTJAetHzVbiOmcVmio=@protonmail.ch>
 <CAAYfg-hFY7=ZTkfRLJcdfw2gMBSY2c=P2Ksmd5GpTAyxAnDCxA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <611A6B95-EC9E-4DB2-9CCB-AED2321E24EF@gmail.com>

Went into my grail Junk folder.

Regards,

Dan
  Sample my Kindle books via:
http://author.to/DanUst

> On Oct 29, 2016, at 3:23 AM, John Tracy Cunningham <johntc at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Yes, but it landed in my Gmail Spam, with the notation that the address is indeed from protonmail.ch but it failed protonmail.ch's required tests for authentication.  Regards, John
> 
>> On Sat, Oct 29, 2016 at 12:28 PM, Giulio Prisco <giulioprisco at protonmail.ch> wrote:
>> Testing. Can you guys see this?
>> 
>> --
>> Giulio Prisco
>> http://giulioprisco.com/
>> giulioprisco at protonmail.ch
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
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From spike66 at att.net  Sat Oct 29 15:35:17 2016
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2016 08:35:17 -0700
Subject: [ExI] language question
Message-ID: <000401d231fa$0d6cb9e0$28462da0$@att.net>

Americans are struggling to de-gender our language to make it more
inclusive.  I am all in favor of it; have been doing that for years in
various ways, such as using she and her as the gender-nonspecific form
rather than the more traditional he and his.  This works even if we actually
do know the gender of the person, even if it introduces awkwardness (.the
rapist left a semen-stained undergarment when she fled the scene.)

 

We are hearing another awkward compromise where we use the traditionally
genderless term "they" in place of the clumsy "he or she" and "their" in
place of "his or her."  We pretend that "they" and "their" can be singular
as well as plural, even while recognizing we are throwing away the
specificity between singular vs plural in order to be gender-neutral.  OK,
fair deal.  I can embrace that with all our heart.

 

My question please is for hipster Spanish speakers, with the gender-specific
articles la and el.  If the English-speaking counterparts are doing this,
how does a Latin-based language de-gender-ify itself?  We might end up in a
situation where objects can still keep genders but people cannot.  How weird
is that?  I like weird.

 

OK then, if we agree objects can keep their gender but humans cannot, what
about beasts, which wear their gender right out in the open?  If Spain
figures out a way around la and el for humans, such as making every human
title al or le for instance, what about el toro?  In that deplorable "sport"
(don't eeeeven get me going on that) everyone knows the gender of al tor..
Tor what?  Tore?  Tori?  Toru?

 

And since I am on that topic, let us think about people.  Surely the Spanish
have some things that just always have been and likely always will be male,
such as al matador.  Has there ever been a woman doing that?  Wait, don't
tell us, we retract the question, we don't even want to know.  Leave us to
assume not.

 

Since plenty of us here anticipate some kind of VR existence where we can
change genders with a line of code (how cool will that be?  And so useful
for so many situations!) we can give credence to the currently popular
notion that a person is whatever gender they say they is.

 

OK if that is true now, can we make it retroactively true?  If so, what
about our current references to people in the past for whom we have always
assumed a gender, such as the virgin Mary?  Do we know she identified as a
woman?  Didn't think so.  What do we do with any historical figure, for whom
we now do not know what their gender is?

 

Spanish speakers among us, what are you doing with your language?

 

spike 

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From danust2012 at gmail.com  Sat Oct 29 16:18:20 2016
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2016 09:18:20 -0700
Subject: [ExI] language question
In-Reply-To: <000401d231fa$0d6cb9e0$28462da0$@att.net>
References: <000401d231fa$0d6cb9e0$28462da0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <06D87E2C-E3BC-4B59-AB1A-7AEE954855E1@gmail.com>

On Oct 29, 2016, at 8:35 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> 
> Americans are struggling to de-gender our language to make it more inclusive.  I am all in favor of it; have been doing that for years in various ways, such as using she and her as the gender-nonspecific form rather than the more traditional he and his.  This works even if we actually do know the gender of the person, even if it introduces awkwardness (?the rapist left a semen-stained undergarment when she fled the scene?)
>  
> We are hearing another awkward compromise where we use the traditionally genderless term ?they? in place of the clumsy ?he or she? and ?their? in place of ?his or her.?  We pretend that ?they? and ?their? can be singular as well as plural, even while recognizing we are throwing away the specificity between singular vs plural in order to be gender-neutral.  OK, fair deal.  I can embrace that with all our heart.
>  
> My question please is for hipster Spanish speakers, with the gender-specific articles la and el.  If the English-speaking counterparts are doing this, how does a Latin-based language de-gender-ify itself?  We might end up in a situation where objects can still keep genders but people cannot.  How weird is that?  I like weird.
>  
> OK then, if we agree objects can keep their gender but humans cannot, what about beasts, which wear their gender right out in the open?  If Spain figures out a way around la and el for humans, such as making every human title al or le for instance, what about el toro?  In that deplorable ?sport? (don?t eeeeven get me going on that) everyone knows the gender of al tor?.  Tor what?  Tore?  Tori?  Toru?
>  
> And since I am on that topic, let us think about people.  Surely the Spanish have some things that just always have been and likely always will be male, such as al matador.  Has there ever been a woman doing that?  Wait, don?t tell us, we retract the question, we don?t even want to know.  Leave us to assume not.
>  
> Since plenty of us here anticipate some kind of VR existence where we can change genders with a line of code (how cool will that be?  And so useful for so many situations!) we can give credence to the currently popular notion that a person is whatever gender they say they is.
>  
> OK if that is true now, can we make it retroactively true?  If so, what about our current references to people in the past for whom we have always assumed a gender, such as the virgin Mary?  Do we know she identified as a woman?  Didn?t think so.  What do we do with any historical figure, for whom we now do not know what their gender is?
>  
> Spanish speakers among us, what are you doing with your language?

I'm not fluent in Spanish, but languages with genders for nouns... well, this doesn't seem to directly map onto ideas of gender in humans. For instance, German has three genders and the word 'M?dchen' is neuter -- not feminine. (The word is usually translated as 'girl.') Germans seem to have no problem understanding that 'das M?dchen' refers to a female.

By the way, using 'they' as a genderless pronoun goes back centuries. It's actually later grammarians who inveighed against it. Losing specificity didn't seem to bother folks back then. In fact, every language has ambiguities and these are often dealt with by just adding more info or relying on context.

For instance, if I say 'we went to the party,' does that mean 'you and I went to the party' or 'some other people (not including you) and I went to the party' or 'you, some other people, and I went to the party'? In many situations, that's ambiguous and the listener has to ask for more information if 'they';) are unsure. 

Regards,

Dan
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From giulio at gmail.com  Sat Oct 29 16:21:49 2016
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2016 18:21:49 +0200
Subject: [ExI] language question
In-Reply-To: <000401d231fa$0d6cb9e0$28462da0$@att.net>
References: <000401d231fa$0d6cb9e0$28462da0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAKTCJye_VKW6t-NPUru=Vigm8h=uXXj1dg6sKPOWMC1ZcXY2TQ@mail.gmail.com>

I think the only convention that make sense and is totally fair to
everyone is that everyone uses his own gender for generic pronouns,
plurals etc. (I am using this convention here). A man says "the reader
can form his opinion" and a woman says "the reader can form her
opinion." In Spanish a man says "todos los aficionados" and a woman
says "todas las aficionadas" for "all fans." Of course by "his own
gender" I mean "the gender he identifies with."

This is the convention I follow, so that I use he, his, him, el, los
to talk about persons of unspecified gender and groups of mixed
gender. A woman who follows this convention uses she, her, la, las.
The convention is fair and symmetric (I think it's the only convention
that is guaranteed to be fair and symmetric) and I recommend it.

I react very strongly to the politically correct bigots who want me to
change my choice. Follow your choice, and let me follow mine.

On Sat, Oct 29, 2016 at 5:35 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> Americans are struggling to de-gender our language to make it more
> inclusive.  I am all in favor of it; have been doing that for years in
> various ways, such as using she and her as the gender-nonspecific form
> rather than the more traditional he and his.  This works even if we actually
> do know the gender of the person, even if it introduces awkwardness (?the
> rapist left a semen-stained undergarment when she fled the scene?)
>
>
>
> We are hearing another awkward compromise where we use the traditionally
> genderless term ?they? in place of the clumsy ?he or she? and ?their? in
> place of ?his or her.?  We pretend that ?they? and ?their? can be singular
> as well as plural, even while recognizing we are throwing away the
> specificity between singular vs plural in order to be gender-neutral.  OK,
> fair deal.  I can embrace that with all our heart.
>
>
>
> My question please is for hipster Spanish speakers, with the gender-specific
> articles la and el.  If the English-speaking counterparts are doing this,
> how does a Latin-based language de-gender-ify itself?  We might end up in a
> situation where objects can still keep genders but people cannot.  How weird
> is that?  I like weird.
>
>
>
> OK then, if we agree objects can keep their gender but humans cannot, what
> about beasts, which wear their gender right out in the open?  If Spain
> figures out a way around la and el for humans, such as making every human
> title al or le for instance, what about el toro?  In that deplorable ?sport?
> (don?t eeeeven get me going on that) everyone knows the gender of al tor?.
> Tor what?  Tore?  Tori?  Toru?
>
>
>
> And since I am on that topic, let us think about people.  Surely the Spanish
> have some things that just always have been and likely always will be male,
> such as al matador.  Has there ever been a woman doing that?  Wait, don?t
> tell us, we retract the question, we don?t even want to know.  Leave us to
> assume not.
>
>
>
> Since plenty of us here anticipate some kind of VR existence where we can
> change genders with a line of code (how cool will that be?  And so useful
> for so many situations!) we can give credence to the currently popular
> notion that a person is whatever gender they say they is.
>
>
>
> OK if that is true now, can we make it retroactively true?  If so, what
> about our current references to people in the past for whom we have always
> assumed a gender, such as the virgin Mary?  Do we know she identified as a
> woman?  Didn?t think so.  What do we do with any historical figure, for whom
> we now do not know what their gender is?
>
>
>
> Spanish speakers among us, what are you doing with your language?
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>



From interzone at gmail.com  Sat Oct 29 16:28:55 2016
From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio)
Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2016 12:28:55 -0400
Subject: [ExI] language question
In-Reply-To: <CAKTCJye_VKW6t-NPUru=Vigm8h=uXXj1dg6sKPOWMC1ZcXY2TQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <000401d231fa$0d6cb9e0$28462da0$@att.net>
 <CAKTCJye_VKW6t-NPUru=Vigm8h=uXXj1dg6sKPOWMC1ZcXY2TQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJrqPH_HCQADs8kUT4CUVrvJQ+S69HMERA1Ea-AMfz1-wq=zQQ@mail.gmail.com>

I also utilize this approach, and strongly agree with  your comments on the
PC angle.

On Oct 29, 2016 12:23 PM, "Giulio Prisco" <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:

> I think the only convention that make sense and is totally fair to
> everyone is that everyone uses his own gender for generic pronouns,
> plurals etc. (I am using this convention here). A man says "the reader
> can form his opinion" and a woman says "the reader can form her
> opinion." In Spanish a man says "todos los aficionados" and a woman
> says "todas las aficionadas" for "all fans." Of course by "his own
> gender" I mean "the gender he identifies with."
>
> This is the convention I follow, so that I use he, his, him, el, los
> to talk about persons of unspecified gender and groups of mixed
> gender. A woman who follows this convention uses she, her, la, las.
> The convention is fair and symmetric (I think it's the only convention
> that is guaranteed to be fair and symmetric) and I recommend it.
>
> I react very strongly to the politically correct bigots who want me to
> change my choice. Follow your choice, and let me follow mine.
>
> On Sat, Oct 29, 2016 at 5:35 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> > Americans are struggling to de-gender our language to make it more
> > inclusive.  I am all in favor of it; have been doing that for years in
> > various ways, such as using she and her as the gender-nonspecific form
> > rather than the more traditional he and his.  This works even if we
> actually
> > do know the gender of the person, even if it introduces awkwardness (?the
> > rapist left a semen-stained undergarment when she fled the scene?)
> >
> >
> >
> > We are hearing another awkward compromise where we use the traditionally
> > genderless term ?they? in place of the clumsy ?he or she? and ?their? in
> > place of ?his or her.?  We pretend that ?they? and ?their? can be
> singular
> > as well as plural, even while recognizing we are throwing away the
> > specificity between singular vs plural in order to be gender-neutral.
> OK,
> > fair deal.  I can embrace that with all our heart.
> >
> >
> >
> > My question please is for hipster Spanish speakers, with the
> gender-specific
> > articles la and el.  If the English-speaking counterparts are doing this,
> > how does a Latin-based language de-gender-ify itself?  We might end up
> in a
> > situation where objects can still keep genders but people cannot.  How
> weird
> > is that?  I like weird.
> >
> >
> >
> > OK then, if we agree objects can keep their gender but humans cannot,
> what
> > about beasts, which wear their gender right out in the open?  If Spain
> > figures out a way around la and el for humans, such as making every human
> > title al or le for instance, what about el toro?  In that deplorable
> ?sport?
> > (don?t eeeeven get me going on that) everyone knows the gender of al
> tor?.
> > Tor what?  Tore?  Tori?  Toru?
> >
> >
> >
> > And since I am on that topic, let us think about people.  Surely the
> Spanish
> > have some things that just always have been and likely always will be
> male,
> > such as al matador.  Has there ever been a woman doing that?  Wait, don?t
> > tell us, we retract the question, we don?t even want to know.  Leave us
> to
> > assume not.
> >
> >
> >
> > Since plenty of us here anticipate some kind of VR existence where we can
> > change genders with a line of code (how cool will that be?  And so useful
> > for so many situations!) we can give credence to the currently popular
> > notion that a person is whatever gender they say they is.
> >
> >
> >
> > OK if that is true now, can we make it retroactively true?  If so, what
> > about our current references to people in the past for whom we have
> always
> > assumed a gender, such as the virgin Mary?  Do we know she identified as
> a
> > woman?  Didn?t think so.  What do we do with any historical figure, for
> whom
> > we now do not know what their gender is?
> >
> >
> >
> > Spanish speakers among us, what are you doing with your language?
> >
> >
> >
> > spike
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > extropy-chat mailing list
> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From lubkin at unreasonable.com  Sat Oct 29 16:16:35 2016
From: lubkin at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin)
Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2016 12:16:35 -0400
Subject: [ExI] language question
In-Reply-To: <000401d231fa$0d6cb9e0$28462da0$@att.net>
References: <000401d231fa$0d6cb9e0$28462da0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <201610291644.u9TGiQpY026739@ziaspace.com>

Spike wrote:

>We are hearing another awkward compromise where we use the 
>traditionally genderless term "they" in place of the clumsy "he or 
>she" and "their" in place of "his or her."  We pretend that "they" 
>and "their" can be singular as well as plural, even while 
>recognizing we are throwing away the specificity between singular vs 
>plural in order to be gender-neutral.  OK, fair deal.  I can embrace 
>that with all our heart.

The singular 'they' is nothing new. It has been around for many 
centuries. It is seen in the works of Shakespeare, Austen, Dickens, 
Clemens, Thackeray, Orwell, and Lubkin.


-- David.



From spike66 at att.net  Sat Oct 29 16:38:07 2016
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2016 09:38:07 -0700
Subject: [ExI] language question
In-Reply-To: <CAKTCJye_VKW6t-NPUru=Vigm8h=uXXj1dg6sKPOWMC1ZcXY2TQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <000401d231fa$0d6cb9e0$28462da0$@att.net>
 <CAKTCJye_VKW6t-NPUru=Vigm8h=uXXj1dg6sKPOWMC1ZcXY2TQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <006c01d23202$d663e500$832baf00$@att.net>


>... On Behalf Of Giulio Prisco
Subject: Re: [ExI] language question

>...I think the only convention that make sense and is totally fair to everyone is that everyone uses his own gender for generic pronouns, plurals etc. (I am using this convention here). A man says "the reader can form his opinion" and a woman says "the reader can form her opinion." In Spanish a man says "todos los aficionados" and a woman says "todas las aficionadas" for "all fans." Of course by "his own gender" I mean "the gender he identifies with."  Giulio

...


Cool!  This is why I hang out with you objects: you teach me things.  Thanks Giuli... Giulii?

OK I agree that system makes sense, but I disagree with your words 3 through 10 in your first sentence.  I could think of another protocol which makes just as much sense and has some advantages: switch the gender-specific pronoun to the opposite one from which one identifies.  Some will argue it is absurd to switch the gender specificity while others will embrace the notion, ideally splitting the crowd approximately in half.  That way, the reader still cannot determine either the gender or gender identity of the writer based on how they uses their pronouns.

Living in the 21st century: ain't it fun?  Oh it's a blast; we am having such a great time.  We crack us up.

spike




From lubkin at unreasonable.com  Sat Oct 29 16:54:13 2016
From: lubkin at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin)
Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2016 12:54:13 -0400
Subject: [ExI] language question
In-Reply-To: <06D87E2C-E3BC-4B59-AB1A-7AEE954855E1@gmail.com>
References: <000401d231fa$0d6cb9e0$28462da0$@att.net>
 <06D87E2C-E3BC-4B59-AB1A-7AEE954855E1@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <201610291654.u9TGsZu1020634@ziaspace.com>

Dan TheBookMan wrote:

>For instance, if I say 'we went to the party,' does that mean 'you 
>and I went to the party' or 'some other people (not including you) 
>and I went to the party' or 'you, some other people, and I went to 
>the party'? In many situations, that's ambiguous and the listener 
>has to ask for more information if 'they';) are unsure.

I love Tok Pisin, which makes that distinction, has dual and trial 
forms, and doesn't consider sex.

If the universe is (you, me, Spike, Gina, Keith) and I'm talking to you,

me + Spike = mitupela (i.e., me two fella)
me + you = yumitupela (you me two fella)

me + Spike + Gina = mitripela (me three fella)
me + Spike + Gina + Keith = mipela (me fella)

If I'm speaking to you and Spike, it's

me + you + Spike = yumitripela (you me three fella)

If I'm speaking to you, Spike, and Gina, it's

me + you + Spike + Gina = yumipela (you me fella) OR yumi (you me)

I'm not sure what form they use for a trial or plural that includes 
the speaker, the listener, and others not present.


-- David.




From giulio at gmail.com  Sat Oct 29 17:07:39 2016
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2016 19:07:39 +0200
Subject: [ExI] language question
In-Reply-To: <006c01d23202$d663e500$832baf00$@att.net>
References: <000401d231fa$0d6cb9e0$28462da0$@att.net>
 <CAKTCJye_VKW6t-NPUru=Vigm8h=uXXj1dg6sKPOWMC1ZcXY2TQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <006c01d23202$d663e500$832baf00$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAKTCJyfat85Su1S=dtzGhL-6UcmfoSaxdX2ZSDGKURMqWrKVbw@mail.gmail.com>

Spike, yes, your convention also makes sense. In Belgium many people
(of the older generation) are almost perfectly bilingual (French and
Dutch) and I have seen a convention in place, where in a two person
conversation everyone speaks the native language of the other. Same
kind of thing.

But then there is an even better convention: everyone just speaks
however the f# he wants. Now, that's a really good rule...

On Sat, Oct 29, 2016 at 6:38 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>
>>... On Behalf Of Giulio Prisco
> Subject: Re: [ExI] language question
>
>>...I think the only convention that make sense and is totally fair to everyone is that everyone uses his own gender for generic pronouns, plurals etc. (I am using this convention here). A man says "the reader can form his opinion" and a woman says "the reader can form her opinion." In Spanish a man says "todos los aficionados" and a woman says "todas las aficionadas" for "all fans." Of course by "his own gender" I mean "the gender he identifies with."  Giulio
>
> ...
>
>
> Cool!  This is why I hang out with you objects: you teach me things.  Thanks Giuli... Giulii?
>
> OK I agree that system makes sense, but I disagree with your words 3 through 10 in your first sentence.  I could think of another protocol which makes just as much sense and has some advantages: switch the gender-specific pronoun to the opposite one from which one identifies.  Some will argue it is absurd to switch the gender specificity while others will embrace the notion, ideally splitting the crowd approximately in half.  That way, the reader still cannot determine either the gender or gender identity of the writer based on how they uses their pronouns.
>
> Living in the 21st century: ain't it fun?  Oh it's a blast; we am having such a great time.  We crack us up.
>
> spike
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat



From spike66 at att.net  Sat Oct 29 16:59:36 2016
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2016 09:59:36 -0700
Subject: [ExI] language question
In-Reply-To: <201610291644.u9TGiQpY026739@ziaspace.com>
References: <000401d231fa$0d6cb9e0$28462da0$@att.net>
 <201610291644.u9TGiQpY026739@ziaspace.com>
Message-ID: <000401d23205$d4a6c450$7df44cf0$@att.net>


>.. On Behalf Of David Lubkin
Subject: Re: [ExI] language question

Spike wrote:

>We are hearing another awkward compromise where we use the 
>traditionally genderless term "they" in place of the clumsy "he or she" 
>and "their" in place of "his or her."  ....  I can embrace that with 
>all our heart.

>...The singular 'they' is nothing new. It has been around for many
centuries. It is seen in the works of Shakespeare, Austen, Dickens, Clemens,
Thackeray, Orwell, and Lubkin. -- David.

_______________________________________________

Ja, I keep hearing this "Shakespeare" thrown around as if she is some kind
of authority on the English language.  And this "Austen," who made him the
big Mr. Know-It-All?  We am so puzzled.

We are allowed some lighthearted banter considering the difficult time in
which we find ourself.

spike



From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sat Oct 29 17:29:40 2016
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2016 12:29:40 -0500
Subject: [ExI] language question
In-Reply-To: <000401d23205$d4a6c450$7df44cf0$@att.net>
References: <000401d231fa$0d6cb9e0$28462da0$@att.net>
 <201610291644.u9TGiQpY026739@ziaspace.com>
 <000401d23205$d4a6c450$7df44cf0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbwFBVT1sbODnArkz-57Za5mXPEvyw6T=ND3WFkD3LyEg@mail.gmail.com>

I wish to add nothing to this conversation and am doing so.  But it teased
my memory and I found this online:

In line with Spike's attention to parentheses, as noted earlier, do
yourself an enormous favor and re-read the following.  If you have not read
this as yet, be it known that it is a perfect ruby of writing on the
vicissitudes and vagaries of language, as presented by the inimitable Mark
Twain:

http://www.kombu.de/twain-2.htm

On Sat, Oct 29, 2016 at 11:59 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

>
> >.. On Behalf Of David Lubkin
> Subject: Re: [ExI] language question
>
> Spike wrote:
>
> >We are hearing another awkward compromise where we use the
> >traditionally genderless term "they" in place of the clumsy "he or she"
> >and "their" in place of "his or her."  ....  I can embrace that with
> >all our heart.
>
> >...The singular 'they' is nothing new. It has been around for many
> centuries. It is seen in the works of Shakespeare, Austen, Dickens,
> Clemens,
> Thackeray, Orwell, and Lubkin. -- David.
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Ja, I keep hearing this "Shakespeare" thrown around as if she is some kind
> of authority on the English language.  And this "Austen," who made him the
> big Mr. Know-It-All?  We am so puzzled.
>
> We are allowed some lighthearted banter considering the difficult time in
> which we find ourself.
>
> spike
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From pharos at gmail.com  Sat Oct 29 18:33:15 2016
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2016 19:33:15 +0100
Subject: [ExI] language question
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEbwFBVT1sbODnArkz-57Za5mXPEvyw6T=ND3WFkD3LyEg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <000401d231fa$0d6cb9e0$28462da0$@att.net>
 <201610291644.u9TGiQpY026739@ziaspace.com>
 <000401d23205$d4a6c450$7df44cf0$@att.net>
 <CAO+xQEbwFBVT1sbODnArkz-57Za5mXPEvyw6T=ND3WFkD3LyEg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armgLaZN8o=t1Dwrx32F4-WcMrdNFO4u5mKAP-YwSK+69uA@mail.gmail.com>

On 29 October 2016 at 18:29, William Flynn Wallace  wrote:
> I wish to add nothing to this conversation and am doing so.  But it teased
> my memory and I found this online:
>
> In line with Spike's attention to parentheses, as noted earlier, do yourself
> an enormous favor and re-read the following.  If you have not read this as
> yet, be it known that it is a perfect ruby of writing on the vicissitudes
> and vagaries of language, as presented by the inimitable Mark Twain:
>
> http://www.kombu.de/twain-2.htm
>


Twain's description of German is very true.  I read a story that at
the UN the translations that you hear in the headphones usually run
along with the speaker. Except that when the German started speaking,
all the translators fell silent --- they were waiting on the verb to
turn up.

BillK


From johnkclark at gmail.com  Sun Oct 30 02:43:53 2016
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2016 22:43:53 -0400
Subject: [ExI] self driving truck
In-Reply-To: <00a901d22ee0$4b73d4c0$e25b7e40$@att.net>
References: <009c01d22ede$51fc6ac0$f5f54040$@att.net>
 <00a901d22ee0$4b73d4c0$e25b7e40$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv3Y_q3HfBjPY7hqKFj6q_XUMO0mvQywupEUajHcdnPBfQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Oct 25, 2016 at 12:53 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:


> ?> ?
> Cool!  So now we have a demonstration using an 18 wheeler:
>
>
>
> http://www.foxnews.com/auto/2016/10/25/ottos-self-driving-se
> mi-truck-made-beer-run.html
>

?It is cool, but I got to thinking about the social implications of
driver-less trucks and of AI in general. In the USA alone 4.1 million
people make their living driving a vehicle, those jobs are likely to go
away in the very near future. I think the next to go will likely be the 9.7
million who work in restaurants. Traditionally the fast food industry was
where somebody with no skills could still get a job, but not for long.
After that its
 bookkeepers, travel agents
? and?
legal aids
?.
And it's not just the unskilled that need to worry
? about the increased power of AI?
,  if I were a hedge fund manager I'd make as money now
?as I could ?
while I still
?had a job.
?
? ?

>From the start of the industrial revolution there has been a linear
relationship between wages the average person received and the increased
productivity cause by improved technology, but about 2002 that changed, the
amount of wealth produced still increase but real wages plateaued, and
since 2007 paychecks have actually declined. GDP has increased but median
income has not because the increase in wealth went exclusively to the top,
the richest 1% have as much money as the remaining 99%. And even among the
1% most of the increase in wealth went to the top 1% of the top 1% of the
top 1%.

As
? recently as ?2010 the richest 388 people in the world had as much money
as the poorest 3.6 Billion people, by 2014 the richest 85 did, in 2015 it
was 80, in the latest results made just this year the richest 62 people had
as much wealth as half of the entire human species, 3.6 Billion people.


Unless something is pushing in the opposite direction the advances in AI
are likely to accelerate this trend so before long fewer than 62 will be
required. But does anybody on this list think
?
nothing will push back? Does anybody think
? ?
this trend can continue without grave social unrest?  I don't. And I think
?
that
?
is the root cause of the anger
?
in
?
the electorate and the reason some bizarre
?
illogical
?
dangerous people may be voted into office in democracies all over the
world.

So what is to be done? I hate to say it because it stands
against everything I've believed since I was a teenager but unless somebody
has a better idea I'm starting to think it may be time to consider some
form of the nanny state. After all, no matter what you job is sooner or
later a machine will be able to do it better than you can. And it will
probably happen sooner than you expect, that's why it's called a
singularity.

 John K Clark?

.
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sun Oct 30 14:46:41 2016
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2016 09:46:41 -0500
Subject: [ExI] self driving truck
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv3Y_q3HfBjPY7hqKFj6q_XUMO0mvQywupEUajHcdnPBfQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <009c01d22ede$51fc6ac0$f5f54040$@att.net>
 <00a901d22ee0$4b73d4c0$e25b7e40$@att.net>
 <CAJPayv3Y_q3HfBjPY7hqKFj6q_XUMO0mvQywupEUajHcdnPBfQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEY=C1RB+wm3T-Y+rNa-kvKyumwTQscVCF-LcoFjVX9oLg@mail.gmail.com>

I'm starting to think it may be time to consider some form of the nanny
state.  john

On Sat, Oct 29, 2016 at 9:43 PM, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tue, Oct 25, 2016 at 12:53 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>
>
>> ?> ?
>> Cool!  So now we have a demonstration using an 18 wheeler:
>>
>>
>>
>> http://www.foxnews.com/auto/2016/10/25/ottos-self-driving-se
>> mi-truck-made-beer-run.html
>>
>
> ?It is cool, but I got to thinking about the social implications of
> driver-less trucks and of AI in general. In the USA alone 4.1 million
> people make their living driving a vehicle, those jobs are likely to go
> away in the very near future. I think the next to go will likely be the 9.7
> million who work in restaurants. Traditionally the fast food industry was
> where somebody with no skills could still get a job, but not for long.
> After that its
>  bookkeepers, travel agents
> ? and?
> legal aids
> ?.
> And it's not just the unskilled that need to worry
> ? about the increased power of AI?
> ,  if I were a hedge fund manager I'd make as money now
> ?as I could ?
> while I still
> ?had a job.
> ?
> ? ?
>
> From the start of the industrial revolution there has been a linear
> relationship between wages the average person received and the increased
> productivity cause by improved technology, but about 2002 that changed, the
> amount of wealth produced still increase but real wages plateaued, and
> since 2007 paychecks have actually declined. GDP has increased but median
> income has not because the increase in wealth went exclusively to the top,
> the richest 1% have as much money as the remaining 99%. And even among the
> 1% most of the increase in wealth went to the top 1% of the top 1% of the
> top 1%.
>
> As
> ? recently as ?2010 the richest 388 people in the world had as much money
> as the poorest 3.6 Billion people, by 2014 the richest 85 did, in 2015 it
> was 80, in the latest results made just this year the richest 62 people had
> as much wealth as half of the entire human species, 3.6 Billion people.
>
>
> Unless something is pushing in the opposite direction the advances in AI
> are likely to accelerate this trend so before long fewer than 62 will be
> required. But does anybody on this list think
> ?
> nothing will push back? Does anybody think
> ? ?
> this trend can continue without grave social unrest?  I don't. And I think
> ?
> that
> ?
> is the root cause of the anger
> ?
> in
> ?
> the electorate and the reason some bizarre
> ?
> illogical
> ?
> dangerous people may be voted into office in democracies all over the
> world.
>
> So what is to be done? I hate to say it because it stands
> against everything I've believed since I was a teenager but unless somebody
> has a better idea I'm starting to think it may be time to consider some
> form of the nanny state. After all, no matter what you job is sooner or
> later a machine will be able to do it better than you can. And it will
> probably happen sooner than you expect, that's why it's called a
> singularity.
>
>  John K Clark?
>
> .
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Sun Oct 30 15:20:00 2016
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2016 11:20:00 -0400
Subject: [ExI] self driving truck
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEY=C1RB+wm3T-Y+rNa-kvKyumwTQscVCF-LcoFjVX9oLg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <009c01d22ede$51fc6ac0$f5f54040$@att.net>
 <00a901d22ee0$4b73d4c0$e25b7e40$@att.net>
 <CAJPayv3Y_q3HfBjPY7hqKFj6q_XUMO0mvQywupEUajHcdnPBfQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEY=C1RB+wm3T-Y+rNa-kvKyumwTQscVCF-LcoFjVX9oLg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv0wt-BN2X48iYVp+K8huvOFZtkP+d7aP0WMFtY_fYuqTQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Oct 30, 2016 at 10:46 AM, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com
> wrote:

?> ?
> I'm starting to think it may be time to consider some form of the nanny
> state.  john
>

?Unless somebody has a better idea of how to deal with the massive job loss
and the widening gap between the rich and the poor caused by the increase
in power of AI. So do you have a better idea?

  John K Clark
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sun Oct 30 15:34:36 2016
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2016 10:34:36 -0500
Subject: [ExI] self driving truck
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEY=C1RB+wm3T-Y+rNa-kvKyumwTQscVCF-LcoFjVX9oLg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <009c01d22ede$51fc6ac0$f5f54040$@att.net>
 <00a901d22ee0$4b73d4c0$e25b7e40$@att.net>
 <CAJPayv3Y_q3HfBjPY7hqKFj6q_XUMO0mvQywupEUajHcdnPBfQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEY=C1RB+wm3T-Y+rNa-kvKyumwTQscVCF-LcoFjVX9oLg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbe+M56YTDK062PFB7Dp-CZB9BxxFYD_Z1779grMaz9Gw@mail.gmail.com>

I'm starting to think it may be time to consider some form of the nanny
state.  john

(sorry about the premature sending)

What capabilities do people of IQ 85 and below have?  That's about 16% of
the population that isn't going to get a true high school degree, much less
a college one.  They can impress you with physical skills but not with
cognitive ones, the very ones needed for the future.

Throw in another 34%, IQ between 85 and 100, and you have a high school,
but not college degree.  These are not going to be upper level people in
any job.  Midlevel at best.

So what are we going to do with them in an AI world?  Most crime that we
hear about is blue collar - poor, unemployed, and perhaps unemployable.
Perhaps there would be less of it if we gave everybody a guaranteed income
(welfare feeds a lot of people but it doesn't pay most bills).

Frankly we have more people at every level than we need, so the long term
solution is to get them out of the gene pool without creating an evil,
authoritarian state.

There will be a lot of objections to paying people to stay home and watch
TV, but what else are we going to do with them?

bill w




On Sun, Oct 30, 2016 at 9:46 AM, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
wrote:

> I'm starting to think it may be time to consider some form of the nanny
> state.  john
>
> On Sat, Oct 29, 2016 at 9:43 PM, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, Oct 25, 2016 at 12:53 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> ?> ?
>>> Cool!  So now we have a demonstration using an 18 wheeler:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> http://www.foxnews.com/auto/2016/10/25/ottos-self-driving-se
>>> mi-truck-made-beer-run.html
>>>
>>
>> ?It is cool, but I got to thinking about the social implications of
>> driver-less trucks and of AI in general. In the USA alone 4.1 million
>> people make their living driving a vehicle, those jobs are likely to go
>> away in the very near future. I think the next to go will likely be the 9.7
>> million who work in restaurants. Traditionally the fast food industry was
>> where somebody with no skills could still get a job, but not for long.
>> After that its
>>  bookkeepers, travel agents
>> ? and?
>> legal aids
>> ?.
>> And it's not just the unskilled that need to worry
>> ? about the increased power of AI?
>> ,  if I were a hedge fund manager I'd make as money now
>> ?as I could ?
>> while I still
>> ?had a job.
>> ?
>> ? ?
>>
>> From the start of the industrial revolution there has been a linear
>> relationship between wages the average person received and the increased
>> productivity cause by improved technology, but about 2002 that changed, the
>> amount of wealth produced still increase but real wages plateaued, and
>> since 2007 paychecks have actually declined. GDP has increased but median
>> income has not because the increase in wealth went exclusively to the top,
>> the richest 1% have as much money as the remaining 99%. And even among the
>> 1% most of the increase in wealth went to the top 1% of the top 1% of the
>> top 1%.
>>
>> As
>> ? recently as ?2010 the richest 388 people in the world had as much money
>> as the poorest 3.6 Billion people, by 2014 the richest 85 did, in 2015 it
>> was 80, in the latest results made just this year the richest 62 people had
>> as much wealth as half of the entire human species, 3.6 Billion people.
>>
>>
>> Unless something is pushing in the opposite direction the advances in AI
>> are likely to accelerate this trend so before long fewer than 62 will be
>> required. But does anybody on this list think
>> ?
>> nothing will push back? Does anybody think
>> ? ?
>> this trend can continue without grave social unrest?  I don't. And I think
>> ?
>> that
>> ?
>> is the root cause of the anger
>> ?
>> in
>> ?
>> the electorate and the reason some bizarre
>> ?
>> illogical
>> ?
>> dangerous people may be voted into office in democracies all over the
>> world.
>>
>> So what is to be done? I hate to say it because it stands
>> against everything I've believed since I was a teenager but unless somebody
>> has a better idea I'm starting to think it may be time to consider some
>> form of the nanny state. After all, no matter what you job is sooner or
>> later a machine will be able to do it better than you can. And it will
>> probably happen sooner than you expect, that's why it's called a
>> singularity.
>>
>>  John K Clark?
>>
>> .
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
>>
>
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Sun Oct 30 17:23:12 2016
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2016 13:23:12 -0400
Subject: [ExI] self driving truck
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEbe+M56YTDK062PFB7Dp-CZB9BxxFYD_Z1779grMaz9Gw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <009c01d22ede$51fc6ac0$f5f54040$@att.net>
 <00a901d22ee0$4b73d4c0$e25b7e40$@att.net>
 <CAJPayv3Y_q3HfBjPY7hqKFj6q_XUMO0mvQywupEUajHcdnPBfQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEY=C1RB+wm3T-Y+rNa-kvKyumwTQscVCF-LcoFjVX9oLg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEbe+M56YTDK062PFB7Dp-CZB9BxxFYD_Z1779grMaz9Gw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv2FyAkkkMwPBBSu4a=NLbOJiqorbc_3_bxrhtYeJFXD2Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Oct 30, 2016 at 11:34 AM, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com
> wrote:

?> ?
> What capabilities do people of IQ 85 and below have?  That's about 16% of
> the population
>

?It's not just those with low IQs whose jobs will be eliminated by AI, this
will effect everyone, and if the computer revolution has taught us anything
it's that our intuition about what tasks are easy and what tasks are
difficult is completely wrong. It turns out that it takes much more
brainpower to tell the difference between a picture of a dog and a picture
of a cat than it does to play a good game of chess. Hedge fund managers
will be replaced before car repair mechanics, and vice-presidents of
Fortune 500 corporations will be replaced before watchsmiths. One of the
last professions to be replaced will probably be care of the elderly, a job
few would want even if the pay were better.



> ?> ?
> So what are we going to do with them in an AI world? Most crime that we
> hear about is blue collar - poor, unemployed, and perhaps unemployable.


?Yes and it's only a matter of ?
?time before ?everybody is unemployable. Pure libertarian dogma has no
answer to this problem, at least none I've seen, that's why I dared to
utter the dreaded words "nanny state". If somebody has a better idea I'm
all ears.

John K Clark







> Perhaps there would be less of it if we gave everybody a guaranteed income
> (welfare feeds a lot of people but it doesn't pay most bills).
>
> Frankly we have more people at every level than we need, so the long term
> solution is to get them out of the gene pool without creating an evil,
> authoritarian state.
>
> There will be a lot of objections to paying people to stay home and watch
> TV, but what else are we going to do with them?
>
> bill w
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Oct 30, 2016 at 9:46 AM, William Flynn Wallace <
> foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I'm starting to think it may be time to consider some form of the nanny
>> state.  john
>>
>> On Sat, Oct 29, 2016 at 9:43 PM, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, Oct 25, 2016 at 12:53 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> ?> ?
>>>> Cool!  So now we have a demonstration using an 18 wheeler:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> http://www.foxnews.com/auto/2016/10/25/ottos-self-driving-se
>>>> mi-truck-made-beer-run.html
>>>>
>>>
>>> ?It is cool, but I got to thinking about the social implications of
>>> driver-less trucks and of AI in general. In the USA alone 4.1 million
>>> people make their living driving a vehicle, those jobs are likely to go
>>> away in the very near future. I think the next to go will likely be the 9.7
>>> million who work in restaurants. Traditionally the fast food industry was
>>> where somebody with no skills could still get a job, but not for long.
>>> After that its
>>>  bookkeepers, travel agents
>>> ? and?
>>> legal aids
>>> ?.
>>> And it's not just the unskilled that need to worry
>>> ? about the increased power of AI?
>>> ,  if I were a hedge fund manager I'd make as money now
>>> ?as I could ?
>>> while I still
>>> ?had a job.
>>> ?
>>> ? ?
>>>
>>> From the start of the industrial revolution there has been a linear
>>> relationship between wages the average person received and the increased
>>> productivity cause by improved technology, but about 2002 that changed, the
>>> amount of wealth produced still increase but real wages plateaued, and
>>> since 2007 paychecks have actually declined. GDP has increased but median
>>> income has not because the increase in wealth went exclusively to the top,
>>> the richest 1% have as much money as the remaining 99%. And even among the
>>> 1% most of the increase in wealth went to the top 1% of the top 1% of the
>>> top 1%.
>>>
>>> As
>>> ? recently as ?2010 the richest 388 people in the world had as much
>>> money as the poorest 3.6 Billion people, by 2014 the richest 85 did, in
>>> 2015 it was 80, in the latest results made just this year the richest 62
>>> people had as much wealth as half of the entire human species, 3.6 Billion
>>> people.
>>>
>>>
>>> Unless something is pushing in the opposite direction the advances in AI
>>> are likely to accelerate this trend so before long fewer than 62 will be
>>> required. But does anybody on this list think
>>> ?
>>> nothing will push back? Does anybody think
>>> ? ?
>>> this trend can continue without grave social unrest?  I don't. And I
>>> think
>>> ?
>>> that
>>> ?
>>> is the root cause of the anger
>>> ?
>>> in
>>> ?
>>> the electorate and the reason some bizarre
>>> ?
>>> illogical
>>> ?
>>> dangerous people may be voted into office in democracies all over the
>>> world.
>>>
>>> So what is to be done? I hate to say it because it stands
>>> against everything I've believed since I was a teenager but unless somebody
>>> has a better idea I'm starting to think it may be time to consider some
>>> form of the nanny state. After all, no matter what you job is sooner or
>>> later a machine will be able to do it better than you can. And it will
>>> probably happen sooner than you expect, that's why it's called a
>>> singularity.
>>>
>>>  John K Clark?
>>>
>>> .
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>
>>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From pharos at gmail.com  Sun Oct 30 17:44:27 2016
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2016 17:44:27 +0000
Subject: [ExI] self driving truck
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEbe+M56YTDK062PFB7Dp-CZB9BxxFYD_Z1779grMaz9Gw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <009c01d22ede$51fc6ac0$f5f54040$@att.net>
 <00a901d22ee0$4b73d4c0$e25b7e40$@att.net>
 <CAJPayv3Y_q3HfBjPY7hqKFj6q_XUMO0mvQywupEUajHcdnPBfQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEY=C1RB+wm3T-Y+rNa-kvKyumwTQscVCF-LcoFjVX9oLg@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAL_armhp6r3a8krLnVgs7Yq7ub7jrAaD3v4V_qSnpwUFrXgkbg@mail.gmail.com>

On 30 October 2016 at 15:34, William Flynn Wallace wrote:
> What capabilities do people of IQ 85 and below have?  That's about 16% of
> the population that isn't going to get a true high school degree, much less
> a college one.  They can impress you with physical skills but not with
> cognitive ones, the very ones needed for the future.
>
> Throw in another 34%, IQ between 85 and 100, and you have a high school, but
> not college degree.  These are not going to be upper level people in any
> job.  Midlevel at best.
>
> So what are we going to do with them in an AI world?  Most crime that we
> hear about is blue collar - poor, unemployed, and perhaps unemployable.
> Perhaps there would be less of it if we gave everybody a guaranteed income
> (welfare feeds a lot of people but it doesn't pay most bills).
>
> Frankly we have more people at every level than we need, so the long term
> solution is to get them out of the gene pool without creating an evil,
> authoritarian state.
>
> There will be a lot of objections to paying people to stay home and watch
> TV, but what else are we going to do with them?
>


Remember, under our present system they can all vote! And they are not
voting because they understand complex diplomatic or financial issues.
They may well object to the plans that government makes for them.
That's a problem with democracy. We don't get tyrants or dictators in
government, but our alternatives still end up being pretty bad.


BillK


From spike66 at att.net  Sun Oct 30 18:01:13 2016
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2016 11:01:13 -0700
Subject: [ExI] self driving truck
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv2FyAkkkMwPBBSu4a=NLbOJiqorbc_3_bxrhtYeJFXD2Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <009c01d22ede$51fc6ac0$f5f54040$@att.net>
 <00a901d22ee0$4b73d4c0$e25b7e40$@att.net>
 <CAJPayv3Y_q3HfBjPY7hqKFj6q_XUMO0mvQywupEUajHcdnPBfQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEY=C1RB+wm3T-Y+rNa-kvKyumwTQscVCF-LcoFjVX9oLg@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <020301d232d7$9afdafc0$d0f90f40$@att.net>

 

 

>? On Behalf Of John Clark



 

?>?It's not just those with low IQs whose jobs will be eliminated by AI, this will effect everyone, and if the computer revolution has taught us anything it's that our intuition about what tasks are easy and what tasks are difficult is completely wrong?

 

 

Ja.  I have lived to witness the science of aerodynamics become completely encoded; so much theory became obsolete.  Humans do not need to master the intricacies of the science.  Correct aerodynamic calculations can be done by people who know not what a shock wave is or why a shock wave can reflect off of an oblique wave.  A person with a solid high school education can set up the model and run it.

 

I was drawn to controls engineering because it has such cool theory, takes years to master even a subset of it, and oh the mathematical simultaneous ugliness and beauty of that field is astonishing.  But classical control practice is becoming extinct, no longer needed, because we have Matlab and Simulink.  A good code jockey can set up a good feedback model and run a jillion cases overnight, figure out the proper gradients, find a control system that is close to optimal, done.  They need not know how a root locus plot works or why, a Nichols chart isn?t worth five cents to them.  Nyquist schmyquist, it?s all in the past.

 

 

>? It turns out that it takes much more brainpower to tell the difference between a picture of a dog and a picture of a cat than it does to play a good game of chess?

 

Ja.  So much engineering is analogous to chess.

 

>? Hedge fund managers will be replaced before car repair mechanics?

 

Hmmm, car repair has changed a lot too.  Now they plug in a diagnostic computer, the software tells the mechanic exactly which subsystem needs replacing, done.  Experiment, go to the local repair shop at the end of the workday and notice the mechanic: she is mostly clean.  If you meant repair after a fender-bender, sure.  Replacing wheel bearings and all that: have you noticed how durable bearings have become?  That used to be a troublesome job we shade-tree mechanics needed to do every few years.  No more: bearings are sealed now, and I don?t know what the heck they did in materials science to make them so durable they never seem to wear out.  Steel is amazing stuff, when you put in a little of this and a little of that.   

 

 

>?and vice-presidents of Fortune 500 corporations will be replaced before watchsmiths?

 

Indeed?  Define this term ?watchsmith? please?

 

 

>? One of the last professions to be replaced will probably be care of the elderly, a job few would want even if the pay were better?

 

We can do that better with automation too, not changing diapers but being software companions.  This is still heavy on my mind, and my progress to date has been dismal.

 

 

?>?Yes and it's only a matter of ?

?time before ?everybody is unemployable. Pure libertarian dogma has no answer to this problem, at least none I've seen, that's why I dared to utter the dreaded words "nanny state". If somebody has a better idea I'm all ears?John K Clark

 

My best guess would be to replace nanny-state with nanny-county and nanny-city.  Emphasize working with the unemployed, distribute power widely to reduce temptation for corruption.  The higher the central charity or redistribution goes, the more it becomes a cherry-red target for the corrupt.

 

spike

 

 

 

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From bmd54321 at gmail.com  Sun Oct 30 22:31:46 2016
From: bmd54321 at gmail.com (Brian Manning Delaney)
Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2016 18:31:46 -0400
Subject: [ExI] language question
In-Reply-To: <000401d231fa$0d6cb9e0$28462da0$@att.net>
References: <000401d231fa$0d6cb9e0$28462da0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <54951495-4508-9597-a44a-b8bb8e8d7b9c@gmail.com>


El 2016-10-29 a las 11:35, spike escribi?:

> Spanish speakers among us, what are you doing with your language?

I spent several months in Bogot? and picked up Spanish pretty well, and 
also observed the speech patterns of Colombians. There, and, I believe, 
everywhere in the Spanish-speaking countries of the New World, people 
don't seem to have time to think about the gender-neutrality of their 
language because the language police section of their souls is filled 
with the goal of making sure people say "estadounidense" instead of 
"americano/a" (and it's not because "estadounidense" is gender-neutral...).

Brian



From johnkclark at gmail.com  Sun Oct 30 22:41:28 2016
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2016 18:41:28 -0400
Subject: [ExI] self driving truck
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armhp6r3a8krLnVgs7Yq7ub7jrAaD3v4V_qSnpwUFrXgkbg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <009c01d22ede$51fc6ac0$f5f54040$@att.net>
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 <CAJPayv3Y_q3HfBjPY7hqKFj6q_XUMO0mvQywupEUajHcdnPBfQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEY=C1RB+wm3T-Y+rNa-kvKyumwTQscVCF-LcoFjVX9oLg@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAJPayv2H36UfqUiZmKPvhfUXzs_h=M=b_9KE2BBXg+eiomMY0g@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Oct 30, 2016  BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:

?> ?
> Remember, under our present system they can all vote! And they are not
> voting because they understand complex diplomatic or financial issues.
>

?I've noticed.


> ?> ?
> with democracy. We don't get tyrants or dictators in
> ?
> government


?I'll let you know next week if that's true.?

?

 John K Clark?
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Mon Oct 31 00:30:48 2016
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2016 19:30:48 -0500
Subject: [ExI] that's a big battery!
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZpGPOE3Ued-zeTaVybQfic-7pvOuM3m84fChETu0evQQ@mail.gmail.com>

? Within five years, according to the white paper, Uber expects the market
to produce a fully electric, vertical-takeoff-and-landing plane that can
fly 100 miles at about 150 mph, carrying multiple passengers and a pilot.
 (from wired.com)?
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From spike66 at att.net  Mon Oct 31 00:44:09 2016
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2016 17:44:09 -0700
Subject: [ExI] that's a big battery!
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEZpGPOE3Ued-zeTaVybQfic-7pvOuM3m84fChETu0evQQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEZpGPOE3Ued-zeTaVybQfic-7pvOuM3m84fChETu0evQQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <008d01d2330f$e48679f0$ad936dd0$@att.net>

 

 

From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace
Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2016 5:31 PM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: [ExI] that's a big battery!

 

? Within five years, according to the white paper, Uber expects the market to produce a fully electric, vertical-takeoff-and-landing plane that can fly 100 miles at about 150 mph, carrying multiple passengers and a pilot.  (from wired.com <http://wired.com> )?

 

 

 

OK I expect it will not.  Not five years from now, not later than that.  

 

Vertical takeoff and landing takes crazy high power, not compatible with stored electric energy.  Internal combustion is hard to beat for carrying energy aloft.  I don?t think we are close to fully electric aircraft.  

 

A 40 passenger VTOL is difficult even with modern turbojet engines such as those found on the V-22 tilt-rotor.  Those engines are lower efficiency than high-bypass turbos because they need to produce peak power on takeoff.

 

spike

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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Mon Oct 31 01:21:39 2016
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2016 21:21:39 -0400
Subject: [ExI] self driving truck
In-Reply-To: <020301d232d7$9afdafc0$d0f90f40$@att.net>
References: <009c01d22ede$51fc6ac0$f5f54040$@att.net>
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Message-ID: <CAJPayv0Bsiwevz_gy77N0fKqZWjjQw_efUob4D2EjFKQmipk-g@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Oct 30, 2016 at 2:01 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:


> >
>> ?>?
>> ? Hedge fund managers will be replaced before car repair mechanics?
>
>
> ?> ?
> Hmmm, car repair has changed a lot too.  Now they plug in a diagnostic
> computer, the software tells the mechanic exactly which subsystem needs
> replacing, done.
>

?You're not really done, you might know what the problem is but the car
still isn't fixed.
It's obvious that a new windshield wiper blade is required but the machine
must calculate how the blade should be manipulate so that it is removed and
how the new part must be manipulated so that it is installed, and then
after if figure out what it needs to do it must actually do the
manipulations without breaking anything. And if its going to be economical
the robot mechanic had better be able to do a lot of things besides change
windshield wiper blades.  ?



> ?>
>> ?> ?
>> ?Yes and it's only a matter of ??time before ?everybody is unemployable.
>> Pure libertarian dogma has no answer to this problem, at least none I've
>> seen, that's why I dared to utter the dreaded words "nanny state". If
>> somebody has a better idea I'm all ears?John K Clark
>
>

?> ?
> My best guess would be to replace nanny-state with nanny-county and
> nanny-city.
>

?What's the difference??



?> ?
Emphasize working with the unemployed

?Working with the unemployed to do what? And what happens when everybody is
unemployed??



> ?> ?
> distribute power widely


?Yes, the concentration of power (and money is power) is the problem, but
if not the nanny state how will that concentration be broken? ?

?62 people having as much money as 3.6 Billion people is just asking for
crazy people to be elected as leaders and blood to run in the streets. T
he advance in AI
? will only accelerate this disturbing trend, in 4 or 5 years the number
could drop from 62 into the single digits. Imaging the anger that will
produce, imagine the sort of crazy people all those ?angry people will vote
for! Actually we don't need to imagine it, we can just look at the news.
  ?


> > The higher the central charity or redistribution goes, the more it
> becomes a cherry-red target for the corrupt.


?But the wealth certainly goes high so if the redistribution is to work it
must go high too, and that means it must be powerful and that means a
state. I don't think the poor can rely on the rich surrendering to
the better angels of their nature and voluntarily feeding the poor;
recently India's richest man (and #5 on that list of 62) built the most
expensive private house in the world, it cost 1.5 Billion dollars and he
decided to build it right in the middle of the slums of
Mumbai
?, India's poorest ?city, where an orphanage once stood. It's almost as if
he's deliberately thumbing his noise at the poor. Forget the morality if
you like, that's just stupid.

Yes corruption is a potential problem as it is in all human activity, but
does anybody have a better idea? ?


?John K Clark?
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Mon Oct 31 14:16:19 2016
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2016 10:16:19 -0400
Subject: [ExI] self driving truck
In-Reply-To: <020301d232d7$9afdafc0$d0f90f40$@att.net>
References: <009c01d22ede$51fc6ac0$f5f54040$@att.net>
 <00a901d22ee0$4b73d4c0$e25b7e40$@att.net>
 <CAJPayv3Y_q3HfBjPY7hqKFj6q_XUMO0mvQywupEUajHcdnPBfQ@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAJPayv1TnMwcLu=gH6dmViZjjdaty0jtcx9RmaqJnw7=DRjVZA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Oct 30, 2016 at 2:01 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:


> >
>> ?>?
>> ? Hedge fund managers will be replaced before car repair mechanics?
>
>
> ?> ?
> Hmmm, car repair has changed a lot too.  Now they plug in a diagnostic
> computer, the software tells the mechanic exactly which subsystem needs
> replacing, done.
>

?You're not really done, you might know what the problem is but the car
still isn't fixed.
It's obvious that a new windshield wiper blade is required but the machine
must calculate how the blade should be manipulate so that it is removed and
how the new part must be manipulated so that it is installed, and then
after if figure out what it needs to do it must actually do the
manipulations without breaking anything. And if its going to be economical
the robot mechanic had better be able to do a lot of things besides change
windshield wiper blades.  ?



> ?>
>> ?> ?
>> ?Yes and it's only a matter of ??time before ?everybody is unemployable.
>> Pure libertarian dogma has no answer to this problem, at least none I've
>> seen, that's why I dared to utter the dreaded words "nanny state". If
>> somebody has a better idea I'm all ears?John K Clark
>
>

?> ?
> My best guess would be to replace nanny-state with nanny-county and
> nanny-city.
>

?What's the difference??



?> ?
Emphasize working with the unemployed

?Working with the unemployed to do what? And what happens when everybody is
unemployed??



> ?> ?
> distribute power widely


?Yes, the concentration of power (and money is power) is the problem, but
if not the nanny state how will that concentration be broken? ?

?62 people having as much money as 3.6 Billion people is just asking for
crazy people to be elected as leaders and blood to run in the streets. T
he advance in AI
? will only accelerate this disturbing trend, in 4 or 5 years the number
could drop from 62 into the single digits. Imaging the anger that will
produce, imagine the sort of crazy people all those ?angry people will vote
for! Actually we don't need to imagine it, we can just look at the news.
   ?


> > The higher the central charity or redistribution goes, the more it
> becomes a cherry-red target for the corrupt.


?But the wealth certainly goes high so if the redistribution is to work it
must go high too, and that means it must be powerful and that means a
state. I don't think the poor can rely on the rich surrendering to
the better angels of their nature and voluntarily feeding the poor;
recently India's richest man (and #5 on that list of 62) built the most
expensive private house in the world, it cost 1.5 Billion dollars and he
decided to build it right in the middle of the slums of
Mumbai
?, India's poorest ?city, where an orphanage once stood. It's almost as if
he's deliberately thumbing his noise at the poor. Forget the morality if
you like, that's just stupid.

Yes corruption is a potential problem as it is in all human activity, but
does anybody have a better idea? ?


?John K Clark?
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From spike66 at att.net  Mon Oct 31 14:46:45 2016
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2016 07:46:45 -0700
Subject: [ExI] self driving truck
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv1TnMwcLu=gH6dmViZjjdaty0jtcx9RmaqJnw7=DRjVZA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <009c01d22ede$51fc6ac0$f5f54040$@att.net>
 <00a901d22ee0$4b73d4c0$e25b7e40$@att.net>
 <CAJPayv3Y_q3HfBjPY7hqKFj6q_XUMO0mvQywupEUajHcdnPBfQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEY=C1RB+wm3T-Y+rNa-kvKyumwTQscVCF-LcoFjVX9oLg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEbe+M56YTDK062PFB7Dp-CZB9BxxFYD_Z1779grMaz9Gw@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <01a401d23385$9ae8f130$d0bad390$@att.net>

 

 

From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of John Clark
?

 

?> ?

My best guess would be to replace nanny-state with nanny-county and nanny-city.

 

?What's the difference??

 

 

The difference is that state and local governments have the authority to tax property rather than just earnings.

 

The US Federal government cannot afford it.  It is already too deeply in debt and cannot even balance its budget, never mind taking on a bunch of new expense.

 

More importantly, the Fed cannot tax based on what we have, rather only what we earn.  State and local governments have the option of property tax. 

 

Should the Federal government try to institute a tax based on what we own, capital flees along with the owners of that capital, it and they cannot even be traced.  It is converted to gold, silver, other assets which cannot be found.  Wealth disappears into forms which do not employ anyone or create new wealth.  So? the Fed doesn?t do that.  So? the Fed cannot afford to deal with the newly unemployed.  So? it falls to states and locals which have the authority to tax property.

 

spike

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From atymes at gmail.com  Mon Oct 31 15:57:38 2016
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2016 08:57:38 -0700
Subject: [ExI] self driving truck
In-Reply-To: <01a401d23385$9ae8f130$d0bad390$@att.net>
References: <009c01d22ede$51fc6ac0$f5f54040$@att.net>
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On Oct 31, 2016 8:01 AM, "spike" <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> Should the Federal government try to institute a tax based on what we
own, capital flees along with the owners of that capital, it and they
cannot even be traced.  It is converted to gold, silver, other assets which
cannot be found.  Wealth disappears into forms which do not employ anyone
or create new wealth.  So? the Fed doesn?t do that.  So? the Fed cannot
afford to deal with the newly unemployed.  So? it falls to states and
locals which have the authority to tax property.

By that argument, why does money not flee the state & local?

Also, I recall that argument used against higher federal taxes and it
mostly not coming true.  Wealth goes where it will make more wealth - even
if the taxes are higher, but not high enough to cancel out that increase.

(As for conversion to gold & silver - that's just transfer of wealth to
those selling gold & silver.  Only so much is dug up per year; price
increases can't make new mines appear, and only long term increases can
make marginally unprofitable mines profitable.)
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Mon Oct 31 16:38:17 2016
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2016 11:38:17 -0500
Subject: [ExI] self driving truck
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNTw+henBcomrkLYZrCCM6QOZhKNUKgdT1bTRv_c2H0X4w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <009c01d22ede$51fc6ac0$f5f54040$@att.net>
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Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZGaJO6YSWW1YKY21GiQKBRH3tSanOyMsFb2+L+P3Uq9w@mail.gmail.com>

 It's almost as if he's deliberately thumbing his noise at the poor. Forget
the morality if you like, that's just stupid.

Send that man a copy of a French history book featuring Louis XVI.  bill w

On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 10:57 AM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Oct 31, 2016 8:01 AM, "spike" <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> > Should the Federal government try to institute a tax based on what we
> own, capital flees along with the owners of that capital, it and they
> cannot even be traced.  It is converted to gold, silver, other assets which
> cannot be found.  Wealth disappears into forms which do not employ anyone
> or create new wealth.  So? the Fed doesn?t do that.  So? the Fed cannot
> afford to deal with the newly unemployed.  So? it falls to states and
> locals which have the authority to tax property.
>
> By that argument, why does money not flee the state & local?
>
> Also, I recall that argument used against higher federal taxes and it
> mostly not coming true.  Wealth goes where it will make more wealth - even
> if the taxes are higher, but not high enough to cancel out that increase.
>
> (As for conversion to gold & silver - that's just transfer of wealth to
> those selling gold & silver.  Only so much is dug up per year; price
> increases can't make new mines appear, and only long term increases can
> make marginally unprofitable mines profitable.)
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From danust2012 at gmail.com  Mon Oct 31 16:51:07 2016
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2016 09:51:07 -0700
Subject: [ExI] water vapor plumes on europa
In-Reply-To: <2132638812.1206800.1474951527195@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <00f701d2186f$1d6cc5f0$584651d0$@att.net>
 <2132638812.1206800.1474951527195@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <62E1FC08-62B2-442B-8901-9984B3CBE513@gmail.com>

_______________________________
From: spike <spike66 at att.net>
To: 'ExI chat list' <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> 
Sent: Monday, September 26, 2016 8:27 PM
Subject: [ExI] water vapor plumes on europa

Oh this is cool:

http://www.nasa.gov/press-release/nasa-s-hubble-spots-possible-water-plumes-erupting-on-jupiters-moon-europa

If there are vapor plumes, there are likely oceans of water beneath the ice.  I wouldn?t be surprised if we find life there.

spike


Way cool!

It might be possible, if there's microbial life, that some of them ride the plumes and have become radiation-resistant via a selection process, no? And might it not also be possible that life might've arose there and has then been scattered about the Jupiter system, perhaps even to Mars or Earth? Haven't looked at the average travel times or that overall environment, but it would seem to be like a sweepstakes route for life to spread throughout the outer solar system and maybe to the inner and elsewhere? (I know others have proposed life being scattered from Earth to there. That's also a sweepstakes route. Which seems more likely?)

Regards,

Dan
  Sample my Kindle books via:
http://author.to/DanUst
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From spike66 at att.net  Mon Oct 31 16:40:21 2016
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2016 09:40:21 -0700
Subject: [ExI] self driving truck
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNTw+henBcomrkLYZrCCM6QOZhKNUKgdT1bTRv_c2H0X4w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <009c01d22ede$51fc6ac0$f5f54040$@att.net>
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Message-ID: <002201d23395$795fa260$6c1ee720$@att.net>

 

 

>? On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes
Subject: Re: [ExI] self driving truck

 

On Oct 31, 2016 8:01 AM, "spike" <spike66 at att.net <mailto:spike66 at att.net> > wrote:


>>? Should the Federal government try to institute a tax based on what we own, capital flees along with the owners of that capital?

>?By that argument, why does money not flee the state & local?

Because we can?t run off with our house on our backs.  But here is an interesting take on that question.  If there are indications that a state is going to go open-loop taxing property, the logical thing would be to take a maximum loan on the property and let the bank hold the risk.  Perhaps that explains why in some areas the banks own most of the equity.

California is an interesting case.  They capped property tax structure in the state constitution, then required a 2/3 vote to change that structure.  They did that back in the 1970s when our current governor was governor (is that cool or what?)  Since then, a number of bills have been introduced to change the requirement for a 2/3 vote to a simple majority, but they anticipated this and wrote it such that any law to change the 2/3 rule to anything else requires passage by 2/3 vote.  So? they tried to change the 2/3 rule to change the 2/3 rule, and discovered that it too requires 2/3 majority.  And so on.  You can?t get 2/3 of the senators to agree the sun will rise tomorrow.

>?Also, I recall that argument used against higher federal taxes and it mostly not coming true.  Wealth goes where it will make more wealth - even if the taxes are higher, but not high enough to cancel out that increase?

Ja!  That is a cool feature of capital.  It goes where its reproductive capacity is greatest.  So, governments must make their nation, state, county or city a great place for capital to breed, and capital will come there and breed.  Take Ireland for instance.  Well done, me lads!  My St. Patrick guard your asses wherever you go.

>?(As for conversion to gold & silver - that's just transfer of wealth to those selling gold & silver.  Only so much is dug up per year; price increases can't make new mines appear, and only long term increases can make marginally unprofitable mines profitable.)?

Ja, gold is mobile, property is not.

On that score, I notice a lot of Chinese are buying up homes in the neighborhood.  Their government damn sure can tax them on whatever they have.  So? Chinese businesswomen make sure they have a safe landing strip somewhere else, preferably in California where the property taxes are high but controlled.  I see it everywhere around me: expensive neighborhoods were many of the houses are apparently not occupied but are not on the market.  The yards are maintained to perfection by yard services, the curtains drawn and never moved, not a trace of evidence anyone ever goes inside.  

My theory: those homes are owned by foreigners who are busy making money and keeping that in case China decides it is time for the commies to flex their muscle and have another great leap forward.  If that happens we can envision once-empty neighborhoods crowded with Chinese people with money up the kazoo.  This leads to another problem.  Suppose you are a yard service working for a freshly-minted Chinese expatriate with money up the kazoo.  She pays you generously, but you know where that money has been.  Now what?

spike

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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Mon Oct 31 17:08:44 2016
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2016 12:08:44 -0500
Subject: [ExI] self driving truck
In-Reply-To: <002201d23395$795fa260$6c1ee720$@att.net>
References: <009c01d22ede$51fc6ac0$f5f54040$@att.net>
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Message-ID: <CAO+xQEa8gF5zUNHEh=aJjTxqvMrumZ=3+8sdRvwjPO5kMeEvqQ@mail.gmail.com>

 She pays you generously, but you know where that money has been.  Now
what?  spike


In Ireland I think it's arse (as in Eliza Doolittle).  Anyway - there's no
such thing as dirty money.  This is a huge hole in my learning.  Are you
discussing finance or economics, or just what?  I'll do a bit of reading.
I hate to be so ignorant.  bill w





On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 11:40 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *>?* *On Behalf Of *Adrian Tymes
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] self driving truck
>
>
>
> On Oct 31, 2016 8:01 AM, "spike" <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>
>
> >>? Should the Federal government try to institute a tax based on what we
> own, capital flees along with the owners of that capital?
>
> >?By that argument, why does money not flee the state & local?
>
> Because we can?t run off with our house on our backs.  But here is an
> interesting take on that question.  If there are indications that a state
> is going to go open-loop taxing property, the logical thing would be to
> take a maximum loan on the property and let the bank hold the risk.
> Perhaps that explains why in some areas the banks own most of the equity.
>
> California is an interesting case.  They capped property tax structure in
> the state constitution, then required a 2/3 vote to change that structure.
> They did that back in the 1970s when our current governor was governor (is
> that cool or what?)  Since then, a number of bills have been introduced to
> change the requirement for a 2/3 vote to a simple majority, but they
> anticipated this and wrote it such that any law to change the 2/3 rule to
> anything else requires passage by 2/3 vote.  So? they tried to change the
> 2/3 rule to change the 2/3 rule, and discovered that it too requires 2/3
> majority.  And so on.  You can?t get 2/3 of the senators to agree the sun
> will rise tomorrow.
>
> >?Also, I recall that argument used against higher federal taxes and it
> mostly not coming true.  Wealth goes where it will make more wealth - even
> if the taxes are higher, but not high enough to cancel out that increase?
>
> Ja!  That is a cool feature of capital.  It goes where its reproductive
> capacity is greatest.  So, governments must make their nation, state,
> county or city a great place for capital to breed, and capital will come
> there and breed.  Take Ireland for instance.  Well done, me lads!  My St.
> Patrick guard your asses wherever you go.
>
> >?(As for conversion to gold & silver - that's just transfer of wealth to
> those selling gold & silver.  Only so much is dug up per year; price
> increases can't make new mines appear, and only long term increases can
> make marginally unprofitable mines profitable.)?
>
> Ja, gold is mobile, property is not.
>
> On that score, I notice a lot of Chinese are buying up homes in the
> neighborhood.  Their government damn sure can tax them on whatever they
> have.  So? Chinese businesswomen make sure they have a safe landing strip
> somewhere else, preferably in California where the property taxes are high
> but controlled.  I see it everywhere around me: expensive neighborhoods
> were many of the houses are apparently not occupied but are not on the
> market.  The yards are maintained to perfection by yard services, the
> curtains drawn and never moved, not a trace of evidence anyone ever goes
> inside.
>
> My theory: those homes are owned by foreigners who are busy making money
> and keeping that in case China decides it is time for the commies to flex
> their muscle and have another great leap forward.  If that happens we can
> envision once-empty neighborhoods crowded with Chinese people with money up
> the kazoo.  This leads to another problem.  Suppose you are a yard service
> working for a freshly-minted Chinese expatriate with money up the kazoo.
> She pays you generously, but you know where that money has been.  Now what?
>
> spike
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From spike66 at att.net  Mon Oct 31 16:55:44 2016
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2016 09:55:44 -0700
Subject: [ExI] self driving truck
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEZGaJO6YSWW1YKY21GiQKBRH3tSanOyMsFb2+L+P3Uq9w@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <004901d23397$9f104e90$dd30ebb0$@att.net>

 

 

From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace
Sent: Monday, October 31, 2016 9:38 AM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: Re: [ExI] self driving truck

 

>>? It's almost as if he's deliberately thumbing his noise at the poor. Forget the morality if you like, that's just stupid.

 

>?Send that man a copy of a French history book featuring Louis XVI.  bill w

 

 

Ja.  Back in those days, men?s fashion included a bizarre notion of a ?codpiece.?  

 

I am not kidding, they really did that.  We can suppose it would feel good after it warmed up a bit, but just imagine the smell, even if they stuffed a fresh one down there every day.  And don?t even get me started on the waste of food, when people all around were hungry.  No wonder the proles rose up.  Someone said, ?Ewww, that?s revolting!?  and someone else said ?Good idea!? and off he went to Madame Guillotine.

 

spike

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From pharos at gmail.com  Mon Oct 31 17:15:09 2016
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2016 17:15:09 +0000
Subject: [ExI] self driving truck
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEZGaJO6YSWW1YKY21GiQKBRH3tSanOyMsFb2+L+P3Uq9w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <009c01d22ede$51fc6ac0$f5f54040$@att.net>
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Message-ID: <CAL_armhFLDOKufJyngSedoZ9OKR5DeyDDKjUHSXRJfUc83LGrg@mail.gmail.com>

On 31 October 2016 at 16:38, William Flynn Wallace  wrote:
> Send that man a copy of a French history book featuring Louis XVI.  bill w
>

India society is very different. The poverty is unbelievable to
Western eyes. About 60% of the population are below the poverty line
(depending on your definition). Somebody having a mansion is the least
of their worries. Lack of education and healthcare, sanitation, clean
water, etc. (i.e. just survival) are their main concerns.

BillK


From foozler83 at gmail.com  Mon Oct 31 17:30:55 2016
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2016 12:30:55 -0500
Subject: [ExI] self driving truck
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armhFLDOKufJyngSedoZ9OKR5DeyDDKjUHSXRJfUc83LGrg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <009c01d22ede$51fc6ac0$f5f54040$@att.net>
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Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYCbgUv+A9BSXBC8ZxrcgGHNdF+jDL_L1FpL54+7sxm6Q@mail.gmail.com>

Lack of education and healthcare, sanitation, clean
water, etc. (i.e. just survival) are their main concerns

Yes - just like the 18th century French.  You are saying the bigger the
difference, the less the envy and anger.  Right?  bill w

On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 12:15 PM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:

> On 31 October 2016 at 16:38, William Flynn Wallace  wrote:
> > Send that man a copy of a French history book featuring Louis XVI.  bill
> w
> >
>
> India society is very different. The poverty is unbelievable to
> Western eyes. About 60% of the population are below the poverty line
> (depending on your definition). Somebody having a mansion is the least
> of their worries. Lack of education and healthcare, sanitation, clean
> water, etc. (i.e. just survival) are their main concerns.
>
> BillK
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Mon Oct 31 17:34:23 2016
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2016 12:34:23 -0500
Subject: [ExI] self driving truck
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYCbgUv+A9BSXBC8ZxrcgGHNdF+jDL_L1FpL54+7sxm6Q@mail.gmail.com>
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Ja.  Back in those days, men?s fashion included a bizarre notion of a
?codpiece.?



I am not kidding, they really did that.  We can suppose it would feel good
after it warmed up a bit, but just imagine the smell, even if they stuffed
a fresh one down there every day.  And don?t even get me started on the
waste of food, when people all around were hungry.  No wonder the proles
rose up.  Someone said, ?Ewww, that?s revolting!?  and someone else said
?Good idea!? and off he went to Madame Guillotine.spike



Since the 18th century French did not bath, but rather used perfumes to
cover up the smell, a rotting fish might have been a welcome fragrance.



Waste of food would be conspicuous consumption - a hallmark of nobility.


bill w

On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 12:30 PM, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com
> wrote:

> Lack of education and healthcare, sanitation, clean
> water, etc. (i.e. just survival) are their main concerns
>
> Yes - just like the 18th century French.  You are saying the bigger the
> difference, the less the envy and anger.  Right?  bill w
>
> On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 12:15 PM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 31 October 2016 at 16:38, William Flynn Wallace  wrote:
>> > Send that man a copy of a French history book featuring Louis XVI.
>> bill w
>> >
>>
>> India society is very different. The poverty is unbelievable to
>> Western eyes. About 60% of the population are below the poverty line
>> (depending on your definition). Somebody having a mansion is the least
>> of their worries. Lack of education and healthcare, sanitation, clean
>> water, etc. (i.e. just survival) are their main concerns.
>>
>> BillK
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
>
>
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From atymes at gmail.com  Mon Oct 31 17:46:46 2016
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2016 10:46:46 -0700
Subject: [ExI] self driving truck
In-Reply-To: <002201d23395$795fa260$6c1ee720$@att.net>
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On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 9:40 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

> *>?* *On Behalf Of *Adrian Tymes
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] self driving truck
>
> On Oct 31, 2016 8:01 AM, "spike" <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>
> >>? Should the Federal government try to institute a tax based on what we
> own, capital flees along with the owners of that capital?
>
> >?By that argument, why does money not flee the state & local?
>
> Because we can?t run off with our house on our backs.
>

So?  That would equally true whether the state or the feds collected
property taxes.  Why is it not okay for the feds to collect it, if states
collect it and that hasn't caused all (or even most) wealth to flee?


> California is an interesting case.  They capped property tax structure in
> the state constitution, then required a 2/3 vote to change that structure.
> They did that back in the 1970s when our current governor was governor (is
> that cool or what?)  Since then, a number of bills have been introduced to
> change the requirement for a 2/3 vote to a simple majority, but they
> anticipated this and wrote it such that any law to change the 2/3 rule to
> anything else requires passage by 2/3 vote.  So? they tried to change the
> 2/3 rule to change the 2/3 rule, and discovered that it too requires 2/3
> majority.  And so on.  You can?t get 2/3 of the senators to agree the sun
> will rise tomorrow.
>

It's 2/3rdles all the way down.


> >?Also, I recall that argument used against higher federal taxes and it
> mostly not coming true.  Wealth goes where it will make more wealth - even
> if the taxes are higher, but not high enough to cancel out that increase?
>
> Ja!  That is a cool feature of capital.  It goes where its reproductive
> capacity is greatest.  So, governments must make their nation, state,
> county or city a great place for capital to breed, and capital will come
> there and breed.
>

Exactly.  It goes where it can expand the most, even if that happens to be
where the taxes are not the lowest in the world.  Sure, taxes factor into
how fast capital can expand, but it is far from the only factor.  All
arguments that it is - that increasing taxes at all, in a high-growth area
that will still be high-growth (relative to other areas accessible to
capital, which tends to exclude Russia, China, and most of the third world)
with the higher taxes - have proven false based on historical evidence.

On that score, I notice a lot of Chinese are buying up homes in the
> neighborhood.  Their government damn sure can tax them on whatever they
> have.  So? Chinese businesswomen make sure they have a safe landing strip
> somewhere else, preferably in California where the property taxes are high
> but controlled.  I see it everywhere around me: expensive neighborhoods
> were many of the houses are apparently not occupied but are not on the
> market.  The yards are maintained to perfection by yard services, the
> curtains drawn and never moved, not a trace of evidence anyone ever goes
> inside.
>
Don't be so sure in every case.  Many of those houses are in fact occupied;
they just, by coincidence, come and go at hours when you aren't watching.
Others are rentals which don't always have a tenant.  Though I do believe
there are quite a few as you describe.


> My theory: those homes are owned by foreigners who are busy making money
> and keeping that in case China decides it is time for the commies to flex
> their muscle and have another great leap forward.  If that happens we can
> envision once-empty neighborhoods crowded with Chinese people with money up
> the kazoo.  This leads to another problem.  Suppose you are a yard service
> working for a freshly-minted Chinese expatriate with money up the kazoo.
> She pays you generously, but you know where that money has been.  Now what?
>
You take the money without any second thoughts.  It, like its owner, has
been liberated from China and has become American in this scenario.  (And
that is if you care where the money has been.  If you are running a yard
service, you probably don't.)
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From pharos at gmail.com  Mon Oct 31 18:04:34 2016
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2016 18:04:34 +0000
Subject: [ExI] self driving truck
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYCbgUv+A9BSXBC8ZxrcgGHNdF+jDL_L1FpL54+7sxm6Q@mail.gmail.com>
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On 31 October 2016 at 17:30, William Flynn Wallace  wrote:
> Yes - just like the 18th century French.  You are saying the bigger the
> difference, the less the envy and anger.  Right?  bill w
>


No. The French Revolution was a rebellion by the National Assembly
against rule by the King and the nobles. They used publicity about
unjust taxation, food prices, lavish expenditure, etc. to rouse the
people to rebel.  Much like the English changing to a Parliament
system and demoting their Royalty to just figureheads. And also
similar to the American Revolution.

India already has a democracy and elections.

BillK


From spike66 at att.net  Mon Oct 31 19:46:51 2016
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2016 12:46:51 -0700
Subject: [ExI] state vs federal taxes, was:  RE:  self driving truck
Message-ID: <00ea01d233af$86e91000$94bb3000$@att.net>

 

 

From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes



On Oct 31, 2016 8:01 AM, "spike" <spike66 at att.net <mailto:spike66 at att.net> > wrote:

.

>>>?By that argument, why does money not flee the state & local?  Adrian

>>?Because we can?t run off with our house on our backs? spike

 

>?So?  That would equally true whether the state or the feds collected property taxes.  Why is it not okay for the feds to collect it, if states collect it and that hasn't caused all (or even most) wealth to flee?

 

 

The Federal government is a monopoly, but states must compete with each other.  Second reason: states are required to balance their budgets; the Fed is not and cannot.

 

The competition between states lets state governments experiment, find what works.  Any USian is free to go to any other state, but USians are only free to go to another country if they have a lotta lotta money.  If you have plenty of money you are welcome anywhere on the globe you care to settle (except Mecca and the Vatican) but poor people are stuck as surely as if the USA had a high wall around it.  

 

So? my feeling is that the heavy lifting in government should be done at the state level.  Without competition, the Fed would just tax property, since that is where the money is.  With competition, we get legal structures like we see in California: high property tax but limited by constitutional law with 2/3rdles all the way down to protect it limiting the growth on property tax.  I like it.  That?s why I stay here.  This is the government I choose of all fifty.  I have little choice in the Federal government however: I am not rich enough.

 

spike

 

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From pharos at gmail.com  Mon Oct 31 20:19:26 2016
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2016 20:19:26 +0000
Subject: [ExI] state vs federal taxes, was: RE: self driving truck
In-Reply-To: <00ea01d233af$86e91000$94bb3000$@att.net>
References: <00ea01d233af$86e91000$94bb3000$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAL_armib-Czn3nQr3B+E1PadwadDAg63Ee44NSqmS012N55ZiQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 31 October 2016 at 19:46, spike  wrote:
> The Federal government is a monopoly, but states must compete with each
> other.  Second reason: states are required to balance their budgets; the Fed
> is not and cannot.
>
> The competition between states lets state governments experiment, find what
> works.  Any USian is free to go to any other state, but USians are only free
> to go to another country if they have a lotta lotta money.  If you have
> plenty of money you are welcome anywhere on the globe you care to settle
> (except Mecca and the Vatican) but poor people are stuck as surely as if the
> USA had a high wall around it.
>
> So? my feeling is that the heavy lifting in government should be done at the
> state level.  Without competition, the Fed would just tax property, since
> that is where the money is.  With competition, we get legal structures like
> we see in California: high property tax but limited by constitutional law
> with 2/3rdles all the way down to protect it limiting the growth on property
> tax.  I like it.  That?s why I stay here.  This is the government I choose
> of all fifty.  I have little choice in the Federal government however: I am
> not rich enough.
>


The theory is nice, the practice not so good.

British local taxation hits the same problem. Poorer towns, counties,
states, can raise less money from local taxation but have greater
social needs.  So they also need grants from the national government.

BillK



From foozler83 at gmail.com  Mon Oct 31 20:39:40 2016
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2016 15:39:40 -0500
Subject: [ExI] self driving truck
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armj8HoVEGihWXU1sL5zOsW+7TLCDa8ZFpSzNAW9L0U_BLg@mail.gmail.com>
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On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 1:04 PM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:

> On 31 October 2016 at 17:30, William Flynn Wallace  wrote:
> > Yes - just like the 18th century French.  You are saying the bigger the
> > difference, the less the envy and anger.  Right?  bill w
> >
>
>
> No. The French Revolution was a rebellion by the National Assembly
> against rule by the King and the nobles. They used publicity about
> unjust taxation, food prices, lavish expenditure, etc. to rouse the
> people to rebel.  Much like the English changing to a Parliament
> system and demoting their Royalty to just figureheads. And also
> similar to the American Revolution.
>
> India already has a democracy and elections.
>
> BillK
>

?So you are saying that if people have a vote then the envy won't be
translated into any kind of effective action, and, perhaps, that the envy
is moderated by acknowledging that the rich deserve what they have.  Not so
in an autocracy.  Right?

bill w?

? ?

> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From pharos at gmail.com  Mon Oct 31 21:16:27 2016
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2016 21:16:27 +0000
Subject: [ExI] self driving truck
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEb5qSNCK=wseii=r7jFntVcMu0Ob+TcdDH-z=WcEjLSyA@mail.gmail.com>
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On 31 October 2016 at 20:39, William Flynn Wallace  wrote:
> So you are saying that if people have a vote then the envy won't be
> translated into any kind of effective action, and, perhaps, that the envy is
> moderated by acknowledging that the rich deserve what they have.  Not so in
> an autocracy.  Right?
>


No, I'm not really making any general claims, except that India has
special circumstances and historical traditions. What applies to other
countries won't necessarily apply to India.

In theory, a population with democracy can vote for governments that
will look after them. In practice, many other factors come into play.
The old quote is 'Every nation gets the government it deserves'.
Joseph-Marie, comte de Maistre (1753 ? 1821).  (Often misattributed to
Alexis de Tocqueville or Abraham Lincoln).


BillK



From johnkclark at gmail.com  Mon Oct 31 21:57:54 2016
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2016 17:57:54 -0400
Subject: [ExI] self driving truck
In-Reply-To: <01a401d23385$9ae8f130$d0bad390$@att.net>
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On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 a spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:



> ?> ?
> The difference is that state and local governments have the authority to
> tax property rather than just earnings.
>

State
? ?
and local governments have no power to tax that the Federal government does
not
?
have, and they can
?
use
?
it whenever
?
they wish.
?
The poor and unemployed are NEVER going to vote for a candidate who says
"as president I will do nothing to help the unemployed nor to narrow the
gargantuan and increasing gap between the rich and the poor, I will leave
that
?problem ?
up to local governments to solve". Instead they will vote for some jackass
who promises to throttle the free market, start international trade wars,
decrease taxes on the rich and eliminate the
??
inheritance?
tax.
?
True that will only make things worse, a lot worse, but the voters are
angry and Trump is
?
angry
?
too, at leas
?
t he's making angry noises
?
with his mouth that they find soothing
?. T
hey want to see somebody do something, anything. It's not that the voters
are stupid, it's just that under certain circumstances even very
intelligent people can behave illogically. I've seen it happen.


> ? ?>
> The US Federal government cannot afford it
> ?
> It is already too deeply in debt and cannot even balance its budget
>

?
As I've pointed out many times
?,?
the
? ?
US Federal government
? hasn't balanced ?its budget since 1835 except for the last 2 years of the
administration of the husband of the spawn of Satan, Hillary Clinton.

?> ?
> Should the Federal government try to institute a tax based on what we own,
> capital flees along with the owners of that capital,
>
> ?W
here would all that capital
?go?
 to?
? ?
Other countries are going to
?be ?
having the exact same problem of massive unemployment and a colossal and
widening gap between the rich and the poor that the USA has
?;?
and I know that Trump keeps saying "We're the highest taxed nation in the
world"
? but repeating that ?claim doesn't make it true.
In a study of the 39 most economically developed countries in the world the
USA had the 11th lowest taxes.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/04/11/among-
developed-nations-americans-tax-bills-are-below-average/

?> ?
> Should the Federal government try to institute a tax based on what we own,
> capital flees along with the owners of that capital, it and they cannot
> even be traced.


It works both ways, if the consumers in the USA can't find the capitalists
to tax them then the capitalists won't be able to find the consumers in the
USA to sell to them, and so the capitalists won't remain capitalists for
long. ?



> ?> ?
> ?
> Wealth disappears into forms which do not employ anyone or create new
> wealth.


?If somebody wants to convert their wealth into a form of wealth that
doesn't generate any new wealth that's OK, somebody else with a stronger
desire to make money will pick up the slack and become the next Bill Gates.
It's fine to have rich people but come on, 62 being equal to 3.6 *BILLION*
people is a bit much.

?If I were one of those 62 I'd be calling for change louder than anyone
because I like the fact that there is a connection between my head and my
shoulders and would prefer to keep it that way.?

 John K Clark
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From tara at taramayastales.com  Mon Oct 31 23:37:02 2016
From: tara at taramayastales.com (Tara Maya)
Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2016 16:37:02 -0700
Subject: [ExI] crossdressing: was RE: Nobody can say we weren't warned
In-Reply-To: <009801d22d43$b94e4960$2beadc20$@att.net>
References: <009801d22d43$b94e4960$2beadc20$@att.net>
Message-ID: <92B4DA0E-6E34-410D-9AEE-CCDF69BEA8CA@taramayastales.com>

I like your analogy, Spike, and I think it works, but it can also become subverted.

As in any form of group selection, this system only works if the party can police itself so that its members do indeed choose the best candidate to run. What if, however, advancement in the party becomes more a matter of pleasing the party apartichiks, rather than pleasing the public? I believe that we see this in many European parties which work off a slate of pre-chosen names. Advancement becomes a matter of jostling amongst the elite, and appealing in particular to upper reaches of the party. Of course, it also is vulnerable to corruption. In that case, members of the party chose the candidate that will best benefit themselves, not the nation or even the party itself.



> On Oct 23, 2016, at 8:40 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> 
> Now imagine the party wants to control the pragmatist vote.  A category of
> special delegates are selected, ones that can be consulted, controlled,
> party loyalists.  Lock up these delegates, the Chosen One locks up the major
> contributors and the pragmatist vote.  With those three factors (selected
> delegates, pragmatists and donors) the primaries are over before they start.
> The party appears unified.  I call it pseudo-unified.
> 
> Meanwhile, the hapless opponents not using that strategy are scrapping for
> donations, fighting each other, dividing themselves 17 ways.  The advantage
> to the pseudo-unified party is enormous.
> 
> Even if a challenger emerges who has no chance at all and makes a surprising
> good showing by coming across even to those who disagree as at least a
> decent respectable person, the illusion of a unified front can be
> maintained.

Tara Maya
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