From foozler83 at gmail.com  Tue May  2 00:32:22 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Mon, 1 May 2017 19:32:22 -0500
Subject: [ExI] steam powered bike
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbPnRFJZLMVS-nPk63Qyqx7CjQ3-VVxFqToAecxrojr7Q@mail.gmail.com>

A video of it and its inventor are on the first page of the Huffington Post
site.

I assume that changes rapidly.

bill w
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170501/07213795/attachment.html>

From pharos at gmail.com  Tue May  2 13:56:11 2017
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Tue, 2 May 2017 14:56:11 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Reign of Idiots
Message-ID: <CAL_armj+P_jjEO0xdijqWyZeTYXvTrEZzMw4DhWtqJocgZmVuQ@mail.gmail.com>

Reign of Idiots
Apr 30, 2017  By Chris Hedges

<http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/reign_of_idiots_20170430>

Quotes:
The idiots take over in the final days of crumbling civilizations.
Idiot generals wage endless, unwinnable wars that bankrupt the nation.
Idiot economists call for reducing taxes for the rich and cutting
social service programs for the poor, and project economic growth on
the basis of myth. Idiot industrialists poison the water, the soil and
the air, slash jobs and depress wages. Idiot bankers gamble on
self-created financial bubbles and impose crippling debt peonage on
the citizens. Idiot journalists and public intellectuals pretend
despotism is democracy. Idiot intelligence operatives orchestrate the
overthrow of foreign governments to create lawless enclaves that give
rise to enraged fanatics.

There is a familiar checklist for extinction. We are ticking off every
item on it.
---------

I don't agree with all of his rant, but it is a refreshing bucket of
cold water over the mainstream propaganda.  :)


BillK


From foozler83 at gmail.com  Tue May  2 14:39:16 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Tue, 2 May 2017 09:39:16 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Reign of Idiots
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armj+P_jjEO0xdijqWyZeTYXvTrEZzMw4DhWtqJocgZmVuQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armj+P_jjEO0xdijqWyZeTYXvTrEZzMw4DhWtqJocgZmVuQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZAmQ7V6mQRYmtS6Yi0YqO-eyBODR656qZSEkONc3TXHg@mail.gmail.com>

So - just how did we get government by idiots?  Not in a coup or military
takeover.  Oh no.  We elected them.  Now just who qualifies as idiots?
Maybe I reading the wrong things. but I don't see any support for all of
this except in those it benefits - i.e. - not us - not anyone but the rich

bill w

On Tue, May 2, 2017 at 8:56 AM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:

> Reign of Idiots
> Apr 30, 2017  By Chris Hedges
>
> <http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/reign_of_idiots_20170430>
>
> Quotes:
> The idiots take over in the final days of crumbling civilizations.
> Idiot generals wage endless, unwinnable wars that bankrupt the nation.
> Idiot economists call for reducing taxes for the rich and cutting
> social service programs for the poor, and project economic growth on
> the basis of myth. Idiot industrialists poison the water, the soil and
> the air, slash jobs and depress wages. Idiot bankers gamble on
> self-created financial bubbles and impose crippling debt peonage on
> the citizens. Idiot journalists and public intellectuals pretend
> despotism is democracy. Idiot intelligence operatives orchestrate the
> overthrow of foreign governments to create lawless enclaves that give
> rise to enraged fanatics.
>
> There is a familiar checklist for extinction. We are ticking off every
> item on it.
> ---------
>
> I don't agree with all of his rant, but it is a refreshing bucket of
> cold water over the mainstream propaganda.  :)
>
>
> BillK
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170502/12afacef/attachment.html>

From avant at sollegro.com  Tue May  2 20:47:06 2017
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Tue, 2 May 2017 13:47:06 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Exi List Archives?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.213.1493735990.5337.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.213.1493735990.5337.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <f96a1ec6a352dcb65ec1ef0cf5498637.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>

On Sun, 30 Apr 2017 23:28:30 +0100, BillK wrote:


> <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/>
> covers from now back to 2003.
>
> Useful for checking whether your new post has gone through to the list.
>
>
> I don't think there are any records prior to Oct 2003, except in
> individuals personal files.

Mucho gracias, Senor. Exactly what I was looking for. %^D

Stuart LaForge



From danust2012 at gmail.com  Wed May  3 01:54:28 2017
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Tue, 2 May 2017 18:54:28 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Reign of Idiots
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEZAmQ7V6mQRYmtS6Yi0YqO-eyBODR656qZSEkONc3TXHg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armj+P_jjEO0xdijqWyZeTYXvTrEZzMw4DhWtqJocgZmVuQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZAmQ7V6mQRYmtS6Yi0YqO-eyBODR656qZSEkONc3TXHg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1FD5E081-D3B6-4D2A-8C6F-8D8BF6F657B0@gmail.com>

On Tuesday, May 2, 2017 7:46 AM William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
> So - just how did we get government by idiots?  Not in a
> coup or military takeover.  Oh no.  We elected them.  Now
> just who qualifies as idiots?  Maybe I reading the wrong
> things. but I don't see any support for all of this except
> in those it benefits - i.e. - not us - not anyone but the
> rich

This reminds of someone's response to election time rants about it being time to "throw the bums out." That someone asked, "How did the bums get in?"

Regards,

Dan
  Sample my Kindle books via:
http://author.to/DanUst

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170502/ebb45d20/attachment.html>

From danust2012 at gmail.com  Wed May  3 01:55:18 2017
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Tue, 2 May 2017 18:55:18 -0700
Subject: [ExI] sex - was Re:  The smart-stupid dimension
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEaJniH83cOmn6D1GH6qe687=DxX0Euwg5QnHoSnUjRA8Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaJniH83cOmn6D1GH6qe687=DxX0Euwg5QnHoSnUjRA8Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <894C4F97-9DEF-4D53-ABA2-95D188347F0A@gmail.com>

On Sunday, April 30, 2017 10:41 AM  William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
> (found this in my Drafts folder - sorry it wasn't
> sent at a more appropriate time)> 
> pornography - the writings of prostitutes
> 
> should be - pornopia, since most of it is visual

Words tend to shift meaning over time. I was told "salsa" just means "sauce" in Castilian -- at least in the context of food. In American English, it means something more specific. So?

> OK, libertarians, see if you can swallow this:

> Humans have turned sex into something dirty and obscene.
> How did we allow that?  (all right, probably telling
> children to scare them and warn them away)  No telling
> how much psychological damage that has done over the millennia.>

> People having sex or people nude.  Why isn't that just fun?
> Exciting?  It does provoke sexual behavior.  So what?  We
> have The Pill.  We have preventions for disease.  In
> underage children it's totally safe (well, some disease
> from older children maybe).>

> So anyway, why do we buy the idea that pornopia is obscene?
> Why do we hide the human body from children?  Why put fig
> leaves over what we know is there?  Sex ed by parents is
> nearly extinct, if it ever really lived at all.  College
> students in my classrooms were woefully ignorant and held
> numerous superstitions their society had thrust on them
> (probably mostly peers and kids a few years older).  "Not my
> mother!"  seemed to be the theme.  (Mother as Madonna figure?
> Sexless?).  >

> Isn't this outrageous?  The USA, according to studies done
> worldwide, is a moderately repressive society, as I have
> mentioned before.  A nation gripped by sexual anxiety of
> all kinds.  We caution against masturbation when we should
> be openly recommending it.  This was said to be Onan's sin,
> but I think it was disobedience.  >

> And tons more.  What do evolutionary theorists say about
> the origins of this? What can we do to make people free

> and easy about sex?  (I am NOT suggesting any notion of
> sex with everyone or the like, though I cannot find any
> moral reasons against it.  Many, like me, will prefer monogamy).

Since Bill W mentioned libertarians, I'm wondering who this is directed at. The general libertarian view is live and let live. This goes for nudists, naturists, sex workers, the whole sex positive crowd. If anything, libertarians tend to be more sex positive. So I'm wondering what Bill is looking for here. Maybe he's conflating "libertarian" with "conservative."

Or is he looking for libertarians to explain why US-American culture seems sexually repressive? If so, the standard explanation is Puritanism left its mark.

Regards,

Dan
  Sample my Kindle books via:
http://author.to/DanUst

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170502/8e6a61be/attachment.html>

From johnkclark at gmail.com  Wed May  3 17:20:44 2017
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Wed, 3 May 2017 13:20:44 -0400
Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=8BFreedom_of_the_press?=
Message-ID: <CAJPayv3G7=tsArBua4rNXzm7L9m6U=gGf7ewebbmpfUCQ9sYEA@mail.gmail.com>

On
February
?27 ?
2016
? ?
Trump said
? ?
"*We're going to open up the libel laws so when they write falsely we can
sue the media and we can get these stories corrected and get damages*."

?On ?
March 30, 2017 Trump
? ?
tweeted
? ?
"*The failing @nytimes has disgraced the media world. Gotten me wrong for
two solid years. Change libel laws*?"

On May 1 2017 Trump invited Philippine dictator Rodrigo Duterte to the
White House,
? ?
Duterte
? ?
has said "*Just because you're a journalist you are not exempted from
assassination if you're a son of a bitch*
?". ?

On May 2 2017 Trump's
? ?
Chief of Staff Reince Priebus said that a
?
Constitutional
?
Amendment to change the
?guarantee of ?
freedom of the press so
?that ?
the President can sue
?anyone?
 who
says?anything
 about him
? he doesn't like ?
"*is being looked at*"
?.?


Oh well, at least we won't have to face the horrors of Hillary's Email
server.

  John K Clark
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170503/41ce4067/attachment.html>

From danust2012 at gmail.com  Wed May  3 17:45:32 2017
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Wed, 3 May 2017 10:45:32 -0700
Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?POL=3A_Re=3A__=E2=80=8BFreedom_of_the_press?=
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv3G7=tsArBua4rNXzm7L9m6U=gGf7ewebbmpfUCQ9sYEA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv3G7=tsArBua4rNXzm7L9m6U=gGf7ewebbmpfUCQ9sYEA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <F2862326-2F4D-4AAD-9481-E21ECF2A59D3@gmail.com>

On May 3, 2017, at 10:20 AM, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:
> On February ?27 ?2016? ?Trump said? ?"We're going to open up the libel laws so when they write falsely we can sue the media and we can get these stories corrected and get damages."
> 
> ?On ?March 30, 2017 Trump? ?tweeted? ? "The failing @nytimes has disgraced the media world. Gotten me wrong for two solid years. Change libel laws?"
> 
> On May 1 2017 Trump invited Philippine dictator Rodrigo Duterte to the White House, ? ?Duterte? ?has said "Just because you're a journalist you are not exempted from assassination if you're a son of a bitch?". ?
> 
> On May 2 2017 Trump's? ?Chief of Staff Reince Priebus said that a ?Constitutional ?Amendment to change the ?guarantee of ?freedom of the press so ?that ?the President can sue ?anyone? who says?anything about him? he doesn't like ?"is being looked at"?.?
> 
> Oh well, at least we won't have to face the horrors of Hillary's Email server.

Consider this piece from a year ago:

https://reason.com/blog/2016/05/04/trump-vs-clinton-is-terrible-news-for-fa/

It's interesting to see that you believe people only feared her for her email server issues. You actually don't see that she had other problems? In fact, of the folks I personally know who voted against her, I don't know a single one who went on and on about the email server. Their main concern seemed to be with her overall record long before her email server problems became news.

Regards,

Dan
  Sample my Kindle books via:
http://author.to/DanUst
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170503/a8c14732/attachment.html>

From spike66 at att.net  Wed May  3 19:51:05 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 3 May 2017 12:51:05 -0700
Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=8BFreedom_of_the_press?=
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv3G7=tsArBua4rNXzm7L9m6U=gGf7ewebbmpfUCQ9sYEA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv3G7=tsArBua4rNXzm7L9m6U=gGf7ewebbmpfUCQ9sYEA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <003301d2c446$9a79e400$cf6dac00$@att.net>

 

 

From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of John Clark



 

On May 2 2017 Trump's

? ?

Chief of Staff Reince Priebus said that a 

?

>?Constitutional Amendment to change the guarantee of ?freedom of the press ?"is being looked at"

 

Aren?t you glad presidents don?t make law?  And that the founders put freedom of speech in the Bill of Rights, which cannot be amended without a constitutional convention?

 

?

 

 

>?Oh well, at least we won't have to face the horrors of Hillary's Email server.  John K Clark   

 

What difference at this point does it make?

 

 

spike

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170503/25242a1c/attachment.html>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Thu May  4 00:22:12 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Wed, 3 May 2017 19:22:12 -0500
Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?POL=3A_Re=3A_=E2=80=8BFreedom_of_the_press?=
In-Reply-To: <F2862326-2F4D-4AAD-9481-E21ECF2A59D3@gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv3G7=tsArBua4rNXzm7L9m6U=gGf7ewebbmpfUCQ9sYEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <F2862326-2F4D-4AAD-9481-E21ECF2A59D3@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYu4WrqaXuKm1_Kh+1L=J6nF1_dYvrw3v_Uwvh8zXB7OQ@mail.gmail.com>

Oh well, at least we won't have to face the horrors of Hillary's Email
server.

Did you notice that Trump was the only candidate of either party that
wasn't same old same old D.C. politics?

That could well have been the motivation for many people who were tired of
no-nothing/against everything Congress (point supported by extremely low
ratings for it).

bill w



On Wed, May 3, 2017 at 12:45 PM, Dan TheBookMan <danust2012 at gmail.com>
wrote:

> On May 3, 2017, at 10:20 AM, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On
> February
> ?27 ?
> 2016
> ? ?
> Trump said
> ? ?
> "*We're going to open up the libel laws so when they write falsely we can
> sue the media and we can get these stories corrected and get damages*."
>
> ?On ?
> March 30, 2017 Trump
> ? ?
> tweeted
> ? ?
> "*The failing @nytimes has disgraced the media world. Gotten me wrong for
> two solid years. Change libel laws*?"
>
> On May 1 2017 Trump invited Philippine dictator Rodrigo Duterte to the
> White House,
> ? ?
> Duterte
> ? ?
> has said "*Just because you're a journalist you are not exempted from
> assassination if you're a son of a bitch*
> ?". ?
>
> On May 2 2017 Trump's
> ? ?
> Chief of Staff Reince Priebus said that a
> ?
> Constitutional
> ?
> Amendment to change the
> ?guarantee of ?
> freedom of the press so
> ?that ?
> the President can sue
> ?anyone?
>  who
> says?anything
>  about him
> ? he doesn't like ?
> "*is being looked at*"
> ?.?
>
>
> Oh well, at least we won't have to face the horrors of Hillary's Email
> server.
>
>
> Consider this piece from a year ago:
>
> https://reason.com/blog/2016/05/04/trump-vs-clinton-is-
> terrible-news-for-fa/
>
> It's interesting to see that you believe people only feared her for her
> email server issues. You actually don't see that she had other problems? In
> fact, of the folks I personally know who voted against her, I don't know a
> single one who went on and on about the email server. Their main concern
> seemed to be with her overall record long before her email server problems
> became news.
>
> Regards,
>
> Dan
>   Sample my Kindle books via:
> http://author.to/DanUst
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170503/0801878c/attachment.html>

From danust2012 at gmail.com  Thu May  4 00:59:51 2017
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Wed, 3 May 2017 17:59:51 -0700
Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?POL=3A_Re=3A_=E2=80=8BFreedom_of_the_press?=
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYu4WrqaXuKm1_Kh+1L=J6nF1_dYvrw3v_Uwvh8zXB7OQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv3G7=tsArBua4rNXzm7L9m6U=gGf7ewebbmpfUCQ9sYEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <F2862326-2F4D-4AAD-9481-E21ECF2A59D3@gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYu4WrqaXuKm1_Kh+1L=J6nF1_dYvrw3v_Uwvh8zXB7OQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <81E24405-1800-4D58-8B65-942C76ED1A0F@gmail.com>

> On Wednesday, May 3, 2017 5:29 PM William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Did you notice that Trump was the only candidate of
> either party that wasn't same old same old D.C. politics?  

And it appears that that's not the case. Business as usual seems to be the rule with his administration -- save for the bottomless well of stupidity in his and his press sec.'s comments. Other than that, the bombs keep falling, the Drug War continues, etc.

> That could well have been the motivation for many people
> who were tired of no-nothing/against everything Congress
> (point supported by extremely low ratings for it).

I would welcome a do nothing/against everything Congress and, for that matter, a do nothing government. It might be the perception of many or most people that the Congress and government do nothing, but at no time in my life -- or in yours or in anyone alive today -- has the federal government sat back and did nothing. It's always busy oppressing someone. To be sure, many people feel it's doing nothing about a particular issue -- often an issue government caused or made worse (such as healthcare) or that's actually a non-issue (such as immigration; if there's an issue here, it's rather that there's too little immigration not too much).
 
By the way, Congress's unpopularity seems to not block those in the Congress from getting re-elected. I suspect the polling data is telling us more how the Congress is unpopular overall, but not particular representatives and senators being unpopular in their district -- at least among likely voters. (And you probably know from your background in psychology how folks can hate X and not hate Y even if Y implies X.)

Regards,

Dan
    Sample my Kindle books via:
http://author.to/DanUst


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170503/0dbbd421/attachment.html>

From spike66 at att.net  Thu May  4 01:15:41 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 3 May 2017 18:15:41 -0700
Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?POL=3A_Re=3A_=E2=80=8BFreedom_of_the_press?=
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYu4WrqaXuKm1_Kh+1L=J6nF1_dYvrw3v_Uwvh8zXB7OQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv3G7=tsArBua4rNXzm7L9m6U=gGf7ewebbmpfUCQ9sYEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <F2862326-2F4D-4AAD-9481-E21ECF2A59D3@gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYu4WrqaXuKm1_Kh+1L=J6nF1_dYvrw3v_Uwvh8zXB7OQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <007501d2c473$f52a02e0$df7e08a0$@att.net>

 

 

From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace
Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2017 5:22 PM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: Re: [ExI] POL: Re: ?Freedom of the press

 

 

Oh well, at least we won't have to face the horrors of Hillary's Email server.

 

Did you notice that Trump was the only candidate of either party that wasn't same old same old D.C. politics?  

 

That could well have been the motivation for many people who were tired of no-nothing/against everything Congress (point supported by extremely low ratings for it).

 

bill w

 

 

 

BillW, the meme that congress is so poorly rated is not at all clear.  If a survey is made of congressional approval, the numbers are around 20% approval.  When the same crowd is asked their approval of their own representative, the number jumps into the 50s generally reflecting the approval rating of a sitting president.  When we take only those who can name their representative and discard the others, the approval number jumps into the 70s to low 80s.  Most people can name the current president, but we could throw out the approval response for those who cannot.  So why not discard those opinions of those who do not know the name of their own representative?

 

spike

 

 

 

 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170503/575ae205/attachment.html>

From danust2012 at gmail.com  Thu May  4 18:49:52 2017
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Thu, 4 May 2017 11:49:52 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Geologists analyze the myth of mineral resource exhaustion
Message-ID: <4CB2EBFA-8549-4A5D-87E6-BF12F7273AAA@gmail.com>

http://reason.com/blog/2017/05/01/physical-scientists-are-so-cute-when-the

Stuff we already know here, right?

Regards,

Dan
  Sample my Kindle books via:
http://author.to/DanUst
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170504/0fdecacb/attachment.html>

From atymes at gmail.com  Thu May  4 21:17:43 2017
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Thu, 4 May 2017 14:17:43 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Geologists analyze the myth of mineral resource exhaustion
In-Reply-To: <4CB2EBFA-8549-4A5D-87E6-BF12F7273AAA@gmail.com>
References: <4CB2EBFA-8549-4A5D-87E6-BF12F7273AAA@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNQEndwjGvodLDML7+oHfu-dkJVLhrjesrFfszVvphQRJQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, May 4, 2017 at 11:49 AM, Dan TheBookMan <danust2012 at gmail.com> wrote:
> http://reason.com/blog/2017/05/01/physical-scientists-are-so-cute-when-the
>
> Stuff we already know here, right?

Too bad it's probably not possible to induce "peak doom".


From danust2012 at gmail.com  Thu May  4 22:42:01 2017
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Thu, 4 May 2017 15:42:01 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Geologists analyze the myth of mineral resource exhaustion
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNQEndwjGvodLDML7+oHfu-dkJVLhrjesrFfszVvphQRJQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4CB2EBFA-8549-4A5D-87E6-BF12F7273AAA@gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQEndwjGvodLDML7+oHfu-dkJVLhrjesrFfszVvphQRJQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C5524FFA-B3CB-46ED-B219-CC3DE25530A0@gmail.com>

On May 4, 2017, at 2:17 PM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Thu, May 4, 2017 at 11:49 AM, Dan TheBookMan <danust2012 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> http://reason.com/blog/2017/05/01/physical-scientists-are-so-cute-when-the
>> 
>> Stuff we already know here, right?
> 
> Too bad it's probably not possible to induce "peak doom".

I was going to say that's in endless supply, but what happens to many folks when an economic boom is ready to bust? Aren't they overly optimistic -- at least about the short run?

Regards,

Dan
  Sample my Kindle books via:
http://author.to/DanUst

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170504/009dd22d/attachment.html>

From giulio at gmail.com  Fri May  5 14:01:39 2017
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Fri, 5 May 2017 16:01:39 +0200
Subject: [ExI] All those Everett worlds
Message-ID: <CAKTCJydptn+puZ1fxB5CibyAu4BG=69F70pGFEzPK42f56Vs1g@mail.gmail.com>

All those Everett worlds

After republishing the old essay ?Shadows and the concept of self,?
which Richard L. Miller and I first wrote in 2005, I have been doing
more reading and thinking about Hugh Everett?s Relative State
formulation of quantum mechanics, its popular interpretation as ?Many
Worlds,?, and alternative interpretations...
(John's review of Byrne's bio cited)

https://turingchurch.net/all-those-everett-worlds-f1f2277f96f3



From johnkclark at gmail.com  Sat May  6 15:56:48 2017
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sat, 6 May 2017 11:56:48 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Trump jokes are becoming illegal
Message-ID: <CAJPayv0AsPUQ-Dvm7Xa1XCfx7QHjUHLPLaRDgdFN=9=mL3xAHQ@mail.gmail.com>

FCC Chairman and
?Trump?
?
appointee Ajit Pai said yesterday that he was considering fining comedian
Stephen Colbert
? for telling a joke about ?Vladimir Putin and his sidekick Donald Trump.
In light of this blatant attack on the first amendment I think CNN and
MSNBC should change their policy and stop bleeping Trump whenever he uses
words like "fuck" or "pussy", and that's a lot. I don't think it's right to
edit somebody's remarks so that they sound better (or worse) than they
really are, and it's certainly not right to do it for the most powerful man
in the world. A
nd
?besides, ?
it would be most amusing to watch the spectacle of The President Of The
United States trying to put journalists in jail because they failed to
censor The President Of The United States.

Fox news should change their policy about that too of course but they're a
hopeless case.

  John K Clark
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170506/c2af0a1e/attachment.html>

From interzone at gmail.com  Sat May  6 16:06:22 2017
From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio)
Date: Sat, 6 May 2017 12:06:22 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Trump jokes are becoming illegal
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv0AsPUQ-Dvm7Xa1XCfx7QHjUHLPLaRDgdFN=9=mL3xAHQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv0AsPUQ-Dvm7Xa1XCfx7QHjUHLPLaRDgdFN=9=mL3xAHQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJrqPH8eaaqAh9T3Zb5OOoEay782n=CRii8vt-eVan_tBfi0ZQ@mail.gmail.com>

Howard Stern endured the same treatment from the FCC for years.  This is
why government should be scaled back, Trump is just the latest player to
take advantage of the FCC's broad powers.  I'm more concerned with the fact
they're in the process of dismantling net neutrality and have already sold
us out to the ISPs.

On Sat, May 6, 2017 at 11:56 AM, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

> FCC Chairman and
> ?Trump?
> ?
> appointee Ajit Pai said yesterday that he was considering fining comedian
> Stephen Colbert
> ? for telling a joke about ?Vladimir Putin and his sidekick Donald Trump.
> In light of this blatant attack on the first amendment I think CNN and
> MSNBC should change their policy and stop bleeping Trump whenever he uses
> words like "fuck" or "pussy", and that's a lot. I don't think it's right to
> edit somebody's remarks so that they sound better (or worse) than they
> really are, and it's certainly not right to do it for the most powerful man
> in the world. A
> nd
> ?besides, ?
> it would be most amusing to watch the spectacle of The President Of The
> United States trying to put journalists in jail because they failed to
> censor The President Of The United States.
>
> Fox news should change their policy about that too of course but they're a
> hopeless case.
>
>   John K Clark
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170506/9dcc6f96/attachment.html>

From pharos at gmail.com  Sat May  6 19:27:08 2017
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sat, 6 May 2017 20:27:08 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Chernobyl site to become a solar power farm.
Message-ID: <CAL_armhsd36E4sbamA5NmRHWDAXe9r90BCd2w1t7djBuTtU9sg@mail.gmail.com>

Chernobyl A Step Closer To Becoming A Solar Farm
By Irina Slav - May 05, 2017

The wastelands around Ukraine?s Chernobyl nuclear power plant are
about to begin their transformation into a large-scale solar power
farm, capable of generating half the energy that Chernobyl did.
Eventually, installed solar capacity should reach 1 GW, which would
require US$1.1 billion in investments.

<http://oilprice.com/Alternative-Energy/Solar-Energy/Chernobyl-A-Step-Closer-To-Becoming-A-Solar-Farm.html>

------------------

This strikes me as remarkably good value for money.

The UK has just agreed to build a new nuclear power station at Hinkley Point.
Designed to produce 3.2 GW, it will take about 10 years to construct
and cost about 39 billion USD (without cost overruns).

It is not a like-for-like comparison, as solar panels need more land
(and Chernobyl land is very cheap) and power storage to cover
night-time,  but still......

BillK



From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sat May  6 22:11:44 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sat, 6 May 2017 17:11:44 -0500
Subject: [ExI] diet soda and dementia
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEaZyX6bacOttUk-zhpXh2NKhXNpuFCjTkZ3ezwt8HzR9w@mail.gmail.com>

Washington Post reports that a 10 years study of 4,000 people showed that
people who had one or more diet sodas a day had three times the likelihood
of developing dementia (which was still pretty low).  A control group of
sugary sodas showed no such effect.

Note that this is a correlation, not necessarily showing causation.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170506/c9779843/attachment.html>

From spike66 at att.net  Sun May  7 15:43:17 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 7 May 2017 08:43:17 -0700
Subject: [ExI] ... jokes are becoming illegal
Message-ID: <00d301d2c748$a8425d60$f8c71820$@att.net>

 

 

From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of John Clark
Subject: [ExI] Trump jokes are becoming illegal

?

?>? stop bleeping Trump whenever he uses words like "fuck" .

 

>?  John K Clark 

 

 

 

Ja, so long as he appends the prefix ?mother.?  If one does that, it is OK in our puzzling times.  Reference JayZ performance at his opponent?s political rally.  He wasn?t bleeped for that Jigga business.

 

Meanwhile, the pope commented thus with regard to the MOAB:

 

 

>>After hearing the word "mother" in association to a U.S. military weapon, Pope Francis says he was "ashamed." ? The Pope continued, "We call this device a mother. What is happening?"

I wonder how Senor Bergoglio feels about American hip hop?

spike

 

 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170507/76eac9c2/attachment.html>

From spike66 at att.net  Sun May  7 15:57:25 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 7 May 2017 08:57:25 -0700
Subject: [ExI] diet soda and dementia
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEaZyX6bacOttUk-zhpXh2NKhXNpuFCjTkZ3ezwt8HzR9w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaZyX6bacOttUk-zhpXh2NKhXNpuFCjTkZ3ezwt8HzR9w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00fa01d2c74a$a00f72c0$e02e5840$@att.net>

 

 

From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace
Sent: Saturday, May 06, 2017 3:12 PM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>; Robert Wallace <rwallace71 at gmail.com>; Joel Wallace <bagsofsand at gmail.com>; Mary Van Antwerp <mavah at aol.com>; Angela <dyley at bellsouth.net>; Dylan Henderson <dch1997 at gmail.com>
Subject: [ExI] diet soda and dementia

 

Washington Post reports that a 10 years study of 4,000 people showed that people who had one or more diet sodas a day had three times the likelihood of developing dementia (which was still pretty low).  A control group of sugary sodas showed no such effect.

 

Note that this is a correlation, not necessarily showing causation.

 

 

 

 

Ja, they need to correct for age.  Older people drinking sugar sodas indicates a prime candidate for diabetes, which would increase the chances they would perish before developing dementia.  This argument was advanced to those who saw a correlation that indicated nicotine reduces the incidence of AD: smoking prevents Alzheimer?s by slaying the patient before they get all that old.

 

spike 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170507/c8da1e7e/attachment.html>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Tue May  9 22:59:14 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Tue, 9 May 2017 17:59:14 -0500
Subject: [ExI] quote of the day
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEY1YfL0bqbBiF1-tQ_1nZN6Nwqeqx1Y6Oc-xphqaYDLbQ@mail.gmail.com>

>From 'Superforecasting'

'...finding meaning in events is positively correlated with well-being but
negatively correlated with foresight.'
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170509/9a3af9ff/attachment.html>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Wed May 10 17:52:20 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Wed, 10 May 2017 12:52:20 -0500
Subject: [ExI] quote of the day
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEY6--pO1do2dp2DXnMbgPkB=OyqkhLEU6UuqG9m7qD25g@mail.gmail.com>

I have finally seen a definition of humility that I can say fits me:

Again, from Superforecasting:

'....intellectual humility ...is a recognition that reality is profoundly
complex, that seeing things clearly is a constant struggle, when it can be
done at all, and that human judgment must therefore be riddled with
mistakes.  This is true for fools and geniuses alike.  So it's quite
possible to think highly of yourself and be intellectually humble.'

bill w
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170510/45cb398a/attachment.html>

From pharos at gmail.com  Wed May 10 18:56:02 2017
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Wed, 10 May 2017 19:56:02 +0100
Subject: [ExI] It's not only bees - insects and birds are in decline also
Message-ID: <CAL_armhO8NQCGWBiBdpfuqwY5Q+OVDYMu5PDNyrY7hPz-vtBcQ@mail.gmail.com>

Where have all the insects gone?
By Gretchen VogelMay. 10, 2017

<http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/05/where-have-all-insects-gone>

Quote:
But in 2013 they spotted something alarming. When they returned to one
of their earliest trapping sites from 1989, the total mass of their
catch had fallen by nearly 80%. Perhaps it was a particularly bad
year, they thought, so they set up the traps again in 2014. The
numbers were just as low. Through more direct comparisons, the
group?which had preserved thousands of samples over 3 decades?found
dramatic declines across more than a dozen other sites.
Such losses reverberate up the food chain. "If you're an insect-eating
bird living in that area, four-fifths of your food is gone in the last
quarter-century, which is staggering," says Dave Goulson,

Neonicotinoid pesticides, already implicated in the widespread crash
of bee populations, are another prime suspect. Introduced in the
1980s, they are now the world's most popular insecticides, initially
viewed as relatively benign because they are often applied directly to
seeds rather than sprayed. But because they are water soluble, they
don't stay put in the fields where they are used. Goulson and his
colleagues reported in 2015 that nectar and pollen from wildflowers
next to treated fields can have higher concentrations of
neonicotinoids than the crop plants. Although initial safety studies
showed that allowable levels of the compounds didn't kill honey bees
directly, they do affect the insects' abilities to navigate and
communicate, according to later research. Researchers found similar
effects in wild solitary bees and bumble bees.

Other, more visible creatures may be feeling the effects of the insect
losses. Across North America and Europe, species of birds that eat
flying insects, such as larks, swallows, and swifts, are in steep
decline. Habitat loss certainly plays a role, Nocera says, "but the
obvious factor that ties them all together is their diet."
---------------------


'Dramatic' decline in European birds linked to industrial agriculture
04.05.2017

Habitat loss and a decline in insects are among the main factors
influencing an alarming decrease in birds in Germany and Europe,
according to new figures released by the German government.

<http://www.dw.com/en/dramatic-decline-in-european-birds-linked-to-industrial-agriculture/a-38699308>

Quotes:
In Germany, one-third of all bird species have seen "significant
population declines" since the end of the 1990s, said the government
in response to a question about the plight of birds across Europe put
forward by the Greens.

NABU says "agricultural intensification" is the main culprit. Large
fields and monocultures - made possible by bigger and more effective
machines - as well as intensive use of pesticides, herbicides and
insecticides have reduced the availability of birds' food, such as
worms and insects, along with habitat for breeding and nesting.

Some insect species, for instance, have seen population losses of up
to 90 percent as a result of pesticides and weed killers, wrote the
German government in its response to the Greens.
-----------



It seems that since about 1990 something is going seriously wrong in
the countryside environment.


BillK



From danust2012 at gmail.com  Wed May 10 19:14:28 2017
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Wed, 10 May 2017 12:14:28 -0700
Subject: [ExI] quote of the day
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEY6--pO1do2dp2DXnMbgPkB=OyqkhLEU6UuqG9m7qD25g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEY6--pO1do2dp2DXnMbgPkB=OyqkhLEU6UuqG9m7qD25g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ABDD5BB7-5347-413A-AB96-0BACC4D60261@gmail.com>

On May 10, 2017, at 10:52 AM, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
> I have finally seen a definition of humility that I can say fits me:
> 
> Again, from Superforecasting:
> 
> '....intellectual humility ...is a recognition that reality is profoundly complex, that seeing things clearly is a constant struggle, when it can be done at all, and that human judgment must therefore be riddled with mistakes.  This is true for fools and geniuses alike.  So it's quite possible to think highly of yourself and be intellectually humble.'

That was a good book. That's the one with the hedgehogs vs. foxes, right? And the hedgehoggy foxes and foxy hedgehogs?

Regards,

Dan
  Sample my Kindle books via:
http://author.to/DanUst
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170510/30b919aa/attachment.html>

From spike66 at att.net  Wed May 10 19:13:21 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 10 May 2017 12:13:21 -0700
Subject: [ExI] quote of the day
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEY6--pO1do2dp2DXnMbgPkB=OyqkhLEU6UuqG9m7qD25g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEY6--pO1do2dp2DXnMbgPkB=OyqkhLEU6UuqG9m7qD25g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <003901d2c9c1$7e6cdb20$7b469160$@att.net>

 

 

From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace
Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2017 10:52 AM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>; Mary Van Antwerp <mavah at aol.com>; Robert Wallace <rwallace71 at gmail.com>; Joel Wallace <bagsofsand at gmail.com>; Angela <dyley at bellsouth.net>; Dylan Henderson <dch1997 at gmail.com>
Subject: [ExI] quote of the day

 

>?I have finally seen a definition of humility that I can say fits me:

 

>?Again, from Superforecasting:

 

>?'....intellectual humility ...is a recognition that reality is profoundly complex, that seeing things clearly is a constant struggle, when it can be done at all, and that human judgment must therefore be riddled with mistakes.  This is true for fools and geniuses alike.  So it's quite possible to think highly of yourself and be intellectually humble.'

 

>?bill w

 

 

 

I looked for definitions of humility.  Tried Webster?s, a modest or low opinion of one?s own importance and so forth, but you know the bible puts that big emphasis on humility, so a number of us were debating the issue.  Every time guys get together, you know how it always goes BillW when guys debate things: pretty soon someone decides we need to have a contest, to find out who is the most humble.

 

I told you before how that came out: we all tied for second place.  We piled up on the left pedestal, the silver medalists side, and you can envision it: the platform tipped over and landed on top of us pile of humbled losers.  Then of course we all felt stupid and humbled even more, which put us all up on the top pedestal, but when we righted the thing and got up there, we got all not humble up there because we all won, so they put us back down a level and the whole thing repeated.

 

It was ugly.

 

spike

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170510/cbdf2de6/attachment.html>

From pharos at gmail.com  Wed May 10 19:28:07 2017
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Wed, 10 May 2017 20:28:07 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Self-driving cars can dramatically improve traffic flow
Message-ID: <CAL_armh9j-8=8JvofWNYNFrfpBNrHp7zaSWVHQ5cNasHFTYhxg@mail.gmail.com>

Experiments show that a few self-driving cars can dramatically improve
traffic flow
May 9, 2017 by Celeste Arbogast

<https://phys.org/news/2017-05-self-driving-cars-traffic.html>

Quotes:
"Our experiments show that with as few as 5 percent of vehicles being
automated and carefully controlled, we can eliminate stop-and-go waves
caused by human driving behavior," said Daniel B. Work, assistant
professor at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign, a lead
researcher in the study.

The team conducted field experiments in Tucson, Arizona, in which a
single autonomous vehicle circled a track continuously with at least
20 other human-driven cars. Under normal circumstances, human drivers
naturally create stop-and-go traffic, even in the absence of
bottlenecks, lane changes, merges or other disruptions, Work said.
This phenomenon is called the "phantom traffic jam." Researchers found
that by controlling the pace of the autonomous car in the study, they
were able to smooth out the traffic flow for all the cars.
-------------


BillK


From johnkclark at gmail.com  Wed May 10 20:11:01 2017
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Wed, 10 May 2017 16:11:01 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Blasphemy
Message-ID: <CAJPayv2d_uSsU_997eR5jVVsu+Xcod94O0p2_CrFO5XjQQfn3Q@mail.gmail.com>

Actor ?
Stephen Fry
?was investigated for blasphemy by Irish police because when asked
what he would say if he was confronted by God Fry replied:

*"How dare you create a world in which there is such misery that is not our
fault? It's not right. It's utterly, utterly evil.? Why should I respect a
capricious, mean-minded, stupid God who creates a world which is so full of
injustice and pain?? Bone cancer in children? What's that about?'? The God
who created this universe, if it was created by God, is quite clearly a
maniac, utter maniac.Totally selfish. We have to spend our life on our
knees thanking him? What kind of God would do that?*"

?In support of Fry ?
Richard Dawkins  challenged Irish police to arrest him for blasphemy
?, he said?

?:

* ?I shall be giving a public lecture in the National Concert Hall, Dublin,
on June 12th, and I shall therefore be available for arrest on a charge of
blasphemy?. The Irish blasphemy law must go. An embarrassment to the
civilized world, it encourages the uncivilized one.?*

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/stephen-fry-
blasphemy-ireland-probe-investigation-richard-dawkins-arrest-a7728321.html

  John K Clark
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170510/bef638e0/attachment.html>

From spike66 at att.net  Wed May 10 20:01:06 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 10 May 2017 13:01:06 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Self-driving cars can dramatically improve traffic flow
In-Reply-To: <007501d2c9c7$c0505250$40f0f6f0$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAL_armh9j-8=8JvofWNYNFrfpBNrHp7zaSWVHQ5cNasHFTYhxg@mail.gmail.com>
 <007501d2c9c7$c0505250$40f0f6f0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <007b01d2c9c8$29af1d30$7d0d5790$@att.net>



-----Original Message-----
From: Spike Jones [mailto:spike at rainier66.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2017 12:58 PM
To: 'ExI chat list' <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: RE: [ExI] Self-driving cars can dramatically improve traffic flow



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf
Of BillK
Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2017 12:28 PM
To: Extropy Chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: [ExI] Self-driving cars can dramatically improve traffic flow

>...Experiments show that a few self-driving cars can dramatically 
>improve
traffic flow May 9, 2017 by Celeste Arbogast

<https://phys.org/news/2017-05-self-driving-cars-traffic.html>

Quotes:
>..."Our experiments show that with as few as 5 percent of vehicles 
>being
automated and carefully controlled, we can eliminate stop-and-go waves
caused by human driving behavior," ...
-------------


>...BillK
_______________________________________________


Ja, classic control theory predicts that: the traffic equivalent of shock
waves in compressible flow.

Think of this, since we are in the age when self-drivers are easily foreseen
in 5-10% levels.  Freshly unemployed driving professionals could easily gum
up the works: goes out on the freeway, looks for a string of three or more
self-drivers, pulling in front of them and slowing down.  The self-drivers
obediently stay in line in their lane.  The yahoo up front is causing a big
delay but it isn't all that clear what he is doing is illegal exactly.

On the freeway there is a minimum speed limit, but on surface streets there
is not.  A self-driver-hater could pull in front, slow to walking speed,
perhaps in a dangerous neighborhood...

HEY, business idea!  Create software which automatically routes self-drivers
around bad neighborhoods.

spike





From foozler83 at gmail.com  Wed May 10 20:36:32 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Wed, 10 May 2017 15:36:32 -0500
Subject: [ExI] quote of the day
In-Reply-To: <003901d2c9c1$7e6cdb20$7b469160$@att.net>
References: <CAO+xQEY6--pO1do2dp2DXnMbgPkB=OyqkhLEU6UuqG9m7qD25g@mail.gmail.com>
 <003901d2c9c1$7e6cdb20$7b469160$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYkDdosK2Mdq2X3JWU-4+UTe_ZXHxiibaE3PzMTWB4AuQ@mail.gmail.com>

FYI     There was a tiny bit about hedgehogs and foxes.  It's mostly about
a program IARPA project that the Intelligence Community (CIA, NSA and
several more) started and the author of this book won, when they made it
into a contest.  2800 people became forecasters and from those emerged
superforecasters, who consistently beat the IC of the government.

It's a great book.  Here are the characteristics of the model forecaster:

Cautious:  nothing is certain
Humble:  reality is infinitely complex
Nondeterministic:  what happens is not meant to be, in the sense of fate
Actively open-minded: beliefs are hypotheses to be tested, not treasure to
be protected
Intelligent and knowledgeable, with a need for cognition:  intellectually
curious, enjoy puzzles and mental challenges
Reflective:  introspective and self-critical
Numerate:  comfortable with numbers (though curiously few used Bayes or any
other formula)
Pragmatic:  not wedded to any idea or agenda
Analytical: capable of stepping back from the tip of your nose perspective
and considering other views
Dragonfly-eyed:  value diverse views and synthesize them into their own
Probabilistic:  judge using many grades of maybe
Thoughtful updaters: when facts change, they change their minds
Good intuitive psychologists: aware of the value of checking thinking for
cognitive and emotional biases
Growth mindset:  believe it's possible to get better
Grit:  determined to keep at it however long it takes

For some questions they were posed, some changed their probability
estimates dozens of times as a result of further research

Strongest predictor of ability:  perpetual beta - the idea that nothing
ever gets to perfection, either 0 or 100%, and committed to belief in
updating and self-improvement.  So even after assigning a probability they
continue to research and update.  Never satisfied is one way to put it.
Like good scientists.

That is three times as powerful a factor as intelligence.

They did not reveal the makeup of the super group, but it seems that a lot
of them were into math in one way or another.

Interesting how the US Army changed completely after WWII to copy the
German Wehrmacht' attitude towards following orders

bill w

On Wed, May 10, 2017 at 2:13 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *From:* extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] *On
> Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace
> *Sent:* Wednesday, May 10, 2017 10:52 AM
> *To:* ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>; Mary Van Antwerp <
> mavah at aol.com>; Robert Wallace <rwallace71 at gmail.com>; Joel Wallace <
> bagsofsand at gmail.com>; Angela <dyley at bellsouth.net>; Dylan Henderson <
> dch1997 at gmail.com>
> *Subject:* [ExI] quote of the day
>
>
>
> >?I have finally seen a definition of humility that I can say fits me:
>
>
>
> >?Again, from Superforecasting:
>
>
>
> >?'....intellectual humility ...is a recognition that reality is
> profoundly complex, that seeing things clearly is a constant struggle, when
> it can be done at all, and that human judgment must therefore be riddled
> with mistakes.  This is true for fools and geniuses alike.  So it's quite
> possible to think highly of yourself and be intellectually humble.'
>
>
>
> >?bill w
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I looked for definitions of humility.  Tried Webster?s, a modest or low
> opinion of one?s own importance and so forth, but you know the bible puts
> that big emphasis on humility, so a number of us were debating the issue.
> Every time guys get together, you know how it always goes BillW when guys
> debate things: pretty soon someone decides we need to have a contest, to
> find out who is the most humble.
>
>
>
> I told you before how that came out: we all tied for second place.  We
> piled up on the left pedestal, the silver medalists side, and you can
> envision it: the platform tipped over and landed on top of us pile of
> humbled losers.  Then of course we all felt stupid and humbled even more,
> which put us all up on the top pedestal, but when we righted the thing and
> got up there, we got all not humble up there because we all won, so they
> put us back down a level and the whole thing repeated.
>
>
>
> It was ugly.
>
>
>
> spike
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170510/ea9e8f30/attachment.html>

From pharos at gmail.com  Wed May 10 20:41:47 2017
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Wed, 10 May 2017 21:41:47 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Blasphemy
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv2d_uSsU_997eR5jVVsu+Xcod94O0p2_CrFO5XjQQfn3Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv2d_uSsU_997eR5jVVsu+Xcod94O0p2_CrFO5XjQQfn3Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armgDUf5hBaROsp5eAKM7LAuSWc1bbXgGxDwiMLQ=GG90bQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 10 May 2017 at 21:11, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:
> Actor Stephen Fry
> was investigated for blasphemy by Irish police because when asked
> what he would say if he was confronted by God Fry replied:
>
> "How dare you create a world in which there is such misery that is not our
> fault? It's not right. It's utterly, utterly evil.
>
> Why should I respect a capricious, mean-minded, stupid God who creates a
> world which is so full of injustice and pain?
<snip>


The UK satirists have been having a field day with this.

e.g.
Ireland investigated for blasphemy against Stephen Fry
<http://www.newsbiscuit.com/2017/05/08/ireland-investigated-for-blasphemy-against-stephen-fry/>

God issued subpoena in Stephen Fry case
<http://www.newsbiscuit.com/2017/05/08/god-issued-subpoena-in-stephen-fry-case/>

Ireland accused of blasphemy for questioning Stephen Fry
<http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/celebrity/ireland-accused-of-blasphemy-for-questioning-stephen-fry-20170508127248>

BillK  :)


From msd001 at gmail.com  Wed May 10 20:44:11 2017
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Wed, 10 May 2017 16:44:11 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Self-driving cars can dramatically improve traffic flow
In-Reply-To: <007b01d2c9c8$29af1d30$7d0d5790$@att.net>
References: <CAL_armh9j-8=8JvofWNYNFrfpBNrHp7zaSWVHQ5cNasHFTYhxg@mail.gmail.com>
 <007501d2c9c7$c0505250$40f0f6f0$@rainier66.com>
 <007b01d2c9c8$29af1d30$7d0d5790$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAOJFdbKbB0p=shSrmYotKJt1zQn1CA+ubQRkmprKy-CqBMC0iA@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, May 10, 2017 at 4:01 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

> On the freeway there is a minimum speed limit, but on surface streets there
> is not.  A self-driver-hater could pull in front, slow to walking speed,
> perhaps in a dangerous neighborhood...
>
> HEY, business idea!  Create software which automatically routes
> self-drivers
> around bad neighborhoods.
>
>
I assume you meant for the safety of the canned prole to avoid the bad
neighborhood.

I also assume there's much more opportunity for money-making if the
software prioritizes the richest proles to be available to the worst of the
bad neighborhoods.

Once the pattern of robbing the rich is established, you can also sell
protection to the rich from the software you've written that feeds them to
the poor.  It's definitely a racket.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170510/36165a58/attachment.html>

From spike66 at att.net  Wed May 10 20:51:05 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 10 May 2017 13:51:05 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Blasphemy
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv2d_uSsU_997eR5jVVsu+Xcod94O0p2_CrFO5XjQQfn3Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv2d_uSsU_997eR5jVVsu+Xcod94O0p2_CrFO5XjQQfn3Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00b101d2c9cf$25782610$70687230$@att.net>

 

 

From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of John Clark
Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2017 1:11 PM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: [ExI] Blasphemy

 

>?Actor ?Stephen Fry 

?was investigated for blasphemy by Irish police because when asked 

what he would say if he was confronted by God Fry replied:..

 

 

Stephen Fry could never be confronted by God, because he is God.  If you ever get a chance to view him and Hugh Laurie in the excellent Jeeves and Wooster, one scarcely stops laughing the whole time.  Both those guys did comedy magic.  Considering the scripts, the care and craftsmanship in the sets, the quality of acting and filming, I would nominate Jeeves and Wooster as some of the very best television programming ever made.

 

 

?>?In support of Fry Richard Dawkins  challenged Irish police to arrest him for blasphemy, he said?

 ?

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/stephen-fry-blasphemy-ireland-probe-investigation-richard-dawkins-arrest-a7728321.html

 

  John K Clark

 

 

Same argument holds for Dawkins.  Those guys would be confronting themSelves. 

 

spike

 

 

 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170510/0058a284/attachment.html>

From spike66 at att.net  Wed May 10 22:05:44 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 10 May 2017 15:05:44 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Blasphemy
In-Reply-To: <00b101d2c9cf$25782610$70687230$@att.net>
References: <CAJPayv2d_uSsU_997eR5jVVsu+Xcod94O0p2_CrFO5XjQQfn3Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <00b101d2c9cf$25782610$70687230$@att.net>
Message-ID: <010a01d2c9d9$9359ae60$ba0d0b20$@att.net>

 

 

From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of spike
Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2017 1:51 PM
To: 'ExI chat list' <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: Re: [ExI] Blasphemy

 

 

 

From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of John Clark
Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2017 1:11 PM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> >
Subject: [ExI] Blasphemy

 

>>?Actor ?Stephen Fry was investigated for blasphemy by Irish police because when asked 

what he would say if he was confronted by God Fry replied:..

 

 

>?Stephen Fry could never be confronted by God, because he is God.  If you ever get a chance to view him and Hugh Laurie in the excellent Jeeves and Wooster, one scarcely stops laughing the whole time? spike

 

 

 

There was only one person who filed a complaint against Fry?s comments.  The Irish authorities investigated.  The blasphemy law requires the authorities investigate blasphemy, but it is not at all clear what happens if they find it.  So they investigated.  Done.

 

I found a complete Jeeves and Wooster episode from 27 yrs ago.  This episode is a pretty good representative of the entire series.  It would be fun to hear a Brit?s take on this, such as BillK or Max:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tk7pk58Bq4Q

 

spike

 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170510/be93c68f/attachment.html>

From max at maxmore.com  Thu May 11 03:10:17 2017
From: max at maxmore.com (Max More)
Date: Wed, 10 May 2017 20:10:17 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Blasphemy
In-Reply-To: <010a01d2c9d9$9359ae60$ba0d0b20$@att.net>
References: <CAJPayv2d_uSsU_997eR5jVVsu+Xcod94O0p2_CrFO5XjQQfn3Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <00b101d2c9cf$25782610$70687230$@att.net>
 <010a01d2c9d9$9359ae60$ba0d0b20$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAJX-7wUTQJjr5rH6=KsN=6f3ChqBNmVmdL-uUF5=vz8EsmKVgA@mail.gmail.com>

Spike: I don't believe I've ever seen a Jeeves and Wooster episode --
although now I'm going to have to add it to my list. However, I think
Stephen Fry is a brilliant, deeply-educated comedian. His series with Hugh
Laurie is excellent (mostly). Coincidentally, I recently came across Fry's
superb contribution to a debate on whether or not the Catholic Church has
been a net good.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SJ6AV31MxA

This is one of the most brilliant, informed, pointed-yet-balanced debate
pieces that I've heard.

Christopher Hitchens also debates.

--Max



On Wed, May 10, 2017 at 3:05 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *From:* extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] *On
> Behalf Of *spike
> *Sent:* Wednesday, May 10, 2017 1:51 PM
> *To:* 'ExI chat list' <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Blasphemy
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
> <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org>] *On Behalf Of *John Clark
> *Sent:* Wednesday, May 10, 2017 1:11 PM
> *To:* ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> *Subject:* [ExI] Blasphemy
>
>
>
> >>?Actor ?Stephen Fry was investigated for blasphemy by Irish police
> because when asked
>
> what he would say if he was confronted by God Fry replied:..
>
>
>
>
>
> >?Stephen Fry could never be confronted by God, because he is God.  If you
> ever get a chance to view him and Hugh Laurie in the excellent Jeeves and
> Wooster, one scarcely stops laughing the whole time? spike
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> There was only one person who filed a complaint against Fry?s comments.
> The Irish authorities investigated.  The blasphemy law requires the
> authorities investigate blasphemy, but it is not at all clear what happens
> if they find it.  So they investigated.  Done.
>
>
>
> I found a complete Jeeves and Wooster episode from 27 yrs ago.  This
> episode is a pretty good representative of the entire series.  It would be
> fun to hear a Brit?s take on this, such as BillK or Max:
>
>
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tk7pk58Bq4Q
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>


-- 

Max More, PhD
Strategic Philosopher
Co-editor, *The Transhumanist Reader*
http://www.amazon.com/Transhumanist-Reader-Contemporary-Technology-Philosophy/dp/1118334310/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1372225570&sr=1-1&keywords=the+transhumanist+reader
President & CEO, Alcor Life Extension Foundation
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170510/3b137921/attachment.html>

From spike66 at att.net  Thu May 11 14:32:58 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 11 May 2017 07:32:58 -0700
Subject: [ExI] bio-body spike creates cyber-zombie spike
Message-ID: <005d01d2ca63$7d3cdf00$77b69d00$@att.net>

 

 

 

 

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/ai-can-now-imitate-any-human-voice-just-one-m
inute-training-terry

 

 

 

 

>.AI can now imitate any human voice with just one minute of training

>. <https://www.linkedin.com/in/quharrison-terry-728b3a89> QuHarrison Terry

>.Parrots are always getting people in trouble with their ability to copy
what someone says.

>.  <https://lyrebird.ai/> Lyrebird, is making huge progress in speech
synthesis technology.

>. Lyrebird doesn't imitate, it learns.

>.Using just one minute of voice recording data, their AI can pick up on all
the idiosyncrasies that make a voice unique. Apparently, there's enough DNA
data in that one minute to create a representative style of the speaker. 

 

 

Guessing the claims here are exaggerated, but I can see great potential here
if it is even partly true.  My perennial obsession is to provide some kind
of software with my voice and expressions to stand in for me here after I am
shipped off to some nursing home, and when I am there, to entertain me with
the voices of my bride and others I care about who may no longer be with us
then (and may that day be maaaany decades in the future.)

 

I want something that can take my voice into software and express awe and
amazement at the newer technologies to come which my bio-body won't be able
to appreciate, as well as come up with a terms less redundant than
"bio-body" and less morbid than "cyber-zombie."

 

spike

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170511/7c995293/attachment.html>

From pharos at gmail.com  Thu May 11 19:24:25 2017
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Thu, 11 May 2017 20:24:25 +0100
Subject: [ExI] bio-body spike creates cyber-zombie spike
In-Reply-To: <005d01d2ca63$7d3cdf00$77b69d00$@att.net>
References: <005d01d2ca63$7d3cdf00$77b69d00$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAL_armjtKPa6LOpAF9uuhkORz4QeEKx8wtLxDgSbSnNYNvsNyQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 11 May 2017 at 15:32, spike  wrote:
>
> https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/ai-can-now-imitate-any-human-voice-just-one-minute-training-terry
>
> Guessing the claims here are exaggerated, but I can see great potential here
> if it is even partly true.  My perennial obsession is to provide some kind
> of software with my voice and expressions to stand in for me here after I am
> shipped off to some nursing home, and when I am there, to entertain me with
> the voices of my bride and others I care about who may no longer be with us
> then (and may that day be maaaany decades in the future.)
>
> I want something that can take my voice into software and express awe and
> amazement at the newer technologies to come which my bio-body won?t be able
> to appreciate, as well as come up with a terms less redundant than
> ?bio-body? and less morbid than ?cyber-zombie.?
>


I think 'avatar' would work. Maybe 'persona' ?  Look up definitions
and synonyms for more suggestions.
Put the voice inside one of the new handsome sex robots and it would
be really lifelike.

BillK



From spike66 at att.net  Thu May 11 19:48:01 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 11 May 2017 12:48:01 -0700
Subject: [ExI] bio-body spike creates cyber-zombie spike
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armjtKPa6LOpAF9uuhkORz4QeEKx8wtLxDgSbSnNYNvsNyQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <005d01d2ca63$7d3cdf00$77b69d00$@att.net>
 <CAL_armjtKPa6LOpAF9uuhkORz4QeEKx8wtLxDgSbSnNYNvsNyQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <001601d2ca8f$8082b730$81882590$@att.net>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of BillK
Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2017 12:24 PM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: Re: [ExI] bio-body spike creates cyber-zombie spike

On 11 May 2017 at 15:32, spike  wrote:
>
> https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/ai-can-now-imitate-any-human-voice-just
> -one-minute-training-terry
>
> > I want something that can take my voice into software and express awe 
> and amazement at the newer technologies to come which my bio-body 
> won?t be able to appreciate, as well as come up with a terms less 
> redundant than ?bio-body? and less morbid than ?cyber-zombie.?
>


>...I think 'avatar' would work. Maybe 'persona' ?  Look up definitions and synonyms for more suggestions.
Put the voice inside one of the new handsome sex robots and it would be really lifelike.

>...BillK

_______________________________________________


No Jose!  As soon as they put my digital persona and voice into a handsome sexbot, the whole illusion would be shattered!  Those who know me would soooo not think it was me any longer, damn.

However, if we can make a handsome sexbot, we aughta be able to create a tall geeky bony one, ja?

Funny aside on this:  my father in law is deeply fundamentalist religionist.  I was trying to explain cryonics to him.  Being from the northwest, he knows what happens to flesh when it gets frostbite, and besides, why just the head, what good is just a head (and so forth.)  I explained that cryonics people don't think the flesh will be reanimated, but rather the connectome will be mapped and simulated on a computer, perhaps put into an android of some sort, a C3PO-like device perhaps.

This sent him off on another tangent: what if one lives an exemplary life but is not particularly attractive and doesn't get any serious temptation as a result (note: for the really hard-core religionist, the temptation to commit adultery is really the only serious temptation there is.  Reasoning: the other stuff is dangerous and illegal.  You and I aren't really tempted to rob the local convenience store, or even to slay some bastard who desperately needs it, and blasphemy isn't all that much fun anyway.  So adultery is the biggie for a lot of people, and fornication is adultery in that view of life, even if both are unmarried.)  

OK then, you are a nice guy, generous, kind and good, religious, but you just don't have that appeal, you weren't given that gift in life.  Perhaps you are boney or you have crooked teeth or flabby buns or you are microscopic or whatever have ya, no serious temptation presents itself to commit the fundamentalists' one serious temptation.  So you don't.  Imagine.  It isn't hard to do.  For some of us.  Dammit.

OK then, suppose the cryonics people perform miracles, you wake up, still the same nice guy, generous, kind and good, but now... they have you in this marvelous body, chiseled muscles head to toe, straight teeth, tight buns and oh my, look at that.  So now that one serious temptation you never had before is now wanting your attention bigtime.  But you never really developed any powerful resistance to that one in your bio-life because you never really needed to (dammit.)

So what if your robo-zombie self just can't keep the nubile maidens away, so beautiful they are, so numerous, so eager.  If one's robo-zombie commits adultery, does that count against the bio-precursor in Judgement Day?  Or since it is just a machine sorta, then perhaps it is one of those things that... well... perhaps you would have fallen to temptation in your bio-life had you been constructed like that, but you weren't so you didn't and all is well?

He wouldn't sign up for cryonics.  But I will.  I won't worry if my robo-zombie is built with actual muscle and sex appeal.

Now is that a weird tangent on this discussion or what?  ExI somehow promotes delightfully weird tangents.

spike




From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri May 12 00:36:50 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Thu, 11 May 2017 19:36:50 -0500
Subject: [ExI] nutrition blog
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbqXm7aUBXKEdVDKmJ1X1an+tBVLkLxxkJ+W718Bk9mJQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hey - nobody's posting on the Ex list, so what the hell?  Some of this is
very amusing, and some of it is instructive.  Blog appears on Nate Silver's
home page - fivethirtyeight.com  (No I don't think you can change your
belly button by eating cabbage)

 Enjoy    bill w

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/you-cant-trust-what-you-read-about-nutrition/
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170511/2629e804/attachment.html>

From spike66 at att.net  Fri May 12 05:15:22 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 11 May 2017 22:15:22 -0700
Subject: [ExI] nutrition blog
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEbqXm7aUBXKEdVDKmJ1X1an+tBVLkLxxkJ+W718Bk9mJQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbqXm7aUBXKEdVDKmJ1X1an+tBVLkLxxkJ+W718Bk9mJQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <007401d2cade$c2840c70$478c2550$@att.net>

 

 

From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace



 

 

>? Enjoy    bill w

 

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/you-cant-trust-what-you-read-about-nutrition/

 

 

 

Nutrition and diet are fields of human knowledge most impacted by misinformation and disinformation.  So many contradictions everywhere.  It is no surprise the general public is confused.

 

spike

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170511/1078d5c5/attachment.html>

From pharos at gmail.com  Fri May 12 11:43:27 2017
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Fri, 12 May 2017 12:43:27 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Sushi lovers warned of parasites danger in raw fish
Message-ID: <CAL_armiiD8n1PRhnNw_yybZM7qyCKsG3Q3WiZ0jOFt7Lkyqh+A@mail.gmail.com>

One more thing to worry about!

<http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-39882381>
Quotes:
Sushi lovers are being warned of the dangers of ingesting parasites
from raw and undercooked fish.

Doctors writing in British Medical Journal Case Reports said sushi's
growing popularity in the West could be linked to a rise in parasitic
infections.
Experts treated a 32-year-old man, in Lisbon, who was found to have
parasite larvae on his gut lining.
He had been suffering stomach pain, vomiting and fever for a week.

They added that most cases of anisakiasis to date had been reported in
Japan, but warned: "However, it has been increasingly recognised in
Western countries."
--------

We'll have to ban foreign food immigration now.  :)

BillK


From sparge at gmail.com  Fri May 12 12:18:44 2017
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Fri, 12 May 2017 08:18:44 -0400
Subject: [ExI] bio-body spike creates cyber-zombie spike
In-Reply-To: <001601d2ca8f$8082b730$81882590$@att.net>
References: <005d01d2ca63$7d3cdf00$77b69d00$@att.net>
 <CAL_armjtKPa6LOpAF9uuhkORz4QeEKx8wtLxDgSbSnNYNvsNyQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <001601d2ca8f$8082b730$81882590$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2cDOX5V2w3j__GHDpgxu4dbcax2Xv9kQ3fNr=mhg4Vr+Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, May 11, 2017 at 3:48 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

>
> OK then, suppose the cryonics people perform miracles, you wake up, still
> the same nice guy, generous, kind and good, but now... they have you in
> this marvelous body, chiseled muscles head to toe, straight teeth, tight
> buns and oh my, look at that.  So now that one serious temptation you never
> had before is now wanting your attention bigtime.  But you never really
> developed any powerful resistance to that one in your bio-life because you
> never really needed to (dammit.)
>

Surely by then we'll be able to control obsolete biological urges. I'm
saying we'll never want to be hungry or horny but we should be able to
limit them to what we intellectually determine to be appropriate times and
places without requiring superhuman self control.

-Dave
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170512/291fc94a/attachment.html>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Tue May 16 14:43:44 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Tue, 16 May 2017 09:43:44 -0500
Subject: [ExI] letter
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEboTcOTZXhE8Y3dNeaJPPLX-Sk=JqvNkC1q5OvFGx4bjQ@mail.gmail.com>

I see where the administration wants billions more for the Defense
Department.  What for?!  We are already spending more than the rest of the
world combined.

And where are they going to get the money?  They want to cut 800 billions
dollars from child health care.  I can't put enough exclamation points here.

Is this what you elected your Republicans to go to Washington and do?

Black people matter.  So do yellow, red, and white.  All children.  All.
Poor, rich, legal, illegal........all.

This has to be the most mean-spirited thing I have ever seen in 75 years.

Have we just lost our way?  This is not the American I know and love.

William F. Wallace
Brandon MS
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170516/4c97f3a5/attachment.html>

From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Thu May 18 00:08:40 2017
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Wed, 17 May 2017 17:08:40 -0700
Subject: [ExI] From another list
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB5q__ik0FZccfj49A7PE34yALJcrCTnLxNOZ6k5-KtxiQ@mail.gmail.com>

I thought you might enjoy this, I certainly did.  Keith

"When we stopped doing physical births, and started just created virtual
people directly, there was concern about shared context and also whether
the new, and occasionally rather strange, beings would care about
mankind. To alleviate these concerns, all newly created entities have
been required to undergo a simulated lifetime as an original, physical
human. The simulation also serves as a test: it ends either with the
simulated death of the participant, or when they invent the singularity.
This is all rather antiquated at this point, of course, but we still do
it anyway. History is its own reward, as Pak Muong said."

By

Harry Chesley


From johnkclark at gmail.com  Thu May 18 01:38:11 2017
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Wed, 17 May 2017 21:38:11 -0400
Subject: [ExI] sex - was Re: The smart-stupid dimension
In-Reply-To: <894C4F97-9DEF-4D53-ABA2-95D188347F0A@gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaJniH83cOmn6D1GH6qe687=DxX0Euwg5QnHoSnUjRA8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <894C4F97-9DEF-4D53-ABA2-95D188347F0A@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv2qDHMOoC137jpJLb1O+ROhYzBcgwNcXjKCSmDkHeF+Rw@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, May 2, 2017  Dan TheBookMan <danust2012 at gmail.com> wrote:

?> ?
> Maybe he's conflating "libertarian" with "conservative."


?I've always considered them to be two very different things, although I
can well understand how somebody observing events in the USA over the last
year or so could become confused over the matter. ?

?

 John K Clark?
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170517/dc02d1ad/attachment.html>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Wed May 17 23:53:54 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Wed, 17 May 2017 18:53:54 -0500
Subject: [ExI] dying?
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbfbDOW=KH-XJ-FjwhOZjrnddc2V6Z+S1kX00jvcUo7hg@mail.gmail.com>

Is this group just not interested any more?  Don't want new discussions of
perhaps old ideas?

Then I"ll post book reviews and health stuff - if no one objects.

To be fair, objectors have to post something themselves.

I can't believe all these brilliant minds don't have anything to say.

Am reading Nate Silver's book Signal and Noise.  Will never believe an
economist again.

Interesting if absurd idea:  can we build something organic that can
receive radio signals?

bill w
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170517/c5d3afa8/attachment.html>

From atymes at gmail.com  Thu May 18 03:53:42 2017
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Wed, 17 May 2017 20:53:42 -0700
Subject: [ExI]  Translation AI (was  dying?)
Message-ID: <CALAdGNT4AY5MrfqGK26U5XfWNikNcMXDOpqHz9xU_qERw7ovQw@mail.gmail.com>

It is entirely possible to build an organic radio receptor.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1369702106714444 has
a bunch of links for organic circuit elements; it's a short hop from
there to organic radio transceivers.

I've been trying not to spam about CubeCab, which is taking more of my
time these days.  (Most of the day tomorrow, in fact.)  Although, I
can think of one on-topic anecdote from just this past weekend about
the state of translation AI.

We're presenting at the Paris Air Show next month, specifically June
23rd.  I'm not going myself because I've got another presentation the
preceding week and might have another one the weekend of the 23rd
(details likely to be fluid until that weekend), but I am trying to
coordinate logistics.  Part of that is coming up with a pair of
free-standing posters for the booth.

Currently we're thinking one will be all pictures and symbols, and the
other will have text.  PAS asked that the text one be English on one
side and French on the other, and to send them our posters' images for
review.  (The deadline to submit was last Monday.  I assume this was
so anyone who doesn't meet their standards has a month to redo.)  I do
not speak French, but Google Translate does.

The English text came out as kind of a manifesto.  (I can C&P the
English & French text here if anyone asks - but I'll only do it if
asked, to make sure it isn't spam.)  I auto-translated it into French,
translated the result back into English to catch the few sentences
that needed restating (just changed the word choices until the
translation loop came up with something close enough to the original),
and submitted it to PAS for review.

I gather the PAS guys are in France and probably native French
speakers, from their names, email addresses, and general contact
information.  I very strongly suspect they have nontrivial quality
standards: the Paris Air Show is the largest in the world (in the
odd-numbered years its held in; there's another European one in
even-numbered years), with representatives from all the major air
forces and aerospace companies, so the organizers are unlikely to
half-ass stuff.  This is likely to be the strongest test of French
skills that I and any automation I use* will face in the immediate
future.

The simple round-trip translation and correction produced results good
enough for them.  The only cost to me, the business owner needing to
meet foreign marketing standards, was less than an extra half hour of
my time - and now I have (kind of) written a manifesto in French, like
many a proper revolutionary.

* Notice how that comes off, BTW.  It's not "the robots do this for
me", but "automation extends what I can do - and thus what I am
responsible for, so the onus is on me to make sure I use it right".
An increasing amount of this kind of experience leads me to suspect
the Singularity will come via merging man and machine - perhaps
involving mind uploading, or perhaps merely extreme cybernetics
coupled with anti-aging advances - rather than AIs that never were
human replacing humanity.

As such, I wonder if things like learning how to learn (which is
starting to be taught formally), and being more aware of our own
bio-mental architecture, are among the early glimmers of the
Singularity.  What happens if someone discovers how to keep brain
plasticity even in advanced age - and if we figure out how to make
neurons transmit information faster, and that starts seeing wide
adoption?

What does figuring out how to be smarter feel like, to yourself and to others?

On Wed, May 17, 2017 at 4:53 PM, William Flynn Wallace
<foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Is this group just not interested any more?  Don't want new discussions of
> perhaps old ideas?
>
> Then I"ll post book reviews and health stuff - if no one objects.
>
> To be fair, objectors have to post something themselves.
>
> I can't believe all these brilliant minds don't have anything to say.
>
> Am reading Nate Silver's book Signal and Noise.  Will never believe an
> economist again.
>
> Interesting if absurd idea:  can we build something organic that can receive
> radio signals?
>
> bill w
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>


From sen.otaku at gmail.com  Thu May 18 04:34:31 2017
From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard)
Date: Wed, 17 May 2017 23:34:31 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Test post
Message-ID: <B1DC63B6-6BF3-44E1-B1AD-BAFD2AE458F1@gmail.com>

Testing to see if I can send.

It's not my fault it was only called googlemail when I first got one XD

> On May 17, 2017, at 22:53, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> It is entirely possible to build an organic radio receptor.
> http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1369702106714444 has
> a bunch of links for organic circuit elements; it's a short hop from
> there to organic radio transceivers.
> 
> I've been trying not to spam about CubeCab, which is taking more of my
> time these days.  (Most of the day tomorrow, in fact.)  Although, I
> can think of one on-topic anecdote from just this past weekend about
> the state of translation AI.
> 
> We're presenting at the Paris Air Show next month, specifically June
> 23rd.  I'm not going myself because I've got another presentation the
> preceding week and might have another one the weekend of the 23rd
> (details likely to be fluid until that weekend), but I am trying to
> coordinate logistics.  Part of that is coming up with a pair of
> free-standing posters for the booth.
> 
> Currently we're thinking one will be all pictures and symbols, and the
> other will have text.  PAS asked that the text one be English on one
> side and French on the other, and to send them our posters' images for
> review.  (The deadline to submit was last Monday.  I assume this was
> so anyone who doesn't meet their standards has a month to redo.)  I do
> not speak French, but Google Translate does.
> 
> The English text came out as kind of a manifesto.  (I can C&P the
> English & French text here if anyone asks - but I'll only do it if
> asked, to make sure it isn't spam.)  I auto-translated it into French,
> translated the result back into English to catch the few sentences
> that needed restating (just changed the word choices until the
> translation loop came up with something close enough to the original),
> and submitted it to PAS for review.
> 
> I gather the PAS guys are in France and probably native French
> speakers, from their names, email addresses, and general contact
> information.  I very strongly suspect they have nontrivial quality
> standards: the Paris Air Show is the largest in the world (in the
> odd-numbered years its held in; there's another European one in
> even-numbered years), with representatives from all the major air
> forces and aerospace companies, so the organizers are unlikely to
> half-ass stuff.  This is likely to be the strongest test of French
> skills that I and any automation I use* will face in the immediate
> future.
> 
> The simple round-trip translation and correction produced results good
> enough for them.  The only cost to me, the business owner needing to
> meet foreign marketing standards, was less than an extra half hour of
> my time - and now I have (kind of) written a manifesto in French, like
> many a proper revolutionary.
> 
> * Notice how that comes off, BTW.  It's not "the robots do this for
> me", but "automation extends what I can do - and thus what I am
> responsible for, so the onus is on me to make sure I use it right".
> An increasing amount of this kind of experience leads me to suspect
> the Singularity will come via merging man and machine - perhaps
> involving mind uploading, or perhaps merely extreme cybernetics
> coupled with anti-aging advances - rather than AIs that never were
> human replacing humanity.
> 
> As such, I wonder if things like learning how to learn (which is
> starting to be taught formally), and being more aware of our own
> bio-mental architecture, are among the early glimmers of the
> Singularity.  What happens if someone discovers how to keep brain
> plasticity even in advanced age - and if we figure out how to make
> neurons transmit information faster, and that starts seeing wide
> adoption?
> 
> What does figuring out how to be smarter feel like, to yourself and to others?
> 
> On Wed, May 17, 2017 at 4:53 PM, William Flynn Wallace
> <foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Is this group just not interested any more?  Don't want new discussions of
>> perhaps old ideas?
>> 
>> Then I"ll post book reviews and health stuff - if no one objects.
>> 
>> To be fair, objectors have to post something themselves.
>> 
>> I can't believe all these brilliant minds don't have anything to say.
>> 
>> Am reading Nate Silver's book Signal and Noise.  Will never believe an
>> economist again.
>> 
>> Interesting if absurd idea:  can we build something organic that can receive
>> radio signals?
>> 
>> bill w
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat



From danust2012 at gmail.com  Thu May 18 04:38:49 2017
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Wed, 17 May 2017 21:38:49 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Test post
In-Reply-To: <B1DC63B6-6BF3-44E1-B1AD-BAFD2AE458F1@gmail.com>
References: <B1DC63B6-6BF3-44E1-B1AD-BAFD2AE458F1@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <10BD8C71-26D3-42D2-92FB-A09E8862215F@gmail.com>

Received. ;)

Regards,

Dan
  Sample my Kindle books via:
http://author.to/DanUst

> On May 17, 2017, at 9:34 PM, SR Ballard <sen.otaku at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Testing to see if I can send.
> 
> It's not my fault it was only called googlemail when I first got one XD
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170517/51fb5bd4/attachment.html>

From danust2012 at gmail.com  Thu May 18 04:43:58 2017
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Wed, 17 May 2017 21:43:58 -0700
Subject: [ExI] sex - was Re: The smart-stupid dimension
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv2qDHMOoC137jpJLb1O+ROhYzBcgwNcXjKCSmDkHeF+Rw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaJniH83cOmn6D1GH6qe687=DxX0Euwg5QnHoSnUjRA8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <894C4F97-9DEF-4D53-ABA2-95D188347F0A@gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv2qDHMOoC137jpJLb1O+ROhYzBcgwNcXjKCSmDkHeF+Rw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <82CF0615-CDC7-4FF6-9DC1-70B1A9C7874A@gmail.com>

On May 17, 2017, at 6:38 PM, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> On Tue, May 2, 2017  Dan TheBookMan <danust2012 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> ?> ?Maybe he's conflating "libertarian" with "conservative."
> 
> ?I've always considered them to be two very different things, although I can well understand how somebody observing events in the USA over the last year or so could become confused over the matter.

To be sure, conservatives often claim to be libertarians. And many mainstream folks roll libertarians into the Right. (Actually, another completely wrong perception since libertarianism should be on the Left.) Then again, the growth of the libertarian movement has led to many people adopting the label who have no clue about stuff like legalizing sex work and getting government completely out of dictating sexual stuff. But all that started before last year, no?

Regards,

Dan
  Sample my Kindle books via:
http://author.to/DanUst

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170517/830b821f/attachment.html>

From sen.otaku at gmail.com  Thu May 18 05:08:49 2017
From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard)
Date: Thu, 18 May 2017 00:08:49 -0500
Subject: [ExI] sex - was Re: The smart-stupid dimension
In-Reply-To: <82CF0615-CDC7-4FF6-9DC1-70B1A9C7874A@gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaJniH83cOmn6D1GH6qe687=DxX0Euwg5QnHoSnUjRA8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <894C4F97-9DEF-4D53-ABA2-95D188347F0A@gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv2qDHMOoC137jpJLb1O+ROhYzBcgwNcXjKCSmDkHeF+Rw@mail.gmail.com>
 <82CF0615-CDC7-4FF6-9DC1-70B1A9C7874A@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABf9QbD2TKZ0kLTe8go9wor0NgitwfqyEZNpsmrycRsV3DrpoQ@mail.gmail.com>

Libertarians don't fit well into the common conception of their the right
or the left in the United States.

They don't tend to fit with the Right, because even if they are personally
socially conservative, they believe that the government should not impose
those sorts of social norms onto people. Whereas Conservatives in the
United States tend to believe that legislating lifestyle (at least in a
certain realm) is their moral duty.

However, the popular conception of the Left, on the other hand, gravitates
more towards social safety policies (unemployment, disability, single payer
policies) and legislating morality in the other direction (you must accept
X type persons).

Really, it doesn't fit well in the traditional understanding of either the
Right or the Left in the United States. So, often people who consider
themselves on the Right will say it is on the Left, and people on the
mainstream Left will say it is on the Right.

There are also a couple of other reasons that Libertarianism is commonly
misunderstood in the United States. Thus far, the public coverage has been
poor, in general. Additionally, many different types of groups claim to be
libertarian, and so for the average person, determining what is an accurate
representation of libertarianism is extremely difficult.

For example, I used to work for the Democratic Party, and my two closest
friends worked in politics also, one as State point for the Green Party,
and the other as NW State point for the Libertarian Party. Which of us
faced the greatest number of misconceptions? My friend in the Libertarian
Party. (And the difference between "Big L" and "little l" libertarians is
not lost on me, I promise)

So there's just not an appropriate level of understanding of what
"libertarian" even means.

(Sorry if that's a bit juvenile... You guys have always intimidated me from
day one)

-Sophia

On Wed, May 17, 2017 at 11:43 PM, Dan TheBookMan <danust2012 at gmail.com>
wrote:
>
>
> To be sure, conservatives often claim to be libertarians. And many
> mainstream folks roll libertarians into the Right. (Actually, another
> completely wrong perception since libertarianism should be on the Left.)
> Then again, the growth of the libertarian movement has led to many people
> adopting the label who have no clue about stuff like legalizing sex work
> and getting government completely out of dictating sexual stuff. But all
> that started before last year, no?
>
> Regards,
>
> Dan
>   Sample my Kindle books via:
> http://author.to/DanUst
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170518/e89d3073/attachment.html>

From atymes at gmail.com  Thu May 18 04:40:06 2017
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Wed, 17 May 2017 21:40:06 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Test post
In-Reply-To: <B1DC63B6-6BF3-44E1-B1AD-BAFD2AE458F1@gmail.com>
References: <B1DC63B6-6BF3-44E1-B1AD-BAFD2AE458F1@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNT=mtJqdM3QCiZY8YN5tSUkFJ3=Z+1OeR6tf0qucw3ekw@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, May 17, 2017 at 9:34 PM, SR Ballard <sen.otaku at gmail.com> wrote:
> Testing to see if I can send.
>
> It's not my fault it was only called googlemail when I first got one XD

Test received.


From foozler83 at gmail.com  Thu May 18 14:01:19 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Thu, 18 May 2017 09:01:19 -0500
Subject: [ExI] sex - was Re: The smart-stupid dimension
In-Reply-To: <CABf9QbD2TKZ0kLTe8go9wor0NgitwfqyEZNpsmrycRsV3DrpoQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaJniH83cOmn6D1GH6qe687=DxX0Euwg5QnHoSnUjRA8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <894C4F97-9DEF-4D53-ABA2-95D188347F0A@gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv2qDHMOoC137jpJLb1O+ROhYzBcgwNcXjKCSmDkHeF+Rw@mail.gmail.com>
 <82CF0615-CDC7-4FF6-9DC1-70B1A9C7874A@gmail.com>
 <CABf9QbD2TKZ0kLTe8go9wor0NgitwfqyEZNpsmrycRsV3DrpoQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEa-NF5a9ODna3uDvzCq1YwDKCyFwxvCKhW4p10xcm_99g@mail.gmail.com>

So there's just not an appropriate level of understanding of what
"libertarian" even means.

(Sorry if that's a bit juvenile... You guys have always intimidated me from
day one)

-Sophia

That's a good post and very true.  I have told people that I am a liberal
libertarian and have been told back that that's impossible!  NO, they say.
Libertarians are survivalists and bunker mentality people - basically
against all government, taxes, laws, etc.  Anarchists.  Gun lovers.

So how are we 'true' libertarians going to get our message out?  Money.
Viable candidates, not always national.

Another problem is that it takes more than one dimension to describe a
person's beliefs and values.  Take the  two dimensions,
liberal-conservative, and libertarian-authoritarian, .  Can you conceive of
a liberal authoritarian?  Well, at least one study showed that liberals are
more prone to be authoritarians than conservatives.  I dunno about that.
I'll bet that if you controlled for libertarianism, conservatives would be
way more authoritarian - think of all the right wing religionists who would
like nothing better than to control our every behavior and thought.  Make
religious teachings into law and issue severe punishments.  Like radical
Muslims.  Like Torquemada.

So - saying a person is a conservative or a libertarian is pretty far from
providing us an overall picture, to say the very least.   Look at the split
among Repubs in Congress.

 Speak up, Sophia!  They have been pretty kind to me, a nontechy type.
(They are really a bunch of pussycats.)

bill w

On Thu, May 18, 2017 at 12:08 AM, SR Ballard <sen.otaku at gmail.com> wrote:

> Libertarians don't fit well into the common conception of their the right
> or the left in the United States.
>
> They don't tend to fit with the Right, because even if they are personally
> socially conservative, they believe that the government should not impose
> those sorts of social norms onto people. Whereas Conservatives in the
> United States tend to believe that legislating lifestyle (at least in a
> certain realm) is their moral duty.
>
> However, the popular conception of the Left, on the other hand, gravitates
> more towards social safety policies (unemployment, disability, single payer
> policies) and legislating morality in the other direction (you must accept
> X type persons).
>
> Really, it doesn't fit well in the traditional understanding of either the
> Right or the Left in the United States. So, often people who consider
> themselves on the Right will say it is on the Left, and people on the
> mainstream Left will say it is on the Right.
>
> There are also a couple of other reasons that Libertarianism is commonly
> misunderstood in the United States. Thus far, the public coverage has been
> poor, in general. Additionally, many different types of groups claim to be
> libertarian, and so for the average person, determining what is an accurate
> representation of libertarianism is extremely difficult.
>
> For example, I used to work for the Democratic Party, and my two closest
> friends worked in politics also, one as State point for the Green Party,
> and the other as NW State point for the Libertarian Party. Which of us
> faced the greatest number of misconceptions? My friend in the Libertarian
> Party. (And the difference between "Big L" and "little l" libertarians is
> not lost on me, I promise)
>
> So there's just not an appropriate level of understanding of what
> "libertarian" even means.
>
> (Sorry if that's a bit juvenile... You guys have always intimidated me
> from day one)
>
> -Sophia
>
> On Wed, May 17, 2017 at 11:43 PM, Dan TheBookMan <danust2012 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>
>>
>> To be sure, conservatives often claim to be libertarians. And many
>> mainstream folks roll libertarians into the Right. (Actually, another
>> completely wrong perception since libertarianism should be on the Left.)
>> Then again, the growth of the libertarian movement has led to many people
>> adopting the label who have no clue about stuff like legalizing sex work
>> and getting government completely out of dictating sexual stuff. But all
>> that started before last year, no?
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Dan
>>   Sample my Kindle books via:
>> http://author.to/DanUst
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170518/6997b7b2/attachment.html>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Thu May 18 14:21:05 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Thu, 18 May 2017 09:21:05 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Translation AI (was dying?)
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNT4AY5MrfqGK26U5XfWNikNcMXDOpqHz9xU_qERw7ovQw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALAdGNT4AY5MrfqGK26U5XfWNikNcMXDOpqHz9xU_qERw7ovQw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZAtCd-Gx_5y1v35GOQX_FiA5F2qQSHO87vhi8W+PoJxg@mail.gmail.com>

It is entirely possible to build an organic radio receptor.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1369702106714444 has
a bunch of links for organic circuit elements; it's a short hop from
there to organic radio transceivers.  adrian

So maybe it's not a very long hop to attaching/implanting/messing with the
genes, organic radios to/in our brains.  That would give us two parts of
the electromagnetic spectrum (light of course).  Couple that with an
organic radio transmitter and you have unbelievable numbers of
applications.  Plus, you won't have to worry about the interface between
organic/neurons/glial cells, and electronics.  bill w
---------------------
What happens if someone discovers how to keep brain
plasticity even in advanced age - and if we figure out how to make
neurons transmit information faster, and that starts seeing wide
adoption?  adrian

The plasticity would be great and I am not opposed to faster neurons, but
have this question:  how many great ideas, or even very good ones, sprang
into our heads like the benzene ring?  I get the idea that great
discoveries took lots of time, years even, to ferment and find final form,
which morphed into variations, applications, etc.  I am not so sure that
more speed would be an advantage in the creative part - maybe in the rote
memory part.

So I am not sure that faster would be better.  We'll never compete with PCs.

bill w


On Wed, May 17, 2017 at 10:53 PM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:

> It is entirely possible to build an organic radio receptor.
> http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1369702106714444 has
> a bunch of links for organic circuit elements; it's a short hop from
> there to organic radio transceivers.
>
> I've been trying not to spam about CubeCab, which is taking more of my
> time these days.  (Most of the day tomorrow, in fact.)  Although, I
> can think of one on-topic anecdote from just this past weekend about
> the state of translation AI.
>
> We're presenting at the Paris Air Show next month, specifically June
> 23rd.  I'm not going myself because I've got another presentation the
> preceding week and might have another one the weekend of the 23rd
> (details likely to be fluid until that weekend), but I am trying to
> coordinate logistics.  Part of that is coming up with a pair of
> free-standing posters for the booth.
>
> Currently we're thinking one will be all pictures and symbols, and the
> other will have text.  PAS asked that the text one be English on one
> side and French on the other, and to send them our posters' images for
> review.  (The deadline to submit was last Monday.  I assume this was
> so anyone who doesn't meet their standards has a month to redo.)  I do
> not speak French, but Google Translate does.
>
> The English text came out as kind of a manifesto.  (I can C&P the
> English & French text here if anyone asks - but I'll only do it if
> asked, to make sure it isn't spam.)  I auto-translated it into French,
> translated the result back into English to catch the few sentences
> that needed restating (just changed the word choices until the
> translation loop came up with something close enough to the original),
> and submitted it to PAS for review.
>
> I gather the PAS guys are in France and probably native French
> speakers, from their names, email addresses, and general contact
> information.  I very strongly suspect they have nontrivial quality
> standards: the Paris Air Show is the largest in the world (in the
> odd-numbered years its held in; there's another European one in
> even-numbered years), with representatives from all the major air
> forces and aerospace companies, so the organizers are unlikely to
> half-ass stuff.  This is likely to be the strongest test of French
> skills that I and any automation I use* will face in the immediate
> future.
>
> The simple round-trip translation and correction produced results good
> enough for them.  The only cost to me, the business owner needing to
> meet foreign marketing standards, was less than an extra half hour of
> my time - and now I have (kind of) written a manifesto in French, like
> many a proper revolutionary.
>
> * Notice how that comes off, BTW.  It's not "the robots do this for
> me", but "automation extends what I can do - and thus what I am
> responsible for, so the onus is on me to make sure I use it right".
> An increasing amount of this kind of experience leads me to suspect
> the Singularity will come via merging man and machine - perhaps
> involving mind uploading, or perhaps merely extreme cybernetics
> coupled with anti-aging advances - rather than AIs that never were
> human replacing humanity.
>
> As such, I wonder if things like learning how to learn (which is
> starting to be taught formally), and being more aware of our own
> bio-mental architecture, are among the early glimmers of the
> Singularity.  What happens if someone discovers how to keep brain
> plasticity even in advanced age - and if we figure out how to make
> neurons transmit information faster, and that starts seeing wide
> adoption?
>
> What does figuring out how to be smarter feel like, to yourself and to
> others?
>
> On Wed, May 17, 2017 at 4:53 PM, William Flynn Wallace
> <foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Is this group just not interested any more?  Don't want new discussions
> of
> > perhaps old ideas?
> >
> > Then I"ll post book reviews and health stuff - if no one objects.
> >
> > To be fair, objectors have to post something themselves.
> >
> > I can't believe all these brilliant minds don't have anything to say.
> >
> > Am reading Nate Silver's book Signal and Noise.  Will never believe an
> > economist again.
> >
> > Interesting if absurd idea:  can we build something organic that can
> receive
> > radio signals?
> >
> > bill w
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > extropy-chat mailing list
> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> >
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170518/b0f45e49/attachment.html>

From spike66 at att.net  Fri May 19 00:37:59 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 18 May 2017 17:37:59 -0700
Subject: [ExI] 48th anniversary of apollo 10
Message-ID: <01d401d2d038$2ad39120$807ab360$@att.net>

 

 

 

Here are some fun photos of an event that I still remember:

 

http://www.space.com/36886-apollo-10-nasa-moon-landing-rehearsal-mission-in-
photos.html?utm_source=notification

 

I was nearly finished with third grade.  My uncle had a part time job
delivering "newspapers" (younger people among us, ask your parents (they
were hardcopy of yesterday's news.))

 

My mother, ever the entrepreneur, noted hundreds of tourists lining US1
along the Indian River to watch the launch and came up with an idea.  The
Star Advocate (Titusville Florida) had a special edition, all about the
mission (most of it fluff about the astronauts actually (which most of the
locals knew was a bunch of BS (but the tourists didn't))) so she bought
several hundred copies and took my brother and me down to the river, sent us
out to sell them for 20 cents each.

 

My sales were slow, until I realized I would have to sell my dignity and
shout advertising, like the paperboys in the old-time movies.  No kidding,
it was either that or walk away with my dignity intact and very little
profit.  So, I wound up and put some diaphragm behind it.  Almost
immediately I was surrounded by elderly tourists wanting this special
edition newspaper, and most of them let me keep the extra nickel.

 

We sold the pile of newspapers but I walked away with most of the sales.  I
made more money than my 8 yr old self knew what to do with.  Fond memories
of a misspent childhood are these.

 

spike

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170518/d334fe76/attachment.html>

From pharos at gmail.com  Fri May 19 09:38:03 2017
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Fri, 19 May 2017 10:38:03 +0100
Subject: [ExI] 48th anniversary of apollo 10
In-Reply-To: <01d401d2d038$2ad39120$807ab360$@att.net>
References: <01d401d2d038$2ad39120$807ab360$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAL_armj4xw8bKHiTn0of5OdfUO8QKwZ=A5LdQDW5h_qsjv7TTg@mail.gmail.com>

On 19 May 2017 at 01:37, spike wrote:
> Here are some fun photos of an event that I still remember:
>
> http://www.space.com/36886-apollo-10-nasa-moon-landing-rehearsal-mission-in-photos.html?utm_source=notification
>
> I was nearly finished with third grade.  My uncle had a part time job
> delivering ?newspapers? (younger people among us, ask your parents (they
> were hardcopy of yesterday?s news.))
> My mother, ever the entrepreneur, noted hundreds of tourists lining US1
> along the Indian River to watch the launch and came up with an idea.  The
> Star Advocate (Titusville Florida) had a special edition, all about the
> mission (most of it fluff about the astronauts actually (which most of the
> locals knew was a bunch of BS (but the tourists didn?t))) so she bought
> several hundred copies and took my brother and me down to the river, sent us
> out to sell them for 20 cents each.
>
> My sales were slow, until I realized I would have to sell my dignity and
> shout advertising, like the paperboys in the old-time movies.  No kidding,
> it was either that or walk away with my dignity intact and very little
> profit.  So, I wound up and put some diaphragm behind it.  Almost
> immediately I was surrounded by elderly tourists wanting this special
> edition newspaper, and most of them let me keep the extra nickel.
>
> We sold the pile of newspapers but I walked away with most of the sales.  I
> made more money than my 8 yr old self knew what to do with.  Fond memories
> of a misspent childhood are these.
>

Yea, you were rich!  :)
25 cents in 1969 would be worth about 1.70 USD in 2017. So you had the
equivalent of several hundred dollars in today's funny money.

BillK



From sen.otaku at gmail.com  Fri May 19 11:43:04 2017
From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard)
Date: Fri, 19 May 2017 06:43:04 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Greener Urban Environment
Message-ID: <CABf9QbBmZrbeaa1Qgyv0kQSvQdMncvPqAWodQn5ff2KUk84NLQ@mail.gmail.com>

Now, I confess that when it somes to true science literature (papers,
etc) my literacy is quite low. I spend much more time reading theology
monographs. So a lot of this is pulled more from personal daydreaming
and the more "pop" science that is available.

Now, I've read some things which suggest that humans, psychologically,
fare better when surrounded by green space (of any size). And I'm sure
many of us have felt the pressure of particularly eye-sore urban
construction, in a mixed sandy-grey. Quite depressing.

So, with this information, a few things have been said, such as "well,
then for their own good, humans need to abandon cities". But of
course, we would want to take this the other way. Why not make cities
conform to the psychological needs of humans? (or I suppose we could
find a way to change the psychological drives of humans to better
adapt to a city environment...)

And I'm suggesting something a little bit beyond "just paint
everything green", though I guess that could be a good start.

A major issue in urban areas is water-runoff, caused by the blocking
of soil through building construction, but more pointedly through the
building of paved, multi-lane roads. Suppose here, we were to kill 2
birds with one stone, and develop a grass-like structure to replace
concrete and asphalt roads. Of course, the stuff would have to be
tough, but it could also be useful. If solar technology were to move
very far forward, conceivably every little blade of fake-grass would
be fake-photosynthesizing sunlight into electricity, which would be
carried through a root-like system. The blades of grass could be
programmed to show different colors, to mimic the type of markings we
have on roads today, and being connected to a network, could
pre-emptively reroute traffic from an area or encourage it to one side
or the other to create a passage for emergency vehicles. As
self-driving cars become more common, it could communicate to the car
through the tires. Urban runoff would become less of a problem, as
they could be designed to be somewhat porous, allowing volumes of
water to pass through. Cars involved in accidents could be moved onto
the shoulder by action of the grass as well.

Now of course, maintenance would become a very important thing at that
point, but I think that due to the networking capability of this
grass, perhaps small ant-sized robots could be designed, which would
perform maintenance on the grass, even while cars are passing
overhead. Grass surrounding the injured shoot would raise itself a
little taller so the ant could safely repair it, or perhaps replace
the whole blade.

Similarly, light posts could be re-imagined as local varieties of
trees, the leaves gathering sunlight during the day, and emitting
light from the underside of each leaf after dark, transmitting excess
energy produced down through it's trunk, into the lines created by the
grass. Telephone lines, if for some reason we chose to keep them above
ground could be styled like ivy, or some other prolific climber, Kudzu
for a personal favorite (despite how it's basically eating the entire
South alive in the United States. If you don't believe me, visit
Atlanta)

Additionally, government funded building projects would incorporate a
siding that looks like tiles and tiles of little leaves,
photosynthetic of course.

Of course, solar currently has a long way to go, especially
considering the toll it takes to produce cells and batteries, but this
is a bit pie-in-the-sky I suppose. Comments? Critiques?

I really should go to college >.<


From msd001 at gmail.com  Fri May 19 13:13:44 2017
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Fri, 19 May 2017 09:13:44 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Greener Urban Environment
In-Reply-To: <CABf9QbBmZrbeaa1Qgyv0kQSvQdMncvPqAWodQn5ff2KUk84NLQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABf9QbBmZrbeaa1Qgyv0kQSvQdMncvPqAWodQn5ff2KUk84NLQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOJFdbK7L=kEKTpKFN-kTSXMUmLkxCj5P3GdAouPh4FXv+YweQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, May 19, 2017 at 7:43 AM, SR Ballard <sen.otaku at gmail.com> wrote:

> Now, I've read some things which suggest that humans, psychologically,
> fare better when surrounded by green space (of any size). And I'm sure
> many of us have felt the pressure of particularly eye-sore urban
> construction, in a mixed sandy-grey. Quite depressing.
>
>
I think the costs associated with greening the urban environment will be
far more than retrofitting human psychology.

Augmented reality has the potential to make the dullest city appear as an
oasis or whatever else the consumer wants to see

Wearables have the added benefit that the consumer will pay you to get
them, while the public-good works require creative accounting of tax money.

Frankly, the AR solution facilitates the pay-per-view model to create
several levels of "nice" for your city.  I could see residents getting a
subscription discount for volume purchasing while the visitors are taken
advantage of -- much like the parking situation in many densely-populated
cities.




> I really should go to college >.<
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170519/4ab93bc7/attachment.html>

From atymes at gmail.com  Fri May 19 05:11:11 2017
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Thu, 18 May 2017 22:11:11 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Translation AI (was dying?)
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEZAtCd-Gx_5y1v35GOQX_FiA5F2qQSHO87vhi8W+PoJxg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALAdGNT4AY5MrfqGK26U5XfWNikNcMXDOpqHz9xU_qERw7ovQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZAtCd-Gx_5y1v35GOQX_FiA5F2qQSHO87vhi8W+PoJxg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNReqi7mwxCJBEkNPZR8fUE=avDzH3+A4Sju2k7L_+0d2w@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, May 18, 2017 at 7:21 AM, William Flynn Wallace
<foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
> So maybe it's not a very long hop to attaching/implanting/messing with the
> genes, organic radios to/in our brains.  That would give us two parts of the
> electromagnetic spectrum (light of course).  Couple that with an organic
> radio transmitter and you have unbelievable numbers of applications.  Plus,
> you won't have to worry about the interface between organic/neurons/glial
> cells, and electronics.  bill w

Just because it's possible doesn't mean it's easy.  It's a long hop to
doing it via DNA.

That said, extra-bandwidth perception has been contemplated in sci-fi
for a long tie.

Directly linking brains by radio has been considered so often it even
has a name: "radiotelepathy".  It was a minor plot element in a RPG I
ran not too many years ago.

> The plasticity would be great and I am not opposed to faster neurons, but
> have this question:  how many great ideas, or even very good ones, sprang
> into our heads like the benzene ring?  I get the idea that great discoveries
> took lots of time, years even, to ferment and find final form, which morphed
> into variations, applications, etc.  I am not so sure that more speed would
> be an advantage in the creative part - maybe in the rote memory part.
>
> So I am not sure that faster would be better.  We'll never compete with PCs.

Who says competition is necessary?  Merge with: let our PCs handle the
things they are good at while our brains (or emulated versions
thereof) handle the things we are good at, and improve both sides.


From spike66 at att.net  Fri May 19 14:33:25 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Fri, 19 May 2017 07:33:25 -0700
Subject: [ExI] 48th anniversary of apollo 10
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armj4xw8bKHiTn0of5OdfUO8QKwZ=A5LdQDW5h_qsjv7TTg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <01d401d2d038$2ad39120$807ab360$@att.net>
 <CAL_armj4xw8bKHiTn0of5OdfUO8QKwZ=A5LdQDW5h_qsjv7TTg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <003f01d2d0ac$e0a52f80$a1ef8e80$@att.net>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of BillK
Sent: Friday, May 19, 2017 2:38 AM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: Re: [ExI] 48th anniversary of apollo 10

On 19 May 2017 at 01:37, spike wrote:
> Here are some fun photos of an event that I still remember:
>
http://www.space.com/36886-apollo-10-nasa-moon-landing-rehearsal-mission-in-photos.html?utm_source=notification

...
>
>>... We sold the pile of newspapers but I walked away with most of the 
> sales.  I made more money than my 8 yr old self knew what to do with.  
> Fond memories of a misspent childhood are these.
>

>...Yea, you were rich!  :)
25 cents in 1969 would be worth about 1.70 USD in 2017. So you had the equivalent of several hundred dollars in today's funny money.

>...BillK

_______________________________________________


Ja, it depends on how you look at it.  I have been into computers as a hobby since they first showed up in 1978, reject AppleII motherboards which overheated in test.  I was hooked the first time I saw one operate: motorized algebra!  Back in those days, a fortune would buy very little computing power.  From that view, theirs was funny money, ours is real.

spike




From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri May 19 15:12:13 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 19 May 2017 10:12:13 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Translation AI (was dying?)
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNReqi7mwxCJBEkNPZR8fUE=avDzH3+A4Sju2k7L_+0d2w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALAdGNT4AY5MrfqGK26U5XfWNikNcMXDOpqHz9xU_qERw7ovQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZAtCd-Gx_5y1v35GOQX_FiA5F2qQSHO87vhi8W+PoJxg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNReqi7mwxCJBEkNPZR8fUE=avDzH3+A4Sju2k7L_+0d2w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZBzZkUD+LcqGYyJb8gp_0QtmY4sM6zXqs5ebdXN8gx3g@mail.gmail.com>

Adrian wrote:  Who says competition is necessary?  Merge with: let our PCs
handle the
things they are good at while our brains (or emulated versions
thereof) handle the things we are good at, and improve both sides.
-
?--------------?
(Spike - you might want to kick in some things you have learned by
homeschooling your son)
(out of all the hundreds of scifi books I've read I don't know how I missed
radiotelepathy)

I fully agree.  But a lot of people seem to be so impatient to hook
themselves up to PCs and whatnot to improve their abilities, then get
implants, etc.  What for?

Intro courses are for learning basic terminology, facts, and theories.
Some rote memory testing is inevitable, but I say leave that behind as fast
as possible and get to the 'learning to learn' that you mentioned.  Isaac
Asimov knew more things about more things than anyone, some have argued.
Does that make him smart?  It's not what you know, it's what you do with
it.  As far as I know he contributed nothing to science except publicizing
it and writing books.  No discoveries of which I am aware.

People with advanced knowledge look things up in books and so on when they
need to know things.  The trick is that they know what to do with that
knowledge (and where to get it, and how to evaluate it, and how to
synthesize it with what they already know, etc.) and others don't.  The
best scientists aren't necessarily good quiz show contestants.  People with
great rote memories are.

As far as I am concerned, learning to learn is the most important outcome
of a good education.  Then they can learn anything they want to and don't
need teachers anymore.

Unfortunately, a good bit of what is taught in college doesn't endow one
with a great ability to learn.  Learning one thing may not transfer at all
to other areas.  It may even hinder.  I am slightly aware of some
controversy in math education about what to teach first, and some say it
isn't arithmetic.

Bottom line:  we need to know a lot more about learning to learn, perhaps
by studying people who have learned independently.  We are far from knowing
just how to get people to that point.  We throw a lot of very disparate
things at students in college - English, philosophy, chemistry, music,
calculus - and don't really know if that is a good thing.  Maybe some don't
want to be well-rounded.  They want to be obsessed by one thing.  For
those, dropping out may be the best thing they ever did.

The best teacher is the best student.

bill w

On Fri, May 19, 2017 at 12:11 AM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thu, May 18, 2017 at 7:21 AM, William Flynn Wallace
> <foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > So maybe it's not a very long hop to attaching/implanting/messing with
> the
> > genes, organic radios to/in our brains.  That would give us two parts of
> the
> > electromagnetic spectrum (light of course).  Couple that with an organic
> > radio transmitter and you have unbelievable numbers of applications.
> Plus,
> > you won't have to worry about the interface between organic/neurons/glial
> > cells, and electronics.  bill w
>
> Just because it's possible doesn't mean it's easy.  It's a long hop to
> doing it via DNA.
>
> That said, extra-bandwidth perception has been contemplated in sci-fi
> for a long tie.
>
> Directly linking brains by radio has been considered so often it even
> has a name: "radiotelepathy".  It was a minor plot element in a RPG I
> ran not too many years ago.
>
> > The plasticity would be great and I am not opposed to faster neurons, but
> > have this question:  how many great ideas, or even very good ones, sprang
> > into our heads like the benzene ring?  I get the idea that great
> discoveries
> > took lots of time, years even, to ferment and find final form, which
> morphed
> > into variations, applications, etc.  I am not so sure that more speed
> would
> > be an advantage in the creative part - maybe in the rote memory part.
> >
> > So I am not sure that faster would be better.  We'll never compete with
> PCs.
>
> Who says competition is necessary?  Merge with: let our PCs handle the
> things they are good at while our brains (or emulated versions
> thereof) handle the things we are good at, and improve both sides.
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170519/71708f58/attachment.html>

From pharos at gmail.com  Fri May 19 15:41:41 2017
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Fri, 19 May 2017 16:41:41 +0100
Subject: [ExI] 48th anniversary of apollo 10
In-Reply-To: <003f01d2d0ac$e0a52f80$a1ef8e80$@att.net>
References: <01d401d2d038$2ad39120$807ab360$@att.net>
 <CAL_armj4xw8bKHiTn0of5OdfUO8QKwZ=A5LdQDW5h_qsjv7TTg@mail.gmail.com>
 <003f01d2d0ac$e0a52f80$a1ef8e80$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAL_armiyHBWx0wigL-3KSYKczZw52zQmqX0Nf4HO-d3UkHzKsg@mail.gmail.com>

On 19 May 2017 at 15:33, spike  wrote:
> Ja, it depends on how you look at it.  I have been into computers as a hobby since
> they first showed up in 1978, reject Apple II motherboards which overheated in test.
> I was hooked the first time I saw one operate: motorized algebra!  Back in those days,
> a fortune would buy very little computing power.
> From that view, theirs was funny money, ours is real.
>

Computers are a special case (as you know, of course).
In 1972 an 18oz. box of Kellogg's Corn Flakes cost 37 cents. In 2014
it cost $4.19.

On the other hand if you go back in time you could buy many things
that you can't nowadays (legally, anyway).
e.g. slaves, laudanum, radium watches, lead pipes, etc. etc.

Your childhood riches would have bought chocolate bars beyond the
dreams of avarice.  :)

BillK


From sparge at gmail.com  Fri May 19 16:00:34 2017
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Fri, 19 May 2017 12:00:34 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Greener Urban Environment
In-Reply-To: <CABf9QbBmZrbeaa1Qgyv0kQSvQdMncvPqAWodQn5ff2KUk84NLQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABf9QbBmZrbeaa1Qgyv0kQSvQdMncvPqAWodQn5ff2KUk84NLQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2cmyZJU6CZiCTZOMLiB1BKgRgiR9=UYEvUMJQz+5oamKw@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, May 19, 2017 at 7:43 AM, SR Ballard <sen.otaku at gmail.com> wrote:

> So, with this information, a few things have been said, such as "well,
> then for their own good, humans need to abandon cities". But of
> course, we would want to take this the other way. Why not make cities
> conform to the psychological needs of humans? (or I suppose we could
> find a way to change the psychological drives of humans to better
> adapt to a city environment...)
>

Why not both de-emphasize cities and make them better places to live?

A major issue in urban areas is water-runoff, caused by the blocking
> of soil through building construction, but more pointedly through the
> building of paved, multi-lane roads.


There's already permeable blacktop, but I'm not sure there's much to be
gained by that except possibly replenishing the water table.


> Suppose here, we were to kill 2
> birds with one stone, and develop a grass-like structure to replace
> concrete and asphalt roads.


I'd rather see ground-level transport go away in favor of subways and/or
elevated rail. If streets could be replaced with real greenspace for, e.g.,
vegetable gardening that would be a big win.

Of course, the stuff would have to be
> tough, but it could also be useful. If solar technology were to move
> very far forward, conceivably every little blade of fake-grass would
> be fake-photosynthesizing sunlight into electricity, which would be
> carried through a root-like system.


We dont' even have roofs covered with solar yet.


> The blades of grass could be
> programmed to show different colors, to mimic the type of markings we
> have on roads today, and being connected to a network, could
> pre-emptively reroute traffic from an area or encourage it to one side
> or the other to create a passage for emergency vehicles.


There shouldn't be ground-level traffic other than human-powered. IMO.


> As
> self-driving cars become more common, it could communicate to the car
> through the tires.


Surely wireless is better for that.


> Urban runoff would become less of a problem, as
> they could be designed to be somewhat porous, allowing volumes of
> water to pass through. Cars involved in accidents could be moved onto
> the shoulder by action of the grass as well.
>

Sorry, solar grass I can buy, but solar grass that can withstand vehicle
traffic and move vehicles out of the way is asking a bit much.


> Similarly, light posts could be re-imagined as local varieties of
> trees, the leaves gathering sunlight during the day, and emitting
> light from the underside of each leaf after dark, transmitting excess
> energy produced down through it's trunk, into the lines created by the
> grass.


Or perhaps have real trees that purify air and use motion-activated LED
lights?

I really should go to college >.<
>

I wouldn't recommend it. It's not an efficient use of your time and money.

-Dave
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170519/da4f442f/attachment.html>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri May 19 16:06:32 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 19 May 2017 11:06:32 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Fisher versus Bayes
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEaoAZGQt7tum8T6VxunhMO+WKi_dPGVNKB-p4USJyF5UA@mail.gmail.com>

Are any of you involved one way or another in this controversy?

Some journals are apparently considering rejecting articles using Fisher's
hypothesis testing and relying on Bayes alone.  Some think Bayes is the
future of science.



bill w
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170519/b6a13953/attachment.html>

From spike66 at att.net  Fri May 19 16:33:35 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Fri, 19 May 2017 09:33:35 -0700
Subject: [ExI] 48th anniversary of apollo 10
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armiyHBWx0wigL-3KSYKczZw52zQmqX0Nf4HO-d3UkHzKsg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <01d401d2d038$2ad39120$807ab360$@att.net>
 <CAL_armj4xw8bKHiTn0of5OdfUO8QKwZ=A5LdQDW5h_qsjv7TTg@mail.gmail.com>
 <003f01d2d0ac$e0a52f80$a1ef8e80$@att.net>
 <CAL_armiyHBWx0wigL-3KSYKczZw52zQmqX0Nf4HO-d3UkHzKsg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <006c01d2d0bd$a9fd6cc0$fdf84640$@att.net>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf
Of BillK
Sent: Friday, May 19, 2017 8:42 AM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: Re: [ExI] 48th anniversary of apollo 10

On 19 May 2017 at 15:33, spike  wrote:
>>... Ja, it depends on how you look at it.  I have been into computers as a

> hobby since they first showed up in 1978, reject Apple II motherboards
which overheated in test.
> I was hooked the first time I saw one operate: motorized algebra!  
> Back in those days, a fortune would buy very little computing power.
> From that view, theirs was funny money, ours is real.
>

>...Computers are a special case (as you know, of course).
In 1972 an 18oz. box of Kellogg's Corn Flakes cost 37 cents. In 2014 it cost
$4.19.

Ja.  My farmer friend likes to point out that in both cases, the box
contains less than 2 cents worth of corn.

>...On the other hand if you go back in time you could buy many things that
you can't nowadays (legally, anyway).
e.g. slaves, laudanum, radium watches, lead pipes, etc. etc...

All of these, including slaves, can be bought today, just not in any country
in which you would want to live.

>...Your childhood riches would have bought chocolate bars beyond the dreams
of avarice.  :)

>...BillK

Ja, I was never that much of a chocolate fan, but oh boy, if I had access to
the computers and learning opportunities modern children have, I would never
want to grow up.

spike



From spike66 at att.net  Fri May 19 16:47:18 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Fri, 19 May 2017 09:47:18 -0700
Subject: [ExI] can cities pull rank on states? was: RE: Greener Urban
	Environment
Message-ID: <006e01d2d0bf$94dc4440$be94ccc0$@att.net>

 

 

 

On Fri, May 19, 2017 at 7:43 AM, SR Ballard <sen.otaku at gmail.com <mailto:sen.otaku at gmail.com> > wrote:

>?So, with this information, a few things have been said, such as "well,
then for their own good, humans need to abandon cities". ? 

 

 

 

 

Fun spinoff topic presents itself for USians.  Marijuana is a controlled substance at the federal level, but the US constitution doesn?t explicitly grant the Fed the authority, depending on how you look at it.  States are pulling rank on the Fed now, and making grass legal, such as Colorado.  Not wishing for a showdown in the Supreme Court, where the Fed will likely lose, the Fed is standing down.

 

Durango Colorado is a tourist town where artists sell their work, bronze sculptures of cowboys roping beasts, (or cow-humans I think is where our language has evolved in the interest of gender inclusiveness (perhaps we can anticipate the day when such laborers, who were very literally uniformly male to within measurement error, in order to eschew gender and bovine exclusivity will be referred to as life form life forms (but I digress.)))

 

Durango has become a virtual magnet for useless addicts, which really is not at all compatible with its personality as a high-end tourist destination.  I remember going to Durango: everything there is clean, well maintained, orderly, beautiful.  That was twenty years ago.  Now the locals are complaining there are homeless dangerous-looking addicts lying about on their sidewalks, discouraging tourism.

 

If a state can pull rank on the Fed and make recreational grass legal, we might extrapolate that a US county or city can pull rank on a state and make it illegal.

 

Have we any legal eagles among us who might comment?

 

spike

 

 

 

 

 

 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170519/7e89e3d6/attachment.html>

From atymes at gmail.com  Fri May 19 21:41:10 2017
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Fri, 19 May 2017 14:41:10 -0700
Subject: [ExI] 48th anniversary of apollo 10
In-Reply-To: <006c01d2d0bd$a9fd6cc0$fdf84640$@att.net>
References: <01d401d2d038$2ad39120$807ab360$@att.net>
 <CAL_armj4xw8bKHiTn0of5OdfUO8QKwZ=A5LdQDW5h_qsjv7TTg@mail.gmail.com>
 <003f01d2d0ac$e0a52f80$a1ef8e80$@att.net>
 <CAL_armiyHBWx0wigL-3KSYKczZw52zQmqX0Nf4HO-d3UkHzKsg@mail.gmail.com>
 <006c01d2d0bd$a9fd6cc0$fdf84640$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNRjH31jWzSHeQV415=sKa4nso09G8A5UbsuwmuKzY1G=A@mail.gmail.com>

On May 19, 2017 9:48 AM, "spike" <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

Ja, I was never that much of a chocolate fan, but oh boy, if I had access to
the computers and learning opportunities modern children have, I would never
want to grow up.


You can buy computers these days - and many of the learning opportunities
can be accessed by adults.  There is no maximum age for most online
courses, for instance.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170519/2a172b51/attachment.html>

From sen.otaku at gmail.com  Sat May 20 00:00:28 2017
From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard)
Date: Fri, 19 May 2017 19:00:28 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Greener Urban Environment
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2cmyZJU6CZiCTZOMLiB1BKgRgiR9=UYEvUMJQz+5oamKw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABf9QbBmZrbeaa1Qgyv0kQSvQdMncvPqAWodQn5ff2KUk84NLQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2cmyZJU6CZiCTZOMLiB1BKgRgiR9=UYEvUMJQz+5oamKw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABf9QbDfQG3V8Vj-zyKseS7eWnZq60kUNrscA+wZTg0AtZVJCQ@mail.gmail.com>

> There's already permeable blacktop, but I'm not sure there's much to be
> gained by that except possibly replenishing the water table.

If we're talking about permeable blacktop as a current technology,
well, then you can't use it anywhere that freezes more than about once
per year. A very important reason for dealing with all the
non-permeable surfaces in Urban areas is very evident in places where
I live. It rains an hour and one must wait a few hours to go to some
parts of town. It rains for a few days and whole neighborhoods will
wash away.


> I'd rather see ground-level transport go away in favor of subways and/or
> elevated rail. If streets could be replaced with real greenspace for, e.g.,
> vegetable gardening that would be a big win.

Personally, I'd prefer that as well. I'm not sure if it's culturally
acceptable in certain places. Culture changes though. Subways have the
benefit of not killing wildlife and lost pets, etc.


> We dont' even have roofs covered with solar yet.

I was under the impression that these coming out in the next three
months or so would qualify: https://www.tesla.com/solarroof


>> As
>> self-driving cars become more common, it could communicate to the car
>> through the tires.
>
> Surely wireless is better for that.

I was implying more here that the signal wouldn't need to be very
strong, because the grass would be very close to the wheels. But point
taken.

> Sorry, solar grass I can buy, but solar grass that can withstand vehicle
> traffic and move vehicles out of the way is asking a bit much.

Don't we often talk about uploading our minds to computers? But I
suppose we could have additional structures that look like the solar
ones, but are not.

I think that a non-solar grass could be capable of moving objects
using the same type of motion that a centipede uses. Or to put it
another way: crowd surfing.


>> Similarly, light posts could be re-imagined as local varieties of
>> trees, the leaves gathering sunlight during the day, and emitting
>> light from the underside of each leaf after dark, transmitting excess
>> energy produced down through it's trunk, into the lines created by the
>> grass.
>
> Or perhaps have real trees that purify air and use motion-activated LED
> lights?

Real trees don't stand up very well to constantly having cars wrapped
around them  (on the highway). But in a suburban environment, that's a
much better solution.


From spike66 at att.net  Sat May 20 00:44:06 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Fri, 19 May 2017 17:44:06 -0700
Subject: [ExI] 48th anniversary of apollo 10
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNRjH31jWzSHeQV415=sKa4nso09G8A5UbsuwmuKzY1G=A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <01d401d2d038$2ad39120$807ab360$@att.net>
 <CAL_armj4xw8bKHiTn0of5OdfUO8QKwZ=A5LdQDW5h_qsjv7TTg@mail.gmail.com>
 <003f01d2d0ac$e0a52f80$a1ef8e80$@att.net>
 <CAL_armiyHBWx0wigL-3KSYKczZw52zQmqX0Nf4HO-d3UkHzKsg@mail.gmail.com>
 <006c01d2d0bd$a9fd6cc0$fdf84640$@att.net>
 <CALAdGNRjH31jWzSHeQV415=sKa4nso09G8A5UbsuwmuKzY1G=A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <005f01d2d102$3086b500$91941f00$@att.net>

 

 

From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes
Sent: Friday, May 19, 2017 2:41 PM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: Re: [ExI] 48th anniversary of apollo 10

 

On May 19, 2017 9:48 AM, "spike" <spike66 at att.net <mailto:spike66 at att.net> > wrote:

Ja, I was never that much of a chocolate fan, but oh boy, if I had access to
the computers and learning opportunities modern children have, I would never
want to grow up.

 

>?You can buy computers these days - and many of the learning opportunities can be accessed by adults.  There is no maximum age for most online courses, for instance.

 

I am a seasoned veteran at online courses.  I really got into them when my son started taking them about 3 yrs ago.  Oh they work, they work so well.  He learned coding right, object oriented coding from the start.  So now he doesn?t have all those bad coding habits I learned.  I wrote a capture the flag program with 20 personalities, one human player and 20 machine players.  I have no idea how to do something like that, or if I did, mine would suck.  His doesn?t.  He?s age 10.  Wish I coulda had a quarter of his opportunities.

 

spike

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170519/5ad95ba4/attachment.html>

From spike66 at att.net  Sat May 20 00:47:27 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Fri, 19 May 2017 17:47:27 -0700
Subject: [ExI] tabby's star dimming again
Message-ID: <006401d2d102$a8304080$f890c180$@att.net>

 

Whoa!  Check this!

 

http://www.popsci.com/alien-megastructure-star-dimming-again

 

 


That weird 'alien megastructure' star is dimming again right now


ASTRONOMERS ARE SCRAMBLING TO TAKE MEASUREMENTS.

By  <http://www.popsci.com/popsci-authors/sarah-fecht> Sarah Fecht 5 hours
ago

 

 

ILLUSTRATION OF THE STAR KIC 8462852

The weird light blips coming from this star might be caused by a family of
comets or collision debris, but scientists don't really know.

NASA/JPL-Caltech

In late 2015, astronomers noticed
<http://www.popsci.com/have-we-detected-alien-megastructures-around-distant-
star> something absurd happening around a distant star. Something massive
seemed to be blocking as much as 20 percent of the star's light.

 

That's way too much to be a planet. It might be comets, or maybe an
alien-made Dyson swarm. The problem is that
<http://www.popsci.com/could-black-hole-be-blocking-light-from-that-alien-me
gastructure-star> none of the hypotheses that scientists have come up with
(including the one about aliens) really fits with the data. That leads them
to think that some as-yet-undiscovered phenomena is happening around this
star.

 

 

 

Go there, go now, explain please!

 

spike

 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170519/5752a7fe/attachment.html>

From atymes at gmail.com  Sat May 20 02:54:53 2017
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Fri, 19 May 2017 19:54:53 -0700
Subject: [ExI] can cities pull rank on states? was: RE: Greener Urban
	Environment
In-Reply-To: <006e01d2d0bf$94dc4440$be94ccc0$@att.net>
References: <006e01d2d0bf$94dc4440$be94ccc0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNQCL=XJz+1QTAU1Mwko9TKmReyAOBbhG_bWP_eenaR=9A@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, May 19, 2017 at 9:47 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> States are
> pulling rank on the Fed now, and making grass legal, such as Colorado.  Not
> wishing for a showdown in the Supreme Court, where the Fed will likely lose,
> the Fed is standing down.

It's not quite "pulling rank".  The feds have one law; certain states,
another.  In theory the feds' law would win out if it went to
court...if the feds' law could stand up to state-grade legal
inspection.  As you note, the feds are standing down.

It is the same between the states and the cities: if the states' law
is sound, then can smack down any city that objects.  I seem to recall
this happening a few times throughout the history of the USA.  But if
the states' law is on such shaky footing that a mere city challenging
it would likely make it fall apart, the states are well-advised not to
press it upon any city that objects.


From spike66 at att.net  Sat May 20 03:49:45 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Fri, 19 May 2017 20:49:45 -0700
Subject: [ExI] can cities pull rank on states? was: RE: Greener
	Urban	Environment
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNQCL=XJz+1QTAU1Mwko9TKmReyAOBbhG_bWP_eenaR=9A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <006e01d2d0bf$94dc4440$be94ccc0$@att.net>
 <CALAdGNQCL=XJz+1QTAU1Mwko9TKmReyAOBbhG_bWP_eenaR=9A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00e801d2d11c$1fea3d60$5fbeb820$@att.net>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf
Of Adrian Tymes
Sent: Friday, May 19, 2017 7:55 PM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: Re: [ExI] can cities pull rank on states? was: RE: Greener Urban
Environment

On Fri, May 19, 2017 at 9:47 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>> States are pulling rank on the Fed now, and making grass legal, such as
Colorado.  
> Not wishing for a showdown in the Supreme Court, where the Fed will 
> likely lose, the Fed is standing down.

>It's not quite "pulling rank".  The feds have one law; certain states,
another.  In theory the feds' law would win out if it went to court...if the
feds' law could stand up to state-grade legal inspection.  As you note, the
feds are standing down.

>It is the same between the states and the cities: if the states' law is
sound, then can smack down any city that objects.  I seem to recall this
happening a few times throughout the history of the USA.  But if the states'
law is on such shaky footing that a mere city challenging it would likely
make it fall apart, the states are well-advised not to press it upon any
city that objects.
_______________________________________________



Ja, this one isn't obvious to me at all.  States outrank the Fed in any area
not among the enumerated rights by the tenth amendment.  I don't see
anything in the enumerated rights that would suggest the fed can make a
plant illegal.  So the states can pull rank there I would think.  But if
they do, and a city such as Durango Colorado decides dope is bad for
business and outlaws it there, and imposes a big fine and even a jail term,
I don't really see how they could appeal it to the state.  I am surprised a
test case hasn't come up.  I predict it will soon, and it might be in an
artsy Colorado town such as Durango, tired of dopers chasing away customers.

spike



From spike66 at att.net  Sat May 20 03:54:57 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Fri, 19 May 2017 20:54:57 -0700
Subject: [ExI] tabby's star dimming again
In-Reply-To: <006401d2d102$a8304080$f890c180$@att.net>
References: <006401d2d102$a8304080$f890c180$@att.net>
Message-ID: <00e901d2d11c$d975a120$8c60e360$@att.net>

 

 

From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf
Of spike
Sent: Friday, May 19, 2017 5:47 PM
To: 'ExI chat list' <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: [ExI] tabby's star dimming again

 

 

Whoa!  Check this!

 

http://www.popsci.com/alien-megastructure-star-dimming-again

 

 


That weird 'alien megastructure' star is dimming again right now


ASTRONOMERS ARE SCRAMBLING TO TAKE MEASUREMENTS.

By  <http://www.popsci.com/popsci-authors/sarah-fecht> Sarah Fecht 5 hours
ago

 

 

ILLUSTRATION OF THE STAR KIC 8462852

The weird light blips coming from this star might be caused by a family of
comets or collision debris, but scientists don't really know.

NASA/JPL-Caltech

In late 2015, astronomers noticed
<http://www.popsci.com/have-we-detected-alien-megastructures-around-distant-
star> something absurd happening around a distant star. Something massive
seemed to be blocking as much as 20 percent of the star's light.

 

That's way too much to be a planet. It might be comets, or maybe an
alien-made Dyson swarm. The problem is that
<http://www.popsci.com/could-black-hole-be-blocking-light-from-that-alien-me
gastructure-star> none of the hypotheses that scientists have come up with
(including the one about aliens) really fits with the data. That leads them
to think that some as-yet-undiscovered phenomena is happening around this
star.

 

 

 

Go there, go now, explain please!

 

spike

 

 

 

 

 

Here's the curve!  There is no known natural phenomenon that can do this
without leaving one helllll of an IR signature.

 



 

 

Johnny wan Clarknobi!  Where are ye, me lad?  How the hell can a star do
this?  Stars don't go there.  What's your theory sir?

 

spike

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170519/10812a23/attachment.html>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: image001.jpg
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 15909 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170519/10812a23/attachment.jpg>

From spike66 at att.net  Sat May 20 04:29:33 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Fri, 19 May 2017 21:29:33 -0700
Subject: [ExI] tabby's star dimming again
In-Reply-To: <00e901d2d11c$d975a120$8c60e360$@att.net>
References: <006401d2d102$a8304080$f890c180$@att.net>
 <00e901d2d11c$d975a120$8c60e360$@att.net>
Message-ID: <011201d2d121$af31d410$0d957c30$@att.net>

 

 

From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf
Of spike
.

 

Whoa!  Check this!

 

http://www.popsci.com/alien-megastructure-star-dimming-again

 

 


That weird 'alien megastructure' star is dimming again right now


ASTRONOMERS ARE SCRAMBLING TO TAKE MEASUREMENTS.

By  <http://www.popsci.com/popsci-authors/sarah-fecht> Sarah Fecht 5 hours
ago

 .

 

Here's the curve!  There is no known natural phenomenon that can do this
without leaving one helllll of an IR signature.

 



 

 

 

So why is old spike obsessing about all this?  First of all, I prefer
"middle-aged spike" please.

 

Why is middle-aged spike obsessing about all this?  I'll tell ya why
no-particular-age spike is obsessing about all this.  Late-youth spike is
obsessing about all this because an S-brain is a possible explanation for
how we could be seeing a sudden dimming without a corresponding IR
signature!

 

You know that argument I suggested about 6 yrs ago in this forum that any
M-brain would need to reflect its energy in a uniform direction in order to
prevent overheating?  I think. I think. that same argument would hold for
S-brains!  And if it does.  that would explain how the heck we could see a
2% drop in signal from Tabby's star in TWOOOO DAAAAAYYYYYS!  Without a cloud
of hot dust and debris!

 

Think about it my physics-enabled friends!  Do you recall aaaaaany lecture
in which you could have a star dimming that fast?  Ja, a debris cloud.  Do
you recall any lecture on debris clouds and how to recognize one?  Ja, they
warm up and have an IR signature.  Do you recall aaaaaany lecture which
would explain how a star can dim without a debris cloud or with a debris
cloud with no IR signature?  No, ya don't!  I sure don't.

 

An S-brain would do that, if. if it is correct that an S-brain needs to
direct its energy in a uniform direction for the same reason an M-brain
does, it must dump most of that good low-entropy energy. for some
fundamental reason, such as. it would overheat otherwise.  

 

And young Spike was the guy who advanced the notion, right here in good old
ExI-chat, that an M-brain and possibly an S-brain would need to radiate
low-entropy energy in order to avoid overheating, and would as a result, dim
a star with no visible IR signature, because it was directing the IR (or
higher (probably a lot higher than IR)) elsewhere, so we can't see it.

 

Oooooh these are exciting times to be living, so exciting!

 

Life. is.  gooooooooood.

 

spike

 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170519/1dcdfc1c/attachment.html>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: image001.jpg
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 15909 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170519/1dcdfc1c/attachment.jpg>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sat May 20 13:46:47 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sat, 20 May 2017 08:46:47 -0500
Subject: [ExI] can cities pull rank on states? was: RE: Greener Urban
	Environment
In-Reply-To: <00e801d2d11c$1fea3d60$5fbeb820$@att.net>
References: <006e01d2d0bf$94dc4440$be94ccc0$@att.net>
 <CALAdGNQCL=XJz+1QTAU1Mwko9TKmReyAOBbhG_bWP_eenaR=9A@mail.gmail.com>
 <00e801d2d11c$1fea3d60$5fbeb820$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYLmV1XRUPpHMDegk3ZVOukv4gW=LNmCSzyfPCG1CMVnA@mail.gmail.com>

I don't see
anything in the enumerated rights that would suggest the fed can make a
plant illegal.  spike

I think a lot of things have been OKed by the Supreme Court on the basis of
'for the general welfare'.  Many will say that that has been used to OK
just about anything.  I say that we're lucky that it hasn't been a lot more.

bill w

On Fri, May 19, 2017 at 10:49 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On
> Behalf
> Of Adrian Tymes
> Sent: Friday, May 19, 2017 7:55 PM
> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Subject: Re: [ExI] can cities pull rank on states? was: RE: Greener Urban
> Environment
>
> On Fri, May 19, 2017 at 9:47 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> >> States are pulling rank on the Fed now, and making grass legal, such as
> Colorado.
> > Not wishing for a showdown in the Supreme Court, where the Fed will
> > likely lose, the Fed is standing down.
>
> >It's not quite "pulling rank".  The feds have one law; certain states,
> another.  In theory the feds' law would win out if it went to court...if
> the
> feds' law could stand up to state-grade legal inspection.  As you note, the
> feds are standing down.
>
> >It is the same between the states and the cities: if the states' law is
> sound, then can smack down any city that objects.  I seem to recall this
> happening a few times throughout the history of the USA.  But if the
> states'
> law is on such shaky footing that a mere city challenging it would likely
> make it fall apart, the states are well-advised not to press it upon any
> city that objects.
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
> Ja, this one isn't obvious to me at all.  States outrank the Fed in any
> area
> not among the enumerated rights by the tenth amendment.  I don't see
> anything in the enumerated rights that would suggest the fed can make a
> plant illegal.  So the states can pull rank there I would think.  But if
> they do, and a city such as Durango Colorado decides dope is bad for
> business and outlaws it there, and imposes a big fine and even a jail term,
> I don't really see how they could appeal it to the state.  I am surprised a
> test case hasn't come up.  I predict it will soon, and it might be in an
> artsy Colorado town such as Durango, tired of dopers chasing away
> customers.
>
> spike
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170520/6137be94/attachment.html>

From johnkclark at gmail.com  Sat May 20 15:12:37 2017
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sat, 20 May 2017 11:12:37 -0400
Subject: [ExI] sex - was Re: The smart-stupid dimension
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEaJniH83cOmn6D1GH6qe687=DxX0Euwg5QnHoSnUjRA8Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaJniH83cOmn6D1GH6qe687=DxX0Euwg5QnHoSnUjRA8Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv3kdGrqNnEYL1Wpk=5uST2gsX8uJLcR2gsWAJojCcWNKQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Apr 30, 2017 at 1:34 PM, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
wrote:

>
> ? ?
> What do evolutionary theorists say about the origins of this? [prudishness]


Genes don't care if we have fun or not, they only care about getting passed
onto the next generation. So it's not surprising that genes would endow
their gene delivery vehicles (us) with a revulsion at the very thought of
mixing our genes with a very close relative because that would increased
the likelihood the resulting offspring would not live long enough to reach
reproductive age. If someone is unrelated to me my genes would say it's OK
to mix my genes with her if she looked healthy, but my genes don't want
competition so they would be prudish about 2 people unrelated to each other
and unrelated to me having sex and producing offspring.  My genes don't
want me to have sex with a close relative but they encourage me to be
altruistic to them because, being relatives, we have many genes in common.

But if all that is true why does homosexuality exist and why do people make
condoms? Because although genes can create tendencies they are not the only
thing driving behavior, not since Evolution invented brains half a billion
years ago. Brains were a necessary invention because the environment was
far too complex to preprogram the behavior most likely to benefit the
individual's genes in all circumstances. The downside of this, from the
genes point of view not ours, is that although still far from powerless the
genes are no longer it total control of the robots they created, us.

John K Clark     ?
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170520/28955a08/attachment.html>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sat May 20 15:20:21 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sat, 20 May 2017 10:20:21 -0500
Subject: [ExI] thought for the day
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYEN+-vi2ah4zksicvxxi58Eh5XJKBMh_cG1v=GF_jW2w@mail.gmail.com>

Crying is not a sign of weakness.  It is a sign of strength.

bill w
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170520/996044e2/attachment.html>

From sen.otaku at gmail.com  Sat May 20 15:47:33 2017
From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard)
Date: Sat, 20 May 2017 10:47:33 -0500
Subject: [ExI] sex - was Re: The smart-stupid dimension
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv3kdGrqNnEYL1Wpk=5uST2gsX8uJLcR2gsWAJojCcWNKQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaJniH83cOmn6D1GH6qe687=DxX0Euwg5QnHoSnUjRA8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv3kdGrqNnEYL1Wpk=5uST2gsX8uJLcR2gsWAJojCcWNKQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABf9QbAeOoX5u4BinzND6bBV6PN7EqE6+OkeuaywUTiaQk8oEQ@mail.gmail.com>

> Genes don't care if we have fun or not, they only care about getting passed
> onto the next generation. So it's not surprising that genes would endow
> their gene delivery vehicles (us) with a revulsion at the very thought of
> mixing our genes with a very close relative because that would increased the
> likelihood the resulting offspring would not live long enough to reach
> reproductive age.

Well, what are we counting as "very close relatives"? As far as first
and second cousins go, there are more than a handful cultures which
practice marriage with first cousin, and very many more with second
cousins. While I believe it was not common in England at the time, Mr.
& Mrs. Darwin were first cousins and got married, though they had to
jump through some hoops to do so.

The grossness/repulsion factor also seems to be related to
socialization. Perhaps uncommon, but there seems to be some kind of
attraction between biologically related people who did not grow up
knowing each other (the theory of Genetic Sexual Attraction).

However, I don't want to overstate my point. People have an
unconscious preference towards those with dissimilar immunity genes,
the evidence backs this up. Interestingly, there is some evidence that
women who take the Pill actually experience the opposite: attraction
to makes that are genetically more similar.
http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/275/1652/2715


> If someone is unrelated to me my genes would say it's OK
> to mix my genes with her if she looked healthy, but my genes don't want
> competition so they would be prudish about 2 people unrelated to each other
> and unrelated to me having sex and producing offspring.  My genes don't want
> me to have sex with a close relative but they encourage me to be altruistic
> to them because, being relatives, we have many genes in common.

I think it would be more true to say that my genes don't want
competition, but they do want to spread. So I want to take as many
partners as I can, but I don't want my partner(s) to take others.

So in light of that, prudishness and the institution of marriage may
be the solution to the above intentions, as fighting over sexual
partners would cause a lot of social conflicts. By limiting Men/Women
to X number of partners, with social and perhaps legal sanctions if
they don't comply, society reduces the time loss and destruction
caused by these kinds of fights.


From sen.otaku at gmail.com  Sat May 20 15:49:42 2017
From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard)
Date: Sat, 20 May 2017 10:49:42 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Cring, Was: thought for the day
Message-ID: <CABf9QbAFSz2c2iYSkQ0NpRR6M7XUiZMyKTMSENVGKcfLw-+jzA@mail.gmail.com>

And crying also makes you feel better, mentally and physically.

On Sat, May 20, 2017 at 10:20 AM, William Flynn Wallace
<foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Crying is not a sign of weakness.  It is a sign of strength.
>
> bill w
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>


From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sat May 20 16:01:51 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sat, 20 May 2017 11:01:51 -0500
Subject: [ExI] sex - was Re: The smart-stupid dimension
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv3kdGrqNnEYL1Wpk=5uST2gsX8uJLcR2gsWAJojCcWNKQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaJniH83cOmn6D1GH6qe687=DxX0Euwg5QnHoSnUjRA8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv3kdGrqNnEYL1Wpk=5uST2gsX8uJLcR2gsWAJojCcWNKQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEb-qu6LJmFxxTRY58O-ociCxJONZNJgJLGbU8Ee3XvgKQ@mail.gmail.com>

although still far from powerless the genes are no longer it total control
of the robots they created, us.

John K Clark     ?


Learning was a feature of organic life millions of years before man.  It
functioned as a feedback system to the instincts the genes provided.  So
even one-celled animals were not robots of a strict S-R type.  Now we
understand a bit about epigenetics, which change genes during our
lifetimes.  Depending on your focus, genes provide about half the causal
properties of our everyday behavior - more in some areas, less in others.

bill w

But if all that is true why does homosexuality exist and why do people make
condoms?

John K Clark     ?


I have seen evolutionary psychologists attribute homosexuality to the
advantages such people can provide a tribe.  Out of the mating game, which
is an advantage, the homosexual can contribute to the tribe in many ways,
such as helping his/her family like an old maid aunt or grandparent.
Whether it is a 'natural' thing or the result of genetics errors along the
way is not now known.  As Kinsey found out, it is certainly not an all or
nothing thing.  Freud argued that man was pansexual and socialization
narrowed the choices.  Any role for early conditioning is still unknown.
As we know, attempts to change the focus of the sex drive are useless.
Even Pavlov failed.
bill w

As for condoms, a man may not want to provide for the upbringing of a child
he may produce with certain women, and a woman may pressure a man to use
one because she doesn't want a baby - perhaps not at all or perhaps not
with this guy.  In the heat of passion it may be forgotten, which is a
victory for the genes.  Sexual diseases can play a role, of course.

On Sat, May 20, 2017 at 10:12 AM, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sun, Apr 30, 2017 at 1:34 PM, William Flynn Wallace <
> foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >
>> ? ?
>> What do evolutionary theorists say about the origins of this?
>> [prudishness]
>
>
> Genes don't care if we have fun or not, they only care about getting
> passed onto the next generation. So it's not surprising that genes would
> endow their gene delivery vehicles (us) with a revulsion at the very
> thought of mixing our genes with a very close relative because that would
> increased the likelihood the resulting offspring would not live long enough
> to reach reproductive age. If someone is unrelated to me my genes would say
> it's OK to mix my genes with her if she looked healthy, but my genes don't
> want competition so they would be prudish about 2 people unrelated to each
> other and unrelated to me having sex and producing offspring.  My genes
> don't want me to have sex with a close relative but they encourage me to be
> altruistic to them because, being relatives, we have many genes in common.
>
>
> But if all that is true why does homosexuality exist and why do people
> make condoms? Because although genes can create tendencies they are not the
> only thing driving behavior, not since Evolution invented brains half a
> billion years ago. Brains were a necessary invention because the
> environment was far too complex to preprogram the behavior most likely to
> benefit the individual's genes in all circumstances. The downside of this,
> from the genes point of view not ours, is that although still far from
> powerless the genes are no longer it total control of the robots they
> created, us.
>
> John K Clark     ?
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170520/1c74f680/attachment.html>

From johnkclark at gmail.com  Sat May 20 17:21:09 2017
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sat, 20 May 2017 13:21:09 -0400
Subject: [ExI] sex - was Re: The smart-stupid dimension
In-Reply-To: <CABf9QbAeOoX5u4BinzND6bBV6PN7EqE6+OkeuaywUTiaQk8oEQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaJniH83cOmn6D1GH6qe687=DxX0Euwg5QnHoSnUjRA8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv3kdGrqNnEYL1Wpk=5uST2gsX8uJLcR2gsWAJojCcWNKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABf9QbAeOoX5u4BinzND6bBV6PN7EqE6+OkeuaywUTiaQk8oEQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv3Jv8gigpaiNKbMmj0W3FRPkEz73XHPsyjDZe5aeSqdbg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, May 20, 2017 at 11:47 AM, SR Ballard <sen.otaku at gmail.com> wrote:

Mr.& Mrs. Darwin were first cousins and got married, though they had to
> jump through some hoops to do so.
>

?And in later life Darwin felt rather guilty about it after doing some
experiments with inbreeding in plants, he wrote to a friend "my children
are not very robust" and said "consanguineous marriages lead to deafness &
dumbness, blindness [etc.]". Of Darwin's 10 children 3 died before the age
of 10 and 3 more had no children despite long marriages.

On the other hand 3 of his sons grew up to become fellows of the Royal
Society.

John K Clark

>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170520/ce412447/attachment.html>

From atymes at gmail.com  Sat May 20 17:00:56 2017
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sat, 20 May 2017 10:00:56 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Translation AI (was dying?)
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEZBzZkUD+LcqGYyJb8gp_0QtmY4sM6zXqs5ebdXN8gx3g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALAdGNT4AY5MrfqGK26U5XfWNikNcMXDOpqHz9xU_qERw7ovQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZAtCd-Gx_5y1v35GOQX_FiA5F2qQSHO87vhi8W+PoJxg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNReqi7mwxCJBEkNPZR8fUE=avDzH3+A4Sju2k7L_+0d2w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZBzZkUD+LcqGYyJb8gp_0QtmY4sM6zXqs5ebdXN8gx3g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNQWqJTOpj=W-4r2RM+m6yguSTSGXvpDfzEVrQ=RkRTw=g@mail.gmail.com>

 On Fri, May 19, 2017 at 8:12 AM, William Flynn Wallace
<foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
> (out of all the hundreds of scifi books I've read I don't know how I missed
> radiotelepathy)

It's a rare concept, and I am not certain "radiotelepathy" is in fact
the dominant term for it.  But I've seen it in multiple places.

> I fully agree.  But a lot of people seem to be so impatient to hook
> themselves up to PCs and whatnot to improve their abilities, then get
> implants, etc.  What for?

To improve their abilities, presumably.

> Intro courses are for learning basic terminology, facts, and theories.  Some
> rote memory testing is inevitable, but I say leave that behind as fast as
> possible and get to the 'learning to learn' that you mentioned.

FWIW, https://www.coursera.org/learn/learning-how-to-learn is one form
of what I'm talking about.  Anyone generally capable of taking an
online course (for instance, literate in the traditional and computer
senses) can skip to this right away.  (I double-checked the link, and
there may be a paywall now, but when I took this course it was free.
There might still be an option to take the course w/out the
Certificate they're mentioning.)

I would not mind hearing others' opinion of the course (as revised:
it's been a while since I took it), if anyone wants to try.


From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sat May 20 20:20:52 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sat, 20 May 2017 15:20:52 -0500
Subject: [ExI] vet my Bayesian logic, please
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEaXi7zaicK54fUWijiGL+cAV1Drp04v=ofDMqLTQb=mKA@mail.gmail.com>

A book by Levitin, a Field Guide to Lies, includes a discussion of illusory
correlation.  He cites an example of the identical twins who shared quite a
few uncommon traits and then calls the idea that something genetic was
involved an example of illusory correlation.  Here is what I want to write
to him:

Now I know about illusory correlation as well as anyone, but let's think
Bayesian for a moment.

Take that picture of the identical twins raised apart sitting on their
stools by the nearly identical workshops.  OK, so there's really a limited
number of ways to set up a workshop, so that's not really meaningful.

But the kicker was that both made miniature furniture!  What are the odds
of that?  Let's come back to that.

If I were informed that those twins both ate at McDonalds. favorite color
was blue, drove a Ford, had only a high school degree, and had another
hundred things in common, I would sniff at any attempt to call it more than
coincidence - illusory correlation.

But - what about flushing before using?  I've never seen that, though I've
done it a few times when it had not been flushed.  Taping pencils and pens.
Scratching their heads with their middle finger.  Never seen that.  (There
were more similarities in the original article.)

So, I propose that we have to think Bayesian.  Just what are the prior
probabilities of any two people *picked at random* sharing *all* of those
highly uncommon behaviors?  Not just one or two, but all of them.

Unlikely to the extreme, I think.  I am left not knowing what to think, but
I do think I'd keep the idea that such shared behaviors, seemingly distant
from the kind of behaviors we know have some genetic influence, may not be
random, filed for future reference.

bill w  (rewrite the last sentence for clarity?)
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170520/0886f613/attachment.html>

From johnkclark at gmail.com  Sat May 20 23:47:25 2017
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sat, 20 May 2017 19:47:25 -0400
Subject: [ExI] letter
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEboTcOTZXhE8Y3dNeaJPPLX-Sk=JqvNkC1q5OvFGx4bjQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEboTcOTZXhE8Y3dNeaJPPLX-Sk=JqvNkC1q5OvFGx4bjQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv2=A6zFfYCNaH9U_FeTAjQHnYJWOCY6r50A9YDdYJhKag@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, May 16, 2017 at 10:43 AM, William Flynn Wallace

?> ?
> This has to be the most mean-spirited thing I have ever seen in 75 years.
> Have we just lost our way?  This is not the American I know and love.


?Hey cheer up, I would guess there is a 50% chance Trump will resign or be
impeached by Christmas. I don't worry as much as I once did about Trump
becoming a dictator, as much as he'd love to become one it's becoming
increasingly clear he just doesn't have the brains to do so. However I
still worry about Trump starting a war, you don't need much brains for
that.

 John K Clark    ?
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170520/e7913ae1/attachment.html>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sun May 21 00:36:59 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sat, 20 May 2017 19:36:59 -0500
Subject: [ExI] letter
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv2=A6zFfYCNaH9U_FeTAjQHnYJWOCY6r50A9YDdYJhKag@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEboTcOTZXhE8Y3dNeaJPPLX-Sk=JqvNkC1q5OvFGx4bjQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv2=A6zFfYCNaH9U_FeTAjQHnYJWOCY6r50A9YDdYJhKag@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbm2TzUF7MCkQnOk6MXUDdwR_BcEjToV4Rdb4nAKjWH8Q@mail.gmail.com>

Why couldn't the directive against letting people in who are coming from
Muslim countries stand?  That's where Trump is and maybe he should stay
there.

Yeah, I don't know how much more of him his own party can stand.  Not much
more, I hope.  But if he goes today, he'll still lock up the title of worst
president in history, replacing Bush Jr.

bill w

On Sat, May 20, 2017 at 6:47 PM, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tue, May 16, 2017 at 10:43 AM, William Flynn Wallace
>
> ?> ?
>> This has to be the most mean-spirited thing I have ever seen in 75 years.
>> Have we just lost our way?  This is not the American I know and love.
>
>
> ?Hey cheer up, I would guess there is a 50% chance Trump will resign or be
> impeached by Christmas. I don't worry as much as I once did about Trump
> becoming a dictator, as much as he'd love to become one it's becoming
> increasingly clear he just doesn't have the brains to do so. However I
> still worry about Trump starting a war, you don't need much brains for
> that.
>
>  John K Clark    ?
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170520/4a6c968f/attachment.html>

From johnkclark at gmail.com  Sun May 21 00:49:33 2017
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sat, 20 May 2017 20:49:33 -0400
Subject: [ExI] dying?
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEbfbDOW=KH-XJ-FjwhOZjrnddc2V6Z+S1kX00jvcUo7hg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbfbDOW=KH-XJ-FjwhOZjrnddc2V6Z+S1kX00jvcUo7hg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv2A9E4=NutdUSWLF6tobSEdnMeHcc=dfeoW_T50uWhHxw@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, May 17, 2017  William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:


> ?> ?
> Interesting if absurd idea:  can we build something organic that can
> receive radio signals?
>

?Well, there are electrically c
onductive polymer
?s you could use as a antenna, and for the detector use a crystal of
lead sulfide
as they did in the old crystal sets, I know that's not a organic compound
but I imagine organic process ?could make it from lead and sulfur.

Speaking of absurd ideas, I always wondered if biology was up to the task
of making diamonds; Evolution never ha
?d?
a need to produce such a thing so it
?never did
, but with genetic engineering.....    Imagine a tree that had big diamonds
at the center of its peaches instead of just a pit.

No natural
?
enzyme
?
can handle carbon atoms delicately enough to arrange them in a lattice, but
could a man made one? It would be very hard for a human to design such a
molecule, but that's just the sort of thing a quantum computer would be
good at.

? John K Clark?


.

>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170520/974039d9/attachment.html>

From spike66 at att.net  Sun May 21 03:48:47 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sat, 20 May 2017 20:48:47 -0700
Subject: [ExI] sex - was Re: The smart-stupid dimension
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEb-qu6LJmFxxTRY58O-ociCxJONZNJgJLGbU8Ee3XvgKQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaJniH83cOmn6D1GH6qe687=DxX0Euwg5QnHoSnUjRA8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv3kdGrqNnEYL1Wpk=5uST2gsX8uJLcR2gsWAJojCcWNKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEb-qu6LJmFxxTRY58O-ociCxJONZNJgJLGbU8Ee3XvgKQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <011301d2d1e5$275bcf90$76136eb0$@att.net>

 

 

 

But if all that is true why does homosexuality exist and why do people make condoms?

 

John K Clark     ?

 

 

Human population growth seldom has as a limiting factor the number of hetero males present.  So the presence of male homosexuality wouldn?t much harm that population?s ability to grow.  But they might in some ways help the mating males (no not the popular show Queer Eye for the Straight Guy (but come to think of it, perhaps that way too.)) 

 

Female homosexuals are said to be more easily able to swing the other way, so they could still produce offspring.  I do not present myself as an expert or even competent in this area.  Understatement: I suck at homosexuality.  But in theory it seems to me the notion of homosexuality benefiting the population is viable by the line of reasoning vaguely sketched above.

 

spike

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170520/c0bba587/attachment.html>

From sen.otaku at gmail.com  Sun May 21 08:45:10 2017
From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard)
Date: Sun, 21 May 2017 03:45:10 -0500
Subject: [ExI] letter
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEbm2TzUF7MCkQnOk6MXUDdwR_BcEjToV4Rdb4nAKjWH8Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEboTcOTZXhE8Y3dNeaJPPLX-Sk=JqvNkC1q5OvFGx4bjQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv2=A6zFfYCNaH9U_FeTAjQHnYJWOCY6r50A9YDdYJhKag@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEbm2TzUF7MCkQnOk6MXUDdwR_BcEjToV4Rdb4nAKjWH8Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABf9QbCQM_b-sYTv6EEv=fkiNPUTmS3AFZ-urpYL_MZ9Z7vEGA@mail.gmail.com>

At least I only thought Bush Jr. was inept, not completely unfit. I
always felt Bush Jr. did what he thought was best (even if in the end
it probably wasn't). I can extend no such courtesy to Mr. Trump,
unfortunately.

On Sat, May 20, 2017 at 7:36 PM, William Flynn Wallace
<foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Why couldn't the directive against letting people in who are coming from
> Muslim countries stand?  That's where Trump is and maybe he should stay
> there.
>
> Yeah, I don't know how much more of him his own party can stand.  Not much
> more, I hope.  But if he goes today, he'll still lock up the title of worst
> president in history, replacing Bush Jr.
>
> bill w
>
> On Sat, May 20, 2017 at 6:47 PM, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, May 16, 2017 at 10:43 AM, William Flynn Wallace
>>
>>> >
>>> This has to be the most mean-spirited thing I have ever seen in 75 years.
>>> Have we just lost our way?  This is not the American I know and love.
>>
>>
>> Hey cheer up, I would guess there is a 50% chance Trump will resign or be
>> impeached by Christmas. I don't worry as much as I once did about Trump
>> becoming a dictator, as much as he'd love to become one it's becoming
>> increasingly clear he just doesn't have the brains to do so. However I still
>> worry about Trump starting a war, you don't need much brains for that.
>>
>>  John K Clark
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>


From sen.otaku at gmail.com  Sun May 21 09:08:17 2017
From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard)
Date: Sun, 21 May 2017 04:08:17 -0500
Subject: [ExI] sex - was Re: The smart-stupid dimension
In-Reply-To: <011301d2d1e5$275bcf90$76136eb0$@att.net>
References: <CAO+xQEaJniH83cOmn6D1GH6qe687=DxX0Euwg5QnHoSnUjRA8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv3kdGrqNnEYL1Wpk=5uST2gsX8uJLcR2gsWAJojCcWNKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEb-qu6LJmFxxTRY58O-ociCxJONZNJgJLGbU8Ee3XvgKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <011301d2d1e5$275bcf90$76136eb0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CABf9QbCg1itA-E6KKa-xHb1hUj9RxH6=wr7mwJnv+aZgArpcig@mail.gmail.com>

Male Homosexuality

http://www.pnas.org/content/103/28/10771

"The most consistent biodemographic correlate of sexual orientation in
men is the number of older brothers (fraternal birth order). The
mechanism underlying this effect remains unknown."

-

https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/journal-of-biosocial-science/article/relation-of-birth-order-to-sexual-orientation-in-men-and-women/31B99DDC5BE81454D318706DAC3C0728

"Homosexual men have a higher mean birth order than do heterosexual
men, primarily because they have a greater number of older brothers.
The purpose of this study was to determine whether the same difference
occurs in homosexual vs heterosexual women."

(short answer, no, it doesn't)

-

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0191886900000519

"Several studies have shown that older brothers increase the
probability of homosexuality in later-born males. The maternal immune
hypothesis proposes that this phenomenon reflects the progressive
immunization of some mothers to Y-linked minor histocompatibility
antigens (H?Y antigens) by each succeeding male fetus"

-

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0018506X05002138

"The present study investigated evidence for an interaction between
two of the best established etiologic factors, or markers of etiologic
factors, in the literature on male homosexuality: fraternal birth
order and hand preference."

This one is pretty interesting.

-

So it may be that we evolved this way because the mother already had
enough male offspring, and continuing to have heterosexual male
offspring may have introduced too much competition. Or as was said,
because males without offspring can attend to other social duties and
needs, and so they increase the passage of the genes of their
relatives.



From pharos at gmail.com  Sun May 21 09:15:49 2017
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sun, 21 May 2017 10:15:49 +0100
Subject: [ExI] letter
In-Reply-To: <CABf9QbCQM_b-sYTv6EEv=fkiNPUTmS3AFZ-urpYL_MZ9Z7vEGA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEboTcOTZXhE8Y3dNeaJPPLX-Sk=JqvNkC1q5OvFGx4bjQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv2=A6zFfYCNaH9U_FeTAjQHnYJWOCY6r50A9YDdYJhKag@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEbm2TzUF7MCkQnOk6MXUDdwR_BcEjToV4Rdb4nAKjWH8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABf9QbCQM_b-sYTv6EEv=fkiNPUTmS3AFZ-urpYL_MZ9Z7vEGA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armivfrJ9OheZS-HUQLKzwAjA06aak3VhGtjqvK2hBPUN6A@mail.gmail.com>

On 21 May 2017 at 09:45, SR Ballard wrote:
> At least I only thought Bush Jr. was inept, not completely unfit. I
> always felt Bush Jr. did what he thought was best (even if in the end
> it probably wasn't). I can extend no such courtesy to Mr. Trump,
> unfortunately.
>

Our view of Trump comes from the section of the population where life
is pretty much AOK.
Trump supporters come mostly from middle America where life is an
ongoing disaster.
The Democrats made the big mistake of ignoring the miserable
conditions of life in middle America.
Trump is a result of earlier bad government.
Government needs to be for ALL the people.

BillK


From sen.otaku at gmail.com  Sun May 21 10:44:35 2017
From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard)
Date: Sun, 21 May 2017 05:44:35 -0500
Subject: [ExI] letter
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armivfrJ9OheZS-HUQLKzwAjA06aak3VhGtjqvK2hBPUN6A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEboTcOTZXhE8Y3dNeaJPPLX-Sk=JqvNkC1q5OvFGx4bjQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv2=A6zFfYCNaH9U_FeTAjQHnYJWOCY6r50A9YDdYJhKag@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEbm2TzUF7MCkQnOk6MXUDdwR_BcEjToV4Rdb4nAKjWH8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABf9QbCQM_b-sYTv6EEv=fkiNPUTmS3AFZ-urpYL_MZ9Z7vEGA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armivfrJ9OheZS-HUQLKzwAjA06aak3VhGtjqvK2hBPUN6A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABf9QbBsgPbx9zRs_x2P5SFTh2Pn3_woTiCTG4yiytu+iwvcDA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, May 21, 2017 at 4:15 AM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:
> Our view of Trump comes from the section of the population where life
> is pretty much AOK.
> Trump supporters come mostly from middle America where life is an
> ongoing disaster.
> The Democrats made the big mistake of ignoring the miserable
> conditions of life in middle America.
> Trump is a result of earlier bad government.
> Government needs to be for ALL the people.
>
> BillK

My view of Trump comes from the lower middle class. My parents have to
decide every year if they want to spend their tax returns on their
teeth, or on their cars. My parents couldn't afford a house so we
moved into an "RV" and I don't mean one of those fancy-pants
old-retiree ones either. I mean that it was meant to be lived in 8
weeks a year, for two years, and replaced. We lived in it for 5 years.
By the end we had no toilet, no hot water, no air conditioning, and
one working electrical outlet. Bugs crawled in through the hatch next
to my bed, and walked all over me.

Growing up, my parents were on food stamps for a while. I always
qualified for free lunch. I went on no school field-trips that cost
more than $10 my entire education. I could not use the scholarship I
got to a prestigious private school in my area because my mom couldn't
afford to drive the ten miles each way. One month in my childhood, all
my mom could afford to buy was a starting-to-rot 50lb bag of potatoes,
and so that's what we ate for a month, with odds and ends. Before I
turned 18, we could only afford to take me to the dentist once. I
received all my immunizations through government subsidized programs.

My parents pulled all of our furniture out of other people's trash. My
parents were too poor to buy me clothes and shoes, so my grandmother
thrifted them. My parents nor myself ever owned a new bed, but used
the ones passed down to us by other family members. Cell phones and
similar things were received in the same way. As a kid, we had a
computer because my mom was good with them, and would salvage
computers that other people put away. My parents never bought a
moniter, television, any tables or chairs. My mother never bought
dishes while I was living at home, other than tea kettles. We used the
plates she got as a wedding present until I used my birthday money one
year to buy her some new cups and glasses when I was in 8th grade.

We would go out to eat the first Tuesday of every month after the 5th
if we could afford it. Some months we couldn't afford the $15-20. My
mother avoided getting glasses that she NEEDED for almost 15 years
because they could barely afford to keep up with my fathers. My mother
darned all of our socks, hemmed all of our pants, fixed our button
holes, and sewed our pants back together. We had a garden because we
NEEDED it.

I remember as a young child, going with my mother to Church Aid
events, where we would have to sit quietly and listen to them demonize
my heritage with their pointed anti-semitism. My mother suffered it
patiently to get the bread and the canned goods. On one occasion were
we even locked in a room for a period of time, then prayed over after
the pastor finally arrived.

So trust me when I say, I understand the frustration and pain that a
lot of people in America feel. I understand firsthand the frustration
and anger of seeing a paycheck dwindle, or layoffs, because I've seen
what they've done to my family and my life. My parents are quite good
at budgeting, or we could have been in a much worse situation. I still
get extremely anxious if the cupboard is not full. A few years ago, my
income was $473, and my rent was $374, and my utility was about $70.
So I had $30 dollars left to buy toilet paper and food. Did I starve?
no. For 9 months I waited to get my approval for foodstamps (they lost
it in the mail on 3 seperate occasions). After eating ramen noodles
and poptarts, do you know how much I cried when I bought a can of
peas? When I had my first slice of bread? If you're not familiar with
Food Stamps, if they approve you, they'll backpay you from the date of
your application. So I had a lot of money. In fact, that foodstamp
budget was more than my parents (for a family of three) could ever
afford to pay on groceries. I bought about $200 dollars worth of
canned fruits, vegetables, and meats, and when I got home I couldn't
stop crying and looking at them.

I understand the frustrations that people feel, but I don't understand
why they felt Trump would fix that, honestly. I suppose they were
mislead by number and range of business ventures, or they felt that he
was confident, rather than realizing that he's an arrogant person.
People also seemed to believe that he was a hardcore Christian, which
surprises me, actually.

But at the same time, I don't feel there weren't great alternatives. I
enjoyed when I worked in politics and had planned to do so again this
past election. But late 2014/early 2015 I saw who was putting out
exploratories, and I sat it out. And honestly I'm glad for it.

Statistically speaking, we were probably going to get a Republican,
take that as you will. But why did it have to be Trump? I both
understand, and don't understand it at the same time.

-Sophia


From sen.otaku at gmail.com  Sun May 21 11:00:08 2017
From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard)
Date: Sun, 21 May 2017 06:00:08 -0500
Subject: [ExI] letter
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armivfrJ9OheZS-HUQLKzwAjA06aak3VhGtjqvK2hBPUN6A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEboTcOTZXhE8Y3dNeaJPPLX-Sk=JqvNkC1q5OvFGx4bjQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv2=A6zFfYCNaH9U_FeTAjQHnYJWOCY6r50A9YDdYJhKag@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEbm2TzUF7MCkQnOk6MXUDdwR_BcEjToV4Rdb4nAKjWH8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABf9QbCQM_b-sYTv6EEv=fkiNPUTmS3AFZ-urpYL_MZ9Z7vEGA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armivfrJ9OheZS-HUQLKzwAjA06aak3VhGtjqvK2hBPUN6A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABf9QbCRXcY5YRsBN8nZreay4D-CZGS+jazBpT3cr0t48-XZZg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, May 21, 2017 at 4:15 AM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:
> Our view of Trump comes from the section of the population where life
> is pretty much AOK.
> Trump supporters come mostly from middle America where life is an
> ongoing disaster.
> The Democrats made the big mistake of ignoring the miserable
> conditions of life in middle America.
> Trump is a result of earlier bad government.
> Government needs to be for ALL the people.
>
> BillK

My view of Trump comes from the lower middle class. My parents have to
decide every year if they want to spend their tax returns on their
teeth, or on their cars. My parents couldn't afford a house so we
moved into an "RV" and I don't mean one of those fancy-pants
old-retiree ones either. I mean that it was meant to be lived in 8
weeks a year, for two years, and replaced. We lived in it for 5 years.
By the end we had no toilet, no hot water, no air conditioning, and
one working electrical outlet. Bugs crawled in through the hatch next
to my bed, and walked all over me.

Growing up, my parents were on food stamps for a while. I always
qualified for free lunch. I went on no school field-trips that cost
more than $10 my entire education. I could not use the scholarship I
got to a prestigious private school in my area because my mom couldn't
afford to drive the ten miles each way. One month in my childhood, all
my mom could afford to buy was a starting-to-rot 50lb bag of potatoes,
and so that's what we ate for a month, with odds and ends. Before I
turned 18, we could only afford to take me to the dentist once. I
recieved all my immunizations through government subsidized programs.

My parents pulled all of our furniture out of other people's trash. My
parents were too poor to buy me clothes and shoes, so my grandmother
thrifted them. My parents nor myself ever owned a new bed, but used
the ones passed down to us by other family members. Cell phones and
similar things were recieved in the same way. As a kid, we had a
computer because my mom was good with them, and would salvage
computers that other people put away. My parents never


From pharos at gmail.com  Sun May 21 11:15:24 2017
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sun, 21 May 2017 12:15:24 +0100
Subject: [ExI] letter
In-Reply-To: <CABf9QbBsgPbx9zRs_x2P5SFTh2Pn3_woTiCTG4yiytu+iwvcDA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEboTcOTZXhE8Y3dNeaJPPLX-Sk=JqvNkC1q5OvFGx4bjQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv2=A6zFfYCNaH9U_FeTAjQHnYJWOCY6r50A9YDdYJhKag@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEbm2TzUF7MCkQnOk6MXUDdwR_BcEjToV4Rdb4nAKjWH8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABf9QbCQM_b-sYTv6EEv=fkiNPUTmS3AFZ-urpYL_MZ9Z7vEGA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armivfrJ9OheZS-HUQLKzwAjA06aak3VhGtjqvK2hBPUN6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABf9QbBsgPbx9zRs_x2P5SFTh2Pn3_woTiCTG4yiytu+iwvcDA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armhQx54PteNcAYQ2K4uooWXTbRPM1urRbEwixKyGrC8M=A@mail.gmail.com>

On 21 May 2017 at 11:44, SR Ballard  wrote:
> My view of Trump comes from the lower middle class. My parents have to
> decide every year if they want to spend their tax returns on their
> teeth, or on their cars. My parents couldn't afford a house so we
> moved into an "RV" and I don't mean one of those fancy-pants
> old-retiree ones either. I mean that it was meant to be lived in 8
> weeks a year, for two years, and replaced. We lived in it for 5 years.
> By the end we had no toilet, no hot water, no air conditioning, and
> one working electrical outlet. Bugs crawled in through the hatch next
> to my bed, and walked all over me.
>
> Growing up, my parents were on food stamps for a while. I always
> qualified for free lunch. I went on no school field-trips that cost
> more than $10 my entire education. I could not use the scholarship I
> got to a prestigious private school in my area because my mom couldn't
> afford to drive the ten miles each way. One month in my childhood, all
> my mom could afford to buy was a starting-to-rot 50lb bag of potatoes,
> and so that's what we ate for a month, with odds and ends. Before I
> turned 18, we could only afford to take me to the dentist once. I
> received all my immunizations through government subsidized programs.
>
> My parents pulled all of our furniture out of other people's trash. My
> parents were too poor to buy me clothes and shoes, so my grandmother
> thrifted them. My parents nor myself ever owned a new bed, but used
> the ones passed down to us by other family members. Cell phones and
> similar things were received in the same way. As a kid, we had a
> computer because my mom was good with them, and would salvage
> computers that other people put away. My parents never bought a
> moniter, television, any tables or chairs. My mother never bought
> dishes while I was living at home, other than tea kettles. We used the
> plates she got as a wedding present until I used my birthday money one
> year to buy her some new cups and glasses when I was in 8th grade.
>


You had an RV! You were lucky! We had to live in a hole in the road
and eat road-kill.

You had furniture!  Riches! We had rocks to sit on and slept in a cardboard box.

We could only dream of a toilet. Way out of our reach........  :)

Do you know Monty Python?
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xe1a1wHxTyo>
Four Yorkshiremen sketch - 3 minutes


BillK


From sen.otaku at gmail.com  Sun May 21 11:29:29 2017
From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard)
Date: Sun, 21 May 2017 06:29:29 -0500
Subject: [ExI] letter
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armhQx54PteNcAYQ2K4uooWXTbRPM1urRbEwixKyGrC8M=A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEboTcOTZXhE8Y3dNeaJPPLX-Sk=JqvNkC1q5OvFGx4bjQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv2=A6zFfYCNaH9U_FeTAjQHnYJWOCY6r50A9YDdYJhKag@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEbm2TzUF7MCkQnOk6MXUDdwR_BcEjToV4Rdb4nAKjWH8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABf9QbCQM_b-sYTv6EEv=fkiNPUTmS3AFZ-urpYL_MZ9Z7vEGA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armivfrJ9OheZS-HUQLKzwAjA06aak3VhGtjqvK2hBPUN6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABf9QbBsgPbx9zRs_x2P5SFTh2Pn3_woTiCTG4yiytu+iwvcDA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armhQx54PteNcAYQ2K4uooWXTbRPM1urRbEwixKyGrC8M=A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABf9QbAfx_0U0=hNSTBf7nnE7jO0a-Z49y5WJ_qrsuecihq2rg@mail.gmail.com>

Of course I know Monty Python. I was raised poor, not deprived XD I
watched quite a bit of flying circus when I was growing up. I can't
decide if I like Cleese or the animator better. So trippy.

I probably did come across kind of that way, but it's not so bad when
you don't know what you're missing. You're miserable, but you don't
realize that you're insufferably poor.

On the bright side, a little buzzer goes off in my brain the instant
the amount of merchandise in my cart exceeds $70 in value. Fun parlor
trick that'll be one day.

On Sun, May 21, 2017 at 6:15 AM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 21 May 2017 at 11:44, SR Ballard  wrote:
>> My view of Trump comes from the lower middle class. My parents have to
>> decide every year if they want to spend their tax returns on their
>> teeth, or on their cars. My parents couldn't afford a house so we
>> moved into an "RV" and I don't mean one of those fancy-pants
>> old-retiree ones either. I mean that it was meant to be lived in 8
>> weeks a year, for two years, and replaced. We lived in it for 5 years.
>> By the end we had no toilet, no hot water, no air conditioning, and
>> one working electrical outlet. Bugs crawled in through the hatch next
>> to my bed, and walked all over me.
>>
>> Growing up, my parents were on food stamps for a while. I always
>> qualified for free lunch. I went on no school field-trips that cost
>> more than $10 my entire education. I could not use the scholarship I
>> got to a prestigious private school in my area because my mom couldn't
>> afford to drive the ten miles each way. One month in my childhood, all
>> my mom could afford to buy was a starting-to-rot 50lb bag of potatoes,
>> and so that's what we ate for a month, with odds and ends. Before I
>> turned 18, we could only afford to take me to the dentist once. I
>> received all my immunizations through government subsidized programs.
>>
>> My parents pulled all of our furniture out of other people's trash. My
>> parents were too poor to buy me clothes and shoes, so my grandmother
>> thrifted them. My parents nor myself ever owned a new bed, but used
>> the ones passed down to us by other family members. Cell phones and
>> similar things were received in the same way. As a kid, we had a
>> computer because my mom was good with them, and would salvage
>> computers that other people put away. My parents never bought a
>> moniter, television, any tables or chairs. My mother never bought
>> dishes while I was living at home, other than tea kettles. We used the
>> plates she got as a wedding present until I used my birthday money one
>> year to buy her some new cups and glasses when I was in 8th grade.
>>
>
>
> You had an RV! You were lucky! We had to live in a hole in the road
> and eat road-kill.
>
> You had furniture!  Riches! We had rocks to sit on and slept in a cardboard box.
>
> We could only dream of a toilet. Way out of our reach........  :)
>
> Do you know Monty Python?
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xe1a1wHxTyo>
> Four Yorkshiremen sketch - 3 minutes
>
>
> BillK
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From pharos at gmail.com  Sun May 21 11:46:44 2017
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sun, 21 May 2017 12:46:44 +0100
Subject: [ExI] letter
In-Reply-To: <CABf9QbBsgPbx9zRs_x2P5SFTh2Pn3_woTiCTG4yiytu+iwvcDA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEboTcOTZXhE8Y3dNeaJPPLX-Sk=JqvNkC1q5OvFGx4bjQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv2=A6zFfYCNaH9U_FeTAjQHnYJWOCY6r50A9YDdYJhKag@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEbm2TzUF7MCkQnOk6MXUDdwR_BcEjToV4Rdb4nAKjWH8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABf9QbCQM_b-sYTv6EEv=fkiNPUTmS3AFZ-urpYL_MZ9Z7vEGA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armivfrJ9OheZS-HUQLKzwAjA06aak3VhGtjqvK2hBPUN6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABf9QbBsgPbx9zRs_x2P5SFTh2Pn3_woTiCTG4yiytu+iwvcDA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armjM3QunNSf0WrtMyRe1yh1kDFZiWHa5qScoFEtPJyunRg@mail.gmail.com>

On 21 May 2017 at 11:44, SR Ballard  wrote:
> I understand the frustrations that people feel, but I don't understand
> why they felt Trump would fix that, honestly. I suppose they were
> mislead by number and range of business ventures, or they felt that he
> was confident, rather than realizing that he's an arrogant person.

I doubt that people really thought Trump would fix their problems.
But they have had 8 years of Obama's 'Hope and Change' where their
lives got steadily worse.
The only other choice was Hilary, in Wall Street's pocket promising
more of the same decline.
Trump was a desperate vote to change direction and stop the pain.

BillK


From sen.otaku at gmail.com  Sun May 21 11:54:47 2017
From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard)
Date: Sun, 21 May 2017 06:54:47 -0500
Subject: [ExI] letter
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armjM3QunNSf0WrtMyRe1yh1kDFZiWHa5qScoFEtPJyunRg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEboTcOTZXhE8Y3dNeaJPPLX-Sk=JqvNkC1q5OvFGx4bjQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv2=A6zFfYCNaH9U_FeTAjQHnYJWOCY6r50A9YDdYJhKag@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEbm2TzUF7MCkQnOk6MXUDdwR_BcEjToV4Rdb4nAKjWH8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABf9QbCQM_b-sYTv6EEv=fkiNPUTmS3AFZ-urpYL_MZ9Z7vEGA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armivfrJ9OheZS-HUQLKzwAjA06aak3VhGtjqvK2hBPUN6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABf9QbBsgPbx9zRs_x2P5SFTh2Pn3_woTiCTG4yiytu+iwvcDA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armjM3QunNSf0WrtMyRe1yh1kDFZiWHa5qScoFEtPJyunRg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABf9QbC8-HiKmn7q1sMih2g4SK6CiAbpsaXVr3FirEua-D23Qw@mail.gmail.com>

Perhaps we'll get some better picks next time around.

And don't think I was suggesting for a moment that Hillary was a good
choice. It was the most "lesser of two evils" campaign since I started
following politics back in 2000. When I was like... 7.

On Sun, May 21, 2017 at 6:46 AM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 21 May 2017 at 11:44, SR Ballard  wrote:
>> I understand the frustrations that people feel, but I don't understand
>> why they felt Trump would fix that, honestly. I suppose they were
>> mislead by number and range of business ventures, or they felt that he
>> was confident, rather than realizing that he's an arrogant person.
>
> I doubt that people really thought Trump would fix their problems.
> But they have had 8 years of Obama's 'Hope and Change' where their
> lives got steadily worse.
> The only other choice was Hilary, in Wall Street's pocket promising
> more of the same decline.
> Trump was a desperate vote to change direction and stop the pain.
>
> BillK
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From avant at sollegro.com  Sun May 21 14:51:25 2017
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Sun, 21 May 2017 07:51:25 -0700
Subject: [ExI] tabby's star dimming again
Message-ID: <808990b22ea1350584c2b6ce787d0b18.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>

Sorry if this is a double post but . . .

Spike wrote:

> That's way too much to be a planet. It might be comets, or maybe an
> alien-made Dyson swarm. The problem is that
> <http://www.popsci.com/could-black-hole-be-blocking-light-from-that-alien
> -me
> gastructure-star> none of the hypotheses that scientists have come up with
>  (including the one about aliens) really fits with the data. That leads
> them to think that some as-yet-undiscovered phenomena is happening around
> this star.

The only evidence ruling out aliens is the supposed lack of a heat
signature and radio waves. But seriously, you and Keith have both made the
point that vectoring waste heat would be the most efficient form of
entropy exaust. What if they don't have their exhaust pointed along the
galactic plane. That seems to make sense from an interplanetary security
stand point.

Furthermore, like you mentioned, perhaps they have some ingenious
technology that enables them to harness heat energy too. If their
thermodynamic efficiency approached 1.0 then, we might have to look for
radiation with frequencies downshifted to near CMB levels.

A good test for this possibility would be to overlay the position of KIC
8462852 with WMAP data. If they are dead smack in the middle of a hotspot,
then that cranks my Bayes-o-Meter up a few probability points on the alien
hypothesis.


> Go there, go now, explain please!

More important than going there is hedging against them coming here. They
might already be on the way. I sure hope Trump or whoever else thinks they
are in charge of this rock at least has a plan for dealing with the
possibility.  I can't help but think of the Aztecs that saw Cortez's ships
from miles off and refused to believe in them until they were "taken by
surprise".

Stuart LaForge




From spike66 at att.net  Sun May 21 14:47:12 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 21 May 2017 07:47:12 -0700
Subject: [ExI] letter
In-Reply-To: <CABf9QbAfx_0U0=hNSTBf7nnE7jO0a-Z49y5WJ_qrsuecihq2rg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEboTcOTZXhE8Y3dNeaJPPLX-Sk=JqvNkC1q5OvFGx4bjQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv2=A6zFfYCNaH9U_FeTAjQHnYJWOCY6r50A9YDdYJhKag@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEbm2TzUF7MCkQnOk6MXUDdwR_BcEjToV4Rdb4nAKjWH8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABf9QbCQM_b-sYTv6EEv=fkiNPUTmS3AFZ-urpYL_MZ9Z7vEGA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armivfrJ9OheZS-HUQLKzwAjA06aak3VhGtjqvK2hBPUN6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABf9QbBsgPbx9zRs_x2P5SFTh2Pn3_woTiCTG4yiytu+iwvcDA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armhQx54PteNcAYQ2K4uooWXTbRPM1urRbEwixKyGrC8M=A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABf9QbAfx_0U0=hNSTBf7nnE7jO0a-Z49y5WJ_qrsuecihq2rg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <005201d2d241$224a5650$66df02f0$@att.net>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf
Of SR Ballard

> On 21 May 2017 at 11:44, SR Ballard  wrote:
>> My view of Trump comes from the lower middle class. My parents have 
>> to decide every year if they want to spend their tax returns on their 
>> teeth, or on their cars ...


This thread has me pondering my own misspent childhood and the recent 48th
anniversary of Apollo 10, since that was the first one I remember clearly.
The only space stuff I remember before that was the first Saturn V launch
and the pad fire in 1967.

Whenever there was a launch in those days, which was about every couple
months, The New York Yankees would show up.  Not the ball team, I mean the
literal yankees from New York, mostly retired people in their Winnebagos.
Oh that was a trip.  Winnebagos were the new hot rage back then, so the rigs
were new and shiney, the occupants wealthy and generous.  The special
editions were 15 cents but only cost us 11.5 a copy.  Half the time a yankee
would pay a quarter and give the dime as a tip, which was a profit margin
more than double the investment.  All that time, I never had to eat unsold
papers... nor did I ever keep one for myself (oy vey what I would pay for a
copy of one of those today.)

In our town people had jobs but not high-paying ones, so we didn't have
Winnebagos.  But down along the Indian River they just set up a temporary RV
park any time there was a launch.  There were two shopping malls with big
parking lots.  RVers would set up camp there too.  The shopping mall people
didn't mind: they RVers had major bucks and the willingness to leave some of
them with the local merchants.  The constables didn't mind, so long as they
were in an RV, even if parked illegally all along US 1 during launch events.
If someone tried to camp in a tent down there, the constables would urge
them to move along.  Everything is legal if you have plenty of money,
otherwise not.

If anyone had a little money to invest and some creativity, they could make
a fortune.  For instance, a Winnebago has a fresh water tank and two waste
water tanks.  Our town had no legal places to dump that I know of, so were I
there today, I would rig up a wastewater tank on a 2 ton flatbed and a fresh
water tank, go offer to fill and dump for about ten bucks, which was a pile
of money then, but RVers are used to that.  A prole could sell batteries,
propane tanks, or just learn to fix the 8 most basic things that break on
nearly every RV: be a roving RV repair-guy.

We kids could sell stuff to tourists.  I sold newspapers, but any food or
snack item, any individual wrapped anything would be hawked down there by
children: granola bars, moon pies, cold sodas, candy and so forth.  It was a
festive occasion once the Apollo program got back on its feet.  To sell any
food item not wrapped such as hot dogs and such required a vendor permit,
but the authorities mostly looked the other way if they were selling to the
New York Yankees.  Perhaps they tried to discourage the teenage girls from
selling their wares to grandpa while the grannies went to lunch together,
but other than that, it was a multi-day bacchanalian festival down there.

They brought money into our community.  Money is always welcome everywhere.

In retrospect it just seems like such fun chaos.  We kids made money, the
tourists had fun, it was a blast.

spike



From pharos at gmail.com  Sun May 21 15:23:28 2017
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sun, 21 May 2017 16:23:28 +0100
Subject: [ExI] tabby's star dimming again
In-Reply-To: <808990b22ea1350584c2b6ce787d0b18.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
References: <808990b22ea1350584c2b6ce787d0b18.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armiLQQCo07avZ5A6CLbWFjTyZEgnHTR=4ZAEA5Q7dFcuWw@mail.gmail.com>

On 21 May 2017 at 15:51, Stuart LaForge  wrote:
> The only evidence ruling out aliens is the supposed lack of a heat
> signature and radio waves. But seriously, you and Keith have both made the
> point that vectoring waste heat would be the most efficient form of
> entropy exaust. What if they don't have their exhaust pointed along the
> galactic plane. That seems to make sense from an interplanetary security
> stand point.
>
> Furthermore, like you mentioned, perhaps they have some ingenious
> technology that enables them to harness heat energy too. If their
> thermodynamic efficiency approached 1.0 then, we might have to look for
> radiation with frequencies downshifted to near CMB levels.
>

<http://www.popsci.com/alien-megastructure-star-dimming-again>
Quotes:
If it's dust that's blocking the light, the spectra should show big
dips in the blue and ultraviolet wavelengths. If it's other stuff
orbiting the star, like a family of huge comets, then the observations
should show extra heat being radiated off of this stuff. So far, that
excess infrared has remained elusive, but Jason Wright, an astronomer
from Penn State, said that the observations that will start tonight
could provide the first evidence of that.

If it's an alien megastructure, or some kind of internal process, all
of the wavelengths should get dimmer equally. A bizarre signature,
such as Tritium or artificial elements would be a pretty strong hint
for aliens, although it would take an extraordinary amount of evidence
to prove such an extraordinary claim.


> More important than going there is hedging against them coming here. They
> might already be on the way. I sure hope Trump or whoever else thinks they
> are in charge of this rock at least has a plan for dealing with the
> possibility.  I can't help but think of the Aztecs that saw Cortez's ships
> from miles off and refused to believe in them until they were "taken by
> surprise".
>

Tabby's star is 1,480 light-years away. I think we can safely not
worry about visitors.
(Unless we see the ships on the horizon, of course).  :)

BillK


From avant at sollegro.com  Sun May 21 14:19:52 2017
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Sun, 21 May 2017 07:19:52 -0700
Subject: [ExI] tabby's star dimming again (spike)
Message-ID: <217bf11e790e03cd14e45c51639ca287.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>

Spike wrote:

> That's way too much to be a planet. It might be comets, or maybe an
> alien-made Dyson swarm. The problem is that
> <http://www.popsci.com/could-black-hole-be-blocking-light-from-that-alien
> -me
> gastructure-star> none of the hypotheses that scientists have come up with
>  (including the one about aliens) really fits with the data. That leads
> them to think that some as-yet-undiscovered phenomena is happening around
> this star.

The only evidence ruling out aliens is the supposed lack of a heat
signature and radio waves. But seriously, you and Keith have both made the
point that vectoring waste heat would be the most efficient form of
entropy exaust. What if they don't have their exhaust pointed along the
galactic plane. That seems to make sense from an interplanetary security
stand point.

Furthermore, like you mentioned, perhaps they have some ingenious
technology that enables them to harness heat energy too. If their
thermodynamic efficiency approached 1.0 then, we might have to look for
radiation with frequencies downshifted to near CMB levels.

A good test for this possibility would be to overlay the position of KIC
8462852 with WMAP data. If they are dead smack in the middle of a hotspot,
then that cranks my Bayes-o-Meter up a few probability points on the alien
hypothesis.


> Go there, go now, explain please!

More important than going there is hedging against them coming here. They
might already be on the way. I sure hope Trump or whoever else thinks they
are in charge of this rock at least has a plan for dealing with the
possibility.  I can't help but think of the Aztecs that saw Cortez's ships
from miles off and refused to believe in them until they were "taken by
surprise".

Stuart LaForge




From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sun May 21 15:36:51 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sun, 21 May 2017 10:36:51 -0500
Subject: [ExI] letter
In-Reply-To: <CABf9QbC8-HiKmn7q1sMih2g4SK6CiAbpsaXVr3FirEua-D23Qw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEboTcOTZXhE8Y3dNeaJPPLX-Sk=JqvNkC1q5OvFGx4bjQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv2=A6zFfYCNaH9U_FeTAjQHnYJWOCY6r50A9YDdYJhKag@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEbm2TzUF7MCkQnOk6MXUDdwR_BcEjToV4Rdb4nAKjWH8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABf9QbCQM_b-sYTv6EEv=fkiNPUTmS3AFZ-urpYL_MZ9Z7vEGA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armivfrJ9OheZS-HUQLKzwAjA06aak3VhGtjqvK2hBPUN6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABf9QbBsgPbx9zRs_x2P5SFTh2Pn3_woTiCTG4yiytu+iwvcDA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armjM3QunNSf0WrtMyRe1yh1kDFZiWHa5qScoFEtPJyunRg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABf9QbC8-HiKmn7q1sMih2g4SK6CiAbpsaXVr3FirEua-D23Qw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbndfVx=Wv5OQ-FPuyam0PbX-7BuVMbEKJwhTqifmh-4A@mail.gmail.com>

sr ballard wrote:

Perhaps we'll get some better picks next time around.

And don't think I was suggesting for a moment that Hillary was a good
choice. It was the most "lesser of two evils" campaign since I started
following politics back in 2000. When I was like... 7.

They voted against Hillary because of who she was.  They voted for Trump
because of who he wasn't.  Then we found out he also wasn't a person who
knew anything about being President.  He can be himself - he's got that act
down pat.  We are used to lies coming from politicians, but he's going to
set all-time records.

I agree that Bush Jr. wasn't a bad person.  But what he knew, he knew from
his advisors, like the evil VP.  Like Trump he was out of his league.

bill w

On Sun, May 21, 2017 at 6:54 AM, SR Ballard <sen.otaku at gmail.com> wrote:

> Perhaps we'll get some better picks next time around.
>
> And don't think I was suggesting for a moment that Hillary was a good
> choice. It was the most "lesser of two evils" campaign since I started
> following politics back in 2000. When I was like... 7.
>
> On Sun, May 21, 2017 at 6:46 AM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:
> > On 21 May 2017 at 11:44, SR Ballard  wrote:
> >> I understand the frustrations that people feel, but I don't understand
> >> why they felt Trump would fix that, honestly. I suppose they were
> >> mislead by number and range of business ventures, or they felt that he
> >> was confident, rather than realizing that he's an arrogant person.
> >
> > I doubt that people really thought Trump would fix their problems.
> > But they have had 8 years of Obama's 'Hope and Change' where their
> > lives got steadily worse.
> > The only other choice was Hilary, in Wall Street's pocket promising
> > more of the same decline.
> > Trump was a desperate vote to change direction and stop the pain.
> >
> > BillK
> > _______________________________________________
> > extropy-chat mailing list
> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170521/08ff3474/attachment.html>

From avant at sollegro.com  Sun May 21 15:48:40 2017
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Sun, 21 May 2017 08:48:40 -0700
Subject: [ExI] (no subject)
Message-ID: <3b382fae4fdce2e76ec065d4f45b2719.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>

BillK wrote:

>Tabby's star is 1,480 light-years away. I think we can safely not
>worry about visitors.

That simply means that 1480 years ago a not-impossible ET might have been
what like 5% finished with a Dyson swarm?

>(Unless we see the ships on the horizon, of course).  :)

How are we going to see a Von-Neumann probe on the horizon? They could
have built those at type 1 on the K-scale. I certainly wasn't refering to
wetware ET.

Stuart LaForge




From avant at sollegro.com  Sun May 21 15:57:24 2017
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Sun, 21 May 2017 08:57:24 -0700
Subject: [ExI] tabby's star dimming again
Message-ID: <2953263740ef6a5afdd29283410a5fd6.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>

Crap! Two double posts in one day. Forgot the subject line this time.
Sorry new email interface. :)

BillK wrote:

>Tabby's star is 1,480 light-years away. I think we can safely not
>worry about visitors.

That simply means that 1480 years ago a not-impossible ET might have been
what like 5% finished with a Dyson swarm?

>(Unless we see the ships on the horizon, of course).  :)

How are we going to see a Von-Neumann probe on the horizon? They could
have built those at type 1 on the K-scale. I certainly wasn't refering to
wetware ET.

Stuart LaForge



From spike66 at att.net  Sun May 21 15:47:56 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 21 May 2017 08:47:56 -0700
Subject: [ExI] tabby's star dimming again
In-Reply-To: <808990b22ea1350584c2b6ce787d0b18.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
References: <808990b22ea1350584c2b6ce787d0b18.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
Message-ID: <006801d2d249$9e333f90$da99beb0$@att.net>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf
Of Stuart LaForge
Sent: Sunday, May 21, 2017 7:51 AM
To: Exi Chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: Re: [ExI] tabby's star dimming again

Sorry if this is a double post but . . .

Spike wrote:

>>... That's way too much to be a planet. It might be comets, or maybe an 
> alien-made Dyson swarm...
> leads them to think that some as-yet-undiscovered phenomena is 
> happening around this star.

>...The only evidence ruling out aliens is the supposed lack of a heat
signature and radio waves...

Indeed not, sir.  The lack of a IR signature rules out most, or perhaps all,
configurations of a natural accretion disk.  The lack of radio waves:
perhaps only a mild counter-indicator of ET.  Think of how much radio
clutter there was in the 1970s, when everybody had to have CB radios in
their trucks.  Every channel was crammed full of inane jabber and the power
those old devices radiated could drain a car battery if one used it enough.
Compare to today, how we have even more communications, but the power is so
low a tiny lithium battery will last for hours.  Perhaps ET uses a
directional communication channel, something like radio-frequency laser or
something.

>...But seriously, you and Keith have both made the point that vectoring
waste heat would be the most efficient form of entropy exaust. What if they
don't have their exhaust pointed along the galactic plane. That seems to
make sense from an interplanetary security stand point...

It would unless they want to avoid advertising their presence, ja.  It could
go either way: they could use vectored entropy exhaust as a signal beacon,
the Horton Hears a Who argument.

>...Furthermore, like you mentioned, perhaps they have some ingenious
technology that enables them to harness heat energy too. If their
thermodynamic efficiency approached 1.0 then, we might have to look for
radiation with frequencies downshifted to near CMB levels...

Stuart I am going to stand down on that comment for now until I can do some
calcs.

>...A good test for this possibility would be to overlay the position of KIC
8462852 with WMAP data. If they are dead smack in the middle of a hotspot,
then that cranks my Bayes-o-Meter up a few probability points on the alien
hypothesis.

Now you're thinking!  Good show, me lad.

>> Go there, go now, explain please!

>...More important than going there is hedging against them coming here.
They might already be on the way...

Why here?  What were we doing 1300 years ago that would attract their
attention?

>... I sure hope Trump or whoever else thinks they are in charge of this
rock at least has a plan for dealing with the possibility...

Oy, at least a couple things there: Trump is not in charge of this rock.
Having all those nukes has put the US in a defacto position as the world's
police.  That isn't a good place to be.  Next, we wouldn't need to deal with
it for a few thousand years hence at the soonest.


>...  I can't help but think of the Aztecs that saw Cortez's ships from
miles off and refused to believe in them until they were "taken by
surprise".  Stuart LaForge
_______________________________________________

The Aztecs could have played that smarter.  If any alien civilization has
the tech to get allll the way across 1300 years of space, we don't want to
fight em, we want to love em.  We want to get their tech, or if we do fight
them, we recognize there is no supply line: that one whatever they come in
is on its own devices.  If they run into trouble it takes 1300 years just to
phone home.

Had the Aztecs thought it over, they could have easily defeated the
Spaniards in spite of their iron breastplates.  But they needed to think it
over carefully and recognized that those six hundred guys were all there
were.   Xicotencatl needed to have his boys gaze at that ship and figure out
why it stayed on the surface and why it went where it was pointed, and why
it was pointed that way.  The Aztecs had good minds.  They could have
figured it out how to defeat the Spaniards, without a front-on battle.  The
Spaniards were at the point of mutiny already on a mutinous mission.  The
strategy was divide and conquer.

If any alien spaceship comes to town, we don't want a full frontal assault.
First we want to figure out how they got here.

But I digress.  Previous measurements of Tabby's star suggest an asymmetry
in the leading edge of the dimming vs training edge.  Some sources are
saying now that this week's dip is as high as 3% (oooooh cool) and if so, we
will learn much this time.  We have jillions of telescopes on it right now
with measurement devices so this will be the best dataset ever.  My guess is
there is a whole buttoad of comets doing this, with bigger comas than we
normally see, perhaps from a passing body breaking up an icy planet and
sending them in a highly elliptic orbit.  I can't easily explain why there
isn't more IR in that scenario, but perhaps if the icy body started way out
there away from the star and the vaporization carried away most of the heat,
some variation of that scenario feels most likely to me.

We might find out soon.  

Where's John Clark?  I saw him here yesterday posting about trivialities.
Nobody cares about that stuff.  John!  To hell with sex and politics!  To
the real world, me lad!  We need your physics expertise here man!

spike







From johnkclark at gmail.com  Sun May 21 16:25:36 2017
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sun, 21 May 2017 12:25:36 -0400
Subject: [ExI] tabby's star dimming again
In-Reply-To: <808990b22ea1350584c2b6ce787d0b18.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
References: <808990b22ea1350584c2b6ce787d0b18.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv3xP0_oBabh6GRajUpBSViZYsqkhj1RZpWrS=OCpoZUWg@mail.gmail.com>

> .
>


On Sun, May 21, 2017 at 11:48 AM, Stuart LaForge <avant at sollegro.com> wrote:

>
>
>> ?> ?
>> Tabby's star is 1,480 light-years away. I think we can safely not
>> ? ?
>> worry about visitors.
>
>
> ?> ?
> That simply means that 1480 years ago a not-impossible ET might have been
> what like 5% finished with a Dyson swarm?
>

Cosmically speaking 1
?
480 light
?y?
ears is right next door, and
T?
abby's star
? was discovered by the? Kepler space telescope and Kepler was only looking
at 1/400 of the sky, so if Tabby is 5% complete then fully complete Dyson
Spheres, and even more advanced structures, should be a dime a dozen. So
where the hell are they? We should have found them 50 years ago, if not
5000 years ago.

 John K Clark
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170521/d306dc91/attachment.html>

From pharos at gmail.com  Sun May 21 16:28:07 2017
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sun, 21 May 2017 17:28:07 +0100
Subject: [ExI] tabby's star dimming again
In-Reply-To: <2953263740ef6a5afdd29283410a5fd6.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
References: <2953263740ef6a5afdd29283410a5fd6.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armjhz48YbTv3MB8t-yApzFok6Ky-fm1tHS6mz9mW-7eKKg@mail.gmail.com>

On 21 May 2017 at 16:57, Stuart LaForge  wrote:
> That simply means that 1480 years ago a not-impossible ET might have been
> what like 5% finished with a Dyson swarm?
>
> How are we going to see a Von-Neumann probe on the horizon? They could
> have built those at type 1 on the K-scale. I certainly wasn't referring to
> wetware ET.
>

Space is BIG. There would be no reason for them to decide to send a
probe specifically to us. If they decided to send probes to every star
within 1500 light years, that would be an impossibly huge energy
expenditure.
Perhaps we might expect to see changes in star systems nearer to
tabby's star. A civilisation advanced enough to build a Dyson swarm
and send out probes might be changing other star systems as well.
And travel at light speed may not be possible anyway. (Dust, cosmic rays, etc.).
Say, maybe, 10% of light speed might be possible. But such high speed
travel will probably make quite a spectacle of itself, that we might
notice. Propulsion systems, radiation screens, heat effects from
traveling through the interstellar medium, etc.

If it is possible, it's not a problem for Trump anyway.  Maybe for the
robot Trump, 10,000 years from now........  :)

BillK


From johnkclark at gmail.com  Sun May 21 17:16:46 2017
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sun, 21 May 2017 13:16:46 -0400
Subject: [ExI] tabby's star dimming again
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armjhz48YbTv3MB8t-yApzFok6Ky-fm1tHS6mz9mW-7eKKg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2953263740ef6a5afdd29283410a5fd6.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
 <CAL_armjhz48YbTv3MB8t-yApzFok6Ky-fm1tHS6mz9mW-7eKKg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv3Fikop4kTOX5-B+T-N=Wg_UgHoOX=F-sq0GF_oBbzDRQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, May 21, 2017 at 12:28 PM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:

?> ?
> Space is BIG.


?Well, there does seem to be a awful lot of it.?


?> ?
> There would be no reason for them to decide to send a
> ? ?
> probe specifically to us. If they decided to send probes to every star
> ? ?
> within 1500 light years, that would be an impossibly huge energy
> ? ?
> expenditure.
>

?
Not so. A Von Neumann probe would only weigh a few ounces, perhaps less,
and they'd only have to send one probe to one star. Even if that probe
moved no faster than our Voyager spacecraft (a ridiculously conservative
estimate I think) a probe could be in every star system in the Galaxy in
just a blink of an eye, about 50 million years, and the Milky
? ?
Way
? ?
would be transformed into a structure obviously built by intelligence. It
wouldn't be anything subtle
?s?
o why don't we see that?

John K Clark
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170521/71e4deb9/attachment.html>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sun May 21 18:29:55 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sun, 21 May 2017 13:29:55 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Translation AI (was dying?)
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNQWqJTOpj=W-4r2RM+m6yguSTSGXvpDfzEVrQ=RkRTw=g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALAdGNT4AY5MrfqGK26U5XfWNikNcMXDOpqHz9xU_qERw7ovQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZAtCd-Gx_5y1v35GOQX_FiA5F2qQSHO87vhi8W+PoJxg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNReqi7mwxCJBEkNPZR8fUE=avDzH3+A4Sju2k7L_+0d2w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZBzZkUD+LcqGYyJb8gp_0QtmY4sM6zXqs5ebdXN8gx3g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQWqJTOpj=W-4r2RM+m6yguSTSGXvpDfzEVrQ=RkRTw=g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbGLNeHKjyqgEsxgPSLDmYmMDfBKoG3ug+bTEYHF2AYJA@mail.gmail.com>

bill w wrote     > I fully agree.  But a lot of people seem to be so
impatient to hook
> themselves up to PCs and whatnot to improve their abilities, then get
> implants, etc.  What for?

?
adrian wrote
?  ?
?
To improve their abilities, presumably.

N
?ow if by improve you mean just more storage, I think that's wrong.  That's
why we have the internet and ways to reach any kind of answer we want in a
very short time.  Probably there will a gadget such that we can ask it for
an answer and get it back in a few seconds - something wearable like an
earbud.

What would improve would be an AI implant that catches our cognitive biases
and other errors, does Bayesian calculations?, and so on.  We have plenty
of storage.  We don't have better ways of thinking.  Right now all we can
do is to try to change the brain we have, like your learning to learn
course.

bill w

On Sat, May 20, 2017 at 12:00 PM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:

>  On Fri, May 19, 2017 at 8:12 AM, William Flynn Wallace
> <foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > (out of all the hundreds of scifi books I've read I don't know how I
> missed
> > radiotelepathy)
>
> It's a rare concept, and I am not certain "radiotelepathy" is in fact
> the dominant term for it.  But I've seen it in multiple places.
>
> > I fully agree.  But a lot of people seem to be so impatient to hook
> > themselves up to PCs and whatnot to improve their abilities, then get
> > implants, etc.  What for?
>
> To improve their abilities, presumably.
>
> > Intro courses are for learning basic terminology, facts, and theories.
> Some
> > rote memory testing is inevitable, but I say leave that behind as fast as
> > possible and get to the 'learning to learn' that you mentioned.
>
> FWIW, https://www.coursera.org/learn/learning-how-to-learn is one form
> of what I'm talking about.  Anyone generally capable of taking an
> online course (for instance, literate in the traditional and computer
> senses) can skip to this right away.  (I double-checked the link, and
> there may be a paywall now, but when I took this course it was free.
> There might still be an option to take the course w/out the
> Certificate they're mentioning.)
>
> I would not mind hearing others' opinion of the course (as revised:
> it's been a while since I took it), if anyone wants to try.
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170521/c2efbb49/attachment.html>

From protokol2020 at gmail.com  Sun May 21 19:44:38 2017
From: protokol2020 at gmail.com (Tomaz Kristan)
Date: Sun, 21 May 2017 21:44:38 +0200
Subject: [ExI] tabby's star dimming again
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv3Fikop4kTOX5-B+T-N=Wg_UgHoOX=F-sq0GF_oBbzDRQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2953263740ef6a5afdd29283410a5fd6.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
 <CAL_armjhz48YbTv3MB8t-yApzFok6Ky-fm1tHS6mz9mW-7eKKg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv3Fikop4kTOX5-B+T-N=Wg_UgHoOX=F-sq0GF_oBbzDRQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALMrAFRGwRKdS+PtAfCptA6w_0o_cS-MM7JYErJVSY0FWvvtnQ@mail.gmail.com>

It's conquer or to be conquered, on a cosmic scale. This is no joke, and no
funny matter.

The fairy tales  told by Carl Sagan and many others are total crap, which
has nothing to do with reality.

Our best hope is, that we are the first and early enough. As they say -
take the red pill!





On Sun, May 21, 2017 at 7:16 PM, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sun, May 21, 2017 at 12:28 PM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> ?> ?
>> Space is BIG.
>
>
> ?Well, there does seem to be a awful lot of it.?
>
>
> ?> ?
>> There would be no reason for them to decide to send a
>> ? ?
>> probe specifically to us. If they decided to send probes to every star
>> ? ?
>> within 1500 light years, that would be an impossibly huge energy
>> ? ?
>> expenditure.
>>
>
> ?
> Not so. A Von Neumann probe would only weigh a few ounces, perhaps less,
> and they'd only have to send one probe to one star. Even if that probe
> moved no faster than our Voyager spacecraft (a ridiculously conservative
> estimate I think) a probe could be in every star system in the Galaxy in
> just a blink of an eye, about 50 million years, and the Milky
> ? ?
> Way
> ? ?
> would be transformed into a structure obviously built by intelligence. It
> wouldn't be anything subtle
> ?s?
> o why don't we see that?
>
> John K Clark
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>


-- 
https://protokol2020.wordpress.com/
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170521/30517605/attachment.html>

From johnkclark at gmail.com  Sun May 21 21:00:23 2017
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sun, 21 May 2017 17:00:23 -0400
Subject: [ExI] tabby's star dimming again
In-Reply-To: <808990b22ea1350584c2b6ce787d0b18.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
References: <808990b22ea1350584c2b6ce787d0b18.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv3t7bNNK8u-iPUwVeG0KRh+70qFiV1OAQUSY3_Fihx4sQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, May 21, 2017 at 10:51 AM, Stuart LaForge <avant at sollegro.com> wrote:


> ?> ?
> What if they don't have their exhaust pointed along the
> ?
> galactic plane. That seems to make sense from an interplanetary security
> ?
> stand point.
>

If Tabby ET is trying to hide he's not doing a very good job because we're
talking about him, but why would he
?
even
?
try to hide? What could Tabby have that another alien civilization wants to
steal that they couldn't get on their own far far easier?

>
> ?> ?
> Furthermore, like you mentioned, perhaps they have some ingenious
> ? ?
>
> technology that enables them to harness heat energy too. If their
> thermodynamic efficiency approached 1.0 then
> ?
>

Then ET has managed to break the second law of thermodynamics. If you asked
me which law of physics that we currently believe to true I am most
confident Mr. Jupiter Brain would still say is true in the year million I'd
say the second law of thermodynamics
?
.It's not obviously absurd that the law of conservation of mass or energy
or momentum or electrical charge could turn out to be untrue someday, but
if the second law is wrong then it would mean there are more ways to be
organized than disorganized,
?
it would mean there are more ways
?
small
?
amount of information
?
can describe something than ways a
?large?
 amount of information can,
?
and that, unlike a violation of the conservation laws,
?
isn't just unphysical it's
?
logically paradoxical.

And besides, ?if you're going to invoke fundamental new physics to explain
a puzzling phenomena what's the point of ET? Get rid of the useless middle
man!

 John K Clark



?
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170521/e42ce8b2/attachment.html>

From atymes at gmail.com  Sun May 21 21:23:43 2017
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sun, 21 May 2017 14:23:43 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Greener Urban Environment
In-Reply-To: <CABf9QbBmZrbeaa1Qgyv0kQSvQdMncvPqAWodQn5ff2KUk84NLQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABf9QbBmZrbeaa1Qgyv0kQSvQdMncvPqAWodQn5ff2KUk84NLQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNSEw-TDNu3Y7sTGVdaBpTjx23TAxPxg1nZk5x_APcn2Tw@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, May 19, 2017 at 4:43 AM, SR Ballard <sen.otaku at gmail.com> wrote:
> So, with this information, a few things have been said, such as "well,
> then for their own good, humans need to abandon cities". But of
> course, we would want to take this the other way. Why not make cities
> conform to the psychological needs of humans? (or I suppose we could
> find a way to change the psychological drives of humans to better
> adapt to a city environment...)

Indeed.  Humans have flocked to cities since ancient times for good
reason.  Thoughtlessly driving humans out of cities because of a
half-baked analysis of one aspect will undo all of that, and wind up
making humans suffer more.  So, keep the good and fix the bad part.

> A major issue in urban areas is water-runoff, caused by the blocking
> of soil through building construction, but more pointedly through the
> building of paved, multi-lane roads. Suppose here, we were to kill 2
> birds with one stone, and develop a grass-like structure to replace
> concrete and asphalt roads.

The reest of this is a good analysis, if only the thing could be made
- and as cheaply as concrete or asphalt.  (Don't forget, economics is
ever the driver of these things.  Humans may do what's good for them
but they will, almost always, do what's most economically efficient -
and when they don't, it's often because they either can't afford the
short-term investment or simply don't know better.)

> Similarly, light posts could be re-imagined as local varieties of
> trees, the leaves gathering sunlight during the day, and emitting
> light from the underside of each leaf after dark, transmitting excess
> energy produced down through it's trunk, into the lines created by the
> grass.

There are light poles like this.  Almost all you'd need to do would be
to paint them green (or brown for the trunks), maybe dress the trunks
up with fake wood.

> Of course, solar currently has a long way to go, especially
> considering the toll it takes to produce cells and batteries, but this
> is a bit pie-in-the-sky I suppose. Comments? Critiques?

Imagine if you were to build a city for 100,000 from nothing - around
some new mining or other rich, fixed-location resource, for an excuse,
or if you were just handed design responsibilities for one of the new
cities China's popping up all over the place in anticipation of future
population.  (If you haven't heard of those, google "China ghost
cities".)  How would you plan it?

> I really should go to college >.<

Despite what you may hear from others, college is usually a worthwhile
investment of time and money - so long as you major in something you
will likely be using in your career.  (So: "fill-in-the-field
engineering" yes, "fill-in-the-human-type studies" no.)


From spike66 at att.net  Sun May 21 22:33:56 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 21 May 2017 15:33:56 -0700
Subject: [ExI] tabby's star dimming again
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv3xP0_oBabh6GRajUpBSViZYsqkhj1RZpWrS=OCpoZUWg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <808990b22ea1350584c2b6ce787d0b18.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
 <CAJPayv3xP0_oBabh6GRajUpBSViZYsqkhj1RZpWrS=OCpoZUWg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <005601d2d282$563c2790$02b476b0$@att.net>

 

 

From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of John Clark



Cosmically speaking 1480 light y?ears is right next door? So where the hell are they? We should have found them 50 years ago, if not 5000 years ago.

 

 John K Clark

 

 

John that is a question that has been on my mind for years, perhaps the most persistent burning question in my mind.

 

This is the most recent light-curve I can find.  We now have jillions of scopes trained on it, so these measurements will likely be close together on the time axis.  That two percent drop in two days is a mind-blower.  Now it is doing what looks to me a lot like a second dip and the readings are all over the map:

 

 

 



 

 

 

Such a crazy star.

 

spike

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170521/fd231602/attachment.html>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: image003.jpg
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 26286 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170521/fd231602/attachment.jpg>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sun May 21 22:58:19 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sun, 21 May 2017 17:58:19 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Greener Urban Environment
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNSEw-TDNu3Y7sTGVdaBpTjx23TAxPxg1nZk5x_APcn2Tw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABf9QbBmZrbeaa1Qgyv0kQSvQdMncvPqAWodQn5ff2KUk84NLQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNSEw-TDNu3Y7sTGVdaBpTjx23TAxPxg1nZk5x_APcn2Tw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZ=CCBVUwDKeyMarpUt51LWLgKdOvtZ=kix2eFPkhBAGw@mail.gmail.com>

 sb  I really should go to college >.<

?
adrian wrote
?   ?
?
Despite what you may hear from others, college is usually a worthwhile
investment of time and money - so long as you major in something you
will likely be using in your career.  (So: "fill-in-the-field
engineering" yes, "fill-in-the-human-type studies" no.)
-
?-----------------

I could not disagree with Adrian more.  Of course as a college professor I
could be biased.

?You will get experiences you can get nowhere else, or at least for far
less cost.  If college helps with your career - fine. If it doesn't, you'll
still have your art, music, literature, psychology, sociology, anthropology
etc. as well as the free concerts and a lot more.  You will meet people
from all over the world; you will experience more diversity of everything
than you will anywhere else.  Those really will make you a more
well-rounded person.

I read where some medical schools are urging the college age person not to
take all chemistry and biology etc., but to get outside their future area
of expertise?
?
?.

If you don't need or want any of that, go to a technical school, but even
those have some of the above.

bill w?

On Sun, May 21, 2017 at 4:23 PM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Fri, May 19, 2017 at 4:43 AM, SR Ballard <sen.otaku at gmail.com> wrote:
> > So, with this information, a few things have been said, such as "well,
> > then for their own good, humans need to abandon cities". But of
> > course, we would want to take this the other way. Why not make cities
> > conform to the psychological needs of humans? (or I suppose we could
> > find a way to change the psychological drives of humans to better
> > adapt to a city environment...)
>
> Indeed.  Humans have flocked to cities since ancient times for good
> reason.  Thoughtlessly driving humans out of cities because of a
> half-baked analysis of one aspect will undo all of that, and wind up
> making humans suffer more.  So, keep the good and fix the bad part.
>
> > A major issue in urban areas is water-runoff, caused by the blocking
> > of soil through building construction, but more pointedly through the
> > building of paved, multi-lane roads. Suppose here, we were to kill 2
> > birds with one stone, and develop a grass-like structure to replace
> > concrete and asphalt roads.
>
> The reest of this is a good analysis, if only the thing could be made
> - and as cheaply as concrete or asphalt.  (Don't forget, economics is
> ever the driver of these things.  Humans may do what's good for them
> but they will, almost always, do what's most economically efficient -
> and when they don't, it's often because they either can't afford the
> short-term investment or simply don't know better.)
>
> > Similarly, light posts could be re-imagined as local varieties of
> > trees, the leaves gathering sunlight during the day, and emitting
> > light from the underside of each leaf after dark, transmitting excess
> > energy produced down through it's trunk, into the lines created by the
> > grass.
>
> There are light poles like this.  Almost all you'd need to do would be
> to paint them green (or brown for the trunks), maybe dress the trunks
> up with fake wood.
>
> > Of course, solar currently has a long way to go, especially
> > considering the toll it takes to produce cells and batteries, but this
> > is a bit pie-in-the-sky I suppose. Comments? Critiques?
>
> Imagine if you were to build a city for 100,000 from nothing - around
> some new mining or other rich, fixed-location resource, for an excuse,
> or if you were just handed design responsibilities for one of the new
> cities China's popping up all over the place in anticipation of future
> population.  (If you haven't heard of those, google "China ghost
> cities".)  How would you plan it?
>
> > I really should go to college >.<
>
> Despite what you may hear from others, college is usually a worthwhile
> investment of time and money - so long as you major in something you
> will likely be using in your career.  (So: "fill-in-the-field
> engineering" yes, "fill-in-the-human-type studies" no.)
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170521/762dbdd7/attachment.html>

From pharos at gmail.com  Sun May 21 23:12:21 2017
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Mon, 22 May 2017 00:12:21 +0100
Subject: [ExI] tabby's star dimming again
In-Reply-To: <005601d2d282$563c2790$02b476b0$@att.net>
References: <808990b22ea1350584c2b6ce787d0b18.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
 <CAJPayv3xP0_oBabh6GRajUpBSViZYsqkhj1RZpWrS=OCpoZUWg@mail.gmail.com>
 <005601d2d282$563c2790$02b476b0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAL_armjM9XOnnsmdHLfAh6TprxP3sO7Ed5SWcnoo1gVuWAViXQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 21 May 2017 at 23:33, spike  wrote:
> John that is a question that has been on my mind for years, perhaps the most
> persistent burning question in my mind.
>
> This is the most recent light-curve I can find.  We now have jillions of
> scopes trained on it, so these measurements will likely be close together on
> the time axis.  That two percent drop in two days is a mind-blower.  Now it
> is doing what looks to me a lot like a second dip and the readings are all
> over the map:
>
> Such a crazy star.
>

The latest VR soap opera episode just finished and they've all
switched the kettle on to make a cup of tea. It's temporarily draining
the power. (OK, adjust description for whatever they're doing).

I'm serious! :)

Looking around, obviously advanced civs don't rebuild the universe in
an artificial fashion.
Virtual reality is the answer. Virtual worlds are far more interesting
than the boring real world. Everyone can be the master of their own
virtual world. Who needs anything more? That's why the galaxy hasn't
been rebuilt by robots stomping all over it.

BillK


From atymes at gmail.com  Sun May 21 23:17:21 2017
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sun, 21 May 2017 16:17:21 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Greener Urban Environment
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEZ=CCBVUwDKeyMarpUt51LWLgKdOvtZ=kix2eFPkhBAGw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABf9QbBmZrbeaa1Qgyv0kQSvQdMncvPqAWodQn5ff2KUk84NLQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNSEw-TDNu3Y7sTGVdaBpTjx23TAxPxg1nZk5x_APcn2Tw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZ=CCBVUwDKeyMarpUt51LWLgKdOvtZ=kix2eFPkhBAGw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNRTe=6CTJoLpGx-5qA-obPTuktYOK9OqFkPsaRPUWiM3w@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, May 21, 2017 at 3:58 PM, William Flynn Wallace
<foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
>  sb  I really should go to college >.<
>
> adrian wrote
>
> Despite what you may hear from others, college is usually a worthwhile
> investment of time and money - so long as you major in something you
> will likely be using in your career.  (So: "fill-in-the-field
> engineering" yes, "fill-in-the-human-type studies" no.)
> -
> -----------------
>
> I could not disagree with Adrian more.  Of course as a college professor I
> could be biased.

Actually, we mostly agree: college is worthwhile. ;)  (I have to slap
that "usually" disclaimer on because there are always exceptions, for
large enough populations.  But those exceptions probably do not apply
to any member of this list.)

And yeah, do take some courses outside of major.  Those will help.
But the best value for money when attending college is if you major in
something career-related, so you get that *and* become more
well-rounded (which specifically includes being better prepared to
cope with all the various circumstances life will throw your way).

> I read where some medical schools are urging the college age person not to
> take all chemistry and biology etc., but to get outside their future area of
> expertise

I thought most colleges simply did not allow one to graduate with all
science/engineering courses - or with no science/engineering courses.
"A little of this, a little of that, and a lot of your major" seemed
to be the requirement no matter whether you majored in engineering,
arts, humanities, or anything else.


From avant at sollegro.com  Mon May 22 05:09:46 2017
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Sun, 21 May 2017 22:09:46 -0700
Subject: [ExI] tabby's star dimming again
Message-ID: <6a8019634c43e023245e6ffbfa66135b.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>

Spike wrote:

> It would unless they want to avoid advertising their presence, ja.  It
> could go either way: they could use vectored entropy exhaust as a signal
> beacon, the Horton Hears a Who argument.

Well if they had good designers, it could be adjustable, just not pointed
our way.

>
>> ...Furthermore, like you mentioned, perhaps they have some ingenious
>>
> technology that enables them to harness heat energy too. If their
> thermodynamic efficiency approached 1.0 then, we might have to look for
> radiation with frequencies downshifted to near CMB levels...
>
> Stuart I am going to stand down on that comment for now until I can do
> some calcs.

Ok, I am looking forward to hearing about them.

>> ...A good test for this possibility would be to overlay the position of
>> KIC
>>
> 8462852 with WMAP data. If they are dead smack in the middle of a
> hotspot, then that cranks my Bayes-o-Meter up a few probability points on
> the alien hypothesis.
>
> Now you're thinking!  Good show, me lad.

Is this something you could do? Didn't you used work on WMAP? Do you still
have access to the data?


>
> Why here?  What were we doing 1300 years ago that would attract their
> attention?
>

Because we are a yellow star similar to theirs and within their reach.
Nothing personal, they just want our rocky planets, metals, rare earth
elements, and the like as part of a von Neumann probe diaspora. Think
dandelion seeds not an invasion fleet.

> But I digress.  Previous measurements of Tabby's star suggest an
> asymmetry in the leading edge of the dimming vs training edge.

Yes, you can see the asymmetry in these graphs of the data:
http://www.science20.com/indepth_analytics/blog/kic_8462852_models_that_fit_kepler_observations_quite_well-180403

Interestingly, Solorzano shows that the asymmetry of the flux curve fits
really well with the Monod equation, at least in previous brightness
drops. The Monod eauation is from biology and describes the growth of
microorganisms like bacteria or yeast. Do you you think it is a
coincidence?

Stuart LaForge




From avant at sollegro.com  Mon May 22 05:23:30 2017
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Sun, 21 May 2017 22:23:30 -0700
Subject: [ExI] tabby's star dimming again
Message-ID: <f5ece51b3de799afaaf374caadbf1174.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>

John Clark wrote:

> Cosmically speaking 1480 light years is right next door, and Tabby's
star  >was discovered by the? Kepler space telescope and Kepler was
> only looking at 1/400 of the sky, so if Tabby is 5% complete then fully
> complete Dyson Spheres, and even more advanced structures, should be a
> dime a dozen. So where the hell are they? We should have found them 50
> years ago, if not 5000 years ago.

Well somebody had to be first and so maybe we are the second. How many
yellow dwarves are THAT much closer to them than we are?

Stuart LaForge




From sen.otaku at gmail.com  Mon May 22 11:59:57 2017
From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard)
Date: Mon, 22 May 2017 06:59:57 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Greener Urban Environment
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNSEw-TDNu3Y7sTGVdaBpTjx23TAxPxg1nZk5x_APcn2Tw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABf9QbBmZrbeaa1Qgyv0kQSvQdMncvPqAWodQn5ff2KUk84NLQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNSEw-TDNu3Y7sTGVdaBpTjx23TAxPxg1nZk5x_APcn2Tw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABf9QbDuBj9WNQ6AbEcmkzusTMvu20zWBV5rBVFN-C5dsPYy5Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, May 21, 2017 at 4:23 PM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:

> Imagine if you were to build a city for 100,000 from nothing - around
> some new mining or other rich, fixed-location resource, for an excuse,
> or if you were just handed design responsibilities for one of the new
> cities China's popping up all over the place in anticipation of future
> population.  (If you haven't heard of those, google "China ghost
> cities".)  How would you plan it?

I'm going to do some noodling and some research, and I'll get back to
you on this later. I have some initial thoughts, but I'd like to be
able to give a more detailed response. This might take me a few weeks.


> Despite what you may hear from others, college is usually a worthwhile
> investment of time and money - so long as you major in something you
> will likely be using in your career.  (So: "fill-in-the-field
> engineering" yes, "fill-in-the-human-type studies" no.)

For a long time I've been interested in materials science, and the
design of closed live-work situations, such as space stations,
bunkers, battleships and submarines. Of course I have my hobbies, but
there is no need to get a degree in a hobby.


From spike66 at att.net  Mon May 22 13:36:24 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 22 May 2017 06:36:24 -0700
Subject: [ExI] tabby's star dimming again
In-Reply-To: <6a8019634c43e023245e6ffbfa66135b.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
References: <6a8019634c43e023245e6ffbfa66135b.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
Message-ID: <010a01d2d300$687b2f90$39718eb0$@att.net>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf
Of Stuart LaForge


>
>> ...Furthermore, like you mentioned, perhaps they have some ingenious
>> technology that enables them to harness heat energy too. If their 
> thermodynamic efficiency approached 1.0 then, we might have to look 
> for radiation with frequencies downshifted to near CMB levels...
>
>>... Stuart I am going to stand down on that comment for now until I can do

> some calcs...

>...Ok, I am looking forward to hearing about them.

Ok, well their efficiency can go way high but if they are radiating heat way
down the temperature scale the radiators are enormous.  The best I can do is
imagine planar radiators turned sideways from our line of sight and the star
as it transits.  But then if they do that, I can't come up with a plausible
way they could be blocking nearly 3% of the light from the star.  Most
puzzling.

The second law is a cruel son of a bitch, but it is absolutely right.  I
have more confidence in that one than any physical law I know.  Recall in AC
Clarke's Rendezvous with Rama, right at the end there where Rama threw away
Newton's third law.  I was annoyed.  But had Clarke thrown out the second
law of thermodynamics instead, I would have tossed the book in the trash
without reading the last page.  The second law is right.  Too bad for us:
regardless if we work out cryonics somehow and do marvelous tech miracles,
heat death will eventually get us, and local heat death will get us billions
of years before that.

With radiators, you very soon get to increasing investment (of metals) with
diminishing returns (of only a little additional energy and most of what you
save is lousy high entropy energy, thin gruel indeed for doing anything
useful. 

>
>> Now you're thinking!  Good show, me lad.

>...Is this something you could do? Didn't you used work on WMAP? Do you
still have access to the data?

Didn't and don't, but I am pretty sure they made all that data available
somewhere.  Does anyone here know?


>
>> Why here?  What were we doing 1300 years ago that would attract their 
> attention?
>

>...Because we are a yellow star similar to theirs and within their reach.
Nothing personal, they just want our rocky planets, metals, rare earth
elements, and the like as part of a von Neumann probe diaspora. Think
dandelion seeds not an invasion fleet.

Ja, could have already arrived and we are they.  I am having a hard time
imagining they would recently notice us after we have being looping around
out here pretty much in our current configuration for several billion years.
The best I can do is conjecture that they are recent.




>> But I digress.  Previous measurements of Tabby's star suggest an 
> asymmetry in the leading edge of the dimming vs training edge.

>...Yes, you can see the asymmetry in these graphs of the data:

http://www.science20.com/indepth_analytics/blog/kic_8462852_models_that_fit_
kepler_observations_quite_well-180403

They had a SETI talk on that paper, but all is not well with it methinks.
The only way I could make it plausible is if the debris cloud is very recent
and waaaay the hell back away from the star.  I came away thinking we need
another several good transits.  This one counts.  So now we need to wait for
fresh papers taking into account this latest dip.


>...Interestingly, Solorzano shows that the asymmetry of the flux curve fits
really well with the Monod equation, at least in previous brightness drops.
The Monod eauation is from biology and describes the growth of
microorganisms like bacteria or yeast. Do you you think it is a coincidence?
Stuart LaForge

Ja.  If something is blocking the light, that something gets warm and we
could see it.  Unless... it is radiating directionally, and I think (I could
be wrong on this) an S-brain doesn't need to do that.  An M-brain does, but
this doesn't look M-brainy to me.  I can't figure out why a young M-brain
would need to be clumpy, and if it is, it probably doesn't need to radiate
directionally.

Oh that last comment is screaming at me in the distance.  Perhaps there is a
reason to make an M-brain clumpy, such as local reduction of signal latency?
And to remove the necessity of throwing away perfectly good low-entropy
energy?  Humanity is clumpy: we scatter out all over the globe, but clump in
a few big cities, then radiate our waste toward sparsely populated regions.
Perhaps M-brains do that too in a sense.  

spike




_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat



From bbenzai at yahoo.com  Mon May 22 19:06:26 2017
From: bbenzai at yahoo.com (Ben)
Date: Mon, 22 May 2017 20:06:26 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Translation AI (was dying?)
In-Reply-To: <mailman.268.1495391434.5337.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.268.1495391434.5337.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <592336B2.3020304@yahoo.com>

bill w wrote
 > a lot of people seem to be so impatient to hook
 > themselves up to PCs and whatnot to improve their abilities, then get
 > implants, etc.  What for?


That question is in jest, surely? Or a rhetorical question, to stir up 
conversation?

I can think of at least 10 reasons, without even pausing. Then I'd maybe 
need to think a bit to come up with 10 more.


Ben Zaiboc


From johnkclark at gmail.com  Mon May 22 21:21:06 2017
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Mon, 22 May 2017 17:21:06 -0400
Subject: [ExI] tabby's star dimming again
In-Reply-To: <f5ece51b3de799afaaf374caadbf1174.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
References: <f5ece51b3de799afaaf374caadbf1174.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv1th7-35XSdLMDr1uUx_hOqauQjW5kah+ht=DsHexU7Qg@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, May 22, 2017 at 1:23 AM, Stuart LaForge <avant at sollegro.com> wrote:

>
?> ?
> Well somebody had to be first and so maybe we are the second.


?So in a observable universe ?
 27,600,000,000 light years in diameter the only other technological
civilization just happens to be only 1480 light years away and Kepler just
happened to find it even though it was looking at 1/400 of the sky and it
just happened to find it when ET had the technological chops to build 5% of
a Dyson Sphere but no more? Doesn't seem very likely. ?


> How many
> ? ?
> yellow dwarves are THAT much closer to them than we are?
>

That's another problem, Tabby's Star
? ?
it's not a G class yellow star like our sun, it's a larger F class white
star with about 1.43 times the mass of the sun. Even a small increase in
mass causes a star to burn a lot bright and die much younger, I uses a star
lifetime calculator

http://mrphome.net/starlifecalculator.htm

?and ?it said the lifetime of a star of that mass would only be about 40%
that of our sun, so
Tabby's Star
? must be much younger than our sun, too little time I think for Evolution
to produce beings smart enough to build 5% of a Dyson Sphere. ?


John K Clark
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170522/b0892796/attachment.html>

From sen.otaku at gmail.com  Mon May 22 21:40:06 2017
From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard)
Date: Mon, 22 May 2017 16:40:06 -0500
Subject: [ExI] tabby's star dimming again
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv1th7-35XSdLMDr1uUx_hOqauQjW5kah+ht=DsHexU7Qg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f5ece51b3de799afaaf374caadbf1174.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
 <CAJPayv1th7-35XSdLMDr1uUx_hOqauQjW5kah+ht=DsHexU7Qg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABf9QbBESbQy8m2rXQ2EU_UhWL799xKy3U-tRebXzdyUSZZUmA@mail.gmail.com>

On May 22, 2017 4:23 PM, "John Clark" <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

On Mon, May 22, 2017 at 1:23 AM, Stuart LaForge <avant at sollegro.com> wrote:

>
?> ?
> Well somebody had to be first and so maybe we are the second.


?So in a observable universe ?
 27,600,000,000 light years in diameter the only other technological
civilization just happens to be only 1480 light years away and Kepler just
happened to find it even though it was looking at 1/400 of the sky and it
just happened to find it when ET had the technological chops to build 5% of
a Dyson Sphere but no more? Doesn't seem very likely.


There's no reason to think it would be the only one. It would just be the
only one we can see YET. You know as well as I do that the farther we look,
the older the information is. There could be plenty of dyson swarmed stars,
but we might not see them for millions of years.

?and ?it said the lifetime of a star of that mass would only be about 40%
that of our sun, so
Tabby's Star
? must be much younger than our sun, too little time I think for Evolution
to produce beings smart enough to build 5% of a Dyson Sphere.


I mean, there's always a chance that humans are the idiots of the universe,
and other species could have a much more developed intellect. Or a single
language. Or not as prone to epidemic. Or not so religious. Or they don't
experience societal collapses like we do. Under more socially favorable
conditions, we might have significantly more advanced technology.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170522/b5fb891e/attachment.html>

From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Tue May 23 00:04:24 2017
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Mon, 22 May 2017 17:04:24 -0700
Subject: [ExI] letter
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB5EkczV+aCPRW9Rk1GSRdeXROMsFjH_=XeJLkcys+im2A@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, May 21, 2017 at 11:30 AM,  <BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:

snip

> Trump was a desperate vote to change direction and stop the pain.

That might be a rationalization.  I have discussed the evolved path to
wars many times on this list, including a mathematical model of how
genes fare in stressed populations.  The conventional response by a
stressed population in the stone age was the buildup of xenophobic
memes and the ellevation of irrational leaders.

This is tripped off by a relative decline in the stonage age equlivant
of income per capita or prospects of a bleak future.  I don't think
there is a lot of thought involved.

I don't know if the current situation is a precursor to war or not,
but the first step has certainly been taken.

Keith

> BillK


From atymes at gmail.com  Tue May 23 07:30:16 2017
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Tue, 23 May 2017 00:30:16 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Greener Urban Environment
In-Reply-To: <CABf9QbDuBj9WNQ6AbEcmkzusTMvu20zWBV5rBVFN-C5dsPYy5Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABf9QbBmZrbeaa1Qgyv0kQSvQdMncvPqAWodQn5ff2KUk84NLQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNSEw-TDNu3Y7sTGVdaBpTjx23TAxPxg1nZk5x_APcn2Tw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABf9QbDuBj9WNQ6AbEcmkzusTMvu20zWBV5rBVFN-C5dsPYy5Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNSeKy9doY=VWasqHAoKp8hrOLUvzopxb7HTJi0N0uoC7g@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, May 22, 2017 at 4:59 AM, SR Ballard <sen.otaku at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, May 21, 2017 at 4:23 PM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Imagine if you were to build a city for 100,000 from nothing - around
>> some new mining or other rich, fixed-location resource, for an excuse,
>> or if you were just handed design responsibilities for one of the new
>> cities China's popping up all over the place in anticipation of future
>> population.  (If you haven't heard of those, google "China ghost
>> cities".)  How would you plan it?
>
> I'm going to do some noodling and some research, and I'll get back to
> you on this later. I have some initial thoughts, but I'd like to be
> able to give a more detailed response. This might take me a few weeks.
>
>
>> Despite what you may hear from others, college is usually a worthwhile
>> investment of time and money - so long as you major in something you
>> will likely be using in your career.  (So: "fill-in-the-field
>> engineering" yes, "fill-in-the-human-type studies" no.)
>
> For a long time I've been interested in materials science, and the
> design of closed live-work situations, such as space stations,
> bunkers, battleships and submarines. Of course I have my hobbies, but
> there is no need to get a degree in a hobby.

Interesting.  I wasn't going to bring this up out of worry that it
might be a bit much, but my own interest in this stems out of my
designs for a space station colony - as well as for fictional
spaceships.  (I play a few RPGs and have many friends who do, so I
have occasionally written up or made deckplans for ships - usually
space, occasionally naval - to support their games.  I was working on
one just last Saturday, and technically I have been paid for a few of
my designs - nowhere near enough to make a career of, though.)

So, imagine an O'Neill type colony: a cylinder, spinning to create
artificial gravity.  Make it, say, 2 km across the circle and 100 m
end-to-end at first.  (Have an agricultural ring below the 1 km wide
circle, both for food and radiation protection, but that doesn't count
toward living space.)  As people immigrate, extend the cylinder: build
more length, make sure it's airtight and pressurized, then demolish
the former end cap to give access.

End up at around 5 km end-to-end, for just over 31 km^2 of 1G
habitable interior surface area.  A typical European city density of
around 200 m^2/person would mean area for about 155,000 people - but
of course, by the time you reach 100,000 you'd want to be building
more habitat, perhaps another habitat like this linked to the first.
Second one counter-rotates (the hub that links them together allows
for this while keeping an airtight seal), then build the rest in
counter-rotating pairs: third & fourth built at the same time, then
fifth & sixth, and so on, all linked together in one large structure
that can grow to house millions, perhaps eventually billions.  (Of
course, not just all in one single line; perhaps each unit would form
an edge of tessellating hexagons.)

...but I digress.  Imagine how you would lay out such a colony - the
first one, only 100 m wide, just enough space for a few thousand
people.  You get maybe a hundred people at first; only if you make it
sufficiently attractive will it fill up enough to justify (and afford,
from taxes/rent/etc.) building more.  How would you do it?


From sen.otaku at gmail.com  Tue May 23 07:44:47 2017
From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard)
Date: Tue, 23 May 2017 02:44:47 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Space Colony Design (Was: Greener Urban Environment)
Message-ID: <CABf9QbCo0OOxBSV903CwQaZZ4k8h3pFescqwU0Hrm7wBxPxbOQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, May 23, 2017 at 2:30 AM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:

>perhaps another habitat like this linked to the first.
> Second one counter-rotates (the hub that links them together allows
> for this while keeping an airtight seal), then build the rest in
> counter-rotating pairs: third & fourth built at the same time, then
> fifth & sixth, and so on, all linked together in one large structure
> that can grow to house millions, perhaps eventually billions.  (Of
> course, not just all in one single line; perhaps each unit would form
> an edge of tessellating hexagons.)

I have serious misgivings about created a completely linked structure
that is counter rotating. I think it would be better to think of each
section sort of the way Tokyo divides the city into wards, or London &
NYC have Burroughs. Wouldn't it be better to fuse them together
permanently have a limited point of transfer (true airlocks) between
the two parts (normally open) that would snap shut automatically if
they detected a change in air pressure? Rightly or wrongly, I see
human habitations that stay in space as balloons almost. Humans tend
to be quite fragile.


> ...but I digress.  Imagine how you would lay out such a colony - the
> first one, only 100 m wide, just enough space for a few thousand
> people.  You get maybe a hundred people at first; only if you make it
> sufficiently attractive will it fill up enough to justify (and afford,
> from taxes/rent/etc.) building more.  How would you do it?

That's going to take even more noodling than previously because I was
going to make use of underground space for some parts of life. I think
I'll continue with the Earth city first, then this space city.


From avant at sollegro.com  Tue May 23 10:25:30 2017
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Tue, 23 May 2017 03:25:30 -0700
Subject: [ExI] tabby's star dimming again
Message-ID: <052d3e85c57893457f4b35af985d1c9c.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>

John Clark wrote:

>On Mon, May 22, 2017 at 1:23 AM, Stuart LaForge <avant at sollegro.com>
wrote:
?>> Well somebody had to be first and so maybe we are the second.
>
>?So in a observable universe ?
> 27,600,000,000 light years in diameter the only other technological
> civilization just happens to be only 1480 light years away and Kepler just
> happened to find it even though it was looking at 1/400 of the sky and it
> just happened to find it when ET had the technological chops to build 5%
>of a Dyson Sphere but no more? Doesn't seem very likely. ?

On the contrary, a combination of the anthropic principle and the theory
of galactic habitable zones suggests that life would tend to live in
Goldilocks clusters because conditions nearby are more likely to be
permissive of life than conditions far away.

> That's another problem, Tabby's Star?
> it's not a G class yellow star like our sun, it's a larger F class white
> star with about 1.43 times the mass of the sun. Even a small increase in
> mass causes a star to burn a lot bright and die much younger.

Life became apparent on earth about 4 billion years ago essentially as
soon as the earth cooled enough from the late heavy bombardment to allow
it to. Then 2.5 billion years ago, about 1.5 billion years after life
began, cyanobacteria invented photosynthesis. The oxygen made by
photosynthesis enabled multicellular life which appeared in the fossil
record about 600 million years ago after about a 1.9 billion year gap.

Perhaps a brighter star increases the rate of photosynthesis such that the
gaps between the appearence of photosynthesis and the advent of
intelligent life are shortened by 50%. More sunlight means more
reproduction, more reproduction means faster mutation. Faster mutation
means faster evolution.

?> and ?it said the lifetime of a star of that mass would only be about 40%
> that of our sun, so
> Tabby's Star must be much younger than our sun, too little time I think
>for Evolution to produce beings smart enough to build 5% of a Dyson
>Sphere.

How old is Tabby's star? What about its companion star the alleged red
dwarf? How do astronomers distinguish between red and brown dwarfs or
Dysoned stars any how? Could not some red dwarfs be much brighter stars
that have been Dysoned and only look dim and red because that is the waste
heat we are seeing? ?

Stuart LaForge




From johnkclark at gmail.com  Tue May 23 16:16:50 2017
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Tue, 23 May 2017 12:16:50 -0400
Subject: [ExI] tabby's star dimming again
In-Reply-To: <052d3e85c57893457f4b35af985d1c9c.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
References: <052d3e85c57893457f4b35af985d1c9c.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv1mnakDdyKMF_D1Qv=GDsVeVks_DaXRKqXtz2XuufLq5g@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, May 23, 2017 at 6:25 AM, Stuart LaForge <avant at sollegro.com> wrote:

>
>
>> ?> ?
>> ?So in a observable universe ? 27,600,000,000 light years in diameter the
>> only other technological civilization just happens to be only 1480 light
>> years away and Kepler just
>> ? ?
>> happened to find it even though it was looking at 1/400 of the sky and it
>> ? ?
>> just happened to find it when ET had the technological chops to build 5%
>> ? ?
>> of a Dyson Sphere but no more? Doesn't seem very likely. ?
>
>
> On the contrary, a combination of the anthropic principle and the theory
> ? ?
> of galactic habitable zones suggests that life would tend to live in
> ? ?
> Goldilocks clusters


?Yes, too close to the galactic center and there is too much gamma
radiation from Supernovas and the Supermassive Black Hole, and too far from
the center and there are not enough elements other than Hydrogen and Helium
to support life. But the Galactic goldilocks zone is HUGE, it forms a ring
between 13,000 and 33,000 light years from the center, Earth is 26,000
light years from our Galaxy's center.  And there are at least 200 billion
Galaxies in the observable universe. A planet 1480 light years away is our
next door neighbor
?
galactically
? ?
speaking and even more so cosmically speaking. So I ask again, if ET is
real when we look into the night sky why isn't it obvious that the universe
has been engineered?       ?


>
?> ?
> Life became apparent on earth about 4 billion years ago essentially as
> ? ?
> soon as the earth cooled enough from the late heavy bombardment to allowit
> to.


?Correct again. On Earth life could not have occurred earlier, it happened
almost as soon as liquid water could exist on the surface, but for all we
know that could of been freakishly early, on other planets it may have
taken much longer.  For intelligence to form on a planet life may have to
start freakishly early, if not their sun might not give Evolution enough
time to produce intelligence before it dies of old age. After all, in the
nearly 4 billion year history of life on this planet Evolution only managed
to come up with a technological civilization once, and it only happened a
few thousand years ago.


> ?> ?
> Then 2.5 billion years ago, about 1.5 billion years after life
> ? ?
> began, cyanobacteria invented photosynthesis. The oxygen made by
> ? ?
> photosynthesis enabled multicellular life which appeared in the fossil
> ? ?
> record about 600 million years ago after about a 1.9 billion year gap.
> Perhaps a brighter star increases the rate of photosynthesis such that the
> ? ?
> gaps between the appearence of photosynthesis and the advent of
> ? ?
> intelligent life are shortened by 50%.


?Why? If it's a planet that can support liquid ?water and its sun is
brighter than ours then it must be further from it's sun than we are from
our sun. So from that planet the disk of the sun would look more intensely
bright than what we see from our planet but it would also look smaller, so
the total amount of solar energy reaching the surface would be the same on
both planets.

>
?> ?
> How old is Tabby's star?


?I don't know, but with 1.43 solar masses if it were as old as our sun it
would be a dead white dwarf by now, or maybe a neutron star.


?> ?
> What about its companion star the alleged red
> ? ?
> dwarf?


?Companion

?stars?
 may not die together but they are born together, they are of the same age?.


 John K Clark
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170523/3afb5947/attachment.html>

From johnkclark at gmail.com  Tue May 23 16:33:52 2017
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Tue, 23 May 2017 12:33:52 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Trump budget seeks huge cuts to science and medical research,
	disease prevention
Message-ID: <CAJPayv1bJfgnsiLtR2EgYT7v76YdCsLF=vnTVmV1RYJT6uMAog@mail.gmail.com>

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/to-your-health/wp/2017/05/22/trump-budget-seeks-huge-cuts-to-disease-prevention-and-medical-research-departments/?utm_term=.88109da7f5cc
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170523/2fcacbf9/attachment.html>

From pharos at gmail.com  Tue May 23 19:22:03 2017
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Tue, 23 May 2017 20:22:03 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Seeing isn't believing
Message-ID: <CAL_armjMQXrg+9k8GxcR6KTVKU21K04aYh6nMGmEc2pp6h-6EQ@mail.gmail.com>

Weird energy beam seems to travel five times the speed of light.
Joshua Sokol  22 May 2017

<https://www.newscientist.com/article/2131889-weird-energy-beam-seems-to-travel-five-times-the-speed-of-light/>

Quotes:
An energy beam that stabs out of galaxy M87 like a toothpick in a
cocktail olive is pulling off the ultimate magic trick: seeming to
move faster than the speed of light. Almost five times faster, in
fact, as measured by the Hubble Space Telescope. This feat was first
observed in 1995 in galaxy M87,  and has been seen in many other
galaxies since.
It might have you questioning your entire reality. Nothing can break
the cosmic speed limit, right? You can?t just flaunt the laws of
physics? can you?

Explanation:

To understand the illusion, picture a single glowing blob of plasma
starting at the base of this path and emitting a ray of light, both of
which travel towards Earth. Now wait 10 years. In that time, the blob
has moved closer at a sizeable fraction of the speed of light. That
gives the rays emitted from that later position a few light years?
head start on the way to us.

If you compare the first and second images from Earth?s perspective,
it looks like the blob has just moved across the sky to the right. But
because the second position is also closer to us, its light has had
less far to travel than it appears. That means it seems to have
arrived there faster than it actually did ? as if the blob spent those
10 years travelling at ludicrous speed.

And although the faster-than-light effect is old hat to her, she still
stops to appreciate it sometimes. Most things we see travelling across
the sky, such as planets and comets, are close to us. But M87 is tens
of millions of light years away. ?We can see, over a human lifetime,
things moving,? she says. ?Which is crazy.?
----------------------

BillK



From avant at sollegro.com  Wed May 24 01:49:17 2017
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Tue, 23 May 2017 18:49:17 -0700
Subject: [ExI] tabby's star dimming again
Message-ID: <d581ee767519b5eb633c679c528717dd.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>

John Clark wrote:
 ?
>> ?So in a observable universe ? 27,600,000,000 light years in diameter the
>> only other technological civilization just happens to be only 1480 light
>> years away and Kepler just
>> ? ?
>> happened to find it even though it was looking at 1/400 of the sky and it
>> ? ?
>> just happened to find it when ET had the technological chops to build 5%
>> ? ?
>> of a Dyson Sphere but no more? Doesn't seem very likely. ?

Irregardless of whatever explanation is found for it, Tabby's Star will go
down in history as one of the luckiest breaks in all of science. It
doesn't matter if it's aliens or some novel physical phenomenon that is
paradoxically both mundane and seemingly unique, the odds that a telescope
with a broken servo happened to be looking at it when it happened are
quite low. Maybe it was superdeterminism. ;-)

>? Yes, too close to the galactic center and there is too much gamma
> radiation from Supernovas and the Supermassive Black Hole, and too far  
  > from the center and there are not enough elements other than
Hydrogen and > Helium to support life. But the Galactic goldilocks zone
is HUGE, it forms > a ring between 13,000 and 33,000 light years from
the center, Earth is    > 26,000 light years from our Galaxy's center. 
And there are at least 200   > billion Galaxies in the observable
universe.

Let's please constrain the search space to our own galaxy. Apart from the
closest galaxies in our own cluster, we would have very little chance of
noticing engineered galaxies in the rest of the universe. As Sophie
mentioned im her post, beyond a certain point, we are looking so far into
the past that nothing can be concluded about the present. Most of the
galaxies could have been Dysoned off back in age of the dinosaurs and we
would be none-the-wiser for a few billion more years.

With regard to the Milky Way then, we can assume we are somewhere in the
middle of the habitable zone. From our vantage point we are only able to
view at most about 1/2 of the goldilocks zone because the hot gas and
crazy radio sources in the galactic bulge would obscure any signal from
the far side of the ring of life. Furthermore radio signals and the
density of bright stars would likely screw up observation even of life in
the centerward direction along the radial line from the galactic core to
our solar system. Thus even having the galactic core in the background
could cause too much noise.

Therefore we are stuck looking for life in two relatively narrow swaths of
the life zone on either side of the galactic bulge. And even less if we
are on the outward edge of the life ring. Find the solar system and the
constellation of Cygnus at 90 degrees on the following galactic map:

https://astronomytopicoftheday.files.wordpress.com/2016/08/milky_way_arms_ssc2008-10-svg.png

Notice that Tabby's Star located in the constellation Cygnus is almost in
the same orbit as we are around the galactic nucleus. That's amazing!

> A planet 1480 light years away is our next door neighbor galactically   
 > speaking and even more so cosmically speaking. So I ask again, if ET
is   > real when we look into the night sky why isn't it obvious that
the        > universe has been engineered?

Because most of the galaxies we can see didn't have metals when the light
we observe left them. Without metals how do you engineer anything let
alone galaxies?      ?

> For intelligence to form on a planet life may have to
> start freakishly early, if not their sun might not give Evolution enough
> time to produce intelligence before it dies of old age. After all, in the
> nearly 4 billion year history of life on this planet Evolution only     
 > managed to come up with a technological civilization once, and it
only    > happened a few thousand years ago.

True but evolution is a stochastic process like a random walk. You might
never reach your destination or you might get lucky and reach it in the
first few steps. The point is that we don't know if we are early, late, or
somewhere in the middle. But drunk or not, the faster you walk, the more
places you can get to in a shorter amount of time.


?> Why [should photosynthesis occur more readily under a hotter star]? If 
  > it's a planet that can support liquid ?water and its sun is
> brighter than ours then it must be further from it's sun than we are from
> our sun. So from that planet the disk of the sun would look more intensely
> bright than what we see from our planet but it would also look smaller, so
> the total amount of solar energy reaching the surface would be the same on
> both planets.

Yes but not all solar flux is created the same. In photosynthesis it is
the blue wavelengths in the neighborhood of 450 nm that do most of the
heavy lifting. A hotter more massive star should have it entire spectrum
shifted blueward. Thus more "high calorie" light for the plants to gobble
up. The increased vigor of plant growth should cascade up the food chain
such that even apex predators should have more offspring and thereby
evolve faster.

I admit this is no more than informed speculation. I got no proof that
Tabby's star is an ET civ. But life is pretty damn good at long shots and
I can't think of any physical phenomenon that fits the description of
"mundane but unique" better than life.

Stuart LaForge




From atymes at gmail.com  Wed May 24 03:47:41 2017
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Tue, 23 May 2017 20:47:41 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Space Colony Design (Was: Greener Urban Environment)
In-Reply-To: <CABf9QbCo0OOxBSV903CwQaZZ4k8h3pFescqwU0Hrm7wBxPxbOQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABf9QbCo0OOxBSV903CwQaZZ4k8h3pFescqwU0Hrm7wBxPxbOQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNTiD1-d4hHP9UwjmeOYfrL_L+UTsWf-MTvHJdQm5-BsxQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, May 23, 2017 at 12:44 AM, SR Ballard <sen.otaku at gmail.com> wrote:
> I have serious misgivings about created a completely linked structure
> that is counter rotating. I think it would be better to think of each
> section sort of the way Tokyo divides the city into wards, or London &
> NYC have Burroughs. Wouldn't it be better to fuse them together
> permanently have a limited point of transfer (true airlocks) between
> the two parts (normally open) that would snap shut automatically if
> they detected a change in air pressure? Rightly or wrongly, I see
> human habitations that stay in space as balloons almost. Humans tend
> to be quite fragile.

I was thinking basically large airlocks between the parts, yeah.  Each
100Kish people section would be a different segment, structured (and
thus probably governed) like a separate city.

> That's going to take even more noodling than previously because I was
> going to make use of underground space for some parts of life. I think
> I'll continue with the Earth city first, then this space city.

Fair enough.  :)


From johnkclark at gmail.com  Wed May 24 22:31:01 2017
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Wed, 24 May 2017 18:31:01 -0400
Subject: [ExI] tabby's star dimming again
In-Reply-To: <d581ee767519b5eb633c679c528717dd.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
References: <d581ee767519b5eb633c679c528717dd.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv0nk5RXbo0tpFLkSq3ZHSnj6FodGqL0-eDoLqyOpB_CVA@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, May 23, 2017 at 9:49 PM, Stuart LaForge <avant at sollegro.com> wrote:

?> ?
> Irregardless of whatever explanation is found for it, Tabby's Star will go
> down in history as one of the luckiest breaks in all of science.


I
?have a hunch?
 the explanation will be more mundane. On January 26 2016  Tabetha
? (Tabby)?
Boyajian
? and her team wrote a paper:?

https://arxiv.org/pdf/1509.03622.pdf

?It hypothesized that the dimming was caused by something like a giant
comet in an elliptical orbit of 750 days and predicted (remember this was
over a year ago) that it would start to dim again in May 2017, this very
month. Just a few days ago it was reported that from the start to the
finish of a single night of observing Tabby's Star dimmed by 2%. We should
know more soon, if it's a cloud of dust and gas (like a comet) the dimming
should be greater at bluer wavelengths than red, but if it's a solid object
the dimming should be the same at all wavelengths,

?> ?
> Let's please constrain the search space to our own galaxy.


?Why??



> ?> ?
> Apart from the
> ? ?
> closest galaxies in our own cluster, we would have very little chance of
> ?
> noticing engineered galaxies in the rest of the universe.


?Why? A engineered galaxy containing 100,000,000,000 Dyson Spheres would be
easily visible even 5 billion light yeas away, but we see no such thing,
instead we observe billions of suns in billions of galaxies radiating all
their valuable energy uselessly into the cold of empty space.


> ?> ?
> Most of the
> ? ?
> galaxies could have been Dysoned off back in age of the dinosaurs and we
> ?
> would be none-the-wiser for a few billion more years.
>

?Dinosaurs were around until yesterday, or rather until 66 million years
ago, but in a universe 13.8 billion years old that amounts to pretty much
the same thing.

?> ?
> Notice that Tabby's Star located in the constellation Cygnus is almost in
> the same orbit as we are around the galactic nucleus. That's amazing!
>

?If it's only 1480 light years away it would pretty much have to.?


?> ?
> most of the galaxies we can see didn't have metals when the light
> we observe left them. Without metals how do you engineer anything let
> alone galaxies?


?That's true for the most distant galaxies we can see, but not for the many
billion we can see that are closer than 5 or 6 billion light years. ?
    ?

> >
>> ?> ?
>> For intelligence to form on a planet life may have to
>> ? ?
>> start freakishly early, if not their sun might not give Evolution enough
>> ? ?
>> time to produce intelligence before it dies of old age. After all, in the
>> ? ?
>> nearly 4 billion year history of life on this planet Evolution only
>> ? ?
>> managed to come up with a technological civilization once, and it
>> ? ?
>> only happened a few thousand years ago.
>
>
> ?> ?
> True but evolution is a stochastic process like a random walk. You might
> ? ?
> never reach your destination or you might get lucky and reach it in the
> ? ?
> first few steps. The point is that we don't know if we are early, late, or
> ? ?
> somewhere in the middle.


?We know for sure that Earth wasn't late in inventing life, it started
almost as soon as liquid water appeared, it simply couldn't ?
?have happened sooner. As for intelligent life, either we're the first or
something destroys all technological civilizations when they get to about
our level.

?> Why [should photosynthesis occur more readily under a hotter star]? If
>> ?
>>   it's a planet that can support liquid ?water and its sun is
>> ?
>>  brighter than ours then it must be further from it's sun than we are from
>> ?
>>  our sun. So from that planet the disk of the sun would look more
>> intensely
>> ?
>>  bright than what we see from our planet but it would also look smaller,
>> so
>> ?
>>  the total amount of solar energy reaching the surface would be the same
>> on
>> ?
>>  both planets.
>
>
> ?> ?
> Yes but not all solar flux is created the same. In photosynthesis it is
> the blue wavelengths in the neighborhood of 450 nm that do most of the
> heavy lifting. A hotter more massive star should have it entire spectrum
> shifted blueward.


?And that means the star would produce more ultraviolet radiation which
destroys biological molecules.


> Thus more "high calorie" light for the plants to gobble
> ? ?
> up. The increased vigor of plant growth should cascade up the food chain
> ? ?
> such that even apex predators should have more offspring and thereby
> ? ?
> evolve faster.
>

?
The time in Earth's history where the total amount of biomass
? w
as greatest occurred
?
during the
?
Carboniferous
?
Era which ended about 80 million years before the first dinosaur. Back then
there was a huge amount of plant life, so mush so that there was nearly
twice as much oxygen in the air as now (forest fires must have been a
bitch) and about 3 times as much CO2; Yet
?
the most advanced land animals at the time were 9 foot
?
millipedes, dragonflies the size of falcons, and 18 inch
?
long cockroaches
?.?

.
And
?
I think it would be
?
very unlikely
?
sea creatures
?
could ever
?
develop technology. The laws of Newtonian Physics were hard enough to
discover
?by?
 humans who lived in a
? ?
n
?
atmosphere not a vacuum, but it would be
?
enormously
?
harder
?
to do so
?
under water
?
where
?
it would look like
?
things
?
never
?
move at the same speed unless a force is constantly applied, and
?
smart
?
 fish wouldn't have the motions of the stars and planets to help them
figure out basic physics. Even humans would never have discovered Quantum
Mechanics if they hadn't figured out a way to make a vacuum
?
so the
?y?
could perform experiments
? in it?
.
?
And intelligent fish would lack fire
?
, so they'd have no way to work metal, no iron or bronze or even copper
tools, and no steam engines
?
to start a industrial revolution.

? ?
John K Clark
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170524/d9e1dc08/attachment.html>

From spike66 at att.net  Thu May 25 00:47:21 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 24 May 2017 17:47:21 -0700
Subject: [ExI] tabby's star dimming again
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv0nk5RXbo0tpFLkSq3ZHSnj6FodGqL0-eDoLqyOpB_CVA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d581ee767519b5eb633c679c528717dd.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
 <CAJPayv0nk5RXbo0tpFLkSq3ZHSnj6FodGqL0-eDoLqyOpB_CVA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <008001d2d4f0$78e8fbe0$6abaf3a0$@att.net>

 

 

From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of John Clark



? 

>?during the Carboniferous Era ? there was nearly twice as much oxygen in the air as now (forest fires must have been a bitch) and about 3 times as much CO2; Yet

? the most advanced land animals at the time were 9 foot millipedes, dragonflies the size of falcons, and 18 inch long cockroaches? John K Clark

 

 

Ok so we have bred dogs of all sizes from wolves in only a few hundred 

generations.  Wouldn?t it be cool to try to set up a big tent or some kind 

of sealed bio-sphere and start trying to breed up these monsters again?  

Could you even imagine the fun we could have with a freaking 18 inch cock

roach?  It would be perfectly safe too: if he got loose and escaped the lab

(imagine that, you know how people freak out over a little 3 inch cock

roach, well you know they would go insane over an 18 incher, wooohooo!)

well, he would just suffocate and go limp.

 

Oh and those dragonflies, I would like to try to create them, just to eat it.  It might

sound rather unappetizing, but consider how gross a prawn looks.  Think about it,

a dragonfly, one big enough to have some actual meat on that tail, might be a

delicacy undevoured by humankind, cool!

 

spike

 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170524/705da315/attachment.html>

From sparge at gmail.com  Thu May 25 13:29:10 2017
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Thu, 25 May 2017 09:29:10 -0400
Subject: [ExI] tabby's star dimming again
In-Reply-To: <008001d2d4f0$78e8fbe0$6abaf3a0$@att.net>
References: <d581ee767519b5eb633c679c528717dd.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
 <CAJPayv0nk5RXbo0tpFLkSq3ZHSnj6FodGqL0-eDoLqyOpB_CVA@mail.gmail.com>
 <008001d2d4f0$78e8fbe0$6abaf3a0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2eRsHspi9wX0HG1rUS5PGROYTnBxZNXxe8gv4YaVau1dA@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, May 24, 2017 at 8:47 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

>
>
> Could you even imagine the fun we could have with a freaking 18 inch cock
>

Really!


> roach?
>

Oh. :-)

-Dave
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170525/c09cfd01/attachment.html>

From sparge at gmail.com  Thu May 25 13:42:00 2017
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Thu, 25 May 2017 09:42:00 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Google AI defeats human Go champion
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2f3iyoa-7eUNwrccjdu79jd=y2sqZHzg2S+=MO7gZ429w@mail.gmail.com>

http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-40042581

*Google's DeepMind AlphaGo artificial intelligence has defeated the world's
number one Go player Ke Jie.*

*AlphaGo secured the victory after winning the second game in a three-part
match.*

*DeepMind founder Demis Hassabis said Ke Jie had played "perfectly" and
"pushed AlphaGo right to the limit".*

*Following the defeat, Ke Jie told reporters: "I'm a little bit sad, it's a
bit of a regret because I think I played pretty well."*

*...*

Prof Noel Sharkey, a computer scientist at Sheffield University, said it is
still a long way from creating a general intelligence.

"It is an incredible achievement and most experts thought an AI winning at
Go was 20 years away so DeepMind is leading the field but this AI doesn't
have general intelligence. It doesn't know that is playing a game and it
can't make you a cup of tea afterwards."

Prof Nello Cristianini, from Bristol University, added: "This is machine
learning in action and it proves that machines are very capable but it is
not general intelligence. No-one has built that yet."

-Dave
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170525/a30369ff/attachment.html>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Thu May 25 14:58:18 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Thu, 25 May 2017 09:58:18 -0500
Subject: [ExI] tabby's star dimming again
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2eRsHspi9wX0HG1rUS5PGROYTnBxZNXxe8gv4YaVau1dA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d581ee767519b5eb633c679c528717dd.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
 <CAJPayv0nk5RXbo0tpFLkSq3ZHSnj6FodGqL0-eDoLqyOpB_CVA@mail.gmail.com>
 <008001d2d4f0$78e8fbe0$6abaf3a0$@att.net>
 <CAM5aL2eRsHspi9wX0HG1rUS5PGROYTnBxZNXxe8gv4YaVau1dA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYrTWp_=HrfCEqxg0ywy_xyY0YO_S42sJfguLP4Z1Wt9g@mail.gmail.com>

spike wrote - but consider how gross a prawn looks

A friend found out that deveining a shrimp did not mean taking out a vein
but a gut.  It totally grossed him out, finding out that he had been eating
shrimp shit for decades.

bill w

On Thu, May 25, 2017 at 8:29 AM, Dave Sill <sparge at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Wed, May 24, 2017 at 8:47 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Could you even imagine the fun we could have with a freaking 18 inch cock
>>
>
> Really!
>
>
>> roach?
>>
>
> Oh. :-)
>
> -Dave
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170525/952d5d62/attachment.html>

From avant at sollegro.com  Thu May 25 14:33:27 2017
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Thu, 25 May 2017 07:33:27 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Trilemma of Consciousness
Message-ID: <cb24061ffad561364e6ff97cc20af47c.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>

Some of you might remember my mathematical musings on the computability of
consciousness linked to here:
http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/2016-December/091135.html
http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/2017-January/091224.html

My idle boast of being able to easily prove the undecidability of the
generalized Turing test based on Russell's paradox was premature as I was
thwarted by the funny fact that modern set theory has two additional
axioms specifically designed to disallow Russell's Paradox. You can read
about that here:
https://proofwiki.org/wiki/Russell's_Paradox

So despite the zombie detector being intuitively true, I was unable to
prove it rigorously using set theory. So I had change my tact completely.
Here is the latest sketch of my proof:

Theorem: Consciousness can only be one of the following: 1. a property of
all Turing machines, 2. an undecidable property of some Turing machines,
or 3. not a property of Turing machines at all.

Proof

Axiom 1: Let F(n) be the nth computable function with n being an
admissible numbering of all possible computable functions.
Axiom 2: Let K be the subset of F(n) such that all K share a semantic
property k.
Definition 1: Let k be called trivial if all F(n) have property k.
Definition 2. Let k be called null if no F(n) has property k.
Axiom 3: Let Dt be the decision problem as to whether a given F(n) belongs
in K.

Theorem: By axioms 1-3, definitions 1-2, and Rice's Theorem, Dt is
decidable if, and only if, k is trivial or null.

Corallary: The set K of conscious functions is noncomputable.

Q.E.D.

In other words, the generalized Turing test is decidable IFF all computer
programs are conscious or none are. Or equivalently, the GTT is
noncomputable.

Thoughts, anyone?

Stuart LaForge








From danust2012 at gmail.com  Thu May 25 15:36:41 2017
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Thu, 25 May 2017 08:36:41 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Fleeting phase of planet formation discovered
Message-ID: <961BBF6D-44E5-4EE3-9A25-3488A05C7104@gmail.com>

http://www.nature.com/news/fleeting-phase-of-planet-formation-discovered-1.22039

I was hoping this wasn't based on simulations but actually detected by observation. Interesting that this backs the accretion theory of lunar formation -- as against the giant impact theory. 

Regards,

Dan
  Sample my Kindle books via:
http://author.to/DanUst
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170525/d8641fcd/attachment.html>

From spike66 at att.net  Thu May 25 16:23:48 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 25 May 2017 09:23:48 -0700
Subject: [ExI] big bugs, was:  RE:  tabby's star dimming again
Message-ID: <004b01d2d573$4ad64f40$e082edc0$@att.net>

 

 

From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Dave Sill
Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2017 6:29 AM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: Re: [ExI] tabby's star dimming again

 

On Wed, May 24, 2017 at 8:47 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net <mailto:spike66 at att.net> > wrote:

 

Could you even imagine the fun we could have with a freaking 18 inch cock

 

Really!

 

roach?

 

Oh. :-)

 

-Dave

 

 

 

Dave you will pardon me please.  I have been reading a collection of Mark Twain short stories.  His writing is filled with fun Easter eggs, most of which goes right over the heads of the younger crowd.  I want to be like him when I grow up.  I try to insert subtle humor where I can in my own writing.

 

They wouldn?t really be just for eating, but perhaps as guard beasts, cheaper to feed perhaps than a watch dog.  It would be kinda fun just to see if there were any foods a watch roach wouldn?t devour.  

 

We could make some really cool horror movies with these babies.

 

We could perhaps use them to clean up food industry waste (the stuff that is so revolting it makes the hogs barf) or congress.  Hmmm, OK that?s a bit of a stretch.  But the first part about giant roaches cleaning up food industry waste might work.

 

spike

 

 

 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170525/52073260/attachment.html>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Thu May 25 16:58:23 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Thu, 25 May 2017 11:58:23 -0500
Subject: [ExI] mark twain;
	was Re:  big bugs, was: RE: tabby's star dimming again
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbbu8vV27YdzMCW2KMtcMmPAYQtU2Y3UNNP0fGUA4=cUQ@mail.gmail.com>

have been reading a collection of Mark Twain short stories.  spike

https://americanliterature.com/author/mark-twain/short-story/experience-of-the-mcwilliamses-with-membranous-croup

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Mrs._McWilliams_and_the_Lightning

I rarely laugh out loud, public or private, but these two are the funniest
things ever written by anyone.  I think both are stories based on him and
his wife, probably juiced up a bit.

Do not die before reading these stories, everyone.

bill w



On Thu, May 25, 2017 at 11:23 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *From:* extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] *On
> Behalf Of *Dave Sill
> *Sent:* Thursday, May 25, 2017 6:29 AM
> *To:* ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] tabby's star dimming again
>
>
>
> On Wed, May 24, 2017 at 8:47 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> Could you even imagine the fun we could have with a freaking 18 inch cock
>
>
>
> Really!
>
>
>
> roach?
>
>
>
> Oh. :-)
>
>
>
> -Dave
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Dave you will pardon me please.  I have been reading a collection of Mark
> Twain short stories.  His writing is filled with fun Easter eggs, most of
> which goes right over the heads of the younger crowd.  I want to be like
> him when I grow up.  I try to insert subtle humor where I can in my own
> writing.
>
>
>
> They wouldn?t really be just for eating, but perhaps as guard beasts,
> cheaper to feed perhaps than a watch dog.  It would be kinda fun just to
> see if there were any foods a watch roach wouldn?t devour.
>
>
>
> We could make some really cool horror movies with these babies.
>
>
>
> We could perhaps use them to clean up food industry waste (the stuff that
> is so revolting it makes the hogs barf) or congress.  Hmmm, OK that?s a bit
> of a stretch.  But the first part about giant roaches cleaning up food
> industry waste might work.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170525/e7ebc08d/attachment.html>

From spike66 at att.net  Thu May 25 17:15:01 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 25 May 2017 10:15:01 -0700
Subject: [ExI] bug eating again, was: RE:  tabby's star dimming again
Message-ID: <009a01d2d57a$722b9170$5682b450$@att.net>

 

 

From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace
Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2017 7:58 AM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: Re: [ExI] tabby's star dimming again

 

spike wrote - but consider how gross a prawn looks

 

A friend found out that deveining a shrimp did not mean taking out a vein but a gut.  It totally grossed him out, finding out that he had been eating shrimp shit for decades.

 

bill w

 

 

 

 

 

Billw, it was a teaching/learning moment for your friend.  

 

Food and our perceptions of the enjoyment of eating are mostly all in the mind.  Your friend never suffered one bit of health problems from devouring shrimp, ja?  They taste great, deveined or otherwise.  The human digestive system doesn?t seem to care what we throw down there; it does its thing.

 

If your friend is squicked by shrimp, do suggest he not study into sausage and how it is made.  Suffice it to say the slaughterhouse doesn?t waste food.  It takes the bacon, the shoulder roast meat, the shanks, the ribs, all the good ham and pork that can be sold in a styro package with plastic wrap, pickles the feet and snout (which go to local Vietnamese groceries) and some take even the swine?s ovaries (for stew).  Then eeeeeverything else goes into a boiling vat.  Whatever can?t be ground and spiced enough to go into sausage gets fed back to the hogs.

 

OK then: how many of us here have suffered any gastronomic distress from eating sausage?

 

I haven?t either.  I like sausage, I like pepperoni, all the revolting yet tasty stuff they make with cleverly-spiced porcine bio-garbage.

 

The notion of eating bugs really warms on a prole once she really starts to think hard about how efficient they are at converting inedible stuff into questionably edible stuff.  If nothing else, perhaps we can feed the bugs to the hogs then devour the hogs.

 

spike

 

 

 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170525/5e087f1a/attachment.html>

From spike66 at att.net  Thu May 25 17:39:41 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 25 May 2017 10:39:41 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Fleeting phase of planet formation discovered
In-Reply-To: <961BBF6D-44E5-4EE3-9A25-3488A05C7104@gmail.com>
References: <961BBF6D-44E5-4EE3-9A25-3488A05C7104@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00b501d2d57d$e424f020$ac6ed060$@att.net>

 

 

From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Dan TheBookMan
Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2017 8:37 AM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: [ExI] Fleeting phase of planet formation discovered

 

http://www.nature.com/news/fleeting-phase-of-planet-formation-discovered-1.22039 <http://www.nature.com/news/fleeting-phase-of-planet-formation-discovered-1.22039?WT.ec_id=NEWS-20170525&spMailingID=54139291&spUserID=NTEzNjU4MTQ2OAS2&spJobID=1164204244&spReportId=MTE2NDIwNDI0NAS2> 


I was hoping this wasn't based on simulations but actually detected by observation. Interesting that this backs the accretion theory of lunar formation -- as against the giant impact theory. 

Regards,





Dan

 

 

 

Dan simulations might be better than observation for figuring out how these things could happen.  I am pondering if this might explain what we are seeing in Tabby?s star: a huge synestia formed recently out at a Saturn-ish radius perhaps a few thousand Saturn-ring radius.

 

If this is the right explanation, we won?t see any further dips of Tabby?s star for the next couple decades.  If it is wrong, we will see another dip in just a couple years from now, and we will again be puzzled at where the IR signature went.

 

Cool!

 

spike

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170525/be70d09a/attachment.html>

From pharos at gmail.com  Thu May 25 18:09:17 2017
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Thu, 25 May 2017 19:09:17 +0100
Subject: [ExI] bug eating again, was: RE: tabby's star dimming again
In-Reply-To: <009a01d2d57a$722b9170$5682b450$@att.net>
References: <009a01d2d57a$722b9170$5682b450$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAL_armga2ozQrXKk-n_tDEAgtSNXu_+wzmL+Nifn2sTB0TURWQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 25 May 2017 at 18:15, spike  wrote:
>
> Billw, it was a teaching/learning moment for your friend.
>
> Food and our perceptions of the enjoyment of eating are mostly all in the
> mind.  Your friend never suffered one bit of health problems from devouring
> shrimp, ja?  They taste great, deveined or otherwise.  The human digestive
> system doesn?t seem to care what we throw down there; it does its thing.
>

The black 'vein' that is the shrimp digestive tract doesn't contain
anything like human poo. :)
It will be grit or sand grains. If the 'vein' is translucent or
invisible, that means it has been cleaned out, usually by keeping the
shrimps overnight in fresh water.

>
> The notion of eating bugs really warms on a prole once she really starts to
> think hard about how efficient they are at converting inedible stuff into
> questionably edible stuff.  If nothing else, perhaps we can feed the bugs to
> the hogs then devour the hogs.
>

Indeed insects are eaten in many parts of the world. Fried and dipped
in chocolate, mashed up to make paste then fried into cakes, etc.

BillK



From foozler83 at gmail.com  Thu May 25 18:28:21 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Thu, 25 May 2017 13:28:21 -0500
Subject: [ExI] bug eating again, was: RE: tabby's star dimming again
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armga2ozQrXKk-n_tDEAgtSNXu_+wzmL+Nifn2sTB0TURWQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <009a01d2d57a$722b9170$5682b450$@att.net>
 <CAL_armga2ozQrXKk-n_tDEAgtSNXu_+wzmL+Nifn2sTB0TURWQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbYJ21chi3SK9fChTU7OFkrRHyKRi2Od0oBVhOmVc05Rg@mail.gmail.com>

The notion of eating bugs really warms on a prole once she really starts to
think hard about how efficient they are at converting inedible stuff into
questionably edible stuff.  If nothing else, perhaps we can feed the bugs
to the hogs then devour the hogs.



spike


I read one nutrition book that maintained the eating muscle meat was on the
bottom of the food chain - for animals as well, leaving the muscle meat for
the hyenas etc..  Organ meat was what was desired, particularly the liver.
She recommended eating more lungs, etc.  I am OK with that if it's in
sausage, or fried chicken livers or gizzards.


Feeding animals to themselves brought on epidemics of Bovine Spongiform
Encephalitis, if i am not mistaken.


bill w

On Thu, May 25, 2017 at 1:09 PM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:

> On 25 May 2017 at 18:15, spike  wrote:
> >
> > Billw, it was a teaching/learning moment for your friend.
> >
> > Food and our perceptions of the enjoyment of eating are mostly all in the
> > mind.  Your friend never suffered one bit of health problems from
> devouring
> > shrimp, ja?  They taste great, deveined or otherwise.  The human
> digestive
> > system doesn?t seem to care what we throw down there; it does its thing.
> >
>
> The black 'vein' that is the shrimp digestive tract doesn't contain
> anything like human poo. :)
> It will be grit or sand grains. If the 'vein' is translucent or
> invisible, that means it has been cleaned out, usually by keeping the
> shrimps overnight in fresh water.
>
> >
> > The notion of eating bugs really warms on a prole once she really starts
> to
> > think hard about how efficient they are at converting inedible stuff into
> > questionably edible stuff.  If nothing else, perhaps we can feed the
> bugs to
> > the hogs then devour the hogs.
> >
>
> Indeed insects are eaten in many parts of the world. Fried and dipped
> in chocolate, mashed up to make paste then fried into cakes, etc.
>
> BillK
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170525/efd92143/attachment.html>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Thu May 25 20:14:36 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Thu, 25 May 2017 15:14:36 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Trump's approval ratings - Nate Silver
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYe4mvMPB91dAak3KnUPh=BY5kyPOtOYd3imXiQPc1kYQ@mail.gmail.com>

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/donald-trumps-base-is-shrinking/?utm_source=pocket&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=pockethits

bill w
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170525/ab4b8c2b/attachment.html>

From danust2012 at gmail.com  Thu May 25 20:26:27 2017
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Thu, 25 May 2017 13:26:27 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Fleeting phase of planet formation discovered
In-Reply-To: <00b501d2d57d$e424f020$ac6ed060$@att.net>
References: <961BBF6D-44E5-4EE3-9A25-3488A05C7104@gmail.com>
 <00b501d2d57d$e424f020$ac6ed060$@att.net>
Message-ID: <8094E756-6BA2-4EFC-9396-3853C1A6FA6F@gmail.com>

On Thursday, May 25, 2017 11:00 AM spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>> http://www.nature.com/news/fleeting-phase-of-planet-formation-discovered-1.22039

>> I was hoping this wasn't based on simulations but actually detected by observation.
>> Interesting that this backs the accretion theory of lunar formation -- as
>> against the giant impact theory. >

> Dan simulations might be better than observation for figuring out how these
> things could happen.

I'm not so sure about that. I'm not against such simulations, but I think they must be tested against observations. I'm sure you agree. Otherwise, we just end up building models without ever finding out if these models are more than fun with computers. (Nothing wrong with fun with computers, but the point here is to advance our understanding of planetary formation.)

Also, I imagine, with ever more observations of solar systems birthing, we'll eventually capture something going through this phase. (That it lasts less than a million years, of course, lowers the odds of getting lucky before we have lots more observations in the bin.)


> I am pondering if this might explain what we are seeing in Tabby?s star: a
> huge synestia formed recently out at a Saturn-ish radius perhaps a few
> thousand Saturn-ring radius.

Would a synestia show the same light profile? How to independently verify this?


> If this is the right explanation, we won?t see any further dips of Tabby?s
> star for the next couple decades.  If it is wrong, we will see another dip
> in just a couple years from now, and we will again be puzzled at where the
> IR signature went.

I'm tilting toward something else and more mundane, but I'm not putting any money on my speculations. :)

Regards,

Dan
  Sample my Kindle books via:
http://author.to/DanUst

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170525/458f2f09/attachment.html>

From spike66 at att.net  Thu May 25 20:28:28 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 25 May 2017 13:28:28 -0700
Subject: [ExI] clarification
Message-ID: <015f01d2d595$788940b0$699bc210$@att.net>

 

 

 

For our British and other friends outside the USA, a clarification of what
the US government is doing currently:

 

http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=youtube.com%2fTheGovernment+investigates
<http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=youtube.com%2fTheGovernment+investigate
s&view=detail&mid=F4AA42E57BB00C9FEF64F4AA42E57BB00C9FEF64&FORM=VIRE>
&view=detail&mid=F4AA42E57BB00C9FEF64F4AA42E57BB00C9FEF64&FORM=VIRE

 

spike

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170525/3ab29f4c/attachment.html>

From atymes at gmail.com  Thu May 25 23:03:46 2017
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Thu, 25 May 2017 16:03:46 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Trilemma of Consciousness
In-Reply-To: <cb24061ffad561364e6ff97cc20af47c.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
References: <cb24061ffad561364e6ff97cc20af47c.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNRBg61f_-1=NpcYf7W3h9wgmHsPE7at0KML9PwyYm5VeA@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, May 25, 2017 at 7:33 AM, Stuart LaForge <avant at sollegro.com> wrote:
> Axiom 1: Let F(n) be the nth computable function with n being an
> admissible numbering of all possible computable functions.
> Axiom 2: Let K be the subset of F(n) such that all K share a semantic
> property k.
> Definition 1: Let k be called trivial if all F(n) have property k.
> Definition 2. Let k be called null if no F(n) has property k.
> Axiom 3: Let Dt be the decision problem as to whether a given F(n) belongs
> in K.
>
> Theorem: By axioms 1-3, definitions 1-2, and Rice's Theorem, Dt is
> decidable if, and only if, k is trivial or null.

Counterproof:

Let k be, "Given the numbering in use, is n > 1?"  (This is only null
if n is at most 1, though in that case all ks will be either trivial
or null anyway.)  This appears to be computable.

Let n be some integer greater than 1.  (I am assuming the numberings
only considers integer numberings starting with 1, but this proof
works with only slight modification to the examples if not.)

k is neither trivial (since F(1) does not have this property) nor null
(since F(2) has this property, as are others if n > 2).

However, Dt is decidable: F(1) is not in K.  The rest, which consists
of at least F(2), are in K.


From col.hales at gmail.com  Fri May 26 02:05:06 2017
From: col.hales at gmail.com (Colin Hales)
Date: Fri, 26 May 2017 12:05:06 +1000
Subject: [ExI] Trilemma of Consciousness
In-Reply-To: <cb24061ffad561364e6ff97cc20af47c.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
References: <cb24061ffad561364e6ff97cc20af47c.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
Message-ID: <CAGHyZJn=WA8TKm6kUW85bRgvqGWjVHhd6DzbFWxFKF7B7mNWrA@mail.gmail.com>

See below.

On Fri, May 26, 2017 at 12:33 AM, Stuart LaForge <avant at sollegro.com> wrote:

> Some of you might remember my mathematical musings on the computability of
> consciousness linked to here:
> http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/2016-December/091135.html
> http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/2017-January/091224.html
>
> My idle boast of being able to easily prove the undecidability of the
> generalized Turing test based on Russell's paradox was premature as I was
> thwarted by the funny fact that modern set theory has two additional
> axioms specifically designed to disallow Russell's Paradox. You can read
> about that here:
> https://proofwiki.org/wiki/Russell's_Paradox
>
> So despite the zombie detector being intuitively true, I was unable to
> prove it rigorously using set theory. So I had change my tact completely.
> Here is the latest sketch of my proof:
>
> Theorem: Consciousness can only be one of the following: 1. a property of
> all Turing machines, 2. an undecidable property of some Turing machines,
> or 3. not a property of Turing machines at all.
>
> Proof
>
> Axiom 1: Let F(n) be the nth computable function with n being an
> admissible numbering of all possible computable functions.
> Axiom 2: Let K be the subset of F(n) such that all K share a semantic
> property k.
> Definition 1: Let k be called trivial if all F(n) have property k.
> Definition 2. Let k be called null if no F(n) has property k.
> Axiom 3: Let Dt be the decision problem as to whether a given F(n) belongs
> in K.
>
> Theorem: By axioms 1-3, definitions 1-2, and Rice's Theorem, Dt is
> decidable if, and only if, k is trivial or null.
>
> Corallary: The set K of conscious functions is noncomputable.
>
> Q.E.D.
>
> In other words, the generalized Turing test is decidable IFF all computer
> programs are conscious or none are. Or equivalently, the GTT is
> noncomputable.
>
> Thoughts, anyone?
>
> Stuart LaForge
>
>
>
Consciousness is completely missing from current set theory. It can be
added. But I don't have the maths skill to sort it out formally. I wrote
this up in my book. Perhaps you have the math skill?

I'll hand it over ... maybe you can make some progress.

Consciousness is about the 1st-person perspective. In set theoretic terms
this means that whatever the mathematical treatment, it is all about

1) "Being" a subset X within a hosting set U (A class of sets to be
discovered)
then
2) Finding out, based on the relationship between set members within U, a
way of characterising how everything that is NOT-X might 'appear' (whatever
that means in set theoretic terms) to X from within U. That 'view' is
completely inaccessible except from the perspective of being X, inside U.

Nothing in set theory ever formally looks at this. It's a completely green
field.

Answer this question: What must the kind U of set members and relations
between U set members (or groups of) such that there's an identifiable
class of set U that might result in it being 'like something' to be X
within U.

NOTE 1: Important aspect. Once identified, a computer-based
numerical/symbolic exploration, of this new "X within U being like
something" aspect of set theory, is a valid scientific exploration of the
nature of consciousness. However, it is NOT an instance of consciousness.

NOTE 2: Whatever that class of U is, our universe is a member of that class
of sets. This is an empirical fact: proved by the existence of an observer
(us humans) as empirically proved by the existence of science, and in
particular the science of consciousness.

NOTE 3: The facts of the situation in NOTE 1 does not entail that U cannot
be classed computation.The regularity in U is obviously validly interpreted
as computation. NOTE 1 says that a _computer_ exploration of U is only
that. (Like a flight simulator is not an instance of flight).

HINT1: In this new class of set (and I suspect this is a very special kind
of set) where 'it being like something from within' can result, the
relations that are the origins of consciousness are that of "aggregate
_virtual_ set membership". That is, collections (populations within X, part
of X) can 'act as if' other set members (within NOT-X) exist that don't
actually exist. X can 'paint a view of NOT-X. In that act, NOT-X becomes
'visible'. Whatever 'view' of NOT-X this provides to X, real causal
relations between the fine-structured set U members means that the virtual
construct within X inherits a kind of 'virtual causality', where future
(actions) are taken based on the 'appearances' experienced by X, and
there's no actual obvious link because the only entity with access to 'why'
is X.

HINT 2: Success and Empirical Proof.
To empirically prove you've succeeded all you need to do is come up with an
X within U that predicts what X looks like to another member of kind X, say
Y. In humans, Y would look at X and see specific kinds of electromagnetism
in the brain. That is, to another Y within U looking at X in the act of
having consciousness delivered to X, it looks like brain electromagnetism.
Why electromagnetism? It's the only thing to choose that has been proved
100% correlated to consciousness for the entire era that science has
examined the origins of consciousness. 'Being' electromagnetism (behaving
in a certain way) delivers a 1st person perspective. somehow.. something
that is amenable to this new set-theoretical treatment.
=======================

I don't have the time or the skill to do this new set theory. But I'm
working out how to build it, which needs no theory, just knowledge of how
the brain does it with electromagnetism. I can build that.

Somebody has to do this new part of set theory.

Off you go. Just put me in the acknowledgements. :-) Remember me when you
get your Nobel prize.

cheers
colin
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170526/3c1387c6/attachment.html>

From johnkclark at gmail.com  Fri May 26 17:12:12 2017
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Fri, 26 May 2017 13:12:12 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Trilemma of Consciousness
In-Reply-To: <cb24061ffad561364e6ff97cc20af47c.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
References: <cb24061ffad561364e6ff97cc20af47c.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv1L_4kRreymVuZeBr+HHBF2o0JQDH3epLM+jVTG-sQC4w@mail.gmail.com>

I have a few comments:
?
1) Strictly speaking the Turing? Test is a test for intelligence not
consciousness, although until AI started making big gains nearly everybody
made the unspoken assumption that the two were linked, but now many want to
believe that carbon atoms are conscious but silicon atoms are not.

2)  The Turing Test has nothing to do with Turing Machines, the test is
agnostic as to how the subject manages to produce the observed behavior,
it's irrelevant.

3) The Turing Test is not a mathematical theorem that can be proved or
disproved, it
?'s?
a rule of thumb, it's just an acknowledgment that behavior is the only way
to judge the intelligence of others
?.?

?A?nd
 we can make mistakes and judge a stupid being as smart as in the character
of Chauncey Gardner in the movie "Being There"; another example would be
the millions of voters who judged Donald Trump to be smart back in
November. And of course it would be easy for a smart being to pretend to be
stupid and fool us. The test isn't perfect but it's all we have.

? John K Clark?
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170526/be80ef76/attachment.html>

From avant at sollegro.com  Fri May 26 22:42:30 2017
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Fri, 26 May 2017 15:42:30 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Trilemma of Consciousness
Message-ID: <bdff9ce7b19e67e50f1bf54eecc6ef8b.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>

>On Thu, May 25, 2017 at 7:33 AM, Stuart LaForge <avant at sollegro.com>
wrote:
>> Axiom 1: Let F(n) be the nth computable function with n being an
>> admissible numbering of all possible computable functions.
>> Axiom 2: Let K be the subset of F(n) such that all K share a semantic
>> property k.
>> Definition 1: Let k be called trivial if all F(n) have property k.
>> Definition 2. Let k be called null if no F(n) has property k.
>> Axiom 3: Let Dt be the decision problem as to whether a given F(n) belongs
>> in K.
>>
>> Theorem: By axioms 1-3, definitions 1-2, and Rice's Theorem, Dt is
>> decidable if, and only if, k is trivial or null.

I made an error above in Axiom 1. It should read

Axiom 1: Let F(n) be the nth partial computable function with n being an
admissible numbering of all possible partial computable functions.

Adrian Tymes wrote:

>Counterproof:
>
>Let k be, "Given the numbering in use, is n > 1?"  (This is only null
>if n is at most 1, though in that case all ks will be either trivial
>or null anyway.)  This appears to be computable.

Well by definition of an "admissable numbering", n must be computable. But
"is n > 1?" does not qualify as a *semantic* property of a partial
computable function as per Axiom 2.

Since my understanding of a semantic property of a function is one related
to "meaning" that manifests in the behavior of the function. For example,
"always halts on any input" would be a semantic property.

If "is n > 1?" were a semantic property of F(n), then F(n) would have to
reference n somewhere in the function for it to influence the behavior of
that function. That means that "is n > 1?" would be a syntactical property
of F(n) as well.

But in such a case, F(n) would then violate Axiom 1 because F(n) would no
longer be an indexed list of all possible partial computable functions but
would instead be a list restricted to functions that explicitly referenced
their own indices. Therefore, my theorem and Rice's also, would no longer
apply.

>Let n be some integer greater than 1.  (I am assuming the numberings
>only considers integer numberings starting with 1, but this proof
>works with only slight modification to the examples if not.)
>
>k is neither trivial (since F(1) does not have this property) nor null
>(since F(2) has this property, as are others if n > 2).
>
>However, Dt is decidable: F(1) is not in K.  The rest, which consists
>of at least F(2), are in K.

Your counter-proof only holds if given an infinite list of all possible
partial computable functions F indexed on n, n is a semantic property of
F(n). Can you prove that? It seems to me to be more like some kind of meta
property.

Stuart LaForge




From avant at sollegro.com  Fri May 26 23:32:27 2017
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Fri, 26 May 2017 16:32:27 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Trilemma of Consciousness
Message-ID: <375d090358d5903a7d548b186af22642.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>

Colin Hales wrote:

>Consciousness is completely missing from current set theory. It can be
>added. But I don't have the maths skill to sort it out formally. I wrote
>this up in my book. Perhaps you have the math skill?

I agree with you that set theory done right could help explain
consciousness. But like you, I don't know if I have the ability, time, or
credentials to fix ZFC set theory.

I do appreciate the notes. I still need time to digest them, then I will
get back to you on them. Maybe this would be a good collaboration for us.

>I don't have the time or the skill to do this new set theory. But I'm
>working out how to build it, which needs no theory, just knowledge of how
>the brain does it with electromagnetism. I can build that.
>Somebody has to do this new part of set theory.
>
>Off you go. Just put me in the acknowledgements. :-)

I will do better than that, Colin. If you ever want to spend a weekend
losing money in Reno, shoot me an email and I will buy you a beer at the
local pub. :-)

Stuart LaForge




From johnkclark at gmail.com  Sat May 27 02:53:21 2017
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Fri, 26 May 2017 22:53:21 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Trump's approval ratings - Nate Silver
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYe4mvMPB91dAak3KnUPh=BY5kyPOtOYd3imXiQPc1kYQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYe4mvMPB91dAak3KnUPh=BY5kyPOtOYd3imXiQPc1kYQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv1TaoCcioJ0w2zgFQ8dVDhnKdt+aQNB1i4Q7MTsm2EOdw@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, May 25, 2017 at 4:14 PM, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
wrote:

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/donald-trumps-base-
> is-shrinking/?utm_source=pocket&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=pockethits
>

The news just broke that after the election but before he took office
Trump's most trusted advisor, his son in law Jared Kushner,  wanted to send
? ?
a
??
message to the Kremlin
? ?
without the government of the US knowing about it and so tried
? ?
to
? ?
talk
? ?
the Russians
? ?
in
??
to
?letting?
? ?
him use the cryptographic machines in the Russian embassy. I swear I am not
making this up!
? ?
Seriously I'm not kidding. There are only 2 possibilities, either this was
jaw
? ?
droppingly
? ?
stupid even by Trump's very low standards or it was jaw droppingly
? ?
stupid and treasonous
?.
?
 John K Clark





>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170526/db53c378/attachment.html>

From atymes at gmail.com  Sat May 27 08:12:29 2017
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sat, 27 May 2017 01:12:29 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Trilemma of Consciousness
In-Reply-To: <bdff9ce7b19e67e50f1bf54eecc6ef8b.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
References: <bdff9ce7b19e67e50f1bf54eecc6ef8b.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNQR_9zqGjPFh+yHnyMk0a0s-Y95-B+4tums0ss3jT4UKA@mail.gmail.com>

>>> Axiom 1: Let F(n) be the nth computable function with n being an
>>> admissible numbering of all possible computable functions.
>>> Axiom 2: Let K be the subset of F(n) such that all K share a semantic
>>> property k.
>>> Definition 1: Let k be called trivial if all F(n) have property k.
>>> Definition 2. Let k be called null if no F(n) has property k.
>>> Axiom 3: Let Dt be the decision problem as to whether a given F(n) belongs
>>> in K.
>>>
>>> Theorem: By axioms 1-3, definitions 1-2, and Rice's Theorem, Dt is
>>> decidable if, and only if, k is trivial or null.
>
> I made an error above in Axiom 1. It should read
>
> Axiom 1: Let F(n) be the nth partial computable function with n being an
> admissible numbering of all possible partial computable functions.

> Since my understanding of a semantic property of a function is one related
> to "meaning" that manifests in the behavior of the function. For example,
> "always halts on any input" would be a semantic property.

Fair enough.  But in that case, given
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rice%27s_theorem , your theorem would
seem to be true by definition, almost a circular proof:
* From the article, "Rice's theorem states that all non-trivial,
semantic properties of programs are undecidable."
* The union of what you call "trivial" and what you call "null" is
what the article calls "trivial".
* You appear to be using the same definition of "semantic property".
* Because these properties are undecidable (according to Rice's
Theorem), they are undecidable.


From johnkclark at gmail.com  Sat May 27 13:50:09 2017
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sat, 27 May 2017 09:50:09 -0400
Subject: [ExI] clarification
In-Reply-To: <015f01d2d595$788940b0$699bc210$@att.net>
References: <015f01d2d595$788940b0$699bc210$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv10AXrPkXeqpa-6Zu_tqmYfOec8LE2kWje9raQmzpiH-w@mail.gmail.com>

I wonder if there is a single person on the face of the Earth that
sincerely
?believes ?
Trump's stated reason for firing FBI director James Comey
? is true?
, namely that
?Comey?
 was too mean to Hillary Clinton. When it's 3am and they can't sleep
doesn't the thought cross the mind of even the most ardent Trump supporter
that
? ?
maybe just maybe there was another reason for the president
? ?
doing what he did
??

  John K Clark?



On Thu, May 25, 2017 at 4:28 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

>
>
>
>
>
>
> For our British and other friends outside the USA, a clarification of what
> the US government is doing currently:
>
>
>
> http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=youtube.com%
> 2fTheGovernment+investigates&view=detail&mid=
> F4AA42E57BB00C9FEF64F4AA42E57BB00C9FEF64&FORM=VIRE
>
>
>
> spike
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170527/69d9bdee/attachment.html>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sat May 27 14:08:03 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sat, 27 May 2017 09:08:03 -0500
Subject: [ExI] clarification
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv10AXrPkXeqpa-6Zu_tqmYfOec8LE2kWje9raQmzpiH-w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <015f01d2d595$788940b0$699bc210$@att.net>
 <CAJPayv10AXrPkXeqpa-6Zu_tqmYfOec8LE2kWje9raQmzpiH-w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYhxM6PZZ+-qHzkMS36EcaAmZU9bYmUnNikecGP=YReQw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, May 27, 2017 at 8:50 AM, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

> I wonder if there is a single person on the face of the Earth that
> sincerely
> ?believes ?
> Trump's stated reason for firing FBI director James Comey
> ? is true?
> , namely that
> ?Comey?
>  was too mean to Hillary Clinton. When it's 3am and they can't sleep
> doesn't the thought cross the mind of even the most ardent Trump supporter
> that
> ? ?
> maybe just maybe there was another reason for the president
> ? ?
> doing what he did
> ??
>
>   John K Clark?
>
>

?I am beginning to think that Trump simply shoots from the hip. Maybe he
simply doesn't remember what he said last, or try to, and blurts out what
he thinks at the moment, which can be just about anything, logical or not.
That makes more sense to me than some other explanations.?

bill w

>
>
> On Thu, May 25, 2017 at 4:28 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> For our British and other friends outside the USA, a clarification of
>> what the US government is doing currently:
>>
>>
>>
>> http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=youtube.com%2fTheGovernm
>> ent+investigates&view=detail&mid=F4AA42E57BB00C9FEF64F4AA42
>> E57BB00C9FEF64&FORM=VIRE
>>
>>
>>
>> spike
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170527/4e8c2b7d/attachment.html>

From avant at sollegro.com  Sat May 27 14:25:31 2017
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Sat, 27 May 2017 07:25:31 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Trilemma of Consciousness
Message-ID: <66af61bc6bf16d14a643dc8c6416de18.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>

John Clark wrote:
?
>1) Strictly speaking the Turing? Test is a test for intelligence not
>consciousness, although until AI started making big gains nearly everybody
>made the unspoken assumption that the two were linked, but now many want to
>believe that carbon atoms are conscious but silicon atoms are not.

Yeah, your definitely right about this. From the context of biology, it
started back in the Darwin days. As people realized that animals could be
smart too, they started raising the bar from intelligence to consciousness
without really defining either,

>2)  The Turing Test has nothing to do with Turing Machines, the test is
>agnostic as to how the subject manages to produce the observed behavior,
>it's irrelevant.

Yes. That is why I call it the generalized Turing test (GTT) to
distinguish it from the historical Turing test which started out as a
party game for participants to guess the sex of opposing players through
typewritten notes to one another. I could just as easily called it the
generalized Voight-Kampff test but as much I am a fan of Phillip K Dick,
that bloke Turing did save us all from Nazism.

>3) The Turing Test is not a mathematical theorem that can be proved or
>disproved, it's a rule of thumb, it's just an acknowledgment that
behavior >is the only way to judge the intelligence of others.?

Yes. I have done neither. I have instead framed it as a decision problem
and bounded its results. Behavior is indeed all that matters, but it
doesn't hurt to thank the vacuum cleaner too. After all, purpose is a
semantic property also.

?>A?nd we can make mistakes and judge a stupid being as smart as in the
>character of Chauncey Gardner in the movie "Being There"; another example
>would be the millions of voters who judged Donald Trump to be smart back
in
>November. And of course it would be easy for a smart being to pretend to be
>stupid and fool us. The test isn't perfect but it's all we have.

And all we'll need . . . I hope. :-)

Stuart LaForge





From avant at sollegro.com  Sat May 27 14:42:53 2017
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Sat, 27 May 2017 07:42:53 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Trilemma of Consciousness
Message-ID: <419669487fbb6ac38b6c1ac14f69f0c8.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>

>>> Axiom 1: Let F(n) be the nth partial computable function with n being an
>>> admissible numbering of all possible partial computable functions.
>>> Axiom 2: Let K be the subset of F(n) such that all K share a semantic
>>> property k.
>>> Definition 1: Let k be called trivial if all F(n) have property k.
>>> Definition 2. Let k be called null if no F(n) has property k.
>>> Axiom 3: Let Dt be the decision problem as to whether a given F(n)
belongs
>>> in K.
>>>
>>> Theorem: By axioms 1-3, definitions 1-2, and Rice's Theorem, Dt is
>>> decidable if, and only if, k is trivial or null.

>> Since my understanding of a semantic property of a function is one related
>> to "meaning" that manifests in the behavior of the function. For example,
>> "always halts on any input" would be a semantic property.

Adrian Tymes wrote:

> Fair enough.  But in that case, given
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rice%27s_theorem , your theorem would
> seem to be true by definition, almost a circular proof:
> * From the article, "Rice's theorem states that all non-trivial,
> semantic properties of programs are undecidable."
> * The union of what you call "trivial" and what you call "null" is
> what the article calls "trivial".
> * You appear to be using the same definition of "semantic property".
> * Because these properties are undecidable (according to Rice's
> Theorem), they are undecidable.

Yes. Guilty as charged. I let Rice do all the heavy lifting, but I also
cited him right in the middle of my proof. What more do you want?

Stuart LaForge




From sen.otaku at gmail.com  Sat May 27 15:17:28 2017
From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard)
Date: Sat, 27 May 2017 10:17:28 -0500
Subject: [ExI] bug eating again, was: RE: tabby's star dimming again
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEbYJ21chi3SK9fChTU7OFkrRHyKRi2Od0oBVhOmVc05Rg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <009a01d2d57a$722b9170$5682b450$@att.net>
 <CAL_armga2ozQrXKk-n_tDEAgtSNXu_+wzmL+Nifn2sTB0TURWQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEbYJ21chi3SK9fChTU7OFkrRHyKRi2Od0oBVhOmVc05Rg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABf9QbBOWRKEucL2w21a8hOfCgw5cAkErdsu5BP6pcSW8=qJcA@mail.gmail.com>

Being retro-actively grossed out by food to me is just silly. You ate
it, you liked it, you didn't die.

Mentally, why is it okay for some people to eat raw fish, but not raw horse?
Why, in America, do we eat pigs but not dogs?
Why, in America, are things like shrimp and eels food, but
grasshoppers and snakes are "weird"?

It's just cultural, really. There are plenty of places in the world
that eat wood grubs. The idea kind of freaks me out, but that's
probably because I've never eaten it. Some people freak out about
pork, and not for religious reasons either. In Japan, for example,
eating fruit skins is horrifying. That includes grape skins!

Culture is weird. I admit I would feel some type of way if I were
trying to eat an eyeball, but I'd try anything else as long as you
didn't tell me what it was first. IMO it's better to try food then
find out what it is, so that your preconceptions about food don't
override reality.


From spike66 at att.net  Sat May 27 15:27:46 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sat, 27 May 2017 08:27:46 -0700
Subject: [ExI] clarification
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv10AXrPkXeqpa-6Zu_tqmYfOec8LE2kWje9raQmzpiH-w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <015f01d2d595$788940b0$699bc210$@att.net>
 <CAJPayv10AXrPkXeqpa-6Zu_tqmYfOec8LE2kWje9raQmzpiH-w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00f801d2d6fd$cb7b4890$6271d9b0$@att.net>

 

 

From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of John Clark



>?stated reason for firing FBI director James ?Comey? ? too mean to Hillary Clinton. ?  John K Clark?

 

 

I am finding all of this most entertaining.

 

I am wondering how CNN is going to handle their reporting of the Steele dossier.  Wednesday they reported former FBI director Comey was fooled by a fake Russian intelligence dossier regarding the tarmac meeting between then JD chief Lynch and Mr. Clinton.  Two days later, yesterday, CNN reports Comey knew the documents were fake.  Which?

 

All this gets so 1984-ish.  In our own times, it appears that private communications are mostly behind us and that real political power comes from finding ways to communicate secretly.  We can anticipate the time when it becomes illegal to do so.

 

spike

 

 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170527/22535c0e/attachment.html>

From spike66 at att.net  Sat May 27 15:38:48 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sat, 27 May 2017 08:38:48 -0700
Subject: [ExI] bug eating again, was: RE: tabby's star dimming again
In-Reply-To: <CABf9QbBOWRKEucL2w21a8hOfCgw5cAkErdsu5BP6pcSW8=qJcA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <009a01d2d57a$722b9170$5682b450$@att.net>
 <CAL_armga2ozQrXKk-n_tDEAgtSNXu_+wzmL+Nifn2sTB0TURWQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEbYJ21chi3SK9fChTU7OFkrRHyKRi2Od0oBVhOmVc05Rg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABf9QbBOWRKEucL2w21a8hOfCgw5cAkErdsu5BP6pcSW8=qJcA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <010101d2d6ff$56487780$02d96680$@att.net>


>... On Behalf Of SR Ballard
Subject: Re: [ExI] bug eating again, was: RE: tabby's star dimming again

>...Being retro-actively grossed out by food to me is just silly. You ate
it, you liked it, you didn't die.
...
>...Culture is weird. I admit I would feel some type of way if I were trying
to eat an eyeball, but I'd try anything else as long as you didn't tell me
what it was first. IMO it's better to try food then find out what it is, so
that your preconceptions about food don't override reality.
_______________________________________________



There is a trick to it, one I will share.

On several occasions I have been called upon to share some specialized
culture's food.  Good example Vietnamese party food.  They have all kinds of
stuff you are better off know knowing, but many of my friends and neighbors
are Vietnamese expatriates.

When anticipating such an event, go about three or four days beforehand to a
low or nearly zero-fat high fiber diet, bland if possible, white rice, white
bread, bran, potatoes (no butter) that sort of thing, green leafy vegetables
but nothing zippy, sufficient calories but little or no fat.  Then on party
day, eeeeeverything looks tasty, irregardful of what it is or was.  People
like it when the local white guy eats their cultural delicacies.

Once one devours some revolting delicacy and it doesn't cause gastronomic
distress, the process somehow resets the mechanism that grosses one
outwardly.  It works!

Even if you don't have a party, I recommend you try at some point the super
low fat temporary diet.  If you do it, you will gain insights on why so many
weight-loss programs fail.  Your instinct will overpower your will power. 

spike



From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sat May 27 16:11:14 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sat, 27 May 2017 11:11:14 -0500
Subject: [ExI] clarification
In-Reply-To: <00f801d2d6fd$cb7b4890$6271d9b0$@att.net>
References: <015f01d2d595$788940b0$699bc210$@att.net>
 <CAJPayv10AXrPkXeqpa-6Zu_tqmYfOec8LE2kWje9raQmzpiH-w@mail.gmail.com>
 <00f801d2d6fd$cb7b4890$6271d9b0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYCmKBA-9zpbSr2aE_BPX+a7drkonb_Ends9EXSL3o=YA@mail.gmail.com>

finding ways to communicate secretly.  We can anticipate the time when it
becomes illegal to do so.



spike


As if they could stay ahead of the hackers.  Ha.  bill w

On Sat, May 27, 2017 at 10:27 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *From:* extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] *On
> Behalf Of *John Clark
>
> >?stated reason for firing FBI director James ?Comey? ? too mean to
> Hillary Clinton. ?  John K Clark?
>
>
>
>
>
> I am finding all of this most entertaining.
>
>
>
> I am wondering how CNN is going to handle their reporting of the Steele
> dossier.  Wednesday they reported former FBI director Comey was fooled by a
> fake Russian intelligence dossier regarding the tarmac meeting between then
> JD chief Lynch and Mr. Clinton.  Two days later, yesterday, CNN reports
> Comey knew the documents were fake.  Which?
>
>
>
> All this gets so 1984-ish.  In our own times, it appears that private
> communications are mostly behind us and that real political power comes
> from finding ways to communicate secretly.  We can anticipate the time when
> it becomes illegal to do so.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170527/8e88580b/attachment.html>

From johnkclark at gmail.com  Sat May 27 16:18:22 2017
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sat, 27 May 2017 12:18:22 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Trilemma of Consciousness
In-Reply-To: <66af61bc6bf16d14a643dc8c6416de18.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
References: <66af61bc6bf16d14a643dc8c6416de18.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv2Nzpu08LUPaM3_oLPfC2ufaNesV1wZcYOv_aa0G2CQBQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, May 27, 2017 at 10:25 AM, Stuart LaForge <avant at sollegro.com> wrote:


> ?> ?
> it
> ? ?
> started back in the Darwin days. As people realized that animals could be
> smart too,


?And after reading Darwin the obvious question to ask is "Evolution can't
directly detect consciousness any better than I can and yet I know for a
fact it managed to produce it at least once, how did it do that?". The only
answer is that consciousness is a unavoidable byproduct of intelligent
behavior. I think "consciousness is the way data feels like when it is
being processed" is a brute fact so it is pointless to ask how or why.


> ?> ?
> they started raising the bar from intelligence to consciousness
> ? ?
> without really defining either
>

?But they had something far far better than definitions, examples. We all
have billions of examples of intelligence and one example of consciousness.
 ?


>
> The Turing Test has nothing to do with Turing Machines, the test is
>> ? ?
>> agnostic as to how the subject manages to produce the observed behavior,
>> ? ?
>> it's irrelevant.
>
>
> ?> ?
> Yes. That is why I call it the generalized Turing test (GTT) to
> ? ?
> distinguish it from the historical Turing test


?
I don't understand, are you saying the
? ?
historical Turing test
? ?
will work for consciousness as well as intelligence, or are you proposing
some new test that could distinguish between a
? ?
intelligent conscious being and a intelligent
? ?
non-conscious being? If so then Evolution must have used that test too, but
then it must be based on behavior because
?behavior is?
 what improves survival chances not consciousness, but if it's based on
behavior then it's just the standard vanilla
? ?
Turing Test.

Consciousness theories are a dime a dozen because unlike intelligence
theories there is no way to prove or disprove any of them, so I have no
doubt one of those theories could be used to make a consciousness test fine
tuned
? ?
to make sure humans passed
? ?
it
? ?
but
? ?
computers
?
didn't (such as consciousness theory#93,642: conscious beings must be
squishy)
? ?
but there would be no reason to think
? ?
the theory was
? ?
correct
? ?
or that
? ?
the test actually worked.

John K Clark




>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170527/ea524f5c/attachment.html>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sat May 27 16:22:36 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sat, 27 May 2017 11:22:36 -0500
Subject: [ExI] bug eating again, was: RE: tabby's star dimming again
In-Reply-To: <010101d2d6ff$56487780$02d96680$@att.net>
References: <009a01d2d57a$722b9170$5682b450$@att.net>
 <CAL_armga2ozQrXKk-n_tDEAgtSNXu_+wzmL+Nifn2sTB0TURWQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEbYJ21chi3SK9fChTU7OFkrRHyKRi2Od0oBVhOmVc05Rg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABf9QbBOWRKEucL2w21a8hOfCgw5cAkErdsu5BP6pcSW8=qJcA@mail.gmail.com>
 <010101d2d6ff$56487780$02d96680$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZ1qboCOtZHcJ+zVgwTBXTN3x8JvjfB9-73ciBagktJDA@mail.gmail.com>

In Japan, for example,
eating fruit skins is horrifying. That includes grape skins!  spike


Now I thought the Japanese would eat anything, even things trying to crawl
off their plate.


ARRRRGGGGGGGHHHHHHH - Spike, please consider not using the word 'instinct'
around me.  It upsets my stomach.  Or - define it.  Now you would not want
to be using words you can't define, do you?  No.  (Using synonyms is a
cop-out)


If I had to eat things that gross me out, I would.  Since I don't, I
won't.  I am perfectly happy with the awesome, incredible selection that
faces me at Kroger and Walmart, thank you very much.  Them furriners will
just have to stay unhappy that I won't eat their foods.

-------------

----------you will gain insights on why so many
weight-loss programs fail.  Your instinct will overpower your will power.
 spike
-------
Now Spike, you are right, of course.  But consider:  obese Ss were put on a
starvation diet.  Hunger went away and stayed away after three days.  Hard
to do?  Yes.  Impossible?  Not at all.  If you can outlast a headache you
can outlast hunger.  It does go away after a while.

Will power is another term that defies definition.


bill w

On Sat, May 27, 2017 at 10:38 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

>
> >... On Behalf Of SR Ballard
> Subject: Re: [ExI] bug eating again, was: RE: tabby's star dimming again
>
> >...Being retro-actively grossed out by food to me is just silly. You ate
> it, you liked it, you didn't die.
> ...
> >...Culture is weird. I admit I would feel some type of way if I were
> trying
> to eat an eyeball, but I'd try anything else as long as you didn't tell me
> what it was first. IMO it's better to try food then find out what it is, so
> that your preconceptions about food don't override reality.
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
> There is a trick to it, one I will share.
>
> On several occasions I have been called upon to share some specialized
> culture's food.  Good example Vietnamese party food.  They have all kinds
> of
> stuff you are better off know knowing, but many of my friends and neighbors
> are Vietnamese expatriates.
>
> When anticipating such an event, go about three or four days beforehand to
> a
> low or nearly zero-fat high fiber diet, bland if possible, white rice,
> white
> bread, bran, potatoes (no butter) that sort of thing, green leafy
> vegetables
> but nothing zippy, sufficient calories but little or no fat.  Then on party
> day, eeeeeverything looks tasty, irregardful of what it is or was.  People
> like it when the local white guy eats their cultural delicacies.
>
> Once one devours some revolting delicacy and it doesn't cause gastronomic
> distress, the process somehow resets the mechanism that grosses one
> outwardly.  It works!
>
> Even if you don't have a party, I recommend you try at some point the super
> low fat temporary diet.  If you do it, you will gain insights on why so
> many
> weight-loss programs fail.  Your instinct will overpower your will power.
>
> spike
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170527/cf40a044/attachment.html>

From pharos at gmail.com  Sat May 27 16:47:46 2017
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sat, 27 May 2017 17:47:46 +0100
Subject: [ExI] clarification
In-Reply-To: <00f801d2d6fd$cb7b4890$6271d9b0$@att.net>
References: <015f01d2d595$788940b0$699bc210$@att.net>
 <CAJPayv10AXrPkXeqpa-6Zu_tqmYfOec8LE2kWje9raQmzpiH-w@mail.gmail.com>
 <00f801d2d6fd$cb7b4890$6271d9b0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAL_armh4PU9BOdWqq92Lx6khkC+u0JXv+gNEWc6rgGG0pCdAzQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 27 May 2017 at 16:27, spike wrote:
> I am wondering how CNN is going to handle their reporting of the Steele
> dossier.  Wednesday they reported former FBI director Comey was fooled by a
> fake Russian intelligence dossier regarding the tarmac meeting between then
> JD chief Lynch and Mr. Clinton.  Two days later, yesterday, CNN reports
> Comey knew the documents were fake.  Which?
>
> All this gets so 1984-ish.  In our own times, it appears that private
> communications are mostly behind us and that real political power comes from
> finding ways to communicate secretly.  We can anticipate the time when it
> becomes illegal to do so.
>

It already is sort of illegal. Border Control can demand passwords to
all your electronic devices, phones, laptops, etc. And demand that you
decrypt any encrypted files or partitions that they find. Apparently
they normally keep a copy of your files and disk drives and passwords.
(Just in case, you know....).
Laws in other countries may differ, but nowadays the terrorism threat
allows officials to do almost anything once you are defined as
'suspicious'. And being uncooperative automatically makes you
'suspicious'.
I suppose that not having a smartphone or laptop at all makes you
REALLY suspicious.  :)

BillK


From johnkclark at gmail.com  Sat May 27 16:57:47 2017
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sat, 27 May 2017 12:57:47 -0400
Subject: [ExI] clarification
In-Reply-To: <00f801d2d6fd$cb7b4890$6271d9b0$@att.net>
References: <015f01d2d595$788940b0$699bc210$@att.net>
 <CAJPayv10AXrPkXeqpa-6Zu_tqmYfOec8LE2kWje9raQmzpiH-w@mail.gmail.com>
 <00f801d2d6fd$cb7b4890$6271d9b0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv25maA-wqg5Ph2bd-AByTXNhaDM6FBred0sgoXWG=1ZKg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, May 27, 2017 at 11:27 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

?> ?
> I am finding all of this most entertaining.
>
>
?Me too, although if I were writing a spy novel I'd never write about the
presadent's ?son in law and chief advisor wanting to use the encryption
machines in the Russian embassy in Washington to send a message to the
Kremlin because he didn't want US intelligence agencies to know what he was
saying to that foreign government, because such a plot would just be too
ridiculous. And I certainly wouldn't have that character in my novel retain
his top secret security clearance even after the facts of his treason
became public, a book that dumb would never sell.



> ?> ?
> I am wondering how CNN is going to handle their reporting of the Steele
> dossier.
>
>
?If its true with rubber gloves and bleach.?



> ?> ?
> Wednesday they reported former FBI director Comey was fooled by a fake
> Russian intelligence dossier regarding the tarmac meeting between then JD
> chief Lynch and Mr. Clinton.  Two days later, yesterday, CNN reports Comey
> knew the documents were fake.  Which?
>
>
?I confess I don't quite understand that either, but we should know in a
few days, Comey is supposed to testify in open session to congress.

John K Clark?
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170527/f807020d/attachment.html>

From spike66 at att.net  Sat May 27 17:02:10 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sat, 27 May 2017 10:02:10 -0700
Subject: [ExI] secrecy is power, was:  RE:  clarification
Message-ID: <016501d2d70a$fe0019f0$fa004dd0$@att.net>


>... On Behalf Of BillK
Subject: Re: [ExI] clarification

On 27 May 2017 at 16:27, spike wrote:
...
>
>>... All this gets so 1984-ish.  In our own times, it appears that private 
> communications are mostly behind us and that real political power 
> comes from finding ways to communicate secretly.  We can anticipate 
> the time when it becomes illegal to do so.
>

>...It already is sort of illegal. Border Control can demand passwords to
all your electronic devices, phones, laptops, etc. And demand that you
decrypt any encrypted files or partitions that they find... not having a
smartphone or laptop at all makes you REALLY suspicious.  :)

BillK
_______________________________________________



My 10 yr old son and his friend in his 5th grade class were writing software
to do Caesar cyphers.  I demonstrated how easily I can crack their codes if
it is simple substitution, with a few lines of VBA script.  So they tried to
outsmart the old man by making the space a character, so you have 27
subsitutions.  That kinda works for those who get good at cryptoquips: a
skilled player can eventually almost read a cryptoquip.  Making the space a
character makes it harder to do that.  But, you can still crack it easily
enough by finding the periods and commas, and seeing what character follows
it.  Also you can use the ETAOIN SHRDLU algorithm.  So again I cracked all
their codes, and could still do it once they started spelling out "comma"
and "period" and "dash" or if they used all punctuation and numbers in their
substitution algorithm.

Then I taught them how to do a simplified version of public key encryption.
I couldn't crack those.  

Then they were told by their teacher that it is against the rules to put
encrypted messages on their classroom email system...

{8-[

Oy.  This worries me in that it gets the students accustomed to the notion
that secret communication is illegal.

spike



From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sat May 27 17:55:52 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sat, 27 May 2017 12:55:52 -0500
Subject: [ExI] clarification
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv25maA-wqg5Ph2bd-AByTXNhaDM6FBred0sgoXWG=1ZKg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <015f01d2d595$788940b0$699bc210$@att.net>
 <CAJPayv10AXrPkXeqpa-6Zu_tqmYfOec8LE2kWje9raQmzpiH-w@mail.gmail.com>
 <00f801d2d6fd$cb7b4890$6271d9b0$@att.net>
 <CAJPayv25maA-wqg5Ph2bd-AByTXNhaDM6FBred0sgoXWG=1ZKg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZSTmm_cs79f_ZB6u4wg2qZ+LvWMtpnacE-JEs7PgxTKQ@mail.gmail.com>

billk  wrote:  It already is sort of illegal. Border Control can demand
passwords to
all your electronic devices, phones, laptops, etc. And demand that you
decrypt any encrypted files or partitions that they find. Apparently
they normally keep a copy of your files and disk drives and passwords.
(Just in case, you know....).


I
? did not know this.  I have to say that it needs a court challenge on the
basis of unreasonable search and seizure.  I also suppose that there is no
definition of 'suspicious' ?in any manual, so they can just define it any
way they want to.  Disturbing.

bill w

On Sat, May 27, 2017 at 11:57 AM, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sat, May 27, 2017 at 11:27 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>
> ?> ?
>> I am finding all of this most entertaining.
>>
>>
> ?Me too, although if I were writing a spy novel I'd never write about the
> presadent's ?son in law and chief advisor wanting to use the encryption
> machines in the Russian embassy in Washington to send a message to the
> Kremlin because he didn't want US intelligence agencies to know what he was
> saying to that foreign government, because such a plot would just be too
> ridiculous. And I certainly wouldn't have that character in my novel retain
> his top secret security clearance even after the facts of his treason
> became public, a book that dumb would never sell.
>
>
>
>> ?> ?
>> I am wondering how CNN is going to handle their reporting of the Steele
>> dossier.
>>
>>
> ?If its true with rubber gloves and bleach.?
>
>
>
>> ?> ?
>> Wednesday they reported former FBI director Comey was fooled by a fake
>> Russian intelligence dossier regarding the tarmac meeting between then JD
>> chief Lynch and Mr. Clinton.  Two days later, yesterday, CNN reports Comey
>> knew the documents were fake.  Which?
>>
>>
> ?I confess I don't quite understand that either, but we should know in a
> few days, Comey is supposed to testify in open session to congress.
>
> John K Clark?
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170527/92ec4f0c/attachment.html>

From atymes at gmail.com  Sat May 27 16:35:50 2017
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sat, 27 May 2017 09:35:50 -0700
Subject: [ExI] clarification
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv10AXrPkXeqpa-6Zu_tqmYfOec8LE2kWje9raQmzpiH-w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <015f01d2d595$788940b0$699bc210$@att.net>
 <CAJPayv10AXrPkXeqpa-6Zu_tqmYfOec8LE2kWje9raQmzpiH-w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNT3dyg73qPCQYFw+h_vz2=Qb8zgMttZcQZrDLp7xxa7oQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, May 27, 2017 at 6:50 AM, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:
> I wonder if there is a single person on the face of the Earth that sincerely
> believes
> Trump's stated reason for firing FBI director James Comey
> is true
> , namely that
> Comey
>  was too mean to Hillary Clinton. When it's 3am and they can't sleep doesn't
> the thought cross the mind of even the most ardent Trump supporter that
> maybe just maybe there was another reason for the president
> doing what he did
> ?

Sadly, yes to the first and no to the second.  His most ardent
supporters believe he has always been telling the truth about
everything.  Even the inauguration audience numbers.  They don't have
much coherent to say about the evidence to the contrary.


From pharos at gmail.com  Sat May 27 18:21:30 2017
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sat, 27 May 2017 19:21:30 +0100
Subject: [ExI] clarification
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEZSTmm_cs79f_ZB6u4wg2qZ+LvWMtpnacE-JEs7PgxTKQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <015f01d2d595$788940b0$699bc210$@att.net>
 <CAJPayv10AXrPkXeqpa-6Zu_tqmYfOec8LE2kWje9raQmzpiH-w@mail.gmail.com>
 <00f801d2d6fd$cb7b4890$6271d9b0$@att.net>
 <CAJPayv25maA-wqg5Ph2bd-AByTXNhaDM6FBred0sgoXWG=1ZKg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZSTmm_cs79f_ZB6u4wg2qZ+LvWMtpnacE-JEs7PgxTKQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armjVADyKC6PCT7iXFt9m84POOAnA--ULNHo+goZBJQ1c8w@mail.gmail.com>

On 27 May 2017 at 18:55, William Flynn Wallace wrote:
> I did not know this.  I have to say that it needs a court challenge on the
> basis of unreasonable search and seizure.  I also suppose that there is no
> definition of 'suspicious' in any manual, so they can just define it any way
> they want to.  Disturbing.
>

It is the USA Border Search Exemption that applies at international
borders, airports, etc.
(And under certain circumstances up to 100 miles inside the border).
It has already been through the Courts system.

BillK


From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sat May 27 18:41:49 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sat, 27 May 2017 13:41:49 -0500
Subject: [ExI] clarification
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armjVADyKC6PCT7iXFt9m84POOAnA--ULNHo+goZBJQ1c8w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <015f01d2d595$788940b0$699bc210$@att.net>
 <CAJPayv10AXrPkXeqpa-6Zu_tqmYfOec8LE2kWje9raQmzpiH-w@mail.gmail.com>
 <00f801d2d6fd$cb7b4890$6271d9b0$@att.net>
 <CAJPayv25maA-wqg5Ph2bd-AByTXNhaDM6FBred0sgoXWG=1ZKg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZSTmm_cs79f_ZB6u4wg2qZ+LvWMtpnacE-JEs7PgxTKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armjVADyKC6PCT7iXFt9m84POOAnA--ULNHo+goZBJQ1c8w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYKtx-LZJ26y1hFSSoAD3rEcbqOrT5CYCqsuFvPz9TiNQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, May 27, 2017 at 1:21 PM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:

> On 27 May 2017 at 18:55, William Flynn Wallace wrote:
> > I did not know this.  I have to say that it needs a court challenge on
> the
> > basis of unreasonable search and seizure.  I also suppose that there is
> no
> > definition of 'suspicious' in any manual, so they can just define it any
> way
> > they want to.  Disturbing.
> >
>
> It is the USA Border Search Exemption that applies at international
> borders, airports, etc.
> (And under certain circumstances up to 100 miles inside the border).
> It has already been through the Courts system.
>
> BillK
>

?Thanks.  I have to ask:  what about a company's proprietary information?
Just don't take it with you?  Also, if someone wanted to take illegal info
across a border, all they'd have to do is to research just who they stop,
and don't act or dress like them.  Al Qaeda would be stupid to send an Arab
looking person across with sensitive info on phones or laptops.  There's
always some way around any system and I assume that this policy slows
traffic quite a bit in some cases.?  bill w

> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170527/05870845/attachment.html>

From pharos at gmail.com  Sat May 27 19:28:11 2017
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sat, 27 May 2017 20:28:11 +0100
Subject: [ExI] clarification
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYKtx-LZJ26y1hFSSoAD3rEcbqOrT5CYCqsuFvPz9TiNQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <015f01d2d595$788940b0$699bc210$@att.net>
 <CAJPayv10AXrPkXeqpa-6Zu_tqmYfOec8LE2kWje9raQmzpiH-w@mail.gmail.com>
 <00f801d2d6fd$cb7b4890$6271d9b0$@att.net>
 <CAJPayv25maA-wqg5Ph2bd-AByTXNhaDM6FBred0sgoXWG=1ZKg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZSTmm_cs79f_ZB6u4wg2qZ+LvWMtpnacE-JEs7PgxTKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armjVADyKC6PCT7iXFt9m84POOAnA--ULNHo+goZBJQ1c8w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYKtx-LZJ26y1hFSSoAD3rEcbqOrT5CYCqsuFvPz9TiNQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armgn46M2Jb5i6qFNRyBy77aWpSsXZ25CD2QUw49NaSqjFw@mail.gmail.com>

On 27 May 2017 at 19:41, William Flynn Wallace  wrote:
> Thanks.  I have to ask:  what about a company's proprietary information?
> Just don't take it with you?  Also, if someone wanted to take illegal info
> across a border, all they'd have to do is to research just who they stop,
> and don't act or dress like them.  Al Qaeda would be stupid to send an Arab
> looking person across with sensitive info on phones or laptops.  There's
> always some way around any system and I assume that this policy slows
> traffic quite a bit in some cases.  bill w
>

The important factor is that even if Border Control let you pass
through, they are allowed to keep your devices for further
investigation and it may be a long time before you get them back. So
to be safe, you need to get a disposable phone and laptop, so that
your main devices remain safe at home. Some companies IT departments
may provide business travelers with these. Then make sure the
disposable devices contain the minimum data you need for your trip. No
social media apps, banking, emails, etc. unless you want strangers
trawling through your accounts. When you return IT will wipe the
devices to get rid of all the spyware, malware and viruses that have
been installed during your trip abroad.

Individual travelers are more at risk as they don't have a company IT
department looking after their security.

BillK


From spike66 at att.net  Sat May 27 19:25:51 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sat, 27 May 2017 12:25:51 -0700
Subject: [ExI] clarification
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYKtx-LZJ26y1hFSSoAD3rEcbqOrT5CYCqsuFvPz9TiNQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <015f01d2d595$788940b0$699bc210$@att.net>
 <CAJPayv10AXrPkXeqpa-6Zu_tqmYfOec8LE2kWje9raQmzpiH-w@mail.gmail.com>
 <00f801d2d6fd$cb7b4890$6271d9b0$@att.net>
 <CAJPayv25maA-wqg5Ph2bd-AByTXNhaDM6FBred0sgoXWG=1ZKg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZSTmm_cs79f_ZB6u4wg2qZ+LvWMtpnacE-JEs7PgxTKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armjVADyKC6PCT7iXFt9m84POOAnA--ULNHo+goZBJQ1c8w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYKtx-LZJ26y1hFSSoAD3rEcbqOrT5CYCqsuFvPz9TiNQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <003c01d2d71f$0e798a50$2b6c9ef0$@att.net>

 

 

>? On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace



 

>? Al Qaeda would be stupid to send an Arab looking person across with sensitive info on phones or laptops? bill w

 

 

It puzzles me that even after all this, the Presbyterians seem to have trouble recruiting northern European-looking people sufficiently dedicated to the cause to kill and die for it.  Guys like this are rare:

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/24/us/neo-nazi-roommate-murder.html?_r=0

 

This guy could have gone into so many places his Episcopalian brothers couldn?t easily go.  Let?s hope our luck holds and they continue to fail to recruit.

 

spike

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170527/1623add2/attachment.html>

From avant at sollegro.com  Sat May 27 19:43:31 2017
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Sat, 27 May 2017 12:43:31 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Trilemma of Consciousness
Message-ID: <6c1c040294d39d4732e40f225212a94d.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>

John Clark wrote:

?> And after reading Darwin the obvious question to ask is "Evolution can't
> directly detect consciousness any better than I can and yet I know for a
> fact it managed to produce it at least once, how did it do that?". The only
> answer is that consciousness is a unavoidable byproduct of intelligent
> behavior.

I am certain that consciousness and intelligence are correlated. After all
intelligence is a semantic property as well. But they might be seperable.
Like the stroke victim who is aware of everything going on around him but
lacks the motor control with which to express "intelligent behavior".

If one can be conscious but unable to behave intelligently (like the
aforementioned stroke victim), I don't think that it is impossible that
something could behave intelligently and not be conscious. Especially if
it were purposefully designed that way.

> I think "consciousness is the way data feels like when it is
> being processed" is a brute fact so it is pointless to ask how or why.

If you think that fact holds down to the level of a single bit flipping
its value, then you would belong to the "consciousness is trivial" 
school.

> The Turing Test has nothing to do with Turing Machines, the test is
> ? ?
> agnostic as to how the subject manages to produce the observed behavior,
> ? ?
> it's irrelevant.

Indeed, that is the way I first envisioned it using Russell's paradox.
That would have been a stronger result that would have applied to all
beings and not just Turing machines. But thank Zermello and Frankel for
screwing up set theory so that Russell's paradox is now off limits and I
am stuck with a result restricted to Turing machines.

> I don't understand, are you saying the
> historical Turing test
> will work for consciousness as well as intelligence, or are you proposing
> some new test that could distinguish between a
?> intelligent conscious being and a intelligent
> non-conscious being?

No, I am saying that the Turing test won't be conclusive for either
intelligence or consciousness with regard to Turing machines unless those
are all or nothing properties of Turing machines. In other words, you run
statistical analysis on the AI's behavior for consciousness, intelligence,
or both and hope your AI doesn't get caught in an infinite loop.


If so then Evolution must have used that test too, but
> then it must be based on behavior because
?> behavior is?
> what improves survival chances not consciousness, but if it's based on
> behavior then it's just the standard vanilla
> Turing Test.

What I am saying is that due to Rice's Theorem, any Turing-like test for
any semantic property (consciousness, intelligence, etc.) applied to a
Turing machine is reducible to the halting problem unless Turing machines
all share that property or are unable to possess that property. Meaning
that all you can rely upon is faith or behaviorial statistics and hope.

> Consciousness theories are a dime a dozen because unlike intelligence
> theories there is no way to prove or disprove any of them, so I have no
> doubt one of those theories could be used to make a consciousness test
>fine tuned to make sure humans passed it but computers didn't (such as
>consciousness theory#93,642: conscious beings must be squishy)

Well people who think that belong to the "consciousness is null" school.
Unfortunately my theorem does not rule that out either.
?
Stuart LaForge
 ?





From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sat May 27 21:07:05 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sat, 27 May 2017 16:07:05 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Trilemma of Consciousness
In-Reply-To: <6c1c040294d39d4732e40f225212a94d.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
References: <6c1c040294d39d4732e40f225212a94d.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbkgAc8ifTM4Q1sHKuJgP_cbPUKHccEb34oHYp3WNvgUA@mail.gmail.com>

Stuart wrote:  I don't think that it is impossible that
something could behave intelligently and not be conscious. Especially if
it were purposefully designed that way.
---------------------------------------
Trees react to their environment, sometimes releasing chemicals that tell
nearby trees of a disease or insect invasion, clearly an altruistic action
protecting their neighbors some of whom may be related.  Intelligent?
Maybe.  Conscious - not.

bill w

On Sat, May 27, 2017 at 2:43 PM, Stuart LaForge <avant at sollegro.com> wrote:

> John Clark wrote:
>
> ?> And after reading Darwin the obvious question to ask is "Evolution can't
> > directly detect consciousness any better than I can and yet I know for a
> > fact it managed to produce it at least once, how did it do that?". The
> only
> > answer is that consciousness is a unavoidable byproduct of intelligent
> > behavior.
>
> I am certain that consciousness and intelligence are correlated. After all
> intelligence is a semantic property as well. But they might be seperable.
> Like the stroke victim who is aware of everything going on around him but
> lacks the motor control with which to express "intelligent behavior".
>
> If one can be conscious but unable to behave intelligently (like the
> aforementioned stroke victim), I don't think that it is impossible that
> something could behave intelligently and not be conscious. Especially if
> it were purposefully designed that way.
>
> > I think "consciousness is the way data feels like when it is
> > being processed" is a brute fact so it is pointless to ask how or why.
>
> If you think that fact holds down to the level of a single bit flipping
> its value, then you would belong to the "consciousness is trivial"
> school.
>
> > The Turing Test has nothing to do with Turing Machines, the test is
> > ? ?
> > agnostic as to how the subject manages to produce the observed behavior,
> > ? ?
> > it's irrelevant.
>
> Indeed, that is the way I first envisioned it using Russell's paradox.
> That would have been a stronger result that would have applied to all
> beings and not just Turing machines. But thank Zermello and Frankel for
> screwing up set theory so that Russell's paradox is now off limits and I
> am stuck with a result restricted to Turing machines.
>
> > I don't understand, are you saying the
> > historical Turing test
> > will work for consciousness as well as intelligence, or are you proposing
> > some new test that could distinguish between a
> ?> intelligent conscious being and a intelligent
> > non-conscious being?
>
> No, I am saying that the Turing test won't be conclusive for either
> intelligence or consciousness with regard to Turing machines unless those
> are all or nothing properties of Turing machines. In other words, you run
> statistical analysis on the AI's behavior for consciousness, intelligence,
> or both and hope your AI doesn't get caught in an infinite loop.
>
>
> If so then Evolution must have used that test too, but
> > then it must be based on behavior because
> ?> behavior is?
> > what improves survival chances not consciousness, but if it's based on
> > behavior then it's just the standard vanilla
> > Turing Test.
>
> What I am saying is that due to Rice's Theorem, any Turing-like test for
> any semantic property (consciousness, intelligence, etc.) applied to a
> Turing machine is reducible to the halting problem unless Turing machines
> all share that property or are unable to possess that property. Meaning
> that all you can rely upon is faith or behaviorial statistics and hope.
>
> > Consciousness theories are a dime a dozen because unlike intelligence
> > theories there is no way to prove or disprove any of them, so I have no
> > doubt one of those theories could be used to make a consciousness test
> >fine tuned to make sure humans passed it but computers didn't (such as
> >consciousness theory#93,642: conscious beings must be squishy)
>
> Well people who think that belong to the "consciousness is null" school.
> Unfortunately my theorem does not rule that out either.
> ?
> Stuart LaForge
>  ?
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170527/bd6e7da6/attachment.html>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sat May 27 22:39:54 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sat, 27 May 2017 17:39:54 -0500
Subject: [ExI] death
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEY+ku=6c_ci9P9vKydU-8c0Ug0HWjwVeESudzoMJ6LNhQ@mail.gmail.com>

Greg Allman died at the age of 69.

A genius of sorts.  My favorite of the few pop stars of the early 70s that
I really liked.

bill/dad/ bill w
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170527/0a3653ed/attachment.html>

From johnkclark at gmail.com  Sat May 27 23:22:30 2017
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sat, 27 May 2017 19:22:30 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Trilemma of Consciousness
In-Reply-To: <6c1c040294d39d4732e40f225212a94d.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
References: <6c1c040294d39d4732e40f225212a94d.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv1z=Z4M9ouLXHTB6RJh6XbC9pgwuNTqRobJAscv7nMFnA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, May 27, 2017 at 3:43 PM, Stuart LaForge <avant at sollegro.com> wrote:

>
?> ?
> I am certain that consciousness and intelligence are correlated. After all
> intelligence is a semantic property as well. But they might be seperable.
> Like the stroke victim who is aware of everything going on around him but
> lacks the motor control with which to express "intelligent behavior".
>

?I?
intelligent behavior
? implies consciousness but the lack of ?
?I?
intelligent behavior
? does not imply a lack of consciousness or even a lack of intelligence;
Einstein may be awake and alert but just not prefer to say or write
anything at the moment and would rather just sit there and think. For all I
know rocks may be doing the same thing.



> ?> ?
> something could behave intelligently and not be conscious.


?Maybe. If true I could be the only conscious being in the universe and
maybe I am, but I sorta doubt it.?


?> ?
> If you think that fact holds down to the level of a single bit flipping
> ?
> its value, then you would belong to the "consciousness is trivial"
> ?
> school.
>

?Well, I do belong to the school that intelligence is a far harder nut to
crack than consciousness, and a much more interesting one too.   ?



> ?> ?
> I
> ?
> am stuck with a result restricted to Turing machines.
>

?That doesn't sound like much of a restriction to me. What intelligent
behavior ?can a non-Turing Machine perform that a Turing Machine can't?


> ?> ?
> I am saying that the Turing test won't be conclusive for either
> intelligence or consciousness


?I agree the Turing Test is not conclusive ?but it's all we've got and all
we'll ever have. There will always be ch
arlatan
?s ?who's only skill is the ability to fool people into thinking they are
smarter than they really are, and nobody will ever prove that rocks are
smart but shy, but one does the best one can with the tools at hand.

?> ?
> What I am saying is that due to Rice's Theorem, any Turing-like test for
> any semantic property (consciousness, intelligence, etc.) applied to a
> Turing machine is reducible to the halting problem


?Forget semantic, all problems period are reducible to a halting problem.
Sometimes the problem will halt, that is to say we'll find the answer,
sometimes it won't halt and our brain makes a judgement call and causes us
to become bored, so we give up, stop, and look for a different problem.
Maybe it's the wrong call, maybe 5 more seconds will produce the answer,
maybe 5 hours, maybe 5 billion years, maybe never. Turing tells us there is
no way to know.     ?


> >
>> ?> ?
>> consciousness theory#93,642: conscious beings must be squishy
>
>
> ?> ?
> Well people who think that belong to the "consciousness is null" school.
> Unfortunately my theorem does not rule that out either.
>

?Yep, that consciousness theory is as good (or bad) as any other
consciousness theory.?

?

 John K Clark?
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170527/cc0db56d/attachment.html>

From danust2012 at gmail.com  Sat May 27 23:27:52 2017
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Sat, 27 May 2017 16:27:52 -0700
Subject: [ExI] death
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEY+ku=6c_ci9P9vKydU-8c0Ug0HWjwVeESudzoMJ6LNhQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEY+ku=6c_ci9P9vKydU-8c0Ug0HWjwVeESudzoMJ6LNhQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <09E09AE8-6482-4D1F-AF09-EA37B0FA8F65@gmail.com>

Denis Johnson also belongs to the ages:

https://www.newyorker.com/books/page-turner/what-a-pair-of-lungs-denis-johnsons-ecstatic-american-voice/

Regards,

Dan
  Sample my Kindle books via:
http://author.to/DanUst


Regards,

Dan
  Sample my Kindle books via:
http://author.to/DanUst
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170527/f69bc906/attachment.html>

From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Sat May 27 20:41:33 2017
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Sat, 27 May 2017 13:41:33 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Der Spiegel on Trump
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB7WWR_xhmjXacLk8ynC-tNxDXpBGwH08XoFDaD8rn9HVQ@mail.gmail.com>

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/donald-trump-is-a-menace-to-the-world-opinion-a-1148471.html

I logged in and tried to comment but could not get it to work.  So you
guys get it.

Evolutionary Psychology is a relatively recent field.  It makes the
simple claim that psychological mechanisms and the resulting behaviors
are a product of evolution, no less than eyes, ears, and hands.
Humans, being social, have been selected for behaviors in groups that
improve the chances of their genes getting into the next generation.

Most of this evolution happened over the past few million years when
humans lived in bands or small tribes.  When those bands were faced
with bleak times due to drought or other causes, models indicate that
fighting was better for their genes.  In good times, fighting was
_not_ good for their genes.  One of the effects of a bleak future is
the expansion of xenophobic memes in the group.  Another is that
irrational people become attractive as leaders.

If this sounds familiar, it should.


Best wishes,

Keith


From johnkclark at gmail.com  Sun May 28 00:03:30 2017
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sat, 27 May 2017 20:03:30 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Google AI defeats human Go champion
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2f3iyoa-7eUNwrccjdu79jd=y2sqZHzg2S+=MO7gZ429w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAM5aL2f3iyoa-7eUNwrccjdu79jd=y2sqZHzg2S+=MO7gZ429w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv0eDq2XiP9RgrxzAL9YsULyXNe_0ncn_7FP5pOuGdr09Q@mail.gmail.com>

?
The last game was played today and Google's computer AlphaGo
?
beat
?
the world?s best player
? Go player 3 games to zero.

https://www.theverge.com/2017/5/27/15704088/alphago-ke-jie-game-3-result-retires-future
?

 John K Clark
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170527/af784f00/attachment.html>

From johnkclark at gmail.com  Sun May 28 01:21:30 2017
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sat, 27 May 2017 21:21:30 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Trilemma of Consciousness
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEbkgAc8ifTM4Q1sHKuJgP_cbPUKHccEb34oHYp3WNvgUA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6c1c040294d39d4732e40f225212a94d.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
 <CAO+xQEbkgAc8ifTM4Q1sHKuJgP_cbPUKHccEb34oHYp3WNvgUA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv1nbtxx89YULcivYphtKV0psLnCBvAEA88rkcAXrGtMVw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, May 27, 2017  William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:

?> ?
> Trees react to their environment, sometimes releasing chemicals that tell
> nearby trees of a disease or insect invasion, clearly an altruistic action
> protecting their neighbors some of whom may be related.  Intelligent?
> Maybe.  Conscious - not.
>

?I don't understand why so many people believe consciousness is harder to
achieve than intelligence. ?

?John K Clark?
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170527/23569b3e/attachment.html>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sun May 28 01:39:23 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sat, 27 May 2017 20:39:23 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Trilemma of Consciousness
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv1nbtxx89YULcivYphtKV0psLnCBvAEA88rkcAXrGtMVw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6c1c040294d39d4732e40f225212a94d.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
 <CAO+xQEbkgAc8ifTM4Q1sHKuJgP_cbPUKHccEb34oHYp3WNvgUA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1nbtxx89YULcivYphtKV0psLnCBvAEA88rkcAXrGtMVw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYqiTjgWCq2oPDbk-GQGbX+Zza3aES6mMXn2m=UfTtvbQ@mail.gmail.com>

?I don't understand why so many people believe consciousness is harder to
achieve than intelligence. ?

?John K Clark?


Maybe I missed something.  'Achieve' consciousness?  What does that even
mean?  In an AI, OK, got it.  In a person it makes utterly no sense.

Intelligence, depending on the definition, is not something that is
achieved.  Mainly genetic.  Learning millions of facts does not make us
smarter than encyclopedias.

If we could agree on some definition of consciousness, then we might be
able to program it, but not until then.

So - what characteristics define consciousness in an AI?  Step one.
Determine if an AI has those.  Step 2.  So it either does or it doesn't.
Of course then the battle starts as to whether the definition of
consciousness is correct, when an AI shows some but not all of the
characteristics.

In all of these discussions I have not seen a definition for people.  What
characteristics do we have to find to determine whether a person is
conscious?  Just someone tell me why we don't have to start here.

bill w

On Sat, May 27, 2017 at 8:21 PM, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sat, May 27, 2017  William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> ?> ?
>> Trees react to their environment, sometimes releasing chemicals that tell
>> nearby trees of a disease or insect invasion, clearly an altruistic action
>> protecting their neighbors some of whom may be related.  Intelligent?
>> Maybe.  Conscious - not.
>>
>
> ?I don't understand why so many people believe consciousness is harder to
> achieve than intelligence. ?
>
> ?John K Clark?
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170527/04042bb5/attachment.html>

From sen.otaku at gmail.com  Sun May 28 03:15:13 2017
From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard)
Date: Sat, 27 May 2017 22:15:13 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Effects of low/no calorie diets, was Re:  bug eating again
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEZ1qboCOtZHcJ+zVgwTBXTN3x8JvjfB9-73ciBagktJDA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <009a01d2d57a$722b9170$5682b450$@att.net>
 <CAL_armga2ozQrXKk-n_tDEAgtSNXu_+wzmL+Nifn2sTB0TURWQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEbYJ21chi3SK9fChTU7OFkrRHyKRi2Od0oBVhOmVc05Rg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABf9QbBOWRKEucL2w21a8hOfCgw5cAkErdsu5BP6pcSW8=qJcA@mail.gmail.com>
 <010101d2d6ff$56487780$02d96680$@att.net>
 <CAO+xQEZ1qboCOtZHcJ+zVgwTBXTN3x8JvjfB9-73ciBagktJDA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8D864E17-D0F7-4E4B-BD45-E0CA81C1D066@gmail.com>



> On May 27, 2017, at 11:22, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> ----------you will gain insights on why so many
> 
> weight-loss programs fail.  Your instinct will overpower your will power.  spike
> -------
> Now Spike, you are right, of course.  But consider:  obese Ss were put on a starvation diet.  Hunger went away and stayed away after three days.  Hard to do?  Yes.  Impossible?  Not at all.  If you can outlast a headache you can outlast hunger.  It does go away after a while.
> Will power is another term that defies definition.
> 
> 
> 
> bill w
> 

I think that hunger going away after the third day is greatly exaggerated. Hunger pangs and physical hunger go away, more or less, but the psychological aspects of hunger intensify. And it is the psychological component that tends to make people obese or morbidly obese.

If you are interested in some of the effects, psychologically speaking, of that mental hunger, I can very easily point you in the direction of quite informative, detailed, online discussions of the topic from laypersons engaging in this behavior. 

But if you've not experienced it very acutely recently, let me give a brief view: restlessness and distractability. A light, euphoric floating feeling like you are quite drunk that can easily turn to viscous irritation. An impulse to somewhat claw at the throat or mouth, as well as cupboards and the outside of fridges. Searching for photos of food or looking at and touching it but not eating. Imagining "food pornography" which is to say vividly imagining buying, cooking, playing, and consuming foods. Your sense of smell is drastically improved to the point you can sometimes tell when someone a long way off is eating or has recently eaten. Trouble sleeping. Tiredness. 

Now the increased sense of smell maybe a physical response, but all the others are probably primarily psychological, as if someone knows they will not be eating for a period of time, they can show up extremely quickly (think just 2-3 hours) whereas a person often needs longer than that to become hungry.

So sure, physical hunger may disappate, but psychological hunger becomes a driving fixation.

Beyond that, a fast, after the initial water and fecal weight is lost, in many people is about 1lb per day (more if extremely overweight). So a very heavy person would need to fast for quite a long time, which introduces many possible issues, such as: blood sugar, blood salts, ketones, blood pressure drops (fainting/partial black outs), anemia, etc.

Also, breaking a long fast like this by gorging on high-fat foods is a recipient for disaster. First of all, gorging is an appropriate term for how some will eat, consuming (possibly) mind boggling amounts of food. It is physically possible to bust your stomach from doing this, though not likely in a one time event. Secondly, you've been starving yourself, and your digestive system has quietly been shutting down shop. Eating a high volume of complex food is going to introduce extreme gastrointestinal distress, including but not limited to: vomiting, swelling of the abdomen, delayed gastric emptying, constipation/diarrhea, and flatulence, as well as cramping, which can be excruciating. 

But, more worryingly than that (which can be so serious that it can lead to hospitalization, and in extreme/rare cases even death), this obese person may have already had a messed up relationship with food, and have now been exposed to a very eating-disordered pattern (fasting and subsequent binging). Developing a full-blown eating disorder like bulimia would be much more detrimental to their health than being even moderately obese ever could have been.

-Sophia
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170527/455f2df9/attachment.html>

From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Sun May 28 04:05:34 2017
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Sat, 27 May 2017 21:05:34 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Gravity wave math
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB6FiyhJZU033iwJv_N7BvX_BySJepJWR=+Bius3SN0LmA@mail.gmail.com>

If you want someone serious to chew on:

http://www.ams.org/journals/bull/2016-53-04/S0273-0979-2016-01544-8/

"The emergence of gravitational wave science: 100 years of development
of mathematical theory, detectors, numerical algorithms, and data
analysis tools"


Authors: Michael Holst, Olivier Sarbach, Manuel Tiglio and Michele Vallisneri
Journal: Bull. Amer. Math. Soc. 53 (2016), 513-554

Full-text PDF Free Access

Abstract: On September 14, 2015, the newly upgraded Laser
Interferometer Gravitational-wave Observatory (LIGO) recorded a loud
gravitational-wave (GW) signal, emitted a billion light-years away by
a coalescing binary of two stellar-mass black holes. The detection was
announced in February 2016, in time for the hundredth anniversary of
Einstein's prediction of GWs within the theory of general relativity
(GR). The signal represents the first direct detection of GWs, the
first observation of a black-hole binary, and the first test of GR in
its strong-field, high-velocity, nonlinear regime. In the remainder of
its first observing run, LIGO observed two more signals from
black-hole binaries, one moderately loud, another at the boundary of
statistical significance. The detections mark the end of a
decades-long quest and the beginning of GW astronomy: finally, we are
able to probe the unseen, electromagnetically dark Universe by
listening to it. In this article, we present a short historical
overview of GW science: this young discipline combines GR, arguably
the crowning achievement of classical physics, with record-setting,
ultra-low-noise laser interferometry, and with some of the most
powerful developments in the theory of differential geometry, partial
differential equations, high-performance computation, numerical
analysis, signal processing, statistical inference, and data science.
Our emphasis is on the synergy between these disciplines and how
mathematics, broadly understood, has historically played, and
continues to play, a crucial role in the development of GW science. We
focus on black holes, which are very pure mathematical solutions of
Einstein's gravitational-field equations that are nevertheless
realized in Nature and that provided the first observed signals.

^^^^^^^^

The PDF is 42 pages.  It's not an easy read, but I think well worth it.

Keith

(Sorry for the duplicate post it has already been posted on the list.)


From spike66 at att.net  Sun May 28 13:23:38 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 28 May 2017 06:23:38 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Gravity wave math
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB6FiyhJZU033iwJv_N7BvX_BySJepJWR=+Bius3SN0LmA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB6FiyhJZU033iwJv_N7BvX_BySJepJWR=+Bius3SN0LmA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <002201d2d7b5$9f675f10$de361d30$@att.net>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf
Of Keith Henson
Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2017 9:06 PM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: [ExI] Gravity wave math

If you want someone serious to chew on:

http://www.ams.org/journals/bull/2016-53-04/S0273-0979-2016-01544-8/

"The emergence of gravitational wave science: 100 years of development of
mathematical theory, detectors, numerical algorithms, and data analysis
tools"

Thanks Keith!  I wasn't aware that Hilbert was right there doing that work.
It is easy to imagine Einstein sailing uncharted waters alone with General
Relativity, but there were others working that.

spike






From protokol2020 at gmail.com  Sun May 28 14:31:37 2017
From: protokol2020 at gmail.com (Tomaz Kristan)
Date: Sun, 28 May 2017 16:31:37 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Gravity wave math
In-Reply-To: <002201d2d7b5$9f675f10$de361d30$@att.net>
References: <CAPiwVB6FiyhJZU033iwJv_N7BvX_BySJepJWR=+Bius3SN0LmA@mail.gmail.com>
 <002201d2d7b5$9f675f10$de361d30$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CALMrAFR6X4vfH7ryYD5-6OvUtO7Dh-weTHeYA6WdM76VLttU8Q@mail.gmail.com>

I am sceptical. The first "strong observation" was on time for the 100th
anniversary, but we don't have the second one yet.

Just as we have 1 (one) "strong observation" for the Higgs.

I am not saying, that gravitational waves don't exist, or that Higgs' boson
doesn't exist.

But on the base of those observations, I can't claim that they do exist.
Those scientists have apparently no such problems. Their faith is strong
enough.

On Sun, May 28, 2017 at 3:23 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On
> Behalf
> Of Keith Henson
> Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2017 9:06 PM
> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Subject: [ExI] Gravity wave math
>
> If you want someone serious to chew on:
>
> http://www.ams.org/journals/bull/2016-53-04/S0273-0979-2016-01544-8/
>
> "The emergence of gravitational wave science: 100 years of development of
> mathematical theory, detectors, numerical algorithms, and data analysis
> tools"
>
> Thanks Keith!  I wasn't aware that Hilbert was right there doing that work.
> It is easy to imagine Einstein sailing uncharted waters alone with General
> Relativity, but there were others working that.
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>



-- 
https://protokol2020.wordpress.com/
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170528/5c22efe8/attachment.html>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sun May 28 14:44:47 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sun, 28 May 2017 09:44:47 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Effects of low/no calorie diets, was Re: bug eating again
In-Reply-To: <8D864E17-D0F7-4E4B-BD45-E0CA81C1D066@gmail.com>
References: <009a01d2d57a$722b9170$5682b450$@att.net>
 <CAL_armga2ozQrXKk-n_tDEAgtSNXu_+wzmL+Nifn2sTB0TURWQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEbYJ21chi3SK9fChTU7OFkrRHyKRi2Od0oBVhOmVc05Rg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABf9QbBOWRKEucL2w21a8hOfCgw5cAkErdsu5BP6pcSW8=qJcA@mail.gmail.com>
 <010101d2d6ff$56487780$02d96680$@att.net>
 <CAO+xQEZ1qboCOtZHcJ+zVgwTBXTN3x8JvjfB9-73ciBagktJDA@mail.gmail.com>
 <8D864E17-D0F7-4E4B-BD45-E0CA81C1D066@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbdh4G-dZxrwTkWAEjQjGC53YzcjNZD678q-AffGUEZDg@mail.gmail.com>

Ballard wrote:
So sure, physical hunger may dissipate, but psychological hunger becomes a
driving fixation.

Very interesting!  I agree that total starvation is drastic.  I know of one
person who died trying this - in a hospital!  Here is a better way:

Hunger comes built-in, but over time and the right feeding it can become
classically conditioned a la Pavlov  The key is simply to feed a baby or a
person at any age, on a regular schedule.  I don't know what the current
recommendations are for babies, but feeding on a regular schedule would
mean that the baby will complain at the feeding times, and that will be
more convenient for the feeders.  At those times his hunger system will be
sending signals to eat at those times at which he was fed, anticipating
food.

To break this conditioning (extinction) means moving to an irregular
schedule.  Start eating between meals - no, not cookies!  A salad, say, or
an apple.  Very gradually cut down the amount of food at meals.  Then
gradually move to a random schedule.  Your body will stop expecting food at
the regular times and if you feel hungry it won't be a lot.  Some would
recommend eating more than three times a day - including me.  Some call
this grazing.

You will not feel a great deal of hunger and thus will not be urged to eat
a lot by your body.  When this is complete you might not even be able to
eat a big meal without feeling bloated.

Then you can gradually decrease the overall amount of food without feeling
deprived, physiologically or psychologically.  Pushbacks - from the table.

This might not be very convenient re family meals.  If you have big
sit-down meals, eat maybe 1/3 of a meal an hour earlier.  As Gargantua said
"Drink always before the thirst."  And it will never come upon you, or
words to that effect.  Same for food.

I have personally never had to go on a diet of any kind, so my
understanding of the emotional effects et al is poor.  But I have studied
dieting for nearly 50 years, and the above stands as my recommendation for
people who want to lose weight.  (Initially I wanted to understand why I
couldn't gain weight.)

I simply do not know why doctors won't prescribe Synthroid for dieters.  I
take an overdose because of a thyroid cancer and I never, ever feel
hungry.  Skipping a meal is just nothing to me.  I can eat a muffin in the
morning and nothing until 9 p.m. and then only a bowl of ice cream.  The
obese, with their high blood pressure and threat of diabetes, need to lose
weight and Synthroid would do it.  Far safer than staying obese, it seems
to me.

As for the food, high-fat, low carbs - Atkins, South Beach,
paleo.............No French fries ever!  Frying replaces the water in the
potato with oil - maybe the wrong kind too.

Did you know that vitamins like D3 and K2 need to be taken with fat?  I use
whole milk.

bill w



On Sat, May 27, 2017 at 10:15 PM, SR Ballard <sen.otaku at gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> On May 27, 2017, at 11:22, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
> ----------you will gain insights on why so many
> weight-loss programs fail.  Your instinct will overpower your will power.
>  spike
> -------
> Now Spike, you are right, of course.  But consider:  obese Ss were put on
> a starvation diet.  Hunger went away and stayed away after three days.
> Hard to do?  Yes.  Impossible?  Not at all.  If you can outlast a headache
> you can outlast hunger.  It does go away after a while.
>
> Will power is another term that defies definition.
>
>
> bill w
>
>
> I think that hunger going away after the third day is greatly exaggerated.
> Hunger pangs and physical hunger go away, more or less, but the
> psychological aspects of hunger intensify. And it is the psychological
> component that tends to make people obese or morbidly obese.
>
> If you are interested in some of the effects, psychologically speaking, of
> that mental hunger, I can very easily point you in the direction of quite
> informative, detailed, online discussions of the topic from laypersons
> engaging in this behavior.
>
> But if you've not experienced it very acutely recently, let me give a
> brief view: restlessness and distractability. A light, euphoric floating
> feeling like you are quite drunk that can easily turn to viscous
> irritation. An impulse to somewhat claw at the throat or mouth, as well as
> cupboards and the outside of fridges. Searching for photos of food or
> looking at and touching it but not eating. Imagining "food pornography"
> which is to say vividly imagining buying, cooking, playing, and consuming
> foods. Your sense of smell is drastically improved to the point you can
> sometimes tell when someone a long way off is eating or has recently eaten.
> Trouble sleeping. Tiredness.
>
> Now the increased sense of smell maybe a physical response, but all the
> others are probably primarily psychological, as if someone knows they will
> not be eating for a period of time, they can show up extremely quickly
> (think just 2-3 hours) whereas a person often needs longer than that to
> become hungry.
>
> So sure, physical hunger may disappate, but psychological hunger becomes a
> driving fixation.
>
> Beyond that, a fast, after the initial water and fecal weight is lost, in
> many people is about 1lb per day (more if extremely overweight). So a very
> heavy person would need to fast for quite a long time, which introduces
> many possible issues, such as: blood sugar, blood salts, ketones, blood
> pressure drops (fainting/partial black outs), anemia, etc.
>
> Also, breaking a long fast like this by gorging on high-fat foods is a
> recipient for disaster. First of all, gorging is an appropriate term for
> how some will eat, consuming (possibly) mind boggling amounts of food. It
> is physically possible to bust your stomach from doing this, though not
> likely in a one time event. Secondly, you've been starving yourself, and
> your digestive system has quietly been shutting down shop. Eating a high
> volume of complex food is going to introduce extreme gastrointestinal
> distress, including but not limited to: vomiting, swelling of the abdomen,
> delayed gastric emptying, constipation/diarrhea, and flatulence, as well as
> cramping, which can be excruciating.
>
> But, more worryingly than that (which can be so serious that it can lead
> to hospitalization, and in extreme/rare cases even death), this obese
> person may have already had a messed up relationship with food, and have
> now been exposed to a very eating-disordered pattern (fasting and
> subsequent binging). Developing a full-blown eating disorder like bulimia
> would be much more detrimental to their health than being even moderately
> obese ever could have been.
>
> -Sophia
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170528/af1e5373/attachment.html>

From bbenzai at yahoo.com  Sun May 28 17:13:08 2017
From: bbenzai at yahoo.com (Ben)
Date: Sun, 28 May 2017 18:13:08 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Effects of low/no calorie diets
In-Reply-To: <mailman.290.1495982724.5337.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.290.1495982724.5337.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <592B0524.5070002@yahoo.com>

There's a simple solution to this issue of losing weight, and I'd be 
surprised if most of us here don't already know of it:

A low-carb, high-fat diet.

It's not necessarity a low-calorie diet (although it easily can be), but 
it is a weight-reducing diet, or at least certailnly seems to be for 
most people. It definitely is for me. And no problems with hunger pangs, 
no relapsing because of a lack of will-power, in fact there's very 
llittle to no will-power required, once you get over the initial stage 
of quitting the huge amounts of carbs we habitually eat with a western diet.

One of the best things about it is that there's no risk of missing any 
vital nutrients. Carbohydrates, at least the refined ones we eat such a 
lot of, are virtually nutrient-free calories, and start turning straight 
into sugar as soon as you put them in your mouth.

The main thing stopping many more people adopting a diet like this, I 
think, is the fear instilled by that scoundrel Ancel Keys, and the 
decades-long campaign to vilify fat and cholesterol, leading to official 
advice to consume massive amounts of carbohydrates (which get turned 
straight into fat by the liver in an attempt to clear the blood of all 
that glucose).

I don't think it's an exaggeration to say that this is probably the root 
cause of the epidemic of obesity we're seeing today. If there's one 
thing that should be burned into the brains of nutritionists at all 
stages of their  education, it's this inverse relationship between 
dietary and body fat: Low-Fat, High-Carb diet -> High body fat. 
High-Fat, Low-Carb diet -> low body fat.


Ben Zaiboc


From bbenzai at yahoo.com  Sun May 28 17:14:43 2017
From: bbenzai at yahoo.com (Ben)
Date: Sun, 28 May 2017 18:14:43 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Trilemma of Consciousness
In-Reply-To: <mailman.290.1495982724.5337.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.290.1495982724.5337.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <592B0583.2080502@yahoo.com>

William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>

 > Maybe I missed something.  'Achieve' consciousness?  What does that 
even mean?
 > In an AI, OK, got it.  In a person it makes utterly no sense.


Well, depending on whether you make a distinction between 'conscious' 
and 'self-conscious' or not, I think it does make sense for a person. At 
least it does for me. I distinctly remember becoming conscious of being 
a conscious being.

The thought "Oh! I'm me!!" suddenly occurred to me at the age of about 
10, and it was like a mental explosion, a real revelation. I don't know 
if I could be described as being non-conscious before that moment, but I 
was certainly different after it, and in my book I 'achieved 
consciousness' in that moment.

It made a sufficient impression that I still clearly remember it decades 
later.


Ben Zaiboc


From spike66 at att.net  Sun May 28 18:17:02 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 28 May 2017 11:17:02 -0700
Subject: [ExI] test of icbm intercept
Message-ID: <00c101d2d7de$9b5c6180$d2152480$@att.net>

 

 

 

 

.On Friday, officials said the Pentagon will try to shoot down an
intercontinental-range missile for the first time in a test this week. The
goal is to more closely simulate a North Korean ICBM aimed at the U.S.
homeland, officials said.

North Korea is now the focus of U.S. efforts because its leader has vowed to
field a nuclear-armed missile capable of reaching American territory.

 

 

http://abcnews.go.com/International/pentagon-conduct-icbm-intercept-test/sto
ry?id=47667872

 

 

Shall we start a betting pool on whether the attempted intercept will hit
the target?

 

This is a fun one.  Back in the Reagan years, there were definite signs of
thawing of cold war rivalries.  By 1991, the US and the commies were
retiring nuclear missiles.  In that time frame I saw the first early
concepts of a ground-fired hit-to-kill vehicle.  This caused a huge debate
on whether the whole notion was in violation of existing ABM treaties.  The
way it was handled was to insist that it was really aimed against Iran, Iraq
and North Korea.  This debate was going on when the current Dear Leader was
age 7 years.

 

I remember the dark days of that program.  At first we never missed the
target, assuming the target was the ground.  Sometimes we went in circuitous
paths, but we hit that target every time.  I was on and off with that
program during the 1990s, but it was not much fun to work there until the
first successful intercept in about summer of 1999.  It was a much more
pleasant office after that first successful intercept.  The THAAD office was
widely considered a career graveyard back in the 1990s, but the controls
work was very interesting.  

 

Intercept tests since then are about 50% or so.  This is a harder test than
has ever been done.

 

Is this not remarkable?  The top military brass was already thinking about
how to deal with the Dear Leader and his offspring at least 26 yrs ago.  The
same think-tanks were extrapolating (both ours and the commies) realizing
that if the yanks work out hit-to-kill, we could eventually hit an ICBM,
which undermines the notion of Mutual Assured Destruction.  Tuesday we may
face a new peril: we might enter an era in which Russia and the US cannot
completely destroy each other.  How shall we cope?

 

>From a controls perspective, hitting an ICBM is one heeeeeelllll of a
difficult task.  Were I buying shares, I would pay about 30 cents.  Shall we
start a play-money version?  No software needed, just suggest a price, we
will see where they average out.  Assume you have about 100 shares I just
set the price to 30 cents.  Bettors, are you buying or selling?

 

The test is scheduled for Tuesday.  Good luck to the good guys!

 

spike

 

 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170528/4ae1bc7a/attachment.html>

From johnkclark at gmail.com  Sun May 28 22:22:31 2017
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sun, 28 May 2017 18:22:31 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Gravity wave math
In-Reply-To: <CALMrAFR6X4vfH7ryYD5-6OvUtO7Dh-weTHeYA6WdM76VLttU8Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB6FiyhJZU033iwJv_N7BvX_BySJepJWR=+Bius3SN0LmA@mail.gmail.com>
 <002201d2d7b5$9f675f10$de361d30$@att.net>
 <CALMrAFR6X4vfH7ryYD5-6OvUtO7Dh-weTHeYA6WdM76VLttU8Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv1nV6Cx-wOPmWFG1oEwTHiq_TmXDptyMC2a0pa4DEtxPw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, May 28, 2017 Tomaz Kristan <protokol2020 at gmail.com> wrote:

?> ?
> I am sceptical. The first "strong observation" was on time for the 100th
> anniversary, but we don't have the second one yet.
>

?Yes we do. The first confirmed gravitational wave event occurred on
September 14 2015, and the second occurred on December 26 2015. Both had a
sigma of 5.3. In addition there was a third event on October 12 2015 that
was probably yet another case of inspiraling black holes but that signal
was weaker than the other two and was short of 5 sigma that physicists need
to claim a discovery, for that one there was a 9% chance it was just noise
and that just isn't good enough.  5 sigma means there is only one chance in
3.5 million it was caused by random noise. All this happened during LIGO's
first observation run, the second run is happening right now but none of
the results have been released yet.

?> ?
> Just as we have 1 (one) "strong observation" for the Higgs.
>

In the case ?of the Higgs things were quite different, nobody has ever
directly observed a Higgs and nobody ever will, it's half life is far too
short for that, but you can observe the Higgs decay products and that is a
unique signature. But the experiment is very noisy so to find a signal
lurking in the noise, if there is one, you've got to run it many billions
of times and then do a statistical analysis with some of the largest
supercomputers in the world. Eventually after many months of colliding
protons and operating supercomputers they got to 5 sigma.

In contrast the September 14 2015 LIGO signal was so strong that in just
hours nearly all the scientists involved were convinced they'd found
colliding Black Holes, although they didn't say so publicly for about 6
months. There has been some criticism. justified I think, that they kept it
secret too long. I'll bet they've already found some cool stuff in the
second observing run that they won't talk about until they've finished
writing the journal paper.

John K Clark
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170528/544f0936/attachment.html>

From johnkclark at gmail.com  Sun May 28 23:28:34 2017
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sun, 28 May 2017 19:28:34 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Trilemma of Consciousness
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYqiTjgWCq2oPDbk-GQGbX+Zza3aES6mMXn2m=UfTtvbQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6c1c040294d39d4732e40f225212a94d.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
 <CAO+xQEbkgAc8ifTM4Q1sHKuJgP_cbPUKHccEb34oHYp3WNvgUA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1nbtxx89YULcivYphtKV0psLnCBvAEA88rkcAXrGtMVw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYqiTjgWCq2oPDbk-GQGbX+Zza3aES6mMXn2m=UfTtvbQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv04zJADQXTcd5b0FgzuCabpMc94=iTJEPfPQ0jY=g2vUQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, May 27, 2017  William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:

?
> >
> ?
> Maybe I missed something.  'Achieve' consciousness?  What does that even
> mean?
>

?It means making something that is conscious from something that is not. ?



> ?> ?
> In an AI, OK, got it.  In a person it makes utterly no sense.


?
We made the AI and Evolution made us, I don't see the problem. And Evolution
?
found it much easier to come up with feeling than the ability to
?
reason, it's certainly came up with it first. The most ancient part of the
brain, the spinal cord, the medulla and the pons is similar to the brain of
a fish or amphibian and
?
and is about  400 million years old,  it deals in aggressive behavior,
territoriality and social hierarchies.
?
The Limbic System is about 150 million years old
?
it
?
 is the source of awe and  exhilaration
?
and
?
is the active sight of many psychotropic drugs
?
. The amygdala, a part of the Limbic system has much to do with fear
?
and after some animals developed a Limbic system they started to take
?
care of their young, so it probably has something  to do with love too.

It is our grossly enlarged neocortex that makes the human brain so
unusual and so recent, it only started to get ridiculously large about 3
million years ago. It deals in deliberation, spatial perception, speaking,
reading, writing and mathematics, the one new emotion we got was worry,
probably because the neocortex is also the place where we plan for the
future.

If nature came up with feeling first and high level intelligence much
later, I don't see  why the opposite would be true for our computers. It's
probably a hell of a lot easier to make something that feels but doesn't
think than something that thinks but doesn't feel.

?
> >
> ?
> Intelligence, depending on the definition
>

?Definitions are of trivial importance, examples are not. ?



> ?> ?
> Learning millions of facts does not make us smarter than encyclopedias.
>

?Books don't behave intelligently because books can't compute.

?> ?
> If we could agree on some definition of consciousness, then we might be
> able to program it, but not until then.


?I have a definition of consciousness and there will never be a better one,
?
consciousness
? is the way John K Clark feels.?

?> ?
> So - what characteristics define consciousness in an AI?


?The same characteristics you use to infer consciousness to your fellow
human beings. ?



> ?
> >  What characteristics do we have to find to determine whether a person
> is conscious?
>

?Intelligent ?behavior of course, that's why I think somebody taking a
calculus exam is probably conscious but somebody sleeping or under
anesthesia
? or
 dead probably is not.

 John K Clark
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170528/cca03d2b/attachment.html>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sun May 28 23:49:12 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sun, 28 May 2017 18:49:12 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Trilemma of Consciousness
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEaeYaX4AmDt0MMKf73mQhqRWQwbWYgfPD42Oj7RrMFKNg@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks for the physiology refresher.

    What characteristics do we have to find to determine whether a person
is conscious?

?Intelligent ?behavior of course, that's why I think somebody taking a
calculus exam is probably conscious but somebody sleeping or under
anesthesia
? or
 dead probably is not.

 John K Clark

T
?ell me we are not going to have an infinite regress here.  Now we have to
define intelligent behavior.  My example of the tree communicating with
nearby trees was not tongue in cheek.  Doing something that may help your
species survive has to be intelligent behavior, no?  I can even see this as
altruistic since the tree gets nothing in return (signals from other trees
would do, but does the tree know that?)

Do we just hook up auditory, visual, olfactory etc. sensors and call what
the Ai gets through those sensations?  Why not.  Then we program it to
react in certain ways to certain stimuli and call those emotions, though
since each human is unique we will have to choose the reactions from a list
of possibles.  The AI might be programmed to love the Stooges but not Mark
Twain, for example.  Is this what is envisioned?  Will we program the AI to
share its experiences with other Ais?  Stimulus and response generalization
also will have to be programmed.

bill w?

On Sun, May 28, 2017 at 6:28 PM, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sat, May 27, 2017  William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> ?
>> >
>> ?
>> Maybe I missed something.  'Achieve' consciousness?  What does that even
>> mean?
>>
>
> ?It means making something that is conscious from something that is not. ?
>
>
>
>> ?> ?
>> In an AI, OK, got it.  In a person it makes utterly no sense.
>
>
> ?
> We made the AI and Evolution made us, I don't see the problem. And
> Evolution
> ?
> found it much easier to come up with feeling than the ability to
> ?
> reason, it's certainly came up with it first. The most ancient part of the
> brain, the spinal cord, the medulla and the pons is similar to the brain of
> a fish or amphibian and
> ?
> and is about  400 million years old,  it deals in aggressive behavior,
> territoriality and social hierarchies.
> ?
> The Limbic System is about 150 million years old
> ?
> it
> ?
>  is the source of awe and  exhilaration
> ?
> and
> ?
> is the active sight of many psychotropic drugs
> ?
> . The amygdala, a part of the Limbic system has much to do with fear
> ?
> and after some animals developed a Limbic system they started to take
> ?
> care of their young, so it probably has something  to do with love too.
>
> It is our grossly enlarged neocortex that makes the human brain so
> unusual and so recent, it only started to get ridiculously large about 3
> million years ago. It deals in deliberation, spatial perception, speaking,
> reading, writing and mathematics, the one new emotion we got was worry,
> probably because the neocortex is also the place where we plan for the
> future.
>
> If nature came up with feeling first and high level intelligence much
> later, I don't see  why the opposite would be true for our computers. It's
> probably a hell of a lot easier to make something that feels but doesn't
> think than something that thinks but doesn't feel.
>
> ?
>> >
>> ?
>> Intelligence, depending on the definition
>>
>
> ?Definitions are of trivial importance, examples are not. ?
>
>
>
>> ?> ?
>> Learning millions of facts does not make us smarter than encyclopedias.
>>
>
> ?Books don't behave intelligently because books can't compute.
>
> ?> ?
>> If we could agree on some definition of consciousness, then we might be
>> able to program it, but not until then.
>
>
> ?I have a definition of consciousness and there will never be a better
> one, ?
> consciousness
> ? is the way John K Clark feels.?
>
> ?> ?
>> So - what characteristics define consciousness in an AI?
>
>
> ?The same characteristics you use to infer consciousness to your fellow
> human beings. ?
>
>
>
>> ?
>> >  What characteristics do we have to find to determine whether a person
>> is conscious?
>>
>
> ?Intelligent ?behavior of course, that's why I think somebody taking a
> calculus exam is probably conscious but somebody sleeping or under
> anesthesia
> ? or
>  dead probably is not.
>
>  John K Clark
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170528/f2989cbd/attachment.html>

From spike66 at att.net  Mon May 29 02:55:27 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 28 May 2017 19:55:27 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Gravity wave math
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv1nV6Cx-wOPmWFG1oEwTHiq_TmXDptyMC2a0pa4DEtxPw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB6FiyhJZU033iwJv_N7BvX_BySJepJWR=+Bius3SN0LmA@mail.gmail.com>
 <002201d2d7b5$9f675f10$de361d30$@att.net>
 <CALMrAFR6X4vfH7ryYD5-6OvUtO7Dh-weTHeYA6WdM76VLttU8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1nV6Cx-wOPmWFG1oEwTHiq_TmXDptyMC2a0pa4DEtxPw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <009301d2d827$078226e0$168674a0$@att.net>

 

 

From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of John Clark
Sent: Sunday, May 28, 2017 3:23 PM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: Re: [ExI] Gravity wave math

 

?

 

>?In contrast the September 14 2015 LIGO signal was so strong that in just hours nearly all the scientists involved were convinced they'd found colliding Black Holes, although they didn't say so publicly for about 6 months. There has been some criticism. justified I think, that they kept it secret too long. I'll bet they've already found some cool stuff in the second observing run that they won't talk about until they've finished writing the journal paper?John K Clark

 

 

I cut them plenty of slack on this.  The thing hadn?t even been on but for a very short time.  Had I seen that signal, I would have said noooo way Jose, just no way.  It?s too much like buying exactly one lottery ticket, not even knowing how to play, never bought one before, just bought it as an afterthought, and it wins the big jackpot, and you are the only one to pick that number.  You would just say no, this just can?t be.  I have plenty of dreams that go like this, but reality never does, no way.  This signal must be a mistake.

 

Then consider they would be betting it all: their careers would be Pons/Fleishmanned down the toilet forever if they were wrong.  I would have waited all of 6 months, then when everyone agreed it was time to announce, I would fall on my knees and pray to nobody that we were right, and after I finished, I would pray that there was a god so I would have something or someone to pray to that the result was correct.

 

They did the right thing.  Besides that? it was exciting as all hell wasn?t it?  I remember being present when they presented up at Stanford, oooooohhhh what a time it was, what a time.

 

spike

 

 

 

 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170528/9c92eee6/attachment.html>

From protokol2020 at gmail.com  Mon May 29 12:34:58 2017
From: protokol2020 at gmail.com (Tomaz Kristan)
Date: Mon, 29 May 2017 14:34:58 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Gravity wave math
In-Reply-To: <009301d2d827$078226e0$168674a0$@att.net>
References: <CAPiwVB6FiyhJZU033iwJv_N7BvX_BySJepJWR=+Bius3SN0LmA@mail.gmail.com>
 <002201d2d7b5$9f675f10$de361d30$@att.net>
 <CALMrAFR6X4vfH7ryYD5-6OvUtO7Dh-weTHeYA6WdM76VLttU8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1nV6Cx-wOPmWFG1oEwTHiq_TmXDptyMC2a0pa4DEtxPw@mail.gmail.com>
 <009301d2d827$078226e0$168674a0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CALMrAFRWkHO_r9uPrmzp-THhtprM8k0kLvuvEi5ofQwAOdp0aw@mail.gmail.com>

> The first confirmed gravitational wave event occurred on September 14
2015, and the second occurred on December 26 2015. Both had a sigma of 5.3

A bacteria which has only been seen during a test phase of a microscope
operation - isn't real. Must be confirmed later under some stricter
circumstances.

On Mon, May 29, 2017 at 4:55 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *From:* extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] *On
> Behalf Of *John Clark
> *Sent:* Sunday, May 28, 2017 3:23 PM
> *To:* ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Gravity wave math
>
>
>
> ?
>
>
>
> >?In contrast the September 14 2015 LIGO signal was so strong that in just
> hours nearly all the scientists involved were convinced they'd found
> colliding Black Holes, although they didn't say so publicly for about 6
> months. There has been some criticism. justified I think, that they kept it
> secret too long. I'll bet they've already found some cool stuff in the
> second observing run that they won't talk about until they've finished
> writing the journal paper?John K Clark
>
>
>
>
>
> I cut them plenty of slack on this.  The thing hadn?t even been on but for
> a very short time.  Had I seen that signal, I would have said noooo way
> Jose, just no way.  It?s too much like buying exactly one lottery ticket,
> not even knowing how to play, never bought one before, just bought it as an
> afterthought, and it wins the big jackpot, and you are the only one to pick
> that number.  You would just say no, this just can?t be.  I have plenty of
> dreams that go like this, but reality never does, no way.  This signal must
> be a mistake.
>
>
>
> Then consider they would be betting it all: their careers would be
> Pons/Fleishmanned down the toilet forever if they were wrong.  I would have
> waited all of 6 months, then when everyone agreed it was time to announce,
> I would fall on my knees and pray to nobody that we were right, and after I
> finished, I would pray that there was a god so I would have something or
> someone to pray to that the result was correct.
>
>
>
> They did the right thing.  Besides that? it was exciting as all hell
> wasn?t it?  I remember being present when they presented up at Stanford,
> oooooohhhh what a time it was, what a time.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>


-- 
https://protokol2020.wordpress.com/
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170529/ecc67230/attachment.html>

From johnkclark at gmail.com  Mon May 29 14:18:20 2017
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Mon, 29 May 2017 10:18:20 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Gravity wave math
In-Reply-To: <009301d2d827$078226e0$168674a0$@att.net>
References: <CAPiwVB6FiyhJZU033iwJv_N7BvX_BySJepJWR=+Bius3SN0LmA@mail.gmail.com>
 <002201d2d7b5$9f675f10$de361d30$@att.net>
 <CALMrAFR6X4vfH7ryYD5-6OvUtO7Dh-weTHeYA6WdM76VLttU8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1nV6Cx-wOPmWFG1oEwTHiq_TmXDptyMC2a0pa4DEtxPw@mail.gmail.com>
 <009301d2d827$078226e0$168674a0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv3ZKmy7mFh00tMF4wUxKSq=TQF22e7S3O+phz=+4Rtfcw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, May 28, 2017 at 10:55 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

>
>> ?>?
>> ?In contrast the September 14 2015 LIGO signal was so strong that in just
>> hours nearly all the scientists involved were convinced they'd found
>> colliding Black Holes, although they didn't say so publicly for about 6
>> months. There has been some criticism. justified I think, that they kept it
>> secret too long. I'll bet they've already found some cool stuff in the
>> second observing run that they won't talk about until they've finished
>> writing the journal paper?John K Clark
>
>
> ?> ?
> I cut them plenty of slack on this.  The thing hadn?t even been on but for
> a very short time.  Had I seen that signal, I would have said noooo way
> Jose, just no way.  It?s too much like buying exactly one lottery ticket,
> not even knowing how to play, never bought one before, just bought it as an
> afterthought, and it wins the big jackpot, and you are the only one to pick
> that number.  You would just say no, this just can?t be.  I have plenty of
> dreams that go like this, but reality never does, no way.  This signal must
> be a mistake.
> Then consider they would be betting it all: their careers would be
> Pons/Fleishmanned down the toilet forever if they were wrong.
>

?
Yeah you're right.
? ?
I just finished reading a book "Gravity's Kiss" by Harry Collins that gives
a day by day account of the discovery and the time leading up to the
official announcement. They were all terrified of becoming the next Joseph
Weber, he was a respected physicist and back in the 1970s he claimed to
have found gravitational
? ?
waves but
? ?
was soon universally recognized as being wrong and Weber became a joke. So
before they
? ?
even
? ?
started looking the LIGO
? ?
people
? ?
set up a long protocol they would go through that checked and recheck the
statistics nineteen dozen different ways before they went public with
? ?
a discovery claim.
? ?
The protocol was
? ?
designed for a subtle signal deeply buried in the noise that had to be
carefully teased out,
? ?
but
? ?
the October 12 2015
? ?
event was HUGE,
? ?
it was
? far
 larger than anybody expected
? ?
and and there was nothing subtle about it
?;?
everybody knew immediately it was the real deal but the
? ?
bureaucracy said you had to go through the entire protocol
? ?
regardless
? ?
so they did.

And
? ?
I think there was another factor, they knew they wouldn't be scooped. If
there was a rival team with their own gravitational
? ?
wave detector somewhere I'll bet they would have run through that protocol
one hell of a lot faster.
?

 John K Clark?
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170529/200c12de/attachment.html>

From pharos at gmail.com  Mon May 29 14:53:35 2017
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Mon, 29 May 2017 15:53:35 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Gravity wave math
In-Reply-To: <CALMrAFR6X4vfH7ryYD5-6OvUtO7Dh-weTHeYA6WdM76VLttU8Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB6FiyhJZU033iwJv_N7BvX_BySJepJWR=+Bius3SN0LmA@mail.gmail.com>
 <002201d2d7b5$9f675f10$de361d30$@att.net>
 <CALMrAFR6X4vfH7ryYD5-6OvUtO7Dh-weTHeYA6WdM76VLttU8Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armhAqCN9K45AcTz6Qn16-VQLV-czC+Z7UvJ7J5av8ms5tw@mail.gmail.com>

On 28 May 2017 at 15:31, Tomaz Kristan wrote:
> I am sceptical. The first "strong observation" was on time for the 100th
> anniversary, but we don't have the second one yet.
>
> Just as we have 1 (one) "strong observation" for the Higgs.
>
> I am not saying, that gravitational waves don't exist, or that Higgs' boson
> doesn't exist.
>
> But on the base of those observations, I can't claim that they do exist.
> Those scientists have apparently no such problems. Their faith is strong
> enough.
>


More Higgs decay products detected.

<http://www.science20.com/tommaso_dorigo/boosted_hbb_decays_seen_by_cms-225112>
Quotes:
Tommaso Dorigo | May 29th 2017
The CMS collaboration at the CERN Large Hadron Collider has pulled off
an extremely neat new measurement of the Higgs boson production rate -
one which, for some reasons, is extraordinary in its own right.
--------------

'extraordinary' is definitely the word to use!

BillK


From johnkclark at gmail.com  Mon May 29 15:24:47 2017
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Mon, 29 May 2017 11:24:47 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Gravity wave math
In-Reply-To: <009301d2d827$078226e0$168674a0$@att.net>
References: <CAPiwVB6FiyhJZU033iwJv_N7BvX_BySJepJWR=+Bius3SN0LmA@mail.gmail.com>
 <002201d2d7b5$9f675f10$de361d30$@att.net>
 <CALMrAFR6X4vfH7ryYD5-6OvUtO7Dh-weTHeYA6WdM76VLttU8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1nV6Cx-wOPmWFG1oEwTHiq_TmXDptyMC2a0pa4DEtxPw@mail.gmail.com>
 <009301d2d827$078226e0$168674a0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv0=6fxFtd8qpc04Rww3_9zMxvjmaCKDAF1X8ABp95Ri4A@mail.gmail.com>

One thing I found mind boggling about the October 12 2015
?event?
 is that in a fraction of a second a amount of matter equivalent to 3
?suns?
 was converted entirely into energy, in this case into gravitational waves
?. By comparison the Hiroshima bomb converted less than the mass of a dime
into energy. ?A
nd yet spacetime is so stiff
?and it's so hard to deform that if you were in orbit around the Black Hole
collision site at the same distance the Earth is from the sun the
gravitational
waves would make your ears pop but that's about it. So how could LIGO
detect those waves from a distance of a billion light years? One reason is
that LIGO is so sensitive it can tell when the distance between 2 mirrors 4
kilometers apart changes by 1/10000 the width of a proton, the other reason
is LIGO detects the displacement the gravitational waves produce not their
energy as telescopes do with light, so the strength of the signal LIGO
detects decreases linearly with distance not as distance squared as with
electromagnetic detection. That means it can hear things far far away.

John K Clark   ?


>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170529/43df4ef8/attachment.html>

From protokol2020 at gmail.com  Mon May 29 15:32:42 2017
From: protokol2020 at gmail.com (Tomaz Kristan)
Date: Mon, 29 May 2017 17:32:42 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Gravity wave math
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv0=6fxFtd8qpc04Rww3_9zMxvjmaCKDAF1X8ABp95Ri4A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB6FiyhJZU033iwJv_N7BvX_BySJepJWR=+Bius3SN0LmA@mail.gmail.com>
 <002201d2d7b5$9f675f10$de361d30$@att.net>
 <CALMrAFR6X4vfH7ryYD5-6OvUtO7Dh-weTHeYA6WdM76VLttU8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1nV6Cx-wOPmWFG1oEwTHiq_TmXDptyMC2a0pa4DEtxPw@mail.gmail.com>
 <009301d2d827$078226e0$168674a0$@att.net>
 <CAJPayv0=6fxFtd8qpc04Rww3_9zMxvjmaCKDAF1X8ABp95Ri4A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALMrAFSPwM05CFohhkUofgvg0y7KyyruSdx25FR1S8sD0oq0LA@mail.gmail.com>

Well, John, you have predicted more detections for the current "production"
phase of LIGO. On this list, a year or so ago. I predicted none.

You may still bi right, but nothing has happened yet.

This 1/1000 of a proton width means nothing.

On Mon, May 29, 2017 at 5:24 PM, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

> One thing I found mind boggling about the October 12 2015
> ?event?
>  is that in a fraction of a second a amount of matter equivalent to 3
> ?suns?
>  was converted entirely into energy, in this case into gravitational waves
> ?. By comparison the Hiroshima bomb converted less than the mass of a dime
> into energy. ?A
> nd yet spacetime is so stiff
> ?and it's so hard to deform that if you were in orbit around the Black
> Hole collision site at the same distance the Earth is from the sun the
> gravitational
> waves would make your ears pop but that's about it. So how could LIGO
> detect those waves from a distance of a billion light years? One reason is
> that LIGO is so sensitive it can tell when the distance between 2 mirrors 4
> kilometers apart changes by 1/10000 the width of a proton, the other reason
> is LIGO detects the displacement the gravitational waves produce not their
> energy as telescopes do with light, so the strength of the signal LIGO
> detects decreases linearly with distance not as distance squared as with
> electromagnetic detection. That means it can hear things far far away.
>
> John K Clark   ?
>
>
>>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>


-- 
https://protokol2020.wordpress.com/
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170529/a45fdb55/attachment.html>

From johnkclark at gmail.com  Mon May 29 15:44:02 2017
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Mon, 29 May 2017 11:44:02 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Trilemma of Consciousness
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEaeYaX4AmDt0MMKf73mQhqRWQwbWYgfPD42Oj7RrMFKNg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaeYaX4AmDt0MMKf73mQhqRWQwbWYgfPD42Oj7RrMFKNg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv0aceWTKpGmCyw5BRhprfy1E92zAz-HnaxLc+_Usx2OXA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, May 28, 2017 at 7:49 PM, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
wrote:

?> ?
> Tell me we are not going to have an infinite regress here.  Now we have to
> define intelligent behavior.
>

?You're *ALWAYS* going to have ?
infinite regress
? if you insist on sticking with definitions. Definitions are made of
words, and all those words have their own definitions also made of words,
and on and on we go for infinity. That's why I say examples are far FAR
more important than definitions;
 intelligent behavior
?is what Einstein did and rocks didn't.?

 John K Clark
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170529/64dc37f3/attachment.html>

From spike66 at att.net  Mon May 29 15:32:20 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 29 May 2017 08:32:20 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Gravity wave math
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv0=6fxFtd8qpc04Rww3_9zMxvjmaCKDAF1X8ABp95Ri4A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB6FiyhJZU033iwJv_N7BvX_BySJepJWR=+Bius3SN0LmA@mail.gmail.com>
 <002201d2d7b5$9f675f10$de361d30$@att.net>
 <CALMrAFR6X4vfH7ryYD5-6OvUtO7Dh-weTHeYA6WdM76VLttU8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1nV6Cx-wOPmWFG1oEwTHiq_TmXDptyMC2a0pa4DEtxPw@mail.gmail.com>
 <009301d2d827$078226e0$168674a0$@att.net>
 <CAJPayv0=6fxFtd8qpc04Rww3_9zMxvjmaCKDAF1X8ABp95Ri4A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <005101d2d890$c3938180$4aba8480$@att.net>

 

 

From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of John Clark
Subject: Re: [ExI] Gravity wave math

 

>?One thing I found mind boggling about the October 12 2015 

?event? is that in a fraction of a second a amount of matter equivalent to 3 

?suns? was converted entirely into energy?

 

John K Clark   ?

 

 

 

There are so many mind-blowing aspects of the LIGO experiment, it is hard to wrap one?s head around it.  It is the WOW signal of our time.  spike

 

 

 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170529/0363ec93/attachment.html>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Mon May 29 15:49:10 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Mon, 29 May 2017 10:49:10 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Trilemma of Consciousness
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv0aceWTKpGmCyw5BRhprfy1E92zAz-HnaxLc+_Usx2OXA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaeYaX4AmDt0MMKf73mQhqRWQwbWYgfPD42Oj7RrMFKNg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv0aceWTKpGmCyw5BRhprfy1E92zAz-HnaxLc+_Usx2OXA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZOo9ixOACUif==Yc7uPUJWTK0foZvFhEC-s2Y6HJpH6g@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, May 29, 2017 at 10:44 AM, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sun, May 28, 2017 at 7:49 PM, William Flynn Wallace <
> foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> ?> ?
>> Tell me we are not going to have an infinite regress here.  Now we have
>> to define intelligent behavior.
>>
>
> ?You're *ALWAYS* going to have ?
> infinite regress
> ? if you insist on sticking with definitions. Definitions are made of
> words, and all those words have their own definitions also made of words,
> and on and on we go for infinity. That's why I say examples are far FAR
> more important than definitions;
>  intelligent behavior
> ?is what Einstein did and rocks didn't.?
>
>  John K Clark
>

?All very true, but the only example you will give is yourself for
consciousness.  Solipsistic.  We need examples that can be measured - ain't
science otherwise.

bill w?

>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170529/48514948/attachment.html>

From johnkclark at gmail.com  Mon May 29 15:56:44 2017
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Mon, 29 May 2017 11:56:44 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Gravity wave math
In-Reply-To: <CALMrAFSPwM05CFohhkUofgvg0y7KyyruSdx25FR1S8sD0oq0LA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB6FiyhJZU033iwJv_N7BvX_BySJepJWR=+Bius3SN0LmA@mail.gmail.com>
 <002201d2d7b5$9f675f10$de361d30$@att.net>
 <CALMrAFR6X4vfH7ryYD5-6OvUtO7Dh-weTHeYA6WdM76VLttU8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1nV6Cx-wOPmWFG1oEwTHiq_TmXDptyMC2a0pa4DEtxPw@mail.gmail.com>
 <009301d2d827$078226e0$168674a0$@att.net>
 <CAJPayv0=6fxFtd8qpc04Rww3_9zMxvjmaCKDAF1X8ABp95Ri4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALMrAFSPwM05CFohhkUofgvg0y7KyyruSdx25FR1S8sD0oq0LA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv3Fox6TC3zBHFts4+-kLi7snrrobAPkGvjsJmu6_7pbdQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, May 29, 2017 at 11:32 AM, Tomaz Kristan <protokol2020 at gmail.com>
wrote:

?> ?
> This 1/1000 of a proton width means nothing.
>

?It means a length 1/10000 (?

?not 1/1000) the diameter of a proton. ?Which word didn't you understand?

John K Clark




>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170529/1a45ec79/attachment.html>

From johnkclark at gmail.com  Mon May 29 16:10:29 2017
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Mon, 29 May 2017 12:10:29 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Trilemma of Consciousness
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEZOo9ixOACUif==Yc7uPUJWTK0foZvFhEC-s2Y6HJpH6g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaeYaX4AmDt0MMKf73mQhqRWQwbWYgfPD42Oj7RrMFKNg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv0aceWTKpGmCyw5BRhprfy1E92zAz-HnaxLc+_Usx2OXA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZOo9ixOACUif==Yc7uPUJWTK0foZvFhEC-s2Y6HJpH6g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv2fnjDjTZNfnk37XmKNU7rdtAK6CSA+0+PY5rBP3b7dKw@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, May 29, 2017 at 11:49 AM, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com
> wrote:

?
>> ?>> ?
>> You're *ALWAYS* going to have ?
>> infinite regress
>> ? if you insist on sticking with definitions. Definitions are made of
>> words, and all those words have their own definitions also made of words,
>> and on and on we go for infinity. That's why I say examples are far FAR
>> more important than definitions;
>>  intelligent behavior
>> ?is what Einstein did and rocks didn't.?
>>
>
> ?> ?
> ?All very true, but the only example you will give is yourself for
> consciousness.
>

?
That's because I only have one example of consciousness, I suspect you only
have one example too but It's logically possible
? ?
you have zero examples.

?> ?
> Solipsistic.
>

?Yes.?



> ?> ?
> We need examples that can be measured
>

?That would be nice, but it's never going to happen.?


> ?> ?
> - ain't science otherwise.
>

?
And that's why all the consciousness blather on the internet
? ?
ain't science. So forget consciousness theories and work on intelligence
theories.

? John K Clark ?
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170529/dfc05872/attachment.html>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Mon May 29 16:16:03 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Mon, 29 May 2017 11:16:03 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Trilemma of Consciousness
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv2fnjDjTZNfnk37XmKNU7rdtAK6CSA+0+PY5rBP3b7dKw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaeYaX4AmDt0MMKf73mQhqRWQwbWYgfPD42Oj7RrMFKNg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv0aceWTKpGmCyw5BRhprfy1E92zAz-HnaxLc+_Usx2OXA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZOo9ixOACUif==Yc7uPUJWTK0foZvFhEC-s2Y6HJpH6g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv2fnjDjTZNfnk37XmKNU7rdtAK6CSA+0+PY5rBP3b7dKw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYRSjb10S9hOav-6_fhFqhuKswGcadKH7dJooo2jNC5gA@mail.gmail.com>

. So forget consciousness theories and work on intelligence theories.

? John K Clark ?  deal  bill w

On Mon, May 29, 2017 at 11:10 AM, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mon, May 29, 2017 at 11:49 AM, William Flynn Wallace <
> foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> ?
>>> ?>> ?
>>> You're *ALWAYS* going to have ?
>>> infinite regress
>>> ? if you insist on sticking with definitions. Definitions are made of
>>> words, and all those words have their own definitions also made of words,
>>> and on and on we go for infinity. That's why I say examples are far FAR
>>> more important than definitions;
>>>  intelligent behavior
>>> ?is what Einstein did and rocks didn't.?
>>>
>>
>> ?> ?
>> ?All very true, but the only example you will give is yourself for
>> consciousness.
>>
>
> ?
> That's because I only have one example of consciousness, I suspect you
> only have one example too but It's logically possible
> ? ?
> you have zero examples.
>
> ?> ?
>> Solipsistic.
>>
>
> ?Yes.?
>
>
>
>> ?> ?
>> We need examples that can be measured
>>
>
> ?That would be nice, but it's never going to happen.?
>
>
>> ?> ?
>> - ain't science otherwise.
>>
>
> ?
> And that's why all the consciousness blather on the internet
> ? ?
> ain't science. So forget consciousness theories and work on intelligence
> theories.
>
> ? John K Clark ?
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170529/32852f8a/attachment.html>

From protokol2020 at gmail.com  Mon May 29 16:46:34 2017
From: protokol2020 at gmail.com (Tomaz Kristan)
Date: Mon, 29 May 2017 18:46:34 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Gravity wave math
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv3Fox6TC3zBHFts4+-kLi7snrrobAPkGvjsJmu6_7pbdQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB6FiyhJZU033iwJv_N7BvX_BySJepJWR=+Bius3SN0LmA@mail.gmail.com>
 <002201d2d7b5$9f675f10$de361d30$@att.net>
 <CALMrAFR6X4vfH7ryYD5-6OvUtO7Dh-weTHeYA6WdM76VLttU8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1nV6Cx-wOPmWFG1oEwTHiq_TmXDptyMC2a0pa4DEtxPw@mail.gmail.com>
 <009301d2d827$078226e0$168674a0$@att.net>
 <CAJPayv0=6fxFtd8qpc04Rww3_9zMxvjmaCKDAF1X8ABp95Ri4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALMrAFSPwM05CFohhkUofgvg0y7KyyruSdx25FR1S8sD0oq0LA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv3Fox6TC3zBHFts4+-kLi7snrrobAPkGvjsJmu6_7pbdQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALMrAFR8pivsAB=LVe76GC1sk7TCh-o94ZmLdPrZa-heuP2CeA@mail.gmail.com>

I understand the words, I don't understand the meaning.

So tiny dx doesn't sound very convincing to me. The odds for an error are
substantial.

In other words, some fancy data about the measurement equipment, does not
imply that the measurement was correct.

On Mon, May 29, 2017 at 5:56 PM, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mon, May 29, 2017 at 11:32 AM, Tomaz Kristan <protokol2020 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> ?> ?
>> This 1/1000 of a proton width means nothing.
>>
>
> ?It means a length 1/10000 (?
>
> ?not 1/1000) the diameter of a proton. ?Which word didn't you understand?
>
> John K Clark
>
>
>
>
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>


-- 
https://protokol2020.wordpress.com/
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170529/9eac486c/attachment.html>

From johnkclark at gmail.com  Mon May 29 17:11:03 2017
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Mon, 29 May 2017 13:11:03 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Gravity wave math
In-Reply-To: <CALMrAFR8pivsAB=LVe76GC1sk7TCh-o94ZmLdPrZa-heuP2CeA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB6FiyhJZU033iwJv_N7BvX_BySJepJWR=+Bius3SN0LmA@mail.gmail.com>
 <002201d2d7b5$9f675f10$de361d30$@att.net>
 <CALMrAFR6X4vfH7ryYD5-6OvUtO7Dh-weTHeYA6WdM76VLttU8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1nV6Cx-wOPmWFG1oEwTHiq_TmXDptyMC2a0pa4DEtxPw@mail.gmail.com>
 <009301d2d827$078226e0$168674a0$@att.net>
 <CAJPayv0=6fxFtd8qpc04Rww3_9zMxvjmaCKDAF1X8ABp95Ri4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALMrAFSPwM05CFohhkUofgvg0y7KyyruSdx25FR1S8sD0oq0LA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv3Fox6TC3zBHFts4+-kLi7snrrobAPkGvjsJmu6_7pbdQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALMrAFR8pivsAB=LVe76GC1sk7TCh-o94ZmLdPrZa-heuP2CeA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv1zy8ZoaQ7TyR9JWVxwVO4WOmkLKON51j9twKkoJR_rcQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, May 29, 2017 at 12:46 PM, Tomaz Kristan <protokol2020 at gmail.com>
wrote:

?> ?
> So tiny dx doesn't sound very convincing to me. The odds for an error are
> substantial.
>

?So what detail of the interferometer design have you discovered that makes
the error bars larger than those stated in the paper? If you were building
those two very complex interferometers how would you have made them
differently?

?> ?
> In other words, some fancy data about the measurement equipment
> ? [...]?
>

?If you're going to have any hope of ever detecting gravitational waves
?you're going to need fancy
measurement equipment
?, very fancy indeed.?

 John K Clark
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170529/d42c92dd/attachment.html>

From protokol2020 at gmail.com  Mon May 29 19:30:08 2017
From: protokol2020 at gmail.com (Tomaz Kristan)
Date: Mon, 29 May 2017 21:30:08 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Gravity wave math
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv1zy8ZoaQ7TyR9JWVxwVO4WOmkLKON51j9twKkoJR_rcQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB6FiyhJZU033iwJv_N7BvX_BySJepJWR=+Bius3SN0LmA@mail.gmail.com>
 <002201d2d7b5$9f675f10$de361d30$@att.net>
 <CALMrAFR6X4vfH7ryYD5-6OvUtO7Dh-weTHeYA6WdM76VLttU8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1nV6Cx-wOPmWFG1oEwTHiq_TmXDptyMC2a0pa4DEtxPw@mail.gmail.com>
 <009301d2d827$078226e0$168674a0$@att.net>
 <CAJPayv0=6fxFtd8qpc04Rww3_9zMxvjmaCKDAF1X8ABp95Ri4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALMrAFSPwM05CFohhkUofgvg0y7KyyruSdx25FR1S8sD0oq0LA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv3Fox6TC3zBHFts4+-kLi7snrrobAPkGvjsJmu6_7pbdQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALMrAFR8pivsAB=LVe76GC1sk7TCh-o94ZmLdPrZa-heuP2CeA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1zy8ZoaQ7TyR9JWVxwVO4WOmkLKON51j9twKkoJR_rcQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALMrAFSyzjsYx8byAMUsjW9Cv5V5aazVrpDFiC6O8zMA-HgfbA@mail.gmail.com>

Perhaps this equipment have to be too delicate to be reliable. I don't
know. I know however, that we have a long silence from those instruments.
As long as they are in the production phase.

Just as I've predicted, more than a year ago.

On Mon, May 29, 2017 at 7:11 PM, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mon, May 29, 2017 at 12:46 PM, Tomaz Kristan <protokol2020 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> ?> ?
>> So tiny dx doesn't sound very convincing to me. The odds for an error are
>> substantial.
>>
>
> ?So what detail of the interferometer design have you discovered that
> makes the error bars larger than those stated in the paper? If you were
> building those two very complex interferometers how would you have made
> them differently?
>
> ?> ?
>> In other words, some fancy data about the measurement equipment
>> ? [...]?
>>
>
> ?If you're going to have any hope of ever detecting gravitational waves
> ?you're going to need fancy
> measurement equipment
> ?, very fancy indeed.?
>
>  John K Clark
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>


-- 
https://protokol2020.wordpress.com/
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170529/7054b928/attachment.html>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Mon May 29 20:14:41 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Mon, 29 May 2017 15:14:41 -0500
Subject: [ExI] spam
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEaU2SwPueTvYbw7aEPU2+nb1J0zZDXhxQ5LDtNegkAgwQ@mail.gmail.com>

Does anyone know what happens when you mark an email as spam?  I presume
that it goes someplace other than your inbox, but does the sender get a
message that what he sent was marked spam?  What about his subsequent
messages?  Does he know you are not reading them?

Tangent:  why aren't there little lcd things you can put in the car's back
window to send messages you program to the car behind you?

bill w
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170529/140b903e/attachment.html>

From pharos at gmail.com  Mon May 29 20:37:20 2017
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Mon, 29 May 2017 21:37:20 +0100
Subject: [ExI] spam
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEaU2SwPueTvYbw7aEPU2+nb1J0zZDXhxQ5LDtNegkAgwQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaU2SwPueTvYbw7aEPU2+nb1J0zZDXhxQ5LDtNegkAgwQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armiHXiW4sHsiYYDXq82j7Ht--FtL2E12kQKV9FuB3ajykA@mail.gmail.com>

On 29 May 2017 at 21:14, William Flynn Wallace  wrote:
> Does anyone know what happens when you mark an email as spam?  I presume
> that it goes someplace other than your inbox, but does the sender get a
> message that what he sent was marked spam?  What about his subsequent
> messages?  Does he know you are not reading them?
>

Gmail explains here:
<https://support.google.com/mail/answer/1366858?co=GENIE.Platform%3DiOS&hl=en>
There is no response to the sender. Mainly because in most cases they
send millions of spam messages and there is no point in telling them
that you noticed. :)  But if enough people report them as spam, gmail
will automatically put any more into your spam folder.

>
> Tangent:  why aren't there little lcd things you can put in the car's back
> window to send messages you program to the car behind you?
>

You can get these devices. Search on car window led sign.
But it could be risky to encourage road rage in other drivers.  :)
Especially in the USA where they have a shotgun behind the driver's seat.

BillK


From johnkclark at gmail.com  Mon May 29 21:28:08 2017
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Mon, 29 May 2017 17:28:08 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Gravity wave math
In-Reply-To: <CALMrAFSyzjsYx8byAMUsjW9Cv5V5aazVrpDFiC6O8zMA-HgfbA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB6FiyhJZU033iwJv_N7BvX_BySJepJWR=+Bius3SN0LmA@mail.gmail.com>
 <002201d2d7b5$9f675f10$de361d30$@att.net>
 <CALMrAFR6X4vfH7ryYD5-6OvUtO7Dh-weTHeYA6WdM76VLttU8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1nV6Cx-wOPmWFG1oEwTHiq_TmXDptyMC2a0pa4DEtxPw@mail.gmail.com>
 <009301d2d827$078226e0$168674a0$@att.net>
 <CAJPayv0=6fxFtd8qpc04Rww3_9zMxvjmaCKDAF1X8ABp95Ri4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALMrAFSPwM05CFohhkUofgvg0y7KyyruSdx25FR1S8sD0oq0LA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv3Fox6TC3zBHFts4+-kLi7snrrobAPkGvjsJmu6_7pbdQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALMrAFR8pivsAB=LVe76GC1sk7TCh-o94ZmLdPrZa-heuP2CeA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1zy8ZoaQ7TyR9JWVxwVO4WOmkLKON51j9twKkoJR_rcQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALMrAFSyzjsYx8byAMUsjW9Cv5V5aazVrpDFiC6O8zMA-HgfbA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv1A3fyQRA-u96W3P_-xBHS-Y3SEcfRpy8VeD_VOqn_=TQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, May 29, 2017  Tomaz Kristan <protokol2020 at gmail.com> wrote:

?> ?
> Perhaps this equipment have to be too delicate to be reliable. I don't
> know. I know however, that we have a long silence from those instruments.
> As long as they are in the production phase.
> ?
> Just as I've predicted, more than a year ago.
>

?
That's not quite what happened. On February 9 2016
? just
2 days
?
before the big LIGO
?
announcement
?
I
?
commented
?about?
 the upcoming event
?
on this list
?
and said
?
"*The physics world is full of rumors*" and you said "
*It's betting time then!? I bet? they will say that NO gravitational waves
have been detected so far*"
?
I responded
?to your post ?
with
?
"
*I? would bet they are found because generally it's not a good idea to bet
against Einstein*". I won that bet.

And then on June 15 2016 LIGO announced a second detection of gravitational
waves. After that LIGO went offline for 6 months
?due to?
 maintenance.
?

 John K Clark?


?
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170529/9baf4221/attachment.html>

From spike66 at att.net  Mon May 29 21:21:01 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 29 May 2017 14:21:01 -0700
Subject: [ExI] spam
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armiHXiW4sHsiYYDXq82j7Ht--FtL2E12kQKV9FuB3ajykA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaU2SwPueTvYbw7aEPU2+nb1J0zZDXhxQ5LDtNegkAgwQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armiHXiW4sHsiYYDXq82j7Ht--FtL2E12kQKV9FuB3ajykA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <01b701d2d8c1$79669760$6c33c620$@att.net>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf
Of BillK


>
>>... Tangent:  why aren't there little lcd things you can put in the car's 
> back window to send messages you program to the car behind you?
>

>...You can get these devices. Search on car window led sign.
But it could be risky to encourage road rage in other drivers.  :)
Especially in the USA where they have a shotgun behind the driver's seat.

BillK
_______________________________________________


BillK, this is greatly exaggerated, and perhaps misunderstood by those not
in the US, but I will attempt to clarify.  

Having a shotgun behind the driver's seat is very rare, even in the reddest
of our states.  Reason: they are too long to be conveniently aimed with one
hand out the drivers side window, clumsy, hard to access back there.  Better
is a competent handgun in the pistol box beside the driver in the center
console or the pistol box on the drivers side door, either of which which
can be accessed easily and quickly in an emergency, better than behind the
seat or in the pistol box in front of the front passenger seat.

Some yahoo insulting you with a scrolling LED in the car ahead does not
constitute an emergency worthy of expending ammo and inviting censure by the
local constabulary.  Proper firearm safety suggests the device should be
kept in its stowage under such circumstances to ensure having plenty of
firepower when a true emergency requires it.

Further clarification available on request, you're welcome.

spike



From johnkclark at gmail.com  Mon May 29 21:37:42 2017
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Mon, 29 May 2017 17:37:42 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Gravity wave math
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv1A3fyQRA-u96W3P_-xBHS-Y3SEcfRpy8VeD_VOqn_=TQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB6FiyhJZU033iwJv_N7BvX_BySJepJWR=+Bius3SN0LmA@mail.gmail.com>
 <002201d2d7b5$9f675f10$de361d30$@att.net>
 <CALMrAFR6X4vfH7ryYD5-6OvUtO7Dh-weTHeYA6WdM76VLttU8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1nV6Cx-wOPmWFG1oEwTHiq_TmXDptyMC2a0pa4DEtxPw@mail.gmail.com>
 <009301d2d827$078226e0$168674a0$@att.net>
 <CAJPayv0=6fxFtd8qpc04Rww3_9zMxvjmaCKDAF1X8ABp95Ri4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALMrAFSPwM05CFohhkUofgvg0y7KyyruSdx25FR1S8sD0oq0LA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv3Fox6TC3zBHFts4+-kLi7snrrobAPkGvjsJmu6_7pbdQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALMrAFR8pivsAB=LVe76GC1sk7TCh-o94ZmLdPrZa-heuP2CeA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1zy8ZoaQ7TyR9JWVxwVO4WOmkLKON51j9twKkoJR_rcQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALMrAFSyzjsYx8byAMUsjW9Cv5V5aazVrpDFiC6O8zMA-HgfbA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1A3fyQRA-u96W3P_-xBHS-Y3SEcfRpy8VeD_VOqn_=TQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv0y0nCKaw618LRcD_MvZtnuUv9Cy8hJYh9J5rdC_oJhug@mail.gmail.com>

?Speak of the devil! I just found out seconds ago that LIGO is going to
make an announcement in 3 days on Thursday, they won't say what it's about.

John K Clark
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170529/72221e9d/attachment.html>

From pharos at gmail.com  Mon May 29 22:00:11 2017
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Mon, 29 May 2017 23:00:11 +0100
Subject: [ExI] spam
In-Reply-To: <01b701d2d8c1$79669760$6c33c620$@att.net>
References: <CAO+xQEaU2SwPueTvYbw7aEPU2+nb1J0zZDXhxQ5LDtNegkAgwQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armiHXiW4sHsiYYDXq82j7Ht--FtL2E12kQKV9FuB3ajykA@mail.gmail.com>
 <01b701d2d8c1$79669760$6c33c620$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAL_armhzWo-Tkv0E94A1ho=9fG8a+cKfoFK8yJhS6Tn9J_2f_g@mail.gmail.com>

On 29 May 2017 at 22:21, spike wrote:
> BillK, this is greatly exaggerated, and perhaps misunderstood by those not
> in the US, but I will attempt to clarify.
>
> Having a shotgun behind the driver's seat is very rare, even in the reddest
> of our states.  Reason: they are too long to be conveniently aimed with one
> hand out the drivers side window, clumsy, hard to access back there.  Better
> is a competent handgun in the pistol box beside the driver in the center
> console or the pistol box on the drivers side door, either of which which
> can be accessed easily and quickly in an emergency, better than behind the
> seat or in the pistol box in front of the front passenger seat.
>
> Some yahoo insulting you with a scrolling LED in the car ahead does not
> constitute an emergency worthy of expending ammo and inviting censure by the
> local constabulary.  Proper firearm safety suggests the device should be
> kept in its stowage under such circumstances to ensure having plenty of
> firepower when a true emergency requires it.
>

OK, I can see that a pistol would be more convenient.
I was thinking of -
<https://tau0.files.wordpress.com/2016/05/holey_signs_2.jpg>
More at -
<https://tau0.wordpress.com/tag/bullet-holes/>
Looks like they were not worried about saving ammo.  :)

BillK


From foozler83 at gmail.com  Mon May 29 22:14:08 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Mon, 29 May 2017 17:14:08 -0500
Subject: [ExI] spam
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armiHXiW4sHsiYYDXq82j7Ht--FtL2E12kQKV9FuB3ajykA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaU2SwPueTvYbw7aEPU2+nb1J0zZDXhxQ5LDtNegkAgwQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armiHXiW4sHsiYYDXq82j7Ht--FtL2E12kQKV9FuB3ajykA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEax_dKtN-g5H_hSH+fF4ZmxhKHayo2pQJqHrWa=KXNgNw@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks.  You are just the cube root of pi.  A veritable fountain of
information

bill w

On Mon, May 29, 2017 at 3:37 PM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:

> On 29 May 2017 at 21:14, William Flynn Wallace  wrote:
> > Does anyone know what happens when you mark an email as spam?  I presume
> > that it goes someplace other than your inbox, but does the sender get a
> > message that what he sent was marked spam?  What about his subsequent
> > messages?  Does he know you are not reading them?
> >
>
> Gmail explains here:
> <https://support.google.com/mail/answer/1366858?co=GENIE.
> Platform%3DiOS&hl=en>
> There is no response to the sender. Mainly because in most cases they
> send millions of spam messages and there is no point in telling them
> that you noticed. :)  But if enough people report them as spam, gmail
> will automatically put any more into your spam folder.
>
> >
> > Tangent:  why aren't there little lcd things you can put in the car's
> back
> > window to send messages you program to the car behind you?
> >
>
> You can get these devices. Search on car window led sign.
> But it could be risky to encourage road rage in other drivers.  :)
> Especially in the USA where they have a shotgun behind the driver's seat.
>
> BillK
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170529/bb3b5fe1/attachment.html>

From spike66 at att.net  Tue May 30 02:07:39 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 29 May 2017 19:07:39 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Gravity wave math
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv0y0nCKaw618LRcD_MvZtnuUv9Cy8hJYh9J5rdC_oJhug@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB6FiyhJZU033iwJv_N7BvX_BySJepJWR=+Bius3SN0LmA@mail.gmail.com>
 <002201d2d7b5$9f675f10$de361d30$@att.net>
 <CALMrAFR6X4vfH7ryYD5-6OvUtO7Dh-weTHeYA6WdM76VLttU8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1nV6Cx-wOPmWFG1oEwTHiq_TmXDptyMC2a0pa4DEtxPw@mail.gmail.com>
 <009301d2d827$078226e0$168674a0$@att.net>
 <CAJPayv0=6fxFtd8qpc04Rww3_9zMxvjmaCKDAF1X8ABp95Ri4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALMrAFSPwM05CFohhkUofgvg0y7KyyruSdx25FR1S8sD0oq0LA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv3Fox6TC3zBHFts4+-kLi7snrrobAPkGvjsJmu6_7pbdQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALMrAFR8pivsAB=LVe76GC1sk7TCh-o94ZmLdPrZa-heuP2CeA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1zy8ZoaQ7TyR9JWVxwVO4WOmkLKON51j9twKkoJR_rcQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALMrAFSyzjsYx8byAMUsjW9Cv5V5aazVrpDFiC6O8zMA-HgfbA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1A3fyQRA-u96W3P_-xBHS-Y3SEcfRpy8VeD_VOqn_=TQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv0y0nCKaw618LRcD_MvZtnuUv9Cy8hJYh9J5rdC_oJhug@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <022601d2d8e9$84beebd0$8e3cc370$@att.net>

 

 

From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of John Clark
Sent: Monday, May 29, 2017 2:38 PM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: Re: [ExI] Gravity wave math

 

?Speak of the devil! I just found out seconds ago that LIGO is going to make an announcement in 3 days on Thursday, they won't say what it's about.

 

John K Clark 

 

 

 

I doubt they would request a press conference to say they didn?t find anything.

 

Ohhhhh life is goooooood?

 

spike

 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170529/4dc116eb/attachment.html>

From sen.otaku at gmail.com  Tue May 30 03:56:43 2017
From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard)
Date: Mon, 29 May 2017 22:56:43 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Firearms in a truck was Re:  spam
In-Reply-To: <01b701d2d8c1$79669760$6c33c620$@att.net>
References: <CAO+xQEaU2SwPueTvYbw7aEPU2+nb1J0zZDXhxQ5LDtNegkAgwQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armiHXiW4sHsiYYDXq82j7Ht--FtL2E12kQKV9FuB3ajykA@mail.gmail.com>
 <01b701d2d8c1$79669760$6c33c620$@att.net>
Message-ID: <1EE488E5-ECD2-4AC1-A66E-9D48FA49A6EC@gmail.com>





Sent from my iPad
> On May 29, 2017, at 16:21, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> 
> 
> Having a shotgun behind the driver's seat is very rare, even in the reddest
> of our states.  Reason: they are too long to be conveniently aimed with one
> hand out the drivers side window, clumsy, hard to access back there.  Better
> is a competent handgun in the pistol box beside the driver in the center
> console or the pistol box on the drivers side door, either of which which
> can be accessed easily and quickly in an emergency, better than behind the
> seat or in the pistol box in front of the front passenger seat.
> 
> spike

This might depend on where you live. In the early 2000s in oakwood and flowery branch (yes, the flowery branch in that Hee Haw skit) it wouldn't be weird to see shot guns and rifles in the gun rack, which is mounted to the cab of the truck behind the seats, overhead. 

These guns of course are not meant for shooting people, but for hunting. The rifle generally wasn't loaded, but the shotgun was (even though I think this was illegal). 

I would expect that someone would run you off the road and then shoot you with such a setup, rather than the urban phenomenon of shooting through the window with a handgun. 


From protokol2020 at gmail.com  Tue May 30 04:39:55 2017
From: protokol2020 at gmail.com (Tomaz Kristan)
Date: Tue, 30 May 2017 06:39:55 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Gravity wave math
In-Reply-To: <022601d2d8e9$84beebd0$8e3cc370$@att.net>
References: <CAPiwVB6FiyhJZU033iwJv_N7BvX_BySJepJWR=+Bius3SN0LmA@mail.gmail.com>
 <002201d2d7b5$9f675f10$de361d30$@att.net>
 <CALMrAFR6X4vfH7ryYD5-6OvUtO7Dh-weTHeYA6WdM76VLttU8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1nV6Cx-wOPmWFG1oEwTHiq_TmXDptyMC2a0pa4DEtxPw@mail.gmail.com>
 <009301d2d827$078226e0$168674a0$@att.net>
 <CAJPayv0=6fxFtd8qpc04Rww3_9zMxvjmaCKDAF1X8ABp95Ri4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALMrAFSPwM05CFohhkUofgvg0y7KyyruSdx25FR1S8sD0oq0LA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv3Fox6TC3zBHFts4+-kLi7snrrobAPkGvjsJmu6_7pbdQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALMrAFR8pivsAB=LVe76GC1sk7TCh-o94ZmLdPrZa-heuP2CeA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1zy8ZoaQ7TyR9JWVxwVO4WOmkLKON51j9twKkoJR_rcQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALMrAFSyzjsYx8byAMUsjW9Cv5V5aazVrpDFiC6O8zMA-HgfbA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1A3fyQRA-u96W3P_-xBHS-Y3SEcfRpy8VeD_VOqn_=TQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv0y0nCKaw618LRcD_MvZtnuUv9Cy8hJYh9J5rdC_oJhug@mail.gmail.com>
 <022601d2d8e9$84beebd0$8e3cc370$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CALMrAFSmZMH6c8EOSx9dvheqCygyrn1XJUEO3d1zsS-y0V15ug@mail.gmail.com>

Perhaps they discovered something. Possible. As far as I am concerned, this
would be the first discovery they have made.

Fine with me, too. Wait and see!

On Tue, May 30, 2017 at 4:07 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *From:* extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] *On
> Behalf Of *John Clark
> *Sent:* Monday, May 29, 2017 2:38 PM
> *To:* ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Gravity wave math
>
>
>
> ?Speak of the devil! I just found out seconds ago that LIGO is going to
> make an announcement in 3 days on Thursday, they won't say what it's about.
>
>
>
> John K Clark
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I doubt they would request a press conference to say they didn?t find
> anything.
>
>
>
> Ohhhhh life is goooooood?
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>


-- 
https://protokol2020.wordpress.com/
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170530/cd3ecd60/attachment.html>

From johnkclark at gmail.com  Tue May 30 14:10:35 2017
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Tue, 30 May 2017 10:10:35 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Gravity wave math
In-Reply-To: <CALMrAFSmZMH6c8EOSx9dvheqCygyrn1XJUEO3d1zsS-y0V15ug@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB6FiyhJZU033iwJv_N7BvX_BySJepJWR=+Bius3SN0LmA@mail.gmail.com>
 <002201d2d7b5$9f675f10$de361d30$@att.net>
 <CALMrAFR6X4vfH7ryYD5-6OvUtO7Dh-weTHeYA6WdM76VLttU8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1nV6Cx-wOPmWFG1oEwTHiq_TmXDptyMC2a0pa4DEtxPw@mail.gmail.com>
 <009301d2d827$078226e0$168674a0$@att.net>
 <CAJPayv0=6fxFtd8qpc04Rww3_9zMxvjmaCKDAF1X8ABp95Ri4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALMrAFSPwM05CFohhkUofgvg0y7KyyruSdx25FR1S8sD0oq0LA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv3Fox6TC3zBHFts4+-kLi7snrrobAPkGvjsJmu6_7pbdQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALMrAFR8pivsAB=LVe76GC1sk7TCh-o94ZmLdPrZa-heuP2CeA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1zy8ZoaQ7TyR9JWVxwVO4WOmkLKON51j9twKkoJR_rcQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALMrAFSyzjsYx8byAMUsjW9Cv5V5aazVrpDFiC6O8zMA-HgfbA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1A3fyQRA-u96W3P_-xBHS-Y3SEcfRpy8VeD_VOqn_=TQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv0y0nCKaw618LRcD_MvZtnuUv9Cy8hJYh9J5rdC_oJhug@mail.gmail.com>
 <022601d2d8e9$84beebd0$8e3cc370$@att.net>
 <CALMrAFSmZMH6c8EOSx9dvheqCygyrn1XJUEO3d1zsS-y0V15ug@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv0UW44e=tiy0BGC1TGX22paZDjjTnxfDXH6rAWdXC7CqA@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, May 30, 2017 at 12:39 AM, Tomaz Kristan <protokol2020 at gmail.com>
wrote:

?> ?
> Perhaps they discovered something. Possible. As far as I am concerned,
> this would be the first discovery they have made.
>

?
Beats me how you
?figure?
?
that. If you believe
? ?
those godless
? ?
highfalutin
? ?
scientists with their book-learning ways and fancy pants gadgets were lying
before I don't know why
? ?
you'd believe they would be telling the truth now.
?

 John K Clark ?
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170530/7bc22e9c/attachment.html>

From spike66 at att.net  Tue May 30 14:28:17 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 30 May 2017 07:28:17 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Gravity wave math
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv0UW44e=tiy0BGC1TGX22paZDjjTnxfDXH6rAWdXC7CqA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB6FiyhJZU033iwJv_N7BvX_BySJepJWR=+Bius3SN0LmA@mail.gmail.com>
 <002201d2d7b5$9f675f10$de361d30$@att.net>
 <CALMrAFR6X4vfH7ryYD5-6OvUtO7Dh-weTHeYA6WdM76VLttU8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1nV6Cx-wOPmWFG1oEwTHiq_TmXDptyMC2a0pa4DEtxPw@mail.gmail.com>
 <009301d2d827$078226e0$168674a0$@att.net>
 <CAJPayv0=6fxFtd8qpc04Rww3_9zMxvjmaCKDAF1X8ABp95Ri4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALMrAFSPwM05CFohhkUofgvg0y7KyyruSdx25FR1S8sD0oq0LA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv3Fox6TC3zBHFts4+-kLi7snrrobAPkGvjsJmu6_7pbdQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALMrAFR8pivsAB=LVe76GC1sk7TCh-o94ZmLdPrZa-heuP2CeA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1zy8ZoaQ7TyR9JWVxwVO4WOmkLKON51j9twKkoJR_rcQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALMrAFSyzjsYx8byAMUsjW9Cv5V5aazVrpDFiC6O8zMA-HgfbA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1A3fyQRA-u96W3P_-xBHS-Y3SEcfRpy8VeD_VOqn_=TQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv0y0nCKaw618LRcD_MvZtnuUv9Cy8hJYh9J5rdC_oJhug@mail.gmail.com>
 <022601d2d8e9$84beebd0$8e3cc370$@att.net>
 <CALMrAFSmZMH6c8EOSx9dvheqCygyrn1XJUEO3d1zsS-y0V15ug@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv0UW44e=tiy0BGC1TGX22paZDjjTnxfDXH6rAWd
 XC7CqA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <001f01d2d950$fe07a290$fa16e7b0$@att.net>

 

 

From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of John Clark
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2017 7:11 AM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: Re: [ExI] Gravity wave math

 

 

On Tue, May 30, 2017 at 12:39 AM, Tomaz Kristan <protokol2020 at gmail.com <mailto:protokol2020 at gmail.com> > wrote:

 

?> ?>?Perhaps they discovered something. Possible. As far as I am concerned, this would be the first discovery they have made.

 

?

>?Beats me how you figure? That?

? 

>?John K Clark ?

 

 

 

 

Fourier transforms sometimes do weird things, but I can?t imagine how two completely separate instruments could have done exactly the same weird thing at exactly the same time unless it was the real deal.  I am still astonished at the coincidence of collecting that signal right after turning the thing on; LIGO hit the lottery on the first ticket.

 

Speaking of instruments? recall back in the long time agos when it was said to be big fun to devour hallucinogens and view psychedelic video?  Now you can just go here and skip the chemicals:

 

https://aeon.co/videos/a-tour-of-mars-assembled-from-nasa-images-reveals-a-wondrous-but-uninviting-planet?utm_source=Aeon+Newsletter <https://aeon.co/videos/a-tour-of-mars-assembled-from-nasa-images-reveals-a-wondrous-but-uninviting-planet?utm_source=Aeon+Newsletter&utm_campaign=18748a353f-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2017_05_30&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_411a82e59d-18748a353f-68957125> &utm_campaign=18748a353f-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2017_05_30&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_411a82e59d-18748a353f-68957125

 

spike

 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170530/b4c27b10/attachment.html>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Tue May 30 15:37:26 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Tue, 30 May 2017 10:37:26 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: INVITE 31 May 2017: Autonomous Killing Machines
In-Reply-To: <5eb5b18649ed9021f9b6e6c97.cd24801143.20170530153327.35106c3c4c.4b773395@mail208.suw18.rsgsv.net>
References: <5eb5b18649ed9021f9b6e6c97.cd24801143.20170530153327.35106c3c4c.4b773395@mail208.suw18.rsgsv.net>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEaU4w436NrgON9vbBzzGko_Qnp2jGoktO=DbuVQrBMhpA@mail.gmail.com>

I do not know how I got this.  Perhaps some of you will be interested.
 bill w

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Virtual Futures <info at virtualfutures.co.uk>
Date: Tue, May 30, 2017 at 10:33 AM
Subject: INVITE 31 May 2017: Autonomous Killing Machines
To: foozler83 at gmail.com


<http://virtualfutures.us12.list-manage.com/track/click?u=5eb5b18649ed9021f9b6e6c97&id=c845cbaa85&e=cd24801143>
Autonomous Killing Machines
<http://virtualfutures.us12.list-manage1.com/track/click?u=5eb5b18649ed9021f9b6e6c97&id=ecc4e3bd1c&e=cd24801143>
RSVP for FREE
<http://virtualfutures.us12.list-manage.com/track/click?u=5eb5b18649ed9021f9b6e6c97&id=0141042695&e=cd24801143>

*Discover how weaponised robots that are able to choose and fire on targets
without any human intervention will shape the battlefields of tomorrow. *

Join the Virtual Futures panel to discuss the humanitarian, social and
legal issues that these machines will force us to confront.

This special Virtual Futures event forms part of the Science
Museum's 'Robots Takeover' Lates.

Download the map and guide for this month's Lates
<http://virtualfutures.us12.list-manage.com/track/click?u=5eb5b18649ed9021f9b6e6c97&id=3c39a5e475&e=cd24801143>

*PARTICIPANTS*

*Prof. Mark Bishop *@ProfJMarkBishop
<http://virtualfutures.us12.list-manage1.com/track/click?u=5eb5b18649ed9021f9b6e6c97&id=ea87658a27&e=cd24801143>
Professor of Cognitive Computing, Goldsmiths & Chair AISB

*Dr. Dan O'Hara *@Skeuomorphology
<http://virtualfutures.us12.list-manage.com/track/click?u=5eb5b18649ed9021f9b6e6c97&id=805ee2432a&e=cd24801143>
Senior Lecturer at New College of the Humanities

*Jonathan Tepper *@JTepper2
<http://virtualfutures.us12.list-manage.com/track/click?u=5eb5b18649ed9021f9b6e6c97&id=981c76b2d9&e=cd24801143>
Author of *Endgame: The End of the Debt Supercycle*

*Moderated by:*

*Luke Robert Mason* @LukeRobertMason
<http://virtualfutures.us12.list-manage1.com/track/click?u=5eb5b18649ed9021f9b6e6c97&id=b893da9da7&e=cd24801143>
Director, Virtual Futures

*Autonomous Killing Machines | Virtual Futures Salon*
Wednesday 31 May 2017
07:30 PM - 08:15 PM
Science Museum (Hans Rausing Lecture Theatre), Exhibition
Rd, Kensington, London, SW7 2DD

Follow the conversation online using #VFSalon
<http://virtualfutures.us12.list-manage.com/track/click?u=5eb5b18649ed9021f9b6e6c97&id=1a91e0c2fc&e=cd24801143>,
#SMLates
<http://virtualfutures.us12.list-manage.com/track/click?u=5eb5b18649ed9021f9b6e6c97&id=9acee1c593&e=cd24801143>
following
@VirtualFutures
<http://virtualfutures.us12.list-manage.com/track/click?u=5eb5b18649ed9021f9b6e6c97&id=aa8f341037&e=cd24801143>
.

RSVP does not guarentee entry. Admission will be on a first-come
first-served basis. Please arrive at least 15 minutes early to avoid
disapointment.
[image: Facebook]
<http://virtualfutures.us12.list-manage.com/track/click?u=5eb5b18649ed9021f9b6e6c97&id=00185bb8f0&e=cd24801143>
[image: Twitter]
<http://virtualfutures.us12.list-manage1.com/track/click?u=5eb5b18649ed9021f9b6e6c97&id=79b5e745d8&e=cd24801143>
[image: Instagram]
<http://virtualfutures.us12.list-manage.com/track/click?u=5eb5b18649ed9021f9b6e6c97&id=c998e152a1&e=cd24801143>
[image: YouTube]
<http://virtualfutures.us12.list-manage.com/track/click?u=5eb5b18649ed9021f9b6e6c97&id=41be33ea56&e=cd24801143>
[image: SoundCloud]
<http://virtualfutures.us12.list-manage.com/track/click?u=5eb5b18649ed9021f9b6e6c97&id=c79e9de208&e=cd24801143>
[image: Website]
<http://virtualfutures.us12.list-manage.com/track/click?u=5eb5b18649ed9021f9b6e6c97&id=253e9583a1&e=cd24801143>
*Copyright ? 2017 Virtual Futures (Est. 1994) C.I.C., All rights reserved.*
You are receiving this email because you signed up to our mailing list,
attended a past event or have interacted with Virtual Futures.

*Our mailing address is:*
Virtual Futures (Est. 1994) C.I.C.
Jubilee House
East Beach
Lytham St Annes, Lancashire FY8 5FT
United Kingdom

Add us to your address book
<http://virtualfutures.us12.list-manage.com/vcard?u=5eb5b18649ed9021f9b6e6c97&id=a37c9ead9c>


Want to change how you receive these emails?
You can update your preferences
<http://virtualfutures.us12.list-manage.com/profile?u=5eb5b18649ed9021f9b6e6c97&id=a37c9ead9c&e=cd24801143>
or unsubscribe from this list
<http://virtualfutures.us12.list-manage1.com/unsubscribe?u=5eb5b18649ed9021f9b6e6c97&id=a37c9ead9c&e=cd24801143&c=35106c3c4c>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170530/60afd5f4/attachment.html>

From protokol2020 at gmail.com  Tue May 30 16:21:27 2017
From: protokol2020 at gmail.com (Tomaz Kristan)
Date: Tue, 30 May 2017 18:21:27 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Gravity wave math
In-Reply-To: <001f01d2d950$fe07a290$fa16e7b0$@att.net>
References: <CAPiwVB6FiyhJZU033iwJv_N7BvX_BySJepJWR=+Bius3SN0LmA@mail.gmail.com>
 <002201d2d7b5$9f675f10$de361d30$@att.net>
 <CALMrAFR6X4vfH7ryYD5-6OvUtO7Dh-weTHeYA6WdM76VLttU8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1nV6Cx-wOPmWFG1oEwTHiq_TmXDptyMC2a0pa4DEtxPw@mail.gmail.com>
 <009301d2d827$078226e0$168674a0$@att.net>
 <CAJPayv0=6fxFtd8qpc04Rww3_9zMxvjmaCKDAF1X8ABp95Ri4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALMrAFSPwM05CFohhkUofgvg0y7KyyruSdx25FR1S8sD0oq0LA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv3Fox6TC3zBHFts4+-kLi7snrrobAPkGvjsJmu6_7pbdQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALMrAFR8pivsAB=LVe76GC1sk7TCh-o94ZmLdPrZa-heuP2CeA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1zy8ZoaQ7TyR9JWVxwVO4WOmkLKON51j9twKkoJR_rcQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALMrAFSyzjsYx8byAMUsjW9Cv5V5aazVrpDFiC6O8zMA-HgfbA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1A3fyQRA-u96W3P_-xBHS-Y3SEcfRpy8VeD_VOqn_=TQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv0y0nCKaw618LRcD_MvZtnuUv9Cy8hJYh9J5rdC_oJhug@mail.gmail.com>
 <022601d2d8e9$84beebd0$8e3cc370$@att.net>
 <CALMrAFSmZMH6c8EOSx9dvheqCygyrn1XJUEO3d1zsS-y0V15ug@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv0UW44e=tiy0BGC1TGX22paZDjjTnxfDXH6rAWdXC7CqA@mail.gmail.com>
 <001f01d2d950$fe07a290$fa16e7b0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CALMrAFT3H99Q42MK0m0syPa5dKW_0y43niu0cDNXm2RnzRFZ5A@mail.gmail.com>

>
 ?
those godless
? ?
highfalutin
? ?
scientists with their book-learning ways and fancy pants gadgets were lying
before

My problem with them is, that they are not obeying those book-learning ways
*enough*.



On Tue, May 30, 2017 at 4:28 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *From:* extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] *On
> Behalf Of *John Clark
> *Sent:* Tuesday, May 30, 2017 7:11 AM
> *To:* ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Gravity wave math
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, May 30, 2017 at 12:39 AM, Tomaz Kristan <protokol2020 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> ?> ?>?Perhaps they discovered something. Possible. As far as I am
> concerned, this would be the first discovery they have made.
>
>
>
> ?
>
> >?Beats me how you figure? That?
>
> ?
>
> >?John K Clark ?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Fourier transforms sometimes do weird things, but I can?t imagine how two
> completely separate instruments could have done exactly the same weird
> thing at exactly the same time unless it was the real deal.  I am still
> astonished at the coincidence of collecting that signal right after turning
> the thing on; LIGO hit the lottery on the first ticket.
>
>
>
> Speaking of instruments? recall back in the long time agos when it was
> said to be big fun to devour hallucinogens and view psychedelic video?  Now
> you can just go here and skip the chemicals:
>
>
>
> https://aeon.co/videos/a-tour-of-mars-assembled-from-nasa-
> images-reveals-a-wondrous-but-uninviting-planet?utm_source=
> Aeon+Newsletter&utm_campaign=18748a353f-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_
> 2017_05_30&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_411a82e59d-18748a353f-68957125
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>


-- 
https://protokol2020.wordpress.com/
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170530/2900821f/attachment.html>

From danust2012 at gmail.com  Tue May 30 16:46:30 2017
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Tue, 30 May 2017 09:46:30 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Gravity wave math
In-Reply-To: <CALMrAFT3H99Q42MK0m0syPa5dKW_0y43niu0cDNXm2RnzRFZ5A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB6FiyhJZU033iwJv_N7BvX_BySJepJWR=+Bius3SN0LmA@mail.gmail.com>
 <002201d2d7b5$9f675f10$de361d30$@att.net>
 <CALMrAFR6X4vfH7ryYD5-6OvUtO7Dh-weTHeYA6WdM76VLttU8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1nV6Cx-wOPmWFG1oEwTHiq_TmXDptyMC2a0pa4DEtxPw@mail.gmail.com>
 <009301d2d827$078226e0$168674a0$@att.net>
 <CAJPayv0=6fxFtd8qpc04Rww3_9zMxvjmaCKDAF1X8ABp95Ri4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALMrAFSPwM05CFohhkUofgvg0y7KyyruSdx25FR1S8sD0oq0LA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv3Fox6TC3zBHFts4+-kLi7snrrobAPkGvjsJmu6_7pbdQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALMrAFR8pivsAB=LVe76GC1sk7TCh-o94ZmLdPrZa-heuP2CeA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1zy8ZoaQ7TyR9JWVxwVO4WOmkLKON51j9twKkoJR_rcQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALMrAFSyzjsYx8byAMUsjW9Cv5V5aazVrpDFiC6O8zMA-HgfbA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1A3fyQRA-u96W3P_-xBHS-Y3SEcfRpy8VeD_VOqn_=TQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv0y0nCKaw618LRcD_MvZtnuUv9Cy8hJYh9J5rdC_oJhug@mail.gmail.com>
 <022601d2d8e9$84beebd0$8e3cc370$@att.net>
 <CALMrAFSmZMH6c8EOSx9dvheqCygyrn1XJUEO3d1zsS-y0V15ug@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv0UW44e=tiy0BGC1TGX22paZDjjTnxfDXH6rAWdXC7CqA@mail.gmail.com>
 <001f01d2d950$fe07a290$fa16e7b0$@att.net>
 <CALMrAFT3H99Q42MK0m0syPa5dKW_0y43niu0cDNXm2RnzRFZ5A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7C4A2003-4BB1-4518-9E9C-4C1A4059FC71@gmail.com>

On May 30, 2017, at 9:21 AM, Tomaz Kristan <protokol2020 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> >  ?those godless? ?highfalutin? ?scientists with their book-learning ways and fancy pants gadgets were lying before
> 
> My problem with them is, that they are not obeying those book-learning ways enough.

That teaching-lady need to learn them better. ;)

Regards,

Dan
  Sample my Kindle books via:
http://author.to/DanUst
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170530/76807fe3/attachment.html>

From johnkclark at gmail.com  Tue May 30 17:18:22 2017
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Tue, 30 May 2017 13:18:22 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Gravity wave math
In-Reply-To: <001f01d2d950$fe07a290$fa16e7b0$@att.net>
References: <CAPiwVB6FiyhJZU033iwJv_N7BvX_BySJepJWR=+Bius3SN0LmA@mail.gmail.com>
 <002201d2d7b5$9f675f10$de361d30$@att.net>
 <CALMrAFR6X4vfH7ryYD5-6OvUtO7Dh-weTHeYA6WdM76VLttU8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1nV6Cx-wOPmWFG1oEwTHiq_TmXDptyMC2a0pa4DEtxPw@mail.gmail.com>
 <009301d2d827$078226e0$168674a0$@att.net>
 <CAJPayv0=6fxFtd8qpc04Rww3_9zMxvjmaCKDAF1X8ABp95Ri4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALMrAFSPwM05CFohhkUofgvg0y7KyyruSdx25FR1S8sD0oq0LA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv3Fox6TC3zBHFts4+-kLi7snrrobAPkGvjsJmu6_7pbdQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALMrAFR8pivsAB=LVe76GC1sk7TCh-o94ZmLdPrZa-heuP2CeA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1zy8ZoaQ7TyR9JWVxwVO4WOmkLKON51j9twKkoJR_rcQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALMrAFSyzjsYx8byAMUsjW9Cv5V5aazVrpDFiC6O8zMA-HgfbA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1A3fyQRA-u96W3P_-xBHS-Y3SEcfRpy8VeD_VOqn_=TQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv0y0nCKaw618LRcD_MvZtnuUv9Cy8hJYh9J5rdC_oJhug@mail.gmail.com>
 <022601d2d8e9$84beebd0$8e3cc370$@att.net>
 <CALMrAFSmZMH6c8EOSx9dvheqCygyrn1XJUEO3d1zsS-y0V15ug@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv0UW44e=tiy0BGC1TGX22paZDjjTnxfDXH6rAWdXC7CqA@mail.gmail.com>
 <001f01d2d950$fe07a290$fa16e7b0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv3KbRS5c0MnvFHdUbsOAQeqUhCSFLmQ+CVXN-Dv7ex2Eg@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, May 30, 2017 at 10:28 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:



> ?>?
> Fourier transforms sometimes do weird things, but I can?t imagine how two
> completely separate instruments could have done exactly the same weird
> thing at exactly the same time unless it was the real deal.
>
>
?
LIGO is just completing it's second observation run, if they had 4 million
such runs you'
?d?
expect to see a jiggle as large
?as the?
 October 12 2015
? event caused by random noise once, and after another 4 million runs you
might see ?a noise jiggle as big as the
December 26 2015
? event.  Actually it's even more unlikely than that because LIGO, being a
interferometer, can see more than just a jiggle, it can see an entire
waveform, and the waveform LIGO saw looks almost exactly like the waveform
Einstein predicted you'd see from 2 Black Holes spiraling into each other:
 ?



https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fsites.psu.edu%2Fligo%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2Fsites%2F35076%2F2016%2F02%2F20bbh.png&imgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Fsites.psu.edu%2Fligo%2Fhearing-black-holes-and-neutron-stars%2F&docid=qkXO33X4DcIdoM&tbnid=z2VbcrNcG4k9wM%3A&vet=10ahUKEwi45KyTipjUAhVKsVQKHWpABZgQMwgoKAcwBw..i&w=3600&h=1980&hl=en&bih=981&biw=1745&q=LIGO%20waveform&ved=0ahUKEwi45KyTipjUAhVKsVQKHWpABZgQMwgoKAcwBw&iact=mrc&uact=8


?But nothing is certain in life so maybe it's all just a huge coincidence,
but I wouldn't bet on it.

?> ?
> I doubt they would request a press conference to say they didn?t find
> anything.?


?I'll be mad if they just announce they're changing their logo or the
vending machines in the instillation's cafeteria,    ?


 John K Clark



>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170530/2dcfce49/attachment.html>

From spike66 at att.net  Tue May 30 17:25:13 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 30 May 2017 10:25:13 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Gravity wave math
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv3KbRS5c0MnvFHdUbsOAQeqUhCSFLmQ+CVXN-Dv7ex2Eg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB6FiyhJZU033iwJv_N7BvX_BySJepJWR=+Bius3SN0LmA@mail.gmail.com>
 <002201d2d7b5$9f675f10$de361d30$@att.net>
 <CALMrAFR6X4vfH7ryYD5-6OvUtO7Dh-weTHeYA6WdM76VLttU8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1nV6Cx-wOPmWFG1oEwTHiq_TmXDptyMC2a0pa4DEtxPw@mail.gmail.com>
 <009301d2d827$078226e0$168674a0$@att.net>
 <CAJPayv0=6fxFtd8qpc04Rww3_9zMxvjmaCKDAF1X8ABp95Ri4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALMrAFSPwM05CFohhkUofgvg0y7KyyruSdx25FR1S8sD0oq0LA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv3Fox6TC3zBHFts4+-kLi7snrrobAPkGvjsJmu6_7pbdQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALMrAFR8pivsAB=LVe76GC1sk7TCh-o94ZmLdPrZa-heuP2CeA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1zy8ZoaQ7TyR9JWVxwVO4WOmkLKON51j9twKkoJR_rcQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALMrAFSyzjsYx8byAMUsjW9Cv5V5aazVrpDFiC6O8zMA-HgfbA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1A3fyQRA-u96W3P_-xBHS-Y3SEcfRpy8VeD_VOqn_=TQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv0y0nCKaw618LRcD_MvZtnuUv9Cy8hJYh9J5rdC_oJhug@mail.gmail.com>
 <022601d2d8e9$84beebd0$8e3cc370$@att.net>
 <CALMrAFSmZMH6c8EOSx9dvheqCygyrn1XJUEO3d1zsS-y0V15ug@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv0UW44e=tiy0BGC1TGX22paZDjjTnxfDXH6rAWd
 XC7CqA@mail.gmail.com> <001f01d2d950$fe07a290$fa16e7b0$@att.net>
 <CAJPayv3KbRS5c0MnvFHdUbsOAQeqUhCSFLmQ+CVXN-Dv7ex2Eg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <009001d2d969$b578c4f0$206a4ed0$@att.net>

 

 

From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of John Clark



 

>?. the waveform LIGO saw looks almost exactly like the waveform Einstein predicted you'd see from 2 Black Holes spiraling into each other:  ?

 

 

 

https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fsites.psu.edu%2Fligo%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2Fsites%2F35076%2F2016%2F02%2F20bbh.png <https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fsites.psu.edu%2Fligo%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2Fsites%2F35076%2F2016%2F02%2F20bbh.png&imgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Fsites.psu.edu%2Fligo%2Fhearing-black-holes-and-neutron-stars%2F&docid=qkXO33X4DcIdoM&tbnid=z2VbcrNcG4k9wM%3A&vet=10ahUKEwi45KyTipjUAhVKsVQKHWpABZgQMwgoKAcwBw..i&w=3600&h=1980&hl=en&bih=981&biw=1745&q=LIGO%20waveform&ved=0ahUKEwi45KyTipjUAhVKsVQKHWpABZgQMwgoKAcwBw&iact=mrc&uact=8> &imgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Fsites.psu.edu%2Fligo%2Fhearing-black-holes-and-neutron-stars%2F&docid=qkXO33X4DcIdoM&tbnid=z2VbcrNcG4k9wM%3A&vet=10ahUKEwi45KyTipjUAhVKsVQKHWpABZgQMwgoKAcwBw..i&w=3600&h=1980&hl=en&bih=981&biw=1745&q=LIGO%20waveform&ved=0ahUKEwi45KyTipjUAhVKsVQKHWpABZgQMwgoKAcwBw&iact=mrc&uact=8 

 

?>?But nothing is certain in life so maybe it's all just a huge coincidence, but I wouldn't bet on it. 

 

?> ?

I doubt they would request a press conference to say they didn?t find anything.?

 

?>?I'll be mad if they just announce they're changing their logo or the vending machines in the instillation's cafeteria,    ?

 

>?John K Clark

 

 

 

Ja, I just don?t think they would tease us like that.  Too cruel.  Besides, we Yanks paid for it.  Most of the funding came thru the National Science Foundation, which is US Government.  Guessing they will announce another probable detection which happened a few weeks ago?

 

Speaking of predictions, today?s the day on that ICBM intercept attempt.  No one bought any shared from me at 30 cents nor offered to sell me any.  If you make ?money? the prize is my everlasting admiration, until I forget.

 

spike

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170530/7f891b5d/attachment.html>

From spike66 at att.net  Tue May 30 21:10:05 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike66)
Date: Tue, 30 May 2017 14:10:05 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Gravity wave math
Message-ID: <144181.84841.bm@smtp116.sbc.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

Woooohoooo it's a hit! ?Spike


Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
null
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170530/24c08b63/attachment.html>

From spike66 at att.net  Wed May 31 16:29:39 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 31 May 2017 09:29:39 -0700
Subject: [ExI] curiosity and mno2
Message-ID: <008401d2da2b$1a24bd70$4e6e3850$@att.net>

 

Curiosity has discovered manganese oxide on Mars.  We know how that forms
here: atmospheric oxygen or microbes.  So how did Mars get MnO2?

 

An intriguing suggestion has been made by the Los Alamos scientists: during
the periods where Mars' magnetic field went to nearly nothing, solar
radiation ionized atmospheric water, ionizing it, then the hydrogen ions
being lighter were driven out of the atmosphere, leaving the oxygen ions
free to react with their favorite locally available materials, which would
be any alkaline metals first, probably manganese second, iron third?  That
makes sense, ja?

 

spike

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20170531/d72e5b11/attachment.html>