From johnkclark at gmail.com  Wed Aug  1 01:34:46 2018
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2018 21:34:46 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Thousands of scientists pledge not to help build killer AI
 robots
Message-ID: <CAJPayv1Ba+sx5xWNDi0uCvu5DrjQo+wQ221FFaTHZcAdsD1b9Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jul 24, 2018 at 2:36 PM, Stuart LaForge <avant at sollegro.com> wrote:

*> This Lemay fellow racked up quite a body count but it is dwarfed by the
> likes of Stalin or Temujin*


Some have killed more than Lemay, but not in 6 hours.

>> The puzzling thing is the apparent lack of intelligence in the universe
>> except on this planet , and robots have intelligence.
>
>
> *> When I say "killer AI", I am not speaking of a post-singularity machine
> intelligence that decides to kill us to make room for a hyperspace bypass.
> I am talking about very narrow expert-level AI programmed to kill people
> here and how. Deep blue with a machine gun.This kind of AI has no other
> goal but to kill. If it succeeds in killing us all, it won't be out there
> building Dyson spheres and hailing other stars. It will simply go into a
> power-saving sleep mode until someone else to kill comes along.*


That sounds like the Daleks, they make for a good Doctor Who episode but
like grey goo or out of control paper clip making Nano-machines I don't
think they are a serious worry. It's unlikely that every single intelligent
race in the universe would decide to build such a doomsday machine, and
besides any sort of fixed goal narrow minded device of that sort could be
outsmarted by a more flexible mind. On the other hand robots killing
biological humans to make room for something like a hyperspace bypass is a
real possibility, but intelligent robots would remain so that wouldn't
explain the apparent fact that even our largest telescopes are unable to
find the smallest hint of intelligence anywhere except on this planet. My 2
guesses to explain The Great Filter are we are the first (somebody has to
be) or the robots fall victim to something like electronic drug abuse.

 John K Clark
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From spike at rainier66.com  Wed Aug  1 01:50:30 2018
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2018 18:50:30 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Thousands of scientists pledge not to help build killer
 AI robots
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv1Ba+sx5xWNDi0uCvu5DrjQo+wQ221FFaTHZcAdsD1b9Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv1Ba+sx5xWNDi0uCvu5DrjQo+wQ221FFaTHZcAdsD1b9Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000801d4293a$075044d0$15f0ce70$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of John Clark



>?On the other hand robots killing biological humans to make room for something like a hyperspace bypass is a real possibility, but intelligent robots would remain? John K Clark 

 

I thought of a scenario while out on a 2 week camping trip that made sleeping even more difficult than it already is when camping.

 

Humanity is clearly on the verge of humanoid robots in form: ones which are bipedal and look a lot like humans from a moderate distance.  We probably aren?t that close to AI, but imagine if? we had androids which could be programmed to walk into some public space and start shooting.  They would use ordinary firearms, the kind which are in existence by the billions, they could be entirely untraceable, so there would be no negative repercussions to whoever turned it loose.  If there are no repercussions to murder, plenty of people in civilized society would do it now, for the most trivial of motives.  When I say plenty, I mean 1%, which is plenty.

 

Just programmable humanoid robots, which are easily foreseeable with current technology, could serve as a great filter.  They wouldn?t need AI.  Ordinary human nature would do.

 

spike

 

 

 

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From atymes at gmail.com  Wed Aug  1 09:02:30 2018
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2018 02:02:30 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Thousands of scientists pledge not to help build killer
 AI robots
In-Reply-To: <000801d4293a$075044d0$15f0ce70$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAJPayv1Ba+sx5xWNDi0uCvu5DrjQo+wQ221FFaTHZcAdsD1b9Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <000801d4293a$075044d0$15f0ce70$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNT+2AKPX7L1ioF1=m=xtvmtQ6yYBTyYdnjw4mujBNP4=A@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jul 31, 2018 at 6:50 PM,  <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:
> Humanity is clearly on the verge of humanoid robots in form: ones which are
> bipedal and look a lot like humans from a moderate distance.  We probably
> aren?t that close to AI, but imagine if? we had androids which could be
> programmed to walk into some public space and start shooting.  They would
> use ordinary firearms, the kind which are in existence by the billions, they
> could be entirely untraceable, so there would be no negative repercussions
> to whoever turned it loose.  If there are no repercussions to murder, plenty
> of people in civilized society would do it now, for the most trivial of
> motives.  When I say plenty, I mean 1%, which is plenty.

Consider the quadcopter drone.  An increasingly common sight, such
that one buzzing around might attract looks but not alarm - until it
began letting loose with a pistol concealed among its machinery.
(Perhaps a pistol with an extended magazine, whether or not those are
illegal at the location of the shooting spree.)

Let's say its constructor was careful, using gloves to handle the
drone at all times so as to leave no fingerprints, and operated by
onboard camera outside of visual range, from the back of a parked van
where no one would see the control setup (and which could be calmly
driven away when the drone was taken down), paid cash for all the
components, and used an unregistered gun (which is not made that much
easier by 3D printed firearms, though some would try to claim that is
a critical enabling technology for this even if this gun was provably
not 3D printed).

How would the shooter be found?  And if not, then what consequences
(other than financial outlay, some hours of careful work, and the need
to not do it again in the same area for a while) would the shooter
suffer?



From foozler83 at gmail.com  Wed Aug  1 14:08:19 2018
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2018 09:08:19 -0500
Subject: [ExI] word fun
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZWPqvNyc4TPkj7Uv48s3Z79NY8JpeGBgsjY3LkKMnP0w@mail.gmail.com>

I see where 'obliviot' is becoming standard usage.  As a word person I am
concerned about new words and so have these ideas:

If we have a noun for a person then why not have a noun for that quality
too?  I suggest obliviotness  (or oblivioticy, obliviotment, or ????)  "the
obliviotness was quite apparent at the convention"

For an adjective:  obliviotish - "The principal's scathing reply was so
obliviotish."

Then there's oblivioting for a verb  'Joe Blow is oblivioting again - so
sad.'

I suppose we need past participles and all that, but I will leave those for
others.

bill w

Then an adjective:  obliviot
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From spike at rainier66.com  Wed Aug  1 14:56:40 2018
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2018 07:56:40 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Thousands of scientists pledge not to help build killer
 AI robots
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNT+2AKPX7L1ioF1=m=xtvmtQ6yYBTyYdnjw4mujBNP4=A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv1Ba+sx5xWNDi0uCvu5DrjQo+wQ221FFaTHZcAdsD1b9Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <000801d4293a$075044d0$15f0ce70$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNT+2AKPX7L1ioF1=m=xtvmtQ6yYBTyYdnjw4mujBNP4=A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <005f01d429a7$db3ef300$91bcd900$@rainier66.com>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes
Sent: Wednesday, August 1, 2018 2:03 AM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: Re: [ExI] Thousands of scientists pledge not to help build killer AI robots

On Tue, Jul 31, 2018 at 6:50 PM,  <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:
>>... Humanity is clearly on the verge of humanoid robots in form: ones 
> which are bipedal and look a lot like humans from a moderate distance.  
> We probably aren?t that close to AI, but imagine if? we had androids 
> which could be programmed to walk into some public space and start 
> shooting...When I say plenty, I mean 1%, which is plenty.

>...Consider the quadcopter drone.  An increasingly common sight, such that one buzzing around might attract looks but not alarm - until it began letting loose with a pistol concealed among its machinery.
(Perhaps a pistol with an extended magazine, whether or not those are illegal at the location of the shooting spree.)...
How would the shooter be found?  And if not, then what consequences (other than financial outlay, some hours of careful work, and the need to not do it again in the same area for a while) would the shooter suffer?

_______________________________________________


Ja, or the simpler solution: home-made explosives carried by quad copter into a crowded space, like a parade or sports event.  If a big event like the super bowl football contest is taking place, a bad guy could just release a cloud of flour.  The infidels would panic and trample each other.  I am reluctant to even post the notion for fear it could end mass spectacle sporting events.

As far as I can tell, we have no defense against that sorta thing, but we should.  At the last local July 4 fireworks display I noticed there were quad drones all over the place as pilots realized they could get a terrific show from inside the area where the explosions are taking place.  There is very little risk of a direct hit, no matter where you go (3D space is big.)  So... a bad guy could attack a patriotic crowd there too, with no way for us to catch the bastard.

spike




From atymes at gmail.com  Wed Aug  1 20:10:07 2018
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2018 13:10:07 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Thousands of scientists pledge not to help build killer
 AI robots
In-Reply-To: <005f01d429a7$db3ef300$91bcd900$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAJPayv1Ba+sx5xWNDi0uCvu5DrjQo+wQ221FFaTHZcAdsD1b9Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <000801d4293a$075044d0$15f0ce70$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNT+2AKPX7L1ioF1=m=xtvmtQ6yYBTyYdnjw4mujBNP4=A@mail.gmail.com>
 <005f01d429a7$db3ef300$91bcd900$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNTtuDZh-2M9gZyHfytx2ZiGX6KeF9FDoN1WMY1VwGcfOg@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Aug 1, 2018 at 7:56 AM,  <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:
> I am reluctant to even post the notion for fear it could end mass spectacle sporting events.

You can safely assume that any such thing posted here, at least one
bad guy has probably already thought of.

> As far as I can tell, we have no defense against that sorta thing, but we should.  At the last local July 4 fireworks display I noticed there were quad drones all over the place as pilots realized they could get a terrific show from inside the area where the explosions are taking place.

Laws are starting to come out to ban that sort of thing.  In
California, there is already a law forbidding drones from interfering
with firefighting operations; from what I hear (which could be
incorrect), in the few incidents there have been so far, the people
trying to get a better shot and not thinking about anyone else using
the airspace, took no care to conceal themselves (because, again, they
weren't thinking about anyone else using the airspace) and were thus
found readily enough.  This precedent will help, but only so much, if
law enforcement faces people who are concealing themselves.



From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Aug  3 00:47:49 2018
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2018 17:47:49 -0700
Subject: [ExI] nematodes frozen 42k yrs come to life
Message-ID: <00c601d42ac3$9ae95800$d0bc0800$@rainier66.com>

 

That's what they are reporting: 

 

https://www.livescience.com/63187-siberian-permafrost-worms-revive.html

 

but it might be part of some commie trick to influence US elections.

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From ben at zaiboc.net  Fri Aug  3 20:57:04 2018
From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2018 21:57:04 +0100
Subject: [ExI] 
 =?windows-1252?q?Prisoner_of_bad_philosophy=3A_Carl_Sagan_?=
 =?windows-1252?q?couldn=92t_allow_himself_to_hope?=
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1533088246.6153.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.1.1533088246.6153.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <5B64C1A0.9090608@zaiboc.net>

>From 
https://turingchurch.net/prisoner-of-bad-philosophy-carl-sagan-couldnt-allow-himself-to-hope-a037ba0705e6?gi=5f3557aa6264:

"... an atheist (one who knows that God doesn?t exist)"

That's not the correct definition of an atheist. Atheism isn't about 
knowledge of gods, it's about belief in gods. Specifically, a lack of 
belief in them. Which is a different thing to /knowing/ they don't exist.

-- 
Ben Zaiboc



From ben at zaiboc.net  Fri Aug  3 21:02:42 2018
From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2018 22:02:42 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Thousands of scientists pledge not to help build killer
 AI robots
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1533088246.6153.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.1.1533088246.6153.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <5B64C2F2.5030501@zaiboc.net>


On 01/08/2018 02:50, extropy-chat-request at lists.extropy.org wrote:
> My 2 guesses to explain The Great Filter are we are the first 
> (somebody has to be) or the robots fall victim to something like 
> electronic drug abuse.

A third possibility is that the aliens are all over the place, we just 
can't detect them. A combination of nanotechnology and uploading could 
mean civilisations simply shrink until they no longer have any 
detectable footprint from our POV. There would be several compelling 
reasons to do this, and it could even be an inevitable path for any 
advanced civilisations which don't destroy themselves.

-- 
Ben Zaiboc

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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Aug  3 23:20:28 2018
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2018 18:20:28 -0500
Subject: [ExI] 
	=?utf-8?q?Prisoner_of_bad_philosophy=3A_Carl_Sagan_couldn?=
	=?utf-8?q?=E2=80=99t_allow_himself_to_hope?=
In-Reply-To: <5B64C1A0.9090608@zaiboc.net>
References: <mailman.1.1533088246.6153.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <5B64C1A0.9090608@zaiboc.net>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZEUjqaxrF3HsiPvP5zDVudTd4HADEb_k2NhLz1gjQY3A@mail.gmail.com>

Ben wrote:  That's not the correct definition of an atheist. Atheism isn't
about knowledge of gods, it's about belief in gods. Specifically, a lack of
belief in them. Which is a different thing to /knowing/ they don't exist.

I am on several sections of Quora and find it fascinating.  All levels of
intelligence and education there.  It has been amazing to me the number of
people who ask how atheists can have any kind of morality outside of
religion, and even assuming that we don't!  We sadly need religion taught
in schools, despite the biases and evils that can occur.

bill w

On Fri, Aug 3, 2018 at 3:57 PM, Ben Zaiboc <ben at zaiboc.net> wrote:

> From https://turingchurch.net/prisoner-of-bad-philosophy-carl-
> sagan-couldnt-allow-himself-to-hope-a037ba0705e6?gi=5f3557aa6264:
>
> "... an atheist (one who knows that God doesn?t exist)"
>
> That's not the correct definition of an atheist. Atheism isn't about
> knowledge of gods, it's about belief in gods. Specifically, a lack of
> belief in them. Which is a different thing to /knowing/ they don't exist.
>
> --
> Ben Zaiboc
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From giulio at gmail.com  Sat Aug  4 13:30:01 2018
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2018 15:30:01 +0200
Subject: [ExI] 
	=?utf-8?q?Prisoner_of_bad_philosophy=3A_Carl_Sagan_couldn?=
	=?utf-8?q?=E2=80=99t_allow_himself_to_hope?=
In-Reply-To: <5B64C1A0.9090608@zaiboc.net>
References: <mailman.1.1533088246.6153.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <5B64C1A0.9090608@zaiboc.net>
Message-ID: <CAKTCJyfafQH-EmHxbrGa+m2oMnExuXDFOc6izRZB+RKOKUPaQA@mail.gmail.com>

Ben, then how to explain the taliban-like intolerance of militant atheists?
The only explanation I can find is that they thinkvthey know.

On 2018. Aug 3., Fri at 23:21, Ben Zaiboc <ben at zaiboc.net> wrote:

> From
>
> https://turingchurch.net/prisoner-of-bad-philosophy-carl-sagan-couldnt-allow-himself-to-hope-a037ba0705e6?gi=5f3557aa6264
> :
>
> "... an atheist (one who knows that God doesn?t exist)"
>
> That's not the correct definition of an atheist. Atheism isn't about
> knowledge of gods, it's about belief in gods. Specifically, a lack of
> belief in them. Which is a different thing to /knowing/ they don't exist.
>
> --
> Ben Zaiboc
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sat Aug  4 14:15:51 2018
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2018 09:15:51 -0500
Subject: [ExI] 
	=?utf-8?q?Prisoner_of_bad_philosophy=3A_Carl_Sagan_couldn?=
	=?utf-8?q?=E2=80=99t_allow_himself_to_hope?=
In-Reply-To: <CAKTCJyfafQH-EmHxbrGa+m2oMnExuXDFOc6izRZB+RKOKUPaQA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1533088246.6153.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <5B64C1A0.9090608@zaiboc.net>
 <CAKTCJyfafQH-EmHxbrGa+m2oMnExuXDFOc6izRZB+RKOKUPaQA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYzqUsaxx+Eb-5B4LcSaymyDAUrDs-nh9g11DHqJMcK8Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Aug 4, 2018 at 8:30 AM, Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:

> Ben, then how to explain the taliban-like intolerance of militant
> atheists? The only explanation I can find is that they thinkvthey know.
>
>
>>
>> I think I know this one - atheists realize that people who have a
>> religious faith are using mental apparatuses that are inferior to
>> empiricism and rationalism.  Faith is an irrational thing often involving
>> superstitions.  It's easy to see why an atheist would think that people of
>> religion are inferior and intolerable.
>>
>
bill w

>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From stathisp at gmail.com  Sat Aug  4 14:20:17 2018
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2018 00:20:17 +1000
Subject: [ExI] 
	=?utf-8?q?Prisoner_of_bad_philosophy=3A_Carl_Sagan_couldn?=
	=?utf-8?q?=E2=80=99t_allow_himself_to_hope?=
In-Reply-To: <CAKTCJyfafQH-EmHxbrGa+m2oMnExuXDFOc6izRZB+RKOKUPaQA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1533088246.6153.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <5B64C1A0.9090608@zaiboc.net>
 <CAKTCJyfafQH-EmHxbrGa+m2oMnExuXDFOc6izRZB+RKOKUPaQA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAH=2ypVnZtgF+s71zy8JDyvumx0Yy+GQRU8y3X-9xdYqqsi63A@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, 4 Aug 2018 at 11:32 pm, Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:

> Ben, then how to explain the taliban-like intolerance of militant
> atheists? The only explanation I can find is that they thinkvthey know.
>

Atheists think they know that there is no evidence for God, and therefore
that belief in God is without basis. For some atheists it is upsetting that
so many base their lives around religious belief given this, and they feel
obliged to tell them why they are wrong at every opportunity; for other
atheists peoples? stupidity doesn?t bother them.

> --
Stathis Papaioannou
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sat Aug  4 15:07:23 2018
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2018 10:07:23 -0500
Subject: [ExI] 
	=?utf-8?q?Prisoner_of_bad_philosophy=3A_Carl_Sagan_couldn?=
	=?utf-8?q?=E2=80=99t_allow_himself_to_hope?=
In-Reply-To: <CAH=2ypVnZtgF+s71zy8JDyvumx0Yy+GQRU8y3X-9xdYqqsi63A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1533088246.6153.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <5B64C1A0.9090608@zaiboc.net>
 <CAKTCJyfafQH-EmHxbrGa+m2oMnExuXDFOc6izRZB+RKOKUPaQA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=2ypVnZtgF+s71zy8JDyvumx0Yy+GQRU8y3X-9xdYqqsi63A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbFpib4Usa=WwafOV=wBcg_d2BUndDeO1vQEaL21uHkow@mail.gmail.com>

 For some atheists it is upsetting that so many base their lives around
religious belief given this, and they feel obliged to tell them why they
are wrong at every opportunity;  stathis

And the other way around:  Yet another reason for atheists to be militant:
being lectured to, patronized by people they consider intellectual
inferiors.  It doesn't have to be that way.  I've been 'corrected' by
students in my 101 classes and I found it funny (though I tried to hide it).

bill w

bill w

On Sat, Aug 4, 2018 at 9:20 AM, Stathis Papaioannou <stathisp at gmail.com>
wrote:

>
>
> On Sat, 4 Aug 2018 at 11:32 pm, Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Ben, then how to explain the taliban-like intolerance of militant
>> atheists? The only explanation I can find is that they thinkvthey know.
>>
>
> Atheists think they know that there is no evidence for God, and therefore
> that belief in God is without basis. For some atheists it is upsetting that
> so many base their lives around religious belief given this, and they feel
> obliged to tell them why they are wrong at every opportunity; for other
> atheists peoples? stupidity doesn?t bother them.
>
>> --
> Stathis Papaioannou
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Sat Aug  4 15:28:36 2018
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2018 08:28:36 -0700
Subject: [ExI] 
	=?utf-8?q?Prisoner_of_bad_philosophy=3A_Carl_Sagan_couldn?=
	=?utf-8?q?=E2=80=99t_allow_himself_to_hope?=
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEbFpib4Usa=WwafOV=wBcg_d2BUndDeO1vQEaL21uHkow@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1533088246.6153.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <5B64C1A0.9090608@zaiboc.net>
 <CAKTCJyfafQH-EmHxbrGa+m2oMnExuXDFOc6izRZB+RKOKUPaQA@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <00a501d42c07$d0503e60$70f0bb20$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace
Sent: Saturday, August 4, 2018 8:07 AM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: Re: [ExI] Prisoner of bad philosophy: Carl Sagan couldn?t allow himself to hope

 

 For some atheists it is upsetting that so many base their lives around religious belief given this, and they feel obliged to tell them why they are wrong at every opportunity;  stathis

 

And the other way around:  Yet another reason for atheists to be militant:  being lectured to, patronized by people they consider intellectual inferiors.  It doesn't have to be that way.  I've been 'corrected' by students in my 101 classes and I found it funny (though I tried to hide it).

 

bill w

 

 

 

 

 

Occasionally in our lives we meet someone who is so clearly our intellectual superior it is startling.  In the controls biz, we sometimes had a very gifted young person who just seem to have that rare talent, an ability to see everything, to use the complicated systems of differential equations like Tarzan swinging from vines in the jungle, as effortlessly as flying.

 

We had a guy come thru like that, exactly one, a PhD candidate when he was still in his early 20s.  We have never had one like him before or since.  He was only there about a year before our customer discovered him and somehow coaxed him away.  He was religious to the core, and I do mean fundamentalist, tortoises all the way down hardcore fundy.

 

I don?t know how it works or why it works, but somehow religious belief is orthogonal to intelligence.

 

spike

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From giulio at gmail.com  Sat Aug  4 15:33:08 2018
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2018 17:33:08 +0200
Subject: [ExI] 
	=?utf-8?q?Prisoner_of_bad_philosophy=3A_Carl_Sagan_couldn?=
	=?utf-8?q?=E2=80=99t_allow_himself_to_hope?=
In-Reply-To: <CAH=2ypVnZtgF+s71zy8JDyvumx0Yy+GQRU8y3X-9xdYqqsi63A@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAKTCJyeydwghN4tBxqx7B1MGFKW4G3YJ2X5=Jd+kPyko0keFYA@mail.gmail.com>

These other atheists, I have no problem with. Your personal beliefs don't
bother me, and mine shouldn't bother you. Live and let live!

On Sat, Aug 4, 2018 at 4:24 PM Stathis Papaioannou <stathisp at gmail.com>
wrote:

>
>
> On Sat, 4 Aug 2018 at 11:32 pm, Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Ben, then how to explain the taliban-like intolerance of militant
>> atheists? The only explanation I can find is that they thinkvthey know.
>>
>
> Atheists think they know that there is no evidence for God, and therefore
> that belief in God is without basis. For some atheists it is upsetting that
> so many base their lives around religious belief given this, and they feel
> obliged to tell them why they are wrong at every opportunity; for other
> atheists peoples? stupidity doesn?t bother them.
>
>> --
> Stathis Papaioannou
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From stathisp at gmail.com  Sat Aug  4 16:38:18 2018
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2018 02:38:18 +1000
Subject: [ExI] 
	=?utf-8?q?Prisoner_of_bad_philosophy=3A_Carl_Sagan_couldn?=
	=?utf-8?q?=E2=80=99t_allow_himself_to_hope?=
In-Reply-To: <00a501d42c07$d0503e60$70f0bb20$@rainier66.com>
References: <mailman.1.1533088246.6153.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <5B64C1A0.9090608@zaiboc.net>
 <CAKTCJyfafQH-EmHxbrGa+m2oMnExuXDFOc6izRZB+RKOKUPaQA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=2ypVnZtgF+s71zy8JDyvumx0Yy+GQRU8y3X-9xdYqqsi63A@mail.gmail.com>
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On Sun, 5 Aug 2018 at 1:30 am, <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On Behalf
> Of *William Flynn Wallace
> *Sent:* Saturday, August 4, 2018 8:07 AM
> *To:* ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Prisoner of bad philosophy: Carl Sagan couldn?t
> allow himself to hope
>
>
>
>  For some atheists it is upsetting that so many base their lives around
> religious belief given this, and they feel obliged to tell them why they
> are wrong at every opportunity;  stathis
>
>
>
> And the other way around:  Yet another reason for atheists to be
> militant:  being lectured to, patronized by people they consider
> intellectual inferiors.  It doesn't have to be that way.  I've been
> 'corrected' by students in my 101 classes and I found it funny (though I
> tried to hide it).
>
>
>
> bill w
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Occasionally in our lives we meet someone who is so clearly our
> intellectual superior it is startling.  In the controls biz, we sometimes
> had a very gifted young person who just seem to have that rare talent, an
> ability to see everything, to use the complicated systems of differential
> equations like Tarzan swinging from vines in the jungle, as effortlessly as
> flying.
>
>
>
> We had a guy come thru like that, exactly one, a PhD candidate when he was
> still in his early 20s.  We have never had one like him before or since.
> He was only there about a year before our customer discovered him and
> somehow coaxed him away.  He was religious to the core, and I do mean
> fundamentalist, tortoises all the way down hardcore fundy.
>
>
>
> I don?t know how it works or why it works, but somehow religious belief is
> orthogonal to intelligence.
>

People can be frankly delusional, symptomatic of a psychotic illness, and
still be intelligent. The more intelligent they are, the more elaborate
their defence of their delusion.

Interestingly, part of the definition of a delusion in psychiatry (e.g. in
the DSM) is that the belief is not held by people from the same culture. If
this  criterion were not included then religious beliefs and other beliefs
held in the absence of evidence would be classed as delusional.
-- 
Stathis Papaioannou
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sat Aug  4 17:34:24 2018
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2018 12:34:24 -0500
Subject: [ExI] 
	=?utf-8?q?Prisoner_of_bad_philosophy=3A_Carl_Sagan_couldn?=
	=?utf-8?q?=E2=80=99t_allow_himself_to_hope?=
In-Reply-To: <CAH=2ypX2CwNEf8T9MTY8xUtHBdBPXhyF+jKO6-cjjy0QGpgciw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1533088246.6153.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <5B64C1A0.9090608@zaiboc.net>
 <CAKTCJyfafQH-EmHxbrGa+m2oMnExuXDFOc6izRZB+RKOKUPaQA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=2ypVnZtgF+s71zy8JDyvumx0Yy+GQRU8y3X-9xdYqqsi63A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEbFpib4Usa=WwafOV=wBcg_d2BUndDeO1vQEaL21uHkow@mail.gmail.com>
 <00a501d42c07$d0503e60$70f0bb20$@rainier66.com>
 <CAH=2ypX2CwNEf8T9MTY8xUtHBdBPXhyF+jKO6-cjjy0QGpgciw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZP8cRvdx1WyScaaGqv4boK_XPbBpbYARQxeNwP3754YA@mail.gmail.com>

Interestingly, part of the definition of a delusion in psychiatry (e.g. in
the DSM) is that the belief is not held by people from the same culture. If
this  criterion were not included then religious beliefs and other beliefs
held in the absence of evidence would be classed as delusional.
-- 
Stathis Papaioannou
*Which just goes to show you that you should not let psychiatrists be in
charge of anything important (especially things like involuntary
incarceration).  Do you know how things get into and out of (like
homosexuality) the DSM?  Voted on at conventions - by some who are lit up
like a supernova.  Realize that the DSM is a political and cultural thing,
not a scientific categorization.  For the worst case of this, look at
Russia and China and see who they regard as abnormal.*

*Spike, I think if you would look at the evidence, you would find that your
opinion that IQ and religious beliefs are orthogonal - that is, not
correlated - may be incorrect.*

*We do have many discussions on this site that would be illuminated by
surveys of the literature - meta-analyses (which are often surveys of
surveys and involve hundreds of studies, and I am going to find out how to
access them so we can start from data and not opinion - will let you know -
will visit a reference librarian, as I am somewhat out of touch)*

*bill w*

On Sat, Aug 4, 2018 at 11:38 AM, Stathis Papaioannou <stathisp at gmail.com>
wrote:

>
>
> On Sun, 5 Aug 2018 at 1:30 am, <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On Behalf
>> Of *William Flynn Wallace
>> *Sent:* Saturday, August 4, 2018 8:07 AM
>> *To:* ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
>> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Prisoner of bad philosophy: Carl Sagan couldn?t
>> allow himself to hope
>>
>>
>>
>>  For some atheists it is upsetting that so many base their lives around
>> religious belief given this, and they feel obliged to tell them why they
>> are wrong at every opportunity;  stathis
>>
>>
>>
>> And the other way around:  Yet another reason for atheists to be
>> militant:  being lectured to, patronized by people they consider
>> intellectual inferiors.  It doesn't have to be that way.  I've been
>> 'corrected' by students in my 101 classes and I found it funny (though I
>> tried to hide it).
>>
>>
>>
>> bill w
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Occasionally in our lives we meet someone who is so clearly our
>> intellectual superior it is startling.  In the controls biz, we sometimes
>> had a very gifted young person who just seem to have that rare talent, an
>> ability to see everything, to use the complicated systems of differential
>> equations like Tarzan swinging from vines in the jungle, as effortlessly as
>> flying.
>>
>>
>>
>> We had a guy come thru like that, exactly one, a PhD candidate when he
>> was still in his early 20s.  We have never had one like him before or
>> since.  He was only there about a year before our customer discovered him
>> and somehow coaxed him away.  He was religious to the core, and I do mean
>> fundamentalist, tortoises all the way down hardcore fundy.
>>
>>
>>
>> I don?t know how it works or why it works, but somehow religious belief
>> is orthogonal to intelligence.
>>
>
> People can be frankly delusional, symptomatic of a psychotic illness, and
> still be intelligent. The more intelligent they are, the more elaborate
> their defence of their delusion.
>
> Interestingly, part of the definition of a delusion in psychiatry (e.g. in
> the DSM) is that the belief is not held by people from the same culture. If
> this  criterion were not included then religious beliefs and other beliefs
> held in the absence of evidence would be classed as delusional.
> --
> Stathis Papaioannou
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From stathisp at gmail.com  Sat Aug  4 18:48:25 2018
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2018 04:48:25 +1000
Subject: [ExI] 
	=?utf-8?q?Prisoner_of_bad_philosophy=3A_Carl_Sagan_couldn?=
	=?utf-8?q?=E2=80=99t_allow_himself_to_hope?=
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEZP8cRvdx1WyScaaGqv4boK_XPbBpbYARQxeNwP3754YA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1533088246.6153.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <5B64C1A0.9090608@zaiboc.net>
 <CAKTCJyfafQH-EmHxbrGa+m2oMnExuXDFOc6izRZB+RKOKUPaQA@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CAO+xQEbFpib4Usa=WwafOV=wBcg_d2BUndDeO1vQEaL21uHkow@mail.gmail.com>
 <00a501d42c07$d0503e60$70f0bb20$@rainier66.com>
 <CAH=2ypX2CwNEf8T9MTY8xUtHBdBPXhyF+jKO6-cjjy0QGpgciw@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAH=2ypVt6KCKvaMFqMW1ZrGs0dvnLrM2Qzds7o6SMk6=SFyoXA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, 5 Aug 2018 at 3:36 am, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Interestingly, part of the definition of a delusion in psychiatry (e.g. in
> the DSM) is that the belief is not held by people from the same culture. If
> this  criterion were not included then religious beliefs and other beliefs
> held in the absence of evidence would be classed as delusional.
> --
> Stathis Papaioannou
> *Which just goes to show you that you should not let psychiatrists be in
> charge of anything important (especially things like involuntary
> incarceration).  Do you know how things get into and out of (like
> homosexuality) the DSM?  Voted on at conventions - by some who are lit up
> like a supernova.  Realize that the DSM is a political and cultural thing,
> not a scientific categorization.  For the worst case of this, look at
> Russia and China and see who they regard as abnormal.*
>

Syndromes and diagnoses in psychiatry change all the time, but symptoms are
consistent across time and across cultures, and can generally be recognised
by laypeople. So a problem arises if someone comes up with a clearly crazy
belief but it seems objectively no more crazy than many widely held
religious beliefs: what is it that distinguishes the two types of belief?
It is telling that a special exception needs to be made for religion, and
the basic difference is that if you come up with the belief on your own you
are delusional, while if you received the same belief from your parents you
are not.

A further criterion distinguishing religious belief from delusion is that
in the case of delusion the belief leads to dysfunction within the society
where the delusional personal lives; but how is this criterion to be
applied when, for example, people blow themselves up to honour their god?

> --
Stathis Papaioannou
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sat Aug  4 20:10:06 2018
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2018 15:10:06 -0500
Subject: [ExI] 
	=?utf-8?q?Prisoner_of_bad_philosophy=3A_Carl_Sagan_couldn?=
	=?utf-8?q?=E2=80=99t_allow_himself_to_hope?=
In-Reply-To: <CAH=2ypVt6KCKvaMFqMW1ZrGs0dvnLrM2Qzds7o6SMk6=SFyoXA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1533088246.6153.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
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 <CAH=2ypVnZtgF+s71zy8JDyvumx0Yy+GQRU8y3X-9xdYqqsi63A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEbFpib4Usa=WwafOV=wBcg_d2BUndDeO1vQEaL21uHkow@mail.gmail.com>
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A further criterion distinguishing religious belief from delusion is that
in the case of delusion the belief leads to dysfunction within the society
where the delusional personal lives; but how is this criterion to be
applied when, for example, people blow themselves up to honour their god?

> --
Stathis Papaioannou
Many delusions never surface.  Most of these cases are borderline paranoid
schizophrenia. (Borderline because if it were fullblown the person would
not know the difference between their delusions and reality and would
likely make them manifest in some way to observers).  They are quite aware
that their ideas are forbidden or in some way antisocial.  Thus they keep
them inside because they know that if they made people aware of them they
would face institutionalization or something bad.  Probably millions of
people live and die without ever giving any indication of problems.  Recall
that the estimation of the incidence of schizophrenia is 1% of the
population.  I'll bet there are far, far fewer than 3 million cases of
schizophrenia known in the USA.

Does that make YOU a bit paranoid about the people around you?

I am not sure that any criterion really matters here except the one that
says that we all have to live together, and that blowing people up is to
say the least incompatible with that.  Whether a person fits a DSM
diagnostic category is of little interest, especially given the fact that
psychology and psychiatry has no weapons in their arsenal to change these
people, or at least the ones with the religious aspect.  Certainly some who
confess delusions can get antipsychotic drugs and these can help.  Maybe
there are some clinical studies out there which studied the effect of
antipsychotics  on religious superstitions and delusions.  I dunno.  But
that might be VERY interesting.

bill w

On Sat, Aug 4, 2018 at 1:48 PM, Stathis Papaioannou <stathisp at gmail.com>
wrote:

>
>
> On Sun, 5 Aug 2018 at 3:36 am, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Interestingly, part of the definition of a delusion in psychiatry (e.g.
>> in the DSM) is that the belief is not held by people from the same culture.
>> If this  criterion were not included then religious beliefs and other
>> beliefs held in the absence of evidence would be classed as delusional.
>> --
>> Stathis Papaioannou
>> *Which just goes to show you that you should not let psychiatrists be in
>> charge of anything important (especially things like involuntary
>> incarceration).  Do you know how things get into and out of (like
>> homosexuality) the DSM?  Voted on at conventions - by some who are lit up
>> like a supernova.  Realize that the DSM is a political and cultural thing,
>> not a scientific categorization.  For the worst case of this, look at
>> Russia and China and see who they regard as abnormal.*
>>
>
> Syndromes and diagnoses in psychiatry change all the time, but symptoms
> are consistent across time and across cultures, and can generally be
> recognised by laypeople. So a problem arises if someone comes up with a
> clearly crazy belief but it seems objectively no more crazy than many
> widely held religious beliefs: what is it that distinguishes the two types
> of belief? It is telling that a special exception needs to be made for
> religion, and the basic difference is that if you come up with the belief
> on your own you are delusional, while if you received the same belief from
> your parents you are not.
>
> A further criterion distinguishing religious belief from delusion is that
> in the case of delusion the belief leads to dysfunction within the society
> where the delusional personal lives; but how is this criterion to be
> applied when, for example, people blow themselves up to honour their god?
>
>> --
> Stathis Papaioannou
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From stathisp at gmail.com  Sat Aug  4 23:54:42 2018
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2018 09:54:42 +1000
Subject: [ExI] 
	=?utf-8?q?Prisoner_of_bad_philosophy=3A_Carl_Sagan_couldn?=
	=?utf-8?q?=E2=80=99t_allow_himself_to_hope?=
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEZNnJMR2fad2=pebJWOVOHanGYOmnA5qvtzCosXW-YcuQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1533088246.6153.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
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On Sun, 5 Aug 2018 at 6:12 am, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
wrote:

> A further criterion distinguishing religious belief from delusion is that
> in the case of delusion the belief leads to dysfunction within the society
> where the delusional personal lives; but how is this criterion to be
> applied when, for example, people blow themselves up to honour their god?
>
>> --
> Stathis Papaioannou
> Many delusions never surface.  Most of these cases are borderline paranoid
> schizophrenia. (Borderline because if it were fullblown the person would
> not know the difference between their delusions and reality and would
> likely make them manifest in some way to observers).  They are quite aware
> that their ideas are forbidden or in some way antisocial.  Thus they keep
> them inside because they know that if they made people aware of them they
> would face institutionalization or something bad.  Probably millions of
> people live and die without ever giving any indication of problems.  Recall
> that the estimation of the incidence of schizophrenia is 1% of the
> population.  I'll bet there are far, far fewer than 3 million cases of
> schizophrenia known in the USA.
>
> Does that make YOU a bit paranoid about the people around you?
>
> I am not sure that any criterion really matters here except the one that
> says that we all have to live together, and that blowing people up is to
> say the least incompatible with that.  Whether a person fits a DSM
> diagnostic category is of little interest, especially given the fact that
> psychology and psychiatry has no weapons in their arsenal to change these
> people, or at least the ones with the religious aspect.  Certainly some who
> confess delusions can get antipsychotic drugs and these can help.  Maybe
> there are some clinical studies out there which studied the effect of
> antipsychotics  on religious superstitions and delusions.  I dunno.  But
> that might be VERY interesting.
>

A therapeutic trial of an antipsychotic is perhaps the only investigation
for psychosis that we have (brain imaging can show some correlations but it
lacks sufficient sensitivity and specificity, at least at this point).
Usually it is obvious to everyone else when a patient has a delusion, but
occasionally there are cases where it is not clear, such as when the belief
is not absolutely fixed or when the patient lives in a community of people
with apparently similar beliefs; although to be fair in the latter case the
other community members will often pick that something is wrong even when
to an outsider it seems that there isn?t much difference between the
patient and the others. But if a belief is weakened by antipsychotic
medication, that is good evidence that the belief is due to psychosis.
Religious beliefs are not incidentally affected in patients who are treated
for psychosis, evidenced not by any particular study but in ordinary
clinical practice: patients just return to their premorbid state.

To put this differently, antipsychotics have very high specificity, but
only moderately good sensitivity, since they work in about 70-80 of cases.

> --
Stathis Papaioannou
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sun Aug  5 00:27:37 2018
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2018 19:27:37 -0500
Subject: [ExI] religion and intelligence
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZZuCqW7vid8Cn13OAk9QQLU2UAdR+jv50d5JGtWWdCZA@mail.gmail.com>

My suspicion regarding Spike's statement was correct.  bill w
The Relation Between Intelligence and Religiosity
A Meta-Analysis and Some Proposed Explanations
Miron Zuckerman
<http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1088868313497266?journalCode=psra>
, Jordan Silberman
<http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1088868313497266?journalCode=psra>
, Judith A. Hall
<http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1088868313497266?journalCode=psra>
,
*First Published *August 6, 2013 Research Article
<https://crossmark.crossref.org/dialog?doi=10.1177%2F1088868313497266&domain=journals.sagepub.com&uri_scheme=http%3A&cm_version=v2.0>
https://doi.org/10.1177/1088868313497266
Article information
<http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1088868313497266?journalCode=psra#>
[image: Article has an altmetric score of 1149]
<https://www.altmetric.com/details.php?domain=journals.sagepub.com&citation_id=1673353>
 [image: No Access]
Abstract

A meta-analysis of 63 studies showed a significant negative association
between intelligence and religiosity. The association was stronger for
college students and the general population than for participants younger
than college age; it was also stronger for religious beliefs than religious
behavior. For college students and the general population, means of
weighted and unweighted correlations between intelligence and the strength
of religious beliefs ranged from ?.20 to ?.25 (mean *r* = ?.24). Three
possible interpretations were discussed. First, intelligent people are less
likely to conform and, thus, are more likely to resist religious dogma.
Second, intelligent people tend to adopt an analytic (as opposed to
intuitive) thinking style, which has been shown to undermine religious
beliefs. Third, several functions of religiosity, including compensatory
control, self-regulation, self-enhancement, and secure attachment, are also
conferred by intelligence. Intelligent people may therefore have less need
for religious beliefs and practices.
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From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Sun Aug  5 04:52:19 2018
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2018 21:52:19 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Prisoner of bad philosophy: Carl Sagan couldn?t allow
 himself to hope
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB4n8i5tTTKJAjJw3Fyixd7fUp=5yvF5vrYxF+bkC9jnVQ@mail.gmail.com>

Stathis Papaioannou <stathisp at gmail.com> wrote:

snip

>Atheists think they know that there is no evidence for God, and therefore
that belief in God is without basis.

It is more complicated.  The question is not about a particular
belief, but why people believe in *anything:*  The only reason
acceptable to current science is evolution.  I.e., over some
considerable stretch of our ancestral past the ability to have beliefs
must have had a survival advantage over those who did not have this
ability.

I have argued the ability to have beliefs at all was selected as one
of the psychological features of making war.  But the ability could
have been selected for some entirely different reason.  Not all human
psychological selection is as obvious as capture-bonding.

> For some atheists it is upsetting that
so many base their lives around religious belief given this, and they feel
obliged to tell them why they are wrong at every opportunity; for other
atheists peoples? stupidity doesn?t bother them.

You wonder a bit why the behavior was selected of telling a person
when they have stupid beliefs?  It's not a direct survival trait.


From stathisp at gmail.com  Sun Aug  5 05:30:35 2018
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2018 15:30:35 +1000
Subject: [ExI] Prisoner of bad philosophy: Carl Sagan couldn?t allow
 himself to hope
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB4n8i5tTTKJAjJw3Fyixd7fUp=5yvF5vrYxF+bkC9jnVQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB4n8i5tTTKJAjJw3Fyixd7fUp=5yvF5vrYxF+bkC9jnVQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAH=2ypUBFtfV-NrkUOcrNyWcNd6f4vWO77aLw3oAsbsZ872bcQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, 5 Aug 2018 at 2:54 pm, Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> wrote:

> Stathis Papaioannou <stathisp at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> snip
>
> >Atheists think they know that there is no evidence for God, and therefore
> that belief in God is without basis.
>
> It is more complicated.  The question is not about a particular
> belief, but why people believe in *anything:*  The only reason
> acceptable to current science is evolution.  I.e., over some
> considerable stretch of our ancestral past the ability to have beliefs
> must have had a survival advantage over those who did not have this
> ability.
>
> I have argued the ability to have beliefs at all was selected as one
> of the psychological features of making war.  But the ability could
> have been selected for some entirely different reason.  Not all human
> psychological selection is as obvious as capture-bonding.
>
> > For some atheists it is upsetting that
> so many base their lives around religious belief given this, and they feel
> obliged to tell them why they are wrong at every opportunity; for other
> atheists peoples? stupidity doesn?t bother them.
>
> You wonder a bit why the behavior was selected of telling a person
> when they have stupid beliefs?  It's not a direct survival trait.


Being rational has survival value. Philosophy doesn?t have direct survival
value, but it is a side-effect of valuing rationality.
-- 
Stathis Papaioannou
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From ben at zaiboc.net  Sun Aug  5 12:44:38 2018
From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2018 13:44:38 +0100
Subject: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 179, Issue 2
In-Reply-To: <mailman.6.1533400722.6153.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.6.1533400722.6153.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <5B66F136.7030300@zaiboc.net>


On 04/08/2018 17:38, extropy-chat-request at lists.extropy.org wrote:
> Ben, then how to explain the taliban-like intolerance of militant 
> atheists? The only explanation I can find is that they think they know.
>

A couple of points:

1) I was pointing out that 'knowing that gods don't exist' is a 
misleading definition of atheism, not that there aren't some atheists 
who can be just as obnoxious as some religious people (note: by 
'obnoxious' I don't mean going around beheading people).

2) There's no such thing as 'militant atheism'. As far as I know, that's 
just a term made up by some religious people to smear their enemies, on 
a par with 'islamophobia' (a phobia is an irrational fear. No-one is 
islamophobic). At best, it's a distortion of the word 'militant' to mean 
'vocal'. If militant religious fundamentalists used the same methods as 
'militant' atheists, the world would be a much better place.

'Taliban-like intolerance' would be kidnapping and killing people 
because they disagree with your religious world-view. I'm pretty sure no 
atheists have done that. When did you ever hear of anyone committing an 
atrocity in the name of unbelief?

-- 
Ben Zaiboc



From johnkclark at gmail.com  Sun Aug  5 13:42:57 2018
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2018 09:42:57 -0400
Subject: [ExI] 
	=?utf-8?q?Prisoner_of_bad_philosophy=3A_Carl_Sagan_couldn?=
	=?utf-8?q?=E2=80=99t_allow_himself_to_hope?=
In-Reply-To: <CAKTCJyfafQH-EmHxbrGa+m2oMnExuXDFOc6izRZB+RKOKUPaQA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1533088246.6153.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <5B64C1A0.9090608@zaiboc.net>
 <CAKTCJyfafQH-EmHxbrGa+m2oMnExuXDFOc6izRZB+RKOKUPaQA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv3zg7Bch2bnt4FDKdFYLDy+h_7TS-3ERcGHhvtcH4yZFw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Aug 4, 2018 at 9:30 AM, Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:

>
> * how to explain the taliban-like intolerance of militant atheists?*
>

Taliban like? I don't see the symmetry. The Taliban attack atheists with
sticks and stones but atheists attack the Taliban and their Christian
counterparts with nothing but words. I believe there is an old aphorism
about sticks and stones and words.


> *>The only explanation I can find is that they think they know.*


Or maybe atheists think saying things that are untrue is fundamentally
ignoble and maybe they know that religion has caused more misery in the
world than anything else in human history except for death itself.


John K Clark



>
>
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From giulio at gmail.com  Sun Aug  5 14:48:38 2018
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2018 16:48:38 +0200
Subject: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 179, Issue 2
In-Reply-To: <5B66F136.7030300@zaiboc.net>
References: <mailman.6.1533400722.6153.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <5B66F136.7030300@zaiboc.net>
Message-ID: <F93DB08E-3055-4EF6-B59E-B6E014F9F3F8@gmail.com>



> On Aug 5, 2018, at 2:44 PM, Ben Zaiboc <ben at zaiboc.net> wrote:
> 
>> When did you ever hear of anyone committing an atrocity in the name of unbelief?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_atheism
> 
> -- 
> Ben Zaiboc
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
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From ben at zaiboc.net  Sun Aug  5 15:19:41 2018
From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2018 16:19:41 +0100
Subject: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 179, Issue 2
In-Reply-To: <mailman.6.1533400722.6153.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.6.1533400722.6153.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <5B67158D.3020805@zaiboc.net>


On 04/08/2018 17:38, extropy-chat-request at lists.extropy.org wrote:
> We sadly need religion taught in schools, despite the biases and evils 
> that can occur.

It has been amazing to me the number of people who ask how atheists can 
have any kind of morality outside of religion, and even assuming that we 
don't!
We sadly need religion taught in schools, despite the biases and evils 
that can occur.


We badly need education /about/ religion, that I'd agree wholeheartedly.

Sadly, 'religious education' seems to always consist in religious 
indoctrination, and is biased towards the particular religion that holds 
sway where the students happen to live.  Even when the RE includes other 
religions, it still takes a superstitious, supernatural worldview as the 
norm, and doesn't actually investigate what religions actually are, how 
they arise, and why.

I think the best counter to the morality question is to direct them back 
to their own holy books, and ask why, for instance, they don't own 
slaves, beat their wives, work on Sunday, avoid wearing mixed fabrics 
etc., etc. (best not ask these kind of questions of islamic 
fundamentalists, though!).

-- 
Ben Zaiboc

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From ben at zaiboc.net  Sun Aug  5 15:02:34 2018
From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2018 16:02:34 +0100
Subject: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 179, Issue 2
In-Reply-To: <mailman.6.1533400722.6153.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.6.1533400722.6153.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <5B67118A.4070804@zaiboc.net>



On 04/08/2018 17:38, extropy-chat-request at lists.extropy.org wrote:
> On Sat, 4 Aug 2018 at 11:32 pm, Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com 
> <mailto:giulio at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>     Ben, then how to explain the taliban-like intolerance of militant
>     atheists? The only explanation I can find is that they thinkvthey
>     know.
>
>
> Stathis Papaioannou <stathisp at gmail.com> wrote:
> Atheists think they know that there is no evidence for God

That's an odd way of putting it. Either we have evidence for gods or we 
don't. As gods are held to be supernatural creatures, you need evidence 
for the existence of things (any things) that are 'supernatural' as a 
pre-requisite. We have none. So the Null Hypothesis stands.

Nobody has to prove that gods don't exist, which is a thing that many 
religious apologists find annoying.

-- 
Ben Zaiboc

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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Sun Aug  5 16:05:21 2018
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2018 12:05:21 -0400
Subject: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 179, Issue 2
In-Reply-To: <5B67118A.4070804@zaiboc.net>
References: <mailman.6.1533400722.6153.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <5B67118A.4070804@zaiboc.net>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv3vrB20KWsSY5ugTRmnoRw9HcmmPNbZMtskMZkSouCLhA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Aug 5, 2018 at 11:02 AM, Ben Zaiboc <ben at zaiboc.net> wrote:

> *Nobody has to prove that gods don't exist, which is a thing that many
> religious apologists find annoying.*
>

There is no proof God doesn't exist and there is no proof a teapot is not
in orbit around Uranus, nevertheless I think it would be silly to call
myself a teapot agnostic, I am not ashamed to call myself a teapot atheist.


John K Clark
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From spike at rainier66.com  Sun Aug  5 16:16:54 2018
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2018 09:16:54 -0700
Subject: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 179, Issue 2
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv3vrB20KWsSY5ugTRmnoRw9HcmmPNbZMtskMZkSouCLhA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.6.1533400722.6153.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <5B67118A.4070804@zaiboc.net>
 <CAJPayv3vrB20KWsSY5ugTRmnoRw9HcmmPNbZMtskMZkSouCLhA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <005c01d42cd7$b9cf7a40$2d6e6ec0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of John Clark
Sent: Sunday, August 5, 2018 9:05 AM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: Re: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 179, Issue 2

 

On Sun, Aug 5, 2018 at 11:02 AM, Ben Zaiboc <ben at zaiboc.net <mailto:ben at zaiboc.net> > wrote:

 

> Nobody has to prove that gods don't exist, which is a thing that many religious apologists find annoying.

 

 

 

>?There is no proof God doesn't exist and there is no proof a teapot is not in orbit around Uranus, nevertheless I think it would be silly to call myself a teapot agnostic, I am not ashamed to call myself a teapot atheist.

 

 

John K Clark

 

 

Shouldn?t that be spelled ateaist?

 

When dealing with religious people, there is a line of reasoning I find very common: life without religion is pointless, meaningless, etc, because it has no significant long term? anything.  So, they choose to believe because it gives life meaning.

 

A related line of reasoning hold that only religion offers a basis for morality, and a life without morality would harm others, so? they choose to believe in order to avoid harm to innocents.

 

Hmmmm?

 

OK then, I am one who has discovered joy, meaning and morality in this short life, apart from religion.

 

spike

 

 

  

 

 

 

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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sun Aug  5 16:27:55 2018
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2018 11:27:55 -0500
Subject: [ExI] rational hypocrites
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEY9H2YRfeBmQXnd3UrcUoPhFcWyvY1DnXJN7p7JP8kH0g@mail.gmail.com>

Is believing in an authority rationalism?  Depends on the authority and
where he got his information?

Point is, millions of people have opinions on climate change, Russia and
the election, trade wars, and many more, without the basic ability to
evaluate the evidence.  Or even have the evidence to consider.

I am not talking about those people who watch TV news and believe whatever
is said.  Those are really the low end and I am talking more about the
upper end.  College degree people at least.

Have an opinion on climate change, do you?  Have your Ph.D. long in pocket
in geology, chemistry or what not?  No?  Believe your friend who does have
one of those?  Or some national academy statement?


Believing in an authority is what religious people do.  But what if it's
Feynmann, you say?  He did the research or at least evaluated it.  Can't we
believe him?  Did you see the word 'believe' there?  Feynmann never wrong,
eh?  That's just not science and not rationalism.

It is science to base research on Feynmann and pretend that he was right
and see how it goes.

Do you  believe that the trade wars were a mistake to begin with and we are
shooting ourselves in the foot?  Ph. D. in economics, eh?

I just want to know where the boundaries are.  Where does rationalism and
empiricism stop and unsupported and poorly supported beliefs start?

Well, you have to believe something.  Really?  Well, we do have to do
something to present alternatives to those who would act precipitously with
little or no good  data, don't we?  So we have to act like they do, you are
saying?

You see what this is and where it is going or could go.  Where is your
boundary?

bill w
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Sun Aug  5 16:34:24 2018
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2018 12:34:24 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Thousands of scientists pledge not to help build killer
 AI robots
In-Reply-To: <5B64C2F2.5030501@zaiboc.net>
References: <mailman.1.1533088246.6153.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <5B64C2F2.5030501@zaiboc.net>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv29BiufvfN6pLdP0oqCvTt5C9bLssCmECrkiHxDMu9JcQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Aug 3, 2018 at 5:02 PM, Ben Zaiboc <ben at zaiboc.net> wrote:

>>
>> My 2 guesses to explain The Great Filter are we are the first (somebody
>> has to be) or the robots fall victim to something like electronic drug
>> abuse.
>
>

*>A third possibility is that the aliens are all over the place, we just
> can't detect them.*


I think that's very unlikely.



> >
> *A combination of nanotechnology and uploading could mean civilisations
> simply shrink until they no longer have any detectable footprint*
>

With Drexler style nanotechnology it would be easy to make galaxy sized
engineered structures and its hard to believe absolutely nobody ever
decided to do it. Even a uploaded mind is connected with physics,  the
richer his virtual world is the more computations are needed to  be made,
and the only way t o  perform a computation is by way of matter and energy
with can only come from our non-virtual world. We should be able to see the
upload civilization do that but we don't. It's odd.

John K Clark
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sun Aug  5 16:39:45 2018
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2018 11:39:45 -0500
Subject: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 179, Issue 2
In-Reply-To: <5B67158D.3020805@zaiboc.net>
References: <mailman.6.1533400722.6153.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <5B67158D.3020805@zaiboc.net>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYOQkhsZqBoOg--NuqF5=TMH4f0zvMC0u9WTN6i1tz-zg@mail.gmail.com>

I think the best counter to the morality question is to direct them back to
their own holy books, and ask why, for instance, they don't own slaves,
beat their wives, work on Sunday, avoid wearing mixed fabrics etc., etc.
(best not ask these kind of questions of islamic fundamentalists, though!).

-- 
Ben Zaiboc

I went to a Southern Baptist college for three years (the first thing I
would pick if I could change my earlier life), and I can tell you what they
say when you confront them with contradictions.  Ask why women don't wear
something on their heads in church (mandated in the New Testament), and
they get a little embarrassed and say that well, it's just a custom and
that was back then, and this is now, and it doesn't have anything to do
with being holy, and so on.

Then ask them if some things are relative only to the time when the Bible
was written and some things are eternally true, how do you decide which is
which?  Which is absolute?  I have never gotten any answer to this one.

The Old Testament is generally ignored by the Baptists except when they
find something they like there.  Leviticus in particular is avoided.  (My
OT prof taught us that wine in those days was like Coca Cola - we were way
too afraid of him to differ).

Hypocrisy abounds, as we all know.

Ben is right in that religious courses tend to be Christian and
proselytizing.  But that's not to say that it can't be done right.  I would
have it taught as a history course.  The first thing I would teach:
Empiricism, Rationalism, Authoritarianism, Intuitionism.  And so would many
other teachers and that's why it is not taught at all.  Protestants in
general in my experience don't want students taught how to think.  They
want them taught what to think.

bill w

On Sun, Aug 5, 2018 at 10:19 AM, Ben Zaiboc <ben at zaiboc.net> wrote:

>
> On 04/08/2018 17:38, extropy-chat-request at lists.extropy.org wrote:
>
> We sadly need religion taught in schools, despite the biases and evils
> that can occur.
>
>
> It has been amazing to me the number of people who ask how atheists can
> have any kind of morality outside of religion, and even assuming that we
> don't!
> We sadly need religion taught in schools, despite the biases and evils
> that can occur.
>
>
> We badly need education *about* religion, that I'd agree wholeheartedly.
>
> Sadly, 'religious education' seems to always consist in religious
> indoctrination, and is biased towards the particular religion that holds
> sway where the students happen to live.  Even when the RE includes other
> religions, it still takes a superstitious, supernatural worldview as the
> norm, and doesn't actually investigate what religions actually are, how
> they arise, and why.
>
> I think the best counter to the morality question is to direct them back
> to their own holy books, and ask why, for instance, they don't own slaves,
> beat their wives, work on Sunday, avoid wearing mixed fabrics etc., etc.
> (best not ask these kind of questions of islamic fundamentalists, though!).
>
> --
> Ben Zaiboc
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Sun Aug  5 17:18:36 2018
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2018 10:18:36 -0700
Subject: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 179, Issue 2
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYOQkhsZqBoOg--NuqF5=TMH4f0zvMC0u9WTN6i1tz-zg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.6.1533400722.6153.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <5B67158D.3020805@zaiboc.net>
 <CAO+xQEYOQkhsZqBoOg--NuqF5=TMH4f0zvMC0u9WTN6i1tz-zg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <002601d42ce0$58e228a0$0aa679e0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace
Sent: Sunday, August 5, 2018 9:40 AM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: Re: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 179, Issue 2

 


>>?I think the best counter to the morality question is to direct them back to their own holy books?

-- 
Ben Zaiboc

 

 

 

>?I went to a Southern Baptist college for three ?  Protestants in general in my experience don't want students taught how to think.  They want them taught what to think.

 

bill w

 

 

 

It is a classic paradox of our times: religious fundamentalism does create a reproductive advantage.  There is no real survival disadvantage that I can see.  Plenty of religious fundamentalists accept the notion that they are to spawn several offspring.  If one goes strictly on Objectivist philosophy, reproduction makes little sense.  Conclusion: in modern times, religious fundamentalism is a big enough reproductive advantage, it can be expected to grow over time, even in the face of counter-evidence of its veracity.

 

spike

 

 

 

 

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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Sun Aug  5 17:27:49 2018
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2018 13:27:49 -0400
Subject: [ExI] rational hypocrites
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEY9H2YRfeBmQXnd3UrcUoPhFcWyvY1DnXJN7p7JP8kH0g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEY9H2YRfeBmQXnd3UrcUoPhFcWyvY1DnXJN7p7JP8kH0g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv2oYZUP-iK=RJu+9N1vB_BRO2VMtg5_26y4tZ4uWC=Gfg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Aug 5, 2018 at 12:27 PM, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
wrote:

>
> Is believing in an authority rationalism?  Depends on the authority
>

It's inductive reasoning. If the authority has a history of usually
correctly reporting the facts (New York Times, Washington Post, Science,
Nature) then they will probably continue to do so and be correct about what
they say today too. If the authority has a history of never being correct (
Alex Jones, QAnon) or seldom being correct ( Breitbart, Fox News) then they
will probably continue with that too and what they say today is most likely
incorrect.

John K Clark
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sun Aug  5 19:30:13 2018
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2018 14:30:13 -0500
Subject: [ExI] rational hypocrites
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv2oYZUP-iK=RJu+9N1vB_BRO2VMtg5_26y4tZ4uWC=Gfg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEY9H2YRfeBmQXnd3UrcUoPhFcWyvY1DnXJN7p7JP8kH0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv2oYZUP-iK=RJu+9N1vB_BRO2VMtg5_26y4tZ4uWC=Gfg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZ4EBRCfwOGTaxNFKOPWxrRNAuTgeCnFv304ft935VEVQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Aug 5, 2018 at 12:27 PM, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Sun, Aug 5, 2018 at 12:27 PM, William Flynn Wallace <
> foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >
>> Is believing in an authority rationalism?  Depends on the authority
>>
>
> It's inductive reasoning. If the authority has a history of usually
> correctly reporting the facts (New York Times, Washington Post, Science,
> Nature) then they will probably continue to do so and be correct about what
> they say today too. If the authority has a history of never being correct (
> Alex Jones, QAnon) or seldom being correct ( Breitbart, Fox News) then they
> will probably continue with that too and what they say today is most likely
> incorrect.
>
> John K Clark
>
>
> When you say the NYT has a history of being correct, then you are using
> some external sources of validity to conclude that - external to the Times,
> that is.  And ditto for the external lack of validity for Fox.
>
> So you have a team approach:  if Nature, Science, the NYT all say the same
> thing, then you conclude it's true (true in the scientific sense of
> provisionally true).  And likewise when you have contradictions, Fox and
> NYT agree, you wait to see if it can be sorted out later, I assume.  Or
> maybe, if Fox is consistently bad, then just ignore it
>
> But if no external sources of validity are used, then it's clearly plain
authoritarianism and no more, right?  Like religion.

bill w

bill w




> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From atymes at gmail.com  Sun Aug  5 19:54:25 2018
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2018 12:54:25 -0700
Subject: [ExI] rational hypocrites
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEZ4EBRCfwOGTaxNFKOPWxrRNAuTgeCnFv304ft935VEVQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEY9H2YRfeBmQXnd3UrcUoPhFcWyvY1DnXJN7p7JP8kH0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv2oYZUP-iK=RJu+9N1vB_BRO2VMtg5_26y4tZ4uWC=Gfg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZ4EBRCfwOGTaxNFKOPWxrRNAuTgeCnFv304ft935VEVQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNThkAoNza6=QTGydCNcoibYJpkpdo8SmV=Bjd17s1qgTA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Aug 5, 2018 at 12:30 PM, William Flynn Wallace
<foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
> When you say the NYT has a history of being correct, then you are using
> some external sources of validity to conclude that - external to the Times,
> that is.  And ditto for the external lack of validity for Fox.
>
> So you have a team approach:  if Nature, Science, the NYT all say the same
> thing, then you conclude it's true (true in the scientific sense of
> provisionally true).  And likewise when you have contradictions, Fox and NYT
> agree, you wait to see if it can be sorted out later, I assume.  Or maybe,
> if Fox is consistently bad, then just ignore it
>
> But if no external sources of validity are used, then it's clearly plain
> authoritarianism and no more, right?  Like religion.

Problem with that approach is, how external do you get, before all
possible sources are lumped in as a team?

How do you know that your own eyes, ears, and other senses aren't in
on it, or being manipulated by some conspiracy?

One could (and many do) say that the correctness of Fox's claims as
opposed to the NYT's has been measured repeatedly, and the evidence is
out there to look up so you don't have to spend time repeatedly
re-proving this point every time it comes up (thus countering the
alleged strategy of simply repeating lies - which uses little energy -
until those who would correct the liars run out of energy to do so,
leaving the liars as the only ones still speaking).  One could even
claim that the repeated "ignorance" of said measures is feigned, and
part of the strategy to let lies win by exhaustion.

But more importantly, one could claim these repeated measures
themselves are a fabrication, the historical evidence manipulated
until there is no such thing as reliable evidence, and instead only
what people claim on the spur of the moment, even what their own past
words were being called into question - even, in extreme cases, mere
moments after they uttered or typed them.


From kgh1kgh2 at gmail.com  Sun Aug  5 20:38:42 2018
From: kgh1kgh2 at gmail.com (Kevin George Haskell)
Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2018 16:38:42 -0400
Subject: [ExI] The Violence of Atheism
Message-ID: <EEEBF275-7140-455F-9306-9E4389A172D8@gmail.com>

Thanks for posting the link, Giulio, and reminding people that atheism is a core requirement of Communism, the most violent ideology ever created by Man. My atheism ended 3 years ago. (Spiritual, not religious).  It's opened my eyes completely to limited nature of materialism as being a necessity, but a low frequency one.       On Aug 5, 2018, at 2:44 PM, Ben Zaiboc <ben at zaiboc.net> wrote:
>> 
>> "When did you ever hear of anyone committing an atrocity in the name of unbelief?" -BZ

Response:

"https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_atheism" -Giulio Prisco

Well done, Giulio.
> 
>                                                                                                             
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Sun Aug  5 21:07:04 2018
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2018 17:07:04 -0400
Subject: [ExI] rational hypocrites
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNThkAoNza6=QTGydCNcoibYJpkpdo8SmV=Bjd17s1qgTA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEY9H2YRfeBmQXnd3UrcUoPhFcWyvY1DnXJN7p7JP8kH0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv2oYZUP-iK=RJu+9N1vB_BRO2VMtg5_26y4tZ4uWC=Gfg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZ4EBRCfwOGTaxNFKOPWxrRNAuTgeCnFv304ft935VEVQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNThkAoNza6=QTGydCNcoibYJpkpdo8SmV=Bjd17s1qgTA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv0q-vzwzTq-khKnia8LbBirMWAG-hJb5mCCUvwoSM5xdQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Aug 5, 2018 at 3:54 PM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:


>
> * >How do you know that your own eyes, ears, and other senses aren't in on
> it, or being manipulated by some conspiracy?*


I don't know. Godel and Turing proved 80 years ago there is no algorithm
that will always give you the truth the whole truth and nothing but the
truth, so we have no choice but to use judgement in determining what to
believe and what is too silly to warrant further consideration. But
nobody's judgement is infallible so maybe I'm wrong and Alex Jones is right
and the traumatized Sandy Hook shooting survivors really are just very very
talented 6 year old child actors payed to look sad and terrified by fans of
gun control. And maybe QAnon is right and Hillary Clinton and Tom Hanks
really are pedophiles and head of a international ring of child molesters
that secretly rules the world. And maybe there really is a china teapot in
orbit around Uranus. And maybe there really is a God. Maybe, but I rather
doubt it.

John K Clark




>
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From ben at zaiboc.net  Sun Aug  5 21:16:01 2018
From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2018 22:16:01 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Atheism
In-Reply-To: <mailman.8.1533482395.6153.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.8.1533482395.6153.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <5B676911.5070509@zaiboc.net>


Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Aug 5, 2018, at 2:44 PM, Ben Zaiboc <ben at zaiboc.net 
> <mailto:ben at zaiboc.net>> wrote:
>
>> When did you ever hear of anyone committing an atrocity in the name 
>> of unbelief?
>
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_atheism

I don't think you understood the question.

I'm not asking when did you ever hear of a regime trying to enforce 
atheism on a population for political reasons.

I'm asking when did you ever hear of a person committing an atrocity (or 
indeed anything deserving of the name 'militant',  i.e. involving the 
use of force) in the name of atheism itself?
I  don't think I've never heard of a single instance of this.

States will employ force, as they've always done, in order to control 
the population. The most obvious reason for mandating atheism is to 
remove the power of the church. It has nothing to do with the issue of 
belief, it's more like an up-to-date version of Henry the VIII 
establishing the church of england.

-- 
Ben Zaiboc

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From ben at zaiboc.net  Sun Aug  5 21:21:12 2018
From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2018 22:21:12 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Atheism
In-Reply-To: <mailman.10.1533503236.6153.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.10.1533503236.6153.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <5B676A48.4010408@zaiboc.net>


On 05/08/2018 22:07, Spike wrote:
>
> When dealing with religious people, there is a line of reasoning I 
> find very common: life without religion is pointless, meaningless, 
> etc, because it has no significant long term... anything.  So, they 
> choose to believe because it gives life meaning.
>
> A related line of reasoning hold that only religion offers a basis for 
> morality, and a life without morality would harm others, so... they 
> choose to believe in order to avoid harm to innocents.
>
> Hmmmm...
>
> OK then, I am one who has discovered joy, meaning and morality in this 
> short life, apart from religion.
>

You are far from the only one, Spike.

I suspect there are many, many more than certain parties would be 
comfortable with. And, it seems, there are more all the time.

-- 
Ben Zaiboc

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From ben at zaiboc.net  Sun Aug  5 21:30:03 2018
From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2018 22:30:03 +0100
Subject: [ExI] rational hypocrites
In-Reply-To: <mailman.10.1533503236.6153.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.10.1533503236.6153.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <5B676C5B.3090400@zaiboc.net>


On 05/08/2018 22:07, BillW wrote:

 > Well, you have to believe something.  Really?


Bill, I've had this argument many times, with various people.

I think that because we often say 'I believe you' or 'I believe it will 
rain tomorrow', etc., some people say it's impossible to have no 
'beliefs', but I distinguish between 'beliefs' and 'Beliefs', where the 
former has no particular force, and merely indicates an opinion, and the 
latter, Capital B version indicates an absolute Belief that withstands 
all evidence to the contrary. I don't have any Beliefs (or at least I 
don't believe I do).

-- Ben Zaiboc

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From ben at zaiboc.net  Sun Aug  5 22:05:07 2018
From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2018 23:05:07 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Atheism
In-Reply-To: <mailman.10.1533503236.6153.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.10.1533503236.6153.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <5B677493.7090302@zaiboc.net>


On 05/08/2018 22:07, Kevin George Haskell <kgh1kgh2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> Thanks for posting the link, Giulio, and reminding people that atheism 
> is a core requirement of Communism, the most violent ideology ever 
> created by Man. My atheism ended 3 years ago. (Spiritual, not 
> religious).  It's opened my eyes completely to limited nature of 
> materialism as being a necessity, but a low frequency one. On Aug 5, 
> 2018, at 2:44 PM, Ben Zaiboc <ben at zaiboc.net <mailto:ben at zaiboc.net>> 
> wrote:
>>>
>>> "When did you ever hear of anyone committing an atrocity in the name 
>>> of unbelief?" -BZ
>
> Response:
>
> "https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_atheism" -Giulio Prisco
>
> Well done, Giulio.


Atheism is a core requirement of communism, therefore atheism is 
responsible for the bad things that communism leads to??

By that logic, we can conclude that a basic knowledge of law is 
responsible for police brutality, or any number of other daft correlations.

-- 
Ben Zaiboc

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From ben at zaiboc.net  Sun Aug  5 22:19:18 2018
From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2018 23:19:18 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Thousands of scientists pledge not to help build killer
 AI robots
In-Reply-To: <mailman.10.1533503236.6153.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.10.1533503236.6153.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <5B6777E6.5070407@zaiboc.net>

On 05/08/2018 22:07, John Clark wrote:
> On Fri, Aug 3, 2018 at 5:02 PM, Ben Zaiboc <ben at zaiboc.net 
> <mailto:ben at zaiboc.net>>wrote:
>
>         >>
>         My 2 guesses to explain The Great Filter are we are the first
>         (somebody has to be) or the robots fall victim to something
>         like electronic drug abuse.
>
>     /
>     >
>     A third possibility is that the aliens are all over the place, we
>     just can't detect them./
>
>
> I think that's very unlikely.
>
>     >
>     /A combination of nanotechnology and uploading could mean
>     civilisations simply shrink until they no longer have any
>     detectable footprint/
>
>
> With Drexler style nanotechnology it would be easy to make galaxy 
> sized engineered structures and its hard to believe absolutely nobody 
> ever decided to do it. Even a uploaded mind is connected with physics, 
>  the richer his virtual world is the more computations are needed to 
>  be made, and the only way t o  perform a computation is by way of 
> matter and energy with can only come from our non-virtual world. We 
> should be able to see the upload civilization do that but we don't. 
> It's odd.
>

One of the practical reasons for going small, quick, and low-energy 
would be the speed of light making galaxy-sized engineering projects of 
any kind, extremely unattractive and possibly prohibiting them 
altogether. I'm thinking of upload civilisations that occupy cubic 
millilitres, run millions of times faster than we do, and consume tiny 
amounts of energy.

But in any event, whether that's realistic or not, it makes sense for us 
to assume we are alone. Either we really are, or we effectively are.

-- 
Ben Zaiboc

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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sun Aug  5 22:28:20 2018
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2018 17:28:20 -0500
Subject: [ExI] The Violence of Atheism
In-Reply-To: <EEEBF275-7140-455F-9306-9E4389A172D8@gmail.com>
References: <EEEBF275-7140-455F-9306-9E4389A172D8@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbewj1naN29Wp5Urd6fQwKFXsOtAMva-mz2u2JiWVtmjA@mail.gmail.com>

Kevin George Haskell
Thanks for posting the link, Giulio, and reminding people that atheism is a
core requirement of Communism, the most violent ideology ever created by Man

Does anyone think that since Communists try to force atheism (because they
don't want any competition) on their subjects that the violence thus stems
from atheism?  Look at all the various 'theisms' - none of them seem to
have restricted their violent tendencies because of believing in a god.

Does anyone think that giving up atheism makes one less violent?

If anyone believes any of the above I suggest a return trip through various
history classes.  And correlation does not mean cause and effect.

bill w

On Sun, Aug 5, 2018 at 3:38 PM, Kevin George Haskell <kgh1kgh2 at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Thanks for posting the link, Giulio, and reminding people that atheism is
> a core requirement of Communism, the most violent ideology ever created by
> Man. My atheism ended 3 years ago. (Spiritual, not religious).  It's opened
> my eyes completely to limited nature of materialism as being a necessity,
> but a low frequency one.       On Aug 5, 2018, at 2:44 PM, Ben Zaiboc <
> ben at zaiboc.net> wrote:
>
>
> "When did you ever hear of anyone committing an atrocity in the name of
> unbelief?" -BZ
>
>
> Response:
>
> "https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_atheism" -Giulio Prisco
>
> Well done, Giulio.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Sun Aug  5 22:54:03 2018
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2018 18:54:03 -0400
Subject: [ExI] The Violence of Atheism
In-Reply-To: <EEEBF275-7140-455F-9306-9E4389A172D8@gmail.com>
References: <EEEBF275-7140-455F-9306-9E4389A172D8@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv28tzUjztQuw79i0bK3Zo8k3FHoshmLyAv+96K9G2V+Ww@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Aug 5, 2018 at 4:38 PM, Kevin George Haskell <kgh1kgh2 at gmail.com>
wrote:


> *> Thanks for posting the link, Giulio, and reminding people that atheism
> is a core requirement of Communism,**the most violent ideology ever
> created by Man.*


Tell me if you think the following is religious: "*The doctrine of Marx is
omnipotent because it is true*". It sure sound religious to me and the holy
man who said it was Vladimir Lenin. I agree that Stalin and Hitler were the
two greatest monsters of the 20th century but  Stalin persecuted religion
for exactly the same reason Catholics persecuted Protestants and
Protestants persecuted Catholics, they didn't want the competition from
rival religious franchises. Stalin's core commandment was "I am the lord
thy God and thou shalt have no other gods before me"

Like other religions Stalin worship insisted it had a monopoly on the
truth, He said Mendelian genetics and Darwinian Evolution violated the
scripture of Dialectic Materialism so he murdered biologists, and He said
Quantum Mechanics also violated Dialectic Materialism so he murdered Matvei
Bronstein, the pioneer of quantum gravity, and continued to persecute
physicists until he realized they could be useful and give Him a nuclear
bomb.

John K Clark
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Sun Aug  5 23:56:05 2018
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2018 19:56:05 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Thousands of scientists pledge not to help build killer
 AI robots
In-Reply-To: <5B6777E6.5070407@zaiboc.net>
References: <mailman.10.1533503236.6153.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <5B6777E6.5070407@zaiboc.net>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv0iMnoPQs_K+55hL14Wdsm4Ruq9O3LY-k+dJ7w2soFKiA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Aug 5, 2018 at 6:19 PM, Ben Zaiboc <ben at zaiboc.net> wrote:

* >One of the practical reasons for going small, quick, and low-energy
> would be the speed of light making galaxy-sized engineering projects of any
> kind, extremely unattractive and possibly prohibiting them altogether.*
>

ET doesn't even need to travel to the stars, ET just needs to send one Von
Neumann probe to one star.Even if we make the ridiculously conservative
assumption that ET can't send space probes any faster than we can then
almost instantly from a cosmic perspective (less than 50 million years) the
entire Galaxy would be unrecognizable. It's not as if this would take some
huge commitment on the part of ET's civilization, in fact even a individual
could easily do it. If Von Neumann probes are possible at all, and I can't
think why they wouldn't be, then they're going to be dirt cheap, you buying
a bag of peanuts would be a greater drag on your financial resources. Even
if many or even most ETs think that sending out a Von Neumann probe would
be a bad idea there will always be somebody who disagrees. And it only
takes one. And yet we see nothing. it's odd.

*> I'm thinking of upload civilisations that occupy cubic millilitres, run
> millions of times faster than we do, and consume tiny amounts of energy.*



If you live in a virtual world you're going to want it to be very rich and
interesting, and that takes computation, and computation is physical.
Because of the physical reality of atoms there is a limit on how much
miniaturization you can do, and computation takes energy. Even with us 10%
of the world's electrical consumption is used to process data and the
percentage is rising fast. If billions of people are to be uploaded into a
rich virtual world they will need to do astronomically more data processing
than we do.

John K Clark
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From col.hales at gmail.com  Mon Aug  6 04:52:14 2018
From: col.hales at gmail.com (Colin Hales)
Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2018 14:52:14 +1000
Subject: [ExI] The Violence of Atheism
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEbewj1naN29Wp5Urd6fQwKFXsOtAMva-mz2u2JiWVtmjA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <EEEBF275-7140-455F-9306-9E4389A172D8@gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEbewj1naN29Wp5Urd6fQwKFXsOtAMva-mz2u2JiWVtmjA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGHyZJmyj9NDY168g7mWE68i1gipbejH2wxpoiqwE6Er_nHmfw@mail.gmail.com>

This thread originates in casuistry gone mad.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQPsLMygz1s

Take some Hitchslap.




On Mon, Aug 6, 2018 at 8:28 AM, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
wrote:

>
> Kevin George Haskell
> Thanks for posting the link, Giulio, and reminding people that atheism is
> a core requirement of Communism, the most violent ideology ever created by
> Man
>
> Does anyone think that since Communists try to force atheism (because they
> don't want any competition) on their subjects that the violence thus stems
> from atheism?  Look at all the various 'theisms' - none of them seem to
> have restricted their violent tendencies because of believing in a god.
>
> Does anyone think that giving up atheism makes one less violent?
>
> If anyone believes any of the above I suggest a return trip through
> various history classes.  And correlation does not mean cause and effect.
>
> bill w
>
> On Sun, Aug 5, 2018 at 3:38 PM, Kevin George Haskell <kgh1kgh2 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Thanks for posting the link, Giulio, and reminding people that atheism is
>> a core requirement of Communism, the most violent ideology ever created by
>> Man. My atheism ended 3 years ago. (Spiritual, not religious).  It's opened
>> my eyes completely to limited nature of materialism as being a necessity,
>> but a low frequency one.       On Aug 5, 2018, at 2:44 PM, Ben Zaiboc <
>> ben at zaiboc.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>> "When did you ever hear of anyone committing an atrocity in the name of
>> unbelief?" -BZ
>>
>>
>> Response:
>>
>> "https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_atheism" -Giulio Prisco
>>
>> Well done, Giulio.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From giulio at gmail.com  Mon Aug  6 09:03:59 2018
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2018 11:03:59 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Atheism
In-Reply-To: <5B676911.5070509@zaiboc.net>
References: <mailman.8.1533482395.6153.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <5B676911.5070509@zaiboc.net>
Message-ID: <CAKTCJyfZNQXKuj4rDNHAQx5it_Wxcb7zGTre6OGEGRgoBGHpFg@mail.gmail.com>

I trust you'll concede that the regimes that perpetrated the
atrocities described in the Wikipedia article are not abstract
entities, but formed by persons like you and I. I trust you'll also
concede that these PERSONS committed ATROCITIES in name of atheism. So
please no more of this bullshit that atheists don't commit atrocities
in name of their belief. They do, just like the theocratic
fundamentalists they claim to oppose.

On Sun, Aug 5, 2018 at 11:16 PM, Ben Zaiboc <ben at zaiboc.net> wrote:
>
> Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Aug 5, 2018, at 2:44 PM, Ben Zaiboc <ben at zaiboc.net> wrote:
>
> When did you ever hear of anyone committing an atrocity in the name of
> unbelief?
>
>
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_atheism
>
>
> I don't think you understood the question.
>
> I'm not asking when did you ever hear of a regime trying to enforce atheism
> on a population for political reasons.
>
> I'm asking when did you ever hear of a person committing an atrocity (or
> indeed anything deserving of the name 'militant',  i.e. involving the use of
> force) in the name of atheism itself?
> I  don't think I've never heard of a single instance of this.
>
> States will employ force, as they've always done, in order to control the
> population. The most obvious reason for mandating atheism is to remove the
> power of the church. It has nothing to do with the issue of belief, it's
> more like an up-to-date version of Henry the VIII establishing the church of
> england.
>
> --
> Ben Zaiboc
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>


From msd001 at gmail.com  Mon Aug  6 12:27:16 2018
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2018 08:27:16 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Thousands of scientists pledge not to help build killer
 AI robots
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv0iMnoPQs_K+55hL14Wdsm4Ruq9O3LY-k+dJ7w2soFKiA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.10.1533503236.6153.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <5B6777E6.5070407@zaiboc.net>
 <CAJPayv0iMnoPQs_K+55hL14Wdsm4Ruq9O3LY-k+dJ7w2soFKiA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOJFdbKg9H=jif5hbQ+VrQS-YTVYyCbQzPZANA1DihN0eYCwSA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Aug 5, 2018 at 7:56 PM, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

> peanuts would be a greater drag on your financial resources. Even if many
> or even most ETs think that sending out a Von Neumann probe would be a bad
> idea there will always be somebody who disagrees. And it only takes one.
> And yet we see nothing. it's odd.
>
>>
>>
Are we really so advanced that we could see it even if we were looking
directly at it?

Like the detective looking at the big board of clues around involved
parties, motives, schedules ... still can't "see" who the murderer is,
despite all the connections.
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Mon Aug  6 14:41:13 2018
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2018 09:41:13 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Atheism
In-Reply-To: <CAKTCJyfZNQXKuj4rDNHAQx5it_Wxcb7zGTre6OGEGRgoBGHpFg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.8.1533482395.6153.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <5B676911.5070509@zaiboc.net>
 <CAKTCJyfZNQXKuj4rDNHAQx5it_Wxcb7zGTre6OGEGRgoBGHpFg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbGq+-aYvd_Y2XqhES-=XJk0qsxF00qtWrBb7nwgSGiug@mail.gmail.com>

I trust you'll also
concede that these PERSONS committed ATROCITIES in name of atheism. So
please no more of this bullshit that atheists don't commit atrocities
in name of their belief. They do, just like the theocratic
fundamentalists they claim to oppose.  giulio

How does this work?  "I think there is no god so I am going to kill
someone."  Huh?  In another thread someone mentioned Lenin and his killing
of some scientists because they did not fit his program in some way.  How
did lack of a belief in a god lead to this?  Very confusing.  It would seem
that Lenin's belief in his program for government led to those atrocities,
not some lack of belief.  He happened to be an atheist - also a man, a
Russian, etc.

bill w

On Mon, Aug 6, 2018 at 4:03 AM, Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:

> I trust you'll concede that the regimes that perpetrated the
> atrocities described in the Wikipedia article are not abstract
> entities, but formed by persons like you and I. I trust you'll also
> concede that these PERSONS committed ATROCITIES in name of atheism. So
> please no more of this bullshit that atheists don't commit atrocities
> in name of their belief. They do, just like the theocratic
> fundamentalists they claim to oppose.
>
> On Sun, Aug 5, 2018 at 11:16 PM, Ben Zaiboc <ben at zaiboc.net> wrote:
> >
> > Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > On Aug 5, 2018, at 2:44 PM, Ben Zaiboc <ben at zaiboc.net> wrote:
> >
> > When did you ever hear of anyone committing an atrocity in the name of
> > unbelief?
> >
> >
> > https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_atheism
> >
> >
> > I don't think you understood the question.
> >
> > I'm not asking when did you ever hear of a regime trying to enforce
> atheism
> > on a population for political reasons.
> >
> > I'm asking when did you ever hear of a person committing an atrocity (or
> > indeed anything deserving of the name 'militant',  i.e. involving the
> use of
> > force) in the name of atheism itself?
> > I  don't think I've never heard of a single instance of this.
> >
> > States will employ force, as they've always done, in order to control the
> > population. The most obvious reason for mandating atheism is to remove
> the
> > power of the church. It has nothing to do with the issue of belief, it's
> > more like an up-to-date version of Henry the VIII establishing the
> church of
> > england.
> >
> > --
> > Ben Zaiboc
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > extropy-chat mailing list
> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> >
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Mon Aug  6 14:44:27 2018
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2018 09:44:27 -0500
Subject: [ExI] rational hypocrites
In-Reply-To: <5B676C5B.3090400@zaiboc.net>
References: <mailman.10.1533503236.6153.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <5B676C5B.3090400@zaiboc.net>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEaLhYOGAMvkt4qM2w8PF00dNJDN5mprAsDe-O_nXLsZOA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Aug 5, 2018 at 4:30 PM, Ben Zaiboc <ben at zaiboc.net> wrote:

>
> On 05/08/2018 22:07, BillW wrote:
>
> > Well, you have to believe something.  Really?
>
>
> Bill, I've had this argument many times, with various people.
>
> I think that because we often say 'I believe you' or 'I believe it will
> rain tomorrow', etc., some people say it's impossible to have no 'beliefs',
> but I distinguish between 'beliefs' and 'Beliefs', where the former has no
> particular force, and merely indicates an opinion, and the latter, Capital
> B version indicates an absolute Belief that withstands all evidence to the
> contrary. I don't have any Beliefs (or at least I don't believe I do).
>
> -- Ben Zaiboc
>
>
 "I believe that it's going to rain tomorrow" could express a belief based
on scientific
data.  "I believe in a personal god." does not.  I assume a Belief must be
based on hard science.  There seems to be more than two categories here,
based on different criteria for what is true.

bill w


>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Mon Aug  6 17:15:13 2018
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2018 13:15:13 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Thousands of scientists pledge not to help build killer
 AI robots
In-Reply-To: <CAOJFdbKg9H=jif5hbQ+VrQS-YTVYyCbQzPZANA1DihN0eYCwSA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.10.1533503236.6153.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <5B6777E6.5070407@zaiboc.net>
 <CAJPayv0iMnoPQs_K+55hL14Wdsm4Ruq9O3LY-k+dJ7w2soFKiA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOJFdbKg9H=jif5hbQ+VrQS-YTVYyCbQzPZANA1DihN0eYCwSA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv0yjuG5N8U_gBa0jET35-9wTJUjujJfkBmnLD6tG=Q-gQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Aug 6, 2018 at 8:27 AM, Mike Dougherty <msd001 at gmail.com> wrote:

>>
>> peanuts would be a greater drag on your financial resources. Even if many
>> or even most ETs think that sending out a Von Neumann probe would be a bad
>> idea there will always be somebody who disagrees. And it only takes one.
>> And yet we see nothing. it's odd.
>>
>
> *> Are we really so advanced that we could see it even if we were looking
> directly at it?*


Being advanced has nothing to do with it. I'm not talking about anything
subtle, if one individual sent one Von Neumann probe to one star then in a
instant of time (cosmologically speaking) it would be obvious to a
blind man in a fog bank that the Galaxy had been engineered; but instead we
see all the photons from 200 billion stars radiate uselessly into cold
empty space performing no work and doing no good to anyone.

John K Clark
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From ben at zaiboc.net  Mon Aug  6 18:10:26 2018
From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2018 19:10:26 +0100
Subject: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 179, Issue 5
In-Reply-To: <mailman.12.1533566509.6153.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.12.1533566509.6153.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <5B688F12.1020505@zaiboc.net>


On 06/08/2018 15:41, Giulio Prisco wrote:
> I trust you'll concede that the regimes that perpetrated the
> atrocities described in the Wikipedia article are not abstract
> entities, but formed by persons like you and I. I trust you'll also
> concede that these PERSONS committed ATROCITIES in name of atheism. So
> please no more of this bullshit that atheists don't commit atrocities
> in name of their belief. They do, just like the theocratic
> fundamentalists they claim to oppose.

You trust wrongly. There's a different between an atheist doing 
something because they're power-hungry, greedy, afraid, etc., and doing 
something /because they're an atheist/. The atrocities fall into the 
former category, not the latter. Even if some did, that wouldn't 
invalidate my point. They'd have to be isolated cases, not the general 
rule, and I've still never heard of any.

These PERSONS didn't commit their atrocities /in the name of/ atheism. 
As I said, they committed them for other reasons, usually to do with 
gaining and holding on to power over other people.

"please no more of this bullshit that atheists don't commit atrocities 
in name of their belief"

Well, you're right that that specific sentence is bullshit, just as the 
statement that "people who don't take part in any sport do X in the name 
of their sport" is. Atheism is not a belief system. Surely you 
understand that?

-- 
Ben Zaiboc

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From ben at zaiboc.net  Mon Aug  6 18:12:07 2018
From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2018 19:12:07 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Atheism
In-Reply-To: <mailman.12.1533566509.6153.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.12.1533566509.6153.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <5B688F77.40309@zaiboc.net>

On 06/08/2018 15:41, Giulio Prisco wrote:
> I trust you'll concede that the regimes that perpetrated the
> atrocities described in the Wikipedia article are not abstract
> entities, but formed by persons like you and I. I trust you'll also
> concede that these PERSONS committed ATROCITIES in name of atheism. So
> please no more of this bullshit that atheists don't commit atrocities
> in name of their belief. They do, just like the theocratic
> fundamentalists they claim to oppose.

You trust wrongly. There's a different between an atheist doing 
something because they're power-hungry, greedy, afraid, etc., and doing 
something /because they're an atheist/. The atrocities fall into the 
former category, not the latter. Even if some did, that wouldn't 
invalidate my point. They'd have to be isolated cases, not the general 
rule, and I've still never heard of any.

These PERSONS didn't commit their atrocities /in the name of/ atheism. 
As I said, they committed them for other reasons, usually to do with 
gaining and holding on to power over other people.

"please no more of this bullshit that atheists don't commit atrocities 
in name of their belief"

Well, you're right that that specific sentence is bullshit, just as the 
statement that "people who don't take part in any sport do X in the name 
of their sport" is. Atheism is not a belief system. Surely you 
understand that?

-- 
Ben Zaiboc

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From ben at zaiboc.net  Mon Aug  6 19:00:07 2018
From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2018 20:00:07 +0100
Subject: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 179, Issue 5
In-Reply-To: <mailman.12.1533566509.6153.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.12.1533566509.6153.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <5B689AB7.9040809@zaiboc.net>


On 06/08/2018 15:41, ohn Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:
> ET doesn't even need to travel to the stars, ET just needs to send one 
> Von Neumann probe to one star.Even if we make the ridiculously 
> conservative assumption that ET can't send space probes any faster 
> than we can then almost instantly from a cosmic perspective (less than 
> 50 million years) the entire Galaxy would be unrecognizable. It's not 
> as if this would take some huge commitment on the part of ET's 
> civilization, in fact even a individual could easily do it. If Von 
> Neumann probes are possible at all, and I can't think why they 
> wouldn't be, then they're going to be dirt cheap, you buying a bag of 
> peanuts would be a greater drag on your financial resources. Even if 
> many or even most ETs think that sending out a Von Neumann probe would 
> be a bad idea there will always be somebody who disagrees. And it only 
> takes one. And yet we see nothing. it's odd.
>


OK, I'm convinced. I agree, my idea of a third possibility is 
vanishingly unlikely, because of the 'it only takes one' argument.


Ben Zaiboc
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From ben at zaiboc.net  Mon Aug  6 19:06:07 2018
From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2018 20:06:07 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Replying to the list
In-Reply-To: <mailman.12.1533566509.6153.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.12.1533566509.6153.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <5B689C1F.4050808@zaiboc.net>

I'm finding it remarkably tedious to reply to quoted sections of 
people's posts on the daily digest of this list, keeping the subject, 
and correctly attributing quotes.

Do any of you have any tips to make this easier? I'm constantly cutting 
and pasting fragments of text, and sometimes get it wrong.

I use Thunderbird, if that makes a difference.

(oh, and what happened to the index numbers of the posts? I used to be 
able to look at the contents list at the top, note that I wanted to read 
post No. 8, and rapidly scroll down to No. 8, Now I no longer see the 
numbers on the actual posts, which is another annoyance)

Ben Zaiboc


From sparge at gmail.com  Mon Aug  6 19:50:39 2018
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2018 15:50:39 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Replying to the list
In-Reply-To: <5B689C1F.4050808@zaiboc.net>
References: <mailman.12.1533566509.6153.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <5B689C1F.4050808@zaiboc.net>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2e8-OAMY9Xe0rc0EOK0ySDv=Dr=AFzq8r3viGSr6j9q9g@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Aug 6, 2018 at 3:09 PM Ben Zaiboc <ben at zaiboc.net> wrote:

> I'm finding it remarkably tedious to reply to quoted sections of
> people's posts on the daily digest of this list, keeping the subject,
> and correctly attributing quotes.
>
> Do any of you have any tips to make this easier? I'm constantly cutting
> and pasting fragments of text, and sometimes get it wrong.
>
> I use Thunderbird, if that makes a difference.
>

I don't know Thunderbird but I doubt it's digest-savvy. If you don't want
to switch to a mail agent that is, it's probably easiest to switch to
non-digest list delivery.

-Dave
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From atymes at gmail.com  Mon Aug  6 20:33:08 2018
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2018 13:33:08 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Replying to the list
In-Reply-To: <5B689C1F.4050808@zaiboc.net>
References: <mailman.12.1533566509.6153.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <5B689C1F.4050808@zaiboc.net>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNQZyq5Vy_ZBFTO=a6aT=Txx0L0mmqJKoLXGmLrw8j554w@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Aug 6, 2018, 12:09 PM Ben Zaiboc <ben at zaiboc.net> wrote:

> I'm finding it remarkably tedious to reply to quoted sections of
> people's posts on the daily digest of this list
>

Do any of you have any tips to make this easier?
>

Don't do digest mode.

>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Tue Aug  7 01:03:10 2018
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2018 20:03:10 -0500
Subject: [ExI] female heros?
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEaA32eq802e=+BhJ+_i8Mu2ava22RPD7VejAuC=tWQAag@mail.gmail.com>

OK, I admit the subject is just a try to get some of our female members to
chime in here with my off the wall question for our not-the usual-people
group, and very unusual for the group I am sure, but what's the harm in
asking?

What is a hero?
(hint - Mighty Mouse is not one of the answers)

bill w
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From spike at rainier66.com  Tue Aug  7 02:36:15 2018
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2018 19:36:15 -0700
Subject: [ExI] female heros?
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEaA32eq802e=+BhJ+_i8Mu2ava22RPD7VejAuC=tWQAag@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaA32eq802e=+BhJ+_i8Mu2ava22RPD7VejAuC=tWQAag@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <005701d42df7$6a56c330$3f044990$@rainier66.com>

Eh, BillW, I fear there are no women left on ExI who post with any regularity.  Once in a long while we hear from Samantha Adkins.

 

spike

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace
Sent: Monday, August 6, 2018 6:03 PM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: [ExI] female heros?

 

OK, I admit the subject is just a try to get some of our female members to chime in here with my off the wall question for our not-the usual-people group, and very unusual for the group I am sure, but what's the harm in asking?

 

What is a hero?

(hint - Mighty Mouse is not one of the answers)

 

bill w

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From giulio at gmail.com  Tue Aug  7 05:23:37 2018
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2018 07:23:37 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Atheism
In-Reply-To: <5B688F77.40309@zaiboc.net>
References: <mailman.12.1533566509.6153.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <5B688F77.40309@zaiboc.net>
Message-ID: <CAKTCJycSZ1dxCFRnmeN6vXdTSLh3SrGvDDf=X3LoKF+4Q7=s3w@mail.gmail.com>

I can agree that most people who commit atrocities aren't motivated by
ideology, but by "other reasons, usually to do with gaining and
holding on to power over other people," But you can say this about
everyone, including nazis and violent religious fundamentalists.
Atheism IS a belief system when it becomes militant and intolerant.
Let's agree to disagree.



On Mon, Aug 6, 2018 at 8:12 PM, Ben Zaiboc <ben at zaiboc.net> wrote:
> On 06/08/2018 15:41, Giulio Prisco wrote:
>
> I trust you'll concede that the regimes that perpetrated the
> atrocities described in the Wikipedia article are not abstract
> entities, but formed by persons like you and I. I trust you'll also
> concede that these PERSONS committed ATROCITIES in name of atheism. So
> please no more of this bullshit that atheists don't commit atrocities
> in name of their belief. They do, just like the theocratic
> fundamentalists they claim to oppose.
>
>
> You trust wrongly. There's a different between an atheist doing something
> because they're power-hungry, greedy, afraid, etc., and doing something
> because they're an atheist. The atrocities fall into the former category,
> not the latter. Even if some did, that wouldn't invalidate my point. They'd
> have to be isolated cases, not the general rule, and I've still never heard
> of any.
>
> These PERSONS didn't commit their atrocities in the name of atheism. As I
> said, they committed them for other reasons, usually to do with gaining and
> holding on to power over other people.
>
> "please no more of this bullshit that atheists don't commit atrocities in
> name of their belief"
>
> Well, you're right that that specific sentence is bullshit, just as the
> statement that "people who don't take part in any sport do X in the name of
> their sport" is. Atheism is not a belief system. Surely you understand that?
>
> --
> Ben Zaiboc
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>


From foozler83 at gmail.com  Tue Aug  7 11:59:49 2018
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2018 06:59:49 -0500
Subject: [ExI] female heros?
In-Reply-To: <005701d42df7$6a56c330$3f044990$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaA32eq802e=+BhJ+_i8Mu2ava22RPD7VejAuC=tWQAag@mail.gmail.com>
 <005701d42df7$6a56c330$3f044990$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYXhRswMNNpLXu=EVs7Sd3iC5MFV3nj2+_LM0z2YZ_u-g@mail.gmail.com>

I thought Tara posted a small thing fairly recently.  Anyway, it wasn't
just for the girls.  I wanted everyone's opinion - looks like I will get no
one's.
bill w

On Mon, Aug 6, 2018 at 9:36 PM, <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:

> Eh, BillW, I fear there are no women left on ExI who post with any
> regularity.  Once in a long while we hear from Samantha Adkins.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On Behalf
> Of *William Flynn Wallace
> *Sent:* Monday, August 6, 2018 6:03 PM
> *To:* ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> *Subject:* [ExI] female heros?
>
>
>
> OK, I admit the subject is just a try to get some of our female members to
> chime in here with my off the wall question for our not-the usual-people
> group, and very unusual for the group I am sure, but what's the harm in
> asking?
>
>
>
> What is a hero?
>
> (hint - Mighty Mouse is not one of the answers)
>
>
>
> bill w
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From sen.otaku at gmail.com  Tue Aug  7 15:04:28 2018
From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard)
Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2018 10:04:28 -0500
Subject: [ExI] female heros?
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEaA32eq802e=+BhJ+_i8Mu2ava22RPD7VejAuC=tWQAag@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaA32eq802e=+BhJ+_i8Mu2ava22RPD7VejAuC=tWQAag@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <041E06FB-0FD5-4B81-AC06-8A1C5554A525@gmail.com>

I?m not sure exactly what you mean by ?hero?? Because ?hero? can mean a lot of things. It could mean a ?superhero?, or it could be your role model, or someone who inspires you so much that you nearly worship them, or someone who does something selflessly brave, like running into a burning building to save someone, or someone who will speak up in a scary situation to protect you. 

Normally when I use ?hero? I usually would mean it in all of the ways except for the ?superhero? way. I guess the general trait that they would share would just be that they inspire you to do and be better.

Let me sort of explain myself by way of example:

Growing up I was very inspired by Hawking but got really upset (and disillusioned) when I heard about his divorce. I have a terminal case of hero worship for Elon Musk, but it seems increasingly like he?s not that great a guy (but shit he?s inspiring, so I continue to look up to him despite his shortcomings). I have always been fascinated with ?Cap?n Chrunch? the phone phreaker.

In terms of like a ?role model? I looked up to when I was growing up, that would have been Buffy, Xena, and Samantha Carter & Daniel Jackson from Stargate SG-1, as well and Blossom from Powerpuff Girls. When I was younger I would have answered these as my heroes.

In my teen years I identified heavily with Alanna from the Tamora Pierce books: a young woman who wants to be a knight, so she pretends to be her twin brother. I also identified with Milla in the Garth Nix books: a shield maiden who lives in an icy world of near total darkness, whose clan survives mainly by whale hunting.

I like to read about acts of wartime heroism and perseverance, such as Finland?s ?White Death?, Frances ?Cher Ami?, the Japanese soldier in Korea who never stopped fighting the war, the Italian bicyclist who helped all those Jews get fake papers. To me, these kinds of things are extremely heroic, and they?re inspiring, I would even call them heroes, but I don?t identify with them the same way as the people in the first three bits. They?re not ?my hero?.

If someone were to come up and ask me, ?Who?s your hero?? I would either Elon Musk at the moment, but clearly that hasn?t always been the case.

What would you consider to be ?heroic?, and what would define a ?hero?? And who would you consider to be your hero, if you have one?

I?m not sure it?s going to have a heavily gendered difference in what people consider heroism, that probably would be more tied to cultural views. For example, I?ve heard a lot of people call the Japanese soldier I mentioned earlier some very nasty thing and have very negative attitudes towards him. Which confuses me, but oh well. A lot of people might also question my designation of a pidgin as heroic, but I stand by it.

The gendered difference will probably come in with other ideas of hero, such as an inspiration, or a role model. For me, clearly, I was very interested in the ?strong woman in the world? which is just a desire for personal adventure. But you can so see an  overarching ?smart vanguard? theme as well, a real desire to be someone incredibly intelligent who can change the boundaries of what is considered possible.

So yeah, what/who is a hero, and is that different from your idea of ?heroic? actions?

> On Aug 6, 2018, at 20:03, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> OK, I admit the subject is just a try to get some of our female members to chime in here with my off the wall question for our not-the usual-people group, and very unusual for the group I am sure, but what's the harm in asking?
> 
> What is a hero?
> (hint - Mighty Mouse is not one of the answers)
> 
> bill w
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
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From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Tue Aug  7 15:16:14 2018
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2018 08:16:14 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Prisoner of bad philosophy: Carl Sagan couldn?t allow >
 himself to hope
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB508RXN32to=EermAxZ9fwDJreji-cYFaYg2HZNckK=aQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Aug 5, 2018 at 8:19 AM,  Stathis Papaioannou <stathisp at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sun, 5 Aug 2018 at 2:54 pm, Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Stathis Papaioannou <stathisp at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> snip

>> > For some atheists it is upsetting that
>> so many base their lives around religious belief given this, and they feel
>> obliged to tell them why they are wrong at every opportunity; for other
>> atheists peoples? stupidity doesn?t bother them.
>>
>> You wonder a bit why the behavior was selected of telling a person
>> when they have stupid beliefs?  It's not a direct survival trait.
>
> Being rational has survival value. Philosophy doesn?t have direct survival
> value, but it is a side-effect of valuing rationality.

You need to be very careful when thinking about traits that were
selected.  It's genes that are selected.  "Rational" is usually
considered a trait local to the individual.  But people are often
*not* rational from their local viewpoint.  However, if you look at
the world from the viewpoint of a gene, a lot of this non-rational
behavior is resolved as rational (from that viewpoint) after all.

The reason is that genes don't reside only in the individual but in
their children and relatives.  Is it rational to die for your tribe?
Not from the individual's viewpoint!  But it is from the viewpoint of
the genes, it often is if more copies of the genes exist after the
selection event than otherwise would.

Most of human evolution happened in small related groups.  We have a
tendency to interact with people as if they were part of our tribe
since living in groups larger than a village is too recent to have a
large effect on human genes.  I suppose a trait for attempting to
modify non-rational thinking in related tribe members could be
selected.  The cost of trying is usually low.  The genes saved in
relatives are a statistical fraction of the genes you carry.

If you want to consider a recent selection event, consider the
Children's Crusade.

Keith


From sen.otaku at gmail.com  Tue Aug  7 15:18:00 2018
From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard)
Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2018 10:18:00 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Atheism
In-Reply-To: <5B676A48.4010408@zaiboc.net>
References: <mailman.10.1533503236.6153.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <5B676A48.4010408@zaiboc.net>
Message-ID: <4FDF3A3B-16A1-4067-9B6D-6BBCF4AF972A@gmail.com>

I think that the reason you keep getting these arguments are because its what people have been taught to reply with by well meaning teachers and personalities. 

I think that many authentically religious people (not people who are members for social reasons) have very different actual reasons for their personal belief. Generally, I think people either believe just because they have an unshakable nagging feeling it is true, or because they have had personal religious experiences, or both. 

However these things are extremely private, and very sensitive. For many religious people, these are some of their most foundational ideas about the world as well as being extremely emotional. People don?t want to open up because the fear and pain of ridicule is very sharp.

Emotionally and mentally it is mush safer to offer up these cookie cutter ?non-answers?, though I don't think people consider it consciously.

I don?t know that I would say that I?m ?religious? per se, but I do, against what all the logical parts of my mind say, believe extremely strongly in ?higher powers?. I think that people like myself (I?m also very prone to superstition) are just generally inclined towards supernatural belief even in spite of our own common sense. I know it?s logically dumb but I just can?t help myself.


> 
>> On 05/08/2018 22:07, Spike wrote:
>> When dealing with religious people, there is a line of reasoning I find very common: life without religion is pointless, meaningless, etc, because it has no significant long term? anything.  So, they choose to believe because it gives life meaning.
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> A related line of reasoning hold that only religion offers a basis for morality, and a life without morality would harm others, so? they choose to believe in order to avoid harm to 
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Tue Aug  7 15:39:06 2018
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2018 10:39:06 -0500
Subject: [ExI] evolution and crazy thinking
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv2jizvG+VjMj9JeVnu0oS-w=DovjT3c963Ws5ZgWnnC8Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEZCzMNRvUvQ-=rMfzu=+AshSZZQmSgRnCeXbWacHRfJWw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv2jizvG+VjMj9JeVnu0oS-w=DovjT3c963Ws5ZgWnnC8Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEY8MkpAo-ZQUx7ysY0nPG2SuKSCUmBWJ+ebopgnHfzs7w@mail.gmail.com>

I am utterly unable to explain the appeal Donald Trump has for so many
otherwise intelligently seeming people - Joh Clark

I read something in the paper today that might give us a clue:  seems some
people just don't give a mouse's ass what goes on in DC, as it is
apparently dysfunctional and very unpopular.  When Trump lies, contradicts
himself, makes terrible decisions, and so on, they are laughing their asses
off at the shenanigans - after all, he gets away with it all of this.  The
dumber it is the better.
bill w

On Sat, Jul 14, 2018 at 12:31 PM, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sat, Jul 14, 2018 at 11:10 AM, William Flynn Wallace <
> foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> *>Pondering for the nth time about why humans got so far with all the
>> crazy, illogical cognitive gadgets that inhabit our forebrains.  I have
>> repeatedly mentioned to this group the cognitive errors or biases listed in
>> Wikipedia. Not being any kind of expert on evolution, I want someone(s) to
>> explain just how evolution can explain these unfortunate thinking errors.*
>
>
> Even if you had perfect knowledge of the problem at hand (and in the real
> world that Evolution works in you never do) there is no general algorithm
> that would always enable you to always make the best choice all the time.
> And time is an issue too, a mediocre solution you have right now about what
> to do about that leopard that is about to jump onto you is far superior
> from a Evolutionary point of view than a perfect solution found an hour
> from now, that's the only disadvantage to the Scientific Method and the
> reason it is not instinctual.
>
>
> From the list at:
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases
>
>        >* Anthropomorphism and Anthropocentric thinking*
> Anthropomorphism can be a valuable tool, animals sometimes do act in ways
> that are not entirely dissimilar to the ways humans act, and even
> physicists say to themselves things like ?the electron wants to go straight
> but the magnetic field forces it to move in a circle?.
>
> *> The tendency to give an opinion that is more socially correct than
> one's true opinion, so as to avoid offending anyone.*
>
> Not unnecessarily turning members of your own species into enemies seems
> like part of a good survival strategy to me.
>
> *> The tendency of our perception to be affected by our recurring thoughts*
>
>
>
> We have no choice , we just don't have enough brainpower to deeply analyze
> all the sensory data received so we must prioritize it according to its
> estimated importance, usually that estimate is mostly right but sometimes
> we miss something important but thats the way it goes, we can't do
> everything.
>
>
>> *> When given a choice between several options, the tendency to favor the
>> default one.*
>
>
> If you estimate there is a 50% chance that doing nothing will make things
> worse and a 50% chance that doing something will make things worse then it
> would be logical to do nothing and hope for the best, at least that way you
> save energy.
>
>
> *>The tendency to think that future probabilities are altered by past
>> events, when in reality they are unchanged.*
>
>
>
> That is certainly an error but probably wasn't a big handicap to our
> prehistoric ancestors and so the gene for that mode of thinking did not die
> out.
>
> *> The tendency to do (or believe) things because many other people do*
>
>
> The argument from authority is not always a bad one, I can't independently
> test everything, I've got to trust that some people are specialists and
> know more about some aspect of reality than I do.
>
> *> The tendency to reject new evidence that contradicts a paradigm*
>
>
> It's a good thing that there is a resistance to changing a paradigm.
> Paradigms got to be paradigms because over the years they have done a very
> good job, they should not be rejected unless there is overwhelming evidence
> for doing so.
>
>
> *> When better-informed people find it extremely difficult to think about
>> problems from the perspective of lesser-informed people*
>
>
>
> That one completely stumps me, I am utterly unable to explain the appeal
> Donald Trump has for so many otherwise intelligently seeming people nor,
> considering the current situation, the continuing popularity of third
> political parties.
>
> John K Clark
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Tue Aug  7 15:45:30 2018
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2018 10:45:30 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Atheism
In-Reply-To: <4FDF3A3B-16A1-4067-9B6D-6BBCF4AF972A@gmail.com>
References: <mailman.10.1533503236.6153.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <5B676A48.4010408@zaiboc.net> <4FDF3A3B-16A1-4067-9B6D-6BBCF4AF972A@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEa-ZF5N-tKus+8bnibEsWMmSm8jfp9AZAfp9CfKr8zUdQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Aug 7, 2018 at 10:18 AM, SR Ballard <sen.otaku at gmail.com> wrote:

> I think that the reason you keep getting these arguments are because its
> what people have been taught to reply with by well meaning teachers and
> personalities.
>
> I think that many authentically religious people (not people who are
> members for social reasons) have very different actual reasons for their
> personal belief. Generally, I think people either believe just because they
> have an unshakable nagging feeling it is true, or because they have had
> personal religious experiences, or both.
>
> However these things are extremely private, and very sensitive. For many
> religious people, these are some of their most foundational ideas about the
> world as well as being extremely emotional. People don?t want to open up
> because the fear and pain of ridicule is very sharp.
>
> Emotionally and mentally it is mush safer to offer up these cookie cutter
> ?non-answers?, though I don't think people consider it consciously.
>
> I don?t know that I would say that I?m ?religious? per se, but I do,
> against what all the logical parts of my mind say, believe extremely
> strongly in ?higher powers?. I think that people like myself (I?m also very
> prone to superstition) are just generally inclined towards supernatural
> belief even in spite of our own common sense. I know it?s logically dumb
> but I just can?t help myself.
>

Well, you are far from the only one.  To me, metaphysics makes no sense at
all (I am an INTJ), but clearly it does to many people, now and in the
past.  Many primitive tribes depended on the tribes staying together etc.
and following (really believing, not just giving lip service) the tribe's
religion.  Psychology of religion is not one of my areas to say the least,
but Ill bet that there are many studies out there asking why people give up
their religions and why people start being religious.  I would not be a bit
surprised if part of it were not genetic.  I would also be surprised if
some people did not hear or read about some famous person who was an
atheist and think that if that person doesn't believe, i don't think i
should either.  Who am I to judge?  Mark Twain may have had some influence
on me.  I was a fairly strong Christian early in life, but read Twain, some
about origins of the Bible, people about whom it was said that they were
born of a virgin, educated their elders, did miracles like raising from the
dead - check out what was said about Hercules.

A large part of religion seems to me to be about hero worship, which is
part of why I posted that question.

bill w

>
>
>
> On 05/08/2018 22:07, Spike wrote:
>
> When dealing with religious people, there is a line of reasoning I find
> very common: life without religion is pointless, meaningless, etc, because
> it has no significant long term? anything.  So, they choose to believe
> because it gives life meaning.
>
>
>
> A related line of reasoning hold that only religion offers a basis for
> morality, and a life without morality would harm others, so? they choose to
> believe in order to avoid harm to
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Tue Aug  7 15:47:02 2018
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2018 10:47:02 -0500
Subject: [ExI] female heros?
In-Reply-To: <005701d42df7$6a56c330$3f044990$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaA32eq802e=+BhJ+_i8Mu2ava22RPD7VejAuC=tWQAag@mail.gmail.com>
 <005701d42df7$6a56c330$3f044990$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZKmkEqmv3iuUOb5G9F_Qr1FSV1zk52CUn05NYDqgPnCA@mail.gmail.com>

eh, Spike?  Ballard looked up to Xena, Buffy and Samantha - would you guess
that she is female?  bill w

On Mon, Aug 6, 2018 at 9:36 PM, <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:

> Eh, BillW, I fear there are no women left on ExI who post with any
> regularity.  Once in a long while we hear from Samantha Adkins.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On Behalf
> Of *William Flynn Wallace
> *Sent:* Monday, August 6, 2018 6:03 PM
> *To:* ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> *Subject:* [ExI] female heros?
>
>
>
> OK, I admit the subject is just a try to get some of our female members to
> chime in here with my off the wall question for our not-the usual-people
> group, and very unusual for the group I am sure, but what's the harm in
> asking?
>
>
>
> What is a hero?
>
> (hint - Mighty Mouse is not one of the answers)
>
>
>
> bill w
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Tue Aug  7 16:05:36 2018
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2018 09:05:36 -0700
Subject: [ExI] female heros?
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEZKmkEqmv3iuUOb5G9F_Qr1FSV1zk52CUn05NYDqgPnCA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaA32eq802e=+BhJ+_i8Mu2ava22RPD7VejAuC=tWQAag@mail.gmail.com>
 <005701d42df7$6a56c330$3f044990$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEZKmkEqmv3iuUOb5G9F_Qr1FSV1zk52CUn05NYDqgPnCA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00ef01d42e68$7ac82300$70586900$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace

Subject: Re: [ExI] female heros?

 

eh, Spike?  Ballard looked up to Xena, Buffy and Samantha - would you guess that she is female?  bill w

 

 

 

Ja, I wasn?t aware of SB Ballard?s gender.  We could have other women here who never thought it necessary to reveal that information.  On the internet we are all genderless and colorless if we choose to be.  I see it as one of the truly cool things about the internet: you have privacy here if you want it, complete transparency if you want it.

 

spike

 

 

 

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From kgh1kgh2 at gmail.com  Tue Aug  7 16:54:10 2018
From: kgh1kgh2 at gmail.com (Kevin George Haskell)
Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2018 12:54:10 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Female Heroes
Message-ID: <5DEF4CDE-9907-4F90-8117-5E21BAA08D82@gmail.com>

Ayn Rand, Maggy Thatcher, Amara Angelica and Sarah Black for editing KurzweilAI.net, my mother, and the Cosmic Divine aspect of the Supreme Creator. That about sums it up unless I'm missing any.



From johnkclark at gmail.com  Tue Aug  7 17:26:34 2018
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2018 13:26:34 -0400
Subject: [ExI] evolution and crazy thinking
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEY8MkpAo-ZQUx7ysY0nPG2SuKSCUmBWJ+ebopgnHfzs7w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEZCzMNRvUvQ-=rMfzu=+AshSZZQmSgRnCeXbWacHRfJWw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv2jizvG+VjMj9JeVnu0oS-w=DovjT3c963Ws5ZgWnnC8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEY8MkpAo-ZQUx7ysY0nPG2SuKSCUmBWJ+ebopgnHfzs7w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv35DqmrPi16m_6sQ08J_VQzw=k3aJdOmU3tsFLyhzOVKQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Aug 7, 2018 at 11:39 AM, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
wrote:

>I am utterly unable to explain the appeal Donald Trump has for so many
>> otherwise intelligently seeming people - Joh
>> n
>> Clark
>
>
> *>I read something in the paper today that might give us a clue:  seems
> some people just don't give a mouse's ass what goes on in DC, as it is
> apparently dysfunctional and very unpopular.  When Trump lies, contradicts
> himself, makes terrible decisions, and so on, they are laughing their asses
> off at the shenanigans - after all, he gets away with it all of this.  The
> dumber it is the better.*
>
At one time I was laughing too. When the rumors first started that Trump
might announce his candidacy I hoped he would, I thought it would be fun
comic relief. I wasn't worried because I was absolutely certain nobody
would vote for a man of such stupefying ignorance and stupidity except for
a few hillbillies, but of course being certain and being correct are two
entirely different things. It's hard to laugh now knowing that a creature
like that could kill me and everyone I know and every living person I've
ever even heard of in less time than it takes me to write this post. But
lets have some hope it might not be that bad, maybe he won't kill us, maybe
he'll just impoverish us by abolishing free trade.

By the way
,
people
are talking about a "Blue Wave" in November and the Democrats taking
control of the House and maybe even the Senate, I have no idea if that will
happen but if it does you can bet your bottom dollar Trump will start
screaming "fake election". And if he doesn't get reelected in 2020 he will
scream even louder and declare himself Presadent For Life
:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09ZCJnf-qMw

John K Clark







https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09ZCJnf-qMw
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From natasha at natasha.cc  Tue Aug  7 17:48:04 2018
From: natasha at natasha.cc (natasha at natasha.cc)
Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2018 10:48:04 -0700
Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?female_heros=3F?=
Message-ID: <20180807104804.d116f5e08926a7036dd11a0a743afc19.42c56f9491.wbe@email17.godaddy.com>

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From natasha at natasha.cc  Tue Aug  7 18:00:42 2018
From: natasha at natasha.cc (natasha at natasha.cc)
Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2018 11:00:42 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Way Cool Festival
Message-ID: <20180807110042.d116f5e08926a7036dd11a0a743afc19.ffd1b3b85e.wbe@email17.godaddy.com>

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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Tue Aug  7 22:03:49 2018
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2018 18:03:49 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Atheism
In-Reply-To: <CAKTCJycSZ1dxCFRnmeN6vXdTSLh3SrGvDDf=X3LoKF+4Q7=s3w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.12.1533566509.6153.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <5B688F77.40309@zaiboc.net>
 <CAKTCJycSZ1dxCFRnmeN6vXdTSLh3SrGvDDf=X3LoKF+4Q7=s3w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv1ihayxStOf6PObnO96y8HyPdOJZnfCQCZB6WFr6GtUKw@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Aug 7, 2018 at 1:23 AM, Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:

>
> *Atheism IS a belief system*


So is the multiplication table.

>
> *when it becomes militant and intolerant.*


If I say believers are imbeciles that is not being intolerant, I'm just
expressing my opinion and the believer is perfectly free to say the same
thing about me.
Pelting somebody with words is not violen
t
, pelting somebody with rocks is; and so is burning somebody at the stake,
a favorite pastime of the pious.

 John K Clark
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Tue Aug  7 22:16:35 2018
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2018 18:16:35 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Prisoner of bad philosophy: Carl Sagan couldn?t allow >
 himself to hope
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB508RXN32to=EermAxZ9fwDJreji-cYFaYg2HZNckK=aQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB508RXN32to=EermAxZ9fwDJreji-cYFaYg2HZNckK=aQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv0Xm5WyoDuL_XKBHzWAcriWiNiRWi+V2A3pUtzLrmU40g@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Aug 7, 2018 at 11:16 AM, Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com>
wrote:

* >Is it rational to die for your tribe? Not from the individual's
> viewpoint!  But it is from the viewpoint of the genes*


Yes but it can work the other way too. Is it rational to use a condom? Not
from the genes viewpoint but it is from the individuals viewpoint.

John K Clark
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From sen.otaku at gmail.com  Wed Aug  8 15:11:19 2018
From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard)
Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2018 10:11:19 -0500
Subject: [ExI] female heros?
In-Reply-To: <00ef01d42e68$7ac82300$70586900$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaA32eq802e=+BhJ+_i8Mu2ava22RPD7VejAuC=tWQAag@mail.gmail.com>
 <005701d42df7$6a56c330$3f044990$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEZKmkEqmv3iuUOb5G9F_Qr1FSV1zk52CUn05NYDqgPnCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <00ef01d42e68$7ac82300$70586900$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <0DE5F0EE-A479-488D-B1CD-C71EA4A7670F@gmail.com>

Am I allowed to guess if I am female? Lol.


> On Aug 7, 2018, at 11:05, <spike at rainier66.com> <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:
> 
>  
>  
> From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace
> 
> Subject: Re: [ExI] female heros?
>  
> eh, Spike?  Ballard looked up to Xena, Buffy and Samantha - would you guess that she is female?  bill w
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From sen.otaku at gmail.com  Wed Aug  8 15:19:31 2018
From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard)
Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2018 10:19:31 -0500
Subject: [ExI] evolution and crazy thinking
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv35DqmrPi16m_6sQ08J_VQzw=k3aJdOmU3tsFLyhzOVKQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEZCzMNRvUvQ-=rMfzu=+AshSZZQmSgRnCeXbWacHRfJWw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv2jizvG+VjMj9JeVnu0oS-w=DovjT3c963Ws5ZgWnnC8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEY8MkpAo-ZQUx7ysY0nPG2SuKSCUmBWJ+ebopgnHfzs7w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv35DqmrPi16m_6sQ08J_VQzw=k3aJdOmU3tsFLyhzOVKQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20F7FB21-C2F9-4B06-9131-4C6157242E44@gmail.com>

Statistical trends over past election cycles point towards a ?blue wave?, because generally the president?s party lose seats in the first midterm election. I think the only recent violation of that trend was the midterm directly after 9/11.

This is also the same trend data which suggested that the Republican would become president in 2016. And while presidents usually get two terms, I think Trump might be the exception in this case. 

But it?s far too soon to tell. Hopefully in the next year the Democratic party can find a candidate that people want to vote FOR rather than simply begging people to vote AGAINST the other guy. It?s depressing when the election is framed not as ?I?m better than the other guy? but as ?The other guy is even worse than I am?.


> By the way, people are talking about a "Blue Wave" in November and the Democrats taking control of the House and maybe even the Senate, I have no idea if that will happen but if it does you can bet your bottom dollar Trump will start screaming "fake election". And if he doesn't get reelected in 2020 he will scream even louder and declare himself Presadent For Life:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09ZCJnf-qMw
> 
> John K Clark
> 
> 
>    
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09ZCJnf-qMw
> 
>  
> 
>  
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
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From spike at rainier66.com  Wed Aug  8 15:27:08 2018
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2018 08:27:08 -0700
Subject: [ExI] female heros?
In-Reply-To: <0DE5F0EE-A479-488D-B1CD-C71EA4A7670F@gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaA32eq802e=+BhJ+_i8Mu2ava22RPD7VejAuC=tWQAag@mail.gmail.com>
 <005701d42df7$6a56c330$3f044990$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEZKmkEqmv3iuUOb5G9F_Qr1FSV1zk52CUn05NYDqgPnCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <00ef01d42e68$7ac82300$70586900$@rainier66.com>
 <0DE5F0EE-A479-488D-B1CD-C71EA4A7670F@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <003d01d42f2c$45de4c90$d19ae5b0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of SR Ballard
Subject: Re: [ExI] female heros?

 

 

 

 

 

>?Am I allowed to guess if I am female? Lol.

 

 

 

Well SB, we are being told the whole notion of gender is really a kind of fiction or over-generalization.  We are whatever gender we are inside, but that seems like it could change over time, or change as a function of one?s mood perhaps.  Since psychology became well-known we have all these internal things they had us learn in 101, the ego, the super-ego, the id, and all that stuff, and the professors told us about having a feminine side if we thought of ourselves as male.  It was then that I discovered my feminine side is a lesbian.  Both sides of us like women.  We are that way, always been that way, no need for us to repent or get religion to make it go away.

 

So when it comes right down to it, how can any of us really know what the heck is our gender?

 

I have a plan however.  If we ever manage to get uploading to work, I have a whole bunch of experimentation in mind for various configuration of genitals we could try, hardware to go with the software so to speak.

 

spike

 





 

 

 

On Aug 7, 2018, at 11:05, <spike at rainier66.com <mailto:spike at rainier66.com> > <spike at rainier66.com <mailto:spike at rainier66.com> > wrote:

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> > On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace

Subject: Re: [ExI] female heros?

 

eh, Spike?  Ballard looked up to Xena, Buffy and Samantha - would you guess that she is female?  bill w

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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Wed Aug  8 16:00:17 2018
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2018 11:00:17 -0500
Subject: [ExI] female heros?
In-Reply-To: <003d01d42f2c$45de4c90$d19ae5b0$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaA32eq802e=+BhJ+_i8Mu2ava22RPD7VejAuC=tWQAag@mail.gmail.com>
 <005701d42df7$6a56c330$3f044990$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEZKmkEqmv3iuUOb5G9F_Qr1FSV1zk52CUn05NYDqgPnCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <00ef01d42e68$7ac82300$70586900$@rainier66.com>
 <0DE5F0EE-A479-488D-B1CD-C71EA4A7670F@gmail.com>
 <003d01d42f2c$45de4c90$d19ae5b0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbNSqPWDj1a6E7fhA8-rwE6fFbToXWh28DPMhVowM8cBQ@mail.gmail.com>

>
>
> I have a plan however.  If we ever manage to get uploading to work, I have
> a whole bunch of experimentation in mind for various configuration of
> genitals we could try, hardware to go with the software so to speak.
>
>
>
> spike
>

Oh, please don't spare us the details!

bill w

>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Aug 7, 2018, at 11:05, <spike at rainier66.com> <spike at rainier66.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On Behalf
> Of *William Flynn Wallace
>
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] female heros?
>
>
>
> eh, Spike?  Ballard looked up to Xena, Buffy and Samantha - would you
> guess that she is female?  bill w
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Wed Aug  8 16:25:18 2018
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2018 09:25:18 -0700
Subject: [ExI] female heros?
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEbNSqPWDj1a6E7fhA8-rwE6fFbToXWh28DPMhVowM8cBQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaA32eq802e=+BhJ+_i8Mu2ava22RPD7VejAuC=tWQAag@mail.gmail.com>
 <005701d42df7$6a56c330$3f044990$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEZKmkEqmv3iuUOb5G9F_Qr1FSV1zk52CUn05NYDqgPnCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <00ef01d42e68$7ac82300$70586900$@rainier66.com>
 <0DE5F0EE-A479-488D-B1CD-C71EA4A7670F@gmail.com>
 <003d01d42f2c$45de4c90$d19ae5b0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEbNSqPWDj1a6E7fhA8-rwE6fFbToXWh28DPMhVowM8cBQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <009701d42f34$65c57030$31505090$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace
Sent: Wednesday, August 8, 2018 9:00 AM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: Re: [ExI] female heros?

 

 

 

I have a plan however.  If we ever manage to get uploading to work, I have a whole bunch of experimentation in mind for various configuration of genitals we could try, hardware to go with the software so to speak.

 

spike

 

Oh, please don't spare us the details!

 

bill w

 

 

 

Well, if we can simulate something in software, we can simulate more of that, or multiple copies of that.  We currently have multiple sensual zones and one set of genitals, but I see no reason why we couldn?t have multiple copies of all these. 

 

My hapless software mate would have no repose from my endless urgent desire to slake my lustful desires.  

 

But there may be a downside to that.  I am constantly pondering a question I have had since I was younger than I am now: Fermi?s paradox.  Where is everyone?  If we figure out how to simulate sexual climax, most intelligent entities would lose interest in day to day living and would go into constant multiple-site orgasm mode.  This is the closest thing I can think of to John Clark?s notion of digital drug abuse.  Simulated humanity could screw ourselves to death.

 

spike

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From sen.otaku at gmail.com  Wed Aug  8 17:01:34 2018
From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard)
Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2018 12:01:34 -0500
Subject: [ExI] female heros?
In-Reply-To: <009701d42f34$65c57030$31505090$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaA32eq802e=+BhJ+_i8Mu2ava22RPD7VejAuC=tWQAag@mail.gmail.com>
 <005701d42df7$6a56c330$3f044990$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEZKmkEqmv3iuUOb5G9F_Qr1FSV1zk52CUn05NYDqgPnCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <00ef01d42e68$7ac82300$70586900$@rainier66.com>
 <0DE5F0EE-A479-488D-B1CD-C71EA4A7670F@gmail.com>
 <003d01d42f2c$45de4c90$d19ae5b0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEbNSqPWDj1a6E7fhA8-rwE6fFbToXWh28DPMhVowM8cBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <009701d42f34$65c57030$31505090$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CABf9QbCcu8Jd95FB+LkiEVQK+o2mVQDnXoDR=gT+gL5UShB_jg@mail.gmail.com>

Why should we suppose that Uploading would lead to sex addiction? To a
certian degree, sexuality and sexual expression are tied to hormone
production. For example, when very depressed, many people do not engage in
any form of sexual behavior, including maturbation, having neither the
energy nor the interest. On the other hand, testosterone, regardless of its
cause, increases arousal.

So if we were to upload, having no more hormones, we would certianly still
be able to become addicted to sexual pleasure, just like some young men I
know spend more time gratifying themselves sexually than anything else. But
when uploaded, without the reminder of hormones, many people just might not
think about it.

For example, let's say that we all upload. Living in our virtual world
together, we have no need to eat, but it persists for a long time as a well
ingrained social habit. People design their own virtual homes and they
throw virtual dinner parties and everyone enjoys food. Many newly uploaded
people would probably design homes with bathrooms, even though they no
longer need to bathe or use a toilet. Over time, we can imagine that people
would stop designing bathrooms with toilets because they don't need to use
them. How long, do you think, it would be before you realized that one of
your friend's virtual houses had no tiolets?

Or sleep for example. If after uploading humans can sleep and dream, but no
longer require sleep and don't ever get sleepy, how long might it be before
you realized it had been days or weeks or months or maybe even years since
you slept?

I think that after initial experimentation sexually, that quite a few
people, freed from the obligations of hormone directed needs would
generally not think about it after a while. Of course there would still be
enthusiasts and hobbyists and so on.

But people might just not form pair-bonds  or sex or have any interest in
children and things like that after a certian amount of time after being
uploaded.



>
>
> But there may be a downside to that.  I am constantly pondering a question
> I have had since I was younger than I am now: Fermi?s paradox.  Where is
> everyone?  If we figure out how to simulate sexual climax, most intelligent
> entities would lose interest in day to day living and would go into
> constant multiple-site orgasm mode.  This is the closest thing I can think
> of to John Clark?s notion of digital drug abuse.  Simulated humanity could
> screw ourselves to death.
>
>
>
> spike
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From sen.otaku at gmail.com  Wed Aug  8 17:04:40 2018
From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard)
Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2018 12:04:40 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Prisoner of bad philosophy: Carl Sagan couldn?t allow >
 himself to hope
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv0Xm5WyoDuL_XKBHzWAcriWiNiRWi+V2A3pUtzLrmU40g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB508RXN32to=EermAxZ9fwDJreji-cYFaYg2HZNckK=aQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv0Xm5WyoDuL_XKBHzWAcriWiNiRWi+V2A3pUtzLrmU40g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABf9QbDuDzoynTEt+ZeAU8=FKFU9E86LS6yB5Bh2POSbZAHTJA@mail.gmail.com>

Well, it might be rational to use the condom from the gene's point of view
if the offspring which are produced, though fewer, have a higher chance of
producing offspring.

We'll know in a few hundred years.

On Tue, Aug 7, 2018 at 5:16 PM, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tue, Aug 7, 2018 at 11:16 AM, Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> * >Is it rational to die for your tribe? Not from the individual's
>> viewpoint!  But it is from the viewpoint of the genes*
>
>
> Yes but it can work the other way too. Is it rational to use a condom? Not
> from the genes viewpoint but it is from the individuals viewpoint.
>
> John K Clark
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Wed Aug  8 19:26:41 2018
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2018 14:26:41 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Prisoner of bad philosophy: Carl Sagan couldn?t allow >
 himself to hope
In-Reply-To: <CABf9QbDuDzoynTEt+ZeAU8=FKFU9E86LS6yB5Bh2POSbZAHTJA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB508RXN32to=EermAxZ9fwDJreji-cYFaYg2HZNckK=aQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv0Xm5WyoDuL_XKBHzWAcriWiNiRWi+V2A3pUtzLrmU40g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABf9QbDuDzoynTEt+ZeAU8=FKFU9E86LS6yB5Bh2POSbZAHTJA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZbfeNoMpsLRb9+ef45H_kExnbOwdnLCv3JYe06x=DCQg@mail.gmail.com>

I am not a big expert on evolution - but (yeah, there's a but here) it
seems that the only stress is on the number of offspring.  That might be
the case for most species, but for ours we need to bring the quality of the
offspring into consideration.  Higher quality people can have much greater
impact on the world.  For sheer numbers, we already have far too many
people, so our species survival is assured (compared to other ones, that is
- of course our survival may endanger all the rest if we don't tone down
the aggression).

bill w

On Wed, Aug 8, 2018 at 12:04 PM, SR Ballard <sen.otaku at gmail.com> wrote:

> Well, it might be rational to use the condom from the gene's point of view
> if the offspring which are produced, though fewer, have a higher chance of
> producing offspring.
>
> We'll know in a few hundred years.
>
> On Tue, Aug 7, 2018 at 5:16 PM, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, Aug 7, 2018 at 11:16 AM, Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> * >Is it rational to die for your tribe? Not from the individual's
>>> viewpoint!  But it is from the viewpoint of the genes*
>>
>>
>> Yes but it can work the other way too. Is it rational to use a condom?
>> Not from the genes viewpoint but it is from the individuals viewpoint.
>>
>> John K Clark
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Wed Aug  8 19:48:51 2018
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2018 14:48:51 -0500
Subject: [ExI] female heros?
In-Reply-To: <CABf9QbCcu8Jd95FB+LkiEVQK+o2mVQDnXoDR=gT+gL5UShB_jg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaA32eq802e=+BhJ+_i8Mu2ava22RPD7VejAuC=tWQAag@mail.gmail.com>
 <005701d42df7$6a56c330$3f044990$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEZKmkEqmv3iuUOb5G9F_Qr1FSV1zk52CUn05NYDqgPnCA@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAO+xQEaFVwp4fOMn=izRNqOC4_Aj4URra=7KF+Nnuc_rY_=hRQ@mail.gmail.com>

Now just how many times a day having sex would you consider to be evidence
of addiction?
There are people in the world (Polynesia, of course) who think that ten
times a day just might be enough, and less than that and the female won't
get pregnant.  (No, I don't know what they do for a living, but they aren't
starving).

Niven, the scifi writer, has a character who was a wirehead -addiction to
electrical stimulation to an implant in the brain (maybe it's like those
rats in the 50s who had implants and pushed a lever to deliver current in
place of doing anything else including eating - they would pass out, wake
up and start on the lever again - however, we don't know if it is pleasure
they are getting - maybe it causes pain but pushing the lever lowers it and
refraining makes it increase).

It's not the number of genitals we have that is the deciding factor:  it's
depleting brain chemicals which, like nerve cells, have to have some rest
before doing it again.  A refractory period, it is called.  What if we had
some way of shortening that to, say, 30 minutes?  Then we could have sex 48
times a day until we passed out from lack of sleep.  (Yes, I know you can
do it in 30 minutes now, but can you do it every 30 minutes for hours and
hours?  Give me a reply if you can - we'll be famous -you'll have to beat
my record of six times in six hours - no, not recently, darn it.)

Or how about cutting out the middle man/woman?  Like pouring the beer into
the toilet.  Just find the sexual area, implant electrodes, get you some
alkaline batteries, and jive on no matter what you are doing (if, like me,
you have had an orgasm while driving a car in traffic - no, not
self-administered - you do learn your limits).

bill w

On Wed, Aug 8, 2018 at 12:01 PM, SR Ballard <sen.otaku at gmail.com> wrote:

> Why should we suppose that Uploading would lead to sex addiction? To a
> certian degree, sexuality and sexual expression are tied to hormone
> production. For example, when very depressed, many people do not engage in
> any form of sexual behavior, including maturbation, having neither the
> energy nor the interest. On the other hand, testosterone, regardless of its
> cause, increases arousal.
>
> So if we were to upload, having no more hormones, we would certianly still
> be able to become addicted to sexual pleasure, just like some young men I
> know spend more time gratifying themselves sexually than anything else. But
> when uploaded, without the reminder of hormones, many people just might not
> think about it.
>
> For example, let's say that we all upload. Living in our virtual world
> together, we have no need to eat, but it persists for a long time as a well
> ingrained social habit. People design their own virtual homes and they
> throw virtual dinner parties and everyone enjoys food. Many newly uploaded
> people would probably design homes with bathrooms, even though they no
> longer need to bathe or use a toilet. Over time, we can imagine that people
> would stop designing bathrooms with toilets because they don't need to use
> them. How long, do you think, it would be before you realized that one of
> your friend's virtual houses had no tiolets?
>
> Or sleep for example. If after uploading humans can sleep and dream, but
> no longer require sleep and don't ever get sleepy, how long might it be
> before you realized it had been days or weeks or months or maybe even years
> since you slept?
>
> I think that after initial experimentation sexually, that quite a few
> people, freed from the obligations of hormone directed needs would
> generally not think about it after a while. Of course there would still be
> enthusiasts and hobbyists and so on.
>
> But people might just not form pair-bonds  or sex or have any interest in
> children and things like that after a certian amount of time after being
> uploaded.
>
>
>
>>
>>
>> But there may be a downside to that.  I am constantly pondering a
>> question I have had since I was younger than I am now: Fermi?s paradox.
>> Where is everyone?  If we figure out how to simulate sexual climax, most
>> intelligent entities would lose interest in day to day living and would go
>> into constant multiple-site orgasm mode.  This is the closest thing I can
>> think of to John Clark?s notion of digital drug abuse.  Simulated humanity
>> could screw ourselves to death.
>>
>>
>>
>> spike
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From atymes at gmail.com  Wed Aug  8 19:50:35 2018
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2018 12:50:35 -0700
Subject: [ExI] female heros?
In-Reply-To: <20180807104804.d116f5e08926a7036dd11a0a743afc19.42c56f9491.wbe@email17.godaddy.com>
References: <20180807104804.d116f5e08926a7036dd11a0a743afc19.42c56f9491.wbe@email17.godaddy.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNSsoxmRE1tE0xOAiyN8j99jBjX6Cv-TfTt585+UJxG_UA@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Aug 7, 2018 at 10:48 AM,  <natasha at natasha.cc> wrote:
> I read the messages and post. Let's check. Spike, are my messages getting
> through?
>
> Thx,
>
> Natasha

I don't know if Spike saw your message, but I did.


From atymes at gmail.com  Wed Aug  8 19:51:03 2018
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2018 12:51:03 -0700
Subject: [ExI] female heros?
In-Reply-To: <0DE5F0EE-A479-488D-B1CD-C71EA4A7670F@gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaA32eq802e=+BhJ+_i8Mu2ava22RPD7VejAuC=tWQAag@mail.gmail.com>
 <005701d42df7$6a56c330$3f044990$@rainier66.com>
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Message-ID: <CALAdGNRyRg=XrObP3+QV9SBk2U-LuYxAjwDrJTbb+e5pc_mBOg@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Aug 8, 2018 at 8:11 AM, SR Ballard <sen.otaku at gmail.com> wrote:
> Am I allowed to guess if I am female? Lol.

Yes, but yours would presumably be an educated guess.


From steinberg.will at gmail.com  Wed Aug  8 19:58:37 2018
From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg)
Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2018 15:58:37 -0400
Subject: [ExI] female heros?
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNSsoxmRE1tE0xOAiyN8j99jBjX6Cv-TfTt585+UJxG_UA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20180807104804.d116f5e08926a7036dd11a0a743afc19.42c56f9491.wbe@email17.godaddy.com>
 <CALAdGNSsoxmRE1tE0xOAiyN8j99jBjX6Cv-TfTt585+UJxG_UA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKrqSyEg9y+2oHxHfe=JjEnJtDH+-b1FAy2XkWX4deQP62UNcQ@mail.gmail.com>

A hero is a type of sandwich, I believe.
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From atymes at gmail.com  Wed Aug  8 20:11:16 2018
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2018 13:11:16 -0700
Subject: [ExI] female heros?
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEaFVwp4fOMn=izRNqOC4_Aj4URra=7KF+Nnuc_rY_=hRQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaA32eq802e=+BhJ+_i8Mu2ava22RPD7VejAuC=tWQAag@mail.gmail.com>
 <005701d42df7$6a56c330$3f044990$@rainier66.com>
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Message-ID: <CALAdGNTcPo+ET8mrr2uneGgRKwJ8+t+r2fyPq=B9G_eUtnrmjw@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Aug 8, 2018 at 12:48 PM, William Flynn Wallace
<foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Now just how many times a day having sex would you consider to be evidence
> of addiction?

I think a better measure might be amount of time spent per day (on all
things intended to arouse), since "one discrete instance of having
sex" can blur if you look too closely.  Even "amount of time spent"
can blur around the edges, but it is more precise, and a better
measure.  (A hypothetical claim of 10 times in 10 minutes daily would
still only be 10 minutes a day.  One "time" done over a full 4 hours
each and every day would be more of a concern, for multiple reasons.)

> It's not the number of genitals we have that is the deciding factor:  it's
> depleting brain chemicals which, like nerve cells, have to have some rest
> before doing it again.  A refractory period, it is called.  What if we had
> some way of shortening that to, say, 30 minutes?

Some women, I am informed, are able to shorten that to 0 minutes or
nearly so.  Perhaps an early step is to learn how they do it, then
come up with treatments to extend that capability to all women who
want it.  (And then men - but that will take longer to perfect, and
any serious attempt at this must start by serving those customers who
can be served earliest.)

> Or how about cutting out the middle man/woman?  Like pouring the beer into
> the toilet.  Just find the sexual area, implant electrodes, get you some
> alkaline batteries, and jive on no matter what you are doing (if, like me,
> you have had an orgasm while driving a car in traffic - no, not
> self-administered - you do learn your limits).

And wire the reward circuits to things other than procreation.  (I can
think of one sci-fi story where a worker's sexual reward center was
linked to job performance.  The job was operating a cloning facility.
One orgasm per kid successfully birthed and accepted an associated
orphanage-preschool for raising.  Said worker became a workaholic, and
the only people who minded were the worker's parents - who wanted
their own children - and those who sought to woo said worker - who
basically wanted the same thing.  The worker tried resolving this by
tampering with the genetic material used to make the newborns, but
this satisfied no one.)


From atymes at gmail.com  Wed Aug  8 20:12:59 2018
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2018 13:12:59 -0700
Subject: [ExI] female heros?
In-Reply-To: <CAKrqSyEg9y+2oHxHfe=JjEnJtDH+-b1FAy2XkWX4deQP62UNcQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20180807104804.d116f5e08926a7036dd11a0a743afc19.42c56f9491.wbe@email17.godaddy.com>
 <CALAdGNSsoxmRE1tE0xOAiyN8j99jBjX6Cv-TfTt585+UJxG_UA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyEg9y+2oHxHfe=JjEnJtDH+-b1FAy2XkWX4deQP62UNcQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNT52km=mOGVnqk40tOn351QhACEb-Q5Kv7YmDqPD5sY7Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Aug 8, 2018 at 12:58 PM, Will Steinberg
<steinberg.will at gmail.com> wrote:
> A hero is a type of sandwich, I believe.

There are not too many contexts in which sandwiches have genders.
(Mostly anthropomorphic food tales, to my knowledge.)


From spike at rainier66.com  Wed Aug  8 20:31:31 2018
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2018 13:31:31 -0700
Subject: [ExI] female heros?
In-Reply-To: <CAKrqSyEg9y+2oHxHfe=JjEnJtDH+-b1FAy2XkWX4deQP62UNcQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20180807104804.d116f5e08926a7036dd11a0a743afc19.42c56f9491.wbe@email17.godaddy.com>
 <CALAdGNSsoxmRE1tE0xOAiyN8j99jBjX6Cv-TfTt585+UJxG_UA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyEg9y+2oHxHfe=JjEnJtDH+-b1FAy2XkWX4deQP62UNcQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <009f01d42f56$cb62f4e0$6228dea0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Will Steinberg
Subject: Re: [ExI] female heros?

 

 

 

 

>?A hero is a type of sandwich, I believe.

 

Will, that?s a gyro.  The Greeks pronounce it to sound like hero.

 

spike

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From spike at rainier66.com  Wed Aug  8 20:36:10 2018
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2018 13:36:10 -0700
Subject: [ExI] female heros?
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNT52km=mOGVnqk40tOn351QhACEb-Q5Kv7YmDqPD5sY7Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20180807104804.d116f5e08926a7036dd11a0a743afc19.42c56f9491.wbe@email17.godaddy.com>
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Message-ID: <00ae01d42f57$711c5750$535505f0$@rainier66.com>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf To:
ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> 

Subject: Re: [ExI] female heros?


Even though Natasha posts only event announcements here, that would still
qualify as a post, which makes her one of the (tragically rare) female
posters on ExI.

spike







From natasha at natasha.cc  Wed Aug  8 20:22:16 2018
From: natasha at natasha.cc (natasha at natasha.cc)
Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2018 13:22:16 -0700
Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?female_heros=3F?=
Message-ID: <20180808132216.d116f5e08926a7036dd11a0a743afc19.a8bc676e03.wbe@email17.godaddy.com>

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From natasha at natasha.cc  Wed Aug  8 20:47:31 2018
From: natasha at natasha.cc (natasha at natasha.cc)
Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2018 13:47:31 -0700
Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?female_heros=3F?=
Message-ID: <20180808134731.d116f5e08926a7036dd11a0a743afc19.45718ab8ec.wbe@email17.godaddy.com>

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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Wed Aug  8 23:39:17 2018
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2018 19:39:17 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Prisoner of bad philosophy: Carl Sagan couldn?t allow >
 himself to hope
In-Reply-To: <CABf9QbDuDzoynTEt+ZeAU8=FKFU9E86LS6yB5Bh2POSbZAHTJA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB508RXN32to=EermAxZ9fwDJreji-cYFaYg2HZNckK=aQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv0Xm5WyoDuL_XKBHzWAcriWiNiRWi+V2A3pUtzLrmU40g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABf9QbDuDzoynTEt+ZeAU8=FKFU9E86LS6yB5Bh2POSbZAHTJA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv3L1Dh2zxw7xYo2qPm-RWnahYPE9B=sdUdy=cAQgaWxAw@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Aug 8, 2018 at 1:04 PM, SR Ballard <sen.otaku at gmail.com> wrote:

>
> *Well, it might be rational to use the condom from the gene's point of
> view if the offspring which are produced, though fewer, have a higher
> chance of producing offspring. We'll know in a few hundred years. *
>



Evolution doesn't work that way because genes have no foresight. If you
have a flat tire you can take off the flat and put on a new tire but
Evolution could never do something like that, when you take off the bad
tire you have no tire at all and have temporally made things worse.
Evolution just doesn't understand that one step backwards 2 steps forward
is a good thing.


 John K Clark
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Thu Aug  9 00:46:17 2018
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2018 19:46:17 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics for uploaders discussion: Video (John Clark)
In-Reply-To: <CAH=2ypWXym9ZNchsvfAvFU-8Tcn1YV68dSDE3ABVP37bfkUvZQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFVzX8njb4GZ+6H1JnmxDwwmADNoao8g_TPqn_nZW5ePRFMXTw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=2ypWXym9ZNchsvfAvFU-8Tcn1YV68dSDE3ABVP37bfkUvZQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYnwXTdFYZ1cdYhGncApnUDr85u30XQnqLr4Lapm3tBBw@mail.gmail.com>

If only you know you have been replaced with a copy, not the copy or anyone
else, how do you know now if you have been replaced by a copy? How do you
know if are being replaced by a copy every five minutes for your whole life?

> --
Stathis Papaioannou

Technically, you would know because there would be a program sent in the
copying process that would compare what was there and what was replacing it
looking for errors in the copying process.  But........

Why would I care?    bill w

On Sat, May 5, 2018 at 3:32 PM, Stathis Papaioannou <stathisp at gmail.com>
wrote:

>
> On Tue, 3 Apr 2018 at 4:46 am, Re Rose <rocket at earthlight.com> wrote:
>
>> "The only way we'll know for sure that any Cryonics procedure works is
>> when we
>> successfully revive somebody"
>>
>> Actually I'm not sure that will be helpful in all cases. I imagine a
>> scenario where a backup copy is uploaded to a host. Upon reanimation it
>> will be completely convinced its consciouness is as the person who was
>> uploaded. Why shouldn't it be? IMHO, the only individual who will even be
>> able to know if the copy is in fact "you" will be you - a copy will not be
>> able to tell. Not even your friends or partners can say if its you. They
>> may be convinced it is you. Only your subjective, internal experience will
>> allow you to be sure if it is you, and that agent will not be able to
>> convince anyone else (including copies) of that.
>>
>
> If only you know you have been replaced with a copy, not the copy or
> anyone else, how do you know now if you have been replaced by a copy? How
> do you know if are being replaced by a copy every five minutes for your
> whole life?
>
>> --
> Stathis Papaioannou
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From sen.otaku at gmail.com  Thu Aug  9 03:06:20 2018
From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard)
Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2018 22:06:20 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Prisoner of bad philosophy: Carl Sagan couldn?t allow >
 himself to hope
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv3L1Dh2zxw7xYo2qPm-RWnahYPE9B=sdUdy=cAQgaWxAw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB508RXN32to=EermAxZ9fwDJreji-cYFaYg2HZNckK=aQ@mail.gmail.com>
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Well excuse me for anthropomorphism -_-

Let me explain again.

Let?s have two families: Adam and Anne, and Bob and Becky.

Adam and Anne think that birth control is wrong, and don?t use any. They have 12 kids. 

Bob and Becky plan their family, and only have as many kids as they can afford and cake care of, they have 3 children. 

Simple math would make it appear that the ?A? family line will simply outbreed the ?B? family line. This is behind the Dominionist ideology in the US, which became popular in the 70s which basically states: ?If Christians outbreed secular people, Christianity can take over the country.?

But, there can be lots of other factors involved here, that we are not taking into account. 

For example, if a couple are quite young when they start having sex (she?s 14 for example), and they don?t use a condom, she might lose the baby.

If she does become pregnant, she might decide to have an abortion, thus no offspring result.

There are a lot of complications to pregnancy at such an early age. She might die as a complication, or have a decreased lifetime fertility. 

The baby, being born to a very young mother, is likely to suffer specific issues, and may experience a higher infant mortality rate.

The young mother, being ostracized, might fall into poverty with her child, and lack of access to a proper amount of food and medical care might lead it to die younger. 

Now, assuming that women only have children after reaching maturity, there are a number of important factors to consider, all of which might be more important than pure numbers. 

In the developed world, due to the effects of education, fertility rates fall off very quickly among immigrants. It?s a very small percent of people in developed countries who have large families. It is correlated very heavily with religiousness. 

So let?s return to the A family and the B family. 

Let?s say, for the sake of the argument, that the A family is a very religious Christian family. 

Anne had #12 when she was much older, and the child has a severe mental disability, and so will never have children.

#1 fulfills the dutiful oldest daughter trope and stays at home until her youngest sibling is married, and so, being at least 30 years old before they begin having children, has a reduced rate of fertility, having only 6 kids, but those kids are raised not to use condoms.

Since this family should statistically have a gay son, if the majority of the children are boys, and it?s generally one of the younger sons, let?s say that #11 is gay. He?s disowned by his family and thrown out. 

The parents don?t believe in vaccinations, and #2 dies of some easily prevented disease, and they didn?t go to the doctor because they were going to pray away the illness.

Catching the same illness, #3 receives a disability like deafness or blindness, which is interpreted as a trait which makes someone un-marriageable in their culture.

#10 rebels a bit in their teen years, and develops a bad drug problem and dies before having children.

#4 grows up and is an atheist. They begin to use condoms. They have 3 children and teach their children to use condoms.

#5 & 6 grow up and are less religious than their parents and use natural family planning, having only 6 kids each. They pass these values on to their children.

# 7 & 8 follow in their parent?s footsteps and have 12 children.

# 9 outdoes their parents and have 20 children.

 Now, of course, the ?A? line family has more grandkids than the ?B? line family. But suppose that, in order to marry, in the ?A? line family, if you remain in the religious viewpoint, you have to marry someone who shares it. They too are producing many offspring. 

Due to the high number of children, the group appears quite large, however all the members are more closely related than expected. Overtime, they begin to suffer the effects of this process. For example, there is FLDS Downs, a type of Down Syndrome only common in FLDS communities. Similarly, there are genetic defects only found in the Amish communities. Given time, even though each healthy woman might have more children, a greater and greater portion of them may eventually suffer from these disorders. 

So again, as I said, even though not using a condom might produce more offspring, it will take a long term assessment of the situation to determine if either using or not using a condom produces a larger number of offspring. Because condom use is associated with many other things as well. You?re not going to have any kids if you die of AIDS in your 20s.

So again, excuse me for anthropomorphizing genes, just like everyone else did in this discussion. 

Clearly what I was saying is that there are other factors that correlate with either condom use, or non-use, and these factors might be more important when determining long-term repercussions of their use or non-use. That?s all I?m saying. 

> On Aug 8, 2018, at 18:39, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> On Wed, Aug 8, 2018 at 1:04 PM, SR Ballard <sen.otaku at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> >Well, it might be rational to use the condom from the gene's point of view if the offspring which are produced, though fewer, have a higher chance of producing offspring. We'll know in a few hundred years. 
> 
>    
> Evolution doesn't work that way because genes have no foresight. If you have a flat tire you can take off the flat and put on a new tire but Evolution could never do something like that, when you take off the bad tire you have no tire at all and have temporally made things worse. Evolution just doesn't understand that one step backwards 2 steps forward is a good thing. 
> 
>  John K Clark
> 
>  
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
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From sen.otaku at gmail.com  Thu Aug  9 09:13:23 2018
From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard)
Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2018 04:13:23 -0500
Subject: [ExI] female heros?
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNTcPo+ET8mrr2uneGgRKwJ8+t+r2fyPq=B9G_eUtnrmjw@mail.gmail.com>
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On Wed, Aug 8, 2018 at 3:11 PM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Wed, Aug 8, 2018 at 12:48 PM, William Flynn Wallace
> <foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Some women, I am informed, are able to shorten that to 0 minutes or
> nearly so.  Perhaps an early step is to learn how they do it, then
> come up with treatments to extend that capability to all women who
> want it.  (And then men - but that will take longer to perfect, and
> any serious attempt at this must start by serving those customers who
> can be served earliest.)
>
>
This made me laugh far too much upon reading it.

We have to be clear about experiences here. The woman in this equation is
not having multiple sexual encounters during this period, but experiencing
multiple orgasms. I know of a situation of a woman how had about 40 orgasms
in a 4 hour period.

Men can also experience multiple orgasm, believe it or not. Most straight
men, however, will probably not experience this. If you are interested, you
should take some time to Google "non-ejaculatory orgasms" and "prostate
orgasms". I think you can see the direction that this is headed.

An important question to answer here, is what exactly causes orgasms. I
think something informative about the answer to this question is that
corpses can have orgasms for quite a few hours after they die.

Which lead to the knowledge that orgasmscan be created by electrical
stimulation alone. There was an experiment where women were being treated
for back pain, and had electrodes placed inside the spinal cord. When the
device is powered, a certian percentage of women experienced orgasm, and
the scientist is currently trying to see if he can get the device studied
as a treatment for orgasmic function.

Since it is technically possible for both men and women to experience
multiple orgasm, the limits we currently experience in this regard are
likely physical, in the sense of remaining aroused and physically strong
enough to continue, rather than running up against a difficulty in the
brain.

With sufficent research, it should be possible to stimulate multiple orgasm
in both men and women with electrical stimulation alone.

However, there are severe roadblocks that have anything to do with women's
sexuality. Compared to male sexuality and reproductive health, there is
very little research in the same field for women. Look at the absurdly high
rate of ignorance of women's sexual dysfunctions in the medical community
if that fact wasn't already plain to you.
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From spike at rainier66.com  Thu Aug  9 12:57:28 2018
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2018 05:57:28 -0700
Subject: [ExI] female heros?
In-Reply-To: <CABf9QbAeJjhZ+AoG11V6davj-kZWfHUH5Q8nSD9J8EXwBKw-YQ@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <002601d42fe0$87990800$96cb1800$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of SR Ballard
?

 

 

>? Compared to male sexuality and reproductive health, there is very little research in the same field for women. 

 

Oh I have sooooo wasted my life.  I coulda been a researcher on women?s sexuality.  Instead I chose to be a rocket scientist.  Oh what a tragic waste of a perfectly good mind.  Hey wait, there?s still time?

 

>? With sufficent research, it should be possible to stimulate multiple orgasm in both men and women with electrical stimulation alone?

 

Fermi?s paradox is puzzling no more.  Now we know what they are doing out there.  This technology is the greatest of great filters.

 

spike

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From atymes at gmail.com  Fri Aug 10 04:17:19 2018
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2018 21:17:19 -0700
Subject: [ExI] female heros?
In-Reply-To: <CABf9QbAeJjhZ+AoG11V6davj-kZWfHUH5Q8nSD9J8EXwBKw-YQ@mail.gmail.com>
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On Thu, Aug 9, 2018 at 2:15 AM SR Ballard <sen.otaku at gmail.com> wrote:
> However, there are severe roadblocks that have anything to do with women's sexuality. Compared to male sexuality and reproductive health, there is very little research in the same field for women. Look at the absurdly high rate of ignorance of women's sexual dysfunctions in the medical community if that fact wasn't already plain to you.

Aye.  That's why I specifically noted this avenue as something that
would require quite a bit of research into a topic that much of the
medical community shies away from.

"Sure, you can jack up that male sexual experience.  But only if you
boost the women first."



From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Aug 10 04:31:07 2018
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2018 21:31:07 -0700
Subject: [ExI] female heros?
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNRoJFVqhFbarUcms=d1OOPpuVgtzKn35VCHn-BdAcdBBw@mail.gmail.com>
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-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of
Adrian Tymes
Subject: Re: [ExI] female heros?

On Thu, Aug 9, 2018 at 2:15 AM SR Ballard <sen.otaku at gmail.com> wrote:


>> ... Compared with to male sexuality and reproductive health, there is
very little research in the same field for women...

>...Aye... that would require quite a bit of research into a topic that much
of the medical community shies away from.

Imagine you are a researcher into female orgasm.  Now imagine explaining...
to your grandmother... what you do for a living.

The next day you come into the office, she's sitting there, and 

"Granny this area is only for volunteer subjects."

"That's right."

"Uh... Granny... ummm... I'm not... I mean..."

"Enough of your bloviatin' and pontificatin'!  Wire me up, Junior!"

Result: researchers just don't go there.

spike  







From steinberg.will at gmail.com  Fri Aug 10 04:51:22 2018
From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg)
Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2018 00:51:22 -0400
Subject: [ExI] female heros?
In-Reply-To: <00df01d43062$f56c22e0$e04468a0$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaA32eq802e=+BhJ+_i8Mu2ava22RPD7VejAuC=tWQAag@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAKrqSyEi+qv2OU9GpZ59VhCz1Pk4htnJhRX+vLU2UZ6g8-+Ofg@mail.gmail.com>

A peculiar aspect of being a multiple orgasm researcher is that if someone
asks "Come again?" when you're explaining your work, you may have explained
it perfectly.
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From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Aug 10 05:01:23 2018
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2018 22:01:23 -0700
Subject: [ExI] female heros?
In-Reply-To: <CAKrqSyEi+qv2OU9GpZ59VhCz1Pk4htnJhRX+vLU2UZ6g8-+Ofg@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <000801d43067$30262d00$90728700$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Will Steinberg
Subject: Re: [ExI] female heros?

 

 

 

 

>?A peculiar aspect of being a multiple orgasm researcher is that if someone asks "Come again?" when you're explaining your work, you may have explained it perfectly?

 

 

All this has me pondering the obvious link between sexuality and humor.  Think about all the jokes you know.  Most of them have copulation somewhere in there it seems.  I don?t know why it is, but it is a topic just made for humor.

 

Ideas please?

 

spike

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From steinberg.will at gmail.com  Fri Aug 10 05:13:27 2018
From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg)
Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2018 01:13:27 -0400
Subject: [ExI] female heros?
In-Reply-To: <000801d43067$30262d00$90728700$@rainier66.com>
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Message-ID: <CAKrqSyE4wcV-_9b+NNAXfRMPvKY0Zr=FB91o9--2chsGHPp58Q@mail.gmail.com>

Sex is in the odd position (ha ha) of having everything to do with
existence as a DNA lifeform, but seemingly (to some) nothing to do with
existence as a theoretical consciousness; which is an arbitrary act that
one might think could be eschewed in a transhuman scheme, but is so fun and
such an alleviator of existential stress that it can be hard to imagine
existence without it.

It is a contradiction, and contradictions are humor.  It is certainly a
funny thing.  And it certainly improves the bearability of consciousness.
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From atymes at gmail.com  Fri Aug 10 05:44:28 2018
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2018 22:44:28 -0700
Subject: [ExI] female heros?
In-Reply-To: <000801d43067$30262d00$90728700$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaA32eq802e=+BhJ+_i8Mu2ava22RPD7VejAuC=tWQAag@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CALAdGNRWuZhRP1heR7wdi84H2PTkEztFv2_67OqVPvR0h63oRg@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Aug 9, 2018 at 10:03 PM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:
> All this has me pondering the obvious link between sexuality and humor.  Think about all the jokes you know.  Most of them have copulation somewhere in there it seems.  I don?t know why it is, but it is a topic just made for humor.

Indeed, though there is the problem that excessive indulgence in this
will make people think less seriously of your work (if you are
seriously researching this).

Just yesterday i was listening to folks making "arms" jokes about a
"bullet" vibrator, at a rapid-fire pace.  They ricocheted jokes off
one another, leaving just enough time to reload new jokes and aim them
the way the conversation had drifted.  Their apparent target was
laughs and groans, and judging by the reactions, they hit.



From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Aug 10 16:42:30 2018
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2018 11:42:30 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Atheism
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEY0iLnShYnYFDxr9S0fxCP1vq2kSROnAzxq2VGBvN78LQ@mail.gmail.com>

These PERSONS didn't commit their atrocities *in the name of* atheism. As I
said, they committed them for other reasons, usually to do with gaining and
holding on to power over other people.
. Atheism is not a belief system. Surely you understand that   Ben Zaiboc

 Think of a belief system as like totems.  If you are a member of a tribe
which has a totem, you are a member of a group that has a large number of
beliefs and rites and other actions associated with that totem.  The same
is true if you are both Baptists, Roman Catholics, Jews, and so on.

Now think of meeting some stranger with whom you are sharing a table at
Starbucks.  You strike up a conversation and find that both of you are
atheists.  What other points of similarity are there?  Perhaps none at
all.  There are liberal and conservative atheists, authoritarians and
libertarians, and so on.

If in fact you have no similarity with that other person than that you are
both atheists (and maybe for very different reasons), then I say that
atheism is not a belief system.

bill w

On Tue, Aug 7, 2018 at 5:03 PM, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tue, Aug 7, 2018 at 1:23 AM, Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >
>> *Atheism IS a belief system*
>
>
> So is the multiplication table.
>
> >
>> *when it becomes militant and intolerant.*
>
>
> If I say believers are imbeciles that is not being intolerant, I'm just
> expressing my opinion and the believer is perfectly free to say the same
> thing about me.
> Pelting somebody with words is not violen
> t
> , pelting somebody with rocks is; and so is burning somebody at the stake,
> a favorite pastime of the pious.
>
>  John K Clark
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Aug 10 17:14:13 2018
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2018 12:14:13 -0500
Subject: [ExI] female heros?
In-Reply-To: <000801d43067$30262d00$90728700$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaA32eq802e=+BhJ+_i8Mu2ava22RPD7VejAuC=tWQAag@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYPuLLAa-xdD5wjFoqimncpi5wNLchcr762tQSTvPRJtA@mail.gmail.com>

All this has me pondering the obvious link between sexuality and humor.
Think about all the jokes you know.  Most of them have copulation somewhere
in there it seems.  I don?t know why it is, but it is a topic just made for
humor.



Ideas please?



spike

"What's the difference between a duck?"

"One of his legs is alike."

Find the sex there.  (Indeed, find the humor there!)

I taught a class in Human Sexuality in the 80s and 90s and had no trouble
at all finding research on orgasms of all types.  The first one I found was
John Watson, who got thrown out of Johns Hopkins University because of his
sexual experiments with a female grad student (Rosalie Raynor of the Watson
and Raynor publication) in a basement where they were hooked up to various
recording devices.  I reckon they did not publish that one.

I think if you'll look, you'll find gobs of orgasm research.  What
questions do you want answered?  How about Freud's about the difference
between a vaginal and clitoral orgasm?

bill w

On Fri, Aug 10, 2018 at 12:01 AM, <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On Behalf
> Of *Will Steinberg
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] female heros?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >?A peculiar aspect of being a multiple orgasm researcher is that if
> someone asks "Come again?" when you're explaining your work, you may have
> explained it perfectly?
>
>
>
>
>
> All this has me pondering the obvious link between sexuality and humor.
> Think about all the jokes you know.  Most of them have copulation somewhere
> in there it seems.  I don?t know why it is, but it is a topic just made for
> humor.
>
>
>
> Ideas please?
>
>
>
> spike
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From ben at zaiboc.net  Fri Aug 10 17:29:06 2018
From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2018 18:29:06 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Atheism
In-Reply-To: <mailman.23.1533919384.6153.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.23.1533919384.6153.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <5B6DCB62.3090907@zaiboc.net>


William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:

 > Now think of meeting some stranger with whom you are sharing a table 
at Starbucks.  You strike up a conversation and find that both of you 
are atheists.  What other points of similarity are there? Perhaps none 
at all.  There are liberal and conservative atheists, authoritarians and 
libertarians, and so on.

 > If in fact you have no similarity with that other person than that 
you are both atheists (and maybe for very different reasons), then I say 
that atheism is not a belief system.


I think that's beside the point. My point is that it's a simple matter 
of the definition of the word. It means, literally, a lack of belief in 
gods.
What It doesn't mean - and this is what confuses so many people, it 
seems - is a belief in a lack of gods. Maybe some atheists do have such 
a belief, but if so, that isn't what makes them atheists. You could 
reasonably argue that they aren't in fact atheists, but something else. 
Anti-theists, maybe.


Ben Zaiboc


From ben at zaiboc.net  Fri Aug 10 17:52:03 2018
From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2018 18:52:03 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Atheism
In-Reply-To: <mailman.15.1533655093.6153.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.15.1533655093.6153.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <5B6DD0C3.4020509@zaiboc.net>

Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:

"Atheism IS a belief system when it becomes militant and intolerant.
Let's agree to disagree."


Wait a minute. That makes no sense.

Either something is or isn't a belief system. Whether or not that 
something is 'militant' or intolerant has no bearing on it. You're 
basically saying that something which isn't a belief system, suddenly 
becomes one when people do something you don't like??


I can't "agree to disagree" if that means "stop arguing with me when I 
say these silly things". Does this make me a militant? No, it doesn't. I 
have no intention or desire to cause you physical harm, that would be 
against my principles.


You are conflating the concepts of blind faith with rationality, and 
discussion with physical violence. Try doing the same with Red and 
Green, then drive a car. Perhaps you will see the problem.

-- 
Ben Zaiboc



From johnkclark at gmail.com  Fri Aug 10 18:55:31 2018
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2018 14:55:31 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Atheism
In-Reply-To: <5B6DCB62.3090907@zaiboc.net>
References: <mailman.23.1533919384.6153.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <5B6DCB62.3090907@zaiboc.net>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv2LRLA5n=xzxBATSZxxfbm2+XjB6n48RDGGwdHBYaYJPQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Aug 10, 2018 at 1:29 PM, Ben Zaiboc <ben at zaiboc.net> wrote:


> *>t's a simple matter of the definition of the word. It means, literally,
> a lack of belief in gods.What It doesn't mean - and this is what confuses
> so many people, it seems - is a belief in a lack of gods.*

A distinction without a difference. If there is no evidence proposition X
is true and no evidence it is false that doesn't necessarily mean there is
a 50-50 chance it is correct and a rational person must take proposition X
seriously.  I lack a belief there are china teapots in orbit around Uranus
and I believe there is a lack of China teapots in orbit around Uranus.

> *> Maybe some atheists do have such a belief, but if so, that isn't what
> makes them atheists. *


That is exactly what makes them atheists.

*>You could reasonably argue that they aren't in fact atheists, but
> something else. Anti-theists, mayb*

There is already a perfectly good word for fence sitters, "agnostics". But
I think being a theological agnostic is as silly as being a teapot agnostic
so, although I know this is very controversial, I am will ing  to make a
stand and boldly say there are no teapots in orbit around Uranus.  Wow, it
feels good to get that off my chest.

John K Clark
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From danust2012 at gmail.com  Fri Aug 10 19:35:35 2018
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2018 12:35:35 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Atheism
In-Reply-To: <CAKTCJycSZ1dxCFRnmeN6vXdTSLh3SrGvDDf=X3LoKF+4Q7=s3w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.12.1533566509.6153.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <5B688F77.40309@zaiboc.net>
 <CAKTCJycSZ1dxCFRnmeN6vXdTSLh3SrGvDDf=X3LoKF+4Q7=s3w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8DBD80DD-03AF-4AC7-B46A-5019AE7A11E5@gmail.com>


On Aug 6, 2018, at 10:23 PM, Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> I can agree that most people who commit atrocities aren't motivated by
> ideology, but by "other reasons, usually to do with gaining and
> holding on to power over other people," But you can say this about
> everyone, including nazis and violent religious fundamentalists.
> Atheism IS a belief system when it becomes militant and intolerant.
> Let's agree to disagree.

Negative atheism is the absence of a belief, so it?s not really a belief system. Compare it with stuff you have sheer ignorance over ? say, the characters in my as yet unpublished novel. I wouldn?t call your likely previous state of not even knowing about my novel let alone being unaware of its characters having a positive belief about it and them much less holding a belief system about it and them.

Positive atheism is the belief that there?s no god or gods, but that?s not a belief system either. Sure it can be nested inside a belief system, such as a set of other beliefs that justify positive atheism. But the belief itself is not the whole system. And this is how atheists can vary a lot. For instance, different atheists can have different reasons for disbelieving in god(s).

The same applies to theism. And this is more the correct level to compare these fairly abstract terms. Now, there are a range of theist systems, but theism simpliciter is merely the belief in god(s).

The issue here you?re debating would be more about what moral and political views are capitals with atheism or theism or with particular systems coupled with atheism or theism. And one can ask questions like what do atheists typically believe about, say, harming people for political ends. Though a problem here is going to be how well that generalizes and whether it?s showing a strong relation. (Observe: many on the Right in the US argue that Islam leads to violence. And there?s no shortage of cases of violent Muslims in the news. But the overwhelming majority of Muslims seem to be as peaceful as non-Muslim theists adjusting for other factors. Atheists actually seem to be less violent as a class now than others ? or that?s my guess based on religious affiliations of violent criminals.)

Regards,

Dan
   Sample my Kindle books at:
http://author.to/DanUst


From giulio at gmail.com  Sat Aug 11 05:39:56 2018
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2018 07:39:56 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Atheism
In-Reply-To: <5B6DD0C3.4020509@zaiboc.net>
References: <mailman.15.1533655093.6153.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <5B6DD0C3.4020509@zaiboc.net>
Message-ID: <CAKTCJyfDOs5o1cO3TgJy_Q45ZDYoOqKeKSwUu3Yx3n6FNOwzwA@mail.gmail.com>

"I can't "agree to disagree" if that means "stop arguing with me when I
say these silly things"

No, that means that I will stop arguing with you when you say these
silly things.
On Fri, Aug 10, 2018 at 8:44 PM Ben Zaiboc <ben at zaiboc.net> wrote:
>
> Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> "Atheism IS a belief system when it becomes militant and intolerant.
> Let's agree to disagree."
>
>
> Wait a minute. That makes no sense.
>
> Either something is or isn't a belief system. Whether or not that
> something is 'militant' or intolerant has no bearing on it. You're
> basically saying that something which isn't a belief system, suddenly
> becomes one when people do something you don't like??
>
>
> I can't "agree to disagree" if that means "stop arguing with me when I
> say these silly things". Does this make me a militant? No, it doesn't. I
> have no intention or desire to cause you physical harm, that would be
> against my principles.
>
>
> You are conflating the concepts of blind faith with rationality, and
> discussion with physical violence. Try doing the same with Red and
> Green, then drive a car. Perhaps you will see the problem.
>
> --
> Ben Zaiboc
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From johnkclark at gmail.com  Sat Aug 11 16:29:56 2018
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2018 12:29:56 -0400
Subject: [ExI] female heros?
In-Reply-To: <CABf9QbCcu8Jd95FB+LkiEVQK+o2mVQDnXoDR=gT+gL5UShB_jg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaA32eq802e=+BhJ+_i8Mu2ava22RPD7VejAuC=tWQAag@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAJPayv2UBg923uS+rzo1f707TQqVHzr6f=BOmB9xdfU7O3CJGA@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Aug 8, 2018 at 1:01 PM, SR Ballard <sen.otaku at gmail.com> wrote:

*>Why should we suppose that Uploading would lead to sex addiction?*
>

But this isn't just about sex that's only one small aspect of it. If a
upload had full control of his (or her) emotional control panel, and there
is no reason in theory he couldn't, then he could maximize ALL pleasurable
experiences not just sex. You could feel the joy of falling in love without
meeting another person, you could feel the pride of your child saying his
first words taking his first steps and later graduating with honors from
medical school without ever having a child, you could bask in the praise of
your colleagues for doing a brilliant job without having any colleagues or
any job or doing anything brilliant. Einstein said the day he finished
General Relativity was the happiest day of his life, but it took 10 years
of grueling work, he got sick lost 40 pounds and nearly worked himself to
death. Imagine if you could feel exactly as Einstein did by simply twisting
a knob. There would be a great temptation to get at your emotional control
panel, but positive feedback loops never last forever and where they end up
is probably not where you originally wanted to go. If we're not the first I
think that is the best explanation of the Fermi Paradox.

>
> *So if we were to upload, having no more hormones, we would certianly
> still be able to become addicted to sexual pleasure, just like some young
> men I know spend more time gratifying themselves sexually than anything
> else. But when uploaded, without the reminder of hormones, many people just
> might not think about it. *
>

A hormone is just a chemical that can convey information, but a upload
could do that much more efficiently electronically.

 John K Clark
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From spike at rainier66.com  Sat Aug 11 17:08:57 2018
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2018 10:08:57 -0700
Subject: [ExI] female heros?
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv2UBg923uS+rzo1f707TQqVHzr6f=BOmB9xdfU7O3CJGA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaA32eq802e=+BhJ+_i8Mu2ava22RPD7VejAuC=tWQAag@mail.gmail.com>
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 <0DE5F0EE-A479-488D-B1CD-C71EA4A7670F@gmail.com>
 <003d01d42f2c$45de4c90$d19ae5b0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEbNSqPWDj1a6E7fhA8-rwE6fFbToXWh28DPMhVowM8cBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <009701d42f34$65c57030$31505090$@rainier66.com>
 <CABf9QbCcu8Jd95FB+LkiEVQK+o2mVQDnXoDR=gT+gL5UShB_jg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv2UBg923uS+rzo1f707TQqVHzr6f=BOmB9xdfU7O3CJGA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <009201d43195$fdde9d20$f99bd760$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of John Clark
Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2018 9:30 AM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: Re: [ExI] female heros?

 

On Wed, Aug 8, 2018 at 1:01 PM, SR Ballard <sen.otaku at gmail.com <mailto:sen.otaku at gmail.com> > wrote:

 

>> 

Why should we suppose that Uploading would lead to sex addiction?

 

>?But this isn't just about sex that's only one small aspect of it. If a upload had full control of his (or her) emotional control panel, and there is no reason in theory he couldn't, then he could maximize ALL pleasurable experiences not just sex. ... If we're not the first I think that is the best explanation of the Fermi Paradox.  

?

 

>?A hormone is just a chemical that can convey information, but a upload could do that much more efficiently electronically.  ?John K Clark  

 

 

That whole line of reasoning carries an unsettling plausibility.

 

I was toying with another one, perhaps a version of something posted here previously.  A funny YouTube had a group of teenagers trying to figure out how to dial one of those old-time rotary phones, the only kind that existed in my (and John?s) misspent youth.  Anyone born before about 1970 knows exactly how to use one.  Watching a group born after 2000 attempt it was hilarious.

 

This video gave me the idea that perhaps as automation increases, our collective competence at reasoning decreases.  As AI steps up, Bio-I stands down.  As computers get smarter, we get dumber.

 

If that is the case, then we can imagine AI getting smart enough to run things and take care of us, but lacking in ambition to contact other intelligence.  It is smart enough and good at taking care of what is happening down here, but just doesn?t care much what is out there; it just focuses inward.  Then we humans still have that spark of curiosity but we get too damn stupid to do anything with it.

 

spike

 

 

 

 

 

 

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From natasha at natasha.cc  Sat Aug 11 17:01:00 2018
From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More)
Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2018 10:01:00 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Politics of Radical Life Extension / Indefinite Lifespans
Message-ID: <001501d43194$e1b42f30$a51c8d90$@natasha.cc>

While this is nothing new to you all,  being reminded of the many potholes.
I came across a PEW article, and then this article (which refers to the PEW
article).
http://theweek.com/articles/555605/radical-life-extension-abortion-politics-
2050

 

2050? It is an issue now.

 

Natasha

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From johntc at gmail.com  Sat Aug 11 19:26:54 2018
From: johntc at gmail.com (John Tracy Cunningham)
Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2018 15:26:54 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Politics of Radical Life Extension / Indefinite Lifespans
In-Reply-To: <001501d43194$e1b42f30$a51c8d90$@natasha.cc>
References: <001501d43194$e1b42f30$a51c8d90$@natasha.cc>
Message-ID: <CAAYfg-iGmqiq9Ok18thNZuYqi+vk+dZZ-=c_ZZM8=XziJzGq7g@mail.gmail.com>

Thank you, Natasha.  All too true!  May I give what to me is a practical
example?

I am a retired US Air Force officer drawing a retirement check and medical
care benefits for life.  I am sure that the budgeting to pay for this uses
the actuarial tables for life expectancy.  I will be 67 later this month
and the tables say I'm good for another 18 years on average.

Should substantial healthy life extension become available, I would
certainly try to obtain the treatment(s) for myself and my wife at a
minimum.

If I live quite a bit longer than expected (which I expect to happen), and
many of my peers do the same, this will throw the allocated budget into a
cocked hat.  I would not be surprised if the US Government declared an end
to my monthly check and health care.  This in turn would drive the argument
to wealth accumulation by the long-lived.  In my case the accumulation is
modest but doing well.

Thoughts?

Regards

John

On Sat, Aug 11, 2018 at 1:21 PM Natasha Vita-More <natasha at natasha.cc>
wrote:

> While this is nothing new to you all,  being reminded of the many
> potholes.  I came across a PEW article, and then this article (which refers
> to the PEW article).
> http://theweek.com/articles/555605/radical-life-extension-abortion-politics-2050
>
>
>
> 2050? It is an issue now.
>
>
>
> *Natasha*
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sat Aug 11 20:24:37 2018
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2018 15:24:37 -0500
Subject: [ExI] female heros?
In-Reply-To: <009201d43195$fdde9d20$f99bd760$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaA32eq802e=+BhJ+_i8Mu2ava22RPD7VejAuC=tWQAag@mail.gmail.com>
 <005701d42df7$6a56c330$3f044990$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEZKmkEqmv3iuUOb5G9F_Qr1FSV1zk52CUn05NYDqgPnCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <00ef01d42e68$7ac82300$70586900$@rainier66.com>
 <0DE5F0EE-A479-488D-B1CD-C71EA4A7670F@gmail.com>
 <003d01d42f2c$45de4c90$d19ae5b0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEbNSqPWDj1a6E7fhA8-rwE6fFbToXWh28DPMhVowM8cBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <009701d42f34$65c57030$31505090$@rainier66.com>
 <CABf9QbCcu8Jd95FB+LkiEVQK+o2mVQDnXoDR=gT+gL5UShB_jg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv2UBg923uS+rzo1f707TQqVHzr6f=BOmB9xdfU7O3CJGA@mail.gmail.com>
 <009201d43195$fdde9d20$f99bd760$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEa33v0fqrOtW+3GBSnMnJKuV=4edAEYM_yvNVEczJMZ_g@mail.gmail.com>

 A funny YouTube had a group of teenagers trying to figure out how to dial
one of those old-time rotary phones  spike

Please supply the link.  I just don't believe it. bill w

On Sat, Aug 11, 2018 at 12:08 PM, <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On Behalf
> Of *John Clark
> *Sent:* Saturday, August 11, 2018 9:30 AM
> *To:* ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] female heros?
>
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 8, 2018 at 1:01 PM, SR Ballard <sen.otaku at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> *>> *
>
> *Why should we suppose that Uploading would lead to sex addiction?*
>
>
>
> >?But this isn't just about sex that's only one small aspect of it. If a
> upload had full control of his (or her) emotional control panel, and there
> is no reason in theory he couldn't, then he could maximize ALL pleasurable
> experiences not just sex. ... If we're not the first I think that is the
> best explanation of the Fermi Paradox.
>
> ?
>
>
>
> >?A hormone is just a chemical that can convey information, but a upload
> could do that much more efficiently electronically.  ?John K Clark
>
>
>
>
>
> That whole line of reasoning carries an unsettling plausibility.
>
>
>
> I was toying with another one, perhaps a version of something posted here
> previously.  A funny YouTube had a group of teenagers trying to figure out
> how to dial one of those old-time rotary phones, the only kind that existed
> in my (and John?s) misspent youth.  Anyone born before about 1970 knows
> exactly how to use one.  Watching a group born after 2000 attempt it was
> hilarious.
>
>
>
> This video gave me the idea that perhaps as automation increases, our
> collective competence at reasoning decreases.  As AI steps up, Bio-I stands
> down.  As computers get smarter, we get dumber.
>
>
>
> If that is the case, then we can imagine AI getting smart enough to run
> things and take care of us, but lacking in ambition to contact other
> intelligence.  It is smart enough and good at taking care of what is
> happening down here, but just doesn?t care much what is out there; it just
> focuses inward.  Then we humans still have that spark of curiosity but we
> get too damn stupid to do anything with it.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Sat Aug 11 21:04:12 2018
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2018 14:04:12 -0700
Subject: [ExI] female heros?
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEa33v0fqrOtW+3GBSnMnJKuV=4edAEYM_yvNVEczJMZ_g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaA32eq802e=+BhJ+_i8Mu2ava22RPD7VejAuC=tWQAag@mail.gmail.com>
 <005701d42df7$6a56c330$3f044990$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEZKmkEqmv3iuUOb5G9F_Qr1FSV1zk52CUn05NYDqgPnCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <00ef01d42e68$7ac82300$70586900$@rainier66.com>
 <0DE5F0EE-A479-488D-B1CD-C71EA4A7670F@gmail.com>
 <003d01d42f2c$45de4c90$d19ae5b0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEbNSqPWDj1a6E7fhA8-rwE6fFbToXWh28DPMhVowM8cBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <009701d42f34$65c57030$31505090$@rainier66.com>
 <CABf9QbCcu8Jd95FB+LkiEVQK+o2mVQDnXoDR=gT+gL5UShB_jg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv2UBg923uS+rzo1f707TQqVHzr6f=BOmB9xdfU7O3CJGA@mail.gmail.com>
 <009201d43195$fdde9d20$f99bd760$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEa33v0fqrOtW+3GBSnMnJKuV=4edAEYM_yvNVEczJMZ_g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00f801d431b6$db2b8ba0$9182a2e0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace
Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2018 1:25 PM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: Re: [ExI] female heros?

 

>? A funny YouTube had a group of teenagers trying to figure out how to dial one of those old-time rotary phones  spike

 

 

 

 

Please supply the link.  I just don't believe it. bill w

 

 

 

I found some even better ones just Googling on teenagers rotary phone:

 

http://digg.com/video/wheel-of-misfortune

 

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/hilarious-video-millennial-trying-use-11926498

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nukrZEKkg1I

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5993907/Comical-moment-teens-try-operate-rotary-phone-fail-miserably.html

 

Wasted a fun 20 minutes watching some of these goofs fumbling about, but then it occurred to me that it might be reinforcing the unsettling notion that as technology steps up, we stand down.

 

spike

 

 

 

 

 

 

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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sat Aug 11 22:26:15 2018
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2018 17:26:15 -0500
Subject: [ExI] female heros?
In-Reply-To: <00f801d431b6$db2b8ba0$9182a2e0$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaA32eq802e=+BhJ+_i8Mu2ava22RPD7VejAuC=tWQAag@mail.gmail.com>
 <005701d42df7$6a56c330$3f044990$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEZKmkEqmv3iuUOb5G9F_Qr1FSV1zk52CUn05NYDqgPnCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <00ef01d42e68$7ac82300$70586900$@rainier66.com>
 <0DE5F0EE-A479-488D-B1CD-C71EA4A7670F@gmail.com>
 <003d01d42f2c$45de4c90$d19ae5b0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEbNSqPWDj1a6E7fhA8-rwE6fFbToXWh28DPMhVowM8cBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <009701d42f34$65c57030$31505090$@rainier66.com>
 <CABf9QbCcu8Jd95FB+LkiEVQK+o2mVQDnXoDR=gT+gL5UShB_jg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv2UBg923uS+rzo1f707TQqVHzr6f=BOmB9xdfU7O3CJGA@mail.gmail.com>
 <009201d43195$fdde9d20$f99bd760$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEa33v0fqrOtW+3GBSnMnJKuV=4edAEYM_yvNVEczJMZ_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <00f801d431b6$db2b8ba0$9182a2e0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbNq02C7SAEwgh-X1J7UfrREgiC-SLppFgSChtxMy6ooQ@mail.gmail.com>

Wasted a fun 20 minutes watching some of these goofs fumbling about, but
then it occurred to me that it might be reinforcing the unsettling notion
that as technology steps up, we stand down.



spike
I almost wish you had not sent these - pathetic.  What tech may improve in
the future is the ability to articulate the English language, as all we
will need to do is talk to our gadgets.
Something needs to be done to obviate 200 page manuals.
bill w

On Sat, Aug 11, 2018 at 4:04 PM, <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On Behalf
> Of *William Flynn Wallace
> *Sent:* Saturday, August 11, 2018 1:25 PM
> *To:* ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] female heros?
>
>
>
> >? A funny YouTube had a group of teenagers trying to figure out how to
> dial one of those old-time rotary phones  spike
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Please supply the link.  I just don't believe it. bill w
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I found some even better ones just Googling on teenagers rotary phone:
>
>
>
> http://digg.com/video/wheel-of-misfortune
>
>
>
> https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/hilarious-video-
> millennial-trying-use-11926498
>
>
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nukrZEKkg1I
>
>
>
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5993907/Comical-
> moment-teens-try-operate-rotary-phone-fail-miserably.html
>
>
>
> Wasted a fun 20 minutes watching some of these goofs fumbling about, but
> then it occurred to me that it might be reinforcing the unsettling notion
> that as technology steps up, we stand down.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Sat Aug 11 22:30:12 2018
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2018 15:30:12 -0700
Subject: [ExI] female heros?
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEa33v0fqrOtW+3GBSnMnJKuV=4edAEYM_yvNVEczJMZ_g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaA32eq802e=+BhJ+_i8Mu2ava22RPD7VejAuC=tWQAag@mail.gmail.com>
 <005701d42df7$6a56c330$3f044990$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEZKmkEqmv3iuUOb5G9F_Qr1FSV1zk52CUn05NYDqgPnCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <00ef01d42e68$7ac82300$70586900$@rainier66.com>
 <0DE5F0EE-A479-488D-B1CD-C71EA4A7670F@gmail.com>
 <003d01d42f2c$45de4c90$d19ae5b0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEbNSqPWDj1a6E7fhA8-rwE6fFbToXWh28DPMhVowM8cBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <009701d42f34$65c57030$31505090$@rainier66.com>
 <CABf9QbCcu8Jd95FB+LkiEVQK+o2mVQDnXoDR=gT+gL5UShB_jg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv2UBg923uS+rzo1f707TQqVHzr6f=BOmB9xdfU7O3CJGA@mail.gmail.com>
 <009201d43195$fdde9d20$f99bd760$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEa33v0fqrOtW+3GBSnMnJKuV=4edAEYM_yvNVEczJMZ_g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <011b01d431c2$df4f0020$9ded0060$@rainier66.com>

 

 

On Wed, Aug 8, 2018 at 1:01 PM, SR Ballard <sen.otaku at gmail.com <mailto:sen.otaku at gmail.com> > wrote:

 

>? Why should we suppose that Uploading would lead to sex addiction?

 

It might be a way to cure it.  With uploading, if I don?t like being cured, I can reboot and get my affliction back.

 

spike

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From spike at rainier66.com  Sat Aug 11 22:32:17 2018
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2018 15:32:17 -0700
Subject: [ExI] female heros?
References: <CAO+xQEaA32eq802e=+BhJ+_i8Mu2ava22RPD7VejAuC=tWQAag@mail.gmail.com>
 <005701d42df7$6a56c330$3f044990$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEZKmkEqmv3iuUOb5G9F_Qr1FSV1zk52CUn05NYDqgPnCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <00ef01d42e68$7ac82300$70586900$@rainier66.com>
 <0DE5F0EE-A479-488D-B1CD-C71EA4A7670F@gmail.com>
 <003d01d42f2c$45de4c90$d19ae5b0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEbNSqPWDj1a6E7fhA8-rwE6fFbToXWh28DPMhVowM8cBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <009701d42f34$65c57030$31505090$@rainier66.com>
 <CABf9QbCcu8Jd95FB+LkiEVQK+o2mVQDnXoDR=gT+gL5UShB_jg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv2UBg923uS+rzo1f707TQqVHzr6f=BOmB9xdfU7O3CJGA@mail.gmail.com>
 <009201d43195$fdde9d20$f99bd760$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEa33v0fqrOtW+3GBSnMnJKuV=4edAEYM_yvNVEczJMZ_g@mail.gmail.com> 
Message-ID: <012a01d431c3$297bccf0$7c7366d0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: spike at rainier66.com <spike at rainier66.com> 



 

On Wed, Aug 8, 2018 at 1:01 PM, SR Ballard <sen.otaku at gmail.com <mailto:sen.otaku at gmail.com> > wrote:

 

>>? Why should we suppose that Uploading would lead to sex addiction?

 

>?It might be a way to cure it.  With uploading, if I don?t like being cured, I can reboot and get my affliction back.

 

>?spike

 

 

 

 

 

 

If I did, would that be called a rebooty?

 

Sheesh, see what I mean?  Sex and humor just seem to be made for each other.

 

spike

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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Sat Aug 11 23:35:30 2018
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2018 19:35:30 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Politics of Radical Life Extension / Indefinite Lifespans
In-Reply-To: <CAAYfg-iGmqiq9Ok18thNZuYqi+vk+dZZ-=c_ZZM8=XziJzGq7g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <001501d43194$e1b42f30$a51c8d90$@natasha.cc>
 <CAAYfg-iGmqiq9Ok18thNZuYqi+vk+dZZ-=c_ZZM8=XziJzGq7g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv3mvpPV1gU-j4a1Gjs9HpnDU1dsdh4=WvZB7gquWzw_Pg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Aug 11, 2018 at 3:26 PM, John Tracy Cunningham <johntc at gmail.com>
wrote:

*>Should substantial healthy life extension become available, I would
> certainly try to obtain the treatment(s) for myself and my wife at a
> minimum.If I live quite a bit longer than expected (which I expect to
> happen), and many of my peers do the same, this will throw the allocated
> budget into a cocked hat.*


I don't think you need to worry about that very much. If life extension
technology has advanced that much then other areas will have advanced too
and improvements in technology has already made us richer. Since 1984 the
manufacturing sector in the USA produces twice as much stuff as it did then
with only 2/3 as many people. And even that statistic understates the true
situation, a 2018 PC is vastly superior to a 1984 PC which was more
expensive, and you couldn't get even a bad iPhone in 1984 at any price.

John K Clark
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From atymes at gmail.com  Sun Aug 12 04:19:40 2018
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2018 21:19:40 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Politics of Radical Life Extension / Indefinite Lifespans
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv3mvpPV1gU-j4a1Gjs9HpnDU1dsdh4=WvZB7gquWzw_Pg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <001501d43194$e1b42f30$a51c8d90$@natasha.cc>
 <CAAYfg-iGmqiq9Ok18thNZuYqi+vk+dZZ-=c_ZZM8=XziJzGq7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv3mvpPV1gU-j4a1Gjs9HpnDU1dsdh4=WvZB7gquWzw_Pg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNSF6b+3AJzjiBX3eYPmGG=2EAxVA3eJEK8XOoV=M89GVQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Aug 11, 2018 at 4:37 PM John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, Aug 11, 2018 at 3:26 PM, John Tracy Cunningham <johntc at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Should substantial healthy life extension become available, I would certainly try to obtain the treatment(s) for myself and my wife at a minimum.If I live quite a bit longer than expected (which I expect to happen), and many of my peers do the same, this will throw the allocated budget into a cocked hat.
> I don't think you need to worry about that very much. If life extension technology has advanced that much then other areas will have advanced too and improvements in technology has already made us richer.

No, actually, problems are cropping up all the time even today, with
life-long pensions bankrupting those who gambled on people not living
substantially longer than when the pension agreements were set up
decades ago.  So far as I can tell, this is becoming the main problem
with pensions - and with corporations and governments who set them up.

I can see the possibility of a law forbidding all future
pensions-for-life, and adjusting any current ones to some (ultimately
arbitrary) cap, after which there will be a bunch of people who had
planned on further pension income who suddenly have no further income
source.

Given recent demonstrations of the new normal for government
competence, I can also see this law being so poorly written that it
whacks Social Security.



From ben at zaiboc.net  Sun Aug 12 08:22:10 2018
From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2018 09:22:10 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Atheism
In-Reply-To: <mailman.25.1534026411.6153.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.25.1534026411.6153.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <5B6FEE32.80803@zaiboc.net>

John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

"I lack a belief there are china teapots in orbit around Uranus and I 
believe there is a lack of China teapots in orbit around Uranus."


This is where the different meanings of the word 'believe' comes in. You 
are using the word to mean "I think". Your belief in this case is 
subject to revision in the face of evidence.

This is not the same as religious Belief, which is resistant to, or at 
least independent of, evidence. Thinking something is true without good 
reason, and persisting in that when shown good reason not to, that's the 
kind of belief that I'm talking about.

The reason I say atheists don't 'believe' in the lack of gods is because 
if they were presented with good evidence for the existence of gods, 
they would change their minds. When presented with reasons why belief in 
gods is not a good idea (e.g. that they are logically impossible, that 
the belief does more harm than good, that it takes away moral agency 
from the individual, and many other reasons), religious people, on the 
whole, do not change their minds. They don't /think/ that gods exist, 
they *Believe* it.

-- 
Ben Zaiboc

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From sen.otaku at gmail.com  Sun Aug 12 08:38:16 2018
From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard)
Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2018 03:38:16 -0500
Subject: [ExI] female heros?
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYPuLLAa-xdD5wjFoqimncpi5wNLchcr762tQSTvPRJtA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaA32eq802e=+BhJ+_i8Mu2ava22RPD7VejAuC=tWQAag@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CABf9QbANhAvW7Kq-wnvirE0YZdc2SEC1Szx40rhVpDxjG9STXw@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Aug 10, 2018 at 12:14 PM, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com
> wrote:
>
>
> I taught a class in Human Sexuality in the 80s and 90s and had no trouble
> at all finding research on orgasms of all types.  The first one I found was
> John Watson, who got thrown out of Johns Hopkins University because of his
> sexual experiments with a female grad student (Rosalie Raynor of the Watson
> and Raynor publication) in a basement where they were hooked up to various
> recording devices.  I reckon they did not publish that one.
>
> I think if you'll look, you'll find gobs of orgasm research.  What
> questions do you want answered?  How about Freud's about the difference
> between a vaginal and clitoral orgasm?
>
> bill w
>

Female sexuality & sexual health is more complicated than just orgasms.
And those are the parts of female sexuality and health that are not well
explored.
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Sun Aug 12 13:44:15 2018
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2018 09:44:15 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Politics of Radical Life Extension / Indefinite Lifespans
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNSF6b+3AJzjiBX3eYPmGG=2EAxVA3eJEK8XOoV=M89GVQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <001501d43194$e1b42f30$a51c8d90$@natasha.cc>
 <CAAYfg-iGmqiq9Ok18thNZuYqi+vk+dZZ-=c_ZZM8=XziJzGq7g@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAJPayv3WjMshOswomwwMZGBqJ=tZd4fibnpChBb5wT+fHiDtBw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Aug 12, 2018 at 12:19 AM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:


>
>
>
> * > I can see the possibility of a law forbidding all future
> pensions-for-life, and adjusting any current ones to some (ultimately
> arbitrary) cap, after which there will be a bunch of people who had planned
> on further pension income who suddenly have no further income source.*


Anything could happen given Washington's current irrationality and contempt
even for the very idea of objective facts. But if the above does occur its
cause will have nothing to do with advances in science or technology, it
will happen because some chant screaming cult like politician has managed
to convince 23% of the American voters that everything he says is true and
the above would be good for them (although it calls itself a republic it is
possible for you to win a election and become president of the USA even if
your opponent gets 77% of the popular vote and you only get 23%).

John K Clark
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sun Aug 12 13:49:10 2018
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2018 08:49:10 -0500
Subject: [ExI] female heros?
In-Reply-To: <CABf9QbANhAvW7Kq-wnvirE0YZdc2SEC1Szx40rhVpDxjG9STXw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaA32eq802e=+BhJ+_i8Mu2ava22RPD7VejAuC=tWQAag@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZ+CdEZSz6kvxovroAG2isKabFtsrx5oK4cgfZNTqZwqA@mail.gmail.com>

Female sexuality & sexual health is more complicated than just orgasms.
And those are the parts of female sexuality and health that are not well
explored.
sr ballard wrote

Yes, of course.  Can you give me some sort of idea what you are talking
about?  bill w


On Sun, Aug 12, 2018 at 3:38 AM, SR Ballard <sen.otaku at gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Fri, Aug 10, 2018 at 12:14 PM, William Flynn Wallace <
> foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> I taught a class in Human Sexuality in the 80s and 90s and had no trouble
>> at all finding research on orgasms of all types.  The first one I found was
>> John Watson, who got thrown out of Johns Hopkins University because of his
>> sexual experiments with a female grad student (Rosalie Raynor of the Watson
>> and Raynor publication) in a basement where they were hooked up to various
>> recording devices.  I reckon they did not publish that one.
>>
>> I think if you'll look, you'll find gobs of orgasm research.  What
>> questions do you want answered?  How about Freud's about the difference
>> between a vaginal and clitoral orgasm?
>>
>> bill w
>>
>
> Female sexuality & sexual health is more complicated than just orgasms.
> And those are the parts of female sexuality and health that are not well
> explored.
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From avant at sollegro.com  Mon Aug 13 06:43:33 2018
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2018 23:43:33 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Electoral College was Re: Politics of Radical Life Extension
 / Indefinite Lifespans
Message-ID: <4369dd18080c87e05563369902d42aba.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>

John Clark wrote:

> Anything could happen given Washington's current irrationality and
> contempt even for the very idea of objective facts. But if the above does
> occur its cause will have nothing to do with advances in science or
> technology, it will happen because some chant screaming cult like
> politician has managed to convince 23% of the American voters that
> everything he says is true and the above would be good for them (although
> it calls itself a republic it is possible for you to win a election and
> become president of the USA even if your opponent gets 77% of the popular
> vote and you only get 23%).

Yes, that is called the Electoral College and by my reckoning and the
deliberate framing of the constitution by Hamilton, Jefferson et. al., it
is a feature and not a bug. The Electoral College was implemented with the
same rationale of giving every state two senators. It was to express the
egalitarian concept that the various states of the union were in some
sense peers or "equal partners" in the United States and were of similar
standing in the eyes of the federal government.

The alternative is to have the interests of coastal mega-cities completely
dominate the interests of the farmers, miners, and factory-workers of the
entire interior of the country.

If you want to condemn the Electoral College, then you have to come up
with a better, more rational reason than "it allowed Trump to mobilize the
vote in the fly-over states and get elected". Otherwise, you are talking
about amending the constitution over the election of a president that you
don't like . . . which is clearly an over-wrought emotional response.

Stuart LaForge




From atymes at gmail.com  Mon Aug 13 09:31:33 2018
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2018 02:31:33 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Electoral College was Re: Politics of Radical Life
 Extension / Indefinite Lifespans
In-Reply-To: <4369dd18080c87e05563369902d42aba.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
References: <4369dd18080c87e05563369902d42aba.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNSUxJkUpHhxStM4JQTO+-DwVmrxBYSDKtu1vkRBejU56g@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Aug 13, 2018 at 12:40 AM Stuart LaForge <avant at sollegro.com> wrote:
> If you want to condemn the Electoral College, then you have to come up
> with a better, more rational reason than "it allowed Trump to mobilize the
> vote in the fly-over states and get elected". Otherwise, you are talking
> about amending the constitution over the election of a president that you
> don't like . . . which is clearly an over-wrought emotional response.

When it comes to Trump, and the amount of damage he is doing daily, no
such response is over-wrought, it seems.

That said, there are more rational reasons.  Start off with:
presidential campaigns tend to ignore those states which are likely to
swing one way or another, and their issues, because under the
Electoral College now there is no reason to pay attention to them.
Losing a state's electors by 55% of the vote is the same result as
losing them by 5% of the vote.  Those states which claim to be
swinging one way or the other get all the attention - and their issues
addressed, to the exclusion of anyone else's (save for overlapping or
common issues).


From johnkclark at gmail.com  Mon Aug 13 15:57:03 2018
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2018 11:57:03 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Electoral College was Re: Politics of Radical Life
 Extension / Indefinite Lifespans
In-Reply-To: <4369dd18080c87e05563369902d42aba.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
References: <4369dd18080c87e05563369902d42aba.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv1o7ArSF=strgBGRDZd=nwM34ZofTP9L6JceRq0N5qdOw@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Aug 13, 2018 at 2:43 AM, Stuart LaForge <avant at sollegro.com> wrote:

>
>
> *Yes, that is called the Electoral College and by my reckoning and the
> deliberate framing of the constitution by Hamilton, Jefferson et. al.,*


I don't care who framed it, the Electoral College has proven itself to be a
disaster.

*> it is a feature and not a bug.*


That's what every programer says when defending his crappy software, and
slavery wasn't the only bug in the constitution software.


> *>The Electoral College was implemented with the**same rationale of
> giving every state two senators.*


Yes the exact same boneheaded rationale was given for both. A voter in
Wyoming has 68.3 times more influence over what happens in the US senate
than a voter in California, and that's just nuts.

> *>It was to express the egalitarian concept that the various states of the
> union were in some sense peers or "equal partners" in the United States and
> were of similar standing in the eyes of the federal government.*


But in any rational system all the states should *NOT* have equal standing
in the eyes of the federal government because neither the state of Wyoming
nor the state of California is a rational being, but individual voters are.
A Wyoming voter has 66.7 times as much influence over who the president
should be than a California voter, and that's just nuts.
>
>
*>The alternative is to have the interests of coastal mega-cities
> completely dominate the interests of the farmers, miners, and
> factory-workers of the entire interior of the country.*


The coastal mega-cities SHOULD dominate if that's where the people live! If
the number of cows or wheat fields you own determine how powerful your vote
is why not the value of your stock portfolio or the square footage of your
penthouse apartment? And its not as if the cow owners have displayed
exceptional wisdom, in recent years the Electoral College laid turds in our
laps in the form of Donald Trump and George W Bush, and they are the 2
worst presidents in my lifetime. Trump has only been working on it for 2
years but is already well on track to become the worst president not just
in my lifetime but in American history.

*>If you want to condemn the Electoral College, then you have to come up
> with a better, more rational reason than "it allowed Trump to mobilize the
> vote in the fly-over states and get elected". *


Why? The people picked Clinton but they don't count, the Electoral College
picked Trump and they do count. That reason alone is more than enough to
condemn the Electoral College.


> *>Otherwise, you are talking about amending the constitution over the
> election of a president that youdon't like*


Trump is far more than just another president I don't like. In its history
America has had good presidents and bad but never a creature like Donald
Trump, he is unique. I'm really worried about 2020, and not just about what
will happen if he wins reelection, I am even more worried about what will
happen if he doesn't. In 2016 Trump won but was a sore winner and bizarrely
claimed the election that he won was fake,  if he looses in 2020 does
anybody really think he will be a good sport about it and say it was a fair
election? I don't know if Trump has the ability to make himself President
For Life but if he thinks he does there is not a doubt in my mind he will
try for it. Trump is not very smart and is known to vastly overestimate his
ability so he might fail, but even a failed attempt will be extremely ugly
and dangerous.


 John K Clark
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From avant at sollegro.com  Wed Aug 15 21:12:45 2018
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2018 14:12:45 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Electoral College
Message-ID: <115f0efa0d6e46a65566799cc9a97859.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>

Adrian Tymes wrote:

> When it comes to Trump, and the amount of damage he is doing daily, no
> such response is over-wrought, it seems.

I am genuinely worried that Trump might be Putin's proxy as evidenced by
Trump's treatment of NATO and the evidence of collusion with the Russian
government prior to the election. And no, I don't want the USA run by
Putin, Israel, or any other foreign interests really.

That being said, the streets are not exactly running red with the blood of
the non-believers just yet either. So the damage is not at all obvious, at
least not to me.

> That said, there are more rational reasons.? Start off with:
> presidential campaigns tend to ignore those states which are likely to
> swing one way or another, and their issues, because under the Electoral
> College now there is no reason to pay attention to them.

It is not a failure of the constitution that the individual states have
become so entrenched by one political party or the other as to make their
elections completely predictable. Being predictable is poor strategy in
general because being predictable leads to one being taken for granted by
ones friends and out maneuvered by ones enemies.

> Losing a state's electors by 55% of the vote is the same result as
> losing them by 5% of the vote.? Those states which claim to be swinging one
> way or the other get all the attention - and their issues addressed, to
> the exclusion of anyone else's (save for overlapping or common issues).

Being ignored by candidates is the price states pay for being unwavering
blue or red. It is the purple states that get the most attention. So you
should try to make your state purple. I don't see what the advantage is
for the average voter to be a party shill anyhow.

Why should voters be any more loyal to their political parties than the
candidates that they vote for ultimately prove to be? Feel good
ideological talking points that somehow never get translated into policy?
Both political parties give rise to moderate nepotistic presidents that
kowtow to wall street bankers and wealthy campaign contributors for the
most part.

So the problem is with how voters present themselves to political
candidates and not the Electoral College. If you joined a particular
political party because it's the one your neighbors belong to, then you
are part of the problem.

Furthermore, if we were to elect presidents by popular vote, the dozen
most populous states would get all the attention by candidates. Which
doesn't solve the problem of only a few states getting their concerns
addressed, it simply shifts those states to the ones with big cities.

Stuart LaForge






From avant at sollegro.com  Thu Aug 16 07:39:18 2018
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2018 00:39:18 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Electoral College
Message-ID: <d7053975d604aaa0a366531a2e2e1615.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>

John Clark wrote:

> I don't care who framed it, the Electoral College has proven itself to be
> a disaster.

Not if your goal is to remain 50 sovereign states united in a common
wealth under a federal government limited by the decentralization of power
afforded by multiple branches with checks and balances between one another
and between the states themselves.

>> it is a feature and not a bug.

> That's what every programer says when defending his crappy software, and
> slavery wasn't the only bug in the constitution software.

Except that the constitution is not crappy software. No crappy software
boasts over a one million well-armed and highly-trained killers waiting to
defend it at a moment's notice.

Don't you see what makes the USA so special is that the constitution
limits and decentralizes governmental power in this country by spreading
it out? That you can simply choose which laws you want live under just by
moving from one state to another?

The balancing of state and federal powers is one of the things that make
the USA such a unique experiment in governance and you owe all of that to
the Constitution. It represents the distilled consensus of hundreds of
learned men analyzing and debating the successes and failures of Athens,
Rome, and other historic powers.

That nobody, not even Trump, a billionaire and POTUS, can throw people in
prison for bad-mouthing him and must resort to silly flame wars over
Twitter is testament that the Constitution is working precisely as
advertised.

And don't blame the constitution for slavery. Slavery was the way of the
world long before the constitution was penned and regardless the 13th
Amendment fixed that error.

> Yes the exact same boneheaded rationale was given for both. A voter in
> Wyoming has 68.3 times more influence over what happens in the US senate
> than a voter in California, and that's just nuts. ? ?

No what is nuts is that 12% of the U.S. population would willingly choose
to live asshole to elbow in a state that burns for 3 months out of the
year and will put them in jail over a soda straw. If you envy Wyoming's
senatorial influence, then move to Wyoming. For the price of a 3-bedroom
house in the Bay Area you could have a thousand acres of land.

>> It was to express the egalitarian concept that the various states of
>> the union were in some sense peers or "equal partners" in the United
>> States and were of similar standing in the eyes of the federal
>> government.
>
> But in any rational system all the states should NOT have equal standing
> in the eyes of the federal government because neither the state of
> Wyoming nor the state of California is a rational being, but individual
> voters are. A Wyoming voter has 66.7 times as much influence over who the
> president should be than a California voter, and that's just nuts.

Both states and voters are rational beings, but they are emergently
manifest at different scales of complexity. There might very well be some
abstract thought-space analogous to your mind that emerges from the
network of people within groups such as cities and states, just as your
own mind arises from the network of neurons in your brain.

Of course, I can't prove the state of California is conscious but I can't
prove you are conscious either. All I see are two entities, one much
larger than the other, acting in their own self-interest so I deem them
both rational.

As far as Wyoming goes, once again, if influencing elections is important
to you, then move to Wyoming.

>> The alternative is to have the interests of coastal mega-cities
>> completely dominate the interests of the farmers, miners, and
>> factory-workers of the entire interior of the country.
>
> The coastal mega-cities SHOULD dominate if that's where the people live!
> If the number of cows or wheat fields you own determine how powerful your
> vote is why not the value of your stock portfolio or the square footage
> of your penthouse apartment?

First off, it isn't about how much land you have, its about the
sovereignty of that land and the people that thereon dwell. The Electoral
College and Constitution protect the sovereignty of the individual states.

If you have a penthouse apartment and a sizable stock portfolio, then
write a substantial check to presidential candidate of your choice. I
think every dollar spent on campaign funding and lobbying is worth
hundreds of votes in this country.

> And its not as if the cow owners have
> displayed exceptional wisdom, in recent years the Electoral College laid
> turds in our laps in the form of Donald Trump and George W Bush, and they
> are the 2 worst presidents in my lifetime. Trump has only been working on
> it for 2 years but is already well on track to become the worst president
> not just in my lifetime but in American history.

Well maybe if a presidential candidate that can't find common ground with
the farmer who feeds the nation doesn't deserve to be president.


>> If you want to condemn the Electoral College, then you have to come up
>> with a better, more rational reason than "it allowed Trump to mobilize
>> the vote in the fly-over states and get elected".

> Why? The people picked Clinton but they don't count, the Electoral
> College picked Trump and they do count. That reason alone is more than
> enough to condemn the Electoral College.

No it is not. I think part of the problem is that you think there is, or
should be, but a single election for the POTUS but that is not the case.
There is in actuality 51 separate and independent elections for the POTUS,
one in each state and DC. This decentralization means added security from
voter fraud. Because of this, the election for the POTUS is hard to steal
as opposed to election by popular vote which has but a single point of
failure.

Diversity is a hedge against extinction and the Electoral College allows
all 50 states to be beautiful diverse sovereign entities rather than
cookie cutter provinces of California or New York.


>> Otherwise, you are talking about amending the constitution over the
>> election of a president that you
> don't like
>
> Trump is far more than just another president I don't like. In its
> history America has had good presidents and bad but never a creature like
> Donald Trump, he is unique. I'm really worried about 2020, and not just
> about what will happen if he wins reelection, I am even more worried
> about what will happen if he doesn't. In 2016 Trump won but was a sore
> winner and bizarrely claimed the election that he won was fake, ?if he
> looses in 2020 does anybody really think he will be a good sport about it
> and say it was a fair election?

If the democrats win the midterms, there is a chance they might be able to
impeach him. If not his opinion of the election won't matter one way or
the other. If he loses, then there might be recounts, lawsuits, and what
not but come January the new president will be sworn in regardless. After
that, if Trump refuses to leave, he just becomes a nut job squatting in
the White House and will be forcibly removed by the secret service.

> I don't know if Trump has the ability to
> make himself President For Life but if he thinks he does there is not a
> doubt in my mind he will try for it. Trump is not very smart and is known
> to vastly overestimate his ability so he might fail, but even a failed
> attempt will be extremely ugly and dangerous.

When the time comes, he will have no choice but to step down. The armed
forces of the USA are sworn to be loyal to the Constitution and not to a
man, not even the president. Without the support of the military, he has
no chance of staging any kind of coup d'etat. He is but a draft dodger in
the hotel business, not Napoleon Bonaparte or Julius Caesar.

Stuart LaForge







From giulio at gmail.com  Thu Aug 16 10:55:49 2018
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2018 12:55:49 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Electoral College
In-Reply-To: <d7053975d604aaa0a366531a2e2e1615.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
References: <d7053975d604aaa0a366531a2e2e1615.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
Message-ID: <CAKTCJyc9XkuG6604yDTyP+h-hWOs8fbCbFi+of7CwT6NRxss=A@mail.gmail.com>

Bravo Stuart. Well said.

On 2018. Aug 16., Thu at 9:41, Stuart LaForge <avant at sollegro.com> wrote:

> John Clark wrote:
>
> > I don't care who framed it, the Electoral College has proven itself to be
> > a disaster.
>
> Not if your goal is to remain 50 sovereign states united in a common
> wealth under a federal government limited by the decentralization of power
> afforded by multiple branches with checks and balances between one another
> and between the states themselves.
>
> >> it is a feature and not a bug.
>
> > That's what every programer says when defending his crappy software, and
> > slavery wasn't the only bug in the constitution software.
>
> Except that the constitution is not crappy software. No crappy software
> boasts over a one million well-armed and highly-trained killers waiting to
> defend it at a moment's notice.
>
> Don't you see what makes the USA so special is that the constitution
> limits and decentralizes governmental power in this country by spreading
> it out? That you can simply choose which laws you want live under just by
> moving from one state to another?
>
> The balancing of state and federal powers is one of the things that make
> the USA such a unique experiment in governance and you owe all of that to
> the Constitution. It represents the distilled consensus of hundreds of
> learned men analyzing and debating the successes and failures of Athens,
> Rome, and other historic powers.
>
> That nobody, not even Trump, a billionaire and POTUS, can throw people in
> prison for bad-mouthing him and must resort to silly flame wars over
> Twitter is testament that the Constitution is working precisely as
> advertised.
>
> And don't blame the constitution for slavery. Slavery was the way of the
> world long before the constitution was penned and regardless the 13th
> Amendment fixed that error.
>
> > Yes the exact same boneheaded rationale was given for both. A voter in
> > Wyoming has 68.3 times more influence over what happens in the US senate
> > than a voter in California, and that's just nuts.
>
> No what is nuts is that 12% of the U.S. population would willingly choose
> to live asshole to elbow in a state that burns for 3 months out of the
> year and will put them in jail over a soda straw. If you envy Wyoming's
> senatorial influence, then move to Wyoming. For the price of a 3-bedroom
> house in the Bay Area you could have a thousand acres of land.
>
> >> It was to express the egalitarian concept that the various states of
> >> the union were in some sense peers or "equal partners" in the United
> >> States and were of similar standing in the eyes of the federal
> >> government.
> >
> > But in any rational system all the states should NOT have equal standing
> > in the eyes of the federal government because neither the state of
> > Wyoming nor the state of California is a rational being, but individual
> > voters are. A Wyoming voter has 66.7 times as much influence over who the
> > president should be than a California voter, and that's just nuts.
>
> Both states and voters are rational beings, but they are emergently
> manifest at different scales of complexity. There might very well be some
> abstract thought-space analogous to your mind that emerges from the
> network of people within groups such as cities and states, just as your
> own mind arises from the network of neurons in your brain.
>
> Of course, I can't prove the state of California is conscious but I can't
> prove you are conscious either. All I see are two entities, one much
> larger than the other, acting in their own self-interest so I deem them
> both rational.
>
> As far as Wyoming goes, once again, if influencing elections is important
> to you, then move to Wyoming.
>
> >> The alternative is to have the interests of coastal mega-cities
> >> completely dominate the interests of the farmers, miners, and
> >> factory-workers of the entire interior of the country.
> >
> > The coastal mega-cities SHOULD dominate if that's where the people live!
> > If the number of cows or wheat fields you own determine how powerful your
> > vote is why not the value of your stock portfolio or the square footage
> > of your penthouse apartment?
>
> First off, it isn't about how much land you have, its about the
> sovereignty of that land and the people that thereon dwell. The Electoral
> College and Constitution protect the sovereignty of the individual states.
>
> If you have a penthouse apartment and a sizable stock portfolio, then
> write a substantial check to presidential candidate of your choice. I
> think every dollar spent on campaign funding and lobbying is worth
> hundreds of votes in this country.
>
> > And its not as if the cow owners have
> > displayed exceptional wisdom, in recent years the Electoral College laid
> > turds in our laps in the form of Donald Trump and George W Bush, and they
> > are the 2 worst presidents in my lifetime. Trump has only been working on
> > it for 2 years but is already well on track to become the worst president
> > not just in my lifetime but in American history.
>
> Well maybe if a presidential candidate that can't find common ground with
> the farmer who feeds the nation doesn't deserve to be president.
>
>
> >> If you want to condemn the Electoral College, then you have to come up
> >> with a better, more rational reason than "it allowed Trump to mobilize
> >> the vote in the fly-over states and get elected".
>
> > Why? The people picked Clinton but they don't count, the Electoral
> > College picked Trump and they do count. That reason alone is more than
> > enough to condemn the Electoral College.
>
> No it is not. I think part of the problem is that you think there is, or
> should be, but a single election for the POTUS but that is not the case.
> There is in actuality 51 separate and independent elections for the POTUS,
> one in each state and DC. This decentralization means added security from
> voter fraud. Because of this, the election for the POTUS is hard to steal
> as opposed to election by popular vote which has but a single point of
> failure.
>
> Diversity is a hedge against extinction and the Electoral College allows
> all 50 states to be beautiful diverse sovereign entities rather than
> cookie cutter provinces of California or New York.
>
>
> >> Otherwise, you are talking about amending the constitution over the
> >> election of a president that you
> > don't like
> >
> > Trump is far more than just another president I don't like. In its
> > history America has had good presidents and bad but never a creature like
> > Donald Trump, he is unique. I'm really worried about 2020, and not just
> > about what will happen if he wins reelection, I am even more worried
> > about what will happen if he doesn't. In 2016 Trump won but was a sore
> > winner and bizarrely claimed the election that he won was fake,  if he
> > looses in 2020 does anybody really think he will be a good sport about it
> > and say it was a fair election?
>
> If the democrats win the midterms, there is a chance they might be able to
> impeach him. If not his opinion of the election won't matter one way or
> the other. If he loses, then there might be recounts, lawsuits, and what
> not but come January the new president will be sworn in regardless. After
> that, if Trump refuses to leave, he just becomes a nut job squatting in
> the White House and will be forcibly removed by the secret service.
>
> > I don't know if Trump has the ability to
> > make himself President For Life but if he thinks he does there is not a
> > doubt in my mind he will try for it. Trump is not very smart and is known
> > to vastly overestimate his ability so he might fail, but even a failed
> > attempt will be extremely ugly and dangerous.
>
> When the time comes, he will have no choice but to step down. The armed
> forces of the USA are sworn to be loyal to the Constitution and not to a
> man, not even the president. Without the support of the military, he has
> no chance of staging any kind of coup d'etat. He is but a draft dodger in
> the hotel business, not Napoleon Bonaparte or Julius Caesar.
>
> Stuart LaForge
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Thu Aug 16 14:08:28 2018
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2018 07:08:28 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Electoral College
In-Reply-To: <d7053975d604aaa0a366531a2e2e1615.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
References: <d7053975d604aaa0a366531a2e2e1615.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
Message-ID: <008c01d4356a$9be2e210$d3a8a630$@rainier66.com>





Stuart, this was the best post I have read in a long time.  I left it all in there rather than trim a word, in case anyone missed the original discussion.

Your comment really caught my eye:


>... There is in actuality 51 separate and independent elections for the POTUS, one in each state and DC. This decentralization means added security from voter fraud. Because of this, the election for the POTUS is hard to steal as opposed to election by popular vote which has but a single point of failure...


This has worried me for a long time.  Voting machines are inherently dangerous.  Having an electoral college means that the commies need to hack machines in several different states:

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/8/13/17683666/florida-voting-system-hack-children

The framers of the constitution didn't foresee voting machines, but their safeguard worked anyway.  The framers did foresee a sitting president refusing to accept an election and declaring himself POTUS for life.  So they wrote it such that the SCOTUS only needs to swear in a new POTUS, with no need for an actual ceremony to swear out the old one.  That's why none of the former occupants of that office have attempted to hold on.

spike





-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Stuart LaForge
Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2018 12:39 AM
To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
Subject: Re: [ExI] Electoral College

John Clark wrote:

> I don't care who framed it, the Electoral College has proven itself to 
> be a disaster.

Not if your goal is to remain 50 sovereign states united in a common wealth under a federal government limited by the decentralization of power afforded by multiple branches with checks and balances between one another and between the states themselves.

>> it is a feature and not a bug.

> That's what every programer says when defending his crappy software, 
> and slavery wasn't the only bug in the constitution software.

Except that the constitution is not crappy software. No crappy software boasts over a one million well-armed and highly-trained killers waiting to defend it at a moment's notice.

Don't you see what makes the USA so special is that the constitution limits and decentralizes governmental power in this country by spreading it out? That you can simply choose which laws you want live under just by moving from one state to another?

The balancing of state and federal powers is one of the things that make the USA such a unique experiment in governance and you owe all of that to the Constitution. It represents the distilled consensus of hundreds of learned men analyzing and debating the successes and failures of Athens, Rome, and other historic powers.

That nobody, not even Trump, a billionaire and POTUS, can throw people in prison for bad-mouthing him and must resort to silly flame wars over Twitter is testament that the Constitution is working precisely as advertised.

And don't blame the constitution for slavery. Slavery was the way of the world long before the constitution was penned and regardless the 13th Amendment fixed that error.

> Yes the exact same boneheaded rationale was given for both. A voter in 
> Wyoming has 68.3 times more influence over what happens in the US 
> senate than a voter in California, and that's just nuts.

No what is nuts is that 12% of the U.S. population would willingly choose to live asshole to elbow in a state that burns for 3 months out of the year and will put them in jail over a soda straw. If you envy Wyoming's senatorial influence, then move to Wyoming. For the price of a 3-bedroom house in the Bay Area you could have a thousand acres of land.

>> It was to express the egalitarian concept that the various states of 
>> the union were in some sense peers or "equal partners" in the United 
>> States and were of similar standing in the eyes of the federal 
>> government.
>
> But in any rational system all the states should NOT have equal 
> standing in the eyes of the federal government because neither the 
> state of Wyoming nor the state of California is a rational being, but 
> individual voters are. A Wyoming voter has 66.7 times as much 
> influence over who the president should be than a California voter, and that's just nuts.

Both states and voters are rational beings, but they are emergently manifest at different scales of complexity. There might very well be some abstract thought-space analogous to your mind that emerges from the network of people within groups such as cities and states, just as your own mind arises from the network of neurons in your brain.

Of course, I can't prove the state of California is conscious but I can't prove you are conscious either. All I see are two entities, one much larger than the other, acting in their own self-interest so I deem them both rational.

As far as Wyoming goes, once again, if influencing elections is important to you, then move to Wyoming.

>> The alternative is to have the interests of coastal mega-cities 
>> completely dominate the interests of the farmers, miners, and 
>> factory-workers of the entire interior of the country.
>
> The coastal mega-cities SHOULD dominate if that's where the people live!
> If the number of cows or wheat fields you own determine how powerful 
> your vote is why not the value of your stock portfolio or the square 
> footage of your penthouse apartment?

First off, it isn't about how much land you have, its about the sovereignty of that land and the people that thereon dwell. The Electoral College and Constitution protect the sovereignty of the individual states.

If you have a penthouse apartment and a sizable stock portfolio, then write a substantial check to presidential candidate of your choice. I think every dollar spent on campaign funding and lobbying is worth hundreds of votes in this country.

> And its not as if the cow owners have
> displayed exceptional wisdom, in recent years the Electoral College 
> laid turds in our laps in the form of Donald Trump and George W Bush, 
> and they are the 2 worst presidents in my lifetime. Trump has only 
> been working on it for 2 years but is already well on track to become 
> the worst president not just in my lifetime but in American history.

Well maybe if a presidential candidate that can't find common ground with the farmer who feeds the nation doesn't deserve to be president.


>> If you want to condemn the Electoral College, then you have to come 
>> up with a better, more rational reason than "it allowed Trump to 
>> mobilize the vote in the fly-over states and get elected".

> Why? The people picked Clinton but they don't count, the Electoral 
> College picked Trump and they do count. That reason alone is more than 
> enough to condemn the Electoral College.

No it is not. I think part of the problem is that you think there is, or should be, but a single election for the POTUS but that is not the case.
There is in actuality 51 separate and independent elections for the POTUS, one in each state and DC. This decentralization means added security from voter fraud. Because of this, the election for the POTUS is hard to steal as opposed to election by popular vote which has but a single point of failure.

Diversity is a hedge against extinction and the Electoral College allows all 50 states to be beautiful diverse sovereign entities rather than cookie cutter provinces of California or New York.


>> Otherwise, you are talking about amending the constitution over the 
>> election of a president that you
> don't like
>
> Trump is far more than just another president I don't like. In its 
> history America has had good presidents and bad but never a creature 
> like Donald Trump, he is unique. I'm really worried about 2020, and 
> not just about what will happen if he wins reelection, I am even more 
> worried about what will happen if he doesn't. In 2016 Trump won but 
> was a sore winner and bizarrely claimed the election that he won was 
> fake,  if he looses in 2020 does anybody really think he will be a 
> good sport about it and say it was a fair election?

If the democrats win the midterms, there is a chance they might be able to impeach him. If not his opinion of the election won't matter one way or the other. If he loses, then there might be recounts, lawsuits, and what not but come January the new president will be sworn in regardless. After that, if Trump refuses to leave, he just becomes a nut job squatting in the White House and will be forcibly removed by the secret service.

> I don't know if Trump has the ability to make himself President For 
> Life but if he thinks he does there is not a doubt in my mind he will 
> try for it. Trump is not very smart and is known to vastly 
> overestimate his ability so he might fail, but even a failed attempt 
> will be extremely ugly and dangerous.

When the time comes, he will have no choice but to step down. The armed forces of the USA are sworn to be loyal to the Constitution and not to a man, not even the president. Without the support of the military, he has no chance of staging any kind of coup d'etat. He is but a draft dodger in the hotel business, not Napoleon Bonaparte or Julius Caesar.

Stuart LaForge





_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat




From sparge at gmail.com  Thu Aug 16 17:11:39 2018
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2018 13:11:39 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Electoral College
In-Reply-To: <d7053975d604aaa0a366531a2e2e1615.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
References: <d7053975d604aaa0a366531a2e2e1615.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2euVA_r0bvUTs=fSaekO6TjUpFPZ9Ob9FBrwHGpXxJ3Zw@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Aug 16, 2018 at 3:41 AM Stuart LaForge <avant at sollegro.com> wrote:

>
> No it is not. I think part of the problem is that you think there is, or
> should be, but a single election for the POTUS but that is not the case.
> There is in actuality 51 separate and independent elections for the POTUS,
> one in each state and DC.
>

52, actually. The 51 you mention, that elect the Electors, and the one by
the Electoral College that elects the President.

-Dave
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Thu Aug 16 20:44:10 2018
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2018 16:44:10 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Electoral College
In-Reply-To: <d7053975d604aaa0a366531a2e2e1615.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
References: <d7053975d604aaa0a366531a2e2e1615.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv3mAyPHVJir8aEj_bCtV5rH=9JMx4ZbzbUW0YMcA6-hWg@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Aug 16, 2018  Stuart LaForge <avant at sollegro.com> wrote:

> >>
>> I don't care who framed it, the Electoral College has proven itself to be
>> a disaster.
>
>


> >
> *Not if your goal is to remain 50 sovereign states united in a common
> wealth*


History calls it "the great compromise of 1797" and without it there would
be no agreement on a constitution, but never forget that's what it was, a
compromise; it was decided they would meet halfway between a good solution
and a terrible solution and we ended up with the mediocre solution we're
stuck with today. And are you really going to argue that it is logical for
one voter to be 70 times as important as another for no reason other than
geography? And knowing what you know now about George W Busch and Donald
Trump are you really going to say with a straight face that the
super-voters in Wyoming have historically displayed 70 times more wisdom
than others and thus deserves their superior voting status?

*> the constitution is not crappy software. No crappy software boasts over
> a one million well-armed and highly-trained killers waiting to defend it at
> a moment's notice.*

If your criteria for quality is nothing but the ability to grow then
computer viruses are wonderful software and so is cancer, but if  other
qualities are also important then not so much. I would argue that both Mein
Kampf and the Communist Manifesto are examples of very crappy software, and
yet millions of highly-trained people were willing to kill and die for them

> *> nobody, not even Trump, a billionaire and POTUS, can throw people
> in prison for bad-mouthing him*

Not yet but its coming, Trump has made no secret of the fact he wants to
change the libel laws so even a president can sue a newspaper if they say
something he doesn't like
.

https://www.politico.com/blogs/on-media/2016/02/donald-trump-libel-laws-219866

And to this day Trump is ordering his mob to chant about throwing his
political opponent from the last election into prison. Doesn't that bother
you?

> >>
>> A voter in Wyoming has 68.3 times more influence over what happens in the
>> US senate than a voter in California, and that's just nuts.
>
>
>
>
> >
> *No what is nuts is that 12% of the U.S. population would willingly choose
> to live asshole to elbow in a state that burns for 3 months out of the year*

Worldwide half of the humans that are on this planet live less than 200
miles from the sea and 2/3 less than 400 miles because that is where things
are more habitable; its dryer further inland and hotter in the summer and
colder in the winter and far from both the ocean superhighway and the ocean
grocery store.


*> If you envy Wyoming's senatorial influence, then move to Wyoming. *



So you think its appropriate for the federal government to discourage
people from living in California and encourage then to live in Wyoming?
And Stuart I have to say if Wyoming was the most liberal state in the union
with 95% being Bernie Sanders fans and California the most conservative
with 95% being avid Trump fans I don't think you would be defending a
Wyoming voter having 70 times the influence of a California voter quite so
vigorously.  Why anyone with even the slightest sympathy for Extropian
ideas would treat a anti-free market anti-free press anti-balanced budget
anti-marijuana anti-right to die anti-science Putin flunkey like Trump with
anything other than contempt was a mystery to me when his name first came
up on this list about 3 years ago, and its still a mystery to me today.
It's completely out of character and I just don't understand why so many
Extropians think having a dictator loving anti-intellectual telling them
what to do is appealing.


*> Both states and voters are rational beings, but they are
> emergently manifest at different scales of complexity. There might very
> well be some abstract thought-space analogous to your mind that emerges
> from the network of people within groups such as cities and states, just as
> your own mind arises from the network of neurons in your brain. Of course,
> I can't prove the state of California is conscious but I can't prove you
> are conscious either. *



Dogs are probably conscious too but they don't get to vote like we do
because they have fewer neurons within their head. If Wyoming is conscious
then California is more so because it has more people within its borders.

> *> it isn't about how much land you have, its about the sovereignty of
> that land *

Why is Wyoming sovereignty 70 times more important than
California sovereignty? We both know the answer to that, Wyoming votes
Trump's way and California does not.

*>The Electoral College and Constitution protect the sovereignty of the
individual states.*

I don't give a hoot in hell if states are treated unfairly or not, but I do
care if people are.

> >
> *There is in actuality 51 separate and independent elections for the
> POTUS, one in each state and DC. This decentralization means added security
> from voter fraud. Because of this, the election for the POTUS is hard to
> steal as opposed to election by popular vote which has but a single point
> of failure.*


First of all voter fraud is NOT a problem in the USA, and second any system
will have to count individual votes and that could still be done in 51
separate places. The idea that the additional layer of clumsy complexity
that is now placed on top of that and increases the voting power some US
citizens, the cow owning type, and decreases the voting power of other US
 citizens, the bookstore owning type, increases the security of the
election is crazy. And I keep hearing about all the hypothetical examples
of how the Electoral College might come in handy someday but can anyone
point to a real world example in the last 200 years of it actually being
helpful? No. Can anyone point to a real world example of the Electoral
College being a disaster? Yes, I only need to point to the Iraq War section
of Arlington Cemetery.


*> Diversity is a hedge against extinction and the Electoral College
> allows all 50 states to be beautiful diverse *


Because of that a few years ago we got George W Bush and the beautiful Iraq
war, and now we have the beautiful Donald Trump and the current nightmare.


*> If he loses, then there might be recounts, lawsuits, and what not but
> come January the new president will be sworn in regardless. *

Yes and then we'll have 2 presidents. I don't know what will happen then
but however its eventually resolved it won't be pretty and I doubt it will
be bloodless.

> >>
>> I don't know if Trump has the ability to make himself President For Life
>> but if he thinks he does there is not a doubt in my mind he will try for
>> it. Trump is not very smart and is known to vastly overestimate his ability
>> so he might fail, but even a failed attempt will be extremely ugly and
>> dangerous.
>
>
> *>if Trump refuses to leave, he just becomes a nut job squatting in the
> White House and will be forcibly removed by the secret service.*


The head of the secret service is Trump's man, he is appointed by the
president and does not need Senate confirmation; and if the president
doesn't like a individual agent for any reason he can remove him from
protection duty and be assigned to other things. Everyone in Trump's
immediate vicinity is a yes man.


>* When the time comes, he will have no choice but to step down. *


Of course he has a choice, he can choose not to step down and if he did
that many millions would support him. Elections were not canceled even
during the Civil War but in a recent poll 52% of Republicans would be OK
with Trump doing it in 2020. If that happens it wouldn't be the fist time a
democracy died, why do you think the USA is immune from the cancer of
totalitarianism?

*> Without the support of the military, he has no chance of staging any
> kind of coup d'etat.*


Yes but by 2020 Trump will have been promoting his own men to be Generals
for 4 years and his cabinet is already full of them.


*> The armed forces of the USA are sworn to be loyal to the Constitution *

Trump also swore to be loyal to the Constitution, but a oath means nothing
to a man like Trump.

John K Clark
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From danust2012 at gmail.com  Thu Aug 16 23:12:58 2018
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2018 16:12:58 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Electoral College
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv3mAyPHVJir8aEj_bCtV5rH=9JMx4ZbzbUW0YMcA6-hWg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d7053975d604aaa0a366531a2e2e1615.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
 <CAJPayv3mAyPHVJir8aEj_bCtV5rH=9JMx4ZbzbUW0YMcA6-hWg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <285C5D05-EB71-4F46-83EE-1737D9C60DE8@gmail.com>

> On Aug 16, 2018, at 1:44 PM, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> On Thu, Aug 16, 2018  Stuart LaForge <avant at sollegro.com> wrote:
> 
>>> >>I don't care who framed it, the Electoral College has proven itself to be a disaster.
>>  
>>  >Not if your goal is to remain 50 sovereign states united in a common wealth
>  
> History calls it "the great compromise of 1797" and without it there would be no agreement on a constitution, but never forget that's what it was, a compromise; it was....

You meant 1787, I trust. (And some historians call it that. History doesn?t say things; people say things. ;)

Regards,

Dan
   Sample my Kindle books at:
http://author.to/DanUst
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From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Aug 17 00:32:19 2018
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2018 17:32:19 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Electoral College
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv3mAyPHVJir8aEj_bCtV5rH=9JMx4ZbzbUW0YMcA6-hWg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d7053975d604aaa0a366531a2e2e1615.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
 <CAJPayv3mAyPHVJir8aEj_bCtV5rH=9JMx4ZbzbUW0YMcA6-hWg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <007201d435c1$c2310620$46931260$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of John Clark



 

>> The armed forces of the USA are sworn to be loyal to the Constitution 

>?Trump also swore to be loyal to the Constitution, but a oath means nothing to a man like Trump?John K Clark

 

 

Sure, but an oath to the constitution means a lot to the people who command the military.  As soon as the next guy is sworn in, they take orders from him.  They will take no orders from a former president pretending to be POTUS for life.  You can be sure, if there was a way to declare oneself president for life, it would have been tried by now.

Regarding the Electoral College, it helps make state governments relevant.  The way our republic is designed, states are to do the heavy lifting in government.  This keeps them competing with each other, and reduces the relevance of what the federal government is doing.  This helps prevent runaway corruption.

This is also particularly relevant in this age of American history, for it is easily foreseeable that the American federal government will soon be in default on many of its obligations.  With Social Security obligations in particular, that day is probably within 20 years.  When that (pretty much inevitable) time comes, state governments will be even more relevant.

The constitution is a marvelous device.

spike

 

 

 

 

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From atymes at gmail.com  Fri Aug 17 01:39:27 2018
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2018 18:39:27 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Electoral College
In-Reply-To: <007201d435c1$c2310620$46931260$@rainier66.com>
References: <d7053975d604aaa0a366531a2e2e1615.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
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Message-ID: <CALAdGNSM3dTS51rgnFwQHVox38BpWjSnUO57gCsmH--MpdUE_g@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Aug 16, 2018 at 5:34 PM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:
> Sure, but an oath to the constitution means a lot to the people who command the military.  As soon as the next guy is sworn in, they take orders from him.  They will take no orders from a former president pretending to be POTUS for life.  You can be sure, if there was a way to declare oneself president for life, it would have been tried by now.

Sure there is.  Just don't let there be a next president.  Suspend the
elections - both popular and any effort by governors to send electors
anyway - that would cause there to be one, at least broadly enough to
create serious doubt about the legitimacy of a replacement.



From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Aug 17 01:53:08 2018
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2018 18:53:08 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Electoral College
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNSM3dTS51rgnFwQHVox38BpWjSnUO57gCsmH--MpdUE_g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d7053975d604aaa0a366531a2e2e1615.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
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Message-ID: <00af01d435cd$0c868fa0$2593aee0$@rainier66.com>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of
Adrian Tymes
Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2018 6:39 PM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: Re: [ExI] Electoral College

On Thu, Aug 16, 2018 at 5:34 PM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:
>>... Sure, but an oath to the constitution means a lot to the people who
command the military.  As soon as the next guy is sworn in, they take orders
from him.  They will take no orders from a former president pretending to be
POTUS for life.  You can be sure, if there was a way to declare oneself
president for life, it would have been tried by now.

>...Sure there is.  Just don't let there be a next president.  Suspend the
elections - both popular and any effort by governors to send electors anyway
- that would cause there to be one, at least broadly enough to create
serious doubt about the legitimacy of a replacement.

_______________________________________________


But presidents cannot stop state elections.  California has demonstrated
that state governments can outrank the Fed, at least in some areas.  So...
president orders elections suspended, elections go right on ahead anyway (I
would vote anyway (and plenty of others would as well)) then the EC is
chosen.  They don't even need to send anything.  In the age of electronic
communications, the EC members can email their votes to the SCOTUS, which
then swears in the next POTUS, who orders the military to get the previous
guy out of the oval office.

The constitution has stood all these years because it was well-designed.

spike



From atymes at gmail.com  Fri Aug 17 05:13:22 2018
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2018 22:13:22 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Electoral College
In-Reply-To: <00af01d435cd$0c868fa0$2593aee0$@rainier66.com>
References: <d7053975d604aaa0a366531a2e2e1615.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
 <CAJPayv3mAyPHVJir8aEj_bCtV5rH=9JMx4ZbzbUW0YMcA6-hWg@mail.gmail.com>
 <007201d435c1$c2310620$46931260$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNSM3dTS51rgnFwQHVox38BpWjSnUO57gCsmH--MpdUE_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <00af01d435cd$0c868fa0$2593aee0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNS3197rXkX9TOHuaPF9WRHLR4Gst4-7Tv4RythoTpytBg@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Aug 16, 2018 at 6:55 PM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:
> But presidents cannot stop state elections.

Sure they can - if they can somehow get enough law enforcement or
military to arrest/shoot up/confiscate/et cetera the people trying to
run elections and/or the equipment being used to run them.

"We have received legitimate terrorist threats against every polling
station.  They're all closed.  Anyone ignoring this order will be
arrested for endangering public safety."

This requires cooperation of those under them, but most of a
president's power requires that anyway.


From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Aug 17 16:15:55 2018
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2018 09:15:55 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Electoral College
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNS3197rXkX9TOHuaPF9WRHLR4Gst4-7Tv4RythoTpytBg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d7053975d604aaa0a366531a2e2e1615.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
 <CAJPayv3mAyPHVJir8aEj_bCtV5rH=9JMx4ZbzbUW0YMcA6-hWg@mail.gmail.com>
 <007201d435c1$c2310620$46931260$@rainier66.com>
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Message-ID: <004c01d43645$93b14a60$bb13df20$@rainier66.com>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of
Adrian Tymes
Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2018 10:13 PM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: Re: [ExI] Electoral College

On Thu, Aug 16, 2018 at 6:55 PM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:


>>... But presidents cannot stop state elections.

>...Sure they can - if they can somehow get enough law enforcement or
military to arrest/shoot up/confiscate/et cetera the people trying to run
elections and/or the equipment being used to run them...

This is a lot of why I have long been opposed to "...the equipment being
used to run them..."  Such equipment should not exist.  Paper ballots,
filled in with ink pens, perfectly adequate robust secure technology for
this purpose, similar to what was used to re-elect George Washington and all
his successors.

>..."We have received legitimate terrorist threats against every polling
station.  They're all closed.  Anyone ignoring this order will be arrested
for endangering public safety."  

Fortunately presidents do not make law and do not make orders of this kind.
Article 9 and Article 10 of the Bill of Rights prevented this from happening
a long time ago.  Presidents can do Executive Orders, but those do not apply
to congress or the SCOTUS, never mind the Electoral College.  

>...This requires cooperation of those under them, but most of a president's
power requires that anyway...

A really controversial president leading a deeply divided country is far
less a threat than one who leads a mostly unified country (such as Franklin
Roosevelt did in 1940.)  He had to be stopped by death.  

I can assure you, if the current POTUS (whose name I cannot recall at the
moment) were to declare martial law to stop an election, that election would
go right on ahead right on schedule.  I already know how it would come out
under those circumstances: his opponent would take every state.

Presidents cannot stop elections.  They would if they could.  The founders
of the COTUS had just fought a war over power-grabby autocrats, and designed
the system to prevent another war over the same thing.  They thought of that
scenario and prevented it.  They were smart.

spike
_______________________________________________



From johnkclark at gmail.com  Fri Aug 17 18:56:01 2018
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2018 14:56:01 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Electoral College
In-Reply-To: <007201d435c1$c2310620$46931260$@rainier66.com>
References: <d7053975d604aaa0a366531a2e2e1615.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
 <CAJPayv3mAyPHVJir8aEj_bCtV5rH=9JMx4ZbzbUW0YMcA6-hWg@mail.gmail.com>
 <007201d435c1$c2310620$46931260$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv3tcmxPVcGWEHwok_xXhGYPJ9FRaavmA0gZN3RkmBAOPQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Aug 16, 2018 at 8:32 PM, <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:


> >
>> >?Trump also swore to be loyal to the Constitution, but a oath means
>> nothing to a man like Trump?John K Clark
>
> *>*
> *Sure, but an oath to the constitution means a lot to the people who
> command the military. *
>
>
That's probably true for the average military person but the average is not
what's important, only a small subset picked by Trump are important. By
2020 all the top military leaders will have been appointed by Donald Trump,
now look at the sort of people Trump already picked for his cabinet and
tell me you are confident the generals of 2020 will be of high moral fibre.

*>*
> *You can be sure, if there was a way to declare oneself president for
> life, it would have been tried by now.*
>
> As I said Trump is unique, we've had some bad people become presadent
before but never anybody as evil or as stupid as Donald, vice-president
Aaron Burr was probably the closest but fortunately he never became
president and although evil unlike Trump Burr was not stupid. Usually its
good that a evil person is stupid but not if you're presadent of the USA
with your finger on the nuclear button. Trump is so stupid he doesn't know
he's stupid so even if he doesn't have the brains to become dictator he
probably thinks he does, and even a unsuccessful attempt will be a
nightmare and the worst internal crises since the Civil War.

I'm nostalgic for the good old days of 2016 when we were young and innocent
and the worst horror we could conceive of was Hillary Clinton's E-mail
server!


> >
> *Regarding the Electoral College, it helps make state governments
> relevant.  The way our republic is designed, states are to do the heavy
> lifting in government. *
>
> That doesn't explain why the burden a California voter must lift is 70
times as heavy as a Wyoming voter; I wouldn't mind if the Wyoming voter was
70 times wiser but that can be proven false by just 2 words, "Iraq" and
"Trump".

*>*
> *This is also particularly relevant in this age of American history, for
> it is easily foreseeable that the American federal government will soon be
> in default on many of its obligations.  With Social Security obligations in
> particular, that day is probably within 20 years.*
>
>
Predictions about what economic conditions will be like in 20 years have
almost always proven to be wrong and today with its fast changes in
technology its even more difficult to make predictions. Nevertheless I will
now make a prediction, the acceleration of the wealth gap between rich
people and poor people in western democracies will NOT continue for another
20 years; I'm not sure what will stop it but one way or another it will
stop, and some of those ways are uglier than others.


> *>*
> *The constitution is a marvelous device.*
>


It wasn't bad for the 18th century but it had flaws in addition to slavery
and the boneheaded Electoral College. It's dumb they didn't let woman vote,
its dumb they redundantly said the people should have religious freedom
when, they had already said they had freedom of speech and assembly
and so got religious freedom automatically, its dumb that all states
regardless of size get 2 Senators and it's dumb that until the 17th
amendment the people couldn't even vote for their Senator. The Tea
Party wants to repeal the 17th amendment as does Trump apologists Ted Cruz
and Mike Huckabee. Rick Perry wants to repeal it too, he's Trump's energy
secretary and replaced Steven Chu, the Nobel Prize winning physicists who
was energy secretary under Obama. Do you see what I meant about the quality
of people Trump picks for his cabinet and for his generals?

John K Clark
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From atymes at gmail.com  Fri Aug 17 19:32:42 2018
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2018 12:32:42 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Electoral College
In-Reply-To: <004c01d43645$93b14a60$bb13df20$@rainier66.com>
References: <d7053975d604aaa0a366531a2e2e1615.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
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On Fri, Aug 17, 2018 at 9:17 AM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:
> This is a lot of why I have long been opposed to "...the equipment being
> used to run them..."  Such equipment should not exist.  Paper ballots,
> filled in with ink pens

...can be burned or shredded.  For all their other flaws, electronic
ballots are at least easier to secure from destruction: just make and
distribute lots of copies, far more widely than the destroyers can
follow up on.

> >..."We have received legitimate terrorist threats against every polling
> station.  They're all closed.  Anyone ignoring this order will be arrested
> for endangering public safety."
>
> Fortunately presidents do not make law and do not make orders of this kind.

Yes they do.  It's called martial law.  The (unverifiable and
evidenceless) claim about terrorism would get it counted as "rebellion
or invasion" for purposes of getting constitutional authority.

> I can assure you, if the current POTUS (whose name I cannot recall at the
> moment) were to declare martial law to stop an election, that election would
> go right on ahead right on schedule.  I already know how it would come out
> under those circumstances: his opponent would take every state.

In California, New England, and other blue areas, sure - if the state
militias could keep away that portion of the national armed forces
that follow orders to put a stop to it.  Too many of the red states
would go right along with it, knowing that not having an election
would make irrelevant the votes of states that had one.

> Presidents cannot stop elections.  They would if they could.

No prior president has wanted to carry on a presidency in the current
fashion.  There have only been a few dozen presidents so far.  Even
Nixon ultimately resigned.


From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Aug 17 19:53:15 2018
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2018 12:53:15 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Electoral College
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNSNn-WNnFyf=KP5CygPAAKnKB9+bGxxckVCTuv-Lsde3w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d7053975d604aaa0a366531a2e2e1615.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
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Message-ID: <016b01d43663$f0362710$d0a27530$@rainier66.com>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of
Adrian Tymes

>
>>... Fortunately presidents do not make law and do not make orders of this
kind.

>...Yes they do.  It's called martial law.  The (unverifiable and
evidenceless) claim about terrorism would get it counted as "rebellion or
invasion" for purposes of getting constitutional authority...

Ja, I am not buying it Adrian.  Enough people in this country would
recognize that for what it is, and defend those ballots with state militias.

Definition of Militia:

U.S. Code ? 246 - Militia: composition and classes

(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at
least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32,
under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention
to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the
United States who are members of the National Guard.
(b) The classes of the militia are?
(1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the
Naval Militia; and
(2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia
who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia.

OK, well I am aged out of the militia, but were I to show up at the polling
place armed and ready to defend against terrorists, I can imagine the
younger guys would be eager to have my assistance, and even if not, I can
help supply shootin arns.  It isn't even clear now if women are excluded,
since they could just declare themselves men (gender is fluid now) and if
they are between 17 and 45, they are in.

>...In California, New England, and other blue areas, sure - if the state
militias could keep away that portion of the national armed forces that
follow orders to put a stop to it...

They would have orders, sure.  But most of the national armed forces would
recognize the order for what it is, and they would be on our side.

>...Too many of the red states would go right along with it, knowing that
not having an election would make irrelevant the votes of states that had
one...

Eh, still not convinced.  California, New York, Florida and Ohio would
easily raise a militia that could stand against whatever the Fed had to
offer.  The standing army of the US is only about 1.3 million, couple
million if you count reserves.  The army wouldn't stand a chance, especially
considering the army is wearing uniforms.  

But they would understand the hopelessness of trying to cancel an election
under martial law, and would be on our side.

>> Presidents cannot stop elections.  They would if they could.

>...No prior president has wanted to carry on a presidency in the current
fashion...

I disagree.  Plenty of previous presidents would hold that office if he felt
he could do it.

>...There have only been a few dozen presidents so far.  Even Nixon
ultimately resigned...

Ja Nixon realized that the constitution is the basis for a president's
authority.  Any president thrashing around and declaring martial law would
soon have his top military people concluding he was using power illegally.
There is a good reason why no one has attempted to become president for
life.

spike



_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat




From johnkclark at gmail.com  Fri Aug 17 20:17:29 2018
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2018 16:17:29 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Electoral College
In-Reply-To: <004c01d43645$93b14a60$bb13df20$@rainier66.com>
References: <d7053975d604aaa0a366531a2e2e1615.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
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Message-ID: <CAJPayv2ppmxvNqwVJfB6OuB7SdnfVr+iyZQ_b6wkaYoHOmOf4Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Aug 17, 2018 at 12:15 PM, <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:

>
>
>
> *Fortunately presidents do not make law and do not make orders of this
> kind. Article 9 and Article 10 of the Bill of Rights prevented this from
> happening*
>

No they do not. Article 9 and 10 are just words on paper, they may say you
can't do something but they have the power to prevent something from
happening only if people think what the constitution says is important, and
we already know that 52% of Republicans think it is not, they'd be fine
with canceling the 2020 election if Trump gave them the word. And Trump
hasn't yet even started his PR offensive by ordering his mindless followers
to start a "fake election" chant at one of his nuremberg style rallies.


 John K Clark
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From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Aug 17 20:45:09 2018
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2018 13:45:09 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Electoral College
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv2ppmxvNqwVJfB6OuB7SdnfVr+iyZQ_b6wkaYoHOmOf4Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d7053975d604aaa0a366531a2e2e1615.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
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Message-ID: <019301d4366b$3091d050$91b570f0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of John Clark
Sent: Friday, August 17, 2018 1:17 PM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: Re: [ExI] Electoral College

 

On Fri, Aug 17, 2018 at 12:15 PM, <spike at rainier66.com <mailto:spike at rainier66.com> > wrote:

 

> 

Fortunately presidents do not make law and do not make orders of this kind.
Article 9 and Article 10 of the Bill of Rights prevented this from happening

 

>?No they do not. Article 9 and 10 are just words on paper?

 

Not to the military.  Articles 9 and 10 are part of the law of the land, which they have sworn to defend.

>? we already know that 52% of Republicans think it is not, they'd be fine with canceling the 2020 election if Trump gave them the word?

 

So 48% of Republicans plus every other party combined can easily outvote (and out not-vote) the 52%.

 

>?And Trump hasn't yet even started his PR offensive by ordering his mindless followers to start a "fake election" chant at one of his nuremberg style rallies.  John K Clark

 

The rally chants would have little or no impact on the Supreme Court.

 

Worry about real things John.  We have real threats.

 

spike

 

 

 

 

 

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From frankmac at ripco.com  Fri Aug 17 22:06:30 2018
From: frankmac at ripco.com (frank mcelligott)
Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2018 15:06:30 -0700
Subject: [ExI] electoral college
Message-ID: <8DEEE21D4E3240069913C5D52C003801@MININTPNDT1SD>

First of all Trump is a grad of  the university of Penn.  You must have a low regard for the ivy League, and talk about it as it was some Community College in Montana.  If he was stupid, it never happens; they the ivy league will never allow it.   He is rich, ok he was lucky.  He has 50% of the American people on his side.   And the military, and the police, and the center of this country.  What the other half has is the coasts east and west.  In California no guns, in new york no guns, in Arizona everybody has a gun. Same trump supports in Indiana, Kentucky, Tennessee,  have guns too. So he says I am not leaving the election was un fair to many Mexicans voted , as well as those people with phony driver licenses,   He then argues that the two states that should not be counted are New York and California. The Military agrees that both states are not part to the USA and should not be counted because of who voted.  That means Citizens should only vote and illegals should not.. So do the police agreed in the other 48 states.

Now what happens,  Tax the living day lights out of California and New york, Make Silicon valley move to Iowa, Place a wall around both states, and let their economy die like a sour grape on a northern California wine vine.

Want to fight about it, what do you have on your side, not a gun just a piece of paper.  The other side has 360 million guns and a natural hatred for both states.  Case closed.

The paper is backed up my  45 colt,  and that 45 colt says your paper does not count,  so don?t wave it in my face instead  stuff it in your mouth. All of this depends on the 2018 elections.

If they (dems) win the house, and try to impeach him,  those 50% who support him will revolt, and if history tells us anything (turkey is latest) First the judges, then the elected officials, then the college professors all jailed, and you have a man who will promise then a free election in 2020 .    

Please read some history,  South America is a great place to start. And for a primer to this talk about constitutions  read about how Putin came to power at the turn of the century.

Frank
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From atymes at gmail.com  Fri Aug 17 23:15:25 2018
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2018 16:15:25 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Electoral College
In-Reply-To: <016b01d43663$f0362710$d0a27530$@rainier66.com>
References: <d7053975d604aaa0a366531a2e2e1615.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
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On Fri, Aug 17, 2018 at 12:55 PM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:
> >...Too many of the red states would go right along with it, knowing that
> not having an election would make irrelevant the votes of states that had
> one...
>
> Eh, still not convinced.  California, New York, Florida and Ohio would
> easily raise a militia that could stand against whatever the Fed had to
> offer.

But what about Kansas, Texas, North Carolina, and other states where
the state government would go along with, "Scrap the election so we
can keep Trump (and ourselves) in office"?  They'd be voting against
there being an election.


From danust2012 at gmail.com  Fri Aug 17 23:49:36 2018
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2018 16:49:36 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Nuclear test in the Indian Ocean
Message-ID: <B6C872F8-0579-4B77-9AC6-38C2BBD21713@gmail.com>

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6056971/Radioactive-sheep-Australia-bolster-claims-illegal-Israeli-nuke-test.html

I know it?s the Daily Mail, but it would explain the Hotel Vela incident.

Regards,

Dan
   Sample my Kindle books at:
http://author.to/DanUst
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Sat Aug 18 14:42:47 2018
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2018 10:42:47 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Electoral College
In-Reply-To: <019301d4366b$3091d050$91b570f0$@rainier66.com>
References: <d7053975d604aaa0a366531a2e2e1615.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
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Message-ID: <CAJPayv2uhG_ecHRFMRsKVjE7kunCmzpqKSZu0-bv2RJMDPaS5w@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Aug 17, 2018 at 4:45 PM, <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:


> Article 9 and 10 are just words on paper?
>
>
>
> *> *
> *Not to the military. *
>
Spike, most in the military have integrity but not all of them do and the
ones that don't are the ones Trump gravitates toward. Take Michael Flynn
for example, by all accounts he was intelligent and a capable general, but
by no stretch of the imagination could he be called a man of honor, and I
don't think general John Kelly will try very hard to prevent Trump from
becoming a dictator if he thinks there is a good chance of him successfully
doing so and he thinks he will still be Trump's right hand man even after
all opposition has been suppressed.

> >
> * Articles 9 and 10 are part of the law of the land, which they have sworn
> to defend.*
>

Most in the military are not lawyers and could not tell you what article 9
and 10 were if you put a gun to their head, to them the law of the land is
whatever their superior officer says it is.


> >? we already know that 52% of Republicans think it is not, they'd be fine
>> with canceling the 2020 election if Trump gave them the word?
>
>
>
> *>*
> *So 48% of Republicans plus every other party combined can easily outvote
> (and out not-vote) the 52%*.[...]
> *Worry about real things John.  We have real threats.*
>

I believe about 40% of voters are republicans and .40 times .52 is .21;  so
if there is a 21% chance the USA will become a dictatorship in 2 years you
think that's nothing to worry about? Would you get on a jetliner if you
thought there was a 21% chance it would crash? And its not just
republicans, about 10% of Bernie Sanders fans ended up voting for Trump
when Sanders got knocked out in the primaries, and its always been clear
that Trump was the second choice for most in the Libertarian party, why
they would like a anti free market anti free press Putin loving fascist
like Trump I don't pretend to understand but I do know that because of them
for the first time in my life I'm now embarrassed to call myself a
libertarian, they've ruined the word.


> >?And Trump hasn't yet even started his PR offensive by ordering his
>> mindless followers to start a "fake election" chant at one of his nuremberg
>> style rallies.  John K Clark
>
>
> >
> *The rally chants would have little or no impact on the Supreme Court.*
>

Andrew Jackson once thundered "The Supreme Court has made its decision now
let them enforce it!" and I think Trump will say much the same because
Trump commands an army and the Supreme Court doesn't. And besides Trump is
packing the Supreme Court with his flunkies, take Brett Kavanaugh for
example. As a young lawyer Kavanaugh worked for 3 years with independent
counsel Ken Starr investigating Bill Clinton (who found nothing more
sinister than a blow job, a crime that seems quaint in these scandal
riddled days) but Kavanaugh has changed his mind about that and has much
more recently said  ?It makes no sense at all to have an independent
counsel looking at the conduct of the president". I believe that statement
is the primary reason Trump picked Kavanaugh for the court.

John K Clark
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From interzone at gmail.com  Sat Aug 18 15:03:00 2018
From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio)
Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2018 11:03:00 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Electoral College
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv2uhG_ecHRFMRsKVjE7kunCmzpqKSZu0-bv2RJMDPaS5w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d7053975d604aaa0a366531a2e2e1615.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
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Message-ID: <CAJrqPH8nxrXBUrp84qXJMxUeMwp0rX=AzeXo6qOTNE6yQQB21g@mail.gmail.com>

The scenario you're envisioning is preposterous, just like the idea that he
is going to start a nuclear war.

I will bet you anything you would care to wager that Trump does not serve
more than two terms unless the Constitution is amended (which will not
happen).

Stuart's post remains the most well articulated talking points on this
topic.

This hysteria is unfounded.

On Sat, Aug 18, 2018, 10:44 AM John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Fri, Aug 17, 2018 at 4:45 PM, <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:
>
>
> > Article 9 and 10 are just words on paper?
>>
>>
>>
>> *> *
>> *Not to the military. *
>>
> Spike, most in the military have integrity but not all of them do and the
> ones that don't are the ones Trump gravitates toward. Take Michael Flynn
> for example, by all accounts he was intelligent and a capable general, but
> by no stretch of the imagination could he be called a man of honor, and I
> don't think general John Kelly will try very hard to prevent Trump from
> becoming a dictator if he thinks there is a good chance of him successfully
> doing so and he thinks he will still be Trump's right hand man even after
> all opposition has been suppressed.
>
>> >
>> * Articles 9 and 10 are part of the law of the land, which they have
>> sworn to defend.*
>>
>
> Most in the military are not lawyers and could not tell you what article 9
> and 10 were if you put a gun to their head, to them the law of the land is
> whatever their superior officer says it is.
>
>
>> >? we already know that 52% of Republicans think it is not, they'd be
>>> fine with canceling the 2020 election if Trump gave them the word?
>>
>>
>>
>> *>*
>> *So 48% of Republicans plus every other party combined can easily outvote
>> (and out not-vote) the 52%*.[...]
>> *Worry about real things John.  We have real threats.*
>>
>
> I believe about 40% of voters are republicans and .40 times .52 is .21;
>  so if there is a 21% chance the USA will become a dictatorship in 2 years
> you think that's nothing to worry about? Would you get on a jetliner if you
> thought there was a 21% chance it would crash? And its not just
> republicans, about 10% of Bernie Sanders fans ended up voting for Trump
> when Sanders got knocked out in the primaries, and its always been clear
> that Trump was the second choice for most in the Libertarian party, why
> they would like a anti free market anti free press Putin loving fascist
> like Trump I don't pretend to understand but I do know that because of them
> for the first time in my life I'm now embarrassed to call myself a
> libertarian, they've ruined the word.
>
>
>> >?And Trump hasn't yet even started his PR offensive by ordering his
>>> mindless followers to start a "fake election" chant at one of his nuremberg
>>> style rallies.  John K Clark
>>
>>
>> >
>> *The rally chants would have little or no impact on the Supreme Court.*
>>
>
> Andrew Jackson once thundered "The Supreme Court has made its decision now
> let them enforce it!" and I think Trump will say much the same because
> Trump commands an army and the Supreme Court doesn't. And besides Trump is
> packing the Supreme Court with his flunkies, take Brett Kavanaugh for
> example. As a young lawyer Kavanaugh worked for 3 years with independent
> counsel Ken Starr investigating Bill Clinton (who found nothing more
> sinister than a blow job, a crime that seems quaint in these scandal
> riddled days) but Kavanaugh has changed his mind about that and has much
> more recently said  ?It makes no sense at all to have an independent
> counsel looking at the conduct of the president". I believe that statement
> is the primary reason Trump picked Kavanaugh for the court.
>
> John K Clark
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Sat Aug 18 15:29:27 2018
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2018 11:29:27 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Electoral College
In-Reply-To: <CAJrqPH8nxrXBUrp84qXJMxUeMwp0rX=AzeXo6qOTNE6yQQB21g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d7053975d604aaa0a366531a2e2e1615.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
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On Sat, Aug 18, 2018 at 11:03 AM, Dylan Distasio <interzone at gmail.com>
wrote:

>
> *The scenario you're envisioning is preposterous, just like the idea that
> he is going to start a nuclear war.*
>

I agree, but sometimes preposterous things happen. Somebody as erratic as
Trump having his finger on the nuclear trigger is utterly preposterous but
nevertheless he does, and when Trump first started his campaign I wasn't
worried because I thought the idea of him actually winning was
preposterous, and yet here we are.


>
> *I will bet you anything you would care to wager that Trump does not serve
> more than two terms unless the Constitution is amended (which will not
> happen).*
>

Your optimism is refreshing and who knows maybe you're right, stranger
things have happened. And I will bet you anything you care to wager that
Trump will NOT start a nuclear war because if he does I won't be around to
write a check and you won't be around to receive it.

John K Clark
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From sen.otaku at gmail.com  Sat Aug 18 23:51:14 2018
From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard)
Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2018 18:51:14 -0500
Subject: [ExI] female heros?
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEZ+CdEZSz6kvxovroAG2isKabFtsrx5oK4cgfZNTqZwqA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaA32eq802e=+BhJ+_i8Mu2ava22RPD7VejAuC=tWQAag@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CABf9QbCrqNHt5ZAqXPNoY=rftJ=Eu9MYmhpP07Y-xogt5vBG_A@mail.gmail.com>

For example Vulvodynia
https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/vulvodynia/symptoms-causes/syc-20353423

There are other, similarly mysterious ailments.

Another one is that there are pills which increase male libido, but similar
pills don't really exist for women.

There's not as must research into menstrual management as you might expect,
but it's been getting a lot better recently.

On Sun, Aug 12, 2018 at 8:49 AM, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Female sexuality & sexual health is more complicated than just orgasms.
> And those are the parts of female sexuality and health that are not well
> explored.
> sr ballard wrote
>
> Yes, of course.  Can you give me some sort of idea what you are talking
> about?  bill w
>
>
> On Sun, Aug 12, 2018 at 3:38 AM, SR Ballard <sen.otaku at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Aug 10, 2018 at 12:14 PM, William Flynn Wallace <
>> foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> I taught a class in Human Sexuality in the 80s and 90s and had no
>>> trouble at all finding research on orgasms of all types.  The first one I
>>> found was John Watson, who got thrown out of Johns Hopkins University
>>> because of his sexual experiments with a female grad student (Rosalie
>>> Raynor of the Watson and Raynor publication) in a basement where they were
>>> hooked up to various recording devices.  I reckon they did not publish that
>>> one.
>>>
>>> I think if you'll look, you'll find gobs of orgasm research.  What
>>> questions do you want answered?  How about Freud's about the difference
>>> between a vaginal and clitoral orgasm?
>>>
>>> bill w
>>>
>>
>> Female sexuality & sexual health is more complicated than just orgasms.
>> And those are the parts of female sexuality and health that are not well
>> explored.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From interzone at gmail.com  Sun Aug 19 02:06:27 2018
From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio)
Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2018 22:06:27 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Electoral College
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv31U4fW7iRsFd=Yze01RBPv0=voz_p-=DbEenjCkuT+jQ@mail.gmail.com>
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Lol.  I actually thought be about the nuclear war wager but came to the
same conclusion you did so I didn't bring it up.

I truly think we're going to be fine, John.   No sane person wants your
scenario to unfold, even most Trump supporters.

If I'm wrong, I will sincerely regret not taking you more seriously in
regard to Trump, but the odds I've calculated are different than yours.
Let's both hope I'm right.

On Sat, Aug 18, 2018, 11:30 AM John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sat, Aug 18, 2018 at 11:03 AM, Dylan Distasio <interzone at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >
>> *The scenario you're envisioning is preposterous, just like the idea that
>> he is going to start a nuclear war.*
>>
>
> I agree, but sometimes preposterous things happen. Somebody as erratic as
> Trump having his finger on the nuclear trigger is utterly preposterous but
> nevertheless he does, and when Trump first started his campaign I wasn't
> worried because I thought the idea of him actually winning was
> preposterous, and yet here we are.
>
>
> >
>> *I will bet you anything you would care to wager that Trump does not
>> serve more than two terms unless the Constitution is amended (which will
>> not happen).*
>>
>
> Your optimism is refreshing and who knows maybe you're right, stranger
> things have happened. And I will bet you anything you care to wager that
> Trump will NOT start a nuclear war because if he does I won't be around to
> write a check and you won't be around to receive it.
>
> John K Clark
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From steinberg.will at gmail.com  Sun Aug 19 02:58:03 2018
From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg)
Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2018 22:58:03 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Electoral College
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv3mAyPHVJir8aEj_bCtV5rH=9JMx4ZbzbUW0YMcA6-hWg@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAKrqSyHbXmyMPS5W8rLqRYkjp8v-q+fsnsinnszh2vKg_6_v9Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Aug 16, 2018, 16:45 John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
Why is Wyoming sovereignty 70 times more important than
> California sovereignty? We both know the answer to that, Wyoming votes
> Trump's way and California does not.
>

Picking this out as completely ridiculous.  That's NOT what anyone here
thinks and it's not the reason anyone here thinks the way they do...maybe
Rafal, if he's still around.

Most of us don't like Trump whatsoever, it just so happens we think you are
wrong and also do far more complaining than you deserve.  If you want to
complain go make a difference.  It should be clear by now that your posts
here are not doing so.
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sun Aug 19 04:49:16 2018
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2018 23:49:16 -0500
Subject: [ExI] female heros?
In-Reply-To: <CABf9QbCrqNHt5ZAqXPNoY=rftJ=Eu9MYmhpP07Y-xogt5vBG_A@mail.gmail.com>
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In colleges and professional schools girls outnumber boys in some of them.
There will be more women getting jobs relative to men, and that means more
money and that means power.  To elect people, to direct taxes to your
liking.  We almost had a woman president and probably will have soon.

Women's time has been very slow getting here but it is still progressing.
Getting to any kind of equality we won't see in our lifetimes.  The only
thing keeping women down in the future will be fascism if it increases here.

Men and their religions have kept women down ab ovo.  Pun intended.  Men
won't give up easily.  You'll have to fight them all the way.  Male ego has
to change but that too will take a long time.  And so forth.

bill w

On Sat, Aug 18, 2018 at 6:51 PM, SR Ballard <sen.otaku at gmail.com> wrote:

> For example Vulvodynia
> https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/vulvodynia/symptoms-causes/
> syc-20353423
>
> There are other, similarly mysterious ailments.
>
> Another one is that there are pills which increase male libido, but
> similar pills don't really exist for women.
>
> There's not as must research into menstrual management as you might
> expect, but it's been getting a lot better recently.
>
> On Sun, Aug 12, 2018 at 8:49 AM, William Flynn Wallace <
> foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Female sexuality & sexual health is more complicated than just orgasms.
>> And those are the parts of female sexuality and health that are not well
>> explored.
>> sr ballard wrote
>>
>> Yes, of course.  Can you give me some sort of idea what you are talking
>> about?  bill w
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Aug 12, 2018 at 3:38 AM, SR Ballard <sen.otaku at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Aug 10, 2018 at 12:14 PM, William Flynn Wallace <
>>> foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I taught a class in Human Sexuality in the 80s and 90s and had no
>>>> trouble at all finding research on orgasms of all types.  The first one I
>>>> found was John Watson, who got thrown out of Johns Hopkins University
>>>> because of his sexual experiments with a female grad student (Rosalie
>>>> Raynor of the Watson and Raynor publication) in a basement where they were
>>>> hooked up to various recording devices.  I reckon they did not publish that
>>>> one.
>>>>
>>>> I think if you'll look, you'll find gobs of orgasm research.  What
>>>> questions do you want answered?  How about Freud's about the difference
>>>> between a vaginal and clitoral orgasm?
>>>>
>>>> bill w
>>>>
>>>
>>> Female sexuality & sexual health is more complicated than just orgasms.
>>> And those are the parts of female sexuality and health that are not well
>>> explored.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Sun Aug 19 12:53:49 2018
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2018 08:53:49 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Electoral College
In-Reply-To: <CAKrqSyHbXmyMPS5W8rLqRYkjp8v-q+fsnsinnszh2vKg_6_v9Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d7053975d604aaa0a366531a2e2e1615.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
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On Sat, Aug 18, 2018 at 10:58 PM, Will Steinberg <steinberg.will at gmail.com>
wrote:

>
> *Most of us don't like Trump whatsoever,*
>
Most on this list, nearly all in fact, liked Trump more than Clinton in
2016 and still do. That is a fact and maybe a Jupiter Brain knows enough
psychology to understand why but I don't think I will understand it even on
the day they dump me into a vat of liquid nitrogen.

> >
>  *it just so happens we think you are wrong *


That much I do know!

>
> and also do far more complaining than you deserve.


How much complaining do I deserve? And if you don't like Trump why do you
get so upset when I dare to say less than flattering things about him?

>
>  *go make a difference*



And you believe the first step in me making a difference is to stop being
sacrilegious about Trump and keep my mouth shut.


John K Clark
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From steinberg.will at gmail.com  Sun Aug 19 15:37:27 2018
From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg)
Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2018 11:37:27 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Electoral College
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv3m6WwR+5cmCab2eaXSV9iT6Y9KtuLZ0a3E7pb6wj7unA@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAKrqSyEkmywrj7YwuC_R2sagXAjEBZyxHLPCtd0d51RhygEu=A@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Aug 19, 2018, 08:55 John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
And if you don't like Trump why do you get so upset when I dare to say less
> than flattering things about him?
>

John, with all due respect (thankfully, your actions here make little due)
please shut up.  Don't tell me what I think, you imbecile.  I happen to
think Trump is a dangerous fascist idiot; as a Jew, I'd better, lest we
repeat history.

My dislike of Trump has NO bearing on how much of a cad I think you are,
which is a very great one.  It's about time you got it through your
so-thick-we-must-have-discovered-a-new-Homo-lineage skull that disagreeing
with you does NOT mean we agree with everything you ascribe to your two
dimensional straw man of 'the enemy.'

Have some respect and try and learn an iota from others.  I am surprised
you have not been banned; that is one of the downfalls of our
libertarian-esque guidelines here on this list. (Spike, you dog! :P)

You have to reel it in man.  It is to the point of caricature.

I happen to think my methods against fascism are more effective than
yours.  We all think our thoughts are best, it's called a value judgment.
What is ABSURD is how old you are yet how you seem to have never learned to
understand that just because you make a value judgment doesn't mean it's
correct.  Your self awareness is on the level of many millennials I
know--both right and left wing--which is to say, it is lacking.

>
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Sun Aug 19 22:07:15 2018
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2018 18:07:15 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Electoral College
In-Reply-To: <CAKrqSyEkmywrj7YwuC_R2sagXAjEBZyxHLPCtd0d51RhygEu=A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d7053975d604aaa0a366531a2e2e1615.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
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On Sun, Aug 19, 2018 at 11:37 AM, Will Steinberg <steinberg.will at gmail.com>
wrote:

>
> John, with all due respect (thankfully, your actions here make little due)
> please shut up.
>

No, as long as I'm a member of this list I don't believe I will
shut up.


*>Have some respect and try and learn an iota from others.  I am surprised
> you have not been banned; that is one of the downfalls of our
> libertarian-esque guidelines here on this list. * (Spike, you dog! :P)



Libertarian? Ah yes I remember that 25 years ago or so when I first got on
this list it was very libertarian, back then we were for free trade and a
balanced budget thought objective facts existed and believed that except
for direct experience the scientific method outranked everything else, even
outranked libertarian ideology.  Unlike today none of us were the least
bit squeamish about criticizing the man who was then president, I did a lot
of Clinton bashing myself but looking back on it all my complaints seen
pretty trivial compared with the creature who occupies the oval office now.
But this list has changed radically in the last quarter century and not
always in a good way. I still believe in private property however so if the
owners of this list kick me off I'll make no trouble and go quietly.

>
> *I happen to think my methods against fascism are more effective than
> yours. *
>

Apparently your method of fighting fascism is to criticize and try to
muzzle and ban people who criticize fascists. How is that working out for
you?

*>You have to reel it in man.  It is to the point of caricature.*


If I have made a factual error in any of my posts you would do me a great
service by pointing them out so that I may correct my miscomprehension.
That reminds me, thanks to Dan for pointing out that the great compromise
happened in 1787 not 1797 as I said.

 John K Clark
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From steinberg.will at gmail.com  Sun Aug 19 23:36:12 2018
From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg)
Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2018 19:36:12 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Electoral College
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv1TH-K=Hxf21m3FZ6NufWviGAJ5Px=yb8B_e478ddJK-Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d7053975d604aaa0a366531a2e2e1615.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
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Not a factual error, a social error.

I am actually curious why you keep saying the same stuff.  If you really
wanted to change minds, you'd think you would try a different approach.
People here don't seem receptive to your methods.

Why not try something different?  They only reasons I can think of are

a) You enjoy the simple act of giving your opinion and criticizing others.
We all do, but there's a socially appropriate point to stop.  It is not
comfortable to be in threads about scientific innovation and have to hear
about Trump.

b) You can't think of anything else.

Neither of which I consider sufficient rationales for prattling.  Of
course, this is my own value judgment.

It just bothers me that when I come to check a thread on science or
technology here, I can expect to see some kind of political bloviation just
as much as I can expect your annual anti-curiosity psionics post*.

Here are a few comforting words from one of many spiritual texts that
contain nuggets of truth (which must be separated from the shit nuggets):

"Vapid mirage, Koheleth said. Vapid mirage. All is mirage."

What benefits a man from all his labor that he labors under the sun?"

A generation goes and a generation comes, and the Earth forever stands."
*For which I believe you would always  the goalposts forwards.  Basically
you say "there will never be a paper confirming the existence of magic
published in Nature" even though of course any confirmed discovery would
immediately leave the realm of magic.  Even a hundred years ago you would
be laughed out of the room for suggesting most of what modern physics
believes.  This will continue to happen.

If you have solved the hard problem of consciousness and can tell me what
the standard model has to do with qualia, I'm all ears!
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From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Aug 20 00:20:49 2018
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2018 17:20:49 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Electoral College
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNQ500DJNuE9woWOcm1L6RDakHKdsmc9mQ5-8BnKJYhVQg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d7053975d604aaa0a366531a2e2e1615.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
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-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of
Adrian Tymes
Subject: Re: [ExI] Electoral College

On Fri, Aug 17, 2018 at 12:55 PM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:
> >>...Too many of the red states would go right along with it, knowing 
> >>that not having an election would make irrelevant the votes of states
that  had one...
>
>>... Eh, still not convinced.  California, New York, Florida and Ohio would

> easily raise a militia that could stand against whatever the Fed had 
> to offer.

>...But what about Kansas, Texas, North Carolina, and other states where the
state government would go along with, "Scrap the election so we can keep
Trump (and ourselves) in office"?  They'd be voting against there being an
election.

Eh, Texas wouldn't go along with it.  They would be eager to defend their
polling places against terrorist threats.  If there are a few hardcore red
states who really love the current POTUS (whose name I cannot recall) they
love the COTUS even more.

A lot of us wasted worry that the previous POTUS would attempt something
like this scenario, but after we really pondered it, we realized we need to
worry about real threats (which are legion) rather than imaginary ones.

spike



From avant at sollegro.com  Mon Aug 20 00:40:24 2018
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2018 17:40:24 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Endarkenment was Electoral College
Message-ID: <1c14116d9e64c33a6175a7fe722060b0.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>

John Clark wrote:

>> ?And Trump hasn't yet even started his PR offensive by ordering his
>> mindless followers to start a "fake election" chant at one of his
>> nuremberg style rallies.  John K Clark

Actually, there are some very smart but misguided people at those rallies;
even racist transhumanists. The Alt Right is a bit more sophisticated a
crowd than you seem to think it is.

https://www.vox.com/2016/4/18/11434098/alt-right-explained

If anything, the Alt Right are the true danger. They are the wind and
Donald Trump is but a leaf upon it. Some of them, most notably the
Neoreactionaries (NRx) are a direct threat to the republic.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/02/behind-the-internets-dark-anti-democracy-movement/516243/

The TL;DR is that there is a movement that believe the Enlightenment was a
mistake and that democracy, egalitarianism, and personal liberties are
wrong. Basically these people want fascism or even monarchy with white
people in charge.


Spike wrote:

> The rally chants would have little or no impact on the Supreme Court.
>
> Worry about real things John.  We have real threats.

Actually John is not being entirely paranoid here, Spike. Rally chants
might have little effect on the SCOTUS but there are only nine justices on
it.

Alt Right extremists who attend those rallies might get it into their head
to pay visits to those justices when they are on vacation. Perhaps a few
more Scalia-style accidents so they can't swear in the new President.

Fortunately, the Constitution does not require the SCOTUS to be involved
in the swearing in. (Calvin Coolidge was sworn in by his own father who
was a notary public.) But nonetheless the loss of SCOTUS judges just
before the inauguration of the new president might disrupt the transition
of power.

The reason I bring this up is that while they are thoroughly guarded by
the U.S. Federal Marshals during the time that the SCOTUS is in session, I
do not believe they are guarded 24-7 like presidents are. If they were,
Scalia's death would not have been so controversial.

With the republic under attack by the Putin and NRx, I think we need to
remedy this post-haste. The SCOTUS judges are too vulnerable in their
personal time and too important to the republic to lose.

There are only nine of them so round the clock protection would not be
that expensive as far as those things go.

Frank McElligott wrote:

> If they (dems) win the house, and try to impeach him,  those 50% who
> support him will revolt, and if history tells us anything (turkey is
> latest) First the judges, then the elected officials, then the college
> professors all jailed, and you have a man who will promise then a free
> election in 2020 .

I agree, the SCOTUS judges are vulnerable, even w/o Trump's knowledge or
permission.

> Please read some history,  South America is a great place to start. And
> for a primer to this talk about constitutions  read about how Putin came
> to power at the turn of the century.

Lately Putin has been pushing the boundary between world leader and James
Bond villain. His money and influence can be traced to far-right takeovers
in governments all over the world. Brexit in the U.K., Trump in the USA,
and now this in Austria.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/austrias-far-right-government-ordered-a-raid-on-its-own-intelligence-service-now-allies-are-freezing-the-country-out/2018/08/17/d20090fc-9985-11e8-b55e-5002300ef004_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.666662db0341


Putin has picked up the cold war where he left it off all those years ago
playing the covert intelligence game, influencing elections, social
engineering, computer hacking etc. He is funding xenophobic racists in
various countries to destabilize them from within. That is classic
divide-and-conquer strategy. Sun Tzu would have been impressed.


Stuart LaForge




From sen.otaku at gmail.com  Mon Aug 20 01:04:56 2018
From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard)
Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2018 20:04:56 -0500
Subject: [ExI] female heros?
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEZ7wX-bmmLUwpv_4jD9B_y43DoRR+koN-YmktKSE22brw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaA32eq802e=+BhJ+_i8Mu2ava22RPD7VejAuC=tWQAag@mail.gmail.com>
 <005701d42df7$6a56c330$3f044990$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEZKmkEqmv3iuUOb5G9F_Qr1FSV1zk52CUn05NYDqgPnCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <00ef01d42e68$7ac82300$70586900$@rainier66.com>
 <0DE5F0EE-A479-488D-B1CD-C71EA4A7670F@gmail.com>
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 <CAO+xQEbNSqPWDj1a6E7fhA8-rwE6fFbToXWh28DPMhVowM8cBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <009701d42f34$65c57030$31505090$@rainier66.com>
 <CABf9QbCcu8Jd95FB+LkiEVQK+o2mVQDnXoDR=gT+gL5UShB_jg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEaFVwp4fOMn=izRNqOC4_Aj4URra=7KF+Nnuc_rY_=hRQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNTcPo+ET8mrr2uneGgRKwJ8+t+r2fyPq=B9G_eUtnrmjw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABf9QbAeJjhZ+AoG11V6davj-kZWfHUH5Q8nSD9J8EXwBKw-YQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRoJFVqhFbarUcms=d1OOPpuVgtzKn35VCHn-BdAcdBBw@mail.gmail.com>
 <00df01d43062$f56c22e0$e04468a0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAKrqSyEi+qv2OU9GpZ59VhCz1Pk4htnJhRX+vLU2UZ6g8-+Ofg@mail.gmail.com>
 <000801d43067$30262d00$90728700$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEYPuLLAa-xdD5wjFoqimncpi5wNLchcr762tQSTvPRJtA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABf9QbANhAvW7Kq-wnvirE0YZdc2SEC1Szx40rhVpDxjG9STXw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZ+CdEZSz6kvxovroAG2isKabFtsrx5oK4cgfZNTqZwqA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABf9QbCrqNHt5ZAqXPNoY=rftJ=Eu9MYmhpP07Y-xogt5vBG_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZ7wX-bmmLUwpv_4jD9B_y43DoRR+koN-YmktKSE22brw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABf9QbDrMqYSSXrZjq9U8HVAw0-Eb2-1-yoTyfa5yShWFoPQbQ@mail.gmail.com>

And despite outnumbering men in many institutions of post-secondary
education they continue to choose lower paying majors, careers, and
specialties.

For example, women are more likely to become nurses and men are more likely
to become doctors. When women become either nurses or doctors, they choose
lower paying specialties than men.

Anecdote (for it's super low worth) -- I loved math all through school, and
tutored college students while in middle and high school. Men would
basically never comment on it at all. Women would always come up with a
remark like, "Oh, math is so hard, I could never be good at that." I never,
ever heard this from men, even when they were objectively shit at math.
Same thing when I lifted weights competitively in High School. Men didn't
say anything, but women sure had a lot to say about it, usually negative.


I'm not sure how much is actually men keeping women down and women keeping
each other down, at least in my age group.



On Sat, Aug 18, 2018 at 11:49 PM, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com
> wrote:

> In colleges and professional schools girls outnumber boys in some of
> them.  There will be more women getting jobs relative to men, and that
> means more money and that means power.  To elect people, to direct taxes to
> your liking.  We almost had a woman president and probably will have soon.
>
> Women's time has been very slow getting here but it is still progressing.
> Getting to any kind of equality we won't see in our lifetimes.  The only
> thing keeping women down in the future will be fascism if it increases here.
>
> Men and their religions have kept women down ab ovo.  Pun intended.  Men
> won't give up easily.  You'll have to fight them all the way.  Male ego has
> to change but that too will take a long time.  And so forth.
>
> bill w
>
> On Sat, Aug 18, 2018 at 6:51 PM, SR Ballard <sen.otaku at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> For example Vulvodynia
>> https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/vulvodynia/
>> symptoms-causes/syc-20353423
>>
>> There are other, similarly mysterious ailments.
>>
>> Another one is that there are pills which increase male libido, but
>> similar pills don't really exist for women.
>>
>> There's not as must research into menstrual management as you might
>> expect, but it's been getting a lot better recently.
>>
>> On Sun, Aug 12, 2018 at 8:49 AM, William Flynn Wallace <
>> foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Female sexuality & sexual health is more complicated than just orgasms.
>>> And those are the parts of female sexuality and health that are not well
>>> explored.
>>> sr ballard wrote
>>>
>>> Yes, of course.  Can you give me some sort of idea what you are talking
>>> about?  bill w
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Aug 12, 2018 at 3:38 AM, SR Ballard <sen.otaku at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Aug 10, 2018 at 12:14 PM, William Flynn Wallace <
>>>> foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I taught a class in Human Sexuality in the 80s and 90s and had no
>>>>> trouble at all finding research on orgasms of all types.  The first one I
>>>>> found was John Watson, who got thrown out of Johns Hopkins University
>>>>> because of his sexual experiments with a female grad student (Rosalie
>>>>> Raynor of the Watson and Raynor publication) in a basement where they were
>>>>> hooked up to various recording devices.  I reckon they did not publish that
>>>>> one.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think if you'll look, you'll find gobs of orgasm research.  What
>>>>> questions do you want answered?  How about Freud's about the difference
>>>>> between a vaginal and clitoral orgasm?
>>>>>
>>>>> bill w
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Female sexuality & sexual health is more complicated than just
>>>> orgasms.  And those are the parts of female sexuality and health that are
>>>> not well explored.
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Aug 20 01:06:13 2018
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2018 18:06:13 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Electoral College
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv2uhG_ecHRFMRsKVjE7kunCmzpqKSZu0-bv2RJMDPaS5w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d7053975d604aaa0a366531a2e2e1615.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
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 <007201d435c1$c2310620$46931260$@rainier66.com>
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Message-ID: <022301d43821$fde86890$f9b939b0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of John Clark
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2018 7:43 AM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: Re: [ExI] Electoral College

 

On Fri, Aug 17, 2018 at 4:45 PM, <spike at rainier66.com <mailto:spike at rainier66.com> > wrote:

 

>>> Article 9 and 10 are just words on paper? 

 

>> ?Not to the military. 

>> ?Articles 9 and 10 are part of the law of the land, which they have sworn to defend.

 

>?Most in the military are not lawyers and could not tell you what article 9 and 10 were if you put a gun to their head, to them the law of the land is whatever their superior officer says it is?

 

John I do think this comment seriously underestimates the military.  Those guys are not mindless killer-bots.  I know and worked with a bunch of military ossifers in my career.  I know of none of them who I think would go along with a coup against the constitution.  I know plenty of them would I think would be willing to refuse an illegal order, which is what it would be if framed as a sudden declaration of martial law used to cancel or postpone (even for an hour) an election.

 

 

>?Andrew Jackson once thundered "The Supreme Court has made its decision now let them enforce it!" 

 

Good, so you already know that Andrew Jackson was an example of a POTUS who would have grabbed power if he could have.

 

>?and I think Trump will say much the same because Trump commands an army and the Supreme Court doesn't? John K Clark

 

I am betting with the Supreme Court on this one.

 

That being said, there are risks.  The scenario I have long worried over is that we have verifiable widespread cheating by (for instance) voting machines are hacked.  Then a POTUS attempts to deny the EC votes of the states where widespread cheating was found.  That could lead to a constitutional crisis.  The worst part is that we did it to ourselves.

 

spike

 

 

 

 

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From sen.otaku at gmail.com  Mon Aug 20 01:08:07 2018
From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard)
Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2018 20:08:07 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Endarkenment was Electoral College
In-Reply-To: <1c14116d9e64c33a6175a7fe722060b0.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
References: <1c14116d9e64c33a6175a7fe722060b0.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
Message-ID: <CABf9QbA+tX+NsAPjz2kuap1gz-Hkmuzd2QLinqHS_Jn3ZMdE1w@mail.gmail.com>

> racist transhumanists

... I guess I was being naive in thinking that a group of people who
believe in uploading wouldn't harbor staunchly racist attitudes. How could
you possibly tell who is what race after everyone is uploaded, or can
modify their own genes, skin tone, bone structure, etc?

On Sun, Aug 19, 2018 at 7:40 PM, Stuart LaForge <avant at sollegro.com> wrote:

> John Clark wrote:
>
> >> ?And Trump hasn't yet even started his PR offensive by ordering his
> >> mindless followers to start a "fake election" chant at one of his
> >> nuremberg style rallies.  John K Clark
>
> Actually, there are some very smart but misguided people at those rallies;
> even racist transhumanists. The Alt Right is a bit more sophisticated a
> crowd than you seem to think it is.
>
> https://www.vox.com/2016/4/18/11434098/alt-right-explained
>
> If anything, the Alt Right are the true danger. They are the wind and
> Donald Trump is but a leaf upon it. Some of them, most notably the
> Neoreactionaries (NRx) are a direct threat to the republic.
>
> https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/02/
> behind-the-internets-dark-anti-democracy-movement/516243/
>
> The TL;DR is that there is a movement that believe the Enlightenment was a
> mistake and that democracy, egalitarianism, and personal liberties are
> wrong. Basically these people want fascism or even monarchy with white
> people in charge.
>
>
> Spike wrote:
>
> > The rally chants would have little or no impact on the Supreme Court.
> >
> > Worry about real things John.  We have real threats.
>
> Actually John is not being entirely paranoid here, Spike. Rally chants
> might have little effect on the SCOTUS but there are only nine justices on
> it.
>
> Alt Right extremists who attend those rallies might get it into their head
> to pay visits to those justices when they are on vacation. Perhaps a few
> more Scalia-style accidents so they can't swear in the new President.
>
> Fortunately, the Constitution does not require the SCOTUS to be involved
> in the swearing in. (Calvin Coolidge was sworn in by his own father who
> was a notary public.) But nonetheless the loss of SCOTUS judges just
> before the inauguration of the new president might disrupt the transition
> of power.
>
> The reason I bring this up is that while they are thoroughly guarded by
> the U.S. Federal Marshals during the time that the SCOTUS is in session, I
> do not believe they are guarded 24-7 like presidents are. If they were,
> Scalia's death would not have been so controversial.
>
> With the republic under attack by the Putin and NRx, I think we need to
> remedy this post-haste. The SCOTUS judges are too vulnerable in their
> personal time and too important to the republic to lose.
>
> There are only nine of them so round the clock protection would not be
> that expensive as far as those things go.
>
> Frank McElligott wrote:
>
> > If they (dems) win the house, and try to impeach him,  those 50% who
> > support him will revolt, and if history tells us anything (turkey is
> > latest) First the judges, then the elected officials, then the college
> > professors all jailed, and you have a man who will promise then a free
> > election in 2020 .
>
> I agree, the SCOTUS judges are vulnerable, even w/o Trump's knowledge or
> permission.
>
> > Please read some history,  South America is a great place to start. And
> > for a primer to this talk about constitutions  read about how Putin came
> > to power at the turn of the century.
>
> Lately Putin has been pushing the boundary between world leader and James
> Bond villain. His money and influence can be traced to far-right takeovers
> in governments all over the world. Brexit in the U.K., Trump in the USA,
> and now this in Austria.
>
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/
> austrias-far-right-government-ordered-a-raid-on-its-own-
> intelligence-service-now-allies-are-freezing-the-country-out/2018/08/17/
> d20090fc-9985-11e8-b55e-5002300ef004_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.
> 666662db0341
>
>
> Putin has picked up the cold war where he left it off all those years ago
> playing the covert intelligence game, influencing elections, social
> engineering, computer hacking etc. He is funding xenophobic racists in
> various countries to destabilize them from within. That is classic
> divide-and-conquer strategy. Sun Tzu would have been impressed.
>
>
> Stuart LaForge
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From steinberg.will at gmail.com  Mon Aug 20 02:02:06 2018
From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg)
Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2018 22:02:06 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Endarkenment was Electoral College
In-Reply-To: <CABf9QbA+tX+NsAPjz2kuap1gz-Hkmuzd2QLinqHS_Jn3ZMdE1w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1c14116d9e64c33a6175a7fe722060b0.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
 <CABf9QbA+tX+NsAPjz2kuap1gz-Hkmuzd2QLinqHS_Jn3ZMdE1w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKrqSyHn9TvR+kSu7HccAo=avNaFUMFPe=-WeZQ=AxW1mb0yiA@mail.gmail.com>

We are headed for a reckoning for sure.

Is is the effect of our emotions being outpaced by technology, especially
electronics of course.  New thoughtforms have evolved in our hyperconnected
world that may not have the same motives as humans.  John C Lilly said some
stuff about this. (SSI, I think?)

Putin is the Judas of this technological age.  He certainly appears to be
heavily oriented towards sociotechnological warfare and has even spoken
about AI being a gateway to world domination.

In any case, I don't really believe single humans are in control anymore.
Things are far too complicated.

Relevant: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indra%27s_net

Indra, god of thunder;
Indra's net, net of electricity;
Indra's net, Indranet, Internet.

Maybe we should start praying ;)
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From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Aug 20 02:38:16 2018
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2018 19:38:16 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Electoral College
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv3m6WwR+5cmCab2eaXSV9iT6Y9KtuLZ0a3E7pb6wj7unA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d7053975d604aaa0a366531a2e2e1615.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
 <CAJPayv3mAyPHVJir8aEj_bCtV5rH=9JMx4ZbzbUW0YMcA6-hWg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyHbXmyMPS5W8rLqRYkjp8v-q+fsnsinnszh2vKg_6_v9Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv3m6WwR+5cmCab2eaXSV9iT6Y9KtuLZ0a3E7pb6wj7unA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <005c01d4382e$d97ee490$8c7cadb0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of John Clark
Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2018 5:54 AM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: Re: [ExI] Electoral College

 

On Sat, Aug 18, 2018 at 10:58 PM, Will Steinberg <steinberg.will at gmail.com <mailto:steinberg.will at gmail.com> > wrote:

 

> Most of us don't like Trump whatsoever,

Most on this list, nearly all in fact, liked Trump more than Clinton in 2016 and still do?

Those two statements are compatible and likely true.

>? if you don't like Trump why do you get so upset when I dare to say less than flattering things about him? John K Clark

 

Because it doesn?t belong here John.  We know the story.  We are living it.  There are pleeeeenty of US political forums with people who follow that kind of thing a lot more closely and intensely than we do, and have far less outside that to talk about.  This forum is about technology, the future, transhumanism, etc, all the things we have in common.  We don?t discuss politics on my math forums or motorcycle forums.  So why here?

 

spike

 

 

 

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From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Aug 20 02:46:56 2018
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2018 19:46:56 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Electoral College
In-Reply-To: <CAKrqSyEkmywrj7YwuC_R2sagXAjEBZyxHLPCtd0d51RhygEu=A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d7053975d604aaa0a366531a2e2e1615.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
 <CAJPayv3mAyPHVJir8aEj_bCtV5rH=9JMx4ZbzbUW0YMcA6-hWg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyHbXmyMPS5W8rLqRYkjp8v-q+fsnsinnszh2vKg_6_v9Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv3m6WwR+5cmCab2eaXSV9iT6Y9KtuLZ0a3E7pb6wj7unA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyEkmywrj7YwuC_R2sagXAjEBZyxHLPCtd0d51RhygEu=A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <006b01d43830$0f8001e0$2e8005a0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Will Steinberg



 

 

>?Have some respect and try and learn an iota from others.  I am surprised you have not been banned; that is one of the downfalls of our libertarian-esque guidelines here on this list?

 

I have gotten plenty of requests to ban all political posts (as my math lists specifically do) but ExI has deep roots in libertarianism.  We have long had the tradition of letting everyone have their say.  I propose we continue in that spirit of the founders.

 

>? (Spike, you dog! :P)

 

Hey I resemble that!  Fortunately I like dogs.  Sheesh how can anyone not love ?em?  They are such fun beasts, such good sports, and how they love us.  It isn?t always clear why exactly, but they do.  Why is it there seems to be exactly one non-human species that just really loves to be with people?  Cats only half-count: they will tolerate humans as long as we supply the kibble in quantity upon demand, but they don?t really love us.  Dogs: goodness, look at how they got nuts when we have been away for a while and come home.  I have seen dogs get so excited when the old man gets home they wet themselves.

 

We humans need to be more like that.

 

spike

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From atymes at gmail.com  Mon Aug 20 04:47:45 2018
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2018 21:47:45 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Electoral College
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv3m6WwR+5cmCab2eaXSV9iT6Y9KtuLZ0a3E7pb6wj7unA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d7053975d604aaa0a366531a2e2e1615.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
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Message-ID: <CALAdGNRZiDK3Sad6VrcbXhcN1go5c5jqPSd+H_XE7XqcscjkTg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Aug 19, 2018 at 5:55 AM John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, Aug 18, 2018 at 10:58 PM, Will Steinberg <steinberg.will at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Most of us don't like Trump whatsoever,
>
> Most on this list, nearly all in fact, liked Trump more than Clinton in 2016 and still do. That is a fact

>From what I observed, that is not a fact.  That is, in fact, false.

It is the case that most on this list were not as worried as Trump as
you were.  Some even favored Trump - but not most, so far as I saw.


From atymes at gmail.com  Mon Aug 20 04:53:40 2018
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2018 21:53:40 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Endarkenment was Electoral College
In-Reply-To: <CABf9QbA+tX+NsAPjz2kuap1gz-Hkmuzd2QLinqHS_Jn3ZMdE1w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1c14116d9e64c33a6175a7fe722060b0.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
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Message-ID: <CALAdGNRBN=q+A6FAhrep8HNjDyjD+rYK0+Vbknqzja64Ocmqqw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Aug 19, 2018 at 6:24 PM SR Ballard <sen.otaku at gmail.com> wrote:
> > racist transhumanists
>
> ... I guess I was being naive in thinking that a group of people who believe in uploading wouldn't harbor staunchly racist attitudes. How could you possibly tell who is what race after everyone is uploaded, or can modify their own genes, skin tone, bone structure, etc?

So far as I can tell, they believe that race dictates mental capacity
and architecture, and specifically that anyone not of their genetic
descent has an obviously inferior mind that does not deserve to be
uploaded.

You and I know that's hogwash.  But that seems to be what they honestly believe.



From pharos at gmail.com  Mon Aug 20 07:43:48 2018
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2018 08:43:48 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Endarkenment was Electoral College
In-Reply-To: <1c14116d9e64c33a6175a7fe722060b0.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
References: <1c14116d9e64c33a6175a7fe722060b0.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armifH4XP4BS+TFtNTX_Lj9Xa9Q3vDcaMm2HR=-f7Xg3_xw@mail.gmail.com>

On 20 August 2018 at 01:40, Stuart LaForge  wrote:
<big snip>
>
> Putin has picked up the cold war where he left it off all those years ago
> playing the covert intelligence game, influencing elections, social
> engineering, computer hacking etc. He is funding xenophobic racists in
> various countries to destabilize them from within. That is classic
> divide-and-conquer strategy. Sun Tzu would have been impressed.
>
>

Don't blame Putin for all this mess! That's misdirection, saying -
Look over there!
It wasn't Putin that buried most of the US in a mountain of debt and
lost dreams, and concentrated unbelievable wealth in about 0.1% of the
population.
Putin is an opportunist (like most politicians) and will try to take
advantage of the coming unravelling.

BillK


From danust2012 at gmail.com  Mon Aug 20 08:20:20 2018
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2018 01:20:20 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Endarkenment was Electoral College
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armifH4XP4BS+TFtNTX_Lj9Xa9Q3vDcaMm2HR=-f7Xg3_xw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1c14116d9e64c33a6175a7fe722060b0.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
 <CAL_armifH4XP4BS+TFtNTX_Lj9Xa9Q3vDcaMm2HR=-f7Xg3_xw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <48AB622E-E73B-47D6-B584-AFB19D1108EE@gmail.com>

On Aug 20, 2018, at 12:43 AM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> On 20 August 2018 at 01:40, Stuart LaForge  wrote:
>> <big snip>
>> 
>> Putin has picked up the cold war where he left it off all those years ago
>> playing the covert intelligence game, influencing elections, social
>> engineering, computer hacking etc. He is funding xenophobic racists in
>> various countries to destabilize them from within. That is classic
>> divide-and-conquer strategy. Sun Tzu would have been impressed.
> 
> Don't blame Putin for all this mess! That's misdirection, saying -
> Look over there!
> It wasn't Putin that buried most of the US in a mountain of debt and
> lost dreams, and concentrated unbelievable wealth in about 0.1% of the
> population.
> Putin is an opportunist (like most politicians) and will try to take
> advantage of the coming unravelling.

Doesn?t fit the morality play narrative inside American politics.

Regards,

Dan
   Sample my Kindle books at:
http://author.to/DanUst


From avant at sollegro.com  Mon Aug 20 08:45:23 2018
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2018 01:45:23 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Endarkenment
Message-ID: <fca54783c9963cae2810605836a6dc1f.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>

Will Steinberg wrote:

> We are headed for a reckoning for sure.

> Putin is the Judas of this technological age.? He certainly appears to be
> heavily oriented towards sociotechnological warfare and has even spoken
> about AI being a gateway to world domination.

If that is the case, then we can't afford to let Russia develop AI first,
like we couldn't let Germany develop nukes first . . . for pretty much the
same reason.

>?? In any case, I don't
> really believe single humans are in control anymore.? Things are far too
> complicated.

Evolution did not equip alpha males and females to lead more than between
150 to 300 people. Which is about the same as the number of names the
average person can remember. That is your tribal heritage even if you
happen to be an Ice Age mutant with fair skin, hair, and eyes.

The likes of presidents, kings, and emperors do not actually lead their
states. They simply mount the beast of popular opinion and hold on for
dear life.

I hope robust AI can eventually do a better job of guiding us into the
unknown future. Until then, I believe our best bet for survival is the
constitutional republic.

> Relevant:?https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indra%27s_net
> Indra, god of thunder;Indra's net, net of electricity;Indra's net,
> Indranet, Internet.
> Maybe we should start praying
> ;)

If you had ever beheld one of the jewels of Indra's net, then you would
realize that you just did. ;-)

Stuart LaForge






From foozler83 at gmail.com  Mon Aug 20 14:26:36 2018
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2018 09:26:36 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Electoral College
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNRZiDK3Sad6VrcbXhcN1go5c5jqPSd+H_XE7XqcscjkTg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d7053975d604aaa0a366531a2e2e1615.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
 <CAJPayv3mAyPHVJir8aEj_bCtV5rH=9JMx4ZbzbUW0YMcA6-hWg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyHbXmyMPS5W8rLqRYkjp8v-q+fsnsinnszh2vKg_6_v9Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv3m6WwR+5cmCab2eaXSV9iT6Y9KtuLZ0a3E7pb6wj7unA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRZiDK3Sad6VrcbXhcN1go5c5jqPSd+H_XE7XqcscjkTg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbRB-XyUcLi3iDTopJYhJ9sFrJGV7vktEUDiDZ17PaPbw@mail.gmail.com>

Most on this list, nearly all in fact, liked Trump more than Clinton in
2016 and still do?
John Clark
Adrian also said what I am saying here:

I hope you will not join so many others, John, in making up facts to
support your position.  That would be a truly horrendous irony.  I was
never for Trump and will never be.

Please don't make up facts.

bill w

On Sun, Aug 19, 2018 at 11:47 PM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sun, Aug 19, 2018 at 5:55 AM John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Sat, Aug 18, 2018 at 10:58 PM, Will Steinberg <
> steinberg.will at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Most of us don't like Trump whatsoever,
> >
> > Most on this list, nearly all in fact, liked Trump more than Clinton in
> 2016 and still do. That is a fact
>
> From what I observed, that is not a fact.  That is, in fact, false.
>
> It is the case that most on this list were not as worried as Trump as
> you were.  Some even favored Trump - but not most, so far as I saw.
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Mon Aug 20 14:28:54 2018
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2018 09:28:54 -0500
Subject: [ExI] female heros?
In-Reply-To: <CABf9QbDrMqYSSXrZjq9U8HVAw0-Eb2-1-yoTyfa5yShWFoPQbQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaA32eq802e=+BhJ+_i8Mu2ava22RPD7VejAuC=tWQAag@mail.gmail.com>
 <005701d42df7$6a56c330$3f044990$@rainier66.com>
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 <CAO+xQEbNSqPWDj1a6E7fhA8-rwE6fFbToXWh28DPMhVowM8cBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <009701d42f34$65c57030$31505090$@rainier66.com>
 <CABf9QbCcu8Jd95FB+LkiEVQK+o2mVQDnXoDR=gT+gL5UShB_jg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEaFVwp4fOMn=izRNqOC4_Aj4URra=7KF+Nnuc_rY_=hRQ@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CAKrqSyEi+qv2OU9GpZ59VhCz1Pk4htnJhRX+vLU2UZ6g8-+Ofg@mail.gmail.com>
 <000801d43067$30262d00$90728700$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEYPuLLAa-xdD5wjFoqimncpi5wNLchcr762tQSTvPRJtA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABf9QbANhAvW7Kq-wnvirE0YZdc2SEC1Szx40rhVpDxjG9STXw@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CABf9QbDrMqYSSXrZjq9U8HVAw0-Eb2-1-yoTyfa5yShWFoPQbQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEa4rFgO_aMvrK9t8jCzTJVsJaSJeJif6hWG9g2kS6-qDw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Aug 19, 2018 at 8:04 PM, SR Ballard <sen.otaku at gmail.com> wrote:

> And despite outnumbering men in many institutions of post-secondary
> education they continue to choose lower paying majors, careers, and
> specialties.
>
> I am not interested enough to do the research to find others, but
psychology, for one, went majority female quite a while back, and that's
not a low level profession.

bill w


> For example, women are more likely to become nurses and men are more
> likely to become doctors. When women become either nurses or doctors, they
> choose lower paying specialties than men.
>
> Anecdote (for it's super low worth) -- I loved math all through school,
> and tutored college students while in middle and high school. Men would
> basically never comment on it at all. Women would always come up with a
> remark like, "Oh, math is so hard, I could never be good at that." I never,
> ever heard this from men, even when they were objectively shit at math.
> Same thing when I lifted weights competitively in High School. Men didn't
> say anything, but women sure had a lot to say about it, usually negative.
>
>
> I'm not sure how much is actually men keeping women down and women keeping
> each other down, at least in my age group.
>
>
>
> On Sat, Aug 18, 2018 at 11:49 PM, William Flynn Wallace <
> foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> In colleges and professional schools girls outnumber boys in some of
>> them.  There will be more women getting jobs relative to men, and that
>> means more money and that means power.  To elect people, to direct taxes to
>> your liking.  We almost had a woman president and probably will have soon.
>>
>> Women's time has been very slow getting here but it is still
>> progressing.  Getting to any kind of equality we won't see in our
>> lifetimes.  The only thing keeping women down in the future will be fascism
>> if it increases here.
>>
>> Men and their religions have kept women down ab ovo.  Pun intended.  Men
>> won't give up easily.  You'll have to fight them all the way.  Male ego has
>> to change but that too will take a long time.  And so forth.
>>
>> bill w
>>
>> On Sat, Aug 18, 2018 at 6:51 PM, SR Ballard <sen.otaku at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> For example Vulvodynia
>>> https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/vulvodynia/sy
>>> mptoms-causes/syc-20353423
>>>
>>> There are other, similarly mysterious ailments.
>>>
>>> Another one is that there are pills which increase male libido, but
>>> similar pills don't really exist for women.
>>>
>>> There's not as must research into menstrual management as you might
>>> expect, but it's been getting a lot better recently.
>>>
>>> On Sun, Aug 12, 2018 at 8:49 AM, William Flynn Wallace <
>>> foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Female sexuality & sexual health is more complicated than just
>>>> orgasms.  And those are the parts of female sexuality and health that are
>>>> not well explored.
>>>> sr ballard wrote
>>>>
>>>> Yes, of course.  Can you give me some sort of idea what you are talking
>>>> about?  bill w
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Aug 12, 2018 at 3:38 AM, SR Ballard <sen.otaku at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Aug 10, 2018 at 12:14 PM, William Flynn Wallace <
>>>>> foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I taught a class in Human Sexuality in the 80s and 90s and had no
>>>>>> trouble at all finding research on orgasms of all types.  The first one I
>>>>>> found was John Watson, who got thrown out of Johns Hopkins University
>>>>>> because of his sexual experiments with a female grad student (Rosalie
>>>>>> Raynor of the Watson and Raynor publication) in a basement where they were
>>>>>> hooked up to various recording devices.  I reckon they did not publish that
>>>>>> one.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think if you'll look, you'll find gobs of orgasm research.  What
>>>>>> questions do you want answered?  How about Freud's about the difference
>>>>>> between a vaginal and clitoral orgasm?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> bill w
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Female sexuality & sexual health is more complicated than just
>>>>> orgasms.  And those are the parts of female sexuality and health that are
>>>>> not well explored.
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From pharos at gmail.com  Mon Aug 20 14:58:23 2018
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2018 15:58:23 +0100
Subject: [ExI] New Hubble Deep Field Photos
Message-ID: <CAL_armhZYAHyddUHmHNLS8ga+QyhGLa8+D6gXk2YKA+Y9ts6aA@mail.gmail.com>

The images were taken for a project called the Hubble Deep UV Legacy
Survey, or HDUV, and together they total over 25 total hours of
exposure time! That?s a lot for any telescope, but for Hubble, that?s
deep. They cover about 100 square arc minutes of sky, about the
apparent size of a large grain of sand on the tip of your finger held
at arm?s length. Yet inside that tiny area are the keys to the cosmos.

<https://www.syfy.com/syfywire/hubble-goes-deep-and-finds-thousands-of-galaxies-assembling-when-the-universe-was-young>

<https://www.nasa.gov/feature/goddard/2018/hubble-paints-picture-of-the-evolving-universe>

Quotes:

Astronomers using the ultraviolet vision of NASA?s Hubble Space
Telescope have captured one of the largest panoramic views of the fire
and fury of star birth in the distant universe. The field features
approximately 15,000 galaxies, about 12,000 of which are forming
stars. Hubble?s ultraviolet vision opens a new window on the evolving
universe, tracking the birth of stars over the last 11 billion years
back to the cosmos? busiest star-forming period, which happened about
3 billion years after the big bang.

Ultraviolet light has been the missing piece to the cosmic puzzle.
Now, combined with infrared and visible-light data from Hubble and
other space and ground-based telescopes, astronomers have assembled
one of the most comprehensive portraits yet of the universe?s
evolutionary history.

The image straddles the gap between the very distant galaxies, which
can only be viewed in infrared light, and closer galaxies, which can
be seen across a broad spectrum. The light from distant star-forming
regions in remote galaxies started out as ultraviolet. However, the
expansion of the universe has shifted the light into infrared
wavelengths. By comparing images of star formation in the distant and
nearby universe, astronomers glean a better understanding of how
nearby galaxies grew from small clumps of hot, young stars long ago.

-----------------------

Yes, it's a big universe out there!

BillK



From johnkclark at gmail.com  Mon Aug 20 15:19:36 2018
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2018 11:19:36 -0400
Subject: [ExI] CRACKPOTS (was electoral college)
Message-ID: <CAJPayv1UOkNMuFke=D+ZyfVNR55qm30B5jEKWm9Vyqs84ee2hQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Aug 19, 2018 at 7:36 PM, Will Steinberg <steinberg.will at gmail.com>
wrote:

*>I can expect to see some kind of political bloviation just as much as I
> can expect your annual anti-curiosity psionics post*.*


There are still about 4 months remaining so maybe I won't be able to send
my iterated psi post this year, maybe this year we will at last get solid
proof it exists. Maybe but I very much doubt it and I'll bet you it won't
and I'll give you 1000 to 1 odds. If it does not happen by January 1 2019
you give me $100 and if it does happen I give you $100,000. So do we have a
bet? And remember I don't demand that the phenomenon be explained I just
want solid proof that the psi phenomenon (aka ESP aka Spiritualism aka
Witchcraft) needs to be explained, that is to say I just want evidence it
exists.


 *> Basically you say "there will never be a paper confirming the existence
> of magic published in Nature" even though of course any confirmed discovery
> would immediately leave the realm of magic.*


The universe is full of phenomena that scientists can't explain but none
call it magic and the idea that Science or Nature or Physical Review
Letters will not print ironclad proof of the existence of psi because they
can not explain it is utterly ridiculous. Nobody has a clue why the
universe is accelerating but the people who discovered that it is received
a Nobel Prize and it is considered by most to be one of the most important
scientific discoveries of the century.

*> Even a hundred years ago you would be laughed out of the room for
> suggesting most of what modern physics believes.  *


Physicist of a hundred years ago didn't even know the questions that most
modern physicist are trying to find answers to, you can't understand the
answer if you don't even know the question. All I want is proof that there
really is a psi question, we'll worry about an answer another time.

*> If you have solved the hard problem of consciousness and can tell me
> what the standard model has to do with qualia, I'm all ears!*


The hardest part of explaining the hard problem of consciousness is
confusion over the word "explain". If I say phenomenon X causes
consciousness I mean if X happens consciousness always follows, but you
will no doubt say that doesn't explain it because X itself is not
consciousness, but if X were consciousness that would be saying
consciousness is consciousness and that's just a tautology and would not
explain it either. So what is it that would satisfy you? And this is not
limited to qualia, if you come home and find a broken window and shards of
glass and a rock on the floor you would not hesitate to say the rock caused
the broken window even though a rock is not a broken window.

And of course you'll want to know what caused X, if I say Y did you'll ask
what caused Y, if I say Z did I know what you will ask next. But either
there is a infinite sequence of "what caused this" questions and reality is
like a infinitely nested Matryoshka doll with one doll always inside
another or the sequence terminates in a brute fact, there is after all no
law of logic that demands every event have a cause. I have a hunch in this
case the brute fact is consciousness is the way data feels like when it is
being processed.

Yet another cause of confusion is science just answers how questions, a why
question implies intent so a why question like why does consciousness exist
would be appropriate only if science had evidence for the existence of God.
And it doesn't


John K Clark
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Mon Aug 20 15:33:00 2018
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2018 11:33:00 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Electoral College
In-Reply-To: <005c01d4382e$d97ee490$8c7cadb0$@rainier66.com>
References: <d7053975d604aaa0a366531a2e2e1615.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
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On Sun, Aug 19, 2018 at 10:38 PM, <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:

>
> We don?t discuss politics on my math forums or motorcycle forums.  So why
> here?
>

Because politics, with a libertarian accent, has been a major topic of
conversation for the 25 years I've been on the Extropian list, but suddenly
when Trump grabbed power things changed and for the first time in its
history we're suposed to be completely apolitical. Well not completely, its
still OK to complain about Trump as long as you make it perfectly clear
he's better than Obama or either Clinton.

John K Clark
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From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Aug 20 15:49:07 2018
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2018 08:49:07 -0700
Subject: [ExI] New Hubble Deep Field Photos
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armhZYAHyddUHmHNLS8ga+QyhGLa8+D6gXk2YKA+Y9ts6aA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armhZYAHyddUHmHNLS8ga+QyhGLa8+D6gXk2YKA+Y9ts6aA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <003c01d4389d$5465ddd0$fd319970$@rainier66.com>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of BillK
Sent: Monday, August 20, 2018 7:58 AM
To: Extropy Chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: [ExI] New Hubble Deep Field Photos

The images were taken for a project called the Hubble Deep UV Legacy Survey, or HDUV, and together they total over 25 total hours of exposure time! That?s a lot for any telescope, but for Hubble, that?s deep. They cover about 100 square arc minutes of sky, about the apparent size of a large grain of sand on the tip of your finger held at arm?s length. Yet inside that tiny area are the keys to the cosmos.

<https://www.syfy.com/syfywire/hubble-goes-deep-and-finds-thousands-of-galaxies-assembling-when-the-universe-was-young>

<https://www.nasa.gov/feature/goddard/2018/hubble-paints-picture-of-the-evolving-universe>


-----------------------

Yes, it's a big universe out there!

BillK

_______________________________________________


Cool!

Minor point: square of area about 100 arc minutes would be 10 arc minutes on a side.  The moon (and sun) are about 30 arc minutes across, so it is an area about a tenth of a full moon.

I set these Hubble images as my background screen.  Every time I sit down here, I marvel at how cool it is to be living in the here and now.

spike




From johnkclark at gmail.com  Mon Aug 20 16:12:49 2018
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2018 12:12:49 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Electoral College
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEbRB-XyUcLi3iDTopJYhJ9sFrJGV7vktEUDiDZ17PaPbw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d7053975d604aaa0a366531a2e2e1615.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
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On Mon, Aug 20, 2018 at 10:26 AM, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com
> wrote:

>>
>> Most on this list, nearly all in fact, liked Trump more than Clinton in
>> 2016 and still do?
>
>
> >
> Adrian also said what I am saying here:
> I hope you will not join so many others, John, in making up facts to
> support your position.  That would be a truly horrendous irony.  I was
> never for Trump and will never be.
> Please don't make up facts.
>

Did you vote for Clinton in 2016? If you did then I apologize but if you
didn't you must have liked Trump more than Clinton or thought there was no
difference between them because voting for a fourth party libertarian
nobody who's name I've forgotten (the "what is Aleppo?" guy)  in 2016 was
equivalent to not voting at all. If libertarian voters had gone for Clinton
we'd now have a mediocre President Clinton but instead we have a nightmare
President Trump. Mediocrity is looking mighty appealing these days! There
must be somebody on the list besides me that voted for Clinton but if there
is he's yet to speak up.

John K Clark
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From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Aug 20 16:14:24 2018
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2018 09:14:24 -0700
Subject: [ExI] New Hubble Deep Field Photos
References: <CAL_armhZYAHyddUHmHNLS8ga+QyhGLa8+D6gXk2YKA+Y9ts6aA@mail.gmail.com> 
Message-ID: <004801d438a0$dcfb8160$96f28420$@rainier66.com>



-----Original Message-----
From: spike at rainier66.com <spike at rainier66.com> 


_______________________________________________


Cool!

>... square of area about 100 arc minutes would be 10 arc minutes on a side.  The moon (and sun) are about 30 arc minutes across, so it is an area about a tenth of a full moon...spike

We can make this work with only some minor brute force: a person can have a really really short arm (the T-Rex did) and imagine a really super huge grain of sand.  Sand is mostly quartz, and those can grow to arbitrary size methinks.  So just get a person with a short enough arm and a big enough grain of sand, and there you go.

But it has me thinking and pondering: why is it that when we use the terms grain of sand and grain of salt, most people can pretty well picture something somewhere in a range of perhaps a tenth of a millimeter to about a millimeter range?  I would estimate a typical grain of sand might be in the lower end of that range, and we already know it goes on down from there generally, but why don't we see really honking big grains of sand?  Or can we just call pea gravel really coarse sand? Why is it that when you go to the beach, most of the sand there is in that one decade range of size?

It would be interesting if some sharp high school student were to go out somewhere where there has never been any development, scoop up a shovel of whatever is down there, take it home, get a microscope, try to create a histogram of particle sizes she finds in there, see if it is kinda uniform across the size spectrum or if there is some kind of peak at the place where a lot of us think of the size of a grain of sand.

spike




From sparge at gmail.com  Mon Aug 20 16:21:30 2018
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2018 12:21:30 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Electoral College
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv1KRyfwwNGgwBp94ZpVUZo5w4PbASZ7=aJKPT0gLELwSw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d7053975d604aaa0a366531a2e2e1615.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
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Message-ID: <CAM5aL2cbVWzzs-HttBR-FjkdgQ+SxfcHW5diC-1dc-95YkK+uA@mail.gmail.com>

I think we need at least a temporary moratorium on US politics on this
list. We're beyond beating a dead horse and it's driving people away.

-Dave
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Mon Aug 20 16:22:20 2018
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2018 11:22:20 -0500
Subject: [ExI] CRACKPOTS (was electoral college)
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv1UOkNMuFke=D+ZyfVNR55qm30B5jEKWm9Vyqs84ee2hQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv1UOkNMuFke=D+ZyfVNR55qm30B5jEKWm9Vyqs84ee2hQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYwDhjDAPi34jPC97TX+qzv23vKrGW-iGWpxBkBCvdstw@mail.gmail.com>

John, if you want spiritualism and witchcraft explained, you need to read
the first few chapters of The Golden Bough.  If the rain did not come after
the rain god was invoked, the rain man was sacrificed and a new one
selected.  The only evidence here was of the beliefs themselves.

Evidence has been sought thousands of times by important people, including
Newton.  Hasn't been found and won't be, I say.  Some people on MOther
Earth are still living in the Stone Age.  Many are still in the witchcraft
stage, which occurs before the religion stage, according to Frazer.  Modern
society seems to be moving out of the religious stage and to what is no
evident.  Used to be, if you weren't superstitious, you weren't one of us.
Now, being so would get you laughed at in any modern forum (though that
would not change those people).

We need some new topics, people.  Some topics have been beaten to death but
have refused to die.

bill w

On Mon, Aug 20, 2018 at 10:19 AM, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sun, Aug 19, 2018 at 7:36 PM, Will Steinberg <steinberg.will at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> *>I can expect to see some kind of political bloviation just as much as I
>> can expect your annual anti-curiosity psionics post*.*
>
>
> There are still about 4 months remaining so maybe I won't be able to send
> my iterated psi post this year, maybe this year we will at last get solid
> proof it exists. Maybe but I very much doubt it and I'll bet you it won't
> and I'll give you 1000 to 1 odds. If it does not happen by January 1 2019
> you give me $100 and if it does happen I give you $100,000. So do we have a
> bet? And remember I don't demand that the phenomenon be explained I just
> want solid proof that the psi phenomenon (aka ESP aka Spiritualism aka
> Witchcraft) needs to be explained, that is to say I just want evidence it
> exists.
>
>
>  *> Basically you say "there will never be a paper confirming the
>> existence of magic published in Nature" even though of course any confirmed
>> discovery would immediately leave the realm of magic.*
>
>
> The universe is full of phenomena that scientists can't explain but none
> call it magic and the idea that Science or Nature or Physical Review
> Letters will not print ironclad proof of the existence of psi because they
> can not explain it is utterly ridiculous. Nobody has a clue why the
> universe is accelerating but the people who discovered that it is received
> a Nobel Prize and it is considered by most to be one of the most important
> scientific discoveries of the century.
>
> *> Even a hundred years ago you would be laughed out of the room for
>> suggesting most of what modern physics believes.  *
>
>
> Physicist of a hundred years ago didn't even know the questions that most
> modern physicist are trying to find answers to, you can't understand the
> answer if you don't even know the question. All I want is proof that there
> really is a psi question, we'll worry about an answer another time.
>
> *> If you have solved the hard problem of consciousness and can tell me
>> what the standard model has to do with qualia, I'm all ears!*
>
>
> The hardest part of explaining the hard problem of consciousness is
> confusion over the word "explain". If I say phenomenon X causes
> consciousness I mean if X happens consciousness always follows, but you
> will no doubt say that doesn't explain it because X itself is not
> consciousness, but if X were consciousness that would be saying
> consciousness is consciousness and that's just a tautology and would not
> explain it either. So what is it that would satisfy you? And this is not
> limited to qualia, if you come home and find a broken window and shards of
> glass and a rock on the floor you would not hesitate to say the rock caused
> the broken window even though a rock is not a broken window.
>
> And of course you'll want to know what caused X, if I say Y did you'll ask
> what caused Y, if I say Z did I know what you will ask next. But either
> there is a infinite sequence of "what caused this" questions and reality is
> like a infinitely nested Matryoshka doll with one doll always inside
> another or the sequence terminates in a brute fact, there is after all no
> law of logic that demands every event have a cause. I have a hunch in this
> case the brute fact is consciousness is the way data feels like when it is
> being processed.
>
> Yet another cause of confusion is science just answers how questions, a
> why question implies intent so a why question like why does consciousness
> exist would be appropriate only if science had evidence for the existence
> of God. And it doesn't
>
>
> John K Clark
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Mon Aug 20 16:27:56 2018
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2018 11:27:56 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Electoral College
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv1KRyfwwNGgwBp94ZpVUZo5w4PbASZ7=aJKPT0gLELwSw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d7053975d604aaa0a366531a2e2e1615.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
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Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZVH9eQFQ7qgz=4Oa_eomaeQBQ+jyV85=ywFoKZrSah_w@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Aug 20, 2018 at 11:12 AM, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

>
> On Mon, Aug 20, 2018 at 10:26 AM, William Flynn Wallace <
> foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>
>>> Most on this list, nearly all in fact, liked Trump more than Clinton in
>>> 2016 and still do?
>>
>>
>> >
>> Adrian also said what I am saying here:
>> I hope you will not join so many others, John, in making up facts to
>> support your position.  That would be a truly horrendous irony.  I was
>> never for Trump and will never be.
>> Please don't make up facts.
>>
>
> Did you vote for Clinton in 2016?
>

I did not vote for Clinton because I did not vote. I live in Mississippi
and did not want to waste my time.  Polls showed it would be.  You might
remember that I supported you several times before the election occurred.
I viewed Trump as a baboon, buffoon, liar, narcissist from the first.  I
accept your apology, so let's forget it.

bill w

If you did then I apologize but if you didn't you must have liked Trump
> more than Clinton or thought there was no difference between them because
> voting for a fourth party libertarian nobody who's name I've forgotten (the
> "what is Aleppo?" guy)  in 2016 was equivalent to not voting at all. If
> libertarian voters had gone for Clinton we'd now have a mediocre President
> Clinton but instead we have a nightmare President Trump. Mediocrity is
> looking mighty appealing these days! There must be somebody on the list
> besides me that voted for Clinton but if there is he's yet to speak up.
>
> John K Clark
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Aug 20 16:31:50 2018
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2018 09:31:50 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Electoral College
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv1KRyfwwNGgwBp94ZpVUZo5w4PbASZ7=aJKPT0gLELwSw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d7053975d604aaa0a366531a2e2e1615.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
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Message-ID: <007101d438a3$4c5a5480$e50efd80$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of John Clark



>?because voting for a fourth party libertarian nobody who's name I've forgotten (the "what is Aleppo?" guy)  in 2016 was equivalent to not voting at all?John K Clark  

 

 

 

 

On the contrary.  If either of the mainstream candidates (whose names I?ve forgotten) had embraced Gary Johnson?s followers, he or she would have achieved a clean win.

 

Gary was running for president of the United States.  The others were running for president of the world.

 

Remind me please, what state is Aleppo in?

 

spike

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From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Aug 20 16:33:21 2018
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2018 09:33:21 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Electoral College
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2cbVWzzs-HttBR-FjkdgQ+SxfcHW5diC-1dc-95YkK+uA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d7053975d604aaa0a366531a2e2e1615.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
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Message-ID: <008201d438a3$82b212c0$88163840$@rainier66.com>

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Dave Sill
Sent: Monday, August 20, 2018 9:22 AM
To: Extropy chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: Re: [ExI] Electoral College

 

I think we need at least a temporary moratorium on US politics on this list. We're beyond beating a dead horse and it's driving people away.

 

-Dave

 

 

 

Agreed.

 

I propose a temporary voluntary moratorium on political discussion.  We recognize the US is in weird times, a civil cold war which has been raging for at least a coupla years.  This too with time shall pass.

 

spike

 

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From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Aug 20 16:56:20 2018
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2018 09:56:20 -0700
Subject: [ExI] CRACKPOTS (was electoral college)
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYwDhjDAPi34jPC97TX+qzv23vKrGW-iGWpxBkBCvdstw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv1UOkNMuFke=D+ZyfVNR55qm30B5jEKWm9Vyqs84ee2hQ@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <00ba01d438a6$b8cfcde0$2a6f69a0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace
Subject: Re: [ExI] CRACKPOTS (was electoral college)

 

>?John, if you want spiritualism and witchcraft explained? The only evidence here was of the beliefs themselves.  

 

>?Evidence has been sought ?  

 

HAH!  Unbeliever!  Here?s yer evidence:

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/nigeria/4325377/Nigerian-police-hold-magic-goat-over-attempted-car-theft.html

 

>?Hasn't been found and won't be, I say?  bill w

 

Oh ye of little faith.

 

You just wait pal, that goat might confess before it?s over.

 

{8^D

 

Oh man, wouldn?t it be cool, we could play some terrific gags.  We get the cell keys, somehow distract the constables, sneak in there with an actual (human) car thief who is under heavy sedation, doesn?t know what?s going on, switch them, get on out of the police station undetected with the goat, watch what happens next morning at breakfast after the thief sobers up.  They would be talking about a car theft, which he knows he really did, but would be unable to explain how he turned himself into a goat and how the spell wore off.  Any skeptical locals would have their faith reinforced.  Oh that would be a total hoot.

 

spike

 

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From steinberg.will at gmail.com  Mon Aug 20 17:03:50 2018
From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2018 13:03:50 -0400
Subject: [ExI] CRACKPOTS (was electoral college)
In-Reply-To: <00ba01d438a6$b8cfcde0$2a6f69a0$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAJPayv1UOkNMuFke=D+ZyfVNR55qm30B5jEKWm9Vyqs84ee2hQ@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAKrqSyF0B1JyvXQWWLv0O+evH7KxbkiNycdn5dzaxdgyXcSQNA@mail.gmail.com>

John,

1) Give me a list of exactly what constitutes the "psi phenomenon" and I
will consider taking the bet.  I don't make bets with nebulous terms.

2) My response to the rest:

On Mon, Aug 20, 2018 at 11:20 AM John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

>
> If I say phenomenon X causes consciousness I mean if X happens
> consciousness always follows, but you will no doubt say that doesn't
> explain it because X itself is not consciousness,
>

If it rains, wetness follows, but saying that rain causes wetness as an
explanation for wetness itself would be idiotic.  Rain is certainly one of
the things that may cause wetness.

With consciousness, it is even further removed.  You could say that a brain
always causes consciousness, however not only can you not prove any
consciousness exists (so it is hard to obtain statements of causality
already) but what you think stems from a narrow definition of
consciousness.

Your parents were conscious, no?  And they made you?  So it was
consciousness that created your brain.

If consciousness is expanded to include any system interacting with another
system and gaining information about (becoming conscious of) it, then the
entire process was facilitated by ro equal to consciousness.  Your body,
mind, and DNA is composed of myriad 'beings'--that is to say, entities that
can be fecund independently of John K Clark.  Genes, memes, endosymbionts,
thoughts, corporeal fauna, &c.  It is not my fault that you narrowly define
consciousness as a limited experience of human brains.


> but if X were consciousness that would be saying consciousness is
> consciousness and that's just a tautology and would not explain it either.
> So what is it that would satisfy you? And this is not limited to qualia, if
> you come home and find a broken window and shards of glass and a rock on
> the floor you would not hesitate to say the rock caused the broken window
> even though a rock is not a broken window.
>

Yes, and we have equations to describe PRECISELY how the rock breaks the
window.  We have a near-total mathematical understanding of at least the
macro-level events involved, and much of the micro.  Even down to the
subatomic level, we can make good guesses about what kind of equations are
needed to explain the actions of the rock on the window.

For conscious there are NO such equations postulated.  We are able to infer
the existence of many cosmological phenomena before actually observing them
directly, because of the ability to use logical inference on previous
formulae.  Black holes make sense because we can piece together equations
for them.  Consciousness does NOT follow from any current



> And of course you'll want to know what caused X, if I say Y did you'll ask
> what caused Y, if I say Z did I know what you will ask next. But either
> there is a infinite sequence of "what caused this" questions and reality is
> like a infinitely nested Matryoshka doll with one doll always inside
> another or the sequence terminates in a brute fact, there is after all no
> law of logic that demands every event have a cause. I have a hunch in this
> case the brute fact is consciousness is the way data feels like when it is
> being processed.
>

We agree for the most part.  However it is not satisfactory to me to place
consciousness as merely the way something in the universe feels, as this is
a cop-out.  We do not stop asking questions or trying to figure out causes
when it comes to gravity or electromagnetism.  We do not say:

"The brute fact is gravity is the way massive objects act when they are
proximal to one another"

but instead we delve deeper to continue finding root causes.  The three
sentences of yours directly above are some of the most anti-intelligence
statements I have read here.



> Yet another cause of confusion is science just answers how questions, a
> why question implies intent so a why question like why does consciousness
> exist would be appropriate only if science had evidence for the existence
> of God. And it doesn't
>

 Another cop-out.  Fine, let's just say "HOW does consciousness
exist?"--better?  Is there really a difference between "why do massive
objects attract each other?" and "how do massive object attract each
other"?  Not for any legitimate purposes, no.

Here are some things I will state that you may or may not address:

1) All known formulae regarding the actions of the universe have been
created by consciousness.

2) All known evidence for the existence of the universe have been gathered
by consciousness.

3) It is a paradox and logical fallacy to try and conceive of a universe
existing but without consciousness.  Without consciousness, existence may
as well not exist.

But mainly, I will point to the main fact that makes me KNOW that your
opinions on consciousness are rooted in a deep denial or reality, and not
any sort of logic.  For ANY other problem in the universe desiring an
answer--"What makes massive object attract?"; "What caused [various
instances of] symmetry breaking?"; "What causes [each of the current four]
forces?"; "What is the mathematical model for the weak force?"; "What is
dark matter?"; "What is dark energy?"; "Why does the universe to continue
to expand?"--you would agree that we should continue to seek answers.  It
is ONLY consciousness that scares you too much to attempt to comprehend.

IMAGINE if I said:

The brute fact is, dark energy is the way the universe feels when it expands

I hope you would call me out on the 'brute fact' that this statement is,
what do you call it again?

Oh right.  BULLSHIT.
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From steinberg.will at gmail.com  Mon Aug 20 17:06:03 2018
From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2018 13:06:03 -0400
Subject: [ExI] CRACKPOTS (was electoral college)
In-Reply-To: <CAKrqSyF0B1JyvXQWWLv0O+evH7KxbkiNycdn5dzaxdgyXcSQNA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv1UOkNMuFke=D+ZyfVNR55qm30B5jEKWm9Vyqs84ee2hQ@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAKrqSyFdGLbrvO3hk+J-YBseAyaQqYZYhO52Z1jG2VGkQMXssg@mail.gmail.com>

Typo edits:

1) "...facilitated by *or equal to..."

2) "...follow from any current *mathematical models of reality."
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Mon Aug 20 17:28:19 2018
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2018 12:28:19 -0500
Subject: [ExI] CRACKPOTS (was electoral college)
In-Reply-To: <00ba01d438a6$b8cfcde0$2a6f69a0$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAJPayv1UOkNMuFke=D+ZyfVNR55qm30B5jEKWm9Vyqs84ee2hQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYwDhjDAPi34jPC97TX+qzv23vKrGW-iGWpxBkBCvdstw@mail.gmail.com>
 <00ba01d438a6$b8cfcde0$2a6f69a0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZzBAeYkJw69GFWDULcLMDsdvQ7oHT=-KLo4VCJCx1xZg@mail.gmail.com>

Hope you don't mind my starting at the top.

What an incredible mess we have made of the world.  Just a few thousand
years ago, if Frazer is correct, we had no religions - just magic (totally
different as he defined them).

Now we have thousands of religions (see Oh Gods, from Atlantic Monthly a
while back) and two new ones every day.  And they exist at the same time as
others are still going the magic route, and others are graduating from
religion to ????

So we used to be very homogeneous and now we are about as diverse as we
could get.

"Those folks over there, with their different religion, food, dance, etc.
They are the causes of our problems and we need to wipe them out, get their
stuff and their women."   About the oldest idea in the world.  If you
wanted to design a world that strongly tended toward war, you could not
have done a better job than to create what we have now.

FYI, goats and other animals have been brought to courts of law - been
found not guilty, been found guilty.  In France!!  I wonder if all of this
is just excuses to kill something and eat it.

Is this the modern world?  Yeah, in some places.  Many have gone to the
Moon and many wear bones in their noses.  LOL   You gotta admit it's
entertaining.  I just love psychology and everything related.  Just amazing
creatures we are.

bill w

On Mon, Aug 20, 2018 at 11:56 AM, <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On Behalf
> Of *William Flynn Wallace
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] CRACKPOTS (was electoral college)
>
>
>
> >?John, if you want spiritualism and witchcraft explained? The only
> evidence here was of the beliefs themselves.
>
>
>
> >?Evidence has been sought ?
>
>
>
> HAH!  Unbeliever!  Here?s yer evidence:
>
>
>
> https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/nigeria/
> 4325377/Nigerian-police-hold-magic-goat-over-attempted-car-theft.html
>
>
>
> >?Hasn't been found and won't be, I say?  bill w
>
>
>
> Oh ye of little faith.
>
>
>
> You just wait pal, that goat might confess before it?s over.
>
>
>
> {8^D
>
>
>
> Oh man, wouldn?t it be cool, we could play some terrific gags.  We get the
> cell keys, somehow distract the constables, sneak in there with an actual
> (human) car thief who is under heavy sedation, doesn?t know what?s going
> on, switch them, get on out of the police station undetected with the goat,
> watch what happens next morning at breakfast after the thief sobers up.
> They would be talking about a car theft, which he knows he really did, but
> would be unable to explain how he turned himself into a goat and how the
> spell wore off.  Any skeptical locals would have their faith reinforced.
> Oh that would be a total hoot.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Mon Aug 20 17:29:57 2018
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2018 12:29:57 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Electoral College
In-Reply-To: <008201d438a3$82b212c0$88163840$@rainier66.com>
References: <d7053975d604aaa0a366531a2e2e1615.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
 <CAJPayv3mAyPHVJir8aEj_bCtV5rH=9JMx4ZbzbUW0YMcA6-hWg@mail.gmail.com>
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I propose a temporary voluntary moratorium on political discussion.  We
recognize the US is in weird times, a civil cold war which has been raging
for at least a coupla years.  This too with time shall pass.



spike
Then we all have to agree to ignore any political postings.  I'm in.  bill w

On Mon, Aug 20, 2018 at 11:33 AM, <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:

>
>
> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On Behalf
> Of *Dave Sill
> *Sent:* Monday, August 20, 2018 9:22 AM
> *To:* Extropy chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Electoral College
>
>
>
> I think we need at least a temporary moratorium on US politics on this
> list. We're beyond beating a dead horse and it's driving people away.
>
>
>
> -Dave
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Agreed.
>
>
>
> I propose a temporary voluntary moratorium on political discussion.  We
> recognize the US is in weird times, a civil cold war which has been raging
> for at least a coupla years.  This too with time shall pass.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Mon Aug 20 17:46:58 2018
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2018 12:46:58 -0500
Subject: [ExI] physics question
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYn3Y=oPbJvkj8rmS=Ef_W+BZpHgqMc=G=DPCdrFeztnw@mail.gmail.com>

There were 400 days in an earth year 620 million years ago.

HUh??

bill w
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From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Aug 20 17:58:54 2018
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2018 10:58:54 -0700
Subject: [ExI] CRACKPOTS (was electoral college)
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEZzBAeYkJw69GFWDULcLMDsdvQ7oHT=-KLo4VCJCx1xZg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv1UOkNMuFke=D+ZyfVNR55qm30B5jEKWm9Vyqs84ee2hQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYwDhjDAPi34jPC97TX+qzv23vKrGW-iGWpxBkBCvdstw@mail.gmail.com>
 <00ba01d438a6$b8cfcde0$2a6f69a0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEZzBAeYkJw69GFWDULcLMDsdvQ7oHT=-KLo4VCJCx1xZg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <004301d438af$7655be30$63013a90$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace
Subject: Re: [ExI] CRACKPOTS (was electoral college)

 

>?Hope you don't mind my starting at the top?

 

Nah, we were strict on the protocol of not doing that in the long agos, but I never saw the harm in it, so I never enforced it.  Rules need justification and periodic rejustification.  Laws should come with expiration/renewal dates.

 

>?Just a few thousand years ago, if Frazer is correct, we had no religions - just magic (totally different as he defined them).

 

Nah, I disagree.  Some form of religion, magic, superstition goes back to way before a few kyrs I would suppose.  Even dogs have a kind of religion sorta.  They worship us, they try to do magic incantations by going thru some kinds of motions we like, and thus influence us to help them.  We might see that as an incantation or prayer.  Hey, it works.  We feed them, we house them, we?take them to the vet (see there, dog hell exists too.)

 

>?What an incredible mess we have made of the world. 

 

>? So we used to be very homogeneous and now we are about as diverse as we could get.

 

These two comments are contradictory.  If diversity is good, then we have fixed an incredible mess the world used to be in.

 

I tend to see it that way, for if everyone has a different religion, then any particular religion is less dangerous than it would otherwise be.  Morality would be loose but within reasonable legal guidelines (no letting your goat go out and steal cars, etc.)

 

>?Now we have thousands of religions (see Oh Gods, from Atlantic Monthly a while back) and two new ones every day?

 

There ya go, solving problems, two at a time.

 

>?"Those folks over there, with their different religion, food, dance, etc.  They are the causes of our problems and we need to wipe them out, get their stuff and their women."

 

See how far we have come?  Now we make our own stuff, and their women come over to us willingly and eagerly if our stuff is sufficiently cool and advanced.  Such a deal!

 

 

>?FYI, goats and other animals have been brought to courts of law - been found not guilty, been found guilty.  In France!!  I wonder if all of this is just excuses to kill something and eat it?

 

Ja perhaps.  I would still love to catch either of the Nigerian bastards who really did steal the car, put him in the tank, take the goat back to whoever they stole her from (who you know wouldn?t say anything for fear he would be accused of stealing the car) then when he finds her back, he still wouldn?t say anything because good chance the Nigerian goat farmer is also superstitious and isn?t entirely sure she didn?t do it.  He has seen her eyeballing his car and vaguely suspects she is going to sneak out and go for a joy ride.

  

 

>?Is this the modern world?  Yeah, in some places.  Many have gone to the Moon and many wear bones in their noses.  LOL

 

It surprises me how many American young people are trending back toward wearing a modern metal equivalent of a nose-bone.

 

 

 >?  You gotta admit it's entertaining.  bill w

 

 

Oh how I do.  I really do: I laugh so hard at us.  We humans are so crazy, dogs must be puzzled as all get out.  Maybe that?s why they do that sideways head thing.  They are thinking: whaaaat in the human-damn hellllllll????

 

In our modern world we have all this leisure time, and all this access to hilarious news about goats stealing cars and the inherent goofiness of a world in which modern science and tech exists alongside ancient witchcraft, sheesh is it any wonder I sit around plotting how to play gags on the superstitious goofballs?  Ethics schmethics, the laughs we could get out of it would more than compensate for a guilty conscience, I would laugh my way thru my penance.

 

spike

 

 

 

 

On Mon, Aug 20, 2018 at 11:56 AM, <spike at rainier66.com <mailto:spike at rainier66.com> > wrote:

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> > On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace
Subject: Re: [ExI] CRACKPOTS (was electoral college)

 

>?John, if you want spiritualism and witchcraft explained? The only evidence here was of the beliefs themselves.  

 

>?Evidence has been sought ?  

 

HAH!  Unbeliever!  Here?s yer evidence:

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/nigeria/4325377/Nigerian-police-hold-magic-goat-over-attempted-car-theft.html

 

>?Hasn't been found and won't be, I say?  bill w

 

Oh ye of little faith.

 

You just wait pal, that goat might confess before it?s over.

 

{8^D

 

Oh man, wouldn?t it be cool, we could play some terrific gags.  We get the cell keys, somehow distract the constables, sneak in there with an actual (human) car thief who is under heavy sedation, doesn?t know what?s going on, switch them, get on out of the police station undetected with the goat, watch what happens next morning at breakfast after the thief sobers up.  They would be talking about a car theft, which he knows he really did, but would be unable to explain how he turned himself into a goat and how the spell wore off.  Any skeptical locals would have their faith reinforced.  Oh that would be a total hoot.

 

spike

 


_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> 
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

 

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From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Aug 20 18:01:10 2018
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2018 11:01:10 -0700
Subject: [ExI] physics question
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYn3Y=oPbJvkj8rmS=Ef_W+BZpHgqMc=G=DPCdrFeztnw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYn3Y=oPbJvkj8rmS=Ef_W+BZpHgqMc=G=DPCdrFeztnw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <005401d438af$c7020e60$55062b20$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace
Sent: Monday, August 20, 2018 10:47 AM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: [ExI] physics question

 

There were 400 days in an earth year 620 million years ago.

 

HUh??

 

bill w

 

 

Ja.  The moon drags on the earth thru tides.  This gradually moves the moon to a higher orbit and slows the earth?s rotation (angular momentum is conserved.)  Eventually the earth and moon will be tide locked, so we might need to go to the other side of the planet to see it.

 

spike

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From pharos at gmail.com  Mon Aug 20 18:16:13 2018
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2018 19:16:13 +0100
Subject: [ExI] New Hubble Deep Field Photos
In-Reply-To: <004801d438a0$dcfb8160$96f28420$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAL_armhZYAHyddUHmHNLS8ga+QyhGLa8+D6gXk2YKA+Y9ts6aA@mail.gmail.com>
 <004801d438a0$dcfb8160$96f28420$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armjEEs5JKeCWQdjWomXP3Mhs9=jUBEdFjaqMWr=PTPibkA@mail.gmail.com>

On 20 August 2018 at 17:14,  spike wrote:
>
>>... square of area about 100 arc minutes would be 10 arc minutes on a side.
>> The moon (and sun) are about 30 arc minutes across, so it is an area about a tenth of a full moon.
>
> We can make this work with only some minor brute force: a person can have a really really short arm
> (the T-Rex did) and imagine a really super huge grain of sand.  Sand is mostly quartz, and those can
> grow to arbitrary size methinks.  So just get a person with a short enough arm and a big enough grain
> of sand, and there you go.
>

Hmmmm...  Another way of looking at it is that the width of a thumb
(presumably a male thumb) :) held at arms length is about 2 arc
degrees = 120 arc minutes. So a thumb at arms length would block out
the moon. My thumb is about 1 inch wide, so a square of c. 1/12 inch
(c.2 mm) sides would be quite small. That's quite a big grain of sand,
though some types of sand are rougher than others.
The next size up is gravel, and it is definitely smaller than that. :)
See: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sand>

BillK


From foozler83 at gmail.com  Mon Aug 20 19:00:57 2018
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2018 14:00:57 -0500
Subject: [ExI] physics question
In-Reply-To: <005401d438af$c7020e60$55062b20$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYn3Y=oPbJvkj8rmS=Ef_W+BZpHgqMc=G=DPCdrFeztnw@mail.gmail.com>
 <005401d438af$c7020e60$55062b20$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZswaRLqjVaJT2+phLx==1QWQgdJhos1j9PHW9TXXe21w@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks.  By 'we' I assume you mean some far future people.  bill w

On Mon, Aug 20, 2018 at 1:01 PM, <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On Behalf
> Of *William Flynn Wallace
> *Sent:* Monday, August 20, 2018 10:47 AM
> *To:* ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> *Subject:* [ExI] physics question
>
>
>
> There were 400 days in an earth year 620 million years ago.
>
>
>
> HUh??
>
>
>
> bill w
>
>
>
>
>
> Ja.  The moon drags on the earth thru tides.  This gradually moves the
> moon to a higher orbit and slows the earth?s rotation (angular momentum is
> conserved.)  Eventually the earth and moon will be tide locked, so we might
> need to go to the other side of the planet to see it.
>
>
>
> spike
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From atymes at gmail.com  Mon Aug 20 20:13:04 2018
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2018 13:13:04 -0700
Subject: [ExI] physics question
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEZswaRLqjVaJT2+phLx==1QWQgdJhos1j9PHW9TXXe21w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYn3Y=oPbJvkj8rmS=Ef_W+BZpHgqMc=G=DPCdrFeztnw@mail.gmail.com>
 <005401d438af$c7020e60$55062b20$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEZswaRLqjVaJT2+phLx==1QWQgdJhos1j9PHW9TXXe21w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNS3w_QScyT6G=RrDNm_biSOTH=_yMZL4cHWrdy+o6qCoQ@mail.gmail.com>

Remember what list this is.  Some of those far future people could
indeed be some of those currently participating in this list.
On Mon, Aug 20, 2018 at 12:03 PM William Flynn Wallace
<foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Thanks.  By 'we' I assume you mean some far future people.  bill w
>
> On Mon, Aug 20, 2018 at 1:01 PM, <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace
>> Sent: Monday, August 20, 2018 10:47 AM
>> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
>> Subject: [ExI] physics question
>>
>>
>>
>> There were 400 days in an earth year 620 million years ago.
>>
>>
>>
>> HUh??
>>
>>
>>
>> bill w
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Ja.  The moon drags on the earth thru tides.  This gradually moves the moon to a higher orbit and slows the earth?s rotation (angular momentum is conserved.)  Eventually the earth and moon will be tide locked, so we might need to go to the other side of the planet to see it.
>>
>>
>>
>> spike
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat



From atymes at gmail.com  Mon Aug 20 20:25:48 2018
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2018 13:25:48 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Electoral College
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv1KRyfwwNGgwBp94ZpVUZo5w4PbASZ7=aJKPT0gLELwSw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d7053975d604aaa0a366531a2e2e1615.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
 <CAJPayv3mAyPHVJir8aEj_bCtV5rH=9JMx4ZbzbUW0YMcA6-hWg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyHbXmyMPS5W8rLqRYkjp8v-q+fsnsinnszh2vKg_6_v9Q@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CALAdGNSVp45PKWz4mc5PYsi5r2aAegc0GX_r=V7Lb3AwbfZmRA@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Aug 20, 2018 at 9:14 AM John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:
> Did you vote for Clinton in 2016? If you did then I apologize but if you didn't you must have liked Trump more than Clinton or thought there was no difference between them because voting for a fourth party libertarian nobody who's name I've forgotten (the "what is Aleppo?" guy)  in 2016 was equivalent to not voting at all.

Only equivalent in determining between Trump and Clinton.

Also, as you note, not voting for Clinton or Trump is not actively
favoring Trump over Clinton.  There are those of us who thought
neither of them was suitable for office, and voted accordingly.  (And
there are members of this list who did not vote in the 2016 US
presidential elections for very good reasons, such as not being US
citizens at the time.)  So kindly stop accusing those of us who did
not vote for Clinton or Trump of favoring Trump.

If you refuse to do so, I'm thinking that may be reason for the
moderator to ban you from this list, because accusing people of
actively supporting Trump because they voted third party (or otherwise
didn't vote for either Clinton or Trump) is slander, and you have been
quite insistent on repeating it at every opportunity so it's no
one-time misstatement.

Spike, please take note: this is an official complaint to the
moderator, awaiting John's response.



From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Aug 20 20:30:27 2018
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2018 13:30:27 -0700
Subject: [ExI] physics question
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEZswaRLqjVaJT2+phLx==1QWQgdJhos1j9PHW9TXXe21w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYn3Y=oPbJvkj8rmS=Ef_W+BZpHgqMc=G=DPCdrFeztnw@mail.gmail.com>
 <005401d438af$c7020e60$55062b20$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEZswaRLqjVaJT2+phLx==1QWQgdJhos1j9PHW9TXXe21w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <009b01d438c4$a1d45660$e57d0320$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace
Sent: Monday, August 20, 2018 12:01 PM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: Re: [ExI] physics question

 

>?Thanks.  By 'we' I assume you mean some far future people.  bill w

 

Ja, we as in whatever lifeforms humanity evolves into.

 

spike

 

 

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From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Mon Aug 20 20:32:51 2018
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2018 13:32:51 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Electoral College and 1177 BCE
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB5rUurTsUN1a8uzX1O36+XeiN7ZhmCUi7_YYj-Rfnzf4A@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Aug 20, 2018 at 10:06 AM,  John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

snip

>  There
> must be somebody on the list besides me that voted for Clinton but if there
> is he's yet to speak up.

I did.  But after the election, I realized to my horror that I had
predicted Trump to win in various EP papers.

The details are in old postings to this list, the short version is
that people are attracted to irrational leaders when they are under
economic stress.

BTW, been reading up on the collapse of the first global civilization
which happened around 1177 BCE.  See 1177 B.C.: The Year Civilization
Collapsed by Eric Cline.  If you want a preview,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRcu-ysocX4  I actually recommend
watching the video, reading the book and then watching the video
again.

There are a couple of things to take away from this that strongly
relate to the current situation.

And it might give you a feeling for what would happen after a
collapse.  I.e., the 1% are not likely to survive.

Keith


From danust2012 at gmail.com  Mon Aug 20 20:52:34 2018
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2018 13:52:34 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Electoral College and 1177 BCE
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB5rUurTsUN1a8uzX1O36+XeiN7ZhmCUi7_YYj-Rfnzf4A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB5rUurTsUN1a8uzX1O36+XeiN7ZhmCUi7_YYj-Rfnzf4A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6CEFF3BD-ADF1-43A7-BCA7-7FD16BE0BE1E@gmail.com>

On Mon, Aug 20, 2018 at 10:06 AM,  John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:
>> There
>> must be somebody on the list besides me that voted for Clinton but if there
>> is he's yet to speak up.

I didn?t vote. I?m a non-voter.

Regards,

Dan
   Sample my Kindle books at:
http://author.to/DanUst


From danust2012 at gmail.com  Mon Aug 20 21:01:18 2018
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2018 14:01:18 -0700
Subject: [ExI] CRACKPOTS
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYwDhjDAPi34jPC97TX+qzv23vKrGW-iGWpxBkBCvdstw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv1UOkNMuFke=D+ZyfVNR55qm30B5jEKWm9Vyqs84ee2hQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYwDhjDAPi34jPC97TX+qzv23vKrGW-iGWpxBkBCvdstw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6B5678DD-E909-4768-A1B9-6B8D2BF64D11@gmail.com>

On Aug 20, 2018, at 9:22 AM, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> John, if you want spiritualism and witchcraft explained, you need to read the first few chapters of The Golden Bough.  If the rain did not come after the rain god was invoked, the rain man was sacrificed and a new one selected.  The only evidence here was of the beliefs themselves.

I?m not sure that particular explanation originated with Frazer, but I?m wondering how much of that classic is considered valid by experts today. (I know it?s still immensely popular, but think it was considered outdated and even retrograde soon after publication.)

Regards,

Dan
   Sample my Kindle books at:
http://author.to/DanUst
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Mon Aug 20 21:23:52 2018
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2018 16:23:52 -0500
Subject: [ExI] CRACKPOTS
In-Reply-To: <6B5678DD-E909-4768-A1B9-6B8D2BF64D11@gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv1UOkNMuFke=D+ZyfVNR55qm30B5jEKWm9Vyqs84ee2hQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYwDhjDAPi34jPC97TX+qzv23vKrGW-iGWpxBkBCvdstw@mail.gmail.com>
 <6B5678DD-E909-4768-A1B9-6B8D2BF64D11@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYmwqXOtZPPV3Pq+XiygMKeyOd7WmU7vyXMHwSD=2CDig@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Aug 20, 2018 at 4:01 PM, Dan TheBookMan <danust2012 at gmail.com>
wrote:

> On Aug 20, 2018, at 9:22 AM, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> John, if you want spiritualism and witchcraft explained, you need to read
> the first few chapters of The Golden Bough.  If the rain did not come after
> the rain god was invoked, the rain man was sacrificed and a new one
> selected.  The only evidence here was of the beliefs themselves.
>
>
> I?m not sure that particular explanation originated with Frazer, but I?m
> wondering how much of that classic is considered valid by experts today. (I
> know it?s still immensely popular, but think it was considered outdated and
> even retrograde soon after publication.)
>
> Regards,
>
> Dan
>

OK, then go with Joseph Campbell - much the same thing.  I don't think
Frazer claimed much originality - just synthesis - rather humble in fact
when you read him.

For truly gigantic works like Frazer's and Darwin's, I would disregard any
criticisms for a fairly long period of time before forming opinions.  If
you have any evidence of how and where The Golden Bough is wrong, I'd be
glad to receive such.  Faintly negative and vague statements like yours are
worthless, don't you think?

Everybody gets criticized by somebody, eh?  Did university people invent
schadenfreude?  If not, they certainly got advanced degrees in it.

At the very worst, works like Frazer's are full of hypotheses for us to
explore.

bill w

>    Sample my Kindle books at:
>
> http://author.to/DanUst
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Mon Aug 20 21:25:53 2018
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2018 16:25:53 -0500
Subject: [ExI] physics question
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNS3w_QScyT6G=RrDNm_biSOTH=_yMZL4cHWrdy+o6qCoQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYn3Y=oPbJvkj8rmS=Ef_W+BZpHgqMc=G=DPCdrFeztnw@mail.gmail.com>
 <005401d438af$c7020e60$55062b20$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEZswaRLqjVaJT2+phLx==1QWQgdJhos1j9PHW9TXXe21w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNS3w_QScyT6G=RrDNm_biSOTH=_yMZL4cHWrdy+o6qCoQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEagU+R0XL7oWabAuOrbkNvz7+hq4whwQFaBwZ9vYNQAQg@mail.gmail.com>

No computer expert here, but I have been told that my Windows software
corrupts itself over a period of time, and so would up and downloads.
"Yeah, but we'll solve those problems....blah blah"

Well, good luck for being there to see it.

bill w

On Mon, Aug 20, 2018 at 3:13 PM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:

> Remember what list this is.  Some of those far future people could
> indeed be some of those currently participating in this list.
> On Mon, Aug 20, 2018 at 12:03 PM William Flynn Wallace
> <foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Thanks.  By 'we' I assume you mean some far future people.  bill w
> >
> > On Mon, Aug 20, 2018 at 1:01 PM, <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf
> Of William Flynn Wallace
> >> Sent: Monday, August 20, 2018 10:47 AM
> >> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> >> Subject: [ExI] physics question
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> There were 400 days in an earth year 620 million years ago.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> HUh??
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> bill w
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Ja.  The moon drags on the earth thru tides.  This gradually moves the
> moon to a higher orbit and slows the earth?s rotation (angular momentum is
> conserved.)  Eventually the earth and moon will be tide locked, so we might
> need to go to the other side of the planet to see it.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> spike
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> extropy-chat mailing list
> >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> >>
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > extropy-chat mailing list
> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Mon Aug 20 23:37:28 2018
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2018 19:37:28 -0400
Subject: [ExI] CRACKPOTS (was electoral college)
In-Reply-To: <CAKrqSyF0B1JyvXQWWLv0O+evH7KxbkiNycdn5dzaxdgyXcSQNA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv1UOkNMuFke=D+ZyfVNR55qm30B5jEKWm9Vyqs84ee2hQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYwDhjDAPi34jPC97TX+qzv23vKrGW-iGWpxBkBCvdstw@mail.gmail.com>
 <00ba01d438a6$b8cfcde0$2a6f69a0$@rainier66.com>
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Message-ID: <CAJPayv0RCO_bV_HO4PrbUvtrOd66d2L+H6cbAwhRq=342L=n8w@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Aug 20, 2018 at 1:03 PM, Will Steinberg <steinberg.will at gmail.com>
wrote:

1) Give me a list of exactly what constitutes the "psi phenomenon" and I
> will consider taking the bet.
>

I'm not picky, any of the usual drivel will do, telepathy, telekinesis,
remote viewing, fortune telling, faith healing, contacting the dead etc.


> >
> You could say that a brain always causes consciousness, however
> [...]
>


However that would probably be incorrect a brain is probably not conscious
when it is asleep or under anesthesia or dead. For as far back as I can
remember my working hypothesis has been that if something behaves
intelligently it is conscious, I can't prove its true and never will be
able to but true or not it allows me to function in human society.

>
> not only can you not prove any consciousness exists
>

i can prove my consciousness exists but the proof is available only to me.


> >
> but what you think stems from a narrow definition of consciousness.
>

I have no definition of consciousness at all but I have something better,
example, the first being myself..

>
> Your parents were conscious, no?
>

That would be my best guess, when they weren't busy sleeping or being dead,
although I can't prove I'm not the only conscious being in the universe.


> >
> It is not my fault that you narrowly define consciousness as a limited
> experience of human brains.
>

What are you talking about? If a robot acted as intelligently as you do the
evidence it is conscious would be as strong as the evidence you are. The
real "hard problem" is not about consciousness its about intelligence.

>
> we have equations to describe PRECISELY how the rock breaks the window.
> We have a near-total mathematical understanding of at least the macro-level
> events involved, and much of the micro.  Even down to the subatomic level,
> we can make good guesses about what kind of equations are needed to explain
> the actions of the rock on the window.  For conscious there are NO such
> equations postulated.
>

I know of all sorts of things that would change the physical state of a
window and I also know of all sorts of thinks that would change my
conscious state, things that would make me happy or sad or scared or angry.


> >
> We are able to infer the existence of many cosmological phenomena before
> actually observing them directly,
>


We never observe things directly. We receive information from our eyes, we
interpret that information as a rock moving at high speed and heading
toward a large plate glass window, we invent a theory that predicts that
very soon we will receive another sensation, this time from our ears, that
we will describe as the sound of breaking glass. Soon our prediction is
confirmed so the theory is successful; but we should remember that the
sound of broken glass is not broken glass, the look of broken glass is not
broken glass, the feel of broken glass is not broken glass. What "IS"
broken glass? It must have stable properties of some sort or I wouldn't be
able to identify it as a "thing". I don't know what those ultimate stable
properties are, but I know what they are not, they are not sense
sensations, they are not qualia. I have no idea what glass "IS". The sad
truth is, I can point to "things" but I don't know what a thing "IS" and
I'm not even sure that I know what "IS" is.

>>
>> either there is a infinite sequence of "what caused this" questions and
>> reality is like a infinitely nested Matryoshka doll with one doll always
>> inside another or the sequence terminates in a brute fact, there is after
>> all no law of logic that demands every event have a cause.
>>
>> I have a hunch in this case the brute fact is consciousness is the way
>> data feels like when it is being processed.
>>
>
>
> >
> We agree for the most part.  However it is not satisfactory to me to place
> consciousness as merely the way something in the universe feels, as this is
> a cop-out.



Then I don't understand what sort of answer would satisfy you that the
question has been answered. Either the iterated sequence of "what caused
that?" questions terminates or it doesn't, if it does then brute facts
exist, if it doesn't then there be a unknown cause and there is no
fundamental level of reality.

>
> We do not say:
> "The brute fact is gravity is the way massive objects act when they are
> proximal to one another"
>

Actually that is pretty close to what we do say, we say matter tells
spacetime how to curve and spacetime tells matter how to move. If we ever
find a quantum theory of gravity maybe we'll be able to say more, but then
again maybe not.


>
> 1) All known formulae regarding the actions of the universe have been
> created by consciousness.
>

> 2) All known evidence for the existence of the universe have been gathered
> by consciousness.
>

Being "known" already implies consciousness so oobviously that's true.


3) It is a paradox and logical fallacy to try and conceive of a universe
> existing but without consciousness.
>

The only consciousness you can prove to exist is your own. You did not
exist in the 19th century. Can you conceive of the 19th century?


> >
> Without consciousness, existence may as well not exist.
>

You have your opinion on what deserves to have the property of existence, I
have mine and who knows, maybe the universe has a opinion on that too. But
we were talking about psi so why are we even talking about this?  For the
sake of argument suppose telepathy, telekinesis and the entire lot turned
out to be true, how would that explain consciousness?


>
> IMAGINE if I said:
>
> The brute fact is, dark energy is the way the universe feels when it
> expands
>


It could have been called X, dark energy is just a name for the fact that
 the largest parts of the universe are accelerating away from each other.
If it turned out dark energy was a brute fact I'd be surprised, but not
very surprised.

>
> I hope you would call me out on the 'brute fact' that this statement is,
> what do you call it again?
>
> Oh right.  BULLSHIT.
>

My lawyer will soon be in contact with you on a matter involving copyright
infringement.

John k Clark
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From steinberg.will at gmail.com  Tue Aug 21 01:35:14 2018
From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2018 21:35:14 -0400
Subject: [ExI] CRACKPOTS (was electoral college)
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv0RCO_bV_HO4PrbUvtrOd66d2L+H6cbAwhRq=342L=n8w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv1UOkNMuFke=D+ZyfVNR55qm30B5jEKWm9Vyqs84ee2hQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYwDhjDAPi34jPC97TX+qzv23vKrGW-iGWpxBkBCvdstw@mail.gmail.com>
 <00ba01d438a6$b8cfcde0$2a6f69a0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAKrqSyF0B1JyvXQWWLv0O+evH7KxbkiNycdn5dzaxdgyXcSQNA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv0RCO_bV_HO4PrbUvtrOd66d2L+H6cbAwhRq=342L=n8w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKrqSyGkN3FoTN+Vr3_L60XN4GX=Tz5WTaQYRngizMzgrv8gyA@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Aug 20, 2018, 19:38 John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mon, Aug 20, 2018 at 1:03 PM, Will Steinberg <steinberg.will at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> 1) Give me a list of exactly what constitutes the "psi phenomenon" and I
>> will consider taking the bet.
>>
>
> I'm not picky, any of the usual drivel will do, telepathy, telekinesis,
> remote viewing, fortune telling, faith healing, contacting the dead etc.
>

Still too nebulous.  Most of those could be a lot of different things.

What I am getting at is that you are effectively stating nothing in your
annual post.  For example, what if people put out a series of complex and
specific chemical signals that could be interpreted as thoughts with good
resolution?  Not 'telepathy' I'd guess.  How about sensing some kind of
weak electromagnetic field?  Would that be telepathy?  Does it have to be
caused by some heretofore unknown force?

I don't believe in telepathy etc, but I don't not believe in it.

It relates to consciousnessness:

1) Because I think your stances on both are anti-curiosity.

2) Because in a way it doesn't seem that much more ridiculous to be able to
know someone else's thoughts as it is to know my own.  I'm not even sure
I'm in here in the first place!

To me, the fact that qualia are somehow associated with my CNS neurons is
mysterious enough that I think anything under the auspices of qualia (such
as seemingly remote connection of 2 minds) is only equally as improbable as
that--which is to say, neither are really considerations of probability,
which is why I don't think it makes sense to believe or not believe.

Telekinesis is much more of a stretch.

>
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From steinberg.will at gmail.com  Tue Aug 21 01:36:42 2018
From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2018 21:36:42 -0400
Subject: [ExI] CRACKPOTS (was electoral college)
In-Reply-To: <CAKrqSyGkN3FoTN+Vr3_L60XN4GX=Tz5WTaQYRngizMzgrv8gyA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv1UOkNMuFke=D+ZyfVNR55qm30B5jEKWm9Vyqs84ee2hQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYwDhjDAPi34jPC97TX+qzv23vKrGW-iGWpxBkBCvdstw@mail.gmail.com>
 <00ba01d438a6$b8cfcde0$2a6f69a0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAKrqSyF0B1JyvXQWWLv0O+evH7KxbkiNycdn5dzaxdgyXcSQNA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv0RCO_bV_HO4PrbUvtrOd66d2L+H6cbAwhRq=342L=n8w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyGkN3FoTN+Vr3_L60XN4GX=Tz5WTaQYRngizMzgrv8gyA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKrqSyEmNSUt9HGSmsyHCortGcwVD5GJhsfOrH3KrE5FTDyW2Q@mail.gmail.com>

Oof I haven't even figured out consciousness though, so I don't know about
"consciousnessness"...
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Tue Aug 21 02:28:07 2018
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2018 22:28:07 -0400
Subject: [ExI] CRACKPOTS (was electoral college)
In-Reply-To: <CAKrqSyGkN3FoTN+Vr3_L60XN4GX=Tz5WTaQYRngizMzgrv8gyA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv1UOkNMuFke=D+ZyfVNR55qm30B5jEKWm9Vyqs84ee2hQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYwDhjDAPi34jPC97TX+qzv23vKrGW-iGWpxBkBCvdstw@mail.gmail.com>
 <00ba01d438a6$b8cfcde0$2a6f69a0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAKrqSyF0B1JyvXQWWLv0O+evH7KxbkiNycdn5dzaxdgyXcSQNA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv0RCO_bV_HO4PrbUvtrOd66d2L+H6cbAwhRq=342L=n8w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyGkN3FoTN+Vr3_L60XN4GX=Tz5WTaQYRngizMzgrv8gyA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv1PAA+s9ADfgDjsHWFCVwEX3n_9L2bObu2B6o=vV+ZF5g@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Aug 20, 2018 at 9:35 PM, Will Steinberg <steinberg.will at gmail.com>
wrote:


> >
> What I am getting at is that you are effectively stating nothing in your
> annual post.
>

I am stating that absolutely positively ZERO evidence has been presented in
the previous year indicating that the psi phenomena exists, there haven't
even shown there is something that needs explaining much less explained it.
And we could have been having this exact same conversation in 1918 or even
1818 because ZERO process has been made sin
c
e that time. And that is just what you'd expect if the psi phenomena did
not exist.
>
> >
> Not 'telepathy' I'd guess.  How about sensing some kind of weak
> electromagnetic field?
>

I don't care how mind reading works just show me it exists.

>
> I think your stances on both are anti-curiosity.
>

I am not curious about things that don't exist. And every minute you spend
investigating spoon bending is a minute not spent investigating something
else more interesting that actually exists.

John K Clark



>
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From kgh1kgh2 at gmail.com  Tue Aug 21 12:37:24 2018
From: kgh1kgh2 at gmail.com (Kevin George Haskell)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2018 08:37:24 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Declining Life Expectancies in U.K & U.S
Message-ID: <655B0A2B-7DC5-415F-9ABB-B51D70308516@gmail.com>

Any thoughts as to why life expectancies in both the U.K and the U.S, across ethnic and sexual lines, have been reversing in recent years, especially considering that we spend higher percentages of our GDP on our medical systems than most nations or all in the world? This is Extropianism and Transhumanism in reverse.  Here's the article from 'The Guardian'. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/aug/19/bad-news-is-were-dying-earlier-in-britain-down-to-shit-life-syndrome



From sparge at gmail.com  Tue Aug 21 12:39:50 2018
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2018 08:39:50 -0400
Subject: [ExI] physics question
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEagU+R0XL7oWabAuOrbkNvz7+hq4whwQFaBwZ9vYNQAQg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYn3Y=oPbJvkj8rmS=Ef_W+BZpHgqMc=G=DPCdrFeztnw@mail.gmail.com>
 <005401d438af$c7020e60$55062b20$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEZswaRLqjVaJT2+phLx==1QWQgdJhos1j9PHW9TXXe21w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNS3w_QScyT6G=RrDNm_biSOTH=_yMZL4cHWrdy+o6qCoQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEagU+R0XL7oWabAuOrbkNvz7+hq4whwQFaBwZ9vYNQAQg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2c2U_5qSDPPL-R0p2jPeYSmCztPSni+wS98raZGL+FsXg@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Aug 20, 2018 at 5:32 PM William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
wrote:

> No computer expert here, but I have been told that my Windows software
> corrupts itself over a period of time, and so would up and downloads.
> "Yeah, but we'll solve those problems....blah blah"
>

No, software doesn't corrupt itself.

-Dave
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From sparge at gmail.com  Tue Aug 21 12:50:40 2018
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2018 08:50:40 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Declining Life Expectancies in U.K & U.S
In-Reply-To: <655B0A2B-7DC5-415F-9ABB-B51D70308516@gmail.com>
References: <655B0A2B-7DC5-415F-9ABB-B51D70308516@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2fek+p=ct440p1YWrhni+AF_HWNVBCy=KtZOKpuLCn6pA@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Aug 21, 2018 at 8:39 AM Kevin George Haskell <kgh1kgh2 at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Any thoughts as to why life expectancies in both the U.K and the U.S,
> across ethnic and sexual lines, have been reversing in recent years,
> especially considering that we spend higher percentages of our GDP on our
> medical systems than most nations or all in the world?
>

I think poor diets and poor healthcare are the primary contributors. The
official US dietary guidelines are crap, based on poor science and
healthcare has been corrupted by Big Pharma. Drugs don't make one healthy,

-Dave
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From giulio at gmail.com  Tue Aug 21 13:56:23 2018
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2018 15:56:23 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Things I have (sort of) changed my mind on (3): Tabloid
 transhumanism
Message-ID: <CAKTCJyevYeoA8fOdbgxp7WcCQhFUAgz=EwrYEeNCtqyePTUPOA@mail.gmail.com>

Things I have (sort of) changed my mind on (3): Tabloid transhumanism

I am a card carrying, unrepentant, in-your face transhumanist. But,
like in part one and two of this series of ?Things that I have (sort
of) changed my mind on,? I want to add some caveats. I AM a
transhumanist, BUT?

https://turingchurch.net/things-i-have-sort-of-changed-my-mind-on-3-tabloid-transhumanism-f11bebc7c67



From spike at rainier66.com  Tue Aug 21 14:19:12 2018
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2018 07:19:12 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Declining Life Expectancies in U.K & U.S
In-Reply-To: <655B0A2B-7DC5-415F-9ABB-B51D70308516@gmail.com>
References: <655B0A2B-7DC5-415F-9ABB-B51D70308516@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <007701d43959$ef51b910$cdf52b30$@rainier66.com>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of
Kevin George Haskell
Subject: [ExI] Declining Life Expectancies in U.K & U.S

Any thoughts as to why life expectancies in both the U.K and the U.S, across
ethnic and sexual lines, have been reversing in recent years, especially
considering that we spend higher percentages of our GDP on our medical
systems than most nations or all in the world? This is Extropianism and
Transhumanism in reverse.  Here's the article from 'The Guardian'.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/aug/19/bad-news-is-were-dying
-earlier-in-britain-down-to-shit-life-syndrome

_______________________________________________


I have long suspected it is in how they deal with young people getting
murdered and the opioid addiction rate.  We know that is crazy high.

What I want to see is life expectancies for good old-fashioned
perish-of-age-related-maladies life expectancy.  Filter out the deaths from
factors that don't apply to me, the stuff that orbits in a different galaxy
from the one I inhabit: gang wars, dope, and so forth, then what is left
over?

spike



From jasonresch at gmail.com  Tue Aug 21 15:28:57 2018
From: jasonresch at gmail.com (Jason Resch)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2018 10:28:57 -0500
Subject: [ExI] physics question
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2c2U_5qSDPPL-R0p2jPeYSmCztPSni+wS98raZGL+FsXg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYn3Y=oPbJvkj8rmS=Ef_W+BZpHgqMc=G=DPCdrFeztnw@mail.gmail.com>
 <005401d438af$c7020e60$55062b20$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEZswaRLqjVaJT2+phLx==1QWQgdJhos1j9PHW9TXXe21w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNS3w_QScyT6G=RrDNm_biSOTH=_yMZL4cHWrdy+o6qCoQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEagU+R0XL7oWabAuOrbkNvz7+hq4whwQFaBwZ9vYNQAQg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2c2U_5qSDPPL-R0p2jPeYSmCztPSni+wS98raZGL+FsXg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+BCJUhux5T18fypDuLTkYd7GwdRE2=R_oiS0+R_aiizj0+Siw@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Aug 21, 2018 at 7:46 AM Dave Sill <sparge at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mon, Aug 20, 2018 at 5:32 PM William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> No computer expert here, but I have been told that my Windows software
>> corrupts itself over a period of time, and so would up and downloads.
>> "Yeah, but we'll solve those problems....blah blah"
>>
>
> No, software doesn't corrupt itself.
>
>
But there is the notion of "bit rot", due to limits of hardware, every
physical device or component has a "MTTF" (Mean Time to Failure). This
applies to devices that store data.

There are technologies that use multiple components in parallel and
self-heal and recover data when one of those components fails (RAID,
Replication, Erasure Codes, etc.) (see: https://arxiv.org/abs/1310.4702 )

This does not eliminate the MTTF of the system, but can serve to make it
arbitrarily large, and using erasure codes this can be done with minimal
overhead.  The consequence of this, for transhumanists, or any entity for
that matter, is that life expectancy will be given by the MTTDL (mean time
to data loss) of the underlying storage mechanism responsible for storing
the bits that make up the mind.

Jason
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Tue Aug 21 16:13:53 2018
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2018 11:13:53 -0500
Subject: [ExI] CRACKPOTS (was electoral college)
In-Reply-To: <004301d438af$7655be30$63013a90$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAJPayv1UOkNMuFke=D+ZyfVNR55qm30B5jEKWm9Vyqs84ee2hQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYwDhjDAPi34jPC97TX+qzv23vKrGW-iGWpxBkBCvdstw@mail.gmail.com>
 <00ba01d438a6$b8cfcde0$2a6f69a0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEZzBAeYkJw69GFWDULcLMDsdvQ7oHT=-KLo4VCJCx1xZg@mail.gmail.com>
 <004301d438af$7655be30$63013a90$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZ5sXJCWoBWNSGii8rp-PMVHNE4gRsSUi1TiJpWavZCWQ@mail.gmail.com>

>? So we used to be very homogeneous and now we are about as diverse as we
could get.



These two comments are contradictory.  If diversity is good, then we have
fixed an incredible mess the world used to be in.  spike


The diversity consists of people who are still at the magic stage, people
of religion, and people who have left religion behind.  I think this
diversity hurts rather than helps anything.


Dogs - religion  1 - faith, 2 - prayer, sacrifice, other things done to get
the god's favor - I don't see dogs in #1 at all.  They have evolved to show
social behavior towards humans and we have rewarded it with food, shelter,
etc.  So, not religion.  And not superstition either.


for if everyone has a different religion, then any particular religion is
less dangerous than it would otherwise be.  spike


I don't get this.  If all people were of one religion it would seem to
facilitate interaction - now we have all kinds of wars and other negative
interactions between religions

It surprises me how many American young people are trending back toward
wearing a modern metal equivalent of a nose-bone.  spike

I have really wanted to do this, but never will - probably:  Going up to
girl with big earrings:  "You are right.  Those earrings really do hide the
incredible ugliness of your ears.  Without them people would run away as
soon as they see you.  And those rings on your nose do the same thing:
take away from the brute-like appearance of your nose - you really have a
great fashion sense."     And then just laugh and laugh.

In that same vein (or vain) - I get the Sunday NY Times and have concluded
that the funniest thing (no comics) in there is the supplement on fashion.
Page after page of just ridiculous prints, color clashes, 10 inch high
shoes and so on.  Thumb through it one day.  My theory is that the women's
designers hate women and try their darndest to make them look stupid.  They
know the women will go out and buy $10k pants and wear them to some soiree'
where they will meet other rich morons (I just hate to call women morons,
but hey - egalitarianism has no bounds) and compare clothes, which they
will then diss behind each others' backs.

Nah, I disagree.  Some form of religion, magic, superstition goes back to
way before a few kyrs I would suppose. spike

He isn't saying that magic and superstitions don't go way back - it's
religion that doesn't.  Of course that is impossible to prove.  His theory
is that there is a transition from magic to religion.  By the way, he says
that magic and science are alike:  a belief in the way the world works,
which is that one thing reliably follows another, and that to produce the
effect all you have to do it produce the cause.  However, in magic, they
often use illusory correlations - assuming that contiguity of things means
cause and effect.  Loud noises (thunder) precede rain, so make loud noises
and you will get rain (if not, the rain god is killed and replaced.  If
they are right, then it's not magic or illusion, it's science.    Many folk
remedies turn out to be scientific fact and not just superstition.
(Substition - believing in things that are absolutely true - Terry
Pratchett). What term do we have for not believing in things that are
true?  I need help here - all I can think of is Republicans.  or obliviots

bill w


On Mon, Aug 20, 2018 at 12:58 PM, <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On Behalf
> Of *William Flynn Wallace
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] CRACKPOTS (was electoral college)
>
>
>
> >?Hope you don't mind my starting at the top?
>
>
>
> Nah, we were strict on the protocol of not doing that in the long agos,
> but I never saw the harm in it, so I never enforced it.  Rules need
> justification and periodic rejustification.  Laws should come with
> expiration/renewal dates.
>
>
>
> >?Just a few thousand years ago, if Frazer is correct, we had no
> religions - just magic (totally different as he defined them).
>
>
>
> Nah, I disagree.  Some form of religion, magic, superstition goes back to
> way before a few kyrs I would suppose.  Even dogs have a kind of religion
> sorta.  They worship us, they try to do magic incantations by going thru
> some kinds of motions we like, and thus influence us to help them.  We
> might see that as an incantation or prayer.  Hey, it works.  We feed them,
> we house them, we?take them to the vet (see there, dog hell exists too.)
>
>
>
> >?What an incredible mess we have made of the world.
>
>
>
> >? So we used to be very homogeneous and now we are about as diverse as
> we could get.
>
>
>
> These two comments are contradictory.  If diversity is good, then we have
> fixed an incredible mess the world used to be in.
>
>
>
> I tend to see it that way, for if everyone has a different religion, then
> any particular religion is less dangerous than it would otherwise be.
> Morality would be loose but within reasonable legal guidelines (no letting
> your goat go out and steal cars, etc.)
>
>
>
> >?Now we have thousands of religions (see Oh Gods, from Atlantic Monthly
> a while back) and two new ones every day?
>
>
>
> There ya go, solving problems, two at a time.
>
>
>
> >?"Those folks over there, with their different religion, food, dance,
> etc.  They are the causes of our problems and we need to wipe them out, get
> their stuff and their women."
>
>
>
> See how far we have come?  Now we make our own stuff, and their women come
> over to us willingly and eagerly if our stuff is sufficiently cool and
> advanced.  Such a deal!
>
>
>
>
>
> >?FYI, goats and other animals have been brought to courts of law - been
> found not guilty, been found guilty.  In France!!  I wonder if all of this
> is just excuses to kill something and eat it?
>
>
>
> Ja perhaps.  I would still love to catch either of the Nigerian bastards
> who really did steal the car, put him in the tank, take the goat back to
> whoever they stole her from (who you know wouldn?t say anything for fear he
> would be accused of stealing the car) then when he finds her back, he still
> wouldn?t say anything because good chance the Nigerian goat farmer is also
> superstitious and isn?t entirely sure she didn?t do it.  He has seen her
> eyeballing his car and vaguely suspects she is going to sneak out and go
> for a joy ride.
>
>
>
>
>
> >?Is this the modern world?  Yeah, in some places.  Many have gone to the
> Moon and many wear bones in their noses.  LOL
>
>
>
> It surprises me how many American young people are trending back toward
> wearing a modern metal equivalent of a nose-bone.
>
>
>
>
>
>  >?  You gotta admit it's entertaining.  bill w
>
>
>
>
>
> Oh how I do.  I really do: I laugh so hard at us.  We humans are so crazy,
> dogs must be puzzled as all get out.  Maybe that?s why they do that
> sideways head thing.  They are thinking: whaaaat in the human-damn
> hellllllll????
>
>
>
> In our modern world we have all this leisure time, and all this access to
> hilarious news about goats stealing cars and the inherent goofiness of a
> world in which modern science and tech exists alongside ancient witchcraft,
> sheesh is it any wonder I sit around plotting how to play gags on the
> superstitious goofballs?  Ethics schmethics, the laughs we could get out of
> it would more than compensate for a guilty conscience, I would laugh my way
> thru my penance.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 20, 2018 at 11:56 AM, <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On Behalf
> Of *William Flynn Wallace
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] CRACKPOTS (was electoral college)
>
>
>
> >?John, if you want spiritualism and witchcraft explained? The only
> evidence here was of the beliefs themselves.
>
>
>
> >?Evidence has been sought ?
>
>
>
> HAH!  Unbeliever!  Here?s yer evidence:
>
>
>
> https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/nigeria/
> 4325377/Nigerian-police-hold-magic-goat-over-attempted-car-theft.html
>
>
>
> >?Hasn't been found and won't be, I say?  bill w
>
>
>
> Oh ye of little faith.
>
>
>
> You just wait pal, that goat might confess before it?s over.
>
>
>
> {8^D
>
>
>
> Oh man, wouldn?t it be cool, we could play some terrific gags.  We get the
> cell keys, somehow distract the constables, sneak in there with an actual
> (human) car thief who is under heavy sedation, doesn?t know what?s going
> on, switch them, get on out of the police station undetected with the goat,
> watch what happens next morning at breakfast after the thief sobers up.
> They would be talking about a car theft, which he knows he really did, but
> would be unable to explain how he turned himself into a goat and how the
> spell wore off.  Any skeptical locals would have their faith reinforced.
> Oh that would be a total hoot.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Tue Aug 21 16:14:25 2018
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2018 12:14:25 -0400
Subject: [ExI] physics question
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEagU+R0XL7oWabAuOrbkNvz7+hq4whwQFaBwZ9vYNQAQg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYn3Y=oPbJvkj8rmS=Ef_W+BZpHgqMc=G=DPCdrFeztnw@mail.gmail.com>
 <005401d438af$c7020e60$55062b20$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEZswaRLqjVaJT2+phLx==1QWQgdJhos1j9PHW9TXXe21w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNS3w_QScyT6G=RrDNm_biSOTH=_yMZL4cHWrdy+o6qCoQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEagU+R0XL7oWabAuOrbkNvz7+hq4whwQFaBwZ9vYNQAQg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv1Z=q4cKxLjgaXhVEnFAxMczWAJ4NzUoDTMROxB97cXoQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Aug 20, 2018 at 5:25 PM, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
wrote:

>
> No computer expert here, but I have been told that my Windows software
> corrupts itself over a period of time, and so would up and downloads.
>

Every time a computer copies a file there is a chance a error will be made,
however in 1948 Claud Shannon showed us a clever way to make the error rate
arbitrarily small by injecting a modest but carefully placed amount of
redundancy into the file. Without this brilliant insight there is no way
the Internet that we know and love today could exist.

 John K Clark




>
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Tue Aug 21 16:23:14 2018
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2018 11:23:14 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Declining Life Expectancies in U.K & U.S
In-Reply-To: <007701d43959$ef51b910$cdf52b30$@rainier66.com>
References: <655B0A2B-7DC5-415F-9ABB-B51D70308516@gmail.com>
 <007701d43959$ef51b910$cdf52b30$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbUjE3PgYXr_wBiSrzzaKb2ENA_n5zS_tzbTUgERUzRZA@mail.gmail.com>

Any thoughts as to why life expectancies in both the U.K and the U.S, across
ethnic and sexual lines, have been reversing in recent years, especially
considering that we spend higher percentages of our GDP on our medical
systems than most nations or all in the world?  Haskell

I think it's diet.  In Africa you can find people who look half their age,
have perfect teeth, and don't die of things a lot of us do.  They eat the
foods they have been eating for thousands of years, and when they switch to
a Western diet, they get the same obesity, diabetes, osteoporosis,
osteoarthritis and so on that bug us.   A lot of chemicals have been added
to our foods, from what is sprayed on crops to what companies add to cereal
and so on.  As I have said before, we are walking around with at least 50
chemicals in our bloodstreams that we were certainly not born with.

Add in the chemicals in the air, in our water, in the very dirt we walk on,
in the drugs we take, and you have an incredible mess that you could not
straighten out with thousands of years of scientific studies.  Every day
you see lawsuits based on chemicals added to plywood or sofa fabrics ad
infinitum.  Those Africans experience none of these.  I'll bet if we were
eating what we ate a thousand years ago, we'd be much better off.  Hence
the paleo diet, right?

bill w

On Tue, Aug 21, 2018 at 9:19 AM, <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:

>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of
> Kevin George Haskell
> Subject: [ExI] Declining Life Expectancies in U.K & U.S
>
> Any thoughts as to why life expectancies in both the U.K and the U.S,
> across
> ethnic and sexual lines, have been reversing in recent years, especially
> considering that we spend higher percentages of our GDP on our medical
> systems than most nations or all in the world? This is Extropianism and
> Transhumanism in reverse.  Here's the article from 'The Guardian'.
> https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/aug/19/bad-
> news-is-were-dying
> -earlier-in-britain-down-to-shit-life-syndrome
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> I have long suspected it is in how they deal with young people getting
> murdered and the opioid addiction rate.  We know that is crazy high.
>
> What I want to see is life expectancies for good old-fashioned
> perish-of-age-related-maladies life expectancy.  Filter out the deaths from
> factors that don't apply to me, the stuff that orbits in a different galaxy
> from the one I inhabit: gang wars, dope, and so forth, then what is left
> over?
>
> spike
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Tue Aug 21 16:26:55 2018
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2018 11:26:55 -0500
Subject: [ExI] physics question
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv1Z=q4cKxLjgaXhVEnFAxMczWAJ4NzUoDTMROxB97cXoQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYn3Y=oPbJvkj8rmS=Ef_W+BZpHgqMc=G=DPCdrFeztnw@mail.gmail.com>
 <005401d438af$c7020e60$55062b20$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEZswaRLqjVaJT2+phLx==1QWQgdJhos1j9PHW9TXXe21w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNS3w_QScyT6G=RrDNm_biSOTH=_yMZL4cHWrdy+o6qCoQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEagU+R0XL7oWabAuOrbkNvz7+hq4whwQFaBwZ9vYNQAQg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1Z=q4cKxLjgaXhVEnFAxMczWAJ4NzUoDTMROxB97cXoQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEaUd19Xv3wi7OT4k7-JQuSrr5tZ66rw11q1N72zSYKZbA@mail.gmail.com>

what does 'arbitrarily small' mean?  bill w

On Tue, Aug 21, 2018 at 11:14 AM, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Mon, Aug 20, 2018 at 5:25 PM, William Flynn Wallace <
> foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >
>> No computer expert here, but I have been told that my Windows software
>> corrupts itself over a period of time, and so would up and downloads.
>>
>
> Every time a computer copies a file there is a chance a error will be
> made, however in 1948 Claud Shannon showed us a clever way to make the
> error rate arbitrarily small by injecting a modest but carefully placed
> amount of redundancy into the file. Without this brilliant insight there is
> no way the Internet that we know and love today could exist.
>
>  John K Clark
>
>
>
>
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From steinberg.will at gmail.com  Tue Aug 21 16:33:12 2018
From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2018 12:33:12 -0400
Subject: [ExI] CRACKPOTS (was electoral college)
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEZ5sXJCWoBWNSGii8rp-PMVHNE4gRsSUi1TiJpWavZCWQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv1UOkNMuFke=D+ZyfVNR55qm30B5jEKWm9Vyqs84ee2hQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYwDhjDAPi34jPC97TX+qzv23vKrGW-iGWpxBkBCvdstw@mail.gmail.com>
 <00ba01d438a6$b8cfcde0$2a6f69a0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEZzBAeYkJw69GFWDULcLMDsdvQ7oHT=-KLo4VCJCx1xZg@mail.gmail.com>
 <004301d438af$7655be30$63013a90$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEZ5sXJCWoBWNSGii8rp-PMVHNE4gRsSUi1TiJpWavZCWQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKrqSyFf3h+MEqnAT9Epvy6sTyEWfsNkHE8KS2vCP03FBJ+W2A@mail.gmail.com>

What's wrong with a nose piercing?  That's tame.

Y'all come off as a bunch of reactionaries.  Do you really forget what it
was like to have older adults naysay the trends you were taking part in,
only to have those trends become the mainstream?

The world's greatest scientific geniuses, from Newton to Einstein, were
spiritual people.  Science itself emerged from philosophy.

Yet the scientific community today is often obsessed with believing their
models are reality, even though the only constant this whole time has been
the disproving of past models.

Maybe that's why you guys only produced a Hawking, not a Newton or
Einstein.  Thank god for the youth.
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From jasonresch at gmail.com  Tue Aug 21 16:46:29 2018
From: jasonresch at gmail.com (Jason Resch)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2018 11:46:29 -0500
Subject: [ExI] physics question
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEaUd19Xv3wi7OT4k7-JQuSrr5tZ66rw11q1N72zSYKZbA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYn3Y=oPbJvkj8rmS=Ef_W+BZpHgqMc=G=DPCdrFeztnw@mail.gmail.com>
 <005401d438af$c7020e60$55062b20$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEZswaRLqjVaJT2+phLx==1QWQgdJhos1j9PHW9TXXe21w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNS3w_QScyT6G=RrDNm_biSOTH=_yMZL4cHWrdy+o6qCoQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEagU+R0XL7oWabAuOrbkNvz7+hq4whwQFaBwZ9vYNQAQg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1Z=q4cKxLjgaXhVEnFAxMczWAJ4NzUoDTMROxB97cXoQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEaUd19Xv3wi7OT4k7-JQuSrr5tZ66rw11q1N72zSYKZbA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+BCJUhJPGQ7kxM8nciQ1R6WOJSqJb59U1JTxk8=G9xVySU7Og@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Aug 21, 2018 at 11:35 AM William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
wrote:

> what does 'arbitrarily small' mean?  bill w
>


Take whatever the error rate of copying a single bit is.  For a modern hard
drive, it is in the neighborhood of 10^-15.

Roughly speaking, for every 2N bits of redundancy applied to some string of
bits (which can be arbitrarily large), you can tolerate up to N corrupted
bits in that string.  So let's say you have a file that is 1,000,000 bits
long, the probability that no bits will be corrupt is:

(1 - 10^-15)^1,000,000 = 0.999999999

Which is already pretty high, but we can make it arbitrarily high.  For
example, by adding 2 redundant bits, we can ensure that even if 1 bit is
corrupt we can fix it, which means we would need not 1 corruption, but 2
corruptions.  Which would almost double the number of "nines" (an
exponential increase) for an incremental cost of 2 additional bits.  If we
want to tolerate 5 corruptions, this requires 10 extra bits, but now you
are into truly astronomically low unrecoverable error rates.

Jason


> On Tue, Aug 21, 2018 at 11:14 AM, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Aug 20, 2018 at 5:25 PM, William Flynn Wallace <
>> foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >
>>> No computer expert here, but I have been told that my Windows software
>>> corrupts itself over a period of time, and so would up and downloads.
>>>
>>
>> Every time a computer copies a file there is a chance a error will be
>> made, however in 1948 Claud Shannon showed us a clever way to make the
>> error rate arbitrarily small by injecting a modest but carefully placed
>> amount of redundancy into the file. Without this brilliant insight there is
>> no way the Internet that we know and love today could exist.
>>
>>  John K Clark
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Tue Aug 21 16:49:40 2018
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2018 09:49:40 -0700
Subject: [ExI] CRACKPOTS (was electoral college)
In-Reply-To: <CAKrqSyFf3h+MEqnAT9Epvy6sTyEWfsNkHE8KS2vCP03FBJ+W2A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv1UOkNMuFke=D+ZyfVNR55qm30B5jEKWm9Vyqs84ee2hQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYwDhjDAPi34jPC97TX+qzv23vKrGW-iGWpxBkBCvdstw@mail.gmail.com>
 <00ba01d438a6$b8cfcde0$2a6f69a0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEZzBAeYkJw69GFWDULcLMDsdvQ7oHT=-KLo4VCJCx1xZg@mail.gmail.com>
 <004301d438af$7655be30$63013a90$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEZ5sXJCWoBWNSGii8rp-PMVHNE4gRsSUi1TiJpWavZCWQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyFf3h+MEqnAT9Epvy6sTyEWfsNkHE8KS2vCP03FBJ+W2A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <011b01d4396e$f4cb0a80$de611f80$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Will Steinberg
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2018 9:33 AM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: Re: [ExI] CRACKPOTS (was electoral college)

 

What's wrong with a nose piercing?  That's tame?

 

 

We don?t know yet.  A plausible theory holds that piercings may create a portal for bacteria which do bad things in the long run, such as promote plaque formation in the arteries.  Since piercings are most popular with the young and didn?t come into vogue until a decade or two ago, particularly where guys have a dozen or more, we don?t yet know what?s wrong with nose piercing, but I will freely offer that it is a bad turn-off for those of us who are turned off by the whole notion (eeeewwww?)

 

spike

 

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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Tue Aug 21 17:06:28 2018
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2018 12:06:28 -0500
Subject: [ExI] physics question
In-Reply-To: <CA+BCJUhJPGQ7kxM8nciQ1R6WOJSqJb59U1JTxk8=G9xVySU7Og@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYn3Y=oPbJvkj8rmS=Ef_W+BZpHgqMc=G=DPCdrFeztnw@mail.gmail.com>
 <005401d438af$c7020e60$55062b20$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEZswaRLqjVaJT2+phLx==1QWQgdJhos1j9PHW9TXXe21w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNS3w_QScyT6G=RrDNm_biSOTH=_yMZL4cHWrdy+o6qCoQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEagU+R0XL7oWabAuOrbkNvz7+hq4whwQFaBwZ9vYNQAQg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1Z=q4cKxLjgaXhVEnFAxMczWAJ4NzUoDTMROxB97cXoQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEaUd19Xv3wi7OT4k7-JQuSrr5tZ66rw11q1N72zSYKZbA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+BCJUhJPGQ7kxM8nciQ1R6WOJSqJb59U1JTxk8=G9xVySU7Og@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYEm27P_nAHozAZQfSnLLGTrQ5+BKqiu-SgxPYqa+88TA@mail.gmail.com>

No No No!!  Too much information!!!  Stop!!! Sorry I asked - will not do so
again!!
bill w

what does 'arbitrarily small' mean?  bill w
>


Take whatever the error rate of copying a single bit is.  For a modern hard
drive, it is in the neighborhood of 10^-15.

Roughly speaking, for every 2N bits of redundancy applied to some string of
bits (which can be arbitrarily large), you can tolerate up to N corrupted
bits in that string.  So let's say you have a file that is 1,000,000 bits
long, the probability that no bits will be corrupt is:

(1 - 10^-15)^1,000,000 = 0.999999999

Which is already pretty high, but we can make it arbitrarily high.  For
example, by adding 2 redundant bits, we can ensure that even if 1 bit is
corrupt we can fix it, which means we would need not 1 corruption, but 2
corruptions.  Which would almost double the number of "nines" (an
exponential increase) for an incremental cost of 2 additional bits.  If we
want to tolerate 5 corruptions, this requires 10 extra bits, but now you
are into truly astronomically low unrecoverable error rates.

Jason


On Tue, Aug 21, 2018 at 11:46 AM, Jason Resch <jasonresch at gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Tue, Aug 21, 2018 at 11:35 AM William Flynn Wallace <
> foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> what does 'arbitrarily small' mean?  bill w
>>
>
>
> Take whatever the error rate of copying a single bit is.  For a modern
> hard drive, it is in the neighborhood of 10^-15.
>
> Roughly speaking, for every 2N bits of redundancy applied to some string
> of bits (which can be arbitrarily large), you can tolerate up to N
> corrupted bits in that string.  So let's say you have a file that is
> 1,000,000 bits long, the probability that no bits will be corrupt is:
>
> (1 - 10^-15)^1,000,000 = 0.999999999
>
> Which is already pretty high, but we can make it arbitrarily high.  For
> example, by adding 2 redundant bits, we can ensure that even if 1 bit is
> corrupt we can fix it, which means we would need not 1 corruption, but 2
> corruptions.  Which would almost double the number of "nines" (an
> exponential increase) for an incremental cost of 2 additional bits.  If we
> want to tolerate 5 corruptions, this requires 10 extra bits, but now you
> are into truly astronomically low unrecoverable error rates.
>
> Jason
>
>
>> On Tue, Aug 21, 2018 at 11:14 AM, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Aug 20, 2018 at 5:25 PM, William Flynn Wallace <
>>> foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> >
>>>> No computer expert here, but I have been told that my Windows software
>>>> corrupts itself over a period of time, and so would up and downloads.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Every time a computer copies a file there is a chance a error will be
>>> made, however in 1948 Claud Shannon showed us a clever way to make the
>>> error rate arbitrarily small by injecting a modest but carefully placed
>>> amount of redundancy into the file. Without this brilliant insight there is
>>> no way the Internet that we know and love today could exist.
>>>
>>>  John K Clark
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From sparge at gmail.com  Tue Aug 21 17:09:59 2018
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2018 13:09:59 -0400
Subject: [ExI] physics question
In-Reply-To: <CA+BCJUhux5T18fypDuLTkYd7GwdRE2=R_oiS0+R_aiizj0+Siw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYn3Y=oPbJvkj8rmS=Ef_W+BZpHgqMc=G=DPCdrFeztnw@mail.gmail.com>
 <005401d438af$c7020e60$55062b20$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEZswaRLqjVaJT2+phLx==1QWQgdJhos1j9PHW9TXXe21w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNS3w_QScyT6G=RrDNm_biSOTH=_yMZL4cHWrdy+o6qCoQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEagU+R0XL7oWabAuOrbkNvz7+hq4whwQFaBwZ9vYNQAQg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2c2U_5qSDPPL-R0p2jPeYSmCztPSni+wS98raZGL+FsXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+BCJUhux5T18fypDuLTkYd7GwdRE2=R_oiS0+R_aiizj0+Siw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2eKfpCU8Z91pR0Pm8x_eQnZpPsnLUgfkLfdfTXDsWNzyw@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Aug 21, 2018 at 11:31 AM Jason Resch <jasonresch at gmail.com> wrote:

>
> This does not eliminate the MTTF of the system, but can serve to make it
> arbitrarily large, and using erasure codes this can be done with minimal
> overhead.  The consequence of this, for transhumanists, or any entity for
> that matter, is that life expectancy will be given by the MTTDL (mean time
> to data loss) of the underlying storage mechanism responsible for storing
> the bits that make up the mind.
>

Yes, you also need redundancy at higher levels than "the system": you need
backups; preferably several of them, widely separated physically,
politically, economically, etc., in order to protect against not just
equipment failures but natural disasters, political and economic failures,
and deliberate malicious attacks.

-Dave
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Tue Aug 21 17:19:13 2018
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2018 12:19:13 -0500
Subject: [ExI] CRACKPOTS (was electoral college)
In-Reply-To: <CAKrqSyFf3h+MEqnAT9Epvy6sTyEWfsNkHE8KS2vCP03FBJ+W2A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv1UOkNMuFke=D+ZyfVNR55qm30B5jEKWm9Vyqs84ee2hQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYwDhjDAPi34jPC97TX+qzv23vKrGW-iGWpxBkBCvdstw@mail.gmail.com>
 <00ba01d438a6$b8cfcde0$2a6f69a0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEZzBAeYkJw69GFWDULcLMDsdvQ7oHT=-KLo4VCJCx1xZg@mail.gmail.com>
 <004301d438af$7655be30$63013a90$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEZ5sXJCWoBWNSGii8rp-PMVHNE4gRsSUi1TiJpWavZCWQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyFf3h+MEqnAT9Epvy6sTyEWfsNkHE8KS2vCP03FBJ+W2A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbUwwar8=V8_Qqbye2_=835UaAvOa6TiS6UgR2HGmV_7w@mail.gmail.com>

What's wrong with a nose piercing?  That's tame.

Y'all come off as a bunch of reactionaries.
will

Piercings don't disgust me at all.  Mostly I find them funny - different
generations have to do stupid things to show that they are not like the
oldies.  Yeah, we did stupid things too - swallowing goldfish, stuffing
phone booths, etc.  And some I find really sad - these people are often
desperate to be noticed and deemed different from the rest, and then they
just do what all the others are doing - conforming to nonconformity in the
same old ways.  Trying too hard.

I repeat my idea:  if you want to be, or at least seem to be, really
different, don't do anything to your body at all, like the women in the
Aveeno ads - no visible makeup at all - very attractive.  Or at the other
end:  asymmetrical facial hair.  And for women:  shaved heads.  But that's
not new.  Now I do have to admit a slight disgust with arm pit hair - leg
hair not so bad.  I'll have to think some more about what women just won't
do to attract people, but I think nobody will ever have an answer to that.
OK, women, now attack!

Spike, just stare at them for a few seconds and then shake your head
sadly.  They will love you.

bill w

On Tue, Aug 21, 2018 at 11:33 AM, Will Steinberg <steinberg.will at gmail.com>
wrote:

> What's wrong with a nose piercing?  That's tame.
>
> Y'all come off as a bunch of reactionaries.  Do you really forget what it
> was like to have older adults naysay the trends you were taking part in,
> only to have those trends become the mainstream?
>
> The world's greatest scientific geniuses, from Newton to Einstein, were
> spiritual people.  Science itself emerged from philosophy.
>
> Yet the scientific community today is often obsessed with believing their
> models are reality, even though the only constant this whole time has been
> the disproving of past models.
>
> Maybe that's why you guys only produced a Hawking, not a Newton or
> Einstein.  Thank god for the youth.
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From jasonresch at gmail.com  Tue Aug 21 17:29:49 2018
From: jasonresch at gmail.com (Jason Resch)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2018 12:29:49 -0500
Subject: [ExI] physics question
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2eKfpCU8Z91pR0Pm8x_eQnZpPsnLUgfkLfdfTXDsWNzyw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYn3Y=oPbJvkj8rmS=Ef_W+BZpHgqMc=G=DPCdrFeztnw@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CA+BCJUjrroxgtMMXemwPaPUu7qVxA0J+LFaFmNeREfKipYMuPQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Aug 21, 2018 at 12:20 PM Dave Sill <sparge at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tue, Aug 21, 2018 at 11:31 AM Jason Resch <jasonresch at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> This does not eliminate the MTTF of the system, but can serve to make it
>> arbitrarily large, and using erasure codes this can be done with minimal
>> overhead.  The consequence of this, for transhumanists, or any entity for
>> that matter, is that life expectancy will be given by the MTTDL (mean time
>> to data loss) of the underlying storage mechanism responsible for storing
>> the bits that make up the mind.
>>
>
> Yes, you also need redundancy at higher levels than "the system": you need
> backups; preferably several of them, widely separated physically,
> politically, economically, etc., in order to protect against not just
> equipment failures but natural disasters, political and economic failures,
> and deliberate malicious attacks.
>
>

True, but all of this does is expand the definition of the system. There is
still a MTTDL (for the multiple copies of the redundant systems) and it is
still finite.

Making faults statistically independent, helps a lot to make the increase
in MTTDL higher, but so long as we are on earth there are only 8 nines of
annual reliability for any system, planet killing asteroids strike about
once every hundred million years.  Depending on your calculus for nuclear
war's probability, we might be as low as 2-3 nines..

Jason
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Tue Aug 21 17:31:00 2018
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2018 13:31:00 -0400
Subject: [ExI] physics question
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEaUd19Xv3wi7OT4k7-JQuSrr5tZ66rw11q1N72zSYKZbA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYn3Y=oPbJvkj8rmS=Ef_W+BZpHgqMc=G=DPCdrFeztnw@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAJPayv2Y5zia--JuuK5Yd6oetRaWeZ4-aPcvegb9pfc6G4xMxw@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Aug 21, 2018 at 12:26 PM, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com
> wrote:

>
> what does 'arbitrarily small' mean?  bill w
>

State the amount of error you're willing to tolerate and by increasing the
file size by a small amount Shannon will tell you how to get a error rate
equal to or smaller than that .

John K Clark







>
> On Tue, Aug 21, 2018 at 11:14 AM, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Aug 20, 2018 at 5:25 PM, William Flynn Wallace <
>> foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >
>>> No computer expert here, but I have been told that my Windows software
>>> corrupts itself over a period of time, and so would up and downloads.
>>>
>>
>> Every time a computer copies a file there is a chance a error will be
>> made, however in 1948 Claud Shannon showed us a clever way to make the
>> error rate arbitrarily small by injecting a modest but carefully placed
>> amount of redundancy into the file. Without this brilliant insight there is
>> no way the Internet that we know and love today could exist.
>>
>>  John K Clark
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From steinberg.will at gmail.com  Tue Aug 21 17:54:14 2018
From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2018 13:54:14 -0400
Subject: [ExI] CRACKPOTS (was electoral college)
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEbUwwar8=V8_Qqbye2_=835UaAvOa6TiS6UgR2HGmV_7w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv1UOkNMuFke=D+ZyfVNR55qm30B5jEKWm9Vyqs84ee2hQ@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAKrqSyEJ1-phPTGbDMjzF=SJ74cQuiG9Rm1dsT2tm0J-r1KVXg@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 13:26 William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
wrote:

>
> I repeat my idea:  if you want to be, or at least seem to be, really
> different, don't do anything to your body at all, like the women in the
> Aveeno ads - no visible makeup at all - very attractive.
>

Something tells me that ads aren't the pinnacle of truth--such a thing as
CGI makeup now--unless it overtly says these pictures were not altered in
any way.

P.S. You're missing out re armpit hair--it's sexy!  Primal. ;)

>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Tue Aug 21 18:01:39 2018
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2018 11:01:39 -0700
Subject: [ExI] CRACKPOTS (was electoral college)
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEbUwwar8=V8_Qqbye2_=835UaAvOa6TiS6UgR2HGmV_7w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv1UOkNMuFke=D+ZyfVNR55qm30B5jEKWm9Vyqs84ee2hQ@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <006101d43979$02ad87e0$080897a0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2018 10:19 AM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: Re: [ExI] CRACKPOTS (was electoral college)

 

>>?What's wrong with a nose piercing?  That's tame.

 

>>?Y'all come off as a bunch of reactionaries.

will

 

>?  Yeah, we did stupid things too - swallowing goldfish, stuffing phone booths, etc? BillW

 

Hey, I resemble that remark!  What?s stupid about stuffing a phone booth?  That?s how kids used to have sex back in the days when pornography came from National Geographic and birth control pills hadn?t yet gotten wide distribution.  We would see how many of us we could cram in there, and of course you would be pressed tightly up against several young beauties with boobs mashed in your face.  I fail to see what is stupid about that.  

 

The goldfish thing, well, think of it as proto-sushi.  OK that one was pretty stupid, but the phone booth thing was cool.  I would do it again now, if I could find a phone booth and if my high school class reunion attendees could ever get ourselves back out of there again without having to call the local fire department extricate us with the Jaws of Life (we aren?t as flexible as we were back then (and the boobs have been relocated southward (so the whole game isn?t quite as compelling as it was back then (Will please tell us you do know the definition of the term phone booth.))))

 

>?Spike, just stare at them for a few seconds and then shake your head sadly.  They will love you.  bill w

 

Ja, I have no real heartburn with piercings, assuming they pierce their damn selves and not me.  If poking sharp metal things thru your skin has bad consequences, they likely aren?t going to show up for a while, and even then, perhaps we will find a solution.  But I have a lotta lotta heartburn with all the new dope that these people have access to however.  That really worries me and causes bad consequences indirectly to me.  I have been seeing a lot of local addicts staggering around in the past coupla, and I feel sorry for how it is being treated: the constables give them a one-way bus ticket into San Francisco.  Then San Francisco sees them coming every day and comes up with the most stunningly illogical response I can imagine: Hey!  Let?s give them free housing, free needles and free heroine!  

 

Then they don?t understand why the problem is getting bigger faster.  Hell the locals here don?t even need to give them bus rides: the dopers come stampeding in.  Now if you ever visit the city, you need to watch carefully where you sit.  Before when needles were shared, they were valuable, so the dopers cleaned them and kept them, and gave each other HIV and hepC.  Now they are so civilized, the give the needles away, so the dopers use them once, toss them, give us HIV and hepC.

 

This observation is what caused me a squirmy acknowledgement of a previous poster?s comments on a very plausible explanation of Fermi?s Paradox: technology evolves better and better types of dope, and this eventually wrecks every technologically-enabled society?s motive to grow and advance.  

 

spike

 

 

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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Tue Aug 21 18:43:41 2018
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2018 13:43:41 -0500
Subject: [ExI] CRACKPOTS (was electoral college)
In-Reply-To: <CAKrqSyEJ1-phPTGbDMjzF=SJ74cQuiG9Rm1dsT2tm0J-r1KVXg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv1UOkNMuFke=D+ZyfVNR55qm30B5jEKWm9Vyqs84ee2hQ@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYD4rYdFU02Aw3TS4BOcC-P7Pf6NXpDg88+HrtZ+w9KPg@mail.gmail.com>

P.S. You're missing out re armpit hair--it's sexy!  Primal. ;)

What's next, gorilla suits?  Fish oil perfumes?  I am perfectly happy with
unadorned women who smell like women, even if it is a little fishy.

You want primal?  Deal with the basic smells.  So for you the axillary hair
is just a come-on to get you to stick your nose in there.  Pheromone city!
Might wake up a part of your brain you've never used.

bill w

On Tue, Aug 21, 2018 at 12:54 PM, Will Steinberg <steinberg.will at gmail.com>
wrote:

>
>
> On Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 13:26 William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>>
>> I repeat my idea:  if you want to be, or at least seem to be, really
>> different, don't do anything to your body at all, like the women in the
>> Aveeno ads - no visible makeup at all - very attractive.
>>
>
> Something tells me that ads aren't the pinnacle of truth--such a thing as
> CGI makeup now--unless it overtly says these pictures were not altered in
> any way.
>
> P.S. You're missing out re armpit hair--it's sexy!  Primal. ;)
>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From msd001 at gmail.com  Tue Aug 21 18:54:23 2018
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2018 14:54:23 -0400
Subject: [ExI] physics question
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv2Y5zia--JuuK5Yd6oetRaWeZ4-aPcvegb9pfc6G4xMxw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYn3Y=oPbJvkj8rmS=Ef_W+BZpHgqMc=G=DPCdrFeztnw@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAOJFdbK-g8HViavObnFDYvChbu0=jU1Pnxo7zZFWx+Qrg1eF7w@mail.gmail.com>

What's the error rate for the biological substrate humans that nature gave
us for a starting/reference point?
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From danust2012 at gmail.com  Tue Aug 21 19:29:04 2018
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2018 12:29:04 -0700
Subject: [ExI] physics question
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEaUd19Xv3wi7OT4k7-JQuSrr5tZ66rw11q1N72zSYKZbA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYn3Y=oPbJvkj8rmS=Ef_W+BZpHgqMc=G=DPCdrFeztnw@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <08D94152-9D10-4D24-8FC1-5F152DBA6B57@gmail.com>

On Aug 21, 2018, at 9:26 AM, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> what does 'arbitrarily small' mean?  bill w

It means as small as one pleases. This usually as taken to mean when you have some number x in your equation you can make x ever smaller and keep analyzing the results. Check out this, for instance:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/(?,_?)-definition_of_limit

Regards,

Dan
   Sample my Kindle books at:
http://author.to/DanUst
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Tue Aug 21 20:11:24 2018
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2018 16:11:24 -0400
Subject: [ExI] physics question
In-Reply-To: <CAOJFdbK-g8HViavObnFDYvChbu0=jU1Pnxo7zZFWx+Qrg1eF7w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYn3Y=oPbJvkj8rmS=Ef_W+BZpHgqMc=G=DPCdrFeztnw@mail.gmail.com>
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On Tue, Aug 21, 2018 at 2:54 PM, Mike Dougherty <msd001 at gmail.com> wrote:

>
> What's the error rate for the biological substrate humans that nature gave
> us for a starting/reference point?
>

In DNA replication one error in 10 billion base pairs.

John K Clark
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From spike at rainier66.com  Tue Aug 21 20:14:34 2018
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2018 13:14:34 -0700
Subject: [ExI] physics question
In-Reply-To: <CAOJFdbK-g8HViavObnFDYvChbu0=jU1Pnxo7zZFWx+Qrg1eF7w@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CAOJFdbK-g8HViavObnFDYvChbu0=jU1Pnxo7zZFWx+Qrg1eF7w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <007a01d4398b$94746380$bd5d2a80$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Mike Dougherty
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2018 11:54 AM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: Re: [ExI] physics question

 

 

 

 

 

>?What's the error rate for the biological substrate humans that nature gave us for a starting/reference point?

 

 

 

 

I can think of a few errors my own biological substrate made.  But to get the error rate, I need to know the total number of questions.

 

spike

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From atymes at gmail.com  Tue Aug 21 20:18:35 2018
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2018 13:18:35 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Things I have (sort of) changed my mind on (3): Tabloid
 transhumanism
In-Reply-To: <CAKTCJyevYeoA8fOdbgxp7WcCQhFUAgz=EwrYEeNCtqyePTUPOA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKTCJyevYeoA8fOdbgxp7WcCQhFUAgz=EwrYEeNCtqyePTUPOA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNRZC1S6d8LrAahjwOC7PaOrotJNKOkGiSJjMeWgKFv5Rw@mail.gmail.com>

Which begs the questions:

1) What can do we do today, to make sure this future will eventually come about?

2) Short of the wildly optimistic projections for Singularity
tomorrow, what parts of that can we realistically implement in the
short term?  Can each of us carve off pieces to accomplish, so that
our collective works will improve humanity, bring the long-distant
Singularity much closer to today, and reap substantial personal
rewards in the near term?

I know my answers, especially to the latter.  (CubeCab is the
currently most visible part.)  But what about the rest of you?  I know
some of you have similar answers.
On Tue, Aug 21, 2018 at 6:58 AM Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Things I have (sort of) changed my mind on (3): Tabloid transhumanism
>
> I am a card carrying, unrepentant, in-your face transhumanist. But,
> like in part one and two of this series of ?Things that I have (sort
> of) changed my mind on,? I want to add some caveats. I AM a
> transhumanist, BUT?
>
> https://turingchurch.net/things-i-have-sort-of-changed-my-mind-on-3-tabloid-transhumanism-f11bebc7c67
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat



From foozler83 at gmail.com  Tue Aug 21 20:36:27 2018
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2018 15:36:27 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Things I have (sort of) changed my mind on (3): Tabloid
 transhumanism
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNRZC1S6d8LrAahjwOC7PaOrotJNKOkGiSJjMeWgKFv5Rw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKTCJyevYeoA8fOdbgxp7WcCQhFUAgz=EwrYEeNCtqyePTUPOA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRZC1S6d8LrAahjwOC7PaOrotJNKOkGiSJjMeWgKFv5Rw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEauMeG9GXZS1aCyK0UwqMw0E3yyEOd+3CCU4300Kuc_yg@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Aug 21, 2018 at 3:26 PM Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:

> Which begs the questions:
>
> 1) What can do we do today, to make sure this future will eventually come
> about?
>
> 2) Short of the wildly optimistic projections for Singularity
> tomorrow, what parts of that can we realistically implement in the
> short term?  Can each of us carve off pieces to accomplish, so that
> our collective works will improve humanity, bring the long-distant
> Singularity much closer to today, and reap substantial personal
> rewards in the near term?
>
> I know my answers, especially to the latter.  (CubeCab is the
> currently most visible part.)  But what about the rest of you?  I know
> some of you have similar answers.
>
> I have little idea about what the Singularity might bring about for
humanity.  I am full of ideas about advances in biology that could improve
humanity incredibly.  Few of us seem that interested in genetics and its
role in creating the transhumans we desire.  But that's the way it's going
to happen.  AI is not going to create people - could help with the
computations, but ideas about changing our DNA will have to come from
people.

bill w


> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > extropy-chat mailing list
> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Tue Aug 21 21:05:37 2018
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2018 17:05:37 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Things I have (sort of) changed my mind on (3): Tabloid
 transhumanism
In-Reply-To: <CAKTCJyevYeoA8fOdbgxp7WcCQhFUAgz=EwrYEeNCtqyePTUPOA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKTCJyevYeoA8fOdbgxp7WcCQhFUAgz=EwrYEeNCtqyePTUPOA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv0_113WOYC3_=DidD3NhVb6MyWT6s6WXDoM+sq30T2dgA@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Aug 21, 2018  Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:

>
>  I don?t think the Singularity is near.


I think the date of the Singularity is unknown, if it were predictable it
wouldn't be a Singularity. If it happens a thousand years from now in 999
years it will still seem to be a long way off. Whenever it comes it will be
a big surprise.

>
> if you are alive now, your mind will not be uploaded.


Have you taken liquid nitrogen into account? If it works (a big if I admit)
it won't matter if it takes a million years, subjectively the wait will
seem instantaneous.

John K Clark
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From atymes at gmail.com  Tue Aug 21 21:12:23 2018
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2018 14:12:23 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Things I have (sort of) changed my mind on (3): Tabloid
 transhumanism
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEauMeG9GXZS1aCyK0UwqMw0E3yyEOd+3CCU4300Kuc_yg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKTCJyevYeoA8fOdbgxp7WcCQhFUAgz=EwrYEeNCtqyePTUPOA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRZC1S6d8LrAahjwOC7PaOrotJNKOkGiSJjMeWgKFv5Rw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEauMeG9GXZS1aCyK0UwqMw0E3yyEOd+3CCU4300Kuc_yg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNTADPqWTMvMjhA5EG2BdVSy7tagGCQGhOyyKoYZF1G9kw@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Aug 21, 2018 at 1:38 PM William Flynn Wallace
<foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
> I am full of ideas about advances in biology that could improve humanity incredibly.  Few of us seem that interested in genetics and its role in creating the transhumans we desire.  But that's the way it's going to happen.

How would you implement those changes?


From msd001 at gmail.com  Tue Aug 21 21:19:15 2018
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2018 17:19:15 -0400
Subject: [ExI] physics question
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv1qYADrFpv_pkHyO2QQCUa7c7Xg0cjRxDDJd6EzyionkA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYn3Y=oPbJvkj8rmS=Ef_W+BZpHgqMc=G=DPCdrFeztnw@mail.gmail.com>
 <005401d438af$c7020e60$55062b20$@rainier66.com>
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 <CAO+xQEagU+R0XL7oWabAuOrbkNvz7+hq4whwQFaBwZ9vYNQAQg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1Z=q4cKxLjgaXhVEnFAxMczWAJ4NzUoDTMROxB97cXoQ@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CAJPayv1qYADrFpv_pkHyO2QQCUa7c7Xg0cjRxDDJd6EzyionkA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOJFdbJO_1XUAKdRZygWTzYUPyi7Y9hAfzJHBwBU7pUeRj=RQQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 4:13 PM John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tue, Aug 21, 2018 at 2:54 PM, Mike Dougherty <msd001 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >
>> What's the error rate for the biological substrate humans that nature
>> gave us for a starting/reference point?
>>
>
> In DNA replication one error in 10 billion base pairs.
>
>
In the context of transhuman existence measured in gigayears, I was
imagining the error rate in the connectome rather than genome. That's an
interesting metric though.


>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Tue Aug 21 22:05:20 2018
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2018 17:05:20 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Things I have (sort of) changed my mind on (3): Tabloid
 transhumanism
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNTADPqWTMvMjhA5EG2BdVSy7tagGCQGhOyyKoYZF1G9kw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKTCJyevYeoA8fOdbgxp7WcCQhFUAgz=EwrYEeNCtqyePTUPOA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRZC1S6d8LrAahjwOC7PaOrotJNKOkGiSJjMeWgKFv5Rw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEauMeG9GXZS1aCyK0UwqMw0E3yyEOd+3CCU4300Kuc_yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNTADPqWTMvMjhA5EG2BdVSy7tagGCQGhOyyKoYZF1G9kw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbgjK4-QkAwGKqY9Tw5jC6=1Z7a-W-tUFgt7zwiWaiXNg@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Aug 21, 2018 at 4:14 PM Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tue, Aug 21, 2018 at 1:38 PM William Flynn Wallace
> <foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > I am full of ideas about advances in biology that could improve humanity
> incredibly.  Few of us seem that interested in genetics and its role in
> creating the transhumans we desire.  But that's the way it's going to
> happen.
>
> How would you implement those changes?
>

It is going to be very difficult to get people to approve of designer
babies, especially when splicing in genes from other people (or whatever
genes can be created in labs from scratch) can be done.  Religion will, of
course, disapprove.  But if we really want transhumans, gene editing and
all the tools they have and will have, will be able to produce whatever
genes are capable of.  I think that we should start with eliminating
susceptibility to diseases.  I don't think that will get much flak.
Improving IQ will.  Choosing the personality ditto.

It really has not hit the fan yet as to what can be done in the near
future, or even now.  But if improving babies is the outcome, I think it
will go on somewhere before it goes on here, but it's inevitable - mothers
want perfect babies and some will be able to pay for them and will.  More
inequality in society may not be such a good idea, but what would you do if
something affordable could add 20 points to your baby's IQ?

A no-brainer.  And the poor get left behind in yet another way.

bill w

> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From jasonresch at gmail.com  Tue Aug 21 22:06:55 2018
From: jasonresch at gmail.com (Jason Resch)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2018 17:06:55 -0500
Subject: [ExI] physics question
In-Reply-To: <CAOJFdbJO_1XUAKdRZygWTzYUPyi7Y9hAfzJHBwBU7pUeRj=RQQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYn3Y=oPbJvkj8rmS=Ef_W+BZpHgqMc=G=DPCdrFeztnw@mail.gmail.com>
 <005401d438af$c7020e60$55062b20$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEZswaRLqjVaJT2+phLx==1QWQgdJhos1j9PHW9TXXe21w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNS3w_QScyT6G=RrDNm_biSOTH=_yMZL4cHWrdy+o6qCoQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEagU+R0XL7oWabAuOrbkNvz7+hq4whwQFaBwZ9vYNQAQg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1Z=q4cKxLjgaXhVEnFAxMczWAJ4NzUoDTMROxB97cXoQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEaUd19Xv3wi7OT4k7-JQuSrr5tZ66rw11q1N72zSYKZbA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv2Y5zia--JuuK5Yd6oetRaWeZ4-aPcvegb9pfc6G4xMxw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOJFdbK-g8HViavObnFDYvChbu0=jU1Pnxo7zZFWx+Qrg1eF7w@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CAOJFdbJO_1XUAKdRZygWTzYUPyi7Y9hAfzJHBwBU7pUeRj=RQQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+BCJUiWAAMXdYXRLnycNeeqr1QuCXybw4WKzvE73bWZ9o0bgw@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Aug 21, 2018 at 4:20 PM Mike Dougherty <msd001 at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 4:13 PM John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, Aug 21, 2018 at 2:54 PM, Mike Dougherty <msd001 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >
>>> What's the error rate for the biological substrate humans that nature
>>> gave us for a starting/reference point?
>>>
>>
>> In DNA replication one error in 10 billion base pairs.
>>
>>
> In the context of transhuman existence measured in gigayears, I was
> imagining the error rate in the connectome rather than genome. That's an
> interesting metric though.
>
>
>>

For a given data storage component, there are two characteristics of its
reliability:

1. *R* = the time to repair a failed memory component, and
2. *F* = the average time to time to failure of the memory component

In a redundant system composed of *N* such components, where *M* are
redundant/extra components beyond the *K* components needed to store the
data (N = K + M), the system reliability (in terms of mean time to
irrecoverable data loss) is given by the formula:


       F / (K * (N choose K)) * (F / R)^(N-K)

Increasing the number of extra components (M) e.g. increasing (N-K) serves
to increase the exponent in the formula.  The base of this exponent is the
ratio of (F / R), either decreasing repair time, or increasing the mean
time between component failures is equally important.

For a replication based system, K=1, while N=replica count.  For erasure
coded systems, K and N are arbitrary, so long as 1 <= K <= N.

To give some common examples for modern data storage systems, a hard drive
with a 4% Annual Failure Rate has F = 25 years.  Rebuilding a drive that
has failed requires replacement of the drive and reconstructing its lost
data. The time for this is based on the throughput of the drive, the time
to read K other drives, and reconstruct the data in relation to how large
the drive is.  For drives around 8 TB with 200 MB/s throughput, this is
minimally 11 hours, but more typically 3 - 5 days (since the other drives
are busy serving normal reads at the same time).

What this means is that a single drive system with no redundancy has a mean
time to data loss of:

*25 years / (1 * (1 choose 1)) * (25 years / 3 days)^(1 - 1) = 25 years / 1
* (25 years / 3 days)^0
<https://www.google.com/search?ei=KIh8W8GjOcrIjwTYsq_wCw&q=25+years+%2F+%281+*+%281+choose+1%29%29+*+%2825+years+%2F+3+days%29%5E%281+-+1%29&oq=25+years+%2F+%281+*+%281+choose+1%29%29+*+%2825+years+%2F+3+days%29%5E%281+-+1%29&gs_l=psy-ab.3...155202.157531.0.157763.4.4.0.0.0.0.105.231.2j1.3.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..1.0.0....0.f373FrMpd7w>
= 25 years*

A system of two copies of drives, has a mean time to data loss of:

*25 years / (1 * (2 choose 1)) * (25 years / 3 days)^(2 - 1) = (25 years /
2) * (25 years / 3 days)^1
<https://www.google.com/search?q=25+years+%2F+(1+*+(2+choose+1))+*+(25+years+%2F+3+days)%5E(2+-+1)&oq=25+years+%2F+(1+*+(2+choose+1))+*+(25+years+%2F+3+days)%5E(2+-+1)>
= 38,046 years*

A system of 3 drives, with 2 redundancies (e.g. RAID 6), has a mean time to
data loss of:

*25 years / (3 * (5 choose 3)) * (25 years / 3 days)^(5 - 3) = (25 years /
30) * (25 years / 3 days)^2
<https://www.google.com/search?ei=yoh8W_T_Joy-jwTkuKGgDQ&q=25+years+%2F+%283+*+%285+choose+3%29%29+*+%2825+years+%2F+3+days%29%5E%285+-+3%29&oq=25+years+%2F+%283+*+%285+choose+3%29%29+*+%2825+years+%2F+3+days%29%5E%285+-+3%29&gs_l=psy-ab.3...90563.90563.0.91023.1.1.0.0.0.0.132.132.0j1.1.0....0...1c.2.64.psy-ab..0.0.0....0.kujbr_lk51A>
= 7,720,015 years*


Note, however, that a mean time to data loss (MTTDL) does not mean there
will be no failure for that period of time.  It is a statistical
measurement with a very specific meaning. If the MTTDL were 25 years, it
means that if you had 25 such systems, and ran all 25 for 1 year, you would
expect one of them to fail.  Failures are random and can happen at any
time.  To estimate the probability of a failure occuring over a given
period of time, you use the following formula:

Probability of Data Loss = 1 - e^(-time / MTTDL)

So the two-copy system above, with a MTTDL of 38,000 years would have:

Over 1 year: 1 - e^(-1 year/38,000 years)
<https://www.google.com/search?ei=Zop8W5erMKzbjwTs7qXQBg&q=1+-+e%5E%28-1+year%2F38%2C000+years%29+in+percent&oq=1+-+e%5E%28-1+year%2F38%2C000+years%29+in+percent&gs_l=psy-ab.3..33i160k1l3.61505.64041.0.64159.13.12.0.0.0.0.179.1071.3j5.8.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..5.5.796...33i21k1.0.GrFAasEfoYk>
= 0.002631544% change of data loss

Over 10 years:  1 - e^(-1 year/38,000 years)
<https://www.google.com/search?ei=p4p8W43IMMnVjwSSvrGADA&q=1+-+e%5E%28-10+years%2F38%2C000+years%29+in+percent&oq=1+-+e%5E%28-10+years%2F38%2C000+years%29+in+percent&gs_l=psy-ab.3...42584.43805.0.44204.2.2.0.0.0.0.89.160.2.2.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..0.0.0....0.xVyeNsZ3ESY>
= 0.0263123272%
change of data loss

Over 500,000 years:  1 - e^(-1 year/38,000 years) <http://1 - e^(-500000
years/38,000 years) in percent> = 99.999807% change of data loss


Extropians, if they are to have lifetimes measured in billions of years,
need to design substrates with MTTDL's many orders of magnitude greater
than a billion years, to have a high chance of surviving that long.  Even
then, there is still no guarantee that you won't get unlucky and suffer a
data loss event before MTTDL has elapsed, in fact, 63% of the time this
happens (a failure before MTTDL time has passed). This is given by (1 -
e^(-1/1)) ~= 63%.

Fortunately, it is not hard to make MTTDL obscenely high.  For example,
setting K = 100 and N = 200.  Using erasure codes, this only has a the
overhead of 2 copies, but results in a system that can tolerate 100
concurrent faults.  With hard drives with the parameters given above, you
gain about a 100X improvement in MTTDL for each increase of M by 1.  A
system with M = 100 based on components with similar failure and rebuild
times as hard drives could have a MTTDL on the order of 1 followed by 200
zeros.

Jason
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From atymes at gmail.com  Tue Aug 21 22:18:45 2018
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2018 15:18:45 -0700
Subject: [ExI] physics question
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2c2U_5qSDPPL-R0p2jPeYSmCztPSni+wS98raZGL+FsXg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYn3Y=oPbJvkj8rmS=Ef_W+BZpHgqMc=G=DPCdrFeztnw@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CALAdGNTmiXkECmbBz3kB+++Yprb9wjw0pZ2CD1gjCUrg6VOqww@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Aug 21, 2018 at 5:46 AM Dave Sill <sparge at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Aug 20, 2018 at 5:32 PM William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> No computer expert here, but I have been told that my Windows software corrupts itself over a period of time, and so would up and downloads.  "Yeah, but we'll solve those problems....blah blah"
>
> No, software doesn't corrupt itself.

Unless it downloads not-always-well-thought-through patches which can,
if things do not go well, reduce functionality over time.


From atymes at gmail.com  Tue Aug 21 22:19:46 2018
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2018 15:19:46 -0700
Subject: [ExI] physics question
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYEm27P_nAHozAZQfSnLLGTrQ5+BKqiu-SgxPYqa+88TA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYn3Y=oPbJvkj8rmS=Ef_W+BZpHgqMc=G=DPCdrFeztnw@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CALAdGNTGqOZw+7ituBt2VgiEzn16j9G+JwuLYGD0CBNskfEqPg@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Aug 21, 2018 at 10:08 AM William Flynn Wallace
<foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
> No No No!!  Too much information!!!  Stop!!! Sorry I asked - will not do so again!!

We can add arbitrarily large amounts of information on this topic.  :P


From atymes at gmail.com  Tue Aug 21 22:23:47 2018
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2018 15:23:47 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Things I have (sort of) changed my mind on (3): Tabloid
 transhumanism
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEbgjK4-QkAwGKqY9Tw5jC6=1Z7a-W-tUFgt7zwiWaiXNg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKTCJyevYeoA8fOdbgxp7WcCQhFUAgz=EwrYEeNCtqyePTUPOA@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CALAdGNQ8Uk5rUiqROb_aLTsjz=EFrsbcvv+h6EGoChB-tByUZA@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Aug 21, 2018 at 3:07 PM William Flynn Wallace
<foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Aug 21, 2018 at 4:14 PM Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Tue, Aug 21, 2018 at 1:38 PM William Flynn Wallace
>> <foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > I am full of ideas about advances in biology that could improve humanity incredibly.  Few of us seem that interested in genetics and its role in creating the transhumans we desire.  But that's the way it's going to happen.
>>
>> How would you implement those changes?
>
> It is going to be very difficult to get people to approve of designer babies, especially when splicing in genes from other people (or whatever genes can be created in labs from scratch) can be done.

One possibility: get general acceptance of cloning humans, so that you
can manufacture babies (e.g., for would-be parents biologically unable
to conceive).  There will be less resistance to editing their genes -
and then editing natural-born babies can be promoted as just being
fair, giving them the same advantages.


From foozler83 at gmail.com  Tue Aug 21 23:58:42 2018
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2018 18:58:42 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Things I have (sort of) changed my mind on (3): Tabloid
 transhumanism
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNQ8Uk5rUiqROb_aLTsjz=EFrsbcvv+h6EGoChB-tByUZA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKTCJyevYeoA8fOdbgxp7WcCQhFUAgz=EwrYEeNCtqyePTUPOA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRZC1S6d8LrAahjwOC7PaOrotJNKOkGiSJjMeWgKFv5Rw@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CALAdGNTADPqWTMvMjhA5EG2BdVSy7tagGCQGhOyyKoYZF1G9kw@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYfnqFLb7qffyhncBeTqkXHKM4x-bthR=eLtd+n0xDmKA@mail.gmail.com>

>
>
>
> One possibility: get general acceptance of cloning humans, so that you
> can manufacture babies (e.g., for would-be parents biologically unable
> to conceive).  There will be less resistance to editing their genes -
> and then editing natural-born babies can be promoted as just being
> fair, giving them the same advantages.
>   adrian
>

They are already cloning family pets.  Why not people?  "That's one small
step for a dog, one giant leap for mankind."   I can see replacing people
who died.  But would you need permission to clone a living person?  Laws of
inheritance would go crazy.

Surely it's being tried somewhere by some evil (?) scientist.  When it
comes out we'll see havoc in the newspapers.  As libertarians, we should be
all for anything people want to do, right?  Probably wrong.  Prediction
(100% accuracy) - the government will get into this and mess it up badly.

bill w

>


> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From atymes at gmail.com  Wed Aug 22 00:11:19 2018
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2018 17:11:19 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Things I have (sort of) changed my mind on (3): Tabloid
 transhumanism
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYfnqFLb7qffyhncBeTqkXHKM4x-bthR=eLtd+n0xDmKA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKTCJyevYeoA8fOdbgxp7WcCQhFUAgz=EwrYEeNCtqyePTUPOA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRZC1S6d8LrAahjwOC7PaOrotJNKOkGiSJjMeWgKFv5Rw@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CALAdGNT19iH5Q5XvQ0-vkpFaJLaZoiM8oq=57NH0qdDHAYsNTQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Aug 21, 2018 at 5:01 PM William Flynn Wallace
<foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> One possibility: get general acceptance of cloning humans, so that you
>> can manufacture babies (e.g., for would-be parents biologically unable
>> to conceive).  There will be less resistance to editing their genes -
>> and then editing natural-born babies can be promoted as just being
>> fair, giving them the same advantages.
>>   adrian
>
> They are already cloning family pets.  Why not people?  "That's one small step for a dog, one giant leap for mankind."

I meant babies, as in new people w/no parents or relatives to object
to the genetic modification of, not necessarily clones traceable to
specific ancestry.  (Though start with cloned offspring, perhaps.)
That said...

> I can see replacing people who died.  But would you need permission to clone a living person?  Laws of inheritance would go crazy.

If that were to happen today, legally the clone would be the former
person's descendant, not the same individual.  Laws of inheritance
would treat the clone as just another offspring.  The clone doesn't
have the source person's knowledge or memories, and is thus no more a
replacement than any ordinary son or daughter is a replacement.

And of course you'd need the living person's permission.  Just like
you (legally and morally, if not biologically) need it for the natural
method.

> Prediction (100% accuracy) - the government will get into this and mess it up badly.

But of course.  One trick is to set up the situation so that the way
they mess it up doesn't derail (and ideally reinforces) the objective.


From foozler83 at gmail.com  Wed Aug 22 00:15:36 2018
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2018 19:15:36 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Things I have (sort of) changed my mind on (3): Tabloid
 transhumanism
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNT19iH5Q5XvQ0-vkpFaJLaZoiM8oq=57NH0qdDHAYsNTQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKTCJyevYeoA8fOdbgxp7WcCQhFUAgz=EwrYEeNCtqyePTUPOA@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CALAdGNT19iH5Q5XvQ0-vkpFaJLaZoiM8oq=57NH0qdDHAYsNTQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbA45pzZzu2Jr9225pb8APsY+d3nise_6Y5yY4LX1ze6Q@mail.gmail.com>

Now all we need are people in D.C. with three digit IQs - thanks   fin
billw

On Tue, Aug 21, 2018 at 7:13 PM Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tue, Aug 21, 2018 at 5:01 PM William Flynn Wallace
> <foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> One possibility: get general acceptance of cloning humans, so that you
> >> can manufacture babies (e.g., for would-be parents biologically unable
> >> to conceive).  There will be less resistance to editing their genes -
> >> and then editing natural-born babies can be promoted as just being
> >> fair, giving them the same advantages.
> >>   adrian
> >
> > They are already cloning family pets.  Why not people?  "That's one
> small step for a dog, one giant leap for mankind."
>
> I meant babies, as in new people w/no parents or relatives to object
> to the genetic modification of, not necessarily clones traceable to
> specific ancestry.  (Though start with cloned offspring, perhaps.)
> That said...
>
> > I can see replacing people who died.  But would you need permission to
> clone a living person?  Laws of inheritance would go crazy.
>
> If that were to happen today, legally the clone would be the former
> person's descendant, not the same individual.  Laws of inheritance
> would treat the clone as just another offspring.  The clone doesn't
> have the source person's knowledge or memories, and is thus no more a
> replacement than any ordinary son or daughter is a replacement.
>
> And of course you'd need the living person's permission.  Just like
> you (legally and morally, if not biologically) need it for the natural
> method.
>
> > Prediction (100% accuracy) - the government will get into this and mess
> it up badly.
>
> But of course.  One trick is to set up the situation so that the way
> they mess it up doesn't derail (and ideally reinforces) the objective.
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From sparge at gmail.com  Wed Aug 22 02:05:58 2018
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2018 22:05:58 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Things I have (sort of) changed my mind on (3): Tabloid
 transhumanism
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNRZC1S6d8LrAahjwOC7PaOrotJNKOkGiSJjMeWgKFv5Rw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKTCJyevYeoA8fOdbgxp7WcCQhFUAgz=EwrYEeNCtqyePTUPOA@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAM5aL2d-uOjLedx4pN5GaS+=kBNLjcuNOO26qUYDBWB0twhUrg@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Aug 21, 2018 at 4:26 PM Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:

> Which begs the questions:
>

No, it prompts the questions. Begging the question is the logical fallacy
of circular reasoning. Sorry, that's one of my peeves. Not one of pet
peeves, though. That's another of my peeves...probably my pet peeve.

-Dave
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From steinberg.will at gmail.com  Wed Aug 22 02:06:55 2018
From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2018 22:06:55 -0400
Subject: [ExI] CRACKPOTS (was electoral college)
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYD4rYdFU02Aw3TS4BOcC-P7Pf6NXpDg88+HrtZ+w9KPg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv1UOkNMuFke=D+ZyfVNR55qm30B5jEKWm9Vyqs84ee2hQ@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAKrqSyETo=obn=cBC5sYG0iCSUxOg8cwwWyis6mDQtDPg_J36w@mail.gmail.com>

Of course I know Phone Booth!  He killed President Lincoln for god's sake!

As for smells, well--this is the generation of anilingus.  No shortage of,
er, primal smells.  ;9
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From giulio at gmail.com  Wed Aug 22 05:07:40 2018
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2018 07:07:40 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Things I have (sort of) changed my mind on (3): Tabloid
 transhumanism
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNRZC1S6d8LrAahjwOC7PaOrotJNKOkGiSJjMeWgKFv5Rw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKTCJyevYeoA8fOdbgxp7WcCQhFUAgz=EwrYEeNCtqyePTUPOA@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAKTCJye88-7VMie839YqExgG_5Fj8JXcfzDnpE+HLpe+aptMYQ@mail.gmail.com>

This is, I think, the right attitude. What little things can we do,
here and now, to put humanity on a good path, at the far end of which
all transhumanist dreams will be achieved and exceeded? We are all
crew members of Spaceship Earth, and there are plenty of important
tasks for all temperaments and skills.
On Tue, Aug 21, 2018 at 10:26 PM Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Which begs the questions:
>
> 1) What can do we do today, to make sure this future will eventually come about?
>
> 2) Short of the wildly optimistic projections for Singularity
> tomorrow, what parts of that can we realistically implement in the
> short term?  Can each of us carve off pieces to accomplish, so that
> our collective works will improve humanity, bring the long-distant
> Singularity much closer to today, and reap substantial personal
> rewards in the near term?
>
> I know my answers, especially to the latter.  (CubeCab is the
> currently most visible part.)  But what about the rest of you?  I know
> some of you have similar answers.
> On Tue, Aug 21, 2018 at 6:58 AM Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Things I have (sort of) changed my mind on (3): Tabloid transhumanism
> >
> > I am a card carrying, unrepentant, in-your face transhumanist. But,
> > like in part one and two of this series of ?Things that I have (sort
> > of) changed my mind on,? I want to add some caveats. I AM a
> > transhumanist, BUT?
> >
> > https://turingchurch.net/things-i-have-sort-of-changed-my-mind-on-3-tabloid-transhumanism-f11bebc7c67
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > extropy-chat mailing list
> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat



From lubkin at unreasonable.com  Thu Aug 23 00:58:02 2018
From: lubkin at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin)
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2018 20:58:02 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Electoral College
In-Reply-To: <022301d43821$fde86890$f9b939b0$@rainier66.com>
References: <d7053975d604aaa0a366531a2e2e1615.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
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Message-ID: <201808230138.w7N1cEOc018374@anath.zia.io>

Popping in to get caught up a bit. I don't want to revive the thread 
but I do want to respond to one point.

Spike wrote:

>John I do think this comment seriously underestimates the military. 
>Those guys are not mindless killer-bots.  I know and worked with a 
>bunch of military ossifers in my career.  I know of none of them who 
>I think would go along with a coup against the constitution.  I know 
>plenty of them would I think would be willing to refuse an illegal 
>order, which is what it would be if framed as a sudden declaration 
>of martial law used to cancel or postpone (even for an hour) an election.

I want to empathically agree. My father was, among other things, a 
bird colonel. My sister, brother-in-law, other brother-in-law, 
cousin, etc. are current serving ossifers. The sister met her husband 
at Annapolis. We also have ossifer family in the Royal Navy and the 
IDF, and many  work in a civilian capacity. One of my classmates rose 
to command the Israel Air Force. And I've known a few "mindless 
killer-bots," like my SEAL next-door neighbor, who was working on his 
PhD in nuclear physics when we met.

They are all smart, ethical, honorable people who put their butt on 
the line and take their oaths of office very seriously.

Not to say there aren't a few ossified ossifers. But the Republic is 
safe, at least from our own military.


-- David.



From danust2012 at gmail.com  Thu Aug 23 06:59:14 2018
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2018 23:59:14 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Why the reaction wheels on Kepler failed?
Message-ID: <D63C56F0-BA3F-40F7-8EA2-5E3158FD91BF@gmail.com>

http://esmats.eu/esmatspapers/pastpapers/pdfs/2017/bialke.pdf

One explanation though would be hard to confirm unless and until some of these spacecraft might be recovered.... Or might it be possible to put a platform with metal reaction wheels on a loopy orbit, wait for a few solar even to occur, then recover it (when it loops back in) and examine the bearings?

Regards,

Dan
   Sample my Kindle books at:
http://author.to/DanUst
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From cetico.iconoclasta at gmail.com  Thu Aug 23 14:56:38 2018
From: cetico.iconoclasta at gmail.com (Henrique Moraes Mechado (CI))
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2018 11:56:38 -0300
Subject: [ExI] Why the reaction wheels on Kepler failed?
In-Reply-To: <D63C56F0-BA3F-40F7-8EA2-5E3158FD91BF@gmail.com>
References: <D63C56F0-BA3F-40F7-8EA2-5E3158FD91BF@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5ecfc0d8-1bae-a303-bdbf-b3845bdfb460@gmail.com>

Scott Manley made a video about it very recently

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KibT-PEMHUU


On 08/23/2018 03:59 AM, Dan TheBookMan wrote:
> http://esmats.eu/esmatspapers/pastpapers/pdfs/2017/bialke.pdf
>
> One explanation though would be hard to confirm unless and until some 
> of these spacecraft might be recovered.... Or might it be possible to 
> put a platform with metal reaction wheels on a loopy orbit, wait for a 
> few solar even to occur, then recover it (when it loops back in) and 
> examine the bearings?
>
> Regards,
>
>

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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Thu Aug 23 16:44:55 2018
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2018 12:44:55 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Electoral College
In-Reply-To: <201808230138.w7N1cEOc018374@anath.zia.io>
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On Wed, Aug 22, 2018 at 8:58 PM, David Lubkin <lubkin at unreasonable.com>
wrote:

*>They are all smart, ethical, honorable people who put their butt on the
> line and take their oaths of office very seriously.*


Most are but some are not, General Flynn was not honorable and General
Kelly is not honorable, and those are exactly the sort of military men that
Trump seeks out and promotes in his administration.

>
> *the Republic is safe, at least from our own military*


I hope you're right but I have grave doubts.

John K Clark
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From danust2012 at gmail.com  Thu Aug 23 17:01:21 2018
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2018 10:01:21 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Why the reaction wheels on Kepler failed?
In-Reply-To: <5ecfc0d8-1bae-a303-bdbf-b3845bdfb460@gmail.com>
References: <D63C56F0-BA3F-40F7-8EA2-5E3158FD91BF@gmail.com>
 <5ecfc0d8-1bae-a303-bdbf-b3845bdfb460@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9A7A7C6A-12A1-4DC1-9082-474D32175503@gmail.com>

On Aug 23, 2018, at 7:56 AM, Henrique Moraes Mechado (CI) <cetico.iconoclasta at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Scott Manley made a video about it very recently
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KibT-PEMHUU

So switching to ceramic bearings seems to have solved the problem. I wonder if there?s any downside to that. Thanks!

Regards,

Dan
   Sample my Kindle books at:
http://author.to/DanUst
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From lubkin at unreasonable.com  Thu Aug 23 19:51:51 2018
From: lubkin at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin)
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2018 15:51:51 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Electoral College
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv1d++vy6-ajZF0GrrAenyS1o=gUmP9Vto58nwuER2uWuA@mail.g
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Message-ID: <201808231952.w7NJqG2l002309@anath.zia.io>

I wrote:

>They are all smart, ethical, honorable people who put their butt on 
>the line and take their oaths of office very seriously.

John Clark replied:

>Most are but some are not, General Flynn was not honorable and 
>General Kelly is not honorable, and those are exactly the sort of 
>military men that Trump seeks out and promotes in his administration.

Flag officers (O-7 and above, i.e., the grades of general or admiral) 
are implicitly political beasts. They are usually all more 
politicians than soldiers.

The ranks that matter for freedom are the field-grade officers, O-4 
to O-6. In the USA, USAF, and USMC, that's major, lieutenant colonel, 
and colonel. In the USN and Coast Guard, that's lieutenant-commander, 
commander, and captain.

They're called field-grade because they are the ones who are actually 
leading in battle, with rare exceptions. The ones who shed the blood. 
You can also recognize them by reading their fruit salad. The 
politician in uniform is festooned with I-was-there ribbons. The 
actual warriors have the ribbons for valor. They tend to be 
troublemakers who aren't politic enough to make BG.

More than the ranks above or below, their fealty to the country and 
the Constitution is our safeguard.

Them, and the senior NCOs, who actually make things happen at an 
ossifer's behest.


-- David.



From foozler83 at gmail.com  Thu Aug 23 20:03:16 2018
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2018 15:03:16 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Electoral College
In-Reply-To: <201808231952.w7NJqG2l002309@anath.zia.io>
References: <d7053975d604aaa0a366531a2e2e1615.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
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Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZP_4h-CeYnOkuCFd1w+8TG4sWqPSW7eLLu9FmZJfTLyg@mail.gmail.com>

I had a student ask for some help from me once.  She was going to her
boyfriend's house over the weekend, and would meet his parents. She was
petrified.

I listened to all sort of problems that could occur - she was going to make
a fool of herself in dozens of ways, and so on.

Finally I said "What you are doing is playing the What If game.  Yes, all
sorts of things might happen, and what it they did?  Well it would be bad,
yes.  But you can imagine many things that could go wrong, and you might go
there anxious that they will happen and the consequences if they do.  And
it's endless.  Completely endless."

You are going to worry yourself needlessly until the visit is over.

So she went back to her dorm and, as she later told me, wrote What If on
her mirror, notebook, wall, door.  She decided that she did not want to
play that game anymore as she was driving herself nuts.

bill w

On Thu, Aug 23, 2018 at 2:54 PM David Lubkin <lubkin at unreasonable.com>
wrote:

> I wrote:
>
> >They are all smart, ethical, honorable people who put their butt on
> >the line and take their oaths of office very seriously.
>
> John Clark replied:
>
> >Most are but some are not, General Flynn was not honorable and
> >General Kelly is not honorable, and those are exactly the sort of
> >military men that Trump seeks out and promotes in his administration.
>
> Flag officers (O-7 and above, i.e., the grades of general or admiral)
> are implicitly political beasts. They are usually all more
> politicians than soldiers.
>
> The ranks that matter for freedom are the field-grade officers, O-4
> to O-6. In the USA, USAF, and USMC, that's major, lieutenant colonel,
> and colonel. In the USN and Coast Guard, that's lieutenant-commander,
> commander, and captain.
>
> They're called field-grade because they are the ones who are actually
> leading in battle, with rare exceptions. The ones who shed the blood.
> You can also recognize them by reading their fruit salad. The
> politician in uniform is festooned with I-was-there ribbons. The
> actual warriors have the ribbons for valor. They tend to be
> troublemakers who aren't politic enough to make BG.
>
> More than the ranks above or below, their fealty to the country and
> the Constitution is our safeguard.
>
> Them, and the senior NCOs, who actually make things happen at an
> ossifer's behest.
>
>
> -- David.
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From lubkin at unreasonable.com  Thu Aug 23 20:25:50 2018
From: lubkin at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin)
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2018 16:25:50 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Electoral College
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEZP_4h-CeYnOkuCFd1w+8TG4sWqPSW7eLLu9FmZJfTLyg@mail.g
 mail.com>
References: <d7053975d604aaa0a366531a2e2e1615.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
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Message-ID: <201808232026.w7NKQGKb025942@anath.zia.io>

William Flynn Wallace wrote:

>Finally I said "What you are doing is playing 
>the What If game.  Yes, all sorts of things 
>might happen, and what it they did?  Well it 
>would be bad, yes.  But you can imagine many 
>things that could go wrong, and you might go 
>there anxious that they will happen and the 
>consequences if they do.  And it's endless.  Completely endless."

Pulling back to core extropian topics, we know 
from many studies, going back decades, that the 
general public?or humans per se, if you like?has 
a very poor sense of risk. They routinely both 
overestimate and underestimate risks by several 
orders of magnitude. The hallmarks of this group 
should be rationality, numeracy, and rigor. It 
should be a place where we think things through 
together, for our own sakes' and to be prepared 
when we hear The Van Allen Belt is falling! The Van Allen Belt is falling!

Also, as a tactic for emotional management of 
fear and worry from perceived risk, assume the 
worst came true. If you can convince yourself 
you'd be fine even if, everything else is better than that.

I use that approach as one way to gauge political 
fear-mongering. If X is elected, Y will happen! 
In my experience, even if I don't want Y (and I 
often do), the prospect of Y is usually 
shrug-worthy. I try it on for size mentally. And 
if there's somewhere where Y is in place, I can 
look at it and meh, not what I'd pick, but I can live with it.


-- David.




From sen.otaku at gmail.com  Fri Aug 24 18:17:49 2018
From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard)
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2018 13:17:49 -0500
Subject: [ExI] female heros?
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEa4rFgO_aMvrK9t8jCzTJVsJaSJeJif6hWG9g2kS6-qDw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaA32eq802e=+BhJ+_i8Mu2ava22RPD7VejAuC=tWQAag@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CABf9QbA1Q_Lqde6sYD=Vy85mv47+9Q0eO-=dCvstz9Bw=U_RVA@mail.gmail.com>

Psychologists are about 65% women, or around that mark.
Psychiatrists are now about evenly split.

On Mon, Aug 20, 2018 at 9:28 AM, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
wrote:

>
>
> On Sun, Aug 19, 2018 at 8:04 PM, SR Ballard <sen.otaku at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> And despite outnumbering men in many institutions of post-secondary
>> education they continue to choose lower paying majors, careers, and
>> specialties.
>>
>> I am not interested enough to do the research to find others, but
> psychology, for one, went majority female quite a while back, and that's
> not a low level profession.
>
> bill w
>
>
>> For example, women are more likely to become nurses and men are more
>> likely to become doctors. When women become either nurses or doctors, they
>> choose lower paying specialties than men.
>>
>> Anecdote (for it's super low worth) -- I loved math all through school,
>> and tutored college students while in middle and high school. Men would
>> basically never comment on it at all. Women would always come up with a
>> remark like, "Oh, math is so hard, I could never be good at that." I never,
>> ever heard this from men, even when they were objectively shit at math.
>> Same thing when I lifted weights competitively in High School. Men didn't
>> say anything, but women sure had a lot to say about it, usually negative.
>>
>>
>> I'm not sure how much is actually men keeping women down and women
>> keeping each other down, at least in my age group.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Aug 18, 2018 at 11:49 PM, William Flynn Wallace <
>> foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> In colleges and professional schools girls outnumber boys in some of
>>> them.  There will be more women getting jobs relative to men, and that
>>> means more money and that means power.  To elect people, to direct taxes to
>>> your liking.  We almost had a woman president and probably will have soon.
>>>
>>> Women's time has been very slow getting here but it is still
>>> progressing.  Getting to any kind of equality we won't see in our
>>> lifetimes.  The only thing keeping women down in the future will be fascism
>>> if it increases here.
>>>
>>> Men and their religions have kept women down ab ovo.  Pun intended.  Men
>>> won't give up easily.  You'll have to fight them all the way.  Male ego has
>>> to change but that too will take a long time.  And so forth.
>>>
>>> bill w
>>>
>>> On Sat, Aug 18, 2018 at 6:51 PM, SR Ballard <sen.otaku at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> For example Vulvodynia
>>>> https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/vulvodynia/sy
>>>> mptoms-causes/syc-20353423
>>>>
>>>> There are other, similarly mysterious ailments.
>>>>
>>>> Another one is that there are pills which increase male libido, but
>>>> similar pills don't really exist for women.
>>>>
>>>> There's not as must research into menstrual management as you might
>>>> expect, but it's been getting a lot better recently.
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Aug 12, 2018 at 8:49 AM, William Flynn Wallace <
>>>> foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Female sexuality & sexual health is more complicated than just
>>>>> orgasms.  And those are the parts of female sexuality and health that are
>>>>> not well explored.
>>>>> sr ballard wrote
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, of course.  Can you give me some sort of idea what you are
>>>>> talking about?  bill w
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, Aug 12, 2018 at 3:38 AM, SR Ballard <sen.otaku at gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, Aug 10, 2018 at 12:14 PM, William Flynn Wallace <
>>>>>> foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I taught a class in Human Sexuality in the 80s and 90s and had no
>>>>>>> trouble at all finding research on orgasms of all types.  The first one I
>>>>>>> found was John Watson, who got thrown out of Johns Hopkins University
>>>>>>> because of his sexual experiments with a female grad student (Rosalie
>>>>>>> Raynor of the Watson and Raynor publication) in a basement where they were
>>>>>>> hooked up to various recording devices.  I reckon they did not publish that
>>>>>>> one.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think if you'll look, you'll find gobs of orgasm research.  What
>>>>>>> questions do you want answered?  How about Freud's about the difference
>>>>>>> between a vaginal and clitoral orgasm?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> bill w
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Female sexuality & sexual health is more complicated than just
>>>>>> orgasms.  And those are the parts of female sexuality and health that are
>>>>>> not well explored.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From sen.otaku at gmail.com  Fri Aug 24 18:20:14 2018
From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard)
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2018 13:20:14 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Electoral College and 1177 BCE
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB5rUurTsUN1a8uzX1O36+XeiN7ZhmCUi7_YYj-Rfnzf4A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB5rUurTsUN1a8uzX1O36+XeiN7ZhmCUi7_YYj-Rfnzf4A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABf9QbChpxGFCfo0hxernS3r3My7JNFzLVDOhXbr_cEG=6WX9w@mail.gmail.com>

> On Mon, Aug 20, 2018 at 10:06 AM,  John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> >  There
> > must be somebody on the list besides me that voted for Clinton but if
> there
> > is he's yet to speak up.
>

I voted Clinton. I was tempted to vote for Trump as a joke, but then I
worried he might actually be elected, and voted Clinton, because I thought
the race would be close. If it had been any other Republican except Trump
I probably would have voted 3rd party.
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From sen.otaku at gmail.com  Fri Aug 24 18:25:59 2018
From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard)
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2018 13:25:59 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Declining Life Expectancies in U.K & U.S
In-Reply-To: <655B0A2B-7DC5-415F-9ABB-B51D70308516@gmail.com>
References: <655B0A2B-7DC5-415F-9ABB-B51D70308516@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABf9QbCYOUv_qvVKQk1jQd9zvrDcJd-vdV+L8ZNv2dBTM5+9ow@mail.gmail.com>

>
> we spend higher percentages of our GDP on our medical systems


1. A bag of saline can cost $600 or more in US
2. I was charged $750,000+ for 30 days in the hospital (I did not require
any surgery or imaging)
3. Lack of preventative care
4. Lack of quick access to medical doctors do to lack of fund -- use of ER
when GP visit is more appropriate
5. Poor food quality
6. Poor nutrition guidelines
7. Lack of exercise (US uses cars for everything)
8. The combination of obesity and diabetis
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From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Aug 24 18:50:54 2018
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2018 11:50:54 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Electoral College and 1177 BCE
In-Reply-To: <CABf9QbChpxGFCfo0hxernS3r3My7JNFzLVDOhXbr_cEG=6WX9w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB5rUurTsUN1a8uzX1O36+XeiN7ZhmCUi7_YYj-Rfnzf4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABf9QbChpxGFCfo0hxernS3r3My7JNFzLVDOhXbr_cEG=6WX9w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <003e01d43bdb$63c46940$2b4d3bc0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of SR Ballard
Sent: Friday, August 24, 2018 11:20 AM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: Re: [ExI] Electoral College and 1177 BCE

 

 

On Mon, Aug 20, 2018 at 10:06 AM,  John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com <mailto:johnkclark at gmail.com> > wrote:



>  There
> must be somebody on the list besides me that voted for Clinton but if there
> is he's yet to speak up.

 

>?I voted Clinton. I was tempted to vote for Trump as a joke, but then I worried he might actually be elected, and voted Clinton, because I thought the race would be close. If it had been any other Republican except Trump  I probably would have voted 3rd party?

 

 

It also matters which state you are in.  If one has libertarian views and lives in a free state (such as California, New York, Texas, etc.) then your vote cannot possibly swing the election, but? if a third party makes a strong showing, as it did this last time, then it influences the mainstream candidates to reach out to those third parties.

 

Voting third party isn?t about getting one?s own candidate elected (there will not be a Libertarian or a Green elected to high office in our lifetime) but notice how this last time around, neither of the mainstream candidates even tossed a bone to any of the third parties, not that I could tell.  If either mainstream candidate had taken most of Gary Johnson?s followers, that candidate would have easily taken a clean victory.

 

Most of us live in free states.  Exi-types tend to cluster more in free states.  So? vote for your favorite party.  Perhaps the second most dreadful mainstream candidate who wins the election will be influenced to add your third party to his or her coalition.

 

Make sense?  Does to me.

 

spike

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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Fri Aug 24 19:38:58 2018
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2018 15:38:58 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Electoral College and 1177 BCE
In-Reply-To: <003e01d43bdb$63c46940$2b4d3bc0$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAPiwVB5rUurTsUN1a8uzX1O36+XeiN7ZhmCUi7_YYj-Rfnzf4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABf9QbChpxGFCfo0hxernS3r3My7JNFzLVDOhXbr_cEG=6WX9w@mail.gmail.com>
 <003e01d43bdb$63c46940$2b4d3bc0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv19vq9hm-BFcC3Ms1-6w4we9-dkAgoWwx6GYCReRy6aBQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Aug 24, 2018 at 2:53 PM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:


> >
>  *if a third party makes a strong showing, as it did this last time*
>
>
The librarian party got zero electoral votes in 2026, in 2020 I predict it
will get twice as many.

>
> *If either mainstream candidate had taken most of Gary Johnson?s
> followers, that candidate would have easily taken a clean victory.*
>
>
Hillary got 2,864,974 more popular votes than Trump, Johnson got less than
1.3 million votes, however if she got just 77,000 more votes in 3 states
she would be president not the mob boss (people like John Dean who flip and
squeal to the Feds are RATS!) we have today.

 John K Clark

>
>
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Fri Aug 24 19:50:20 2018
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2018 15:50:20 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Electoral College and 1177 BCE
In-Reply-To: <CABf9QbChpxGFCfo0hxernS3r3My7JNFzLVDOhXbr_cEG=6WX9w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB5rUurTsUN1a8uzX1O36+XeiN7ZhmCUi7_YYj-Rfnzf4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABf9QbChpxGFCfo0hxernS3r3My7JNFzLVDOhXbr_cEG=6WX9w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv173=VHd5yp4JQC-DvA0KpFFEJxAoZ9rLvsKjw0vTX=cw@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Aug 24, 2018 at 2:27 PM SR Ballard <sen.otaku at gmail.com> wrote:


> *> If it had been any other Republican except Trump  I probably would have
> voted 3rd party. *
>
Me too. I have voted for Libertarian candidates in the past but I will
never EVER do so again. At one time I would have said I had major
disagreements with both Clintons
,
but compared with Trump they
were
trivial and decided that 2016 was NOT the time for a
empty
symbolic gesture.

John K Clark
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From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Aug 24 20:09:58 2018
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2018 13:09:58 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Electoral College and 1177 BCE
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv19vq9hm-BFcC3Ms1-6w4we9-dkAgoWwx6GYCReRy6aBQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB5rUurTsUN1a8uzX1O36+XeiN7ZhmCUi7_YYj-Rfnzf4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABf9QbChpxGFCfo0hxernS3r3My7JNFzLVDOhXbr_cEG=6WX9w@mail.gmail.com>
 <003e01d43bdb$63c46940$2b4d3bc0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAJPayv19vq9hm-BFcC3Ms1-6w4we9-dkAgoWwx6GYCReRy6aBQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <007801d43be6$6f02fa50$4d08eef0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of John Clark



 

> 

If either mainstream candidate had taken most of Gary Johnson?s followers, that candidate would have easily taken a clean victory.

 

 

 

Hillary got 2,864,974 more popular votes than Trump, Johnson got less than 1.3 million votes, however if she got just 77,000 more votes in 3 states she would be president ?  John K Clark

 

 

That is my point exactly.  Had the second place winner merely tossed Johnson?s followers a bone, anything, anything at all, perhaps a few percent of those 1.3 million votes could have swung the election.  Good point.

 

Lesson learned: voting for your third party strengthens the meme set upon which it is based.  For Libertarians, it is all about balancing the Federal budget, regardless of what it takes to do that.  A strong showing by a third party influences the mainstream parties to listen and appeal to the third parties.  So if you live in a free state, your vote cannot possibly influence the election, but if you vote third party it can influence whoever wins that election.  So voting third party is the only way you can influence the election if you live in a free state.

 

The paradoxes of democracy are so cool.

 

spike

 

 

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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Aug 24 21:18:53 2018
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2018 16:18:53 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Electoral College and 1177 BCE
In-Reply-To: <003e01d43bdb$63c46940$2b4d3bc0$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAPiwVB5rUurTsUN1a8uzX1O36+XeiN7ZhmCUi7_YYj-Rfnzf4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABf9QbChpxGFCfo0hxernS3r3My7JNFzLVDOhXbr_cEG=6WX9w@mail.gmail.com>
 <003e01d43bdb$63c46940$2b4d3bc0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYqSaNxGDdwKGx8cFsA1mhevxoaMKFxHTjK5JeeakKj9g@mail.gmail.com>

Most of us live in free states.  Exi-types tend to cluster more in free
states.  So? vote for your favorite party.  Perhaps the second most
dreadful mainstream candidate who wins the election will be influenced to
add your third party to his or her coalition.



Make sense?  Does to me.  spike

-----------------

What do mean by free state, sir?


What worries me:  on every kind of news I see Trump's name.  There must be
6 or 7 articles in my paper every day.  Name recognition is a powerful
factor in elections.  Some will look at the candidates and just mark one
they know.  No one else has 1/1000th the name coverage.  What we need is a
candidate NOW!  So the news (and the Democrats) can start putting that
candidate's name out there for people to see.


In advertising, a lot of what matters is just to show the product and its
name, over and over.  People may not read or listen, but they will see the
name, and that sells a lot of Tide.


I have no idea who to get or how to get them.  Clinton too benefited from
her name far more than her politics, I suspect.


Hollywood press people tell us that just getting the name and face in the
news is what they seek.  Favorable would be good, but bad is just about as
good.



bill w

On Fri, Aug 24, 2018 at 1:50 PM, <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On Behalf
> Of *SR Ballard
> *Sent:* Friday, August 24, 2018 11:20 AM
> *To:* ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Electoral College and 1177 BCE
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 20, 2018 at 10:06 AM,  John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> >  There
> > must be somebody on the list besides me that voted for Clinton but if
> there
> > is he's yet to speak up.
>
>
>
> >?I voted Clinton. I was tempted to vote for Trump as a joke, but then I
> worried he might actually be elected, and voted Clinton, because I thought
> the race would be close. If it had been any other Republican except Trump
> I probably would have voted 3rd party?
>
>
>
>
>
> It also matters which state you are in.  If one has libertarian views and
> lives in a free state (such as California, New York, Texas, etc.) then your
> vote cannot possibly swing the election, but? if a third party makes a
> strong showing, as it did this last time, then it influences the mainstream
> candidates to reach out to those third parties.
>
>
>
> Voting third party isn?t about getting one?s own candidate elected (there
> will not be a Libertarian or a Green elected to high office in our
> lifetime) but notice how this last time around, neither of the mainstream
> candidates even tossed a bone to any of the third parties, not that I could
> tell.  If either mainstream candidate had taken most of Gary Johnson?s
> followers, that candidate would have easily taken a clean victory.
>
>
>
> Most of us live in free states.  Exi-types tend to cluster more in free
> states.  So? vote for your favorite party.  Perhaps the second most
> dreadful mainstream candidate who wins the election will be influenced to
> add your third party to his or her coalition.
>
>
>
> Make sense?  Does to me.
>
>
>
> spike
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Fri Aug 24 21:26:38 2018
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2018 17:26:38 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Electoral College and 1177 BCE
In-Reply-To: <007801d43be6$6f02fa50$4d08eef0$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAPiwVB5rUurTsUN1a8uzX1O36+XeiN7ZhmCUi7_YYj-Rfnzf4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABf9QbChpxGFCfo0hxernS3r3My7JNFzLVDOhXbr_cEG=6WX9w@mail.gmail.com>
 <003e01d43bdb$63c46940$2b4d3bc0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAJPayv19vq9hm-BFcC3Ms1-6w4we9-dkAgoWwx6GYCReRy6aBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <007801d43be6$6f02fa50$4d08eef0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv2mcn2zdDnHCGc9XuumP+RQV2Zj+7fLcOHb2LDxmTmxBA@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Aug 24, 2018 at 4:12 PM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:


> >>
>> Hillary got 2,864,974 more popular votes than Trump, Johnson got less
>> than 1.3 million votes, however if she got just 77,000 more votes in 3
>> states she would be president ?  John K Clark
>
>
>
> *>*
> *That is my point exactly.  Had the second place winner merely tossed
> Johnson?s followers a bone, anything, anything at all, perhaps a few
> percent of those 1.3 million votes could have swung the election.  Good
> point.*
>
>
If 77,000 people in 3 states who call themselves themselves libertarians
had voted for Clinton we would not now have the most anti-libertarian
leader in the nation's history.

>
> For Libertarians, it is all about balancing the Federal budget, regardless
> of what it takes to do that.
>
>
In 1998 the first Clinton gave us a balanced budget in 1998 for the first
time since 1835, then he did it again in 1999, 2000 and 2001. Trump gave us
the most un-balanced budget ever.

 John K Clark




>
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Aug 24 21:26:57 2018
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2018 16:26:57 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Declining Life Expectancies in U.K & U.S
In-Reply-To: <CABf9QbCYOUv_qvVKQk1jQd9zvrDcJd-vdV+L8ZNv2dBTM5+9ow@mail.gmail.com>
References: <655B0A2B-7DC5-415F-9ABB-B51D70308516@gmail.com>
 <CABf9QbCYOUv_qvVKQk1jQd9zvrDcJd-vdV+L8ZNv2dBTM5+9ow@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbT9BJgQ1VukRpnsf6Wv2O=pJpEpVZH2DpAcbXtZt08hw@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Aug 24, 2018 at 1:25 PM, SR Ballard <sen.otaku at gmail.com> wrote:

> we spend higher percentages of our GDP on our medical systems
>
>
> 1. A bag of saline can cost $600 or more in US
> 2. I was charged $750,000+ for 30 days in the hospital (I did not require
> any surgery or imaging)
> 3. Lack of preventative care
> 4. Lack of quick access to medical doctors do to lack of fund -- use of ER
> when GP visit is more appropriate
> 5. Poor food quality
> 6. Poor nutrition guidelines
> 7. Lack of exercise (US uses cars for everything)
> 8. The combination of obesity and diabetis
>

I have read and been educated and informed by reading books and articles by
Atul Gawande. If you don't know him, you should.  He deals with some of the
very inequalities in costs and prices you list above. He is a NYC surgeon.
  bill w

>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From sen.otaku at gmail.com  Fri Aug 24 22:55:45 2018
From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard)
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2018 17:55:45 -0500
Subject: [ExI] electoral college
In-Reply-To: <8DEEE21D4E3240069913C5D52C003801@MININTPNDT1SD>
References: <8DEEE21D4E3240069913C5D52C003801@MININTPNDT1SD>
Message-ID: <CABf9QbAMmid=+49qr41_sDOouffPkuch0He51OnZuh1EeCSa9A@mail.gmail.com>

I suppose you would call me a lefty type, the kind of person who might
naturally belong in NYC or LA. You forget that a lot of rural California is
heavily conservative, and most of New York State is also quite conservative.

My lefty type family lives in, and is from the South. They have friends
with similar views. And you know what? We live in the South, we also own
guns.

On Fri, Aug 17, 2018 at 5:06 PM, frank mcelligott <frankmac at ripco.com>
wrote:

> First of all Trump is a grad of  the university of Penn.  You must have a
> low regard for the ivy League, and talk about it as it was some Community
> College in Montana.  If he was stupid, it never happens; they the ivy
> league will never allow it.   He is rich, ok he was lucky.  He has 50% of
> the American people on his side.   And the military, and the police, and
> the center of this country.  What the other half has is the coasts east and
> west.  In California no guns, in new york no guns, in Arizona everybody has
> a gun. Same trump supports in Indiana, Kentucky, Tennessee,  have guns too.
> So he says I am not leaving the election was un fair to many Mexicans voted
> , as well as those people with phony driver licenses,   He then argues that
> the two states that should not be counted are New York and California. The
> Military agrees that both states are not part to the USA and should not be
> counted because of who voted.  That means Citizens should only vote and
> illegals should not.. So do the police agreed in the other 48 states.
>
> Now what happens,  Tax the living day lights out of California and New
> york, Make Silicon valley move to Iowa, Place a wall around both states,
> and let their economy die like a sour grape on a northern California wine
> vine.
>
> Want to fight about it, what do you have on your side, not a gun just a
> piece of paper.  The other side has 360 million guns and a natural hatred
> for both states.  Case closed.
>
> The paper is backed up my  45 colt,  and that 45 colt says your paper does
> not count,  so don?t wave it in my face instead  stuff it in your mouth.
> All of this depends on the 2018 elections.
>
> If they (dems) win the house, and try to impeach him,  those 50% who
> support him will revolt, and if history tells us anything (turkey is
> latest) First the judges, then the elected officials, then the college
> professors all jailed, and you have a man who will promise then a free
> election in 2020 .
>
> Please read some history,  South America is a great place to start. And
> for a primer to this talk about constitutions  read about how Putin came to
> power at the turn of the century.
>
> Frank
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Sat Aug 25 00:33:46 2018
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2018 17:33:46 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Electoral College and 1177 BCE
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYqSaNxGDdwKGx8cFsA1mhevxoaMKFxHTjK5JeeakKj9g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB5rUurTsUN1a8uzX1O36+XeiN7ZhmCUi7_YYj-Rfnzf4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABf9QbChpxGFCfo0hxernS3r3My7JNFzLVDOhXbr_cEG=6WX9w@mail.gmail.com>
 <003e01d43bdb$63c46940$2b4d3bc0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEYqSaNxGDdwKGx8cFsA1mhevxoaMKFxHTjK5JeeakKj9g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <010e01d43c0b$4947dc20$dbd79460$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace
Sent: Friday, August 24, 2018 2:19 PM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: Re: [ExI] Electoral College and 1177 BCE

 

>>?Most of us live in free states.  Exi-types tend to cluster more in free states.  So? vote for your favorite party.  ?spike

-----------------

 

>?What do mean by free state, sir?

 

A free state is any state where one candidate has such an advantage that it can?t be close.  In those states, voters are free to vote for whoever they want and not worry about causing the favored candidate to lose that state.  About 40 of the states are free that way.

 

>?  Name recognition is a powerful factor in elections.  Some will look at the candidates and just mark one they know.  No one else has 1/1000th the name coverage?

 

Ja, not such a coincidence that a Hollywood type was elected.  I can?t remember his name right offhand, but it?s the guy in there now.

 

>?Hollywood press people tell us that just getting the name and face in the news is what they seek.  Favorable would be good, but bad is just about as good.

 

bill w

 

Understatement.  It used to be said that bad publicity is better than no publicity.  Eventually they discovered that bad publicity is better than good publicity.  The current guy (whose name I cannot recall) started a war with the press, they fell for it, gave him bad publicity.  It worked.

 

spike

 

 

 

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From steinberg.will at gmail.com  Sat Aug 25 01:22:37 2018
From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg)
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2018 21:22:37 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Electoral College and 1177 BCE
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv2mcn2zdDnHCGc9XuumP+RQV2Zj+7fLcOHb2LDxmTmxBA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB5rUurTsUN1a8uzX1O36+XeiN7ZhmCUi7_YYj-Rfnzf4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABf9QbChpxGFCfo0hxernS3r3My7JNFzLVDOhXbr_cEG=6WX9w@mail.gmail.com>
 <003e01d43bdb$63c46940$2b4d3bc0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAJPayv19vq9hm-BFcC3Ms1-6w4we9-dkAgoWwx6GYCReRy6aBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <007801d43be6$6f02fa50$4d08eef0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAJPayv2mcn2zdDnHCGc9XuumP+RQV2Zj+7fLcOHb2LDxmTmxBA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKrqSyEBwv3r1Tr+iUM5viKHDy2VHhWcatcD5EqfNOdsWYXWUA@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Aug 24, 2018, 17:28 John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Fri, Aug 24, 2018 at 4:12 PM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:
>
>
>> >>
>>> Hillary got 2,864,974 more popular votes than Trump, Johnson got less
>>> than 1.3 million votes, however if she got just 77,000 more votes in 3
>>> states she would be president ?  John K Clark
>>
>>
>>
>> *>*
>> *That is my point exactly.  Had the second place winner merely tossed
>> Johnson?s followers a bone, anything, anything at all, perhaps a few
>> percent of those 1.3 million votes could have swung the election.  Good
>> point.*
>>
>>
> If 77,000 people in 3 states who call themselves themselves libertarians
> had voted for Clinton we would not now have the most anti-libertarian
> leader in the nation's history.
>

Were there enough that that could have swung the tallies?

Plus you're assuming they plausibly could have decided.  There are much
bigger motions at play.

Which is also why consciousness is related--perceiving of the human brain
as THE unit of consciousness will lead to a single-brain-centered
(monoanthropocentric?) view.  The reality is mass thoughts have much
greater significance than any single human's thought.  A single human
cannot stage a protest or fight a war.  Placing such individual blame is
pointless...Trump got elected because of ALL OF AMERICA, *not* just some of
it.  Any problems that we've let get so bad that this happened, we are all
to blame.
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From spike at rainier66.com  Sat Aug 25 02:00:20 2018
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2018 19:00:20 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Electoral College and 1177 BCE
In-Reply-To: <CAKrqSyEBwv3r1Tr+iUM5viKHDy2VHhWcatcD5EqfNOdsWYXWUA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB5rUurTsUN1a8uzX1O36+XeiN7ZhmCUi7_YYj-Rfnzf4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABf9QbChpxGFCfo0hxernS3r3My7JNFzLVDOhXbr_cEG=6WX9w@mail.gmail.com>
 <003e01d43bdb$63c46940$2b4d3bc0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAJPayv19vq9hm-BFcC3Ms1-6w4we9-dkAgoWwx6GYCReRy6aBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <007801d43be6$6f02fa50$4d08eef0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAJPayv2mcn2zdDnHCGc9XuumP+RQV2Zj+7fLcOHb2LDxmTmxBA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyEBwv3r1Tr+iUM5viKHDy2VHhWcatcD5EqfNOdsWYXWUA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <017001d43c17$61556dd0$24004970$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Will Steinberg
Sent: Friday, August 24, 2018 6:23 PM



>? {That guy whose name I cannot recall at the moment} got elected because of ALL OF AMERICA, *not* just some of it.  Any problems that we've let get so bad that this happened, we are all to blame?

 

 

Will, I need to clarify my free state comments.  Only those in FREE states (as determined by opinion polls taken anonymously over the phone before the election) are free.  Libertarians living in those 40 or so free states (or 47 by some counts) are free to vote however they choose.  If you do not live in one of the 40 (or 47) free states, then you must follow your orders and vote for whichever you feel is the second-most egregious mainstreamer, otherwise it?s all your fault.

 

In our times, it really all comes down to three big swingers: Florida, Ohio and Pennsylvania.  Libertarians living there, you must follow orders!  You are not free to vote for just any Tom, Dick or Gary!  If you fail to vote as you are supposed to, then it?s all your fault.  

 

Who the heck gave Florida, Ohio and Pennsylvania permission to choose a president anyway?  We should get together and choose different big swingers.  All Libertarians in those three states should move away from there immediately!  Or should move to there, depending on how you think about it.

 

spike

 

 

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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Sat Aug 25 12:46:11 2018
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2018 08:46:11 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Electoral College and 1177 BCE
In-Reply-To: <017001d43c17$61556dd0$24004970$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAPiwVB5rUurTsUN1a8uzX1O36+XeiN7ZhmCUi7_YYj-Rfnzf4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABf9QbChpxGFCfo0hxernS3r3My7JNFzLVDOhXbr_cEG=6WX9w@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAJPayv1_HWb1h7cVgJwdtaN5H3ot4Y7T1hNfSsKNXep8yKmjCQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Aug 24, 2018 at 10:02 PM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:

*> Only those in FREE states (as determined by opinion polls taken
> anonymously over the phone before the election) are free.  Libertarians
> living in those 40 or so free states (or 47 by some counts) are free to
> vote however they choose.*


Given how radically wrong opinion polls turned out to be in 2016 its odd
they should still play such a key part in your political philosophy.

* > In our times, it really all comes down to three big swingers: Florida,
> Ohio and Pennsylvania. [...] Who the heck gave Florida, Ohio and
> Pennsylvania permission to choose a president anyway? *


Those weren't the 3 states I was talking about. If 77,000  people in
Michigan, Wisconsin and Pennsylvania who voted for the Libertarian party
Mr. Nobody or the environmental
Green
 party Mr. Nobody had instead voted for Clinton we would not now have the
most anti-libertarian anti-environmental president in the history of the
nation.

John K Clark

>
>
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Sat Aug 25 13:06:56 2018
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2018 09:06:56 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Electoral College and 1177 BCE
In-Reply-To: <CAKrqSyEBwv3r1Tr+iUM5viKHDy2VHhWcatcD5EqfNOdsWYXWUA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB5rUurTsUN1a8uzX1O36+XeiN7ZhmCUi7_YYj-Rfnzf4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABf9QbChpxGFCfo0hxernS3r3My7JNFzLVDOhXbr_cEG=6WX9w@mail.gmail.com>
 <003e01d43bdb$63c46940$2b4d3bc0$@rainier66.com>
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Message-ID: <CAJPayv2abN_PV2oNAzQt0iCMQMe1H_yVyaCf+f2dJWC2HPb1yg@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Aug 24, 2018 at 9:25 PM Will Steinberg <steinberg.will at gmail.com>
wrote:

> >>
>> If 77,000 people in 3 states who call themselves themselves libertarians
>> had voted for Clinton we would not now have the most anti-libertarian
>> leader in the nation's history.
>>
>
> >
> *Were there enough that that could have swung the tallies?*
>

Yes.

*>Plus you're assuming they plausibly could have decided.  *
>

I was assuming libertarians would behave logically, but as we we saw in
2016 that turned out to be a unwarranted assumption.

*>Trump got elected because of ALL OF AMERICA, *not* just some of it.*


NO! Trump didn't get all the votes or most of the votes or even a plurality
of the votes, Clinton
got
2,864,974 more votes than Trump
yet Trump is now our leader, and no amount of whitewash can ever eliminate that
stain on our nation. History will not look kindly at this.

 John K Clark






> There are much bigger motions at play.
>
> Which is also why consciousness is related--perceiving of the human brain
> as THE unit of consciousness will lead to a single-brain-centered
> (monoanthropocentric?) view.  The reality is mass thoughts have much
> greater significance than any single human's thought.  A single human
> cannot stage a protest or fight a war.  Placing such individual blame is
> pointless...Trump got elected because of ALL OF AMERICA, *not* just some of
> it.  Any problems that we've let get so bad that this happened, we are all
> to blame.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From lubkin at unreasonable.com  Sat Aug 25 15:47:31 2018
From: lubkin at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin)
Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2018 11:47:31 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Electoral College and 1177 BCE
In-Reply-To: <017001d43c17$61556dd0$24004970$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAPiwVB5rUurTsUN1a8uzX1O36+XeiN7ZhmCUi7_YYj-Rfnzf4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABf9QbChpxGFCfo0hxernS3r3My7JNFzLVDOhXbr_cEG=6WX9w@mail.gmail.com>
 <003e01d43bdb$63c46940$2b4d3bc0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAJPayv19vq9hm-BFcC3Ms1-6w4we9-dkAgoWwx6GYCReRy6aBQ@mail.gmail.com>
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 <017001d43c17$61556dd0$24004970$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <201808251548.w7PFm0Wh009621@anath.zia.io>

Spike wrote:

>Who the heck gave Florida, Ohio and Pennsylvania permission to 
>choose a president anyway?  We should get together and choose 
>different big swingers.  All Libertarians in those three states 
>should move away from there immediately!  Or should move to there, 
>depending on how you think about it.

It's interesting watching New Hampshire change as Free Staters move 
here en masse. There's now a substantial (15-20 reps) FSP presence in 
the state house. (The best LPNH ever managed was 4.)

But, ironically, that libertarianism is reducing its impact. 
Manchester had an election last fall in which a libertarian candidate 
lost by a margin so slim that activists have told me it was exceeded 
by the number of ward libertarians who had refused to vote as a 
matter of principle.


-- David.



From steinberg.will at gmail.com  Sat Aug 25 16:05:21 2018
From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg)
Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2018 12:05:21 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Electoral College and 1177 BCE
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv2abN_PV2oNAzQt0iCMQMe1H_yVyaCf+f2dJWC2HPb1yg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB5rUurTsUN1a8uzX1O36+XeiN7ZhmCUi7_YYj-Rfnzf4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABf9QbChpxGFCfo0hxernS3r3My7JNFzLVDOhXbr_cEG=6WX9w@mail.gmail.com>
 <003e01d43bdb$63c46940$2b4d3bc0$@rainier66.com>
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 <CAJPayv2abN_PV2oNAzQt0iCMQMe1H_yVyaCf+f2dJWC2HPb1yg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKrqSyG1Bqn9YCuv=eczhKAwsveog7tfBKhCEDLbq96iWAbQfg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Aug 25, 2018 at 9:08 AM John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

> ...Clinton
> got
> 2,864,974 more votes than Trump
> yet Trump is now our leader...
>

Really??!?  This is the first time you've mentioned it.  I assumed he found
a golden ticket in his chocolate bar or something.


> History will not look kindly at this.
>

 Welcome, John K Clark--GRAND ARBITER OF HISTORY!!!!  Can I lick your
boots??

Seriously though, what would it take for you to stop posting about this?
PLEASE tell me, and I will make it happen.  Do you need people here to
admit culpability in his election?  If so, I promise you I'll grab Spike by
the lapels and shake him--VIGOROUSLY!!

No shit, history will look back on us as a fucked up country full of idiots
who let this happen.  Actually, scratch that--people are already looking at
us like that?  Other countries aren't even surprised by this because
they've seen our idiotic moves leading up to this?   Hmmmm.

John, WHY do you keep bringing it up?  What are you trying to accomplish?
All I see is somebody who likes criticizing and complaining.  And somebody
for whom hindsight is 20/20 but who likes to brag that it's 40/20.
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sat Aug 25 17:04:42 2018
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2018 12:04:42 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Electoral College and 1177 BCE
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv2abN_PV2oNAzQt0iCMQMe1H_yVyaCf+f2dJWC2HPb1yg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB5rUurTsUN1a8uzX1O36+XeiN7ZhmCUi7_YYj-Rfnzf4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABf9QbChpxGFCfo0hxernS3r3My7JNFzLVDOhXbr_cEG=6WX9w@mail.gmail.com>
 <003e01d43bdb$63c46940$2b4d3bc0$@rainier66.com>
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 <CAJPayv2abN_PV2oNAzQt0iCMQMe1H_yVyaCf+f2dJWC2HPb1yg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEY-f72Bi72RMzSh3k=Jj6Zgt+P3sUt35Y358B7zHgmfZA@mail.gmail.com>

.Trump got elected because of ALL OF AMERICA, *not* just some of it.  Any
problems that we've let get so bad that this happened, we are all to blame.

Save me some Googling - since the ratings of Congress have been
historically poor (I think), why have we not recalled some Senators and
Representatives?  Is it always the other guy's fault?  What in the
Constitution allows recall?

bill w

On Sat, Aug 25, 2018 at 8:06 AM, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Fri, Aug 24, 2018 at 9:25 PM Will Steinberg <steinberg.will at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> >>
>>> If 77,000 people in 3 states who call themselves themselves libertarians
>>> had voted for Clinton we would not now have the most anti-libertarian
>>> leader in the nation's history.
>>>
>>
>> >
>> *Were there enough that that could have swung the tallies?*
>>
>
> Yes.
>
> *>Plus you're assuming they plausibly could have decided.  *
>>
>
> I was assuming libertarians would behave logically, but as we we saw in
> 2016 that turned out to be a unwarranted assumption.
>
> *>Trump got elected because of ALL OF AMERICA, *not* just some of it.*
>
>
> NO! Trump didn't get all the votes or most of the votes or even a
> plurality of the votes, Clinton
> got
> 2,864,974 more votes than Trump
> yet Trump is now our leader, and no amount of whitewash can ever eliminate that
> stain on our nation. History will not look kindly at this.
>
>  John K Clark
>
>
>
>
>
>
>> There are much bigger motions at play.
>>
>> Which is also why consciousness is related--perceiving of the human brain
>> as THE unit of consciousness will lead to a single-brain-centered
>> (monoanthropocentric?) view.  The reality is mass thoughts have much
>> greater significance than any single human's thought.  A single human
>> cannot stage a protest or fight a war.  Placing such individual blame is
>> pointless...Trump got elected because of ALL OF AMERICA, *not* just some of
>> it.  Any problems that we've let get so bad that this happened, we are all
>> to blame.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Sat Aug 25 17:09:04 2018
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2018 10:09:04 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Electoral College and 1177 BCE
In-Reply-To: <CAKrqSyG1Bqn9YCuv=eczhKAwsveog7tfBKhCEDLbq96iWAbQfg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB5rUurTsUN1a8uzX1O36+XeiN7ZhmCUi7_YYj-Rfnzf4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABf9QbChpxGFCfo0hxernS3r3My7JNFzLVDOhXbr_cEG=6WX9w@mail.gmail.com>
 <003e01d43bdb$63c46940$2b4d3bc0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAJPayv19vq9hm-BFcC3Ms1-6w4we9-dkAgoWwx6GYCReRy6aBQ@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CAJPayv2mcn2zdDnHCGc9XuumP+RQV2Zj+7fLcOHb2LDxmTmxBA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyEBwv3r1Tr+iUM5viKHDy2VHhWcatcD5EqfNOdsWYXWUA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv2abN_PV2oNAzQt0iCMQMe1H_yVyaCf+f2dJWC2HPb1yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyG1Bqn9YCuv=eczhKAwsveog7tfBKhCEDLbq96iWAbQfg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <009b01d43c96$544dc1d0$fce94570$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Will Steinberg



 

>? WHY do you keep bringing it up?  What are you trying to accomplish?  ?

 

We can make a discussion relevant by always going meta.  This requires no actual names, but only concepts.

 

For instance, an interesting and relevant discussion on this topic, appropriate here, is that we clearly entered an age of information warfare.  We were talking about information warfare in this forum 20 yrs ago.  That mechanism managed to get the US into a cold civil war that rages to this day, hotter than it did in the 1960s when we had an actual underlying cause (the war in Vietnam.)

 

Now we are in a kind of weird time: when we don?t really have the legal infrastructure to determine if it is an actual crime to set up a website or a GoFundMe claiming to be raising money to dig up dirt on one candidate or another, then not actually doing anything other than pocketing the money.  It looks to me like whoever does that can claim the website itself does what it claims it is doing, with no further effort required.

 

The same person could offer negative information against both mainstream parties.  Then if called out, they could legitimately claim to be promoting a third party, opposed to both (or all the others) such as the spike party, hoping to promote spike-ism and lead others to more spikely behavior.

 

Is there anything fraudulent about that?  What?

 

spike

 

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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Sat Aug 25 17:09:57 2018
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2018 13:09:57 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Electoral College and 1177 BCE
In-Reply-To: <CAKrqSyG1Bqn9YCuv=eczhKAwsveog7tfBKhCEDLbq96iWAbQfg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB5rUurTsUN1a8uzX1O36+XeiN7ZhmCUi7_YYj-Rfnzf4A@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAJPayv1sV7E-1RwNDQk+CVNmqfF3xHv6HZH9uiF2ZjiNZW=--Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Aug 25, 2018 at 12:07 PM Will Steinberg <steinberg.will at gmail.com>
wrote:

>>
>> ...Clinton
>> got
>> 2,864,974 more votes than Trump
>> yet Trump is now our leader...
>>
>
> *>Really??!? *
>

Yes really.


> *>This is the first time you've mentioned it.  I assumed he found a golden
> ticket in his chocolate bar or something.*
>

Will, doesn't that statistic bother you even a little?

>>
>> History will not look kindly at this.
>>
>
> >
>  *Welcome, John K Clark--GRAND ARBITER OF HISTORY!!!! *
>

How do you envision History will remember the Trump era?

Do you think people will be proud to tell their grandchildren "I voted for
Trump"?


> >
> *Can I lick your boots??*
>

If that's your thing sure.

>
> *Seriously though, what would it take for you to stop posting about this? *
>

Trump resigning dying or being kicked out of office.



> >
> *Other countries aren't even surprised by this because they've seen our
> idiotic moves leading up to this? *
>

No there were surprised. We've done dumb things before and we've had bad
presidents
before but Trump is unique,

 John K Clark
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From spike at rainier66.com  Sat Aug 25 20:57:27 2018
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2018 13:57:27 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Electoral College and 1177 BCE
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEY-f72Bi72RMzSh3k=Jj6Zgt+P3sUt35Y358B7zHgmfZA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB5rUurTsUN1a8uzX1O36+XeiN7ZhmCUi7_YYj-Rfnzf4A@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CAJPayv2mcn2zdDnHCGc9XuumP+RQV2Zj+7fLcOHb2LDxmTmxBA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyEBwv3r1Tr+iUM5viKHDy2VHhWcatcD5EqfNOdsWYXWUA@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <00de01d43cb6$3be84820$b3b8d860$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace
?


>? - since the ratings of Congress have been historically poor (I think), why have we not recalled some Senators and Representatives?  Is it always the other guy's fault?  What in the Constitution allows recall?  

 

bill w

 

 

US Senators and representatives cannot be recalled, but even if they could, it wouldn?t happen.  Governors can be recalled, and have been, such as in Cahleefoooornia.

 

Regarding the historically low ratings of the US congress: if the question is asked what is your approval of congress, the answer comes back in the teens usually.  If the same ones are asked what is your approval of your senators and representative, the approval rating is around 50%.  If they are then asked to name their senators and representative, then take only those who can name them, the approval rating is in the high 70s to low 80s.

 

I would argue that if you can?t name your representative, then your approval of that representative and of the house is irrelevant.  If you can?t name at least one of your senators, it?s time to ask yourself how you got so far out of touch.  

 

Next time you hear someone tell you the approval rating of congress, ask them who is their representative.

 

spike

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From steinberg.will at gmail.com  Sat Aug 25 21:53:36 2018
From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg)
Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2018 17:53:36 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Electoral College and 1177 BCE
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv1sV7E-1RwNDQk+CVNmqfF3xHv6HZH9uiF2ZjiNZW=--Q@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAKrqSyGygqEap_HacxeRWpW_gSVcUuosASxd=RRMX6fRGLURrA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Aug 25, 2018, 13:20 John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sat, Aug 25, 2018 at 12:07 PM Will Steinberg <steinberg.will at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >>
>>> ...Clinton
>>> got
>>> 2,864,974 more votes than Trump
>>> yet Trump is now our leader...
>>>
>>
>> *>Really??!? *
>>
>
> Yes really.
>

Never would have guessed, I don't think anyone has mentioned it on this
list. ;)


>
>> *>This is the first time you've mentioned it.  I assumed he found a
>> golden ticket in his chocolate bar or something.*
>>
>
> Will, doesn't that statistic bother you even a little?
>

Obviously.  But:

1) I can't change the past, and complaining into the void is fucking stupid.

2) You'd have to be similarly fucking stupid to think getting rid of the
electoral college is a good idea.  In fact, it largely HELPS democrats.
It's much better to have your votes condensed in an unlosable election (NY,
CA) than to have to win 20 separate elections in middle America.  Fact.

3)  EVERYONE running for president knows how the electoral college works.
Hillary lost those states because she assumed she'd win them and didn't
campaign enough there.  It was a strategic failure.  She was outmaneuvered,
whether by Trump's campaign, the GOP, or Russia (all 3 seems like the
correct choice.)


> >>
>>> History will not look kindly at this.
>>>
>>
>> >
>>  *Welcome, John K Clark--GRAND ARBITER OF HISTORY!!!! *
>>
>
> How do you envision History will remember the Trump era?
>
> Do you think people will be proud to tell their grandchildren "I voted for
> Trump"?
>

WHERE are you getting this shit?  Listen: I don't like Trump.  He is a
shame and a stain on our history.  I just don't go pissing into my own face
pointlessly like you do by whinging constantly about the past.  Why don't
you complain about Andrew Johnson or something?  So far he was far worse
for the country and 100% was the cause of current racial
tensions/inequality.

I think history will look back and say:

a) Trump clearly colluded with Russia, who influenced our election using
social media psyops.

b) Brewing hate, increasing immigration, and economic hardship among
working-class poor whites should have easily indicated that this would
happen, and we ignored signs for decades leading to this colossal failure.

c) Clinton ran a presumptuous and disrespectful campaign and delusionally
thought the young people and black people who elected Obama would support
her racist, classist, neoliberal imperialist ass.  She was a catastrophic
strategic failure by the DNC who ignored vast amounts of angry poor people
and demonstrably rigged the primary against a populist socialist who was
never given a chance but had leagues more support from the youth.


>
>> >
>> *Can I lick your boots??*
>>
>
> If that's your thing sure.
>

Ready and willing.


> >
>> *Seriously though, what would it take for you to stop posting about
>> this? *
>>
>
> Trump resigning dying or being kicked out of office.
>
>

And complaining here helps that how?  Please stop.


>
>> >
>> *Other countries aren't even surprised by this because they've seen our
>> idiotic moves leading up to this? *
>>
>
> No there were surprised. We've done dumb things before and we've had bad
> presidents
> before but Trump is unique
>

Again--if you look at what passes for entertainment these days, and how
every piece of media is full of bullying and self-hate, you'd see why this
happened and why it is a deserved and necessary part of our reckoning.

You would do well to listen more.  At this point you could be replaced by a
spam email bot.

A PROPOSAL:

We of the ExI list hereby declare that every thread herein shall be
appended by a theoretical John K Clark post complaining about Trump or the
2016 election.  Because we already know the contents of the message, it
will not be necessary for Mr. Clark to add a duplicate of this theoretical
post.  If he has anything DIFFERENT to add, he may per thread, petition to
attach an addendum of NEW information to said theoretical post.  Electoral
college votes for this decision will allotted in relation to how many hard
boiled eggs each voter is able to consume in a single sitting, one vote per
egg.

I move to introduce this "JKC complaint amendment" to the ExI
constitution.  All in favor, please raise your favorite hand.
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From lubkin at unreasonable.com  Sat Aug 25 22:11:52 2018
From: lubkin at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin)
Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2018 18:11:52 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Electoral College and 1177 BCE
In-Reply-To: <00de01d43cb6$3be84820$b3b8d860$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAPiwVB5rUurTsUN1a8uzX1O36+XeiN7ZhmCUi7_YYj-Rfnzf4A@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <201808252212.w7PMCMgc009417@anath.zia.io>

Spike wrote:

>I would argue that if you can't name your representative, then your 
>approval of that representative and of the house is irrelevant.  If 
>you can't name at least one of your senators, it's time to ask 
>yourself how you got so far out of touch.
>
>Next time you hear someone tell you the approval rating of congress, 
>ask them who is their representative.

I remember if the governor, senators, and my congresscritter are 
Republican or Democratic. In my state and congressional district, I 
know how they'll vote from that. It's irrelevant to me if it's Mr. A 
or Ms. B; in practice, they don't differ.


-- David.



From johnkclark at gmail.com  Sat Aug 25 23:37:41 2018
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2018 19:37:41 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Electoral College and 1177 BCE
In-Reply-To: <CAKrqSyGygqEap_HacxeRWpW_gSVcUuosASxd=RRMX6fRGLURrA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB5rUurTsUN1a8uzX1O36+XeiN7ZhmCUi7_YYj-Rfnzf4A@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAJPayv1iCLt+t5D605TC2Pd4cOs5CknPXZAethuXtmLyGP8iEw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Aug 25, 2018 at 5:56 PM Will Steinberg <steinberg.will at gmail.com>
wrote:


> *>>>This is the first time you've mentioned it.  I assumed he found a
>>> golden ticket in his chocolate bar or something.*
>>>
>>
>> >>
>> Will, doesn't that statistic bother you even a little?
>>
>
> >
> *Obviously.  But: **1) I can't change the past, and complaining into the
> void is fucking stupid*.
>

Apparently you think is is also fucking stupid to change things so it
doesn't happen again.



> >
> 2) You'd have to be similarly fucking stupid to think getting rid of the
> electoral college is a good idea.
>

So you believe it its a good idea  to have some American citizens (cow
owning republicans in small states) have have 70 times the voting power of
other American citizens (bookstore owning democrats in large states). Would
it be a even better idea to have it be 700 not 70? How about 70,000 or
700,000? Would you consider that Fucking brilliant?

 > In fact, it largely HELPS democrats.

The democrats won the popular vote in 2000 and 2016 but the republicans won
the presidency and we won the Iraq War and a ignorant emotional unstable
man with his finger on the nuclear trigger.
And its not just the electoral college,  in 2012 the democrats won 1.4
million more votes for the House of Representatives than the republicans
but due to gerrymandering they won only 201 seats, the republicans got 234
and control.of the House.

I
t's even worse in the Senate, in 2016 the democrats got 11,093,892 more
votes but won only 44 seats, the republicans got 54 and control of the
Senate.
Helps the democrats my ass!



> >
> *It's much better to have your votes condensed in an unlosable election
> (NY, CA) than to have to win 20 separate elections in middle America.
> Fact.*
>

I can't make heads or tails out of that statement.

>>
>> How do you envision History will remember the Trump era?
>>
>> Do you think people will be proud to tell their grandchildren "I voted
>> for Trump"?
>>
>
> *>WHERE are you getting this shit?  *
>

>From somebody who thinks its fucking stupid to talk about these things.
that's where I'm getting this shit.


>
> >
> *Please stop.*
>

That plea would be far more effective if it had come at the beginning of a
short post and not at the end of a long one.

Everybody wants to have the last word but I respectfully suggest i
f you
really
want me to stop commenting on this fucking topic then stop responding
to this fucking topic.


John K Clark
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From steinberg.will at gmail.com  Sun Aug 26 00:53:17 2018
From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg)
Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2018 20:53:17 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Electoral College and 1177 BCE
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv1iCLt+t5D605TC2Pd4cOs5CknPXZAethuXtmLyGP8iEw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB5rUurTsUN1a8uzX1O36+XeiN7ZhmCUi7_YYj-Rfnzf4A@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAKrqSyFBN3FiudxHoMnr8qw9zRAB5TFHcNr6m5hqygHOLu0xyw@mail.gmail.com>

John, I don't disagree with you about anything besides whether using the
exact same politicky shitposting in every thread is appropriate discourse.
It *suppresses* discourse.  It is a terrible, ineffectual means to your
desired ends.  I am *completely* willing to accept your value judgment of
said shitposting here being justified, but I am of the strong position that
it is destructive (and already has driven long-time members away.)  I do
not believe you could have a compelling argument in favor of its use.


On Sat, Aug 25, 2018 at 7:39 PM John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

> some American citizens (cow owning republicans in small states)
>

Wow!! Real cowboys?!



> other American citizens (bookstore owning democrats in large states).
>

Yeah, books!


> Everybody wants to have the last word but I respectfully suggest i
> f you
> really
> want me to stop commenting on this fucking topic then stop responding
> to this fucking topic.
>
>
>
No, I have stake in it.  I like this list a lot and it's pretty crazy what
the effect of these political shitposts have been.  What happened to the
awesome H+ list I joined?  Can't we talk about uploading or
Matryoshka Brains or lab-grown organs or metamaterials or anything else??

I truly, truly do not understand why it has to overtake the list.  We're
all dealing with the fallout from current events, and the predication of
worse ones to come, in our own ways.  Maybe someone on this list will be
inspired by a H+ post and invent a device that lets people share their
thoughts so they will have more empathy for one another.  Or perhaps figure
out the remedy for the behavioral-economical advantage-taking of gullible
consumers, and lessen the grip of corporations from the roots.  Or figure
out how uploading works so the underlying survival/death anxiety is
alleviated?

The current events are part of a LONG TERM PROBLEM THAT HAS BEEN EMERGING
FOR A LONG TIME.  And the solutions, even if some needed to be completed
quickly to avoid a fascist coup, are of varying lengths.  You can NOT use
the assumption we will nuke ourselves to death at the hands of a madman to
NOT also plan for the more likely events otherwise (even while actively
trying to avert said fascist coup.)

This is a place for the growth of forever ideas.  If you want to go make
political change with your own hands, go to a revolutionary group.  Or if
you want to circumlocute around repetitive quasipolitical ravings, I
guarantee you there are a lot of lists for that too.  This just doesn't
happen to be THAT list.  This list is a different list.

 Nobody is going to listen to repeated bashings over the head with
political value judgments.  It is extremely pointless and going nowhere.
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From danust2012 at gmail.com  Sun Aug 26 01:31:14 2018
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2018 18:31:14 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Electoral College and 1177 BCE
In-Reply-To: <CAKrqSyFBN3FiudxHoMnr8qw9zRAB5TFHcNr6m5hqygHOLu0xyw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB5rUurTsUN1a8uzX1O36+XeiN7ZhmCUi7_YYj-Rfnzf4A@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <B013A5FE-A512-4BEC-A9F3-A08AEB1739F5@gmail.com>

On Aug 25, 2018, at 5:53 PM, Will Steinberg <steinberg.will at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> John, I don't disagree with you about anything besides whether using the exact same politicky shitposting in every thread is appropriate discourse.  It *suppresses* discourse.  It is a terrible, ineffectual means to your desired ends.  I am *completely* willing to accept your value judgment of said shitposting here being justified, but I am of the strong position that it is destructive (and already has driven long-time members away.)  I do not believe you could have a compelling argument in favor of its use.

I agree about it being destructive. Wasn?t Anders driven away by all this political stuff? And he was no Trump supporter or Clinton hater. I?d much rather have Anders back then face however more years of whinging. 

Regards,

Dan
   Sample my Kindle books at:
http://author.to/DanUst


From interzone at gmail.com  Sun Aug 26 01:51:49 2018
From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio)
Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2018 21:51:49 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Electoral College and 1177 BCE
In-Reply-To: <B013A5FE-A512-4BEC-A9F3-A08AEB1739F5@gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB5rUurTsUN1a8uzX1O36+XeiN7ZhmCUi7_YYj-Rfnzf4A@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAJrqPH9ERLDTSqzF5JjEeqGBA0tGHo0zk=D4yH78G6KWxPbF-Q@mail.gmail.com>

Yes, it was disappointing to see him go...

I also happen to enjoy John's stuff when he's not shitposting about
politics.

I've really bitten my tongue throughout the latest fiasco which has not
been easy.

The one piece of fuel I would add to this dumpster fire is that I have zero
regrets even now that HRC was not elected for many reasons, and have been
enjoying the fruits of the current US economy and the financial markets.
 Better to make hay while the sun is shining then cry in your beer...

On Sat, Aug 25, 2018, 9:32 PM Dan TheBookMan <danust2012 at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Aug 25, 2018, at 5:53 PM, Will Steinberg <steinberg.will at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > John, I don't disagree with you about anything besides whether using the
> exact same politicky shitposting in every thread is appropriate discourse.
> It *suppresses* discourse.  It is a terrible, ineffectual means to your
> desired ends.  I am *completely* willing to accept your value judgment of
> said shitposting here being justified, but I am of the strong position that
> it is destructive (and already has driven long-time members away.)  I do
> not believe you could have a compelling argument in favor of its use.
>
> I agree about it being destructive. Wasn?t Anders driven away by all this
> political stuff? And he was no Trump supporter or Clinton hater. I?d much
> rather have Anders back then face however more years of whinging.
>
> Regards,
>
> Dan
>    Sample my Kindle books at:
> http://author.to/DanUst
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Sun Aug 26 02:41:41 2018
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2018 22:41:41 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Electoral College and 1177 BCE
In-Reply-To: <CAKrqSyFBN3FiudxHoMnr8qw9zRAB5TFHcNr6m5hqygHOLu0xyw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB5rUurTsUN1a8uzX1O36+XeiN7ZhmCUi7_YYj-Rfnzf4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABf9QbChpxGFCfo0hxernS3r3My7JNFzLVDOhXbr_cEG=6WX9w@mail.gmail.com>
 <003e01d43bdb$63c46940$2b4d3bc0$@rainier66.com>
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 <007801d43be6$6f02fa50$4d08eef0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAJPayv2mcn2zdDnHCGc9XuumP+RQV2Zj+7fLcOHb2LDxmTmxBA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyEBwv3r1Tr+iUM5viKHDy2VHhWcatcD5EqfNOdsWYXWUA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv2abN_PV2oNAzQt0iCMQMe1H_yVyaCf+f2dJWC2HPb1yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyG1Bqn9YCuv=eczhKAwsveog7tfBKhCEDLbq96iWAbQfg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1sV7E-1RwNDQk+CVNmqfF3xHv6HZH9uiF2ZjiNZW=--Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyGygqEap_HacxeRWpW_gSVcUuosASxd=RRMX6fRGLURrA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1iCLt+t5D605TC2Pd4cOs5CknPXZAethuXtmLyGP8iEw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyFBN3FiudxHoMnr8qw9zRAB5TFHcNr6m5hqygHOLu0xyw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv1-yQxeTsOtm8hpC3_mJtWA8zROywA59DVc9KujZ=e+oA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Aug 25, 2018 at 8:56 PM Will Steinberg <steinberg.will at gmail.com>
wrote:

>
 *I like this list a lot and it's pretty crazy what the effect of these
political shitposts have been.  What happened to the awesome H+ list I
joined?  Can't we talk about uploading or*
*Matryoshka Brains or lab-grown organs or metamaterials or anything else??*

Then do so I'm all ears, but remember that a imbecile's whim could render
irrelevant  all our talk about the future .


> >
> *I am *completely* willing to accept your value judgment of said
> shitposting here being justified, but I am of the strong position that it
> is destructive*
>

I am writing this post because of  your post, if you think its shitposting
then for god's sake stop shitposting.

I respond to political posts because I don't think they're thit, but why do
you?


> >
>   *I do not believe you could have a compelling argument in favor of its
> use.*
>

Well what is your compelling argument for continuing this topic that you
think is shit?  You must have a reason because you're continuing to do it.

*>I guarantee you there are a lot of lists for that too.  This just doesn't
> happen to be THAT list.  This list is a different list.  *
>

Don't tell me what sort of list this is sonny boy, I've been on it one hell
of a lot longer than you have!

>
>  Nobody is going to listen to repeated bashings over the head with
> political value judgments.
>

Then why are you bashing me on the head with virtually the same "shitpost"
you sent before if you don't like "shitposts" and think they do good? I
eagerly await your next long political post explaining why political posts
are shit ending in a demand that nobody should ever send another political
post again.


> >
> *It is extremely pointless and going nowhere.*
>

And yet you will respond because the thing you really don't like is not
having the last word.

John K Clark
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From steinberg.will at gmail.com  Sun Aug 26 02:51:06 2018
From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg)
Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2018 22:51:06 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Electoral College and 1177 BCE
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv1-yQxeTsOtm8hpC3_mJtWA8zROywA59DVc9KujZ=e+oA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB5rUurTsUN1a8uzX1O36+XeiN7ZhmCUi7_YYj-Rfnzf4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABf9QbChpxGFCfo0hxernS3r3My7JNFzLVDOhXbr_cEG=6WX9w@mail.gmail.com>
 <003e01d43bdb$63c46940$2b4d3bc0$@rainier66.com>
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 <007801d43be6$6f02fa50$4d08eef0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAJPayv2mcn2zdDnHCGc9XuumP+RQV2Zj+7fLcOHb2LDxmTmxBA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyEBwv3r1Tr+iUM5viKHDy2VHhWcatcD5EqfNOdsWYXWUA@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CAKrqSyG1Bqn9YCuv=eczhKAwsveog7tfBKhCEDLbq96iWAbQfg@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CAJPayv1iCLt+t5D605TC2Pd4cOs5CknPXZAethuXtmLyGP8iEw@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAKrqSyFrmQVrSPvWt3AE4fFt=j8+st6hj1oF2-Z2M2-h7E=hHQ@mail.gmail.com>

Ok you win
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From sen.otaku at gmail.com  Sun Aug 26 05:31:00 2018
From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard)
Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2018 00:31:00 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Declining Life Expectancies in U.K & U.S
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEbT9BJgQ1VukRpnsf6Wv2O=pJpEpVZH2DpAcbXtZt08hw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <655B0A2B-7DC5-415F-9ABB-B51D70308516@gmail.com>
 <CABf9QbCYOUv_qvVKQk1jQd9zvrDcJd-vdV+L8ZNv2dBTM5+9ow@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEbT9BJgQ1VukRpnsf6Wv2O=pJpEpVZH2DpAcbXtZt08hw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABf9QbCGLz5hfz=3X8ZrFFChztN82YRr4ERYP0EocQfopf5+_Q@mail.gmail.com>

I'm not sure if this is actually relevant, as I was having trouble
understanding this, but it seems related to the discussion at hand. I've
always struggled to understand CPIs.

I was reading the US 2010 Census data today (I'm writing a rather long
reply to another post). In Section 3, Table 142 you'll find the Consumer
Price Index of Medical Care. "100" is calibrated to represent the prices
1982-1984.

As of 1980, Prices for physicians were 77, Dental was 79, hospital was 70,
Perscriptions were 73.

In 1990 they were 161, 156, 168, 182.
in 2000 they were 245, 259, 317, 285.
In 2010 they were 331, 399, 608, 408.

Are these already adjusted for inflation? Even if they are, it's still a
bit shocking to see the money spent on hospital stays to increase 9x over
the period 1980 to 2010. Though perhaps it is a function of changing usage
of hospitals and the medical system? Such as going to the doctor for every
little cold, use of ER for minor health problems, mending teeth rather than
doing extractions (as well as increased cosmetic dentistry), and an
increasing number of new prescription drugs.

Perhaps I am misunderstanding what I am reading?

(For reference, $100 in 1983, was the equivalent of $222 in 2010.)


On Fri, Aug 24, 2018 at 4:26 PM, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
wrote:

>
>
> On Fri, Aug 24, 2018 at 1:25 PM, SR Ballard <sen.otaku at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> we spend higher percentages of our GDP on our medical systems
>>
>>
>> 1. A bag of saline can cost $600 or more in US
>> 2. I was charged $750,000+ for 30 days in the hospital (I did not require
>> any surgery or imaging)
>> 3. Lack of preventative care
>> 4. Lack of quick access to medical doctors do to lack of fund -- use of
>> ER when GP visit is more appropriate
>> 5. Poor food quality
>> 6. Poor nutrition guidelines
>> 7. Lack of exercise (US uses cars for everything)
>> 8. The combination of obesity and diabetis
>>
>
> I have read and been educated and informed by reading books and articles
> by Atul Gawande. If you don't know him, you should.  He deals with some of
> the very inequalities in costs and prices you list above. He is a NYC
> surgeon.    bill w
>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From sen.otaku at gmail.com  Sun Aug 26 05:46:56 2018
From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard)
Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2018 00:46:56 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Electoral College and 1177 BCE
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv1-yQxeTsOtm8hpC3_mJtWA8zROywA59DVc9KujZ=e+oA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB5rUurTsUN1a8uzX1O36+XeiN7ZhmCUi7_YYj-Rfnzf4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABf9QbChpxGFCfo0hxernS3r3My7JNFzLVDOhXbr_cEG=6WX9w@mail.gmail.com>
 <003e01d43bdb$63c46940$2b4d3bc0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAJPayv19vq9hm-BFcC3Ms1-6w4we9-dkAgoWwx6GYCReRy6aBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <007801d43be6$6f02fa50$4d08eef0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAJPayv2mcn2zdDnHCGc9XuumP+RQV2Zj+7fLcOHb2LDxmTmxBA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyEBwv3r1Tr+iUM5viKHDy2VHhWcatcD5EqfNOdsWYXWUA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv2abN_PV2oNAzQt0iCMQMe1H_yVyaCf+f2dJWC2HPb1yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyG1Bqn9YCuv=eczhKAwsveog7tfBKhCEDLbq96iWAbQfg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1sV7E-1RwNDQk+CVNmqfF3xHv6HZH9uiF2ZjiNZW=--Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyGygqEap_HacxeRWpW_gSVcUuosASxd=RRMX6fRGLURrA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1iCLt+t5D605TC2Pd4cOs5CknPXZAethuXtmLyGP8iEw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyFBN3FiudxHoMnr8qw9zRAB5TFHcNr6m5hqygHOLu0xyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1-yQxeTsOtm8hpC3_mJtWA8zROywA59DVc9KujZ=e+oA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABf9QbDGtExf1QHy=zQqBfcKJjVv_hC28z3CeNy=BmpWBVuxoQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Aug 25, 2018 at 9:41 PM, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sat, Aug 25, 2018 at 8:56 PM Will Steinberg <steinberg.will at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >
>  *I like this list a lot and it's pretty crazy what the effect of these
> political shitposts have been.  What happened to the awesome H+ list I
> joined?  Can't we talk about uploading or*
> *Matryoshka Brains or lab-grown organs or metamaterials or anything else??*
>
> Then do so I'm all ears, but remember that a imbecile's whim could render
> irrelevant  all our talk about the future .
>
John K Clark
>
>

Right, but this is basically a free-will/predestination type argument here.



Let's imagine this as basically a little chart, like a punnet square. The
x-axis is labeled "survive, don't survive (nuked to death)". The y-axis is
labeled "planning, no planning (succumbed to anxiety over being nuked /
political change)".

Clearly we can see that we have 4 quadrents.

Quadrent I: We survive and we planned for the future. We've developed and
worked on ideas and we pull out of everything better than ever. (Happy
Ending)

Quadrent II: We planned for the future and worked as hard as we could, but
we ended up getting nuked in the end. (Sad)

Quadrent III: We sucummbed to paranoia about being nuked and continued to
be freaked out by political changes, failing to look forward and plan for
the future, existing in a state of dread and panic for the weeks/months
before we were finally nuked to death and wecomed it as sweet release from
our anxieties. (Depressing)

Quadrent IV: We succumbed to paranoia about nukes and changing political
landscape and are sure the world is about to end, then suddenly all the fog
clears and we realize that we're not all going to die, the world didn't
end, but we've been spinning our wheels for a long time (years?) and have
really fallen behind the curve. (Frustrating)



As we can see, clearly, we should focus on interesting things, and if we
get nuked, well it's sad, but it's a whole lot better than thinking you're
going to die then suddenly realizing you're going to live, when you stopped
planning for your life a long time ago. Like when people think they'll die
before 70, but they live to be 85, so they struggle because they didn't
save enough money for retirement.
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Sun Aug 26 16:38:03 2018
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2018 12:38:03 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Declining Life Expectancies in U.K & U.S
In-Reply-To: <655B0A2B-7DC5-415F-9ABB-B51D70308516@gmail.com>
References: <655B0A2B-7DC5-415F-9ABB-B51D70308516@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv1EuZxXLDmGnoAPaGntCw=U-jRRX4Yr2r51oWTRaXOJ2Q@mail.gmail.com>

Drug abuse has something to do with it. The rate of drug overdose deaths in
2016 was 3 times what it was in 1999 and it's growing fast, the 2016 rate
was 21% higher than the 2015 rate.

And the increase in the number of suicides  certainly has something to do
with it too, since 1999 the rate has increased in 49 out of 50 states and
is now the 10th leading cause of death, you're more than twice as likely to
kill yourself than to get murdered. The 5 states with the highest suicide
rates are in order, Montana,  Alaska , Wyoming, New Mexico and Utah. The 5
states with the lowest suicide rates are in order, California, Connecticut,
Maryland, Massachusetts, New York and New Jersey.  Washington DC has a
lower suicide rate than any state.

It's interesting that the suicide rate in Wyoming is 2.5 times what it is
in California. If I were still allowed to make political comments I'd say
the democrats seem to be making people happier than the republicans, but
I'm not so I won't.

 John K Clark
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sun Aug 26 17:13:52 2018
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2018 12:13:52 -0500
Subject: [ExI] playing psychologist
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbosuOvYJzDrES0y0HSG+k71ue30Lc2M-seziMvTgmsSw@mail.gmail.com>

Yes, I am going to play a bit.  I was asked a question on Quora about what
my parents did to me that was immoral or unfair, and my answer was
'nothing.'  I was the freest kid ever.  Went everywhere on bikes and buses,
etc.

I then reckoned that maybe that is what helped me to be a libertarian - no
authoritarianism in my upbringing.

So I just thought I'd invade your privacy and ask you what helped you
become a libertarian, as I suppose most of you are, and when it happened.
Few people just look at all the philosophies and pick one.

bill w
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From spike at rainier66.com  Sun Aug 26 18:25:31 2018
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2018 11:25:31 -0700
Subject: [ExI] playing psychologist
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEbosuOvYJzDrES0y0HSG+k71ue30Lc2M-seziMvTgmsSw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbosuOvYJzDrES0y0HSG+k71ue30Lc2M-seziMvTgmsSw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00a601d43d6a$2d07a350$8716e9f0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace
Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2018 10:14 AM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: [ExI] playing psychologist

 

Yes, I am going to play a bit.  I was asked a question on Quora about what my parents did to me that was immoral or unfair, and my answer was 'nothing.'  I was the freest kid ever.  Went everywhere on bikes and buses, etc.

 

I then reckoned that maybe that is what helped me to be a libertarian - no authoritarianism in my upbringing.

 

So I just thought I'd invade your privacy and ask you what helped you become a libertarian, as I suppose most of you are, and when it happened.  Few people just look at all the philosophies and pick one.

 

bill w        

 

 

 

First to your point of kids running free.  BillW, I was part of the biggest generation.  We never worried much about weirdos stealing kids: if they ever wanted to do that, there were plenty of them to choose from, hanging around everywhere.  Go outdoors in nearly any suburb like the one where I grew up, or even that one, and ask the obvious question: wheeeeere are all the children?  Why don?t we see them everywhere like we did back then?  Answer: they have a loooot better more fun stuff to do indoors, compared to when we were that age, when being indoors at home was playing Monopoly or watching Gilligan?s Island.

 

Today we have evolved into a society where it is functionally illegal to let children run free if you live in a safe neighborhood.  If you live in a dangerous neighborhood, then it is OK, but in safe neighborhoods, letting children run free is considered child endangerment.  In order to not face charges of child endangerment, they must run in dangerous neighborhoods.  

 

Evidence: go to Google street view, find a safe neighborhood.  No unattended children anywhere.  Find a dangerous neighborhood.  Children everywhere.

 

Do let us ignore for a moment the fact that the children are what make the neighborhoods dangerous.

 

With regard to how I came to be a libertarian: recognize that there are multiple brands of libertarian, which are incompatible.  Just as the two US mainstream parties are loose coalitions both in the process of fracturing, libertarians have always been a group of incompatible notions.

 

My brand of libertarians learned what a marvelous system the framers of the US constitution invented.  Get a union of states, which are independent governments working together for a common military.  Much outside of that, the federal government isn?t asked to do much and isn?t really allowed to.  This sets up a bunch of competing governments, with varying level and techniques, experimenting, down were most of the heavy lifting of government takes place.  That is how it should be: most governing is done at the state level.  The feds take care of the military, the National Parks, make trade deals, etc.  The rest of the governing is done by states.

 

spike

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From lubkin at unreasonable.com  Sun Aug 26 18:36:12 2018
From: lubkin at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin)
Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2018 14:36:12 -0400
Subject: [ExI] playing psychologist
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEbosuOvYJzDrES0y0HSG+k71ue30Lc2M-seziMvTgmsSw@mail.g
 mail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbosuOvYJzDrES0y0HSG+k71ue30Lc2M-seziMvTgmsSw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <201808261836.w7QIaOgZ007791@anath.zia.io>

William Flynn Wallace wrote:

>So I just thought I'd invade your privacy and ask you what helped 
>you become a libertarian, as I suppose most of you are, and when it 
>happened.  Few people just look at all the philosophies and pick one.

To the extent that label accurately describes me:

1. Robert Heinlein
2. chafing at my father's harsh rules and penalties
3. living five years in a socialist country
4. Spock


-- David.



From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sun Aug 26 19:02:27 2018
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2018 14:02:27 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Declining Life Expectancies in U.K & U.S
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv1EuZxXLDmGnoAPaGntCw=U-jRRX4Yr2r51oWTRaXOJ2Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <655B0A2B-7DC5-415F-9ABB-B51D70308516@gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1EuZxXLDmGnoAPaGntCw=U-jRRX4Yr2r51oWTRaXOJ2Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYPkTYqt=XJ79VYheJ+e8L2LZ+g=SgO+-vpXq++kDrjkA@mail.gmail.com>

Drug abuse has something to do with it. The rate of drug overdose deaths in
2016 was 3 times what it was in 1999 and it's growing fast, the 2016 rate
was 21% higher than the 2015 rate.

And the increase in the number of suicides  clark


Yeah, but I'll bet both of them together don't amount to a hill of beans
compared to people dying of diabetes and other woes cause by diet.


bill w


On Sun, Aug 26, 2018 at 11:38 AM, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

> Drug abuse has something to do with it. The rate of drug overdose deaths
> in 2016 was 3 times what it was in 1999 and it's growing fast, the 2016
> rate was 21% higher than the 2015 rate.
>
> And the increase in the number of suicides  certainly has something to do
> with it too, since 1999 the rate has increased in 49 out of 50 states and
> is now the 10th leading cause of death, you're more than twice as likely to
> kill yourself than to get murdered. The 5 states with the highest suicide
> rates are in order, Montana,  Alaska , Wyoming, New Mexico and Utah. The 5
> states with the lowest suicide rates are in order, California, Connecticut,
> Maryland, Massachusetts, New York and New Jersey.  Washington DC has a
> lower suicide rate than any state.
>
> It's interesting that the suicide rate in Wyoming is 2.5 times what it is
> in California. If I were still allowed to make political comments I'd say
> the democrats seem to be making people happier than the republicans, but
> I'm not so I won't.
>
>  John K Clark
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From sen.otaku at gmail.com  Sun Aug 26 19:10:09 2018
From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard)
Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2018 14:10:09 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Declining Life Expectancies in U.K & U.S
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv1EuZxXLDmGnoAPaGntCw=U-jRRX4Yr2r51oWTRaXOJ2Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <655B0A2B-7DC5-415F-9ABB-B51D70308516@gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1EuZxXLDmGnoAPaGntCw=U-jRRX4Yr2r51oWTRaXOJ2Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABf9QbC+PP-xC2VAmgHKzCJQvBeqU7auRrZLd_t=nN_zuEZaSg@mail.gmail.com>

Let's compare the rate of homicide and the rate of suicide in the United
States.



(apologies for the awkward addition of 2015)

1950: 13.2 Suicide, 4.6 Homicide
1960: 12.5, 5.1
1970: 13.1, 7.9
1980: 12.2, 10.2
1990: 12.5, 9.4
2000: 10.4, 5.5
2010: 12.1, 4.8
2015: 13.3, 4.9

We can clearly see that suicide has always outpaced homicide rates. 2015
rates are very similar to 1950's rates. Comparing beginning in 1999 takes a
look at a "short-term" trend in the graph.

Perhaps a better question would be what created this dip? Is it healthy?
Can we do it again?

And what can we do to prevent another crime wave like the one we apparently
had 1970-1990?

https://www.infoplease.com/us/crime/homicide-rate-1950-2014
https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2015/crime-in-the-u.s.
-2015/tables/table-1
https://www.statista.com/statistics/187465/death-rate-
from-suicide-in-the-us-since-1950/

Now, the suicide rate in the United States would seem to be correlated with
gun ownership/availability. 50% of all suicides in the United States are
accomplished with guns. Therefore, it would make sense that Democratic
states, having stricter gun laws and lower gun ownership, would have lower
suicide rates. So there are perhaps some hidden variables here that are not
directly related to "satisfaction with politicians".

>From the data, we can see that you've always been more likely to kill
yourself than to be killed by someone else.

On Sun, Aug 26, 2018 at 11:38 AM, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

> Drug abuse has something to do with it. The rate of drug overdose deaths
> in 2016 was 3 times what it was in 1999 and it's growing fast, the 2016
> rate was 21% higher than the 2015 rate.
>
> And the increase in the number of suicides  certainly has something to do
> with it too, since 1999 the rate has increased in 49 out of 50 states and
> is now the 10th leading cause of death, you're more than twice as likely to
> kill yourself than to get murdered. The 5 states with the highest suicide
> rates are in order, Montana,  Alaska , Wyoming, New Mexico and Utah. The 5
> states with the lowest suicide rates are in order, California, Connecticut,
> Maryland, Massachusetts, New York and New Jersey.  Washington DC has a
> lower suicide rate than any state.
>
> It's interesting that the suicide rate in Wyoming is 2.5 times what it is
> in California. If I were still allowed to make political comments I'd say
> the democrats seem to be making people happier than the republicans, but
> I'm not so I won't.
>
>  John K Clark
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From sen.otaku at gmail.com  Sun Aug 26 19:33:32 2018
From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard)
Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2018 14:33:32 -0500
Subject: [ExI] playing psychologist
In-Reply-To: <00a601d43d6a$2d07a350$8716e9f0$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbosuOvYJzDrES0y0HSG+k71ue30Lc2M-seziMvTgmsSw@mail.gmail.com>
 <00a601d43d6a$2d07a350$8716e9f0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CABf9QbDhkjbdNFNi-CBq5YzH9+-TSN6Yy9E--coK_nNy4o3Hgw@mail.gmail.com>

>
> Yes, I am going to play a bit.  I was asked a question on Quora about what
> my parents did to me that was immoral or unfair, and my answer was
> 'nothing.'  I was the freest kid ever.  Went everywhere on bikes and buses,
> etc.
>
>
>
> I then reckoned that maybe that is what helped me to be a libertarian - no
> authoritarianism in my upbringing.
>
>
>
> So I just thought I'd invade your privacy and ask you what helped you
> become a libertarian, as I suppose most of you are, and when it happened.
> Few people just look at all the philosophies and pick one.
>
>
>
> bill w
>
>
>
>
>
> First to your point of kids running free.  BillW, I was part of the
> biggest generation.  We never worried much about weirdos stealing kids: if
> they ever wanted to do that, there were plenty of them to choose from,
> hanging around everywhere.  Go outdoors in nearly any suburb like the one
> where I grew up, or even that one, and ask the obvious question: wheeeeere
> are all the children?  Why don?t we see them everywhere like we did back
> then?  Answer: they have a loooot better more fun stuff to do indoors,
> compared to when we were that age, when being indoors at home was playing
> Monopoly or watching Gilligan?s Island.
>
>
>
> spike
>

My upbringing was almost directly opposite of this. I was never allowed
outside unless physically supervised but had a mother who was (is)
extremely agoraphobic. To the point where she will struggle to get the
mail. But, being raised very nearly close to true poverty, I had nothing:
no toys, no games. I was also forbidden to watch television. Having no
siblings I did not play with anyone. It was difficult to go to the library
with a mother afraid of the outdoors, so I would read all my school
textbooks and daydream, perform thought experiments, etc.

I don't know if I fit exactly into 'libertarian' because there are so many
competing definitions, some of which I agree with and others which I don't.
But I do think that my political philosophy was shaped a lot by my
upbringing and the friends of my parents. My parents are social democrats,
but most of their friends, (and my friends in school) are anarchists. I
tend to think, in the absence of clear and present danger, that there don't
really need to be restrictions on things. I think a lot of things which are
currently illegal should instead come down to personal responsibility.
However, I also think that things which involve the public trust need to be
taken more seriously and treated more harshly.

For example, should slapping or punching someone (when it does not lead to
any injury at all) actually be a crime? Sure it's anti-social and you
shouldn't do it, but does it really need to be something that will land you
in jail? Or does heroin really need to be illegal? Sure, it's bad for you
and you shouldn't use it, but how does prison time do anything for you?

At the same time, figures of public trust, such as cops, firefighters,
politicians, doctors, teachers, religious figures etc have the public
trust, and I feel like they should be punished for violating it. Such as
firemen stealing, cops abusing, politicians accepting bribes,
doctors/teachers/religious figures molesting. When these types of figures
abuse the public trust, they do a great injury to society as a whole.

And again, some libertarians I know what to dismantle and privatize
EVERYTHING which I just can't get behind. Pay a toll to walk on the
sidewalk? Privatized CDC? I mean, I think it's a bit too much. I think that
there is a place for "public works" and a place for private business, there
is a place for regulation and for individual judgment, a place for social
responsibility and individual responsibility.

But I also think that as automation and AI increase that social safety nets
are both more viable and important. If a robot can do everything from "go"
to "final product", then using money for basic needs such as housing, food,
clothing, etc, seems silly. There would be no more jobs if robots could do
everything, but people would still have needs.

So, to put it a long way, I don't think I count as a libertarian, but I do
think that my upbringing had a profound effect on my political outlook.
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Sun Aug 26 20:18:04 2018
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2018 16:18:04 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Declining Life Expectancies in U.K & U.S
In-Reply-To: <CABf9QbC+PP-xC2VAmgHKzCJQvBeqU7auRrZLd_t=nN_zuEZaSg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <655B0A2B-7DC5-415F-9ABB-B51D70308516@gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1EuZxXLDmGnoAPaGntCw=U-jRRX4Yr2r51oWTRaXOJ2Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABf9QbC+PP-xC2VAmgHKzCJQvBeqU7auRrZLd_t=nN_zuEZaSg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv27A_RjEsajjngCBRACmPp_wdnht0JYkBtTZYcybzAY3A@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Aug 26, 2018 at 3:16 PM SR Ballard <sen.otaku at gmail.com> wrote:

>
> *Perhaps a better question would be what created this dip?*


I don't know. Bill Clinton?

John K Clark
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sun Aug 26 20:41:31 2018
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2018 15:41:31 -0500
Subject: [ExI] playing psychologist
In-Reply-To: <CABf9QbDhkjbdNFNi-CBq5YzH9+-TSN6Yy9E--coK_nNy4o3Hgw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbosuOvYJzDrES0y0HSG+k71ue30Lc2M-seziMvTgmsSw@mail.gmail.com>
 <00a601d43d6a$2d07a350$8716e9f0$@rainier66.com>
 <CABf9QbDhkjbdNFNi-CBq5YzH9+-TSN6Yy9E--coK_nNy4o3Hgw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEa=F9uz3-6f1xcF_v72dNDJQPRr-MdKB96m7ktMfcO00g@mail.gmail.com>

ballard wrote -
I tend to think, in the absence of clear and present danger, that there
don't really need to be restrictions on things. I think a lot of things
which are currently illegal should instead come down to personal
responsibility. However, I also think that things which involve the public
trust need to be taken more seriously and treated more harshly.

For example, should slapping or punching someone (when it does not lead to
any injury at all) actually be a crime? Sure it's anti-social and you
shouldn't do it, but does it really need to be something that will land you
in jail? Or does heroin really need to be illegal? Sure, it's bad for you
and you shouldn't use it, but how does prison time do anything for you?

I just have this one question for anarchists:  if you are totally opposed
to socialism in any form, then we have to get rid of police departments,
fire departments, street, food inspection and dozens more (yeah, there are
probably more than a few we could eliminate without endangering anyone).
These are not the kind of socialistic things that force all sorts of things
on people - they are just people voting to be taxed to get these things
done without having to do them yourself.  Public safety, in other words.

Re heroin and other drugs - I used to all for total personal responsibility
and no laws at all about what one can put in one's body, who one can have
sex with, and all the rest.  I have changed just a bit as a result of my
early career in clinical psych:  there are drugs, and I would include
heroin, crack, and meth, that are just too potent and too many
irresponsible people who would not only ruin their own lives, but the lives
of their spouses and children.  I hate making them illegal, but there is
just too much temptation for many people.  And I would not put people in
jail for distribution or usage:  I would make therapy and education
mandatory, though.  Repeated arrests could result in having to do public
works after work or on weekends.

bill w

On Sun, Aug 26, 2018 at 2:33 PM, SR Ballard <sen.otaku at gmail.com> wrote:

> Yes, I am going to play a bit.  I was asked a question on Quora about what
>> my parents did to me that was immoral or unfair, and my answer was
>> 'nothing.'  I was the freest kid ever.  Went everywhere on bikes and buses,
>> etc.
>>
>>
>>
>> I then reckoned that maybe that is what helped me to be a libertarian -
>> no authoritarianism in my upbringing.
>>
>>
>>
>> So I just thought I'd invade your privacy and ask you what helped you
>> become a libertarian, as I suppose most of you are, and when it happened.
>> Few people just look at all the philosophies and pick one.
>>
>>
>>
>> bill w
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> First to your point of kids running free.  BillW, I was part of the
>> biggest generation.  We never worried much about weirdos stealing kids: if
>> they ever wanted to do that, there were plenty of them to choose from,
>> hanging around everywhere.  Go outdoors in nearly any suburb like the one
>> where I grew up, or even that one, and ask the obvious question: wheeeeere
>> are all the children?  Why don?t we see them everywhere like we did back
>> then?  Answer: they have a loooot better more fun stuff to do indoors,
>> compared to when we were that age, when being indoors at home was playing
>> Monopoly or watching Gilligan?s Island.
>>
>>
>>
>> spike
>>
>
> My upbringing was almost directly opposite of this. I was never allowed
> outside unless physically supervised but had a mother who was (is)
> extremely agoraphobic. To the point where she will struggle to get the
> mail. But, being raised very nearly close to true poverty, I had nothing:
> no toys, no games. I was also forbidden to watch television. Having no
> siblings I did not play with anyone. It was difficult to go to the library
> with a mother afraid of the outdoors, so I would read all my school
> textbooks and daydream, perform thought experiments, etc.
>
> I don't know if I fit exactly into 'libertarian' because there are so many
> competing definitions, some of which I agree with and others which I don't.
> But I do think that my political philosophy was shaped a lot by my
> upbringing and the friends of my parents. My parents are social democrats,
> but most of their friends, (and my friends in school) are anarchists. I
> tend to think, in the absence of clear and present danger, that there don't
> really need to be restrictions on things. I think a lot of things which are
> currently illegal should instead come down to personal responsibility.
> However, I also think that things which involve the public trust need to be
> taken more seriously and treated more harshly.
>
> For example, should slapping or punching someone (when it does not lead to
> any injury at all) actually be a crime? Sure it's anti-social and you
> shouldn't do it, but does it really need to be something that will land you
> in jail? Or does heroin really need to be illegal? Sure, it's bad for you
> and you shouldn't use it, but how does prison time do anything for you?
>
> At the same time, figures of public trust, such as cops, firefighters,
> politicians, doctors, teachers, religious figures etc have the public
> trust, and I feel like they should be punished for violating it. Such as
> firemen stealing, cops abusing, politicians accepting bribes,
> doctors/teachers/religious figures molesting. When these types of figures
> abuse the public trust, they do a great injury to society as a whole.
>
> And again, some libertarians I know what to dismantle and privatize
> EVERYTHING which I just can't get behind. Pay a toll to walk on the
> sidewalk? Privatized CDC? I mean, I think it's a bit too much. I think that
> there is a place for "public works" and a place for private business, there
> is a place for regulation and for individual judgment, a place for social
> responsibility and individual responsibility.
>
> But I also think that as automation and AI increase that social safety
> nets are both more viable and important. If a robot can do everything from
> "go" to "final product", then using money for basic needs such as housing,
> food, clothing, etc, seems silly. There would be no more jobs if robots
> could do everything, but people would still have needs.
>
> So, to put it a long way, I don't think I count as a libertarian, but I do
> think that my upbringing had a profound effect on my political outlook.
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Sun Aug 26 21:05:44 2018
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2018 17:05:44 -0400
Subject: [ExI] playing psychologist
In-Reply-To: <00a601d43d6a$2d07a350$8716e9f0$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbosuOvYJzDrES0y0HSG+k71ue30Lc2M-seziMvTgmsSw@mail.gmail.com>
 <00a601d43d6a$2d07a350$8716e9f0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv18RBF0pObeTuwx5BcYwuJVXznjEksQHzZDYvTihV26xw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Aug 26, 2018 at 2:28 PM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:

*>I just thought I'd invade your privacy and ask you what helped you become
> a libertarian,*


My libertarianism (
the philosophy not the party
) goes back even further than my atheism, before I was 12 I was more
religious than most.
I don't remember anyone telling me but but from the first time I head the
word "democracy" I somehow  got the idea
it meant you could do anything you wanted as long as it didn't hurt anybody
else, it made sense to me so I just assumed that's the way the USA
operated. It took me a embarrassingly long time but when I discovered
that's not what the word means and is certainly not the way the laws of the
USA work I felt a combination of surprise and outrage. I'm no longer
surprised but I'm still outraged.


 John K Clark
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From frankmac at ripco.com  Sun Aug 26 22:26:58 2018
From: frankmac at ripco.com (frank mcelligott)
Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2018 15:26:58 -0700
Subject: [ExI] John Clarke
Message-ID: <2F61F91555424E269397DC79B8EB6E98@MININTPNDT1SD>

In 1997 I had a heart attack. And John Clarke was on this list. I asked this list if they knew what I should do, and the list replied Dean Ornish.   Stop the red meat and give up coffee too, And I survived.  Thank you List. Then I read a book recommended by John Clarke, which changed the way I  viewed the world.  Thank you John.  My concern with the latest  discussion is that it has a tone that has a direction toward anarchy.  To many smart people here for that to happen, but it is happening.  I am hoping it does not, as it has kept me alive,  allow me to see the world as it is, and opened my mind to many many  ideas I would never had gotten to by myself.

Next subject  ok

Frank
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From sen.otaku at gmail.com  Sun Aug 26 23:16:49 2018
From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard)
Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2018 18:16:49 -0500
Subject: [ExI] playing psychologist
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEa=F9uz3-6f1xcF_v72dNDJQPRr-MdKB96m7ktMfcO00g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbosuOvYJzDrES0y0HSG+k71ue30Lc2M-seziMvTgmsSw@mail.gmail.com>
 <00a601d43d6a$2d07a350$8716e9f0$@rainier66.com>
 <CABf9QbDhkjbdNFNi-CBq5YzH9+-TSN6Yy9E--coK_nNy4o3Hgw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEa=F9uz3-6f1xcF_v72dNDJQPRr-MdKB96m7ktMfcO00g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABf9QbCmbhqQsujeFg0N+-ZzaGvvgkA9rab6UopLLhxqkuVvdQ@mail.gmail.com>

>
>
>
> I just have this one question for anarchists:  if you are totally opposed
> to socialism in any form, then we have to get rid of police departments,
> fire departments, street, food inspection and dozens more (yeah, there are
> probably more than a few we could eliminate without endangering anyone).
> These are not the kind of socialistic things that force all sorts of things
> on people - they are just people voting to be taxed to get these things
> done without having to do them yourself.  Public safety, in other words.
>
> Re heroin and other drugs - I used to all for total personal
> responsibility and no laws at all about what one can put in one's body, who
> one can have sex with, and all the rest.  I have changed just a bit as a
> result of my early career in clinical psych:  there are drugs, and I would
> include heroin, crack, and meth, that are just too potent and too many
> irresponsible people who would not only ruin their own lives, but the lives
> of their spouses and children.  I hate making them illegal, but there is
> just too much temptation for many people.  And I would not put people in
> jail for distribution or usage:  I would make therapy and education
> mandatory, though.  Repeated arrests could result in having to do public
> works after work or on weekends.
>
> bill w
>

Most anarchists I know are for the abolition of govt police, govt firemen,
govt inspection of food, etc. The replacement for these things varies. And
I personally don't find it realisitic. But that's why I'm not an anarchist.

I just don't understand how/why people would choose to use meth, heroin,
etc just because they were legal. There's no sudden incentive to use them.
They're stil as horrible and destructive as they ever were. The problem
with making them illegal is that there are things attatched to that -- a
criminal record. They are convicted of use/distrobution. Even if we made it
so that it was just theraphy and education, it would still be a criminal
record. And at least in our modern world, that creates a lot of problems,
lots of jobs that now, you can never ever have. Even if it became a
misdeminor instead of a felony, that's still a lot of closed doors.

Ballard
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From interzone at gmail.com  Sun Aug 26 23:21:01 2018
From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio)
Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2018 19:21:01 -0400
Subject: [ExI] John Clarke
In-Reply-To: <2F61F91555424E269397DC79B8EB6E98@MININTPNDT1SD>
References: <2F61F91555424E269397DC79B8EB6E98@MININTPNDT1SD>
Message-ID: <CAJrqPH-1SjY=3-3bsZ8VMtns9B2Qoj8X7ncnPpgqjXbEU+YQkg@mail.gmail.com>

Would you mind sharing the title of the book?

On Sun, Aug 26, 2018, 6:31 PM frank mcelligott <frankmac at ripco.com> wrote:

> In 1997 I had a heart attack. And John Clarke was on this list. I asked
> this list if they knew what I should do, and the list replied Dean
> Ornish.   Stop the red meat and give up coffee too, And I survived.  Thank
> you List. Then I read a book recommended by John Clarke, which changed the
> way I  viewed the world.  Thank you John.  My concern with the latest
> discussion is that it has a tone that has a direction toward anarchy.  To
> many smart people here for that to happen, but it is happening.  I am
> hoping it does not, as it has kept me alive,  allow me to see the world as
> it is, and opened my mind to many many  ideas I would never had gotten to
> by myself.
>
> Next subject  ok
>
> Frank
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Mon Aug 27 00:48:10 2018
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2018 19:48:10 -0500
Subject: [ExI] playing psychologist
In-Reply-To: <CABf9QbCmbhqQsujeFg0N+-ZzaGvvgkA9rab6UopLLhxqkuVvdQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbosuOvYJzDrES0y0HSG+k71ue30Lc2M-seziMvTgmsSw@mail.gmail.com>
 <00a601d43d6a$2d07a350$8716e9f0$@rainier66.com>
 <CABf9QbDhkjbdNFNi-CBq5YzH9+-TSN6Yy9E--coK_nNy4o3Hgw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEa=F9uz3-6f1xcF_v72dNDJQPRr-MdKB96m7ktMfcO00g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABf9QbCmbhqQsujeFg0N+-ZzaGvvgkA9rab6UopLLhxqkuVvdQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEaMeFeYPY_ysOQTAx3h0LhHVeksAMRJqSuT4s-e=LBOaA@mail.gmail.com>

 Even if we made it so that it was just theraphy and education, it would
still be a criminal record. And at least in our modern world, that creates
a lot of problems, lots of jobs that now, you can never ever have. Even if
it became a misdeminor instead of a felony, that's still a lot of closed
doors.

Ballard
But now you are talking about something fixable.  Just change the laws so
there's no criminal record.  Some places are doing that for the addicts.
Give them a ticket,like a speeding ticket, to make the appear at a clinic.
There have to be plenty of good ideas out there that are better than mine
and what we have now.

bill w

On Sun, Aug 26, 2018 at 6:16 PM, SR Ballard <sen.otaku at gmail.com> wrote:

>
>>
>> I just have this one question for anarchists:  if you are totally opposed
>> to socialism in any form, then we have to get rid of police departments,
>> fire departments, street, food inspection and dozens more (yeah, there are
>> probably more than a few we could eliminate without endangering anyone).
>> These are not the kind of socialistic things that force all sorts of things
>> on people - they are just people voting to be taxed to get these things
>> done without having to do them yourself.  Public safety, in other words.
>>
>> Re heroin and other drugs - I used to all for total personal
>> responsibility and no laws at all about what one can put in one's body, who
>> one can have sex with, and all the rest.  I have changed just a bit as a
>> result of my early career in clinical psych:  there are drugs, and I would
>> include heroin, crack, and meth, that are just too potent and too many
>> irresponsible people who would not only ruin their own lives, but the lives
>> of their spouses and children.  I hate making them illegal, but there is
>> just too much temptation for many people.  And I would not put people in
>> jail for distribution or usage:  I would make therapy and education
>> mandatory, though.  Repeated arrests could result in having to do public
>> works after work or on weekends.
>>
>> bill w
>>
>
> Most anarchists I know are for the abolition of govt police, govt firemen,
> govt inspection of food, etc. The replacement for these things varies. And
> I personally don't find it realisitic. But that's why I'm not an anarchist.
>
> I just don't understand how/why people would choose to use meth, heroin,
> etc just because they were legal. There's no sudden incentive to use them.
> They're stil as horrible and destructive as they ever were. The problem
> with making them illegal is that there are things attatched to that -- a
> criminal record. They are convicted of use/distrobution. Even if we made it
> so that it was just theraphy and education, it would still be a criminal
> record. And at least in our modern world, that creates a lot of problems,
> lots of jobs that now, you can never ever have. Even if it became a
> misdeminor instead of a felony, that's still a lot of closed doors.
>
> Ballard
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From sen.otaku at gmail.com  Mon Aug 27 01:30:27 2018
From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard)
Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2018 20:30:27 -0500
Subject: [ExI] playing psychologist
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEaMeFeYPY_ysOQTAx3h0LhHVeksAMRJqSuT4s-e=LBOaA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbosuOvYJzDrES0y0HSG+k71ue30Lc2M-seziMvTgmsSw@mail.gmail.com>
 <00a601d43d6a$2d07a350$8716e9f0$@rainier66.com>
 <CABf9QbDhkjbdNFNi-CBq5YzH9+-TSN6Yy9E--coK_nNy4o3Hgw@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CABf9QbDyJ7nUQicYhCnf7j7LmdhMth43Ofs9Aqan4ypibXz8kw@mail.gmail.com>

>  Even if we made it so that it was just theraphy and education, it would
> still be a criminal record. And at least in our modern world, that creates
> a lot of problems, lots of jobs that now, you can never ever have. Even if
> it became a misdeminor instead of a felony, that's still a lot of closed
> doors.
>
> Ballard
> But now you are talking about something fixable.  Just change the laws so
> there's no criminal record.  Some places are doing that for the addicts.
> Give them a ticket,like a speeding ticket, to make the appear at a clinic.
> There have to be plenty of good ideas out there that are better than mine
> and what we have now.
>
> bill w
>

I didn't realize that was possible, but I think that's a good way to do it.
It only turns into a criminal record if you are non-compliant.

ballard
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From lubkin at unreasonable.com  Mon Aug 27 01:36:27 2018
From: lubkin at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin)
Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2018 21:36:27 -0400
Subject: [ExI] playing psychologist
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEa=F9uz3-6f1xcF_v72dNDJQPRr-MdKB96m7ktMfcO00g@mail.g
 mail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbosuOvYJzDrES0y0HSG+k71ue30Lc2M-seziMvTgmsSw@mail.gmail.com>
 <00a601d43d6a$2d07a350$8716e9f0$@rainier66.com>
 <CABf9QbDhkjbdNFNi-CBq5YzH9+-TSN6Yy9E--coK_nNy4o3Hgw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEa=F9uz3-6f1xcF_v72dNDJQPRr-MdKB96m7ktMfcO00g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <201808270136.w7R1able011793@anath.zia.io>

William Flynn Wallace wrote:

>there are drugs, and I would include heroin, crack, and meth, that 
>are just too potent and too many irresponsible people who would not 
>only ruin their own lives, but the lives of their spouses and 
>children.  I hate making them illegal, but there is just too much 
>temptation for many people.  And I would not put people in jail for 
>distribution or usage:  I would make therapy and education 
>mandatory, though.  Repeated arrests could result in having to do 
>public works after work or on weekends.

What is the difference between those drugs and alcohol? Too many 
irresponsible people ruin their own lives, and the lives of their 
spouses and children.

As we punish people for the bad consequences of their inappropriate 
drinking choices, but not for drinking per se, so we should punish 
people for their drug-taking choices.

I make sober choices about alcohol. Mostly to rarely drink any. And 
were those drugs without legal consequences for use per se, I would 
make similar choices. Likely to never have any of them.

I've noticed we have an awful lot of rules because a handful of 
people don't behave. Most people don't shoplift, hijack planes, or 
kidnap children from playgrounds. Let's find ways not to treat them 
like they do.


-- David.



From steinberg.will at gmail.com  Mon Aug 27 03:46:01 2018
From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg)
Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2018 23:46:01 -0400
Subject: [ExI] playing psychologist
In-Reply-To: <201808270136.w7R1able011793@anath.zia.io>
References: <CAO+xQEbosuOvYJzDrES0y0HSG+k71ue30Lc2M-seziMvTgmsSw@mail.gmail.com>
 <00a601d43d6a$2d07a350$8716e9f0$@rainier66.com>
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Message-ID: <CAKrqSyHCsqP9qF=o13fMqLUZOJXU-ZT-z58yyBcLcHhUmzJkfg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Aug 26, 2018 at 9:38 PM David Lubkin <lubkin at unreasonable.com>
wrote:

> What is the difference between those drugs and alcohol? Too many
> irresponsible people ruin their own lives, and the lives of their
> spouses and children.
>

I've noticed we have an awful lot of rules because a handful of
> people don't behave.
>

Sorry, but you don't understand.

Should we make it legal to own nuclear bombs?  How about .50 caliber
machine guns?  Or, what about sarin?  Sell it at 7/11?

The issue of legalization is a complicated one, and I used to lean towards
the 'legalize everything' viewpoint, but it is a silly, pie-in-the-sky
teenage anarchist dream.  Murder isn't legal.  Some things--like
murder--SHOULD be illegal; I think most of us would agree on that.

Heroin, meth, and crack are very dangerous to have around a normal
population, sorry to say.  I don't believe they should be legal, and I also
believe I have more experience with the matter than you do.  Not to be
overly critical, but legalizing everything ever is a nebulous and dangerous
viewpoint.
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From sen.otaku at gmail.com  Mon Aug 27 04:51:00 2018
From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard)
Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2018 23:51:00 -0500
Subject: [ExI] playing psychologist
In-Reply-To: <CAKrqSyHCsqP9qF=o13fMqLUZOJXU-ZT-z58yyBcLcHhUmzJkfg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbosuOvYJzDrES0y0HSG+k71ue30Lc2M-seziMvTgmsSw@mail.gmail.com>
 <00a601d43d6a$2d07a350$8716e9f0$@rainier66.com>
 <CABf9QbDhkjbdNFNi-CBq5YzH9+-TSN6Yy9E--coK_nNy4o3Hgw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEa=F9uz3-6f1xcF_v72dNDJQPRr-MdKB96m7ktMfcO00g@mail.gmail.com>
 <201808270136.w7R1able011793@anath.zia.io>
 <CAKrqSyHCsqP9qF=o13fMqLUZOJXU-ZT-z58yyBcLcHhUmzJkfg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABf9QbCkMqPvkR3yqB755TjkAU3Vt-mjOxSKCRKdByneT=X=5g@mail.gmail.com>

>
> Should we make it legal to own nuclear bombs?  How about .50 caliber
>> machine guns?  Or, what about sarin?  Sell it at 7/11?
>
>
Well, 50 cal machiene guns manufactured before the 1980s are actually legal
in my state (Texas), as far as I can tell.

But I think there is a difference beween nukes (kill millions potentially),
sarin (kill thousands potentially), 50 cal machiene guns (kill hundreds
potentially), and hard drugs. If one were manufacturing drugs, it might be
possible to kill a few dozen, the same if one were high. I mean, they
clearly ruin lives, kill people, and destroy families. I'm not saying that
they're safe or fun recreational items. They are incredibly addictive and
destructive, both to mental and physical health, as well as quality of
life.

But even if they should be illegal (which I would support under the
"threatened compliance" model above), they're not really comparable in
destructive power to nukes or sarin. A case could be made for comparing
them to 50 cal machiene guns though.
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From lubkin at unreasonable.com  Mon Aug 27 12:58:28 2018
From: lubkin at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin)
Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2018 08:58:28 -0400
Subject: [ExI] playing psychologist
In-Reply-To: <CAKrqSyHCsqP9qF=o13fMqLUZOJXU-ZT-z58yyBcLcHhUmzJkfg@mail.g
 mail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbosuOvYJzDrES0y0HSG+k71ue30Lc2M-seziMvTgmsSw@mail.gmail.com>
 <00a601d43d6a$2d07a350$8716e9f0$@rainier66.com>
 <CABf9QbDhkjbdNFNi-CBq5YzH9+-TSN6Yy9E--coK_nNy4o3Hgw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEa=F9uz3-6f1xcF_v72dNDJQPRr-MdKB96m7ktMfcO00g@mail.gmail.com>
 <201808270136.w7R1able011793@anath.zia.io>
 <CAKrqSyHCsqP9qF=o13fMqLUZOJXU-ZT-z58yyBcLcHhUmzJkfg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <201808271258.w7RCwdXB025386@anath.zia.io>

I wrote:

>What is the difference between those drugs and 
>alcohol? Too many irresponsible people ruin 
>their own lives, and the lives of their spouses and children.

Will Steinberg replied:

>Sorry, but you don't understand.
>
>Should we make it legal to own nuclear 
>bombs?  How about .50 caliber machine guns?  Or, 
>what about sarin?  Sell it at 7/11?
>
>The issue of legalization is a complicated one, 
>and I used to lean towards the 'legalize 
>everything' viewpoint, but it is a silly, 
>pie-in-the-sky teenage anarchist dream.  Murder 
>isn't legal.  Some things--like murder--SHOULD 
>be illegal; I think most of us would agree on that.

You're changing the subject to a strawman. I made 
a direct comparison between two different 
categories of ingested substances. One that is 
legal and ruins or ends far more lives than the ones that are illegal.

>Heroin, meth, and crack are very dangerous to 
>have around a normal population, sorry to say.

So are cars. So is alcohol. Especially the 
combination. And we make it legal for people to 
manufacture, sell, possess, and use both 
products. We constrain who can, based primarily 
on age. We recognize that the combination is a 
danger point, and are tough on people who use them both at the same time.

Heroin per se?i.e., sans adulterants?is, AFIAK, 
safer and less addictive than tobacco. I've heard 
for at least forty years the accounts of people 
who were addicted to both, who said smoking was much harder to quit.

Meth is prescribed in the US as a Class II 
pharmaceutical. Heroin is prescribed in the UK as 
a Class A drug.  It is particularly used for 
palliative care of terminal patients there, and 
certainly should be permitted for that use in the US.

Now, you haven't mentioned cocaine (also Class 
II). Are you okay with its joining marijuana or 
do you see it as an implicit precursor to crack?

>I don't believe they should be legal, and I also 
>believe I have more experience with the matter than you do.

Appeal to authority is also a fallacious 
argument. And "trust me, I know more" makes it even more fallacious.

If you know more, then stick to the subject and 
argue with evidence and rigor. Everyone here is 
smart, numeric, and capable of rigor.

In *my* experience?discussing the merits of SDI 
with the inventor of the hydrogen bomb, the 
merits of bridge vs. chess with a world champion, 
the mass production of observational spacecraft 
with an eminent space scientist, etc.?actual 
experts can make their case. And don't mind doing 
so with someone who is civil, intelligent, and genuinely interested.

>   Not to be overly critical, but legalizing 
> everything ever is a nebulous and dangerous viewpoint.

And it's not one I advanced. You did.


-- David.





From hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu  Mon Aug 27 13:08:32 2018
From: hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu (Henry Rivera)
Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2018 09:08:32 -0400
Subject: [ExI] playing psychologist
In-Reply-To: <201808271258.w7RCwdXB025386@anath.zia.io>
References: <CAO+xQEbosuOvYJzDrES0y0HSG+k71ue30Lc2M-seziMvTgmsSw@mail.gmail.com>
 <00a601d43d6a$2d07a350$8716e9f0$@rainier66.com>
 <CABf9QbDhkjbdNFNi-CBq5YzH9+-TSN6Yy9E--coK_nNy4o3Hgw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEa=F9uz3-6f1xcF_v72dNDJQPRr-MdKB96m7ktMfcO00g@mail.gmail.com>
 <201808270136.w7R1able011793@anath.zia.io>
 <CAKrqSyHCsqP9qF=o13fMqLUZOJXU-ZT-z58yyBcLcHhUmzJkfg@mail.gmail.com>
 <201808271258.w7RCwdXB025386@anath.zia.io>
Message-ID: <ABE93926-CC6D-46B8-B5FA-359812CA7E24@alumni.virginia.edu>

Great points Dave. 
And can we stop pretending that crack is worse than cocaine or that meth is worse than Adderal? They are chemically the same. 

> On Aug 27, 2018, at 8:58 AM, David Lubkin <lubkin at unreasonable.com> wrote:
> 
> I wrote:
> 
>> What is the difference between those drugs and alcohol? Too many irresponsible people ruin their own lives, and the lives of their spouses and children.
> 
> Will Steinberg replied:
> 
>> Sorry, but you don't understand.
>> 
>> Should we make it legal to own nuclear bombs?  How about .50 caliber machine guns?  Or, what about sarin?  Sell it at 7/11?
>> 
>> The issue of legalization is a complicated one, and I used to lean towards the 'legalize everything' viewpoint, but it is a silly, pie-in-the-sky teenage anarchist dream.  Murder isn't legal.  Some things--like murder--SHOULD be illegal; I think most of us would agree on that.
> 
> You're changing the subject to a strawman. I made a direct comparison between two different categories of ingested substances. One that is legal and ruins or ends far more lives than the ones that are illegal.
> 
>> Heroin, meth, and crack are very dangerous to have around a normal population, sorry to say.
> 
> So are cars. So is alcohol. Especially the combination. And we make it legal for people to manufacture, sell, possess, and use both products. We constrain who can, based primarily on age. We recognize that the combination is a danger point, and are tough on people who use them both at the same time.
> 
> Heroin per se?i.e., sans adulterants?is, AFIAK, safer and less addictive than tobacco. I've heard for at least forty years the accounts of people who were addicted to both, who said smoking was much harder to quit.
> 
> Meth is prescribed in the US as a Class II pharmaceutical. Heroin is prescribed in the UK as a Class A drug.  It is particularly used for palliative care of terminal patients there, and certainly should be permitted for that use in the US.
> 
> Now, you haven't mentioned cocaine (also Class II). Are you okay with its joining marijuana or do you see it as an implicit precursor to crack?
> 
>> I don't believe they should be legal, and I also believe I have more experience with the matter than you do.
> 
> Appeal to authority is also a fallacious argument. And "trust me, I know more" makes it even more fallacious.
> 
> If you know more, then stick to the subject and argue with evidence and rigor. Everyone here is smart, numeric, and capable of rigor.
> 
> In *my* experience?discussing the merits of SDI with the inventor of the hydrogen bomb, the merits of bridge vs. chess with a world champion, the mass production of observational spacecraft with an eminent space scientist, etc.?actual experts can make their case. And don't mind doing so with someone who is civil, intelligent, and genuinely interested.
> 
>>  Not to be overly critical, but legalizing everything ever is a nebulous and dangerous viewpoint.
> 
> And it's not one I advanced. You did.
> 
> 
> -- David.
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat



From foozler83 at gmail.com  Mon Aug 27 14:08:06 2018
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2018 09:08:06 -0500
Subject: [ExI] playing psychologist
In-Reply-To: <ABE93926-CC6D-46B8-B5FA-359812CA7E24@alumni.virginia.edu>
References: <CAO+xQEbosuOvYJzDrES0y0HSG+k71ue30Lc2M-seziMvTgmsSw@mail.gmail.com>
 <00a601d43d6a$2d07a350$8716e9f0$@rainier66.com>
 <CABf9QbDhkjbdNFNi-CBq5YzH9+-TSN6Yy9E--coK_nNy4o3Hgw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEa=F9uz3-6f1xcF_v72dNDJQPRr-MdKB96m7ktMfcO00g@mail.gmail.com>
 <201808270136.w7R1able011793@anath.zia.io>
 <CAKrqSyHCsqP9qF=o13fMqLUZOJXU-ZT-z58yyBcLcHhUmzJkfg@mail.gmail.com>
 <201808271258.w7RCwdXB025386@anath.zia.io>
 <ABE93926-CC6D-46B8-B5FA-359812CA7E24@alumni.virginia.edu>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbBpq1d6t6S_uVd14LB4RKCZwD33Q03BHBat_VOYjDwWQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Aug 27, 2018 at 8:08 AM, Henry Rivera <hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu>
wrote:

> Great points Dave.
> And can we stop pretending that crack is worse than cocaine or that meth
> is worse than Adderal? They are chemically the same.  I made a direct
> comparison between two different categories of ingested substances. One
> that is legal and ruins or ends far more lives than the ones that are
> illegal.


The difference is needing a prescription.  If crack is not more addictive
then why do they make it?

Yes, we  all know that if you wanted to make one drug illegal out of
alcohol, tobacco, and pot, it would not be pot - safest drug there is,
although anything that messes with our minds is not totally safe.

What can we ban and still call ourselves a free society and remain
consistent with libertarian principles?

True - tobacco is worse than anything I know to quit (I quit both tobacco
and alcohol, and the latter was even easy - but I cannot say that quitting
tobacco was very hard - it was not, and I smoked two packs a day)  Pot is
not addictive.  Maybe if we make it legal and raise taxes on tobacco and
alcohol some people will transition to it.

I do not believe in what someone called an implicit precursor.  One drug
does not lead to another.  Now some people will want to try anything once
they find out that they can take stuff that creates a different mindset.
It's the person, not the drug.  Only 5% of pot users go on to heroin,
making the statistic 'nearly all heroin users start with pot' irrelevant
and very misleading.

Here is how to create billion dollar crime syndicates:  make something
people want illegal.  Like alcohol.  Then create federal agencies to stop
it, which was very expensive and did not work well.  Now we have the same
thing again.  Is anyone thinking that the DEA has made much difference in
the drug trade?  And has cost us many billions.

One solution:  make them all legal and use the money for treatment, just
like the users were experiencing a health problem, which many are.

bill w

> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > extropy-chat mailing list
> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu  Mon Aug 27 14:18:08 2018
From: hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu (Henry Rivera)
Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2018 10:18:08 -0400
Subject: [ExI] playing psychologist
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEbBpq1d6t6S_uVd14LB4RKCZwD33Q03BHBat_VOYjDwWQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbosuOvYJzDrES0y0HSG+k71ue30Lc2M-seziMvTgmsSw@mail.gmail.com>
 <00a601d43d6a$2d07a350$8716e9f0$@rainier66.com>
 <CABf9QbDhkjbdNFNi-CBq5YzH9+-TSN6Yy9E--coK_nNy4o3Hgw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEa=F9uz3-6f1xcF_v72dNDJQPRr-MdKB96m7ktMfcO00g@mail.gmail.com>
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 <201808271258.w7RCwdXB025386@anath.zia.io>
 <ABE93926-CC6D-46B8-B5FA-359812CA7E24@alumni.virginia.edu>
 <CAO+xQEbBpq1d6t6S_uVd14LB4RKCZwD33Q03BHBat_VOYjDwWQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E1A76A90-80A6-4994-87D1-443258EDBED8@alumni.virginia.edu>



> On Aug 27, 2018, at 10:08 AM, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> If crack is not more addictive then why do they make it?

Just to produce a different kind of high. It is not more addictive. That was perpetrated as a misunderstanding at best, racism at worst. 
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From sparge at gmail.com  Mon Aug 27 14:26:04 2018
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2018 10:26:04 -0400
Subject: [ExI] playing psychologist
In-Reply-To: <ABE93926-CC6D-46B8-B5FA-359812CA7E24@alumni.virginia.edu>
References: <CAO+xQEbosuOvYJzDrES0y0HSG+k71ue30Lc2M-seziMvTgmsSw@mail.gmail.com>
 <00a601d43d6a$2d07a350$8716e9f0$@rainier66.com>
 <CABf9QbDhkjbdNFNi-CBq5YzH9+-TSN6Yy9E--coK_nNy4o3Hgw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEa=F9uz3-6f1xcF_v72dNDJQPRr-MdKB96m7ktMfcO00g@mail.gmail.com>
 <201808270136.w7R1able011793@anath.zia.io>
 <CAKrqSyHCsqP9qF=o13fMqLUZOJXU-ZT-z58yyBcLcHhUmzJkfg@mail.gmail.com>
 <201808271258.w7RCwdXB025386@anath.zia.io>
 <ABE93926-CC6D-46B8-B5FA-359812CA7E24@alumni.virginia.edu>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2cozVg5kdAC1qjCEOLqL0th3dBKp2NPZ2CWY3h9AsDaug@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Aug 27, 2018 at 9:10 AM Henry Rivera <hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu>
wrote:

>
> And can we stop pretending that crack is worse than cocaine or that meth
> is worse than Adderal? They are chemically the same.
>

They're not chemically the same. they're chemically similar.

-Dave
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From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Aug 27 14:31:09 2018
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2018 07:31:09 -0700
Subject: [ExI] focus
Message-ID: <00e901d43e12$998746e0$cc95d4a0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

There was some kind of video game contest where a guy started shooting up the place, killed a coupla fellers.

 

A video of the incident showed what a witness said: when the shooting started, plenty of the contestants never looked away from their screen.  In the news video, the shots can be heard in the background, people shrieking, but whoever had the camera never seemed to notice.

 

It caused me to ponder: until historically recent times, humans seldom (if ever) called upon their brains to do the kind of intense focus required for something like Mario Carts or Duke Nukem (see there, I show my age.)

 

We had in historical times battle, but that only happens in short episodes spaced far apart for typical soldiers.  Now we are raising a generation who can multitask effectively under fire, can laser focus on a video screen so completely that when actual shots are fired in the room, they can tune it out.  As far as I can tell, this phenom has only presented to this magnitude in the past 20 to 30 yrs.

 

spike

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From lubkin at unreasonable.com  Mon Aug 27 14:39:14 2018
From: lubkin at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin)
Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2018 10:39:14 -0400
Subject: [ExI] playing psychologist
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEbBpq1d6t6S_uVd14LB4RKCZwD33Q03BHBat_VOYjDwWQ@mail.g
 mail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbosuOvYJzDrES0y0HSG+k71ue30Lc2M-seziMvTgmsSw@mail.gmail.com>
 <00a601d43d6a$2d07a350$8716e9f0$@rainier66.com>
 <CABf9QbDhkjbdNFNi-CBq5YzH9+-TSN6Yy9E--coK_nNy4o3Hgw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEa=F9uz3-6f1xcF_v72dNDJQPRr-MdKB96m7ktMfcO00g@mail.gmail.com>
 <201808270136.w7R1able011793@anath.zia.io>
 <CAKrqSyHCsqP9qF=o13fMqLUZOJXU-ZT-z58yyBcLcHhUmzJkfg@mail.gmail.com>
 <201808271258.w7RCwdXB025386@anath.zia.io>
 <ABE93926-CC6D-46B8-B5FA-359812CA7E24@alumni.virginia.edu>
 <CAO+xQEbBpq1d6t6S_uVd14LB4RKCZwD33Q03BHBat_VOYjDwWQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <201808271439.w7REdLao019559@anath.zia.io>

William Flynn Wallace wrote:

>I do not believe in what someone called an implicit precursor.  One 
>drug does not lead to another.  Now some people will want to try 
>anything once they find out that they can take stuff that creates a 
>different mindset.  It's the person, not the drug.  Only 5% of pot 
>users go on to heroin, making the statistic 'nearly all heroin users 
>start with pot' irrelevant and very misleading.

I was bringing up the question for Will of whether he felt that since 
his position is that crack should be banned as implicitly dangerous, 
therefore cocaine should be as well. Not because it was a behavioral 
precursor but because it's a *chemical precursor*. That is, you start 
with cocaine to make crack.

         cocaine + baking soda => crack + water + carbon dioxide + salt


-- David.



From johnkclark at gmail.com  Mon Aug 27 15:23:06 2018
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2018 11:23:06 -0400
Subject: [ExI] playing psychologist
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEa=F9uz3-6f1xcF_v72dNDJQPRr-MdKB96m7ktMfcO00g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbosuOvYJzDrES0y0HSG+k71ue30Lc2M-seziMvTgmsSw@mail.gmail.com>
 <00a601d43d6a$2d07a350$8716e9f0$@rainier66.com>
 <CABf9QbDhkjbdNFNi-CBq5YzH9+-TSN6Yy9E--coK_nNy4o3Hgw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEa=F9uz3-6f1xcF_v72dNDJQPRr-MdKB96m7ktMfcO00g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv36JKBCftvkThJ55=YdQxORUufKnShO7jAK_u+QTHe=sw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Aug 26, 2018 at 4:44 PM William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
wrote:

>
> I just have this one question for anarchists:  if you are totally opposed
> to socialism in any form, then we have to get rid of police departments,
> fire departments, street, food inspection and dozens more
>

At one time I was very big on Privately Produced Law and Private Protection
Agencies and I still think if we were starting from scratch that would be a
much better direction to go than where we are now, but the trouble is we
are very far from starting from scratch and once a standard has been
established its extremely difficult to change it. There is almost no chance
of completing such a radical change before the Singularity and without
copious amounts of blood flowing in the streets. So like it or not we're
pretty much stuck with the nation state system. Due to the vast amounts of
legacy software we can't switch to a brand new operating system at this
late date, so all we can do now is slap on the newest patch when things
crash and hope for the best.

>
> Re heroin and other drugs - I used to all for total personal
> responsibility and no laws at all about what one can put in one's body, who
> one can have sex with, and all the rest.  I have changed just a bit as a
> result of my early career in clinical psych:  there are drugs, and I would
> include heroin, crack, and meth, that are just too potent and too many
> irresponsible people who would not only ruin their own lives, but the lives
> of their spouses and children.  I hate making them illegal, but there is
> just too much temptation for many people.


But the choice isn't between people using dangerous drugs or making them
illegal because making them illegal will never stop people from using drugs
it just means you've abandoned the best way to regulate them and make a
very dangerous thing a little safer. I doubt there is a person on the
planet who would like to become a Heroin junkie but can't because he can't
find any Heroin due to it being illegal. And I've never even smoked a
marijuana cigarette but no drug relieves pain better than Heroin so I can
envision circumstances where it would be wise for me to become a junkie, if
I were diagnosed with terminal bone cancer for example. Thanks to the war
on drugs millions of people have died in far greater agony than was
necessary.

 John K Clark









>
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From lubkin at unreasonable.com  Mon Aug 27 15:59:24 2018
From: lubkin at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin)
Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2018 11:59:24 -0400
Subject: [ExI] playing psychologist
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv36JKBCftvkThJ55=YdQxORUufKnShO7jAK_u+QTHe=sw@mail.g
 mail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbosuOvYJzDrES0y0HSG+k71ue30Lc2M-seziMvTgmsSw@mail.gmail.com>
 <00a601d43d6a$2d07a350$8716e9f0$@rainier66.com>
 <CABf9QbDhkjbdNFNi-CBq5YzH9+-TSN6Yy9E--coK_nNy4o3Hgw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEa=F9uz3-6f1xcF_v72dNDJQPRr-MdKB96m7ktMfcO00g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv36JKBCftvkThJ55=YdQxORUufKnShO7jAK_u+QTHe=sw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <201808271559.w7RFxaeq024183@anath.zia.io>

John Clark wrote:

>At one time I was very big on Privately Produced 
>Law and Private Protection Agencies and I still 
>think if we were starting from scratch that 
>would be a much better direction to go than 
>where we are now, but the trouble is we are very 
>far from starting from scratch and once a 
>standard has been established its extremely 
>difficult to change it. There is almost no 
>chance of completing such a radical change 
>before the Singularity and without copious 
>amounts of blood flowing in the streets. So like 
>it or not we're pretty much stuck with the 
>nation state system. Due to the vast amounts of 
>legacy software we can't switch to a brand new 
>operating system at this late date, so all we 
>can do now is slap on the newest patch when 
>things crash and hope for the best.

I'm in the pragmatist column. I look at what has 
to be done in what order, what can be 
accomplished in today's realities, and how 
important a facet is. I don't fight every fight. 
And I'm okay with achieving "less bad" over not achieving anything.

I also think meta.

It seems to me that if you're hostile or uncivil 
to people, they stop listening. So nearly 
everywhere I am, and certainly everywhere I 
manage, the first rule is to encourage people to 
engage with each other with civility and the absence of hostility.

*Then*, once they're listening to each other (or 
to me), encourage rational, evidence-based, rigorous discussion.

Only then do I think there's a chance of 
persuading others or achieving working answers, 
especially on controversial matters.

(And I suddenly realize that this is an analog to 
a point Perry Metzger made decades ago?the 
farther your ideas are from the norm, the more 
important it is to couch it in a respectable, 
non-threatening fashion. He'd meant get a 
haircut, dress respectably, and speak grammatical 
English, but it may be even more important online.)

Without those two antecedents, it's just a waste 
of everyone's time. Some participants may get off on their self-righteousness.


-- David.




From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Aug 27 16:31:59 2018
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2018 09:31:59 -0700
Subject: [ExI] focus
In-Reply-To: <00e901d43e12$998746e0$cc95d4a0$@rainier66.com>
References: <00e901d43e12$998746e0$cc95d4a0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <012001d43e23$7b03c890$710b59b0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: spike at rainier66.com <spike at rainier66.com> 
Subject: focus

 

 

>?It caused me to ponder: until historically recent times, humans seldom (if ever) called upon their brains to do the kind of intense focus required for something like Mario Carts or Duke Nukem ?As far as I can tell, this phenom has only presented to this magnitude in the past 20 to 30 yrs.   spike

 

 

 

Then a subsequent thought occurred to me: the kinds of focus and mastery of multiple variables are exactly the skills needed in order to code worth half a damn.

 

Until pretty recently, children were never really given the kind of training necessary for them to develop into decent programmers.  Coders, what say ye?

 

spike

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From lubkin at unreasonable.com  Mon Aug 27 16:53:53 2018
From: lubkin at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin)
Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2018 12:53:53 -0400
Subject: [ExI] focus
In-Reply-To: <012001d43e23$7b03c890$710b59b0$@rainier66.com>
References: <00e901d43e12$998746e0$cc95d4a0$@rainier66.com>
 <012001d43e23$7b03c890$710b59b0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <201808271654.w7RGs5u1012260@anath.zia.io>

Spike wrote:

>Then a subsequent thought occurred to me: the kinds of focus and 
>mastery of multiple variables are exactly the skills needed in order 
>to code worth half a damn.
>
>Until pretty recently, children were never really given the kind of 
>training necessary for them to develop into decent 
>programmers.  Coders, what say ye?

There are many skills required to be good at programming. Essential 
ones that I think current kids are not taught is rigorous deductive 
reasoning, precision in thought, attention to detail, and objective 
consideration of evidence.


--  David.



From sen.otaku at gmail.com  Mon Aug 27 17:00:23 2018
From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard)
Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2018 12:00:23 -0500
Subject: [ExI] focus
In-Reply-To: <00e901d43e12$998746e0$cc95d4a0$@rainier66.com>
References: <00e901d43e12$998746e0$cc95d4a0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CABf9QbBTQTUKZ_X+FE90JJtcOESmAKNFL-DNDUR-Y-rvAfkuFA@mail.gmail.com>

>
> A video of the incident showed what a witness said: when the shooting
> started, plenty of the contestants never looked away from their screen.  In
> the news video, the shots can be heard in the background, people shrieking,
> but whoever had the camera never seemed to notice.
>

Well, to me, with friends who participate in such competitions, it doesn't
seem that far fetched, or strange even. Competitions of this type usually
work in a specific way and are trained in a specific way as well.

An important component to recognize is that basically 100% of the time, you
will see these kids wearing huge headphones. They are a point of pride, and
usually quite expensive. They will generally combine powerful noise
cancelling with strong speakers. And generally the sound piped into these
headphones will be quite loud. Very likely they could not physically hear
the gunshots. If they did, they would have been muffled and easily be
mistaken for something falling or breaking. They likely could not hear the
screaming, and if they could, they easily could have mistaken it for
cheering.

Additionally, they would not have been able to see people panicing or
running. They are seated in a way that makes it difficult (sometimes almost
impossible) to see the audience.

Imagine if you were in a sound proof room recording a heavy metal album,
with your back to the window. It's unlikely that you would notice a gunman
in the sound booth on the other side of the glass until it was all over.
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From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Aug 27 17:32:03 2018
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2018 10:32:03 -0700
Subject: [ExI] focus
In-Reply-To: <CABf9QbBTQTUKZ_X+FE90JJtcOESmAKNFL-DNDUR-Y-rvAfkuFA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <00e901d43e12$998746e0$cc95d4a0$@rainier66.com>
 <CABf9QbBTQTUKZ_X+FE90JJtcOESmAKNFL-DNDUR-Y-rvAfkuFA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <017f01d43e2b$dee87880$9cb96980$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of SR Ballard
Sent: Monday, August 27, 2018 10:00 AM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: Re: [ExI] focus

 

>>?A video of the incident showed what a witness said: when the shooting started, plenty of the contestants never looked away from their screen.  In the news video, the shots can be heard in the background, people shrieking, but whoever had the camera never seemed to notice.

 

>?Well, to me, with friends who participate in such competitions, it doesn't seem that far fetched, or strange even. Competitions of this type usually work in a specific way and are trained in a specific way as well. ? It's unlikely that you would notice a gunman in the sound booth on the other side of the glass until it was all over.  SR

 

 

 

SR the reason I take interest in all this: it points to the future of mass sports entertainment.

 

Consider a long time ago, during my own misspent youth.  Back in those days, there wasn?t much bandwidth: three TV channels (on a clear day (one otherwise)) and the radio.  The big sports were football and the 3 Bs: baseball, basketball and boxing.  Anyone, even little old ladies, could name the top competitors in those four big sports.

 

But now? many people can?t name the top competitors in those sports and it is hard to find people, even among the young and the restless, who can name any of the top boxers.

 

OK times change, we get that.

 

Why do they change?  Consider the potential by having each of the competitors wear what amounts to a ruggedized GoPro on his helmet or cap, so you can go in and watch the games from the point of view of any of your favorite competitors.  

 

NASCAR got it.  There was an exciting sport that is really kinda boring if all you can do is watch the cars go around the track from the grandstands.  But if you have a driver?s-eye view from any car, then it is very exciting.

 

So we could do that with any of the major sports (not exactly sure how with boxing and basketball, but we might be able to do it somehow.)

 

spike

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From sen.otaku at gmail.com  Mon Aug 27 18:10:09 2018
From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard)
Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2018 13:10:09 -0500
Subject: [ExI] focus
In-Reply-To: <017f01d43e2b$dee87880$9cb96980$@rainier66.com>
References: <00e901d43e12$998746e0$cc95d4a0$@rainier66.com>
 <CABf9QbBTQTUKZ_X+FE90JJtcOESmAKNFL-DNDUR-Y-rvAfkuFA@mail.gmail.com>
 <017f01d43e2b$dee87880$9cb96980$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CABf9QbBrt2vSLS83XL9qo4q9VeoZV8cFW98HvPSMECKgUiR0uQ@mail.gmail.com>

>
> Consider a long time ago, during my own misspent youth.  Back in those
> days, there wasn?t much bandwidth: three TV channels (on a clear day (one
> otherwise)) and the radio.  The big sports were football and the 3 Bs:
> baseball, basketball and boxing.  Anyone, even little old ladies, could
> name the top competitors in those four big sports.
>
>
>
> But now? many people can?t name the top competitors in those sports and it
> is hard to find people, even among the young and the restless, who can name
> any of the top boxers.
>
>
>
> OK times change, we get that.
>
>
>
> Why do they change?  Consider the potential by having each of the
> competitors wear what amounts to a ruggedized GoPro on his helmet or cap,
> so you can go in and watch the games from the point of view of any of your
> favorite competitors.
>
>
>
> NASCAR got it.  There was an exciting sport that is really kinda boring if
> all you can do is watch the cars go around the track from the grandstands.
> But if you have a driver?s-eye view from any car, then it is very exciting.
>
>
>
> So we could do that with any of the major sports (not exactly sure how
> with boxing and basketball, but we might be able to do it somehow.)
>
>
>
> spike
>

The way things are moving, I'm not sure if "player's viewpoint" is really
the way that these things will end up (or should end up) moving towards.

Take for example Twitch, which for a large portion of the millennial crowd
has replaced ESPN. eSports (for example League of Legends, CS:GO) are quite
popular, but it also includes other forms of gameplay such as blind let's
plays (bumbling around with no idea what you are supposed to do),
roleplaying runs, challenge runs (only use a sword), and speedruns (how
badly can you break game mechanics and still reach the objective, usually
finishing the game, in the shortest amount of time).

The popularity of eSports draws on the same original interest as sports,
involving skill. Let's plays and roleplays are usually centered around
parasocial relationships. Challenge runs and speedruns generally focus on a
combination of both skill and the parasocial aspect.

Additionally, YouTube has basically supplanted television, leading to a
real fractioning of both information and education content, and
increasingly content that blends the two. Some notable examples would be
unboxing video or a stationary haul video. These are quite popular and are
the intersection of vicarious interest and parasocial relationships. These
types of channels are notorious for their 'giveaway' videos, many of which
are actually faked, or otherwise pre-determined.

Instagram is another extension of this culture, in combination with
Twitter. They're basically a cross between a promotional ad and a gossip
column. On Instagram, again, the parasocial relationship dominates.

Plainly put, the future is parasocial.

I think the more proper (eventual) direction of sports is less real footage
from the first person perspective, but the emergence of a parasitic VR
version of the sport. Like other eSports, it will be composed of teams who
compete through VR rather than physically, and are watched either from
within the VR construct, or the more common "TC spectator" perspective,
complete with different artistic cuts to every imaginable angle and
perspective, with biometric data and the like, complete with commentators.

Now, physical sports probably won't die completely any time soon, but I
could reasonably expect they would try to do what you are imagining with
the first person views, but might also extend that to monitoring vitals and
some kind of motion capture technology. The recreations possible with such
technology, and the review of biometric data would be very welcome in my
age group, we would find it very interesting. The viewpoint of those things
being interesting is a function of the video game culture that we have
grown up in, where stats are very important.

Concerning boxing, perhaps small flexible cameras could be developed, or
another solution might be cameras on the ring itself. But classic boxing is
on the way out with MMA really replacing it.

Basketball is more difficult in my opinion, but it might be possible to see
things from the ball's perspective. And we already have backboard cameras
in many places.
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Mon Aug 27 19:30:59 2018
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2018 14:30:59 -0500
Subject: [ExI] focus
In-Reply-To: <CABf9QbBrt2vSLS83XL9qo4q9VeoZV8cFW98HvPSMECKgUiR0uQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <00e901d43e12$998746e0$cc95d4a0$@rainier66.com>
 <CABf9QbBTQTUKZ_X+FE90JJtcOESmAKNFL-DNDUR-Y-rvAfkuFA@mail.gmail.com>
 <017f01d43e2b$dee87880$9cb96980$@rainier66.com>
 <CABf9QbBrt2vSLS83XL9qo4q9VeoZV8cFW98HvPSMECKgUiR0uQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYEfPipt_4p+HzP6RR5w+CW1n43j_BmeiP6dy=i2iraLQ@mail.gmail.com>

There are many skills required to be good at programming. Essential ones
that I think current kids are not taught is rigorous deductive reasoning,
precision in thought, attention to detail, and objective consideration of
evidence.
--  David.

Why would you limit these skills to programmers?  These are the very
foundations of scientific thinking.  The bee in my bonnet several times in
this group has been to decry the absence of teaching thinking in school.
We teach superstitions practically from birth.  Should we wait until
college to provide means of disputing superstitions and religions?  Even
there I have seen curricula that are very wanting in such, unless the
principles are taught in science classes, which I certainly did ab ovo.

The reason for the lack of these classes must be the opposition of the
superstitious and religious - am I right?  They don't want any opposition
to their precious ideas and ways, since these were handed down by God.
Hence religion is not taught either.

It is a wonder to me that we get as many rational people as we do.  I had
one friend tell me that he never believed any of it, starting with Santa
Claus.  No one helped him - he just had a good brain and used it.

I have to wonder if societies in which religion is actively suppressed,
like China, have a larger percentage of young people who can think
correctly.  As a libertarian I am opposed to suppression, but the reasons
for it are sound.  I wonder about the outcome.

bill w


On Mon, Aug 27, 2018 at 1:10 PM, SR Ballard <sen.otaku at gmail.com> wrote:

> Consider a long time ago, during my own misspent youth.  Back in those
>> days, there wasn?t much bandwidth: three TV channels (on a clear day (one
>> otherwise)) and the radio.  The big sports were football and the 3 Bs:
>> baseball, basketball and boxing.  Anyone, even little old ladies, could
>> name the top competitors in those four big sports.
>>
>>
>>
>> But now? many people can?t name the top competitors in those sports and
>> it is hard to find people, even among the young and the restless, who can
>> name any of the top boxers.
>>
>>
>>
>> OK times change, we get that.
>>
>>
>>
>> Why do they change?  Consider the potential by having each of the
>> competitors wear what amounts to a ruggedized GoPro on his helmet or cap,
>> so you can go in and watch the games from the point of view of any of your
>> favorite competitors.
>>
>>
>>
>> NASCAR got it.  There was an exciting sport that is really kinda boring
>> if all you can do is watch the cars go around the track from the
>> grandstands.  But if you have a driver?s-eye view from any car, then it is
>> very exciting.
>>
>>
>>
>> So we could do that with any of the major sports (not exactly sure how
>> with boxing and basketball, but we might be able to do it somehow.)
>>
>>
>>
>> spike
>>
>
> The way things are moving, I'm not sure if "player's viewpoint" is really
> the way that these things will end up (or should end up) moving towards.
>
> Take for example Twitch, which for a large portion of the millennial crowd
> has replaced ESPN. eSports (for example League of Legends, CS:GO) are quite
> popular, but it also includes other forms of gameplay such as blind let's
> plays (bumbling around with no idea what you are supposed to do),
> roleplaying runs, challenge runs (only use a sword), and speedruns (how
> badly can you break game mechanics and still reach the objective, usually
> finishing the game, in the shortest amount of time).
>
> The popularity of eSports draws on the same original interest as sports,
> involving skill. Let's plays and roleplays are usually centered around
> parasocial relationships. Challenge runs and speedruns generally focus on a
> combination of both skill and the parasocial aspect.
>
> Additionally, YouTube has basically supplanted television, leading to a
> real fractioning of both information and education content, and
> increasingly content that blends the two. Some notable examples would be
> unboxing video or a stationary haul video. These are quite popular and are
> the intersection of vicarious interest and parasocial relationships. These
> types of channels are notorious for their 'giveaway' videos, many of which
> are actually faked, or otherwise pre-determined.
>
> Instagram is another extension of this culture, in combination with
> Twitter. They're basically a cross between a promotional ad and a gossip
> column. On Instagram, again, the parasocial relationship dominates.
>
> Plainly put, the future is parasocial.
>
> I think the more proper (eventual) direction of sports is less real
> footage from the first person perspective, but the emergence of a
> parasitic VR version of the sport. Like other eSports, it will be composed
> of teams who compete through VR rather than physically, and are watched
> either from within the VR construct, or the more common "TC spectator"
> perspective, complete with different artistic cuts to every imaginable
> angle and perspective, with biometric data and the like, complete with
> commentators.
>
> Now, physical sports probably won't die completely any time soon, but I
> could reasonably expect they would try to do what you are imagining with
> the first person views, but might also extend that to monitoring vitals and
> some kind of motion capture technology. The recreations possible with such
> technology, and the review of biometric data would be very welcome in my
> age group, we would find it very interesting. The viewpoint of those things
> being interesting is a function of the video game culture that we have
> grown up in, where stats are very important.
>
> Concerning boxing, perhaps small flexible cameras could be developed, or
> another solution might be cameras on the ring itself. But classic boxing is
> on the way out with MMA really replacing it.
>
> Basketball is more difficult in my opinion, but it might be possible to
> see things from the ball's perspective. And we already have backboard
> cameras in many places.
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Mon Aug 27 19:37:16 2018
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2018 14:37:16 -0500
Subject: [ExI] playing psychologist
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv36JKBCftvkThJ55=YdQxORUufKnShO7jAK_u+QTHe=sw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbosuOvYJzDrES0y0HSG+k71ue30Lc2M-seziMvTgmsSw@mail.gmail.com>
 <00a601d43d6a$2d07a350$8716e9f0$@rainier66.com>
 <CABf9QbDhkjbdNFNi-CBq5YzH9+-TSN6Yy9E--coK_nNy4o3Hgw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEa=F9uz3-6f1xcF_v72dNDJQPRr-MdKB96m7ktMfcO00g@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZYt-=DixtcH2QyWa=AMbYUticrChappScvtGxdpBkprw@mail.gmail.com>

no drug relieves pain better than Heroin so I can envision circumstances
where it would be wise for me to become a junkie, if I were diagnosed with
terminal bone cancer for example. Thanks to the war on drugs millions of
people have died in far greater agony than was necessary.

 John K Clark
I have read that fentanyl is many times stronger than heroin.

There was a case reported in our local paper about a young man who
committed suicide with his wife's help.  For some, probably criminal and
malpractive reason. his pain drugs were cut by 3/4ths.  He was in constant
agony.  I have to assume that the guidelines coming from the people who are
so rightly concerned about opiate addiction, have gone way too far and are
now throwing the baby out with the bathwater. I hope that happens to none
of us.

If it is, say to my wife, I will be down to the drug store with a gun, get
and hide the drugs she needs and surrender to the cops and have statements
ready for the press.  This is a morally insane situation.

bill w

On Mon, Aug 27, 2018 at 10:23 AM, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sun, Aug 26, 2018 at 4:44 PM William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >
>> I just have this one question for anarchists:  if you are totally opposed
>> to socialism in any form, then we have to get rid of police departments,
>> fire departments, street, food inspection and dozens more
>>
>
> At one time I was very big on Privately Produced Law and Private
> Protection Agencies and I still think if we were starting from scratch that
> would be a much better direction to go than where we are now, but the
> trouble is we are very far from starting from scratch and once a standard
> has been established its extremely difficult to change it. There is almost
> no chance of completing such a radical change before the Singularity and
> without copious amounts of blood flowing in the streets. So like it or not
> we're pretty much stuck with the nation state system. Due to the vast
> amounts of legacy software we can't switch to a brand new operating system
> at this late date, so all we can do now is slap on the newest patch when
> things crash and hope for the best.
>
> >
>> Re heroin and other drugs - I used to all for total personal
>> responsibility and no laws at all about what one can put in one's body, who
>> one can have sex with, and all the rest.  I have changed just a bit as a
>> result of my early career in clinical psych:  there are drugs, and I would
>> include heroin, crack, and meth, that are just too potent and too many
>> irresponsible people who would not only ruin their own lives, but the lives
>> of their spouses and children.  I hate making them illegal, but there is
>> just too much temptation for many people.
>
>
> But the choice isn't between people using dangerous drugs or making them
> illegal because making them illegal will never stop people from using drugs
> it just means you've abandoned the best way to regulate them and make a
> very dangerous thing a little safer. I doubt there is a person on the
> planet who would like to become a Heroin junkie but can't because he can't
> find any Heroin due to it being illegal. And I've never even smoked a
> marijuana cigarette but no drug relieves pain better than Heroin so I can
> envision circumstances where it would be wise for me to become a junkie, if
> I were diagnosed with terminal bone cancer for example. Thanks to the war
> on drugs millions of people have died in far greater agony than was
> necessary.
>
>  John K Clark
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From lubkin at unreasonable.com  Mon Aug 27 20:11:04 2018
From: lubkin at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin)
Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2018 16:11:04 -0400
Subject: [ExI] focus
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYEfPipt_4p+HzP6RR5w+CW1n43j_BmeiP6dy=i2iraLQ@mail.g
 mail.com>
References: <00e901d43e12$998746e0$cc95d4a0$@rainier66.com>
 <CABf9QbBTQTUKZ_X+FE90JJtcOESmAKNFL-DNDUR-Y-rvAfkuFA@mail.gmail.com>
 <017f01d43e2b$dee87880$9cb96980$@rainier66.com>
 <CABf9QbBrt2vSLS83XL9qo4q9VeoZV8cFW98HvPSMECKgUiR0uQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYEfPipt_4p+HzP6RR5w+CW1n43j_BmeiP6dy=i2iraLQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <201808272011.w7RKBFsx012741@anath.zia.io>

I wrote:

>There are many skills required to be good at programming. Essential 
>ones that I think current kids are not taught is [sic] rigorous 
>deductive reasoning, precision in thought, attention to detail, and 
>objective consideration of evidence.

Bill W replied:

>Why would you limit these skills to programmers?  These are the very 
>foundations of scientific thinking.

Uh, because I was answering Spike's question, which was solely about 
programmers....


-- David.





From sen.otaku at gmail.com  Mon Aug 27 21:46:38 2018
From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard)
Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2018 16:46:38 -0500
Subject: [ExI] focus
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYEfPipt_4p+HzP6RR5w+CW1n43j_BmeiP6dy=i2iraLQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <00e901d43e12$998746e0$cc95d4a0$@rainier66.com>
 <CABf9QbBTQTUKZ_X+FE90JJtcOESmAKNFL-DNDUR-Y-rvAfkuFA@mail.gmail.com>
 <017f01d43e2b$dee87880$9cb96980$@rainier66.com>
 <CABf9QbBrt2vSLS83XL9qo4q9VeoZV8cFW98HvPSMECKgUiR0uQ@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CABf9QbBe83mD9=D-hm1LqGADdycLftPCZ3AA5HaR8MCEt+jpZg@mail.gmail.com>

> The bee in my bonnet several times in this group has been to decry the
> absence of teaching thinking in school.  We teach superstitions practically
> from birth.  Should we wait until college to provide means of disputing
> superstitions and religions?  Even there I have seen curricula that are
> very wanting in such, unless the principles are taught in science classes,
> which I certainly did ab ovo.
>
> The reason for the lack of these classes must be the opposition of the
> superstitious and religious - am I right?  They don't want any opposition
> to their precious ideas and ways, since these were handed down by God.
> Hence religion is not taught either.
>
> It is a wonder to me that we get as many rational people as we do.  I had
> one friend tell me that he never believed any of it, starting with Santa
> Claus.  No one helped him - he just had a good brain and used it.
>
> I have to wonder if societies in which religion is actively suppressed,
> like China, have a larger percentage of young people who can think
> correctly.  As a libertarian I am opposed to suppression, but the reasons
> for it are sound.  I wonder about the outcome.
>
> bill w
>

I'm not sure if it can be really all be blamed on religion, though some
parts of it can.

For example, I believe that it was not legal to teach evolution fully in
the state where I went to High School. Our teacher covered it in just a few
sentences, and this is almost exactly what he said, "Now, I can't tell you
what to think or believe, but some people thinking that evolution is real.
Evolution is the idea that all species share common ancestors, and the one
farthest back is thought to be a single cell. Other people don't believe
this is true." And then we moved on and never spoke of it ever again. That
was my entire school education on evolution. I've recently been watching a
series tracing the evolution of humans through time. It's about episode 33
and we've just barely gotten to true mammals. I think it would have been
great educational material for High School students. Absolutely any doubts
I ever had about the system were cleared up, because it is specifically
designed to address creationist arguments. It's great stuff.  The lack of
education on evolution in schools is clearly guided by religious beliefs.

Another part of the educational system that suffers due to religious
beliefs is health education, such as sex education and reporductive health.
These were basically covered even less than evolution. Except a nice quip
by our ancient-man health teacher that condoms weren't even effective, so
it's not better than pulling out. Saying that to teenagers might as well
count as criminal irresponsibility.

But in general, I think that the function and structure fo the modern
public school system are more ideological and political in a secular way,
than in a religious one. It doesn't encourage critical and independent
thinking because it's not meant to. It's meant to get students to comply
and to buy into cultural (and economic) narratives. I think it serves,
generally, to create "sheep". I had the unfortnate experience of switching
schools in 10th grade and spending a semester in a "regular pace"
classroom. The class was learning to diagram sentences, and could not
identify verbs or nouns. I ended up helping my poor teacher by tutoring 1-2
students while she worked with others. Similarly, the students were just
now learning the "hamburger method" of writing a paragraph. It might also
be called the 5 sentence model of the paragraph. I would be so far ahead
and so bored in my math classes that I the teacher usually let me tutor one
of the weakest students so that I would not lose my mind. And these are
kids 1-2 years above me.

Also, many students are well below grade level, and have given up on
school. they are rowdy and difficult to focus or control. To teach children
critical thinking in a situation where a teacher barely has control of a
class and there is often violence and drugs in schools is to invite total
and complete chaos. I saw heroin in my school. I saw fights. We had kids
call in bomb threats. One year, the fire alarm was pulled over a dozen
times, just for fun. There were rats in the ceiling. Teachers had neither
the time, inclination, or ability to teach critical and independent
thinking.

So, I think that religion does play a part, but that the poor state of the
educational system is due more to secular ideological factors, and poor
overall school conditions.
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Mon Aug 27 23:33:24 2018
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2018 18:33:24 -0500
Subject: [ExI] focus
In-Reply-To: <CABf9QbBe83mD9=D-hm1LqGADdycLftPCZ3AA5HaR8MCEt+jpZg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <00e901d43e12$998746e0$cc95d4a0$@rainier66.com>
 <CABf9QbBTQTUKZ_X+FE90JJtcOESmAKNFL-DNDUR-Y-rvAfkuFA@mail.gmail.com>
 <017f01d43e2b$dee87880$9cb96980$@rainier66.com>
 <CABf9QbBrt2vSLS83XL9qo4q9VeoZV8cFW98HvPSMECKgUiR0uQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYEfPipt_4p+HzP6RR5w+CW1n43j_BmeiP6dy=i2iraLQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABf9QbBe83mD9=D-hm1LqGADdycLftPCZ3AA5HaR8MCEt+jpZg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZO0TZ0acRN=fj2tienujmu1Qd3dwbhPyuPy_s91OWr2A@mail.gmail.com>

I think that the function and structure of the modern public school system
are more ideological and political in a secular way, than in a religious
one. It doesn't encourage critical and independent thinking because it's
not meant to. It's meant to get students to comply and to buy into cultural
(and economic) narratives. I think it serves, generally, to create
"sheep".  ballard

I could not agree more.  And you have to remember that the school boards
were made up of the usual community people and I have to doubt if in most
places an atheist could be a member.  So, in a way, education was
religion-free and at the same time, strongly influenced by the religious
views of the board, who, in fact, are responsible to choosing the books
students get.

You have seen and maybe read in some of the books which attempt to inform
us of the history that was left out in our elementary and high school
classes.  Censorship as bad as any Communist country, I say.

I still love and admire Washington, Jefferson, Franklin - but they were not
perfect (though I cannot find much to say about Franklin in the negative,
and I tend to just disregard Jefferson's personal life).

I still want to know about China and their students.  I repeat from an
earlier post:  they have as many students studying English as we have
people.

On Mon, Aug 27, 2018 at 4:46 PM, SR Ballard <sen.otaku at gmail.com> wrote:

>
> The bee in my bonnet several times in this group has been to decry the
>> absence of teaching thinking in school.  We teach superstitions practically
>> from birth.  Should we wait until college to provide means of disputing
>> superstitions and religions?  Even there I have seen curricula that are
>> very wanting in such, unless the principles are taught in science classes,
>> which I certainly did ab ovo.
>>
>> The reason for the lack of these classes must be the opposition of the
>> superstitious and religious - am I right?  They don't want any opposition
>> to their precious ideas and ways, since these were handed down by God.
>> Hence religion is not taught either.
>>
>> It is a wonder to me that we get as many rational people as we do.  I had
>> one friend tell me that he never believed any of it, starting with Santa
>> Claus.  No one helped him - he just had a good brain and used it.
>>
>> I have to wonder if societies in which religion is actively suppressed,
>> like China, have a larger percentage of young people who can think
>> correctly.  As a libertarian I am opposed to suppression, but the reasons
>> for it are sound.  I wonder about the outcome.
>>
>> bill w
>>
>
> I'm not sure if it can be really all be blamed on religion, though some
> parts of it can.
>
> For example, I believe that it was not legal to teach evolution fully in
> the state where I went to High School. Our teacher covered it in just a few
> sentences, and this is almost exactly what he said, "Now, I can't tell you
> what to think or believe, but some people thinking that evolution is real.
> Evolution is the idea that all species share common ancestors, and the one
> farthest back is thought to be a single cell. Other people don't believe
> this is true." And then we moved on and never spoke of it ever again. That
> was my entire school education on evolution. I've recently been watching a
> series tracing the evolution of humans through time. It's about episode 33
> and we've just barely gotten to true mammals. I think it would have been
> great educational material for High School students. Absolutely any doubts
> I ever had about the system were cleared up, because it is specifically
> designed to address creationist arguments. It's great stuff.  The lack of
> education on evolution in schools is clearly guided by religious beliefs.
>
> Another part of the educational system that suffers due to religious
> beliefs is health education, such as sex education and reporductive health.
> These were basically covered even less than evolution. Except a nice quip
> by our ancient-man health teacher that condoms weren't even effective, so
> it's not better than pulling out. Saying that to teenagers might as well
> count as criminal irresponsibility.
>
> But in general, I think that the function and structure fo the modern
> public school system are more ideological and political in a secular way,
> than in a religious one. It doesn't encourage critical and independent
> thinking because it's not meant to. It's meant to get students to comply
> and to buy into cultural (and economic) narratives. I think it serves,
> generally, to create "sheep". I had the unfortnate experience of switching
> schools in 10th grade and spending a semester in a "regular pace"
> classroom. The class was learning to diagram sentences, and could not
> identify verbs or nouns. I ended up helping my poor teacher by tutoring 1-2
> students while she worked with others. Similarly, the students were just
> now learning the "hamburger method" of writing a paragraph. It might also
> be called the 5 sentence model of the paragraph. I would be so far ahead
> and so bored in my math classes that I the teacher usually let me tutor one
> of the weakest students so that I would not lose my mind. And these are
> kids 1-2 years above me.
>
> Also, many students are well below grade level, and have given up on
> school. they are rowdy and difficult to focus or control. To teach children
> critical thinking in a situation where a teacher barely has control of a
> class and there is often violence and drugs in schools is to invite total
> and complete chaos. I saw heroin in my school. I saw fights. We had kids
> call in bomb threats. One year, the fire alarm was pulled over a dozen
> times, just for fun. There were rats in the ceiling. Teachers had neither
> the time, inclination, or ability to teach critical and independent
> thinking.
>
> So, I think that religion does play a part, but that the poor state of the
> educational system is due more to secular ideological factors, and poor
> overall school conditions.
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From avant at sollegro.com  Mon Aug 27 23:13:45 2018
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2018 16:13:45 -0700
Subject: [ExI] focus
Message-ID: <274ceaea72ba72b1d91c66dac30e5000.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>

BillW wrote:

> Why would you limit these skills to programmers?? These are the very
> foundations of scientific thinking.? The bee in my bonnet several times
> in this group has been to decry the absence of teaching thinking in
> school.? We teach superstitions practically from birth.? Should we wait
> until college to provide means of disputing superstitions and religions??
> Even there I have seen curricula that are very wanting in such, unless
> the principles are taught in science classes, which I certainly did ab
> ovo.?? The reason for the lack of these classes must be the opposition of
> the superstitious and religious - am I right??

I am sure religion is a contributing factor at least historically but with
a nod to Chomsky, another factor would be the plutonomically-driven wealth
inequality.
For example, I would wager that in prestigious prep-schools such skills
ARE taught from an early age. However for those students in diploma-mill
public schools, rote-learning and teaching to the test are the rule of the
day.

This policy of teaching the masses what to think, instead of how to think,
is essential to the maintenance of wealth inequality. The plutonomy relies
on the vast herds of consumers never questioning the wisdom of going into
perpetual debt in order to finance the life-styles of the rich and famous.

But it's not just the churches and the schools, it is also the media. I
mean look at how Hollywood recycles the same stories through sequels and
remakes over and over like religious rituals. Look at the stories
themselves, wherein conflicts are largely resolved with violence with
heroes punching or shooting their problems away instead of using problem
solving skills to find win-win outcomes.

That is if you are lucky enough to get a coherent story at all in this day
and age of reality television where the media glorifies shallow people
being vapid on camera.

In fact, I can't think of any societal institution that promotes or
rewards critical thought, original ideas, or technological innovation
except in so far as they serve to make the rich richer and poor poorer.
Certainly not the government with its imposition of steep financial
barriers to entry into practically every industry with permits, licensure,
zoning, and regulatory approvals.


Stuart LaForge





From sen.otaku at gmail.com  Tue Aug 28 03:11:36 2018
From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard)
Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2018 22:11:36 -0500
Subject: [ExI] focus
In-Reply-To: <274ceaea72ba72b1d91c66dac30e5000.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
References: <274ceaea72ba72b1d91c66dac30e5000.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
Message-ID: <CABf9QbBXsNfVdk+4x-DTQXDs6ZHGaSMkTXtihXt2REPES_4-0g@mail.gmail.com>

>
> For example, I would wager that in prestigious prep-schools such skills
> ARE taught from an early age. However for those students in diploma-mill
> public schools, rote-learning and teaching to the test are the rule of the
> day.
>
> Stuart LaForge


The worst part is that they're starting to move away from rote memory, but
without replacing it with anything. For example I never had to learn the
dates of various historical occourances. This leads to all kinds of
confusions about history. Also, they've removed geography in the 3 states
where I went to school, so no one knows where anything is, and which famous
cities are in which countries. Some school districts are also trying to
move away from rote memory of even things like the multiplication tables.
Many science and math teachers will now provide formulas used during tests
for the students instead of having them memorize what they are.

 > I still want to know about China and their students.  I repeat from an
earlier post:  they have as many students studying English as we have
people.

Well, I only have annecdotal evidence, but it seems they absolutely treat
the classroom as a unit, teaching it as a unit. But based on the Chinese
tourists I met while in Japan, the following article puts its pretty well,
at least as far as math education. I can't speak about other subjects with
any degree of knowledge.

https://qz.com/939208/more-children-in-the-west-are-being-taught-math-using-chinas-fabled-slightly-brutal-mastery-method/
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From giulio at gmail.com  Tue Aug 28 13:44:39 2018
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2018 15:44:39 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Tales of the Turing Church: Book draft for early readers
Message-ID: <CAKTCJycM_=TrM_+O6Du2m1+aBAeU00fUr1xwnHQdWGKV6vS+VQ@mail.gmail.com>

Tales of the Turing Church: Book draft for early readers

I have completed a first draft of my book, ?Tales of the Turing
Church,? and I am now sharing the draft with early readers for
feedback...

https://turingchurch.net/tales-of-the-turing-church-book-draft-for-early-readers-dc6ef573c1fd



From foozler83 at gmail.com  Tue Aug 28 17:06:33 2018
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2018 12:06:33 -0500
Subject: [ExI] focus
In-Reply-To: <CABf9QbBXsNfVdk+4x-DTQXDs6ZHGaSMkTXtihXt2REPES_4-0g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <274ceaea72ba72b1d91c66dac30e5000.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
 <CABf9QbBXsNfVdk+4x-DTQXDs6ZHGaSMkTXtihXt2REPES_4-0g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZK6tnieKDrC1Kk-q1wRkx8-hbOedzKH3iw6mw887LSJw@mail.gmail.com>

stuart wrote - Many science and math teachers will now provide formulas
used during tests for the students instead of having them memorize what
they are.

My question, as always, is where are the data.  Education depts. in my
experience, love theories and hate collecting data on them.  For all we
know, memorizing multiplication tables is a bad idea; or it's a great
idea.  We cannot go by what we did and how we turned out.

Trouble is getting good data from experiments run by educators.

bill w

On Mon, Aug 27, 2018 at 10:11 PM, SR Ballard <sen.otaku at gmail.com> wrote:

> For example, I would wager that in prestigious prep-schools such skills
>> ARE taught from an early age. However for those students in diploma-mill
>> public schools, rote-learning and teaching to the test are the rule of the
>> day.
>>
>> Stuart LaForge
>
>
> The worst part is that they're starting to move away from rote memory, but
> without replacing it with anything. For example I never had to learn the
> dates of various historical occourances. This leads to all kinds of
> confusions about history. Also, they've removed geography in the 3 states
> where I went to school, so no one knows where anything is, and which famous
> cities are in which countries. Some school districts are also trying to
> move away from rote memory of even things like the multiplication tables.
> Many science and math teachers will now provide formulas used during tests
> for the students instead of having them memorize what they are.
>
>  > I still want to know about China and their students.  I repeat from an
> earlier post:  they have as many students studying English as we have
> people.
>
> Well, I only have annecdotal evidence, but it seems they absolutely treat
> the classroom as a unit, teaching it as a unit. But based on the Chinese
> tourists I met while in Japan, the following article puts its pretty well,
> at least as far as math education. I can't speak about other subjects with
> any degree of knowledge.
>
> https://qz.com/939208/more-children-in-the-west-are-
> being-taught-math-using-chinas-fabled-slightly-brutal-mastery-method/
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From sen.otaku at gmail.com  Tue Aug 28 18:07:24 2018
From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard)
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2018 13:07:24 -0500
Subject: [ExI] focus
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEZK6tnieKDrC1Kk-q1wRkx8-hbOedzKH3iw6mw887LSJw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <274ceaea72ba72b1d91c66dac30e5000.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
 <CABf9QbBXsNfVdk+4x-DTQXDs6ZHGaSMkTXtihXt2REPES_4-0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZK6tnieKDrC1Kk-q1wRkx8-hbOedzKH3iw6mw887LSJw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <EBD6A74E-2D37-4DAE-AED1-8CC911E876A0@gmail.com>


> Ballard wrote - Many science and math teachers will now provide formulas used during tests for the students instead of having them memorize what they are. 
> 
> My question, as always, is where are the data.  Education depts. in my experience, love theories and hate collecting data on them.  For all we know, memorizing multiplication tables is a bad idea; or it's a great idea.  We cannot go by what we did and how we turned out.
> 
> Trouble is getting good data from experiments run by educators.
> 
> bill w

My point is not that rote memory is better. I have no idea.

My point is that kinds are not taught how to actually figure out how to solve problems themselves (non-rote) or required to memorize the answer (rote). Even if one is inferior to the other, it?s still better than nothing.

Take for example this situation: 

You need to find the area of a triangle. 

A non-rote method would be to realize that you can turn the triangle into a square, and then find the area of the square. (Assuming you know how to find the area of a square).

A rote method would be memorizing ?A=1/2(bh), where b is the width of the triangle, and h is the height of the triangle.? 

The method that I see often is ?you take this number and put it here, that number and put it there, use your calculator and you?re good.? Kids don?t recognize the formula enough to know what goes where. They?ll for example put in the length of a side, because they don?t understand that the length of a side is not what is asked for. 

Or if, for example, given the length of the sides and their angles, cannot determine what base or the height are, and declare such questions impossible.

Yet, somehow they get passed through pre-algebra, were getting the length of one side and it?s adjacent angles should provide enough information to determine area... 

Multi-step problems which require this type of mastery are not used, students are spoon fed, and they still can?t pass because they have no clue what is happening.
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From ben at zaiboc.net  Tue Aug 28 18:07:35 2018
From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2018 19:07:35 +0100
Subject: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 179, Issue 25
In-Reply-To: <mailman.100.1535310180.6153.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.100.1535310180.6153.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <5B858F67.1030105@zaiboc.net>


> On Sat, Aug 25, 2018 at 8:56 PM Will Steinberg 
> <steinberg.will at gmail.com <mailto:steinberg.will at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> >
> /I like this list a lot and it's pretty crazy what the effect of these 
> political shitposts have been.  What happened to the awesome H+ list I 
> joined?  Can't we talk about uploading or/
> /Matryoshka Brains or lab-grown organs or metamaterials or anything 
> else??/


I totally agree. I expect this list to become 'American-Politics-Chat' 
every time a presidential election looms, but it seems to have become a 
consistent thing in recent times..

If anybody's interested, I can offer my own particular Transhumanist 
Hobbyhorse for discussion, which is the intersection of biology and 
engineering, specifically the design of human bodies to be much more fit 
for our needs. I'm envisaging a hybrid bio-synthetic body, and 
considering the various challenges involved. Although it would be just a 
stepping-stone on the way to better things for those that want them, it 
would also be a possible end-point for some folks, and a huge 
improvement on what we have now.

If this piques anyone's curiosity, take a look at 
https://hpluspedia.org/wiki/Human_Body_2.0. This is where I'm collecting 
my ideas together, and anyone with an interest and sensible ideas to 
contribute is welcome to join in.

-- 
Ben Zaiboc

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From avant at sollegro.com  Tue Aug 28 19:02:41 2018
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2018 12:02:41 -0700
Subject: [ExI] focus
In-Reply-To: <599170755.3988431.1535477201064@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <274ceaea72ba72b1d91c66dac30e5000.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
 <CABf9QbBXsNfVdk+4x-DTQXDs6ZHGaSMkTXtihXt2REPES_4-0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZK6tnieKDrC1Kk-q1wRkx8-hbOedzKH3iw6mw887LSJw@mail.gmail.com>
 <599170755.3988431.1535477201064@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <826212266a14c86381fe881b861aa58e.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>

Bill W wrote:


> stuart wrote -?Many science and math teachers will now provide formulas
> used during tests for the students instead of having them memorize what
> they are.

Actually I did not write that; SB Ballard did.

> My question, as always, is where are the data.? Education
> depts. in my experience, love theories and hate collecting data on them.?
> For all we know, memorizing multiplication tables is a bad idea; or it's
> a great idea.? We cannot go by what we did and how we turned out. Trouble
> is getting good data from experiments run by educators. bill w

Yes, I would agree with pretty much all of that. Educators typically
borrow a lot of theory from psychologists but are generally several years
behind. For example educators are still pretty keen on the sensory
learning styles such as visual, auditory, and kinetic despite these
concepts being borrowed from neurolinguistic programming which has largely
been discredited in psych circles.

But it is very challenging to educate students and ethically use them as
research subjects at the same time. The variability in students' natural
abilities make it difficult to set up proper control groups. Plus usually
the educators conducting the studies don't teach while those that teach
don't conduct research at least at the pre-university level.

So yes, it is difficult to get trustworthy data in education science.

Stuart LaForge



From foozler83 at gmail.com  Tue Aug 28 19:04:08 2018
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2018 14:04:08 -0500
Subject: [ExI] focus
In-Reply-To: <EBD6A74E-2D37-4DAE-AED1-8CC911E876A0@gmail.com>
References: <274ceaea72ba72b1d91c66dac30e5000.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
 <CABf9QbBXsNfVdk+4x-DTQXDs6ZHGaSMkTXtihXt2REPES_4-0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZK6tnieKDrC1Kk-q1wRkx8-hbOedzKH3iw6mw887LSJw@mail.gmail.com>
 <EBD6A74E-2D37-4DAE-AED1-8CC911E876A0@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZRLTN-N3M+_gdYeBWxw3+eT5r-mBXQgYv_evaqV6+O2w@mail.gmail.com>

I volunteered to help build a predator cage for a wild life rescue outfit.
I can do a bit of basic carpentry.  So I get there and there are two guys
dressed to kill in hammer belts etc.  I ask what I can do - build a door.
So I build a door.  They are standing in the middle of the area talking
about pi r squared and cubed and so on.  What does anything have to do with
circles, I think?  So I ask them what they are doing.  They want to
calculate the length of a board going from the wall to the rooftop.  So I
tell them about Pythagoras and wonder where they were in high school (and
did they get out of it?).
I learned this in 7th grade.

I guess this is common, eh?

bill w

On Tue, Aug 28, 2018 at 1:07 PM, SR Ballard <sen.otaku at gmail.com> wrote:

>
> Ballard wrote - Many science and math teachers will now provide formulas
> used during tests for the students instead of having them memorize what
> they are.
>
> My question, as always, is where are the data.  Education depts. in my
> experience, love theories and hate collecting data on them.  For all we
> know, memorizing multiplication tables is a bad idea; or it's a great
> idea.  We cannot go by what we did and how we turned out.
>
> Trouble is getting good data from experiments run by educators.
>
> bill w
>
>
> My point is not that rote memory is better. I have no idea.
>
> My point is that kinds are not taught how to actually figure out how to
> solve problems themselves (non-rote) or required to memorize the answer
> (rote). Even if one is inferior to the other, it?s still better than
> nothing.
>
> Take for example this situation:
>
> You need to find the area of a triangle.
>
> A non-rote method would be to realize that you can turn the triangle into
> a square, and then find the area of the square. (Assuming you know how to
> find the area of a square).
>
> A rote method would be memorizing ?A=1/2(bh), where b is the width of the
> triangle, and h is the height of the triangle.?
>
> The method that I see often is ?you take this number and put it here, that
> number and put it there, use your calculator and you?re good.? Kids don?t
> recognize the formula enough to know what goes where. They?ll for example
> put in the length of a side, because they don?t understand that the length
> of a side is not what is asked for.
>
> Or if, for example, given the length of the sides and their angles, cannot
> determine what base or the height are, and declare such questions
> impossible.
>
> Yet, somehow they get passed through pre-algebra, were getting the length
> of one side and it?s adjacent angles should provide enough information to
> determine area...
>
> Multi-step problems which require this type of mastery are not used,
> students are spoon fed, and they still can?t pass because they have no clue
> what is happening.
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From sen.otaku at gmail.com  Tue Aug 28 21:13:42 2018
From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard)
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2018 16:13:42 -0500
Subject: [ExI] focus
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEZRLTN-N3M+_gdYeBWxw3+eT5r-mBXQgYv_evaqV6+O2w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <274ceaea72ba72b1d91c66dac30e5000.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
 <CABf9QbBXsNfVdk+4x-DTQXDs6ZHGaSMkTXtihXt2REPES_4-0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZK6tnieKDrC1Kk-q1wRkx8-hbOedzKH3iw6mw887LSJw@mail.gmail.com>
 <EBD6A74E-2D37-4DAE-AED1-8CC911E876A0@gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZRLTN-N3M+_gdYeBWxw3+eT5r-mBXQgYv_evaqV6+O2w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7DC85AC5-1FA1-4B8B-BEDC-758E1FD1918A@gmail.com>


> I volunteered to help build a predator cage for a wild life rescue outfit.  I can do a bit of basic carpentry.  So I get there and there are two guys dressed to kill in hammer belts etc.  I ask what I can do - build a door.  So I build a door.  They are standing in the middle of the area talking about pi r squared and cubed and so on.  What does anything have to do with circles, I think?  So I ask them what they are doing.  They want to calculate the length of a board going from the wall to the rooftop.  So I tell them about Pythagoras and wonder where they were in high school (and did they get out of it?).
> I learned this in 7th grade.
> 
> I guess this is common, eh?  
> 
> bill w

So very extremely common. Volunteer a weekend as a tutor in a college and see where that ends you up. It?s eye opening.

Ballard
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From pharos at gmail.com  Tue Aug 28 21:14:31 2018
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2018 22:14:31 +0100
Subject: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 179, Issue 25
In-Reply-To: <5B858F67.1030105@zaiboc.net>
References: <mailman.100.1535310180.6153.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <5B858F67.1030105@zaiboc.net>
Message-ID: <CAL_armjSPNqU_vPonwmHcVW=JU4ugQntT4mV7sDmXb2_fbXiyQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 28 August 2018 at 19:07, Ben Zaiboc  wrote:
>
> If anybody's interested, I can offer my own particular Transhumanist
> Hobbyhorse for discussion, which is the intersection of biology and
> engineering, specifically the design of human bodies to be much more fit for
> our needs. I'm envisaging a hybrid bio-synthetic body, and considering the
> various challenges involved. Although it would be just a stepping-stone on
> the way to better things for those that want them, it would also be a
> possible end-point for some folks, and a huge improvement on what we have
> now.
>
> If this piques anyone's curiosity, take a look at
> https://hpluspedia.org/wiki/Human_Body_2.0. This is where I'm collecting my
> ideas together, and anyone with an interest and sensible ideas to contribute
> is welcome to join in.
>


Back in June 2018 BBC TV showed a 1hr 30m documentary about
redesigning the human body, with rather weird results.
An article describing the redesign is here:
<https://www.radiotimes.com/news/tv/2018-06-13/this-is-what-the-perfect-body-looks-like-according-to-science/>

The film is not currently available from the BBC, but a search offers
various download and torrent sites if you want to watch it.

BillK


From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Thu Aug 30 04:20:11 2018
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2018 21:20:11 -0700
Subject: [ExI] libertarians
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB411MWqBz_xbUwQGehtof6AA4i8nzADLwTXDXBCGeq5fw@mail.gmail.com>

David Lubkin <lubkin at unreasonable.com> wrote

> To the extent that label accurately describes me:

> 1. Robert Heinlein

The main branches of this tendency are those influenced by Heinlein
known as the Space Cadets, and those influenced by Rand, the
Randroids.

There is a tendency for the space cadets to be lower case libertarians.

Keith


From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Thu Aug 30 04:59:54 2018
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2018 21:59:54 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Electoral College and 1177 BCE
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB4YJfKBCNtkVWjb4O0vPhBvoa6+PwMJYef+tSM68Qs=GQ@mail.gmail.com>

Will Steinberg <steinberg.will at gmail.com> wrote

snip

> The current events are part of a LONG TERM PROBLEM THAT HAS BEEN EMERGING
> FOR A LONG TIME.

No kidding.  At least 300,000 years, and probably back to the earliest
days of chipping rock.

When humans figured out chipping rocks and fire we became the apex
predator.   Human populations grow and put pressure on people to move
if they can and kill neighbors if they can't.

The only thing that keeps "war mode" turned off is rising or at least
steady income per capita.  That's rare for any length of time in the
past.  Since the number of humans an environment can support is more
or less fixed (for a given technology level) before effective birth
control the population was kept down by wars (if something else didn't
get them first).

Since agriculture about doubled the fertility of women, that ushered
in close to constant fighting.  When a population sees a bleak future,
typically one of starvation, they would find irrational leaders
attractive.  Such leaders would take them into wars and that always
solved the ratio of humans to resources.  That certainly accounts for
most of the known wars in human history.

Relative to other places, China has excellent records of wars and
population unrest.  Sure enough, these episodes are highly correlated
with bad weather (determined from tree-ring data) that reduced the
food supply.

I suspect that the fall of the eastern Meditarian late bronze age
civilizations was primarily the result of a long-term drought.  That
could happen worldwide now if there is a big enough climate shift.

On the other hand, we might find a brand new way for our civilization
to fall apart.  Widespread computer and network failure might do it.
I wonder how close we would need to be to a GRB to wipe out the
technical infrastructure?

Keith


From msd001 at gmail.com  Thu Aug 30 14:32:33 2018
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2018 10:32:33 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Electoral College and 1177 BCE
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB4YJfKBCNtkVWjb4O0vPhBvoa6+PwMJYef+tSM68Qs=GQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB4YJfKBCNtkVWjb4O0vPhBvoa6+PwMJYef+tSM68Qs=GQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOJFdbJ=2yxp=j6915kdL_SKWJUV9fD_CTwof4rUmPFbAUpuyg@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 1:02 AM Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> wrote:

>
> On the other hand, we might find a brand new way for our civilization
> to fall apart.  Widespread computer and network failure might do it.
> I wonder how close we would need to be to a GRB to wipe out the
> technical infrastructure?
>
>
GRB or EMP, i think the probably of "war" spilling onto the technology
infrastructure is higher than xrisk from natural phenomena.

Maybe there doesn't even need to be a physical attack, memewars are pretty
effective too.
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From spike at rainier66.com  Thu Aug 30 16:31:29 2018
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2018 09:31:29 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Electoral College and 1177 BCE
In-Reply-To: <CAOJFdbJ=2yxp=j6915kdL_SKWJUV9fD_CTwof4rUmPFbAUpuyg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB4YJfKBCNtkVWjb4O0vPhBvoa6+PwMJYef+tSM68Qs=GQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOJFdbJ=2yxp=j6915kdL_SKWJUV9fD_CTwof4rUmPFbAUpuyg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <005401d4407e$e7aeda40$b70c8ec0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Mike Dougherty

Subject: Re: [ExI] Electoral College and 1177 BCE

 

On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 1:02 AM Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com <mailto:hkeithhenson at gmail.com> > wrote:


On the other hand, we might find a brand new way for our civilization
to fall apart.  Widespread computer and network failure might do it.
I wonder how close we would need to be to a GRB to wipe out the
technical infrastructure?

 

>?GRB or EMP, i think the probably of "war" spilling onto the technology infrastructure is higher than xrisk from natural phenomena.  

 

>?Maybe there doesn't even need to be a physical attack, memewars are pretty effective too?

 

 

 

Eh, memewars don?t really wreck stuff all that much.  It just causes us to be pissed off at each other.  That can be easily enough repaired, more easily than bombed out factories, destroyed infrastructure and farmland, crippled people.  With memewars, we have the option to just stop at any time, to become a memewar non-combatant, an option I chose some time ago.

 

spike

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From lubkin at unreasonable.com  Thu Aug 30 16:41:45 2018
From: lubkin at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin)
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2018 12:41:45 -0400
Subject: [ExI] libertarians
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB411MWqBz_xbUwQGehtof6AA4i8nzADLwTXDXBCGeq5fw@mail.g
 mail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB411MWqBz_xbUwQGehtof6AA4i8nzADLwTXDXBCGeq5fw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <201808301642.w7UGg2cU004345@anath.zia.io>

Keith Henson wrote:

>The main branches of this tendency are those influenced by Heinlein
>known as the Space Cadets, and those influenced by Rand, the
>Randroids.
>
>There is a tendency for the space cadets to be lower case libertarians.

I am unmistakably one of Heinlein's Children. 
It's irritating when someone dismisses anyone 
with a libertarian inclination as a Randroid. 
Excuse me, I'm not only not one?not that there's 
anything wrong with that?but I have never felt the urge to read her.

And, I confess, I am still amused by WFB's story about her.


-- David.




From spike at rainier66.com  Thu Aug 30 16:49:54 2018
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2018 09:49:54 -0700
Subject: [ExI] libertarians
In-Reply-To: <201808301642.w7UGg2cU004345@anath.zia.io>
References: <CAPiwVB411MWqBz_xbUwQGehtof6AA4i8nzADLwTXDXBCGeq5fw@mail.gmail.com>
 <201808301642.w7UGg2cU004345@anath.zia.io>
Message-ID: <008401d44081$7aa50160$6fef0420$@rainier66.com>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of
David Lubkin
Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2018 9:42 AM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: Re: [ExI] libertarians

>...I am unmistakably one of Heinlein's Children. 
It's irritating when someone dismisses anyone with a libertarian inclination
as a Randroid. 
Excuse me, I'm not only not one-not that there's anything wrong with
that-but I have never felt the urge to read her.

>...And, I confess, I am still amused by WFB's story about her.


-- David.


_______________________________________________


Rand had a resurgence of popularity in my circle of friends when I was in
high school in the late 70s.  I probably would have spent more time in her
written work had I not been swamped with other urgent responsibilities.

What is WFB's story about her?

spike



From lubkin at unreasonable.com  Thu Aug 30 17:05:35 2018
From: lubkin at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin)
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2018 13:05:35 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Electoral College and 1177 BCE
In-Reply-To: <005401d4407e$e7aeda40$b70c8ec0$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAPiwVB4YJfKBCNtkVWjb4O0vPhBvoa6+PwMJYef+tSM68Qs=GQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOJFdbJ=2yxp=j6915kdL_SKWJUV9fD_CTwof4rUmPFbAUpuyg@mail.gmail.com>
 <005401d4407e$e7aeda40$b70c8ec0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <201808301705.w7UH5pQj021535@anath.zia.io>

Spike wrote:

>Eh, memewars don't really wreck stuff all that much.  It just causes 
>us to be pissed off at each other.  That can be easily enough 
>repaired, more easily than bombed out factories, destroyed 
>infrastructure and farmland, crippled people.  With memewars, we 
>have the option to just stop at any time, to become a memewar 
>non-combatant, an option I chose some time ago.

I thought the reference was more to John Barnes's memewars, with One 
True and Resuna. In that future, which could lie ahead,  just 
stopping isn't an apparent choice. And those memewars could be plenty 
destructive.


-- David.



From lubkin at unreasonable.com  Thu Aug 30 17:11:06 2018
From: lubkin at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin)
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2018 13:11:06 -0400
Subject: [ExI] libertarians
In-Reply-To: <008401d44081$7aa50160$6fef0420$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAPiwVB411MWqBz_xbUwQGehtof6AA4i8nzADLwTXDXBCGeq5fw@mail.gmail.com>
 <201808301642.w7UGg2cU004345@anath.zia.io>
 <008401d44081$7aa50160$6fef0420$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <201808301711.w7UHBLn9017220@anath.zia.io>

Spike wrote:

>Rand had a resurgence of popularity in my circle of friends when I was in
>high school in the late 70s.  I probably would have spent more time in her
>written work had I not been swamped with other urgent responsibilities.
>
>What is WFB's story about her?

 From his 2008 book, Flying High: Remembering Barry Goldwater:

         Mises was the dean of the Austrian school of economics. 
Hitler, whom he fled in
         1934, must have been the only human being who ever 
intimidated Ludwig von Mises.
         He was a mountain of certitudes having to do with the proper 
organization of
         economic life. Ayn Rand, born in St. Petersburg on the eve 
of the Soviet
         Revolution, was herself a center of social discipline, with 
whom one differed
         only at the risk of lifelong excommunication from her 
kingdom of free creatures,
         who lived by her (their) word, in the creation and 
re-creation of life, as it
         emerged in *Atlas Shrugged*.

         The story went that at this little dinner, Rand contradicted 
Mises on some
         doctrinal point, causing the eminent professor to stop 
eating and mobilize his
         scorn and fury on her. Ayn Rand thereupon burst into tears 
and exclaimed,
         "You are treating me like an ignorant little Jewish girl!"

         Mises jumped up from his chair with joy. "That is exactly 
what you are!
         An ignorant little Jewish girl!"

I'm not anti-Rand. But I love Mises to pises.


-- David.



From johnkclark at gmail.com  Thu Aug 30 17:45:26 2018
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2018 13:45:26 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Electoral College and 1177 BCE
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB4YJfKBCNtkVWjb4O0vPhBvoa6+PwMJYef+tSM68Qs=GQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB4YJfKBCNtkVWjb4O0vPhBvoa6+PwMJYef+tSM68Qs=GQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv3nOiAKgTEPOuS3pXNteDLhkOgxrDqiiGPRXTudAzqeFw@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 1:02 AM Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> wrote:

*> The only thing that keeps "war mode" turned off is rising or at
> least steady income per capita.  That's rare for any length of time in the
> past.*


With improved technology I see no reason income per capita will not
continue but that's not what determines social stability, its the gap
between the richest and the poorest.  And starting about 25 years ago all
over the world that gap started to grow and it's not just growing its
accelerating and doing so at a alarming rate. There are about 7.2 billion
people on the Earth and in  2010 the 388 richest people had as much wealth
as the  poorest half of them, that's 3.6 billion people. In 2014 it was 85.
In 2016 it was 62. In 2017 it was 8.

In the USA it is even worse, in 2017 just the 3 richest people had as much
wealth as the poorest 160 million. I don't understand how any logical
person can look at those statistics and not shudder, and I don't understand
how a logical person can expect this trend to continue for much longer
without blood in the streets. One way or another this will change.

 John K Clark
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Thu Aug 30 18:22:37 2018
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2018 13:22:37 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Electoral College and 1177 BCE
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv3nOiAKgTEPOuS3pXNteDLhkOgxrDqiiGPRXTudAzqeFw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB4YJfKBCNtkVWjb4O0vPhBvoa6+PwMJYef+tSM68Qs=GQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv3nOiAKgTEPOuS3pXNteDLhkOgxrDqiiGPRXTudAzqeFw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYRYEGT334wNpkJic2-26wvg=asmS4jPkHF3g05QUzYZQ@mail.gmail.com>

I don't understand how a logical person can expect this trend to continue
for much longer without blood in the streets. One way or another this will
change.

 John K Clark

Well, it's the way of the world, isn't it?  The big fish eat the little
fish (recollections of Ben Franklin's autobiography here).  Start a
business, do great, get bought out unless you want to be Sam Walton.

What is to stop that?

bill w

On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 12:45 PM, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 1:02 AM Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> *> The only thing that keeps "war mode" turned off is rising or at
>> least steady income per capita.  That's rare for any length of time in the
>> past.*
>
>
> With improved technology I see no reason income per capita will not
> continue but that's not what determines social stability, its the gap
> between the richest and the poorest.  And starting about 25 years ago all
> over the world that gap started to grow and it's not just growing its
> accelerating and doing so at a alarming rate. There are about 7.2 billion
> people on the Earth and in  2010 the 388 richest people had as much wealth
> as the  poorest half of them, that's 3.6 billion people. In 2014 it was 85.
> In 2016 it was 62. In 2017 it was 8.
>
> In the USA it is even worse, in 2017 just the 3 richest people had as much
> wealth as the poorest 160 million. I don't understand how any logical
> person can look at those statistics and not shudder, and I don't understand
> how a logical person can expect this trend to continue for much longer
> without blood in the streets. One way or another this will change.
>
>  John K Clark
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From sparge at gmail.com  Thu Aug 30 18:41:07 2018
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2018 14:41:07 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Electoral College and 1177 BCE
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv3nOiAKgTEPOuS3pXNteDLhkOgxrDqiiGPRXTudAzqeFw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB4YJfKBCNtkVWjb4O0vPhBvoa6+PwMJYef+tSM68Qs=GQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv3nOiAKgTEPOuS3pXNteDLhkOgxrDqiiGPRXTudAzqeFw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2cYhsXU9_EwiWTfZL6jk_GgHM3kxj8r3_wT9wViw-C=Lg@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 1:48 PM John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

>
> With improved technology I see no reason income per capita will not
> continue but that's not what determines social stability, its the gap
> between the richest and the poorest.
>

Upon what do you base that assertion? So you don't think the
standard-of-living of the poorest is a factor?

In the USA it is even worse, in 2017 just the 3 richest people had as much
> wealth as the poorest 160 million. I don't understand how any logical
> person can look at those statistics and not shudder, and I don't understand
> how a logical person can expect this trend to continue for much longer
> without blood in the streets. One way or another this will change.
>

Firstly, that's paper wealth. There's no denying that Bezos, Buffett, et
al, are hugely wealthy, but putting dollar figures on it is nontrivial.
Secondly, it makes me no poorer if my neighbor has twice as much money as I
do. Thirdly, even if you could convince me that wealth disparity is a real
problem, what's your proposed solution?

-Dave
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From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Thu Aug 30 19:23:15 2018
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2018 12:23:15 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Electoral College and 1177 BCE
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB6c9Ae=HOpO=KAihqSeKqCPaeurcd7UtEfZQrkhVmBnaQ@mail.gmail.com>

Spike <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:

> Eh, memewars don?t really wreck stuff all that much.  It just causes us to be pissed off at each other.  That can be easily enough repaired, more easily than bombed out factories, destroyed infrastructure and farmland, crippled people.  With memewars, we have the option to just stop at any time, to become a memewar non-combatant, an option I chose some time ago.

People often talk of religious wars as examples of meme wars.  But
that's putting the horse before the cart.  The origin of wars is
resources, xenophobic religious memes are the way we dehumanize people
before we kill them (and then take their young women as booty).  Pope
Urban's https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Urban_II wiki page is a
remarkably prescient presentation of evolutionary psychology.

I don't think we have an option to "stop at any time" or become a non-combatant.

The relation between memes and wars is complex.

Keith



From ben at zaiboc.net  Thu Aug 30 18:45:06 2018
From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc)
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2018 19:45:06 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Human Body redesign (Was: extropy-chat Digest, Vol 179,
 Issue 29)
In-Reply-To: <mailman.112.1535647328.6153.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.112.1535647328.6153.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <5B883B32.2050701@zaiboc.net>

BillK wrote:
> Back in June 2018 BBC TV showed a 1hr 30m documentary about
> redesigning the human body, with rather weird results.
> An article describing the redesign is here:
> <https://www.radiotimes.com/news/tv/2018-06-13/this-is-what-the-perfect-body-looks-like-according-to-science/>
>
> The film is not currently available from the BBC, but a search offers
> various download and torrent sites if you want to watch it.

That's not really what I'm talking about. First, there's no such thing 
as 'perfect', especially when applied to bodies. Second, this just 
mashes together existing features found in various animals, with little 
actual reasoning behind it. it hardly qualifies as a 'design'. Third, 
there's no mention of how this, if it was desirable, could be 
accomplished. Fourth, it's purely biological, and doesn't really 
represent much (or any) of an advance on what we have now. Fifth, 
there's no detail at all (skin that can change colour, fine. But how 
does it work? How is it controlled? How does this relate to the other 
functions of skin, etc., etc.). Sixth, there's no mention of how someone 
could actually achieve such a body, and Seven, it's basically just a 
freak show designed to get people to watch a TV programme, with very 
little actual science or engineering behind it.

Oh, and apologies for making a mess of the topic title. Again.

-- 
Ben Zaiboc



From johnkclark at gmail.com  Thu Aug 30 20:14:05 2018
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2018 16:14:05 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Electoral College and 1177 BCE
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2cYhsXU9_EwiWTfZL6jk_GgHM3kxj8r3_wT9wViw-C=Lg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB4YJfKBCNtkVWjb4O0vPhBvoa6+PwMJYef+tSM68Qs=GQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv3nOiAKgTEPOuS3pXNteDLhkOgxrDqiiGPRXTudAzqeFw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2cYhsXU9_EwiWTfZL6jk_GgHM3kxj8r3_wT9wViw-C=Lg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv1uGOnVe+7L-16dOaTojZAPZ4L62hHqJ5cZVqukYNLoXw@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 2:43 PM Dave Sill <sparge at gmail.com> wrote:

>  *it makes me no poorer if my neighbor has twice as much money as I do*


Real hourly wages in the USA peaked more than 45 years ago, in January 1973
the average person made $4.03 a hour which adjusted for inflation would be
equivalent to $23.68 worth of purchasing power today, but today the average
hourly wage is only $22.65. And yet the country is vastly wealthier than it
was in January 1973. If anybody thinks this trend can continue indefinitely
without horrific social upheaval they are deluding themselves.  I said it
before I'll say it again, one way or another *this will not stand*.

> *even if you could convince me that wealth disparity is a real problem,
> what's your proposed solution?*


I have learned something in the last few months, nobody around here really
wants me to answer that. This is not the Extropian list of old, these days
if I even attempted to address that question I would be attacked by nearly
everybody on the list and be accused of spounting heresy and making
shitposts.

 John K Clark
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From pharos at gmail.com  Thu Aug 30 20:33:59 2018
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2018 21:33:59 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Human Body redesign (Was: extropy-chat Digest, Vol 179,
 Issue 29)
In-Reply-To: <5B883B32.2050701@zaiboc.net>
References: <mailman.112.1535647328.6153.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <5B883B32.2050701@zaiboc.net>
Message-ID: <CAL_armgvyxGb26YoUOLwAiuhQd0gXVTCsQYuLec3kwbsWr-Mcw@mail.gmail.com>

On 30 August 2018 at 19:45, Ben Zaiboc  wrote:
> That's not really what I'm talking about. First, there's no such thing as
> 'perfect', especially when applied to bodies. Second, this just mashes
> together existing features found in various animals, with little actual
> reasoning behind it. it hardly qualifies as a 'design'. Third, there's no
> mention of how this, if it was desirable, could be accomplished. Fourth,
> it's purely biological, and doesn't really represent much (or any) of an
> advance on what we have now. Fifth, there's no detail at all (skin that can
> change colour, fine. But how does it work? How is it controlled? How does
> this relate to the other functions of skin, etc., etc.). Sixth, there's no
> mention of how someone could actually achieve such a body, and Seven, it's
> basically just a freak show designed to get people to watch a TV programme,
> with very little actual science or engineering behind it.
>
> Oh, and apologies for making a mess of the topic title. Again.
>

There was more detail in the 1.5 hour documentary.
Professor Roberts knows her stuff.  :)
Luckily she has written about her body improvements here:
<https://blog.sciencemuseum.org.uk/making-the-perfect-body/>

The skin colour change works the same way that the octopus species does it.
Basically she is redesigning poor bits of human evolution and also
taking the 'best' bits from other species and adapting them for use by
humans.
Her blog report explains her reasoning.

BillK


From lubkin at unreasonable.com  Thu Aug 30 20:52:04 2018
From: lubkin at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin)
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2018 16:52:04 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Electoral College and 1177 BCE
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv1uGOnVe+7L-16dOaTojZAPZ4L62hHqJ5cZVqukYNLoXw@mail.g
 mail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB4YJfKBCNtkVWjb4O0vPhBvoa6+PwMJYef+tSM68Qs=GQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv3nOiAKgTEPOuS3pXNteDLhkOgxrDqiiGPRXTudAzqeFw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2cYhsXU9_EwiWTfZL6jk_GgHM3kxj8r3_wT9wViw-C=Lg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1uGOnVe+7L-16dOaTojZAPZ4L62hHqJ5cZVqukYNLoXw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <201808302052.w7UKqKwk024588@anath.zia.io>

John Clark wrote:

>I have learned something in the last few months, nobody around here 
>really wants me to answer that. This is not the Extropian list of 
>old, these days if I even attempted to address that question I would 
>be attacked by nearly everybody on the list and be accused of 
>spounting heresy and making shitposts.

I guess that depends on your definition of old. I joined the original 
list shortly after it began in 1991, having seen the first notices on 
Usenet. The original guidelines were that we'd all done our homework 
so the discussion could take fundamentals for granted. Participants 
were presumptively minarchist or AnCap. You needn't have been but it 
was deeply frowned on to post anything that questioned that premise. 
So while we did touch on politics, sometimes stridently, it was 
within the weeds of 100/100 Nolan.

This changed, for recent values of old.


-- David.



From spike at rainier66.com  Thu Aug 30 21:12:59 2018
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2018 14:12:59 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Electoral College and 1177 BCE
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv3nOiAKgTEPOuS3pXNteDLhkOgxrDqiiGPRXTudAzqeFw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB4YJfKBCNtkVWjb4O0vPhBvoa6+PwMJYef+tSM68Qs=GQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv3nOiAKgTEPOuS3pXNteDLhkOgxrDqiiGPRXTudAzqeFw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <006f01d440a6$3b47b150$b1d713f0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of John Clark
Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2018 10:45 AM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: Re: [ExI] Electoral College and 1177 BCE

 

On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 1:02 AM Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com <mailto:hkeithhenson at gmail.com> > wrote:

 

>> ?The only thing that keeps "war mode" turned off is rising or at least steady income per capita.  That's rare for any length of time in the past.

 

>?With improved technology I see no reason income per capita will not continue but that's not what determines social stability, its the gap between the richest and the poorest?  John K Clark

 

 

Eh, I have heard that argument and mostly discount it.  If the lower classes are doing pretty well and improving, it becomes more and more irrelevant how rich the top end gets.  We don?t really even know, other than a reality show often devoured by the lower classes called ?Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous.?

Eh, I never watched it, but from what I have seen, the super rich get along fine with the lower classes.  I see no bitterness there, nothing coming even close to motivating them to storm the Bastille.  They do need jobs however, and the scene there might be improving for now.

spike

 

 

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